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1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-01T04:14:12Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T04:19:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T04:22:52Z jasom: I think it might be time for me to start interning names in this program: 3,646,623,280 bytes for 29,236,425 simple-character-string objects. 2016-10-01T04:23:16Z jasom: there should be on the order of 4000 unique strings in that 2016-10-01T04:28:19Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-01T04:29:54Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-01T04:31:55Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T04:38:31Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-01T04:38:36Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-01T04:39:31Z shifty779 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T04:43:35Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-01T04:50:41Z burtons joined #lisp 2016-10-01T04:50:54Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T04:56:02Z burtons is now known as kruhft 2016-10-01T04:57:53Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T05:03:28Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T05:05:29Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T05:05:30Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-01T05:13:06Z beaky quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-10-01T05:16:25Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T05:20:03Z sellout-1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T05:20:21Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2016-10-01T05:20:37Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-01T05:27:06Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-01T05:30:37Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-01T05:32:55Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-01T05:38:25Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T05:42:15Z eli quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T05:45:24Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T05:47:16Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T05:47:50Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-01T05:47:54Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T05:49:01Z kruhft quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-01T05:50:00Z cpc26_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T05:56:00Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:02:53Z eli joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:04:58Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-01T06:13:54Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:15:09Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T06:16:25Z easye: Top of the mornin' to ya, beach. 2016-10-01T06:20:08Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:20:52Z adolf_stalin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-01T06:21:15Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:23:19Z troydm: /g/go libre 2016-10-01T06:23:24Z troydm: ups sorry 2016-10-01T06:23:30Z troydm: wrong window 2016-10-01T06:24:55Z easye: If it is Windows, it ain't very Libre... 2016-10-01T06:30:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: pft 2016-10-01T06:36:30Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T06:39:05Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:39:57Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T06:41:15Z FDXZ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:43:03Z FDXZ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T06:43:07Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T06:43:44Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:44:30Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:47:10Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:51:29Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:51:51Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:51:53Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T06:53:36Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T06:55:06Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T06:57:10Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T07:01:18Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T07:02:25Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:02:35Z Naraka quit (Quit: Naraka) 2016-10-01T07:02:43Z Naraka joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:03:18Z ozzloy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-01T07:04:12Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:04:23Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:07:05Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T07:08:04Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-01T07:08:29Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:10:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T07:13:35Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:14:54Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:15:58Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T07:21:57Z josteink joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:23:02Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:23:33Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T07:24:01Z jostein quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-01T07:29:05Z myrkraverk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-01T07:30:27Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:32:58Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:34:55Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-01T07:44:30Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:47:28Z phoe: Morning. 2016-10-01T07:47:45Z phoe: jasom: interning names? 2016-10-01T07:48:00Z phoe: I guess your implementation doesn't coalesce strings, then. 2016-10-01T07:48:17Z phoe: Unless, uh. 2016-10-01T07:48:28Z phoe: You somehow amassed 3G of strings that are not coalescable. 2016-10-01T07:50:18Z heurist joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:50:31Z Bike: or they're not literal objects 2016-10-01T07:52:59Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-01T07:54:29Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:02:47Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T08:04:06Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:06:55Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T08:09:30Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T08:10:09Z Naraka quit (Quit: Naraka) 2016-10-01T08:10:29Z Naraka joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:10:40Z Naraka quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-01T08:11:08Z Naraka joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:11:09Z zagura joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:12:19Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T08:12:58Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T08:13:15Z Grue```: lisp strings are mutable, so no implementation should coalescen them 2016-10-01T08:16:24Z nostoi joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:23:46Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:24:10Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:27:04Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T08:32:50Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:35:49Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:35:54Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:38:34Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:39:30Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:40:49Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:42:31Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-01T08:43:03Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-01T08:43:06Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T08:45:11Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-01T08:49:41Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T08:54:03Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-01T08:56:14Z phoe: Grue```: even literal strings? 2016-10-01T08:57:27Z phoe: jasom mentioned ~4000 unique strings 2016-10-01T08:57:43Z phoe: which means there's hell of duplicates in there. 2016-10-01T08:59:40Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-01T09:00:59Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T09:01:39Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend.) 2016-10-01T09:05:09Z Grue```: literal strings are also mutable, not that they *should* be mutated 2016-10-01T09:05:26Z Bike: they are not. mutating them is undefined, so that the compiler can coalesce them. 2016-10-01T09:05:53Z Bike: but that doesn't matter because j was probably not talking about literal strings. 2016-10-01T09:06:07Z cpc26_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T09:08:22Z Grue```: (defun test () (let ((x "asdf") (y "asdf")) (setf (char x 0) #\q) (list x y))) 2016-10-01T09:08:43Z Bike: it does a thing but what that thing is is not defined by the standard. 2016-10-01T09:08:50Z Grue```: I get a warning on SBCL, but otherwise it only affects x 2016-10-01T09:09:25Z Grue```: there's some self-modifying code potential here 2016-10-01T09:09:41Z Grue``` is now known as Grue`` 2016-10-01T09:11:21Z plops joined #lisp 2016-10-01T09:11:21Z mk2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-01T09:12:16Z Bike: put (defvar *foo* "test") (defvar *bar* "test") in a file, compile file and load, (setf (char *foo* 0) #\q), then *bar* => "qest" 2016-10-01T09:12:28Z Bike: or => "test", or => "quit doing that", who knows 2016-10-01T09:14:33Z beach: Luckily, the Common Lisp language is not defined by what a particular implementation does. 2016-10-01T09:15:09Z Bike quit (Quit: at will) 2016-10-01T09:22:50Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-01T09:22:53Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-01T09:23:17Z beaky joined #lisp 2016-10-01T09:23:38Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-01T09:37:49Z QwertyDragon quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T09:40:51Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-01T09:53:15Z attila_lendvai 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#lisp 2016-10-01T10:38:26Z beaky: ello is there a comon lisp c ffi as easy to use as clojure's java ffi (where you just go (import 'org.example.X) and automagically get methods); maybe like (cffi:include "stdio.h") and get to automagically do (printf "%s\n" "hello") 2016-10-01T10:39:00Z frug72 left #lisp 2016-10-01T10:41:30Z H4ns: no. 2016-10-01T10:46:34Z spacebat` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T10:48:37Z beaky: :< 2016-10-01T10:49:03Z vauban joined #lisp 2016-10-01T10:55:16Z attila_lendvai: I think cffi/c2ffi is one of the closest to that. an example: https://github.com/attila-lendvai/hu.dwim.sdl 2016-10-01T10:55:42Z attila_lendvai: but I guess it's still more trouble than clojure 2016-10-01T11:00:30Z plops quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T11:07:39Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T11:07:43Z cpc26 quit (Changing host) 2016-10-01T11:07:43Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T11:11:12Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-10-01T11:14:32Z grouzen joined #lisp 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2016-10-01T12:12:14Z beaky: (and most modern developments just feels like reinvented versions of past-century ideas) 2016-10-01T12:15:01Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-01T12:15:25Z gko__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-01T12:21:04Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-01T12:21:07Z dyelar quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-01T12:23:11Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T12:23:36Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T12:24:12Z pierpa: rdbms in the 80s were in their infancy 2016-10-01T12:27:39Z phoe: beaky: if you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it 2016-10-01T12:28:06Z easye: phoe: twice. The second time as farce. 2016-10-01T12:28:23Z phoe: easye: no, not twice. many more times. 2016-10-01T12:28:25Z beaky: yes that is why we have things like the cloud (the reinvention of mainframes), and mongodb (the reinvention of IMS) 2016-10-01T12:28:29Z phoe: we wouldn't have Java if what you said was true. 2016-10-01T12:28:45Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T12:28:49Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T12:28:55Z raydeejay: "the cloud" is just giving your stuff to someone else 2016-10-01T12:29:09Z raydeejay: and Java... lol 2016-10-01T12:29:45Z phoe: every well-designed and working piece of code is replaceable by enough Java classes. 2016-10-01T12:29:47Z raydeejay: I claim that Java is actually proof of what he's saying 2016-10-01T12:29:48Z beaky: ye clojure was what i've always hoped java would be from the beginning (a "write once, run everywhere! lisp") 2016-10-01T12:30:05Z phoe: if it doesn't work, double the amount. 2016-10-01T12:30:18Z phoe: raydeejay: if Java is farce, then what is C# then? 2016-10-01T12:30:40Z raydeejay: um 2016-10-01T12:30:41Z phoe: s/then// 2016-10-01T12:30:48Z easye: A less portable farce? 2016-10-01T12:30:55Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-01T12:30:58Z raydeejay: neither Java nor C# seems particularly comic to me, I would them rubbish 2016-10-01T12:31:00Z raydeejay: not farce 2016-10-01T12:31:09Z raydeejay: the same rubbish, at any rate :) 2016-10-01T12:31:10Z easye: The JVM is seriously interesting as a platform, especially over where the CLR runs. 2016-10-01T12:31:24Z phoe: The JVM as a virtual machine is pretty nice. 2016-10-01T12:31:34Z phoe: The language it uses is ugly though. 2016-10-01T12:31:39Z pipping apparently joined #java by accident 2016-10-01T12:31:45Z raydeejay: since they brought in Smalltalk people, years ago, to make it non-crappy? perhaps 2016-10-01T12:31:48Z easye is a really happy implementor in using the JVM for ABCL's GC. 2016-10-01T12:31:52Z raydeejay pities pipping 2016-10-01T12:32:24Z phoe: Oracle's JVM has pretty nice GCs. 2016-10-01T12:32:27Z pipping: raydeejay: never mind, turns out it actually says #lisp at the top. odd. 2016-10-01T12:32:38Z phoe: pipping: XD 2016-10-01T12:32:44Z easye nods to pipping. 2016-10-01T12:32:58Z easye: Yes it does say Lisp. 2016-10-01T12:33:09Z phoe: Okay. 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Did I configure djula wrong or is this a bug? 2016-10-01T14:36:43Z knobo: Looks like there is no seperate channel for djula. Maybe lispweb would be better. 2016-10-01T14:37:19Z beach: It's OK. I just had never heard of it, there was nothing in the #lisp logs about it, and the syntax didn't look like Common Lisp. 2016-10-01T14:37:30Z beach: But I found it now, and I see that it has to do with Common Lisp. 2016-10-01T14:39:14Z edgar-rft is wearing djula jewelry right now 2016-10-01T14:39:57Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T14:40:48Z joga quit (Changing host) 2016-10-01T14:40:48Z joga joined #lisp 2016-10-01T14:48:56Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-01T14:54:34Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T14:55:24Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-10-01T14:55:26Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-10-01T14:57:52Z pierpa: I thought this was a bug: https://bpaste.net/show/bed6341bb10c and was reporting it as such. Before sending I tohught better to try it on different implemenations. Of the 4 implementations I have at hand, 2 returns that result, and 2 return "q q". Opinions? 2016-10-01T14:58:20Z pierpa: please forgive the atrocious spelling :) 2016-10-01T15:04:32Z beach: q q looks right to me. 2016-10-01T15:05:05Z pierpa: I owuld have thought the same 2016-10-01T15:05:38Z pierpa: it's the 2-2 score that surprised me :) 2016-10-01T15:06:01Z beach: In the two implementations that give "#1=a #1#", what happens when you evaluate (length "#1=a #1#")? 2016-10-01T15:06:59Z pierpa: 8, both in ccl and in acl 2016-10-01T15:07:13Z beach: So it is both wrong and inconsistent. 2016-10-01T15:07:35Z pierpa: why inconsistent? 2016-10-01T15:07:43Z beach: Oh, no wait. Forget what I said. 2016-10-01T15:07:54Z pierpa: forgotten. 2016-10-01T15:08:03Z beach: Now I am thinking that it is correct. 2016-10-01T15:08:09Z pierpa: hmmm 2016-10-01T15:08:15Z raydeejay scratches head 2016-10-01T15:08:18Z pierpa: what's your reasoning? 2016-10-01T15:08:21Z raydeejay: isn't that a regular string? 2016-10-01T15:08:29Z pierpa: yes, it is 2016-10-01T15:08:42Z beach: But it's the control string in the example, which I failed to see. 2016-10-01T15:08:46Z beach: Too tired I guess. 2016-10-01T15:09:02Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T15:09:06Z pierpa: but the circular notation should not be applyable in this case, I think 2016-10-01T15:09:44Z beach: Maybe so. It is only valid within a single call to READ. 2016-10-01T15:10:10Z beach: So you can't read that back. 2016-10-01T15:10:24Z pierpa: and even is the string is read-from-string'ed it would be two reads... 2016-10-01T15:10:24Z pidu joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:10:27Z pierpa: yes 2016-10-01T15:10:33Z beach: Right. 2016-10-01T15:10:55Z beach: So, I think it is wrong, but for a different reason than I incorrectly thought at first. 2016-10-01T15:11:16Z pierpa: hmmm 2016-10-01T15:11:51Z pierpa: for the record, the "q q" implementation are SBCL and LW, the others are CCL and ACL 2016-10-01T15:11:58Z pierpa: *implementations 2016-10-01T15:13:26Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:13:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:13:36Z beach: ECL gives "q q" as well. 2016-10-01T15:13:44Z pierpa: 3-2! 2016-10-01T15:14:00Z knobo: if "#1=q #1#" is the correct result, I have to consider a job without computers involved. 2016-10-01T15:14:39Z pierpa: :) 2016-10-01T15:19:13Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:21:07Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:22:40Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:23:37Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T15:24:32Z titankiller quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T15:24:54Z pierpa: clhs 22.3 Formatted Output does not say anything resolutive, IMHO. 2016-10-01T15:25:53Z test joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:26:16Z test is now known as Guest22816 2016-10-01T15:27:37Z jackdaniel: so ECL does the right thing? 2016-10-01T15:28:10Z Guest22816 left #lisp 2016-10-01T15:31:13Z pierpa: In my and beach's opinion, yes. 2016-10-01T15:31:36Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:32:49Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T15:33:43Z knobo: (let ((*print-circle* t) (name "q")) (format t "~a" `(,name ,name))) 2016-10-01T15:34:22Z knobo: or (let ((*print-circle* t) (name "q")) (format t "~a" (vector name name))) 2016-10-01T15:34:37Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T15:35:50Z knobo: print-circle: Controls the attempt to detect circularity and sharing in an object being printed. 2016-10-01T15:35:56Z edgar-rft: AFAIK *PRINT-CIRCLE* not only controls printing of circularity, but also detection of shared data structures, and printing tho times the same string object (in the sense of EQ) *is* a shared data struvture. 2016-10-01T15:35:58Z pierpa: this case is different 2016-10-01T15:36:37Z pierpa: you are printing a whole data structure with one directive 2016-10-01T15:37:07Z pierpa: so, it's expected that it obeys *print-circle* setting 2016-10-01T15:37:50Z knobo: (format t "~a" name name) is the same object two times, not one object as in "an object" 2016-10-01T15:37:57Z knobo: as the clhs says 2016-10-01T15:38:22Z pierpa: also, the purpose of *print-circle* is to allow to read back the structure preserving the original sharings, which in my case does not work 2016-10-01T15:40:08Z edgar-rft: where is written that the purpose of *print-circle* is to allow to read back the structure preserving the original sharings? (in the meaning of "maybe I'm stupid and just simply don't know") 2016-10-01T15:40:29Z pierpa: hmmm 2016-10-01T15:40:32Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:40:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:40:47Z pierpa: what other purpose could it have? 2016-10-01T15:40:58Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:41:49Z spacebat` joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:42:05Z edgar-rft: to detect circularity or shared data structures in debugging situations or just simply to prevent the printer to get stuck in an infinite loop when trying to print recursive data structures 2016-10-01T15:43:32Z pierpa: ok, also to produce a more compact representation in case of sharing, even if we are not interestedin preserving the sharing... 2016-10-01T15:44:26Z edgar-rft: I'm just trying to test if reading back in works or not, may take a few minutes... 2016-10-01T15:44:32Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-01T15:45:04Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:45:05Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:46:14Z pierpa: (defun smoke (n) (if (zerop n) 'smoke (let ((s (smoke (1- n)))) (cons s s)))) 2016-10-01T15:46:43Z pierpa: try printing and reading back (smoke 40) with *PRINT-CIRCLE* T and then NIL :) 2016-10-01T15:47:44Z varjagg joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:47:54Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T15:48:03Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-10-01T15:48:04Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-01T15:48:05Z spacebat` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-01T15:49:13Z Ven_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-01T15:52:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T15:55:06Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T15:55:10Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T15:57:14Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-01T15:59:58Z varjagg is now known as varjag 2016-10-01T16:01:22Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:04:18Z spacebat` joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:05:21Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T16:07:38Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:08:17Z edgar-rft: pierpa: today everything takes longer than expected (with or without Hofstaedter), but here are the SBCL rsults: 2016-10-01T16:08:41Z spacebat` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-01T16:09:00Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:09:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T16:10:05Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-01T16:10:55Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-01T16:11:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:13:15Z pierpa: edgar-rft: ok. All as expected. 2016-10-01T16:13:41Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:14:12Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:16:20Z edgar-rft: also (read-from-string "#1=q #1#") => "Q" ; only one Q because it's two times the same (EQ) string object 2016-10-01T16:16:46Z pierpa: hmmm 2016-10-01T16:17:17Z pierpa: it returns one Q, because it reads only "#1=q" and ignores the rest 2016-10-01T16:17:35Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-01T16:18:15Z pierpa: if you read the rest you'll get an error, as "#1#" is a syntax error. 2016-10-01T16:19:12Z edgar-rft: that's true, see (read-from-string "#1=q #1# x") => Q ; I was wrong 2016-10-01T16:20:12Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:20:24Z pierpa: if you look at the second result of READ-FROM-STRING, you'll see until what index it has read 2016-10-01T16:20:41Z pierpa: *at the second valure returned by READ-FROM-STRING 2016-10-01T16:20:46Z edgar-rft: don't expect me to have a brain :( 2016-10-01T16:20:46Z pierpa: *value 2016-10-01T16:20:47Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:20:52Z pierpa: :) 2016-10-01T16:21:44Z pierpa: (read-from-string "123 foo") ==> 123 4 2016-10-01T16:21:54Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-01T16:22:06Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T16:23:04Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:23:06Z pierpa: if you want to read from the rest of the string you do (READ-FROM-STRING "123 foo" :START 4) 2016-10-01T16:23:21Z pierpa: no, this is wrong :( 2016-10-01T16:23:39Z pierpa: if you want to read from the rest of the string you do (READ-FROM-STRING "123 foo" NIL NIL :START 4) 2016-10-01T16:24:51Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:25:02Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-01T16:29:42Z NitroWheels left #lisp 2016-10-01T16:29:53Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T16:30:26Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T16:30:34Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:30:53Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-01T16:31:33Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:31:40Z edgar-rft: pierpa: I think I have found a better example for preservation of shared data structures: 2016-10-01T16:33:13Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:33:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-01T16:36:26Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:38:25Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T16:39:27Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T16:40:37Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:46:22Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:47:13Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T16:47:19Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:47:31Z pierpa: wrt *print-circle*, gbyers pointed out http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1082 2016-10-01T16:47:32Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-01T16:48:04Z freedom010 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:48:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:48:29Z le4fy joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:48:49Z pierpa: edgar-rft: yes, that's a good example 2016-10-01T16:49:26Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-01T16:52:47Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:53:33Z AlphaAtom quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T16:55:56Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:57:08Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-01T16:59:18Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2016-10-01T17:03:41Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-01T17:09:23Z shifty779 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T17:12:46Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-01T17:14:47Z boomer quit (Changing host) 2016-10-01T17:14:47Z boomer joined #lisp 2016-10-01T17:15:21Z boomer is now known as bitch 2016-10-01T17:19:52Z edgar-rft: pierpa: sorry, was away for a few minutes, I think this is a edge-case in the specification, I will try to find more and better examples 2016-10-01T17:19:54Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-01T17:20:55Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-01T17:21:23Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-01T17:22:24Z lisp458 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T17:22:48Z lisp458: greetings 2016-10-01T17:23:36Z klltkr: Hello 2016-10-01T17:25:19Z trn quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-01T17:27:03Z aptenodyte joined #lisp 2016-10-01T17:40:12Z lisp458: is haskell hard for a beginner programmer 2016-10-01T17:41:12Z varjag: ask on #haskell? 2016-10-01T17:44:54Z aptenodyte quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T17:47:01Z lisp458: will do 2016-10-01T17:47:12Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-01T17:51:12Z lisp458 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-01T17:55:41Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-01T17:56:51Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-10-01T17:57:50Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: hi 2016-10-01T17:59:04Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-01T18:02:07Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T18:02:13Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T18:13:35Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-01T18:18:39Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T18:19:17Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T18:20:12Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-01T18:22:42Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T18:23:40Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-01T18:24:07Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-10-01T18:24:08Z ovenpasta quit (Quit: ovenpasta) 2016-10-01T18:25:37Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-01T18:26:33Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-01T18:26:45Z aptenodyte joined #lisp 2016-10-01T18:27:20Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-01T18:37:29Z aptenodyte quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-01T18:39:50Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T18:42:26Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2016-10-01T18:42:26Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2016-10-01T18:42:26Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2016-10-01T18:43:14Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-01T18:53:53Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-01T18:54:54Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-01T18:56:46Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T18:56:57Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-01T18:58:04Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-01T18:58:58Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-01T19:10:42Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T19:11:21Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T19:14:27Z aptenodyte joined #lisp 2016-10-01T19:19:50Z freedom010 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-01T19:19:59Z aptenodyte quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-01T19:24:29Z puchacz: hello, have you ever get many timeouts from usocket from something like this? (progn (drakma:http-request "http://lisp.org/") nil) 2016-10-01T19:24:47Z puchacz: strange because I did not update any library and drakma used to work like a charm 2016-10-01T19:26:17Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-01T19:26:19Z puchacz: it is working in 50% cases roughly now 2016-10-01T19:33:48Z antonv: puchacz: what lisp? 2016-10-01T19:34:01Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-01T19:34:20Z nf7 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T19:35:00Z puchacz: antonv: sbcl. I found something on the web about clisp 2016-10-01T19:35:12Z antonv: yes, i thought about clisp 2016-10-01T19:35:16Z puchacz: btw, after say 30 minutes of problematic behaviour now it seems ok........ 2016-10-01T19:35:36Z nf7: Hi, I'm trying to understand how to run a function over every item of a list... Would it be something like... (map function (list "a" "b" "c")) ? 2016-10-01T19:35:38Z puchacz: even stranger, when sbcl was misbehaving, chromium had no problem accessing this page 2016-10-01T19:36:00Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T19:36:05Z Bike: nf7: mapcar, or (map 'list function (list ...)) 2016-10-01T19:36:07Z antonv: puchacz: i have no idea, sorry 2016-10-01T19:36:10Z Bike: nf7: if you don't want the results back you can use mapc 2016-10-01T19:36:17Z puchacz: antonv: no problem 2016-10-01T19:37:20Z nf7: Bike: Hmmm ok let me try that. 2016-10-01T19:37:36Z Bike: nf7: try looking up the functions in the clhs 2016-10-01T19:37:38Z Bike: clhs map 2016-10-01T19:37:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm 2016-10-01T19:37:49Z Bike: complete with examples and such 2016-10-01T19:38:33Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-10-01T19:39:58Z nf7: Bike: Perfect, thanks for that! 2016-10-01T19:41:08Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T19:44:35Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T19:46:41Z ggole_ quit 2016-10-01T19:48:59Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T19:49:09Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-01T19:49:25Z Grue``: sometimes the best method is (loop for item in list do (function item)) 2016-10-01T19:52:19Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-10-01T19:52:23Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-01T19:54:55Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T20:03:23Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-01T20:04:14Z nf7 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-01T20:05:15Z vapid joined #lisp 2016-10-01T20:08:42Z aindilis2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T20:09:23Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-01T20:09:44Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T20:09:49Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-01T20:12:04Z vapid is now known as soros_gyurka 2016-10-01T20:14:27Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T20:21:50Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-01T20:22:05Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-01T20:33:08Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T20:35:42Z PuercoPop: ebrasca: hi! sorry I got to run. I'm still working on finishing screen-saver-select-input to serve as an example. 2016-10-01T20:38:08Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T20:42:04Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-01T20:49:59Z knobo: edgar-rft: if you want to read back the output from a string, you have to make it with ~s, not ~a 2016-10-01T20:50:54Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T20:51:36Z edgar-rft: knobo: taht's true (and I already realized it), but nontheless SBCL reads back shared structures as separate structures 2016-10-01T20:53:36Z edgar-rft: knobo: for example 2016-10-01T20:55:12Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T20:57:23Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T20:59:39Z edgar-rft: But the problem is that there seems to be no place in the ANSI spec that says that with a *print-circle* value of T, the CL print-functions *are required* to print shared data structures in a way that they can be read back as shared data structures. 2016-10-01T21:00:15Z soros_gyurka is now known as vapid 2016-10-01T21:01:04Z Bike: it doesn't do it with strings but it should do it with most things, i think... 2016-10-01T21:02:54Z Bike: wait. it does it for strings too. you just print the object twice. 2016-10-01T21:04:36Z edgar-rft: and if you read it back *two* strings are allocated where in the original code two times *one* string object was printed 2016-10-01T21:04:39Z Bike: (let ((cons (read-from-string (write-to-string (let ((x "q")) (cons x x)) :circle t)))) (eq (car cons) (cdr cons))) => T. 2016-10-01T21:05:21Z Bike: format doesn't do circularity. the individual print calls it does, one for each ~s, do. 2016-10-01T21:06:07Z Bike: if you did (format nil "~s" (cons q q)) it would do what you want as well. 2016-10-01T21:06:31Z saff joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:07:10Z aptenodyte joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:07:46Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:08:03Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:09:01Z edgar-rft: no, it doesn't, and clhs *print-circle* says: "using write, prin1, princ, or format...", so format is expected to print shared structures in #n# syntax 2016-10-01T21:09:40Z Bike: but you don't have a shared structure. you have the same structure twice. 2016-10-01T21:09:43Z Ven_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-01T21:10:10Z Bike: (let ((*print-circle* t) (q "q")) (format t "~s" (cons q q))) => (#1="q" . #1#) 2016-10-01T21:10:13Z Bike: that's what you want, no? 2016-10-01T21:12:54Z edgar-rft: as usual you're right, now it does, I assume because the CONS was created *before* it was printed by FORMAT? 2016-10-01T21:13:13Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean. what were you doing that didn't do this? 2016-10-01T21:14:00Z edgar-rft: exactly that's what I'm trying to find out at the moment, few seconds please... 2016-10-01T21:15:25Z Bike: i mean, if it's your paste, that doesn't have a cons. 2016-10-01T21:15:41Z edgar-rft: Yes, Edgar's code (format t "(~s . ~s)" q q)) doesn't work, Bike's code (format t "~s" (cons q q)) does work. 2016-10-01T21:16:35Z edgar-rft: It's because the CONS cell in Bike's code was created by (cons q q) *before* it was printed by FORMAT 2016-10-01T21:17:10Z Bike: well, it's more than that. your code doesn't even involve a cons. that format expands to something like (write-string "(") (prin1 q) (write-string " . ") (prin1 q) (write-string ")") 2016-10-01T21:17:32Z Bike: (as you can see from (macroexpand-1 '(formatter "(~s . ~s)")), though it won't be clear on some implementations) 2016-10-01T21:19:21Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:21:29Z edgar-rft: In other words with my code FORMAT doesn't create a CONS, it just prints two times the same object with some parens and a dot in CONS syntax, so it can't see that the resulting CONS would contain a shared data structure. 2016-10-01T21:21:45Z Bike: right, exactly. 2016-10-01T21:22:06Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:22:16Z aptenodyte quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-01T21:22:23Z edgar-rft: Thank you for making me learn something :-) 2016-10-01T21:22:28Z Bike: there's no guarantee that format output is even readable, like, "[~s)" is a fine format string too 2016-10-01T21:24:10Z edgar-rft: maybe we should complain about that to all CL impelementors next :-) 2016-10-01T21:26:00Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:28:23Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:28:42Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T21:29:38Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-01T21:31:28Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T21:36:01Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-01T21:37:12Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:37:12Z manuel__ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-01T21:38:19Z DrewSharo joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:38:27Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-01T21:38:30Z DrewSharo: Why Lisp failed? 2016-10-01T21:38:50Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:39:14Z Xach: ran out of disk space on server 2016-10-01T21:39:19Z Xach: delete some files and try again 2016-10-01T21:39:26Z DrewSharo: Why Lisp failed? 2016-10-01T21:39:34Z Bike: to get to the other side 2016-10-01T21:39:53Z Xach: that is i think an appropriate time to trot out "begging the question" 2016-10-01T21:40:03Z Ven_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-01T21:40:03Z le4fy quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-01T21:40:35Z DrewSharo: Why Lisp failed and languages such Python success? 2016-10-01T21:41:18Z edgar-rft: why did you fail to learn english? 2016-10-01T21:41:51Z Xach: that is a bit unkind 2016-10-01T21:42:01Z DrewSharo: edgar-rft, Why did you fail to fuck youself? 2016-10-01T21:42:08Z DrewSharo: *yourself 2016-10-01T21:42:16Z edgar-rft: because my dick is too short 2016-10-01T21:42:27Z Xach: edgar-rft: come on. 2016-10-01T21:42:54Z edgar-rft: is that Gavino or what? 2016-10-01T21:43:05Z Xach: DrewSharo: this channel is for discussing common lisp, which has not failed. if you want to discuss that, try somewhere else 2016-10-01T21:44:45Z DrewSharo: Xach, 90% of 100 people use C-derived languages but 3% use Lisp-derived languages. So I am gonna ask this one more time, why did Common Lisp and all other Lisps fail? 2016-10-01T21:45:39Z varjag: and if we don't answer, you do what 2016-10-01T21:46:06Z edgar-rft: I very much doubt that 93 of 100 people know how to prigram computers 2016-10-01T21:46:19Z edgar-rft: *program 2016-10-01T21:46:20Z DrewSharo: Xach, varjag, edgar-rft (aka short dick), have you ever saw a success application that were written in a Lisp language?? 2016-10-01T21:46:36Z vapid is now known as xen3 2016-10-01T21:46:53Z varjag: no, because it's clearly not possible 2016-10-01T21:47:14Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T21:47:17Z manuel__ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-01T21:47:19Z DrewSharo: varjag, it is not possible to build a successful (commercial) program in Lisp? 2016-10-01T21:47:23Z varjag: of course not 2016-10-01T21:47:29Z DeadTrickster: heh 2016-10-01T21:48:27Z varjag: or wait, did i break your punchline 2016-10-01T21:48:28Z DrewSharo: Well, then, I have to say that I was totally right. Lisp is a loser. 2016-10-01T21:48:28Z varjag: sorry 2016-10-01T21:48:48Z varjag: you is totally right 2016-10-01T21:48:52Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:54Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:54Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:55Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:55Z DeadTrickster: all lisps are loosers 2016-10-01T21:48:55Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:55Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:55Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:56Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:56Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:56Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:57Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:57Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:58Z DrewSharo: v 2016-10-01T21:48:58Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:59Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:48:59Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:49:00Z DrewSharo: Lisp is a loser 2016-10-01T21:49:00Z DrewSharo: v 2016-10-01T21:49:00Z DrewSharo quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2016-10-01T21:49:13Z DeadTrickster: hmm 2016-10-01T21:49:17Z varjag: people have strange fetishes 2016-10-01T21:49:19Z Bike: actually copy pasting? man. 2016-10-01T21:49:34Z DeadTrickster: Saturday evening gone right 2016-10-01T21:50:49Z knobo: Depends of what successful means. I only saw one successful program. But I don't remember what it was. But I think it was written in fortran. 2016-10-01T21:52:31Z knobo: no, it was amos basic. 2016-10-01T21:52:36Z xen3: i am a post-ironic attack helicopter 2016-10-01T21:53:00Z xen3: i only write java ironically 2016-10-01T21:53:16Z varjag: who writes java in 2016 2016-10-01T21:53:20Z varjag: it's js all the way down 2016-10-01T21:53:43Z varjag: i even seen a network switch programmed in node 2016-10-01T21:55:10Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-01T21:58:04Z JuanDaugherty: prolly should qualify as "stayed in lisp" 2016-10-01T21:58:10Z JuanDaugherty: like conceptnet iirc 2016-10-01T21:58:47Z JuanDaugherty: *should be qualified 2016-10-01T22:05:42Z aptenodyte joined #lisp 2016-10-01T22:10:08Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T22:15:30Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T22:18:28Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T22:22:06Z aptenodyte quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-01T22:23:41Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T22:24:09Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T22:27:33Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-01T22:29:06Z megalography joined #lisp 2016-10-01T22:29:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: How do you guys get asdf to find your projects? 2016-10-01T22:29:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm getting tired of typing (push asdf:*central-registry* ...) 2016-10-01T22:30:27Z Bike: put them in local-projects 2016-10-01T22:32:21Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T22:36:03Z NeverDie_ quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-01T22:37:22Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-10-01T22:39:02Z aptenodyte joined #lisp 2016-10-01T22:41:14Z dim: either that or setup ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/*.conf 2016-10-01T22:41:33Z dim: I have e.g. (:tree (:home "dev/CL/")) in there, so anything I had to that place is going to be found 2016-10-01T22:41:54Z dim: (asdf:initialize-source-registry) is still needed to prune the cache 2016-10-01T22:42:21Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T22:45:29Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-01T22:45:32Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-01T22:48:49Z jasom: phoe: they are read from files, so not literals. 2016-10-01T22:50:02Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-01T22:51:15Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-01T22:52:04Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-01T22:54:20Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-01T22:54:51Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-01T23:00:56Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-01T23:02:28Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2016-10-01T23:04:08Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T23:04:10Z knobo: in local-time, how do I get the offset of a timezone? 2016-10-01T23:05:24Z jokleinn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T23:05:38Z jokleinn1 joined #lisp 2016-10-01T23:06:20Z knobo: hmm... that will not help me... 2016-10-01T23:09:20Z knobo: How can I parse a date like this: "YYYY-MM-DD", when there is no timestamp only date, in local time. 2016-10-01T23:15:52Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-01T23:16:41Z knobo: I want to get back a timestamp that says: "YYYY-MM-DDT00:00:00+ZZ:ZZ" where ZZ:ZZ is my timezone offset at that time. Depending on summertime or not. 2016-10-01T23:17:24Z knobo: So for Norway it's +2 hours in the summer and +1 in winter. 2016-10-01T23:18:56Z knobo: I wish Naggum was here to tell us. 2016-10-01T23:20:14Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-01T23:20:31Z saff quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T23:21:38Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-01T23:23:17Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-01T23:23:22Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-01T23:25:01Z saff joined #lisp 2016-10-01T23:26:55Z steventog: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-10-01T23:30:15Z seg joined #lisp 2016-10-01T23:36:06Z knobo: This is so dificult, that I think I'll just leave the job to postgresql. 2016-10-01T23:42:53Z saff left #lisp 2016-10-01T23:43:14Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-01T23:45:51Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-01T23:45:52Z knobo: select TIMESTAMP '2016-12-01' at time zone 'America/Aruba'; does what I want. 2016-10-01T23:46:57Z knobo: it returns: 2016-12-01 05:00:00+01, which is what the time is in my tz, when it is 00:00 in America/Aruba 2016-10-01T23:51:37Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-01T23:55:21Z aptenodyte quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-02T00:01:32Z knobo: Maybe there is a c library I could use. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-02T05:12:39Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-02T05:15:26Z sexygayboi joined #lisp 2016-10-02T05:18:01Z sexygayboi: re. 2016-10-02T05:19:34Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T05:26:11Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-02T05:35:42Z myrkraverk: Ok, cryptopals 1.1 half-done. I've decoded the hex. 2016-10-02T05:36:43Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-02T05:37:49Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-02T05:39:27Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-02T05:39:48Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T05:40:14Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-02T05:42:08Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-02T05:43:04Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-02T05:43:18Z nf7 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-02T05:44:58Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-02T05:45:10Z sexygayboi: myrkraverk: what is cryptopals? 2016-10-02T05:45:21Z myrkraverk: http://cryptopals.com/sets/1/challenges/1 2016-10-02T05:45:57Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-02T05:46:21Z myrkraverk: For the record, Lisp is not my favorite language for bit manipulation, but I'm currently too lazy to figure out a different syntax and create macros. 2016-10-02T05:47:50Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-02T05:47:51Z easye: myrkraverk: I find it hard to adjust to CL byte manipulation but like everything else in ANSI CL it is remarkably well thought out, and repays studying the HyperSpec sections on LDB and friends. 2016-10-02T05:48:40Z Bike: (parse-integer blabla :radix 16) doesn't work? i don't really understand that "raw bytes" restriction, that makes it seem like you shouldn't have to parse hex to begin with. 2016-10-02T05:49:10Z myrkraverk: Bike: I guess the point is to teach byte manipulation, and stuff. 2016-10-02T05:49:20Z Bike: no, i mean i don't understand what it means. 2016-10-02T05:49:39Z myrkraverk: I think it means I should use an intermediary raw byte buffer. Which is what I"m doing. 2016-10-02T05:50:56Z Arathnim: Octets, an array of (unsigned-byte 8) 2016-10-02T05:54:03Z Arathnim: Cryptopals is pretty fun, and challenging. 2016-10-02T05:54:54Z Bike: well, if you have a byte array i guess the easiest thing to do would be to take three bytes at a time and cut em up 2016-10-02T05:55:32Z Bike: base65536 would be so much easier......... 2016-10-02T05:55:44Z myrkraverk: That's what I'm practicing now, with logand and ash; then I'll add logior and I think I'm done with cutting and splicing. 2016-10-02T05:56:13Z Bike: that's the hard part. for the encoding you can just index into an array. 2016-10-02T05:57:17Z myrkraverk: Yeah. 2016-10-02T05:59:14Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-10-02T05:59:21Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-02T06:02:39Z adlai: myrkraverk: for extra fun, do the cryptopals exercises in an online codepen such as http://ideone.com/ 2016-10-02T06:05:44Z myrkraverk: Nah, I'm cool with xemacs + sbcl. 2016-10-02T06:06:38Z adlai: you must be one of those people that stretches before working out 2016-10-02T06:08:09Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-02T06:08:50Z sexygayboi left #lisp 2016-10-02T06:13:46Z myrkraverk: Actually, I'm pretty lazy at stretching, but I'm working on it. 2016-10-02T06:14:15Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T06:14:58Z jasom: myrkraverk: logand and ash is usually less clear than dpb or (setf byte), depending on what your are doing 2016-10-02T06:15:40Z jasom: also xemacs? Is that even a thing anymore? 2016-10-02T06:17:21Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-10-02T06:17:48Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-02T06:18:58Z myrkraverk: For me, yes. 2016-10-02T06:20:00Z myrkraverk: But I'm already working with bits, inside 8 bit bytes. 2016-10-02T06:20:18Z myrkraverk: So I don't see how dpb is going to help. 2016-10-02T06:21:39Z Bike: like, if you have two bits in x and four in y, and want to have xxyyyy, you could do (logior y (ash x 2)), or you could do (dpb x (byte 2 4) y) which might be clearer. 2016-10-02T06:22:12Z Bike: well, maybe if i remembered the arguments correctly it would be, anyway 2016-10-02T06:22:38Z Bike: no, hey, got it right. yeaaaaaah 2016-10-02T06:23:08Z myrkraverk: Hmm, thanks. I'll try to get familiar with dpb and friends. 2016-10-02T06:25:49Z myrkraverk: In other news, I already did it with logior and ash and stuff. 2016-10-02T06:26:08Z myrkraverk: But yeah, learning new stuff is fun, so dpb gets a workout too. 2016-10-02T06:29:24Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-02T06:29:33Z AlphaAtom quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-02T06:31:52Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-02T06:37:54Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-02T06:46:06Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-02T06:49:22Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-02T06:49:26Z freedom010 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T06:49:53Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T06:57:04Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-02T06:58:52Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:00:10Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:00:25Z freedom010 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-02T07:02:18Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:05:32Z myrkraverk: I have to say that using dpb and ldb is not /that/ much clearer than logior and ash. 2016-10-02T07:07:49Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:08:32Z Indecipherable quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-02T07:09:02Z Bike: your choice. 2016-10-02T07:10:17Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:11:12Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:11:39Z Indecipherable quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-02T07:16:27Z vap1 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:16:58Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:19:29Z vap1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T07:19:29Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T07:19:42Z raydeejay quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-02T07:21:06Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:23:18Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-02T07:33:33Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:36:17Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-02T07:37:43Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:38:45Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:43:26Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-02T07:44:01Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:55:26Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-02T07:56:54Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-02T08:01:55Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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2016-10-02T09:10:51Z Beetny quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-02T09:14:06Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-02T09:14:27Z lexicall: hi, is it possible to compile an lambda expression? 2016-10-02T09:14:45Z lexicall: something like (compile (lambda () t)) 2016-10-02T09:15:17Z _death: maybe you mean (compile nil '(lambda () t)) 2016-10-02T09:15:36Z myrkraverk: (disassemble (lambda () 123)) ; actually outputs stuff on my end, so yes. 2016-10-02T09:15:51Z lexicall: _death: exactly, thanks 2016-10-02T09:19:32Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-02T09:19:33Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-02T09:19:55Z lexicall quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T09:21:39Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-02T09:25:23Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-02T09:26:47Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-02T09:27:02Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-02T09:27:53Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-02T09:30:21Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T09:31:21Z lexicall quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-02T09:37:31Z vauban joined #lisp 2016-10-02T09:38:40Z vauban: Quick question: how do I import external libraries, like Alexandria, in lisp? 2016-10-02T09:41:09Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-02T09:41:23Z _death: you write an asdf system definition 2016-10-02T09:41:26Z myrkraverk: vauban: usually with QuickLisp, (ql:quickload :alexandria) 2016-10-02T09:42:00Z _death: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Defining-systems-with-defsystem 2016-10-02T09:42:59Z vauban: Thanks 2016-10-02T09:49:08Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-02T09:49:32Z eSVG quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-02T09:49:58Z eSVG joined #lisp 2016-10-02T09:52:47Z AlphaAtom quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-02T09:53:39Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-02T09:55:04Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-02T10:03:21Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-02T10:06:27Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T10:10:26Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-02T10:15:07Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-02T10:16:32Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T10:19:20Z cpape quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T10:19:32Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-10-02T10:20:19Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-02T10:21:43Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-02T10:30:43Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T10:31:34Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-02T10:33:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-02T10:36:33Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-02T10:42:44Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-02T10:48:20Z shifty779 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T10:49:58Z chrpape joined #lisp 2016-10-02T10:52:25Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-02T10:57:30Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-02T11:01:31Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:04:32Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:07:53Z cpape joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:07:54Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-02T11:12:15Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:12:19Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:14:18Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:14:48Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T11:17:29Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-02T11:18:14Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:19:12Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:19:48Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T11:23:16Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:23:44Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:26:54Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-02T11:28:14Z Oladon joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:30:30Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:32:56Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:33:08Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-10-02T11:45:42Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:46:13Z raydeejay joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:47:06Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-02T11:50:08Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-02T11:54:12Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-02T12:00:38Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-02T12:16:59Z Xach: jasom: a release is a project at a particular point in time. 2016-10-02T12:17:15Z Xach: jasom: whether that's through a formal, versioned thing, or a git snapshot, or whatever. 2016-10-02T12:17:53Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-02T12:19:31Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-02T12:19:55Z pjb: Hi! Anybody knows whether the code beach used to generate the graphs of his intermediary code representation is available? 2016-10-02T12:20:30Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Macro is basically a function, and functions are monads. 2016-10-02T15:20:48Z beaky: functions on forms yes 2016-10-02T15:20:52Z ecraven: a macro is just a function at compile-time, I'd guess 2016-10-02T15:20:59Z ecraven: and a function is a function at run-time :) 2016-10-02T15:21:31Z beaky: yes i think i finally understand macros 2016-10-02T15:21:36Z TMA: beaky: at first there were FEXPRs. that had its own share of problems so the macros were invented https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fexpr 2016-10-02T15:21:46Z beaky: (now to find out what "hygienic" means) 2016-10-02T15:21:53Z TMA: beaky: and then there is this fable: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html 2016-10-02T15:22:07Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T15:22:20Z beaky: ye fexprs seem to be a flawed conception of the kind of thing macros arenusednfor ? 2016-10-02T15:22:45Z beaky: (deciding evaluation order) 2016-10-02T15:23:11Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-02T15:25:04Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:25:13Z TMA: beaky: FEXPRs need to use eval if they want any piece evaluated -- and eval is neat in principle (it enables REPLs, which is Wholesome Goodness) but having eval in "regular" code is mostly a code smell everywhere else 2016-10-02T15:25:19Z vento joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:25:40Z vento left #lisp 2016-10-02T15:27:01Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-10-02T15:32:05Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:32:10Z pierpa` joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:32:32Z reepca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T15:34:17Z albus joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:34:21Z albus: hell 2016-10-02T15:35:45Z albus: How can I convert a number to a string?Which function should i use? 2016-10-02T15:35:51Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-02T15:35:59Z albus: Anyone help? 2016-10-02T15:36:18Z pierpa`: princ-to-string is probably the simplest way 2016-10-02T15:36:54Z albus: well, I have to use the result of the function.Another function? 2016-10-02T15:37:03Z pierpa`: uh? 2016-10-02T15:37:18Z pierpa`: explain what you mean? 2016-10-02T15:37:32Z varjag: princ-to-string returns a string 2016-10-02T15:37:36Z varjag: (unsurprisingly) 2016-10-02T15:37:48Z albus: let me make a try 2016-10-02T15:38:26Z narendraj9 left #lisp 2016-10-02T15:38:50Z albus: sure, it works. 2016-10-02T15:38:57Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-02T15:39:02Z albus: Thank you a lot. 2016-10-02T15:39:46Z pierpa`: surprise! yw :) 2016-10-02T15:41:07Z albus: may I know which country are you from? @pierpa` 2016-10-02T15:41:20Z pierpa`: italy, why? 2016-10-02T15:41:42Z albus: nothing, just curious. 2016-10-02T15:41:48Z pierpa`: ok 2016-10-02T15:42:40Z hebroon joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:43:20Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T15:44:39Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:47:18Z hebroon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-02T15:47:56Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:49:04Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-02T15:53:20Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T15:53:53Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:54:48Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:56:14Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-02T15:56:45Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:57:57Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-02T15:58:17Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-02T15:58:26Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-02T15:58:33Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-02T15:59:55Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-02T16:01:43Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:02:00Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:09:53Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-02T16:12:28Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:13:05Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-02T16:13:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:13:18Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:15:49Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-02T16:15:51Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T16:16:09Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:17:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:19:42Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-02T16:24:29Z aindilis2 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:27:17Z AlphaAtom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-02T16:30:18Z albus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T16:41:36Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:43:21Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-02T16:43:23Z hebroon joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:43:51Z slowup joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:44:08Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:44:15Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-02T16:46:28Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:47:54Z hebroon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-02T16:49:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:50:36Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:52:20Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-02T16:52:40Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T16:54:03Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-02T16:54:27Z pjb is now known as Guest90479 2016-10-02T16:56:28Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I don't see why not 2016-10-02T18:57:55Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T18:58:52Z Baggers: nyarmith: the language itself sure, the thing I've run into is that people can only handle so much change in one go, so switching to emacs/vim at the same time as learning lisp colors the experience. 2016-10-02T19:02:00Z m3tti joined #lisp 2016-10-02T19:02:04Z jackdaniel: imo dr.racket is an awesome IDE (also racket is less "monumental" than common lisp), so it may be a good first language choice (and people will get used to sexp syntax :) 2016-10-02T19:02:08Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-02T19:09:33Z raydeejay: there's programming and then there's programming 2016-10-02T19:13:12Z pipping: (delete-duplicates) 2016-10-02T19:14:05Z ebrasca: I think it's reasonable learn lisp with " emacs + slime + sbcl ". 2016-10-02T19:15:38Z Vicfred quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-02T19:17:07Z pipping: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1470458 suggests that sbcl's sb-ext:run-program is pretty badly broken on windows (at least xp and 7) 2016-10-02T19:17:38Z pipping: nobody's ever replied to that bug report, though, so in particular nobody's ever confirmed it. 2016-10-02T19:18:00Z pipping wonders if it's still an issue but doesn't use windows 2016-10-02T19:32:09Z Yuuhi` joined #lisp 2016-10-02T19:32:17Z raydeejay: yep, Windows is still an issue 2016-10-02T19:33:44Z pipping: raydeejay: thanks 2016-10-02T19:33:59Z raydeejay: pipping: I mean, *Windows* is an issue 2016-10-02T19:34:27Z pipping: raydeejay: so... more of a platitude than the result of testing? 2016-10-02T19:34:37Z raydeejay: pretty much, I don't run Windows either 2016-10-02T19:34:59Z pipping: sorry, I misspelt platypus there 2016-10-02T19:35:40Z raydeejay: something beginning with pl 2016-10-02T19:36:06Z Yuuhi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-02T19:41:09Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T19:41:55Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-10-02T19:44:04Z nyarmith quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-02T19:44:57Z whois: https://blog.yoitsu.moe/tech_misc/weechat_glowingbear_irc.html && https://bbs.ustclug.org/t/weechat-irc/23 2016-10-02T19:45:59Z whois: weechat + glowing bear的IRC方案 zypper se这个weechat之前没反应 还以为官方源没有呢 2016-10-02T19:46:42Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-02T19:47:02Z hebroon joined #lisp 2016-10-02T19:47:23Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-02T19:49:11Z pipping: 全然分かりません 2016-10-02T19:50:33Z whois: .................sorry, In the wrong channels. 2016-10-02T19:50:49Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-02T19:51:38Z hebroon quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-02T19:56:59Z ggole__ quit 2016-10-02T20:02:29Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-02T20:03:34Z m3tti quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T20:06:26Z m3tti joined #lisp 2016-10-02T20:15:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T20:20:11Z spacebat2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-02T20:21:56Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T20:22:42Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T20:23:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: whois: no worries, you reminded me to post this again, http://readevalprint.tumblr.com/post/96866606738/my-little-transliterator-cant-be-this-clos 2016-10-02T20:23:29Z i44 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-02T20:28:36Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T20:28:51Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T20:33:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-02T20:36:26Z lolisa joined #lisp 2016-10-02T20:37:35Z lolisa left #lisp 2016-10-02T20:38:06Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-02T20:38:33Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-02T20:38:47Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T20:41:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T20:41:41Z pipping: Petit_Dejeuner: "post this again"? as in "I wrote this", so that you're https://github.com/tshatrov? 2016-10-02T20:42:03Z nyarmith joined #lisp 2016-10-02T20:43:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T20:46:15Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-02T20:46:25Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T20:46:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: pipping: I did not. 2016-10-02T20:46:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: And I am not. 2016-10-02T20:47:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: I just think it's neat and need to finish it. 2016-10-02T20:47:51Z hebroon joined #lisp 2016-10-02T20:50:25Z vapid: Petit_Dejeuner 2016-10-02T20:50:33Z vapid: hello 2016-10-02T20:51:06Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T20:52:42Z hebroon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-02T20:54:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: vapid: hi 2016-10-02T21:01:52Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-02T21:02:08Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T21:02:11Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-02T21:02:21Z vapid: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; 2016-10-02T21:02:36Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T21:04:06Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-02T21:06:29Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-10-02T21:13:18Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T21:13:53Z voidlily joined #lisp 2016-10-02T21:14:36Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-02T21:14:41Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-02T21:20:54Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Please help us decide on a brand name by voting for the best one here in this survey: http://goo.gl/ba60es 2016-10-02T22:01:34Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-02T22:02:49Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-02T22:03:30Z reepca joined #lisp 2016-10-02T22:04:40Z nyarmith quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-02T22:05:42Z phoe: Merdam: why is there no Mexican Lisper on the list? 2016-10-02T22:07:26Z hebroon joined #lisp 2016-10-02T22:09:07Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-02T22:11:01Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-02T22:11:33Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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:D 2016-10-03T01:09:56Z PuercoPop: raydeejay: :'( I just type a few key strokes and press tab and if it autocompletes I assume the person is present 2016-10-03T01:11:13Z raydeejay yells at PuercoPop's IRC client 2016-10-03T01:15:46Z whois quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-03T01:16:08Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T01:25:35Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-03T01:34:40Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-03T01:41:59Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T01:42:13Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T01:42:34Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-03T01:43:28Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T01:45:33Z White_Flame quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T01:46:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-03T01:48:11Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2016-10-03T01:48:17Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T01:50:19Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-03T01:53:39Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T01:54:49Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T02:11:13Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T02:16:38Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-03T02:18:23Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-03T02:20:16Z JohnMcClain quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-03T02:21:44Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T02:23:07Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-03T02:23:23Z defaultxr quit (Quit: defaultxr) 2016-10-03T02:24:25Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-03T02:26:55Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T02:27:38Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T02:37:46Z neoncontrails quit 2016-10-03T02:37:54Z groovy2shoes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-03T02:39:44Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T02:42:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-03T02:49:43Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T02:54:09Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T02:56:31Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-03T03:04:46Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-03T03:05:17Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T03:05:46Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T03:07:03Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-03T03:12:44Z loke: Good morning Lisp! 2016-10-03T03:12:46Z loke: And Beach 2016-10-03T03:12:55Z beach: Hello loke. 2016-10-03T03:13:31Z Yuuhi` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T03:14:19Z loke: I'm trying to find beach+lisp related images… Apparently this it: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/22/ed/f4/22edf4a1b515ff1f2c1f5bbd366dee83.jpg 2016-10-03T03:14:24Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T03:14:29Z loke: So that's Lisp, I guess. 2016-10-03T03:14:47Z beach: Heh. Nice picture. 2016-10-03T03:16:27Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-10-03T03:19:20Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-03T03:19:22Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-03T03:24:50Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T03:26:54Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T03:29:07Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-03T03:29:16Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-03T03:36:21Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-03T03:37:06Z pierpa` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T03:41:20Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T03:42:58Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-03T03:51:29Z trn joined #lisp 2016-10-03T03:53:11Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T03:53:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T03:53:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-03T03:54:05Z ludston quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T03:56:11Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T04:02:44Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-03T04:03:59Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:04:54Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-10-03T04:05:05Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T04:07:00Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:07:58Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:08:13Z tax joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:11:15Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:12:46Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-10-03T04:15:52Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:16:03Z Guest78856 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:17:58Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:22:56Z Arathnim quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-03T04:23:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:23:13Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-10-03T04:23:16Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:27:45Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-03T04:29:07Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T04:29:07Z beach: I updated the example in chapter 8 (starting on page 37 of the document, page 41 in the PDF file) of this document: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.pdf according to my simplification of the representation of the worklist. If anyone has time, I would appreciate remarks related to the example and of course to the updating technique itself. 2016-10-03T04:29:09Z beach: I figured out how to test this technique using my favorite testing technique, namely issuing random operations to two different implementations of the same protocol and comparing the results. So far, I can generate a random test cache, turn that into the documented representation, and compare the two. Next, I will work on generating random buffer updates. 2016-10-03T04:30:53Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-03T04:31:34Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:34:40Z beach: Notice that, although it says that a special version of the reader is required, in fact, with minor modifications to the SICL simple reader, I can use it unmodified, and I just have to define :AROUND methods on some of the functions of that reader. 2016-10-03T04:34:42Z m3tti joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:37:05Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:41:33Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:42:43Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-03T04:46:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T04:48:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:50:38Z Secretmapper joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:53:12Z _michael_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-03T04:54:44Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T04:55:17Z _michael_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T04:58:00Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:02:04Z _michael_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T05:06:10Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:07:16Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:11:32Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:14:10Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-03T05:18:30Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T05:23:55Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:25:15Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-03T05:25:53Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:26:02Z SAL9000 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T05:26:08Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-03T05:26:30Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:35:34Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:43:25Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:46:26Z mathi_aihtam quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-03T05:47:03Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:48:13Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:48:24Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-03T05:49:40Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T05:50:20Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-03T05:54:48Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:03:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:04:42Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T06:07:14Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T06:13:09Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-03T06:13:22Z trn quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-03T06:13:39Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T06:15:43Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:19:34Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:21:29Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T06:25:00Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:25:03Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:26:45Z justicefries joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:30:07Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T06:30:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:31:38Z salva quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-03T06:33:08Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:33:13Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T06:35:43Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:36:45Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:37:03Z i44 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:37:07Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:37:27Z eSVG quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-03T06:37:51Z eSVG joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:42:00Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-03T06:43:38Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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Every time you type a form to be evaluated, COMPILE is called to compile it to native code (in most implementations) and then that code is executed. 2016-10-03T09:14:25Z johnwhat: for example, when the program is running, and it asks me to input a symbol as a variable name, then input a value to it, the program can operate the variable 2016-10-03T09:14:54Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T09:15:00Z beach: Sure, if it is a special variable. Not if it is a lexical variable, though. 2016-10-03T09:15:43Z johnwhat: could you give me a simple example for that and don't use eval :) 2016-10-03T09:17:03Z beach: Sure. Try (symbol-value (read)) and then answer (say) *print-base*. 2016-10-03T09:21:30Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T09:23:16Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:28:25Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:31:31Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:31:48Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-03T09:32:36Z anon1887 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:33:13Z johnwhat: beach: yes, symbol-value can do that 2016-10-03T09:33:39Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:37:48Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:39:14Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:42:41Z johnwhat: I feel it's like pointer in C 2016-10-03T09:43:28Z beach: I think that you are determined not to be satisfied with the answers you get. 2016-10-03T09:43:44Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:43:55Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T09:45:49Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T09:45:59Z guicho_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T09:46:44Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:47:13Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:48:11Z johnwhat: change the running code from outside 2016-10-03T09:50:37Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-10-03T09:51:20Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:51:41Z beach: Obviously, if you rule out all the ways in which that is done in the language, then it can't be done. 2016-10-03T09:51:41Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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The way to alter that code is by changing the source code and then calling COMPILE on the changed source code. 2016-10-03T09:54:40Z beach: But since you ruled out EVAL, COMPILE, COMPILE-FILE, there is nothing lefter, except perhaps calling COERCE on a lambda expression, but that is likely to call COMPILE or EVAL, so I think you have run out of options. 2016-10-03T09:55:25Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:57:15Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-03T09:57:58Z ovenpasta quit (Quit: ovenpasta) 2016-10-03T09:58:14Z johnwhat: ... 2016-10-03T09:58:47Z beach: So either you don't really want the right answer, or you have some strange idea about how a Common Lisp system works, in that you think that code can be executed that is not in the form of instructions to the processor. 2016-10-03T10:00:16Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T10:01:00Z jackdaniel: maybe he wants something like aspect-oriented programming? johnwhat: you don't have to execute "data" (but code is data in CL), you define "around" methods for that 2016-10-03T10:01:03Z jackdaniel: read about CLOS 2016-10-03T10:01:45Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T10:03:13Z Guest78856: ol 2016-10-03T10:03:20Z Guest78856: lol even 2016-10-03T10:03:31Z jackdaniel: modifying functions during runtime is very handy during development, but creating self-modifying programs would lead you to hard-to-maintain places 2016-10-03T10:04:27Z beach: jackdaniel: Maybe so. I fully expect something like "but in I can do , so how can I do that in Common Lisp?", where is a programming language and is something you can do in that is perceived as impossible in Common Lisp. 2016-10-03T10:04:29Z splittist: or you can create your own interpreter/compiler that 'runs' the data. You can read the code for cl-ppcre for a clever approach. 2016-10-03T10:05:49Z Guest78856: i love the conversatons in his chan 2016-10-03T10:05:52Z jackdaniel still has reading cl-ppcre code on his TODO list 2016-10-03T10:07:57Z beach: Guest78856: I agree. They can sometimes be quite fascinating. 2016-10-03T10:08:12Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T10:08:12Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T10:11:40Z doc_solitude quit (Quit: doc_solitude) 2016-10-03T10:12:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T10:12:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-03T10:12:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-03T10:12:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-03T10:13:57Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-03T10:17:18Z doc_solitude joined #lisp 2016-10-03T10:18:44Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-03T10:18:49Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T10:20:15Z splittist: beach: from a first quick look at Chapter 8, I would have benefited from higher-level explanation before the detailed one. It all comes together in the end, of course, but I missed where you introduced the idea of the worklist, rather than just mentioning it. 2016-10-03T10:21:48Z splittist: beach: I wonder if end-line is the best name, since it implies a parallel with end-column. 2016-10-03T10:23:47Z beach: Thanks. Yes, it needs improvement. I just wanted to write it down before I forget how it is done. 2016-10-03T10:24:10Z beach: Lunch, I'll be back later. 2016-10-03T10:29:02Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T10:32:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-03T10:33:29Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T10:34:42Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-03T10:34:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-03T10:34:42Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-03T10:39:24Z Secretmapper joined #lisp 2016-10-03T10:50:12Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-03T10:50:46Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-03T10:55:15Z johnwhat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-03T10:55:36Z beach: splittist: I guess I could replace end-line by "height" and add 1 to the value. 2016-10-03T10:55:58Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T10:56:59Z doc_solitude quit (Quit: doc_solitude) 2016-10-03T10:59:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T11:01:49Z waynecolvin quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-03T11:01:50Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:03:27Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:04:23Z beach` joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:05:19Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:06:30Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T11:07:53Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T11:08:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:10:39Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:12:51Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-03T11:13:48Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:15:38Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T11:17:19Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:27:09Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T11:27:35Z User39943 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:28:10Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:28:30Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:28:30Z User39943: Is " -> " without the quotation marks a part of lisp programming language? 2016-10-03T11:28:54Z White_Flame: it's expressable as a symbol 2016-10-03T11:28:55Z jackdaniel: User39943: it is an ordinary symbol 2016-10-03T11:29:00Z White_Flame: but nothing built in is named that 2016-10-03T11:29:09Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:29:25Z jackdaniel: User39943: you may name your function pixel->color 2016-10-03T11:29:30Z jackdaniel: for instance 2016-10-03T11:29:54Z User39943: So the programmer in a sense of things gives meaning to ->? 2016-10-03T11:30:50Z White_Flame: sure, the same way you could name a function "foo" 2016-10-03T11:30:51Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T11:31:17Z White_Flame: (or do many more things in Lisp, like macros, symbol macros, etc) 2016-10-03T11:31:17Z fe[nl]ix: User39943: such a poetic way to put it 2016-10-03T11:31:53Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:32:39Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:33:26Z User39943: (setf *rules* '(( (1 1) -> (1) R1) )) 2016-10-03T11:33:44Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:34:31Z User39943: Does setf mean a function? or... 2016-10-03T11:36:43Z User39943: That is from a file that provides rules for a game. (1 1) is the current state and (1) is to change the state. R1 is simply the name for the rule. 2016-10-03T11:37:45Z User39943: Not sure what setf means (though I can guess) and if the *'s are needed. 2016-10-03T11:38:09Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:38:59Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-03T11:39:01Z ggole: setf is macro for mutating things (in this case, a variable) 2016-10-03T11:39:18Z User39943: and *rules* is the name of the variable? 2016-10-03T11:39:22Z ggole: Yep 2016-10-03T11:39:40Z ggole: The *s are a convention that indicates a special variable 2016-10-03T11:39:52Z ggole: Special meaning dynamically scoped 2016-10-03T11:41:58Z User39943: So is '(( (1 1) -> (1) R1) )) the value of *rules*? 2016-10-03T11:42:21Z User39943: I mean, does it read it like a string? 2016-10-03T11:42:29Z Grue`: it's a tree structure 2016-10-03T11:43:22Z User39943: oic, thanks 2016-10-03T11:43:24Z Grue`: basically *rules* is a list of rules, and each rule is a list of, well, things 2016-10-03T11:43:38Z Grue`: where each thing might be a list or a symbol 2016-10-03T11:45:13Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T11:46:02Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:46:04Z User39943: Thank you, makes sense now 2016-10-03T11:47:16Z solene: hello, just to say that I bought the "Land of LISP" book, it's really fun and well explained, but not suited for someone who don't know how to program / write algorithm. Does someone know this book ? 2016-10-03T11:48:55Z doc_solitude joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:48:57Z scymtym: + 2016-10-03T11:50:33Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T11:52:13Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:52:25Z sjl: solene: yes, and I'd mostly agree. If someone doesn't know programming at all then Common Lisp: a Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation is probably a bit easier to start with 2016-10-03T11:52:37Z sjl: It eases you into things a bit more gradually. 2016-10-03T11:53:04Z sjl wishes that book had a shorter name 2016-10-03T11:53:07Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-03T11:54:06Z Grue`: maybe try something like Logo first (or whatever is the modern equivalent of Logo) 2016-10-03T11:54:58Z solene: I don't have any problem, I know how to use some others langage and do programming daily 2016-10-03T11:55:13Z vento_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:55:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T11:56:25Z razzy89__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T11:56:43Z solene: I also know how to write Common LISP but I don't really know it nor I understood what I'm doing, that's why I bought a book about it. I've learned it the hard way (trying things until it works, looking for pieces of code on the internet) but sometimes I have really no idea what i'm doing but it works, and I don't like this kind of situation 2016-10-03T11:56:44Z Grue`: I mean, even installing Common Lisp is probably out of league for non-programmers, much less programming in it 2016-10-03T11:56:55Z holly2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T11:58:20Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-03T11:58:20Z Grue`: well, Gentle Introduction does explain how it works 2016-10-03T12:04:22Z Baggers: solene: have you seen this book http://www.paulgraham.com/acl.html ? 2016-10-03T12:04:23Z holly2 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:04:52Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:05:24Z solene: Baggers: nope 2016-10-03T12:05:43Z solene: I have land of lisp to read by the moment, maybe I'll try this one next ? 2016-10-03T12:05:43Z Baggers: solene: also are there any resource for other languages you found particularly good as a beginner, I tried designing some beginner lisp videos but catering for total newcomers was really tricky. I'd love to see some examples of it done right 2016-10-03T12:05:50Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:06:18Z Baggers: solene: yeah, maybe. I enjoyed land of lisp, but yeah there were a few ommisions that were tricky to grasp 2016-10-03T12:06:30Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T12:06:38Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:08:07Z solene: I've done a few projects in LISP actually (irc bot, irc client, static website generator, dynamic blog using caveman framework) 2016-10-03T12:08:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T12:08:38Z myrkraverk: Is there a tool in CFFI which allows me to "grab binary data" and put it into a vector? 2016-10-03T12:09:02Z myrkraverk: There is a string grabber, but nothing (that I see in the manual) for grabbing a region of bytes and turning it into a vector in ilsp. 2016-10-03T12:09:27Z solene: myrkraverk: I know a way to do it in an array ? 2016-10-03T12:09:36Z myrkraverk: (ok, why I would want to, I'm not exactly sure, but I wanted to know how) 2016-10-03T12:09:46Z myrkraverk: solene: you do? 2016-10-03T12:09:54Z solene: read-sequence ? 2016-10-03T12:10:12Z myrkraverk: solene: No, I mean, with data passed in as pointer, from a C function. 2016-10-03T12:10:37Z solene: oh, that's beyond my knowledge 2016-10-03T12:10:51Z Baggers: myrkraverk: do you need this to be an array you can pass around, or does it only need to be valid for a scope? 2016-10-03T12:11:06Z myrkraverk: So in this case, the C function returns a struct with length and data. I've already used foreign-string-to-lisp to read it as string, but if I want it as a vector of bytes? 2016-10-03T12:11:23Z myrkraverk: Baggers: valid for a scope is enough for now. 2016-10-03T12:13:13Z Baggers: myrkraverk: quick question, why does it need to be a lisp array in that scope, why not just (mem-aref ptr :uint8 index)? 2016-10-03T12:13:34Z myrkraverk: Baggers: that's the question -- I'm not sure yet. 2016-10-03T12:14:29Z myrkraverk: Ok, what I'm doing (playing with) is interfacing NSS for cryptographic operations. Ideally, I'd like to pass around vectors of bytes *maybe* at some point. So I thought I'd look up how to turn a pointer to an array into a vector. 2016-10-03T12:14:33Z Baggers: cool. Well mem-aref (and friends) work well and avoid copying. Im just going to look at the static-vectors package and see if there is anything useful in there 2016-10-03T12:15:05Z myrkraverk: I see. 2016-10-03T12:16:21Z Baggers: if you provide the api with a ptr to memory for it to fill then you can use the static-vectors library to create a lisp vector with unmanaged memory, get the pointer to it and pass it to the c api. 2016-10-03T12:16:32Z madbub joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:17:06Z Baggers: if you are targeting sbcl only you could make a little wrapper struct to hold the pointer and use the sbcls sequences extensions to make it feel like a lisp seq 2016-10-03T12:17:54Z Baggers: myrkraverk: also try (cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp ptr :uint8) :) 2016-10-03T12:18:20Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T12:18:25Z myrkraverk: I can try that, but why don't I find it in https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html ? 2016-10-03T12:19:08Z Baggers: good question, maybe it just hasnt been documented yet 2016-10-03T12:19:29Z fe[nl]ix: myrkraverk: you can use static-vectors 2016-10-03T12:19:29Z myrkraverk: Also, how do I tell it the length of the array? 2016-10-03T12:19:46Z fe[nl]ix: that's more useful for when you can allocate the buffer in Lisp and pass it to the C code 2016-10-03T12:20:15Z myrkraverk: How do I use static vectors? 2016-10-03T12:20:17Z Baggers: fe[nl]ix: I think I suggested that above..maybe I missed something 2016-10-03T12:20:25Z fe[nl]ix: if the C code allocates the memory, turning it into a Lisp vector without copy is only possible on Allegro 2016-10-03T12:20:35Z fe[nl]ix: Baggers: oops, indeed, I missed that 2016-10-03T12:20:42Z myrkraverk: Ok, (ql:quickload :static-vectors) is happening. 2016-10-03T12:21:25Z myrkraverk: In this particular case (the way I'm using the NSS base64 encode/decode functions) NSS is doing the allocation. 2016-10-03T12:21:45Z myrkraverk: So if I want the buffer around after I call the corresponding free function, I'll need to copy. 2016-10-03T12:21:58Z fe[nl]ix: yes 2016-10-03T12:23:43Z ovenpasta quit (Quit: ovenpasta) 2016-10-03T12:23:56Z myrkraverk: Do I have to do that "manually" -- as in, allocate a vector and copy the elements? 2016-10-03T12:24:24Z myrkraverk: Or is there something already that can "copy these n bytes from a SAP into a vector" ? 2016-10-03T12:24:57Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:24:59Z myrkraverk: Because, the foreign-array-to-lisp seems to lack a length parameter. Or am I missing something? 2016-10-03T12:25:31Z ovenpasta quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-03T12:25:48Z Baggers: myrkraverk: (let ((x (cffi:foreign-alloc :uint8 :count 10))) 2016-10-03T12:25:48Z Baggers: (cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp x '(:array :uint8 10))) 2016-10-03T12:26:00Z Baggers: woops, it's there but mangled :) 2016-10-03T12:26:28Z myrkraverk: Ok, because nothing in the doc string mentions the length. 2016-10-03T12:26:42Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-03T12:26:55Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T12:27:20Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:27:30Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:27:33Z Baggers: myrkraverk: Im may be missing something, but you cant just get the length of a C array, whatever api you are using is going to have to tell you it's length 2016-10-03T12:27:50Z Baggers: unless of course it has a delimiter you can look for 2016-10-03T12:28:09Z Baggers: but then you might just want to make your own copy function 2016-10-03T12:28:36Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:28:42Z myrkraverk: Baggers: the C API in this case returns a(n allocated) pointer to struct which include both len(gth) and data. 2016-10-03T12:29:18Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T12:29:43Z Baggers: man, my brain I was trying to parse those parens as lisp and kept stalling 2016-10-03T12:30:07Z fe[nl]ix: Baggers: http://paste.lisp.org/+70TX 2016-10-03T12:30:21Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:30:36Z Baggers: fe[nl]ix: Ooo! I didnt know it had replace 2016-10-03T12:30:41Z Baggers: excellent 2016-10-03T12:31:36Z Baggers: myrkraverk: cool, so you can use #'foreign-slot-value to get the len from the struct and then fe[nl]ix's snippet above to copy the data into a static vector 2016-10-03T12:32:08Z myrkraverk: I see, thanks. 2016-10-03T12:32:57Z beach` is now known as beach 2016-10-03T12:33:11Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T12:33:35Z Baggers: fe[nl]ix: unrelated, but thanks for static-vectors, its on of those libs that just makes me happy to be using CL. 2016-10-03T12:33:43Z Baggers: s/on/one 2016-10-03T12:35:12Z myrkraverk: What is the differenc between using cffi:foreign-array-to-lisp and static vectors? 2016-10-03T12:35:39Z myrkraverk: Does the former need the pointer to C data kept around and not freed? 2016-10-03T12:36:14Z Baggers: foreign-array-to-lisp is going to give your a normal GC'd lisp array. static-vectors is a lisp array in unmanaged memory so you have to remember to free it 2016-10-03T12:36:38Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:36:39Z myrkraverk: Ah, I see. 2016-10-03T12:36:40Z Baggers: myrkraverk: both are copied though 2016-10-03T12:37:00Z myrkraverk: So for now, I think I just want foreign-array-to-lisp. 2016-10-03T12:37:56Z fe[nl]ix: Baggers: that's corrent. also, foreign-array-to-lisp doesn't have an optimized version so the array creation is slow 2016-10-03T12:38:03Z fe[nl]ix: not that it usually matters 2016-10-03T12:38:28Z myrkraverk: In my case, slow is not an issue -- yet. 2016-10-03T12:40:06Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T12:40:37Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-03T12:41:36Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:41:39Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:43:23Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:43:50Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T12:43:55Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-03T12:43:55Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:45:50Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T12:50:12Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:50:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-03T12:56:20Z User39943 quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 49.0/20160920074044]) 2016-10-03T13:02:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T13:03:10Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-03T13:03:31Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:03:36Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:04:09Z vento_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-03T13:04:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:09:10Z vauban joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:09:25Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-03T13:09:29Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T13:09:33Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:09:45Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:15:42Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-03T13:19:51Z titankiller quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-03T13:21:10Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:28:42Z eSVG joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:29:01Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:30:39Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T13:33:50Z ejt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-03T13:34:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T13:35:30Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:37:30Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:39:23Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-03T13:40:35Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-03T13:41:03Z Ian joined #lisp 2016-10-03T13:41:26Z Ian is now known as Guest22593 2016-10-03T13:42:11Z Guest22593 is now known as mianxox 2016-10-03T13:43:18Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T16:15:21Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:15:31Z holycow joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:18:25Z failproofwork joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:18:32Z TruePika joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:18:49Z TruePika: (poking in, in case I need help) 2016-10-03T16:19:22Z TruePika: since orbital mechanics can be a PITA 2016-10-03T16:20:07Z TruePika: going to be writing code to do analysis of stuff for Kerbal Space Program, if anyone was wondering 2016-10-03T16:20:41Z TruePika: but I need to get an implementation of Newton's method because some things can't be solved analytically >_> 2016-10-03T16:21:07Z beach: Doesn't sound too hard. 2016-10-03T16:21:18Z TruePika: yeah, especially since I'm checking quicklisp first 2016-10-03T16:22:25Z TruePika: things will get harder when I start writing classes to represent orbits, especially conversion between the elements the .SFS (savegame) files use and an X/Y/Z/vX/vY/vZ representation 2016-10-03T16:22:54Z TruePika: though some documentation from NASA will ease the pain somewhat 2016-10-03T16:23:45Z diphuser quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T16:23:53Z TruePika: but the first requirement for Newton's method is to get position on the orbit as a function of time, something which is very important for pretty clear reasons 2016-10-03T16:24:24Z TruePika: well, (ql:system-apropos :newton) returns nothing, time to go to Wikipedia! 2016-10-03T16:27:38Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:27:56Z TruePika: yay numerical derivitives >_> 2016-10-03T16:29:18Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:29:25Z TruePika: I probably can't reliably use epsilon 2016-10-03T16:30:00Z TruePika: hm, I'll hardcode a delta for now 2016-10-03T16:30:31Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-03T16:32:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:33:43Z TruePika: well, delta of 0.00001 is working for now, just tested with x^2@x=20, difference is less than 1/3 2016-10-03T16:34:00Z TruePika: probably doesn't need to be perfect 2016-10-03T16:34:05Z holycow: sounds fun 2016-10-03T16:34:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T16:34:31Z TruePika: ...that said, I can probably just pass the analytically-determined derivitive into the function anyway... 2016-10-03T16:35:20Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:35:31Z TruePika: yeah, that is probably a lot safer 2016-10-03T16:36:04Z Bike: i thought KSP orbits were on rails and you were only affected by one body's gravity at a time. 2016-10-03T16:36:08Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:36:19Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T16:38:15Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T16:39:00Z TruePika: Bike: that is perfectly correct, but there are complications 2016-10-03T16:40:20Z TruePika: to get the angle between the apoapsis and the satellite/craft/whatever as a function of the mean anomaly, you need to solve something which has a sort of x*sin(x) term in it 2016-10-03T16:40:45Z TruePika: let me load up my document on my nSpire, I can quote it 2016-10-03T16:41:23Z TruePika: I was misremembering 2016-10-03T16:41:48Z TruePika: M=E-e*sin(E) // M=mean anomaly, E is computable from theta, e is eccentricity 2016-10-03T16:42:11Z TruePika: you can get the mean anomaly from the position, but not vice versa analytically 2016-10-03T16:42:29Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T16:42:29Z TruePika: at least, not as far as I can tell 2016-10-03T16:42:53Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:43:30Z TruePika: honestly, I was surprised as well 2016-10-03T16:43:39Z steventog joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:44:36Z TruePika: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19630011221.pdf PDF page 115 2016-10-03T16:44:41Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:50:08Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:51:13Z Bike: well, here's w here i admit i don't know what an anomaly is 2016-10-03T16:51:22Z Bike: newton's method is pretty easy though. just need a small step size. 2016-10-03T16:51:32Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:52:28Z Bike: mostly you were talking about non-analytically-solvable equations and i was imagining an n-body attempt 2016-10-03T16:53:05Z TruePika: no, there are still problems in 2-body systems, when you use certain representations 2016-10-03T16:56:34Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-03T16:58:17Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T16:59:33Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:00:42Z TruePika: wow, that was surprisingly simple to implement 2016-10-03T17:02:01Z ristur left #lisp 2016-10-03T17:05:23Z Bike: wikipedia's article on kepler's function gives some series expansions you can use. 2016-10-03T17:05:54Z Bike: ...though newton's method might converge faster than the taylor series 2016-10-03T17:07:12Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T17:07:15Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T17:07:29Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:07:35Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-03T17:08:37Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:08:52Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:09:27Z TruePika: From NASA: "The best form of this iteration (assuming that a reasonable estimate of E is available) is Newton's method which is obtained directly from the Taylor series expansion of M as a function of the estimate E and the mean anomaly." 2016-10-03T17:09:56Z TruePika: so I might use the TS for an initial guess 2016-10-03T17:10:55Z Bike: i guess you're probably not doing this enough that shaving a few microseconds will help much, either, huh 2016-10-03T17:11:19Z TruePika: no, at least not right now 2016-10-03T17:11:49Z TruePika: I want to get a working framework down before I optimize it 2016-10-03T17:11:54Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T17:12:16Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-03T17:12:37Z TruePika: but even then, I wouldn't know the bottleneck without profiling 2016-10-03T17:20:36Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:20:59Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:22:03Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:22:03Z guicho_ quit (Read 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state and set that to proposed. it hten changes the values in proposed for left-missionaries, right missionaries and boat 2016-10-03T17:29:12Z Bike: seems so. 2016-10-03T17:29:21Z fendral: so at the end then proposed should have a left missionaries of 2, right missionary of 1 and a boat of L (opposite return L for R) 2016-10-03T17:29:44Z Bike: assuming left-missionaries in state is zero, yes. 2016-10-03T17:29:54Z fendral: yeah sorry left-missionaries is at 0 2016-10-03T17:30:27Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T17:30:32Z Bike: is this not what you are seeing? 2016-10-03T17:30:34Z TruePika: is there an easy way to recompile and reload an ASDF system without restarting the machine? 2016-10-03T17:30:42Z Bike: :force t i think 2016-10-03T17:30:49Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:30:56Z fendral: when i run my search engine program to find a solution for the problem, it goes on forever 2016-10-03T17:31:17Z Baggers: TruePika: expanding on bike's correct answer (asdf:load-system :foo :force t) 2016-10-03T17:31:18Z Bike: well, put in some debug breaks or print statements and see if the states are what they ought to be. 2016-10-03T17:31:26Z TruePika: Baggers: thanks 2016-10-03T17:31:32Z fendral: yeah thats what i'm going to try right now 2016-10-03T17:32:13Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:41:50Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:51:53Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:52:07Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-03T17:53:23Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:54:23Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T17:55:21Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-03T17:56:09Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-03T17:57:59Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-03T18:00:11Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-03T18:00:54Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Quit: Gone.) 2016-10-03T18:03:19Z __main__ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T18:04:41Z doc_solitude quit (Quit: doc_solitude) 2016-10-03T18:04:44Z Jesin quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-03T18:05:06Z Jesin joined #lisp 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(standard disclaimer: I haven't written a lisp plugin system) 2016-10-03T21:47:32Z otwieracz: Problem is more legal. 2016-10-03T21:47:35Z otwieracz: About providing source code. 2016-10-03T21:47:48Z anon1887 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-03T21:48:04Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T21:48:21Z mordocai: otwieracz: Ugh yeah. I assume you can't get an exception for plugins? In any case, I don't know much about your issue since I've never shipped fasl's around. Hopefully someone can help. 2016-10-03T21:49:05Z TMA: otwieracz: do all your fasls do that? or only some of them? 2016-10-03T21:49:14Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T21:49:15Z otwieracz: Only some of them. 2016-10-03T21:50:06Z otwieracz: Specific things from quicklisp are, somehow, failing to load without source code being available. 2016-10-03T21:50:26Z otwieracz: (under location previously specified on, let's name it, „buildhost”) 2016-10-03T21:50:32Z TMA: otwieracz: can you take one of the ones that do have the problem and remove top level forms from them until they cease to make the problem thereby isolating the offending form? 2016-10-03T21:52:47Z otwieracz: Yeah, I might just have a suspect. 2016-10-03T21:53:04Z otwieracz: Is there any way to „include” ASDF system like C's #include? 2016-10-03T21:53:23Z otwieracz: I mean, to just concatenate everything? 2016-10-03T21:54:33Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T21:55:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-03T21:55:38Z otwieracz: (the goal will be to create one big FASL with all dependencies) 2016-10-03T21:56:21Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-03T21:57:12Z Xach: otwieracz: you can do that with something like create-monofasl-op 2016-10-03T21:57:24Z Xach: then you get foo--all-systems.fasl that you can load sans asdf 2016-10-03T21:57:41Z Xach: i can't remember the exact syntax 2016-10-03T21:58:31Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-03T21:59:26Z otwieracz: I've never head about something like create-monofasl-op. 2016-10-03T21:59:47Z mordocai: otwieracz: Searching xach's terms I found http://gendl.blogspot.com/ 2016-10-03T21:59:56Z mordocai: The latest post there has an example 2016-10-03T22:00:18Z Xach: mordocai: you are the hero #lisp deserves 2016-10-03T22:01:09Z gendl: it's called monolithic-compile-bundle-op in current asdf. 2016-10-03T22:01:14Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-03T22:01:21Z otwieracz: this sounds helpful. Thank you! 2016-10-03T22:01:36Z mordocai: gendl: Aha, you were summoned! lol 2016-10-03T22:01:45Z gendl: There are a couple typos in that blog entry I need to fix. 2016-10-03T22:02:23Z mordocai: otwieracz: Yeah so if each plugin is an asdf system it sounds like you may be able to use that. 2016-10-03T22:02:38Z mordocai: Assuming your going about it the way it is in my head 2016-10-03T22:02:44Z mordocai: you're* 2016-10-03T22:03:27Z otwieracz: mordocai: it isn't, but that's thing I should be able to do. 2016-10-03T22:06:01Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T22:06:40Z `lain joined #lisp 2016-10-03T22:07:03Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T22:10:06Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T22:11:54Z adolf_st_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T22:13:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-03T22:13:27Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T22:16:07Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T22:17:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-03T22:22:46Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-03T22:31:45Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-03T22:32:20Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-03T22:32:47Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-03T22:36:21Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-03T22:39:30Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T22:42:17Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T22:43:16Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-03T22:46:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-03T22:53:39Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-03T22:54:39Z foom joined #lisp 2016-10-03T22:56:43Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-03T22:58:04Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-03T23:00:01Z Xach joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:06:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T23:17:00Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-03T23:18:10Z pillton: Any cl-launch maintainers here? 2016-10-03T23:19:53Z JohnMcClain joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:23:01Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:23:41Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:24:31Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:25:47Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T23:26:17Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T23:26:28Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:26:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:28:10Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:28:33Z Quadresce: Is there a good way to delete (or alternatively find) where ASDF is caching FASLs? I want a portable way to delete them. 2016-10-03T23:29:18Z pillton: Quadresce: asdf:*user-cache*. 2016-10-03T23:29:41Z Quadresce: pillton, thanks, I didn't realize that was an external symbol 2016-10-03T23:30:11Z pillton: I'd check what the "user" in *user-cache* means. Maybe there is a hierarchy of locations. 2016-10-03T23:30:20Z Quadresce: The second question I have: I find that I frequently have to delete QL's system-index.txt to reindex the local filesystem. Is there an API for this or do I have to delete system-index.txt myself. 2016-10-03T23:30:50Z pillton: I don't have that problem. 2016-10-03T23:31:35Z Quadresce: It usually happens when I add a local project and QL has already indexed that directory. 2016-10-03T23:31:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-03T23:32:38Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T23:33:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T23:34:13Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-03T23:35:17Z Xioouves joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:36:14Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-10-03T23:37:08Z hhdave_ quit (Quit: hhdave_) 2016-10-03T23:40:55Z Xach: Quadresce: (ql:register-local-projects) 2016-10-03T23:41:53Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-03T23:44:07Z Quadresce: Xach: Nice! Thanks. 2016-10-03T23:44:46Z Xach: Quadresce: if you add directories at the top level, it should reindex automatically. 2016-10-03T23:45:01Z Xach: Quadresce: it compares the write-date of the directory to the write-date of the index file to see about a rebuild. 2016-10-03T23:45:16Z Xach: it is not foolproof, so ql:register-local-projects was introduced at the same time. 2016-10-03T23:45:40Z Quadresce: Xach, you're right, it happens when the new asd's are a few levels deep 2016-10-03T23:47:18Z failproofwork quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-03T23:47:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:47:51Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-03T23:48:06Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:53:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-03T23:59:24Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2016-10-03T23:59:54Z Xioouves quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T00:03:25Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T00:05:03Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-10-04T00:05:58Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T00:07:26Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T00:07:44Z cpc26_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T00:10:57Z holycow joined #lisp 2016-10-04T00:11:05Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Some system called just "graph" is being requested by https://github.com/mfiano/gamebox. (i've asked the author but didn't hear back immediately so thought i'd ask he community at large) 2016-10-04T04:28:23Z mordocai: ask the* 2016-10-04T04:29:46Z Bike: looks like it's in quicklisp. 2016-10-04T04:30:15Z mordocai: Really? Maybe i'm being dumb one sec 2016-10-04T04:30:29Z Bike: https://github.com/eschulte/graph 2016-10-04T04:30:37Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T04:30:59Z mordocai: Ah yeah, thanks Bike. My script I was calling was using asdf not quickload so it didn't load it. Just being dumb over here... 2016-10-04T04:32:26Z mordocai blames the wine 2016-10-04T04:41:25Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T04:45:11Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T04:51:45Z imightbestupid12 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T04:51:47Z imightbestupid12: what are the most essential books and languages to learn to be a strong, well-rounded, beginner/intermediate programmer? 2016-10-04T04:51:49Z imightbestupid12: basically i would like to have a set of tools in my head such as principles and ways to solve problems in my head before i tackle a project 2016-10-04T04:52:09Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T04:52:35Z adlai: https://github.com/zkat/ama/issues/5 2016-10-04T04:52:46Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-04T04:53:01Z imightbestupid12: adlai: bookmarked! 2016-10-04T04:53:05Z imightbestupid12: thank you so much :) 2016-10-04T04:53:09Z adlai: thank zkat 2016-10-04T04:57:12Z imightbestupid12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-04T04:57:14Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-04T04:58:25Z _death: missing PAIP, SICP, TPoP 2016-10-04T04:59:15Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T05:00:55Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T05:04:18Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:04:45Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:05:14Z adlai: _death: comment section is on github, not here 2016-10-04T05:06:55Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:07:27Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T05:10:43Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T05:24:21Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-04T05:26:02Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:29:13Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T05:31:42Z flip214: PCL 2016-10-04T05:32:12Z flip214: Loλ 2016-10-04T05:32:25Z flip214: though that's not for beginners, as such 2016-10-04T05:32:40Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:34:18Z edgar-rft: 2016-10-04T05:35:37Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T05:36:28Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T05:38:13Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:40:17Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-04T05:40:28Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-10-04T05:40:42Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-04T05:40:55Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T05:41:42Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:42:28Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:44:12Z adolf_st_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T05:44:31Z i44 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:45:04Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:49:45Z jackc_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T05:49:52Z jackc joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:51:35Z i44 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T05:53:47Z miala joined #lisp 2016-10-04T05:56:54Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-04T05:59:23Z flip214: that's too long a list, people won't read all of them 2016-10-04T06:01:43Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:03:09Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:06:16Z watersoul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T06:06:34Z watersoul joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:06:54Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-04T06:08:13Z myrkraverk: Is On Lisp still relevant today? 2016-10-04T06:08:15Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:08:19Z myrkraverk: I think I started to read it. 2016-10-04T06:08:25Z myrkraverk: But that was years ago. 2016-10-04T06:09:44Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T06:10:57Z _death: yes 2016-10-04T06:11:23Z blt joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:13:03Z i44 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:13:27Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:15:13Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:15:37Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T06:16:33Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T06:18:28Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T06:19:22Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:19:50Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:20:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T06:24:35Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:41:22Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:45:52Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T06:46:26Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T06:55:07Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-04T06:56:10Z vento joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:05:00Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:05:10Z DrCode quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-04T07:07:06Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T07:08:45Z myrkraverk: I think I'll restart On Lisp then. 2016-10-04T07:10:47Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T07:13:38Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:15:13Z loke: myrkraverk: It's not relevant. 2016-10-04T07:15:20Z loke: myrkraverk: And besides, I thought you knew Lisp? 2016-10-04T07:15:24Z beaky: nice im also reading it 2016-10-04T07:15:27Z beaky: or read it* 2016-10-04T07:15:30Z beaky: will reread 2016-10-04T07:15:35Z loke: On Lisp gives a lot of bad advice. 2016-10-04T07:15:46Z myrkraverk: loke: well, I know *some* lisp -- it's the macros I've never really gotten. 2016-10-04T07:15:48Z beaky: hmm any examples of that 2016-10-04T07:15:56Z loke: I'd recommend PCL followed by CLR 2016-10-04T07:16:02Z loke: Common Lisp Recipies 2016-10-04T07:16:24Z beaky: myrkraverk: have you read let over lambda its heavily focuses on macros 2016-10-04T07:16:25Z loke: beaky: Well, the main one is that it actually recommends using recursion to do loops. 2016-10-04T07:16:31Z myrkraverk: I've mostly finished PCL (not sure if I'll ever finish it, as I mostly just go to the chapters that seem relevant to what I'm doing) 2016-10-04T07:16:33Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:16:35Z beaky: ah i like recursion myself 2016-10-04T07:16:44Z beaky: is it bad 2016-10-04T07:16:46Z loke: beaky: Then Common Lisp is not the language for you. 2016-10-04T07:16:49Z beaky: :< 2016-10-04T07:16:56Z beaky: but i like common lisp 2016-10-04T07:16:59Z flip214: I don't know whether Loλ is really a recommendation for macros... 2016-10-04T07:16:59Z jackdaniel: I've found "ANSI Common Lisp" very good (especially thanks to the very well chosen exercises) 2016-10-04T07:17:02Z raydeejay: macros are nothing magical, once you can look at them as "compiler extensions" (it has quotes for a reason) 2016-10-04T07:17:12Z loke: beaky: Yes. CL implementations typically (and are not required to by the standard) does not eliminate tail-calls 2016-10-04T07:17:15Z flip214: it shows what can be done, but you still have to find out what _should_ be done 2016-10-04T07:17:30Z flip214: and that needs experience, in my experience ;) 2016-10-04T07:17:31Z raydeejay: loke: I thought that "most current implementations do" 2016-10-04T07:17:32Z loke: flip214: LoL is good for learning what not to do :-) 2016-10-04T07:17:42Z beaky: so LoL is a bad book too? :< 2016-10-04T07:17:46Z flip214: loke: well, you won't know that when learning macros, right? 2016-10-04T07:17:47Z raydeejay: I've read more than once as a reply to the claim of "no TCO" 2016-10-04T07:17:49Z beaky: everything ive learned is wrong :<< 2016-10-04T07:17:52Z jackdaniel: beaky: LoL is a good book for experienced CL programmers 2016-10-04T07:17:53Z flip214: beaky: "Land of Lisp" is a nice introduction. 2016-10-04T07:18:02Z White_Flame: All these books describe the language & features. It's just style that's being argued 2016-10-04T07:18:05Z myrkraverk: What book is CLR? 2016-10-04T07:18:08Z beaky: oh 2016-10-04T07:18:08Z flip214: "Let over Lambda" is for more experienced Lispers, IMO 2016-10-04T07:18:20Z loke: raydeejay: Not true. And the ones that do, only do so at certain optimisation levels. And it's impossible to predict when they will do so. And... Things like macros can suddenly make a tail-eliminated function be not tail-elimiated anymore. 2016-10-04T07:18:21Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: common lisp recipes - pretty recent one 2016-10-04T07:18:26Z myrkraverk: Ah. 2016-10-04T07:18:29Z loke: raydeejay: It's a _really_ bad idea to rely on it. 2016-10-04T07:18:34Z jackdaniel: I have a book myself - well written 2016-10-04T07:18:51Z loke: CL has a very powerful LOOP macro for a reason. Use it. 2016-10-04T07:18:57Z raydeejay: loke: well, if you try to use CL as if it was Scheme, you're doing it wrong already, nevermind what the compiler will do 2016-10-04T07:19:01Z jackdaniel avoids loop whenever possible :P 2016-10-04T07:19:13Z myrkraverk: I kind of like loop. 2016-10-04T07:19:16Z raydeejay: o// LOOP \\o 2016-10-04T07:19:18Z beaky: yes i avoid tail recursion when i can, using things like reduce or mapcar and etc 2016-10-04T07:19:27Z loke: raydeejay: Exactly. Nothing wrong with having a tail-eliminated function in there for optimisation purposes. It's using it (relying on it) for looping that is bad. 2016-10-04T07:19:36Z jackdaniel: it's a matter of personal taste I suppose 2016-10-04T07:19:52Z loke: beaky: Sure. but for the remaining cases you should use LOOP. 2016-10-04T07:20:04Z beaky: i like LOOP 2016-10-04T07:20:12Z loke: It is pretty awesome indeed. :-) 2016-10-04T07:20:20Z beaky: LOOP's loop is the best loop ive ever seen in my life 2016-10-04T07:20:36Z beaky: or in any programming language? 2016-10-04T07:20:41Z beaky: the ultimate LOOP 2016-10-04T07:20:43Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:20:49Z loke: beaky: I certainly can't think of any better one. 2016-10-04T07:21:13Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T07:21:17Z raydeejay: careful, someone will yell "ITERATE" and start a flame :D 2016-10-04T07:21:35Z jackdaniel: actually LOOP as defined by the standard has a few limitations (i.e it can't be extended, or more complicated examples doesn't have clear interpretation) 2016-10-04T07:21:55Z jackdaniel: many "loop"s can be extended though (as an implementation-dependent feature) 2016-10-04T07:22:21Z jackdaniel: iterate is a fine choice too :) 2016-10-04T07:22:22Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-04T07:22:34Z raydeejay: please, provide an example of extension! :) 2016-10-04T07:22:55Z jackdaniel: I'm not using LOOP enough to write such extensions myself 2016-10-04T07:23:07Z jackdaniel: I'd redirect you to SBCL manual, or loop source code :P 2016-10-04T07:23:15Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:23:55Z jackdaniel: also - it probably won't be very portable (on the contrary writing iterate extensions will be portable) 2016-10-04T07:24:01Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:24:06Z loke: I found one interesting issue with most implementations of LOOP vs. the spec. Consider the following: (loop for i of-type (integer 0 10) from 0 to 10 collect i) 2016-10-04T07:24:07Z raydeejay: ok, please provide an example of an iterate extension then 2016-10-04T07:24:10Z loke: is that valid code? 2016-10-04T07:25:06Z jackdaniel: raydeejay: https://github.com/sjl/cl-losh/blob/master/losh.lisp#L654 2016-10-04T07:25:14Z jackdaniel: (I'll be back in ~20m) 2016-10-04T07:25:32Z White_Flame: loke: is the issue that i goes to 11 to trip the loop exit? 2016-10-04T07:25:42Z Bike: raydeejay: crhodes' sequences extension has an example of extending SBCL loop (fig. 6 on page 10) http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/ilc2007/sequences-20070301.pdf 2016-10-04T07:25:50Z loke: White_Flame: Exactly. I spend some time reading the spec, and as far as I can tell, it should work. 2016-10-04T07:26:03Z White_Flame: the value of i as 11 should never be avilable to the programmer, though 2016-10-04T07:26:08Z loke: But no implementations that I found handle it, but who can blame them? 2016-10-04T07:26:11Z White_Flame: however, it would be available inside the loop implementation 2016-10-04T07:26:25Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:26:43Z White_Flame spent way too much time with BASIC as a kid to not see that boundary case ;) 2016-10-04T07:26:44Z Bike: (loop for x from 0 to 10 finally (return x))? dunno if that's allowed. 2016-10-04T07:26:53Z loke: White_Flame: It relates to the question as to what the following should return: (loop for i from 0 to 10 finally (return i)) 2016-10-04T07:27:04Z Bike: bam 2016-10-04T07:27:09Z loke: Strictly-speaking, the spec suggests that it should return 10. AFAICR. 2016-10-04T07:27:13Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:27:18Z raydeejay: thx 2016-10-04T07:27:26Z raydeejay will read those when he gets back from the school 2016-10-04T07:28:20Z myrkraverk: If I buy the ebook version of CLR, is it DRM free? (I don't want a DRM ebook at all) 2016-10-04T07:28:44Z loke: myrkraverk: Don't know. I bould the paper one. 2016-10-04T07:28:53Z myrkraverk: Ah. 2016-10-04T07:29:10Z myrkraverk: The FAQ says DRM free, so I'm considering it. 2016-10-04T07:29:16Z loke: I keep it next to my bed. I read it when I'm bored. 2016-10-04T07:29:52Z Bike: i hope apress got new editors since they printed coders at work 2016-10-04T07:30:05Z raydeejay: I need to declare my daughter with (SPEED 3)... always running everywhere :/ 2016-10-04T07:30:18Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T07:30:24Z loke: raydeejay: I suggest (SAFETY 3) 2016-10-04T07:30:37Z raydeejay: later, now I reaaaaally need the SPEED xD 2016-10-04T07:30:40Z loke: No, wait. (SAFETY 2) is probably enough. 2016-10-04T07:31:07Z loke: Give them computers with Minecraft. My kids hasn't moved in months :-) 2016-10-04T07:32:00Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:32:37Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-04T07:33:03Z i44_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:33:56Z raydeejay: I don't see my 4yo playing minecraft :D 2016-10-04T07:34:16Z loke: Why not? :-) 2016-10-04T07:34:56Z raydeejay: well, for starters, the keyboards matching her hand size are not quite meant for gaming 2016-10-04T07:35:37Z i44 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T07:35:49Z myrkraverk: I thought minecraft was mostly played with the mouse, but then I've never played it myself. 2016-10-04T07:36:03Z raydeejay: you need to, like, move, at the very least 2016-10-04T07:36:38Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-04T07:48:27Z beaky: how did lisps implement LOOP before LOOP 2016-10-04T07:48:43Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:48:51Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T07:48:54Z jackdaniel: beaky: SICL's loop is implemented using LOOP 2016-10-04T07:49:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:49:07Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-04T07:49:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:49:21Z jackdaniel: you could also implement simpler version of loop (i.e handling basic cases) and on top of that implement full loop 2016-10-04T07:49:29Z beaky: LOOP implemented with LOOP haha interesting 2016-10-04T07:49:31Z jackdaniel: or you may use other constructs, like DO 2016-10-04T07:51:27Z flip214: TAGBODY is a basic building block 2016-10-04T07:51:34Z loke: LOOP is generally implemented on top of TAGBODY 2016-10-04T07:51:45Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T07:51:46Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:52:47Z jackdaniel: actually MIT LOOP implementation use TAGBODY very rarely 2016-10-04T07:53:13Z jackdaniel: there is way more dolists, do's cond's etc 2016-10-04T07:53:45Z jackdaniel: but do is implemented using tagbody, so maybe you may count it that way 2016-10-04T07:55:47Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:56:03Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:56:27Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T07:56:35Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T08:00:39Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T08:00:57Z blt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T08:00:57Z flip214: which just proves (again), that JUMP is the root of all control structures ;) 2016-10-04T08:02:12Z Jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-04T08:24:43Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2016-10-04T08:35:45Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-04T08:39:04Z test1600_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T08:39:32Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T08:43:57Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-04T08:44:58Z harish quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-04T08:45:10Z i44_ quit (Quit: odo') 2016-10-04T08:45:16Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-04T08:46:19Z i44 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T08:48:28Z beaky: i thought it was lambdas 2016-10-04T08:49:11Z White_Flame: you still need some form of branch testing, not just a jump or call 2016-10-04T08:49:57Z raydeejay: I guess the point is that you *still* need jump 2016-10-04T08:50:20Z beaky: lambadas and the y combinator 2016-10-04T08:50:25Z White_Flame: jump is necessary but not sufficient 2016-10-04T08:50:26Z test1600_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-04T08:50:55Z raydeejay: but jump by itself is more useful than testing 2016-10-04T08:51:36Z jackdaniel: actually you can't express branching in terms of sole jump, but the contrary is possible (given enough memory and duplication) 2016-10-04T08:51:44Z raydeejay: meh 2016-10-04T08:51:45Z raydeejay: xD 2016-10-04T08:52:26Z raydeejay: "useful" 2016-10-04T08:55:31Z raydeejay is satisfied with the examples of extending LOOP 2016-10-04T08:58:29Z beaky: btw why does common lisp not mandate tail recursion, whereas scheme does? 2016-10-04T08:58:41Z loke: beaky: Many reasons. 2016-10-04T08:59:01Z raydeejay boils it down to pragmatism 2016-10-04T08:59:10Z loke: beaky: The most important one at the time (early 90's late 80's) was that existing implementations didn't support it. 2016-10-04T08:59:16Z beaky: i guess tail recursion is impossible on some platforms? 2016-10-04T08:59:19Z beaky: oh 2016-10-04T08:59:46Z loke: beaky: But you are right. Some platforms can't do it. For example ABCL would be much less efficient if it needed to support it. 2016-10-04T09:00:15Z Bike: turning it around, scheme needs tail recursion because there are no other iteration constructs. the need isn't as pressing in CL. 2016-10-04T09:00:31Z loke: beaky: Also, with expressive macros like CL's, you'd have a hard time knowing what forms would carry the tail-recursiveness of a form. 2016-10-04T09:01:05Z Bike: i don't think hygenic macros mean you can always tell tail position ness 2016-10-04T09:01:13Z loke: beaky: For example, would this be tail-recursive? (defun foo () (let ((X (Y))) ...)) 2016-10-04T09:01:45Z Bike: lisp just has a lot more constructs to define tailness for. like let, since you have dynamic bindings, yeah 2016-10-04T09:01:49Z loke: beaky: The answer is that there is no way of knowing. If X is a special or dynamic variable, a LET-form will prevent tail-recursion. 2016-10-04T09:02:24Z loke: beaky: It's a mess. So not supporting it makes for much less headache. 2016-10-04T09:02:29Z beaky: right 2016-10-04T09:03:35Z White_Flame: all that being said, I do use tail recursion and tail call optimization 2016-10-04T09:03:48Z Bike: well yeah. it's pretty sweet. 2016-10-04T09:03:58Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T09:04:06Z Bike: but in scheme it's a semantic requirement. 2016-10-04T09:05:38Z djh was reading that part of SICP the other day, it amazed me the way they could make tail recursion Just Work - I'd always assumed it was something that compiler had to look for and do special things to handle, not just something that could be made to happen by itself 2016-10-04T09:05:40Z i44 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T09:05:41Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T09:06:36Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-04T09:06:45Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-04T09:07:35Z yaewa joined #lisp 2016-10-04T09:07:42Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T09:07:53Z Jameser quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-04T09:14:27Z svgDelux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-04T09:15:11Z HeyFlash joined #lisp 2016-10-04T09:19:19Z Bike quit (Quit: unclean) 2016-10-04T09:20:12Z impulse- quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-04T09:30:59Z i44 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T09:32:41Z myrkraverk: Hmm, maybe I'll need to revisit SICP then c; 2016-10-04T09:33:02Z myrkraverk: I'll try to remember to include CLR next time I buy books. 2016-10-04T09:33:11Z myrkraverk: I don't think I want it in softcopy. 2016-10-04T09:33:25Z myrkraverk: Though I might be able to print it myself. 2016-10-04T09:40:01Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T09:40:19Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T09:41:59Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T09:45:20Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-04T09:45:28Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-04T09:45:50Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-04T09:45:58Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T09:46:19Z User39943 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T09:46:44Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T09:46:47Z User39943: Anyone have a link to a great website that teaches lisp for beginners? 2016-10-04T09:46:59Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T09:47:06Z djh: Which Lisp? :) 2016-10-04T09:47:12Z jackdaniel: programming beginners or lisp beginners? 2016-10-04T09:47:14Z User39943: CMCL? 2016-10-04T09:47:19Z djh: The PCL website? 2016-10-04T09:47:19Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-04T09:47:21Z User39943: CMUCL 2016-10-04T09:47:22Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-04T09:47:27Z djh: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2016-10-04T09:47:30Z User39943: lisp beginners 2016-10-04T09:47:31Z jackdaniel: minion: tell User39943 about gentle 2016-10-04T09:47:31Z minion: User39943: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2016-10-04T09:48:38Z User39943: thanks 2016-10-04T09:51:52Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T09:51:56Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T10:00:09Z User39943: I'm having trouble getting this code to work " (defun add-1-all (list) (cond ((numberp (first L)) nil)) (cons (1+ (first list)) (add-1-all (rest list)))) " It's a recursive function that goes through a list, incrementing each element (integer) in a list, and return nil if there is 1 or more non integers in the list. 2016-10-04T10:00:41Z lisp409 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:01:09Z lisp409 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-04T10:01:12Z User39943: It creates a new list* 2016-10-04T10:01:54Z User39943: I have a feeling the problem is with my cond 2016-10-04T10:04:04Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:04:35Z flip214: User39943: according to my copy/paste and editor, you close COND before the CONS. is that on purpose? 2016-10-04T10:04:52Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:05:01Z White_Flame: also, you don't say what it's doing or not doing 2016-10-04T10:05:20Z User39943: Yes, I figured it was necessary 2016-10-04T10:05:33Z flip214: User39943: figure again 2016-10-04T10:05:58Z flip214: and this function only _stops_ on the first non-number, ie. with input (1 2 3 "a") you'll get (2 3 4) out 2016-10-04T10:05:58Z User39943: hmmm, i'll take another crack at it 2016-10-04T10:08:33Z flip214: oh, and please use some paste service, eg. paste.lisp.org... would give us newlines, syntax highlightning, and a much more colorful look on the forms 2016-10-04T10:08:46Z User39943: will do, thanks 2016-10-04T10:11:21Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:12:59Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T10:13:07Z yaewa quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-04T10:13:22Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:14:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:15:30Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:19:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T10:24:38Z User39943: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327721 2016-10-04T10:25:01Z User39943: okay, I think I improved the code but not exactly the result I wanted 2016-10-04T10:26:00Z User39943: when i do (add-1-all '(1 2 a 4)) i get (2 3) instead of nil 2016-10-04T10:26:03Z flip214: what does it do, and what did you expect? 2016-10-04T10:26:11Z White_Flame: in any recursive list processor, you need to determine if 'list' itself is a cons cell, or nil 2016-10-04T10:26:21Z flip214: well, the "not numberP" check only returns NIL for the *current* iteration 2016-10-04T10:26:32Z flip214: it won't stop the _previous_ iterations 2016-10-04T10:26:35Z White_Flame: numberp checks the 'first' of the list, not list itself 2016-10-04T10:26:48Z White_Flame: but yeah, I guess because (car nil) -> nil, that could work 2016-10-04T10:26:59Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:27:12Z White_Flame: but wait, the requirement was that if there's anything non-numeric, the final return value should be nil? 2016-10-04T10:27:22Z User39943: yes 2016-10-04T10:27:42Z flip214: User39943: so, you need to process _all_ elements first, and discard the _whole_ result if there a non-number in it. 2016-10-04T10:28:32Z jackdaniel: maybe something like that? http://paste.lisp.org/display/327721#1 2016-10-04T10:29:10Z White_Flame: or do tail recursion, passing an accumulator between passes, so you can just return NIL instead or recursing if there's a non-number; return the processed accumulated return value if it hits the end of list successfully 2016-10-04T10:29:21Z White_Flame: s/or/of/ 2016-10-04T10:29:27Z flip214: jackdaniel: too early. 2016-10-04T10:29:39Z flip214: for the result 2016-10-04T10:29:52Z flip214: leave more time for thinking and trial&error 2016-10-04T10:29:53Z jackdaniel: I don't know what he wants to achieve honestly, just suggested way to get out of the recursion 2016-10-04T10:30:01Z flip214: too early 2016-10-04T10:30:04Z raydeejay: I realise that you are specifically trying to write a recursive function, but, that said, I would just do: 2016-10-04T10:30:07Z raydeejay: (LOOP :FOR e :IN list :WHEN (not (numberp e)) :RETURN nil :COLLECTING (1+ e)) 2016-10-04T10:30:33Z raydeejay waits for someone to point out flaws :D 2016-10-04T10:30:34Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: I don't think your parens are balanced correctly. rec doesn't have a body 2016-10-04T10:30:36Z jackdaniel: flip214: note, that its not final result, it will return incorrect result (because in the end NIL will be passed) 2016-10-04T10:30:37Z User39943: yeah, my professor doesn't want us using loop and for etc 2016-10-04T10:30:43Z raydeejay: bah 2016-10-04T10:30:51Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: yes, you are right 2016-10-04T10:30:53Z raydeejay: they might as well teach Scheme then 2016-10-04T10:31:15Z jackdaniel: I have edited it in listpaste buffer 2016-10-04T10:31:20Z jackdaniel: s/buffer/form/ 2016-10-04T10:31:32Z jackdaniel: s/form/textarea/ 2016-10-04T10:32:48Z flip214: User39943: well, the *typical* CL solution without LOOP would be entirely different... but that's not what this exercise should teach you 2016-10-04T10:32:51Z jackdaniel: corrected 2016-10-04T10:32:53Z User39943: I think my best bet at a solution, from what you guys are saying, is probably tail recursion (which I need to become better acquainted with) 2016-10-04T10:33:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:33:15Z jackdaniel: (cons a b) won't give you tail recursion 2016-10-04T10:34:09Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T10:34:28Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:34:41Z User39943: So... tail recursion is not the way? 2016-10-04T10:35:04Z jackdaniel: maybe it is, I'm just saying, that (cons form1 form2) can't be optimized to be tail-recursion 2016-10-04T10:35:14Z jackdaniel: because you need to cons the results of form1 and form2 2016-10-04T10:35:22Z jackdaniel: hence the call isn't in a tail position 2016-10-04T10:35:36Z raydeejay wonders if the course is specifically about Common Lisp 2016-10-04T10:35:40Z jackdaniel: I'm sure you can shape your code to be tail-recursive 2016-10-04T10:35:56Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:36:05Z White_Flame: more specific to your problem, returning (cons (calc-value ..) (recurse the rest)) will never return your escape value of NIL 2016-10-04T10:36:06Z jackdaniel: raydeejay: many things are just remotely "related" to CL, yet it's still on-topic 2016-10-04T10:36:35Z raydeejay: no, that's not what I mean, I will never yell 'off-topic' at someone talking about lisp* 2016-10-04T10:36:38Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:36:39Z User39943: would using a local function solve my problem? 2016-10-04T10:36:41Z jackdaniel: :) 2016-10-04T10:36:43Z raydeejay: I meant just what I said 2016-10-04T10:36:59Z jackdaniel: OK, I'm a bit too eager to overinterprete, sorry 2016-10-04T10:37:14Z raydeejay throws plush weaponry at jackdaniel 2016-10-04T10:37:39Z White_Flame: User39943: how much have you learned regarding tools to solve this problem? Tail recursion with accumulators passing all the state forward is one "proper" solution, using a LOOP-style iterator construct is another. 2016-10-04T10:38:01Z White_Flame: (with a break out from the loop if a non-number is encountered) 2016-10-04T10:38:15Z raydeejay: the former being idiomatic to Scheme, the latter being idiomatic to CL 2016-10-04T10:38:36Z flip214: (defun add-1-all (list) (if (every #'numberp list) (mapcar #'1+ list))) would work, but is not the point of the exercise. 2016-10-04T10:38:39Z jackdaniel: DO is a syntactic sugar for tail recursion, so I think it places itself in a middleground 2016-10-04T10:39:08Z User39943: accumulator... is that like a counter? 2016-10-04T10:39:29Z raydeejay: it's a place where you put the intermediate steps of the process, whatever the process is 2016-10-04T10:39:54Z User39943: we haven't covered mapping/maps yet 2016-10-04T10:39:56Z raydeejay: so you can then pass it to the next call 2016-10-04T10:40:25Z jackdaniel: User39943: I think you need to experiment with you code for a while 2016-10-04T10:40:26Z White_Flame: regarding "idiomatic", in an academic setting, there are idioms taught & expected that don't exist in the "real world" :-P 2016-10-04T10:40:26Z flip214: User39943: then try with a local function 2016-10-04T10:41:15Z User39943: k, I'll mess around with some ideas. Thanks guys 2016-10-04T10:41:24Z jackdaniel: User39943: listening various advices may just confuse you, because we know various terms and techniques you don't know (and using them will miss the point from the excercise point of view) 2016-10-04T10:41:32Z raydeejay: White_Flame: I take "idiomatic" to mean "what a person fluent in the language would write as the most straightforward way to do something", where "straightforward" means something like "the code strives to explain itself" 2016-10-04T10:41:32Z jackdaniel: good luck! :) 2016-10-04T10:42:17Z White_Flame: raydeejay: right, while some academics look to teach the most "pure" way to do something instead, hence barring iteration from this example 2016-10-04T10:42:54Z raydeejay: in which case, as I've said, they might as well teach Scheme, which is more "academically pure", if you want 2016-10-04T10:43:04Z White_Flame: yep 2016-10-04T10:43:10Z raydeejay doesn't want too use "academic" as a too pejorative term :D 2016-10-04T10:43:23Z White_Flame: and me using "some academics" 2016-10-04T10:43:26Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T10:43:51Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:44:24Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T10:44:46Z raydeejay: because it's a bit confusing to teach tail recursion, if that's the purpose of the exercise, using a language whose spec doesn't require it to exist 2016-10-04T10:46:23Z jackdaniel: knowing various concepts gives you often broader perspective 2016-10-04T10:46:34Z jackdaniel: which you apply indirectly to the way you think about problems 2016-10-04T10:46:41Z jackdaniel: I think it's very valuable 2016-10-04T10:47:40Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T10:48:35Z User39943: ugh, I accidentally stumbled across a promising solution online... now the dilemma I face is whether or not I use it... now that I have seen it it's glued in my mind lol 2016-10-04T10:49:08Z jackdaniel: turn off the website, make a tea 2016-10-04T10:49:19Z jackdaniel: take a walk and get back to the excercise *offline* ;-) 2016-10-04T10:49:25Z raydeejay: jackdaniel: I completely agree, but that doesn't invalidate my point 2016-10-04T10:50:24Z raydeejay: the exercise turns into an exercise into write code more complex than necessary while at the same time/because of fighting the language 2016-10-04T10:50:37Z jackdaniel: raydeejay: I think it is a proof of non-"academic" approach, where person who assigns the tasks knows, that the spec doesn't mandate tail-recursion, but many implementations have it 2016-10-04T10:51:00Z jackdaniel: very pragmatical 2016-10-04T10:51:17Z raydeejay: as long as they make sure to state that... 2016-10-04T10:51:54Z jackdaniel: teaching threads using portability libraries or bare extensions of the implementation does require such statements too? 2016-10-04T10:52:11Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:52:16Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-10-04T10:52:20Z jackdaniel: or teaching python at all, which does guarantee only what the reference implementation advertisesas implemented 2016-10-04T10:52:21Z raydeejay: it's not the same, I won't say "by large", but still not the same 2016-10-04T10:52:39Z raydeejay: I see some things to be taught here 2016-10-04T10:52:52Z raydeejay: one is concepts such as recursion, recursive functions, tall recursion 2016-10-04T10:52:59Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T10:53:13Z raydeejay: which you can then apply in almost any other language, I think we agree on that 2016-10-04T10:53:27Z raydeejay: the more you know, the more ways to look at things you have 2016-10-04T10:53:34Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:54:54Z raydeejay: another is to embrace the language, in this case when in Scheme write a recursive function, and when in CL throw LOOP at it 2016-10-04T10:55:55Z jackdaniel: I think sometimes you pick a language for a whole course and you teach various techniques in this language 2016-10-04T10:56:21Z jackdaniel: if you want to teach both recurrency and iteration, CL is a better choice than Scheme (assuming you don't want to mix different languages) 2016-10-04T10:56:30Z raydeejay: a third one would be to prefer writing expressive code (say what not how), which the exercise doesn't really focus on, assuming it is about writing a tail recursive function 2016-10-04T10:56:38Z raydeejay: all the "what" stops at the function name 2016-10-04T10:57:47Z raydeejay: agreed, as long as it is made clear that not all languages are equal and CL favours iteration over recursion, and then you ditch recursive procedures until you come back to them later when they are a better match for later exercises 2016-10-04T10:58:56Z jackdaniel: I think that the current CL community uses iteration more often than recursion, not that the language itself does that 2016-10-04T10:59:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-04T10:59:45Z jackdaniel: (and not necessarily) 2016-10-04T11:00:09Z raydeejay: I don't think the focus should be on what most people do, but on what's the most straightforward way to express something 2016-10-04T11:00:38Z raydeejay: do you agree that, in the general case, a recursive procedure in inherently more complex than an iterative one? 2016-10-04T11:00:41Z jackdaniel: then I say there is no "the most straightforward way to express things" from the objective standpoint 2016-10-04T11:00:51Z jackdaniel: raydeejay: absolutely not 2016-10-04T11:00:54Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T11:01:02Z jackdaniel: I can agree that in some cases it is 2016-10-04T11:01:06Z jackdaniel: and in some it is not 2016-10-04T11:01:22Z White_Flame: many, many times I've reduced complexity of some iteration that had tons of special cases into a nice neat set of mutually recursive functions 2016-10-04T11:01:23Z raydeejay: ok, I can work with that 2016-10-04T11:01:48Z raydeejay: actually I'm going to rephrase my question 2016-10-04T11:01:58Z White_Flame: if you're doing something simple, though, no need to go all Scheme on the problem 2016-10-04T11:02:08Z jackdaniel agrees 2016-10-04T11:02:08Z raydeejay: do you agree that recursion is inherently more complex than iteration? 2016-10-04T11:02:17Z jackdaniel: raydeejay: from what perspective? 2016-10-04T11:02:42Z White_Flame: I'd say no, more that the question is more of a non-sequitir than a falsehood 2016-10-04T11:02:52Z raydeejay: from the perspective of a procedure which involves itself, versus going through a sequence of things 2016-10-04T11:02:54Z jackdaniel: computation? yes. intelligibility? not so much. Do you think functions are more complex than gotos? 2016-10-04T11:03:10Z raydeejay: do you think they are not? 2016-10-04T11:03:11Z jackdaniel: I don't think that it makes using functions less favourable 2016-10-04T11:03:16Z User39943: what does the and logical operator do? 2016-10-04T11:03:25Z raydeejay: it's a matter of what they're used for 2016-10-04T11:03:28Z White_Flame: if you're doing divide-and-conquer, recursive can be much more straightforward and readable than iterative 2016-10-04T11:03:34Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-04T11:03:58Z White_Flame: some problems also lend themselves well to recursive solutions 2016-10-04T11:04:00Z raydeejay: User39943: returns the result of its last argument, as long as none of them return nil, in which case it short-circuits and returns nil 2016-10-04T11:04:32Z User39943: ah, thanks 2016-10-04T11:04:36Z raydeejay: White_Flame: I'm talking specifically about this problem, add-1-so-and-so 2016-10-04T11:04:52Z jackdaniel: raydeejay: the point of programming languages is to make things more intelligible, not faster. Assembly may be faster than any program (unless it's too complex, and programmer doesn't come up with an optimal solution) 2016-10-04T11:05:08Z raydeejay: jackdaniel: that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about 2016-10-04T11:05:08Z jackdaniel: lunch, see ya o/ 2016-10-04T11:05:24Z jackdaniel: maybe I didn't read you careful enough 2016-10-04T11:05:30Z raydeejay: for this particular problem you write a 1-line (if you like saving space) loop 2016-10-04T11:05:34Z raydeejay: not a recursive function 2016-10-04T11:05:48Z raydeejay: o/ 2016-10-04T11:05:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T11:10:53Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T11:10:53Z MolluskEmpire quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T11:17:48Z TMA: raydeejay: in a sense recursion is more fundamental. the tendency to avoid it stems from two sources: first the problem is poorly understood (or it cannot be expressed in a form that decomposes it into a simple case and one or more smaller instances of the same problem) 2016-10-04T11:18:27Z raydeejay: TMA: I'm talking in terms of how easy it is to explain to a human 2016-10-04T11:18:45Z TMA: raydeejay: the second source is that recursion incurs runtime penalty, even more so in absence of proper tail call optimization 2016-10-04T11:18:49Z loke: raydeejay: It's also easier to explain to a computer. 2016-10-04T11:18:51Z jackdaniel: raydeejay: I think your approach to it is opinionated (that loop is the most elegant here, or easiest to explain) 2016-10-04T11:19:20Z raydeejay: have you ever tried to explain both iteration and recursion to someone without previous knowledge? 2016-10-04T11:19:26Z raydeejay: not just commenting them, but with code 2016-10-04T11:19:36Z White_Flame: "easy" is always subjective 2016-10-04T11:20:34Z TMA: raydeejay: I would argue that recursion is easier to understand. 2016-10-04T11:22:15Z raydeejay: jackdaniel: it's one line of basically english, versus a whole recursive function 2016-10-04T11:22:27Z raydeejay: written in terms of how to do things 2016-10-04T11:22:39Z TMA: raydeejay: notwithstanding the case when the reader is unable to grok recursion -- but then you do not make people not able to comprehend fractions to compute logarithmic tables by hand 2016-10-04T11:23:09Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-04T11:25:36Z alexistp joined #lisp 2016-10-04T11:28:24Z raydeejay: TMA: I could say that that is sort of my point... I don't see how a recursive function could be written to solve this particular problem that is easier to read than (LOOP :FOR e :IN list :WHEN (not (numberp e)) :RETURN nil :COLLECTING (1+ e)) 2016-10-04T11:29:15Z TMA: raydeejay: instead of (LOOP :FOR e :IN list :WHEN (not (numberp e)) :RETURN nil :COLLECTING (1+ e)) I would do (mapcar #'(lambda (e) (if (numberp e) (1+ e) (return nil))) list) thus sidestepping the recursion in the other direction 2016-10-04T11:30:23Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-04T11:32:08Z raydeejay: *I* find it slightly harder to read because the loop form has a guard clause first, whereas in the mapcar it's further down 2016-10-04T11:32:37Z TMA: raydeejay: (block nil (nreverese (labels ((f (l a) (cond ((endp l) a) ((numberp (car l)) (f (cdr l) (cons (1+ (car l)) a))) (t (return nil)))) (f list nil)))) 2016-10-04T11:32:38Z raydeejay: but you could invert the condition, so I think that's what I'd do 2016-10-04T11:33:04Z raydeejay: I'm not even going to bother reading that :D 2016-10-04T11:33:33Z TMA: raydeejay: why bother arguing then? 2016-10-04T11:33:57Z raydeejay: I'm not even going to bother reading that because it goes, intentionally, in the other direction 2016-10-04T11:34:12Z raydeejay: who would write that and for what reason except to confuse someone else? 2016-10-04T11:35:48Z TMA: raydeejay: in a sense it is all optimization of (when (every #'numberp list) (mapcar #'1+ list)) 2016-10-04T11:36:39Z raydeejay: now that code is readable too, but it sets a bad example 2016-10-04T11:36:45Z TMA: raydeejay: the confusion stems from trying to do the check and the computation in one pass 2016-10-04T11:37:49Z TMA: raydeejay: would you care to elaborate? 2016-10-04T11:38:04Z raydeejay: the confusion stems because you have 15 different tokens in that (block expression), nevermind its length... 2016-10-04T11:38:33Z raydeejay: about setting a bad example? 2016-10-04T11:38:43Z TMA: raydeejay: the second 2016-10-04T11:38:50Z Grue`: it reminds me of some Scheme code i wrote for Animstack 2016-10-04T11:39:18Z Grue`: I can't even understand how its internals work anymore 2016-10-04T11:39:23Z raydeejay: xD 2016-10-04T11:39:43Z User39943: Ugh, I'm stumped on this second problem I'm working on. http://paste.lisp.org/display/327725 It should replace all element1 with element2 (even if one of the elements is a list, so a deep replace) 2016-10-04T11:39:53Z raydeejay: the bad example: (when (every #'numberp list) (mapcar #'1+ list)) goes over the whole list twice, potentially 2016-10-04T11:40:27Z User39943: No idea why it is not working right, it makes sense to me 2016-10-04T11:41:15Z jackdaniel: User39943: work on it a bit longer, I think you are very eager to search for clues outside :p 2016-10-04T11:41:41Z raydeejay: if it helps, you need to understand recursion to understand recursion 2016-10-04T11:41:47Z raydeejay: it will happen at some point 2016-10-04T11:42:03Z User39943: can I trace it in emacs? 2016-10-04T11:42:16Z jackdaniel: User39943: type (trace my-replace) 2016-10-04T11:42:18Z jackdaniel: should work 2016-10-04T11:42:23Z jackdaniel: on the next invocation 2016-10-04T11:42:26Z User39943: thanks 2016-10-04T11:42:35Z jackdaniel: sure :) 2016-10-04T11:46:01Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-04T11:46:22Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-04T11:49:34Z Grue`: User39943: you don't handle the case where the first element is a list 2016-10-04T11:50:47Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T11:51:58Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T11:55:34Z User39943: Grue': not seeing it :( 2016-10-04T11:57:14Z arduo joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:01:32Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:01:58Z User39943: Grue': Do you think my understanding of lists is my problem? 2016-10-04T12:03:21Z mc40 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:03:44Z raydeejay: try running (my-replace 1 3 '(1 2 (1 2 (1 2)))) by hand on paper 2016-10-04T12:04:19Z raydeejay: better yet (my-replace 1 3 '(1 2 ((1 2) (1 2)))) 2016-10-04T12:04:29Z mc40 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-04T12:05:11Z User39943: k 2016-10-04T12:06:58Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T12:07:06Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:07:25Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:11:18Z solene: how do you pronounce REPL in english ? "repeal" like "repeat" with an L ? 2016-10-04T12:11:49Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:12:06Z raydeejay: I pronounce it like "RE" in "red" + "PL" in "PLease" 2016-10-04T12:12:23Z raydeejay: well, with slightly more accent on the L 2016-10-04T12:13:00Z raydeejay: sort of like "rebel" 2016-10-04T12:13:52Z solene: raydeejay: sounds like how I pronounce it in my language 2016-10-04T12:14:43Z raydeejay: sort of like "apple" too 2016-10-04T12:14:46Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:14:57Z solene: raypple 2016-10-04T12:14:58Z solene: :D 2016-10-04T12:14:58Z User39943: Kinda struggling to solve it on paper doubt it's (1 3 ((1 3 (13)))) 2016-10-04T12:15:06Z switchy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:15:11Z raydeejay: no, not at all like raypple xD 2016-10-04T12:15:31Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:15:31Z raydeejay: consider what is the first thing you have to look for, concerning (first L) 2016-10-04T12:15:39Z fouric quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:15:48Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:15:50Z raydeejay: then consider what is the next thing you have to look for 2016-10-04T12:15:57Z User39943: oh! I forgot to see if it is equal 2016-10-04T12:16:13Z Kruppe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T12:16:17Z raydeejay: well, perhaps, but that's not the issue :) 2016-10-04T12:16:45Z sigjuice quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:16:48Z switchy joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:16:48Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:17:04Z User39943: perhaps an easier problem first lol 2016-10-04T12:17:14Z fouric joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:17:20Z User39943: so many ((( ))) lol 2016-10-04T12:17:51Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:18:33Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:19:04Z raydeejay: your COND is missing a clause 2016-10-04T12:19:05Z User39943: (my-replace 1 3 '(1 2)) would be (1 3) right? 2016-10-04T12:19:56Z raydeejay: yes 2016-10-04T12:20:03Z raydeejay: User39943: you don't handle the case where the first element is a list <- that one 2016-10-04T12:21:00Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:22:11Z anon1887 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:23:44Z User39943: hmmm, so tis '(1 2 (1 2 (1 2)))) is a list and an element? 2016-10-04T12:23:47Z User39943: *this 2016-10-04T12:24:29Z raydeejay: consider '((1 2)) 2016-10-04T12:24:47Z madbub joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:25:40Z User39943: it's a list of element (1 2), and inside that list is a list with elements 1 and 2? 2016-10-04T12:26:11Z raydeejay: it's a list of one element, which is a list, yes 2016-10-04T12:27:25Z User39943: oh so the elements for '(1 2 (1 2 (1 2)))) would be 1 2 , 1 2 1 2, 12 ? 2016-10-04T12:28:54Z User39943: (sorry if I'm a lost cause lol) 2016-10-04T12:28:59Z isoraqathedh: The elements are (1 2 (1 2)). 2016-10-04T12:29:06Z raydeejay: it's a list of length 3, whose last element is a list of length 3, whose last element is a list of length 2 2016-10-04T12:29:09Z isoraqathedh: Or rather, 1, 2, (1 2 (1 2)). 2016-10-04T12:29:45Z madbub quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T12:30:18Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:30:25Z raydeejay: what you "pass" to the next "call" of my-replace is (rest L), that is, L without the first element, so, when you get to the last element of the outer list, (first L) is a list 2016-10-04T12:30:26Z User39943: second to last is a list of length 2? 2016-10-04T12:30:30Z raydeejay: and you don't contemplate that case 2016-10-04T12:31:01Z raydeejay: second to last is the first 1, if you're talking about the outer list 2016-10-04T12:31:26Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:32:03Z raydeejay: wait... 2016-10-04T12:32:14Z tsabx joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:32:32Z raydeejay: second to last is the first *2*, if you're talking about the outer list 2016-10-04T12:32:48Z Xioouves joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:32:54Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2016-10-04T12:32:55Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:33:32Z raydeejay: Matryoshka dolls :) 2016-10-04T12:33:48Z isoraqathedh: Might be easier if you replace the last list with a # temporarily. 2016-10-04T12:34:59Z raydeejay: you have '(1 2 A), where A is '(1 2 B), where B is '(1 2) 2016-10-04T12:36:12Z User39943: yup, that is clear 2016-10-04T12:36:21Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:36:52Z raydeejay: ok, now consider and enumerate the four possible cases for (first L) 2016-10-04T12:36:52Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:37:22Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:37:25Z raydeejay scratches head and wonders about replacing lists but decides to forget about it for now 2016-10-04T12:38:19Z User39943: k, I'll try and tackle this code again, now that I have a better understanding. Thanks 2016-10-04T12:38:46Z raydeejay: o/ 2016-10-04T12:40:11Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:40:55Z Rajamaa joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:42:22Z `lain joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:43:42Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:45:15Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:45:18Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T12:45:40Z Fizzixnerd joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:45:54Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:45:58Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:50:33Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T12:53:29Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:55:28Z User39943: What does listp do? (is that even something I want to use?) 2016-10-04T12:55:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T12:56:07Z raydeejay: yes 2016-10-04T12:56:28Z raydeejay: try (listp 1) and (listp '(1)) 2016-10-04T12:58:45Z User39943: NIL and T 2016-10-04T12:59:49Z warweasle quit (Quit: The Brittish are coming!) 2016-10-04T13:01:31Z cromachina: you may want consp instead of listp if you are using it to test traversal 2016-10-04T13:01:54Z cromachina: because (consp nil) -> nil, but (listp nil) -> t 2016-10-04T13:02:19Z raydeejay: rrrrrrrright 2016-10-04T13:02:27Z raydeejay tries to burn that in his mind 2016-10-04T13:03:20Z User39943: wish I could use if statements lol, I feel it would make this easier 2016-10-04T13:03:20Z Rajamaa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:03:30Z cromachina: why cant you? 2016-10-04T13:03:43Z User39943: assignment does not allow it 2016-10-04T13:04:02Z raydeejay: you have cond 2016-10-04T13:04:06Z raydeejay: that's all you need 2016-10-04T13:04:10Z Rajamaa joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:04:28Z cromachina: you wouldnt happen to be taking an AI class at UCF, would you? 2016-10-04T13:04:42Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:04:57Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:05:10Z User39943: Nope, but I do take an AI class and a class called programming paradigms 2016-10-04T13:05:40Z cromachina: i recall the same bizarre restriction long ago 2016-10-04T13:05:44Z cromachina: but we could use cond 2016-10-04T13:05:58Z cromachina: i mean you have to branch eventually 2016-10-04T13:07:00Z User39943: yeah, my programming background is C , C++, Java, so lisp is definitely something new to me (feels a little alien, but I suppose it takes time) 2016-10-04T13:07:01Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:08:40Z cromachina: also helps to think of lists as their constituent cons cells, if they didnt already go over that here or in your class 2016-10-04T13:09:42Z raydeejay: yeah, but... hm 2016-10-04T13:10:08Z raydeejay: while I see the point of that restriction, the resulting code is not exactly pretty 2016-10-04T13:11:40Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:12:09Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:14:01Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T13:14:59Z User39943: Am I getting close so far with the following so far (cond ((listp L)(my-replace e1 e2 (L))) ? 2016-10-04T13:15:21Z User39943: That's the case that is a work in progress so far 2016-10-04T13:15:37Z cromachina: what is the objective? replacing every instance of something in a tree with another thing? 2016-10-04T13:15:47Z raydeejay: yes 2016-10-04T13:16:08Z raydeejay: I mean, yes that is the objective 2016-10-04T13:16:25Z raydeejay: and yes, User39943, you have to use listp but not on L 2016-10-04T13:16:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:16:33Z raydeejay: L is obviously a list 2016-10-04T13:17:00Z User39943: if i do first L, won't I end up hitting the same problem I was having before? 2016-10-04T13:17:03Z cromachina: a cons cell is a structure with two named slots 'car' and 'cdr' 2016-10-04T13:17:10Z cromachina: anything can be in either of those slots 2016-10-04T13:17:15Z cromachina: including another cons cell 2016-10-04T13:17:27Z cromachina: or nil, or another different object like a number or string 2016-10-04T13:17:40Z raydeejay: I don't think that's helping right now... 2016-10-04T13:17:48Z cromachina: what you are traversing is not a list, but a tree 2016-10-04T13:18:01Z raydeejay: s/listp/consp/ 2016-10-04T13:18:04Z cromachina: you remember how to navigate trees in java and C? 2016-10-04T13:18:14Z cromachina: binary ones specifically 2016-10-04T13:18:19Z deank quit 2016-10-04T13:18:32Z User39943: kind of 2016-10-04T13:19:31Z trn joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:24:31Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:25:02Z cromachina: the difference in say C is that you most likely have a structure that contains both branches and the containing value 2016-10-04T13:25:09Z cromachina: struct cell { int value; struct cell* left; struct cell* right; }; 2016-10-04T13:25:48Z cromachina: whereas in lisp, the analog would look like: struct cons { void* car; void* cdr; }; 2016-10-04T13:26:30Z cromachina: and now you have a magic function `type type_of(void*)` which can tell you the type of any arbitrary data 2016-10-04T13:27:32Z raydeejay: cromachina: out of curiosity, have you done any teaching, and if yes, of what kind? 2016-10-04T13:27:44Z cromachina: i was a TA in university 2016-10-04T13:27:46Z cromachina: that's about it 2016-10-04T13:27:54Z raydeejay: macroexpand TA 2016-10-04T13:28:02Z cromachina: teacher's assistant 2016-10-04T13:28:13Z raydeejay: ah ok 2016-10-04T13:29:33Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:29:49Z raydeejay: I ask because it feels to me like you're explaining it bottom up, and I think it would be better to explain in the other way around, since you don't really need to go into lists are special cases of trees which are constructed out of cons cells... 2016-10-04T13:29:59Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:30:21Z raydeejay: explain it* 2016-10-04T13:30:43Z raydeejay: not saying that I wouldn't go there afterwards 2016-10-04T13:30:57Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:31:13Z pierpa` joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:31:16Z raydeejay: the most important thing here is to figure out the COND clauses, then what to do in each case 2016-10-04T13:32:29Z raydeejay: "whats" instead of "hows", even when ironically the end product is "how to replace e1 with e2 in L", which we make a "what" by means of naming it 2016-10-04T13:32:32Z pierpa` quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-04T13:32:56Z User39943: which I am failing to do lol 2016-10-04T13:33:17Z raydeejay: have you figured out which four cases already? 2016-10-04T13:33:29Z cromachina: you should ask yourself 'what is L' during every recursive call to the function 2016-10-04T13:33:35Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:33:45Z User39943: 4? I thought there should be 3! lol 2016-10-04T13:34:16Z cromachina: and then 'what do i do when L is a list, and what do i do when L is the thing im looking for' 2016-10-04T13:34:28Z User39943: I should have a cond inside a cond right? 2016-10-04T13:34:29Z raydeejay: L is always a list 2016-10-04T13:34:36Z raydeejay: not necessarily 2016-10-04T13:35:05Z cromachina: not the way i would write it, i guess 2016-10-04T13:35:56Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:36:19Z raydeejay: I could show you how I would write it, but first you have to figure out those four cases, which are probably how the teacher intends you to write it, disregarding any respect for DRY :) 2016-10-04T13:36:43Z User39943: DRY? 2016-10-04T13:36:50Z otjura joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:37:13Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-10-04T13:37:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:37:35Z raydeejay: Don't Repeat Yourself, meaning for example if you have to say (first L) ten times across a function, do (let ((head (first L))) .... head ... head... head...) 2016-10-04T13:38:07Z User39943: ah 2016-10-04T13:38:09Z otjura: aref is the way to access array elements, right? but then how come when length array and array-dimension both return 7, aref array 7 nags "should be a non-negative integer below 7" 2016-10-04T13:38:39Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-10-04T13:38:43Z TMA: otjura: because the first is numbered 0 2016-10-04T13:39:01Z otjura: so it counts the same as in Java 2016-10-04T13:39:14Z otjura: I hate that so much lol 2016-10-04T13:39:21Z TMA: otjura: so an array of 7 elements has no element 7 2016-10-04T13:40:11Z dlowe: better to think of it as beginning of array + index instead of the indexeth element of the array 2016-10-04T13:40:21Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:40:37Z otjura: as I thought. any tidier way than always running it through minus one? 2016-10-04T13:40:50Z dlowe: in the same way, you'll find that (subseq s begin end) does not actually include the end'th element of array 2016-10-04T13:41:21Z dlowe: it's perfectly tidy if you use the same 0-index assumption everywhere 2016-10-04T13:41:27Z User39943: raydeejay: ((endp L) nil is one of the cases you are counting right? 2016-10-04T13:41:37Z arduo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:41:51Z dlowe: if you're comparing with the end, use (< n (length array)) 2016-10-04T13:42:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:45:58Z alexistp quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-10-04T13:46:13Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:47:59Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:48:22Z cromachina: here is my answer to the replacement problem, i would not look at it until you solve it yourself http://paste.lisp.org/display/327733 2016-10-04T13:48:26Z cromachina: anyway time for work 2016-10-04T13:48:26Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:48:30Z cromachina quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-04T13:48:37Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:49:36Z User39943: Thanks for your help, cya 2016-10-04T13:49:40Z Grue`: otjura: (loop for i from 0 below n el = (aref array i) ...) 2016-10-04T13:50:00Z Grue`: *for el 2016-10-04T13:52:25Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:54:46Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:55:01Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-04T13:58:05Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T13:58:07Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:00:03Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:01:21Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:01:26Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:06:01Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-04T14:07:38Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:07:51Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:13:01Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T14:14:33Z pierpa quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-10-04T14:14:52Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:15:38Z zaquest joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:17:35Z `lain quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:17:55Z Fizzixnerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T14:19:48Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:20:29Z trn quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-04T14:23:25Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:24:59Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:28:48Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:30:23Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:30:53Z `lain joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:31:35Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-04T14:31:39Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T14:31:51Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:34:42Z mk2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:36:27Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:39:20Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-04T14:41:43Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T14:41:47Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:42:50Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:43:32Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:44:24Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:46:18Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:46:19Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:46:35Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:47:09Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:48:34Z Rajamaa quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-04T14:50:18Z raydeejay: User39943: actually, looking at what chromachina wrote, yes, 3 cases 2016-10-04T14:50:44Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:50:49Z mk2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:50:49Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:54:17Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:56:05Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T14:56:18Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:57:41Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:58:22Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T14:58:32Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T14:59:39Z failproofwork joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:00:19Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:00:20Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:00:30Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:03:22Z mk2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:03:44Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:05:12Z Jameser_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-04T15:06:29Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:08:41Z mk2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:13:06Z Xioouves quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:13:42Z `lain quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:13:55Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:14:37Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:17:48Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:18:05Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:20:18Z mk2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:21:17Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T15:21:52Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:23:29Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:24:08Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T15:24:35Z axion: otjura: even tidier: (loop for i below n ..) "from 0" is implicit in this context 2016-10-04T15:25:36Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:28:30Z dlowe: (loop for el across array ...) 2016-10-04T15:29:18Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:29:25Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:29:27Z Xioouves joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:31:28Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:32:26Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:33:37Z madbub joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:34:35Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:35:06Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:39:31Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:47:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:47:58Z dim: another case of shared library hell in SBCL with pgloader: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/452 2016-10-04T15:48:10Z dim: I really wish we had a better story on that front 2016-10-04T15:48:22Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-04T15:48:26Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:48:30Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:49:24Z mordocai: dim: That's really just a general issue with shared libraries though right? I've had trouble with it with other langs, not just lisp 2016-10-04T15:50:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:50:41Z dim: I've never have so many troubles as with CL 2016-10-04T15:50:44Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:51:00Z dim: maybe debian has been very good at protecting me against those problems, tho 2016-10-04T15:51:57Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T15:52:09Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:53:08Z jasom: dim: if someone is missing libssl.so I don't see how cl+ssl can continue 2016-10-04T15:54:27Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-04T15:54:37Z dim: well it's installed in the system, just nowhere to be found... like /usr/lib maybe? 2016-10-04T15:54:54Z jasom: dim: the only reliable solution (and this is what steam does) is to ship all the required DLLs along with your package and wrap it with a script that sets up LD_LIBRARY_PATH 2016-10-04T15:55:01Z dim: anyway I need to be moving AFK again 2016-10-04T15:55:19Z jasom: the linux kernel is incredibly backwards compatible; linux as an OS ... not so much. 2016-10-04T15:56:03Z dim: just wanted to share my frustration I guess, it's been a couple of years now that pgloader in CL is getting used, and I still keep having those issue reports with the build environment not finding a .so, or the runtime not finding it although it's been built in the same machine, same terminal, same session, same everything, and it found it at build time 2016-10-04T15:56:05Z dim: anyway 2016-10-04T15:56:28Z jasom: yup DLLs are a pain in the rear 2016-10-04T15:56:47Z dim: jasom: interesting, I though that was only required on windows (where LD_LIBRARY_PATH equivalent always contains the path of the binary itself IIUC) 2016-10-04T15:57:17Z dim: I'd like to see how to do an SBCL build with those libs static linked and then have a pgloader build (save image and die) using that 2016-10-04T15:57:20Z jasom: dim: it is required less on linux because more software is installed through the system package manager 2016-10-04T15:57:27Z dim: but that's well over my head 2016-10-04T15:57:49Z dim: chicken and eggs problem of CL packaging & distribution then? 2016-10-04T15:57:54Z jasom: yup 2016-10-04T15:58:01Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T15:58:08Z dim: I'm late now, thanks for the interesting feedback on my frustrated message! 2016-10-04T15:58:13Z dim: see you! 2016-10-04T15:58:17Z jasom: l8r 2016-10-04T15:58:18Z jurov: libssl.so might be present, but lisp wants to compile in interface, no? 2016-10-04T15:58:37Z jasom: jurov: no this is specifically a dynamic loading issue, judging by the error message 2016-10-04T15:58:40Z jurov: so you need to install something like openssl-devel package 2016-10-04T15:58:56Z jasom: cl+ssl does not use groveling IIRC 2016-10-04T15:59:02Z HeyFlash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T15:59:22Z otjura: anyone paying attention to what this guy is doing? https://github.com/robert-strandh thoughts? 2016-10-04T15:59:45Z H4ns: otjura: he's called beach in this channel 2016-10-04T15:59:45Z jasom: otjura: he hangs out in #lisp under the name "beach" 2016-10-04T16:00:35Z otjura: he is creating SICL which promises to be modular implementation of CL 2016-10-04T16:01:17Z jackdaniel: otjura: parts of his work are incorporated for instance in Clasp (CL implementation, it uses Cleavir - SICL's compiler) 2016-10-04T16:01:37Z jasom: otjura: he has a lot of ideas for improving the lisp world; I also think he got an apprentice recently 2016-10-04T16:01:43Z otjura: cool 2016-10-04T16:02:07Z otjura: his commit history is pretty herculean 2016-10-04T16:03:18Z jasom: yeah, I want to be like beach when I grow up. 2016-10-04T16:03:47Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T16:05:55Z mordocai: jackdaniel is said "apprentice" 2016-10-04T16:06:28Z jackdaniel: am I? 2016-10-04T16:06:40Z jackdaniel: that would be cool :-) 2016-10-04T16:07:25Z fe[nl]ix: dim: by Christmas I'll have a way to build static executables with SBCL 2016-10-04T16:07:49Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:08:01Z fe[nl]ix: it's my project for the next months to fix that 2016-10-04T16:09:40Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:09:56Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: btw, do you perceive any problems if I'll try to build libfixposix as a static library and bundle it as ECL module during the compilation? 2016-10-04T16:10:00Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: does that include statically linking the .so files already used in the runtime? 2016-10-04T16:10:03Z jackdaniel: or it should be rather straightforward? 2016-10-04T16:10:13Z foom: fe[nl]ix: But it works already. :) 2016-10-04T16:10:17Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:10:35Z fe[nl]ix: foom: I want to make it easier 2016-10-04T16:10:57Z fe[nl]ix: ELF support and a link kit is the least one would need 2016-10-04T16:11:02Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T16:11:46Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: IOlib tries to dlopen libfixposix, so just bundling it won't work 2016-10-04T16:11:53Z foom: For building a static executable all you need is to build with relocatable-core, and build sbcl as a .a file...which commit to generate is still reverted, right? 2016-10-04T16:12:26Z foom: Don't need ELF-core support and all that other fanciness. Although that's all great too of course 2016-10-04T16:12:32Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: you need to change load-foreign-library to have a way to test that the library is statically linked, basically give it a symbol name as canary 2016-10-04T16:12:51Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: thanks, I'll keep this in mind 2016-10-04T16:13:02Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:13:06Z fe[nl]ix: foom: that's true, it was reverted because it broke Win32 2016-10-04T16:13:16Z fe[nl]ix: so we need somebody to look into that 2016-10-04T16:13:46Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: no, linking the static .a library, as jackdaniel suggested 2016-10-04T16:15:09Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: my dream is a set of scripts to automatically poll for Debian stable updates for a few key libraries then link them statically into SBCL, and distribute the binary 2016-10-04T16:15:11Z foom: After the ELF core work is done, then a follow-on change could be done to reference foreign symbols as symbols in the object file, rather than through dlsym. 2016-10-04T16:15:56Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: I'm mostly interested in bundling libfixposix and openssl. maybe a few others too 2016-10-04T16:16:20Z foom: Which would allow linking the final binary without either --export-dynamic or a long list of manually curated symbols to export. 2016-10-04T16:16:51Z fe[nl]ix: foom: yes, that's on my task list. and once that's done maybe we can have a compile flag to get rid of the linkage table 2016-10-04T16:17:20Z fe[nl]ix: I'm curious if one less indirection would provide visible perf improvement 2016-10-04T16:17:29Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T16:17:29Z foom: in foreign symbols? probably not 2016-10-04T16:17:42Z foom: For lisp calls, quite likely, though. 2016-10-04T16:17:55Z mordocai: jackdaniel: Yeah, I put it in quotes but I assume you are who jasom meant. 2016-10-04T16:20:19Z beaky: hello 2016-10-04T16:20:24Z beaky: when is the use of recursion justified in common lisp 2016-10-04T16:20:47Z PuercoPop: beaky: whenever you feel like it and your implementation supports it 2016-10-04T16:21:13Z dlowe: beaky: same justifications as in any language 2016-10-04T16:22:40Z mordocai: Yeah, good or not (depending on who you ask) tail call optimization isn't required by the standard so it depends on the implementation. SBCL implements it (but only at certain optimization settings possibly? unsure here) 2016-10-04T16:23:02Z mordocai: I think all the major implementations have a TCO implementation right? 2016-10-04T16:23:30Z oGMo: http://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html 2016-10-04T16:24:02Z oGMo: and not all recursive solutions are tail calls as someone probably already said 2016-10-04T16:24:06Z jackdaniel: even without tco most recurrent solutions will work 2016-10-04T16:24:06Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:24:36Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T16:24:40Z jackdaniel: (depending on the problem and memory :) 2016-10-04T16:25:06Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T16:25:17Z oGMo: yeah .. since CL handles non-recursive procedural code at least as well as any other language, recursion is just another tool 2016-10-04T16:25:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:26:19Z mordocai: beaky: I think the general rule many follow is to use whatever feels more natural for the code you are writing. 2016-10-04T16:26:28Z oGMo: if you have a heavy focus on deep, non-tail recursion, CL might be less suited 2016-10-04T16:26:54Z raydeejay: is recursion the topic of the day? :D 2016-10-04T16:27:53Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T16:28:54Z oGMo: not sure .. increment if it's the topic of the moment, and then check whether it's the topic of the rest of the day 2016-10-04T16:29:35Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:30:02Z Quadresce quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-04T16:30:29Z shymega quit (Quit: (DEFUN LISPISGOD () (LISPISGOD))) 2016-10-04T16:30:45Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:30:49Z sellout- quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-04T16:31:11Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:31:16Z shymega joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:31:59Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T16:34:31Z jasom: beaky: there are many algorithms for which the most clear and concise implementation is recursive, so it makes sense to use it then. 2016-10-04T16:34:53Z satok joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:37:26Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:38:32Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:40:47Z ggole quit 2016-10-04T16:42:33Z satok quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-04T16:43:06Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T16:44:26Z nzambe quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T16:45:55Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T16:46:54Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:47:59Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-04T16:48:01Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:50:00Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:50:14Z User39943: I'm having trouble telling if this is recursive or tail recursive http://paste.lisp.org/display/327742 , does anyone know? 2016-10-04T16:51:44Z User39943: I'm thinking tail recursive but... 2016-10-04T16:54:14Z User39943: I need to write a recursive and tail recursive function for fibonacci sequence but the code is so simple... seeing the line between recursive and tail recursive is merging... 2016-10-04T16:54:16Z jackdaniel: it isn't 2016-10-04T16:54:19Z mordocai: User39943: I'm far from an expert, but my thought is no because of having to keep all the values on the stack in order to add them. I'd wait for a more informed opinion though. 2016-10-04T16:54:38Z jackdaniel: mordocai: you are right 2016-10-04T16:56:08Z jackdaniel: also this is very inefficient implementation of fibbonacci, you should build it from the bottom 2016-10-04T16:56:17Z jackdaniel: or mitigate the inefficiency with memoization 2016-10-04T16:56:43Z User39943: was told to do it the text-book way even though it is stupid 2016-10-04T16:57:02Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-04T16:57:05Z jackdaniel: either way this is not tail-recursive 2016-10-04T16:57:10Z mordocai: User39943: I usually imagine what the stack will have to look like in order to figure out whether something is tail call optimizable or not. You can write it out too 2016-10-04T16:57:11Z User39943: k, thanks 2016-10-04T16:57:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T16:57:51Z User39943: mordocai: so i should be able to see whether or not it is by tracing it? 2016-10-04T16:58:03Z steventog joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:58:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T16:58:26Z mordocai: User39943: In CL it is going to depend on optimization settings in at least some cases. As far as generally you could see if these explanations make more sense than your teacher/textbook http://stackoverflow.com/questions/310974/what-is-tail-call-optimization#310980 2016-10-04T16:58:30Z jackdaniel: User39943: you need to ask yourself a question, if after calling the function something more has to be done with it 2016-10-04T16:58:49Z jackdaniel: for instance if you have (+ (fib 2) (fib 3)) ; then after finishing calls to fib, you need to call + 2016-10-04T16:58:56Z jackdaniel: so it can't be tail recursive 2016-10-04T16:59:39Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-04T16:59:59Z User39943: oic, thanks 2016-10-04T17:00:42Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:01:38Z PuercoPop: User39943: If you have some time, check http://fare.tunes.org/files/fun/fibonacci.lisp It shows how to 'fix' the implementation w/o changing the code as jackdaniel mentioned 2016-10-04T17:01:41Z rpg: User39943: Sometimes an "accumulator argument" can be used to transform a non-tail-recursive function into a tail recursive one. 2016-10-04T17:02:11Z rpg: But the fib function you have is more tree-recursive than tail recursive. 2016-10-04T17:03:18Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-10-04T17:04:22Z mordocai: For User39943's benefit (and my own future benefit), is there an easy way to test whether a function is being tail call optimized? Besides attempting to blow the stack? 2016-10-04T17:04:25Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:05:20Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T17:05:45Z jackdaniel: I'm not aware of such methods 2016-10-04T17:05:55Z jackdaniel: you may use disassembly to examine it by yourself 2016-10-04T17:06:29Z rpg: This would depend on the implementation. E.g., ACL has the :EXPLAIN pseudo-declaration. 2016-10-04T17:08:29Z rpg: I don't recall if SBCL emits notes. 2016-10-04T17:09:51Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:10:18Z madbub quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T17:10:20Z madbub_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:10:56Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T17:13:26Z mordocai: Yeah, I suppose dissasemble should work 2016-10-04T17:13:51Z jasom: quick question: is there any easy way to get cl-interpol to append the *list-delimiter* to a non-empty list? consider e.g. [foo, @{bar}, baz] which works if bar is non-empty but becomes [foo, , baz[ if bar is empty 2016-10-04T17:14:17Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T17:14:53Z jasom: User39943: you can make fibonacci tail-recursive, but you need to figure out a way to only have a single recursive call; it is possible, it's just very backwards from the natural way of writing it 2016-10-04T17:16:11Z phoe: jasom: not all that backwards, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22111252/tail-recursion-fibonacci 2016-10-04T17:16:18Z jasom: User39943: think about the fact that to get the answer, you only ever need the previous 2 values of fib; that means you can do it with 2 accumulators 2016-10-04T17:16:51Z jasom: phoe: it's backwards in that you build the sequence forward in your code rather than building it in reverse and relying on backtracking to move forward 2016-10-04T17:18:47Z jasom: phoe: with the natural definition the first two values you look at reading the code in order are fib(n-1) and fib(n-2), with the tail-recursive version the first two values you look at reading the code in order are fib(0) fib(1) 2016-10-04T17:19:40Z phoe: jasom: gotcha. 2016-10-04T17:19:53Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:20:01Z User39943: Really wish I got notes from 3 classes I missed while sick... there may be something I'm allowed to code that I'm not aware about.. 2016-10-04T17:20:41Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-04T17:21:27Z User39943: an accumulator is pretty much like a variable that stores values right? 2016-10-04T17:21:33Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T17:21:48Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:22:33Z mastokley quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T17:23:41Z rpg: User39943: specifically a variable that you use to do the accumulation so that you don't have to accumulate after return from a tail call (e.g., to avoid that + in the fib program). 2016-10-04T17:24:46Z rpg: Stupid example: (defun sum (list &optional (acc 0)) (if (null list) acc (sum (rest list) (+ (first list) acc)))) 2016-10-04T17:25:09Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:25:26Z jasom: I find the memoized version to be quite nice too. A nice example of how you can have identical code with different asymptotic behavior. 2016-10-04T17:25:43Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T17:26:12Z User39943: no idea what that &optional is... is it pass by reference? 2016-10-04T17:26:13Z rpg: User39943: Try doing (TRACE SUM) and then invoke that function with a list of 5 numbers. And hope I didn't make a typo! 2016-10-04T17:26:22Z jasom: User39943: it's an optional argument 2016-10-04T17:26:44Z rpg: 0 is the default value if the acc is not passed by the caller. 2016-10-04T17:26:48Z User39943: also I can't use if :( 2016-10-04T17:26:57Z jasom: User39943: defun (foo (&optional (n 1)) will have N as 1 if you call it like (foo) and N as x if you call it like (foo x) 2016-10-04T17:27:00Z rpg: User39943: can you use COND? 2016-10-04T17:27:04Z User39943: yup 2016-10-04T17:27:14Z rpg: OK, you can do that translation yourself. 2016-10-04T17:27:17Z User39943: k 2016-10-04T17:27:18Z jasom: User39943: COND and IF are trivivally convertable to each other 2016-10-04T17:27:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:27:44Z jasom: oops I had a paren in the wrong place 2016-10-04T17:27:51Z jasom: (defun foo (&optional (n 1))) 2016-10-04T17:27:53Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T17:31:17Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:31:22Z User39943: is &optional needed? 2016-10-04T17:31:53Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T17:31:55Z jasom: User39943: it is useful for tail recursion 2016-10-04T17:32:34Z jasom: User39943: consider the recursive list copy: (defun list-copy (l) (cons (car l) (list-copy (cdr l))) 2016-10-04T17:32:44Z jasom: oops 2016-10-04T17:32:54Z jasom: User39943: consider the recursive list copy: (defun list-copy (l) (if l (cons (car l) (list-copy (cdr l)))) 2016-10-04T17:33:11Z jasom: does that function make sense to you? 2016-10-04T17:33:31Z rpg: User39943: You could just have a helper function, instead of using the accumulator. (defun sum (list) (sum-helper list 0)) 2016-10-04T17:33:37Z jasom: if not, I can use a different example 2016-10-04T17:33:39Z rpg: s/accumulator/optional argument/ 2016-10-04T17:33:52Z jasom: oh, rpg used sum, I might as well use that 2016-10-04T17:34:26Z User39943: I can use local functions where appropriate it says 2016-10-04T17:34:36Z User39943: so I guess that means helper functions are allowed? 2016-10-04T17:34:54Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:35:09Z rpg: Local functions would be a helper function coded using LABELS (you can look that up in whatever manual you have) 2016-10-04T17:35:25Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-04T17:35:40Z rpg: minion: clhs labels 2016-10-04T17:35:40Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 2016-10-04T17:35:53Z rpg has no idea how to use minion 2016-10-04T17:36:01Z raydeejay: clhs labels 2016-10-04T17:36:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 2016-10-04T17:36:17Z User39943: k, I think the class may have covered LABELS, so I'll give that a shot 2016-10-04T17:36:19Z rpg: Like he said 2016-10-04T17:37:58Z pipping: jasom: are you doing any work on eclipse-lisp? You did file the only bug report it ever got. In 2015, though. 2016-10-04T17:38:44Z mordocai: User39943: Btw, where are you that they are teaching common lisp in class? I didn't know of anywhere that did that. 2016-10-04T17:38:57Z rpg: You can just write your two functions separately, and then figure out how to pull the helper function internally using LABELS. One thing at a time. 2016-10-04T17:39:03Z mordocai: In my area even AI is usually taught with Java ;( 2016-10-04T17:39:09Z pipping: (oh, and I just noticed you additional commits in your copy on github, too) 2016-10-04T17:39:14Z pipping: +have 2016-10-04T17:39:16Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-04T17:39:31Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:39:40Z Quadresce quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-04T17:40:05Z jasom: pipping: been too busy 2016-10-04T17:40:15Z jasom: pipping: I have one that compiles I think now in my fork 2016-10-04T17:40:35Z jasom: User39943: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327744 2016-10-04T17:40:54Z pipping: jasom: and it targets emscripten... so you mean to compile the C that the lisp is in into javascript? 2016-10-04T17:41:26Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:41:28Z jasom: pipping: that was the plan; it's just not working though. I got to the point where it compiles with no gc and runs to a REPL in native but not in emscripten. 2016-10-04T17:42:00Z jasom: pipping: I got pretty far, but it just hits crazy loops of errors when bootstrapping on emscripten; perhaps a setjmp incompatibility. 2016-10-04T17:42:14Z pipping: jasom: nice (the first part, that is) 2016-10-04T17:42:14Z jasom: I do not like the choice of ABI for emscripten *AT ALL* 2016-10-04T17:42:40Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:42:48Z jasom: it is so very very different from how any other modified-harvard or von-neuman machines work that C code is bound to run into problems. 2016-10-04T17:42:59Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:43:21Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T17:44:18Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T17:45:08Z jasom: User39943: sum with local helper-function: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327744#1 2016-10-04T17:45:43Z jasom should bookmark that paste; this seems to come up a lot 2016-10-04T17:45:59Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:46:05Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T17:46:20Z jasom is not fond of professors who decide that teaching a new language and recursion at the same time is a good idea, and since it's lisp, recursion must be idiomatic 2016-10-04T17:46:53Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:47:49Z oGMo: programming is taught poorly in general 2016-10-04T17:48:20Z raydeejay: it's more like barking, I'd say 2016-10-04T17:48:39Z jasom: teaching programming in a group is *hard* 2016-10-04T17:48:41Z pipping: raydeejay: pardon? 2016-10-04T17:48:58Z raydeejay: pipping: instead of teaching 2016-10-04T17:49:00Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:49:16Z raydeejay: jasom: teaching *anything* in a group is hard 2016-10-04T17:49:19Z jasom: I can teach anybody one-on-one in a manner proportional to their general intelligence, but doing the same with a group is beyond me; always end up with "haves" and "have nots" 2016-10-04T17:49:22Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-04T17:49:46Z oGMo: sure but it's mostly like "here is how you do in , now go write a program" 2016-10-04T17:49:52Z jasom: raydeejay: I can teach basic calculus or mechanics to a group of interested learners, but programming is much harder. 2016-10-04T17:50:14Z raydeejay: jasom: totally agreed on that 2016-10-04T17:50:18Z jasom: also it is insane that we have lectures in the day of youtube. 2016-10-04T17:50:19Z oGMo: there are a lot of improvements that could happen even before worrying about group difficulties 2016-10-04T17:50:37Z raydeejay: they're basically separate issues 2016-10-04T17:50:41Z jasom: let's have 500 people sit in a room staring at a professor for an hour; waste of everyone's time. 2016-10-04T17:51:02Z oGMo: jasom: those classes aren't the ones i'm talking about :P 2016-10-04T17:51:06Z pipping: jasom: by far not all lectures have that large an audience 2016-10-04T17:51:08Z User39943: jasom: WCUPA 2016-10-04T17:51:09Z oGMo: those are the "get rid of the people who can't keep up" classes 2016-10-04T17:51:26Z raydeejay: even a group of 25 is "hard" 2016-10-04T17:51:55Z raydeejay: even a group of 2 can be hard, actually :) 2016-10-04T17:52:03Z oGMo: right but the difficulties of such aren't even an issue at this point really 2016-10-04T17:52:36Z User39943: My university sucks 2016-10-04T17:52:48Z User39943: shuld've stayed at Penn State 2016-10-04T17:53:00Z oGMo: it's like "long-range electric for cars is hard" when you've got a horse and buggy 2016-10-04T17:53:05Z otjura: what's WCUPA? 2016-10-04T17:53:11Z jasom: west-chester university 2016-10-04T17:53:14Z User39943: West Chester University 2016-10-04T17:53:23Z jasom: why do I know that? 2016-10-04T17:53:34Z jasom: too much useless knowledge in my brain 2016-10-04T17:53:38Z pipping: raydeejay: you just need to make sure not to focus to much on either writing or speaking because one half of the students writes everything down and doesn't listen while the other half listens and doesn't write anything down. 2016-10-04T17:53:41Z User39943: Jedi tricks 2016-10-04T17:53:41Z otjura: what's that PA means in it? 2016-10-04T17:53:41Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:53:49Z User39943: the state 2016-10-04T17:53:54Z pipping: too much, even 2016-10-04T17:53:55Z jasom: otjura: pennsylvania(sp?) 2016-10-04T17:54:19Z otjura: oh 2016-10-04T17:54:36Z Th30n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T17:54:52Z jasom is going to add the spelling of "Pennsylvania" to list of things I wish my brain didn't waste resources on. 2016-10-04T17:55:09Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-04T17:56:23Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: Penn + Sylvania 2016-10-04T17:56:42Z fe[nl]ix: Mr. Penn's forest world 2016-10-04T17:57:42Z miala quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T17:57:49Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:02:12Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-04T18:04:02Z User39943: My university doesn't even require students to take Calculus 2, 3, and linear algebra.... 2016-10-04T18:04:32Z jasom: I don't think CS required linear-algebra at my school either, but I switched in from physics so already had it 2016-10-04T18:05:17Z failproofwork quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T18:05:29Z User39943: i took calculus 2... almost all students take statistics 2 instead (easy supposedly) 2016-10-04T18:05:56Z User39943: kinda wish I could continue advancing my knowledge of mathematics 2016-10-04T18:06:46Z User39943: I'm doing poorly in physics at the moment lol 2016-10-04T18:07:08Z User39943: funny thing is it's algebra level physics and I got A's in calc 1 and 2 2016-10-04T18:07:34Z User39943: I should've picked calc based physics instead perhaps 2016-10-04T18:07:36Z jasom: I'm going to call us way off-topic now 2016-10-04T18:07:46Z User39943: oh, true lol, my bad 2016-10-04T18:07:56Z jasom started it 2016-10-04T18:08:14Z mordocai: User39943: #lispcafe if you want to continue 2016-10-04T18:09:36Z User39943: I'm good :0, thanks though. I'm going to take a break from this tail recursion stuff 2016-10-04T18:09:45Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T18:10:29Z jasom: the other option is to make it on-topic; create a lisp program that determines the optimal math classes to take for the union of the knowledge you desire and the school requirements 2016-10-04T18:10:47Z Xioouves quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T18:19:39Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T18:21:00Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:21:01Z mastokley quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-04T18:21:25Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:21:32Z Anselmo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T18:21:50Z attila_lendvai left #lisp 2016-10-04T18:22:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:26:27Z Anselmo joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:27:30Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-04T18:30:15Z raydeejay is cooking 2016-10-04T18:32:29Z Xioouves joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:34:20Z ln joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:36:45Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:38:09Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:40:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:43:53Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T18:44:17Z Anselma joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:46:27Z ln left #lisp 2016-10-04T18:47:03Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-04T18:47:26Z Anselmo quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-10-04T18:47:51Z Anselmo joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:47:58Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T18:48:22Z Anselmo quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-04T18:49:40Z pratch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T18:52:26Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:54:30Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T18:55:58Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-04T18:56:07Z Anselma is now known as Anselmo 2016-10-04T18:58:24Z warweasle quit (Quit: meh) 2016-10-04T18:58:38Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T19:00:23Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:02:21Z akkad: is there an equivalent to with-hash-table-locked in sbcl? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/LW/html/lw-649.htm#20054 2016-10-04T19:03:59Z Bike: sb-ext:with-locked-hash-table. sbcl also has a :synchronized option to make-hash-table 2016-10-04T19:04:14Z akkad: ahh perfect thanks. 2016-10-04T19:04:26Z jasom: akkad: :synchronized makes it safe with multiple concurrent writers, but doesn't do any exclusion beyond that 2016-10-04T19:05:31Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:05:34Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:05:52Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:05:56Z jasom: akkad: also read the description of with-locked-hash-table in the manual; it works differently depending on whether or not the hash-table is synchronized 2016-10-04T19:06:29Z jasom: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Hash-Table-Extensions 2016-10-04T19:09:18Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:10:05Z shrdlu68: Hi. Must class accessors be exported to be usable outside a package? 2016-10-04T19:10:38Z jasom: shrdlu68: well it certainly makes it easier 2016-10-04T19:10:47Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: no, not exported symbols are available with package::symbol 2016-10-04T19:10:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-04T19:11:12Z Xioouves quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T19:11:14Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-04T19:11:16Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:11:26Z jackdaniel: but if you want to make them part of the API, you should export them 2016-10-04T19:11:45Z jasom: shrdlu68: the name of most things in lisp are not strings but symbols; this includes functions (and accessors are just a specific type of function). 2016-10-04T19:12:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:12:31Z raydeejay can't help a chuckle every time someone writes "api", since "api" means celery in Catalan 2016-10-04T19:13:26Z jackdaniel: strings are a kind of pants, but it's not funny after all that time ;) 2016-10-04T19:13:41Z Xioouves joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:13:49Z jackdaniel: s/pants/knickers/ 2016-10-04T19:15:23Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T19:16:37Z shrdlu68: jasom: jackdaniel Well, I'm trying to specialize a method in cl-xmpp and I'm getting The symbol "TYPE-" is not external in the CL-XMPP package. 2016-10-04T19:16:56Z shrdlu68: jasom: jackdaniel Here: http://vhbin.net/tf82k3g96cbt 2016-10-04T19:16:57Z fe[nl]ix: raydeejay: and it means "bees" in Italian 2016-10-04T19:17:16Z raydeejay: api-culture \o/ 2016-10-04T19:17:27Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: (defmethod cl-xmpp::handle …) should fix it 2016-10-04T19:17:38Z fe[nl]ix: raydeejay: indeed, it's Latin 2016-10-04T19:17:52Z jackdaniel: but keep in mind, that handle isn't part of the BEES, so it may change at any time ;) 2016-10-04T19:18:00Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:19:28Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T19:19:45Z schjetne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T19:20:59Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:21:08Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:21:13Z Xioouves quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-04T19:21:16Z jasom: shrdlu68: cl-xmpp::handle then ; perhaps also ask the maintainer of cl-xmpp if that accessor is supposed to be public 2016-10-04T19:22:13Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:22:23Z madbub_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T19:23:36Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-04T19:23:52Z madbub joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:23:54Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-04T19:24:46Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:25:18Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: It doesn't, same error. 2016-10-04T19:25:35Z jackdaniel: same error that is what error? 2016-10-04T19:26:11Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:26:38Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: "The symbol "TYPE-" is not external in the CL-XMPP package." 2016-10-04T19:26:57Z jackdaniel: then prefix type- with double colon 2016-10-04T19:27:02Z jackdaniel: cl-xmpp::type- 2016-10-04T19:27:10Z jackdaniel: handle is probably exported in that case 2016-10-04T19:27:28Z jackdaniel: whatever is before the ":" means the package, and what is after, is symbol in this package 2016-10-04T19:27:56Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-04T19:28:05Z jackdaniel: if you have error that something is not external in cl-xmpp, you may force accessing this symbol by using "::" accessor, so if the symbol is present in the package (not necessarily exported) then you'll be able to access it 2016-10-04T19:28:51Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: Ah, thanks. 2016-10-04T19:28:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:28:59Z jackdaniel: sure :) 2016-10-04T19:29:02Z jackdaniel: good night o/ 2016-10-04T19:29:19Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-04T19:32:16Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T19:32:23Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:34:12Z jasom: \o 2016-10-04T19:34:56Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-04T19:35:18Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-04T19:37:45Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:37:52Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:39:10Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:40:32Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T19:44:02Z Xioouves joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:44:54Z dyelar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T19:45:05Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-04T19:45:47Z failproofwork joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:46:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:46:19Z steventog: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-10-04T19:47:54Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:48:26Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-04T19:48:26Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:49:22Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-04T19:49:49Z pipping: steventog: in an on-topic kind of way? 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joined #lisp 2016-10-05T01:20:29Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-05T01:21:47Z DotsAreLegion is now known as tsabx 2016-10-05T01:23:53Z JohnMcClain joined #lisp 2016-10-05T01:27:52Z User39943 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T01:29:12Z User39943: Shouldn't " if " and " cond " be completely interchangeable? my code only seems to work when I use if instead of cond 2016-10-05T01:29:58Z rpg: They are syntactically different, but you should be able to say the same thing in either form. 2016-10-05T01:30:14Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-05T01:33:04Z User39943: hmmm, I tried various things to try and get cond to work. Here is my code http://paste.lisp.org/display/327761 2016-10-05T01:33:26Z User39943: Any tips would be greatly appreciated 2016-10-05T01:33:51Z rpg: Why don't you jam in the COND code that you think should work, but doesn't? 2016-10-05T01:34:04Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-05T01:34:07Z User39943: k, will do 2016-10-05T01:38:09Z holycow joined #lisp 2016-10-05T01:41:24Z User39943: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327762 2016-10-05T01:42:49Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-05T01:47:02Z rpg: yeah, that syntax is wrong. 2016-10-05T01:47:18Z rpg: COND doesn't have an ELSE like IF does. 2016-10-05T01:47:30Z rpg: clhs cond 2016-10-05T01:47:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm 2016-10-05T01:47:58Z User39943: oh crap.... I must be tired lol 2016-10-05T01:48:20Z rpg: Look at the example on that page, and read the grammar carefully. COND has a bunch of clauses, one for each branch, and each clause is of the form (TEST FORM*) 2016-10-05T01:48:22Z User39943: I'll try again. I should have it this time lol 2016-10-05T01:48:49Z holycow: . 2016-10-05T01:48:50Z rpg: and conventionally you write the ELSE part like they do in the example on that page, with a test that is T. 2016-10-05T01:49:19Z User39943: Thanks 2016-10-05T01:54:08Z User39943: Got it :0 2016-10-05T01:57:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-05T02:02:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T02:09:10Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-05T02:10:16Z JohnMcClain quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-05T02:12:39Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-05T02:13:46Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-05T02:18:29Z User39943 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T02:28:52Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-05T02:32:53Z tokik quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-05T02:34:10Z tokik joined #lisp 2016-10-05T02:34:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-05T02:35:14Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-05T02:39:02Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-05T02:39:32Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T02:39:59Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T02:45:26Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T02:47:45Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T02:47:59Z fluter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T02:48:53Z titankiller quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T02:49:26Z freedom01 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-05T02:52:11Z akkad: what is a #()? a vector? 2016-10-05T02:52:34Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-05T02:52:50Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T02:52:52Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T02:54:06Z Bike: yes 2016-10-05T02:54:08Z Bike: clhs #( 2016-10-05T02:54:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm 2016-10-05T02:54:57Z Bike: huh, #7(a) => #(a a a a a a a). did not know. 2016-10-05T03:06:26Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T03:08:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-05T03:12:11Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T03:14:17Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T03:19:33Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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"If the number of objects supplied before the closing ) is less than the unsigned decimal integer but greater than zero, the last object is used to fill all remaining elements of the vector." 2016-10-05T04:03:35Z Bike: i mean i have no idea what the point of that is. 2016-10-05T04:03:35Z loke: Oh wait. I read that as #7a(a) 2016-10-05T04:03:42Z Bike: oh yeah nah. 2016-10-05T04:04:04Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-05T04:04:21Z loke: I can see how #10(1) could be useful 2016-10-05T04:04:34Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-05T04:06:46Z beaky: are reader macros like javascript's template strings? 2016-10-05T04:07:01Z frgo__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T04:07:05Z beaky: (or are they like ordinary macros, except char-based rather than list-based) 2016-10-05T04:07:25Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-05T04:07:58Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-05T04:07:59Z Bike: they're not much like regular macros and... t hey don't seem like template literals either. 2016-10-05T04:08:05Z mk2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T04:08:22Z Bike: simplifying, when the reader sees #( it calls a function that reads the rest of the atom. it can do arbitrary stuff. 2016-10-05T04:09:27Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T04:10:31Z beaky: "arbitrary stuff" sounds fun :D 2016-10-05T04:11:14Z Bike: it cou ld be, or it could be boring. arbitrary! 2016-10-05T04:12:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: add some calls to #'random and it can be both 2016-10-05T04:19:32Z beaky: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/VrcXtRUx43M/Yu5w_7lEB6wJ hmm this kind of usage is the most impressive thing i've seen possible in lisp 2016-10-05T04:19:54Z beaky: typed literals 2016-10-05T04:22:29Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T04:23:20Z holycow quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-05T04:23:43Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-05T04:25:33Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T04:26:43Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-05T04:27:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: beaky: You can already get the same behavior with a macro. Of course, the reader macro is cleaner. 2016-10-05T04:27:46Z beaky: ye i guess it seems objectionable when the most common way to do this is something like (make-ipv4 "192.168.1.100/28") 2016-10-05T04:28:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Which works fine until someone tries to (mapcar #'make-ipv4 lst) 2016-10-05T04:32:25Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-05T04:33:37Z beaky: hmm why wont that work 2016-10-05T04:35:51Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T04:37:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: beaky: If it's a function, it works fine, but then you don't have compile time type checking. 2016-10-05T04:37:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: If it's a macro, it fails, but then you have compile time type checking. 2016-10-05T04:37:43Z beaky: ooh 2016-10-05T04:37:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T04:37:57Z beaky is enlgihtened 2016-10-05T04:38:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Both versions would be good, but then someone has to know they both exist and which to use. One version that can tell if the value inside can be determined at compile time would be ideal. 2016-10-05T04:41:24Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-05T04:42:35Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T04:47:28Z i44 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T04:48:23Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-05T04:51:18Z pillton: That is what compiler macros are for. 2016-10-05T04:51:26Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-05T04:52:43Z loke: It's not like you can MAPCAR a reader macro either. 2016-10-05T04:55:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: But no one would ever try to mapcar a reader macro. 2016-10-05T04:56:42Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:02:10Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb) 2016-10-05T05:03:07Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-05T05:03:21Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:03:43Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:05:21Z Intensity quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T05:19:02Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T05:19:25Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:20:32Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:21:10Z vento left #lisp 2016-10-05T05:23:21Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T05:25:06Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T05:25:33Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:26:04Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:26:08Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:26:37Z mbuf left #lisp 2016-10-05T05:27:50Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T05:28:23Z Intensity joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:30:18Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T05:30:43Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:33:43Z rageoholic joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:33:51Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T05:34:19Z rageoholic left #lisp 2016-10-05T05:34:27Z MolluskEmpire quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T05:34:29Z rageoholic joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:34:50Z voids joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:35:36Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:35:58Z rageoholic quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-05T05:37:29Z tsabx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-05T05:37:30Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-05T05:37:56Z rageoholic joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:37:56Z rageoholic: join #lisp 2016-10-05T05:38:57Z rageoholic left #lisp 2016-10-05T05:42:21Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-05T05:44:11Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-05T05:44:24Z phoe: Petit_Dejeuner: (mapcar # ('(1 2 3) '(4 5 6) '(7 8 9))) 2016-10-05T05:44:28Z phoe: I want arrays!!1 2016-10-05T05:44:31Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:44:44Z phoe: if I mapcar a # onto a '(1 2 3) I get #(1 2 3), right? 2016-10-05T05:45:17Z phoe ducks and runs off for university 2016-10-05T05:45:23Z loke: phoe: What is it you want to do? 2016-10-05T05:45:43Z phoe: loke: 2016-10-05T05:45:44Z phoe: < Petit_Dejeuner> But no one would ever try to mapcar a reader macro. 2016-10-05T05:45:48Z loke: (map 'array #'make-array '(1 2 3) '(3 4 5)) 2016-10-05T05:46:11Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T05:46:25Z loke: Ah 2016-10-05T05:46:36Z p_l joined #lisp 2016-10-05T05:46:49Z phoe: or (mapcar ' ...) for quoting multiple values at once 2016-10-05T05:46:54Z phoe: The possibilities are endless. 2016-10-05T05:46:58Z loke: I meant (map 'vector #'vector '((1 2 3) (3 4 5))) 2016-10-05T05:47:11Z phoe runs off 2016-10-05T05:47:12Z Bike: irony is harsh. 2016-10-05T05:47:24Z loke: phoe: That sounds pretty awesome 2016-10-05T05:47:47Z loke: Sounds like something Picolisp would do 2016-10-05T05:48:08Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-05T05:48:11Z Bike: just need to take all these things and not evaluate them 2016-10-05T05:49:01Z loke: Bike: Fexprs? 2016-10-05T05:49:22Z Bike: nah. mapping quote is mapping nothing. 2016-10-05T05:49:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: (mapcar quote (list (+ 1 2) (+ 3 4))) 2016-10-05T05:50:04Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: What would you expect that to return? 2016-10-05T05:50:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke: Obviously '((+ 1 2) (+ 3 4)) 2016-10-05T05:50:27Z Bike: you could phrase it as fexprs. whatchamacallit defines map in terms of apply, and apply is (eval (cons (unwrap app) args) nowhere). (unwrap identity) is $quote. 2016-10-05T05:50:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: what else? 2016-10-05T05:51:05Z Bike: i guess you could do that with call-by-name. 2016-10-05T05:51:44Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T05:55:07Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T05:56:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:00:37Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T06:00:48Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:01:06Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T06:03:52Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:04:54Z lisp655 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:06:55Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-05T06:21:54Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:22:45Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:22:50Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:24:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T06:26:59Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:27:53Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T06:28:05Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:32:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T06:37:04Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:38:16Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:43:24Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:52:45Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:53:24Z trn joined #lisp 2016-10-05T06:55:13Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T06:57:57Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:02:40Z anquegi joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:03:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T07:04:32Z steventog quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-05T07:04:48Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:04:57Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:05:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:09:00Z myrkraverk: LET or any variant does not allow me to access multiple values, does it? 2016-10-05T07:09:25Z myrkraverk: I have to use (let ((...)) (mulitiple-value-bind ...)) or something, right? 2016-10-05T07:10:06Z Bike: yes 2016-10-05T07:10:24Z Bike: there are various combined binding macros in libraries if you want 2016-10-05T07:13:53Z myrkraverk: Hmm. 2016-10-05T07:14:19Z loke: myrkraverk: Well, you'd use M-V-B in place of LET. 2016-10-05T07:18:53Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:18:59Z myrkraverk: I thought I could only bind one form the m-v-b. 2016-10-05T07:19:10Z myrkraverk: So for the other stuff, I've been using let. 2016-10-05T07:19:11Z lexicall: well how can I coerce a pathname into string? 2016-10-05T07:19:24Z pillton: lexicall: namestring 2016-10-05T07:19:39Z trn quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-05T07:19:42Z lexicall: pillton: thanks 2016-10-05T07:20:12Z pillton: clhs namestring 2016-10-05T07:20:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm 2016-10-05T07:20:29Z lexicall: got that. 2016-10-05T07:20:41Z pillton: lexicall: There are other very useful functions on the above link. e.g. directory-namestring. 2016-10-05T07:20:51Z pillton: ..and enough-namestring. 2016-10-05T07:21:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:21:14Z lexicall: pillton: alright I'll check them. 2016-10-05T07:21:42Z lisp655 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-05T07:21:51Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:21:54Z waynecolvin joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:27:27Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T07:29:49Z myrkraverk: Is SBCL's make-alien-string buggy? 2016-10-05T07:30:02Z myrkraverk: I thought it was supposed to return multiple values, the SAP and the length. 2016-10-05T07:30:08Z myrkraverk: but all I seem to get is the SAP and NIL. 2016-10-05T07:31:47Z myrkraverk: (multiple-value-bind (b l) (make-alien-string "foo") (format t "~a ~a~%" b l)) ; --> SAP NIL 2016-10-05T07:32:05Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T07:32:29Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:32:41Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:33:41Z Bike: the source expects %make-alien-string to return two values but it doesn't... 2016-10-05T07:34:48Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:36:22Z myrkraverk: Oh, great. 2016-10-05T07:36:49Z myrkraverk: And while I can in theory fix that -- something is broken on my system and compiling SBCL fails. 2016-10-05T07:37:15Z Bike: you already asked 3sbcl, they'll work it out. 2016-10-05T07:37:51Z myrkraverk: Yeah, they'll work it out -- but for me to get the fix is going to be hard when I can't seem to compile SBCL on my own. 2016-10-05T07:38:57Z myrkraverk: Unless I figure out what's broken on my system -- but I didn't really want to do all that yak shaving. 2016-10-05T07:40:23Z Bike: you could use cffi:foreign-string-alloc 2016-10-05T07:41:11Z Bike: or do it yourself with a bunch of alien-sap crap 2016-10-05T07:41:13Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-05T07:41:53Z myrkraverk: Well, the idea behind using SBCL directly was to get the length of the string automagically. 2016-10-05T07:42:18Z myrkraverk: And according to docs, cffi:foreign-string-alloc doesn't return the length either. 2016-10-05T07:42:56Z Bike: i'm lookin at the code, it says (values ptr length) right there 2016-10-05T07:43:09Z myrkraverk: Ah, the docs don't say anything about the length. 2016-10-05T07:43:19Z Bike: indeed not. sad 2016-10-05T07:43:29Z myrkraverk: Yeah. 2016-10-05T07:43:54Z myrkraverk: So we have CFFI that (apparently) works, but undocumented, while SBCL is documented but doesn't work. 2016-10-05T07:50:09Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T07:59:26Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:01:02Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:04:13Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:05:31Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T08:05:54Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T08:06:40Z scymtym: Bike: i'm fixing the sbcl side of this. is (values ptr length) in the sbcl code or is that cffi? (i'm asking because i'm looking at (values bug count) in %MAKE-ALIEN-STRING) 2016-10-05T08:06:49Z Bike: cffi 2016-10-05T08:07:12Z scymtym: ok, thanks 2016-10-05T08:07:33Z Bike: sbcl make-alien string has (values (%sap-alien ...) bytes), but bytes is from %make-alien-string which only seems to return one value 2016-10-05T08:07:38Z Bike: this might be a bit old though. 2016-10-05T08:08:06Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-10-05T08:08:38Z HeyFlash joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:09:30Z scymtym: yes, i'm changing %MAKE-ALIEN-STRING to return a second value which all call sites already expect 2016-10-05T08:11:45Z Bike quit (Quit: sleep) 2016-10-05T08:12:29Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T08:13:37Z clintm joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:15:07Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:17:01Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:21:03Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:21:50Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T08:22:13Z przl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T08:24:36Z Kruppe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-05T08:29:36Z watersoul quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T08:30:38Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:34:41Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:36:07Z Olical joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:37:35Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T08:38:30Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:41:43Z HeyFlash- joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:42:17Z HeyFlash quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T08:47:12Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-05T08:56:49Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T08:57:51Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-05T09:28:53Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-05T09:29:07Z MolluskEmpire quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T09:29:16Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-10-05T09:31:12Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-05T09:31:13Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T09:31:33Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-05T09:32:29Z Olical quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T09:36:04Z myrkraverk: There you go: http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/2016/10/when-sbcl-is-buggy-and-cffi-is-undocumented/ 2016-10-05T09:38:13Z watersoul joined #lisp 2016-10-05T09:38:31Z Olical joined #lisp 2016-10-05T09:40:35Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-05T09:43:18Z loke: Woah. 2016-10-05T09:43:33Z loke: For the first time I realised your nick is not "Myr Kraftwerk" 2016-10-05T09:43:45Z myrkraverk: Hahahaha. 2016-10-05T09:44:08Z myrkraverk: Are you German, loke? 2016-10-05T09:44:13Z loke: No. Swedish. 2016-10-05T09:44:33Z myrkraverk: Oh, hm. I thought it was Germans who read it as myr kraftwerk. 2016-10-05T09:44:48Z loke: It could also be fans of one of the best music artists ever :-) 2016-10-05T09:45:08Z myrkraverk: Well, there's that too. 2016-10-05T09:45:11Z loke: Since it's "Kraftverk" in Swedish, that probably added to my misreading. 2016-10-05T09:45:18Z myrkraverk: Ah. 2016-10-05T09:47:02Z xantoz: "ant power plant". Green energy? 2016-10-05T09:47:28Z myrkraverk: Wouldn't that be brown energy? 2016-10-05T09:47:28Z raydeejay: black or red 2016-10-05T09:48:46Z raydeejay wonders if red-black trees are just regular trees infested with ants 2016-10-05T09:50:33Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T09:51:44Z myrkraverk: Btw, do we have CFFI maintainers in the channel? 2016-10-05T09:51:59Z myrkraverk: Or should I report the documentation bug somewhere off-irc? 2016-10-05T09:54:54Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: I think that they'd prefer to have a github issue 2016-10-05T09:55:09Z myrkraverk: Hmm, I'll dig up github later. 2016-10-05T09:55:10Z jackdaniel: that said, luis` is one of the maintainers 2016-10-05T09:55:13Z myrkraverk: I believe I have an account. 2016-10-05T09:56:09Z attila_lendvai has the cffi commit bit and is reading that^ link 2016-10-05T09:59:32Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T10:00:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T10:01:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T10:02:20Z beaky: hello what does it mean to 'cons' memory 2016-10-05T10:02:29Z beaky: (in profiling information for example) 2016-10-05T10:02:37Z beaky: is cons like the lisp equivalent of malloc 2016-10-05T10:03:26Z jackdaniel: beaky: something like that, but automatically collected by gc and implicit 2016-10-05T10:03:29Z beaky: ah 2016-10-05T10:05:18Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T10:05:19Z _death: beaky do you get your questions from some faq 2016-10-05T10:05:40Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T10:05:42Z beaky: nope 2016-10-05T10:05:50Z _death: they are always very general and basic 2016-10-05T10:05:51Z beaky: im reading some old lisp usenets stuff 2016-10-05T10:06:12Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-05T10:06:13Z beaky: and they say things like 'i got my thing to cons less memory' 2016-10-05T10:06:21Z beaky: and now i wonder 'whats that' 2016-10-05T10:06:33Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T10:06:45Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-05T10:07:16Z jackdaniel: beaky: usenet posts aren't a good place to learn imho 2016-10-05T10:07:23Z jackdaniel: read pcl for instance :) 2016-10-05T10:07:28Z jackdaniel: minion: tell beaky about pcl 2016-10-05T10:07:28Z minion: beaky: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2016-10-05T10:07:48Z _death: usenet posts are great.. after you know the language 2016-10-05T10:07:49Z beaky: haha i am seeing that 'Peter Seibel' guy asking basic questions on the usenet too 2016-10-05T10:08:06Z moore33: Yup, he was a newbie once too. 2016-10-05T10:08:08Z jackdaniel: yes, he didn't have such a great resource like book he wrote later 2016-10-05T10:08:29Z beaky: yep im glad he ended up writing great books like pcl and coders at work 2016-10-05T10:08:32Z moore33: Erik Naggum's posts are a great resource too. 2016-10-05T10:08:51Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-05T10:09:01Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T10:09:16Z beaky: yes im always nodding along everything that 'erik naggum' guy says 2016-10-05T10:09:25Z beaky: especially when he talks about clos 2016-10-05T10:10:15Z moore33: A tragic figure... 2016-10-05T10:10:45Z beaky: yes rip :< 2016-10-05T10:11:14Z mk2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T10:12:11Z beaky: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/FMvNGxgd8Dk/_rN9cGrD9GAJ this post by him in particular kinda verbally states what i've always felt i liked about things like CLOS (and didnt like about things like java-style oop) yet didnt know how to express myself 2016-10-05T10:12:30Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T10:13:26Z xduba joined #lisp 2016-10-05T10:14:00Z beaky: "There is no right class hierarchy in Lisp" i like that 2016-10-05T10:15:35Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T10:16:41Z voids quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T12:08:15Z myrkraverk: Hmm, is this an SBCL bug then? 2016-10-05T12:08:24Z myrkraverk: Because this is a fresh SBCL process. 2016-10-05T12:08:33Z jtz left #lisp 2016-10-05T12:10:17Z tsabx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-05T12:10:29Z moore33: myrkraverk: Did you build everything -- i.e., SBCL and the share object you're loading -- yourself? 2016-10-05T12:11:01Z myrkraverk: moore33: No. I'm using SBCL and (in this case) LLVM from mac ports. 2016-10-05T12:11:17Z myrkraverk: But I see this style warning for other shared objects too. 2016-10-05T12:11:49Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-05T12:12:10Z moore33: I'm not on a Mac, but I suppose it's possible that SBCL was built on a version of MacOS that doesn't define that symbol... 2016-10-05T12:12:57Z voids quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-05T12:13:21Z myrkraverk: Hmm, ok. 2016-10-05T12:13:38Z myrkraverk: Or it was built on one that does, but mine is too old. 2016-10-05T12:13:48Z moore33: that too 2016-10-05T12:17:58Z attila_lendvai: I *think* SBCL signals a style warning for every defined alien defun for which it doesn't find the specified C side symbol; and does that each time any .so is (re)loaded 2016-10-05T12:19:37Z anquegi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T12:20:02Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T12:20:04Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T12:22:24Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-05T12:23:43Z myrkraverk: attila_lendvai: fair enough; then I presume my current host is simply too old (it is). 2016-10-05T12:24:55Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-05T12:29:37Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-05T12:30:17Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-05T12:30:54Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T12:36:13Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-05T12:36:25Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T12:37:44Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T12:38:29Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 252 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does someone have a link for me, describing the history of CLOS? Ie. OO in CL? 2016-10-05T12:54:51Z anquegi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T12:55:06Z anquegi joined #lisp 2016-10-05T12:55:14Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-05T12:57:48Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-05T12:59:57Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-05T13:00:58Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:01:15Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:03:30Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T13:04:16Z dmiles: are the ansi-tests not that important to impls? .. i am running an old version of the tests but finding these numbers of failure: sbcl 82, abcl 29, uabcl 12, ecl 42, clisp 401 2016-10-05T13:05:23Z Xach: dmiles: they have been used to improve things, but the most active period of change driven by the tests was 8-10 years ago 2016-10-05T13:05:50Z dmiles: so its lsiught bitrot on the imls? 2016-10-05T13:05:52Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:05:53Z Xach: dmiles: some things are hard to get right, and some things are possibly not all that important (and also hard) 2016-10-05T13:05:59Z Xach: dmiles: not necessarily 2016-10-05T13:06:09Z razzy89__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T13:06:17Z dmiles: i am trying to get a guage of what isnt important 2016-10-05T13:06:23Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:06:44Z Xach: dmiles: I don't think there's a comprehensive survey of what tests fail and whether they're important or not. that would be an interesting read. 2016-10-05T13:07:13Z Xach: CLISP has historically not been great at conformance. it got better for a while but it's currently not maintained. 