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2016-09-13T15:10:20Z names: yeticry easye Zhivago whiteline seg icerove stux|RC-only wooden_ knobo ym pipping marsjaninzmarsa mathrick ``Erik dan64 White_Flame toogley1 cpt_nemo deank unrahul ristur drmeister l1x GyorsCsiga kilimanjaro k4rtik MarkusBarthlen Oladon aindilis` norfumpit guiloooo Mon_Ouie vibs29 zaquest leo_song CEnnis91 angular_mike rann AntiSpamMeta trn misv nhandler ozzloy danieli Tordek mtd _death cyberlard cebreidian brandonz hydPaz aeth tiago pok joga wizzo Kruppe
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2016-09-13T15:10:20Z names: eschulte larsen sukaeto tobel zkat___ Neet p_l jsnell msb steelbird arpunk NhanH sz0 MorTal1ty cantstanya peccu loke` DefinitelyNotAFK schoppenhauer vhost- Nikotiini saturniid josteink jdz giraffe failproofshark clog vaporatorius Sigyn eMBee troydm cross_ johs cibs Mandus tax akkad kolko forgot rick-monster` gigetoo Xof tfb lemoinem les abbe jokleinn Tristam anunnaki dilated_dinosaur zeroish ck_ mood oGMo gypsydave5 thijso tokik sausages theBlackDragon
2016-09-13T15:10:20Z names: pareidolia mikaelj quasisane j0ni emma ghostlight Urfin mnoonan Orion3k ecraven fiddlerwoaroof kjak_ d4gg4d Justinus rvirding gz__ billstclair splittist john-mcaleely mmos aaronjensen ineiros_ tessier el-mikl sigjuice jtz cods flip214 heddwch makufiru asedeno Posterdati kushal jtmcf nightfly derrida zbigniew sshirokov Oddity xristos arrdem sake Patzy jself dlowe jackc djh SiCC itscaleb djinni`_ yrdz CrazyEddy housel vlnx xantoz octophore hjudt justinabrahms
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2016-09-13T15:10:20Z names: eagleflo drot finnrobi cell Lord_Nightmare nocd ec\ tkd neuri8- BananaMagician adlai Fade someone aap renard_ tomaw samebchase zerac gabot newcup askatasuna yeltzooo9 tokenrov1 antoszka H4ns otwieracz GGMethos jurov gensym AeroNotix j_king EDT ferada DrCode kbtr lxpz jasom ejt ft cmpitg SlashLife Xach heurist mearnsh joast jackdaniel lpaste ircbrowse dxtr specbot
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2016-09-13T15:12:02Z HerrBlume: Is it possible to use return-from with multiple values?
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2016-09-13T15:13:05Z pipping: yes
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2016-09-13T15:13:36Z HerrBlume: ah
2016-09-13T15:13:51Z dmitigr: (block hahaha (return-from hahaha (values 1 2 3)))
2016-09-13T15:13:55Z HerrBlume: something like (return-from block (values table to))
2016-09-13T15:14:08Z HerrBlume: cool, thank you
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2016-09-13T15:15:32Z HerrBlume: (values :-)
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2016-09-13T15:24:31Z pipping: => :-
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2016-09-13T15:36:01Z jasom: :+:}(this is valid with the default read table)
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2016-09-13T15:37:06Z beach: I don't think so.
2016-09-13T15:37:07Z jasom: oops; #+:}(this is valid with the default read table)
2016-09-13T15:37:14Z beach: Ah, yes.
2016-09-13T15:37:19Z HerrBlume: :}(+):{
2016-09-13T15:38:29Z jasom is trying to remember who it is that uses #+:|Reason for commenting out|FORM for commenting out forms
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2016-09-13T15:38:37Z HerrBlume: abcl thinks :+:} is a valid keyword
2016-09-13T15:39:29Z jasom: HerrBlume: multiple colons is undefined, not absolutely invalid
2016-09-13T15:40:01Z jasom: The consequences are unspecified if any other pattern of package markers in a token is used. All other uses of package markers within names of symbols are not defined by this standard but are reserved for implementation-dependent use.
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2016-09-13T15:40:51Z HerrBlume: jason: ok
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2016-09-13T16:36:51Z raydeejay: what's the "obvious" mistake with this https://gist.github.com/8d892b3cfc45fe41d35e24b737691c1c ?
2016-09-13T16:37:11Z raydeejay: posts is a list of alists
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2016-09-13T16:43:39Z Bike: i don't see one. you don't need the progn and you should use setf cdr rather than rplacd, but that won't change the semantics. what is it doing wrong?
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2016-09-13T16:44:54Z Bike: i mean, assuming all the alists have :next, :prev, and :slug keys already.
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2016-09-13T16:49:25Z jasom: you need a more complicated replacement function if you want to handle cases where the keys are not already present
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2016-09-13T16:52:43Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+6ZIH Here's a setf expander for settting the Cdr of an ASsoc, that handles cases where the key might not already be present (disclaimer, I wrote this when I was still a CL novice, so there are probably some stupidities and/or bugs)
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2016-09-13T17:10:19Z Grue``: I think you can just push (key value) into assoc to update its value
2016-09-13T17:10:32Z Grue``: because assoc searches from the beginning
2016-09-13T17:10:57Z jasom: Grue``: that leaks memory though.
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2016-09-13T17:18:26Z raydeejay: Bike: I have two posts, both get their :prev and :next set
2016-09-13T17:19:35Z raydeejay: also I don't need the progn? I thought that :doing took a single form
2016-09-13T17:20:07Z jasom: raydeejay: it subsumes all compound forms after it
2016-09-13T17:20:26Z jasom: unconditional::= {do | doing} compound-form+ | return {form | it}
2016-09-13T17:21:00Z raydeejay: there, no more progn
2016-09-13T17:21:18Z raydeejay: meh, now the indentation is terrible
2016-09-13T17:21:23Z raydeejay: back with the progn
2016-09-13T17:22:16Z jasom: yeah, emacs could definitely use better loop autoindentation
2016-09-13T17:22:24Z Grue``: jasom: you can run (remove-duplicates alist :key 'car :from-end t) after you're done adding stuff
2016-09-13T17:23:09Z raydeejay: is it relevant that I construct the alists with a backquote?
2016-09-13T17:24:38Z jasom: raydeejay: yup
2016-09-13T17:25:04Z raydeejay finds something very hard to headbang against
2016-09-13T17:25:40Z jasom: raydeejay: but it depends how you construct them
2016-09-13T17:25:55Z Grue``: backquote doesn't necessarily create a literal list
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2016-09-13T17:26:11Z raydeejay: `((:title . ,title) (:author . ,author) ...)
2016-09-13T17:26:11Z raydeejay:  
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2016-09-13T17:27:47Z raydeejay: the whole procedure https://gist.github.com/b4a823e3206baf789c458e2a7222868d
2016-09-13T17:28:05Z raydeejay: (yes, it hurts my eyes too)
2016-09-13T17:28:30Z jasom: that is equivalent to (append (list (append '(:title) title)) (list (append '(:author) author)))) so it should be okay I think
2016-09-13T17:28:48Z jasom: oh nevermind
2016-09-13T17:29:07Z jasom: "The constructed copy of the template might or might not share list structure with the template itself." so you can't portably rely on it not being a literal
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2016-09-13T17:29:37Z jasom: only side-effects of the form and equality under EQUAL must be the same
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2016-09-13T17:30:02Z jasom: not whether or not some of the structure must be considered literal.
2016-09-13T17:31:06Z jasom: though I am struggling to think of how elements of the form `(:foo . ,bar) could ever share structure with each other.
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2016-09-13T17:31:30Z raydeejay: well, at least I am not the only one puzzled by this :D
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2016-09-13T17:31:50Z jasom: raydeejay: in general, if quotes are involved, don't do destructive things to it.
2016-09-13T17:32:01Z raydeejay: I am open to alternatives
2016-09-13T17:32:06Z jasom: raydeejay: that's overly conservative, but not a bad rule of thumb
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2016-09-13T17:32:28Z jasom: (list (cons :title title) (cons :author author) ...)
2016-09-13T17:32:39Z raydeejay: right! ... xD
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2016-09-13T17:33:34Z jasom: or (alexandria:plist-alist `(:title ,title :autor ,author ...))
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2016-09-13T17:34:59Z raydeejay: yay, thanks!
2016-09-13T17:35:18Z jasom: raydeejay: does it work?
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2016-09-13T17:35:36Z raydeejay: replacing the backquote with (list (cons ..)) yes, like a charm
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2016-09-13T17:36:14Z jasom: I'd be interested to see how it's different.  is your entire list of the form `(:foo . ,bar)?
2016-09-13T17:36:20Z jasom: and which implementation?
2016-09-13T17:36:40Z jasom: (this is just for my own curiousity; it's clear that the standard does not guarantee that the backquoted version will work)
2016-09-13T17:36:49Z raydeejay: here's the code that create(d) each alist https://gist.github.com/b4a823e3206baf789c458e2a7222868d
2016-09-13T17:37:00Z raydeejay: SBCL 1.3.9 linux x64
2016-09-13T17:37:06Z jasom: ohhh
2016-09-13T17:37:12Z jasom: (:next . T) <-- literal
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2016-09-13T17:38:14Z jasom: (append (list (append '(:title) title)) ... (list '(:next . t)) ...) clearly the CONS (:next . t) is going to be included literally
2016-09-13T17:38:57Z jasom: raydeejay: basically, on most implementations that one cons cell is reused for every list you construct there, and is the same as the cons cell that is used as part of the code.  It's not required that an implementation do it this way, but it's common, and allowed.
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2016-09-13T17:39:16Z raydeejay: penny drops
2016-09-13T17:39:37Z jasom: clhs 3.7.1
2016-09-13T17:39:37Z specbot: Modification of Literal Objects: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ga.htm
2016-09-13T17:39:43Z raydeejay: yeah yeah I get it
2016-09-13T17:39:55Z raydeejay: DO NOT MODIFY LITERALS YOU FOOL :D
2016-09-13T17:39:58Z jasom: haha :)
2016-09-13T17:40:11Z raydeejay: is there a reasonable way to do this with the backquote?
2016-09-13T17:40:34Z jasom: well `((:foo ,bar) (:baz ,biff)) is technically still disallowed, *but* will probably not be an issue if the lisp compiler can't determine that bar and biff are constants
2016-09-13T17:40:53Z jasom: just because there is no way to share the structure of anything that I can think of.
2016-09-13T17:42:02Z jasom: My thought is that the alexandria:plist-alist is the most concise, clean way of getting a fresh alist out of this
2016-09-13T17:42:39Z jasom: I think 90% of my packages end up using alexandria anyway, so I just put it in my :use list from the start these days.
2016-09-13T17:43:23Z jasom: plist-hash-table is how I manage the lack of hash literals, btw.
2016-09-13T17:43:26Z raydeejay: yeah, it's already loaded, so I might as well use it
2016-09-13T17:43:52Z raydeejay: another piece of software to figure out \o/
2016-09-13T17:45:16Z jasom: raydeejay: have you considered using COLLECT to generate the alist?
2016-09-13T17:45:59Z raydeejay: I had't considered making that function Right yet :)
2016-09-13T17:46:18Z jasom: fair enough.  Also, the default values would be much harder to get right.  I didn't notice those on the first glance
2016-09-13T17:46:20Z raydeejay: but yes, makes sense
2016-09-13T17:46:33Z jasom: your current way is probably better given that requirement
2016-09-13T17:46:53Z raydeejay: perhaps... or maybe the default values shouldn't be there anyway
2016-09-13T17:47:30Z raydeejay: I'd rather have it yell at me that publish something tagged "posts"
2016-09-13T17:47:38Z raydeejay: than*
2016-09-13T17:47:43Z jasom: infrrf
2016-09-13T17:47:45Z jasom: indeed
2016-09-13T17:47:58Z jasom: also a struct or a class might be better at this point
2016-09-13T17:48:23Z raydeejay: yes, I considered that too, but this list gets passed to mustache
2016-09-13T17:48:31Z jasom: ah
2016-09-13T17:48:34Z jasom: carry on then
2016-09-13T17:48:37Z raydeejay: maybe when I have additional needs :)
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2016-09-13T18:01:57Z jasom: beach: is climacs usable in the terminal currently?  I see you're doing work on it again.
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2016-09-13T18:02:38Z jasom: oh, you're working on "Second Climacs" my mistake.  That's McClim only (which means X11 only for now IIRC).
2016-09-13T18:03:20Z jasom: and I have that backwards too; climacs is mcclim only.  My brain is not working right today.
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2016-09-13T18:14:44Z des_consolado: when I compile and load stuff in slime it makes these fasl files - I gather this is the compiled lisp code, kind of annoying in my directory though, is it not normal to change the behaviour to not do this?
2016-09-13T18:14:57Z des_consolado: I've been googling and can't find anything for people changing this behaviour
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2016-09-13T18:16:15Z Xach: I just kind of ignore it.
2016-09-13T18:16:30Z jasom: des_consolado: I just add *.fasl *.fas &c. to my .gitignore
2016-09-13T18:16:49Z des_consolado: That extra couple of keypresses to tab-complete to emacs the source files though... it's killing me... Lol
2016-09-13T18:17:03Z jasom thought .lisp was sorted first
2016-09-13T18:17:50Z Xach: des_consolado: I don't find myself C-c C-k-ing all that often, I guess. I'm more often loading the entire system, or compiling individual forms.
2016-09-13T18:18:02Z Xach: You could cheat and use C-c C-l!
2016-09-13T18:18:13Z jasom: I use C-c C-k more than any other compile or load function
2016-09-13T18:18:32Z jasom: :fasl-directory lets you change where it is btw
2016-09-13T18:18:37Z jasom: in slime-compile-file-options
2016-09-13T18:18:41Z des_consolado: oh you guys all just stay in emacs all of the time huh... yeah I guess that's my problem
2016-09-13T18:18:46Z Xach: jasom: more than C-c C-c on an individual form?
2016-09-13T18:18:57Z des_consolado: I need to stop C-x C-c'ing
2016-09-13T18:19:01Z jasom: Xach: yup; I don't want the mental overhead of remembering if I can C-c C-c safely
2016-09-13T18:19:16Z Xach: When is it unsafe? I almost exclusively use C-c C-c.
2016-09-13T18:19:32Z jasom: Xach: any time the implementation has decided to inline another defun in the same file
2016-09-13T18:19:43Z Xach: jasom: What does that mean?
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2016-09-13T18:20:07Z jasom: (defun foo () ...) (defun bar () (foo) ...); C-c C-c on foo might not change the behavior of bar
2016-09-13T18:20:13Z ggole: The old version will still exist in inlined form
2016-09-13T18:20:28Z Xach: Oh. I've never had that happen, that I know of. Feeling lucky!
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2016-09-13T18:20:40Z jasom: I think sbcl never voluntarily inlines, but I might be mistaken
2016-09-13T18:20:48Z Xach: I don't like the delay and noise of C-c C-k
2016-09-13T18:20:48Z jasom: sbcl's inliner is quite dumb actually
2016-09-13T18:21:14Z ggole: A really good implementation would inline and still support C-c C-c
2016-09-13T18:21:23Z jasom: basically a switch for "MUST ALWAYS INLINE" or no inlining at all
2016-09-13T18:21:29Z ggole: But you need some clever tricks for that.
2016-09-13T18:21:46Z jasom: ggole: requires first class global environments.  If only a french professor was working on such a thing ;)
2016-09-13T18:22:30Z ggole: I don't think it requires that. Various JITs manage.
2016-09-13T18:22:58Z ggole: Various approaches can be made, I think.
2016-09-13T18:23:06Z raydeejay: what is C-x C-x supposed to do? :D
2016-09-13T18:23:18Z jasom: raydeejay: C-h C-x C-x should tell you :)
2016-09-13T18:23:24Z raydeejay: that's C-x C-c...
2016-09-13T18:23:41Z raydeejay: yay for failed humour
2016-09-13T18:23:50Z jasom: oh :)
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2016-09-13T18:24:09Z ggole: You were trying to get people to involuntarily close their emacs, but only managed to get them to involuntarily swap point and mark?
2016-09-13T18:24:14Z jasom: C-x C-c is the vim shortcut for "someone set my $EDITOR to emacs as a joke"
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2016-09-13T18:24:46Z raydeejay: nope, I'm pretending to be unaware of the fact that you can quit emacs
2016-09-13T18:24:47Z jasom: ggole: I think it was a response to des_consolado saying he needs to use C-x C-c less
2016-09-13T18:25:02Z ggole: Oh, I see
2016-09-13T18:25:08Z raydeejay: but, to be honest, whenever I press C-x C-c is totally by accident
2016-09-13T18:25:15Z raydeejay: fortunatley I run it in daemon mode :)
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2016-09-13T18:25:36Z ggole: I've fat-fingered it a few times while trying to C-c C-c or similar
2016-09-13T18:25:52Z raydeejay: I should just unbind it
2016-09-13T18:27:01Z ggole: I rebound C-z to message "mashed C-z by accident again" after doing that one too many times
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2016-09-13T18:27:17Z raydeejay: yeah, that's "the other one"
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2016-09-13T18:35:05Z jasom: I use evil so it rebinds C-z for me
2016-09-13T18:35:22Z raydeejay claims that evil is evil
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2016-09-13T18:38:48Z pipping: also, the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club.
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2016-09-13T18:42:47Z raydeejay: are you saying that it's obvious? xD
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2016-09-13T19:15:22Z superancetre: hi, excuse me if this is a bit off-topic, do you know  around which hours #lispgame is actif? seems like nobody is there for now
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2016-09-13T19:25:36Z jasom: If anybody has a windows machine handy, can they smoke-test https://github.com/jasom/lispstick-automate/releases/download/0.1/lispstick-sbcl-1.3.9-emacs-24.5.zip ?
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2016-09-13T19:27:20Z pipping: I don't quite understand versioning in Allegro CL. So I'm on their free express edition, 10.0; and I've installed all kinds of updates. (lisp-implementation-version) still gives me 10.0. The second value also mentions lisp_build 290. But I can't make sense of that. lisp_build_290 is mentioned at http://franz.com/support/patches/log/current/index.lhtml for windows patches yet I'm on linux
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2016-09-13T19:29:19Z raydeejay: maybe proper versioning is not included in the express edition
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2016-09-13T19:39:10Z jasom: if anyone already tried the my previous link, they should redownload; I found a braindead error that ought to have been caught by my script.  I also added a 7zip file as it is considerably smaller: https://github.com/jasom/lispstick-automate/releases/download/0.1/lispstick-sbcl-1.3.9-emacs-24.5.7z
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2016-09-13T21:12:09Z akkad: lipstick? tldr?
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2016-09-13T21:21:06Z jasom: akkad: emacs + slime + quicklisp in a single portably installable zipfile
2016-09-13T21:21:12Z jasom: for windows
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2016-09-13T21:23:11Z jasom: It wasn't my idea, but the original author didn't seem to be updating it, so I created some scripts to generate new ones.
2016-09-13T21:23:35Z jasom: 3 wgets plus a single command = new version
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2016-09-13T22:45:46Z raydeejay: is there something like flymake for common lisp?
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2016-09-13T22:46:39Z pillton: I use paredit.
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2016-09-13T22:46:58Z pillton: What issues are you having?
2016-09-13T22:48:15Z raydeejay: well, it's not really an issue-issue, more like would be nice to keep the annotations for undefined things when C-c C-c'ing
2016-09-13T22:48:42Z raydeejay: and other annotations
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2016-09-13T22:50:17Z pillton: M-x slime-list-compiler-notes
2016-09-13T22:51:31Z pillton: There is also C-x `
2016-09-13T22:52:56Z raydeejay: hm, it will do the trick for now
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2016-09-13T22:58:09Z pillton: You have to remember that the character syntax in CL is not fixed. It can change as you are loading/compiling a file.
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2016-09-13T23:05:41Z vauban: Is it possible to set a hashmap as a global variable? I'm getting a SYMBOL-PACKAGE-LOCKED-ERROR in SBCL.
2016-09-13T23:08:07Z pillton: Yes. (defparameter *x* (make-hash-table)).
2016-09-13T23:08:37Z pillton: The symbol-package-locked-error suggests you are using a name in a locked package.
2016-09-13T23:09:15Z vauban: Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.
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2016-09-13T23:16:45Z pierpa`: xach.com does not resolve. Is this a known problem?
2016-09-13T23:17:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: pierpa`: it does for me
2016-09-13T23:17:25Z pierpa`: hmmm... let me retry
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2016-09-13T23:18:47Z pierpa`: ah, yes. It's data.xack.com which does not reoslve
2016-09-13T23:19:02Z pierpa`: *xach
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2016-09-13T23:20:39Z pillton: Yes. It resolves to a grayscale photo of a room which (I presume) Xach uses to share parentheses with the next generation.
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2016-09-14T01:20:29Z drmeister: Something about structs that I never figured out.
2016-09-14T01:20:45Z drmeister: How do I initialize slots of a struct using passed values.
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2016-09-14T01:21:16Z drmeister: I have this:   (defstruct progress-bar total divisions message spacing (next 0))
2016-09-14T01:21:25Z cromachina: (make-my-struct :slot-name value)
2016-09-14T01:21:39Z drmeister: I want to go (make-progress-bar 100 10)
2016-09-14T01:22:00Z pillton: (defstruct progress-bar (:constructor make-progress-bar (total divisions)))
2016-09-14T01:22:41Z drmeister: Oh - and then I (defun make-progress-bar (total divisions)...) elsewhere?
2016-09-14T01:22:53Z pillton: No. defstruct will create it for you.
2016-09-14T01:23:26Z drmeister: Ah, ok that's the thing.   Say I want (make-progress-bar 200 4)
2016-09-14T01:23:35Z drmeister: I want to set spacing to 50
2016-09-14T01:23:42Z drmeister: automagically
2016-09-14T01:24:00Z cromachina: make a function to do it
2016-09-14T01:24:20Z pillton: I'm not sure if defstruct supports optional lambda lists.
2016-09-14T01:24:41Z pillton: Sorry.. lambda lists with optional arguments.
2016-09-14T01:24:49Z cromachina: or just overwrite make-progress-bar if the name really matters
2016-09-14T01:25:35Z pillton: (defstruct progress-bar (:constructor %make-progress-bar)) (defun make-p-b (a b) (%make-p-b :spacing (* a b)))
2016-09-14T01:25:37Z drmeister: That's the idiomatic way to do this?    (defun make-progress-bar-and-setup (total divisions) (let ((x (make-progress-bar total divisions))) (setf (progress-bar-spacing x) (/ total divisions))))
2016-09-14T01:26:30Z drmeister: What about this?
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2016-09-14T01:27:12Z drmeister: (defstruct progress-bar ... (:constructor make-progress-bar (total divisons &aux (spacing (/ total divisions)))) ... )
2016-09-14T01:27:39Z drmeister: I'll try that
2016-09-14T01:28:01Z pillton: clhs 3.4.6
2016-09-14T01:28:01Z specbot: Boa Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_df.htm
2016-09-14T01:29:40Z drmeister: Heck yeah!
2016-09-14T01:29:47Z pillton: drmeister: I do this. http://paste.lisp.org/display/325986
2016-09-14T01:30:13Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/uqyEC5oi/
2016-09-14T01:30:23Z pillton: drmeister: Because it keeps the line width down, and it allows you to check the arguments. In this instance you need to make sure you don't divide by zero.
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2016-09-14T01:34:19Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/bExjU6lS/
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2016-09-14T01:35:13Z pillton: Sure. You may get a funny stack trace with the error though.
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2016-09-14T02:07:58Z myrkraverk: pipping: when that happens (that I want another lisp) I can port the SBCL specific parts.
2016-09-14T02:08:18Z myrkraverk: Right now, it'll be a waste of my time to pre-port my code.
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2016-09-14T03:11:56Z akkad: was it uiop that had a portable resolver?
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2016-09-14T03:21:41Z JuanDaugherty: name resolver?
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2016-09-14T03:45:25Z joshe: akkad: I thought ioloop had one
2016-09-14T03:45:41Z joshe: derp, iolib
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2016-09-14T04:01:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-09-14T04:01:36Z beach: jasom: Second Climacs is not working at all at the moment.  I am working on the incremental parser for Common Lisp.
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2016-09-14T04:46:11Z pillton: Bike: Have you implemented the lambda calculus in TAPL which allows you to create abstractions and perform applications on the type annotations?
2016-09-14T04:46:37Z Bike: no.
2016-09-14T04:46:45Z pillton: Bike: You slacker.
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2016-09-14T04:47:09Z Bike: i'm killing myself learning cmos, i can slack on other things
2016-09-14T04:47:19Z pillton: CMOS?
2016-09-14T04:47:46Z pillton: The semiconductors?
2016-09-14T04:48:03Z Bike: yes
2016-09-14T04:48:21Z pillton: Is that part of your degree or are you slacking?
2016-09-14T04:48:34Z Bike: it is
2016-09-14T04:48:52Z pillton: Haha.. It is part of your degree?
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2016-09-14T04:49:10Z Bike: yes
2016-09-14T04:49:18Z Bike: i didn't mean that as a mathematician's answer, i would have said "yes" if i did
2016-09-14T04:49:51Z pillton: Well, mathematical humour manifests itself in many ways.
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2016-09-14T04:52:19Z Bike: mathematician's answer as in "are you x or y?" "yes"
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2016-09-14T05:05:55Z loke: Bike: Programmers answer too
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2016-09-14T09:07:15Z dmiles: what is the name of ascii code 0 ?
2016-09-14T09:08:04Z dmiles: (i want to put a zero in a  string)
2016-09-14T09:08:07Z H4ns: sbcl calls it #\nul
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2016-09-14T09:08:29Z dmiles: thank you.. that worked
2016-09-14T09:08:50Z H4ns: #.(code-char 0) would probably be a little more portable.
2016-09-14T09:09:12Z dmiles: perfect
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2016-09-14T10:25:29Z myrkraverk: Is there a simple way to close all open file descriptors in SBCL?  And if I create a loop with sb-posix:close, can that corrupt my SBCL? (yes, I'm writing a daemon)
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2016-09-14T10:45:27Z fe[nl]ix: myrkraverk: why close all descriptors ?
2016-09-14T10:45:31Z myrkraverk: Well, looping and closing from 0 to 255 "works" - but that's not the maximum.
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2016-09-14T10:45:54Z myrkraverk: fe[nl]ix: I'm puzzling about that, but it's in one example I found online.
2016-09-14T10:46:21Z myrkraverk: I know 0-2 need to be closed/directed to /dev/null.
2016-09-14T10:47:14Z Grue``: wait, you want to close all open file descriptors, not necessarily made by SBCL?
2016-09-14T10:47:46Z Grue``: I'd imagine that might corrupt many of your files in general, much less SBCL
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2016-09-14T10:48:20Z myrkraverk: Well, I want to close all open FDs in the current process (SBCL)
2016-09-14T10:48:50Z fe[nl]ix: myrkraverk: use sb-daemon and don't worry
2016-09-14T10:49:22Z myrkraverk: fe[nl]ix: I'm creating my own daemon code because sb-daemon doesn't do one (imo) critical task: lock the pid file.
2016-09-14T10:49:43Z fe[nl]ix: then send a patch to nikodemus
2016-09-14T10:49:55Z fe[nl]ix: don't create yet another library
2016-09-14T10:50:46Z myrkraverk: Well, I'd rather create yet another library, to get stuff to work, before trying to fit sb-daemon into my current code layout.
2016-09-14T10:51:27Z myrkraverk: I'm actually basing some of my decisions on the sb-daemon code, some on my recollection on how to do this "by hand" and some on guides I find online.
2016-09-14T10:52:21Z myrkraverk: What I have not done, so far, is to /close all open file descriptors/ because that's not something I've come across before.
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2016-09-14T10:58:28Z myrkraverk: fe[nl]ix: if it was easy to patch what I want into sb-daemon, I would.
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2016-09-14T10:59:11Z fe[nl]ix: myrkraverk: loop from lower bound to getrlimit(RLIMIT_NOFILE) and close()
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2016-09-14T11:01:02Z fe[nl]ix: if you're doing this before an exec() instead of close(fd) do fcntl(fd, F_SETFD, FD_CLOEXEC)
2016-09-14T11:01:24Z myrkraverk: I don't seem to have any sb-posix:getrlimit
2016-09-14T11:01:53Z myrkraverk: Of course, I can make my own. I've done that before.
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2016-09-14T11:22:58Z HerrBlume: I hav a function returning multiple values, the problem is sometimes the function failes, so i wrap it in an ignore-errors form.  But ignore errors has two return values, first the value of the form, the second the error.  how can i get the other return values of that function.
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2016-09-14T11:36:58Z _death: HerrBlume: you could use (ignore-errors (multiple-value-list ...)) but perhaps a better idea is not to use ignore-errors at all
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2016-09-14T11:39:22Z myrkraverk: Isn't it simpler to catch the specified error, maybe in a wrapper macro, and return (values nil nil) or something?
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2016-09-14T11:41:28Z HerrBlume: _death: I found this handle-case thing in PCL, currently I'm catching errors of type T.  I have no idea how to catch java exceptions with that.
2016-09-14T11:41:51Z HerrBlume: but t seems to work for all errors.
2016-09-14T11:42:31Z HerrBlume: or conditions they call them
2016-09-14T11:44:35Z ferada: HerrBlume: http://abcl.org/svn/trunk/abcl/examples/java-exception/lispfunctions.lisp
2016-09-14T11:44:44Z Grue``: catching and ignoring all exceptions is just a bad idea in general
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2016-09-14T11:51:52Z HerrBlume: ferada: thanks, thats what i was locking for
2016-09-14T11:52:17Z HerrBlume: would be cool to catch specific java exceptions
2016-09-14T11:52:56Z HerrBlume: So I will not ignore all exceptions, only the java exceptions.
2016-09-14T11:57:07Z ferada: HerrBlume: take a look at register-java-exception, that makes it a bit nicer
2016-09-14T12:02:02Z HerrBlume: ferada: that is better, but for my usecase it doesn't matter.
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2016-09-14T13:55:17Z HerrBlum`: ok, I have an component tree. And there is an select method taking a component and an item.   Now I want the select operation bubble up the component tree until a component is able to handle the method.   Currently i have a generic select method which does the bubbling.  The other way I see is to have a generic (handle-event component event) thing, and select a special case of that.   What is the standard way to do such 
2016-09-14T13:56:18Z HerrBlum`: Are there systems i could take a look at.   I'm afraid I'm making things more complicated than it needs to be.
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2016-09-14T13:58:59Z beach: HerrBlum`: For one thing, I am having a hard time understanding what you are saying, because you are using terminology with specific meaning but that doesn't make much sense in the context.  A "component" is what ASDF uses for files and stuff.  A "method" is a special implementation of a generic function, but components don't "handle" methods, because "handle" is what a handler does to a signal.
2016-09-14T14:00:04Z beach: HerrBlum`: And when you say "a generic (handle-even component event)" are you really referring to a Common Lisp generic function?
2016-09-14T14:01:04Z Grue``: it's not even clear what the problem is exactly except that it's "complicated"
2016-09-14T14:01:29Z beach: HerrBlum`: How is the "component tree" represented and what is that nature of a "component"?
2016-09-14T14:04:42Z DGASAU: myfyb: I just type on the keyboard. (Russian Cyrillic, German, sometimes Tatar Cyrillic.)
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2016-09-14T14:05:18Z HerrBlum`: Ok, sorry for the confusion.   I am talking about graphical user interface components. I did all my common-lisp gui programming until now in CPS.  Then I got the idea to use a class with link to a parent class.  I called that base class component, because of the lack of a better name.  Now these component classes need to handle user input events and I'm trying to get that right.
2016-09-14T14:05:40Z DGASAU: minion: tell myfyb: I just type on the keyboard. (Russian Cyrillic, German, sometimes Tatar Cyrillic.)
2016-09-14T14:05:41Z minion: myfyb: you speak nonsense
2016-09-14T14:06:22Z DGASAU: minion: memo for myfyb: I just type on the keyboard. (Russian Cyrillic, German, sometimes Tatar Cyrillic.)
2016-09-14T14:06:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell myfyb when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-09-14T14:06:55Z Grue``: sassy minion
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2016-09-14T14:10:12Z beach: HerrBlum`: I am notoriously bad when it comes to understanding what other people describe.  Sorry about that.  Before you said that the tree was a tree of components.  Now you are saying that it is a tree of component classes.  Which one is it?
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2016-09-14T14:10:55Z HerrBlum`: beach: A tree, dag of component classes.
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2016-09-14T14:11:36Z beach: HerrBlum`: And what is the significance of the DAG?  Subclassing?
2016-09-14T14:11:44Z HerrBlum`: beach: yes
2016-09-14T14:12:00Z beach: HerrBlum`: Then you are done.  Just use DEFCLASS to define the component classes.
2016-09-14T14:12:28Z beach: Write a method to specialize on the most general class that it can "handle".
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2016-09-14T14:13:44Z beach: HerrBlum`: So you were right: (defgeneric handle-even (component event))
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2016-09-14T17:08:07Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2016-09-14T17:09:52Z drmeister: I'm programming in Cando these days.  I'm writing code to load large (11M atoms) molecular structures.  Everything is working fine.  Cando is stable, Cleavir is generating code that's fast enough for what I need at the moment (faster is always better) and the debugging experience is good enough for now.
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2016-09-14T17:10:51Z drmeister: I'm convinced now, given the current level of performance, that Cando/Clasp is going to disrupt my little corner of the world (computational chemistry).
2016-09-14T17:11:16Z drmeister: I'm just checking in so you know that I haven't died or anything.
2016-09-14T17:13:33Z pipping: drmeister: drowned, in this case.
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2016-09-14T17:38:58Z PuercoPop: does anyone know what https://github.com/stumpwm/cl-xkeysym/ has over clx's keysym?
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2016-09-14T17:47:17Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations!
2016-09-14T17:47:46Z jasom: drmeister: sweet!
2016-09-14T17:49:39Z beach: drmeister: I won't stick around now.  Now is that part of the day for me to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.  But I'll read the logs.
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2016-09-14T18:12:53Z jasom: My latest annoyance with loop (defun bar (foo) (loop for foo = foo then ...)) doesn't work.
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2016-09-14T18:15:44Z pierpa: then choose a different name
2016-09-14T18:18:15Z raydeejay: um, would you call that "good style"?
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2016-09-14T18:26:00Z mordocai would not call that good style
2016-09-14T18:26:04Z pipping: raydeejay: I don't think it's particularly bad.
2016-09-14T18:27:04Z mordocai: pipping: I specifically discourage shadowing variables unless said variable is dynamic because shadowing objectively makes it harder to understand what is going on with the only benefit being not having to think up a good name for your inner variable.
2016-09-14T18:28:23Z pipping: mordocai: do you hate me for this? https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/epipping/asdf/blob/run-program-messy-with-rebasing/uiop/run-program.lisp#L715-718
2016-09-14T18:28:43Z jasom: I specifically use shadowing because having two different names for a variable that is logically the same thing is more confusing.
2016-09-14T18:29:35Z jasom: i.e. if I were using recursing rather than iteration, the variable would have the same name naturally.
2016-09-14T18:29:42Z raydeejay: that
2016-09-14T18:29:44Z raydeejay: "naturally"
2016-09-14T18:30:02Z raydeejay: it would always be "the first parameter"
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2016-09-14T18:41:53Z mordocai: pipping: That's pretty awful to read yeah
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2016-09-14T18:43:11Z mordocai: jasom: If you want that, then write it recursively and it makes sense. While shadowing may make it less confusing for yourself (and who cares what you do in code that's just for you?), it almost always makes it more confusing for a new developer.
2016-09-14T18:43:35Z mordocai: Of course, there are no absolutes. For your specific use case there it very well may be more readable
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2016-09-14T18:48:52Z knobo: drmeister: Congratulations! I'm rooting for you and your project :)
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2016-09-14T19:02:55Z jasom: mordocai: I guess I've never considered variable shadowing to be confusing; or at least not any more confusing than two functions using the same variable name.
2016-09-14T19:03:18Z jasom: either way you have two lexical environments where the name represents a different variable.
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2016-09-14T19:04:46Z jasom: I suppose it *can* be confusing if you have (defun foo (bar) (let ((bar ...))) bar) but I wouldn't do that.
2016-09-14T19:05:28Z mordocai: jasom: Ah, well that's roughly the same thing as your above example for me.
2016-09-14T19:06:28Z jasom: mordocai: the difference being at no point later in the function is the non-shadowed version used
2016-09-14T19:06:56Z raydeejay: but you know that only when you hit the last )
2016-09-14T19:07:21Z jasom: I suppose I could just use setf in the let case, but that's not possible for the loop case.
2016-09-14T19:07:56Z raydeejay: *I*, in this case, would call it initial-bar
2016-09-14T19:08:08Z jasom: raydeejay: which is what I ended up doing.
2016-09-14T19:08:14Z raydeejay: heh
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2016-09-14T20:09:30Z jasom: (ql:quickload "abort-ks-execution-example") fails for me with Component "abort-ks-execution-example" not found
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2016-09-14T20:11:09Z raydeejay: yep
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2016-09-14T20:49:53Z lerax: Guyes
2016-09-14T20:51:39Z lerax: Are you prefer clisp or sbcl and why?
2016-09-14T20:51:58Z lerax: Clisp is dead?
2016-09-14T20:52:29Z lerax: I think the repl is nice, but often i have problems
2016-09-14T20:52:46Z lerax: Like the (describe) function
2016-09-14T20:52:47Z knobo: I'd use sbcl unless I have any special needs that clisp would solve.
2016-09-14T20:52:58Z knobo: I don't know what that special need would be, though.
2016-09-14T20:53:11Z lerax: Thanks for info
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2016-09-14T20:53:16Z lerax: This helps
2016-09-14T20:53:31Z lerax: Are you had any problems with clisp?
2016-09-14T20:54:17Z knobo: I never used it.
2016-09-14T20:56:20Z knobo: I have used lispworks and sbcl.
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2016-09-14T20:57:08Z blockeduser: i have a question about data-driven programming, https://www.reddit.com/r/AskProgramming/comments/4zftiw/more_powerful_datadriven_programming/
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2016-09-14T20:59:40Z lerax: Oh... Okay.
2016-09-14T20:59:53Z lerax: I'm using emacs with sly and sbcl
2016-09-14T21:00:33Z lerax: The author Joao Tavora recommends sbcl instead clisp. I'm trying understand the reason
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2016-09-14T21:06:54Z jasom: blockeduser: how does the rule: (x * (y / x) = y) not handle your first example?
2016-09-14T21:08:01Z blockeduser: with the rule systems I've learnt from the PAIP book that rule would only work on an expression that has that exact structure
2016-09-14T21:08:37Z blockeduser: it wouldn't work in a larger product as in my example
2016-09-14T21:08:49Z jasom: blockeduser: applying it to subexpressions of the larger expression ought to do that, I'd be surprised if PAIP doesn't mention this
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2016-09-14T21:09:45Z blockeduser: interesting
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2016-09-14T21:10:29Z blockeduser: i have some more complicated cases though that may better illustrate the problem
2016-09-14T21:10:59Z blockeduser: also it can be complex how to break up an expression into subexpressions
2016-09-14T21:13:13Z blockeduser: for example something like (A * B * C) / (X * Y * B * Z) = (A * C) / (X * Y * Z)
2016-09-14T21:13:16Z jasom: right A * B * C/A becomes harder
2016-09-14T21:14:33Z blockeduser: i find really hard to find recent texts or articles about this technique
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2016-09-14T21:15:01Z jasom: ultimately I'm unconvinced that pattern matching is the right solution for this; simply making one large fraction and removing duplicates from the numerator and denominator is simpler.
2016-09-14T21:15:28Z jasom: blockeduser: I haven't read PAIP, but my understanding is that the AI part is somewhat dated.
2016-09-14T21:15:37Z blockeduser: yeah it's from about 1991
2016-09-14T21:15:53Z jasom: i.e. I've seen people recommend it as a decent intro to lisp, with the caveat that some of the AI stuff won't be useful.
2016-09-14T21:16:44Z blockeduser: so I guess pattern matching is not the way to do algebraic simplifications
2016-09-14T21:16:49Z blockeduser: ok thanks for your advice
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2016-09-14T21:24:15Z pierpa: lerax: clisp compiles to to bytecode, and is one of the slowest implementations. SBCL is the implementation producing the fastest code. Probably this is the reason you have been suggested to use SBCL. Clisp has advantages too in different areas, and may be preferable insome cases.
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2016-09-14T21:25:25Z lerax: Wow, pierpa
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2016-09-14T21:25:58Z lerax: This is very useful. I'll try some research to confirm that case. Thanks to reply.
2016-09-14T21:26:26Z lerax: These cases*
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2016-09-14T21:27:43Z pierpa: the cases where clisp wins is when you must run on platforms not supported by other implementations, since clisp is portable easily where a C compiler is available.
2016-09-14T21:28:20Z pierpa: and when you need high reliability.
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2016-09-14T21:30:34Z mordocai: pierpa: I've never heard clisp compared as more reliable than sbcl/ccl. Is that something generally accepted that I just haven't heard?
2016-09-14T21:30:43Z mordocai: The only clisp argument I had heard was the portability
2016-09-14T21:30:57Z pierpa: clisp has been used in space
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2016-09-14T21:32:22Z pierpa: there's the reliability os the implementation itself, and in addition the reliability caused by being unable to produce unsafe code, thus protecting itself against bad programming.
2016-09-14T21:32:28Z pierpa: *of
2016-09-14T21:33:51Z pierpa: I don't if it's generally accepted. The data comes from my experience.
2016-09-14T21:34:00Z pierpa: I don't know
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2016-09-14T21:35:37Z jasom: mordocai: once upon a time clisp was more reliable on windows than sbcl.  sbcl has gotten much better on windows, and clisp has bitrotted a bit, so I doubt that's true anymore
2016-09-14T21:36:37Z pierpa: as an example, I found SBCL unusable on windows. Just saying.
2016-09-14T21:37:18Z mood: pierpa: What kind of problems make it "unusable"?
2016-09-14T21:37:41Z pierpa: difficult to pinpoint
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2016-09-14T21:39:03Z quadresce: hello folks, I was wondering if anyone had advice on producing binaries for SBCL. I know how to make them, of course, but what I'm interested in is removing some information that ideally shouldn't be there, like saved source forms, etc.
2016-09-14T21:40:09Z quadresce: (to be clear, I'm not asking for a full "tree shaking" solution or anything)
2016-09-14T21:41:31Z Grue`: if debug is set to 0 there shouldn't be any source forms
2016-09-14T21:44:06Z _death: jasom: if you've not yet read PAIP, do it, you're in for a treat..
2016-09-14T21:46:20Z quadresce: I guess one thing I need to learn is configuring ASDF to compile everything with a particular compilation policy
2016-09-14T21:47:15Z jasom: I'm trying to figure out exactly how sbcl determines the default external-format.  Any hints?
2016-09-14T21:47:53Z jasom: I know it uses the locale, but that's as far as I've gotten.
2016-09-14T21:48:15Z _death: apropos "default-external-format", M-.
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2016-09-14T22:00:05Z jasom: can one set the external-format for a :file in asdf?
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2016-09-14T22:12:34Z trocado: is there an alternative to (flat (last x)) to get the last element of a list but not in list form?
2016-09-14T22:12:55Z _death: s/flat/car
2016-09-14T22:13:41Z trocado: s?
2016-09-14T22:13:46Z jasom: (car (last x))
2016-09-14T22:14:00Z _death: also, alexandria:last-car/last-elt
2016-09-14T22:14:14Z _death: or rather, lastcar
2016-09-14T22:15:14Z trocado: ok, thanks! which one would be better style, by the way?
2016-09-14T22:15:52Z _death: last-elt will signal an error if there is no last elt.  the documentation for lastcar also says it signals an error, but that seems to be a lie
2016-09-14T22:16:24Z _death: (ah, I misread.  sorry)
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2016-09-14T22:17:23Z jasom: trocado: what do you want the result to be for an empty list?
2016-09-14T22:18:19Z _death: trocado: if you don't care for the dependency, go with the alexandria functions.. otherwise define your own last1 (traditional name for that function)
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2016-09-14T22:19:03Z trocado: jasom: nil?
2016-09-14T22:19:36Z jasom: trocado: then I would suggest using lastcar from alexandria
2016-09-14T22:20:18Z trocado: ok, tks!
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2016-09-14T22:28:12Z Cthulhux: given that i have a list of variable lists, e.g. ((1 24 73) (2 92) (3 817 526) (4 ...)) where the first item is always unique: what is the easiest way to find the second element of the "sublist" with the "car" 3 (i.e. 817)? do i have to loop?
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2016-09-14T22:29:54Z jasom: (cadr (assoc 3 '((1 24 73) (2 92) (3 817 526) (4)))) => 817
2016-09-14T22:30:23Z jasom: Cthulhux: in the event that the first item isn't unique, it will return the first match.
2016-09-14T22:30:31Z jasom: clhs assoc
2016-09-14T22:30:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_assocc.htm
2016-09-14T22:30:41Z Cthulhux: thanks :)
2016-09-14T22:30:49Z Cthulhux: learning a new command from you every day
2016-09-14T22:30:51Z Cthulhux: almost :D
2016-09-14T22:31:15Z jasom: well there are only 978 symbols in the spec, so less than 3 years at that rate :)
2016-09-14T22:31:16Z raydeejay: for a more convoluted way: (cadr (find-if (lambda (x) (= (car x) 3)) '((1 2) (3 4))))
2016-09-14T22:31:45Z jasom: raydeejay: or FIND with a :key of #'car
2016-09-14T22:31:48Z Cthulhux: jasom, great. more time for writing software! :D
2016-09-14T22:31:57Z raydeejay: right!
2016-09-14T22:32:14Z Cthulhux: well, "easiest" is sufficient for me. ;-)
2016-09-14T22:32:18Z jasom: Cthulhux: that's actually a good point.  You can use find with the keyword argument :key for the generic way
2016-09-14T22:32:41Z jasom: assoc is basically just find where #'car is the key argument (there are some small differences)
2016-09-14T22:32:53Z jasom: clhs find
2016-09-14T22:32:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm
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2016-09-14T22:38:51Z Cthulhux: ok, find works. now i hope i'll still understand the code tomorrow. will work on it.. :-)
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2016-09-14T22:54:30Z _death: jasom: a problem with find is if you're looking for NIL..
2016-09-14T23:00:13Z jasom: _death: yup
2016-09-14T23:01:30Z jasom: Cthulhux: one last note; there is an informal datastructure in lisp called an "association list" or "alist" for short.  This is a list of the form ((key . value) (key . value) ...); use assoc if that's semantically what you are doing and use find if it's merely a coincidence that the car of the list is the key in this case.
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2016-09-14T23:02:19Z Cthulhux: in my real application, the first element is a cl-async socket. i guess it wouldn't make a good key
2016-09-14T23:03:13Z jasom: Cthulhux: why not?
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2016-09-14T23:03:52Z raydeejay: I guess that because you need a reference to it to search for it
2016-09-14T23:04:16Z raydeejay: otherwise, yeah, why not
2016-09-14T23:04:25Z Cthulhux: sockets are not exactly plaintext, so they are somewhat harder to handle than numbers. (also, i have a varying number of "values".)
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2016-09-14T23:41:36Z Cthulhux: gnight!
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2016-09-14T23:52:47Z myrkraverk: Is sb-sys:enable-interrupt actually documented anywhere?
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2016-09-15T00:02:54Z cromachina: do you mean with-interrupts and without-interrupts?
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2016-09-15T00:13:11Z myrkraverk: No, I mean exactly what I wrote.  The part that installs an interrupt handler.
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2016-09-15T00:27:56Z cromachina: cant find that symbol in my impl
2016-09-15T00:27:59Z cromachina: running 1.3.7
2016-09-15T00:33:21Z _death: sb-sys is a private package
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2016-09-15T03:22:34Z pillton: Do any implementations provide declarations for lexical constants?
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2016-09-15T03:23:45Z Bike: you could declare it as having an eql type, i guess
2016-09-15T03:24:21Z pillton: Oh I hadn't thought of that.
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2016-09-15T03:29:59Z pillton: Hmm.. That requires knowing the object at compile time.
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2016-09-15T03:31:20Z Bike: well yeah, it's a constant.
2016-09-15T03:31:42Z pillton: (let ((x (some-function))) (declare (constant x)) ....)
2016-09-15T03:32:23Z Bike: that's not a constant.
2016-09-15T03:32:33Z pillton: Inside .... it is.
2016-09-15T03:32:40Z Bike: it's what, a variable you don't setq? that's not the same.