2016-10-05T13:07:41Z Xach: There are some areas where it diverges on purpose and sometimes command-line switches can change its behavior 2016-10-05T13:07:54Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-10-05T13:08:03Z dmiles: ah yeah that was what i was going to ask about when it comes to SBCL 2016-10-05T13:08:10Z dmiles: if there are switches 2016-10-05T13:08:20Z Xach: No, as far as I know, SBCL does its best by default 2016-10-05T13:09:05Z jackdaniel: dmiles: ansi-tests canonical repository is here: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/groups/ansi-test 2016-10-05T13:09:12Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:09:20Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:09:30Z jackdaniel: I know that at least ABCL, ECL and CMUCL regularily use ansi-tests 2016-10-05T13:10:09Z jackdaniel: generally like Xach said, some non-conformities are cosmetic 2016-10-05T13:11:01Z jackdaniel: or sometimes it's that implementation does better than standard allows (for instance shiftf returning multiple values, while standard says, that returns single value - backward compatible etc, but non-conformant) 2016-10-05T13:11:08Z Xach: There are a lot of different motivations for making changes to a CL implementation: a customer wants it (and pays for it), bragging rights, a sense of purity and correctness, a desire for more interoperability 2016-10-05T13:11:26Z Xach: Different implementors have different motivations at different times 2016-10-05T13:11:40Z dmiles: with the new tests seems (load "doit.lsp") doesnt work on most impls 2016-10-05T13:11:52Z dmiles: new = https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/groups/ansi-test 2016-10-05T13:12:41Z dmiles: old = https://github.com/gnooth/xcl/tree/master/ansi-tests 2016-10-05T13:12:48Z dmiles: whiuch seems to work with all impls 2016-10-05T13:13:07Z jackdaniel: the correct way to run tests is via makefile 2016-10-05T13:13:24Z anquegi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T13:13:28Z jackdaniel: the new version was tailored a lot, because we have grouped files in directories (originally structure was messy and flat) 2016-10-05T13:13:38Z jackdaniel: it might be that some regressions were introduced 2016-10-05T13:15:00Z titankil` joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:15:29Z dmiles: ok yes.. doit.lsp is pretty much the same.. its jsut the subdirs 2016-10-05T13:15:45Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T13:16:51Z anquegi joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:17:51Z dmiles: ok.. the makefile makes sense 2016-10-05T13:18:23Z titankiller quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T13:18:47Z jackdaniel: dmiles: if you fix some problems, please make a merge request, or send a patch :) 2016-10-05T13:20:41Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T13:21:23Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T13:22:34Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:23:27Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T13:26:05Z dmiles: JD: will do perhaps 2016-10-05T13:27:36Z dmiles: i started passing 4 more tests in uabcl tonight! 2016-10-05T13:29:41Z jackdaniel: :-) 2016-10-05T13:29:53Z jackdaniel: uabcl is abcl targetting .net clr? 2016-10-05T13:30:03Z dmiles: yeah 2016-10-05T13:30:32Z dmiles: https://code.google.com/archive/p/uabcl/ 2016-10-05T13:31:43Z dmiles: i am revamping it before re-merging it into LarKC (The lisp that CYC is written) 2016-10-05T13:31:53Z JoshYoshi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T13:33:20Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-10-05T13:36:36Z Xach: google code! 2016-10-05T13:37:45Z titankil` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T13:40:25Z QwertyDragon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T13:40:35Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-05T13:40:43Z ecraven: is "e and &eval like NLAMBDA vs. LAMBDA? 2016-10-05T13:43:47Z Blkt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T13:43:47Z fe[nl]ix quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T13:44:02Z Blkt joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:44:03Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:44:24Z fe[nl]ix quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T13:44:24Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T13:45:47Z Blkt joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:45:48Z beaky: hello 2016-10-05T13:45:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:46:00Z beaky: how do i tell if macros like this -> one are hygienic? 2016-10-05T13:46:03Z beaky: https://ideone.com/aVH68R 2016-10-05T13:46:07Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:46:34Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:48:26Z jackdaniel: hygiene is scheme concept, the correct question is whenever this macro leaks :) there is an entry in PCL about what such leaks may be 2016-10-05T13:48:42Z flip214: beaky: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html "Plugging the Leaks" 2016-10-05T13:48:54Z beaky: ah 2016-10-05T13:49:40Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T13:49:45Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T13:51:02Z dmiles: earlier to answer my question: clisp -ansi -q 2016-10-05T13:51:39Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:52:05Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:52:42Z dmiles: jackdaniel: can you tll me the trick for runing ecl or clisp with the new ansi-tests ? 2016-10-05T13:52:43Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:53:19Z dmiles: ( have ben trying the makefill with each.. sop far works good for uabcl and abcl) 2016-10-05T13:53:59Z jackdaniel: you just set LISP variable in makefile (works for me) 2016-10-05T13:54:07Z dmiles: http://pastebin.com/Kzc4ZjLw 2016-10-05T13:54:23Z dmiles: now will try the ecl 2016-10-05T13:54:43Z dmiles: clisp was: LISP=clisp -ansi -q 2016-10-05T13:54:58Z dmiles: ecl would be LISP=ecl ? 2016-10-05T13:55:08Z jackdaniel: I will have to fix that (when find some time hehe) 2016-10-05T13:55:21Z jackdaniel: yes, if it's in the path 2016-10-05T13:55:54Z dmiles: here is what i got for ECL http://pastebin.com/4WV4JHam 2016-10-05T13:55:56Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:56:28Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T13:56:31Z jackdaniel: you may want to go with ECL 16.1.2 2016-10-05T13:56:40Z jackdaniel: I think I'll simplify path access in ansi-tests though 2016-10-05T13:57:17Z jackdaniel: i.e get rid of logical pathnames since they seem to be a bit fragile 2016-10-05T13:58:51Z flip214: can I trace only a specific method of a GF (via swank)? 2016-10-05T13:59:18Z dmiles: *nod* jackdaniel 2016-10-05T14:01:02Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T14:01:50Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:02:16Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:02:31Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:02:37Z Xach_ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:02:38Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:03:44Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:05:02Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:05:28Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:05:50Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:07:27Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-05T14:07:50Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:08:51Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:11:14Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:11:47Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:12:16Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T14:13:23Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:13:29Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:14:20Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:14:22Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:16:00Z Devon: What should (read-from-string ";xyz" :start 1) return? 2016-10-05T14:16:41Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:17:17Z jackdaniel: error, you forgot about two arguments 2016-10-05T14:17:25Z raydeejay: xD 2016-10-05T14:17:27Z jackdaniel: (read-from-string ";bah" nil :er :start 1) ; will return bah 2016-10-05T14:17:39Z jackdaniel: (and 4) 2016-10-05T14:18:06Z jackdaniel: there was a joke on cliki about that 2016-10-05T14:18:06Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:19:05Z jackdaniel: http://www.cliki.net/Infrequently%20Asked%20Questions Section 2 2016-10-05T14:21:09Z anquegi quit 2016-10-05T14:21:46Z Devon: lol 2016-10-05T14:24:04Z beaky: two starts wow 2016-10-05T14:24:38Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:25:13Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:25:27Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:26:01Z tsabx joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:26:43Z beaky: "This page is humor" oh i thought i was losing my mind 2016-10-05T14:27:12Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:28:43Z ekinmur quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-05T14:30:22Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:32:50Z dmiles: jackdaniel: good new the more modern ECL now runs the tests 2016-10-05T14:32:54Z dmiles: news* 2016-10-05T14:33:47Z warweasle: Does anyone have an McCLIM tutorial for people who are used to more traditional window APIs? 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2016-10-05T14:41:21Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 271 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:41:43Z albus: Hello, I want to append strings, like this: (aFunction "abc" "def"), then I get "abcdef". Which function should I use? 2016-10-05T14:41:54Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:42:28Z albus: Anyone help? 2016-10-05T14:42:38Z MorTal1ty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:43:06Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:43:16Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:43:20Z Xach_: albus: (concatenate 'string "abc" "def") will do that. 2016-10-05T14:43:22Z jackdaniel: warweasle: its tot a thing yet, but its being written 2016-10-05T14:43:34Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:43:43Z jackdaniel: im afk atm 2016-10-05T14:43:54Z jackdaniel: phone :) 2016-10-05T14:43:58Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Thanks. Let me know. I think my experience is hindering me. 2016-10-05T14:44:02Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:44:24Z funnel joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:44:36Z moore33: warweasle: It helps to look at the Franz and Lispworks documents on CLIM. 2016-10-05T14:44:37Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-05T14:44:53Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:45:53Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-05T14:45:56Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:45:57Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:46:16Z MorTal1ty joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:46:30Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:46:37Z albus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T14:46:58Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:48:48Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:48:48Z tsabx quit (Quit: .) 2016-10-05T14:48:56Z djh joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:49:59Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:50:52Z deank joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:52:47Z steventog joined #lisp 2016-10-05T14:53:13Z dmiles: jackdaniel: ok it;s confirmed the logical pathnames are breaking even "j" lisp 2016-10-05T14:54:01Z dmiles: i use J on ansi-tests to give myself a performance requirement 2016-10-05T14:54:12Z dmiles: back later 2016-10-05T14:55:24Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T15:00:23Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-05T15:01:50Z JuanDaugherty: pathnames is a never ending story in cl 2016-10-05T15:02:34Z JuanDaugherty: i think there is a good pkg these days, forget the name 2016-10-05T15:02:43Z JuanDaugherty: or which is best atm 2016-10-05T15:03:51Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:04:11Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:04:12Z mordocai: Does uiop do pathnames? 2016-10-05T15:04:17Z mordocai: If it does, it probably does a good job 2016-10-05T15:05:12Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:07:04Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-05T15:07:30Z JuanDaugherty: sounds like the one i was thinking of 2016-10-05T15:09:53Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:13:53Z solene: Is there a way to execute a pipe with uiop:run-command ? (like df | wc -l 2016-10-05T15:18:08Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-05T15:18:26Z mordocai: solene: This works for me (uiop:run-program "df | wc -l" :output t) 2016-10-05T15:21:00Z solene: mordocai: indeed, thanks. I was using (uiop:run-program (list "df" "|" "wc" "-l")) or (list "df | wc -l") 2016-10-05T15:21:12Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-10-05T15:21:53Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:22:13Z BusFactor1 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-05T15:23:05Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:23:27Z mordocai: solene: Yeah, even with :force-shell t I can't get it to work with the list form 2016-10-05T15:24:26Z mordocai: solene: You could also do the pipes yourself in lisp with streams but that's more work 2016-10-05T15:26:05Z solene: mordocai: it exactly what I needed :) 2016-10-05T15:26:16Z solene: (using a string only) 2016-10-05T15:26:54Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T15:28:22Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-05T15:28:37Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:29:01Z Ioann quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-05T15:29:28Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:31:33Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:31:44Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T15:31:44Z Ioann quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-05T15:32:33Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:43:42Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:43:44Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-05T15:45:26Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:45:42Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-05T15:47:12Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:47:41Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T15:47:46Z anon1887 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:47:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:50:16Z pipping: solene: speaking of pipes and uiop... 2016-10-05T15:51:04Z pipping: solene: https://github.com/deepfire/executor/ has some code specific to pipes. maybe you find something useful in there. if you do, let me know, maybe we could add something to uiop, too. 2016-10-05T15:51:41Z pipping: solene: (that's https://github.com/deepfire/executor/blob/master/executor.lisp#L126) 2016-10-05T15:52:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:55:03Z pipping: solene: (expecting the output of `df` to be rather short) you could also do (length (uiop:run-program "df" :output :lines)) btw; that way you don't need to extract the number from the resulting string 2016-10-05T15:55:09Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T15:55:59Z solene: pipping: nice, didn't read it in the doc. but wc -l was an example, I want to extract the % of usage of a mountpoint. I did it the hard way with subseq and position while I could have used awk with a pipe 2016-10-05T15:56:41Z pipping: solene: there's also uiop:split-string 2016-10-05T15:57:44Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:58:05Z pipping: solene: see e.g. https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/test/test-program.script#L8-20 2016-10-05T15:58:09Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-05T15:59:34Z solene: where can I find the doc of it ? I just can't find it 2016-10-05T15:59:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:00:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T16:00:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:01:59Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T16:02:38Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:02:52Z HeyFlash- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T16:04:22Z pipping: solene: it's here https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/uiop/utility.lisp#L292 (the docstring is all there is for now) 2016-10-05T16:05:20Z Grue`: doesn't look much different from split-sequence 2016-10-05T16:06:18Z pipping: I don't think it's meant to be (much different) 2016-10-05T16:07:46Z pipping: not as featureful, though (split-sequence has :from-end nil/t e.g., uiop:split-string behaves like :from-end t) 2016-10-05T16:08:03Z Grue`: both this and split-sequence would be great for 99% of use cases if they supported splitting by string (i.e. (split str ", ")). instead I have to use ppcre:split most of the time 2016-10-05T16:09:55Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:10:28Z pipping: Grue`: you'd prefer not having to depend on cl-ppcre? 2016-10-05T16:11:16Z Grue`: well, I end up depending on it anyway because it's a hammer and everything is a nail 2016-10-05T16:12:17Z pipping: So there is no issue, then? I agree that uiop:split-string could be more flexible but so far the need hadn't arisen in asdf I suppose. 2016-10-05T16:12:42Z pipping: (and there's bigger fires to put out in uiop-land) 2016-10-05T16:13:26Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-05T16:18:25Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:19:06Z nzambe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T16:20:06Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:23:12Z johnjohn89 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:23:44Z johnjohn89 left #lisp 2016-10-05T16:25:57Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-05T16:26:41Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:32:27Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:33:41Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-05T16:34:05Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T16:34:08Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:34:16Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:34:35Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T16:34:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T16:34:38Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:38:55Z razzy89__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T16:40:03Z muyinliu: I try to wrap GraphicsMagickWand(NOT ImageMagickWand) v1.3.25 with CFFI, it works fine in Mac OS X 10.10.5 and Linux 32bit systems, but crash everytime I run `(defcfun ("MagickReadImage" %MagickReadImage) :unsigned-int (wand :pointer) (filename :string)` on Linux 64bit systems. GDB says "Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 2016-10-05T16:40:03Z muyinliu: 0x00000010011aef6b in ?? ()". Can anyone tell me how to debug this? 2016-10-05T16:40:43Z mordocai: muyinliu: GDB should be able to tell you more about the issue, at least if you have debug symbols for magick wand 2016-10-05T16:41:59Z muyinliu: mordocai: I add "-g" to CFLAGS before I build libGraphicsMagickWand.so, but still can't get more details... 2016-10-05T16:43:03Z muyinliu: It's weird...Any suggestion? 2016-10-05T16:43:57Z mordocai: muyinliu: You may need to turn down/off optimization settings as well to get something useful? In any case if you can share your code I can try running it here. 2016-10-05T16:44:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:46:17Z muyinliu: Wait a second. 2016-10-05T16:49:46Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-05T16:49:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T16:50:26Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-05T16:50:31Z Grue`: is your lisp 32bit or 64bit? 2016-10-05T16:50:50Z muyinliu: I pasted the code here: http://pasteall.org/83782/lisp 2016-10-05T16:51:29Z mk2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T16:51:41Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:52:02Z muyinliu: Grue`: SBCL v1.3.1 63bit 2016-10-05T16:52:18Z tax joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:52:39Z muyinliu: Grue`: There is `:X86-64` in `*features*`, so I thinks it's 64bit 2016-10-05T16:53:00Z muyinliu: Grue`: SBCL v1.3.1 64bit 2016-10-05T16:54:23Z muyinliu: Only crash on Linux 64bit systems. 2016-10-05T16:55:21Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T16:55:43Z mordocai: muyinliu: Works fine with SBCL 1.3.7 on debian x86_64 linux. I had to specify "/usr/lib/x86_640linux-gnu/libMagickWand-6.Q16.so" as the lib 2016-10-05T16:55:44Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:55:55Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:56:02Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-05T16:56:30Z mordocai: Note that I just ran exactly what you pasted. Did not call any functions or anything 2016-10-05T16:57:02Z muyinliu: mordocai: libMagickWand-6.Q16.so? NOT libGraphicsMagickWand.so? 2016-10-05T16:57:26Z mordocai: muyinliu: Right, that's what it is on debian. 2016-10-05T16:58:53Z muyinliu: mordocai: OK. Do you have Cent OS 6.7 Final 64bit? 2016-10-05T16:59:19Z muyinliu: Or CentOS 5.8 Final 64bit? 2016-10-05T17:00:03Z mordocai: Nope. It working for me means that it likely is a system problem not a lisp problem though. 2016-10-05T17:01:09Z muyinliu: mordocai: Which version of GraphicsMagick? 2016-10-05T17:01:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:02:02Z muyinliu: mordocai: The old version(1.3.18-) of GraphicsMagick works fine in CentOS 6.7 Final 64bit. 2016-10-05T17:02:15Z manuel__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T17:02:19Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:02:26Z muyinliu: mordocai: Only GraphicsMagick v1.3.19+ crash 2016-10-05T17:04:32Z Olical quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T17:04:57Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-05T17:05:33Z mordocai: muyinliu: Ah, so I was using the imagemagick wand not the graphicsmagick wand. The graphics magick wand 1.3.25 just freezes up sbcl for me. 2016-10-05T17:05:51Z mordocai: Sits there at 100% of one core of CPU and does nothing 2016-10-05T17:06:17Z muyinliu: mordocai: Yes, very weird... 2016-10-05T17:06:52Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-05T17:07:40Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T17:07:41Z muyinliu: mordocai: I check libGraphicsMagickWand.so with C/Python code, it works fine. Only SBCL crash. 2016-10-05T17:07:49Z mordocai: muyinliu: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327791 2016-10-05T17:07:52Z mordocai: That's what I get 2016-10-05T17:08:01Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:08:05Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:08:16Z mordocai: So it was sitting there and I control+c'd it and then used ldb to print the backtrace 2016-10-05T17:08:28Z akkad: so jonathan gives you a list of (:|key1| "value1" :|key2| "value2" ...) how does one access by key? 2016-10-05T17:08:42Z akkad: make it alisty 2016-10-05T17:09:30Z Grue`: that's just a plist? so getf 2016-10-05T17:10:00Z muyinliu: mordocai: Thanks. 2016-10-05T17:10:28Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:11:18Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T17:11:59Z akkad: ahh ohhh. did not recognize it as such 2016-10-05T17:12:14Z mordocai: muyinliu: clozure appears to work with that code, trying ecl 2016-10-05T17:12:32Z mordocai: muyinliu: ecl also works. So it appears to be an sbcl specific problem possibly 2016-10-05T17:12:44Z akkad: Grue`: thanks 2016-10-05T17:12:54Z mordocai: And by works I just don't get an error loading the lisp file 2016-10-05T17:13:02Z mordocai: Nor the freezing 2016-10-05T17:13:08Z muyinliu: mordocai: Thanks a lot. 2016-10-05T17:13:14Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:14:25Z mordocai: muyinliu: Should probably be something to run by #sbcl. Or you could just use one of the other implementations for now. It'd be nice if you could get a bug filed though. 2016-10-05T17:14:50Z mordocai: Or be told that you are doing something wrong that just happens to work sometimes, which is what usually happens to me when I go to #sbcl 2016-10-05T17:14:54Z Ioann quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T17:16:42Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:17:20Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:17:35Z drmeister: Am I correct in concluding that there is no equivalent of APPLY for foreign function calls? There is %foreign-funcall-pointer but nothing like %foreign-apply-pointer 2016-10-05T17:17:47Z mordocai is going to talk to #sbcl about it 2016-10-05T17:18:34Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:18:55Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-05T17:18:56Z drmeister: I can read the spec: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/spec/cffi-sys-spec.html#Foreign-Function-Calling 2016-10-05T17:19:05Z muyinliu: mordocai: Thanks. Hope there is an solution. 2016-10-05T17:19:09Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-05T17:20:00Z akkad: plist getf fail. what am I doing wrong? https://gist.github.com/21a1dddd02f24e1c6d35abd36bfd6e42 2016-10-05T17:20:04Z drmeister: But I was a little surprised that there is no mechanism to pass a variable number of arguments that to a foreign function that is constructed at run time. 2016-10-05T17:20:49Z drmeister: akkad: The key in the plist is :|type| and you are searching for 'type. 2016-10-05T17:20:50Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:20:56Z drmeister: Those are different symbols. 2016-10-05T17:22:18Z drmeister: Actually, no - you have nested lists. 2016-10-05T17:23:17Z drmeister: You are searching for 'TYPE - that is not a key in your plist. 2016-10-05T17:25:06Z ggole quit 2016-10-05T17:27:26Z rpg: drmeister: isn't there always (ugh) EVAL? 2016-10-05T17:27:28Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:34:42Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:35:17Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T17:37:36Z drmeister: Agreed - "Ugh". 2016-10-05T17:43:37Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T17:45:10Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:47:56Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-10-05T17:51:28Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T17:51:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:51:47Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-05T17:51:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:54:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:55:06Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T17:55:25Z Th30n_ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T17:58:35Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T17:59:37Z shrdlu68: Hi, I have a function that returns an alist whose cars are keyword symbols. I would like to define a macro that binds the keyword symbols in the alist to the cdrs so that they are accessibe as variables by the &body of the macro...I'm confused as to how to achieve this without creating sphagetti code. 2016-10-05T17:59:57Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:02:30Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:02:36Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:03:58Z Xach_: shrdlu68: I think it would be better to do something like (bind-alist (var1 var2 var3 ...) alist &body body) to make it apparent where the variables are coming from and which you will use. 2016-10-05T18:04:01Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T18:04:22Z funnel joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:05:04Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:07:42Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T18:08:15Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T18:08:28Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:08:44Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-05T18:09:28Z malcolm_ is now known as klltkr 2016-10-05T18:10:22Z klltkr quit (Changing host) 2016-10-05T18:10:22Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:13:15Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T18:14:41Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:15:38Z akkad: drmeister: thanks. 2016-10-05T18:16:55Z shrdlu68: Xach_: Yeah, that looks clean. 2016-10-05T18:16:58Z mordocai is a little surprised bind-alist or equivalent doesn't already appear to exist out in the wild. 2016-10-05T18:17:56Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T18:22:01Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:24:08Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-05T18:27:04Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:27:30Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T18:28:42Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T18:29:02Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:30:24Z akkad: mordocai: is that like let-alist in elisp? 2016-10-05T18:30:33Z nalik89 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:32:17Z mordocai: akkad: Similar but it does it different than Xach's proposal. I like Xach's better personally. 2016-10-05T18:35:23Z akkad: nice 2016-10-05T18:36:17Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:38:59Z shrdlu68: Damn, my connection broke. Must have missed something. 2016-10-05T18:39:06Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:40:53Z shrdlu68: Someone please post the stuff I missed? 2016-10-05T18:41:09Z shrdlu68: I'm dying of curiosity. 2016-10-05T18:41:18Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:43:07Z jasom: Xach_ | shrdlu68: I think it would be better to do something like (bind-alist (var1 var2 var3 ...) alist &body body) to make it apparent where the variables are coming from and which you will use. 2016-10-05T18:43:14Z akkad: shrdlu68: https://gist.github.com/be568043108007c9e8f24e37881494f8 2016-10-05T18:43:53Z shrdlu68: Thank you! 2016-10-05T18:44:12Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-05T18:44:24Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:45:08Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:49:03Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-10-05T18:51:31Z jokleinn1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T18:53:02Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T18:55:53Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-05T18:57:44Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-05T18:57:56Z Th30n_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-05T19:00:07Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T19:00:08Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:00:14Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-05T19:04:30Z akkad: hey Asau! ltns 2016-10-05T19:05:23Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:06:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-05T19:08:58Z Quadresce: What are the rules for closing over a dynamic variable? Is that variable's value captured in the closure as if it were lexical? 2016-10-05T19:09:48Z oGMo: you don't close over them, they're dynamic 2016-10-05T19:09:49Z jackdaniel: Quadresce: no, variable value is dependent on its dynamic context 2016-10-05T19:10:01Z jackdaniel: so if you call (let ((x 3)) (my-foo)) 2016-10-05T19:10:10Z jackdaniel: then if my-foo references dynamic x, then x will e 3 2016-10-05T19:10:24Z ejbs joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:10:31Z jackdaniel: disregarding what was it value during the definition 2016-10-05T19:10:33Z Quadresce: I am talking about closures specifically. 2016-10-05T19:10:42Z raydeejay: I coined a word for the kind of thing that you described: "unfeature" :) 2016-10-05T19:11:11Z jackdaniel: I believe it's the same with closures (they won't close over dynamic variable) 2016-10-05T19:12:01Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2016-10-05T19:12:01Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:12:19Z Quadresce: I think so too, as shown by an example like (let ((...) (declare (special ...)) (lambda ..)) and funcalling that 2016-10-05T19:12:38Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:13:43Z jasom: what does it even mean to close over a dynamic variable? 2016-10-05T19:14:03Z oGMo: it doesn't 2016-10-05T19:14:11Z oGMo: you close over values, not variables 2016-10-05T19:14:41Z jasom: to me this sounds like "what are the rules for scoring goals in baseball" 2016-10-05T19:15:03Z Quadresce: (The question comes from some macro that's doing (let ((dynamic)) (lambda () ..)) and the lambda seems to maintain the value bound to the dynamic variable) 2016-10-05T19:15:08Z Quadresce: (but of course that must not be happening) 2016-10-05T19:15:34Z jasom: Quadresce: are you sure that dynamic is special? 2016-10-05T19:15:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:15:45Z Quadresce: jasom, it is DEFVAR'd 2016-10-05T19:16:09Z jasom: is the value rather than the varaible what is present in the macro expansion? 2016-10-05T19:16:24Z jasom: even better, can you paste the macro definition? 2016-10-05T19:16:24Z jackdaniel: maybe it is (let ((*dynamic* 'foo)) ((lambda () *dynamic*))) ; ? 2016-10-05T19:19:21Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:19:46Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T19:20:11Z Quadresce: This is my not-reading-the-docs. I think this was a result of my misunderstanding of CL-PPCRE. The variable was *ALLOW-NAMED-REGISTERS*. Named registers seemed to be "allowed" despite the above binding. The variable seems to enable string syntax of named registers, not CL-PPCRE's ability to handle them once the regex string has been parsed. 2016-10-05T19:20:24Z Quadresce: The offending line was: https://github.com/rigetticomputing/alexa/blob/master/src/alexa.lisp#L168 2016-10-05T19:20:45Z Quadresce: s/offending line/line that seemed to "capture" the value of a dynamic variable but doesn't actually/ 2016-10-05T19:22:59Z Quadresce: Anyway, thanks for the sanity check. 2016-10-05T19:24:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:26:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T19:27:04Z waynecolvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T19:29:10Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:29:49Z slowup joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:30:43Z pjb: Quadresce: again, remember that lexical = space but dynamic = time. So you don't close on dynamic variable, you catch them at a given time. 2016-10-05T19:31:04Z Quadresce: Yes I understand. I was just trying to corroborate an observation. 2016-10-05T19:31:32Z pjb: (defun catch-it (time) (if (it-is-the-right time) (let ((value *dynamic-variable*)) (lambda () value)) (lambda () 'not-yet))) 2016-10-05T19:32:00Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:32:13Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:36:04Z jackdaniel: I think it's a bit unfortunate, that calls to both dynamic and lexical variables look "the same" 2016-10-05T19:36:14Z jackdaniel: s/calls/references/ 2016-10-05T19:36:44Z pjb: historical. In ISO Lisp, you write (dynamic foo) instead of *foo*. 2016-10-05T19:37:13Z jackdaniel: interesting 2016-10-05T19:37:16Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T19:37:30Z jackdaniel: you mean "islisp"? 2016-10-05T19:37:40Z pjb: (defmacro dynamic (name) (intern (format nil "*~A*" name))) but it doesn't work for (let (((dynamic foo) 42)) so you need also a (dynamic-let ((foo 42)) (dynamic foo)) --> 42 2016-10-05T19:37:48Z pjb: islisp is an implementation of ISO Lisp. 2016-10-05T19:37:59Z jackdaniel: OK 2016-10-05T19:38:42Z pjb: it should be rather easy to implement ISO Lisp as a CL package. 2016-10-05T19:39:15Z pjb: Plus a few reader macros, I gues. 2016-10-05T19:42:26Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:42:32Z rpg: jackdaniel: Isn't that need (distinguish between static and dynamic references) basically addressed by the *earmuffs* convention? 2016-10-05T19:42:52Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:43:24Z jackdaniel: it is, still it's unfortunate - both are very different kind of beasts 2016-10-05T19:43:34Z jackdaniel: for instance we don't have convention for naming functions 2016-10-05T19:43:43Z jackdaniel: they are accessed with (function foo) 2016-10-05T19:44:18Z jackdaniel: but yes, if convention is kept it is at least readable :) 2016-10-05T19:45:40Z rpg: also, in what I think of as modern, "normal" CL style, we don't make heavy use of dynamic variables. 2016-10-05T19:45:45Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-10-05T19:46:13Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:49:08Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T19:49:53Z jasom: pjb: ISLISP/ISLisp is the name of the language defined by ISO/IEC 13816:1997(E): http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm?csnumber=22987 2016-10-05T19:50:18Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-05T19:53:04Z rpg: $200 for a peek at the document is a pretty effective deterrent to ISLisp! 2016-10-05T19:53:35Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-05T19:53:50Z _death: wonder how many requests they get nowadays.. 2016-10-05T19:54:18Z Quadresce: Dynamic vars are dangerously easy to use to provide out-of-band information across your function boundaries :) 2016-10-05T19:54:24Z jackdaniel: here is a "equivalent public domain draft" 2016-10-05T19:54:34Z jackdaniel: workind draft° 2016-10-05T19:54:34Z jasom: rpg: http://islisp.info/specification.html has it for free 2016-10-05T19:54:40Z jackdaniel: http://islisp.org/ISLisp-spec.html 2016-10-05T19:54:43Z jasom: late draft 2016-10-05T19:55:25Z jackdaniel: g'night o/ 2016-10-05T19:57:29Z jasom: oh, according to http://islisp.info/history.html it's the exact text of the ISO document, but in the public domain. 2016-10-05T19:57:50Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T19:58:06Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T20:01:12Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-05T20:03:34Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-05T20:04:29Z rpg: jasom: Thanks! 2016-10-05T20:05:05Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T20:06:42Z slowup quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-05T20:08:21Z pipping: also, http://www.yuasa.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~yuasa/lispwg/islisp.pdf 2016-10-05T20:10:40Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-05T20:11:19Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T20:11:26Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-05T20:11:27Z trn joined #lisp 2016-10-05T20:11:36Z pipping: hm. not sure if that's public domain. http://www.yuasa.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~yuasa/lispwg/ only lists the drafts. not sure why that exists. google pointed me at it. 2016-10-05T20:11:45Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-05T20:12:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T20:13:34Z rpg: It says it's a draft, and it seemed from what jasom pointed me at, that it was only when ISO "blessed" the document as official, that it became ... expensive 2016-10-05T20:14:21Z raydeejay thinks the word is "unfair" 2016-10-05T20:14:37Z beaky: damn i love macrolet 2016-10-05T20:15:03Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-05T20:16:22Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-05T20:17:14Z rpg: Is there any real push for ISLisp compliance? 2016-10-05T20:18:32Z antoszka: Does one actually get to hear about any serious uses of ISLisp? I don't think I've heard a single mention of it on any of the European Lisp Symposiums/Meetings over the recent years. 2016-10-05T20:18:53Z rpg has been forlornly hoping for some opportunity to have some *official* update to the undead ANSI standard 2016-10-05T20:20:33Z KaliLinuxGR joined #lisp 2016-10-05T20:21:13Z _death: cliki could have an Other Lisps page with links to specs and manuals 2016-10-05T20:21:14Z deank quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T20:23:00Z rpg: _death: Then it would be "liki" which sounds nasty 2016-10-05T20:24:03Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-05T20:25:33Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-05T20:25:56Z _death: rpg: I don't think one page dedicated to other lisps will transform the whole wiki 2016-10-05T20:26:54Z rpg: _death: I don't know: Scheme can be like Ice-9 ;-) 2016-10-05T20:27:08Z rpg: You're right though, that's a good idea 2016-10-05T20:27:08Z _death: well, cliki already has a scheme page :) 2016-10-05T20:27:25Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-05T20:29:11Z nalik89 is now known as nullwork 2016-10-05T20:36:04Z vlatkoB_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T20:39:03Z pierpa: the only real implementation of ISLisp is Openlisp. They seem to maintain it. Someone could ask them how many users they estimate. 2016-10-05T20:39:04Z manuel___ is now known as manuel_ 2016-10-05T20:40:24Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T20:40:52Z warweasle quit (Quit: going home) 2016-10-05T20:42:41Z madbub quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T20:44:14Z anunnaki quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-05T20:47:20Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-05T20:48:21Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-05T20:48:47Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2016-10-05T20:49:45Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-10-05T20:52:14Z akkad: is it me, or is CL gaining popularity in recent years? 2016-10-05T20:52:28Z pierpa: it is you. 2016-10-05T20:52:39Z akkad: kk 2016-10-05T20:52:56Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T20:53:27Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T20:53:48Z akkad: are there any good examples of low level network protocols implemented in a package? 2016-10-05T20:56:11Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T20:57:20Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T21:00:16Z mordocai: Personally I think that CL is getting a very slight increase in popularity but I have no numbers to back it up. 2016-10-05T21:01:19Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T21:01:42Z pierpa: what is it that gives you this impression? 2016-10-05T21:03:07Z Xach_: akkad: what do you consider a low-level network protocol? ethernet? tcp/ip? dns? http? 2016-10-05T21:03:50Z mordocai: pierpa: A number of new people showing up in #lisp and #lispgames combined with a (relatively) large number of new libraries being created by new people. Also there's interest in my local area from Clojurists but that's even more anecdotal than the rest. 2016-10-05T21:04:09Z pierpa: hmmm 2016-10-05T21:04:11Z mordocai: My timeline is only a like 3 years though so yeah 2016-10-05T21:04:16Z mordocai: I don't have the long perspective others have 2016-10-05T21:05:20Z Xach_: ther was a CL boom when Beating the Averages came out 2016-10-05T21:05:41Z Xach_: And an echo with Weitz's work and the great improvements to SBCL and other free implementations 2016-10-05T21:06:04Z Xach_: Quicklisp has been another echo, I think. That is 6 years old in October... 2016-10-05T21:06:15Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-05T21:06:16Z ejbs: Land of Lisp probably helped 2016-10-05T21:06:35Z Xach_: Practical Common Lisp did much more in my view 2016-10-05T21:06:44Z pierpa: funnily, yesterday I was reading some old cll posts, and I reread Edi Weitz first post in cll :) 2016-10-05T21:06:51Z ejbs: Xach_: QL made it possible for me to load libraries 2016-10-05T21:06:56Z pipping: 6 years of beta! 2016-10-05T21:07:07Z ejbs: (asdf was hard) 2016-10-05T21:07:32Z pipping: ejbs: do you mean asdf-install? 2016-10-05T21:08:00Z Quadresce: Lisp still needs a larger number of libraries that lots of people use! :) 2016-10-05T21:08:02Z pipping: or (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :something)? 2016-10-05T21:08:10Z Xach_: Yes, there is so much room for improvement 2016-10-05T21:08:27Z Xach_: The fundraiser with matching funds is creaking towards reality 2016-10-05T21:08:36Z Xach_: Many of the roadblocks have been swept away but a few remain 2016-10-05T21:08:53Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-05T21:09:28Z ejbs: pipping: Sorry, had to fetch my non-broken keyboard. Well, the latter. Though I doubt I could've gotten asdf-install to work either 2016-10-05T21:09:32Z pipping would like it if all of http://www.cliki.net/html%20generator was merged into one. 2016-10-05T21:09:43Z Xach_ hopes to get out of beta in 2016! or maybe 2017!! 2016-10-05T21:09:43Z pipping: ^ and that's still missing lml, lml2, etc. 2016-10-05T21:09:55Z Quadresce: pipping, That's true with lots of categories of SW. :) 2016-10-05T21:10:17Z pipping: Quadresce: well, some are worse than others. 2016-10-05T21:10:26Z Quadresce: Yes of course. :) 2016-10-05T21:10:30Z ejbs: It was very frustrating when you were a total noob and tried to load CL libs. Quicklisp was essentially the only thing that made me stay with Lisp 2016-10-05T21:11:11Z ejbs: (six years later and I'm still crap at this library thing haha, I don't get pyInstall/pyEggs or whatever either) 2016-10-05T21:11:24Z pipping: Quadresce: e.g. for working with directories, the number of options you have is four I think. osicat, cl-fad, uiop, iolib 2016-10-05T21:11:57Z Quadresce: pipping, Supposedly UIOP should supersede CL-FAD according to rumors ;) 2016-10-05T21:12:30Z pipping: Quadresce: yes. i think it should. and i'm confident that it will. it won't supersede iolib or osicat, though. 2016-10-05T21:12:33Z ejbs: Oh man, UIOP. 2016-10-05T21:13:00Z mordocai: I -think- the recent popularity of clojure may be causing a small increase in CL interest as well. At least quite a lot of people I know who are looking at CL(or scheme) started with clojure 2016-10-05T21:13:05Z Quadresce: pipping, OSICAT is operating at a slightly different level of abstraction, namely that of POSIX-compatible filesystems 2016-10-05T21:13:33Z pipping: Quadresce: than uiop/cl-fad, yes. come at the cost of a CFFI dependency, though 2016-10-05T21:13:44Z Quadresce: Reasonable if it's POSIX. 2016-10-05T21:13:56Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T21:13:58Z pipping: Quadresce: and iolib is probably even nicer but comes with an even higher-barrier dependency 2016-10-05T21:14:30Z ejbs: IOLib will never be in UIOP, there would be no need. As far as I know what UIOP does is to support ASDF 2016-10-05T21:14:38Z Quadresce: libfixlibfixposix (was this jasom's evolution of the joke?) 2016-10-05T21:15:06Z ejbs: I could see OSICat being superseded by UIOP, if you can skip the CFFI requirement 2016-10-05T21:15:41Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-05T21:15:42Z Quadresce: I want about 90% of the testing libraries to be removed :) 2016-10-05T21:15:52Z deank joined #lisp 2016-10-05T21:15:54Z pipping: ejbs: I'm not sure if could be as fast. But building something portable on top of `directory` is very difficult. 2016-10-05T21:16:11Z pipping: in 90% of all cases I'd probably just use OSICAT. 2016-10-05T21:16:31Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T21:16:55Z pipping: the other 10% are e.g. on mkcl (currently comes with a version of CFFI which is too old), 32bit allegro CL on a 64bit machine (again, issues with CFFI), or inside asdf. 2016-10-05T21:17:52Z pipping: Quadresce: Isn't FiveAM a/the de facto standard? 2016-10-05T21:18:18Z raydeejay: *cough* 2016-10-05T21:18:47Z Quadresce: pipping, It seems popular, but it didn't seem to be de facto standard. 2016-10-05T21:19:32Z Quadresce: The one I've had most success with was STEFIL which was forked and whatever it seemed, and it became FIASCO. 2016-10-05T21:19:44Z pipping: Quadresce: wherever I look, I just see fiveam. But maybe I'm not looking around enough 2016-10-05T21:19:52Z holycow joined #lisp 2016-10-05T21:19:59Z holycow: hi 2016-10-05T21:20:00Z Quadresce: pipping, I might not be looking around enough either. 2016-10-05T21:20:02Z raydeejay: fiasco is a terrible or brilliant name for a test tool :D 2016-10-05T21:21:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T21:21:24Z holycow: i wanted to advertise for a paid mentoring position. i need assistance on a small beginner level project. are there any reasonable places to advertise for such a thing? the regular craigslist and indeed.com (etc) aren't really the right fit for this. any suggestions from anyone here? 2016-10-05T21:22:06Z holycow: i mean besides lispjobs.wordpress.com. i kinda don't want to jam this into a professional kind of board either 2016-10-05T21:22:23Z Quadresce: holycow, for Lisp in particular? Here + lispjobs is probably fine, even if it's not a "professional" position. 2016-10-05T21:22:50Z holycow: lisp specifically yeah. aha okay. thanks. 2016-10-05T21:23:35Z rpg: ejbs: there will never be everything in UIOP, until there is an extension to the ANSI CL standard. There are things you simply cannot do in portable CL. 2016-10-05T21:23:47Z rpg: E.g., "is this a symbolic link?" "does this name a directory?" 2016-10-05T21:24:12Z Quadresce: "will it blend?" 2016-10-05T21:24:59Z rpg: The pathnames in CL simply don't support these queries. 2016-10-05T21:25:15Z rpg: There's no globbing, either. 2016-10-05T21:25:22Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T21:25:47Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-05T21:26:31Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-05T21:26:59Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T21:27:27Z pipping: the result of (directory "/path/to/*/") and (directory "/path/to/*.*") can be anything from nil to a glass of fruit juice. 2016-10-05T21:28:13Z ejbs: rpg: I was thinking that it'd skip the CFFI lib but still use impl. dep. solutions, but I guess that is against what ASDF/UIOP tries to do 2016-10-05T21:28:17Z ejbs: (maybe) 2016-10-05T21:28:45Z rpg: ejbs: we try, but we can't invoke stuff that the implementations don't support. 2016-10-05T21:29:09Z rpg: If there's no SYMLINK-P, UIOP is just out of luck. 2016-10-05T21:30:13Z j0nii joined #lisp 2016-10-05T21:30:48Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T21:30:50Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-05T21:32:42Z rpg: and uiop cannot use CFFI because of its role in bootstrapping ASDF, which loads CFFI! 2016-10-05T21:33:15Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-05T21:33:19Z aeth: Lisp libraries still have a big hole, which is desktop applications. It's getting a bit better, but it's still far from ideal imo. Not like desktop applications are a popular thing right now, though, except for games. 2016-10-05T21:33:33Z phoe: aeth: which is popular enough. 2016-10-05T21:33:45Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T21:33:53Z ejbs: rpg: I was thinking more along the lines of using the implementation's FFI directly 2016-10-05T21:34:01Z rpg: Isn't there a library that's supposed to enable us to use Electron? 2016-10-05T21:34:07Z phoe: ejbs: would not be portable then. 2016-10-05T21:34:16Z phoe: Unless you reinvent CFFI. 2016-10-05T21:34:41Z ejbs: phoe: I know, see above! "against what UIOP/ASDF tries to do" 2016-10-05T21:34:47Z phoe: :P 2016-10-05T21:35:13Z rpg: Even with CFFI, portability is not guaranteed.... oh wait, my C compiler doesn't behave the way CFFI expects! 2016-10-05T21:35:21Z aeth: phoe: If you mean games are popular enough, yes, but their needs are different. Contrast cl-sdl2 with the Qt bindings or something. 2016-10-05T21:35:48Z aeth: Although I *guess* you could build a GUI app in cl-sdl2 with a text library, but it won't look native and will require 3D acceleration. 2016-10-05T21:36:49Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T21:37:43Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-10-05T21:37:55Z aeth: I suspect that in a few years, it'll be much easier to make a game in CL than to make a regular graphical desktop application because most of the interest in GUIs, at least on IRC, seems to be in #lispgames (although some *are* built on Qt) 2016-10-05T21:37:57Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-05T21:38:08Z ejbs: pipping: fare seem a bit tired of CL and ASDF in that comment thread :-) 2016-10-05T21:38:29Z rpg: wasn't there a library that was supposed to enable us to make desktop apps using Electron? 2016-10-05T21:38:34Z ejbs: aeth: What about McCLIM? It's actively developed 2016-10-05T21:38:38Z ejbs: rpg: Ceramic 2016-10-05T21:38:57Z rpg: McCLIM is still at the "looks horrible and counter-intuitive on all platforms." 2016-10-05T21:39:11Z aeth: ejbs: Yes, now it is. Afaik, though, there are only 2 people working on it, while there are maybe up to a dozen working on game related stuff. Just by programmer hours, the game engine stuff should win, but it might just be harder to pull off. 2016-10-05T21:39:17Z phoe: Also, McCLIM is unfit for games. 2016-10-05T21:39:20Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-10-05T21:39:29Z rpg: It's paradigm is really quite different from any familiar UI paradigm. 2016-10-05T21:39:49Z phoe: rpg: deja vu 2016-10-05T21:39:57Z Baggers: aeth: except that's two people working on the same project, whereas lisp-games is a coupel of dozen mostly working on different projects 2016-10-05T21:39:57Z mordocai: aeth: One point on the games ecosystem though is that for the most part people are working on completely separate projects and not sharing much 2016-10-05T21:40:07Z Baggers: snap 2016-10-05T21:40:12Z mordocai: Baggers: :) 2016-10-05T21:40:14Z phoe: I keep on getting "its paradigm is really quite different from any familiar X" at least once a month while I'm discovering Lisp 2016-10-05T21:40:29Z ejbs: rpg: It looks pretty alright (text rendering is nice). The widget look could go for an update though 2016-10-05T21:40:45Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-05T21:40:46Z aeth: mordocai: well, at least the completely separate projects have mostly settled on cl-sdl2 and almost entirely on cl-opengl, so there is some progress. 2016-10-05T21:40:52Z raydeejay: mordocai: it might be because games themselves mandate being different from one another 2016-10-05T21:41:15Z raydeejay: unless you want to make another doom clone (or so), I guess 2016-10-05T21:41:25Z ejbs: rpg: Also, what do you mean by UI paradigm in thiss case? 2016-10-05T21:41:37Z rpg: A real problem for McCLIM is that it relies on the ability of CL to draw very primitive things. So it really doesn't fit modern toolkit frameworks like Qt, gtk, whatever the mac and windows things are. 2016-10-05T21:41:43Z aeth: raydeejay: uh oh, "doom clone" is going to come back in style now that Doom 2016 is out. 2016-10-05T21:41:49Z rpg: ejbs: Direct manipulation./ 2016-10-05T21:41:54Z raydeejay: it never went out of style... xD 2016-10-05T21:42:00Z mordocai personally prefers a program to look exactly the same on all platforms rather than looking "native" 2016-10-05T21:42:02Z rpg: ejbs: CLIM is command-centric 2016-10-05T21:42:26Z rpg: unfort, mordocai that in practice seems to always mean "looks horrible on all platforms" 2016-10-05T21:42:32Z aeth: mordocai: I'm the opposite. Chrome is unusable for me because of this. 2016-10-05T21:42:41Z ejbs: rpg: Do you mean in how the user interacts with thee program? Like the commands provided in the listener program? 2016-10-05T21:42:43Z pipping: ejbs: heh, I think it was rather me who seemed tired ;) 2016-10-05T21:42:47Z rpg: ejbs: Yes. 2016-10-05T21:43:14Z ejbs: rpg: surely that can be changed by the programmer, is it a fix idea of CLIM to have it work that way? 2016-10-05T21:43:21Z raydeejay interest in McCLIM accuses a noticeable spike 2016-10-05T21:43:27Z rpg: That's why there was, a long time ago, a push to make "Emacs-like (?) Systems" that used the emacs paradigm. As a layer on top of CLIM. 2016-10-05T21:43:38Z rpg: ejbs: Yes, CLIM itself is command-centric 2016-10-05T21:43:51Z ejbs: rpg: By direct manipulation, are we talking about the way it renders stuff? 2016-10-05T21:44:31Z ejbs: rpg: Eeeh. I mean, OK, but I've seen CLIM apps which are just the typical "boxes you click on and write in", so it seems to be capable of that too 2016-10-05T21:44:33Z aeth: mordocai: I will have to wind up with a program that looks the same on all platforms, though, because I'm probably going to do everything directly in OpenGL and/or Vulkan 2016-10-05T21:44:34Z rpg: No, the way you interact with a UI by grabbing things and moving them in ways that are supposed to be analogs of what you do. Like drag and drop, menu selection, stretching, etc. 2016-10-05T21:44:50Z pipping desperately needs sleep now; workshop continues tomorrow. goodbye! 2016-10-05T21:44:56Z raydeejay: o/ 2016-10-05T21:44:58Z rpg: good night! pipping 2016-10-05T21:45:01Z ejbs: pipping, good night 2016-10-05T21:45:22Z ejbs: rpg: So drag n drop and so on is NOT CLIM-like? 2016-10-05T21:45:48Z rpg: That's right. Things like menus are made to be sort of transducers that turn gestures into commands. 2016-10-05T21:46:10Z jasom: you could turn drag-n-drop into a command 2016-10-05T21:46:12Z rpg: I programmed it for quite a while, but it never really stopped making my head hurt. 2016-10-05T21:46:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-05T21:46:46Z jasom: but I agree on the clim front; it's somewhat stuck in the world of "GUIs are just ways to make command-line programs more user friendly" 2016-10-05T21:46:47Z rpg: Right, but the object-centric direct manipulation is a real different thing. Like "I selected this thing and now I do stuff to it." 2016-10-05T21:47:15Z rpg: Also, now I use a Mac, and running X-based UIs is nasty. 2016-10-05T21:47:30Z rpg: gitk is really the only one I still use 2016-10-05T21:47:42Z jasom: gitk has a native mac interface 2016-10-05T21:48:12Z rpg: jasom: I need to figure out how to get that! I'm still using the ports one that uses Xquartz. 2016-10-05T21:48:28Z jasom: rpg: just run it through wish manually; it's a tcl/tk program 2016-10-05T21:48:31Z ejbs: Is gitk just a git client? Cuz if so, why not use Magit? It's supposed to be excellent 2016-10-05T21:48:41Z jasom: wish $(which gitk) 2016-10-05T21:48:53Z rpg: I still have a warm spot in my heart for CLIM, but I think it would be easier (see earlier remarks about electron) to use the zillions of person-hours sunk into browsers. 2016-10-05T21:49:05Z raydeejay: ouch 2016-10-05T21:49:15Z ejbs: rpg: Yeah, but they're slow 2016-10-05T21:49:17Z jasom: last time I used os X, it shipped with tcl installed,. Don't know if that's still the case 2016-10-05T21:49:19Z msb joined #lisp 2016-10-05T21:49:24Z raydeejay: they're also browsers 2016-10-05T21:49:26Z ejbs: Like, way slow 2016-10-05T21:49:43Z rpg: ejbs: Most of my UIs don't really care -- I'm not doing games. 2016-10-05T21:50:05Z rpg: CLIM ain't exactly snappy, either. 2016-10-05T21:50:18Z jasom: rpg: my issue with UIs in browsers is latency; if you want low latency it needs to run in the browser. 2016-10-05T21:50:24Z jasom: rpg: same issue with e.g. ltk 2016-10-05T21:50:25Z ejbs: rpg: Well, if it's private consumer (not enterprise/corporate) then I can tell you that I care 2016-10-05T21:50:46Z ejbs: Slow UIs are a pain 2016-10-05T21:51:00Z rpg: jasom: I think that's because of the huge latency from HTTP. If you can use the browser just as the rendering agent for a local program, should be fast, I think. 2016-10-05T21:51:24Z jasom: rpg: as I said, I noticed it with ltk which was also local. 2016-10-05T21:51:28Z rpg doesn't really know as much about electron, as he would like 2016-10-05T21:51:58Z rpg: jasom: I think ltk was just throwing strings at wish 2016-10-05T21:52:20Z ejbs: rpg: That's what ltk does, yes 2016-10-05T21:52:21Z jasom: rpg: any time you want a gui action to run lisp code and then update the gui, you hit a round-trip delay. I found this when e.g. programatically enforcing boundaries on sums of elements (so not just a simple :max 30) 2016-10-05T21:52:35Z aeth: With the exception of a few horribly programmed websites (e.g. SteamSpy), I only ever notice browser speed issues on mobile. 2016-10-05T21:52:37Z jasom: someone hammers on the up-arrow and it gets really laggy 2016-10-05T21:53:04Z ejbs: Time for me to hit the sack too, thanks for the company and conversation 2016-10-05T21:53:08Z jasom: rpg: yes, and it's similar to doing round-trip to a browser locally 2016-10-05T21:53:18Z Baggers: ejbs: goodnight 2016-10-05T21:53:19Z rpg: jasom: So socket delay is enough to be problematic... 2016-10-05T21:53:21Z ejbs: Baggers: Aren't you in Norway? You should be sleeping too! 2016-10-05T21:53:23Z jasom: yup 2016-10-05T21:53:38Z Baggers: ejbs: oh blimey..yeah I guess I should soo 2016-10-05T21:53:48Z Baggers: ejbs: just .. a bit more coding 2016-10-05T21:53:55Z rpg: I have found that my stuff working with browsers has involved me needing to jam more computation into the client.... 2016-10-05T21:54:12Z rpg: but I was never very scientific about it. 2016-10-05T21:54:18Z jasom: rpg: this is why I have so much code in parenscript in cl-fccs (though that *isn't* designed to run in electron) 2016-10-05T21:54:29Z ejbs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T21:55:33Z rpg: jasom: I'm intrigued: what's the appeal of parenscript? the advantage of JS in the browser is that you get a REPL (if a weak one), and if you use Parenscript, aren't you back in the "stop, crash everything, recompile" world? 2016-10-05T21:55:55Z `lain joined #lisp 2016-10-05T21:56:39Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-10-05T21:56:48Z jasom: rpg: macros 2016-10-05T21:56:53Z aeth: hopefully wasm will one day be able to support a real lisp 2016-10-05T21:57:06Z rpg: jasom: I guess I'd rather have the interactive debugging 2016-10-05T21:57:31Z rpg: jasom: Did they every get that 'translate stuff for the debugger' (I forget its name) thing working for parenscript? 2016-10-05T21:57:36Z jasom: rpg: parenscript is sufficiently isomorphic to js for me to be able to debug in javascript 2016-10-05T21:57:44Z rpg: ah. 2016-10-05T21:57:48Z mordocai: rpg: Lucky you, you have interactive debugging for your stuff. 2016-10-05T21:57:51Z jasom: rpg: I don't know, my js assets were too large for firefox to do anything useful with it 2016-10-05T21:57:54Z mordocai is stuck using angular.js at work 2016-10-05T21:58:12Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-05T21:58:27Z jasom: firefox's dev tools grind to a halt when you have too many of the line directives 2016-10-05T21:58:42Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T21:58:46Z jasom: where "too many" is like 10k 2016-10-05T21:59:21Z jasom: plus it made it harder for me to try fixes, since I couldn't figure out how to get it to show me the actual javascript. 2016-10-05T21:59:39Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-05T22:01:04Z rpg: I make a browser based UI every 3 years or so, which is enough for it to be feasible, but sucky. 2016-10-05T22:03:29Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-05T22:03:48Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-05T22:04:30Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-05T22:05:18Z rpg: hm. Looks like ceramic still involves invoking the CL stuff over HTTP. 2016-10-05T22:10:58Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T22:11:30Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T22:16:57Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-05T22:18:53Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-05T22:19:57Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-05T22:26:24Z steventog: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-10-05T22:30:39Z j0nii quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-05T22:34:20Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T22:34:23Z j0nii joined #lisp 2016-10-05T22:36:52Z holycow left #lisp 2016-10-05T22:41:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: In my opinion, mouse-based interaction is the worst part of a GUI 2016-10-05T22:45:29Z rpg: fiddlerwoaroof: Who thought rodents and computers were a good combination, anyway? 2016-10-05T22:45:36Z raydeejay quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T22:45:37Z mordocai: Xerox 2016-10-05T22:45:42Z raydeejay joined #lisp 2016-10-05T22:45:54Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T22:46:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's one thing I dislike about things like Plan9 and Acme 2016-10-05T22:46:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-05T22:47:10Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-05T22:49:56Z mordocai: Yeah, I haven't actually used Acme but I don't find a mouse based interface appealing 2016-10-05T22:50:29Z raydeejay: it works great for a limited numbers of things [23:49] 2016-10-05T22:50:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, paint programs and video games mostly 2016-10-05T22:51:02Z raydeejay: and pointing in general 2016-10-05T22:51:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, in the former case, a tablet is better than a mouse 2016-10-05T22:51:28Z jasom: menu items with keyboard shortcuts listed next to them are great for learning an application 2016-10-05T22:51:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of the GUI patterns that involve pointing are easier to do via a keyboard 2016-10-05T22:51:43Z raydeejay: a touchscreen has the problem that your finger is over what you're pointing at, and also resolution 2016-10-05T22:52:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: By "tablet" I meant something like the Wacom digitizer pads 2016-10-05T22:52:49Z raydeejay: which are terrible for anything that doesn't involve some sort of drawing 2016-10-05T22:55:23Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-05T22:55:24Z raydeejay left #lisp 2016-10-05T22:55:33Z raydeejay joined #lisp 2016-10-05T22:56:01Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-05T22:57:21Z Devon: Tried the "informatimago" single stepper but how do you pronounce it? 2016-10-05T23:01:04Z raydeejay: how do you pronounce what, "informatimago"? 2016-10-05T23:02:56Z raydeejay: in for mat ee mag oh, more or less 2016-10-05T23:05:15Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-05T23:06:41Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-05T23:06:56Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-05T23:11:11Z dwchandler: I had been hearing about Acme for a while but hadn't tried it. Then someone commented that if I was fence-sitting I should watch a video by one of the maintainers, and that it would blow me away and get me on board 2016-10-05T23:11:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: Did it? 2016-10-05T23:11:31Z dwchandler: Hardly. 2016-10-05T23:11:49Z dwchandler: I started laughing at the retro-futurism of it all 2016-10-05T23:11:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Well not many people "got" TheMotherOfAllDemos either. 2016-10-05T23:12:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: dwchandler: Yeah, I've installed and used Acme a bit here and there, I don't get what people like Rob Pike see in it 2016-10-05T23:12:21Z dwchandler: Gotta have that 3 button mouse, gotta click the hell out of everything 2016-10-05T23:12:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: cat-v people I guess, Writing Go with Acme on Plan9 2016-10-05T23:12:47Z totimkopf joined #lisp 2016-10-05T23:12:48Z dwchandler: And the narration of the video demo about taking advantage of modern computers with mice and stuff 2016-10-05T23:13:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: dwchandler: ...you say that like the three button mouse isn't great. 2016-10-05T23:13:11Z raydeejay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-05T23:13:24Z dwchandler: Yeah, yeah, all that stuff people thought was a good idea way back when and then realized it wasn't all that great 2016-10-05T23:13:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: The way that the plan9 window manager works is sort of neat, but I much prefer the paradigm of Xmonad or Stumpwm 2016-10-05T23:13:37Z dwchandler: Petit_Dejeuner: mice aren't great 2016-10-05T23:13:55Z raydeejay joined #lisp 2016-10-05T23:14:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: I thought you meant the three button mouse was specifically bad among mice. 2016-10-05T23:14:14Z dwchandler: mice are useful sometimes, for some programs more than others. for a programming editor I would rather stay away from mice 2016-10-05T23:14:37Z dwchandler: others may feel differently 2016-10-05T23:15:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: I use emacs almost exclusively. I almost never use the mouse. I agree with you about it being less useful. 2016-10-05T23:15:23Z raydeejay: I agree too, a mice is not really useful for editing text 2016-10-05T23:15:26Z Quadresce: I wish emacs was a drag and drop editor. Drag a cons cell to build up your Lisp code 2016-10-05T23:15:29Z raydeejay: except, perhaps, for selecting 2016-10-05T23:15:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: But I may not be a good example of a typical user or even a typical power user. 2016-10-05T23:15:32Z Quadresce: Drag symbols from the symbol pallet 2016-10-05T23:15:51Z Quadresce: drag #' from the reader macro pallet 2016-10-05T23:15:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Quadresce: I'd be surprised if that doesn't already exist. 2016-10-05T23:15:55Z raydeejay: a mouse* 2016-10-05T23:15:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: I mean, Scratch exists. 2016-10-05T23:16:05Z Quadresce: I kid. That would be terrible. 2016-10-05T23:16:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: Too late, it's in Windows 11 already. 2016-10-05T23:16:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: I've seen some smart people swear by data flow programming with GUIs. 2016-10-05T23:17:18Z raydeejay: GUIs are no inherently bad, what's bad is almost every GUI out there 2016-10-05T23:17:28Z anon1887 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-05T23:17:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well the Russians programmed a rocket with a visual programming tool 2016-10-05T23:17:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: fiddlerwoaroof: Really? What kind? 2016-10-05T23:17:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: Space race? 2016-10-05T23:17:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAKON 2016-10-05T23:18:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it was the Buran rocket 2016-10-05T23:19:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, the Russian version of the space shuttle 2016-10-05T23:19:46Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-05T23:22:35Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-05T23:30:31Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-05T23:40:58Z shrdlu68 left #lisp 2016-10-05T23:43:22Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T23:43:46Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-10-05T23:45:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-05T23:47:38Z JohnMcClain joined #lisp 2016-10-05T23:48:35Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-05T23:48:56Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-05T23:50:03Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-05T23:50:41Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-05T23:53:26Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-10-05T23:59:17Z jokleinn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-06T00:03:50Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-10-06T00:06:43Z holycow joined #lisp 2016-10-06T00:06:55Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-06T00:07:23Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-06T00:08:10Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-06T00:12:07Z nulquen joined #lisp 2016-10-06T00:13:00Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-06T00:18:44Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-06T00:19:44Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T00:24:25Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-10-06T00:24:36Z muyinliu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T00:26:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T00:27:45Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T00:31:23Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T00:35:47Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-06T00:38:59Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T00:42:05Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-06T00:45:07Z raoulvdberge quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-06T00:45:57Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T00:52:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T01:01:25Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-06T01:05:32Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-06T01:09:50Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-06T01:11:16Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T01:13:06Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-06T01:14:55Z antonv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T01:23:20Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T01:23:49Z j0nii quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T01:28:40Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T01:31:20Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T01:31:58Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-06T01:34:39Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-06T01:35:57Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-06T01:39:50Z `lain quit (Quit: bye.) 2016-10-06T01:40:07Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-06T01:40:31Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T01:46:38Z Ando_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-06T01:47:45Z Atarian joined #lisp 2016-10-06T01:49:22Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T01:50:57Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-06T01:51:01Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T01:53:07Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T01:55:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:04:35Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-06T02:08:55Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:13:53Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:14:04Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T02:14:56Z rtm1046 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:15:22Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T02:15:29Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T02:18:13Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:20:04Z rtm1046 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T02:21:41Z rtm1046 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:25:51Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T02:28:07Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:32:58Z reepca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T02:36:32Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:40:31Z cpc26_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T02:40:56Z drmeister: My clasp project hit 1000 stars today. 2016-10-06T02:41:44Z drmeister: Whoops - that was meant for skype 2016-10-06T02:42:22Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:43:04Z loke: drmeister: It was still interesting to hear. Congrats! 2016-10-06T02:43:26Z drmeister: Why, thank you. 2016-10-06T02:44:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T02:45:20Z drmeister: CFFI is coming along - frgo is making great progress. He got %mem-ref working and we are working on %foreign-funcall-xxx 2016-10-06T02:45:32Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-10-06T02:45:57Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-06T02:47:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:48:40Z akkad: 1001! 2016-10-06T02:50:44Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:52:42Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T02:54:11Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-10-06T02:55:28Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-06T02:55:38Z hatfolk joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:02:59Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T03:03:41Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:05:49Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:05:59Z dyelar quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-06T03:06:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: /join #clim 2016-10-06T03:06:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: 2016-10-06T03:08:26Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:10:05Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:10:06Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T03:12:05Z watersoul quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T03:12:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Quadrescence: there actually is a mobile app for iOS called "Lisping" that has the mobile equivalent of a drag-and-drop interface for scheme 2016-10-06T03:15:50Z watersoul joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:16:47Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:17:17Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:23:15Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T03:27:47Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T03:28:32Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:38:02Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:41:02Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T03:43:58Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T03:44:14Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:44:32Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-06T03:50:29Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T03:51:39Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:53:28Z safe joined #lisp 2016-10-06T03:56:08Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T03:59:55Z JohnMcClain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T04:00:59Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-06T04:03:24Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:03:31Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T04:05:03Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T04:05:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit 2016-10-06T04:05:14Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T04:07:44Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-06T04:08:41Z akkad: is there something cleaner than getf for accessing nested keys? 2016-10-06T04:09:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:09:23Z akkad: (:|userIdentity| (:|sessionContext| (:|sessionIssuer| (:|userName| "jimbo" :|accountId| ...) => (getf (getf (get ... 2016-10-06T04:10:18Z Bike: pretty easy to write 2016-10-06T04:10:53Z akkad: sure with many getf's, was not sure if there was a more appropriate method 2016-10-06T04:10:56Z Bike: (defun getfs (plist indicators) (if (null indicators) plist (getfs (getf plist (first indicators)) (rest indicators)))) 2016-10-06T04:11:31Z Bike: (getfs whatever '(:user-identity :session-context :session-issuer :account-id)) 2016-10-06T04:11:36Z akkad: hmm. thanks. will digest that. 2016-10-06T04:11:49Z akkad: nice 2016-10-06T04:13:17Z _death: (reduce #'getf indicators :initial-value plist) 2016-10-06T04:13:32Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-06T04:14:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T04:15:26Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-06T04:16:53Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2016-10-06T04:17:07Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-06T04:17:16Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:20:47Z drmeister: Hey Bike! 2016-10-06T04:21:07Z akkad: _death: nice 2016-10-06T04:21:29Z drmeister: I was going to go ahead and upgrade cleavir to incorporate your new changes. 2016-10-06T04:21:33Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-06T04:21:43Z drmeister: Do you have a few minutes to chat about it? 2016-10-06T04:25:16Z Bike: ah. sure. 2016-10-06T04:26:17Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:26:53Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:28:07Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T04:31:08Z trn quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-06T04:31:33Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:34:25Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:34:57Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-06T04:40:31Z clintm joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:44:04Z drmeister: Sorry - I got distracted by a small emergency. 2016-10-06T04:44:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:44:20Z drl joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:45:39Z drmeister: I'm thinking that I need to define a TYPEQ intrinsic for my interpreter and a compiler macro for FIXNUMP that replaces it with (TYPEQ x FIXNUM). 2016-10-06T04:45:43Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T04:46:09Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:47:31Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:47:51Z Bike: sounds right. 2016-10-06T04:48:59Z drmeister: Was there anything else that I needed to do to work with your code? 2016-10-06T04:49:46Z Bike: depends on what you mean by "work with", i guess. if you don't do something with typeq hir instructions there will be problems 2016-10-06T04:49:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T04:50:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-06T04:50:39Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-06T04:53:57Z drmeister: I'll have to think on that. 2016-10-06T04:54:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T04:54:54Z drmeister: Is the second argument always a symbol? It won't be things like (TYPEQ x (OR STRING PATHNAME)) 2016-10-06T04:55:42Z Bike: no, i think it's general CL types. 2016-10-06T04:55:54Z Bike: at present i don't think they're even expanded 2016-10-06T04:59:43Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:00:36Z loke is looking at thes esimple hackerrank challenges 2016-10-06T05:01:13Z loke: Oh my... Most people who submit code write the most boring code 2016-10-06T05:01:40Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:01:49Z drmeister: Ok, I think it's going to be code that checks for tags for FIXNUM, SINGLE-FLOAT, CONS, CHARACTER and checks the object header for other classes 2016-10-06T05:02:07Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-06T05:02:31Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:02:49Z drmeister: I'll give it a try tomorrow. I have to first get FIXNUMP converted to (TYPEQ x FIXNUM) and make sure everything works. 2016-10-06T05:03:13Z Bike: you can probably have the instruction convert at compile time into your mir:fixnump instruction 2016-10-06T05:03:25Z Bike: sorry i can't build clasp enough to help more 2016-10-06T05:04:58Z loke: Oh. I saw a contribution from DeadTrickster 2016-10-06T05:07:40Z drmeister: What problem are you having building clasp? 2016-10-06T05:08:09Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:08:20Z Bike: it builds but slime doesn't work 2016-10-06T05:09:02Z drmeister: Huh. Have you upgraded slime? 2016-10-06T05:09:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T05:09:25Z drmeister: We made some recent changes for source tracking. 2016-10-06T05:09:44Z drmeister: (eq Recent a-couple-of-weeks) 2016-10-06T05:10:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:10:50Z drmeister: I better get to sleep. 2016-10-06T05:10:53Z drmeister: Thank you! 2016-10-06T05:11:00Z Bike: later 2016-10-06T05:11:30Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-10-06T05:12:21Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T05:14:18Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T05:14:51Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:17:39Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-06T05:19:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T05:19:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:22:11Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:24:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T05:26:16Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:32:17Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T05:37:50Z Bike: oh, i forgot to ask him about the nobel. 2016-10-06T05:40:12Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:40:20Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-06T05:40:50Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:45:16Z beach: rpg: It is not quite accurate that the ESA library (Emacs-Style Application) for McCLIM is sitting "on top of" ordinary CLIM and that "CLIM itself is command centric" (if by that you mean that it uses a command line). CLIM is a stratified design. 2016-10-06T05:45:17Z beach: The default command processor indeed uses a command line. But it also provides complete protocols for substituting custom command processors. ESA is such a custom command processor and it is fully integrated into CLIM, using documented protocols. 2016-10-06T05:47:39Z beach: In other words, an application written using the CLIM specification would continue to work if one were to replace the default command processor with ESA. Of course, initially, there would be no keyboard shortcuts, and one would have to use M-x to execute all commands, but it would still work. 2016-10-06T05:47:57Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T05:48:52Z beach: It would be interesting for me to know what other GUI toolkits could do something similar. I mean, I don't doubt that they can, I just don't know any others really, so I am interested. 2016-10-06T05:51:08Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-06T05:51:45Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-06T05:52:29Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T05:56:34Z myrkraverk: I'm not exactly familiar with clim, so I can't say. 2016-10-06T05:56:48Z myrkraverk: But nothing in either Qt or BeOS comes to mind. 2016-10-06T05:59:15Z myrkraverk: On to something totally different, are you guys aware of anime with Lisp? 2016-10-06T05:59:33Z myrkraverk: I googled Serial Experiments Lain, but I'm curious if other anime out there include Lisp. 2016-10-06T05:59:47Z myrkraverk: (actually, ddgd, not googled) 2016-10-06T06:00:11Z Bike: the perfect insider op is pretty great and has some. 2016-10-06T06:01:18Z Bike: it's not on youtube but it has some CA stuff which i think is from the cmu archive, like lain. 2016-10-06T06:02:02Z Bike: oops, it was the ending. https://vimeo.com/144126206 2016-10-06T06:03:27Z beach: Anyway, I must go. I just wanted to clear up that little misconception. 2016-10-06T06:03:31Z beach left #lisp 2016-10-06T06:05:23Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T06:05:38Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:07:04Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:13:40Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T06:15:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T06:18:39Z happy-dude quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T06:18:41Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T06:19:09Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:19:26Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T06:21:20Z drl quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-10-06T06:22:13Z p_l joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:22:24Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:22:25Z DeadTrickster: loke, where? 2016-10-06T06:22:47Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:26:34Z yaewa joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:27:30Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T06:27:37Z jackdaniel: some points are really in point, we need tutorials building intuition and showing how to achieve some stuff in McCLIM for programmers who used Qt or something else already :) 2016-10-06T06:27:44Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:28:01Z jackdaniel: points really in point - this phrasing looks ugly even to me :p 2016-10-06T06:28:05Z jackdaniel: good morning :) 2016-10-06T06:28:42Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:29:34Z jackdaniel: but generally I can't agree that it's better to give up and use something with javascript based 2016-10-06T06:29:43Z jackdaniel: s/with/what is/ 2016-10-06T06:30:01Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:30:09Z fouric: myrkraverk: Serial Experiments Lain actually mentions Lisp in the anime itself? 2016-10-06T06:30:15Z fouric: ....or is it *created* with Lisp somehow? 2016-10-06T06:30:31Z jackdaniel: I think code shown on the monitor is Lisp 2016-10-06T06:30:47Z fouric: ach 2016-10-06T06:30:51Z myrkraverk: fouric: I checked, in the start of episode 7, there's a "screenshot" of Lisp code. According to the intertubes, it's an implementation of game of life. 2016-10-06T06:30:59Z fouric: that's linux boot information i see there 2016-10-06T06:30:59Z myrkraverk: I can see a defun in there, and the usual parenthesis. 2016-10-06T06:31:07Z fouric: what's it called... 2016-10-06T06:31:10Z fouric: dmesg 2016-10-06T06:31:12Z Bike: like i said, it's from the CMU ai repository. 2016-10-06T06:31:29Z Bike: lain also learns C in a high school class. on a blackboard. terrifying to contemplate. 2016-10-06T06:31:37Z fouric: YUP I SEE A CLISP 2016-10-06T06:31:40Z myrkraverk: fouric: in Serial Experiment Lain? Check the very start of episode 7 -- that's what I'm looking at. 2016-10-06T06:32:06Z fouric: wow 2016-10-06T06:33:01Z jackdaniel: I had C class without computer at UNI (we had labs with computer as well) - I'd say I've learned a lot 2016-10-06T06:33:06Z fouric: is the show itself any good, aside from their excellent choice of PL? 2016-10-06T06:33:14Z Bike: yes. 2016-10-06T06:33:25Z myrkraverk: I've not actually watched SEL myself, yet. 2016-10-06T06:34:02Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:34:21Z Bike: ah. iirc this is the code that's in lain. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/fun/life.cl 2016-10-06T06:35:06Z jackdaniel: looks very lispy :) 2016-10-06T06:35:19Z fouric: that's a lot of setf's 2016-10-06T06:35:40Z Bike: setqs, even. 2016-10-06T06:35:43Z dmiles: i am porting the codebase of http://www.cc.com/video-clips/p8wqsa/the-colbert-report-the-enemy-within---bina-the-activist-android to Lisp :P 2016-10-06T06:35:48Z Bike: it's not even hashlife. how terrible. 2016-10-06T06:37:24Z dmiles: (since the etopic was AI) 2016-10-06T06:37:50Z myrkraverk: Hmm, I see a defmacro in the screenshot, but not in that code. So I think it's more than just life.cl. 2016-10-06T06:38:14Z Bike: bummin me out 2016-10-06T06:38:27Z myrkraverk: There seem to be two code bases superimposed on the screen, parts of it seem to be life.cl, but not all of it. 2016-10-06T06:39:22Z myrkraverk: But these lines are there, definitely: (when (< i (world-xmin world)) (setf (world-xmin world) i)) 2016-10-06T06:39:55Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T06:40:12Z myrkraverk: Or just the same code base mirrored. 2016-10-06T06:40:31Z Bike: that file is standalone in the archive. you could look through the rest if you want, there's a bunch of stuff. 2016-10-06T06:41:34Z myrkraverk: Ah, yeah. 2016-10-06T06:41:45Z myrkraverk: But I'm not /that/ curious. 2016-10-06T06:42:10Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-06T06:42:29Z myrkraverk: The mirror effect of the code is kind of cool though, code is going down, while the mirror scrolls up. 2016-10-06T06:42:43Z myrkraverk: But I think it'd be annoying to code in that kind of an editor. 2016-10-06T06:43:37Z Bike: what's the screenshot? 2016-10-06T06:45:09Z myrkraverk: I'm actually looking at it frame by frame, in the episode itself. 2016-10-06T06:45:30Z Bike: nerd! 2016-10-06T06:45:39Z myrkraverk: Haha. 2016-10-06T06:45:48Z myrkraverk: http://8ch.net/tech/res/663483.html has a screenshot. 2016-10-06T06:45:50Z happy-dude quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T06:46:06Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T06:46:23Z Bike: i'm more concerned that she is reading code in an oscilloscope. 2016-10-06T06:47:11Z myrkraverk: Hahaha, yeah. 2016-10-06T06:47:11Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T06:51:36Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:52:23Z p_l joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:54:54Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T06:55:09Z myrkraverk: Now I have to wonder if it's possible to output code on an oscillascope. But I'm not a signal or hw nerd to know. 2016-10-06T06:57:36Z Bike: a modern oscilloscope just has a regular lcd monitor, and microprocessors in it, so maybe, but you'd have to do a lot of hacking 2016-10-06T06:57:52Z Bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMli33ornEU arbitrary graphics are easy though 2016-10-06T06:58:29Z easye: Is there a CL 2016-10-06T06:58:57Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:58:58Z easye: err "Is there a CL abstraction for VirtualBox's `VBoxManage` command line util? 2016-10-06T06:59:03Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-06T06:59:27Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:02:27Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:05:32Z myrkraverk: Bike: that's awesome. 2016-10-06T07:06:17Z myrkraverk: easye: I don't know, but if it has C bindings, you can roll your own with CFFI -- or if not, you can also use SBCL's posix extension (though I think that's way harder). 2016-10-06T07:06:57Z myrkraverk: I'm unfamiliar with the generics of subprocess handling in Lisp. 2016-10-06T07:07:33Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-06T07:07:44Z easye: No easily accessible C bindings for VBoxManage. I'll just script what I need with UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM invocations. 2016-10-06T07:08:55Z easye: myrkraverk: UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM has matured a lot across implmentation recently due to the work of Elias Pipping. 2016-10-06T07:09:13Z myrkraverk: easye: Good to know. 2016-10-06T07:09:24Z easye: I think UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM now represents the API every implementation should be supporting. 2016-10-06T07:11:36Z easye: UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM sure helps my multi-implementation work along. Nice being able to have four reasonable free CL implementations (ABCL, CCL, SBCL, ECL) to get different sort of diagnostics from while debugging. 2016-10-06T07:11:41Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:12:06Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:12:21Z myrkraverk: So far, I've just stuck to SBCL. 2016-10-06T07:12:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:12:30Z justinabrahms quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T07:12:57Z rtm1046 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T07:13:18Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:13:20Z easye: myrkraverk: SBCL is a quite reasonable primary implementation. Nice to have monthly updates. 2016-10-06T07:13:26Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:13:38Z myrkraverk: Yeah. 2016-10-06T07:13:50Z myrkraverk: Though just a few days ago I ran into an actual SBCL bug c; 2016-10-06T07:13:57Z myrkraverk: But it was fixed almost immediately. 2016-10-06T07:17:07Z watersoul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T07:19:10Z myrkraverk: When I use SBCL's (with-alien ...) or (make-alien ...) and create an array; can I query later the length of the array? 2016-10-06T07:19:49Z myrkraverk: (alien-size ...) seems to be for types only, not actual allocations. 2016-10-06T07:19:52Z loke: myrkraverk: I don't think so. As far as I can remember, make-alien just mecomes a call to malloc 2016-10-06T07:20:31Z justinabrahms joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:20:39Z myrkraverk: But (format t "~a~%" (make-alien (array char 10))) ; actually displays the length. 2016-10-06T07:20:42Z itscaleb quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T07:21:02Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:21:08Z myrkraverk: So I was kind of expecting to be able to get a hold of it programmatically too. 2016-10-06T07:21:10Z watersoul joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:21:34Z myrkraverk: Or this does, on my system: (with-alien ((buffer (array char 10))) (format t "~a~%" buffer)) 2016-10-06T07:22:38Z loke: myrkraverk: That's just the actual number you passed in. 2016-10-06T07:22:41Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T07:24:23Z myrkraverk: Well, that'd still be helpful, to reduce the number of "hard coded" values. 2016-10-06T07:25:51Z Bike: it looks like the sb-alien-internals:alien-value structure has a slot for the type (which is where the printer gets it), but it's not an exported interface 2016-10-06T07:26:39Z loke: myrkraverk: You might want to look at SB-VM:ALLOC-ALIEN-STACK-SPACE 2016-10-06T07:26:51Z loke: myrkraverk: That's what your WITH-ALIEN boils down to. 2016-10-06T07:27:01Z Bike: particularly sb-alien-internals:alien-value-type 2016-10-06T07:27:31Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:27:49Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:27:53Z myrkraverk: thanks, I'll take a look later. 2016-10-06T07:28:32Z loke: myrkraverk: Basically it's a VOP which seems to do nothing more than add some constant to the stack pointer. 2016-10-06T07:29:08Z myrkraverk: Ah. 2016-10-06T07:31:15Z loke: At least that's what it seems to be. I find looking at the SBCL itnernals to be amazingly entertaining. 2016-10-06T07:31:55Z myrkraverk: C: 2016-10-06T07:32:18Z loke makes the casual observation that with Lisp, it's ridiculously easy to analyse what's going on, all the way from your code, through third-part libraries down into the runtime implementation itself. 2016-10-06T07:32:22Z myrkraverk: I have been wondering about one thing, is it possible to code SBCL with inline assembly? 2016-10-06T07:32:25Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T07:32:42Z loke: Is it just me, or is understanding what third-part Lisp code does _much_ easier than doing the same for your average Java/Javascript/C++/whatever library? 2016-10-06T07:32:51Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:33:10Z loke: myrkraverk: Yes 2016-10-06T07:33:20Z myrkraverk: loke: that's been my experience with stuff in QL so far, and that's why I use it. 2016-10-06T07:33:30Z loke: myrkraverk: The best way is to define a new VOP and use it. 2016-10-06T07:34:13Z easye: loke: it has to be somewhat learned. I have a very proficient Java programmer (really top 1% of all Java coders) who cannot (or will not) understand my CL. 2016-10-06T07:34:43Z easye: Or mebbe it is just my code... 2016-10-06T07:35:14Z easye: Perhaps I should try him on a CL library that implements some solution to a problem domain he understands. 2016-10-06T07:35:14Z loke: easye: I used to be a top 1%-ish Java developer (I have a history at Sun). 2016-10-06T07:35:26Z easye: loke: I know a bit about ya... 2016-10-06T07:35:27Z loke: And I _still_ find Lisp code to be much easier to work with and understand. 2016-10-06T07:35:55Z easye: Agreed. But being a great programmer in language X doesn't necessarily make CL easy to understand. 2016-10-06T07:35:57Z loke: And I specifically refer to _others_ Lisp/Java code. 2016-10-06T07:36:05Z easye: And that works well? 2016-10-06T07:36:13Z easye: What do you give them to undersand ANSI CL? 2016-10-06T07:36:43Z myrkraverk: loke: I have history of implementing JDBC, and I have to say that some parts of it make it really hard to implement properly. 2016-10-06T07:36:44Z loke: easye: True. But I think the biggest problem with Java is that any decently designed application tends to get a lot more layers beforce you get to the real code, compared to Lisp which is much more... hmm... "direct". 2016-10-06T07:37:08Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:37:23Z easye: Yes, but Java 8 starts to make inroads to better explicit terseness with lambdas. 2016-10-06T07:37:35Z easye: They still don't expose the AST from the compiler easily... 2016-10-06T07:37:37Z loke: myrkraverk: Well yes. Any Java API which is flexible enough to accommodate wildly different implementations (such as JDBC) becomes quite frustrating to deal with. 2016-10-06T07:37:49Z loke: (when it comes to implementing said API, not necessarily using them) 2016-10-06T07:37:55Z myrkraverk: Yeah. 2016-10-06T07:38:03Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:38:56Z loke: That said, there are definitely aspects of Java that I like, which is still why I want potato to run on ABCL :-) 2016-10-06T07:39:22Z easye: loke: any suggestions on how to "soften" my Java programmer's approach to CL? _PCL_ is such a agitprop text for someone who is already half convinced that Lisp is dead. 2016-10-06T07:39:52Z myrkraverk: On the other hand, expending the postgres driver for postmodern is quite easy. IIRC, way easier than extending the JDBC driver(s) I touched in the past. 2016-10-06T07:39:55Z easye is working on potato. "You owe me an open source build recipe, doncha loke?" 2016-10-06T07:40:00Z loke: easye: Wait what? You know enough to Lisp to not _need_ PCL. :-) 2016-10-06T07:40:29Z loke: easye: Yeah. I started building a docker-thingy for it. Then I descovered that docker was a bad choice :-) 2016-10-06T07:40:32Z myrkraverk: I keep going back to PCL chapters c; 2016-10-06T07:40:42Z easye: Not me. I need to convince a fellow engineer that my Lisp code might be a reasonable code base to reuse parts of the prototype in the product. 2016-10-06T07:40:43Z loke: easye: What operating system are you on? 2016-10-06T07:40:48Z easye: loke: all. 2016-10-06T07:41:04Z easye: But mainly a Debian Linux for reference. 2016-10-06T07:41:31Z loke: easye: All right. I think I will build a simple shellscript that sets up a base development environment. 2016-10-06T07:41:31Z easye: Real instances run under the freebsd 11 bhyve hypervisior (which can be any amd64 OS). 2016-10-06T07:41:34Z loke: That'll be much easier. 2016-10-06T07:41:54Z loke: easye: I'll be travelling next week, so I'll do it then at the hotel :-) 2016-10-06T07:42:04Z easye: When you have the time. 2016-10-06T07:42:07Z loke is going to Beirut. Yay, good food! :-) 2016-10-06T07:42:39Z easye can't figure out how to find the time torelease abcl-1.4.0. "But it would be nice to include fixes for Potato if needed." 2016-10-06T07:42:54Z loke: Yay! 2016-10-06T07:43:09Z loke: OK, I'll build the scripts in the next couple of days. 2016-10-06T07:43:15Z yaewa quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-06T07:43:20Z loke: I'll set up a few VM's at home so I can test it on different distros. 2016-10-06T07:43:36Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:43:36Z easye: CentOS/Debian should cover Linux well. 2016-10-06T07:44:31Z loke: In a couple of weeks I'm doing a talk at the local Emacs meeup group. I'll cover Lisp development with SLIME. 2016-10-06T07:44:33Z easye: Mmm. "The Paris of the Orient." 2016-10-06T07:44:50Z easye: loke: good to get a screencast... 2016-10-06T07:44:52Z loke: easye: It's a pretty city, based on what I have seen from pictures (and been told :-) ) 2016-10-06T07:45:02Z easye: Especially if you can show them how to switch backends. 2016-10-06T07:45:06Z loke: easye: Interesting idea. I wonder if they can set up some recording. 2016-10-06T07:45:27Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T07:45:36Z loke: The talk will be at the Pivotal Labs offices here in Singapore. If anyone wants to join. :-) 2016-10-06T07:45:43Z easye likes Paris itself. 2016-10-06T07:45:51Z loke: http://www.meetup.com/Emacs-SG/ 2016-10-06T07:46:18Z loke: easye: I'm not a huge fan of Paris myself. 2016-10-06T07:46:18Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:46:18Z HeyFlash joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:46:53Z loke works for a French-Lebanese company with the largest offices being Paris and Beirut. I've tarvelled to the Paris office countless times,. but this will be my first visit to Lebanon. 2016-10-06T07:47:01Z easye: Ah. It's like Vienna: as long as you ignore the locals, you'll be fine. 2016-10-06T07:47:28Z loke: easye: That, and the poop on the streets :-) 2016-10-06T07:47:37Z easye: Aren't they the same? 2016-10-06T07:47:47Z loke: Haha 2016-10-06T07:48:31Z easye [jealous]: has never seen Beriut either. 2016-10-06T07:48:57Z loke: easye: Yeah. I usually dislike travelling, but when visiting a new place it's ok 2016-10-06T07:49:22Z easye: Yep. Novelty usually implies alterity. 2016-10-06T07:49:26Z easye: or vice versa. 2016-10-06T07:49:46Z loke: A pity I won't have much time to actually see the city. 2016-10-06T07:50:00Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T07:50:05Z easye: That's what booking your own flights gets ya. 2016-10-06T07:50:23Z easye: Just extend either leg by part of a day to get a chance to walk around. 2016-10-06T07:53:23Z easye: Anyways, to return to my question about how to get a Java programmer to read my Lisp code. If _PCL_ is too agitprop, what about Graham's _ANSI Common Lisp_. The ray tracer in there is a thing of beauty in my humble opinion. 2016-10-06T07:53:45Z easye: And there is the Common Lisp edition of _PAIP_. 2016-10-06T07:54:07Z myrkraverk: loke: btw, what excatly do you mean by VOP? 2016-10-06T07:54:19Z easye: The money text is _On Lisp_. But almost no one who hasn't understood ANSI CL can grok that. 2016-10-06T07:55:03Z loke: myrkraverk: "virtual opcode" I think 2016-10-06T07:55:13Z easye: Can I buy a hardcover edition of _On Lisp_? 2016-10-06T07:55:19Z myrkraverk: easye: some days ago we were discussing on-lisp, and it seems it contains some bad advice; particularly wrt. TCO which CL doesn't guarantee. 2016-10-06T07:55:20Z easye: (one with all the diagrams) 2016-10-06T07:55:35Z easye: myrkraverk: Not aware of the TCO problem. 2016-10-06T07:55:48Z loke: easye: To me, it sounds like what you need is Common Lisp Recipies. 2016-10-06T07:55:57Z easye: err TCO? something about evaluation order of arguments? 2016-10-06T07:56:02Z myrkraverk: I haven't read on-lisp recently (and when I did, I didn't understand it) so I can't really say much about it myself. 2016-10-06T07:56:07Z loke: easye: Tail call optimisation. 2016-10-06T07:56:07Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: I think that since you practically can get TCO on most popular implementations, then it's not that bad advice (same history as with threading for instance) 2016-10-06T07:56:16Z myrkraverk: easye: tail-call-optimization. 2016-10-06T07:56:19Z easye: TCO isn't a problem in my book. 2016-10-06T07:56:30Z loke: jackdaniel: ABCL doesn't give it to yu. 2016-10-06T07:56:35Z easye: I am willing to write iterative code to get around. 2016-10-06T07:56:43Z easye actually likes CL:LOOP. 2016-10-06T07:56:54Z loke: So you have one fully-features CL implementation without any TCO support. That alone should be a reason not to ever expect it 2016-10-06T07:57:01Z loke: LOOP is awesome :-) 2016-10-06T07:57:15Z jackdaniel: DO is awesomer :D 2016-10-06T07:57:20Z easye: Right. ABCL needs to abstract its computation once more to be able to dynamically compile parts of the codepath for TCO. 2016-10-06T07:57:21Z jackdaniel hides under the rock 2016-10-06T07:57:32Z easye: And then feed that abstraction to the abcl-2.0 compiler. 2016-10-06T07:57:42Z loke: jackdaniel: If so, then just stick with TAGBODY 2016-10-06T07:57:42Z easye: Or that is the plan anyways. Resources are lacking. 2016-10-06T07:57:52Z loke: jackdaniel: Oh wait. DO implies TAGBODY doesn't it? 2016-10-06T07:57:57Z jackdaniel: loke: DO is a very clever abstraction of recursion which guarantees tco 2016-10-06T07:58:02Z larsen: what about "Lisp in small pieces" ? I didn't buy a copy yet (the price kind of discourages me, but I guess I eventually will buy) 2016-10-06T07:58:23Z jackdaniel: hm, if you macroexpand it then yes, but it's the same story with loop - it will expand to tagbody eventually 2016-10-06T07:58:29Z Bike: lisp in small pieces is neat, but specialized, and i think operational semantics are out of vogue 2016-10-06T07:58:38Z easye: myrkraverk: _On Lisp_ finally made me get CL macros. And then a whole new world opened up for coding. 2016-10-06T07:58:42Z myrkraverk: Do I have to do something special to enable sb-posix? 2016-10-06T07:58:45Z jackdaniel: larsen: very enlightening, but it's not about CL - it describes more fundamental stuff related to lisp in general 2016-10-06T07:59:02Z myrkraverk: Because, now when I try to use it in a "naked script" SBCL is complaining it can't find that package. 2016-10-06T07:59:02Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-06T07:59:03Z loke would like to see a use of DO that takes advantage of everything, including init and stepping forms as well as gotos. :-) 2016-10-06T07:59:11Z loke: That'd be nightmarish 2016-10-06T07:59:11Z jackdaniel: gotos? 2016-10-06T07:59:16Z Bike: myrkraverk: i think just asdf:load-system it 2016-10-06T07:59:19Z myrkraverk: (naked script = no quicklisp, no asdf, no nothing) 2016-10-06T07:59:21Z jackdaniel: loke: did you use do? ,þ 2016-10-06T07:59:21Z Bike: or require if you feel like it 2016-10-06T07:59:23Z loke: jackdaniel: the form in DO is a TAGBODY, so you can use GO in it. 2016-10-06T07:59:35Z easye: larsen: _Lisp in Small Pieces_ is awesome for an implementor, but you need to understand what it is implementing c'nes pas? 2016-10-06T07:59:45Z loke: To quote the spec: "The remainder of the do (or do*) form constitutes an implicit tagbody." 2016-10-06T07:59:57Z Bike: i just make tagbody a macro expanding to continuation passing style 2016-10-06T08:00:13Z loke: Bike: That's what Clojure does. 2016-10-06T08:00:15Z jackdaniel: loke: I'm afraid I don't understand, some expansions of LOOP also have implicit tagbody, but it's just implementation detail 2016-10-06T08:00:28Z myrkraverk: "Package ASDF does not exist." <--- wait, is my SBCL bokren? 2016-10-06T08:00:39Z loke: jackdaniel: My point is that DO is specified to be a tagbody form. 2016-10-06T08:00:40Z Bike: myrkraverk: you just said this had no asdf 2016-10-06T08:00:46Z Bike: myrkraverk: so (require :sb-posix) instead 2016-10-06T08:00:51Z larsen: easye: sure 2016-10-06T08:00:52Z loke: jackdaniel: So it's valid to use GO inside a DO form. 2016-10-06T08:00:54Z myrkraverk: Bike, the script wasn't using it. 2016-10-06T08:01:08Z jackdaniel: loke: I'm sure you can misuse loop in way worse ways too, that doesn't change the fact, that DO isn't about tagbody 2016-10-06T08:01:20Z myrkraverk: Bike: right, thanks. 2016-10-06T08:01:43Z myrkraverk: I guess I've become too accustomed to have sb-posix loaded implicitly, through QL or something else. 2016-10-06T08:01:47Z loke: jackdaniel: Correct. 2016-10-06T08:02:01Z loke: jackdaniel: My point was that perhaps DO is overspecified? 2016-10-06T08:03:02Z jackdaniel: I think it is meant to be useful as a building block for other iteration constructs. In its general form it is also a recursion syntactic sugar 2016-10-06T08:03:04Z Orion3k quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T08:03:53Z easye concedes that DO is probably the way to go, but is still to wedded to an internally wired understanding of LOOP syntax. 2016-10-06T08:04:37Z easye: (and therefore also CL:LOOP implementation idiosyncrasies) 2016-10-06T08:04:38Z loke agrees with easye 2016-10-06T08:04:59Z loke: LOOP allows you to formulate all these looping constructs in a single macro. 2016-10-06T08:05:08Z loke: With an easier-to-read syntax. 2016-10-06T08:05:22Z jackdaniel: I'd say it's matter of taste/what you saw more 2016-10-06T08:05:39Z solene: how could I generate a string from this list '("my " text " from a variable") with text being a variable 2016-10-06T08:05:40Z jackdaniel: also all in "all constructs" is very narrow "all" 2016-10-06T08:06:02Z Bike: clhs concatenate 2016-10-06T08:06:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm 2016-10-06T08:06:03Z Bike: @solene 2016-10-06T08:06:10Z easye: "a painfully acquired internally wired [reliance] on CL:LOOP syntax" 2016-10-06T08:06:14Z jackdaniel: solene: (format nil "my ~a from a variable" text) 2016-10-06T08:06:28Z jackdaniel: or concatenate, yeah 2016-10-06T08:07:38Z easye: solene: (format nil "my ~{~a~} from a variable" list-of-strings) 2016-10-06T08:07:41Z solene: I'll re-read concatenate, I've not been able to use it successfully here. Thanks for your answer 2016-10-06T08:08:17Z jackdaniel: solene: you need to also provide the return type, like (concatenate 'string "bah" "foo" "bar") 2016-10-06T08:09:02Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-06T08:09:09Z solene: jackdaniel: I need to need apply to give concatenate the parameters ? 2016-10-06T08:09:18Z solene: s/to need/to use 2016-10-06T08:09:45Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if I understand the question 2016-10-06T08:10:10Z solene: I can't use (concatenate 'string '("here" "is" "a" variable)) 2016-10-06T08:10:13Z jackdaniel: I'd go with format (as presented by me and easye), but concatenate is just a function, you may use apply but you don't have to 2016-10-06T08:10:28Z jackdaniel: (cocnatenate 'string "here" "is" "a" variable) 2016-10-06T08:10:42Z Bike: (apply #'concatenate 'string (list "here " "is " "a " variable)) 2016-10-06T08:10:49Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-10-06T08:10:53Z jackdaniel: or indeed apply: (apply #'concatenate 'string `("here" "is" ,variable)) 2016-10-06T08:11:31Z jackdaniel: (use list, backquote may look awkward :) 2016-10-06T08:11:53Z solene: thanks for your answers, this is what I was looking for :) 2016-10-06T08:14:38Z moore33: jackdaniel: I think backquote is great and use it whenever possible, unless nothing in the list is quoted. 2016-10-06T08:15:20Z easye: moore33: Yep. But as soon as backquotes start nesting, I rewrite. Saves so much pain. 2016-10-06T08:16:16Z jackdaniel: moore33: yes, I'm using it all the time, just thought that it might be confusing for solene 2016-10-06T08:16:43Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-06T08:16:50Z moore33: easye: I like the brain-teaser aspect of nested backquote :) 2016-10-06T08:20:35Z solene: http://lpaste.net/244486 2016-10-06T08:20:40Z solene: it's a bit harder than what I thought 2016-10-06T08:21:14Z Bike quit (Quit: slerp) 2016-10-06T08:21:53Z solene: I don't know how I can get the variable name to be replaced by its value 2016-10-06T08:24:27Z Olical joined #lisp 2016-10-06T08:25:26Z woody___ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T08:25:33Z woody___: hello 2016-10-06T08:26:37Z woody___: I'm trying to create a list of vectors but when I use append I get a list that includes the individual elements of each vector, can anyone help me? 2016-10-06T08:27:25Z jackdaniel: solene: in concatenate use cdr 2016-10-06T08:27:45Z jackdaniel: (cdr (assoc 'sms …)) 2016-10-06T08:28:51Z solene: jackdaniel: why ? btw I did it to see what would happen, I have the error the value "problem in" is not of type CHARACTER 2016-10-06T08:29:43Z rtm1046 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T08:29:48Z solene: maybe I need to write a function that will parse the list and insert a , before the symbols and give it to format 2016-10-06T08:31:17Z muyinliu quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-06T08:34:35Z jackdaniel: solene: assoc entries are (KEY . VAL) 2016-10-06T08:34:43Z jackdaniel: so car gives you KEY, and cdr gives you VAL 2016-10-06T08:36:21Z solene: jackdaniel: the (cadr (assoc 'sms *alerts*)) return exactly what I want 2016-10-06T08:36:47Z jackdaniel: OK, then I have misunderstood your indentation (or misread the code), sorry 2016-10-06T08:37:19Z solene: the problem is that I would like NAME and DATE to be replaced by they values defined before 2016-10-06T08:37:22Z jackdaniel: if you are interested in interpolation of strings and variables you may want to use cl-interpol 2016-10-06T08:37:26Z jackdaniel: http://weitz.de/cl-interpol/ 2016-10-06T08:37:51Z solene: I tried to avoids external libraries to keep the program easy to deploy 2016-10-06T08:37:53Z moore33: solene: Your problem is trying to substitute a variable (symbol) value into a constant list. 2016-10-06T08:38:11Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-06T08:39:08Z moore33: solene: Try (eval `(list ,@result)) to get a list with the value of DATE in the list. 2016-10-06T08:39:09Z solene: wouldn't it be possible with something like that ? (mapcar #'(lambda(x) (if (symbolp x) `,x x)) 2016-10-06T08:39:40Z moore33: solene: I'm assuming that result holds the value of your assoc query. 2016-10-06T08:40:22Z solene: (mapcar #'(lambda(x) (if(symbolp x) (eval x) x)) (cadr (assoc 'sms *alerts*)))) 2016-10-06T08:40:27Z solene: I had to use eval here 2016-10-06T08:40:30Z solene: it's good now 2016-10-06T08:41:01Z moore33: solene: Yes, the mapcar would work. You need to use the symbol-value function to get the value of the global variable. 2016-10-06T08:41:52Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-06T08:41:58Z solene: moore33: nice ! working too with symbol-value instead of eval (and I prefer it) 2016-10-06T08:42:10Z moore33: :) 2016-10-06T08:42:19Z solene: then with format it's pretty clean 2016-10-06T08:42:25Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T08:42:36Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-06T08:43:41Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-06T08:44:02Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T08:44:37Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T08:45:09Z anon1887 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T08:49:25Z loke: re 2016-10-06T08:55:07Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T08:56:35Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:06:28Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:07:55Z myrkraverk: Why does (with-alien ...) behave differently from (make-alien) with the type (array char 10) ? 2016-10-06T09:08:00Z myrkraverk: In sb-alien. 2016-10-06T09:08:31Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-06T09:09:29Z myrkraverk: (make-alien (array char 10)) ; ==> # 2016-10-06T09:09:58Z myrkraverk: (with-alien ((b (array char 10))) b) ; ==> # 2016-10-06T09:10:10Z myrkraverk: With identical data types, the * is "lost". 2016-10-06T09:10:35Z myrkraverk: Is this another SBCL bug? 2016-10-06T09:14:00Z redeemed joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:20:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:20:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-06T09:20:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:21:19Z myrkraverk: This means, that when I try to sb-posix:read into the buffer, the (make-alien ...) works, while (with-alien ....) doesn't. 2016-10-06T09:22:41Z woody___: I would like to dinamically insert elements consisting of a string and two numbers in a list, is this possible? 2016-10-06T09:23:26Z thinkpad quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-06T09:24:48Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:27:52Z thinkpad quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-06T09:27:54Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T09:28:39Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:31:05Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-06T09:33:43Z myrkraverk: woody___: Yes, I believe so, just (list string number1 number2) ; -- or does the list already have more stuff in it? 2016-10-06T09:34:08Z myrkraverk: Alternate syntax: `( ,string ,number1 ,number2 ) 2016-10-06T09:35:43Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:36:26Z woody___: myrkraverk: I wanted to have one list element containing the three, more like a list of arrays maybe ([str1 n11 n12] [str2 n21 n22]...) 2016-10-06T09:36:36Z MatrixBridge joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:36:38Z MatrixBridge left #lisp 2016-10-06T09:37:10Z woody___: I need to dynamically add the elements, I use append 2016-10-06T09:37:37Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:37:38Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:38:16Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T09:38:38Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-06T09:39:14Z myrkraverk: (list #( "foo" 1 2 ) #( "bar" 3 4 ) ) ; works, if you're constructing the list from scratch. 2016-10-06T09:40:41Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T09:42:15Z woody___: hmm thanks, I'm going to try with append and # 2016-10-06T09:45:50Z woody___: myrkraverk: doesn't work u_u I do this (setq filesDataList (append filesDataList #(fname newLength totalDur))) multiple times and list size is 3 always. I'm thinking on just having a list with everything and access the elements like (index*3+[0,1,2]) 2016-10-06T09:46:32Z raydeejay wonders if he woke up in 1981 2016-10-06T09:48:48Z myrkraverk: woody___: This is how I got a quick test to work: (setf bar (append bar (list #( "a" 1 2 )))) 2016-10-06T09:49:20Z myrkraverk: raydeejay: No, too late for that, we're still in 1977 here. 2016-10-06T09:50:51Z myrkraverk: woody___: the crucial part is the (list ...) surrounding the vector #( ... ). 2016-10-06T09:52:29Z woody___: myrkraverk: cool, it worked, thanks! :D 2016-10-06T09:52:56Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:53:40Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:53:52Z MolluskEmpire quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T09:54:05Z solene: can someone explains me why I can use variables defined with defparameter and not ones defined with let in a lambda function ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/327835 2016-10-06T09:54:44Z Grue`: because let of lexical variables does not affect symbol-value 2016-10-06T09:55:48Z Grue`: if you use both defvar AND let, it will also work 2016-10-06T09:56:17Z solene: Grue` is it possible to use values of the let variables from the lambda function then ? 2016-10-06T09:56:41Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T09:57:16Z Grue`: the lambda function can see them. but you're passing in the symbols, not the variables 2016-10-06T09:59:28Z solene: I just found a workaround, I don't know if there is a better one 2016-10-06T09:59:35Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-10-06T09:59:40Z solene: (let ((vars (list :var1 "value" :var2 "value")))) and then use 2016-10-06T09:59:42Z solene: (getf vars (intern (symbol-name x) "KEYWORD")) 2016-10-06T09:59:44Z Grue`: the point of lexical variables is that you can only use them within the lexical block. but if the lambda could access them by name, you'd be able to access them outside of the block, by getting the lambda out 2016-10-06T10:00:16Z solene: Grue` I have the exact same problem if I put the let inside the lambda function 2016-10-06T10:00:51Z Grue`: it doesn't matter where you put it, it's just the principle 2016-10-06T10:01:37Z Grue`: kind of like in math, you have a formula of `x'. but you can replace `x' with anything else, and the formula meaning doesn't change 2016-10-06T10:03:13Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:03:33Z solene: ok, but when x has the value "symbol VAR1", can we get the value of VAR1 ? 2016-10-06T10:04:42Z Olical quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T10:04:57Z Grue`: no, because VAR1 is just a lexical placeholder within a certain block of code; when this code is compiled the name of variable is not even preserved 2016-10-06T10:05:02Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:05:41Z solene: that what I was thinking 2016-10-06T10:06:11Z lugus35[m]: solene: put (declare (special var1) (special var2)) before the 'print' call 2016-10-06T10:07:04Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-06T10:07:22Z Grue`: you can see it in SBCL backtraces with debug off, the local variable names are something like ARG-0, ARG-1 2016-10-06T10:07:37Z lugus35[m]: solene: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327835#1 2016-10-06T10:08:07Z solene: lugus35[m]: I will check what is the declare function 2016-10-06T10:08:41Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:08:51Z lugus35[m]: See let documentation examplehttp://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/s_let_l.htm#let : 2016-10-06T10:09:01Z solene: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327837 is it a bad solution ? 2016-10-06T10:09:32Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-06T10:10:39Z lugus35[m]: solene: it depends on what function you want to implement. It seems a bit too complicated and convoluted. 2016-10-06T10:12:15Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-06T10:12:31Z Grue`: why do you need keywords? you can just use (list 'var1 "test" ...) and ditch the conversion to keyword 2016-10-06T10:12:34Z solene: what I'm doing with the function would be hard to explain. i'm extracting the name of functions to variables then I make replacements inside list of strings and symbols to replace symbols with the variables before 2016-10-06T10:13:44Z solene: finally to do send a mail with "the function " function-name-here " failed" 2016-10-06T10:14:53Z lugus35[m]: I think that (declare (special)) is the way to go, but I've may have not understood well. 2016-10-06T10:15:25Z solene: lugus35[m]: no it's perfect :) I changed the list with keywords and getf with special 2016-10-06T10:15:29Z solene: I didn't know special 2016-10-06T10:16:42Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T10:17:05Z Olical joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:17:19Z Grue`: it's bizarre, why not just pass the function name symbols? 2016-10-06T10:17:34Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T10:17:45Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:18:00Z solene: i'm changing this, but it doesn't change a lot of code ? 2016-10-06T10:18:58Z solene: the final function http://paste.lisp.org/display/327839 2016-10-06T10:21:19Z msb joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:21:28Z moore33: solene: Why are you interning level? 2016-10-06T10:22:06Z Grue`: function-name isn't actually used anywhere? 2016-10-06T10:22:28Z moore33: solene: I hesitate to bring this up, you might find the progv special form more suited for your usage. 2016-10-06T10:22:31Z solene: moore33: *alerts is something like '( (mail "error in " function-name) (sms "critical error " function-name)) 2016-10-06T10:23:08Z solene: Grue` so function-name may be called if it's in the assoc result 2016-10-06T10:23:14Z solene: moore33: I need to use intern for assoc 2016-10-06T10:23:18Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T10:23:24Z Grue`: seems like it's more a problem with the syntax for *alerts* 2016-10-06T10:23:25Z moore33: solene: Isn't the value of level a symbol? 2016-10-06T10:24:29Z solene: moore33: hmm, I have (trigger-alert (symbol-name ',level) (symbol-name ',function-name)) maybe I can just remove symbol-name when I call trigger-alert ? 2016-10-06T10:24:34Z solene: that seem logical :D 2016-10-06T10:24:48Z moore33: Yes. 2016-10-06T10:25:26Z solene: yeah, good. I have been losing a lot of time on this, tried a LOT of things, that was one of the try ^^ 2016-10-06T10:26:56Z Grue`: (cond ((eql x 'function-name) function-name) ... (t x)) 2016-10-06T10:27:15Z Grue`: no need for that symbol-value stuff at all 2016-10-06T10:28:09Z Grue`: just add more conditions for more variables. maybe write a macro that generates the cond 2016-10-06T10:28:12Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:28:37Z solene: I don't know why I didn't go this way at first, seems easier 2016-10-06T10:28:53Z Grue`: (or maybe CASE instead of COND) 2016-10-06T10:31:10Z solene: Grue` case is working great, and is easier 2016-10-06T10:31:42Z solene: but sbcl give me a warning on it : Duplicate key QUOTE in CASE form, occurring in the first clause: ('FUNCTION-NAME FUNCTION-NAME), and the second clause:('LEVEL LEVEL 2016-10-06T10:31:54Z solene: I did (case x ('function-name function-name) ('level level)) 2016-10-06T10:31:54Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-06T10:34:26Z razzy89__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T10:34:32Z AlphaAtom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T10:35:21Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:36:20Z Grue`: shoudl be (case x (function-name function-name)) 2016-10-06T10:36:28Z Grue`: it's already quoted 2016-10-06T10:36:59Z Grue`: otherwise it matches both x=QUOTE and x=FUNCTION-NAME 2016-10-06T10:37:44Z solene: i don't understand, how can it works (I tried and it works) because I thought I was needing string 2016-10-06T10:38:27Z Grue`: CASE doesn't actually work with strings at all. it compares by EQL 2016-10-06T10:38:58Z solene: yes, I have symbols in case, when when it matchs the symbol and that I return a symbol, I give it to format 2016-10-06T10:39:14Z solene: which translate it... 2016-10-06T10:39:23Z solene: ok 2016-10-06T10:44:40Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:44:56Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-06T10:45:28Z loke: There is a STRING-CASE package in QL which is what it sounds like. 2016-10-06T10:48:37Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T10:49:01Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:49:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T10:49:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:50:36Z lugus35[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T10:50:36Z M-Illandan quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-10-06T10:50:36Z M-moredhel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T10:53:07Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:55:31Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-06T10:58:38Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T10:59:54Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T11:02:20Z pseudonymous quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-06T11:04:03Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:06:43Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:06:43Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:10:08Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-06T11:10:09Z jrpls quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-06T11:10:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:11:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:15:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T11:16:17Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T11:16:22Z loke` quit (Read error: Network is unreachable) 2016-10-06T11:16:36Z loke` joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:17:41Z jrpls joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:20:35Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:22:03Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T11:22:53Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:24:12Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:28:33Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:30:57Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:33:36Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:35:11Z foom joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:36:52Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:37:22Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:39:23Z `lain joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:45:00Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:57:04Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:57:06Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T11:57:15Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-10-06T11:59:19Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T11:59:24Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-06T11:59:31Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:01:42Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:03:41Z madbub joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:07:23Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:14:03Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:17:19Z jdz quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-06T12:17:26Z jdz_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:23:27Z Olical quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:25:26Z dlowe: there's also a SWITCH in alexandria that allows you to specify the comparator 2016-10-06T12:26:57Z rtm1046 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:27:12Z woody___ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:27:23Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:27:39Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:28:06Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:29:19Z rtm1046 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:35:40Z solene: is there a way to have sockets working on multiple lisp compiler without usocket ? 2016-10-06T12:35:47Z solene: (with the same code) 2016-10-06T12:36:59Z jackdaniel: solene: no, different implementations have different API, so you need to use usocket. (you could also use cffi and do the OS calls by yourself, but I doubt you want that) 2016-10-06T12:37:05Z dlowe: There's iolib, too. 2016-10-06T12:37:13Z dlowe: You need to use *something* 2016-10-06T12:37:29Z dlowe: even if you write that something yourself 2016-10-06T12:38:04Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:38:17Z solene: I was afraid of that. I don't want to rely on quicklisp but I think I will end with it 2016-10-06T12:39:08Z XachX_: solene: you can "export" the projects you need from quicklisp if you like 2016-10-06T12:39:12Z moore33: It's hard to imagine not using quicklisp in this day and age. 2016-10-06T12:39:47Z jackdaniel: moore33: I think it's more about distribution of the software 2016-10-06T12:40:02Z moore33: jackdaniel: even so... 2016-10-06T12:40:03Z solene: I'm writing a piece of software to be very light and easy to use. Non lisper may think it's going to hard to have to install quicklisp 2016-10-06T12:40:09Z jackdaniel: solene: Quicklisp has "bundles" concept, it exports projects for you and the project doesn't rely on Quicklisp itself 2016-10-06T12:40:35Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:40:43Z XachX_: Yes. You can lump everything in an easy to load lump of lump. 2016-10-06T12:40:48Z jackdaniel: moore33: I think it would be unwise to ship with your software something, what connects to the internet and downloads code 2016-10-06T12:41:00Z solene: jackdaniel: and then tgz the whole and distribute with my software ? 2016-10-06T12:41:01Z jackdaniel: s/something/with something/ 2016-10-06T12:41:15Z jackdaniel: solene: yeah, that's what I did a few times 2016-10-06T12:41:23Z solene: that seems reasonable 2016-10-06T12:41:39Z p_l joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:41:42Z jackdaniel: wonderful feature :) 2016-10-06T12:41:56Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:41:57Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:43:03Z solene: from my side, when I find a software written in python/perl/whatever needing to install by hand dependencies with pip/cpan etc.. I try to avoid it if I can't get the libraries from my package manager (or I write packages to send it to the operating system repository if I REALLY need it) 2016-10-06T12:44:07Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:44:48Z waynecolvin joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:45:36Z jackdaniel: sounds reasonable to me 2016-10-06T12:46:08Z jackdaniel: for development I don't have such objections myself though 2016-10-06T12:46:26Z jackdaniel: for delivery I just use bundles 2016-10-06T12:46:36Z Grue`: good luck with installing anything written for Node.js *shudders* 2016-10-06T12:46:50Z solene: Grue` I don't use it :D 2016-10-06T12:47:07Z jackdaniel: heh 2016-10-06T12:47:34Z solene: jackdaniel: when YOU do the software, you have the choices 2016-10-06T12:47:44Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:48:12Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T12:48:14Z solene: as a system administrator, when I find something usefull, I can only get what the developper choosed to provide. Sometimes my own requirements aren't met so I use something else 2016-10-06T12:48:15Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:48:21Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:48:26Z jackdaniel: right 2016-10-06T12:49:12Z solene: as I'm writing software for people like me, I use my requirements :P 2016-10-06T12:49:33Z Olical joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:51:02Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-06T12:55:42Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T12:56:41Z sohail joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:01:42Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T13:09:04Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:09:26Z jdz_ is now known as jdz 2016-10-06T13:12:28Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-06T13:12:43Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:14:18Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:14:18Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Changing host) 2016-10-06T13:14:18Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:17:29Z djh: solene: why do you only want to install things from cpan etc via the package manager? 2016-10-06T13:17:39Z djh: I think I'd double my workload if I went that route :) 2016-10-06T13:18:06Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-10-06T13:19:47Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T13:23:54Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T13:25:09Z freedom01 quit (Quit: Run free!) 2016-10-06T13:27:35Z solene: djh: lots of distributions provides p5-stuff for perl cpan modules 2016-10-06T13:28:24Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:28:54Z solene: you can also use perlbrew to have a user perl without "infecting" the system with non packages files, or virtualenv for python 2016-10-06T13:29:38Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:30:37Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T13:31:22Z djh: yeah, perlbrew & virtualenv are what we use 2016-10-06T13:34:01Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:34:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T13:35:49Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-06T13:36:11Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:38:31Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T13:40:42Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds) 2016-10-06T13:40:44Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:41:00Z beaky: wow lisp has a virtualenv? 2016-10-06T13:41:07Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-06T13:41:20Z beaky: oh python 2016-10-06T13:43:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:44:11Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:44:37Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:46:27Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:46:38Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T13:47:16Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:48:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T13:49:06Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T13:53:08Z dwchandler: that's usually, "Oh, python! Why?!" 2016-10-06T13:53:28Z raydeejay: import resignation 2016-10-06T13:53:36Z dlowe: Because Python is the a great Common Lisp compiler. 2016-10-06T13:53:42Z dlowe: At least the only Python that matters. 2016-10-06T13:53:46Z raydeejay: hah 2016-10-06T13:54:07Z dlowe: You know, the implementation that first called itself Python. 2016-10-06T13:54:34Z raydeejay: I am aware of it, yeah 2016-10-06T13:54:53Z jackdaniel: is there some other python? 2016-10-06T13:55:16Z dlowe: some C program 2016-10-06T13:55:16Z raydeejay: there's that thing that chokes if you mix tabs and spaces 2016-10-06T13:56:20Z dwchandler: raydeejay: from future import despair 2016-10-06T13:56:30Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:56:35Z raydeejay: you misspelt present 2016-10-06T13:56:54Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:57:06Z jackdaniel: (good one) 2016-10-06T13:57:19Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T13:57:26Z raydeejay: one strives for a certain ingenuity xD 2016-10-06T13:57:48Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:00:14Z rtm1046 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T14:01:06Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:01:32Z JoshYoshi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T14:01:55Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:01:56Z JoshYoshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T14:02:46Z HeyFlash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T14:02:55Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T14:03:13Z cromachina quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-06T14:03:42Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:05:45Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:09:35Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:11:21Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T14:12:15Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:15:58Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:17:14Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:22:31Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:23:59Z titankiller quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T14:27:50Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:28:21Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:28:32Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-06T14:28:59Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:30:24Z m00natic` joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:30:28Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T14:32:03Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-06T14:34:18Z hiyosi quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-06T14:34:42Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T14:35:03Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:35:41Z lucasb_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:36:29Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T14:37:33Z nulquen quit 2016-10-06T14:43:22Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:44:07Z RichardPaulBck[m left #lisp 2016-10-06T14:45:59Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:46:04Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T14:46:59Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:47:34Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:51:54Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-06T14:53:35Z gbyers quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-06T14:53:53Z tobel quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T14:54:19Z wyan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T14:54:20Z ggherdov quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T14:54:51Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ALWAYS supply the package argument. 2016-10-06T15:18:05Z Xach_: knobo: if you never refer to them in code otherwise, how would you even reference them after you get them? 2016-10-06T15:18:30Z Xach_: knobo: I can imagine some convoluted scenarios, but I'm curious about your possible convoluted scenario... 2016-10-06T15:18:31Z rpg: Otherwise someone ends up calling your code with *package* bound in an unexpected way, yielding weird and often hard-to-diagnose errors. 2016-10-06T15:18:31Z knobo: Xach_: pass them to djula... 2016-10-06T15:18:59Z Xach_: knobo: ok, then sure, predefining them in some way is good. i think i would do it in defpackage, but the defparameter works fine too. 2016-10-06T15:19:54Z _death: could also just use a hash-table mapping parameter names to symbols 2016-10-06T15:19:57Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-06T15:20:11Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T15:21:01Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:21:06Z knobo: alist is better. 2016-10-06T15:21:15Z knobo: for so small lists. 2016-10-06T15:22:05Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:25:59Z tobel joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:26:52Z _death: I don't like this "analysis".. my remark should hint at (translate-to-symbol ) and whether it's a hash-table of some kind or alist or whatever is inconsequential 2016-10-06T15:26:58Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-06T15:27:57Z Xach_: or some kind of "package" system 2016-10-06T15:28:15Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:28:32Z gbyers joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:29:03Z _death: right.. though if you constrain yourself to the CL package system interface you may have less control 2016-10-06T15:29:37Z _death: e.g., multiple parameter names mapping to the same symbol 2016-10-06T15:30:01Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:31:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:33:54Z wyan joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:34:13Z JuanDaugherty quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-06T15:35:56Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T15:36:02Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T15:36:33Z rann joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:37:05Z gendl joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:38:15Z MorTal1ty joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:38:41Z beaky: - 2016-10-06T15:38:46Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-06T15:39:21Z knobo: ok, sorry for making you upset. 2016-10-06T15:40:42Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:43:53Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:48:54Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:52:06Z unrahul quit (Quit: Updating details, brb) 2016-10-06T15:52:18Z unrahul joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:53:01Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-06T15:53:08Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:54:32Z steventog quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-06T15:54:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T15:57:53Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T15:59:10Z solene: is function read the only way to convert a string to a float ? 2016-10-06T15:59:47Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-06T16:01:06Z solene: s/read/read-from-string 2016-10-06T16:01:10Z knobo: solene: there is not parse-float or parse-double 2016-10-06T16:02:11Z knobo: There is a library for making floats, as far as I remember. 2016-10-06T16:02:21Z knobo: Or, maybe that was for portable floats. 2016-10-06T16:02:25Z dwchandler: http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 2016-10-06T16:02:48Z dwchandler: I haven't used it, so I can't recommend either way 2016-10-06T16:03:04Z solene: thanks dwchandler and knobo 2016-10-06T16:03:11Z solene: but read-from-string works, is that bad ? 2016-10-06T16:03:15Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-06T16:03:31Z dwchandler: no 2016-10-06T16:03:59Z dwchandler: consider with-input-from-string and then read. or not 2016-10-06T16:04:01Z _death: it is bad if you don't trust the input 2016-10-06T16:04:16Z knobo: Make sure *read-eval* is nil 2016-10-06T16:04:35Z _death: there are many libraries to parse floats.. parse-float, serapeum, parse-number.. 2016-10-06T16:04:49Z solene: _death: I try to avoid external libraries as much as possible 2016-10-06T16:05:16Z knobo: as a born lisper... 2016-10-06T16:05:56Z solene: I explained it on the chan a few hours earlier. It easier to redistribute it if it doesn't need any external library :) 2016-10-06T16:06:44Z knobo: If the library is in quicklisp, it is no difference. 2016-10-06T16:06:58Z solene: and without quicklisp too 2016-10-06T16:07:09Z edgar-rft: solene: keep in mind that *READ-DEFAULT-FLOAT-FORMAT* is by default 'single-float 2016-10-06T16:07:27Z knobo: without quicklisp lisp software is not easy to distribute at all. 2016-10-06T16:08:03Z solene: edgar-rft: this is good to know. I only parse `uptime` output to get loads of the system, it's only 2 decimal digits 2016-10-06T16:08:06Z knobo: lisp withouth quicklisp is like software on floppy disks. 2016-10-06T16:08:30Z edgar-rft: knobo: you can always dump an image and distribute that. 2016-10-06T16:08:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-06T16:08:49Z solene: knobo: I am writing a software for non lisper, nobody except lispers have quicklisp installed 2016-10-06T16:09:22Z solene: edgar-rft: if you provide an image with sbcl for example, will it be compatible only with the same operating system ? 2016-10-06T16:09:29Z knobo: But ig you dump an image, then it does not matter if you use a library or not. Except for the license 2016-10-06T16:10:33Z beaky: hmm so lisp has a smalltalk-type problem where its image-based paradigm just doesnt mesh well with the rest of the system? 2016-10-06T16:10:57Z knobo: And if you don't make opensource software, and use lispworks for example, then you can use lispworks parse-float 2016-10-06T16:11:58Z edgar-rft: solene: most often yes, but e.g. CLISP dumps bytecode images, so you only need a os-specific loader 2016-10-06T16:12:24Z jackdaniel: knobo: when you devlier your software to the client who isn't developer there is no need to attach the package manager with it 2016-10-06T16:12:36Z solene: edgar-rft: so if I want to provide a dump I would need to do it for each combination of FreeBSD/OpenBSD/Linux i386/amd64/ ? 2016-10-06T16:12:51Z jackdaniel: happily we have https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html 2016-10-06T16:13:15Z edgar-rft: solene: for all CL implementations that compile to native code: yes 2016-10-06T16:13:40Z solene: ok, I think sbcl create a core image os independant 2016-10-06T16:14:49Z Xach_: No. 2016-10-06T16:15:10Z edgar-rft: solene: a sbcl image for ARM will surely not run on x86 2016-10-06T16:16:32Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T16:16:35Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T16:17:17Z dwchandler: also an image for x86 linux will not run on x86 freebsd 2016-10-06T16:18:43Z Xach_: One option is to make something so great that people will put up with some inconvenience to use it! 2016-10-06T16:18:50Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-06T16:19:03Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-06T16:19:21Z cmpitg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-06T16:19:40Z dwchandler: How is CL support on the CI farms these days? 2016-10-06T16:20:11Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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It looks like they've taken advantage of recent github stuff to reduce the permissions required. It's still too much for my paranoia, but it's much better now 2016-10-06T16:58:01Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-06T16:58:05Z raydeejay: heh 2016-10-06T16:58:36Z dwchandler: because github finally broke out some permissions rather than "a nobody" and "keys to the kindgom" 2016-10-06T16:58:51Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:00:15Z jasom: anyone know what ASDF/BACKWARD-INTERFACE:OPERATION-ERROR implies? 2016-10-06T17:01:07Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:02:01Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:03:32Z rpg: jasom: That's something like a compilation error. 2016-10-06T17:03:40Z rpg: more context? 2016-10-06T17:04:19Z rpg: so do people use travis instead of jenkins, because they're running on github? 2016-10-06T17:04:44Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-06T17:04:47Z raydeejay: ah, right, jenkins, what I had was jenkins xD 2016-10-06T17:05:09Z jasom: rpg: the only output I get that seems to indicate an error is "OPERATION-ERROR while invoking # on #" 2016-10-06T17:05:18Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:06:19Z cmpitg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:06:25Z rpg: jasom: I'm trying to find a place in the code that signals an operation error -- or even a compile-error (which ISA operation-error), and I'm coming up empty. 2016-10-06T17:06:33Z rpg: how old is your ASDF? 2016-10-06T17:06:43Z jasom: a few weeks? 2016-10-06T17:07:12Z jasom: I needed one of the recent changes (forgetting which one now) so it's very recent 2016-10-06T17:07:42Z jasom: wait, let me check I may be thinking of something else. 2016-10-06T17:08:10Z rocx joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:08:10Z rpg: Actually, I'm looking at this code, and it seems like the signal is done by UFFI itself, not ASDF. 2016-10-06T17:08:32Z rpg: comment on operation-error: " Used by SBCL, cffi-tests, clsql-mysql, clsql-uffi, qt, elephant, uffi-tests, sb-grovel" 2016-10-06T17:08:58Z rpg: ASDF itself does not use these condition classes, which is why they are in backward-interface.lisp 2016-10-06T17:09:02Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:09:09Z cmpitg joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:09:09Z cmpitg quit (Changing host) 2016-10-06T17:09:09Z cmpitg joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:09:33Z jasom: ah 2016-10-06T17:10:25Z Olical quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:11:04Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:13:27Z rpg: jasom: Gotta go, but you should have enough info to go poking around in UFFI now. 2016-10-06T17:17:43Z jasom: rpg: thanks! 2016-10-06T17:18:30Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:19:05Z jackdaniel: probably you want to check cffi-uffi , not uffi per se (usually the former is pulled) 2016-10-06T17:19:21Z jackdaniel: (cffi-uffi is a compatibility layer for uffi) 2016-10-06T17:19:26Z MolluskEmpire quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:19:28Z jasom: jackdaniel: this is running ql2nix which tries to make a nix package for each system in quicklisp 2016-10-06T17:19:38Z MolluskEmpire joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:20:01Z titankiller quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:20:32Z Ioann quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:20:33Z jasom: it is working on about 2000 systems now. 2016-10-06T17:20:37Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:20:37Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:21:08Z jasom: I had a brief detour where I tried to map ql projects to nix packages instead, but there were way too many circular dependencies (I was hoping I could just deal with a single-digit number as special cases). 2016-10-06T17:23:11Z jasom: I'm back to doing it with systems, and I made a change where the source for the ql-project is a separate package and all the systems that are provided by that project have a dependency on that. This way the source only gets installed once. 2016-10-06T17:24:03Z rocx: is there a sensible CLOS tutorial or otherwise something for loading multiple lisp files with classes? 2016-10-06T17:24:23Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:25:09Z jackdaniel: minion: tell rocx about PCL 2016-10-06T17:25:09Z minion: rocx: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2016-10-06T17:25:24Z rocx: i meant besides PCL. 2016-10-06T17:26:07Z jackdaniel: "loading multiple lisp files with classes" sounds a bit confusing 2016-10-06T17:26:18Z Bike: there's nothing special about loading files with classes in them. are you having a particular issue? 2016-10-06T17:26:20Z jackdaniel: you may read about clos in cl-cookboog a little 2016-10-06T17:26:25Z Bike: with class definitions in them* 2016-10-06T17:26:36Z rocx: argh. i think i meant loading them as packages under the :use aspect. 2016-10-06T17:26:36Z rocx: 2016-10-06T17:26:54Z jackdaniel: classes are rather orthogonal to packages 2016-10-06T17:27:11Z Grue`: you basically have to export all accessors/slots 2016-10-06T17:27:15Z rocx: ah. exporting. 2016-10-06T17:27:27Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:29:21Z rocx: oh bother i'll just cram these classes into one file. 2016-10-06T17:30:05Z jackdaniel: rocx: you may have multiple files being in the same package 2016-10-06T17:30:14Z jackdaniel: (in-package package-name) at the top should be suficient 2016-10-06T17:30:20Z jackdaniel: sufficient° 2016-10-06T17:30:31Z rocx: ...fair enough. 2016-10-06T17:30:40Z rocx probably should have noticed that. 2016-10-06T17:32:32Z Grue`: it's a lazy way out. i have a gargantuan package that took over 5 files already (and growing) that really needs to be split but I can't because it's too much work 2016-10-06T17:33:39Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:33:43Z jasom: how small or large packages should be is hard to determine 2016-10-06T17:33:44Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:33:59Z rocx: i'd wager to a particular domain it's trying to solve. 2016-10-06T17:35:20Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:35:35Z m00natic` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T17:36:44Z jasom: it's an engineering decision, so there are tradeoffs. On top of that it is a software engineering decision, and software engineering is still a nascent field, so even in the places where there is likel an objevtive correct answer, we currenlty lack the tools to determine it, so subjective decisions are made. 2016-10-06T17:37:02Z jasom: s/likel/likely/ 2016-10-06T17:37:13Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:38:47Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-06T17:39:53Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:41:00Z steventog joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:41:51Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-06T17:45:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:47:23Z reepca joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:49:23Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:51:00Z Grue`: (loop for s being each present-symbol in (find-package :foo) count s) 2016-10-06T17:51:18Z Grue`: :cl has 977 symbols. my biggest package has 778 2016-10-06T17:51:54Z Xach_: cl has 978 2016-10-06T17:52:13Z Xach_: in theory, you could have the massachusetts phone number 978-SYM-BOLS 2016-10-06T17:52:26Z edgar-rft: Limberbutt McCubbins needs your vote! 2016-10-06T17:52:27Z Grue`: hmm, why does my :cl lack a symbol? 2016-10-06T17:53:05Z Xach_: Grue`: how did you measure? 2016-10-06T17:53:27Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:53:32Z MolluskEmpire quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:53:34Z Grue`: I posted the code 2016-10-06T17:54:26Z Xach_: hmm 2016-10-06T17:54:50Z Th30n_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:55:01Z Xach_: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/01_i.htm 2016-10-06T17:55:42Z ym: Is there an implementation which supports optimized circular buffers? 2016-10-06T17:55:46Z Grue`: now I need to write a program to figure out which of those is missing 2016-10-06T17:56:01Z Xach_: ym: optimized in what way? 2016-10-06T17:56:30Z ym: Xach_, for example, as wikipedia suggests: "mapping the underlying buffer to two contiguous regions of virtual memory". 2016-10-06T17:56:34Z edgar-rft: maybe the loop starts counting with 0 and ends with 977, what are 978 symbols 2016-10-06T17:57:20Z ym: Honestly, I don't know how it works in low level. 2016-10-06T17:57:28Z toogley left #lisp 2016-10-06T17:58:05Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-06T17:58:05Z Bike: you could mmap yourself. 2016-10-06T17:58:16Z beaky: what is the lisp memory model 2016-10-06T17:58:23Z Grue`: oh, I know, count nil doesn't count it 2016-10-06T17:58:31Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T17:58:39Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-06T17:58:43Z beaky imagines it to be cons cells floating in the nether 2016-10-06T17:58:55Z Bike: well, pretty much. 2016-10-06T17:59:07Z Xach_: Grue`: parfait! 2016-10-06T17:59:10Z Bike: there's not much model. there are objects and there is a somewhat obscure concept of reachability. 2016-10-06T17:59:50Z beaky: ah 2016-10-06T18:00:23Z beaky: i guess a memory model is simply irrelevant the usage of lisp? 2016-10-06T18:00:24Z Bike: if you want theory it's sort of a pointer machine. boring though. 2016-10-06T18:00:28Z beaky: oh 2016-10-06T18:00:55Z Bike: the point is that it's very decoupled from the underlying memory of the machine. 2016-10-06T18:01:04Z Bike: memory model of the machine 2016-10-06T18:01:30Z Th30n_ is now known as Th30n 2016-10-06T18:03:00Z ym: Ok. Another question. Is there a known attempt to re-implement any lisp-machine in FPGA? 2016-10-06T18:03:27Z Bike: probably some little ones, but there's not a lot of point. 2016-10-06T18:05:03Z Xach_: ym: marc battyani has talked a little about his fpga compiler in CL 2016-10-06T18:05:43Z ym: Aha, found this guy. Thanks. 2016-10-06T18:06:14Z brandonz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T18:06:33Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:07:59Z attila_lendvai: my friend (Gergo Erdi) is reimplementing the commodore line of computers in FPGA, VGA output, everything. he uses a haskell DSL to generate the VHDL. 2016-10-06T18:09:21Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:09:52Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T18:12:41Z ym: And I see there is promising сl-vhdl project. 2016-10-06T18:13:49Z eschatologist: there have been many attempts to reimplement lisp machines 2016-10-06T18:14:07Z eschatologist: Brad Parker even did a Verilog version of the CADR after his CADR emulator 2016-10-06T18:16:36Z eschatologist: if you haven't played with a LispM you can at least run the CADR emulator and Meroko to get a little bit of a feel 2016-10-06T18:17:53Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T18:18:00Z madbub_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:18:09Z madbub quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T18:18:19Z ym: Yep, found his repository on github. Very interesting. Thanks. 2016-10-06T18:21:17Z eschatologist: link? last I saw he didn't have one. 2016-10-06T18:21:36Z ym: Brad Parker? 2016-10-06T18:22:08Z nullwork quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T18:22:12Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:22:14Z eschatologist: yeah 2016-10-06T18:22:27Z eschatologist: the CADR stuff was on unlambda.com 2016-10-06T18:22:36Z ym: https://github.com/lisper 2016-10-06T18:22:42Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T18:23:23Z eschatologist: excellent, thank you 2016-10-06T18:24:02Z ym: np 2016-10-06T18:25:32Z nullwork joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:26:21Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T18:27:25Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:29:27Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T18:30:19Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-06T18:30:50Z froggey joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:33:46Z steelbird quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T18:34:19Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:34:43Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:35:25Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:38:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:42:12Z slowup joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:44:22Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:48:41Z johnwilkins quit (Quit: ...) 2016-10-06T18:50:48Z attila_lendvai: where did clasp get its CLOS? I'm trying to load closer-mop and wondering if I can just weasel out and use e.g. closer-mop's ecl code... 2016-10-06T18:51:02Z attila_lendvai realizes he's on the wrong channel 2016-10-06T18:51:47Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:55:20Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:55:52Z attila_lendvai: what should closer-mop do on a lisp it doesn't support? currently it's asdf system definition reads into a bogus plist because of the uncovered #+clasp, which makes loading the asd file itself break, even if there are no dependencies to it 2016-10-06T18:56:39Z attila_lendvai: hrm, maybe it should use ASDF's :if-feature feature... 2016-10-06T18:56:44Z slowup left #lisp 2016-10-06T18:56:58Z mnoonan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T18:57:53Z mnoonan joined #lisp 2016-10-06T18:58:41Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T18:58:58Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:05:20Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:07:21Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-06T19:10:27Z beaky: i love lisp 2016-10-06T19:10:43Z rocx: that's why i'm trying to learn it. 2016-10-06T19:13:11Z titankiller quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T19:13:53Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T19:15:35Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:17:18Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T19:23:15Z warweasle: rocx: Hope you are having fun. 2016-10-06T19:23:54Z beaky: yes dealing with lisp is far more pleasant than dealing with haskell 2016-10-06T19:24:01Z warweasle: rocx: If you are really psychotic you can peek in at #lispgames. But not for too long lest the madness consume you. 2016-10-06T19:24:01Z beaky: or javascript 2016-10-06T19:24:49Z warweasle: beaky: I've slipped javascript into my work projects. Lisp is not forbidden...because I'm the only one who knows it. 2016-10-06T19:24:59Z madbub_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T19:25:16Z rocx: warweasle: i'm barely able to program annything without having to run into here for help with how the details work (like CLOS, packages, etc). 2016-10-06T19:26:05Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T19:26:10Z rocx: like, the "proper way" or rather, the "correct way" of making a lisp program. 2016-10-06T19:26:43Z warweasle: rocx: That's ok. The CLOS, packages and other advanced features aren't super important if you have the basics down. 2016-10-06T19:28:43Z warweasle: rocx: Well...there isn't really a "proper" way except for making your code look functional. As in (if ...) returns a value so you don't need ar varible to hold it. Usually. Everything else is just what you understand best. With macros you can even create psudeo languages for your particular need. 2016-10-06T19:29:44Z warweasle: Although I think conditions and restarts are awesome. 2016-10-06T19:30:11Z rocx: warweasle: so basically the REPL is the only way a Lisp environment works? 2016-10-06T19:30:13Z madbub joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:30:31Z warweasle: rocx: No, not at all. You can just run a program. 2016-10-06T19:32:00Z warweasle: rocx: But for development it's super efficient. As for restarts, the REPL just uses the built in functionality. Your own code can create new conditions & restarts. And you can select which restart to use in your code. 2016-10-06T19:32:19Z rocx: ...wait how would "just running a program" work? 2016-10-06T19:33:06Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-06T19:33:08Z warweasle: if you use sbcl: sbcl --load myprogram.lisp 2016-10-06T19:34:00Z rocx: ooooooh. 2016-10-06T19:34:05Z warweasle: rocx: You can also use sbcl's (save-lisp-and-die ...) to create an executable. Every implementation seems to have it's own way of handling delivery. 2016-10-06T19:34:11Z rocx: ...couldn't you do that with a shebang? 2016-10-06T19:34:23Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:34:27Z rocx: warweasle: doesn't (save-lisp-and-die) make, like, a 50M executable? 2016-10-06T19:34:36Z warweasle: rocx: You can if you use --script instead of --load. 2016-10-06T19:35:27Z warweasle: rocx: Yes. But you have the entire lisp language built in. Also, most languages (C#, Java, etc) create huge executables now. 2016-10-06T19:36:12Z rocx: maybe i'm just used to C's small executable sizes. 2016-10-06T19:36:16Z raydeejay: yes 2016-10-06T19:36:17Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-06T19:36:18Z raydeejay: xD 2016-10-06T19:36:31Z warweasle: rocx: There are also professional lisp implementations which create executables like C does. It prunes everything you don't use. 2016-10-06T19:36:37Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T19:36:47Z rocx: great. now i wish emacs would do the same. 2016-10-06T19:36:47Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:37:23Z warweasle: rocx: Then you might like ECL, embeddable common lisp. YOu can call it from C, have it call C, create libraries and executibles with it... 2016-10-06T19:37:29Z dlowe: rocx: you should try statically linking a modest C program and see how big it really is 2016-10-06T19:37:34Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:38:25Z rocx: then again, most of the stuff i saw in C were terminal applications. 2016-10-06T19:39:37Z Quadresce quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T19:40:26Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:40:47Z warweasle: rocx: Lisp does take the kitchen sink approach. But many developers run it with swank (slime's repl backend) running so they can connect and troubleshoot later. 2016-10-06T19:44:31Z rocx: wonder why scheme didn't take off as the standard lisp if it probably would have lead to a more lightweight implementation. 2016-10-06T19:44:42Z dlowe: it didn't. 2016-10-06T19:44:49Z flip214: rocx: exactly because of that, probably. 2016-10-06T19:45:03Z flip214: Perl6 is specified as "easy for the programmer, not the implementor" 2016-10-06T19:45:14Z flip214: there are trade-offs involved, of course 2016-10-06T19:45:16Z warweasle: rocx: The only things I don't like about scheme is no simple (defmacro and no CLOS. 2016-10-06T19:46:02Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:46:06Z warweasle: rocx: But I'm comfortable with common lisp now and it's good enough. 2016-10-06T19:46:16Z dwchandler: scheme was kept simple precisely because it wasn't aimed at production use 2016-10-06T19:46:18Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T19:46:29Z rocx: ah. 2016-10-06T19:46:44Z dwchandler: that's less true today with racket and stuff, but that's where the simplicity came from 2016-10-06T19:47:11Z dwchandler: academic investigations into computer science topics -- simple language for research 2016-10-06T19:48:09Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-06T19:50:46Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:50:54Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:52:46Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:53:07Z beaky: i guess scheme's killer app was sicp 2016-10-06T19:53:20Z beaky: yet not even mit nowadays uses scheme? 2016-10-06T19:53:39Z rocx: the idea or programming changed. it wasn't about making things anymore. 2016-10-06T19:53:46Z rocx: it was about gluing things other people made. 2016-10-06T19:55:24Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T19:55:59Z raydeejay adds "mainstream" somewhere on that sentence 2016-10-06T19:56:12Z beaky: ye i guess sussman (or was it abelson) did mention that 2016-10-06T19:56:53Z beaky: people no longer need to build from first principles; just sling together libs and frameworks and get something that happens to work? 2016-10-06T19:56:57Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T19:57:14Z rocx: implementing RFCs, that's kind of understandable. 2016-10-06T19:57:35Z dwchandler: people still need to make things, but the percentage is shrinking 2016-10-06T19:58:02Z dwchandler: the absolute number of people needing to make things is probably growing 2016-10-06T19:58:02Z rpg: dwchandler: Until you find out that someone pulled "string left trim," and the internet is broken! ;-) 2016-10-06T19:58:59Z rpg: TBH, I think that their transition was premature. I agree that a lot of software building now involves assembling pre-existing components, but it's not at all clear to me we have a principled theory of how that happens 2016-10-06T19:59:02Z beaky: if only netscape went with a common lisp implementation for the web 2016-10-06T19:59:03Z beaky: instead of javascript 2016-10-06T19:59:05Z dwchandler: Hmm. I work with "the internet" and that didn't bother me at all. It gave me some amusement, though. 2016-10-06T19:59:09Z rpg: ... to replace our theory of how to build things. 2016-10-06T19:59:36Z rocx: beaky: of course, then there's the issue of a web browser being the grounds of executing arbitrary code without a user's permission. 2016-10-06T19:59:44Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-06T20:00:20Z beaky: ye i guess common lisp is impossible to sandbox 2016-10-06T20:00:25Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:00:48Z beaky: compared to something like c++-based webbrowsers or javascript, which is easy to sandbox and secure 2016-10-06T20:00:58Z raydeejay: yes 2016-10-06T20:01:00Z dlowe: that's empiracally false 2016-10-06T20:01:03Z raydeejay: that's why they don't have bugs 2016-10-06T20:01:04Z raydeejay: xD 2016-10-06T20:01:08Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:01:16Z dlowe: *empirically 2016-10-06T20:02:12Z edgar-rft: empiratically 2016-10-06T20:02:51Z cpc26_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T20:05:07Z jasom: beaky: I'm not sure if there was an existing open implementation of common lisp that ran on all the processors that netscape ran on at the time 2016-10-06T20:05:41Z jasom: oh, I'm wrong clisp was released in 1987 2016-10-06T20:05:49Z jasom had no idea it was that old 2016-10-06T20:06:01Z nullwork is now known as nullniverse 2016-10-06T20:06:28Z jasom: the famous exchange between Haible and Stallman was in 1992 2016-10-06T20:07:31Z jasom: but of course clisp was gpl after that point; that might have been an issue of contention 2016-10-06T20:07:44Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:08:04Z beaky: wow there was a GNU common lisp back then? 2016-10-06T20:08:46Z rocx: why did they even base guix on guile scheme instead of emacs lisp? 2016-10-06T20:09:01Z akkad: is there a url for that back and forth? 2016-10-06T20:09:09Z Bike: i don't think it was GNU. clisp did not become GNU for normal reasons 2016-10-06T20:09:10Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T20:09:28Z Xach_: akkad: http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/clisp/clisp/doc/Why-CLISP-is-under-GPL 2016-10-06T20:11:42Z jasom: beaky the gpl licensed clisp and gnu common lisp are two different things 2016-10-06T20:11:57Z akkad: hmm.. seems the "can't link to gpl without also being gpl" is not viewed that way anymore? 2016-10-06T20:11:58Z beaky: oh 2016-10-06T20:12:09Z dwrngr: afaik that's the distinction with LGPL 2016-10-06T20:12:11Z madbub quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T20:12:24Z phoe: rocx: because elisp is a language for writing Emacs; it would be pretty hard to respecialize it. 2016-10-06T20:12:41Z jasom: and the initial release of GNU Guile was around the same time that clisp was released under the gpl 2016-10-06T20:12:43Z phoe: plus, elisp is much like Common Lisp, and rms favors Scheme over CL. 2016-10-06T20:12:52Z rocx: aaaah. 2016-10-06T20:13:38Z jasom: IIRC elisp wasn't common lisp due to common lisp having some newfangled ideas like "lexical binding" that rms wasn't sure would pan out. 2016-10-06T20:13:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:13:58Z rocx: elisp was more like maclisp but that's being pedantic on my part. 2016-10-06T20:15:32Z rocx quit (Quit: ah bugger classes to go to an blah blah blah) 2016-10-06T20:17:01Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:17:32Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-06T20:18:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T20:18:51Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:20:37Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T20:21:59Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2016-10-06T20:22:02Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T20:22:06Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-06T20:23:00Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:24:17Z shrdlu68: I'm trying to send AT commands to a modem, but it's not responding to my attempts. 2016-10-06T20:24:53Z shrdlu68: I access the device via (open "/dev/ttyUSB0" :direction :output :element-type 'character) 2016-10-06T20:25:27Z jurov quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-06T20:25:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T20:25:28Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:25:37Z shrdlu68: I've tried :element-type 'base-char, but that makes no difference. 2016-10-06T20:26:03Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-06T20:26:19Z raydeejay: are you sending a newline? flushing the output? 2016-10-06T20:26:35Z jurov_ is now known as jurov 2016-10-06T20:27:33Z shrdlu68: raydeejay: Yeah. (format *device* "AT+CGMM~C" #\return) 2016-10-06T20:28:02Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:28:12Z shrdlu68: echo -en 'AT+CGMM\r' > /dev/ttyUSB0 works. 2016-10-06T20:28:39Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-06T20:28:49Z Bike: how about (finish-output *device*)? 2016-10-06T20:28:56Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T20:29:09Z shrdlu68: Let me try that. 2016-10-06T20:30:18Z shrdlu68: But then I have to disconnect this. 2016-10-06T20:31:29Z shrdlu68: Also, when a program like wvdial is using the modem, attempts to read or write to the device result in "Device or resource busy". 2016-10-06T20:31:35Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-06T20:32:24Z shrdlu68: When I open the device for IO in lisp (:direction :io), the device can still be written to or read by others. 2016-10-06T20:32:48Z shrdlu68: What's the difference? 2016-10-06T20:34:32Z jasom: ioctl TIOCEXCL probably 2016-10-06T20:36:19Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T20:36:36Z jasom: on sbcl you can use sb-unix:unix-ioctl to send that (I forget how to get the FD for an open file stream on sbcl, but it's possible) 2016-10-06T20:37:03Z jasom: sb-sys:fd-stream-fd 2016-10-06T20:38:21Z jasom: (sb-sys:fd-stream-fd sb-sys:*stdin*) ;=> 0 2016-10-06T20:39:13Z shrdlu68: Cool. 2016-10-06T20:39:52Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:43:27Z Quadresce quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-06T20:45:21Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-06T20:46:14Z mk2 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-10-06T20:46:38Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:47:07Z johs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T20:47:57Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:48:37Z beaky: hello 2016-10-06T20:48:44Z beaky: how do i add slots to an object instance 2016-10-06T20:48:57Z Mandus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T20:49:19Z phoe: Don't you rather want to add slots to a whole class? 2016-10-06T20:49:32Z phoe: And therefore all its alive instances as well? 2016-10-06T20:49:35Z apathor joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:49:55Z ck_ joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:49:57Z forgot joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:50:05Z beaky: nope just an instance 2016-10-06T20:51:07Z phoe: Why? 2016-10-06T20:51:07Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:51:19Z raydeejay: (setf (property-value obj 'property-name) value) 2016-10-06T20:51:25Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T20:51:25Z raydeejay: if you're using sheeple, of course 2016-10-06T20:51:48Z phoe: raydeejay: I guess he's using vanilla CLOS. 2016-10-06T20:51:58Z beaky: yup im using good old clos 2016-10-06T20:52:23Z raydeejay: phoe: I kinda figured that ;) 2016-10-06T20:52:29Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:52:40Z beaky: this sheeple thing sounds like what i need tho 2016-10-06T20:52:40Z Bike: you can't "add a slot to an instance" like that. regular clos objects are not as freewheeling as you're maybe used to from a prototype based system. 2016-10-06T20:52:43Z raydeejay: well, good old clos is good old class based 2016-10-06T20:52:44Z jasom: I don't think there is a way to add a slot to an instance of a standard object 2016-10-06T20:52:49Z beaky: aww 2016-10-06T20:52:54Z shrdlu68: Bike: finish-output doesn't help either. 2016-10-06T20:52:57Z jasom: you can change the class of an object, or use a hash-table 2016-10-06T20:53:00Z Bike: you could have a slot that's a hash table or something. 2016-10-06T20:53:03Z raydeejay: sheeple brings prototype based goodness :) 2016-10-06T20:53:22Z jasom: shrdlu68: I think you need a \r\n (echo adds a \n implicitly) 2016-10-06T20:53:30Z beaky: yes i like poop style programming 2016-10-06T20:53:45Z raydeejay: https://github.com/zkat/sheeple (on QL) 2016-10-06T20:54:02Z shrdlu68: jasom: And I'm telling it not to with -n: echo -en 'AT+CGMM\r' > /dev/ttyUSB0 2016-10-06T20:54:06Z beaky: quicklisp is incredible 2016-10-06T20:54:09Z jasom: oh, I missed that shrdlu68 2016-10-06T20:54:12Z zkat: I'm amazed people still use this. 2016-10-06T20:54:22Z raydeejay cheers zkat 2016-10-06T20:54:25Z zkat: but hi, me and adlai wrote that :) 2016-10-06T20:54:27Z raydeejay cheers at zkat 2016-10-06T20:54:46Z Xach_: beaky: what prompts the desire to add a slot? 2016-10-06T20:54:53Z Oddity joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:54:53Z Oddity quit (Changing host) 2016-10-06T20:54:53Z Oddity joined #lisp 2016-10-06T20:55:45Z beaky: nothing i just assumed lisp obects would be like js objects where you can add things whenever you feel like :D 2016-10-06T20:55:56Z shrdlu68: :D 2016-10-06T20:56:12Z raydeejay: supper \o/ 2016-10-06T20:56:19Z White_Flame: the equivalent of js objects are CL hashtables 2016-10-06T20:56:43Z White_Flame: JS is just optimized syntactically and at runtime for dealing with such mappings 2016-10-06T20:56:52Z beaky: ah 2016-10-06T20:56:55Z shrdlu68: plists too? sorta? 2016-10-06T20:56:59Z jasom: and alists 2016-10-06T20:57:04Z Bike: that's a prototype-based object system. clos is class based. 2016-10-06T20:57:06Z Xach_: beaky: You can introduce new protocols that specialize on objects that don't necessarily "know" about them. 2016-10-06T20:57:14Z Bike: i mean, by default. 2016-10-06T20:57:53Z White_Flame: beaky: however, if an object is an instance of a class, you can at runtime add new slots to the class, and update all live instances of that class to the new version 2016-10-06T20:58:03Z beaky: ah yes 2016-10-06T20:58:08Z White_Flame: which is a pretty heavyweight operation 2016-10-06T20:58:14Z phoe: but basically - if you want JS-like objects, you can use alists, plists or (preferably) hashtables. 2016-10-06T20:58:18Z White_Flame: generally for doing in-situ development 2016-10-06T20:59:26Z White_Flame: alists and plists are typically slower (when there's more than 5 or 10 keys), but they do have the advantages of literal syntax and being able to hold older versions of values stacked up 2016-10-06T20:59:28Z shrdlu68: what about the symbol-value business? Aren't symbols setf'able? 2016-10-06T21:00:02Z jasom: my preferred json <-> lisp mapping is: object <-> hashtable ; array <-> vector ; number <-> integer-or-float ; true <-> t ; false <-> nil ; null <-> :null 2016-10-06T21:00:04Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-06T21:00:04Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T21:00:29Z jasom: oh and string <-> string 2016-10-06T21:00:30Z White_Flame: shrdlu68: are you talking about the plist behind (get ) ? 2016-10-06T21:01:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:01:02Z shrdlu68: White_Flame: No, something quite different, although I'm not sure I understood/understand it. 2016-10-06T21:01:04Z cmatei joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:01:07Z beaky: i like how even poop-style programming is readily accessible in lisp i just (ql:quickload :sheeple) 2016-10-06T21:01:36Z jasom: shrdlu68: symbol-value returns the value-cell, which is what is bound by dynamic bindings and the same as setf of a special variable 2016-10-06T21:02:28Z jasom doesn't know how symbol-value interacts with threading on implementations where dynamic-bindings are thread-local 2016-10-06T21:02:33Z White_Flame: shrdlu68: symbol-value is useful when you're holding a symbol in a variable 2016-10-06T21:02:52Z Xach_: quicklisp is so great! i can't wait to support it financially when the fundraiser finally happens! yeah! what that person said! 2016-10-06T21:02:56Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:02:57Z White_Flame: like (let ((sym 'x)) (symbol-value sym)) will return the same thing as evaluating X 2016-10-06T21:03:08Z beaky: (whereas in any other programming language i would just give up on the notion and trudge on without them) 2016-10-06T21:03:14Z White_Flame: (in a context where X is not lexically bound etc etc) 2016-10-06T21:03:54Z beaky: indeed xach quicklisp single-handedly changed the way i approach package management 2016-10-06T21:04:28Z jasom: White_Flame: I'm pretty sure that's only if X is a dynamic variable 2016-10-06T21:04:31Z shrdlu68: Pretty cool, it's here in some "Lisp machine manual" http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/mit/cadr/chinual_5thEd_Jan83/chinualJan83_06_Symbols.pdf 2016-10-06T21:04:38Z beaky: from a pain that i have to contend with to something enjoyable 2016-10-06T21:05:18Z Xach_: beaky: always glad to hear it 2016-10-06T21:05:46Z White_Flame: jasom: if it's unbound, it should be similar, too :) 2016-10-06T21:06:02Z jasom: White_Flame: that is (setf (symbol-value 'x) 3) x ; not well defined 2016-10-06T21:06:39Z jasom: actually reading the spec, I think that should signal an error of type unbound-variable, but it doesn't on sbcl. 2016-10-06T21:06:53Z jasom: probably for backwards compatibility 2016-10-06T21:07:18Z shrdlu68: It complains about x being unbound. I thought there was a way to store an object in a symbol without i being bound... 2016-10-06T21:07:27Z shrdlu68 must have been dreaming about it. 2016-10-06T21:07:51Z jasom: shrdlu68: (setf (symbol-value 'x) 3) is fine 2016-10-06T21:07:59Z jasom: shrdlu68: but x is still unbound 2016-10-06T21:08:20Z nyarmith joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:08:30Z White_Flame: in many implementations, you can just (setf x 3) without declaring it first, and it will transparently do a defvar for you, but also whine 2016-10-06T21:08:52Z White_Flame: but yeah, (setf (symbol-value 'x) 3) will not declare anything 2016-10-06T21:08:59Z White_Flame: but will set the value there 2016-10-06T21:09:03Z jasom: also, defvar and defparameter do not establish a binding, but do set the value 2016-10-06T21:09:11Z shrdlu68: Probably also "Report the incident" like sudo. 2016-10-06T21:09:18Z jasom: there is no dynamic binding, but it is globally proclaimed special 2016-10-06T21:09:38Z White_Flame: huh, sbcl is happy with setf'ing the symbol value, and X returns the value fine 2016-10-06T21:09:46Z White_Flame: I guess that's because it stores its unbound flag right in the value slot 2016-10-06T21:09:54Z jasom: White_Flame: if you compile it complains 2016-10-06T21:10:15Z jasom: also it says X names an undefined variable: if you describe 'x 2016-10-06T21:10:30Z zooey quit (Changing host) 2016-10-06T21:10:30Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:10:30Z zooey quit (Changing host) 2016-10-06T21:10:30Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:10:34Z White_Flame: "X anmes an undefined variable: Value: 3" 2016-10-06T21:10:36Z White_Flame: names 2016-10-06T21:11:27Z shrdlu68: This Lisp machine manual is pretty cool. 2016-10-06T21:12:28Z White_Flame: Lisp machines are pretty cool 2016-10-06T21:13:42Z shrdlu68: Wait does it still work like this? A symbol has a value cell, a function cell, and a property list? 2016-10-06T21:14:07Z phoe: yes, why wouldn't it work like this? 2016-10-06T21:14:55Z shrdlu68: "Every symbol has an associated property list...initially empty" 2016-10-06T21:15:00Z White_Flame: and even more fields, like the package, the string name, etc 2016-10-06T21:15:16Z White_Flame: it's a rich object instance 2016-10-06T21:15:50Z jasom: shrdlu68: yup GET will get the propert list 2016-10-06T21:16:07Z jasom: property-lists are no longer considered good style though these days 2016-10-06T21:16:29Z shrdlu68: I like them for simplicity. 2016-10-06T21:16:47Z jasom: sorry symbol-plist will get the property list 2016-10-06T21:16:52Z jasom: get does a plist lookup on the plist 2016-10-06T21:17:31Z jasom: (get x y) == (getf (symbol-plist x) y) 2016-10-06T21:17:54Z shrdlu68: `assoc` gives me a cons while `getf` will give me exactly what I want, in situations where I'm looking for something like an associative array. 2016-10-06T21:18:30Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:19:14Z shrdlu68: For alists and plists respectively, that is. 2016-10-06T21:19:28Z White_Flame: by returning a cons, you can distinguish "key not found" from "key is bound to NIL" 2016-10-06T21:20:21Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:20:23Z White_Flame: plus, if you want to read and then destructively change the value, having the cons cell at hand lets you do that without going back and scanning the list again 2016-10-06T21:21:22Z shrdlu68: True. 2016-10-06T21:24:00Z shrdlu68: So I still can't figure out how (format *device* "AT+CGMM~C" #\return) is different from echo -en 'AT+CGMM\r' > /dev/ttyUSB0 2016-10-06T21:24:57Z shrdlu68: (stream-external-format *device*) assures me that it's ascii, so that can't be it. 2016-10-06T21:25:55Z shrdlu68: I've tried to loop through and write-char the characters but that still doesn't work. 2016-10-06T21:26:10Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-06T21:27:30Z jurov: shrdlu68: buffering may be the difference? 2016-10-06T21:28:01Z shrdlu68: jurov: I've tried finish-output and force-output to no avail. 2016-10-06T21:28:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-06T21:28:57Z jludwig is now known as jludwig-cyberlar 2016-10-06T21:29:01Z andywantstoknowl joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:29:17Z jludwig-cyberlar is now known as cyberlard 2016-10-06T21:29:44Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-06T21:31:25Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:32:40Z andywantstoknowl: hi lispers - I'm stuck. I'm trying to write a function that filters a set of variables to those that are non nil. f(A B C D) => '(A D) if B,C were nil. This is easy for me if I know the variables/arguments are A B C D, but if I don't know their names I need to solve the general case and I here I am failing 2016-10-06T21:33:40Z Bike: ok, so, it's a lisp function, "f(A B C D)" isn't valid syntax. do you mean something like (f '(a b c d))? 2016-10-06T21:34:20Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2016-10-06T21:34:30Z andywantstoknowl: sorry I was trying to make it readable sudo. so (f A B C D) => '(A D) 2016-10-06T21:35:02Z Bike: sudo...? 2016-10-06T21:35:13Z White_Flame: so you want the names of the variables returned, not their values? 2016-10-06T21:35:19Z andywantstoknowl: yes 2016-10-06T21:35:28Z Bike: alright, well, if it's lisp then f won't know about a, b, c, d, it will just see their values, so i don't know how it could possibly be returning their names. 2016-10-06T21:35:33Z andywantstoknowl: symbol names returned conditionally on their values 2016-10-06T21:35:39Z White_Flame: (f A B C D) => '(1 3), if they're bound to 1 NIL NIL 3 respectively, is easy 2016-10-06T21:36:20Z White_Flame: in that syntax, you need to use a macro to get the variable names, as you're not passing symbols into the function 2016-10-06T21:36:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T21:37:06Z White_Flame: (f 'a 'b 'c 'd) or (f '(a b c d)) would be workable without a macro 2016-10-06T21:37:27Z andywantstoknowl: yes sorry, I was using a function for when I knew the names (manually pushing symbols onto a list), but now for the general case I am trying to use a macro 2016-10-06T21:38:06Z Bike: well that's a good deal more complicated. 2016-10-06T21:38:24Z Bike: think about what you want the macro to expand into. 2016-10-06T21:39:33Z White_Flame: given (defmacro f (&rest symbols) ...) you could inject a quoted list of names, as well as unquoted use of those names, and scan over them 2016-10-06T21:40:28Z fouric quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-06T21:41:13Z fouric joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:41:13Z fouric quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-06T21:41:58Z andywantstoknowl: I was thinking of mapcar-ing a function that returns the symbol name or nil accross the list of symbols depending on their value, and then doing a remove-if nil on the resulting list. 2016-10-06T21:41:58Z ssice quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-06T21:42:13Z shrdlu68: Hmmm, there's a bunch of python machine learning libraries. 2016-10-06T21:42:35Z shrdlu68: Wouldn't it be interesting if you could auto-translate it to lisp? 2016-10-06T21:42:50Z andywantstoknowl: but passing (lamda (x) (if ,x x nil)) to mapcar fails 2016-10-06T21:43:11Z Bike: andywantstoknowl: remove-if-not takes :key, you don't need to do two steps. 2016-10-06T21:43:21Z nyarmith quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-06T21:43:24Z Bike: andywantstoknowl: well, of course it does, comma outside a backquote. 2016-10-06T21:43:25Z White_Flame: shrdlu68: those libraries probably all call out to C libs, which you can do from CL as well 2016-10-06T21:43:45Z shrdlu68: If one could auto-translate language X to lisp... 2016-10-06T21:43:49Z White_Flame: andywantstoknowl: a comma is just a list-building structure. That won't evaluate 2016-10-06T21:43:53Z andywantstoknowl: sorry, that would be inside the macro where `(mapcar... 2016-10-06T21:44:21Z White_Flame: how exactly does it fail? 2016-10-06T21:44:27Z luis` is now known as luis 2016-10-06T21:44:32Z Bike: you seem confused about phases of things. If you have (lambda (x) ...), within the body x is going to be an actual value. Unquoting it does not make sense. 2016-10-06T21:44:44Z White_Flame: (hint: the answer will become clear by understanding the error messages) 2016-10-06T21:45:03Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-06T21:45:11Z shrdlu68: White_Flame: I don't think so, perhaps the bignum libs, but scikit-learn for instance. 2016-10-06T21:47:59Z akkad: loop for i in list do (somefunction i) collect results; how do I capture collect the output from the do block? 2016-10-06T21:48:14Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-06T21:48:50Z shrdlu68: akkad: loop for i in list collect (somefunction i) 2016-10-06T21:51:10Z ssice joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:51:21Z fouric joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:51:22Z vsync quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-06T21:52:00Z nyarmith joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:52:22Z vsync joined #lisp 2016-10-06T21:56:35Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-06T21:56:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-06T22:00:11Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping 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reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-10-07T01:31:59Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-07T01:36:02Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-10-07T01:36:43Z bluezone: What is the symbol '#' in common lisp? 2016-10-07T01:37:30Z bluezone: I see it used next to an operator being passed to a function (sort '(1,2,3) #'>) 2016-10-07T01:39:03Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T01:39:20Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-07T01:41:25Z waynecolvin: bluezone : i think #' is like (quote ...) but uses function instead of variable namespaces 2016-10-07T01:42:26Z bluezone: so it works the same like the the quote in '(1,2,3) but it's for functions waynecolvin ? 2016-10-07T01:43:06Z bluezone: I am having difficulty googling this because it's not taking it as a keyword haha 2016-10-07T01:43:51Z waynecolvin: i don't really know lisp lol. i read somewhere the # character is available to trigger read macros but understand that even less 2016-10-07T01:44:16Z bluezone: i think you are right 2016-10-07T01:44:28Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-07T01:45:17Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-07T01:46:06Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-07T01:50:45Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T01:51:01Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-07T01:56:28Z Bike: bluezone: #'foo is short for (function foo) 2016-10-07T01:56:30Z Bike: clhs #' 2016-10-07T01:56:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 2016-10-07T01:56:38Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T01:56:53Z attila_lendvai: # is a marker for the reader to stop and consult its user configurable table for possible plugins that can read custom stuff after the marker 2016-10-07T02:02:56Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T02:03:14Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-07T02:03:59Z jokleinn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-07T02:07:37Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-10-07T02:07:43Z jokleinn quit 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(www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-07T04:37:10Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-07T04:37:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-07T04:37:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-07T04:41:02Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-07T04:41:31Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T04:43:44Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-07T04:45:09Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T04:45:58Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T04:49:40Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-07T04:49:43Z lexicall quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T04:50:11Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-07T04:50:54Z mk2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T04:53:00Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:01:22Z bocaneri quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-07T05:01:31Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-07T05:01:58Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:11:07Z waynecolvin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T05:11:57Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:12:28Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:15:02Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T05:15:54Z brandonz joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:16:37Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:17:12Z jasom: good morning beach 2016-10-07T05:17:42Z fouric quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-07T05:18:00Z fouric joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:18:15Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-07T05:21:16Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-07T05:22:47Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:24:41Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:25:00Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T05:26:28Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:27:43Z loke: Hello easye 2016-10-07T05:29:04Z beach: What's new and exciting? 2016-10-07T05:29:16Z JohnMcClain quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-07T05:29:18Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T05:30:49Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:33:38Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-07T05:34:43Z easye: Morning all. A day filled with debugging CL code for me. Now that's execiting! 2016-10-07T05:35:16Z beach: A day yet to happen, or a day passed? 2016-10-07T05:35:27Z easye: Today, hopefully. 2016-10-07T05:35:44Z easye: Actually not so much debugging, as creating new code THEN debugging it. 2016-10-07T05:35:56Z easye: I need to write a lot of tests. 2016-10-07T05:36:04Z beach: I was just going to say. 2016-10-07T05:36:12Z beach: Having tests is liberating. 2016-10-07T05:36:23Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T05:36:43Z easye: Yes, it is. But finding the right tests to be properly liberated, that can be tough. 2016-10-07T05:37:11Z beach: My favorite is random testing. 2016-10-07T05:37:28Z beach: Comparing an implementation of some protocol to a simple tests implementation. 2016-10-07T05:37:47Z easye: ooh. Sounds interesting. Do you have a reference? 2016-10-07T05:37:54Z beach: No, I invented it. 2016-10-07T05:37:57Z easye: Ah. 2016-10-07T05:38:02Z beach: But you can see several examples of it. 2016-10-07T05:38:14Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-07T05:38:15Z beach: ... in my Cluffer repository, for instance. 2016-10-07T05:38:20Z easye: Alright, examples would be cool. Something in your Cleavir perhaps? 2016-10-07T05:38:20Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T05:38:36Z beach: Cluffer, Flexichain, Clump. 2016-10-07T05:38:43Z beach: That should keep you busy for a while. 2016-10-07T05:38:46Z easye: Heh. 2016-10-07T05:38:58Z easye: This is on github? What's your use there? 2016-10-07T05:38:58Z beach: I am about to attack the tests for the cache invalidation of the incremental parser for Common Lisp in Second Climacs, using that technique. 2016-10-07T05:39:04Z easye: s/use/user/ 2016-10-07T05:39:09Z beach: robert-strandh 2016-10-07T05:39:14Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:39:16Z easye: Doh. Thanks 2016-10-07T05:40:22Z loke: Hello easye, I have built a dev-env setup thingy that works on Ubuntu 2016-10-07T05:40:42Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/setup-dev.sh 2016-10-07T05:41:14Z easye: loke: thanks! I will push into my ABCL stack. Probably won't make it to it until sometime this weekend. 2016-10-07T05:41:18Z beach: Time to get to work. 2016-10-07T05:41:20Z beach left #lisp 2016-10-07T05:41:42Z easye: Alright beach, have a good day. Interesting looking at your tests. 2016-10-07T05:41:46Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-07T05:45:25Z jasom: easye, beach that sounds like fuzz testing 2016-10-07T05:47:23Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-07T05:48:16Z jackdaniel: hey o/ 2016-10-07T05:49:05Z jasom: minion: memo for beach: you talk about random testing, are you aware of AFL (automatically generates inputs for novel paths through the code) or csmitl (randomly generates valid C programs and compiles and runs on different C implementations) 2016-10-07T05:49:06Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2016-10-07T05:49:30Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:49:41Z vento joined #lisp 2016-10-07T05:58:32Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-07T06:00:04Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:02:28Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:03:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:04:25Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:09:29Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:14:09Z johs joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:14:10Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-10-07T06:14:18Z zaquest joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:16:56Z easye: Does ASDF have a concept of a "nickname" for a DEFSYSTEM form? I want to migrate an involved "asd" file to use the "ASDF sub-system" convention, i.e. if a given DEFSYSTEM is named foo/something, an (ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM :foo/something) will look for the definition in "foo.asd", but I don't want to debug changing all my internal ASDF system references at the moment. 2016-10-07T06:18:13Z easye: Looking through the ASDF grammar seems to indicate this isn't easy unless I do some manual EXPORT/IMPORT forms. 2016-10-07T06:18:39Z easye: Which I am not sure would really meet ASDF expectations. 2016-10-07T06:19:05Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:20:11Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T06:21:31Z easye: What I refer to as "ASDF sub-system" seems to be called by ASDF "6.5 The package-inferred-system extension" 2016-10-07T06:22:10Z easye: No, scratch that last comment. 2016-10-07T06:22:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T06:23:18Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:24:38Z lexicall: somebody bought the site http://lisp-lang.org and made it beautiful. 2016-10-07T06:28:21Z jackdaniel: lexicall: it's eudoxia 2016-10-07T06:29:07Z lexicall: it's cool and modern. 2016-10-07T06:29:12Z easye: lexicall: the createor of presented at ELS 2016 Krakow in a lightning talk. I think the site is beuatiful as well, but there was a bit of discussion about the content. 2016-10-07T06:30:01Z jackdaniel: easye: is ABCL 1.4.0 a thing already? :) 2016-10-07T06:30:25Z lexicall: easye: sure and I think he's still working on it, particularly with the content. 2016-10-07T06:30:30Z easye: Of course, the site has been revised somewhat in the last six months. 2016-10-07T06:31:49Z easye: jackdaniel: Nope. Maybe today. Dealing with Maven artifact publishing. 2016-10-07T06:32:07Z lexicall: what should I do when I find the libraries i need to use is implemented for other languages and there's no counterpart in CL? 2016-10-07T06:32:12Z easye: "dealing with Maven artifact publishing unsuccessfully" 2016-10-07T06:33:04Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:33:09Z jackdaniel: lexicall: preferably create library in CL :-) if the library is available with FFI you may create bindings for it 2016-10-07T06:33:13Z easye: But contains the current code of the RC. 2016-10-07T06:34:03Z loke: lexicall: Is there a specific library you need? 2016-10-07T06:34:15Z lexicall: jackdaniel: i heard that I have to consider too much problems creating bindings, for example, wether to use the Lisp GC, and the memory management. 2016-10-07T06:34:49Z loke: lexicall: That depends on how well integrated you want it to be. 2016-10-07T06:34:56Z lexicall: loke: some computer vision libraries like opencv and some NLP libraries 2016-10-07T06:35:06Z loke: lexicall: I've made sveral CFFI-based libraries, and it's not hard. 2016-10-07T06:35:28Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:35:35Z jackdaniel: lexicall: regarding nlp, there is cl-nlp - it may be worth to take a look 2016-10-07T06:36:02Z jackdaniel: regarding opencv, I think we don't have alternative atm 2016-10-07T06:36:25Z lexicall: i once tried using python bridge and use the python libraries. I used burgled-batteries but i don't know why it was running so slow. 2016-10-07T06:37:19Z lexicall: is Clojure an alternative when encountering problems of libraries? 2016-10-07T06:37:50Z jackdaniel: I have never heard that we have CL <-> Clojure bridge 2016-10-07T06:38:03Z lexicall: jackdaniel: well I mean just switch to clojure. 2016-10-07T06:38:10Z loke: lexicall: If you want to do Java stuff from CL, then ABCL is a good choice. 2016-10-07T06:38:11Z jackdaniel: if Clojure has a library (or bindings), you may switch to this language if you want of course 2016-10-07T06:39:11Z lexicall: loke: oh right. is abcl fluent in calling java libraries? 2016-10-07T06:39:20Z loke: lexicall: Very much so. 2016-10-07T06:39:48Z lexicall: sounds great. i'll put abcl on my todo list. 2016-10-07T06:40:28Z jackdaniel: and new release is on its way! :-) 2016-10-07T06:41:15Z lexicall: I wonder how commercial company deal with the library problem, when they choose Lisp as their main development language. 2016-10-07T06:41:44Z easye: Interop with Java is the Bear's raison d'etre 2016-10-07T06:42:05Z easye: lexicall: What library problem, exactly? 2016-10-07T06:42:06Z jackdaniel: I think this very much depends on what libraries are needed 2016-10-07T06:42:27Z jackdaniel: many are available already (ecosystem is pretty large atm) 2016-10-07T06:43:13Z lexicall: easye: well i cannot enumerate, probably some scientific libraries 2016-10-07T06:43:41Z jackdaniel: lexicall: they either write such libraries (if they need them and they are not available) or create ffi bindings 2016-10-07T06:44:00Z lexicall: my professor recommend the "caffe" library for deep learning. 2016-10-07T06:44:19Z lexicall: jackdaniel: so that's totally from the ground up. 2016-10-07T06:44:24Z easye: ABCL has a very good story on interop with both Java libraries and anything you can swig with CFFI. 2016-10-07T06:44:24Z easye: Both work pretty flawlessly out of the box. 2016-10-07T06:44:28Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T06:44:48Z lexicall: easye: that's excellent! 2016-10-07T06:45:51Z Firedancer quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-07T06:48:51Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:51:42Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T06:51:43Z easye: jackdaniel: A ABCL<--> clojure bridge might be quite possible. Depends exactly on how Clojure implements its threading. 2016-10-07T06:52:19Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:53:05Z jackdaniel: sounds interesting 2016-10-07T06:53:18Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-07T06:54:59Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T06:58:01Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-07T06:58:35Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-07T07:03:38Z Firedancer joined #lisp 2016-10-07T07:06:32Z Mandus joined #lisp 2016-10-07T07:10:12Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-07T07:28:33Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-07T07:36:13Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-07T07:36:26Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-07T07:42:15Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T07:43:27Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T07:50:22Z myrkraverk: Does loop have any built-in magic to go from 0 to n repeatedly, while the control variable goes on? (either due to an explicit :while or the main control is :from a :to b) 2016-10-07T07:51:01Z Guest26 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T07:51:02Z myrkraverk: as in, if I'm looping i :from 0 :to 30, can I loop j :from 1 :to 3 repeatedly? 2016-10-07T07:51:19Z myrkraverk: Without rolling my own repeating code? 2016-10-07T07:52:27Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-07T07:53:37Z freedom01 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T07:55:12Z Guest26 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-07T07:56:11Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T07:56:43Z vento quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-07T08:00:13Z Bike: (loop for i from 0 to 30 for j = (1+ (mod i 3)) ...) would do it 2016-10-07T08:02:44Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T08:03:27Z myrkraverk: Yeah. 2016-10-07T08:03:36Z diogo quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-10-07T08:03:39Z Olical joined #lisp 2016-10-07T08:04:23Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T08:08:15Z lieven: for j in '#1=(1 2 3 . #1#) would work too 2016-10-07T08:10:15Z loke: (subseq '#1=(1 2 3 . #1#) 0 30) 2016-10-07T08:10:20Z loke: beautiful :-) 2016-10-07T08:10:39Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-07T08:10:59Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T08:11:21Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-07T08:12:04Z jackdaniel: I like it too 2016-10-07T08:12:55Z loke: In APL it's ever neater. The code is this: 30⍴⍳3 2016-10-07T08:13:34Z jackdaniel: I prefer read-write source code more than write-only :P 2016-10-07T08:13:57Z loke: True, but that particular code should be easy enough. :-) 2016-10-07T08:14:12Z lieven: yeah back in the days a friend of mine wrote a Runge-Kutta solver for a complex physics problem as an APL one liner. modifying it afterwards was kind of involved. 2016-10-07T08:14:55Z loke: lieven: You don't _have_ to write it like that. You can also break the code up in a few more lines to make it readable :-) 2016-10-07T08:16:41Z lieven: not that kind of guy. one of his other feats was a theorem prover in sendmail rules. you encoded the axioms and the desired theorem in the incoming address and if it resolved the outgoing address was an encoding of the proof 2016-10-07T08:17:21Z przl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T08:17:24Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T08:17:30Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-07T08:18:49Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-07T08:19:18Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-07T08:19:44Z flip214: lieven: loke: how about using (alexandria:circular-list) instead? might be more readable 2016-10-07T08:20:18Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-07T08:20:46Z loke: lieven: Sounds like an awesome person. 2016-10-07T08:21:26Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T08:22:47Z lieven: flip214: ok I guess if you're already using alexandria. #n= is builtin reader syntax but might be a bit obscure. 2016-10-07T08:26:53Z myrkraverk: Since my n is not hard coded, I can't use '#1=( 1 2 3 . #1# ) 2016-10-07T08:28:11Z myrkraverk: In other news, be careful about typing #1=( 1 2 3 . #1# ) in the repl. 2016-10-07T08:28:20Z myrkraverk: that is, without the quote. 2016-10-07T08:30:28Z lieven: myrkraverk: sure you can. not tested but something like `#1=(,@(loop for i from 1 to n collect i) . #1#) 2016-10-07T08:30:41Z lexicall quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T08:30:43Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-10-07T08:31:11Z myrkraverk: With that, I'm way better off using (mod). 2016-10-07T08:31:29Z myrkraverk: But thanks, it's always nice to know there's an alternative. 2016-10-07T08:32:29Z lieven: it's a classic space versus computation trade off, but yes, mod is the more reasonable choice 2016-10-07T08:38:55Z bluezone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-07T08:41:35Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T08:41:45Z flip214: I wanted to say "beware of the integer overflow" - but then remembered #lisp and bigints ;) 2016-10-07T08:42:13Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T08:46:33Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T08:47:43Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T08:54:48Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-07T08:54:51Z lugus35[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T08:54:52Z M-moredhel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T08:59:36Z solene: how can I check that something is a list ? 2016-10-07T09:01:43Z jackdaniel: solene: (listp bah) 2016-10-07T09:01:54Z jackdaniel: p stands for predicate 2016-10-07T09:02:22Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T09:02:59Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:03:28Z solene: so easy 2016-10-07T09:04:31Z przl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T09:04:39Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:08:06Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T09:08:19Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:08:32Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:08:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:10:22Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:10:22Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:13:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T09:15:05Z zkat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T09:15:40Z zkat joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:15:59Z flamebeard_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:17:27Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:18:51Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T09:20:17Z flamebeard_ is now known as flamebeard 2016-10-07T09:22:06Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T09:23:46Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:27:30Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T09:28:03Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:28:18Z deank quit 2016-10-07T09:30:56Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:31:16Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:34:29Z gbyers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T09:34:49Z gbyers joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:39:39Z lugus35[m] quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T09:44:44Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:46:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:51:26Z myrkraverk: Is there a hamming distance function in CL? 2016-10-07T09:51:40Z myrkraverk: I just rolled my own, but I'd like to know if it was in wain. 2016-10-07T09:51:43Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T09:51:49Z myrkraverk: For the record, it's rather easy in CL. 2016-10-07T09:53:47Z flip214: myrkraverk: google find eg. http://digital.cs.usu.edu/~vkulyukin/vkweb/software/ghd/ghd.html https://gist.github.com/regularcoder/8369386 2016-10-07T09:53:50Z flip214: and quite some more 2016-10-07T09:53:55Z flip214: seems to be a fun exercise 2016-10-07T09:54:05Z flip214: I'll try it too, and make N+1! ;/ 2016-10-07T09:54:21Z drdo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-07T09:54:38Z loke: flip214: Wow. That's some ugly-arse Lisp code right there. 2016-10-07T09:55:27Z myrkraverk: http://paste.lisp.org/+710D 2016-10-07T09:55:29Z myrkraverk: That's mine. 2016-10-07T09:55:59Z myrkraverk: The idea was to return nil if the buffers have different lengths, but I have not tested that yet. 2016-10-07T09:57:30Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T09:58:38Z lieven: you can just loop across both vectors 2016-10-07T09:58:55Z lieven: loop will stop when the shortest one runs out 2016-10-07T09:59:41Z myrkraverk: lieven: according to my source, hamming distance is undefined when the buffers aren't the same length, hence my desire to return nil in that case. 2016-10-07T09:59:52Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-07T10:00:00Z flip214: I thought that hamming allows insertion and deletes, too? 2016-10-07T10:00:07Z flip214: or is that an extended hamming? 2016-10-07T10:01:07Z myrkraverk: Now I don't remember what my source is. 2016-10-07T10:01:19Z myrkraverk: Anyway, I'm preparing this: http://cryptopals.com/sets/1/challenges/6 2016-10-07T10:01:28Z myrkraverk: And my test vectors do return 37. 2016-10-07T10:02:13Z myrkraverk: flip214: I'm not an expert on hamming dastances, but I do remember reading /somewhere/ that hamming distance isn't defined for unequal lengths. 2016-10-07T10:02:31Z myrkraverk: *except for 2016-10-07T10:02:41Z myrkraverk: **err, never mind that 2016-10-07T10:02:47Z myrkraverk: I should get some more sleep. 2016-10-07T10:03:25Z myrkraverk: I'm quite happy that CL has logcount -- it makes the loop really easy to do. 2016-10-07T10:03:54Z _death: (logcount (logxor a b)) 2016-10-07T10:04:43Z _death: ah, you already pasted something like that 2016-10-07T10:05:01Z myrkraverk: Yeah. 2016-10-07T10:05:15Z myrkraverk: I do need a loop for the vectors. 2016-10-07T10:05:28Z myrkraverk: since logxor doesn't work on vectors directly. 2016-10-07T10:05:35Z Jameser_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-07T10:05:59Z myrkraverk: And converting strings of arbitrary length to some fixnums seems -- not worth it. 2016-10-07T10:06:11Z deank joined #lisp 2016-10-07T10:06:25Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-07T10:07:49Z lieven: not possible even. *fix*nums have fixed length 2016-10-07T10:10:46Z myrkraverk: an octet sequence of length N can be turned into fixnum of bitlength 8N, right? 2016-10-07T10:11:23Z myrkraverk: I'm not in a mood to experiment with that though. 2016-10-07T10:12:16Z _death: the capacity of a fixnum is implementation-dependent. perhaps you mean integer or unsigned-byte 2016-10-07T10:12:19Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T10:12:53Z myrkraverk: I see. 2016-10-07T10:16:23Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T10:16:49Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T10:17:08Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-07T10:18:22Z titankiller quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T10:19:21Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-07T10:20:34Z freedom01 joined #lisp 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Anywhere.) 2016-10-07T12:04:42Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T12:04:49Z Zotan joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:07:28Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-07T12:09:29Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:18:30Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T12:21:44Z myrkraverk: This is interesting. 2016-10-07T12:21:46Z myrkraverk: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/69189/build-a-compiler-bomb/69193#69193 2016-10-07T12:21:53Z myrkraverk: Though, I have to say, it doesn't seem like a challenge in CL. 2016-10-07T12:22:23Z myrkraverk: Though, I don't think a CL bomb can be made shorter than the C example. 2016-10-07T12:23:26Z flip214: myrkraverk: #1=(#1#) ? 2016-10-07T12:23:51Z myrkraverk: flip214: Yeah, I was thinking about that, but it'll likely kill the compiler process before the binary gets written to disk. 2016-10-07T12:24:11Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:25:29Z flip214: well, if it's just as binary size, (defparameter G (alex:make-list 1000000000)) (save-lisp-and-die ...) 2016-10-07T12:25:59Z myrkraverk: Exactly, it's not really a challenge in lisp. 2016-10-07T12:26:18Z myrkraverk: The only challenge is making it shorter than the C code given; and I can't do that. 2016-10-07T12:26:33Z Munksgaard: How can you even assign anything to the main function in C? That's insane 2016-10-07T12:27:57Z Olical joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:28:34Z myrkraverk: flip214: though the challenge specifically states you can't use non-standard libraries, but even then, I just can't look at it as a challenge in lisp to make a large binary. 2016-10-07T12:30:18Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:30:38Z myrkraverk: Since CL really has a turin complete compile time preprocessor: CL. 2016-10-07T12:33:22Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:34:20Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:34:26Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T12:34:52Z H4ns joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:36:18Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-487-cbf5c38 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-07T12:36:39Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:36:55Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:37:12Z myrkraverk: Btw, does CL have an equivalent of (eval-when-compile ...) form? 2016-10-07T12:37:32Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:38:08Z AntiSpamMeta quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T12:38:08Z nightfly quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T12:38:14Z vento joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:38:25Z nightfly joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:38:43Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:38:46Z H4ns: cl has eval-when, but i don't know if that is equivalent to what you're looking or. 2016-10-07T12:38:48Z H4ns: for 2016-10-07T12:38:54Z jackdaniel: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) …) 2016-10-07T12:39:17Z freedom01 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T12:40:06Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T12:40:35Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T12:42:33Z myrkraverk: Hmm, that doesn't work for a self-compiling (save-lisp-and-die) sbcl --script. I have to use :execute for it to actually display a message at run time. 2016-10-07T12:43:01Z myrkraverk: Though of course, I can simply drop the surrounding (eval-when ...) and it does what I mean. 2016-10-07T12:43:19Z H4ns: if you eval-when something at compile time, why do you expect it to print something at run time? 2016-10-07T12:44:16Z myrkraverk: H4ns: I mean, I expect it to actually print something at *some point* -- but it doesn't seem to do that for sbcl --script 2016-10-07T12:44:52Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-07T12:45:27Z jackdaniel: you may put there :load-toplevel instead of compile-toplevel if you work with scripts 2016-10-07T12:45:35Z myrkraverk: Ah. 2016-10-07T12:45:39Z H4ns: or just not use eval-when at all?! 2016-10-07T12:45:44Z jackdaniel: ↑ 2016-10-07T12:45:46Z Guest26 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:46:15Z myrkraverk: Yes, exactly. 2016-10-07T12:47:02Z myrkraverk: (format t "Hello, compiler.~%") (defun main()) (save-lisp-and-die #p"binary" :toplevel #'main :executable t) 2016-10-07T12:47:38Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T12:47:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:50:30Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:51:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:51:51Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-07T12:53:44Z myrkraverk: And, I don't have the disk space to try to make a compiler bomb which maxes out the OS X file size: 8 EB. 2016-10-07T12:54:13Z myrkraverk: Though that might be an interesting challenge. 2016-10-07T12:56:06Z gacepa quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-07T12:56:18Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T12:57:30Z Olical quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T12:59:17Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T13:00:24Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:06:53Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T13:07:37Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:07:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T13:08:09Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:08:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:09:18Z lucasb_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:09:49Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-07T13:10:15Z Olical joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:10:48Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T13:10:48Z sigjuice quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T13:11:04Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:12:08Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:12:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T13:16:52Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:17:02Z dlowe: I'm really annoyed that someone else hasn't ported drakma to iolib because that means I'm gonna have to do it. 2016-10-07T13:17:34Z Kruppe quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T13:18:49Z dlowe: hm. I guess I could alternately use threading and a pipe which iolib waits on. 2016-10-07T13:20:56Z macin joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:21:09Z macin left #lisp 2016-10-07T13:22:21Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-07T13:25:55Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-10-07T13:29:50Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:32:57Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:33:25Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:34:28Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:35:04Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:35:33Z Guest26 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-07T13:35:54Z Guest26 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:36:00Z vapid is now known as andor9001 2016-10-07T13:39:05Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:40:44Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:41:46Z Intensity quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T13:41:47Z lieven quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T13:41:56Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:42:38Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-07T13:42:45Z lieven joined #lisp 2016-10-07T13:45:25Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-07T13:46:06Z Guest26 quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. 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One of those 73-81% solutions. 2016-10-07T14:02:26Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T14:03:49Z Xach_ used sb-alien to get at epoll to get strict time limits on http and dns requests from his web program 2016-10-07T14:05:22Z madbub quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T14:05:35Z beaky: drakma sounds nice 2016-10-07T14:06:20Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:07:03Z madbub joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:08:17Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T14:08:44Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-07T14:09:34Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:09:40Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:13:52Z fe[nl]ix: deadlines tied to a request context is the only good idea in Go, IMO 2016-10-07T14:13:57Z fe[nl]ix: works really well 2016-10-07T14:14:31Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T14:15:01Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:21:58Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:22:17Z whiteline quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:18Z clog quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:19Z angular_mike_ quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:19Z j0ni quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:19Z Colleen quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:20Z billstclair quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:20Z isoraqathedh quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:20Z jself quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:21Z kilimanjaro quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:21Z ritschmaster quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:22Z XachX_ quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:22Z lpaste quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:23Z banjiewen quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:23Z Merv quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:23Z asedeno quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:24Z benny quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:25Z nydel quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:25Z makufiru quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:25Z Neet quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:27Z pkkm quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:28Z zwwwdr quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:28Z |3b| quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:28Z vert2_ quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T14:22:29Z nydel joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:22:31Z clog joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:22:32Z vert2 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:22:32Z ritschmaster joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:22:34Z j0ni joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:22:35Z jself joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:22:39Z Colleen joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:22:41Z zwwwdr joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:22:52Z benny joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:23:16Z |3b|` joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:23:33Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:23:52Z dyelar quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-07T14:24:16Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:25:02Z lpaste joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:25:17Z billstclair joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:25:22Z Merv joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:25:35Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:25:53Z asedeno joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:25:55Z XachX_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:26:04Z makufiru joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:26:12Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:26:34Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T14:26:41Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:26:52Z Neet joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:26:57Z dwrngr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T14:27:12Z banjiewen joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:27:49Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:28:34Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:29:48Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-07T14:30:43Z pkkm joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:31:14Z beaky: i love how all of lisps loops are built ontop of GO 2016-10-07T14:31:27Z beaky: GOTO is the ultimate loop i guess 2016-10-07T14:31:27Z angular_mike_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:33:47Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T14:33:49Z Guest26 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:34:39Z cromachina_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:36:03Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T14:36:42Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:37:24Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:37:42Z cromachina quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T14:37:53Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T14:38:00Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:38:08Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:38:52Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:39:35Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T14:42:03Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-07T14:43:22Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 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It is on top of libuv instead of iolib https://github.com/orthecreedence/carrier 2016-10-07T15:08:31Z dlowe: PuercoPop: that's fascinating, but totally not useful to me 2016-10-07T15:14:38Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:15:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:16:25Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-07T15:16:35Z andor9001 is now known as vapid 2016-10-07T15:16:49Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:17:14Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T15:19:15Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T15:19:23Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:20:27Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T15:20:28Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:24:49Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T15:30:26Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T15:31:21Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:31:25Z Denommus quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-07T15:31:28Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:31:40Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:36:48Z phoe: beaky: there are only two things you can do in Lisp to make something happen in circles 2016-10-07T15:36:57Z phoe: either recurse 2016-10-07T15:36:59Z phoe: or GO 2016-10-07T15:37:11Z phoe: everything else is just an illusion caused by macros 2016-10-07T15:37:18Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-07T15:37:33Z easye: phoe: deep. 2016-10-07T15:41:34Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-07T15:41:36Z pierpa` joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:43:07Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:43:11Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T15:43:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T15:44:58Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-07T15:48:44Z easye: Wild ass question: anyone have any experience hooking into a Go executable with CFFI? 2016-10-07T15:49:32Z loke`: easye: Does go have the same calling conventions as C? 2016-10-07T15:49:37Z loke`: I thought it did? 2016-10-07T15:49:38Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-07T15:49:47Z fe[nl]ix: "a Go executable" ?? 2016-10-07T15:50:07Z loke`: That said... I'm wondering if go's GC may conflict with SBCL's GC. 2016-10-07T15:50:17Z fe[nl]ix: Go executables are statically linked, so I wouldn't expect to even be able to dlopen() one 2016-10-07T15:50:21Z loke`: After all, that's why you can't link Java into SBCL. 2016-10-07T15:50:25Z fe[nl]ix: much less obtain something useful 2016-10-07T15:50:38Z loke`: fenlix: I'm sure it must be possible to compile go into a dynamic library 2016-10-07T15:51:38Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2016-10-07T15:52:16Z pierpa`` joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:52:47Z tigg quit 2016-10-07T15:53:31Z beaky: i like how in all its years, common lisp doesnt have serious flaws or warts that warrant another standard release 2016-10-07T15:53:40Z raydeejay: hah 2016-10-07T15:53:42Z beaky: whereas java needed generics and lambdas 2016-10-07T15:54:10Z easye: Ah, but I can start a Go executable under GDB... 2016-10-07T15:54:20Z easye: Which I can script dlopen() as a pre-routine. 2016-10-07T15:54:30Z pierpa` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T15:54:34Z pierpa``` joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:54:40Z jasom: phoe: not quite true re go/recursion; it would be permissible for an implementation to have non-standard special forms for looping 2016-10-07T15:55:26Z phoe: jasom: sigh 2016-10-07T15:55:39Z phoe: beaky: there are only two things you can do in *standard* Lisp to make something happen in circles 2016-10-07T15:55:45Z phoe: jasom: better now? 2016-10-07T15:56:08Z jasom: I guess my pooint is just that (loop (foo)) could be expanded to something other than go or recursion 2016-10-07T15:56:59Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-07T15:57:10Z jasom: go does have -buildmode=c-shared 2016-10-07T15:57:12Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:57:18Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:57:18Z pierpa`` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T15:57:26Z easye: jasom: Oh cool. That sounds promising. 2016-10-07T15:57:31Z phoe: jasom: I see. 2016-10-07T15:57:45Z easye: I know if I can dlopen() in GDB, I can certainly get ECL et. al. up. 2016-10-07T15:58:00Z jasom: easye: *maybe* 2016-10-07T15:58:21Z jasom: easye: the runtimes may conflict 2016-10-07T15:58:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:58:45Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:58:48Z easye: From what I see of goroutines, they are pretty restartable. 2016-10-07T15:58:51Z jasom: as someone else said, sbcl and the jvm both expect to be able to handle SIGSEGV 2016-10-07T15:59:02Z easye: Now, trampling on the heap is gonna be a problem. 2016-10-07T15:59:17Z jasom knows nothing about go's garbage collector 2016-10-07T15:59:43Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-07T15:59:52Z pierpa```: since there are multiple implementations of go, it doesn't even make sense 2016-10-07T16:00:10Z phoe: Is there some sort of diff that understands S-expressions? 2016-10-07T16:00:39Z jasom: pierpa```: well one implementation of go that can create dlls that don't conflict with the runtime of one implementation of CL might be sufficient 2016-10-07T16:00:55Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-07T16:01:07Z pierpa```: phoe: there are some, but I don't remember the names 2016-10-07T16:01:40Z jasom: phoe: I usually just replace )[^\n] with )\n and run through a pretty printer before using vanilla diff 2016-10-07T16:02:22Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-07T16:04:12Z phoe: I don't mean it 2016-10-07T16:05:51Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327916 2016-10-07T16:06:48Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:07:46Z phoe: this is a normal diff 2016-10-07T16:07:50Z AndChat-614900 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:10:34Z phoe: I want something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/327916#1 2016-10-07T16:10:35Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-07T16:10:47Z raydeejay: say http://foldr.org/mw/log/programming/lisp/diff-sexp ? 2016-10-07T16:11:08Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T16:11:29Z phoe: raydeejay: ooh 2016-10-07T16:11:31Z phoe: yes please 2016-10-07T16:11:41Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:11:50Z phoe: now all I need is to hook it to a pretty-printer and use it instead of vanilla diff for lisp files 2016-10-07T16:12:18Z jasom: well you need some way of *reading* it too 2016-10-07T16:12:36Z phoe: jasom: I can read the example I posted above 2016-10-07T16:13:10Z jasom: lisp files are not s-expressions, so it's not useful for diffing lisp files IMO. 2016-10-07T16:14:49Z hebroon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T16:14:58Z beaky: btw, what makes s-expressions fundamentally so good compared to m-expressions 2016-10-07T16:15:15Z beaky: (which are doomed to be reinvented by other programming languages that try to implement macro systems) 2016-10-07T16:15:28Z phoe: jasom: they're lists of S-expressions. 2016-10-07T16:15:36Z jasom: phoe: nope 2016-10-07T16:15:52Z phoe: jasom: oh right. 2016-10-07T16:15:53Z jasom: #+(or)foo ;bar 2016-10-07T16:15:55Z phoe: reader macros. 2016-10-07T16:16:19Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:16:24Z dwchandler: google reader macros 2016-10-07T16:16:28Z PosterdatiMobile quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-07T16:16:31Z phoe: I know reader macros. 2016-10-07T16:16:40Z beaky: reader macros are a brilliant idea 2016-10-07T16:16:42Z vento quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-07T16:16:59Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-07T16:17:31Z beaky: clojure's and naggum's usage of them have me convinced (tho rich hickey refuses to allow users to add them in his lang :D) 2016-10-07T16:17:51Z hydan joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:18:34Z hebroon joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:20:04Z PuercoPop: apropos TIL about xml-mixed-mode which is used for the sbcl web page ej https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/sbcl-page/ci/master/tree/index-page.lisp#l53 2016-10-07T16:20:13Z beaky: also for JSON literals: https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402 2016-10-07T16:22:08Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:23:28Z albus joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:24:00Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-07T16:24:59Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T16:25:10Z warweasle quit (Quit: food.) 2016-10-07T16:25:45Z albus: sleep.quit. 2016-10-07T16:25:52Z albus quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-07T16:26:36Z atgreen quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-07T16:28:57Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T16:29:21Z jasom: phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327917 2016-10-07T16:29:55Z phoe: jasom: what's "lispindent"? 2016-10-07T16:30:59Z phoe: https://github.com/odyssomay/LispIndent ? 2016-10-07T16:34:14Z PosterdatiMobile joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:34:16Z _PosterdatiMobil joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:34:25Z _PosterdatiMobil quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-07T16:35:42Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:36:10Z jasom: phoe: hmm it used to be the first hit on google for lispindent 2016-10-07T16:36:36Z jasom: https://github.com/ds26gte/scmindent 2016-10-07T16:37:16Z attila_lendvai: google customizes the results for you, unless you use some anonymizer 2016-10-07T16:37:42Z jasom: That's not the same version I have since it wasn't in github when I got it, but it's based off the same code from Dorai Sitaram 2016-10-07T16:38:03Z Guest26 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:38:19Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:41:00Z _death: it's also possible to use emacs to indent lisp code from the command line 2016-10-07T16:41:56Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T16:42:53Z jasom: _death: it's also possible to use emacs to do lots of things from the command line, a fact I (ab)use in my geany lisp plugin. 2016-10-07T16:43:38Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:43:53Z _death: yep.. last time I did something like that was to export org files to html/pdf/.. 2016-10-07T16:44:16Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:44:41Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T16:44:52Z jasom: These are all emacs under the hood: http://i.imgur.com/yI8OjdV.png http://i.imgur.com/VKOHGJm.png http://i.imgur.com/o5LMFUt.png 2016-10-07T16:45:18Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2016-10-07T16:45:55Z _death: cute 2016-10-07T16:46:28Z sjl uses a hacked version of lispindent, which mostly works well 2016-10-07T16:46:37Z jasom: I could ditch emacs if swank and slime were actually two separate pieces of software, because then we could have a CL swank client. 2016-10-07T16:46:53Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:47:16Z jasom: but swank and slime are actuall two halves of the same software that just so happen to communicate over sockets/pipes. There's no well defined protocol there. 2016-10-07T16:48:20Z _death: well, there are toy swanks.. for example in slime-contrib 2016-10-07T16:48:54Z ecraven: Jasom: there is a protocol, s-expressions. It just isn't very stable or well-documented. There are working swanks for a few Schemes, for example 2016-10-07T16:49:24Z jasom: unstable implies not well defined IMO 2016-10-07T16:49:32Z ecraven: _death: i use the mit scheme swank daily, works rather well for me 2016-10-07T16:50:01Z ecraven: I didn't say well defined, but it's definitely implementable in other lisps 2016-10-07T16:50:05Z jasom: If I want to ever update swank, I need to also update the client side. 2016-10-07T16:50:17Z jasom: ecraven: I don't care about reimplementing *swank* it's slime I want to reimplement. 2016-10-07T16:50:33Z Guest26 quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-07T16:50:48Z jasom: About 8 years ago I wrote a partial swank client for vim, and it broke in under 6 months. 2016-10-07T16:52:11Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T16:52:17Z jasom: wheras the elisp function slime-compile-file presents the same interface to emacs today as it did then 2016-10-07T16:52:42Z jasom: thus if I want to use swank, it is best for me to do so solely via slime. 2016-10-07T16:53:03Z fe[nl]ix: attila_lendvai: there's no personal customization unless you're logged in 2016-10-07T16:53:14Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: I'm not sure that's true anymore 2016-10-07T16:55:28Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:58:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-07T16:59:11Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T16:59:33Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T17:00:51Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T17:06:00Z Olical quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T17:06:15Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-07T17:07:19Z easye: jasom: I think you have more of a fighting chance to code against a stable SLIME these days. Hell, they even make releases with numbers now. 2016-10-07T17:07:24Z easye: Not true six years ago. 2016-10-07T17:10:45Z okflo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T17:11:35Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-07T17:18:14Z drot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T17:18:31Z drot joined #lisp 2016-10-07T17:19:30Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T17:20:02Z jerme joined #lisp 2016-10-07T17:21:21Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T17:22:18Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-07T17:23:46Z ritschmaster left #lisp 2016-10-07T17:24:03Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-07T17:27:38Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-07T17:27:42Z impaktor quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-07T17:28:22Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-07T17:29:11Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-07T17:30:49Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T17:36:45Z jerme left #lisp 2016-10-07T17:38:58Z Guest26 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T17:40:00Z flip214: jasom: care to join in? https://github.com/adolenc/cl-neovim/issues/1 2016-10-07T17:40:48Z jasom: flip214: I gave up on vim and use emacs with evil-mode now 2016-10-07T17:41:06Z jasom did consider making a neovim package for emacs though; there's already a message pack library in elisp 2016-10-07T17:41:08Z akkad: vim just lacks a good emacs keybinding emulator 2016-10-07T17:41:22Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-07T17:42:10Z jasom: the amount of knowledge embedded in the slime/swank code base is fairly daunting. 2016-10-07T17:43:16Z raydeejay: akkad: and the rest of the operating system 2016-10-07T17:44:55Z jasom: In other news 1500 ql systems have been converted to working nix packages by ql2nix. 2016-10-07T17:45:17Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T17:45:24Z beaky: wow nice 2016-10-07T17:45:29Z akkad: the war for the 'simple editor without the kitchen sink' has been lost. vim/neovim have soo nany scripts 2016-10-07T17:45:34Z beaky: hmm is nix like quicklisp 2016-10-07T17:45:45Z jasom: beaky: not even remotely 2016-10-07T17:45:50Z beaky: :< 2016-10-07T17:46:12Z jasom: nix is a package manager; it can be used standalone or as part of the linux distribution nixos. 2016-10-07T17:46:29Z jasom: http://nixos.org/ 2016-10-07T17:47:21Z jasom: I *may* get some pushback incorporating these into nixpkgs though; I will at least replace the ancient hand-converted libraries that already exist. 2016-10-07T17:48:11Z jasom can just imagine the comments on the PR: Add 2000 new libraries for common-lisp 2016-10-07T17:49:14Z jasom: considering there are only 12000 packages total in nixpkgs right now that would be a significant change. 2016-10-07T17:53:24Z jasom: I also need to clean things up a bit; let users configure which lisp(s) to setup, perhaps add a FASL cache for quicker loading &c. 2016-10-07T17:53:40Z Xach_: ql2nix -> qnx 2016-10-07T17:53:44Z jasom: haha 2016-10-07T17:53:50Z raydeejay: lawl 2016-10-07T17:54:05Z raydeejay: and it fits in a floppy as well 2016-10-07T17:55:07Z jasom: anyone know if compile-bundle-op preserves the ability to M-. to the original source files? 2016-10-07T17:55:42Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T17:55:57Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-07T17:56:53Z dwchandler: jasom: do a pkgsrc -> nix conversion and sneak the cl stuff in with that... 2016-10-07T17:57:28Z dwchandler: so so easy to say 2016-10-07T17:59:00Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:00:35Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:01:01Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:02:11Z jasom: also ql2nix currently relies on a prerelease uiop. epipping fixed uiop:run-program with :error-output t to do the Right Thing recently 2016-10-07T18:02:40Z akkad: is there a way with format ~{ ~A~^~} to print the given element twice? 2016-10-07T18:02:57Z jasom: previously it would sometimes output the stderror and sometimes not depending on the implementation version and which syntax you called run-program with 2016-10-07T18:03:00Z jasom: akkad: yes 2016-10-07T18:03:19Z jasom: akkad: ~:* backs up the position in the argument list 2016-10-07T18:03:27Z akkad: nice! 2016-10-07T18:03:30Z akkad: thanks man. 2016-10-07T18:03:38Z akkad: s/man/person 2016-10-07T18:03:39Z raydeejay: /o\ 2016-10-07T18:03:49Z jasom: clhs ~* 2016-10-07T18:03:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cga.htm 2016-10-07T18:07:11Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:07:34Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:11:00Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:12:06Z jasom: print a list forever: (format t "~{~A, ~#[~0@*~]~}" list) 2016-10-07T18:12:24Z akkad: wow 2016-10-07T18:13:14Z jasom: ~#[ selectes the Nth clause where N is the remaining number of arguments, ~0@* moves to the 0th argument for the iteration 2016-10-07T18:14:33Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T18:14:35Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:18:11Z AndChat-614900 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T18:19:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T18:22:46Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:26:57Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:29:11Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-07T18:29:21Z nyarmith joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:29:27Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-07T18:32:10Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:32:42Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2016-10-07T18:34:53Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T18:35:29Z jasom also wonders how the various bundle operations interact with the groveller 2016-10-07T18:35:45Z beaky: LOOP and FORMAT are nice 2016-10-07T18:36:43Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-10-07T18:39:30Z nyarmith quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-10-07T18:39:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T18:40:05Z Guest26 quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-07T21:51:37Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T21:51:51Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-10-07T21:52:16Z Neet quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T21:52:17Z asedeno quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T21:52:17Z zkat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-07T21:52:17Z velvetcore quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T21:52:19Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-07T21:52:32Z renard_ joined #lisp 2016-10-07T21:52:41Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-07T21:56:14Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-07T21:56:38Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-07T21:58:00Z JoshYoshi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-07T21:58:17Z asedeno joined #lisp 2016-10-07T21:59:12Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-10-07T21:59:20Z mrottenkolber: good evening 2016-10-07T21:59:33Z mrottenkolber: is quickdocs... alive? 2016-10-07T21:59:33Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-07T21:59:36Z Neet joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:00:18Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T22:00:19Z rgc joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:00:30Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:00:38Z mordocai: The site is up if that is what you mean 2016-10-07T22:02:05Z mrottenkolber: no I mean is development active? the github repository seems dormant since 2015 2016-10-07T22:03:06Z l1x joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:03:06Z mordocai: Probably not but I don't know if it necessarily needs any code changes. 