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2016-09-15T03:33:03Z Bike: it's variable between executions of the form. the compiler can't do much with that.
2016-09-15T03:33:15Z pillton: Ok. Sorry. Does it have a name?
2016-09-15T03:33:43Z White_Flame: CONSTANT isn't a standard type declaration, is it?
2016-09-15T03:33:45Z Bike: i'm not trying to admonish you or nothin, i'm just saying it wouldn't be a very useful explanation.
2016-09-15T03:33:55Z Bike: a very useful declaration
2016-09-15T03:33:59Z Bike: White_Flame: hypothetical
2016-09-15T03:34:27Z White_Flame: I think the best it could be would be the opposite of "volatile" from other languages
2016-09-15T03:34:27Z pillton: I have macro which can do smarter stuff if it knew a binding wasn't going to be changed.
2016-09-15T03:34:59Z White_Flame: but it would be difficult to pass around the "constness", from C++ speak
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2016-09-15T03:35:18Z Bike: like how, pillton?
2016-09-15T03:38:49Z pillton: A simple example is: (loop for x across data do (loop for y across data do ...))
2016-09-15T03:41:07Z Bike: flashbacks to c restrict
2016-09-15T03:41:22Z Bike: i mean, that saves you like n memory reads. that's more of a compiler thing than a macro thing i would think.
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2016-09-15T03:49:55Z emaczen: I have written a program that will give me a stack-overflow error with CCL but works fine with SBCL. I'm assuming this is a code optimization issue that SBCL handles for you. What are some strategies to manually optimize my code for CCL?
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2016-09-15T03:51:16Z pillton: emaczen: Are you assuming tail call optimisation? Can you paste the code?
2016-09-15T03:52:37Z emaczen: pillton: Does CCL not do tail call optimization?
2016-09-15T03:52:41Z Bike: it does
2016-09-15T03:52:50Z Bike: might need different optimize values or something t hough
2016-09-15T03:53:41Z emaczen: I vaguely remember reading something where you can pass 1, 2 or 3 when compiling? How can I specify this with ASDF?
2016-09-15T03:54:12Z Bike: well usually you just put a (declare (optimize whatever)) in your code somewhere
2016-09-15T03:54:43Z emaczen: Bike: Can I do this globally?
2016-09-15T03:54:58Z Bike: yeah, with declaim, but it's a bit gauche since it lasts a while
2016-09-15T03:55:05Z pillton: Bike: Ok. Point taken.
2016-09-15T03:55:27Z emaczen: Bike: What do you mean that "it lasts a while"?
2016-09-15T03:55:52Z Bike: like, you declaim, and then code compiled thereafter is under the effects of the declaim, until there's another one.
2016-09-15T03:55:57Z Bike: i think. been a while since i thought about it.
2016-09-15T03:56:01Z pillton: I thought it wasn't defined how long it lasts.
2016-09-15T03:56:57Z pillton: emaczen: I, as a potential user of your software, would be greatly annoyed by your use of declaim.
2016-09-15T03:57:04Z loke: Bike: DECLAIM in a file lasts in that file, only. As far as I know at least.
2016-09-15T03:57:19Z pillton: "As with other defining macros, it is unspecified whether or not the compile-time side-effects of a declaim persist after the file has been compiled."
2016-09-15T03:57:22Z pillton: clhs declaim
2016-09-15T03:57:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_declai.htm
2016-09-15T03:57:28Z Bike: how excellent :|
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2016-09-15T03:57:48Z emaczen: pillton: I'm just going to see if I can get it to work first
2016-09-15T03:58:20Z pillton: emaczen: Sure. I'm just pointing at the social consequences.
2016-09-15T03:58:40Z pillton: Keep in mind that I'm irrelevant too.
2016-09-15T04:00:10Z pillton: emaczen: What algorithm are you implementing?
2016-09-15T04:00:59Z emaczen: pillton: backtracking algorithm
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2016-09-15T04:05:58Z emaczen: Is evaluating (proclaim '(optimize (speed 3))) in the REPL and then running (asdf:test-system ...) going to optimize my code?
2016-09-15T04:06:08Z pillton: emaczen: Right. Can you abandon a potential candidate before determining all values in the candidate?
2016-09-15T04:09:10Z pillton: emaczen: You would have to recompile it. (asdf:load-system "<super>" :force t)
2016-09-15T04:11:44Z emaczen: pillton: I'm using :force but it doesn't seem to recompile...
2016-09-15T04:12:49Z pillton: Do you have two systems, my-library.asd and my-library-tests.asd ?
2016-09-15T04:13:09Z emaczen: yes
2016-09-15T04:13:29Z pillton: Ok. (asdf:load-system "my-library" :force t) then (asdf:test-system "my-library").
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2016-09-15T04:15:01Z emaczen: pillton: still doesn't seem to recompile anything
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2016-09-15T04:16:27Z White_Flame: what I do is have an (optimize-file) form at the top of every file, then define that as a macro expanding to declaim early on.  Kind of lame, but should work
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2016-09-15T04:22:08Z pillton: I personally prefer this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/326061
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2016-09-15T04:25:17Z pillton: emaczen: I'm not sure why that isn't working. Sorry.
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2016-09-15T04:25:38Z emaczen: What is the fastest declare form for code optimizatio?
2016-09-15T04:26:12Z emaczen: pillton: Should I also declare types in my code?
2016-09-15T04:26:24Z Bike: it helps
2016-09-15T04:26:35Z Bike: and well, (speed 3), i guess
2016-09-15T04:26:44Z emaczen: What about the other flags?
2016-09-15T04:26:57Z White_Flame: pillton: I actually do the opposite :).   I have a (slow-body ...) form that suppresses optimization notes
2016-09-15T04:27:35Z Bike: the other flags can affect speed but not in such a way as that there's a right thing to do all the time
2016-09-15T04:28:03Z pillton: White_Flame: Ah right. If I encounter a problem I usually disable the optimisation flags and re-run the tests again.
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2016-09-15T04:33:11Z emaczen: what is the form for declaring the types of functions?
2016-09-15T04:33:46Z pillton: (declaim (ftype (function (...) (values ...)) name))
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2016-09-15T04:43:24Z White_Flame: my 2 optimization options are :fast and :safe, where the latter also declares #+sbcl (sb-c::merge-tail-calls 3), since our main loop tail recurses
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2016-09-15T05:10:26Z loke: White_Flame: Why is your main loop tail recursing?
2016-09-15T05:10:36Z loke would rewrite it using a normal loop instead.
2016-09-15T05:12:21Z emaczen: i'm declaiming generic functions in one file, can or should I declaim the methods in another file?
2016-09-15T05:12:36Z emaczen: Is the declaim only in effect on a per-file basis?
2016-09-15T05:12:58Z Bike: depends on implementation
2016-09-15T05:13:16Z Bike: what exactly do you mean "declaiming methods"
2016-09-15T05:13:49Z emaczen: Bike: the return values can be different
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2016-09-15T05:14:12Z Bike: okay but the ftype refers to the (generic) function
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2016-09-15T05:15:46Z Bike: declaring method types probably wouldnt help, practically speaking, anyway
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2016-09-15T05:16:11Z emaczen: Bike: Yeah, this isn't helping me to get the CCL compiler to work...
2016-09-15T05:16:14Z White_Flame: loke: At some point it was mutual recursion
2016-09-15T05:16:24Z White_Flame: depending on the various state transitions that were slotted in
2016-09-15T05:16:32Z loke: White_Flame: ouch. nasty :-)
2016-09-15T05:16:39Z White_Flame: nah, nice to work with actually
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2016-09-15T05:16:51Z White_Flame: just jump around and get things done
2016-09-15T05:17:00Z White_Flame: state in params
2016-09-15T05:17:07Z emaczen: I have no idea why SBCL works but CCL gives me the stack-overflow condition... The backtrace I get is frozen and I can't see any of my own methods ...
2016-09-15T05:17:10Z Bike: emaczen: it is very unlikely that type declarations will help with the stack thing
2016-09-15T05:17:46Z emaczen: Bike: How does SBCL get around this?
2016-09-15T05:18:09Z Bike: well it sounds like tail call elimination but that's just a guess. can you paste some code and the backtrace maybe?
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2016-09-15T05:23:01Z emaczen: Bike: I don't know what to paste... I wish I could see more of my backtrace
2016-09-15T05:23:15Z Bike: how about what you can see
2016-09-15T05:25:54Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+6ZLG
2016-09-15T05:26:16Z emaczen: Bike: Which compiler do you use? or most often?
2016-09-15T05:26:33Z Bike: sbcl
2016-09-15T05:26:42Z Bike: anyway, that's interesting, that doesn't look like it's even in your code
2016-09-15T05:27:11Z Bike: or well, it's from some gf...
2016-09-15T05:27:19Z emaczen: gf?
2016-09-15T05:27:22Z Bike: generic function
2016-09-15T05:27:30Z Bike: did it look like that before you put in type declarations?
2016-09-15T05:27:45Z emaczen: Yes -- I actually think it just ignored my type declarations
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2016-09-15T05:29:09Z Bike: but this is a stack error? this looks like it can't pase a type or something
2016-09-15T05:29:25Z |3b|: are you using 'integer as a type somewhere?
2016-09-15T05:29:35Z |3b|: in a non-evaluated context
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2016-09-15T05:30:48Z emaczen: |3b|: What is a non-evaluated context?
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2016-09-15T05:31:13Z |3b|: something that isn't evaluated, like a declaration, method specializer, etc
2016-09-15T05:31:29Z Bike: (ccl::specifier-type 'integer nil) doesn't signal anything for me. spooky...
2016-09-15T05:31:46Z |3b|: Bike: try ''integer
2016-09-15T05:31:54Z emaczen: |3b|: I don't think so however the :force argument to CCL doesn't seem to work
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2016-09-15T05:32:06Z emaczen: I mean for (asdf:load-system ... :force t)
2016-09-15T05:32:11Z Bike: oh, there it goes
2016-09-15T05:32:11Z |3b|: Bike: and verify it shows up as 'integer in the backtrace if it does signal
2016-09-15T05:32:19Z |3b| doesn't have CCL handy to test on
2016-09-15T05:32:21Z Bike: it signals but it's not an error, is why i missed it
2016-09-15T05:33:34Z |3b|: emaczen: maybe look at an :after method on SHARED-INITIALIZE for COLLECTIONS:IDENTIFIABLE if there is one
2016-09-15T05:33:57Z |3b|: possibly INITIALIZE-INSTANCE as well, don't remember how all those call eachother
2016-09-15T05:35:06Z Bike: the shared-initialize :after ccl:effective-slot-definition calls sp-type and signals an error on the condition
2016-09-15T05:35:24Z Bike: maybe you have (defmethod foo ((x 'integer)) ...) somewhere?
2016-09-15T05:35:27Z emaczen: |3b|: this method just checks if an identifiable object has an id, and if it doesn't than it sets an integer id
2016-09-15T05:35:36Z Bike: and what's the class of the error? this seriously does not look like a stack overflow
2016-09-15T05:35:42Z |3b|: is 'integer in it anywhere?
2016-09-15T05:35:51Z emaczen: no
2016-09-15T05:35:57Z |3b|: can you show us any code?
2016-09-15T05:36:00Z Bike: or a :type declaration in a class definition
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2016-09-15T05:36:24Z emaczen: I do have a type declaration
2016-09-15T05:36:31Z |3b|: yeah, does it have 'integer in it?
2016-09-15T05:36:34Z emaczen: Yes
2016-09-15T05:36:35Z Bike: like ":type 'integer"?
2016-09-15T05:36:43Z emaczen: exactly like that
2016-09-15T05:36:46Z Bike: ok, that's wrong, it's :type integer
2016-09-15T05:37:24Z |3b|: declarations aren't evaluated, and the list (QUOTE INTEGER) probably isn't a valid type :)
2016-09-15T05:37:36Z White_Flame: if you could wrap that up into the smallest repeatable case, that sounds like a bug you could report, if it does blow the stack when the type declaration is wrong
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2016-09-15T05:37:44Z White_Flame: but that is a common error, so I doubt it's that simple
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2016-09-15T05:38:01Z emaczen: Okay, I still get the stack-overflow condition but now I can inspect my backtrace
2016-09-15T05:38:08Z Bike: (defclass foo () ((bar :type 'integer))) works fine, and i can make an instance, fuckin fantastical
2016-09-15T05:38:11Z |3b|: (that isn't really a declaration, but it is also not evaluated)
2016-09-15T05:38:15Z emaczen: I can also see my methods being called
2016-09-15T05:38:22Z Bike: well that's something at least
2016-09-15T05:38:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-09-15T05:38:47Z |3b|: Bike: try with an accessor?
2016-09-15T05:39:16Z |3b|: (and try using it, in case its clos does deferred compilation)
2016-09-15T05:39:58Z Bike: no complaints with an accessor an initarg, maybe gotta declaim
2016-09-15T05:40:27Z Bike: hum
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2016-09-15T05:42:31Z emaczen: Can you increase the stack size?
2016-09-15T05:43:05Z Bike: -S n or --stack-size n, says the manual
2016-09-15T05:43:18Z Bike: doesn't give units or a default. tragically beautiful
2016-09-15T05:43:22Z emaczen: How do I check what the stack-size current is?
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2016-09-15T05:43:37Z Bike: oh, here we go, ccl::*default-control-stack-size*. maybe
2016-09-15T05:44:13Z emaczen: Bike: Anything similar for SBCL?
2016-09-15T05:44:28Z Bike: --control-stack-size <megabytes>
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2016-09-15T05:48:48Z emaczen: Bike: From my new backtrace, I can see that I have about 700 calls to the same method, and then at the top of the stack, I have 20 calls to other methods
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2016-09-15T05:51:25Z emaczen: Is this just giving me a more detailed stack trace at the top?
2016-09-15T05:51:47Z jasom: emaczen: It seems likely that sbcl is doing tail-call elimination and ccl isn't
2016-09-15T05:52:51Z emaczen: jasom: how can I force tail-call elimination?
2016-09-15T05:53:36Z pillton: You could write it as a loop.
2016-09-15T05:53:36Z beach: emaczen: The Common Lisp HyperSpec does not require an implementation to optimize tail calls.
2016-09-15T05:54:26Z beach: emaczen: Therefore, if you want your code to be conforming, you should not rely on tail-call optimization.
2016-09-15T05:55:21Z White_Flame: or find an impelementation-specific declaration, like sbcl has
2016-09-15T05:55:45Z Bike: it seems annoying on ccl. there's a "policy object" with a bunch of functions in it.
2016-09-15T05:55:50Z |3b|: emaczen: probably not a "more detailed" backtrace, just showing things that ran successfully in the earlier calls because there was more stack available
2016-09-15T05:56:46Z |3b|: (or that didn't happen in earlier calls due to different data)
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2016-09-15T05:57:11Z Bike: you can get the policy with ccl:current-compiler-policy! it's even exported! but it doesn't tell you how to find the predicates argh
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2016-09-15T05:58:25Z emaczen: POLICY.ALLOW-TAIL-RECURSION-ELIMINATION: #<Anonymous Function #x3000006FBECF> -- this is from the slime inspector
2016-09-15T05:58:31Z Bike: yes
2016-09-15T05:59:08Z White_Flame: but allow vs force...
2016-09-15T05:59:08Z emaczen: Does this mean it is probably trying to do tail eliminations but it just isn't as good as SBCL?
2016-09-15T05:59:30Z Bike: emaczen: no, the function is just a predicate for w hether the compiler even tries
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2016-09-15T05:59:43Z Bike: and, i found it, it should be on when debug is not three
2016-09-15T05:59:59Z emaczen: Bike: how do you find things out so quickly?
2016-09-15T06:00:07Z Bike: grep
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2016-09-15T06:00:35Z emaczen: I've got this: (declaim (optimize (speed 3))) at the top of every file
2016-09-15T06:00:41Z Bike: doesn't touch debug
2016-09-15T06:00:51Z Bike: try debug 2, i guess
2016-09-15T06:01:24Z Bike: i have a lot of sympathy for the scholastics, who had to use primitive rolodexes or even papers with words on them
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2016-09-15T06:03:23Z jasom: Bike: for things you lookup often, there were advantages, since you naturally have a sense of spatial reasoning (subconsciously thinking "this was about 5/12 of the way through the rolodex" or "bottom 1/3 of page about 50 pages in"); for all non-common lookups though it was much worse than grep
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2016-09-15T06:04:18Z Bike: oh, i do that all the time. usually just left page versus right page though
2016-09-15T06:04:23Z pillton: Long live print!
2016-09-15T06:04:27Z Bike: and that doesn't even work if you have a scroll or something! oh the humanity!
2016-09-15T06:04:49Z emaczen: Bike: what does this mean then? It just isn't as good at tail-call elimination as SBCL?
2016-09-15T06:05:14Z Bike: emaczen: no it means that ccl doesn't eliminate tail calls if debug is 3, so i'm asking you to try setting debug to something else
2016-09-15T06:05:32Z emaczen: default looks to be 1
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2016-09-15T06:06:06Z emaczen: I still get the same error...
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2016-09-15T06:08:50Z pillton: emaczen: Insert this in the function which requires tail call optimization. http://paste.lisp.org/display/326072
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2016-09-15T06:10:58Z emaczen: pillton: Okay, I'm testing it now -- what is it supposed to do?
2016-09-15T06:11:18Z emaczen: Okay I see: ((SPEED 3) (SAFETY 1) (COMPILATION-SPEED 1) (SPACE 1) (DEBUG 1))
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2016-09-15T06:13:56Z pillton: emaczen: And you inserted it like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/326072#1
2016-09-15T06:14:47Z emaczen: ye
2016-09-15T06:14:48Z emaczen: es
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2016-09-15T06:25:44Z evenson: Is <https://common-lisp.net> down for others?
2016-09-15T06:26:01Z White_Flame: works for me
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2016-09-15T06:26:19Z evenson: White_Flame: Ok.  Thanks
2016-09-15T06:28:19Z pillton: evenson: FYI, there are online services that can be used to answer that question. e.g. http://www.isitdownrightnow.com/common-lisp.net.html
2016-09-15T06:28:55Z evenson: pillton: I know.
2016-09-15T06:29:21Z evenson: But thanks.
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2016-09-15T07:16:33Z John[Lisbeth]: This is the machine I was talking about earlier: http://lpaste.net/195914
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2016-09-15T08:51:21Z knobo: I thought for a moment that  (write "12345678" :length 3 ) would print "123"
2016-09-15T08:53:24Z knobo: but length is only for lists.
2016-09-15T08:55:51Z raydeejay: (coerce "12345678" 'list)
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2016-09-15T08:58:48Z knobo: Is there a format directive that prints a string  but limit its length?
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2016-09-15T08:59:33Z H4ns: knobo: no
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2016-09-15T09:31:12Z myrkraverk: I did an extensive research in this area a short while ago.  There isn't.
2016-09-15T09:31:20Z myrkraverk: So I rolled my own thing.
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2016-09-15T09:36:35Z raydeejay: something like (defun chop-string (str len) (subseq str 0 (1- (max len (length str))))) ?
2016-09-15T09:36:57Z raydeejay: um, min
2016-09-15T09:38:57Z raydeejay: (defun chop-string (str len) (subseq str 0 (min len (length str))))
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2016-09-15T09:43:30Z _death: (write-string "12345678" t :end 3)
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2016-09-15T09:47:52Z loke: _death: If :END is greater than the length of the string, you'll get an error.
2016-09-15T09:50:04Z raydeejay: actually s/chop-string/max-subseq/ and s/str/seq/
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2016-09-15T09:57:07Z loke: I'm sure there was a library (I thought it was uiop or alexandria) that provided a WITH-OUTPUT-TO-BYTE-ARRAY, but for the life of me I can't find it.
2016-09-15T09:57:16Z loke: What is it called, and where can I find it?
2016-09-15T09:57:32Z _death: flexi-streams, for example
2016-09-15T09:57:43Z loke: ah, thanks
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2016-09-15T10:11:56Z myrkraverk: What do I use, to catch all - or almost all - errors?
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2016-09-15T10:12:25Z myrkraverk: I'd like to catch most errors, write to syslog, and then exit.
2016-09-15T10:13:21Z White_Flame: the definition of "most" will really affect the solution
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2016-09-15T10:14:27Z White_Flame: (handler-case (...body...) (error (e) (...handle error e...))) is a pretty fundamental way to do so
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2016-09-15T10:15:50Z myrkraverk: I just had my code crash because of an error in cl-ssl, deep within drakma.  I'd like to catch that, and log it.
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2016-09-15T10:16:35Z myrkraverk: And of course, no indication that anything was wrong with the request, or server.
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2016-09-15T10:17:14Z _death: the error might provide an indication
2016-09-15T10:17:33Z Grue``: it is always possible for something to crash in a way you can't handle
2016-09-15T10:17:48Z myrkraverk: Yeah, I'd just like to log it -- then exit.
2016-09-15T10:18:11Z myrkraverk: _death: in fact, it doesn't: An I/O error occurred: undocumented reason (return code: 5).
2016-09-15T10:18:29Z myrkraverk: I'll repeat the "undocumented reason"
2016-09-15T10:18:39Z _death: you could check what return code 5 is in openssl parlance
2016-09-15T10:19:06Z Grue``: probably "undocumented reason"
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2016-09-15T10:20:19Z Grue``: if you call a C library and it crashes, there's not much that can be done
2016-09-15T10:20:34Z myrkraverk: Exactly.
2016-09-15T10:21:00Z _death: then you could also inspect the packets, and perhaps understand how to fix that
2016-09-15T10:21:18Z _death: I don't see any crash here
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2016-09-15T10:22:46Z myrkraverk: _death: what do you mean?
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2016-09-15T10:23:21Z myrkraverk: Well, what I mean is, since I don't have the debugger enabled, my program "crashes" when there's an unhandled error.  (maybe a poor choice of words on my part)
2016-09-15T10:24:15Z _death: and there's always stuff you can do when something crashes, whether it's C code or Lisp code..
2016-09-15T10:25:24Z myrkraverk: Yeah -- but whether I want to do more than restart the app is a different question.
2016-09-15T10:27:08Z myrkraverk: In any case, I took the error output and saved it in a file (copied from my terminal this time) so I can look at it later -- I cannot do much more right now.
2016-09-15T10:27:48Z _death: ok
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2016-09-15T10:37:01Z myrkraverk: Can I get the sb-debugger:backtrace in a form I can output myself?
2016-09-15T10:37:23Z _death: backtrace-as-list?
2016-09-15T10:37:51Z _death: or rather, since it's deprecated, list-backtrace
2016-09-15T10:37:58Z myrkraverk: Yup, that would be "exactly it"
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2016-09-15T15:17:02Z knobo: Can I list slots of a structure-object?
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2016-09-15T15:17:56Z knobo: or, rather: how do I do it?
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2016-09-15T15:21:11Z rpg: I *believe* that listing slots is a MOP function, not a standard CL function, but I can't swear to it.
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2016-09-15T15:21:50Z rpg: I don't know if this introspection is available for STRUCTURE-CLASS
2016-09-15T15:22:33Z Bike: listing slots is mop (mop:class-slots), and i forget if it's defined on structure-class but it'll work in several implementations
2016-09-15T15:22:57Z Bike: of course, if you just want to look at them you can do DESCRIBE or something.
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2016-09-15T15:27:59Z knobo: I'll use clos in stead.
2016-09-15T15:28:18Z knobo: This happens every time I try out structs.
2016-09-15T15:28:30Z knobo: That's why I don't really know how to use them.
2016-09-15T15:28:46Z beach: You can't not use CLOS.
2016-09-15T15:28:48Z moore33: knobo: You won't miss them.
2016-09-15T15:29:02Z moore33: beach: Hello, by the way :)
2016-09-15T15:29:06Z beach: Hey!
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2016-09-15T15:29:38Z knobo: But I feel like I should know them, as I consider common lisp my first language now.
2016-09-15T15:29:38Z rpg: I have always meant to port Drew McDermott's OBJECT (?) macro that lets you define an object and then just choose whether or not you want STRUCT or CLOS back-end, as a way of avoiding rework
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2016-09-15T15:30:11Z rpg: If stuff is really time-critical, structures can be helpful.
2016-09-15T15:30:37Z knobo: Well, the only time-critical issue here is getting things done...
2016-09-15T15:30:40Z knobo: :)
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2016-09-15T16:01:58Z pierpa: what's the use case of needing to know the slots of a structure?
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2016-09-15T16:08:43Z oGMo: pierpa: anything inspector-like?
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2016-09-15T16:09:52Z pierpa: ah, yes. I was thinking about user code.
2016-09-15T16:10:20Z jasom: it's trivialy to statically define the slots in a struct, and perfectly reasonable as redefining structs is a no-no anyway
2016-09-15T16:10:30Z jasom: s/trivaly/trivial
2016-09-15T16:11:50Z pierpa: anyway, it's not possible to portably access this information, because in this way implementations are free to optimize the structure layout in interesting ways.
2016-09-15T16:12:20Z pierpa: but I don't know if any implementation profits from this freedom.
2016-09-15T16:12:34Z jasom: a mydefstruct that behaves like defstruct could let you save the information at definition time.
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2016-09-15T16:14:23Z jasom: it's actually easier to have this information for structures rather than standard-objects because you can't modify the slots of a structure.
2016-09-15T16:15:46Z jasom: clhs 8.1
2016-09-15T16:15:46Z specbot: The Structures Dictionary: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/c_struct.htm
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2016-09-15T16:15:54Z jasom: that's how much love structures got in the spec
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2016-09-15T16:16:46Z jasom: time for me to write the msp; the meta structure protocol
2016-09-15T16:17:00Z moore33: jasom: At least you can get the info for objects.
2016-09-15T16:17:25Z jasom: moore33: I thought only for classes?
2016-09-15T16:18:16Z moore33: jasom: That's what I meant... or objects of metaclass "standard-class."
2016-09-15T16:18:42Z jasom: but you can't get the slots in a standard-object, and I thought it was permitted for those to differ
2016-09-15T16:19:01Z jasom: mop class-slots
2016-09-15T16:19:01Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-slots.html
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2016-09-15T16:22:01Z moore33: jasom: This is a whole slot access protocol, but I understand that that is not very portable at the moment. But you can get at the names of slots and all.
2016-09-15T16:22:11Z moore33: s/This is/There is
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2016-09-15T16:23:19Z jasom: ah, I'm wrong.  You can get an object to behave as if it had slots that it does not via specializations on slot-mising, but any standard-object will have only the effective slots described by its class object
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2016-09-15T16:33:52Z Grue``: doesn't MOP work for structure slots as well?
2016-09-15T16:34:17Z beach: It is not specified.
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2016-09-15T17:50:31Z mordocai: xb
2016-09-15T17:50:43Z mordocai: Oops, didn't hit my control key there
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2016-09-15T17:53:56Z jasom: aha! it was passing -static
2016-09-15T17:54:22Z jasom: Can I get static linking to work, or should I just patch the makefile to not use static linking?
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2016-09-15T18:23:27Z jasom: sorry wrong channel
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2016-09-15T18:44:21Z mordocai: What is the most up to date tool for generating a bundle with all your asdf dependencies so you can zip it up as a "release" of your software (but not a lisp image, that'd be separate)? I was thinking for games in particular it'd be nice to have the specific deps bundled so when people want to inspect the source code/try it out if quicklisp has updated and broke something in your app it doesn't matter.
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2016-09-15T18:56:18Z pipping: mordocai: you're not just asking for any tool but the most up to date one? are there outdated tools that claim to be able to do that?
2016-09-15T18:57:13Z raydeejay: well, the latest outdated one would qualify as the most up to date
2016-09-15T18:57:19Z mordocai: pipping: Nah, I just wanted something that worked really. I guess since it'd be asdf based and asdf doesn't change much asking for "up to date" is a little strange
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2016-09-15T18:58:19Z pipping: hm. asdf doesn't change much? depends on the time scale, maybe.
2016-09-15T18:58:59Z rpg: Ideally, the ASDF API doesn't change much.
2016-09-15T18:59:52Z pipping: I think something like program-op is a huge change, albeit not a breaking one, because it just extended the API
2016-09-15T19:00:02Z _death: are you aware of http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html
2016-09-15T19:00:18Z mordocai: _death: Yeah, but then the person using your software has to do that.
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2016-09-15T19:01:40Z jasom: mordocai: the closest I can think of is  the bundle-op which can make a single .lisp file with all your dependencies &c.
2016-09-15T19:01:42Z rpg: pipping: To be honest, I'm not convinced that PROGRAM-OP wasn't a mistake.  It's a huge IOU to maintain a compatibility API over all the implementations' image-creation facilities.
2016-09-15T19:01:47Z _death: mordocai: you can always provide a docker image or a vm image
2016-09-15T19:02:18Z jasom: rpg: I agree that program-op is a mistake; that behavior belongs in uiop.  Having a standard field for "entry point function" would be fine though.
2016-09-15T19:02:38Z pipping: jasom: which is why it is in uiop :P
2016-09-15T19:03:17Z jasom: In fact I think I (ab)use the field that program-op uses, since I pretty much never want the program to end up with my fasl cache
2016-09-15T19:03:18Z pipping: (uiop:dump-image :executable t), to be precise
2016-09-15T19:03:23Z rpg: jasom: Personally, I think it would be better kept entirely elsewhere (e.g., buildapp)
2016-09-15T19:03:47Z pipping: jasom: program-op doesn't require your executable to go to the fasl cache.
2016-09-15T19:03:49Z jasom: buildapp and program-op are somewhat orthogonal.  buildapp does a bunch of stuff I don't want.
2016-09-15T19:03:51Z rpg: Adding it to ASDF directly lead to UIOP eating a new layer of functionality.
2016-09-15T19:04:19Z pipping: Unfortunately, the documentation is a bit terse, which is why nobody seems to get that though :P
2016-09-15T19:04:37Z rpg: pipping: Now I can't remember if I put that into the manual....
2016-09-15T19:04:40Z pipping: jasom: please take a look at the minimal example of how to use program op: https://github.com/pipping/cl-echo
2016-09-15T19:05:10Z rpg: I hate PROGRAM-OP, because it makes ASDF have to track everyone's image dumping.
2016-09-15T19:05:29Z rpg: I'd rather that was someone else's job
2016-09-15T19:05:41Z jasom: ah
2016-09-15T19:05:53Z jasom: well nobody was doing it before, from wht I can tell
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2016-09-15T19:06:10Z rpg: jasom: That's not a good reason for *me* to have to!
2016-09-15T19:06:22Z pipping: jasom: https://github.com/pipping/cl-echo/blob/master/echo.asd#L4 is what results in an executable called "echo" in the CWD
2016-09-15T19:06:28Z jasom: rpg: indeed :)
2016-09-15T19:06:30Z raydeejay: you don't *have* to... xD
2016-09-15T19:06:49Z rpg: raydeejay: Any time you want to take over the reins at ASDF, I"m ready to hand them off!
2016-09-15T19:06:53Z pipping: rpg: could I have a little more we-put-a-man-on-the-moon spirit? :P
2016-09-15T19:07:21Z rpg: I was ok when we were putting the man on the moon: it's when I found out that I was signed up for the Mars mission, as well...
2016-09-15T19:07:27Z raydeejay: to someone as clueless as me? I wouldn't do it :D
2016-09-15T19:07:44Z pipping: raydeejay: don't worry, nobody was seriously considering handing it over to /you/ ;)
2016-09-15T19:07:51Z jasom: you need someone clueless enough to take it on, but competent enough to not ruin it.  There aren't many like that :)
2016-09-15T19:08:24Z raydeejay: that's easy enough: do not touch it at all!
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2016-09-15T19:09:22Z pipping: rpg: I'd like it if you continued to make the cow dance. Just let me know what incentives you need. If you want a birthday cake delivered to your address every year, consider it done.
2016-09-15T19:10:03Z rpg: Probably just want not to see ASDF grow its charter more without a chance to veto.  And some help with the horrible Windows platform.
2016-09-15T19:10:32Z rpg: What I really want to do -- and keep getting side-tracked from -- is to rationalize the TEST--OP.
2016-09-15T19:11:21Z jasom: rpg: I'm working on the horrible windows platform help this weekend
2016-09-15T19:11:26Z pipping: rpg: actually, I was hoping to talk to you about image dumping for a bit in #asdf :D
2016-09-15T19:11:36Z rpg: pipping: ok
2016-09-15T19:11:54Z jasom: rpg: I forgot to ask; do you have a preferred vm tool? (qemu, virtualbox, something else)?
2016-09-15T19:12:26Z rpg: jasom: I've been using virtualbox, but that's just because Dave Cooper gave me the VM for that (which I have been maintaining... somewhat).
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2016-09-15T19:16:03Z pipping: btw, https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/downloads/virtual-machines might be worth looking into.
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2016-09-15T19:23:10Z mordocai: pipping: Thats how I get legit windows vms for testing stuff for work
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2016-09-15T19:23:23Z mordocai: I've even converted them to work with kvm before
2016-09-15T19:24:01Z pipping: Great.
2016-09-15T19:25:28Z jasom: pipping: yeah I knew about that
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2016-09-15T19:57:34Z shrdlu68: Greetings, humans.
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2016-09-15T19:58:56Z shrdlu68: I'm getting an internal server error from hunchentoot. No conditions are invoked, all I see is just "[2016-09-15 22:51:57 [ERROR]] 1". Any pointers?
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2016-09-15T20:00:35Z shrdlu68: As far as I can tell, this is not issued by my code, so it could be an issue with hunchentoot.
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2016-09-15T20:01:51Z jasom: shrdlu68: try setting hunchentoot:*catch-errors-p* or another option listed here: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#conditions
2016-09-15T20:02:17Z shrdlu68: jasom: Yeah, thanks. I actually just saw that.
2016-09-15T20:02:40Z jasom: also check *standard-error* (which is probably the inferior lisp buffer if you're running under slime)
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2016-09-15T20:03:22Z jasom: then you can set *log-lisp-errors-p* and *log-lisp-backtraces-p* to log those (I don't recall the default values for those)
2016-09-15T20:05:42Z shrdlu68: jasom: Okay, thanks for the help :)
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2016-09-15T21:40:41Z jasom: for those using ql::dependency-tree for deps, note that it doesn't handle deps for package-inferred-systems
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2016-09-15T21:51:59Z Quadresce: Is there a way to make SBCL quiet when the heap exhausts and not print all that info?
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2016-09-15T22:02:54Z jasom: Quadresce: not that I know of; why do you wish to do it?  (Actually I think that goes to stderr, so you could send stderr to /dev/null, but that would have other consequences)
2016-09-15T22:05:06Z Quadresce: jasom, I don't want a user program to see this mumbo jumbo when this error happens.
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2016-09-15T22:05:23Z jasom: Anyone else notice that cl-scripting seems to depend on cl-launch/dispatch, which quicklisp doesn't know how to load?
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2016-09-15T22:06:15Z jasom: Quadresce: I think it only prints liminted information with --disable-ldb and --lose-on-corruption
2016-09-15T22:06:41Z lispi: hello :-) dont know if my question is better suited in #clojure (asked there too btw), but i'll give it a try. i want to learn clojure (know lisp a bit and scheme), and want to read the classic "paradigms of artificial programming". can i go through it using clojure? or is there sth, that only CL has needed?
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2016-09-15T22:07:31Z jasom: lispi: you will need to know enough CL to translate the example code to clojure; clojure and CL are very different.
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2016-09-15T22:08:06Z Quadresce: jasom, I guess I should find where that's implemented and see what they do. I'm using SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE
2016-09-15T22:08:23Z jasom: Quadresce: you can tell it to save those options I think
2016-09-15T22:08:38Z Quadresce: (actually I'm using buildapp)
2016-09-15T22:08:50Z jasom: :save-runtime-options t
2016-09-15T22:08:58Z jasom: that needs to go to s-l-a-d
2016-09-15T22:09:15Z lispi: jasom: i know they're different, but thought, that 'back in the day' they tried to be as functional (and pure) as possible, so i thought, it's kinda clojure-ish
2016-09-15T22:09:25Z Bike: that is the opposite of what they did.
2016-09-15T22:09:29Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-15T22:09:46Z jasom: Quadresce: that will also let you specify a larger than default heap size, which you likely want if this is a possibility
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2016-09-15T22:10:08Z jasom: it really only prints out ~40 lines of stuff and then exits.  Not worse than the average crash dialog
2016-09-15T22:10:15Z jasom: lispi: that's not at all what they did.
2016-09-15T22:10:27Z jasom: lispi: you might be thinking of scheme?
2016-09-15T22:10:33Z Quadresce: jasom, it's really not a tactful message for someone who isn't thinking about Lisp or programming or anything
2016-09-15T22:10:34Z lispi: jasom: haha ok, so my misconception^^
2016-09-15T22:10:43Z raydeejay: SCHEME IS NOT LISP! \o/
2016-09-15T22:10:52Z jasom: /ignore raydeejay
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2016-09-15T22:11:00Z lispi: raydeejay: i know that
2016-09-15T22:11:25Z raydeejay: it's just that that sounds pretty much like Scheme when you pronounce it
2016-09-15T22:11:54Z lispi: jasom: ok then i am better of with going through PAIP with lisp i think... .
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2016-09-15T22:12:08Z jasom: lispi: yeah, unless you're already familiar with lisp
2016-09-15T22:12:47Z lispi: jasom: i know some stuff, but dont know if it is sufficient.
2016-09-15T22:13:26Z lispi: but thanks, i'll read into it and will see
2016-09-15T22:16:48Z AndChat510384: Hi, has any1 read 'The land of Lisp'?
2016-09-15T22:16:58Z raydeejay: yes
2016-09-15T22:17:04Z AndChat510384: Good to start?
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2016-09-15T22:17:46Z raydeejay: I think it's fine... rather on the light side
2016-09-15T22:19:00Z jasom: AndChat510384: depends on what your background is
2016-09-15T22:19:09Z AndChat510384: Python
2016-09-15T22:19:12Z AndChat510384: C++
2016-09-15T22:19:28Z AndChat510384: And just for fun
2016-09-15T22:20:27Z jasom: AndChat510384: PCL is IMO a better introduction for experienced programmers, and it's free.  Other than that land of lisp is fine
2016-09-15T22:20:30Z oGMo: eh you should probably read PCL, figure out where CLHS is, and just start writing (and reading!) code
2016-09-15T22:20:32Z jasom: minion: tell AndChat510384 about book
2016-09-15T22:20:38Z minion: book: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/book
2016-09-15T22:20:41Z jasom: minion: tell AndChat510384 about pcl
2016-09-15T22:20:41Z minion: AndChat510384: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2016-09-15T22:21:06Z raydeejay: I wouldn't call PCL "just for fun"
2016-09-15T22:21:18Z jasom: raydeejay: depends on your definition of "fun" I suppose
2016-09-15T22:21:47Z raydeejay: I think that Land of Lisp does an excellent job at engaging you with the games while you get hooked on Lisp
2016-09-15T22:22:02Z raydeejay: then you can quench the thirst afterwards
2016-09-15T22:22:20Z mordocai loves Land of Lisp, Realm of Racket, and Clojure for the Brave and True (all of them teach with games)
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2016-09-15T22:23:47Z AndChat510384: Thanks a lot for the feedback
2016-09-15T22:24:13Z raydeejay: they should have named it Clojure for the Coward, to keep the pattern
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2016-09-15T22:25:21Z jasom: Castle of Clojure?
2016-09-15T22:25:28Z raydeejay: ok that words too
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2016-09-15T22:26:28Z jasom: AndChat510384: Land of Lisp is cerainly more lighthearted, if that aligns more with your learning "just for fun" then it might be the best bet.
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2016-09-15T22:32:17Z AndChat510384: Well I don't have a project in mind, so I guess at this point onvy looking for something to start
2016-09-15T22:33:46Z raydeejay: start with land of lisp, you can go through it relatively quickly and get acquainted with the language
2016-09-15T22:34:01Z raydeejay: then continue with one of the more "serious" books
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2016-09-15T22:39:20Z AndChat510384: Ok, i am checking PCL
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2016-09-15T22:41:30Z Quadresce: there should be a blog post called "how to make your lisp program be quiet"
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2016-09-15T23:09:03Z pipping: Quadresce: as in, keep compilers from printing banners and information about what they're loading?
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2016-09-15T23:14:33Z Quadresce: pipping, more than just that, error messages, random warnings, etc. etc.
2016-09-15T23:15:30Z pipping: uh... but you do still want to see /some/ output?
2016-09-15T23:15:38Z pipping: because it sounds like you just want >/dev/null 2>&1
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2016-09-15T23:17:43Z jasom: you could always do something like (let ((*my-error-output* *error-output*)(*error-output* (open "/dev/null" :direction :output)) and use *my-error-output* for all your code (and do the same for the 3 or 4 other standard streams
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2016-09-15T23:21:56Z Quadresce: jasom, that doesn't set the C runtime stderr
2016-09-15T23:22:18Z jasom: nope
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2016-09-15T23:22:32Z Quadresce: pipping, yes some output of course
2016-09-15T23:22:45Z jasom: on a different note, ql2nix has now processed 5% of the systems in quicklisp.
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2016-09-15T23:24:56Z pipping: jasom: is there an adventage of (open "/dev/null") over (make-broadcast-stream)?
2016-09-15T23:25:23Z jasom: pipping: probably not
2016-09-15T23:27:00Z jasom: While this is a good first-effort, I think I'm going to have to change ql2nix to map ql projects to nix packages rather than systems to nix packages.  I can then parameterize the expressions so that it's possible to build only the systems that you care about to reduce dependencies.
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2016-09-15T23:52:53Z pipping: jasom: if assume that using common lisp and nix are statistically independent (which I'm sure they're not)...
2016-09-15T23:53:06Z pipping: jasom: ... then that leaves you as the sole user of both I'd say :P
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2016-09-15T23:54:35Z raydeejay: nice pep talk
2016-09-15T23:54:36Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-15T23:55:34Z pipping: I'm not trying to be a dick. I just think there's time well spent and other time.
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2016-09-15T23:56:19Z raydeejay: then it's a matter of it counting as a useful tool for himself or not
2016-09-15T23:56:57Z raydeejay: "for him*", I guess
2016-09-15T23:57:15Z pipping: if having $100 in your pocket is the same to you as having $100 in everybody's pocket, then yes.
2016-09-15T23:58:11Z raydeejay: when did money come into the equation?
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2016-09-15T23:59:48Z pipping: that's pars-pro-toto for the concept of value here.
2016-09-16T00:00:10Z raydeejay: unless you mean that time spent crafting a tool to have an easier time crafting more thing is not well spent
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2016-09-16T00:01:06Z raydeejay: things*
2016-09-16T00:01:21Z pipping: oh, i'm not saying that at all. i believe that kids how to differentiate a polynomial has value even if they never see another polynomial in their entire life.
2016-09-16T00:01:28Z pipping: +teaching
2016-09-16T00:02:01Z pipping: (I wonder who always eats those single words missing from my sentences)
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2016-09-16T00:02:05Z raydeejay: um, I feel like that analogy is also a bad match
2016-09-16T00:02:15Z raydeejay: they go to the typoverse
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2016-09-16T00:02:48Z raydeejay: all those missing letters and words from every message ever are acumulating in the typo verse, and one of these days they will become sentient
2016-09-16T00:02:57Z raydeejay: and redact us all
2016-09-16T00:03:34Z pipping: are there still some cookies in that jar? I'd like to try one.
2016-09-16T00:04:32Z raydeejay: but we digress... my point is that, if his nix/CL thing makes life easier for him, say having him make 3 useful packages instead of 2, it's clearly time well spent
2016-09-16T00:04:46Z raydeejay handwaves at the fact that crafting the tool itself takes time too
2016-09-16T00:05:02Z pipping: not entirely irrelevant: https://xkcd.com/1205/
2016-09-16T00:05:19Z raydeejay: heh yeah, I had that in the back of my mind
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2016-09-16T00:06:19Z raydeejay: I really don't know how much time jasom spends on this and how much he gets out of it
2016-09-16T00:06:34Z pipping: i tried nix, gentoo prefix, pkgsrc, and gnu src in the past to automate the installation of some packages on a linux box I don't have root access to
2016-09-16T00:07:16Z raydeejay: and...
2016-09-16T00:07:20Z pipping: each one had annoying shortcomings. so much time wasted. eventually wrote my own install scripts that worked just for my case. never looked back.
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2016-09-16T00:07:37Z raydeejay: you mean you used time to craft a tool for yourself?
2016-09-16T00:08:02Z pipping: i did the opposite: i decided against building a system.
2016-09-16T00:08:02Z raydeejay: would you call that time well spent? :]
2016-09-16T00:08:35Z raydeejay: it could be argued that it's still a system, just a simpler one
2016-09-16T00:08:38Z pipping: i used shell scripts. nothing that involved any kind of complicated logic. no problem solving involved.
2016-09-16T00:09:12Z raydeejay: (note that I'm generally opposed to solving problems that I don't have)
2016-09-16T00:09:13Z pipping: extreme stand points are boring because nobody can every disprove you.
2016-09-16T00:09:30Z pipping: ever, even
2016-09-16T00:09:43Z pipping: or prove you wrong, i should say.
2016-09-16T00:09:46Z raydeejay: all I'm saying is that maybe simple shell scripts don't cut it for him
2016-09-16T00:09:52Z raydeejay: maybe you know his motivations, I don't
2016-09-16T00:10:12Z raydeejay: (I might disagree as to simple scripts not cutting it...)
2016-09-16T00:10:40Z pipping: I don't. But I've sunk time into solving a certain subset of 'the lisp issue' for another distro myself.
2016-09-16T00:10:47Z raydeejay: I'm thinking that I might ahve misunderstood you
2016-09-16T00:11:00Z pipping: It was fun but I know now that I was kidding myself into thinking there was any point in it.
2016-09-16T00:11:06Z raydeejay: you were commenting on the lines of not spending time making a general thing?
2016-09-16T00:13:04Z pipping: No idea what I was saying.
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2016-09-16T00:13:32Z raydeejay: this <pipping> I'm not trying to be a dick. I just think there's time well spent and other time.
2016-09-16T00:13:32Z raydeejay:  
2016-09-16T00:16:31Z pipping is off to bed (good quote, though)
2016-09-16T00:16:40Z raydeejay: o/
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2016-09-16T00:29:57Z rpg: I'm having a persistent problem with SLIME indentation: labels and flet expressions aren't getting indented properly (the line after the function name and args is indented under the args).
2016-09-16T00:30:23Z rpg: I'd super appreciate any suggestions about how to debug this -- emacs lisp indentation seems like a deep black art.
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2016-09-16T00:34:51Z rpg: I find a plausible looking entry in 'common-lisp-indent-function for flet, but it is not indented according to that table entry.
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2016-09-16T00:38:15Z pillton: rpg: What is the example?
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2016-09-16T00:38:41Z rpg: pillton: I'll lisppaste ... hang on...
2016-09-16T00:39:53Z rpg: pillton: http://paste.lisp.org/+6ZNT
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2016-09-16T00:42:43Z rpg: pillton: In a slime buffer is indent-line-function bound to lisp-indent-line, as defined in lisp-mode.el?
2016-09-16T00:42:51Z pillton: rpg: Is this what you want? http://paste.lisp.org/display/326153#1
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2016-09-16T00:43:18Z rpg: pillton: Yes, that's right.  I don't understand why I don't get it.
2016-09-16T00:43:32Z pillton: Are you using quicklisp-slime-helper?
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2016-09-16T00:49:38Z rpg: pillton: No. I just pull SLIME from git and load it in my init.el
2016-09-16T00:50:05Z rpg: I was wondering if I might somehow have messed things up so that I'm getting vanilla lisp-mode indentation instead of SLIME's CL indentation.
2016-09-16T00:50:31Z pillton: Ok. Well I use the slime-indentation contrib.
2016-09-16T00:50:58Z Bike: i think even without the contrib it should align flet better than that
2016-09-16T00:51:11Z Bike: probably worth a shot though
2016-09-16T00:55:27Z rpg: I think I'm using the slime-indentation contrib, too, because isn't that what you get with fancy.
2016-09-16T00:55:46Z rpg: But at any rate, FLET isn't one of the symbols handled by slime-indentation -- it's already handled by the code in slime.el
2016-09-16T00:56:03Z rpg: I think somehow slime is not properly stomping the generic lisp mode for me.
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2016-09-16T00:58:39Z rpg: What's the value of indent-line-function for you in a lisp source buffer?
2016-09-16T00:59:29Z pillton: lisp-indent-line.
2016-09-16T01:00:37Z pillton: You haven't got a crazy character sequence above that code? Does it indent properly on its own?
2016-09-16T01:00:40Z rpg: OK, I see what's wrong.
2016-09-16T01:01:03Z rpg: In one of my buffers, where everything is working, the value of lisp-indent-function is common-lisp-indent-function -- that's what I should get from slime.
2016-09-16T01:01:38Z rpg: In the buffer where bad things are happening, though, lisp-indent-function evaluates to 'lisp-indent-function
2016-09-16T01:01:43Z rpg: So that's what's busted somehow.
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2016-09-16T01:03:10Z rpg: I have to go, pillton, but thank you very much -- I'm not sure what's wrong, but I know where to look!  TTYL!
2016-09-16T01:03:22Z pillton: No worries. Have fun.
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2016-09-16T01:30:14Z rpg: pillton: I have ALMOST figured it out.
2016-09-16T01:30:41Z rpg: I think my slime mode buffers are not being entered by lisp-mode somehow.
2016-09-16T01:31:10Z rpg: So, what normally happens is that when lisp-mode is turned on, we turn on slime, and then we set the lisp-indent-function.
2016-09-16T01:31:20Z rpg: Seems like somehow I'm entering a slime mode without indirection through lisp-mode
2016-09-16T01:31:30Z rpg: and this only sometimes happens.
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2016-09-16T01:32:08Z rpg: I wonder if this is related to me opening lisp source files before a common lisp implementation is connected.
2016-09-16T01:32:14Z pillton: I don't know enough about emacs and slime to help debug. Sorry.
2016-09-16T01:32:39Z pillton: Do you manually set common-lisp-indent-function?
2016-09-16T01:32:47Z rpg: When I open lisp files without a repl running, I get an error from slime-mode "not connected."
2016-09-16T01:32:57Z rpg: I wonder if that aborts the call that would set up the indent function.
2016-09-16T01:33:10Z pillton: I don't get that error.
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2016-09-16T01:34:33Z rpg: I bet that's it, but I wonder why I'm getting it.
2016-09-16T01:34:35Z emaczen: Is there a numerical function that returns both the quotient and remainder?
2016-09-16T01:34:50Z rpg: FLOOR CEIL
2016-09-16T01:35:29Z emaczen: rpg: Oh I didn't see the optional arg
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2016-09-16T02:55:30Z jasom: raydeejay: there are at least two other lispers using nix; there are already some ql packages in nix, but there's a lot of manual work that goes into making them.  I'm trying to automate the process as much as possible (one example, I generate a naive lisp expression for a system, try building the system, catch it complaining about a missing library and then auto-add the library to the deps).
2016-09-16T02:58:07Z jasom: rpg: does M-x slime-mode RET on a non-working buffer make it work?
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2016-09-16T03:02:47Z jasom: rpg: rather lisp-mode not slime-mode
2016-09-16T03:04:41Z jasom: is it possible to query cl-test-grid's results easily in a programmatic manner?  It would be nice to quickly populate a per-lisp-implementation blacklist.
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2016-09-16T03:07:58Z jasom: Apparently i had not RTFM'd enough: https://github.com/cl-test-grid/cl-test-grid/tree/master/reporting
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2016-09-16T04:02:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-09-16T11:56:58Z shrdlu68: Which is the md5 implementation that is identified by quicklisp as :md5 ?
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2016-09-16T12:14:08Z saolof: Out of curiosity, does the common lisp language spec still get updated?
2016-09-16T12:17:27Z _death: no
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2016-09-16T12:24:19Z shrdlu68: In your experience, which implementation provide the most consistent output from the macro `time`?
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2016-09-16T12:49:48Z H4ns: shrdlu68: that's kind of a strange thing to ask for.  what problem are you trying to solve?
2016-09-16T12:50:18Z shrdlu68: Wow. Hunchentoot just took over 2 minutes to process a request with a 133M file.
2016-09-16T12:51:11Z shrdlu68: H4ns: Performanc timing. I was trying to compare different CL md5 implementations.
2016-09-16T12:51:37Z H4ns: shrdlu68: all implementations that i know deliver consistent cl:time output
2016-09-16T12:51:55Z H4ns: shrdlu68: it is just that the run time of a form can vary, in particular when garbage is produced and collected.
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2016-09-16T12:52:51Z H4ns: shrdlu68: it does not make sense to select an implementation based on its time output consistency, really.  you should make sure that what you measure is what you're interested in, which might not be gc time.
2016-09-16T12:53:05Z shrdlu68: H4ns: For instance, the number of CPU cycles. That should be consistent, right? Unless it's determined heuristically.
2016-09-16T12:53:44Z shrdlu68: H4ns: Oh I'm not selecting the implementations based on this. Just wanted one specifically for this task.
2016-09-16T12:53:59Z H4ns: shrdlu68: if you mean that it should always show the same number of cycles, then no - the number of cycles spent in a form depends on a number of things.  scheduling and gc, for example.
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2016-09-16T12:54:57Z shrdlu68: I see.
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2016-09-16T13:01:17Z cromachina: processor cycles is usually another measure of time
2016-09-16T13:01:23Z cromachina: try (time (sleep 1)) for example
2016-09-16T13:03:06Z cromachina: which of course changes when/if your CPU scales frequency
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2016-09-16T13:10:51Z dlowe: profiling is so much more complicated these days than people give it credit for.
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2016-09-16T13:11:14Z dlowe: cpu cycles don't necessarily matter as much as pipeline resets.
2016-09-16T13:11:21Z dlowe: Neither of them matter as much as cache misses
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2016-09-16T13:11:54Z dlowe: Eventually, unless you're working on a compiler, you have to realize that there's two speeds for systems: fast enough and not fast enough.
2016-09-16T13:12:29Z Xach: NO! I want FASTEST
2016-09-16T13:12:38Z jackdaniel: fasterest ;)
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2016-09-16T13:14:42Z edgar-rft: here you can make a fastest: <http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/fetal-alcohol-syndrome/basics/tests-diagnosis/con-20021015>
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2016-09-16T13:32:00Z JuanDaugherty: you miss a lot in text, i mistook libreboot in another channel to be lib reboot instead of libre boot
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2016-09-16T13:39:14Z loke`: JuanDaugherty: What's the story about the libreboot stuff?
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2016-09-16T13:39:56Z JuanDaugherty: apparently a trans kerfufflue
2016-09-16T13:40:10Z JuanDaugherty: kerfuffle
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2016-09-16T13:40:32Z loke`: JuanDaugherty: Yeah, I saw the post linked from HN
2016-09-16T13:40:52Z loke`: The assertion that somebody got fired for their sexual oritentation, which sounds remarkably unlikely.
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2016-09-16T13:41:13Z JuanDaugherty: especially @ FSF
2016-09-16T13:41:17Z loke`: I saw a reply from JW which was ignored, and then another post that said nothing but "fuck gnu"
2016-09-16T13:41:42Z loke`: Now, I'll be the first to agree with that statement in many cases, but this one sounds fishy.
2016-09-16T13:42:35Z JuanDaugherty: the only useful part of the whole thing is how it exposes the nature of civilization based on domination and repression, which is the root etiology of the phenomenon in question
2016-09-16T13:43:06Z JuanDaugherty: and something more is lacking too
2016-09-16T13:44:14Z JuanDaugherty: ideally in the absence of repression, the only possible non cis cases would be actual intersex people
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2016-09-16T13:44:39Z JuanDaugherty: but in the rare cases of non-repression of course that's not what's necessarily observed
2016-09-16T13:44:59Z dlowe waits to see how this is going to be brought around to lisp.
2016-09-16T13:45:22Z JuanDaugherty: speaking with one maybe
2016-09-16T13:46:04Z JuanDaugherty: which a positive fastest may indicate you someday will do
2016-09-16T13:47:31Z JuanDaugherty: anybody know of concept-net open mind cl software?
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2016-09-16T13:51:16Z JuanDaugherty: (or scheme)
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2016-09-16T13:57:34Z dlowe: not freely available
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2016-09-16T13:57:56Z JuanDaugherty: you mean the basis of somebody's product?
2016-09-16T13:58:36Z JuanDaugherty: guess it doesn't matter
2016-09-16T14:00:53Z JuanDaugherty: and ty
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2016-09-16T15:45:01Z flip214: apart from using (DECLARE), (DECLAIM), et.al, resp. DEFMETHOD with types, and the type derivation, is there some way to get even more compile-time checks for types?
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2016-09-16T15:45:28Z flip214: like saying "this generic won't get additional methods, every call that can't be figured out is an error" during compile-time?
2016-09-16T15:46:02Z flip214: I know that it's very unusual, but I'd like to have an argument for the "strong static types" people around me
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2016-09-16T15:53:17Z raydeejay: besides "that's not object oriented programming?" :)
2016-09-16T15:53:37Z scymtym: flip214: i think, this is often called "sealing". dylan supports it: https://opendylan.org/documentation/intro-dylan/modules-libraries.html#sealing . i'm not aware of a CL implementing supporting it properly. SBCL has some bits and pieces like FREEZE-TYPE and CLASSOID sealing, but nothing really comparable (yet).
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2016-09-16T15:57:19Z flip214: well, perhaps http://discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/gf-sealing.lisp would help a bit.
2016-09-16T15:57:37Z flip214: thanks for the answers!
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2016-09-16T16:12:18Z sjl: flip214: also possibly relevant to your interests: https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function/
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2016-09-16T16:29:19Z rpg: I could be wrong, but I think that CLOS itself doesn't really support sealing.
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2016-09-16T16:31:28Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: it doesn't support sealing, but it allows it because it doesn't forbid it
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2016-09-16T16:33:59Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I thought it didn't really allow because there's no way of dealing with CLOS that doesn't potentially break it. So you have to kind of guess whether your lisp image has been compromised when you interact with the object system.
2016-09-16T16:34:51Z fe[nl]ix: what do you mean "interact" ?
2016-09-16T16:35:18Z ggole: The "right" way is for the system to inline transparently
2016-09-16T16:35:20Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I mean program, make new methods, etc.
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2016-09-16T16:35:38Z rpg: ggole: But then you have to figure out how to deal with changes in the set of applicable methods
2016-09-16T16:36:13Z ggole: You invalidate code that made the assumptions that no longer hold
2016-09-16T16:36:19Z rpg: I don't know that there's a set of rules (as I believe there is for Dylan) that says "now I should raise an error because you are messing up a generic function that I thought was sealed."
2016-09-16T16:36:29Z fe[nl]ix: it's easy, once a GF was sealed changing the set of applicable methods becomes forbidden
2016-09-16T16:36:34Z rpg: ggole: I don't know of a spec that articulates that set of assumptions.
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2016-09-16T16:36:48Z ggole: You don't need a spec, just a (very) clever implementation
2016-09-16T16:37:20Z ggole: The difficulty is entirely in the implementation, which is quite difficult
2016-09-16T16:37:26Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Right. If that's acceptable, fine.  If not, you might want a less drastic locking, but I don't know of one.
2016-09-16T16:37:40Z fe[nl]ix: AFAIK there's nothing in the spec that forbids that
2016-09-16T16:38:16Z ggole: (You need to be prepared to rewrite stack frames, since you might be asked to invalidate a function that is currently being invoked on the stack - lots of fun.)
2016-09-16T16:38:47Z fe[nl]ix: one other approach would be a JIT compiler where changing the GF triggers invalidation of call sites
2016-09-16T16:38:51Z fe[nl]ix: and their de-optimization
2016-09-16T16:38:58Z ggole: That's pretty much what I mean, yeah
2016-09-16T16:39:22Z ggole: That would be very useful for cross-package inlining, too
2016-09-16T16:39:25Z fe[nl]ix: I'm pretty sure the ABCL devs could do that
2016-09-16T16:39:48Z fe[nl]ix: the JVM has that capability
2016-09-16T16:39:50Z rpg: I'm not sure that's the low-hanging fruit in ABCL optimization! ;-)
2016-09-16T16:39:59Z fe[nl]ix: probably not
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2016-09-16T16:43:15Z PuercoPop: fe[nl]ix: btw, static-vectors doesn't load on ABCL. It trips on the :depends-on clause of the test system in the asd file. Do you know why is that? The quicklisp version is still 1.6 but the ASDF is 3.1.4 which is > 3.1. I understand that ABCL is not support but I would expect that code to fail, not loading the ASDF definition
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2016-09-16T16:44:34Z fe[nl]ix: PuercoPop: please paste the error
2016-09-16T16:45:35Z fe[nl]ix: is it "static-vectors does not support ..." ?
2016-09-16T16:45:40Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2016-09-16T16:45:54Z fe[nl]ix: it's on purpose
2016-09-16T16:46:58Z fe[nl]ix: if the code doesn't support a certain compiler it makes no sense to allow loading the .asd file only to fail during the compilation
2016-09-16T16:47:40Z PuercoPop: fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/+6ZPL, Steve Losh had the same error
2016-09-16T16:48:25Z PuercoPop: fe[nl]ix: I'm on 1.6 still, but did skimmed the commits to 1.8 to see if something was missing
2016-09-16T16:49:02Z fe[nl]ix: that's very weird
2016-09-16T16:49:22Z fe[nl]ix: :depends-on has been in ASDF since the beginning
2016-09-16T16:51:48Z PuercoPop: yeah, I have no idea why this would happen.
2016-09-16T16:52:23Z PuercoPop: but I'm not the only that this happens on, sjl (how mentioned first in #lispweb) was seeing that error as well
2016-09-16T16:52:30Z fe[nl]ix: what's your ASDF version again ?
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2016-09-16T16:52:53Z fe[nl]ix: anyway, I suggest always using the latest ASDF
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2016-09-16T16:53:20Z PuercoPop: fe[nl]ix: 3.1.4
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2016-09-16T16:54:14Z pipping: well, there are many :depends-on in there
2016-09-16T16:54:29Z pipping: inside defsystem, inside :file, and also inside :cffi-grovel-file
2016-09-16T16:54:42Z pipping: wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter that was causing the problem here
2016-09-16T16:57:04Z PuercoPop: pipping: From the line information it is the depends-on of the test-system, https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors/blob/fd3d9f96cc218b159997482279b5b47fa0e593b3/static-vectors.asd#L32
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2016-09-16T17:05:19Z PuercoPop: btw pipping thanks for your work ASDF, keep it up!
2016-09-16T17:05:37Z pipping: PuercoPop: :)
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2016-09-16T17:20:08Z pipping: PuercoPop: might we worth mentioning that if you did away with the defsystem for the test suite what you'd be getting is:
2016-09-16T17:20:10Z pipping: Error while trying to load definition for system static-vectors from pathname /home/pipping/static-vectors/static-vectors.asd: static-vectors does not support this Common Lisp implementation!
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2016-09-16T17:21:22Z PuercoPop: pipping: that is the 1.8 version afaiu, I'm at 1.6
2016-09-16T17:22:12Z PuercoPop: like I mentioned before the error I would expect is problem loading the code, not the asdf definition (or a run-time error)
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2016-09-16T17:23:16Z pipping: sorry, missed that somehow.
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2016-09-16T17:43:27Z pipping: PuercoPop: do you haven maven installed?
2016-09-16T17:44:32Z PuercoPop: pipping: I have no idea. How do I check that? My Java-foo is weak
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2016-09-16T17:45:56Z pipping: `which mvn`
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2016-09-16T17:47:48Z PuercoPop: pipping: I don't have it installed
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2016-09-16T19:05:19Z pipping: PuercoPop: never mind maven; that's annoying, too, but not the issue here it seems
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2016-09-16T20:02:18Z akkad: Xach: is there a way to easily mirror all the QL stuff? I'll be afk for a week and wanted to have it locally copied
2016-09-16T20:02:43Z Xach: akkad: for a specific dist version? or everything ever published?
2016-09-16T20:03:00Z Xach: akkad: for the former, i use: ql-dist::(map nil 'ensure-installed (provided-systems t))
2016-09-16T20:03:05Z Xach: for the latter, no easy way
2016-09-16T20:03:12Z akkad: perfect. thanks
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2016-09-16T20:04:37Z pipping: also, ql-test:install-all-quicklisp-provided-systems
2016-09-16T20:05:01Z Xach: What provides ql-test?
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2016-09-16T20:09:21Z pipping: it's e.g. here: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/frideau/ql-test
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2016-09-16T21:00:33Z Cthulhux: if i want to traverse user-defined directories recursively: is cl-fad still the way to go?
2016-09-16T21:00:59Z rpg: Cthulhux: I think CL-FAD is pretty comprehensively superseded by UIOP
2016-09-16T21:01:26Z Cthulhux: oh :/
2016-09-16T21:01:26Z rpg: [if there's anything UIOP doesn't do better now, I'd like to know what it is.]
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2016-09-16T21:02:56Z Cthulhux: where is uiop's current filesystem documentation? quickdocs has 404
2016-09-16T21:03:06Z emaczen: How do I double the number of rows in an array?
2016-09-16T21:03:27Z rpg: Cthulhux: sigh. I don't know that UIOP has documentation at all :-(
2016-09-16T21:03:45Z rpg: It should grow a manual as a companion to the ASDF manual, but it has not yet.
2016-09-16T21:03:57Z Cthulhux: rpg, so i already found what makes it worse. without documentation it's pretty much useless :/
2016-09-16T21:04:25Z rpg: Cthulhux: right, but CL-FAD has dangerous bugs in it, so ... choose your poison.
2016-09-16T21:04:30Z pipping: Cthulhux: that's quite the exaggeration.
2016-09-16T21:04:49Z Cthulhux: pipping, how to use a library without having any documentation about it?
2016-09-16T21:04:56Z Cthulhux: rpg, i thought it's maintained?
2016-09-16T21:05:21Z rpg: I've been meaning to swipe the SBCL docstrings-to-manual to bootstrap UIOP docs, but who has the time for everything?
2016-09-16T21:05:27Z pipping: Cthulhux: it's not a thousand-file beast. It has flat hierarchies, few files, descriptive names.
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2016-09-16T21:12:48Z jasom: Cthulhux: every single exported function ought to have a docstring, and on top of that they are sorted into package by subject; I just do e.g. uiop/pathnames: TAB and then look at the doc strings of any function that sounds like it might do what I want.
2016-09-16T21:13:31Z Cthulhux: trying to guess which function does what might lead to missed opportunities.
2016-09-16T21:13:55Z jasom: it occasionally does
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2016-09-16T21:17:11Z jasom: (do-external-symbols (s :uiop/pathname) (format t "~A:~%~A~%~%" s (documentation s 'function)))
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2016-09-16T21:18:42Z jasom: oh, I polled #lisp about this before, but thoughts on using + earmuffs for psuedo-constants? e.g: (defparameter +foo+ "This string never changes")
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2016-09-16T21:20:57Z pipping: that can generate warnings, no?
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2016-09-16T21:22:02Z axion: rpg: there is a pretty huge performance penalty with uiop compared to cl-fad for at least 1 function that I reported to Fare a couple months ago.
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2016-09-16T21:22:52Z pipping: axion: do you happen to know if that ever manifested in a fix or a bug report or how did you 'report' it?
2016-09-16T21:23:00Z rpg: axion: Would you consider reporting that to the launchpad ASDF bug tracker?  I don't think anyone but Fare knows about it
2016-09-16T21:23:15Z rpg is slower than pipping at the keyboard
2016-09-16T21:23:40Z axion: pipping: by a lengthy discussion with Fare in #lisp. He wanted to know my github name to give credit, but unless I'm following the wrong repo, I haven't seen a commit since
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2016-09-16T21:24:05Z PuercoPop: Cthulhux: there is a readme that describes UIOP's modules and there is docstrings. There is no more documentation, Fare didn't seem to think it was neccesary
2016-09-16T21:24:25Z PuercoPop: axion: that bug was fixed iirc
2016-09-16T21:24:30Z pipping: axion: do you happen to know when that was (so that i can look it up on public logs) or have logs yourself?
2016-09-16T21:24:33Z axion: PuercoPop: link?
2016-09-16T21:24:42Z axion: pipping: grepping logs, sec
2016-09-16T21:25:25Z axion: pipping: June 9th
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2016-09-16T21:26:02Z PuercoPop: axion: It is in the asdf mailing list. I don't have it at hands. But I remember Fare wrote about it to the ml, something about symlinks and verifying twice if the symlink was already followed
2016-09-16T21:26:15Z pipping: PuercoPop: regarding your asdf-on-abcl issue btw: the fact that there's no #+abcl for impl and you thus get a :pathname with no argument is worrying. easye suggested that that might confuse asdf to such an extent that it'll give the :depends-on error message that's complete bogus
2016-09-16T21:26:19Z axion: Yes, that is correct
2016-09-16T21:26:46Z axion: PuercoPop: except it doesn't matter if there are symlinks. It still does more work than needed
2016-09-16T21:27:01Z pipping: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/asdf-devel/2016-June/005296.html ?
2016-09-16T21:27:02Z PuercoPop: (now that gmane is gone I can't search ml easily)
2016-09-16T21:27:02Z rpg: PuercoPop, axion : symlinks and CL are a nightmare, because there's nothing in the standard to dictate whether you follow them or not, nor any requirement that an implementation either do something sensible with them, or ignore them.
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2016-09-16T21:27:57Z pipping: PuercoPop: http://asdf-devel.common-lisp.narkive.com allows for searching
2016-09-16T21:31:01Z pipping: > dim: oh, then uiop:directory-files might be all you need
2016-09-16T21:31:06Z pipping: > axion: except that it is VERY slow
2016-09-16T21:31:12Z pipping: > dlowe: the big time sucker here is remove-duplicates being called with :test pathname-equal, which is expensive
2016-09-16T21:31:17Z pipping: > axion: It's roughly 150 times slower than CL-Fad with a dir of 10k files
2016-09-16T21:31:21Z pipping: that's from http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2016-06/lisp-2016.06.09.txt
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2016-09-16T21:33:36Z PuercoPop: unfortunately I gtg. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
2016-09-16T21:34:09Z axion: Nice to know it's been fixed. I should rerun my naive benchmark now and compare the results
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2016-09-16T21:35:13Z pipping: now if this doesn't convince you to subscribe to asdf-devel I don't know what will...
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2016-09-16T21:36:46Z axion: I found the old test I ran: http://paste.lisp.org/display/326227
2016-09-16T21:36:50Z rpg: Looks like the filtering only happens in the case of logical pathnames.
2016-09-16T21:37:33Z rpg: If you call this with a logical pathname, it might be very slow, but logical pathnames are such a poor fit for modern directories, that I wouldn't encourage doing that anyway.
2016-09-16T21:38:19Z pipping: As Fare said in this context, "If you use LPNs, you deserve to lose [..]" ;)
2016-09-16T21:38:45Z jasom: LPNs look sooo appealing when you first see them.  Then you discover they are unusable and become sad.
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2016-09-16T21:40:11Z Cthulhux: hm.
2016-09-16T21:40:27Z rpg: jasom: Typically you make this discovery moving from one implementation to another.  Some try to DWIM them, some don't
2016-09-16T21:41:07Z rpg: When I used Allegro exclusively, since they just extended the standard quietly, I thought they were neat.  Then I started using SBCL and... they weren't
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2016-09-16T21:41:30Z axion: Hmmm, it's still slow
2016-09-16T21:42:34Z pipping: axion: which lisp are you on?
2016-09-16T21:42:42Z axion: sbcl
2016-09-16T21:42:56Z pipping: axion: and which version of sbcl?
2016-09-16T21:43:21Z axion: 1.3.6
2016-09-16T21:43:49Z axion: How do I get the asdf version loaded?
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2016-09-16T21:43:56Z pipping: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/How-do-I-detect-the-ASDF-version_003f.html
2016-09-16T21:44:09Z pipping: unless you manually upgrade asdf you're still on 3.1.5 which doesn't have the fix
2016-09-16T21:44:37Z axion: Ah, ok.
2016-09-16T21:44:57Z pipping: in fact, the latest official release of asdf is from 3.1.7, which is from march. so you'd even have to go to something rather bleeding edge for a fix
2016-09-16T21:45:00Z axion: That would explain why it's still 150.06075 times slower
2016-09-16T21:46:26Z axion: Anyway, glad that got fixed. I just noticed Fare pushed a few months of commits to github recently.
2016-09-16T21:46:51Z axion: That imo is a pretty significant performance issue I couldn't let go by unreported
2016-09-16T21:49:08Z pipping: I'e just created 1000 files and run uiop:directory-files on sbcl 1.3.9
2016-09-16T21:49:22Z pipping: before the fix: 0.346 seconds of real time
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2016-09-16T21:49:29Z pipping: after the fix: 0.012 seconds of real time
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2016-09-16T21:50:33Z pipping: If I do the same with 10000 files:
2016-09-16T21:50:41Z pipping: before the fix: (hah, I'm not that patient!)
2016-09-16T21:50:44Z pipping: after the fix: 0.142 seconds of real time
2016-09-16T21:50:46Z axion: Cna you compare the after fix with cl-fad:list-directory?
2016-09-16T21:50:49Z pipping: looks approximately linear
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2016-09-16T21:51:53Z pipping: axion: approximately the same
2016-09-16T21:52:37Z rpg: In my humble experience, CL-FAD was less extensively tested on Lisp implementations than UIOP, which is why I gave it up.
2016-09-16T21:52:39Z axion: Nice. So how often is asdf usually updated in sbcl or ql?
2016-09-16T21:53:19Z pipping: on sbcl: very rarely. I think they've been shipping 3.1.5 since since 1.2.15.
2016-09-16T21:53:42Z rpg: Xach has also been conservative in updating, I believe.
2016-09-16T21:54:19Z pipping: axion: but asdf is supposed to be upgradable. you can run one version and switch to a newer one on the fly
2016-09-16T21:54:21Z rpg: I have tried to keep ASDF stable enough that new releases have been mostly unambiguously better (i.e., bugfix releases).
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2016-09-16T21:54:43Z pipping: axion: if you use cl-launch e.g. it's as simple as checking out a recent asdf in ~/common-lisp/asdf
2016-09-16T21:54:50Z foom: sbcl typically only updates when someone pesters a maintainer to do so.
2016-09-16T21:54:54Z rpg: I think that wasn't always true in the "heroic age" of ASDF 3, but now it should be quite stable
2016-09-16T21:55:15Z pipping: (depending on how recent the asdf that you start with is, you may or may not get away with other directories as well)
2016-09-16T21:55:36Z axion: I feel like a newbie having never upgraded asdf nor know how, though I never really had a need.
2016-09-16T21:56:18Z pipping: axion: ideally, it should be just 'there', and you shouldn't have to worry about it.
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2016-09-16T21:56:46Z axion: I don't really need the fix now, so I'll just wait til 3.1.5 goes away
2016-09-16T21:57:17Z pipping: the directory-files issue is sufficiently severe that it renders the function almost unusable.
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2016-09-16T21:59:45Z axion: indeed
2016-09-16T21:59:53Z Cthulhux: ha, i've read that asdf v3 is not compatible with mocl because mocl was stalled. oO
2016-09-16T22:00:07Z rpg: Cthulhux: what's mocl?
2016-09-16T22:00:20Z pipping: rpg: a proprietary ios/mac-only lisp
2016-09-16T22:00:29Z Cthulhux: pipping, also: android.
2016-09-16T22:00:44Z rpg: Oh, yes, I remember hearing about that.
2016-09-16T22:00:55Z Cthulhux: mobile lisp makes me curious.
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2016-09-16T22:01:05Z pipping: Cthulhux: so I'm not sure what you're saying: has mocl stalled or not?
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2016-09-16T22:01:32Z Cthulhux: pipping, ASDF thinks it is stalled according to the web
2016-09-16T22:01:38Z Cthulhux: but i don't think it is
2016-09-16T22:01:39Z Cthulhux: :S
2016-09-16T22:01:47Z pipping: Cthulhux: mocl keeps being mentioned in the context of cross-compilation; that it'd profit if asdf could do that.
2016-09-16T22:02:09Z foom: Anyone want to add cross-compilation support to sbcl? :)
2016-09-16T22:02:16Z pipping: Cthulhux: you'll have to be more precise than 'according to the web' -- first time I'm hearing it's allegedly stalled
2016-09-16T22:02:42Z Cthulhux: foom, android support for sbcl would be awesome. a mcclim GUI on my smartphone please
2016-09-16T22:02:57Z Cthulhux: pipping, uhm... wait. :D
2016-09-16T22:03:18Z rpg: Cthulhux: The good news is that it runs McClim.  The bad news is that it's on fire ;-)
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2016-09-16T22:03:46Z foom: Cthulhux: I meant being able to compile for an arm target from a x86-64 host. Even if both are linux, that'd be nice to be able to do.
2016-09-16T22:04:26Z Cthulhux: ah
2016-09-16T22:04:31Z Cthulhux: pipping: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/
2016-09-16T22:04:43Z Cthulhux: "unmaintained" like corman and mcl
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2016-09-16T22:05:14Z Cthulhux: or is it just "asdf is unmaintained for these platforms"?=
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2016-09-16T22:06:24Z pipping: mcl != mocl!
2016-09-16T22:06:44Z Cthulhux: pipping,  	cormanlisp genera mocl scl
2016-09-16T22:07:09Z pipping: oh, indeed.
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2016-09-16T22:12:32Z pipping: [..] Also note that mocl only supports a heavily modified variant of ASDF 2, and will require robust cross-compilation support to be added to ASDF 3 before it is actually supported [..]
2016-09-16T22:13:48Z Cthulhux: :(
2016-09-16T22:14:02Z rpg: It's not clear to me that cross-compilation support even makes sense for ASDF.
2016-09-16T22:14:24Z rpg: ASDF maintains the integrity of the running lisp image by keeping a consistent set of code loaded into it.  That's not even a thing for cross-compilation.
2016-09-16T22:14:57Z pipping: Cthulhux: worth noting: wikipedia says "initial release: 2013", "stable release: 14.05 / May 6, 2014"
2016-09-16T22:15:00Z rpg: Now that I think of it, cross-compilation for common-lisp makes my head hurt.  What happens to COMPILE-TIME execution.
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2016-09-16T22:15:22Z Cthulhux: pipping, hm, i was hoping they'd be more successful.
2016-09-16T22:15:23Z pipping: Cthulhux: if it was first released in 2013 and the latest release is from 2014, especially in the mobile device world, I'd say it actually /has/ stalled
2016-09-16T22:17:45Z pipping: copyright at the bottom of the page: 2015; not activity on any ticket in over a month
2016-09-16T22:17:50Z pipping: -t
2016-09-16T22:18:43Z Cthulhux: :(
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2016-09-16T22:18:59Z Cthulhux: a pity. i'd like to have a Windows version of that.
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2016-09-16T22:26:20Z pipping: that doesn't get said a lot
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2016-09-16T22:28:28Z jasom: rpg: sbcl can cross-compile itself, fwiw.  Obviously the standard doesn't define semantics of cross-compilation, but neither does it define the semantics of threading.
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2016-09-16T22:28:53Z rpg: I think threading is less of an extension than cross-compiling, TBH.
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2016-09-16T22:29:24Z rpg: I suppose you just do the compile-time execution into a sandbox on the compiling host....?
2016-09-16T22:29:43Z jasom: cross-compile-file could work just like compile-file but generate a fasl for a different target.
2016-09-16T22:29:55Z rpg: but it still seems like you have to simultaneously load code into the compiling host
2016-09-16T22:30:04Z rpg: at the same time you are compiling code for the remote host
2016-09-16T22:30:24Z jasom: yeah, to do anything at all interesting you would have to.
2016-09-16T22:30:47Z jasom: *or* require that  macros, plus some other stuff be already defined on the host
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2016-09-16T22:32:20Z jasom: In the specific case of sbcl, it only targets a subset of lisp (namely that needed to compile sbcl), compiles code that is aware it is being cross-compiled, with appropriat reader-macros to make things work.
2016-09-16T22:33:55Z jasom wonders if it would be possible to use a purifying GC to let precompiled images of sbcl run with W^X and use the interpreter at runtime for everything else.
2016-09-16T22:35:18Z pipping: jasom: I think there were some thoughts on how to make sbcl entirely W^X compatible only the other day in #sbcl
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2016-09-16T22:46:43Z jasom: is it possible to disable slimes checking of matching parentheses?  I have a file that I know is correct, but slime can't figure out due to read macros
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2016-09-16T23:25:51Z jasom: well my workaround was to add a |(?!x)x to the end of my branch to make an even number of | characters... ugly but works for now.
2016-09-16T23:26:41Z pipping: ouch
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2016-09-16T23:46:21Z Cthulhux: one of the reasons why i regularly switch back to plaintext mode
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2016-09-16T23:46:36Z Cthulhux: the automatic bracket thingy is.. not sophisticated.
2016-09-16T23:46:38Z Xach: regularly? wow!
2016-09-16T23:47:10Z Cthulhux: at least when working with lisp
2016-09-16T23:47:18Z Cthulhux: the c++ and python modes are OK ;-)
2016-09-16T23:49:08Z Xach: I write lisp a lot but haven't seen too many paren issues.
2016-09-16T23:49:41Z Cthulhux: yup, i know. i'm happy that you do :D
2016-09-16T23:50:20Z Cthulhux: maybe i should just write more lisp so i know better when i need more parens in the first place.
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2016-09-16T23:50:52Z raydeejay: are you using paredit?
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2016-09-16T23:51:46Z Cthulhux: yes i do.
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2016-09-17T00:11:00Z cromachina: eventually you stop seeing parens altogether
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2016-09-17T03:50:47Z lexicall: hello? how can i get this code to run? (let ((fn (lambda (x) (funcall #'fn (+ x 1)))))
2016-09-17T03:50:47Z lexicall:   (funcall #'fn 1)) for some reason I cannot use labels. so do I need something like letrec?
2016-09-17T03:51:17Z lexicall: (let ((fn (lambda (x) (funcall #'fn (+ x 1))))) (funcall #'fn 1))
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2016-09-17T03:55:44Z lexicall: i can't use LABELS because i don't want it to expand to lambda. I defined another one called "lambda/d" and added some features to the original lambdsa.
2016-09-17T03:55:46Z lexicall: lambda
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2016-09-17T04:08:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-09-17T04:08:38Z beach: lexicall: I don't understand why you can't use LABELS.
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2016-09-17T04:15:34Z drmeister: Hi beach
2016-09-17T04:15:42Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2016-09-17T04:16:42Z drmeister: I'm trying to load an 11 million atom molecular structure into Cando - I ran into problems with the boehm GC.  In its default configuration it doesn't like going over 8.5 GB.
2016-09-17T04:18:47Z drmeister: At the time, every atom required 296 bytes (C++ class).
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2016-09-17T04:20:08Z beach: Can't you just change the configuration?
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2016-09-17T04:20:48Z drmeister: 8.5GB/11M = 775 bytes per atom - that's not unreasonable given the additional objects that go with each atom (1-4 bonds)
2016-09-17T04:21:42Z beach: And these days it is not that much memory, in case you need to buy some more.
2016-09-17T04:21:53Z drmeister: Not really.   I spent some time today reducing the size of some of the fields to their minimum reasonable size and reordering the fields in the class so that there were no empty spaces due to alignment requirements.
2016-09-17T04:22:07Z drmeister: I got it down to 200 bytes - now I'm trying again.
2016-09-17T04:22:37Z drmeister: Well, the problem is I'll have to install the boehm library as source code and figure out how to compile it to handle more memory.
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2016-09-17T04:23:23Z drmeister: I thought it would be better to optimize the atom class layout first.
2016-09-17T04:23:37Z drmeister: It failed at after loading 99% of the structure.
2016-09-17T04:24:03Z drmeister: So if I reduce the size of the structure to 66% of what it was - it should fit.
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2016-09-17T04:25:33Z drmeister: This is one of the reasons I'm doing this hybrid C++/CL approach.  I can hand optimize the layout of these critical classes and the values are all laid out next to each other with no boxing.
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2016-09-17T04:27:46Z drmeister: This is an exercise to see if it can handle a really big structure. I learned (1) The Boehm GC has compile time limits built into it (2) Yes it can handle it.
2016-09-17T04:28:13Z beach: Congratulations!
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2016-09-17T04:29:39Z drmeister: I say I can handle it because I get to 99% and it dies.  That means I'm close.   If I got to 5% and it died - well then I'd be in a different situation.
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2016-09-17T04:30:50Z drmeister: The entire structure reader is written in Common Lisp.  It runs really nicely.  It takes about 2 hours to load - and I think there is plenty of room for optimization.
2016-09-17T04:32:08Z drmeister: I'm getting really excited about the idea of generating SSA code for optimized arithmetic for non-linear optimization.
2016-09-17T04:33:51Z beach: It is possible that SSA is overrated, though.
2016-09-17T04:33:53Z drmeister: Give the code a function. (1) it carries out automatic differentiation to the analytical first and second derivatives. (2) remove common sub expressions and convert the expressions into a optimized linear sequence of arithmetic. (3) Compile that to native code and hook it into a non-linear optimizer.
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2016-09-17T04:34:55Z beach: Sounds good.  And it probably does not depend on SSA.
2016-09-17T04:35:27Z drmeister: Given what you said in the past - granted.  But here it makes sense to just build a linear sequence of instructions that store intermediate results and use them further down the sequence.
2016-09-17T04:35:47Z beach: Sure.
2016-09-17T04:37:42Z drmeister: This has probably been done before.  I currently do it in Mathematica and generate C code. It would be nice to have it all integrated into Cando so I can add functions to Cando's force-field.
2016-09-17T04:38:41Z beach: Symbolic differentiation is quite easy, so it shouldn't be too hard.
2016-09-17T04:39:27Z drmeister: Yeah, it's the optimization of the expressions that are generated that is interesting.
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2016-09-17T04:39:57Z drmeister: To maximize speed and minimize errors in the result.
2016-09-17T04:40:11Z beach: I see.
2016-09-17T04:40:39Z drmeister: Given how tricky floating point values can be.
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2016-09-17T04:41:37Z drmeister: The idea of using JIT code generation for scientific programming is really intriguing me.
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2016-09-17T04:44:16Z drmeister: There are these perceptions in computational chemistry that some numerical code is faster than other numerical code. I wonder why the time consuming functions can't be identified by profiling and then written in such a way that they can be optimized to perfection.
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2016-09-17T04:46:20Z drmeister: I know for my force field calculations it is about reordering things to minimize reciprocal and square root operations.
2016-09-17T04:46:51Z beach: Sounds like you might transform the domain of computational chemistry.
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2016-09-17T04:48:23Z drmeister: The code  was all hand written in Fortran in the 70's and 80's.  It's good stuff.  But I wonder if it couldn't be more efficient if you get it into an intermediate representation where you can mess around with it and mutate it while ensuring correctness.
2016-09-17T04:49:38Z beach: That is entirely possible.  Especially since processors have changed a lot since then.  What was good code at the time may no longer be.
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2016-09-17T04:55:48Z drmeister: Ok, thanks for the insight.
2016-09-17T04:56:19Z drmeister: It looks like the static analyzer is going to run now to figure out the layout of this optimized Atom_O class.
2016-09-17T04:56:22Z drmeister: I'm off to bed.
2016-09-17T04:56:30Z beach: 'night drmeister.
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2016-09-17T05:26:54Z jasom: drmeister: what's the status of MPS?
2016-09-17T05:26:59Z jasom: oh, just missed him :(
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2016-09-17T06:05:12Z Bike: jasom: i believe it's working but like half as fast
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2016-09-17T06:26:57Z xantoz: drmeister: speaking about using JIT for optimizing scientific programming: there's also been some research on using machine learning to model the optimization \of computer programs; in particular scientific
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2016-09-17T10:26:54Z aries_liuxueyang: hello
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2016-09-17T10:29:11Z beach: Hello aries_liuxueyang.
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2016-09-17T10:30:59Z aries_liuxueyang: beach: Do you use org-mode?
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2016-09-17T10:31:21Z beach: Not much.
2016-09-17T10:32:13Z aries_liuxueyang: oh, Here, Why I don't see the todolist in the agenda view. http://picpaste.com/emacs-agenda-qrT7nAwH.png I got this using `M-x org-agenda' then press `a'
2016-09-17T10:32:37Z beach: That sounds like a question for #emacs.
2016-09-17T10:32:46Z aries_liuxueyang: yeah.
2016-09-17T10:32:54Z pillton: Press t.
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2016-09-17T10:35:06Z aries_liuxueyang: pillton: Press t doesn't work, see: http://picpaste.com/emacs-agenda-t-cNN4rHvE.png
2016-09-17T10:36:53Z pillton: Oh right. C-h f org-agenda-files RET
2016-09-17T10:37:11Z pillton: Sorry. C-h v org-agenda-files RET
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2016-09-17T10:39:23Z aries_liuxueyang: pillton: It works, Thank you so much.
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2016-09-17T10:40:13Z pillton: No worries. I like org mode.
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2016-09-17T10:43:27Z aries_liuxueyang: pillton: what if the org-agenda-files contain more than one files?
2016-09-17T10:43:49Z aries_liuxueyang: If I `M-x  org-agenda' which one does it choose for agenda-view?
2016-09-17T10:44:09Z pillton: It goes through them all.
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2016-09-17T10:45:29Z aries_liuxueyang: what does it mean?
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2016-09-17T10:46:51Z pillton: aries_liuxueyang: http://orgmode.org/guide/Agenda-Views.html#Agenda-Views
2016-09-17T10:47:32Z aries_liuxueyang: Oh, I will read the document. Thanks.
2016-09-17T10:49:38Z pipping: What do I need to do to obtain the list of type-constrained signatures for each method by the same name?
2016-09-17T10:50:28Z pillton: All of this information is stored in the generic function object.
2016-09-17T10:50:44Z pipping: pillton: how do I get that object?
2016-09-17T10:50:46Z pillton: Can you expand on "list of type-constrained signatures" please?
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2016-09-17T10:50:57Z pipping: well, e.g. if I (3 lines coming):
2016-09-17T10:50:59Z pipping: (defgeneric foo (x))
2016-09-17T10:51:04Z pipping: (defmethod foo ((x fixnum)) (format nil "got a fixnum: ~a" x))
2016-09-17T10:51:08Z pipping: (defmethod foo ((x string)) (format nil "got a string: ~a" x))
2016-09-17T10:52:01Z pipping: I'd like to get something like '((fixnum)) ((string))).
2016-09-17T10:52:17Z pillton: Oh right.
2016-09-17T10:52:34Z pillton: #'foo or ensure-generic-function will get you the generic function object.
2016-09-17T10:52:53Z pillton: mop generic-function-methods
2016-09-17T10:52:54Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-methods.html
2016-09-17T10:53:44Z pillton: mop method-lambda-list
2016-09-17T10:53:44Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-lambda-list.html
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2016-09-17T10:56:19Z Grue```: (mapcar 'sb-mop:method-lambda-list (sb-mop:generic-function-methods #'foo))
2016-09-17T10:56:24Z pipping: okay. so on sbcl, (sb-mop:generic-function-methods #'foo) appears to do sort of what I was hoping fr
2016-09-17T10:56:42Z Grue``` is now known as Grue`
2016-09-17T10:57:20Z pipping: there's no platform-independent way to get that info, though? meh :/
2016-09-17T10:57:41Z Grue`: does closer-mop have it?
2016-09-17T10:58:00Z pillton: There is a system called closer-mop which tries to provide a consistent meta object protocol API.
2016-09-17T10:58:23Z pillton apologises for the tautology. 
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2016-09-17T11:08:27Z pipping: yes, (closer-mop:generic-function-methods #'foo) works, too, on the platforms that I tested. sweet.
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2016-09-17T11:22:49Z pipping: pillton: apparently I meant to say 'specialized lambda list' in mop-speak
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2016-09-17T11:25:59Z pillton: mop method-specializers
2016-09-17T11:25:59Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-specializers.html
2016-09-17T11:26:08Z pillton: I think that is what you require.
2016-09-17T11:26:27Z pillton: It has been a while since I used the MOP.
2016-09-17T11:26:37Z pipping: yes, I've dug through the documentation myself now :)
2016-09-17T11:27:44Z pipping: specializers -- /An/ list of specializers. meh
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2016-09-17T11:54:49Z francogrex: hi if one has a list like (a b c d ...) and want to group by 2 doing something like (loop for (a b) on places collect (list a b)) ... but that would not skip so end uo with (a b) (b c) (c d) what I want is (a b) (c d) ...
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2016-09-17T11:55:24Z beach: francogrex: use BY #CDDR
2016-09-17T11:55:43Z francogrex: ah ok yes thanks
2016-09-17T11:55:44Z beach: (loop for (a b) on places by #'cddr
2016-09-17T11:56:20Z francogrex: indeed that does it
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2016-09-17T11:59:09Z ggole: Watch for b being nil if the list is of odd length
2016-09-17T11:59:23Z pipping: pillton: here's what I ended up with: http://paste.lisp.org/display/326302#1
2016-09-17T11:59:32Z pipping: pillton: quite happy with that. thanks
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2016-09-17T12:01:09Z pillton: Great. What are you trying to do out of curiosity?
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2016-09-17T12:03:01Z pipping: Fare and I were debugging a failing test on asdf yesterday that was related to constraints on the type of an argument of a generic function.
2016-09-17T12:03:25Z pillton: class, not type.
2016-09-17T12:03:40Z pipping: yes, that
2016-09-17T12:04:21Z scymtym: pipping: depending on how general you want this to be, note two things: 1. not all specializers are classes (e.g. (eql :foo)) 2. for more complicated lambda-lists, not all elements have corresponding specializers. ALEXANDRIA:PARSE-LAMBDA-LIST can help getting only the mandatory parameters
2016-09-17T12:04:25Z pipping: there was an erroneous declaim at the other end of the source code and I noticed I had no idea how to debug such a problem... e.g. get an overview of what methods lisp is even considering
2016-09-17T12:04:35Z francogrex: ggole: yes I make sure first that my list length is even
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2016-09-17T12:05:25Z pillton: pipping: You know you can do (describe #'print-object) ? Or M-x slime-inspect RET #'print-object RET ?
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2016-09-17T12:05:42Z pipping: pillton: the fun part was that e.g. CCL ignored the declaim and did not raise an error when you called the function with an argument which there was a valid defmethod for but that contradicted the declaim
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2016-09-17T12:07:54Z pipping: scymtym: thanks. I wouldn't put the code into anything meant for more than debugging like this anyway but it's good to know about its shortcomings
2016-09-17T12:09:10Z pillton: pipping: The problem you describe is one of the downsides of CLOS' generic functions. Any analysis of a generic function is global.
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2016-09-17T12:11:13Z pipping: darn. If I had known about (describe #'foo), I could've done away with this whole endeavour
2016-09-17T12:11:22Z pipping: oh well. what's learnt is learnt.
2016-09-17T12:11:56Z pillton: Oh a fellow British English speaker.
2016-09-17T12:12:50Z pipping: pillton: I try! But I fail just as much as I succeed, unfortunately ;)
2016-09-17T12:12:58Z raydeejay: is there any other proper way to spelt "learnt"?
2016-09-17T12:13:17Z pillton: I think it is learned in the US.
2016-09-17T12:14:03Z pipping wonders what the first rule of the 'club of the obvious' is
2016-09-17T12:14:05Z _death: I learned something.  Something was learnt.
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2016-09-17T12:18:51Z pillton: pipping: The MOP is worth learning. Its design (the object, syntax and glue layers) is worth understanding.
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2016-09-17T12:24:46Z pillton: In fact, the issue of global analysis could be mitigated if systems used the object layer only.
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2016-09-17T12:46:17Z des_consolado: Hey sorry I'm having a horrible time with ParEdit, here's the code I'm trying to change: https://gist.github.com/thomasodot/1c9c3b656d8f7e5467a67830c0eb4879
2016-09-17T12:46:39Z des_consolado: There needs to be an extra parenthesis on the end of line 5 and I guess one less off of line 7
2016-09-17T12:48:07Z des_consolado: Yeah that's right. So I just need to work out how the hell to tell ParEdit to stop being so tight up about it.
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2016-09-17T12:49:08Z raydeejay: when I get frustrated with those things, I disable paredit, fix it, then enable it again
2016-09-17T12:49:34Z des_consolado: Oh. Yeah maybe I should do that.
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2016-09-17T12:51:04Z raydeejay: without doing that, C-S-<right arrow> is probably what you want
2016-09-17T12:53:07Z raydeejay: or, um, not... I should learn all those keys too :D
2016-09-17T12:54:03Z pipping: pillton: what do you mean?