2016-10-07T22:03:27Z mrottenkolber: I would maybe like to help fix some low hanging fruit, like working unicode handling and maybe help people who don’t use markdown. 2016-10-07T22:03:34Z Neet quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T22:03:34Z asedeno quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T22:03:34Z l1x quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T22:04:01Z rgc: hi all 2016-10-07T22:05:36Z rudolfochrist: hi 2016-10-07T22:06:07Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T22:08:46Z rgc quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-07T22:11:37Z asedeno joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:12:50Z Neet joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:13:44Z l1x joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:15:23Z mrottenkolber: does anyone remember the name/author of the CL project where they used a persistent versioned metaclass to store programs to enable version controlled in-image development? 2016-10-07T22:17:07Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:18:09Z mrottenkolber: like an ORM but starting at / specifically for the source 2016-10-07T22:19:18Z Fare: Is anyone interested in discussing design issues for ASDF? 2016-10-07T22:19:40Z rudolfochrist: mrottenkolber: cl-prevelance? 2016-10-07T22:19:51Z PuercoPop: no no, something joe? 2016-10-07T22:19:58Z PuercoPop: the funcall.blogspost guy I think 2016-10-07T22:21:01Z Merv joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:21:21Z PuercoPop: jrm-code-project 2016-10-07T22:22:27Z Fare: oh, is there a stable lisp-only atomic persistence library? I understand atomicity might require primitives not in CLHS, so portability to only the few major implementations (sbcl, ccl, and if possible allegro, lispworks, ecl, abcl, clisp -- would be good) 2016-10-07T22:22:35Z PuercoPop: mrottenkolber: You are looking for this right? https://github.com/defin/jrm-code-project/blob/0716e271f449b52bfabe4c2fefe8fc5e62902f42/ChangeSafe/conman/satellite-subsystem.lsp#L37 2016-10-07T22:23:13Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-07T22:23:16Z Fare: I'd like to fix the bug wherein asdf fails to properly handle incrementality for defsystem-depends-on 2016-10-07T22:25:06Z Fare: one problem is that then the plan isn't a list and/or there are many subplans, but I need to compute the graph in the shared session cache outside of a particular plan. 2016-10-07T22:26:25Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:26:51Z zkat joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:26:53Z PuercoPop: Fare: btw thanks for cl-launch, I've been using it to start up StumpWM w/o any issues 2016-10-07T22:27:34Z banjiewen joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:28:05Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:28:15Z Fare: PuercoPop, yay! 2016-10-07T22:28:52Z Fare: I'm growing tired of KDE and its instability. I should give another look at stumpwm. Or maybe xmonad. 2016-10-07T22:29:35Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-07T22:30:14Z PuercoPop: Fare: Well StumpWM still needs a lot of work. But I never got past the KDE4 downgrade 2016-10-07T22:31:08Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-07T22:31:10Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:31:12Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: Restart requested by ilbelkyr: brb) 2016-10-07T22:31:25Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:31:29Z PuercoPop: A pharmacy near my house still uses a KDE3 PoS program 2016-10-07T22:33:17Z akkad: Fare rucksack? 2016-10-07T22:34:15Z velvetcore joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:34:35Z pipping: Fare: hi! 2016-10-07T22:34:44Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T22:34:53Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:37:37Z Sigyn quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-07T22:38:38Z raydeejay: PuercoPop: what do you think of it, if you've seen enough (maybe you set it up yourself)? After doing some research for my last job, I concluded that I hate current PoS (and related) software :) in my opinion, most of them get most things wrong... I am a firm proponent of custom software for small businesses 2016-10-07T22:39:32Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-07T22:39:46Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:40:18Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:40:42Z deank joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:41:12Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-07T22:42:15Z bocaneri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-07T22:43:03Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:43:33Z mood_ is now known as mood 2016-10-07T22:43:35Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:44:05Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-07T22:44:05Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-07T22:45:04Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:46:08Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:46:48Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-07T22:48:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:53:32Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-07T22:55:54Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:57:40Z Fare: pipping, hi! 2016-10-07T22:58:02Z Fare: pipping, interested in discussing ASDF? (Not UIOP) 2016-10-07T22:59:06Z pipping: Fare: I'm afraid I won't be able to contribute anything useful; I have too little understanding of ASDF's inner workings 2016-10-07T22:59:24Z velvetcore quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-07T22:59:24Z banjiewen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-07T22:59:24Z Neet quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-07T22:59:35Z FareTower joined #lisp 2016-10-07T22:59:37Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-07T22:59:44Z FareTower: wonderful, I was disconnected. 2016-10-07T22:59:50Z zkat quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-07T22:59:50Z asedeno quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-07T22:59:57Z Merv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-07T22:59:57Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-07T23:00:42Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-07T23:01:11Z FareTower: Maybe having little understanding of the ASDF internals makes you a better resounding board! 2016-10-07T23:01:42Z pipping: FareTower: I'll happily /listen/ 2016-10-07T23:02:10Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T23:02:15Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:02:32Z FareTower: ASDF internals are nothing to be proud of -- ASDF1 was optimized for "smallest code that kind of work in the usual case", and ASDF3 was optimized for "smallest code that fixes ASDF1 in the general case while mostly maintaining backward compatibility" 2016-10-07T23:02:49Z FareTower: pipping: pleas interrupt at any time. 2016-10-07T23:02:53Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-07T23:03:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-07T23:03:36Z FareTower: Because of its optimization constraint, ASDF1 was using and abusing lists a lot, rather than defining nice data structures. 2016-10-07T23:05:34Z FareTower: ASDF3 uses somewhat more structured data, with a few more classes, and algorithms that are O(n) instead of O(n**4) or worse, but has shunned any definition of more advanced data structures. 2016-10-07T23:06:35Z FareTower: By contrast, POIU has a dequeue to represent queued compilation jobs, and a general graph representation for the action graph. 2016-10-07T23:06:49Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-07T23:07:51Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:08:21Z FareTower: I could import them into ASDF, but for instance the queue representation is <100 lines, but if I start documenting it up to UIOP standards, that will be >300lines 2016-10-07T23:09:41Z FareTower: The graph-based plan is another 200 lines, that up to ASDF standards would be > 400 lines. 2016-10-07T23:10:46Z FareTower: I suppose I could leave out the actual parallelization of plan execution, which is ~400 lines. 2016-10-07T23:10:50Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-07T23:11:19Z pipping: the three combined would be tantamount to merging poiu into asdf? 2016-10-07T23:11:47Z FareTower: Anyway, after growing UIOP by 300 lines and ASDF by 400 lines, I will probably need >100 lines to address the proper staging of defsystem dependencies. 2016-10-07T23:12:15Z FareTower: well, if I leave out the actual forking, it's only half of POIU 2016-10-07T23:12:25Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:12:45Z FareTower: though if I move in the graph representation, it's tempting to merge in the rest of POIU, too. 2016-10-07T23:13:00Z pipping: iirc asdf and uiop are currently around 5000 and 7000 lines, respectively, so e.g. an addition 300+400 lines in ASDF aren't all that much 2016-10-07T23:13:14Z pipping: isn't* 2016-10-07T23:13:25Z FareTower: what's ~1000 more lines when ASDF is now > 12000 lines 2016-10-07T23:13:33Z FareTower: ASDF1 was < 1000 lines 2016-10-07T23:13:36Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: Restart requested by ilbelkyr: bug fix) 2016-10-07T23:13:51Z FareTower: it was 14 years ago, so maybe we don't do too bad by Moore's law. 2016-10-07T23:14:12Z pipping: what purpose would the parallelization of plan execution in asdf serve, though? would it be put to use by anything other than poiu? 2016-10-07T23:14:16Z FareTower: OK, so let's admit I merge the two. 2016-10-07T23:14:19Z pjb quit (Quit: good night.) 2016-10-07T23:14:31Z FareTower: the point is not the parallelization (though it's a plus) 2016-10-07T23:14:59Z FareTower: the point is that the graph representation vs the sequential plan, makes it much nicer to handle the staging 2016-10-07T23:15:21Z FareTower: but I suppose I could leave the graph implicit in the session cache somehow. 2016-10-07T23:16:24Z FareTower: the problem is that to track defsystem-depends-on, you can to accept that ASDF isn't really plan-then-perform: it's staging plan(and-plan-and-perform-within-plan)-and-perform. 2016-10-07T23:16:58Z FareTower: so, plan can and does call operate. 2016-10-07T23:17:10Z pipping: I'm not sure I understand this part: First, asdf builds a graph of dependencies; in its entirety, not incrementally 2016-10-07T23:17:30Z FareTower: yes and no 2016-10-07T23:17:51Z raydeejay grabs popcorn 2016-10-07T23:18:04Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:18:15Z FareTower: the basic idea is that it builds the whole plan, but skips the parts that are "already done", then performs in sequence those that need to be done. 2016-10-07T23:18:57Z FareTower: except that it's more subtle than that, as the genius author of poiu discovered (antifuchs). 2016-10-07T23:19:02Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-07T23:19:44Z FareTower: because some actions need to be performed *in the current image*, i.e. load-op, whereas other don't (e.g. *compile-op*). 2016-10-07T23:21:12Z asedeno joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:21:19Z FareTower: asedeno, hi! 2016-10-07T23:21:23Z vapid: irc.tauri.hu /join #godx 2016-10-07T23:21:46Z FareTower: poiu *does* build the entire graph explicitly, unlike asdf. 2016-10-07T23:21:51Z pipping: do the objects that make up the plan already carry that information? whether it needs to run in the original interpreter? 2016-10-07T23:22:18Z FareTower: asdf walks the graph, but doesn't actually build a complete representation of it, instead accumulating a queue of actions to be done. 2016-10-07T23:22:43Z Neet joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:23:21Z pipping: do you have any data on what the largest projects are that put asdf to use? just to get an idea of how large N can be 2016-10-07T23:23:24Z FareTower: the way asdf decides whether an action is meant for the current image is surprisingly simple but effective (a criterion implicit in ASDF1 and also discovered by antifuchs in POIU): 2016-10-07T23:23:24Z l1x joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:23:29Z vapid: wrongchatlols 2016-10-07T23:24:09Z FareTower: if an action has a non empty list of file outputs, then it is supposed to be reproducible and not meant in a particular image, the outputs being its only purpose 2016-10-07T23:24:30Z FareTower: if on the other hand it has no file outputs, then it is necessary to be performed in the current image. 2016-10-07T23:25:22Z FareTower: pipping: Google doesn't use ASDF anymore. Back in the days of QRes, there were a few thousands of files in a few tens of systems. 2016-10-07T23:25:28Z pipping: I see. Sounds a bit fragile. But certainly better than nothing. 2016-10-07T23:26:18Z FareTower: the criterion is remarkably sound despite being non-obvious. It's one of the many "wonders" of ASDF. 2016-10-07T23:27:25Z FareTower: it was already implicit in ASDF1's remarkable (and yet completely broken) operation-done-p 2016-10-07T23:27:35Z Merv joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:28:51Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-07T23:29:08Z FareTower: When I first tried to flatten the ASDF dependencies, I hit some algorithm in ASDF1 being O(N**3), and the result was quite slow. 2016-10-07T23:29:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:29:28Z pipping: leaving the already-done parts aside... what kind of object is it that POIU creates? It's something that's meant to work for any number of parallel builders, and thus in particular, a single one, yes? Does going down the POIU route have disadvantages compared to the sequential plan building? Is it costly to store, costly to compute, or is the resulting plan somehow suboptimal? 2016-10-07T23:30:10Z pipping: 10000**3 is unpleasantly large :/ 2016-10-07T23:30:33Z rumbler31: Xach: see any reason why I shouldn't share a common quicklisp distribution between an osx host and a windows vm guest? 2016-10-07T23:30:42Z FareTower: the disadvantage of POIU is the slight increase in complexity of the code base. And the fact that it can only parallelize on Unix on SBCL, CCL (but only with the single-threaded-ccl patch), Allegro and CLISP. 2016-10-07T23:30:48Z FareTower: (so far) 2016-10-07T23:31:05Z FareTower: and only if you didn't start any thread yet (threads and forks don't play well). 2016-10-07T23:31:51Z FareTower: rumbler31: I'd download the whole thing and make it read-only. 2016-10-07T23:31:57Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-07T23:32:17Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:32:18Z pipping: right, but imagine one forced the number of builders to be just one for now. would the switch to the poiu data structures than bring more advantages or disadvantages? 2016-10-07T23:32:31Z pipping: then* 2016-10-07T23:32:56Z zkat joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:33:37Z rumbler31: FareTower: I might have mis-stated my question, but what do you mean "download the whole thing" 2016-10-07T23:33:45Z FareTower: pipping, so POIU creates this "parallel-plan" object that is basically (1) a general graph of actions, with arcs both ways, implemented using hash-tables, and (2) a queue of jobs to run in parallel. 2016-10-07T23:34:05Z banjiewen joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:34:19Z FareTower: rumbler31, see ql-test:install-all-quicklisp-provided-systems 2016-10-07T23:35:04Z FareTower: Basically something like (map () 'ql-dist:ensure-installed (mapcar #'ql-dist:name (ql-dist:provided-systems (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp"))))) 2016-10-07T23:35:10Z XachX_: rumbler31: pathnames maybe. 2016-10-07T23:35:12Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:36:11Z FareTower: XachX_, hi! Is Quicklisp going to drop ASDF 2.26 any time soon? 2016-10-07T23:36:51Z FareTower: anything older than 3.1.2 is not supported. 2016-10-07T23:36:53Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:37:14Z XachX_: That is a discussion for rpg. 2016-10-07T23:37:36Z rpg: ? 2016-10-07T23:38:24Z pipping: FareTower: that sounds like a simple enough, reasonable structure 2016-10-07T23:38:55Z FareTower: well, as long as you're happy with it, you're happy with it --- but hopefully any cl implementation used for development in the wild provides asdf 3. 2016-10-07T23:39:13Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:39:31Z FareTower: (though at least my favorite three-comma lisp programmer recently declared he was still using asdf 1 and other software from <= 2009) 2016-10-07T23:40:14Z FareTower: pipping: you should have seen the original poiu: like asdf1, a mix of genius and horrible 2016-10-07T23:40:20Z JohnMcClain joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:41:05Z FareTower: like, accumulating huge lists of transitive dependencies by lack of prepare-op. 2016-10-07T23:41:19Z FareTower: using append 2016-10-07T23:42:01Z fouric: ("three-comma lisp programmer" ~= "three-star c programmer"?) 2016-10-07T23:42:22Z FareTower: fouric, yes! http://www.cliki.net/Three%20Comma%20Programmer 2016-10-07T23:42:52Z fouric: "being called a three-star programmer is usually not a compliment"? 2016-10-07T23:43:17Z Quadresce quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-07T23:44:03Z FareTower: Not from the people who have to maintain the code. 2016-10-07T23:44:27Z velvetcore joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:44:35Z XachX_: That is bad ql-dist code. 2016-10-07T23:44:37Z fouric groks 2016-10-07T23:44:46Z fouric: (ty for explanation) 2016-10-07T23:44:52Z FareTower: XachX_, what is good ql-dist code for the same thing? 2016-10-07T23:46:37Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-07T23:47:01Z FareTower: pipping, merging poiu would make some code cleaner, but let's see if we can do without. 2016-10-07T23:48:17Z FareTower: pipping, the main problem we have is that asdf has nowhere in the graph to store dependencies of loading a .asd file, such as from defsystem-depends-on or manual load-system. 2016-10-07T23:48:41Z pipping: FareTower: well, it sounded like merging at least the first 2-3 parts would lead to less hacky code at the cost of an additional 1000 well documented LOC, which is good 2016-10-07T23:48:50Z FareTower: pipping: so, first thing, introduce a define-op for loading the system definitions. 2016-10-07T23:49:01Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:49:16Z FareTower: rpg: how do you feel about adding 1000 lines of documented data structures to asdf? 2016-10-07T23:49:48Z rpg: I guess I'd like to see them first. Is this POIU, the parallel build system? 2016-10-07T23:49:54Z pipping: I see; such a structure sounds like something one would want, yes. 2016-10-07T23:50:19Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:50:20Z rpg: I think that might be the first step for ASDF 4 2016-10-07T23:50:26Z FareTower: rpg: yes, though currently those lines are vastly underdocumented in POIU, and half of it 2016-10-07T23:50:47Z rpg: Also I'm scared about farming out compilations to other processes. 2016-10-07T23:50:51Z FareTower: rpg: can you merge launch-program this weekend and release 3.1.8 ? 2016-10-07T23:50:52Z vapid is now known as xenti3 2016-10-07T23:51:07Z FareTower: do you think the obsolete-function-warning branch is good to go (minus tests)? 2016-10-07T23:51:16Z rpg: I'm afraid I have to go off to dinner -- seems like I'm missing an interesting discussion. 2016-10-07T23:51:26Z FareTower: it's all logged! 2016-10-07T23:51:28Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:51:35Z FareTower: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/lisp-2016-10.txt 2016-10-07T23:51:39Z rpg: I'm working on the launch-program refactor right now. I just set the tests going before dinner... 2016-10-07T23:51:53Z FareTower: rpg: yay! 2016-10-07T23:51:59Z rpg: Catch you all later. 2016-10-07T23:52:15Z rpg: well, haven't started the bloody windows tests. But I'll get to it. 2016-10-07T23:52:30Z FareTower: the "only" thing after that I suppose is deciding whether o-f-w is good enough for 3.1.8 or whether it should wait for 3.1.9 2016-10-07T23:52:48Z FareTower: (assuming tests pass) 2016-10-07T23:53:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:53:17Z rpg: I'm already quite inclined to call this 3.2, since the API is changing. And it only costs me ten times as much to bump that number. 2016-10-07T23:54:33Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-07T23:55:01Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-07T23:55:37Z pipping: It's already 2am and I've attended a workshop over the last three days so I have trouble even keeping my eyes open now. 2016-10-07T23:55:47Z FareTower: if you call it 3.2, an alternative to o-f-w is just dropping the damn backward-foo files (or at least their content) 2016-10-07T23:55:54Z Orion3k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-07T23:56:02Z FareTower: pipping: good night! 2016-10-07T23:56:12Z rpg: pipping: Good night! Catch you later. 2016-10-07T23:56:18Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-10-07T23:56:22Z rpg has the windows tests running. 2016-10-07T23:56:25Z pipping: Thanks :) 2016-10-07T23:56:35Z rpg is going to be killed if he holds dinner up any longer.... 2016-10-07T23:56:45Z rpg: I'll ponder the version numbering.... TTYL 2016-10-07T23:58:34Z madbub quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T00:01:22Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-08T00:02:40Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T00:02:47Z FareTower: anyone else interested in an asdf braindump? 2016-10-08T00:03:50Z rudolfochrist: yes 2016-10-08T00:04:11Z beaky: i like brains 2016-10-08T00:04:47Z FareTower: thanks! 2016-10-08T00:05:11Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T00:06:06Z FareTower: well, so, every time we operate, we currently create a new plan, but not a new session cache. 2016-10-08T00:07:56Z FareTower: currently, the plan "represents" the entire graph and its traversal, and its "final" output is a list of actions (or, with poiu, the entire graph) 2016-10-08T00:08:00Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T00:08:13Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:08:53Z FareTower: but, when you have nested calls to operate, it appears that the graph belongs in the session state 2016-10-08T00:13:37Z clintm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-08T00:14:51Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T00:15:08Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-08T00:15:50Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T00:16:12Z FareTower: or at least shared between regular plans 2016-10-08T00:17:20Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:17:47Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:18:12Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T00:18:25Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:20:00Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-10-08T00:20:00Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:20:00Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2016-10-08T00:20:00Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:23:45Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:24:25Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T00:25:58Z unrahul joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:26:00Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:28:17Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-08T00:28:17Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T00:30:40Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T00:31:32Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T00:32:12Z tfb joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:34:18Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:35:14Z pidu joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:38:01Z hebroon quit 2016-10-08T00:38:14Z FareTower joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:43:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:45:42Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:45:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T00:46:07Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-08T00:49:12Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:51:55Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:52:19Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:53:59Z FareTower: one problem: what if some inner operate was incompatible flags with an outer operate, say with different force / force-not specifications? This can cause inconsistencies in the dependency graph, and everything going wrong. 2016-10-08T00:56:27Z FareTower: since you can't undo the graph computed so far with the outer flags, it makes sense that any incompatible inner flags should cause an error. 2016-10-08T00:57:24Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-08T00:57:48Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-08T01:04:14Z clog_ quit (Quit: ^C) 2016-10-08T01:04:33Z clog joined #lisp 2016-10-08T01:04:51Z tkd joined #lisp 2016-10-08T01:07:21Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T01:16:44Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T01:17:18Z FareTower: so, while you're building your plan, one .asd file needs code to be loaded (e.g. cffi) and calls operate. 2016-10-08T01:19:00Z FareTower: also some of the dependencies of the system being defsystem-depends-on'ed might themselves be previously discovered dependencies of a system that has been planned for so far. 2016-10-08T01:20:42Z FareTower: and you do NOT want to perform these actions more than once and trigger all kinds of dependency circularities as you do so, so the cache of what actions have been performed when must be shared and consulted before each attempt to perform again 2016-10-08T01:21:04Z FareTower: it's currently in the component-operation-times of each component. 2016-10-08T01:23:56Z FareTower: if an action is forced-not, it should be returned with an action stamp from this cache, and not with NIL as is currently wrongly done. 2016-10-08T01:24:15Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T01:24:33Z FareTower: (unless of course the cache entry is missing, at which point nil is the correct answer) 2016-10-08T01:25:19Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T01:25:27Z FareTower: conversely, a force means the stamp should be t (indicating it needs to be done in the future) 2016-10-08T01:28:59Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T01:29:15Z FareTower: (that part asdf gets right) 2016-10-08T01:32:06Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-10-08T01:46:40Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T01:47:20Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-08T01:47:32Z eli joined #lisp 2016-10-08T01:50:10Z FareTower: eli: hi! 2016-10-08T01:50:31Z eli: FareTower: Good morning! 2016-10-08T01:50:37Z FareTower is now known as Fare 2016-10-08T01:51:36Z Fare: eli: how does racket deal with building non-racket files, e.g. C libraries, etc. 2016-10-08T01:51:38Z fnord_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T01:51:47Z Fare: are there module system extensions to deal with that 2016-10-08T01:52:01Z Fare: or does it have to be handled specially outside the module system? 2016-10-08T01:52:21Z eli: You mean C code that implements a Racket module? 2016-10-08T01:52:38Z Fare: in CL, we have things like CFFI-grovel that extend ASDF to teach it about C files, etc. 2016-10-08T01:52:43Z eli: Or random C code that is needed for whatever reason? 2016-10-08T01:52:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: Might be better to ask in #racket 2016-10-08T01:52:44Z Fare: yes 2016-10-08T01:52:47Z Fare: both 2016-10-08T01:53:03Z Fare: Well, I ask in the context of comparing with how ASDF or Bazelisp do it. 2016-10-08T01:53:48Z eli: I think that there is some minimal support in that it knows how to invoke the C compiler and the magic flags that are needed to make it generate a so/dll file 2016-10-08T01:54:29Z eli: But as far as the interesting things about a build go, it's probably more minimal than what you'll find in anything that has "CFFI" in its name. 2016-10-08T01:54:54Z eli: Probably my fault, since having a dynamic ffi means that very little attention was left for dealing with C files. 2016-10-08T01:55:35Z Fare: np 2016-10-08T01:56:00Z Fare: But since Racket is generally so advanced, it might be one case where CL is slightly ahead. 2016-10-08T01:56:04Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-08T01:56:08Z Fare: oh so slightly 2016-10-08T01:57:20Z eli: Yeah, I won't be surprised -- because of that change in focus. 2016-10-08T01:58:01Z eli: It is still possible to implement a module completely in C (ie, an extension), but not trivial to do so, and probably not as well documented. 2016-10-08T01:58:04Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-08T02:00:41Z Fare: what about linking arbitrary libraries outside of racket? 2016-10-08T02:01:17Z Fare: I don't suppose racket or its module system is geared towards building arbitrary code from third parties, etc. 2016-10-08T02:03:05Z Fare: I'm still considering building my "build system of the future" some day. Racket could be a good basis for it. It would be quite ironic if it had to evolve from ASDF. 2016-10-08T02:05:53Z eli: Fare: linking is not interesting, no? 2016-10-08T02:10:20Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-08T02:10:34Z Fare: well, it's sometimes needed 2016-10-08T02:12:41Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T02:13:19Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T02:17:41Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T02:24:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-08T02:25:11Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T02:26:54Z Fare: so, every action node has a status from the various plan visits, plus status as having been performed in the past or not, being scheduled in the current operate body or not, etc. 2016-10-08T02:28:26Z Fare: being performed is intrinsic to the node itself (hence cached in component-operation-times), scheduled to be done for the current operate target is specific to each (recursive) call to operate, visited is tied to the graph traversal attached to the session. 2016-10-08T02:28:44Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-08T02:30:39Z pierpa``` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-08T02:36:33Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T02:44:50Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-08T02:50:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-08T02:50:59Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-08T02:52:06Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T02:57:58Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-08T03:02:07Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-10-08T03:07:28Z tigg joined #lisp 2016-10-08T03:08:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T03:09:05Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T03:12:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T03:12:37Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T03:12:56Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-08T03:19:37Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T03:23:13Z mrottenkolber: PuercoPop: I think it is, thanks! 2016-10-08T03:24:19Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-08T03:31:01Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-08T03:36:46Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-08T03:39:40Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T03:45:02Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-08T03:45:28Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-08T03:45:54Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T03:48:13Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-08T03:53:41Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T04:00:22Z waynecolvin joined #lisp 2016-10-08T04:02:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T04:08:55Z bluezone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-08T04:18:02Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T04:18:44Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-08T04:18:52Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-08T04:18:56Z minion: beach, memo from jasom: you talk about random testing, are you aware of AFL (automatically generates inputs for novel paths through the code) or csmitl (randomly generates valid C programs and compiles and runs on different C implementations) 2016-10-08T04:20:05Z beach: jasom: I read up on fuzz testing, and what I do seems to have little in common with it. The purpose of what I do is to test protocol correctness, not to detect incorrect random input or to discover crash situations. 2016-10-08T04:20:24Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-08T04:21:00Z buckybit` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T04:21:05Z buckybit` joined #lisp 2016-10-08T04:21:43Z beach: jasom: For what I do, it is necessary to have a specification of the protocol, and that specification is provided by a second, simple, and probably slow, version of the protocol. The test is conducted by systematic comparison between the real version and the second version of the implementation. 2016-10-08T04:22:43Z emeritus quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-08T04:22:52Z emeritus joined #lisp 2016-10-08T04:29:11Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'll look again. 2016-10-08T05:16:30Z beach: Thanks to you, I realized that my "simple, trivial, slow" implementation of the protocol used for comparison is, in fact, a specification of what the protocol is supposed to do. Because the two implementations are totally different (they should be), it is highly unlikely that the "same" error would sneak into both implementation and thus go undetected. 2016-10-08T05:18:52Z easye quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T05:18:58Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2016-10-08T05:20:33Z easye joined #lisp 2016-10-08T05:20:56Z beach: jasom: I don't see the similarity. Maybe I am missing something. Csmith seems to be for testing compilers. And I don't see any alternative protocol implementation used for comparison. 2016-10-08T05:21:29Z jasom: beach: it runs known valid C programs against either a reference compiler or the same compiler with optimizations on/off 2016-10-08T05:21:37Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T05:22:00Z jasom: then compares the outputs 2016-10-08T05:22:05Z beach: Yeah, OK. That does seem similar. Thanks for pointing that out. 2016-10-08T05:24:09Z beach: Have you seen anything written about such a testing strategy in more general terms, i.e., not specifically for testing compilers. If nothing exists, I should give it a name, write it up, and send it to some conference for publication. 2016-10-08T05:24:31Z jasom: beach: I have not 2016-10-08T05:24:56Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-08T05:25:32Z drmeister: Hi beach 2016-10-08T05:25:44Z beach: jasom: Someday, I should do a more extensive literature search. 2016-10-08T05:25:50Z beach: Hello drmeister. 2016-10-08T05:27:04Z drmeister: For the new type inference code I've implemented typeq-instruction. Should I remove this: (cleavir-hir-transformations:eliminate-typeq init-instr) 2016-10-08T05:27:14Z stardiviner quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-08T05:28:07Z drmeister: Should typeq-instruction be left in the HIR and is it now the only way that types are checked? fixnump-instruction and consp-instruction are depreciated? 2016-10-08T05:29:10Z beach: I am thinking that only TYPEQ-INSTRUCTION should be present for the type inferencer to work. 2016-10-08T05:29:26Z Bike: what the hey does eliminate-typeq do 2016-10-08T05:29:47Z beach: Replaces them with calls to TYPEP as I recall. 2016-10-08T05:30:10Z JohnMcClain1 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T05:30:28Z beach: An implementation might translate some TYPEQ-INSTRUCTIONs to consp and fixnump if it doesn't want to translate typeq directly, but mostly I think they should be deprecated. 2016-10-08T05:30:31Z Bike: looks like it changes them into fixnump or consp if it can 2016-10-08T05:31:13Z akkad: which of the sqlite packages is best maintained? 2016-10-08T05:31:20Z beach: Yeah, OK. Either way, I think the elimination of typeq should be implementation specific. 2016-10-08T05:31:41Z Bike: i think probably i will have to go back at some point and put in some typexpand calls in ast-to-hir 2016-10-08T05:31:57Z JohnMcClain quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T05:32:23Z drmeister: I've moved the code for fixnump-instruction and consp-instruction into typeq-instruction. 2016-10-08T05:32:30Z beach: Bike: That's possible. I don't have that part fresh in memory. 2016-10-08T05:32:55Z Bike: but yeah, i guess that transformation would have to be implementation-specific. i mean, just a regular typep call, should be able to do a lot better than that depending on the underlying representations 2016-10-08T05:33:02Z beach: drmeister: In the code that the type inferences should work on, I think that is the correct thing to do. 2016-10-08T05:33:21Z csziacobus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T05:33:42Z drmeister: I'll take the plunge and upgrade cleavir this weekend. 2016-10-08T05:34:13Z drmeister: I copied ECL's accessor optimization today - I got a 10x boost in CLOS accessor operation. 2016-10-08T05:34:20Z beach: Bike: Since many types are implementation specific, like the exact floats and array types, the implementation may want to translate specific typeqs to its own tests. 2016-10-08T05:34:29Z Bike: right. 2016-10-08T05:34:49Z drmeister: Yes, I'm doing that for single-float and character, they are also tagged pointers. 2016-10-08T05:34:52Z Bike: since that is in fact what drmeister is doing 2016-10-08T05:35:50Z vento joined #lisp 2016-10-08T05:36:37Z drmeister: This is my current implementation of the typeq-instruction code generator. 2016-10-08T05:36:38Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327951 2016-10-08T05:37:17Z beach: A typical implementation (not Clasp) would have a MIR level where address calculations are exposed and where the data manipulated can be anything (not only Common Lisp objects) and TYPEQ would typically expand to such MIR code in many cases. Only when it is not possible would a call to TYPEP be generated. 2016-10-08T05:37:24Z Bike: you could do like typeq does and emit a typep call. 2016-10-08T05:38:06Z Bike: also, instead of a case it's more robust (but slower) to do (cons ((type-equal 'fixnum value-type) ...) ((type-equal 'cons value-type) ...) 2016-10-08T05:38:15Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-10-08T05:39:10Z drmeister: Better: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327951#1 2016-10-08T05:40:09Z drmeister: cons? or cond? 2016-10-08T05:40:14Z Bike: cond, sorry 2016-10-08T05:40:23Z beach: drmeister: I am about to have breakfast with my wife, so I need to look at your code some other time. 2016-10-08T05:40:28Z drmeister: Got it. 2016-10-08T05:40:30Z drmeister: No problem. 2016-10-08T05:40:42Z beach: drmeister: I am on a dinky computer with a dinky display, so it is not easy to do any serious work. 2016-10-08T05:40:44Z drmeister: It's a lot of llvm-ir gobbledy gook. 2016-10-08T05:40:56Z Bike: also, in some cases the branches won't be likely, but whatever 2016-10-08T05:42:02Z beach: The thing you need to remember is to do the type inference after the escape analysis, and that the instruction that takes an object out of a "cell" should give the type T to the resulting value, at least for now. 2016-10-08T05:42:43Z drmeister: I have a more general question about types. Functions have types and I can declare the types of arguments within a function. Do function types ever derive from the declared types of arguments of a function? 2016-10-08T05:42:45Z Bike: pretty sure i didn't include that in the inference so it should default so. 2016-10-08T05:43:03Z beach: Bike: OK. 2016-10-08T05:43:17Z Bike: drmeister: not in my code, unfortunately. 2016-10-08T05:43:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-08T05:43:34Z Bike: deriving function types implies recursive steps that don't fit immediately into beach's algorithm. 2016-10-08T05:44:33Z Bike: plus a bunch of subtle bullshit relating to redefinitions 2016-10-08T05:44:34Z drmeister: How about more generally, what did the Common Lisp designers envision? 2016-10-08T05:45:01Z beach: drmeister: It is complicated by the fact that each implementation may assign a different meaning to type declarations, and it may do so differently in different situations and for different values of OPTIMIZE flags. 2016-10-08T05:46:38Z beach: drmeister: If you compile a call to a function, taking the function type into account, and then the function is redefined later, the code that was compiled may be incorrect, and the system may crash. 2016-10-08T05:46:53Z drmeister: Yes. 2016-10-08T05:47:09Z beach: The only time when you can do that reliably is for Common Lisp standard functions. 2016-10-08T05:47:26Z Bike: yeah. so, there's a rule that the compiler can assume functions in the same unit won't be redefined like that. but i have no idea how cleavir handles compilation units, and i didn't go into that. 2016-10-08T05:47:59Z beach: Right, and that assumption may be wrong, if you want to be able to do C-c C-c in SLIME. 2016-10-08T05:48:19Z drmeister: Does cleavir handle compilation units? I think that is my job. 2016-10-08T05:48:33Z beach: It currently does not handle compilation units. 2016-10-08T05:49:09Z beach: I should go. Talk to you later. 2016-10-08T05:49:13Z beach left #lisp 2016-10-08T05:49:21Z Bike: and there are recursion problems since functions that call one another can influence each other's derived types 2016-10-08T05:50:53Z Bike: and you'd have to alter the environment and it's just... more involved. 2016-10-08T05:51:35Z drmeister: ok 2016-10-08T05:53:58Z drmeister: Well, I'm sidling up to incorporate it. I didn't want to be surprised by several errors at once. So I started implementing the typeq-instruction translator first. Then I was going to create compiler macros to convert fixnump and consp to generate typeq. If that all works then I was going to upgrade sicl. 2016-10-08T05:55:05Z drmeister: I got (cheerfully) dragged into fixing a funcallable objects bug. Once I found that - I remembered enough to improve accessor performance. So it's all good. 2016-10-08T05:55:15Z Bike: yeah, that sounds like a big win. 2016-10-08T05:56:08Z drmeister: I'm waiting for Shinmera to cycle the power on his autobuild program. Something in clasp broke it a couple of days ago so I haven't been able to see the effect of the new accessors on build time. 2016-10-08T05:56:18Z drmeister: Anyway, I'm off to bed - thanks for the advice! 2016-10-08T05:56:23Z Bike: see you. 2016-10-08T05:56:35Z drmeister: I'll keep you informed. 2016-10-08T06:06:10Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T06:07:23Z Jameser__ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T06:07:25Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T06:07:41Z Jameser__ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-08T06:07:49Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-08T06:09:33Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-08T06:11:09Z Jameser_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T06:13:25Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T06:13:36Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T06:14:22Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T06:17:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T06:21:15Z thomas1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-08T06:21:28Z thomas joined #lisp 2016-10-08T06:29:21Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-08T06:35:17Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-10-08T06:36:38Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-08T06:47:50Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T06:48:17Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T06:48:52Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T06:50:28Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T06:53:17Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T07:02:02Z Aiwass joined #lisp 2016-10-08T07:03:11Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-08T07:04:42Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-08T07:08:46Z jackdaniel: good mornining o/ 2016-10-08T07:10:01Z doc_solitude joined #lisp 2016-10-08T07:22:16Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T07:24:03Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-08T07:26:04Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-08T07:35:52Z flip214_ is now known as flip214 2016-10-08T07:35:57Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2016-10-08T07:35:58Z flip214 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T07:36:04Z flip214 is now known as flip214_ 2016-10-08T07:36:22Z flip214_ is now known as flip214 2016-10-08T07:41:05Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-08T07:42:03Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T07:42:34Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T07:43:33Z doc_solitude quit (Quit: doc_solitude) 2016-10-08T07:46:12Z doc_solitude joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:03:52Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:04:28Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-08T08:05:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:10:45Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T08:14:07Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:15:57Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:16:20Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T08:17:15Z ak5: hi! I am a webdeveloper and I want to take the plunge. Do I start with hunchentoot? Clack? I am not at all with CL but have written some scheme and clojure. Any pointers appreciated 2016-10-08T08:18:22Z jackdaniel: ak5: there is #lispweb for web people 2016-10-08T08:18:36Z jackdaniel: from my little experience hunchentoot is solid (but it's more webserver than a framework) 2016-10-08T08:18:54Z dmiles: a framework ? 2016-10-08T08:19:05Z jackdaniel: Clack is advertised afaik, but I have no experience in webdev 2016-10-08T08:19:17Z dmiles: awesome i might try Clack 2016-10-08T08:19:48Z jackdaniel: "web application environment" they say 2016-10-08T08:20:04Z jackdaniel: caveman2 and ningle are frameworks built on clack 2016-10-08T08:20:14Z jackdaniel: go figure: http://clacklisp.org/ 2016-10-08T08:21:24Z jackdaniel: weblocks is a fun thing to work on too (I had episode with it), but it's very CL-ispy (non-linear learning curve) 2016-10-08T08:26:07Z myrkraverk_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:26:20Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T08:26:31Z myrkraverk_ is now known as myrkraverk 2016-10-08T08:28:01Z ak5: jackdaniel: ok thanks, I am checking it out. 2016-10-08T08:29:20Z ak5: Also I am a vim person... I have heard so much about emacs + slime by now that I think I should get around ot learning it but I don't think learning both emacs and CL at the same time is the way to go - or am I wrong 2016-10-08T08:29:51Z jackdaniel: regarding vim, there is slimv for CL integration (never used it, don't know how well supported is it) 2016-10-08T08:30:13Z myrkraverk: ak5: I would not try to learn both at the same time. 2016-10-08T08:30:18Z jackdaniel: most people here use emacs+slime, so you would gain most help with this combination 2016-10-08T08:30:23Z myrkraverk: And I've been using emacs for years. 2016-10-08T08:30:30Z myrkraverk: (but not really gotten into the slime yet) 2016-10-08T08:30:54Z jackdaniel: there is also cl-jupyter if you are into that 2016-10-08T08:31:14Z jackdaniel: (https://github.com/fredokun/cl-jupyter) 2016-10-08T08:31:44Z ak5: hmm, for learning I would love to have something that would complete built-ins and show me their signatures 2016-10-08T08:31:44Z jackdaniel: jasom created plugin for geany too 2016-10-08T08:31:58Z jackdaniel: https://phab.jasom.org/diffusion/GL/ 2016-10-08T08:32:24Z jackdaniel: slime shows signatures in modeline, I think slimv does that too 2016-10-08T08:32:28Z myrkraverk: ak5: actually, the line editor in quicklisp completes symbols. 2016-10-08T08:32:37Z jackdaniel: line editor? 2016-10-08T08:32:46Z myrkraverk: I don't remember what it's called. 2016-10-08T08:32:49Z jackdaniel: linedit you mean? it is implementation-specific sadly 2016-10-08T08:32:52Z myrkraverk: let me look at my sbclrc 2016-10-08T08:33:36Z jackdaniel: ak5: I would try with VIM + SLIMV on your place 2016-10-08T08:33:45Z ak5: great, thanks a ton 2016-10-08T08:33:55Z jackdaniel: s/on/in/ 2016-10-08T08:33:55Z myrkraverk: (funcall (intern "INSTALL-REPL" :linedit) :wrap-current t))) ; <--- that in my sbclrc completes symbols for me, in the shell. 2016-10-08T08:34:10Z myrkraverk: jackdaniel: so yes, linedit. 2016-10-08T08:34:50Z myrkraverk: Though, I don't get why it needs to funcall and intern. 2016-10-08T08:35:06Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: as I said, it's SBCL/CCL only 2016-10-08T08:35:21Z jackdaniel: regarding funcall/intern - you can't make a reference to the package before it's created 2016-10-08T08:35:37Z jackdaniel: so you can't write linedit:install-repl if linedit isn't loaded yet 2016-10-08T08:35:51Z jackdaniel: (packages are resolved eagerly, symbols are interned in packages) 2016-10-08T08:36:57Z myrkraverk: Oh I see. 2016-10-08T08:37:25Z myrkraverk: Though, above, I do have (ql:quickload :linedit) ; so I can probably rewrite my sbclrc if I ever care to. 2016-10-08T08:38:03Z jackdaniel: it's not that simple, because file first is read, and after that it is executed 2016-10-08T08:38:14Z jackdaniel: packages/symbols are resolved at the read-time 2016-10-08T08:39:18Z jackdaniel: you could do: #.(ql:quickload :linedit) , but I'm sure most people would consider it uglier than funcall intern 2016-10-08T08:39:19Z myrkraverk: Hmm, I think I want to patch linedit. 2016-10-08T08:39:50Z myrkraverk: Ah, I see. 2016-10-08T08:40:05Z myrkraverk: Yeah, I really need to get to grips with read/load/eval time stiff some day. 2016-10-08T08:41:33Z ak5: practical common lisp good first literature? 2016-10-08T08:41:59Z Bike: wait, shouldn't .sbclrc be loaded? if so the file is read one form at a time. 2016-10-08T08:42:22Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:42:48Z jackdaniel: ak5: yes, it is a very good introduction to CL 2016-10-08T08:42:56Z ak5: ok 2016-10-08T08:43:20Z jackdaniel: Bike: I don't know that, if I brought confusion - sorry 2016-10-08T08:43:39Z dunderproto joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:44:45Z myrkraverk: ak5: yes, PCL is very nice intro -- it's one of the things that helped me a lot. 2016-10-08T08:44:47Z dunderproto: how can I use fastcgi with sbcl? http://www.cliki.net/FastCGI suggests sb-fastcg 2016-10-08T08:44:55Z myrkraverk: There's another book I used, but now I don't remember the title. 2016-10-08T08:45:30Z myrkraverk: dunderproto: I'm actually interested in that, but haven't had to research that for work yet. 2016-10-08T08:45:46Z myrkraverk: dunderproto: does sb-fastcg exist? 2016-10-08T08:45:57Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-08T08:46:10Z dunderproto: Cliki suggests it, but I've never tried it 2016-10-08T08:46:28Z myrkraverk: Will it work to edit the linedit git source checkout in quicklisp? Or do I then have to compile it specifically? 2016-10-08T08:47:19Z myrkraverk: dunderproto: well, please keep me informed if you do try it. 2016-10-08T08:47:30Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:47:48Z myrkraverk: Ok, just editing the code doesn't help. 2016-10-08T08:47:55Z myrkraverk: Can I tell quicklisp that code-in-place has changed? 2016-10-08T08:48:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:48:22Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:49:04Z myrkraverk: Hmm, nothing immediately comes to mind in the ql: namespace. 2016-10-08T08:49:46Z shrdlu68: Hi guys, I'm getting this: http://vhbin.net/x2i0bd1m477j while trying to (ql:quickload :cl-charms). SBCL 1.3.9.74-b7f16a3, latest quicklisp release. 2016-10-08T08:50:23Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T08:51:44Z Bike: your asdf is too old. it's a stupid problem 2016-10-08T08:52:00Z knobo: shrdlu68: ware you able to talk with your modem the other day? 2016-10-08T08:52:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T08:52:41Z tigg quit 2016-10-08T08:52:48Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-08T08:52:55Z Bike: you can download a newer one from the site and load it 2016-10-08T08:57:07Z myrkraverk: Hmm, oh yes, it does actually work to edit the code in-place. I just had a bug in my changes. 2016-10-08T08:58:14Z attila_lendvai: shrdlu68: the simplest fix is to update/compile your sbcl 2016-10-08T09:03:28Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T09:07:37Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-08T09:08:51Z StephanLahl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T09:10:08Z StephanLahl joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:10:29Z knobo: just run: ros install sbcl/1.3.10 2016-10-08T09:10:36Z knobo: if you have roswell 2016-10-08T09:11:41Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:12:53Z Bike quit (Quit: hidden forbidden) 2016-10-08T09:14:18Z dunderproto quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-08T09:15:16Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:19:39Z PosterdatiMobile quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-08T09:22:15Z Jameser quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-08T09:23:37Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:24:19Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:24:59Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:27:48Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:33:20Z myrkraverk: And posting it here too, in case someone else runs into this problem: http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/2016/10/building-sbcl-on-os-x-yosemite/ 2016-10-08T09:35:12Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T09:35:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T09:35:22Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:35:22Z attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 2016-10-08T09:35:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-08T09:35:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:36:44Z vento quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-08T09:37:57Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:38:09Z myrkraverk: And incidentally, what is the official github for linedit? 2016-10-08T09:38:53Z myrkraverk: I thought it was nikodemus/linedit but it seems the quicklisp checkout has stuff that's not there -- or maybe it's been removed since last ql checkout. 2016-10-08T09:43:41Z shrdlu68: knobo: Yeah, I worked it out, silly me. I wasn't flushing output _to th device_. I suppose I needed some sleep. 2016-10-08T09:44:03Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:44:40Z shrdlu68: attila_lendvai: Okay, I'll try updating, but my SBCL is really recent. 2016-10-08T09:50:28Z myrkraverk: So how do I contact the linedit people, when https://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/linedit-devel is 404? 2016-10-08T09:54:34Z myrkraverk: Well, mail sent -- probably to a spam filter. 2016-10-08T09:55:11Z knobo: shrdlu68: which version do you have? 2016-10-08T09:55:52Z shrdlu68: knobo: SBCL 1.3.9.74-b7f16a3 2016-10-08T09:56:12Z shrdlu68: I checked out the git repo and compiled about 2 months ago. 2016-10-08T09:56:12Z mk2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T09:56:28Z mk2 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T09:56:59Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T09:57:23Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T10:05:52Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T10:07:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T10:08:03Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-08T10:08:53Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-08T10:10:06Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-10-08T10:13:45Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T10:15:12Z otjura quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-08T10:18:45Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-08T10:22:49Z ak5 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-08T10:28:20Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-08T10:31:00Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T10:31:15Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-08T10:31:23Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-10-08T10:35:27Z shrdlu68: Well I have SBCL 1.3.10.44-7a6fc84 now and the error still persists. 2016-10-08T10:36:48Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T10:39:59Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-08T10:41:06Z lexicall: how do I compile the libraries loaded by quicklisp? I used asdf:defsystem and marked :depends-on (:cl-csv) but it seems that asdf didn't include the cl-csv library/ 2016-10-08T10:42:01Z XachX_: Quickload compiles and loads. 2016-10-08T10:42:38Z lexicall: XachX_: I want to compile them into a monolithic fasl file . 2016-10-08T10:43:21Z XachX_: lexicall: that is something for direct asdf commands. I don't remember the syntax. It was recently discussed here though. 2016-10-08T10:43:54Z lexicall: XachX_: alright, I'll check the irc log. 2016-10-08T10:44:18Z XachX_: Something like monolithic fasl op. 2016-10-08T10:46:13Z lexicall: "create-monofasl-op" 2016-10-08T10:46:47Z lexicall: alright, I think I got that. monolithic-compile-bundle-op 2016-10-08T10:49:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-08T10:51:57Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T10:54:49Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-08T10:56:11Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-10-08T11:01:37Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T11:02:17Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-08T11:04:31Z scymtym: shrdlu68: iirc, the error you are seeing is caused by cffi requiring a newer asdf version than the one included in sbcl. i don't remember what the fix is, though. maybe putting a recent asdf version into quicklisp/local-projects helps 2016-10-08T11:05:26Z myrkraverk: I've not so recently put in a newer asdf into my ql -- I think. 2016-10-08T11:05:31Z myrkraverk: and it "just works" for some reason. 2016-10-08T11:06:22Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-08T11:06:22Z myrkraverk: IIRC, replacing /wherever/quirklisp/asdf.lisp just works. 2016-10-08T11:06:34Z myrkraverk: - spelling errors. 2016-10-08T11:06:36Z raydeejay: quirklisp xD nice typo 2016-10-08T11:06:44Z myrkraverk: haha, yes. 2016-10-08T11:06:56Z shrdlu68: Shouldn't updating quicklisp take care of that? 2016-10-08T11:06:57Z jackdaniel: quicklisp loads asdf only if it's not present in the system 2016-10-08T11:07:13Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't replace asdf.lisp *in* quicklisp, rather load it before QL 2016-10-08T11:07:40Z myrkraverk: jackdaniel: in my case, I had a very old SBCL -- I don't remember where I put it, but loading it before QL may have done the trick. 2016-10-08T11:07:50Z jackdaniel: regarding updating, ASDF API isn't stable, I think that's a reason of not updating it (and ASDF grows constantly) 2016-10-08T11:07:59Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T11:08:18Z jackdaniel: s/of not updating it/of not updating it in QL/ 2016-10-08T11:08:44Z shrdlu68 wonders what exactly this asdf stuff is. 2016-10-08T11:09:18Z myrkraverk: shrdlu68: system definition something or other. It's the platform (if that's a word that applies) that QL is bulit on top of. 2016-10-08T11:09:19Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: asdf is a build system which replaced mk-defsystem 2016-10-08T11:09:20Z shrdlu68 is a young lispling who found quicklisp and never had to use asdf directly. 2016-10-08T11:09:44Z myrkraverk: shrdlu68: Yeah, same -- except when my SBCL was so old I couldn't load QL without updating asdf. 2016-10-08T11:09:54Z xenti3 quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2016-10-08T11:10:04Z myrkraverk: That was probably on some production Linux or other. 2016-10-08T11:10:31Z jackdaniel: QL loads sufficient for its needs ASDF if its not present, it's weird you couldn't load it 2016-10-08T11:10:48Z jackdaniel: either way, see you later o/ 2016-10-08T11:21:03Z `lain quit (Quit: bye.) 2016-10-08T11:21:35Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-08T11:22:56Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-08T11:27:40Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T11:33:21Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-08T11:34:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-08T11:37:04Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T11:37:40Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-08T11:40:42Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-08T11:41:35Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-08T11:44:04Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T11:44:08Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-08T11:44:13Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-08T11:44:28Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T11:44:59Z lexicall: anybody familiar with abcl? i ran the example code "lisp-to-java" code on the official website but yields "Class not found: Main" 2016-10-08T11:45:13Z lexicall: it cannot find the Main class. 2016-10-08T11:47:59Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T11:48:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T11:48:57Z razzy89__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T11:59:16Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:00:52Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-10-08T12:02:16Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:09:39Z easye: minion: memo for lexicall: Come over to #abcl if you want help with the "lisp-to-java" code. I am not sure exactly what you are trying to do. 2016-10-08T12:09:40Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell lexicall when he/she/it next speaks. 2016-10-08T12:11:10Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:15:35Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:18:56Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T12:28:57Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:29:05Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:30:49Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:31:45Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-08T12:33:03Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:33:32Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T12:36:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:40:17Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T12:40:25Z lucasb joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:42:07Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:42:54Z myrkraverk: Why does (sb-alien:define-alien-routine "foo" (* void)) ; give me this error: cannot use values types here 2016-10-08T12:43:00Z myrkraverk: When (* int) works? 2016-10-08T12:45:03Z vento joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:47:33Z myrkraverk: And I can "fix" it with (setf sb-alien-internals:*values-type-okay* t) 2016-10-08T12:47:40Z myrkraverk: Which, to be honest, I have no idea what does. 2016-10-08T12:48:24Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T12:51:11Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:53:00Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:56:53Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-10-08T12:57:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:01:27Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:02:03Z scymtym: myrkraverk: the first bullet point in http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Foreign-Type-Specifiers describes how to specify pointer types including the equivalent of "void *" 2016-10-08T13:02:43Z myrkraverk: Oh, yeah. I forgot about (* t) 2016-10-08T13:05:44Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T13:06:54Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:09:27Z clog joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:09:45Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:13:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T13:14:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:16:25Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:18:38Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T13:18:43Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-08T13:27:01Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:27:13Z pkkm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-08T13:30:51Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:32:01Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:33:52Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T13:34:12Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:35:13Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:38:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:38:48Z solyd joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:42:25Z myrkraverk: Is there a simple and (somewhat) efficient way to read an entire file into a string? 2016-10-08T13:42:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:42:52Z myrkraverk: Does read-sequence apply in this case? 2016-10-08T13:43:15Z H4ns: alexandria:read-file-into-string is efficient in that you can just use it. 2016-10-08T13:43:40Z H4ns: it has a relatively small buffer size, but that is unlikely to really matter. 2016-10-08T13:44:16Z drdo: H4ns: Does it do mmap? 2016-10-08T13:44:22Z H4ns: drdo: no. 2016-10-08T13:44:39Z H4ns: drdo: just have a look at the source if you're interested in knowing how it is implemented. 2016-10-08T13:44:39Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-08T13:44:53Z drdo: Well, if it doesn't, there isn't much to it :P 2016-10-08T13:45:04Z drdo: You just read everything into memory 2016-10-08T13:45:27Z H4ns: drdo: right. modern systems are pretty good at doing that at very high speeds. 2016-10-08T13:45:35Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:45:50Z drdo: That's perfectly fine for small files 2016-10-08T13:46:03Z drdo: Depending on what you're doing 2016-10-08T13:46:17Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:46:30Z H4ns: there may be cases where copying overhead is a problem, but i'd claim that the bulkload of performance problems are rooted elsewhere. 2016-10-08T13:47:14Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-08T13:47:19Z drdo: Apropos, is there some way to query the OS for an optimal buffer size? 2016-10-08T13:47:34Z drdo: Well, optimal read size 2016-10-08T13:47:37Z myrkraverk: Hmm, for this particular exercise, I'm trying to rely as much on plain old CL as I can + SBCL extensions. 2016-10-08T13:47:41Z slowup joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:47:59Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:48:18Z drdo: Sure, just curious 2016-10-08T13:48:24Z H4ns: drdo: there is no single "optimal" 2016-10-08T13:48:39Z drdo: H4ns: Of course, it depends on the device and system and lots of other things 2016-10-08T13:48:44Z myrkraverk: And yeah, I can use make-string with read-sequence in this case. 2016-10-08T13:48:48Z drdo: That's why only the kernel could possibly know 2016-10-08T13:49:29Z H4ns: "of course" 2016-10-08T13:51:56Z Cymew: drdo: Optimal read size like aligned with disk block size, or what? 2016-10-08T13:52:52Z drdo: Cymew: I don't know, it can get pretty complicated 2016-10-08T13:53:00Z drdo: Who knows if what you're reading is even straight from a disk 2016-10-08T13:53:16Z drdo: There are all sorts of weird filesystems 2016-10-08T13:53:22Z drdo: Including networked ones 2016-10-08T13:54:00Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-08T13:54:11Z Cymew: OK, but that level of complexity. Yeah, that sounds very platform specific, and no longer very much in the CL problem domain. 2016-10-08T13:54:40Z jackdaniel: almost-general-purpose programming language? :p 2016-10-08T13:54:43Z drdo: Cymew: This has nothing to do with CL 2016-10-08T13:54:53Z Cymew: jackdaniel: Almost. :) 2016-10-08T13:55:03Z drdo: I was just wondering if Linux, for example, had some way to query it for advice on read size 2016-10-08T13:55:38Z Cymew: Without knowing the fs type and much more, no, I'd say. 2016-10-08T13:56:05Z drdo: Cymew: Linux knows all that 2016-10-08T13:56:35Z H4ns: there is no single number that would be "optimal". some file systems dynamically adjust read-ahead based on the application read pattern, and they do that by looking how application reads. 2016-10-08T13:56:56Z H4ns: things are way more complicated than just using the right buffer size. 2016-10-08T13:57:18Z drdo: Well, linux probably already does this actually 2016-10-08T13:57:19Z H4ns: and no, the kernel "does not know all that" 2016-10-08T13:57:48Z H4ns: "probably" not. 2016-10-08T13:57:55Z drdo: I doubt that it doesn't buffer 2016-10-08T13:58:17Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T13:58:30Z drdo: H4ns: I also don't know what you mean with "does not know all that". File system code is in the kernel, it's literally what controls that 2016-10-08T13:58:32Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-08T13:58:32Z pkkm joined #lisp 2016-10-08T13:59:40Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:00:08Z razzy89__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T14:00:16Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T14:00:17Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:00:44Z razzy89__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T14:00:57Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:02:09Z puJJari joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:02:23Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:02:39Z razzy89___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T14:02:55Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:03:00Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:03:22Z razzy89___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T14:03:33Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:03:41Z jackdaniel: drdo: it would require special interface to which kernel driver hooks in, so kernel can query filesystem for that particular information. Linux kernel doesn't have such interface 2016-10-08T14:04:03Z puJJari left #lisp 2016-10-08T14:05:24Z razzy89__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T14:06:17Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:08:44Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T14:10:48Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:11:35Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:12:06Z eli quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T14:12:08Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:12:37Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T14:13:19Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:16:06Z Cymew: drdo: I'd say lot of the information about the state of the fs is in the kernel data structures, but the knowhow of how those states interrelate is not there, only in your head. 2016-10-08T14:16:13Z slowup left #lisp 2016-10-08T14:16:36Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T14:16:53Z drdo: Cymew: It could be very realistically be though, hence the question 2016-10-08T14:17:21Z Cymew: Go ahead and trawl /proc and see what you can do. I'd love to hear what you can do. But, it sounds very complex. 2016-10-08T14:17:31Z drdo: I'm not looking to do it, was just curious 2016-10-08T14:17:53Z Cymew: Well. I don't think anyone yet has found the need. ;) 2016-10-08T14:17:58Z drdo: The kernel probably does buffering internally already 2016-10-08T14:18:06Z Cymew: I do a lot of stuff 2016-10-08T14:18:10Z Cymew: Opps 2016-10-08T14:18:16Z Cymew: s/I/It/ 2016-10-08T14:19:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:19:48Z ferada_ is now known as ferada 2016-10-08T14:23:42Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T14:24:19Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:25:00Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T14:28:44Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T14:29:18Z slowup joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:30:38Z noorbeh joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:32:28Z waynecolvin: someone wanted linux fileblock size according to /proc ? http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/52215/determine-the-size-of-a-block-device 2016-10-08T14:32:52Z eivarv quit (Quit: Quit) 2016-10-08T14:34:07Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:34:32Z zhang123 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:36:59Z noorbeh quit (Quit: noorbeh) 2016-10-08T14:37:28Z Guest52318 left #lisp 2016-10-08T14:38:04Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T14:38:43Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:39:04Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:42:12Z Fare: hi 2016-10-08T14:43:52Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T14:46:44Z vento quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-08T14:47:32Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T14:56:48Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-08T14:57:44Z ASau quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-08T14:58:26Z slowup left #lisp 2016-10-08T14:59:14Z Einwq joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:00:15Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:01:04Z Einwq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T15:01:44Z Einwq joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:03:25Z slowup joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:03:46Z slowup: hi 2016-10-08T15:08:42Z Cymew: Lots of fun to do with block devices there. :) 2016-10-08T15:09:25Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T15:09:29Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-08T15:09:52Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T15:10:38Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T15:10:57Z zhang123 left #lisp 2016-10-08T15:11:05Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:12:42Z cmatei joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:12:43Z Aiwass quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T15:13:14Z slowup: yes ken eas a funny boy. anyway vfs solves a lot of troubles 2016-10-08T15:13:20Z slowup: was 2016-10-08T15:14:33Z steventog quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-08T15:17:02Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T15:19:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T15:21:13Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:21:13Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Changing host) 2016-10-08T15:21:13Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:23:29Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:24:15Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:25:12Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:26:05Z pidu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-08T15:29:42Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:34:04Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T15:36:45Z slowup quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T15:38:23Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:39:55Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-08T15:44:41Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T15:46:23Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:46:33Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:47:03Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T15:47:31Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-08T15:48:37Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:49:43Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T15:51:33Z ak5: hi, despite everyone telling me NOT to learn emacs and lisp at the same time, I am trying to do just that, because I found evil mode, which makes the editor pretty vim like. I am having an issue with slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp or C-c C-] though, it says "symbol's function definition is void: incf" then I tried adding (require 'cl) as per google, now its saying "invalid function incf" - any ideas? 2016-10-08T15:52:32Z JuanDaugherty: u know there's an emacs channel, right? 2016-10-08T15:52:49Z jackdaniel: (not direct answer to your question, but paredit for emacs is worth learning if you go that path, it keeps parens balanced) 2016-10-08T15:52:59Z jackdaniel: JuanDaugherty: that was slime question 2016-10-08T15:53:08Z jackdaniel: what is very CL related 2016-10-08T15:53:28Z ak5: jackdaniel: checking paredit, thanks 2016-10-08T15:53:32Z ak5: that's what I actually want 2016-10-08T15:53:53Z jackdaniel: I know a few VIM people who use spacemacs and they say it's awesome 2016-10-08T15:54:04Z JuanDaugherty: jackdaniel, true 2016-10-08T15:54:29Z Fare: it's not a function, it's a macro 2016-10-08T15:54:35Z ak5: jackdaniel: I actually did try that, and ditched it for the same reason I don't want shiny-ide-xyz - I don't get it at all 2016-10-08T15:54:37Z JuanDaugherty: and there doesn't appear to be an emacs lisp channel, but i assume the main one serves for that 2016-10-08T15:54:39Z Fare: so you must recompile after you load the macro 2016-10-08T15:55:03Z Fare: emacs has bad error messages 2016-10-08T15:57:19Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-08T15:59:52Z jsgrant: ak5: Eintr is pretty nice. 2016-10-08T16:00:42Z ak5: jsgrant: googling gives weird results 2016-10-08T16:00:44Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:01:08Z jsgrant: ak5: 'Emacs Lisp Intro', it's included (or should be) in 'info' in your Emacs distro. 2016-10-08T16:01:18Z ak5: after reading this, I kinda wanna ditch evil mode again https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7828760 2016-10-08T16:01:25Z ak5: jsgrant: thanks will check it out 2016-10-08T16:01:53Z jsgrant: It's weirdly kinda geared to "beginners" but works as an okay primer. 2016-10-08T16:02:00Z jsgrant: begninner programmers. 2016-10-08T16:03:06Z loke`: What do beginner programmers start with these days? Back in my days (80's) you just used the BASIC that was installed on your computer, but these days? 2016-10-08T16:03:11Z loke`: HTML and JS? 2016-10-08T16:03:22Z jsgrant: loke`: Ruby & Python. 2016-10-08T16:03:42Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:03:44Z jsgrant: JS too, yeah. 2016-10-08T16:03:49Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T16:04:39Z steelbird quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T16:04:47Z jsgrant: Webdev 'won' the starter market. 2016-10-08T16:05:04Z Fare: yeah, already installed is JS, or a language on top of JS... which might as well be WeScheme, as part of Bootstrap! 2016-10-08T16:05:23Z Fare: http://www.bootstrapworld.org/ 2016-10-08T16:07:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:08:27Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-08T16:09:52Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T16:10:07Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:13:28Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:13:37Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T16:15:13Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T16:17:39Z hel-io quit 2016-10-08T16:17:57Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:18:19Z jsgrant: loke`: I do think the 'paradox of choice' is a problem, learning to program nowadays. 2016-10-08T16:19:11Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:19:44Z jsgrant: I went from something along the lines of C++ -> Python -> C -> Emacs Lisp -> C++ -> Racket -> CL or similar. 2016-10-08T16:20:44Z jsgrant: & Rust + Go as of recentish. 2016-10-08T16:21:48Z loke`: Hmm 2016-10-08T16:22:29Z loke`: I have noticed that a lot of the developers I work with these days (who are significantly younger than me) has a much worse understanding of how stuff works on the inside than I have. 2016-10-08T16:23:07Z myrkraverk: loke`: I think that's because today people aren't taught how the 'puter actually works inside. 2016-10-08T16:23:25Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:23:48Z myrkraverk: Part of my education was z80 assembly (for some reason when I was supposed to learn intel, the school had changed the course description to be something utterly different and I learned to troubleshoot windows95 instead) 2016-10-08T16:24:00Z jsgrant: loke`: Think langhopping may be a reason, but that said, I think the recent economic incentive pushes many people who probably wouldn't have gone into programming 30 years ago. 2016-10-08T16:24:19Z jsgrant: Also, it's just trendy. And/or 10+ other reasons. 2016-10-08T16:24:35Z myrkraverk: jsgrant: that's certainly true -- lots of people do it now who would never have thought of it last century. 2016-10-08T16:25:04Z myrkraverk: In the assembly world, I went z80 -> misp (playstation2) -> intel. 2016-10-08T16:25:06Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:25:10Z myrkraverk: *mips 2016-10-08T16:25:27Z myrkraverk: And honestly, I try not to know too much about intel, but i can't help it much. 2016-10-08T16:25:29Z jsgrant: myrkraverk: Did you do homebrew scene? 2016-10-08T16:25:47Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:26:06Z myrkraverk: jsgrant: kind of -- I bought the linux kit when they were still supported by sony and tried to make a game, but never got 3d math + the hardware well enough to actually achieve something. 2016-10-08T16:26:17Z myrkraverk: But I did manage to put a wireframe house on the screen. 2016-10-08T16:26:39Z myrkraverk: And now my kit is in a different country, so I can't play with it ;c 2016-10-08T16:28:32Z myrkraverk: And now, I have been wondering if I can achieve similar hardware with FPGAs -- I just don't know if I can do those kinds of vector units with it. 2016-10-08T16:28:38Z jsgrant still has his orginal 'Wii' jailbroke, but never done anything with it. 2016-10-08T16:29:25Z jsgrant is still waiting on a semi-complete FOSS-toolchain for FPGAs; But is excited to play around with em' in a few years. 2016-10-08T16:29:52Z myrkraverk: I do have an arduino (or a clone) but had trouble talking to it for the silliest reason ever (as a clone it has pl2303) : the os x driver from prolific makes my bluetooth keyboard stop working. 2016-10-08T16:29:54Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-10-08T16:30:33Z myrkraverk: And I cane more about my keyboard than playing with the arduino. 2016-10-08T16:31:22Z jsgrant: myrkraverk: Yeah, bummer. 2016-10-08T16:31:33Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T16:31:46Z jsgrant wants a beagleboard. 2016-10-08T16:33:41Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T16:35:11Z cpc26 quit 2016-10-08T16:35:58Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:36:16Z jsgrant: Wonder what happened to that PicoLisp on a board. 2016-10-08T16:37:34Z myrkraverk: jsgrant: there's ulisp for arduinos. 2016-10-08T16:38:19Z eni joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:38:28Z myrkraverk: And if I ever get my arduino to work, I'm wondering if I can make a programming interface in lisp; that is, a lisp (subset) -> arduino compiler. 2016-10-08T16:38:32Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:38:47Z myrkraverk: At least I have a howto in L.i.S.P. 2nd ed. 2016-10-08T16:39:04Z jsgrant: myrkraverk: Neat, bookmarked, ty. 2016-10-08T16:39:17Z waynecolvin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T16:42:22Z waynecolvin joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:44:21Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:45:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: myrkraverk: lisp in small parts? 2016-10-08T16:47:05Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:49:22Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-08T16:49:24Z phoe: Petit_Dejeuner: seems so 2016-10-08T16:56:30Z Fare: jsgrant, what made you go from Racket to CL, and what do you think of the difference? 2016-10-08T16:56:40Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T16:57:00Z myrkraverk: Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, or something. I have the 2nd edition in french. 2016-10-08T16:57:16Z jackdaniel: do you mean lisp in small pieces? 2016-10-08T16:57:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: The one on writing lisp compilers. 2016-10-08T16:57:39Z jackdaniel: OK, then it's pieces, not parts :) 2016-10-08T16:57:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: Spends the first few chapters talking about multiple/single namespaces. 2016-10-08T16:57:43Z myrkraverk: jackdaniel: Yes, except the title is slightly different in french, with the same acronym. 2016-10-08T16:57:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: jackdaniel: yeah, that's pretty confusing 2016-10-08T16:58:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: myrkraverk: Do you remember the french title? 2016-10-08T16:58:14Z myrkraverk: wait, I'll go get the book. 2016-10-08T16:58:51Z gabot joined #lisp 2016-10-08T16:59:21Z myrkraverk: The logo is Principes d'Implanation de Scheme et Lisp with a box notation to order it into L.i.S.P. 2016-10-08T16:59:34Z myrkraverk: Or L.I.S.P. 2016-10-08T16:59:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: Appreciate it. 2016-10-08T16:59:58Z myrkraverk: I understand the French sufficiently to read the book (mostly). 2016-10-08T17:00:08Z myrkraverk: And of course the code is in English. 2016-10-08T17:00:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's easier to read a foreign language when it's about a topic you already know. 2016-10-08T17:00:25Z myrkraverk: Yeah. 2016-10-08T17:00:32Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T17:00:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: There's some French teaching progrmaming language. The documentation reads almost exactly like the english version. 2016-10-08T17:01:26Z myrkraverk: I was hoping to be able to use the chapter on octet compilation, to make a subset->avr (arduino) compiler. But that's a topic for next year I guess. 2016-10-08T17:02:05Z myrkraverk: I don't really know if I need to learn more French than just vocabulary now -- at least to read books. 2016-10-08T17:02:06Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:02:31Z myrkraverk: Once upon a time I had no trouble reading novels in French. 2016-10-08T17:02:38Z myrkraverk: Now, not so much, but tech books seem ok. 2016-10-08T17:03:26Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:05:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: myrkraverk: For me it's the lack of grammar. 2016-10-08T17:05:23Z myrkraverk: Ah. 2016-10-08T17:05:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: I can't understand anything but basic constructs. 2016-10-08T17:06:07Z myrkraverk: I just tried a paragraph in L.i.S.P just now, and had no trouble with it. 2016-10-08T17:06:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's good. 2016-10-08T17:06:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: Lots of loan words though, right? 2016-10-08T17:07:08Z myrkraverk: Not so sure -- I seem to have retained enough vocabulary to grok this book -- but then I've read it on-and-off for a few years now. 2016-10-08T17:07:13Z myrkraverk: so this is not my first time reading it. 2016-10-08T17:07:35Z myrkraverk: I was reading lots of novels in french in 2002 or so. 2016-10-08T17:07:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T17:07:57Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T17:08:06Z myrkraverk: Petit_Dejeuner: if you want to delve into french, I can recommend starting by reading simple short stories, like those (translated) by isaac asimov. 2016-10-08T17:08:24Z myrkraverk: But then, not everybody seems to learn languages like I do. 2016-10-08T17:09:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ah, that's perfect. 2016-10-08T17:09:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: I assume the translations are free online. 2016-10-08T17:10:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hm, maybe not. 2016-10-08T17:10:47Z grublet2 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:10:48Z myrkraverk: I got them in the library back then -- I don't know about online. 2016-10-08T17:11:01Z Petit_Dejeuner: Are you canadian, myrkraverk? 2016-10-08T17:11:14Z myrkraverk: Petit_Dejeuner: no. I just lived in France once. 2016-10-08T17:12:25Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T17:14:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T17:18:36Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T17:19:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:22:30Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:22:39Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2016-10-08T17:22:39Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:23:22Z Fare: duolingo is great for learning languages 2016-10-08T17:24:26Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:27:43Z impulse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T17:29:09Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T17:34:07Z funnel quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-08T17:34:48Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T17:36:11Z funnel joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:40:06Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T17:44:17Z hel-io quit 2016-10-08T17:46:56Z eli joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:48:00Z Guest80273 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T17:48:57Z Gehenna joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:50:00Z eni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T17:50:02Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T17:52:25Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:52:38Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2016-10-08T17:52:38Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:55:09Z Th30n_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:56:27Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-08T17:58:16Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T17:58:56Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:07:39Z Gehenna quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-08T18:08:23Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:09:17Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:14:39Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:18:13Z Th30n_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T18:23:11Z nocd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T18:25:44Z Anselmo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T18:26:33Z Anselmo joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:27:26Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:27:27Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:28:49Z nocd joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:32:13Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:37:34Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T18:38:03Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:45:58Z doc_solitude quit (Quit: doc_solitude) 2016-10-08T18:52:46Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:54:42Z nocd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T18:56:32Z nocd joined #lisp 2016-10-08T18:57:35Z jason_m: I'm running some code that uses cffi. I'm interacting with lisp through emacs/slime. Is it possible that I can debug the c side of things by attaching gdb? I've tried to attach it to my sbcl process, but as soon as I do, the SBCL process is killed. So it must not be quite that straight forward. 2016-10-08T19:01:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T19:02:19Z pjb: jason_m: Perhaps you could try another implementation? 2016-10-08T19:03:20Z pjb: attaching and detaching with ccl doesn't kill it. 2016-10-08T19:03:40Z jackdaniel: jason_m: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/tag/quarterly.html#orgheadline6 (grep "running ecl in gdb" - this may work with sbcl as well) 2016-10-08T19:03:57Z jackdaniel: generally: (setq inferior-lisp-program 2016-10-08T19:03:58Z jackdaniel: "gdb --eval-command=run --eval-command=quit --args ecl") 2016-10-08T19:04:11Z jackdaniel: (but sbcl not ecl in your case) 2016-10-08T19:04:48Z pjb: It's a way to do it, but attaching has the advantage of being able to do that from a different terminal. 2016-10-08T19:04:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T19:05:00Z pjb: Which when debugging a slime inferior process, seems to be required. 2016-10-08T19:05:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-08T19:06:27Z ggole quit 2016-10-08T19:09:03Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-08T19:10:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T19:12:49Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-08T19:16:52Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-08T19:21:26Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T19:22:37Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T19:22:39Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-08T19:24:46Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-08T19:30:12Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T19:40:01Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T19:42:00Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-08T19:42:46Z myrkraverk: jason_m: I've successfully debugged C functions by running sbcl in lldb. 2016-10-08T19:43:02Z myrkraverk: Not using emacs or slime for that though. 2016-10-08T19:49:51Z jason_m: thanks for the suggestions 2016-10-08T19:51:25Z KaliLinuxGR joined #lisp 2016-10-08T19:51:37Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T19:55:27Z jason_m: I was trying to run gdb from within the same emacs instance. pjb, you mentioned "a different terminal". That seems initially promising (the sbcl process hasn't been killed). 2016-10-08T19:58:40Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-08T20:10:36Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T20:17:35Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T20:22:56Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T20:23:52Z diogo joined #lisp 2016-10-08T20:24:33Z diogo: Is it possible to convert 212322.4473 to a string without rounding it? Notice that even evaluating 212322.4473 at the REPL immediately rounds it 2016-10-08T20:25:43Z myrkraverk: dlowe: I remember reading a paper about accurately representing floating point numbers in text, probably in the ACM archive. 2016-10-08T20:25:58Z myrkraverk: But other than that vague reference, I can't help. 2016-10-08T20:26:09Z myrkraverk: diogo: ^^^ 2016-10-08T20:26:12Z myrkraverk: dlowe: sorry. 2016-10-08T20:26:31Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-08T20:26:45Z pjb: diogo: 212322.4473 is already a string, is it not? 2016-10-08T20:27:01Z pjb: diogo: have a look at *read-default-float-format* 2016-10-08T20:27:14Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-08T20:28:44Z bocaneri is now known as Sauvin 2016-10-08T20:28:54Z diogo: I mean convert from the number to the string. *read-default-float-format* seems like it might help, i'll look into it thanks both! 2016-10-08T20:29:36Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T20:29:46Z raydeejay: what number? you're reading a stream of characters 2016-10-08T20:29:51Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-10-08T20:30:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T20:31:32Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T20:32:06Z White_Flame: diogo: Your default format is single-float. 212322.4473d0 forces it to be a double-float, which will retain all the digits 2016-10-08T20:32:29Z diogo: This number: 212322.4473. Ofcourse this in this chat i'm putting the characters that represent the number, there is no other way to tell you what it is, but i mean the data type number 2016-10-08T20:32:30Z White_Flame: regardless of the default read format 2016-10-08T20:33:03Z diogo: Ah, thanks White_Flame! 2016-10-08T20:33:05Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-08T20:33:33Z White_Flame: single precision floats can only hold something like 6-9 digits of precision 2016-10-08T20:33:35Z pjb: (float 2123224473/10000 0.0) #| --> 212322.44 |# (float 2123224473/10000 0.0d0) #| --> 212322.4473D0 |# 2016-10-08T20:33:48Z White_Flame: while doubles go out to 17 or so 2016-10-08T20:35:13Z pjb: (format nil "~G" (float 2123224473/10000 0.0d0)) #| --> "212322.4473 " |# 2016-10-08T20:35:23Z pjb: (format nil "~F" (float 2123224473/10000 0.0d0)) #| --> "212322.4473" |# 2016-10-08T20:36:04Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T20:36:18Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T20:36:29Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-08T20:37:21Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-10-08T20:38:26Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-08T20:40:37Z wooden__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T20:43:15Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T20:43:27Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-08T20:44:02Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-08T20:47:05Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T20:53:42Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T20:53:57Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T20:57:36Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-08T20:57:57Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T21:06:53Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-08T21:07:01Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T21:07:23Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-08T21:08:53Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T21:10:08Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-10-08T21:10:13Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T21:10:46Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-08T21:15:13Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-08T21:19:05Z steventog joined #lisp 2016-10-08T21:25:32Z newcup joined #lisp 2016-10-08T21:26:56Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T21:27:35Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-08T21:31:10Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-08T21:34:52Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-08T21:34:57Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T21:37:47Z pavelpenev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T21:39:57Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-08T21:44:25Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-08T21:44:33Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-10-08T21:49:09Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T21:56:11Z raydeejay: love emacs <3 2016-10-08T21:56:47Z raydeejay: now I don't have to read 'th' jokes in a certain channel in a certain network ever again 2016-10-08T21:57:27Z Colleen quit (Quit: See you, space cowboy...) 2016-10-08T21:57:51Z Colleen joined #lisp 2016-10-08T21:57:51Z chrpape quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T21:58:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-08T21:58:08Z chrpape joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:03:12Z kartik joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:03:42Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:04:10Z kartik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T22:04:27Z k4rtik joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:07:39Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-08T22:09:08Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:09:58Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T22:12:25Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:12:49Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:15:18Z easye: minion: clhs symbol-macro 2016-10-08T22:15:18Z minion: you speak nonsense 2016-10-08T22:15:31Z easye: alright. Sorry to have bothered you. 2016-10-08T22:15:37Z easye: minion: how are you? 2016-10-08T22:15:37Z minion: it's going quite fine today 2016-10-08T22:15:56Z easye: minion: It is raining here in Vienna. 2016-10-08T22:15:56Z minion: Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 38 seconds is too many. 2016-10-08T22:16:13Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:17:11Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:18:17Z raydeejay: leave poor minion alone 2016-10-08T22:18:21Z raydeejay: clhs symbol-macro 2016-10-08T22:18:21Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for symbol-macro. 2016-10-08T22:20:04Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T22:25:00Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T22:25:23Z easye apologizes again to the beloved minion. 2016-10-08T22:26:16Z easye: Thanks specbot! 2016-10-08T22:28:15Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T22:28:24Z Bike: clhs define-symbol-macro 2016-10-08T22:28:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm 2016-10-08T22:29:04Z easye: was what I was thinking of. But thanks. 2016-10-08T22:29:57Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:30:57Z cromachina_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-08T22:32:07Z easye the sinking feeling that what he is contemplating with CL:IMPORT and CL:UNINTEN has already been implemented in UIOP. 2016-10-08T22:32:11Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:32:16Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:32:42Z easye nudges Fare to export some friggin' docstrings already. 2016-10-08T22:32:56Z cromachina quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-08T22:33:21Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:35:00Z easye: Actually there are pretty good docstrings. Does this show up in quickdocs now? 2016-10-08T22:35:46Z easye: Nope. Dead links e.g. . 2016-10-08T22:35:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:36:05Z easye: Goes back to reading the UIOP source. 2016-10-08T22:43:38Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-08T22:45:30Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:50:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-08T22:51:33Z jason_m quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-08T22:53:25Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-08T22:54:15Z beaky: hello 2016-10-08T22:54:29Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-08T22:54:44Z beaky: how does sbcl manage to optimize out mapcar style code 2016-10-08T22:55:19Z beaky: when i thought i would be creating N new cons cells turns out its as fast as LOOP? 2016-10-08T22:55:28Z Bike: it transforms direct mapcar calls into loops, which can then inline the function being called. 2016-10-08T22:55:34Z Bike: it still creates n new cons cells though. 2016-10-08T22:57:25Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-08T22:58:55Z jbalint quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-08T23:08:13Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Or, by chance, knows the math behind estimating repeating xor keylengths? 2016-10-09T04:10:57Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-09T04:12:03Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T04:12:56Z ggole__ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-09T04:15:05Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T04:15:29Z whiteline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-09T04:15:42Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-10-09T04:15:50Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-09T04:16:12Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T04:25:44Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T04:26:41Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-10-09T04:29:29Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-09T04:39:31Z Bike: is there no information on how to guess? it kind of looks like they might mean brute force though. 2016-10-09T04:43:43Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-09T04:47:01Z Bike: oh, it's sort of the later steps. looks like it just wants some hamming distance comparisons. 2016-10-09T04:51:51Z myrkraverk: Yeah -- only I didn't get anything close to rank 1-3 for the actual keylongth. 2016-10-09T04:52:04Z myrkraverk: So I'm attempting to code what's described here: http://trustedsignal.blogspot.com/2015/06/xord-play-normalized-hamming-distance.html 2016-10-09T04:52:18Z trn joined #lisp 2016-10-09T04:52:41Z myrkraverk: Because the description in cryptopals gives the impression I should be able to get meaningful value with just the first two values. 2016-10-09T04:52:47Z myrkraverk: But that may be a red herring. 2016-10-09T04:53:29Z marusich_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-09T04:53:30Z ben_vulpes joined #lisp 2016-10-09T04:53:37Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-09T04:54:01Z ben_vulpes: does `with-open-file' on linux generally follow a file that's been moved or continue to read from the named file? 2016-10-09T04:54:27Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-09T04:56:17Z |3b|: once a file is open on linux, filename doesn't matter (or filenames, can have many) 2016-10-09T04:57:36Z ben_vulpes: thanks |3b|. is it possible to know when the file's been moved? 2016-10-09T04:58:17Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T04:58:27Z |3b| isn't sure, but since a file can have 0 names or multiple names, the question isn't completely well defined to start with 2016-10-09T04:58:33Z ben_vulpes: lovely 2016-10-09T04:58:47Z |3b|: if a file has 2 names and the one you opened it with is removed, was the file "moved"? 2016-10-09T04:59:26Z ben_vulpes: yup great question. 2016-10-09T04:59:31Z myrkraverk: I would like to return (or use) the last counter value from a loop along with a sum. Is that possible? (loop :for counter :from 0 :to N :sum (stuff ...) ...) ; and return both the counter and sum. 2016-10-09T04:59:37Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-09T05:00:22Z ben_vulpes: myrkraverk: summing into and then finally return (values counter thing-you-summed-into) ? 2016-10-09T05:02:53Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-09T05:03:20Z myrkraverk: Oh yeah -- I've never used :into yet. Let's try that. 2016-10-09T05:03:42Z neoncontrails quit 2016-10-09T05:09:27Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-09T05:10:30Z ben_vulpes left #lisp 2016-10-09T05:10:49Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-09T05:11:06Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T05:11:56Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-09T05:13:10Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-09T05:19:09Z Jameser_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-09T05:19:58Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-09T05:21:32Z mk2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T05:29:12Z myrkraverk: And for the record, that worked. Now I have a working key length estimation for cryptopals 1.6 so I can say I've concluded it. 2016-10-09T05:30:58Z jackdaniel: o/ 2016-10-09T05:33:01Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-09T05:33:52Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-09T05:33:52Z iskander quit (Quit: Quit) 2016-10-09T05:38:16Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T05:46:42Z ben_vulpes joined #lisp 2016-10-09T05:50:00Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T05:52:54Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-09T05:55:19Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2016-10-09T05:59:42Z titankiller quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-09T06:01:34Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T06:03:21Z zhang123 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T06:03:40Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-09T06:06:16Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-09T06:15:04Z tigg joined #lisp 2016-10-09T06:15:10Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-09T06:15:32Z ak5: jackdaniel: thanks for paredit, good tip 2016-10-09T06:18:43Z cpc26_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-09T06:21:26Z axion quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-09T06:21:56Z axion joined #lisp 2016-10-09T06:22:25Z axion quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-09T06:22:34Z axion joined #lisp 2016-10-09T06:26:21Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T06:30:51Z Aiwass joined #lisp 2016-10-09T06:32:04Z jackdaniel: I'm glad I could help :) 2016-10-09T06:42:09Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T06:45:49Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-09T06:47:38Z ben_vulpes: once a file stream returns an EOF, if that file is written to will the CL stream still return EOF? 2016-10-09T07:02:04Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:02:16Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:02:41Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:03:52Z myrkraverk: I would like to use qt on os x. And right now qt4 is installing on mac ports. 2016-10-09T07:04:27Z myrkraverk: Is there anyone here who has experience of using qt in lisp, on os x, and can share pitfalls before I try to quicklisp it? 2016-10-09T07:06:36Z ale4L3 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:06:45Z groovy2shoes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-09T07:06:52Z jackdaniel: the only thing which comes to mind is that OSX requires that the GUI thread is the main one 2016-10-09T07:08:27Z myrkraverk: That's easy enough to handle, I think. 2016-10-09T07:08:29Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:13:43Z ale4L3 quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi) 2016-10-09T07:13:49Z myrkraverk: http://paste.lisp.org/+715D 2016-10-09T07:13:53Z myrkraverk: What does this error mean? 2016-10-09T07:14:01Z myrkraverk: Is there a way to find out? 2016-10-09T07:14:14Z myrkraverk: Because there's nothing on the screen that seems to tell me *what* could possibly be wrong. 2016-10-09T07:15:29Z Bike: it's not easy to read, but you can tell it failed while compiling a cpp file related to commonqt. 2016-10-09T07:15:45Z Bike: which is usually because there's a dep missing somewhere 2016-10-09T07:16:27Z myrkraverk: Oh yeah -- running make by hand tells me that smoke.h is missing. 2016-10-09T07:16:58Z myrkraverk: I have /opt/local/include/smoke.h 2016-10-09T07:17:11Z myrkraverk: Is there a way to tell quicklisp to tell the compiler to search there? 2016-10-09T07:17:16Z myrkraverk: Or do I have to edit the makefile? 2016-10-09T07:17:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T07:17:55Z Bike: there's probably some way to do it in asdf but hell if i know what it is 2016-10-09T07:18:00Z Bike: lemme see 2016-10-09T07:18:26Z doc_solitude joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:19:09Z myrkraverk: Well, this time I edited the make file by hand. 2016-10-09T07:19:11Z myrkraverk: and let it finish. 2016-10-09T07:19:16Z Bike: probably more expedient 2016-10-09T07:19:46Z myrkraverk: Yeah. 2016-10-09T07:20:00Z myrkraverk: And now (ql:quickload :qt) worked -- at least gave me no errors. 2016-10-09T07:20:03Z myrkraverk: Time for a hello world. 2016-10-09T07:20:49Z JohnMcClain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-09T07:21:35Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:21:45Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:21:51Z ale4L3 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:22:28Z tfb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-09T07:22:51Z JohnMcClain joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:23:20Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-09T07:23:43Z lambda-smith quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-09T07:24:07Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-09T07:24:09Z ale4L3 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-09T07:24:21Z tfb joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:25:51Z ben_vulpes left #lisp 2016-10-09T07:27:15Z myrkraverk: no dispatch function defined for #\_ 2016-10-09T07:27:23Z myrkraverk: Why do I get that, when I try the examples on the website? 2016-10-09T07:28:11Z Bike: probably you need to install the readtable 2016-10-09T07:28:18Z Bike: "To enable the reader macro, use (named-readtables:in-readtable :qt) at the top of your file." 2016-10-09T07:30:04Z myrkraverk: thanks, that gives me a link error -- now to solve that c; 2016-10-09T07:30:10Z Bike: what? 2016-10-09T07:32:20Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:34:45Z myrkraverk: Yeah, by "default" my system doesn't look in /opt/local/lib 2016-10-09T07:35:02Z myrkraverk: So I have to add that to LD_LIBRARY_PATH or use other tricks. 2016-10-09T07:35:12Z Bike: i'd use ldconfig 2016-10-09T07:35:18Z myrkraverk: I'm on OS X. 2016-10-09T07:35:19Z Bike: but i mean, you get that from in-readtable? 2016-10-09T07:35:30Z myrkraverk: No, after using in-readtable. 2016-10-09T07:35:32Z Bike: dyld, i guess 2016-10-09T07:35:57Z Bike: oh, they just have everything in environment variables. i can dig it 2016-10-09T07:36:09Z myrkraverk: Maybe. I usually add this stuff to my binaries when I don't use CL -- sometimes I use the REPL, sometisem i use the script, so I don't always have binaries to edit with CL. 2016-10-09T07:36:47Z myrkraverk: It's possible to change these things with install_name_tool on os x, when there's a binary. 2016-10-09T07:37:13Z myrkraverk: Of course, I haven't yet tried save-lisp-and-die and edit it, but for now, I have a main window I can play with. 2016-10-09T07:42:54Z nha_ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:43:24Z nha_: how come ctrl-c stops raising a signal after i use save-lisp-and-die on sbcl? 2016-10-09T07:44:25Z Bike: probably fucks up the signal handlers somehow 2016-10-09T07:44:33Z Bike: you are supposed to die after calling save-lisp-and-die, anyway 2016-10-09T07:44:46Z nha_: yea i mean when i run the image it generated 2016-10-09T07:45:01Z Bike: Oh. 2016-10-09T07:45:50Z jackdaniel: isn't it DY_something on OSX not LD_LIBRARY_PATH? 2016-10-09T07:46:31Z Bike: dyld 2016-10-09T07:46:34Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:46:42Z myrkraverk: No idea. I can think of two things: something is breaking the signal handler, something is changing the terminal to raw mode (or eqivalent). 2016-10-09T07:46:52Z myrkraverk: LD_LIBRARY_PATH works too. 2016-10-09T07:47:30Z jackdaniel: really? hrm 2016-10-09T07:52:27Z myrkraverk_ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T07:54:53Z titankiller quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T07:55:17Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-09T07:55:21Z myrkraverk_ is now known as myrkraverk 2016-10-09T07:58:09Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-09T08:05:13Z zhang123 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T08:06:23Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-09T08:17:38Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-09T08:17:44Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-09T08:20:25Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-09T08:21:55Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-09T08:25:06Z Aiwass quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-09T08:25:56Z ak5 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-09T08:26:57Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-09T08:27:13Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T08:30:25Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-09T08:31:05Z rszeno joined #lisp 2016-10-09T08:31:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-09T08:34:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-09T08:34:58Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-10-09T08:35:01Z Bike quit (Quit: quat) 2016-10-09T08:35:24Z pyx joined #lisp 2016-10-09T08:35:38Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-09T08:39:55Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-09T08:46:42Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I don't know what a finite field is. 2016-10-09T10:23:01Z myrkraverk: Ok, for a different term: I need a linear algebra package that does binary arithmetic. 2016-10-09T10:23:08Z myrkraverk: As in, each number is just 0 and 1. 2016-10-09T10:23:56Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T10:24:37Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-09T10:24:52Z loke` looks at the source for BLAS... Funny that. 2016-10-09T10:25:24Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-09T10:25:28Z loke`: It's FORTRAN (nothing wrong wit that), but the code style is quite old... Everything upper case. GOTO's, etc. 2016-10-09T10:26:51Z loke`: Sorry, I meant LAPACK 2016-10-09T10:27:11Z myrkraverk: Yeah, I looked at lapack -- and didn't see anything about finite fields. Only double and complex and stuff. 2016-10-09T10:27:42Z loke`: Does Maxima do it? If so, you could look at its code. 2016-10-09T10:28:15Z loke` has been using Maxima lately for simple stuff (when studying physics on my own), and it's quite nice 2016-10-09T10:29:05Z myrkraverk: Hmm, I don't know -- I guess I could look at it. 2016-10-09T10:29:31Z myrkraverk: I only have maxima on my tablet, but I guess it's better to start with it. 2016-10-09T10:30:11Z myrkraverk: So if I can use it, then I get to figure out how to hook into maxima from the lisp side c; 2016-10-09T10:31:02Z loke`: Since Maxima is written in Lisp, that should be simple enough. 2016-10-09T10:33:49Z myrkraverk: Yeah, only I have no experience with it -- only the other way around. 2016-10-09T10:34:26Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-09T10:40:56Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-09T10:52:38Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-09T10:55:51Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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What limit am I hitting when (format nil "~$" 20000001) => "20000000.00" ? 2016-10-09T12:01:24Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T12:01:25Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:01:52Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T12:01:52Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:03:24Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:04:26Z haom joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:04:29Z haom: hello 2016-10-09T12:05:06Z beaky: ello 2016-10-09T12:05:10Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-09T12:05:11Z haom: I have a class with an initform and an initarg. Is there a way to check whether the initarg was passed or the initform was evaluated. 2016-10-09T12:05:43Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:06:00Z beaky: how do i compile lisp to sql 2016-10-09T12:06:40Z ggole: Coercion to single-float, I think 2016-10-09T12:06:44Z ggole: I don't think that made it through 2016-10-09T12:06:48Z raydeejay: nope 2016-10-09T12:07:15Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:08:17Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-09T12:09:21Z zshlyg: ggole: Thats it! Tried same number with coerce. 2016-10-09T12:09:24Z shrdlu68: beaky: There's cl-sql, which libraries like postmodern hsve used (iirc). One writes quesries in s-expression syntax. 2016-10-09T12:09:31Z beaky: ah thanks 2016-10-09T12:11:25Z shrdlu68: So when's the next X3J13 meeting? :) 2016-10-09T12:11:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:14:09Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:15:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-09T12:16:02Z shrdlu68: Is it possible to turn off buffering for a stream? 2016-10-09T12:18:41Z diogo quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-10-09T12:26:17Z u0_a176 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-09T12:27:04Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-09T12:29:21Z u0_a176 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:29:50Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:30:32Z myrkraverk: beaky: just use postmodern and don't worry about what driver it may or may not be using (it uses its own). 2016-10-09T12:30:53Z myrkraverk: That advice implicitly includes using postgres of course. 2016-10-09T12:31:24Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:31:49Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:34:13Z raydeejay quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-09T12:35:23Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-09T12:36:51Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:38:52Z raydeejay joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:40:36Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-09T12:42:14Z FDXZ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:47:02Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:47:50Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-09T12:50:43Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:50:58Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-09T12:53:27Z haom left #lisp 2016-10-09T12:53:57Z u0_a176 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-09T12:56:17Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:56:50Z lucasb joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:59:35Z Einwq joined #lisp 2016-10-09T12:59:37Z zhang123 quit 2016-10-09T13:00:19Z myrkraverk: Is it posseble to use floating point values in a loop variable? 2016-10-09T13:00:35Z myrkraverk: As in, when I want to go from -1.0 to 1 and step 0.5? 2016-10-09T13:00:46Z myrkraverk: Or, in that case, do I have to roll my own stuff? 2016-10-09T13:01:06Z raydeejay: :from -1.0 :to 1.0 :by 0.5 2016-10-09T13:01:37Z FDXZ quit 2016-10-09T13:02:13Z raydeejay: so, (loop :for x :from -1.0 :to 1.0 :by 0.5 :do (print x)) 2016-10-09T13:02:26Z ThOne joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:02:43Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:03:48Z myrkraverk: (loop :for x :from -0.1 :to 1.0 :by 0.5 :do (print x)) ; --> -0.1 0.4 0.9 2016-10-09T13:03:53Z myrkraverk: Not exactly what I wanted. 2016-10-09T13:04:12Z myrkraverk: I know floating point has some imprecision, but -- really? 2016-10-09T13:05:01Z myrkraverk: Seems I am better off by creating a list of the values I want, in this case. 2016-10-09T13:05:39Z lucasb: that seems mathematically correct, no? 2016-10-09T13:06:17Z lucasb: I mean the list -0.1 0.4 0.9. what values did you expect? 2016-10-09T13:06:31Z pavelpenev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-09T13:06:41Z u0_a176 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:07:02Z lucasb: did you mistake -0.1 for -1.0 ? 2016-10-09T13:07:06Z raydeejay: xD 2016-10-09T13:08:11Z raydeejay: here, this is better for precision (loop for x :from -1 :to 1 :by 1/2 :do (print x)) :D 2016-10-09T13:09:17Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:09:34Z _mjl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-09T13:10:55Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-09T13:11:17Z u0_a176 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T13:11:23Z myrkraverk: lucasb: Maybe C: 2016-10-09T13:12:13Z myrkraverk: In any case, I think I'm better off using a list, since I think I have to refer to values somewhere, later on. 2016-10-09T13:12:22Z myrkraverk: I'm practicing drawing things in Qt. 2016-10-09T13:12:43Z myrkraverk: And eventually I want to draw objects and not abstract coordinates in a loop. 2016-10-09T13:17:21Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T13:19:26Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-09T13:21:30Z ThOne: . 2016-10-09T13:21:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-09T13:21:39Z lispinsmokin joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:22:03Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:22:45Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:23:20Z lispinsmokin: Hi. (let ((a 1)) (car '(a 2 3))) returns A. In this situation, is it possible that I grab the value 1 from this A, as previously assigned lexically? 2016-10-09T13:23:29Z u0_a176 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:23:41Z lispinsmokin: like an eval for the lexical scope 2016-10-09T13:25:43Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:25:48Z lispinsmokin: I want to manipulate that car expressoin to get the value 1 2016-10-09T13:25:55Z myrkraverk: lispinsmokin: two ways `(,a 2 3) or (list a 2 3) 2016-10-09T13:26:38Z myrkraverk: You can always evaluate the symbol of course. 2016-10-09T13:26:42Z _death: lispinsmokin: lexical names are not available in runtime 2016-10-09T13:27:30Z lispinsmokin: ok, so if I pass the symbol and not it's value to another function, I can never get back to the its value? 2016-10-09T13:27:39Z lispinsmokin: its* 2016-10-09T13:28:07Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:28:19Z _death: you can use special variables or the symbol-value slot 2016-10-09T13:28:57Z lispinsmokin: I tried symbol-value but the error was that A is undefined 2016-10-09T13:29:15Z _death: (progv '(a) '(42) (symbol-value 'a)) 2016-10-09T13:29:57Z u0_a176 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T13:30:14Z _death: usually you can do things more efficiently though 2016-10-09T13:31:45Z lispinsmokin: I wan't, from within a function, produce a list of the arguments passed to that function whose values are non-nil. It seems so simple but I'm having total brain freeze. 2016-10-09T13:31:58Z u0_a176 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:32:00Z lispinsmokin: want* 2016-10-09T13:32:34Z _death: (defun sans-nils (&rest args) (remove nil args)) 2016-10-09T13:33:25Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:33:58Z lispinsmokin: I want that, but the resulting list to be the symbols not their values 2016-10-09T13:36:05Z shrdlu68: myrkraverk: You wouldn't have to roll your own stuff in any case, theres do. 2016-10-09T13:36:11Z _death: (defmacro non-nil-var-names (&rest names) `(append ,@(mapcar (lambda (name) `(when ,name (list ',name))) names))) 2016-10-09T13:38:04Z shrdlu68: myrkraverk: (do ((n -1.0 (incf n 0.5))) ((= n 1.0) n) (print n)) 2016-10-09T13:38:30Z lispinsmokin: _death thank you this works let me study this 2016-10-09T13:38:31Z myrkraverk: ah 2016-10-09T13:42:29Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-09T13:44:27Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-09T13:44:30Z myrkraverk: Do you guys know how to access enum types in Qt? 2016-10-09T13:45:00Z myrkraverk: That is, to translate this Python into Lisp: sizePolicy = QSizePolicy(QSizePolicy.Preferred, QSizePolicy.Preferred) 2016-10-09T13:45:37Z myrkraverk: (let ((size-policy (#_new QSizePolicy )))) 2016-10-09T13:46:57Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:46:57Z myrkraverk: Or better yet, know which kind of introspection functions I can use to find out? 2016-10-09T13:47:21Z myrkraverk: (qt:qdescribe "QSizePolicy") ; mentions nothing about the enums. 2016-10-09T13:48:10Z myrkraverk: Or maybe it does -- under methods. 2016-10-09T13:48:13Z myrkraverk: So let me try that. 2016-10-09T13:50:42Z myrkraverk: Wait, why does this happen: debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR: Class not found: QSizePolicy 2016-10-09T13:50:43Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-09T13:53:56Z myrkraverk: Maybe because of this? The alien function "sw_find_class" is undefined. 2016-10-09T13:55:39Z myrkraverk: But it used to work earlier today. 2016-10-09T13:56:18Z myrkraverk: I just don't get how SBCL/QuickLisp/ASDF can just randomly break. 2016-10-09T13:56:41Z myrkraverk: And that's a problem for another day. I'll do something else now. 2016-10-09T13:57:40Z ThOne quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-09T14:04:20Z lispinsmokin: _death so none of the macros I tried had ',name in them. I don't understand how this evaluates to the symbol name 2016-10-09T14:05:00Z lispinsmokin: if A is 1, does ',a not become (quote 1)? 2016-10-09T14:06:23Z Ven__ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:06:30Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-09T14:06:32Z _death: it's not ',a but ',name.. name evaluates to the symbol A 2016-10-09T14:07:47Z _death: (macroexpand-1 '(non-nil-var-names a b c)) 2016-10-09T14:09:21Z lispinsmokin: ofcourse x.x 2016-10-09T14:09:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:10:15Z lispinsmokin: OK I'm following it now, I was being stupid. Thanks for your help. 2016-10-09T14:21:21Z Ven__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-09T14:23:16Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T14:24:50Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:24:54Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:26:52Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:27:33Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-09T14:27:43Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-09T14:28:47Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:29:14Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:29:24Z setheus joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:36:53Z Blukunfando quit 2016-10-09T14:37:33Z gko_ quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-09T14:39:29Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-09T14:39:42Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-09T14:39:45Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:40:19Z gko joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:44:50Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:45:15Z tcr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-09T14:48:32Z lispinsmokin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T14:50:08Z slowup joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:50:58Z tcr joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:52:18Z deank joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:54:23Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-09T14:55:59Z tcr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-09T14:56:48Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-09T15:01:36Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T15:02:32Z beaky: hello 2016-10-09T15:05:28Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-09T15:06:50Z pipping watches the dialogue between myrkraverk and myrkraverk 2016-10-09T15:07:00Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-09T15:07:50Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T15:07:57Z raydeejay: that's so rude 2016-10-09T15:08:03Z raydeejay: it's clearly a private conversation 2016-10-09T15:08:27Z pipping: my apologies :S 2016-10-09T15:08:32Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T15:08:54Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-09T15:08:56Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-09T15:10:14Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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You may use ibcl to show you the source code of a function, but not the source file. 2016-10-09T16:10:44Z pjb: myrkraverk: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 2016-10-09T16:11:32Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T16:12:33Z myrkraverk: pjb: nice, thanks. 2016-10-09T16:13:25Z myrkraverk: Ok, I've worked through the bugs I was having earlier with Qt, and now I wonder if I found a bug in Qt. 2016-10-09T16:13:29Z GGMethos_ is now known as GGMethos 2016-10-09T16:13:39Z myrkraverk: To demonstrate, I think I need to make a video. 2016-10-09T16:14:09Z myrkraverk: Aaand I'll do that later. 2016-10-09T16:15:01Z myrkraverk: On os x, where afaict, I don't have a "click anywhere in a window to drag it around" button, like I have in X11 sometimes, it's really annoying that the window can suddenly get higher than the screen. 2016-10-09T16:18:01Z [Batou] joined #lisp 2016-10-09T16:18:02Z HisaoNakai left #lisp 2016-10-09T16:18:03Z [Batou] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-09T16:23:02Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-09T16:23:48Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-09T16:24:36Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-09T16:24:50Z Einwq quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-09T16:25:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-09T16:26:46Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-487-cbf5c38 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-09T16:27:16Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-09T16:28:19Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-09T16:28:48Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-10-09T16:29:14Z Einwq joined #lisp 2016-10-09T16:30:02Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-09T16:31:01Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T16:32:37Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-09T16:37:08Z Einwq quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-09T16:37:12Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-09T16:41:00Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T16:42:20Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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When I try to require one of the libraries that's there (e.g., (REQUIRE :RT)) which works on ECL on mac, it's busted on windows. 2016-10-09T22:52:37Z pipping: rpg: git bisect took me to https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/commit/7feed6c6f47e5aea3309f49694fbadf1da144d98 2016-10-09T22:52:45Z hhdave_ quit (Quit: hhdave_) 2016-10-09T22:52:45Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-09T22:53:02Z pipping: rpg: which explained why we were seeing this issue and suggested that serve-event should not be affected 2016-10-09T22:53:11Z rpg: Yes this is weirdly broken: "LOAD: Could not load file #P"C:/ECL/rt.fas" (Error: "The operation completed successfully." 2016-10-09T22:53:33Z rpg: I think that's ECL's problem, not ours! 2016-10-09T22:53:33Z pipping: that's a fun error. 2016-10-09T22:53:59Z rpg: cutting and pasting out of window terminal, alas, is a hot mess. 2016-10-09T22:55:29Z pipping: it's also odd that this happens on ecl_bytecodes but not regular ecl 2016-10-09T22:55:58Z rpg: I can't run regular ECL on Windows: I don't have the C toolchain. 2016-10-09T22:56:34Z rpg: I'll try to figure out how to report this to the ECL folks. But I feel confident that I am right to ignore it and let ASDF move forward. 2016-10-09T22:57:09Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-09T22:57:24Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-10-09T22:57:56Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-09T22:58:06Z pipping: this issue has existed since the day that the test was added, right? 2016-10-09T22:58:16Z rpg: Yes. 2016-10-09T22:59:17Z rpg: pipping: I have to go and finish a little gardening before it gets dark. But ASDF moves forward.... I actually think we have enough new material that the next release should probably be 3.2 2016-10-09T22:59:41Z rpg: TTYL! 2016-10-09T23:01:39Z pipping: rpg: yup, plenty of material. might be good to fix https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1629680 [and thus e.g. (run-program ... :if-output-exists :append)] before that though 2016-10-09T23:01:56Z pipping: rpg: ttyl! 2016-10-09T23:02:15Z rpg: agreed. I want to also merge Fare's stuff on obsolete function warnings, and my aggressive deprecation of MAKE-INSTANCE on OPERATION.... 2016-10-09T23:02:21Z rpg: but I think a new release is in sight. 2016-10-09T23:02:23Z rpg: TTYL 2016-10-09T23:05:18Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-09T23:08:09Z hellcode joined #lisp 2016-10-09T23:14:06Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-09T23:19:49Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T23:23:44Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T23:24:53Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-09T23:39:49Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-09T23:43:07Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-09T23:44:44Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T23:45:40Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-09T23:48:49Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-09T23:53:43Z brucem_ is now known as brucem 2016-10-09T23:53:46Z brucem quit (Changing host) 2016-10-09T23:53:46Z brucem joined #lisp 2016-10-09T23:59:46Z fortitude joined #lisp 2016-10-10T00:05:08Z boomer quit (Changing host) 2016-10-10T00:05:09Z boomer joined #lisp 2016-10-10T00:05:12Z boomer is now known as Bitch 2016-10-10T00:13:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T00:20:10Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-10T00:26:37Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T00:35:39Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T00:37:09Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-10T00:39:51Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-10T00:45:16Z phax joined #lisp 2016-10-10T00:46:20Z phax quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-10T00:46:51Z phax joined #lisp 2016-10-10T00:47:19Z phax is now known as phax2 2016-10-10T00:47:21Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2016-10-10T00:47:29Z phax2 is now known as phax 2016-10-10T00:52:52Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T00:55:05Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-10T00:55:12Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-10T00:56:02Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T00:57:43Z klltkr quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-10T01:08:30Z Fare: what's the correct way to compile clisp to avoid the problem with http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.clisp.devel/22907 ? 2016-10-10T01:10:51Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:13:20Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T01:17:43Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:21:06Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:28:24Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T01:29:24Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-10T01:29:41Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-10T01:29:55Z axion quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-10T01:29:55Z dlowe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-10T01:30:01Z fnord_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T01:30:29Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T01:30:52Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:31:32Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T01:32:13Z dlowe joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:34:02Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T01:35:36Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:37:41Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:38:30Z TMA joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:39:37Z axion joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:40:11Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:41:34Z ak5 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-10T01:41:53Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:44:21Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:49:23Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T01:49:42Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2016-10-10T01:49:45Z phax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T02:07:17Z safe joined #lisp 2016-10-10T02:07:33Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T02:08:58Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-10T02:09:17Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T02:14:49Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-10T02:15:12Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-10T02:15:13Z khunt joined #lisp 2016-10-10T02:15:24Z khunt quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-10-10T02:17:57Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-10T02:18:06Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T02:19:39Z ovenpasta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T02:24:12Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T02:27:16Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-10T02:41:29Z cpc26_ quit 2016-10-10T02:42:28Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-10T02:43:10Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T02:46:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T02:51:16Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T02:52:34Z hellcode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T03:04:48Z trn quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-10T03:05:56Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:08:01Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T03:09:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:16:36Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T03:16:53Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T03:17:21Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:18:26Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:22:45Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:23:08Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T03:23:40Z test1600 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-10T03:24:16Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:26:57Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:27:35Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-10T03:28:24Z drmeister: Does anyone know details of creating callbacks for CFFI? 2016-10-10T03:29:08Z drmeister: I'm trying to understand this in terms of the underlying mechanism should look like. 2016-10-10T03:29:09Z drmeister: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Callbacks.html#Callbacks 2016-10-10T03:29:26Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T03:29:37Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-10T03:29:57Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:29:58Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2016-10-10T03:29:58Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:33:36Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:33:44Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-10T03:33:50Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:33:53Z drmeister: Hi beach 2016-10-10T03:34:54Z lexicall quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T03:36:02Z beach: Any progress on the type inferencer? 2016-10-10T03:36:20Z Einwq quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T03:36:35Z beach: I can't really test it myself at the moment. SICL bootstrapping is not that far along yet. 2016-10-10T03:37:16Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:39:10Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:39:18Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:42:05Z lexicall quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T03:42:25Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:42:41Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:46:37Z lexicall quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T03:50:58Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T03:52:11Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:54:30Z eblocs joined #lisp 2016-10-10T03:58:51Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:02:19Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:02:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T04:02:43Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-10-10T04:03:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:06:57Z lexicall quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T04:07:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-10T04:07:51Z Guest22364 is now known as kushal 2016-10-10T04:08:01Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2016-10-10T04:08:01Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:10:33Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:11:09Z lexicall quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-10T04:13:13Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:13:21Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T04:13:24Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-10T04:17:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:17:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-10T04:17:38Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:19:11Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T04:19:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:22:13Z beach: jasom: From reading the Wikipedia page on random testing, I see that what I am doing has been done before, so there is nothing publishable in there. On the other hand, I also can't see a way of turning this testing technique into some kind of framework. It seems that each case requires very different ways of generating the random operations. 2016-10-10T04:24:05Z pierpa` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T04:24:16Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T04:27:14Z beach: Take Flexichain as an example. In order to get full coverage, there has to be long sequences of INSERT calls and long sequences of DELETE calls. Generating a random sequence of operations would be very unlikely to contain long enough such sequences, so some kind of Markov process needs to be incorporated. 2016-10-10T04:29:22Z beach: I suppose one could imagine a framework based on Markov states and transitions with various probabilities assigned to the transitions, and with associated operations. 2016-10-10T04:32:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:37:59Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-10T04:52:28Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:52:39Z stardiviner quit (Changing host) 2016-10-10T04:52:39Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:54:33Z |3b|: beach: have you seen the tools that take the code into account instead of being completely random? (i think i've usually seen that more in the context of security than normal testing) 2016-10-10T04:57:06Z trebor_home joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:57:14Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:57:15Z |3b|: ah, i guess "fuzz testing" was already discussed, so probably :) 2016-10-10T04:57:24Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:57:30Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-10T04:58:57Z beach: Yes, I looked into fuzz testing. 2016-10-10T04:59:09Z beach: It is not the same as what I am doing. 2016-10-10T04:59:26Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T05:00:53Z |3b| was thinking of the specific case of the one that could generate valid jpegs by modifying the input to exercise different code paths 2016-10-10T05:01:53Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T05:01:59Z |3b| isn't sure how well that ability actually generalizes, since presumably it couldn't for example generate an input that produced a particular sha256 sum, and i have no intuition on where most code fits between those extremes 2016-10-10T05:04:15Z beach: I am specifically interested in testing protocol implementations against some "specification". The specification I use is a slow and simple implementation of the same protocol. 2016-10-10T05:04:17Z flip214: only a matter of computing time. 2016-10-10T05:04:27Z |3b|: and looking into it, someone even mentioned that specific program already, so i guess i'll stop being redundant :) 2016-10-10T05:04:43Z flip214: afl is nice. 2016-10-10T05:07:40Z |3b|: beach: are you thinking of probabilities intentionally specified to exercise the code? 2016-10-10T05:07:50Z m0sfet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T05:08:02Z beach: Yes. 2016-10-10T05:08:28Z beach: Like the probability of ending a chain of INSERTs and starting a chain of DELETEs. 2016-10-10T05:10:12Z beach: Flexichain, for example, can be in one of a large number of possible internal states, depending on the history of operations. It would be impossible to get full coverage by manually enumerating all possibilities. 2016-10-10T05:10:43Z |3b| wonders if it would be easier to specify more of an RLE with random lengths with various types of runs with various interesting statistical properties. from purely random to single repeated op (insert/delete), to alternating, or various patterns 2016-10-10T05:11:20Z beach: Maybe so, yes. 2016-10-10T05:12:52Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:14:20Z Davidbrcz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T05:14:36Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T05:17:52Z yaewa joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:17:52Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:19:01Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T05:19:13Z yaewa quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-10T05:19:31Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:19:40Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:22:15Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-10T05:22:25Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T05:26:18Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T05:27:16Z beach: Time to get to work. 2016-10-10T05:27:21Z beach left #lisp 2016-10-10T05:28:46Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:29:16Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T05:29:19Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:30:50Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:31:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T05:32:22Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:32:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:32:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T05:33:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:33:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:36:47Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-10T05:38:05Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:41:59Z jlarocco quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T05:42:08Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-10T05:42:25Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:45:15Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T05:45:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-10T05:50:32Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T05:52:00Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T05:52:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T05:55:24Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2016-10-10T06:01:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T06:01:28Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T06:02:13Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-10T06:03:00Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-10T06:06:34Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-10T06:08:20Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T06:14:36Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-10T06:19:17Z trebor_home quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T06:21:12Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T06:21:39Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-10T06:25:27Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-10-10T06:26:06Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T06:32:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-10T06:35:16Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-10T06:45:08Z KaliLinuxGR quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T06:46:36Z KaliLinuxGR joined #lisp 2016-10-10T06:52:05Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-10-10T06:59:47Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T07:04:52Z lambda-p joined #lisp 2016-10-10T07:05:58Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T07:07:25Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T07:09:11Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-10T07:09:53Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-10T07:10:05Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T07:10:27Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-10T07:17:13Z titankiller quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T07:17:38Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-10T07:18:28Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-10T07:28:31Z titankiller quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T07:28:37Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T07:28:56Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-10T07:33:41Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-10T07:35:07Z redeemed joined #lisp 2016-10-10T07:35:08Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T07:36:06Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-10T07:40:08Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T07:45:09Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T07:50:26Z KaliLinuxGR quit (Quit: Keep Hacking) 2016-10-10T07:50:51Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-10T07:50:53Z KaliLinuxGR joined #lisp 2016-10-10T07:53:58Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-10T08:00:54Z thortron quit (Quit: ZNC - 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We should expose Minecraft development via ABCL! 2016-10-10T11:03:49Z pipping: (and I'm a bit sceptical of its quality when I see things like https://github.com/cl21/cl21/blob/master/src/stdlib/process.lisp#L28-L29 which are supposed to work "on UNIX" and clearly won't) 2016-10-10T11:05:27Z flip214: easye: on and off.... depends on amount of work for school, etc. (more because of us parents than the kids themselves, but still... ) 2016-10-10T11:05:37Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:05:50Z flip214: pipping: well, basically CL21 sounds like a good idea in some respects, that's why I mention it. 2016-10-10T11:05:52Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:06:01Z easye: But if we taught them how to dev minecraft levels (and make NPC bots!) in s-expr, that would be a big win, right? 2016-10-10T11:06:28Z flip214: and CL21 could just replace cl21.process with UIOP-runprogram or similar and be done in the future 2016-10-10T11:06:42Z flip214: not every nail needs a hammer 2016-10-10T11:07:20Z easye: I'd do it the other way around: UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM is pretty well battle-tested across current implementation dues to pipping's work 2016-10-10T11:07:39Z easye: s/dues/due/ 2016-10-10T11:07:47Z pipping blushes 2016-10-10T11:07:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:08:05Z easye: No need for the blush: it is exciting and vital work, IMHO. 2016-10-10T11:09:09Z easye: It supports Fare's program for "Lisp is an acceptable scripting language", providing an essential component for devops with Lisp: reliable cross-implementation subprocess invocation. 2016-10-10T11:09:09Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:09:25Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T11:09:33Z easye: (that isn't friggin' conditionalized in *your* code, but rather in UIOP. 2016-10-10T11:10:03Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:10:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:10:56Z flip214: yeah, that's why I suggest for CL21 to reuse the (proven) UIOP work. 2016-10-10T11:12:24Z easye: Ah. My misunderstanding. 2016-10-10T11:12:42Z easye goes back to re-read the parts of the channel before he sat down at keyboard. 2016-10-10T11:13:19Z pipping: (I guess instead of criticising CL21 I should be submitting bug reports and writing patches) 2016-10-10T11:13:22Z pipping does that 2016-10-10T11:13:56Z flip214: hooray! more contributions for my kids' future! ;) 2016-10-10T11:15:01Z freedom01 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T11:18:31Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:18:42Z warweasle quit (Quit: Work gets in the way of my life...) 2016-10-10T11:22:02Z JohnMcClain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T11:26:05Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T11:28:20Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-10T11:29:16Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:30:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:31:21Z alexherbo2 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-10T11:36:48Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:41:02Z sjl: oh my god I saw (keep-if (disjoin #'oddp #'zerop) (0.. 10)) and was wondering how they implemented '..' to do a range like that 2016-10-10T11:41:12Z sjl: and now I realize it's actually just a function named '0..' 2016-10-10T11:41:37Z flip214: cool idea... push to alexandria? ;) 2016-10-10T11:41:38Z sjl: I'm not sure whether to be horrified or impressed 2016-10-10T11:41:39Z easye: Cool function name. 2016-10-10T11:41:45Z myrkraverk: Hmm, I guess it's a nice idea to have 0.. function c; 2016-10-10T11:42:02Z Grue`: kinda confusing, but then there are 1+, and especially 1- in the standard 2016-10-10T11:42:17Z easye: The ".." conveys immediately that you are returning a cons. 2016-10-10T11:42:22Z Grue`: 1- is the worst named function ever 2016-10-10T11:42:44Z sjl: I would have used 0... 2016-10-10T11:42:58Z myrkraverk: Grue`: dunno, I kind of like 1- 2016-10-10T11:43:04Z myrkraverk: Since -1 is taken. 2016-10-10T11:43:33Z sjl: I do like clojure's inc and dec for 1+ and 1- 2016-10-10T11:43:39Z myrkraverk: sjl: I might have used that too, so I guess it's ok to defune both 0.. and 0... 2016-10-10T11:43:55Z sjl: yeah 2016-10-10T11:44:08Z sjl: also would be good to make them take an optional step var maybe 2016-10-10T11:44:14Z sjl: (0... 10 2) 2016-10-10T11:44:34Z myrkraverk: I think a keyword would be clearer. 2016-10-10T11:44:41Z sjl: or that 2016-10-10T11:44:45Z myrkraverk: (0... 10 :by 2) or :step-by 2016-10-10T11:44:46Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:45:00Z sjl: I do miss Clojure's multiple-arity-definition function feature thing 2016-10-10T11:45:02Z flip214: myrkraverk: (0... 2 10) 2016-10-10T11:45:03Z jackdaniel: I'd also defun 0.... 0nX etc etc ,þ but seriously, I believe more descriptive name maybe? :) 2016-10-10T11:45:33Z jackdaniel: alexandria:iota maybe? 2016-10-10T11:45:51Z sjl: jackdaniel: https://github.com/cl21/cl21/blob/master/src/core/cons.lisp#L215-218 2016-10-10T11:45:53Z flip214: myrkraverk: (0... -2 -1 10) 2016-10-10T11:45:54Z sjl: they're implemented with ioa 2016-10-10T11:46:22Z sjl: flip214: yeah (0... 2 10) is where I miss clojure's arity definition 2016-10-10T11:46:25Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:46:29Z impaktor joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:46:33Z sjl: cause then you need to define the args of 0... with useless names 2016-10-10T11:46:37Z H4ns: sjl: in clojure, i miss common lisp's argument processing very much. i mostly use different arities in clojure so that i can default arguments, which common lisp's &optional does very well, and more succintly. 2016-10-10T11:46:37Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:47:05Z sjl: in clojure you'd say (defn 0... ([below] ...) ([step below] ...) 2016-10-10T11:47:11Z sjl: so the arglist can have meaningful names 2016-10-10T11:47:30Z flip214: sjl: just use "&rest", and continue the step from (n-2)th to (n-1)th argument up to the nth argument ;) 2016-10-10T11:48:04Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T11:48:43Z easye: It all boils down to CL:DO. 2016-10-10T11:49:31Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:50:01Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T11:50:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T11:51:14Z flip214: in the end, all is just (TAGBODY ... (GO ...)). 2016-10-10T11:51:20Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:51:35Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T11:51:48Z sjl: also unclear whether these functions are inclusive or exclusive 2016-10-10T11:51:54Z sjl: no docstrings :( 2016-10-10T11:51:55Z jackdaniel: in the very end, all is just 00011100101 2016-10-10T11:51:59Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:52:29Z sjl: looks like inclusive from reading the source 2016-10-10T11:52:44Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T11:54:48Z clintm`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T11:56:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T11:57:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-10T11:59:40Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:01:23Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:01:55Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:02:08Z freedom01 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T12:02:25Z moore33: Wot's CL21? 2016-10-10T12:02:57Z freedom010 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:03:12Z loke`: moore33: A silly thing. 2016-10-10T12:07:22Z jackdaniel: moore33: attempt to modernize CL (a lot of syntactic sugar over the current language implemented with help of stuff like reader macros and functions) 2016-10-10T12:07:45Z moore33: Interesting. 2016-10-10T12:07:58Z jackdaniel: I don't like it, but some ideas are interesting 2016-10-10T12:10:25Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:11:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:13:22Z _death: "modernize" = "make it fit my peculiarities" 2016-10-10T12:15:59Z flip214: jackdaniel: I quite like that that the CL21 functions are actually methods 2016-10-10T12:16:07Z flip214: so you can extend CL21:PUSH for your own classes 2016-10-10T12:16:18Z flip214: that's not possible with CL, for example 2016-10-10T12:16:30Z flip214: a few small things like this. 2016-10-10T12:16:53Z jackdaniel: as I said, I can clearly see some interesting ideas there :) 2016-10-10T12:21:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T12:25:09Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T12:25:21Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-10T12:25:26Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:25:54Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T12:25:55Z yaroe joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:26:05Z raydeejay reserves his opinion 2016-10-10T12:27:16Z yaroe: Hello there ! 2016-10-10T12:27:28Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:27:53Z yaroe: I'm interested in the process of bootstraping somme CL code : I have a lib that I want to rewrite with the tools it provide 2016-10-10T12:29:00Z yaroe: I wonder if there is a way to filter MACROEXPAND process so that it stop expansion at a pure Common Lisp state 2016-10-10T12:30:31Z TMA: yaroe: *macroexpand-hook* 2016-10-10T12:31:02Z salva0 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:31:03Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:31:34Z TMA: yaroe: writing the function to put there might be a little tricky though 2016-10-10T12:31:59Z yaroe: OK, I'reading CLHS on it 2016-10-10T12:33:09Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T12:33:30Z Jameser quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-10T12:34:23Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:35:08Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T12:35:36Z freedom010 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T12:35:45Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:36:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T12:36:17Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-10T12:36:17Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:36:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:36:48Z yaroe: *macroexpand-hook* seems to be the vehicle I need, thanks. 2016-10-10T12:36:58Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:37:22Z Jameser quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T12:37:52Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:38:11Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:38:41Z yaroe: The new expander function can be a filter on the 'old' one that discard expansion if it is pure CL macro... I will try that 2016-10-10T12:39:26Z yaroe: Do you know any writing about bootstraping CL lib ? 2016-10-10T12:41:05Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T12:41:37Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:45:27Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:45:59Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:47:03Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T12:47:14Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:48:31Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:48:44Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T12:48:52Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T12:51:31Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:52:24Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T12:53:09Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:53:24Z pipping wonders if the CLHS is clear on what the effect of (fun :key arg1 :key arg2) should be (the point being: you pass the same key twice) 2016-10-10T12:53:30Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T12:54:42Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:55:14Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-10T12:55:15Z raydeejay: you mean for the case where fun has a keyword parameter :key ;-) 2016-10-10T12:55:29Z pipping: yes 2016-10-10T12:55:43Z jdz: pipping: pretty sure it's specified (don't have a reference handy), but it is a pretty common idiom to prepend keyword arguments 2016-10-10T12:56:20Z pipping: so the first occurrence should take precedence 2016-10-10T12:56:24Z jdz: Another thing (i've only found a use case once) is that it's allowed to pass :allow-other-keys t :) 2016-10-10T12:56:29Z jdz: pipping: yes. 2016-10-10T12:57:05Z pipping: makes sense; consistent with alists then, thanks 2016-10-10T12:57:47Z jackdaniel: given it If more than one such argument pair matches, the leftmost argument pair is used. 2016-10-10T12:57:52Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_dad.htm 2016-10-10T12:57:53Z jackdaniel: :) 2016-10-10T12:58:45Z pipping: yay, thanks! 2016-10-10T12:59:27Z loke`: jackdaniel: I had the same page open, but missed that sentence. 2016-10-10T12:59:34Z jdz: That same section also specifies the :allow-other-keys behaviour. 2016-10-10T13:00:01Z loke`: Have any of you _ever_ used :allow-other-keys t? 2016-10-10T13:00:07Z jdz: I have. 2016-10-10T13:00:08Z H4ns has 2016-10-10T13:00:09Z jdz: Once. 2016-10-10T13:00:11Z loke`: Wow 2016-10-10T13:00:25Z jackdaniel either 2016-10-10T13:00:27Z jdz: Might be the same case H4ns is referring to :) 2016-10-10T13:00:51Z H4ns: not entirely unlikely. when i discovered it (i think last year), i was quite pleased. 2016-10-10T13:01:13Z pipping: loke`: portability layers will almost necessarily have that 2016-10-10T13:01:25Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T13:01:42Z moore33: It's useful if a function wants to pass its arguments onto another function without having to strip out irrelevant keyword arguments. 2016-10-10T13:02:46Z jackdaniel: different methods may take different sets of keywords too 2016-10-10T13:03:40Z jackdaniel: scratch that, irrevelant :) 2016-10-10T13:05:11Z jdz: This: https://github.com/jdz/rfc2388/commit/947b45e549f66e7de6d0093035f143c429804506 2016-10-10T13:06:21Z loke`: OK, but has any of you used non-keyword keywords? 2016-10-10T13:06:42Z loke`: Like &key ((foo foo)) 2016-10-10T13:06:45Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T13:07:02Z H4ns thinks doing that would be indicative of rather poor taste 2016-10-10T13:07:15Z H4ns: i have pondered the possibility and rejected it :) 2016-10-10T13:07:38Z moore33: loke`:There is a school of thought that initargs should not be keywords; I'm not there yet :) 2016-10-10T13:07:43Z loke`: H4ns: for what did you pnder that possibility? :-) 2016-10-10T13:07:52Z H4ns: for fun! 2016-10-10T13:07:59Z moore33: loke`:CLOS slot initargs, that is. 2016-10-10T13:08:36Z loke`: moore33: I can understand that argument. (even though I might not agree with it) 2016-10-10T13:08:43Z loke`: H4ns: I agree. It's fun :-) 2016-10-10T13:13:52Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T13:14:49Z beaky: hello 2016-10-10T13:15:26Z beaky: http://ap5.com/ anyone try this ancient lib are there any other like it (relational common-lisp-based dsl) 2016-10-10T13:15:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:16:09Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:17:45Z jdz: > 2016-10-10T13:18:18Z dtst1977[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:19:23Z dtst1977[m] left #lisp 2016-10-10T13:19:51Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:25:25Z rpg: H4ns: Seems like the non-keyword initargs constraint is a no-op if you accept the idea that MAKE-INSTANCE isn't something that clients of your library should be doing ... 2016-10-10T13:25:44Z rpg: I.e., any outsider should be using a constructor that you export, not MAKE-INSTANCE. 2016-10-10T13:27:28Z H4ns: rpg: i would still consider using non-keywords as keyword arguments to be bad taste, and i would consider initargs to be a special form of keyword arguments and thus fall into the same category. 2016-10-10T13:27:49Z H4ns: rpg: but i mean, there is "let over lambda" and people "like" it, so who am i to judge. 2016-10-10T13:27:59Z rpg: H4ns: I agree. I just meant that the argument for using "not-keyword" arguments seems to dissolve. 2016-10-10T13:28:28Z rpg: If you are going to use MAKE-LOCK instead of MAKE-INSTANCE 'FOO:LOCK 2016-10-10T13:28:51Z H4ns: rpg: oh, there was an argument? i've more read it as a "it is possible", but not "it would make sense" 2016-10-10T13:29:17Z loke`: H4ns: But that argument is only valid for API 2016-10-10T13:29:28Z loke`: H4ns: But that argument is only valid for API's where you don't subclass classes. 2016-10-10T13:29:29Z rpg: H4ns: I was referring to moore33's mention of the argument that initargs should not be keywords 2016-10-10T13:30:11Z H4ns: moore33 mentioned that there is such a school, but what is their argument? 2016-10-10T13:35:03Z Xach: I think the rationale is namespacing slot initialization like you namespace symbols, so having private (::) initargs and managing initarg conflicts during inheritance 2016-10-10T13:35:06Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:35:11Z _death: you might want to create a subclass of superclasses that have the same initargs with different meanings.. 2016-10-10T13:35:36Z Xach: A concept that I understand, but that I have never encountered (probably because it looks weird so few people do it?) 2016-10-10T13:35:54Z H4ns: maybe it is also downright overthinking things. 2016-10-10T13:36:30Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T13:36:44Z moore33: rpg: How do you subclass lock if you make users use a constructor? 2016-10-10T13:37:34Z moore33: "How does one subclass LOCK" rather. 2016-10-10T13:37:35Z H4ns: moore33: there is a school of thought that subclassing is not a good mechanism to use for extension. 2016-10-10T13:38:02Z loke`: In CL, I tend to mostly use subclassing for mixins. 2016-10-10T13:39:26Z moore33: loke`: OK, how does a user mixin a class to LOCK? 2016-10-10T13:39:47Z H4ns: change-class to the rescue :) 2016-10-10T13:40:26Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:40:36Z loke`: moore33: the user of a class should know what to use. 2016-10-10T13:40:40Z moore33: I admit I'm being a bit butt-headed here, but I think it's a powerful feature of CLOS to be able easily subclass or add mixins to classes for a program's own purposes. 2016-10-10T13:40:59Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:41:00Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T13:41:04Z yaroe quit (Quit: bye.) 2016-10-10T13:41:22Z loke`: It's rare that you want to yank the class out from user the user's feet, but if you want to do it you have CHANGE-CLASS. I Don't think any other languages has anythoing else like it. 2016-10-10T13:41:26Z moore33: Rather than, e.g., keeping hash tables around to map external objects to a programs own objects. 2016-10-10T13:42:17Z raydeejay: loke`: sounds like a thing Smalltalk would do 2016-10-10T13:42:19Z moore33: Which leaves us with the initial problem with initargs :) 2016-10-10T13:43:05Z rpg: I think there are different cases for mostly "closed" libraries -- you have to get into them to change their behaviors -- and more open libraries (e.g., CL-DOT, which requires us to make our own graph classes to tailor behavior). 2016-10-10T13:43:31Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:43:54Z loke`: raydeejay: Actually, thhining about it I realise that Perl can do it too. 2016-10-10T13:43:57Z Guest26 quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-10T13:44:31Z moore33: loke`:JavaScript too, though there aren't really classes. 2016-10-10T13:44:40Z H4ns: loke`: it "can" "do" "it" because its object system basically sits on top of convention, and it certainly plays in a completely different league, performance wise. 2016-10-10T13:44:56Z loke`: H4ns: Fair enough. 2016-10-10T13:45:08Z loke`: So only ST and CL has it as part of the core language? 2016-10-10T13:46:23Z raydeejay: Python maybe perhaps? 2016-10-10T13:46:41Z raydeejay: Lua? 2016-10-10T13:46:54Z H4ns: i'm pretty sure that ruby has something similar, in that its object system is also based on convention and simple principles. clos is the only object system that i know which has protocols defined to allow safe transition of class instances between classes, including slot conversion and cache invalidation. 2016-10-10T13:47:12Z raydeejay: well, Ruby draws heavily from Smalltalk 2016-10-10T13:48:41Z H4ns: ah, and some light research shows that an instance's class cannot be changed. 2016-10-10T13:49:41Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T13:49:49Z roscoe_t` is now known as roscoe_tw 2016-10-10T13:50:07Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:50:38Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:50:43Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:50:54Z raydeejay: 💣 classes are overrated anyway 2016-10-10T13:52:02Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:52:57Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T13:57:56Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-10T13:58:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-10T13:59:10Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T14:00:13Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:03:59Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T14:04:30Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:16:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:22:02Z Fare: smalltalk doesn't have change-class? 2016-10-10T14:28:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T14:28:37Z oGMo: it does 2016-10-10T14:28:54Z oGMo: ruby did not last i heard though 2016-10-10T14:30:55Z joast joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:36:30Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-10T14:36:43Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:37:51Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:37:53Z otwieracz quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-10T14:37:54Z antoszka quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-10T14:38:39Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:39:37Z flip214: is there some standard way to "convert" a LOOP into an iterator that can be run via a lambda that's returned from the function? 2016-10-10T14:39:46Z mc40 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:40:49Z TeOne joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:40:52Z flip214: ie. move the whole (iterating) body of a LOOP or ITERATE into a lambda, while keeping the init parts outside? 2016-10-10T14:41:57Z mc40 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-10T14:44:41Z Grue`: that seems pretty hard to do with collecting clauses 2016-10-10T14:46:25Z TeOne: ? 2016-10-10T14:46:50Z Grue`: (loop for x across array collect x), what would be the body? 2016-10-10T14:47:46Z flip214: Grue`: (let ((x-i 0)) (lambda () (when (< i (length array) (prog1 (aref array i) (incf i))))) 2016-10-10T14:47:55Z flip214: for example 2016-10-10T14:48:05Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T14:48:29Z Grue`: where is the collecting though? 2016-10-10T14:49:41Z flip214: doesn't collect, it returnesone element after another 2016-10-10T14:49:45Z flip214: *retures 2016-10-10T14:49:47Z flip214: *returns 2016-10-10T14:49:51Z flip214: too high latency here 2016-10-10T14:49:53Z zshlyg: flip214: if you macroexpand your loop form, it could perhaps give you some ideas of how to proceed. 2016-10-10T14:50:02Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:50:28Z flip214: zshlyg: I can convert manually, yes. Is th[D[D[D[D[D"ere some library that does that for me" was my question. 2016-10-10T14:50:30Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-10T14:50:30Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:54:03Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T14:56:31Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:57:08Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:57:46Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-10-10T14:58:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T15:01:09Z ovenpasta quit (Quit: ovenpasta) 2016-10-10T15:02:07Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-10T15:05:31Z TeOne quit 2016-10-10T15:06:59Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-10T15:08:56Z scymtym: flip214: you can use cl-cont with some limitations. something like (let (k) (setf k (lambda () (cont:with-call/cc (loop :for i :to 10 :do (cont:let/cc k* (setf k k*) i))))) (lambda () (funcall k))) 2016-10-10T15:10:05Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T15:15:26Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T15:17:37Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-10T15:18:22Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-10T15:20:05Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T15:20:50Z fnord___ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T15:23:52Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T15:25:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-10T15:27:52Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T15:29:04Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-10T15:32:54Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T15:37:05Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T15:38:53Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-10T15:43:29Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T15:43:36Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-10-10T15:44:59Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-10-10T15:45:18Z hlavaty left #lisp 2016-10-10T15:47:17Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-10T15:48:25Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-10T15:50:54Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_bbib 2016-10-10T15:51:17Z benny_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T15:51:59Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-10T15:53:05Z benny joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:00:48Z shrdlu68: How often do people customize the read table? How is it done safely, without breaking some other functionality? 2016-10-10T16:03:17Z Indecipherable quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T16:03:24Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: take a look at the library "named-readtables" 2016-10-10T16:05:13Z ak5 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-10T16:05:29Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:06:00Z maucar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T16:06:39Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:06:49Z rpg: shrdlu68: The most critical thing is NEVER call a READTABLE function without specifying a value for the optional arguments. 2016-10-10T16:08:13Z shrdlu68: I was thinking of writing a read-table macro for producing a character array given a range notation, such that something like __m...p produces #(#\m #\n #\o #\p). Is this advisable? 2016-10-10T16:09:03Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:11:10Z warweasle_bbib is now known as warweasle 2016-10-10T16:11:32Z shrdlu68: It seems that the thing to do would be to temporarily bind the read-table to some other one which I can then modify, but what if I expect to use this notation everywhere and anywhere? 2016-10-10T16:11:53Z Grue`: why would you need such a thing enough to write a read macro for it? 2016-10-10T16:13:53Z Grue`: I actually use character ranges a lot in my app, but they have thousands of characters so it would be wasteful to create a string of them 2016-10-10T16:14:02Z shrdlu68: Grue`: No reason, this is merely pedagogical; which is why I'm wondering whether it is a safe or sensible thing to do. 2016-10-10T16:15:17Z Grue`: well, it won't format your hard disk, probably, so pretty safe I'd say 2016-10-10T16:16:35Z shrdlu68: Grue`: It would take a phenomenal bug to turn __m...p to a directive that erases my hard drive. 2016-10-10T16:16:40Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:16:53Z shrdlu68: I'd deserve a nobel prize for it. 2016-10-10T16:17:28Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:17:57Z _death: phenomenal bug or copy-paste from a certain c.l.l post :D 2016-10-10T16:18:39Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:19:25Z shrdlu68: Incidentally, standard characters are not required to be contiguous by the spec, so I couldn't just char-code and add/minus to get the range. 2016-10-10T16:19:49Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T16:19:58Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:25:20Z rpg: shrdlu68: I guess the question is whether you would use this reader macro enough for it to be worth the trouble of coding it. 2016-10-10T16:26:58Z shrdlu68: rpg: I suppose not. 2016-10-10T16:30:01Z drmeister: Bike - howdy! 2016-10-10T16:30:15Z drmeister: I upgraded sicl. I've got everything ready to try some type inference. 2016-10-10T16:30:53Z Bike: hi. 2016-10-10T16:31:02Z drmeister: Hey. 2016-10-10T16:31:32Z drmeister: I've set everything up in bclasp so that I can load the cleavir compiler as an ASDF system. 2016-10-10T16:31:46Z drmeister: This way I can run Cleavir without it being the system compiler. 2016-10-10T16:32:12Z Bike: so you can alter it easier and stuff? Nice. 2016-10-10T16:32:23Z drmeister: So now I need to explicitly invoke the type inference engine from within my compiler - correct? 2016-10-10T16:32:28Z drmeister: Yes - exactly. 2016-10-10T16:32:28Z Bike: yeah. 2016-10-10T16:32:33Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T16:32:47Z drmeister: I can make changes and reload the asdf system over and over again. 2016-10-10T16:32:56Z drmeister: For instance: 2016-10-10T16:33:01Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T16:33:13Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/cVCpVbZq/ 2016-10-10T16:33:30Z drmeister: With type inference this should only generate one fixnum test - correct? 2016-10-10T16:34:06Z drmeister: We could move to #clasp if people feel this is off topic for #lisp 2016-10-10T16:36:22Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:37:27Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:37:53Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:38:14Z pipping doesn't mind 2016-10-10T16:38:16Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:39:16Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T16:39:17Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T16:40:48Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:41:58Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:42:32Z Indecipherable quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-10T16:42:46Z jasom: shrdlu68: oh, with regards to reader macros, most of the time people confine themselves to using the # dispatch character, despite the fact that that all of "![]{}?" are specifically reserved for use as reader macros. 2016-10-10T16:43:48Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T16:45:04Z jasom: shrdlu68: also if you are interested in writing a reader macro for didactic purposes, a {} macro that lets one specify hash-table literals seems like a popular one. It's a relatively sane use, requires a small amount of recursive reading, but is easy to implement. 2016-10-10T16:48:15Z shrdlu68: jasom: Cool. 2016-10-10T16:48:36Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T16:49:12Z wz1000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-10T16:51:21Z jasom: shrdlu68: it also allows maximum smugness/condescention towards non-lispers that complain about the lack of such literals. Once you've done it you can say "Well I don't really have a need for such literals, but implementing it is trivial" /s 2016-10-10T16:52:04Z rpg: jasom: That seems like a good use. Is there a canonical version? Does it support test declaration? 2016-10-10T16:52:50Z shrdlu68: jasom: Hehe 2016-10-10T16:54:13Z shrdlu68: jasom: While still working to perfect my sneer. 2016-10-10T16:54:58Z Quadresce: I think implementing {} teaches you a lot about what a literal is and is not 2016-10-10T16:55:17Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T16:55:18Z Quadresce: Arguably, {} or [] aren't literals in, say, Python 2016-10-10T16:55:48Z Quadresce: (They're constructors with nice syntax.) 2016-10-10T16:56:30Z TruePika: hm, I forgot I was idling 2016-10-10T16:57:27Z TruePika: lol whoops and I use the wrong IP for my laptop while setting up my SSH connection to my VM 2016-10-10T16:58:29Z TruePika: well, back to coding 2016-10-10T16:58:59Z antoszka joined #lisp 2016-10-10T16:59:11Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-10T17:00:57Z Olical quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T17:01:35Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:01:36Z mastokley quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-10T17:02:08Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:03:21Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T17:03:32Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:04:36Z jasom: rpg: I don't think there is a canonical version (as usual) supporting test-declaration should be possible by having an odd number of elements or special syntax 2016-10-10T17:05:09Z jasom: rpg: I once saw a version that used #n{...} to specify the test declaration, but I think that is a Bad Idea 2016-10-10T17:05:49Z Xach joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:06:13Z jasom: IIRC it was "no number" for eql and "any number" for equal, so better than having to remember a mapping from integers to tests, but still not nice. 2016-10-10T17:07:26Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T17:09:01Z lucasb joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:12:48Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T17:16:05Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:16:55Z eivarv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T17:16:59Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:17:04Z flip214: can I COERCE a vector to a non-simple array with a fill-pointer? or is :displaced-to the answer? 2016-10-10T17:17:28Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:17:39Z akkad: how hard is it to write a fasl decoder? 2016-10-10T17:17:46Z Grue`: flip214: adjust-array? 2016-10-10T17:17:51Z TruePika: not sure the coerce would work, since what does the fill pointer init to? 2016-10-10T17:17:54Z Bike: akkad: as hard as it is to read the code 2016-10-10T17:18:08Z akkad: so typical asm reading?k 2016-10-10T17:18:12Z flip214: Grue`: ah yes, thanks. 2016-10-10T17:18:31Z akkad: oh read the implementation. gotcha. 2016-10-10T17:18:49Z maucar quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T17:18:51Z Bike: usually it's undocumented and unstable 2016-10-10T17:18:58Z TruePika: think I need to rethink the architecture of ksp-orbital 2016-10-10T17:19:00Z Bike: so i mean, tread with caution 2016-10-10T17:19:02Z akkad: especially on closed ones 2016-10-10T17:19:40Z TruePika: since changing parameters can cause others to change, but some of the changes might not be entirely desired 2016-10-10T17:19:50Z flip214: yeah, (mapcar #'funcall sequence) ;) 2016-10-10T17:20:13Z Bike: on lispworks or something it would be full on reverse engineering. do not recommend 2016-10-10T17:20:33Z TruePika: right now, I'm doing stuff like (setf (periapsis orbit) 7e6), but what orbital parameters should change? 2016-10-10T17:20:52Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:20:57Z TruePika: for stuff like changing ap/pe, the choice is simple, but it gets more complicated with other parameters 2016-10-10T17:21:11Z akkad: is there a typical way used to hide strings from fasls? 2016-10-10T17:21:21Z akkad: obfuscate I guess 2016-10-10T17:21:33Z Bike: i doubt anyone would really obfuscate it 2016-10-10T17:21:47Z Bike: there's just very little reason to have to parse a fasl 2016-10-10T17:23:07Z TruePika: hm, and stuff like specifying what parameters are allowed to change will cause issues with object-oriented access 2016-10-10T17:23:45Z TruePika: e.g. saying to change periapsis by changing eccentricity, well, one form of the orbit representation is position/velocity, where eccentricity isn't _very_ well defined... 2016-10-10T17:24:34Z raydeejay: why would it? just don't set them directly 2016-10-10T17:24:48Z TruePika: maybe read all parameters, but only write to an object which has the parameter 2016-10-10T17:24:48Z raydeejay: in other words, do it the OOP way :) 2016-10-10T17:25:24Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T17:25:30Z akkad: bike: thanks. will just use real encryption for the items tat need to be secured 2016-10-10T17:25:39Z TruePika: raydeejay: the only way to do that write is to first convert the object into a form which uses eccentricity as an element 2016-10-10T17:25:52Z akkad: IDA pro has a lot of trouble with bins generated from lisp implementations it seems. 2016-10-10T17:26:11Z TruePika: akkad: IDA can generally have trouble with optimized code 2016-10-10T17:26:17Z TruePika: what impl? 2016-10-10T17:26:51Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T17:26:58Z akkad: TruePika: lw/acl so far. 2016-10-10T17:26:59Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-10T17:27:04Z akkad: have not tried ccl/sbcl 2016-10-10T17:27:08Z TruePika: welp, I guess I need to rethink the entire file structure now 2016-10-10T17:27:18Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:27:31Z TruePika: akkad: yeah ccl/sbcl will be a nightmare, if you thought lw/acl was bad 2016-10-10T17:28:10Z TruePika: at least, I'm presuming. I haven't actually disassembled Lisp code aside from with DISASSEMBLE 2016-10-10T17:29:06Z TruePika: but IDA doesn't like some optimizations, and Hex-rays (if you're using that) will have an absolute fit 2016-10-10T17:31:03Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-10T17:31:17Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T17:42:18Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:42:47Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:42:47Z cpc26 quit (Changing host) 2016-10-10T17:42:47Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:45:55Z praisethemoon joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:47:43Z TruePika: whee. time to read some c# code on wii u 2016-10-10T17:48:19Z TruePika: ... 2016-10-10T17:48:28Z TruePika: this doesn't even have what I need :( 2016-10-10T17:49:45Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:50:26Z TruePika: and ofc I have KSP busy with a rover right now, so I can't exactly test orbital mechanics 2016-10-10T17:53:11Z TruePika: ...in fact, what is "angle to prograde" even supposed to _mean_? 2016-10-10T17:54:48Z TMA: akkad: at least some ccl fasls have embedded source code (I was able to recover my source file from a ccl fasl, I have lost top level comments though. 2016-10-10T17:55:36Z Th30n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T17:55:45Z Th30n_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T17:55:47Z flip214: TruePika: perhaps the inclination is meant? 2016-10-10T17:56:34Z TruePika: flip214: inclination is a seperate value; pulling from my rover's current orbital state (not that it's in orbit), angle to prograde is 237.75 degrees, inclination is around 140 2016-10-10T17:57:00Z TruePika: trying to dig into MechJeb's source to find out how it calculates it 2016-10-10T17:57:57Z dwrngr: If i had to guess i'd think it is like angle-of-attack? 2016-10-10T17:58:37Z TruePika: vessel orientation doesn't apply 2016-10-10T17:58:49Z dwrngr: ohh :\ 2016-10-10T17:59:10Z TruePika: it might be some angle wrt the prograde vector of the _parent_, though that doesn't make sense with the sun... 2016-10-10T17:59:57Z TruePika: well here's something, VesselState.cs:555 2016-10-10T18:00:12Z tessier joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:00:53Z TruePika: angleToPrograde = MuUtils.ClampDegrees360((((vessel.orbit.inclination > 90) || (vessel.orbit.inclination < -90)) ? 1 : -1) * ((Vector3)up).AngleInPlane(plUp, delta)); 2016-10-10T18:01:22Z TruePika: ...and now I'm worried that it _does_ deal with orientation and is thus completly irrelevant 2016-10-10T18:02:52Z TruePika: oh good `up` is the direction away from the parent, `plUp` is probably the plane perpendicular to `up` 2016-10-10T18:03:05Z gorfin joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:03:14Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:03:25Z gorfin: #lispcafe 2016-10-10T18:03:59Z tessier_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T18:06:06Z TruePika: yeah, this is _slightly_ complicated... 2016-10-10T18:06:30Z TruePika: especially since it does indeed appear to refer to the parent body 2016-10-10T18:07:00Z TruePika: `plUp` is up for the parent body, i.e. makes no sense around the sun (which is cased around) 2016-10-10T18:07:46Z TruePika: don't think it's possible for me to work on this code in my current environment... 2016-10-10T18:09:24Z TruePika: and I really don't want to work on my other project right now...rewriting my huge database-driven system(? more like mess of code) so that I can save-core-and-die 2016-10-10T18:09:32Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:09:39Z feekoos joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:09:42Z TruePika: or save-lisp-and-die, or whatever it is 2016-10-10T18:09:49Z TruePika: write a core image 2016-10-10T18:09:50Z Th30n_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T18:10:39Z TruePika: the problem _there_ is that database connections don't exactly persist across save/load, so everything breaks, so I need to use the SBCL hooks for that 2016-10-10T18:11:37Z TruePika: the codebase itself is a nightmare to work with, with hacks that "sort of work" all over the place 2016-10-10T18:14:12Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:15:37Z pierpa: TruePika: are you doing this for learning, or because you need the result? 2016-10-10T18:16:53Z gorfin is now known as {gm} 2016-10-10T18:17:23Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:17:25Z TruePika: pierpa: the orbital mechanics or the database? 2016-10-10T18:17:36Z pierpa: the orbits 2016-10-10T18:17:42Z TruePika: Kerbal Space Program 2016-10-10T18:17:50Z pierpa: what is it? 2016-10-10T18:17:57Z sjl: video game 2016-10-10T18:18:03Z pierpa: aha! 2016-10-10T18:18:04Z pierpa: ok 2016-10-10T18:19:12Z pierpa: looks fun 2016-10-10T18:19:24Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T18:19:24Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T18:19:47Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-10T18:20:18Z pjb: sjl: I object to the term "game" for realistic simulators. 2016-10-10T18:20:37Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:20:41Z TruePika: pjb: the devs have maintained that it is a game first, and simulator second, fwiw 2016-10-10T18:20:46Z pjb: TruePika: it's a subuniverse. Soon to become your universe, once we resolve the brain-to-machine interface. 2016-10-10T18:21:01Z pjb: Well life is a game! :-) 2016-10-10T18:21:20Z TruePika: pjb: lol Conway 2016-10-10T18:21:56Z flip214: ain't that more Top Gun or something? 2016-10-10T18:22:20Z flip214: sorry about the non-CS-reference ;P 2016-10-10T18:23:04Z TruePika: well, looks like it's time to pull out Newton's method 2016-10-10T18:23:09Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T18:24:26Z Sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T18:24:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T18:25:56Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:26:55Z dwrngr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T18:27:01Z mvilleneuve left #lisp 2016-10-10T18:27:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:28:13Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-10T18:28:13Z flip214: throw it as far as possible? 2016-10-10T18:28:23Z TruePika: flip214: I wish 2016-10-10T18:28:29Z flip214: let it fall on somebodys head? 2016-10-10T18:28:29Z raydeejay: sit under a tree until the solution hits you in the head 2016-10-10T18:28:37Z raydeejay: then have supper with the Doctor 2016-10-10T18:28:59Z flip214: no, wasn't that galileo? 2016-10-10T18:29:29Z flip214: never mind, but you definitely need to shout "EUREKA" when you think you've done something worthwhile 2016-10-10T18:29:47Z raydeejay: nevermind that it means "this water is too hot!"? 2016-10-10T18:30:02Z TruePika: raydeejay: LOL 2016-10-10T18:30:16Z TruePika: that's an interesting spin on the old tale 2016-10-10T18:30:18Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:30:29Z eschatologist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T18:32:55Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:34:57Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T18:35:10Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:37:27Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-10T18:42:45Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T18:44:09Z pipping: rpg: freebsd-11 was just released. once that becomes available on one of the VPSs that I use, I do some asdf testing there. 2016-10-10T18:44:14Z TruePika: well, this isn't working quite yet 2016-10-10T18:44:20Z TruePika: got a division by zero somewhere 2016-10-10T18:45:46Z TruePika: oh joy, in my initial approximation 2016-10-10T18:46:04Z rpg: pipping: neat! 2016-10-10T18:48:17Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:48:51Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:50:52Z {gm} quit (Quit: {gm}) 2016-10-10T18:54:52Z i_o joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:54:56Z i_o: hei 2016-10-10T18:55:19Z i_o: anybody know a book or something with exercises to learn this? 2016-10-10T18:55:55Z TruePika: I've just been using problems I needed solved as "exercises" 2016-10-10T18:55:57Z dwchandler: i_o: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2016-10-10T18:56:12Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T18:56:19Z TruePika: dwchandler: IIRC that lacks exercises, but I don't remember for sure 2016-10-10T18:56:42Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:56:42Z TruePika: good suggestion in any case, I'd have suggested it 2016-10-10T18:57:24Z i_o: something for beginners 2016-10-10T18:57:43Z TruePika: i_o: beginners in Lisp or beginners in programming in general? 2016-10-10T18:58:04Z TruePika: that ebook works for beginners in Lisp, it's where I learned 2016-10-10T18:58:29Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-10T18:58:29Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-10T18:58:34Z TruePika: I can't really say about beginners in general programming, though, since I have quite a history 2016-10-10T18:58:49Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-10-10T18:58:53Z dwchandler: for beginners to programming: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2016-10-10T18:59:14Z TruePika: having done textual programming since between 5th and 6th grades 2016-10-10T18:59:20Z dwchandler: I can't say much about that one, since I haven't read it and I'm not new to programming 2016-10-10T18:59:21Z TruePika: (summer 2005) 2016-10-10T18:59:24Z rpg: dwchandler: is that Touretzky's book? 2016-10-10T18:59:33Z dwchandler: rpg: yes 2016-10-10T18:59:40Z rpg: It's aged pretty badly, IMO. 2016-10-10T19:00:33Z i_o: what's the postscript for? is it compilable with latex? 2016-10-10T19:00:34Z rpg: Do you think Lamkins's book would be better? 2016-10-10T19:00:56Z TruePika: i_o: postscript .ps would be Ghostscript, I believe 2016-10-10T19:01:06Z TruePika: not LaTeX 2016-10-10T19:01:29Z TruePika: though there is probably a way to convert Postscript to TeX 2016-10-10T19:01:32Z i_o: how to open it? 2016-10-10T19:01:42Z TMA: i_o: HTDP (how to design programs) and SICP (Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs) are two beginner books I am fond of (though the language's scheme, not common lisp) 2016-10-10T19:01:57Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T19:02:06Z rpg: Probably easiest way to open postscript document would be to translate to pdf. 2016-10-10T19:02:06Z TruePika: i_o: what file extension? .ps? 2016-10-10T19:02:32Z TruePika: I have a ps2pdf binary sitting on my server box; that simple conversion has tools already 2016-10-10T19:02:51Z rpg: On a Mac, Preview will auto-convert ps to pdf 2016-10-10T19:02:53Z TruePika: many PDF viewers can also open Postscript 2016-10-10T19:03:16Z TruePika: rpg: on Linux 2016-10-10T19:03:51Z TruePika: i_o: IIRC evince works with .ps 2016-10-10T19:04:00Z TruePika: though I can't be certain 2016-10-10T19:05:03Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:05:28Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:06:34Z TruePika: oh ffs my rover almost killed itself in a crater, brb setting new waypoints 2016-10-10T19:07:59Z warweasle quit (Quit: brb) 2016-10-10T19:08:06Z i_o: TMA: would reccomend those? 2016-10-10T19:08:48Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:09:37Z TruePika: okay, got intermediate waypoints for the next hour set up, should be good until then 2016-10-10T19:09:46Z TMA: i_o: on the other hand, it depends on how beginner you are. If you are totally unaccustomed to abstract thinking they might be a bit dense at first 2016-10-10T19:10:28Z TruePika: I'm right now torn about if Lisp should be suggested as a beginner's language 2016-10-10T19:10:54Z TruePika: on one hand, it is great, but on the other, the literature might be lacking because the industry sadly doesn't focus on it anymore 2016-10-10T19:11:32Z rpg: TruePika: For beginners, Racket (Scheme dialect) seems to be a good choice 2016-10-10T19:11:35Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-10T19:11:52Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:11:54Z TruePika: which I don't really understand, since the only anectdote I've read about it was the JPL one where the issue with Lisp was actually an issue with C 2016-10-10T19:12:03Z rpg: It's not clear to me any programming-in-the-large language (ML, Java, CL) should be taught to beginners 2016-10-10T19:12:31Z TruePika: My first _textual_ programming language was NQC, which is a C variant 2016-10-10T19:12:58Z pipping: rpg: is there a way to skip the compilation step in the ASDF test suite and `load` directly? 2016-10-10T19:12:59Z TruePika: (my first programming language was more of a scripting language, with the old Lego Mindstorms RCX unit) 2016-10-10T19:13:00Z TMA: TruePika: it depends. if you want "practicality" after one hour of study, lisp is not the right language. ("practicality" is defined as "can trick a business school graduate manager into thinking that the person can program") 2016-10-10T19:13:14Z TruePika: TMA: LOL 2016-10-10T19:13:29Z pipping: rpg: I believe that would speed up testing with ABCL by orders of magnitude, which would be convenient because I sometimes need to run the same test many times 2016-10-10T19:13:41Z TruePika: I'm just glad I don't need to learn how to program again 2016-10-10T19:14:34Z TruePika: Pierce College ((the local community college over here)) at least _was_ teaching VB as the introduction to programming course, there were plans to switch to Python 2016-10-10T19:14:52Z TruePika: (I didn't take that course, since I already knew a great deal about programming) 2016-10-10T19:15:50Z TruePika: but, I mean, VB is pretty much a joke 2016-10-10T19:16:19Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:16:27Z TruePika: I know, in retrospect; it used to be my primary language (before I took up Perl) 2016-10-10T19:16:34Z rpg: pipping: I will have to check. 2016-10-10T19:16:40Z TMA: I think it was fashionable in the late nineties 2016-10-10T19:16:46Z rpg: I'm not entirely sure what goes on in there. 2016-10-10T19:16:56Z TruePika: the big problem with VB is that it is pretty much not cross-platform 2016-10-10T19:17:13Z pipping: rpg: not the only feature the asdf test suite has in common with salami ;) 2016-10-10T19:17:15Z TruePika: that wasn't a problem for me at all until I got my Linux box set up 2016-10-10T19:17:37Z TruePika: I knew a _bit_ of C/C++, but not enough to really do much 2016-10-10T19:17:53Z TruePika: more reading than writing 2016-10-10T19:18:16Z TruePika: there was also one point when I coded in a dialect of Logo, but those days are long past 2016-10-10T19:18:24Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T19:18:48Z TruePika: nowadays, my main language is Lisp 2016-10-10T19:18:52Z TruePika: and it's great 2016-10-10T19:19:07Z rpg: pipping: and you know what they say about not looking at what goes on in a sausage factory. 2016-10-10T19:19:47Z rpg: I'm in the middle of writing something now, and can't change context to reading ASDF code, but I will try to check later. I'll email you my response, in case you have gone to bed. 2016-10-10T19:20:02Z pipping: rpg: thanks! 2016-10-10T19:21:29Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T19:21:38Z pipping finds it rather annoying that (with-open-file (dummy filename)) with an empty body gives an unused variable warning for the dummy on some CL implementations but not others 2016-10-10T19:22:33Z TruePika: pipping: can you not put a (declare (ignore dummy)) as the otherwise-empty body? 2016-10-10T19:22:48Z TruePika: ...though that might not even suppress the warning 2016-10-10T19:22:49Z rpg: pipping: conjecture - the makefile doesn't compile ASDF, just assembles asdf.lisp out of pieces. The test script doesn't know if it's running more than one test, so it simply compiles always. 2016-10-10T19:23:07Z pipping: TruePika: yes, that's what I do. And having to do that is exactly what I'm complaining about :P 2016-10-10T19:23:14Z TruePika: lol 2016-10-10T19:23:46Z TruePika: well, why are you using an empty body? Are you just touching the file or something? 2016-10-10T19:23:59Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-10T19:24:35Z pipping: TruePika: my use-case is rather atypical 2016-10-10T19:25:13Z TruePika: heh, sounds like a few of _my_ use-cases (and therefore hacks in my huge DB system thing) 2016-10-10T19:25:29Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:25:37Z ggole quit 2016-10-10T19:27:36Z TruePika: lol I just switched to tty1, apparently the Linux distro my terminal currently is has an X server 2016-10-10T19:27:37Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:27:56Z TruePika: lol because the machine doesn't have enough memory to build SBCL 2016-10-10T19:28:10Z TruePika: (the machine being a Wii) 2016-10-10T19:29:03Z raydeejay: it has <100Mb xD 2016-10-10T19:30:22Z TruePika: 76204k total, 72708k used, 3496k free 2016-10-10T19:30:39Z TruePika: -- running 2 SSH client sessions 2016-10-10T19:30:39Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T19:30:55Z TruePika: both taking 3.4% memory 2016-10-10T19:31:14Z TruePika: then three bash sessions with 2.6% each, etc. 2016-10-10T19:31:17Z pipping: rpg: right, of course. I'm not arguing that we should be changing the defaults. It'd just be nice if the makefile had an option "I know better than make and really want to load and not compile-and-load" 2016-10-10T19:31:38Z rpg: The problem is that it's not make, it's run-tests.sh. 2016-10-10T19:31:41Z raydeejay: TruePika: plug a hard drive and use it as swap? xD 2016-10-10T19:31:58Z rpg: I think what that should do is use load for every test after the first, and use compile-and-load on the first. 2016-10-10T19:32:01Z TruePika: raydeejay: that's what I was thinking of doing eventually, not going to use the SD card as swap 2016-10-10T19:32:16Z TruePika: and not even touching the NAND 2016-10-10T19:32:21Z pipping: rpg: oh, but that is what's happening 2016-10-10T19:32:31Z pipping: rpg: asdf is only compiled once. but once is too many 2016-10-10T19:32:57Z pipping: rpg: because e.g. with abcl loading asdf is doable in okay time but compiling it takes *long* 2016-10-10T19:33:02Z rpg: Only compiled once over the 63(?) tests? 2016-10-10T19:33:03Z pipping: rpg: and don't get me started on clasp 2016-10-10T19:33:16Z raydeejay gets pipping started on clasp 2016-10-10T19:33:23Z raydeejay: oops 2016-10-10T19:33:37Z pipping: yes, asdf.lisp is only compiled once. the tests are also compiled but that takes considerably less long 2016-10-10T19:33:52Z pipping: or at least I think they are, not sure tbh 2016-10-10T19:34:22Z TruePika: I'm sure there's a test which tests what happens when a build takes a very long time to complete 2016-10-10T19:35:26Z rpg: pipping: OK, yes, I can see that now. 2016-10-10T19:35:28Z pipping: rpg: basically, what I see is: If I use `make t l=abcl t=just-a-single-test.script` repeatedly: 2016-10-10T19:35:43Z pipping: - if I touched the test, it takes a bit 2016-10-10T19:35:53Z pipping: - if I touched ASDF/UIOP itself, it takes *long* 2016-10-10T19:36:31Z rpg: but you can't want to run with a stale FASL, can you? 2016-10-10T19:36:45Z TruePika: ^ 2016-10-10T19:37:11Z TruePika: pipping: so that's why you want to load and not compile-and-load? 2016-10-10T19:37:22Z pipping: TruePika: yes 2016-10-10T19:37:36Z pipping: rpg: right, loading would prefer the fasl if there were one 2016-10-10T19:37:39Z TruePika: makes sense 2016-10-10T19:37:55Z rpg: Actually, I'm looking at this, and if we run the ASDF tests twice on ABCL and asdf.lisp hasn't changed, then MAYBE-COMPILE-ASDF should not recompile. Maybe there's a bug in MAYBE-COMPILE-LISP in script-support.lisp? 2016-10-10T19:37:57Z pipping: rpg: but that's not an issue for me because I typically call `git clean -fdx` between test runs 2016-10-10T19:38:34Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:38:55Z TruePika: pipping: nice git command to know about, thanks 2016-10-10T19:39:03Z pipping: rpg: no, that's not it: I /did/ change ASDF 2016-10-10T19:39:07Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:39:14Z pipping: rpg: the fact that the build system recompiles it is correct 2016-10-10T19:39:29Z pipping: rpg: I just don't want to compile it all. I want to load it. 2016-10-10T19:39:54Z rpg: pipping: you mean on abcl, you'd rather just load the .lisp file? 2016-10-10T19:39:58Z pipping: rpg: (for e.g. sbcl this wouldn't make a big difference but for ecl/mkcl/abcl/clasp it makes a big difference in performance) 2016-10-10T19:40:03Z pipping: rpg: yes! 2016-10-10T19:40:10Z rpg: oho! 2016-10-10T19:40:32Z TruePika isn't sure asdf was meant to work that way... 2016-10-10T19:40:57Z TruePika: I mean, it's a sensible use case, but maybe not one that was considered at the time 2016-10-10T19:40:57Z pipping: TruePika: asdf isn't. But we're talking about the test suite of asdf 2016-10-10T19:41:27Z rpg: There's LOAD-ASDF-LISP in script-support, but I don't know how easy it would be to modify run-tests.sh to make this an option. I suppose just another command line argument.... 2016-10-10T19:41:28Z pipping: TruePika: and the way to "build asdf" is to concatenate all the source files, create a single lisp file from it, and then compile-and-load it 2016-10-10T19:41:41Z pipping: TruePika: so I basically just want to turn the last part of that into a plain "load" 2016-10-10T19:41:45Z TruePika: all the source files including the test suite? 2016-10-10T19:42:17Z pipping: TruePika: no, not those. But I think(?) that those are treated separately 2016-10-10T19:42:44Z TruePika: or wait, I think I understand somewhat 2016-10-10T19:43:27Z pipping: rpg: Alright. if I'm going to be the sole user of this option I should also be the one that makes the cow dance. Thanks for the pointers! 2016-10-10T19:43:43Z eschatologist quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-10-10T19:43:59Z rpg: pipping: If I can help, LMK. 2016-10-10T19:44:59Z rpg: Just modify the getopts stuff in the shell script, and then you need to modify what happens in do_tests and I think you will be good. 2016-10-10T19:45:01Z TruePika: meh, time to translate the orbital parameters into position and velocity 2016-10-10T19:46:55Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:47:03Z i_o: excluding utterly pointless 'hello world', what are some exercises ranking easy to moderate? (difficult for later on) 2016-10-10T19:48:45Z klltkr quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-10T19:49:01Z lucasb: i_o: I found lisp koans very nice... but I only did a few 2016-10-10T19:49:24Z lucasb: i_o: https://github.com/google/lisp-koans 2016-10-10T19:49:36Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:49:36Z i_o: thanks 2016-10-10T19:50:23Z i_o: answering earlier, I don't recall how, but lisp intrigued me from long time ago. 2016-10-10T19:51:15Z i_o: more from the conceptual point of view than the practical. I think is the only language other than C that was designed and used from Hardware to compiler to language. 2016-10-10T19:51:27Z i_o: lisp machine history is quite fascinating 2016-10-10T19:51:53Z i_o: the concept of live debugging is somewhat crazy. 2016-10-10T19:52:11Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-10T19:52:43Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-10T19:53:52Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T19:54:31Z mordocai: Somewhat crazy awesome 2016-10-10T19:55:11Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-10T19:57:25Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T19:58:13Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-10T20:00:23Z malice joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:00:59Z ktt9 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:01:03Z impaktor left #lisp 2016-10-10T20:05:30Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:05:32Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T20:07:56Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:08:09Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T20:10:45Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T20:11:11Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:11:33Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T20:15:04Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:18:23Z gsm joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:19:46Z phoe: I use some of that history nowadays when debugging threads 2016-10-10T20:20:52Z phoe: basically wrap a thread in a function-restarting handler and boom, I can debug my stuff as it's running 2016-10-10T20:22:24Z phoe: but yeah, it's crazy when you find out that most* of the debugging nowadays is post-mortem 2016-10-10T20:22:32Z phoe: *like, uh, almost all? 2016-10-10T20:22:46Z phoe: and lisp machines had a much more interactive approach. 2016-10-10T20:24:22Z {gsm} joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:24:22Z gsm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T20:26:15Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-10T20:26:51Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:26:53Z gmareske is now known as {gm} 2016-10-10T20:28:03Z {gm} is now known as gsm 2016-10-10T20:28:16Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:30:21Z {gsm} quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-10-10T20:30:31Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:32:34Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:38:47Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T20:40:00Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:40:09Z feekoos left #lisp 2016-10-10T20:43:58Z ChoHag_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:44:15Z ChoHag_: What's the shortest route from machine-code/assembly to lisp? 2016-10-10T20:44:58Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T20:45:18Z TruePika: What's the ASM from? 2016-10-10T20:45:28Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-10T20:45:28Z ChoHag_: Whatever. 2016-10-10T20:45:40Z ChoHag_: The mythical perfect assembly language. 2016-10-10T20:45:53Z TruePika: In general, it is probably best to just rewrite the code based off the assembly 2016-10-10T20:46:20Z TruePika: there would be slightly better luck if the ASM was generated from Lisp code in the first place 2016-10-10T20:46:26Z ChoHag_: I'm slightly drunk and trying to think in abstract terms. I'm not trying to do anything in particular. 2016-10-10T20:47:28Z i_o: TruePika: I just noticed that you had TCP me. Why? 2016-10-10T20:47:40Z ChoHag_: Assembly is, more or less, sequential. 2016-10-10T20:47:45Z ChoHag_: Lisp is, more or less, not. 2016-10-10T20:48:02Z ChoHag_: That's like, crazy man! 2016-10-10T20:48:16Z ChoHag_: But with sobriety. 2016-10-10T20:48:19Z TruePika: i_o: CTCP actually, it was to get the version information string from your IRC client to identify your operating system 2016-10-10T20:48:29Z TruePika: /ctcp version 2016-10-10T20:48:47Z ChoHag_: TruePika: Why aren't I special enough? 2016-10-10T20:48:47Z TruePika: though you won't get useful info from that out of me 2016-10-10T20:49:11Z TruePika: ChoHag_: it was a while back, when i_o was asking about how to view a .ps file 2016-10-10T20:49:26Z ChoHag_: Ah. 2016-10-10T20:49:43Z H4ns: please continue with that interesting discussion! 2016-10-10T20:49:55Z i_o: TruePika: interesting, then the OS you got isn't really my OS. lol. 2016-10-10T20:50:07Z ChoHag_: If you don't know, your linux can "see $file.ps". If you know, you know. 2016-10-10T20:50:12Z ChoHag_: That's about all there is to it. 2016-10-10T20:50:16Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:50:38Z ChoHag_: Or possibly view. Because why have 1 option when you can have 2? 2016-10-10T20:51:07Z mateuszb joined #lisp 2016-10-10T20:51:27Z TruePika: ChoHag_: `cat`, but the issue was actually rendering the postscript source code 2016-10-10T20:51:49Z i_o: what generates .ps files? 2016-10-10T20:51:58Z TruePika: i_o: almost anything 2016-10-10T20:52:10Z i_o: I'd say .tex would've been more useful 2016-10-10T20:52:16Z TruePika: usually as an intermediate step to printing 2016-10-10T20:52:49Z TruePika: e.g. in Vim, `:ha > foo.ps` prints to file, in postscript 2016-10-10T20:52:52Z pipping: pretty deep in #lispcafe land by now, far off the coast of topic island 2016-10-10T20:52:53Z ChoHag_: Right well if no-one's going to go on a drug/alcohol-induced bullshitting binge about abstract ideas in programming I'm going to go outside and do so with myself and another batch of this rather excellent weed+wine. 2016-10-10T20:53:00Z TruePika: versus `:ha` which prints to default printer 2016-10-10T20:53:06Z ChoHag_: Well the weed is excellent. The wine's meh but I'm drunk enough. 2016-10-10T20:53:29Z ChoHag_: But seriously, I'd like to know, both now and tomorrow, what's the "fundemantal" difference between lisp and assembly. 2016-10-10T20:53:34Z ChoHag_: FSVO fundamental. 2016-10-10T20:53:48Z TruePika: ChoHag_: ASM is low-level, Lisp is high-level...ish 2016-10-10T20:54:07Z ChoHag_: That's .... enlightening. 2016-10-10T20:54:10Z dwchandler: ASM is unportable C ;-) 2016-10-10T20:54:15Z ChoHag_: :P 2016-10-10T20:54:32Z ChoHag_: dwchandler: Then in your conceptual landscape, s/ASM/C/g 2016-10-10T20:54:41Z TruePika: low-level languages can be more easily converted between than high-level languages, or a low-level to a high-level 2016-10-10T20:54:48Z dwchandler: lisp is homoiconic 2016-10-10T20:55:21Z ChoHag_: dwchandler: A new word. Thanks! 2016-10-10T20:55:23Z TruePika: it is hard to automatically convert any code to a high-level language, because they allow for a large number of different ways to do the same task 2016-10-10T20:56:03Z ChoHag_: TruePika: More or less. But perl and python both have *an* AST. 2016-10-10T20:56:09Z TruePika: maybe it could be said that in a high-level language, you're saying what you want done, while in a low-level language, you're saying how to do it 2016-10-10T20:56:17Z ChoHag_: Despite being worlds apart. 2016-10-10T20:56:41Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T20:58:40Z dwchandler: TruePika: Are you saying that it's hard to convert from a low-level language to a high-level language? If so, I disagree. 2016-10-10T20:59:33Z dwchandler: For instance, many compilers have an intermediate representation that is a low level language, which is then used to generate output 2016-10-10T20:59:33Z TruePika: dwchandler: automatically, in a way that the HLL compiles back to the LLL 2016-10-10T20:59:59Z TruePika: where the LLL isn't generated from the same HLL 2016-10-10T21:00:25Z TruePika: e.g. VB -> ASM -> Lisp 2016-10-10T21:00:40Z TruePika: or Java -> Bytecode -> C++ 2016-10-10T21:00:51Z TruePika: ...though C++ is a low-level language 2016-10-10T21:00:56Z TruePika: _technically_ 2016-10-10T21:01:06Z TruePika: higher-level than Java bytecode, though 2016-10-10T21:01:14Z dwchandler: ocaml -> bytecode -> javascript? 2016-10-10T21:01:43Z dwchandler: anyway, I get your point now :) 2016-10-10T21:01:44Z TruePika: Note, just so everyone's clear on everything: Java != Javascript 2016-10-10T21:01:49Z oGMo: compiling to a high level language doesn't count :P 2016-10-10T21:01:58Z TruePika: (since there's always one person who thinks they're the same thing) 2016-10-10T21:02:13Z oGMo: it's 2016, i'm pretty sure they don't 2016-10-10T21:02:20Z TruePika: oGMo: you'd be surprised 2016-10-10T21:02:42Z oGMo: not in #lisp, which is, incidentally, about (common) lisp :P 2016-10-10T21:02:56Z TruePika: though, they're also generally the same people who think HTML/XML are programming languages 2016-10-10T21:03:32Z TruePika: oGMo: just covering bases, since you'd never know 2016-10-10T21:03:34Z oGMo: you can compile to anything; if you want to _decompile_ to something and produce readable code you have a harder, but not very hard, task 2016-10-10T21:03:55Z TruePika: even though Lisp nowadays is pretty much reserved for the knowledgeable programmers 2016-10-10T21:04:07Z oGMo: not really heh 2016-10-10T21:04:35Z TruePika: oGMo: it can still be hard, especially if the compiled code is optimized in that place 2016-10-10T21:04:55Z TruePika: e.g. C++ -> ASM -> (optimizer) 2016-10-10T21:05:44Z oGMo: how is any of this relevant again 2016-10-10T21:05:49Z TruePika: My statement about Lisp nowadays is because very few parts of the industry seem to even use Lisp now, for some strange reason... 2016-10-10T21:05:49Z schjetne: TruePika: I can see how HTML/XML can be considered programming languages 2016-10-10T21:06:03Z H4ns: oGMo: it is not. 2016-10-10T21:06:11Z TruePika: schjetne: they are technically markup languages; there is no control flow 2016-10-10T21:06:59Z schjetne: Even though people usually mean Turing-complete lanugages I'm not sure I'm ready to categorically exclude them 2016-10-10T21:07:22Z gsm quit (Quit: gsm) 2016-10-10T21:07:38Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T21:08:22Z madbub quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T21:11:18Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-10T21:12:07Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:14:45Z i_o: mark up languages can't perform operations 2016-10-10T21:14:59Z i_o: html can make a calculator for instance 2016-10-10T21:15:14Z ChoHag_: TruePika: Lisp isn't used because lisp is hard to understand because "computers are hard therefore programming is hard". 2016-10-10T21:15:24Z ChoHag_: Clever people don't understand simple things. 2016-10-10T21:15:36Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:16:11Z TruePika: I can't remember, is there a function to do degrees<->radians conversion in :common-lisp? 2016-10-10T21:16:36Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T21:17:56Z ChoHag_: Some bland combination of +, -, × or ÷? 2016-10-10T21:18:43Z TruePika: I mean besides that 2016-10-10T21:18:49Z TruePika: ...and it's * and / 2016-10-10T21:18:56Z ChoHag_: They look ugly. 2016-10-10T21:19:08Z TruePika: not x and what I think is the digraph -:? not on this term 2016-10-10T21:19:22Z TruePika: no, I mean the functions are called * and / 2016-10-10T21:19:31Z ChoHag_: In ugly languages they are. 2016-10-10T21:19:32Z TruePika: e.g. (* 2 3) or (/ 4 2) 2016-10-10T21:19:36Z TruePika: ... 2016-10-10T21:20:01Z ChoHag_: In beautiful languages they look like you'd draw a multiplication-or-x-marks-the-spot X and a divided-by-symbol. 2016-10-10T21:20:01Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T21:20:01Z schjetne: TruePika: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_pi.htm 2016-10-10T21:20:13Z TruePika: what, do you (defun x (&rest args) (apply #'* args)) ? 2016-10-10T21:20:15Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-10T21:20:35Z ChoHag_: I don't usually write in lisp unless emacs is really pissing me off. 2016-10-10T21:20:37Z TruePika: schjetne: I know about pi, I'm doing that route instead 2016-10-10T21:20:46Z ChoHag_: But if I did, I would. 2016-10-10T21:21:09Z ChoHag_: At least if what you wrote maps one symbol to another. 2016-10-10T21:22:06Z ChoHag_: It's just Shift-AltGr-, and Shift-AltGr-.. Not half as bad as the composing keys. 2016-10-10T21:23:30Z ChoHag_: Ümläuts and other wêird Eurpeañ shit. 2016-10-10T21:23:33Z TruePika: I've never memorized the AltGr keystrokes, my main OS is Windows, and I can get digraphs in Linux by either ^A^V (GNU Screen) or ^K (Vim Insert mode) 2016-10-10T21:23:50Z schjetne: We should probably stop talking about non-CL topics now 2016-10-10T21:23:54Z TruePika: err for Windows, I have a tool which makes Caps Lock act as a Compose key 2016-10-10T21:23:56Z ChoHag_: Sorry. 2016-10-10T21:24:54Z ChoHag_: Perhaps I could ask another way. What would a lisp implementation's ideal low-level language look like? 2016-10-10T21:25:10Z schjetne: ChoHag_: Common Lisp 2016-10-10T21:25:13Z ChoHag_: It has to convert to transistors on a die somehow. 2016-10-10T21:25:24Z mordocai: ChoHag_: Have you read about the old lisp machines? 2016-10-10T21:25:32Z ChoHag_: Not really. 2016-10-10T21:25:38Z ChoHag_: Of more than about. 2016-10-10T21:27:08Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T21:27:19Z mordocai: I'm not an expert on them, but from what I understand the "low level" language was itself lisp and the processors understood things like cons cells and had special support for garbage collection etc. 2016-10-10T21:27:24Z mordocai: Someone here certainly would know more 2016-10-10T21:28:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: ^ 2016-10-10T21:29:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: You can read up some papers on symbolic computers. 2016-10-10T21:29:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: I think there was something on the 3600 that talked about a SECD machine, but I'm not sure anymore. That was a while ago and I didn't understand it very well. 2016-10-10T21:30:36Z ChoHag_: Hmm. 2016-10-10T21:30:47Z ChoHag_: I only really thing about the Von Neumann 2016-10-10T21:31:04Z ChoHag_: (?) machine as being mostly equivalent to Turing. 2016-10-10T21:31:38Z ChoHag_: ie. A basically sequential sequence of changes of a memory-space. 2016-10-10T21:31:42Z rpg_: Random question: anyone have recommendation for open source license for lisp library? LLGPL? BSD no-endorsement? or something else? 2016-10-10T21:32:04Z ChoHag_: rpg_: I got bored and started 'licensing' everything I write under the WTFPL. 2016-10-10T21:32:29Z ChoHag_: Bored of legalish argumentative masturbation. 2016-10-10T21:32:36Z rpg_: this is stuff I did at work -- they are ok with me open sourcing it, but they don't want it to blow up in their faces or look unprofessional.... 2016-10-10T21:32:47Z ChoHag_: Hmm. 2016-10-10T21:32:56Z rpg_: The LLGPL is appealing because it takes into account how lisp works. 2016-10-10T21:33:06Z ChoHag_: Maybe BSD then. That's basically half a step up from "We did this. You can use it if you want." 2016-10-10T21:33:29Z rpg_: the BSD one is kind of nice because it says (IIUC) "you can't claim we are endorsing you just because you use our code" 2016-10-10T21:33:30Z schjetne: If you want permissive the MIT (expat) seems like the simplest, most straightforward one 2016-10-10T21:33:33Z ChoHag_: I'm not to keen on the "just admit it" addendum but there it is. 2016-10-10T21:33:39Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T21:33:39Z ChoHag_: s/to/too/ 2016-10-10T21:34:08Z rpg_: I guess the LLGPL is just a bug-fix on LGPL, and if we aren't going to use that, I shouldn't worry about its bug. 2016-10-10T21:34:08Z schjetne: BSD exists in too many versions, when people say "BSD" you have to check which clauses it actually includes 2016-10-10T21:34:22Z ChoHag_: WTFPL has plenty of "we don't care what you do with this" it just (probably, ask a lawyer) lacks any "just don't blame us". 2016-10-10T21:34:25Z mordocai: rpg_: http://www.ifosslr.org/ifosslr/article/view/75/146 2016-10-10T21:35:16Z ChoHag_: OTOH, You can do wtf you like, so a simple "you screwed up it's your fault" should be easy to add without making it incompatible with other open source efforts. 2016-10-10T21:35:23Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:35:32Z mordocai: If you want LGPL terms, the LGPL will work fine. The LLGPL doesn't actually map exactly to the LGPL and is probably unnecessary. 2016-10-10T21:35:33Z rpg_: mordocai: Jumping to "Conclusions" now! ;-) 2016-10-10T21:35:33Z ChoHag_: You could write the WTFPL++ (Enterprise Approved). 2016-10-10T21:35:37Z ChoHag_: (TM) 2016-10-10T21:36:11Z schjetne: ChoHag_: we get it, you've made your point 2016-10-10T21:36:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: The pirate license. It's illegal for you to use this, but here's the source anyway. 2016-10-10T21:36:28Z ChoHag_: Well what exactly *does* rpg_ want or not want from his license. 2016-10-10T21:36:39Z ChoHag_: If he wants whatever the fuck he wants, wtf may be appropriate. 2016-10-10T21:36:41Z ChoHag_: If not, not. 2016-10-10T21:37:14Z rpg_: You can use our stuff. You have to keep the copyright notice. 2016-10-10T21:37:28Z ChoHag_: That sounds like your common-or-garden BSD to me. 2016-10-10T21:37:29Z rpg_: and I like clause 3. 2016-10-10T21:37:48Z rpg_: You can't advertise based on your use of our code. 2016-10-10T21:38:07Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-10T21:38:10Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:38:12Z ChoHag_: That's too commercial for me to have reserved braincells for :) 2016-10-10T21:38:48Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T21:39:00Z TMA: rpg_: I have read an analysis of LLGPL and it is pretty awful from the legal standpoint -- like it's no longer a LGPL at all, because the "clarifications" modify it very strongly 2016-10-10T21:39:02Z pipping: the ISC license is supposed to be a cleaned up version of MIT/BSD, essentially: https://opensource.org/licenses/ISC 2016-10-10T21:39:14Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:39:28Z pipping: cleaned up to the point where it becomes human-readable 2016-10-10T21:39:45Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T21:39:48Z rpg_: pipping: Seems like the 2-clause. The 3rd clause actually seems pretty nice to me. 2016-10-10T21:40:02Z dwchandler: haha. what BSD license is *not* human readable. any of them fit on a postcard 2016-10-10T21:40:34Z rpg_: I agree that they don't need to carefully say "in source or binary blah blah" where the ISC says just "any old way" 2016-10-10T21:41:01Z rpg_: But BSD looks "good enough"\tm for me! 2016-10-10T21:41:18Z TruePika: ... 2016-10-10T21:41:20Z mastokley quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T21:41:21Z TruePika facepalms 2016-10-10T21:41:37Z pipping: rpg_: yes, BSD-2, not BSD-3 2016-10-10T21:41:42Z TruePika: I had my newton's method find f(x)=0, not f(x)=y 2016-10-10T21:41:53Z noorbeh joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:42:12Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2016-10-10T21:43:33Z Baggers left #lisp 2016-10-10T21:43:46Z mordocai: TMA: That analysis is probably the one I linked to rpg_ FWIW 2016-10-10T21:44:22Z mordocai: TruePika: One of those easy mistakes :) 2016-10-10T21:45:22Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:45:23Z TruePika: yes, I was wondering why the XYZ coordinates said I was in a 7 meter orbit from the center of mass 2016-10-10T21:45:37Z TruePika: versus 204km 2016-10-10T21:45:55Z noorbeh quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-10T21:48:49Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-10T21:50:37Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:51:43Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:51:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:53:29Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:54:22Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T21:55:03Z pipping: mordocai: that's a great link btw, thanks 2016-10-10T21:55:05Z jasom: rpg_: FWIW, here's what I think is a sane hash-table reader macro http://paste.lisp.org/+719X 2016-10-10T21:57:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T21:58:06Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-10T21:58:29Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-10T21:59:09Z jasom: The syntax looks roughly like this: {?:test ?'EQUAL ?:rehash-size ?1.5 ?:rehash-threshold ?1.0 3 4 1 2} 2016-10-10T22:00:38Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-10T22:00:46Z praisethemoon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T22:02:11Z TruePika: meh, this math only holds up for elliptical orbits 2016-10-10T22:02:25Z TruePika: not parabolic/hyperbolic escape trajectories 2016-10-10T22:03:10Z rpg_: jasom: Have you considered something more perl or JS-like? 3=>4, 1=>2 seems more readable 2016-10-10T22:03:26Z rpg_: also, you don't really need the embedded ?'s do you? 2016-10-10T22:03:57Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T22:06:29Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2016-10-10T22:06:42Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-10T22:07:20Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T22:07:21Z _death: http://paste.lisp.org/display/328248 old impl. of something Naggum described in a post 2016-10-10T22:12:17Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T22:14:03Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-10T22:19:00Z jasom: rpg_: how would you specify kwargs to make-hash-table ? 2016-10-10T22:19:35Z rpg_: jasom: Don't you get to read any way you want the contents of your construct in the braces? 2016-10-10T22:19:50Z jasom: rpg_: yes, so how would you do it? 2016-10-10T22:20:35Z jasom: would you make specifying parameters mandatory? 2016-10-10T22:20:40Z rpg_: I hadn't thought about it, but isn't the ? prefix unnecessary? Are you just doing that to distinguish the "header elements" from the body? 2016-10-10T22:20:48Z jasom: rpg_: yes 2016-10-10T22:21:00Z jasom: {1 2} would be a valid hash table as well 2016-10-10T22:21:23Z TruePika: I'm just wondering, is that prefix a literal question mark #\? or something that my term can't display? 2016-10-10T22:21:30Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-10T22:22:00Z jasom: a literal question mark 2016-10-10T22:22:04Z rpg_: I dunno. I guess one could have something like { [:test :equal :rehash-size 1.5] 3=>4 1=>2} does that make sense? 2016-10-10T22:22:11Z jasom: rpg_: yes that makes sense 2016-10-10T22:22:24Z jasom: I considered { ?(:test 'equal) ... } 2016-10-10T22:22:29Z rpg_: Then {1=>2} would still be a legit hash table, with all the defaults. 2016-10-10T22:23:01Z rpg_: but that's based on 2.4s of thought 2016-10-10T22:23:39Z pjb: i_o: have a look at RAX! http://www.cliki.net/DeepSpace1 2016-10-10T22:23:50Z _death: jasom: keywords/quote seem silly 2016-10-10T22:24:30Z rpg_: _death: but if you want to have a variable with the name of the test..... 2016-10-10T22:24:35Z pjb: i_o: now, of course, they can also set things up to be able to "debug" remotely robots and sondes written in C, even when the use the FAT file system to store their data! But it's so much easier and funnier with a lisp REPL… 2016-10-10T22:24:49Z _death: rpg: in your hash-table defining literal? 2016-10-10T22:25:57Z rpg_: _death: yes. 2016-10-10T22:26:04Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-10T22:26:11Z pjb quit (Quit: good night.) 2016-10-10T22:30:00Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-10T22:31:54Z tilpner quit (Quit: :wq) 2016-10-10T22:32:43Z tilpner joined #lisp 2016-10-10T22:33:01Z eblocs_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T22:34:35Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-10T22:36:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T22:37:09Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-10T22:39:05Z mateuszb quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-10T22:41:34Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-10T22:42:32Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-10T22:44:30Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-10T22:45:52Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T22:47:34Z jasom: rpg_: http://paste.lisp.org/+719X/1 2016-10-10T22:47:46Z jasom: {[:test 'equal] "foo" => "bar"} 2016-10-10T22:47:57Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-10T22:48:28Z newcup quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T22:48:36Z jasom: commas between kv pairs are optional, and a trailing comma is allowed 2016-10-10T22:50:33Z b3atr joined #lisp 2016-10-10T22:50:46Z b3atr: Land of Lisp or Practical Common Lisp? 2016-10-10T22:51:22Z jasom: b3atr: what's youre background? 2016-10-10T22:51:41Z b3atr: jasom: ruby, python, c, bash, javascript, scala, 2016-10-10T22:51:44Z b3atr: etc. 2016-10-10T22:51:46Z jasom: rpg_: better format string for pretty-printing is "~<{~;[:test '~S :rehash-size ~S :rehash-threshold ~S]~{~S => ~S~^, ~_~}~;}~:>" (newline is then only between pairs) 2016-10-10T22:51:51Z jasom: b3atr: practical common lisp 2016-10-10T22:52:03Z b3atr: jself: thanks 2016-10-10T22:53:06Z jasom: b3atr: also, which OS are you on? PCL is lacking in an intro to setting up a reasonable REPL 2016-10-10T22:53:59Z jasom: s/lacking/outdated 2016-10-10T22:54:16Z clintm joined #lisp 2016-10-10T22:55:17Z b3atr: jasom: arch 2016-10-10T22:56:45Z benny: I want to check if I have a list of nils, is there a better way to do it than (null (remq nil '(nil nil nil))) ? 2016-10-10T22:56:49Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-10T22:56:57Z _death: benny: (every #'null list) 2016-10-10T22:57:07Z benny: _death: thanks! 2016-10-10T22:57:33Z jasom: b3atr: install sbcl and emacs via pacman, then run this script to install the slime plugin for emacs: https://paste.pound-python.org/show/wpydNZIDR6HkeNcbFaRk/ 2016-10-10T22:57:34Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-10T22:58:09Z b3atr: jasom: ok, thanks. i can do that :) 2016-10-10T22:58:57Z jasom: oh, run that script as non-root, it installs it locally to the current user 2016-10-10T22:59:54Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-10T23:00:13Z jasom: b3atr: oh, and here's the curl friendly version: https://paste.pound-python.org/raw/wpydNZIDR6HkeNcbFaRk/ 2016-10-10T23:05:52Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-10T23:16:20Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T23:19:12Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T23:28:42Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-10T23:31:07Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-10T23:31:48Z lucasb quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-10T23:35:36Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-10T23:38:27Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-10T23:39:22Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-10T23:39:44Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-10T23:42:33Z eblocs_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T23:48:14Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T23:49:47Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-10T23:50:29Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T23:51:51Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-10T23:56:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-10T23:58:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-10T23:59:01Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-10T23:59:22Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2016-10-11T00:00:16Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T00:04:37Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-11T00:10:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T00:12:26Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T00:15:01Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-11T00:17:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-11T00:18:32Z _sjs quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-11T00:20:03Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T00:21:20Z clintm joined #lisp 2016-10-11T00:26:34Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-11T00:26:39Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-11T00:26:50Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T00:27:14Z rpg_: jasom: I was away for dinner. just catching up. 2016-10-11T00:27:20Z rpg_ is now known as rpg 2016-10-11T00:29:26Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-11T00:34:47Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T00:35:56Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-11T00:36:28Z warweasle is now known as ww_munchies_no_w 2016-10-11T00:39:04Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-11T00:45:52Z ramus_ is now known as ramus 2016-10-11T00:48:10Z ww_munchies_no_w is now known as warweasle 2016-10-11T01:01:39Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:06:34Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:07:00Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T01:09:50Z watersoul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T01:10:07Z watersoul_ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:18:57Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T01:21:24Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T01:24:05Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T01:25:12Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:30:56Z akkad: in sbcl is there a way to get a more fine grained backtrace? I get the top level function but not the actual function the error happens in 2016-10-11T01:32:43Z Bike: you should get both. 2016-10-11T01:35:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:37:09Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:38:02Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:39:42Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T01:40:24Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:41:09Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-11T01:41:19Z akkad: k 2016-10-11T01:42:14Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T01:47:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:50:05Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:51:46Z slowup joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:52:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:53:48Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:53:51Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-11T01:56:32Z clintm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T01:57:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T01:59:17Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-11T02:00:05Z killmaster joined #lisp 2016-10-11T02:01:44Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-11T02:04:29Z pierpa: akkad: are you working at (optimize (debug 3)) ? 2016-10-11T02:06:49Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-11T02:07:06Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-11T02:10:39Z BeautifulSoup joined #lisp 2016-10-11T02:10:48Z BeautifulSoup is now known as m0sFet 2016-10-11T02:11:14Z akkad: pierpa: yes 2016-10-11T02:11:40Z pierpa: hmmm 2016-10-11T02:12:07Z akkad: (declaim (optimize (safety 3) (speed 0) (debug 3))) at top of file. problem appears to be related to pcall:join masking it 2016-10-11T02:12:08Z akkad: 2016-10-11T02:12:17Z akkad: without pcall I can get the full trace 2016-10-11T02:12:40Z akkad: is dbi used much? 2016-10-11T02:12:48Z cmack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T02:13:13Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-10-11T02:13:21Z pierpa: no idea here 2016-10-11T02:16:21Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-11T02:17:30Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-11T02:24:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T02:24:45Z slowup quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T02:24:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-11T02:35:17Z warweasle quit (Quit: night) 2016-10-11T02:35:49Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-11T02:38:17Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T02:41:40Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T02:41:42Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T02:47:23Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2016-10-11T03:03:12Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T03:04:08Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-11T03:06:09Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-11T03:06:14Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-11T03:08:18Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-11T03:08:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T03:11:10Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-11T03:11:18Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-11T03:12:25Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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So that eg. for 2 slots a single CONS is used (and not two)? 2016-10-11T05:33:07Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-11T05:36:47Z Bike: nope. 2016-10-11T05:39:33Z neuri8 quit (Quit: L) 2016-10-11T05:46:04Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-11T05:48:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T05:52:13Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-11T05:52:36Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T05:56:34Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-11T05:56:59Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:03:58Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T06:06:24Z flip214: well, there could be... implementation-defined. 2016-10-11T06:08:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:08:38Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:08:46Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:09:04Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T06:09:41Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T06:13:50Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:13:53Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T06:17:54Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:19:40Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T06:20:54Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T06:23:20Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:24:19Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:27:05Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:27:17Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-11T06:28:20Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-11T06:28:44Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:29:12Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:29:32Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T06:30:06Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-11T06:34:33Z jdz: akkad: is pcall part of lparallel? 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(mkstr-sensitive 'abc) ==> "abc" 2016-10-11T09:52:37Z smokeink: (mkstr-sensitive 'aBc') ==> "aBc" 2016-10-11T09:53:43Z splittist: by the time it's a symbol name it's already been processed by the reader 2016-10-11T09:54:46Z pipping: smokeink: in mlisp (Allegro CL in case-sensitive mode), (symbol-name 'aBc) will return "aBc". 2016-10-11T09:55:29Z pipping: smokeink: in alisp (Allegro CL in case-insensitive mode), (symbol-name 'aBc) will return "ABC". 2016-10-11T09:55:44Z jackdaniel: if you feel like shooting foots is fun, you may set the readtable-case :) 2016-10-11T09:56:03Z jackdaniel: feet 2016-10-11T09:56:48Z smokeink: can't find a way to set it only temporarily for that function and then restore it 2016-10-11T09:57:16Z jackdaniel: it can't be function, symbols are read already 2016-10-11T09:57:32Z jackdaniel: you may set function for a reader macro, and there you could change the case 2016-10-11T09:58:05Z smokeink: okay i understand 2016-10-11T09:58:27Z jackdaniel: pipping: I vaguely remember you have mentioned cffi-based approach for OS interaction – I think OSICAT does that 2016-10-11T09:59:04Z |3b|: (string '|aBc|) -> "aBc" 2016-10-11T09:59:21Z jackdaniel: yeah, and that :) 2016-10-11T09:59:54Z nostoi joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:00:00Z pipping: |3b|: you're trying to make it seem more natural to put characters between vertical bars, hm? 2016-10-11T10:00:18Z pipping: jackdaniel: yes, OSICAT does a very good job. It gets symlinks right. 2016-10-11T10:01:48Z pipping: jackdaniel: I'd recommend OSICAT for handling filesystem interaction on UNIX any day, assuming you can depend on CFFI 2016-10-11T10:03:43Z Oladon joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:05:51Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T10:05:52Z liead is now known as adlai 2016-10-11T10:05:55Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:08:33Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:08:58Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:14:28Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:14:51Z pmicossi joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:19:08Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:20:04Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T10:23:30Z hebroon joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:24:24Z Jameser_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T10:32:11Z justinabrahms quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-11T10:34:02Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T10:40:31Z justinabrahms joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:43:08Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:46:04Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:46:32Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T10:48:35Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:49:56Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend.) 2016-10-11T10:50:43Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:52:50Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:55:07Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:56:06Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-11T10:56:27Z nha_ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T10:57:19Z nha_: How come i get "Package asdf does not exist" when i restart my image, despite it being loaded before save-lisp-and-die? 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Demo code: libopencv_wrap.c: http://pasteall.org/84699/c , Makefile: http://pasteall.org/84697/text , demo.lisp: http://pasteall.org/84719/lisp . Any suggestion? 2016-10-11T13:21:54Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T13:22:09Z muyinliu: The structure contains a double[4] value. 2016-10-11T13:24:22Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:24:22Z warweasle quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-11T13:24:35Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:24:45Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:25:31Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:25:45Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T13:29:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T13:31:52Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:35:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:36:17Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-11T13:36:37Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-11T13:36:50Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:36:52Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T13:37:15Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:43:17Z roscoe_tw joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:44:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:44:55Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:50:14Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:50:22Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:50:45Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T13:51:33Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:51:38Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-11T13:52:47Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:52:49Z gsm quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-11T13:53:40Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:53:44Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-11T13:55:13Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-11T13:55:49Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-11T13:58:44Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:00:51Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T14:01:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:03:02Z NhanH__ is now known as NhanH 2016-10-11T14:04:52Z gsm quit (Quit: gsm) 2016-10-11T14:05:44Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T14:07:25Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:08:03Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-11T14:09:53Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:12:22Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:12:45Z dwrngr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T14:13:21Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:13:53Z logicmoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T14:16:48Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-11T14:17:00Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:20:11Z unrahul quit 2016-10-11T14:20:37Z unrahul joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:20:40Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:21:34Z didi joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:22:47Z didi: Can SBCL know if something is being run as a script? I am writing a script (with a shebang) but I want to avoid running some expressions while I am developing it inside the REPL. 2016-10-11T14:24:18Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-11T14:25:01Z flip214: didi: sb-ext:*posix-argv*, perhaps? 