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2016-09-17T13:00:53Z des_consolado: raydeejay: my emacs doesn't seem to pick up C-S at all. If I do C-h k and then C-S right-arrow it doesn't pick that up but then if I keep C-S held and start mashing the other arrows i get a help for just C-<up>
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2016-09-17T13:13:30Z raydeejay: S would be shift, but it's not bound to anything particular (I just imagined it), it just does C-<right arrow>
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2016-09-17T15:48:23Z pipping: turns out, while 'asdf' might be a good enough name for a piece of software, #asdf is not a good name for a channel
2016-09-17T15:48:32Z pipping: receives far too much spam.
2016-09-17T15:52:51Z edgar-rft: pipping: try #another-system-definition-facility where probably nobody would want to type such a long name to join, so you'll never get spam. Problem solved.
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2016-09-17T16:14:01Z pipping: feels lispier, too. or is it more lispy? what's more proper and handsomer here?
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2016-09-17T16:18:51Z raydeejay: I'd go with lispier, like happier and saliter
2016-09-17T16:18:59Z raydeejay: saltier, even
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2016-09-17T16:25:01Z raydeejay: here's another pearl: "Make the change easy, then make the easy change." — Kent Beck
2016-09-17T16:25:10Z raydeejay: wrong lisp channel :D
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2016-09-17T18:42:16Z pipping: yikes. logical pathnames... here we go
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2016-09-17T18:42:43Z pipping: so, apparently I want something like #p"sys:;code" to access the 'code' system directory of allegro cl
2016-09-17T18:43:20Z pipping: that's a pathname object that doesn't refer to a directory yet, right? how would i directory-ise it?
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2016-09-17T18:47:14Z pipping: #p"sys:;code;" appear to work; is that it?
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2016-09-17T18:51:52Z pipping: ah. uiop:ensure-directory-pathname. yay.
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2016-09-17T19:11:10Z raydeejay: um, is there something like alexandria:plist-hash-table but hash-table-alist?
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2016-09-17T19:14:15Z Bike: yes. there is alexandria:hash-table-alist.
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2016-09-17T19:14:45Z raydeejay facepalms
2016-09-17T19:14:57Z raydeejay: apparently, functions hide from me past 2am :D
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2016-09-17T19:28:23Z pipping: raydeejay: there's a cron job on common-lisp.net just for that.
2016-09-17T19:29:18Z raydeejay: and on my slime too, it seems
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2016-09-17T20:20:36Z pierpa: someone knows how to specify an external format using utf-8 and lf line terminators in Allegro?
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2016-09-17T20:27:04Z DougNYC: Okay, I feel stupid, but how do I get fixed-precision integer math out of Common Lisp? :) E.g., given two lisp integer numbers within the realm of X-1 to -X (e.g., 32767 to -32768 for signed 16-bit), how do I operate on them such that they stay in that range as if they were two's compliment 16-bit numbers?
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2016-09-17T20:29:17Z antoszka: DougNYC: https://github.com/froydnj/nibbles ← does that look useful to you?
2016-09-17T20:29:43Z DougNYC: I'll take a look, thanks antoszka
2016-09-17T20:29:51Z antoszka: Available via quicklisp, too.
2016-09-17T20:30:02Z pierpa: (logand x #xFFFF]
2016-09-17T20:30:10Z DougNYC: Can't use quicklisp (yet?) on my platform.
2016-09-17T20:30:33Z antoszka: Well, in that case you can get the library manually (hopefully).
2016-09-17T20:31:08Z DougNYC: Yep, I can do that, source is in github, antoszka :)
2016-09-17T20:31:15Z antoszka: Cool.
2016-09-17T20:31:36Z DougNYC: I used the logxxx and boole operations in my signed/unsigned conversions already pierpa, thanks
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2016-09-17T20:42:29Z pipping: pierpa: not sure but would (compose-external-formats :crcrlf :utf-8) be dos-style and (compose-external-formats :crlf :utf-8) unix style?
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2016-09-17T20:42:51Z pipping: pierpa: the docs are a bit confusing about crlf and crcrlf
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2016-09-17T20:43:58Z DougNYC: pierpa I think is saying you can just do your math normally in CL, then use (logand x #xffff). And I think he's right.
2016-09-17T20:44:08Z DougNYC: At least for SBCL 1.3.9
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2016-09-17T20:48:12Z pierpa: pipping: the docs are mightly confusing :)
2016-09-17T20:48:12Z pipping: pierpa: nvm, I think what you want is (compose-external-formats :e-cr :utf-8)
2016-09-17T20:48:25Z pierpa: DougNYC: yes, that's what I was meaning
2016-09-17T20:48:33Z pierpa: hmm
2016-09-17T20:48:38Z pierpa: why :e-cr?
2016-09-17T20:48:42Z pierpa: but let me try
2016-09-17T20:49:43Z pierpa: their unicode handling looks like something out of IBM
2016-09-17T20:50:39Z pipping: [..] The :e-cr external-format converts ascii `carriage return' to/from #\Newline [..]
2016-09-17T20:51:04Z pipping: although I have yet to understand the sentence after that: [..] Composing this external-format with a "crlf-base" external-format effectively turns this into an external-format for the Macintosh line-ending convention [..]
2016-09-17T20:51:35Z pipping: because that suggests that one should be doing (compose-external-formats :e-cr (crlf-base-ef :utf-8)) which doesn't work, though
2016-09-17T20:52:34Z pierpa: there's no carriage returns around
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2016-09-17T20:53:55Z pierpa: I mean, I'm not producing them, and I don't want them in the file I'm writing to
2016-09-17T20:54:23Z pierpa: same for reading back the file content :)
2016-09-17T20:54:52Z pierpa: this is trivial in any other implementations...
2016-09-17T20:56:06Z pjb: emacs 25.1 is out: it can load dynamic libraries now!
2016-09-17T20:56:55Z knobo: great! :)
2016-09-17T20:57:13Z knobo: Even though I've been using emacs 25 for a while now.
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2016-09-17T21:11:05Z pierpa: FWIW, it can be done using EXCL:EOL-CONVENTION. Couldn't find a way to do it without using this functon of theirs. This is crazy.
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2016-09-17T21:14:00Z pipping: pierpa: huh?
2016-09-17T21:14:13Z pierpa: what is not clear?
2016-09-17T21:14:13Z pipping: pierpa: I don't think excl:eol-convention doesn't help you here at all
2016-09-17T21:14:28Z pierpa: no, it does exactly what I need
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2016-09-17T21:15:31Z pipping: okay. could you take a minute to explain what precisely it is that you're trying to do then?
2016-09-17T21:15:50Z pierpa: only, there shouldn't be the need to use a proprietary function to do things which can be done using standard functions, if implemented properly.
2016-09-17T21:16:11Z pierpa: I'm trying to write and read files encoded in utf-8 with lf as line terminators
2016-09-17T21:16:40Z pipping: and this should work both on *nix and windows, I take it
2016-09-17T21:16:46Z pierpa: yes
2016-09-17T21:17:28Z pipping: you open the file with (with-open-file (s name :external-format :utf-8) ...) and then call (eol-convention s)?
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2016-09-17T21:18:04Z pierpa: yes, was just copying this...
2016-09-17T21:18:22Z pierpa: (WITH-OPEN-FILE (O "/tmp/foo.lisp" :DIRECTION :OUTPUT :EXTERNAL-FORMAT :UTF8)
2016-09-17T21:18:22Z pierpa:                      (SETF (EXCL:EOL-CONVENTION O) :ANYNL-UNIX) ...)
2016-09-17T21:18:22Z pierpa:  
2016-09-17T21:18:49Z pierpa: (or :unix instead of :anynl-unix]
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2016-09-17T21:20:39Z pipping: okay. didn't now eol-convention was setf-able.
2016-09-17T21:21:22Z pipping: know*
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2016-09-17T21:23:29Z pierpa: I didn't even know eol-convention existed :)
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2016-09-17T21:24:49Z pipping: (with-open-file (o "/tmp/foo.lisp" :direction :output :external-format (compose-external-formats :crlf :utf-8) :if-exists :supersede) (format o "foo~%"))
2016-09-17T21:25:22Z pipping: That'll write dos-style newlines even on linux
2016-09-17T21:25:39Z pierpa: here's where they talk about it: http://franz.com/support/documentation/current/doc/iacl.htm#newline-1
2016-09-17T21:26:31Z pierpa: yes, but I couldn't find an ext.format :lf analogous to :crlf.
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2016-09-17T21:28:17Z pierpa: I think they are making a mountain out of a mole hill
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2016-09-17T21:31:53Z shrdlu68: I've just built an sbcl stand-alone executable and it dies with an error advising me to check ulimit on a remote machine.
2016-09-17T21:32:27Z shrdlu68: They're both AMD64s, with fairly the same ulimit values, so I'm stumped.
2016-09-17T21:36:32Z pipping: pierpa: okay, i surrender. this is insane.
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2016-09-17T22:22:32Z mordocai: If I am conditionally loading systems (and therefore packages), how do I get a function that is using a package that only sometimes exist to compile successfully? Currently i'm getting the compile time error that the package doesn't exist. Using sbcl.
2016-09-17T22:23:39Z pierpa: pipping: I told you so! :D
2016-09-17T22:23:59Z mordocai: The idea is that I want to load and use slynk but only if I call start-dev instead of just start.
2016-09-17T22:25:12Z raydeejay: find-package ?
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2016-09-17T22:26:21Z pierpa: you're getting a read-time error?
2016-09-17T22:27:41Z _death: asdf-system-connections? if it's still relevant
2016-09-17T22:27:45Z mordocai: pierpa: Yeah, I think so
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2016-09-17T22:28:07Z mordocai: Yeah, read error
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2016-09-17T22:30:37Z PuercoPop: mordocai: you can use uiop:symbol-call to try to call a function that may not exist (even the package it is in might not exist)
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2016-09-17T23:14:13Z phoe: Can I tell ASDF to compile all files it finds in a given directory upon loading a system? Something like (:file "folder/*") wildcard.
2016-09-17T23:14:26Z mordocai: PuercoPop: Trying that, thanks
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2016-09-17T23:17:30Z pipping: (that'll signal an error when the function doesn't exist, though)
2016-09-17T23:18:27Z pipping: you'll probably want (and (fboundp 'pkg:fun) (uiop:symbol-call :pkg :fun))
2016-09-17T23:18:46Z pipping: (unless there's a better way I'm not aware of)
2016-09-17T23:19:10Z mordocai: pipping: PuercoPop: For my particular use case (running slynk but only loading it sometimes) it works fine without the function check, since slynk will "always" have create-server.
2016-09-17T23:19:21Z mordocai: Good to know to use fboundp though if I need it
2016-09-17T23:22:57Z PuercoPop: mordocai: glad it was useful
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2016-09-18T00:26:16Z rpg: phoe: Just saw your question: no you cannot use wildcards in ASDF.
2016-09-18T00:27:39Z rpg: I have some doubts about whether that would even be A Good Thing, and anyway, since lisp doesn't have reasonable globbing, it might well not do what you want (you can get "all files of type" but not much better).
2016-09-18T00:27:59Z rpg: You could probably make your own subclass of MODULE that would do this, though.
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2016-09-18T01:22:04Z gendl: emacs 25.1 is released. Has anyone used it with Slime yet?
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2016-09-18T02:35:54Z mordocai: Following https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms#note-about-slime doesn't work with sly, the output is going to the sly window and any input in the separate terminal ends up being interpreted by sly not ncurses. Is this likely a sly specific issue? Is there a workaround?
2016-09-18T02:36:05Z mordocai: Using cl-charms from quicklisp
2016-09-18T02:37:58Z mordocai: If it matters, I am using uiop:run-symbol to run slynk:create-server as discussed a couple hours ago
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2016-09-18T02:54:00Z mordocai: Full example of what i'm doing found here: https://gitlab.com/mordocai/forever-game-roguelike/blob/master/src/internal.lisp#L64-70.
2016-09-18T02:54:21Z mordocai: I just found it seems to work if ncurses is initialized before sly connects, but not if it is after.
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2016-09-18T04:28:37Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: ping
2016-09-18T04:29:31Z PuercoPop: mordocai: you could ask Joao about it :D
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2016-09-18T04:34:58Z PuercoPop: mordocai: have you tried starting up Slynk from the terminal and connection w/ sly-connect?
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2016-09-18T05:17:08Z switchy: so I'm reading practical common lisp, and it says you often see expressions like: (setf foo (delete nil foo))...how is that different from (delete nil foo)? isn't the point of delete to be recycling?
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2016-09-18T05:17:35Z White_Flame: the head of the list might change
2016-09-18T05:17:48Z White_Flame: consider deleting the first element, and what cons cell "foo" should end up pointing to
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2016-09-18T05:18:16Z switchy: ahhh, that makes perfect sense. thanks
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2016-09-18T05:20:10Z White_Flame: so really, the usage interface is exactly the same as the non-destructive version, (setf place (operation place)), so the destructive vs non-destructive one is a drop-in decision based on optimization possibility
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2016-09-18T05:25:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-09-18T05:40:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach
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2016-09-18T06:29:56Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: pong
2016-09-18T06:29:59Z jackdaniel: hey o/
2016-09-18T06:30:15Z beach: Hello jackdaniel!
2016-09-18T06:30:31Z jackdaniel: hey beach :)
2016-09-18T06:31:33Z jackdaniel: I'm refactoring ECL's compiler a bit to be able to embrace sicl as an alternative (long way ahead right now, but every road has its beginning)
2016-09-18T06:31:56Z beach: Sounds like a very good idea.
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2016-09-18T06:32:54Z jackdaniel: the main motivation is to have separated backend (bytecodes, c/c++, something else) from the compilation and optimizations
2016-09-18T06:34:39Z beach: What backends do you have right now?  C and bytecode?
2016-09-18T06:34:58Z jackdaniel: C, C++ and bytecode, but bytecode doesn't benefit from the optimization pass
2016-09-18T06:35:06Z beach: I see.
2016-09-18T06:35:07Z jackdaniel: because it's not part of the compiler infrastructure
2016-09-18T06:35:12Z jackdaniel: right now it's semi-monolithic design (two passes - optimizations and translation to C/C++)
2016-09-18T06:35:43Z jackdaniel: at some point of time I will want to ask you about some protocol choices
2016-09-18T06:35:54Z beach: Sure.  I'll be around.
2016-09-18T06:36:04Z jackdaniel: thanks
2016-09-18T06:39:11Z beach: For what it's worth, I think the Cleavir AST and the Cleavir HIR code are very useful intermediate representations.
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2016-09-18T06:43:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: How do I insert the contents of a variable into a buffer in emacs?
2016-09-18T06:43:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: (via slime)
2016-09-18T06:46:56Z jackdaniel: beach: yes, I agree, but I don't want to make a revolution here at the moment
2016-09-18T06:47:13Z beach: Sure, I can understand that.
2016-09-18T06:47:23Z jackdaniel: the current compiler has it's own AST/HIR representation and it would be tricky to replace it
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2016-09-18T06:49:31Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: C-u C-c C-e
2016-09-18T06:49:33Z jackdaniel: insert variable
2016-09-18T06:49:42Z jackdaniel: (prompt in a proper place in a buffer)
2016-09-18T06:49:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is that a emacs variable or a cl one?
2016-09-18T06:50:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: cool, thanks
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2016-09-18T07:48:59Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: oi I was thinking that CLX#57 would be a good issue to start working on a conformance test-suite for CLX. We could either store known extents of some fonts or have a small program against xlib.h to compare outputs?
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2016-09-18T08:11:38Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: sounds like a good idea – I want first others to confirm, that we go with fiasco, so we can create a proper system for that
2016-09-18T08:12:22Z jackdaniel: I will be fully online this afternoon (~6h from now)
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2016-09-18T08:14:28Z PuercoPop: from the thread I think fiasco was the choice
2016-09-18T08:15:38Z jackdaniel: OK
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2016-09-18T08:25:05Z PuercoPop: found how to check when the server changes keyboard layout
2016-09-18T08:25:06Z PuercoPop: https://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/events/window-state-change/mapping.html
2016-09-18T08:25:14Z PuercoPop: MappingNotify events
2016-09-18T08:25:53Z PuercoPop: but I don't see an easy way to add the cache invalidation code to clx
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2016-09-18T08:28:26Z beach: There might be too much caching going on in CLX.
2016-09-18T08:29:10Z beach: Computers and networks are much faster these days, so it might be the opportunity to consider removing some caching in order to make the code simpler and to facilitate testing.
2016-09-18T08:30:07Z beach: I am not saying caching should systematically be removed; just that it might be worthwhile to do the math.
2016-09-18T08:34:20Z PuercoPop: beach: yes, sometimes I'd would like CLX to use more of CLOS to ease customization. But mapping the keyboard layout every keypress doesn't seem like a wise decision. I'll check how hard it would be to add it to the event loop.
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2016-09-18T08:35:52Z beach: A more CLOS-y CLX has been on my mind for some time.  And, yes, that particular cache may not be the right one to remove.
2016-09-18T08:37:47Z PuercoPop: for instance if we could change the display class returned by clx and process-event would be a generic function we could use a mixing for the user of clx to enable the (bugged) caching if he wishes
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2016-09-18T08:38:50Z PuercoPop: Btw, your student had a CLOS-y wrapper on top of CLX to handle events I've been meaning to adapt for general use
2016-09-18T08:38:59Z beach: A "mixin" you mean.  Yeah, stuff like that is interesting.
2016-09-18T08:39:16Z PuercoPop: beach: ups, yes a mixin
2016-09-18T08:39:21Z beach: What student is that?
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2016-09-18T08:40:33Z PuercoPop: I always forget, something H. The one that wrote Eclipse
2016-09-18T08:40:45Z beach: Ah, Iban Hachondo.
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2016-09-18T08:41:06Z PuercoPop: yes
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2016-09-18T11:14:22Z pipping: mordocai: "uiop:run-symbol"?
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2016-09-18T11:16:22Z saolof: I'm getting a namespace conflict when loading the iterate package with quicklisp
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2016-09-18T11:17:16Z FDXZ: first time here.
2016-09-18T11:18:21Z pipping: saolof: do you have a log that you could paste somewhere?
2016-09-18T11:20:56Z saolof: Ah, selected the "resolve conflict" option in the debugger
2016-09-18T11:21:13Z saolof: the conflict seems to be about the iterate symbol
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2016-09-18T11:21:43Z saolof: oh, and the namespace conflict was when using (use-package 'iterate) after loading it
2016-09-18T11:23:23Z saolof: I'm wondering what the previous iterate did? Apart from the iterate package I have a vanilla SBCL install
2016-09-18T11:23:29Z raydeejay: you tried to use iterate before having it loaded
2016-09-18T11:23:44Z saolof: ah, that makes sense
2016-09-18T11:23:45Z raydeejay: that's where the magical symbol came from
2016-09-18T11:25:27Z saolof: Does the SBCL repl maintain an image even after you shut it down and restart?
2016-09-18T11:25:59Z pipping: no
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2016-09-18T11:26:55Z saolof: By restart I mean restarting emacs & slime, might not be the same thing
2016-09-18T11:28:28Z saolof: Since my previous attempts to use iterate without having it loaded was a few days earlier
2016-09-18T11:28:30Z raydeejay: or you could type a comma in the repl and choose restart inferior lisp, should be enough
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2016-09-18T11:29:38Z raydeejay: then try loading iterate again, first thing, and you'll see there's no error :)
2016-09-18T11:30:45Z saolof: nope, still getting a conflict between iterate:iterate and common-lisp-user::iterate
2016-09-18T11:30:58Z saolof: when using use-package
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2016-09-18T11:32:25Z raydeejay: then you have something somewhere that is creating an ITERATE symbol in the CL-USER package
2016-09-18T11:34:30Z des_consolado: Hey I want to write a function that takes two arguments, x and y, and makes a list of y amount of x's, so if it was thefunction (4 3) it would return (4 4 4), coming from a regular programming background this would seem to require some kind of while/for loop, is that the case here too?
2016-09-18T11:35:52Z saolof: But let's see, in the iterate package, iter and iterate do the same thing right?
2016-09-18T11:37:33Z saolof: and regarding the loop there are a few options, for example (loop for i from 1 to y collect x)
2016-09-18T11:38:56Z saolof: in your example, (loop for i from 1 to 3 collect 4) returns the output you wanted
2016-09-18T11:39:51Z saolof: though I'm sure there is a cleaner way to do it
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2016-09-18T11:42:12Z raydeejay: clhs make-list
2016-09-18T11:42:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_lis.htm
2016-09-18T11:43:06Z des_consolado: Cool, thanks.
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2016-09-18T11:43:36Z des_consolado: Also in the slime repl is there a similar command to bash's C-u or C-c to just abort what is currently being typed and start typing something new?
2016-09-18T11:44:38Z raydeejay: C-c C-u slime-repl-kill-input
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2016-09-18T11:59:22Z saolof: alternatively, C-c C-c kills anything that's running in the repl for me
2016-09-18T11:59:32Z saolof: but that may just be in my setup
2016-09-18T12:02:26Z White_Flame: in my slime, C-c C-c will bring up an abort, but Q'ing out of that will leave the line in edit as-is, with the cursor still on it
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2016-09-18T12:14:52Z lexicall: i wonder why shouldn't the standard DEFUN and LAMBDA be able to deconstruct their argument lists?
2016-09-18T12:15:47Z lexicall: (defun plus ((x) y) (+ x y)) fails but (defmacro plus ((x) y) (+ x y)) is ok.
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2016-09-18T12:17:34Z |3b|: probably they didn'
2016-09-18T12:17:48Z |3b|: didn't think it was worth the performance hit to do so every time in functions
2016-09-18T12:18:10Z |3b|: but compilation can be relatively slow, and macros need to destructure a lot more than functions do
2016-09-18T12:18:29Z |3b|: you can always use destructuring-bind, or write a macro to do so for you
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2016-09-18T12:19:17Z |3b|: or macros were specified later and they didn't want to go back and change things already used by existing code
2016-09-18T12:19:30Z lexicall: that makes sense. i'd rather invent another lambda that does auto-deconstruction for me.
2016-09-18T12:20:49Z lexicall: thanks :)
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2016-09-18T12:26:30Z francogrex: hi in loop i would like to do smething like this: loop for ... while x AND if x do ... ? is it possible to place two conditions before the do execution?
2016-09-18T12:27:19Z |3b|: you can put any clauses you want
2016-09-18T12:27:46Z ggole: Even if you couldn't, surely you could just and two conditions with, uh, and?
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2016-09-18T12:27:55Z |3b|: WHILE X will terminate when !x though, so IF X after it doesn't do much
2016-09-18T12:28:22Z francogrex: no I mean while x and if y ... something else
2016-09-18T12:28:42Z francogrex: with AND let me see
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2016-09-18T12:29:13Z |3b|: (but note that there are limitations on which clauses can be in the 'initialization/stepping' part, so you can do FOR X ... WHILE X FOR Y ...)
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2016-09-18T12:29:23Z ggole: Something like (loop while foo if x collect z)?
2016-09-18T12:29:58Z francogrex: no
2016-09-18T12:30:10Z |3b|: termination tests are independent from conditionals, so you can combine them however you want
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2016-09-18T12:30:28Z francogrex: loop while line AND when (> (length line) 2) do ... => secondary clause misplaced at top level in LOOP macro: AND WHEN
2016-09-18T12:30:32Z |3b|: and you can nest conditionals, or use AND/OR/etc to build more complex conditions within a single conditional or termination test
2016-09-18T12:30:53Z raydeejay: forget about AND
2016-09-18T12:30:54Z |3b|: right, loop while line when ... do ...
2016-09-18T12:31:22Z |3b|: 'while line' is a termination test clause, 'when ...' is a conditional clause
2016-09-18T12:31:29Z francogrex: ok that was it then I should not use AND
2016-09-18T12:31:31Z francogrex: ok works
2016-09-18T12:31:32Z raydeejay: (LOOP FOR ... WHEN y DO f WHILE x)
2016-09-18T12:31:50Z francogrex: i prefer all cluases before the do
2016-09-18T12:31:57Z |3b|: DO is a clause :p
2016-09-18T12:32:03Z raydeejay: it's not really a matter of preference
2016-09-18T12:32:12Z |3b|: and you can have as many of those as you want to, so it isn't "the" do
2016-09-18T12:32:15Z raydeejay: moving the WHILE before the DO changes the meaning
2016-09-18T12:32:20Z |3b|: that too
2016-09-18T12:32:39Z |3b|: though the original had it before, so it is moving it after than changes the meaning :)
2016-09-18T12:32:47Z |3b|: *that
2016-09-18T12:32:51Z raydeejay: right
2016-09-18T12:32:52Z raydeejay: so
2016-09-18T12:32:56Z francogrex: yes that's what I wanted the meaning of a conditional before the do
2016-09-18T12:33:02Z raydeejay: (LOOP FOR ...  WHILE x WHEN y DO f)
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2016-09-18T12:33:08Z francogrex: yes
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2016-09-18T12:36:05Z g_l: Is there some way I could signal a sbcl process and not have it crash/exit?
2016-09-18T12:36:32Z g_l: I would like to send my SBCL a signal, and it to know to open a file when this occurs
2016-09-18T12:36:41Z g_l: but unfortunately, I have to do this from outside of the SBCL
2016-09-18T12:36:59Z |3b|: do you mean 'signal' as in 'unix signals' or just 'communicate' in general?
2016-09-18T12:37:06Z g_l: the latter.
2016-09-18T12:37:35Z g_l: I need to be able to do whatever it is from midnight commander, but it doesnt' matter so long as it works..
2016-09-18T12:38:07Z g_l: the idea is to have midnight commander call a shell script which writes a file to /tmp/open-some-file.txt, lisp slurps the file and opens it in climacs.
2016-09-18T12:38:49Z g_l: so I can browse and use midnight commander like dired until flexi-trivial-dired is up to snuff (right now, it is not even close, crashes on some file names etc)
2016-09-18T12:39:28Z |3b| would probably try a named pipe or something (assuming something sufficiently unix-like)
2016-09-18T12:39:45Z g_l: idk what that is, looking into it
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2016-09-18T12:40:09Z g_l: and yes, this is a linux-like
2016-09-18T12:40:11Z g_l: gentoo
2016-09-18T12:41:10Z pipping: g_l: you could probably use SIGUSR1 for that
2016-09-18T12:41:31Z |3b|: can you catch that easily from user code in sbcl?
2016-09-18T12:41:33Z g_l: pipping: I tried to do that with TRIVIAL-SIGNALS
2016-09-18T12:41:38Z pipping: https://github.com/guicho271828/trivial-signal should allow you to write that even portably
2016-09-18T12:41:41Z pipping: oh -.-
2016-09-18T12:41:49Z g_l: pipping: it crashes the SBCL process
2016-09-18T12:41:50Z |3b| wasn't sure about that, if you can that would be a reasonable choice too
2016-09-18T12:42:06Z g_l: wiat
2016-09-18T12:42:25Z g_l: unless I mistyped kill -10 <pid> as kill -9 10 <pid>
2016-09-18T12:42:26Z g_l: hm
2016-09-18T12:42:28Z g_l: one sec
2016-09-18T12:42:38Z g_l: (if I exit suddenly, I typed it fine last time)
2016-09-18T12:43:24Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-18T12:45:05Z |3b|: (for the named pipe idea, something like 'mkfifo /tmp/foo' in shell, then read #P"/tmp/foo" in lisp, and write to it from shell script)
2016-09-18T12:45:36Z g_l: |3d|: how does the IPC happen in that?
2016-09-18T12:45:44Z g_l: I need to communicate to an already running SBCL
2016-09-18T12:46:06Z sjl: finally figured out how to macroexpand iterate clauses reliably https://i.imgur.com/bkhUoCR.png
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2016-09-18T12:48:10Z g_l: pity.
2016-09-18T12:48:13Z raydeejay: g_l: a named pipe is like the pipe (|) in "ls | grep something"
2016-09-18T12:48:26Z g_l: raydeejay: right.
2016-09-18T12:48:39Z g_l: raydeejay: the problem being, I have a running stumpwm sbcl environment and need to signal it
2016-09-18T12:49:14Z raydeejay: so not your code
2016-09-18T12:49:39Z g_l: I suppose one way to do this would be to somehow read the output of the xterm midnight commander is running in (this is a sbcl xterm) and when it exits, use a special exit code to say "hey guy, read the file in /tmp/"
2016-09-18T12:49:49Z g_l: wait fuck no that won't work
2016-09-18T12:50:07Z g_l: unless I can tie a callback to an async shell process
2016-09-18T12:50:20Z g_l: raydeejay: idk what you mean by "not my code". it is all my code
2016-09-18T12:50:31Z g_l: raydeejay: the problem is that midnight commander is a cee program
2016-09-18T12:51:01Z g_l: and I just want to trick it into being climacs's dired until FTD has a few weeks of work sunk into it
2016-09-18T12:51:02Z pipping: g_l: wait, but stumpwm provides an executable that allows you to execute arbitrary lisp code in the running instance, no?
2016-09-18T12:51:07Z pipping: g_l: that would be far simpler
2016-09-18T12:51:13Z g_l: pipping: yeah, it does
2016-09-18T12:51:37Z pipping: so why go through signals and have stumpwm interpret the signal if you can just tell stumpwm directly what to do?
2016-09-18T12:52:18Z g_l: pipping: stumpwm starts an xterm using (stumpmw::run-shell-command "exec xterm -e mc --no-color")
2016-09-18T12:52:41Z g_l: pipping: the problem is that I can't signal/call my lisp process from the midnight commander I've just launched
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2016-09-18T12:53:36Z pipping: I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing
2016-09-18T12:53:42Z pipping: I mean this helper from stumpwm-contrib: https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm-contrib/blob/master/util/stumpish/stumpish
2016-09-18T12:53:51Z raydeejay: but you both just agreed that stumpwm provides an executable that blah blah blah...
2016-09-18T12:53:52Z pipping: you can call that from within xterm
2016-09-18T12:54:09Z pipping: or mc or whatevs
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2016-09-18T12:55:14Z g_l: pipping: this looks like exactly what I want.
2016-09-18T12:55:18Z g_l: pipping: thanks.
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2016-09-18T12:58:48Z g_l: pipping: this is exactly what I want.
2016-09-18T12:58:57Z g_l: I can't sh for anything, but thanks a million
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2016-09-18T13:10:18Z pipping: stumpwm is a lovely piece of software
2016-09-18T13:11:19Z pipping: (that's not a statement about the code quality, I've never taken a look; but sure is fun to use)
2016-09-18T13:11:25Z prole: +1
2016-09-18T13:11:41Z saolof: (loop for i from 1 to 10 for j from 1 to 5 collect (list i j)) returns a "zipped list" ((1 1) (2 2) (3 3) (4 4) (5 5)) instead of a "cartesian product", is there a way to loop over both variables instead of increasing both at the same time until one of them stops the loop?
2016-09-18T13:11:46Z prole: you feel like a leaf in the wind
2016-09-18T13:12:13Z saolof: other than nesting loop or iterate macros
2016-09-18T13:12:17Z prole: you feel like a rat inside the cheese room of a restaurant
2016-09-18T13:12:19Z pipping: that said, I've just come across https://github.com/stumpwm/paulownia by accident. interesting...
2016-09-18T13:12:29Z pipping: prole: heh
2016-09-18T13:12:38Z beach: saolof: You need nested loops for that.  Do you have anything against nesting?
2016-09-18T13:13:04Z prole: untine you fall on some ratpoison
2016-09-18T13:13:13Z saolof: ah no, was just wondering if there was something like list comprehensions in python or Haskell
2016-09-18T13:13:20Z ggole: Nesting is a bit clumsy in loop since they don't share things like collect
2016-09-18T13:13:29Z ggole: You can work around it easily enough.
2016-09-18T13:13:56Z beach: saolof: (loop for i from 1 to 10 append (loop for j from 1 to 5 collect (list i j)))
2016-09-18T13:14:01Z beach: Something like that [untested].
2016-09-18T13:14:56Z ggole: Actually it would be interesting to have something like (with-collect ...) and allow arbitrary lisp in the body
2016-09-18T13:14:58Z pipping: looks correct [tested]
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2016-09-18T13:20:42Z saolof: huh, the loop example works, but the naive translation into an iterate loop returns nil
2016-09-18T13:22:05Z pipping: ggole: I wouldn't be surprised if that existed
2016-09-18T13:22:24Z pipping: I see with-collection, with-collector, and other similar names when grepping quicklisp sources
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2016-09-18T13:22:38Z pipping: no time to check if those are something like that right now; back later
2016-09-18T13:22:53Z saolof: where append seems to be the culprit
2016-09-18T13:23:16Z saolof: actually, is there a function that flattens a list one level?
2016-09-18T13:23:28Z saolof: like concat in haskell
2016-09-18T13:24:28Z Mon_Ouie: (apply #'append lists)
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2016-09-18T13:27:29Z saolof: Ah thanks, that works, also found (concatenate 'list lists)
2016-09-18T13:27:58Z saolof: which would need apply too I guess
2016-09-18T13:29:35Z beach: saolof: Do you have anything against LOOP?
2016-09-18T13:30:11Z beach: Mon_Ouie: A better solution would be (reduce #'append lists :from-end t).
2016-09-18T13:30:12Z saolof: I actually really like having a declarative iterative construct, haven't seen anything like it elsewhere
2016-09-18T13:30:51Z saolof: I'm just mostly unfamiliar with it, it's sort of a full sublanguage
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2016-09-18T13:31:55Z beach: Mon_Ouie: If you use APPLY, you expose yourself to the possible limit in the maximum number of arguments to a function, and that limit can be fairly low.
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2016-09-18T13:32:19Z beach: Mon_Ouie: Furthermore, you need the :from-end t to avoid a quadratic algorithm.
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2016-09-18T13:45:15Z sjl: saolof: there's not really any nested iteration support in iterate unless you write it yourself, e.g. https://github.com/sjl/cl-losh/blob/master/losh.lisp#L976
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2016-09-18T15:09:10Z nilof: Do any lisp implementations implement the tail recursion modulo cons optimization?
2016-09-18T15:09:33Z beach: What does "modulo cons optimization" mean?
2016-09-18T15:10:23Z nilof: it's a generalization of tail recursion
2016-09-18T15:10:28Z ggole: I think one of the older ones did.
2016-09-18T15:10:35Z ggole: The language in which it is most common is Prolog.
2016-09-18T15:10:54Z ggole: (There's also a branch of OCaml which has TRMC.)
2016-09-18T15:11:12Z beach: In what way is it a generalization?
2016-09-18T15:11:50Z nilof: Instead of just having tail calls to another function with a set of arguments
2016-09-18T15:12:09Z ggole: Tail call optimisation makes constant space tail calls of (f x). TRMC makes constant space tail calls of (cons y (f x)).
2016-09-18T15:12:21Z nilof: you can have your function return a cons containing one result and a tail call
2016-09-18T15:12:38Z ggole: (Actually, it works for more constructors than just cons, but cons is the important one in Lisp.)
2016-09-18T15:13:00Z nilof: Haskell uses that to make foldr lazy iirc
2016-09-18T15:13:34Z ggole: My understanding is that lazy graph reducers have very different arrangements
2016-09-18T15:13:39Z ggole: eg, there's no stack in the first place
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2016-09-18T15:13:48Z jackdaniel:  pipping what is your handle on github?, 
2016-09-18T15:14:00Z jackdaniel: s/,//
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2016-09-18T15:14:45Z jackdaniel: nvm, found it
2016-09-18T15:15:19Z shka: yo
2016-09-18T15:16:43Z beach: nilof: How would such an optimization be implemented?
2016-09-18T15:18:57Z beach: I can imagine every function having a second entry point to be used when the value it returns will become the second slot of a CONS, but that would be highly specialized.
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2016-09-18T15:19:16Z ggole: I think I have the relevant paper sitting around.
2016-09-18T15:19:54Z ggole: beach: note that it is tail recursion modulo cons, not tail call modulo cons
2016-09-18T15:20:10Z beach: Ah, OK.  That might be easier.
2016-09-18T15:20:11Z ggole: The optimisation only applies for (mutually) recursive calls
2016-09-18T15:20:26Z beach: I understand.  I could probably figure out how that would work.
2016-09-18T15:20:29Z ggole: So you have a regular entry point and then one which takes a pointer with which to do the tail consing.
2016-09-18T15:20:42Z beach: Sure.
2016-09-18T15:21:25Z ggole: Part of the difficulty is tricks to avoid the write barrier cost which modern GCs tend to impose on mutation.
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2016-09-18T15:21:42Z ggole: You can do it, but there's a bit of complexity.
2016-09-18T15:21:50Z beach: Because you have to allocate the CONS cell first?
2016-09-18T15:21:57Z beach: ... and then mutate it?
2016-09-18T15:22:00Z ggole: Yes.
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2016-09-18T15:22:14Z ggole: And frequently there is a function call between those two events, which might GC.
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2016-09-18T15:22:58Z beach: Sure.  I can see how such a thing would be useful in a language without looping constructs.
2016-09-18T15:23:08Z ggole: There are two methods which I know of to make that work without the barrier.
2016-09-18T15:23:24Z beach: nilof: What made you ask that question in the first place?
2016-09-18T15:23:36Z ggole: The first is that you put a special value in the to-be-mutated part of the cons which indicates to the GC that this is about to be mutated.
2016-09-18T15:23:49Z ggole: And the GC places that location in the remembered set when it runs.
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2016-09-18T15:24:45Z ggole: The second is to fiddle around with stack maps to indicate pretty much the same information, but without the need for a special value.
2016-09-18T15:25:15Z nilof: ah, saw the first video in the SICP MIT course series
2016-09-18T15:25:17Z beach: Are those two techniques explained in the paper?
2016-09-18T15:25:30Z nilof: and noticed that one of the examples was tail recursive modulo cons
2016-09-18T15:25:50Z ggole: I don't think so. I think the paper predates generational GCs.
2016-09-18T15:25:58Z beach: nilof: SICP uses Scheme.  In Common Lisp you would use a looping construct instead of recursion.
2016-09-18T15:26:55Z beach: nilof: When you said "lisp implementations", did you mean "Common Lisp implementations" or implementations of other Lisp dialects too?
2016-09-18T15:27:25Z nilof: to give a slightly more general example: (defn mult-by-scalar (list scalar) (cons (*scalar (car list)) (mult-by-scalar (cdr list))))
2016-09-18T15:27:31Z beach: ggole: There could be something in the GC literature about it.
2016-09-18T15:27:34Z nilof: *defun
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2016-09-18T15:28:17Z ggole: Maybe. I know about it because I chat to the guy who did the OCaml TRMC patch.
2016-09-18T15:28:27Z beach: nilof: That would be (loop for element in list collect (* scalar element)) in Common Lisp.
2016-09-18T15:28:36Z nilof: right
2016-09-18T15:30:23Z nilof: basically the optimization means that the two would essentially compile to the same code, while in scheme without the optimization you'd be stuck with doing something tail recursive/using reduce and then reversing the result
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2016-09-18T15:32:27Z nilof: ...actually, now I'm curious about how collect is implemented
2016-09-18T15:32:56Z beach: By mutation probably.
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2016-09-18T15:33:45Z ggole: The implementor of loop gets to choose
2016-09-18T15:33:47Z beach: LOOP being a macro, most implementation would not even use any implementation-specific mechanism for it; just expand to the obvious code.
2016-09-18T15:35:52Z loke`: nilof: The typical implementtion of LOOP COLLECT keep track of two conses: The first one, and the last one. That makes appending to the end very fast.
2016-09-18T15:36:15Z beach: loke`: Modulo the mutation issue that ggole mentioned.
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2016-09-18T15:36:40Z loke`: beach: Modulo? You mean Minus, surely?
2016-09-18T15:37:23Z beach: I mean, the obvious implementation may not be that fast on modern architectures.
2016-09-18T15:37:44Z beach: loke`: And there is also the issue of the first element collected.  In the worst case, there may be a test in there too.
2016-09-18T15:38:31Z loke`: beach: I was just referring to how typical implementations do it (most of them are based on the same original implementation). Those keep an extra cons at the beginning which is dropped at the end.
2016-09-18T15:38:37Z beach: A smart implementation may detect that collect when unconditional and unroll the loop, or it may have two versions of the body; one for when the collected list is still empty and one when it is not.
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2016-09-18T15:39:11Z ggole: Or it could allocate a dummy cons and return its cdr at the end
2016-09-18T15:39:18Z beach: Can it?
2016-09-18T15:39:25Z ggole: I think so
2016-09-18T15:39:43Z loke`: ggole: That's what SBCL and friends do.
2016-09-18T15:40:01Z beach: That might work only if there is no INTO.
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2016-09-18T15:40:37Z ggole: For into, I suppose that you would have a dummy cons per collected-into variable?
2016-09-18T15:40:58Z beach: What if you do (print <info-var>) in the body of the loop?
2016-09-18T15:41:40Z ggole: Print the cdr of the dummy cons.
2016-09-18T15:42:14Z ggole: Actually, what does the spec say about the sate of those variables?
2016-09-18T15:42:15Z beach: Automatically?  Wow, sounds impossible.
2016-09-18T15:42:45Z loke`: beach: Well, that's what SBCL does.
2016-09-18T15:43:01Z loke`: The INTO variable is not the one it's collecting into. It's collecting into a special gensymmed variable.
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2016-09-18T15:43:27Z loke`: It then does a (setq into-var (cdr collecting-head))
2016-09-18T15:44:22Z beach: Whenever there is a reference to info-var?
2016-09-18T15:44:26Z beach: OK, that might work.
2016-09-18T15:44:28Z ggole: Does it stack allocate the conses?
2016-09-18T15:45:19Z loke`: beach: It seems to always set the into-var like that. I believe the optimiser will optimise away that assignment when it's not needed.
2016-09-18T15:45:36Z beach: Ah, yes, that might work too.
2016-09-18T15:45:39Z ggole: I see, I had in mind walking the code to replace the var. But of course you don't need that, just a binding.
2016-09-18T15:45:49Z beach: loke`: By the way, such an "extra cons" is usually referred to as a "sentinel" in the literature.
2016-09-18T15:45:52Z ggole: That's much saner.
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2016-09-18T15:47:06Z beach: Yes, very clever trick.
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2016-09-18T15:48:15Z beach: Oops, time to go fix dinner.
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2016-09-18T15:49:38Z loke`: I'm not sure I would ever want to implement the LOOP macro.
2016-09-18T15:49:54Z loke`: I'm probably not alone, which is why everybody uses the same basic implementation :-)
2016-09-18T15:50:07Z loke`: (except CLISP, funnily enough)
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2016-09-18T16:08:05Z beach: loke`: And SICL: http://metamodular.com/loop.pdf
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2016-09-18T16:08:22Z beach: loke`: You really need to come to ELS in the future. :)
2016-09-18T16:08:30Z loke`: beach: I do want to.
2016-09-18T16:09:03Z beach: You could combine it with a visit to your employer.  Paris and Brussels are not that far apart.
2016-09-18T16:09:23Z loke`: Primarily to get an opportunity to share beer with some of the Lisp greatest :-)
2016-09-18T16:09:41Z loke`: beach: Is the next ELS in Bruxelles?
2016-09-18T16:09:41Z beach: There is ample opportunity for that, yes.
2016-09-18T16:10:01Z lmj: Does anyone have Lispworks 7? I'd like to know what ASDF version is bundled with it. Command line is "lispworks -init -" and then (require 'asdf) (asdf:asdf-version).
2016-09-18T16:11:19Z beach: You might get a better answer from LispWorks.
2016-09-18T16:12:24Z lmj: Well there was a chance to find out immediately here.
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2016-09-18T16:13:18Z beach: On the other hand, people might not want to discuss it here.
2016-09-18T16:13:31Z lmj: The reason I ask is https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/17 -- it's so unfortunate that LW personal edition doesn't work with bordeaux-threads
2016-09-18T16:14:42Z lmj: I don't want to fork bordeaux-threads, but the maintainer doesn't seem to have users in mind
2016-09-18T16:15:13Z beach: That sounds very harsh.
2016-09-18T16:15:14Z loke`: Who is the BT maintatiner?
2016-09-18T16:15:37Z lmj: But look at the pull request; I don't know how else to phrase it.
2016-09-18T16:15:49Z loke` is very disappointed that googling for ELS does not give the proper ELS site on the first page of results.
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2016-09-18T16:16:10Z beach: loke`: Try "European Lisp Symposium"
2016-09-18T16:16:22Z loke`: beach: Yeah. I know :-(
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2016-09-18T16:16:35Z loke`: There is no info on the page. When and where will it be held?
2016-09-18T16:17:06Z beach: loke`: It might not be public yet.
2016-09-18T16:17:54Z lmj: loke`: the maintainer is sionescu, the person responding to that pull request. I know it sounds harsh, but I don't know what to make of this.
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2016-09-18T16:18:46Z beach: Very likely: Brussels 3-6 april.
2016-09-18T16:19:28Z loke`: Interesting.
2016-09-18T16:19:58Z loke`: That city has the awesomest beer in the world.
2016-09-18T16:20:03Z lmj: The ASDF features he uses cause those implementations to be broken out of the box, yet it is utterly trivial to avoid using those features.
2016-09-18T16:20:45Z beach: lmj: fe[nl]ix is maintaining Bordeaux threads voluntarily.
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2016-09-18T16:22:24Z beach: lmj: As he is pointing out, Bordeaux threads is free software and there are already not enough people pitching in.
2016-09-18T16:24:22Z lmj: beach: I don't want bordeaux-threads or anything dependent upon it (like lparallel) to be broken out of the box. That's my aim. I am pitching in by trying to fix that.
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2016-09-18T16:25:20Z lmj: beach: would you read the pull request and tell me if it's reasonable? I'd like a third opinion.
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2016-09-18T16:26:03Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: will this patch break your ASDF3 scripts in some way?
2016-09-18T16:26:53Z beach: lmj: I think I'll pass.  I know fe[nl]ix pretty well, and I respect his decisions about the software that he has accepted being the maintainer of.
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2016-09-18T16:28:13Z loke`: lmj: Did fenlix reply to your patch request and deny it?
2016-09-18T16:28:31Z lmj: loke`: https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/17
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2016-09-18T16:29:30Z loke`: OK, I think sionescu's points are quite valid.
2016-09-18T16:29:44Z loke`: Besides, I'm pretty sure LW supports ASDF3.
2016-09-18T16:30:17Z lmj: loke`: not personal edition, though
2016-09-18T16:31:33Z loke`: lmj: PE is pretty useless.
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2016-09-18T16:31:59Z loke`: I really cannot see any reason for its existence even.
2016-09-18T16:33:52Z nilof: alright, another new-to-CL question: #'f is short for (function f). Is there a similar shorthand for funcall?
2016-09-18T16:34:20Z Bike: nope.
2016-09-18T16:34:20Z loke`: nilof: No.
2016-09-18T16:34:33Z loke`: Funcall is just a function.
2016-09-18T16:34:45Z loke`: Nothing special about it.
2016-09-18T16:34:48Z jackdaniel: nilof: you can write one by yourself, but there isn't something out of the box
2016-09-18T16:34:53Z lmj: loke`: but someone who wants to use Lispworks will likely try it out with PE first. They'll see brokenness. I think that's very bad. And it's trivial to fix.
2016-09-18T16:35:12Z loke`: lmj: That's really LW's problem.
2016-09-18T16:35:21Z jackdaniel: loke`: function is function too :)
2016-09-18T16:35:50Z loke`: I don't think the open source community should bend over backwards to help LW not having to maintain their own software.
2016-09-18T16:36:05Z raydeejay: subtle
2016-09-18T16:36:05Z lmj: loke`: the user doesn't know that and doesn't care; he just see that shit is broken and won't bother.
2016-09-18T16:36:06Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-18T16:36:13Z loke`: jackdaniel: function is a special form though.
2016-09-18T16:36:47Z loke`: lmj: and then he'll move away from LW. LW loses a sale. Bo hoo.
2016-09-18T16:36:49Z lmj: loke`: I would agree if this required bending over backwards. We are on the same page about that. The actual fix, however, is utterly trivial.
2016-09-18T16:37:04Z jackdaniel: right, it is
2016-09-18T16:37:41Z loke`: lmj: I wouldn't know. I never looked at the actual fix. :-)
2016-09-18T16:37:43Z jackdaniel: (it is a special operator)
2016-09-18T16:38:30Z jackdaniel: I think that it's bad that the system definition format (and what can be used in such system definition) is a moving target
2016-09-18T16:38:45Z lmj: loke`: I'm willing to make trivial fixes in order to make things work. I don't care who's at fault, I just want the user to be happy.
2016-09-18T16:39:20Z loke`: lmj: OK, now I've looked at it. And it's a pretty ugly workaround. Besides, the next time this thing is changed, it might break again. No on eis testing it with ASDF2, and the maintainer don't want to have to bother with it. I have to agree with sionescu
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2016-09-18T16:40:40Z lmj: loke`: Note that it's just restoring the code that was there before. The "workaround" was how it worked for years and years before the recent changes to use the shiny new ASDF features.