2016-10-11T14:25:15Z didi: flip214: Thanks. I will try it. 2016-10-11T14:25:28Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T14:26:00Z flip214: there was talk about a flag in *features*, but it seems that didn't make it?! 2016-10-11T14:27:08Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:27:27Z hjudt: arc and clojure do not support multiple return values. what is the reasoning behind this decision? i find mrvs quite convenient. 2016-10-11T14:27:45Z hjudt: i am asking this because they are _newer_ lisp dialects. 2016-10-11T14:28:43Z splittist: some men just want to watch the world burn 2016-10-11T14:32:07Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-11T14:32:46Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:32:52Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T14:33:07Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:34:16Z loke`: hjudt: In cluure's case I suppose it has to do with Java compatibility 2016-10-11T14:34:42Z loke`: Arc is a Scheme, which doesn't have multiple returns I think 2016-10-11T14:34:43Z raydeejay: there's also destructuring 2016-10-11T14:35:58Z loke`: Emacs Lisp also doesn't have it 2016-10-11T14:36:49Z hjudt: emacs lisp doesn't count. it is an editor ;-) 2016-10-11T14:37:25Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:37:27Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-11T14:37:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:37:53Z didi: flip214: Unfortunately sb-ext:*posix-argv* is the same ("/usr/bin/sbcl") list in the REPL and inside a script. 2016-10-11T14:39:23Z Cymew: pipping: How does uiop/filesystem compare? 2016-10-11T14:39:51Z hjudt: but i didn't know there are other lisps which do not support them, i thought someone who has used common lisp and is creating a new lisp would implement them. 2016-10-11T14:39:52Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T14:40:36Z didi: Not everyone agrees that multiple return values is a good thing. 2016-10-11T14:40:57Z Grue`: it's mostly a performance optimization feature, most "new lisps" don't care about such stuff 2016-10-11T14:42:02Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:42:05Z b3atr: what's the common way of reading a file line by line? 2016-10-11T14:42:20Z jackdaniel: b3atr: read-line until you have eof 2016-10-11T14:42:22Z rpg: The ML family of languages also have multiple value returns, but in the form of tuples. 2016-10-11T14:42:33Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-11T14:42:34Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:42:45Z didi: rpg: Indeed. I should have specified that. 2016-10-11T14:43:16Z rpg: so I don't think multiple value returns are necessarily fading away. 2016-10-11T14:43:25Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T14:43:25Z rpg: Doesn't go use them to handle error returns? 2016-10-11T14:43:36Z jackdaniel: (do ((line #1=(read-line *str* nil :end) #1#)) ((= line :end) :done) …) ; for instance 2016-10-11T14:43:45Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:43:53Z didi: One issue is having to use an specific form to get the multiple part. 2016-10-11T14:44:05Z gsm quit (Quit: gsm) 2016-10-11T14:44:41Z b3atr: jackdaniel: (read-line (open "~/.vimrc.bundles")) 2016-10-11T14:44:44Z rpg: didi: less of a problem with tuples... 2016-10-11T14:44:50Z didi: rpg: *nod* 2016-10-11T14:45:08Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-11T14:45:15Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T14:45:45Z jackdaniel: b3atr: no, you do (with-open-file (*file* "~/.vimrc.bundles) (do …)) 2016-10-11T14:46:06Z jackdaniel: so you have file closed (*file* is a stream, you may use format and all stream-wise folks) 2016-10-11T14:46:25Z jackdaniel: mikaelj_: tell b3atr about pcl 2016-10-11T14:46:31Z jackdaniel: minion: tell b3atr about pcl 2016-10-11T14:46:31Z minion: b3atr: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2016-10-11T14:46:35Z jackdaniel: mikaelj_: sorry! 2016-10-11T14:47:25Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:47:27Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-11T14:47:42Z didi left #lisp 2016-10-11T14:47:45Z b3atr: jackdaniel: is there any documention of funcitons, reference or something? 2016-10-11T14:47:57Z jackdaniel: clhs introduction 2016-10-11T14:47:57Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for introduction. 2016-10-11T14:48:02Z jackdaniel: clhs read-line 2016-10-11T14:48:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm 2016-10-11T14:48:09Z jackdaniel: b3atr: ↑ 2016-10-11T14:48:34Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:50:48Z dyelar quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-11T14:51:16Z b3atr: i came from c, ruby, python, scala background. 2016-10-11T14:51:34Z hjudt: rpg: i see. my only complaint would be having to ignore values i do not wish to use to silence compiler warnings. but i guess one could work around that using a macro. 2016-10-11T14:51:37Z gsm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-11T14:51:55Z b3atr: anyone here recommend to learn common lisp or other dialect like clojure, etc. 2016-10-11T14:52:04Z jackdaniel: b3atr: I think PCL should be all right for you as an introduciton 2016-10-11T14:52:41Z jackdaniel: people here prefer CL (it's CL channel) – so this one is recommended. I'm sure if you join #clojure they will recommend clojure :-) 2016-10-11T14:53:20Z pipping: Cymew: (re) 2016-10-11T14:53:30Z b3atr: jackdaniel: yeah, i'm already reading it. 2016-10-11T14:53:31Z jackdaniel: if you join #scheme, scheme will be advised, and if you join #c, they will say that C is the best lisp over there :P 2016-10-11T14:54:05Z Cymew: pipping: uiop compared to osicat, that is 2016-10-11T14:54:24Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T14:54:29Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-11T14:54:40Z pipping: Cymew: the short answer is: you cannot currently use uiop/filesystem with symlinks and expect it to work 2016-10-11T14:54:48Z Cymew: ok. thanks. 2016-10-11T14:54:53Z pipping: Cymew: on some implementations it does, on others it does not 2016-10-11T14:55:06Z Cymew: Sounds "portable". 2016-10-11T14:55:14Z rpg: I got oddball results on CCL with UIOP 2016-10-11T14:55:27Z pipping: rpg: with symlinks, you mean? 2016-10-11T14:55:30Z Cymew: osicat it is then 2016-10-11T14:55:35Z rpg: pipping: yes 2016-10-11T14:55:58Z rpg: had symlink farm in ~/common-lisp/ -- worked fine on SBCL and ACL, not on CCL. 2016-10-11T14:55:59Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:56:02Z pipping: rpg: right. please see also https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/merge_requests/27 2016-10-11T14:57:00Z pipping: rpg: the summary of that is: if we want behaviour where symlinks are always followed, we can have that portably 2016-10-11T14:57:03Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:57:08Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-11T14:57:11Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-11T14:57:11Z pipping: rpg: if we want the opposite, we cannot currently have that portabily 2016-10-11T14:57:22Z pipping: rpg: right now, we have neither (i.e., a mixture of both) 2016-10-11T15:00:55Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:01:19Z gsm quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-11T15:01:36Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:01:38Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-11T15:01:41Z Olical quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T15:01:44Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:02:23Z Olical joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:05:42Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-11T15:07:04Z pipping: Cymew: the merge request 4 lines up is also where the longer answer is 2016-10-11T15:07:27Z Cymew: thx 2016-10-11T15:07:32Z Olical quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T15:08:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:08:34Z gsm quit (Quit: gsm) 2016-10-11T15:10:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:10:33Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T15:12:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:12:26Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:13:51Z pipping: the annoying bit is that Fare wrote a patch to fix the behaviour of sbcl's directory w.r.t. symlinks and it's just been lying there, accumulating dust in SBCL's bug tracker for years, without a review or even a comment 2016-10-11T15:14:45Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T15:14:48Z pipping: (that's https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1114689) 2016-10-11T15:15:38Z jackdaniel: is there a way to list systems which are available to ASDF? 2016-10-11T15:15:58Z rpg: jackdaniel: that's sort of in principle impossible. 2016-10-11T15:16:28Z rpg: Consider: a single .asd file may have multiple system definitions in it. So the only way to list all the available systems would be to load all the available asds 2016-10-11T15:16:42Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:16:59Z varjagg joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:17:00Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:17:11Z Xach: It may have any code at all in it, too, that does anything Lisp can do. 2016-10-11T15:17:13Z rpg: I think there's some hidden hash table that has all the asd files. 2016-10-11T15:17:26Z jackdaniel: OK, then clim-listener aims for impossible, I'll remove that command 2016-10-11T15:17:54Z jackdaniel: (it has asdf command table as it seems) 2016-10-11T15:18:17Z rpg: SLIME does this, but I believe it just assumes 1 system/asd and uses the asd filename. That's not a bad assumption because the other systems in an asd are usually helpers (foo/test, foo/data-structures, etc.) 2016-10-11T15:18:35Z rpg: Probably better to have that feature than take it out because it's imperfect. 2016-10-11T15:18:55Z rpg: IIRC McCLIM itself is one of the examples of a library that breaks this rule! 2016-10-11T15:19:14Z rpg: It always used to have an enormous ASD file with tons of stuff in it. 2016-10-11T15:19:15Z jackdaniel: rpg: where? 2016-10-11T15:19:19Z jackdaniel: ah, it got split 2016-10-11T15:19:39Z jackdaniel: rpg: so how to get a list of all discovered asd files? 2016-10-11T15:20:09Z rpg: jackdaniel: I'm afraid I don't know off-hand. There's a hash table, and you can flatten and sort it, but I don't recall what it's called or how you get at it. 2016-10-11T15:20:34Z rpg: TBH, I don't know how to effectively debug Fare's DSL, so I still use *CENTRAL-REGISTRY*& 2016-10-11T15:21:24Z rpg: I've been meaning to dig around in there and figure out all the data structures sufficiently to debug when the DSL doesn't do what I expect, but I never have the time. Some new bug or other always comes up. 2016-10-11T15:22:28Z jackdaniel: I'm tempted to remove asdf commands from clim-listener, but I'm sure someone will get upset, so I'll just remove that particular command 2016-10-11T15:22:52Z rpg: So for production use I have my own tree searcher, and I use it to populate *CENTRAL-REGISTRY*. I don't ever have the issues of scale that caused Fare to add the DSL and all the caching. 2016-10-11T15:23:17Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-11T15:23:32Z rpg: like I said, I think you could keep it. There's some ancient email in asdf-devel where Fare explains how to get the table entries. 2016-10-11T15:23:35Z jackdaniel: it might be a bit overengineered it seems 2016-10-11T15:24:37Z jackdaniel: nah, I'm working right now on plugging some interfaces, I don't want to spend too much time on fixing this particular part 2016-10-11T15:24:39Z rpg: Hard for me to say. If you have the huge repo of systems you might want to load, then the caching is important. 2016-10-11T15:25:09Z rpg: But if you want to understand things, it's a lot easier to use *CENTRAL-REGISTRY*, because debugging is just a (PPRINT ASDF:*CENTRAL-REGISTRY*) away. 2016-10-11T15:25:10Z jackdaniel: thanks for explaining this part 2016-10-11T15:25:45Z rpg: Tracing the ASDF search is also really hard because it uses variables that store search functions, so it can be hard to tell what to trace. 2016-10-11T15:25:51Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:25:57Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T15:25:58Z rpg: There's a good reason for that, though: it supports the Quicklisp extensions. 2016-10-11T15:26:39Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:26:41Z Xach: the search function list is a majorly useful escape hatch 2016-10-11T15:26:46Z vento joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:27:02Z Xach: I wonder if it is still busted with respect to slashed/system names 2016-10-11T15:29:26Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:29:27Z rpg: Xach: this is a bug I didn't know about.... 2016-10-11T15:29:38Z Xach: I don't think it's considered a bug, but part of the design. 2016-10-11T15:30:02Z rpg: what does it (not) do for slashy systems? 2016-10-11T15:30:24Z Xach: when slashed systems were first introduced, asdf would pass the slashed system name to each search function, and if the search function didn't grok the semantics of slashes, it would return no result. 2016-10-11T15:30:37Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T15:31:07Z Xach: in my view, it should be up to asdf to then try the unslashed name and then see if that registers the slashed name (because that's what it has to do anyway...no way to know if a system file actually defines any slashed systems) 2016-10-11T15:31:19Z rpg: so it was up to the search function to use the prefix, rather than ASDF. 2016-10-11T15:31:36Z Xach: right. so any pre-slash search functions potentially broke. 2016-10-11T15:31:44Z rpg: I guess it's arguable that's a feature, not a bug. someone *could* change the semantics of slashes. 2016-10-11T15:31:46Z Xach: when they could have worked without any changes. 2016-10-11T15:32:01Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-11T15:32:10Z Grue`: why should behavior of slashes depend on search function? 2016-10-11T15:32:21Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-11T15:32:34Z rpg: Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to allow a search function to announce when it wants to override slash semantics, which would preserve function of slash-ignorant search functions. 2016-10-11T15:33:04Z rpg: But is this water under the bridge now? I mean, are there still un-fixed search functions in the wild? 2016-10-11T15:33:42Z Xach: I think it still screws up Quicklisp. 2016-10-11T15:33:57Z Olical joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:34:27Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:35:05Z Xach: Grue`: it used to be that search functions returned a file to load to define the system 2016-10-11T15:35:17Z Xach: Grue`: then it was allowed to return a system object instead 2016-10-11T15:35:58Z pipping: rpg: btw, do you happen to know if 2>> works on windows? all the docs I can find say that redirecting stderr via 2> works and appending stdout via >> works, but I just assumed you'd be able to combine them; I'm not /sure/ if you can 2016-10-11T15:36:19Z Xach: "Normal" (?) semantics of a slashed system foo/bar means "load the system file 'foo.asd' where you find it and check to see if a system 'foo/bar' is now defined" 2016-10-11T15:36:40Z Xach: But with a custom search function I imagine you could do pretty much anything. 2016-10-11T15:36:41Z rpg: pipping: TBH, I have essentially *never* run CMD.exe. I have no idea how windows bat scripts work. 2016-10-11T15:40:45Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:40:47Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-11T15:43:31Z jasom: pipping: my command.com knowledge is old; IIRC it wasn't until DOS 5 that 2> worked 2016-10-11T15:43:48Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:44:30Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:44:36Z pipping: jasom: thanks, it now looks like anything NT and later should do: http://www.robvanderwoude.com/redirection.php 2016-10-11T15:45:23Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:45:51Z impaktor_ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:45:59Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2016-10-11T15:46:10Z jasom: And I'm misremembering too; it looks like MSDOS never had stderr. 2016-10-11T15:50:33Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T15:52:06Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:52:16Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T15:54:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T15:55:25Z pmicossi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T15:55:42Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2016-10-11T15:56:00Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T15:58:16Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T16:00:00Z impaktor_ left #lisp 2016-10-11T16:01:01Z djh: After a year long hiatus to work through SICP, I've returned to writing CL as I start working through PAIP. It's more fun to write than I remembered :) 2016-10-11T16:01:06Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T16:01:45Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:01:48Z TMA: jasom: I think that there was in fact a stderr, there was no means to redirect it though 2016-10-11T16:03:04Z pipping: TMA: so one could redirect stdout to a file but stderr was always written to the terminal? 2016-10-11T16:03:52Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T16:04:12Z TMA: pipping: I think so. 2016-10-11T16:04:29Z pipping: (sounds a bit medieval. but then, I think that's the same feature set and thus time period clisp's ext:run-shell-command is still stuck with) 2016-10-11T16:04:49Z TMA: it's twenty years since I have last used DOS 2016-10-11T16:04:53Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T16:05:02Z jasom: TMA that might be what I'm remembering with either dos 3.5 or dos 5.0 introducing stderr 2016-10-11T16:05:46Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:05:56Z dwchandler: drdos! 2016-10-11T16:06:17Z jasom: dwchandler: I used both 6.0 and nwdos 7.0 as well 2016-10-11T16:07:03Z impaktor_ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:08:02Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T16:08:22Z impaktor_ left #lisp 2016-10-11T16:10:20Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-11T16:12:02Z mrottenkolber quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T16:13:41Z HeyFlash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T16:18:20Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T16:19:12Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2016-10-11T16:19:41Z b3atr quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-11T16:20:12Z ekinmur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T16:20:34Z impaktor_ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:20:46Z akkad hunts for popularity ratings of ql packages 2016-10-11T16:21:41Z beaky: indeed djh i find common lisp expands the mind in the same way haskell did 2016-10-11T16:21:46Z safe joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:23:33Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:23:40Z pipping pumps air into beaky's mind 2016-10-11T16:24:07Z djh: careful, you'll let out all the parens! :) 2016-10-11T16:24:12Z akkad: okd digdug 2016-10-11T16:26:12Z pavelpenev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T16:26:40Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:26:40Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2016-10-11T16:26:40Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:26:59Z pipping: djh: xkcd 297? 2016-10-11T16:27:43Z djh: An old favourite 2016-10-11T16:27:58Z djh: Along with "My god, it's full of cars!" :) 2016-10-11T16:29:10Z impaktor_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-11T16:31:10Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:31:53Z pipping: (slightly off-topic) news of today: julia 0.5 is out. 2016-10-11T16:33:16Z gsm quit (Quit: gsm) 2016-10-11T16:37:06Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:37:09Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-11T16:39:15Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:39:55Z akkad: Xach: are there any sort of stats on downloads/package in ql? 2016-10-11T16:40:05Z Xach: akkad: there are stats but i have been lax in publishing 2016-10-11T16:40:19Z Xach: akkad: all the stats go into a database and i should write some scripts to produce reports for me 2016-10-11T16:41:13Z akkad: mostly trying to avoid spending time on the wrong package if there is one more commonly used/maintained etc 2016-10-11T16:41:39Z muyinliu: CFFI issue: Pass value of complex structure() to foreign function faild. Demo code: libopencv_wrap.c: http://pasteall.org/84699/c , Makefile: http://pasteall.org/84697/text , demo.lisp: http://pasteall.org/84719/lisp . Any suggestion? The structure contains a double[4] value. 2016-10-11T16:41:55Z Xach: akkad: oh, very very sensible. i am sorry there isn't more info published yet. i hope to do it. 2016-10-11T16:42:00Z akkad: so noobs don't spend forever to realize postmodern is what they want to use for postgres, etc 2016-10-11T16:42:12Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T16:42:16Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T16:42:26Z Xach: akkad: i'd love to share download stats, github activity/popularity, general update frequency, in one easy-to-find place. 2016-10-11T16:42:35Z Xach: akkad: i am gathering the data but have not put a frontend on it :~( 2016-10-11T16:46:57Z pipping: could somebody with the necessary privileges make another CFFI release before the next quicklisp dist update? 2016-10-11T16:48:04Z pipping: I've seen people hitting https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/92 in this channel a few times already, also on github and other places; it seems unnecessary that users continue to hit an issue that's been addressed upstream already 2016-10-11T16:48:31Z pipping: (most recent CFFI release was in march afaict) 2016-10-11T16:49:11Z jasom: pipping: thanks for mentioning it; it reminded me to ping my PR 2016-10-11T16:49:36Z pipping: especially because this affects even the most recent release (1.3.10) of the probably most widely used CL implementation (SBCL) 2016-10-11T16:51:18Z pipping: jasom: indeed; it's been (exactly) a month already and certainly doesn't feel that way 2016-10-11T16:51:49Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2016-10-11T16:53:36Z jackdaniel: is there a library which has a "collect" macro (like the one found in cmu utils)? 2016-10-11T16:54:36Z Xach: jackdaniel: uiop has one but i don't know if it's exported. 2016-10-11T16:56:03Z jackdaniel: it's named there while-collecting, thanks 2016-10-11T16:56:12Z jackdaniel: (it is exported) 2016-10-11T16:59:24Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T16:59:33Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:04:16Z ekinmur quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-11T17:04:24Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-11T17:04:43Z ggole quit 2016-10-11T17:07:13Z Olical quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T17:07:58Z trn quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-11T17:08:27Z gsm quit (Quit: gsm) 2016-10-11T17:08:40Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-11T17:14:41Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T17:17:31Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:25:08Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:27:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:27:53Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:30:12Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T17:30:15Z seg_ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:30:19Z reepca` is now known as reepca 2016-10-11T17:31:10Z seg_ is now known as seg 2016-10-11T17:32:02Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:36:48Z vento quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-11T17:37:28Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:38:09Z lucasb joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:39:31Z Olical joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:41:09Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:41:26Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:45:25Z jasom: djh: I always liked "I mean, ostensibly, yes. Honestly, we hacked most of it together with Perl" though that's getting dated as perl is used less and less 2016-10-11T17:46:00Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:46:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T17:48:04Z scymtym__: pipping: i'm looking at lp#1114689 (again, previous attempts due to lack of sbcl-time). currently reproducing the problem you describe without the patch 2016-10-11T17:55:22Z pjb: jasom: s/perl/lisp and it becomes eternal :-) 2016-10-11T17:55:43Z akkad: but perl is vinegar and lisp is wine 2016-10-11T17:56:30Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T17:56:57Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-11T17:57:35Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T17:57:55Z Olical quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T17:59:53Z vapid: no 2016-10-11T18:00:01Z vapid: perl is dogshit and lisp is generally useless 2016-10-11T18:00:15Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:03:28Z akkad fixes filter 2016-10-11T18:05:11Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:05:40Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T18:10:23Z vap1 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:10:30Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:10:30Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2016-10-11T18:10:30Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:11:11Z rpg: perl is a tool that's made for a different purpose than Common Lisp. 2016-10-11T18:11:25Z chris_l joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:11:34Z vapid: exactly 2016-10-11T18:11:39Z vapid: but there's python and especially ruby 2016-10-11T18:11:47Z vapid: which does that job a hundred times better 2016-10-11T18:11:50Z vapid: perl is simply archaic 2016-10-11T18:12:00Z rpg: that seems like not a topic for this group 2016-10-11T18:12:08Z vapid: oh but lisp is 2016-10-11T18:12:12Z vapid: and lisp is literally not useful 2016-10-11T18:12:26Z H4ns: vapid: then why are you here? 2016-10-11T18:12:28Z vapid: what job does it excel at? 2016-10-11T18:12:29Z vapid: dunno 2016-10-11T18:12:55Z vap1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T18:12:55Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T18:13:09Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:13:20Z H4ns: vapid: delete your account 2016-10-11T18:13:34Z vapid: y-you too 2016-10-11T18:16:54Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-11T18:17:04Z chris_l quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-10-11T18:17:33Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T18:17:38Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T18:18:08Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:18:37Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T18:20:20Z ovenpasta: lol 2016-10-11T18:23:40Z martinlofgren joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:25:17Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-11T18:25:41Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:25:57Z phoe: vapid: I guess you've come here to complain 2016-10-11T18:26:02Z phoe: and that you've got a lot of time to spare 2016-10-11T18:26:09Z vapid: yes i do 2016-10-11T18:26:11Z vapid: because i have no life 2016-10-11T18:26:12Z vapid: or gf 2016-10-11T18:26:14Z vapid: or friends 2016-10-11T18:26:20Z vapid: or anything in general 2016-10-11T18:26:22Z phoe: if you're willing to throw it away for stuff that sucks and not spend it on something that's worth it 2016-10-11T18:29:13Z madbub: lol, these people shitpost even on IRC ... 2016-10-11T18:30:12Z dwrngr: i don't really see any irony there ;p 2016-10-11T18:30:42Z madbub: /query jfelipe 2016-10-11T18:31:10Z pipping: scymtym__: cool, thanks for looking into that 2016-10-11T18:31:18Z madbub left #lisp 2016-10-11T18:32:16Z hebroon quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T18:32:31Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:33:23Z scymtym__: pipping: sure. no promises, though. DIRECTORY is tough 2016-10-11T18:35:02Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T18:36:28Z vapid: there's no irony 2016-10-11T18:36:42Z vapid: i used to really like a girl 2016-10-11T18:36:53Z vapid: but then i accidentally threw a snowball at her 2016-10-11T18:36:59Z vapid: and she has hated me ever since 2016-10-11T18:37:19Z pipping: scymtym__: I recently wrote a test case for cmucl which had a similar issue (although the fix was much simpler); https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cmucl/cmucl/commit/593288777b39b1bfbe5aa5d5065993863de5e2eb might come in handy (not only the test but also the changes to tests/resources/mr.15 which contains the necessary files/directories 2016-10-11T18:37:22Z vapid: i also have bipolar disorder, adhd and visual snow from progressive brain damage 2016-10-11T18:37:28Z martinlofgren quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T18:37:33Z pipping notices that cmucl 21b is out, yay 2016-10-11T18:39:38Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-11T18:40:15Z AeroNotix: can we just ban the trolls please 2016-10-11T18:40:22Z scymtym__: pipping: thanks for the link 2016-10-11T18:43:07Z hebroon joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:47:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:52:26Z pipping: Hm. slightly annoyingly https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cmucl/cmucl/merge_requests/15 and https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cmucl/cmucl/merge_requests/16 currently both give me an error 500, making the link I pasted earlier much less helpful :( 2016-10-11T18:56:17Z ovenpasta: vapid: you'll need something like this https://www.youtube.com/user/sadhguru 2016-10-11T18:56:28Z vapid: no i need adderall 2016-10-11T18:56:30Z vapid: or opiates 2016-10-11T18:57:31Z ovenpasta: vapid: no way, you'll intoxicate your nervous system. better to clean it with meditation 2016-10-11T18:57:37Z prxq: pipping: i think there is some maintenance going on on common-lisp.net 2016-10-11T18:57:40Z vapid: yolo 2016-10-11T18:57:45Z prxq: these links should work again soon. 2016-10-11T18:58:10Z jasom: pipping: does the groveller of cffi ever link? You mentioned LDFLAGS in your comment on my PR 2016-10-11T18:58:24Z jasom: nevermind, of course it links 2016-10-11T18:58:30Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:58:51Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-11T18:59:26Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2016-10-11T19:03:06Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T19:03:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T19:03:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-11T19:04:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-11T19:04:56Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T19:04:57Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T19:06:53Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-10-11T19:07:26Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T19:08:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-11T19:12:21Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-10-11T19:12:43Z buckybit` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T19:14:04Z pipping: prxq: great, thanks 2016-10-11T19:15:07Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T19:17:31Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T19:19:36Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-11T19:21:32Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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The safety thing? 2016-10-11T19:52:31Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T19:52:33Z Bike: "Cool that you got it started up, less cool about the safety thing" 2016-10-11T19:52:58Z drmeister: Oh - yeah - that's just because I haven't implemented that funcall with no return. 2016-10-11T19:53:06Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-10-11T19:53:13Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: hi 2016-10-11T19:53:14Z Bike: i suppose that means it's doing a fixnum addition? that's good, then 2016-10-11T19:53:23Z drmeister: Also, I need to figure out how cleavir will indicate if safety is off. 2016-10-11T19:53:28Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T19:53:34Z drmeister: I have to go give 4 hours of talks now - I'll be back on after that. 2016-10-11T19:55:33Z drmeister: This was the first real smoke test. It compiled 249 source files 2016-10-11T19:55:37Z Bike: hm. might have to think about that. can't have safety declarations past the ast. maybe generate-ast should have some hook to do the the->typeq conversion itself. 2016-10-11T19:55:39Z drmeister: This was the first real smoke test. It compiled 249 source files 2016-10-11T19:55:54Z Bike: oh yeah, so what happened with that macrolet thing? 2016-10-11T20:02:28Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T20:07:58Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-11T20:07:59Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T20:10:18Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-11T20:14:28Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T20:15:52Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T20:19:31Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T20:20:49Z warweasle quit (Quit: time to go) 2016-10-11T20:20:58Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T20:24:29Z i_o quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T20:29:46Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T20:30:22Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T20:31:37Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-11T20:36:53Z martinlofgren quit (Quit: Lämnar) 2016-10-11T20:38:23Z drmeister: It was a problem in the compiler. I fixed it. 2016-10-11T20:39:27Z mordocai: Saw this thanks to lispm on reddit https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/286. I knew in an abstract sense that this was an issue but not really a formal sense until this was brought up (see the last two comments). 2016-10-11T20:41:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-11T20:43:37Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-11T20:44:48Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T20:46:21Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-10-11T20:50:41Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-11T20:51:36Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-11T20:55:20Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-11T20:55:33Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-11T20:57:41Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-11T20:58:27Z dwrngr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T20:58:37Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-11T21:04:17Z cmatei_ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T21:04:31Z cmatei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T21:04:37Z cmatei_ is now known as cmatei 2016-10-11T21:13:00Z mtd joined #lisp 2016-10-11T21:13:19Z klltkr quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-11T21:15:33Z drmeister: Bike: I ran into an assertion failure 2016-10-11T21:15:54Z drmeister: (CORE::ASSERT-FAILURE (CLEAVIR-TYPE-INFERENCE::VALID-BAG-P CLEAVIR-TYPE-INFERENCE::B) ) 2016-10-11T21:16:10Z drmeister: While compiling ASDF with type inference. 2016-10-11T21:16:27Z drmeister: Why is it when there's trouble - it's always ASDF? 2016-10-11T21:16:30Z Bike: dammit. throw me the value of b in #clasp if you can, but i gotta go afk 2016-10-11T21:16:48Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T21:17:14Z drmeister: Are you back later tonight? 2016-10-11T21:19:14Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-11T21:19:15Z drmeister: It's going to take me some time to dig it out. Clasp doesn't yet have a way to get lexical variables. 2016-10-11T21:22:11Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-10-11T21:22:45Z xantoz joined #lisp 2016-10-11T21:23:50Z pipping: ASDF makes for a good test case for a CL compiler, hm? 2016-10-11T21:23:53Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T21:24:15Z qlkzy_ is now known as qlkzy 2016-10-11T21:24:24Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-11T21:24:28Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T21:31:40Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-11T21:33:49Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-11T21:34:26Z safe joined #lisp 2016-10-11T21:39:30Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-11T21:41:20Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T21:45:29Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-11T21:45:33Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-11T21:47:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T22:00:24Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T22:01:18Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-11T22:01:41Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-10-11T22:03:43Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-11T22:05:01Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T22:05:32Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T22:05:37Z adolf_st_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-11T22:10:15Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T22:10:25Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T22:10:43Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-11T22:12:50Z gigetoo quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-11T22:13:28Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T22:13:29Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-10-11T22:16:13Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T22:17:21Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T22:18:35Z octo_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T22:22:26Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T22:22:50Z nowhereman quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-11T22:23:03Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-11T22:24:10Z nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 2016-10-11T22:29:37Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-11T22:30:18Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-11T22:32:56Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-11T22:40:48Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-11T22:41:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-11T22:47:38Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-11T22:48:07Z |3b|: muyinliu: try putting the %cvSet call inside the with-foreign-object form? i think the memory for the struct is being freed before you pass it to the foreign function 2016-10-11T22:51:59Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-11T22:54:15Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-11T22:57:26Z |3b|: muyinliu: actually, maybe that is just one of those places where cffi's pass-by-value support is broken and hard to fix :/ 2016-10-11T22:59:02Z |3b|: better to just use the pass-by-pointer API when available though, no point in allocating a struct, filling it, then dereferencing that to get a lisp object, freeing the struct, then passing the to a function that will (try to) allocate another struct and fill it from the lisp data, then do a function call through a probably slower API (at least on some lisps) 2016-10-11T23:07:41Z trocado quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T23:09:52Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:14:12Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T23:14:19Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-11T23:14:26Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T23:23:26Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T23:24:03Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:26:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-11T23:28:37Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-11T23:28:37Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-11T23:32:07Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-11T23:33:08Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:36:58Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-11T23:37:42Z lunewa joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:38:01Z zkat: does anyone know what year KR was made? 2016-10-11T23:38:39Z lugus35[m] quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-11T23:38:40Z M-Illandan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-11T23:38:53Z M-moredhel quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-11T23:39:19Z zkat: I know Garnet was written ~1987 2016-10-11T23:39:27Z zkat: but I don't remember if KR itself preceded Garnet 2016-10-11T23:40:03Z raydeejay: depends on how you look at it http://www.cliki.net/KR 2016-10-11T23:40:24Z raydeejay: "Julian Stecklina has taken this out of the Garnet code, ASDF-ified it and fixed some non-standard code." 2016-10-11T23:43:02Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-11T23:43:30Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:46:56Z lunewa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-11T23:47:49Z Quadresce quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-11T23:48:02Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:49:34Z |3b|: zkat: http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA187705 is earliest paper i see about KR, from '87 2016-10-11T23:50:14Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:50:15Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:50:15Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:50:24Z zkat: I'm trying to figure out if there were any actually prototype-based systems that predated Object Lisp. I'll just find some papers on that and see if I can follow the paper trail from there. 2016-10-11T23:51:32Z beaky: hello 2016-10-11T23:53:43Z tobel quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-11T23:54:42Z tobel joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:56:22Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 270 seconds) 2016-10-11T23:57:42Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:59:12Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:59:30Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2016-10-11T23:59:36Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T00:00:02Z JoshYoshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T00:00:09Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:00:09Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2016-10-12T00:00:48Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:01:47Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:03:50Z totimkopf quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-12T00:04:20Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 242 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:04:20Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:05:09Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:05:47Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-12T00:06:05Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:06:55Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:07:34Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:07:37Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-12T00:09:48Z Quadresce quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-12T00:10:02Z |3b|: zkat: ORBIT from '83 might be prototype-based according to https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/lang/lisp/oop/non_clos/corbit/0.html 2016-10-12T00:10:09Z zkat: OH! 2016-10-12T00:10:12Z muyinliu: |3b|: Thanks. Putting the %cvSet call inside the with-foreign-object form act the same. I try it many times. I am curious about how complex structure data storage in memory. For now, I know that a C structure contains only two :int can be convert into a :int64 by this: `(+ val1 (ash val2 32))`. 2016-10-12T00:10:13Z zkat: I'd forgotten about ORBIT! 2016-10-12T00:11:08Z |3b|: muyinliu: C makes no guarantee about how structures are arranged in memory, specific platform/architecture ABIs might specify it though 2016-10-12T00:13:42Z zkat: |3b|: where's the citation for '83? 2016-10-12T00:14:50Z |3b|: "ORBIT: an applicative view of object-oriented programming" Luc Steels 1983 is best i've found, no actual paper though 2016-10-12T00:15:35Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:16:57Z |3b|: that from Steels bibliography at http://www.netlib.org/bibnet/authors/s/steels-luc.pdf which lists another paper from 84 as well 2016-10-12T00:17:00Z M-Illandan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:17:09Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:17:42Z |3b|: muyinliu: you don't get errors from running that code, and it just gives you wrong results? 2016-10-12T00:18:19Z lugus35[m] quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:18:28Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:19:25Z muyinliu: |3b|: No any errors. Not even a memory fault. LLDB can tell that only the data passed was weird. 2016-10-12T00:21:57Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:23:31Z nicdev` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T00:23:53Z asedeno quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T00:23:55Z lancetw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T00:23:58Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:24:16Z asedeno joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:24:20Z lancetw joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:27:46Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:29:09Z drmeister: CFFI questions: Does anyone use (%foreign-funcall name ...) is name supposed to be a string known at compile time or is it evaluated at runtime? 2016-10-12T00:29:25Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:29:37Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:29:48Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2016-10-12T00:30:18Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:31:39Z muyinliu: |3b|: Looks like the Array in memory is much more complex than default type like :int or :double. 2016-10-12T00:31:44Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:33:17Z lugus35[m] quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:37:03Z M-moredhel quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:38:31Z drmeister: Bike: Are you around? 2016-10-12T00:39:02Z drmeister: I have more information on the assert failure while compiling ASDF with type inference. 2016-10-12T00:39:11Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:39:49Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:41:12Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:41:18Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:41:18Z M-Illandan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:41:22Z ghard` joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:42:37Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:43:37Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T00:43:38Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:43:44Z mejja joined #lisp 2016-10-12T00:43:54Z Quadresce quit (Client Quit) 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#lisp 2016-10-12T06:18:43Z shrdlu68: In cl-json, how does one set the default json object->lisp object conversion, such that one gets a hash table instead of an association list by default? 2016-10-12T06:18:57Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T06:19:10Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-12T06:19:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T06:19:51Z shrdlu68: Alists work fine but sometimes the cons will have a list as a cdr, in which case it's a list and alist accessors like assoc won't work. 2016-10-12T06:20:15Z Bike: er, assoc should still work... 2016-10-12T06:23:57Z shrdlu68: Bike: Yes it does, in my confusion I forgot about :test #'equalp for keys which are strings. 2016-10-12T06:24:00Z Bike: well, it's been a while since i used cl json, but i guess you'd bind a bunch of custom variables... 2016-10-12T06:24:52Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T06:25:20Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T06:25:25Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-12T06:25:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-12T06:26:01Z Bike: https://github.com/hankhero/cl-json/blob/6dfebb9540bfc3cc33582d0c03c9ec27cb913e79/src/decoder-args.lisp#L422-L447 something like this but with hash tables. 2016-10-12T06:26:47Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T06:26:48Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T06:27:34Z spacebat` joined #lisp 2016-10-12T06:28:39Z spacebat`: I've found some moribund code to run a swank server in a delivered lispworks application 2016-10-12T06:29:03Z spacebat`: delivered in lispworks means among other things, COMPILE-FILE has been removed from the image 2016-10-12T06:29:37Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T06:29:55Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-12T06:29:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T06:30:25Z spacebat`: I'd like to get a swank server running on a delivered image, but the code I found is really a stub - it loads "swank-compiled-app-loader" which seems lost in the mists of time 2016-10-12T06:30:32Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T06:30:41Z shrdlu68: Bike: I don't see any corresponding varriable for hash-tables, but I can use alists, not that I've figured out what the issue is. 2016-10-12T06:31:10Z Bike: you'd just bind the object parsing variables 2016-10-12T06:31:17Z Bike: have to write the functions yourself, not great, but eh. 2016-10-12T06:31:45Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T06:32:38Z shrdlu68: /s/not that/now that/ 2016-10-12T06:35:17Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T06:35:39Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-12T06:38:00Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T06:43:17Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-12T06:44:57Z M-Illandan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T06:47:07Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T06:50:45Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 2016-10-12T07:01:19Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-12T07:02:15Z 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Anywhere.) 2016-10-12T07:49:14Z vapid joined #lisp 2016-10-12T07:50:14Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-10-12T07:50:18Z vapid is now known as xenti 2016-10-12T07:51:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-12T07:54:56Z backupthrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T07:55:46Z ChoHag joined #lisp 2016-10-12T07:56:25Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-12T07:57:24Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-10-12T07:57:55Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T07:58:18Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:00:21Z backupthrick joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:00:53Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:06:10Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:08:59Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:09:41Z Indecipherable quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-12T08:10:15Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:10:39Z Indecipherable quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-12T08:11:34Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:13:28Z Bike quit (Quit: seeked) 2016-10-12T08:16:14Z backupthrick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-12T08:19:17Z M-moredhel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T08:19:30Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T08:20:18Z backupthrick joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:22:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:22:06Z djh: jasom: Oh, I don't know about that - when it comes to perl, the only thing I hear more often than "it's dead/dying" is "Hi, my clients have a vacancy for a perl dev" :) 2016-10-12T08:23:59Z redeemed joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:24:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:25:52Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:26:30Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-12T08:26:30Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-12T08:27:01Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:29:26Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:31:48Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T08:31:48Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2016-10-12T08:37:01Z backupthrick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-12T08:37:43Z norfumpit quit (Quit: norfumpit) 2016-10-12T08:38:34Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T08:40:20Z ramky is now known as ramky_lunch 2016-10-12T08:40:51Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:42:07Z backupthrick joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:47:41Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:48:08Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-12T08:48:36Z backupthrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T08:49:05Z razzy89____ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T08:49:20Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:49:28Z razzy89___ is now known as razzy89____ 2016-10-12T08:50:25Z razzy89____ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T08:50:31Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:50:35Z razzy89___ is now known as razzy89____ 2016-10-12T08:51:01Z muyinliu: |3b|: I am glad to tell you that I find the solution to pass the value of structure to foreign function with CFFI, please check my answer here: http://stackoverflow.com/a/39942257/2765530 2016-10-12T08:52:37Z razzy89____ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T08:52:40Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:52:42Z backupthrick joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:56:07Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T08:56:19Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-12T08:57:27Z razzy89___ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-12T08:59:38Z mathrick quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-10-12T09:01:33Z backupthrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T09:02:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-12T09:02:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-12T09:02:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-12T09:05:17Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-12T09:05:24Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T09:05:41Z backupthrick joined #lisp 2016-10-12T09:08:02Z xenti is now known as vapid 2016-10-12T09:10:33Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T09:10:40Z vapid is now known as xenti 2016-10-12T09:10:59Z xenti is now known as vapid 2016-10-12T09:13:42Z varjag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T09:15:26Z White_Flame: with usocket, if I wanted to add a custom "wake up now" entry to the wait-for-input (basically unix 'select'), how could I do that? do I have to basically create a loopback socket and stuff it into the list? 2016-10-12T09:16:17Z White_Flame: I know way back in my C days, I could have some simple descriptor tucked into the list given to select, and use it to interrupt the timeout wait 2016-10-12T09:17:09Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-12T09:17:19Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-12T09:20:54Z gniourf joined #lisp 2016-10-12T09:22:27Z jackdaniel: serve-event has a similar purpose 2016-10-12T09:22:33Z jackdaniel: (as connect) 2016-10-12T09:23:12Z jackdaniel: s/connect/select/ 2016-10-12T09:29:40Z White_Flame: documentation seems lacking on the sbcl side 2016-10-12T09:31:29Z jackdaniel: it's taken from cmucl 2016-10-12T09:31:39Z jackdaniel: afaik its present on cmucl, sbcl, ecl and clasp 2016-10-12T09:32:04Z jackdaniel: I think others doesn't have it – either way I'd try in cmucl documentation 2016-10-12T09:33:59Z White_Flame: yeah, I saw the cmucl docs. sticking for portable at the moment, but certainly noted this 2016-10-12T09:37:20Z jackdaniel: I wonder if osicat would accept serve-event implementation (it uses ffi anyways) 2016-10-12T09:37:34Z jackdaniel: then it would be semi-portable 2016-10-12T09:38:34Z jackdaniel: luis`: ↑ ? 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(www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-12T10:06:33Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T10:12:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T10:12:42Z abbe_ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T10:12:42Z abbe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T10:13:35Z abbe_ is now known as abbe 2016-10-12T10:13:42Z attila_lendvai: iolib has nice infrastructure for this 2016-10-12T10:15:20Z pipping: attila_lendvai: quicklisp has lowered the expectation for how difficult installing a CL library so far, though, that having to manually install a C library seems like far too much to ask 2016-10-12T10:15:46Z pipping: s/so far/should be/ (wonder how I managed to typo that up) 2016-10-12T10:15:52Z XachX_: Sorry 2016-10-12T10:16:15Z pipping: XachX_: heh 2016-10-12T10:16:15Z chrpape` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-12T10:16:37Z attila_lendvai: that's understandable, but ql is just a convenience... if you need iolib, then its install is not very complicated 2016-10-12T10:21:45Z pipping: right. assuming you're allowed to install libfixposix to /usr/local. if you want it to go to ~/whatever, you need to find a way to pass the necessary CPPFLAGS and LDFLAGS through CFFI. Which is currently not an area where CFFI shines. 2016-10-12T10:25:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T10:27:00Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend.) 2016-10-12T10:30:26Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-12T10:32:29Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-12T10:35:09Z pipping: attila_lendvai: like e.g. https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/toolchain/c-toolchain.lisp#L116-L117 2016-10-12T10:36:48Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-12T10:36:54Z pipping: which suggests that the only thing you could modify to pass in LDFLAGS would be *cc-flags*; those are also used for everything else, though. so if there's something that e.g. your compiler will only accept when linking but not when compiling, you're out of luck 2016-10-12T10:37:20Z razzy89___ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T10:38:25Z jackdaniel: nomen omen I think serve-event would blend nicely in osicat, what do you think? 2016-10-12T10:39:42Z vento joined #lisp 2016-10-12T10:39:48Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-10-12T10:44:57Z attila_lendvai: pipping: as you know that'll be fixed/merged soon 2016-10-12T10:45:17Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T10:46:12Z pipping: attila_lendvai: if you're referring to PR 91, that does not address what I'm saying. 2016-10-12T10:47:24Z attila_lendvai is apparently not well versed in the C build voodoo 2016-10-12T10:48:18Z pipping: attila_lendvai: I have raised this issue in that context, yes (part 1 of https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/91#issuecomment-244789585) but it was not met with interest (granted, I also didn't submit a patch) 2016-10-12T10:49:37Z lugus35[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T10:49:49Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-12T10:50:13Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2016-10-12T10:50:19Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2016-10-12T10:51:59Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-12T10:53:17Z pipping: (to be precise: what PR 91 addresses is: you don't need to manually set *cc-flags* -- you can use the environment variable CFLAGS instead. I'm arguing that you should have at least CFLAGS and LDFLAGS, though; ideally also CPPFLAGS) 2016-10-12T10:54:15Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-12T10:55:21Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-12T10:58:57Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T11:04:55Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:05:33Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:06:11Z arbv quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.1.1) 2016-10-12T11:07:37Z M-Illandan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T11:07:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:08:06Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:10:17Z NhanH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T11:10:58Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:12:34Z NhanH joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:12:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-12T11:12:48Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T11:13:56Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:16:26Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-12T11:16:57Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T11:18:59Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:19:05Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:20:39Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:23:04Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T11:23:17Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:25:55Z arbv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T11:25:55Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:26:41Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:28:13Z lost3times joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:29:22Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-12T11:30:26Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T11:31:37Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T11:32:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:37:50Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:38:57Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:42:04Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:44:05Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-12T11:48:37Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T11:48:49Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-12T11:49:24Z thinkpad left #lisp 2016-10-12T11:53:30Z RichardPaulBck[m: Is anyone of you using Roswell and getting errors when you quickload cffi-toolchain? I get some error with asdf-compat.lisp. I've found an answer on stackoverflow to just use the newest SBCL but this didn't fix it. 2016-10-12T11:54:10Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:54:40Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-12T11:55:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T11:55:14Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-12T11:55:50Z Xach: RichardPaulBck[m: what version of sbcl are you using? 2016-10-12T11:57:58Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-12T12:00:21Z RichardPaulBck[m: 1.3.10 2016-10-12T12:00:22Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:00:35Z RichardPaulBck[m: But it failed at 1.2.7 too 2016-10-12T12:02:09Z RichardPaulBck[m: I am currently working with 1.2.4 and an older version of cffi-toolchain. This just works fine. But as soon as I update to the newest version it breaks. Effectively it stops me from using caveman2 with the newest libraries. 2016-10-12T12:03:06Z Xach: RichardPaulBck[m: I don't know the answer directly, but I can try to help if you're up for it. Can you paste the transcript of what's failing to paste.lisp.org? 2016-10-12T12:03:22Z Xach will happily defer to someone who knows exactly what's up 2016-10-12T12:03:34Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:05:34Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:05:34Z cpc26 quit (Changing host) 2016-10-12T12:05:34Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:07:43Z RichardPaulBck[m: http://paste.lisp.org/display/328367 2016-10-12T12:08:44Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:09:03Z Xach: RichardPaulBck[m: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "uiop")? 2016-10-12T12:09:23Z RichardPaulBck[m: #P"/usr/share/common-lisp/source/cl-asdf/uiop/" 2016-10-12T12:09:30Z Xach: Ok! That is a big problem. 2016-10-12T12:09:42Z Xach: the cl-asdf package is interfering with the asdf package provided by sbcl. 2016-10-12T12:09:47Z RichardPaulBck[m: Let me guess: the debian package is too old. 2016-10-12T12:09:53Z Xach: If you remove it, I think you will make progress. 2016-10-12T12:10:09Z RichardPaulBck[m: Thank you very much! I will give it a try. 2016-10-12T12:12:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:13:36Z RichardPaulBck[m: It worked!!! I can even finally use Osicat again! <3 2016-10-12T12:14:11Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:15:58Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-12T12:16:40Z pipping: (hardly a day passes without anyone hitting this: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/92) 2016-10-12T12:18:05Z pipping: (cl-asdf on debian jessie is at 3.1.4 which is not *that* old after all) 2016-10-12T12:20:08Z Xach: RichardPaulBck[m: yay! 2016-10-12T12:20:17Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T12:20:26Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:21:19Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T12:22:37Z M-moredhel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T12:26:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:26:42Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-10-12T12:26:57Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T12:28:58Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:31:09Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:33:08Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-12T12:33:58Z RichardPaulBck[m 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And distros can even be faster than quicklisp e.g. by backporting fixes from releases that aren't on quicklisp yet or patching things on their own when no formal release has been made 2016-10-12T15:24:20Z raydeejay: yeah but I don't run gentoo these days ;-) 2016-10-12T15:25:45Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:25:58Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T15:25:58Z M-moredhel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T15:25:58Z M-Illandan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T15:25:59Z lugus35[m] quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-12T15:26:50Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-12T15:28:24Z pipping: right. gentoo's asdf (unless you run stable) is at 3.1.7 e.g. 2016-10-12T15:28:31Z mordocai: Gentoo's sbcl package annoyed me. They ship their own asdf and override the sbcl one so it'd sometimes break when sbcl was updated but they hadn't yet updated asdf 2016-10-12T15:31:36Z Indecipherable quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/rWAnqP3.jpg) 2016-10-12T15:32:40Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-12T15:33:34Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:33:42Z b3z quit (Quit: b3z) 2016-10-12T15:34:02Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-10-12T15:34:03Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:35:37Z pipping: mordocai: are you still on gentoo? 2016-10-12T15:35:38Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:36:41Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-12T15:37:05Z mordocai: pipping: Not at the moment. Switched back to debian for now due to convenience 2016-10-12T15:37:19Z mordocai: If I look at another alternative it'll probably be guix 2016-10-12T15:37:40Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-12T15:38:12Z dwchandler is now known as dwc 2016-10-12T15:38:34Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:40:42Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:41:24Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:41:24Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:41:24Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:42:26Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-12T15:44:23Z deank joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:48:30Z backupthrick quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-12T15:50:01Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:50:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:52:10Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:54:10Z backupthrick joined #lisp 2016-10-12T15:55:37Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:00:42Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-12T16:02:07Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:02:12Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2016-10-12T16:02:57Z NhanH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:04:24Z NhanH joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:06:17Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:09:17Z lugus35[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:09:58Z pierpa quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-10-12T16:10:53Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:11:15Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:12:06Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:13:04Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:15:48Z john-mcaleely quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-12T16:16:01Z john-mcaleely joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:16:08Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:16:19Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2016-10-12T16:19:14Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:20:16Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:20:20Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:24:35Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2016-10-12T16:30:21Z TruePika: ...I really need to get Reddit to stop e-mailing me message notifications 2016-10-12T16:30:32Z TruePika: I go to Reddit enough that I don't need those e-mails 2016-10-12T16:32:11Z TruePika: there we go, now to code again :) 2016-10-12T16:33:57Z lugus35[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:34:17Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:34:31Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:35:17Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:36:05Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:36:40Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:40:55Z hatfolk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-12T16:41:08Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:42:20Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:42:56Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:43:38Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:48:35Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:51:22Z djh: when faced with (cond ((foo) (do-stuff (foo)))) what's the nicest way to avoid calling foo twice? 2016-10-12T16:51:49Z antoszka: use acond 2016-10-12T16:51:53Z antoszka: Graham's macro 2016-10-12T16:51:58Z dlowe: or when-let 2016-10-12T16:52:02Z dlowe: if you only have one condition 2016-10-12T16:52:07Z antoszka: yeah 2016-10-12T16:52:26Z dlowe: acond isn't very satisfying, imho 2016-10-12T16:52:29Z djh: no, it's a multiple condition thing, just one of them has the double-foo issue 2016-10-12T16:52:42Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:52:50Z djh: (Basically it's PAIP exercise 2.1 and I don't like my current solution) 2016-10-12T16:53:37Z backupthrick quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:54:08Z dlowe: anyway, if you want to use it, it's package anaphora 2016-10-12T16:54:26Z djh: Cheers. Is that something from On Lisp? I'm only partway through that atm 2016-10-12T16:54:29Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:55:01Z dlowe: there's a lot more in anaphora than the macros in On Lisp 2016-10-12T16:56:08Z dlowe: Not sure what the history of use is. They're in On Lisp, but it seems like an obvious idea given non-hygienic macros 2016-10-12T16:56:52Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:56:52Z djh: I'll see if I come across it when I read further :) Was just wondering 2016-10-12T16:56:55Z gale__ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:56:57Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:57:23Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T16:57:25Z gale__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T16:57:38Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-12T16:57:41Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2016-10-12T16:58:37Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T16:59:30Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-12T17:02:09Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-12T17:02:37Z woona quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T17:05:49Z backupthrick joined #lisp 2016-10-12T17:07:51Z woona joined #lisp 2016-10-12T17:08:17Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T17:08:27Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-12T17:08:42Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-12T17:08:57Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T17:09:10Z nilof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T17:09:12Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2016-10-12T17:09:34Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2016-10-12T17:11:09Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2016-10-12T17:11:21Z optikalmouse quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-12T17:16:05Z fortitude joined #lisp 2016-10-12T17:16:07Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-12T17:16:37Z mbrock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T17:19:00Z o`connor: (mapM #'do-stuff (to-maybe (foo))) 2016-10-12T17:19:38Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-12T17:20:24Z mbrock joined #lisp 2016-10-12T17:22:07Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T17:22:24Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-12T17:23:16Z RichardPaulBck[m: pipping: I used the cl-asdf of testing and it worked. 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If I use a quicklisp distribution with two different CLs, potentially on different OS's (guest and host via a shared folder), when I go to actually quickload systems on one OS, will I be creating situations that will require clearing caches in order to ql systems from the same dist on a new os? 2016-10-12T18:31:26Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-12T18:31:57Z jrpls quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T18:32:05Z Xach: rumbler31: the main issue is if the namestring syntax is too different. caches are automatically separated. 2016-10-12T18:32:38Z rumbler31: can you elaborate a little on the namestring thing? where in this process would such a thing cause problems? 2016-10-12T18:33:13Z Xach: rumbler31: if one implementation uses a namestring of "foo\\bar.asd" and another uses "foo/bar.asd", for example. or "foo/bar>.asd" and "foo/bar.asd" 2016-10-12T18:33:15Z yeticry quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-12T18:33:18Z Xach: Those are things that can and have happened. 2016-10-12T18:33:51Z Xach: namestring syntax is implementation-defined so it's not the implementation's fault. things often, but not always, just work. 2016-10-12T18:34:28Z Xach: One option is for quicklisp to invent a new namestring-like syntax that is translated 2016-10-12T18:35:57Z rumbler31: I guess what I really care about at this point, is being able to make downloaded systems available to both dists without having to hop back and forth, without necessarily downloading the world (I'm not that limited). If I did someething where I used two ql dists and symlinked, say, the archives folder, would that be enough to prevent a ql dist from trying to fetch a new archive from the internet? 2016-10-12T18:37:13Z rumbler31: or would more be involved? 2016-10-12T18:39:16Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-10-12T18:39:30Z RichardPaulBck[m: pipping: No, you did't misunderstand it, I removed it. But I was using stumpwm from Debian and wanted to keep it (never change a running system). So I tried the "testing" package of "cl-asdf" and it worked. 2016-10-12T18:39:52Z RichardPaulBck[m: I think its version there is 3.1.7 2016-10-12T18:41:04Z jrpls joined #lisp 2016-10-12T18:41:39Z RichardPaulBck[m: rumbler31: I guess it would do the trick because this works on the same host too (at least for the entire quicklisp folder). But as Xach mentioned you have to watch out for the implementation and plattform specifics. 2016-10-12T18:42:07Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-10-12T18:45:07Z rumbler31: I just meant from the perspective of ql needing to go fetch an archive in the event that it isn't installed, is it enough for ql to notice that the appropriate archive is already downloaded. I suppose I'll have a gander at the code 2016-10-12T18:45:28Z slowup left #lisp 2016-10-12T18:47:17Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T18:48:00Z klltkr quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-12T18:49:01Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-12T18:49:19Z saturniid joined #lisp 2016-10-12T18:51:05Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T18:51:05Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T18:54:26Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-12T18:57:25Z z3r0_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-12T19:01:35Z pipping: I thought I had read that testing was on 3.1.4; what you need for the cffi/os-cond issue is at least 3.1.6, so that makes a difference here. 2016-10-12T19:03:37Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T19:04:28Z b3z quit (Quit: b3z) 2016-10-12T19:04:52Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-12T19:06:39Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-12T19:08:13Z waynecolvin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T19:08:40Z cmack quit (Remote host closed 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rumbler31: ok... quicklisp-slime-helper or the melpa version? 2016-10-12T19:31:40Z twokays joined #lisp 2016-10-12T19:32:29Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T19:33:53Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-12T19:34:57Z saturniid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T19:35:25Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-12T19:38:17Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T19:41:59Z Baggers: rumbler31: quicklisp-slime-helper 2016-10-12T19:42:43Z Baggers: rumbler31: that would be my vote anyway, have been using it for a couple of years and never had it go wrong, all updates have been smooth 2016-10-12T19:43:22Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-12T19:44:01Z twokays quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-12T19:44:35Z rumbler31: so I should uninstall the melpa version from emacs? 2016-10-12T19:45:27Z madbub joined #lisp 2016-10-12T19:46:27Z Baggers: rumbler31: I would think so, I cant imagine two copies playing well together 2016-10-12T19:48:19Z rumbler31: cheers 2016-10-12T19:49:36Z saturniid joined #lisp 2016-10-12T19:49:49Z antonv` joined #lisp 2016-10-12T19:50:59Z warweasle` quit (Quit: working on life...) 2016-10-12T19:53:30Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-12T19:53:46Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-10-12T19:53:46Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-12T19:54:17Z saturniid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T19:55:11Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-12T19:55:33Z saturniid joined #lisp 2016-10-12T19:56:30Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-10-12T19:56:37Z benny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T19:59:44Z benny joined #lisp 2016-10-12T20:02:04Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-12T20:03:17Z antonv` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T20:05:38Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-12T20:06:23Z waynecolvin joined #lisp 2016-10-12T20:07:28Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-12T20:10:36Z rippa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-12T20:10:48Z fouric: question: how does Quicklisp avoid generating extra stack frames when you repeatedly invoke the CONTINUE restart when getting the SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND condition? 2016-10-12T20:11:20Z fouric: I see that it has a recursive local function RECURSE that is called...if the user chooses the CONTINUE restart? 2016-10-12T20:11:45Z fouric: ...but when I try to do roughly the same thing with my code, I get an extra stack frame in SLIME for every time that I invoke that restart. 2016-10-12T20:11:57Z fouric: What am I doing wrong or misunderstanding? 2016-10-12T20:15:10Z lisper22 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-12T20:15:57Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T20:22:18Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-12T20:22:37Z waynecolvin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-12T20:23:04Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2016-10-12T20:26:23Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2016-10-12T20:28:23Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T20:29:04Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-12T20:29:25Z MoALTz quit (Ping 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Still need to make a few changes before people try and use it and it's very alpha :) 2016-10-12T22:43:30Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-12T22:44:17Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T22:49:15Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-12T22:59:56Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:01:45Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-12T23:02:00Z rtmpdavid joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:05:18Z waynecolvin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-12T23:06:08Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:20:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T23:20:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:21:55Z waynecolvin joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:23:10Z lisper22 joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:24:00Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:25:32Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-12T23:27:03Z jrpls_ left #lisp 2016-10-12T23:28:04Z nilof joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:39:28Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-12T23:43:08Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-12T23:43:19Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:44:15Z brucem quit (Changing host) 2016-10-12T23:44:15Z brucem joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:50:01Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:53:25Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:57:27Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-10-12T23:58:57Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T00:01:00Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-13T00:02:13Z spacebat` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T00:03:47Z DavidGu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T00:05:10Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-13T00:05:29Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T00:07:34Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-13T00:09:13Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-13T00:13:16Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-13T00:18:56Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T00:19:55Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-13T00:22:40Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-13T00:24:49Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-13T00:28:21Z ssice quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T00:29:45Z razzy89___ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T00:33:00Z Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 2016-10-13T00:46:40Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T00:51:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T01:01:55Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-13T01:03:19Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-13T01:04:00Z backupthrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T01:12:09Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-13T01:15:20Z backupthrick joined #lisp 2016-10-13T01:21:10Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T01:22:23Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-13T01:26:47Z bitch quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T01:28:54Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I am not familiar with wayland. 2016-10-13T08:02:45Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-13T08:04:53Z b3atr joined #lisp 2016-10-13T08:05:03Z xificurC: I have an xml document I'd need to transform into a file that is read by a custom parser. Basically the XML tree is represented differently as an indented and syntactically sugared version of it. Does anyone have any examples for me? I'm looking at the CXML package and there's so many things in it I have no idea how could I succintly define a trans 2016-10-13T08:05:03Z xificurC: formation of the XML nodes 2016-10-13T08:05:03Z b3atr: how to compile the whole file in slime? 2016-10-13T08:05:24Z jackdaniel: b3atr: C-c C-k in a file buffer 2016-10-13T08:05:50Z b3atr: jackdaniel, after that I loose repl prompt 2016-10-13T08:06:21Z jackdaniel: when the compilation is finished, repl should be back 2016-10-13T08:07:04Z b3atr: jackdaniel, compilation finished in blah blah but the prompt is not shown 2016-10-13T08:07:27Z jackdaniel: C-x b 2016-10-13T08:07:32Z jackdaniel: repl [TAB] [RET] 2016-10-13T08:07:48Z jackdaniel: or C-z from the file buffer I suppose 2016-10-13T08:09:28Z b3atr: jackdaniel, the prompt seems to work but the astrisk doesn't show up 2016-10-13T08:09:41Z b3atr: jackdaniel, it's just ;; common lisp comment 2016-10-13T08:10:11Z b3atr: jackdaniel, * is been overwritten by compilation log 2016-10-13T08:10:27Z jackdaniel: are you sure you are not in the *inferior-lisp* buffer? 2016-10-13T08:11:31Z b3atr: jackdaniel, no 2016-10-13T08:11:45Z b3atr: jackdaniel, i am 2016-10-13T08:12:15Z b3atr: jackdaniel, where should I be/what should I do? 2016-10-13T08:12:53Z jackdaniel: you should be in *slime-repl sbcl* buffer (or something of this kind) for prompt 2016-10-13T08:13:02Z jackdaniel: prompt looks like "CL-USER>" 2016-10-13T08:13:29Z b3atr: jackdaniel, how? 2016-10-13T08:13:48Z b3atr: jackdaniel, i call slime then I go to inferior-lisp 2016-10-13T08:14:31Z jackdaniel: when you call slime with "M-x slime" you should land in slime repl without going anywhere (after it is loaded) 2016-10-13T08:14:35Z jackdaniel: with prompt CL-USER> 2016-10-13T08:14:56Z b3atr: jackdaniel, what's your lisp implementaion? i use sbcl 2016-10-13T08:15:17Z jackdaniel: atm I have sbcl too 2016-10-13T08:16:07Z b3atr: jackdaniel, i only add (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/bin/sbcl") to my init.el 2016-10-13T08:16:13Z b3atr: err, added 2016-10-13T08:16:42Z jackdaniel: that should do it, you need also (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) 2016-10-13T08:17:00Z b3atr: jackdaniel, i've installed slime by cask 2016-10-13T08:17:15Z jackdaniel: I can't help in that case, I don't know what cask is 2016-10-13T08:23:03Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-13T08:27:44Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-10-13T08:29:53Z smokeink: is there any good sourcecode search engine for lisp codes? github's search doesn't allow search through all projects any more 2016-10-13T08:34:36Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-13T08:37:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-13T08:37:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-13T08:37:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-13T08:38:16Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-13T08:38:33Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-10-13T08:39:39Z splittist: smokeink: you could download everything in quicklisp locally and roll your own (: 2016-10-13T08:40:28Z Bike: minion: memo for beach: shinmera's metrics suggest compiling with type inference is pretty slow, so i'd like to allow making it conditional on optimize compilation-speed; but inference is HIR level and optimize info is supposed to be gone. i think some rethinking might be necessary 2016-10-13T08:40:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2016-10-13T08:49:25Z deank quit 2016-10-13T08:49:49Z titankiller quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T08:51:11Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-13T08:57:49Z dim: http://prog21.dadgum.com --- I keep wondering how much of that applies to Common Lisp really, where you can use defstruct and high-level function (embedding slot names, easy to read code) that are compiled down to array accesses 2016-10-13T08:57:54Z dim: best of both worlds? 2016-10-13T09:00:02Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-13T09:02:10Z jdz: dim: you mean http://prog21.dadgum.com/223.html ? 2016-10-13T09:03:14Z dim: yes 2016-10-13T09:16:59Z tomaw quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-13T09:17:01Z woona quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-13T09:17:02Z jurov quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-13T09:17:02Z Zotan quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-13T09:17:04Z j0ni quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-13T09:17:04Z |3b| quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-13T09:17:04Z lieven quit (*.net *.split) 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timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-13T10:44:32Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T10:44:45Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-13T10:45:29Z beaky: howd o you represent ASTs in common lisp 2016-10-13T10:46:23Z flip214: as a tree 2016-10-13T10:46:29Z varjag: as any other tree 2016-10-13T10:46:29Z beaky: is it wrong to use lists 2016-10-13T10:46:33Z beaky: ah 2016-10-13T10:46:33Z jackdaniel: which is abstract and syntax :P 2016-10-13T10:46:52Z varjag: no, it's in fact the easiest way 2016-10-13T10:46:52Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-13T10:46:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T10:46:56Z Guest21891 is now known as AntiSpamMeta 2016-10-13T10:47:23Z beaky: wow i guess so 2016-10-13T10:47:39Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-13T10:47:52Z varjag: nested non-circular lists are basically trees 2016-10-13T10:48:37Z billstclair joined #lisp 2016-10-13T10:48:38Z beaky: hmm are asts cyclical graphs too (for e.g. recursion) 2016-10-13T10:48:46Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2016-10-13T10:48:49Z Guest33550 is now known as Tristam 2016-10-13T10:49:08Z Tristam quit (Changing host) 2016-10-13T10:49:08Z Tristam joined #lisp 2016-10-13T10:49:25Z White_Flame: it really depends on what your AST holds 2016-10-13T10:49:30Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-13T10:50:09Z White_Flame: ASTs often won't chain through function calls (recursive or not) 2016-10-13T10:50:18Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-13T10:50:19Z White_Flame: but merely have a function call node that's later optimized 2016-10-13T10:50:30Z beaky: ah tha tis good (i will just hold sql in my ast) 2016-10-13T10:50:33Z raydeejay: well first you get the tree 2016-10-13T10:50:36Z White_Flame: there's no "standard" AST 2016-10-13T10:50:37Z raydeejay: then you transform it 2016-10-13T10:50:39Z raydeejay: no? 2016-10-13T10:51:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T10:54:03Z NhanH joined #lisp 2016-10-13T10:56:00Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-13T10:57:05Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 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I remember reading somewhere that everything is compiled in SBCL 2016-10-13T13:06:46Z dmiles: TMA, no problem 2016-10-13T13:07:32Z dmiles: scymtym: well good.. i might need to test the differnce with cl-bench 2016-10-13T13:07:44Z scymtym: TMA: well, by default, almost everything is compiled. so that's mostly true in practice 2016-10-13T13:08:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:09:10Z dmiles: mentally i file SBCL as the fastest lisp.. thus i file its interpretor as being considered the fastest interpretor.. so wanted to use that as a baseline against one i am working on 2016-10-13T13:09:20Z b3atr joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:09:21Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:09:29Z logstash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T13:09:58Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:10:13Z logstash joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:10:39Z logstash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T13:11:33Z MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz 2016-10-13T13:12:49Z logstash joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:14:37Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T13:16:42Z logstash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T13:17:05Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:17:09Z logstash joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:17:24Z logstash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T13:17:49Z logstash joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:21:04Z alienbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T13:21:57Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-13T13:22:13Z b3atr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-13T13:23:49Z scymtym: dmiles: the new, fast interpreter is significantly faster than old one. beyond that, i don't know whether and how its performance has been evaluated. its mainly optimized for latency, meaning that is does almost no work up front and does everything (e.g. macroexpansion) lazily 2016-10-13T13:25:48Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-13T13:25:53Z dmiles: secretly, i slightly suspect that interpretation of an AST is not magitures slower than trying to compile 2016-10-13T13:26:25Z dmiles: secretly, i slightly suspect that interpretation of an AST is not magitures slower than runing a compiled version 2016-10-13T13:27:01Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:29:59Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:30:19Z dmiles: oh here i go: http://picolisp.com/wiki/?needforspeed " sbcl(i) " 2016-10-13T13:30:42Z warweasle quit (Quit: random stuff...) 2016-10-13T13:31:01Z b3atr joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:31:29Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:31:39Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:31:42Z jackdaniel: I think there was response for that from one of the SBCL developers (don't know where), which pointed out dozen of methodological manipulations 2016-10-13T13:32:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:35:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T13:35:32Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:37:09Z b3atr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-13T13:37:30Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T13:38:26Z ghard`` quit (Read error: Network is unreachable) 2016-10-13T13:39:37Z beaky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T13:39:51Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:40:03Z ghard`` left #lisp 2016-10-13T13:40:42Z beaky joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:40:48Z ghard joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:42:47Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-10-13T13:42:48Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:44:29Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T13:44:49Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:48:50Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T13:50:28Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-13T13:51:41Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:55:00Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:55:32Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-13T13:55:32Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:56:27Z dmiles: so if there is a 20x - 30x differnce in speed of the SBCL interp and compiled.. this tells me other lisp chould also have this spread 2016-10-13T13:56:28Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:56:52Z Fare: Hi. 2016-10-13T13:57:03Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:57:07Z fe[nl]ix: hi Fare 2016-10-13T13:57:16Z dmiles: so if UABCL is only 3x faster in compiled mode, what should that tell me? 2016-10-13T13:57:40Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-13T13:57:57Z dmiles: Is it telling me the Interpreter is godlike? i doubt it :P 2016-10-13T13:59:48Z Fare: the the compiler sucks? 2016-10-13T14:00:05Z Fare: that it's not providing .NET enough type information to do a useful job. 2016-10-13T14:00:53Z dmiles: well has much room for improvements for sure .. though i also i need to confirm that is the same spread for ABCL 2016-10-13T14:01:10Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T14:01:26Z |3b| has the impression the default sbcl interpreter is pretty slow... most implementations probably put more work into interpreter and less into compiler so would have lower spread 2016-10-13T14:01:41Z logstash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T14:02:13Z dmiles: |3b|: probably ... perhaps ECL can be ran in both modes 2016-10-13T14:02:31Z Fare: Realization: asdf isn't plan then perform, as naively modeled by asdf1, but nested plan then perform: the shape of an asdf build is an arbitrary parenthesization of plan (= left paren) and perform (=right paren). 2016-10-13T14:02:40Z jackdaniel: dmiles: ecl always precompiles code, but it may precompile it to bytecode or to native (via c compiler) 2016-10-13T14:02:53Z dmiles: jackdaniel :( 2016-10-13T14:03:42Z dmiles: the frowny is just i need a lisp that developed both strongly 2016-10-13T14:03:51Z Fare: jackdaniel: is the failure in asdf/test/test-bundle.script an asdf bug or an ecl bug? There's a function missing from the .o file. 2016-10-13T14:04:08Z Fare: but only the second time around, or something. 2016-10-13T14:04:26Z jackdaniel: I don't know, didn't investigate that - just reported to pipping 2016-10-13T14:04:30Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-13T14:04:34Z |3b|: the other sbcl interpreter was intended for speed i think, so might be more interesting for that comparison 2016-10-13T14:05:29Z dmiles: after i see the spread on ABCL interpreted vs compiled on cl-bench .. I'll try STELLA JVM lisp 2016-10-13T14:05:47Z jackdaniel: dmiles: where did you get cl-bench from? 2016-10-13T14:05:50Z dwrngr: in sbcl i presume you are setting *evaluator-mode* to :interpret ? 2016-10-13T14:05:57Z dwrngr: otherwise it compiles everything first anyway 2016-10-13T14:06:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-13T14:06:22Z dmiles: i doing it from teh SVN instead of GIT since its easier for me to drive arround 2016-10-13T14:06:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T14:06:39Z dmiles: (to jackdaniels) 2016-10-13T14:06:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-13T14:06:54Z jackdaniel: I have cleaned up it a bit here https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/cl-bench fwiw 2016-10-13T14:07:42Z dmiles: sinc ei am editing the sysdeps slightly to get interpred and compiled ruls.. 2016-10-13T14:07:52Z dmiles: how do you get intepreted run on ABCL ? 2016-10-13T14:08:27Z dmiles: i been doing just: (defun cl-bench::bench-gc () ) (load "do-interpret-script.lisp") 2016-10-13T14:08:53Z jackdaniel: load-source-op vs load-op in asdf afaik (I haven't worked on it for some time) 2016-10-13T14:10:10Z jackdaniel: if the implementation precompiles code there is not much you can do portably, scripts you mention are in deprecated/ directory 2016-10-13T14:10:26Z Fare: jackdaniel, I *suspect* it's an ECL bug, because it works on MKCL. But there have been stranger bugs in ASDF, so it needs not be. 2016-10-13T14:10:46Z Fare: load-source-op is not strongly supported. 2016-10-13T14:11:24Z Fare: it works for simple code, but may not work in combination with cffi or other extensions. 2016-10-13T14:11:55Z jackdaniel: happily cl-bench doesn't depend on asdf extensions nor cffi 2016-10-13T14:12:11Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-13T14:12:11Z jackdaniel: but maybe it will be a good idea to get back to the old method 2016-10-13T14:12:23Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2016-10-13T14:12:25Z deank quit 2016-10-13T14:12:25Z dmiles: how about Logical pathnames? :) 2016-10-13T14:12:39Z Fare: logical pathnames are of the devil 2016-10-13T14:12:47Z dmiles: indeed 2016-10-13T14:13:05Z jackdaniel: they are great idea which is sadly underspecified 2016-10-13T14:13:37Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-13T14:14:04Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T14:14:47Z Fare: great idea for the 1970s 2016-10-13T14:14:55Z mach joined #lisp 2016-10-13T14:15:10Z dwrngr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T14:15:13Z jackdaniel: you have mispelled "from" 2016-10-13T14:15:26Z jackdaniel: either way I need to go, see you later o/ 2016-10-13T14:15:46Z Fare: unusable in practice. The CL standard committee failed to factor the standard so parts could be delegated. 2016-10-13T14:15:56Z Fare: see you 2016-10-13T14:16:55Z Fare: logical pathnames don't solve any problem, they only push it back to the system administrator. Unhappily, there is none, and/or it's you -- so they haven't solved the issue for anyone (anymore). 2016-10-13T14:17:34Z Fare: they made a lot of sense when every system had a full time system administrator. 2016-10-13T14:19:23Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-10-13T14:20:27Z H4ns: logical pathnames are symbolic links done right. :D 2016-10-13T14:22:21Z Munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T14:23:01Z deank joined #lisp 2016-10-13T14:23:02Z Fare: or rather, wrong 2016-10-13T14:23:22Z Fare: they are the centralized bureaucracy of symlinks. 2016-10-13T14:24:41Z Fare: as long as you're your own communist dictator on your own (family's) machine, that works great, I suppose. 2016-10-13T14:26:19Z sandos joined #lisp 2016-10-13T14:26:52Z vento quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-13T14:27:03Z H4ns: that is 100% untrue, but i leave you with your opinion. 2016-10-13T14:27:44Z Fare: Where do you define your logical pathnames? How do you share them with others? 2016-10-13T14:27:52Z Fare: gtg 2016-10-13T14:27:56Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-13T14:28:04Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T14:28:59Z b3atr joined #lisp 2016-10-13T14:30:53Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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LET is almost always more clear. 2016-10-13T15:37:27Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-13T15:39:26Z trn quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-13T15:39:57Z raydeejay: hmmm 2016-10-13T15:40:02Z raydeejay leaves for a while 2016-10-13T15:40:34Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-13T15:40:58Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-13T15:42:15Z dwrngr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T15:43:35Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2016-10-13T15:46:15Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-13T15:51:59Z Guest89388 quit 2016-10-13T15:52:20Z rann joined #lisp 2016-10-13T15:52:56Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-10-13T15:58:34Z asda is now known as adsa 2016-10-13T15:58:41Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:00:11Z Xach: Le/win 3 2016-10-13T16:00:17Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T16:00:27Z dyelar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T16:01:39Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:02:54Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:04:23Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:08:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-13T16:10:51Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:10:59Z ak5 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T16:11:18Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:15:16Z phoe: le window no. 3 2016-10-13T16:15:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-13T16:16:30Z Moleboy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T16:19:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:24:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T16:25:32Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:29:58Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-13T16:35:36Z pocket joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:37:56Z MoALTz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T16:38:45Z akkad: irc is hard 2016-10-13T16:39:59Z pocket quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T16:40:12Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:40:34Z drmeister: With ratio's, how is 10/20 reduced to 1/2 when the ratio is created? 2016-10-13T16:42:00Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T16:44:24Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T16:44:54Z adsa is now known as ilorp 2016-10-13T16:45:02Z payphone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T16:45:15Z payphone joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:46:29Z OxOO quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-13T16:47:33Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-13T16:47:49Z thomas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T16:47:59Z thomas joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:48:30Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-13T16:48:57Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:51:43Z tristero quit (Quit: tristero) 2016-10-13T16:55:03Z drmeister: Never mind, I got it (GCD ...) 2016-10-13T16:57:23Z saturniid joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:59:34Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-13T16:59:35Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:00:39Z flip214: drmeister: probably a calculation like 2/5 * 5/4 wouldn't even get the intermediate step 10/20, but get GCD'ed before the multiplication already. 2016-10-13T17:01:07Z OxOO joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:02:31Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:02:35Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-13T17:07:52Z gsm quit (Quit: gsm) 2016-10-13T17:08:17Z saturniid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-13T17:08:45Z kolko_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T17:09:57Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:10:29Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:11:06Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:13:38Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:14:38Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:15:05Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:18:19Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:18:21Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-13T17:19:57Z pierpa: &aux is a fossil meant to help porting interlisp programs. Just forget it. 2016-10-13T17:20:21Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:22:42Z gsm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T17:22:52Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:22:55Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-13T17:23:49Z gsm quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-13T17:24:32Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-13T17:29:06Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:32:53Z rpg: pierpa: I agree -- &aux is just something that makes it harder for another programmer to read your code. 2016-10-13T17:34:01Z jackdaniel: I find it better than wrapping whole body in single let, but I suppose it's a matter of my personal taste 2016-10-13T17:34:17Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:34:40Z tristero joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:36:14Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T17:39:45Z Cymew: I was not aware it came from Interlisp. Interesting. 2016-10-13T17:40:48Z pierpa: jackdaniel: just like in good old times :) In several old lisps the number of parameters in a function definition and in the function call did not need to match, so people could write a function of 1 argument as (defun func (arg1 aux1 aux2 ...) when they needed the aux vars... 2016-10-13T17:41:17Z pierpa: Cymew: it's not that interlisp had &aux, but it worked like ^ 2016-10-13T17:41:17Z jasom: I'm not sure why &aux is worse than a body that is a single LET form. 2016-10-13T17:41:39Z Cymew: pierpa: Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying. 2016-10-13T17:41:41Z jackdaniel: pierpa: never used pre-CL lisps 2016-10-13T17:41:50Z rpg: jasom: I usually don't like those Pascal-style "one let to rule them all and in the darkness bind them" 2016-10-13T17:42:09Z rpg: Within reason, I prefer to bind variables only around the code that uses them. 2016-10-13T17:42:29Z Cymew: jackdaniel: MAClisp is sometimes quite confusing if you're used to CL. Elisp experience helps, though. 2016-10-13T17:42:37Z jackdaniel: pierpa: (unless we count elisp, scheme) 2016-10-13T17:42:48Z Cymew: So you have! :) 2016-10-13T17:42:49Z jackdaniel: well, I had to configure my emacs instance, so I know elisp a little 2016-10-13T17:43:28Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:43:36Z jackdaniel: I mean - I have never used CL ancestors 2016-10-13T17:44:18Z jasom: rpg: I still often have one or more variables that are used for the entirety of the function; by "body that is a single let form" I meant that the outermost form for the function body is LET, not that there aren't multiple let forms in the body 2016-10-13T17:44:36Z jasom: rpg: e.g. (defun foo () (let ...)) 2016-10-13T17:44:52Z tothelispmobile joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:45:14Z jasom: I do not use &aux for those now, out of deference to other people who might read my code, but I personally find &aux to look nicer and more readable. 2016-10-13T17:45:15Z rpg: as a reader of code, I like knowing where to look for variable bindings, and sticking them up in &aux slows me down... 2016-10-13T17:45:38Z rpg: It irrationally pisses me off, like using SETQ (lookit me! I know lisp history!) instead of SETF 2016-10-13T17:45:54Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-13T17:46:09Z jasom: rpg: I used SETQ for about 3 years because it's how I was taught in school and I didn't know setf could be used for it. 2016-10-13T17:46:36Z jackdaniel: (defun bah (something &aux (something (ensure-list something))) …) vs (defun bah (something) (let ((something (ensure-list something))) …)) 2016-10-13T17:46:44Z jasom had thought setf was only for setting places that were compound forms 2016-10-13T17:46:53Z pierpa: IMHO lambda lists are for arguments, lets are for introducing new variables (duh :) 2016-10-13T17:47:11Z jasom: and IMHO lambda lists are for all variables that are bound for the entirety of the body of the function. 2016-10-13T17:47:29Z jackdaniel: I'm not strongly opinionated in favor of &aux, but neither against (slightly in favor :) 2016-10-13T17:47:52Z jasom: but I've come to realize that LET is less bothersome to me than &aux is for others, so I use LET 2016-10-13T17:48:02Z tothelispmobile: So I want to write a wrapper around defstruct so that it accepts a name and a list. 2016-10-13T17:48:06Z jasom: If I ever collaberate with jackdaniel I'll have to remember to use &aux :) 2016-10-13T17:48:15Z jackdaniel: heheh 2016-10-13T17:48:32Z jackdaniel: cheers :) I'm going to watch a movie, have a nice evening o/ 2016-10-13T17:48:44Z tothelispmobile: but (defun... (eval`(defstruct ,name @,list))) is not good right? 2016-10-13T17:48:55Z jasom: tothelispmobile: you probably want a macro that expands to defstruct 2016-10-13T17:49:10Z pierpa: let's see it in this way: the lambda list is the signature of a function, it's what matters to the outside. While &aux variables are an internal implementation detail, they should not leak outside. 2016-10-13T17:49:29Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-13T17:49:31Z tothelispmobile: the trouble I'm having with the macro route, is that the list is passed inside a variable that the macro won't evaluate 2016-10-13T17:49:40Z jasom: tothelispmobile: I often find it best to start with an example of what you want to be able to do, and then work towards that; so (mymagicdefstruct foo (bar baz bif)) 2016-10-13T17:49:51Z jasom: tothelispmobile: ah, that helps clarify things 2016-10-13T17:50:12Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:50:23Z rpg: tothelispmobile: It's also useful sometimes to clarify "why do you want to do this thing?" 2016-10-13T17:50:25Z jasom: tothelispmobile: can you write a small example of the code you want to be able to write, and then put that in a pastebin? That will give us a good place to discuss strategies for implementing it. 2016-10-13T17:50:48Z tothelispmobile: sure 2016-10-13T17:51:33Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:52:44Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:52:50Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-13T17:53:04Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:53:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T17:54:54Z tothelispmobile: http://pastebin.com/S7Gg7T5L 2016-10-13T17:55:01Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:55:09Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:55:21Z shrdlu68: Hello humans. 2016-10-13T17:55:33Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T17:55:35Z davout joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:55:44Z klltkr: Hello shrdlu68 2016-10-13T17:56:24Z drmeister: &aux is auxome! 2016-10-13T17:56:31Z klltkr: :) 2016-10-13T17:56:49Z shrdlu68: It doesn't seem as if cl-ppcre allows perl's /regex/s syntax, is there a way to allow this? 2016-10-13T17:57:13Z rpg: tothelispmobile: I think you may be having trouble with your macro because of what's happening at compile time and what's happening at load time. 2016-10-13T17:57:22Z scymtym: &aux is hard to replace for something like (defstruct (foo (:constructor make-foo (a &aux (b (compute a))))) a b) 2016-10-13T17:57:30Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-13T17:57:32Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T17:57:36Z rpg: tothelispmobile: can't swear to it, though. 2016-10-13T17:58:01Z Bike: shrdlu68: there's http://weitz.de/cl-interpol/#regular 2016-10-13T17:58:06Z klltkr quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-13T17:58:28Z rpg: scymtym: Sure, but just because it's important *somewhere* doesn't mean you should use it everywhere you can. 2016-10-13T17:58:42Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:58:46Z Quadresce quit (Changing host) 2016-10-13T17:58:47Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-13T17:59:03Z Cymew: rpg: Interesting to hear your reaction to SETQ. I'm a bit baffled by some people seem to reach for it myself. 2016-10-13T17:59:16Z Grue`: &aux is also useful in regard to version control. adding an outer let makes it seem like a lot of code has changed, while adding &aux changes just a few lines 2016-10-13T17:59:18Z Cymew: s/people seem( 2016-10-13T17:59:36Z Cymew: s/people seem/why some people/ 2016-10-13T18:00:05Z shrdlu68: Bike: Cool, thanks. 2016-10-13T18:01:00Z rpg: Another reason I dislike &aux is that emacs doesn't auto-indent lambda lists particularly well. 2016-10-13T18:02:41Z rpg: The &aux stuff doesn't jump out at me (again, as a code reader) from the lambda list, although it serves a different purpose than other ll elements. 2016-10-13T18:02:45Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:03:04Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T18:04:28Z Grue`: but within the function body, it doesnt matter if a variable is a function parameter, or &aux defined variable, they have the same behavior 2016-10-13T18:05:10Z rpg: Again, the thing I dislike as a reader is that I have to do more scanning to find the binding established. 2016-10-13T18:05:32Z tothelispmobile quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T18:06:02Z rpg: As I get older and older, I feel it more and more important to minimize having to think about what a piece of code does, as opposed to just recognizing idioms. 2016-10-13T18:07:12Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T18:08:31Z Th30n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T18:08:37Z Th30n_ joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:08:41Z Cymew: Treu 2016-10-13T18:08:51Z Cymew: ...or "true" at least. 2016-10-13T18:09:31Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:10:26Z rpg: I think that's why I dislike uses of SETQ, too. I have to think if there's some reason the programmer used it. Similarly, CAR, CADR, etc. If they are used to distinguish stuff like dotted-pair access, or sub-tree accesses, great. If it's just "look at me, I know that CADR is the cool way of saying SECOND," it pisses me off. 2016-10-13T18:11:28Z shrdlu68: rpg: cddddr 2016-10-13T18:12:34Z rpg: CDDDDR means "I was too lazy to make a STRUCTURE definition for this." 2016-10-13T18:12:46Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:13:00Z Fade: :D 2016-10-13T18:13:05Z shrdlu68: Why did they make it into CL in the first place? Backwards compatibility I suppose? 2016-10-13T18:13:14Z rpg: DEFSTRUCT (:TYPE :LIST) is your friend. 2016-10-13T18:13:40Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:14:46Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-13T18:15:20Z shrdlu68: CLL says &aux made it partly for backwards compatibility. 2016-10-13T18:16:08Z rpg: shrdlu68: As I said, I think they can be useful because you can use them to say "I'm operating on this at the CONS level." Like I would always use CDR to access an ALIST, instead of SECOND 2016-10-13T18:17:26Z shrdlu68: I use that too, it just seems more natural to say cdr when it's a cons. 2016-10-13T18:18:05Z rpg: Similarly, FIRST and REST seem good for me for things like tail-recursive operations on lists. 2016-10-13T18:22:34Z raydeejay: I'm glad I asked 2016-10-13T18:22:41Z jahced joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:22:53Z raydeejay: so, basically, &aux is amazing unless it's the Devil's spawn 2016-10-13T18:22:57Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:23:31Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:24:16Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:25:13Z dlowe: My take is that it's not amazing enough to overcome that it's kind of awful. 2016-10-13T18:25:15Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T18:25:24Z dlowe: If it were a bit more amazing, or a bit less awful 2016-10-13T18:29:43Z sjl: huh, apparently &aux works in destructuring-bind too. 2016-10-13T18:30:03Z sjl: (destructuring-bind (a b &aux (z (+ a b)) (list 1 2) (print z)) => 3 2016-10-13T18:30:58Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:31:08Z raydeejay fines sjl for unbalanced parens 2016-10-13T18:31:35Z sjl: here take a few spares, I've got extra: ))))))))))))))))))) 2016-10-13T18:39:24Z Cymew: Things like CADADDR drives me up the walls 2016-10-13T18:40:05Z pierpa: CADADDR is undefined :) 2016-10-13T18:40:26Z pierpa: (defined up to four...) 2016-10-13T18:41:16Z Cymew: Might be. To me that's how all those combinations look like. 2016-10-13T18:41:22Z pierpa: :) 2016-10-13T18:42:08Z Cymew: I still work at using FIRST and REST, though. For those I'm way to used to CAR and CDR. 2016-10-13T18:42:46Z pierpa: though, it must be said that in modern code the combinations are practically estinct, as far as I have seen. 2016-10-13T18:43:09Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-13T18:43:58Z pierpa: I'm still working on getting the habot of using ENDP. I always forget it :( 2016-10-13T18:44:04Z pierpa: *habit 2016-10-13T18:45:03Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:46:04Z rpg: pierpa: I still use NULL... Maybe I should start using ENDP.... 2016-10-13T18:46:19Z pierpa: me too! but ENDP is more robust 2016-10-13T18:46:41Z Cymew goes to look up ENDP 2016-10-13T18:46:53Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:50:59Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T18:52:04Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T18:52:51Z rumbler31: on windows, trying to get a dll to be found by cffi. I pushed the directory where I have stashed it to cffi::*foreign-library-directories*) but cffi keeps giving me an error about being unable to load the library. in the debugger, when I choose the option to use a different library instead, I put the full path and get "can't make argument list from path/to/lib" 2016-10-13T18:56:23Z saturniid joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:59:29Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-13T18:59:36Z Th30n_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T19:05:23Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-13T19:09:39Z rjid quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-10-13T19:09:57Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-13T19:11:05Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-13T19:13:15Z ilorp is now known as szorp 2016-10-13T19:14:00Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-10-13T19:15:29Z drmeister: What is an idiomatic way to take a property list and generate a pair of lists of properties and values? 2016-10-13T19:17:13Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-13T19:17:42Z drmeister: Nevermind - I can do it recursively. 2016-10-13T19:18:31Z remi`bd: or reduce 2016-10-13T19:23:44Z jasom: drmeister: (loop for (k v) on plist by #'cddr collect k into keys collect v into values finally (return (values keys values))) 2016-10-13T19:23:56Z jasom: drmeister: obviously more readable with linebreaks 2016-10-13T19:24:34Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T19:25:47Z szorp: is this pseudocode 2016-10-13T19:25:58Z _death: (series:scan-plist plist) :) 2016-10-13T19:26:12Z jasom: szorp: is what pseudocode? 2016-10-13T19:26:20Z szorp: (loop for (k v) on plist by #'cddr collect k into keys collect v into values finally (return (values keys values))) 2016-10-13T19:26:24Z phoe: szorp: no 2016-10-13T19:26:25Z phoe: it's loop 2016-10-13T19:26:26Z jasom: szorp: that ought to be correct 2016-10-13T19:26:27Z szorp: wow 2016-10-13T19:26:34Z phoe: a seemingly valid loop 2016-10-13T19:26:44Z jasom didn't actually run it so there might be typos 2016-10-13T19:26:59Z phoe: I see no typos 2016-10-13T19:27:00Z szorp: it seems surprisingly light on braces 2016-10-13T19:27:09Z szorp: and stuff 2016-10-13T19:27:13Z jasom: szorp: because LOOP is a DSL for iteration 2016-10-13T19:27:16Z phoe: szorp: because it's loop, which is basically a sublanguage in lisp. 2016-10-13T19:27:45Z dwc: (loop for (k v) on '(:a 1 :b 2 :c 3) by #'cddr do (format t "prop: ~a, val: ~a~%" k v)) 2016-10-13T19:27:57Z dwc: ^ gives the expected thing 2016-10-13T19:28:10Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-13T19:28:18Z phoe: dwc: it prints stuff instead of generating lists 2016-10-13T19:28:29Z dwc: yes 2016-10-13T19:28:50Z shrdlu68: Some people keyword the loop keywords. 2016-10-13T19:28:53Z dwc: I often print things first. but yeah, I haven't tested the collect stuff yet 2016-10-13T19:29:14Z phoe: shrdlu68: to avoid interning symbols like "for" "by" "collect" in their local package? 2016-10-13T19:29:42Z phoe: and to make them more visible? 2016-10-13T19:29:43Z jasom: the features I used there in loop that somepoeple don't know: 1) destructuring of assignemnts in loop will ignore extra parameters; 2) collecting into named variables 3) the "by" subclause of for-in. 2016-10-13T19:29:50Z jackdaniel: generally loop doesn't depend on that stuff and if loop is meant to be "english-like", then putting ":" is awkward 2016-10-13T19:30:09Z shrdlu68: phoe: Is that why? I had no idea. 2016-10-13T19:30:19Z jackdaniel: (by that stuff I mean - by where the symbol come from) 2016-10-13T19:30:24Z phoe: shrdlu68: I don't know why, I'm asking the question 2016-10-13T19:30:29Z shrdlu68: loop :for x :from 0 :to... 2016-10-13T19:30:31Z jasom: phoe: I assumed because of syntax highlighting? 2016-10-13T19:30:44Z phoe: jasom: that too 2016-10-13T19:31:27Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-13T19:31:31Z jasom: is there an english-word version of cddr? 2016-10-13T19:31:38Z segmond joined #lisp 2016-10-13T19:31:45Z _death: jasom: no 2016-10-13T19:31:45Z phoe: I don't think so 2016-10-13T19:31:46Z jasom: I suppose (alexandria:compose rest rest) 2016-10-13T19:31:48Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-13T19:31:53Z phoe: rest of rest, yeah 2016-10-13T19:31:53Z shrdlu68: No. 2016-10-13T19:32:05Z phoe: kadudur 2016-10-13T19:32:06Z jackdaniel: rrest ;) 2016-10-13T19:32:17Z phoe: or rest squared 2016-10-13T19:32:29Z jasom remembers seing somone proposing first/rest pnemonics like cadar 2016-10-13T19:32:36Z _death: twotail 2016-10-13T19:33:01Z jasom: cl21 maybe? 2016-10-13T19:38:30Z jasom: while we are talking about loop, anyone know of better automatic loop indenting for emacs? If so, I might write one. 2016-10-13T19:38:38Z rjid left #lisp 2016-10-13T19:38:57Z rpg: jasom: ITERATE ;-) 2016-10-13T19:39:00Z jasom: rpg: :P 2016-10-13T19:39:12Z rpg repents, but couldn't resist 2016-10-13T19:41:27Z jasom: I probably should use iterate; I'm just very familiar with loop. old-dog, new-tricks and all that. 2016-10-13T19:41:46Z shrdlu68: I wish there were a version of the `with` loop keyword that initialized and then reassigned with every iteration. 2016-10-13T19:41:54Z jasom: shrdlu68: you mean for? 2016-10-13T19:42:12Z phoe: shrdlu68: ...what jasom said 2016-10-13T19:43:43Z jasom: shrdlu68: (loop for x = 3 do (print (incf x)) (terpri)) ; prints out "4" forever 2016-10-13T19:44:58Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-13T19:46:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-13T19:46:56Z shrdlu68: jasom: phoe What if instead of x = 3 I had (funcall #'somefunc something) and wanted the result of that setf'd to x with every iteration rather than the initialization? 2016-10-13T19:47:20Z johs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T19:47:26Z phoe: (loop for x = (funcall #'somefunc something) do (print x)) 2016-10-13T19:47:42Z phoe: this does exactly what you want 2016-10-13T19:48:20Z phoe: WITH evaluates the form only once and binds the variable during initialization 2016-10-13T19:48:26Z jasom: shrdlu68: yup, and if you want an initialization followed by something different on all other iterations you can do "for x = Y then Z" and Y will be evaluated the first iteration and Z all subsequent iterations 2016-10-13T19:48:31Z phoe: FOR evaluates the form on each iteration and binds the variable each single time 2016-10-13T19:48:48Z shrdlu68: Ah, so the difference between `for` and `with`...yah yah exactly. 2016-10-13T19:49:21Z jasom: clhs 6.1.2.1.1 2016-10-13T19:49:21Z specbot: The for-as-arithmetic subclause: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abaa.htm 2016-10-13T19:49:28Z jasom: sorry 2016-10-13T19:49:33Z jasom: clhs 6.1.2.1.4 2016-10-13T19:49:33Z specbot: The for-as-equals-then subclause: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abad.htm 2016-10-13T19:49:46Z jasom: there are 7 different FOR clauses 2016-10-13T19:50:22Z dwc: foreclaws 2016-10-13T19:50:52Z jasom: (loop for x being the external-symbols of *package* ...) 2016-10-13T19:50:53Z shrdlu68: for-as-arithmetic seems to initialize and then step. 2016-10-13T19:51:09Z jasom: shrdlu68: yeah, I meant for-as-equals-then 2016-10-13T19:51:52Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-13T19:53:11Z shrdlu68: Neat, now I don't have to create bindings before looping. 2016-10-13T19:57:51Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-10-13T19:58:39Z raydeejay: I particularly like the one for iterating over keys and values of a hash 2016-10-13T19:58:50Z raydeejay: terse and concise 2016-10-13T20:02:17Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-13T20:04:55Z shrdlu68: I've implemented tls twice before, time to do it in lisp :) 2016-10-13T20:07:28Z jasom: 2000 systems from quicklisp are now converted to nix expressions with my ql2nix script. 2016-10-13T20:09:27Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T20:09:32Z antonv: jasom: why? 2016-10-13T20:10:15Z shrdlu68: I just googled ql2nix and found this very convresation. 2016-10-13T20:10:37Z jasom: antonv: because I find nix useful for various things and thought others might 2016-10-13T20:10:41Z shrdlu68: s/convresation/conversation 2016-10-13T20:10:41Z jackdaniel: sounds like an opportunity for better integration of CL libraries and non-CL world 2016-10-13T20:11:12Z antonv: I prefer to use quicklisp 2016-10-13T20:11:18Z fiveop joined #lisp 2016-10-13T20:11:22Z antonv: instead of depending on some package manager 2016-10-13T20:11:36Z jackdaniel: me too, I'm thinking about end-user 2016-10-13T20:11:38Z jasom: antonv: quicklisp doesn't get the non-lisp dependencies 2016-10-13T20:11:49Z jackdaniel: who wants to install CL application or instance 2016-10-13T20:12:01Z jackdaniel: (and doesn't know what Common Lisp is whatsoever) 2016-10-13T20:12:08Z antonv: for example cl-asdf debian package is often mroe problematic than useful 2016-10-13T20:12:13Z shrdlu68: Yeah. 2016-10-13T20:12:34Z jasom: antonv: yes, cl-asdf debian is horrible if you're a lisp dev. 2016-10-13T20:13:02Z antonv: jasom: does ql2nix get the non-lisp dependencies? (how can it do this?) 2016-10-13T20:13:05Z jasom: antonv: I would guess that it's useful for e.g. pgloader though. 2016-10-13T20:13:07Z prxq: antonv: debian cl-whatever has been problematic since forever. But what do you do as a debian packager if you want to bundle maxima (for example)? 2016-10-13T20:13:19Z shrdlu68: Wouldn't it be simpler if we there was a central repo for all lisp-unix stuff? 2016-10-13T20:13:29Z sobol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T20:13:38Z prxq: other langs have the same problem (ruby, python, ...) 2016-10-13T20:14:25Z jackdaniel: I think that Quicklisp is godsend for developers, but it doesn't cover non-CL-dev scenarios (tbh I'm glad it doesn't :) 2016-10-13T20:14:25Z prxq: shrdlu68: bleeding edge or superstable? there's always tradeoffs so there's always more than one. 2016-10-13T20:14:28Z jasom: the final outcome I hope is that 1) anything in quicklisp will be in nix and 2) there will be a simple script to generate a nix expression from your own asd files, thus allowing you to both easily setup a dev environment and provide working packages 2016-10-13T20:14:53Z shrdlu68: prxq: Could be both. 2016-10-13T20:15:12Z jasom: I want zero interaction for the ql-to-nix conversion so that updates can keep up with quicklisp 2016-10-13T20:15:20Z prxq: jasom: I think what you did is cool. 2016-10-13T20:15:54Z antonv: I don't understand. If one wants to deliver maxima or pgloader as a package on debian, isn't it better to build it together with all dependencies into one executable? 2016-10-13T20:16:14Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-13T20:16:58Z jasom: antonv: debian requires that everything needed to build something is available in debian. 2016-10-13T20:17:47Z jasom: antonv: on top of that, maintainers of package repositories do not want bundled dependencies as inputs to their package system (for various really good reasons I won't get into now) 2016-10-13T20:19:03Z jasom: for a non-lisp example, mongrel2 is a project I took over maintenance of, and to get it in various package managers, I had to unbundle mbedTLS. mbedTLS was originally bundled so that people could build it on many linuxes (most of which did not have packages for mbedTLS (then polarSSL) at the time) 2016-10-13T20:19:18Z jasom: there is a certain tension between "easy for devs" and "easy for bundlers" 2016-10-13T20:19:20Z antonv: isn't CL implementation + quicklisp not enough to build maximu (they're both are available on debian I guess) 2016-10-13T20:20:19Z shrdlu68: antonv: Some things are not taken care of by quicklisp. Shared libraries, for instance. 2016-10-13T20:20:32Z shrdlu68: I had to manually install iolib the other day. 2016-10-13T20:20:44Z antonv: yes, that's true 2016-10-13T20:20:52Z antonv: BTW, I have an idea how to improve that 2016-10-13T20:20:59Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-13T20:21:20Z antonv: to have an ASDF system for each native dependency 2016-10-13T20:21:25Z raydeejay: I can hear people waiting to jump at it with a counterargument 2016-10-13T20:21:45Z antonv: e.g. openssl, etc 2016-10-13T20:21:51Z antonv: the ASDF system does nothing 2016-10-13T20:22:03Z antonv: it's only purpose to signal that the dependency is necessary 2016-10-13T20:22:50Z antonv: well, there might be an ASDF operation print-install-help, which prints commands how to install that library on linux for example 2016-10-13T20:23:01Z antonv: but that's not required. 2016-10-13T20:23:28Z antonv: Even specifying native dependencies explicitly whould be very helpful. 2016-10-13T20:23:45Z jasom: antonv: that would have made my work a lot easier. Right now I just load the system and see where it fails (either an include failure from the groveller or a library not found) 2016-10-13T20:24:04Z antonv: jasom: exactly, I have the same problem 2016-10-13T20:24:45Z antonv: If we had explicit native dependencies we would know what native libs are necessary to the whole quicklisp world. 2016-10-13T20:25:12Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T20:25:12Z jackdaniel: sounds like a good idea 2016-10-13T20:25:16Z antonv: I think it would require to create another class of ASDF component. Maybe called native-depenency. 2016-10-13T20:25:35Z jackdaniel: (but it doesn't solve problem of fetching the dependencies, so having ql2nix is nice too) 2016-10-13T20:25:42Z antonv: asdf:operate would do nothing for that component for most operations 2016-10-13T20:26:13Z jasom: jackdaniel, antonv: if this were implemented, then you could write an ASDF extension for each OS even 2016-10-13T20:26:15Z antonv: jackdaniel: it could be a starting point. We would at least know what dependencies to fetch. 2016-10-13T20:26:36Z antonv: yes 2016-10-13T20:26:46Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-13T20:27:06Z jasom: have a restart that installs it even (possibly prompting for sudo/root password) 2016-10-13T20:27:52Z antonv: I would be glad to have an ASDF operation install-help. Each native-dependency component could implement it by printing an install command for linux at least. With that we coould print approximate install script for any QL system. 2016-10-13T20:28:18Z jasom: 1: [FIXUP ] Run "sudo apt-get install blas" and continue 2016-10-13T20:28:22Z antonv: And then run these commands manually, correcting them where necessar. 2016-10-13T20:28:32Z antonv: yes, something like that. 2016-10-13T20:28:36Z jasom: antonv: "an install command for linux" <-- doesn't exist 2016-10-13T20:29:02Z fe[nl]ix: how to load a C library is very OS-specific 2016-10-13T20:29:10Z jasom: packages on debian and ubuntu aren't even always named the same 2016-10-13T20:29:37Z jasom: much less getting into red-hat derived systems or gentoo, arch, nix 2016-10-13T20:29:49Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-13T20:29:54Z fe[nl]ix: there are two good ways to avoid all that: 1) statically link the CL implementation with the target libraries 2016-10-13T20:29:55Z raydeejay: er... it doesn't seem a big issue 2016-10-13T20:30:32Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: but that would require implementation knowing (and agreeing) to link against libraries required by *all* 3rd party software 2016-10-13T20:30:36Z fe[nl]ix: or 2) generate an empty C file that gets linked with the target library using --no-as-needed or the OS equivalent 2016-10-13T20:30:53Z fe[nl]ix: and then dinamically load that shim 2016-10-13T20:31:03Z fe[nl]ix: which will transitively bring in the target library 2016-10-13T20:31:11Z jackdaniel: jasom: names could be uniform for CL, for instance "ffi-libssl" 2016-10-13T20:31:29Z fe[nl]ix: that way you eschew re-implementing the whole linker search path 2016-10-13T20:31:53Z jasom: jackdaniel: right, but if you are grovelling you need the header, if you aren't you don't; some distributions put the header files in separate packages 2016-10-13T20:32:04Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: I think that it's more about reporting missing dependencies, not searching them if they are indeed present 2016-10-13T20:32:33Z fe[nl]ix: reporting missing dependencies is 0.3% of the work 2016-10-13T20:32:37Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: right now we want a way to say "I wan't to load ASDF system X, which foreign libraries will I need?" 2016-10-13T20:32:39Z jackdaniel: jasom: right, then "ffi-libssl" and "ffi-libssl-dev" (or some other convention) 2016-10-13T20:32:40Z fe[nl]ix: useful, but not much 2016-10-13T20:32:44Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: but it's 80% of the problem 2016-10-13T20:33:25Z fe[nl]ix: actually you don't really know if a library is missing 2016-10-13T20:33:47Z fe[nl]ix: some package managers manage their own bin and lib path 2016-10-13T20:33:59Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: reporting dependencies is doable though 2016-10-13T20:34:02Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-13T20:34:04Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: forget the missing part 2016-10-13T20:34:11Z fe[nl]ix: so unless you pass those specific paths to CFFI, it won't work 2016-10-13T20:34:35Z titankiller quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.0.50.1)) 2016-10-13T20:34:44Z raydeejay: but fe[nl]ix, it wouldn't work even if you had all the dependencies and there was nothing to install 2016-10-13T20:34:55Z fe[nl]ix: ?? 2016-10-13T20:35:38Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-10-13T20:35:44Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: Something more regular than building it and seeing if the groveller or load-library failed would be nice 2016-10-13T20:35:46Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel, jasom: I would be happy if one of you proved me wrong 2016-10-13T20:36:13Z fe[nl]ix: but out of my experience of supporting binaries on enterprise and non-enterprise Linux distros, on BSDs, Solaris and sometimes OSX 2016-10-13T20:36:21Z fe[nl]ix: I think it's not that easy 2016-10-13T20:36:22Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: I think we are talking about two different problems and I think nobody is wrong here 2016-10-13T20:36:28Z raydeejay: ^ 2016-10-13T20:36:52Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: the only sure way to tell if a library is indeed missing is to try to link to it and catch an error 2016-10-13T20:37:28Z antonv: fe[nl]ix: the question is not missing, but required 2016-10-13T20:37:31Z jackdaniel: we are talking about telling if library is "required", and you are talking about telling if library is "missing" 2016-10-13T20:37:33Z fe[nl]ix: you can take the easy way and just try to dlopen() 2016-10-13T20:37:35Z jasom: for those who care, here's a list of ffi deps I've found so far: https://bpaste.net/show/66da43bd8383 2016-10-13T20:37:56Z fe[nl]ix: but remember that the binary linker(ld) and the runtime linker(dlopen) have different search paths 2016-10-13T20:38:05Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-13T20:38:09Z fe[nl]ix: they're slightly different pretty much everwhere 2016-10-13T20:38:26Z jasom: nix is a bit odd in that rather than "dependencies" one specifies "build inputs" so e.g. you would use gnome3 as a build input for gtk3 and then gnome3.gtk for when you want to get at the specific library 2016-10-13T20:38:29Z Th30n quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-13T20:38:42Z fe[nl]ix: dlopen() was conceived to allow binaries to load plugins using the full path 2016-10-13T20:38:55Z fe[nl]ix: and only afterwards adjusted to allow linkin system libraries 2016-10-13T20:39:07Z jasom: so its "system-name input package" and you get e.g: gdk-cffi gnome3 gnome3.gtk 2016-10-13T20:39:38Z fe[nl]ix: anyway, somebody please prove me wrong 2016-10-13T20:39:42Z fe[nl]ix: with some code :) 2016-10-13T20:40:19Z antonv: fe[nl]ix: what is your statement? 2016-10-13T20:40:32Z antonv: (if we want to prove you wrong, we need to know this) 2016-10-13T20:41:01Z fe[nl]ix: that naive code will cause many false negatives 2016-10-13T20:41:19Z antonv: what negatives? 2016-10-13T20:41:21Z fe[nl]ix: and a fully compatible implementation requires either 1) or 2) as I said above 2016-10-13T20:41:33Z fe[nl]ix: antonv: not finding existing libraries 2016-10-13T20:41:33Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: did you read what we have answered a few lines above? 2016-10-13T20:41:51Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: we aren't trying to make things perfect, just better. I think that if you could query ASDF for a systems foreign dependencies, things would be better 2016-10-13T20:42:19Z raydeejay: the discussion is first of all about conveying what are the required dependencies 2016-10-13T20:42:33Z raydeejay: I'm not sure when the jump to dynamic linking and such happened 2016-10-13T20:42:48Z jasom: I think it's obvious that you can't find the missing dependencies if you don't know the dependencies 2016-10-13T20:43:05Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: and how do you plan to do that, if a library can have wildly different SONAMEs on various OSes ? 2016-10-13T20:43:33Z fe[nl]ix: in the Unix world, all you have is $CC -lopenssl 2016-10-13T20:43:45Z fe[nl]ix: what "-lopenssl" means and resolves to, is entirely unspecified 2016-10-13T20:44:16Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: and specifying "libopenssl" to CFFI works on most unixes I think 2016-10-13T20:44:19Z jackdaniel: abstract names for a starter aren't that bad ("ffi-libssl-dev" for instance) 2016-10-13T20:44:30Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T20:44:38Z jasom: the problem with abstract names is that there would have to be a registry or a really good convention 2016-10-13T20:44:54Z jasom: otherwise you get ffi-libopenssl ffi-libssl ffi-openssl &c. 2016-10-13T20:45:10Z madbub quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T20:45:11Z jackdaniel: yes, but given you have no set-in-stone sonames, then you have to come with some 2016-10-13T20:45:18Z jackdaniel: s/some/something/ 2016-10-13T20:45:21Z jackdaniel: s/come/come up/ 2016-10-13T20:45:26Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/blob/master/src/reload.lisp#L27 2016-10-13T20:45:38Z fe[nl]ix: enjoy the horror 2016-10-13T20:46:30Z fe[nl]ix: that's real-life hacks to make stuff work, unfortunately 2016-10-13T20:46:37Z jackdaniel: either way I think antonv 's idea is very good 2016-10-13T20:47:01Z jackdaniel: that said, I'm going to sleep, good night o/ 2016-10-13T20:47:08Z antonv: fe[nl]ix: what we are discussing is to have in cl+ssl.asd :depends-on ... :ffi-libssl 2016-10-13T20:47:08Z raydeejay: \o 2016-10-13T20:47:22Z fe[nl]ix: antonv: and then ? 2016-10-13T20:47:24Z antonv: jackdaniel: good night 2016-10-13T20:47:40Z antonv: ffi-libssl is a component with it's own .asd file 2016-10-13T20:47:52Z fe[nl]ix: go on ... 2016-10-13T20:47:58Z antonv: this compoent is inherited from native-depencency class 2016-10-13T20:48:25Z antonv: this ASDF class does nothing in asdf:operate for all current ASDF operations 2016-10-13T20:48:32Z antonv: that's it 2016-10-13T20:48:38Z fe[nl]ix: and what do you gain by that ? 2016-10-13T20:48:46Z raydeejay: you know what to install 2016-10-13T20:49:01Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-13T20:49:05Z antonv: I can find out all the native-dependencies of any ASDF system 2016-10-13T20:49:24Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: I can now define an :around method for my OS that does the Right Thing for a number of libraries 2016-10-13T20:50:51Z fe[nl]ix: that way you break cross-OS inspection 2016-10-13T20:51:03Z fe[nl]ix: being able to list OSX dependencies on Linux 2016-10-13T20:51:10Z fe[nl]ix: which might not be the same 2016-10-13T20:51:18Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: feature flags? 2016-10-13T20:51:29Z jasom: that's how we do it now anyways 2016-10-13T20:51:29Z fe[nl]ix: worse even 2016-10-13T20:51:47Z antonv: I think we can't hope for real automatic installation of dependencies to work well, but at least we will have info what libraries are needed, and maybe some approximate commands how to install them. 2016-10-13T20:52:14Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: indeed that's what we have now, but if you propose changing things, it would be good to make them better than what we have now 2016-10-13T20:52:26Z antonv: BTW, jasom, your list might be usefull to me some day 2016-10-13T20:52:36Z deank quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T20:53:26Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: so let's say you want a list of foreign dependencies to load a given lisp system, and you can change anything you want about asdf and all existing .asd files, how would you do it? 2016-10-13T20:54:10Z fe[nl]ix: I would move the library-loading part of CFFI into ASDF 2016-10-13T20:54:17Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: oh I'm all for that too 2016-10-13T20:54:27Z fe[nl]ix: and really add a native dependency, with some restrictions 2016-10-13T20:54:43Z fe[nl]ix: e.g., on OSX only support system libraries and homebrew 2016-10-13T20:54:50Z jasom: though I bet rpg doesn't want to touch that, so it would likely be an asdf extension that lives in CFFI like the groveller 2016-10-13T20:55:04Z fe[nl]ix: for custom installation methods, the users should write their own extensions 2016-10-13T20:55:17Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: there's where I'd like to take over ASDF 2016-10-13T20:55:28Z fe[nl]ix: but I'm a bit busy at work 2016-10-13T20:56:13Z fiveop quit 2016-10-13T20:56:22Z fe[nl]ix: "don't oppose the wind, bend with the wind" 2016-10-13T20:56:31Z fe[nl]ix: likewise, one should not fight the host OS 2016-10-13T20:56:46Z fe[nl]ix: C deps should be part of the compilation system 2016-10-13T20:56:53Z fe[nl]ix: a core feature 2016-10-13T20:58:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T20:58:31Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-13T20:59:00Z swflint is now known as swflint_away 2016-10-13T20:59:25Z antonv: anyways, back to where we started 2016-10-13T21:00:07Z antonv: about lisp libraries as packages of some non-lisp package managers (debian, nix) 2016-10-13T21:01:03Z antonv: let's say somebody wants to provide maxima or pgloader as a debian package. I don't understand why this implies having their lisp dependencies as packages too. 2016-10-13T21:01:33Z fe[nl]ix: indeed one does not need that 2016-10-13T21:01:42Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T21:01:50Z fe[nl]ix: but at least on Debian, there's a specific policy against bundled dependencies 2016-10-13T21:02:09Z fe[nl]ix: which requires having each dependency as its own package 2016-10-13T21:02:29Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T21:02:42Z fe[nl]ix: antonv: so in some cases the answer is "beaureaucracy" 2016-10-13T21:03:31Z jasom: what is dmitri's (of pgloader) nick in here? 2016-10-13T21:03:34Z shrdlu68: I think in python the OS package manager invokes pip. 2016-10-13T21:05:26Z antonv: shrdlu68: what do you mean? 2016-10-13T21:05:48Z shrdlu68: For installing dependencies. 2016-10-13T21:06:03Z jasom: shrdlu68: on which OS? 2016-10-13T21:06:23Z antonv: to have quicklisp 201x-xx-xx as a package on debian and then package for each lisp library is installed as ql:quickload? 2016-10-13T21:06:27Z jasom: here's the depends line for pgloader: Depends: ${misc:Depends}, cl-asdf (>= 3.0.3), cl-log, cl-postmodern, cl-simple-date, cl-qmynd, cl-split-sequence, cl-unicode, cl-interpol, cl-csv, cl-fad, cl-lparallel, cl-esrap, cl-alexandria, cl-drakma, cl-flexi-streams, cl-usocket, cl-local-time, cl-command-line-arguments, cl-abnf, cl-db3, cl-py-configparser, cl-sqlite, cl-trivial-backtrace, cl-markdown, cl-md5, 2016-10-13T21:06:29Z jasom: cl-asdf-finalizers, cl-asdf-system-connections, cl-cffi (>= 1:0.12.0), cl-bordeaux-threads (>= 0.8.3), cl-metabang-bind, cl-uuid, cl-trivial-utf-8, cl-quri, cl-utilities, cl-ppcre 2016-10-13T21:06:41Z jasom: note that cl-asdf is actually useful in this case 2016-10-13T21:07:30Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-13T21:07:31Z shrdlu68: Gnu/Linuxes, I think. I have pip on Gentoo, for instance. 2016-10-13T21:09:15Z jasom: shrdlu68: you know that each linux distro has its own package repository, and I can name 5 completely different package management tools used by different distributions 2016-10-13T21:10:35Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-13T21:10:36Z antonv: jasom: so these are all debian packages? Doesn't look very convenient for me. I'd prefer to have pgloader just as a monolithic exectutable. 2016-10-13T21:12:00Z shrdlu68: So debian's policy forbids shipping with all these dependencies bundled? 2016-10-13T21:13:25Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T21:13:32Z jasom: antonv, shrdlu68 correct 2016-10-13T21:13:36Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T21:13:54Z antonv: jasom: does nix have the same policy? 2016-10-13T21:14:20Z jasom: antonv: I'm not aware of *any* package systems that don't at least strongly suggest dependencies not be bundled 2016-10-13T21:14:27Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-13T21:14:38Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-13T21:15:36Z foom joined #lisp 2016-10-13T21:16:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T21:17:38Z jasom: antonv: Imagine that lisp became super popular at some point; there would now be like 6 versions of cl-markdown being bundled inside various build scripts for different executables, and each package owner is responsible for keeping those bundled dependencies up-to-date, and if there is a security vulnerability in cl-markdown 6 packages need patching rather than 1. 2016-10-13T21:18:35Z antonv: jasom: no, I don't mean copy the dependencies everywhere. I mean the build scripts use quicklisp to fetch the library. So it will be the same library everywhere. 2016-10-13T21:19:29Z shrdlu68: Can't they be installed as part of the build process? I think Gentoo's ebuild process can be integrated with quicklisp, though I have no in-depth knowledeg of the process. 2016-10-13T21:19:52Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T21:20:00Z antonv: jasom: Well, what you say about policy explains to some extent your work of creating nix packages from all CL libs. 2016-10-13T21:20:26Z shrdlu68: "Whereas RPMs are precompiled binaries, ebuilds are shell scripts with variables and functions which contain a description of the software, and instructions on how to obtain, configure, compile, and install it, more closely akin to (but more powerful than) the .spec files distributed in SRPMs. There are over 27,000 ebuilds available, the majority of which are distributed by the Gentoo mirrors." 2016-10-13T21:21:13Z jasom: shrdlu68: if you pinned it to a specific ql dist, it would probably be allowed; they want everything downloaded to be verified with a secure hash for obvious reasons. 2016-10-13T21:21:42Z jasom: shrdlu68: I'm a proxied maintainer for two packages in gentoo, btw. 2016-10-13T21:22:13Z shrdlu68: jasom: Any of them lisps? 2016-10-13T21:22:33Z jasom: shrdlu68: This isn't a technical limitation; .debs are built from source by scripts which could invoke quicklisp but that would be not allowed by policy. 2016-10-13T21:22:36Z antonv: jasom: BTW, nix shouldn't be very opposed to bundling dependencies, I guess, because, as far as I understand, in nix every program very often gets it's own copy of a dependency 2016-10-13T21:22:48Z antonv: due to their versioning mechanism 2016-10-13T21:23:04Z jasom: antonv: it does not get its own copy, but they do hard-code the rpath to a specific version of a .so 2016-10-13T21:23:42Z antonv: jasom: yes, but there might be many versions of .so, right? 2016-10-13T21:23:43Z jasom: shrdlu68: none of them are lisps; www-servers/mongrel2 and media-tv/xmltv 2016-10-13T21:24:23Z jasom: antonv: yes there might be, but they aren't bundled so if you upgrade a .so, then that can propogate when you request to rebuild a package. 2016-10-13T21:25:04Z shrdlu68 wonders how Lisp-based OSes did package management back in the day. 2016-10-13T21:25:29Z jasom: shrdlu68: my understanding is that basically the whole system, OS included was a single lisp image 2016-10-13T21:25:34Z antonv: jasom: if two program depend on the same library, but use different flags for that library, the nix will build this library twice and produce two different .so for these two programs? 2016-10-13T21:25:47Z jasom: shrdlu68: and downloading updates from the internet was not a thing back then 2016-10-13T21:26:20Z jasom: antonv: there I am not as certain 2016-10-13T21:27:08Z luis` is now known as luis 2016-10-13T21:27:13Z jasom: antonv: I think the way it works in that particular case is that you would specify your dependency not on the package, but on an expression that represents the package with the flags you need. 2016-10-13T21:28:08Z jasom: antonv: but this isn't like a straight mapping to Gentoo's USE flags at all for how things work 2016-10-13T21:28:11Z antonv: jasom: that's my understanding of nix - they accound every configuration option when producing a "version hash", therefore each program will depend on different "version" of the library, so nix will build a unique copy for each of the dependent program. 2016-10-13T21:29:05Z antonv: In this sense, the library binaries whould often be duplicated, which means nix shouldn't be opposed very much to bundling dependencies together with program. I guess. 2016-10-13T21:29:26Z jasom: antonv: let me clarify; if I "nixpkgs.bar" depends on "nixkpgs.foo" and manuall update foo, bar will still be working with the old foo until I either upgrade the whole system or manually update bar. 2016-10-13T21:29:37Z jasom: antonv: they are almost never duplicated 2016-10-13T21:30:48Z jasom: programs usually just depend on something that equates to "the newest version of library foo" and so there will be one copy of the newest version; there will be other copies IFF a specific version dependency is needed. 2016-10-13T21:30:57Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-13T21:31:32Z jasom: there will also be temporarily other copies while you are upgrading your system (they actually hang around on disk until you garbage collect). 2016-10-13T21:31:36Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T21:32:26Z antonv: hm 2016-10-13T21:32:28Z antonv: strange 2016-10-13T21:32:40Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T21:32:56Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-13T21:32:59Z antonv: "newest version" where? just newest or a version in some nix repository 2016-10-13T21:33:17Z antonv: I mean, if that's just a "newest version" then it doesn't have reproducable builds. 2016-10-13T21:33:18Z jasom: newest version in some nix repository 2016-10-13T21:33:30Z antonv: a, then ok 2016-10-13T21:33:54Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-13T21:33:56Z antonv: BTW, I find quicklisp to be very similar to nix 2016-10-13T21:41:55Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-13T21:41:56Z sellout- quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-13T21:42:25Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-13T21:46:33Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T21:47:00Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T21:48:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T21:49:03Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-13T21:51:20Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1) 2016-10-13T21:51:41Z ekinmur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T21:53:45Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T21:55:51Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T21:58:03Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-13T21:58:49Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-13T22:00:26Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-13T22:04:17Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T22:04:42Z segmond quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-13T22:09:25Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T22:14:29Z Quadresce quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-13T22:16:12Z prole quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-13T22:16:13Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-13T22:16:58Z deank joined #lisp 2016-10-13T22:17:09Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-13T22:17:18Z Quadresce quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-13T22:18:12Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-13T22:18:56Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T22:19:47Z lispentome joined #lisp 2016-10-13T22:20:39Z lispentome: I have written both a function and a macro that allow me to create a structure with a name and a list http://pastebin.com/y649fbYq 2016-10-13T22:20:57Z lispentome: they both suck, but can anyone tell me which is better? 2016-10-13T22:22:21Z Bike: the macro. you don't want to define structs at runtime in general 2016-10-13T22:22:28Z Bike: it doesn't work, though 2016-10-13T22:22:47Z lispentome: are you sure? it seemed to work for me 2016-10-13T22:23:11Z Bike: you define a local function 'defs-call' and then try to call 'defs-caller' 2016-10-13T22:24:02Z jasom: how is defstruct-from-list-2 different from `(defstruct ,n ,@lst) 2016-10-13T22:24:57Z jasom: s/lst/list/ 2016-10-13T22:25:06Z lispentome: you're right it doesn't work 2016-10-13T22:26:09Z jasom: lispentome: what is the use-case for dynamc structure definition? 2016-10-13T22:26:40Z jasom: usually when you are defining structs at runtime a hash-table or other associative type is better. 2016-10-13T22:27:53Z lispentome: well, the problem is I was modelling so many parameters, I just wanted to list them once in the code under a variable and never have to type them out again 2016-10-13T22:27:57Z rpg: I looked at lispentome's use case, and it looks like this is intended to be defined at compile-time, just using a different syntax. 2016-10-13T22:28:20Z rpg: lispentome: you should do that with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (defparameter ....)) 2016-10-13T22:28:22Z jasom: ah, then just `(defstruct ,name ,@list) should be fine 2016-10-13T22:28:53Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-13T22:29:15Z rpg: lispentome: then also (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (defstruct-from-list ....)) -- might have to do something to make sure you don't unnecessarily redefine. 2016-10-13T22:29:53Z jasom: rpg: shouldn't need an eval-when around the defstruct, right? 2016-10-13T22:30:45Z o`connor quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-13T22:31:00Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-13T22:31:14Z rpg: jasom: Oh, yes, that's right: it will get macro-expanded at compile-time, and the compiler will see it expands to DEFSTRUCT and do the right thing. 2016-10-13T22:31:18Z rpg: You're right; I'm wrong. 2016-10-13T22:31:49Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T22:33:06Z lispentome: I can't find a way to successfully pass the *parameters* variable (which contains the paramater list) to a macro. I need that variable to be evaluated to the list it contains and then that list to be spliced. So it's two steps and I can only seem to accomplish one. 2016-10-13T22:33:54Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-13T22:34:03Z rpg: lispentome: You should be able to do this: (1) wrap the defparameter as I advise; (2) put in a DEFMACRO for defstruct-from-list; (3) put the DEFSTRUCT-FROM-LIST at top-level. 2016-10-13T22:34:52Z rpg: (defmacro defstruct-from-list (name list) `(defstruct ,name ,,@list) might be what you need. 2016-10-13T22:35:11Z rpg: one comma replaces the name into the expansion; 2 gets you the value. 2016-10-13T22:35:17Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-13T22:35:20Z jasom: rpg: that's a comma outside backquite 2016-10-13T22:35:27Z rpg: I have NO IDEA if I got the two-comma/@ thing right.... 2016-10-13T22:35:51Z jasom: (defmacro defstruct-from-list (name list) `(defstruct ,name ,@(symbol-value list))) 2016-10-13T22:35:58Z rpg: Paul Graham's /On Lisp/ has examples of this. 2016-10-13T22:36:45Z lispentome: does symbol-value work on lexical variables? 2016-10-13T22:36:51Z jasom: lispentome: nope 2016-10-13T22:37:24Z jasom: lispentome: but your example did not have lexical variables. 2016-10-13T22:37:56Z jasom: lispentome: and there aren't any lexical bindings at macroexpand time 2016-10-13T22:38:42Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-13T22:39:43Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/328468 <-- this works because we ensure that *foo* has a value at macroexpand time. 2016-10-13T22:40:34Z jasom: lispentome: I guess the question is: do you want to make a struct from a value that isn't known at compile time? If so, we think that is a bad idea, but eval is the only thing that will work. 2016-10-13T22:41:31Z jasom: In general, when eval is the only thing that will work and you aren't writing an interpreter, then you probably should take a different approach. 2016-10-13T22:42:22Z rpg: P.S. if you use ASDF you could avoid the eval-when by putting your defparameter in, say, params.lisp, and put your defstruct-from-list in structs.lisp and make it that structs.lisp :DEPENDS-ON params.lisp 2016-10-13T22:42:23Z lispentome: Ok, I don't need to do that yet, I was trying to make my solution more useful for future. But I think you are right I should consider something else entirely. 2016-10-13T22:43:02Z funnel joined #lisp 2016-10-13T22:43:16Z yoosi quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-13T22:43:24Z jasom: (let ((x 1)) (some-macro x)) ; <-- you should understand why the expander some-macro has no idea that x has the value of 1 2016-10-13T22:44:25Z lispentome: so at compile time, that let has never been evaluated..? 2016-10-13T22:44:59Z b3atr: what's the definition of common lisp? 2016-10-13T22:45:14Z b3atr: I want the corrext definition fo its goal. 2016-10-13T22:45:25Z jasom: lispentome: correct, a macro basically has for its parameters the *code* that contained within the body of the macro 2016-10-13T22:46:12Z jasom: b3atr: a language doesn't have a goal; do you mean the goals of those who were on the CL standardization commitee? 2016-10-13T22:46:38Z b3atr: err, i mean its functionality 2016-10-13T22:46:39Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-13T22:46:49Z b3atr: dynamaic, functional? 2016-10-13T22:46:56Z lispentome: OK, thank you jasom, rpg 2016-10-13T22:47:20Z jasom: b3atr: it's a general purpose language; functional/OO/&c. it's not particularly opinionated on "multi-paradigm" is perhaps the correct term for that 2016-10-13T22:47:33Z raydeejay prefers paradigm-agnostic 2016-10-13T22:47:53Z jasom: b3atr: as far as dynamic, it is definitely dynamic, but unlike most dynamic languages, implementations are typically AOT compiled incrementally. 2016-10-13T22:47:53Z yoosi joined #lisp 2016-10-13T22:48:06Z jasom: rather than interpreted or JIT compiled 2016-10-13T22:48:42Z o`connor joined #lisp 2016-10-13T22:53:03Z lispentome left #lisp 2016-10-13T22:53:42Z jasom: b3atr: the side-bar on the wikipedia page of common lisp looks like a good summary for some of these questions 2016-10-13T22:55:23Z clog joined #lisp 2016-10-13T22:55:42Z b3atr: jasom, thanks 2016-10-13T22:58:56Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:05:02Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-13T23:08:25Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-13T23:08:35Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:09:13Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:09:55Z earl-ducaine__ joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:10:34Z earl-ducaine__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T23:10:34Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T23:10:34Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T23:10:46Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:10:52Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T23:11:10Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:11:25Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T23:11:46Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-13T23:14:00Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:14:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:14:06Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:14:06Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T23:14:20Z quazimod1 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-13T23:15:14Z pkkm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-13T23:19:07Z quazimodo quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-13T23:19:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:20:25Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:20:25Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:23:45Z Quadresce quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-13T23:23:49Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-13T23:25:25Z deank quit 2016-10-13T23:26:01Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-13T23:26:24Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:26:45Z anon1887 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:26:48Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:26:53Z anon1887 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-13T23:29:32Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-13T23:29:59Z kcodrgkimd joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:37:40Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-13T23:40:38Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:42:16Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-13T23:42:45Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:42:45Z cpc26 quit (Changing host) 2016-10-13T23:42:45Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-13T23:44:09Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-13T23:57:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T00:04:05Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T00:12:20Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T00:22:24Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T00:24:03Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-10-14T00:25:13Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2016-10-14T00:28:23Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T00:35:13Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T00:35:24Z impaktor_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T00:38:00Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T00:38:32Z impaktor_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T00:38:55Z ski joined #lisp 2016-10-14T00:53:37Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T01:02:43Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-14T01:03:54Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-14T01:04:42Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-14T01:07:11Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T01:08:34Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-14T01:10:17Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-14T01:12:56Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T01:13:40Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Email ? 2016-10-14T03:17:22Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T03:18:21Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T03:19:08Z pierpa: ty! email wouild be great (olopierpa@gmail.com) 2016-10-14T03:19:28Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T03:19:36Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T03:20:09Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T03:20:47Z rpg: pierpa: should be over to you now. 2016-10-14T03:21:46Z rpg: good night! 2016-10-14T03:22:17Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2016-10-14T03:22:27Z pierpa: good night 2016-10-14T03:22:48Z rpg: got it? 2016-10-14T03:23:10Z pierpa: yes 2016-10-14T03:23:16Z pierpa: (and replied :) 2016-10-14T03:23:47Z rpg: saw it now! 2016-10-14T03:23:55Z pierpa: ;) 2016-10-14T03:24:41Z gmareske joined #lisp 2016-10-14T03:24:43Z gmareske is now known as gsm 2016-10-14T03:25:21Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-14T03:27:28Z adlai joined #lisp 2016-10-14T03:27:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-14T03:29:36Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-14T03:29:43Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-14T03:31:38Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-14T03:33:56Z beaky: hello 2016-10-14T03:34:46Z beaky: how do you refactor programs that involve big LET* lists 2016-10-14T03:38:41Z beaky: is it very lispy to rely on LET* alot 2016-10-14T03:39:27Z pierpa: hmmm a bit vague :) 2016-10-14T03:41:23Z beaky: maybe i really after a LET on steroids that combines flet, lexical scope, pattern matcing, destructuring, etc. 2016-10-14T03:44:14Z Bike: there are some libraries for that 2016-10-14T03:45:38Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2016-10-14T07:08:08Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T07:09:19Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-14T07:09:29Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-14T07:10:21Z ekinmur quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T07:16:46Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-14T07:17:36Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-14T07:19:39Z beaky: hello 2016-10-14T07:19:55Z beaky: how do i read the assembly that DISASSEMBLE returns 2016-10-14T07:20:37Z jackdaniel: you put glasses on and focus ;) 2016-10-14T07:20:45Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by "how"? 2016-10-14T07:20:51Z Bike: depends on the implementation, but usually the syntax is reasonably conventional to the machine 2016-10-14T07:21:04Z Bike: virtual though it may be 2016-10-14T07:21:46Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-14T07:28:06Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-14T07:47:58Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-14T07:48:13Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T07:48:30Z easye: RichardPaulBck[m: Maybe, depends on the quality of the library for building GUI applications. I have some "display code" in SVG that I would love to make a Linux executable for as well. 2016-10-14T07:48:43Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-14T07:50:11Z eschatologist quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-14T07:53:44Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-14T07:56:21Z Bike quit (Quit: moonshine) 2016-10-14T08:05:00Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T08:06:56Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-14T08:08:58Z RichardPaulBck[m: My basic idea would to reuse my library/framework (https://github.com/ritschmaster/caveman2-widgets) for webapps and extend/refactor it to be some kind of "meta" framework. Which means that it would be useable like Gtk but "produces" many different applications. basically the "produce" part is that you choose in which way to run your application. 2016-10-14T08:14:34Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-14T08:14:48Z ekinmur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T08:15:07Z jackdaniel: RichardPaulBck[m: sounds like a "backend" indea from clim (not that McCLIM has more than one backend atm) 2016-10-14T08:15:07Z RichardPaulBck[m: So it won't just produce code which then has to be maintained. 2016-10-14T08:18:31Z RichardPaulBck[m: jackdaniel: I am not familiar with CLIM/McCIM. Would you mind to give me a short summary of CLIM's "backend" idea? 2016-10-14T08:19:03Z jackdaniel: clim is a "common lisp interface manager" (specification) 2016-10-14T08:19:32Z jackdaniel: McCLIM is a FOSS implementation of this protocol 2016-10-14T08:19:41Z jackdaniel: s/protocol/specification/ 2016-10-14T08:20:11Z jackdaniel: specification allows implementation to have multiple backends, to "enable native look and feel on various platforms" 2016-10-14T08:20:23Z jackdaniel: so basically depending on the backend you use different drawning / look primitives are used 2016-10-14T08:20:47Z jackdaniel: here you'll find some pointers: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/ 2016-10-14T08:21:03Z jackdaniel: (development section has also FAQ) 2016-10-14T08:22:33Z RichardPaulBck[m: Thank you! So it might be a good idea to morph my library to a McCLIM backend. 2016-10-14T08:22:41Z RichardPaulBck[m: What do you think? 2016-10-14T08:22:56Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-14T08:23:01Z jackdaniel: in the faq you will find some answers regarding backends 2016-10-14T08:23:18Z jackdaniel: task would be at least demanding 2016-10-14T08:23:50Z jackdaniel: not sure if it's a good idea at this point of time, but it's your time to decide – I'm sure McCLIM project will benefit from such effort 2016-10-14T08:26:35Z RichardPaulBck[m: Are there any projects that are actually using McCLIM? 2016-10-14T08:26:54Z jackdaniel: quite a few, yes, you may want to search for mcclim-desktop on github 2016-10-14T08:27:23Z jackdaniel: the toolkit has a few areas which need to be improved, but it's definetely usable 2016-10-14T08:30:12Z RichardPaulBck[m: Î will look into that. Maybe I will come up with something someday. 2016-10-14T08:31:17Z jackdaniel: cool :) there is #clim channel if you have some questions 2016-10-14T08:32:05Z RichardPaulBck[m: Thanks! 2016-10-14T08:34:28Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-14T08:34:36Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-14T08:38:32Z man213 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T08:58:18Z ramky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T08:59:49Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-14T08:59:53Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:00:17Z ramky_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:01:12Z ramky_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T09:03:00Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:11:57Z boomer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T09:13:19Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:18:26Z ekinmur quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T09:26:27Z Oddity joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:26:27Z Oddity quit (Changing host) 2016-10-14T09:26:27Z Oddity joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:28:39Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T09:28:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:31:56Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-14T09:32:14Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:37:22Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-14T09:38:13Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:39:17Z neuri8 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-14T09:41:55Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:46:00Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:49:38Z nostoi joined #lisp 2016-10-14T09:58:55Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T10:03:14Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T10:03:56Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T10:04:00Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-14T10:04:44Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-487-cbf5c38 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-14T10:15:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-14T10:15:54Z seg joined #lisp 2016-10-14T10:18:21Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-10-14T10:18:49Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-14T10:22:33Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T10:24:12Z ekinmur quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T10:25:28Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T10:35:02Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend.) 2016-10-14T10:35:06Z solyd joined #lisp 2016-10-14T10:35:59Z szorp is now known as prozs 2016-10-14T10:40:38Z prozs is now known as vapid 2016-10-14T10:40:42Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T10:41:01Z vapid is now known as xraa 2016-10-14T10:41:12Z xraa is now known as vapid 2016-10-14T10:42:08Z solyd quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-14T10:44:51Z solyd joined #lisp 2016-10-14T10:46:51Z solyd quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-14T10:47:51Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-14T10:47:54Z solyd joined #lisp 2016-10-14T10:52:18Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T10:54:00Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-14T10:54:35Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-14T10:55:28Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T10:57:04Z jdz joined #lisp 2016-10-14T10:57:23Z solyd quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-14T10:59:37Z solyd joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:02:42Z neuri8 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T11:04:32Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:08:45Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:09:22Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T11:12:01Z kolko_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:12:37Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-14T11:14:53Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:18:05Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T11:20:47Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-14T11:21:20Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:23:49Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:28:48Z ekinmur quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T11:31:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:33:47Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-14T11:34:53Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T11:36:58Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-14T11:39:28Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-14T11:40:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:40:16Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T11:41:22Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:42:10Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:44:11Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T11:45:05Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:49:25Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-14T11:52:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:53:14Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:54:45Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-14T11:57:02Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T11:58:11Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:00:19Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:02:28Z beaky: hello is there something like php but in common lisp 2016-10-14T12:02:49Z beaky: so that i can slap together a webapp in slime 2016-10-14T12:03:07Z mvilleneuve left #lisp 2016-10-14T12:03:25Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:03:55Z splittist: Would this help http://www.cliki.net/web%20framework ? 2016-10-14T12:04:22Z beaky: wow thanks will try them out 2016-10-14T12:04:50Z arbv: beaky: I am not sure what are you talking about but clack is quite popular. 2016-10-14T12:04:57Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T12:05:13Z arbv: beaky: caveman is an another option. 2016-10-14T12:05:38Z arbv: beaky: I should note that I did not work with either. 2016-10-14T12:06:04Z splittist: beaky: there's also a (potentially free) book: https://leanpub.com/lispweb 2016-10-14T12:12:27Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:14:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:18:28Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T12:18:55Z phoe: https://41.media.tumblr.com/08115d4b0b7b5ca2a221003c6b37c8f9/tumblr_inline_nv213bdyj91ryyjv7_540.jpg 2016-10-14T12:18:58Z phoe: blah 2016-10-14T12:19:01Z phoe: I didn't mean to post that 2016-10-14T12:19:11Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:19:38Z raydeejay: someone hijacked your clipboard eh 2016-10-14T12:19:40Z phoe: but yes, clack is fun 2016-10-14T12:19:48Z phoe: no, it *was* my clipboard 2016-10-14T12:19:55Z phoe: I didn't intend to make a ctrl+v 2016-10-14T12:20:02Z phoe: damned touchpads 2016-10-14T12:21:19Z JuanDaugherty: i c 2016-10-14T12:21:25Z JuanDaugherty: clack is HT stack 2016-10-14T12:21:55Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:22:27Z arbv: phoe: I should note that I liked the picture ;) 2016-10-14T12:22:38Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-14T12:23:28Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:26:26Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:26:42Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T12:28:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:28:57Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:30:28Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-14T12:31:44Z razzy89___ is now known as Haloo 2016-10-14T12:32:04Z Haloo is now known as razzy89 2016-10-14T12:32:55Z solene: hello, how can I check that quicklisp is loaded in the program ? I would like to enable functions if quicklisp can be used, and display an error if quicklisp isn't available 2016-10-14T12:33:49Z arbv: solene: I guess #+quicklisp will do. 2016-10-14T12:34:55Z shka: solene: cl:*features* 2016-10-14T12:35:05Z shka: quicklisp adds :quicklisp there 2016-10-14T12:35:11Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:36:09Z solene: shka: arbv thanks you ! 2016-10-14T12:36:10Z arbv: solene: (when (member-if :quicklisp cl:*features*) ..) 2016-10-14T12:36:37Z shka: solene: you are welcome, happy hacking! 2016-10-14T12:37:32Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:39:20Z phoe: solene: actually 2016-10-14T12:39:27Z phoe: #+quicklisp (foo bar baz) 2016-10-14T12:39:32Z phoe: oh, wait 2016-10-14T12:39:35Z phoe: that's compile-time. 2016-10-14T12:39:48Z phoe: execute-time is what you said. 2016-10-14T12:39:58Z phoe: what arbv said. 2016-10-14T12:41:09Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T12:41:36Z solene: it doesn't seem to work with member-if, isn't it member ? member-if tells that function :QUICKLISP is undefined 2016-10-14T12:41:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:41:53Z shka: well 2016-10-14T12:41:59Z shka: i think you want to use member 2016-10-14T12:42:03Z shka: not member-if 2016-10-14T12:42:55Z shka: (member :quicklisp *features*) 2016-10-14T12:42:59Z shka: like this 2016-10-14T12:43:13Z shka: member-if accepts comparsion function as a first argument 2016-10-14T12:43:44Z shka: but you don't need it since you can simply use eql 2016-10-14T12:44:08Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T12:44:39Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:48:55Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T12:50:27Z boomer joined #lisp 2016-10-14T12:51:30Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:00:02Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:01:04Z Warlock[29A] joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:04:11Z Sigyn quit (Quit: Would it save you a lot of time if I just gave up and went mad now?) 2016-10-14T13:04:18Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:04:47Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:05:32Z RichardPaulBck[m: beaky: Shameless self advertisement: https://github.com/ritschmaster/caveman2-widgets 2016-10-14T13:07:43Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:11:35Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:11:45Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:12:04Z Baggers: Xach: Regarding the 'projects-on-bubble' post, has this been dealt with. If not I can move those to github tonight so we can point at that instead 2016-10-14T13:12:18Z Baggers: s/with./with? 2016-10-14T13:14:34Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:15:23Z rumbler31: anyone stood up cl+ssl on windows lately? the docs for getting the binaries describe that the interface has changed recently and software compiled against might need to be recompiled 2016-10-14T13:16:53Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:19:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T13:21:18Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T13:21:27Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T13:22:35Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:25:29Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T13:25:50Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:26:13Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:26:58Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:29:14Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-14T13:30:05Z sandos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-14T13:34:30Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:36:53Z rpg_ is now known as rpg 2016-10-14T13:38:59Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T13:39:07Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:39:49Z Acherontius joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:42:11Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:43:14Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-14T13:45:24Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-10-14T13:45:59Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:47:49Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-14T13:49:17Z rumbler31: and it only expects the 32 bit version of the libs... 2016-10-14T13:51:56Z flamebeard_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:52:11Z Warlock_29A joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:53:29Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T13:53:57Z Warlock[29A] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T13:56:55Z flamebeard_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-14T13:58:17Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T13:58:20Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T13:58:45Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:04:53Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:05:19Z Warlock_29A quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T14:08:34Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T14:09:07Z heurist`_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:12:04Z dwrngr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T14:12:09Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T14:12:18Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T14:14:54Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:17:57Z heurist`_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-14T14:21:01Z heurist_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T14:21:04Z Xach: Baggers: cl-web-crawler is definitively unmaintained 2016-10-14T14:21:05Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:21:35Z Xach: Baggers: If you want to adopt them, I can point to the new repos. I didn't want to do it myself if nobody else cared enough to do it. 2016-10-14T14:21:39Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:21:56Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:23:12Z Baggers: I'll certainly move then to my github in case anyone needs them in future. I'm unlikely to work on them but it's worth itin a case a non irc lisper is relying on them 2016-10-14T14:30:59Z ramky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-14T14:35:24Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:35:53Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:37:01Z Xach: Well, I did announce it on the blog and it got on reddit and twitter and stuff, too. 2016-10-14T14:37:16Z Xach: I'd almost rather have someone chime in and say "hey, I miss that" at this point 2016-10-14T14:37:25Z Xach: (after it's missing) 2016-10-14T14:41:39Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:42:26Z Baggers: ok 2016-10-14T14:44:44Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:46:50Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:47:25Z kcodrgkimd joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:47:29Z kcodrgkimd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T14:47:42Z kcodrgkimd joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:50:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-14T14:53:04Z DrCode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T15:02:31Z man213 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-14T15:08:00Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T15:09:24Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-10-14T15:11:31Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T15:11:57Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-14T15:12:06Z kcodrgkimd: Hello #lisp, I am writing some code to represent a grid of cells using different approaches for learning purposes, I am currently initializing my grid in 2 steps, using a hash-table like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/328529 . Before this I used a 2 dimensional array to access with (aref cells x y). I am now trying to do it with a plist, similar to the example in the link, I could also do 2 steps: Create 2016-10-14T15:12:06Z kcodrgkimd: the empty list and then push the plist elements in a nested `dotimes` loop, but I was wondering whether I could use `loop` in combination with `collect`, to create it in one go, but I can't quite wrap my head around it. 2016-10-14T15:13:51Z vento joined #lisp 2016-10-14T15:16:16Z Grue`: unless you want to do some modulo arithmetic, you need a nested loop to go through all the indexes of a 2d grid 2016-10-14T15:18:06Z kcodrgkimd: I know, my phrasing is a bit weird, I'm sorry, what I mean is a nested `loop` in combination with `collect` instead of a nested `dotimes` in combination with `push`. 2016-10-14T15:19:02Z kcodrgkimd: Or is this generally a bad idea? 2016-10-14T15:19:26Z H4ns: (loop for x below 10 collect (loop for y below 10 collect (list :x x :y y))) ? 2016-10-14T15:19:32Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-10-14T15:19:36Z Grue`: loop is strictly more powerful than dotimes, so you can easily replace dotimes with loop 2016-10-14T15:19:46Z H4ns: kcodrgkimd: not sure what you mean by "bad idea"? 2016-10-14T15:20:30Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T15:20:37Z Colleen joined #lisp 2016-10-14T15:23:32Z kcodrgkimd: H4ns: I'm not sure, hence the question, what I mean by it is whether there are reasons why one should not do it (performance, considered bad style etc.) 2016-10-14T15:24:34Z H4ns: kcodrgkimd: in general, i would say that common lisp caters for a large number of styles and there is no general agreement on anything. for example, some people hate loops, other people love it. 2016-10-14T15:25:03Z Grue`: you're putting a 2d grid into a plist, I'd say that's pretty bad style by itself ;) 2016-10-14T15:25:24Z H4ns: Grue`: i'd agree, but it might be only the two of us who agree :) 2016-10-14T15:26:45Z Grue`: it could probably work for some really sparse matrices 2016-10-14T15:27:17Z kcodrgkimd: H4ns: About the example, I want to achieve something more like this (:(0 . 0) CELL :(0 . 1) CELL :(0 . 2) CELL ...) like I am currently doing with the hash-table. 2016-10-14T15:27:32Z kcodrgkimd: Is it? Same for my current approach? 2016-10-14T15:28:19Z Grue`: there's no such thing as :(0 . 0) 2016-10-14T15:28:20Z H4ns: kcodrgkimd: no. :(0 . 0) is not valid syntax. 2016-10-14T15:28:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-14T15:28:52Z Grue`: you can't have a plist with keys which are conses, because conses can't be compared with EQL 2016-10-14T15:30:00Z kcodrgkimd: Oh I see, am I not able to modify the lookup :test with plists? 2016-10-14T15:31:08Z Grue`: well, assoc does accept :test argument, so you might be able do it with alisp 2016-10-14T15:31:12Z Grue`: *alistr 2016-10-14T15:31:22Z Grue`: ugh, alist 2016-10-14T15:33:31Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-14T15:35:36Z kcodrgkimd: I'd also be interested in your opinions of these ways to represent a 2D grid (putting it in a hash-table, using a 2D array, using a plist/alist), can you recommend other approaches? Why is the plist/alist a bad idea? 2016-10-14T15:37:18Z raydeejay: presumably you want random access into the grid by coordinates... one of those is a great match for that 2016-10-14T15:37:46Z kcodrgkimd: Well an obvious reason with the plist now is the fact that the lookup of the coords would not work because of eql, which I did not consider so far 2016-10-14T15:38:16Z sjl: kcodrgkimd: I needed a 2d grid for a little game I wrote a while back, and ended up going with the 2d array approach 2016-10-14T15:38:55Z sjl: it is the fastest approach, and my world wasn't big enough that memory was a problem. 2016-10-14T15:39:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T15:39:28Z sjl: a hash table will save memory for very large+sparsely populated grids 2016-10-14T15:40:23Z sjl: a plist will be O(n) for every lookup, which be really bad unless your grid is REALLY sparse 2016-10-14T15:41:53Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-14T15:42:48Z jasom: Grue`, H4ns you *could* do a plist like: (:|0,0| foo ...) and then getf would work, but again hash-table or 2d array. 2016-10-14T15:43:05Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2016-10-14T15:43:26Z kcodrgkimd: I see, so I guess I already got the most reasonable approaches covered with hash-table and array. 2016-10-14T15:45:30Z jasom: kcodrgkimd: There are really only 2 reasons to use a list over a hash-table for associative data structures: 1) You know you will have fewer than N elements, where N is around 7, but varies with implementation and architecture. 2) You want to be able to treat it immutably (consing onto the front of alist/plist gives the appearence of a write without actually changing the existing list). 2016-10-14T15:48:02Z varjagg joined #lisp 2016-10-14T15:51:19Z oGMo: sjl: even for bigger worlds that or a spatial hierarchy is still the best approach, you can always chunk them if they get too big to hold in memory at once 2016-10-14T15:52:52Z kcodrgkimd: Alright, thank you for your insights 2016-10-14T15:53:02Z hiyosi left #lisp 2016-10-14T15:58:35Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T16:02:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:12:24Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T16:15:07Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:17:38Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:18:23Z josteink joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:18:26Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:18:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:20:21Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:27:26Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:30:14Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T16:30:32Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:31:13Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:31:20Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:32:38Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T16:34:50Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:38:21Z dyelar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T16:38:30Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:38:51Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:40:19Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:40:22Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:40:29Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:42:32Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:43:08Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:45:15Z kolko_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T16:45:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T16:46:40Z phoe: What are the functions to get the numerator and denominator of a rational number? 2016-10-14T16:46:40Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:46:51Z phoe: Oh. 2016-10-14T16:46:58Z phoe: #'NUMERATOR and #'DENOMINATOR. 2016-10-14T16:47:02Z phoe: For some reason, I didn't expect that. 2016-10-14T16:49:09Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:50:29Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T16:51:52Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T16:53:07Z warweasle: Is there a was to refresh your slime colors in emacs. My get wonky sometimes. 2016-10-14T16:53:16Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:53:47Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:55:09Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-14T16:57:07Z rlp10 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T16:59:25Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:00:49Z manuel__ is now known as manuel_ 2016-10-14T17:01:15Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:01:55Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:01:57Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-14T17:02:13Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T17:04:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:05:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T17:07:09Z b3atr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-14T17:07:54Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:11:06Z warweasle: Anyone remember the function to remove a function 2016-10-14T17:11:21Z phoe: warweasle: #'fmakunbound 2016-10-14T17:11:51Z warweasle: phoe: Thanks. I can never remember it. 2016-10-14T17:11:55Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:16:07Z phoe: warweasle: it's simple 2016-10-14T17:16:11Z phoe: all you need to remember is makunbound 2016-10-14T17:16:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:16:18Z phoe: which is for symbols 2016-10-14T17:16:20Z phoe: and then you add f 2016-10-14T17:17:20Z flip214: and getf makeunboundf 2016-10-14T17:19:09Z phoe: flip214: wat 2016-10-14T17:19:31Z flip214: I added "f" to makeunbound 2016-10-14T17:19:35Z flip214: as per your request ;) 2016-10-14T17:19:46Z flip214: and for good measure to the "get" also 2016-10-14T17:19:51Z flip214: never mind, friday night. 2016-10-14T17:21:48Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T17:23:01Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:24:55Z danlentz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T17:25:34Z danlentz joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:26:36Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:26:53Z vento quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-14T17:28:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T17:32:15Z jasom: phoe: newer lisp functions don't try to cram the name into 5 characters (which was one machine word on PDPs) 2016-10-14T17:35:22Z Walex quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-14T17:36:26Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:37:07Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:37:36Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T17:37:41Z phoe: jasom: I know. 2016-10-14T17:37:52Z phoe: and is the case in ulisp nowadays. 2016-10-14T17:37:53Z warweasle: Why didn't they use the e on f mak unbound? 2016-10-14T17:38:13Z warweasle: They use make everywhere else..with dashes. 2016-10-14T17:38:16Z cpape joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:38:19Z phoe: ulisp has three characters though. 2016-10-14T17:38:19Z phoe: warweasle: space constraints. 2016-10-14T17:38:19Z phoe: what jasom said. 2016-10-14T17:39:07Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:39:51Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:40:54Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:42:58Z phoe: warweasle: probably compatibility issues. 2016-10-14T17:43:08Z phoe: like, backwards compatibility. 2016-10-14T17:45:33Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:46:20Z rtmpdavid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T17:50:22Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:53:17Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-10-14T17:57:29Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-14T18:00:05Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:00:45Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:01:24Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:04:23Z Guest4723 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:05:57Z Guest4723 left #lisp 2016-10-14T18:06:30Z bandu joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:07:09Z axion quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-14T18:07:20Z rlp10 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-10-14T18:08:39Z Th30n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T18:09:04Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:11:32Z pjb: (length "fmakunbound") #| --> 11 |# on 18 or 36-bit words, with 6-bit characters, you could store names of 6 characters in a single 36-bit words, and of 12 characters in two 36-bit words. 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2016-10-14T18:56:29Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:56:44Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:57:01Z jasom: pjb`: did they not need a terminating marker? 2016-10-14T18:57:35Z aerique joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:57:42Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:57:43Z wyan joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:57:48Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:58:01Z sebboh joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:58:14Z sukaeto joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:58:56Z sebboh: hi all. Happy Friday. See this variable? https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-graph/blob/master/dev/graphviz/graphviz-support.lisp#L499 I haven't been able to override it, probably because I don't know something about scope, or I don't know what I don't know. 2016-10-14T18:58:57Z angular_mike_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:59:14Z jasom: phoe: they don't seem to use the variable foo anywhere 2016-10-14T18:59:18Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T18:59:51Z jasom: also this might be the first blackboard with syntax highlighting I've ever seen 2016-10-14T19:00:36Z fouric is unhappy he didn't think of that first 2016-10-14T19:00:38Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:02:07Z sebboh: I'm in a slime repl and I have quickload'd my own project which has a package def that includes something like (:use #:cl #:cl-graph). So when I call a function that depends on *dot-path*, I just do it like this, in the slime repl... (graph->dot-external *uni* "abc.dot") And it fails because my dot binary lives in my home directory. 2016-10-14T19:02:10Z pkkm joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:02:50Z sebboh: I tried (setf *dot-path* "/home/sebboh/bin/dot"), no love. I tried (defvar *dot-path* "/home/sebboh/bin/dot"), no love. 2016-10-14T19:02:57Z _death: sebboh: (setf metabang.graph::*dot-path* ...) 2016-10-14T19:03:03Z sebboh: Aha!! 2016-10-14T19:03:14Z sebboh: Scope, or whatever this is called. I knew it. 2016-10-14T19:03:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:03:36Z rpg: sebboh: namespaces (package) 2016-10-14T19:03:39Z aaronjensen joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:03:40Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:03:40Z sebboh: Thanks 2016-10-14T19:03:41Z jasom: sebboh: The generic term is namespaces, the lisp term is package 2016-10-14T19:04:03Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:04:28Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:04:41Z phoe: jasom: ayup, that's a trao 2016-10-14T19:04:42Z phoe: trap 2016-10-14T19:04:44Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T19:05:41Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:05:56Z jasom: sebboh: C++ calls their :: operator the scope operator for historical reasons; in the original C++ namespaces were just things lexically scoped to structs/classes. 2016-10-14T19:05:57Z kobain is now known as Guest13554 2016-10-14T19:05:57Z attila_lendvai is now known as Guest38208 2016-10-14T19:06:00Z fouric: question: is it possible to make two symbols with different string representations (such as "foo" and "bar") intern to the same symbol? 2016-10-14T19:06:12Z fouric: er 2016-10-14T19:06:29Z fouric: "two very different (not just case etc) strings intern to the same symbol" 2016-10-14T19:06:35Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:06:39Z phoe: not really 2016-10-14T19:06:43Z sebboh: so, because *dot-path* is defined in a file which is in package metabang.graph... I have to set that one. How might I modify cl-graph so that it will look for a current-namespace instance of *dot-path*, first, and use the one from the metabang.graph package only as a fallback? (Most users will only have the fallback defined.) 2016-10-14T19:06:54Z _death: fouric: a symbol has one name.. you can have a function that returns the same symbol whatever string it gets of course :) 2016-10-14T19:07:06Z phoe: if STRING-A is not STRING= to STRING-B then they will intern to different symbols. 2016-10-14T19:07:10Z phoe: wait 2016-10-14T19:07:14Z phoe: is not STRING-EQUAL 2016-10-14T19:07:23Z phoe: actually wait, STRING=. 2016-10-14T19:07:39Z fouric: got it 2016-10-14T19:07:43Z fouric: ty phoe and _death 2016-10-14T19:07:57Z phoe: worse, you can have different symbols with the same name. 2016-10-14T19:07:59Z jasom: on some implementations you can intern a mutable string and then change it, but that is never a good idea and undefined by the standard 2016-10-14T19:08:11Z phoe: (eq (make-symbol "FOO") (make-symbol "FOO)) 2016-10-14T19:08:24Z phoe: (eq (make-symbol "FOO") (make-symbol "FOO")) ;; this, actually 2016-10-14T19:09:07Z ggole_ quit 2016-10-14T19:09:09Z axion joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:09:54Z _death: sebboh: you should read about packages. this has nothing to do with files, and you don't need to modify cl-graph (except maybe make *dot-path* an exported symbol).. in your program you should setf cl-graph::*dot-path* and that's ok 2016-10-14T19:11:06Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:11:22Z sebboh: FWIW I wouldn't have described it incorrectly if I knew what I was talking about. 2016-10-14T19:11:31Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:11:47Z earl-ducaine__ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:11:57Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-14T19:12:12Z axion quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-14T19:12:22Z earl-ducaine___ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:12:24Z axion joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:12:32Z axion quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-14T19:13:01Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T19:14:05Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:14:11Z axion joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:14:27Z axion quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-14T19:15:21Z Guest13554 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T19:15:21Z Guest38208 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T19:15:26Z pchrist joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:15:34Z sebboh: What does it mean, in a package definition, when there is a form like this? (:export ... (:export ...)) For example: https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-graph/blob/master/dev/package.lisp#L183 2016-10-14T19:16:39Z raydeejay: it means that you're reading it wrong :D 2016-10-14T19:16:44Z akkad: boss left. time to sneak more cl in 2016-10-14T19:16:44Z hue_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:16:49Z hue_: hue 2016-10-14T19:16:51Z hue_: hue 2016-10-14T19:16:54Z hue_: hue 2016-10-14T19:16:59Z hue_: i am made of hue 2016-10-14T19:17:01Z raydeejay: those (:export ...) forms are not nested 2016-10-14T19:17:02Z hue_: roses are hue 2016-10-14T19:17:05Z hue_: violets are hue 2016-10-14T19:17:08Z hue_: your mom 2016-10-14T19:17:11Z hue_: lisp is bad 2016-10-14T19:17:12Z hue_ left #lisp 2016-10-14T19:17:44Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T19:18:04Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-14T19:18:20Z sebboh: Those export forms are NOT nested. 2016-10-14T19:18:34Z sebboh: ok, why are there two of them? 2016-10-14T19:18:37Z akkad: я знаю 2016-10-14T19:19:31Z raydeejay: I have absolutely no idea \o/ 2016-10-14T19:19:54Z phoe: sebboh: because there can be multiple of these. 2016-10-14T19:20:01Z phoe: clhs defpackage 2016-10-14T19:20:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 2016-10-14T19:20:26Z alexherb1 is now known as alexherbo2 2016-10-14T19:20:26Z sebboh: ok. So there's no runtime difference. 2016-10-14T19:20:31Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:21:02Z raydeejay: to be fair, that's the answer to "why does this load correctly" or something similar, not to "why are there two" :) 2016-10-14T19:21:32Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:21:32Z phoe: well 2016-10-14T19:21:34Z phoe: uh 2016-10-14T19:21:43Z phoe: ask the person who wrote that code 2016-10-14T19:22:17Z sebboh: yes :) Probably the answer is not even "to organize the file for readability"... probably the answer is "because the top of that first export was so far away that when someone wanted to add some exports, they started a fresh one, just in case, which is supported." :) 2016-10-14T19:22:20Z diphuser joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:23:05Z sebboh: gwkkwq did it in 2006. 2016-10-14T19:23:13Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:23:17Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:23:30Z froggey_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:23:39Z axion joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:23:44Z froggey quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-10-14T19:23:52Z froggey_ is now known as froggey 2016-10-14T19:23:52Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:24:42Z jasom joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:25:31Z Davidbrcz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T19:25:43Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:25:56Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:28:01Z Davidbrcz quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-14T19:29:30Z warweasle quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T19:29:53Z swflint_away quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T19:29:53Z itruslove quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T19:30:04Z nicdev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T19:30:04Z shymega quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-14T19:30:06Z Guest98871 is now known as z0d 2016-10-14T19:30:57Z shymega joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:31:09Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:31:11Z nicdev joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:32:09Z vapid_ is now known as EXECUTIONER_TIZE 2016-10-14T19:32:14Z EXECUTIONER_TIZE is now known as TIZENHAROM_HARMI 2016-10-14T19:32:25Z TIZENHAROM_HARMI is now known as vapid 2016-10-14T19:33:17Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:34:11Z itruslove joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:34:14Z shrdlu68: Hello. What exactly does it mean to intern a symbol into a package? 2016-10-14T19:34:41Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:34:46Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2016-10-14T19:35:58Z akkad: namespace 2016-10-14T19:35:59Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:36:37Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-14T19:37:49Z lucasb_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-14T19:42:43Z phoe: shrdlu68: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 2016-10-14T19:42:49Z phoe: I became smarter after reading this text. 2016-10-14T19:43:14Z haeue joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:43:16Z haeue: hue 2016-10-14T19:43:18Z haeue: hue 2016-10-14T19:43:19Z phoe: As in, no irony or sarcasm - it really is good. 2016-10-14T19:43:22Z haeue left #lisp 2016-10-14T19:43:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:44:29Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:44:56Z attila_lendvai quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-14T19:44:57Z shrdlu68: I think I get it. "interned adj. Trad. 1. (of a symbol) accessible[3] in any package. 2. (of a symbol in a specific package) present in that package." 2016-10-14T19:45:01Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:45:22Z raydeejay: layman's terms: interning a symbol means creating it 2016-10-14T19:47:10Z shrdlu68: So (intern "foo") simply places the symbol into the current package, but the symbol's "cells" are empty, i.e the plist, function, variable, etc. 2016-10-14T19:47:27Z phoe: raydeejay: nononono 2016-10-14T19:47:28Z phoe: (make-symbol "FOO") 2016-10-14T19:47:30Z phoe: this is creation 2016-10-14T19:48:12Z phoe: interning a symbol means, placing it into a package. 2016-10-14T19:48:23Z shrdlu68: But what good does it do to have a symbol whose cells are empty? 2016-10-14T19:48:41Z phoe: well - you have it 2016-10-14T19:48:42Z phoe: you can use it now. 2016-10-14T19:48:48Z phoe: you can compare other symbols to it using EQL for example. 2016-10-14T19:49:13Z phoe: a lone symbol is an atom of data that is EQL only to itself. 2016-10-14T19:49:37Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:50:05Z phoe: and, once you have that symbol, only then you can assign a value to it. :D 2016-10-14T19:50:35Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T19:50:36Z phoe: be it a variable value, a function value, a symbol-plist entry, a condition, and so on. 2016-10-14T19:50:41Z raydeejay: well, yes, but then (intern "meh") doesn't necessarily place it the package if its already there 2016-10-14T19:50:59Z raydeejay: 's* 2016-10-14T19:51:11Z shrdlu68: Explains why (defpackage :foo) (in-package :foo) (defparameter *bar* 0) borks. 2016-10-14T19:51:13Z phoe: raydeejay: yep, but then again, #'INTERN does not always intern. 2016-10-14T19:51:23Z phoe: shrdlu68: actually 2016-10-14T19:51:28Z raydeejay: so the best answer is go read the hyperspec 2016-10-14T19:51:32Z raydeejay: :D 2016-10-14T19:51:42Z phoe: the reader automatically interns all symbols it encounters. 2016-10-14T19:52:01Z phoe: so you can check it for yourself 2016-10-14T19:52:01Z phoe: (defpackage :foo) (in-package :foo) 2016-10-14T19:52:10Z rpg: phoe: You can test with EQ, not just EQL. 2016-10-14T19:52:12Z phoe: inspect package FOO 2016-10-14T19:52:14Z phoe: see how many symbols it has 2016-10-14T19:52:23Z phoe: rpg: right 2016-10-14T19:52:34Z rpg: interning a symbol means making it a unique thing that has identity. 2016-10-14T19:52:49Z phoe: once in that package, type '*bar* 2016-10-14T19:52:49Z phoe: inspect the package again 2016-10-14T19:52:49Z phoe: it'll have one symbol more. 2016-10-14T19:52:59Z rpg: "Fred" and "Fred" might be identical or just equivalent.... 2016-10-14T19:53:11Z jasom: (eq (intern "FOO" "BAR") 'bar::foo) ; => t 2016-10-14T19:53:19Z rpg: but 'fred and 'fred (interned symbols) are guaranteed to be identical. 2016-10-14T19:53:51Z rpg: They are cheap to compare, and can have properties attached to them.... 2016-10-14T19:55:05Z shrdlu68: Why does (defpackage :foo) (in-package :foo) (defparameter *bar* 0) complain about *bar* being unbound? 2016-10-14T19:55:06Z jasom: I also use intern in certain corner cases of the loader; (load "foo") (funcall (intern "BAR" "BAZ")) will work when "foo" defines the package baz, but (load "foo") (baz::bar) may not work. 2016-10-14T19:55:30Z jasom: shrdlu68: because that's foo::defparameter not cl::defparameter 2016-10-14T19:55:50Z jasom: shrdlu68: you didn't have package foo USE package CL 2016-10-14T19:55:51Z shrdlu68 laughs at self. 2016-10-14T19:55:55Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2016-10-14T19:57:51Z phoe: jasom: that's dangerously implementation-dependent 2016-10-14T19:58:22Z phoe: for one implementation I had to explicitly define an empty use list because it auto-imported package CL into it 2016-10-14T19:58:57Z _death: jasom: (load "foo") (baz::bar) should work.. as long as the forms are read one by one 2016-10-14T19:59:10Z shrdlu68: Is there another language that has such a concept of symbols? 2016-10-14T19:59:39Z phoe: Ruby stole it from Lisp, methinks 2016-10-14T20:00:22Z _death: read http://adeht.org/usenet-gems/data-hygiene.txt 2016-10-14T20:01:04Z diphuser quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T20:02:00Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-14T20:02:42Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:05:25Z rpg: Prolog has a similar namespace mechanism. 2016-10-14T20:06:20Z rpg: Most languages don't need a package-like framework because you can throw away the names while you're compiling... You don't, for example, dereference strings to find functions in C. 2016-10-14T20:06:22Z jasom: phoe: what is implementation dependent? 2016-10-14T20:06:24Z akkad: matz admits it 2016-10-14T20:06:28Z ramus joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:06:45Z jasom: phoe: oh a non-specified :use 2016-10-14T20:07:13Z jasom: rpg: the package framework of lisp also really helps with macro hygiene 2016-10-14T20:07:14Z raydeejay: rpg: of course you do, it's just that you have to half-ass it yourself :D 2016-10-14T20:07:20Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:08:08Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:08:31Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T20:08:45Z varjagg is now known as erjag 2016-10-14T20:09:39Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-14T20:09:48Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T20:10:31Z jasom: Pretty much all modern languages have some sort of namespace system; first-class symbols is what is unusual 2016-10-14T20:10:36Z raydeejay: mmm... given GENSYM, packages, and Lisp-N, and judicious use of those, what potential issues are left? 2016-10-14T20:10:55Z phoe: raydeejay: whether P equals NP 2016-10-14T20:10:59Z raydeejay: Smalltalk has symbol literals like #this, which are akin to keywords 2016-10-14T20:11:25Z raydeejay: "given GENSYM, packages, and Lisp-N, and judicious use of those, what potential macro hygiene issues are left?"? 2016-10-14T20:12:42Z erjag is now known as varjagg 2016-10-14T20:13:50Z jasom: raydeejay: (defun foo ...) (defmacro bar ... (foo ...) ...) (flet ((foo ...)) (bar)) 2016-10-14T20:14:06Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:14:24Z jasom: raydeejay: many languages have some equivalent to keywords, and they often call them symbols. 2016-10-14T20:14:52Z shrdlu68: I don't know why I find it such an alien concept that symbols don't even have to have names. 2016-10-14T20:15:45Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:15:52Z jasom: shrdlu68: I believe that they always have names in common lisp 2016-10-14T20:16:20Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:16:28Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T20:16:43Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:17:14Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:17:25Z raydeejay: jasom: so "the programmer" then? 2016-10-14T20:17:47Z phoe: they have names. 2016-10-14T20:17:55Z phoe: each symbol has a string inside it. 2016-10-14T20:18:06Z jasom: raydeejay: well it can happen unintentionally if "FOO" is accessible in both the package where the macro is defined and the package where the macro is used 2016-10-14T20:18:08Z shrdlu68: jasom: Oh, so in (gensym) => #:G449 "G449" is the name? 2016-10-14T20:18:11Z raydeejay: isn't the symbol itself the name? 2016-10-14T20:18:13Z phoe: it can be an empty string, sure, because (make-symbol "") works. 2016-10-14T20:18:20Z phoe: yup. 2016-10-14T20:18:21Z jasom: shrdlu68: correct 2016-10-14T20:18:29Z phoe: raydeejay: not really 2016-10-14T20:18:30Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:18:32Z phoe: a symbol is a structure 2016-10-14T20:18:37Z phoe: its name is one of its fields. 2016-10-14T20:18:53Z raydeejay hums for a while 2016-10-14T20:19:06Z raydeejay: would you be willing to call that an implementation detail? 2016-10-14T20:19:06Z pjb`: (defstruct symbol name value plist function package) 2016-10-14T20:19:15Z jasom: raydeejay: but if the person who created foo and bar made bar external and foo internal, then consumers of the macro can't accidentally do that (they can still (flet ((yourpackage::foo ...)) ...) but at that point they know they're changing the behavior of the macro 2016-10-14T20:19:16Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T20:19:37Z phoe: clhs symbol-name 2016-10-14T20:19:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_2.htm 2016-10-14T20:19:51Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:19:58Z phoe: (eq symbol (symbol-name symbol)) ;=> NIL 2016-10-14T20:20:09Z phoe: so I doubt a symbol is its own name 2016-10-14T20:20:13Z jasom: raydeejay: combined with the fact that you're not allowed to FLET symbols in common-lisp you can make macros hygienic from a practical point of view 2016-10-14T20:20:26Z jasom: a symbols name is of type string so cannot be the same as the symbol 2016-10-14T20:20:28Z rpg: phoe: No, a symbol is a symbol and a symbol's name is a string 2016-10-14T20:20:41Z haeue joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:20:58Z jasom: symbols do name other things (e.g. most function names are symbols) 2016-10-14T20:21:06Z phoe: rpg: what I mean is, a symbol is a complex thing 2016-10-14T20:21:18Z phoe: with its name, a string, being just one of its components 2016-10-14T20:21:20Z raydeejay: I meant conceptually 2016-10-14T20:21:20Z shrdlu68: So when are symbols used as standalone datatypes, apart from the ubiquitous keyword symbols? 2016-10-14T20:21:31Z phoe: shrdlu68: whever the programmer wants them to be 2016-10-14T20:21:36Z raydeejay: in other words, can you have two different symbols, in the same package, with the same name? 2016-10-14T20:21:44Z jasom: shrdlu68: all the time; (funcall '+ 1 2) 2016-10-14T20:21:51Z phoe: raydeejay: no 2016-10-14T20:21:55Z jasom: raydeejay: you cannot have two different symbols in the same package with the same name 2016-10-14T20:22:01Z rpg: phoe: SYMBOL-VALUE, SYMBOL-FUNCTION, etc 2016-10-14T20:22:18Z jasom: you can have two different symbols with the same name that are not in the same package (either uninterned or interned in different packages) 2016-10-14T20:22:27Z phoe: rpg: yes 2016-10-14T20:22:34Z raydeejay: so in that regard, the name is unique, and it represents, in a symbolical way, the symbol 2016-10-14T20:22:42Z phoe: within a package? yes 2016-10-14T20:22:45Z phoe: globally? hell no 2016-10-14T20:22:48Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T20:22:50Z raydeejay: globally no 2016-10-14T20:22:57Z raydeejay: because packages act as NAME-spaces 2016-10-14T20:23:00Z raydeejay: I get that 2016-10-14T20:23:19Z jasom: raydeejay: (eq '#:foo '#:foo) ;=> nil 2016-10-14T20:23:54Z haeue is now known as hauh3 2016-10-14T20:24:01Z jasom: raydeejay: two different symbols both named "FOO" neither one in a package 2016-10-14T20:24:25Z raydeejay: indeed 2016-10-14T20:24:43Z raydeejay: fortunately, I did specify "in the same package" 2016-10-14T20:24:59Z jasom: raydeejay: gensym uses unique names to make reading macroexpansions easier, not because there is any reason that they need unique names. 2016-10-14T20:25:16Z shrdlu68: I'm getting the impression that the likes of #'gensym and #'gentemp are used rarely. 2016-10-14T20:25:20Z rpg: I believe that these are just unpredictable -- you can't guarantee that (eq '#:foo '#:foo) returns NIL. I *think* an implementation might be free to make them EQ. 2016-10-14T20:25:36Z jasom: just imagine having to read: (let ((#:GENSYM x) (#:GENSYM y)) (list #:GENSYM #:GENSYM)) 2016-10-14T20:25:49Z jasom: rpg: wrogn 2016-10-14T20:25:54Z jasom: #: introduces an uninterned symbol whose name is symbol-name. Every time this syntax is encountered, a distinct uninterned symbol is created. The symbol-name must have the syntax of a symbol with no package prefix. 2016-10-14T20:26:14Z rpg: jasom: does that expand to MAKE-SYMBOL? 2016-10-14T20:26:26Z jasom: rpg: it probably does, but is not required to 2016-10-14T20:27:10Z rpg: If it's MAKE-SYMBOL, then you're right: it's required to return a *newly-allocated* symbol with that name 2016-10-14T20:27:37Z rpg: GENSYM is often used in macros if you want to make a macro that has local variables that are guaranteed to be unique 2016-10-14T20:28:56Z bluezone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-14T20:28:59Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:29:34Z jasom: rpg: which is why it creates unique names; you can then read macroexpansions without needing print-circle enabled 2016-10-14T20:29:41Z shrdlu68: rpg: I was wondering about that the other day, for macros that take encpsulate &body in a let'd lexical scope. 2016-10-14T20:30:02Z hauh3 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-14T20:31:37Z klltkr quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-14T20:31:47Z rpg: jasom: Never thought about that. Good point -- the unique names are only for our benefit. 2016-10-14T20:33:33Z jasom: shrdlu68: Making a macro creates a list of two arguments: (defmacro foo (x y) (let ((xsym (gensym "X"))(ysym (gensym "Y"))) `(let ((,xsym ,x)(,ysym ,y)) (list ,xsym ,ysym)) 2016-10-14T20:34:14Z raydeejay scratches head 2016-10-14T20:34:19Z raydeejay: just imagine having to read: (let ((#:GENSYM x) (#:GENSYM y)) (list #:GENSYM #:GENSYM)) 2016-10-14T20:34:23Z raydeejay: how would that work? 2016-10-14T20:35:57Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:35:59Z Th30n quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-14T20:36:32Z jasom: shrdlu68: here's an indented version http://paste.lisp.org/+71IG note that it only evaluates its arguments once and it only establishes new bindings to unique symbols 2016-10-14T20:36:36Z rpg: raydeejay: that wouldn't be a readable representation -- because it wouldn't capture which symbols were EQ with each other.... That's why jasom was talking about circular printing 2016-10-14T20:36:54Z raydeejay: ahhhh 2016-10-14T20:37:07Z jasom: raydeejay: pretend that gensym always returned a symbol named "GENSYM" that's what printing out macro expansions would look like; totally unusable to a human. 2016-10-14T20:37:25Z raydeejay: I was taking it as something to read, not something printed 2016-10-14T20:37:39Z jasom: the human is the reader in this case, as opposed to READ 2016-10-14T20:37:46Z jasom: sorry for the confusion 2016-10-14T20:37:55Z phoe: one thing about reading printed uninterned symbols 2016-10-14T20:38:05Z shrdlu68 was in the same confusion. 2016-10-14T20:38:17Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:38:21Z phoe: (let ((symbol (gensym))) (print symbol) (print symbol)) 2016-10-14T20:38:35Z phoe: (eq (read) (read)) here will give you NIL 2016-10-14T20:38:47Z phoe: because of the #: reader macro. 2016-10-14T20:39:00Z phoe: the gensym will print as #:G102 #:G102 for example. 2016-10-14T20:39:11Z _death: jasom: there's no need to pretend, can just use (make-symbol "GENSYM") 2016-10-14T20:39:23Z phoe: but when read, the reader will create *two* distinct symbols that each print as #:G102. 2016-10-14T20:39:32Z jasom: (let ((*print-circle* t)) (let ((x (gensym))) (print (list x x)))) 2016-10-14T20:39:57Z rpg: jasom: Do we want *print-readably* T also? 2016-10-14T20:40:02Z jasom: _death: we are still pretending that GENSYM has different behavior though. 2016-10-14T20:40:04Z _death: (dolist (circle '(t nil)) (let ((a (make-symbol "GENSYM")) (b (make-symbol "GENSYM"))) (write `(let ((,a x) (,b y)) (list ,a ,b)) :circle circle)) (terpri)) 2016-10-14T20:40:13Z seg_ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:40:43Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:40:52Z jasom: rpg: if you are actually going to read it in again, print-readably is a good idea; however numbers, symbols, lists and a few other things are readable just with *print-escape* as t 2016-10-14T20:41:23Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:41:31Z jasom: rpg: in fact none of the standard print functions bind *print-readably* to true IIRC 2016-10-14T20:41:56Z jasom: rpg: even the ones that say they are "intended to be acceptable to read" 2016-10-14T20:42:20Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T20:42:20Z seg_ is now known as seg 2016-10-14T20:42:53Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-14T20:45:12Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T20:47:20Z scymtym: pipping: when looking into the DIRECTORY patch i realized that i would like to first update the documentation string to state the intended behavior w.r.t the shape of PATHSPEC and RESOLVE-SYMLINKS. do you already have a specification for this? if not, i will try to come up with one and get back to you 2016-10-14T20:48:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T20:48:27Z shrdlu68: "A package is a collection of Lisp symbols with the proprty such that no two symbols in the collection have the same name"~concise description. 2016-10-14T20:49:35Z _death: packages, like symbols, are full blown objects.. not merely a "collection" of things 2016-10-14T20:50:47Z _death: a better definition is found in the CLHS glossary: package n. an object of type package. 2016-10-14T20:51:25Z raydeejay: it's a brilliant definition which doubles as a lousy explanation 2016-10-14T20:52:19Z _death: well, in the hyperspec, the last "package" is a link 2016-10-14T20:53:09Z shrdlu68: _death: Yes, packages are listed as one of the data types in CLtL. The definition doesn't capture that aspect right. 2016-10-14T20:53:13Z prxq: "elefant n. an animal of fat type with a trunk" 2016-10-14T20:54:06Z prxq: the definition is wonderful, as the package on the left is a different thing than the package on the right 2016-10-14T20:56:02Z pjb`: _death: I don't know why people find formal semantics boring. It's full of such things. I find it mesmerizing. 2016-10-14T20:56:15Z raydeejay: well, yes, but it qualifies the package on the left as "object" and the one on the right as "type", so as a definition it defines quite well 2016-10-14T20:56:19Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-14T20:57:44Z prxq: i suppose that fact had to be stated somewhere, true enough. 2016-10-14T20:58:50Z shrdlu68: http://flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf must be out of date or something. It says that #'intern doesn't actually enter a symbol into a package, and that that is done with #'import. 2016-10-14T20:59:03Z pjb`: It's correct. 2016-10-14T20:59:12Z pjb`: See the definition of intern in any implementation. 2016-10-14T21:00:02Z shrdlu68: "intern enters a symbol named string into package." 2016-10-14T21:00:10Z pjb`: eg. https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-reader/package-fun.lisp#L1360 2016-10-14T21:01:49Z vapid left #lisp 2016-10-14T21:04:12Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T21:08:41Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:09:03Z jasom: shrdlu68: A package is a mapping from strings to symbols 2016-10-14T21:09:58Z jasom: shrdlu68: a symbol might be visible in many packages due to importing, use &c. 2016-10-14T21:10:41Z earl-ducaine___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T21:13:53Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:20:44Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T21:21:01Z tessier joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:21:01Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2016-10-14T21:21:01Z tessier joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:24:03Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T21:25:15Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:26:14Z Xach: shrdlu68: packages.pdf is deliberately framed to make packages look like a dumb idea. 2016-10-14T21:26:37Z Xach: poorly and confusingly implemented. 2016-10-14T21:27:24Z Xach: I wish there was a better guide. The one in PCL is pretty good. I'd like to make one too. 2016-10-14T21:27:29Z Xach: So little time! 2016-10-14T21:29:59Z liead is now known as adlai 2016-10-14T21:30:48Z mordocai: For CL packages? Not free, but the package section of Common Lisp Recipes is excellent 2016-10-14T21:32:03Z eivarv_ quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-14T21:32:24Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:33:37Z phoe: ^ 2016-10-14T21:33:39Z trn joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:33:47Z phoe: literally the first chapter in the book 2016-10-14T21:34:29Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:34:51Z prxq: it's really easy to make too much of them. they are fairly simple and do their job well. 2016-10-14T21:35:57Z prxq: no need to buy a book expressly to understand packages. 2016-10-14T21:36:04Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T21:36:36Z _death: wouldn't say packages are simple.. 2016-10-14T21:38:31Z shrdlu68: pjb`: Well it's in direct contradiction with what I'm reading elsewhere, including clhs: "INTERN also will return an existing symbol; otherwise it creates a new symbol with the string as its name and adds it to the package.", from http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 2016-10-14T21:39:20Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T21:40:14Z shrdlu68: Hairy stuff, packages. 2016-10-14T21:40:57Z Xach: Not too badly. 2016-10-14T21:41:04Z prxq: about as hairy as an egg 2016-10-14T21:41:25Z Xach: oeufs 2016-10-14T21:41:28Z nullniverse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T21:42:21Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:42:24Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:44:32Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:45:18Z pipping: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem ? 2016-10-14T21:46:07Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-14T21:48:17Z angavrilov_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T21:48:58Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T21:50:48Z impulse quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-14T21:51:05Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:51:26Z Xach: The key thing is to understand and control what object you get when you write symbol syntax with no package prefix. Package prefixes make things pretty explicit. 2016-10-14T21:52:13Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T21:54:19Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T21:54:42Z pjb` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T21:55:31Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-14T21:57:44Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:00:48Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-14T22:02:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T22:04:08Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:05:32Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:06:00Z ekinmur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T22:06:32Z heurist joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:06:39Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:08:28Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-14T22:08:31Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:09:31Z trinitr01 joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:09:39Z heurist__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T22:11:33Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-14T22:11:54Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-14T22:12:04Z trinitr0n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T22:13:26Z phoe: hell, making Lisp videos is actual hard work 2016-10-14T22:13:47Z Baggers: phoe: it really is 2016-10-14T22:13:56Z Baggers: phoe: are you making some tutorials? 2016-10-14T22:13:57Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:14:01Z phoe: yes 2016-10-14T22:14:06Z Baggers: nice 2016-10-14T22:14:17Z phoe: just grasping all of LOOP in order to be able to show it off 2016-10-14T22:14:21Z phoe: is what's hard 2016-10-14T22:14:23Z trinitr01 is now known as trinitr0n 2016-10-14T22:14:46Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T22:16:18Z phoe: ...ooooh 2016-10-14T22:16:26Z phoe: today I learned about #'MACRO-FUNCTION 2016-10-14T22:16:46Z phoe: and (FUNCALL (MACRO-FUNCTION ...) ...) 2016-10-14T22:16:55Z phoe: now that's sweet <3 2016-10-14T22:18:02Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T22:18:31Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T22:18:43Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:19:12Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:20:53Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-14T22:24:07Z klltkr: I've updated ulubis so that it should be easier for people to try out (no dependence on helper library, loads a configuration file, etc.). I've put in a request to Xach to add all the libraries to quicklisp so it should be pretty simple to install. Code is here https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis 2016-10-14T22:24:49Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:25:32Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T22:25:35Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2016-10-14T22:26:05Z Baggers: hi klltkr 2016-10-14T22:26:21Z klltkr: Hey Baggers :) 2016-10-14T22:26:31Z varjagg: nice 2016-10-14T22:26:32Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T22:26:46Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:27:05Z Baggers: klltkr: it's looking cool! any progress of getting the display size from wayland? 2016-10-14T22:27:42Z Baggers: s/display/window 2016-10-14T22:29:32Z klltkr: So, when the DRM/GBM backend gets set up when cepl.host:request-context is called. This is where it finds out the width and height of the screen 2016-10-14T22:30:35Z klltkr: That's why I was thinking that when CEPL creates its framebuffer it uses a size returned by request-context 2016-10-14T22:31:34Z klltkr: The size of the screen is sort of independent of the Wayland stuff, though there is, as you saw, the cl_output interface that allows the compositor to provide hints to clients about the size of the screen 2016-10-14T22:32:11Z Baggers: klltkr: ah ok, yeah the default framebuffer is out of the hands of cepl. The request-context thing passes on what the user might want the size to be, but it's always up to the host what actually happens 2016-10-14T22:32:15Z Baggers: klltkr: ah, good to know 2016-10-14T22:32:56Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:33:12Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-14T22:33:34Z klltkr: But in make-context (where request-context is called), line 23 creates the default framebuffer 2016-10-14T22:33:40Z klltkr: https://github.com/cbaggers/cepl/blob/360088fe78e65999ba205e0cf62ae763542efdeb/core/context/make.lisp 2016-10-14T22:33:50Z klltkr: And that uses the user-supplied width and height 2016-10-14T22:33:51Z pipping: minion: memo for phoe: have you taken a look at https://asciinema.org? 2016-10-14T22:33:51Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe when he/she/it next speaks. 2016-10-14T22:35:17Z Baggers: klltkr: good point, so my object is lying to the user there. Raising and issue now 2016-10-14T22:35:20Z klltkr: So if I don't pass a width and height to cepl:repl (which would be the ideal situation) it'll give me a 640x480 buffer, i.e. only a corner of the screen will be used 2016-10-14T22:35:45Z klltkr: Sorry, I don't think I made myself clear enough on the issues page 2016-10-14T22:35:57Z Baggers: Ah gotcha. Try making a viewport, and using with-viewport around your rendering 2016-10-14T22:36:23Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:37:19Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-14T22:38:10Z Baggers: klltkr: the default fbo having a size that isn't #'window-dimensions is incorrect. I'll fix that. Sorry I was slow to catch on :) 2016-10-14T22:39:04Z remi`bd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T22:39:47Z sellout-1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-14T22:40:42Z klltkr: Awesome 2016-10-14T22:42:50Z trn quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-14T22:44:08Z klltkr: And sorry for the delay in getting back to you, got distracted with job applications and rewriting the cl-wayland binding generator 2016-10-14T22:44:37Z Baggers: klltkr: no worries at all 2016-10-14T22:44:46Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T22:45:18Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T22:45:54Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:46:26Z Naraka quit (Quit: Naraka) 2016-10-14T22:47:01Z phoe: I like it how #'LOOP is defined on SBCL 2016-10-14T22:47:01Z minion: phoe, memo from pipping: have you taken a look at https://asciinema.org? 2016-10-14T22:47:06Z phoe: and not on CCL / ECL 2016-10-14T22:47:23Z phoe: pipping: oh, I see. sounds nice. 2016-10-14T22:47:25Z phoe: does it record sound? 2016-10-14T22:47:51Z phoe: if it does not - then I'll pass. 2016-10-14T22:48:09Z raydeejay: but you can add the Benny Hill theme afterwards! 2016-10-14T22:48:18Z raydeejay uses recordmydesktop for the occasional video 2016-10-14T22:48:27Z phoe: raydeejay: only if I implement the Benny Hill theme 2016-10-14T22:48:30Z phoe: I use OBS 2016-10-14T22:48:35Z phoe: which is very good 2016-10-14T22:49:07Z raydeejay: my next video will probably be dubbed afterwards 2016-10-14T22:49:14Z raydeejay: and edited 2016-10-14T22:49:49Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:50:00Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T22:53:25Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-14T22:53:29Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-14T22:55:44Z krwq: hey, I'd like to do something like this: (defvar a '(b "asd")) (defvar b) (setq (car a) (cadr a)) but it seems that (car a) is being evaluated too late - how can I evaluate variable name? 2016-10-14T22:55:47Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-14T22:58:00Z jasom: krwq: I see nothing wrong with that (other than the fact that special variables should be named like *a*, which is a convention, not a requirement) 2016-10-14T22:58:09Z Baggers: krwq: that (defvar b) seems odd. it isnt used or set by anything 2016-10-14T22:58:23Z _death: maybe you want (setf (symbol-value (car a)) ...) 2016-10-14T22:58:23Z jasom: oh also you aren't allowed to modify literal lists 2016-10-14T22:58:34Z sjl: it's trying to get the b (the var's symbol) from the car of a 2016-10-14T22:58:37Z sjl: Baggers: ^^^ 2016-10-14T22:58:44Z jasom: and you can't setq (car a) 2016-10-14T22:58:51Z sjl: or at least I think that's what they're trying to do 2016-10-14T22:58:56Z jasom: krwq: perhaps you can tell us what you are trying to do? 2016-10-14T22:59:05Z Baggers: ah so it's a setq v set thing? 2016-10-14T22:59:08Z jasom: sjl: then they can use set 2016-10-14T22:59:23Z krwq: jasom: I'm trying to save couple of variables to a file and restore them later 2016-10-14T22:59:39Z sjl: they want (setq (car a) (cadr a)) to mean (setq ...look up the car of a, which is b, so store in b... (cadr a)) 2016-10-14T22:59:51Z jasom: sjl: that would be (set (car a) (cadr a)) 2016-10-14T22:59:54Z krwq: my idea was to save something like: ((var-name value) (var-name2 val2)) 2016-10-14T23:00:19Z sjl: yep 2016-10-14T23:00:38Z krwq: set works! nice thanks jasom! 2016-10-14T23:00:50Z jasom: krwq: a simpler option would be to have the format be (setf var-name value var-name2 val2) 2016-10-14T23:00:59Z jasom: krwq: then you can just use LOAD to load it 2016-10-14T23:01:02Z krwq: unless there is some easier way - I'm working with elisp right now 2016-10-14T23:01:23Z jasom: krwq: this channel is for common lisp, so can't really help with elisp 2016-10-14T23:01:52Z krwq: jasom: sure but basics are the same + i do (require 'cl) 2016-10-14T23:02:14Z krwq: also i was never able to get any real answer on #emacs 2016-10-14T23:03:07Z krwq: Baggers are you the author of cepl? 2016-10-14T23:03:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:03:14Z Baggers: krwq: yup 2016-10-14T23:03:22Z krwq: nice! good work! 2016-10-14T23:03:37Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-14T23:03:41Z Baggers: krwq: thanks! it's slowly getting there 2016-10-14T23:04:20Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-14T23:04:26Z krwq: Baggers: I watched couple of your videos and that made me start learning lisp. I've started with emacs since CL had too steep learning curve for me 2016-10-14T23:06:12Z Baggers: krwq: :) cool to hear. I don't know much elisp though, I found it a bit more confusing that CL. Have you had a look at the 'land of lisp' book? 2016-10-14T23:06:43Z isoraqathedh: SBCL seems to think that the expansion function of or is #'(macro-function or). That's interesting. 2016-10-14T23:06:47Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:06:51Z krwq: I've tried reading couple of books but I'm always lost once I start learning classes - I got no clue what's going on 2016-10-14T23:07:00Z isoraqathedh: Well, apparently not. 2016-10-14T23:07:07Z isoraqathedh: It's just print syntax. 2016-10-14T23:07:09Z _death: krwq: maybe you'll like ANSI Common Lisp 2016-10-14T23:07:33Z isoraqathedh: It seems like, if a function's name is a list, the first element is always 'setf? 2016-10-14T23:07:44Z _death: isoraqathedh: yes 2016-10-14T23:08:13Z Baggers: krwq: Ah yeah that can be a bit full on at first. I still use very simple classes.. and a lot of structs. But classes are a bit more friendly when changing your code 2016-10-14T23:08:16Z isoraqathedh: It's historical, yes? 2016-10-14T23:08:49Z krwq: i do prefer idea of CL but I need I found elisp slightly more newbie friendly 2016-10-14T23:08:50Z _death: isoraqathedh: do you mean that the past contains this decision? yes 2016-10-14T23:09:02Z isoraqathedh: That setf functions have a name that is a list. 2016-10-14T23:09:20Z isoraqathedh: And only those functions have a name that is a list. 2016-10-14T23:11:14Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:12:26Z kolko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-14T23:14:13Z luis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T23:14:20Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T23:14:49Z Baggers: isoraqathedh: it's not historial in the sense it was a mistake. It's just one of the design decisions of places (and generalized references) http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/05_ab.htm 2016-10-14T23:15:48Z luis joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:19:06Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-14T23:20:40Z shrdlu68: I'me getting significant difference between (- (get-universal-time) (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 1970)) and `date +%s` 2016-10-14T23:21:21Z csziacobus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T23:21:49Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:22:36Z sukaeto: shrdlu68: you're forgetting to set the timezone to 0 2016-10-14T23:23:05Z sukaeto: (it's an optional param to encode-universal-time) 2016-10-14T23:24:00Z shrdlu68: sukaeto: Ah yes, thanks. 2016-10-14T23:24:19Z sukaeto: shrdlu68: no problem :-) 2016-10-14T23:24:39Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:25:33Z OhBoyHereWeGo joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:25:57Z Baggers: goodnight 2016-10-14T23:26:04Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T23:26:19Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-14T23:29:28Z shrdlu68: Goodnight 2016-10-14T23:30:49Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-14T23:32:54Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T23:33:50Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:35:05Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:41:48Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-14T23:48:53Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-14T23:51:10Z warweasle` joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:51:36Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-14T23:51:53Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:56:46Z fUD joined #lisp 2016-10-14T23:57:47Z gendl: Hi, does anyone know if drakma handles TLS 1.2 requests? 2016-10-14T23:58:11Z gendl: (or does any CL http client library?) 2016-10-14T23:58:29Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-14T23:58:51Z gendl: apparently net.aserve.client:do-http-request doesn't (not the portable one or the real Franz one - apparently it's at TLS 1.0 only) 2016-10-14T23:59:19Z _death: drakma uses cl+ssl (openssl wrapper) 2016-10-14T23:59:58Z gendl: Ok, so I should be asking about cl+ssl, not drakma itself then? 2016-10-15T00:00:13Z gendl: let me rephrase: Does cl+ssl support TLS 1.2? 2016-10-15T00:00:54Z _death: it supports whatever openssl supports.. and yes, openssl supports tls 1.2 :) 2016-10-15T00:01:26Z gendl: Thanks. 2016-10-15T00:01:57Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-15T00:05:57Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-15T00:07:09Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T00:10:50Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T00:17:46Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-15T00:17:53Z eivarv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T00:23:33Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-15T00:25:26Z razzy89 quit (Quit: razzy89) 2016-10-15T00:28:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-15T00:28:39Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T00:28:43Z razzy89___ is now known as razzy89 2016-10-15T00:29:14Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T00:29:33Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-15T00:35:17Z razzy89 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-15T00:35:47Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-15T00:38:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T00:38:43Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-10-15T00:38:54Z OhBoyHereWeGo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T00:39:06Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2016-10-15T00:39:06Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-10-15T00:41:11Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T00:41:45Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-15T00:42:18Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-15T00:44:54Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T00:51:22Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T00:54:18Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-15T01:00:56Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T01:08:36Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-15T01:13:36Z titankiller quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T01:14:06Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-15T01:19:51Z warweasle quit (Quit: I'm already here.) 2016-10-15T01:19:59Z warweasle` is now known as warweasle 2016-10-15T01:22:27Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T01:22:27Z cpc26 quit (Changing host) 2016-10-15T01:22:27Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T01:24:20Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T01:27:32Z OhBoyHereWeGo joined #lisp 2016-10-15T01:35:04Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-15T01:37:44Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-15T04:01:29Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-15T04:05:48Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-15T04:08:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T04:08:16Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T04:21:38Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T04:22:31Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-15T04:27:09Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-15T04:29:40Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T04:33:41Z krwq quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-15T04:34:00Z beaky: hello 2016-10-15T04:35:22Z beaky: apart from FEXPRs, mandatory tail recursion, and first-class continuations what else did not make it to common lisp that were loved in previous lisps 2016-10-15T04:35:44Z Bike: fexprs were too obscured to be loved. 2016-10-15T04:35:49Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-15T04:35:51Z Bike: but uh, hunks, off the top of my head. 2016-10-15T04:36:03Z Bike: and i think first class continuations postdate the standard by a bit. 2016-10-15T04:36:07Z Bike: scheme is not, like, super old. 2016-10-15T04:36:20Z beaky: ah 2016-10-15T04:37:36Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-15T04:37:56Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-15T04:40:42Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-15T04:41:22Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T04:48:50Z kami joined #lisp 2016-10-15T04:48:58Z kami: Good morning #lisp 2016-10-15T04:51:49Z fUD quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-15T04:53:15Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T04:53:35Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T04:56:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-15T04:58:52Z kami: I'm working on cffi bindings for a lib and would like to pass a pointer to a lisp object to C-land which is handed back to me in a callback. 2016-10-15T04:59:36Z kami: Can someone please point me to a sample or some doc? 2016-10-15T05:03:32Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T05:03:48Z Bike: that's kind of a tall order in general... garbage collectors tend to move things around 2016-10-15T05:04:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T05:04:21Z cromachina: and asking for a pointer of a lisp object is not something cffi provides 2016-10-15T05:07:19Z cromachina: you could probably have a mapping of pointers to lisp objects though using foreign-alloc and a hash-table 2016-10-15T05:08:12Z easye` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-10-15T05:08:35Z easye joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:09:35Z kami: cromachina, Bike: thanks. I'll try a hash-table with UUIDs as keys and pass the keys as pointers to C. 2016-10-15T05:09:41Z White_Flame: beaky: locatives were around before CL 2016-10-15T05:10:42Z White_Flame: but they're fairly easy to set up as getter/setter lambda pairs anyway 2016-10-15T05:10:43Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:11:48Z beaky: wow nice ware they like haskell lens 2016-10-15T05:12:47Z White_Flame: I'm not sure what a haskell lens is, but a locative is basically akin to a pointer to a slot somewhere 2016-10-15T05:12:59Z beaky probabaly has no idea what locatives are 2016-10-15T05:13:03Z beaky: oh 2016-10-15T05:13:32Z beaky: lambda the ultimate pointer 2016-10-15T05:14:03Z White_Flame: it makes a good amount of sense on a hardware lisp machine, as an easy thing to expose 2016-10-15T05:15:19Z White_Flame: but on modern software CLs, if you have something like a locative pointing to an entry in a byte array, I think a getter/setter is reasonable. 