2016-09-18T16:42:33Z loke`: lmj: Well, I'm not involved. I'm really not that interested in that at all. I just pointed out that his position is not unreasnable.
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2016-09-18T16:56:50Z lmj: loke`: I agree it's not unreasonable. But I think it's more reasonable to hold off using new features that cause breakage until the world catches up.
2016-09-18T16:58:21Z lmj: Given that the new features aren't actually needed, of course.
2016-09-18T17:02:04Z loke`: lmj: "the world" in this case is a well-known crappy product that LW themselves seems to have absolutely zero interest in maintaining. I can certainly see how annoying it would be to acommodate that product. In fact, if it was me I would at least momentarily consider not supporting it out of spite.
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2016-09-18T17:02:25Z loke`: Perhaps you should be glad I'm not the maintainer of this one :-)
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2016-09-18T17:05:01Z loke`: This all comes down to me feeling that LW PE is actively bad for the Lisp community.
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2016-09-18T18:10:47Z lmj: loke`: Well there's CLISP, too. Some probably consider it deprecated, but that's the view from the inside. Newcomers may be reading Land of Lisp and naturally start with CLISP, then encounter shit that's broken. Some things should be broken, but when it's effortless to avoid brokenness then I think we should do so.
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2016-09-18T18:18:55Z lmj: In the long view, I think it comes down to a matter of priorities. I put priority on the user getting things working with as little fuss as possible; anything else is secondary.
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2016-09-18T18:20:03Z raydeejay: where's the "as opposed to X"?
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2016-09-18T18:22:43Z lmj: As opposed to using new features that avoid a few lines of code.
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2016-09-18T18:24:57Z lmj: ... where the new features are what cause the breakage.
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2016-09-18T18:31:17Z nilof: The fact that (+ 1/7000000000000000000 10000000000000000000000) returns an exact expression is pretty damn awesome...
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2016-09-18T18:32:33Z nilof: expected to see some kind of overflow when I typed in, but I guess I just spent too much time in languages that don't do "the right thing"
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2016-09-18T19:54:53Z phoe: Hmmmm.
2016-09-18T19:55:37Z phoe: JPL-QUEUES's SYNCHRONIZED-QUEUE has an atomic EMPTY?, an atomic DEQUEUE, but does not have an atomic DEQUEUE-IF-EMPTY.
2016-09-18T19:56:01Z phoe: Blah.
2016-09-18T19:56:06Z phoe: DEQUEUE-IF-NOT-EMPTY.
2016-09-18T19:56:41Z phoe: Meaning, I can have (unless (empty? queue) (dequeue queue)) - but this is not atomic. Between EMPTY? and DEQUEUE calls, stuff can happen.
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2016-09-18T19:57:35Z phoe: So I can do one of two things.
2016-09-18T19:57:47Z phoe: First, hack it on the application level and use the dreaded SLOT-VALUE to fix this.
2016-09-18T19:58:28Z phoe: Second, fork JPL-QUEUES as it does not seem to be maintained, add the functionality, and ask Xach to Quicklisp the fixed version.
2016-09-18T20:01:24Z TMA: phoe: from a third party viewpoint the second option is strictly better
2016-09-18T20:01:55Z phoe: TMA: from every viewpoint, the second option is better.
2016-09-18T20:02:09Z phoe: I'm just trying to contact JPL to see whether he still maintains that, in which case I'll be able to upload a patch to him.
2016-09-18T20:02:28Z TMA: phoe: the dirty hack might be a tad faster
2016-09-18T20:02:46Z phoe: TMA: a fix in the official repo will take days to weeks, if I'm lucky.
2016-09-18T20:02:52Z phoe: the dirty hack, well, it's already working.
2016-09-18T20:02:57Z phoe: This might be the only upside.
2016-09-18T20:03:26Z TMA: phoe: [I am not arguing for it, just pointing a viewpoint which does not have the second option coming out as a clear winner.]
2016-09-18T20:03:59Z phoe: TMA: [Yep, you're right. That's a good counterargument.]
2016-09-18T20:04:03Z phoe: Brb - RL is calling.
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2016-09-18T20:28:48Z miky72: ciao
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2016-09-18T21:00:13Z phoe: Back.
2016-09-18T21:01:53Z superancetre: hi, does anybody have information on an update for  lisptick-> http://www.iqool.de/lispstick.html? the version on the website works, but its really old. I did download sbcl 1.3.9, and updated slime with the link on the website, but i get an error when launching emacs: READ error during COMPILE-FILE; Symbol "ENABLE-INTERRUPT" not found in SB-SYS package
2016-09-18T21:02:33Z superancetre: any idea how to fix this?
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2016-09-18T21:13:59Z phoe: superancetre: welp, Lispstick is *ancient*!
2016-09-18T21:14:25Z phoe: Lispbox is somewhat more fresh, https://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/
2016-09-18T21:14:45Z phoe: But then again - nothing beats a fresh install of SBCL, Quicklisp and Emacs.
2016-09-18T21:15:42Z phoe: I assume you're on Windows, right?
2016-09-18T21:16:11Z superancetre: phoe: thanks; i'll look that. I guess the fresh install is gonna be the solution yeah. I'm on ubuntu but i wanted to try this to have lisp at the university with me
2016-09-18T21:16:21Z phoe: Ubuntu.
2016-09-18T21:16:32Z phoe: http://www.jonathanfischer.net/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/
2016-09-18T21:16:46Z phoe: So I assume you don't have a laptop of your own.
2016-09-18T21:16:59Z phoe: At which point, you could carry your Ubuntu and Lisp everywhere.
2016-09-18T21:17:20Z phoe: Look at Lispbox - if that doesn't work, I'll try to help you make a portable Lisp environment.
2016-09-18T21:17:30Z superancetre: Yes that would be ideal but my loaptop did die 6months ago and i wait to get enough money
2016-09-18T21:17:58Z phoe: But then again.
2016-09-18T21:18:06Z phoe: Does your university have some sort of university accounts/profiles?
2016-09-18T21:18:13Z superancetre: phoe: thanks for the proposition and the help, i'll let you know if i need help
2016-09-18T21:18:29Z scymtym: superancetre: jasom mentioned an lispstick update a few days ago: http://ircbrowse.net/browse/lisp?q=lispstick
2016-09-18T21:18:30Z superancetre: phoe: yes indeed, i have an account there
2016-09-18T21:18:32Z phoe: If it does, you can just make a local installation of SBCL/Quicklisp/Emacs and have that loaded through the uni network.
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2016-09-18T21:18:46Z phoe: You can just setup it over there the normal way, no need for 100% portability.
2016-09-18T21:19:41Z phoe: scymtym: !!!!!
2016-09-18T21:19:45Z superancetre: phoe: yeah that might be good enough. thanks!
2016-09-18T21:19:46Z phoe: That's pretty big news.
2016-09-18T21:20:00Z phoe: Big enough to end up being published in the channel topic, I guess.
2016-09-18T21:20:01Z superancetre: scymtym: i'm gonna look right now, thanks!
2016-09-18T21:20:02Z phoe: Or at least CLiki.
2016-09-18T21:20:45Z scymtym: superancetre: no problem
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2016-09-18T21:21:37Z superancetre: scymtym: it works! :)
2016-09-18T21:22:26Z scymtym: superancetre: good to hear. you should thank jasom, he is here most of the time
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2016-09-18T21:25:13Z superancetre: scymtym: i'll try to catch him to thanks him then, thanks for your helpful tip!
2016-09-18T21:25:21Z superancetre: phoe: and thanks to you too!
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2016-09-18T23:50:55Z pipping: I'm playing around with bordeaux-threads right now. I've hardly dealt with locks before and I'd appreciate some feedback on whether I'm solving a problem in an asinine way (that's certainly what it feels like)
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2016-09-18T23:52:10Z pipping: I've written the code to be sbcl-specific in this case so that it's both self-contained and short
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2016-09-18T23:53:41Z pipping: I've got a list of processes that are running asynchronously. I'd like to be notified as soon as one of them finishes, then determine which one it was (for this example, its PID will serve as the identifier) and then kill all the other processes.
2016-09-18T23:55:07Z pipping: this is what i've got: http://paste.lisp.org/display/326501
2016-09-18T23:56:14Z pipping: what's especially weird is that condition-wait requires me to release a lock that in this case I don't see the need for, so that I'm creating and acquiring a dummy lock just for that...
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2016-09-19T00:19:34Z gendl: Hi, is there a conventional way to do something like mapcar, taking multiple sequence arguments, but have it continue until the longest one is consumed, rather than stopping at the end of the shortest one as with standard mapcar?
2016-09-19T00:20:56Z Bike: using what for the missing arguments?
2016-09-19T00:21:06Z Bike: but no, i don't think there's any convention
2016-09-19T00:24:14Z gendl: using nil's for the missing arguments.
2016-09-19T00:25:52Z gendl: I guess on way would be to go ahead and append NIL's to the end of any shorter lists, to make them all the same length, before doing the mapcar.
2016-09-19T00:25:56Z gendl: one* way
2016-09-19T00:25:58Z Bike: would be something like (defun mapmore (f &rest lists) (loop for l = lists then (mapcar #'cdr lists) for a = (mapcar #'car lists) until (every #'null lists) collect (apply f a)))
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2016-09-19T00:29:31Z gendl: hmm I have never really learned LOOP, will take a while to understand that one... looks legit though...
2016-09-19T00:29:56Z gendl: we have a bit of an unofficial directive to keep LOOP out of our codebase, just because of something I read in a Paul Graham book over 20 years ago...
2016-09-19T00:30:13Z Bike: you could rewrite it with do if you really wanted to.
2016-09-19T00:31:52Z pillton: Nah. tagbody.
2016-09-19T00:32:38Z pillton: Go on. Its Monday. Do something wild.
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2016-09-19T01:45:35Z mejja: why lisp is soo slow?
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2016-09-19T01:47:20Z pillton: Are such questions on your mind often?
2016-09-19T01:51:14Z mejja: maybe..
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2016-09-19T01:55:41Z pillton: You aren't sure?
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2016-09-19T01:57:21Z pierpa: usually it's slow because of bad algorithms
2016-09-19T01:57:58Z pillton: Oh. It is Eliza too?
2016-09-19T02:02:07Z mejja: according to the lisp expert on twitter im following it is unusable slow..
2016-09-19T02:02:57Z pierpa: then what are you doing here?
2016-09-19T02:04:23Z mejja: are you trolling me sir?
2016-09-19T02:05:07Z pierpa: no. honest question.
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2016-09-19T02:07:51Z mejja: may i ask why you are here?
2016-09-19T02:08:18Z pierpa: Sure. I'm here because I do things with Lisp
2016-09-19T02:08:52Z Bike: i mean, there are a few hundred people here, it would be kind of strange if it was an unusable thing
2016-09-19T02:12:03Z mejja: So is it true?
2016-09-19T02:12:31Z Bike: that was my subtle way of saying "obviously not"
2016-09-19T02:16:44Z mejja: the expert is saying lisp is like an old harley davidson a racetrack full of suzuki katanas..
2016-09-19T02:17:38Z Bike: none of us have any idea who your expert is. there is no reason to care about what you heard on the internet somewhere.
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2016-09-19T02:19:15Z mejja: xah lee is his name. (i guess all the smart kids these days are from china)
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2016-09-19T02:22:39Z Bike: ok. great. do you want to know something else?
2016-09-19T02:23:09Z mejja: yes please
2016-09-19T02:23:25Z loke: mejja: Xah is a famous idiot. He's banned from most forums and IRC channels for a reason.
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2016-09-19T02:33:29Z mejja: he seems legit to me..
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2016-09-19T02:42:24Z loke: mejja: He's been mostly infecting the Emacs community. You might want to check in on #emacs to see what people there have to say about him.
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2016-09-19T02:48:02Z mejja: sorry but I don't trust them.  (emacs is a known crypto commie channel)
2016-09-19T02:48:35Z Bike: are you being ironic
2016-09-19T02:48:41Z Bike: well, it's obnoxious to say either way
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2016-09-19T03:00:25Z loke: Bike: He's not ironic. He's trolling.
2016-09-19T03:00:36Z Bike: same shit
2016-09-19T03:00:59Z loke: I'd have to say that the trolling was pretty good initially, but after the emacs commant he lost all credibility.
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2016-09-19T03:04:27Z mejja: if institutionalized theft is not communism then what is? (and free software is theft for sure)
2016-09-19T03:06:14Z loke: mejja: When people call out the trolling, the trick is not doubling down. Instead, you should pretend that you'r ejust misunderstood and you should back off for a little while to let things calm down. Then you can switch into full-troll-mode again.
2016-09-19T03:06:40Z loke: I guess I'm getting old. Trolls were much better in the good old days.
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2016-09-19T03:07:32Z mejja: when was that? (i'm guessing back when xah lee was not banned? :)
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2016-09-19T03:08:00Z mejja: cheers from #scheme suckers..
2016-09-19T03:08:07Z loke: mejja: I honestly don't think Xah is a troll. He's just crazy/stupid.
2016-09-19T03:08:15Z loke: The era of good trolling was in the 90's.
2016-09-19T03:09:17Z PuercoPop: loke: even the word troll has become a little bit like OOP, used for so much things that it has lost all meaning. Here, even politicians use it to discredit their critics.
2016-09-19T03:09:29Z loke: PuercoPop: Yes, that's true.
2016-09-19T03:09:44Z jasom: superancetre: let me know if you have any issues with the lispstick
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2016-09-19T03:10:36Z loke: PuercoPop: a good troll (in its purest form) doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. I mean Tritter grew out of onscurity partly thanks to trolling.
2016-09-19T03:11:01Z loke: ...which arguably is a bad thing for society, but a good thing for twitter as a com0pany.
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2016-09-19T03:15:44Z PuercoPop: persona design around trolls :)
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2016-09-19T04:38:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-09-19T04:39:53Z loke: Hello beach!
2016-09-19T04:40:56Z loke: beach: How comfortable are you with CLIM:FORMATTING-TABLE?
2016-09-19T04:41:09Z beach: I have used it a few times.
2016-09-19T04:41:39Z loke: beach: I'm desperately trying to figure out how to best explain my issue with it... I think a drawing is best. :-)
2016-09-19T04:41:58Z beach: As I recall, there is some strange interaction between rows/columns on the one hand and PRESENT on the other hand.
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2016-09-19T04:48:08Z loke: beach: Here's an illustration of what I'm trying to do:
2016-09-19T04:48:08Z loke: i
2016-09-19T04:48:19Z loke: https://goo.gl/photos/J9QLS89iivGRxPxSA
2016-09-19T04:48:52Z loke: This is the code:
2016-09-19T04:49:20Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/contrib/potato-client-clim/src/messages.lisp#L147
2016-09-19T04:51:06Z beach: It looks like it ought to work.
2016-09-19T04:51:36Z beach: Oh, wait...
2016-09-19T04:51:37Z loke: beach: Yes, but how to achieve it?
2016-09-19T04:52:09Z superancetre: jasom: thx for the update on lispstick! I'll let you know for sure
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2016-09-19T04:54:29Z beach: loke: It ought to work.  I would have to play around with it and check my own code to give you a more precise answer.  But Monday mornings are crazy around here, so I am going to be busy for the next several hours.
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2016-09-19T04:56:56Z loke: beach: Are you suggesting that what I tried to do should, theoretically, be correct? If so, doesn't that suggest that there is a bug in clim?
2016-09-19T04:57:29Z beach: It does suggest that.
2016-09-19T04:57:37Z loke: beach: Thanks :-)
2016-09-19T04:57:53Z beach: But in order to be sure, I would have to investigate further.
2016-09-19T04:58:14Z beach: Or, we could ask jackdaniel who is paid to investigate things like that. :)
2016-09-19T04:58:40Z loke: beach: good point :-)
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2016-09-19T05:38:44Z phoe: Hey!
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2016-09-19T05:41:22Z phoe: I got a response from JPL. I'll be forking JPL-QUEUES to include my functionality.
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2016-09-19T07:04:47Z josteink: JPL? Nasa JPL?
2016-09-19T07:05:27Z otwieracz: no
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2016-09-19T07:17:33Z josteink: boring :)
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2016-09-19T07:18:40Z raydeejay: hah
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2016-09-19T07:56:14Z g_l: using "ip ad add 10.0.0.10/24" and "ip ad add 10.0.0.20/24"  I can get two computers to ping each other over an ethernet cable.
2016-09-19T07:56:37Z g_l: IE, they are both disconnected from wifi, and I use "ping 10.0.0.10" or "ping 10.0.0.20"
2016-09-19T07:57:10Z g_l: I'd like to translate this into netcat, with the ability to send an arbitrary string from A to B.
2016-09-19T07:57:31Z g_l: This, only as an intermediate step for getting usocket to talk over the ethernet cable and pipe sexprs across
2016-09-19T07:57:39Z g_l: pointers?
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2016-09-19T07:59:32Z phoe_: g_l: I suggest #networking
2016-09-19T07:59:38Z g_l: join #networking
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2016-09-19T08:00:16Z phoe_: g_l: I suggest /
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2016-09-19T08:05:43Z loke: IPv4 addresses. How quaint. Us modern people simply use the autoassigned IPv6 addresses.
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2016-09-19T08:07:33Z josteink: IPv4 will be around until "everyone" has IPv6
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2016-09-19T08:07:44Z josteink: and that wont happen until dual-stack networking works fine on all devices
2016-09-19T08:08:01Z josteink: (and for some reason my wife's iDevices all fail when I enable IPv4 IPv6 dual-stack on my home network)
2016-09-19T08:08:10Z josteink: so thanks to apple, I cant have IPv6
2016-09-19T08:08:11Z josteink: yay
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2016-09-19T08:09:23Z loke: josteink: How do they "fail"?
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2016-09-19T08:45:24Z josteink: loke: it seems DNS resolution goes wanky
2016-09-19T08:45:36Z josteink: causing infinite/failed lookups for servers
2016-09-19T08:45:46Z josteink: which means pretty much any network-dependenant apps experiences lock-ups
2016-09-19T08:46:13Z josteink: Since iPhones have no console I can pull up and run commands from, Im not sure -exactly- what goes wrong
2016-09-19T08:46:36Z josteink: infinite waits/failed lookups
2016-09-19T08:47:23Z raydeejay: IPv4 will be around for a long long time
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2016-09-19T08:57:06Z loke: josteink: You enable IPv6 and _DNS_ lookups fail? Does it work for your normal computers on your network?
2016-09-19T08:57:54Z josteink: loke: Im guessing its behaviour related to looking up both A and AAAA for the same hosts
2016-09-19T08:57:57Z josteink: I have no idea
2016-09-19T08:58:09Z josteink: I cant look inside black box apple products
2016-09-19T08:58:16Z josteink: And frankly I cant care to look more into it
2016-09-19T08:58:34Z josteink: Ive had enough fights with the wife with ("You dont care about my problems!!!") and lalalala
2016-09-19T08:58:46Z raydeejay: I hear a bell
2016-09-19T08:58:47Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-19T08:59:06Z josteink: Apple can go get bent
2016-09-19T08:59:09Z josteink: And I dont need IPv6 that much
2016-09-19T08:59:17Z raydeejay: it's not exactly like that but on those lines (fortunately, there's no Apple involved in my case)
2016-09-19T08:59:18Z josteink: So yeah welcome to compromise-valley
2016-09-19T08:59:38Z loke: When IPv6 works, it's pretty neat.
2016-09-19T08:59:44Z josteink: yeah I know
2016-09-19T09:00:00Z josteink: end to end connectivity, the end of obscure ports in your NAT and lalala
2016-09-19T09:00:10Z raydeejay: (when), otherwise NIL
2016-09-19T09:00:57Z loke: If you do bittorrent, it's remarkable how many IPv6 connections you end up with.
2016-09-19T09:01:23Z josteink: loke: would you be shocked to hear I dont really do much BT anymore?
2016-09-19T09:01:36Z loke: josteink: I've never done much of it.
2016-09-19T09:01:53Z loke: I fire it up if I need a movie or something. I don't watch much, so it's rare.
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2016-09-19T09:48:01Z solene: hello, I am trying to write a small irc client but I can't find a solution with threads. I need to wait for incoming messages and still allow user to send input
2016-09-19T09:48:11Z solene: is bordeaux-threads the only solution available for that ?
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2016-09-19T09:50:04Z |3b|: you could use implementation specific functions directly, but bordeaux-threads is the popular solution
2016-09-19T09:51:11Z solene: |3b|: hmm, I tried green-threads but I don't think it could have worked because I need 2 waiting processes. Sadly, I don't have a common lisp supported threads on openbsd :(
2016-09-19T09:51:23Z |3b|: you might also be able to poll for messages instead of blocking, but i'm not sure that would be easier than using threads
2016-09-19T09:51:48Z phadthai: since your task is I/O bound you may also want to try polling solutions, including iolib
2016-09-19T09:51:49Z |3b|: ah, if you don't have a threaded lisp, bordeaux-threads won't help as much :/
2016-09-19T09:52:09Z phadthai: instead of threads and blocking sockets
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2016-09-19T09:54:09Z phoe_: solene: http://www.cliki.net/thread
2016-09-19T09:54:10Z |3b| supposes you could separate it into 2 processes, one that handles UI and one that does networking, but that would probably be worse than polling unless you think you might want it for other reasons (like being able to access it from multiple machines at once)
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2016-09-19T09:54:17Z phoe_: looks like cmucl has threads on openbsd
2016-09-19T09:54:45Z Grue``: common lisp isn't really suited for "small" irc client, even the smallest one would be bigger than some of the popular clients
2016-09-19T09:55:12Z solene: phoe_: cmucl isn't supported anymore since openbsd 3.1 (which is a few years old)
2016-09-19T09:55:28Z phadthai: ECL probably also supports OpenBSD with threads
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2016-09-19T09:55:36Z phoe_: solene: welp.
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2016-09-19T09:56:07Z Grue``: it's always possible to launch two processes, one for listening, another for UI
2016-09-19T09:56:28Z solene: phoe_: I will check ecl
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2016-09-19T09:58:52Z Grue``: I don't know about the library, but theoretically green threads allow any amount of waiting processes (but only one that executes code at a time)
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2016-09-19T10:00:05Z Grue``: a green thread also can periodically relinquish control to give other threads a chance to do something
2016-09-19T10:00:15Z phadthai: it depends though, if a process-blocking syscall is executing then all green threads are blocked as well (so usually the impementation must try to wrap any such into an abstraction using polling or similar)
2016-09-19T10:00:16Z solene: Grue``: I tried to do it with green threads but I am not sure to understand how it works. I tried to display 2 loops in 2 differents threads and they are done sequentially
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2016-09-19T10:01:21Z phadthai: you may have needed to yield in each loop if they were cooperative threads
2016-09-19T10:02:20Z phadthai: (yield is a common term for what Grue`` described, relinquish control voluntarily)
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2016-09-19T10:04:01Z solene: sbcl with --fancy give threads on openbsd, the system package doesn't compile it with threads (i should submit a patch). I will do with bordeaux
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2016-09-19T10:14:38Z loke: solene: It's remarkable how system packages never manage to get SBCL right. It's not like it's hard.
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2016-09-19T10:16:37Z solene: loke: sbcl's threads on OpenBSD seems really new, I think that's why it's not compiled with by default
2016-09-19T10:16:47Z solene: I checked last year and it wasn't working
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2016-09-19T10:29:02Z solene: how would you write an infinite loop ?
2016-09-19T10:32:04Z phadthai: (loop do ...) ?
2016-09-19T10:32:58Z solene: phadthai: indeed... thanks again
2016-09-19T10:33:48Z loke: Actually, if all you want is an infinite loop without any other loop features, you can just do (loop (whatever))
2016-09-19T10:34:54Z jackdaniel: ECL works on openbsd with threads (I've tested it before 16.1.2 release on it)
2016-09-19T10:35:02Z loke: This is because in CLtL1, that's all that LOOP did.
2016-09-19T10:35:22Z jackdaniel: but you may need to build with bundled boehmgc if the system one is older than 7.4 (or built without them)
2016-09-19T10:35:45Z jackdaniel: solene: ↑
2016-09-19T10:38:35Z solene: jackdaniel: I will check threads on ECL, maybe submit a patch too if it can enable threads for everyone. Trying sbcl with bordeaux at the moment ^^
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2016-09-19T10:49:33Z jackdaniel: patch? what kind of patch?
2016-09-19T10:51:10Z solene: jackdaniel: I had OpenBSD ecl port Makefile in mind when talking about patch. If it's only a configure argument then it's easier to fix the openbsd package
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2016-09-19T10:53:15Z jackdaniel: ah, OK
2016-09-19T10:53:36Z jackdaniel: it should be fairly easy to provide port for ecl - it uses ordinary autotools / makefile to build
2016-09-19T10:54:09Z solene: the port alread exists but I'm not sure the current package can load bordeaux-threads
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2016-09-19T10:54:54Z jackdaniel: you have to take into consideration the following: ECL to work with threads needs to be linked against libgc >= 7.4 and built with thread support
2016-09-19T10:55:34Z jackdaniel: otherwise ecl doesn't support them. That said, ECL may be built with its bundled libgc built as a static library (--with-boehm=included)
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2016-09-19T12:19:36Z raydeejay: is this dirty?
2016-09-19T12:19:38Z raydeejay:        :collecting (assoc-value post :date) :into dates
2016-09-19T12:19:38Z raydeejay:        :collecting (assoc-value post :updated) :into dates
2016-09-19T12:19:38Z raydeejay:  
2016-09-19T12:21:50Z axion: yep
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2016-09-19T12:23:23Z raydeejay: something cleaner?
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2016-09-19T12:26:11Z raydeejay: um, actually, can I use maximizing with strings?
2016-09-19T12:26:43Z axion: Kind of hard without seeing more context
2016-09-19T12:27:17Z raydeejay: the values there are either strings of the form "2016-09-18 22:30" or nil
2016-09-19T12:27:33Z raydeejay: and my goal is end up with the newest timestring
2016-09-19T12:27:39Z |3b|: you can find the maximum of a function of the string, but harder to get the string corresponding to that maximum
2016-09-19T12:28:00Z pipping: raydeejay: you might want to use iterate for that: https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/#examples
2016-09-19T12:28:21Z axion: Can we see the whole loop form?
2016-09-19T12:28:27Z raydeejay: sure
2016-09-19T12:28:53Z raydeejay: https://gist.github.com/b1fbb4166d6d2478cd98aa610a271666
2016-09-19T12:29:05Z |3b| sees nothing wrong with multiple COLLECTING clauses though
2016-09-19T12:29:15Z axion: for starters, you can destructure the list in the FOR clause
2016-09-19T12:31:01Z |3b|: (collecting into a variable you never use seems a bit less useful)
2016-09-19T12:31:21Z axion: no need for alexandria here, and the progn is also useles
2016-09-19T12:31:23Z axion: s
2016-09-19T12:31:41Z raydeejay: indentation
2016-09-19T12:32:13Z raydeejay: I appreciate the input, but the question was simple: is there something more elegant than two collecting clauses? xD
2016-09-19T12:32:18Z raydeejay: I know the loop can use some love
2016-09-19T12:32:45Z raydeejay: as for not using the DATES list, I plan to pass it to make-feed at the end
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2016-09-19T12:34:00Z axion: your editor should do the right thing for that...see my comment
2016-09-19T12:34:03Z |3b|: seems OK to me, if you want a list with the 2 types of dates interleaved rather than grouped
2016-09-19T12:34:30Z raydeejay: yeah, the idea is that the newest "date:" or "updated:" header determines the <updated> field of the Atom feed
2016-09-19T12:34:33Z pipping: raydeejay: probe-file will return non-nil also for directories btw
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2016-09-19T12:36:05Z raydeejay: yeah, well, I'm not sure I want to deal with people doing intelligent things like creating a slug that looks like a directory name, or the other way around, inside the posts/ directory where I plan to move the posts (when I finish what I'm doing now)
2016-09-19T12:36:16Z raydeejay: I know I'm not going to do it :)
2016-09-19T12:37:03Z raydeejay: but good to know
2016-09-19T12:37:22Z pipping: hence uiop:file-exists-p
2016-09-19T12:37:27Z |3b| would probably calculate the 'newest' date in the loop rather than passing a list if 'newest' is all you care about
2016-09-19T12:38:10Z |3b|: you need to do it manually though rather than using maximizing, unless passing a numeric timestamp of some sort is OK
2016-09-19T12:38:27Z raydeejay: I'd rather keep it simple, it's not like I need extra performance
2016-09-19T12:38:31Z _death: to me the big offenders are conflating multiple concerns into one function and using raw alist interface when accessing fields of a post
2016-09-19T12:38:34Z raydeejay: collect strings, then sort, pick the winner
2016-09-19T12:39:11Z raydeejay: agreed, but code that you don't write is code that you don't have to debug
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2016-09-19T12:39:26Z raydeejay: once things are in place, if they are properly made, they can be extracted
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2016-09-19T12:39:33Z phoe_: Am I misunderstanding OPTIMA's MATCH? Why (match "foo" ("foo")) returns NIL, as if no match happened at all?
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2016-09-19T12:45:07Z raydeejay: on the other hand, that's not the proper place to figure out the newest post, the proper place is make-feed
2016-09-19T12:45:19Z cromachina: (match "foo" ("foo" 'do-something))
2016-09-19T12:45:47Z phoe_: cromachina: !
2016-09-19T12:45:49Z phoe_: Thank you.
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2016-09-19T12:54:09Z phoe_: Is there a way to customize the matching predicate in OPTIMA? I have data in the form of (#:FOO #:BAR #:BAZ) - and the only sane way of comparing uninterned symbols with other symbols that I know is STRING=.
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2016-09-19T13:08:52Z phoe_: In other words - I want to match symbols using STRING=. How can I do that in OPTIMA?
2016-09-19T13:11:29Z otwieracz: Are you sure that what you're doing is correct?
2016-09-19T13:12:16Z otwieracz: Because it feels like comparing uninterned symbol with symbol from some package should always return NIL.
2016-09-19T13:13:25Z phoe_: otwieracz: yes, I am.
2016-09-19T13:14:01Z otwieracz: yes, you *what*?
2016-09-19T13:14:05Z phoe_: I am sure.
2016-09-19T13:14:27Z phoe_: The input that comes into my program is S-expressions that are made of lists, uninterned symbols, numbers and strings.
2016-09-19T13:14:36Z otwieracz: And you're asking for function which will compare 'FOO with 'BAR::FOO and return true?
2016-09-19T13:14:48Z otwieracz: and for 'FOO 'CAR::FOO also T?
2016-09-19T13:14:58Z phoe_: I'm not asking for such a function, I know that STRING= will return T.
2016-09-19T13:15:11Z phoe_: I'm asking for a way to tell OPTIMA to use STRING= when comparing objects of type SYMBOL.
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2016-09-19T13:15:57Z jackdaniel: I think that you want strings not symbols there in that case
2016-09-19T13:17:30Z phoe_: I want to be able to visually tell apart symbols from strings in that case, as in my case symbols are always commands and strings are always data.
2016-09-19T13:18:12Z phoe_: (#:SEND (#:PLAYER #:NAME "Player 1") (#:MESSAGE "Hello!")) is much clearer than ("SEND" ("PLAYER" "NAME" "Player 1") ("MESSAGE" "Hello!"))
2016-09-19T13:18:18Z jackdaniel: then use keywords only. either way I don't know optima, comparing symbols for names just seems wrong
2016-09-19T13:18:34Z jackdaniel: (:send (:player :name "p1") (:message "hi"))
2016-09-19T13:18:50Z phoe_: jackdaniel: this is *input* to my program. I cannot trust it.
2016-09-19T13:19:00Z phoe_: And I cannot just blindly intern everything into KEYWORD package.
2016-09-19T13:19:09Z phoe_: That's why my symbols are uninterned.
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2016-09-19T13:20:22Z phoe_: Because input like (:kasdjfhksdhfksjfhksjfh) will intern that symbol into my KEYWORDS package and eat up my RAM.
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2016-09-19T13:21:56Z dlowe: I convert strings to local symbols by just having a list of allowable strings.
2016-09-19T13:22:19Z dlowe: it's a little annoying, since I have to keep the list updated.
2016-09-19T13:22:35Z phoe_: dlowe: exactly that, and I'm too lazy to update nth place every time I change my protocol.
2016-09-19T13:22:46Z cromachina: how about interning them into a temporary package, and then destroying it when you are done
2016-09-19T13:22:48Z phoe_: I can do it once my software is more or less stabilized protocol-wise - but not now.
2016-09-19T13:22:59Z dlowe: cromachina: doesn't work for generic dispatch
2016-09-19T13:23:12Z phoe_: cromachina: that's exactly what I do right now. I create a temporary package, intern all the symbols, kill the package, have uninterned symbols.
2016-09-19T13:23:27Z phoe_: But - even when I have a temporary package, I need to match them against a set of symbols from another package.
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2016-09-19T13:23:34Z phoe_: In which case I'm back to STRING=.
2016-09-19T13:24:28Z cromachina: sounds like strings are really what you want then
2016-09-19T13:24:53Z dlowe: yeah, uninterned symbols are kinda pointless because you can't compare them with EQ
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2016-09-19T13:26:04Z dlowe: if you can't take the ugliness of all the quotations, make a pretty printer :)
2016-09-19T13:27:46Z pipping: fe[nl]ix: I've pasted this example use of a condition-variable (my first exposure to the concept) earlier when it seems everybody was asleep. Would you mind commenting on it? http://paste.lisp.org/display/326501 What I do seems suboptimal but I wouldn't know how to improve on it.
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2016-09-19T13:28:34Z _death: you could have your own COMMAND objects
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2016-09-19T13:39:16Z phoe_: _death: and then how do I compare my COMMAND objects?
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2016-09-19T13:40:33Z dlowe: with your command comparision function
2016-09-19T13:40:49Z phoe_: and how do I pass that to OPTIMA?
2016-09-19T13:41:21Z dlowe: doesn't optima just take a predicate function as a matcher?
2016-09-19T13:42:09Z phoe_: dlowe: from what I understood, no.
2016-09-19T13:42:34Z phoe_: if it was that easy, I'd have gone STRING= with symbols a long time ago.
2016-09-19T13:43:31Z dlowe: Matches an instance of a given subclass of standard-class, as well as the instance's slots.
2016-09-19T13:43:45Z dlowe: so there's your class matcher if you decide to make command objects.
2016-09-19T13:44:11Z dlowe: the guard matcher takes a predicate :p
2016-09-19T13:44:47Z dlowe: or you can use the satisfies matcher
2016-09-19T13:45:18Z phoe_: dlowe: SATISFIES is one-argument, where I need two.
2016-09-19T13:45:18Z dlowe: but it looks like (guard x (string= x "foo")) is what you might want
2016-09-19T13:45:23Z phoe_: Yep.
2016-09-19T13:45:41Z dlowe: I say this without ever having used optima
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2016-09-19T13:49:35Z phoe_: Yes, thanks - I didn't see that. I'm trying out OPTIMA for the first time.
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2016-09-19T14:02:54Z phoe_: One more question - should I be using TRIVIA or OPTIMA?
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2016-09-19T14:24:24Z |3b| wasn't paying attention, was it suggested to use find-symbol instead of intern, since presumably you don't care about commands you haven't implemented? (and want to error on bad input as soon as possible)
2016-09-19T14:25:15Z |3b|: (and probably find-symbol in a specific package with only those symbols rather than keyuword or whatever)
2016-09-19T14:27:11Z dlowe: hm, now there's an idea.
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2016-09-19T14:31:22Z |3b|: i guess then you don't get to just READ it though (but you probably shouldn't if it is untrusted anyway)
2016-09-19T14:32:57Z phoe_: |3b|: I use SECURE-READ that I wrote to take care of input sanity.
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2016-09-19T14:33:12Z phoe_: FIND-SYMBOL is an idea though, I'll think of it.
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2016-09-19T14:33:26Z |3b|: in that case, having an option to not create new symbols sounds like a useful feature :)
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2016-09-19T14:37:28Z pipping: Xach: what's holding back https://github.com/xach/buildapp/pull/4 btw?
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2016-09-19T15:45:50Z phoe: |3b|: yes, that's why I do the createpackage-intern-deletepackage trick.
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2016-09-19T16:42:14Z ebrasca: can I do list like this "((J ,(* 3 X)))"?
2016-09-19T16:42:18Z ebrasca: I need it for my macro.
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2016-09-19T16:45:20Z dlowe: ebrasca: that question is not really answerable. What are you trying to do?
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2016-09-19T16:45:42Z dlowe: oh, you're being answered on another channel. carry on.
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2016-09-19T16:46:29Z ebrasca: dlowe: thx you.
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2016-09-19T17:06:35Z ebrasca: I search for teacher of lisp.
2016-09-19T17:07:10Z antoszka: ebrasca: Try joining #lispnoobs and getting some guidance for self-teaching.
2016-09-19T17:07:24Z antoszka: ebrasca: Erm, sorry, #clnoobs
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2016-09-19T17:51:13Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-09-19T17:51:20Z beach: ebrasca: Are you still in Poland?
2016-09-19T17:51:49Z Quadresce: Good evening
2016-09-19T17:51:57Z beach: Hello Quadresce.
2016-09-19T17:54:56Z beach: ebrasca: Anyway, I can't stay and wait for your answer.  You may ask for a teacher in the channel #lisp-pl.  At least I think that is what it is called.
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2016-09-19T18:45:36Z flip214: question about lparallel... when one of the threads THROWs, can that be caught in the thread that ran PREMOVE-IF-NOT?
2016-09-19T18:45:47Z flip214: that's not possible, right?
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2016-09-19T18:46:05Z flip214: how can I abort the currently running P* operation?
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2016-09-19T18:47:54Z flip214: ah, https://lparallel.org/handling/
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2016-09-19T18:53:54Z phoe: It's pretty weird to include Swank in my project's dependency just to be able to utilize #'SWANK-BACKEND:ARGLIST.
2016-09-19T18:53:59Z phoe: dependencies*
2016-09-19T18:54:26Z phoe: But then again - I'm processing arglists at runtime, so.
2016-09-19T18:54:59Z jackdaniel: phoe: there is also trivial-argument-list
2016-09-19T18:55:09Z jackdaniel: ops, trivial-arguments
2016-09-19T18:55:20Z phoe: jackdaniel: !
2016-09-19T18:55:22Z phoe: thanks!
2016-09-19T18:55:25Z jackdaniel: sure
2016-09-19T18:55:40Z jackdaniel: it's very handy (and it uses swank if available)
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2016-09-19T18:58:10Z phoe: Is there a library that grabs a function call, in the form of '(fn . args), and checks whether ARGS are valid arguments for FN's lambda list?
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2016-09-19T18:58:44Z phoe: I know about ALEXANDRIA's PARSE-ORDINARY-LAMBDA-LIST but that only gets me halfway there.
2016-09-19T18:58:46Z flip214: phoe: EVAL    (ouch ;)
2016-09-19T18:58:50Z phoe: flip214: xD
2016-09-19T18:58:57Z phoe: that hurt
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2016-09-19T19:00:27Z phoe: I mean - without EVALuating that function.
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2016-09-19T19:08:25Z phoe: ...does it mean I'll need to write it myself?
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2016-09-19T19:09:33Z jackdaniel: you may rip it off from any cl implementation, they do validate if the lambda-lists are congruent
2016-09-19T19:09:47Z jackdaniel: but I would be suprised if it weren't already implemented somewhere
2016-09-19T19:09:56Z jackdaniel: (as an utility)
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2016-09-19T19:10:56Z PuercoPop: phoe: maybe https://github.com/Bike/sandalphon.lambda-list can help
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2016-09-19T19:15:30Z phoe: jackdaniel: I'm looking for an utility, correct. What PuercoPop linked seems like a working piece of code, but I need more time to find out how to use it.
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2016-09-19T19:18:45Z PuercoPop: scratch that, you can probable use trivia's lambda-list pattern
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2016-09-19T19:20:58Z phoe: ...ooh
2016-09-19T19:21:41Z PuercoPop: just match the arguments you want to verify the lambda-list conforms to and use (lambda-list ,@(sb-instrospect:funciton-lambda-list function) as the matching pattern.
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2016-09-19T19:26:47Z phoe: I still have trouble using TRIVIA though. (match '(foo) ((lambda-list '(bar)) t)) gives me NIL, though I think I got the syntax right.
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2016-09-19T19:27:55Z PuercoPop: phoe: you want (lambda-list bar)
2016-09-19T19:28:00Z PuercoPop: splicing the arguments
2016-09-19T19:28:27Z Quadresce: I'm in the mood to see some wacky Lisp code
2016-09-19T19:30:12Z edgar-rft: Quadresce: (defun trivial-eval (&rest args) (error "Too trivial: ~S" args))
2016-09-19T19:30:37Z phoe: edgar-rft: +1
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2016-09-19T19:32:16Z phoe: PuercoPop: http://paste.lisp.org/display/326552
2016-09-19T19:32:31Z phoe: Am I making a mistake here?
2016-09-19T19:34:11Z PuercoPop: phoe: I'm still working on the solution. And then I have to figure out how to do it w/o a macro http://paste.lisp.org/+6ZYX
2016-09-19T19:34:39Z PuercoPop: but the match expresion at the end shows how it should be used
2016-09-19T19:35:23Z Quadresce: edgar-rft, not wacky enough
2016-09-19T19:35:52Z PuercoPop: ok works with compile
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2016-09-19T19:37:57Z edgar-rft: Quadresce: (defpackage :trivial-nil (:import-from :common-lisp nil) (:export nil))
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2016-09-19T19:38:21Z phoe: oh-wait. I'm learning how lambda lists work.
2016-09-19T19:38:22Z PuercoPop: http://paste.lisp.org/+6ZYX/1
2016-09-19T19:38:45Z PuercoPop: phoe: that works. First time I use C-u C-x C-e too.
2016-09-19T19:38:59Z PuercoPop: and compile, there is probably a better way
2016-09-19T19:39:28Z phoe: (verify-arguments #'princ 1 2) ; => T
2016-09-19T19:39:30Z phoe: why?
2016-09-19T19:39:35Z phoe: (princ 1 2) errors for me.
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2016-09-19T19:39:54Z phoe: oh, wait
2016-09-19T19:39:58Z phoe: it does error for me
2016-09-19T19:40:01Z PuercoPop: that is due to types
2016-09-19T19:40:05Z phoe: but the lambda list works!
2016-09-19T19:40:05Z PuercoPop: 2 is not a stream
2016-09-19T19:40:11Z PuercoPop: but it is congruent with the lambda-list
2016-09-19T19:40:13Z phoe: yes, got it.
2016-09-19T19:40:15Z phoe: derped for a moment.
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2016-09-19T19:42:29Z phoe: Thanks! I'll use it. It's what I want.
2016-09-19T19:42:53Z phoe: I have to run for now. Brb.
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2016-09-19T19:57:15Z flip214: help, please. I'm trying to abort a task across all LParallel threads, but I can't get it working.
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2016-09-19T19:58:07Z flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/326555 says that "Condition COMMON-LISP-USER::ABORT-FILE was signalled."  within LPARALLEL.KERNEL::UNWRAP-RESULT
2016-09-19T19:58:28Z flip214: although I have a lparallel:task-handler-bind around my pmapcar
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2016-09-19T19:59:31Z flip214: that's lparallel-20160421-git from QL
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2016-09-19T20:05:03Z PuercoPop: flip214: (signal 'abort-file ()) fails for me, so abort-file wouldn't be signaled
2016-09-19T20:05:54Z flip214: PuercoPop: it gets signalled all right, but not caught in the main thread. INVOKE-DEBUGGER says it's being called! ;)
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2016-09-19T20:07:37Z PuercoPop: flip214: it raises Incorrect keyword arguments in (NIL) . [Condition of type CCL::SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR] For me. And it makes sense. I don't see any slots  (with :initargs) for abort-file
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2016-09-19T20:10:39Z flip214: PuercoPop: hmmm. trying with (signal 'abort-file) gives me the same result...
2016-09-19T20:10:57Z flip214: "Condition COMMON-LISP-USER::ABORT-FILE was signalled." in LPARALLEL.KERNEL::UNWRAP-RESULT
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2016-09-19T20:11:18Z flip214: a HANDLER-BIND around the lparallel:task-handler-bind doesn't help either
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2016-09-19T20:20:50Z flip214: PuercoPop: HANDLER-CASE works for me... but HANDLER-BIND doesn't
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2016-09-19T20:22:20Z rpg: flip214: Is it possible that these 2 constructs have different semantics WRT threads/processes?
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2016-09-19T20:23:47Z flip214: rpg: I don't know.... I don't think so, lparallel:task-handler-bind should do that for me
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2016-09-19T20:36:49Z phoe: PuercoPop: your solution does produce UNUSED-VARIABLE warnings. Do you have any idea where should I put an IGNORABLE to muffle them?
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2016-09-19T20:37:38Z flip214: PuercoPop: thanks for the hint!
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2016-09-19T21:09:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: flip214: CL:HANDLER-BIND doesn't supress the signal by default does task-handler-bind?
2016-09-19T21:10:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs handler-bind
2016-09-19T21:10:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_handle.htm
2016-09-19T21:11:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 9.1.4.1
2016-09-19T21:11:20Z specbot: Signaling: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_ada.htm
2016-09-19T21:11:40Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: no, it doesn't either
2016-09-19T21:11:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Your handler isn't transferring control, as far as I can tell
2016-09-19T21:12:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I _think_ you need something like handler-case for what you want, or you could use a tagbody and (go) to do the transfer of control manually
2016-09-19T21:13:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. (tagbody (lparallel:task-handler-bind ((abort-file (lambda (e) (go end))))) end)
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2016-09-19T21:14:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or you could do this with restarts or (possibly) with throw/catch)
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2016-09-19T21:15:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: lparallel's docs use restarts: https://lparallel.org/handling/
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2016-09-19T21:16:37Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks for the pointers, will look at that
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2016-09-19T21:22:19Z phoe: PuercoPop: I solved it by planting a HANDLER-BIND with MUFFLE-WARNING around the COMPILE call.
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2016-09-19T21:43:06Z PuercoPop: flip214: sorry I couldn't be of more help
2016-09-19T21:44:08Z PuercoPop: phoe: yeah, renaming symbols that refer to 'variable' in the lambda list to _ is more work.
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2016-09-19T21:47:48Z des_consolado: hey I'm trying to define a simple exponentiating function, here's my attempt: http://pastebin.com/ctDs3xse
2016-09-19T21:48:11Z des_consolado: am I at least approaching this in the right way? It seems to go into an infinite loop D:
2016-09-19T21:48:29Z drdo: des_consolado: Your problem is the IF condition
2016-09-19T21:48:41Z oGMo: (if 0 "yes" "no") ; try that
2016-09-19T21:48:44Z drdo: Anything that isn't NIL is treated as true
2016-09-19T21:48:48Z drdo: 0 isn't false
2016-09-19T21:48:55Z oGMo: ^
2016-09-19T21:50:16Z des_consolado: gah I missed the last " and slime again starts hanging. is there a keypress to tell slime to abort and stop hanging when it does that?
2016-09-19T21:50:20Z des_consolado: I keep managing to make it hang :p
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2016-09-19T21:51:24Z des_consolado: ah C-c C-c
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2016-09-19T21:53:50Z des_consolado: ah yay I think I did it, I changed it to (if (> y 1)
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2016-09-19T21:57:43Z PuercoPop: des_consolado: there is zerop, (if (zerop y) ...)
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2016-09-19T21:59:39Z des_consolado: aha, thanks guys
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2016-09-19T22:17:36Z pipping: mordocai: you said this the other day:
2016-09-19T22:17:43Z pipping: > What is the most up to date tool for generating a bundle with all your asdf dependencies so you can zip it up as a "release" of your software (but not a lisp image, that'd be separate)? I was thinking for games in particular it'd be nice to have the specific deps bundled so when people want to inspect the source code/try it out if quicklisp has updated and broke something in your app it doesn't matter
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2016-09-19T22:18:37Z pipping: mordocai: I've just come across this blog post: http://techsnuffle.com/2016/08/01/stuck-in-port which mentions https://github.com/cbaggers/shipshape which might be something you're interested in
2016-09-19T22:19:19Z Xach: Quicklisp does library bundles too.
2016-09-19T22:19:30Z Xach: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html
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2016-09-19T22:20:21Z pipping: Good to know!
2016-09-19T22:24:47Z phoe: PuercoPop: oh, that! I see.
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2016-09-19T22:38:50Z mordocai: Xach: That may do what I want actually. I'll have to play with it.
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2016-09-19T22:40:38Z Xach: mordocai: ok, cool
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2016-09-19T22:52:49Z drmeister: Xach: Could quicklisp be used to distribute packages specialized for one Common Lisp variant?
2016-09-19T22:53:22Z drmeister: I know that sounds a bit antithetical to its purpose - but this would be to serve the scientific community.
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2016-09-19T22:54:43Z drmeister: I'm proposing to distribute Cando packages (Clasp + a lot of chemistry functionality) and unless/until we can develop CFFI bindings for the Cando chemistry functionality (a definite possibility) Cando packages wouldn't run on other Common Lisps.
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2016-09-19T23:01:24Z Xach: drmeister: the main quicklisp project will not distribute things like that. but you can make your own dists to which people can subscribe and update and stuff, just like the main dist.
2016-09-19T23:02:41Z pipping: drmeister: http://dists.cl21.org/cl21.txt would be an example of such a thing
2016-09-19T23:03:26Z Xach: It's not documented how to make them :(
2016-09-19T23:03:38Z Xach: If this fundraising thing works, I'd like to spend some of the time it affords on documentation
2016-09-19T23:05:49Z drmeister: Xach - thanks.  It's a bit more formalized than fundraising.  It's a grant proposal to the National Institute of Health, they have a specific request for proposals to support documenting, disseminating, cleaning up and extending existing software packages.
2016-09-19T23:06:24Z Xach: drmeister: Oh, I hope to ask people to donate to a Quicklisp fundraising effort "soon"
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2016-09-19T23:06:39Z drmeister: I've got two communities that I'm proposing to serve (1) the Amber computational chemistry community and (2) the synthetic foldamer community.  I'm soliciting about several letters of support from people in each community.
2016-09-19T23:06:45Z Xach: If I can do that under another umbrella that would be great too!
2016-09-19T23:07:43Z drmeister: If I get this funded I'll be in touch to support quicklisp because of the value that it adds to Cando as a software distribution system.
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2016-09-19T23:10:10Z drmeister: I'm not saying "free money" - mind you.   But the existing Common Lisp software ecosystem adds a lot of value to Cando and it makes sense to support things that support Cando.
2016-09-19T23:10:27Z drmeister: No promises though - it's got to get through reviewers first.
2016-09-19T23:11:00Z Xach: sure
2016-09-19T23:11:41Z drmeister: I needed to know if it was technically feasible to set up quicklisp distribution systems that be separate and wouldn't pollute the Common Lisp ecosystem.
2016-09-19T23:11:54Z drmeister: s/that be/that are/
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2016-09-19T23:13:20Z Xach: drmeister: Yes, very feasible.
2016-09-19T23:13:35Z Xach: drmeister: By design. i envisioned a system where lispworks users can have lispworks treats, etc.
2016-09-19T23:13:46Z Xach: To date, few people have made their own dists, because it is harder than necessary.
2016-09-19T23:14:01Z Xach: lack of docs, and lack of tooling. but not lack of technical possibility.
2016-09-19T23:14:10Z Xach: the client code supports it out of the box.
2016-09-19T23:14:17Z drmeister: Great - thank you.
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2016-09-19T23:16:07Z drmeister: Because if systems containing code like this start showing up in the regular quicklisp ecosystem - people would freak out:
2016-09-19T23:16:09Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/JfJ3tFcJ/
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2016-09-19T23:19:02Z pipping: I think there was a slight misunderstanding between the two of you: I think drmeister was referring to his grant proposal and Xach was referring to https://www.quicklisp.org/donations.html
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2016-09-19T23:19:37Z pipping: (oh, never mind, apparently you cleared that up already)
2016-09-19T23:19:45Z drmeister: No - I understood what Xach was referring to.
2016-09-19T23:20:09Z drmeister: pipping: Thanks for the pointer to http://dists.cl21.org/cl21.txt
2016-09-19T23:20:11Z drmeister: What is that for?
2016-09-19T23:20:25Z pipping: that's for http://cl21.org
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2016-09-19T23:21:59Z drmeister: Ok!
2016-09-19T23:22:04Z raydeejay: hm... I think that the basic premise there (that better languages are more popular) is wrong :/
2016-09-19T23:22:14Z drmeister: I'm all for it.
2016-09-19T23:22:17Z raydeejay: for any value of better
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2016-09-19T23:23:04Z drmeister: raydeejay: It's been demonstrated over and over that better languages are not more popular.
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2016-09-19T23:23:19Z drmeister: But better languages are better.
2016-09-19T23:23:31Z pipping: amen.
2016-09-19T23:23:54Z raydeejay: I know, I know... I mean that I think that from my own experience, not because I read something somewhere (thought I did read something somewhere)
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2016-09-19T23:25:20Z raydeejay: one should only need to mention the three magic letters, P, H and P, to make it obvious to but the most obtuse minds
2016-09-19T23:25:27Z pipping: "better is better" -- drmeister (loosely quoted). "I did read something somehwere" -- raydeejay. wow. this channel is on fire ;)
2016-09-19T23:25:49Z Xach: in my experience better languages are more popular, if your metric for better is "good at being popular"
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2016-09-19T23:26:13Z raydeejay: that is some metric
2016-09-19T23:26:52Z raydeejay: I would argue that it's not really a quality of the language itself
2016-09-19T23:26:59Z pipping: i think it's lovingly referred to as "not getting beat up at school" metric
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2016-09-19T23:42:15Z drmeister: cl21: Regular expressions are functions!  Neat.
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2016-09-19T23:47:59Z drmeister: In slime - do people use C-c C-c to compile and evaluate forms?   Until this morning in slime/clasp I used C-M-x to evaluate forms but I discovered that it was using clasp's interpreter to evaluate the forms and that was really slow.
2016-09-19T23:48:45Z pillton: My muscle memory is telling me that I switch between the two.
2016-09-19T23:49:04Z pillton: I'm not sure when I use which.
2016-09-19T23:49:58Z pillton: I probable use C-c C-k the most.
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2016-09-20T02:53:49Z jasom: rpg: sorry, I had forgotten my parents were visiting this weekend, so I didn't have much time to look at automating the windows VM.  On top of that I drew jury duty this week, so I spent most of this evening so far making sure there aren't any fires to put out at work.  Looking at testing asdf now.
2016-09-20T03:00:15Z rpg: No problem. Whenever you get a chance, I will do my best to help you set up.
2016-09-20T03:00:29Z rpg: I can't really help that much with the Windows side, but I can at least help with the ASDF side.
2016-09-20T03:01:04Z rpg: I don't really know how people do things like this that are portable across windows and unix. The only thing I've figured out to do is to run things through cygwin
2016-09-20T03:04:34Z jasom: rpg: if gnu make is involved then cygwin is really the best bet (or something cygwin derived like msys2)
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2016-09-20T03:05:03Z rpg: jasom: Also there's a certain amount of shell glue (run-tests.sh)
2016-09-20T03:05:21Z jasom: for test scripts, if I know it's going to be multiplatform, I try to use python as it's less painful than windows .bat files and more easily made portable
2016-09-20T03:06:52Z jasom: powershell is interesting, but it's yet another thing to learn, is only just recently available for linux, probably still unavailable for mac, and you need to reboot to install it on windows, which is an extra step in the install process that is really unnecessary
2016-09-20T03:07:16Z jasom: also you can't automate running powershell scripts on windows without either disabling UAC or signing all your code
2016-09-20T03:07:58Z jasom: For work I actually automate some testing that needs to run on solaris, linux, and windows so I've had to deal with this before.
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2016-09-20T03:20:31Z pillton: jasom: I have been using inferior-shell recently. I haven't had any problems with it. (Disclaimer: I haven't been following your conversation).
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2016-09-20T03:38:38Z rpg: pillton: inferior-shell really doesn't work for testing ASDF.  I tried, but it just drove me crazy.
2016-09-20T03:39:30Z rpg: Part of the problem is that you're using ASDF to build the stuff you are testing. that kind of circularity is really unhappy-making.
2016-09-20T03:40:22Z pillton: rpg: Oh. I had forgotten that.
2016-09-20T03:40:31Z rpg: Another problem is that CL is a horrible shell-scripting language: no regexps in native syntax, no filename globbing, interaction with directories is a hot mess, etc. etc.
2016-09-20T03:40:44Z rpg: People whine about perl, but there's a good reason it is the way it is.
2016-09-20T03:40:54Z rpg: oh, yeah, no variable interpolation!
2016-09-20T03:41:10Z pillton: You use `(,blah).
2016-09-20T03:41:28Z pillton: Actually, what do you mean by variable interpolation?
2016-09-20T03:41:30Z rpg: Not in strings, you don't!
2016-09-20T03:41:37Z rpg:  And strings are the language the shell speaks.
2016-09-20T03:41:40Z Bike: there's a library for that (with strings), but yeah it'll be more verbose pretty inevitably
2016-09-20T03:42:09Z rpg: I'm not saying someone couldn't make a CL dialect for shell-scripting, mind you, just that we don't have one.
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2016-09-20T03:43:19Z rpg: Also we need  a really good filesystem access API, ideally universal across implementations.
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2016-09-20T03:43:44Z jasom: uiop makes things better, but still not perfect.
2016-09-20T03:43:46Z rpg: Fare's work in UIOP is heroic, but there's a limit to what even he can do.
2016-09-20T03:43:48Z jasom: or really even not "good enough" if you are talking cross-platform
2016-09-20T03:44:04Z pillton: I don't really see the problem with http://paste.lisp.org/display/326562. At least you don't have to remember to escape spaces, quotes etc.
2016-09-20T03:44:16Z jasom: it's good enough for what asdf does, but when you start talking about arbitrary file names &c. you get into problems.
2016-09-20T03:44:17Z rpg: symlinks? hahahahah. Anyone's guess what will happen!
2016-09-20T03:44:39Z pillton: But hey, you do what makes your life easier.
2016-09-20T03:45:14Z pillton: I was only offering an option.
2016-09-20T03:45:24Z rpg: pillton: sure.
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2016-09-20T03:45:39Z rpg: I'm just waiting for the CL shell scripting dialect.
2016-09-20T03:45:51Z pillton: I was sold because I could use unwind-protect.
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2016-09-20T03:46:17Z jasom: pillton: yeah that is a bit nicer than trap
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2016-09-20T03:47:04Z rpg: I think if we had more clearly figured out how to have a source Lisp, that had a frozen, fully populated ASDF, and set of libraries, and used that as the scripting engine and ANOTHER to load the tests into, things might have worked better.
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2016-09-20T03:47:38Z rpg: But I was spending more time fixing the build and test infrastructure than building or testing, so I had to bail back to the existing make + shell stuff.
2016-09-20T03:48:02Z rpg: OK, need a drink and sleep.
2016-09-20T03:48:33Z rpg: Good night everyone!  If someone wants to write that shell-scripting set up, let me know! ;-)
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2016-09-20T03:50:24Z jasom: rpg: I want to get *something* to autovalidate windows builds automatically, then I mya look into it
2016-09-20T03:50:28Z jasom: oh, missed him.
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2016-09-20T06:52:41Z des_consolado: Hey what does " cond {clause}* => result* " from http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_cond.htm mean? I know the stuff::= (like this*) is BNF, not sure what the asterisk is here though either tbh. Have been googling but can't find any proper documentation of the first notation
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2016-09-20T06:53:10Z des_consolado: I guess * means there can be more than 1?
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2016-09-20T06:54:35Z des_consolado: The description explains quite well what cond does, so I guess that explains it. Still it would be useful to have a page for reference on these notations so I can have a better time understanding the hyperspec.
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2016-09-20T07:03:07Z edgar-rft: des_consolado: the * star means any non-negative integer, including zero, so (cond) => NIL
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2016-09-20T07:07:30Z edgar-rft: des_consolado: the BNF * star is explained in CLHS 1.4.1.2.1 Splicing in Modified BNF Syntax <http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/01_daba.htm>
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2016-09-20T07:13:31Z zshlyg: If you were to parse a tree of unknown size, using a recursive function could blow the stack. Can you (always) transform that function into some state-machine thing?
2016-09-20T07:14:32Z _death: you can always manage your own stack
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2016-09-20T07:19:20Z jasom: zshlyg: it depends; if you need to backtrack, you need some way of storing that.  If you only need to descend (e.g. finding an element in a binary search tree) then you can transform it into a fixed-space function
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2016-09-20T07:22:30Z zshlyg: The canonical example is parsing JSON, so no backtracking needed. I'm thinking about _death's proposal. Could I change the function so that when it wants to recurse it instead writes the next action in the user-stack, and returns (to some call-while-stack-not-empty-loop).
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2016-09-20T07:25:43Z jasom: zshlyg: walking an entire tree involves backtracking
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2016-09-20T07:26:39Z jasom: well, backtracking or forking.
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2016-09-20T07:28:09Z jasom: zshlyg: I think there is no way of getting around the fact that to walk an entire tree you need extra space proportional to the height of the tree.
2016-09-20T07:28:11Z zshlyg: jasom: ofcourse you're right! Thats why I need the stack, to store all continuations.
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2016-09-20T07:30:19Z jasom: zshlyg: as someone else said, the extra space need not be in your implementation's call-stack; you can always manually manage that space.  In the abstract it makes no difference, but for implementations with much smaller limits on call-stack size vs. heap size it can make a real-world difference
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2016-09-20T07:35:14Z zshlyg: jasom: Thanks! Yes, it seems the call-stack isn't so much limited by size rather than number of stack frames. That why the heap is prefered.
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2016-09-20T07:36:27Z jasom: There are implementations of languages in which the call-stack exists solely on the heap, but I'm not sure if any common-lisp implementations work that way.
2016-09-20T07:37:31Z zshlyg: jasom: that sounds like a terrible juggling of RSP/RBP registers, those imp's maybe are for exotic cpus?
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2016-09-20T07:38:53Z jasom: zshlyg: well one of the more creative implementations would be chicken scheme; it is a pure CPS implementation, so functions never return.  It thus uses the C call stack as the nursery for it's garbage collection; when an allocation would blow the stack, it does a 1st gen GC and resets the stack pointer.
2016-09-20T07:39:28Z jasom: zshlyg: for other implementations the function call instruction might not be CALL, but rather a JMP
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2016-09-20T07:41:26Z jasom: zshlyg: and on most risc-like instruction sets, whatever instruction is traditionally used for function calls often doesn't touch the stack either
2016-09-20T07:42:27Z jasom: (bl on ARM and Power, for example)
2016-09-20T07:42:39Z loke: jasom: I only knew that SPARC did that.
2016-09-20T07:43:07Z jasom: well sparc is more complicated because of register windows IIRC
2016-09-20T07:43:40Z loke: jasom: Well, SPARC and M68k are the only architectures I'm deeply familiar with :-)
2016-09-20T07:43:57Z jasom: Power and ARM for me :)
2016-09-20T07:44:07Z jasom: with some MIPS and x86 as well
2016-09-20T07:44:31Z loke: I'm looking at some ARM examples, and I can see the return address being pushed using a PUSH instruction, and the return is a POP. Doesn't that go on the stack?
2016-09-20T07:44:31Z jasom: but I wouldn't call the latter two "deep" anymore.  They were at one point though.
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2016-09-20T07:45:18Z jasom: loke: really?  that's not what I would call idiomatic
2016-09-20T07:45:35Z loke: jasom: I dunno. Found this: https://community.arm.com/groups/processors/blog/2010/02/26/how-to-call-a-function-from-arm-assembler
2016-09-20T07:46:04Z loke: jasom: So where is the return address stored on ARM?
2016-09-20T07:46:13Z jasom: usually multiple registers are saved simultanouesly with a store-multiple, and there's a version of that that updates the index register (which will nearly always be the sp) accordingly
2016-09-20T07:46:15Z zshlyg: jasom: I see mips has the jalr instruction, that jumps-and-links, but not sure if that instruction is in idiomatic use with function calls.
2016-09-20T07:46:32Z jasom: and it's almost certainly the current value of the link-register being pushed, *not* the return address
2016-09-20T07:46:36Z loke: jasom: Sure, but where is it stored? On the stack I'd presume?
2016-09-20T07:47:26Z jasom: loke: my point was that the single instruction used to make a function call does not touch the stack, not that function calls themselves don't touch the stack with the C ABI
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2016-09-20T07:48:15Z loke: jasom: Ah I see. On SPARC, a function call never touches the stack at all, even a recursive call, since the register window will be shifted.
2016-09-20T07:48:39Z loke: As far as I know this is fairly unique.
2016-09-20T07:48:52Z jasom: loke: and after looking at the code, notice it's the LR not the PC that is pushed.  If you have already saved the link-register then that would be redundant
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2016-09-20T07:49:55Z jasom: and the ARM ABI is less efficient in terms of leaf functions than the Power ABI; with the Power ABI you can use up to 8 registers without touching the stack in a leaf function.
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2016-09-20T07:50:33Z jasom: Power has more than double the registers of ARM, as ARM has 16, inclusive of the PC and Power has 32 exclusive of the PC
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2016-09-20T07:51:47Z jasom: And yes, on ARM, it is legal to branch by moving or loading a value to the PC the same as you would any GPR, which makes for some odd, but compact, assembly
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2016-09-20T07:52:27Z loke: I prefer the register windows and hundreds of registers :-)
2016-09-20T07:52:45Z loke: Recursive algorithms without doing any loads nor stores is pretty cool.
2016-09-20T07:53:00Z jasom: loke: which works great until you need to save registers to RAM for context switches :)
2016-09-20T07:53:43Z jasom: loke: the zilog z8 works in a similar manner with there being an offset to the register file as part of the state
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2016-09-20T07:55:09Z loke: jasom: True, but then the code simply needs to iterate over the windows and drop the registers onto the stack before the switch. It's also helped by the T-series processors having a huge number of "threads" (i.e. processor contexts)
2016-09-20T07:55:11Z jasom: loke: see the paper "Register Archtecture for multi-tasking Systems" for one idea of getting around that issue
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2016-09-20T07:57:25Z jasom: disclaimer: it's my Dad's PhD thesis
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2016-09-20T08:44:56Z p_l: loke: not sure about details on ARM at the moment, but if you 1) save all registers first, including return address 2) then use a call instruction that overwrites last return, it would work
2016-09-20T08:45:05Z p_l: but apparently LDM/SDM are enough
2016-09-20T08:45:47Z loke: p_l: Right, so you have to involve the stack when doing a function call.
2016-09-20T08:45:58Z p_l: ahh, r14 is the link register which contains return to caller. Save this on stack, BL to new code, restore after returning
2016-09-20T08:46:22Z p_l: loke: well, only if you want to return :D
2016-09-20T08:46:41Z loke: p_l: well, yes. Otherwise it'd be a jump. :-)
2016-09-20T08:47:10Z p_l: loke: I suspect there might be some insane programming methods where you only need last procedure ;)
2016-09-20T08:47:44Z loke: p_l: pure CSP?
2016-09-20T08:47:52Z p_l: probably
2016-09-20T08:48:18Z p_l: though Chicken Scheme uses backtrace internally despite never returning
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2016-09-20T10:46:42Z pipping: jasom: (I have yet to read the entire discussion between rpg and you but I have some comments on the first few lines you exchanged):
2016-09-20T10:47:10Z pipping: jasom: there are muliple ways to 'build asdf' and run the asdf tests.
2016-09-20T10:47:57Z pipping: jasom: ('building asdf' is essentially concatenating all the sources into a single asdf.lisp)
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2016-09-20T10:48:39Z pipping: jasom: on anything with make and a shell, you could use `make test`.
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2016-09-20T10:49:13Z pipping: jasom: you can also do away with `make` and use the shell only. but already that might be too much on windows (unless you're on windows 10 with bash)
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2016-09-20T10:52:09Z pipping: jasom: the shell is needed here to run the script test/run-tests.sh; there's an alternative, however: there's a lisp program called asdf-tools that can do all kinds of things; in particular, run the tests. that leaves only the problem of creating an asdf-tools executable
2016-09-20T10:53:29Z pipping: jasom: one way to create that is through make-asdf.sh (meh; shell again). another is make-asdf.bat, though. through that route, you shouldn't need any shell at all, if I'm not mistaken.
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2016-09-20T14:52:48Z xificurC: how much should one read into the results of the benchmarks game? ( http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/ ) Are the CL entries representative of what a seasoned CL-er would write to get maximum speed?
2016-09-20T14:53:49Z _death: I remember a critique about how the rules kept changing and so the entries required maintenance which wasn't always there
2016-09-20T14:54:14Z dlowe: I think the "game" aspect should give one pause.
2016-09-20T14:54:22Z dlowe: This isn't code that does useful things.
2016-09-20T14:54:38Z _death: but otherwise some clever lispers worked on solutions, so there may be something to learn there ;)
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2016-09-20T14:55:14Z xificurC: dlowe: from what I can see they are small benchmarks of algorithms I never heard of, so probably low-level :)
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2016-09-20T14:55:55Z xificurC: while they should be taken with a grain of salt I suppose they should show how does a language perform on intensive tasks
2016-09-20T14:56:48Z Grue``: clearly it depends a lot on the task
2016-09-20T14:57:28Z White_Flame: you can write asm in sbcl, so it all depends on how low level they wanted to get
2016-09-20T14:57:31Z Grue``: how can you know which benchmark your actual task is the closest to?
2016-09-20T14:58:44Z xificurC: I'm looking at it only to see how _low_ can a language go. Many of the language entries are quite high level, but not all of them allow to go as deep as e.g. CL does
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2016-09-20T14:59:42Z oGMo: CL doesn't go that low :P
2016-09-20T15:00:00Z xificurC: noone will complain on the benchmarks of C since it's already as low as most of the programmers will go
2016-09-20T15:00:11Z raydeejay: how low can a language go? take a look at PHP :D
2016-09-20T15:00:35Z oGMo: even counting most implementation specific things, which you must since CL itself is very high level
2016-09-20T15:00:37Z White_Flame: wait, are we talking about low level, or low quality? ;)
2016-09-20T15:00:40Z xificurC: anyway I was just interested if the numbers look OK or if they could be radically smaller with little to no effort
2016-09-20T15:00:41Z oGMo: raydeejay: hah
2016-09-20T15:01:26Z White_Flame: if C is 20x faster than the Lisp version, then yeah the Lisp times could be radically smaller with effort
2016-09-20T15:01:54Z White_Flame: how much effort of course depends on the problem
2016-09-20T15:02:30Z oGMo: White_Flame: depends, in the C relies on lots of C ABI that the lisp would also have to call, then 20x slower might not improve much heh
2016-09-20T15:02:37Z oGMo: but yes that
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2016-09-20T15:03:22Z dlowe: A lot of the "C" examples use things like the GNU math library which is packed with assembly optimizations.
2016-09-20T15:03:27Z oGMo: and obviously things can get as better as you want with unbounded and probably impractical amounts of work, like writing your own CL ;)
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2016-09-20T15:05:30Z xificurC: I was talking about standard effort a seasoned CLer would take to optimize tight code
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2016-09-20T15:07:12Z dlowe: I think the usual term is a standard microeffort, as an effort is too big a unit to be useful
2016-09-20T15:07:48Z oGMo: and again it entirely depends, some things you can make better without too much work, and some you can't. mostly in SBCL you DECLARE a lot and get some decent performance improvement, but you're not going to hit C or anywhere close except in very specific (and similarly-coded) places
2016-09-20T15:08:58Z oGMo: whether that is good enough is situational; fast enough is fast enough
2016-09-20T15:09:48Z xificurC: thanks for the answers
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2016-09-20T17:02:52Z emaczen:  How do
2016-09-20T17:03:11Z emaczen: How do I pass/access arguments to #'make-load-form?
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2016-09-20T17:07:14Z Grue``: from where?
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2016-09-20T18:16:45Z mnsewn: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-09-20T18:18:53Z raydeejay: 🎺
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2016-09-20T19:07:58Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: hi
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2016-09-20T19:11:43Z PuercoPop: ebrasca: hi
2016-09-20T19:12:11Z PuercoPop: reviewed your PR on Colesaw, first time using the review functionality
2016-09-20T19:17:12Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: do is valid lisp.
2016-09-20T19:17:19Z PuercoPop: btw in case it isn't clear, only the replacing asdf:load-system with quickload is a blocker, the others are more like suggestions.
2016-09-20T19:18:51Z PuercoPop: ebrasca: yes, it is (as well as eval). It is also not as clear as loop in that context imho. But as I said above, that is only a suggestion, not a necessary chage
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2016-09-20T19:25:02Z jackdaniel: today I would refactor the part of it into (line #1=(read v nil 'done) #1#)
2016-09-20T19:25:34Z jackdaniel: regarding using asdf - it's because I've deployed coleslaw as bundle in sclp configuration
2016-09-20T19:26:36Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if eval-when is 100% necessary, I'd check if it works without it (I don't remember why I have put it there)
2016-09-20T19:27:18Z jackdaniel: (quicklisp bundles doesn't require quicklisp)
2016-09-20T19:27:44Z jackdaniel: what shows a great adventage of quicklisp imho btw
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2016-09-20T19:28:36Z Xach: i like quicklisp bundles
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2016-09-20T19:29:58Z raydeejay: well, if *you* don't like them... xD
2016-09-20T19:31:30Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: yeah, but coleslaw's plugin design assumes/requires quicklisp. To ease deployment for users. The eval-when is required. Otherwise then the the plugin is loaded the reader will raise an error when the package created by the dependency is referenced iiuc
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2016-09-20T19:35:09Z jackdaniel: makes sense (the eval-when part :)
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2016-09-20T19:37:08Z jackdaniel: regarding the assumption, I would reconsider this decision to make it smarter (i.e or standalone application deploys w/o quicklisp - I have such binary myself for both mcclim and ecl websites)
2016-09-20T19:38:32Z jackdaniel: s/i.e or/i.e for/
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2016-09-20T19:41:29Z jackdaniel: but I guess you can deploy standalone executable with plugin loaded with dump-image
2016-09-20T19:41:45Z jackdaniel: either way, happily I'm not decisive here :)
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2016-09-20T19:43:40Z mordocai: A cool architecture (that is probably way overcomplicated) would be the plugins registering with coleslaw what systems they require and coleslaw attempting to load them with asdf and catching the not found error then providing a condition that will install it via quicklisp if you don't have it.
2016-09-20T19:44:06Z jackdaniel: I agree
2016-09-20T19:44:15Z jackdaniel: btw, coleslaw doesn't load on my quicklisp atm
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2016-09-20T19:44:27Z jackdaniel: not sure if it's something with my configuration or upstream
2016-09-20T19:44:30Z mordocai: Hmm... it did on mine last time I checked but that wasn't this dist
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2016-09-20T19:45:37Z mordocai: jackdaniel: Works for me on latest quicklisp dist, debian's sbcl 1.3.7 package
2016-09-20T19:45:43Z mordocai: Very little environment customization
2016-09-20T19:46:02Z jackdaniel: then it must be something with my (messy indeed) workspace
2016-09-20T19:47:07Z jackdaniel: "Package COLESLAW-CONF does not exist." and afaik ebrasca has the very same error
2016-09-20T19:47:44Z jackdaniel: (dist "2016-08-25")
2016-09-20T19:47:49Z jackdaniel: good night o/
2016-09-20T19:47:57Z mordocai: Interesting. Yeah, i'm not getting that.
2016-09-20T19:48:07Z PuercoPop: mordocai: I've tried doing something like having a a asdf system-class to 'signal'/register that a system is a plugin but had trouble with ASDF. Don't remember what example
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2016-09-20T19:50:23Z jasom: dlowe: I took one sample from the programming languages benchmarks game and made the CL result quite a bit faster (this was several years ago, so don't recall the exact numbers).
2016-09-20T19:51:28Z dlowe: sure, my point was just that you shouldn't be basing any opinions or decisions off of some internet competition, no matter who is winning.
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2016-09-20T19:52:27Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: you are right, I'll investigate
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2016-09-20T19:57:36Z PuercoPop: Weird doing git -Scoleslaw-conf brings 3a5d2d1c6 as the latest commit w/ that text and it is from 2013. Well It is seems a quickfix
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2016-09-20T19:58:54Z PuercoPop: ok, it should be created on the ASDF file. Why not use system-relative-pathname instead?
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2016-09-20T20:16:42Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: I have done your desired changes.
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2016-09-20T20:17:12Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/ce04ab74a5ddbb3f78782978383d0f4e when using this queue I find that (queue-size) returns an incremental number with a single thread enqueueing. but if more than one thread is enqueueing queue-length eventually stops updating with larger values and returns same value every time
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2016-09-20T20:22:03Z _death: do you know about protecting access to shared state
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2016-09-20T20:22:42Z raydeejay: you hire some muscle
2016-09-20T20:22:46Z raydeejay: with guns
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2016-09-20T20:29:37Z PuercoPop: ebrasca: Thanks
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2016-09-20T20:30:48Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: I don't why the package was defined in the ASDFfile, that is why I asked kingcons about his overarching goal
2016-09-20T20:31:39Z jackdaniel: right, I hope he'll explain it (I'm bit confused, but he may have a good rationale, who knows)
2016-09-20T20:32:03Z jackdaniel: I've clarified the license (I think mordocai raised some doubts about that in his project)
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2016-09-20T20:42:05Z mordocai: jackdaniel: Yeah, i just kind of went with attribution in my README and then do whatever I want lol.
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2016-09-20T22:25:26Z PuercoPop: mordocai: jackdaniel Btw I've submitted a fix for the coleslaw-conf doesn't exist issue. If you don't mind could you test it? https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw/pull/111
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2016-09-20T23:03:53Z superancetre: hi, is there a way to evaluate things in case clause? example: (case c ((+ 1 1) (print "foo"))). I'd like to evaluate (+ 1 1) as 2 ? Or do i need to bind the result with let before the case?
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2016-09-20T23:08:13Z Quadresce: superancetre, even binding with LET will not help
2016-09-20T23:08:22Z Quadresce: CASE clauses need constant expressions that compare with EQL
2016-09-20T23:09:34Z pillton: alexandria's switch allows you to do that.
2016-09-20T23:09:38Z Quadresce: superancetre, Check out ALEXANDRIA:SWITCH
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2016-09-20T23:12:52Z superancetre: thanks pillton and Quadresce, i'll look into it
2016-09-20T23:15:20Z Quadresce: superancetre, (alexandria:switch (c) ((+ 1 1) (print "foo")))
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2016-09-20T23:19:50Z superancetre: Quadresce great thank you!
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2016-09-20T23:36:33Z Quadresce: is there any robust WHITESPACEP function, that isn't using the :WHITESPACE-CHAR-CLASS of CL-PPCRE?
2016-09-20T23:38:12Z Quadresce: Secondly, is there a way to use CL-PPCRE on streams?
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2016-09-20T23:48:22Z pipping: Quadresce: what are you targetting? unicode?
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2016-09-20T23:50:28Z pipping: what do you mean by robust? checking (member ... '(#\Space #\Tab #\Newline)) is probably not what you're looking for. What do you not like about it, though?
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2016-09-21T02:22:28Z ahungry: there are some invisible unicode characters that I guess could be considered whitespace, so probably that
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2016-09-21T02:27:46Z Bike: on sbcl you could do sb-unicode:whitespace-p, which checks the WSPACE property i assume. dunno if there's a wrapper.
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2016-09-21T03:13:57Z jasom: p_l: loke: you do not need the stack involved on a function call unless you need to preseve some registers.  The return address is saved to r14 on a BL instruction.
2016-09-21T03:14:51Z jasom: p_l: loke: one example would be any function that you never return from won't need to save r14 to the stack; similarly any function that will make multiple function calls will likely only save r14 once.
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2016-09-21T03:20:09Z jasom: under the standard arm abi, a function that never returns could simply move r14 to r4 and then call bl to make a function call.  The callee is required to ensure that r4-r13 (with some exceptions) are either untouched or restored before returning.
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2016-09-21T03:30:56Z loke: jasom: Right, but how do you you do a recursive call without touching the stack (if you're on a CPU other than SPARC)
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2016-09-21T03:32:10Z jasom: loke: you can't
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2016-09-21T03:32:21Z jasom: as I said the other day.  Obviously on sparc you eventually touch the stack too
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2016-09-21T03:33:44Z loke: jasom: Once the register windows run out, yes.
2016-09-21T03:33:59Z loke: jasom: But you can go pretty deep before that happens.
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2016-09-21T04:21:58Z PuercoPop: If I want to verify the name of the first directory 'upwards', is (car (last (pathname-directory #P<path>))) the best way to do it?
2016-09-21T04:23:39Z jasom: uiop:pathname-parent-directory-pathname
2016-09-21T04:24:08Z jasom: PuercoPop: though it depends what you mean by "upwards"
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2016-09-21T04:24:35Z pillton: And verify?
2016-09-21T04:24:47Z pillton: Truename would verify the existence of the directory.
2016-09-21T04:25:07Z jasom: "/foo/bar/baz/../" is not the same as "/foo/bar/" on unix systems, and I don't know that lisp has a way of distinguishing
2016-09-21T04:26:12Z PuercoPop: jasom: pathname-parent-directory-pathname returns the pathname sans the first "upwards" directory
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2016-09-21T04:26:48Z jasom: PuercoPop: can you give an example of what you want, because I may be misunderstanding
2016-09-21T04:26:50Z PuercoPop: basically I'm writing a test to verify the pathname pointed to by a variable is in the directory by name of coleslaw
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2016-09-21T04:27:16Z jasom: PuercoPop: I totally failed to parse that sentence
2016-09-21T04:27:42Z jasom: PuercoPop: could you give an example that would pass, and a similar example that would fail?
2016-09-21T04:27:55Z PuercoPop: so I don't care if it is in .local/share/c-l/.../coleslaw or in quicklisp/l-p/coleslaw
2016-09-21T04:27:57Z Bike: you have the name of a file, and you want to get the name of the directory it's immediately in?
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2016-09-21T04:28:06Z PuercoPop: but I do care that is is not in ../coleslaw/src
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2016-09-21T04:29:02Z PuercoPop: Bike: kind of, I already have the directory it is in. I want to verify that that directory is named coleslaw
2016-09-21T04:30:44Z pillton: (pathname-match-p <input> "../coleslaw/src/**/*.*") ?
2016-09-21T04:30:57Z jasom: PuercoPop: what about foo/coleslaw/bar/../ ?
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2016-09-21T04:31:16Z loke: PuercoPop: (equal (car (last (pathname-directory XX)) "coleslaw") perhaps?
2016-09-21T04:31:34Z PuercoPop: this is what I am doing http://paste.lisp.org/+701T
2016-09-21T04:31:57Z loke: Looks like what I was doing
2016-09-21T04:32:01Z PuercoPop: loke: yes, that is what I am doing, I wanted to check there was nothing wrong with that. I haven't had the pleasure of working much with pathnames
2016-09-21T04:32:04Z jasom: PuercoPop: aside from my last example, that looks good
2016-09-21T04:32:12Z loke: PuercoPop: It's the best you can do.
2016-09-21T04:32:16Z PuercoPop: jasom: your example should fail
2016-09-21T04:32:28Z loke: PuercoPop: Trying to be more clever than that is bound to fail even more.
2016-09-21T04:32:42Z jasom: PuercoPop: if my example should fail, then you're code is right
2016-09-21T04:32:47Z jasom: s/you're/your
2016-09-21T04:33:40Z pillton: It seems rather fragile. Why not test for the existence of a file which should be in Coleslaw's top level directory?
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2016-09-21T04:34:46Z PuercoPop: pillton: good idea, I'll add that
2016-09-21T04:35:26Z pillton: Then you could do (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :name ... :type ... :directory '(:relative :up)) coleslaw-conf:*basedir*).
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2016-09-21T06:38:58Z jackdaniel: good morning o/
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2016-09-21T06:50:35Z jasom: any good solution for a non-interning reader?  I would like to e.g. be able to read in foo::bar as "BAR"
2016-09-21T06:50:52Z jasom: but also bar or "BAR"
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2016-09-21T06:55:28Z PuercoPop: jasom: If you don't care about the package you could gensym a new package, read in it, get the symbol-name and delete it. Or am I misunderstanding your problem?
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2016-09-21T06:56:08Z jasom: PuercoPop: I am trying to read in a string-designator as a string.  I do not know ahead of time what the package is, if it's a symbol or a string.
2016-09-21T06:56:35Z jasom: so "BAR" :bar bar foo:bar foo::bar ; should all read in as "BAR"
2016-09-21T06:57:13Z jasom: at this point I'm giving up and using a regex
2016-09-21T06:57:40Z pillton: clhs 2.2
2016-09-21T06:57:41Z specbot: Reader Algorithm: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm
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2016-09-21T06:59:26Z jasom: pillton: and?
2016-09-21T06:59:43Z jasom: oh, I forgot to mention that package foo may or may not exist
2016-09-21T06:59:51Z jasom: which is where the real issue is
2016-09-21T07:00:27Z pillton: I'm just seeing what you could chop off of the reader algorithm.
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2016-09-21T07:01:07Z jasom: ah yes, I could reimplement the reader algorithm and then just skip the interning step.
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2016-09-21T07:01:33Z pillton: Yeah. No need for interpreting numbers, no need for reader macros.
2016-09-21T07:01:54Z jasom: I think using a parsing library would make more sense though since I don't need 99% of the reader algorithm
2016-09-21T07:04:24Z pillton: Sure. It looks like it is split in to two steps any way.
2016-09-21T07:04:46Z pillton: 1. Making sure it isn't a number, then interpreting the symbol token.
2016-09-21T07:04:49Z pillton: clhs 2.3.5
2016-09-21T07:04:50Z specbot: Valid Patterns for Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm
2016-09-21T07:05:08Z pillton: Anyway, time to go home.
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2016-09-21T10:38:05Z macin: i dont know if its the right place to ask this question but i hope that i get some answers. i have a 'list' containing (x,y) coordinates. i want to get all the those coordinates along the edge. how can i get that???
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2016-09-21T10:38:28Z pipping: "along the edge"?
2016-09-21T10:38:36Z macin: yes
2016-09-21T10:38:39Z pipping: like, extreme points?
2016-09-21T10:38:49Z pipping: of a polygon?
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2016-09-21T10:39:02Z macin: i mean all points along the perimeter
2016-09-21T10:39:29Z macin: not the interior ones
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2016-09-21T10:40:24Z |3b|: can you define a function to tell if a specific point is on the edge/perimeter?
2016-09-21T10:40:40Z |3b|: if so, combine that with REMOVE-IF-NOT
2016-09-21T10:41:32Z TMA: macin: search for "convex hull" algorithm
2016-09-21T10:41:34Z pipping: macin: so that's a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_in_polygon problem, right?
2016-09-21T10:41:54Z pipping: macin: to which end you'll need https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convex_hull_algorithms I guess
2016-09-21T10:42:59Z shrdlu68: Someone here used cl-xmpp?
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2016-09-21T10:44:31Z mrSpec: Hi! Have anyone used mgl? I'm trying to run mnist example from that package, I'm able to run in in shell but when using emacs+slime my connection is dying quickly - http://paste.lisp.org/display/326693
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2016-09-21T10:44:46Z mrSpec: s/Have/Has/
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2016-09-21T10:48:43Z macin: TMA, pipping : thanks
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2016-09-21T10:52:52Z Grue``: Quadrescence: re: robust whitespace function, (cl-unicode:has-property char "WhiteSpace")
2016-09-21T10:53:10Z Grue``: (assuming Quadresce is the same person)
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2016-09-21T10:57:16Z Grue``: minion: memo for macin: if for each line from a point to any other point all the points are on the same side, then this point is on the edge of the convex hull
2016-09-21T10:57:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell macin when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-09-21T11:20:09Z pillton: macin never said that the points represented a convex shape.
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2016-09-21T11:35:40Z Josh_2: Is anyone at the Edinburgh nappier cryptography conference?
2016-09-21T11:38:01Z Josh_2 is now known as Josh_3
2016-09-21T11:38:02Z Josh_3: Test
2016-09-21T11:38:41Z Josh_3: Stupid crappy internets
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2016-09-21T11:41:38Z pipping: It's just a serious of tubes. Some might be clogged.
2016-09-21T11:41:44Z pipping: series, even
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2016-09-21T11:42:15Z raydeejay: it's serious series matter
2016-09-21T11:42:41Z raydeejay: and yes, I am contributing to Clog the internet ^^
2016-09-21T11:43:39Z pipping: it's not /that/ serious. I think the ratio of leaked NSA documents to kitty pictures is still approximately 1:1,000,000
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2016-09-21T13:20:24Z drmeister: When I'm writing functions and I know the types of the arguments - it is best to DECLARE that - correct?
2016-09-21T13:20:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GbK9XgWG/
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2016-09-21T13:23:03Z drmeister: Right?   The compiler may use the DECLARE to speed up the code, it provides documentation - it's all good right?
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2016-09-21T13:28:14Z Xach: drmeister: It also makes things harder to change in the future
2016-09-21T13:28:23Z Xach: drmeister: it's a balance between needs & desires & priorities
2016-09-21T13:28:35Z drmeister: Ah - ok.    Does such a declare define the type of the function?
2016-09-21T13:29:02Z drmeister: I've kind of wrapped my head around types within functions but types of functions I'm still trying to figure out.
2016-09-21T13:29:17Z Xach: drmeister: I think only ftype declarations do that, but I'm not sure.
2016-09-21T13:29:27Z rtmpdavid: Also you can add (optimize speed) to the declarations, (some?) compilers will complain about things that prevent optimizations.
2016-09-21T13:29:29Z drmeister: Right - ftype.
2016-09-21T13:29:54Z Xach: drmeister: I have heard to treat declarations as promises to the compiler & runtime, and the consequences are undefined if you break that promise. Only on some implementations are they treated as assertions that must hold.
2016-09-21T13:30:22Z Xach: If you want portable type assertions you can use check-type and more
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2016-09-21T13:31:48Z rpg: Xach: Am I right in thinking that SBCL and CMUCL are unusual in performing substantial type inference to check these assertions?
2016-09-21T13:32:12Z XachX_: rpg: that is my impression but cannot confirm
2016-09-21T13:32:29Z rpg: TBH, while I'm not ready for Haskell yet, I wouldn't mind a little more help from the compiler.
2016-09-21T13:32:59Z drmeister: bike implemented type inference in Cleavir - I haven't moved it into Clasp yet to try it out.  I hope to have time for it in two weeks.
2016-09-21T13:35:20Z drmeister: I think FTYPE declarations could be used by the compiler to change the calling convention to do things like pass double-float's as immediate values rather than as pointers to boxed values.
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2016-09-21T13:37:01Z drmeister: That's what I'd like to do in Cando/Clasp - to use some of those X86 xmm registers.
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2016-09-21T13:40:00Z rpg: drmeister: That's exactly what the language specifiers intended.  Using declarations to do compile-time checking is an extension (possibly even a controversial one).
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2016-09-21T14:33:13Z solene___: hello, I would like to input text into the REPL wihout having it echoed after typing ENTER. Is it possible to achieve that ?
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2016-09-21T15:01:48Z solene___: hello, I would like to input text into the REPL wihout having it echoed after typing ENTER. Is it possible to achieve that ?
2016-09-21T15:02:09Z rpg: solene___: Why do you want to do this?
2016-09-21T15:02:38Z rpg: Do you want the whole REPL to work this way, or do you just want to suppress some individual piece of input?
2016-09-21T15:02:59Z solene___: I am writing an IRC client, actually when I type the text I send it to the server but I would like to display it correctly because my input is the raw input into the REPL
2016-09-21T15:03:10Z solene___: while I want to display my nickname and time before the text I input
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2016-09-21T15:06:14Z solene___: this doesn't look pretty well as you can see http://i.zcraft.fr/820801474470365.png
2016-09-21T15:06:24Z raydeejay: woah
2016-09-21T15:06:34Z raydeejay: for a second there I thought "wth happened to the fonts"
2016-09-21T15:06:39Z raydeejay: yay erc-image-mode xD
2016-09-21T15:06:51Z rpg: solene___: Suggest you have a look at the beirc client that Antifuchs wrote a long time ago, and maybe build on that.
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2016-09-21T15:07:43Z rpg: It's not obvious that pushing IRC messages through the REPL is A Good Idea.
2016-09-21T15:08:04Z raydeejay: what a weird way to put it
2016-09-21T15:08:11Z solene___: rpg : I have no idea how to do in another way
2016-09-21T15:08:21Z solene___: rpg : i will check beirc
2016-09-21T15:08:37Z rpg: Have your client run a loop  involving using READ-LINE or something like that.
2016-09-21T15:08:42Z rpg: beirc uses McCLIM.
2016-09-21T15:08:52Z solene___: rpg : this is what my code currently do
2016-09-21T15:09:02Z solene___: ok, so I'm not using the REPL
2016-09-21T15:09:06Z solene___: right ?
2016-09-21T15:09:10Z raydeejay: you are using "a repl"
2016-09-21T15:09:10Z rpg: solene___: right.
2016-09-21T15:09:24Z raydeejay: in that it is a "read, eval, print" loop of sorts
2016-09-21T15:09:30Z rpg: raydeejay: if solene___ is using READ-LINE, it's not a REPL.
2016-09-21T15:09:57Z solene___: yes I'm using read-line. is it possible to hide my input with read-line ? I couldn't find a way
2016-09-21T15:10:17Z rpg: solene___: I think it depends on the stream you are READ-LINE-ing from.
2016-09-21T15:10:17Z solene___: or something else than read-line
2016-09-21T15:10:19Z raydeejay: it depends on how flexible you are in defining "eval"... I'll say REPL-ish, can we agree to that? xD
2016-09-21T15:10:54Z rpg: raydeejay: Not really.  READ-LINE doesn't have the -EPL
2016-09-21T15:11:22Z solene___: actually I use (loop for input = (read-line) while input do
2016-09-21T15:11:31Z raydeejay: I was describing ^
2016-09-21T15:11:34Z rpg: sorry, must run. solene___, suggest you look at setting up a different stream and reading from that.
2016-09-21T15:11:40Z raydeejay: ^
2016-09-21T15:11:43Z solene___: okay
2016-09-21T15:11:55Z solene___: thanks for your help rpg and raydeejay
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2016-09-21T15:12:10Z rpg: Not off-hand sure I know how to connect a different stream to the terminal, but I'm sure it must be possible.
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2016-09-21T15:16:43Z raydeejay: um, to display your name before entering your text, do it before the read-line
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2016-09-21T15:17:22Z solene___: raydejay : this is not possible because if someone else write a message it will be displayed with my name before
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2016-09-21T15:18:00Z solene___: my code use multithread, one to display incoming messages and another one for my input
2016-09-21T15:19:14Z raydeejay: if *I* was doing it, I would do something like removing the prompt, printing the incoming messages, then printing the prompt again
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2016-09-21T15:19:35Z raydeejay: I would be using ansi sequences already for color, not sure what you're using
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2016-09-21T15:21:12Z solene___: raydeejay : the code is here http://paste.lisp.org/display/326705
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2016-09-21T15:23:05Z phoe_: (swank-backend:arglist '+) on CCL gives me a very surprising and, methinks, non-compliant arglist.
2016-09-21T15:24:20Z phoe_: But then - fetching argument lists from functions is not defined in the standard AFAIK, so there's no thing such as compliance in this case.
2016-09-21T15:24:34Z phoe_: ; => (CCL::&LEXPR CCL::NUMBERS)
2016-09-21T15:25:09Z phoe_: Which makes my matcher fail, as it knows only a &REST and doesn't know what a &LEXPR is. I googled for a bit and found that these two are roughly the same in this case.
2016-09-21T15:28:22Z phoe_ has to run, will be online as phoe
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2016-09-21T15:38:29Z raydeejay: solene___: try (cl-ansi-term::clear-input) before printing the incoming messages, then print the prompt again [absolutely untested, I just saw the function there]
2016-09-21T15:39:08Z raydeejay: I rolled my own thing for ANSI escape sequences
2016-09-21T15:39:47Z solene___: raydeejay : that would erase my text if I type while people send messages isn't it ?