2016-10-15T05:15:25Z tmtwd quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-15T05:16:07Z jahced is now known as fiduche 2016-10-15T05:16:08Z White_Flame: to contain any boxing and conversion issues 2016-10-15T05:16:53Z fUD joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:18:34Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T05:19:07Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:23:26Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T05:23:49Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:28:04Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T05:28:50Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:29:02Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:29:20Z Guthur joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:38:06Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-15T05:43:14Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T05:44:23Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:44:24Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:44:28Z razzy89___ is now known as razzy89 2016-10-15T05:45:53Z tigg joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:58:41Z diphuser joined #lisp 2016-10-15T05:59:15Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-15T06:06:30Z fouric: beaky: are you making a Lisp 2016-10-15T06:06:45Z beaky: nop 2016-10-15T06:07:01Z fouric: Bike: I heard that part of the reason that first-class continuations weren't included was because their interactions with conditions are tricky; true? 2016-10-15T06:07:50Z Bike: i wouldn't know, but i've never heard that and i'm not sure how it would be true. restarts are already more continuation-y than most programming systems allow. 2016-10-15T06:08:22Z Bike: i would not be surprised if no-one even proposed first-class continuations for lisp 2016-10-15T06:08:24Z sword joined #lisp 2016-10-15T06:08:37Z fouric: wow 2016-10-15T06:08:48Z sword is now known as Guest52077 2016-10-15T06:08:52Z fouric doesn't understand how this could be, should probably do some research on Scheme continuations 2016-10-15T06:09:20Z Bike: how what could be 2016-10-15T06:11:45Z fouric: how conditions could act like continuations 2016-10-15T06:13:25Z Bike: i mean... nonlocal exits and entries 2016-10-15T06:13:48Z Bike: can even imagine something ridiculous like dynamic-wind to control restarting into somewhere 2016-10-15T06:18:38Z fouric: Bike: /b 16 2016-10-15T06:18:42Z fouric: sorry 2016-10-15T06:27:12Z White_Flame: beaky: btw, I've done a ton of reading of various pre-CL lisp environments & machines. As far as fundamental language features go, there's not that much left out. But the older systems had very interesting takes on their filesystems, GUIs, development helper/documentation tools, etc 2016-10-15T06:27:54Z beaky: wow what were non-unix filesystems like 2016-10-15T06:27:57Z White_Flame: and yeah, I'm interesting in making my own post-CL one day :-P 2016-10-15T06:28:15Z White_Flame: mostly things like automatic versioning 2016-10-15T06:28:46Z White_Flame: you'd have to manually purge old versions, or set policy as to what's retained 2016-10-15T06:28:55Z White_Flame: but they wouldn't be visible by default 2016-10-15T06:29:08Z wooden_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T06:29:17Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T06:30:39Z White_Flame: I've got a massive chunk of mindmap noting my ideas & gleanings from other lisps 2016-10-15T06:39:33Z pseudonymous quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-15T06:53:03Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T06:54:03Z otjura joined #lisp 2016-10-15T06:54:21Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2016-10-15T06:55:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-15T06:56:37Z fouric: White_Flame: willing to share? :P 2016-10-15T06:56:50Z fouric super interested in Lisp design 2016-10-15T06:57:06Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-15T06:57:25Z White_Flame: it's nothing organized enough to share 2016-10-15T06:57:58Z White_Flame: and of course getting something to behave securely is something that wasn't an issue way back then, that's pretty much a requirement nowadays 2016-10-15T06:58:16Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-15T06:59:21Z White_Flame: but simple things, like pulled from Interlisp, "automatic copyright note addition to files that are exported textually", are nifty little ideas that one might not think of when first writing a system 2016-10-15T07:00:09Z White_Flame: and under the GC section, things to avoid: "there's no way to reclaim refcount cycles, other than save, reboot clean, and rebuild" ;) 2016-10-15T07:02:40Z snits joined #lisp 2016-10-15T07:05:11Z otjura: hello, I'd love to have some feedback on article I wrote a year ago http://otso.neocities.org/essays/thoughts-on-lisp.html 2016-10-15T07:05:42Z otjura: because I'm working on second part now 2016-10-15T07:10:27Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-15T07:10:43Z fouric: otjura: minor nitpick: there are non-Lisp languages that are homoiconic 2016-10-15T07:10:57Z fouric: Red (http://www.red-lang.org/) is an example of this 2016-10-15T07:11:05Z fouric: Joy might also be 2016-10-15T07:11:48Z White_Flame: C also doesn't have sockets in its language standard. The library ecosystem, and especially with Quicklisp, brings those external standards in 2016-10-15T07:12:13Z fouric: it's a fun read, though 2016-10-15T07:12:22Z fouric: it's cool to hear about what brought people to this wonderful language 2016-10-15T07:12:28Z White_Flame: Plus, I don't think you distinguished the runtime-ness of the language against langauges like Java which you mentioned. You can defclass at runtime in Lisp, which is bonkers to an ahead-of-time thinker 2016-10-15T07:13:27Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-15T07:14:53Z fouric: (that's actually sort of startling to *me*) 2016-10-15T07:15:00Z fouric was brought up on C 2016-10-15T07:15:27Z otjura: it sure isn't perfect and all-comprehensive. it's more of a journal of journey kind of thing. 2016-10-15T07:16:23Z White_Flame: the example with sockets is a long-running stigma, though, so I don't think it should be repeated as such, since sockets are available in every major (and pretty much every minor) implementation 2016-10-15T07:17:11Z otjura: sure, but I touched on that issue with "Implementation of lot of things not specified in standard vary by implementation. " 2016-10-15T07:17:49Z White_Flame: and libraries gloss over those differences 2016-10-15T07:18:12Z White_Flame: I vehemently agree that the spec should be updated, though 2016-10-15T07:18:32Z White_Flame: it's just that those involved view that as "spend millions of dollars to have organized meetings and publish something to ANSI" 2016-10-15T07:18:59Z White_Flame: while other languages with smallish audiences just kind of make new specs ;) 2016-10-15T07:20:13Z White_Flame: having an ANSI spec back then was Very Important™ to legitimize itself especially with all the government formalities around Lisp projects 2016-10-15T07:20:31Z White_Flame: nowdays? not so much 2016-10-15T07:24:09Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-15T07:24:26Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-15T07:26:48Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T07:27:12Z Guthur: with a canonical compatibility library the absence of something from the spec is just not really a problem 2016-10-15T07:28:01Z Guthur: the 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reset by peer) 2016-10-15T12:02:44Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-15T12:06:19Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:10:57Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-15T12:15:13Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:15:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:15:28Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-15T12:22:21Z Davidbrcz_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-15T12:25:46Z ak5: can I get roswell to use my systems sbcl somehow? It is downloading new packages and I prefer not to since my net is so slow 2016-10-15T12:26:50Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-15T12:29:00Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:29:34Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:32:10Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:33:51Z fnord____ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:37:40Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:41:09Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-15T12:41:44Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-15T12:43:07Z Davidbrcz_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:43:29Z zeissoctopus joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:44:36Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-15T12:48:56Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-15T12:50:55Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-15T12:51:27Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:53:56Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:54:55Z zeissoctopus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-15T12:56:02Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-15T12:57:27Z Guthur quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-15T13:01:52Z phoe_: pipping: it doesn't support voice. 2016-10-15T13:02:16Z phoe_: and I use a lot of voice in my videos. 2016-10-15T13:03:42Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T13:05:11Z beaky: wow youre writing a voip server in lisp? 2016-10-15T13:07:34Z phoe_: no 2016-10-15T13:07:38Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T13:07:39Z phoe_: I'm recording Lisp videos 2016-10-15T13:07:45Z beaky: wow nice 2016-10-15T13:08:27Z beaky: ive always wanted to watch a master programmer write lisp 2016-10-15T13:09:12Z pipping: ak5: yup, i think that's possible. 2016-10-15T13:11:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-15T13:11:27Z beaky: btw what exactly is roswell is it like haskell's stack or nodejs's nvm or ruby's rvm but for common lisp? 2016-10-15T13:11:50Z phoe_: "intend to be a lisp installer and launcher for major environment that just work." 2016-10-15T13:11:53Z beaky: or is it some kind of metalisp compiler that can automagically build lisp apps for whatever target i want 2016-10-15T13:11:55Z phoe_: via https://github.com/roswell/roswell 2016-10-15T13:11:57Z beaky: oh 2016-10-15T13:18:14Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T13:20:23Z beaky: hmm isnt that what system package managers do already 2016-10-15T13:23:44Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-15T13:35:33Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2016-10-15T13:39:08Z phoe_: system package managers? 2016-10-15T13:39:12Z phoe_: like apt? 2016-10-15T13:39:13Z phoe_ is now known as phoe 2016-10-15T13:43:32Z ak5: pipping: didn't seem to be without installing sbcl-bin via ros (first thing it does on any command). 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I fear roswell is making some stuff really easy but obscuring other things... 2016-10-15T16:13:18Z ak5: right now I wonder how to get a nicer REPL in SBCL (support for up arrow would be nice haha) 2016-10-15T16:13:25Z phoe: oh goodness 2016-10-15T16:14:05Z phoe: you could try linedit. 2016-10-15T16:14:07Z White_Flame: ak5: emacs + SLIME is the best supported lisp IDE 2016-10-15T16:14:18Z pipping: ak5: rlwrap sbcl 2016-10-15T16:14:26Z phoe: or what White_Flame said 2016-10-15T16:15:02Z ak5: Yeah I have emacs/slime setup. So if I start a clack project, I typically invoke quicklisp and everything through there? 2016-10-15T16:15:48Z pipping: ak5: I wouldn't expect it to do a lot of damage in the 'obscuring other things' department 2016-10-15T16:15:50Z White_Flame: I don't use clack, but you should really never find yourself on the raw sbcl repl once you have SLIME going 2016-10-15T16:16:00Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T16:16:27Z loke`: ak5: pretty much, yes. 2016-10-15T16:16:32Z phoe: White_Flame: with one exception that I can note 2016-10-15T16:16:42Z loke`: ak5: You'll be developing inside the same SBCL instance as where you webserver is running. 2016-10-15T16:16:58Z phoe: which is setting up a Lisp image with a multi-connectible swank server 2016-10-15T16:17:04Z phoe: and using emacs to slime-connect to it. 2016-10-15T16:17:09Z loke`: phoe: Sometimes CFFI groveller compile errors needs to be debugged by looking at the raw repl 2016-10-15T16:17:32Z phoe: loke`: that's what I do, set up a screen with sbcl on it 2016-10-15T16:17:38Z White_Flame: phoe: I do that all the time. But the build is scripted, and created inside slime, so nothing is on the raw repl 2016-10-15T16:17:50Z phoe: ooh, I see 2016-10-15T16:18:00Z raydeejay: or... if you want to output some ansi escape sequences 2016-10-15T16:18:45Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-15T16:18:55Z pipping: are you explicitly recommending making yourself a target for https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/286 now? 2016-10-15T16:19:24Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-15T16:20:11Z White_Flame: pipping: ensuring nobody else has access to the box subsumes that security issue 2016-10-15T16:20:30Z sebboh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T16:20:39Z White_Flame: plus, we have to do a magic thing on the running instance to enable swank in the first place ;) 2016-10-15T16:20:43Z sebboh joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:21:00Z pipping: White_Flame: I did read the bug report, yes. 2016-10-15T16:21:03Z ak5: ok I think I got it 2016-10-15T16:21:13Z ak5: not quite sure how to set it up from the persisted file though 2016-10-15T16:21:18Z pipping: I don't agree with the assessment 'I suppose the vast majority of SLIME users are on single-user machines' though 2016-10-15T16:21:22Z ak5: loke`: thanks 2016-10-15T16:22:17Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:22:47Z pipping thinks e.g. of university campi 2016-10-15T16:23:55Z White_Flame: in the vast majority of cases, a single user will probably be on the machine 2016-10-15T16:23:59Z beaky: wow you run lisp on raspberry pis? 2016-10-15T16:24:11Z White_Flame: but it's still a very tenuous statement 2016-10-15T16:25:38Z raydeejay: beaky: yes :D 2016-10-15T16:25:44Z beaky: indeed even my personal machines are being used by hordes of daemons, the cloud, and possibly the NSA 2016-10-15T16:26:55Z ak5: beaky: pretty sure you mean the NSA, the cloud and possibly hordes of daemons :P 2016-10-15T16:27:09Z ak5: anyway thanks for all the help everyone, gn8 2016-10-15T16:27:14Z cpape`` joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:27:16Z beaky: later ak6 2016-10-15T16:27:38Z ak5 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-15T16:27:51Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T16:28:24Z cpape` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T16:28:45Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-15T16:28:51Z shymega quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-15T16:29:08Z ircbrowse quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T16:30:15Z abbe joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:30:38Z ircbrowse joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:30:52Z shymega joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:33:21Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-15T16:35:28Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-15T16:35:41Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:36:40Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-15T16:38:49Z sweater_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T16:40:24Z benny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T16:41:02Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:41:29Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:41:52Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T16:42:07Z benny joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:42:10Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-15T16:43:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:46:14Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:49:06Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-15T16:52:46Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:54:38Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:56:47Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T16:57:04Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-15T16:58:12Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-10-15T17:03:31Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:04:25Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:05:22Z lucasb_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:11:07Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T17:11:26Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:15:30Z QwertyDragon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T17:20:30Z wz1000 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T17:23:15Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:24:45Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T17:24:57Z pierpa quit (Quit: BRB) 2016-10-15T17:25:31Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:26:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:29:01Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:29:15Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-15T17:31:47Z Glitchy: Are there any kafka consumer libraries in CL? 2016-10-15T17:34:46Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T17:36:04Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:37:20Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:37:50Z loke`: Glitchy: Isn't kafka just a JMS server implementation? 2016-10-15T17:39:21Z Glitchy: loke`: I dont think the API is compatible 2016-10-15T17:40:02Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:41:15Z lnostdal quit (Quit: lnostdal) 2016-10-15T17:41:40Z boomer quit (Changing host) 2016-10-15T17:41:40Z boomer joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:41:43Z boomer is now known as bitch 2016-10-15T17:41:57Z Glitchy: Only thing I can find is https://github.com/yehohanan7/cl-kafka but thats publisher only 2016-10-15T17:42:50Z razzy89 quit (Quit: razzy89) 2016-10-15T17:44:37Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-15T17:44:50Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T17:45:30Z loke`: Glitchy: You could always use ABCL so you can natively integrate with the Java client. 2016-10-15T17:45:55Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-15T17:46:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:46:20Z loke`: Otherwise, I'd recommend you using CFFI to build a CL wrapper around it. I've done it a few times for other libraries, and it's easy. 2016-10-15T17:46:45Z loke`: Mine are cl-rabbit: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-rabbit 2016-10-15T17:46:58Z loke`: and, also cl-gss: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-rabbit 2016-10-15T17:46:59Z loke`: OOps 2016-10-15T17:47:02Z loke`: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-gss 2016-10-15T17:48:05Z Glitchy: CFFI? 2016-10-15T17:48:17Z Glitchy: Shouldn't be hard to be fair, kafka is a very simple interface 2016-10-15T17:48:20Z Glitchy: At least in Java 2016-10-15T17:49:29Z loke`: I know nothing about it. I just saw that the web page explained that the C binding has been used to build libraries for many langaues. I think Haskell was one of those. 2016-10-15T17:49:47Z loke`: If you make something useful, put it on QL. 2016-10-15T17:54:46Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T17:55:25Z Glitchy: loke`: I'm not very familiar with rabbitmq, maybe that can do what I want. I just want a queue with topics, where I can have subscribers which work on messages. 2016-10-15T17:55:28Z Glitchy: Does it work that way? 2016-10-15T17:55:39Z loke`: Glitchy: It does. 2016-10-15T17:55:53Z Glitchy: loke`: Can one message be processed by many subscribers? 2016-10-15T17:55:59Z loke`: Of course. 2016-10-15T17:56:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T17:56:24Z loke`: https://www.rabbitmq.com/getstarted.html 2016-10-15T17:56:52Z loke`: There is an example.lisp or something like that in the cl-rabbit distribution. 2016-10-15T17:57:32Z loke`: There is also another client librari: cl-bunny. Both works. Mine in based on the C API, while cl-bunny is newer and natively implements the protocol. 2016-10-15T17:57:52Z loke`: I know cl-rabbit works great since it's been used in production for a few years now. 2016-10-15T17:57:59Z loke`: cl-bunny supposedly also works well. 2016-10-15T17:58:18Z Glitchy: Will look at both, thanks. 2016-10-15T17:58:26Z loke`: Have fun. 2016-10-15T17:58:34Z Glitchy: I'm not working at firehose scale so Kafka probably isnt necessary on this project 2016-10-15T17:58:36Z loke`: I'm going to sleep now. GFetting quite late. 2016-10-15T17:58:40Z Glitchy: Sleep well 2016-10-15T17:58:49Z loke`: RabbitMQ has fantastic performance. 2016-10-15T17:59:45Z loke`: And once you understand the concepts (which are actually super simple, but the documenation tends to make it seem more complex than it is), using it is extremely efificuent. 2016-10-15T17:59:50Z Glitchy: loke`: Really? I've never used it. I've used 0MQ and Kafka. 2016-10-15T17:59:54Z loke`: Only takes a few function calls to use. 2016-10-15T17:59:56Z Glitchy: But mostly with Java. 2016-10-15T18:00:14Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:00:18Z Glitchy: Kafka is much better performance than 0MQ (we used it on a firehose scale app where 0MQ was really struggling). 2016-10-15T18:00:22Z loke`: My chat application was using zeromq initially, but it was a huge hassle. Moved to RabbitMQ and never looked back. It's worked extrmely well. 2016-10-15T18:00:28Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-15T18:02:51Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:02:59Z loke`: I also bult an async version on top of cl-rabbit. cl-bunny might have something similar, but I haven't checked. It allows you to work more easil with multiple channels, and with callbacks instead of having a single function waiiting for incoming messages: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-rabbit-async 2016-10-15T18:03:23Z Glitchy: Does that work a bit like a stream? 2016-10-15T18:03:31Z Glitchy: Process each message and call a callback? 2016-10-15T18:04:06Z loke`: Well, the async stuff simply calls a callback function when a new message has arrived. 2016-10-15T18:04:24Z Glitchy: Is a channel the same as a topic in pub/sub? 2016-10-15T18:04:55Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T18:05:11Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:05:13Z loke`: So that you don't have to create your own handler threads and synchronously wait for incoming messages. Doing so requires you to create a thread per channel, while with cl-rabbit-async you'll have one thread per block of channels (usually 10) 2016-10-15T18:05:37Z loke`: It only really matters when you have over a few hundred listeners. 2016-10-15T18:06:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:06:12Z Glitchy: loke`: Thanks for your help 2016-10-15T18:08:14Z loke`: No problems. Let me know if you need hints. I'm heading to sleep now. 2016-10-15T18:08:19Z loke`: 02:00 already :-) 2016-10-15T18:08:49Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:09:18Z Th30n_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:10:26Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:12:30Z hel-io quit 2016-10-15T18:12:44Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-15T18:15:00Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T18:16:03Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:17:25Z Th30n_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-15T18:18:57Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:23:06Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:24:45Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T18:26:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:30:28Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:34:10Z alphor joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:34:22Z flacko quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2016-10-15T18:34:38Z alphor: anyone gone through buildyourownlisp.com ? 2016-10-15T18:34:46Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T18:36:00Z pseudonymous: alphor: nope, looked into it during a period where I wanted to try implementing a toy lisp 2016-10-15T18:36:04Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:38:20Z alphor: pseudonymous: did you do it without the guide? 2016-10-15T18:39:13Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:40:37Z _sjs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T18:41:35Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:41:43Z pseudonymous: alphor: implement a toy lisp ? No. I briefly followed Peter Norvig's 2-part series on implementing a toy lisp in Python, then I started writing a lexer & parser in Go to try and implement something larger. Even ordered "Lisp in small pieces" which teaches you how lisp interpreters can be implemented. But lost interest / work happened 2016-10-15T18:43:54Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-15T18:44:03Z fiveop joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:44:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-15T18:44:28Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-15T18:44:46Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T18:45:26Z pseudonymous: It seems like a lot of work and boils down to an academic exercise, mostly. There's also https://github.com/kanaka/mal which shows example toy implementations in various languages. I must admit I just lost interest. I started looking at Racket then which really is geared toward implementing (& composing programs of) small DSL languages. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-15T19:41:02Z ggole quit 2016-10-15T19:41:56Z Anselmo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-15T19:42:50Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T19:44:46Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T19:46:04Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T19:46:28Z Anselmo joined #lisp 2016-10-15T19:54:14Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-15T19:54:48Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T19:56:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T19:56:45Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T19:58:18Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-15T20:04:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T20:04:43Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:04:46Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T20:05:01Z lucasb_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-15T20:06:05Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:09:00Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T20:11:41Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:12:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:12:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-15T20:12:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:15:02Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T20:16:05Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:17:05Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-15T20:17:24Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-15T20:17:51Z doc_solitude quit (Quit: doc_solitude) 2016-10-15T20:17:54Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:19:05Z nullx002: hi 2016-10-15T20:19:46Z nullx002: i get error for this simple macro from peter siebel's book: https://gist.github.com/nullx002/e30469c0e6cb35f4001d6325ffe6e974 2016-10-15T20:19:58Z nullx002: error: ; The function COMMON-LISP-USER::RESULT is undefined. 2016-10-15T20:20:10Z Bike: do you have with-gensyms defined? 2016-10-15T20:20:37Z nullx002: am on emacs with cl mode repl.. sbcl 2016-10-15T20:20:47Z nullx002: yes 2016-10-15T20:21:24Z Bike: that error is exactly what you would see if it was not defined. haven't changed packages? (macro-function 'with-gensyms) returns something? 2016-10-15T20:21:44Z nullx002: sorry,, with-gensyms is not defined 2016-10-15T20:22:19Z Bike: there you go then. 2016-10-15T20:22:23Z nullx002: isn't that predefined? 2016-10-15T20:22:40Z nullx002: i am just copying code from book and modifiying it a bit 2016-10-15T20:22:40Z Bike: It's not. PCL gives a definition, I think. 2016-10-15T20:23:06Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:23:12Z nullx002: it isn't mentioned anywhere in the book... 2016-10-15T20:23:25Z nullx002: so what to do ? 2016-10-15T20:23:44Z Bike: From "Macros: Defining Your Own": "In this section you'll write a macro, with-gensyms" 2016-10-15T20:24:05Z varjagg: https://common-lisp.net/project/bdb/qbook/mycl-util/api/macro_005FMYCL-UTIL_003A_003AWITH-GENSYMS.html 2016-10-15T20:24:18Z nullx002: it is from here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-building-a-unit-test-framework.html 2016-10-15T20:24:25Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:24:31Z Bike: with-gensyms is defined in the previous chapter. 2016-10-15T20:24:53Z nullx002: ok so i jumped a bit... 2016-10-15T20:24:53Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T20:25:09Z nullx002: sorry,, for disturbing peace on this channel :D 2016-10-15T20:25:15Z Bike: no worries. 2016-10-15T20:26:05Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:27:22Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-15T20:28:29Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-15T20:28:49Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:30:01Z fiveop quit 2016-10-15T20:31:59Z nullx002: now code is working but output is bit different 2016-10-15T20:32:07Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:32:09Z nullx002: it gives me: 2016-10-15T20:32:11Z nullx002: pass ... (= (* 2 2) 4) 2016-10-15T20:32:11Z nullx002: pass ... (= (* 3 5) 15) 2016-10-15T20:32:11Z nullx002: NIL 2016-10-15T20:32:27Z nullx002: is should be T instead of NIL 2016-10-15T20:33:15Z nullx002: it is compiled not intepreted 2016-10-15T20:34:47Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T20:35:38Z Bike: shouldn't matter. 2016-10-15T20:35:52Z Bike: okay, so the problem is what results are actually being checked. 2016-10-15T20:36:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:36:07Z Bike: look at the macroexpansion of (check...) 2016-10-15T20:37:23Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-15T20:38:10Z nullx002: recompiling... just a min 2016-10-15T20:38:39Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:39:12Z nullx002: nope... for both FAIL and pass it gives NIL 2016-10-15T20:39:23Z Bike: yes. i'm giving you a hint as to why that is happening. 2016-10-15T20:39:36Z Bike: what does a check form macroexpand into? 2016-10-15T20:40:07Z nullx002: hum... 2016-10-15T20:40:15Z nullx002: more errors... 2016-10-15T20:40:36Z nullx002: just a min 2016-10-15T20:41:05Z nullx002: got it 2016-10-15T20:41:07Z nullx002: working 2016-10-15T20:41:21Z nullx002: a typo 2016-10-15T20:42:08Z nullx002: check form macroexpand into loop to check results, right? 2016-10-15T20:42:48Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T20:43:04Z Bike: well, no, the loop is just in the macroexpander. but that's not the point. try (macroexpand-1 '(check (= (+ 1 2) 3))) 2016-10-15T20:43:08Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:44:10Z nullx002: CL-USER> (macroexpand-1 '(check (= (+ 1 2) 3))) 2016-10-15T20:44:11Z nullx002: (COMBINE-RESULTS-7 2016-10-15T20:44:11Z nullx002: (REPORT-RESULT-7 (= (+ 1 2) 3) '(= (+ 1 2) 3))) 2016-10-15T20:44:13Z nullx002: T 2016-10-15T20:44:47Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T20:44:50Z Bike: right. so what result is actually being combined? what form is being checked for truth or falsity by combine-results? 2016-10-15T20:45:27Z nullx002: result form 2016-10-15T20:45:43Z nullx002: report-result 2016-10-15T20:45:54Z nullx002: in my code REPORT-RESULT-7 2016-10-15T20:46:05Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:47:03Z Bike: and what does report-result return? 2016-10-15T20:47:24Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T20:47:51Z nullx002: ; (COMBINE-RESULTS 2016-10-15T20:47:51Z nullx002: ; (REPORT-RESULT # '#) 2016-10-15T20:47:52Z nullx002: ; (REPORT-RESULT # '#)) 2016-10-15T20:48:11Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:48:11Z Bike: i mean. try it. (report-result t 't). what does it return. 2016-10-15T20:48:15Z nullx002: # v/s '# 2016-10-15T20:48:48Z nullx002: pass ... T 2016-10-15T20:48:48Z nullx002: T 2016-10-15T20:49:04Z Bike: not with the definition you gave it doesn't. 2016-10-15T20:49:27Z Bike: (report-result t 't) => pass ... T, NIL 2016-10-15T20:50:06Z nullx002: but REPL says pass ... T 2016-10-15T20:50:06Z nullx002: T 2016-10-15T20:50:48Z Bike: (not (report-result t 't)) is NIL? you changed the definition, so test should work now. 2016-10-15T20:51:08Z nullx002: yes... 2016-10-15T20:51:20Z nullx002: it gives pass ... T 2016-10-15T20:51:20Z nullx002: NIL 2016-10-15T20:51:33Z nullx002: for previous test... now i recompiled and it gives pass ... T 2016-10-15T20:51:33Z nullx002: T 2016-10-15T20:51:40Z Bike: well there you go then. 2016-10-15T20:52:35Z nullx002: had to add suffix to avoid confusion and saving code for chapters... may be help me with understand literate programming too... 2016-10-15T20:53:43Z nullx002: do you use emacs? 2016-10-15T20:53:57Z Bike: me? yes. 2016-10-15T20:54:27Z nullx002: org-mode? can this code run under babel for literate programming use? 2016-10-15T20:54:46Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T20:55:53Z nullx002: trying to prep some tuts for myself that can be useful to others too it that works... don't know about commonlisp... it works well with default emacs lisp... though i am new to emacs too... using it for 6 months only... so don't know.... 2016-10-15T20:56:03Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T20:56:40Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T21:01:13Z raydeejay: nullx002: yes, you can use babel for common lisp code too http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/ob-doc-lisp.html 2016-10-15T21:03:02Z nullx002: no i know that... but i have not done it before... what i want to ask it that does that work practically for few sample codes? do anyone have any experience about that? because i am new to both and what i am experiencing here can be avoided by many it literate code is available... 2016-10-15T21:03:30Z knobo: Is it possible to just change the initform of one slot on the class I inherit from? 2016-10-15T21:03:58Z nullx002: while i am going to go through entire code in peter's book why not just create .org file while doing so... others can edit sample code to their liking... 2016-10-15T21:04:41Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T21:04:47Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T21:04:48Z Bike: knobo: yeah, i'm pretty sure that's how it works with the slot definition. 2016-10-15T21:05:03Z Bike: like, defclass your-subclass, name that slot and put an :initform 2016-10-15T21:06:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:08:16Z erguven joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:10:12Z cpc26_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T21:10:27Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:10:52Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:14:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:14:46Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T21:16:03Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:18:33Z andrei-n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T21:19:14Z bluezone quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-15T21:22:20Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:22:33Z knobo: I was trying to give mito-auth's has-secure-password a default password, but it does not work. 2016-10-15T21:23:11Z knobo: So in general, it should work, but with this metaclass it does not work 2016-10-15T21:24:55Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T21:26:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:27:41Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-15T21:30:27Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-15T21:35:06Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T21:36:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-15T21:36:05Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:36:34Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T21:41:19Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:42:28Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-15T21:43:11Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-15T21:43:11Z Ven__ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:49:16Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:49:44Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:51:36Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-15T21:51:41Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-15T21:55:26Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-10-15T21:59:09Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-15T22:04:57Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-15T22:12:06Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-15T22:14:20Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-15T22:19:28Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-15T22:20:44Z mathi_aihtam quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T22:22:13Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T22:23:03Z scottj joined #lisp 2016-10-15T22:24:48Z pierpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-15T22:27:18Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-15T22:31:18Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-15T22:31:49Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2016-10-15T22:32:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-15T22:32:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-15T22:33:23Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-15T22:33:55Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-15T22:33:55Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-15T22:40:14Z Ven__ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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probably hardware implementation) 2016-10-16T08:44:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-16T08:54:38Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-16T09:05:20Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-16T09:07:41Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T09:14:06Z Bike quit (Quit: seple) 2016-10-16T09:14:27Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-16T09:15:48Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-16T09:28:58Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T09:32:26Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-16T09:33:39Z zeissoctopus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T09:34:04Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-16T09:35:40Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-16T09:37:39Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-16T09:40:01Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-16T09:40:48Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-16T09:43:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T09:46:14Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-16T10:06:02Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T10:06:28Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 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2016-10-16T12:10:34Z pipping: traitor! 2016-10-16T12:14:41Z jackdaniel: hm? 2016-10-16T12:16:56Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:20:13Z klltkr: Hehe 2016-10-16T12:26:14Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:27:01Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:27:24Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:27:36Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:27:46Z pseudonymous: :P 2016-10-16T12:28:57Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:31:25Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:35:53Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-16T12:37:35Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:41:53Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T12:48:23Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-16T12:48:40Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:51:41Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:53:25Z Paul1337 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:53:51Z Paul1337: Hello 2016-10-16T12:54:19Z Paul1337: lisp is structural or functional programmming language ? 2016-10-16T12:55:29Z Paul1337: hello ? 2016-10-16T12:56:25Z Paul1337: anyone here 2016-10-16T12:56:29Z klltkr: Yes 2016-10-16T12:56:43Z Paul1337: lisp is structural or functional programmming language ? 2016-10-16T12:56:44Z klltkr: What do you mean by structural? 2016-10-16T12:57:22Z klltkr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_programming ? 2016-10-16T12:57:34Z cpape`` is now known as cpape 2016-10-16T12:58:12Z Paul1337: Unix was designed in http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4399841/whats-the-difference-between-functional-structured-and-procedural-programming 2016-10-16T12:58:24Z klltkr: (Common) Lisp is multiparadigm 2016-10-16T12:58:38Z Paul1337: Unix was coded in assembly, its creator realized that, debugging a "spaghetti code" is a real pain in.... Its due to the misuse of GOTO statement at the assembly level, whch is a bad programming practice. So they created C, in the Structured paradigm, that has single-entry and single-exit associated with each block of code. 2016-10-16T12:58:57Z _death: unix was written to play space travel 2016-10-16T12:59:05Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-16T12:59:22Z klltkr: Okay, but that is not the opposite of functional 2016-10-16T12:59:44Z Paul1337: ok my origional question is if i am learning SICP then will it help to learn LISP? 2016-10-16T12:59:46Z klltkr: A functional language *is* a structural programming language 2016-10-16T13:00:03Z _death: Paul1337: yes 2016-10-16T13:00:50Z Paul1337: If i am python programmer and i am mad about ML and AI then why should i learn LISP ? can't i stay with python or should i must learn LISP? 2016-10-16T13:01:23Z _death: Paul1337: you can stay with python.. do what you want 2016-10-16T13:01:49Z Paul1337: which advantages will i get over python in LISP? 2016-10-16T13:02:00Z _death: Paul1337: that is for yourself to find out 2016-10-16T13:02:08Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:02:14Z araujo_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:02:20Z Paul1337: How much time it will take if i am coming from pYTHON background? 2016-10-16T13:03:03Z _death: depends on how long you postpone learning with trolling 2016-10-16T13:03:34Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:03:49Z klltkr: Lisp will give you profound enlightenment when you finally get it 2016-10-16T13:04:41Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:06:36Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-16T13:06:46Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:07:34Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:08:32Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:09:14Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:10:51Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:11:17Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:11:28Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:12:17Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:12:18Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:13:55Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:14:54Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:15:32Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:15:36Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:15:53Z pseudonymous: Paul1337: the principal thing with lisp (imho esp. non-scheme lisps, but that's a different matter) is that it becomes relatively simple to build your own language abstractions, should you need to. For example, Clojure (also a lisp) re-made all the concurrency bits from Go as a set of macros. And here https://github.com/m2ym/cl-annot is an example of someone who reimplemented the python decorator syntax because that's what *he* wanted. 2016-10-16T13:16:31Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:16:36Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:17:11Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:17:18Z solyd joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:17:23Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:17:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:17:27Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:17:31Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:18:17Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:19:07Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:20:04Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:20:25Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:21:37Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:22:31Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:24:03Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:24:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:27:12Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:27:21Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:28:40Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:29:41Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:31:13Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:32:13Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:32:21Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:32:25Z khisanth_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:32:44Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T13:33:58Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:35:19Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:36:11Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:36:20Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:37:45Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:38:41Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:40:05Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:41:00Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:42:28Z phoe: Lisp is basically one of the best build-your-favorite-programming-language kits around, if you look at it that way 2016-10-16T13:42:32Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:42:34Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-16T13:43:32Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:44:58Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:45:01Z zaquest joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:45:25Z pjb: Most programming languages are some kind of lego or meccano. Lisp is plasticine. 2016-10-16T13:45:32Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:45:47Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:45:56Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:47:38Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:47:41Z jackdaniel: no matter how much plasteline you add to it it still looks like a plasteline ;) 2016-10-16T13:47:56Z jackdaniel: plasticine° 2016-10-16T13:49:00Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:49:08Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:50:38Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:50:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:50:59Z _death: unless you do something unlispy, like loop/format/cgol/cl-annot/... :) 2016-10-16T13:51:34Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:52:59Z whiteline__ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:53:12Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:53:43Z jackdaniel: original quote had something with "ball of mud" instead ;-) 2016-10-16T13:54:09Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:54:31Z _death: yeah, I think that was more about something like CL vs. Scheme 2016-10-16T13:55:31Z whiteline_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-16T13:56:01Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:56:09Z _death: ah, APL vs. Lisp 2016-10-16T13:56:13Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:56:23Z daniel-s: Hi there. I'm reading this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2016-10-16T13:56:29Z daniel-s: What does "binding form" mean? 2016-10-16T13:56:38Z daniel-s: Is it the same thing as a block in other languages? 2016-10-16T13:57:00Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T13:57:05Z phoe: binding form, wellll. 2016-10-16T13:57:16Z phoe: binding is basically assigning values to variables. 2016-10-16T13:57:32Z phoe: daniel-s: what part exactly are you reading? 2016-10-16T13:57:42Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-16T13:57:43Z phoe: I'll be able to provide more help once I have the proper context. 2016-10-16T13:58:26Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T13:59:32Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:00:13Z moby joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:00:23Z daniel-s: phoe: "By the rules of lexical scoping, only code textually within the binding form can refer to a lexical variable." 2016-10-16T14:00:31Z phoe: Gotcha. 2016-10-16T14:01:06Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T14:01:10Z _death: it makes more sense to talk about a binding operator.. an operator that associates a name with a value.. LET for example is a binding operator. a form is then something like (let ((name1 value1) (name2 value2)) ).. the body then can reference these values using the names introduced by LET 2016-10-16T14:01:23Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:01:42Z techglider is now known as k4rtik 2016-10-16T14:02:03Z phoe: Basically - you cannot use lexical variables outside of their scope. 2016-10-16T14:02:09Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:02:40Z phoe: When you have (let (a b c d e) ...), the variables a,b,c,d,e are meaningless outside of the LET's body. 2016-10-16T14:03:30Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T14:03:42Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T14:05:49Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:05:54Z phoe: ;; sidenote - it's only a bad idea to (let (p q r s t u v) ...) 2016-10-16T14:07:02Z phoe: ;; unless your package doesn't import all of CL. 2016-10-16T14:07:21Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T14:08:29Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:09:18Z daniel-s: I think I got it. Thanks _death, phoe. 2016-10-16T14:09:51Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T14:10:28Z phoe: daniel-s: if you got any questions, we're here. 2016-10-16T14:10:43Z phoe: and #clnoobs is a specialized channel that might interest you, too. 2016-10-16T14:11:05Z phoe: do you have any programming experience with other languages? 2016-10-16T14:11:19Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:12:55Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:13:04Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:14:16Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-16T14:14:30Z Guest76840 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-16T14:14:46Z daniel-s: phoe: Python, I used it for my PhD project. I have written a few small things/tools in C, but not experience on a big project. 2016-10-16T14:15:12Z daniel-s: I am currently going through the lisp book and this one for Haskell http://learnyouahaskell.com/ at the same time. 2016-10-16T14:15:32Z Guest76840 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:15:38Z cpc26 quit 2016-10-16T14:15:38Z heurist`_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T14:16:03Z phoe: daniel-s: { int b = 1; { int a = 3; } a = a + 1; } 2016-10-16T14:16:07Z phoe: this bit in C won't compile. 2016-10-16T14:16:24Z phoe: (let ((b 1)) (let ((a 1))) (incf a)) 2016-10-16T14:16:32Z phoe: this bit in Lisp won't compile. 2016-10-16T14:18:18Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:18:46Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-16T14:18:57Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T14:19:08Z phoe: if you can understand the bit above in C, then you'll understand the bit below in Lisp. 2016-10-16T14:21:19Z daniel-s: Yeah, I get it. Thanks 2016-10-16T14:22:34Z heurist`_` joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:24:07Z heurist_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-16T14:26:16Z _death: a good treatment of scope and extent: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html#SECTION00700000000000000000 2016-10-16T14:27:40Z remi`bd: I found the first few chapters of the SICP to be a good explanation too 2016-10-16T14:27:45Z remi`bd: (about scope) 2016-10-16T14:30:14Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-16T14:30:27Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:32:01Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:36:26Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T14:36:53Z heurist__ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:39:54Z heurist`_` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T14:44:03Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:45:17Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-16T14:45:36Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:49:28Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T14:49:44Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:51:52Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:53:09Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T14:53:26Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:54:38Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-16T14:56:56Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T14:57:20Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T14:57:36Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T14:57:47Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-16T14:59:38Z Paul1337 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T15:05:30Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T15:05:48Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:09:13Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T15:09:20Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:09:31Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:12:20Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T15:15:01Z daniel-s: It seems to me reading now about closures, that they're similar to a singleton object with just one method. 2016-10-16T15:16:39Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:17:07Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T15:17:09Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-16T15:17:53Z whiteline__ is now known as whiteline 2016-10-16T15:19:25Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T15:19:42Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:23:07Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T15:23:22Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:26:41Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:27:44Z phoe: daniel-s: basically, yep. 2016-10-16T15:27:55Z phoe: Scheme has no object system of its own - it uses closures instead. 2016-10-16T15:28:14Z _death: closures are the poor man's objects, and vice versa 2016-10-16T15:28:21Z pjb: Well closures are equivalent to objects, so you can say that closures are scheme object system. 2016-10-16T15:28:36Z pjb: I prefer to have closure than only objects… 2016-10-16T15:29:00Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:29:16Z phoe: (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x) x)) 2016-10-16T15:29:17Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T15:29:25Z pjb: Closures are the proof John McCarthy was human. :-) 2016-10-16T15:29:30Z phoe: Boom, you have a simple stamp. 2016-10-16T15:29:35Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:30:42Z pjb: Imagine JMC had gotten closure right in 1959. Boom! LISP 1.0 would have been perfect from day 1, and JMC would be a God. Scheme wouldn't exist. 2016-10-16T15:31:18Z QwertyDragon quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-16T15:31:23Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:31:28Z phoe: pjb: you mean that all that takes to get rid of Scheme is a single time machine? 2016-10-16T15:31:32Z pjb: //UNIVERSES 2016-10-16T15:31:32Z phoe: sounds radical 2016-10-16T15:31:36Z pjb: :-) 2016-10-16T15:32:37Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:32:39Z pjb: I mean: 2016-10-16T15:32:39Z pjb: //JOBLIB DD DSN=UNIVERSE,DISP=(OLD,KEEP) 2016-10-16T15:32:58Z pjb: http://www.stokely.com/lighter.side/jcl.html 2016-10-16T15:33:29Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T15:33:48Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:34:14Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T15:35:03Z pjb: Of course lisp existed before jcl. 2016-10-16T15:37:12Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T15:37:28Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:37:54Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:46:03Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:46:10Z gentoo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:46:41Z vibs29 quit (Quit: bye) 2016-10-16T15:47:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:53:16Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-16T15:56:49Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:57:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T15:57:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:59:09Z heurist joined #lisp 2016-10-16T15:59:21Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:02:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:02:04Z jokleinn1 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:02:16Z heurist__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:03:06Z jokleinn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:04:10Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:05:03Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T16:07:33Z edwlan_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:09:51Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:10:54Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:14:55Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-16T16:18:21Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:22:29Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:25:42Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:27:24Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:28:13Z jokleinn1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-16T16:28:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:32:32Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:32:48Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:33:47Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:36:57Z daniel-s quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-16T16:37:00Z daniel-s_ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:37:20Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:37:33Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:41:52Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:43:49Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:44:34Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-16T16:44:38Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:46:11Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-16T16:46:19Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-16T16:46:42Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-16T16:50:29Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2016-10-16T19:06:14Z _death: a language is raw material that you build new languages out of 2016-10-16T19:06:43Z pierpa: I think somewhere I read a rationale, but I forgot it. 2016-10-16T19:06:46Z raydeejay: s/is/ought to be/ 2016-10-16T19:07:04Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T19:07:20Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T19:08:23Z Atarian quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-16T19:08:48Z _death: pierpa: I guess because these symbols do not name anything, they are just indicators for loop 2016-10-16T19:08:51Z Atarian joined #lisp 2016-10-16T19:08:58Z pierpa: hmmm 2016-10-16T19:09:32Z raydeejay: pierpa: does it help to think of LOOP as a DSL? 2016-10-16T19:10:03Z pierpa: not really :) 2016-10-16T19:10:15Z pipping: raydeejay: you misspelled Lysergic acid diethylamide 2016-10-16T19:10:35Z phoe: i never realized LOOP was a Damn Small Linux 2016-10-16T19:10:40Z raydeejay: you misspelt ingested 2016-10-16T19:13:14Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T19:13:32Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T19:14:09Z pseudonymous: pierpa: phoe & _death had a good point. If loop is not to your liking - it's no worse than there's another way, one of which might be to write a few looping constructs yourself. For example, Racket loops like this https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/for.html - there's not much stopping you from implementing a few loop functions, calling it a day :) 2016-10-16T19:14:38Z _death: pseudonymous: I always refer to this: http://adeht.org/usenet-gems/one-function.txt 2016-10-16T19:14:40Z pierpa: I didn't say I don't like LOOP, and I know Racket. 2016-10-16T19:15:53Z pierpa: (actually I use a lot bot CL LOOP and Racket) 2016-10-16T19:17:22Z _death: http://paste.lisp.org/display/328697#2 some code I wrote today 2016-10-16T19:17:26Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T19:17:43Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T19:19:19Z _death: would it really matter if I changed a mapcar to loop or whatever? nope 2016-10-16T19:20:35Z pseudonymous: _death: that one-function post was insightful, thanks 2016-10-16T19:21:08Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T19:21:23Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T19:21:24Z _death: it was so insightful that Pitman & Norvig mentioned that snippet in their Lisp style guide 2016-10-16T19:22:34Z pierpa: well, Riesbeck is not a random passerby... 2016-10-16T19:23:18Z pseudonymous: Sounds like an interesting read. Mostly starting out from a clojure-perspective, myself. So it's nice to get a more traditional Lisp perspective 2016-10-16T19:23:42Z _death: they also went farther with that example, but the principle remains the same 2016-10-16T19:24:19Z _death: pseudonymous: http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps 2016-10-16T19:25:03Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-16T19:25:49Z pseudonymous: Yea, just found it ;) But now I need to find a way to render a postscript file ... :( Oh well. 2016-10-16T19:26:31Z phoe: pseudonymous: ps2pdf 2016-10-16T19:26:34Z pierpa: there are services on the web which convert ps files, if you don't want to install ghost 2016-10-16T19:26:45Z phoe: pseudonymous: http://www.iiia.csic.es/~puyol/TAPIA/transpas/Norvig-luv-slides.pdf 2016-10-16T19:27:04Z pseudonymous: phoe: hey, thanks! :) 2016-10-16T19:27:09Z phoe: if you don't mind not having it straight from the tap 2016-10-16T19:27:19Z _death: I use zathura.. it has a postscript plugin 2016-10-16T19:27:42Z phoe: a lot of document readers nowadays support .ps files as well as they do .pdf 2016-10-16T19:27:52Z phoe: at least my default gnome reader supports these out of the box 2016-10-16T19:29:36Z pseudonymous: Well I run a rather minimalistic source-based Linux distro (Crux Linux). So I sometimes end up having to write the ports files myself - which is fine, but things like evince comes with a *lot* of baggage, so right now I'm relying on firefox for PDF's. but that's a different matter. 2016-10-16T19:29:52Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-16T19:31:13Z phoe: pseudonymous: wow, crux looks basically like a slackware clone when it comes to idea 2016-10-16T19:31:18Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T19:31:33Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T19:32:42Z pseudonymous: phoe: well, a bit, yea. Being an old Slacker, that's part of what appealed to me. But it's a tad closer to the FreeBSD-way of doing things than slack in the sense of its single rc.conf file, ports tree and such. It's really cool and highly recommended :) 2016-10-16T19:34:00Z Glitchy: Hi all, I have a string and I want to check if it's in a list, case-insensitively. What's the best way to do that? 2016-10-16T19:34:22Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T19:34:40Z phoe: (find string list :test #'string-equals) 2016-10-16T19:35:03Z phoe: basically, #'STRING= is case-sensitive while #'STRING-EQUALS is not. 2016-10-16T19:35:36Z raydeejay: STRING-EQUAL 2016-10-16T19:36:07Z _death: note that it wouldn't work well if the list contains nonstrings 2016-10-16T19:36:15Z _death: (member string list :test 'equalp) 2016-10-16T19:36:29Z Glitchy: List only contains strings 2016-10-16T19:36:32Z Glitchy: Thanks 2016-10-16T19:36:35Z _death: (actually I prefer #'equalp here) 2016-10-16T19:36:42Z Glitchy: Does that work with 'position'? 2016-10-16T19:36:55Z Glitchy: I want to return the form from the list, with correct capitalization, after 2016-10-16T19:36:56Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T19:37:19Z _death: yes, all these functions take a :test keyword 2016-10-16T19:37:41Z Glitchy: Thanks 2016-10-16T19:38:48Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-16T19:39:31Z phoe: raydeejay: woop 2016-10-16T19:39:33Z phoe: thanks for fixing me 2016-10-16T19:40:16Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-16T19:40:22Z raydeejay: never miss an opportunity to correct someone on the Internet :D 2016-10-16T19:40:31Z Glitchy: (let ((canonical-name-position (position name names :test #'equalp))) (if (= nil canonical-name-position) nil (nth canonical-name-position names))) 2016-10-16T19:40:33Z Glitchy: Like that? 2016-10-16T19:41:03Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2016-10-16T19:41:46Z _death: no, that wouldn't work because = is for number comparisons.. and you can use FIND and it will return the string from the list 2016-10-16T19:42:28Z pierpa: (and canonical-name-position (nth canonical-name-position ...)) 2016-10-16T19:43:03Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-16T19:43:15Z Glitchy: _death: Oh, that's much better 2016-10-16T19:43:49Z pierpa: (= nil x) wont't work. = is for numbers. You mean (eq nil x). And anyway then use (null x) 2016-10-16T19:49:07Z superancetre quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T19:49:19Z raydeejay: (when canonical-name-position ...) 2016-10-16T19:54:46Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-16T19:56:35Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-16T19:59:57Z gacepa joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:03:04Z doc_solitude quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T20:04:40Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-16T20:14:31Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-16T20:15:45Z schjetne: Anyone here use Sly instead of SLIME? 2016-10-16T20:19:25Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:21:27Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T20:23:07Z Cymew: Not heard it talked about much 2016-10-16T20:25:09Z Bike: i think there are a few people though. 2016-10-16T20:25:47Z Walex joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:29:35Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:31:50Z dddddd quit (Quit: Hasta otra..) 2016-10-16T20:31:53Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:36:05Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T20:37:02Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:37:06Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:40:16Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-16T20:41:19Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:44:13Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-16T20:44:53Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T20:47:51Z msmith` joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:51:13Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:51:42Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:54:52Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T20:55:10Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:56:00Z Th30n quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-16T20:56:25Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-16T20:57:37Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-16T20:59:27Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:04:05Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:04:09Z DougNYC joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:05:51Z jealousmonk: Hi! I have this little function for counting differents elements in a list by passing trough each element then updating it respective value in a table. The function works, but if a run it again the values are build on top of the previous. How this is possible be if the variable is not global? 2016-10-16T21:06:02Z jealousmonk: (example '(a b b c c c) => ((A 1) (B 2) (C 3)) 2016-10-16T21:06:08Z jealousmonk: and if i run it again: 2016-10-16T21:06:15Z jealousmonk: (example '(a b b c c c) => ((A 2) (B 4) (C 6)) 2016-10-16T21:07:52Z _death: you shouldn't modify literals.. (copy-tree '((a 0) ...)) 2016-10-16T21:08:46Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T21:10:04Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-16T21:10:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:11:45Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:12:53Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T21:12:55Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-16T21:13:16Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:18:55Z jealousmonk: _death: sorry, i'm a beginner and don't get it. what should i do then? 2016-10-16T21:19:23Z Bike: (let ((table (copy-tree '((a 0) (b 0) (c 0))))) ...) 2016-10-16T21:21:08Z _death: jealousmonk: when you use QUOTE, the list returned is a literal. in order to avoid creating a literal, you can use LIST. my solution to you was to copy the literal into a fresh new object, one that you can modify safely. 2016-10-16T21:23:57Z klltkr[CLE] quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-16T21:23:57Z tiago_ is now known as tiago 2016-10-16T21:23:57Z tiago quit (Changing host) 2016-10-16T21:23:57Z tiago joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:24:28Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-16T21:26:08Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:26:23Z jealousmonk: _death: it works, thanks 2016-10-16T21:26:33Z jealousmonk: Bike: thank you too 2016-10-16T21:28:35Z jealousmonk: (let ((table (list (list 'a 0) (list 'b 0) (list 'c 0)))) works 2016-10-16T21:28:53Z jealousmonk: but (let ((table (list '(a 0) '(b 0) '(c 0)))) doesn't 2016-10-16T21:29:20Z Bike: right, because then the incf is modifying the literals 2016-10-16T21:29:35Z Bike: the value of '(a 0) is shared between calls, more or less 2016-10-16T21:30:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T21:30:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:33:02Z jealousmonk: hmm, i think i'm getting... 2016-10-16T21:33:07Z jealousmonk: thank you guys 2016-10-16T21:35:08Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:35:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-16T21:35:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:37:22Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T21:37:27Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T21:37:44Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:39:32Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-16T21:40:33Z pierpa: that's the first thing a future revision of the language should fix. 2016-10-16T21:40:47Z pierpa: (an hypotethical future revision...) 2016-10-16T21:41:06Z pierpa: (a hypothetical future revision...) 2016-10-16T21:41:09Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T21:41:24Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T21:41:29Z Bike: what, having constants? 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But usually, implementations who protect against this mistake put constants in read-only memory. The Hypothetical Future Revision could make this mandatory 2016-10-16T22:46:32Z phoe: pierpa: Hypothetical Future Revision 2016-10-16T22:46:34Z phoe: sigh 2016-10-16T22:46:41Z pierpa: HFR for short :) 2016-10-16T22:46:42Z phoe: I'll need to find time and continue working on CLUS 2016-10-16T22:46:55Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T22:46:56Z phoe: and only then I'll consider myself competent enough to try and think about that 2016-10-16T22:47:04Z pierpa: CLUS? never heard about this 2016-10-16T22:47:41Z phoe: that project that I started the other day 2016-10-16T22:47:49Z phoe: and decided to abandon it for half a year after some initial work 2016-10-16T22:47:58Z pierpa: ach 2016-10-16T22:48:00Z phoe: mostly because of employment 2016-10-16T22:48:02Z phoe: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php 2016-10-16T22:48:41Z pierpa: aha! I see. 2016-10-16T22:49:02Z phoe: the moment I/we have this, it could become a basis for a HFR. 2016-10-16T22:49:13Z phoe: but there's still a long road to that point. 2016-10-16T22:50:28Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T22:52:12Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-16T22:53:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-16T22:53:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-16T22:53:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-16T22:55:36Z fiduche quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-16T22:55:40Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-16T22:55:40Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-16T23:00:49Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-16T23:03:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-16T23:03:42Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-16T23:07:31Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-16T23:07:47Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-16T23:08:31Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-16T23:13:28Z malcolm joined #lisp 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compiling pathnames to a fasl - is it sufficient to save the (namestring pathname) or do I need to write all of the components? 2016-10-17T02:54:55Z trn quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-17T02:56:07Z Xach: drmeister: the namestring should suffice to reproduce all the components on your implementation. 2016-10-17T02:56:39Z drmeister: Ok - thank you. 2016-10-17T02:58:51Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-17T03:02:44Z rjeli joined #lisp 2016-10-17T03:03:51Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T03:05:21Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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My google-fu only found how to _define_ reader macros. 2016-10-17T04:11:37Z davidrsmorris: wait, I think my REPL was just over-eagerly pretty-printing 2016-10-17T04:13:14Z Bike: yeah, (quote (quote (1 2 3))) will evaluate to (quote (1 2 3)), but that will usually print as '(1 2 3) 2016-10-17T04:17:10Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T04:19:41Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-10-17T04:24:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-17T04:24:53Z davidrsmorris quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-17T04:25:40Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-17T04:28:15Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T04:29:19Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T04:33:42Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-17T04:35:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T04:36:11Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-17T04:46:20Z jabbawakki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-17T04:47:27Z Evanescence quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-17T04:48:38Z _sjs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T04:49:31Z davidrsmorris joined #lisp 2016-10-17T04:53:52Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-17T04:59:44Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-17T05:00:13Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-17T05:02:13Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-17T05:03:31Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:03:59Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-17T05:04:12Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-17T05:04:13Z loke: Hello beach! 2016-10-17T05:04:42Z loke is trying to use StumpWM. To be efficient I really need my new keyboard that I'm designing (roughly 200 keys) 2016-10-17T05:07:30Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:08:48Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T05:14:19Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:17:47Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:19:22Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:19:25Z edgar-rft: loke: you're designing something like this, but for computers? 2016-10-17T05:22:34Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-17T05:22:35Z loke: edgar-rft: Yeah, sort of :-) 2016-10-17T05:24:54Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:26:23Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:26:47Z Jameser quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-17T05:28:10Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:35:43Z Evanescence joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:35:52Z trinitr0n: /wi 14 2016-10-17T05:37:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:39:00Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-17T05:39:28Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-17T05:40:48Z Evanescence quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T05:40:53Z Jameser quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T05:41:38Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:44:02Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:44:18Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-10-17T05:48:54Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:54:40Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:55:37Z Evanescence joined #lisp 2016-10-17T05:59:18Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-17T06:04:56Z man213 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T06:05:28Z Evanescence quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-17T06:05:56Z Evanescence joined #lisp 2016-10-17T06:06:05Z davidrsmorris quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-17T06:06:17Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T06:07:03Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-17T06:07:16Z freedom01 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T06:09:07Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-17T06:14:51Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-17T06:16:59Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-17T06:17:58Z Evanescence quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T06:19:56Z Cymew never became friends with StumpWM when he tried it 2016-10-17T06:23:29Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T06:24:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T06:28:40Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Do you need a proper configuration maybe? 2016-10-17T08:44:36Z Cymew: Could be 2016-10-17T08:44:48Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-10-17T08:47:08Z flip214_: loke: and the difference from 105 to 200 keys are all modifier keys, I assume ;) 2016-10-17T08:47:23Z loke``: It's a combination. 2016-10-17T08:47:48Z loke``: Some of them are for more symbols (like arrows and maths symbols) 2016-10-17T08:48:22Z loke``: Then several keys to control the windows in stumpwm 2016-10-17T08:49:55Z flip214_: do X11 and the other layers have any provision for more than 255 hardware keys? from some layer on they can be composed to multi-byte sequences, but deep down? 2016-10-17T08:50:26Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T08:50:36Z RichardPaulBck[m: Cymew: I've written a very simple how to for using StumpWM, but it's in German. The config (in Lisp) although is in English: https://free-your-pc.com/de/blog/Produktivität-steigern-durch-Tiling-Window-Manager#Produktivität-steigern-durch-Tiling-Window-Manager 2016-10-17T08:51:13Z loke``: RichardPaulBck[m: Thanks! 2016-10-17T08:51:19Z flip214_: RichardPaulBck[m: 502 - free-your-pc.com @ maintenance 2016-10-17T08:51:20Z flip214_: We are currently not available! 2016-10-17T08:51:24Z flip214_: But on the bright side: it's not your fault! 2016-10-17T08:51:37Z loke``: Auf der anderen Seite: es ist nicht Ihre Schuld! :-) 2016-10-17T08:51:50Z flip214_: Always look on the bright side of faults 2016-10-17T08:52:16Z flip214_: well, at least the important data is still visible... 2016-10-17T08:52:17Z flip214_: Zeiten für die direkte Paketabgabe 2016-10-17T08:52:17Z flip214_: Mo. - Sa.: 8:00 - 18:00 2016-10-17T08:52:18Z loke``: The german version dosn't say "bright side". "anderen Seite" means "other page" 2016-10-17T08:52:49Z loke``: At least that's what I think. My german is very rusty. 2016-10-17T08:53:14Z flip214_: loke: I know. that was a play on monty python. you're right. 2016-10-17T08:53:24Z loke``: By the way, is there a simple way to enable frame selection using the mouse? I'd like to be able to click on a frame to select it. 2016-10-17T08:53:35Z flip214_: well, at least they've got some kind of humor.. Webseite erhältlich als GPLv3 2016-10-17T08:53:42Z flip214_: points to "http://localhost:8080/shop" 2016-10-17T08:54:03Z flip214_: oh, AGB is localhost too 2016-10-17T08:54:10Z flip214_: and warranty... 2016-10-17T08:54:34Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T08:55:23Z z3r0_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T08:55:29Z RichardPaulBck[m: RichardPaulBck[m: 502 - free-your-pc.com @ maintenance 2016-10-17T08:55:30Z RichardPaulBck[m: Wow, that wasn't supposed to happen. Seems like caveman just can't handle so many users at once :D 2016-10-17T08:55:51Z loke`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T08:56:12Z RichardPaulBck[m: loke: It doesn't translate 1:1 from English to German. 2016-10-17T08:57:34Z loke`` joined #lisp 2016-10-17T08:57:52Z RichardPaulBck[m: flip214_: Thanks for the info! 2016-10-17T08:58:09Z flip214_: you're welcome.... if you call them, ask about localhost ;) 2016-10-17T09:07:14Z flip214_: RichardPaulBck[m: blog is up again 2016-10-17T09:07:42Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-17T09:07:58Z flip214_: oh, is your site anyway. 2016-10-17T09:12:05Z arduo joined #lisp 2016-10-17T09:17:06Z ak5 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T09:17:35Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T09:17:44Z z3r0_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-17T09:19:32Z hebroon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T09:20:01Z Cymew: RichardPaulBck[m: Thanks for sharing. I'll take a peek. 2016-10-17T09:26:02Z gacepa joined #lisp 2016-10-17T09:29:54Z hebroon joined #lisp 2016-10-17T09:39:22Z beaky: hello 2016-10-17T09:39:39Z beaky: what do the labels in DISASSEMBLE output liek 'L0' or 'L1' mean 2016-10-17T09:41:03Z phoe: I think they're labels that JMP/JUMP/GO can go to. 2016-10-17T09:41:09Z phoe: Do you know TAGBODY? 2016-10-17T09:41:45Z phoe: beaky: http://paste.lisp.org/display/328789 2016-10-17T09:41:49Z phoe: Can you imagine what this code does? 2016-10-17T09:43:00Z beaky: yes its like the famous BASIC hello world loop 2016-10-17T09:44:12Z tfb quit 2016-10-17T09:44:26Z phoe: Precisely. 2016-10-17T09:44:28Z raydeejay: 10 GOTO 10 2016-10-17T09:44:30Z phoe: See the 10 20 30 tags? 2016-10-17T09:44:39Z phoe: They're labels, tags, whatever you call them. 2016-10-17T09:44:40Z raydeejay: o/ 2016-10-17T09:44:43Z tfb_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T09:44:45Z phoe: They're points you can GO to. 2016-10-17T09:45:22Z phoe: beaky: http://paste.lisp.org/display/328789#1 2016-10-17T09:45:23Z tfb_ is now known as tfb 2016-10-17T09:45:53Z tfb is now known as Guest63189 2016-10-17T09:46:02Z Guest63189 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-17T09:46:16Z phoe: At the address 50, the argument for PRINT is being prepared. 2016-10-17T09:46:22Z phoe: At 60, PRINT is called. 2016-10-17T09:46:37Z phoe: Same for SLEEP, which ends up being optimized into SB-UNIX:NANOSLEEP. 2016-10-17T09:46:42Z tfb_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T09:47:09Z phoe: Wait - it's not 60 for PRINT, it's 72, where the CALL is. 2016-10-17T09:47:32Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-17T09:47:33Z phoe: And the GO instruction is 9D - a simple JMP L0 which sends you back to the beginning. 2016-10-17T09:48:45Z phoe: raydeejay: that's what (lambda () (loop)) gets optimized into. 2016-10-17T09:49:29Z tfb_ is now known as tfeb 2016-10-17T09:49:35Z phoe: > (disassemble (lambda () (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0) (debug 0))) (loop))) 2016-10-17T09:49:42Z phoe: ; A0: L0: EBFE JMP L0 2016-10-17T09:49:56Z raydeejay: /o\ 2016-10-17T09:50:08Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-17T09:50:15Z phoe: (tagbody L0 (go L0)) 2016-10-17T09:50:22Z tfeb is now known as tfb 2016-10-17T09:51:21Z phoe: I add the OPTIMIZE there so the machine code is as short and readable as possible; otherwise it'd get messed up with type checks and other safety measures. 2016-10-17T09:52:11Z phoe: but yeah. raydeejay: you might want to (macroexpand-1 '(loop)) 2016-10-17T09:52:18Z phoe: just for the fun of it 2016-10-17T09:52:31Z nullx002: hi all 2016-10-17T09:52:35Z phoe: nullx002: hey 2016-10-17T09:52:43Z nullx002: (minusp #C(-19 -29)) gives me error 2016-10-17T09:52:53Z phoe: clhs minusp 2016-10-17T09:52:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_minusp.htm 2016-10-17T09:53:03Z phoe: Syntax: 2016-10-17T09:53:04Z nullx002: Argument X is not a REAL: #C(-19 -29) 2016-10-17T09:53:14Z nullx002: it works with zerop 2016-10-17T09:53:17Z phoe: minusp real => generalized-boolean 2016-10-17T09:53:23Z nullx002: CL-USER> (zerop #C(-19 -29)) 2016-10-17T09:53:23Z nullx002: NIL 2016-10-17T09:53:30Z phoe: clhs zerop 2016-10-17T09:53:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_zerop.htm 2016-10-17T09:53:37Z phoe: ZEROP accepts a NUMBER. 2016-10-17T09:53:41Z phoe: MINUSP accepts a REAL. 2016-10-17T09:54:00Z Grue`: how do you expect minusp to work for complex numbers? 2016-10-17T09:54:08Z nullx002: Some other handy functions are ZEROP, MINUSP, and PLUSP, which test whether a 2016-10-17T09:54:08Z nullx002: single real number is equal to, less than, or greater than zero. 2016-10-17T09:54:16Z phoe: yes - that's for real numbers. 2016-10-17T09:54:24Z nullx002: it says real number 2016-10-17T09:54:30Z phoe: yep, exactly. 2016-10-17T09:54:32Z nullx002: phoe: by real you mean rational ? 2016-10-17T09:54:37Z phoe: no, I mean real. 2016-10-17T09:54:42Z nullx002: or floating? 2016-10-17T09:54:42Z phoe: #C(-19 -29) is NOT a real number. 2016-10-17T09:54:45Z phoe: It's a complex number. 2016-10-17T09:54:45Z roscoe_tw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T09:54:53Z nullx002: than why it works with zerop ? 2016-10-17T09:55:03Z roscoe_tw joined #lisp 2016-10-17T09:55:04Z nullx002: compiler should give error for that too... 2016-10-17T09:55:06Z phoe: because ZEROP accepts any number. 2016-10-17T09:55:16Z nullx002: no 2016-10-17T09:55:20Z phoe: yes. 2016-10-17T09:55:23Z Grue`: because it's possible to define zerop for complex numbers 2016-10-17T09:55:35Z raydeejay: it's like asking why format doesn't take a number as format string 2016-10-17T09:55:35Z nullx002: zerop accepts excatly what minusp and plusp accepts 2016-10-17T09:55:38Z TMA: nullx002: because it tests for equality with zero. equality is defined for all numbers 2016-10-17T09:55:39Z phoe: no. 2016-10-17T09:55:45Z phoe: clhs zerop 2016-10-17T09:55:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_zerop.htm 2016-10-17T09:55:48Z phoe: "Returns true if number is zero (integer, float, or complex); otherwise, returns false." 2016-10-17T09:55:58Z nullx002: CL-USER> (zerop #C(-19 -29)) 2016-10-17T09:55:59Z nullx002: NIL 2016-10-17T09:56:08Z phoe: ZEROP explicitly accepts integer, float or complex numbers. 2016-10-17T09:56:34Z phoe: MINUSP does not accept complex numbers. 2016-10-17T09:56:40Z nullx002: CL-USER> (zerop #c(0 0)) 2016-10-17T09:56:40Z nullx002: T 2016-10-17T09:56:51Z nullx002: ok 2016-10-17T09:57:14Z phoe: On the other hand, complex numbers can't be positive or negative. 2016-10-17T09:57:25Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-17T09:57:30Z phoe: They can have positive/negative real part, or positive/negative imaginary part. 2016-10-17T09:57:50Z nullx002: phoe: complex numbers can be positive or negative 2016-10-17T09:57:54Z phoe: But a number as a whole cannot be positive or negative - these are terms that are used only towards real numbers. 2016-10-17T09:57:54Z nullx002: CL-USER> (minusp #C(-19 0)) 2016-10-17T09:57:55Z nullx002: T 2016-10-17T09:58:06Z phoe: Yes, but that's the special case when they're real numbers. :P 2016-10-17T09:58:17Z nullx002: Yes 2016-10-17T09:58:21Z phoe: And Lisp knows it and automatically converts #C(-19 0) to -19. 2016-10-17T09:58:30Z jamtho joined #lisp 2016-10-17T09:58:37Z nullx002: so this is not explained in book ... 2016-10-17T09:58:40Z nullx002: thanks people 2016-10-17T09:58:45Z Grue`: nullx002: complex numbers cannot be positive or negative. are you sure you know about complex numbers? 2016-10-17T09:59:01Z phoe: nullx002: look things up the specification when in doubt. 2016-10-17T09:59:19Z nullx002: is there any official manual or quick reference for sbcl 2016-10-17T09:59:27Z phoe: nullx002: there is one for Common Lisp. 2016-10-17T09:59:40Z phoe: Type "clhs function-name" to have the matching one brought up. 2016-10-17T09:59:43Z nullx002: i use bert burgemeister's quick reference 2016-10-17T09:59:48Z phoe: clhs zerop 2016-10-17T09:59:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_zerop.htm 2016-10-17T09:59:50Z phoe: Like this. 2016-10-17T10:00:00Z nullx002: at REPL ? 2016-10-17T10:00:07Z phoe: On IRC. :P 2016-10-17T10:00:12Z nullx002: ok 2016-10-17T10:00:14Z nullx002: clhs zerop 2016-10-17T10:00:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_zerop.htm 2016-10-17T10:00:16Z phoe: Or you might just google. 2016-10-17T10:00:20Z nullx002: yes... 2016-10-17T10:00:21Z phoe: "clhs zerop" works on Google for me, too. 2016-10-17T10:00:31Z Grue`: at repl it's C-c C-d h 2016-10-17T10:00:32Z nullx002: so no offical manual or anything for sbcl ? 2016-10-17T10:00:49Z phoe: There is a SBCL manual, but it only covers implementation-specific matters. 2016-10-17T10:00:52Z Grue`: there is at sbcl.sourceforge.net 2016-10-17T10:01:05Z nullx002: ok 2016-10-17T10:01:06Z phoe: You might want to read it, but it doesn't cover the language itself. 2016-10-17T10:01:09Z phoe: CLHS is for that. 2016-10-17T10:02:45Z nullx002: Grue`: can't complex numbers be negative ?? 2016-10-17T10:02:49Z nullx002: really?? 2016-10-17T10:03:03Z phoe: nullx002: https://www.quora.com/Is-the-complex-number-+1-1i-positive-or-negative 2016-10-17T10:03:09Z phoe: a quick google tells me this 2016-10-17T10:03:24Z nullx002: no i mean in math not in programming languages? 2016-10-17T10:03:32Z phoe: I mean math. 2016-10-17T10:03:40Z phoe: Not programming languages. 2016-10-17T10:03:53Z Grue`: is i=sqrt(-1) positive or negative? 2016-10-17T10:04:05Z Grue`: the question makes no sense on a complex plane 2016-10-17T10:04:24Z nullx002: so on complex plane all numbers are negative... 2016-10-17T10:04:30Z phoe: no no no 2016-10-17T10:04:35Z phoe: they're not positive 2016-10-17T10:04:39Z phoe: they're not negative 2016-10-17T10:05:04Z phoe: only real numbers can be described as positive/negative. 2016-10-17T10:05:24Z phoe: complex numbers are not real, except for the cases where their imaginary part is 0. 2016-10-17T10:05:38Z phoe: so, generally speaking - you can't describe any complex number as positive or negative. 2016-10-17T10:05:57Z nullx002: so in a sense real numbers are subset of complex numbers.. right? 2016-10-17T10:06:01Z phoe: correct. 2016-10-17T10:06:20Z nullx002: so real numbers also cna't be positive or negative... 2016-10-17T10:06:23Z phoe: A set of #C(x 0) where x is real - that's the real number set. 2016-10-17T10:06:24Z phoe: :P 2016-10-17T10:06:27Z phoe: pfft 2016-10-17T10:06:36Z phoe: yes, they can. 2016-10-17T10:06:49Z nullx002: VAAN diagrams would disagree :D 2016-10-17T10:06:51Z jamtho quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-10-17T10:07:02Z phoe: that's because you have a natural order in these. 2016-10-17T10:07:06Z nullx002: if they are a total subset.... 2016-10-17T10:07:16Z raydeejay: the problem is that you're not reading properly 2016-10-17T10:07:27Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:07:32Z raydeejay: complex numbers aren't necessarily etiher positive or negative 2016-10-17T10:07:42Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T10:07:50Z raydeejay: they CAN be (if their imaginary part is zero), but they don't HAVETO 2016-10-17T10:07:53Z nullx002: raydeejay: so you want to say that so called 'real numbers' are not subset of so called 'complex numebers' ... right? 2016-10-17T10:08:06Z phoe: well 2016-10-17T10:08:06Z raydeejay: read again 2016-10-17T10:08:10Z nullx002: i have... 2016-10-17T10:08:25Z phoe: a number can be only negative or positive if it lies exactly on the real axis of the Argand diagram. 2016-10-17T10:08:26Z nullx002: i understand that part i spent 10 years at a university :D 2016-10-17T10:08:40Z phoe: if it's elsewhere - pop, it can't be positive or negative anymore. 2016-10-17T10:08:45Z raydeejay: I spent zero years at a university, but it seems obvious to me 2016-10-17T10:08:52Z phoe: so there you have it. 2016-10-17T10:08:53Z nullx002: no it is not 2016-10-17T10:08:58Z raydeejay: the concepts even have proper names related to "real life" 2016-10-17T10:09:12Z _death: "Unless both wakeup and re-acquisition do not occur within the given time, returns NIL without re-acquiring the mutex." 2016-10-17T10:09:14Z _death: double negatives are fun 2016-10-17T10:09:16Z nullx002: real numebrs <<== subset of complex numbers 2016-10-17T10:09:20Z raydeejay: a complex number without _imaginary_ part is a _real_ 2016-10-17T10:09:44Z phoe: yes 2016-10-17T10:09:44Z nullx002: complex numbers cna't have polarity... why real numbers have? 2016-10-17T10:09:52Z phoe: because we have an order defined for them. 2016-10-17T10:10:00Z phoe: any number below zero is negative. 2016-10-17T10:10:05Z phoe: any number above zero is positive. 2016-10-17T10:10:15Z nullx002: so why can't we define order for complex numbers... 2016-10-17T10:10:16Z phoe: if you feel like it, you can define an order for complex numbers, define your zero in it, and boom. 2016-10-17T10:10:22Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:10:23Z phoe: you'll have positive and negative complex numbers. 2016-10-17T10:10:26Z nullx002: i know there are total 5 kind of complex numbers.... 2016-10-17T10:10:38Z phoe: you can - it's just more or less pointless in the complex plane. 2016-10-17T10:10:56Z phoe: as in - there are little practical uses for a "general" ordering of complex numbers. 2016-10-17T10:11:22Z nullx002: it has lot of use in designing programming languages i hope... 2016-10-17T10:11:32Z nullx002: coz they need 'order' 2016-10-17T10:11:37Z phoe: no, why? 2016-10-17T10:11:52Z phoe: the only possible case I can think of is an absolute value of a complex number. 2016-10-17T10:11:52Z nullx002: they don't understand vague ideas like real and complex numbers... for them numbers are numbers... 2016-10-17T10:12:04Z phoe: programming languages don't even understand numbers 2016-10-17T10:12:19Z nullx002: atleast they compute it... 2016-10-17T10:12:28Z phoe: well, yep. 2016-10-17T10:12:28Z nullx002: and for computation they need 'order' 2016-10-17T10:12:36Z phoe: yep 2016-10-17T10:12:44Z phoe: but wait. 2016-10-17T10:12:49Z phoe: for computing what, exactly? 2016-10-17T10:12:57Z nullx002: so if compex numbers dont' have order how do they understand and compute it? 2016-10-17T10:13:00Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:13:18Z phoe: because each complex number is a tuple of two values, each of which has order. 2016-10-17T10:13:27Z nullx002: yes... 2016-10-17T10:13:29Z phoe: #C(2 3) is 2 + 3i. 2016-10-17T10:13:32Z phoe: 2 is ordered, 3 is ordered. 2016-10-17T10:13:37Z Grue`: nullx002: if you look up a wikipedia article on complex numbers, there are formulas for all sort of computations. none of them involve "order" 2016-10-17T10:13:37Z phoe: Good enough for computers. 2016-10-17T10:13:48Z salva00 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T10:13:53Z nullx002: again set theory says if part A and part B both has order; both subsets; parent set has order 2016-10-17T10:14:02Z phoe: oh right. 2016-10-17T10:14:05Z phoe: real numbers have order. 2016-10-17T10:14:14Z phoe: complex numbers without real numbers don't have order. 2016-10-17T10:14:20Z phoe: therefore parent set doesn't have order. 2016-10-17T10:14:41Z phoe: but it's not as easy as that. 2016-10-17T10:14:41Z nullx002: no it is not like that... 2016-10-17T10:14:51Z phoe: you can compare oranges by size, you can compare humans by age. 2016-10-17T10:14:56Z nullx002: i think their is third thing that bring disorder here... 2016-10-17T10:15:02Z Grue`: nullx002: I suggest doing that (reading the article) instead of saying ridiculous things that make no sense 2016-10-17T10:15:05Z phoe: a set made by combining subsets of oranges and humans has... what sort of order? 2016-10-17T10:15:37Z nullx002: yes 2016-10-17T10:15:48Z nullx002: exactly... there is third thing... 2016-10-17T10:15:50Z phoe: so nope, if part A and part B each has an order, it doesn't mean that A sum B has an order. 2016-10-17T10:15:55Z nullx002: in parent set 2016-10-17T10:16:13Z phoe: unless you create an order that can take both oranges and humans as arguments. weight, for example. 2016-10-17T10:16:14Z nullx002: it has to... 2016-10-17T10:16:20Z phoe: you can weigh a human, you can weigh an orange. 2016-10-17T10:16:24Z phoe: boom, you can order them all. 2016-10-17T10:16:29Z nullx002: yes... 2016-10-17T10:16:37Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:16:40Z phoe: so the task is - find an order that can take both real and complex non-real numbers as arguments. 2016-10-17T10:16:47Z phoe: simplifying - an order for all complex numbers. 2016-10-17T10:16:59Z phoe: the only useful order known so far is absolute value of a complex number. 2016-10-17T10:17:02Z nullx002: so for computation of complex numbers there must be an order... 2016-10-17T10:17:11Z raydeejay chuckles 2016-10-17T10:17:14Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-17T10:17:17Z phoe: for #C(x y) it's sqrt(x^2 + y^2). 2016-10-17T10:17:30Z phoe: nullx002: no, there doesn't have to be. 2016-10-17T10:17:44Z phoe: we're computing a lot of complex number stuff without an order for complex numbers. 2016-10-17T10:17:54Z phoe: well - I'm not telling the truth. 2016-10-17T10:18:01Z raydeejay: LIAR! 2016-10-17T10:18:04Z phoe: we use a lot of absolute values, which DO set an order in there. 2016-10-17T10:18:11Z nullx002: coz imaginary part if not entirely imaginary 2016-10-17T10:18:12Z phoe: but even in that order - there are no negative values. :P 2016-10-17T10:18:25Z phoe: an absolute value of a number is either zero if the number is zero, or is positive if that number is nonzero. 2016-10-17T10:18:48Z phoe: you can't have negative absolute value the same way you can't have a negative distance between two points. 2016-10-17T10:19:09Z phoe: nullx002: I didn't understand your last sentence. 2016-10-17T10:19:25Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:19:26Z nullx002: *is 2016-10-17T10:19:36Z phoe: I still don't get it. :P 2016-10-17T10:20:01Z nullx002: how we cauluate sqrt (-1) by hand while dealing with complex numbers? 2016-10-17T10:20:36Z phoe: nullx002: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number#Square_root 2016-10-17T10:20:51Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:20:59Z nullx002: no .. as we did in schools... by hand with pencil and paper... 2016-10-17T10:21:22Z nullx002: adding/multiplying complex numbers 2016-10-17T10:21:22Z phoe: you don't do it with pencil and paper when you try to square-root numbers that are not positive reals. 2016-10-17T10:21:36Z phoe: unless you used a method that I don't know of. 2016-10-17T10:22:01Z nullx002: it is converted to (" i ") right? 2016-10-17T10:22:13Z nullx002: for computational convinence 2016-10-17T10:22:20Z phoe: not really 2016-10-17T10:22:26Z phoe: sqrt(-1) can be i or -i. 2016-10-17T10:23:21Z nullx002: no it can be i only 2016-10-17T10:23:28Z phoe: not really. 2016-10-17T10:23:33Z nullx002: -i if imaginary part is 'negative' 2016-10-17T10:23:34Z phoe: (i)^2 = -1 2016-10-17T10:23:39Z phoe: (-i)^2 = -1 2016-10-17T10:23:45Z phoe: so both are square roots of -1. 2016-10-17T10:23:59Z nullx002: in that sense yes.. 2016-10-17T10:24:36Z phoe: the basic idea is 2016-10-17T10:24:47Z phoe: -1 = (a + bi)^2 2016-10-17T10:24:55Z salva00 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:24:57Z phoe: solve that, find the values of a and b. 2016-10-17T10:25:00Z phoe: then you'll have your roots. 2016-10-17T10:25:40Z nullx002: yes... 2016-10-17T10:25:44Z phoe: also: the number on the left can be any number, real, imaginary or complex. 2016-10-17T10:25:54Z phoe: that's a very general algebraic method for finding roots of any number. 2016-10-17T10:26:29Z nullx002: so how computers/programming languages calcualte that/ 2016-10-17T10:26:32Z nullx002: ? 2016-10-17T10:26:40Z phoe: well 2016-10-17T10:26:46Z phoe: they can compute quadratic equations 2016-10-17T10:26:49Z phoe: which is exactly what we have 2016-10-17T10:26:51Z nullx002: without bringing anykind of computational order?? 2016-10-17T10:26:59Z phoe: -1 = (a + bi)^2 2016-10-17T10:27:16Z phoe: -1 = a^2 +2abi - b^2 2016-10-17T10:27:42Z phoe: -1 = a^2 - b^2 && 0 = 2abi 2016-10-17T10:27:59Z phoe: we have two equations here - we separate the one into two by migrating all real numbers to one equation and all imaginary numbers to the other. 2016-10-17T10:28:16Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T10:28:49Z phoe: a^2 = b^2 - 1 2016-10-17T10:29:19Z nullx002: is this the underlying math that assembler's use to convert/compile code? 2016-10-17T10:29:28Z phoe: not really 2016-10-17T10:29:28Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-17T10:29:32Z phoe: that's just basic algebra 2016-10-17T10:29:46Z phoe: though CPUs and assemblers do make use of basic algebra. 2016-10-17T10:29:56Z phoe: I have to run for RL now - see you later. 2016-10-17T10:30:12Z nullx002: ok, thanks for the explanations 2016-10-17T10:30:21Z nullx002: see you 2016-10-17T10:30:34Z phoe: (Hell, guys, I do have the patience. Explaining basics of complex numbers on #lisp for ~25 minutes.) 2016-10-17T10:31:05Z nullx002: (good for you) 2016-10-17T10:31:26Z nullx002: one more question... 2016-10-17T10:31:35Z nullx002: cna they be odd or even? 2016-10-17T10:31:55Z nullx002: can complex numbers be odd/even? 2016-10-17T10:32:11Z flip214_: nullx002: well, I guess that 3+j0 would be seen as odd. 2016-10-17T10:32:19Z flip214_: but most of the time the question makes no sense... 2016-10-17T10:32:29Z flip214_: is 1/4 or 0.561 odd or even? 2016-10-17T10:32:38Z nullx002: no i think they can't be odd/even in same sense they can't be positive or negative... 2016-10-17T10:32:49Z nullx002: that is just a real number... special case of complex numebrs... 2016-10-17T10:32:51Z flip214_: "odd" or "even" is defined on integers; other number classes don't match these attributes any more. 2016-10-17T10:32:53Z phoe: only integers can be odd/even 2016-10-17T10:32:54Z nullx002: though i may be wrong 2016-10-17T10:33:00Z Grue`: nullx002: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_integer 2016-10-17T10:33:00Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:33:23Z Grue`: basically, yes 2016-10-17T10:34:13Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T10:34:22Z scymtym: _death: does http://paste.lisp.org/display/328797 look better? 2016-10-17T10:36:34Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:37:52Z loke`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T10:38:34Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:38:45Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-17T10:38:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T10:39:48Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T10:42:09Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:45:11Z cromachina quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-17T10:47:21Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:48:30Z _death: scymtym: yes 2016-10-17T10:48:36Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-17T10:49:21Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-10-17T10:54:29Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-17T10:58:31Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-17T11:04:08Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T11:06:19Z salv0 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T11:09:54Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-17T11:11:01Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-10-17T11:13:05Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-17T11:13:15Z scymtym: _death: pushed 2016-10-17T11:14:45Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T11:15:29Z zshlyg joined #lisp 2016-10-17T11:16:49Z zshlyg: Hi! What was the sbcl function that gave you the "sap-address" of an array (ie, c-pointer to first element of the vector)? 2016-10-17T11:18:07Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-17T11:20:00Z Xach: zshlyg: I think it is vector-sap. 2016-10-17T11:20:09Z Xach checks 2016-10-17T11:25:05Z _death: scymtym: thanks :) 2016-10-17T11:26:07Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-17T11:26:12Z daniel-s quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T11:26:29Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-17T11:27:13Z zshlyg: Xach: Thanks! vector-sap it is. And if the type-header is there I could shave it off manually. 2016-10-17T11:28:20Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T11:29:14Z solyd joined #lisp 2016-10-17T11:31:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-17T11:35:03Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-17T11:36:10Z gacepa quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-17T11:39:10Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-17T11:41:16Z kivish joined #lisp 2016-10-17T11:42:07Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-17T11:43:21Z kivish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T11:46:12Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-17T11:46:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T11:48:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:00:54Z Guest76840 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-17T12:07:05Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:13:42Z lucasb_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:14:29Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T12:15:07Z beaky: should i use plists, or is it bad design 2016-10-17T12:15:19Z beaky: since they seem easy and convenient like clojure maps 2016-10-17T12:16:11Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:19:56Z H4ns: beaky: you should not use them if you normally need more than 7 or so elements in each of the plists. 2016-10-17T12:20:05Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T12:20:20Z H4ns: beaky: they're very good for short dictionaries. 2016-10-17T12:20:21Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-17T12:21:34Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:22:14Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-17T12:22:54Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-17T12:23:51Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:29:13Z Evanescence quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T12:31:57Z beaky: i like how theres literal syntax for them and DESTRUCTURING-BIND 2016-10-17T12:32:25Z beaky: and that you can extract them out of &KEY args 2016-10-17T12:34:08Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-17T12:35:59Z josteink joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:37:48Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:37:49Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:40:09Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T12:40:12Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-17T12:41:48Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-17T12:43:02Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:43:45Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:45:30Z Evanescence joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:47:48Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T12:48:48Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T12:50:21Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:50:55Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:51:41Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:51:51Z ovenpasta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T12:52:45Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-17T12:53:48Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T12:54:33Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-17T12:55:02Z rumbler31 quit 2016-10-17T12:57:21Z freedom01 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T12:58:16Z lnostdal quit (Quit: lnostdal) 2016-10-17T12:58:25Z beaky: btw what does the * after a name convention mean in lisp? e.g. LET vs. LET*? does it generally mean "X* accomplishes like X, but differently in an important yet possibly desirable way" 2016-10-17T12:58:36Z beaky: or is it like ' in scheme 2016-10-17T12:58:47Z beaky: haskell* 2016-10-17T12:59:07Z beaky: (or maths) 2016-10-17T12:59:27Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:01:12Z djh: In a let* you can have variable definitions that refer to earlier variable definitions 2016-10-17T13:01:18Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:01:25Z djh: ie (let* ((x 1) (y (* 2 x)))) 2016-10-17T13:01:36Z beaky: yes i find myself reaching for let* alot more for that reason 2016-10-17T13:01:54Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:01:56Z beaky: (tho i reach for let first when i can) 2016-10-17T13:02:13Z djh: Likewise, less typing :) 2016-10-17T13:06:52Z Evanescence quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T13:07:51Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:08:44Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:12:18Z freehck joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:13:56Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:14:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T13:17:28Z novavis joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:19:23Z novavis quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-17T13:19:27Z confundus joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:19:47Z novavis joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:20:41Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:26:55Z heurist`_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:27:25Z novavis quit (Quit: novavis) 2016-10-17T13:29:03Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T13:29:17Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-17T13:29:57Z novavis joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:31:52Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:33:33Z let42 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:35:09Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-17T13:37:03Z M-moredhel quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T13:37:47Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:38:02Z confundus left #lisp 2016-10-17T13:38:02Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:39:48Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:40:07Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:43:42Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:44:54Z _death: to me let* usually signals that I need to write it better 2016-10-17T13:49:36Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T13:49:47Z Evanescence joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:49:55Z let42: ls 2016-10-17T13:53:05Z Evanescence quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-17T13:54:48Z let42 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T13:55:46Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-17T13:59:18Z drdo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-17T13:59:52Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:03:29Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:05:57Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:06:16Z ramky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-17T14:07:27Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:09:04Z let42 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:12:35Z flip214_: beaky: yeah, suffix means "like X, but not identical". see also the "let+" library, DO vs. DO*, etc. 2016-10-17T14:15:45Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-10-17T14:16:16Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-17T14:17:42Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-10-17T14:19:12Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:19:21Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-17T14:21:25Z let42 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T14:22:01Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-17T14:26:13Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T14:29:09Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-17T14:30:01Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:30:28Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T14:30:48Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-17T14:32:38Z RichardPaulBck[m: _death: Why? 2016-10-17T14:32:53Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:32:58Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-17T14:34:08Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:35:15Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-17T14:35:37Z _death: RichardPaulBck: usually it means the function is doing too much and needs to be factored 2016-10-17T14:35:53Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T14:37:27Z RichardPaulBck[m: Ah, okay, thanks. 2016-10-17T14:37:31Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:39:38Z _death: RichardPaulBck[m: here's something I hacked yesterday/today (although the inotify stuff is from 2008..) so you can see the style: https://github.com/death/horae 2016-10-17T14:41:27Z _death: the declaim idea is cute, methinks 2016-10-17T14:42:25Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T14:42:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:43:31Z RichardPaulBck[m: Looks nice. 2016-10-17T14:43:51Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:43:55Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:46:19Z trueneu joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:46:41Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:47:01Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-17T14:53:07Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:53:11Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:53:40Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-17T14:57:44Z trn joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:00:11Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-10-17T15:01:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-17T15:04:25Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:05:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T15:06:20Z shrdlu68: In a usocket tcp socket of type '(unsigned-byte 8) do you just loop through the vector while writing each byte? 2016-10-17T15:06:44Z _death: you can also use write-sequence 2016-10-17T15:07:51Z shrdlu68: Ah, neat. 2016-10-17T15:09:36Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:11:15Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:11:20Z man213 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-17T15:12:16Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T15:12:42Z MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz 2016-10-17T15:14:01Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:14:10Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:17:34Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:21:00Z warweasle quit (Quit: stupid internet.) 2016-10-17T15:24:26Z beaky: is lisp context-free 2016-10-17T15:24:31Z beaky: conmmon lisp* 2016-10-17T15:25:16Z _death: no 2016-10-17T15:28:26Z phoe: do you mean as in grammar? 2016-10-17T15:28:30Z phoe: probably not 2016-10-17T15:29:19Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:30:33Z _death: most programming languages are context-sensitive, but CL is context-sensitive to the extreme.. reading anything depends on the current readtable, for example 2016-10-17T15:31:35Z freedom01 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-17T15:32:06Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:32:32Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T15:33:46Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:34:07Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:34:18Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-17T15:34:18Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:36:29Z phoe: not reading anything also has its culprits, _death: reading an empty string might fire condition handler associated with end-of-line which can do arbitrary stuff 2016-10-17T15:36:45Z phoe: so failing to read anything makes you go oh woop 2016-10-17T15:37:46Z lemoinem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T15:37:54Z phoe: and depending on the package you're in, 'read might mean different things 2016-10-17T15:38:17Z phoe: so you'll need to use cl:read and hope the reader will grab the proper symbol for you 2016-10-17T15:38:21Z phoe: woop, lisp is so fun 2016-10-17T15:38:24Z phoe runs off for classes 2016-10-17T15:41:06Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-17T15:41:31Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:42:05Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:42:56Z cods joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:43:12Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T15:46:35Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-17T15:48:46Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-17T15:49:11Z sjl__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T15:49:42Z gendl: Hi, I see several Common Lisp bindings for Stripe, does anyone know if any are defacto at this point? It seems none has made it into Quicklisp yet: 2016-10-17T15:50:01Z gendl: https://github.com/antifuchs/cl-stripe 2016-10-17T15:50:01Z gendl: https://github.com/TBRSS/cl-stripe-client 2016-10-17T15:50:01Z gendl: https://github.com/deadtrickster/stripe-cl 2016-10-17T15:53:10Z splittist: gendl: you could ask antifuchs, since the works (worked?) for stripe. He should feel morally obliged to give a good answer... (: 2016-10-17T15:53:23Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T15:53:32Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T15:54:03Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:01:15Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:03:39Z daniel-s quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-17T16:03:51Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:04:16Z heurist`_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:04:33Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:11:05Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:13:22Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:14:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:14:25Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-17T16:15:55Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:17:45Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:19:49Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:20:03Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:23:21Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:25:17Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:28:47Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:31:06Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:32:06Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:33:27Z phoe: I just realized that Common Lisp is missing a factorial function so students have something to begin their journey with Lisp with 2016-10-17T16:37:21Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:37:29Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:37:54Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:38:35Z trueneu quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-17T16:38:47Z Bike: or because it's a math function that isn't required by anything in the standard library and is difficult to implement well 2016-10-17T16:39:44Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:40:12Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:40:22Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:40:22Z solyd joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:42:30Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:42:49Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:46:35Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:46:39Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:46:47Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:47:16Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:47:29Z whartung joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:48:31Z dwc: I would guess that any stats library has it 2016-10-17T16:48:56Z dwc: which is where it belongs, no? 2016-10-17T16:49:45Z Bike: or combinatorics. but lisp doesn't have a standard stdev function either. 2016-10-17T16:51:11Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-17T16:51:43Z solyd joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:51:49Z warweasle quit (Quit: Still dropping out.) 2016-10-17T16:52:54Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:53:22Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:55:00Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:55:10Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:56:39Z pierpa: it doesn't even have a square function! :) 2016-10-17T16:57:39Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2016-10-17T16:57:58Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:01:19Z raydeejay: (defun ² (x) (* x x)) 2016-10-17T17:09:17Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T17:13:16Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:16:11Z pierpa: I know how to define it :) 2016-10-17T17:17:38Z raydeejay: or I guess you could do (defun 🞐 ...) if you feel literal 2016-10-17T17:17:57Z Bike: "wow, i wonder what unicode character is failing to render there... oh" 2016-10-17T17:18:40Z raydeejay: M-x describe-char 2016-10-17T17:18:45Z raydeejay: BOLD WHITE SQUARE 2016-10-17T17:18:54Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:20:43Z pierpa: █ 2016-10-17T17:21:14Z pierpa: ██ 2016-10-17T17:21:43Z raydeejay: but that's FULL BLOCK... 2016-10-17T17:22:16Z pierpa: this is visual programming. It counts how it appears! 2016-10-17T17:23:04Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:23:08Z raydeejay accepts it reluctantly 2016-10-17T17:24:42Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:25:58Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-17T17:27:00Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-17T17:27:36Z nullx002: what is the exact value of euler 2016-10-17T17:27:46Z nullx002: e that sbcl uses? 2016-10-17T17:28:05Z Guest81323 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:28:11Z nullx002: CL-USER> (log 10 2.71828) 2016-10-17T17:28:12Z nullx002: 2.3025866 2016-10-17T17:28:12Z nullx002: CL-USER> (log 10) 2016-10-17T17:28:14Z nullx002: 2.3025851 2016-10-17T17:29:02Z nullx002: like for pi 2016-10-17T17:29:04Z nullx002: CL-USER> pi 2016-10-17T17:29:04Z Bike: probably (exp 1d0) 2016-10-17T17:29:04Z nullx002: 3.141592653589793d0 2016-10-17T17:30:27Z nullx002: CL-USER> (log 10 (exp 1d0)) 2016-10-17T17:30:27Z nullx002: 2.302585092994046d0 2016-10-17T17:30:28Z nullx002: CL-USER> (log 10) 2016-10-17T17:30:30Z nullx002: 2.3025851 2016-10-17T17:30:33Z Guest81323 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:30:40Z nullx002: why result is truncated for (log 10) 2016-10-17T17:30:52Z Bike: because it converts to single float. try (log 10d0) 2016-10-17T17:31:41Z nullx002: ok 2016-10-17T17:32:12Z nullx002: so it always truncates after 7th declimal place? 2016-10-17T17:32:49Z Bike: no. look up floating point arithmetic. 2016-10-17T17:32:58Z nullx002: ok 2016-10-17T17:33:39Z shrdlu68: Isn't there a corresponding equivalent of peek-char for binary streams? 2016-10-17T17:34:49Z shrdlu68: How do the likes of flexi-streams and usocket create in-memory binary IO streams? 2016-10-17T17:36:41Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:38:41Z oGMo: on one hand i'm surprised there's not peek-byte, on the other hand i've never had the need (while i've used peek-char a lot) 2016-10-17T17:38:52Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T17:40:40Z trueneu joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:41:12Z shrdlu68: Character streams have such a rich set of primitives, with-output-to-string and the like. Wish it were the same for binary streams. 2016-10-17T17:41:56Z shrdlu68: with-output-to-vector... 2016-10-17T17:42:11Z M-moredhel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:42:20Z oGMo: fast-io sortof has that but i checked and apparently no peek-byte .. i don't think it would be hard to add though 2016-10-17T17:42:28Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:42:43Z M-Illandan quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:42:43Z lugus35[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:43:04Z shrdlu68: with-input-from-vector, unread-byte... 2016-10-17T17:43:06Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:43:13Z oGMo: i was surprised i hadn't added it, but .. it's apparently never been an issue 2016-10-17T17:43:14Z nullx002: clhs asinh 2016-10-17T17:43:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sinh_.htm 2016-10-17T17:43:34Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:45:22Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-17T17:45:53Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:47:11Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:47:34Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:47:56Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T17:50:16Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:50:16Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:50:19Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:51:52Z eivarv quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-17T17:52:55Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-17T17:53:32Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:55:35Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:58:20Z gacepa joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:58:57Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:58:57Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-17T17:58:57Z M-Illandan joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:05:17Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:06:56Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-17T18:08:20Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:12:41Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-17T18:14:17Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T18:14:55Z ru151 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:16:09Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:16:41Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T18:18:16Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T18:24:17Z saturniid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-17T18:29:24Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:33:59Z salv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T18:34:08Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:35:39Z nullx002: what is the difference between floor and ffloor 2016-10-17T18:36:44Z nullx002: one returns intiger while another float 2016-10-17T18:37:02Z davidrsmorris joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:37:15Z nullx002: what could be the practical use of ffloor ? 2016-10-17T18:39:18Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:40:09Z _death: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node130.html#SECTION001660000000000000000 2016-10-17T18:40:21Z _death: "In practice, however, ffloor may be implemented much more efficiently." 2016-10-17T18:42:54Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-17T18:43:41Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T18:44:21Z nullx002: _death: that explained exactly what clhs says without much elobration 2016-10-17T18:44:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:44:30Z saturniid joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:46:10Z ru151 left #lisp 2016-10-17T18:46:56Z _death: did you notice the sentence I picked out 2016-10-17T18:48:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:48:46Z nullx002: yes, i mean how it is implemented? 2016-10-17T18:49:02Z nullx002: or more importantly where it is needed... 2016-10-17T18:49:02Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T18:49:09Z _death: to find out how something is implemented, it's a good idea to look at the source code of an implementation 2016-10-17T18:49:14Z nullx002: where real part may not work and we need float only.. 2016-10-17T18:49:47Z nullx002: no, i mean just a generic example... 2016-10-17T18:50:17Z nullx002: like temperature... or something... where only float can work... 2016-10-17T18:53:37Z mordocai: nullx002: Pretty much any time that you are going to get a floor of something then use that result with another float for any reason. 2016-10-17T18:57:22Z nullx002: mordocai: so as a return of function that interacts with another function that outputs float... something like that... right? 2016-10-17T18:57:42Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T18:57:51Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-17T18:59:13Z mordocai: nullx002: Yeah. Basically, you probably don't care except for performance reasons. Since you should be profiling in order to determine what to fix for performance, you probably only need to worry about it when you are seeing the coerce to float taking up time. 2016-10-17T18:59:45Z davidrsmorris quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-17T19:03:45Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:03:49Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:03:53Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:04:06Z earl-ducaine__ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:04:15Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:07:10Z mattrepl joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:10:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:11:38Z abbe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T19:11:48Z abbe joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:11:57Z |3b| quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T19:12:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-17T19:12:41Z |3b|` joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:15:16Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:15:26Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:15:35Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-10-17T19:16:35Z gendl: Hi, I'm trying to include swank in a runtime application which doesn't have a compiler. 2016-10-17T19:16:47Z gendl: Trying to build just the precompiled .fasl files into the runtime image, 2016-10-17T19:17:15Z gendl: i am part the way there, in the build script I am doing: 2016-10-17T19:17:26Z gendl: (load ".../swank-loader.lisp") 2016-10-17T19:17:35Z gendl: (funcall (read-from-string "swank-loader:init")) 2016-10-17T19:17:57Z saturniid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-17T19:18:13Z gendl: Then, when the runtime starts up, I call (swank:create-server :port ...) 2016-10-17T19:18:34Z gendl: but when I try to connect to it from my local emacs, the runtime throws an error: 2016-10-17T19:19:19Z gendl: Error: Can't locate module: swank-io-package::swank-trace-dialog 2016-10-17T19:19:38Z Guest81323 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T19:19:38Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T19:19:57Z gendl: Is that swank-io-package::swank-trace-dialog something which is normally loaded on-demand? 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-17T22:22:45Z jasom: deliver-asd-op doesn't appear to preserve system dependencies, is that a bug? 2016-10-17T22:23:58Z gentoo_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-17T22:24:23Z gentoo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T22:24:24Z gentoo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-17T22:24:48Z gentoo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T22:24:49Z gentoo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-17T22:25:13Z gentoo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T22:25:14Z gentoo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-17T22:25:27Z jasom: hmm, it looks like there's code that is trying to do it, but it seems to end up nil for me with what I've tried so far. 2016-10-17T22:25:40Z gentoo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T22:25:41Z gentoo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-17T22:26:02Z antonv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-17T22:26:05Z gentoo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T22:26:06Z gentoo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-17T22:26:16Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-17T22:26:51Z hhdave_ quit (Quit: hhdave_) 2016-10-17T22:38:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-17T22:40:54Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-17T22:45:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-17T22:49:58Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-17T22:50:12Z jasom: looks to be, and I found a workaround that I'm not sure is correct; will followup on mailing list 2016-10-17T22:55:49Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-10-17T22:56:43Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-17T22:58:38Z beaky: damn i love lquery 2016-10-17T22:59:07Z kkv joined #lisp 2016-10-17T22:59:09Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:00:59Z anunnaki quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-17T23:01:37Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-17T23:01:45Z mattrepl quit (Quit: mattrepl) 2016-10-17T23:03:16Z roscoe_t` joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:04:52Z roscoe_tw quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T23:04:56Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:05:17Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:05:21Z NeverDie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-17T23:08:00Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:11:18Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-17T23:11:35Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-17T23:15:34Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:23:31Z myfyb joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:25:38Z myfyb: Is there a portable library for automatically calling functions set by user? Like sbcl's *exit-hooks*. 2016-10-17T23:26:18Z jasom: myfyb: when do you want to call them? 2016-10-17T23:26:57Z myfyb: jason: when exit the lisp process 2016-10-17T23:29:39Z jasom: myfyb: there does not appear to be, but something like that might work well in UIOP if all implementations can manage it. 2016-10-17T23:31:05Z jasom: myfyb: I don't know if unwind-protect will catch most ways of exiting the program on most implementations, but that's how I usually manage it 2016-10-17T23:31:13Z jasom: clhs unwind-protect 2016-10-17T23:31:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_unwind.htm 2016-10-17T23:31:43Z jasom: myfyb: usually I care about it happening within a specific dynamic scope more than I care about "when exiting" 2016-10-17T23:31:59Z myfyb: Thank you. I'll have a try. 2016-10-17T23:33:18Z Guest81323 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-17T23:34:06Z Guest81323 joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:37:31Z myfyb: jasom: thanks a lot. unwind-protect works in sbcl. (unwind-protect (exit) (print 1234)) just like in (push #'(lambda () (print 1111)) *exit-hooks). i will try on ccl and abcl. I want this feature mainly to write back in-memory database to disk if lisp accidentally exit. 2016-10-17T23:39:03Z mattrepl joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:42:17Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-17T23:43:32Z jasom: myfyb: that will work for pure lisp code; obviously if you e.g. manually invoke exit() from C code it may not; it all depends on how smart the lisp runtimes are about that. 2016-10-17T23:43:39Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:45:02Z jasom: here's an interesting discovery: the ASDF bundle operations order source files differently from load-op so insufficiently specified .asd files may fail on them 2016-10-17T23:45:15Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-17T23:45:36Z emma is now known as em 2016-10-17T23:45:41Z jasom: One example: https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-hash-util/blob/master/cl-hash-util.asd 2016-10-17T23:47:10Z safe joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:53:28Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-17T23:56:59Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-18T00:02:58Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T00:07:49Z PuercoPop: jasom: what happens in that case? It assumes there are no dependencies and if tried to load them in parallel it fails or it choses an order from the component name or something? 2016-10-18T00:07:56Z PuercoPop: *something random? 2016-10-18T00:08:29Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T00:16:32Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-18T00:21:19Z ekinmur quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-18T00:22:30Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T00:22:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T00:24:00Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T00:24:51Z myfyb left #lisp 2016-10-18T00:27:02Z NeverDie_ quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-18T00:40:25Z Guest81323 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-18T00:45:48Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-10-18T00:46:06Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-18T00:48:11Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-10-18T00:48:46Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T00:52:08Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T00:52:21Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 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You *can* if you want. 2016-10-18T04:13:16Z Bike: i don't even know how those work in hir. 2016-10-18T04:13:40Z beach: It is just a control arc from inside one nested function to an instruction in an outer function. 2016-10-18T04:14:16Z Bike: oh, well that ties into inference on nested functions in general 2016-10-18T04:14:20Z beach: There is an instruction UNWIND before that arc. 2016-10-18T04:14:39Z beach: It does, but we might want to do something simple for now. 2016-10-18T04:14:51Z beach: Like consider each nested function separately. 2016-10-18T04:15:10Z Bike: right now it doesn't do anything. very simple. 2016-10-18T04:15:19Z beach: Right. 2016-10-18T04:15:25Z beach: ... and just give up when there is a non-local control transfer. 2016-10-18T04:15:37Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-18T04:15:40Z Bike: the nested function can call the "parent" function too. it's, you know, inter function optimization is not so easy 2016-10-18T04:15:51Z beach: The risk here is that the nested function may run in a different thread, so that there are asynchronous assignments to variables. 2016-10-18T04:16:07Z beach: Yes, very complicated, I know. 2016-10-18T04:16:21Z Bike: that seems kind of exotic... 2016-10-18T04:16:43Z Bike: i don't know how you'd do type inference in the presence of multithreading. 2016-10-18T04:17:10Z beach: Well, there is a pass to eliminate shared variables. Such variables turn into "cell"s. 2016-10-18T04:17:25Z Bike: sure. i thought you meant something that bypassed that somehow. 2016-10-18T04:17:49Z beach: I think the first goal is to make type inference sound. 2016-10-18T04:17:59Z beach: Even in the presence of nested functions. 2016-10-18T04:18:30Z beach: We kind of do that already because cells are considered to contain type T. 2016-10-18T04:18:32Z Bike: sounds good to me. i think it is now, as long as shared variables are made into cells. 2016-10-18T04:18:56Z Bike: calls to functions are also T if there are no declared types for em. 2016-10-18T04:19:11Z beach: Except possibly when there is a non-local control transfer. 2016-10-18T04:19:49Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-18T04:20:00Z beach: Let me try to come up with an example. 2016-10-18T04:20:14Z beach: ... but not in real time. I need to think about it. 2016-10-18T04:20:31Z Bike: i don't know what the instructions are, but wouldn't it just be that RETURN-FROM is treated as having no successor, and BLOCK is treated as being a (values &rest t), esentially? 2016-10-18T04:21:02Z beach: Well, BLOCK is gone and there is TAGBODY and GO as well. 2016-10-18T04:21:25Z Bike: i mean whatever the COME-FROM is, you know. 2016-10-18T04:21:46Z beach: Yes, so we might need to treat UNWIND differently. 2016-10-18T04:22:21Z beach: Maybe UNWIND must give type T to all the variables in the target function. 2016-10-18T04:22:29Z beach: Which is basically what you were just saying. 2016-10-18T04:22:49Z Bike: unwind shows up before a RETURN-FROM/GO/whatever only? 2016-10-18T04:23:30Z beach: Yes, for a non-local control transfer, there is an UNWIND followed by a control arc that has a target in a parent function. 2016-10-18T04:23:53Z Bike: nothing should really be live in the target function after an unwind then. 2016-10-18T04:24:21Z beach: I am hoping that doing it that way would be sound, if not very effective. 2016-10-18T04:24:41Z beach: It is very conservative of course. 2016-10-18T04:24:58Z Bike: yeah i mean you can just treat that as a dead end arc, as if it was a regular RETURN instruction or something. 2016-10-18T04:25:14Z beach: Imagine a variable that is assigned to once with a known specific type. It could not possibly change as a result of strange control flow. 2016-10-18T04:25:30Z Bike: you only want more information to know what type the nonlocal receiver should get, and we don't even track types from regular returns yet, so... i'm ok with conservatism. 2016-10-18T04:26:04Z beach: Yes, let's keep it simple and sound for now. That will cover almost all cases anyway. 2016-10-18T04:27:38Z Bike: the next thing i was thinking of doing was, well, that, and also (facilitating) using ftypes to get initial types for function parameters. i don't even want to think about what i just remembered is called "interprocedural" optimization until basics are out of the way, you know? 2016-10-18T04:27:58Z beach: I totally agree. 2016-10-18T04:29:03Z Bike: oh, unrelated but as long as you're around, does sicl have literal coalescence/make-load-form/load-time-value etc stuff somewhere? i kind of accidentally convinced drmeister to rewrite that whole t hing without using anything already in sicl 2016-10-18T04:29:05Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-18T04:29:13Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T04:29:27Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-18T04:29:37Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T04:30:07Z beach: I don't think it has that. 2016-10-18T04:30:23Z Bike: ok great. don't want to redo work. 2016-10-18T04:30:26Z beach: So you probably did the right thing. 2016-10-18T04:30:34Z edwlan_ joined #lisp 2016-10-18T04:30:41Z beach: To do the more complicated type inference and value numbering, a more sophisticated control-flow analysis is needed. We need to distinguish between nested functions that are only called, as opposed to possibly captured for later calls or for execution is separate threads. 2016-10-18T04:30:48Z Bike: i sketched a generic protocol for it, maybe i can put that in sicl at some point. it necessarily involves a fair amount of assumptions though 2016-10-18T04:31:05Z beach: OK, we can discuss that at some point. 2016-10-18T04:31:26Z Bike: yes indeed... i guess in hir you can trace where a variable goes reasonably easily... 2016-10-18T04:32:07Z Bike: check the enclose output, see if it only goes to assignment and funcall instructions, basically. 2016-10-18T04:32:16Z Bike: if anything shared is cells that should cover it, yeah? 2016-10-18T04:32:28Z beach: Basically, yes. 2016-10-18T04:32:42Z beach: Some Common Lisp functions might need special treatment. 2016-10-18T04:32:51Z Bike: what do you mean? 2016-10-18T04:32:54Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T04:33:00Z beach: Such as FIND-IF which is known to only call its predicate. 2016-10-18T04:33:12Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T04:33:13Z beach: Not capture it for execution in a thread. 2016-10-18T04:33:17Z earl-ducaine__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-18T04:33:19Z Bike: oh, you mean to expand what's allowed for a call-only 2016-10-18T04:33:24Z beach: Yes. 2016-10-18T04:33:32Z Bike: i know keeps a database of such information. it's sort of like a type 2016-10-18T04:33:35Z beach: But that is further in the future again. 2016-10-18T04:33:37Z Bike: i know sbcl keeps* 2016-10-18T04:33:57Z beach: Sure. It would. 2016-10-18T04:36:40Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-18T04:38:44Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-10-18T04:43:49Z beach: [reading the logs] That was a fascinating discussions about the complex numbers being ordered. :) 2016-10-18T04:46:26Z Bike: oh, are you like back on an actual computer 2016-10-18T04:46:34Z beach: Not yet, no. 2016-10-18T04:46:46Z beach: But I can load a file into Emacs. 2016-10-18T04:47:10Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-18T04:47:48Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-18T04:48:56Z loke: beach: You can take an arbitrary (non-zero) vector and order the numbers along that vector. 2016-10-18T04:50:14Z beach: loke: "fascinating" was meant to be ironic. I certainly don't want to continue the discussion. 2016-10-18T04:51:11Z PuercoPop: jasom: interesting. Submitted the PR to fix the issue. yay for gh's web interface 2016-10-18T04:51:12Z loke: beach: Aw, comeon :-) 2016-10-18T04:51:25Z beach: :) 2016-10-18T04:51:36Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T04:53:19Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-18T04:55:23Z Kaisyu222 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-18T04:55:40Z edwlan_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T04:58:05Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-18T04:58:20Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-18T04:59:27Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-10-18T04:59:51Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T05:02:09Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2016-10-18T05:02:42Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T05:11:49Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T05:13:08Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T05:14:14Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-18T05:21:26Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T05:23:08Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T05:23:25Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T05:23:27Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-18T05:24:24Z steelbird quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-18T05:30:45Z eschatologist: There was once an NNTP newsreader for Symbolics Genera called Hermes that was adapted to CLOS and CLIM and later ported to McCLIM. Does anyone have sources? 2016-10-18T05:31:06Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-18T05:32:58Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T05:33:43Z beach left #lisp 2016-10-18T05:38:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-18T05:38:51Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-18T05:39:49Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-10-18T05:42:22Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-18T05:46:01Z eschatologist: It was originally by Peter Clitherow and was ported to McCLIM by Gilbert Baumann: https://web.archive.org/web/20140426034009/http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/flux/hermes-5.png 2016-10-18T05:46:53Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T05:47:13Z zacts: hi lispers 2016-10-18T05:51:13Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T05:52:24Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-18T05:53:13Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-18T05:54:12Z kkv left #lisp 2016-10-18T05:58:29Z man213 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T06:00:46Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T06:04:59Z H4ns: does anyone have experience with interfacing cl to rabbitmq? loke? 2016-10-18T06:07:54Z loke: H4ns: Yes. I wrote cl-rabbit 2016-10-18T06:07:59Z loke: It's on QL 2016-10-18T06:08:16Z loke: H4ns: there is also cl-bunny, which I didn't write :-) 2016-10-18T06:08:33Z loke: Mine uses CFFI to the C API, cl-bunny implements the protocol natively in Lisp. 2016-10-18T06:09:05Z loke: Rabbitmq is pretty awesome :-) 2016-10-18T06:09:23Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-10-18T06:09:25Z H4ns: i don't mind cffi, but it could be hard to get that running with our legacy codebase as we're probably including an outdated cffi version. we'll see. 2016-10-18T06:09:55Z H4ns: do you know what's the deal with deadtrickster's fork? it seems to have evolved considerably. any plans to merge that? 2016-10-18T06:10:09Z H4ns: (our requirements are modest, so we will probably go with your version anyway) 2016-10-18T06:10:16Z loke: H4ns: No. He ended up moving away from his fork, and implemented cl-bunny instead. 2016-10-18T06:10:29Z H4ns: ah, ok. we'll ignore that. 2016-10-18T06:10:48Z DavidGu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T06:11:40Z loke: H4ns: I recommend you try both. cl-rabbit seems to be very stable, and has been used for years in production without a single problem. cl-bunny is probably technically better, since it's a native implementation, but I've only tested it lightly and never used it in prod (I'm sure DeadTrickster can tell you more). I'd recommend you try both. 2016-10-18T06:11:59Z loke: The API's are reasonably similar. 2016-10-18T06:12:26Z H4ns: i'd prefer cl-bunny because we don't have iolib in our codebase yet. 2016-10-18T06:12:49Z loke: H4ns: Sounds reasonable to me. 2016-10-18T06:13:18Z H4ns: but i said the wrong thing! :) 2016-10-18T06:13:33Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-10-18T06:13:34Z H4ns: i'd prefer cl-rabbit because we already have cffi, but not iolib. but thanks :) 2016-10-18T06:14:12Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-18T06:14:17Z loke: cl-rabbit doesn't require iolib though 2016-10-18T06:14:36Z H4ns: right. that's what i think to be one advantage. 2016-10-18T06:15:09Z loke: cl-rabbit-async does, which is a library on top of cl-rabbit that gives you asynchronous callbacks on messages, and transparent pooling of multiple channels in individual connections. 2016-10-18T06:15:32Z loke: Oh wait, did you say that cl-bunny requires iolib? I didn't know that. 2016-10-18T06:15:49Z salva joined #lisp 2016-10-18T06:15:57Z salva quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T06:16:39Z H4ns: we just need to send a bunch of metric messages for now, so our requirements are modest. 2016-10-18T06:17:25Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-18T06:17:48Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-18T06:18:12Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T06:18:17Z loke: H4ns: Let me know if you have problems with it. I'll be happy to help. 2016-10-18T06:19:30Z H4ns: thanks! 2016-10-18T06:20:19Z loke: I'm going for lunch now, but you know how to find me :-) 2016-10-18T06:20:32Z loke is everywhere except facebook and twitter :-) 2016-10-18T06:20:46Z H4ns: won't be looking at it right away, sadly 2016-10-18T06:21:09Z Jaho quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-18T06:21:09Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T06:22:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T06:24:41Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-18T06:25:05Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T06:25:12Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T06:25:51Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-18T06:26:24Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T06:26:43Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T06:26:59Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T06:28:28Z phoe: beaky: fascinating, eh? 2016-10-18T06:28:54Z phoe: irony aside - I hope I helped someone have a moment of realization 2016-10-18T06:30:05Z phoe runs off 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outdated version of cffi? 2016-10-18T09:46:39Z H4ns: actually, i have two different versions of cffi in my tree. i need to fix this. have not been updated in a few years. 2016-10-18T09:48:52Z jackdaniel: is there a reason to write (let ((foo '())) …) instead of (let ((foo ())) …) ; ? 2016-10-18T09:49:29Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-18T09:49:32Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-18T09:49:41Z White_Flame: probably the same reason people write #'(lambda ...) 2016-10-18T09:49:53Z jackdaniel: uhm, thanks 2016-10-18T09:50:06Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-18T09:50:08Z loke: jackdaniel: None. When evaluated '() becomes () becomes NIL. 2016-10-18T09:50:34Z loke: That said, here is an exable where it's not equivalent: '(foo bar '() hello) 2016-10-18T09:51:23Z H4ns: jackdaniel: i'd write (let (foo) ...) 2016-10-18T09:52:08Z jackdaniel: H4ns: yes, I do it that way myself, I was wondering about other people code (i.e if I'm not aware of subtle difference) 2016-10-18T09:52:33Z H4ns: some people like to be overly explicit :) 2016-10-18T09:54:28Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T09:54:38Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T09:55:13Z H4ns: loke: not sure if it is a cl-rabbit or a cffi issue, but where is the include path for amqp.h configured? it seems to add -I/opt/local/include by default 2016-10-18T09:55:32Z loke: Having temporary variables named QUOTE are nice too: (let ('"foo") (print quote)) 2016-10-18T09:55:53Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-18T09:56:09Z loke: H4ns: on my system it's in /usr/include 2016-10-18T09:59:31Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-18T09:59:34Z loke: On all systems where I've used cl-rabbit, the include files have been available in the standard locations. If it's not there, I'm not sure how to add more directories. However, if you want a quick fix, just put the fully qualified path in the include statements in grovel.lisp 2016-10-18T09:59:47Z H4ns: okay, thanks! 2016-10-18T10:00:06Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend.) 2016-10-18T10:00:18Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-18T10:00:43Z alienbot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-18T10:00:45Z loke: Hmm... it seems as though amqp_framing.h includes amqp.h. That could be an issue if the compiler isn't using the right flags. Let's see... 2016-10-18T10:00:54Z Grue`: loke: wow, this is cool. lots of opportunities to obfuscate code. 2016-10-18T10:00:58Z Grue`: (defun test (&key 't) (print quote)) 2016-10-18T10:02:28Z _death: (defun test (&optional #'#'+) (funcall function 1 2)) 2016-10-18T10:03:06Z loke: H4ns: ah, it seems as though the groveller checks for the CFLAGS environment variable. You should be able to get it to work by setting CFLAGS to -I/opt/local/include 2016-10-18T10:03:31Z H4ns: loke: thank you very much! :) 2016-10-18T10:06:09Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T10:06:11Z H4ns: loke: the variable to set is cffi:*cc-flags* i found 2016-10-18T10:07:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T10:08:00Z H4ns: oops, cffi-toolchain:*cc-flags* really 2016-10-18T10:08:24Z H4ns: yay, builds :) 2016-10-18T10:10:22Z loke: Nice :-) 2016-10-18T10:10:59Z loke: The examples in https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-rabbit/blob/master/src/examples.lisp should be enough to get you started. 2016-10-18T10:11:01Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-18T10:11:29Z loke: The API mirrors that of the C API quite closely. 2016-10-18T10:11:41Z H4ns: cool. i'll let you know if i can't get along with it. 2016-10-18T10:11:46Z loke: Good luck :-) 2016-10-18T10:12:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-18T10:14:13Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-10-18T10:16:25Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-18T10:20:53Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T10:27:44Z loke`` joined #lisp 2016-10-18T10:27:54Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T10:27:54Z loke` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T10:28:07Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-18T10:28:34Z loke: H4ns: do you need SSL support? I just realised that I had forgotten to add that since I didn't use it myself. I'm putting it in now. 2016-10-18T10:30:49Z andrei-n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T10:39:09Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-18T10:43:24Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T10:44:18Z H4ns: loke: i actually do, so once you have it, we'll test it. 2016-10-18T10:44:53Z loke: I just committed the first version, but I haven't added the functions to set keys yet. 2016-10-18T10:46:09Z H4ns: i'll only be able to look at it later on but give you some feedback by tomorrow. 2016-10-18T10:46:16Z loke: Sure 2016-10-18T10:53:33Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-18T10:58:38Z _death: loke: you can use :initial-bindings in make-thread 2016-10-18T10:59:47Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-18T11:00:08Z loke: _death: What are you referring to? 2016-10-18T11:00:55Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T11:00:56Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:01:28Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:04:30Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T11:11:42Z _death: loke: to bind *standard-output* 2016-10-18T11:15:42Z loke: _death: Did I ask about that? 2016-10-18T11:16:16Z _death: loke: no, I just looked at the examples.lisp link you pasted, thought you may be interested 2016-10-18T11:16:30Z loke: _death: Ah, I see. Thanks. :-) 2016-10-18T11:16:52Z loke: H4ns: I just pushed the last SSL-related functions. They exactly mirror the ones in rabbitmq-c. 2016-10-18T11:16:56Z loke: I haven't tested them yet. 2016-10-18T11:17:17Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:17:18Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2016-10-18T11:17:18Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:22:03Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T11:22:34Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:23:21Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-18T11:23:38Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T11:27:09Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:28:30Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T11:28:33Z beaky: hello 2016-10-18T11:28:48Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:28:48Z beaky: how do i minimize consing and allocate structs in one massive chunk like in C 2016-10-18T11:28:52Z fkac quit (Changing host) 2016-10-18T11:28:52Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:28:55Z beaky: s/structs/vectors of structs/ 2016-10-18T11:29:55Z _death: (map-into (make-array 42) #'make-foo) 2016-10-18T11:30:47Z _death: then you use the elements in the array and not cons new objects 2016-10-18T11:31:22Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T11:31:25Z _death: older dialects had a with-resource operator.. you can find a CL implementation 2016-10-18T11:32:13Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:35:04Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T11:35:43Z H4ns: beaky: see https://hanshuebner.github.io/lmman/resour.xml for a description how it is traditionally done. 2016-10-18T11:38:53Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:40:01Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-18T11:40:18Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:43:23Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-18T11:44:19Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:45:20Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T11:45:52Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-18T11:46:58Z H4ns: loke: i can report that publishing works. i'll try ssl 2016-10-18T11:47:29Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:48:57Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T11:49:11Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:50:23Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-10-18T11:51:00Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:53:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T11:54:17Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T11:54:23Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:56:08Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-18T11:57:54Z thomas is now known as jinglebellz 2016-10-18T11:59:19Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:00:19Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:01:57Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:02:08Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:03:04Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:03:40Z rogual joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:03:42Z tc2keats joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:04:42Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T12:05:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:05:56Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-18T12:15:05Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T12:16:18Z Fizzixnerd joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:20:10Z Hylisper joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:20:11Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-18T12:22:35Z KaliLinuxGR quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T12:23:09Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T12:23:52Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:25:00Z Hylisper quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T12:25:25Z KaliLinuxGR joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:28:36Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-18T12:30:24Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T12:31:02Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:32:35Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T12:32:52Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:33:14Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T12:35:34Z rogual quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I want to mutate each list later so they must be different entities. 2016-10-18T14:09:40Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T14:10:51Z didi`: I suppose I can write something like (let* ((n 42) (a (make-array n))) (map-into a (lambda (x) (declare (ignore x)) (list nil)) a) a) but it doesn't seem elegant enough. 2016-10-18T14:20:09Z didi`: Bah, never mind. It won't work on the grand schemes of things anyway. Back to the drawing board. 2016-10-18T14:20:17Z didi` left #lisp 2016-10-18T14:21:14Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:25:09Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:25:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T14:26:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:27:01Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-18T14:29:45Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:31:20Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T14:31:40Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:31:40Z angavrilov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-18T14:31:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:31:58Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:34:16Z klltkr: Hello people 2016-10-18T14:35:42Z pierpa: hallo there 2016-10-18T14:36:40Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T14:38:41Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-18T14:40:14Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:42:12Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T14:42:54Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-10-18T14:43:21Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:44:14Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:46:21Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:46:22Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:47:26Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:47:45Z Glitchy: Is it possible to set insensitive flag to cl-ppcre functions? 2016-10-18T14:47:57Z Glitchy: I dont want it to care about case. 2016-10-18T14:48:28Z trueneu quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-18T14:49:40Z trueneu joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:49:59Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:51:25Z H4ns: Glitchy: "(?i)regu-lar.expression?" 2016-10-18T14:51:37Z mood: Glitchy: You can pass `:case-insensitive-mode t' to CREATE-SCANNER, or... what H4ns said 2016-10-18T14:51:49Z Glitchy: Thanks H4ns & mood. 2016-10-18T14:52:00Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:52:13Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:52:33Z CEnnis91 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T14:52:53Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T14:53:23Z al-damiri quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T14:53:28Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T14:54:34Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:54:34Z angular_mike_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T14:54:35Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T14:58:28Z drmeister joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:58:33Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T14:59:20Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T15:03:16Z CEnnis91 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-18T15:08:50Z flamebeard_ joined #lisp 2016-10-18T15:09:18Z angular_mike_ joined #lisp 2016-10-18T15:10:40Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-18T15:13:23Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T15:18:13Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-10-18T15:18:36Z alphor left #lisp 2016-10-18T15:18:39Z alphor joined #lisp 2016-10-18T15:18:48Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T15:19:46Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-18T16:39:38Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-18T16:39:40Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-18T16:44:30Z RichardPaulBck[m: H4ns: is that globally available for any Regex library? 2016-10-18T16:45:08Z jasom: RichardPaulBck[m: that's the perl syntax for doing it, so it should work on any perl compatible library 2016-10-18T16:46:52Z u0_a176 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T16:49:57Z waynecolvin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T16:50:57Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-18T16:54:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T16:57:09Z rogual joined #lisp 2016-10-18T16:57:29Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2016-10-18T16:58:41Z pierpa: is there a way to get the number of cores available in SBCL? 2016-10-18T16:59:22Z joshe: I don't believe sbcl itself has an api for that 2016-10-18T17:00:09Z pierpa: hmmm 2016-10-18T17:00:14Z pierpa: ty 2016-10-18T17:00:36Z loke``: Even if there was, the concent of a "core" is so loose it's practically useless. 2016-10-18T17:00:42Z loke``: And it can even change at runtime. 2016-10-18T17:00:43Z jasom: pierpa: if you are on linux you can query /proc/cpuinfo but see what loke`` said 2016-10-18T17:01:05Z pierpa: no, I want something that works everywhere 2016-10-18T17:01:07Z raydeejay: you are not implying that intel multiplies their figures by two, right? 2016-10-18T17:01:44Z joshe: pierpa: perhaps there's a portable (not specific to sbcl) library which does this 2016-10-18T17:01:53Z loke``: raydeejay: Well, the core count usually reperesnts the number of exceution units, not ALU units. On a T-series SPARC that 4 (or 8?) times the number of actual cores 2016-10-18T17:01:56Z jasom: raydeejay: is it the number of ALUs, the number of simultaneous instruction streams, or something else? 2016-10-18T17:02:01Z pierpa: loke``: the loose definition is good enough fr my need :) 2016-10-18T17:02:15Z loke``: pierpa: What is your need? 2016-10-18T17:02:19Z jasom: raydeejay: on some superscalar CPUs there are more ALUs than simultaneous instruction streams 2016-10-18T17:02:22Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-18T17:02:33Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T17:02:55Z raydeejay: I was just making a very vague reference to an Uncle Bob talk where he goes on a minirant about Hyperthreading 2016-10-18T17:03:04Z raydeejay: :) 2016-10-18T17:03:39Z pierpa: loke``: just a function for dumping all the information I can about the environment, to remind me the condition under which a result was produced. 2016-10-18T17:03:46Z jasom: on a side note, is "ALU unit" a thing now, like "ATM Machine" or "PIN Number"? 2016-10-18T17:03:58Z loke``: jasom: Yes. 2016-10-18T17:04:52Z jasom has an inner pedant that gets a little bit sadder every time one of those expressions becomes mainstream 2016-10-18T17:04:59Z oGMo: jasom: it's one of those TLA acronyms 2016-10-18T17:05:10Z raydeejay: what is the problem with ALU units? 2016-10-18T17:05:18Z raydeejay: you have alus, and you count them in units 2016-10-18T17:05:23Z jasom: raydeejay: the U in ALU stands for unit 2016-10-18T17:05:35Z raydeejay: is it the same "unit", though? 2016-10-18T17:06:12Z jasom: raydeejay: getting way off topic for a side note, but I would argue that it is. Feel free to have the last word 2016-10-18T17:06:13Z raydeejay: one of those things is not like the others ! 2016-10-18T17:06:32Z raydeejay: nah, I'll go get confused with math instead 2016-10-18T17:06:58Z pierpa: https://bpaste.net/show/f58b59467d22 2016-10-18T17:08:46Z loke``: THOSE UPPER CASES! THEY BURN 2016-10-18T17:09:11Z pierpa: :) 2016-10-18T17:13:40Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T17:13:46Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-18T17:13:52Z akkad: if you defvar something in a function a, and a calls b which calls c, it should be lexically available in c? 2016-10-18T17:14:49Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-18T17:15:10Z jackdaniel: no, defvar makes special variable 2016-10-18T17:16:02Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-18T17:16:02Z akkad: let? 2016-10-18T17:16:08Z jackdaniel: so you may use it in c, but "lexical" doesn't sound right 2016-10-18T17:16:21Z akkad: like lexical-let 2016-10-18T17:17:59Z jackdaniel: sec, I'll make a paste 2016-10-18T17:18:13Z akkad: trying to define something limited in scope to a call chain in a thread 2016-10-18T17:18:34Z pierpa: then you want a dynamic variable? 2016-10-18T17:18:36Z jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/328917 2016-10-18T17:18:40Z jackdaniel: you want something like that 2016-10-18T17:18:48Z jackdaniel: (dynamic variable indeed) 2016-10-18T17:18:53Z u0_a176 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T17:19:03Z akkad: ahh if-let 2016-10-18T17:19:13Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T17:19:33Z akkad: thanks' 2016-10-18T17:20:27Z akkad: perfect thanks 2016-10-18T17:20:46Z jackdaniel: sure 2016-10-18T17:22:21Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T17:23:24Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-18T17:23:28Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-18T17:24:24Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-18T17:26:05Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-18T17:27:29Z jasom: akkad: note that LET is dynamic on special variables and lexical on non-special variables 2016-10-18T17:27:35Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-18T17:27:35Z phoe: yep 2016-10-18T17:27:47Z phoe: (defvar foo 5) 2016-10-18T17:27:52Z phoe: (let (foo bar) ...) 2016-10-18T17:28:00Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T17:28:07Z jasom: akkad: and I would strongly recommend using defvar rather than declaring it special everywhere as in jackdaniel's example 2016-10-18T17:28:10Z libreman quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-18T17:28:31Z jasom: akkad: you can use defvar without an initializer, so you still get an unbound variable if you erroneously access it outside the dynamic scope in which it is bound 2016-10-18T17:29:46Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T17:31:10Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-18T17:32:42Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-18T17:39:03Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2016-10-18T17:39:03Z 2016-10-18T17:39:03Z names: ccl-logbot wyan daniel-s Lord_of_Life Firedancer cantstanya zwwwdr arpunk1 switchy whiteline mordocai luis lpaste nilof rotty Glitchy Subfusc fouric jasom SlashLife Tordek fe[nl]ix mnoonan holly2 trinitr0n lieven failproofshark thijso sigjuice aap sohail payphone Blkt NNaNDude heddwch hjudt oGMo ski_ jackdaniel anachrome em clog_ gypsydav15 mathi_aihtam razzy89 ovenpasta sdothum phoe 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wooden_ nullx002 davsebamse benny shymega ircbrowse 2016-10-18T17:39:03Z names: cpape sebboh omilu nullman PlasmaStar fnord____ brucem H4ns alexherbo2 knobo nightfly zeraceth cmpitg_ gigetoo kjak___ impulse Mandus theBlackDragon misv sake reepca kolko_ DrCode pipping qlkzy dim Nikotiin1 o`connor_ _antoszka_ ChoHag AeroNotix aaronjensen Ober__ flip214_ snits easye bocaneri eschatologist tessier ramus swflint itruslove nicdev Posterdati froggey cpt_nemo pchrist gabiruh sukaeto aerique tanuzzo ecraven joshe killmaster tiago AntiSpamMeta 2016-10-18T17:39:03Z names: apathor_ brandonz_ setheus_ z0d beaky djinni`_ DGASAU` vsync_ adlai Neet schoppenhauer bandu dmiles Colleen nzambe Sigyn bitch norfumpit neuri8 jdz marsjaninzmarsa Oddity johs drot jinglebellz bounb funnel foom tristero OxOO troydm gniourf xristos PosterdatiMobile NhanH billstclair Merv Guest7479 samebchase unbalanced e shikhin ferada trig-ger MorTal1ty zkat velvetcore Petit_Dejeuner Ober danieli gensym mood tilpner __main__ 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(time (loop with x = (list 1 2 3 4) repeat 688 do (map-into x #'1+ x))) conses 2016-10-18T19:12:49Z phoe: (loop with x = (coerce '(1 2 3 4) 'vector) ...)? 2016-10-18T19:12:56Z phoe: knobo: well, disassemble it 2016-10-18T19:13:24Z jasom: can you set sbcl to trap on allocation? 2016-10-18T19:13:36Z jasom: that would be the easiest way 2016-10-18T19:15:34Z rjid754 left #lisp 2016-10-18T19:16:02Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-18T19:17:15Z knobo: I don't understand the disassemble 2016-10-18T19:18:04Z phoe: knobo: post it up 2016-10-18T19:19:40Z gentoo_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-18T19:20:41Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-18T19:21:00Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T19:23:35Z rjid754 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:24:01Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T19:24:49Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:25:54Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:27:06Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:27:10Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:27:34Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T19:27:46Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:27:52Z earl-ducaine__ joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:29:16Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T19:30:50Z rjid754 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T19:32:19Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:32:42Z jackdaniel: for instance compiler may recognize the pattern and unroll this loop/map if it's up to 2048 elements 2016-10-18T19:33:06Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-18T19:33:12Z jackdaniel: (or some other arbitrary number) 2016-10-18T19:33:24Z knobo: I don't und 2016-10-18T19:33:25Z jackdaniel: (plain guess of course) 2016-10-18T19:34:06Z Bike: looks like it conses 32768B. doesn't change if you up the iterations to a thousand. it is probably not making a list on every iteration. 2016-10-18T19:34:54Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T19:35:46Z knobo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/328928 2016-10-18T19:36:40Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T19:37:05Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:37:36Z knobo: sorry, wrong function.. let me check 2016-10-18T19:37:54Z knobo: ok, it conses too. 2016-10-18T19:38:12Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T19:41:12Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:41:46Z dddddd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-18T19:42:13Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:42:20Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-18T19:46:28Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T19:47:51Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2016-10-18T19:51:28Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:52:50Z novavis joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:53:45Z CEnnis91 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-18T19:53:57Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-18T19:55:35Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-18T19:56:51Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:00:40Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-18T20:01:33Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:03:12Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-18T20:03:40Z rotty joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:05:19Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2016-10-18T20:05:36Z Mat4 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:07:18Z Mat4 left #lisp 2016-10-18T20:07:50Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:07:51Z cantstanya quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-18T20:10:24Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-18T20:10:45Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:11:36Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:12:03Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T20:12:13Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:12:30Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:18:12Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-18T20:19:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T20:20:56Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:27:13Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:27:58Z solomon243 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:34:59Z jaykru joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:36:48Z jaykru quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-18T20:37:05Z jaykru joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:37:29Z jaykru quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-18T20:37:32Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:39:40Z jaykru joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:45:25Z kamog quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T20:47:09Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T20:48:27Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-18T20:54:17Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T20:55:36Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-18T20:56:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:57:47Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-18T20:58:16Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T21:01:20Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T21:03:34Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-18T21:04:08Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(function arguments) 2016-10-18T22:43:07Z ebrasca: Posterdati: lambdas 2016-10-18T22:44:06Z Posterdati: phoe: it seems to be a problem on i386 2016-10-18T22:44:14Z Posterdati: phoe: not on amd64 2016-10-18T22:45:53Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T22:46:16Z ebrasca: Posterdati: It feel great like math. 2016-10-18T22:47:16Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-18T22:48:46Z Posterdati: ebrasca: is not a language per se to make a good programmer, it is his knowledge of algorithms 2016-10-18T22:50:40Z ebrasca: Posterdati: I will pay. I like program better and don't stuck in small problems. 2016-10-18T22:53:20Z Posterdati: ebrasca: instead 2016-10-18T22:53:46Z Posterdati: ebrasca: read some good book! Gigamonkey's book is nice to start with Common Lisp 2016-10-18T22:54:58Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-18T22:56:49Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-18T22:57:11Z ebrasca: Posterdati: I have read PCL until chapter 19. 2016-10-18T22:57:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-18T22:57:56Z Posterdati: the Gigamonkey's book then! 2016-10-18T23:03:23Z ebrasca: Posterdati: Mastery by George Leonard says it is better learn with help of master. 2016-10-18T23:03:38Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:04:06Z Posterdati: in my opinion there will be less fun learning like that 2016-10-18T23:06:36Z ebrasca: Posterdati: I agree but I prefer learn better. 2016-10-18T23:07:27Z Jameser quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-18T23:09:16Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-18T23:15:10Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:15:39Z jinglebellz is now known as thomas 2016-10-18T23:16:27Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:18:52Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:21:08Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T23:21:31Z srcerer joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:23:23Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-18T23:24:21Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:25:13Z jaykru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T23:25:50Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:26:19Z jaykru joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:26:31Z jaykru quit (Changing host) 2016-10-18T23:26:31Z jaykru joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:27:38Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:27:56Z JuanDaugherty: as self help goes, it's not bad, just digested it; for me accepting another as master is completely alien, but the rest of it was OK, especially the part about the Fool, which is relevant here 2016-10-18T23:28:39Z tc2keats quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T23:29:16Z JuanDaugherty: and other recent readings have brought the concept of a drive, instinct to mastery 2016-10-18T23:31:46Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. accepting such personally, not books and so forth 2016-10-18T23:32:08Z JuanDaugherty: any lang is best mastered in use though 2016-10-18T23:33:34Z k4rtik quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-18T23:38:03Z k4rtik joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:38:05Z ebrasca: JuanDaugherty: though what? 2016-10-18T23:38:12Z Xach: I've been learning woodworking through books and videos and I would be very, very happy if there was a master to help correct my errors. 2016-10-18T23:39:14Z Xach: It would ease the journey. 2016-10-18T23:39:21Z JuanDaugherty: "though" here puts self- and task- directed experience at the top of the learning value hierarchy 2016-10-18T23:39:54Z jsmith_ joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:40:00Z JuanDaugherty: i did say "for me", i don't claim it will work for you ebrasca 2016-10-18T23:40:02Z jsmith_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-18T23:40:08Z jsmith_ joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:41:39Z ebrasca: JuanDaugherty: How I can know what task can help me? 2016-10-18T23:41:44Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T23:41:52Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-18T23:42:10Z JuanDaugherty: ebrasca, the end task you seek, which I presume is cl programming 2016-10-18T23:42:11Z jsmith___ joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:44:49Z jsmith_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-18T23:45:35Z ebrasca: JuanDaugherty: I am making l-system librery in cl but I have get stuck. 2016-10-18T23:46:08Z JuanDaugherty: ah, that's a specific task for which you will likely find help here 2016-10-18T23:46:42Z jsmith___ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-18T23:47:28Z gniourf joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:47:36Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:47:43Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:47:56Z ebrasca: JuanDaugherty: Here link https://github.com/ebrasca/l-system . 2016-10-18T23:48:04Z JuanDaugherty: yes, i just looked it up 2016-10-18T23:48:31Z ebrasca: JuanDaugherty: I am stuck in parametric l system. 2016-10-18T23:48:35Z JuanDaugherty: threading and multi processing niceties in cl, bordeaux and the like will be of interest 2016-10-18T23:50:03Z skyh joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:50:23Z ebrasca: JuanDaugherty: It mean I need change my data structure? 2016-10-18T23:50:55Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-10-18T23:51:25Z JuanDaugherty: in addition to a due diligence research step on relevant pkgs 2016-10-18T23:52:09Z ebrasca: JuanDaugherty: what you mean with pkgs? 2016-10-18T23:52:23Z JuanDaugherty: general rewriting, graph algo pkgs, etc 2016-10-18T23:52:49Z JuanDaugherty: possible there's one specific to l-systems in some lisp, maybe not cl 2016-10-18T23:54:14Z ebrasca: JuanDaugherty: There is in cl but is old and is not portable. 2016-10-18T23:54:20Z JuanDaugherty: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/areas/reasonng/atp/systems/hiper/0.html e.g 2016-10-18T23:54:48Z JuanDaugherty: stuff in lisp, prolog, etc. tends to be old. If you want new, js will work bettah 2016-10-18T23:55:50Z ebrasca: JuanDaugherty: It only run on one cl. It don't run on sbcl. 2016-10-18T23:57:02Z JuanDaugherty: cl is a standardized lang, generally porting, at least as far is the lisp is concerned is straightforward from one "normal" implementation to another 2016-10-18T23:58:01Z JuanDaugherty: maybe an old object system or the like could be problematic 2016-10-18T23:58:10Z JuanDaugherty: other should be just busy work 2016-10-18T23:58:54Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-18T23:59:17Z ebrasca: JuanDaugherty: I can't find libraryes of "general rewriting". 2016-10-19T00:02:11Z JuanDaugherty: the one I linked is, and implemented in a CL i ported to OS/2 around that time 2016-10-19T00:02:50Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2016-10-19T00:02:57Z JuanDaugherty: and an ancestor or at least related to sbcl 2016-10-19T00:03:31Z JuanDaugherty: unless i'm mistaken, sbcl forked from cmucl and I think that had provenance in kcl 2016-10-19T00:04:51Z nikki93 quit 2016-10-19T00:05:00Z Xach: I don't think that is the case. cmucl is from spice lisp. 2016-10-19T00:05:16Z JuanDaugherty: ah 2016-10-19T00:05:49Z JuanDaugherty: i think in fact it did descend from xKCL though 2016-10-19T00:06:16Z phoe: ebrasca: hey 2016-10-19T00:06:23Z phoe: I'm available for a while more if you'd like to chat 2016-10-19T00:07:13Z ebrasca: phoe: I am stuck making https://github.com/ebrasca/l-system . 2016-10-19T00:07:31Z ebrasca: phoe: It only have parametric l system. 2016-10-19T00:08:38Z JuanDaugherty: maybe no connection, thought I rembered raymond saying as much though 2016-10-19T00:10:42Z drmeister: What is an idiomatic way to compile a hash table into a fasl file? 2016-10-19T00:10:52Z drmeister: I never quite learned the trick 2016-10-19T00:11:09Z phoe: ebrasca: I'll have a look at it in the morning 2016-10-19T00:11:34Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T00:11:41Z phoe: drmeister: I might be ignorant at this case, but I don't think you can compile a hashtable 2016-10-19T00:11:51Z phoe: it's basically just mapping from hashes to objects 2016-10-19T00:12:01Z drmeister: Let's say I want to put a hash table together at compile time and then have it available in a dynamic variable after load time. 2016-10-19T00:12:16Z phoe: so, a list of pairs (hash . object)? 2016-10-19T00:12:29Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-10-19T00:12:30Z White_Flame is HEAVILY interested in a solution to that problem, too 2016-10-19T00:12:37Z phoe: that's the naive solution, I think 2016-10-19T00:12:44Z phoe: but I wonder whether there's a better way. 2016-10-19T00:13:04Z phoe: the best you can do is precompute the hashes and then just store them, AFAIK 2016-10-19T00:13:17Z White_Flame: the hack we currently use is to flush the fasl cache when building. That way, the table-filling macro will have run in the current VM state, when the image gets saved 2016-10-19T00:13:41Z JuanDaugherty guesses that maybe the C basis was married to spice elements, or spice was a common ancestor 2016-10-19T00:13:52Z drmeister: clhs 3.2.4.2.2 2016-10-19T00:13:52Z specbot: Definition of Similarity: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bdbb.htm 2016-10-19T00:15:16Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T00:15:31Z drmeister: Huh - I thought they were externalizable. 2016-10-19T00:15:59Z drmeister: They are in clasp - I just can't get the trick of externalizing them. 2016-10-19T00:16:19Z drmeister: Funny that 2016-10-19T00:17:41Z ebrasca: phoe: Thanks you. I go to bed now. 2016-10-19T00:18:08Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-19T00:18:12Z phoe: ebrasca: me too. 2016-10-19T00:18:29Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-19T00:19:56Z drmeister: White_Flame: Was that directed to me? about "flushing the fasl cache"? 2016-10-19T00:20:12Z drmeister: After reading it a few times I think it might be 2016-10-19T00:20:13Z seg joined #lisp 2016-10-19T00:20:25Z White_Flame: I'm just in a bind as a user as to how to communicate macro-populated hashtable info to runtime code 2016-10-19T00:20:35Z White_Flame: that's what I do to get around it, but it's a horrible hack and I want something better 2016-10-19T00:21:13Z White_Flame: basically, by rebuilding everytime, it avoids reading the fasls entirely 2016-10-19T00:21:42Z White_Flame: (or at least avoids reading a NIL where the hashtable should be) 2016-10-19T00:22:25Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T00:22:46Z JuanDaugherty: sounds like you need some simple persistence 2016-10-19T00:23:00Z drmeister: I'm working in Clasp, and I can't flush any caches. But I wrote the compiler to compile objects to FASL files and I wrote code for hash-tables. Then one shows up in the cclasp compiled code and I can't figure out how it got there or reproduce it. Weird. 2016-10-19T00:23:09Z JuanDaugherty: with save and restore logic 2016-10-19T00:23:50Z White_Flame: oh, so your problem is the opposite of mine :) You're seeing a hashtable that shouldn't be there, I'm seeing a NIL that I filled in at macroexpand time 2016-10-19T00:24:09Z White_Flame: (granted, that code was written many years ago) 2016-10-19T00:30:03Z wooden_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-19T00:31:29Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T00:32:27Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T00:33:19Z phoe: Niiiight, #lisp 2016-10-19T00:34:08Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T00:34:47Z nilof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T00:37:52Z White_Flame: JuanDaugherty: if you mean towards me, that's kind of overkill for a macroexpansion, and is a situation that happens both at image build time, as well as runtime loading of new services. The current thinking is that the next rewrite will export its table as an inline literal a-list into the expanded source code, and have the runtime generate the hashtable back from that form. 2016-10-19T00:38:55Z White_Flame: it's really a shame that hashtables don't have a portable literal form, to my knowledge. Of course, we could have custom readers, etc etc, but as it's a loop that the human isn't involved in, it's generally equivalent to just spanning through the a-list 2016-10-19T00:39:31Z White_Flame: actually, a custom reader wouldn't help, as we're talking about what gets stored in the fasl, not textual source code 2016-10-19T00:42:36Z White_Flame: but even in normal macroexpansion without fasl loading/saving, `(let ((table ,hashtable)) ...) does not compute 2016-10-19T00:45:03Z JuanDaugherty: yes, i mispoke, upon consideration sounds more like a scope issue 2016-10-19T00:45:41Z skyh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-19T00:46:08Z JuanDaugherty: in my experience, in general hashtables, unless something is dissemenated from them, don't need to survive the creating process 2016-10-19T00:46:32Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T00:47:19Z White_Flame: this is in the midst of a compiler, that can have lisp-based bodies inside the source code. So the macro looks at the code structure itself, creates a table of the various things it cares about, and wraps lisp bodies in lambda decoration. The runtime then should read the table to create its final structures and carry out execution 2016-10-19T00:48:41Z White_Flame: being able to run the macroexpansion portion once during image building would save a lot of startup time 2016-10-19T00:50:39Z drmeister cogitated a bit and came up with this... 2016-10-19T00:50:48Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/328933 2016-10-19T00:51:00Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T00:51:31Z drmeister: Build the hash-table at compile-time and use #. to treat it like a literal. 2016-10-19T00:52:34Z White_Flame: did you compile to fasl, restart lisp, and load from fasl? 2016-10-19T00:53:05Z drmeister: Yes 2016-10-19T00:53:08Z White_Flame: on non-clasp which errantly serializes hashtables? ;) 2016-10-19T00:53:23Z White_Flame: I'll give it a whirl here, too 2016-10-19T00:53:24Z drmeister: Nope. 2016-10-19T00:54:18Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T00:54:56Z drmeister: I wrote the code to serialize hashtables last night - but I learned this trick from the ECL code. ecl/src/lsp/predlib.lsp 2016-10-19T00:55:33Z White_Flame: with my code, though, I'm not dealing with a toplevel constant. I'm dealing with a generated hashtable per macroexpansion site, hence trying to have it local to the expanded body. 2016-10-19T00:55:55Z stevenspasbo quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2016-10-19T00:55:58Z drmeister: Ok. I understand. 2016-10-19T00:56:10Z stevenspasbo joined #lisp 2016-10-19T00:56:34Z White_Flame: hmm, the use of #. would need to be in the generated body in order for this scheme to even be attemptable, which I don't think is possible 2016-10-19T00:57:27Z drmeister: My problem was I rewrote the literal compilation code over the last two days and there was a bug in how hash-tables were constructed from the compiled code. The ECL source code that Clasp 'borrows' used this approach to compile a hash-table into the fasl and my broken code broke it so nothing worked. 2016-10-19T00:57:53Z drmeister: I needed a test case but couldn't figure it out until I found the code that did it originally in the ECL source code. 2016-10-19T00:58:33Z White_Flame: in reading through the related CLHS sections, though, it seems like this is all barking up an impossible tree anyway 2016-10-19T00:58:45Z White_Flame: for my case 2016-10-19T00:58:46Z drmeister: There's no time savings here at startup. The hash table needs to be constructed just like it would be if I built it in code. Your approach of saving the image after the hash-table is constructed is better in that regard. 2016-10-19T00:59:28Z White_Flame: right, but it doesn't solve the problem of passing hashtables from macrotime to runtime 2016-10-19T00:59:44Z drmeister: Nope. 2016-10-19T01:00:06Z White_Flame: according to the spec, I can't put it anywhere as a literal, so finding somewhere else to put it in the expansion is boggling 2016-10-19T01:00:08Z drmeister: But I solved my problem - thanks! 2016-10-19T01:00:12Z White_Flame: whee! :) 2016-10-19T01:01:37Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:04:37Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:05:58Z jasom: White_Flame: Why not have the macro expand to code that builds the hash-table? It's not particularly slow to build a hash-table 2016-10-19T01:06:28Z White_Flame: right, I mentioned that above, as what we're going to do on the next rewrite if no direct solution is found 2016-10-19T01:07:05Z jasom: White_Flame: SBCL can also serialize hash-tables with *print-readably* bound to T 2016-10-19T01:07:14Z White_Flame: however, I haven't been in that particular bit of code in a while, and don't know if we'll have object identity issues with shared data structures 2016-10-19T01:07:49Z skyh joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:07:52Z White_Flame: or if they contain any other data that can't be expressed as literal 2016-10-19T01:07:55Z jasom: White_Flame: ah, well that would be an issue even with an alist or plist, right? 2016-10-19T01:08:02Z White_Flame: yep 2016-10-19T01:08:21Z White_Flame: it's a mess; would be nice if the hashtable just did the right thing. It silently flips to NIL on loading the fasl 2016-10-19T01:08:28Z White_Flame: no warning or error or anything 2016-10-19T01:08:52Z White_Flame: but I'm not 100% up on the various interaction specifics during fasl generation; that might be perfectly acceptable standard behavior 2016-10-19T01:08:56Z jasom: White_Flame: set *print-readably* and *print-circle* then print out the plist and feed that into alexandria:plist-hash-table 2016-10-19T01:09:08Z White_Flame: right 2016-10-19T01:09:20Z jasom: White_Flame: *print-readably* will error if it can't print it out readably 2016-10-19T01:09:21Z White_Flame: I think it's a couple hundred KB, shouldn't be too brutal 2016-10-19T01:09:44Z stevenspasbo quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2016-10-19T01:09:57Z stevenspasbo joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:10:11Z White_Flame: as long as all of those instances' literal forms don't stick around in the runtime 2016-10-19T01:10:42Z White_Flame: hmm, I think they might. Anyway, I'm going to have to get a lot more specific on this issue when I get back into it 2016-10-19T01:11:01Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:11:05Z White_Flame: just throwing some ideas against the wall, as it was brought up 2016-10-19T01:12:45Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:14:12Z stevenspasbo quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-19T01:14:27Z stevenspasbo joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:14:56Z jasom: White_Flame: if you get closer to it let me know; I'm really good at solving the compile-time/run-time constraint problem 2016-10-19T01:15:26Z White_Flame: cool, I'll make note of it 2016-10-19T01:15:32Z White_Flame: have other fish to fry at the moment 2016-10-19T01:17:13Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T01:19:50Z gniourf joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:20:33Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:21:24Z gniourf quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-19T01:23:10Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:23:39Z stevenspasbo quit (Quit: Changing server) 2016-10-19T01:25:20Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-19T01:25:25Z gniourf joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:25:30Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T01:25:30Z earl-ducaine__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T01:25:45Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:25:50Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:26:29Z earl-ducaine__ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:30:43Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T01:33:36Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-19T01:33:59Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-19T01:34:06Z gniourf joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:35:05Z clog_ quit (Quit: ^C) 2016-10-19T01:35:18Z gniourf quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-19T01:35:20Z clog joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:35:21Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:35:24Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:39:22Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T01:40:55Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T01:42:32Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:45:06Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-19T01:46:28Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T01:48:23Z Atarian quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-19T01:49:01Z Atarian joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:51:14Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T01:56:26Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:02:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:03:22Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:04:00Z jealousmonk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-19T02:04:17Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T02:05:34Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:07:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T02:09:15Z skyh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T02:09:50Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:11:35Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T02:16:52Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T02:23:09Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:23:40Z jaykru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T02:24:25Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T02:24:27Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-19T02:24:46Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-19T02:25:00Z earl-ducaine__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T02:25:47Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-19T02:27:00Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:30:05Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:30:55Z jaykru joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:33:38Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T02:34:50Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-19T02:35:22Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:35:36Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:36:45Z jokleinn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-19T02:41:32Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:43:33Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T02:43:40Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-19T02:45:31Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T02:51:54Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-19T02:56:38Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T02:58:05Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T02:58:28Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-19T03:01:02Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T03:01:10Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-19T03:01:18Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-19T03:03:08Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-19T03:03:37Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-19T03:04:01Z akkad: odd ccl gets # inserted into a sqlite query. sql = "create unique index #1=files_idx1 on #1#(id)" when it should be "create unique index files_idx on id" 2016-10-19T03:04:02Z akkad: 2016-10-19T03:04:52Z White_Flame: set *print-circle* to nil. That's the syntax fo shared structure, when the same object occurs multiple times in a string render 2016-10-19T03:04:55Z warweasle: How do I turn a string into a keyword? 2016-10-19T03:05:13Z Bike: (intern string :keyword) 2016-10-19T03:05:15Z warweasle: Intern is giving me a literal "|:float|") 2016-10-19T03:05:31Z White_Flame: that's because it's lowercase 2016-10-19T03:05:33Z Bike: take out the colon and upcase it 2016-10-19T03:05:34Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-19T03:05:49Z warweasle: Ahh...I didn't add the :keyword at the end. 2016-10-19T03:06:12Z warweasle: Thanks 2016-10-19T03:06:47Z White_Flame: alternatively, you could read-from-string when the package is keyword, to use the default read casing 2016-10-19T03:07:01Z White_Flame: (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) (read-from-string "foo")) -> :FOO 2016-10-19T03:07:13Z skyh joined #lisp 2016-10-19T03:07:41Z White_Flame: (which comes with the security vulnerabilities of READ, of course) 2016-10-19T03:08:21Z warweasle: White_Flame: I tried that and my monitor smacked me! 2016-10-19T03:09:11Z warweasle: White_Flame: It's just like how goto statements summon velcoraptors 2016-10-19T03:09:44Z White_Flame: so TAGBODY should be renamed VELOCIRAPTORBODY? :) 2016-10-19T03:09:50Z jaykru quit 2016-10-19T03:10:00Z warweasle: http://xkcd.com/292/ 2016-10-19T03:13:26Z warweasle: White_Flame: Welcome to the MEME programming language. SRSLY? 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(Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-19T09:44:19Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-19T09:46:13Z larsen quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-19T09:48:44Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-19T09:50:16Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-19T09:51:00Z larsen joined #lisp 2016-10-19T09:53:05Z razzy89 quit (Quit: razzy89) 2016-10-19T09:55:34Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-19T09:57:21Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-19T10:00:00Z alienbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T10:00:38Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-19T10:00:49Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T10:02:47Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-19T10:08:22Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-19T10:30:51Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T10:36:02Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-19T10:43:47Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T10:45:38Z fkac: What are your opinions on some Common Lisp libraries being available as packages on Linux distributions? 2016-10-19T10:46:19Z phoe: fkac: don't. 2016-10-19T10:46:21Z phoe: that's my opinion. 2016-10-19T10:46:40Z phoe: they tend to be outdated and broken and conflicting with QL- and MELPA/ELPA-downloaded ones. 2016-10-19T10:46:47Z phoe: that's for libraries. 2016-10-19T10:47:18Z ferada: there's https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb that'd be a nice thing to mainstream 2016-10-19T10:47:25Z ferada: and of course for other package managers 2016-10-19T10:49:58Z fkac: My experience with them has been quite bad in the past but someone sort of requested them, so I wonder why someone would find them useful (beyond having a quick, standard command to get everything) 2016-10-19T10:50:49Z fkac: The individual in question referred to CPAN as a great example but I fail to see how Quicklisp isn't pretty much equivalent to that 2016-10-19T10:51:48Z phoe: fkac: ...it is 2016-10-19T10:52:01Z phoe: teach them Quicklisp and they'll be happy 2016-10-19T10:53:18Z rtmpdavid joined #lisp 2016-10-19T10:53:40Z fkac: I figured, thanks 2016-10-19T10:53:52Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-19T10:54:11Z Shinmera: Making distribution packages can make sense if it's an actual application rather than a library. 2016-10-19T10:54:19Z Shinmera: Which is the case for pgloader, which is what ql-to-deb was written for. 2016-10-19T10:54:26Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T10:54:29Z ferada: it still makes sense for libraries 2016-10-19T10:54:31Z schjetne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T10:55:02Z Shinmera: It doesn't because it means a different interface on every distribution and having to manually keep the packages up to date all the time. 2016-10-19T10:55:11Z ferada: in fact e.g. gentoo often has -9999 packages that go directly to the git version 2016-10-19T10:55:13Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-10-19T10:55:16Z jackdaniel: given the central registry is set properly and system uses just one implementation (for instance sbcl, like with gcc vs clang), it makes sense 2016-10-19T10:55:21Z fkac: The only change in the result would be the installed location, which would be system-wide rather than user-specific 2016-10-19T10:55:31Z ferada: > system-wide location 2016-10-19T10:55:35Z ferada: which would be awesome 2016-10-19T10:55:44Z Shinmera: You can make Quicklisp system-wide. 2016-10-19T10:55:52Z schjetne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T10:55:58Z Shinmera: That's really not any incentive to put your library onto the distro's packages. 2016-10-19T10:56:03Z fkac: It's for OpenBSD, which pretty much uses only ecl (and perhaps sbcl soon) 2016-10-19T10:57:10Z fkac: Well, Quicklisp could be an installable package and be patched to install everything to a system-wide directory, but I don't see much of an advantage there – it seems to me most people will like quicklisp to be user-specific, and those who want it to be installed system-wide can sort it out trivially 2016-10-19T10:57:48Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-10-19T10:57:59Z jackdaniel: but it's good only for sharing common fasls by the applications (instead of keeping images duplicating a lot of stuff everywhere), for development it's a no-go imho 2016-10-19T10:58:45Z fkac: I suppose it would make sense for things like server deployment, which is what most people use OpenBSD for 2016-10-19T10:59:03Z jackdaniel: and I don't think we have well estabilished dynamic linking in CL, so not sure how well it would work 2016-10-19T10:59:26Z jackdaniel: s/in CL/in CL is/ 2016-10-19T10:59:34Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-19T11:00:00Z jackdaniel: (scratch the s///) 2016-10-19T11:02:21Z KaliLinuxGR quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T11:04:28Z Posterdati: hi 2016-10-19T11:04:34Z Posterdati: is clim broken? 2016-10-19T11:05:02Z Posterdati: "Package SILICA does not exist." 2016-10-19T11:06:39Z mood: Posterdati: Are you trying to start the Scigraph package? 2016-10-19T11:06:42Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-19T11:06:47Z mood: s/package/app 2016-10-19T11:07:20Z Posterdati: mood: no I'd like to use clim for my application 2016-10-19T11:07:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-19T11:08:43Z jackdaniel: where do you refere to silica? 2016-10-19T11:08:52Z Posterdati: I do not 2016-10-19T11:09:05Z Posterdati: just only (ql:quickload :clim) 2016-10-19T11:09:47Z jackdaniel: what clim do you use? 2016-10-19T11:09:57Z jackdaniel: McCLIM, clim2, something else? 2016-10-19T11:10:02Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-19T11:10:15Z jackdaniel: with McCLIM "clim" system loads just fine, but you should quickload "mcclim" system 2016-10-19T11:10:24Z Posterdati: ah ok 2016-10-19T11:10:48Z Posterdati: loading 2016-10-19T11:11:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-19T11:11:50Z mood: It's interesting how in the McCLIM "Scroll Test" demo, I can't scroll using the scrollwheel, but in all other demos I tried it works perfectly 2016-10-19T11:12:14Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: it is ok :) thanks 2016-10-19T11:12:24Z jackdaniel: sure 2016-10-19T11:13:03Z jackdaniel: mood: mouse scrolling is implemented somewhat backward - as a gadget mixin 2016-10-19T11:14:06Z jackdaniel: to change that so the scroll pane handles the even we should refactor events distribution 2016-10-19T11:14:16Z jackdaniel: s/the even/the event/ 2016-10-19T11:14:38Z jackdaniel: because at the moment it is passed straight to the gadget (and its "container" is ommited) 2016-10-19T11:14:52Z mood: jackdaniel: Ah, I see. And the "Scroll Test" uses a scroll pane 2016-10-19T11:14:57Z jackdaniel: exactly 2016-10-19T11:15:37Z jackdaniel: so it's more the implementation flaw (which will be eventually fixed) than a bug 2016-10-19T11:16:09Z mood: I'm playing around with McCLIM a bit to see how feasible it would be to integrate into StumpWM, possibly to replace the rather crufty UI code we have now 2016-10-19T11:16:37Z jackdaniel: cool, someone was mentioning that I think 2016-10-19T11:16:44Z jackdaniel: btw, there is #clim channel if you need some assistance 2016-10-19T11:17:00Z jackdaniel: (moderately active :) 2016-10-19T11:17:07Z mood: :) 2016-10-19T11:19:24Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-19T11:21:43Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-19T11:26:41Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T11:30:52Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T11:31:08Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-19T11:33:37Z Davidbrcz quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-19T11:40:27Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T11:41:45Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-19T11:45:26Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T11:45:33Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-19T11:46:23Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T11:47:40Z freehck joined #lisp 2016-10-19T11:54:09Z arduo joined #lisp 2016-10-19T11:58:43Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T11:59:01Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:00:11Z ski_ is now known as ski 2016-10-19T12:00:35Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T12:03:48Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-19T12:09:57Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:12:33Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:13:27Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:13:54Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-19T12:14:17Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T12:17:35Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:18:25Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:19:28Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T12:19:35Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:20:06Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T12:20:16Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:20:37Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:20:40Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T12:20:55Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:21:20Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T12:21:32Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:22:03Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T12:22:13Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:22:42Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T12:27:21Z mattrepl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T12:28:20Z mattrepl joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:33:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T12:35:41Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:38:12Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-19T12:39:43Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T16:11:54Z flacko joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:13:57Z ggole quit 2016-10-19T16:15:02Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:16:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:18:32Z anunnaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T16:20:03Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-19T16:20:53Z Glitchy: Hey all, I'm coming from an OOP background and trying to write more functional code. In a language like Java, I use dependency injection so that I can easily switch out components. This is particularly useful in testing because I can for example pass in a mock database when testing functionality that uses the Gateway classes. 2016-10-19T16:21:16Z Glitchy: Is dependency injection still a pattern in a functional paradigm, and if so, how would I achieve something like that? 2016-10-19T16:21:31Z Glitchy: (I know this isn't a lisp-specific question, but it seems relevant) 2016-10-19T16:22:08Z Bike: well, lisp can be object oriented instead of functional, for one. 2016-10-19T16:22:49Z Glitchy: Bike: I know that, I'm trying to avoid going OOP on a specific project, to train myself to stop abusing state. 2016-10-19T16:22:55Z Bike: for two, i vaguely remember dependency injection amounting to giving functions more parameters, so yeah, you can do that 2016-10-19T16:23:30Z Xach: I tend to think of it as using a variable instead of a literal class name in make-instance. 2016-10-19T16:24:39Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:27:13Z Glitchy: I guess what I'm trying to do is write more idiomatic code. Can anyone give me an example of a project with good tests? 2016-10-19T16:29:24Z mattrepl joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:29:26Z Xach: postmodern seems pretty good to me 2016-10-19T16:29:27Z heurist`_ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:29:52Z jackdaniel: if you look for functional code, you may peek at fset library 2016-10-19T16:30:06Z jasom: There is a generic container library that uses heavy dependency injection, I'm blanking on its name though. 2016-10-19T16:30:35Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T16:30:36Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:30:39Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/fset/Site/index.html ← 2016-10-19T16:30:42Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-19T16:31:38Z mordocai: jasom: Would it be https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-containers? (I just searched for common lisp containers, haven't looked at the code) 2016-10-19T16:31:59Z jasom: nope 2016-10-19T16:32:12Z loke``: mordocai: cl-containers is decent, as long as you don't use its red-black tree implementation. It's broken. 2016-10-19T16:33:34Z jasom: http://cliki.net/lisp-interface-library <-- that's it 2016-10-19T16:33:43Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:34:00Z jasom: I consider his interface passing style to be a form of DI 2016-10-19T16:34:09Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-19T16:34:12Z tax joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:35:05Z akkad joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:35:42Z heurist`_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-19T16:36:01Z jasom: but to answler Glitchy, DI in functional programming usually just means passing a function as a parameter. 2016-10-19T16:36:17Z arduo quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-10-19T16:37:56Z younder: https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/functional-programming-haskell 2016-10-19T16:38:56Z jasom: If you are doing interface injection, then method specializations do that for you. 2016-10-19T16:39:21Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T16:42:53Z Xach: Welcome back, younder. 2016-10-19T16:43:01Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:44:59Z heurist`_` joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:47:26Z younder: Miss me? Well I've been more up to Haskell these days, but still do the do the old dabble at some CL. 2016-10-19T16:48:07Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T16:48:13Z heurist_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T16:48:20Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:50:16Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T16:51:00Z Xach: Congratulations on beating lung cancer. 2016-10-19T16:52:14Z younder: Category theory has been a B*** though ;) 2016-10-19T16:57:57Z shka_: hi 2016-10-19T16:58:09Z shka_: any idea why matlisp is not on the quicklisp? 2016-10-19T16:58:09Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-19T16:58:32Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T16:58:49Z jackdaniel: nobody submitted it probably 2016-10-19T16:58:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T16:58:55Z jackdaniel: quicklisp-projects on github is a place 2016-10-19T16:58:56Z Xach: shka_: i suspect because it does not build with asdf. 2016-10-19T16:59:22Z Xach: But I could be wrong. I don't remember specifically if it was requested and what the problem was. 2016-10-19T16:59:30Z shka_: hmmm 2016-10-19T16:59:53Z shka_: dunno 2016-10-19T17:00:07Z shka_: what people around are using for matrix math? 2016-10-19T17:00:11Z shka_: nothing fancy 2016-10-19T17:01:00Z shka_: but if i could plug it into lparallel it would be nice 2016-10-19T17:01:45Z younder: Let's face it. In the old days CL was used for math like macsygma, now that aspect has take on somewhat of a sideshow. We have mathematica and Haskell for the purists.. As a meta-mata-lanugage CL still stands tall. 2016-10-19T17:01:46Z shka_: LispLab? 2016-10-19T17:01:53Z jackdaniel: maxima maybe? 2016-10-19T17:02:25Z shka_: younder: ok, ok, i just need a library for matrix math 2016-10-19T17:02:27Z jackdaniel: (but I don't think it will be easy to integrate it with lparallell) 2016-10-19T17:02:37Z shka_: i don't want to reconquer the world :D 2016-10-19T17:02:48Z Shinmera: shka_: Depending on what kinda matrix math, this may or may not be of interest https://shinmera.github.io/3d-matrices/ 2016-10-19T17:02:50Z Xach: shka_: matlisp doesn't build for me: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-10-19/failure-report/matlisp.html#matlisp 2016-10-19T17:02:53Z shka_: jackdaniel: i can live without lparallel 2016-10-19T17:02:56Z ebrasca-afk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T17:03:08Z shka_: Xach: oh, ok 2016-10-19T17:03:08Z jackdaniel: shka_: check out maxima then 2016-10-19T17:03:25Z shka_: jackdaniel: isn't that like super overkill? 2016-10-19T17:03:44Z jackdaniel: I don't know what you want to compute 2016-10-19T17:03:58Z shka_: right 2016-10-19T17:04:06Z shka_: well, i will keep maxima in mind 2016-10-19T17:04:11Z jackdaniel: maybe Shinmera's 3d-matrices is enough for you, maxima is a general-purpose solution 2016-10-19T17:04:41Z shka_: yeah, it looks more or less ok 2016-10-19T17:05:30Z shka_: it has doc 2016-10-19T17:05:32Z shka_: s 2016-10-19T17:05:38Z shka_: which is rather nice 2016-10-19T17:05:58Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-19T17:09:03Z Xach: it could be easy to fix matlisp 2016-10-19T17:09:29Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2016-10-19T17:09:56Z younder: https://github.com/ghollisjr/cl-ana/blob/master/tensor 2016-10-19T17:10:46Z younder: tensor is a generalixation of matrix.. 2016-10-19T17:18:52Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-19T17:18:57Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-19T17:25:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T17:28:07Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-19T17:29:34Z shka_: younder: oh, thanks! 2016-10-19T17:29:44Z shka_: i did not known about that package 2016-10-19T17:29:55Z shka_: i actually work in data analysis company 2016-10-19T17:30:18Z shka_: i'm just a system programer myself 2016-10-19T17:30:29Z shka_: but i will gladly take a look at that 2016-10-19T17:31:23Z rpg: Does anyone know of a Hindley-Milner type-checker written in common lisp? [note: doesn't have to be a type-checker *for* CL...] 2016-10-19T17:34:19Z jasom: rpg: at least some versions of Qi/Shen are written in CL, but there are licensing issues with that 2016-10-19T17:34:46Z younder: tp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/boyer/diss/akers.pd 2016-10-19T17:35:48Z rpg: I wouldn't have thought this was so unusual, if only for DSLs. (note that the Boyer-Moore TP -- thanks younder! -- probably counts) 2016-10-19T17:37:11Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-19T17:38:50Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2016-10-19T17:41:30Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T17:41:37Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-19T17:42:44Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-19T17:53:16Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-19T17:54:01Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-19T17:56:28Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-19T17:58:04Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:03:31Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:07:11Z ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 2016-10-19T18:07:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:10:05Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-19T18:11:02Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:12:53Z akkad: inm slime backtraces is there a way to view globals defined at a given frame? vs just locals? 2016-10-19T18:21:01Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:22:15Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-19T18:23:02Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:23:41Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-19T18:29:18Z tc2keats joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:29:35Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:34:57Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:36:31Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:37:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:37:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-19T18:37:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:37:31Z kamog quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T18:38:32Z jasom: akkad: "e" evaluates an expression in a given frame 2016-10-19T18:38:35Z mood: akkad: I don't think so. It's also probably not reasonable, because at any point in time there is a massive amount of globals. 2016-10-19T18:39:03Z mood: But yes, what jasom said should work for individual variables 2016-10-19T18:39:16Z jasom: I don't know if that handles dynamic bindings correctly (anyone know?) 2016-10-19T18:40:30Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:40:56Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:41:08Z younder: jasom, msg XACK 2016-10-19T18:41:09Z mood: jasom: It doesn't, apparently 2016-10-19T18:42:35Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T18:42:48Z mood: At least not on SBCL. On every frame, it gives the last dynamically-bound value 2016-10-19T18:43:04Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:44:33Z akkad: k thanks 2016-10-19T18:45:57Z jasom: mood: tested with debug 3? 2016-10-19T18:46:22Z jasom: younder? 2016-10-19T18:46:47Z mood: jasom: Yes, I restrict debug to 3 in my .sbclrc 2016-10-19T18:47:57Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:50:03Z kamog joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:52:57Z tc2keats quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-19T18:52:57Z zooey quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-19T18:54:17Z tc2keats joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:54:41Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-19T18:55:38Z younder: jasom, yes I belive he is the best to relove that problem 2016-10-19T18:56:34Z jasom: younder: XACK is the best to resolve which problem? 2016-10-19T18:56:42Z jasom: sorry, I'm totally lost 2016-10-19T18:59:04Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-19T18:59:05Z younder: jasom, inm slime backtraces is there a way to view globals defined at a given frame? vs just locals? 2016-10-19T18:59:13Z younder: that one 2016-10-19T19:00:01Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:01:28Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-19T19:05:39Z mattrepl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T19:06:50Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:07:55Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:08:12Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T19:09:21Z tc2keats quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T19:10:40Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T19:11:04Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T19:12:27Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:13:21Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T19:13:32Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:13:41Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:13:48Z earl-ducaine__ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:15:13Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:16:48Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-19T19:19:56Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T19:20:00Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-19T19:20:48Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-19T19:22:43Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:22:52Z dyelar quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-19T19:23:08Z younder quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-10-19T19:23:41Z thijso quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T19:25:04Z thijso joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:25:35Z jasom: ah 2016-10-19T19:25:53Z younder joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:29:23Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:31:06Z solomon243 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-19T19:40:36Z |3b|` is now known as |3b| 2016-10-19T19:44:41Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:44:56Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:45:06Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-19T19:46:05Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T19:46:50Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T19:47:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:48:13Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:48:42Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-10-19T19:50:11Z mac_ified left #lisp 2016-10-19T19:54:10Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:55:37Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-19T19:58:59Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:00:33Z KaliLinuxGR joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:03:00Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T20:08:25Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T20:09:15Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T20:11:56Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-19T20:16:25Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:17:49Z beaky: hello 2016-10-19T20:18:00Z klltkr: Hello beaky 2016-10-19T20:18:13Z beaky: are there open-source webapps developed in common lisp which ones do you recommend i read 2016-10-19T20:18:39Z phoe: webapps? 2016-10-19T20:18:47Z phoe: you might want to see clack 2016-10-19T20:18:57Z solomon243 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:19:38Z beaky: is clack like the express.js of lisp 2016-10-19T20:20:05Z flacko quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2016-10-19T20:20:21Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-19T20:21:18Z younder: Read the hunchentoot (edi weitz) website 2016-10-19T20:22:10Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:25:17Z jasom: beaky: it's more like the wsgi of lisp 2016-10-19T20:25:49Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:26:00Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-19T20:26:40Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:26:44Z beaky: ah 2016-10-19T20:27:05Z shrdlu68: Hello, humans. 2016-10-19T20:27:55Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-19T20:28:33Z klltkr: Hello shrdlu68 2016-10-19T20:32:07Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:32:33Z daniel-s quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-19T20:33:07Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:41:10Z sellout-1 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:45:32Z solomon243 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T20:45:36Z haom joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:45:39Z haom: hello 2016-10-19T20:45:52Z Baggers: hi 2016-10-19T20:46:47Z klltkr: Hello haom 2016-10-19T20:46:55Z haom: if I have a local binding, let (a 1) (b 2) etc, and i have a list of symbols '(a b), how can i turn that list into (1 2)? 2016-10-19T20:47:13Z haom: theres symbol-value if a and b are special variables, but what when theyre not? 2016-10-19T20:48:41Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-19T20:50:23Z phoe: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (list a b)) 2016-10-19T20:50:26Z phoe: ;=> (1 2) 2016-10-19T20:51:31Z jasom: haom: what is the use-case? 2016-10-19T20:51:46Z jasom: haom: more specifically why is (list a b) not sufficient? 2016-10-19T20:53:51Z haom: because I guess the list would make copies of the objects, i just want to reference them by symbols. 2016-10-19T20:54:28Z haom: i'm of course not sure about that. 2016-10-19T20:55:04Z phoe: copies of the objects? 2016-10-19T20:55:07Z phoe: why? 2016-10-19T20:55:14Z haom: I want a list of the lexical symbols i create so i can work on them without copying the objects. 2016-10-19T20:55:50Z mood: Nothing will be copied 2016-10-19T20:56:18Z phoe: there's no copying whatsoever 2016-10-19T20:56:32Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-19T20:56:37Z haom: how can I know that? 2016-10-19T20:56:51Z phoe: the language specifies that behaviour 2016-10-19T20:57:05Z phoe: dereferencing a lexical variable never copies anything 2016-10-19T20:57:14Z phoe: (let ((a something) (b something-else)) (list a b)) 2016-10-19T20:57:22Z phoe: the values of A and B are not copied by something like that 2016-10-19T20:58:09Z haom: well, that circumstance would quite elegantly solve my problem. 2016-10-19T20:58:16Z beaky: does lisp let you monkeypatch functions in packages 2016-10-19T20:59:59Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T21:00:17Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-19T21:02:04Z phoe: beaky: monkeypatch? 2016-10-19T21:02:05Z KaliLinuxGR quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T21:02:26Z beaky: extracting the existing definition as a sexp, editing it, then redefining it 2016-10-19T21:02:34Z phoe: not really. 2016-10-19T21:02:38Z beaky: :< 2016-10-19T21:02:45Z phoe: the implementation is not required to hold the fdefinition as a sexp. 2016-10-19T21:02:57Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-19T21:03:08Z phoe: but as long you have the source code for it, nothing prevents you from redefining that functions 2016-10-19T21:03:42Z haom: ok, phoe, you were right, thanks. 2016-10-19T21:03:53Z phoe: and usually you have the source code for your function. 2016-10-19T21:04:46Z haom left #lisp 2016-10-19T21:09:40Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-19T21:12:34Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T21:15:57Z KaliLinuxGR joined #lisp 2016-10-19T21:16:26Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-19T21:23:18Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-19T21:26:31Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-10-19T21:29:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T21:31:21Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T21:32:25Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T21:33:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T21:35:03Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-19T21:39:34Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-19T21:42:02Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T21:46:22Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T21:54:55Z p_l: beaky: monkeypatching generally doesn't involve extracting the definition 2016-10-19T21:55:15Z p_l: it's just hypocritical pythonistas word for runtime redefinition ;) 2016-10-19T21:58:35Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T21:59:33Z beaky: i love clack 2016-10-19T22:00:26Z Shinmera left #lisp 2016-10-19T22:01:49Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:02:09Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T22:02:10Z heurist__ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:02:19Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:04:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:05:22Z heurist`_` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-19T22:08:48Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T22:11:07Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T22:17:48Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-19T22:18:44Z KaliLinuxGR quit (Quit: Keep Hacking) 2016-10-19T22:18:57Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-19T22:19:10Z KaliLinuxGR joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:20:35Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:22:31Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:24:33Z Guest58425 joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:25:04Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:25:12Z Guest58425 left #lisp 2016-10-19T22:27:32Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T22:27:58Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-19T22:27:58Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-19T22:28:08Z tristero quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-19T22:29:28Z adolf_st_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T22:31:55Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-19T22:32:47Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:33:26Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:33:58Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-19T22:33:58Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:35:23Z arpunk1 is now known as arpunk 2016-10-19T22:38:52Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T22:42:43Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-19T22:43:35Z phoe: beaky: :D 2016-10-19T22:43:47Z phoe: it's one of the things that I'm going to use on my CL demo. 2016-10-19T22:44:10Z shrdlu68: How does one achieve C-like macros? 2016-10-19T22:45:53Z phoe: shrdlu68: what do you mean? 2016-10-19T22:45:57Z phoe: could you give me an example? 2016-10-19T22:46:45Z shrdlu68: #define HELLO_REQUEST 0 2016-10-19T22:46:55Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-19T22:48:36Z pierpa: (defconstant HELLO-REQUEST 0) 2016-10-19T22:48:49Z tristero joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:49:47Z pierpa: but normally one just uses 'hello-request 2016-10-19T22:51:00Z shrdlu68: That's what I was thinking. 2016-10-19T22:51:18Z phoe: shrdlu68: there are a few mechanisms for that 2016-10-19T22:51:22Z pierpa: good, you're on the right path then 2016-10-19T22:51:35Z phoe: what you're doing is basically a C-style ENUM 2016-10-19T22:51:56Z phoe: which, in Lisp, is often solved by symbols, keywords, or constant variables 2016-10-19T22:52:10Z phoe: but then again 2016-10-19T22:52:24Z phoe: pierpa: constants are often declared as +hello-request+ 2016-10-19T22:52:34Z phoe: to tell them apart from ordinary bars 2016-10-19T22:52:35Z phoe: vars 2016-10-19T22:52:46Z pierpa: yes, just mimicking exactly the example :) 2016-10-19T22:53:03Z phoe: mimicking isn't a good way of thinking. 2016-10-19T22:53:10Z phoe: you don't want to accidentally mimic all of C 2016-10-19T22:53:15Z phoe: :D 2016-10-19T22:53:22Z pierpa: that was also one of the points! 2016-10-19T22:53:28Z sellout-1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-19T22:54:27Z shrdlu68: Can variables be used within literal vectors? I'll have to declare constants for a lot of variables, all of the TLS cipher suites. 2016-10-19T22:54:59Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-19T22:55:02Z pierpa: an example? 2016-10-19T22:55:14Z pikaroo- joined #lisp 2016-10-19T22:55:16Z shrdlu68: My experiments show that if foo=1 and bar=2, you can't do #(foo bar) and get #(1 2) 2016-10-19T22:55:31Z shrdlu68: Which makes sense. 2016-10-19T22:55:52Z shrdlu68: Because it's the reader getting invoked. 2016-10-19T22:56:09Z pikaroo-: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-10-19T22:56:36Z Baggers left #lisp 2016-10-19T22:56:37Z pierpa: you can do `#(,foo ,bar) though. Is this good enough? 2016-10-19T22:57:13Z shrdlu68: pierpa: Yes, that'll do, if it works. 2016-10-19T22:57:42Z pierpa: well, THAT certainly works :) 2016-10-19T22:57:54Z shrdlu68: Hehe, cool. 2016-10-19T22:58:59Z shrdlu68: I didn't know the backquote could be used this way. 2016-10-19T22:59:06Z pierpa: regarding your question, note that now your vector is not a literal vector. 2016-10-19T22:59:27Z pierpa: it is build each time you execute that piece of code 2016-10-19T22:59:44Z shrdlu68: pierpa: That could be a problem. 2016-10-19T23:00:07Z pierpa: you want a vector which is bot a literal and made of variables! :) 2016-10-19T23:00:12Z pierpa: *both 2016-10-19T23:00:30Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-19T23:00:37Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-19T23:01:14Z shrdlu68: I have to group the TLS cipher suites according to their cryptographic primitives. 2016-10-19T23:01:47Z pierpa: why not a simple (vector foo bar) ? 2016-10-19T23:02:30Z jasom: shrdlu68: put it in a global, then it only gets calculated once 2016-10-19T23:02:53Z jasom: (defparameter +aes-cipher-suites+ `#(...)) 2016-10-19T23:03:38Z rpg: beaky: If your functions are *generic* functions, absolutely (see AROUND methods). 2016-10-19T23:03:53Z rpg: If your functions are not generic functions, then you can use DEFADVICE, where available 2016-10-19T23:04:06Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-19T23:04:21Z shrdlu68: jasom: pierpa Yeah that'll do. 2016-10-19T23:04:29Z beaky: wow 2016-10-19T23:05:03Z jasom: beaky: you can redfine functions (with certain limitations), but you can't portably get the source for existing functions. 2016-10-19T23:05:23Z jasom: beaky: but :around methods are the common way of extending these things as rpg says 2016-10-19T23:06:06Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-19T23:06:15Z Marsjan joined #lisp 2016-10-19T23:06:29Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-19T23:07:15Z Marsjan is now known as marsjaninzmarsa 2016-10-19T23:07:16Z rpg: E.g., consider a case where I have a generic function, fn, and a method m for an argument of type t. If there's a type t' that has an obvious map to t, I might write an around method on fn that will take an argument of type t', perform the conversion, then invoke fn on the converted argument. 2016-10-19T23:07:31Z rpg: That's monkey-patching (I suppose) for type coercion. 2016-10-19T23:08:00Z shrdlu68: Now out of curiosity, if one needed to have C-like macros like "#define FOO 1000", how is that kind of simple source-text transformation done in Lisp? 2016-10-19T23:08:38Z pierpa: (defconstant FOO 1000) 2016-10-19T23:08:59Z jasom: shrdlu68: reader-macros can 100% customize how code is read in, someone even implemented a C compiler using those 2016-10-19T23:09:18Z jasom: https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis 2016-10-19T23:09:26Z shrdlu68: pierpa: I thought that would define an immutable variable,rather than do source-test transformation. 2016-10-19T23:09:39Z pierpa: the result is the same 2016-10-19T23:09:57Z pierpa: btw, it defines a 'constant variable' 2016-10-19T23:10:05Z jasom: shrdlu68: there are also symbol-macros 2016-10-19T23:10:26Z jasom: correct, mutating constants is permitted, but setting them is not 2016-10-19T23:10:45Z shrdlu68: Ah. 2016-10-19T23:11:54Z jasom: shrdlu68: https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis/blob/master/compiler/reader.lisp <-- complete implementation of C syntax for the common-lisp reader 2016-10-19T23:12:15Z phoe: shrdlu68: there is no preprocessor in Lisp. 2016-10-19T23:12:26Z phoe: mostly because there's no need for one. 2016-10-19T23:12:41Z phoe: A preprocessor is a solution to a C problem that does not exist in Lisp. 2016-10-19T23:12:47Z shrdlu68: jasom: Let me look up symbol-macros, haven't heard of those. 2016-10-19T23:13:07Z jasom: clhs define-symbol-macro 2016-10-19T23:13:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm 2016-10-19T23:14:04Z psilord joined #lisp 2016-10-19T23:14:53Z jasom: shrdlu68: Just remember, everything in chapter 3 of the hyperspec happens *after* the reader transforms the text into s expressions 2016-10-19T23:15:06Z jasom: clhs 2 2016-10-19T23:15:06Z specbot: Syntax: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_.htm 2016-10-19T23:15:19Z jasom: shrdlu68: and chapter 2 describes how text is transformed into s-expressions 2016-10-19T23:15:47Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-19T23:16:07Z phoe: wait wait 2016-10-19T23:16:21Z phoe: backquote CAN munch on reader macro syntax? 2016-10-19T23:16:27Z phoe: I mean, can it understand vector syntax? 2016-10-19T23:16:31Z jasom: clhs ` 2016-10-19T23:16:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 2016-10-19T23:16:56Z jasom: phoe: " `#(x1 x2 x3 ... xn) may be interpreted to mean (apply #'vector `(x1 x2 x3 ... xn))." 2016-10-19T23:17:31Z jasom: phoe: and "An implementation is free to interpret a backquoted form F1 as any form F2 that, when evaluated, will produce a result that is the same under equal as the result implied by the above definition, provided that the side-effect behavior of the substitute form F2 is also consistent with the description given above." 2016-10-19T23:18:14Z phoe: woo. 2016-10-19T23:18:20Z phoe: TIL! 2016-10-19T23:18:35Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-19T23:20:54Z phoe: I have '`,foo. 2016-10-19T23:21:13Z phoe: (eval '`,foo) ;=> `,foo. 2016-10-19T23:21:16Z phoe: But `,foo as a value. 2016-10-19T23:22:24Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-19T23:22:24Z phoe: wait wait 2016-10-19T23:22:27Z phoe: I mixed it up. 2016-10-19T23:22:56Z phoe: (eval '`,2) gives 2. 2016-10-19T23:24:52Z phoe: One more thing. 2016-10-19T23:25:00Z phoe: (car '`,2) ;=> ,2 2016-10-19T23:25:16Z phoe: Is this specified? 2016-10-19T23:25:25Z apathor_ left #lisp 2016-10-19T23:26:15Z beaky: i love lisp 2016-10-19T23:26:15Z pierpa: phoe: not only arrays, also structures. 2016-10-19T23:26:21Z phoe: pierpa: oh wow 2016-10-19T23:26:23Z phoe: goodness 2016-10-19T23:26:46Z phoe: uh, actually, guys 2016-10-19T23:26:52Z phoe: What should '`,2 evaluate to? 2016-10-19T23:27:10Z shrdlu68: beaky: me too :) 2016-10-19T23:27:35Z pierpa: phoe: why you expect to not be specified? it's the tamest of the forms 2016-10-19T23:28:20Z phoe: pierpa: I don't know what '`,2 should evaluate to. 2016-10-19T23:28:25Z phoe: And whether I can grab the CDR of it. 2016-10-19T23:28:26Z pierpa: 2? 2016-10-19T23:28:36Z phoe: SBCL tells me otherwise. 2016-10-19T23:28:41Z phoe: So does ECL. 2016-10-19T23:28:42Z pierpa: hmmm 2016-10-19T23:29:16Z phoe: * '`,2 2016-10-19T23:29:16Z phoe: (SB-INT:QUASIQUOTE #S(SB-IMPL::COMMA :EXPR 2 :KIND 0)) 2016-10-19T23:29:19Z pierpa: I don't see why should not be allowed 2016-10-19T23:29:35Z phoe: the above is on SBCL 2016-10-19T23:29:39Z phoe: ? '`,2 2016-10-19T23:29:41Z phoe: 2 2016-10-19T23:29:44Z phoe: the above is on CCL 2016-10-19T23:30:07Z fouric: phoe: how are you getting it to print like that? 2016-10-19T23:30:18Z pierpa: it works both in CCL and in SBCL 2016-10-19T23:30:21Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-19T23:30:25Z fouric: setting *PRINT-READABLY* to either t or nil has no effect... 2016-10-19T23:30:37Z pierpa: same in ACL 2016-10-19T23:30:40Z shrdlu68: phoe: CCL isn't quoting, is it? 2016-10-19T23:30:43Z phoe: (setf *print-pretty* nil) 2016-10-19T23:30:55Z fouric: phoe: that's it, thanks! 2016-10-19T23:31:15Z pierpa: the difference probably is due to the fact that CCL compiles everything 2016-10-19T23:31:16Z phoe: the basic question is 2016-10-19T23:31:30Z phoe: should QUOTE halt the evaluation of QUASIQUOTE? 2016-10-19T23:31:35Z pierpa: SBCL, if I remember correctly compiles only comples forms 2016-10-19T23:31:42Z pierpa: *complex 2016-10-19T23:32:03Z joshe quit 2016-10-19T23:32:05Z phoe: oh, wait 2016-10-19T23:32:21Z phoe: should '`,2 evaluate to 2 or to `,2? 2016-10-19T23:32:31Z joshe joined #lisp 2016-10-19T23:32:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-19T23:32:48Z pierpa: both are allowed 2016-10-19T23:33:54Z phoe: I see 2016-10-19T23:34:01Z phoe: well, they're equal 2016-10-19T23:34:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-19T23:34:27Z pierpa: should depend on the amount of compilation performed by the repl? 2016-10-19T23:35:09Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-19T23:35:18Z phoe: but 2016-10-19T23:35:26Z phoe: SBCL also compiles everything by default, I guess 2016-10-19T23:35:36Z Xach: f/win 3 2016-10-19T23:35:40Z jsmith_ quit 2016-10-19T23:35:48Z pierpa: I seem to remember that sbcl starts compiling only when it sees a loop 2016-10-19T23:36:00Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-10-19T23:36:29Z pierpa: this makes it faster to load big files consisting mostly of simple data definitions 2016-10-19T23:36:30Z p_l: pierpa: nope, SBCL tends to compile as soon as the fragment to execute is more than one function execution 2016-10-19T23:36:43Z pierpa: ok, I may be misremembering 2016-10-19T23:36:56Z phoe: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Interpreter 2016-10-19T23:37:00Z ebrasca: phoe: hi 2016-10-19T23:37:03Z phoe: "By default SBCL implements eval by calling the native code compiler." 2016-10-19T23:37:03Z p_l: pierpa: however, note that (define-some-data 1) (define-some-data 2) won't trigger compilation this way 2016-10-19T23:37:04Z phoe: ebrasca: hey 2016-10-19T23:37:12Z p_l: that said, recently the evaluator got revamped 2016-10-19T23:37:54Z p_l: so you can somewhat safely use the form in the link that phoe pasted to use evaluator 2016-10-19T23:38:18Z pierpa: p_l: yes, I was remembering badly 2016-10-19T23:38:30Z p_l: pierpa: it's generally a nice trick :) 2016-10-19T23:38:30Z phoe: p_l: s/evaluator/interpreter/g 2016-10-19T23:38:44Z phoe: I think you mean it 2016-10-19T23:39:12Z p_l: phoe: I'm set in my ways, and evaluator doesn't necessarily mean interpreter ;) 2016-10-19T23:40:15Z phoe: in this case, woop 2016-10-19T23:40:16Z phoe: :P 2016-10-19T23:42:30Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2016-10-19T23:42:44Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-19T23:42:51Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T23:44:34Z shrdlu68 left #lisp 2016-10-19T23:44:49Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-19T23:48:12Z ebrasca: phoe: What is your opinion about my l-system? 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You're not supposed to do loops using recursion. 2016-10-20T03:51:37Z malisper: I know. 2016-10-20T03:51:51Z malisper: There's some people I know who were learning macros. 2016-10-20T03:51:58Z loke: malisper: Then don't. A proper version of that macro would be: 2016-10-20T03:52:09Z malisper: They came up with that piece of code, and thought it worked since it worked when they put it in the repl. 2016-10-20T03:52:14Z Bike: what do you mean "put in a lambda" 2016-10-20T03:52:16Z malisper: We've been trying to figure out why it worked. 2016-10-20T03:52:19Z loke: malisper: (defmacro repeat (n &body body) `(loop repeat ,n do (progn ,@body))) 2016-10-20T03:52:27Z malisper: I know that that's a correct definition. 2016-10-20T03:52:28Z loke: or even: 2016-10-20T03:52:41Z malisper: I'm trying to figure out why the "bad" definition works sometimes. 2016-10-20T03:52:51Z malisper: By put in a lambda I mean (lambda () (repeat ...)) 2016-10-20T03:52:53Z malisper: That will freeze. 2016-10-20T03:53:10Z malisper: But if you do, (repeat ...) directly in the repl, that works the way repeat is supposed to work. 2016-10-20T03:53:22Z malisper: We've been trying to figure out why it acts that way. 2016-10-20T03:53:46Z loke: malisper: Do MACROEXPAND on it and you'll see. 2016-10-20T03:54:23Z Bike: it unconditionally expands into a use of itself, so expanding all the macros in a form just goes forever 2016-10-20T03:54:38Z malisper: I'm wondering why it works when you put it directly in the repl. 2016-10-20T03:55:19Z malisper: i.e. why it works sometimes, even though it shouldn't. 2016-10-20T03:55:21Z Bike: if there's an interpreter it just starts going before expanding everything. 2016-10-20T03:55:51Z malisper: I thought that wasn't true for sbcl. 2016-10-20T03:55:58Z Bike: yes, so did i, i'm a bit surprised. 2016-10-20T03:56:18Z Bike: might be because it doesn't do any bindings. 2016-10-20T03:57:02Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-20T03:58:04Z Bike: yeah, looks like sbcl's eval does handle IF without giving up and going for the compiler 2016-10-20T03:58:33Z malisper: Now, that I'm looking at it, I think swank uses `eval`. 2016-10-20T03:58:59Z Bike: yes. eval on sbcl ends up calling simple-eval-in-lexenv. you can take a look at it, it handles a few special operators and basic function calls. 2016-10-20T04:00:39Z malisper: nvm, I thought that went to the interpreter. 