2016-09-21T15:40:06Z raydeejay: well, yes
2016-09-21T15:40:23Z raydeejay: as I said, it's a rather naive implementation on an IRC client ^^
2016-09-21T15:40:25Z raydeejay: of*
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2016-09-21T15:41:10Z raydeejay: you can use either ERC-style where you type in the text directly, and new lines are displayed above your input until you send the message
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2016-09-21T15:41:31Z solene___: I havent been able to get cl-ncurses to compile :( it can't find my curse library
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2016-09-21T15:41:47Z raydeejay: or the more "traditional"(?) style where your messages go on a line by themselves, and the channel's log is shown on the rest of the screen
2016-09-21T15:42:10Z raydeejay: with both, you want to keep track of the input in some way
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2016-09-21T15:42:23Z raydeejay: you may want, for example, to have input history and move to previous messages
2016-09-21T15:42:43Z solene___: i'm using rlwrap for that, it does the job, actually
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2016-09-21T15:49:30Z raydeejay: um it's GPL :-/
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2016-09-21T15:50:20Z raydeejay: suddenly I feel a need to go over my own thing again :D
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2016-09-21T16:00:03Z mordocai: solene___: cl-charms is the new cl-ncurses btw
2016-09-21T16:00:07Z mordocai: And it works for me
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2016-09-21T16:01:58Z solene___: mordocai : I tried cl-charms and I get this error : Unable to load any of the alternatives: ("libncursesw.so.6" "libncursesw.so.5")
2016-09-21T16:02:05Z solene___: I'm not sure what to do to get it working
2016-09-21T16:03:50Z mordocai: solene___: Your lib paths aren't setup right then or you don't have ncurses installed correctly. Basically, something system related is wrong there most likely.
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2016-09-21T16:04:48Z solene___: mordocai : I have a /usr/lib/libncursesw.so.14.0 installed from OpenBSD packages
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2016-09-21T16:05:37Z solene___: it's not even from packages, it's from base system ^^
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2016-09-21T16:35:57Z yottabyte: is lisp bad for game development
2016-09-21T16:36:01Z yottabyte: like 3d games and stuff
2016-09-21T16:36:34Z White_Flame: the language is fine for stuff like that, and people are using it for games.  However, the software ecosystem isn't as built up w.r.t engines and such, compared to other languages
2016-09-21T16:36:56Z phoe: yottabyte: #lispgames
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2016-09-21T16:38:52Z yottabyte: let's make an engine
2016-09-21T16:39:09Z yottabyte: because my friends will be like you can't make a game with immutable objects, too much memory is used, too much overhead, etc, etc
2016-09-21T16:39:22Z yottabyte: you need to be able to change objects on the fly
2016-09-21T16:39:34Z yottabyte: does cl use immutable/persistent data structures
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2016-09-21T16:40:31Z axion: just join #lispgames and check out the 3d projects
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2016-09-21T16:48:33Z phoe: yottabyte: depends on you.
2016-09-21T16:48:39Z phoe: many, many things in CL depend on the programmer.
2016-09-21T16:48:56Z phoe: you want immutable data? sure thing, you simply don't modify it.
2016-09-21T16:49:04Z phoe: and you have quite a lot of tools that help you with that.
2016-09-21T16:49:12Z phoe: you want mutable data? sure thing, you simply modify it.
2016-09-21T16:49:14Z phoe: and you have quite a lot of tools that help you with that.
2016-09-21T16:49:40Z phoe: you want your own definition of mutability and immutability that doesn't suit the "existing" definitions? sure thing, define it, because Lisp allows you to extend itself.
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2016-09-21T16:49:46Z phoe: and you have quite a lot of tools that help you with that.
2016-09-21T16:50:16Z phoe: tl;dr you can be functional where you want/need to be functional, objective where you want/need to be objective, actor-based where you want/need to be actor-based, and hell, use GOTO where you want/need to use GOTO.
2016-09-21T16:50:25Z phoe: oh, and that list's modifiable.
2016-09-21T16:50:52Z raydeejay: and the pony
2016-09-21T16:50:55Z raydeejay: you forgot the pony
2016-09-21T16:51:03Z phoe: and the pony, yes.
2016-09-21T16:51:34Z shrdlu68: Racking my brains trying to work with cl-xmpp.
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2016-09-21T16:52:15Z shrdlu68: Dear Lord Cthulhu it simply does not work, and the conditions are generic 'simple-condition
2016-09-21T16:53:42Z shrdlu68: No text or helpful naming.
2016-09-21T16:53:56Z yottabyte: wait you can be not fully functional in lisp?
2016-09-21T16:53:59Z yottabyte: you can make mutable objects?
2016-09-21T16:54:03Z raydeejay: sure
2016-09-21T16:54:10Z yottabyte: wow
2016-09-21T16:54:13Z raydeejay: you can make objects mutable only on mondays
2016-09-21T16:55:12Z raydeejay: common lisp is not obsessed with functional programming
2016-09-21T16:56:23Z mordocai: yottabyte: Common Lisp is quite possibly the most multi-paradigm/flexible language in existence. Certainly out of the languages I know
2016-09-21T16:56:48Z shrdlu68: Surpassed only by plankalkuel.
2016-09-21T16:57:12Z raydeejay: "that still exists in the 21st century"
2016-09-21T16:57:39Z mordocai didn't know about Plankalkül
2016-09-21T16:57:55Z raydeejay: oh wow someone is still churning out implementations? :D
2016-09-21T16:58:25Z shrdlu68: It would be tragic if someone weren't.
2016-09-21T16:59:09Z raydeejay: it looks horrible, though
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2016-09-21T17:01:44Z shrdlu68: Come now, the syntax facilitates a powerful macro system ;-D
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2016-09-21T17:02:16Z shrdlu68: Lisp's merely allows you to change the reader's behavior. Plankalkul's allows you to add processor features. :)
2016-09-21T17:02:35Z raydeejay: ok, the wikipedia example looks horrible, then
2016-09-21T17:02:45Z shrdlu68: kidding.
2016-09-21T17:03:00Z shrdlu68: It really does look hideous.
2016-09-21T17:03:14Z raydeejay: oh so you're actually slightly sane
2016-09-21T17:03:15Z raydeejay: xD
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2016-09-21T17:05:09Z shrdlu68: :D
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2016-09-21T17:40:58Z pipping: please don't mistake necessary sanity criteria for sufficient ones
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2016-09-21T17:44:13Z phoe: jackdaniel: what non-standard lambda-list keywords does ECL have?
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2016-09-21T17:45:34Z rpg: &dietary-supplement
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2016-09-21T17:47:05Z phoe: rpg: geez
2016-09-21T17:48:43Z jackdaniel: why would it have any non-standard keywords?
2016-09-21T17:48:57Z phoe: jackdaniel: because CCL does, for example
2016-09-21T17:49:00Z jackdaniel: (except &dietary-supplement which is clearly needed)
2016-09-21T17:49:18Z phoe: so now I'm a bit paranoid
2016-09-21T17:49:54Z dwchandler: I had to make a compatibility layer just to support &dietary-supplement on other implementations
2016-09-21T17:50:02Z phoe: because (SWANK-BACKEND:ARGLIST #'+) gave me a surprise on CCL.
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2016-09-21T17:55:07Z PuercoPop: phoe: what is your over-arching goal for matching lambda-lists? (I assume this is related to the other day?)
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2016-09-21T17:59:08Z phoe: PuercoPop: I have input to my program in form of SEXPRs that follow the pattern (COMMAND . ARGUMENTS).
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2016-09-21T18:00:07Z phoe: I actually needed some time to figure out that I can just grab the COMMAND, map it into a function implementing said command, check whether the ARGUMENTS are valid arguments for that function, and fire the function with the arguments.
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2016-09-21T18:00:28Z phoe: I had trouble figuring out how to do the "valid arguments" part.
2016-09-21T18:00:48Z phoe: Then I think it was you who pointed out TRIVIA's LAMBDA-LIST matcher to me.
2016-09-21T18:00:59Z phoe: And actually wrote a bit of code.
2016-09-21T18:01:31Z phoe: The fun thing is: try running (verify-arguments #'+ 1 2 3 4) on CCL. It returns NIL.
2016-09-21T18:01:47Z mordocai: Are these declaim statements going to work globally the way I hope if i'm doing sbcl --load start-<whichever>.lisp? https://gitlab.com/mordocai/forever-game-roguelike/blob/master/start-game.lisp and https://gitlab.com/mordocai/forever-game-roguelike/blob/master/start-dev.lisp.
2016-09-21T18:02:09Z mordocai is not very familiar with optimization settings
2016-09-21T18:02:09Z phoe: The good part is, I define my own functions, at which point I need not care about some custom implementation-defined lambda-list keyword like CCL's &LEXPR.
2016-09-21T18:02:32Z phoe: But nonetheless, #'+ has a weirddd lambda list on CCL.
2016-09-21T18:02:55Z phoe: PuercoPop: so that's all, I think.
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2016-09-21T18:10:47Z PuercoPop: so you don't need to handle non-standard keywords? Bike's lambda-list parsing had some extension points for non-standard keywords if you need it,
2016-09-21T18:11:30Z phoe: I don't need to handle non-standard keywords, luckily.
2016-09-21T18:11:50Z phoe: So I also don't need Bike's library with my current needs.
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2016-09-21T18:22:28Z emaczen: How do I specialize a method on a 2-dimensional array or is that not possible?
2016-09-21T18:26:55Z Xach: emaczen: 2-dimensional array is a type but not a class
2016-09-21T18:27:14Z Xach: emaczen: not possible without extra work
2016-09-21T18:28:08Z emaczen: Xach: What would the extra work be?
2016-09-21T18:28:45Z Xach: emaczen: I'm not sure, but I wouldn't say "no" in light of the MOP and the ability to hack the implementation.
2016-09-21T18:29:21Z phoe: emaczen: the idea I thought of is to wrap the array in a class instance, but that's more of a workaround
2016-09-21T18:29:44Z phoe: (defclass array-wrapper () (array)) and specialize on array-wrapper.
2016-09-21T18:29:55Z emaczen: I've read somewhere that some implementations let you write methods for predefined functions -- are you aware of any such implementations?
2016-09-21T18:29:56Z phoe: except that all of standard array functions won't work on it.
2016-09-21T18:30:35Z Xach: emaczen: there are a number of predefined generic functions, but that's standard stuff, not special
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2016-09-21T18:31:27Z emaczen: Xach: I mean non-generic functions, like you could create a customized data-structure that is "mappable" and then define the map method for it and use it just like #'map
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2016-09-21T18:31:56Z emaczen: Xach: So the implementation would define the non-generic functions that you see in SBCL for example, as generic functions.
2016-09-21T18:32:04Z rpg: emaczen: Maybe you are referring to things like ADVICE and FUNCTION-WRAPPERs
2016-09-21T18:32:18Z Xach: emaczen: sbcl has extensible sequence functions, but it doesn't make standard functions generic, it adds new system functions to do it.
2016-09-21T18:32:28Z rpg: Those don't change the underlying function, but allow you to redefine them pretty arbitrarily.
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2016-09-21T18:32:52Z emaczen: rpg: Where can I find information about these?
2016-09-21T18:33:40Z rpg: I don't believe that there is a portable DEFADVICE (but I could be wrong).  Allegro has FWRAPPERS, SBCL has a wrappers, too, but I'm not sure to what extent they are exposed to programmers.
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2016-09-21T18:40:55Z rpg: DEFADVICE exists in emacs-lisp, and was sort of a thing in other lisps, but I don't know of a portable one.  Anyone?
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2016-09-21T18:49:42Z PuercoPop: rpg: I only know ccl provides it
2016-09-21T18:49:51Z rpg: neat!
2016-09-21T18:50:08Z rpg: ACL has it, but they are trying to wean us onto FWRAPPERS
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2016-09-21T18:52:00Z rpg: Note that advice would probably not be a particularly efficient way to overload things for mapping. I guess you could simply replace the functions you want with an advice call to a generic function.
2016-09-21T18:52:30Z rpg: IIRC getting more generalized mapping was one of the things that Hickey wanted to achieve with Clojure.
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2016-09-21T19:11:38Z mordocai: Is there an easy way (in lisp) to force ql:quickload to tell asdf to force a recompile when loading a system?
2016-09-21T19:11:55Z mordocai only specifies "in lisp" so people don't tell him to delete the cache
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2016-09-21T19:12:33Z jackdaniel: mordocai: asdf:clear-system
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2016-09-21T19:12:56Z jackdaniel: (at least I hope it will help)
2016-09-21T19:13:13Z mordocai: jackdaniel: I'll try it, one sec
2016-09-21T19:13:42Z jackdaniel: hrm, or maybe it just removes the system from asdf? not sure
2016-09-21T19:15:27Z mordocai: jackdaniel: Yeah, doesn't seem to be doing the trick.
2016-09-21T19:16:03Z Xach: mordocai: you can use (asdf:load-system ... :force t), I think.
2016-09-21T19:16:11Z Xach: But I think that recompiles everything.
2016-09-21T19:16:19Z phoe: mordocai: http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2008-06/msg00886.html
2016-09-21T19:16:24Z phoe: oh
2016-09-21T19:16:27Z phoe: Xach just quoted the same thing
2016-09-21T19:16:33Z mordocai: Xach: That's fine for my use case, but can I pass that through quicklisp somehow?
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2016-09-21T19:16:49Z Xach: mordocai: no. but once you've quickloaded something once, you can use asdf directly to load it.
2016-09-21T19:16:58Z mordocai: Yeah.
2016-09-21T19:17:33Z rpg: Xach: That :force T only recompiles the system itself.
2016-09-21T19:17:48Z rpg: ":force :all" does the system and all its dependencies.
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2016-09-21T19:17:56Z Xach: Ok, thanks for clarifying.
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2016-09-21T19:18:10Z Xach: Has that behavior changed from what it originally was?
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2016-09-21T19:18:56Z mordocai: rpg: Xach: :force t is the behaviour I wanted so yay.
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2016-09-21T19:21:57Z mordocai: This is what i'm doing right now, if anyone is curious https://gitlab.com/mordocai/forever-game-roguelike/commit/a878237d1507d0b1c9e54b5a3dec0c9a22095ae7
2016-09-21T19:22:04Z mordocai: Seems to work
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2016-09-21T19:29:19Z jasom: Short of using a :function entry, is there a way to have the asdf output translation look in two places for a fasl?
2016-09-21T19:29:46Z jasom: e.g. look in /usr/lib/asdf-cache/... and if the file isn't there, look in ~/.cache/common-lisp/...
2016-09-21T19:30:04Z jasom: I can obviously do this with a function and probe-file.
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2016-09-21T19:33:07Z pipping: jasom: (sorry, unrelated to your question) did you see my comments on make-asdf.bat? did that work/help?
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2016-09-21T19:55:49Z mordocai: Btw, was there a method I missed for just "globally" setting compiler settings? Because for my game that's kind've what I want anyway. I want max debug for everything when developing and max optimizations when production running it.
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2016-09-21T20:19:49Z rpg: mordocai: I'm not sure there is.  DECLAIM seems to have uncertain semantics.
2016-09-21T20:20:04Z rpg: I suppose you could simply execute a call to PROCLAIM before you build the system.
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2016-09-21T20:22:25Z mordocai: rpg: At least with DECLAIM that didn't appear to work, though I wasn't forcing recompiling then so I should probably try it again. Haven't messed with proclaim but I was under the impression that declaim and proclaim mostly do the same things?
2016-09-21T20:22:43Z rpg: Yeah. DECLAIM is just an abbreviation.
2016-09-21T20:22:53Z rpg: Yes, you have to recompile everything to get the new settings.
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2016-09-21T20:23:35Z rpg: The weird thing is if you put DECLAIM of optimization settings in a file, different implementations have different opinions about whether the settings you declaim leak out of the file.
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2016-09-21T20:35:19Z PuercoPop: mordocai: there is sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy, ej (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 1)
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2016-09-21T20:45:40Z mordocai: PuercoPop: Yeah, unfortunately unless I am misunderstanding that just sets a minimum. Since I believe everything is 1 by default that means I can't make anything 0 with that(which isn't a huge deal, the only thing I'm currently setting to 0 is compilation time cause IGAF).
2016-09-21T20:45:53Z mordocai: Plus I would like cross-implementation support
2016-09-21T20:47:43Z mordocai: That was IDGAF*
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2016-09-21T20:55:16Z mordocai: So confirmed my previous problem with sbcl and not seeing the declaim "leak" to my other files was not forcing a recompile
2016-09-21T20:55:20Z mordocai: rpg ^
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2016-09-21T20:56:02Z mordocai: The next thing i'm curious about is if it leaks to -everything- loaded after the declaim. All i've confirmed is that it leaks to my game files.
2016-09-21T20:56:04Z PuercoPop: mordocai: I've seen some libraries use declaim  (or proclaim) and a read-time declaration, but as rpg it is implementation dependent if it affects is the declaration persists after the file
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2016-09-21T20:59:18Z prxq: mordocai: just came about - what is happening / not happening with declaim?
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2016-09-21T21:01:31Z mordocai: prxq: Well, mostly confusion on my part. I've confirmed now that if I do a declaim then force a (re)compile/load of my game the optimize settings take effect for the game files in sbcl. Since that is implementation specific i'm working on testing with ccl and ecl (the others I care about at all) and see if they act the same.
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2016-09-21T21:07:14Z rpg: mordocai: You're doing a DECLAIM in the REPL?
2016-09-21T21:07:35Z rpg: If so, that will be portable.
2016-09-21T21:07:49Z rpg: It's the effects of putting the DECLAIM into a file and then loading that file that are not portable.
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2016-09-21T21:09:15Z mordocai: rpg: Nah, one sec and i'll push my latest version
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2016-09-21T21:10:09Z mordocai: rpg: This is what i'm doing https://gitlab.com/mordocai/forever-game-roguelike/blob/master/start-dev.lisp
2016-09-21T21:10:19Z mordocai: Then just sbcl --load start-dev.lisp
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2016-09-21T21:14:55Z rpg: I'm not sure what the various implementations take as the semantics of DECLAIM, but I would think this would work, since it's in some sense scoped over the loading of the system.
2016-09-21T21:15:32Z rpg: When you load that, what are the settings afterwards?  Do the compiler settings leak out of that file?
2016-09-21T21:17:00Z mordocai: rpg: They leak in sbcl, just not sure if they leak in ccl/ecl yet. (roswell seems to ignore ~/quicklisp/local-projects so i'm looking at that since I installed ecl/ccl through roswell)
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2016-09-21T21:17:08Z prxq: mordocai: what do you need declaim for?
2016-09-21T21:17:41Z mordocai: prxq: Changing compiler optimization settings. Most importantly to up the default debug in development.
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2016-09-21T21:39:51Z Maddix: If anyone is interested; I'm looking to get feedback on a macro (fexpr). It unpacks a list of items into symbols inside a let statement. https://gist.github.com/Maddix/9412e6c4c9a243c8d044918e09383430
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2016-09-21T21:45:33Z Grue`: Maddix: this channel is for Common Lisp, you might have better luck at ##lisp
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2016-09-21T21:47:14Z Maddix: Grue: Gotcha, thanks!
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2016-09-21T22:36:51Z jasom: mordocai: as someone else mentioned sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy is the best way on sbcl to force debug on.  Don't forget to clear your asdf cache though.
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2016-09-21T22:50:49Z pillton: emaczen: I have written a new type of generic function which can dispatch on types. http://paste.lisp.org/display/326731
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2016-09-21T22:51:32Z pillton: emaczen: The (default) mechanism for selecting "methods" is very (very) different to generic functions.
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2016-09-21T23:06:15Z jasom: pipping: I wasn't running into any issues w.r.t. running tests, I was just discussing with rpg at that point pros/cons of various ways of automating things on windows
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2016-09-21T23:08:03Z pipping: jasom: all the better
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2016-09-21T23:15:13Z rpg: Yes, I wasn't able to figure out how to automate the tests -- starting jenkins in my infrequently-on Windows box seemed pretty daunting.
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2016-09-21T23:25:28Z rpg: jasom: I'll be around later, but need to go off and prepare food for the family.
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2016-09-21T23:38:18Z mordocai: Anyone know enough about roswell to help me to automatically get ~/quicklisp/local-projects picked up by its implementations?
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2016-09-21T23:39:59Z mordocai: Currently the quicklisp/asdf inside roswell implementations definitely is not picking it up
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2016-09-22T00:33:36Z eschatologist: Xach++, I was able to use zpb-ttf today to figure out some things about a TrueType font that I had
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2016-09-22T00:34:02Z XachX_: Cool
2016-09-22T00:34:21Z eschatologist: of course I had to use an internal symbol to do it, but that was easy enough :)
2016-09-22T00:34:42Z eschatologist was trying to figure out if the font had embedded bitmaps, or was a "simulated" bitmap font
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2016-09-22T02:56:12Z nilof: Is a dotted pair and a cons cell the same thing?
2016-09-22T02:56:24Z nilof: or is there some subtle difference
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2016-09-22T02:59:10Z pillton: clhs 2.4.1
2016-09-22T02:59:11Z specbot: Left-Parenthesis: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_da.htm
2016-09-22T02:59:52Z pillton: nilof: Your answer is in there.
2016-09-22T03:00:39Z pillton: Oh wait sorry. I misunderstood the term "dotted pair".
2016-09-22T03:00:53Z pillton: "dotted pair n. 1. a cons whose cdr is a non-list. 2. any cons, used to emphasize the use of the cons as a symmetric data pair."
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2016-09-22T03:02:23Z pillton: nilof: From http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_d.htm#dotted_pair
2016-09-22T03:05:04Z loke: nilof: A dotted pair is simply the textual representation of a cons cell.
2016-09-22T03:05:39Z nilof: okay, that's what I expected, thanks
2016-09-22T03:06:26Z pillton: The syntax is irrelevant for the term "dotted pair".
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2016-09-22T03:36:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-09-22T03:36:26Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-09-22T03:44:17Z test1600: Good morning, beach
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2016-09-22T03:50:44Z fouric: Question: why does this Stack Overflow answer's backquote/unquote example not line up with my experience? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17429521/common-lisp-double-backquote-unquote-quote-unquote-sequence/17443973#17443973
2016-09-22T03:50:56Z fouric: The poster claims that
2016-09-22T03:50:59Z fouric: (let ((tmp (gensym)))
2016-09-22T03:51:02Z fouric:     ``(lambda (,tmp ,,tmp ,',tmp) ()))Y
2016-09-22T03:51:07Z fouric: evaluates to `(LAMBDA (,TMP ,#:G42 #:G42) nil)
2016-09-22T03:51:54Z fouric: I get `(LAMBDA (,TMP ,#:G42 ,'#:G42 NIL)
2016-09-22T03:52:38Z Bike: are you sure you didn't forget a paren
2016-09-22T03:52:47Z fouric: Literal copy-paste
2016-09-22T03:53:03Z fouric: I *wish* that I had forgotten a paren
2016-09-22T03:53:27Z Bike: i mean your literal copy paste has unbalanced parens
2016-09-22T03:53:59Z fouric: oh, that, yes, add a paren at the end of the second result form
2016-09-22T03:54:04Z fouric: er
2016-09-22T03:54:10Z fouric: `(LAMBDA (,TMP ,#:G549 ,'#:G549) NIL)
2016-09-22T03:54:26Z fouric: *that* is literal copy-paste. my apologies, I was referring to the code to be evaluated.
2016-09-22T03:55:01Z fouric: ...the difference, and the problem, is that the SO answer has #:FOO as the last symbol, and I have ,'#:FOO
2016-09-22T03:55:31Z Bike: yeah. well, they are equivalent. i'd expect your result more often.
2016-09-22T03:55:41Z fouric: they're *equivalent*?
2016-09-22T03:55:52Z Bike: sure. `,'foo is foo
2016-09-22T03:56:23Z fouric: you're completely right
2016-09-22T03:56:26Z fouric: my apologies
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2016-09-22T03:57:59Z Bike: of course, the reader has to do tricks to realize that, and why bother, thus your output
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2016-09-22T05:06:55Z akkad: sbcl emits thousands of lines of when using post modern/tranactions. warning: Starting a poll(2) without a timeout while interrupts are disabled.
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2016-09-22T05:30:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there some way to send a form to the repl from the current buffer in slime?
2016-09-22T05:30:33Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes
2016-09-22T05:30:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been reading docs and trying things, but nothing seems to do what I want
2016-09-22T05:30:52Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: Just any form, or a toplevel form?
2016-09-22T05:31:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Both eventually
2016-09-22T05:31:11Z loke: C-c C-c compiles and runs the topkevel form under the cursor.
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2016-09-22T05:31:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: The things I've been doing so far either don't display the forms return value (C-c) or display it in the echo area
2016-09-22T05:31:46Z loke: There is also C-M-x which calls slime-eval-defun
2016-09-22T05:32:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want something that behaves the way slimv does: basically, copy the current form, paste it at the slime repl and evaluate it as if I had typed it out
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2016-09-22T05:33:22Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: That's a two-line function, if you want to implement it yourself.
2016-09-22T05:33:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I suspect that's what I'll be trying to figure out next :)
2016-09-22T05:33:38Z loke: I need it rarely enough that I typically just copy paste to the repl
2016-09-22T05:33:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks
2016-09-22T05:33:53Z akkad: is there a gethash equivalent for returning the key for a given value?
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2016-09-22T05:34:30Z Bike: no, and that operation would necessarily be worse
2016-09-22T05:34:40Z Bike: you could do it with maphash or something
2016-09-22T05:34:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: At that point, you might as well be using an alist
2016-09-22T05:35:07Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, I think what you are looking at is: slime-eval-last-expression-in-repl
2016-09-22T05:35:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's going to be roughly O(n) either way
2016-09-22T05:35:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke: thanks
2016-09-22T05:35:14Z akkad: right.
2016-09-22T05:35:23Z akkad: thanks
2016-09-22T05:35:36Z loke: C-c C-j
2016-09-22T05:35:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, it works
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2016-09-22T05:36:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like the way that works because I can use the repl buffer to keep track of things I've tried already
2016-09-22T05:36:35Z loke: I can see how that could be useful. Perhaps I should start to use it.
2016-09-22T05:37:00Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: I typically do it the other way. I work on the correct way to do something in the REPL. Then I copy the code into the file.
2016-09-22T05:37:18Z loke: But I suppose C-c C-j is designed to work the other way.
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2016-09-22T06:09:30Z pillton: M-p and M-n allow you to move backwards and forwards across all of the previous REPL inputs. You can even type a bit e.g. (let (, then press M-p to iterate through the previous inputs which start with (let (.
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2016-09-22T06:10:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: pillton: yeah, I realize that my difficulty had to do with sending code from the file I'm working on to the repl
2016-09-22T06:10:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which C-c C-j does
2016-09-22T06:11:22Z pillton: The variation in the way people use stuff always amazes me.
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2016-09-22T06:11:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: For me, at least, it has to do with coming from slimv
2016-09-22T06:12:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I've been tweaking my config to match my muscle memory as much as possible (i.e. evil-mode, etc.)
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2016-09-22T06:29:23Z drjeats: i ran across this project today: http://www.piumarta.com/software/lysp/
2016-09-22T06:29:28Z drjeats: at the bottom it says "And yes: '(cdr (assq key a-list))' does exactly what you want it to in LYSP. "
2016-09-22T06:29:34Z drjeats: what is the author referring to?
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2016-09-22T06:30:18Z beach: Probably that Scheme removed the pun that NIL is false and that CDR works on NIL.
2016-09-22T06:31:17Z beach: There is a pretty funny story out there about it, but I can't find it easily now.
2016-09-22T06:31:18Z drjeats: ah that makes sense, thank you :)
2016-09-22T06:31:18Z pillton: Does assq return the pair or the value?
2016-09-22T06:31:24Z drjeats: the pair
2016-09-22T06:32:55Z Bike: haha wait wait, gcc has a __builtin_apply that is indeed apply. what on earth.
2016-09-22T06:33:02Z drjeats: oh haha now that I look at the initial environment definitions in more detail this is made way more obvious: (define nil ())
2016-09-22T06:33:37Z drjeats: that's awesome!
2016-09-22T06:33:48Z Bike: piumarta has some pretty cool code.
2016-09-22T06:34:19Z beach: drjeats: In what way is it awesome?
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2016-09-22T06:37:06Z drjeats: beach: it's awesome to learn about interesting builtins
2016-09-22T06:37:09Z jackdaniel: gcc slowly catches up to CL :D
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2016-09-22T06:37:27Z jackdaniel: soon we'll have __builtin_remove_if_not
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2016-09-22T06:39:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: __builtin_boole
2016-09-22T06:40:12Z Bike: ok, i mean it's not like something you'd want to use regularly, there's a bunch of notes suggeseting it's only to be used for pass functions.
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2016-09-22T06:47:00Z akkad: how do you test for type-of null?
2016-09-22T06:47:20Z Bike: the function NULL
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2016-09-22T06:47:30Z Bike: or (type-of whatever 'null), etc
2016-09-22T06:47:53Z akkad: derp. thanks.
2016-09-22T06:51:43Z pillton: (typep whatever 'null) ?
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2016-09-22T06:55:45Z Quadrescence: (eq nil x) :D
2016-09-22T06:56:43Z Bike: yeah that one. whatevs
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2016-09-22T12:53:47Z isoraqathedh: Sometimes I have to resist the urge to do this: (setf (symbol-function '×) #'*)
2016-09-22T12:54:08Z raydeejay: don't resist
2016-09-22T12:54:09Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-22T12:54:26Z Grue``: it's not unusual for people to use λ instead of lambda
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2016-09-22T12:55:30Z z0d: Lisp is all about building your own language :->
2016-09-22T12:56:21Z ecraven: Grue``: I even use hebrew lamed ל
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2016-09-22T12:56:47Z isoraqathedh: But you can't do this trick with lambda, can you?
2016-09-22T12:56:55Z raydeejay: why type ><> when you can type 🐟
2016-09-22T12:56:57Z isoraqathedh: It's a special-operator/macro.
2016-09-22T12:57:53Z isoraqathedh: Neither seem to occupy the function cell of a symbol.
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2016-09-22T13:00:24Z raydeejay: (defmacro λ (params &rest rest) `(lambda ,params ,@rest))
2016-09-22T13:00:31Z raydeejay hides from the expected being yelled at
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2016-09-22T13:02:09Z Grue``: yeah, you should use &body instead of &rest
2016-09-22T13:02:21Z ecraven: raydeejay: or just use emacs and make it display (lambda as (λ
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2016-09-22T13:12:06Z otwieracz: yep
2016-09-22T13:12:09Z otwieracz: pretty-greek user here
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2016-09-22T13:27:34Z shrdlu68: I've been wondering a lot lately about how to do operations that presume/require objects as octets. For instance, encoding, hashing, crypto...
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2016-09-22T13:28:40Z shrdlu68: Ironclad has `ascii-string-to-byte-array`, but it is strictly for strings who chars have char-code belown 255.
2016-09-22T13:29:16Z shrdlu68: What about strings encoded in, say, unicode?
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2016-09-22T13:30:17Z Xach: shrdlu68: strings are strings. you can convert them to an encoded octet array with many libraries and built-in implementation functions.
2016-09-22T13:30:34Z Xach: shrdlu68: babel is one such library
2016-09-22T13:31:23Z Xach: axion: what's up with AGM?
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2016-09-22T13:32:07Z shrdlu68: Xach: Let me check out babel's source to see how it's done.
2016-09-22T13:32:28Z Xach: shrdlu68: see also sb-ext:string-to-octets
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2016-09-22T13:33:35Z shrdlu68: Xach: Oh and which are the built-in functions? I see a lot of primitives for making IO streams out of character vectors, but I haven't seen one for octets and such.
2016-09-22T13:34:03Z axion: Xach: we talked about this. It's part of the new repository
2016-09-22T13:34:05Z Xach: sb-ext:string-to-octets, ccl:string-to-octets (iirc), and others.
2016-09-22T13:34:15Z Xach: axion: i thought we talked about ecs or something.
2016-09-22T13:34:23Z Xach has lost track
2016-09-22T13:34:47Z axion: All my gamedev utilities are part of gamebox as separate systems now
2016-09-22T13:37:31Z Xach will try to catch up on such things today & tomorrow
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2016-09-22T13:39:33Z Xach: everything hosted on google code is causing problems for me.
2016-09-22T13:40:40Z raydeejay: ecraven: I do that
2016-09-22T13:40:52Z ecraven: raydeejay: me too :)
2016-09-22T13:42:47Z pipping: google code still does hosting?
2016-09-22T13:43:01Z Xach: pipping: nope! so every update attempt signals an error.
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2016-09-22T15:06:08Z emaczen: I am running both CCL and SBCL in emacs, how do I switch a buffer between them?
2016-09-22T15:06:35Z emaczen: Right now I have a buffer that says it is using SBCL how do I switch it to CCL?
2016-09-22T15:06:37Z Grue``: "C-c x n" in SLIME
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2016-09-22T15:07:02Z emaczen: Grue``: Thanks
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2016-09-22T15:36:57Z shrdlu68: How do I specify the exact size of an integer at run-time?
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2016-09-22T15:37:48Z Xach: shrdlu68: Lisp integers dont have exact sizes. What prompts the question?
2016-09-22T15:38:07Z Xach: shrdlu68: You can find out how many bits are required to represent it, for positive integers...
2016-09-22T15:38:32Z Xach: my mistake, it works for any integer.
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2016-09-22T15:40:52Z shrdlu68: Xach: I'm thinking of a way to load a byte array into an integer using dpb. I thought it woud be helpful if I could specify that the ouput integer would be of integer-length of 8 * vector-length.
2016-09-22T15:41:28Z Xach: shrdlu68: not necessary.
2016-09-22T15:41:28Z shrdlu68: There's libraries to do this, I know...just want to play around with the repl :)
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2016-09-22T15:41:29Z Grue``: (assert (something integer))
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2016-09-22T15:43:23Z Grue``: where something is (<= (expt 2 min-size) (1- (expt 2 max-size)))
2016-09-22T15:44:04Z Grue``: ugh, integer is there in the middle
2016-09-22T15:44:04Z jasom: the type would be (unsigned-byte (* 8 n))
2016-09-22T15:44:17Z jasom: or rather `(unsigned-byte ,(* 8 n))
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2016-09-22T15:44:54Z shrdlu68: jasom: Do I declare or what?
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2016-09-22T15:44:59Z jasom: (typep foo `(unsigned-byte ,(* 8 n))
2016-09-22T15:47:09Z jasom: shrdlu68: I don't think any existing compiler will do something smart with that; certainly not smarter than just if you had declared it an integer
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2016-09-22T15:47:23Z jasom: shrdlu68: and you can only declare statically known types.
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2016-09-22T16:54:53Z flip214:  I believe that hunchentoot can do /paths/with/(:arguments) .... am I mistaken?
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2016-09-22T17:00:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: The easy-acceptor might be able to do that
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2016-09-22T17:00:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hunchentoot itself doesn't do much path-handling
2016-09-22T17:01:24Z Grue``: hunchentoot can do any regexes
2016-09-22T17:01:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#easy-handlers
2016-09-22T17:01:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think you want create-prefex-dispatcher or create-regex-dispatcher
2016-09-22T17:01:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/prefex/prefix/
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2016-09-22T17:03:10Z MethCat: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-09-22T17:51:26Z jasom: Check my maty: if it takes 16 hours to get 50% of the way done on an N^2 algorithm, it should take about 64 hours total, right?
2016-09-22T17:52:08Z jasom: s/maty/math
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2016-09-22T17:54:29Z Grue``: if it's 50% done then it will be 100% done at 16*2 hours
2016-09-22T17:54:41Z Grue``: otherwise you have a different definition of "done"
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2016-09-22T17:54:55Z jasom: sorry, it has processed 50% of the data.
2016-09-22T17:55:52Z Grue``: like, if you call O(N^2) algorithm on numbers from 1 to N, then total time is O(x^3) function of the step
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2016-09-22T17:56:26Z Grue``: (because it's an integral of quadratic function)
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2016-09-22T17:57:14Z jasom: the algorithm is in the subset of N^2 algorithms for which it will finish the first m items, and then to process the m+1th item takes time proportional to m
2016-09-22T17:57:24Z raydeejay: reinventing bubblesort?
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2016-09-22T17:59:03Z jasom: this is for my ql2nix; basically I try to build a system.  If it succeeds, continue, if fails, then modify the dependencies due to the failure.  In some cases, this can modify the order in which systems are processed (due to new dependencies being discovered), so I start over with the building.  The good news is that when there are no changes to an input, the build finishes in about 1 second due to nix being
2016-09-22T17:59:05Z jasom: smart about that.
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2016-09-22T18:03:36Z kang0: Any foreign student?
2016-09-22T18:04:05Z pierpa: foreign respect to where?
2016-09-22T18:04:40Z kang0: Wrt India
2016-09-22T18:04:59Z pierpa: the I'm foreign, but unfortunately not a student anymore :)
2016-09-22T18:05:18Z pierpa: *then
2016-09-22T18:05:25Z kang0: That's fine
2016-09-22T18:07:04Z raydeejay: pierpa: better to be a learner?
2016-09-22T18:07:22Z jasom: I'm foreign to people in India I suppose.
2016-09-22T18:07:36Z jasom: "Never let your education get in the way of learning"
2016-09-22T18:07:41Z kang0: Hi jasom raydeejay
2016-09-22T18:08:25Z raydeejay: mmmm that's from Mr. Clemens, right?
2016-09-22T18:08:54Z jasom: raydeejay: earliest attribution is to him, but http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/09/25/schooling-vs-education/ claims it was more likely written by Grant Allen first.
2016-09-22T18:09:28Z raydeejay: I choose Occam's Laser
2016-09-22T18:09:33Z raydeejay: coolest explanation is the most likely one
2016-09-22T18:10:56Z pipping: raydeejay: heh
2016-09-22T18:11:37Z pierpa: raydeejay: better to have the age of a student.
2016-09-22T18:13:01Z raydeejay: making assumptions... xD
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2016-09-22T19:53:12Z shrdlu68: Is it possible to affect the radix when the reader is reading floats, like one can do with *read-base* for integers?
2016-09-22T19:53:48Z _death: no
2016-09-22T19:54:03Z _death: you can write your own reader macro to do that
2016-09-22T19:54:05Z shrdlu68: Bummer.
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2016-09-22T19:55:25Z shrdlu68: _death: And what functions would it call to construct the float?
2016-09-22T19:56:08Z Bike: arithmetic?
2016-09-22T19:56:50Z Bike: scale-float and float are enough to reconstruct from integer-decode-float
2016-09-22T19:57:14Z _death: https://github.com/soemraws/parse-float has a radix parameter
2016-09-22T19:57:43Z _death: although it seems limited
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2016-09-22T20:03:09Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: you could add that feature to parse-number
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2016-09-22T20:06:45Z shrdlu68: fe[nl]ix: I'll see about that.
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2016-09-22T20:10:19Z Bike: it's kind of difficult since reading floats is.
2016-09-22T20:10:57Z pjb: Well reading float syntax is simple enough. It's converting them into float values precisely that's harder.
2016-09-22T20:11:15Z Bike: that is what i meant, yes.
2016-09-22T20:11:40Z Bike: i think the usual algorithms are pretty simple to convert for different bases though.
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2016-09-22T20:45:20Z iskander: hello #lisp
2016-09-22T20:45:50Z iskander: has anybody tried to install SBCL on macOS Sierra ?
2016-09-22T20:46:10Z iskander: ii fails with brew
2016-09-22T20:46:24Z iskander: it*
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2016-09-22T20:52:31Z pipping: iskander: well, downloading the 1.2.11 binary and running that works.
2016-09-22T20:52:50Z iskander: brew uses 1.3.9
2016-09-22T20:53:27Z pipping: iskander: there've been plenty of macOS-specific patches going into sbcl-git over the past few days. not sure if all issues are fixed but that's your best bet for now
2016-09-22T20:53:48Z iskander: ok, thanks
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2016-09-22T21:12:31Z slyrus: iskander: yeah, SBCL 1.3.10 should be better for new xcode and macos
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2016-09-22T23:00:26Z akkad: if I have a queue/list what is a faster way to dump the whole thing vs popping one off at a time in a loop?
2016-09-22T23:02:54Z Bike: (setf queue nil)?
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2016-09-22T23:06:33Z akkad: o|O
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2016-09-22T23:06:55Z Bike: what?
2016-09-22T23:07:11Z raydeejay: heh
2016-09-22T23:07:32Z jasom: akkad: what do you want to do?
2016-09-22T23:07:49Z jasom: akkad: specifically what does "dump" mean in this context?
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2016-09-22T23:08:45Z jasom: if by dump you mean "remove" then Bike is correct; if by dump you mean "remove and return the list of removed items" then (prog1 queue (setf queue nil)) will do the trick.
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2016-09-22T23:15:16Z akkad: dump, not nil out.
2016-09-22T23:16:07Z akkad: copy contents to say a file.
2016-09-22T23:16:25Z akkad: loop/dequeue is very slow
2016-09-22T23:16:52Z jasom: akkad: use a serialization library?
2016-09-22T23:17:09Z akkad: maybe format.
2016-09-22T23:17:32Z jasom: akkad: obviously the format of the file will depend on how you output it.  What are you doing right now?
2016-09-22T23:18:04Z raydeejay: better yet, what are you dumping it for?
2016-09-22T23:18:54Z akkad: let me show
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2016-09-22T23:19:47Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/85892c69c01e9b2585663d37fb9c6953
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2016-09-22T23:20:17Z raydeejay: there are seven million libraries for dealing with csv
2016-09-22T23:20:29Z raydeejay: the figure may bea slight exaggeration
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2016-09-22T23:21:46Z raydeejay: but I don't see how my comment is relevant :)
2016-09-22T23:21:57Z akkad: csv is not really the issue.
2016-09-22T23:22:12Z jasom: akkad: in that case, use a queue library that provides the ability to empty the queue in a single operation.  pcall-queue doesn't allow this.
2016-09-22T23:23:32Z jasom: akkad: It may be slow because it's acquiring and releasing a lock for every single pop operation
2016-09-22T23:23:43Z jasom: akkad: without measuring I can't say for sure that's the bottleneck though
2016-09-22T23:23:53Z akkad: I could add a defmethod for print-object
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2016-09-22T23:24:07Z akkad: or queue-length operation.
2016-09-22T23:24:31Z jasom: you could also add the operation to the pcall-queue if you want
2016-09-22T23:24:41Z akkad: yeah
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2016-09-22T23:25:56Z pillton: Why are you asking for the length every time? Shouldn't that be (not (empty queue)).
2016-09-22T23:26:00Z jasom: lparallel has with-locked-queue and pop-queue/no-lock
2016-09-22T23:26:12Z jasom: oh, I didn't even see that.  That's *really* slow
2016-09-22T23:26:51Z akkad: pillton: thanks that makes more sense
2016-09-22T23:26:52Z jasom: queue-empty-p in the case of pcall-queue
2016-09-22T23:27:03Z pillton: clhs formatter
2016-09-22T23:27:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_format.htm
2016-09-22T23:27:47Z jasom: though pcall-queue really ought to maintain the length in it's object which would make it much faster.
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2016-09-22T23:28:07Z pillton: I'm just throwing things at the wall. I don't know the library.
2016-09-22T23:28:32Z jasom: pillton: yeah the library uses a list-walk to calculate the length, so it's a good catch
2016-09-22T23:28:39Z pillton prepares the trebuchet.
2016-09-22T23:29:02Z raydeejay hands some silver bullets to pillton
2016-09-22T23:29:09Z raydeejay: tailored to programming
2016-09-22T23:29:27Z jasom: It also uses a doubly-linked list for a single-ended queue.
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2016-09-22T23:30:44Z jasom: though now that I think about it, you need that for either efficient remove or insert.
2016-09-22T23:31:29Z jasom: scratch that, you don't; insert to end remove from head, all is simple and fast.
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2016-09-22T23:32:04Z raydeejay: well it's a queue
2016-09-22T23:32:29Z pillton: You can get queues like priority-queues.
2016-09-22T23:32:48Z akkad: yeah... it was the lenght checking
2016-09-22T23:32:58Z akkad: worse possible case scenario
2016-09-22T23:33:31Z pillton: Where do I send the invoice?
2016-09-22T23:33:33Z pillton: :)
2016-09-22T23:34:18Z pillton: raydeejay: e.g. https://github.com/TheRiver/CL-HEAP
2016-09-22T23:34:59Z pillton: raydeejay: I've used that library to help improve some dynamic programming problems.
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2016-09-22T23:36:45Z akkad: pillton: got a beer fund?
2016-09-22T23:36:46Z raydeejay bookmarks for later examination
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2016-09-22T23:52:05Z jasom: just to make sure I wasn't insane about a simple single-ended queue not needing doubly linked-lists, I wrote one: http://paste.lisp.org/display/326838
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2016-09-22T23:52:23Z raydeejay: xDD
2016-09-22T23:52:30Z jasom forgot to decf length on pop, but is otherwise correct.
2016-09-22T23:53:20Z jasom: not exporting 'marker from the package it's defined in is highly recommended :)
2016-09-22T23:53:59Z raydeejay: "singly linked list" implies keeping track of the end, right?
2016-09-22T23:54:22Z jasom: raydeejay: keeping track of the end is always necessary for an O(1) implementation of a queue.
2016-09-22T23:54:41Z raydeejay: that's sort of what I'm trying to say
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2016-09-22T23:54:53Z raydeejay: for a queue you definitely want to do that, otherwise "queue" is just a name
2016-09-22T23:54:59Z jasom: though a circular doubly-linked list you might arguably be not "keeping track of the end", that's semantics
2016-09-22T23:55:09Z jasom: since the end is O(1) findable from the beginning.
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2016-09-22T23:58:22Z jasom: the pcall implementation uses a front and back and is doubly linked, which is kind of the worst of both worlds.  If you're going to do doubly linked then have a head element, and if it points to itself, then the queue is empty.
2016-09-22T23:58:43Z jasom: and then just do an insert before the head for push and remove after the head for pop.
2016-09-22T23:59:04Z raydeejay: enqueue and dequeue
2016-09-22T23:59:14Z jasom: right enq/deq, not push/pop
2016-09-22T23:59:23Z raydeejay: well, just "queue"
2016-09-22T23:59:24Z raydeejay: xD
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2016-09-23T00:02:12Z jasom: I also like that lparallel provides both bounded and unbounded queues.
2016-09-23T00:02:27Z raydeejay has a lot to explore
2016-09-23T00:02:31Z jasom: for producer/consumer uses I like bounded queues
2016-09-23T00:02:37Z raydeejay: at least I don't see parens anymore :)
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2016-09-23T00:05:58Z akkad: will get to lparallel some day.
2016-09-23T00:12:40Z raydeejay: what I really really want to get into is McClim
2016-09-23T00:12:48Z raydeejay: at least to grok what it is about
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2016-09-23T00:50:27Z pipping: raydeejay: Isn't that the protagonist in 'Die Hard'?
2016-09-23T00:50:39Z raydeejay: lol?
2016-09-23T00:51:22Z raydeejay: that's McClane
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2016-09-23T00:51:51Z raydeejay: the man in the wrongest place at the wrongest time
2016-09-23T00:51:58Z raydeejay: four times
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2016-09-23T01:43:39Z rpg: Is it possible to have multiple slime repl windows on a single lisp process?
2016-09-23T01:44:48Z raydeejay: hmm... you can start a second swank, can't you?
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2016-09-23T01:45:52Z rpg: raydeejay: is that a thing I can do from emacs?
2016-09-23T01:46:39Z raydeejay: well... in a repl already connected you do (swank:start-server ...) or whatever it is, and then M-x slime-connect
2016-09-23T01:46:50Z raydeejay: at least that's my guess
2016-09-23T01:46:56Z raydeejay: try it and see what happens
2016-09-23T01:47:10Z raydeejay: the worst that can happen is that your computer explodes and you turn into some sort of cyborg
2016-09-23T01:47:27Z rpg: raydeejay: oh, well, in that case, nothing to lose.
2016-09-23T01:47:45Z raydeejay: note that I have absolutely no idea about how it works, it just seems reasonable to me
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2016-09-23T01:48:13Z rpg: I'm working in a way that makes it convenient to have 2 different windows, each in a different package.
2016-09-23T01:48:49Z rpg: it's possible that starting a second swank server will give me a different Lisp thread, in which case I won't get the nice sharing of context that I would like...
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2016-09-23T01:51:25Z rpg: ah, its' the slime-mrepl package I want, appaernetly.
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2016-09-23T01:52:14Z rpg: s/package/contrib.
2016-09-23T01:53:34Z raydeejay: \o/
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2016-09-23T02:02:49Z rpg: Not entirely sure that this is what I want, since the mrepl doesn't seem to live on top of the slime-repl, which means... maybe it doesn't have all the goodies?
2016-09-23T02:04:42Z pillton: Can you connect twice to the same swank server?
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2016-09-23T02:05:48Z raydeejay: hm... I assumed "no"
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2016-09-23T02:09:25Z pillton: It seems to work if you create two servers.
2016-09-23T02:10:03Z raydeejay: what about shared stuff?