2016-10-20T04:00:50Z malisper: Unless it does somewhere else. 2016-10-20T04:00:57Z Bike: What? 2016-10-20T04:01:32Z malisper: I can't tell if `eval-in-lexenv` goes to the interpreter or not. 2016-10-20T04:02:40Z Bike: it... is the interpreter. i don't know what you mean. 2016-10-20T04:03:04Z malisper: Ah, I didn't realize that. 2016-10-20T04:04:00Z malisper: So `eval` goes through an interpreter. 2016-10-20T04:04:02Z malisper: ? 2016-10-20T04:05:50Z Bike: yeah. on sbcl when you call eval it tries to pick off easy cases with simple-eval-in-lexenv, and then if it's too complicated it uses the compiler. 2016-10-20T04:07:04Z malisper: I see. Thanks for the help. 2016-10-20T04:09:09Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-20T04:19:06Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-20T04:25:32Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T04:30:40Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T04:41:12Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-20T04:43:04Z bandu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-20T04:43:43Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T04:44:06Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-20T04:46:41Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T04:53:27Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-20T04:57:40Z malisper left #lisp 2016-10-20T05:02:46Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-20T05:02:57Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-20T05:03:44Z beach: I was convinced that I had read somewhere that INITIALIZE-INSTANCE is not supposed to be called directly. Did I make that up? Or is it perhaps in the MOP? 2016-10-20T05:06:57Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-20T05:10:33Z xristos quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-20T05:12:44Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T05:13:29Z loke: Hello beach 2016-10-20T05:13:48Z beach: Hey loke. 2016-10-20T05:14:17Z beach: I understand you are thinking of going to ELS 2017. 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()) for that? 2016-10-20T16:45:51Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-20T16:46:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T16:46:17Z daniel-s quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-20T16:46:33Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-20T16:46:56Z flip214_: never mind, got it working. 2016-10-20T16:48:03Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-20T16:48:16Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-20T16:49:34Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-20T16:49:53Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-20T16:54:21Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-20T16:56:57Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-10-20T16:57:22Z daniel-s quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T16:57:37Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-20T16:57:55Z ebrasca: phoe: hi 2016-10-20T16:59:13Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-20T17:03:00Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T17:03:57Z Guest26 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-20T17:06:31Z wz1000 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-20T17:07:03Z m00natic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T17:07:29Z Xach: slyrus: I am on the verge of a new quicklisp - how is postmodern going? 2016-10-20T17:08:18Z heurist joined #lisp 2016-10-20T17:10:03Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-20T17:10:12Z kcodrgkimd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T17:10:28Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-20T17:11:17Z heurist__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-20T17:21:15Z Grue`: is postmodern still actively developed? any chance of looking at this issue? https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/issues/70 2016-10-20T17:23:30Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-20T17:23:47Z yoosi joined #lisp 2016-10-20T17:24:20Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-20T17:24:24Z beaky: i love postmodern 2016-10-20T17:25:55Z Grue`: i love it too, but I have to use a 2 year old version of it because of my unlucky db schema 2016-10-20T17:26:34Z beaky: seems postmodern development is alive and kicking https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/issues/90 they're about to fix something ive just encountered rite now \o/! 2016-10-20T17:26:44Z beaky: aww 2016-10-20T17:28:25Z beaky: hmm how do you use older versions of quicklisp libs btw 2016-10-20T17:28:59Z Xach: beaky: you can go back to older quicklisp dists, or copy old archives into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/. There are other options too. 2016-10-20T17:29:05Z beaky: a 2016-10-20T17:32:52Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T17:32:55Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-20T17:33:00Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-20T17:33:16Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-20T17:35:26Z yoosi left #lisp 2016-10-20T17:40:10Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-10-20T17:40:12Z seg joined #lisp 2016-10-20T17:41:46Z Ven__ joined #lisp 2016-10-20T17:42:07Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T17:43:01Z a--m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T17:47:57Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-20T17:48:53Z _sjs quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2016-10-20T17:56:34Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-20T17:56:36Z Ven__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T18:03:49Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:06:35Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:06:37Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:08:16Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T18:08:33Z mountpoint joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:10:53Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-20T18:11:34Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:12:09Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:14:37Z Indecipherable quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/rWAnqP3.jpg) 2016-10-20T18:16:36Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-20T18:16:45Z ebrasca: phoe: ping 2016-10-20T18:19:51Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T18:19:52Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:20:02Z beaky: hello 2016-10-20T18:20:11Z beaky: is there something like clojure's core.spec in common lisp 2016-10-20T18:20:15Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:20:32Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-20T18:20:54Z Xach: beaky: what does core.spec do? 2016-10-20T18:22:03Z beaky: it lets you write up schemas for your data and lets you apply them to verify stuff 2016-10-20T18:22:27Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T18:22:32Z Xach: No, there isn't anything like that. 2016-10-20T18:22:56Z beaky: (and when the data doesn't conform it spits out the failing predicates) 2016-10-20T18:22:58Z beaky: oh :< 2016-10-20T18:23:35Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:23:57Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:26:04Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T18:28:20Z beaky: hmm i guess theres not much use of such a thing in common lisp (thanks to clos, inspector, type declarations, etc.) whereas in clojure its the Clojure Way to pass around mapaes eveyrwhere as the ultimate data type 2016-10-20T18:28:58Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Me voy) 2016-10-20T18:30:25Z mordocai: beaky: Yeah. Clojure is also the only language I know of with something like clojure.spec. AFAIK it is pioneering it, so don't expect to see it elsewhere 2016-10-20T18:30:41Z mordocai: Though it would be perfectly possible to add to common lisp with custom macros 2016-10-20T18:32:03Z beaky: i love rich hickey 2016-10-20T18:34:33Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:35:33Z Xach: I fondly remember the talk he gave on clojure to a hostile (at first) Boston Lisp Meeting crowd 2016-10-20T18:36:11Z Xach: He won everyone over because it was clear that the design decisions were rooted in good knowledge of history and precedent. 2016-10-20T18:36:51Z Xach: was it 2008? how time flies. 2016-10-20T18:38:32Z beaky: yes love all his talks too; he brings in seemingly-novel ideas yet always manages to explain them in a way that reveals their tried-and-tested conceptual foundation that leaves you nodding in favor 2016-10-20T18:40:42Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-20T18:40:49Z mountpoint quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-20T18:46:08Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:47:35Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:50:09Z JuanDaugherty: were you won over Xach? in a lasting way? 2016-10-20T18:50:54Z beaky: (and so far i guess there's no obvious conceptual blunders in clojure? (apart from the warts inhereted from the jvm)) 2016-10-20T18:50:58Z XachX_: I was convinced it was not a crock even if it wasn't for me. 2016-10-20T18:51:11Z JuanDaugherty: thank god 2016-10-20T18:51:42Z JuanDaugherty never thought it was a crock 2016-10-20T18:51:58Z JuanDaugherty: just a bad idea 2016-10-20T18:53:54Z dwc: JuanDaugherty: is it a bad idea if you're stuck in jvm-land? 2016-10-20T18:53:59Z PuercoPop: mordocai: I remember the spec announcement citing prior art. It is certainly interesting. Clojure had a prismatic/schema before spec so there was a clear need. In Python there is a need as well when people take the everything is a dictionary approach (and there are a couple of libraries to verify schemas) 2016-10-20T18:54:05Z beaky: idk i think clojure's overall mostly good ideas (particularly its standard collections and its concurrency approach) 2016-10-20T18:54:13Z JuanDaugherty: dwc yeah if you're trynna be a lisp 2016-10-20T18:54:20Z drot quit (Quit: Quit) 2016-10-20T18:54:44Z PuercoPop: beaky: its quasiquote is also a good idea. The maps being funcallable as well 2016-10-20T18:56:02Z beaky: ye im glad rich hickey thought that stuff through well enough :DD 2016-10-20T18:56:41Z beaky: (tho the "everything-as-a-dictionary" approach can feel a little dubious imo) 2016-10-20T18:57:44Z mountpoint joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:58:03Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-10-20T18:58:28Z PuercoPop: beaky: its is, Clojure has records, Python has classes 2016-10-20T19:00:35Z younder: CLOS is a language in it's own rights though 2016-10-20T19:01:01Z younder: Complex and powerful 2016-10-20T19:02:21Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:02:47Z PuercoPop: speaking of spec, I should try out the quickcheck clones in CL sometime 2016-10-20T19:02:58Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-20T19:03:02Z younder: The best book is 'Object Orented Programming in Common Lisp' by Sonya E. Keene 2016-10-20T19:03:23Z younder: last I checked 2016-10-20T19:03:36Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-20T19:03:41Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T19:04:11Z younder: Of course there is that Seibel book PCL 2016-10-20T19:05:55Z beaky: hmm i wonder if seibel lurks here on irc 2016-10-20T19:06:54Z ebrasca: Hi 2016-10-20T19:07:16Z younder: as far as I can tell no, he used to be *monkey 2016-10-20T19:07:25Z beaky: ello ebrasca 2016-10-20T19:07:36Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:07:51Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:07:52Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:07:54Z earl-ducaine__ joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:08:03Z beaky: yes ive learned so much from seibel's book, his other book (coders at work), and erik naggum's replies to him on comp.lang.lisp :D 2016-10-20T19:08:09Z le4fy joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:08:27Z ebrasca: How I can pass from &rest in function to &body in macro? 2016-10-20T19:08:55Z le4fy: is there a quick way to test if a hash table is empty? using (hash-table-count) seems inefficient 2016-10-20T19:08:56Z younder: lol Erik Naggum was a tough nail. 2016-10-20T19:09:30Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:10:02Z PuercoPop: ebrasca: wraping it a lambda and apply it? 2016-10-20T19:10:21Z younder: might as well EN it RTFM! 2016-10-20T19:10:52Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T19:11:00Z younder: ;) 2016-10-20T19:11:06Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:12:29Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: what? 2016-10-20T19:12:37Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:12:47Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:13:07Z Xach: le4fy: That way is fine. 2016-10-20T19:15:37Z le4fy: Xach: isn't it a linear operation in the number of keys? which seems not great if most of the time the table will not be empty 2016-10-20T19:17:00Z dwc: if you are often asking if a hash table is empty, you may want something else 2016-10-20T19:17:11Z younder: hash tables aren't ment to be empty. Perhaps you are using the wrong abstraction. PList's perhaps 2016-10-20T19:18:23Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-20T19:18:48Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-20T19:19:15Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-20T19:19:16Z le4fy: ok, good point. I'll think about whether something else would be a better abstraction 2016-10-20T19:19:17Z le4fy: thanks 2016-10-20T19:19:41Z ebrasca: http://pastebin.com/JpJ36MPx 2016-10-20T19:20:47Z PuercoPop: ebrasca: if instead of a macro it was a function you could do (apply f arg1 arg2 rest). So I'm thinking to wrap the macro in a lambda and call it. Do you have the code at hand? 2016-10-20T19:21:05Z beaky: isnt hash-table-count O(1) anyway. screaming fast slot access 2016-10-20T19:21:26Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: http://pastebin.com/JpJ36MPx 2016-10-20T19:21:31Z XachX_: le4fy: no it is not. 2016-10-20T19:24:41Z younder: XachX_, explain 2016-10-20T19:25:10Z flip214_: Is there some example of a CLOS base class that implements js-like behaviour, ie. uses a dict to store all "attributes" and allows setting/querying of arbitrary "slots"? 2016-10-20T19:25:30Z Bike: flip214_: cl json has a metaclass for it, i think. fluid-class. 2016-10-20T19:25:58Z younder: le4fy, https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node108.html 2016-10-20T19:26:00Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-20T19:26:21Z flip214_: Bike: thank you very much, looking that up 2016-10-20T19:27:08Z jasom: le4fy: most implementations of hash-tables keep track of the number of items, so it's O(1) to check the count. 2016-10-20T19:27:21Z le4fy: ah, that's cool then 2016-10-20T19:27:44Z jasom: younder: "hash tables aren't meant to be empty."? First I've ever heard of that. 2016-10-20T19:27:45Z younder: Some here sy less than 7 elements. I say less than 100 elements. PList's are fine 2016-10-20T19:28:09Z dwc: I am still curious why you need to know (often) if the hash is empty 2016-10-20T19:28:10Z drot joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:28:25Z flip214_: Bike: is there some way to make (MAKE-INSTANCE 'fluid-class :arg1 1 :arg2 2 ...) create these named slots as well? 2016-10-20T19:28:26Z beaky: flip214_ this one adds prototype oop to lisp too https://github.com/zkat/sheeple haven't played aroudn with it enough tho 2016-10-20T19:28:31Z jasom: plists do not let you compare based on anything other than identity, meaning you can't even use characters as keys 2016-10-20T19:28:48Z Bike: flip214_: i haven't used that part of cl json at all. 2016-10-20T19:29:01Z flip214_: beaky: thanks, reading. but the first paragraph makes me say "BINGO" already ;) 2016-10-20T19:29:04Z flip214_: Bike: never mind 2016-10-20T19:29:25Z le4fy: dwc: I'm writing A* and keeping the frontier in a hash table. So when the frontier is empty the looping stops as there is no solution 2016-10-20T19:29:29Z younder: If you have few element's and you are often empty PLists. Quicker and more efficient than hashes 2016-10-20T19:30:01Z jasom: younder: and you need to write your own if you want to test with anything other than eq 2016-10-20T19:30:14Z flip214_: the sykosomatic certificate expired 2 years ago. 2016-10-20T19:30:16Z jasom: hash tables are there already and efficient enough 2016-10-20T19:30:22Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: Are you here? 2016-10-20T19:30:49Z PuercoPop: ebrasca: Well my initial approach seems inappropriate as you would be using a macro to write a lambda then wraping it in a lambda to call it, you could move the macro to a symbol macro like this http://paste.lisp.org/+71Y3. I haven't really used symbol macrolet so I don't know if this works 2016-10-20T19:31:42Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-20T19:31:50Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-20T19:32:11Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:32:13Z PuercoPop: so the symbol macro would replace make-l-system-lambda with the lambda form. However it takes no parameters so you depend on the scope providing vars and rest 2016-10-20T19:32:27Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:33:02Z jasom: ebrasca: lets take a step back; what are you trying to do? 2016-10-20T19:33:08Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:34:01Z jasom: ebrasca: if the function is being called at macroexpand time, then don't use a macro at all (rewrite the macro as a function so you can apply) if the function is being called at runtime, then you can't do it without eval, and if you're using eval you're doing it wrong. 2016-10-20T19:35:15Z younder: three times for macro-expansion, read, code and compile 2016-10-20T19:35:48Z jasom: ebrasca: when doing metaprogramming, I find it is useful to start with the code you hope to be able to write when you are done; if you can pastebin *that* then we can tell you how to accomplish it. 2016-10-20T19:36:01Z younder: so.. a readmacro a macro or a compile-macro 2016-10-20T19:36:10Z younder: simple 2016-10-20T19:36:30Z ebrasca: jasom: ok I going paste it. 2016-10-20T19:37:21Z jasom: younder: when used in isolation, "macroexpand time" refers to expansions of macro forms, not reader macros or compiler macros 2016-10-20T19:37:49Z younder: jasom, yes 2016-10-20T19:38:13Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:38:40Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:42:42Z ebrasca: jasom: Here http://pastebin.com/RBbhJAtQ 2016-10-20T19:43:56Z ebrasca: jasom: It is like where from PCL. 2016-10-20T19:44:21Z e quit (Quit: edk) 2016-10-20T19:44:23Z younder: this dude seems bad (defmacro make-l-system-lamda (vars &body body) 2016-10-20T19:44:23Z younder: `#'(lambda ,vars (list ,@(make-l-system-list body)))) 2016-10-20T19:45:17Z jasom: ebrasca: -> cannot be a function if you want it to be invoked the way you show 2016-10-20T19:45:19Z younder: never treet macro params as thoug they were vars 2016-10-20T19:45:35Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T19:46:01Z younder: Thaey are LITTERALY expanded as they are 2016-10-20T19:46:13Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:46:42Z jasom: younder: I see nothing wrong with that part of it; each parameter is expanded exactly once and used in an appropriate place 2016-10-20T19:47:10Z younder: It's the pronciple 2016-10-20T19:47:17Z younder: principle 2016-10-20T19:47:46Z warweasle quit (Quit: bye) 2016-10-20T19:48:18Z younder: I'ts a recipe for disaster 2016-10-20T19:48:19Z jasom: ebrasca: to expand on what I'm saying: assuming that "->" is a function then (-> f () (f 1)) is roughly equvalent to (let ((x1 f) x2 (x3 (f 1))) (-> x1 x2 x3) which doesn't appear to be what you want 2016-10-20T19:48:29Z jasom: younder: I disagree 2016-10-20T19:48:59Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:49:22Z younder: extra () 2016-10-20T19:50:11Z jasom: younder: you mean I had a ) in the wrong place? I agree that it should be ...(f 1)) (-> x1 x2 x3)) 2016-10-20T19:50:31Z jasom: oh wait no I just was missing the ) 2016-10-20T19:50:38Z younder: right that's what I mean 2016-10-20T19:50:41Z jasom: ...(f 1))) (-> x1 x2 x3)) 2016-10-20T19:50:54Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-20T19:54:16Z jasom: ebrasca: given that I'm still not understanding the goal of -> it seems reasonable that changing it to a macro that expands to something like `(make-l-system-lambda vars ,@rest) should work 2016-10-20T19:54:49Z jasom: ebrasca: but you need to ensure that *l-system-clauses* exists before macroexpand time, so it ought to be either in a previously loaded .lisp file or in an eval-when construct 2016-10-20T19:55:29Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:55:38Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:56:15Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:56:34Z ebrasca: jasom: It exist with :test 'eq. 2016-10-20T19:56:42Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-20T19:56:47Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-20T19:56:47Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-20T19:57:05Z younder: eq is normally fine. The same address 2016-10-20T19:57:42Z younder: EqualP is insanely expensive 2016-10-20T19:58:17Z ebrasca: younder: Is not "eq" for symbols? 2016-10-20T19:58:26Z younder: yes 2016-10-20T19:58:27Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T19:58:43Z jasom: ebrasca: worry not about younder's non-sequiturs 2016-10-20T19:59:38Z younder: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node75.html 2016-10-20T20:00:00Z younder: if you want the spec 2016-10-20T20:00:39Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-20T20:00:49Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T20:00:55Z jasom: if by "spec" you mean an out-of-date snapshot of the currrent state of the ANSI process in 1990 2016-10-20T20:01:06Z jasom: clhs eq 2016-10-20T20:01:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm 2016-10-20T20:01:30Z younder: yes, since that particular bit hsn't changed.. DUH 2016-10-20T20:01:51Z younder: why would it 2016-10-20T20:02:30Z younder: well jasom find any diffferences? 2016-10-20T20:03:09Z le4fy quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-20T20:03:15Z jasom: younder: considering you were talking about eq, but linked to and/or/not, yes 2016-10-20T20:03:24Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:03:37Z foom joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:03:47Z younder: eq is addr = addr 2016-10-20T20:03:58Z younder: agreed 2016-10-20T20:04:41Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:04:51Z younder: eql is equal for numbers as well 2016-10-20T20:04:58Z jasom: younder: nope; it is *usually* that, but not specified that way (even according to CLtL2 2016-10-20T20:05:20Z younder: equal is character by characer comparison 2016-10-20T20:05:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:05:30Z jasom: with a concurrent GC, for example the addresses might be different if one had been updated and the other not 2016-10-20T20:05:37Z younder: and eqyalp disregards case 2016-10-20T20:05:45Z younder: equalp 2016-10-20T20:06:03Z younder: I think that about sums it up 2016-10-20T20:06:13Z jasom: younder: you forgot vectors and lists 2016-10-20T20:06:51Z jasom: equal descends into lists and strings, equalp descends into all arrays in addition to what equal does 2016-10-20T20:07:11Z jasom: on and hash tables and structures 2016-10-20T20:07:17Z younder: a string is a 'vector' in CL 2016-10-20T20:07:35Z jasom: younder: no it is a subtype of vector 2016-10-20T20:07:46Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:07:54Z younder: a subtype of vector 2016-10-20T20:07:56Z jasom: younder: equal only descends into strings, not non-string vectors 2016-10-20T20:08:16Z younder: yes, only strings 2016-10-20T20:08:46Z _death: both of you are wrong.. why try to reiterate stuff that's so clearly specified in the clhs 2016-10-20T20:09:05Z younder: krikey you are making this convolute 2016-10-20T20:09:15Z younder: ++d 2016-10-20T20:09:26Z nullman joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:09:40Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:10:09Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-20T20:10:13Z younder: Agreed the CLHS is the kink, but a bit of commen sence is good too 2016-10-20T20:10:27Z younder: sigh 2016-10-20T20:10:39Z Xach: Time to go away again for another three years. 2016-10-20T20:10:54Z younder: You are banning me again? 2016-10-20T20:11:06Z younder: fine 2016-10-20T20:11:22Z younder: I mstly program in hHaskell these days 2016-10-20T20:12:24Z younder: I DO love Lisp. You on the other hand.. Well whatever 2016-10-20T20:14:46Z otjura joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:14:56Z younder: You have gotten yourself in a position where you can ban me whenever you want. You are there so 'ban me'. 2016-10-20T20:15:32Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T20:15:40Z otjura: quick question. how do I get number like this: 1.0000002e-11 to show as pure float without e-11 ending? 2016-10-20T20:15:41Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:15:46Z younder: for what it's worth 'I don't like you much either' You are to stiff and pedantic 2016-10-20T20:15:52Z otjura: like 0.0000000000012 2016-10-20T20:16:09Z flip214_: can somebody explain me why this macroexpand clause shows `(,"BLUR") instead of `("BLUR")? http://paste.lisp.org/display/329118 2016-10-20T20:16:17Z flip214_: Ie. why the unquote is in there. 2016-10-20T20:16:29Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:16:40Z otjura: oh wait it's 2e-11 ending, so just show it like 0.00000000001 2016-10-20T20:17:18Z Posterdati quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T20:17:36Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:17:37Z _death: clhs ~F 2016-10-20T20:17:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cca.htm 2016-10-20T20:17:43Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:17:45Z Bike: flip214_: because you put two commas, i guess. 2016-10-20T20:18:06Z Bike: flip214_: for a simple case like that i'd just write (bar (list ,(symbol-name name))) if i was you. 2016-10-20T20:18:26Z flip214_: Bike: that's a simplified example, the string comes out of another function. 2016-10-20T20:18:45Z flip214_: but there are two backquotes, so I need two commas to interpolate at macro run time. 2016-10-20T20:18:50Z flip214_: why is a comma retained? 2016-10-20T20:19:15Z ebrasca: flip214_: (bar ,(list (symbol-name name)) 2016-10-20T20:19:55Z Bike: actually i guess you could just do (bar '(,(symbol-name name))), you don't actually need the inner backquote. 2016-10-20T20:20:07Z beaky: otjura: the ~f in FORMAT can render it like a float like that https://ideone.com/hm6d3o you can also play around with the params in specbot's link to control e.g. sign display, padding, etc 2016-10-20T20:20:13Z younder: no you don' 2016-10-20T20:20:20Z Bike: as for why it's there, i mean... it expands into a backquote form. the first comma only unquotes when that backquote happens, so to speak 2016-10-20T20:20:24Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:20:34Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-20T20:20:40Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:20:42Z otjura: ahh, format old friend 2016-10-20T20:21:18Z flip214_: well, how would I achieve (DEFUN BLUR (ARG) (BAR `("BLUR"))) or is that even non-sensical? 2016-10-20T20:21:24Z younder: you might wanna look at this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/267862/what-makes-lisp-macros-so-special 2016-10-20T20:21:46Z Bike: flip214_: why would you want a backquote instead of a quote there? for your less simple actual code? 2016-10-20T20:22:12Z flip214_: younder: I know _why_ they're so nice. I'm just confused here. 2016-10-20T20:22:22Z younder: Macroes are indeed what makes Lisp special 2016-10-20T20:22:36Z flip214_: Bike: because actually other arguments in the _inner_ backquote form get computed at runtime. 2016-10-20T20:22:52Z flip214_: (DEFUN BLUR (ARG) (BAR `("BLUR" ,(incf *global*)))) 2016-10-20T20:22:58Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:22:59Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:23:01Z flip214_: as a quick, bad example 2016-10-20T20:23:26Z flip214_: of course I can rewrite the inner backquote via LIST, but what would be the fun of that? 2016-10-20T20:23:27Z younder: wery bad. 2016-10-20T20:23:40Z otjura: pretty sure the result is erronous: CL-USER> (format t "~f" (expt 0.1 11)) ==> 0.000000000010000002 2016-10-20T20:23:45Z ebrasca: younder: Is think it is read. I have read you can write macro over read. 2016-10-20T20:23:55Z Bike: otjura: floating point in action, baby 2016-10-20T20:23:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:24:22Z Bike: flip214_: multiple backquotes really aren't worth the complication, as far as i'm concerned. 2016-10-20T20:24:24Z younder: ebrasca, yes. But that is a very bad idea 2016-10-20T20:24:51Z Bike: flip214_: i think you'll be stuck with `(,"string" ...). if string is not, in fact, a literal, you can use `(,',(whatever) ...) to avoid it being evaluated again. 2016-10-20T20:24:55Z younder: It produces unreadable code 2016-10-20T20:25:09Z flip214_: Bike: thanks for the patience. 2016-10-20T20:25:18Z _death: otjura: your interpretation of the result is in error 2016-10-20T20:25:41Z flip214_: I just stumbled upon this piece of genuinely double-backquoted, and thought I'd explore it a bit... 2016-10-20T20:26:00Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:26:06Z younder: I appreciate boldness, but good style it is NOT 2016-10-20T20:26:24Z flip214_: younder: did you ever read LET OVER LAMBDA? 2016-10-20T20:26:38Z cgore joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:26:39Z otjura: pretty sure I can prove with mathematical induction that there should never be 2 anywhere in result, _death 2016-10-20T20:26:50Z younder: flip214_, yes, ages ago 2016-10-20T20:27:05Z flip214_ is now known as flip214 2016-10-20T20:27:06Z otjura: but I'm curious, why does it do that 2016-10-20T20:27:15Z megalography joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:27:21Z Bike: otjura: floating point is not exact (or rather, floating point numbers can be thought of as representing ranges rather than exact numbers). stuff like this happens. 2016-10-20T20:27:31Z otjura: hmm 2016-10-20T20:27:49Z Bike: i think http://floating-point-gui.de/ is the thing to link now. 2016-10-20T20:27:52Z _death: otjura: please prove it then, after understanding floating point 2016-10-20T20:27:55Z younder: floatingpoint floats it is inaccurate.. 2016-10-20T20:28:03Z yeticry quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-20T20:28:17Z Bike: doing exact real arithmetic is not possible on a computer. shame, huh. 2016-10-20T20:28:30Z Bike: if you want an exact result for that particular form you can do (expt 1/10 11), though. 2016-10-20T20:28:34Z beaky: yes give rationals a try for exact arithmetic? 2016-10-20T20:28:38Z younder: deal with it with numerical analysis. whining doen't help 2016-10-20T20:28:38Z _death: otjura: a value like 0.1 cannot be represented accurately using floating point 2016-10-20T20:28:54Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:29:07Z otjura: Bike: thanks for link, gonna read it right now 2016-10-20T20:29:34Z younder: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-330-introduction-to-numerical-analysis-spring-2012/ 2016-10-20T20:29:46Z Bike: "or, you can take an entire course on numerical analysis" 2016-10-20T20:30:08Z younder: it is not as dry as it sounds, in fact it is rather cool 2016-10-20T20:30:18Z Bike: it is, but it's not going to cover floating point. 2016-10-20T20:30:20Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:30:58Z Bike: not directly anyway. i see it has a couple lectures on ODEs, i wonder if it does matrix exponentiation, where numerical analysts go to die 2016-10-20T20:31:01Z _death: Bike: that's a nice site.. I've not seen it before 2016-10-20T20:31:17Z younder: all numerical analysis covers floating point 2016-10-20T20:31:26Z younder: get a grip 2016-10-20T20:31:31Z Bike: _death: it's the new thing that comes up on google instead of goldberg's "What every computer scientist should know about floating-point arithmetic" 2016-10-20T20:31:33Z beaky: hmm was it erik naggum that also ranted about the lack of hardware-based decimal types? (i guess he only ranted on datetime)) 2016-10-20T20:31:49Z Bike: which is what one used to link 2016-10-20T20:32:12Z younder: beaky, No he rand\ted abou a lot of things 2016-10-20T20:32:14Z _death: Bike: right.. often linked, not so often read 2016-10-20T20:32:18Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-20T20:32:21Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:32:24Z Xach: Hmm, is there a function that is equivalent to (apply #'values list)? 2016-10-20T20:32:29Z Bike: younder: i'm just looking through the lecture notes. it's math. you don't need to be hostile about it. 2016-10-20T20:32:33Z Xach: I remember using one but the dictionary is failing me. 2016-10-20T20:32:35Z _death: Xach: values-list? 2016-10-20T20:32:35Z Bike: Xach: values-list? 2016-10-20T20:32:41Z jcowan joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:32:53Z Xach: Thanks. 2016-10-20T20:33:11Z Xach: I parsed the description wrong. 2016-10-20T20:33:20Z jcowan: I'm curious whether anyone uses complex types other than complex float types. 2016-10-20T20:33:22Z Bike: yeah i confuse it with multiple-values-list sometimes. 2016-10-20T20:33:46Z Xach: Bike: i do that every single time and have to look it up every single time. this time i just couldn't figure it out. 2016-10-20T20:33:51Z Bike: heh. 2016-10-20T20:33:52Z _death: jcowan: they can be used for representing 2d coordinates for example 2016-10-20T20:34:03Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:34:20Z younder: I've used common-lisp for modeling chemical reactions. if that is interesting 2016-10-20T20:34:30Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:34:48Z jcowan: _death: So those would be complex (Gaussian) integers, or complex rational, or what? 2016-10-20T20:35:37Z _death: jcowan: depends on your application 2016-10-20T20:35:51Z jcowan: Sure, but which use case did you have in mind? 2016-10-20T20:36:02Z younder: jcowan, numbers are numbers, they are paired, they are no, what's the difference? 2016-10-20T20:37:23Z _death: jcowan: maybe the use cases I've seen used floats, I'm not sure 2016-10-20T20:37:42Z jcowan: The whole point of the complex type is to do complex numerical operations on it that can't be done (easily) on pairs of rational numbers. Most use cases I'm familiar with from other languages are about complex float types, and that's all that C, C++, Fortran, Python, etc. provide. 2016-10-20T20:38:05Z Bike: if you're doing a discrete lattice gaussian integers are nice enough. 2016-10-20T20:38:19Z Bike: you get abs and phase simply. not that that's hard to do yourself with pairs, obvs. 2016-10-20T20:38:19Z younder: without the category and toplogy we are blind. blind i say. we can't know what type to expect next 2016-10-20T20:39:29Z ebrasca: I have fix my problem. 2016-10-20T20:39:48Z ebrasca: Thanks you. 2016-10-20T20:40:21Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:40:58Z jcowan: Bike: good points 2016-10-20T20:42:15Z jcowan: Per WP, Scheme and CL are the only languages that provide support for non-float complex numbers, and in Scheme it's optional. 2016-10-20T20:42:57Z _death: what is WP?.. C++ for example also provides support for complexes 2016-10-20T20:43:41Z beaky: interesting that erik naggum talks about himself writing lisp programs that compile to c++; is there any more literature on this kind of approach? 2016-10-20T20:43:47Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:43:54Z beaky: s/compile to/generate/ 2016-10-20T20:44:10Z jasom: beaky: huge amount of literature on machine generated code in general 2016-10-20T20:44:11Z _death: jcowan: although I see now that it's undefined for nonfloats.. so may be right 2016-10-20T20:45:01Z beaky: haha i guess naggum's approach isnt so unprecedented then 2016-10-20T20:45:12Z younder: nop 2016-10-20T20:45:48Z younder: But in his day it was revolutionary 2016-10-20T20:46:11Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:46:16Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:46:21Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T20:46:25Z jcowan: WP = Wikipedia 2016-10-20T20:46:47Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:46:49Z Bike: lisp's complex number handling is actually partly based on "Principal Values and Branch Cuts in Complex APL", though i dono't know if that stuff is actually IN apl 2016-10-20T20:46:52Z jcowan: C++ has complex numbers, but they are (in CL terms) of type (complex double-float) only 2016-10-20T20:47:04Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T20:47:08Z _death: jcowan: single-float as well 2016-10-20T20:47:11Z beaky: wow i didnt know lisp had APL heritage 2016-10-20T20:47:13Z jcowan: okay 2016-10-20T20:47:14Z Bike: later that and lisp's ended up as a language independent IEEE-or-something standard that nobody uses 2016-10-20T20:47:24Z jcowan chuckles 2016-10-20T20:47:39Z Bike: can't remember the name for the life of me 2016-10-20T20:47:45Z younder: Bike, That's the spirit! 2016-10-20T20:47:46Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T20:48:31Z Bike: did you know the clhs has a bibliography, because it totes does http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/01_c.htm 2016-10-20T20:49:17Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:49:56Z Bike: heeeeere it is. ISO/IEC 10967. 2016-10-20T20:50:05Z frodef joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:51:16Z frodef: hello 2016-10-20T20:51:48Z younder: Here is the rule to get you bannned F*** the standard. Delevop what is cool 2016-10-20T20:53:00Z jcowan looks at part 3 2016-10-20T20:53:42Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:54:08Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:54:20Z frodef: does anyone have a pointer to something describing "best practice" on how to set up a project with sbcl? 2016-10-20T20:54:37Z frodef: (or CL in general) 2016-10-20T20:54:47Z younder: ADSF spec? 2016-10-20T20:55:17Z mood: It basically comes down to having a .asd file, I think. The rest is preference 2016-10-20T20:55:39Z _death: frodef: I'm not familiar with a "best practice", but I like to use package-inferred-systems nowadays 2016-10-20T20:55:55Z mood: Though I would seriously suggest putting the actual source files in a 'src' directory as a good first step 2016-10-20T20:56:06Z mood: or second step, if you will 2016-10-20T20:57:57Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T20:58:09Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:58:14Z younder: _death, Perhaps you are familiar with TH practical Common Lisp book by Peter Seibel. This might be a good time to be reacquainted 2016-10-20T20:58:29Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:59:23Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-10-20T20:59:25Z jcowan: It looks like ISO 10967 only deals with fixed-size integer and float types and complex versions of those, though it does not prescribe how many such types an implementation must have. Bignums and ratios aren't part of it. 2016-10-20T20:59:51Z younder: jcowan, you are right 2016-10-20T21:00:34Z younder: jcowan, go totally texas over the spec 2016-10-20T21:01:02Z jcowan: As the spec editor, that isn't an option. :-) 2016-10-20T21:01:44Z ebrasca: frodef: http://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/ 2016-10-20T21:01:52Z younder: jcowan, a NEW Lisp spec? you gata be kidding? 2016-10-20T21:02:13Z jcowan: No, a new Scheme spec. 2016-10-20T21:02:23Z younder: so you F*** with it or you are toast 2016-10-20T21:03:08Z frodef: ebrasca: thanks! 2016-10-20T21:03:14Z younder: What's the scheeme? 2016-10-20T21:03:48Z jcowan scratches head 2016-10-20T21:03:50Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-20T21:04:47Z jcowan: The previous Scheme spec, R6RS, requires support for at least one complex float type, but does not require other complex types. The question I'm dealing with is whether to change that. Most implementations allow complex numbers like 1+2i, but some convert that to 1.0+2.0i. 2016-10-20T21:04:48Z younder: I use (wispers DrRacket) 2016-10-20T21:04:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-20T21:04:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-20T21:04:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-20T21:06:22Z jcowan: Racket supports 1+2i and 1.0+2.0i, but 1+2.0i (or 1.0+2i) is changed to 1.0+2.0i 2016-10-20T21:06:29Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-20T21:07:13Z jcowan: This is also true of all open source CL implementations except CLISP. 2016-10-20T21:07:24Z jcowan: where all four are distinct in the sense of EQL 2016-10-20T21:08:48Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-20T21:09:01Z warweasle quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T21:09:33Z aeth: In case anyone's wondering about how to test that in CL, just see what's returned with this line: #C(1 2.0) 2016-10-20T21:10:21Z younder: too compex for me ;) 2016-10-20T21:10:21Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-20T21:11:18Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-20T21:11:30Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-20T21:12:38Z younder: jcowan, What is the story on Complex Numbers in scheeme? 2016-10-20T21:13:26Z younder: GOD is SO lOVWE 2016-10-20T21:13:31Z younder: my math 2016-10-20T21:13:41Z younder: rotfl 2016-10-20T21:13:51Z jcowan: Until 2007 they were optional but widely supported. R6RS made inexact (i.e. float) complex numbers mandatory, but R6RS was not widely adopted. 2016-10-20T21:14:42Z younder: jcowan, and now? 2016-10-20T21:14:58Z jcowan: Well, it's open to vote, but I suspect the status quo will remain in R7RS. 2016-10-20T21:15:29Z jcowan: R7RS is partitioned into a small and large standard. The small standard does not require them but permits them. The large standard is what I'm dealing with now. 2016-10-20T21:15:40Z younder: jcowan, and will that be widely adopted? 2016-10-20T21:15:57Z ecraven: younder: no one knows yet 2016-10-20T21:16:02Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-20T21:16:04Z ecraven: but I think we all kind of hope it :) 2016-10-20T21:16:10Z jcowan: R7RS-small has been pretty successful so far 2016-10-20T21:16:11Z younder: I think we see the problem 2016-10-20T21:17:42Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-20T21:18:41Z younder: In all fairness DrRacket is kinda cool 2016-10-20T21:18:54Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-20T21:19:17Z jcowan: The R6RS standard was too much and too soon, and required more uniformity (and less backward compatibility with existing implementations) than Scheme implementers were willing to provide. 2016-10-20T21:19:22Z jcowan: IMO, anyway 2016-10-20T21:19:33Z jcowan: R7RS is sneakier 2016-10-20T21:20:24Z dwc: Is the new spec to be in two parts, like r7rs? 2016-10-20T21:20:30Z dwc: small and not small? 2016-10-20T21:21:01Z dwc: wait, you said that already 2016-10-20T21:21:15Z younder: HUGE and not HUGE? 2016-10-20T21:22:09Z younder: people used too critizis Common Lisp for bing huge 2016-10-20T21:23:34Z younder: now it is a small 32 MB chunk which everyone is comfortable with 2016-10-20T21:24:07Z dmiles: what should this print? 2016-10-20T21:24:07Z dmiles: (WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX (LET ((*PRINT-READABLY* NIL) (*PACKAGE* (SYMBOL-PACKAGE (QUOTE ABC)))) (FORMAT NIL "~2f" 1.1))) 2016-10-20T21:24:21Z younder: Lisp machines have gone 2016-10-20T21:24:26Z younder: dmiles, 1 2016-10-20T21:25:00Z aeth: Just looked it up... sbcl is 91 MB according to my package manager... and that's about the same size it takes up in RAM, actually. 2016-10-20T21:25:03Z aeth: Still not that small. 2016-10-20T21:25:04Z dmiles: clisp and sbcl: "1." 2016-10-20T21:25:32Z dmiles: ansi tests say: "1.0" 2016-10-20T21:26:34Z younder: dmiles, anyhow you want a .1 after that ~2f 2016-10-20T21:27:02Z jcowan: VERY HUGE 2016-10-20T21:27:08Z jcowan: bigger than ANSI CL 2016-10-20T21:27:26Z younder: jcowan, yes BIGGER 2016-10-20T21:27:55Z younder: jcowan, and altso BADDER and BETTER 2016-10-20T21:28:35Z jcowan: I hope. 2016-10-20T21:30:25Z younder: jcowan, Why don't you try it. A SBCL compiler is just waiting for you.. 2016-10-20T21:31:33Z younder: I'ts a beast, but it is quite the wonderful beast 2016-10-20T21:31:47Z JuanDaugherty: "1." here with sbcl 1.2.8 2016-10-20T21:31:48Z a--m joined #lisp 2016-10-20T21:34:34Z jcowan: younder: Try what? 2016-10-20T21:35:30Z dmiles: JuanDaugherty: ECL is the only lisp passing the formatter on floats tests 2016-10-20T21:35:58Z dwc: I would hope that if implementors do small plus extensions that they would look to the fuller spec for guidance 2016-10-20T21:36:16Z dmiles: ECL returns "1.0" 2016-10-20T21:36:48Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-20T21:36:57Z younder: perhaps you could try giving the right format ;) 2016-10-20T21:37:13Z beaky: wow nice bug catch dmiles 2016-10-20T21:37:24Z dmiles: here ar ethe tests all but ECL fail: http://pastebin.com/X8jPvP6N 2016-10-20T21:37:50Z younder: ECL IS a failure 2016-10-20T21:38:20Z dmiles: beaky and younder.. which is right? 2016-10-20T21:38:49Z younder: Be safe and go with SBCL 2016-10-20T21:39:16Z dmiles looking athe old tests to see if somehow they expected answers have changed 2016-10-20T21:39:42Z younder: Even XACK would agree with me 2016-10-20T21:40:17Z dmiles: i think the idea of the test is it printed .. then read so teh value could change? 2016-10-20T21:40:21Z beaky: so the spec specifies that there be must a trailing zero? 2016-10-20T21:40:37Z younder: no a trailing . 2016-10-20T21:40:52Z dmiles: though it not physically read 2016-10-20T21:40:53Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-20T21:41:14Z dmiles: the idea its only allowed to print "1." meanig the value is 1.0 2016-10-20T21:41:26Z younder: it is PHYSICALLY read.. but by the read entry 2016-10-20T21:41:53Z beaky: so "1." and "1.0" are both correct? 2016-10-20T21:41:53Z dmiles: ( i mean that i think was the idea of the test but doent happen) 2016-10-20T21:42:33Z dmiles: jackdaniel is the only one passing the test? 2016-10-20T21:43:59Z younder: You coud change the reader, but i would probably be fortunous to change the format statement 2016-10-20T21:44:37Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-10-20T21:44:53Z dmiles: (WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX (LET ((*PRINT-READABLY* NIL) (*PACKAGE* (SYMBOL-PACKAGE (QUOTE ABC)))) (FORMAT NIL "~0,0f" 0.01))) would should the putput be? 2016-10-20T21:45:35Z younder: I don't know. It is nonsesical 2016-10-20T21:45:40Z SumoSudo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-20T21:45:45Z dmiles: hrrm .. i agree with sbcl again 2016-10-20T21:45:48Z younder: but by all means try 2016-10-20T21:46:07Z dmiles: this is athe ansi lisp conformance test 2016-10-20T21:46:20Z dmiles: these seem to be new regressions 2016-10-20T21:46:36Z younder: F*** an ansi conformance test. This is the real world 2016-10-20T21:47:38Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-20T21:49:00Z dmiles: :) 2016-10-20T21:49:12Z ebrasca: phoe: ping 2016-10-20T21:50:16Z kamog quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T21:53:56Z a--m quit 2016-10-20T21:55:03Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-20T21:59:03Z phoe: ebrasca: hey hey! 2016-10-20T22:00:08Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T22:01:34Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:02:24Z phoe: ebrasca: I'll most likely look at your L-system tomorrow, during our kraklisp meeting. 2016-10-20T22:02:32Z phoe: My days are way too busy nowadays. ;_; 2016-10-20T22:02:35Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:02:47Z phoe: But tomorrow I have these three-four hours planned for Lisp every week, so I'll have the time for 100%. 2016-10-20T22:03:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:05:06Z earl-ducaine__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T22:05:09Z jackdaniel: huh? what test? 2016-10-20T22:05:23Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T22:05:28Z ebrasca: phoe: what kraklisp meeting ? 2016-10-20T22:05:29Z jackdaniel: float and minimal number of digits? 2016-10-20T22:05:42Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T22:06:02Z phoe: ebrasca: there's a Lisp meeting that I hold, every Friday in Cracow 2016-10-20T22:06:13Z jackdaniel: yes, I believe ECL does the right thing (I've consulted this clhs part with number of smarter people than me) 2016-10-20T22:06:42Z earl-ducaine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T22:06:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:07:20Z ebrasca: phoe: It is in poland? 2016-10-20T22:07:22Z trinitr01 joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:07:38Z dmiles: jackdaniel: http://pastebin.com/X8jPvP6N 2016-10-20T22:07:39Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T22:08:09Z dmiles: abcl, clisp and sbcl are failing the same way 2016-10-20T22:08:15Z BusFactor1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T22:08:34Z jackdaniel: right, the point is, that you want to print float with 2 (or if not possible - minimum) number of characters 2016-10-20T22:08:39Z trinitr0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T22:08:39Z trinitr01 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T22:08:43Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-20T22:08:44Z jackdaniel: 2. is just 2 with base 10 2016-10-20T22:08:51Z jackdaniel: it has to be 2.0 to be a float 2016-10-20T22:08:55Z phoe: ebrasca: yes, Poland! 2016-10-20T22:08:57Z phoe: Cracow, Poland. 2016-10-20T22:09:09Z dmiles: ah i see 2016-10-20T22:09:21Z jackdaniel: afair (I have fixed it a while ago with a dozen of consultations whenever my reasoning is right) 2016-10-20T22:09:24Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:09:56Z ebrasca: phoe: I am in Poland near Czech Republic. 2016-10-20T22:10:18Z jackdaniel goes to bed, it's too late for him 2016-10-20T22:10:39Z jackdaniel: younder: I believe you are wrong at this particular point 2016-10-20T22:10:48Z dmiles: F.46 though there might be two answers that are correct 2016-10-20T22:10:51Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:11:08Z jackdaniel: no, because 0. is integer (with base 10) 2016-10-20T22:11:11Z jackdaniel: but .0 is float 2016-10-20T22:11:22Z dmiles: oh true 2016-10-20T22:11:38Z dmiles: well "0." isnt float? 2016-10-20T22:11:46Z jackdaniel: it's integer 2016-10-20T22:12:00Z jackdaniel: try it in the repl 2016-10-20T22:12:02Z jackdaniel: type 0. 2016-10-20T22:12:04Z jackdaniel: and .0 2016-10-20T22:12:12Z Xach: 0. is a decimal integer, regardless of *read-base* 2016-10-20T22:12:17Z dmiles: yup i confirmed you are correct 2016-10-20T22:12:18Z jackdaniel: ↑ 2016-10-20T22:12:21Z Xach: as jackdaniel says 2016-10-20T22:12:57Z dmiles: FORMAT.F.46B ? 2016-10-20T22:13:14Z dmiles: (*PRINT-READABLY* NIL) 2016-10-20T22:13:35Z dmiles: "." is cetainly unreadable :P 2016-10-20T22:14:10Z dmiles: according to the logic above the ".0" might be the answer and not "0." 2016-10-20T22:14:12Z jackdaniel: what was the second parameter to ~f ? 2016-10-20T22:14:29Z dmiles: (WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX (LET ((*PRINT-READABLY* NIL) (*PACKAGE* (SYMBOL-PACKAGE (QUOTE ABC)))) (FORMAT NIL "~0,0f" 0.01))) 2016-10-20T22:14:40Z jackdaniel: I mean - what was the meaning :p 2016-10-20T22:14:55Z dmiles: means leave ou tthe rest 2016-10-20T22:15:05Z dmiles: erm print only 0 places 2016-10-20T22:15:18Z dmiles: but what ius teh meaing of first? 2016-10-20T22:15:29Z jackdaniel: then ah, it is explicitly said, that 0 digits is after the "." 2016-10-20T22:15:35Z dmiles: no padding? 2016-10-20T22:15:37Z jackdaniel: the first is width 2016-10-20T22:15:47Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-20T22:15:53Z jackdaniel: so 0. is the correct answer 2016-10-20T22:15:53Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-20T22:16:21Z beaky: so the implementations were right after all? :D 2016-10-20T22:16:27Z jackdaniel: because if the float doesn't fit in width, you ought to use minimum number of characters, and you have to put 0 characters after the separator 2016-10-20T22:16:32Z jackdaniel: beaky: no 2016-10-20T22:16:38Z beaky: oh 2016-10-20T22:16:38Z jackdaniel: it's another test 2016-10-20T22:16:39Z dmiles: beaky: the impls are wrong according to jackdaniel 2016-10-20T22:16:52Z dmiles: (and i am staritng to agree with him) 2016-10-20T22:16:56Z jackdaniel: \o/ 2016-10-20T22:17:06Z beaky: hm i thought the trailing zeroes were optional 2016-10-20T22:17:18Z beaky: (after the .) 2016-10-20T22:17:32Z phoe: ebrasca: I know! I'm on #lisp-pl :D 2016-10-20T22:17:43Z dmiles: i still dont no why the "0" was required on "." 2016-10-20T22:17:55Z dmiles: i still dont no why the "0" was required before the "." 2016-10-20T22:18:05Z jackdaniel: dmiles: because you are printing a number, not a dot 2016-10-20T22:18:08Z jackdaniel: what is dot? 2016-10-20T22:18:09Z dmiles: i guess it was there becasue its "ok to be there?": 2016-10-20T22:18:27Z dmiles: i guess it was there becasue its "ok to be there"? 2016-10-20T22:18:32Z phoe: no, not really 2016-10-20T22:19:06Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-20T22:19:16Z jackdaniel: try (format t "~0,0f" 10.1234) 2016-10-20T22:19:24Z jackdaniel: you will have 10. 2016-10-20T22:19:50Z dmiles: sort of liek (FORMAT NIL "~1,0f" 111.111) 2016-10-20T22:19:53Z safe joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:19:55Z jackdaniel: (because zero digits after "." - second parameter), and minimal number of digits 2016-10-20T22:20:02Z dmiles: you get the entire 111 2016-10-20T22:20:04Z yoosi joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:20:12Z dmiles: i see now 2016-10-20T22:21:08Z dmiles: so UABCL and ECL will be the only impls doing it correctly :P 2016-10-20T22:21:18Z jackdaniel: fix also ABCL ;-) 2016-10-20T22:21:26Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T22:21:29Z jackdaniel: good night o/ 2016-10-20T22:21:38Z dmiles: nn.. thx 2016-10-20T22:21:43Z jackdaniel: sure 2016-10-20T22:24:05Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:26:05Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:27:08Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-20T22:28:59Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-20T22:30:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T22:31:56Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-20T22:33:19Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-20T22:35:03Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-20T22:37:01Z warweasle: HI 2016-10-20T22:37:32Z phoe: HEY 2016-10-20T22:38:21Z warweasle: phoe: What's up? 2016-10-20T22:38:49Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-20T22:39:06Z phoe: warweasle: me at 00:40 2016-10-20T22:39:08Z phoe: about to crash 2016-10-20T22:39:29Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:39:36Z jasom: now that I'm using bundle-op I've found 2 bugs, but they were easily fixed. 2016-10-20T22:39:43Z warweasle: phoe: Cool. I'm just getting geared up for a night of lisp. 2016-10-20T22:39:56Z phoe: good! 2016-10-20T22:39:59Z phoe: and good night~ 2016-10-20T22:40:24Z jasom: actually bundle-op was find it was the deliver-asd-op that was wrong 2016-10-20T22:40:34Z jasom: which makes sense because I'm not sure anyone has ever used the latter 2016-10-20T22:42:00Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:48:32Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T22:49:55Z krwq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T22:50:53Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-20T22:50:57Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-20T22:51:16Z Xach: jasom: with asdf or with your code? 2016-10-20T22:51:22Z Xach: (context suggests asdf!) 2016-10-20T22:53:06Z krwq: hello, how do you check number of args the function takes? (or at least: is it 0 or non-zero) 2016-10-20T22:55:43Z Xach: krwq: there isn't a built-in way to do that. 2016-10-20T22:56:02Z Xach: krwq: what prompts the question? 2016-10-20T22:56:32Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-20T22:56:56Z krwq: Xach: i'm working with emacs lisp and i am trying to figure out if (funcall 'symbol) (note no args) will work. I'm trying to activate a mode by name 2016-10-20T22:57:18Z phoe: krwq: woop! you might want #emacs for that. 2016-10-20T22:57:24Z Xach: Oh. This channel is for common lisp. #emacs might be helpful for your question. 2016-10-20T22:57:25Z phoe: this channel is Common Lisp. 2016-10-20T22:57:36Z phoe: emacs lisp might have a way for that. 2016-10-20T22:58:05Z BusFactor1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-20T22:58:07Z krwq: ok then, thanks! 2016-10-20T22:59:16Z Xach: krwq: it might be more helpful to ask "how can i activate a mode by name" rather than the specifics of how you think it should be done... 2016-10-20T23:00:59Z yoosi quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-20T23:01:10Z krwq: Xach: probably right but I couldn't find anything but hardcoded list of modes. I'm trying to make guesses wherever possible and do hardcoding whenever not possible 2016-10-20T23:01:16Z yoosi joined #lisp 2016-10-20T23:01:50Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T23:02:57Z dwc: Hmm. To be a mode, shouldn't it conform to something? 2016-10-20T23:03:41Z pierpa: dmiles: 1. and 1.0 are two completely different things in CL 2016-10-20T23:03:52Z dwc: I mean, mode hooks are going to expect something. Calling by name doesn't change that. 2016-10-20T23:04:22Z raydeejay: you're all confusing the guy/gal 2016-10-20T23:05:03Z raydeejay: krwq: F, and then type the name of the function 2016-10-20T23:07:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-20T23:08:37Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-20T23:09:05Z phoe: pierpa: yes, unlike in JS for instance 2016-10-20T23:10:13Z pierpa: well, js afaik has only numeric type, no? 2016-10-20T23:10:21Z pierpa: *only ONE numeric type 2016-10-20T23:15:04Z pierpa: anyway, according to the CLHS the implementations printing "1." are wrong. 2016-10-20T23:16:07Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-20T23:28:42Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-20T23:28:51Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-20T23:29:08Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-20T23:29:35Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-20T23:31:38Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-20T23:31:39Z tc2keats quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-20T23:34:54Z dmiles: pierpa: right.. one is an integer and the other a float 2016-10-20T23:34:56Z krwq: raydeejay: help-function-arglist is the closest i was able to find - seems like an overkill but works for now.. 2016-10-20T23:36:34Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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His statement was pretty clear to me. 2016-10-21T02:54:21Z ASau quit (Quit: away.) 2016-10-21T02:57:35Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-21T02:58:48Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T02:59:38Z krwq: loke: could you remind the context? i restarted emacs 2016-10-21T02:59:52Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T03:00:21Z loke: i love CLOS 2016-10-21T03:00:38Z loke: krwq: And you restarted Emacs? Heresy! 2016-10-21T03:01:16Z krwq: loke: i usually auto-eval .emacs but it actually hanged 2016-10-21T03:02:12Z loke: krwq: Doing some configuration now are we? 2016-10-21T03:02:28Z krwq: it is actually quite PITA that .emacs doesn't auto-eval by default, it saved me so much time on both debugging and restarting and setting up 2016-10-21T03:03:46Z krwq: loke: that was the first thing i added, now working on that configuration restoring thing. i wrote the windows layout restoring but it doesn't properly save buffers yet. I just discovered emacs-goodies-el so i actually might not finish that project 2016-10-21T03:04:16Z loke: krwq: what do you mean by auto eval by default? 2016-10-21T03:04:25Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-21T03:05:51Z krwq: i added http://paste.lisp.org/display/329136 to my .emacs 2016-10-21T03:06:13Z loke: krwq: That's horrifying. 2016-10-21T03:06:23Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T03:06:24Z krwq: and (add-hook 'after-save-hook #'auto-update-emacs-init 2016-10-21T03:06:32Z krwq: whatever, how else would you do it? 2016-10-21T03:06:47Z krwq: it works quite well for me 2016-10-21T03:07:00Z loke: krwq: Manually run 'eval-buffer'? I mean, you're going to end up evaluating half-written broken stuff just because you happened to save. 2016-10-21T03:07:11Z krwq: yep 2016-10-21T03:07:26Z krwq: i never broken anything so that my emacs was unusable 2016-10-21T03:07:44Z loke: Just because you've been lucky so far doesn't mean it' 2016-10-21T03:07:47Z loke: s a good idea. 2016-10-21T03:08:00Z loke: But, it's not my job to confivince you otherwise. 2016-10-21T03:08:14Z krwq: then it's gonna break every half a year and i will fix it by hand or git checkout 2016-10-21T03:08:27Z krwq: i do commits like every few hours 2016-10-21T03:09:53Z krwq: make it work, then improve 2016-10-21T03:11:42Z krwq: i just realized im not on #emacs lol 2016-10-21T03:12:39Z beaky: i love clos because i just discovered you can loop over arbitrary objects' slots like this https://ideone.com/iBxjTr 2016-10-21T03:17:57Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-21T03:21:29Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2016-10-21T03:23:23Z rpg: beaky: are you sure that's kosher CLOS code? 2016-10-21T03:23:31Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-21T03:23:37Z beaky: nope 2016-10-21T03:24:02Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-10-21T03:24:03Z rpg: I suspect that's some implementation's specific stuff -- although you can get something very much like it using the MOP. 2016-10-21T03:24:29Z Bike: those are mop functions, they're just in the clos package. 2016-10-21T03:24:52Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-10-21T03:28:54Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-21T03:33:04Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2016-10-21T03:33:58Z loke: _death: Hello, are you around? 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I'm brand new to clisp 2016-10-21T06:02:21Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:02:31Z vert2 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:02:51Z Tordek joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:03:10Z nydel joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:04:31Z _death: clhs braek 2016-10-21T06:04:31Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for braek. 2016-10-21T06:04:34Z _death: clhs break 2016-10-21T06:04:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_break.htm 2016-10-21T06:04:52Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-21T06:09:27Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:14:03Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-21T06:14:38Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:18:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T06:18:33Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-21T06:18:38Z noobsy quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-10-21T06:22:59Z loke: Hello _death. Are you around? 2016-10-21T06:23:05Z _death: yes 2016-10-21T06:23:08Z loke: Sorry for disappearing. I was at the dentist. 2016-10-21T06:24:01Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:24:04Z loke: _death: Cool. I am using stumpwm, and I would like to be able to pick up notifications to display them on the stumpwm status bar. However, I can't figure out how to actually use the dbus library to listen to messages. Sending them is fine, there is an example for that. 2016-10-21T06:24:41Z loke: _death: I was wondering if it's possible using your library, and if so, what's the entry point? 2016-10-21T06:25:41Z _death: loke: I've not worked on dbus for some years.. phmarek recently started implementing something to publish dbus objects.. it's in the publish-dbus-objects branch 2016-10-21T06:26:33Z loke: _death: I see. Does it work well enough to pick up notifications? 2016-10-21T06:27:06Z _death: loke: I'm not sure, I've only skimmed the code to give some feedback 2016-10-21T06:27:18Z _death: loke: but that is the entry point 2016-10-21T06:27:27Z man213 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:27:54Z loke: _death: What is the source repository? (If I may be so bold as to give a suggestion: To add a link to the repository in the README, and perhaps even some contact information) 2016-10-21T06:28:08Z _death: https://github.com/death/dbus 2016-10-21T06:28:13Z loke: Thanks 2016-10-21T06:29:41Z _death: my github projects are usually written for my own convenience.. patches welcome though ;) 2016-10-21T06:29:41Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T06:29:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-21T06:30:24Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:31:32Z loke: I just tried to build that branch of dbus, and it fails on EMPTY-TAG not being bound in XML-EMITTER. Does it rely on a newer version of that library than what is available in QL? 2016-10-21T06:33:39Z _death: looks like it.. https://github.com/VitoVan/xml-emitter/commits/master 2016-10-21T06:33:55Z loke: Yes. I discovered that,. 2016-10-21T06:33:58Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:34:17Z loke: So it'll hopefully be there in the next QL update. 2016-10-21T06:34:27Z loke: _death: is phmarek ever here? 2016-10-21T06:34:43Z _death: yes 2016-10-21T06:35:12Z frodef joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:35:25Z loke: Ah, he's flip214? 2016-10-21T06:35:46Z _death: yes.. I forgot that he uses a different nick here so I didn't mention that 2016-10-21T06:36:06Z loke: OK, I'll bug him later if he dares to speak to me. :-) 2016-10-21T06:37:00Z schaueho joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:38:45Z schaueho quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-21T06:38:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-21T06:42:26Z RichardPaulBck[m: Do you guys know if there is an UML tool like Visual Paradigm for Lisp? 2016-10-21T06:42:43Z RichardPaulBck[m: In the best case under a FLOSS license. 2016-10-21T06:42:47Z alienbot_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:43:05Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T06:43:28Z jdz: Isn't UML supposed to be programming-language-independent? 2016-10-21T06:43:44Z gko: any user of Slime + LispWorks ? 2016-10-21T06:44:22Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T06:45:10Z _death: jdz: as long as the programming languages are similar :D 2016-10-21T06:45:36Z jdz: Or as long as the programming languages are Java... 2016-10-21T06:46:27Z RichardPaulBck[m: jdz: you are right. Better explanation: an UML tool that generates Common Lisp code based on UMLs. 2016-10-21T06:47:08Z jdz: RichardPaulBck[m: in CL people write macros to generate CL code, not draw diagrams. 2016-10-21T06:48:10Z RichardPaulBck[m: I know that but UML can be easily read by non programmers and people who do not know CL, CL itself can't. 2016-10-21T06:48:20Z jdz: In my experience the diagrams-to-code tools don't work because they're one-directional. 2016-10-21T06:49:04Z jdz: The diagrams that can be shown to non-programmers would be useless for code generation. 2016-10-21T06:49:39Z jdz: And the ones that could be shown to programmers would be so detailed they'd be more efficiently expressed as code, not diagrams. 2016-10-21T06:50:13Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T06:53:41Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-21T06:54:24Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:58:04Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:58:19Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T06:58:54Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:00:34Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:04:21Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T07:05:15Z loke: flip214: Hello! :-) 2016-10-21T07:06:00Z loke: RichardPaulBck[m: Why on earth would you want that? I mean, the UML paradigm for software design has thankfully mostly died even in the Java world. 2016-10-21T07:06:11Z flip214: loke: Hi 2016-10-21T07:06:18Z loke: Hello flip214 ! 2016-10-21T07:06:27Z loke: flip214: Did you see the discussion I had with _death just now? 2016-10-21T07:06:41Z flip214: no, just turned the machine on. 2016-10-21T07:06:46Z loke: flip214: Ah. 2016-10-21T07:06:48Z flip214: no, just turned the machine on. reading the backlog now. 2016-10-21T07:06:53Z loke: flip214: I was talking about your dbus server stuff. 2016-10-21T07:07:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:07:24Z flip214: yeah, just read it. 2016-10-21T07:07:31Z loke: The short story: All I want is to be able to receive desktop notifications. I can't for the life of me figure out how to use your code to do that, even after reading the freedesktop notifictions spec. 2016-10-21T07:07:35Z flip214: sure, notifications come through, but are not (yet) exposed nicely. 2016-10-21T07:07:39Z loke: flip214: Would you be able to assist? 2016-10-21T07:07:53Z loke: I just can't seem to get it to react at all. 2016-10-21T07:07:54Z flip214: if you run the dbus-server branch and just start the server example, 2016-10-21T07:08:11Z loke: flip214: Yes, that works. But when I try to implement the notifications spec, I get nothing. 2016-10-21T07:08:30Z loke: That said, I think it's because I never put the correct "path" in there, but your API doesn't even have a field for it. 2016-10-21T07:08:46Z loke: https://developer.gnome.org/notification-spec/ 2016-10-21T07:10:05Z RichardPaulBck[m: loke: I was just interested if there exists something like that. 2016-10-21T07:10:50Z flip214: hmm, but dbus-serve does take the interface as argument... 2016-10-21T07:10:56Z loke: RichardPaulBck[m: I can't say it does. 2016-10-21T07:11:18Z loke: RichardPaulBck[m: I was mostly curious as to why you would ask such question in the first place 2016-10-21T07:11:54Z flip214: how would I trigger such a notification? 2016-10-21T07:12:06Z loke: flip214: The interface, yes. But not the path. 2016-10-21T07:12:16Z loke: flip214: The spec says: 2016-10-21T07:12:20Z loke: flip214: "The server should implement the org.freedesktop.Notifications interface on an object with the path "/org/freedesktop/Notifications"" 2016-10-21T07:12:40Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:12:49Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:13:46Z flip214: loke: well, the server parts just get a message yet... 2016-10-21T07:14:06Z daniel-s quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T07:14:12Z flip214: server-handle-message doesn't care about the path yet 2016-10-21T07:14:24Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:14:46Z flip214: and do you want to provide a server, or something that *listens* to such notifications? Or am I confused here again by the words that are used? 2016-10-21T07:15:21Z alienbot_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-10-21T07:15:48Z loke: flip214: I see. What about the :in and :out arguments" You specify "si" and "is" there, which seems somewhat arbitrary to me. 2016-10-21T07:16:19Z allezbluez joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:16:26Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:16:46Z flip214: on my machine only org.freedesktop.Notifications and org.freedesktop.DBus have a /org/freedesktop/Notifications path in use 2016-10-21T07:17:01Z loke: flip214: Right. 2016-10-21T07:17:08Z flip214: loke: are you in the example code? 2016-10-21T07:18:46Z loke: flip214: Yes 2016-10-21T07:18:51Z loke: flip214: And this is what I've been trying: 2016-10-21T07:18:53Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329146 2016-10-21T07:19:22Z loke: I created a similar one for "Notify". 2016-10-21T07:19:28Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T07:20:41Z flip214: org.freedesktop.Notifications.getcapabilities 2016-10-21T07:20:50Z flip214: the path case is wrong 2016-10-21T07:21:34Z loke: flip214: the spec very clearly says STRING_ARRAY org.freedesktop.Notifications.GetCapabilities ( ); 2016-10-21T07:21:35Z flip214: but I can see eg. NameAcquired signal-messages arriving 2016-10-21T07:22:47Z aries_liu joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:22:48Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T07:23:48Z tristero quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T07:23:52Z flip214: (:in "" :out "as" :dbus-name "GetCapabilities") 2016-10-21T07:25:03Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:25:16Z loke: flip214: OK, and what should I specify for :in and :out for the "Notify" method? It takes 8 parameters of varying type, and returns UINT32. 2016-10-21T07:32:37Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T07:33:28Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:34:03Z flip214: loke: pull my github changes, I can successfully run your GetCapabilities example code. 2016-10-21T07:34:21Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:35:39Z flip214: well, :in "susssa(ss)a(ss)i" ? 2016-10-21T07:36:28Z loke: flip214: does it work if you call "notify-send" from the commandline? 2016-10-21T07:36:54Z flip214: I called GetCapabilities via qdbus 2016-10-21T07:37:52Z aries_liu quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-21T07:38:06Z aries_liu joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:40:00Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:40:02Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:40:18Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T07:40:44Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T07:41:45Z loke: flip214: I have the branch where the most recent commit was 21 days ago. Is that the one you meant? 2016-10-21T07:41:48Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:42:53Z pillton: ,quit 2016-10-21T07:42:56Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-21T07:44:07Z loke: flip214: Ohh. I got some output. Turns out I had swapped the two first arguments to DBUS-SERVE. The first should be the official name (org.freedesktop.Notifications) and the second the name of my application, right? 2016-10-21T07:44:43Z loke: Now I get output from dbus-serve, but the methods are till not called. 2016-10-21T07:44:49Z tc2keats joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:48:36Z flip214: loke: no, just committed a few minutes ago. you'll need to use my gitg 2016-10-21T07:48:57Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:49:03Z flip214: *github repo, not the "official" one. 2016-10-21T07:49:38Z loke: This one? https://github.com/phmarek/dbus/ 2016-10-21T07:49:52Z flip214: yes 2016-10-21T07:50:17Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:50:27Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:50:58Z pillton joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:53:22Z loke: flip214: Thanks. I'll try 2016-10-21T07:53:47Z loke: flip214: Is there somewhere I can learn what this "sussaas(ss)" stuff means? 2016-10-21T07:53:52Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-21T07:54:26Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:00:03Z aries_liu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T08:00:26Z aries_liu joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:00:49Z flip214: loke: look in type-definitions.lisp 2016-10-21T08:01:02Z flip214: "u" == uint32, "s" == string, etc 2016-10-21T08:01:36Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T08:05:56Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T08:06:01Z alienbot_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:07:26Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:08:13Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:09:20Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T08:09:30Z loke: flip214: OK, I think I'm slowly getting this. 2016-10-21T08:09:48Z loke: So since GetServerInformation has 4 output arguments, I should declare the :out to be "sososo" ? 2016-10-21T08:10:13Z josteink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T08:13:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:14:13Z flip214: loke: "sososo" would be :string, :object-path, :string, :o-p, :s, :o-p 2016-10-21T08:14:19Z flip214: so not 4 values 2016-10-21T08:16:07Z loke: I see. 2016-10-21T08:18:42Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T08:18:55Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:20:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:20:17Z loke: flip214: But these OUTPUT parameters, how do I specify them? Should I call some function to assign them? 2016-10-21T08:20:28Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T08:23:52Z flip214: loke: (define-dbus-method .... (values "a" "string" "and" "a" 5)) 2016-10-21T08:24:17Z flip214: "four" "strings" "and" "a" 5 would have been more appropriate 2016-10-21T08:24:59Z loke: flip214: I tried that, but when I had :out "ssss" the thing hung after receiving the GetServerInformation. I then tried to put the following at the end of the method, and it doesn't hang anymore: 2016-10-21T08:25:06Z loke: (mapcar #'dbus:message-reply-serial '("StumpWM notifications service" "com.dhsdevelopments" "1.0" "1.2")) 2016-10-21T08:25:32Z loke: flip214: (it was hanging because it was waiting for stuff to be sent) 2016-10-21T08:26:13Z loke: But I realise that I'm just guessing here. I should spend some time understanding how the protocol itself actually works. 2016-10-21T08:28:26Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:30:50Z yaewa joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:31:33Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:31:36Z alienbot_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T08:32:00Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-21T08:38:28Z _death: welp, I pushed an unrelated change to dbus that fixes an issue eadmund had 2016-10-21T08:44:05Z aries_liu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T08:48:07Z loke: flip214: I was looking at the implementation of your server code, and it's not wonder the (VALUES ...) form doesn't do anything. The event dispatcher calls HANDLE-ONE-MESSAGE (and ignores the return value), it then calls SERVER-HANDLE-MESSAGE which simply calls the underlying handler method. Thus, the retun value from the method is never actually used. 2016-10-21T08:48:23Z allezbluez1 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:48:23Z allezbluez1 quit (Changing host) 2016-10-21T08:48:23Z allezbluez1 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:48:38Z loke: flip214: That explains why no matter what I returned, the thing hung when I specifified :OUT parameters. 2016-10-21T08:50:42Z allezbluez quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T08:51:59Z przl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T08:52:24Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-21T08:53:28Z flip214: loke: sorry, I don't follow you here. too many other things at the moment. but with (DEFINE-DBUS-METHOD ... (values "a" "b")) the "qdbus" call printed these two strings for me, so they can't be ignored. 2016-10-21T08:54:37Z loke: flip214: OK, I don't want to waste your time needlessly (I feel embarrassed to have done so already). Please allow me to follow these function calls again, so that I can describe my findings more clearly. 2016-10-21T08:54:57Z loke: brb 2016-10-21T08:58:45Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T08:59:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T08:59:37Z flip214: loke: no problem at all. 2016-10-21T08:59:54Z flip214: I like to help, and I'm interested in getting that to work... 2016-10-21T09:00:10Z flip214: It's just that there are other things on my agenda, too ;/ 2016-10-21T09:01:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:02:25Z loke: flip214: OK, I wrote a paste, with comments explaining each level in the call chain, starting at the method all the way to the event loop: 2016-10-21T09:02:27Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329154 2016-10-21T09:02:36Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:02:37Z loke: Please let me know if I misunderstood. 2016-10-21T09:06:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:06:13Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:06:18Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:06:30Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:06:34Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:06:52Z flip214: loke: you assume that *I* understand the dbus protocol, right? That might not work out in the end ... 2016-10-21T09:07:18Z loke: flip214: Not at all. :-) I'm just showing where I got the impression that the return valu si never used. 2016-10-21T09:07:31Z loke: If it actually is used, then that means that I have completely misunderstood your code. 2016-10-21T09:08:20Z _death: the reverse-shiftf for pending messages should be a call to drain-pending-messages, btw 2016-10-21T09:08:47Z loke: flip214: I have no problems digging deep into your code, but if the return value from the method is called, then that means that I have misunderstood where it actually is called, and I'd love to know where the actuall call is made so I can see how its return value is processed. 2016-10-21T09:10:37Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:10:41Z loke: Finally, I'm not sure how the return values could ever be processed, given that there are no calls to M-V-C or M-V-L in the entore code base (and no M-V-B would could apply either) 2016-10-21T09:13:25Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:14:40Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:22:31Z flip214: loke: clhs handler-case 2016-10-21T09:22:35Z flip214: clhs handler-case 2016-10-21T09:22:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm 2016-10-21T09:23:21Z flip214: loke: :no-error is equivalent to MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL 2016-10-21T09:24:23Z Bike: wow that's pretty obscure. 2016-10-21T09:24:49Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:26:23Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-21T09:26:51Z alienbot_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:27:57Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:28:47Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:29:22Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:30:00Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:30:29Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:31:59Z loke: flip214: Wow. 2016-10-21T09:32:12Z loke: flip214: I have no idea. As bike said, that's very obscure. 2016-10-21T09:32:46Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:34:11Z Bike quit (Quit: EATEN) 2016-10-21T09:34:31Z shrdlu68: Is it possible to redirect when a page is not found on Hunchentoot? I can specialize accepto-status-message but I can't redirect from there. 2016-10-21T09:36:06Z kcodrgkimd joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:36:28Z shrdlu68: H4ns: Is this Hans Huebner? 2016-10-21T09:36:30Z loke: shrdlu68: You can implement your own dispatcher that does whever you want. 2016-10-21T09:37:00Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:37:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T09:37:49Z shrdlu68: loke: How would that work for, say, 404s? 2016-10-21T09:38:24Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:38:35Z jdz: shrdlu68: your dispatcher would be the one generating the 404s. 2016-10-21T09:38:36Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:38:56Z shrdlu68: Ah wait, I can specify a regex dispatcher for all pages not on the server! 2016-10-21T09:39:32Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:39:40Z shrdlu68: But that's rather hackish. 2016-10-21T09:41:11Z shrdlu68: jdz: How do I get traffick to land in the dispatcher in the first place? Regex dispatcher? 2016-10-21T09:42:14Z flip214: shrdlu68: a prefix dispatcher on "/" ? 2016-10-21T09:42:18Z alienbot_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-10-21T09:42:54Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:43:07Z shrdlu68: I'm getting lots of traffick from curl/python URLlib, etc. Automated cracking scripts. 2016-10-21T09:43:19Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:44:32Z allezbluez2 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:45:00Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:45:18Z flip214: well, just act on the 20 most common things ("/PHPmyadmin" etc.) and have these put in an iptables rule 2016-10-21T09:45:21Z loke: flip214: yes! Thank you so much! 2016-10-21T09:45:29Z loke: flip214: I managed to get it to work 2016-10-21T09:45:52Z flip214: that's what fail2ban does 2016-10-21T09:45:56Z flip214: loke: great! 2016-10-21T09:46:06Z allezbluez1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:46:22Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:46:47Z shrdlu68: flip214: Prefix dispatcher sounds better, but then I'll have to have one huge cond block or regex. Would be neat if accepto-status-message could redirect. 2016-10-21T09:47:02Z loke: flip214: Here's the functioning code: 2016-10-21T09:47:03Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329155 2016-10-21T09:47:06Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:47:11Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:47:28Z loke: I can now get notifications properly 2016-10-21T09:47:34Z jdz joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:47:54Z rm34D quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-21T09:48:59Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:49:15Z flip214: shrdlu68: why do you need a cond block? 2016-10-21T09:49:36Z flip214: simply make that one the "last" (ie. "default") handler, then all otherwise unhandled requests "fall through" to it 2016-10-21T09:49:57Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:50:27Z flip214: loke: if you've got some time, could you pack that example with a few comments into pull requests or so? 2016-10-21T09:50:34Z loke: flip214: Sure. 2016-10-21T09:50:44Z flip214: thanks a lot! 2016-10-21T09:50:54Z flip214: so that other can benefit from your hard work... ;) 2016-10-21T09:51:44Z alienbot quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-10-21T09:52:09Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:53:24Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:53:25Z loke: flip214: I'm still not quite there yet though. :-) I can send messages to my application using 'notify-send', but the original reason for me wanting to do this was to be able to pick up notifications from Pidgin. For some reason I'm not getting those messages. 2016-10-21T09:54:13Z loke: I'll some more research on this. But I'll post something once I have it. 2016-10-21T09:54:54Z loke: Woah! I do get notifications from Spotify though. This is pretty neat. 2016-10-21T09:57:08Z loke: flip214: I want to put this stuff into a Stump module. But in order to do that the dbus-server stuff needs to be in QL. 2016-10-21T09:58:06Z shrdlu68: flip214: Exactly, meaning that I have to list all preceding handlers, which are quite a lot. 2016-10-21T09:58:10Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-10-21T09:58:45Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T09:59:09Z loke: My dispatcher looks like this: https://github.com/lokedhs/lofn/blob/master/server.lisp#L50 2016-10-21T10:00:12Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-10-21T10:00:28Z john-mcaleely_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:00:55Z alienbot quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-10-21T10:01:11Z flip214: loke: I'd like that, too ;) 2016-10-21T10:01:31Z flip214: shrdlu68: why do you need to list them? Sorry, I don't follow you here. 2016-10-21T10:02:14Z john-mcaleely_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-21T10:02:23Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:02:28Z loke: I have to admit that I find the API to be somewhat low-level. I do agree slightly with the comments from _death. That said, I have no idea how to actually provice it much. 2016-10-21T10:02:33Z loke: "improve" 2016-10-21T10:02:40Z loke: How the hell did I manage to make that typo? 2016-10-21T10:03:00Z flip214: loke: age, and muscle-memory ;) 2016-10-21T10:03:10Z loke: flip214: Something like that. 2016-10-21T10:03:11Z loke: :-) 2016-10-21T10:03:25Z flip214: loke: yeah. TBH, I haven't yet found a much better way to export functions. 2016-10-21T10:03:45Z loke: Anyway, I have to work a bit on using CLIM from Stump in order for me to actually do something useful with the data :-) 2016-10-21T10:04:00Z razzy89 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:04:48Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:05:17Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:06:34Z loke: flip214: Yes. I have no idea how to actually achieve what he wanted. I guess it would be nice if I didn't have to manually work out that the arguments for Notify are: "susssasa{sv}i" 2016-10-21T10:06:59Z loke: flip214: That said, it was easy when the incoming message was logged and I could see it in the raw output. :-) 2016-10-21T10:07:17Z aerique quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:10:03Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:10:05Z alienbot_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:10:23Z flip214: loke: well, look at (convert-to-store (find-package ...)) 2016-10-21T10:10:36Z flip214: that parses DEFMETHOD arguments into the dbus string, or at least it should. 2016-10-21T10:15:48Z loke: flip214: I see. 2016-10-21T10:16:05Z loke: flip214: But it's not used by define-dbus-method? 2016-10-21T10:17:13Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:18:06Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:18:39Z flip214: no, not yet. 2016-10-21T10:18:39Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:19:09Z flip214: I don't really know what to do with unspecified arguments (should they become VARIANT? How to handle these?), 2016-10-21T10:19:25Z flip214: optional or keyword arguments, etc. 2016-10-21T10:19:33Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:19:45Z flip214: I just meant it's a thing you can try to look at. 2016-10-21T10:23:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:27:08Z flip214: loke: I'm not sure whether structured arguments/outputs work, or even how these should work. 2016-10-21T10:27:28Z flip214: things like "array of (int, string)" (would be "a(is)") etc. 2016-10-21T10:27:54Z flip214: I guess the lisp side would need loops or (destructuring-bind) etc. for these 2016-10-21T10:30:08Z alienbot_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:32:29Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:33:25Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:36:06Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:37:05Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:39:03Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:40:37Z yaewa quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-21T10:41:04Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:41:51Z fUD quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-21T10:44:26Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:46:21Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:47:08Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:47:09Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:48:20Z ChoHag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:49:11Z ChoHag joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:49:22Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:50:50Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:51:54Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-21T10:52:50Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:53:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:55:41Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-21T10:56:09Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:58:53Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T10:59:20Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T11:03:33Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-21T11:03:47Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T11:04:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-21T11:07:32Z allezbluez2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T11:10:06Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-21T11:13:14Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-21T11:16:13Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-21T11:23:01Z kcodrgkimd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-21T11:24:10Z cpape quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-21T11:24:28Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-21T11:31:11Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T11:35:09Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-21T11:35:09Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T11:35:24Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-10-21T11:38:44Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-21T11:40:05Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T11:40:12Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T11:40:57Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-21T11:43:39Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-21T11:47:55Z cpape joined #lisp 2016-10-21T11:48:26Z freedom01 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T11:52:02Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-21T11:52:14Z klltkr: Hello 2016-10-21T11:52:28Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T11:52:55Z cpape quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-10-21T11:53:51Z cpape joined #lisp 2016-10-21T11:55:17Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-21T11:57:17Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T11:57:32Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-21T11:58:48Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T12:00:19Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-21T12:03:42Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-21T12:06:01Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-21T15:40:38Z flip214: when entering in slimv 2016-10-21T15:40:48Z flip214: Ie. I traced both setf and the reader function 2016-10-21T15:40:54Z flip214: thanks for reminding me! 2016-10-21T15:41:52Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T15:45:47Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T15:46:11Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2016-10-21T15:46:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T15:46:37Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-21T15:47:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T15:49:32Z ebrasca: phoe: why I need "line 26, setf-l-system-rule should be a macro"? 2016-10-21T15:51:38Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-21T15:52:08Z phoe: ebrasca: so its arguments are not evaluated. 2016-10-21T15:52:12Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T15:52:45Z phoe: In line 41 you have an unnecessary quote, ',symbol 2016-10-21T15:54:00Z phoe: additionally - things that have SETF in its name should be macros for the sake of consistency 2016-10-21T15:54:26Z phoe: though, I'd avoid using SETF in name altogether and go with DEFINE-L-SYSTEM-RULE or just DEFINE-RULE. 2016-10-21T15:54:42Z phoe: And DEFINE- stuff are all macros, too. 2016-10-21T16:00:12Z heurist`_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:01:21Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T16:01:56Z ebrasca: phoe: line 18 : "(let ((func ..." first "(functionp func" then it "(apply func ..." or do noting. 2016-10-21T16:02:36Z tristero joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:02:52Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:02:59Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T16:06:35Z Ioann quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T16:07:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:12:30Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:14:46Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:16:12Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:17:41Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T16:25:03Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T16:25:51Z groovy3shoes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T16:26:06Z Devon: I see no easy way to run a ZetaLisp program CCL, any tips? 2016-10-21T16:26:24Z H4ns: Devon: why do you think it would be possible? 2016-10-21T16:26:33Z Devon: lol 2016-10-21T16:27:03Z H4ns: because "lol"? 2016-10-21T16:28:20Z Devon: Franz Lisp has flavors but (ql:system-apropos "flavor") has none. 2016-10-21T16:29:07Z Devon: It would not be too hard but why re-invent that wheel. 2016-10-21T16:29:28Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T16:30:46Z Devon: Regardless of how, zl:defmethod and zl:make-instance will look confusing. 2016-10-21T16:32:02Z younder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T16:35:41Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-21T16:36:13Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:37:38Z KingsQuest quit (Quit: gnewsense https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-8Rd9QBlJI) 2016-10-21T16:37:56Z Devon: the readtable can be adjusted to accept #≠/NewLine and #P"//tmp" 2016-10-21T16:39:15Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:39:31Z groovy3shoes joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:39:34Z younder joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:53:21Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-21T16:54:47Z rpg: Devon: Isn't CLOS a successor to flavors? 2016-10-21T16:55:14Z rpg: I think it should be relatively easy to modify a ZL flavors-based program to use CLOS. 2016-10-21T16:55:34Z rpg: But you would definitely need to read a manual to get the relationship between Flavors and CLOS constructs. 2016-10-21T16:59:29Z jasom: rpg: I thought flavors was still a message-passing system? 2016-10-21T17:01:26Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T17:01:35Z Devon: It may be easier to define the syntax and semantics the ZL code expects. 2016-10-21T17:04:22Z Xach: Devon: what's the program do? (i can't help, i'm just curious) 2016-10-21T17:04:56Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:05:09Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-21T17:05:42Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:06:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:12:53Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T17:13:33Z jerme joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:13:54Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:14:06Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:22:54Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:26:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:26:45Z Devon: The newly-operational ΛΔ emulator runs LispM system 130 but the only remote file access so far is FTP which RG says hangs on large transfers, the usual FTP servers apparently fail to support restart, there's a C QFILE server that could be hacked to talk TCP but I'd rather see if the ZL QFILE server can run in CCL or find an NFILE (RFC 1037) server that'll run on, say, Debian. 2016-10-21T17:27:19Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:29:26Z Devon: Wondering how hard it would be for CCL or SBCL to displace 8-bit and 32-bit arrays onto each other, which would make Zeta-C more efficient. 2016-10-21T17:30:59Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T17:34:57Z oGMo: you might be able to use static-vectors for that 2016-10-21T17:35:20Z oGMo: or of course do what it does for those yourself 2016-10-21T17:36:08Z fluxit joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:41:13Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T17:43:08Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:46:14Z kcodrgkimd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T17:46:28Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-21T17:47:53Z rpg: jasom: TBH, it's been decades since I used flavors; really don't remember 2016-10-21T17:49:37Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:49:38Z rpg: but Devon cited zl:defmethod.... 2016-10-21T17:49:45Z brandonz_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-21T17:50:03Z brandonz joined #lisp 2016-10-21T17:53:50Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:01:46Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:05:03Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-21T18:05:29Z josteink joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:11:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:13:29Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:13:50Z Nathen joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:14:00Z Nathen: Why did Lisp fail? 2016-10-21T18:15:50Z cgore quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T18:15:58Z phoe: Nathen: it didn't 2016-10-21T18:16:05Z fourier: Nathen: if something lacks it original popularity it doesn't mean fail. 2016-10-21T18:16:18Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T18:16:35Z Nathen: Not only one of the least popular, but also one of the least used. 2016-10-21T18:16:49Z phoe: Nathen: doesn't mean it failed 2016-10-21T18:17:07Z phoe: but it seems you're not here with the option to change your mind 2016-10-21T18:17:16Z phoe: so 2016-10-21T18:17:29Z phoe: tl;dr I like lisp and it's giving me fun and experience, so for me, it didn't fail 2016-10-21T18:17:39Z Nathen: Why should I learn it or pay attention to Lisp? 2016-10-21T18:17:46Z rpg: I don't think this is really a productive discussion. It's been beaten to death on mailing lists, usenet, even journal articles. If you really want an answer, I'd send you that way. 2016-10-21T18:17:46Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:17:55Z phoe: Nathen: is anyone forcing you to do it? 2016-10-21T18:18:04Z phoe: because it does sound like it 2016-10-21T18:18:12Z fourier: Nathen: no you shouldn't neither learn nor pay attention :)))) relax and have a beer, its Friday after all 2016-10-21T18:18:34Z rpg: Why should you learn it? It's incredibly powerful, and if you learn it well, you can accomplish in a little lisp what will take you more work in most other languages. 2016-10-21T18:18:40Z rpg: But it has a high learning curve. 2016-10-21T18:18:59Z phoe: rpg: I disagree 2016-10-21T18:19:03Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:19:07Z rpg: Also there are some things is does really well: like symbolic computation. 2016-10-21T18:19:27Z Nathen: rpg, I don't get it, if it is such powerful, then why Lisp does not exist in industries at all? 2016-10-21T18:19:35Z phoe: Nathen: gimme a moment 2016-10-21T18:20:01Z rpg: Nathen: see my earlier response. this topic has been beaten to death elsewhere. Suggest you look for your answer there. 2016-10-21T18:20:12Z phoe: Roomba, Deep Space One, Hubble Space Telescope, Jax & Daxter series, Uncharted 1 and 2, CANDO chemistry language, ITA airfare system 2016-10-21T18:20:38Z phoe: >does not exist in industries at all 2016-10-21T18:20:56Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T18:21:00Z phoe: you have a pretty high threshold of non-existence 2016-10-21T18:21:09Z phoe: and nobody here can fix that 2016-10-21T18:21:09Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T18:21:30Z phoe: s/Jax/Jak/ 2016-10-21T18:21:49Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T18:22:16Z phoe: Do you have any more questions? 2016-10-21T18:23:25Z White_Flame: Nathen: it was the promises of the classical AI researchers that failed 2016-10-21T18:23:59Z White_Flame: (whether them, or those who were in charge of marketing & selling to .gov) 2016-10-21T18:24:09Z Nathen: Can I build a concise machine with Lisp? 2016-10-21T18:24:30Z younder: of cource 2016-10-21T18:24:49Z younder: But that is true of neraly any language 2016-10-21T18:24:52Z phoe: Is Roomba concise enough? 2016-10-21T18:25:04Z fourier: Nathen: no. and not because of Lisp. but rather because nobody understand what the consciousness is :) 2016-10-21T18:25:29Z Nathen: fourier, so it is IMPOSSIBLE? 2016-10-21T18:25:44Z younder: consise not conscious 2016-10-21T18:25:56Z White_Flame: I have no idea what's being discussed or asked at this point 2016-10-21T18:26:01Z fourier: Nathen: of course it is :) have you ever heard of philosophy of mind and mind-body problems ? :))) 2016-10-21T18:26:50Z younder: Descartes, Mind in a jar? 2016-10-21T18:26:53Z fourier: White_Flame: I guess the friday troll has arived and wants to have some fun. 2016-10-21T18:27:05Z younder: perhaps.. 2016-10-21T18:27:06Z phoe: wait 2016-10-21T18:27:10Z phoe: Nathen: concise or conscious? 2016-10-21T18:27:26Z gendl: Looks like github is down again right now (at least from where I sit). 2016-10-21T18:27:26Z phoe: because concise, I interpreted as very limited in space and power, embedded. 2016-10-21T18:27:30Z gendl: more reason to move CL projects to gitlab.common-lisp.net ! 2016-10-21T18:27:39Z Nathen: fourier, asking random questions does not make a troll. If you uncomfortable, then leave, please. 2016-10-21T18:27:43Z phoe: gendl: there's an ongoing attack. More websites is affected. 2016-10-21T18:27:55Z phoe: s/is/are/ 2016-10-21T18:28:14Z Nathen: gendl, it is down here also, I am in Iraq-Kurdistan. 2016-10-21T18:28:15Z White_Flame: Nathen: the content of the questions does make it, though 2016-10-21T18:28:30Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T18:28:31Z o`connor_: Nathen: you can only write conscious AI programs in Idris. 2016-10-21T18:28:49Z younder: github works where I am in Norway 2016-10-21T18:28:52Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-21T18:29:00Z klltkr: gendl: It's up for me 2016-10-21T18:29:02Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:29:03Z fourier: works for me as well 2016-10-21T18:29:05Z oGMo: how is it everyone read "concise" as "conscious" 2016-10-21T18:29:08Z jasom: younder: the dyn attack mostly affected the US east coast; should be over now. 2016-10-21T18:29:11Z klltkr: But everything has been slow today 2016-10-21T18:29:21Z klltkr: And I don't think it's just my crap internet connection 2016-10-21T18:29:27Z o`connor_: oGMo: oh, I just read everyone else and figured it was mispelled. 2016-10-21T18:29:36Z phoe: klltkr: fourier: younder: it's jumping up and down because of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12759697 2016-10-21T18:29:48Z Nathen: I meant Conscious\ 2016-10-21T18:30:02Z White_Flame: Nathen: that subject has nothing to do with programming languages, though 2016-10-21T18:30:03Z phoe: Nathen: define "consciousness" 2016-10-21T18:30:10Z phoe: I don't know what you mean by that 2016-10-21T18:30:23Z fkac hands out sweaters for the AI winter 2016-10-21T18:30:24Z oGMo: then that's even worse -.- 2016-10-21T18:30:30Z raydeejay: (defvar consciousness) 2016-10-21T18:30:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:30:32Z raydeejay wins 2016-10-21T18:30:36Z fourier: haha 2016-10-21T18:30:39Z oGMo: heh 2016-10-21T18:30:43Z phoe: raydeejay: well 2016-10-21T18:30:44Z phoe: uh 2016-10-21T18:30:47Z phoe: it's still unbound 2016-10-21T18:30:48Z Nathen: phoe, state of having feeling. 2016-10-21T18:30:48Z fkac: Should it not be a macro instead? 2016-10-21T18:30:51Z oGMo: jasom: still can't reach github here 2016-10-21T18:30:56Z raydeejay: you only specified defining it 2016-10-21T18:30:56Z phoe: Nathen: define "feeling" 2016-10-21T18:30:58Z raydeejay: :D 2016-10-21T18:31:00Z phoe: I don't know what you mean by it 2016-10-21T18:31:05Z phoe: raydeejay: okay, catch. [+] 2016-10-21T18:31:16Z fkac: (with-feelings (phoe) ...) 2016-10-21T18:31:18Z jasom: oGMo: oh, I wonder if there was a third round of attacks 2016-10-21T18:31:29Z younder: consiosness is a whole can of beans.. cool but off-topic 2016-10-21T18:31:30Z Nathen: phoe, feeling is.... ahhhh...... 2016-10-21T18:31:37Z fkac: Nathen: Nice definition 2016-10-21T18:31:42Z fkac: Descriptive 2016-10-21T18:31:44Z oGMo: jasom: not sure 2016-10-21T18:31:51Z phoe: Nathen: (defun consciousness () "ahhhh......") 2016-10-21T18:31:55Z fkac nods 2016-10-21T18:32:05Z phoe: there you go 2016-10-21T18:32:11Z fourier: +1 2016-10-21T18:32:31Z younder: I would call it an auto-epistemic belief model ;) 2016-10-21T18:32:32Z raydeejay: what's the opposite of "enlightening"? 2016-10-21T18:32:43Z White_Flame: endarkening 2016-10-21T18:32:44Z phoe: raydeejay: power outage 2016-10-21T18:32:48Z oGMo: raydeejay: this conversation? 2016-10-21T18:32:51Z raydeejay: ^ 2016-10-21T18:32:54Z Nathen: phoe, consciousness is state of having feelings. feeling or feel is setting things in different levels. 2016-10-21T18:33:18Z White_Flame: Nathen: give a technical description of consciousness or feelings, one that can be crafted into computer programming code 2016-10-21T18:33:21Z rpg: Nathen: I think you want #qualia 2016-10-21T18:33:29Z phoe: Nathen: define "levels" 2016-10-21T18:33:33Z phoe: I don't know what you mean by it 2016-10-21T18:34:30Z fourier: troll the troll :) 2016-10-21T18:34:39Z younder: rotfl 2016-10-21T18:34:44Z Nathen: phoe, "different level", for example, if you have two girlfriend, one of them are ugly and one of them is beautiful, which one you will choose? of course, the beautiful one, because you have been programmed in that way, by nature. 2016-10-21T18:34:52Z dwc: nivåer 2016-10-21T18:35:01Z phoe: oh, I can do that 2016-10-21T18:35:14Z younder: dwc: You are norwegian? 2016-10-21T18:35:27Z fkac: He might be Danish instead 2016-10-21T18:35:28Z dwc: nei, jeg er amerikansk 2016-10-21T18:35:37Z Nathen: phoe, nature programmed me to be angry and stupid, it is unchangeable. 2016-10-21T18:35:42Z younder: dwc: jeg også 2016-10-21T18:35:54Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T18:36:05Z fourier: "også" is it danish ? 2016-10-21T18:36:10Z fkac: Yep 2016-10-21T18:36:13Z fkac: Not "nei" though 2016-10-21T18:36:14Z Nathen: phoe, can you stop government from doing evil? Absolutely no 2016-10-21T18:36:24Z Nathen: phoe, any questions? 2016-10-21T18:36:24Z fourier: yep should be "nej" I guess 2016-10-21T18:36:27Z dwc: fourier: danish and written norwegian are very, very similar 2016-10-21T18:36:29Z rpg: dwc, younder : how do you come to know Norwegian? [we're hosting a Norwegian exchange student this year, so curious] 2016-10-21T18:36:29Z fkac nods 2016-10-21T18:36:33Z younder: Danish Norwehain and Swedish. 2016-10-21T18:36:35Z phoe: gimme a moment 2016-10-21T18:36:53Z dwc: rpg: just wanted to lean 2016-10-21T18:37:02Z dwc: learn* 2016-10-21T18:37:24Z rpg: I'm in Minnesota, which has a substantially Scandinavian population. 2016-10-21T18:37:24Z phoe: (defun consciousness (gf-1 gf-2) (if (> (beauty gf-1) (beauty gf-2)) gf-1 gf-2)) 2016-10-21T18:37:26Z phoe: there 2016-10-21T18:37:27Z younder: dwc: I have liven in Norway since 1970, but I was born in California 2016-10-21T18:37:32Z gendl: apparently it's an attack on Dyn going on right now. 2016-10-21T18:37:39Z phoe: consciousness as a function of two arguments that picks the more beautiful girlfriend 2016-10-21T18:37:48Z phoe: so yes, you can write a conscious program 2016-10-21T18:37:53Z phoe: given your definitions 2016-10-21T18:38:08Z phoe: if you have more examples, just add them there 2016-10-21T18:38:22Z rpg: phoe: (first (sort .... :key 'beauty)) 2016-10-21T18:38:22Z younder needs a beautiful girlfriend then 2016-10-21T18:38:25Z Nathen: phoe, I can create a conscious machine, but the only person is preventing me from doing that, is God. 2016-10-21T18:38:30Z phoe: rpg: ooh, that 2016-10-21T18:38:37Z phoe: Nathen: I don't know such a person 2016-10-21T18:38:38Z dwc: younder: what part do you live in? 2016-10-21T18:38:39Z younder: OMG.. 2016-10-21T18:38:44Z phoe: rpg: thanks for the refactor 2016-10-21T18:38:48Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-21T18:39:00Z phoe: actually 2016-10-21T18:39:07Z phoe: I wish #'MAX took :key arguments 2016-10-21T18:39:08Z White_Flame: Nathen: then you should write down the complete, detailed specs and have somebody else create it 2016-10-21T18:39:09Z younder: dwc: Oslo area (rykkin) 2016-10-21T18:39:22Z phoe: now I have to (apply #'max (mapcar #'beauty gfs)) 2016-10-21T18:39:25Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:39:31Z phoe: and even then I only have the maximum value 2016-10-21T18:39:47Z dwc: younder: ok, so no dialekt to worry about ;) 2016-10-21T18:39:53Z Nathen: phoe, are you satisfied to my definitions? 2016-10-21T18:39:57Z younder: dwc: nop 2016-10-21T18:39:59Z phoe: Nathen: I don't care 2016-10-21T18:40:03Z phoe: I wasn't asking for definitions 2016-10-21T18:40:03Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T18:40:08Z phoe: I only asked for them to answer your question 2016-10-21T18:40:19Z rpg: phoe: Does LOOP or ITERATE do what you want? Like does MAXIMIZE take an argument that lets you stash the corresponding entry based on a function you are maximizing? 2016-10-21T18:40:30Z Nathen: phoe, what do you want, exactly? 2016-10-21T18:40:32Z White_Flame: phoe: pretty sure you were asking for definitions ;) 2016-10-21T18:40:48Z phoe: rpg: oh! thanks. 2016-10-21T18:40:55Z phoe: White_Flame: well, actually, correct 2016-10-21T18:41:05Z phoe: Nathen: I don't want anything, I was just trying to answer your questions to the best of my ability 2016-10-21T18:41:07Z varjag: younder: too many damn scandis around! 2016-10-21T18:41:10Z varjag is in bergen 2016-10-21T18:42:01Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2016-10-21T18:42:05Z Nathen: phoe, if I create a conscious machine (complete true-AI or whatever you are calling it), am I gonna be rich and popular? 2016-10-21T18:42:29Z phoe: Nathen: I don't know 2016-10-21T18:42:40Z varjag: chance of that is so miniscule you shouldn't be concerned 2016-10-21T18:42:54Z phoe: too many factors go into account for that to be easily computable 2016-10-21T18:42:56Z rpg: phoe: FINDING MAXIMIZING in ITERATE 2016-10-21T18:42:58Z White_Flame: judging by how it normally goes, gaining richness and popularity are separate skills from your product 2016-10-21T18:43:09Z younder: Nathen, Yes, you would! 2016-10-21T18:43:12Z phoe: rpg: thanks! 2016-10-21T18:43:28Z rpg: phoe: Figured I'd get *something* good out of this discussion. 2016-10-21T18:43:34Z phoe: rpg: TIL. 2016-10-21T18:43:35Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:43:51Z phoe: is it actually possible in standard LOOP using its standard keywords? 2016-10-21T18:44:00Z White_Flame: Nathen: however, if you believe you have the ability to do something like that, you should do it for its own saek 2016-10-21T18:44:06Z younder: Nathen, You would probaly be on half of the religios world kill list as well ;) 2016-10-21T18:44:14Z raydeejay: and name it Skynet 2016-10-21T18:44:25Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:44:41Z younder: naw skynet's so termie 2016-10-21T18:44:48Z rpg: phoe: I dunno; I've given up on standard LOOP. 2016-10-21T18:45:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T18:45:08Z younder: iterate is cooler 2016-10-21T18:45:16Z phoe: rpg: and I've been doing loop for some time and I've grown to like it. 2016-10-21T18:45:22Z phoe: maybe I should use more iterate. 2016-10-21T18:45:25Z rpg: younder: ITERATE is better indented! ;-) 2016-10-21T18:45:30Z phoe: and more parens! 2016-10-21T18:45:34Z fourier: phoe: looks like maximize in loop could do it 2016-10-21T18:45:40Z phoe: oh, wait 2016-10-21T18:45:52Z rpg: phoe: Give it a try! It gets laid out better, and it doesn't have that horrible conditional construct. 2016-10-21T18:45:55Z phoe: loop for x maximize (beauty x) something like that? 2016-10-21T18:45:58Z phoe: rpg: I know, I know 2016-10-21T18:46:03Z phoe: I've been using it, I know how it works 2016-10-21T18:46:03Z fourier: yep 2016-10-21T18:46:08Z rpg: Other than that, it has all the LOOP goodness 2016-10-21T18:46:27Z phoe: fourier: ...no 2016-10-21T18:46:33Z fourier: (loop for x in lst maximize (round x)) 2016-10-21T18:46:51Z phoe: (loop for x in '(1 2 3 -4 5 -6) maximize (abs x)) 2016-10-21T18:46:53Z phoe: this returns 6 2016-10-21T18:46:54Z phoe: not -6 2016-10-21T18:47:10Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:47:14Z phoe: I want the original object, not its #'abs 2016-10-21T18:47:21Z Nathen: I need to talk to someone here about AI, who can I "query" with? 2016-10-21T18:47:41Z fourier: Nathen: query wikipedia 2016-10-21T18:47:44Z phoe: Nathen: #ai 2016-10-21T18:47:50Z phoe: might be able to help you better 2016-10-21T18:47:58Z Nathen: phoe, #ai not available. 2016-10-21T18:48:03Z jasom: phoe: iterate has a clause that can do it, but with loop you'd have to do it manually 2016-10-21T18:48:14Z Nathen: phoe, can I talk to you, alone. 2016-10-21T18:48:21Z fourier: phoe: yes it returns transformed value.. 2016-10-21T18:48:31Z phoe: Nathen: it is available to me 2016-10-21T18:48:34Z phoe: I mean, I can join it 2016-10-21T18:48:36Z phoe: Nathen: why? 2016-10-21T18:48:52Z jasom: phoe: (iterate (for el in '(1 2 3 -4 5 -6) find el minimizing (abs el)) 2016-10-21T18:49:08Z jasom: s/minimizing/maximizing 2016-10-21T18:49:16Z jasom: bak 2016-10-21T18:49:34Z jasom: (iterate (for el in '(1 2 3 -4 5 -6) (finding el maximizing (abs el)) 2016-10-21T18:49:36Z pseudonymous quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-10-21T18:49:50Z phoe: jasom: FINDING is what LOOP is missingg 2016-10-21T18:49:52Z phoe: <3 2016-10-21T18:49:54Z phoe: wait 2016-10-21T18:49:56Z pseud joined #lisp 2016-10-21T18:50:01Z phoe: no, correct 2016-10-21T18:50:27Z jasom: (iterate (for el in '(1 2 3 -4 5 -6)) (finding el maximizing (abs el))) ; actually correct parens 2016-10-21T18:50:44Z fourier: phoe: (loop for x in '(1.4 5.1 -5.7) maximize (abs x) finally (return x)) 2016-10-21T18:51:00Z jasom: fourier: that doesn't work 2016-10-21T18:51:04Z fourier: phoe: no this doesn't work :(( 2016-10-21T18:51:07Z phoe: fourier: (loop for x in '(-3000 1.4 5.1 -5.7) maximize (abs x) finally (return x)) 2016-10-21T18:51:21Z fourier: yes I see 2016-10-21T18:52:26Z rpg: phoe: TBH I don't know if X is even bound in FINALLY, but if it was, it would be bound to -5.7 2016-10-21T18:52:36Z phoe: rpg: yes, that's the issue. 2016-10-21T18:52:53Z jasom: (loop with maxv and maxa for item in '(1 2 3 -4 5 -6) for aitem = (abs item) when (or null maxa) (> aitem maxa) do (setf maxv item maxa aitem) finally (return maxv)) 2016-10-21T18:53:04Z rpg: It's interesting, other LOOP constructs have what you want (e.g., the INDEX operator for iterating over arrays) 2016-10-21T18:53:25Z phoe: jasom: (find-max gfs :key #'beauty) 2016-10-21T18:53:32Z fourier: jasom: of course you could do it manually :) but it is not a fun, we are looking for build-in facility :) 2016-10-21T18:53:34Z phoe: rpg: is it? 2016-10-21T18:54:25Z jasom: rpg: all variables introduced in loop are bound for the entire body only once 2016-10-21T18:54:27Z klltkr quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-21T18:54:39Z jasom: rpg: they are set, not rebound, on each iteration. 2016-10-21T18:55:05Z phoe: sigh 2016-10-21T18:55:14Z phoe: I just want a (find-max girlfriends :key #'beauty) 2016-10-21T18:55:29Z phoe: time to write a new CDR 2016-10-21T18:55:42Z phoe: oh wait 2016-10-21T18:55:45Z phoe: #'MAXIMIZE 2016-10-21T18:55:53Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T18:56:19Z fourier: why write cdr ? does any supplier every implemented them? 2016-10-21T18:56:23Z phoe: fourier: no 2016-10-21T18:56:24Z phoe: but it's fun 2016-10-21T18:56:34Z phoe: also, just in case the Hypothetical Future Revision ever happens 2016-10-21T18:56:40Z phoe: but no, actually 2016-10-21T18:57:15Z phoe: I'd write a #'MAXIMIZE and #'MINIMIZE and try to push them into Alexandria because they seem like the things one might write themselves way too often. 2016-10-21T18:57:22Z phoe: IMO it's a good idea. 2016-10-21T18:57:25Z phoe: but again, I might be stupid. 2016-10-21T18:58:43Z phoe: what do you think, #lisp? 2016-10-21T19:00:01Z jasom: I agree that alexandria is a good place for them. 2016-10-21T19:00:04Z fourier: go for it! 2016-10-21T19:01:18Z White_Flame: I'd be a bit more abstract and pass in #'> and #'< to a single function, than have separate MAXIMIZE and MINIMIZE 2016-10-21T19:02:55Z phoe: White_Flame: I was thinking the same way 2016-10-21T19:03:07Z phoe: but then I ended up having two questions 2016-10-21T19:03:25Z White_Flame: very similar to (reduce #'> girlfriends :key #'beauty) 2016-10-21T19:03:32Z phoe: 1) how do I name it? MINIMIZE and MAXIMIZE are intuitive as they're analogous to < and >. 2016-10-21T19:03:47Z rpg: OPTIMIZE? 2016-10-21T19:03:58Z White_Flame: yeah, optimize came to mind, but is a bit overloaded 2016-10-21T19:04:08Z White_Flame: reduce-items maybe? 2016-10-21T19:04:13Z phoe: worse 2016-10-21T19:04:13Z phoe: Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when 2016-10-21T19:04:13Z phoe: proclaiming OPTIMIZE as a function while in package 2016-10-21T19:04:14Z phoe: L-SYSTEM-EXAMPLES. 2016-10-21T19:04:14Z rpg: Actually ARGMIN and ARGMAX would be better than MINIMIZE and MAXIMIZE 2016-10-21T19:04:16Z dwc: M??IMIZE 2016-10-21T19:04:22Z dwc: tee hee hee 2016-10-21T19:04:27Z phoe: rpg: OPTIMIZE is locked. 2016-10-21T19:04:29Z White_Flame: find-best 2016-10-21T19:04:37Z rpg: FIND-BEST is good. 2016-10-21T19:04:39Z phoe: FIND-BEST. 2016-10-21T19:04:49Z phoe: (find-best girlfriends :key #'beauty) 2016-10-21T19:04:52Z phoe: XD 2016-10-21T19:05:00Z rpg: Should probably return 2 values -- the best and the metric value 2016-10-21T19:05:04Z raydeejay: FIND-MANY 2016-10-21T19:05:05Z phoe: #'BEAUTY is the key. 2016-10-21T19:05:15Z phoe: raydeejay: no, we want only one value, the "best" 2016-10-21T19:05:21Z phoe: but wait 2016-10-21T19:05:25Z phoe: one more thing 2016-10-21T19:05:32Z phoe: White_Flame: there's an issue I see 2016-10-21T19:05:36Z rpg: (defun trump (words) (find-best words)) 2016-10-21T19:05:43Z rpg: I will have the best words! 2016-10-21T19:06:02Z phoe: We'll need two values here. 2016-10-21T19:06:05Z phoe: :KEY and :TEST. 2016-10-21T19:06:07Z rpg is ashamed, but couldn't resist 2016-10-21T19:06:18Z White_Flame: yes 2016-10-21T19:06:22Z phoe: (find-best girlfriend :key #'beauty :test #'>) 2016-10-21T19:06:34Z phoe: unless we default :key to #'IDENTITY and :test to #'> 2016-10-21T19:06:44Z phoe: what do you think about these defaults? 2016-10-21T19:06:47Z White_Flame: I'd make it like reduce, where it's (find-best &key ...) 2016-10-21T19:07:05Z phoe: I can see it 2016-10-21T19:07:11Z White_Flame: though I guess it does make sense verbally to default the test to #'> 2016-10-21T19:07:17Z phoe: but it's somewhat less intuitive for me 2016-10-21T19:07:20Z White_Flame: as that's the default "best" key 2016-10-21T19:07:20Z phoe: than #'MAXIMIZE for example 2016-10-21T19:07:37Z phoe: MAXIMIZE can work on numerical values, which are fairly natural when you're measuring stuff 2016-10-21T19:07:38Z rpg: Actually if I was going to have a single mandatory argument, I'd make it be the KEY 2016-10-21T19:07:48Z jasom: (defun maximize (&optional (key #'identity)) (lambda (a b) (if (< a b) b a))) 2016-10-21T19:08:00Z jasom: (reduce (maximize #'beauty) foo) 2016-10-21T19:08:04Z phoe: jasom: you don't want to return the lambda 2016-10-21T19:08:05Z phoe: oh 2016-10-21T19:08:06Z phoe: that 2016-10-21T19:08:20Z phoe: oooh 2016-10-21T19:08:40Z phoe: you do't use a key in there 2016-10-21T19:09:00Z phoe: but #'REDUCE #'MAXIMIZE does sound like overkill 2016-10-21T19:09:02Z jasom: (defun maximize (&optional (key #'identity)) (lambda (a b) (if (< (funcall key a) (funcall key b)) b a))) 2016-10-21T19:09:05Z josteink joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:09:26Z jasom: (reduce (maximize #'abs) '(1 2 3 -4 5 -6)) ; => -6 2016-10-21T19:09:37Z phoe: (maximize #'beauty foo) sounds somewhat better 2016-10-21T19:09:41Z phoe: it could reduce internally 2016-10-21T19:09:59Z phoe: and we're back to where we started 2016-10-21T19:10:02Z jasom: just brainstorming alternate ideas; if maximize is useful outside of reduce, it might be gould 2016-10-21T19:10:42Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:11:54Z jasom: (setf (maximize test place1 place2) foo) could be equivalent to the following but only evaluating the place forms once: (if (> (test place1) (test place2)) (setf place1 foo) (setf place2 foo) 2016-10-21T19:12:11Z phoe: MAXIMIZE sounds good for me because it's very natural 2016-10-21T19:12:21Z phoe: (maximize #'gold-in-bank players) 2016-10-21T19:12:29Z phoe: gets the player with most gold in bank 2016-10-21T19:12:33Z phoe: s/gets/returns/ 2016-10-21T19:13:04Z rpg: phoe: See earlier comment -- that's really ARGMAX, not maximize.... 2016-10-21T19:13:26Z phoe: rpg: ARGMAX? 2016-10-21T19:13:43Z phoe: oh, I see. 2016-10-21T19:13:57Z jasom: maximal-elt? 2016-10-21T19:13:57Z rpg: yup. 2016-10-21T19:14:23Z rpg: CL uses "MAXIMIZE" already to mean "find and return the maximum value," so it's better to have a less ambiguous name 2016-10-21T19:14:36Z rpg: jasom: BEST-ELT? 2016-10-21T19:14:41Z jasom: elt == "get element N from sequence" maximal-let == "get maximal element from sequence" 2016-10-21T19:14:58Z phoe: maximal-let sounds like some really weird LET 2016-10-21T19:15:00Z rpg: assuming that we have a function that can find the maximal or minimal 2016-10-21T19:15:05Z jasom: rpg: best if you can customize the test and the key, maximal if it always uses #'> 2016-10-21T19:15:31Z rpg: still prefer argmax, but whatever. 2016-10-21T19:15:48Z phoe: #'MOST 2016-10-21T19:16:02Z rpg: MOSTEST 2016-10-21T19:16:09Z phoe: (most #'> numbers) 2016-10-21T19:16:50Z phoe: I'll be really worried the moment (eql (most #'> numbers) (mostest #'> numbers)) will evaluate to NIL 2016-10-21T19:16:51Z rpg: phoe: I kind of hate that, because the whole point of this is that you are finding the best-element, so the KEY should be mandatory, not the comparison. 2016-10-21T19:17:14Z phoe: rpg: blah, wait 2016-10-21T19:17:21Z phoe: I ended up running in circles 2016-10-21T19:17:30Z phoe: you're right 2016-10-21T19:17:51Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:18:22Z White_Flame: and back to FIND-BEST :) 2016-10-21T19:18:25Z phoe: xD 2016-10-21T19:18:31Z rpg: I.e., I'd be happy with either (defun best-element (key set &key (test '<) ...) or (defun best-element (set) &key (test '<) (key 'identity)) 2016-10-21T19:18:47Z rpg: FIND-BEST is also a reasonable choice 2016-10-21T19:18:53Z phoe: rpg: doesn't have to be a set 2016-10-21T19:18:57Z phoe: can be a list 2016-10-21T19:19:13Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T19:19:24Z phoe: and, if there are elements that score "the same", the function may return any of them 2016-10-21T19:19:41Z phoe: as long as the test creates any order on the elements 2016-10-21T19:21:18Z phoe: if you want a more precise result, give the function a more precise predicate 2016-10-21T19:21:24Z phoe: s/predicate/test/ 2016-10-21T19:21:44Z rpg: phoe: Isn't a set always implemented as a list? 2016-10-21T19:21:48Z jasom: find-best-element-from-sequence 2016-10-21T19:21:51Z rpg: As in UNION, INTERSECTION 2016-10-21T19:21:55Z rpg: jasom: ugh 2016-10-21T19:21:55Z phoe: rpg: it's not about implementation 2016-10-21T19:22:05Z phoe: I want to be able to pass a (9 0 1 2 3 4 9) 2016-10-21T19:22:07Z phoe: which is NOT a set 2016-10-21T19:22:13Z phoe: and still get a 9 out of it 2016-10-21T19:22:20Z phoe: doesn't matter whether it's the first 9 or the last 9 2016-10-21T19:22:23Z phoe: I want 9 2016-10-21T19:22:27Z phoe: despite that list not being a set 2016-10-21T19:22:27Z rpg: I guess.... 2016-10-21T19:22:47Z phoe: like - if they're equivalent, I don't care which one I get 2016-10-21T19:22:50Z rpg: I kinda hate these examples where you have a degenerate, key-less version of FIND-BEST... 2016-10-21T19:23:11Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:23:11Z rpg: I suppose I see the point about permitting multisets, though 2016-10-21T19:23:58Z phoe: so, basically 2016-10-21T19:24:04Z rpg: If you cared, you could add FROM-END and specify returning the first maximal item found 2016-10-21T19:24:16Z phoe: rpg: first maximal item? 2016-10-21T19:24:29Z jasom: find-best or best-elt are probably the best if you pass test and key (from end, start and end would be good as well) 2016-10-21T19:24:31Z rpg: Yes, you MUST return the first element with the maximal value 2016-10-21T19:24:32Z phoe: this depends on your definition of "maximal" 2016-10-21T19:24:45Z phoe: since (> 9 9) => NIL and (>= 9 9) => T 2016-10-21T19:24:49Z jasom: but if you use either of those names it ought to work on sequences. 2016-10-21T19:25:12Z phoe: rpg: this is not the issue with FIND-BeST 2016-10-21T19:25:16Z phoe: it's the issue with predicates 2016-10-21T19:25:22Z rpg: phoe: I don't think you should FIND-BEST with respect to a partial order. 2016-10-21T19:25:32Z phoe: rpg: therefore we have the multiset problem 2016-10-21T19:25:37Z rpg: that kinda doesn't make sense 2016-10-21T19:25:55Z phoe: oh, right 2016-10-21T19:26:06Z jasom: best-member is probably best if you want to work on just lists. 2016-10-21T19:26:25Z phoe: FIND-BEST will return the first found maximal element only if :TEST is a strict order 2016-10-21T19:26:32Z rpg: So the idea of requiring the first one is that you can have a structure where you push things on the front and want values in front to shadow values in the back. 2016-10-21T19:26:32Z phoe: otherwise it may return any of them 2016-10-21T19:26:52Z phoe: rpg: O(N) memory complexity isn't something I'd like 2016-10-21T19:27:13Z phoe: and having a (9 9 9 9 ... 9) list sounds like such a case 2016-10-21T19:27:18Z jasom: find-best predicate sequence &key from-end start end key 2016-10-21T19:27:29Z phoe: do we actually need anything other than first and last best elements? 2016-10-21T19:27:29Z rpg: What I'm talking about is standard behavior for alists. 2016-10-21T19:28:12Z k4rtik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T19:28:39Z rpg: jasom: That looks nice. 2016-10-21T19:28:49Z phoe: jasom: what's START for? 2016-10-21T19:29:06Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:29:08Z rpg: Except I STILL hate it that the PREDICATE is mandatory and KEY is optional. That is just topsy-turvy for what we are doing here! 2016-10-21T19:29:16Z phoe: rpg: :P 2016-10-21T19:29:17Z jasom: (find-best #'> '(3 2 1) :start 1) ; => 2 2016-10-21T19:29:23Z phoe: oh, I see 2016-10-21T19:29:27Z rpg: ugh. 2016-10-21T19:29:29Z jasom: rpg: there is no "best" predicate that makes sense as default 2016-10-21T19:29:45Z rpg: jasom: Maximizing makes perfect sense as a default 2016-10-21T19:29:56Z phoe: unless we're working with numbers, at which case, I'd call it FIND-MAX 2016-10-21T19:30:00Z rpg: And doing argmax identity is just dumb 2016-10-21T19:30:27Z isoraqathedh: Can a running Lisp program tell that it's connected to Swank or not? 2016-10-21T19:30:29Z jasom: rpg: might still be clearer than (reduce #'max ...) 2016-10-21T19:30:35Z jasom: isoraqathedh: yes 2016-10-21T19:30:35Z rpg: No. 2016-10-21T19:30:41Z rpg: I disagree. 2016-10-21T19:31:02Z rpg: REDUCE MAX makes it clear that you are just finding the MAX. This is a function specifically for finding the BEST. 2016-10-21T19:31:10Z phoe: isoraqathedh: (swank:connection-info) ? 2016-10-21T19:31:21Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T19:31:23Z rpg: So you should use the least powerful construct that matches to make your code more understandable... 2016-10-21T19:31:30Z phoe: (reduce (best #'beauty) girlfriends) 2016-10-21T19:31:30Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-21T19:31:32Z isoraqathedh: It do something weird if it's not connected though. 2016-10-21T19:31:44Z phoe: whaddaya guys think? 2016-10-21T19:31:47Z rpg: That's why I think the KEY is the heart of this, not the comparison. 2016-10-21T19:31:56Z jasom: phoe: isn't that what I said like 10 minutes ago? 2016-10-21T19:32:04Z rpg: The key is what sets FIND-BEST apart from just maximizing. 2016-10-21T19:32:10Z josteink joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:32:22Z isoraqathedh: Like, if Swank isn't loaded, calling that will error out. 2016-10-21T19:32:23Z phoe: jasom: it is 2016-10-21T19:32:28Z phoe: oh 2016-10-21T19:32:35Z phoe: isoraqathedh: isn't even loaded? 2016-10-21T19:32:37Z isoraqathedh: Not entirely sure if that's a thing that you want. 2016-10-21T19:32:50Z jasom: then: find-best key sequence &key from-end start end test 2016-10-21T19:32:54Z phoe: (find-package :swank) 2016-10-21T19:32:59Z isoraqathedh: Ah. 2016-10-21T19:33:20Z jasom: (member :swank *features*) 2016-10-21T19:33:53Z isoraqathedh: My specific use case is: I want the debugger to run if I'm viewing the program via SLIME or similar, but not when executing the program directly from shell. 2016-10-21T19:33:54Z phoe: but Swank can be loaded 2016-10-21T19:34:16Z phoe: isoraqathedh: SETF the debugger behaviour in swank's RC 2016-10-21T19:34:28Z rpg: isoraqathedh: what do you want to have happen if you are running from the shell? 2016-10-21T19:34:42Z jasom: isoraqathedh: sbcl can disable the debugger as part of the execution command 2016-10-21T19:34:51Z isoraqathedh: The entire program should die if a condition is not handled. 2016-10-21T19:34:51Z phoe: jasom: it is. 2016-10-21T19:34:55Z isoraqathedh: Yes. 2016-10-21T19:35:10Z rpg: You could also wrap the program in a handler-bind if it's run from the shell, logging errors and keeping the debugger from being invoked 2016-10-21T19:35:16Z isoraqathedh: But I don't want to disable the debugger if I'm looking at it from inside emacs. 2016-10-21T19:35:29Z isoraqathedh: (Or whatever else thing that I use to develop the program.) 2016-10-21T19:35:42Z rpg: I think my proposal addresses that problem 2016-10-21T19:36:24Z phoe: I'd actually keep it at (reduce (best #'beauty) girlfriends) 2016-10-21T19:36:42Z isoraqathedh: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329182 2016-10-21T19:36:46Z phoe: because REDUCE already has :key :from-end :start :end 2016-10-21T19:36:49Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T19:37:02Z isoraqathedh: What should be put in place of t? 2016-10-21T19:37:31Z phoe: and BEST takes a one-argument function and returns a two-argument function 2016-10-21T19:37:37Z jasom: phoe: reduce with a key is unhelpful for best 2016-10-21T19:38:07Z phoe: oh wait 2016-10-21T19:38:09Z rpg: isoraqathedh: Why don't you just call the function differently? 2016-10-21T19:38:25Z phoe: jasom: it might be helpful though 2016-10-21T19:38:33Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:38:34Z phoe: the :KEY in reduce is what we apply to arguments before comparison 2016-10-21T19:38:34Z isoraqathedh: rpg: Why don't I? Good question… 2016-10-21T19:38:39Z rpg: I.e., call (main :interactive t) 2016-10-21T19:38:43Z isoraqathedh: I dunno, maybe I should fix it like that then. 2016-10-21T19:39:02Z phoe: unless, hum 2016-10-21T19:39:05Z rpg: It's less cool than figuring out the context automagically, but it's a lot easier. 2016-10-21T19:39:15Z isoraqathedh: main is called from the command line, so args is a list of strings. 2016-10-21T19:39:25Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:39:26Z Nathen quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-10-21T19:39:42Z rpg: isoraqathedh: But if you're in SLIME you won't be calling MAIN the same way, will you? 2016-10-21T19:40:07Z isoraqathedh: Well right now what I do is simply ignore MAIN completely and call SETUP first and then LOAD-SCRIPT as necessary. 2016-10-21T19:40:20Z rpg: Then you're done! 2016-10-21T19:40:27Z isoraqathedh: Well then. 2016-10-21T19:40:57Z rpg: I've done this myself in cases where I want a non-interactive program to log errors to a file, and try to CONTINUE whenever possible. 2016-10-21T19:41:02Z isoraqathedh: I'm sure that lambda is what you do when you want to exit on error, yes? 2016-10-21T19:41:06Z warweasle quit (Quit: Got to go. Bye!) 2016-10-21T19:41:10Z rpg: But I also want to be able to debug 2016-10-21T19:41:53Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:41:57Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-21T19:42:03Z rpg: isoraqathedh: I think so. I don't remember off-hand. Isn't it UIOP:QUIT ? 2016-10-21T19:42:12Z rpg: or exit? I can never remember 2016-10-21T19:42:54Z isoraqathedh: It's either quit or die. 2016-10-21T19:43:00Z phoe: (defun best (key &optional (test #'<)) (lambda (a b) (if (funcall test (funcall key a) (funcall key b)) b a))) 2016-10-21T19:43:00Z isoraqathedh: I don't know the exact behaviour of each. 2016-10-21T19:43:22Z phoe: or, uh 2016-10-21T19:43:29Z isoraqathedh: Just putting it on Google has a lot of false positives. 2016-10-21T19:43:36Z White_Flame: also, for reduce, that lambda needs to be able to take 0 args as well 2016-10-21T19:44:05Z isoraqathedh: die allows you to write one error message and exit with a code, I think; quit just lets you exit with a code. 2016-10-21T19:44:11Z k4rtik joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:44:28Z phoe: yes, I'd actually prefer to have :KEY as a must-be argument 2016-10-21T19:45:04Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T19:46:19Z isoraqathedh: There has to be some way for the function to inherit any keyword arguments from a (perhaps specially-marked) function inside it. 2016-10-21T19:46:49Z phoe: inside it? 2016-10-21T19:47:18Z isoraqathedh: In your case, I would say that #'best should inherit some keyword arguments from, say, #'reduce, or similar. 2016-10-21T19:47:24Z beaky: hello 2016-10-21T19:47:27Z phoe: beaky: hey 2016-10-21T19:47:39Z beaky: what are good ways to reduce the over-reliance of LAMBDA 2016-10-21T19:48:02Z isoraqathedh: Why don't you like lambda? 2016-10-21T19:49:43Z beaky: lambdas are great but maybe for some things a macro is better? 2016-10-21T19:49:54Z beaky: e.g. passing in a chunk of code to another function 2016-10-21T19:50:16Z dwc: there are always choices 2016-10-21T19:50:54Z dwc: but when you say "over-reliance" you imply lambda is used in situations where it would be better to use something else? 2016-10-21T19:51:02Z beaky: yes 2016-10-21T19:51:05Z phoe: okay 2016-10-21T19:51:06Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329183 2016-10-21T19:51:31Z phoe: wait, I forgot the colors 2016-10-21T19:51:34Z dwc: beaky: do you have a concrete example? 2016-10-21T19:51:54Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329184 2016-10-21T19:52:24Z phoe: okay 2016-10-21T19:52:27Z phoe: docstring will be like 2016-10-21T19:52:30Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:53:21Z beaky: yes for example the choice between "(defun f (g) (g)) (f (lambda () (a b c)))" and "(defmacro f (&rest g) `(progn ,@g)) (f a b c)" 2016-10-21T19:53:44Z phoe: BEST, by default, assumes that the values given by KEY will be numbers comparable by #'<. If this behaviour is not desired, it is overridable by providing the optional TEST argument that accepts the elements of a particular type. 2016-10-21T19:53:50Z jasom: Here's my current way of running sbcl as a shell script; yes I should probably use cl-launch at this point: http://paste.lisp.org/+7201/1 2016-10-21T19:54:24Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:54:46Z phoe: When BEST is run with a TEST that is not a strict order, meaning that (FUNCALL TEST X X) may return T, then BEST may return any of the elements that are equivalent under the TEST. 2016-10-21T19:55:47Z jasom: note that you *can* leave off the #!/bin/sh and the readtable mangling if the file will contain only ASCII and the user is using a POSIX conformant shell (POSIX allows shells to not try to execute binary files) 2016-10-21T19:55:52Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:56:23Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:56:42Z jasom: but I find it better to not rely on it; fish, zsh and cshell variants have all not worked properly on such scripts in some cases. 2016-10-21T19:58:05Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2016-10-21T19:58:34Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2016-10-21T19:59:20Z Sigyn quit (Quit: Would it save you a lot of time if I just gave up and went mad now?) 2016-10-21T19:59:30Z jasom: oh, I just found a nitpick with my own script; I should probably not mangle the readtable until after requiring asdf; it ideally should be the last thing before the load. 2016-10-21T20:00:01Z Sigyn joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:01:04Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:06:24Z manualcrank quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-21T20:13:53Z pseud quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-21T20:15:44Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:16:01Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-21T20:17:35Z phoe: uh 2016-10-21T20:17:41Z phoe: beaky: (defun f (g) (g)) won't work 2016-10-21T20:17:56Z phoe: this ain't Scheme 2016-10-21T20:18:01Z beaky: oh right (funcall g) 2016-10-21T20:18:30Z phoe: that macro is broken, too 2016-10-21T20:18:39Z phoe: oh, wait wait 2016-10-21T20:18:47Z phoe: in the first case, you'll have the function chosen at runtime 2016-10-21T20:18:53Z phoe: and in second - at macroexpansion time 2016-10-21T20:18:57Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T20:18:58Z phoe: which is basically compile-time. 2016-10-21T20:19:00Z beaky: ah 2016-10-21T20:19:09Z phoe: basically. 2016-10-21T20:19:24Z phoe: there are differences, but these two are close enough to simplify like that for now. 2016-10-21T20:23:50Z phoe: jasom: rpg: isoraqathedh: White_Flame: dwc: fourier: 2016-10-21T20:23:51Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329184#1 2016-10-21T20:24:00Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T20:24:07Z fourier: phoe: good ) 2016-10-21T20:24:19Z tc2keats quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T20:24:33Z phoe: fourier: did I skip a paren? 2016-10-21T20:24:56Z White_Flame: phoe: the BEST lambda still needs a 0-argument form 2016-10-21T20:24:57Z phoe: oh, no, wait 2016-10-21T20:25:04Z phoe: correct 2016-10-21T20:25:08Z phoe: ... 2016-10-21T20:25:14Z phoe: what should it return, then? 2016-10-21T20:25:28Z White_Flame: nil? 2016-10-21T20:25:43Z phoe: what if NIL is one of the actual values? 2016-10-21T20:25:54Z White_Flame: (values nil nil) then :-P 2016-10-21T20:26:01Z phoe: they won't propagate over to REDUCE 2016-10-21T20:26:09Z phoe: multiple values don't save us here 2016-10-21T20:26:39Z phoe: shit! 2016-10-21T20:26:41Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:26:46Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-10-21T20:26:58Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:27:43Z White_Flame: I think that :initial-value would be used if the user cares 2016-10-21T20:27:59Z White_Flame: "If the subsequence is empty and an initial-value is given, then the initial-value is returned and function is not called." 2016-10-21T20:28:24Z phoe: White_Flame: yes, but the case (reduce (best #'<) ()) is defined by the standard. 2016-10-21T20:28:30Z phoe: and BEST breaks it. 2016-10-21T20:28:32Z White_Flame: right 2016-10-21T20:29:06Z White_Flame: FIND just returns NIL if no object is found, which conflicts anyway in the case that NIL is matched 2016-10-21T20:29:20Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T20:29:23Z White_Flame: so there's precedent for ambiguous NIL returns on 'no element" conditions 2016-10-21T20:30:30Z tc2keats joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:30:40Z phoe: it's not a precedent I want to duplicate 2016-10-21T20:30:45Z phoe: FIND is broken in this case 2016-10-21T20:33:18Z phoe: God damn #'REDUCE 2016-10-21T20:33:36Z phoe: it could at least return two values 2016-10-21T20:33:50Z phoe: with the second being T if the sequence is not empty and NIL if it is empty 2016-10-21T20:34:23Z phoe: somebody note this for the sake of HFR 2016-10-21T20:37:09Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:37:19Z phoe: White_Flame: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329184#2 2016-10-21T20:37:29Z phoe: I tried multiple values, they don't propagate. 2016-10-21T20:37:45Z phoe: The best/simplest I can do is return NIL and fix this in the HFR. 2016-10-21T20:37:53Z rpg: phoe: If you did this with a loop instead of doing that LAMBDA thing, I think you'd be ok. 2016-10-21T20:38:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:39:00Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:39:13Z phoe: rpg: this is a sample implementation. :P 2016-10-21T20:39:25Z phoe: but then we couldn't use REDUCE. 2016-10-21T20:39:29Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T20:39:52Z rpg: phoe: maybe REDUCE is the wrong hammer 2016-10-21T20:40:00Z phoe: rpg: nobody prevents one from using BEST inside LOOP 2016-10-21T20:40:08Z phoe: and achieve the thing they want 2016-10-21T20:41:35Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:41:47Z phoe: (loop initially (if (null list) (return (values nil nil))) with x = (car list) for y in (cdr list) do (setf x (best x y)) finally (return (values x t))) 2016-10-21T20:42:28Z rpg: phoe: I thought you were complaining about not getting multiple-values, because you were committed to REDUCE 2016-10-21T20:42:34Z phoe: uh 2016-10-21T20:42:40Z phoe: I broke best there 2016-10-21T20:42:46Z phoe: rpg: I am 2016-10-21T20:42:59Z phoe: but one can use BEST for creating the comparator function 2016-10-21T20:43:03Z phoe: that is then usable in a LOOP 2016-10-21T20:43:13Z phoe: BEST is usable inside REDUCE but also outside it 2016-10-21T20:43:16Z phoe: lemme whack up an example 2016-10-21T20:44:16Z rpg: so your BEST is really BETTER 2016-10-21T20:44:24Z rpg: BETTER-P 2016-10-21T20:45:03Z phoe: :< 2016-10-21T20:45:13Z phoe: no! 2016-10-21T20:45:15Z phoe: not BETTER_P 2016-10-21T20:45:16Z phoe: -P 2016-10-21T20:45:20Z phoe: it's not a predicate 2016-10-21T20:45:27Z phoe: it returns a function, not a boolean. 2016-10-21T20:45:33Z rpg: oh, yeah BETTER 2016-10-21T20:46:27Z prxq: phoe: so it's better-f? 2016-10-21T20:47:01Z phoe: prxq: there's no -f nomenclature in CL :P 2016-10-21T20:47:01Z rpg: MORE-FUN 2016-10-21T20:47:10Z phoe: rpg: actually, BETTER is more like it 2016-10-21T20:47:55Z phoe: #'MORE 2016-10-21T20:48:00Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:48:52Z phoe: rpg: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329184#3 2016-10-21T20:49:17Z White_Flame steps away 2016-10-21T20:49:46Z phoe: White_Flame: uh? 2016-10-21T20:50:16Z phoe: oh, wait 2016-10-21T20:50:18Z phoe: #'CHOOSE 2016-10-21T20:50:20Z phoe: because why not 2016-10-21T20:50:31Z White_Flame: afk 2016-10-21T20:50:45Z phoe: oh, wait, I can see why not. 2016-10-21T20:50:46Z rpg: choose is good 2016-10-21T20:50:55Z phoe: God damn, this is actually a complex thing to convey 2016-10-21T20:51:27Z phoe: rpg: it's harder than that. 2016-10-21T20:51:31Z phoe: CHOOSE what from where? 2016-10-21T20:51:49Z rpg: OK, I'm back to BETTER 2016-10-21T20:52:15Z phoe: God damn it 2016-10-21T20:52:19Z phoe: this idea is actually complex 2016-10-21T20:52:27Z phoe: too complex to convey it well with one word 2016-10-21T20:52:29Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-21T20:53:01Z phoe: first we apply KEY to arguments, then call TEST on the resulting values, and return one or the other argument based on whether the test passed, and then we keep on reducing 2016-10-21T20:53:53Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T20:54:06Z phoe: I think that BETTER is good as in (better #'<) 2016-10-21T20:54:22Z phoe: but (reduce (better #'<) ...) becomes somewhat unreadable then 2016-10-21T20:54:52Z phoe: so I'd need to rewrite/wrap the whole God damn REDUCE and create an actual BEST function 2016-10-21T20:55:12Z phoe: that functions just like REDUCE but uses (better #'<) instead of #'< as its function 2016-10-21T20:55:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T20:55:29Z phoe: and accounts for the 0-element case so BETTER does not have to. 2016-10-21T20:55:40Z phoe: woo, I think I got it! 2016-10-21T20:56:00Z jasom: phoe: was afk; I'm fine with no zero-arg version; use :initial-value if you care, and no zero-arg means it will error in the empty list so people don't silently get a non-sensical value 2016-10-21T20:56:40Z phoe: jasom: the standard defines that my function MUST NOT error on an empty list. 2016-10-21T20:56:41Z phoe: clhs reduce 2016-10-21T20:56:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm 2016-10-21T20:56:49Z jasom: BOO 2016-10-21T20:57:10Z phoe: so 2016-10-21T20:57:14Z phoe: REDUCE wants to screw us 2016-10-21T20:57:17Z phoe: let's screw REDUCE 2016-10-21T20:57:36Z phoe afk, http://paste.lisp.org/display/329184#4 2016-10-21T20:57:45Z jasom: phoe: I don't see that; it must be able to accept no arguments, but could raise an error in that case. 2016-10-21T20:58:10Z jasom: so (lambda (&rest r) (when (null r) (error ...)) ... is fine 2016-10-21T20:58:26Z jasom: but you are right that (lambda (a b) ... ) is not fine 2016-10-21T21:04:16Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-21T21:04:27Z pseudonymous joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:08:55Z razzy89 quit (Quit: razzy89) 2016-10-21T21:10:03Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:10:33Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T21:10:39Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:10:40Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T21:10:42Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:11:08Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T21:11:17Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:11:44Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T21:11:59Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:12:29Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T21:12:37Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:13:08Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T21:13:12Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T21:13:31Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-21T21:13:36Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T21:13:37Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-21T21:16:19Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:16:22Z dyelar quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-21T21:19:50Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:20:12Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:20:31Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-21T21:22:01Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:24:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:24:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-21T21:24:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:25:47Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T21:26:08Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:29:51Z anunnaki is now known as vertigo 2016-10-21T21:30:56Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-21T21:35:09Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-21T21:43:18Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-21T21:44:50Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T21:45:49Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T21:48:54Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-21T21:52:00Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T21:54:06Z jerme quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-10-21T21:59:30Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T22:01:10Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-21T22:02:15Z tristero quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-21T22:02:18Z phoe: jasom: well 2016-10-21T22:02:19Z phoe: okay 2016-10-21T22:02:23Z phoe: it can raise an error. 2016-10-21T22:02:35Z phoe: it can accept zero args and raise an error. 2016-10-21T22:03:03Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T22:03:19Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-21T22:03:38Z adolf_st_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T22:03:58Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-21T22:04:32Z heurist`_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T22:05:12Z BusFactor1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-21T22:05:28Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T22:10:53Z phoe: I'll work on it more tomorrow. 2016-10-21T22:10:55Z phoe: Today is night time. 2016-10-21T22:11:05Z phoe: Thanks for the brainstorm and see you! 2016-10-21T22:11:37Z phoe: Also, TIL raising an error when zero arguments are supplied != not accepting zero arguments. 2016-10-21T22:14:33Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-21T22:14:58Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-21T22:15:53Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T22:20:03Z safe joined #lisp 2016-10-21T22:20:24Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T22:21:18Z switchy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T22:21:51Z shrdlu68: Array B is displaced to arrat A. What would happen to array B if array A went out of scope? 2016-10-21T22:22:11Z shrdlu68: Can array A even go out of scope in such a case? 2016-10-21T22:22:38Z switchy joined #lisp 2016-10-21T22:22:40Z shrdlu68: I mean would it be garbage collected? 2016-10-21T22:22:52Z _death: flip214, loke: I pushed some big changes to dbus, incl. a way to publish objects.. feedback is welcome ;) 2016-10-21T22:26:18Z nirved joined #lisp 2016-10-21T22:33:23Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T22:35:16Z phoe: shrdlu68: no 2016-10-21T22:35:22Z phoe: displaced arrays hold references to their targets 2016-10-21T22:35:41Z phoe: so as long as array B is in scope, array A is in scope 2016-10-21T22:40:13Z markmarkmark joined #lisp 2016-10-21T22:40:47Z phoe: night! 2016-10-21T22:49:51Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-21T22:50:56Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-21T22:54:58Z phoe: actually 2016-10-21T22:55:15Z phoe: I'll define the function #'BETTER that's invoked like (better #'<) 2016-10-21T22:55:31Z phoe: that behaves exactly like the predicate except instead of T/NIL it returns first/second argument 2016-10-21T22:55:48Z phoe: and I'll define the function #'BEST = (reduce #'better ...) 2016-10-21T22:56:54Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-21T22:58:43Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:00:03Z phoe: uh 2016-10-21T23:00:04Z phoe: I mean 2016-10-21T23:00:17Z phoe: (best fn ...) = (reduce (better fn) ...) 2016-10-21T23:00:42Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:01:05Z nzambe quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-21T23:01:05Z BlueRavenGT quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-21T23:01:05Z vert2 quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-21T23:01:06Z yrk quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-21T23:01:06Z dwrngr quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-21T23:01:06Z JuanDaugherty quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-21T23:01:06Z Colleen quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-21T23:01:06Z myrkraverk quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-21T23:01:06Z Khisanth quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-21T23:01:06Z wooden_ quit (*.net *.split) 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ways to generate different languages with same code 2016-10-21T23:13:36Z akkad quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-21T23:13:40Z krwq: phoe: i'm fairly new to cl 2016-10-21T23:13:43Z forgot is now known as Guest47904 2016-10-21T23:13:43Z Khisanth is now known as Guest93869 2016-10-21T23:13:45Z aeth is now known as Guest41419 2016-10-21T23:13:45Z cantstanya is now known as Guest85247 2016-10-21T23:13:59Z wildlander quit (Changing host) 2016-10-21T23:13:59Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:14:05Z 7F1AAFJNP is now known as thomas 2016-10-21T23:14:09Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:14:10Z Nikotiin1 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:14:15Z Guest41419 quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2016-10-21T23:14:31Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:15:05Z akkad joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:15:26Z vert2 quit (Changing host) 2016-10-21T23:15:26Z vert2 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:15:41Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2016-10-21T23:15:46Z krwq: what's going on with those people leaving and joing - hundreds of them on all channels lol 2016-10-21T23:16:52Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-10-21T23:17:09Z _death: it's called a netsplit 2016-10-21T23:17:17Z krwq: what's that? 2016-10-21T23:17:19Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:17:52Z _death: you can google it.. 2016-10-21T23:18:31Z phoe: krwq: it's called compiling 2016-10-21T23:18:38Z phoe: one language to another language 2016-10-21T23:20:22Z krwq: phoe: what are the easiest libs for transcompilation? 2016-10-21T23:21:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T23:21:58Z krwq: i'd like to have one code in lisp and just generate implementation for windows BATCH and shell script 2016-10-21T23:22:49Z krwq: any sample code will do, i just don't want to reinvent the wheel 2016-10-21T23:24:39Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:25:15Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:25:27Z Merv joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:25:48Z krwq: ok, let's say I have a program in a form of (progn (fun1 ... (fun3 ...)) (fun2 ...)) - is there an easy way to create a map of fun1 -> afun1, ... funn -> afunn and replace recursively all the functions with something else? 2016-10-21T23:26:48Z banjiewen joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:28:04Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:28:17Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:29:04Z bluezone: https://goo.gl/mA5jh6 it's telling me not enough elements given to 'ELT' which is the second parameter to my function 2016-10-21T23:29:10Z bluezone: anyone see what I'm doing wrong? 2016-10-21T23:30:37Z rvirding joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:30:38Z drmeister joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:30:47Z _death: krwq: your question suggests SUBLIS, although you likely want to read about data-driven programming 2016-10-21T23:31:21Z l1x joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:31:47Z krwq: _death: quick peek at that for cl and it looks like something i'm looking for - thanks! 2016-10-21T23:31:49Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-21T23:32:22Z _death: bluezone: yes.. (elt) means to call a function named elt 2016-10-21T23:32:23Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:32:29Z asedeno joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:32:37Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:32:42Z bluezone: _death: yeah i just saw it :( having other similar issues now though 2016-10-21T23:33:10Z mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:33:48Z unrahul joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:33:56Z tobel joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:33:56Z NhanH joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:34:18Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:35:11Z bluezone: https://goo.gl/jB9Dj9 _death now it says I'm only passing 1 argment to the function 2016-10-21T23:35:43Z bluezone: and if I add another argument it says I am passing too many :O 2016-10-21T23:36:11Z MorTal1ty joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:36:13Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:36:14Z danlentz joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:36:33Z mbrock joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:36:36Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-21T23:36:51Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:37:07Z bluezone: OH 2016-10-21T23:37:13Z Guest85247 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-21T23:37:27Z rann joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:37:32Z bluezone: nevermind i forgot to add elt to the recursive call 2016-10-21T23:37:34Z _death: bluezone: you need to stop tweaking code and start trying to understand lisp syntax 2016-10-21T23:37:59Z bluezone: I understand it but it's the first program I write. It's normal to make stupid mistakes :P 2016-10-21T23:38:14Z _death: bluezone: when something goes wrong, try to understand the error before tweaking something 2016-10-21T23:38:56Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:39:22Z krwq: bluezone: I prefer approach: make it work, then check what did you do wrong, then improve 2016-10-21T23:40:26Z angular_mike_ joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:40:46Z aaronjensen joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:40:50Z lancetw joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:41:20Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-21T23:43:32Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T23:44:14Z bluezone: Is there a better compiler I can use? What do you guys use? 2016-10-21T23:44:19Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:44:52Z setheus joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:46:09Z krwq: compiler is not gonna be limiting for a while for you i guess, use any 2016-10-21T23:46:31Z bluezone: do any of them print line numbers for syntax erros? 2016-10-21T23:46:34Z bluezone: errors 2016-10-21T23:48:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-21T23:55:53Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-21T23:56:01Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:56:30Z NitroWheels quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-21T23:56:57Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-21T23:59:44Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-22T00:02:16Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T00:02:36Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T00:09:20Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-22T00:20:50Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T00:21:05Z krwq: bluezone: you usually don't operate on lines in lisp, it's probably better to think of your code as bunch of sexps 2016-10-22T00:21:29Z krwq: sublis is awesome, is there something which would do more advanced replacements? i.e. (test a b ...) -> (foo c ...)? 2016-10-22T00:22:25Z shrdlu68: Is the position in a bytespec zero-indexed? 2016-10-22T00:22:40Z Bike: yes. 2016-10-22T00:23:45Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-22T00:25:32Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-10-22T00:27:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: bluezone: sbcl does 2016-10-22T00:28:11Z bluezone: cool 2016-10-22T00:31:20Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-10-22T00:31:39Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-22T00:32:04Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-22T00:39:52Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-22T00:47:28Z QwertyDragon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T00:49:06Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-22T00:53:16Z NitroWheels quit (Quit: Quitting: 6502 is calling me) 2016-10-22T01:04:33Z nirved quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T01:07:19Z bluezone: lmao my program is so bad now it just crashes sbcl 2016-10-22T01:07:22Z bluezone giggles 2016-10-22T01:08:54Z bluezone: it's a poor windows port that I am using hehe, i think it just crashes in infinite recursion 2016-10-22T01:15:53Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-22T01:23:54Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-22T01:27:06Z krwq: bluezone: are you sure it didn't enter debug mode? 2016-10-22T01:27:46Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-22T01:27:48Z cromachina: sbcl doesn't guarantee tail call optimizations if that is what you are relying on to happen 2016-10-22T01:28:02Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T01:28:03Z cromachina: certain optimization settings can make it happen though 2016-10-22T01:28:17Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-22T01:30:20Z bluezone: krwq: naw it just completely crashed ("program sbcl has stopped working") 2016-10-22T01:30:42Z bluezone: This was my code https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/OOA3p1r5/This 2016-10-22T01:30:44Z krwq: bluezone: how are you running? 2016-10-22T01:31:07Z bluezone: in the command prompt: sbcl --script xyz.lisp 2016-10-22T01:31:15Z bluezone: it was working earlier 2016-10-22T01:32:15Z krwq: bluezone: i would check for nil with r 2016-10-22T01:32:57Z bluezone: right... I don't really have a basecase haha 2016-10-22T01:33:55Z krwq: bluezone: although (member nil nil) -> nil so i guess that's not the issue 2016-10-22T01:34:15Z bluezone: naw I changed it doesnt seem like this issue 2016-10-22T01:34:33Z bluezone: probably some bracket nonsense :( 2016-10-22T01:34:35Z krwq: bluezone: actually it is, i didn't notice you put recursion to ELSE. you're probably just getting stack overflow 2016-10-22T01:35:57Z bluezone: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/y0NK3hOG/ 2016-10-22T01:36:03Z bluezone: like that kind of nil check? 2016-10-22T01:36:07Z Orion3k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-22T01:36:37Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-22T01:36:44Z krwq: bluezone: i think if you wrap the whole thing with (when lst ...) it should be fine 2016-10-22T01:37:08Z bluezone: when? :O didn't even know about this 2016-10-22T01:38:28Z cromachina: here is a more intuitive version of your function bluezone http://paste.lisp.org/display/329196 2016-10-22T01:38:50Z krwq: bluezone: btw: you can use ideone.com and compile on the website 2016-10-22T01:39:02Z Bike: or remove-duplicates. 2016-10-22T01:39:10Z cromachina: or that 2016-10-22T01:39:42Z bluezone: it's mostly an exercise to learn for school 2016-10-22T01:39:55Z krwq: bluezone: there is an infinite number of ways you can solve it, do it your way learn, ask how to do it better, next time write it better 2016-10-22T01:40:12Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T01:40:30Z bluezone: oh wow, nice. loops can prove useful 2016-10-22T01:40:35Z cromachina: it wouldnt hurt to make some helper functions to make it less messy 2016-10-22T01:40:49Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-22T01:41:15Z krwq: bluezone: http://ideone.com/QbqQ1L , just press fork and then keep on editing and running 2016-10-22T01:41:23Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-22T01:42:29Z tmtwd quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T01:43:09Z bluezone: your code won't compile D: haha 2016-10-22T01:43:14Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-10-22T01:43:51Z krwq: bluezone: it's compiled and run on the website and the status is Success and output is correct 2016-10-22T01:44:21Z bluezone: krwq: on ideaone? 2016-10-22T01:44:31Z krwq: bluezone: yes 2016-10-22T01:45:11Z bluezone: krwq: reopened it and it's okay now 2016-10-22T01:45:21Z bluezone: krwq: you're allowed to use list as a parameter name? 2016-10-22T01:45:33Z bluezone: it's a built-in function 2016-10-22T01:45:51Z Bike: functions and variables can share names like that, yeah. 2016-10-22T01:46:58Z bluezone: and let(new) is short for let(new nil) ? 2016-10-22T01:47:31Z Bike: yes. 2016-10-22T01:47:38Z cromachina: (let (new)) => (let ((new nil)) 2016-10-22T01:47:45Z cromachina: dont forget the extra parens there 2016-10-22T01:47:54Z bluezone: i see 2016-10-22T01:50:29Z yaewa joined #lisp 2016-10-22T01:51:43Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-22T01:51:46Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2016-10-22T01:52:38Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T01:52:56Z yaewa quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T01:55:07Z pikaroo joined #lisp 2016-10-22T01:55:12Z pikaroo: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-10-22T01:55:53Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T01:56:17Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-22T02:03:39Z bluezone: trying to track down the error http://ideone.com/aHDKom 2016-10-22T02:06:09Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T02:07:12Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T02:07:27Z Bike: clhs loop 2016-10-22T02:07:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 2016-10-22T02:07:45Z Bike: or, if you don't want to read the manual, (loop for x in lst2 do whatever) 2016-10-22T02:08:22Z bluezone: ah i see 2016-10-22T02:08:38Z bluezone: yeah I tried reading some of those 2016-10-22T02:08:52Z bluezone: sometimes they are hard to understand 2016-10-22T02:15:55Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-22T02:16:46Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-22T02:19:18Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-22T02:26:06Z paroneayea joined #lisp 2016-10-22T02:28:14Z neuri8 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-22T02:32:38Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T02:35:28Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-22T02:35:28Z loke`` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-22T02:35:28Z john-mcaleely quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-22T02:36:32Z loke`` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T02:36:42Z neuri8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T02:37:06Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-22T02:38:42Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-22T02:38:46Z john-mcaleely joined #lisp 2016-10-22T02:39:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-22T02:47:10Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-22T02:49:58Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T02:52:17Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T02:57:39Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T03:01:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-22T03:08:32Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-22T03:09:35Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-22T03:15:25Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T03:15:58Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T03:16:33Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T03:16:59Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-22T03:17:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-22T03:20:03Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-22T03:20:19Z srcerer joined #lisp 2016-10-22T03:20:56Z bitch is now known as ________________ 2016-10-22T03:20:57Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-22T03:25:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T03:26:01Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-22T03:29:59Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T03:33:04Z ________________ is now known as bitch 2016-10-22T03:33:09Z quasisane quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-22T03:33:35Z quasisane joined #lisp 2016-10-22T03:37:26Z neuri8 quit (Quit: L) 2016-10-22T03:41:49Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T03:42:27Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T03:47:32Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-22T03:50:43Z pikaroo quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-22T03:52:00Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-22T03:52:46Z Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 2016-10-22T03:53:11Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2016-10-22T03:55:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T03:57:30Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-22T03:58:12Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T03:59:27Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-22T04:01:49Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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seconds) 2016-10-22T11:01:40Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-10-22T11:02:51Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-22T11:08:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T11:10:43Z isoraqathedh: SBCL seems to have a special pathname syntax for its source files. 2016-10-22T11:10:55Z isoraqathedh: Something like #P"SYS:CONTRIB;ASDF;UIOP.LISP.NEWEST". 2016-10-22T11:14:52Z jackdaniel: isoraqathedh: it's called logical-pathnames 2016-10-22T11:15:00Z jackdaniel: (part of the specification) 2016-10-22T11:15:12Z jackdaniel: spec logical-pathname 2016-10-22T11:15:15Z jackdaniel: clhs logical-pathname 2016-10-22T11:15:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_logica.htm 2016-10-22T11:18:52Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T11:18:59Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T11:20:05Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-22T11:20:17Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-22T11:21:38Z ak5 joined #lisp 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Is there an idiomatic way to do something similar without using objects? 2016-10-22T14:04:13Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:05:11Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:05:38Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:06:25Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:06:46Z jealousmonk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T14:06:54Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T14:07:21Z klltkr: What would be wrong with using objects in that instance? 2016-10-22T14:08:01Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:08:55Z Glitchy: klltkr: Trying to separate data and operations 2016-10-22T14:09:15Z Glitchy: Nothing wrong with it per se, I'm just trying to understand how this would be done in a more functional paradigm 2016-10-22T14:09:37Z Glitchy: Maybe I should be asking in #haskell but I don't really understand the language so any examples people give me would probably go over my head 2016-10-22T14:12:38Z klltkr: I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do...but you pass in a set of lambdas that implement the functionality 2016-10-22T14:14:08Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-22T14:14:12Z Glitchy: klltkr: Mostly I want to be able to test using simple alist but in production I want to use a persistent datastore 2016-10-22T14:14:21Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:15:05Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T14:15:06Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:15:20Z jackdaniel: Glitchy: for serialization cl-store seems a good choice 2016-10-22T14:15:53Z jackdaniel: but if you want database, postmodern is a way to go imho 2016-10-22T14:16:41Z phoe: Glitchy: uh, sure thing 2016-10-22T14:17:12Z phoe: (defclass datastore () ()) 2016-10-22T14:17:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:17:24Z phoe: (defclass alist-datastore (datastore) (alist)) 2016-10-22T14:17:39Z phoe: (defclass persistent-datastore (datastore) (some-sorta-database-object)) 2016-10-22T14:18:00Z SAL9000: (defgeneric create-user (datastore username password...)) 2016-10-22T14:18:16Z phoe: (defmethod create-user ((datastore alist-datastore) username password) ...) 2016-10-22T14:18:25Z phoe: (defmethod create-user ((datastore persistent-datastore) username password) ...) 2016-10-22T14:18:32Z phoe: there you go 2016-10-22T14:18:44Z phoe highfives SAL9000 2016-10-22T14:18:47Z klltkr: :) 2016-10-22T14:18:50Z SAL9000: \o 2016-10-22T14:18:52Z phoe: klltkr: :3 2016-10-22T14:19:14Z SAL9000: tbh, I think a better answer to this specific problem would be to use a generic database interface & sqlite for testing 2016-10-22T14:19:27Z klltkr: I sense Twitch programs Common Lisp 2016-10-22T14:19:28Z SAL9000: so you don't end up reimplementing bits of create-user et. al. that you don't have to 2016-10-22T14:19:33Z phoe: klltkr: xD 2016-10-22T14:19:44Z phoe: hey 2016-10-22T14:19:46Z phoe: we should do this 2016-10-22T14:19:55Z SAL9000: here there be dragons 2016-10-22T14:20:08Z SAL9000: *points to Twitch Installs Gentoo* 2016-10-22T14:21:24Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:21:28Z Glitchy: phoe: Thanks, that works if I want to use classes (that's similar to what I'd do now in Java), but what if I dont? 2016-10-22T14:21:49Z test1600 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T14:22:01Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T14:22:08Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-22T14:22:15Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:22:25Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-22T14:22:36Z klltkr: Glitchy: there's nothing wrong with this in Common Lisp 2016-10-22T14:22:49Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:23:08Z klltkr: It's okay to use OO in Common Lisp 2016-10-22T14:23:12Z Glitchy: klltkr: I know, I'm just trying to understand the 'pure functional' way to do it. :D 2016-10-22T14:23:12Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:23:20Z Glitchy: It's a pursuit of knowledge thing 2016-10-22T14:23:47Z klltkr mumbles something about Common Lisp doing OO better than "OO" languages 2016-10-22T14:24:14Z klltkr: Glitchy: use a closure in place of the object 2016-10-22T14:24:49Z phoe: Glitchy: oh, if you don't want to use classes? 2016-10-22T14:24:57Z raydeejay: most "OO languages" get it wrong in the first place :) 2016-10-22T14:25:03Z Glitchy: phoe: Yes 2016-10-22T14:26:29Z phoe: what klltkr said 2016-10-22T14:27:40Z dwc: maybe there needs to be a #functional-cl channel :/ 2016-10-22T14:27:46Z phoe: dwc: no, why? 2016-10-22T14:27:50Z binghe joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:29:29Z dwc: because wanting to know how to do things in a functional style without OO is valid 2016-10-22T14:30:37Z phoe: dwc: #lisp is fine for that methinks 2016-10-22T14:30:42Z phoe: but basically 2016-10-22T14:31:10Z younder: well I lurk on haskell too. They are far more functional 2016-10-22T14:31:25Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:31:30Z phoe: (let ((datastore ...)) (list (lambda (key) (get-key key datastore)) (lambda (key new-value) (set-key key new-value datastore)))) 2016-10-22T14:31:34Z Glitchy: younder: I ask in Haskell but I dont necessarily understand the replies I get :( I need to learn it 2016-10-22T14:31:34Z phoe: stuff like that 2016-10-22T14:31:39Z phoe: you create a new closure 2016-10-22T14:31:43Z phoe: and return a pair of functions 2016-10-22T14:31:55Z phoe: that can do anything 2016-10-22T14:32:01Z phoe: they can destructively modify datastore 2016-10-22T14:32:15Z phoe: or they can return a new datastore 2016-10-22T14:32:21Z Glitchy: phoe: That makes a lot of sense 2016-10-22T14:32:22Z phoe: without modifying the previous one. 2016-10-22T14:32:30Z younder: In CL there is a heavy price for functinal programming style a lot of consing. You need lazy evaluation. 2016-10-22T14:32:42Z phoe: younder: there's lazy evaluation in CL. :P 2016-10-22T14:32:46Z phoe: bbl - RL is calling. 2016-10-22T14:32:58Z phoe: Glitchy: gimme ~30 minutes or ask someone else for a simple immutable datastore implementation using an alist. 2016-10-22T14:32:59Z younder: There ARE libraries that do this, but they have never been popular. 2016-10-22T14:32:59Z dwc: Glitchy: ask in #ocaml instead of #haskell and you might understand the answers ;-) 2016-10-22T14:33:01Z phoe: or mutable with hashtable. 2016-10-22T14:33:04Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T14:33:09Z phoe: younder: xD 2016-10-22T14:33:13Z phoe: Lisp has never been popular either 2016-10-22T14:33:22Z Glitchy: phoe: I think I'll be able to figure it out from this, actually. Thanks. 2016-10-22T14:33:31Z Glitchy: Returning a closure with functions makes a lot of sense 2016-10-22T14:33:53Z Glitchy: That way I dont have to pass in 4-5 parameters of related functions 2016-10-22T14:34:06Z phoe: Glitchy: welcome to functional programming 2016-10-22T14:34:23Z phoe: and Lisp allows you to be as functional as you want to. 2016-10-22T14:36:56Z younder: Anyhow CLOS and it's avanced OO features are one of the strong point's In my opinion. 2016-10-22T14:38:35Z Glitchy: I like CLOS, I'm just trying to understand functional programming. :) 2016-10-22T14:40:32Z younder: Glitchy, Well have you lookced at ACL2? http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/moore/acl2/ 2016-10-22T14:40:52Z phoe: well, Glitchy, basically 2016-10-22T14:41:08Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:41:14Z phoe: let our datastore be an immutable alist. 2016-10-22T14:41:33Z phoe: actually, no, wait 2016-10-22T14:41:37Z phoe: our closure is broken 2016-10-22T14:42:06Z phoe: if we want it the immutable way, we need to create a new getter each time. 2016-10-22T14:42:21Z phoe: and a new setter each time, too. 2016-10-22T14:43:03Z younder: Glitchy, Purely functional data structures https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/theses/okasaki.pdf is a interesting if somewhat dry book. The examplesare written in ML but the ideas can be used in Lisp too. 2016-10-22T14:44:18Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:45:37Z Tristam quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-22T14:45:43Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-22T14:47:59Z phoe: so, basically. 2016-10-22T14:48:55Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-22T14:49:56Z phoe: we cannot use the old getter and setter all the time 2016-10-22T14:50:27Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-22T14:50:31Z phoe: because they're immutable, so they'll refer to "old" versions of the database. 2016-10-22T14:51:00Z phoe: so while the getter may return the value we seek, the setter has to return a new closure containing new getter and setter for the modified datastore. 2016-10-22T14:51:10Z phoe: Glitchy: got it so far? 2016-10-22T14:51:19Z Glitchy: Yeah 2016-10-22T14:51:29Z ak5 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T14:51:30Z phoe: so the getter is fairly simple 2016-10-22T14:51:50Z phoe: (lambda (key) (cdr (assoc key alist))) 2016-10-22T14:52:03Z phoe: that's just an alist, so basic alist functionality works. 2016-10-22T14:52:08Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T14:52:20Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:52:51Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:53:53Z phoe: but we need to define a setter that will return a whole new closure with two functions, getter and setter. 2016-10-22T14:54:26Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:54:47Z raydeejay: ah, the joys of circumventing mutable state by means of not having mutable state \o/ 2016-10-22T14:54:54Z phoe: so what's the issue here? 2016-10-22T14:55:03Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:55:04Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:55:18Z phoe: we need to return a new closure from within a closure 2016-10-22T14:55:26Z phoe: (let (lambda (let (lambda ...)))) 2016-10-22T14:55:35Z phoe: but the newly returned closure must return another new closure 2016-10-22T14:55:43Z phoe: (let (lambda (let (lambda (let (lambda ...)))))) 2016-10-22T14:55:47Z phoe: a few more and we'll go into hyperspace 2016-10-22T14:56:04Z phoe: so it looks like we'll need a recursive function of sorts in order to deal with that. 2016-10-22T14:56:07Z raydeejay: you mean out-of-space 2016-10-22T14:56:26Z phoe: raydeejay: that too 2016-10-22T14:56:34Z phoe: but only after a while 2016-10-22T14:58:00Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:58:26Z younder: You need to stop recursion after a number of say n steps. This is the essence of my-recursion. 2016-10-22T14:59:17Z phoe: oh hell 2016-10-22T14:59:21Z phoe: that's an interesting exercise 2016-10-22T14:59:27Z phoe: gimme a moment, I need to bend my brain a bit 2016-10-22T14:59:34Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-22T14:59:42Z younder: You can make a function that caluculates Pi to n digits but n needs to be a finite number. You can never get the whole of Pi. 2016-10-22T15:00:44Z manualcrank quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-22T15:02:23Z younder: (because Pi is irrational and also trancendental so the number of digits never terminates or repeats and it would take an infinate number of digits to represent it) 2016-10-22T15:03:11Z daniel-s quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T15:03:19Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:04:33Z raydeejay: there was this guy that was crowfunding a computer to calculate Pi to the last digit 2016-10-22T15:04:44Z raydeejay: "it's a matter of hardware" 2016-10-22T15:05:05Z younder: Nop. It is a matter of computablittity :) 2016-10-22T15:05:33Z raydeejay: don't tell me 2016-10-22T15:05:35Z raydeejay: xD 2016-10-22T15:05:52Z younder: (or was it a metter of selling ;( ) 2016-10-22T15:06:38Z raydeejay: it felt like he really believed his assumption that "Pi must have a finite number of digits because." 2016-10-22T15:06:54Z phoe: Glitchy: I think I got it 2016-10-22T15:07:01Z raydeejay: the reason is the best part :) 2016-10-22T15:07:15Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329243 2016-10-22T15:07:38Z phoe: wait wait wait 2016-10-22T15:07:39Z phoe: uh 2016-10-22T15:07:41Z phoe: I broke it 2016-10-22T15:08:11Z younder: raydeejay, What is it? 2016-10-22T15:08:13Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329243#1 2016-10-22T15:08:15Z phoe: there 2016-10-22T15:08:28Z phoe: evaluating this will return two functions, one of which is a getter 2016-10-22T15:08:31Z raydeejay: younder: "Because." 2016-10-22T15:08:42Z phoe: so you (funcall getter 2) and get NIL because there's nothing there yet 2016-10-22T15:08:50Z phoe: and the other is a setter which returns a brand new pair of functions 2016-10-22T15:08:58Z phoe: so you (funcall setter 2 :two) 2016-10-22T15:09:15Z phoe: and then, with the new-getter, you (funcall new-getter 2) and get :TWO in return 2016-10-22T15:10:12Z phoe: I think it's as Schemelike as it can get :D 2016-10-22T15:10:32Z Glitchy: phoe: That looks much cleaner than I expected. :P 2016-10-22T15:10:37Z phoe: but actually 2016-10-22T15:10:43Z phoe: I wonder if it breaks 2016-10-22T15:10:50Z phoe: I need to test a bit more 2016-10-22T15:10:52Z phoe: brb 2016-10-22T15:10:57Z younder: raydeejay, Ok found it https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/2x1uq1/100k_supercomputer_dedicated_to_finding_the_end/ 2016-10-22T15:11:30Z raydeejay: yes! that one xD 2016-10-22T15:12:10Z phoe: Glitchy: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329243#2 2016-10-22T15:12:12Z phoe: it seems to work! 2016-10-22T15:12:46Z newcup quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T15:12:48Z younder: raydeejay, It is categorized under shittykickstarters :) 2016-10-22T15:13:20Z man213_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-22T15:13:46Z Glitchy: phoe: Thanks. This helps me with dependency injection a lot if I ever decide not to use CLOS for something. 2016-10-22T15:13:55Z younder: raydeejay, Well thans for that one, it made my day rotfl 2016-10-22T15:14:01Z raydeejay: :D 2016-10-22T15:15:27Z younder: raydeejay, well you can't count on the irrentionals can you ;) 2016-10-22T15:16:24Z phoe: Glitchy: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329243#2 2016-10-22T15:17:01Z phoe: that's how I used it. 2016-10-22T15:17:03Z phoe: that's from my REPL. 2016-10-22T15:18:26Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:21:30Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T15:21:42Z younder: For those interested http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9664.html 2016-10-22T15:22:19Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-22T15:22:30Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:23:12Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:23:36Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:25:05Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T15:26:25Z phoe: Glitchy: ping 2016-10-22T15:26:25Z flip214: _death: but your dbus server stuff is completely unrelated to my things? 2016-10-22T15:26:40Z flip214: I get lots of merge conflicts, does your branch replace mine completely? 2016-10-22T15:26:58Z flip214: (I'm okay with that, just want to know whether to even _try_ merging...) 2016-10-22T15:28:50Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:29:15Z Guest93869 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-22T15:29:46Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:31:47Z megalography joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:32:15Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:38:49Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:40:45Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:42:52Z Guest93869 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:45:30Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-22T15:48:17Z sharkteeth quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-22T15:51:18Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-22T15:54:35Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T15:58:22Z Fare: Remarkable how I keep finding bugs in ASDF. 2016-10-22T16:00:12Z heurist__ joined #lisp 2016-10-22T16:00:23Z pseudonymous quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T16:01:30Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-22T16:02:15Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-22T16:02:53Z heurist`_` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-22T16:03:07Z Cymew: Considering how complex ASDF is, that's hardly surprising, is it? 2016-10-22T16:04:10Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T16:04:45Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T16:08:16Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-22T16:10:14Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-22T16:10:42Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-22T16:10:46Z kamog joined #lisp 2016-10-22T16:11:48Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T16:13:09Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-22T16:14:37Z loke``: flip214: Isn't his server code just an older version of yours? 2016-10-22T16:21:59Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-22T16:35:13Z abbe: hi 2016-10-22T16:35:21Z phoe: hey abbe 2016-10-22T16:36:38Z abbe: is there a built-in common-lisp function, that can do something like: (lambda (ch) (let ((l (cons counter ch))) (incf counter) l)), basically trying to do something like counter++ ( of C language), instead of ++counter. 2016-10-22T16:37:02Z abbe: which is what incf does. 2016-10-22T16:39:41Z phoe: abbe: no 2016-10-22T16:39:47Z phoe: incf does preincrementation 2016-10-22T16:40:01Z phoe: and I doubt there's postincrementation in Lisp 2016-10-22T16:40:34Z abbe: Okay, or if not post-increment, then something like return value of first function, but eval complete block. 2016-10-22T16:40:40Z phoe: prog1 2016-10-22T16:40:50Z phoe: (prog1 2 3 4 5) ;=> 2 2016-10-22T16:40:51Z abbe: oh! 2016-10-22T16:41:02Z abbe: sigh! thanks! :) 2016-10-22T16:41:13Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-22T16:41:22Z phoe: abbe: no problem 2016-10-22T16:41:35Z phoe: also prog2. 2016-10-22T16:41:45Z phoe: which I've never used myself. 2016-10-22T16:42:27Z phoe: OSHIT 2016-10-22T16:42:29Z phoe: clhs prog2 2016-10-22T16:42:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm 2016-10-22T16:42:35Z phoe: the specification as an error there 2016-10-22T16:42:55Z phoe: "prog2 evaluates first-form, then second-form, and then forms, yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form." 2016-10-22T16:43:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-22T16:46:24Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-22T16:47:35Z bitch is now known as |||||||||||||||| 2016-10-22T16:47:43Z abbe: also, is there a better way to generate contiguous series of numbers than, (loop for i from a to b collect i) ? 2016-10-22T16:48:32Z rjid quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T16:50:23Z younder: well statically. You ARE generating them 2016-10-22T16:51:05Z younder: You cold use a read macro to generate them before compilation 2016-10-22T16:51:37Z abbe: okay 2016-10-22T16:51:38Z phoe: abbe: alexandria:iota 2016-10-22T16:51:41Z phoe: there's a function for that 2016-10-22T16:52:27Z abbe: thanks phoe, and younder 2016-10-22T16:52:42Z abbe: i'm already using alexandria, so i can use iota 2016-10-22T16:52:57Z phoe: or what younder said 2016-10-22T16:53:00Z phoe: you could #.(iota ...) 2016-10-22T16:53:09Z phoe: but then again 2016-10-22T16:53:18Z phoe: if you're mutating that list, you don't want that 2016-10-22T16:53:46Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-22T16:53:53Z abbe: yes, not mutating, just trying to build a lookup table, and this list of numbers will be used as index 2016-10-22T16:54:59Z younder: well then you have what you need 2016-10-22T16:56:20Z abbe: what does "#." do ? 2016-10-22T16:56:35Z younder: Thats the read macro bit 2016-10-22T16:56:43Z abbe: oh! 2016-10-22T16:57:10Z abbe: so by prefixing this, it will cause (iota ...) to be evaluated at read time ? 2016-10-22T16:57:16Z younder: It compiles the code before macro has a chance to see it. 2016-10-22T16:57:24Z phoe: abbe: list 2016-10-22T16:57:26Z abbe: okay 2016-10-22T16:57:27Z phoe: yes, exactly 2016-10-22T16:57:38Z phoe: '(1 2 3 #.(+ 2 2) 5 6) 2016-10-22T16:57:40Z phoe: abbe: eval that 2016-10-22T16:57:53Z abbe: yeah, i tried it 2016-10-22T16:57:58Z abbe: interesting 2016-10-22T16:58:04Z abbe: thank you 2016-10-22T16:58:14Z abbe: supercool things 2016-10-22T16:58:36Z younder: Read macroes are cool. And as far as I know unique to lisp. As are complere macros 2016-10-22T16:58:37Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-22T16:58:55Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:04:05Z raydeejay quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-22T17:04:32Z younder: For compiler macros you might wanna take a look at the cp-ppcre code. The interesting thing is that it evaluets the string if it is known at compile time and generaates codespesifically for THAT regexp. No interpreter :) 2016-10-22T17:04:57Z younder: also cool 2016-10-22T17:06:35Z younder: cl-ppcre 2016-10-22T17:06:47Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:08:10Z raydeejay joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:12:54Z newcup joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:19:15Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T17:25:19Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:25:47Z Fare: post-incf is not hard to write 2016-10-22T17:26:06Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:26:49Z Fare: abbe: I have an implementation of post-incf in fare-utils 2016-10-22T17:28:50Z phoe: yes, it's not. 2016-10-22T17:30:40Z phoe: (defmacro postincf (place &optional (delta 1)) (with-gensyms (temp) `(let ((temp ,place)) (incf ,place ,delta) temp))) 2016-10-22T17:30:44Z phoe: something like that more or less 2016-10-22T17:31:37Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:31:40Z Fare: phoe: somewhat more complex. You have to use get-setf-expansion 2016-10-22T17:31:55Z Fare: otherwise, you'll multiply side-effects 2016-10-22T17:32:13Z Fare: in the computation of the place. 2016-10-22T17:33:09Z prole: Hie, I have a noob question: I have installed with ql:quickload the inferior-shell package, but when I try to use my script (with #!/usr/bin/cl-launch -sp inferior-shell -E main), it shows an error saying inferior-shell missing... Is that because I didn't do the .asd file with the info in it? Thanks 2016-10-22T17:33:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:34:38Z Fare: maybe use option -Q of cl-launch to load quicklisp? 2016-10-22T17:35:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T17:35:47Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:36:53Z pjb: prole: more or less yes. You cannot use inferior-shell in the shebang line, because you need to load it with quicklisp (or asdf) first. I don't know if cl-launch can do that from the shebang line, but I would doubt it. 2016-10-22T17:37:42Z klltkr: Hello all 2016-10-22T17:38:01Z prole: i'll try it 2016-10-22T17:38:31Z Fare: pjb *can* do it from the shebang 2016-10-22T17:38:38Z pjb: prole: discard what I said, I largely subestimated the capabilities of cl-launch. 2016-10-22T17:38:45Z Fare: you might have to use option -X or something, though 2016-10-22T17:39:00Z tc2keats quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T17:39:04Z pjb: Indeed. Now perhaps the inferior-shell system doesn't define a inferior-shell package? 2016-10-22T17:39:10Z Fare: I vastly overengineered cl-launch 2016-10-22T17:39:19Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-22T17:40:16Z beaky: wow nice i didnt realize you can write shell scripts iwth common lisp 2016-10-22T17:40:19Z Fare: so it can probably do whatever you want 2016-10-22T17:40:37Z pjb: Is -Q the default? 2016-10-22T17:40:37Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:40:37Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:40:38Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:40:42Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:40:45Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:40:49Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:40:52Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:40:55Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:40:58Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:41:01Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:41:04Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:41:06Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:41:10Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:41:13Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:41:16Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:41:19Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:41:21Z Fare: beaky: I published an article/essay about it "ASDF3, or Why Lisp is now an acceptable scripting language" 2016-10-22T17:41:22Z pjb: 2016-10-22T17:41:22Z pjb quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2016-10-22T17:41:23Z pratch joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:41:42Z beaky: wow thanks 2016-10-22T17:41:48Z Fare: pjb: -Q is not the default default, but you can install cl-launch so that it is the default. 2016-10-22T17:42:09Z beaky: poor pjb :< victim of accidental paste i guess :D 2016-10-22T17:42:10Z cromachina: you can technically make a shell script with any language.. 2016-10-22T17:42:29Z prole: I'm just a noob, but cl-launch looks great 2016-10-22T17:43:01Z beaky: hehe i look forward to anything more acceptable than weird dsls like ansible 2016-10-22T17:43:45Z Fare: prole: that's a nice compliment; the best compliment would be to use it. 2016-10-22T17:43:55Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:44:02Z Fare hears "ansible" and barfs 2016-10-22T17:44:26Z prole: :) 2016-10-22T17:45:01Z Fare: cromachina, but in my ELS 2014 presentation I explain the three things you need to add to your language so you can use it for scripting. 2016-10-22T17:45:07Z Fare: maybe four. 2016-10-22T17:45:18Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-22T17:45:24Z Fare: 1- the ability to be called from the command-line (which cl-launch provides) 2016-10-22T17:45:57Z Fare: 2- the ability to call other programs via the command-line (which uiop/run-program and inferior-shell provide) 2016-10-22T17:46:47Z Fare: 3- the ability to run code without configuration by user or system administrator (which asdf's source-registry and output-translations enables) 2016-10-22T17:48:09Z cromachina: and 4? 2016-10-22T17:48:12Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:48:21Z Fare: 4- acceptable startup time (which is not great in CL, but can be optimized using cl-launch, uiop:dump-image and cl-launch/dispatch) 2016-10-22T17:49:01Z rjid: Hi 2016-10-22T17:49:48Z Fare: http://fare.livejournal.com/184127.html 2016-10-22T17:51:12Z rjid: Fare, Are you always coding in CL? 2016-10-22T17:51:14Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:51:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:54:11Z paroneayea quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-22T17:54:21Z paroneayea joined #lisp 2016-10-22T17:56:28Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-22T17:56:32Z Fare: rjid, officially, no 2016-10-22T17:57:17Z rjid: I hope you always love this language 2016-10-22T17:57:33Z younder: There are so many great languages. I prefer to hetrogenic in my approach to languages 2016-10-22T17:57:34Z Fare: but I'm still (1) scripting, and (2) developing UIOP and ASDF 2016-10-22T17:58:06Z Fare: rjid, I have a love/hate relationship with CL 2016-10-22T17:58:15Z younder: Under Linux you don't really have a chice anyhow 2016-10-22T17:58:49Z rjid: great,so it is a strong relationship 2016-10-22T17:58:57Z Fare: :-/ 2016-10-22T17:59:18Z Fare: younder, you can everything in CL on Linux 2016-10-22T17:59:26Z Fare: (after bootstrapping it) 2016-10-22T17:59:49Z rjid: Everything and nothing 2016-10-22T18:00:04Z Fare: CL sure beats zsh, bash, python, perl, php, ruby, js, etc. for scripting. 2016-10-22T18:00:23Z Fare: that's a low bar, of course 2016-10-22T18:00:31Z younder: yes. well I don't strive for perfection. I use Perl, PHP, C++, Haslkell, CL and more 2016-10-22T18:00:36Z prole: fare: what do you think of guile? 2016-10-22T18:00:45Z Fare: I like Andy Wingo a lot. 2016-10-22T18:00:59Z Fare: He took guile from a very bad state to a much better one. 2016-10-22T18:01:03Z younder: prole, I think it sucks. I'd rater script in Python 2016-10-22T18:01:19Z prole: haha ok 2016-10-22T18:01:29Z Fare: I haven't followed the latest developments, though, and backward compatibility sucks. 2016-10-22T18:01:46Z paroneayea quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-22T18:01:52Z Fare: Also, I find Scheme's monomorphism tedious. 2016-10-22T18:01:57Z paroneayea joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:02:07Z Fare: Give me ad hoc polymorphism in a functional setting, please! 2016-10-22T18:02:24Z younder: Neither have I. So my last experience was about 8 years ago. It may have evolved since then 2016-10-22T18:02:37Z Fare: younder, have you tried scripting in CL? I find it liberating. 2016-10-22T18:03:09Z younder: Faire: yes and I still use ti 2016-10-22T18:03:14Z Fare: ti? 2016-10-22T18:03:17Z younder: it 2016-10-22T18:04:19Z younder: I prototyped a full functinal library in CL 2016-10-22T18:04:51Z paroneayea quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-22T18:05:01Z paroneayea joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:05:02Z Fare: "full functional" ? 2016-10-22T18:05:14Z Fare: something like fsets or lisp-interface-library ? 2016-10-22T18:05:19Z younder: As in pure funstional 2016-10-22T18:05:26Z klltkr: You never go full functional 2016-10-22T18:05:41Z Fare: BTW, lisp-interface-library accepts patches and/or maintainers 2016-10-22T18:06:00Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:06:04Z younder: Not in implementaion. No. But this wa a prototype 2016-10-22T18:06:54Z Fare: I like that it automatically bridges between OO and IPS, pure and stateful styles 2016-10-22T18:07:50Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:08:15Z younder: Yes, even today, it doesnt feel stale. It has a life and a philosophy of coding of it's own. 2016-10-22T18:08:32Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T18:08:40Z younder: The love is still there :) 2016-10-22T18:09:10Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:09:31Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-22T18:10:00Z younder: There are a LOT of things Lisp got right. CLOS is jsut the icing of the cake. 2016-10-22T18:11:01Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:11:24Z younder: jSON is ironically a return to Lisp 2016-10-22T18:12:03Z nalik891 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T18:12:20Z Fare: Anyone interested in fixing ASDF? 2016-10-22T18:12:20Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:12:31Z Fare: taking it over? 2016-10-22T18:12:31Z wolphin joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:12:34Z younder: Java got to heavy and to awkward. The web developers wanted something lighter. They cam up with Lisp (well JSON) 2016-10-22T18:13:21Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:13:39Z younder: There is a new and refreshing mood in we developement. It has become fun again. 2016-10-22T18:13:54Z younder: s/we/web 2016-10-22T18:14:57Z nullniverse quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T18:15:17Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:15:48Z younder: I might sound strupid but what is wrong with ASDF? 2016-10-22T18:15:57Z Fare: so many things! 2016-10-22T18:16:06Z younder: elaborate 2016-10-22T18:17:28Z younder: I f we need to make it better we need feedback from the users 2016-10-22T18:17:58Z prole left #lisp 2016-10-22T18:18:46Z younder: I could have done a, DUH, it works fine for me 2016-10-22T18:19:13Z younder: What do you want? 2016-10-22T18:19:37Z wolphin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T18:19:41Z Fare: here are some major issues: A- syntax-control (readtables, etc.), B- incremental support recursive operate and defsystem-depends-on, C- cross-compilation, D- hermeticity, E- parallelization, F- support for other languages... 2016-10-22T18:20:16Z neuri8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-22T18:20:40Z younder: paralelization sonds like a strtch 2016-10-22T18:21:25Z Fare: it comes almost for free if you have cross-compilation and hermeticity 2016-10-22T18:21:30Z younder: Is there any support of cross compilation in SBCL? I don't think so 2016-10-22T18:21:58Z Fare: there's the lisp-invocation library that I originally wrote for xcvb. 2016-10-22T18:22:01Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:22:11Z Fare: It's being used by the asdf-tools test system 2016-10-22T18:22:39Z josteink joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:22:45Z younder: There is a new compilatin standard like LLVM 2016-10-22T18:22:58Z Fare: is there? 2016-10-22T18:23:13Z younder: It is cool 2016-10-22T18:23:37Z younder: Chromium uses it. I use it 2016-10-22T18:23:50Z Fare: "Compile to Javascript", you mean? 2016-10-22T18:23:53Z younder: http://clang.llvm.org/ 2016-10-22T18:24:03Z Fare: how is it a "standard"? 2016-10-22T18:24:11Z younder: Nop, This is compile on load 2016-10-22T18:24:12Z Fare: and what relevance to Lisp? 2016-10-22T18:24:24Z Fare: it's an old idea 2016-10-22T18:24:55Z Fare: slim binaries in the early 1990s. ANDF. UNCOL. 2016-10-22T18:25:06Z younder: compile to it. Use that compile on load machine. Use it's optimizer. Get better speed. 2016-10-22T18:25:23Z Fare: UNCOL 1958 2016-10-22T18:25:27Z jackdaniel: younder: if you are interested in common lisp targetting llvm, you may be interested in clang (there is #clang channel) 2016-10-22T18:25:40Z Fare: or in #clasp 2016-10-22T18:25:41Z jackdaniel: s/clang/clasp/ 2016-10-22T18:25:42Z younder: yes, I know 2016-10-22T18:26:19Z younder: I use clang, and haskell trough clang 2016-10-22T18:27:02Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:27:22Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-22T18:27:39Z younder: LLVM is a brilliant idea. You might want to look into it. 2016-10-22T18:28:41Z prole: hie, another noob question: after installing quicklisp, I changed the main directory (and changed so the sbcl init file); but (CL-LAUNCH::LOAD-QUICKLISP) just shows me an error saying it can't find the ql directory... I don't know what's wrong, if I need to add the quicklisp path into the cl-launch script, or if there is any asdf config file i need to configure (since asdf:*central-registery* return me the wrong pathname...) 2016-10-22T18:29:31Z younder: ' I changed the main directory' hat one 2016-10-22T18:29:34Z aeth: younder: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp 2016-10-22T18:29:43Z aeth: in case the very subtle mentions of clasp weren't obvious enough 2016-10-22T18:29:55Z wolphin joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:30:07Z aeth: (because it took me 3 reads) 2016-10-22T18:30:09Z prole: younder: I don't really want a quicklisp in my main user directory 2016-10-22T18:30:30Z younder: THINK. Where do the lisp lib's reside? 2016-10-22T18:30:46Z rjid quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-10-22T18:30:59Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:31:51Z younder: prole, you don't have to. But you still have to knw the path to the libraries 2016-10-22T18:31:59Z Fare: prole: where did you install Quicklisp? 2016-10-22T18:32:51Z younder: home//quicklish 2016-10-22T18:32:53Z prole: Fare: ~/.lisp/quicklisp, using the command (quicklisp-quickstart:install :path ".lisp/quicklisp/") 2016-10-22T18:32:55Z younder: by default 2016-10-22T18:33:02Z drmeister: younder: Where is this new compilation standard for llvm described? 2016-10-22T18:33:14Z prole: the lib are their: /usr/lib64/sbcl 2016-10-22T18:33:53Z younder: drmeister: LLVM.org 2016-10-22T18:34:14Z prole: there* 2016-10-22T18:35:07Z bdr3552 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:35:13Z prole: this variable asdf:*central-registry* returns the wrong path 2016-10-22T18:35:26Z prole: I don't find any asdf configuration file 2016-10-22T18:35:42Z younder: prole, mine is under /quicklisp. no '.lisp'. I am using Ubuntu 2016-10-22T18:35:57Z prole: Yeah, I changed the path with (quicklisp-quickstart:install :path ".lisp/quicklisp/") 2016-10-22T18:36:25Z prole: when I installed it, according to the quicklisp faq 2016-10-22T18:36:25Z Fare: prole: oh, cl-launch only knows about ~/quicklisp or ~/.quicklisp 2016-10-22T18:36:37Z Fare: maybe with a symlink from ~/.quicklisp to where you want? 2016-10-22T18:36:51Z prole: ok 2016-10-22T18:37:06Z drmeister: younder: Ah - so no announcement of anything new. Just LLVM. I'm already on top of that. Thanks. 2016-10-22T18:37:13Z prole: What is DEFAULT_USE_QUICKLISP="" for (in the cl-launch script) 2016-10-22T18:37:39Z Fare: prole: at cl-launch installation time, determine if -Q or +Q is the default. 2016-10-22T18:37:39Z younder: drmeister: yes that one. 2016-10-22T18:37:43Z prole: ok 2016-10-22T18:37:49Z prole: thanks a lot 2016-10-22T18:38:51Z aeth: Why wouldn't cl-launch check #'uiop/configuration:xdg-data-home for Quicklisp if it can't find it in the ~/quicklisp and ~/.quicklisp locations? 2016-10-22T18:39:13Z aeth: I'd assume at least one person wants to put it in ~/.local/share/quicklisp or something 2016-10-22T18:39:14Z younder: drmeister: clang, llvm and those old fellows. 2016-10-22T18:39:51Z beaky: hello 2016-10-22T18:40:08Z Fare: aeth: patches welcome 2016-10-22T18:40:21Z beaky: what books do you guys read to get to understand the gory details behind common lisp implementations 2016-10-22T18:40:32Z Fare: but the answer is, because cl-launch's support for quicklisp predates xdg-data-home. 2016-10-22T18:40:38Z drmeister: younder: What you described as "This is compile on load" doesn't really exist though. There is no general way to compile to llvm-ir and load that on arbitrary machines and compile it locally. llvm-ir is not a portable intermediate representation like java bytecode. 2016-10-22T18:40:41Z Bike: mostly just read the implementations. books are for nerds. 2016-10-22T18:40:43Z Fare: I mean, predates uiop:xdg-data-home 2016-10-22T18:41:17Z ASau` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T18:41:21Z younder: beaky, Christian Queinnec.' Lisp in samll pieces' 2016-10-22T18:41:22Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:41:45Z drmeister: There is pnacl (https://developer.chrome.com/native-client/nacl-and-pnacl) but it doesn't seem to be used much. 2016-10-22T18:41:50Z jackdaniel: beaky: if you are interested in how lisp is implemented, "Lisp in Small Pieces" is a good book, otherwise (if you are strictly interested in CL), you need to check the source 2016-10-22T18:42:03Z jackdaniel: ECL works on both NaCL and PNaCL 2016-10-22T18:42:07Z jackdaniel: (btw) 2016-10-22T18:42:07Z younder: drmeister: It compiles on load for the local architecture 2016-10-22T18:42:23Z Bike: man, i hope "PNaCL" is supposed to be pronounced like "pinochle" 2016-10-22T18:42:24Z beaky: ah 2016-10-22T18:42:30Z Fare: younder: what do you win by the late compile? 2016-10-22T18:42:31Z jackdaniel: heh 2016-10-22T18:42:43Z beaky: yes sbcl is like black magic to me 2016-10-22T18:42:44Z rjid quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-10-22T18:42:56Z beaky: (just like ghc and clang) 2016-10-22T18:43:22Z drmeister: beaky: I've gone down this road. There doesn't seem to be one great book describing implementation of Common Lisp. "Lisp In Small Pieces" goes more into Scheme. 2016-10-22T18:43:25Z jackdaniel: beaky: usually you bite a simple bug until you solve it, after a dozen of such iterations you know more or less what is put where 2016-10-22T18:43:37Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:43:39Z beaky: ah 2016-10-22T18:43:47Z younder: Fare, You can use the hardware that exists on that machine. The Graphics cart, the CPU, The memory all can be customized. So much better performance 2016-10-22T18:44:38Z Fare: I started this week with only a vague idea of how asdf would fully support nested operate. Thursday I was in mental pain as I desperately try to modify the code without a clear idea where I was going. But yesterday I reached a safe shore, and now the way is clearer. 2016-10-22T18:45:17Z Fare: younder: you should read my thesis on compilation so late, it's after the code has started being executed on a different CPU. 2016-10-22T18:46:16Z Fare: There this anguish of feeling so stupid and overwhelmed. And then there's the joy of having reached the other side. 2016-10-22T18:46:34Z Fare: And there's the test suite to keep you sane. 2016-10-22T18:47:18Z ASau` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T18:47:25Z paroneayea quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T18:47:58Z drmeister likes the expression 'reached a safe shore' and will use it going forward. 2016-10-22T18:48:00Z beaky: haha my life is that kind of anguish indeed 2016-10-22T18:48:07Z younder: Fare: Is you thesis online? If give an URL 2016-10-22T18:48:12Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:48:17Z Fare: younder: j.mp/FarePhD 2016-10-22T18:48:23Z Fare: incomplete 2016-10-22T18:48:40Z younder: and in full? 2016-10-22T18:49:06Z Fare: same place, in a year? 2016-10-22T18:49:41Z younder: Found it http://fare.tunes.org/tmp/phd/thesis.pdf 2016-10-22T18:49:53Z younder: google is worderful 2016-10-22T18:50:26Z paroneayea joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:50:31Z younder: So you are french. OK I speak French 2016-10-22T18:51:08Z Fare: younder, same URL. 2016-10-22T18:51:19Z younder: Fare: This is impressive stuff :) 2016-10-22T18:51:44Z Fare: what is? 2016-10-22T18:51:45Z younder: Fare: Did you relally pull this off? 2016-10-22T18:52:07Z younder: Fare: well I only got as far as the abstract 2016-10-22T18:52:28Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T18:53:23Z Fare: so... no, it's only vaporware. But vaporware with solid theoretical foundations 2016-10-22T18:54:18Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:54:19Z younder: Admittingly your presentaion is booring. But it describes someting exciting. 2016-10-22T18:54:33Z Fare wonders how much time to spend or not spend rewriting his git history to be in smaller chunks. 2016-10-22T18:55:07Z Fare: younder, you can try my presentation at BostonHaskell, it's probably slightly more entertaining than the incomplete thesis 2016-10-22T18:55:20Z younder: Fare. Reases are usaually a waste of time 2016-10-22T18:55:27Z younder: rebases 2016-10-22T18:55:50Z Fare: Depends. Not if you're going to get your code reviewed. 2016-10-22T18:56:02Z rogersm: Fare: looks interesting 2016-10-22T18:56:08Z rogersm: moved it to my ‘to read’ folder 2016-10-22T18:57:59Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-22T18:58:38Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T19:00:06Z rogersm quit (Quit: rogersm) 2016-10-22T19:01:56Z Fare: I haven't advanced much last month: using ASDF as procrastination. 2016-10-22T19:02:50Z younder: Fare: You should be firsly proud of thsi. This is noot a piecce of shit. The idea is materfull. It just needs more work. Pethaps you got lazy ;) 2016-10-22T19:05:03Z Fare: I got lazy for the last 20 years, dude 2016-10-22T19:05:13Z younder: Fare: You should be fiersly proud of this. This is not a piece of shit. The idea is materful. It just needs more work. Pethaps you got lazy ;) 2016-10-22T19:05:14Z Fare: this is only a rehash of the TUNES project 2016-10-22T19:05:27Z younder: Fare, Me too :) 2016-10-22T19:08:06Z younder: Fare: seriosly you are vastly underestimating yourself 2016-10-22T19:09:45Z beaky: yes ive not seen other work investigating that kind of runtime metaprogramming with such a formal approach 2016-10-22T19:09:58Z ebrasca: Can I use list as key for hashtable? 2016-10-22T19:10:10Z younder: yes 2016-10-22T19:11:11Z younder: You want it spelled out? 2016-10-22T19:11:45Z ebrasca: younder: (setf (gethash '(f j f) *hash-table*) 1) 2016-10-22T19:12:19Z younder: I could do that but I would rob you of the feel of victory from concering this problem. 2016-10-22T19:12:52Z younder: conkering 2016-10-22T19:12:59Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-22T19:13:14Z cromachina: conquering 2016-10-22T19:13:26Z younder: I give up.. My spellig is terribeø 2016-10-22T19:14:10Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: you need to add to make-hash-table :test #'equalp 2016-10-22T19:14:22Z younder: Sorry, my mind is clear, I seem to have a troble getting my ideas to the keyboard without interference 2016-10-22T19:14:35Z jackdaniel: or equal 2016-10-22T19:14:36Z younder: trouble 2016-10-22T19:15:40Z younder: jackdaniel, equalp is a bit havey. 2016-10-22T19:16:08Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Thanks you. 2016-10-22T19:16:13Z younder: going throgh all lists and all 2016-10-22T19:18:11Z younder: equal will do 2016-10-22T19:19:15Z bluezone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-22T19:21:35Z paroneay` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:22:06Z paroneayea quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T19:22:41Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T19:25:53Z paroneay` is now known as paroneayea 2016-10-22T19:27:47Z _death: flip214: yes, it's from scratch.. also I decided to move to package-inferred-system style, which caused modifications in all files 2016-10-22T19:30:31Z ASau`` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:31:43Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-22T19:31:57Z MetaHertz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T19:36:46Z otjura quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-22T19:39:21Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:39:30Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-22T19:40:17Z paroneay` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:42:13Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:44:12Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T19:44:44Z paroneayea quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T19:46:05Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:46:47Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:47:14Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:47:20Z klltkr: ferada: ping 2016-10-22T19:47:23Z paroneay` is now known as paroneayea 2016-10-22T19:50:29Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-22T19:50:41Z ferada: hmm? 2016-10-22T19:51:48Z ggole quit 2016-10-22T19:51:59Z paroneay` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:52:11Z ovenpasta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-22T19:52:18Z ovenpasta1 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:53:29Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:53:48Z paroneay` is now known as paroneayea` 2016-10-22T19:54:04Z paroneayea quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T19:54:11Z paroneayea` is now known as paroneayea 2016-10-22T19:54:38Z ovenpasta1 is now known as ovenpasta 2016-10-22T19:55:00Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T19:55:15Z ASau`` is now known as ASau 2016-10-22T19:56:19Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T19:57:46Z klltkr: ferada: Hey, not sure if you saw, but I added another change to my osicat pull request (https://github.com/osicat/osicat/pull/17). I changed (arg :int) to (arg :unsigned-long) in a second change to ioctl but I'm not actually sure what the correct type should be (it might not actually matter that much). Just wondered if you had any ideas what it should be? 2016-10-22T19:58:13Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T19:58:45Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-22T19:59:50Z paroneayea quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T20:00:00Z paroneayea joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:00:24Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T20:01:19Z ferada: klltkr: saw it, but i don't know what's "more correct" to be honest 2016-10-22T20:01:43Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T20:02:02Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:02:18Z ferada: as in, it probably won't matter too much; iolib uses :unsigned-int for the second parameter 2016-10-22T20:02:19Z fkae joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:02:22Z klltkr: Yeah 2016-10-22T20:02:28Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T20:02:44Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:03:15Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T20:03:33Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:04:21Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T20:04:37Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:04:56Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T20:05:00Z |||||||||||||||| is now known as bitch 2016-10-22T20:05:16Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-22T20:06:45Z fkae quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T20:07:59Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T20:08:16Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:08:32Z paroneay` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:09:34Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:09:38Z paroneayea quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T20:09:45Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T20:10:29Z paroneay` is now known as paroneayea 2016-10-22T20:11:24Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:11:26Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:14:41Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:16:08Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T20:16:35Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T20:16:52Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:17:02Z tekoh joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:17:09Z tekoh: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-10-22T20:20:10Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T20:22:21Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T20:23:07Z paroneay` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:24:49Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:25:06Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T20:26:07Z diphuser joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:26:15Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:27:40Z paroneayea quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T20:29:58Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:34:40Z paroneay` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T20:39:21Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-22T20:40:51Z paroneayea joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:41:06Z paroneay` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:44:59Z Elronnd joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:45:03Z Yuuhi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-22T20:45:24Z paroneayea quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T20:45:33Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-22T20:45:40Z Elronnd: I want to learn lisp. What's a good tutorial? 2016-10-22T20:46:14Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:46:21Z klltkr: Practical Common Lisp 2016-10-22T20:46:32Z klltkr: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2016-10-22T20:47:35Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:50:11Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:51:49Z ovenpasta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T20:52:07Z paroneay` is now known as paroneayea 2016-10-22T20:52:07Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:52:50Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:53:47Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T20:56:10Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:56:52Z paroneay` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T20:57:50Z paroneayea quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T20:59:10Z paroneay` is now known as paroneayea 2016-10-22T21:00:38Z heurist joined #lisp 2016-10-22T21:01:47Z heurist__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-22T21:03:57Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-22T21:04:54Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T21:05:14Z paroneay` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T21:06:23Z paroneayea quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T21:12:44Z tekoh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-22T21:12:47Z prole: I just have a last question about cl-lauch (or maybe it's not specific): how to live the script when a shell command is still running? I did a little video player, but the software don't close when the player is open 2016-10-22T21:12:58Z prole: Maybe should I use a return, I dont' know 2016-10-22T21:13:26Z prole: (video player player exactly... just a little script) 2016-10-22T21:13:52Z CEnnis91 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T21:14:55Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T21:15:28Z prole: I'll look about inferior-shell, sorry 2016-10-22T21:15:44Z paroneay` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T21:17:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-22T21:18:07Z younder: Don't apologize thet is a real question, a real concern 2016-10-22T21:19:14Z younder: I'm not sure I understand it myself, but that is not the way it is suppose to bbehave 2016-10-22T21:21:13Z prole: It's just that when I execute a run command (from inferior-shell), to open a video with mpv, the script stays open until the video ends. I'm just searching a way to make the process be in background and the script end. 2016-10-22T21:22:40Z adlai: Fare: arguably OT, but i think that git history rewriting should be yin, rather than yang, if you catch my drift 2016-10-22T21:25:23Z younder: prole hav e you truied a -F exit ? 2016-10-22T21:25:58Z prole: I don't know this option 2016-10-22T21:26:27Z younder: I'ts on http://www.cliki.net/cl-launch 2016-10-22T21:26:53Z younder: It is icredably long and complex 2016-10-22T21:27:00Z prole: yeah, i'm reading it now 2016-10-22T21:27:03Z adlai clarifies: a 'yang' rewrite strategy involves infrequent massive commits, with no planning, until you one day do a massive history rewrite and restructure all the intervening history in a sensible manner; whereas a 'yang' rewrite strategy involves frequent small commits, with periodic merging into sensible chunks, and occasional merging of chunks into logical refactoring meta-commits 2016-10-22T21:28:19Z prole: younder: yeah, I can feel the work in it 2016-10-22T21:29:28Z Bike: adlai i don't think anyone could possibly get that out of "should be yin" 2016-10-22T21:30:00Z adlai: which is why i clarified! :) 2016-10-22T21:30:30Z prole: younder: the -F exit option returns that the exit function is unbound :( 2016-10-22T21:31:14Z younder: quit() 2016-10-22T21:31:53Z wolphin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-22T21:34:27Z paroneayea joined #lisp 2016-10-22T21:39:57Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-22T21:40:37Z paroneay` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T21:40:43Z paroneayea quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T21:46:24Z paroneay` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T21:48:56Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-22T21:54:33Z bdr3552 left #lisp 2016-10-22T21:54:35Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-22T22:00:25Z frgo joined #lisp 2016-10-22T22:01:58Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T22:03:05Z Guest7479 quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-22T22:03:21Z jokleinn1 joined #lisp 2016-10-22T22:04:06Z Anselma joined #lisp 2016-10-22T22:04:28Z roscoe_t` joined #lisp 2016-10-22T22:04:35Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2016-10-22T22:05:03Z jokleinn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T22:05:03Z Colleen quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-10-22T22:05:04Z Colleen_ is now known as Colleen 2016-10-22T22:05:06Z Anselmo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-22T22:05:44Z Anselma is now known as Anselmo 2016-10-22T22:05:58Z roscoe_tw quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-10-22T22:06:19Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-22T22:07:09Z wolphin joined #lisp 2016-10-22T22:08:47Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-22T23:35:17Z klltkr: Hmm, on SBCL I can use defcallback in a function...can't seem to do that in CCL 2016-10-22T23:35:49Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-22T23:36:16Z Bike: krwq: that's what you do. maybe cl-heredoc's package is not called cl-heredoc? 2016-10-22T23:37:07Z KaliLinuxGR quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T23:39:04Z krwq: Bike: It seems to be called cl-heredoc-system but it also doesn't seem to work. I have this: (defpackage #:test2 (:use #:cl :cl-heredoc-system)...) 2016-10-22T23:39:23Z krwq: Bike: https://github.com/e-user/cl-heredoc/blob/master/cl-heredoc.asd 2016-10-22T23:39:25Z Bike: at the time you are evaluating this defpackage, is cl-heredoc loaded? 2016-10-22T23:39:47Z Bike: https://github.com/e-user/cl-heredoc/blob/master/src/package.lisp looks like you want cl-heredoc. 2016-10-22T23:39:49Z klltkr: "Portability note: defcallback will not work correctly on some Lisps if it’s not a top-level form." :'( 2016-10-22T23:39:55Z krwq: Bike: it is not 2016-10-22T23:40:05Z Bike: ok. well. there's your problem. 2016-10-22T23:40:14Z Bike: can't use a package that doesn't exist. 2016-10-22T23:40:15Z krwq: Bike: actually it was cl-heredoc: https://github.com/e-user/cl-heredoc/blob/master/src/package.lisp 2016-10-22T23:41:20Z krwq: Bike: I don't get how to work with common lisp in slime then. I installed slime, created proj with quickproject i evaluated my package.lisp with C-c C-k and then started editing my mypackage.lisp and evaluate it 2016-10-22T23:41:33Z krwq: Bike: how do you make that thing load automatically 2016-10-22T23:42:15Z Bike: put cl-heredoc in the dependencies of your project, and load your project with ql:quickload to begin work. 2016-10-22T23:42:36Z krwq: is there any way to edit my project and immediately see changes? 2016-10-22T23:42:47Z krwq: it's pretty annoying to have to type something each time i change anything 2016-10-22T23:42:55Z Bike: yeah, C-c C-k like you were doing. just make sure it's quickloaded first. 2016-10-22T23:45:26Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-22T23:46:04Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-22T23:46:29Z krwq: Bike: i think my slime hanged during quickload, also how do i know that my package will get loaded and not someone else which possibly called it with the same name 2016-10-22T23:47:00Z Bike: if your project is in local-projects it will have higher priority. avoid name conflicts though. 2016-10-22T23:47:38Z wolphin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T23:47:41Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-22T23:48:25Z krwq: Bike: is local-projects emacs var? 2016-10-22T23:48:27Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T23:48:50Z Bike: it's a folder. i think it's where quickproject puts things? or maybe quickproject reassigns the priorities anyway. 2016-10-22T23:49:03Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-22T23:50:39Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-22T23:50:48Z wolphin joined #lisp 2016-10-22T23:50:53Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-22T23:52:13Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-22T23:55:41Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-22T23:55:52Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-22T23:56:46Z raydeejay: Bike: quickproject creates the directory in the current directory 2016-10-22T23:58:10Z raydeejay: krwq: ^ 2016-10-22T23:59:14Z krwq: raydeejay: where should i create my projects then? how do i make quickload know about my project? 2016-10-22T23:59:29Z raydeejay: the local-projects directory is usually ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 2016-10-22T23:59:55Z axion: alternatively, you can place them anywhere, and update asdf's source registry 2016-10-23T00:01:09Z krwq: thanks! 2016-10-23T00:01:13Z axion: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems.html 2016-10-23T00:01:51Z krwq: oh, i actually had ~/common-lisp completely by accident 2016-10-23T00:02:02Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-23T00:03:23Z krwq: so i still am getting error: 'The name "CL-HEREDOC" does not designate any package.' even though i load my project using quickload 2016-10-23T00:04:01Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-23T00:04:05Z Bike: did you actually put cl-heredoc in your project's dependencies 2016-10-23T00:04:53Z krwq: Bike: I have this: (:use #:cl :cl-heredoc) 2016-10-23T00:05:00Z Bike: that is your package definition 2016-10-23T00:05:07Z Bike: i am asking about the system definition, in whatever.asd 2016-10-23T00:05:07Z krwq: Bike: under defpackage 2016-10-23T00:05:16Z Bike: they are distinct entities 2016-10-23T00:05:58Z krwq: Bike: I didn't know i have to do that, how do you do that? :dependencies (:cl-heredoc) ? 2016-10-23T00:06:38Z Bike: :depends-on (:cl-heredoc) 2016-10-23T00:07:33Z krwq: Bike: nice, works! so what is that entry in the package.lisp for? 2016-10-23T00:07:43Z krwq: the :use section 2016-10-23T00:07:48Z Bike: that changes the package definition. systems are distinct from packages 2016-10-23T00:07:52Z raydeejay: clhs use-package 2016-10-23T00:07:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_use_pk.htm 2016-10-23T00:08:01Z Bike: packages are sort of like namespaces, if you're used to that concept 2016-10-23T00:08:16Z Bike: systems are the things that you load, that organize which files are involved, that include project dependencies, that sort of stuff 2016-10-23T00:08:28Z krwq: so does including a package makes it so i can use all the functions without the prefix? 2016-10-23T00:08:46Z Bike: in the package definition, yes. you can use the exported symbols without a package prefix. 2016-10-23T00:09:00Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-23T00:09:04Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-23T00:09:36Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-23T00:09:50Z krwq: Bike: so except for that what is the difference of adding something in :use and not? 2016-10-23T00:09:59Z Bike: that is all it does. 2016-10-23T00:10:35Z krwq: Bike: ok that makes sense, it feels like it's similar to using namespace from C++ 2016-10-23T00:10:39Z krwq: Bike: thanks! 2016-10-23T00:10:46Z klltkr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T00:11:51Z Bike: sure. 2016-10-23T00:12:19Z krwq: did you ever use reader macros so that you are able to load i.e. python file and then change the syntax and save back to python? 2016-10-23T00:12:37Z Bike: python's a bit much to do with reader macros. 2016-10-23T00:13:05Z krwq: Bike: true but antlr4 has definitions of all the grammars so you might be able to just parse antlr4 and use that to generate reader macros 2016-10-23T00:13:55Z Bike: reader macros don't really work for parsing arbitrary languages. you could, of course, just have your own parser function, from antlr4 or what ever, and parse files with that. 2016-10-23T00:14:34Z krwq: Bike: why not? 2016-10-23T00:14:44Z krwq: Bike: so how do you parse languages 2016-10-23T00:14:56Z Bike: a parser function. naturally. 2016-10-23T00:15:10Z krwq: Bike: isn't that what reader macro is? 2016-10-23T00:15:17Z Bike: reader macros allow text starting with a particular character to be parsed by a particular function. 2016-10-23T00:15:31Z Bike: in python, e.g., you'd have to do this for every character that can begin an identifier 2016-10-23T00:15:34Z Bike: which would be dumb. 2016-10-23T00:15:59Z krwq: Bike: true but you can write a lot of macros which boost writing reader macros 2016-10-23T00:15:59Z raydeejay: maybe you're thinking of regular macros? 2016-10-23T00:16:23Z krwq: i'd like to take my bash script and translate it into windows batch 2016-10-23T00:16:25Z Bike: i don't know what you mean. 2016-10-23T00:16:59Z Bike: i don't see the point of hacking the lisp reader to do this anyway. whether you use cl:read or my-parse-python you can get sexps or whatever. 2016-10-23T00:17:50Z krwq: Bike: so how do you parse languages most efficiently? what are the libs for that? 2016-10-23T00:18:36Z Bike: http://www.cliki.net/parser%20generator though it's maybe slightly old 2016-10-23T00:20:39Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-23T00:26:18Z wolphin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-23T00:27:08Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-23T00:27:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-23T00:29:29Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-23T00:31:48Z wolphin joined #lisp 2016-10-23T00:31:53Z krwq: Bike: I think antlr4 generates output in language which kinda looks like lisp i think i'll just get output and start reading it in lisp 2016-10-23T00:34:16Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-23T00:37:55Z wolphin quit (Quit: wolphin) 2016-10-23T00:39:08Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T00:39:52Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T00:43:11Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T00:44:43Z floatingman_1 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T00:49:29Z floatingman quit 2016-10-23T00:50:28Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-23T00:50:52Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-23T00:50:56Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T00:52:52Z sharkteeth joined #lisp 2016-10-23T00:56:28Z p_l joined #lisp 2016-10-23T00:57:34Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-23T01:00:13Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-23T01:02:30Z floatingman_1 is now known as floatingman 2016-10-23T01:03:02Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:03:11Z floatingman is now known as floatingman_1 2016-10-23T01:05:14Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:05:54Z warweasle: I'm trying out streaming my clinch development on twitch. 2016-10-23T01:06:13Z floatingman_1 is now known as help 2016-10-23T01:06:20Z warweasle: twitch.tv/warweasle if you are interested. I don't promise anything. 2016-10-23T01:06:22Z help is now known as floatingman 2016-10-23T01:08:30Z kamog quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T01:08:31Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:09:06Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:11:06Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:11:07Z kamog joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:13:39Z cromachina: warweasle why not destructuring-bind there instead of guessing indices? 2016-10-23T01:13:51Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:14:04Z warweasle: cromachina: Because that would be too easy? 2016-10-23T01:14:08Z cromachina: lol 2016-10-23T01:14:22Z pacon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T01:15:53Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T01:17:24Z axion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T01:17:36Z axion joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:17:45Z cromachina: paredit may help with that paren fluff 2016-10-23T01:20:07Z cromachina: warweasle: and an emacs func to help with all that tabbing http://paste.lisp.org/display/329283 2016-10-23T01:21:23Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-23T01:23:10Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:25:55Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:26:39Z jokleinn1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-23T01:28:21Z klltkr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T01:29:09Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:29:28Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:29:46Z Kundry_Wag quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-23T01:30:07Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:30:25Z jokleinn1 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:35:31Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-23T01:41:16Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T01:41:51Z binghe quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-23T01:42:38Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T01:45:20Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:48:40Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-23T01:51:25Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-23T01:55:06Z sharkteeth quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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I'm just absent minded. 2016-10-23T02:07:02Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-23T02:08:57Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-23T02:09:05Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-23T02:09:16Z paroneayea quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T02:10:15Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-23T02:11:18Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-23T02:11:34Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-23T02:11:36Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-23T02:11:36Z paroneay` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T02:13:16Z paroneayea joined #lisp 2016-10-23T02:20:58Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-23T02:25:47Z cromachina: warweasle: the RL i play the most is DCSS 2016-10-23T02:25:53Z cromachina: played ADOM long ago 2016-10-23T02:26:06Z warweasle: What's DCSS? 2016-10-23T02:26:21Z npatrick04 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T02:26:35Z cromachina: https://crawl.develz.org/ 2016-10-23T02:26:47Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T02:26:49Z kamog quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T02:26:51Z cromachina: we could use discord 2016-10-23T02:28:56Z cromachina: discord servers are hosted by the devs for free 2016-10-23T02:29:27Z warweasle: Does it let us see our desktops? 2016-10-23T02:29:59Z cromachina: no, it's just chat and voip 2016-10-23T02:30:12Z cromachina: you may be thinking of teamviewer 2016-10-23T02:30:27Z paroneayea: DCSS is great 2016-10-23T02:31:48Z cromachina: i have 333 games in my library so far 2016-10-23T02:32:06Z cromachina: often i just buy games and never play them 2016-10-23T02:32:15Z cromachina: thank you based disposable income 2016-10-23T02:32:26Z warweasle: cromachina: Ok...Then maybe I'm semi-normal. 2016-10-23T02:32:41Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T02:33:55Z cromachina: if you like programming puzzles, zachtronics makes a lot of gems. if you like shooting games, i recommend blue revolver which came out just recently 2016-10-23T02:33:59Z cromachina: awesome soundtrack 2016-10-23T02:34:04Z cromachina: http://store.steampowered.com/app/439490/ 2016-10-23T02:36:27Z cromachina: lol 2016-10-23T02:38:06Z cromachina: towerclimb for another interesting variant of RL http://store.steampowered.com/app/396640/ 2016-10-23T02:38:46Z cromachina: good inspiration for sound design 2016-10-23T02:38:49Z warweasle: Is there a zelda-style roguelike? Mostly sword and stuff. 2016-10-23T02:40:19Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T02:40:50Z cromachina: nothing i've played: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_5_9__12&term=zelda+roguelike 2016-10-23T02:44:28Z CEnnis91 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T02:45:39Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T02:45:50Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-23T02:47:10Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T02:47:25Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-23T02:47:47Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T02:48:36Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-23T09:25:04Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T09:25:07Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T09:29:09Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2016-10-23T09:29:52Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-23T09:34:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-23T09:37:58Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-23T09:39:15Z bluezone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-23T10:04:41Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:05:06Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:09:44Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:12:28Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:13:28Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:17:52Z yaewa quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-23T10:18:10Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:25:33Z diphuser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T10:26:12Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T10:32:50Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-23T10:33:09Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:33:31Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:34:34Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T10:36:03Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:41:40Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:46:13Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-23T10:47:55Z alkesandr joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:48:42Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-23T10:51:53Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:00:13Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-23T11:02:44Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-23T11:07:57Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:08:06Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:11:43Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:17:20Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-23T11:17:40Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:20:05Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:20:36Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:26:01Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-23T11:26:23Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:34:58Z ak5 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-23T11:34:58Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T11:35:36Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:37:15Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:37:20Z adlai: the AI landscape in lisp is... concave :D 2016-10-23T11:42:33Z freedom01 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-23T11:42:51Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:45:12Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:45:36Z JuanDaugherty: gabbiel left 2016-10-23T11:45:49Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T11:46:03Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:46:10Z flacko quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-23T11:46:29Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:48:01Z freedom01 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:48:23Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-23T11:48:45Z flacko joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:54:22Z adlai: but you didn't! 2016-10-23T11:54:29Z JuanDaugherty: no i didn 2016-10-23T11:54:47Z JuanDaugherty: i joined 2016-10-23T11:54:52Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T11:54:53Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:55:03Z adlai: thank you, good evevning, welcome 2016-10-23T11:57:42Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-23T11:58:22Z titankiller quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-23T11:59:02Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:00:09Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:01:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:03:16Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:04:18Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-23T12:05:52Z razzy89 quit (Quit: razzy89) 2016-10-23T12:06:36Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T12:09:16Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:10:41Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-23T12:13:02Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:13:49Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:15:26Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-23T12:15:29Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T12:15:30Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T12:15:49Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:16:59Z rszeno joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:18:37Z DrCode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T12:22:20Z danieli quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-23T12:22:51Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:24:00Z klltkr: It's great when you figure something out :) 2016-10-23T12:25:28Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-23T12:27:07Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:28:17Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:29:00Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:29:36Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:36:03Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:37:14Z klltkr: ulubis now runs on ccl :) 2016-10-23T12:38:36Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:42:32Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T12:43:55Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:47:08Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-23T12:47:27Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:48:38Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-23T12:53:31Z NitroWheels quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T12:54:05Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:54:50Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:56:31Z NitroWheels quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T12:56:35Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-23T12:56:58Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:58:00Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-23T12:58:03Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:01:29Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T13:01:43Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:01:51Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-10-23T13:10:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:12:18Z titankiller quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-23T13:13:36Z Ioann quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T13:15:39Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:16:11Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-23T13:17:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:17:14Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:17:45Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T13:23:44Z pipping: "A Wayland compositor written in Common Lisp" -- https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis 2016-10-23T13:24:16Z pipping: Ah, so that's what it is. The name rather conjured up the image of something on the periodic table with an order number > 100 2016-10-23T13:25:34Z pipping: raydeejay: in all honesty: how many bad CL dreams have you had so far? ;) 2016-10-23T13:25:36Z H4ns: excuse my ignorancce, but what is a "compositor" in this context? 2016-10-23T13:26:33Z beaky: damn sbcl is so impressive 2016-10-23T13:26:44Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:27:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T13:27:35Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T13:27:36Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T13:27:46Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T13:28:31Z NitroWheels quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T13:28:43Z DrCode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T13:28:51Z minion joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:28:57Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:29:29Z specbot joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:30:54Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:31:44Z H4ns found out that a "wayland compositor" is basically what an "x server" would be in x, only with a different feature set. 2016-10-23T13:39:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:40:00Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T13:40:00Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T13:41:43Z minion joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:41:43Z specbot joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:47:08Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:48:06Z razzy89 quit (Quit: razzy89) 2016-10-23T13:48:11Z schoppenhauer quit (Quit: Adé) 2016-10-23T13:48:21Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:48:29Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-23T13:48:35Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-23T13:50:14Z flacko quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2016-10-23T13:50:29Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:51:39Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T13:51:39Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T13:52:09Z beaky: i hope this LiSP book will help elucidate on the black magic that is SBCL 2016-10-23T13:52:36Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:52:44Z beaky: btw can CLOS generic functions do clojure-style dispatch on values vs. just CLOS object types 2016-10-23T13:52:58Z raydeejay: pipping: um.... none xD 2016-10-23T13:53:01Z raydeejay: why should I? 2016-10-23T13:53:03Z beaky: aww 2016-10-23T13:53:06Z minion joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:53:06Z specbot joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:54:32Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-23T13:56:41Z ggole: beaky: there's an eql specifier, but nothing more than that 2016-10-23T13:56:42Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-23T13:59:05Z loke``: beaky: What is displatch on values? 2016-10-23T13:59:16Z loke``: beaky: As ggole said, you can do it using eql specifiers. 2016-10-23T13:59:31Z beaky: right will read up on eql specifiers 2016-10-23T14:03:20Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T14:05:43Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-23T14:05:58Z Glitchy: What does a hash or pound sign before a keyword mean? 2016-10-23T14:07:01Z scymtym: beaky: non-standard, non-portable, and work-in-progress, but maybe https://github.com/sbcl/specializable/tree/pattern-specializer-sat is interesting for you 2016-10-23T14:07:33Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-23T14:09:20Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T14:09:26Z beaky: wow neat thanks https://github.com/sbcl/specializable/blob/pattern-specializer-sat/examples/accept-specializer.lisp i like this example usag e on http requests 2016-10-23T14:11:32Z pipping: raydeejay: I was just wondering how much this was based on past experience vvv 2016-10-23T14:11:38Z pipping: > no cons demons will come to haunt me in my dreams or anything then" 2016-10-23T14:11:38Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-23T14:13:16Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-23T14:16:18Z beaky: my only lisp dream is of rich hickey 2016-10-23T14:17:43Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Banks' The Algebraist :) 2016-10-23T14:48:34Z daniel-s quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T14:48:49Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-23T14:50:02Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-10-23T14:51:43Z JoshYoshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T14:51:48Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T14:54:13Z Jameser quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T14:55:27Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-23T14:56:17Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T14:56:31Z Guest26 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T14:59:34Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:00:28Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-23T15:00:43Z younder quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-10-23T15:01:43Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:04:48Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:07:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T15:08:51Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:09:07Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:09:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:11:02Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-23T15:12:37Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-23T15:15:04Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:17:34Z klltkr: I was very silly and managed to name a function incf-pointer (for changing the location of a cursor) 2016-10-23T15:18:11Z klltkr: Caused quite the confusion when something completely unrelated was crashing...cffi already names incf-pointer :) 2016-10-23T15:18:29Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:18:50Z otwieracz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T15:20:27Z beaky: wow nice 2016-10-23T15:26:16Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-23T15:27:57Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-23T15:30:00Z loke``: klltkr: I recommend never using :import or :use. That way these things never happen. 2016-10-23T15:30:09Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-23T15:31:47Z attila_lendvai: I recommend to first always start out without using :use and :import. then if there's too much prefixing, then move on with :import-from or :use but consider the cost of potential confusions. you may consider using package nicknames if the name is too long, especially where package-local nicknames are supported. 2016-10-23T15:31:59Z setheus joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:34:09Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-23T15:35:17Z beaky: yes i like fully qualifying my names 2016-10-23T15:35:36Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:35:37Z beaky: makes my lisp look java-like 2016-10-23T15:36:18Z loke``: beaky: In Java you typically do not prefix your names. 2016-10-23T15:37:19Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:39:06Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:41:05Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-23T15:42:00Z Guest26 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-23T15:43:45Z kamog joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:44:04Z beaky: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/GMx6gjESVZw%5B1-25%5D hmm interesting critique of common lisp by a lisper 2016-10-23T15:44:31Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:44:50Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-23T15:46:32Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:46:43Z raydeejay: that's 10 years old and contains a hefty dose of handwaving 2016-10-23T15:47:21Z raydeejay: not saying it doesn't have its points... 2016-10-23T15:47:43Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T15:48:15Z beaky: ye point 3. doesnt seem to be too worrying 2016-10-23T15:48:34Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:50:12Z klltkr left #lisp 2016-10-23T15:50:29Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:50:36Z raydeejay: neither are the other two 2016-10-23T15:50:46Z nilof joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:50:50Z klltkr: loke``: My first thought was "never use use"! 2016-10-23T15:53:30Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-23T15:54:34Z raydeejay feels that use and import are perfectly fine for small packages 2016-10-23T15:55:12Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-23T15:56:38Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-23T15:59:44Z heurist`_ joined #lisp 2016-10-23T16:01:26Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T16:01:59Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-10-23T16:02:44Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2016-10-23T21:23:31Z krwq: slime-eval seems to be good but it runs that in the current session of slime 2016-10-23T21:24:02Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-23T21:25:09Z e joined #lisp 2016-10-23T21:26:58Z pjb` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T21:27:56Z pjb` joined #lisp 2016-10-23T21:28:31Z pjb`: Why do I get this error now: Invalid asdf output-translation (T (:HOME ".cache" common-lisp" :HOSTNAME :IMPLEMENTATION)) in… 2016-10-23T21:29:13Z Yuuhi` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T21:30:43Z clog joined #lisp 2016-10-23T21:34:11Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-23T21:36:19Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-23T21:37:19Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-23T21:38:46Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T21:42:24Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-23T21:53:08Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T21:54:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T21:55:28Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T21:55:49Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T21:57:37Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-23T21:58:57Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2016-10-23T21:59:01Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T21:59:34Z jack_ joined #lisp 2016-10-23T21:59:35Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-23T22:00:54Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-23T22:01:18Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-10-23T22:01:38Z pjb`` joined #lisp 2016-10-23T22:01:40Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-10-23T22:03:17Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-23T22:04:38Z heurist`_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-23T22:06:01Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-23T22:07:47Z pjb`` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-10-23T22:08:13Z pjb` joined #lisp 2016-10-23T22:09:02Z pjb`: Why do I get this error now: Invalid asdf output-translation (T (:HOME ".cache" "common-lisp" :HOSTNAME :IMPLEMENTATION)) in… ? 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2016-10-24T00:16:03Z rpg: pierpa: I am 2016-10-24T00:16:19Z pierpa: I'm observing a very weird phenomenon 2016-10-24T00:16:22Z rpg: but I'm going to have to go AFK very soon. So can answer a quick question, otherwise catch me later.... 2016-10-24T00:16:36Z pierpa: ok, I'll ask again tomorrow 2016-10-24T00:16:40Z pierpa: see you ;) 2016-10-24T00:18:23Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:29:30Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-24T00:29:48Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:31:36Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:32:12Z dwrngr` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:32:59Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:32:59Z sebboh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:33:04Z sebboh` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:33:22Z pierpa: rpg: turned out that a mistake in my code produces a very weird error message... 2016-10-24T00:35:45Z dwrngr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:38:55Z pierpa: which can be reduced to: (in 42) ==> > Error: Unbound variable: ITERATE::*BLOCK-NAME* 2016-10-24T00:38:55Z pierpa: 2016-10-24T00:41:37Z jack_ quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-24T00:41:39Z eschatologist quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-24T00:41:48Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:41:55Z jack_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:42:16Z Ober_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:42:18Z ferada_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:42:23Z cods_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:42:28Z impulse- joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:42:28Z f32ff_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:42:36Z funnel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:42:43Z cross_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:43:38Z cpt_nemo quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-10-24T00:43:38Z samebchase quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-10-24T00:43:38Z Ober quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-10-24T00:43:38Z f32ff quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-10-24T00:43:38Z funnel quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T00:43:38Z pchrist quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-10-24T00:43:38Z rpg quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-24T00:43:40Z ferada quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T00:43:40Z cross quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T00:43:41Z cods quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T00:43:41Z impulse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T00:43:42Z funnel_ is now known as funnel 2016-10-24T00:43:44Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:44:45Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T00:44:50Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:44:54Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:46:29Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:46:48Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:48:19Z samebchase joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:48:52Z bitch is now known as \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 2016-10-24T00:49:58Z pchrist joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:50:55Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:51:35Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:51:55Z cods joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:52:21Z warweasle: I'm on twitch again tonight. 2016-10-24T00:52:48Z ski_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:52:55Z setheus_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:52:57Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:53:12Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:53:12Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:53:12Z cods_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:53:12Z kamog quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:53:12Z Guest26840 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:53:12Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:53:12Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:53:36Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:53:38Z KaliLinuxGR quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T00:54:15Z KaliLinuxGR joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:54:54Z ski_ is now known as ski 2016-10-24T00:55:09Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T00:56:11Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-24T00:59:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:00:22Z pillton: What is "twitch"? 2016-10-24T01:00:32Z phoe: pillton: video streaming service 2016-10-24T01:00:43Z warweasle: pillton: twitch.tv/warweasle 2016-10-24T01:01:04Z warweasle: pillton: You can watch me work while I make clinch and snide comments. 2016-10-24T01:01:43Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:02:07Z killmaster_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:02:42Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:02:42Z killmaster_ is now known as killmaster 2016-10-24T01:05:20Z warweasle: Mostly I'm trying to motivate myself. 2016-10-24T01:05:41Z pillton: Right. Not sure how snide comments improve motivation. 2016-10-24T01:05:43Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:05:52Z pillton: :) 2016-10-24T01:06:27Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:06:38Z pillton: You should be focusing on how to motivate other people to do your work. 2016-10-24T01:06:45Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:09:18Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:12:07Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:12:07Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-24T01:14:32Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:16:30Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:17:33Z rtmpdavid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:17:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:17:58Z aeth joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:18:53Z ekinmur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:19:52Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:20:13Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:20:39Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-10-24T01:21:39Z warweasle: pillton: Well, I'm trying to attract people to clinch. So yeah... 2016-10-24T01:23:12Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:23:59Z \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ is now known as bitch 2016-10-24T01:24:19Z warweasle: pillton: I've thought about using cash. 2016-10-24T01:24:48Z warweasle: But the lisp curse: By the time I can describe the problem enough for someone to implement it, I could have done it myself. 2016-10-24T01:25:44Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:30:37Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:30:37Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:30:52Z yrdz` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:30:53Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:31:06Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-24T01:31:50Z Mandus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:31:50Z kolko_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:31:51Z eli quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:31:51Z dlowe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:31:51Z nopf quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:31:51Z yeltzooo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:31:51Z peccu quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:31:51Z markmarkmark quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:31:51Z Wojciech_K quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:31:51Z Urfin quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:31:51Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:31:51Z zagura quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:02Z Mandus joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:32:18Z LahlStephan joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:32:27Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T01:32:27Z zeraceth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:27Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:27Z H4ns quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:27Z fnord____ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:28Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:28Z cebreidian quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:28Z StephanLahl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:28Z ec\ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:28Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:28Z zbigniew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:28Z Fade quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:28Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:28Z pok quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:29Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:32:29Z tokenrove quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:33:08Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:33:09Z nopf joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:33:12Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:33:12Z zagura joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:33:45Z ghostlight quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:33:50Z zbigniew joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:33:53Z z0d joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:33:59Z ec\ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:33:59Z Fade joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:34:04Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:34:15Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:34:39Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:36:04Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:36:13Z Xach: hee hee 2016-10-24T01:36:13Z yeltzooo joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:36:19Z Xach: clinch is the best 2016-10-24T01:36:56Z msb joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:37:07Z joast joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:37:25Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T01:37:25Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:37:31Z dan64 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:38:05Z warweasle: Xach: Thanks! 2016-10-24T01:38:05Z warweasle: Xach: When is your next fund raiser? 2016-10-24T01:38:28Z Xach: warweasle: "soon" 2016-10-24T01:38:29Z Urfin joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:38:33Z Xach: possibly before november! 2016-10-24T01:38:41Z dlowe joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:38:48Z pok joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:38:50Z warweasle: "When will it be now?" "Soon!" 2016-10-24T01:38:52Z ft joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:39:01Z tokenrove joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:39:01Z zerac joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:39:52Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:39:58Z cebreidian joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:43:57Z phoe: I'm having some issues with CL-WHO indentation 2016-10-24T01:44:18Z phoe: in my Emacs/Slime. 2016-10-24T01:44:49Z markmarkmark joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:44:56Z phoe: https://i.sli.mg/HUuZQh.png this namely. 2016-10-24T01:45:08Z phoe: I'd like :H1 to be at the same depth as :TITLE. 2016-10-24T01:45:23Z phoe: Obviously the :ID "main" is breaking things. 2016-10-24T01:45:43Z omilu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T01:45:44Z peccu joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:49:07Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:49:29Z test1600 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T01:50:01Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:50:02Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:54:30Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-24T01:59:18Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T01:59:37Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:01:29Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T02:08:24Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:08:31Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-24T02:09:24Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-24T02:13:04Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T02:13:26Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:13:54Z phoe: Hey beach! 2016-10-24T02:14:21Z beach: phoe: Are you up late or early? 2016-10-24T02:14:31Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T02:14:59Z phoe: beach: up late. 2016-10-24T02:15:16Z phoe: Oh, and I think that I just found a bug in clack/hunchentoot. 2016-10-24T02:15:32Z phoe: That might lead to internbombing the keyword package. 2016-10-24T02:15:40Z beach: Congratulations! 2016-10-24T02:16:18Z phoe: When I POST a message like "hello", the ENV contains :REQUEST-METHOD :POST 2016-10-24T02:16:35Z phoe: but then, on the very next POST, the ENV contains :REQUEST-METHOD :MESSAGE=HELLOPOST 2016-10-24T02:16:46Z phoe: and the :MESSAGE=HELLOPOST is actually interned in the keyword package. 2016-10-24T02:17:02Z phoe: but it seems to contain the HELLO that I sent it in the previous iteration! 2016-10-24T02:17:08Z phoe resorts to GET 2016-10-24T02:18:15Z nilof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T02:18:28Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:18:49Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T02:20:04Z loke joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:24:26Z eli joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:29:15Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:30:53Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-24T02:32:38Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:35:00Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T02:35:22Z regain joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:38:10Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-24T02:48:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:48:46Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T02:48:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: phoe: Isn't there an issue for that already? 2016-10-24T02:50:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: phoe: Look at issue 51 2016-10-24T02:50:59Z pillton: That is weird. 2016-10-24T02:51:10Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:52:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: Wait no, I'm thinking of something else. 2016-10-24T02:54:59Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-24T02:57:16Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-24T02:59:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T03:01:05Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-24T03:05:50Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-10-24T03:05:54Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:06:15Z phoe: Petit_Dejeuner: oh, um 2016-10-24T03:06:19Z phoe: I don't know 2016-10-24T03:06:25Z phoe: it's 5 AM 2016-10-24T03:06:39Z phoe: minion: remind me in 24 hours: that hunchentoot/clack issue 2016-10-24T03:06:40Z minion: you speak nonsense 2016-10-24T03:06:48Z phoe: ... 2016-10-24T03:06:55Z phoe: #lisp, help me 2016-10-24T03:07:04Z cromachina: did u try sticky notes? 2016-10-24T03:07:21Z phoe: cromachina: yes, I end up losing them 2016-10-24T03:07:33Z Bike: "minion: memo for phoe: speak wetly" and then don't talk 2016-10-24T03:07:46Z Bike: i don't think it does time 2016-10-24T03:07:54Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:08:47Z phoe: minion: memo for phoe: that hunchentoot/clack issue 2016-10-24T03:08:47Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe when he/she/it next speaks. 2016-10-24T03:08:47Z minion: phoe, memo from phoe: that hunchentoot/clack issue 2016-10-24T03:08:50Z phoe: ......... 2016-10-24T03:08:54Z phoe: okay, goodnight #lisp 2016-10-24T03:08:59Z phoe: Bike: if you could memo it for me 2016-10-24T03:09:08Z Bike: ok. 2016-10-24T03:09:36Z phoe: testing 2016-10-24T03:16:47Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:17:00Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:18:22Z tilpner: Hi. Can I use asdf:operate to build a single fasl file that contains all systems I depend on? 2016-10-24T03:18:33Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T03:19:35Z phoe: 2016-10-24T03:19:39Z phoe: the fuck, CL-WHO 2016-10-24T03:19:48Z phoe couldn't stop himself 2016-10-24T03:20:11Z tilpner: I don't really know how most of this works. I have a system that works when ql:quickloaded, and now I want to execute that on my server. Since I don't want the 70MB+ binary, the fasl file seems better suited 2016-10-24T03:20:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:21:26Z Bike: i think that is what the bundle-op is for, tilpner, but i don't know it myself. 2016-10-24T03:23:02Z tilpner: I've so far tried using monolithic-compile-bundle-op, monolithic-deliver-asd-op, and program-op. The last one is undefined, and the first two don't quite seem to work yet (for me) 2016-10-24T03:23:56Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T03:24:11Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:24:23Z Bike: what implementation are you using? 2016-10-24T03:26:02Z tilpner: I'm using sbcl. Executing the result of monolithic-compile-bundle-op prints Error finding package for symbol "%ROTATE-BYTE" The name "SB-ROTATE-BYTE" does not designate any package. 2016-10-24T03:26:52Z tilpner: (I'll add that to the depends) 2016-10-24T03:26:52Z Bike: odd. guess you need to depend on the sb-rotate-byte contrib too. 2016-10-24T03:27:13Z Bike: anyway i was thinking that, on sbcl, i think that you can just concatenate fasls together. 2016-10-24T03:33:17Z tilpner: Hmm, I added :sb-rotate-byte to the :depends-on in my asd file, but it doesn't change. Do I need to add more? 2016-10-24T03:33:51Z loke: tilpner: The depends-on expects system names. :sb-rotate-byte is not a system name. 2016-10-24T03:34:15Z Bike: isn't it? 2016-10-24T03:34:32Z Bike: (asdf:find-system :sb-rotate-byte) => # 2016-10-24T03:34:48Z loke: Bike: Hmm... OK, that was unexpected. 2016-10-24T03:34:53Z tilpner: I found https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/contrib/sb-rotate-byte/sb-rotate-byte.asd , so I assumed it was 2016-10-24T03:35:03Z Bike: i mean, it's an sbcl contrib and not in quicklisp, naturally. 2016-10-24T03:35:06Z loke: tilpner: You are correct. 2016-10-24T03:35:36Z loke: tilpner: Anyway, you need to use SB-ROTATE-BYTE:ROTATE-BYTE 2016-10-24T03:35:52Z loke: (and now I see that's what you did) 2016-10-24T03:36:10Z loke: I should stop trying to do many things at the same time. 2016-10-24T03:36:18Z tilpner: loke - What do you mean by "use"? I don't call that function directly anywhere. 2016-10-24T03:36:37Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:36:41Z tilpner: In fact, I commented out all interesting code, this is practically a Hello World 2016-10-24T03:36:46Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T03:36:59Z loke: tilpner: What does your code look like? 2016-10-24T03:37:14Z tilpner: (Not quite, it's the ningle server hello world) 2016-10-24T03:37:35Z loke: tilpner: So some library you depend on uses it? 2016-10-24T03:37:51Z tilpner: The code is just https://ptpb.pw/sc2s.lisp 2016-10-24T03:39:05Z Rampages joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:39:09Z tilpner: The system definition is at https://ptpb.pw/Gj3F.asd , but I just used most of the example here too, it's probably wrong 2016-10-24T03:39:10Z loke: tilpner: Did you compile your own SBCL? 2016-10-24T03:39:23Z tilpner: Huh, now that you mention it, maybe. Let me check 2016-10-24T03:39:38Z scottj joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:39:44Z loke: tilpner: When compiling it remember to use --fancy. Otherwise there are some contribs you're not getting. SB-ROTATE-BYTE might be one of those. 2016-10-24T03:40:11Z Bike: i had the impression that the system works on sbcl normally, just not when bundled. 2016-10-24T03:40:50Z ASau` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T03:40:55Z loke: Bike: Well, I know there are some things that aren't built if you don't use --fancy. 2016-10-24T03:41:43Z tilpner: No, I had a self-compiled version installed too, but it wasn't used. I deleted it now 2016-10-24T03:41:59Z loke: tilpner: You should always use a self-compiled version. 2016-10-24T03:42:07Z tilpner: Oh, why is that? 2016-10-24T03:43:17Z loke: tilpner: Because the package systems always gives you outdated versions, versions wiithout multithreading, versions not compiled with --fancy and whatnot. Also, it sometimes doesn't come with source, making M-. navigation to the SBCL implementation impossible. 2016-10-24T03:43:17Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T03:43:28Z loke: Better just do it yourself, and do it right :-) 2016-10-24T03:45:07Z tessier_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-24T03:45:40Z tilpner: Okay, compiling again :) 2016-10-24T03:46:42Z tessier joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:47:15Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:53:00Z al-damiri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T03:56:22Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-24T03:59:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T03:59:51Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-24T04:04:02Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-24T04:07:48Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-24T04:10:44Z al-damiri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T04:13:00Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T04:13:43Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-24T04:16:15Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T04:18:05Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-24T04:24:21Z omilu joined #lisp 2016-10-24T04:31:00Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-24T04:34:18Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T04:37:13Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T04:43:45Z hatfolk joined #lisp 2016-10-24T04:44:30Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T04:47:59Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-24T04:49:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-24T04:50:28Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T04:50:31Z ASau`` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T04:50:43Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T04:53:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-24T04:56:56Z xorox90 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T04:57:41Z tilpner: This did not help. :( 2016-10-24T04:59:04Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T05:07:01Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T05:08:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-24T05:08:25Z jack_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T05:09:46Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2016-10-24T08:38:17Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-24T08:38:35Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-24T08:39:06Z NERV-X27 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T08:39:07Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-24T08:39:10Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-24T08:39:40Z ferada_ is now known as ferada 2016-10-24T08:40:34Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T08:42:03Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-24T08:42:14Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T08:42:57Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T08:43:55Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T08:45:44Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T08:47:28Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T08:48:25Z nikki93 quit 2016-10-24T08:49:26Z loke: flip214 and _death: My StumpWM is not notifying me whenever dbus notifications happens. 2016-10-24T08:49:38Z loke: Once I got it working, it was remarkably little code. 2016-10-24T08:49:48Z loke: I'm now working on getting a nicer UI, using CLIM. 2016-10-24T08:52:21Z 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2016-10-24T09:00:07Z flip214: which will be(come) upstream 2016-10-24T09:00:14Z flip214: so I guess you need to fix a few lines 2016-10-24T09:00:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:00:24Z loke: Is it similar to your API? 2016-10-24T09:00:24Z johs joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:00:25Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:00:29Z ovenpasta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T09:00:46Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:01:08Z _death: I thought about maybe adding introspection support today 2016-10-24T09:01:28Z flip214: loke: 2016-10-24T09:01:29Z flip214: (define-dbus-method (my-service my-method) ((s1 :string) (s2 :string)) (:string) 2016-10-24T09:01:39Z flip214: looks a bit nicer even 2016-10-24T09:01:52Z flip214: there's examples/publish.lisp 2016-10-24T09:01:57Z flip214: which should answer most questions anyway 2016-10-24T09:02:40Z H4ns` is now known as H4ns 2016-10-24T09:03:20Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T09:03:26Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 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I'll take a look. Thanks. 2016-10-24T09:04:11Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:06:24Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T09:06:40Z scottj left #lisp 2016-10-24T09:07:38Z djh: Is common lisp suited to write small CLI tools in? If so, what's the best way? So far I've done everything via the REPL.. 2016-10-24T09:08:26Z jackdaniel: djh: there is cl-launch for scripting. If you want full-featured CLI tools, look at Command Line Option Nuker (CLON) 2016-10-24T09:08:32Z _death: djh: I do most of my stuff via the REPL as well.. but it's easy to have a script so you can use it via CLI as well 2016-10-24T09:08:47Z jackdaniel: I'm writing a tutorial covering clon, it will be ready in a few days 2016-10-24T09:09:09Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-24T09:09:21Z djh: jackdaniel: awesome, where do I watch to know when you've finished? :) 2016-10-24T09:09:23Z _death: djh: #!/path/to/sbcl --script works 2016-10-24T09:09:25Z jackdaniel: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php (documentation is in English, very well written) 2016-10-24T09:09:33Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-24T09:09:40Z djh: Much obliged! 2016-10-24T09:09:42Z jackdaniel: djh: it will be published in ecl-quarterly, and on Planet Lisp 2016-10-24T09:09:57Z jackdaniel: it is the last piece before publication (it will cover McCLIM as well) 2016-10-24T09:10:02Z jackdaniel: for gui that is 2016-10-24T09:10:10Z djh: don't know ecl-quarterly, but I should pick it up via PL, Thanks 2016-10-24T09:11:29Z Rampages joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:12:29Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:13:40Z otjura joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:16:06Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:17:28Z otjura quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-24T09:20:00Z otjura joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:21:18Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-24T09:31:54Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-24T09:33:26Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-24T09:33:43Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:34:07Z marusich quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T09:34:47Z beaky: hello 2016-10-24T09:36:07Z beaky: can production common lisp webapp images also be attached to and debugged with SLIME and stuff? 2016-10-24T09:37:06Z flip214: if swank is included in the image, of course 2016-10-24T09:37:06Z jackdaniel: yes, but exposing swank server is insecure, you need to think it through 2016-10-24T09:37:09Z beaky: ah 2016-10-24T09:37:31Z beaky: yes thats seems to be a big challenge to that kind of thing 2016-10-24T09:37:36Z flip214: jackdaniel: well, running it on 127.0.0.1 you might have bigger problems then already, no? 2016-10-24T09:37:55Z beaky: lol 2016-10-24T09:38:09Z flip214: having it on a unix socket that's in a 0700 directory should be "good enough"... I hope that's possible, too 2016-10-24T09:38:49Z H4ns: if you think that security is about whether you can reach slime through 127.0.0.1, you need to think better anyway. 2016-10-24T09:41:00Z flamebeard_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:42:27Z H4ns: i find it rather annoying that nowadays, many viable ideas are brought down because "insecure!1!!". as if not doing it that way would have any positive effect on "security". i mean, if "security" was the primary advice to make, the first thing to tell people is to not use linux because it is written in C 2016-10-24T09:42:27Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-24T09:44:40Z flamebeard_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-24T09:45:27Z cebreidian quit (Quit: (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by them)))) 2016-10-24T09:46:53Z raydeejay: security-oriented programming, lesson 1: destroy your computer 2016-10-24T09:47:03Z beaky: yes i agree with that sentiment 2016-10-24T09:50:11Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:50:59Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-10-24T09:50:59Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T09:55:11Z Glitchy: H4ns: I don't think it's bringing the idea down as much as informing the (potentially unknowledgeable) reader that they have to take security into account. I'd argue that the current state of the web, and regular hacks, suggests that we don't take security seriously enough. 2016-10-24T09:55:58Z pipping: Not doing it would have a non-zero effect on security which leaves you more secure than with a negative impact. Makes sense to me. 2016-10-24T09:56:05Z flip214: H4ns: well, my point is that having slime on a non-firewalled outside-reachable port won't HELP security ;) 2016-10-24T09:56:06Z emeritusnot quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-24T09:56:09Z pipping: s/non-zero/zero/ 2016-10-24T10:00:57Z pipping wonders if H4ns thinks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Viwwetf0gU was a good idea 2016-10-24T10:02:47Z djh: "If putting a lock on your door is good security, putting TEN locks on the door must be EVEN BETTER security!" :) 2016-10-24T10:02:50Z Grue`: beaky: it's not a big challenge, just use SSH port forwarding to connect to remote swank 2016-10-24T10:04:10Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T10:10:06Z ASau`` is now known as ASau 2016-10-24T10:12:32Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-24T10:20:53Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-24T10:23:36Z Glitchy: flip214: I understood your point. Best option would be to have a VPN and connect via the VPN. 2016-10-24T10:24:13Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-24T10:25:03Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-24T10:27:07Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T10:37:05Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-24T10:37:08Z NERV-X27 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T10:37:33Z leo_song quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T10:42:23Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-24T10:42:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T10:47:13Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-24T10:47:23Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-10-24T10:51:35Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-24T10:52:01Z cebreidian joined #lisp 2016-10-24T10:57:13Z flip214: Glitchy: SSH and port forwarding should be good enough 2016-10-24T10:57:56Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T10:59:24Z titankiller quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-10-24T11:01:38Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-24T11:02:36Z Glitchy: flip214: Sure as long as the SSH is locked down well enough. 2016-10-24T11:05:03Z flip214: IMO having SSH is the best way of accessing a server from remote anyway, so there's no way around of using it. 2016-10-24T11:05:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-24T11:10:34Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T11:10:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-24T11:10:52Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-24T11:13:50Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-24T11:14:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T11:16:28Z LahlStephan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T11:17:44Z StephanLahl joined #lisp 2016-10-24T11:24:01Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-24T11:29:52Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-24T11:31:26Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-24T11:33:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-24T11:34:19Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-24T11:40:58Z NitroWheels quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T11:42:28Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T11:44:51Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T11:45:04Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-24T11:50:07Z alienbot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T11:51:14Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-24T11:52:42Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T11:55:56Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-24T12:00:05Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-24T12:01:56Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T12:03:37Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-24T12:05:20Z neuri8 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T12:09:16Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-24T12:11:34Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-24T12:11:35Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2016-10-24T12:11:35Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-24T12:12:11Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-24T12:12:17Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T12:12:24Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-24T12:12:48Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:16:39Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:16:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:17:58Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T13:18:30Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-24T13:21:19Z yoosi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T13:21:46Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-24T13:21:49Z yoosi joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:21:57Z harish quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-24T13:22:15Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:23:13Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:24:12Z Mandus_ is now known as Mandus 2016-10-24T13:24:38Z beaky: hello 2016-10-24T13:25:07Z beaky: whats happening when (DEFUN ...) and (EVAL '(DEFUN ...)) compile to different things 2016-10-24T13:25:28Z beaky: (assming the DEFUN bit it the same) 2016-10-24T13:28:28Z rpg: beaky: I think some implementations treat top-level and non-top-level DEFUNs differently. I suppose that might be related. But your question is so vague that it's hard to answer. 2016-10-24T13:28:30Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:28:44Z beaky: ah 2016-10-24T13:32:26Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:37:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:38:04Z raydeejay: ircing from a .mil domain? I wonder how much of a good idea that is 2016-10-24T13:38:42Z White_Flame: beaky: you mean the return value is not EQ? 2016-10-24T13:39:30Z beaky: yes 2016-10-24T13:39:33Z White_Flame: the one obvious difference would be that EVAL doesn't see lexical closures 2016-10-24T13:39:39Z White_Flame: what are the two return values then? 2016-10-24T13:39:51Z White_Flame: (geez, all these questions about "It's broken" without saying how :-P) 2016-10-24T13:39:54Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T13:40:22Z raydeejay: heh 2016-10-24T13:41:43Z Grue`: rather than EVALing a DEFUN, consider using COMPILE 2016-10-24T13:41:51Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:42:03Z beaky: yes i get different resulting macroexpansions 2016-10-24T13:42:18Z White_Flame: wait, that's different 2016-10-24T13:42:39Z White_Flame waits for an explanation of what's going on 2016-10-24T13:43:01Z White_Flame: of course, just describing the issue can point out the problem to yourself, sometimes 2016-10-24T13:43:06Z White_Flame: (see "rubber duck debugging") 2016-10-24T13:43:58Z jackdaniel: hmm, it doesn't work 2016-10-24T13:44:03Z jackdaniel: why it doesn't work? 2016-10-24T13:44:07Z jackdaniel: ah, I know, thanks! 2016-10-24T13:44:14Z raydeejay: your welcome 2016-10-24T13:44:16Z raydeejay: 're 2016-10-24T13:44:33Z raydeejay goes back to floating in the bathtub 2016-10-24T13:44:45Z White_Flame: sucks when you're googling for some obscure problem, and there's a post online asking the same questions, with "nevermind, figured it out" WITHOUT EXPLAINING HOW! ;) 2016-10-24T13:44:53Z raydeejay: yay 2016-10-24T13:45:04Z raydeejay: if we had a penny for each of those :D 2016-10-24T13:46:33Z jackdaniel: it's still very useful clue - the problem has a solution 2016-10-24T13:46:41Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:46:49Z JuanDaugherty: if you assess that they in fact found one 2016-10-24T13:49:44Z JuanDaugherty: "figured it out" could mean reconsidered and possibly obviated/discarded the problem 2016-10-24T13:51:16Z NERV-X27 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T13:52:40Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T13:52:52Z jdz: http://xkcd.com/979/ 2016-10-24T13:57:38Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:58:29Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-24T13:58:43Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-24T13:58:46Z beaky: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329427 under sbcl using the :cl-who lib, i have definitions like this in my source that ultimately compiles to the version returning the default XHTML doctype. When i have the "(EVAL '(DEFUN ...)" version in my source when i load it it does return the output with the html5 dtd. Strangely enough on the SLIME repl the straight DEFUN version works just fine 2016-10-24T13:58:54Z razzy89__ quit (Quit: razzy89__) 2016-10-24T13:59:09Z beaky: i guess its because i'm SETFing incorrectly in my source file? 2016-10-24T13:59:20Z beaky: (or loading things incorrectly) 2016-10-24T13:59:55Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:02:14Z dwrngr` is now known as dwrngr 2016-10-24T14:02:51Z colab joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:04:40Z beaky: yes seems i did load my things incorrectly thanks 2016-10-24T14:04:41Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:05:27Z beaky: (had to list my variables dependencies in my .asd) 2016-10-24T14:05:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:06:36Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T14:07:52Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:08:37Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:09:43Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-24T14:16:49Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-24T14:17:29Z NitroWheels quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T14:18:56Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:19:04Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:19:09Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:19:42Z sharkteeth joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:20:58Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:21:29Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-24T14:21:50Z pipping: to generate html, what would I use and why? I found XHTMLambda to have a pleasant syntax but it appears to be incomplete to some extent and no longer maintained. Is using cl-who a good idea or is there a new kid on the block? 2016-10-24T14:22:57Z Grue`: there's cl-markup 2016-10-24T14:23:25Z warweasle: pipping: CL-WHO 2016-10-24T14:23:56Z warweasle: "With HTML Output" 2016-10-24T14:24:05Z beaky: yes i like cl-who's approach of lispy compile-time string generation 2016-10-24T14:24:07Z pipping: Grue`: a ∃ is less than what I was hoping for :P 2016-10-24T14:24:23Z Grue` actually uses closure-templates 2016-10-24T14:25:06Z beaky: at first face seems cl-markup's approach is similar to cl-who's 2016-10-24T14:25:15Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:25:30Z Grue`: cl-markup is a clone of cl-who, but is supposedly faster? 2016-10-24T14:25:41Z warweasle: beaky: I use something similar for cairo/pango for a vector graphics/rich-text markup language in Clinch. 2016-10-24T14:26:03Z warweasle: beaky: But they are available separately with cl-cairo2 and cl-pango. 2016-10-24T14:28:23Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:30:36Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-24T14:32:07Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:33:26Z alienbot quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-10-24T14:33:43Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:34:10Z razzy89__ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:35:00Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:37:21Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-24T14:37:29Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:38:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T14:39:44Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T14:40:36Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T14:40:36Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:40:36Z kobain quit (Changing host) 2016-10-24T14:40:37Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-24T14:41:29Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2016-10-24T16:23:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:24:47Z Guest4542 is now known as CrazEd 2016-10-24T16:25:16Z CrazEd is now known as Guest58359 2016-10-24T16:27:08Z DogLooksGood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T16:28:37Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T16:29:01Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T16:29:41Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-24T16:30:15Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:30:51Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:31:55Z sharkteeth: hi 2016-10-24T16:32:04Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:32:42Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:33:20Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:33:26Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:35:04Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T16:35:04Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2016-10-24T16:35:20Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T16:37:00Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:39:01Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:41:52Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-24T16:49:53Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:50:33Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T16:51:49Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:52:21Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:54:43Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-24T16:55:08Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-24T16:55:08Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:03:33Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:06:09Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T17:07:15Z Glitchy: Hi all 2016-10-24T17:07:40Z Glitchy: Using lisp-unit and trying to test for a condition, I get this: "Should have signalled INVALID-ARGUMENT-CONDITION but saw #" 2016-10-24T17:07:48Z Glitchy: How am I supposed to test this? 2016-10-24T17:08:30Z jwl_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:08:39Z Glitchy: I'm doing (assert-error 'invalid-argument-condition (some-function-that-signals-invalid-argument-condition)) 2016-10-24T17:08:47Z Glitchy: Which seems the same as what's in the doc 2016-10-24T17:09:03Z Glitchy: > (assert-error 'arithmetic-error (foo 0)) 2016-10-24T17:11:26Z Glitchy: Nevermind, I'm stupid :D 2016-10-24T17:11:32Z Glitchy: I really should sleep 2016-10-24T17:11:53Z jwl_: \ 2016-10-24T17:12:46Z jwl_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T17:12:53Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-24T17:12:58Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:16:34Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:17:43Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:21:47Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:23:28Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-24T17:25:02Z DavidGu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T17:25:18Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:25:22Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T17:25:53Z Guest58359 is now known as CrazEd 2016-10-24T17:26:22Z CrazEd is now known as Guest88646 2016-10-24T17:26:32Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-24T17:29:04Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T17:29:37Z alkesandr joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:33:55Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-24T17:34:21Z schjetne_ is now known as schjetne 2016-10-24T17:35:36Z younder joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:38:05Z raydeejay quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T17:39:51Z raydeejay joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:41:42Z rpg_ is now known as rpg 2016-10-24T17:42:33Z rpg: pierpa: did you get your ITERATE issue sorted? 2016-10-24T17:42:56Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T17:47:37Z pierpa: rpg: yes, ty. The problem was that a mistake I made produced a terrible error message: (in 42) ==> > Error: Unbound variable: ITERATE::*BLOCK-NAME* 2016-10-24T17:48:10Z rpg: Is that because it thought you were trying to accumulate a value in a block named 42? 2016-10-24T17:48:36Z ASau` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T17:48:47Z pierpa: no, I misspelled WITH-OPEN-FILE in something like (with-open-file (in foo) ...) 2016-10-24T17:49:11Z pierpa: the weird part is that I got an ITERATE error message from a functon that wasn't even using ITERATE at all! :] 2016-10-24T17:49:55Z pierpa: so, note to myself: ITERATE defines a function ITERATE:IN 2016-10-24T17:50:43Z rpg: You can tell a recursive iteration to do its collection IN an outside block, which can be handy in rare occasions. 2016-10-24T17:50:58Z rpg: My guess is that the code walker went haywire. 2016-10-24T17:51:39Z pierpa: no,no, it's not this 2016-10-24T17:51:41Z binghe joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:51:54Z pierpa: there's actually a function ITERATE:IN 2016-10-24T17:52:07Z pierpa: and I called it by mistake 2016-10-24T17:52:34Z raydeejay_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:52:45Z pierpa: (outside of any ITER, hence no iterate BLOCK found) 2016-10-24T17:53:17Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2016-10-24T17:53:17Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2016-10-24T17:55:56Z raydeejay left #lisp 2016-10-24T17:56:23Z raydeejay_ is now known as raydeejay 2016-10-24T17:58:25Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T17:58:29Z kamog joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:01:06Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-24T18:01:19Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T18:01:31Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:04:56Z rpg: pierpa: I had no idea... 2016-10-24T18:06:04Z SpaceDanceCJ quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-24T18:06:59Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:08:01Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-24T18:08:14Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T18:10:48Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:11:43Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:14:07Z josteink joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:14:30Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:15:28Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:17:32Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-10-24T18:19:07Z sukaeto: pipping: re: generating HTML docs with LISP, I've had good luck with both https://mmontone.github.io/djula/ and https://github.com/kanru/cl-mustache 2016-10-24T18:21:03Z sukaeto: to add my 2 cents: Djula is a "better" language. You can do pretty much with it, it's very similar to Python's Jinja. cl-mustache is good in situations where you're using a library which understands Mustache on the frontend (such as ractive.js), so you can share templates between the backend and frontend (or even just confuse your UX people less with fewer templating langs) 2016-10-24T18:21:33Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T18:24:27Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:26:37Z jasom: pipping: +1 for cl-who for me; djula, cl-mustache, and 3bmd are all more traditional templating languages, but I prefer cl-who's way of doing things 2016-10-24T18:26:43Z Guest88646 is now known as CrazEd 2016-10-24T18:27:12Z CrazEd is now known as Guest2028 2016-10-24T18:29:44Z raydeejay: markdown really only covers a subset 2016-10-24T18:35:57Z PuercoPop: spinneret is a html5 only cl-who that works with ps and can render markdown strings inside the templates 2016-10-24T18:36:57Z TruePika: meh, I'm having a brainfart 2016-10-24T18:36:58Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T18:37:13Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:37:24Z TruePika: how do I go about exporting the exported symbols from :foo from :bar 2016-10-24T18:37:49Z TruePika: as in, symbols are defined in package :foo, but I want to be able to access them as e.g. bar:my-symbol 2016-10-24T18:38:12Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:38:20Z rpg: TruePika: Import them into BAR and then export them from BAR 2016-10-24T18:38:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T18:38:44Z TruePika: rpg: Obviously, but I want small code which does that automatically 2016-10-24T18:38:48Z pjb: or just use foo in bar. 2016-10-24T18:38:57Z pjb: (in-package :bar) (use-package :foo) 2016-10-24T18:39:06Z TruePika: pjb: does that automatically export them out of :bar though? 2016-10-24T18:39:08Z frodef joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:39:16Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:39:17Z pjb: TruePika: no. 2016-10-24T18:39:30Z TruePika: well, that's my goal right now 2016-10-24T18:39:34Z jasom: raydeejay: oh s/3bmd/cl-emb 2016-10-24T18:39:40Z pjb: You can use conducts for that. 2016-10-24T18:39:48Z raydeejay: ah lol 2016-10-24T18:39:52Z jasom: raydeejay: that was a brain-fart 2016-10-24T18:40:08Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T18:40:50Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T18:41:19Z pjb: or the system: cl-reexport 2016-10-24T18:42:55Z TruePika: pjb: thanks, looking at cl-reexport right now 2016-10-24T18:48:11Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2016-10-24T18:48:27Z jostein joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:48:32Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T18:49:37Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:49:43Z des_cons1lado is now known as des_consolado 2016-10-24T18:51:23Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:51:50Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds) 2016-10-24T18:52:21Z brkr joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:52:46Z NitroWheels quit (Quit: Quitting: 6502 is calling me) 2016-10-24T18:53:22Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:53:39Z Colleen quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2016-10-24T18:53:39Z Colleen_ is now known as Colleen 2016-10-24T18:54:13Z gnh joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:54:57Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:55:44Z klltkr: Baggers! 2016-10-24T18:56:06Z Baggers: klltkr: evening sir! how goes? 2016-10-24T18:56:07Z klltkr: Just the man I'm looking for 2016-10-24T18:56:16Z klltkr: I'm nae too shabby 2016-10-24T18:56:21Z klltkr: How are you? 2016-10-24T18:56:37Z Baggers: doing pretty good thanks 2016-10-24T18:56:43Z gnh: Alright chaps 2016-10-24T18:57:25Z Baggers: gnh: allo 2016-10-24T18:57:47Z Baggers: klltkr: something cepl related messing about? 2016-10-24T18:58:08Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2016-10-24T18:58:20Z klltkr: Here's a question: I've been rendering into the default framebuffer using WITH-BLENDING, supplying blending parameters made with MAKE-BLENDING-PARAMS. Now I'm trying to render into a non-default framebuffer and trying to do that with blending parameters. 2016-10-24T18:58:23Z klltkr: How do I do that? 2016-10-24T18:59:21Z Baggers: (cepl:attachment-blending fbo attachment-id) :) 2016-10-24T18:59:24Z Baggers: setf to set it 2016-10-24T19:00:11Z Baggers: if you C-d C-d on attachment-blending you should see some further details 2016-10-24T19:00:28Z raydeejay: f 2016-10-24T19:01:00Z Baggers: klltkr: or see here http://techsnuffle.com/cepl/api.html#CEPL.FBOS:ATTACHMENT-BLENDING 2016-10-24T19:01:08Z Baggers: raydeejay: indeed 2016-10-24T19:01:15Z raydeejay: actually, if you C-d C-d you will delete two characters 2016-10-24T19:01:16Z raydeejay: xD 2016-10-24T19:01:37Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T19:01:55Z Baggers: raydeejay: oh arse :D 2016-10-24T19:03:04Z Baggers: C-c C-d C-d..that one 2016-10-24T19:03:21Z TruePika: pjb: and now I'm getting compile errors when I rebuild the system with (ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM ... :FORCE T) 2016-10-24T19:03:39Z TruePika: UIOP/LISP-BUILD:COMPILE-FILE-ERROR 2016-10-24T19:04:14Z TruePika: which is almost certainly related to the REEXPORT-FROM 2016-10-24T19:04:26Z Baggers: I have a function that is invoked from runtime code and from a macro. The function can raise an error with a restart (use-value). At runtime the debugger is invoked and I can use the restart. At macroexpansion time the error is raised but the the debugger isnt invoked. If I use handler-case in the macro and invoke-debugger the restart isnt available. Is there a way to handle restarts that are raised in code called b 2016-10-24T19:04:26Z Baggers: y macros? 2016-10-24T19:05:17Z TruePika: "the debugger isnt invoked" So compiliation fails? 2016-10-24T19:06:07Z Baggers: TruePika: yes 2016-10-24T19:06:28Z TruePika: where is the restart defined? In the macro? 2016-10-24T19:06:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:06:39Z TruePika: or wait, no, in the function 2016-10-24T19:07:09Z TruePika: what impl? 2016-10-24T19:07:14Z Baggers: no, in the function that can raise the error. sbcl 2016-10-24T19:07:42Z pjb: TruePika: this is so you can exercise your debugging skills. 2016-10-24T19:07:44Z rocx joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:08:07Z jack_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:08:11Z jack_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-24T19:08:14Z TruePika: pjb: oh joy 2016-10-24T19:08:28Z joga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T19:09:05Z __SiCC__ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-24T19:09:06Z TruePika: Baggers: are other restarts defined in the function visible? (Ignore USE-VALUE for now) 2016-10-24T19:09:13Z SiCC joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:09:39Z klltkr: Baggers: I don't totally understand the attachment-id 2016-10-24T19:09:43Z Baggers: TruePika: I expect I'm explaining myself pooly, I'll just make a gist. brb 2016-10-24T19:10:00Z klltkr: And by "don't totally understand" I mean "don't understand at all" 2016-10-24T19:10:07Z klltkr: :) 2016-10-24T19:10:27Z Arathnim: Anyone know why asdf chokes on any code that uses a macro that calls a function, all defined in the same asdf system? It works fine if the code is loaded normally, but an asdf system of only that file won't compile. 2016-10-24T19:10:28Z TruePika: Baggers: No, I understand the problem, I'm trying to isolate if restarts are just being ignored 2016-10-24T19:11:03Z klltkr: Is the attachement id the number that 0: (cepl:make-fbo '(0 ...)) ? 2016-10-24T19:11:17Z TruePika: Arathnim: was the function compiled by the time the macro runs? 2016-10-24T19:11:27Z rpg: Arathnim: Are you sure that the macro is appropriately defined before it is used? Macros can't be forward-referenced, unlike functions. 2016-10-24T19:11:58Z rpg: Arathnim: Also, "won't compile" is not a helpful description of the error. Pls be more specific.... 2016-10-24T19:12:12Z Baggers: TruePika: https://gist.github.com/cbaggers/3b052d79cc42d5502f8f28839bf00826 2016-10-24T19:12:51Z Baggers: TruePika: oh ok. No find-restart in the macro doesnt find the 'use-value restart 2016-10-24T19:13:12Z Baggers: oh sorry, no, no other restarts 2016-10-24T19:13:13Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:13:29Z gnh: Chaps, weird question but does anyone know why Hemlock.qt fails to build in sbcl on osx? 2016-10-24T19:13:37Z rocx: is there a better way to deal with loading package dependencies than loading the file that package is define in, then defining the package based on that? 2016-10-24T19:13:46Z Arathnim: The function the macro depended on was above the macro, first thing in the file. http://sprunge.us/SRRA 2016-10-24T19:13:52Z Baggers: klltkr: will be right with ya :) 2016-10-24T19:13:58Z klltkr: No worries :) 2016-10-24T19:15:38Z joga joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:15:42Z Arathnim: Does the function have to be compiled in a different file or system before a macro can call it? 2016-10-24T19:16:49Z TruePika: Baggers: Doesn't USE-VALUE traditionally take an argument? 2016-10-24T19:17:45Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T19:18:46Z TruePika: yeah, and besides that, "No restart MY-USE-VALUE is active." 2016-10-24T19:19:04Z Xach_: rocx: are you using "package" to mean two different packages in that sentence? 2016-10-24T19:19:18Z Baggers: TruePika: I'm not sure of the standard practice, sorry. Happy to read anything on the subject though 2016-10-24T19:19:21Z TruePika: though that might be an error on my part 2016-10-24T19:20:02Z rocx: Xach_: yeah. 2016-10-24T19:20:25Z bitch is now known as |||||||||||||||| 2016-10-24T19:20:41Z TruePika: Baggers: When I wrap the (let) in the defmacro with a handler-bind, no problem 2016-10-24T19:20:41Z Xach_: rocx: that is the normal way to do it - load the prerequisites, then define your own thing. 2016-10-24T19:20:45Z rocx: like pkg1 plus code in one file, pk2 plus code in another, pk2 wants to import code from pkg1. easy enough with defpackage's :import-from. 2016-10-24T19:20:49Z TruePika: (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (invoke-restart 'use-value)))) 2016-10-24T19:20:54Z rocx: Xach_: ah. 2016-10-24T19:21:13Z rocx: i've heard of another way: to put all package definitions in a separate file, then in-package in their respective files. 2016-10-24T19:21:13Z titankiller quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T19:21:14Z TruePika: (test) -> (1 2 3) 2016-10-24T19:21:48Z enfors joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:21:48Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:21:55Z Baggers: TruePika: cool. thanks. I don't really understand why there is that difference but I bet it is in the spec somewhere 2016-10-24T19:22:01Z joga quit (Changing host) 2016-10-24T19:22:01Z joga joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:22:15Z TruePika: Baggers: check the gist comments for my defmacro 2016-10-24T19:22:16Z Arathnim: rpg: The function in question is defined before the macro, and it errors with "The function common-lisp-user::foo is undefined.", in the macro under that definition. 2016-10-24T19:22:23Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:22:34Z titankiller joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:22:48Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T19:22:55Z younder: wrong package? 2016-10-24T19:23:02Z Baggers: TruePika: thanks, I'll go with this for now then :) 2016-10-24T19:23:50Z TruePika: were you just binding the error without the lambda? 2016-10-24T19:24:18Z younder: Well i seem to remeber is it is not exported from a package you need :: instead of : 2016-10-24T19:24:21Z TruePika: since I tried that naively, it doesn't work since it needs a function ref 2016-10-24T19:24:55Z TruePika: Arathnim: If I'm not mistaken, macros are expanded before functions are compiled 2016-10-24T19:24:58Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:25:09Z younder: well sorry for butting in then 2016-10-24T19:25:17Z rpg: Arathnim: That smells like your macro is INVOKING the function at compile time, rather than simply expanding to an invocation that will happen at runtime. 2016-10-24T19:25:24Z Arathnim: younder: I did everything in cl-user, but I get the same error if everything is in another package as well. 2016-10-24T19:25:34Z rpg: I think we've gone about as far as we can without you sharing the code. 2016-10-24T19:25:42Z TruePika: What rpg said. 2016-10-24T19:25:47Z Arathnim: rpg: I did. http://sprunge.us/SRRA 2016-10-24T19:25:59Z |||||||||||||||| is now known as bitch 2016-10-24T19:26:08Z TruePika: (foo) isn't compiled when the macro is expanded 2016-10-24T19:26:21Z Arathnim: TruePika: That's what I was afraid of. Does it have to be in another file or system? 2016-10-24T19:26:22Z rpg: Arathnim: Yes, you are *calling* FOO in the macro, instead of expanding to a call to foo 2016-10-24T19:26:42Z younder: Arathnim, expliitly impotring perhaps? Importing everything from a package is asking for clashes 2016-10-24T19:26:47Z rpg: Arathnim: You can wrap the def of FOO in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) 2016-10-24T19:27:01Z TruePika: ,(foo) -> call #'FOO during macro expansion time 2016-10-24T19:27:17Z TruePika: might you want to omit the comma there? 2016-10-24T19:27:19Z Arathnim: rpg: Thank you, that's what I was looking for. 2016-10-24T19:27:37Z TruePika: or what rpg said, again 2016-10-24T19:27:44Z ggole_ quit 2016-10-24T19:27:59Z Arathnim: TruePika: I'm writing large macros, and I need to use functions in the macro during-expansion time. 2016-10-24T19:28:03Z TruePika: rpg: :load-toplevel is before or during macroexpansion? 2016-10-24T19:28:15Z rpg: TruePika: After, I believe. 2016-10-24T19:28:15Z TruePika: or wait >_< 2016-10-24T19:28:20Z TruePika: :compile-toplevel 2016-10-24T19:28:40Z TruePika really should study eval-when at some point 2016-10-24T19:28:47Z rpg: TruePika: You probably want to make sure FOO is also available at runtime. 2016-10-24T19:29:18Z TruePika: well, that depends on the use case, methinks 2016-10-24T19:29:31Z TruePika: I'd probably let it exist, though 2016-10-24T19:29:38Z TruePika: better safe than sorry 2016-10-24T19:29:52Z rpg: Arathnim: getting EVAL-WHEN properly handled is probably more complicated than just splitting your code into 2 files and bumping all the functions you need at macro-expansion time upstream of the macros. 2016-10-24T19:30:10Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:30:17Z JoshYoshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T19:30:44Z TruePika: yeah, my issue isn't going anywhere 2016-10-24T19:31:14Z Arathnim: Difficult, some are mutually recursive. 2016-10-24T19:31:18Z TruePika: compiliation is _technically_ successful, but UIOP/LISP-BUILD:CHECK-LISP-COMPILE-RESULTS throws the error anyway 2016-10-24T19:31:54Z TruePika: closest thing to an issue during compile is a warning that additional symbols are exported 2016-10-24T19:32:10Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-24T19:33:02Z TruePika throws together a quick gist 2016-10-24T19:33:43Z klltkr: CEPL is so awesome 2016-10-24T19:35:27Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-24T19:40:06Z rpg: Arathnim: The functions being mutually recursive is not a problem. 2016-10-24T19:40:30Z rpg: But if you are making a mutually-recursive snarl between the functions and the macros, with all due respect, it's time for a redesign. 2016-10-24T19:41:54Z TruePika: https://gist.github.com/TruePikachu/5f7e4f0cf1f3ac008ed0f88c82826383 2016-10-24T19:42:02Z TruePika: that demonstrates the problem I'm having 2016-10-24T19:42:05Z rpg: I wouldn't combine "build a term" with "print a term" the way BAR does, either. You'll be a lot happier if you separate the building (so that you can test it) from the printing. 2016-10-24T19:42:10Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:42:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-10-24T19:42:10Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2016-10-24T19:42:10Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:42:49Z Arathnim: That was just example code I made to reproduce the problem. It would be a lot harder to explain with the actual project. 2016-10-24T19:43:27Z attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 2016-10-24T19:44:28Z easye-ipad_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:44:47Z TruePika: I think the main problem is that I don't understand the function throwing the error 2016-10-24T19:45:44Z TruePika: maybe it's because :baz isn't in :reexport-gist's export list as specified in the defpackage 2016-10-24T19:46:20Z TruePika: If that's the problem, I don't know the best way to automate this 2016-10-24T19:47:34Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-24T19:48:03Z nikodem joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:48:25Z easye-ipad_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-24T19:48:39Z TruePika: though it doesn't error out on the first attempt, only later ones 2016-10-24T19:48:49Z TruePika: (as in, no problem if the system is being loaded for the first time) 2016-10-24T19:49:37Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:53:46Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2016-10-24T19:56:52Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T19:56:57Z TruePika: and now I'm having the slight issue that my save hooks are getting added to on every rebuild 2016-10-24T19:57:34Z TruePika: but that's more a design problem than anything else 2016-10-24T19:58:27Z pipping: sukaeto, jasom, PuercoPop: thanks! 2016-10-24T19:59:04Z Arathnim: rpg: I think you're right. It's not worth the added complexity of having to manage evaluation like that. 2016-10-24T20:00:39Z Arathnim: Thanks for the help. 2016-10-24T20:02:52Z TruePika: yeah, my attempted fix to the compile problem doesn't actually work 2016-10-24T20:04:01Z rpg: Arathnim: Every EVAL-WHEN is something you have to think about when you read the code, but just getting the functions loaded at the right time is conceptually easy, and doesn't make the code hard to read. 2016-10-24T20:04:35Z TruePika: compile "fails" whenever SBCL issues the warning 2016-10-24T20:04:43Z shrdlu68: How do I encode/decode to/from these charsets using babel? http://www.obj-sys.com/asn1tutorial/node128.html 2016-10-24T20:05:08Z TruePika: as in e.g. sb-ext:*on-package-variance* 2016-10-24T20:05:21Z TruePika: whenever the related warning from there is issued 2016-10-24T20:06:52Z enfors` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:07:25Z NeverDie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T20:08:14Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:08:32Z enfors quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T20:08:38Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:10:04Z TruePika: okay, threw together a hack which appears to work for now 2016-10-24T20:10:07Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:10:34Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T20:10:47Z jasom: pipping: also note that I ment cl-emb not 3bmd 2016-10-24T20:10:54Z jasom: pipping: the former is a templater the latter is markdown 2016-10-24T20:11:20Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:11:44Z thomas1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-24T20:11:56Z thomas1 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:12:07Z thomas1 is now known as thomas 2016-10-24T20:12:08Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-24T20:13:26Z TruePika: hopefully I only need to mess with save hooks in this one place (DB connection related) 2016-10-24T20:13:46Z TruePika: since I can't figure out a nice way to make it a macro without possibly breaking 2016-10-24T20:15:10Z jasom: shrdlu68: are the bytes in memory or in a file? 2016-10-24T20:15:23Z TruePika: the main problem is that I don't want to run the hook multiple times 2016-10-24T20:15:37Z TruePika: or even have it in sb-ext:*save-hooks* multiple times 2016-10-24T20:16:03Z TruePika: but when I recompile, technically my function SAVE-HOOK is different to what it was before 2016-10-24T20:16:14Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:16:30Z shrdlu68: jasom: In memory. 2016-10-24T20:16:38Z TruePika: so I want to figure out how to somehow remove the old SAVE-HOOK from SB-EXT:*SAVE-HOOKS* and replace it with the newly-compiled one 2016-10-24T20:17:12Z TruePika: and get this all accomplished in a macro, preferrably; (define-save-hook ...) 2016-10-24T20:18:42Z TruePika: hmm, maybe a special with the old hook... 2016-10-24T20:19:37Z TruePika: no, probably won't work as well as I'd like, since the macro would either lose the context if I use GENSYM, or only work once globally if I hardcode the name 2016-10-24T20:19:49Z TruePika: any ideas? 2016-10-24T20:20:21Z jasom: shrdlu68: (babel:octets-to-string (COERCE #(65) '(SIMPLE-ARRAY (unsigned-byte 8) (*))) :encoding :ascii) 2016-10-24T20:20:34Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T20:20:56Z jasom: shrdlu68: note that bable *requires* that your upgraded-array-element-type be of unsigned-byte 8, not just that you have an array that contains only values 255 or less 2016-10-24T20:22:42Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:22:47Z TruePika: hm, _theoretically_ a single package should only be defining a single save hook 2016-10-24T20:22:54Z TruePika: (through this mechanism) 2016-10-24T20:23:11Z TruePika: (especially since I'm DEFUNning SAVE-HOOK with it) 2016-10-24T20:23:24Z TruePika: I'll just check for the existance of #'SAVE-HOOK 2016-10-24T20:23:33Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T20:23:36Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:23:45Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-24T20:24:01Z TruePika: ...except how do I check if a function exists without causing an error? 2016-10-24T20:24:01Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2016-10-24T20:24:02Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-24T20:24:11Z jasom doesn't know why babel dosn't have something like: (deftype octet-vector (&optional (length '*)) `(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (,length))) 2016-10-24T20:25:09Z TMA: TruePika: (symbol-function 'SAVE-HOOK) 2016-10-24T20:25:35Z TruePika: TMA: Already tried that, The function COMMON-LISP-USER::FADFADS is undefined. 2016-10-24T20:25:36Z _death: clhs fbounp 2016-10-24T20:25:36Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for fbounp. 2016-10-24T20:25:37Z _death: clhs fboundp 2016-10-24T20:25:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fbound.htm 2016-10-24T20:25:43Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:25:57Z TruePika: _death: ofc duh 2016-10-24T20:26:03Z TruePika keeps brainfarting 2016-10-24T20:26:10Z TMA: TruePika: and catch the error :) 2016-10-24T20:26:51Z TMA: TruePika: (fboundp 'save-hook) then 2016-10-24T20:26:59Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-24T20:30:47Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2016-10-24T20:31:17Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:31:19Z TruePika: See any major problems in https://gist.github.com/TruePikachu/c5c958df33a207d419d60c2c1907547f ? 2016-10-24T20:31:36Z TruePika: ...err 2016-10-24T20:32:00Z pjb: TruePika: when you make changes to packages and recompile/reload files containing the changed definitions, it's bound to give (usually restartable) errors about symbols. 2016-10-24T20:32:02Z TruePika: okay, ignore the "...err" 2016-10-24T20:32:43Z TruePika: pjb: is that about define-save-hook or the whole exports mess? 2016-10-24T20:32:55Z pjb: for the export mess. 2016-10-24T20:33:35Z TruePika: well, I think I cleaned it up for now by using make-package instead of defpackage, and deleting it beforehand if it did exist 2016-10-24T20:33:40Z pjb: (sorry for the delay, I had the laundry to do). 2016-10-24T20:33:52Z pjb: TruePika: as a true lisper would do! :-) 2016-10-24T20:34:10Z pjb: Indeed, using delete-package and make-package will be conforming. 2016-10-24T20:34:34Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-24T20:34:58Z pjb: TruePika: there's another way: use #. in the defpackage form. 2016-10-24T20:35:18Z TruePika: oh, to make the export list? 2016-10-24T20:35:25Z pjb: Yes. 2016-10-24T20:35:43Z TruePika: that _might_ be slightly safer, actually 2016-10-24T20:35:57Z pjb: (defpackage :bar (:use :cl :foo) (:export . #.(let (n) (do-external-symbols (s :foo n) (push (symbol-name s) n))))) 2016-10-24T20:36:40Z TruePika: definately more understandable than my code 2016-10-24T20:37:06Z jasom: TruePika: (push (lambda () (funcall 'foo::bar)) *sb-ext:save-hooks*) 2016-10-24T20:37:08Z nhoJ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:37:18Z jasom: TruePika: then when foo::bar is redefined, the function called will change 2016-10-24T20:37:26Z TruePika: jasom: How do I ensure that is pushed only once, though? 2016-10-24T20:37:44Z TruePika: even with recompiles in an active system 2016-10-24T20:37:50Z jasom: hmm 2016-10-24T20:38:04Z pjb: this is hard because the function may be eq or eql, but probably not equal or equalp. 2016-10-24T20:38:05Z TruePika: especially since the lambda will also recompile, and not be eql 2016-10-24T20:38:17Z phoe_: hey, wait, why? 2016-10-24T20:38:18Z pjb: So you could use named functions instead. 2016-10-24T20:38:18Z jasom: I'm thinking right now 2016-10-24T20:38:26Z phoe_: (defvar *hook* (lambda () (funcall 'foo::bar))) 2016-10-24T20:38:40Z phoe_: (pushnew *hook* sb-ext:*save-hooks*) 2016-10-24T20:38:43Z phoe_: won't that work? 2016-10-24T20:38:55Z pjb: (defun foo-bar-meat () (funcall 'foo::bar)) (pushnew 'foo-bar-meat sb-ext:*save-hooks*) 2016-10-24T20:39:09Z TruePika: assuming I don't get any sort of issue from (defvar *hook* ...), maybe 2016-10-24T20:39:20Z phoe_: why would you get it? 2016-10-24T20:39:21Z pjb: phoe_: not if we redefine *hook*, but otherwise thanks to defvar, yes. 2016-10-24T20:39:24Z jasom: aha 2016-10-24T20:39:33Z jasom: you can just push the symbol and use pushnew 2016-10-24T20:39:34Z phoe_: if it's a DEFVAR, then it won't get recompiled on file recompilation 2016-10-24T20:39:38Z pjb: And usually, you hang meat onto hooks, not hooks onto hooks. 2016-10-24T20:39:40Z phoe_: only once. 2016-10-24T20:39:44Z jasom: (pushnew 'foo::bar sb-ext:*save-hoooks*) 2016-10-24T20:39:55Z jasom: save-hooks will resolve function designators 2016-10-24T20:39:55Z pjb: (incf jasom) 2016-10-24T20:40:06Z jasom: the docs are unclear on that 2016-10-24T20:40:11Z phadthai_ is now known as phadthai 2016-10-24T20:40:15Z jasom: says "list of functions" not "list of function designators" 2016-10-24T20:40:20Z jasom: but I tested it and it works 2016-10-24T20:40:21Z TruePika: jasom: that makes things a lot easier, since 'foo eql 'foo 2016-10-24T20:40:32Z phoe_: ^ 2016-10-24T20:40:36Z TruePika: I can just pushnew 2016-10-24T20:40:56Z jasom: and figure out how to get the docs fixed :) 2016-10-24T20:40:57Z TruePika: also how did I not know about pushnew until today? 2016-10-24T20:41:08Z TruePika: I kept doing the long setf/adjoin 2016-10-24T20:41:22Z Xach_: practice and experience! 2016-10-24T20:41:35Z Xach_: also, read the spec from front to back once per year (or more or less) 2016-10-24T20:41:41Z jasom: TruePika: you can't learn about rome in a day. 2016-10-24T20:41:52Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T20:42:25Z TruePika: jasom: I've read CLQR cover-to-cover several times 2016-10-24T20:42:54Z titankiller quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T20:43:02Z Xach_: that is too quick 2016-10-24T20:43:11Z Xach_: you need the common lisp slow reference to really sink in 2016-10-24T20:46:22Z enfors` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-10-24T20:49:08Z dlowe: One thing I used to do is to glance over the common lisp symbol list and see if anything unfamiliar popped out 2016-10-24T20:49:44Z dlowe: clhs 1.9 2016-10-24T20:49:44Z specbot: Symbols in the COMMON-LISP Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_i.htm 2016-10-24T20:50:01Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-24T20:50:37Z rpg: Marinate overnight in the hyperspec, then drain in the morning. 2016-10-24T20:51:40Z dlowe: which is how I learned about such corners as both-case-p and deposit-field 2016-10-24T20:53:00Z sharkteeth quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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2016-10-24T21:32:29Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T21:32:46Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T21:33:01Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-24T21:36:13Z Firedancer quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-24T21:36:17Z Arathnim quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-24T21:37:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T21:40:18Z Firedancer joined #lisp 2016-10-24T21:40:18Z jasom: dlowe: deposit-field; that's the one that masks in some bits; like a combined logand, dpb and ashift? 2016-10-24T21:42:16Z jasom: or I suppose two logands of mask-field 2016-10-24T21:45:32Z jasom: ah, ldb/dpb and mask-field/deposit-field are basically the same but the first pair implcitily shifts and the second pair does not. 2016-10-24T21:46:12Z jasom: dlowe: thanks for pointing that one out; it may come in handy some day 2016-10-24T21:48:30Z axion: iirc ldb/dpb are setf-able too 2016-10-24T21:49:58Z Baggers left #lisp 2016-10-24T21:50:35Z axion: err wait that is incorrect. it wouldn't make sense for dpb to be 2016-10-24T21:51:48Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-24T21:54:31Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T21:57:46Z kamog quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T21:57:49Z jasom: mask-field is also SETF able 2016-10-24T21:58:50Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-24T22:01:12Z razzy89___ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T22:02:34Z heurist__ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T22:02:45Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T22:04:22Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-10-24T22:05:26Z heurist`_` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T22:05:53Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-24T22:07:16Z adolf_st_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T22:08:16Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T22:08:37Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-24T22:10:25Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2016-10-24T22:10:50Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-24T22:15:41Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T22:17:54Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-24T22:18:21Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T22:19:56Z xantoz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T22:21:43Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-24T22:25:01Z zacts quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-24T22:25:55Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-24T22:26:35Z zacts quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-24T22:27:05Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T22:27:44Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-24T22:29:13Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-24T22:30:01Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T22:30:18Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-24T22:30:49Z pjb: isoraqathedh: have a look at com.informatimago.clext.pipe https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/clext/pipe-article-en.txt 2016-10-24T22:31:19Z LiamH quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-24T22:31:52Z pjb quit (Quit: Good night!) 2016-10-24T22:31:53Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T22:31:57Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-24T22:32:08Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T22:39:20Z isoraqathedh: Holy crap, clext is huge. 2016-10-24T22:39:50Z jasom: isoraqathedh: If it's multithreaded, I honestly just use socketpair 2016-10-24T22:40:09Z jasom: though I don't recall if usocket has socketpair 2016-10-24T22:40:21Z isoraqathedh: I'll have to have a think about it. 2016-10-24T22:40:43Z isoraqathedh: I mean, failing all this an intermediate string format isn't utterly horrid – 2016-10-24T22:41:03Z isoraqathedh: The only reason why I wanted an output stream to begin with is because UIOP's run-program wants it. 2016-10-24T22:41:28Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-24T22:42:02Z jasom: isoraqathedh: string-output-stream? 2016-10-24T22:42:20Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_s_2.htm 2016-10-24T22:42:26Z jasom: or :output :string 2016-10-24T22:43:08Z jasom: (uiop:run-program "echo hi" :output :string) 2016-10-24T22:46:12Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-24T22:46:35Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-24T22:51:33Z gendl: Hi, has anyone ever seen an issue with M-x slime-connect where you try to connect to a remote lisp, and you get 2016-10-24T22:51:36Z gendl: "Can't locate module: SWANK-IO-PACKAGE::SWANK-TRACE-DIALOG" 2016-10-24T22:51:45Z gendl: unless the swank in the remote lisp has the contribs loaded? 2016-10-24T22:52:01Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T22:52:38Z gendl: suddenly it seems I have to start loading contribs into the remote lisp, otherwise I get this error when trying to connect from remote emacs. I'm pretty sure it didn't used to be that way and i'm pulling out my hair trying to figure out what may have changed 2016-10-24T22:52:49Z sellout- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T22:53:01Z gendl: to load contribs, I do (swank-loader::compile-contribs :load t) 2016-10-24T22:55:50Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T22:56:34Z leo_song joined #lisp 2016-10-24T22:57:07Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T22:57:32Z leo_song quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-24T22:58:08Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T23:02:06Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T23:03:07Z nhoJ left #lisp 2016-10-24T23:03:36Z reepca` is now known as reepca 2016-10-24T23:03:36Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:04:31Z leo_song joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:05:21Z BusFactor1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-24T23:05:23Z leo_song quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-24T23:05:55Z leo_song joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:11:03Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-24T23:13:10Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:13:15Z jasom: gendl: are you certain that the slime and swank are of the same version? 2016-10-24T23:13:15Z jasom: gendl: slime is very picky about which version of swank it connects to. 2016-10-24T23:13:36Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:14:38Z MorTal1ty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-24T23:16:17Z sharkteeth joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:16:23Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-24T23:16:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:17:33Z MorTal1ty joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:17:35Z nikki93 quit 2016-10-24T23:17:45Z l1x joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:27:18Z SpaceDanceCJ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:28:15Z Blukunfando quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T23:42:41Z binghe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-24T23:42:41Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T23:43:01Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T23:43:02Z tessier_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-24T23:43:02Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:43:02Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-24T23:43:05Z ski joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:43:06Z ferada_ joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:43:07Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-24T23:43:08Z lain1 joined #lisp 2016-10-24T23:43:42Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-25T00:53:18Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-25T01:02:46Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T01:09:31Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T01:11:23Z gendl: jasom: I had been using mismatched versions but I updated my emacs side to same version, still same issue. It's not a big problem, I can just load the contribs, but i still can't explain why it started suddenly being a prob. 2016-10-25T01:13:25Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-25T01:20:55Z raydeejay: clhs defun 2016-10-25T01:20:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 2016-10-25T01:29:16Z bluezone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-25T01:33:27Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-25T01:36:06Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-25T01:38:12Z vshyba joined #lisp 2016-10-25T01:43:49Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-25T01:45:32Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-25T01:53:37Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-25T01:58:29Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-25T02:01:08Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-25T02:07:32Z krwq` joined #lisp 2016-10-25T02:09:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-25T02:13:53Z krwq` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T02:14:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T02:23:07Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-25T02:27:15Z krwq` joined #lisp 2016-10-25T02:27:39Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T02:30:08Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-25T02:34:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T02:36:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-25T02:37:34Z kjak___ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-25T02:38:22Z kjak__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-10-25T02:45:34Z Guest93869 is now known as Khisanth 2016-10-25T02:46:40Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-25T02:48:53Z npatrick04 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T02:51:05Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T02:51:45Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T02:51:49Z Jameser_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-25T02:53:02Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-25T02:53:08Z krwq` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T02:55:00Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T03:01:59Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:03:52Z Jameser quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-25T03:05:49Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T03:06:19Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:08:09Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:08:17Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-25T03:11:35Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:11:42Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:13:47Z Jameser_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-25T03:14:50Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T03:14:54Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:22:33Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-25T03:32:47Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:33:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T03:36:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:40:05Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:44:37Z kjak_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:44:39Z kjak__ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:45:22Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:45:33Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-25T03:49:59Z kjak_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-25T03:50:12Z kjak__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T03:50:58Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:51:39Z yoosi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T03:51:45Z kjak_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:51:49Z kjak__ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:52:02Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:52:09Z yoosi joined #lisp 2016-10-25T03:52:48Z loke`: HELLO! 2016-10-25T03:53:04Z myrkraverk: good morning beach 2016-10-25T03:59:40Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-25T04:01:12Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-25T04:01:58Z alkesandr joined #lisp 2016-10-25T04:04:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T04:06:23Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-25T04:10:23Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-25T04:15:46Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T04:26:52Z alkesandr quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-25T04:26:53Z John[Lisbeth] joined #lisp 2016-10-25T04:27:21Z John[Lisbeth]: I am wondering if there is a lisp way to build stack machines 2016-10-25T04:28:12Z John[Lisbeth]: you know actually I think this question belongs in another channel 2016-10-25T04:29:46Z beach: What kind of "stack machine"? 2016-10-25T04:30:49Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T04:33:24Z Orion3k quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T04:33:26Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-25T04:34:05Z John[Lisbeth]: a forth-like stack machine 2016-10-25T04:34:48Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-25T04:35:18Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-25T04:35:39Z beach: Define a sequence of INSTRUCTIONs, each INSTRUCTION being an instance of (a subclass of) the class INSTRUCTION. Define a stack of values as an ordinary Common Lisp list. Define a method on each subclass of INSTRUCTION that operates on the stack of values. Done. 2016-10-25T04:36:34Z John[Lisbeth]: sure but I am wondering what's been done before I arrived on the scene 2016-10-25T04:51:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T04:51:58Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-25T04:54:40Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-25T04:55:20Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-10-25T04:56:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T04:56:20Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T05:04:06Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2016-10-25T05:05:32Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-25T05:05:40Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-25T05:09:59Z rpg_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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now known as CrazEd 2016-10-25T07:24:21Z CrazEd is now known as Guest10530 2016-10-25T07:26:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:27:13Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:28:13Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:28:37Z Tordek quit (Quit: pleh) 2016-10-25T07:28:51Z isoraqathedh_ is now known as isoraqathedh 2016-10-25T07:28:54Z Tordek joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:30:50Z beaky: ah 2016-10-25T07:31:59Z beaky: i thought lexical scoping was the way to go, and dynamic scoping was a historical leftover left in the standard (and oughtnto be avoided for the same reasons people avoid globals in other langs)? 2016-10-25T07:32:14Z loke`: beaky: Dynamic scoping is useful for certain things. 2016-10-25T07:32:26Z loke`: beaky: The problem is having it be the _default_. 2016-10-25T07:32:38Z beaky: oh 2016-10-25T07:33:00Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:33:22Z loke`: For example, dynamic binding of *STANDARD-OUTPUT* is incredibly useful, and the alternative would be much more of a hassle. 2016-10-25T07:33:47Z beaky: yes im wondering if configuring packages by setf-ing some *speciavar* is teally a good idea 2016-10-25T07:33:55Z loke`: In fact, in Java you have to use the workarounds all the time, since it doesn't have dynamic variables (it has thread-local storage, which sometimes can be a solution, but it's ugly) 2016-10-25T07:34:07Z loke`: beaky: Yes. It's a good idea. 2016-10-25T07:34:22Z loke`: beaky: I'd simply refer to that as "global variables". 2016-10-25T07:37:04Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T07:37:51Z isoraqathedh: jasom: Ah – the thing is, I need an output stream to slot a string into the program's input. 2016-10-25T07:40:38Z Davidbrcz_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:43:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:43:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-25T07:43:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:44:23Z binghe joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:45:36Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:46:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:51:07Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-25T07:51:46Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:51:46Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Changing host) 2016-10-25T07:51:46Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:54:05Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:54:50Z varjag: could anyne point me to an example of using cffi translators for cstructs? 2016-10-25T07:55:40Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-10-25T07:57:03Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-25T07:59:41Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:00:56Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:01:11Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:04:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T08:04:25Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-25T08:04:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:07:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T08:07:46Z hhdave joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:07:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:10:46Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:12:55Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:13:21Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T08:13:22Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2016-10-25T08:14:36Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T08:16:18Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-25T08:17:24Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T08:18:23Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-25T08:24:26Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:24:41Z Guest10530 is now known as CrazEd 2016-10-25T08:25:11Z CrazEd is now known as Guest74985 2016-10-25T08:28:42Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-25T08:34:46Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:35:19Z jdz: beaky: binding is not the same as setting. 2016-10-25T08:35:21Z Neet is now known as neet 2016-10-25T08:36:58Z jdz: In Common Lisp people usually bind special variables, so their values are only changed for the duration (dynamic scope) of the binding form. 2016-10-25T08:37:34Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:42:45Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T08:46:25Z ak5 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-25T08:57:01Z impulse- is now known as impulse 2016-10-25T08:57:38Z trueneu joined #lisp 2016-10-25T09:04:57Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T09:05:29Z scymtym: isoraqathedh: maybe like this: (uiop:run-program "wc -c" :input (make-string-input-stream "hello") :output :string) ? 2016-10-25T09:06:22Z Bike quit (Quit: slerp) 2016-10-25T09:07:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T09:09:12Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-10-25T09:12:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-25T09:15:51Z Davidbrcz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-25T09:22:35Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-25T09:22:44Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-25T09:25:35Z Guest74985 is now known as CrazEd 2016-10-25T09:26:07Z CrazEd is now known as Guest29164 2016-10-25T09:26:17Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-25T09:27:53Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-25T09:31:18Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-25T09:34:39Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-25T09:35:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T09:39:52Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T09:42:03Z binghe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T09:46:11Z ferada_ is now known as ferada 2016-10-25T09:46:40Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-25T09:49:26Z Jameser_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T09:50:05Z scottj joined #lisp 2016-10-25T09:53:17Z joga_ quit (Changing host) 2016-10-25T09:53:17Z joga_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T09:53:20Z joga_ is now known as joga 2016-10-25T09:53:48Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T09:58:22Z jurov_ is now known as jurov 2016-10-25T10:10:02Z scottj: Is there a way to write (when nil (existing-package:non-existing-function)) that doesn't raise an error? Trying to figure out how write (when (uiop:version<= "3.1.5" (asdf:asdf-version)) (asdf:register-immutable-system :foo)) where it won't error on asdf less than 3.1.5. 2016-10-25T10:12:41Z scymtym: scottj: (uiop:symbol-call '#:existing-package '#:non-existing-function) 2016-10-25T10:13:18Z scymtym: (also works if the package does not exist) 2016-10-25T10:14:37Z scottj: scymtym: thanks 2016-10-25T10:15:09Z k4rtik quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T10:17:35Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-25T10:26:21Z Guest29164 is now known as CrazEd 2016-10-25T10:26:22Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T10:26:30Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-25T10:26:52Z CrazEd is now known as Guest91557 2016-10-25T10:26:58Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T10:27:29Z Rampages quit (Quit: Haters gonna hate.) 2016-10-25T10:29:15Z e is now known as deadk 2016-10-25T10:31:40Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T10:37:44Z arduo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T10:39:54Z OxOO quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T10:40:24Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-10-25T10:40:51Z didi joined #lisp 2016-10-25T10:41:00Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T10:41:54Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-25T10:42:12Z didi: Is it possible that comparing natural numbers with EQL be quicker than when =? I have a tight loop with a call to MEMBER and passing `:test '=' to it made it slower. 2016-10-25T10:42:49Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-25T10:43:05Z _death: if you have a tight loop with member you're already losing 2016-10-25T10:43:14Z didi: OK. 2016-10-25T10:43:29Z White_Flame: check the disassembly 2016-10-25T10:43:39Z didi: White_Flame: Good idea. 2016-10-25T10:43:40Z White_Flame: it might also be inlining one case and not the other 2016-10-25T10:43:51Z didi: White_Flame: Thanks. 2016-10-25T10:45:16Z bobdylan joined #lisp 2016-10-25T10:46:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T10:53:14Z binghe joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:02:55Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:08:52Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-25T11:11:55Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:12:05Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T11:27:16Z Guest91557 is now known as CrazEd 2016-10-25T11:27:45Z CrazEd is now known as Guest51480 2016-10-25T11:28:38Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:30:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:31:45Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:33:16Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:35:09Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:35:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-25T11:35:25Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:38:14Z yoosi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T11:38:45Z yoosi joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:45:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:46:27Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:48:33Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-10-25T11:50:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T11:58:55Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-25T12:00:18Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:04:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:05:39Z nirved joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:08:48Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T12:10:49Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:13:50Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:17:04Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-25T12:21:29Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:28:14Z Guest51480 is now known as CrazEd 2016-10-25T12:28:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:28:44Z CrazEd is now known as Guest13113 2016-10-25T12:29:51Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:29:51Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:33:29Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:33:56Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T12:34:44Z otjura quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-25T12:34:59Z i-dont-have-a-ni joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:37:51Z i-dont-have-a-ni: Is there a way to save an SBCL executable core so that it starts up in a specific package when run? Basically I want to use SBCL for shell (+scripts), and have a package SHELL-SCRIPT set up for the purpose, but it's annoying to manually start with (in-package :shell-script) everytime. 2016-10-25T12:38:56Z jackdaniel: I think cl-launch has such parameter for shebang 2016-10-25T12:39:16Z didi left #lisp 2016-10-25T12:40:21Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:41:46Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-25T12:42:33Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:42:38Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T12:44:06Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-25T12:44:10Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T12:46:56Z i-dont-have-a-ni: jackdaniel: Ok, thanks. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-25T15:44:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-25T15:48:59Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-25T15:52:12Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T15:59:38Z heurist joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:00:20Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T16:02:32Z heurist__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T16:03:33Z pierpa wants to know who had the idea to define time zones in CL as they are defined and strike them on the head with a concrete reinforced copy of CLTL. 2016-10-25T16:08:12Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:11:09Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:11:47Z rumbler31 quit 2016-10-25T16:13:08Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:13:33Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:13:52Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-25T16:17:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:23:31Z jasom: pierpa: local-time 2016-10-25T16:24:00Z jasom: pierpa: https://common-lisp.net/project/local-time/manual.html 2016-10-25T16:24:44Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:24:48Z pierpa: I was just looking at it. and It's tremendous 2016-10-25T16:24:58Z pierpa: (not in a positive sense) 2016-10-25T16:25:37Z jasom: pierpa: how so? 2016-10-25T16:26:04Z pierpa: first thing, just at the beginning of the manual they say that they chose to be non portable just for spite 2016-10-25T16:26:36Z pierpa: "The variable *default-timezone* contains the timezone that will be used by default if none is specified. It is loaded from /etc/localtime when the library is loaded. If /etc/localtime is not present, it will default to UTC." 2016-10-25T16:27:14Z jasom: pierpa: I'm certain that if you wanted to provide a patch to get the timezone from windows, they would accept it. It's not from spite it's just that none of the developers use windows. 2016-10-25T16:27:35Z pierpa: the default time zone can be obtained from standard CL functions so reading it from a file that they happen to have in the OS they like it's ridiculous 2016-10-25T16:27:55Z rjid left #lisp 2016-10-25T16:29:18Z jasom: pierpa: you cannot get the default time zone from standard CL functions 2016-10-25T16:30:14Z pierpa: you can 2016-10-25T16:30:26Z jasom: pierpa: nope 2016-10-25T16:30:38Z jasom: you can get the offset from GMT and whether or not DST is in effect 2016-10-25T16:30:47Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:30:49Z jasom: that is insufficient to calculate the time zone 2016-10-25T16:31:25Z pierpa: that's exactly what a time zone is 2016-10-25T16:31:32Z Guest64270 is now known as CrazEd 2016-10-25T16:31:34Z jasom: hahahahahahaha 2016-10-25T16:32:02Z CrazEd is now known as Guest2078 2016-10-25T16:32:08Z jasom: with several dozen probes into that you could probably narrow down the timezone to a handful of possibilities. 2016-10-25T16:33:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T16:33:40Z pipping kicks jasom for behaving like a dick 2016-10-25T16:34:17Z joshe: pierpa: try subtracting 30 years and then calculating localtime using only UTC offset and dst boolean 2016-10-25T16:34:53Z joshe: a timezone is the what you use to derive the utc offset, not the offset itself 2016-10-25T16:35:03Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:35:06Z flacko joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:35:40Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T16:36:59Z jasom: a timezone is very nearly a geographic location (there are some locations in which the timezone is disputed) 2016-10-25T16:38:23Z fandral joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:38:54Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:40:03Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-25T16:40:10Z fandral: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/ef931141ca2e77798755b8d8bbd7b4fc 2016-10-25T16:40:23Z fandral: why does this give me an error? iit says B is not of type list but why does it have to be a list? 2016-10-25T16:40:36Z jasom: And to be fair, IF the implementation calculates DST and UTC offset in accordance with the zoneinfo that local-time uses, you could narrow down the timezone fairly accurately by querrying the time at different points in history. 2016-10-25T16:40:41Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T16:41:01Z jasom: That seems much more error prone than just looking at /etc/localtime on non-windows systems though. 2016-10-25T16:41:23Z jasom: the point remains that they are not non-portable just for spite, they are non-portable because being portable is *hard*. 2016-10-25T16:41:27Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:41:33Z Bike: fandral: FIRST gets you the first element of a list. You called (first 'b), indirectly 2016-10-25T16:41:47Z Bike: (nth 1 *inferences*) is (B (4 5 6)). (first (nth 1 *inferences)) is B. 2016-10-25T16:42:04Z fandral: oh i didnt even realize 2016-10-25T16:42:21Z fandral: thank you 2016-10-25T16:42:22Z Bike: yeah, it's nice to check the itnermediate values if something is behaving unexpectedly. 2016-10-25T16:42:34Z jasom: pipping, pierpa, I apologize for behaving like a dick. I had a fairly strong reaction to pierpa's implication that the authors of local-time were malicious. 2016-10-25T16:42:57Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T16:44:53Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:47:38Z pierpa: jasom: no problem for me. I should have been less blunt too. 2016-10-25T16:48:59Z rjid: Hi there! 2016-10-25T16:49:12Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T16:49:40Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-25T16:49:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:50:43Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-25T16:50:54Z NitroWheels quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-25T16:51:18Z MetaHertz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-25T16:51:19Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:51:44Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:53:26Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:54:32Z pipping: jasom: thanks; sorry for calling you one ;) 2016-10-25T16:55:12Z jasom: pipping: no, I appreciate it :) 2016-10-25T16:55:24Z neuri8 quit (Quit: L) 2016-10-25T16:56:55Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T16:57:15Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-25T16:58:16Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T16:59:19Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:01:25Z fandral quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-10-25T17:01:36Z dlowe: Oh, I'm totally malicious :D 2016-10-25T17:01:54Z dlowe: but it is a hard problem. 2016-10-25T17:02:19Z trueneu quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-25T17:03:31Z pipping: the sad part is that it's a man-made hard problem 2016-10-25T17:03:48Z dlowe: notably, if you have a sub-timezone with a given offset (like EDT), there are other sub-timezones that share the offset but not other aspects, like daylight savings rules 2016-10-25T17:04:41Z dlowe: what's going to be "fun" is when we actually have a mars colony and have to deal with martian timezones/periods of rotation 2016-10-25T17:05:17Z raydeejay: you just say "stardate" and add a number pulled straight out of your hat 2016-10-25T17:05:21Z pipping: not convinced that'll be the hardest part of living on and getting to mars 2016-10-25T17:05:49Z dlowe: it's one problem of many. 2016-10-25T17:06:18Z dlowe: coordination in spacetime is fairly important to any large-scale project, though. 2016-10-25T17:06:34Z Xach_: spacetime through facetime 2016-10-25T17:07:14Z pipping: Xach_: is that your slogan for the 2016 campaign? 2016-10-25T17:09:05Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T17:10:18Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:10:57Z Xach_: possibly 2016-10-25T17:12:45Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-25T17:13:35Z isoraqathedh: It seems like a common lisp library for reading fits files might be on the horizon soon, as I feel like I need it. 2016-10-25T17:13:41Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T17:14:10Z rpg_: It's kind of sad how badly internationalization has been taped onto our information processing architectures. 2016-10-25T17:14:20Z rpg_: Timezones and Unicode both seem like horrible messes. 2016-10-25T17:14:23Z rpg_ is now known as rpg 2016-10-25T17:14:30Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:15:01Z isoraqathedh: It's a mess primarily because humans are messy. 2016-10-25T17:21:12Z rjid: After the concrete math we would like to appreciate a book titled "the concrete timezone" :) 2016-10-25T17:22:48Z dlowe: this may come as a surprise, but pretty much no one gives a shit about how easy things are to program into a computer. 2016-10-25T17:22:56Z pierpa: and CL adds its own little bit to the mess by defining its time zones as the opposite of everyone's else time zones. 2016-10-25T17:30:20Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T17:32:13Z Guest2078 is now known as CrazEd 2016-10-25T17:32:15Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:32:22Z ejbs joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:32:44Z CrazEd is now known as Guest11127 2016-10-25T17:32:51Z ejbs: Is there a way to get full compiler notes in the REPL when using SBCL and SLIME? 2016-10-25T17:32:58Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:33:33Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:35:01Z NitroWheels quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-25T17:35:29Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:35:30Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:35:44Z rjid quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-10-25T17:40:48Z rpg: isoraqathedh: It's also a mess because people didn't think hard about this stuff early, and butchered it in after the fact. 2016-10-25T17:41:29Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-25T17:41:51Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:43:30Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:46:11Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-25T17:50:31Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:52:25Z PlasmaStar quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-25T17:52:49Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:53:31Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-10-25T17:59:47Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:03:33Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:06:35Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:08:27Z k4rtik quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-25T18:08:31Z jurov: it mostly comes pre-butchered 2016-10-25T18:11:59Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-25T18:16:13Z gacepa quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-25T18:19:18Z nirved left #lisp 2016-10-25T18:19:21Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:21:46Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-25T18:22:03Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:22:45Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T18:23:17Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:23:46Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T18:24:33Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-25T18:25:13Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:27:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T18:28:18Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T18:28:32Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:29:47Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:31:36Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T18:31:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:32:40Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:33:15Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:33:23Z shrdlu68: Is there a built-in macro for binding a variables in a list to objects in another list? 2016-10-25T18:33:24Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:33:58Z dlowe: shrdlu68: maybe you're looking for destructuring-bind? 2016-10-25T18:34:02Z dlowe: clhs destructuring-bind 2016-10-25T18:34:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 2016-10-25T18:34:11Z shrdlu68: A sort of destructuring-bind that takes '(foo bar) '("will be foo" "will be bar") 2016-10-25T18:34:24Z dlowe: clhs progv 2016-10-25T18:34:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 2016-10-25T18:34:35Z dlowe: except progv makes dynamic variables 2016-10-25T18:35:30Z shrdlu68: Except destructuring-bind won't eval it's first argument. 2016-10-25T18:35:51Z dlowe: you want progv, I think. 2016-10-25T18:36:32Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T18:36:34Z flip214: can I find out whether a given symbol is in a package, even if it's imported from another or got renamed? 2016-10-25T18:36:52Z flip214: I guess I have to loop across all symbols in that package, there won't be any faster lookup available 2016-10-25T18:36:58Z shrdlu68: dlowe: Precisely. 2016-10-25T18:37:05Z Xach_: flip214: find-symbol is one tool for that. 2016-10-25T18:37:06Z dlowe: flip214: find-symbol 2016-10-25T18:41:09Z pjb: flip214: there's no way to rename symbols. 2016-10-25T18:43:38Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:43:38Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-25T18:43:38Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:45:09Z flip214: thanks 2016-10-25T18:56:40Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-25T18:56:59Z nullniverse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T18:59:22Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-25T19:03:07Z jurov: is there some non-toy commonqt code to learn from? 2016-10-25T19:03:26Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T19:03:57Z jurov: for example, I don't see anything about overriding methods with object parameters 2016-10-25T19:03:59Z pipping: rpg: unicode is not a complete disaster, is it? 2016-10-25T19:04:11Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T19:05:14Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T19:09:18Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-25T19:11:11Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-10-25T19:11:28Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T19:13:13Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-25T19:13:38Z younder: jurov, Not that I am aware, it is not very well documented. Also it is new. 2016-10-25T19:13:53Z jasom: commonqt isn't super new, qtools is 2016-10-25T19:15:42Z flacko quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2016-10-25T19:16:20Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-25T19:17:00Z younder: pipping, rpg: I don't understand this aversion to unicode. It seems to do what it is supposed to reasonably well. 2016-10-25T19:17:15Z rpg: pipping: the horrible thing about unicode is that you can't look at a file and know what its encoding is. 2016-10-25T19:17:24Z jurov: younder: commonqt is new??? 2016-10-25T19:17:53Z ferada: rpg: but even in general you can only guess, so what's specific about unicode? 2016-10-25T19:18:30Z rpg: ferada: If we had built filesystems with encodings specified, then unicode would be fine. The context of Unicode in our filesystems is what makes it horrible 2016-10-25T19:19:00Z rpg: Filesystems without encoding specs weren't given us by nature, they are a fail we made for ourselves 2016-10-25T19:19:54Z dlowe: rpg: so that's a problem with encodings, not unicode in particualr 2016-10-25T19:19:55Z ferada: right, we just have to get everyone/-software to use extended file attributes for it 2016-10-25T19:20:01Z ferada: that too 2016-10-25T19:20:13Z dlowe: ubiquitous unicode is the best answer so far. 2016-10-25T19:20:20Z jurov: convert everything to utf-8 and forget it 2016-10-25T19:24:15Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-25T19:24:46Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-25T19:31:19Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T19:31:43Z dwrngr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T19:36:46Z jasom: rpg: windows adopted UCS-2 into its filesystem in the 90s. 2016-10-25T19:37:03Z nilof joined #lisp 2016-10-25T19:37:06Z jasom: rpg: on *nix utf-8 encoded filenames is becoming the norm 2016-10-25T19:37:44Z rpg: I don't think UTF-8 default == Unicode support. 2016-10-25T19:38:12Z jasom: rpg: unspecified encodings of data is completely unrelated to unicode 2016-10-25T19:38:45Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-25T19:38:50Z rpg: jasom: Except that that's where we mostly bump into it. 2016-10-25T19:39:15Z younder: rpg, what? Of corse that pages you see will depend on the font. Very few font's support all uf unicode. 2016-10-25T19:39:21Z jasom: rpg: only because unicode has very nearly replaced all other encodings. If the year were 1995 we'd be talking about ISO-8859-X and SJIS and big-5 2016-10-25T19:39:40Z dwc: KOI-8R 2016-10-25T19:39:48Z rpg: I suppose for others numerical encodings are a substantial challenge -- for me I've always been able to handle that by transport, rather than fighting file encodings. 2016-10-25T19:40:25Z pipping: dlowe: that leaves out e.g. UTF-8 vs UTF-16 though 2016-10-25T19:40:55Z younder: rpg, All unicode fonsts support ASCII and ISO LATIN - 1 (the euro sign is in 13 though) 2016-10-25T19:41:49Z rpg: I'm not sure why attributed file systems have so failed to take off. 2016-10-25T19:41:55Z younder: Of cource windows uses utf16 2016-10-25T19:41:57Z pipping: (fortunately, hardly anyone uses UTF-7 and UTF-32, right?); last I heard was UTF-16 is a default on windows now in some way...? 2016-10-25T19:42:05Z jasom: dlowe: UTF-8 and UTF-16 are very nearly completely orthogonal in where they can be used as utf-8 is often combined with null-terminated strings. 2016-10-25T19:43:07Z younder: pipping, even with all 4 code pages Unicode is just 18 bits. I have never even heard of a system that uses UTF-32 2016-10-25T19:43:24Z raydeejay wonders what the point of UTF-16 is 2016-10-25T19:43:44Z pierpa: the point is that initially the scope was smaller and 16 bit were enough 2016-10-25T19:43:46Z jasom: raydeejay: originally there were fewer than 65536 unicode codepoints 2016-10-25T19:44:08Z jasom: raydeejay: so it was intended to be a 16-bit fixed-length encoding. 2016-10-25T19:44:10Z raydeejay: ah 2016-10-25T19:44:21Z raydeejay: so 64k codepoints should be enough for anyone 2016-10-25T19:44:29Z pipping: younder: the argument in favour of UTF-32 on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-32 is not one of "we need that much space" but rather "alignment makes things fast" 2016-10-25T19:44:40Z dlowe: sbcl uses utf-32 2016-10-25T19:44:44Z dlowe: internall 2016-10-25T19:44:45Z dlowe: y 2016-10-25T19:45:02Z dlowe has a twitchy return pinky finger today. 2016-10-25T19:45:37Z younder: raydeejay, It provides shorter unicode of european, arabic etc languages 2016-10-25T19:45:51Z jasom: raydeejay: the 30 second mostly wrong version was "Ah, there are only like 20000 CJK characters in common usage, so 64k should be plenty" then the asian countries said "Umm, what about proper names, or if we want to have an electronic copy of important documents like the I Ching?" And they had to make it bigger 2016-10-25T19:45:51Z pipping: I thought you were going for haikus now 2016-10-25T19:46:04Z pipping: dlowe: ^ 2016-10-25T19:46:09Z raydeejay: important documents xD 2016-10-25T19:46:23Z jasom: s/important/historically important/ 2016-10-25T19:46:51Z younder: dlowe, really? I've only seen it's utf-8 interface 2016-10-25T19:47:33Z dlowe: younder: it pretty much has to. Strings have to be vectors of characters, and vectors have to be O(1) to access. 2016-10-25T19:47:33Z Bike: yeah, it does, in the sense that characters in strings are encoded as four bytes. 2016-10-25T19:48:10Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-25T19:48:15Z jasom: languages that treat strings as vectors of chars tend to use utf-32 internally so that the elements of the array are fixed-width 2016-10-25T19:48:31Z jasom: utf-24 could work as well, but would likely be inefficient 2016-10-25T19:49:09Z younder: jasom, allignment, I persome 2016-10-25T19:49:14Z younder: persume 2016-10-25T19:49:15Z jasom: We need to bring back 36-bit word machines, then we could fit 2 unicode characters in a single word. 2016-10-25T19:49:19Z jasom: younder: right 2016-10-25T19:50:38Z younder: jasom, DEC PDF-11's are a thing of the past 2016-10-25T19:50:43Z jasom: though IIRC unicode reserves the right to grow up to ~2^20 code points 2016-10-25T19:51:00Z pierpa: PDP-11 was 16 bit, not 36 2016-10-25T19:51:26Z pierpa: 2^21 2016-10-25T19:52:16Z younder: pierpa, opps pdp-6/pdp10 2016-10-25T19:52:59Z pierpa: I think you mean DEC-10 ? 2016-10-25T19:53:01Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-25T19:53:15Z pierpa: that's the machine which ran maclisp 2016-10-25T19:53:19Z younder: pierpa, yes 2016-10-25T19:54:52Z pierpa: oops, actually it was called PDP-10. I always read about it as DEC-10, though 2016-10-25T19:55:04Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-25T19:55:25Z jurov tries to evaluate #\pile_of_poo 2016-10-25T19:55:31Z jurov: not recognized :( 2016-10-25T19:55:57Z jurov files sbcl bug 2016-10-25T19:56:15Z BusFacto_ is now known as kruhft 2016-10-25T19:56:45Z mood: jurov: Works fine for me 2016-10-25T19:57:34Z jurov: oh, really... lol i made a typo 2016-10-25T19:58:23Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:09:10Z TDT quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T20:09:33Z renzz joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:09:37Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-25T20:10:13Z renzz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T20:11:53Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T20:13:38Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:17:25Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:22:18Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T20:24:08Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:27:52Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T20:29:49Z gensym quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-25T20:32:31Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T20:32:34Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:32:57Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:35:25Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-25T20:35:37Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-25T20:36:52Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-25T20:37:08Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-25T20:39:49Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T20:40:20Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:40:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T20:42:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:43:46Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T20:43:52Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:44:42Z z3r0_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:45:49Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2016-10-25T20:47:15Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:50:18Z nullniverse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-25T20:51:00Z varjag: is :conc-name option in cffi defcstruct deprecated? 2016-10-25T20:51:09Z varjag: it isn't listed in the docs 2016-10-25T20:51:34Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-25T20:52:31Z trueneu joined #lisp 2016-10-25T20:54:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T20:55:30Z younder: wanna share a cite http://mathb.in/97000 for formatting math 2016-10-25T20:55:39Z younder: in LaTex 2016-10-25T21:02:59Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-25T21:03:25Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-25T21:04:23Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T21:15:35Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T21:16:17Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-25T21:18:52Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-25T21:23:05Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-25T21:24:52Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T21:27:06Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-25T21:27:37Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-25T21:29:39Z scottj left #lisp 2016-10-25T21:32:41Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-25T21:33:54Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-25T21:39:02Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T21:39:04Z cyberlard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T21:40:39Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-25T21:41:07Z neuri8 quit (Quit: L) 2016-10-25T21:41:17Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2016-10-25T21:42:36Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T21:42:48Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T21:44:00Z trocado joined #lisp 2016-10-25T21:45:07Z z3r0_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-25T21:48:09Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-25T21:53:18Z kruhft: oh my, i just found ceramic 2016-10-25T21:53:34Z kruhft: this looks interesting to combine with parenscript 2016-10-25T21:55:22Z kruhft: aaaaand....(ceramic:start) causes electron to crash 2016-10-25T21:55:27Z kruhft: :-/ 2016-10-25T21:55:37Z kruhft dares to dream 2016-10-25T21:55:40Z phoe_: kruhft: quantum mechanics 2016-10-25T21:55:51Z kruhft: must have collapsed the wave function 2016-10-25T21:56:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T21:56:24Z kruhft: osx is painful sometimes 2016-10-25T21:56:49Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T21:58:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T21:59:46Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:01:40Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:04:38Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T22:07:20Z k4rtik joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:08:10Z ejbs: I'm trying to find out who calls def-ir1-translator by using SLIME's "Who calls"-command but this returns no callers found. Is there something I must set up to use this? M-. works as expected 2016-10-25T22:14:45Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T22:16:07Z nilof quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-10-25T22:17:36Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-25T22:17:41Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-25T22:17:55Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-10-25T22:22:03Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-25T22:23:46Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:24:02Z ejbs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T22:24:23Z NitroWheels quit (Quit: Quitting: 6502 is calling me) 2016-10-25T22:26:43Z MoALTz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-25T22:27:18Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:28:23Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T22:35:17Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-25T22:36:20Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:37:00Z _death: weird stuff to do while bored http://paste.lisp.org/display/329585 2016-10-25T22:38:03Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-25T22:40:59Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T22:41:36Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:42:04Z trueneu quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-25T22:42:17Z titankiller quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T22:43:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:43:19Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:44:40Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T22:45:05Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-25T22:46:12Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T22:46:28Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:47:05Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:47:23Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T22:53:57Z kruhft quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T22:56:38Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-25T22:58:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-25T22:59:54Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T23:00:05Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-25T23:03:22Z Baggers left #lisp 2016-10-25T23:04:16Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T23:05:20Z killmaster joined #lisp 2016-10-25T23:05:29Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-25T23:06:11Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-25T23:11:53Z Xach_: _death: accurately labeled 2016-10-25T23:13:45Z _death: familiar? (alot! (count-if (lambda (area) (and (divergent-ways-p area) (convergence-p (mapcar (lambda (implementation) (way area implementation)) (common-lisp-implementation))))) areas)) 2016-10-25T23:14:11Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-10-25T23:17:53Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-25T23:18:48Z adolf_st_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T23:20:19Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-25T23:22:11Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-10-25T23:22:58Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-25T23:30:58Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-25T23:36:33Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T23:46:03Z OhBoyHereWeGo joined #lisp 2016-10-25T23:48:41Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-25T23:49:03Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-25T23:51:53Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-25T23:53:24Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-25T23:55:56Z arpunk quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-10-26T00:00:48Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-10-26T00:02:50Z klltkr` joined #lisp 2016-10-26T00:07:20Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T00:09:00Z OhBoyHereWeGo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T00:11:30Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-26T00:12:49Z arpunk joined #lisp 2016-10-26T00:12:51Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-26T00:15:56Z drmeister: Can CFFI callbacks take structures by value or return structures? 2016-10-26T00:16:07Z drmeister: Looking it up... 2016-10-26T00:18:16Z OhBoyHereWeGo joined #lisp 2016-10-26T00:19:07Z drmeister: I found this in the CFFI docs: "For example, structs that must be passed on the stack, or used as return values, without corresponding functional abstractions to create and manage the structs, must be declared explicitly in Lisp. " 2016-10-26T00:19:12Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T00:19:41Z drmeister: So it's possible. I have only a vague idea of how to achieve it. 2016-10-26T00:21:30Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-26T00:21:46Z akkad: can the second version for clozure be optimized? https://gist.github.com/d06e84e95265f1a6618f305a284fa36d 2016-10-26T00:24:30Z _death: if you know the length, you can use make-string and read-sequence 2016-10-26T00:25:09Z akkad: k 2016-10-26T00:25:14Z akkad: good idea. 2016-10-26T00:25:27Z akkad: first need to fix Error: The value # is not of the expected type SEQUENCE. 2016-10-26T00:26:10Z akkad: thought with-input-from-string would provide a sequence 2016-10-26T00:26:26Z akkad: ahh scope 2016-10-26T00:26:59Z Kaisyu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T00:27:49Z akkad: nope 2016-10-26T00:29:55Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T00:36:12Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-26T00:42:34Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-26T00:49:52Z OhBoyHereWeGo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T00:51:45Z moosehead joined #lisp 2016-10-26T00:53:02Z moosehead: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-10-26T00:53:50Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-26T00:54:00Z OhBoyHereWeGo joined #lisp 2016-10-26T00:55:48Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2016-10-26T00:58:01Z _death: interesting that (make-array 42 :element-type 'some-nonexistent-type-specifier) "works" on sbcl 2016-10-26T00:59:00Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T01:00:01Z ryan_vw quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-26T01:00:04Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:01:11Z arpunk quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-10-26T01:01:20Z pierpa: (upgraded-array-element-type 'some-nonexistent-type-specifier) should work too then 2016-10-26T01:01:29Z _death: pierpa: nope, that results in an error 2016-10-26T01:01:30Z arpunk joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:02:47Z pierpa: that's weird then 2016-10-26T01:03:39Z pierpa: in CCL both work 2016-10-26T01:04:16Z _death: I'd expect both to signal an error.. at least with safety 3 2016-10-26T01:05:08Z pierpa: I expected them to agree, either both or none error 2016-10-26T01:05:46Z pierpa: see the note in clhs 2016-10-26T01:05:57Z pierpa: clhs upgraded-array-element-type 2016-10-26T01:05:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm 2016-10-26T01:06:50Z Bike: notes aren't normative. i mean, that's still weird. 2016-10-26T01:07:13Z pierpa: yes 2016-10-26T01:07:29Z pierpa: the most helpful behaviour would be to error, I guess 2016-10-26T01:08:38Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T01:12:08Z OhBoyHereWeGo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T01:18:12Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:20:28Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T01:20:40Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-10-26T01:20:58Z akkad: ahh allegro nailed the problem type:STRING-INPUT-SIMPLE-STREAMIncomplete JSON string: # 2016-10-26T01:20:59Z akkad: 2016-10-26T01:21:23Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T01:21:23Z tfb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T01:22:37Z mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:23:23Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T01:23:35Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:24:27Z akkad: how does one measure length on a STRING-INPUT-SIMPLE-STREAM? 2016-10-26T01:24:33Z tfb joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:26:50Z arpunk quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-10-26T01:32:48Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T01:41:18Z arpunk joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:43:03Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T01:44:57Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:45:52Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:47:01Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:47:47Z cromachina: it's implementation defined how that should work, but if you inspect the object you may find that it contains that information on it 2016-10-26T01:48:22Z cromachina: for example (sb-impl::string-input-stream-end some-string-stream) may give the length 2016-10-26T01:48:40Z Bike: you uh, maybe should handle it separately. 2016-10-26T01:48:55Z eSVG joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:51:49Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-26T01:53:58Z srcerer joined #lisp 2016-10-26T01:54:36Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T01:59:57Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-26T02:01:36Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:03:37Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:04:22Z akkad: cleaned it up and got a ccl work around https://gist.github.com/0404f36e7017e7066c7dd143548b8556 2016-10-26T02:08:32Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:08:44Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-26T02:08:53Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T02:10:32Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-26T02:17:06Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:17:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:20:56Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T02:21:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:22:28Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T02:22:58Z loke` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T02:24:36Z klltkr` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T02:24:36Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:24:39Z klltkr`` joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:25:28Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:25:57Z moei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T02:26:07Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T02:26:31Z moei joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:28:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:30:09Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:33:23Z loke joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:33:49Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:38:03Z axion: Am I the only one annoyed by that client that thinks it was clever to post a channel message on join? Seems to be taking over my visited channels, particularly this one 2016-10-26T02:39:22Z lain1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T02:39:49Z lain1 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:41:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:43:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:48:38Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:48:51Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:50:19Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T02:50:39Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:50:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:51:12Z Jameser_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-26T02:51:40Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:52:30Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:52:50Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:53:21Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T02:53:28Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T02:54:05Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:55:03Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T02:58:04Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-26T02:58:40Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T03:04:39Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T03:06:42Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-26T03:08:23Z zack1 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:08:52Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-26T03:09:04Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-26T03:09:12Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-26T03:11:51Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T03:13:49Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:13:59Z analyticd joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:14:57Z analyticd left #lisp 2016-10-26T03:15:05Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:20:32Z loke joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:21:51Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:23:32Z razzy89___ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-26T03:26:40Z npatrick04 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T03:26:56Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-26T03:29:19Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-26T03:32:41Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:36:18Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:36:48Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:40:28Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T03:42:36Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:43:11Z Jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-26T03:43:24Z beaky: what client is that 2016-10-26T03:46:54Z beaky: during common lisp's golden age in the 80s-90s (with all those lisp machines), what did lispers use as their 'database' for persistent storage + queries? did they have oracle running on lisp back then :D or did lisp machines come bundled in with their own DBMS 2016-10-26T03:47:57Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:48:59Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T03:55:38Z beaky: (i imagine it to be massives SEXP dumps or some kind of OODBMS thing) 2016-10-26T03:57:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T03:58:00Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T03:59:32Z myrkraverk: In the 21st century, we use postmodern. 2016-10-26T04:01:11Z akkad: axion: add ignore to those actions 2016-10-26T04:01:50Z akkad: postmodern for everything pg except copy 2016-10-26T04:01:58Z akkad: and ecl/abcl 2016-10-26T04:06:06Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T04:14:48Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-26T04:16:19Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T04:18:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-26T04:25:15Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T04:28:27Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-26T04:31:22Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-10-26T04:35:46Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-26T04:39:37Z akkad: in (format nil "~{~A~^ #\tab ~}~%" values) what is the right way to get the literal tab 2016-10-26T04:40:24Z zack1 left #lisp 2016-10-26T04:45:23Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-26T04:45:33Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-26T04:45:59Z axion: Hello beach 2016-10-26T04:46:44Z loke: Hello beach! 2016-10-26T04:47:43Z axion: beach: I recall a conversation in the past about a project of yours - an editor. I was wondering the name of it if I am even asking the right person. 2016-10-26T04:47:53Z beach: Climacs? 2016-10-26T04:48:27Z beach: I am currently working on version 2 of it, called "Second Climacs". 2016-10-26T04:48:49Z axion: Oh, that must be it 2016-10-26T04:50:04Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-26T04:50:25Z loke: beach: How's progress on that one? 2016-10-26T04:52:09Z beach: Slow but steady. I am working on the incremental parser for Common Lisp code. 2016-10-26T04:53:36Z beach: Slow mainly because Bike got me excited about compiler optimizations in Cleavir again, so I am reading Kildall's paper again in order to understand it fully. 2016-10-26T04:54:00Z Bike: ha ha, NOBODY gets to focus when I'M around 2016-10-26T04:54:26Z beach shivers with fear. 2016-10-26T04:55:04Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-10-26T04:55:46Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T04:56:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T04:57:55Z axion: beach: after having worked on an editor for several years looking at the commit history, would you say this project will ever be usable in your lifetime, or is it just a forever/learning project you have fun with? 2016-10-26T04:58:39Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T04:58:45Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-10-26T04:59:54Z beach: I think it will be usable. (first) Climacs is already usable. Writing an editor is not that hard. The main improvement in Second Climacs is the vastly improved incremental parser for Common Lisp. 2016-10-26T05:00:52Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T05:00:56Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T05:01:13Z beach: But, yeah, I have too many projects. I need another apprentice. I already have phoe, but he is currently doing other things. 2016-10-26T05:01:24Z axion: I only ask, because a friend and I have begun the planning stage for a specific editor. Yours seems more general - untying McClim for example 2016-10-26T05:01:26Z loke: I wish I had one. 2016-10-26T05:02:10Z beach: axion: The plan for Second Climacs is to make it more independent of the GUI toolkit than (first) Climacs is. 2016-10-26T05:02:54Z axion: Right, the one we are planning will use OpenGL exclusively. 2016-10-26T05:05:37Z beach: Do you have any plans for editing Common Lisp source code? 2016-10-26T05:05:55Z axion: At first, that is the only thing it will do 2016-10-26T05:06:09Z beach: And how will that work? 2016-10-26T05:08:13Z jasom: beach: is there a reason you're writing an entire new editor instead of applying the improved incremental parser to emacs or climacs? 2016-10-26T05:08:24Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:08:25Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:09:23Z beach: Well, it's Common Lisp, so Emacs is out of the question. I am also improving the buffer representation compared to Climacs, so most things will change. 2016-10-26T05:10:06Z beach: If you are writing a new editor, please consider Cluffer: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer 2016-10-26T05:10:52Z jasom: beach: I thought there was a complete implementation of CL in elisp now. 2016-10-26T05:11:14Z axion: I would have to get back to you on that, as those details are his idea. He has a lot of math with vector algebra for describing how that all will work. I just hopped onboard recently because we have worked together in the past, and it sounded interesting. 2016-10-26T05:11:40Z beach: jasom: That is possible. I think it would be slow though, given how Emacs Lisp is implemented. 2016-10-26T05:11:46Z jasom: indeed 2016-10-26T05:12:18Z beach: axion: Sure. Please keep me informed! 2016-10-26T05:12:55Z fouric: ^ 2016-10-26T05:13:03Z axion: Will do 2016-10-26T05:13:06Z fouric: :D 2016-10-26T05:14:08Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:14:11Z axion: No code has been written yet - we have been working for the past several months improving the OpenGL utility libraries that exist for CL to allow what we have planned. 2016-10-26T05:14:41Z axion: or I should say, what he has planned, because I know very little at this point. 2016-10-26T05:16:01Z beach: I see. 2016-10-26T05:16:42Z vento joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:16:57Z beach: Why is it essential to use OpenGL? 2016-10-26T05:17:47Z fouric: question: i'm working on a wrapper around a terminal-control library named termbox, and i want to implement conditions for when things go wrong. the problem is that termbox takes control of terminal i/o, so when a condition is encountered and the user goes into the debugger, output and input are both horribly mangled 2016-10-26T05:18:10Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:18:20Z fouric: ...how can i call the library shutdown code when a condition is encountered, and then let the condition "occur" normally? 2016-10-26T05:18:27Z safe joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:18:59Z fouric: (if that makes any sense) 2016-10-26T05:19:12Z axion: Mainly because both of us are enthusiastic about graphics programming, having worked on games and game libraries in CL for the last decade or so, and wishing we had a better editor. It is only natural to do it with GL. 2016-10-26T05:19:59Z beach: OK. 2016-10-26T05:20:25Z Bike: fouric: sounds like unwind-protect, if i understand what you want correctly. 2016-10-26T05:20:33Z fouric looks at clhs 2016-10-26T05:20:43Z Bike: fouric: like (unwind-protect (do stuff with termbox) (termbox:shutdown)) 2016-10-26T05:21:21Z fouric: and that would allow the condition to continue to...propagate? back up to the debugger or a handler? 2016-10-26T05:21:36Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:21:41Z Bike: yeah, it doesn't handle the condition. 2016-10-26T05:22:43Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-26T05:22:48Z Bike: oh, wait, maybe that won't work. if you want the library to shut down you'd have to destroy the dynamic environment... 2016-10-26T05:23:42Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:24:29Z fouric: well, in my case, all I need to do is call a single function that restores terminal i/o back to normal 2016-10-26T05:24:31Z fouric: ...which this does 2016-10-26T05:24:46Z Bike: maybe something like (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (termbox:shutdown)))) (do stuff)) 2016-10-26T05:24:57Z Bike: if it works than nevermind. 2016-10-26T05:25:03Z fouric: thanks! 2016-10-26T05:25:16Z fouric: now i just need to find where my stack frames went, but that seems like an easier problem 2016-10-26T05:28:20Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:30:40Z Jameser_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:31:43Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T05:32:16Z tessier joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:32:31Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-26T05:33:13Z tessier quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-26T05:33:28Z tessier joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:36:08Z rjid left #lisp 2016-10-26T05:37:05Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:37:28Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:37:48Z rjid: Good morning! 2016-10-26T05:39:35Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T05:41:41Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:42:17Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:42:18Z beach: Hello rjid. 2016-10-26T05:45:01Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-26T05:47:17Z beaky: ello 2016-10-26T05:47:51Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:47:58Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T05:51:57Z Rumbles: is this an appropriate irc for questions that need to be asked? 2016-10-26T05:52:48Z neuri8 quit (Quit: L) 2016-10-26T05:53:15Z beach: If they are related to Common Lisp, sure. 2016-10-26T05:54:02Z Rumbles: cool. I don't actually have any right now, but I was hoping to find an appropriate place for them 2016-10-26T05:54:18Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:55:11Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:57:05Z Jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-26T05:57:40Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-26T05:57:57Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-26T05:58:32Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T06:01:38Z Jameser quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-26T06:02:20Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-26T06:03:24Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:04:10Z akkad: here is good. #clnoobs is great too for new stuff 2016-10-26T06:05:18Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-26T06:07:51Z Jameser quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-26T06:09:55Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T06:10:09Z alienbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T06:10:35Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:18:06Z arduo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T06:19:18Z Orion3k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T06:19:29Z beach left #lisp 2016-10-26T06:25:17Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:25:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:25:41Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-26T06:26:07Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T06:28:00Z beaky: nice i love seeing other people like me new to lisp 2016-10-26T06:30:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T06:30:19Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:32:03Z Rumbles: ooh hello 2016-10-26T06:32:38Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:32:54Z Rumbles: idk how new i am since its been a few months 2016-10-26T06:33:10Z Rumbles: but i only just learned how to grab source from my debugger so ;; 2016-10-26T06:33:21Z Rumbles: pretty new 2016-10-26T06:35:12Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T06:35:39Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-26T06:36:02Z Rumbles left #lisp 2016-10-26T06:36:05Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:37:56Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T06:39:13Z akkad fights to get sbcl to gc https://gist.github.com/21d0f253347214f2f44173d4815c971a 2016-10-26T06:40:16Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:40:41Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:40:48Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T06:40:55Z Rumbles: code? 2016-10-26T06:41:24Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:41:39Z akkad: #+sbcl (sb-ext:gc :full t) 2016-10-26T06:41:39Z akkad: 2016-10-26T06:42:17Z Rumbles: ....i actually meant the code that upon execution fills it up with so much garbage 2016-10-26T06:42:23Z Rumbles: but ty 2016-10-26T06:43:33Z trueneu joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:43:41Z akkad: nice one. 2016-10-26T06:45:39Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T06:46:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:47:23Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-26T06:48:37Z Rumbles: ? 2016-10-26T06:48:52Z Rumbles: i like to try and read other people's code when i can 2016-10-26T06:50:45Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:52:08Z akkad: yeah well its not always an option when its 1500 loc + ql libs 2016-10-26T06:52:22Z Rumbles: ah okay 2016-10-26T06:52:37Z Rumbles: increase the dynamic memory space on startup? 2016-10-26T06:52:51Z akkad: the issue i have is on every other implementation the rss never approaches 2g 2016-10-26T06:53:01Z akkad: and i upped dynamic memory to 40GB 2016-10-26T06:53:06Z akkad: still would spiral 2016-10-26T06:53:37Z akkad: some uncaught error I suspect is happening in a thread resulting in an immediate allocation frenzy and panic 2016-10-26T06:54:25Z Rumbles: hm okay 2016-10-26T06:54:34Z Rumbles: did u look at the gc numbers? 2016-10-26T06:54:35Z akkad: ccl/allegro/lw/cmucl never allocate more than 1gb rss max 2016-10-26T06:54:52Z akkad: yeah i'm trying to find docs on the meanings 2016-10-26T06:55:10Z Rumbles: it seems to have alloc 893mb and its asking for 260mb but only getting 150ish 2016-10-26T06:55:28Z Rumbles: the numbers should be in bytes i think 2016-10-26T06:55:37Z akkad: yeah 2048 is the dynamic size. it happens in a sudden spike after runnung for like 4 mins 2016-10-26T06:55:55Z akkad: just climbs straight up after bouncing around as it should 2016-10-26T06:56:07Z akkad: like within a couple of secs in top 2016-10-26T06:56:20Z Rumbles: does top agree with the gc? 2016-10-26T06:56:25Z akkad: yeah 2016-10-26T06:56:46Z Rumbles: are you able to recompile the libs? 2016-10-26T06:56:47Z akkad: it clearly goes from ~200mb to 1.89g rather fast, but 2016-10-26T06:56:51Z Rumbles: like with safety 3? 2016-10-26T06:57:04Z akkad: I think I have that will double check 2016-10-26T06:57:27Z Rumbles: wait top reports 2 gigs? the gc u posted has 900mb 2016-10-26T06:57:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-26T06:57:38Z akkad: 1.89G 2016-10-26T06:58:13Z rjid left #lisp 2016-10-26T06:58:20Z Rumbles: ah nvm i didnt check the total right 2016-10-26T07:00:50Z akkad: hmm commented out 2016-10-26T07:02:44Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-26T07:02:56Z Rumbles: put debug 3 in too and see if that or safety throws the error properly 2016-10-26T07:03:33Z akkad: https://github.com/ober/metis warning it's poorly written code 2016-10-26T07:07:15Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-26T07:07:22Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-26T07:07:30Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-26T07:08:08Z Rumbles: i'll keep that in mind then 2016-10-26T07:08:19Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T07:09:17Z akkad: been trying to profile alloc on sbcl to see what garbage is not being cleaned up 2016-10-26T07:13:26Z Vicfred joined #lisp 2016-10-26T07:16:16Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T07:18:58Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T07:20:47Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-26T07:22:20Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-26T07:26:49Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T07:27:12Z vento quit (Quit: Connection 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The documentation says "List of strings containing environment bindings", which I take to mean '("A1=b1" "A2=b2") [some other CL implementations use that, too, while some use alists] 2016-10-26T10:59:40Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:00:04Z pipping: jackdaniel: but (ext:run-program "env" nil :output t :environ (list "A=b")) gives me the rather cryptic 'In EXT:RUN-PROGRAM, environment is not a list of base strings' 2016-10-26T11:00:04Z NitroWheels quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T11:00:29Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:01:10Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T11:01:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:02:04Z pipping: jackdaniel: it's worth noting that that condition appears to leave ECL in a state where I cannot select a restart anymore, (quit) has no effect, etc. 2016-10-26T11:02:25Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-26T11:03:36Z jackdaniel: pipping: could you make an issue on gitlab? 2016-10-26T11:04:40Z jackdaniel: (ext:run-program "env" nil :output t :environ (list (coerce 'base-string "A=b"))) ; should work 2016-10-26T11:04:59Z jackdaniel: but run-program should try to do the coercion, so if you make the issue, please include that problem as well 2016-10-26T11:06:33Z pipping: hmm. right. It seems (ext:run-program "/usr/bin/env" nil :output t :environ (list (coerce "A=b" 'base-string))) does indeed work 2016-10-26T11:07:38Z pipping: except its result is very counter-intuitive because ':environ nil' gives you the default environment while the above replaces the entire environment with a singleton (in particular, I have to use /usr/bin/env because PATH is empty) 2016-10-26T11:09:25Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T11:11:45Z jackdaniel: why is it counter intuitive? default is inherited, but you may specify what environment should be explicitly 2016-10-26T11:12:03Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:14:03Z pipping: it's counter-intuitive because if :environ expects a complete environment rather than something to add to the default, I would expect an explicit `:environ nil` to give me an empty environment. 2016-10-26T11:14:08Z pipping: I've turned this into https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/298 now 2016-10-26T11:14:12Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:15:43Z jackdaniel: thanks 2016-10-26T11:16:16Z pipping: Note that I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with making the argument to :environ something absolute. 2016-10-26T11:16:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T11:16:31Z hzp joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:17:23Z pipping: e.g. cmucl's (ext:run-program "env" nil :output t :env (list (cons 'KEY "value"))) gives you just KEY=value but that's consistent with (ext:run-program "env" nil :output t :env nil) giving you an empty environment 2016-10-26T11:17:27Z jackdaniel: yes, when I'll get to it (probably nowhere soon), I'll make environ default to :default, nil will create empty env 2016-10-26T11:18:20Z pipping: while ccl's (ccl:run-program "env" nil :output t :env (list (cons "KEY" "value"))) and (ccl:run-program "env" nil :output t :env nil) give you the default plus "KEY=value" and the default, respectively. 2016-10-26T11:19:23Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:19:52Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T11:30:50Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:32:20Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T11:32:35Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:39:24Z jdz: pipping: out of curiosity, how does one specify an empty environment in clisp, then? 2016-10-26T11:40:35Z pipping: jdz: do you mean ccl rather than clisp? 2016-10-26T11:40:45Z jdz: pipping: right, yes. 2016-10-26T11:40:54Z pipping: jdz: I'm afraid I don't think that's possible 2016-10-26T11:41:41Z pipping: jdz: although you could easily work around that by turning your command "cmd" into "/usr/bin/env -i cmd" 2016-10-26T11:43:19Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:44:10Z jdz: Yes, looking at the source code it appears ccl does not support this feature. 2016-10-26T11:44:34Z blackwolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T11:45:00Z jdz: (It just iterates over the given list and sets the values using SETENV.) 2016-10-26T11:45:51Z pipping: after forking, I take it 2016-10-26T11:46:45Z klltkr`` left #lisp 2016-10-26T11:48:34Z jdz: Yes. 2016-10-26T11:50:59Z pipping: jdz: this seems to be true for allegro cl's run-shell-command, too. 2016-10-26T11:51:48Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-10-26T11:53:34Z harish quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-10-26T11:53:59Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:55:45Z trebor_h` joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:57:16Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-26T11:57:58Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T11:58:32Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-26T11:58:32Z trebor_home quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T11:58:52Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:01:12Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:01:47Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-26T12:02:49Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T12:04:20Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:05:17Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-26T12:09:48Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:09:51Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:10:31Z pipping: also, interestingly, when the lispworks documentation says "An alist of strings naming environment variables and values", it apparently has '(("KEY" "value")) is mind (not the missing dot). Not sure why 2016-10-26T12:10:45Z pipping: in* 2016-10-26T12:11:53Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:19:11Z nopf quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-26T12:23:00Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T12:24:00Z nopf joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:24:16Z freehck quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2016-10-26T12:25:17Z Ioann quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-26T12:25:25Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:31:16Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:35:17Z MrHackit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T12:35:41Z beaky: hello 2016-10-26T12:36:43Z beaky: how did paul graham make his continuiatons-based webapp in common lisp without call/cc 2016-10-26T12:37:02Z beaky: (wont an implementation without call/cc eventually cause the stack to blowout) 2016-10-26T12:37:09Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-26T12:37:29Z jackdaniel: idk if (and how) he did it, but continuations may be emulated in cl 2016-10-26T12:37:31Z jackdaniel: see cl-cont 2016-10-26T12:37:34Z jackdaniel: also weblocks 2016-10-26T12:38:29Z Xach_: beaky: his app had tens of users 2016-10-26T12:38:52Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:39:39Z cpape quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T12:39:48Z mood: CLX contains a file extensions/randr.lisp, but it doesn't appear to actually be loaded... 2016-10-26T12:39:54Z cpape joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:40:25Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T12:41:16Z Xach_: beaky: I don't know what strategy was ultimately used, but on a followup project, "continuation" closures just expired after a while. 2016-10-26T12:42:34Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T12:42:41Z abbe joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:44:19Z shrdlu68: How do I declare vars ignorable at the beginning of a progv block? 2016-10-26T12:44:28Z pipping: mood: the name 'extensions' suggests that not everyone might want to load it but that you can if you want to 2016-10-26T12:44:28Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T12:45:00Z mood: pipping: Well, the only instances of "randr" anywhere are in that file. There's not asdf system for it or anything 2016-10-26T12:45:51Z mood: From what I gather, extensions can just be loaded in without the server having to support them 2016-10-26T12:46:05Z xantoz joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:46:49Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:51:24Z mood: The extension isn't in a good state. It exports several names of functions that are commented out 2016-10-26T12:51:36Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:52:29Z shrdlu68: Do I need to wrap the progv block in a lexical context? 2016-10-26T12:52:44Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T12:52:58Z shrdlu68: (let (foo bar...(progv '(foo bar)... 2016-10-26T12:53:18Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T12:53:52Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:56:30Z MrHackit joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:57:11Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T12:57:55Z Xach_: shrdlu68: why do you want to do that? 2016-10-26T12:58:03Z Xach_: shrdlu68: why do you want to declare them ignorable, that is 2016-10-26T12:58:23Z prole left #lisp 2016-10-26T13:00:17Z shrdlu68: I get warnings about undeclared vars. 2016-10-26T13:00:47Z Xach_: shrdlu68: That is a problem about using a variable that is not declared, not not-using a variable that is. 2016-10-26T13:00:56Z Xach_: shrdlu68: Can you paste the code on paste.lisp.org? 2016-10-26T13:02:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:03:48Z shrdlu68: Xach_: Okay. 2016-10-26T13:05:56Z shrdlu68: Xach_: http://paste.lisp.org/+72D1 2016-10-26T13:08:23Z Xach_: shrdlu68: I don't think there's any sensible way to proceed with progv. I think you should back up and use a different approach. 2016-10-26T13:08:31Z raydeejay: declare is for talking about already existing things 2016-10-26T13:09:06Z shrdlu68: Xach_: Thought so too, just that progv is so convenient when you have a list of symbols and objects. 2016-10-26T13:09:47Z Xach_: Your situation is a very bad fit for progv. 2016-10-26T13:10:42Z Xach_: There are many other options, but they all involve some restructuring and rethinking. 2016-10-26T13:11:14Z Glitchy: Is there a better uuid library than uuid? 2016-10-26T13:11:32Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:11:32Z Glitchy: (preferably one that can a. create strings and b. validate uuids) 2016-10-26T13:11:34Z Xach_: One option would be to recondition the list so that all common elements appear first, followed by optional elements, possibly preceded by keywords. You could then destructuring-bind that list. 2016-10-26T13:12:48Z trebor_h` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T13:12:54Z Xach_: You already condition it a bit by removing the UniqueIdentifier thing. 2016-10-26T13:13:50Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T13:14:09Z shrdlu68: Xach_: Destructuring-bind sounds like a better idea. 2016-10-26T13:14:55Z harish joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:16:13Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:20:19Z freehck joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:20:28Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T13:21:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:21:34Z dlowe: I have to say, progv is for when you're backed into a corner by legacy code. 2016-10-26T13:22:33Z aerique quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T13:23:04Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T13:24:06Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T13:25:31Z Grue`: it's good if you have a bunch of global dynamic variables that need to be bound simultaneously. creating a kind of "contained environment" for stuff inside of it 2016-10-26T13:27:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T13:27:29Z dlowe: thats just a description of what it does :p 2016-10-26T13:28:19Z dlowe: needing such a thing is a design smell and you should go home and think about your life choices. 2016-10-26T13:28:46Z dlowe: that said, I used it in my job once. 2016-10-26T13:29:04Z dlowe: and though I went home and thought about how my life had come to this, it was probably the right thing to do. 2016-10-26T13:31:00Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T13:31:05Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:31:32Z razzy89___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T13:31:41Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:32:12Z razzy89___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T13:32:20Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:32:39Z Grue`: it all comes down to global variables being bad 2016-10-26T13:32:46Z razzy89___ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T13:32:46Z Grue`: even the standard library has enough global dynamic variables for it to be useful though. like all the *print- ones, progv makes it possible to create a macro that sets groups of print settings at once 2016-10-26T13:32:57Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:33:25Z razzy89___ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T13:33:34Z dlowe: you can do that with LET 2016-10-26T13:33:40Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:34:05Z razzy89___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T13:34:14Z dlowe: it's for when you can't predict the special variables you are going to need because they're part of your inputs 2016-10-26T13:34:17Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:34:47Z razzy89___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T13:35:31Z Grue`: not dynamically. imagine sort of definable "contexts", like (with-context :print-numbers-in-base16 ...) and it sets whatever is needed based on the definition 2016-10-26T13:36:20Z dlowe: you can still do that with a macro and LET 2016-10-26T13:37:00Z Xach_: Hmm, is there a portability library that has compare-and-swap stuff? 2016-10-26T13:37:03Z Xach_ tries quickdocs 2016-10-26T13:38:01Z Grue`: ah, but then redefining the context would require recompiling all the code that relies on the context 2016-10-26T13:38:42Z pipping: Xach_: chanl has trivial-compare-and-swap 2016-10-26T13:39:03Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:39:09Z dlowe: Grue`: no? The print settings are dynamically bound. 2016-10-26T13:39:34Z Xach_: pipping: thanks 2016-10-26T13:39:40Z pipping: Xach_: there's also https://github.com/cbaggers/Indy but I didn't see any reason to adopt that instead of chanl 2016-10-26T13:40:04Z pipping: (it's essentially a copy) 2016-10-26T13:41:10Z Xach_: Hmm, chanl has some other stuff that will be useful, like atomic-incf. Thanks very much, pipping! 2016-10-26T13:41:10Z Grue`: if they're bound with macro that expands to LET, the bindings are fixed until the code is recompiled 2016-10-26T13:41:40Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T13:41:57Z dlowe: (defmacro (with-print-context (contexts &body body) `(let (,@(loop for context in contexts collect (cdr (assoc context '((:print-numbers-in-base-16 . (*print-radix* 16))))) ,@(rest body))) 2016-10-26T13:42:24Z dlowe: (with-context (:print-numbers-in-base-16) ...) => (let ((*print-radix* 16)) ...) 2016-10-26T13:42:37Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-26T13:43:56Z dlowe: if you're passing in a static form like a keyword symbol, then they would be fixed until the code is recompiled anyway 2016-10-26T13:44:58Z Grue`: with progv I can redefine the context at runtime, and all instances of the macro will work with the new definition without recompiling 2016-10-26T13:46:06Z dlowe: you had better show me with a bit of code, because I don't understand what you're saying at all. 2016-10-26T13:46:20Z flip214: clhs progv 2016-10-26T13:46:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 2016-10-26T13:46:40Z flip214: dlowe: progv ^^ takes lists of variables and values and does _runtime_ binding of these 2016-10-26T13:46:49Z dlowe: flip214: I know what progv does 2016-10-26T13:47:20Z dlowe: I was the unfortunate who brought up progv in the first place, yesterday. 2016-10-26T13:49:01Z Grue`: then the difference between expanding to LET and expanding to PROGV should be clear: the later allows to change the set of variables at runtime without having to re-expand the macro 2016-10-26T13:50:39Z dlowe: okay. how? 2016-10-26T13:50:49Z dlowe: it's not clear. 2016-10-26T13:50:51Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:51:55Z Grue`: https://github.com/tshatrov/ichiran/blob/master/conn.lisp#L35 2016-10-26T13:52:54Z Grue`: the code sucks but it does work 2016-10-26T13:53:55Z shrdlu68: progv worked fine in my case, except there was no way to turn off the compiler warnings about undefined variables. (I don't know about performance penalties and such, but it worked.) 2016-10-26T13:54:05Z dlowe: yeah, right before you posted that, I realized you could use a hash table in runtime to set it up. 2016-10-26T13:54:10Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:54:20Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:54:22Z Grue`: shrdlu68: in your case there wasn't any need for dynamic variables at all 2016-10-26T13:54:33Z shrdlu68: Grue`: That too. 2016-10-26T13:55:21Z dlowe: The code example has not convinced me that progv isn't awful, though. 2016-10-26T13:57:44Z raydeejay scratches head 2016-10-26T13:57:46Z raydeejay: shouldn't those symbols in the (declare (ignorable ...)) in http://paste.lisp.org/+72D1 be defined before that point? 2016-10-26T13:58:10Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-26T13:59:58Z shrdlu68: raydeejay: That's an error as it is since the variables are not visible at that point. 2016-10-26T14:00:34Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:00:44Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T14:04:49Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T14:07:29Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:07:33Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T14:08:05Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-26T14:10:12Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T14:18:19Z deleuz is now known as derrida 2016-10-26T14:18:20Z derrida quit (Changing host) 2016-10-26T14:18:20Z derrida joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:23:53Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:27:40Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:30:17Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-26T14:30:44Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:31:58Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:34:10Z Ioann quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T14:38:40Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T14:38:57Z ak5 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-26T14:40:23Z dwts joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:41:19Z dwts: hello guys, quick question: Which is the best library for regex in common lisp? I see those listed here: http://www.cliki.net/regular%20expression 2016-10-26T14:41:36Z mood: dwts: CL-PPCRE 2016-10-26T14:42:15Z dwts: mood: thank you 2016-10-26T14:43:11Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-26T14:45:48Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:51:02Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:53:08Z jcowan joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:54:24Z stardiviner quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-26T14:54:45Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:55:05Z jcowan: moin moin 2016-10-26T14:55:47Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-26T14:56:15Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:57:50Z pipping: given that the key lesson from writing a proper grep (just quoting here; never wrote one myself) seems to be "don't read line by line", I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible to beat cl-ppcre in terms of performance by orders of magnitude in quite a few common cases. 2016-10-26T14:57:56Z pipping: s/proper/fast/ 2016-10-26T14:58:08Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T14:59:13Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T14:59:35Z dwts: i read proper as power 2016-10-26T14:59:44Z dwts: you know, powergrep that windows tool :P 2016-10-26T15:05:27Z rumbler31 quit 2016-10-26T15:05:50Z pipping doesn't know anything that starts with windows :P 2016-10-26T15:06:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:06:59Z mood: pipping: Another way to speed it up massively would be to only support actual *regular* expressions, instead of being Perl-compatible 2016-10-26T15:08:04Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:08:23Z heurist`_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:09:45Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:10:06Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:10:32Z flip214: well, it would help a bit if simple-base-strings would be supported in cl-ppcre 2016-10-26T15:10:47Z pipping: mood: I don't think you can call pcre by itself slow. it can be very slow for certain input but not because of its extensions of regular expressions, rather the fact that it does backtracking. you can do away with that but then you'll be slow on other input. 2016-10-26T15:11:10Z flip214: and/or if there was a way to build a (big) form as one thing that can be holistically analyzed and optimized 2016-10-26T15:11:16Z pipping: mood: If you haven't read it yet, I can recommend http://blog.burntsushi.net/ripgrep/ 2016-10-26T15:11:27Z flip214: currently the work's being split up across many closures 2016-10-26T15:11:49Z trueneu quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-26T15:11:54Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-10-26T15:12:02Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-26T15:12:38Z Grue`: stuff like "\\s+$" can be optimized for sure, some regex implementations don't do backtracking in such cases, but CL-PPCRE can easily be stumped by this 2016-10-26T15:12:39Z mood: pipping: I have read that, it's great. I don't think getting rid of backtracking would cause slowness on other input, it would just mean a loss of features 2016-10-26T15:13:36Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:13:59Z Grue`: relevant: http://stackstatus.net/post/147710624694/outage-postmortem-july-20-2016 2016-10-26T15:14:55Z pipping: mood: I'm referring to the quote "It’s worth pointing out that neither type of engine has a monopoly on average case performance". You do away with the exponential cases, which is good if you're accepting regular expressions from the outside world and don't want your server to go down. But for non-exponential (i.e. linear) cases a non-backtracking regex engine will not generally be faster than a backtracking 2016-10-26T15:14:56Z pipping: one. 2016-10-26T15:15:18Z rjid left #lisp 2016-10-26T15:15:28Z heurist`_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:15:47Z flip214: Grue`: that wasn't even cl-ppcre, as far as we know ;) 2016-10-26T15:16:02Z Grue`: no, but cl-ppcre has the same behavior 2016-10-26T15:17:05Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:17:46Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:18:31Z heurist`_` joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:19:52Z heurist_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:20:14Z drmeister: If a macro needs a function at macroexpansion time one wraps the DEFUN for the function in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (defun ...)) - correct? 2016-10-26T15:20:40Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:21:02Z drmeister: I guess I could use a local function as well. 2016-10-26T15:21:06Z Xach_: drmeister: :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute 2016-10-26T15:21:18Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:21:21Z Xach_: drmeister: OR put the function in a file processed before the macro's file. 2016-10-26T15:21:38Z pipping: drmeister: http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html 2016-10-26T15:21:58Z drmeister: Ok - thanks. I'm implementing DEFCALLBACK - it's forcing me to think along lines I haven't thought much yet. 2016-10-26T15:22:24Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:23:01Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:25:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:26:58Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:27:49Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:29:01Z pierpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T15:29:55Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:33:13Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:36:07Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:36:43Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:38:56Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:39:27Z drmeister: pipping: Thanks. 2016-10-26T15:41:47Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-26T15:42:41Z drmeister: Question about macro hygiene: I'm writing a big macro (DEFCALLBACK) that should only be invoked at the top level. It contains several LET and LET* - do all lexical variables need to be GENSYMd? 2016-10-26T15:43:51Z flip214: drmeister: not if there's no user code (BODY) to interfere within them. 2016-10-26T15:44:07Z flip214: (LET ((counter 0)) (LAMBDA () (incf counter))) 2016-10-26T15:44:23Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:44:29Z flip214: is perfectly fine, no one's going to see the variable name even 2016-10-26T15:45:21Z drmeister: Ah -there is a body - thank you 2016-10-26T15:46:18Z woe` joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:46:49Z flip214: specials that get rebound within the macro (*READTABLE*, *PRINT-PRETTY*, etc.) wouldn't get GENSYMmed, too 2016-10-26T15:47:04Z drmeister: Right 2016-10-26T15:47:39Z drmeister: It's been a while since I wrote a complicated macro. 2016-10-26T15:48:38Z sake quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:49:21Z razzy89 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:49:58Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:50:17Z woe` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T15:50:23Z sake joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:51:19Z razzy89___ left #lisp 2016-10-26T15:52:08Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:52:49Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:53:59Z flacko joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:56:01Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-26T15:59:41Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T15:59:52Z heurist__ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:01:00Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:01:31Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:02:48Z heurist`_` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-26T16:04:52Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-26T16:04:54Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-26T16:06:29Z younder_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:07:15Z ggole__ quit 2016-10-26T16:07:21Z younder_ quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-10-26T16:09:31Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-26T16:10:12Z seg joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:13:28Z Vicfred quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T16:13:48Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:22:43Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:25:32Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:26:20Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-26T16:26:20Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:28:53Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:29:46Z pierpa: Someone could declare COUNTER special and you are screwed. 2016-10-26T16:32:02Z MetaHertz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T16:38:25Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-26T16:44:13Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:46:02Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:46:05Z razzy89: Hi, I would like to ask a question. 2016-10-26T16:46:53Z pierpa: then ask it 2016-10-26T16:46:58Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:47:17Z razzy89: Is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnWVu8VVDbI good combination of lisp and interpreter for neural networks? 2016-10-26T16:47:41Z pierpa: can you say what lisp it is without having to watch a video? 2016-10-26T16:47:43Z razzy89: sbcl, emacs, slime 2016-10-26T16:47:59Z pierpa: ok. I'd say it is a good combination. 2016-10-26T16:48:42Z razzy89: thanks 2016-10-26T16:49:37Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T16:49:52Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:54:28Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T16:55:15Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:56:58Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-26T16:57:11Z sebboh` is now known as sebboh 2016-10-26T16:57:25Z sebboh quit (Changing host) 2016-10-26T16:57:25Z sebboh joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:57:46Z sebboh: hi all 2016-10-26T16:59:28Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:59:46Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-26T16:59:50Z sebboh: See this line? https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-graph/blob/master/dev/graphviz/graphviz-support.lisp#L518 I'm using slime... Where does stdout end up? I'd like to read it. 2016-10-26T16:59:52Z pipping: drmeister: did the building procedure of clasp change? I get 'Please provide the required config for the build; see the wscript.config.template file.' 2016-10-26T16:59:55Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T17:00:47Z drmeister: pipping: Yes, we've switched from a make based build system to 'waf'. 2016-10-26T17:00:55Z drmeister: It should be described in the readme - checking.. 2016-10-26T17:01:22Z pipping: drmeister: but you've been waf for ages now. I last built clasp mid-september and then things still worked for me 2016-10-26T17:01:29Z pipping: +using 2016-10-26T17:01:58Z drmeister: We've been moving further and in the last week eliminated the requirement for the top level makefile. 2016-10-26T17:02:30Z pipping sighs 2016-10-26T17:02:49Z drmeister: The heavy lifting has been done by attilla and mood - I have been working on other things. 2016-10-26T17:03:01Z drmeister: Yes, sorry - but it will be better. 2016-10-26T17:03:21Z Bike: well, you had to edit a config file before anyway, just a different one 2016-10-26T17:03:25Z drmeister: The configuration file is now called wscript.local - I need to update the README.md it looks like. 2016-10-26T17:03:42Z pipping: Bike: nope, I didn't 2016-10-26T17:03:53Z Lord_of_Life quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T17:03:53Z pipping: Bike: this still worked mid-september: https://github.com/pipping/docker-clasp/blob/dev/Dockerfile 2016-10-26T17:04:03Z drmeister: It's a bit unfortunate that the name changed. Maybe we can change it back now. 2016-10-26T17:04:13Z drmeister: The format changed and then it changed back to look like the old format. 2016-10-26T17:04:17Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2016-10-26T17:04:18Z Bike: well, i did. 2016-10-26T17:04:42Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:04:52Z drmeister: It changed from makefile code to python code to python code that looks close enough like makefile code that we should be able to keep the name. 2016-10-26T17:04:54Z Bike: to tell it where externals-clasp is. which is all you have to do now too, probably 2016-10-26T17:04:56Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:05:25Z drmeister: Right - that's all it's for if you don't do anything else unusual. 2016-10-26T17:05:46Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:06:22Z pipping: so. there /is/ a makefile and I /do/ pass the correct EXTERNALS_CLASP_DIR. Does that mean the makefile is broken or is the makefile not supposed to work anymore anyway and should thus be removed? 2016-10-26T17:06:43Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T17:08:38Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T17:12:46Z Bike: i think you're not supposed to use make any more, yeah 2016-10-26T17:15:56Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T17:16:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:17:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:18:01Z pipping: *cough* for future reference you might want to point people like me at https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/wiki/Clasp-0.5-Build-Instructions#linux :P 2016-10-26T17:19:31Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:19:53Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:21:42Z NitroWheels quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T17:22:06Z NitroWheels joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:22:28Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T17:23:55Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-26T17:25:42Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T17:26:12Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-26T17:27:27Z flacko quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2016-10-26T17:27:42Z flacko joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:30:20Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:33:03Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:35:49Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:37:20Z Grue` joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:38:16Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T17:38:48Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T17:42:23Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:43:53Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:44:20Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T17:44:50Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:45:43Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:48:58Z lain1 is now known as zwwwdr 2016-10-26T17:49:14Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-26T17:49:56Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:51:57Z NitroWheels_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:55:35Z NitroWheels quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-26T17:56:37Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-26T17:56:49Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-26T17:57:26Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T17:57:27Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:01:13Z ski quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T18:02:40Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-26T18:06:35Z NitroWheels_ quit (Quit: Quitting: 6502 is calling me) 2016-10-26T18:09:44Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:12:42Z drmeister: pipping: Noted. Things are still under construction. 2016-10-26T18:13:01Z pipping: well, the good news is it's building :) 2016-10-26T18:13:05Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:13:07Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:13:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:19:26Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T18:20:54Z zeissoctopus joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:22:38Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T18:26:45Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-26T18:28:34Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:30:34Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:34:02Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:38:23Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:38:42Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:44:55Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-26T18:47:26Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:48:34Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:49:35Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:50:12Z Ioann quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-26T18:50:50Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:51:05Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T18:51:50Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:52:46Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-26T18:53:24Z drmeister: Yes and Bike got type inference working and inlining is working better 2016-10-26T18:54:29Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-26T18:55:02Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-26T18:56:54Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:00:42Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:04:35Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T19:06:04Z Ioann quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T19:07:15Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T19:08:23Z arrdem quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-26T19:08:33Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T19:08:47Z arrdem joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:13:14Z warweasle quit (Quit: gone) 2016-10-26T19:13:23Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:18:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:20:13Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:20:28Z trystero joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:20:48Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:21:37Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-26T19:21:45Z bluezone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T19:22:45Z tristero quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-26T19:23:20Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-26T19:23:35Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:24:07Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-26T19:26:00Z Ioann quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T19:27:47Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:33:03Z trystero is now known as tristero 2016-10-26T19:33:51Z Tahr64-user joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:35:00Z Tahr64-user quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-26T19:41:38Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-26T19:46:57Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T19:49:24Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T20:02:41Z yoosi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T20:03:11Z yoosi joined #lisp 2016-10-26T20:06:06Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-26T20:10:45Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-26T20:11:19Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-26T20:12:45Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T20:15:06Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-10-26T20:15:07Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2016-10-26T20:15:07Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-10-26T20:15:07Z kruhft joined #lisp 2016-10-26T20:15:31Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T20:18:09Z akkad: how is clasp doing these days? 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The effect is that Common Lisp makes no guarantee that eq is true even when both its arguments are ``the same thing'' if that thing is a character or number. " 2016-10-26T22:11:51Z Rumbles: eq compares if the vars point to the same spot in memory 2016-10-26T22:12:07Z Rumbles: equal is for seeing if whatever they point to are the same 2016-10-26T22:12:10Z Rumbles: yes? 2016-10-26T22:13:50Z shrdlu68: Rumbles: Roughly, yes. 2016-10-26T22:14:24Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-26T22:15:22Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T22:16:06Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-26T22:21:18Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-26T22:24:51Z shrdlu68: If foo is an array, (setf bar foo) makes bar point to the same place. 2016-10-26T22:26:16Z shrdlu68: This is not so for integers. Why? 2016-10-26T22:27:57Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T22:30:17Z shrdlu68: The same holds for hash tables and lists too. 2016-10-26T22:31:11Z jcowan: shrdlu68: It's a mistake to think of Lisp as having pointers. Some things are implemented under the table with pointers, but there are no pointers as such. 2016-10-26T22:31:37Z jcowan: (setf bar foo) causes the variable bar to hold the same object (in the sense of eql) as the variable foo. 2016-10-26T22:32:09Z jcowan: Eql is Lisp's identity predicate; eq is a fast hack that occasionally discriminates between otherwise identical objects. 2016-10-26T22:32:25Z jcowan: Rumbles: ^^ 2016-10-26T22:32:44Z Rumbles: hm 2016-10-26T22:32:51Z shrdlu68: But modifying bar also modifies foo in some cases. 2016-10-26T22:32:59Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-26T22:33:59Z jcowan: That's because the values of foo and bar are the same object, so if that object is mutable, then mutating it will affect how it's seen either through foo or through bar. 2016-10-26T22:34:15Z jcowan: Numbers and characters are immutable, which means that they can be copied if the implementation decides to do so. 2016-10-26T22:35:22Z shrdlu68: jcowan: Ah, what else is immutable? 2016-10-26T22:35:26Z npatrick04 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-26T22:35:28Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-26T22:36:56Z jcowan: A struct all of whose slots are read-only. But the definition of eql was set long before structs were added to Lisp, so it is not treated specially. 2016-10-26T22:37:26Z jcowan: Calling the constructor of such a struct always returns an object that is distinct (in the sense of eq and eql) from any other object. 2016-10-26T22:38:07Z shrdlu68: clhs eq: Returns true if its arguments are the same, identical object; otherwise, returns false. 2016-10-26T22:39:11Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-26T22:39:28Z shrdlu68: Except for characters and numbers. 2016-10-26T22:40:03Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-10-26T22:41:11Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-26T22:41:52Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-26T22:41:57Z jcowan: That definition is circular, because "identical" means "the same in the sense of eq" (see clhs glossary) 2016-10-26T22:42:47Z jcowan: In practice, two objects are eql if a mutation of one causes the same mutation of the other, and eql objects are eq unless they are numbers or characters, in which case they may or may not be eq. 2016-10-26T22:43:09Z jcowan: Also, if you put an object in a container such as an array or cons, what you get back is eql to the original object. 2016-10-26T22:43:53Z jcowan: e.g. if I put a 5 into a numeric array, the 5 I get back may or may not be eq to the original 5, but definitely will be eql. 2016-10-26T22:44:21Z jcowan: s/is eql/is guaranteed to be eql/ 2016-10-26T22:44:29Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T22:47:14Z shrdlu68: Is there a way to say "make a copy if this object"? 2016-10-26T22:47:58Z shrdlu68: For instance for arrays. Or would one have to copy it manually via, say, subseq? 2016-10-26T22:48:14Z White_Flame: there isn't a generic copy for any object type 2016-10-26T22:48:39Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-26T22:48:47Z White_Flame: there's copy-tree for lists, subseq or whatever should be fine for arrays 2016-10-26T22:49:11Z White_Flame: copy-structure, etc 2016-10-26T22:52:08Z shrdlu68: cool 2016-10-26T22:52:37Z axion: copy-seq for any sequence 2016-10-26T22:53:06Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-26T22:53:37Z White_Flame: (any "proper sequence", ie no dotted lists) 2016-10-26T22:54:17Z axion: there is copy-alist for that i believe 2016-10-26T22:54:29Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-26T23:01:23Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T23:03:27Z zeissoctopus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-26T23:09:39Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-26T23:13:04Z raydeejay: I perpetrated this http://paste.lisp.org/+72E2 but as the comment says, I'm unsure of how to finish 2016-10-26T23:13:37Z raydeejay: the let works fine, but I'd like to do something like (with-blocks [a b | (print (+ a b))]) 2016-10-26T23:17:39Z anunnaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-26T23:17:40Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-26T23:22:14Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-26T23:25:08Z JoshYoshi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-26T23:27:07Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-26T23:36:53Z pierpa: raydeejay: I have a block reader like yours. Once upon a time it worked. Let me try it... 2016-10-26T23:39:12Z raydeejay: pierpa, http://paste.lisp.org/display/329690#2 :D 2016-10-26T23:40:17Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-10-26T23:40:21Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-26T23:40:29Z raydeejay: you can't remove |'s special meaning, right? or at the very least it's not a good idea? 2016-10-26T23:41:37Z pierpa: and here's mine https://bpaste.net/show/3ffe35640112 2016-10-26T23:41:42Z pierpa: apparently it still wrks 2016-10-26T23:42:21Z raydeejay: oh, right, I get passed the stream... 2016-10-26T23:42:32Z pierpa: even if it originally was scratched on a soft rock with a dinosaur bone 2016-10-26T23:43:04Z pierpa: SCRATCH> '[a | (print a)] ==> (LAMBDA (A) (PRINT A)) 2016-10-26T23:43:06Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-26T23:43:31Z pierpa: probably has uncountable flaws... 2016-10-26T23:44:53Z raydeejay: I guess you probably shouldn't use strings 2016-10-26T23:45:56Z pierpa: sigh. right. in reading the body I should have used READ instead of READ-CHAR 2016-10-26T23:47:04Z pierpa: nope. hmmm 2016-10-26T23:47:12Z raydeejay: on the other hand you don't have problems to read | 2016-10-26T23:47:19Z pierpa: yes 2016-10-26T23:48:10Z pierpa: reading as a string is ok for the vars, but not for the body 2016-10-26T23:51:21Z raydeejay: well... I guess that || is not THAT bad :) 2016-10-26T23:52:44Z kori joined #lisp 2016-10-26T23:53:00Z pierpa: it's not philological :) 2016-10-26T23:53:49Z raydeejay: u...m? 2016-10-26T23:53:59Z pierpa: wrt smalltalk 2016-10-26T23:54:30Z raydeejay: well I won't make the symbols in the argument list begin with colons either 2016-10-26T23:54:45Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-26T23:54:50Z pierpa: we're not authentic! 2016-10-26T23:55:04Z raydeejay: it's not worth it :) 2016-10-26T23:55:46Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-26T23:58:29Z the_signalman quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-27T00:00:14Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-27T00:00:30Z cpape quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-27T00:00:43Z the_signalman joined #lisp 2016-10-27T00:04:57Z watersoul_ joined #lisp 2016-10-27T00:05:14Z watersoul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-27T00:05:48Z nilof: I hadn't realized that the commercial implementations came with IDE's 2016-10-27T00:06:06Z nilof: How do they compare to emacs/slime in terms of basic use? 2016-10-27T00:07:27Z pierpa: They have demos you can try. Lispworks IDE is very good, IMO. Franz's I know only superficially and can't say anything about it. 2016-10-27T00:07:38Z White_Flame: I think that the reason most people use them is to build GUI Lisp programs 2016-10-27T00:08:03Z White_Flame: Lispworks has its fans as an IDE. Not sure Allegro has many ;) Some years back, they even recommended setting up SLIME over their own tools 2016-10-27T00:08:19Z pierpa: they still do, I think :) 2016-10-27T00:08:48Z White_Flame: right, it's basically better than just commandline Lisp 2016-10-27T00:09:03Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-27T00:10:33Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2016-10-27T00:10:42Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-27T00:16:42Z akkad: franz recommends slime now 2016-10-27T00:16:51Z akkad: as their gui is single threaded 2016-10-27T00:17:21Z akkad: other than capi, slime seems to be the choice 2016-10-27T00:17:27Z pierpa: and also they still distribute their own emacs mode 2016-10-27T00:18:46Z akkad: slime works with both fine from ql 2016-10-27T00:21:30Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-10-27T00:24:36Z akkad: > 2016-10-27T00:24:37Z akkad: > 2016-10-27T00:24:45Z akkad: >oops 2016-10-27T00:33:13Z pierpa: is there any Alexandria maintainer here? if so, the implementation of LERP supplied is inaccurate. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_interpolation#Programming_language_support for explanation and correct implementation. 2016-10-27T00:38:05Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-27T00:38:56Z axion: pierpa: i rewtote that a couple months ago to be numerically stable 2016-10-27T00:39:22Z pierpa: oops. Sorry. I must have a too old copy then 2016-10-27T00:40:49Z axion: Yeah it had bugged me for dar too long and I patched it in a recent commit 2016-10-27T00:40:53Z axion: far 2016-10-27T00:40:53Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-27T00:41:07Z pierpa: ty! 2016-10-27T00:41:07Z axion: phone pebcaks. bbl 2016-10-27T00:46:55Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-27T00:47:02Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T00:47:02Z cpc26 quit (Changing host) 2016-10-27T00:47:02Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T00:48:17Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-27T00:53:24Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T00:54:11Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-27T00:55:04Z npatrick04 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-27T00:56:20Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-27T00:56:26Z drmeister: Hi lispers - has anyone implemented an FFI recently or up on Common Lisp/C interfacing? I'm implementing DEFCALLBACK in Clasp and I'm having some trouble getting the function pointer for the callback function that I'm creating. 2016-10-27T00:57:09Z drmeister: I'm definitely creating a callback function. I'm loading a FASL that contains the callback function and when I... 2016-10-27T00:57:56Z drmeister: (progn (defparameter *handle* (load-bundle "fasl-with-callback")) (dlsym *handle* "callback_function")) it returns the pointer. 2016-10-27T00:58:28Z drmeister: But I can't get the pointer without the fasl handle. It's driving me nuts. I feel like I'm missing something. 2016-10-27T01:00:00Z drmeister: eg: 2016-10-27T01:00:04Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GE0l6zTO/ 2016-10-27T01:00:51Z cpc26 quit 2016-10-27T01:01:54Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:02:25Z drmeister: As usual - I post a question and immediately realize what the answer was. (sigh) 2016-10-27T01:02:38Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-27T01:02:45Z drmeister: I'm loading libraries with RTLD_LOCAL by default. Duh! 2016-10-27T01:04:01Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T01:04:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: "I posted a question and realize the answer." It never stops happening. 2016-10-27T01:04:57Z nilof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T01:05:12Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:06:20Z hlavaty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:09:16Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:09:26Z shdeng quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-27T01:10:08Z cromachina: essentially rubber duck debugging 2016-10-27T01:10:17Z raydeejay: instant 2016-10-27T01:10:51Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:14:10Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:15:35Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:16:00Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:19:10Z npatrick` joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:20:26Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:21:05Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:21:07Z shdeng quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-27T01:21:11Z Rumbles: its ur brain trying to make a fool out of u 2016-10-27T01:21:31Z Rumbles: it wont answer until it'll embarrass u 2016-10-27T01:22:36Z npatrick04 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:25:23Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:27:11Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:29:21Z npatrick` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:33:04Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:34:04Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:38:32Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:39:26Z f4 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:39:28Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:39:36Z stardiviner quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-27T01:39:53Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:44:05Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:44:30Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:47:11Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:48:46Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-27T01:54:55Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-27T01:56:30Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:58:08Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-27T01:58:09Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-27T01:58:58Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:00:09Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:01:23Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:03:37Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-27T02:05:11Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:09:01Z blackwolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T02:09:53Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:12:34Z ahungry joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:13:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:16:23Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-27T02:16:59Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-27T02:18:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-27T02:20:25Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:27:23Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:30:13Z pierpa: axion: the definition of ARRAY-INDEX with default arg is one unit too small. First 1 is subtracted from ARRAY-DIMENSION-LIMIT, then the limit is taken as exclusive. The 1- must be removed. 2016-10-27T02:30:26Z axion: pierpa: ? 2016-10-27T02:30:34Z pierpa: in Alexandria 2016-10-27T02:30:39Z axion: pierpa: I am not a maintainer of alexandria 2016-10-27T02:30:45Z pierpa: ah! 2016-10-27T02:30:50Z pierpa: :) 2016-10-27T02:31:54Z pierpa: Beach is, I see... 2016-10-27T02:33:08Z Bike: what, of alexandria? 2016-10-27T02:33:21Z pierpa: yes 2016-10-27T02:36:39Z psilord joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:37:15Z psilord left #lisp 2016-10-27T02:48:38Z DavidGu1 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:48:49Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-27T02:49:18Z loke: Who is 'lispm' on Reddit? Is it one of the regulars here? 2016-10-27T02:50:19Z drmeister: Hi - could anyone who knows x86_64 assembly language take a look at this instruction: movq -0x1, %rax What does it mean? 2016-10-27T02:50:23Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-27T02:50:24Z DavidGu1 is now known as DavidGu 2016-10-27T02:50:57Z drmeister: my DEFCALLBACK macro, which generates LLVM-IR, which gets lowered to x86_64 is generating this in the disassembly. 2016-10-27T02:52:18Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:54:27Z pierpa: I seem to remember lispm is Ron Garrett. I may be misremembering though. 2016-10-27T02:54:38Z pierpa: what did he wrote? 2016-10-27T02:54:46Z pierpa: *write 2016-10-27T02:55:01Z pierpa: loke: ^ 2016-10-27T02:55:40Z akkad: lispm is rainer joswig 2016-10-27T02:56:17Z pierpa: ach. maybe. 2016-10-27T02:59:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T02:59:35Z pillton: pierpa: No it isn't. Array-dimension-limit is an upper exclusive bound. 2016-10-27T03:02:04Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-27T03:02:10Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T03:02:51Z pierpa: pillton: I know. Look at the code 2016-10-27T03:03:25Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-27T03:03:37Z pierpa: hmmm wait a sec... 2016-10-27T03:03:40Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-27T03:03:46Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-27T03:03:47Z pillton: (defconstant maximum-axis-dimension (1- array-dimension-limit)) 2016-10-27T03:04:01Z pillton: (deftype array-index () `(integer 0 (,maximum-axis-dimension))) 2016-10-27T03:05:50Z pierpa: ok, yes. You are right. 2016-10-27T03:09:00Z loke: pierpa: Well, he makes about half the posts on Reddit #common-lisp 2016-10-27T03:09:14Z pierpa: ah 2016-10-27T03:09:33Z loke: Joswig isn't hanging out here, is he? 2016-10-27T03:12:31Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-27T03:19:09Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-27T03:19:50Z jasom: pierpa: lisper on HN is Ron Garrett IIRC 2016-10-27T03:20:25Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-27T03:20:36Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-27T03:20:50Z pierpa: yes! I just remembered he's lisper. And was going to type it here! :) 2016-10-27T03:21:09Z kruhft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T03:27:10Z kruhft joined #lisp 2016-10-27T03:31:31Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-27T03:32:02Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T03:32:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-27T03:41:54Z jasom: I remember once we agreed on something 2016-10-27T03:42:32Z loke: jasom: Garrett? He's often difficult to agree with. 2016-10-27T03:44:54Z Rumbles: does he generally argue a lot? 2016-10-27T03:45:26Z loke: Rumbles: Yes. At least back when he was posting on c.l.l. 2016-10-27T03:45:59Z kruhft quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-27T03:48:07Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-27T03:50:54Z DavidGu1 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T03:51:27Z DavidGu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T03:51:27Z DavidGu1 is now known as DavidGu 2016-10-27T03:52:08Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-27T03:56:42Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T04:04:10Z Bike: clhs ~@ 2016-10-27T04:04:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 2016-10-27T04:04:13Z analyticd joined #lisp 2016-10-27T04:04:22Z analyticd left #lisp 2016-10-27T04:08:10Z Bike: right, it's a modifier... 2016-10-27T04:11:10Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-27T04:12:48Z gacepa joined #lisp 2016-10-27T04:12:54Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-27T04:12:57Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T04:13:00Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-27T04:15:25Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-10-27T04:21:51Z cell joined #lisp 2016-10-27T04:23:48Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-27T04:25:38Z ryan_vw_ joined #lisp 2016-10-27T04:27:58Z ryan_vw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-27T04:31:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-27T04:33:23Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-27T04:34:34Z krwq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T04:36:19Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-27T04:37:50Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-27T04:42:03Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-27T04:44:38Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-27T04:44:44Z beach: Good morning everyone! 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-27T15:26:25Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-10-27T15:28:25Z DavidGu1 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T15:28:42Z dwc: XML - the only winning move is not to play 2016-10-27T15:29:33Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-27T15:30:41Z shrdlu68: \exit 2016-10-27T15:30:47Z shrdlu68 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-27T15:31:35Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-27T15:31:36Z DavidGu1 is now known as DavidGu 2016-10-27T15:32:40Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-27T15:36:32Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-27T15:37:35Z JuanDaugherty has found the tried and true ones best xerces, et. all, the ones internet protocol handlers typically use 2016-10-27T15:37:41Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-27T15:37:56Z JuanDaugherty: the move to not play is normally called "resign" 2016-10-27T15:38:08Z JuanDaugherty: or capitulate 2016-10-27T15:39:23Z JuanDaugherty: *et. al. 2016-10-27T15:40:43Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T15:41:28Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-27T15:44:41Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-27T15:45:03Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T15:48:54Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2016-10-27T15:49:12Z ASau` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-27T15:50:04Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-27T15:50:44Z arduo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-27T15:56:57Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T15:57:59Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-10-27T15:59:39Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-10-27T16:02:27Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-27T16:02:44Z heurist`_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-27T16:03:15Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-27T16:03:25Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-27T16:05:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-27T16:08:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-27T16:09:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-27T16:09:48Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-27T16:13:36Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-27T16:15:07Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-27T16:17:52Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-27T16:20:52Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-27T16:21:52Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-27T16:22:08Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-27T16:23:23Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-27T16:27:48Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-27T16:31:20Z HeyFlash quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-27T16:33:52Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T16:34:42Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-27T16:36:44Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2016-10-27T18:40:47Z Xach_: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-10-27/failure-report/esrap-peg.html#esrap-peg 2016-10-27T18:40:53Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-27T18:41:19Z scymtym: Xach_: looking 2016-10-27T18:41:34Z rjid left #lisp 2016-10-27T18:42:17Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-27T18:43:12Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-27T18:43:48Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-27T18:44:39Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-27T18:45:32Z prole: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-10-27T18:45:57Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-27T18:47:33Z scymtym: Xach_: esrap-peg is using a formerly internal symbol that no longer exists. assuming esrap-peg is maintained, it can easily be fixed by adding the (three-line) function that has been removed from esrap 2016-10-27T18:51:59Z Xach_: scymtym: kudos for locking the esrap package! 2016-10-27T18:53:14Z blackwolf: I'm getting an error installing iolib via quicklisp (g++ is exiting with error code 1) -- how can I see the output from the compiler to diagnose this? 2016-10-27T18:53:35Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-27T18:53:45Z foom joined #lisp 2016-10-27T18:54:01Z Xach_: blackwolf: when that happens to me, I try to re-run the command line that failed on the actual command-line. 2016-10-27T18:54:21Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T18:54:23Z blackwolf: ah - thx .... 2016-10-27T18:55:16Z Xach_: I don't know if that is the best approach 2016-10-27T18:55:36Z scymtym: Xach_: we have to thank nikodemus for that 2016-10-27T18:55:51Z scymtym: (also for package locks) 2016-10-27T18:57:17Z Anselmo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-27T18:57:22Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-27T18:57:40Z blackwolf: Xach_: that worked -- missing a header file. 2016-10-27T18:57:48Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-27T18:58:14Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-27T18:58:44Z funnel joined #lisp 2016-10-27T18:59:58Z Xach_: blackwolf: parfait 2016-10-27T19:00:41Z blackwolf: hrmm ... appears to be a known/previously reported issue: . can load that library, though. 2016-10-27T19:04:19Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-27T19:04:57Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-27T19:04:59Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-27T19:07:54Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T19:09:15Z knobo: blackwolf: are you not able to install libfixposix? 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2016-10-27T21:10:36Z Rumbles: or is that library not a lisp package 2016-10-27T21:11:07Z scottj left #lisp 2016-10-27T21:11:38Z blackwolf: iolib's issue comes from cffi and native C code. if asdf was coded to create test C code similar to autoconf/configure, then system (c compiler) issues could be picked up before the package was built by asdf. 2016-10-27T21:11:42Z younder: If quicklisp was part of the distribution and everything was there could you not just conditianally include it ? (like in Haskells Cabal) 2016-10-27T21:12:28Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-27T21:13:08Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-27T21:13:26Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-27T21:13:41Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-27T21:13:52Z blackwolf: ... or the .c code could be written to conditionally include some files (configure uses `#if defined(...)' blocks) and not provide some features if they're not available on the box ... but that's a fair bit of work. 2016-10-27T21:16:18Z sebboh: so you isolate part of the quickload'able library, require the user to quickload it separately. 2016-10-27T21:16:38Z sebboh: put conditionals in the main library which check if it is available. 2016-10-27T21:16:56Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-27T21:17:00Z sebboh: s/it/the isolated library/ 2016-10-27T21:20:57Z mordocai: Meh, or you do what every other language with a CFFI library does and make the user deal with it when it errors like common lisp currently does. 2016-10-27T21:21:26Z mordocai: This is the status quo, it'd be cool to improve it but people should be used to it 2016-10-27T21:24:21Z phadthai: in a possible implementation, cffi would have to require a manifest of distribution-independent C dependencies (headers/libraries) and use something like pkg-config at build time to verify if the dependencies are present; then that would only work with specific cffi versions and software using that feature... and would replicate much of what autoconf and other similar tools do 2016-10-27T21:24:45Z Rumbles: ...dont settle for terrible mordocai 2016-10-27T21:24:54Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-27T21:25:07Z Rumbles: make it better 2016-10-27T21:25:57Z blackwolf: particularly re: quicklisp which is intended to make package management simple 2016-10-27T21:26:11Z phadthai: so it's indeed simpler to leave it to an FFI library's documentation to tell the user which libraries are needed 2016-10-27T21:26:13Z blackwolf: (and does a very good job of it, imho) 2016-10-27T21:26:43Z jcowan: This is the fate of all lesser-used languages: no one can package them for every distro (counting Windows and OS X as distros) and so they have to have private package managers, which need to be portable enough not to interoperate with the OS package system. 2016-10-27T21:26:50Z phadthai: (and header files, not only libraries) 2016-10-27T21:27:18Z blackwolf: as long as that's communicated to the user. the condition didn't have any mention of missing headers/libs, I had to figure that out myself. 2016-10-27T21:27:19Z mordocai: Rumbles: blackwolf: Quicklisp + asdf + CFFI is better than most other implementations of the same ideas already IMO. I don't feel like we'd be settling for terrible. If there was a good cross platform way to handle C deps then i'd be all for suing it but there isn't/ 2016-10-27T21:27:30Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-27T21:27:58Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-27T21:28:03Z mordocai: s/suing/using/ 2016-10-27T21:28:17Z blackwolf: mordocai: agreed, I'm just noting that determining the issue was possibly beyond the capability of some users. 2016-10-27T21:28:48Z mordocai: blackwolf: For distributing things to users you should probably distribute the C libraries with the app and have a download for every platform you support 2016-10-27T21:28:56Z mordocai: If by users you mean end users 2016-10-27T21:29:04Z blackwolf: yes] 2016-10-27T21:29:47Z mordocai: The big issue here is there isn't a non-linux-specific way to handle it AFAIk. 2016-10-27T21:30:01Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-10-27T21:30:03Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T21:32:37Z flazh joined #lisp 2016-10-27T21:34:38Z defaultxr joined #lisp 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-27T23:30:48Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-27T23:34:34Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-27T23:35:21Z hel-io quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-27T23:40:29Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-27T23:40:43Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-27T23:40:46Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-27T23:40:55Z Vicfred quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-27T23:42:09Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-27T23:45:13Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-27T23:46:02Z jasom: mordocai: I have some patches that improve the situation; require changes in both cffi and uiop (the latter is already merged) 2016-10-27T23:48:08Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-27T23:48:53Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-27T23:51:24Z aeth: The one disadvantage I think a big Lisp like CL has is accidentally trying to use some built in name that is never used but is built in. 2016-10-27T23:51:54Z raydeejay: heh 2016-10-27T23:52:03Z raydeejay: 1/ "gonna make a mud" 2016-10-27T23:52:09Z raydeejay: 2/ (defclass room) 2016-10-27T23:52:12Z aeth: woah 2016-10-27T23:52:16Z aeth: that's literally the one I just found out about 2016-10-27T23:52:25Z aeth: you beat me to my own point 2016-10-27T23:52:27Z raydeejay: :D 2016-10-27T23:52:37Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-27T23:52:46Z aeth: Except instead of a MUD this is a fancy 3D FPS 2016-10-27T23:52:57Z aeth: why I'm constructing its geometry like a 2D MUD in CL, idk 2016-10-27T23:53:12Z aeth: 3D's just like 2D but with many, many, many more numbers 2016-10-27T23:53:45Z jasom: mordocai: The changes were necessary to allow ql2nix to determine external dependencies from the output of a failed load-system 2016-10-27T23:55:09Z aeth: raydeejay: actually Lisp-2 kind of makes me surprised more than a Lisp-1 because I can get away with a variable called room 2016-10-27T23:55:28Z aeth: it's only when I want to generate that variable from a function of the same name (because why not? it's a Lisp-2 so might as well) that I got burned 2016-10-27T23:56:33Z raydeejay: I solved it but declaring that rooms shall be known as locations, and never looked back 2016-10-27T23:56:43Z raydeejay: but then it is a text mud 2016-10-27T23:57:31Z aeth: well I had to use "location" for "position" because position is a function too. 2016-10-27T23:57:52Z aeth: for physics/rendering 2016-10-27T23:59:23Z raydeejay: hehe same stone 2016-10-28T00:00:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-28T00:01:44Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-28T00:02:05Z aeth: I'm actually making very fast progress... I hope collisions are impossibly difficult with the way I wrote my level geometry... Also, varying floor heights. 2016-10-28T00:02:38Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-28T00:02:45Z raydeejay: you want a "not" in that sentence, right? 2016-10-28T00:02:52Z aeth: oh oops 2016-10-28T00:02:58Z raydeejay: xD 2016-10-28T00:03:03Z aeth: no wait, I do want to hope that collisions are impossibly difficult 2016-10-28T00:03:06Z raydeejay: \o/ 2016-10-28T00:03:07Z aeth: because then they won't be 2016-10-28T00:03:18Z aeth: if I hope that collisions are easy they will be impossibly difficult 2016-10-28T00:03:47Z funnel joined #lisp 2016-10-28T00:04:28Z aeth: Hopefully I can get all of the features that are expected of late 1990s and early 2000s FPSes. It doesn't seem that hard in 2016. 2016-10-28T00:04:38Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-28T00:04:55Z aeth: It's a good thing all the genre's really done since then is look prettier, add more physics objects (and then remove them once they turned out to break the balance), and add hats. 2016-10-28T00:05:07Z aeth: Oh, and gun sights. 2016-10-28T00:05:36Z raydeejay points out that this is #lisp, just in case 2016-10-28T00:05:37Z watersoul_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-28T00:06:05Z watersoul joined #lisp 2016-10-28T00:06:26Z aeth: Well, it's being written in Lisp and people might want to know that I'm trying to rush out a FPS engine before the Lisp game jam that's in... a week or so? 2016-10-28T00:06:40Z aeth: but yes I got a bit off topic there 2016-10-28T00:06:49Z aeth: Here the gameplay doesn't matter, only what it's written in 2016-10-28T00:07:27Z raydeejay: scheme! 2016-10-28T00:08:41Z aeth: Advantage of Scheme: I can probably call things "room", "position" and "t" (for time in physics formulae) . Disadvantage of Scheme: no libraries and no portability and not as low level. 2016-10-28T00:09:37Z aeth: (Not quite no libraries, but still, most of the game libraries are written with CL in mind.) 2016-10-28T00:10:44Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-28T00:10:45Z aeth: Scheme is definitely used as a scripting language, not really an engine language (the popular Schemes, at least). In CL, only GC/memory stuff gets in the way of a game engine, and it's comparable to e.g. Java where people have written full games before. 2016-10-28T00:11:18Z Bike: well, one thing that hasn't changed since the nineties is using other people's engines, and it works pretty well... 2016-10-28T00:11:40Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-28T00:11:46Z aeth: Bike: and if someone else had an FPS engine in CL, I'd use it. 2016-10-28T00:12:17Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-28T00:13:44Z aeth: I hate C++, Java, and C#. These are the only languages people are using for major engines and frameworks in 2016. (And not that much Java even.) 2016-10-28T00:13:57Z pipping quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-28T00:14:02Z Bike: i don't know that you have to use them... 2016-10-28T00:14:11Z Bike: anyway there's https://bitbucket.org/elliottslaughter/blackthorn-engine-3d not that i've looked much at it 2016-10-28T00:14:13Z rjeli quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-28T00:14:24Z pipping joined #lisp 2016-10-28T00:14:54Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-28T00:15:09Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-10-28T00:15:19Z aeth: "Please note: Blackthorn 3D is no longer under active development, and the code is mostly of historical interest only." 2016-10-28T00:15:28Z pok quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-28T00:15:35Z pok joined #lisp 2016-10-28T00:15:44Z axion: Yeah, that engine is a joke 2016-10-28T00:15:47Z rjeli joined #lisp 2016-10-28T00:16:02Z aeth: From what I know so far, the one thing that will probably completely destroy my attempts is animation. Otherwise, it's not that bad right now. 2016-10-28T00:17:45Z aeth: Anyway, I'm mostly working on something that no one else seems to be working on (3D level geometry) so I can just use other people's work if I give up on other parts. 2016-10-28T00:17:59Z aeth: I've already given up on fonts and I haven't even started. Fortunately there's a font library. I'll have to try it. 2016-10-28T00:19:53Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-28T00:20:15Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-28T00:21:22Z gniourf joined #lisp 2016-10-28T00:22:05Z aeth: Anyway, FPS is such a solved problem I don't really need to use another engine. It'd only really help (and it'd help a lot) with asset management. There's nothing my library's going to do that Source can't do except hopefully handle much larger maps. 2016-10-28T00:22:31Z aeth: It looks like quite a few engines even just make you make your level in Blender and import it, anyway. 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2016-10-28T04:23:46Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-28T04:25:15Z John[Lisbeth] left #lisp 2016-10-28T04:28:45Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-28T04:29:50Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-28T04:29:56Z reinisch quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T04:33:39Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T04:33:40Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T04:35:22Z reinisch joined #lisp 2016-10-28T04:40:12Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T04:40:48Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-28T04:43:24Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T04:44:41Z prxq_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T04:47:15Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T04:49:02Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-28T04:50:21Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-28T04:53:33Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-28T04:53:47Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-10-28T04:54:08Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-28T04:54:44Z dunderproto: I'm trying to run sbcl where I've chroot to /var/www. I used ldd in an attempt to find its dependencies, and I copied /usr/local/bin/sbcl, /usr/lib/libutil.so.12.1, /usr/lib/libm.so.9.0, /usr/lib/libc.so.88.0, and /usr/libexec/ld.so into /var/www. But when I execute "chroot -u www /var/www /cgi-bin/test.lisp", I get "Abort trap". Any ideas? 2016-10-28T04:58:35Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:00:00Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:01:07Z Patzy joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:02:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:04:01Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-28T05:04:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:07:04Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-28T05:07:16Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T05:09:09Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-28T05:10:43Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:10:57Z letothesecond joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:12:38Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-28T05:15:41Z phadthai: dunderproto: you could try using ldd and strace on non-chrooted sbcl to verify its dependencies (and may possibly need a few other things like an etc directory with a passwd db and resolv.conf, a syslog socket in var, etc)... moreover, there may be other run-time dependencies depending on the applications used and their FFI wrappers of course 2016-10-28T05:16:12Z phadthai: you may also need to set LD_LIBRARY_PATH if your libraries are not at the expected locations (objdump -p could show the RPATH entries) 2016-10-28T05:17:18Z phadthai: some applications chroot and drop privileges after they have been launched, making their setup less complex 2016-10-28T05:17:30Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-28T05:17:58Z dunderproto: phadthai: hmm, that sounds quite complicated 2016-10-28T05:18:35Z phadthai: there probably are scripts helping to create small minimal chroots, I have one such but for NetBSD 2016-10-28T05:19:17Z phadthai: some manual intervention may still be needed as they cannot always detect all runtime dependencies 2016-10-28T05:19:40Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-28T05:19:50Z phadthai: some admins also null-mount a larger shared / file system read-only 2016-10-28T05:20:17Z phadthai: in each chroot/jail/vm 2016-10-28T05:20:51Z dunderproto: I was following this OpenBSD guide for setting up cgi for perl: http://protoc.org/blog/2014/11/23/first-thoughts-on-the-new-openbsd-httpd-server/ . I managed to get perl working and had hoped that sbcl would be similarly easy 2016-10-28T05:21:32Z gniourf joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:21:45Z dunderproto: phadthai: Thank you for your suggestions though. I will try to read through them. I am very new to unix so I'll need to read through the docs carefully 2016-10-28T05:26:09Z phadthai: when the application itself supports changing privileges and chrooting it's always easier because they start in a more complete environment 2016-10-28T05:26:21Z phadthai: hmm that page seems like a good start with the ldd command 2016-10-28T05:27:00Z phadthai: in case it can be useful (but NetBSD-specific, things like device numbers or required files may vary): http://git.pulsar-zone.net/?p=mmondor.git;a=blob;f=mmsoftware/util/chroot-create.sh;hb=HEAD 2016-10-28T05:27:17Z phadthai: I don't currently have SBCL to do a test with 2016-10-28T05:27:33Z dunderproto: phadthai: thank you, I'll take a look 2016-10-28T05:28:56Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-28T05:32:03Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:34:20Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:35:01Z dunderproto: In the mean time, is it possible to compile lisp code so that it doesn't require any dependencies? It would be nice to see if at least the cgi configuration is working 2016-10-28T05:36:42Z phadthai: maybe with save-lisp-and-die, but I can't confirm as I've not used the feature in a long time 2016-10-28T05:36:54Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:37:07Z dunderproto: phadthai: thanks 2016-10-28T05:37:19Z phadthai: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14171849/compiling-common-lisp-to-an-executable 2016-10-28T05:39:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T05:39:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:41:44Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:44:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-28T05:46:11Z reinisch quit (Quit: reinisch) 2016-10-28T05:47:45Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-28T05:51:53Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T05:59:04Z heurist`_` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T05:59:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-10-28T05:59:33Z heurist`_` joined #lisp 2016-10-28T06:00:39Z 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2016-10-28T08:45:54Z RichardPaulBck[m: dunderproto: you can use Roswell for that too. It essentially is a frontend for the different lisp implementations. https://github.com/roswell/roswell 2016-10-28T08:46:01Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-28T08:46:28Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-10-28T08:49:14Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T08:50:16Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-28T08:50:16Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2016-10-28T08:51:33Z heurist`_` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T08:52:18Z heurist`_` joined #lisp 2016-10-28T08:52:58Z przl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T08:55:21Z letothesecond quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-28T08:57:33Z drobban joined #lisp 2016-10-28T08:58:04Z salva00 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-10-28T08:59:08Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T09:00:30Z salva00 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T09:00:53Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-28T09:06:43Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-28T09:13:27Z quazimodo quit 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in CLOS 2016-10-28T13:26:19Z phoe_: but literally requires rewriting the whole chain of objects in Java and messing up the designed interfaces used by the clients which we cannot change because so say the project architects! 2016-10-28T13:26:37Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-28T13:27:03Z phoe_ venting mode off 2016-10-28T13:27:04Z phoe_: bbl 2016-10-28T13:29:42Z ovenpasta: boolsheet 2016-10-28T13:30:08Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-28T13:32:03Z ritschmaster[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-28T13:32:04Z illandan[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-28T13:32:05Z moredhel[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-28T13:32:22Z dunderproto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T13:32:52Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-10-28T13:33:36Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T13:35:56Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-28T13:36:10Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-28T13:46:27Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-28T13:46:55Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-28T13:50:47Z 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I'd really like to relay that to some Java guy I know 2016-10-28T14:18:20Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-28T14:19:38Z ubmt joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:20:28Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: Restart requested by ilbelkyr: updates) 2016-10-28T14:20:29Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:20:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:20:45Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:21:47Z hugo_dc joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:22:34Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T14:22:39Z davsebamse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-28T14:22:51Z flip214: but judging from past reactions I'd only get "that's not the idiomatic way" or "who would EVER try such a thing?" 2016-10-28T14:23:19Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:23:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:24:25Z Xach_: reminds me of how people use short C programs and lisp people say "not fair, the operating system always includes the C runtime" 2016-10-28T14:24:45Z Xach_: clos use can be short but you need that infrastucture! 2016-10-28T14:25:11Z jackdaniel: good point 2016-10-28T14:26:12Z Xach_: i'm happy to drag that infrastructure around rather than reinvent it poorly in a hostile environment :) 2016-10-28T14:27:12Z flip214: or bragging around "good library support" and then reinventing perl's backticks badly 2016-10-28T14:28:08Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:29:14Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:30:49Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:30:59Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-28T14:32:55Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T14:33:33Z Zotan joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:35:48Z Fade: I've been trapped in python lately. 2016-10-28T14:35:51Z Fade: sadface. 2016-10-28T14:36:29Z Fade: and not just python, but python 2.7 2016-10-28T14:36:58Z Fade: because six years after 3 released, nobody has converted. I miss slime _so_ much. 2016-10-28T14:41:20Z dlowe: seems like you could make a swank for python. 2016-10-28T14:41:35Z dlowe: or, you know, someone 2016-10-28T14:42:04Z Fade: elpy interfaces with ipython 2016-10-28T14:42:12Z Fade: it's about halfway to slime+lisp. 2016-10-28T14:42:32Z Fade: but when I finish work, I'm not inclined to hack python in my free time. :) 2016-10-28T14:42:42Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-28T14:43:21Z tfb: But would you be if it had a better environment (I wouldn't) 2016-10-28T14:43:28Z jdz: Fade: elpy made my python experience barely bearable. 2016-10-28T14:50:38Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T14:52:14Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-28T14:52:17Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T14:53:10Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:53:48Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:54:53Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-28T14:55:11Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-28T14:56:03Z Fade: yep. that has been my experience, too. 2016-10-28T14:56:55Z Fade: "here's a nickel, kid. go buy yourself a real object system." 2016-10-28T14:58:13Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:06:35Z Munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-28T15:08:50Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-28T15:09:33Z drobban quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T15:10:33Z trueneu quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-28T15:11:43Z _death: today's hack: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329795 2016-10-28T15:12:11Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-28T15:14:49Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-28T15:16:42Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:17:00Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-28T15:17:32Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:19:22Z trueneu joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:21:01Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:21:53Z ovenpasta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T15:22:00Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-28T15:22:10Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:25:53Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T15:28:13Z hugo_dc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-28T15:28:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:28:36Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-28T15:28:48Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T15:29:23Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:30:00Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T15:30:20Z rudolfochrist quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-10-28T15:33:15Z _death: then again, maybe just (setf (fdefinition 'sum) #'new-sum) ;) 2016-10-28T15:33:52Z pipping: _death: care to say a few more introductory words? (if all the available information is 'hack', 'today', and 'lisp', it might quite well not be worth clicking :P) 2016-10-28T15:34:51Z ubmt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T15:35:46Z _death: there isn't much to say once you click.. 2016-10-28T15:36:39Z younder: Well look to the two examples at the bottom 2016-10-28T15:36:42Z _death: it contains context, half-arsed documentation to half-arsed implementation, and an example 2016-10-28T15:38:17Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-28T15:39:39Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-28T15:41:42Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:42:15Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:43:47Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:44:59Z cypher__ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:45:29Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T15:47:43Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:49:02Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:54:33Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T15:58:31Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-28T15:58:54Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:59:24Z HeyFlash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T15:59:42Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-28T15:59:49Z heurist__ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T16:00:16Z beaky: hello 2016-10-28T16:02:33Z heurist`_` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-28T16:02:33Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-28T16:03:10Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-28T16:03:18Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2016-10-28T16:03:19Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T16:03:29Z beaky: hello beach 2016-10-28T16:03:44Z White_Flame: hi, beakh, beacy 2016-10-28T16:05:06Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-28T16:05:38Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-10-28T16:05:38Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-10-28T16:06:02Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T16:06:51Z trueneu quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I use WingIDE 2016-10-28T16:56:19Z ghostlight joined #lisp 2016-10-28T16:57:59Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-28T16:58:15Z beaky: yes i wish all languages had tools as great as gdb or slime 2016-10-28T16:59:54Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:00:31Z younder: I would guess they prefer a IDE more in line with MicrosoftStudio or XCode. People are creatures of habbit. 2016-10-28T17:00:40Z beaky: ah 2016-10-28T17:01:28Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:01:45Z rjid left #lisp 2016-10-28T17:01:53Z scymtym: su 2016-10-28T17:01:56Z scymtym: sorry 2016-10-28T17:03:26Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-28T17:04:01Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:05:06Z Anselmo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-28T17:08:09Z easye-ipad joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:11:15Z Anselmo joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:11:33Z easye-ipad quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-28T17:11:43Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:13:13Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:13:16Z test1600 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-28T17:13:38Z Xach_: I always get excited when I see new repos with interesting descriptions 2016-10-28T17:13:43Z Xach_: e.g. "Common lisp environment with opengl and sbcl 2016-10-28T17:13:45Z Xach_: " 2016-10-28T17:13:48Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T17:14:01Z Xach_: sadly, https://github.com/Arboreta/arboreta-core is just a hello-world stub 2016-10-28T17:14:12Z Indecipherable quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-28T17:14:19Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-28T17:14:33Z dlowe: new repos are usually stubs 2016-10-28T17:15:24Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:15:33Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:16:05Z zooey joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:16:09Z Xach_: I'm still always optimistic that someone will drop something fully formed. 2016-10-28T17:17:16Z Indecipherable quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-28T17:21:23Z Xach_: Hope springs eternal. 2016-10-28T17:21:27Z easye-ipad joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:21:43Z loke```` joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:22:10Z ovenpasta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T17:22:31Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:22:34Z loke``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T17:25:03Z easye-ipad quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-28T17:25:07Z phoe_: jasom: you know that the amount of fine-grained unit tests required grows exponentially with source code? 2016-10-28T17:25:24Z phoe_: like - when you follow the "doesn't immediately localize your problem" 2016-10-28T17:25:57Z phoe_: "does this program error for input X" is halting problem and therefore NP 2016-10-28T17:26:33Z Bike: "NP"? 2016-10-28T17:26:52Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T17:27:23Z pipping: Bike: not decidable in polynomial time 2016-10-28T17:27:50Z easye-ipad joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:27:53Z Bike: that's not what NP means. 2016-10-28T17:28:14Z sellout- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-28T17:28:38Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:29:20Z Bike: that problem is halting-reducible, but so is determining that a given algorithm implements a given function. we can often do it anyway. 2016-10-28T17:29:52Z Xach_: for example! https://github.com/USIBC/XARF 2016-10-28T17:30:01Z Bike: not to say that having no debugger like that wouldn't require a pretty dumb amount of tests, but tests aren't /that/ useless 2016-10-28T17:30:38Z easye-ipad quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-28T17:31:16Z Bike: moved from elsewhere, well that makes sense. maybe we could all just start projects locally and only put them on github when they're working at some basic level. sort of thought that was normal anyway 2016-10-28T17:31:51Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:32:37Z pipping: Bike: I'm not sure what you're saying now. You're saying "not decidable in polynomial time" is not what NP means? Whether a Turing machine can be made to stop quickly on a subset of the possible inputs doesn't affect whether the problem is NP or not 2016-10-28T17:33:19Z easye-ipad joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:33:23Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-28T17:34:18Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T17:34:50Z Bike: NP means "non-deterministic polynomial", not "not polynomial". 2016-10-28T17:36:26Z pipping admits, very much embarrassed: that is entirely true. 2016-10-28T17:37:59Z pipping: good thing I don't have a CS degree, otherwise I'd probably have it revoked now :) 2016-10-28T17:40:58Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-28T17:41:22Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:41:31Z beach left #lisp 2016-10-28T17:43:19Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:45:48Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T17:46:19Z rumbler31: lol i have a cs degree and I missed this key difference 2016-10-28T17:49:09Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T17:51:54Z blackwolf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-28T17:52:00Z easye-ipad quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi) 2016-10-28T17:53:37Z jasom: phoe_: you are mixing up your terms. halting-problem is not in NP, and NP means "Solvable in polynomial time on a nondeterministic turing machine" 2016-10-28T17:54:12Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:54:18Z easye-ipad joined #lisp 2016-10-28T17:54:48Z jasom: pipping: it has not been provin that there are any problems in P that are not in NP 2016-10-28T17:54:58Z jasom: s/provin/proven 2016-10-28T17:55:08Z jasom: and I got that backwards 2016-10-28T17:55:19Z jasom: It has not been proven that there are any problems in NP that are not in P 2016-10-28T17:55:23Z _death: the halting problem is undecidable.. there is no general algorithm for it 2016-10-28T17:55:52Z jasom: _death: which means it is not in NP 2016-10-28T17:56:21Z phoe_: jasom: can I enumerate machines which will *not* error for input X? 2016-10-28T17:56:26Z phoe_: I don't think that I can 2016-10-28T17:56:30Z phoe_: therefore I think you're right 2016-10-28T17:57:46Z phoe_: there doesn't exist an algorithm for enumerating them 2016-10-28T17:57:51Z jasom: In any event, I think super fine grained unit tests are very often a waste of time. In particular there is a significant class of problems for which it is easier to write a correct implementation than it is to test that your implementation is correct, and overly fine grained unit tests are actively hostile to refactoring 2016-10-28T17:57:54Z phoe_: because if any machine hangs, the algorithm hangs 2016-10-28T17:58:20Z jasom: phoe_: it is, however, possible to enumerate all machines that will not error for input X in a finite amount of time. 2016-10-28T17:58:28Z phoe_: jasom: finite amount of time, correct 2016-10-28T17:58:30Z phoe_: and that's NP 2016-10-28T17:58:33Z jasom: s/fininte amount/ chosen finite amount 2016-10-28T17:58:46Z phoe_: yeah, arbitrary amount of TM steps 2016-10-28T17:59:03Z easye-ipad quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-28T17:59:05Z phoe_: because the enumerating algorithm always returns after O(n) time, where n is steps. 2016-10-28T17:59:31Z pipping: jasom: right. I'm also confused how I managed to house the correct understanding of what 'P = NP' means and this incorrect definition of NP in my brain at the same time. 2016-10-28T17:59:45Z phoe_: pipping: hey, that's my own misunderstanding, too 2016-10-28T18:00:15Z easye-ipad joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:00:38Z jasom: "Find a turing machine that does not error for input X in time Y" is within NP as you can verify it in polynomial time; specifically O(1) 2016-10-28T18:01:00Z trueneu joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:01:11Z phoe_: jasom: sidenote: everything is actually O(1) space- and time- complexity 2016-10-28T18:01:24Z phoe_: as it's bounded by the amount of atoms/quarks/whatever in the universe and the expected lifetime of it 2016-10-28T18:01:24Z jasom: phoe_: only on finite machines 2016-10-28T18:01:28Z phoe_: jasom: no 2016-10-28T18:01:35Z phoe_: but hey again, we're all finite 2016-10-28T18:01:39Z jasom: phoe_: not in math 2016-10-28T18:01:51Z jasom: There are theoretical machines that have infinite states 2016-10-28T18:01:59Z jasom: we just can't ever build them 2016-10-28T18:02:23Z easye-ipad: Use the power of the Continuum! 2016-10-28T18:02:46Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:02:50Z easye-ipad actually doesn't believe in hypercomputation. 2016-10-28T18:03:28Z TMA: that assumes that simulating a step is a constant time operation, the simulated machine can write O(n) symbols to its tape in n steps; however simulating a step usually entails moving through the simulated tape to the part of the tape containing the TM description, so one simulated step is \Omega(simulated-tape + machine description) 2016-10-28T18:03:29Z easye-ipad: But it would be interesting if it were physically possible, 2016-10-28T18:03:35Z jcowan joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:03:46Z phoe_: jasom: there's also theoretical flying elephants, we just can't ever find any 2016-10-28T18:04:44Z phoe_: but then again, imaginary numbers ain't real either 2016-10-28T18:04:51Z phoe_: but they're useful. 2016-10-28T18:05:15Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:05:16Z easye-ipad: imaginary numbers are as real as the counting numbers to me. 2016-10-28T18:05:17Z gz__ quit 2016-10-28T18:05:38Z gz_ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:05:41Z fourier: phoe_: real numbers ain't real as well 2016-10-28T18:06:11Z easye-ipad: No numbers have ontological status other than as mathematical constructs. 2016-10-28T18:06:18Z easye-ipad: The rest is the work of man. 2016-10-28T18:06:38Z jasom: non-finite values get very strange as well; the cardinality of the set of rational numbers between zero and one is identical to the cardinality of the set of all rational numbers and also equal to the cardinality of the set of all integers. 2016-10-28T18:06:55Z phoe_: fourier: ;_; 2016-10-28T18:07:06Z lugus35[m] joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:07:08Z jasom: but the cardinality of the set of reals is larger than any of those. 2016-10-28T18:07:28Z jasom: despite the fact that there are an infinite number of rationals between any two reals 2016-10-28T18:07:50Z TMA: that's just a meek, small infinity 2016-10-28T18:08:14Z TMA: a tame infinity, a countable one 2016-10-28T18:08:18Z easye-ipad: Whether mathematical epistemology has ontological status depends on what you think of Plato's forms. 2016-10-28T18:08:22Z M-moredhel joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:08:23Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:08:29Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:08:48Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T18:08:59Z jasom: easye-ipad: not really; I can ascribe ontological status to anything I can imagine without agreeing with anything plato says. 2016-10-28T18:09:44Z easye-ipad: Alright. But you should have some reasons to reject/accept the idea of epistemological projection into ontological "reality" 2016-10-28T18:10:21Z jcowan: Die Consen und die Fixnumen hat der lieber McCarthy gemacht; alles anderen is Hackerwerk. 2016-10-28T18:10:56Z TMA: jasom: even when he says "I can ascribe ontological status to anything I can imagine"? :-P 2016-10-28T18:10:56Z easye-ipad: If you go with "near multiverse" as ontological, then your claim is certainly true. 2016-10-28T18:11:23Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:11:31Z jasom: TMA: yes, that is not contradictory; I could arbitrarily ascribe ontological status to unicorns, but not geometric shapes. 2016-10-28T18:11:35Z easye-ipad: But not as is classically ascribed to the set of things humans can imagine. 2016-10-28T18:12:30Z phoe_: jcowan: XD 2016-10-28T18:12:34Z easye-ipad: But no one can verify your claim about unicorns without some rather destructive brain surgery. 2016-10-28T18:12:55Z jcowan: s/is/ist 2016-10-28T18:14:10Z jasom thought it was sind/gemacht not haben/gemacht but a quick google proves me wrong. 2016-10-28T18:14:18Z easye-ipad: An ontology that isn't capable of being shared with other humans isn't intrinsically interesting to me. 2016-10-28T18:14:22Z jcowan: As Quine points out, you can take an arbitrariy ontology and replace all objects in it with their complements (thus "John Cowan" becomes "the universe, except for John Cowan") and everything else is fine. 2016-10-28T18:14:36Z TMA: easye-ipad: strictly speaking, neither the surgery will provide insight as to the ontological status -- it would merely enable observing the belief therein 2016-10-28T18:15:03Z easye-ipad: TMA: yep. I agreee. 2016-10-28T18:18:12Z phoe_ attempts to aggressively change the topic 2016-10-28T18:18:18Z phoe_: hey guys i heard that scheme can do real computation compared to c++ and java but i dont like it so what is better about this language??/ can it do AI on it's own?? or what? 2016-10-28T18:18:34Z phoe_ ducks and runs off for food 2016-10-28T18:18:40Z easye-ipad: Heh 2016-10-28T18:18:41Z mordocai: So I was talking awhile back about wishing I had a (html-to-cl-who) function. Someone made something in elisp to do it for clojure's hiccup https://github.com/plexus/html-to-hiccup. Might be easy to change it out to cl-who syntax. 2016-10-28T18:18:43Z White_Flame: scheme can't do AI because it's a Lisp-1 2016-10-28T18:19:26Z fourier: phoe_: if you are so good at lisp why you aren't rich? ha ? 2016-10-28T18:20:02Z fourier: phoe_: or rather: if lisp is such a good language why nobody uses it ? 2016-10-28T18:20:07Z mordocai wants to use it to edit html in emacs as cl-who and then save it as html. 2016-10-28T18:20:12Z easye-ipad: mordocai: interesting. I could use something like that. You run it through something external like tagsoup to normalize the HTML. 2016-10-28T18:20:19Z jcowan: And Common Lisp can't do AI because its macros are only half-hygienic and its continuations are second-class. 2016-10-28T18:20:24Z fourier: interesting to count amount of trolls per year with this kind of questions.. 2016-10-28T18:20:31Z easye-ipad: s/./?/ 2016-10-28T18:20:32Z jcowan: Python, of course, can't do AI because everyone knows the mind is not an object. 2016-10-28T18:20:58Z pjb: fourier: if you're so good at python, why aren't you rich? 2016-10-28T18:21:09Z easye-ipad: jcowan: groan. 2016-10-28T18:21:12Z jcowan: "I can make jokes on any subject, Your Majesty." "Oh really? Make one on me!" "Ah, but Your Majesty is not a subject." 2016-10-28T18:21:14Z White_Flame: assembly code can't do AI, but only because it hasn't been written yet 2016-10-28T18:21:17Z _death: mordocai: it would be easy to write html<->cl-who in CL, since the libraries are already there.. then you can call out to the CL code from emacs 2016-10-28T18:21:19Z phoe_: and C++ cannot do AI either because you'll get a dangling pointer before you actually write somethin half-decSegmentation fault (core dumped) 2016-10-28T18:21:48Z mordocai: _death: I'd be fine with that, i've just been too lazy to write the html -> cl-who part (which doesn't exist AFAIK) 2016-10-28T18:21:56Z easye-ipad snorts at phoe_ 2016-10-28T18:21:59Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T18:22:03Z fourier: pjb: universal question! 2016-10-28T18:22:03Z mordocai: _death: With the above I might be able to just change out some magic strings/characters and have a working solution 2016-10-28T18:22:28Z _death: mordocai: perhaps, I didn't check the link 2016-10-28T18:22:30Z jcowan: /topic #lisp, home of putrid AI jokes 2016-10-28T18:23:06Z phoe_: and C can't do it either for other weird reasons.:::AAf% % % )a 3Hello world! 2016-10-28T18:23:16Z phoe_: oops, sorry, forgot to null-terminate that one 2016-10-28T18:24:27Z mordocai wonders if cl-who accepts new patches and if a patch adding html -> cl-who would be accepted. 2016-10-28T18:24:45Z White_Flame: truly, the only language that can implement AI is ... html 2016-10-28T18:24:51Z phoe_: mordocai: https://github.com/edicl/cl-who 2016-10-28T18:24:52Z phoe_: seems so 2016-10-28T18:26:16Z _death: mordocai: I doubt it that it should be accepted.. to do it properly means using an html parser, and why would cl-who depend on that.. seems like it should be its own system 2016-10-28T18:26:42Z raydeejay: the best AI language is Logo 2016-10-28T18:26:52Z raydeejay: it even comes with a sample implementation of turtles 2016-10-28T18:26:57Z easye-ipad quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi) 2016-10-28T18:26:59Z _death: mordocai: (or maybe not an html parser per-se, but a transformation protocol) 2016-10-28T18:27:00Z jcowan: Deep. 2016-10-28T18:27:07Z phoe_: mordocai: https://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/quickstart.html 2016-10-28T18:27:09Z phoe_: you could use that 2016-10-28T18:27:32Z phoe_: and just traverse all of that, recursively collecting stuff like names, attributes and so on into a tree of lists 2016-10-28T18:27:49Z mordocai: phoe_: Yeah, sounds like a good starting point 2016-10-28T18:28:01Z mordocai: _death: Good point, probably would belong as its own system. 2016-10-28T18:28:24Z easye-ipad joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:30:00Z bdr3552 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:31:16Z trueneu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T18:31:19Z easye-ipad quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-28T18:35:50Z _death: also, for some years now I prefer yaclml to cl-who 2016-10-28T18:38:44Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T18:42:30Z mordocai: _death: A quick look at yaclml's cliki page and the doc comments in the source code doesn't lead me to want to use it over cl-who. Seems about the same except I have to put <:blah instead of :blah. What makes you like it better? 2016-10-28T18:42:32Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T18:42:46Z reinisch joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:44:47Z Xach_: i do really like the hack of a package named "<" 2016-10-28T18:44:57Z Xach_: even though I've never used it, i like it very much. 2016-10-28T18:46:17Z _death: the fact that you don't need special operators to "return to lisp".. that it's easy to move forms to functions and create macros for generating html 2016-10-28T18:48:41Z fourier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_App_Store#Supported_platforms interesting to see no lisps there. wondering why - because of limited hardware resources? 2016-10-28T18:50:31Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-28T18:51:27Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T18:51:40Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-28T18:52:14Z phoe_: fourier: that's no excuse 2016-10-28T18:52:29Z phoe_: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11777662 2016-10-28T18:53:01Z fourier: phoe_: yep 2016-10-28T18:53:27Z jokleinn2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-28T18:53:48Z phoe_: fourier: so it's probably because of Reason No. 1 2016-10-28T18:54:13Z phoe_: Reason No. 1: "Nobody made it yet." 2016-10-28T18:55:16Z warweasle quit (Quit: later!) 2016-10-28T18:56:52Z jcowan: "What are technical problems in other languages are social problems in Lisp." 2016-10-28T18:58:59Z phoe_: "What are technical problems in Lisp make people invent other languages that don't fix said problem but introduce new ones." 2016-10-28T19:00:20Z phoe_: bbl 2016-10-28T19:00:46Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:03:58Z mordocai: _death: Hmm... haven't done anything complex enough with cl-who to need to "return to lisp" I suppose. If you have an example of where that helped you with yaclml that'd be interesting. 2016-10-28T19:04:51Z _death: mordocai: for example here is an old (2010), no-longer-used hack to generate mpd statistics.. http://paste.lisp.org/display/329805 maybe try to do the same with cl-who and see what becomes easier/harder 2016-10-28T19:10:17Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:10:58Z mordocai: _death: Thanks! I'll take a look 2016-10-28T19:11:04Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:11:34Z _death: by "do the same" I don't mean reimplement report-html and friends.. just stuff like using functions to generate parts of the html, or writing a with-table-like macro 2016-10-28T19:12:24Z jcowan_ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:12:37Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-28T19:12:51Z jcowan_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-28T19:13:14Z jcowan joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:13:15Z jcowan left #lisp 2016-10-28T19:15:07Z clog joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:16:08Z alaa joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:16:50Z shrdlu68: Hi guys, can I get some help with this? It's an implementation of the p_hash function described in rfc5246. I have a working C version but this doesn't work, for reasons I don't know: http://paste.lisp.org/+72HA 2016-10-28T19:17:22Z shrdlu68: The algorithm is rather simple and it's the comments above the function 2016-10-28T19:17:43Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:18:02Z alaa: I'm trying to change presentation of ratio and complex numbers by defining print-object methods specializing on these. evaluating these definitions has no effect on the printed representation in Slime repl, but directly calling print-object on them produce the expected output! is there any other thing to do? 2016-10-28T19:20:42Z shrdlu68: Here's another version that's closer to the C version: http://paste.lisp.org/+72HD 2016-10-28T19:20:48Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:22:39Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-28T19:22:45Z _death: shrdlu68: you seem to be re-using the digester state 2016-10-28T19:23:32Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T19:24:05Z shrdlu68: _death: Hmm...I was under the impression that the digester state _should_ be reused. 2016-10-28T19:24:49Z remi`bd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T19:25:11Z jasom: mordocai: http://paste.lisp.org/+72HF 2016-10-28T19:25:54Z _death: shrdlu68: to me it looks like HMAC_hash is init/update/final 2016-10-28T19:26:21Z jasom: _death: cl-who needs no special operators for return to lisp; any compound form is evaluated as lisp, right? 2016-10-28T19:26:35Z mordocai: jasom: Noice! One second, going to run it on one of my work html files and see what it gives. 2016-10-28T19:26:55Z jasom: mordocai: feel free to adjust printer settings to make ~s print keywords in lowercase 2016-10-28T19:27:10Z jasom: and I'm off to lunch 2016-10-28T19:27:30Z shrdlu68: _death: Okay, let me try that. 2016-10-28T19:27:46Z reinisch quit (Quit: reinisch) 2016-10-28T19:28:04Z _death: jasom: right, I meant return to cl-who (htm).. 2016-10-28T19:28:04Z rjid left #lisp 2016-10-28T19:30:11Z _death: alaa: maybe set-pprint-dispatch could work for you 2016-10-28T19:32:44Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:36:14Z dmiles: is there any differnce in the Sybol T and NIL from anything that you've defconstanted? 2016-10-28T19:37:15Z _death: they are standard symbols.. otherwise, nope 2016-10-28T19:37:59Z dmiles: you cant set a symbol-function of a defconstant right? 2016-10-28T19:38:02Z White_Flame: I think some platforms keep NIL in a register 2016-10-28T19:38:16Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:39:04Z dmiles: White_Flame: i am keeping a register for T as well that actualyl why i am asking so i can get away with maiing ti a constant 2016-10-28T19:39:07Z White_Flame: dmiles: yeah, you can. It's just a symbol 2016-10-28T19:39:32Z dmiles: thugh i still return type-of BOOLEAN in T 2016-10-28T19:39:36Z _death: dmiles: defconstant entry doesn't mention the function slot, so don't see why not 2016-10-28T19:39:44Z White_Flame: (defconstant +a+ 3) (setf (symbol-function '+a+) (lambda (5)) (+a+) => 5 2016-10-28T19:39:51Z White_Flame: (lambda () 5) ... 2016-10-28T19:41:32Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:41:38Z dmiles: (setf (symbol-function T) (lambda () 5)) (T) ==> 5 .. ok good! 2016-10-28T19:42:06Z _death: dmiles: that is the part where "standard symbols" becomes relevant.. shouldn't do that 2016-10-28T19:42:08Z dmiles: (setf (symbol-function ()) (lambda () 5)) (()) ==> 5 .. nicer even 2016-10-28T19:42:22Z White_Flame: for varying definitions of "nice" :-P 2016-10-28T19:43:04Z dmiles: well i asking because i not wantin to fail the ansi tests after i allow everyting but setting symbol-value on NIL and T 2016-10-28T19:43:11Z rudolfochrist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T19:43:24Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:44:14Z dmiles: basically i am trying to implement them also using the same code that implmented keywords 2016-10-28T19:44:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:44:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-28T19:44:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:44:42Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:45:00Z alaa: I'll try that. I'm using SBCL 1.3.10.59-b5f0e55 (64bits). looking into the source it seems (not 100% sure) that there is no print-object definded for ratio or complex types, rather there is an 'print-ugly-object' method dispatching to the corresponding output-xxx function. where xxx is the name of the type. By the way in LispWorks 6.1 32bits it works, except a warning is signaled and continuing override LW definition. 2016-10-28T19:45:12Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:45:31Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:46:26Z neoncont_ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:46:27Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-28T19:47:31Z alaa: _death: thanks! it worked in SBCL 2016-10-28T19:48:31Z _death: alaa: basically you shouldn't define print-object methods for standard classes 2016-10-28T19:48:54Z dmiles: i am adding the ability for user to program in CL on the LarKC platform.. their mini lisp is in java it makes a separate java cclass between keywords, symbols, T and NIL 2016-10-28T19:49:49Z dmiles: it made sense for NIL since it is a LISTP and needed special treatment 2016-10-28T19:49:59Z phoe_: dmiles: hey, wait, why special treatment for T? 2016-10-28T19:50:06Z phoe_: first of all, anything non-NIL is true 2016-10-28T19:50:19Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-28T19:50:25Z phoe_: and second, it's NIL that's the most magical symbol in Lisp and appears everywhere so it requires special treatment 2016-10-28T19:50:29Z dmiles: the type-of only 2016-10-28T19:50:58Z dmiles: for T is was the type-of only and to make it make nice error messages "You cant set symbol Function ot T" 2016-10-28T19:51:26Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:51:39Z dmiles: for the keywords basically the same reason 2016-10-28T19:52:18Z dmiles: and to prevent deflexical on the keywords 2016-10-28T19:52:21Z alaa: _death: does this mean, for the project I'm working on, I'll need to use eval-when? 2016-10-28T19:52:27Z shrdlu68: _death: It works, thanks! 2016-10-28T19:52:43Z shrdlu68: I was going crazy there. 2016-10-28T19:53:32Z phoe_: ooooh 2016-10-28T19:54:03Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:54:06Z _death: alaa: no.. though you may want to put stuff in different files to control evaluation 2016-10-28T19:54:13Z dmiles: oooh? 2016-10-28T19:54:25Z phoe_: yes, type T in the register sounds like a sane idea 2016-10-28T19:54:48Z nikki93 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-28T19:56:40Z dmiles: oh i made it a real register .. i mean its a global .. i just need reasons to keep it its own class.. https://github.com/TeamSPoon/CYC_JRTL_with_CommonLisp/blob/larkc/platform/src/com/cyc/tool/subl/jrtl/nativeCode/type/symbol/SubLT.java 2016-10-28T19:56:58Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-28T19:59:28Z yoosi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T19:59:56Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-28T19:59:58Z yoosi joined #lisp 2016-10-28T20:05:22Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-28T20:05:37Z ecraven joined #lisp 2016-10-28T20:15:15Z alaa: another thing: Is it possible to shadow a function and not the variable? example: If I wanted to define a new package that redefine '*', then I can not use it to refer to the last value in the REPL. 2016-10-28T20:15:28Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-28T20:15:45Z _death: alaa: no, shadowing is an operation on symbols 2016-10-28T20:15:53Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-28T20:18:58Z _death: you can (define-symbol-macro * cl:*) 2016-10-28T20:18:58Z phoe_: alaa: what _death said 2016-10-28T20:19:40Z _death: though it's a bit different, as it's not a special variable 2016-10-28T20:19:45Z phoe_: also, whenever a symbol in a package refers to *both* a function and a variable/condition/type/slot/class for some reason, you might be in trouble. 2016-10-28T20:20:13Z phoe_: because you can't shadow one without shadowing the others. 2016-10-28T20:20:23Z alaa: _death: thanks, noted. still it will help in REPL during dev 2016-10-28T20:20:32Z alaa: phoe_: thanks also 2016-10-28T20:21:00Z phoe_: alaa: but cases where you might want to shadow CL are rare, mostly when you implement other languages atop CL 2016-10-28T20:21:03Z phoe_: like Parenscript 2016-10-28T20:21:08Z phoe_: which has its own defun and defmacro 2016-10-28T20:21:11Z alaa: yes: APL 2016-10-28T20:21:18Z raydeejay: aeth: ^ room 2016-10-28T20:21:21Z phoe_: and many other operations 2016-10-28T20:21:45Z phoe_: but then again - you might just want to create your own symbol with the same name 2016-10-28T20:22:15Z phoe_: your function for FOO:* may call CL:* for example 2016-10-28T20:22:20Z phoe_: since nobody prevents you from doing that. 2016-10-28T20:22:28Z phoe_: but it might also do other interesting stuff. 2016-10-28T20:22:46Z alaa: phoe_: but how to get my symbol to be updated with repl values 2016-10-28T20:23:25Z _death: you can also hook up to the repl and (setf * cl:* ** cl:** ...) 2016-10-28T20:24:09Z phoe_: _death: hey, does this really work? 2016-10-28T20:24:25Z _death: sure, though hooking up is not in the standard 2016-10-28T20:24:40Z phoe_: _death: not really 2016-10-28T20:24:49Z phoe_: > (progn (setf * :foo) 2) 2016-10-28T20:24:55Z phoe_: > * ;=> 2 2016-10-28T20:25:04Z phoe_: these vars are updated by the REPL itself 2016-10-28T20:25:11Z phoe_: you'd need to rewrite the REPL. 2016-10-28T20:25:24Z alaa: _death: yea mean *slime-repl-eval-hooks* 2016-10-28T20:26:00Z alaa: yea->you 2016-10-28T20:26:11Z alaa: in case of Slime 2016-10-28T20:27:08Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-28T20:28:55Z nilof joined #lisp 2016-10-28T20:28:56Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-28T20:29:16Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T20:30:56Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-28T20:34:57Z jasom: _death: one thing I would change in cl-who is defaulting the string variable to some dynamic variable; then you could call functions that invoke cl-who more easily, though a single-line macro can do that for you 2016-10-28T20:37:14Z _death: jasom: I also like that (<:tabel ...) will warn at compile time.. unless you extend yaclml with such a tag 2016-10-28T20:37:31Z _death: *error 2016-10-28T20:38:22Z jasom: _death: It would be nice if there were an option for that; I use cl-who for generating things that aren't html, and in addition the number of valid html tags is in flux, so as long as there's a way to globally disable that warning I'd be okay with that 2016-10-28T20:38:27Z raydeejay: ^ 2016-10-28T20:41:24Z mordocai: _death: Yeah, if that isn't configurable in yaclml that is a dealbreaker. We use web components 2016-10-28T20:41:31Z _death: the last time I generated html was a while ago anyway.. nowadays it's usually just write json handlers & use react for the client.. though of course it's quite plausible that I'll need to generate html again some time 2016-10-28T20:41:36Z mordocai: I'm not going to extend yalcml for every web component 2016-10-28T20:41:44Z fourier: I want to give some life to my old Sharp Zaurus C3000 with armv5. I've tried to compile CLISP but failed :( any ideas which CL implementation I could try ? 2016-10-28T20:42:05Z _death: mordocai: that's a strange thing to say.. if you have a define-web-component macro it can do that with ease 2016-10-28T20:42:48Z mordocai: _death: My use case as detailed above is to allow me to edit existing html in emacs as s expressions then covert it to html on save. 2016-10-28T20:43:03Z mordocai: _death: Having to define every web component somewhere would be prohibitively annoying 2016-10-28T20:43:32Z _death: mordocai: welp, I am not familiar with the use case enough to make a remark 2016-10-28T20:45:40Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-28T20:46:35Z shrdlu68: fourier: ECL? 2016-10-28T20:48:06Z _death: jasom: btw you can always handler-bind :D 2016-10-28T20:48:49Z jasom: _death: indeed 2016-10-28T20:52:55Z cypher__ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T20:58:58Z pjb: IIRC clisp did work on Zaurus. 2016-10-28T21:03:14Z fourier: pjb: ok then I have to play to compile different versions. Thanks! 2016-10-28T21:04:24Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-28T21:06:05Z drmeister: Are there any x86 experts online? The instruction: movq -0x1,%rax is nonsense - correct? 2016-10-28T21:06:06Z younder: HTML should pretty much ignore the name of tags and rely on CSS for layout. That is in fact the reason HTML5 is (mostly) backward compatible. 2016-10-28T21:07:12Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T21:07:41Z _death: drmeister: why is it nonsense 2016-10-28T21:08:22Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-28T21:10:06Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-28T21:10:52Z Colleen quit (Quit: See you, space cowboy...) 2016-10-28T21:11:09Z Colleen joined #lisp 2016-10-28T21:13:26Z younder: drmeister, 0x1 is 1. - means complement it and add one. so -0x1 = 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF, the q in movq means 4 octets, rax is a 64 bit reg. (historicly we starrted with AX which is 16 bit, with 32 bit computers ir bacame EAX, and with 64 bit RAX. All in the name of backwardcompatabillity) 2016-10-28T21:13:42Z Joanna__ joined #lisp 2016-10-28T21:14:11Z _death: q means qword, 8 octets 2016-10-28T21:15:11Z froggey: drmeister: that's loading a value from address -1, which is never going to be accessible 2016-10-28T21:21:24Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-28T21:22:36Z drmeister: froggey: thanks. It segfaults and it's being generated by llvm as a result of my implementation of defcallback. 2016-10-28T21:24:18Z drmeister: It looks so illegal that it might be a cry for help. 2016-10-28T21:25:49Z froggey: it does, but llvm usually generates ud2 for that 2016-10-28T21:26:11Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-28T21:32:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T21:32:16Z joneshf-laptop quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-28T21:32:33Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T21:33:35Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-10-28T21:35:33Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-10-28T21:40:38Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-28T21:40:54Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-28T21:41:08Z pjb: clang is a joker, it'll generate random code when you write undefined C code :-) 2016-10-28T21:42:35Z dwts: lol 2016-10-28T21:46:47Z bdr3552 left #lisp 2016-10-28T21:48:22Z reinisch joined #lisp 2016-10-28T21:50:52Z fourier: garbage in garbage out :) 2016-10-28T21:52:45Z papachan quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-28T21:55:14Z jasom: ubsan is your friend 2016-10-28T21:56:44Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-28T22:00:41Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-28T22:01:34Z heurist joined #lisp 2016-10-28T22:04:41Z heurist__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-28T22:04:49Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T22:12:11Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T22:12:58Z jasom: mordocai: did the cl-whoize script work? 2016-10-28T22:13:08Z fourier: jasom: wow thanks for the tip on ubsan! 2016-10-28T22:21:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-28T22:23:31Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-28T22:26:02Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-28T22:30:25Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-28T22:30:51Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T22:32:03Z razzy89___ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-28T22:33:26Z Fare has to update, once again, the ASDF traversal algorithm, to, once again, make it more in line with some advanced concepts in CS theory. 2016-10-28T22:34:33Z Fare: Previously, a node's status could already rise in a lattice, as we computed the least fix point of the dependency graph to build a plan. 2016-10-28T22:34:46Z jasom: Fare: where you there when I mentioned the bundle operations sometimes fail with insuficiently specified dependencis, as they a different algorithm from the load-op for generating the order? 2016-10-28T22:34:47Z Fare: But that lattice was simple enough, and concrete enough, etc. 2016-10-28T22:35:11Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-28T22:35:11Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-28T22:35:24Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-28T22:35:28Z Fare: jasom: is it the bug I fixed in !40 ? https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/merge_requests/40 2016-10-28T22:36:03Z jasom: Fare: looks exactly like what I was seeing 2016-10-28T22:36:06Z Fare: that said, if dependencies are insufficiently specified, it's ALSO a bug in the user program. 2016-10-28T22:36:12Z jasom: Fare: of course 2016-10-28T22:36:34Z biocage joined #lisp 2016-10-28T22:37:13Z jasom: Fare: I've seen other build systems offer an option to randomize the order of operations within the bounds of dependencies 2016-10-28T22:37:30Z jasom: Fare: so that you can more easily test that you've fully specified them 2016-10-28T22:37:39Z Fare: Please opine on the web page and tell Robert that you're affected by the bug. 2016-10-28T22:37:59Z Fare: jasom: patches welcome? 2016-10-28T22:38:19Z Fare: but, basically, that's a :around method away for component-depends-on 2016-10-28T22:39:04Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T22:39:30Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-28T22:39:57Z Fare: jasom: you wouldn't be interested in taking over asdf/defsystem, would you? 2016-10-28T22:40:15Z seg joined #lisp 2016-10-28T22:40:42Z Fare needs to write a test case for incremental building when defsystem-depends-on changes, and that's not easy 2016-10-28T22:41:07Z jasom: Fare: if I didn't have 4 kids, I would be. I just can't be responsive enough to feel good about doing it as is. 2016-10-28T22:41:18Z Fare: :-/ 2016-10-28T22:41:22Z Fare: I have only 2, for now. 2016-10-28T22:41:27Z jasom: Fare: wise man 2016-10-28T22:41:49Z Fare: Not exactly wisdom stopping me. 2016-10-28T22:42:25Z jasom: I wasn't planning on 4, but a kid we had previously fostered for over a year was permanently removed from his bio family... 2016-10-28T22:42:55Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-28T22:43:08Z Fare: :-/ 2016-10-28T22:43:22Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T22:43:35Z Fare: As to enforcing dependencies, cross-compilation in separate processes would be nicer in so many ways to randomization. 2016-10-28T22:43:50Z jasom: UIOP did that, correct? 2016-10-28T22:43:55Z Fare: And we could reuse the same tricks as Bazel to make it *fast* (at least on SBCL). 2016-10-28T22:44:01Z Fare: XCVB, you mean. 2016-10-28T22:44:05Z jasom: xcvb right 2016-10-28T22:44:07Z Fare: Yes, XCVB did just that. 2016-10-28T22:44:15Z jasom: too many 4LA's 2016-10-28T22:44:35Z Fare: Basically, XCVB died in favor of ASDF 2, but may be reborn as ASDF 4, someday. 2016-10-28T22:44:39Z jasom: does bazel use fork (2) on Bazel? 2016-10-28T22:44:51Z Fare: jasom: where I come from we call them ETLAs. 2016-10-28T22:44:54Z jasom: s/on Bazel/on sbcl/ 2016-10-28T22:45:21Z Fare: bazel uses java's equivalent to run-program 2016-10-28T22:45:35Z jasom: how is that fast? 2016-10-28T22:45:46Z Fare: no forking on the sbcl side, but instead, a super-fast interpreter to load dependencies. 2016-10-28T22:45:51Z jasom: ah 2016-10-28T22:46:16Z Fare: so it's faster to load all the dependencies using the interpreter than to load the corresponding .fasl 2016-10-28T22:46:33Z jasom: does that prevent cross-dependency inlining? 2016-10-28T22:46:37Z Fare: which also leads to compilation without contention, in a massively parallel way 2016-10-28T22:47:00Z Fare: did SBCL do any great cross-dependency inlining? 2016-10-28T22:47:17Z jasom: Fare: IIRC it always inlines when an inline declaration is in effect 2016-10-28T22:47:44Z Fare: I don't know how that works if defun A is inline interpreted, and you're compiling defun B 2016-10-28T22:48:13Z jasom: If it has the inline information for defun A it should be fine, since it inlines at the s-expression level IIRC. 2016-10-28T22:48:23Z Fare: then no problem. 2016-10-28T22:48:31Z jasom: or IR1 or whatever; it's high-level inlining 2016-10-28T22:48:51Z Fare: I know the QPX guys were really into speed, so if that had prevented significant inlining, they'd have noticed and addressed it. 2016-10-28T22:49:06Z jasom didn't know sbcl had an interpreter that was that fast 2016-10-28T22:50:11Z Fare: I'm reminded that the sbcl patch I sent for linkable sbcl cores was reverted, because it didn't work on a mac and/or on ubuntu 32-on-64, and/or on Windows... 2016-10-28T22:50:15Z jasom: Fare: I may try your patch to asdf and see how many more quicklisp packages will successfully bundle. 2016-10-28T22:51:27Z jasom: Fare: is that a problem if it's optional? There's plenty of optional behaviors that are non-portable on sbcl. 2016-10-28T22:51:36Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-28T22:52:07Z Fare: jasom: it didn't, until dougk made it happen. 2016-10-28T22:52:59Z Fare: jasom: the problem is I didn't have a Mac, Windows and/or Ubuntu-32-on-64 installation, so didn't test and make it properly optional and/or working. 2016-10-28T22:53:04Z jasom: ah 2016-10-28T22:53:33Z Fare: but yeah, it shouldn't be TOO hard, *IF* you have all these environments available. 2016-10-28T22:53:50Z Fare: do you? 2016-10-28T22:54:03Z jasom: All but 32-on-64 2016-10-28T22:54:11Z jasom: And I only have windows 10 and XP 2016-10-28T22:54:31Z Fare: That's more than enough. 2016-10-28T22:54:39Z jasom: I also want to know what I have to do to get the lz4 PR merged in. 2016-10-28T22:54:54Z Fare: 32-on-64 I suppose is installing the proper compiler and libraries so you can do gcc -m32 2016-10-28T22:55:21Z Fare: batteries low :-( 2016-10-28T22:56:01Z jasom: I got something roughly like this for mac testing now that my laptop is linux: http://www.macofalltrades.com/Mac-mini-2-4GHz-C2D-Mid-2010-p/mm-24-m10a.htm 2016-10-28T22:56:31Z Fare: I might steal my wife's mac for a few days. 2016-10-28T22:56:52Z Fare: Or I might find a recipe to build a Hackintosh VM I can run on Linux. 2016-10-28T22:57:06Z jasom: though $300 is expensive for such an old one since new ones are $500 2016-10-28T22:57:10Z Fare: the latter would be ideal 2016-10-28T22:57:22Z Fare: jasom: can it run the latest macOS? 2016-10-28T22:57:53Z Fare: if it can't then it cannot really help build software 2016-10-28T22:58:02Z jasom: Fare: For the one I linked, I'm not sure; I'd have to check; I have a macbook from the same era that can run the latest macOS 2016-10-28T23:00:25Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T23:02:18Z jasom: ugh apple charges $50/GB for ram; time to check if I can upgrade it easily on my own 2016-10-28T23:02:58Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-28T23:03:04Z alaa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-28T23:03:54Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-28T23:04:51Z Fare: jasom: I have many apple-fanatic friends seriously pissed at the latest (lack of) hardware offering, and seriously considering moving to Linux. 2016-10-28T23:04:53Z jibanes joined #lisp 2016-10-28T23:05:22Z jasom: latest mac-minis have soldered on RAM, so you are stuck with what you get from the beginning :( 2016-10-28T23:05:39Z cromachina joined #lisp 2016-10-28T23:06:38Z jasom: and I did my math wrong it's $25/gb 2016-10-28T23:07:25Z jasom: but still ~5x the market rate for ram 2016-10-28T23:07:54Z safe joined #lisp 2016-10-28T23:09:41Z Fare: nothing says "Hackintosh" like an outrageously limited hardware offering. 2016-10-28T23:10:04Z Fare: I have a friend pissed he can't get a 32GB+ Mac. 2016-10-28T23:10:22Z jasom: yeah, I have 32GB in my laptop with 2 dimm slots unpopulated 2016-10-28T23:10:24Z Fare: Apple is pissing off its most devoted zealots. 2016-10-28T23:10:25Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-28T23:10:39Z biocage: Fare: You still have a lisp machine? 2016-10-28T23:10:47Z Fare: biocage: kind of. 2016-10-28T23:10:49Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-28T23:11:03Z biocage: Fare: I think you had a MacIvory setup? 2016-10-28T23:11:04Z Fare: Haven't used it in years; I might have to change the Mac rtclock batteries again. 2016-10-28T23:11:31Z Fare: Well, I left it behind in France. Shipping it is a pain. 2016-10-28T23:11:40Z jasom was never a mac fanboy, but there was a 5-10 year period where pretty much the only good laptops were macs. 2016-10-28T23:12:36Z biocage: Fare: Is anyone selling hardware these days? 2016-10-28T23:15:11Z Fare: at what price? 2016-10-28T23:15:16Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-28T23:15:26Z Fare: If you make an offer... 2016-10-28T23:15:49Z Fare: I was thinking of donating mine to a museum in Switzerland. 2016-10-28T23:16:56Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-28T23:17:09Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-10-28T23:19:24Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-28T23:19:59Z Fare: biocage, do you have a better offer to make? 2016-10-28T23:20:08Z biocage: Fare: maybe, not sure what such a thing is worth these days 2016-10-28T23:20:19Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-28T23:20:23Z Fare: how much is it worth to you? 2016-10-28T23:20:24Z biocage: Fare: And I like the museum angle - I was at Living Computer Museum and they didn't have a Lisp Machine. I was disappointed. 2016-10-28T23:20:36Z Fare: where was it? 2016-10-28T23:20:43Z biocage: Seattle, WA 2016-10-28T23:23:17Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-28T23:24:40Z biocage: Fare: Are you in Switzerland now? 2016-10-28T23:25:28Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-28T23:27:36Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-28T23:28:34Z jasom: anyway 2597 systems have been succesfully converted to nix expressions; the remainder of systems in quicklisp have failed to do so. 2016-10-28T23:29:19Z jasom: though it should be noted I'm only running with sbcl 64-bit so far; there are a few hundred systems that just won't quickload on sbcl 64-bit 2016-10-28T23:30:45Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-28T23:31:10Z jasom: and my only test so far is "Can I load it with asdf" 2016-10-28T23:35:12Z jasom: now time to get it working with all the lisps in nix 2016-10-28T23:42:04Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-10-28T23:46:44Z nilof: So I downloaded Lispworks to give it a try, my first impression is that it looks a lot like a smalltalk environment 2016-10-28T23:47:54Z nilof: Is this not a coincidence or is the analogy horribly misguided? 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2016-10-29T01:31:26Z Xach_: vtomole: what system are you trying to load? 2016-10-29T01:31:48Z vtomole: (asdf:load-system "drakma") 2016-10-29T01:32:14Z Xach_: vtomole: that kind of error usually happens with a print-object method that has problems, and it can sometimes mask the real error because the debugger errors trying to show the real problem. 2016-10-29T01:32:29Z Xach_: vtomole: what implementation are you using? 2016-10-29T01:32:50Z vtomole: I cloned this earlier today https://github.com/edicl/drakma 2016-10-29T01:36:38Z vtomole: (ql:quickload "drakma") works fine... 2016-10-29T01:37:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-29T01:38:19Z Xach_: Are you up for some troubleshooting? 2016-10-29T01:38:30Z vtomole: YES! :D 2016-10-29T01:39:05Z vtomole: honestly ive looked at this for the past 2 hrs already 2016-10-29T01:39:14Z Xach_: What implementation are you using? 2016-10-29T01:39:49Z vtomole: SBCL 1.3.1.debian 2016-10-29T01:40:01Z Xach_: vtomole: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "drakma")? 2016-10-29T01:41:13Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T01:41:59Z vtomole: #P"/home/vtomole/quicklisp/local-projects/drakma/" 2016-10-29T01:42:23Z Xach_: vtomole: and (ql:quickload "drakma") completes without a problem? 2016-10-29T01:44:11Z vtomole: No it also says undefined function during printing like (asdf:load-system) did 2016-10-29T01:44:15Z vtomole: it worked before 2016-10-29T01:45:04Z Xach_: vtomole: what does the backtrace look like when you get that error? can you paste to paste.lisp.org? 2016-10-29T01:45:12Z vtomole: okay I opened a new slime and that works now 2016-10-29T01:45:58Z Xach_: What works now? 2016-10-29T01:46:04Z Xach_: quickload? 2016-10-29T01:46:06Z vtomole: (asdf:load system) works. I guess i should have tried the old trick of turning off and turning on again before i came here.... 2016-10-29T01:47:25Z Xach_: some state got stated up 2016-10-29T01:47:34Z Xach_: glad to help! 2016-10-29T01:48:45Z vtomole: Thank you! I'm really confused about linking systems, what is that about? 2016-10-29T01:48:50Z vtomole: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html 4.1 on here 2016-10-29T01:50:10Z Xach_: The "link farm" thing? 2016-10-29T01:51:19Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-29T01:51:30Z OhBoyHereWeGo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T01:51:35Z vtomole: yeah i dont need that right? all i need to do is (require "asdf") and (push "/home/me/src/foo/" asdf:*central-registry*) 2016-10-29T01:51:50Z vtomole: Then i can (asdf:load-system) right? 2016-10-29T01:51:59Z Xach_: vtomole: sure, that's one way to do it. 2016-10-29T01:52:22Z vtomole: It's the simplest one so i'll always use it :) 2016-10-29T01:52:35Z Xach_: The point is that you could also have (push "/home/to/links/" asdf:*central-registry*) and then ln -s ~/src/foo/foo.asd ~/links/ 2016-10-29T01:52:47Z Xach_: Then instead of adding every new project to central registry, you symlink it to ~/links/ 2016-10-29T01:53:03Z Xach_: I don't use symlinks 2016-10-29T01:53:12Z Xach_: I usually create stuff in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ instead. 2016-10-29T01:53:59Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-29T01:54:17Z vtomole: So if i have my project in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ then i don't need links? 2016-10-29T01:54:54Z Xach_: No. It will be found automatically, if you put it directly in that directory. 2016-10-29T01:55:08Z Xach_: (If you put it a level deeper you do have to use (ql:register-local-projects)) 2016-10-29T01:55:38Z vtomole: It will find with (asdf:load system) and (ql:quickload) ? 2016-10-29T01:56:27Z Xach_: vtomole: Yes. It extends asdf's system file search to automagically find stuff there. 2016-10-29T01:57:04Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-29T01:57:52Z Xach_: I think ~/common-lisp/ is similar, but it works without loading quicklisp. 2016-10-29T01:58:10Z vtomole: I see, thank you. 2016-10-29T02:04:38Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-29T02:05:50Z biocage quit (Quit: w00) 2016-10-29T02:08:01Z nilof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T02:12:19Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-29T02:14:40Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T02:16:51Z MetaHert` joined #lisp 2016-10-29T02:20:20Z MetaHertz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T02:39:38Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T02:39:56Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-10-29T02:43:21Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-29T02:47:56Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T02:49:40Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T02:56:03Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-29T02:56:41Z heddwch is now known as FairyFly 2016-10-29T02:57:27Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-29T02:58:33Z FairyFly is now known as FuryFly 2016-10-29T02:58:44Z FuryFly is now known as SupaFly 2016-10-29T02:59:02Z SupaFly is now known as wch 2016-10-29T03:03:07Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-29T03:10:47Z wch is now known as WCH 2016-10-29T03:16:28Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-29T03:19:06Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-10-29T03:19:07Z JoshYoshi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-29T03:20:17Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2016-10-29T03:20:37Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-29T03:21:06Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T03:21:54Z creat joined #lisp 2016-10-29T03:25:37Z creat quit (Changing host) 2016-10-29T03:25:37Z creat joined #lisp 2016-10-29T03:28:21Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-10-29T03:36:39Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-29T03:43:21Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-29T03:46:56Z nikki93 quit 2016-10-29T03:49:08Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T03:54:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:00:20Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:05:22Z MetaHert` quit (Quit: Всем пока! // Goodbye everyone!) 2016-10-29T04:06:03Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:08:40Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:09:21Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T04:16:35Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:20:05Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T04:21:16Z safe joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:25:41Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T04:28:17Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:29:32Z razzy89___ quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T04:30:56Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:32:19Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T04:33:00Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-29T04:35:44Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:37:10Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T04:42:17Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T04:44:12Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:45:52Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:47:32Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:47:43Z xrash quit (Excess Flood) 2016-10-29T04:49:57Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-29T04:50:22Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-29T04:58:38Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T05:01:05Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T05:01:07Z NeverDie_ is now known as NeverDie 2016-10-29T05:02:17Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T05:02:55Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-29T05:04:00Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T05:05:03Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-29T05:08:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T05:11:44Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T05:12:02Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-29T05:12:26Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-29T05:12:49Z defaultxr: i know i can do (setf (slotname object) 1) and set the 'slotname' slot of OBJECT to 1. what if i have a variable X that contains the slot name, though-- i want to call the setf function for the slot X's value refers to. i can't just do (setf (X object) 1) so how should i do it? 2016-10-29T05:13:12Z yrdz`` joined #lisp 2016-10-29T05:13:25Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-29T05:14:17Z yrdz` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-29T05:14:56Z Bike: clhs slot-value 2016-10-29T05:14:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm 2016-10-29T05:15:00Z Bike: do that 2016-10-29T05:15:31Z PuercoPop: defaultxr: you can't do (setf (slotname object) 1). You can do (setf (accessor object) 1) 2016-10-29T05:15:59Z defaultxr: yeah, sorry, that is what i meant 2016-10-29T05:16:18Z PuercoPop: defaultxr: what Bike said should solve your problem though 2016-10-29T05:17:32Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-29T05:19:06Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-29T05:19:29Z defaultxr: well, i have setf expanders made for slots that don't actually exist in the class is the problem... like (setf (db foo) 3) doesn't actually set the 'db' slot of FOO, it converts 3 to a different value and then calls (setf (amp foo) converted-value) instead 2016-10-29T05:20:13Z Bike: ok, then your original question is not what you wanted to ask 2016-10-29T05:20:29Z Bike: if they're your functions, you could set up your own mapping 2016-10-29T05:20:44Z sdothum quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T05:22:04Z defaultxr: yeah, sorry, i'm still learning lisp and not familiar with the exact terminology for everything yet 2016-10-29T05:23:51Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-29T05:26:34Z defaultxr: so for example, say i have a length class, and it only has an 'inches' slot. but i've written (defmethod (setf centimeters) (value (item length)) (setf (inches item) (cm-to-inches value))). so if i try to set the centimeters of an instance of 'length', it automatically converts the cm to inches and sets the inches slot 2016-10-29T05:27:20Z Bike: sure. 2016-10-29T05:27:41Z defaultxr: but then i have the variable X which has the value 'centimeters and i want to do something like (setf (X length-instance) 3) 2016-10-29T05:28:15Z defaultxr: are you saying i should just not use setf methods like that and just write (defun set-cm (object cm) ...) instead? 2016-10-29T05:28:40Z Bike: no, doing that is ok. you just need a map from names to functions. 2016-10-29T05:29:21Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-10-29T05:29:56Z defaultxr: what do you mean? 2016-10-29T05:31:00Z Bike: like, you could do (defun (setf extended-slot) (new-value object extended-slot-name) (case extended-slot-name ((centimeters) (setf (centimeters object) new-value)) ...)) and then (setf (extended-slot-name object x) ...) 2016-10-29T05:31:16Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-10-29T05:31:18Z Bike: (you can define setf functions like that, if you were unaware) 2016-10-29T05:46:19Z defaultxr: i think i was overthinking it. basically what i wanted was this: (funcall (fdefinition (list 'setf X)) value object). just doing (fdefinition (list 'setf X)) gets the setf function without having to do the extended slot thing 2016-10-29T05:46:44Z defaultxr: i'm bad with terminology so i probably explained it wrong. thank you for your help though, i appreciate it 2016-10-29T05:46:44Z Bike: well. yeah, but then it's not setf syntax. 2016-10-29T05:46:51Z Bike: no prob 2016-10-29T05:49:00Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-29T05:49:10Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-10-29T05:56:13Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-29T06:05:00Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T06:13:55Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-10-29T06:16:14Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-29T06:27:50Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-29T06:29:40Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-29T06:31:52Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-29T06:34:08Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T06:36:05Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-10-29T06:43:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-29T06:50:56Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-29T06:57:00Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-29T07:00:37Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:01:28Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:04:30Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T07:05:09Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T07:13:17Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:18:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-29T07:19:05Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:19:13Z attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 2016-10-29T07:19:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-29T07:19:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:20:46Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:26:36Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-29T07:27:05Z gniourf joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:28:47Z letothesecond joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:33:20Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:34:23Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-29T07:41:43Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:45:20Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:48:49Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-29T07:51:23Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:54:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T07:55:53Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-29T07:59:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T08:04:07Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T08:08:22Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T08:12:55Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-29T08:21:49Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T08:25:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-29T08:30:37Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-29T08:33:39Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-29T08:35:14Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-29T08:38:41Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-29T08:39:21Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-29T08:39:35Z Jameser quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-29T08:40:23Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-29T08:41:25Z flacko joined #lisp 2016-10-29T08:42:24Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-29T08:43:22Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-29T08:49:44Z tigg joined #lisp 2016-10-29T08:54:46Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T08:58:23Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-29T09:00:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T09:04:22Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-29T09:04:53Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:05:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:05:47Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T09:09:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T09:10:32Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:11:33Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-29T09:11:56Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:15:50Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-29T09:21:16Z dan` joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:22:54Z phoe_: Good morning, beach! 2016-10-29T09:23:18Z beach: phoe_: What's up? 2016-10-29T09:27:05Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:27:11Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-29T09:28:37Z dan`: hi guys. A q please. If I bind a global special variable as a function parameter, and I modify it, all code executed during the lifetime of this binding form will see the modified vale. When I exit the scope of the binding, the old value is restored in the special varibale. This is my understanding so far. Please correct me if I got it wrong. Now,what will I see in the global varibale if I execute code in another thread, in paralel and 2016-10-29T09:28:37Z dan`: at the same time with the form binding the global varibale ? 2016-10-29T09:29:33Z beach: dan`: Usually, bindings are per-thread, except the global binding. 2016-10-29T09:29:43Z H4ns: bindings are local to a thread, i.e. when you create a thread, the global bindings will be in effect for that thread 2016-10-29T09:29:47Z beach: dan`: But the Common Lisp HyperSpec says nothing about threads, so it is up to the implementation. 2016-10-29T09:30:06Z dan`: I see 2016-10-29T09:30:48Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:30:51Z phoe_: SBCL, for example, does not preserve dynamic binding. 2016-10-29T09:30:56Z phoe_: (defvar *x* 3) 2016-10-29T09:31:15Z phoe_: (let ((*x* 5)) (make-thread (lambda () (print *x*)))) 2016-10-29T09:31:21Z phoe_: This will print 3 on SBCL, AFAIK. 2016-10-29T09:31:29Z rjid left #lisp 2016-10-29T09:31:34Z H4ns: right. the global bindings are in effect for new threads. 2016-10-29T09:31:38Z dan`: Ill try it , I installed sbcl + slime for leraning 2016-10-29T09:35:39Z dan`: and can you guys pls recommand a small (as in manageable to read code base ) which shows good Lisp code ? Im almost halfway through Graham;s Ansi CL and I started to wrote a small project to consolidate what I learned , but I want to look at something to help me see how I should structure the code , idioms and so on. I used C most of my life so Im like in a foreign country now 2016-10-29T09:37:29Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:38:14Z Indecipherable quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-29T09:38:29Z phoe_: dan`: Lisp Koans perhaps? 2016-10-29T09:38:37Z beach: dan`: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clump 2016-10-29T09:38:39Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T09:38:54Z phoe_: They're more like small exercises, but they have mostly good Lisp. 2016-10-29T09:39:12Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:39:14Z Indecipherable joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:39:27Z dan`: thanks ! 2016-10-29T09:40:16Z beach: dan`: The coding style of Paul Graham is a bit unusual. 2016-10-29T09:40:28Z phoe_: The side effect is - you are required to fix the Koans on your own, so you can check your Lisp understanding in meantime. 2016-10-29T09:44:50Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:45:13Z dan`: I see 2016-10-29T09:45:16Z dan`: tahts good 2016-10-29T09:46:29Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:48:51Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T09:48:52Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:50:38Z dan`: I am excited about lisp, a feeling no toehr langauge except C managed to instill in me. Im having fun while leraning and I love it. Thanks for your recomandations guys 2016-10-29T09:50:56Z beach: Anytime! 2016-10-29T09:52:25Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-10-29T09:52:48Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:53:27Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T09:55:13Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-10-29T09:55:18Z phoe_: dan`: that's a peculiar thing 2016-10-29T09:55:40Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-29T09:55:42Z phoe_: only two languages other than various kinds of assembly were used to construct an operating system from head to toe 2016-10-29T09:55:45Z phoe_: Lisp and C 2016-10-29T09:56:10Z beach: phoe_: Not true. 2016-10-29T09:56:10Z dan`: oh, I had no ideea Lisp was used for that 2016-10-29T09:56:18Z dan`: maybe I should read abt old imes as well 2016-10-29T09:56:20Z phoe_: and by toe I mean hardware interoperation and by head I mean user interoperation. 2016-10-29T09:56:22Z phoe_: beach: oh? 2016-10-29T09:56:44Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multics 2016-10-29T09:57:03Z beach: In fact, Multics PL/I inspired the Common Lisp condition system. 2016-10-29T09:57:33Z phoe_: Ooh. I haven't heard that one. 2016-10-29T09:57:55Z beach: Computing history is important to know. 2016-10-29T09:57:56Z phoe_: So it's PL/I, Lisp and C. 2016-10-29T09:57:57Z dan`: and there are Wirt's Oberon which was written in non C 2016-10-29T09:58:08Z beach: Indeed. 2016-10-29T09:58:33Z phoe_: So it's Oberon, PL/I, Lisp and C. 2016-10-29T09:58:48Z beach: Oberon is the OS. 2016-10-29T09:58:48Z phoe_: Good to know! 2016-10-29T09:59:10Z phoe_: Oh, wait. 2016-10-29T09:59:14Z phoe_: Let me google some more. 2016-10-29T10:00:00Z beach: Oh, sorry. I guess the language was called Oberon as well. 2016-10-29T10:00:35Z phoe_: Yep, that's what http://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ProjectOberon/PO.System.pdf tells me. 2016-10-29T10:02:46Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-29T10:08:48Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-29T10:13:33Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T10:14:20Z TMA: phoe_: and ESPOL and NEWP (both derivatives of ALGOL): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_MCP 2016-10-29T10:16:15Z JuanDaugherty: oh my 2016-10-29T10:17:00Z JuanDaugherty: i placed the image on that page from the acm monograph 2016-10-29T10:17:37Z JuanDaugherty: well 2016-10-29T10:18:12Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T10:18:19Z JuanDaugherty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_large_systems 2016-10-29T10:20:21Z JuanDaugherty: espol and newp were only used to boot a new mcp 2016-10-29T10:20:46Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-29T10:22:07Z JuanDaugherty: although they would have been a natural match there was little lisp-burroughs interaction but there were compilers 2016-10-29T10:22:48Z dan`: beach: R. Strandh's repository you pointed me too is very very nice packages, conditions, split in multiple files , thanks man 2016-10-29T10:22:50Z JuanDaugherty: in spite of their CS profile, they mostly filled a biz niche 2016-10-29T10:24:24Z phoe_: dan`: actually, beach *is* R. Strandh 2016-10-29T10:24:46Z phoe_: (but that's an easter egg) 2016-10-29T10:26:27Z JuanDaugherty didn wanna say anything 2016-10-29T10:27:09Z JuanDaugherty: possibly i think because I was once misdirected that strandh nicht beach war 2016-10-29T10:31:25Z dan`: oh 2016-10-29T10:31:36Z dan`: nice to meet you then =) 2016-10-29T10:33:45Z dan`: and speakig about OSe, I think Ada was used too to write embeded OSes 2016-10-29T10:33:46Z MetaHertz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T10:34:03Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-10-29T10:51:42Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-29T10:52:19Z beach: dan`: Thanks! 2016-10-29T11:00:23Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-29T11:02:34Z phadthai: and BCPL, C++, Fortran, Forth 2016-10-29T11:03:14Z beach: Yes, the OS on Norsk Data was written in Fortran. 2016-10-29T11:03:19Z beach: I had forgotten about that. 2016-10-29T11:03:26Z beach: "Sintran" was it? 2016-10-29T11:05:23Z beach: Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintran 2016-10-29T11:09:32Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T11:09:47Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-29T11:09:59Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T11:11:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T11:12:32Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-29T11:16:43Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-29T11:18:09Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2016-10-29T11:18:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-10-29T11:20:23Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-10-29T11:26:18Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-29T11:30:14Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-29T11:36:30Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T11:37:46Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T11:39:33Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2016-10-29T11:44:10Z azzamsa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T11:48:20Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-29T11:53:13Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-29T11:55:00Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-29T11:57:06Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-29T11:57:54Z nilof joined #lisp 2016-10-29T11:59:58Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-29T12:03:03Z creat joined #lisp 2016-10-29T12:06:55Z creat quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-29T12:08:10Z creat joined #lisp 2016-10-29T12:09:51Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-29T12:10:14Z MetaHertz quit (Quit: Всем пока! // Goodbye everyone!) 2016-10-29T12:19:28Z younder quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-10-29T12:19:53Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I tried "unix-opts" but wasn't very happy with the fact that I have to wrap things inside an .sh file 2016-10-29T14:03:49Z Anselmo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-29T14:06:55Z zeroish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-29T14:09:37Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:13:15Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:17:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:17:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-29T14:17:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:18:15Z Anselmo joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:20:57Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:26:33Z phoe_: dwts: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php ? 2016-10-29T14:27:04Z phoe_: and Rosetta Code provides a somewhat smaller way if you feel like copying it over 2016-10-29T14:27:05Z phoe_: https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Command-line_arguments#Common_Lisp 2016-10-29T14:28:46Z dwts: interesting 2016-10-29T14:28:52Z Fare: dwts: not sure what you mean by 'unix-like command line' 2016-10-29T14:28:55Z dwts: phoe_: thank you very much, will check both out 2016-10-29T14:29:01Z Fare: there's command-line-arguments and CLON 2016-10-29T14:29:45Z Fare: if you like fancy, you'll love CLON. If you like minimal, you might enjoy command-line-arguments. 2016-10-29T14:29:48Z dwts: Fare: command line arguments for common lisp code like in every language aka progname -a -b bparam etc 2016-10-29T14:29:58Z dwts: will check clon 2016-10-29T14:30:23Z Fare: as for creating an executable, use either cl-launch or asdf:program-op 2016-10-29T14:30:35Z Fare: or maybe buildapp 2016-10-29T14:30:50Z dwts: isn't asdf abandoned? 2016-10-29T14:31:03Z Fare: I use command-line-arguments, but then I'm biased. 2016-10-29T14:31:09Z Fare: asdf isn't abandoned. 2016-10-29T14:31:19Z Fare: Are you confused with asdf-install? xcvb? 2016-10-29T14:31:37Z Fare: That said, if you don't like asdf, there's bazel that has potential. 2016-10-29T14:32:07Z Fare: dwts: I'm working on asdf right now, to fix its incremental build in presence of defsystem-depends-on 2016-10-29T14:32:21Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-29T14:32:26Z dwts: I might be confused with asdf-install, I come from a scheme background so some things are new to me 2016-10-29T14:37:36Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:39:05Z dwts: Fare: is there somewhere documented how to handle command-line-arguments in each implementation? The rosetta code doesn't seem like a usable example to me 2016-10-29T14:39:10Z dwts: or maybe I'm missing somethign 2016-10-29T14:39:13Z dwts: something 2016-10-29T14:42:05Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:42:12Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:42:13Z rocx joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:42:22Z toogley quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T14:46:21Z beach: dwts: There is a system called command-line-arguments that is available in quicklisp. 2016-10-29T14:47:06Z beach: dwts: Presumably, that library turns the implementation-specific ways of handling command-line arguments into something that looks the same across implementations. 2016-10-29T14:47:39Z hel-io joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:48:04Z beach: dwts: https://github.com/fare/command-line-arguments 2016-10-29T14:48:13Z hel-io quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T14:48:43Z dwts: checking 2016-10-29T14:54:09Z dwts: still not sure how to use the code 2016-10-29T14:55:12Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-29T14:57:26Z beach: The Usage on that web site looks pretty clear to me. 2016-10-29T14:58:27Z Fare: dwts: (uiop:command-line-arguments) 2016-10-29T14:59:09Z Fare: command-line-arguments is a library for parsing said command-line arguments, in simple cases 2016-10-29T14:59:19Z Fare: for a fancy schmancy library, try CLON 2016-10-29T14:59:30Z dwts: not to sound offensive or anything but this is a paste from the page: This library is woefully under-documented. 2016-10-29T14:59:32Z Fare: for just grabbing the arguments, try uiop 2016-10-29T14:59:49Z dwts: will check if clon is better documented 2016-10-29T14:59:53Z dwts: thank you Fare 2016-10-29T14:59:53Z Fare: for dispatching to subcommands, try cl-launch/dispatch and maybe also cl-scripting 2016-10-29T15:00:42Z Fare: dwts: under-documented doesn't mean unusable. But yes, you might want to help document it. Or, if you like fancy, try CLON, which is over-documented. 2016-10-29T15:01:36Z Fare: dwts: if you tell us what exactly you're trying to do, we can help further, but from what you tell us we can only drop names. 2016-10-29T15:01:43Z dwts: Fare: I never said it's unusable. I said I can't use it because it's underdocumented. I want to help yes, but I need to understand how to use it before I help ;> 2016-10-29T15:01:46Z Fare: beach: chao` anh 2016-10-29T15:02:00Z beaky: hello 2016-10-29T15:02:10Z beach: Fare: chào em. 2016-10-29T15:02:12Z beaky: what is the etymology of the 'prog' family of macros 2016-10-29T15:02:29Z beach: Fare: I got to practice my Vietnamese recently in Sweden. Twice in fact. 2016-10-29T15:03:03Z Fare: beach, I started using Duolingo seriously > 2 months ago. 2016-10-29T15:03:17Z dwts: Fare: so, supposing that I load the example code in the command-line-arguments page, In say a test.lisp file, how can I run it? 2016-10-29T15:03:17Z beach: Nice! 2016-10-29T15:04:03Z Fare: to^i dda~ ba('t da^`u du`ng duolingo hai tha'ng tru+o+'c (is that correct?) 2016-10-29T15:04:37Z Fare: dwts: first, learn to use e.g. cl-launch 2016-10-29T15:04:47Z Fare: THEN parse the arguments with command-line-arguments 2016-10-29T15:05:11Z beach: I am afraid I can't read that. :) But you are saying you used it for two months I think. 2016-10-29T15:05:11Z Fare: or just asdf:program-op if you don't want cl-launch 2016-10-29T15:05:36Z Fare: something like that :-/ 2016-10-29T15:05:58Z Fare: will you be at ELS2017? Are you coorganizing? 2016-10-29T15:06:21Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:06:24Z Fare: I may or may not have more ASDF news by then. Dunno if they are worthy, though. 2016-10-29T15:06:32Z beach: Me? I'll be there, and I will probably be on the program committee. 2016-10-29T15:06:55Z Fare: Who cares if CL has correct incremental builds? No one relies on it anyway :-/ 2016-10-29T15:08:07Z Fare: I feel that my current work on asdf is "acharnement thérapeutique" 2016-10-29T15:08:24Z Fare: how's SICL going? 2016-10-29T15:08:24Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-29T15:08:46Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-10-29T15:08:52Z dwts: Fare: I'm using #!/usr/bin/clisp as the first line of my file, and (require uiop) 2016-10-29T15:09:00Z Fare: dwts, you might look at my tthsum example repo 2016-10-29T15:09:04Z beach: Fare: Making slow but steady progress. Bike has recently gotten involved and he finished the type inferencer I started. 2016-10-29T15:09:06Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:09:16Z dwts: checking 2016-10-29T15:09:23Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/tthsum/ 2016-10-29T15:09:57Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-29T15:09:59Z beach: Time to go prepare dinner. I might be back later. 2016-10-29T15:10:28Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T15:10:54Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-29T15:11:08Z Fare: dwts: until is has a serious new maintainer again, I disrecommend using clisp. 2016-10-29T15:11:32Z Fare: dwts: the symptom would be an actual new release since 2010. 2016-10-29T15:11:34Z dwts: i also have sbcl installed 2016-10-29T15:11:54Z Fare: I recommend sbcl over clisp on systems that can run it. 2016-10-29T15:13:33Z beaky: sbcl is great 2016-10-29T15:14:10Z dwts: so, how can I install UIOP to my system? ti says: *** - LOAD: A file with name UIOP does not exist 2016-10-29T15:14:21Z dwts: which means it's not installed I guess for my system 2016-10-29T15:15:49Z DavidGu1 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:18:07Z Guest11127 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T15:19:12Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T15:19:13Z DavidGu1 is now known as DavidGu 2016-10-29T15:22:11Z Fare: (require "asdf") 2016-10-29T15:22:46Z Fare: on sbcl you can get uiop without asdf, with (require "uiop") 2016-10-29T15:24:24Z dwts: Fare: maybe I'm trying to run it in false way? I'm using sbcl --script test.lisp 2016-10-29T15:25:52Z Fare: I recommend using cl-launch -- but of course I'm biased 2016-10-29T15:27:05Z loke```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T15:27:32Z dwts: installed cl-lauch 2016-10-29T15:27:35Z dwts: let me try again 2016-10-29T15:28:59Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu) 2016-10-29T15:29:14Z Pent joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:29:42Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:31:46Z ak5 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-29T15:33:13Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-29T15:33:45Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-29T15:34:17Z dwts: nope :) 2016-10-29T15:34:45Z macdavid314 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:35:13Z macdavid313 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-29T15:37:02Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:38:08Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:39:02Z macdavid314 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T15:39:16Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T15:40:36Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:41:36Z Fare: what's the issue? 2016-10-29T15:41:42Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:43:37Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:45:13Z loke` joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:46:17Z dwts: I fail to understand, thank you for your time in any case Fare 2016-10-29T15:47:27Z macdavid313 quit (Quit: macdavid313) 2016-10-29T15:48:00Z macdavid313_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:48:29Z macdavid313_ is now known as macdavid313 2016-10-29T15:48:42Z macdavid313 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T15:48:53Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:50:33Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-29T15:53:52Z Anselmo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-29T15:54:13Z Anselmo joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:56:18Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-29T15:58:30Z macdavid313 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T15:58:49Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-29T16:00:11Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:03:06Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T16:03:50Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:04:31Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-29T16:05:34Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:06:45Z pipping: dwts: if you have cl-launch installed as `cl` and sbcl as `sbcl`, then the following should print your $PWD: cl -l sbcl --require uiop '(uiop:getcwd)' 2016-10-29T16:08:41Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:09:23Z heurist`_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:09:34Z pipping: dwts: furthermore, there's this simple `echo`-type project that shows how to use asdf's program-op to create a standalone executable and obtain the command line arguments: https://github.com/pipping/cl-echo 2016-10-29T16:10:23Z dwts: pipping: my problem is that I don't understand how to run the code. All the examples I found after a lot of searching are either with little or no documentation at all. I also have the impression that I need to add lines to the existing code myself for the sample code to work which doesn't make sense to me to be honest 2016-10-29T16:10:36Z dwts: checking the gh repo 2016-10-29T16:10:47Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-29T16:11:21Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-29T16:11:42Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T16:12:07Z Baggers: pipping: great stuff. I was a bit concerned that sbcl is still using asdf 3.1.5, does this affect anything in program-op you are aware of? 2016-10-29T16:12:40Z pipping: for cl-echo example: as the readme says, you should only need to run `sbcl --no-sysinit --no-userinit --script build.lisp` to get an executable named `echo` in your $PWD. you can then call it e.g. via `./echo arg1 arg2 arg3` 2016-10-29T16:13:11Z Amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T16:13:33Z Baggers: maybe it was only for static linking 2016-10-29T16:13:45Z Baggers memory is failing him 2016-10-29T16:14:05Z dwts: pipping: that is the first code sample that includes info on how to use the code 2016-10-29T16:14:07Z dwts: thank you 2016-10-29T16:14:22Z pipping: Baggers: I don't recall any fixes to program-op after 3.1.5 that would e.g. play a role on sbcl, but Fare would know better. If you're on CMU CL, then even 3.1.7 won't work but there's a fix for that on the master branch 2016-10-29T16:14:36Z pipping: dwts: I'm happy if it works :) 2016-10-29T16:15:30Z dwts: pipping: seems like it compiled successfully and it works 2016-10-29T16:16:54Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:17:08Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T16:17:17Z Guest56226 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:17:48Z toogley quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T16:18:05Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:18:12Z toogley quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T16:21:24Z PuercoPop: 11:13 [09:29:02] phoe_: thank you very much, will check both out 2016-10-29T16:21:32Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:21:36Z PuercoPop: sorry about that 2016-10-29T16:22:18Z dwts: sorry about what? 2016-10-29T16:23:31Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:24:23Z toogley quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T16:25:01Z pipping: dwts: it seems PuercoPop pasted that line by accident 2016-10-29T16:25:28Z dwts: ah 2016-10-29T16:25:48Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:26:13Z toogley quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T16:27:24Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:27:45Z toogley quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T16:27:54Z dwts: going afk for now, will try again later 2016-10-29T16:28:04Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:28:20Z toogley quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T16:28:46Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:28:57Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-29T16:29:01Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:29:25Z toogley quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T16:29:28Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T16:29:58Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:30:04Z toogley quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T16:30:37Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:33:52Z pavelpenev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T16:36:31Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:37:02Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-29T16:37:14Z Howling joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:38:07Z Howling quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-29T16:38:43Z Amplituhedron joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:38:46Z Howling joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:39:21Z Howling quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-10-29T16:39:57Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-29T16:40:48Z Indecipherable quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T16:42:52Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:45:17Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:45:21Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-29T16:48:38Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:49:22Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:49:28Z jack_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:49:30Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:49:53Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T16:52:15Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:53:47Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-10-29T16:57:02Z nullniverse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T16:58:06Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:00:33Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:01:46Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T17:05:57Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:09:38Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-29T17:10:39Z pipping: dwts: so, if the simple echo program works as expected for you, that's great. 2016-10-29T17:11:05Z pipping: dwts: I've just pushed another branch to that example which shows how to use the command-line-arguments library: https://github.com/pipping/cl-echo/tree/fancy-command-line-arguments 2016-10-29T17:13:09Z pipping: I'm not quite happy with it yet; not only because the way it uses quicklisp is not very nice but also because I couldn't get the keywords :positional-arity and :rest-arity to work for me the way they should. The take-away lesson might just be "rather use CLON"... 2016-10-29T17:17:46Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:18:23Z Fare: cl-launch should work well with asdf 3.1.2 or later. 2016-10-29T17:18:43Z pipping: I was actually sufficiently frustrated with the command-line-arguments library at some point to put together my own cheap copy: https://github.com/pipping/delta-lisp/blob/master/delta-standalone.lisp 2016-10-29T17:19:02Z Fare: asdf of course has improved since, and if you run into an asdf bug, please try upgrading to the latest release (3.1.7) 2016-10-29T17:19:42Z Fare: pipping, sorry it didn't just work :-( 2016-10-29T17:20:40Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-10-29T17:21:50Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T17:21:56Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:21:56Z rjid is now known as rjid754 2016-10-29T17:24:28Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:24:40Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:24:48Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:27:15Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:29:12Z pipping: Fare: well, I really can't tell if it's an issue with c-l-i or me. I invite you to take https://github.com/pipping/cl-echo/tree/fancy-command-line-arguments for a spin and see if you can get it to work as expected after changing https://github.com/pipping/cl-echo/blob/fancy-command-line-arguments/fancy-echo.lisp#L40-L41 2016-10-29T17:29:57Z macdavid313 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T17:31:49Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:35:14Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:39:58Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T17:45:27Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:46:40Z Fare: pipping, fancy-echo looks like it's working for me 2016-10-29T17:46:46Z Fare: what's your problem with it? 2016-10-29T17:48:56Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:48:58Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T17:49:42Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:49:51Z pipping: Fare: it works like this, yes 2016-10-29T17:51:51Z pipping: Fare: what I'd expect to work e.g., though, yet which doesn't: 2016-10-29T17:51:56Z pipping: Fare: - http://dpaste.com/1AG1PH6 2016-10-29T17:52:42Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:53:04Z pipping: Fare: - http://dpaste.com/1V9AJ0V 2016-10-29T17:54:02Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-29T17:54:17Z pipping: Fare: - http://dpaste.com/3GJZQBH 2016-10-29T17:55:04Z pipping: Fare: so in summary, (:positional-arity 0, :rest-arity t) is the only combination I've gotten to work. 2016-10-29T17:57:03Z Fare: oh, ok 2016-10-29T17:57:11Z pipping: as an entirely unrelated sidenote: spending time in #asdf isn't fun :( http://dpaste.com/33WEDCT.txt 2016-10-29T17:57:34Z Fare: my mind is currently full with attempts to refactor asdf's traverse-action 2016-10-29T17:58:01Z Fare: but if you think it's a bug, it probably is, and you should open an issue on github. 2016-10-29T17:58:22Z Fare: at this moment I trust you more than myself regarding this out-of-cache library. 2016-10-29T18:00:55Z rjid754 left #lisp 2016-10-29T18:03:09Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-29T18:07:41Z pipping: Fare: I've turned this into https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/qitab/command-line-arguments/issues/1 now 2016-10-29T18:10:09Z drobban joined #lisp 2016-10-29T18:10:40Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T18:13:15Z Fare: pipping: thanks1 2016-10-29T18:23:17Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-29T18:25:29Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-29T18:29:36Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T18:30:13Z seg joined #lisp 2016-10-29T18:42:27Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-29T18:49:08Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T18:49:52Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-29T18:50:48Z dwts: pipping: just returned home. I'll eat smth and check in a few 2016-10-29T18:50:52Z dwts: i'll let you know 2016-10-29T18:52:44Z razzy89___: Hi, does anybodey know how trusthorthy are github libraries? 2016-10-29T18:53:08Z razzy89___: https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen/ 2016-10-29T18:53:25Z Fare: Shinmera is a reputable hacker 2016-10-29T18:53:35Z Baggers: seconded 2016-10-29T18:53:53Z razzy89___: https://github.com/melisgl/mgl#x-28MGL-3A-40MGL-OVERVIEW-20MGL-PAX-3ASECTION-29 2016-10-29T18:55:01Z razzy89___: Fare: Reputable hacker means let it runs under root privilegies or make special sandbox for it 2016-10-29T18:55:28Z Baggers: you want to run an irc boot with root privilege? 2016-10-29T18:55:40Z Baggers: s/boot/bot 2016-10-29T18:56:14Z razzy89___: Baggers: no :], but i want to know how much I should trust it 2016-10-29T18:57:54Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-29T18:58:26Z razzy89___: Fare: If somebody is reputable hacker, does it mean his code is trusthorthy? What is image is? 2016-10-29T18:58:57Z razzy89___: Baggers: s/boot/bot? I do not understand 2016-10-29T18:59:09Z Baggers: razzy89___: I wrote boot, I meant bot 2016-10-29T18:59:29Z Baggers: I think it's almost the same trade off as you have using quicklisp, unless you audit the code yourself you have to trusts someone. shinmera is a good guy though, it's very unlikely he's trying to screw you over with an irc bot 2016-10-29T18:59:39Z Baggers: also its one he uses on his channel 2016-10-29T18:59:42Z Bike: shinmera is fine. if you have a problem you can email him or file an issue or something and he'll probably respond. 2016-10-29T18:59:52Z Bike: nobody's done a comprehensive analysis of colleen or anything though. 2016-10-29T19:00:09Z Baggers: razzy89___: the second link was code by ravenpack who are also probably trustworthy, nice folks 2016-10-29T19:00:36Z Baggers: but once again. No theres no security audit that code that im aware of 2016-10-29T19:01:03Z razzy89___: Baggers: s/bot/bot? still have no clue 2016-10-29T19:01:31Z razzy89___: Baggers: Bike Fare, thank you :] 2016-10-29T19:01:35Z Bike: s/foo/bar/ means «replace «foo» with «bar» in my previous message(s)» 2016-10-29T19:01:43Z Bike: it is a reference to the unix tool, sed 2016-10-29T19:01:52Z Baggers: thanks Bike, you beat me to it :) 2016-10-29T19:01:54Z razzy89___: now i know 2016-10-29T19:03:18Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:04:41Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:06:06Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T19:07:51Z flacko quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2016-10-29T19:09:50Z heurist`_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T19:10:01Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:11:46Z dan` joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:16:30Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-29T19:17:58Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:21:20Z rjcode joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:22:33Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-29T19:22:37Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T19:24:09Z heurist_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-29T19:25:18Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:26:46Z akkad: how do you test for a valid plist? 2016-10-29T19:27:59Z |3b|: (zerop (mod (length list) 2))? 2016-10-29T19:28:42Z |3b|: possibly also check for even numbered elements not being numbers or characters 2016-10-29T19:30:16Z seg joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:30:22Z |3b|: or test for them being symbols or strings depending on how you want to interpret the glossary (not that string keys would be that useful since you would need an EQ string to look them up) 2016-10-29T19:30:36Z White_Flame: if you want to check for it being a proper, non-circular, non-dotted list, that's more work too 2016-10-29T19:30:47Z flip214: If I have a class with a slot of :ALLOCATION :CLASS, can I set that without allocating an instance of that class? 2016-10-29T19:31:22Z |3b|: doesn't MOP have a prototype instance or something for that? 2016-10-29T19:32:23Z flip214: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html says "you can access the slot value only through an instance of the class even though it isn't actually stored in the instance. 2016-10-29T19:32:38Z flip214: but it also mentions passing a value in for MAKE-INSTANCE... 2016-10-29T19:33:00Z sjl: akkad: something like https://github.com/m2ym/trivial-types/blob/master/src/lists.lisp#L41 maybe 2016-10-29T19:33:07Z akkad: sjl 2016-10-29T19:33:08Z akkad: thanks 2016-10-29T19:33:37Z |3b|: yeah, i guess list-length and checking for NIL might be safer than LENGTH 2016-10-29T19:35:52Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T19:37:08Z rjcode quit (Quit: rjcode) 2016-10-29T19:38:34Z Amplituhedron quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T19:39:55Z Fare: flip214, don't set a slot with :allocation :class, unless you want the value to change for all instances in that class... and in subclasses that didn't override the slot definition(!) 2016-10-29T19:40:33Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:40:38Z Fare: You can access the value without a class instance, through the MOP 2016-10-29T19:41:00Z Fare: hint: do NOT have any initarg for a class-allocated slot. 2016-10-29T19:41:18Z flip214: Fare: thanks. why not have an initarg? 2016-10-29T19:41:41Z Fare: to avoid inadvertent overwriting of the value while initializing an instance. 2016-10-29T19:41:58Z Fare made all the mistakes in asdf (and fixed them since then) 2016-10-29T19:42:08Z Fare: on to better mistakes! 2016-10-29T19:42:35Z flip214: oh, yes. If that's the only problem ;) 2016-10-29T19:43:14Z Pent quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-29T19:43:23Z flip214: Fare: how to set via MOP? 2016-10-29T19:43:39Z flip214: I found closer-mop:slot-definition-allocation, but that's for changing the :allocation 2016-10-29T19:44:08Z flip214: slot-definition-initform is wrong, too, I guess 2016-10-29T19:47:03Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:47:32Z Fare: flip214, possibly through class-slots or class-prototype 2016-10-29T19:49:47Z Fare: but that's probably bad form. Why would you want such a thing, anyway? 2016-10-29T19:51:35Z flip214: I had a bad value in such a slot, and so initialize-instance failed. 2016-10-29T19:51:52Z flip214: so I couldn't do (setf (slot (make-instance 'class)) (new-value)) 2016-10-29T19:52:10Z flip214: so I needed some foolproof way, until I become a better fool ;) 2016-10-29T19:52:19Z flip214: solved it a different way 2016-10-29T19:52:34Z flip214: by just having it as :initform when defining the class 2016-10-29T19:53:29Z |3b| thinks class-prototype is the 'correct' way, need to make sure class is finalized first 2016-10-29T19:54:57Z |3b|: based on http://www.gnu.org/software/clisp/impnotes/mop-classes.html#class-prototype 2016-10-29T19:56:38Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T19:56:40Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:56:40Z lambda-smith quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T19:58:49Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-29T19:59:36Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-29T19:59:54Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-29T20:00:25Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T20:01:59Z Fare: flip214, a new defclass to override the old one 2016-10-29T20:02:10Z Fare: and yes, :initform 2016-10-29T20:03:06Z Fare: it's usually a bad idea for these slots to be writable 2016-10-29T20:03:07Z flip214: Fare: thanks, did it that way. 2016-10-29T20:03:19Z flip214: yeah, don't have any accessor functions any more 2016-10-29T20:03:28Z flip214: thanks a lot 2016-10-29T20:03:29Z Fare: a reader function is fine 2016-10-29T20:03:46Z |3b|: apparently you can also use ALLOCATE-INSTANCE if initialization if t he problem 2016-10-29T20:03:57Z Fare: for writeable, it's better to use a class as a key in a hash-table 2016-10-29T20:04:09Z Fare: and/or its name 2016-10-29T20:04:19Z Fare: I do just that in asdf 2016-10-29T20:15:57Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-29T20:16:17Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T20:17:34Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T20:18:03Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-29T20:18:38Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-29T20:18:44Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T20:20:14Z seg joined #lisp 2016-10-29T20:20:19Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-29T20:20:49Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-29T20:22:49Z cpape quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T20:24:15Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-29T20:25:03Z Th30n quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-29T20:26:18Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-29T20:28:07Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-29T20:29:44Z Fare: what's a good word for "being up to date"? Freshness? 2016-10-29T20:29:57Z Fare goes turn asdf into rotten-tomatoes 2016-10-29T20:30:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T20:31:31Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-29T20:35:52Z razzy89___: I have a problem https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1105 I should update my quicklis 2016-10-29T20:35:54Z razzy89___: p 2016-10-29T20:36:24Z razzy89___: should I ql:update-client 2016-10-29T20:36:33Z razzy89___: or ql:update-distro 2016-10-29T20:37:25Z nrp3c joined #lisp 2016-10-29T20:37:28Z letothesecond: I think that synced is a good word for being up to date, although it might have some other connotations. 2016-10-29T20:38:02Z razzy89___: what is the difference? 2016-10-29T20:38:43Z younder joined #lisp 2016-10-29T20:43:45Z razzy89___: I figured out :] 2016-10-29T20:44:23Z razzy89___: I feel like randomly typing monkey 2016-10-29T20:45:03Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-29T20:46:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-29T20:48:43Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-29T20:50:35Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-29T20:53:11Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-10-29T21:10:30Z Fare: attila_lendvai, hi 2016-10-29T21:10:44Z attila_lendvai: hi Fare 2016-10-29T21:12:56Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T21:15:33Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-10-29T21:20:15Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-29T21:25:04Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-10-29T21:25:23Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T21:28:26Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-29T21:30:31Z akkad: has anyone done sqlite :memory: paired with an on disk one? looking at doing a pub/sub sort of thing with the memory based tables but flushed to disk like a checkpoint 2016-10-29T21:32:55Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-29T21:33:22Z Fare: akkad: I saw someone do something like that recently... 2016-10-29T21:33:53Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-29T21:34:05Z Fare: https://github.com/rqlite/rqlite 2016-10-29T21:34:17Z akkad: thank you Fare 2016-10-29T21:34:53Z akkad: my Pakled lisp code thanks you 2016-10-29T21:36:09Z Fare: and even better: https://github.com/biokoda/actordb 2016-10-29T21:37:28Z Fare: pakled? 2016-10-29T21:38:57Z razzy89___: how do i get rlwrap into slime 2016-10-29T21:39:14Z raydeejay: uh 2016-10-29T21:39:29Z razzy89___: cant find anything 2016-10-29T21:39:41Z raydeejay: it's not surprising since slime runs in emacs 2016-10-29T21:39:45Z raydeejay: what is it you want to do? 2016-10-29T21:40:32Z razzy89___: raydeejay: I want to repeat my commands in repl 2016-10-29T21:40:43Z raydeejay: then use M-p and M-n to navigate the history 2016-10-29T21:40:45Z razzy89___: with up arrow 2016-10-29T21:41:33Z jack_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-29T21:42:33Z razzy89___: raydeejay: magical :D awesome 2016-10-29T21:43:11Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-29T21:44:00Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T21:46:08Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-29T21:48:12Z akkad: Fare: Startrek reference 2016-10-29T21:50:50Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-29T21:51:16Z vtomole joined #lisp 2016-10-29T21:52:35Z razzy89___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T21:53:38Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds) 2016-10-29T21:53:57Z vtomole: what does "Token "..." only contains dots." mean? I keep getting it when i load chunga or flexi-streams? 2016-10-29T21:56:43Z vap1 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T21:57:26Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-10-29T21:59:22Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-29T22:01:36Z heurist`_` joined #lisp 2016-10-29T22:04:22Z heurist_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T22:13:37Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-29T22:17:01Z |3b|: vtomole: sounds like there is invalid code somewhere, does it say which file specifically? and how did you get chunga/flexi-streams? 2016-10-29T22:17:53Z |3b|: (specifically, it saw ... in the code somewhere, which isn't valid CL code) 2016-10-29T22:19:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T22:19:36Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-29T22:20:46Z |3b|: vtomole: also, which lisp implementation? 2016-10-29T22:20:59Z vtomole: I traced the problem to trivial-gray-streams because chunga and flexi-streams depend on it. 2016-10-29T22:21:11Z |3b| was just about to ask that too :) 2016-10-29T22:21:27Z dan` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-29T22:21:30Z vtomole: :) 2016-10-29T22:22:15Z |3b|: looks like you have lisp implementation trivial-gray-streams doesn't know about 2016-10-29T22:22:39Z vtomole: Do these programs depend on cffi? because i'm using the mezzano lisp cl implementation:https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano. 2016-10-29T22:23:20Z |3b|: no, just depends on the implementation supporting Gray streams 2016-10-29T22:23:45Z |3b|: (and someone adding support to trivial-gray-streams) 2016-10-29T22:24:44Z vtomole: How do you support it? Do you have to implement it in the compiler? 2016-10-29T22:25:28Z |3b|: trivial-gray-streams is just a thin wrapper around the implementation's gray streams implementation, hiding things like the name of the package and fixing any broken implementations if possible 2016-10-29T22:26:47Z |3b|: looks like mezzano supports it, so if you are luck you might be able to add #+mezzano :sys.gray to trivial-gray-streams.asd, and add mezzano to the #-(or sbcl ...) list 2016-10-29T22:27:20Z |3b| is assuming :mezzano is in *features* on mezzano 2016-10-29T22:27:44Z |3b|: which seems to be the case 2016-10-29T22:28:31Z vtomole: Nice! Let me try it. 2016-10-29T22:29:24Z |3b|: probably want to run the tests as well, to see if it needs anything more fixed 2016-10-29T22:31:26Z vtomole: Where is #-(or sbcl ...) list? 2016-10-29T22:31:41Z phoe_: vtomole: what do you mean? 2016-10-29T22:31:57Z |3b|: in particular, you might need to implement stream-file-position if i remember correctly 2016-10-29T22:32:29Z |3b|: oops, sorry, that is in package.lisp not the .asd file 2016-10-29T22:32:38Z |3b|: https://github.com/trivial-gray-streams/trivial-gray-streams/blob/master/package.lisp#L51 2016-10-29T22:33:08Z froggey: vtomole: this should cover everything: https://github.com/froggey/trivial-gray-streams 2016-10-29T22:33:11Z |3b|: and add the #+mezzano :sys.gray on previous line 2016-10-29T22:33:29Z |3b|: ah, already ported version is even easier :) 2016-10-29T22:33:50Z froggey: yup. I had it lying around 2016-10-29T22:33:52Z vtomole: Thank you froggey! I didn't know you hung out here also :) 2016-10-29T22:34:11Z PosterdatiMobile quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-29T22:34:49Z phoe_: it's really weird for me to try and classify Mezzano 2016-10-29T22:35:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-29T22:35:18Z phoe_: it's basically yet another implementation of Common Lisp that accidentally turns out to be a complete operating system 2016-10-29T22:35:25Z phoe_: from this point of view 2016-10-29T22:35:44Z phoe_: which is absolutely weird and fantastic 2016-10-29T22:36:26Z Pent joined #lisp 2016-10-29T22:36:55Z froggey: being a complete(ish) operating system wasn't an accident, and is the end goal. being another CL implementation is largely incidental 2016-10-29T22:38:22Z Yuuhi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-29T22:38:58Z Razzy123 joined #lisp 2016-10-29T22:39:14Z vtomole: phoe_: Lisp easily adapts to any situation that is why Mezzano turned out to be a lisp impementation 2016-10-29T22:39:54Z phoe_: froggey: as I said, from this point of view :D 2016-10-29T22:40:11Z phoe_: from the compatibility library point of view, it's just another CL implementation 2016-10-29T22:40:25Z pjb quit (Quit: Be seeing you!) 2016-10-29T22:40:39Z phoe_: so Lisp code written against portable or semi-portable CL will most likely run on it 2016-10-29T22:40:50Z phoe_: which is crazy, given all the differences 2016-10-29T22:41:33Z froggey: yep, standards are good 2016-10-29T22:42:08Z phoe_: <3 2016-10-29T22:42:29Z phoe_: night, lisp 2016-10-29T22:42:35Z vtomole: <3 2016-10-29T22:42:40Z froggey: otoh it's astonishingly hostile to anything that isn't CL 2016-10-29T22:42:42Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-29T22:43:20Z vtomole: froggey:what do you mean? 2016-10-29T22:45:45Z froggey: running C code would require a major effort, making compilers emit code that fit the mezzano environment instead of the other way around 2016-10-29T22:46:34Z froggey: and if a system can't run C then there aren't many interpreters for other languages that it can run, as they all tend to be written in C 2016-10-29T22:48:00Z vtomole: You can ignore C:https://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/ 2016-10-29T22:51:27Z vtomole: You are right it takes a lot of effort to write new interpreters on CL 2016-10-29T23:01:13Z Fare: does mezzano support asdf? because I never got a patch for it. 2016-10-29T23:02:00Z Fare: mezzano seems much less advanced than your regular unikernel. Haskell, OCaml, etc., all have advanced unikernels... 2016-10-29T23:04:08Z raydeejay: is that like Univac? 2016-10-29T23:05:09Z froggey: Fare: it does, but I've didn't submit a patch because mezzano hadn't really settled down when I was porting it 2016-10-29T23:06:43Z froggey: and mezzano isn't a unikernel 2016-10-29T23:07:03Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T23:13:22Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T23:15:50Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-29T23:24:18Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-10-29T23:31:20Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T23:31:54Z gucky joined #lisp 2016-10-29T23:40:16Z gucky quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T23:40:25Z fiddlerwoaroof_ joined #lisp 2016-10-29T23:43:01Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T23:44:24Z vtomole: Fare: What do you mean support asdf? You can load programs using asdf on it. 2016-10-29T23:45:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-29T23:47:50Z Fare: vtomole, can you? What version of asdf works on mezzano? 2016-10-29T23:48:07Z Fare: froggey, please send patch 2016-10-29T23:49:38Z vtomole: "3.1.7.0.1" 2016-10-29T23:49:50Z vtomole: That's the version i'm using 2016-10-29T23:52:06Z froggey: Fare: ok, I'll try to get to it tomorrow. is a PR on github ok or something else? 2016-10-29T23:53:38Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2016-10-29T23:54:53Z vtomole: I'll will update my Mezzano fork with it by tomorrow and give you the link once I clean things up a bit. 2016-10-29T23:55:36Z ryan_vw_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-29T23:56:21Z vtomole: Fare: Join us on #mezzano if you haven't already. 2016-10-30T00:00:41Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-30T00:01:55Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-30T00:02:50Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T00:03:19Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-30T00:04:07Z Razzy123 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-30T00:09:58Z hhdave_ quit (Quit: hhdave_) 2016-10-30T00:15:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-30T00:15:51Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-30T00:17:20Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-30T00:20:38Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T00:22:46Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-30T00:25:51Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T00:31:08Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-30T00:34:39Z Fare: froggey, a MR on gitlab.common-lisp.net is better 2016-10-30T00:34:48Z Fare: if possible before our next release. 2016-10-30T00:35:22Z Fare: I cannot predict when Robert will release ASDF 3.1.8, but I'd guess in November. 2016-10-30T00:36:52Z Anselma joined #lisp 2016-10-30T00:37:03Z froggey: ok 2016-10-30T00:37:53Z vtomole: Mezzano is on gitlab? I couldn't find it. Speaking about gitlab? I emailed admin to create an account for me last month and I haven't gotten a response. What should I do? 2016-10-30T00:38:33Z Anselmo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T00:38:44Z Anselma is now known as Anselmo 2016-10-30T00:40:23Z froggey: vtomole: Mezzano is on github 2016-10-30T00:49:27Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-30T00:53:12Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2016-10-30T00:55:59Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T00:56:25Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-30T00:56:36Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-30T00:57:15Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-30T01:00:53Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-30T01:07:29Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T01:10:47Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-30T01:10:55Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-10-30T01:16:40Z PuercoPop: vtomole: sent an email to the admin directly (not the address they say) explaning the situation 2016-10-30T01:19:42Z biocage joined #lisp 2016-10-30T01:20:00Z WCH is now known as wch 2016-10-30T01:20:47Z PuercoPop: I can't find the address here but basically the same thing happened to me (the email went unnoticed) 2016-10-30T01:22:06Z kamog joined #lisp 2016-10-30T01:22:42Z vtomole: PuercoPop: Thank you 2016-10-30T01:23:43Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-10-30T01:38:54Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-30T01:41:22Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-30T01:49:46Z drmeister: This is my current attempt at a DEFCALLBACK, CALLBACK and GET-CALLBACK for Clasp - the DEFCALLBACK macro is a bit of a monster. 2016-10-30T01:49:47Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329890#1 2016-10-30T01:50:35Z drmeister: Comments and feedback is appreciated. 2016-10-30T01:50:41Z drmeister: Oh - it works. 2016-10-30T01:50:48Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T01:50:59Z tkhoa2711 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-30T01:53:01Z drmeister: (cmp::defcallback foo :int ((x :int) (y :int)) (+ x y)) generates LLVM-IR that looks like this 2016-10-30T01:53:08Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329890#2 2016-10-30T01:54:05Z drmeister: The function Callback_FOO at the top is the C- style function that takes two ints, converts them to fixnums and calls the LAMBDA and then converts the result back into an int. 2016-10-30T01:54:42Z drmeister: The LAMBDA function is inlined into the Callback_FOO function when the FASL is generated - so there is no overhead. 2016-10-30T01:56:56Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-30T02:00:43Z safe joined #lisp 2016-10-30T02:01:37Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T02:01:48Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T02:03:07Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-10-30T02:03:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T02:06:03Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-30T02:13:01Z nilof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T02:13:38Z creat joined #lisp 2016-10-30T02:15:59Z rocx` joined #lisp 2016-10-30T02:18:14Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-30T02:18:32Z rocx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T02:19:00Z rocx` is now known as rocx 2016-10-30T02:25:15Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-30T02:30:49Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-10-30T02:31:52Z fUD quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-30T02:41:16Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T02:46:41Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-30T02:51:43Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T02:56:47Z Fare: vtomole: nice so you have a patch for the latest release! 2016-10-30T02:57:43Z nrp3c quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T02:57:44Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-30T02:58:49Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-30T03:02:58Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-30T03:04:28Z jasom: vtomole, PuercoPop It took about 6 weeks for me to get mine through 2016-10-30T03:05:19Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-30T03:05:22Z PuercoPop: jasom: yeah I wrote the second email after waiting for at least a month 2016-10-30T03:09:02Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-30T03:09:24Z vtomole: That kind of wait time is not good for gaining new lispers. I understand that admin probably has more important things to do though. 2016-10-30T03:10:01Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-30T03:11:20Z creat joined #lisp 2016-10-30T03:20:13Z tigg joined #lisp 2016-10-30T03:22:51Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-30T03:23:54Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2016-10-30T07:32:43Z razzy89___: (:use #:alexandria #:split-sequence) do not 2016-10-30T07:37:39Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2016-10-30T07:43:22Z Bike: In what respect does it not work? 2016-10-30T07:52:58Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-10-30T07:56:53Z drdo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-30T07:56:55Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:00:41Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:00:55Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:01:31Z drdo quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-30T08:01:48Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:04:18Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:04:22Z gucky joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:04:33Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:08:08Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T08:10:30Z opengs7 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:11:36Z razzy89___: Bike: could not find split-sequence package 2016-10-30T08:12:24Z razzy89___: Bike: https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen/blob/master/modules/markov.lisp modul 2016-10-30T08:13:20Z Bike: the definition doesn't seem to use split sequence? 2016-10-30T08:13:21Z razzy89___: Bike: I could manually load (ql:quickload :split-sequence) and than compile https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen/blob/master/modules/markov.lisp 2016-10-30T08:13:34Z razzy89___: it uses it 2016-10-30T08:13:43Z Bike: it has it as a dependency, but it's not a package that it uses 2016-10-30T08:14:37Z razzy89___: but when I try import split-sequence like package, it doesn't work 2016-10-30T08:15:04Z Bike: i don't understand what you're doing. you quickload split-sequence, and then try to load an altered version of the package definition in that file? 2016-10-30T08:15:41Z razzy89___: Bike ok, https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen/blob/master/modules/markov.lisp does not work 2016-10-30T08:15:58Z razzy89___: it needs define split-sequence 2016-10-30T08:16:19Z razzy89___: when I manually load (ql:quickload :split-sequence) and than compile https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen/blob/master/modules/markov.lisp it works 2016-10-30T08:16:25Z Bike: are you supposed to load that file by itself? because i think colleen has a different dependency architecture. 2016-10-30T08:17:04Z razzy89___: Bike chmm, I think I could do that 2016-10-30T08:17:42Z razzy89___: Bike, how I can find out about dependencies 2016-10-30T08:18:02Z opengs7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T08:18:07Z Bike: it's probably in the documentation. i see something about 'start-module' in the readme. did you read it? 2016-10-30T08:18:13Z razzy89___: Bike: in manual it says , you could load modules independently 2016-10-30T08:18:21Z razzy89___: yes 2016-10-30T08:18:41Z Bike: did you try load-module? 2016-10-30T08:19:07Z razzy89___: Bike yes 2016-10-30T08:19:44Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:19:58Z razzy89___: load-module doesnt work becouse is missing split-sequence 2016-10-30T08:20:01Z Bike: well, maybe try asking shinmera, they're online. 2016-10-30T08:20:16Z Bike: though they might be afk 2016-10-30T08:20:41Z razzy89___: Bike where they are 2016-10-30T08:20:55Z Bike: like, /msg 2016-10-30T08:27:10Z razzy89___: Bike, thx :], it did not occur to me 2016-10-30T08:29:07Z nrp3c joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:37:31Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:42:38Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-30T08:50:20Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T09:02:52Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-10-30T09:03:00Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-30T09:05:34Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-10-30T09:05:47Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-10-30T09:06:41Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-10-30T09:06:57Z Bike quit (Quit: drain (collector)) 2016-10-30T09:09:13Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-30T09:10:06Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-30T09:11:06Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2016-10-30T09:12:19Z rotty joined #lisp 2016-10-30T09:12:21Z opengs7 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T09:16:06Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-30T09:16:44Z burtons quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T09:17:33Z opengs7 quit (Remote host closed the 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It's something that quickproject doesnt do so I never bothered, but I've had one person suggest I did it. 2016-10-30T12:06:01Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-30T12:08:04Z phoe_: no, it's not 2016-10-30T12:08:11Z phoe_: CL-USER is meant for the user and not for the programmer 2016-10-30T12:09:03Z phoe_: but then again, does DEFPACKAGE mind which package it's called from? 2016-10-30T12:09:35Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-30T12:09:58Z Xach_: Baggers: I really like when projects don't do that, because it gives you an opportunity to override what (defpackage ...) really means. 2016-10-30T12:10:44Z Xach_: Although I guess you could also tackle in-package 2016-10-30T12:11:03Z Xach_: it's the (cl:in-package ...) (cl:defpackage ...) purists who make it a little more difficult 2016-10-30T12:11:05Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T12:12:16Z Baggers: interesting. Well as I've never has any issues with not specifying it, and there seems to be a usecase for not specifying it, I think I'll carry on like this. Thanks Xach_ & phoe_ 2016-10-30T12:12:39Z creat joined #lisp 2016-10-30T12:13:59Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-10-30T12:14:01Z vap1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T12:14:01Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T12:14:11Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-10-30T12:14:11Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2016-10-30T12:14:11Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-10-30T12:14:20Z eivarv_ joined #lisp 2016-10-30T12:15:51Z eivarv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-30T12:17:20Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2016-10-30T14:38:06Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-30T14:39:39Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-10-30T14:39:39Z zygentoma quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T14:39:40Z zygentoma|2 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T14:40:02Z ejbs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T14:41:09Z zygentoma|2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T14:41:15Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-10-30T14:44:49Z R0B_ROD joined #lisp 2016-10-30T14:45:04Z R0B_ROD: Hi Im new to lisp 2016-10-30T14:46:43Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-30T14:47:08Z kamog quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T14:47:47Z knobo: R0B_ROD: Congratulations :) 2016-10-30T14:50:51Z R0B_ROD: knobo: LOL :) 2016-10-30T14:52:44Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T14:55:12Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T14:55:21Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-30T14:55:39Z Tordek joined #lisp 2016-10-30T14:56:30Z dwts quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T14:58:42Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-30T15:00:19Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:01:28Z vert2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T15:05:46Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-30T15:06:18Z dwts joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:06:38Z brkr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T15:06:46Z brkr joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:07:29Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T15:10:16Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:10:47Z phoe_: R0B_ROD: hey! how can we help you? 2016-10-30T15:10:55Z phoe_: other than suggesting Practical Common Lisp as the book of choice? 2016-10-30T15:11:05Z phoe_: unless you haven't programmed at all, in which case 2016-10-30T15:11:12Z phoe_: minion: tell R0B_ROD about gentle 2016-10-30T15:11:12Z minion: R0B_ROD: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2016-10-30T15:11:17Z phoe_: minion: tell R0B_ROD about pcl 2016-10-30T15:11:17Z minion: R0B_ROD: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2016-10-30T15:12:06Z dwts quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T15:18:34Z nydel joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:18:40Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:19:19Z Tordek joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:22:57Z vert2 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:26:42Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:28:30Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-30T15:29:04Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T15:29:32Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-30T15:30:43Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:30:46Z R0B_ROD quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-30T15:32:53Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-30T15:32:54Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:35:31Z dwts joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:42:20Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-30T15:43:54Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:44:02Z joneshf-laptop quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-30T15:44:16Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:45:09Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T15:45:21Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:45:56Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T15:46:49Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T15:47:01Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:48:50Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-30T15:50:58Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:52:27Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-30T15:56:09Z beaky: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/lisp.html interesting history 2016-10-30T15:57:28Z beaky: the sheer conceptual simplicity of lisp astounds me 2016-10-30T16:00:25Z beaky: (which somehow manages to shine through even in its current incarnations) 2016-10-30T16:01:36Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:01:48Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T16:02:33Z beaky: or am i mistaken: does lisp have any conceptual blunders? 2016-10-30T16:02:44Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2016-10-30T16:02:51Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:03:29Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T16:04:49Z daniel-s quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-30T16:04:54Z daniel-s_ joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:05:21Z pierpa: Well, the old ones had dynamic bindings. Only. 2016-10-30T16:05:33Z rocx: pierpa: that's (let), right? 2016-10-30T16:06:00Z pierpa: no, all variables were special. 2016-10-30T16:06:15Z beaky: yes amazing how today i take lexical binding for granted 2016-10-30T16:06:21Z beaky: in that i can't imagine programming without them D: 2016-10-30T16:06:42Z pierpa: recx: do you understand how specials work in CL? 2016-10-30T16:06:57Z pierpa: rocx: ^ sorry 2016-10-30T16:07:24Z rocx: ah. 2016-10-30T16:07:30Z rocx: not quite about specials. 2016-10-30T16:07:58Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-30T16:08:07Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:08:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:08:15Z pierpa: hmmm 2016-10-30T16:09:10Z beaky: ye lisp is probably the only language i've ever used that has specials 2016-10-30T16:09:22Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:10:03Z pierpa: APL also is a specials only language 2016-10-30T16:10:15Z pierpa: (as far as I know) 2016-10-30T16:12:03Z beaky: apl is even more fascinating in that all problems seem to be solvable by APL one-liners 2016-10-30T16:12:20Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T16:12:29Z rocx: everything can be a one-liner with enough time, patience, and a blatant disregard for sanity. 2016-10-30T16:12:34Z beaky: (with high performacne because all problems are screaming-fast array manipulation or something) 2016-10-30T16:12:52Z beaky: so apl sounds like the holy grail of programming 2016-10-30T16:13:25Z younder: beaky, lol 2016-10-30T16:13:42Z pierpa: :D 2016-10-30T16:16:09Z dan` joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:16:23Z dan` is now known as Dan1973 2016-10-30T16:17:08Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T16:17:47Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:18:07Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:18:40Z Dan1973: Is labels/flet often used to hide functions from named scope, or anonymous functions is the prefered way to do this ? i/ 2016-10-30T16:19:24Z cromachina: i more often use those to take advantage of closures, or reduce the amount of arguments i need to pass to helper functions 2016-10-30T16:21:35Z Dan1973: cromachina: do you have an example on github where I can look, pls ? 2016-10-30T16:21:47Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-30T16:22:37Z cromachina: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/AVL_tree#Common_Lisp 2016-10-30T16:23:37Z Dan1973: cromachina: thank you 2016-10-30T16:26:00Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T16:31:50Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:32:26Z creat joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:37:39Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T16:41:44Z munksgaard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T16:44:06Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-30T16:44:23Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-30T16:50:28Z gucky quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2016-10-30T16:52:40Z daniel-s_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T16:54:05Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-30T17:01:23Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-10-30T17:01:59Z mishoo_ quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2016-10-30T17:02:08Z beach` joined #lisp 2016-10-30T17:03:34Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-30T17:03:38Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-30T17:03:46Z beach` is now known as beach 2016-10-30T17:08:35Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-30T17:08:59Z alienbot joined #lisp 2016-10-30T17:11:37Z jack joined #lisp 2016-10-30T17:12:26Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-10-30T17:14:50Z alienbot quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-30T17:15:06Z beaky: are there other books like norvig's Paradigms of AI Programming; books that use common lisp as a vehicle to explore and study stuff 2016-10-30T17:15:26Z rocx quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T17:16:15Z _death: beaky: there are nice books with Lisp code.. though PAIP is obviously the greatest ;) 2016-10-30T17:16:25Z beaky: haha 2016-10-30T17:16:58Z beaky: yes norvig is a true master programmer and master at peagogy 2016-10-30T17:17:55Z younder: and now master of google (or at least tecnical director) 2016-10-30T17:18:02Z _death: beaky: Practical Common Lisp, Land of Lisp, Building Problem Solvers, Art of the Metaobject Protocol is just a small sample 2016-10-30T17:18:54Z beaky: seems like the online 'architecure of open source applications' books are similar to norvig's style tho not in common lisp 2016-10-30T17:19:10Z pierpa: beaky: Chatin's books about information theory. I know they're groundbreaking material, but I haven't studied them myself so I can't comment first-hand. 2016-10-30T17:19:33Z _death: beaky: eh? those (good books) contain a technical overview of the architecture.. not code 2016-10-30T17:20:21Z pierpa: https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~chaitin/lisp.html 2016-10-30T17:23:08Z pierpa: http://www.springer.com/us/book/9781852334178 2016-10-30T17:24:12Z Bike: as i remember, chaitin's book didn't use CL, it used this really bizarre lisp with single character identifiers 2016-10-30T17:25:58Z pierpa: kinda like a turing machine of lisp 2016-10-30T17:26:57Z paroneayea: anyone get the CADR emulator up and running on their machine? 2016-10-30T17:27:10Z paroneayea: http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Cadr 2016-10-30T17:27:12Z paroneayea: just curious 2016-10-30T17:27:12Z Bike: well, it still had the tree organization and all, it wasn't a state machine. 2016-10-30T17:27:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-30T17:29:35Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T17:30:49Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-30T17:32:49Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-30T17:37:23Z pierpa: how cool are dates written as 08/07/06! :) 2016-10-30T17:38:47Z frzn joined #lisp 2016-10-30T17:38:48Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-30T17:39:37Z Jucaa joined #lisp 2016-10-30T17:40:40Z jack is now known as lemonpepper24 2016-10-30T17:46:39Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-10-30T17:47:08Z akkad: paroneayea: see #lispm 2016-10-30T17:47:19Z klltkr is now known as klltkr|CLE 2016-10-30T17:48:14Z paroneayea: akkad: joined :) 2016-10-30T17:48:25Z Dan1973: see this: https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf 2016-10-30T17:48:35Z akkad: and #bolix 2016-10-30T17:49:11Z Dan1973: Im very new to lisp and didnt read it yet, but I perused it , and I think you would like it with paip 2016-10-30T17:49:36Z akkad: paip is really good. perhaps not as a first book to cl 2016-10-30T17:51:14Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T17:51:20Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-10-30T17:52:08Z akkad: is building problem solvers worth it? 2016-10-30T17:52:12Z akkad: never heard of it 2016-10-30T17:52:12Z klltkr|CLE: Okay, so I'm looking to run swank single threaded. If I just set :style :fd-handler (or :sigio for that matter), slime-connect just hangs. I'm guessing it's because my application if sitting in a loop, drawing with OpenGL, processing events. Now in this loop I am already polling on a couple of file descriptors. I'm wondering if I can also poll a file descriptor associated with swank and process swank events when they ap 2016-10-30T17:52:12Z klltkr|CLE: pear. Does anyone know if this is possible / how I would do this? 2016-10-30T17:53:08Z _death: akkad: I liked it, but I haven't read it all yet.. it's available online http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/BPS/readme.html 2016-10-30T17:58:17Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T17:58:52Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:00:14Z p_l joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:07:09Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T18:11:49Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:12:05Z daniel-s_ joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:13:41Z toogley quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T18:15:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:15:37Z renzz joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:16:29Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T18:16:45Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T18:17:26Z Baggers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T18:18:07Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:18:47Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:23:54Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:24:13Z arrsim quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-30T18:24:17Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T18:24:38Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:25:12Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:25:15Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:26:15Z arrsim joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:39:24Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T18:39:39Z _8hzp joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:40:31Z hzp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T18:44:11Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:49:54Z otjura joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:51:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T18:51:49Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T18:52:08Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T19:06:54Z daniel-s_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-30T19:07:28Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-30T19:14:48Z lemonpepper24 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-30T19:15:20Z ejbs joined #lisp 2016-10-30T19:16:51Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-30T19:27:32Z trinque joined #lisp 2016-10-30T19:31:48Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-30T19:39:09Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-30T19:43:51Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T19:44:13Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-30T19:47:19Z R0B_ROD joined #lisp 2016-10-30T19:49:14Z creat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-30T19:49:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T19:51:10Z renzz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T19:53:27Z ggole quit 2016-10-30T19:53:50Z R0B_ROD: I cant get gnu common lisp to compile with gcc 5.4 nor 6.2 on gentoo 2016-10-30T19:59:34Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-30T20:01:05Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T20:01:29Z |3b|: is there any reason you want to use gcl specifically? 2016-10-30T20:01:42Z |3b|: sbcl and ccl are much more common choices 2016-10-30T20:02:28Z |3b| assumes you mean gcl and not clisp, which is also gnu, but which is also less popular lately 2016-10-30T20:02:28Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-10-30T20:03:05Z |3b|: but probably still a better choice than gcl if you don't need gcl 2016-10-30T20:06:22Z phoe_: R0B_ROD: *don't* use GCL 2016-10-30T20:06:28Z phoe_: it's ancient, outdated and buggy. 2016-10-30T20:06:42Z otjura: afaik GCL doesn't even implement standard completely 2016-10-30T20:06:45Z phoe_: ^ 2016-10-30T20:07:02Z otjura: I think SBCL and ECL are best implementations right now 2016-10-30T20:07:02Z phoe_: there are much more supported, contemporary and alive implementations nowadays. 2016-10-30T20:07:13Z phoe_: SBCL, CCL, ECL, CLISP if you must. 2016-10-30T20:07:23Z ejbs: I don't think CLISP builds anymore 2016-10-30T20:07:26Z phoe_: if you want to compile SBCL on your own, you'll need CLISP first. 2016-10-30T20:07:28Z phoe_: oh? 2016-10-30T20:07:36Z phoe_: it used to build a few months ago. 2016-10-30T20:07:39Z phoe_: did something change? 2016-10-30T20:07:42Z |3b|: clisp hasn't been that lively lately :( 2016-10-30T20:07:45Z otjura: yeah CLISP is practically dead 2016-10-30T20:07:56Z phoe_: well, shit 2016-10-30T20:07:58Z ejbs: phoe_: I haven't personally tried but that is what I've heard. If you've actually built it a few months ago then I might be in the wrong 2016-10-30T20:08:00Z aeth: phoe_: Can't you also use sbcl to compile sbcl? 2016-10-30T20:08:04Z phoe_: aeth: you can 2016-10-30T20:08:09Z phoe_: unless you want to start with source code only. 2016-10-30T20:08:11Z aeth: e.g. install an outdated version from a Linux distro 2016-10-30T20:08:17Z phoe_: SBCL needs a Lisp to bootstrap itself. 2016-10-30T20:08:26Z phoe_: the common way was to compile CLISP from C and use CLISP to compile SBCL. 2016-10-30T20:08:45Z |3b|: common way is to get an old sbcl binary and use that :p 2016-10-30T20:08:53Z ejbs: I guess you could use ECL instead nowadays (assuming that one doesn't need bootstrapping) 2016-10-30T20:08:59Z |3b|: wanting to bootstrap from just a c compiler seems fairly uncommon 2016-10-30T20:09:00Z aeth: Who was working on a project to make a correct but slow CL in C for bootstrapping Lisps? 2016-10-30T20:09:03Z aeth: And is that ready yet? 2016-10-30T20:09:12Z eschatologist: Yeah, I'd say binary SBCL → rebuild SBCL from source is way more common. 2016-10-30T20:09:36Z R0B_ROD: sbcl and ecl ok thanks guys 2016-10-30T20:09:37Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T20:09:39Z ejbs: aeth: Sounds like that's beach 2016-10-30T20:09:57Z phoe_: aeth: oh, bocl 2016-10-30T20:10:04Z phoe_: it was beach 2016-10-30T20:10:11Z phoe_: and it's not ready yet I guess 2016-10-30T20:10:26Z R0B_ROD: So if not try racket? or clojure? 2016-10-30T20:10:33Z |3b| would pick ccl over ecl, aside from a few specific situations (not suggesting ecl is bad though, it is one of the good implementations) 2016-10-30T20:10:37Z ejbs: phoe_: https://github.com/Bike/bocl it's Bike! 2016-10-30T20:10:43Z aeth: Can ecl be used insted of clisp in the sbcl compilation? What will people do when clisp becomes uncompilable? 2016-10-30T20:10:44Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-30T20:11:05Z Posterdati: aeth: hi 2016-10-30T20:11:12Z |3b|: R0B_ROD: this is a common lisp channel, so probably won't get many in favor or racket or clojure :) 2016-10-30T20:11:13Z aeth: Posterdati: hi 2016-10-30T20:11:48Z R0B_ROD: Ok so the implementations suggested are ecl, sbcl and ccl...Im totally new so just finding my bearing 2016-10-30T20:11:49Z |3b| would guess racket before clojure here though (unless you want a clojure job or something) 2016-10-30T20:11:55Z Posterdati: aeth: do you recall when I had the problem with ecl + swank + openbsd about hanging swank:create-repl? 2016-10-30T20:12:33Z ejbs: R0B_ROD: Don't go shopping too much, pick one and stick with it 2016-10-30T20:12:34Z klltkr|CLE: (I like racket) 2016-10-30T20:12:55Z ejbs: R0B_ROD: Actually 2016-10-30T20:13:10Z pavelpenev notes that roswell can install SBCL from source by downloading a binary for the build process with one command. 2016-10-30T20:13:15Z ejbs: R0B_ROD: https://github.com/roswell/roswell install this and then you can do whatever you want 2016-10-30T20:13:17Z |3b|: R0B_ROD: if you are new, any of those should be fine, and it isn't too hard to switch once you know enough to tell the difference as long as you avoid using implementation specific features directly 2016-10-30T20:14:01Z R0B_ROD: Sounds good thx a lot everyone 2016-10-30T20:14:13Z aeth: Posterdati: vaguely 2016-10-30T20:14:54Z Posterdati: aeth: do you recall how I solved it? 2016-10-30T20:15:05Z Posterdati: aeth: lol 2016-10-30T20:15:10Z phoe_: ejbs: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Bootstrap-Common-Lisp it's beach! 2016-10-30T20:15:15Z aeth: Posterdati: how? 2016-10-30T20:15:27Z Bike: well, neither of us are very serious about it. 2016-10-30T20:15:30Z Posterdati: aeth: I'm asking to you! :) 2016-10-30T20:16:02Z aeth: Posterdati: this channel has logs available, so if you recall the rough day, you should be able to find the solution you wrote 2016-10-30T20:16:32Z Posterdati: aeth: unfortunately I could not find it 2016-10-30T20:16:55Z ejbs: phoe_: Eeh I guess I was right the first time around 2016-10-30T20:17:19Z Posterdati: aeth: available where? 2016-10-30T20:17:24Z |3b|: R0B_ROD: if you aren't allergic to emacs, you will probably also want to set up emacs + slime (or sly) soon, makes interacting with lisp much nicer 2016-10-30T20:17:56Z danke joined #lisp 2016-10-30T20:18:27Z klltkr|CLE is now known as klltkr 2016-10-30T20:19:06Z |3b|: and quicklisp when you get to the point of using other people's lisp libraries (or possibly for installing/configuring slime) 2016-10-30T20:19:11Z R0B_ROD: Installed emacs too and just finished with roswell let me find out how to set emacs up 2016-10-30T20:19:50Z ejbs: R0B_ROD: Roswell can install SLIME and Swank for you I think 2016-10-30T20:20:10Z ejbs: (Slime+swank is the client server pair for Emacs and CL) 2016-10-30T20:20:25Z |3b|: looks like it also probably has quicklisp as well 2016-10-30T20:20:31Z ejbs: https://github.com/roswell/roswell/wiki/1.1-Initial-Recommended-Setup 2016-10-30T20:21:31Z ejbs: R0B_ROD: Where it says "init.el", replace that with making a .emacs file in your homedir (are you on Linux?) and placing the line there 2016-10-30T20:21:36Z aeth: Posterdati: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ 2016-10-30T20:21:44Z R0B_ROD: ejbs: gentoo linux 2016-10-30T20:21:47Z aeth: I'm looking and I can't find any in my personal IRC logs that put them all in one big file 2016-10-30T20:21:53Z aeth: Did you use the same name? 2016-10-30T20:21:56Z eschatologist: Has anyone been maintaining cl-bench? 2016-10-30T20:22:20Z phoe_: jackdaniel: cl-bench question 2016-10-30T20:22:23Z Posterdati: aeth: PosterdatiMobile or Posterdati or Crescimmano 2016-10-30T20:22:35Z phoe_: I recall him using it some time ago, he might know something about it 2016-10-30T20:23:15Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T20:23:55Z ejbs: R0B_ROD: Ok, then the homedir is just ~ :-P, for Windows it's weird 2016-10-30T20:24:04Z |3b|: ~ works on windows too from emacs 2016-10-30T20:24:25Z |3b|: might go somewhere strange, but wherever it goes is where emacs looks for the config file :) 2016-10-30T20:24:42Z R0B_ROD: OK swank is installed 2016-10-30T20:24:46Z ejbs: |3b|: Yeah but I don't think he knows how to open a file and ssave it in Emacs! 2016-10-30T20:24:47Z R0B_ROD: Initial Setup one 2016-10-30T20:24:49Z |3b|: (goes somewhere reasonable when used from msys though) 2016-10-30T20:25:15Z |3b|: sure, but that would probably be easier to explain than how to find the right dir :) 2016-10-30T20:25:43Z ejbs: R0B_ROD: Do ros emacs, then hold in Alt and x, release and type in slime and press enter 2016-10-30T20:26:12Z ejbs: Does slime launch? 2016-10-30T20:26:23Z mood: Posterdati: Looks like it was August 20, this year 2016-10-30T20:26:39Z Posterdati: mood: thanks 2016-10-30T20:26:45Z aeth: found the conversation 2016-10-30T20:26:48Z Posterdati: I was at 8/8/2016 :) 2016-10-30T20:27:01Z aeth: "don't use openbsd" "don't be obnoxious" 2016-10-30T20:27:09Z ejbs: R0B_ROD: This emacs guide looks good: http://www.jesshamrick.com/2012/09/10/absolute-beginners-guide-to-emacs/ 2016-10-30T20:27:14Z aeth: thankfully that troll line was there or I would have missed it 2016-10-30T20:27:19Z aeth: your statement typoed and said "OpenSD" 2016-10-30T20:27:56Z aeth: It should be the 19th or 20th depending on the time zone 2016-10-30T20:27:58Z ejbs: (you mostly need to look at the key binds. C-x means "hold ctrl and x", M-x means "hold Alt and x) 2016-10-30T20:28:10Z aeth: It looks like it's the 19th here. http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2016-08/lisp-2016.08.19.txt 2016-10-30T20:28:38Z aeth: It probably goes over into the next day 2016-10-30T20:28:46Z R0B_ROD: ejbs: thanks emacs setup with theme done ... now to learn some lisp 2016-10-30T20:29:05Z R0B_ROD: appreciate all the assit thank you all 2016-10-30T20:29:17Z ejbs: R0B_ROD: I hope things will go well! 2016-10-30T20:29:26Z otjura: R0B_ROD: you should definitely go through emacs tutorial first 2016-10-30T20:29:32Z otjura: it's like 20 mins 2016-10-30T20:29:32Z Posterdati: aeth: but no solution there :( 2016-10-30T20:29:44Z otjura: it's under help-menu 2016-10-30T20:32:09Z R0B_ROD: thanks 2016-10-30T20:35:35Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-30T20:36:44Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T20:38:03Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-30T20:38:58Z danke left #lisp 2016-10-30T20:39:01Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2016-10-30T20:39:46Z anunnaki quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-30T20:40:50Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T20:43:19Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T20:44:49Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-30T20:47:50Z Posterdati: aeth: no solutions 2016-10-30T20:48:20Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-30T20:49:33Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T20:52:50Z R0B_ROD quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-10-30T20:55:42Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-30T20:56:14Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-30T20:57:43Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-10-30T20:57:57Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-30T20:59:47Z Th30n quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-30T21:01:11Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-30T21:02:14Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:04:23Z puchacz quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-30T21:04:35Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:07:17Z sjl: is there a less insane way I can do one-time-use macros like this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/329945 2016-10-30T21:07:53Z sjl: I could just raw dog it with (mapcar (lambda (args) (eval `(...)))) I suppose 2016-10-30T21:07:59Z Bike: what's insane about it? 2016-10-30T21:08:18Z sjl: it seems like there should be an easier way to do this 2016-10-30T21:08:20Z Bike: well, usually i'd just write it out as a macrolet 2016-10-30T21:08:23Z sjl: without writing macro-map itself 2016-10-30T21:08:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:08:42Z sjl: yeah I could just write the macrolets, but then I have to think of a name for each one-time-use macro, and type it out a million times 2016-10-30T21:08:50Z sjl: where million == 256 2016-10-30T21:09:17Z Bike: um, no, i mean have a mcro that does what macro804 does, and then another macro that expands to a bunch of macro804 forms, in the same macrolet. 2016-10-30T21:09:45Z sjl: I'd still need to name each of those, no? 2016-10-30T21:10:02Z Bike: well yeah, but it's two. 2016-10-30T21:10:18Z sjl: there are a lot more than two opcodes groups... these are just two examples 2016-10-30T21:11:04Z Bike: you're not going to be able to erase any underlying complexity completely 2016-10-30T21:11:13Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-30T21:11:23Z sjl: yeah probably not 2016-10-30T21:11:33Z sjl: I think this should work good enough for now 2016-10-30T21:12:03Z |3b|: why not just expand it directly in macro-map instead of making a macrolet? 2016-10-30T21:12:43Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:13:09Z |3b| would probably call it define-opcodes 2016-10-30T21:13:29Z sjl: |3b|: the macrolet handles the lambda-list destructuring, though I could probably do that somehow 2016-10-30T21:14:06Z |3b|: hmm 2016-10-30T21:16:03Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-30T21:16:07Z sjl spends hours screwing around with macros to avoid fifteen minutes of copy/paste 2016-10-30T21:16:10Z sjl: lol 2016-10-30T21:16:15Z |3b| does that too :) 2016-10-30T21:16:35Z |3b|: and then regrets it when i end up wanting to make a 1 character change in the output :p 2016-10-30T21:16:40Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:16:43Z sjl: yup 2016-10-30T21:17:10Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:17:34Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:18:44Z |3b|: yeah, don't see any obvious way to do that better now that i see what it is doing 2016-10-30T21:18:52Z vtomole joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:21:21Z sjl: and for my next trick http://paste.lisp.org/display/329945#1 2016-10-30T21:21:44Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T21:22:08Z |3b|: could possibly do something with subst instead of the macro and drop the ` 2016-10-30T21:22:27Z |3b|: not sure if that is an improvement or not 2016-10-30T21:22:40Z sjl: and eval? 2016-10-30T21:22:50Z |3b|: no 2016-10-30T21:22:53Z sjl: oh no you mean splice in the subst 2016-10-30T21:22:55Z sjl: into a progn 2016-10-30T21:23:20Z |3b|: use subst to replace DESTINATION with A for example 2016-10-30T21:23:22Z cromachina: if you dont want to give your macrolets names, then how about a macro that hides them? 2016-10-30T21:23:23Z cromachina: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329946 2016-10-30T21:24:09Z sjl: cromachina: that just does it once, I want to map it across a list of things 2016-10-30T21:24:42Z _death: the one that does something once is usually called META 2016-10-30T21:24:45Z cromachina: nothing some minor adjustments to that cant handle 2016-10-30T21:25:35Z sjl: the minor adjustments would be... what I pasted originally? 2016-10-30T21:25:50Z cromachina: oh didnt see that 2016-10-30T21:26:22Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-30T21:26:23Z sjl: yeah it's basically what you had plus an iterate to handle the mapping 2016-10-30T21:27:16Z sjl: I think this should be fine... now to find an easier-to-read gameboy z80 manual 2016-10-30T21:29:46Z |3b|: ah, i guess building the symbol makes subst harder 2016-10-30T21:30:05Z _death: maybe this is an exceptional case where nesting information should be discarded.. http://paste.lisp.org/display/329945#2 2016-10-30T21:31:39Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:32:55Z sjl: _death: I could live with assuming a single expr for the macro body, so the separator could be ditched 2016-10-30T21:33:11Z sjl: could always (progn ...) if you really need side effects in the macro (god help you) 2016-10-30T21:33:28Z _death: I guess the items should still be in a list to support something like your #. case 2016-10-30T21:34:15Z sjl: yeah that too, otherwise you somehow gotta #'apply the meta-items macro 2016-10-30T21:35:18Z _death: in any case (lambda-list items) is weird 2016-10-30T21:35:55Z _death: so I'd go with (lambda-list form items) 2016-10-30T21:36:31Z sjl: why is (lambda-list items) weird? 2016-10-30T21:36:49Z sjl: it matches (dolist (symbol things) ...) 2016-10-30T21:37:52Z _death: which I don't like to use if things is a big literal 2016-10-30T21:37:56Z sjl: I suppose I could drop the extraneous list wrapper and just have (macromap binding list &body body) 2016-10-30T21:38:55Z |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/+72L5/3 is what i meant, doesn't fix the #. problem, though you could add a product option if that's the only thing you need besides normal lists 2016-10-30T21:41:08Z _death: another name you can give it is METALIST \m/ 2016-10-30T21:41:24Z sjl: hahah 2016-10-30T21:42:40Z sjl: |3b|: ah... I could actually split it into two layers, my original + another one to handle the (define-opcode) boilerplate... 2016-10-30T21:43:51Z |3b|: i guess if you built map-product into the macro, you could also add an option to make (a a) (a b) (a c) out of a and (a b c) if that pattern happens often 2016-10-30T21:44:02Z sjl: though I think the name-building might get wonky 2016-10-30T21:44:05Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:44:49Z |3b|: yeah, had to make assumptions about how names are built to do it all with subst 2016-10-30T21:46:25Z |3b|: probably don't need the extra parens around the non-&body args either 2016-10-30T21:47:44Z pjb quit (Quit: Be seeing you.) 2016-10-30T21:48:33Z sjl: yeah sometimes I don't add them, but then I always seem to run into some stupid edge case where I need to specify an option like 4% of the time 2016-10-30T21:48:50Z sjl: and if the non-body stuff is in a list the option is easy, just add &key into the form 2016-10-30T21:49:03Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:49:10Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T21:49:24Z _death: sjl: the lambda-list should be close to the code that uses it.. that is why it's weird 2016-10-30T21:49:32Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-30T21:50:03Z sjl: e.g. the conc-name crap in https://github.com/sjl/cl-losh/blob/master/losh.lisp#L1462-L1517 2016-10-30T21:50:58Z sjl: _death: no weirder than (let ((var val) ...) ...stuff that uses var...) 2016-10-30T21:51:54Z _death: sjl: again.. the problem is when val is a wall of text 2016-10-30T21:52:17Z sjl: in my case it won't ever be a wall of text 2016-10-30T21:52:25Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T21:56:40Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T21:57:48Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T22:01:13Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T22:11:13Z Jucaa: frzn consegui nem logar lá, #ai vai sem cadastrar msm, vo ta smp por la kkk 2016-10-30T22:20:00Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-30T22:21:36Z joga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T22:25:46Z reinisch joined #lisp 2016-10-30T22:31:04Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-30T22:35:34Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-30T22:39:37Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T22:48:15Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-30T22:49:53Z Davidbrcz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T22:52:13Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T22:53:16Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T22:53:48Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-30T22:54:31Z cpape joined #lisp 2016-10-30T22:55:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T22:56:51Z p_l joined #lisp 2016-10-30T22:56:59Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2016-10-30T22:57:53Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T22:58:58Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T23:01:40Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-30T23:02:24Z _death: could be interesting if quicklisp releases file included a link to the origin repository and a commit-id, and then quicklisp can expose a grab-repo function so that it sets up the repository in the library directory.. then it's less hassle to fork 2016-10-30T23:02:44Z Xach_: I'd like to do something like that. 2016-10-30T23:03:24Z _death: likely my idea is too simplistic, but I bet you thought about it more ;) 2016-10-30T23:05:14Z Xach_: I'd very much like to provide detailed provenance info for each project 2016-10-30T23:06:10Z Xach_: Repo, fetch time, commit id, everything needed to independently get the project 2016-10-30T23:06:47Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-30T23:09:12Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T23:13:40Z _death: yes, hopefully it'll make 3rd party code feel less read-only and encourage patches 2016-10-30T23:14:42Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-30T23:14:51Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-30T23:16:09Z Xach_: yes! 2016-10-30T23:19:01Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-30T23:21:49Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-30T23:24:23Z joga joined #lisp 2016-10-30T23:25:29Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-30T23:27:14Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T23:30:02Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-30T23:30:12Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-10-30T23:31:35Z joga quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-30T23:34:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-30T23:36:14Z joga joined #lisp 2016-10-30T23:36:46Z ejbs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T23:40:15Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-30T23:41:45Z Fare: Xach: do you have statistics on whether anyone uses scl anymore? 2016-10-30T23:42:31Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T23:47:02Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-30T23:51:53Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-30T23:52:06Z joga quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-30T23:52:15Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-30T23:53:30Z joga joined #lisp 2016-10-30T23:54:02Z Dan1973 joined #lisp 2016-10-30T23:54:30Z _death: is there a quick way to add a directory with asdf systems without messing with the source-registry conf file.. just calling a function 2016-10-30T23:55:50Z Fare: push something to the *central-registry* ? 2016-10-30T23:56:06Z _death: doesn't recurse into subdirectories by default 2016-10-30T23:56:12Z Fare: but "messing with the source-registry" is the normal way of doing things 2016-10-30T23:56:19Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-30T23:56:24Z Fare: so, mess with the source-registry, and re-initialize it. 2016-10-30T23:56:24Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-30T23:56:54Z Fare: just what's wrong with the source-registry? 2016-10-30T23:57:03Z _death: yes.. that's what I mean.. I want to mess with the source-registry, but not the config file.. asdf:process-source-registry seems the operator, but what do I pass for :register 2016-10-30T23:57:16Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-30T23:57:17Z Fare: pass a parameter to initialize-source-registry 2016-10-30T23:57:57Z Fare: (i-s-r `(:source-registry (:tree ,my-dir) :inherit-configuration)) 2016-10-30T23:58:27Z Dan1973 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-30T23:59:04Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-31T00:00:43Z _death: ok, didn't want to do that because I don't understand what this parameter actually meanss (e.g., why it assigns it to a special variable) and why should it compute the whole source registry when I just want to add a bunch 2016-10-31T00:01:39Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T00:11:40Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-31T00:11:52Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T00:12:13Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-31T00:12:16Z joga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T00:19:53Z macdavid313 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T00:20:45Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-31T00:24:35Z joga joined #lisp 2016-10-31T00:24:40Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-31T00:24:53Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2016-10-31T04:19:37Z Bike: usually just copy the list 2016-10-31T04:20:22Z Bike: you could also do (list* (first foo) (second foo) 42 (nthcdr 3 foo)), but i mean, ugh, man 2016-10-31T04:20:55Z aeth: I don't need anything particularly fancy, I just am temporarily using lists for some data structure I haven't discovered yet 2016-10-31T04:21:30Z pie_ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T04:21:31Z aeth: And it looks like I want to make two or more copies of a list, with only one or two differences 2016-10-31T04:21:34Z pie_ left #lisp 2016-10-31T04:25:28Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T04:28:25Z slyrus: RichardPaulBck[m: around? 2016-10-31T04:28:33Z slyrus: morning beach 2016-10-31T04:28:45Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-31T04:28:45Z beach: Hey slyrus. Long time no see. 2016-10-31T04:28:46Z slyrus: what happened to your last apprentice? 2016-10-31T04:28:59Z slyrus: indeed! hope you and your projects are well! 2016-10-31T04:29:02Z beach: He is still around, but he is working on unrelated stuff. 2016-10-31T04:29:10Z slyrus: ah, too bad 2016-10-31T04:29:47Z beach: It's his choice. This is not a formal agreement. He hangs out here as `phoe'. 2016-10-31T04:30:33Z beach: slyrus: Will you come to ELS2017? 2016-10-31T04:31:35Z slyrus: hmm... thanks for the pointer. I'll see what I can do. 2016-10-31T04:32:50Z beach: That would be great! 2016-10-31T04:32:51Z loke really wants to go to ELS. 2016-10-31T04:35:27Z beach: loke: You definitely should. 2016-10-31T04:35:49Z Fare wonders if his current ASDF work is worth presenting at ELS... just how many times can I present work on ASDF??? 2016-10-31T04:35:54Z loke: What date was it again? 2016-10-31T04:35:59Z Fare: where is it? 2016-10-31T04:36:22Z beach: Brussels. 2016-10-31T04:37:20Z beach: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/editions/2017/ 2016-10-31T04:39:16Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-31T04:41:47Z beach: Fare: I don't think the program chair (whoever that will turn out to be) will have the ambition of turning ELS into a highly filtering event. Therefore I think there is room for a paper on ASDF progress/ideas. 2016-10-31T04:42:16Z loke wishes he had something to present. :-) 2016-10-31T04:42:27Z loke: But I don't write papers. 2016-10-31T04:42:46Z PuercoPop: beach: btw nice work on SICL's loop. I was reading the code today and is the most understandable loop implementation I've found 2016-10-31T04:43:17Z beach: PuercoPop: Oh, thank you! Nice of you to say so. 2016-10-31T04:43:50Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T04:44:24Z PuercoPop: and it doesn't appear to use CLOS for much so I'm thinking it could be adapated for JSCL replacing the defmethod with typecase/cond. I'll attempt it one of this days 2016-10-31T04:44:27Z leo_song quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-31T04:44:47Z beach: ? 2016-10-31T04:44:54Z beach: It uses CLOS a lot for the parsing. 2016-10-31T04:45:09Z leo_song joined #lisp 2016-10-31T04:45:49Z beach: Perhaps this is a different implementation of SICL. :) 2016-10-31T04:46:20Z PuercoPop: For the parsing you use combinatory parsing and use defclass as record. For code generation you use a generic functions 2016-10-31T04:46:31Z beach: Right. 2016-10-31T04:46:40Z PuercoPop: (and defclass can be replaced with defstructs :D) 2016-10-31T04:46:46Z beach: Yeah, sure. 2016-10-31T04:47:19Z beach: I am currently working on a version of the sequence functions that I am hoping will be fast, maintainable, and portable. With a bit of luck, I'll present it at ELS. 2016-10-31T04:47:30Z PuercoPop: and I don't see any around methods so, the generic functions could be adapted to normal funs with a typecase for each version (not ideal) 2016-10-31T04:47:52Z beach: PuercoPop: You might be right. I don't remember the details. 2016-10-31T04:49:23Z PuercoPop: beach: well I haven't done it yet. I'll let you know if I succeed 2016-10-31T04:49:39Z beach: Yes, please keep me up to date! 2016-10-31T04:51:06Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-31T04:52:54Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-31T04:53:12Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T04:54:44Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T04:55:12Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-31T04:55:43Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-31T05:00:46Z beach: My version of the sequence functions requires a "sufficiently smart compiler". As it turns out, the SBCL compiler is sufficiently smart, and now the pressure is on to make the Cleavir compiler sufficiently smart as well. 2016-10-31T05:01:54Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T05:02:46Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-10-31T05:04:19Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-31T05:04:36Z Bike: ah? what is needed? i've only looked at those million functions a little bit. 2016-10-31T05:05:08Z beach: I am ditching the old version with explicit functions for each case. 2016-10-31T05:07:12Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-31T05:07:35Z beach: Very preliminary: http://metamodular.com/sequence-functions.pdf 2016-10-31T05:08:33Z beach: The basic technique is illustrated in section 3. 2016-10-31T05:09:37Z Bike: seems like all that has to be done is extend type inference to array types, and maybe have an inline for typep -> typeq. 2016-10-31T05:10:45Z beach: You may be right. 2016-10-31T05:10:49Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T05:11:51Z Bike: of course, doing that for every upgraded type is kind of eh... 2016-10-31T05:12:13Z beach: It is messy, yes. 2016-10-31T05:12:22Z beach: But I think it is necessary. 2016-10-31T05:14:51Z Bike: i guess for variations in test and so on you just need a compiler macro to inline the call. 2016-10-31T05:15:30Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T05:16:30Z beach: Yes, there is a macro WITH-TEST-AND-TEST-NOT. 2016-10-31T05:16:51Z beach: It duplicates the body for specific combinations of the two, in particular EQ and EQL. 2016-10-31T05:17:22Z beach: Similarly, there is a special case for certain KEY functions such as IDENTITY, CAR, and CDR. 2016-10-31T05:17:53Z Bike: does it need to be specific to eq and eql? i feel like FIND is basic enough that you could always inline it 2016-10-31T05:18:51Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-31T05:19:48Z beach: Maybe. But it gets messy with things like :FROM-END. A compiler macro could make such a decision. 2016-10-31T05:20:34Z Bike: right... and you had your own thing for from-end, too. 2016-10-31T05:22:09Z beach: Yes. Messy, but all hidden in a macro: FOR-EACH-RELEVANT-CONS. 2016-10-31T05:28:30Z Bike: of course, this just reminds me that cleavir can't inline functions with &key lambda lists right now 2016-10-31T05:37:28Z beach: A compiler macro would replace such a call with one with no &key anyway I would think. 2016-10-31T05:38:39Z Bike: yeah probably. 2016-10-31T05:55:39Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T05:58:04Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-10-31T06:03:29Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-10-31T06:04:45Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-31T06:05:24Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-31T06:10:42Z otjura quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-31T06:20:23Z pillton: This kind of reminds me of why I wrote specialization-store. 2016-10-31T06:21:24Z Bike: yeah, it's sort of like static gfs. 2016-10-31T06:22:49Z pillton: Specialising with respect to each array element type isn't so bad. 2016-10-31T06:23:42Z Bike: not so bad, but getting a canonical list of upgraded array element types is tricky 2016-10-31T06:24:45Z pillton: Yes, there is that. 2016-10-31T06:26:56Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T06:35:13Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-10-31T06:41:05Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2016-10-31T06:41:33Z nullniverse quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T06:43:05Z ack006 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T06:45:17Z beach left #lisp 2016-10-31T06:45:44Z ack006: i literally cried my eyes out when i read this excercise (highschool outreach project, 1999!) and the example solution: https://www.cs.umd.edu/Outreach/hsContest99/questions/node8.html 2016-10-31T06:46:05Z ack006: this would have been done sooo much nicer in lisp... 2016-10-31T06:47:30Z ack006: iirc this is taken almost literally from some mit ai class, except the fact that lisp has left the building. 2016-10-31T06:49:00Z jasom: ack006: were you in HS or at UMD then? 2016-10-31T06:51:04Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-10-31T06:52:55Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-10-31T06:53:01Z ack006: jasom: no :) stumbled on it while looking for tree comparison algorithms. 2016-10-31T06:53:24Z ack006: original paper: http://www.grantjenks.com/wiki/_media/ideas:tree-to-tree_editing_problem.pdf 2016-10-31T06:53:41Z ack006: no lisp here either, strange given that it is from 1977. 2016-10-31T06:56:03Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T06:57:39Z ack006: :-) http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc//humour/lisp.tree 2016-10-31T07:00:04Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T07:00:40Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-10-31T07:04:38Z drobban quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T07:04:41Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-31T07:06:47Z younder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T07:10:06Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-31T07:11:19Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-31T07:12:40Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T07:13:38Z younder joined #lisp 2016-10-31T07:20:47Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-31T07:34:03Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-31T07:35:04Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T07:35:47Z _mjl_ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T07:38:26Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T07:39:09Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T07:40:22Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-10-31T07:45:58Z Bike quit (Quit: sleeped) 2016-10-31T07:46:48Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T07:50:49Z dwts: morning 2016-10-31T07:59:25Z beaky: hellow dw 2016-10-31T08:02:09Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T08:04:22Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T08:05:15Z beaky: so mccarthy in his history of lisp outlines what it would take to obsolete lisp. have there been any serious efforts to conceive of such a superlisp 2016-10-31T08:08:23Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T08:13:33Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-10-31T08:14:41Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-31T08:16:23Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-31T08:17:35Z daniel-s_ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T08:19:09Z joneshf-laptop quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-31T08:20:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T08:20:50Z JuanDaugherty: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/node6.html i take it; with the practical domination proviso, prolly not 2016-10-31T08:25:04Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T08:25:28Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T08:27:15Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-31T08:27:30Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-31T08:31:49Z letothesecond quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T08:32:14Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-31T08:37:40Z _mjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T08:39:34Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-31T08:41:36Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-31T08:49:08Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-31T08:51:03Z razzy89___: beaky: Artificial General inteligence? 2016-10-31T08:53:27Z razzy89___: Tell her what to do, and it will do it :] 2016-10-31T08:57:22Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-10-31T09:07:40Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-31T09:10:54Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T09:18:04Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T09:26:48Z Orion3k quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T09:34:26Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-31T09:42:07Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T09:47:09Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-10-31T09:47:42Z creat joined #lisp 2016-10-31T09:55:08Z Jucaa: Hellow 2016-10-31T09:55:31Z krasnal quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-10-31T09:56:52Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-31T09:57:47Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:05:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:07:41Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T10:09:14Z nullniverse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T10:10:48Z nullniverse joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:18:54Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:20:50Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:28:56Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T10:34:02Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:36:05Z frzn joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:37:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:37:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-10-31T10:37:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:41:56Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T10:43:24Z a--m joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:44:17Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T10:53:49Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-31T10:54:22Z beach joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:55:35Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-10-31T10:57:19Z beach: Jucaa: Are you new here? 2016-10-31T11:00:28Z Jucaa: An acquaintance pointed me actually not quite know what the subject of that channel, but he pointed out to me as being about artificial intelligence etc, would it? 2016-10-31T11:01:18Z jackdaniel: Jucaa: this channel is about Common Lisp (general purpose programming language) 2016-10-31T11:01:38Z edgar-rft: we prefer human intelligence :-) 2016-10-31T11:01:41Z jackdaniel: it may be used for artificial intelligence of course 2016-10-31T11:01:57Z beach: The language, not the channel. :) 2016-10-31T11:02:06Z jackdaniel: right ^_^ 2016-10-31T11:03:04Z Arathnim quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-31T11:03:06Z frzn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-10-31T11:03:56Z Jucaa: It is all artificial, until we are kkk 2016-10-31T11:08:24Z |3b|: Jucaa: "kkk" might not mean what you intended in english 2016-10-31T11:10:05Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T11:10:16Z hydraz is now known as SIGINT 2016-10-31T11:10:28Z Jucaa: forgot, do not speak English very well, I'm from Brazil, meant laughs with "kkkk" 2016-10-31T11:11:43Z beach: |3b|: How did you catch that? 2016-10-31T11:12:39Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-10-31T11:12:51Z SIGINT is now known as amused 2016-10-31T11:12:54Z a--m quit 2016-10-31T11:13:16Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2016-10-31T11:13:25Z a--m joined #lisp 2016-10-31T11:14:08Z |3b|: beach: Jucaa said something in the past using same phrase that google translate thought was Portuguese, so thought it might be regional slang, and a searching for portuguese internet slang found a list including the term 2016-10-31T11:14:35Z beach: I am impressed. 2016-10-31T11:15:23Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-10-31T11:17:03Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T11:17:36Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T11:17:44Z Jucaa: Ever wanted to learn English, I opted for the Spanish, now regret. 2016-10-31T11:20:50Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-10-31T11:25:20Z |3b|: Jucaa: you could also try #lisp-br #lisp-pt or #lisp-es not sure any of those are about artificial intelligence in general though 2016-10-31T11:26:52Z Jucaa: thank you 2016-10-31T11:26:56Z Jucaa left #lisp 2016-10-31T11:29:45Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-31T11:31:11Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-31T11:33:07Z daniel-s_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T11:34:38Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T11:35:10Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-31T11:36:52Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T11:40:51Z a--m quit 2016-10-31T11:43:14Z a--m joined #lisp 2016-10-31T11:46:29Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T11:49:37Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-31T11:50:06Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-31T11:52:44Z ack006 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T11:52:57Z ack006 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T11:53:18Z ack006 quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-31T11:57:06Z a--m quit 2016-10-31T11:58:10Z a--m joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:00:50Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:02:32Z aphprentice quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T12:04:24Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:05:56Z aphprentice quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-31T12:06:25Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T12:07:10Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:07:12Z ak5 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T12:07:51Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:08:26Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:09:18Z ak5 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:10:46Z a--m quit 2016-10-31T12:12:20Z Ando_ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:14:12Z Atarian quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T12:14:50Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T12:21:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:21:36Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T12:25:14Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:25:52Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T12:27:30Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:30:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:30:24Z Ioann joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:32:11Z |3b|: is there any way to find the source for a function object in slime/sbcl? 2016-10-31T12:33:43Z |3b|: ah, i guess this function doesn't have any source anyway:/ 2016-10-31T12:41:10Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:41:38Z przl joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:41:58Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T12:44:22Z ASau`` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:44:46Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:45:45Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T12:45:53Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T12:46:31Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T12:48:30Z Xach_: the immaculate function? 2016-10-31T12:50:27Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T12:50:53Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:52:05Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T12:52:13Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:52:52Z ASau`` is now known as ASau 2016-10-31T12:52:53Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:53:41Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:55:04Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-10-31T12:55:10Z jason_m quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-31T13:00:43Z msmith joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:01:34Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:04:57Z zeroish joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:05:46Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:06:08Z msmith: hello all. I assumed that when you start another process in sbcl via sb-ext::run-program from slime, control would be returned like if you spawned a new thread. Was this an incorrect assumption? 2016-10-31T13:06:39Z Xach_: msmith: it depends on how you start it 2016-10-31T13:06:40Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T13:06:58Z Xach_: msmith: there is a :WAIT argument that controls what happens. 2016-10-31T13:07:06Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:07:10Z msmith: hey Xach_ 2016-10-31T13:07:24Z Xach_: msmith: i don't recall the default, but if :wait is nil, the call returns an object you can check for the process status. 2016-10-31T13:07:32Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T13:08:35Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:09:08Z msmith: I start it without the wait argument but the program that is run has an infinite loop. 2016-10-31T13:10:27Z msmith: Xach_: thanks 2016-10-31T13:10:28Z Xach_: msmith: omitting the wait argument is the same as providing the default, practically 2016-10-31T13:10:36Z Xach_: msmith: and it looks like the default is T 2016-10-31T13:11:26Z msmith: Xach_: I ran it with wait as nil and it performed as you described which is the desired behavior. I think :-). 2016-10-31T13:12:28Z |3b|: Xach_: nah, just generated then compiled with (compile nil ...) 2016-10-31T13:12:51Z Xach_: msmith: very good! 2016-10-31T13:12:52Z msmith: Xach_: The end goal is to be able to send data to the process via a stream, preferrably reading and to file descriptors. 2016-10-31T13:13:37Z |3b|: you can ask for lisp streams, not sure about FDs 2016-10-31T13:14:01Z |3b|: probably could extract FDs from the streams if really needed though 2016-10-31T13:15:03Z msmith: 3b: thanks I'll look into that. 2016-10-31T13:16:01Z |3b|: :wait nil :output :stream :input :stream 2016-10-31T13:16:51Z |3b|: then (sb-ext:process-output foo) where foo is return from run-program, similar for sb-ext:process-input 2016-10-31T13:17:02Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:17:04Z JoshYoshi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T13:17:24Z Xach_: sockets are a form of IPC, too 2016-10-31T13:18:25Z daniel-s_ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:18:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:20:48Z dyelar quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-31T13:21:18Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:22:13Z |3b|: and don't forget finish-output/flush-output, might also want read-char-no-hang 2016-10-31T13:23:08Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:23:10Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:23:12Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T13:23:32Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:25:01Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:28:15Z keutoi joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:30:16Z a--m joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:31:57Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T13:34:43Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:36:20Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T13:37:44Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T13:38:54Z ASau`` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:39:46Z pipping: msmith: there's also uiop:run-program/uiop:launch-program, which is meant to be a portable wrapper around e.g. (sb-ext:run-program ... :wait t) and (sb-ext:run-program ... :wait nil) 2016-10-31T13:40:38Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:41:05Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T13:41:08Z |3b| found uiop's run-program to be lacking in that area when i tried it :( 2016-10-31T13:42:36Z |3b|: (might have been a windows specific problem though, don't remember... not that i got things to work right anyway since the program i wanted to run didn't like being run that way on windows) 2016-10-31T13:43:12Z Fare: or you could simply use uiop:run-program 2016-10-31T13:43:55Z |3b|: can it give you in/out streams for a long-running child process? 2016-10-31T13:44:23Z Fare: only in the latest soon-to-be-released 3.1.7.x series 2016-10-31T13:44:39Z |3b|: ah, cool 2016-10-31T13:45:12Z Fare: but portably to abcl allegro clozure cmucl ecl (and lispworks os-unix) mkcl sbcl scl 2016-10-31T13:45:15Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-10-31T13:45:17Z |3b|: not that it would fix windows emacs :/ 2016-10-31T13:45:35Z Fare: what's broken on windows emacs? 2016-10-31T13:45:41Z |3b|: but i guess i could still use it to ssh to linux emacs when i got to that point 2016-10-31T13:45:58Z |3b|: it uses windows console for text mode 2016-10-31T13:46:23Z Fare: there's an emacs that uses the window graphic mode, you know 2016-10-31T13:46:25Z |3b|: so need ugly hacks at best to get access to its in/out, and even then you only get 1 text-mode window 2016-10-31T13:46:38Z |3b|: Fare: doesn't help if i want to display the text myself :) 2016-10-31T13:47:01Z Fare: oh. what are you trying to do? 2016-10-31T13:47:04Z |3b|: (for example when wearing an HMD so i can't see the graphics mode window) 2016-10-31T13:47:18Z Fare: time to resurrect hemlock? 2016-10-31T13:47:38Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:48:05Z |3b|: yeah, one of the CL editors is an option, do any of them have equivalent of slime? 2016-10-31T13:48:33Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:48:34Z |3b| crashes lisp too much to run my editor in same image, unless it has very good state crash recovery 2016-10-31T13:49:00Z |3b|: (equivalent of the remote connection part of slime i mean) 2016-10-31T13:50:45Z |3b|: then there's all the random emacs bits i'd miss or need to spend time reimplementing, and i'm already a few stacks of yaks away from even being at the point of displaying the result anyway without replacing my editor:p 2016-10-31T13:51:10Z dlowe: and that's why we all still use emacs 2016-10-31T13:51:15Z raydeejay: "Use ED!"? 2016-10-31T13:52:29Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T13:52:41Z |3b|: dlowe: yep :( 2016-10-31T13:53:44Z dlowe: Seems to me like some person with more time than me could mash Qt/GTK and guile elisp together to make an emacs that's more sane under the hood. 2016-10-31T13:55:09Z foom: GNU emacs already mashed in gtk. :) 2016-10-31T13:55:12Z |3b| also doesn't have the time for the other option of hacking a shared-mem or whatever backend for gnu emacs 2016-10-31T13:55:24Z dlowe: foom: that did not make it more sane. 2016-10-31T13:55:41Z foom: dlowe: no....no, it did not. 2016-10-31T13:56:13Z dlowe: though after using emacs in daemon mode exclusively, I think a system with editor server/clients is the way to go. 2016-10-31T13:57:01Z a--m quit 2016-10-31T13:57:03Z |3b| also considers trying to control it over a socket and just dump screen contents back as fairly raw text, but i don't know enough elisp/emacs to tell how hard that would be 2016-10-31T13:57:34Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:57:38Z |3b|: yeah, as long as it doesn't implement the display in the server :) 2016-10-31T13:57:59Z dlowe: exactly. 2016-10-31T13:58:39Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T13:58:51Z foom: it does implement the display in the server, doesn't it? 2016-10-31T13:59:03Z foom: I thought emacsclient just sent the TTY to the server, and the server ran the whole thing 2016-10-31T13:59:13Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:59:13Z |3b|: sshing from windows to emacs running on linux connecting to lisp on windows is ugly, but would probably work fairly easily 2016-10-31T13:59:14Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-10-31T13:59:31Z foom: |3b|: you *could* just use unix emacs on windows 2016-10-31T13:59:32Z |3b|: foom: right, which is why it only has 1 console on windows 2016-10-31T13:59:44Z |3b|: foom: on windows 8? 2016-10-31T13:59:48Z |3b|: .1 2016-10-31T14:00:12Z foom: well, cygwin has an emacs 2016-10-31T14:00:21Z |3b|: and even the linux-on-win10 thing sounded like it would not be much better than remote emacs 2016-10-31T14:01:00Z |3b| tried cygwin, its pty emulation didn't work with normal sbcl host, anbd was flaky even when i tried it from another cygwin emacs 2016-10-31T14:01:18Z |3b|: (and emacs requires a pty for text mode, and can't just talk to stdin/out) 2016-10-31T14:01:35Z ASau`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T14:01:36Z foom: I thought you just wanted to run emacs in the pty, not sbcl 2016-10-31T14:01:44Z |3b|: right, from sbcl 2016-10-31T14:02:00Z ASau`` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:02:06Z foom: oh, that's pretty complicated. :) 2016-10-31T14:02:09Z dlowe: that's what pseudo-ttys are for 2016-10-31T14:02:10Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T14:02:14Z |3b|: and windows doesn't have PTY, so non-cygwin process can't talk to cygwin fake pty 2016-10-31T14:02:18Z dlowe: right. 2016-10-31T14:02:28Z joga: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/31/google_man_drags_emacs_into_the_1990s :) 2016-10-31T14:02:58Z dlowe: I'm surprised that escaped into mainstream media 2016-10-31T14:03:03Z |3b|: heh 2016-10-31T14:03:32Z pipping: |3b|: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/test/test-run-program-unix.script#L194-621 should give you an impression what run-program/launch-program can currently do 2016-10-31T14:03:44Z foom: funny, i've never noticed that problem 2016-10-31T14:03:55Z amused is now known as hydraz 2016-10-31T14:04:25Z foom: Maybe because my display has a compositor, so everything's buffered anyways? (I dunno how this crap works, but that sounds plausible) 2016-10-31T14:04:42Z pipping: Fare: do you have any thoughts on https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1636903 ? 2016-10-31T14:05:06Z pipping will only be able to read replies in a few hours, unfortunately, gotta run now 2016-10-31T14:05:28Z dlowe: I haven't noticed, but I bet emacsclient is hiding it somehow 2016-10-31T14:05:29Z |3b|: pipping: yeah, from what Fare said, the feature i was missing will be out soon :) 2016-10-31T14:09:38Z saturniid joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:10:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:11:51Z sword joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:12:13Z sword is now known as Guest22028 2016-10-31T14:13:11Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:17:34Z msmith left #lisp 2016-10-31T14:19:56Z |3b| may end up with a CL editor in place of emacs text-mode hacks anyway though, might get too unwieldy for the number of windows i might end up wanting 2016-10-31T14:21:35Z Roargh joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:22:38Z dlowe: |3b|: you might think about using the emacs server protocol to control an emacs instance. 2016-10-31T14:22:47Z Roargh left #lisp 2016-10-31T14:24:04Z |3b|: dlowe: could that give me the contents of a window? (in the emacs sense of window, and possibly one that isn't displayed otherwise) 2016-10-31T14:24:21Z dlowe: |3b|: emacsclient does it somehow. 2016-10-31T14:24:34Z |3b|: emacsclient just tells the server to do it :/ 2016-10-31T14:24:48Z |3b|: "hey, open a display on this PTY" or something like that 2016-10-31T14:25:11Z |3b|: (or "open a display on the windows console") 2016-10-31T14:25:25Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T14:25:29Z dlowe: oh. that's really sad. 2016-10-31T14:25:50Z |3b|: at least that's my understanding 2016-10-31T14:25:59Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:26:27Z |3b|: i think i looked at that option as well, when i first ran into the problem 2016-10-31T14:26:30Z dlowe: so I couldn't, say, run emacsclient on my desktop to control a remove server 2016-10-31T14:26:34Z dlowe: *remote 2016-10-31T14:28:54Z raydeejay: well 2016-10-31T14:29:09Z raydeejay: you could ssh -Y (or -X?) 2016-10-31T14:29:19Z dlowe: sure, I get that. 2016-10-31T14:29:27Z |3b| isn't sure it works over network sockets anyway 2016-10-31T14:29:38Z raydeejay: you need to tell it to use a network socket 2016-10-31T14:30:09Z ASau``` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:30:29Z |3b|: might be able to control it remotely aside from telling it to open a text window then 2016-10-31T14:31:18Z dlowe: wait, no. It's got to go through emacsclient somehow for terminal mode. Though I guess it could just say "output these bytes." 2016-10-31T14:31:21Z |3b|: (if you don't care about probably unsecured sockets on the network) 2016-10-31T14:31:24Z ASau`` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T14:31:49Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:33:50Z ASau```` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:35:40Z ASau``` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T14:37:38Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T14:38:22Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-31T14:38:26Z |3b|: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/lib-src/emacsclient.c#n1712 i think is what it does, and server handle IO :/ 2016-10-31T14:39:42Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:41:09Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:45:37Z xuxuru: anyone familiar with this logging utility? https://github.com/nallen05/logv 2016-10-31T14:48:41Z rippa joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:52:52Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T14:56:18Z getha quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T14:56:31Z ASau```` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T14:56:54Z ASau```` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:57:22Z sharkteeth joined #lisp 2016-10-31T14:58:06Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:06:52Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T15:08:23Z MetaHertz joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:09:43Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:13:40Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:19:17Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:19:29Z ovenpasta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T15:20:46Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:21:46Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:22:22Z joshe joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:27:27Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T15:33:37Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:35:13Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-31T15:39:43Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-31T15:40:02Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:40:14Z Munksgaard quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-31T15:48:26Z xuxuru quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-31T15:48:40Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:50:19Z Guest22028 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T15:51:02Z ASau````` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:51:50Z ASau```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T15:53:29Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:55:28Z ASau````` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T15:55:34Z mordocai quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.2+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-31T15:56:43Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:58:24Z mordocai joined #lisp 2016-10-31T15:59:13Z mordocai quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-31T15:59:53Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:01:00Z mordocai joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:01:04Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:01:05Z Fare: |3b|, and pipping did all the hard work on that feature, btw. 2016-10-31T16:02:36Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T16:03:30Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T16:04:43Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-31T16:05:39Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:07:09Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-31T16:12:56Z pichar quit (K-Lined) 2016-10-31T16:15:27Z Jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-10-31T16:15:32Z pichar joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:16:08Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:16:39Z keutoi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-31T16:16:53Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:18:48Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-31T16:21:40Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-31T16:26:40Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:35:16Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T16:36:56Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T16:40:20Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-31T16:42:58Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T16:44:41Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T16:45:16Z ASau` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:46:57Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T16:47:00Z bluezone joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:50:00Z ASau`` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:50:45Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-31T16:50:46Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:51:59Z klltkr joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:57:29Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-10-31T16:58:00Z PuercoPop: Does anyone know a good intro to logical pathnames? When is it a good idea to use them? 2016-10-31T16:58:24Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-31T16:59:18Z Xach_: PuercoPop: CLTL2 has a good intro. 2016-10-31T17:00:19Z Xach_: PuercoPop: I think it's good if all pathnames appear in source code and you can enumerate them. It's not for mapping arbitrary logical names to arbitrary physical names. 2016-10-31T17:00:47Z Xach_: PuercoPop: it's designed for a particular style of application, though. not something you would put into a library and share, because it requires tailoring at the point of use, not the point of authorship. 2016-10-31T17:03:38Z PuercoPop: Xach_: Thanks. I'm thinking of using them to be able to refer easily to the a root directory of a flat file database 2016-10-31T17:03:59Z floatingman quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-31T17:04:10Z Xach_: PuercoPop: A special variable might do just as well in that situation. 2016-10-31T17:06:16Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T17:06:28Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:06:34Z floatingman joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:07:16Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:08:31Z Joanna__ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:10:17Z PuercoPop: yes, that is the first thing I thought of 2016-10-31T17:17:08Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T17:17:19Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:20:37Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T17:23:04Z wooden_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T17:23:08Z Posterdati: hi 2016-10-31T17:23:48Z Posterdati: what is the package "editor-hints.named-readtables" and why it isn't quickloadable on i386 systems? 2016-10-31T17:24:19Z Xach_: Posterdati: it is a system for naming and managing readtables. i don't know why it isn't quickloadable on i386 systems. what indicates that to you? 2016-10-31T17:25:07Z Posterdati: because I'm trying to make gsll and antik with ecl on openbsd i386, but I've got errors 2016-10-31T17:25:20Z Xach_: that is a little more specific than "i386 systems" 2016-10-31T17:25:32Z Xach_: What is the error for named-readtables? 2016-10-31T17:25:37Z Posterdati: now I'm trying to load same packages on ecl linux am64 and it seems to work 2016-10-31T17:26:35Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:27:18Z Posterdati: Xach_: wait please reloading antik on openbsd i386 2016-10-31T17:27:29Z Posterdati: Condition of type: SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR 2016-10-31T17:27:30Z Posterdati: Cannot export symbol TENTH from locked package #<"COMMON-LISP" package>. 2016-10-31T17:27:34Z sweater joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:27:43Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:27:52Z Posterdati: it mess up with readtables 2016-10-31T17:28:35Z Xach_: Posterdati: you get that when you try to load named-readtables? 2016-10-31T17:28:42Z Posterdati: no 2016-10-31T17:28:56Z Posterdati: > (ql:quickload :antik) 2016-10-31T17:29:03Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:29:13Z Posterdati: the error came up loading antik 2016-10-31T17:29:16Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T17:30:22Z Posterdati: same thing on amd64 2016-10-31T17:31:06Z Posterdati: Condition of type: SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR 2016-10-31T17:31:06Z Posterdati: Cannot export symbol TENTH from locked package #<"COMMON-LISP" package>. 2016-10-31T17:32:02Z Posterdati: seems an ecl problem 2016-10-31T17:32:16Z Xach_: Interesting message 2016-10-31T17:32:28Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:33:06Z Posterdati: because quantities are expressed using #_3.14_m 2016-10-31T17:33:11Z Posterdati: #_ 2016-10-31T17:33:33Z Posterdati: the reader is not setup correctly 2016-10-31T17:34:06Z Xach_: I wouldn't have guessed from the error message. 2016-10-31T17:34:59Z Posterdati: on sbcl it works 2016-10-31T17:35:00Z MetaHertz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T17:35:01Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:35:56Z shka joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:36:33Z Posterdati: now I'm trying to quickload gsll on ecl for amd64 2016-10-31T17:37:58Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T17:39:45Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T17:40:19Z Posterdati: Xach_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329990 2016-10-31T17:40:35Z ASau``` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:41:37Z ASau`` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T17:41:53Z Posterdati: antik loads gsll 2016-10-31T17:44:20Z ASau```` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:44:57Z Posterdati: Xach_: ? 2016-10-31T17:45:59Z Jameser quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T17:46:08Z ASau``` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T17:46:11Z Xach_: I do not have any insight, sorry. 2016-10-31T17:46:25Z Xach_: i386, openbsd, ecl, and gsll are all things that do not interest me 2016-10-31T17:46:35Z Posterdati: ok, thanks 2016-10-31T17:47:35Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T17:50:30Z akkad: .oO(but openbsd makes it secure) 2016-10-31T17:50:37Z Joanna__ left #lisp 2016-10-31T17:51:34Z akkad: Xach_: you all linux? 2016-10-31T17:51:39Z White_Flame: .oO(only Amiga makes it possible!) 2016-10-31T17:52:08Z msmith joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:52:15Z akkad has no 68k with enough ram to run anything but that ancient franz lisp for bsd 2016-10-31T17:53:52Z Posterdati: akkad: are you on openbsd? 2016-10-31T17:53:55Z akkad: BE cisc ftw 2016-10-31T17:54:03Z akkad: Posterdati: close. netbsd 2016-10-31T17:54:23Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:54:42Z akkad: but I find it easier to just run the linux versions. 2016-10-31T17:55:01Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-10-31T17:57:02Z Posterdati: akkad: are you using ecl? 2016-10-31T17:57:35Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:01:22Z msmith: I made a paste at http://paste.lisp.org/+72MF. could use some insight. 2016-10-31T18:01:41Z solene quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-10-31T18:01:56Z solene joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:03:25Z Posterdati: msmith: ? 2016-10-31T18:03:54Z White_Flame: did you make sure (gethash "process_name" *engine-streams*) is returning something sane? 2016-10-31T18:04:19Z msmith: White_Flame: Yes, the stream is there 2016-10-31T18:06:41Z White_Flame: you might have input & output reversed. re-read the docs 2016-10-31T18:06:57Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:07:00Z White_Flame: "process-input" means output from lisp, input to the process 2016-10-31T18:07:39Z White_Flame: as in the process's stdin 2016-10-31T18:09:21Z xristos quit (*.net *.split) 2016-10-31T18:12:25Z |3b|: why the make-fd-stream/fd-stream-fd stuff? 2016-10-31T18:12:46Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-10-31T18:13:23Z |3b|: also, check process status and make sure child process is still running 2016-10-31T18:14:17Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:14:21Z reinisch joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:18:16Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T18:19:38Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T18:21:18Z sharkteeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T18:22:19Z ASau```` is now known as ASau 2016-10-31T18:27:03Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T18:33:49Z zygentoma|2 joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:34:10Z rjid joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:35:07Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-10-31T18:35:19Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:36:43Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T18:37:20Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T18:37:47Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:37:54Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T18:38:04Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:38:15Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:39:38Z ASau`` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:41:32Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:44:09Z tetero joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:46:13Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:48:49Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:50:17Z tetero quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2016-10-31T18:50:24Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T18:51:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-31T18:52:11Z Xach_: slyrus: hope postmodern ist gut! 2016-10-31T18:52:28Z gingerale- is now known as gingerale 2016-10-31T18:56:17Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-31T18:58:08Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-31T18:59:00Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:00:02Z schally joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:00:22Z razzy89___ quit (Quit: razzy89___) 2016-10-31T19:06:59Z bluezone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-10-31T19:07:04Z zygentoma|2 quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-10-31T19:07:12Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:07:12Z zygentoma quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-31T19:07:45Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:09:34Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:10:03Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T19:13:08Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T19:14:42Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:16:51Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T19:16:58Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:17:45Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T19:18:40Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:18:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:21:12Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:29:54Z klltkr: Okay, so I'm looking to run swank single threaded. If I just set :style :fd-handler (or :sigio for that matter), slime-connect just hangs. I'm guessing it's because my application if sitting in a loop, drawing with OpenGL, processing events. Now in this loop I am already polling on a couple of file descriptors. I'm wondering if I can also poll a file descriptor associated with swank and process swank events when they appea 2016-10-31T19:29:54Z klltkr: r. Does anyone know if this is possible / how I would do this? 2016-10-31T19:30:15Z ASau``` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:30:36Z ASau`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T19:34:27Z ASau```` joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:34:43Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T19:35:38Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T19:35:58Z ASau``` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T19:42:00Z xuxuru joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:42:11Z slyrus: Xach: it's good and getting better :) 2016-10-31T19:42:29Z tomaw_ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:44:16Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:44:50Z cmack joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:45:17Z xuxuru quit (Client Quit) 2016-10-31T19:53:26Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-10-31T19:54:44Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T19:56:00Z Xach_: good good 2016-10-31T19:56:03Z msmith: Xach: White_Flame: anyone else, mind looking at http://paste.lisp.org/+72MF/1 2016-10-31T19:56:36Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-31T19:56:57Z Xach_: msmith: buffering 2016-10-31T19:57:50Z |3b|: why are you making an fd-stream out of a different fd-stream? 2016-10-31T19:58:08Z BusFactor1 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-10-31T19:58:52Z msmith: 3b: where do you see that I am? 2016-10-31T19:58:55Z warweasle quit (Quit: Random weirdness...) 2016-10-31T19:59:38Z |3b|: is that not what (sb-sys::make-fd-stream (sb-sys::fd-stream-fd ...) ...) does? 2016-10-31T19:59:51Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2016-10-31T20:01:30Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-31T20:01:31Z pierpa joined #lisp 2016-10-31T20:02:29Z |3b|: run-program accepts :external-format, can't think of anything else it would change (aside from maybe confusing pretty printing and buffering) 2016-10-31T20:04:03Z msmith: 3b: fd-stream-fd does not return an fd-stream unless I'm mistaken 2016-10-31T20:04:18Z |3b|: no, it returns the fd from an fd-stream 2016-10-31T20:04:31Z |3b|: so you have an fd-stream, extract the fd, then use that to create an fd-stream 2016-10-31T20:05:05Z |3b|: (and that's aside from the sb-sys:: part looking like a bad idea) 2016-10-31T20:05:09Z msmith: 3b: right, and make-fd-stream takes a fd 2016-10-31T20:05:24Z raydeejay supposes that it is to not cross the streams 2016-10-31T20:05:53Z |3b|: raydeejay: didn't work, in fact it most likely masked the crossing of streams earlier :p 2016-10-31T20:06:04Z raydeejay: /o\ but that's BAD!! 2016-10-31T20:06:08Z |3b|: msmith: why do you want to call make-fd-stream at all? 2016-10-31T20:06:21Z |3b|: raydeejay: yeah, it didn't work very well :) 2016-10-31T20:07:05Z msmith: 3b: because I want use it for interprocess programming 2016-10-31T20:07:12Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-31T20:07:28Z |3b|: no, why do you call that specific function 2016-10-31T20:07:53Z |3b|: you want to use a stream connected to the process? you had one before you called it 2016-10-31T20:08:06Z |3b|: you want it to be an fd-stream? it already was one 2016-10-31T20:08:21Z msmith: 3b: ok, explain please. where? 2016-10-31T20:08:53Z |3b|: fd-stream-fd is an accessor defined by defstruct fd-stream, so i doubt it accepts anything other than an fd-stream 2016-10-31T20:10:00Z |3b|: sb-ext:process-output returns a stream, presumably an fd-stream since you can pass it to fd-stream-fd 2016-10-31T20:11:32Z |3b| suspects i have failed to communicate somewhere, which is why i was asking for your intent of calling make-fd-stream 2016-10-31T20:12:15Z msmith: 3b: so I should be able to just make a two way stream with just process-output and process-input? 2016-10-31T20:12:26Z |3b| doesn't see any reason why not 2016-10-31T20:12:57Z |3b|: possibly specify the :external-format in run-program if it matters 2016-10-31T20:13:45Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T20:14:30Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-10-31T20:16:25Z msmith: 3b: thanks, tried it and no errors 2016-10-31T20:16:39Z razzy89___ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T20:19:47Z msmith: 3b: then main problem still exists however in that I can't seem to write to the stupid process. Any ideas? 2016-10-31T20:19:56Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T20:20:28Z msmith: 3b: I'm writing to the two way stream that gets created in start-engine 2016-10-31T20:20:35Z |3b| 's guess is also buffering 2016-10-31T20:21:27Z |3b|: try adding finish-output, and whatever the equivalent is on the other side (fflush or something maybe?) 2016-10-31T20:21:30Z msmith: 3b: when Xach: said that I thought he was joking that HE was buffering lol 2016-10-31T20:21:52Z tomaw_ quit (Quit: Quitting) 2016-10-31T20:22:09Z msmith: I run a force-output after running format 2016-10-31T20:22:17Z msmith: with the stream as the target 2016-10-31T20:22:36Z msmith: I can try setting buffering to nil i gues 2016-10-31T20:22:55Z |3b|: what does the current code look like, including the code doing the input/output? 2016-10-31T20:23:29Z msmith: 3b: one sec 2016-10-31T20:25:59Z joga quit (Changing host) 2016-10-31T20:25:59Z joga joined #lisp 2016-10-31T20:26:36Z ASau```` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T20:29:14Z msmith: 3b: http://paste.lisp.org/+72MF/2 2016-10-31T20:30:40Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T20:36:15Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-10-31T20:44:16Z sweater quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T20:47:46Z |3b|: msmith: are you running the output command manually? (so some delay between them and the stop command) 2016-10-31T20:49:09Z |3b| would also check for errors in the python side, just in case 2016-10-31T20:49:51Z |3b|: (particularly things like failing to read/write stdin/out) 2016-10-31T20:52:05Z xristos joined #lisp 2016-10-31T20:52:19Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T20:52:55Z xristos is now known as Guest20298 2016-10-31T20:53:19Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-31T20:53:49Z hydraz is now known as amused 2016-10-31T20:54:50Z msmith: 3b: yeah, I'm thinking it's the python 2016-10-31T20:54:59Z msmith: 3b: thanks for your help 2016-10-31T20:55:11Z |3b|: the txt file gets created? 2016-10-31T20:55:30Z msmith: yes, if I remove the for loop listening to stdin 2016-10-31T20:55:48Z msmith: fails otherwise 2016-10-31T21:08:28Z schally quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T21:09:25Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T21:13:10Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:13:28Z Rumbles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T21:13:32Z msmith: 3b: pretty interesting. It's like run-program does like it's processes to have loops 2016-10-31T21:13:38Z Rumbles joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:14:10Z msmith: 3b: or the process with loops doesn't like being run by run-program 2016-10-31T21:14:10Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T21:14:45Z |3b|: yeah, not sure what's going on there 2016-10-31T21:15:05Z |3b|: though one thing i did see, you might want to write a newline if the loop is reading by line 2016-10-31T21:15:35Z |3b|: doesn't seem to be helping here, though i could have broken something else instead 2016-10-31T21:16:22Z |3b|: maybe also finish-output instead of force-output, though i don't think that should matter 2016-10-31T21:17:13Z jcowan joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:17:51Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:23:42Z toogley quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T21:24:46Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:25:46Z toogley joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:26:06Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:29:01Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:29:28Z daniel-s_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T21:30:26Z rpg: Xach_: Is it possible to have multiple different Quicklisp setups for a single user, by putting one in someplace other than ~/quicklisp/ ? 2016-10-31T21:30:57Z |3b|: msmith: i think for line in sys.stdin blocks until EOF or something when input isn't a tty :/ 2016-10-31T21:31:05Z XachX_: rpg: sure. You can't load more than one at a time though. Is that what you wanted ? 2016-10-31T21:31:21Z daniel-s_ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:31:23Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:31:27Z |3b|: msmith: either use sys.stdin.readline or tell sbcl to allocate a pty 2016-10-31T21:32:03Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-10-31T21:32:03Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:32:10Z rpg: Yes, I have a system that I'm getting tired of maintaining repos for every single library. That system is built by setting up a bunch of directories in known positions -- I was thinking of having it also make its own QL installation. 2016-10-31T21:33:33Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:33:53Z PuercoPop: Just tried spinneret under parenscript. It generates the javascript to build the corresponding DOM. Pretty Cool! 2016-10-31T21:33:56Z rpg: Looks like we could take your quicklisp.lisp and make our own custom copy with a different value for *HOME* 2016-10-31T21:34:56Z fourier quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-10-31T21:35:27Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:36:12Z |3b|: PuercoPop: does it have an option for safely indented html? 2016-10-31T21:36:19Z msmith quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-31T21:36:37Z PuercoPop: |3b|: what do you mean by safely indented? 2016-10-31T21:36:46Z shum joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:36:47Z PuercoPop: it has a pretty print option 2016-10-31T21:36:51Z |3b|: not adding random whitespace all over your document 2016-10-31T21:37:06Z |3b|: > 2016-10-31T21:38:06Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T21:38:10Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T21:38:26Z XachX_: rpg: why modified? 2016-10-31T21:38:59Z rpg: XachX_: So that when this new quicklisp installs systems they go into a different place than the user's standard ~/quicklisp/ directory. 2016-10-31T21:39:06Z XachX_: rpg: it's trivial to move quicklisp anywhere with no code changes. 2016-10-31T21:39:11Z |3b|: PuercoPop: aside from that it looks interesting 2016-10-31T21:39:13Z PuercoPop: |3b|: with *print-pretty* bound to nil it prints everything in oneline (The CL version that is) 2016-10-31T21:39:18Z XachX_: rpg: it works from wherever it starts. 2016-10-31T21:39:39Z PuercoPop: although there is one space between and 2016-10-31T21:39:48Z rpg: XachX_: Right. But quicklisp.lisp initially populates ~/quicklisp/ and my new quicklisp set up should not mess with the user's pre-existing QL. 2016-10-31T21:39:52Z shum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T21:39:58Z |3b|: right, but pretty printing is there for a reason, so would be nice to be able to use it without changing the result in the browser 2016-10-31T21:40:07Z |3b| isn't sure a space there is a problem 2016-10-31T21:40:19Z XachX_: rpg: the installer takes an argument. 2016-10-31T21:40:20Z rpg: XachX_: So I thought if I cause the initial installation to set up in /quicklisp/ that would solve my problem. 2016-10-31T21:41:30Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:41:49Z rpg: XachX_: Ah. I see. The banner when you load quicklisp.lisp doesn't say that. 2016-10-31T21:41:52Z PuercoPop: |3b|: Btw I submited a small documentation PR for 3bmd (along with moving the commented out code to a test incipient suite, but separated everything in different commits so you could discard something you didn't like 2016-10-31T21:42:23Z rpg: I probably should have paid more attention to the help, thanks! 2016-10-31T21:42:40Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T21:42:46Z |3b|: oh yeah, keep reminding me about that so i don't forget again (don't have time today though) 2016-10-31T21:43:51Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:44:44Z PuercoPop: k 2016-10-31T21:45:19Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2016-10-31T21:45:55Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T21:48:26Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:51:47Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-10-31T21:52:09Z msmith joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:53:22Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:54:00Z warweasle: Hello 2016-10-31T21:54:50Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T21:55:17Z XachX_: rpg: true. But it's in the help text and faq. 2016-10-31T21:55:32Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T21:55:51Z rpg: yep I see it now, thanks. 2016-10-31T21:56:25Z rpg: sorry I missed it. I was too-hastily reading the source. 2016-10-31T21:56:39Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T21:58:19Z rpg: This is going to make project maintenance much easier. 2016-10-31T21:58:21Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-31T21:58:32Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-31T21:58:36Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-31T21:59:30Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T22:01:19Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-31T22:01:32Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:06:27Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T22:06:40Z prole joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:06:45Z dddddd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T22:07:42Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:07:45Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T22:08:25Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2016-10-31T22:10:10Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:15:06Z ikki joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:15:17Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:15:44Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T22:20:34Z paakku joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:22:25Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-10-31T22:22:32Z paakku: can someone confirm whether I remember this correctly: in AutoLISP, an interpreted function is represented by a list in which the CAR is the parameter list and the CDR is the body of the function, i.e., there is no LAMBDA symbol in the list 2016-10-31T22:24:06Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T22:24:32Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-10-31T22:26:32Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T22:28:44Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-10-31T22:29:11Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-31T22:31:26Z jasom: minion: memo for mordocai: did the cl-whoize end up being at all usable? 2016-10-31T22:31:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell mordocai when he/she/it next speaks. 2016-10-31T22:34:12Z msmith quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T22:34:18Z aeth: Are there UDP libraries that run on Linux and Windows, preferably without a C dependency? usocket looks like the only one, but I could be wrong. 2016-10-31T22:36:17Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T22:36:35Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:37:56Z aeth: Oh, it looks like iolib has Windows support despite the rather Unixy sounding dependency on "libfixposix". 2016-10-31T22:45:04Z warweasle quit (Quit: brb...changing internet...) 2016-10-31T22:45:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T22:45:33Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:45:41Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-10-31T22:47:45Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:48:20Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T22:50:12Z Rumbles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-10-31T22:50:56Z pankracy_ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:51:17Z eivarv joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:51:22Z pankracy_: hi 2016-10-31T22:51:37Z pankracy_: can you recommned something for doctests for CL? 2016-10-31T22:52:00Z pankracy_: does anyone have some experience in this one in CL? 2016-10-31T22:52:22Z Subfusc quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-10-31T22:52:50Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:53:33Z pankracy_: I'm especially looking for project where this is well configured so I can see exactly how someone use it in real life, not only tiny examples 2016-10-31T22:54:16Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T22:56:23Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-31T22:56:23Z eivarv quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-10-31T23:01:40Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-10-31T23:02:31Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T23:06:37Z RedEight joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:07:42Z daniel-s_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-10-31T23:09:31Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2016-10-31T23:11:34Z Jameser joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:11:53Z pillton: doctests? 2016-10-31T23:12:06Z pankracy_: yes, doctests 2016-10-31T23:12:36Z pankracy_: you write documentation, which contains tests which you can execute during unit tests execution 2016-10-31T23:12:50Z pankracy_: so you write tests, docs and code in the same time 2016-10-31T23:12:58Z pillton: Org mode has that support. 2016-10-31T23:13:17Z pillton: I tried it once and it became painful. 2016-10-31T23:13:18Z theseb joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:13:34Z pankracy_: can you show some examples? 2016-10-31T23:13:52Z pillton: Painful with respect to version control. 2016-10-31T23:14:13Z pankracy_: what do you mean with respect to VC? 2016-10-31T23:14:20Z daniel-s_ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:14:26Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T23:14:50Z pillton: pankracy_: http://orgmode.org/manual/Working-with-source-code.html#Working-with-source-code 2016-10-31T23:15:55Z pankracy_: I'm not looking for some verbose complex stuff 2016-10-31T23:15:58Z jasom: I also found this, but I don't know of anybody that uses it: https://github.com/johanlindberg/doctest 2016-10-31T23:16:26Z pankracy_: I just want to write examples of usage in my comments which also can be executed 2016-10-31T23:16:50Z pankracy_: I found that, 5 stars are not convincing 2016-10-31T23:17:15Z pillton: Well the problem you describe is complicated. 2016-10-31T23:17:19Z raydeejay: you can always write some expressions in the doctring and execute them with C-x C-e 2016-10-31T23:17:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:17:24Z jasom: 5 is a fair amount for common lisp (257 is quicklisp-projects) 2016-10-31T23:18:09Z pankracy_: raydeejay: I wan to execute them automatically with every test 2016-10-31T23:18:15Z pankracy_: with units 2016-10-31T23:19:33Z raydeejay: http://www.cliki.net/test%20framework 2016-10-31T23:19:39Z pillton: I'm not a big fan of inline doc strings. 2016-10-31T23:19:49Z pankracy_: I am 2016-10-31T23:19:49Z raydeejay only believes in one form of tests 2016-10-31T23:19:50Z daniel-s_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T23:19:58Z pankracy_: raydeejay: what kind of? 2016-10-31T23:20:22Z raydeejay: the one in which you write a test that fails first 2016-10-31T23:20:24Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:21:10Z pankracy_: why you can't write documentation for your function which fails? 2016-10-31T23:21:12Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-10-31T23:21:20Z pankracy_: and then implements a function? 2016-10-31T23:21:24Z Ioann quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-10-31T23:21:51Z pankracy_: I doesn't exclude 2016-10-31T23:22:09Z pankracy_: *it 2016-10-31T23:22:26Z raydeejay: nevermind, this is actual just part of a set of related ideas which I won't go into right now, plus I picked some habits from Smalltalk that don't seem to be too mainstream (just as Smalltalk itself) 2016-10-31T23:23:01Z paakku: are those habits mainstream among Smalltalk users? 2016-10-31T23:23:08Z raydeejay: yes 2016-10-31T23:23:12Z pankracy_: I wouldn't mind to listen to such arguments 2016-10-31T23:23:48Z raydeejay: one of the mantras is that a good amount of documentation is about 1% 2016-10-31T23:24:03Z pankracy_: 1% of what? 2016-10-31T23:24:05Z raydeejay: (in the form of comments) 2016-10-31T23:24:48Z pankracy_: I think you may be missing one part, I see you quote clean code 2016-10-31T23:24:52Z raydeejay: the assumption is that the code is expressive enough that any comments about how it works would be superfluous 2016-10-31T23:25:10Z pankracy_: I'm talking about documentation for public API 2016-10-31T23:26:07Z pankracy_: If you browse project on github, it would be nice to see usage of the project 2016-10-31T23:26:09Z pankracy_: and also 2016-10-31T23:26:28Z pankracy_: it would be nice to see if usage executes properly with continous integration 2016-10-31T23:26:53Z pankracy_: *continuous 2016-10-31T23:27:06Z pankracy_: raydeejay: wouldn't it be great? 2016-10-31T23:27:30Z pankracy_: is this something that's in the opposite to clean code? 2016-10-31T23:27:33Z raydeejay: why turn code that never gets executed (documentation) into documentation that gets executed, when you already have both code and tests? 2016-10-31T23:28:09Z pankracy_: to keep documentation up to date 2016-10-31T23:28:24Z pankracy_: this is the essence of doctesting 2016-10-31T23:28:27Z raydeejay: you can have a set of "usage examples" tests 2016-10-31T23:28:37Z pankracy_: of course 2016-10-31T23:28:38Z raydeejay: doctesting is a thing from Python, right? 2016-10-31T23:28:52Z pankracy_: *ofcourse 2016-10-31T23:28:53Z pankracy_: raydeejay: yes 2016-10-31T23:28:55Z pankracy_: and elixir 2016-10-31T23:29:00Z raydeejay: (that was a loaded question xD) 2016-10-31T23:29:12Z pankracy_: **of course 2016-10-31T23:29:39Z pankracy_: why loaded question? 2016-10-31T23:29:59Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T23:30:28Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:30:37Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:30:45Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-10-31T23:31:10Z jasom: documentation strings are also a thing from lisp 2016-10-31T23:31:29Z pankracy_: so how should I do this in lisp? :) 2016-10-31T23:31:32Z raydeejay: I know, but I specifically specified doctesting specifically 2016-10-31T23:31:43Z White_Flame: simple testing frameworks also tend to be from projects that don't do distributed computing, have complex configuration, etc etc. I tend to outgrow such notions very, very fast 2016-10-31T23:31:47Z jasom: I like any attempt to test documentation, as documentation is the least tested item in any codebase 2016-10-31T23:32:18Z raydeejay: documentation that can be executed is code 2016-10-31T23:32:22Z White_Flame: If a function takes a complex, live data structure as a parameter, or talks to live configured servers, it's really hard to contain that into tests 2016-10-31T23:32:25Z raydeejay: and should be expressed as code 2016-10-31T23:32:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T23:32:53Z jasom: White_Flame: this is what integration and production tests are for 2016-10-31T23:33:11Z White_Flame: right, I've really never seen value from unit tests or doctest-like things 2016-10-31T23:33:29Z White_Flame: but I guess regression tests to ensure your docs are still up to date do make sense 2016-10-31T23:33:32Z jasom: White_Flame: there is some non-zero value for ensuring that the examples in your docstrings are aligned with the code though. 2016-10-31T23:33:51Z jasom: or any documentation for that matter. 2016-10-31T23:33:53Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T23:33:56Z pankracy_: White_Flame: we are talking about something else, doctests are like testing api 2016-10-31T23:34:07Z White_Flame: but that only applies to things that can be executed from scratch with a small <10-liner 2016-10-31T23:34:15Z pankracy_: it's not testing performance or preparing complex configuration 2016-10-31T23:34:35Z pankracy_: White_Flame: doctests should be executed in one line 2016-10-31T23:34:42Z jasom: pankracy_: in any event most people I know who use common lisp and want to execute code that is in their documentation do in fact use org mode. 2016-10-31T23:34:50Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2016-10-31T23:34:57Z White_Flame: okay, so I have a compiler. How do I doctest something which transforms nodes, without a massive example setup structure? 2016-10-31T23:35:06Z pankracy_: or with some kind of environment of execution in something like env preparation (few lines) + one line of execution 2016-10-31T23:35:51Z pankracy_: White_Flame: ok, so in elixir you can set environment for many similar cases 2016-10-31T23:36:10Z pankracy_: where you prepare environment for each test 2016-10-31T23:36:12Z White_Flame: I'm not talking environment, I'm talking setting up a parsed structure of AST nodes, full of data 2016-10-31T23:36:13Z pankracy_: and then 2016-10-31T23:36:26Z White_Flame: as direct parameters for the function being tested 2016-10-31T23:36:31Z pankracy_: in doctests you perform only one line for each doctest usage example 2016-10-31T23:36:35Z raydeejay: what is the perceived advantage of this over something like, say, fiveam? 2016-10-31T23:36:59Z pankracy_: White_Flame: you can still provide data as some kind of csv file 2016-10-31T23:37:06Z White_Flame: that's nuts 2016-10-31T23:37:15Z White_Flame: full-run testing makes a lot more sense for most "real" software 2016-10-31T23:37:19Z pankracy_: raydeejay: fiveam is not documentation 2016-10-31T23:37:23Z White_Flame: than trying to slice it down to a function level testing scenario 2016-10-31T23:37:37Z pankracy_: raydeejay: how can you generate documentation from fiveam? 2016-10-31T23:39:10Z pankracy_: White_Flame: there is very big difference between unit tests and integration tests 2016-10-31T23:39:25Z White_Flame: I'm saying, how can you even write unit tests? 2016-10-31T23:39:29Z White_Flame: why are they a "thing"? 2016-10-31T23:39:55Z pankracy_: are you relating to lisp or generally? 2016-10-31T23:39:59Z White_Flame: functions usually don't live on their own, unless you have a very simple program. There's tons of support for dealing with the data 2016-10-31T23:40:00Z White_Flame: both 2016-10-31T23:40:06Z QwertyDragon joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:40:46Z pankracy_: have you read "clean code"? 2016-10-31T23:40:53Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T23:40:53Z White_Flame: nope 2016-10-31T23:41:02Z pankracy_: why? 2016-10-31T23:41:08Z White_Flame: but via google, it seems tied to the whole "agile" nonsense 2016-10-31T23:41:31Z pankracy_: so how many clients your biggest project had? 2016-10-31T23:41:34Z raydeejay: you should distinguish between things that make sense and nonsense :) 2016-10-31T23:41:37Z White_Flame: which is EXPLICITLY supposed to be for small, non-research, well-known, cookie cutter problem domains 2016-10-31T23:41:59Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:42:13Z raydeejay: tests only make sense to me when you consider that you first write the test, then write the code to make it pass, then repeat... 2016-10-31T23:42:16Z White_Flame: pankracy_: our largest project had 1 major client, fully bespoke 2016-10-31T23:42:58Z paakku left #lisp 2016-10-31T23:43:02Z raydeejay would like a citation for that explicit supposition about agile nonsense 2016-10-31T23:43:16Z White_Flame: raydeejay: okay, so you have a document editor. For each test, you need to generate a full document, store it somewhere, have the proper results at hand, and ensure that each function has good coverage of such tests. Meaning juggling thousands if not millions of hand-crafted documents. That's nuts 2016-10-31T23:43:21Z pankracy_: raydeejay: from me? 2016-10-31T23:43:41Z raydeejay: pankracy_: no, supposition mentioned by White_Flame 2016-10-31T23:43:43Z pankracy_: White_Flame: this is where you don't understand unit tests 2016-10-31T23:43:52Z White_Flame: I fully concur that I don't understand unit tests 2016-10-31T23:43:58Z pankracy_: http://blog.arkency.com/2014/09/unit-tests-vs-class-tests/ 2016-10-31T23:43:58Z raydeejay: yeah, unit test don't work at that level 2016-10-31T23:44:15Z pankracy_: White_Flame: what you're talking about are class tests which are nonsense 2016-10-31T23:44:26Z White_Flame: I'm not. I'm talking about function-level tests 2016-10-31T23:44:32Z pankracy_: unit tests tries to tests public api of library 2016-10-31T23:44:37Z raydeejay: the test exist so the code can emerge ex nihilo 2016-10-31T23:44:39Z manuel__ is now known as manuel_ 2016-10-31T23:44:39Z White_Flame: as brought up via doctests 2016-10-31T23:44:48Z pankracy_: function-level tests are nonsense, you're right 2016-10-31T23:45:16Z pankracy_: doctests are not necesarelly function-level tests 2016-10-31T23:45:22Z pankracy_: White_Flame: are you familiar with java? 2016-10-31T23:45:31Z White_Flame: yes, spent too many years doing that ;) 2016-10-31T23:45:33Z pankracy_: sorry for asking at #lisp channel 2016-10-31T23:45:53Z pankracy_: so, in Java you shouldn't write tests for private methods 2016-10-31T23:46:02Z pankracy_: so in every language 2016-10-31T23:46:26Z pankracy_: your library provides some kind of service 2016-10-31T23:46:32Z raydeejay: https://8thlight.com/blog/uncle-bob/2013/05/27/TheTransformationPriorityPremise.html https://8thlight.com/blog/uncle-bob/2013/05/27/TransformationPriorityAndSorting.html this is pretty much the only thing that makes sense about tests to me now 2016-10-31T23:46:35Z pankracy_: and this service should be specified 2016-10-31T23:47:59Z White_Flame: and? 2016-10-31T23:48:19Z White_Flame: so in the compiler or editor case, that which is passed into & out of libraries are massive state and contextual 2016-10-31T23:48:23Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-10-31T23:48:31Z pankracy_: and if you have specified service which you show to your client 2016-10-31T23:48:36Z pankracy_: then this api doesn't change 2016-10-31T23:48:38Z White_Flame: assuming libraries bespoke to the project at hand, for modularity and abstraction 2016-10-31T23:48:45Z pankracy_: you write your code based on public api 2016-10-31T23:48:52Z pankracy_: so you can write documentation 2016-10-31T23:49:04Z pankracy_: and also you include tests in that documentation 2016-10-31T23:49:09Z pankracy_: as api doesn't change 2016-10-31T23:49:27Z White_Flame: well, if you're writing libraries for customers, I guess that's a different work environment than I'm used to 2016-10-31T23:49:31Z pankracy_: and behind this api you can have as shitty code as you want 2016-10-31T23:49:36Z pankracy_: because nobody see it 2016-10-31T23:49:47Z White_Flame: and are your tests supposed to have 100% coverage? 2016-10-31T23:50:10Z pankracy_: 100% code coverage is nonsense :) 2016-10-31T23:50:23Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-10-31T23:50:35Z pankracy_: 100% test coverage doesn't say anything 2016-10-31T23:50:41Z White_Flame: see, looking at the wiki page for unit testing, that falls much more in line with my understanding than your description 2016-10-31T23:50:49Z pankracy_: you can have 100% test coverage and still buggy code 2016-10-31T23:50:49Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-10-31T23:50:59Z White_Flame: where you test the atomic callables of your project to ensure no small bugs lurk 2016-10-31T23:51:06Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:51:44Z White_Flame: if your deliverable is a library, then you're testing the entire system, not at a "unit" level 2016-10-31T23:52:07Z sdothum joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:52:12Z pankracy_: why? 2016-10-31T23:52:24Z pankracy_: you can mock dependencies 2016-10-31T23:52:58Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2016-10-31T23:53:45Z pankracy_: moreover, to test atomic components properly you shouldn't rely on types in your specific language 2016-10-31T23:53:53Z pankracy_: you should rely on abstractions 2016-10-31T23:54:12Z pankracy_: for instance, fun(string sth) -- this is very bad 2016-10-31T23:54:44Z pankracy_: fun(personObject person) --- this is better 2016-10-31T23:56:31Z biocage quit (Quit: weeee) 2016-10-31T23:56:34Z john-mcaleely quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me) 2016-10-31T23:57:07Z john-mcaleely joined #lisp 2016-10-31T23:57:21Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-10-31T23:58:08Z jasom: raydeejay: I think I might have once read something uncle bob wrote that I agree with, but I'm struggling to come up with it.