2016-09-23T02:10:42Z pillton: "Shared stuff"?
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2016-09-23T02:12:10Z rpg: pillton: Shared stuff might refer to my desiring to share the value of special variables across two repls.
2016-09-23T02:13:07Z pillton: I'd say that depends on how threads are implemented.
2016-09-23T02:13:26Z pillton: My SBCL doesn't have thread support so I can't check.
2016-09-23T02:13:54Z pillton: rpg: (swank:create-server :port 45645)
2016-09-23T02:14:07Z pillton: rpg: M-x slime-connect RET 127.0.0.1 RET 45645 RET
2016-09-23T02:16:18Z pillton: This bag of meat I'm trapped in is telling me to eat lunch. BBL.
2016-09-23T02:16:45Z loke: Hello pillton
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2016-09-23T02:22:29Z rpg: thanks, pillton
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2016-09-23T02:52:00Z pillton: loke: G'day.
2016-09-23T02:52:04Z pillton: rpg: No worries.
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2016-09-23T03:43:23Z axion: Or just use Sly, with multiple REPLs and inspectors by default
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2016-09-23T04:02:36Z loke: axion: Sly doesn't have presentations, so it kinda sucks.
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2016-09-23T04:07:17Z axion: No, it has some features of them, but not them per-se. I personally make do without them, but I don't think I could look back not having all that Sly has to offer, so I definitely would not say it sucks.
2016-09-23T04:07:56Z loke: axion: What is it it has to offer which SLIME does not? I kinda didn't look much at sly after I noticed it didn't have presentations.
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2016-09-23T04:11:16Z axion: inline buffer macro-expansion, stickers (ways to annotate and debug objects without print/format statements messing up the file), multiple inspectors, and maybe more are some things I really enjoy using
2016-09-23T04:12:55Z axion: I sort of haven't used SLIME in a while, so there could be more, but the last time I did I found myself wanting those features.
2016-09-23T04:13:11Z loke: I'm going to do a presentation of Lisp development in Emacs at a local Emacs meetup group. I'll make sure to mention that that exists.
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2016-09-23T04:15:09Z axion: Nice
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2016-09-23T05:47:21Z emaczen: How can I get the function-name of a compiled-function?
2016-09-23T05:47:58Z jasom: emaczen: that's implementation dependent I think
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2016-09-23T05:48:10Z Bike: from the function itself? can't. sometimes it'll be in function-lambda-expression.
2016-09-23T05:48:19Z jackdaniel: generally you can't do that, because function may be bound to a few symbols
2016-09-23T05:49:07Z jackdaniel: (setf (fdefinition 'yyy) #'xxx)
2016-09-23T05:49:19Z jackdaniel: now function defined as xxx may be used as yyy
2016-09-23T05:49:21Z jasom: oh, if you know the name is interned, you can loop over every symbol in every package and see if it's fbound to the function
2016-09-23T05:49:31Z jasom: that's portable
2016-09-23T05:49:51Z jackdaniel: right, sounds reasonable, you could get all symbols bound to the function
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2016-09-23T05:52:53Z jasom: well only all interned symbols bound to the function; if you did (defun #.(gensym) ...) you woudln't be able to find that
2016-09-23T05:54:11Z edgar-rft: what's with functions that are stored in the symbol-value slot of a symbol?
2016-09-23T05:54:36Z Bike: "what's with"? that makes them just values of dynamic variables, i guess?
2016-09-23T05:54:59Z jasom: edgar-rft: I don't understand the question
2016-09-23T05:55:17Z edgar-rft: like (defvar a (lambda () "hello")) (funcall a)
2016-09-23T05:55:29Z Bike: sure, what about it
2016-09-23T05:56:29Z edgar-rft: the symbol-name wouldn't be returned by fboundp
2016-09-23T05:56:37Z Bike: no, it would not be.
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2016-09-23T05:57:18Z Bike: i mean that's just a variable though. it's not the same thing as a function name binding.
2016-09-23T05:57:33Z edgar-rft: above was claimed that fboundp does return all symbol-names that a function is bound to
2016-09-23T05:57:43Z Bike: bound as a function, yes.
2016-09-23T05:58:04Z Bike: it also doesn't include every hash table the function is in. not important
2016-09-23T05:58:51Z Quadresce: pipping,  "<pipping> Quadresce: what are you targetting? unicode?" --> Ideally but I'm open to examining more restricted alternatives
2016-09-23T06:00:02Z Bike: oh, hey, there's a weitz unicode wrapper. so i guess you could do (cl-unicode:has-binary-property character "White_Space")
2016-09-23T06:00:17Z edgar-rft: Bike: in CL a function object can be bound to a variable, so claiming that fboundp returns *ALL* symbols that a function object could be bound to is just simply wrong
2016-09-23T06:00:53Z Quadresce: Bike, nice
2016-09-23T06:01:07Z Bike: don't you think you're being pedantic? it was assumed that a function's "names" would mean symbols it's bound to functionwise.
2016-09-23T06:01:07Z jackdaniel: I'm pretty sure the original question referred to names which may be put in a function position
2016-09-23T06:01:17Z Quadresce: Also, I'm dumb, I responded with an answer to the wrong thing.
2016-09-23T06:01:32Z Quadresce: I thought I asked this earlier. I'll ask again if I missed an answer.
2016-09-23T06:01:41Z Quadresce: Are there any regex libraries that work on streams?
2016-09-23T06:02:19Z Zhivago: Rephrase it as 'all function variables that are bound'.
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2016-09-23T06:09:06Z edgar-rft: back to the original question: there is no way to find the "name" of a function because in CL a function is a data object that has no name. It can be bound to things that have a name (like symbols) but the function object itself remains a neameless object. That's why it makes no sense to search for things that don't exist like "names" of functions. That's what I wanted to point out. "It was assumed" is only an assumpt
2016-09-23T06:09:06Z edgar-rft: ion. Most bugs are based on wrong assumptions.
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2016-09-23T06:09:54Z Bike: jackdaniel already pointed that out with multiple names
2016-09-23T06:10:22Z Bike: and functions can actually have names, it's just not totally standard. function-lambda-expression can get you a name.
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2016-09-23T06:12:25Z jackdaniel imagines a predicate (is-that-your-true-name-deary-p 'fun-1 #'fun) ;-)
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2016-09-23T06:13:34Z edgar-rft: lets create pathnames for functions
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2016-09-23T06:13:37Z Bike: most functions use a pseudonym, to avoid being placed under geas by witches
2016-09-23T06:14:40Z jackdaniel: speaking of pathnames, is there any implementation-specific extension for virtual filesystem?
2016-09-23T06:15:34Z jackdaniel: so I can place my files in-memory and put them under some logical pathname, for instance "vfs:resources;picture.png"
2016-09-23T06:16:22Z pillton: Alas, no. (defun vfs (&rest args) ...)
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2016-09-23T06:17:09Z pillton: You could look at https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-fuse/.
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2016-09-23T06:17:44Z jackdaniel: thanks, will do
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2016-09-23T06:21:22Z jasom: fwiw sb's unicode library is more complete than cl-unicode.  Someone pointed out an example of capitalizing ß
2016-09-23T06:22:07Z Bike: it's got all the fancy normalization stuff too
2016-09-23T06:22:28Z jasom: making a portable version of that is on my todo list, but near the bottom.
2016-09-23T06:22:36Z jasom: the code is very nearly portable already
2016-09-23T06:22:48Z pillton: Portable version of what?
2016-09-23T06:22:58Z Bike: ...oh, like actually doing it yourself instead of just wrapping it, huh.
2016-09-23T06:23:01Z jasom: well for lisps in which char-code returns the unicode codepoint
2016-09-23T06:23:17Z jasom: pillton: sb-unicode
2016-09-23T06:23:41Z jasom: or whatever it's called
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2016-09-23T06:25:03Z pillton: Aww man. unicode. That problem is like text editors. Everyone uses one, but very (very) few develop/improve one.
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2016-09-23T06:34:59Z jasom: anyone have numbers for difference in load times of .lisp vs. .fasl for various implementations?
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2016-09-23T09:42:57Z pipping: pillton: Window managers are even worse.
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2016-09-23T09:46:54Z pipping: jasom: the-make-sb-unicode-standalone project is a fabulous idea.
2016-09-23T09:47:33Z pipping: jasom: I've put a tiny unicode-in-CL overlook here: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/epipping/asdf/wikis/Unicode%20support%20overview
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2016-09-23T09:53:26Z Grue``: there's also another way to specify character ł, #\ł
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2016-09-23T09:54:37Z jackdaniel: przęsło
2016-09-23T09:55:20Z pipping: Grue``: hence the "at least" ;)
2016-09-23T09:56:42Z pipping: Grue``: I should qualify that with "... in ASCII" (doing that)
2016-09-23T09:57:46Z Grue``: yeah, but it's my preferred one lately, because I can't be bothered to look up the name (and apparently it doesn't even work on many impls)
2016-09-23T09:58:04Z Grue``: LispWorks fares surprisingly badly
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2016-09-23T10:16:01Z pipping: #\ł also won't work on many lisps, though. If you want maximum portability, you need (code-char #x0142), as you can see
2016-09-23T10:18:20Z pipping: Or http://weitz.de/cl-unicode/#syntax
2016-09-23T10:20:19Z jackdaniel: łódka
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2016-09-23T11:54:24Z loke`: Hello
2016-09-23T11:54:36Z loke`: Anyone know why #abcl is invite-only?
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2016-09-23T11:59:46Z jackdaniel: loke`: I think easye did something mistakenly, but idk
2016-09-23T12:00:39Z loke`: OK
2016-09-23T12:00:45Z loke`: Thanks
2016-09-23T12:00:57Z pipping: loke`: it's in preparation for abcl's switch to a 500$-a-month subscription model with release 1.4
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2016-09-23T12:02:10Z loke`: pipping: http://wallpaperswide.com/shut_up_and_take_my_money-wallpapers.html
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2016-09-23T12:36:30Z flip214: Is there some CL dbus library that can be used as a server? Ie. that listens for dbus messages?
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2016-09-23T12:44:02Z jackdaniel: #abcl open again ;)
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2016-09-23T12:52:00Z _death: flip214: some years ago I thought about adding that functionality and started designing it but not long after my interest in dbus vanished.. if you want to do that yourself I'd suggest looking into the python library to get ideas
2016-09-23T12:52:53Z easye: Sorry about the invite only on #abcl (dunno what happened)
2016-09-23T12:55:06Z flip214: _death: yeah... at least there's an request-name already ;/
2016-09-23T12:56:36Z flip214: _death: but at least you'll be around to respond to pull requests and provide feedback, right?
2016-09-23T12:57:19Z _death: very limited feedback.. see my comment https://github.com/death/dbus/issues/13
2016-09-23T13:00:40Z _death: I plan to write a lot of Lisp this year, but without direction from external factors
2016-09-23T13:01:01Z pipping: this year? the year is already 3/4 over!
2016-09-23T13:01:19Z jackdaniel: more impressive if he manages to write a lot :)
2016-09-23T13:01:26Z _death: pipping: my epoch is 2 months ago :)
2016-09-23T13:01:46Z pipping: efficiency may be impressive but effectiveness is what benefits us more
2016-09-23T13:02:01Z _death: which I spent touring germany and pretty much avoided computers :)
2016-09-23T13:02:18Z pipping: _death: does that mean you're 2months old? ;)
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2016-09-23T13:03:00Z _death: pipping: the "new" me, I guess ;)
2016-09-23T13:03:33Z pipping: _death: may I ask which places you chose to visit?
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2016-09-23T13:04:18Z _death: pipping: not sure it's relevant to the channel, so I'll pm
2016-09-23T13:04:40Z pipping: sure, go ahead
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2016-09-23T13:44:58Z eschulte: I've been using FlameGraphs (http://www.brendangregg.com/FlameGraphs/cpuflamegraphs.html) in other languages to profile and I'm wondering if the same is possible with Lisp profiles.
2016-09-23T13:45:10Z eschulte: The information needed is a collection of stacks (list of functions on the stack) paired with counts of their frequency. Looking at sbcl-sprof, it doesn't appear that whole stacks are ever collected, just the most recent calling function. Can anyone here suggest a way to collect this information for SBCL?
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2016-09-23T13:53:21Z loke`: eschulte: Well, flamegraph seems to be just a perl script.
2016-09-23T13:53:36Z loke`: You can run perl scripts directly from Lisp if you want
2016-09-23T13:54:26Z eschulte: yes, sorry if that wasn't clear, I'd like to profile a running lisp application, so I'm asking for advice on how to collect stack samples from SBCL
2016-09-23T13:55:08Z eschulte: once I have the SBCL profile information I'll be set, I can just print it in the format expected by the perl script and voila
2016-09-23T13:55:13Z loke`: eschulte: I see. You can use trivial-backtrace. It has a function that returns the stack trace.
2016-09-23T13:55:27Z eschulte: oh great, thanks I'll check that out
2016-09-23T13:55:28Z scymtym: eschulte: stack traces seem to be delimited by the symbol SB-SPROF::TRACE-START in SB-SPROF::*SAMPLES*
2016-09-23T13:55:32Z loke`: But, if you want to be SBCL specific you can get the profile data.
2016-09-23T13:55:47Z loke`: as scymtym mentioned
2016-09-23T13:56:05Z eschulte: yeah, so I collected profile data with sb-sprof, but it's a graph which only every records the very top-most frame on the stack (not the whole stack)
2016-09-23T13:57:44Z scymtym: eschulte: i don't think that can be true. how would SB-SPROF:REPORT be able to report callers and callees?
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2016-09-23T13:58:36Z eschulte: my understanding (from looking at this only briefly) is that it only every looks at the caller of the current function, and uses that to add a single edge to a collected call graph, and it uses that call graph to generate the report
2016-09-23T13:58:55Z eschulte: have to run for a minute, I'll take another look at sb-sprof:*samples* though
2016-09-23T13:59:21Z scymtym: eschulte: in my understanding, each time the profiler produces a "sample", a subsequence of the form 'TRACE-START DEBUG-INFO1 PC1 DEBUG-INFO2 PC2 ... is added to the sample vector, where DEBUG-INFO1 DEBUG-INFO2 ... constitute a stack trace
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2016-09-23T14:14:38Z scymtym: turns out, sb-sprof already knows how to make a call graph: https://techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/~jmoringe/call-graph.html
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2016-09-23T14:26:34Z eschulte: that graph is nice, but only built from single program-counter/return-address pairs.
2016-09-23T14:26:39Z eschulte: Just found a related FIXME in sb-sprof.lisp "On non-x86 platforms we don't yet walk the call stack deeper than one level."
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2016-09-23T14:39:51Z scymtym: eschulte: look at SIGPROF-HANDLER for x86[-64] (i agree with your analysis for other platforms). i'm pretty sure it walks the call stack, recording the pc for each stack frame. i'm not going to debate this further, though, as it is starting to get off topic
2016-09-23T14:40:09Z eschulte: yeah, will do, and thanks for the help
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2016-09-23T14:43:44Z scymtym: ok, sorry if that sounded too hash (and maybe look the link again :))
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2016-09-23T14:44:51Z eschulte: no problem at all, I should back out of this rabbit hole as well, it is just irksome that something so easy to state is proving difficult to collect...
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2016-09-23T16:07:38Z jasom: sb-sprof collects the entire callstack
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2016-09-23T16:08:06Z jasom: eschulte: oh, are you an arm?
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2016-09-23T16:10:29Z scymtym: proof-of-concept sb-sprof flame graph: http://paste.lisp.org/display/326901
2016-09-23T16:15:14Z jasom: I find the call-graph report of sb-sprof to be similarly useful to a flamegraph, though it's not 100% overlap (there's times when one or the other is better).
2016-09-23T16:16:41Z jasom: also, the dissasembly is annoted with instruction-level profiling data after running a profile run
2016-09-23T16:17:33Z jasom: which makes it one of the few programming environments where you can redefine a function in a REPL and then view instruction-level profiling; the edit/compile/measure cycle is crazy short.
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2016-09-23T17:11:09Z flip214: _death: current QL has a diff against your github version: http://paste.lisp.org/display/326905
2016-09-23T17:11:34Z flip214: I'd have expected no changes, as the github repo hasn't had any for some time
2016-09-23T17:12:17Z pipping: grml. out-of-date docs are even worse than no docs
2016-09-23T17:12:33Z pipping shakes his fist at clozure cl's run-program docs
2016-09-23T17:12:47Z raydeejay: code that never gets executed \o/
2016-09-23T17:12:58Z jasom: flip214: that was the most recent commit
2016-09-23T17:13:04Z jasom: https://github.com/death/dbus/commit/1ee13f0cafc350f0724d720b67107e2d0a5c3caf
2016-09-23T17:13:42Z jasom: only 3 months old
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2016-09-23T17:18:53Z mordocai: Asked this yesterday and a few min ago on #ccl, but since it is low traffic: Is there an equivalent of (sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy) in clozure? Or a way to get the same information (current compiler optimization settings)?
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2016-09-23T17:23:46Z loke`: mordocai: I was sure there was a library in QL who generaised that. That'd suggest there is such a thing in CCL
2016-09-23T17:23:58Z loke`: generalised, even
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2016-09-23T17:25:35Z mordocai: loke`: Hmm... wonder what it is then
2016-09-23T17:25:39Z mordocai: the library
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2016-09-23T17:26:32Z loke`: I can't remember its name, sadly
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2016-09-23T17:27:58Z Bike: you could do it with my introspect-environment with (declaration-information 'optimize)... i could put in a describe compiler policy i guess
2016-09-23T17:28:17Z Bike: though it wouldn't have the "(maybe)" stuff here
2016-09-23T17:28:54Z loke`: Ah wait. It was "policy-cond", I think
2016-09-23T17:29:45Z loke`: and yes, it calls into DECLARATION-INFORMATION
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2016-09-23T17:34:37Z mordocai: Yeah, (ccl:declaration-information 'optimize)  seems to get me what I need, thanks
2016-09-23T17:34:49Z mordocai: clhs declaration-information
2016-09-23T17:34:49Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for declaration-information.
2016-09-23T17:34:53Z mordocai: Yeah, didn't think so
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2016-09-23T18:00:19Z scymtym: it is described in CLtL2, but didn't make it into the standard, iirc
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2016-09-23T18:10:44Z phoe: I found a SBCL destroyer
2016-09-23T18:10:46Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/326909
2016-09-23T18:10:48Z phoe: by accidentr
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2016-09-23T18:46:16Z PuercoPop: axion: the in buffer macro expansions, macro-step is also present in SLIME, it as ported to SLY afterwards
2016-09-23T18:47:47Z axion: Ah ok.
2016-09-23T18:50:15Z PuercoPop: loke`: Sly has a #v<num> notation to refer to values returned in the REPL, they replace the way I used presentations. They could have a little better UX (like helm-swoop) though. In addition to what axion mention you can have multiple REPLs to the same image. And it uses comint-mode from emacs instead of its own implementation.
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2016-09-23T18:57:06Z drmeister: Xach: Ping
2016-09-23T18:57:22Z drmeister: Xach: How does quicklisp handle different versions of systems?
2016-09-23T18:57:43Z drmeister: Thats a general question - if anyone is familiar with the answer.
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2016-09-23T18:58:18Z drmeister: Let's say I deploy version 2.3 of something and it breaks people's stuff - can they unwind back to version 2.2?
2016-09-23T18:59:42Z axion: I don't think so with quicklisp itself, but the asdf source registry takes precedence
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2016-09-23T19:03:25Z pipping: drmeister: yes, you can go back to an older "dist"
2016-09-23T19:03:42Z pipping: drmeister: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html
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2016-09-23T19:06:09Z axion: I understood the question as rolling back a single project
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2016-09-23T19:07:09Z pipping: I don't think you can do it per-project, only per-dist. Would you have preferred the answer 'no, you only go back to an older "dist"'?
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2016-09-23T19:08:22Z pipping: (drmeister was looking into baking his own dist anyway)
2016-09-23T19:08:28Z axion: That depends on drmeister's use case. In the case of per-porject, there is more user work to do but still possible.
2016-09-23T19:09:34Z drmeister: Got it - thanks.
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2016-09-23T19:18:37Z jasom: you can make your own dist and select which projects you want; it's not too terrible.  Or you can just put the project(s) you want different in ~/local-projects/
2016-09-23T19:18:59Z jasom: also there is qlot, but I haven't used it myself
2016-09-23T19:19:08Z jasom: https://github.com/fukamachi/qlot
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2016-09-23T19:19:59Z otjura: I'm still bit confused. what's the difference in nutshell between SETF and SETQ ?
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2016-09-23T19:20:47Z White_Flame: setq is only for variable names.  setf is for general places, including variables
2016-09-23T19:21:02Z White_Flame: there's really no reason to use setq
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2016-09-23T19:21:34Z otjura: okay thanks, so I can use setf more widely.
2016-09-23T19:21:43Z otjura: but for variables both do
2016-09-23T19:21:46Z White_Flame: always use setf :)
2016-09-23T19:21:52Z White_Flame: setq is basically an anachronism
2016-09-23T19:22:40Z otjura: but on the other hand as setq is more restricted to variables in my opinion it should be used because it communicates intention and target better
2016-09-23T19:22:51Z raydeejay: nah
2016-09-23T19:22:56Z raydeejay: in this case setf is quite expressive
2016-09-23T19:22:57Z oGMo: not really :P
2016-09-23T19:22:58Z raydeejay: set a place
2016-09-23T19:23:01Z oGMo: ^
2016-09-23T19:23:24Z axion: setf everywhere, except elisp :)
2016-09-23T19:23:35Z otjura: why not elisp?
2016-09-23T19:23:38Z oGMo: elisp doesn't have that now?
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2016-09-23T19:24:21Z otjura: it has, just used it in .emacs on one line and thought "huh, it does the same trick.." and proceeded to ask here
2016-09-23T19:24:48Z flip214: question about IOLIB: can I replace a handler? using set-io-handler just runs into     (error "FD ~A is already monitored for event ~A" fd event-type)))
2016-09-23T19:25:28Z flip214: I'd like to set another read handler later on.
2016-09-23T19:25:39Z axion: oGMo: it does. but really nobody does by style
2016-09-23T19:26:14Z jasom: otjura: (setf x ...) <-- that sets a variable.  setq wouldn't be any more/less obvious IMO
2016-09-23T19:26:44Z jackdaniel: there is even (set x ...) ; which sets a symbol stored in x ;)
2016-09-23T19:27:03Z jasom: jackdaniel: it sets the symbol-value; set and setq both predate lexical bindings
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2016-09-23T19:27:35Z otjura: naa.. dunno about the obviousness.. I tend to memorize obscurely named things like terpri and progn better :)
2016-09-23T19:27:41Z jasom: the "q" is for "quote as in (set 'x ...) and (setq x ...) were the same, but the aren't anymore which is why setq is an anachronism
2016-09-23T19:28:31Z otjura: oh, didn't know the etymology. thanks for that.
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2016-09-23T19:29:36Z knobo: The function #'set  is deprecated.
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2016-09-23T19:30:36Z jasom: (let (result (x 1)) (set 'x 2) (push x result) (setq x 3) (push x result) result) ; => (3 1) ; proof that they are now different if anybody was wondering.
2016-09-23T19:32:09Z jasom: (let (result (x 1)) (declare (special x)) (set 'x 2) (push x result) (setq x 3) (push x result) result) ; => (3 2) ; for special variables they act the same; older lisps used dynamic bindings exclusively
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2016-09-23T19:42:55Z flip214: _death: see https://github.com/phmarek/dbus for my work-in-progress.
2016-09-23T19:43:07Z flip214: it's still incomplete, but any feedback would be welcome...
2016-09-23T19:43:32Z flip214: just make pull-requests, or if you prefer, we can work in one repository too
2016-09-23T19:44:31Z flip214: I got you the rights, so feel free to push any comments, hints, or changes
2016-09-23T19:44:35Z flip214: thank you!
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2016-09-23T20:19:27Z mordocai: So, the result from me finally being able to double check the optimize settings in ecl, ccl, and sbcl is that all three have their declaim optimize settings "leak" to other files. So, https://git.mordocai.net/mordocai/forever-game-roguelike/src/master/start-game.lisp makes forever-game-roguelike system files be compiled with the given optimize settings.
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2016-09-23T20:19:51Z mordocai: Now I need to figure out my sly/slynk issues and fix some bugs in cl-charms and I'm ready to write a game lol
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2016-09-23T20:24:24Z pjb: mordocai: that's why you should never have global declaim/proclaim in source files!
2016-09-23T20:24:43Z mordocai: pjb: I purposely do for good reason there
2016-09-23T20:24:46Z mordocai: But yeah, in general agree
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2016-09-23T21:00:29Z jasom: pjb: what do you do?  Manually put in a declare or have something like (defun-optimized ...)?
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2016-09-23T21:06:21Z mordocai: jasom: The policy-cond's system with-policy looks promising
2016-09-23T21:06:39Z mordocai: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/policy-cond/src/568186761e1965dda952c129e3e92264c59389fe/policy-cond.lisp?at=default&fileviewer=file-view-default
2016-09-23T21:08:27Z pipping: Can Eitaro Fukamachi ever be found on here?
2016-09-23T21:08:46Z mordocai: pipping: I don't think so but i won't swear to it
2016-09-23T21:09:20Z pipping: mordocai: thanks. no swearing necessary.
2016-09-23T21:09:34Z mordocai: jasom: policy-cond needs ecl support though!
2016-09-23T21:09:45Z mordocai goes off to check if ecl has something like the others
2016-09-23T21:11:04Z edgar-rft: pipping: this guy? <https://github.com/fukamachi> If yes you'll have more chances on #lispweb
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2016-09-23T21:21:52Z mordocai: It looks like ecl does -not- implement declaration-information anywhere, based on searching the codebase.
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2016-09-23T22:29:07Z pipping: can I destructure a vector?
2016-09-23T22:29:26Z pipping: (nth-value 1 (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings)) is a vector :/
2016-09-23T22:29:47Z Bike: don't think so.
2016-09-23T22:29:52Z Bike: you can coerce to a list if you like.
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2016-09-23T22:30:22Z pipping: that might indeed be the cleanest solution. good point, thanks
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2016-09-23T23:30:24Z drmeister: Hey Bike.   I've got a few more days of work on this proposal and then I can try the type inference stuff.
2016-09-23T23:31:27Z Bike: yo. it's not in the proposal, except maybe as a future thing, right? cos last time you mentioned it shinmera goaded me into fixing a pretty major issue, it's probably really not ready
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2016-09-24T00:14:08Z fiddlerwoaroof:  
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2016-09-24T00:15:05Z fe[nl]ix: fiddlerwoaroof: wise words
2016-09-24T00:15:19Z hydPaz is now known as hydraz
2016-09-24T00:15:34Z pipping: https://twitter.com/plato
2016-09-24T00:16:15Z pillton: beach: Are you here?
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2016-09-24T00:20:04Z fiddlerwoaroof:   
2016-09-24T00:20:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: My stumpwm prefix involves the spacebar and sometimes I forget which window is currently receiving input.
2016-09-24T00:21:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's interesting that IRC lets you send a message with only whitespace characters, though
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2016-09-24T00:23:06Z pipping: given how difficult it is to detect whitespace... (' '!='　' e.g.)
2016-09-24T00:23:29Z drmeister: Bike: I say that we are going to implement type inference
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2016-09-24T00:24:26Z drmeister: What pretty major issue? And how would he know there is an issue if there is no running code?
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2016-09-24T00:25:57Z drmeister: pillton: Speaking as someone who has laid in wait for beach many times to bask in his brilliance - he's usually on in about 3 hours.
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2016-09-24T00:26:52Z pillton: oh right. Actually you might be able to help me.
2016-09-24T00:27:33Z pillton: Do you know where in SICL is the code for detecting dead code? e.g. (progn (return-from block 1) (print "hey")).
2016-09-24T00:27:42Z pipping: is there a better way to read the last n lines from a file than this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/326920
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2016-09-24T00:28:21Z pipping: (where n << number-of-lines)
2016-09-24T00:28:41Z pjb: pipping: depends.
2016-09-24T00:29:01Z pipping: pjb: please elaborate
2016-09-24T00:29:19Z pjb: pipping: if you have a random-access file, then you can jump to the end, back up one block, read it, count the lines. If not enough, back up one more block, etc.
2016-09-24T00:29:41Z drmeister: pillton: Sorry, not off the top of my head.
2016-09-24T00:29:45Z pjb: pipping: but sometimes you don't have random-access files. Sometimes you have sequential access files.  Then you have to do what you did.
2016-09-24T00:30:23Z pjb: pipping: also, sometimes you cannot determine lines without reading the file from the start (depending on the encoding).  But happily, this doesn't occur often, common encodings are rather sane in this respect.
2016-09-24T00:30:25Z drmeister: I spent a lot of time with the code early on.  I'm not even sure it was there at that point.
2016-09-24T00:30:30Z pillton: drmeister: No worries.
2016-09-24T00:31:00Z pipping: pjb: I'm happy I asked. how would I determine a good block size, though?
2016-09-24T00:31:23Z pjb: pipping: but what that means, is that in the case of eg. utf-8, you must discard the first few bytes of the block if they have the high bit set.
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2016-09-24T00:32:48Z pjb: pipping: hardware usually have 512-byte blocks, but OSes usually use a bigger blocking factor, like, 4KB blocks. On the other hand, with magnetic hard disks, there's the notion of track or even of cylinder, and it's often efficient to read files track by track or cylinder by cylinder.  Unfortunately, here the size is more variable, on the order of 16 KB to 256 KB.
2016-09-24T00:33:48Z pjb: pipping: so to make it simple, you can read blocks of 4K. start with (file-position stream (truncate (file-length stream) (* 4 1024))) and go down. (the first block read might be not full).
2016-09-24T00:34:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Don't recent drives usually have 4K blocks? I remember a bunch of fuss about this when I was researching for my ZFS fileserver
2016-09-24T00:34:59Z pjb: I've not noticed, at least for magnetic media.  SSD is another matter.
2016-09-24T00:35:01Z pipping: pjb: thanks, I'll try that. (it'll have to wait until tomorrow, though)
2016-09-24T00:35:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: I think anything larger than a TB or two uses 4k blocks these days
2016-09-24T00:36:16Z pjb: Probably.  Anyways, the disk controllers have multi-megabyte caches, so I would expect them to read whole tracks or cylinders actually.  The blocking is "virtual". between the disk controller and the host.
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2016-09-24T00:37:51Z pjb: Nowdays, you can find on the web technical information about your hardware to check those details, and you can read linux drivers' sources.
2016-09-24T00:39:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: cat /sys/class/block/sd?/queue/physical_block_size and cat /sys/class/block/sd?/queue/logical_block_size
2016-09-24T00:40:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I suppose this is off-topic
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2016-09-24T01:20:24Z akkad: in the case of (defvar foo "test") (myfunc foo) can myfunc determine the name of the variable passed to it?
2016-09-24T01:20:35Z Bike: no.
2016-09-24T01:21:01Z Bike: half the point of a compiler is to erase that information.
2016-09-24T01:21:04Z Bike: what do you want to do?
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2016-09-24T01:23:58Z akkad: passing a hash to a function, and want to keep a "max key value" without doing a maphash everytime to get max key value.
2016-09-24T01:24:29Z akkad: wanted to keep an external max value int in a hash keyed on name of hash
2016-09-24T01:25:51Z Bike: make a struct with the hash and the information, pass that. or just pass the max along with the hash.
2016-09-24T01:26:05Z Bike: or make a hashtable keyed on the hashtable.
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2016-09-24T01:27:50Z akkad: gp. thanks
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2016-09-24T02:47:54Z phf: hello, is there a way to force quicklisp to reinstall all packages? (i.e. remove the files, download them again, compile)
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2016-09-24T03:07:36Z JuanDaugherty: phf, reinstall ql?
2016-09-24T03:08:16Z JuanDaugherty: i believe there is directory which can be cleared to that effect
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2016-09-24T03:10:34Z JuanDaugherty: ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/ on this box i think
2016-09-24T03:11:05Z cpc26:  (ql-dist:installed-releases (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp"))
2016-09-24T03:11:18Z cpc26: remove the asdf and it will relaod
2016-09-24T03:11:31Z JuanDaugherty: yeah was pretty sure there was a command
2016-09-24T03:11:32Z cpc26: the list from previous show everything installed
2016-09-24T03:11:43Z cpc26: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/tools/quicklisp.lisp
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2016-09-24T03:12:01Z cpc26: if you have your list of installed you can blow it away
2016-09-24T03:12:21Z cpc26: rebuild from the list - make sure you keep the repos to your locals
2016-09-24T03:12:26Z cpc26: hope this helps
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2016-09-24T04:07:26Z phf: he left, but yes, that's probably what i need. i'll give it atry
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2016-09-24T04:25:04Z names: funnel vert2_ o`connor Walex wizzo karswell` tokenrove ssice Kaisyu2 jlarocco` unbalanced d4ryus jleija Trystam fkac reepca cromachina wooden__ krasnal rodgger marusich otjura srcerer xantoz alexherbo2 freehck dmiles kolko msb eschatologist zkat mjl l1x vertigo pillton cibs justinmcp dlowe DeadTrickster TMA larme Tordek Intensity vibs29 zacts watersoul bitch gargaml ramus otwieracz Justinus aerique zbigniew setheus __main__ jsnell isoraqathedh Glitchy
2016-09-24T04:25:04Z names: Zotan Jesin logrus M-Illandan roscoe_tw Atarian p_l sake ym d4gg4d groovy2shoes oGMo tuctuc shikhin heurist woona Sigyn clog StephanLahl johs ircbrowse cpt_nemo fUD ritschmaster jdz kjak benny des_consolado drdo dxtr Xof mearnsh yeltzooo mathrick DrCode jbalint White_Flame neuri8 dwchandler z0d qlkzy impaktor anachrom1 fluxit shymega euphoria- ski thomas mrSpec axion Urfin kini spacebat2 thortron fiddlerwoaroof loke` nicdev tax libreman Lord_of_Life gbyers
2016-09-24T04:25:04Z names: PuercoPop gko Subfusc gz__ megalography mordocai Posterdati Nikotiini whiteline Zhivago flip214 abbe drmeister danlentz wyan rvirding splittist billstclair pkkm akkad cyberlard xristos mood gypsydave5 thijso tokik theBlackDragon ck_ forgot troydm eMBee cmatei keix Xach pipping vsync kjak_ loke jackc aap lxpz Lord_Nightmare dim mikaelj djsjadkhf stux|RC-only jurov antoszka ferada jackdaniel adlai tkd cell WojciechK trinitr0n SiCC jtz cross_ killmaster
2016-09-24T04:25:04Z names: SAL9000 finnrobi marsjaninzmarsa tomaw j_king pareidolia mmos snits Mandus tfb asedeno djh gendl Firedancer sword alms_clozure ejt joga
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2016-09-24T05:32:52Z PuercoPop: pillton: Btw, you were right on the brittleness of the testing only the name of the directory. I tried to simplify the code and the tests pass but the variable points to the ASDF cache.
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2016-09-24T05:39:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-09-24T05:40:12Z beach: pillton: It is detected by the fact that the instruction is not reachable in the HIR graph.
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2016-09-24T05:48:01Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2016-09-24T05:48:55Z drmeister: Thank you in advance for the letter.
2016-09-24T05:49:05Z beach: Sure.  How urgent is it?
2016-09-24T05:49:15Z drmeister: Could I get it by Tuesday?
2016-09-24T05:49:20Z beach: Sure.
2016-09-24T05:49:24Z drmeister: Thanks.
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2016-09-24T05:52:09Z drmeister: I'm off to bed - I'll talk to you later.
2016-09-24T05:52:17Z beach: 'night drmeister.
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2016-09-24T07:36:53Z a-random-guy: Anyone know why, if I login to Hacker News using Drakma (with a post request to "https://new.ycombinator.com/login"), it sets the `user` cookies path to "/login" rather than "/" (like browsers do)? Is that a bug in Drakma, or is there a setting I should change?
2016-09-24T07:37:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: a-random-guy: how does curl work?
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2016-09-24T07:44:46Z a-random-guy: fiddlerwoaroof: Curl seems to set it to "/" as well
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2016-09-24T08:04:04Z a-random-guy: I guess that's caused by line 294 in drakma/cookies.lisp where it initializes the path to `(or (parameter-value "path" parameters) (puri:uri-path uri) "/")`, so if there is no path given in the response, it defaults to the uri-path, while browsers and Curl just default to "/". Any idea if that's a bug or intentional?
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2016-09-24T08:30:23Z pillton: beach: Ok. I figured as much based on my quick look. Thanks for getting back to me.
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2016-09-24T08:32:27Z beach: Pleasure!
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2016-09-24T09:04:12Z sausages_: I'm trying to squish all warnings in my project and I'm running into instances where using AREF on arrays with declared types has the compiler spit out complaints that the array is "not of asserted type VECTOR".  the actual array variable is of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY SINGLE-FLOAT (256 4)).  is making it a generic, typeless, vanilla VECTOR the only way to squish this particular warning?
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2016-09-24T09:05:10Z beach: sausages_: Did you pass enough arguments to AREF?
2016-09-24T09:05:19Z sausages_: yup, it works as intended
2016-09-24T09:05:32Z sausages_: it's used in a font lookup table for string rendering
2016-09-24T09:06:04Z beach: What does your declaration look like?
2016-09-24T09:08:48Z sausages_: *font-uv* is of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY SINGLE-FLOAT (256 4))
2016-09-24T09:09:03Z sausages_: whoa wait a minute... just spotted something.  one sec
2016-09-24T09:09:10Z beach: I am not asking what type it IS, but what type you declared it to be.
2016-09-24T09:09:48Z sausages_: I declared it type font-uv-type which is a deftype that expands to the same thing
2016-09-24T09:10:10Z beach: Hmm.
2016-09-24T09:10:39Z beach: That ought to work.  This is SBCL I presume?
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2016-09-24T09:11:29Z sausages_: ohh, hold on.  I confused myself.  sorry, I'm literally wasting your time.  I should've deleted the older definition of this function that isn't even used.  sorry for the trouble.
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2016-09-24T09:11:51Z beach: No problem.
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2016-09-24T10:16:49Z beach: I can't figure out what the Common Lisp HyperSpec says about the required functionality (if any) of the debugger.  Any pointers to a section?
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2016-09-24T10:31:14Z JuanDaugherty doubts there would be such, does the spec ever specify implementation stuff like that other than normatively?
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2016-09-24T10:39:18Z JuanDaugherty: just the special variables and hooks, what little they imply in the one I looked at
2016-09-24T10:42:18Z JuanDaugherty: break on signals from the example
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2016-09-24T11:00:09Z beach: Yeah, that is what I concluded.
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2016-09-24T12:56:03Z pipping: clhs directory
2016-09-24T12:56:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm
2016-09-24T12:56:15Z pipping: "[..] If the pathspec is not wild, the resulting list will contain either zero or one elements [..]"
2016-09-24T12:56:45Z raydeejay waits for the point
2016-09-24T12:56:48Z pipping: So that means, if I pass something to `directory` for which `wild-pathname-p` is nil, I cannot get a list of length 2 or greater
2016-09-24T12:57:02Z pipping: Unless I'm missing something, allegro cl and lispworks thus violate the spec :(
2016-09-24T12:57:39Z raydeejay: hm...
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2016-09-24T13:00:19Z raydeejay: after some reading I would tend to think the same
2016-09-24T13:00:25Z pipping: raydeejay: http://dpaste.com/0ZDYWBA
2016-09-24T13:00:29Z raydeejay wonders how that works
2016-09-24T13:00:59Z raydeejay: um
2016-09-24T13:01:35Z pipping: (yes, they also don't agree on which files they return)
2016-09-24T13:01:58Z raydeejay scratches head
2016-09-24T13:03:24Z edgar-rft: The "Notes" section in the Hyperspec is not part of ANSI CL, see <http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/01_ddo.htm>
2016-09-24T13:04:09Z pipping: ****
2016-09-24T13:04:44Z raydeejay: "will except when it will not"
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2016-09-24T13:04:53Z raydeejay: "please enjoy the confusion"
2016-09-24T13:05:00Z edgar-rft: :-)
2016-09-24T13:05:28Z raydeejay: it's a good thing to know when reading the clhs, thanks ^^
2016-09-24T13:06:15Z pipping mumbles something about shoulders of giants and toes of midgets
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2016-09-24T13:06:27Z edgar-rft: all code "Examples" sections were added later, too
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2016-09-24T13:07:53Z pipping: edgar-rft: Thanks.
2016-09-24T13:08:22Z cromachina: uiop:parse-native-namestring fixes that wild-pathname crap for me
2016-09-24T13:09:22Z cromachina: (uiop:parse-native-namestring (namestring (merge-pathnames file dir)))
2016-09-24T13:10:14Z pipping: cromachina: I'm not convinced that that's related to this very issue
2016-09-24T13:10:28Z edgar-rft: lets test uiop:parse-native-namestring with weird nonsense to see what comes out :-)
2016-09-24T13:11:48Z raydeejay: (with-nonsense ...)
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2016-09-24T13:13:05Z edgar-rft: (uiop:parse-native-namestring "(°(..)°)") => #P"(°(..)°)"
2016-09-24T13:13:27Z cromachina: no i guess it doesn't, but man do 'wild-by-default' pathnames irritate me
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2016-09-24T13:14:28Z raydeejay: the thing is... it sort of makes sense
2016-09-24T13:14:36Z raydeejay: and not :D
2016-09-24T13:14:40Z pipping: raydeejay: the what-what now?
2016-09-24T13:14:50Z pipping: raydeejay: you take that back! :P
2016-09-24T13:14:58Z raydeejay: (directory #p"/etc/")
2016-09-24T13:15:01Z raydeejay: no? xD
2016-09-24T13:15:25Z pipping: that can give you anything
2016-09-24T13:15:37Z raydeejay: I mean, I'm asking for the directory on a directory
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2016-09-24T13:16:02Z pipping: lispworks: 224 entries returned; allegro cl: 226 entries returned; sbcl: 1 entry returned.
2016-09-24T13:16:06Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-24T13:16:09Z pipping: that's not exactly useful behaviour.
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2016-09-24T13:16:34Z raydeejay: they'll tell you that it's 224 times as useful
2016-09-24T13:17:37Z pipping: it's difficult to build a castle on quicksand, unfortunately.
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2016-09-24T13:17:43Z raydeejay blames it all on filesystems
2016-09-24T13:17:53Z raydeejay: we should store things in blocks, a là Forth
2016-09-24T13:18:04Z pipping: it's nice that lispworks and sbcl can agree on returning 113 entries for (uiop:directory-files #p"/etc/"). But allegro cl prefers to give me 121.
2016-09-24T13:18:42Z pipping: (if you're wondering: symlinks are the issue)
2016-09-24T13:19:21Z raydeejay: maybe those DIRECTORY have some of those unspecified &key parameters that the clhs talks about?
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2016-09-24T13:20:33Z edgar-rft: (directory <pathspec>) returns "a list of physical pathnames", what is not necessarily the same as "a list of sensible pathnames", where at least in Unix/Linux a directory is a special sort of file.
2016-09-24T13:20:36Z pipping: there's plenty of those, yes. just nothing consistent.
2016-09-24T13:20:42Z raydeejay: maybe :surprise nil
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2016-09-24T13:21:16Z edgar-rft: :surprise nil would be boring
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2016-09-24T18:46:01Z names: ccl-logbot foom2 d4ryus ejt Posterdati angavrilov Naraka edgar-rft renard_ harish dxtr_ Firedancer phoe __main__ Karunamon Anselmo ghostlight clop danieli peccu dilated_dinosaur sshirokov Colleen ramus johs ivan4th` quazimod1 whiteline heddwch Guest57142 megalography1 octo- kolko_ nefercheprure justinmcp_ isoraqathedh_ hebroon_ Cthulhux NhanH_ derrida LahlStephan Tordek_ Guest57693 Bike_ failproofshark emma Kaisyu22 aeth_ gingerale- pozori myrkraverk
2016-09-24T18:46:01Z names: neoncontrails killmaster abbe_ vaporatorius__ quasisane schjetne tokenrov1 cpc26 payphone_ mishoo_ fkae Ven_ scymtym trig-ger pkkm Subfusc nydel ritschmaster k4rtik les pchrist drdo ggole StephanLahl jdz_ arpunk1 svgDelux SpaceDanceCJ EvW wildlander tiago defaultxr holly2 easye zacharias marsjaninzmarsa test1600 grublet tristero attila_lendvai jason_m Rajamaa AntiSpamMeta alexherbo2 ASau justinabrahms pjb minion kilimanjaro copec SlashLife ristur Blkt
2016-09-24T18:46:01Z names: fe[nl]ix mbrock mercurial lpaste tanuzzo tobel velvetcore rotty lieven joshe rann leo_song ec\ giraffe_ josteink emeritus aaronjensen Merv XachX_ banjiewen Patzy dan64 itscaleb jokleinn misv ft gniourf grindhold toogley jasom_ MolluskEmpire raydeejay Quadrescence moei ozzloy Fade tilpner mnoonan swflint switchy wooden__ freehck dmiles msb eschatologist zkat l1x vertigo pillton cibs zacts watersoul bitch gargaml otwieracz zbigniew setheus Glitchy
2016-09-24T18:46:01Z names: M-Illandan p_l sake d4gg4d groovy2shoes oGMo tuctuc shikhin heurist Sigyn clog cpt_nemo benny dxtr Xof mearnsh mathrick DrCode jbalint White_Flame neuri8 dwchandler z0d qlkzy impaktor anachrom1 fluxit shymega euphoria- ski thomas mrSpec axion Urfin kini spacebat2 thortron fiddlerwoaroof loke` nicdev Lord_of_Life gbyers Nikotiini Zhivago drmeister danlentz wyan rvirding splittist billstclair cyberlard xristos tomaw mmos Mandus tfb asedeno gendl
2016-09-24T18:46:01Z names: alms_clozure finnrobi SAL9000 cross_ jtz SiCC trinitr0n WojciechK cell tkd adlai jackdaniel ferada antoszka jurov stux|RC-only djsjadkhf mikaelj dim Lord_Nightmare aap vsync pipping Xach keix cmatei eMBee troydm forgot ck_ theBlackDragon tokik thijso gypsydave5 mood
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2016-09-24T19:20:58Z 
2016-09-24T19:20:58Z names: ccl-logbot l1x trn mbrock housel gypsydave5 nydel makufiru Khisanth kilimanjaro davsebamse TeMPOraL tristero quazimodo des_consolado djh emma mood Ober gensym hjudt ineiros sz0 taij33n cmpitg_ dmiles ramus arrdem xantoz Neet banjiewen libreman DeadTrickster unrahul tessier schoppenhauer1 fUD cmatei mordocai justinabrahms Nikotiini rvirding gz__ ``Erik jokleinn2 krasnal_ ggole kjak phoe lxpz_ jbalint JuanDaugherty kbtr tokik drp __main__ smithzv_ edgar-rft
2016-09-24T19:20:58Z names: Oddity harish Intensity joga nightfly_ renard_ gabot djinni` splittist ASau _mjl john-mcaleely pipping tilpner mastokley PuercoPop vaporatorius foom2 larme White_Flame kushal- larsen seg sshirokov phadthai Orion3k cods defaultxr ivan4th fluter AntiSpamMeta tiago segmond jlarocco` zymurgy brucem marusich watersoul_ bocaneri stepnem Anselmo gbyers drot AeroNotix angavrilov pacon askatasuna fiddlerwoaroof nhandler kjeldahl wizzo Xach_ sigjuice thinkpad
2016-09-24T19:20:58Z names: yeltzooo eschulte sdothum derrida Bike rogersm ghostlight_ ecraven constantinexvi Velveeta_Chef_ emeritusnot isoraqathedh mtd_ pareidolia sjl killmaster vsync_ unbalanced gingerale pierpa` vlatkoB zeraceth prole`` dlowe steelbird ejt_ PlasmaStar MightyJoe myrkraverk Tordek brandonz_ Ando_ gigetoo snits vibs29 _death ircbrows- samebcha1e schjetne_ aerique2 jason_m` jself_ jsnell_ luis` Colleen JRajamaa mjl H4ns Oladon1 specbot hebroon Kundry_Wag grublet2
2016-09-24T19:20:58Z names: test1600_ el-mikl knobo jleija woona eagleflo jackc pkkm gko j_king zaquest akkad flip214 pok whartung hellcode kjak_ voidlily j0ni lemoinem GGMethos_ yeticry vlnx iskander Walex zwwwdr Mon_Ouie norfumpit nocd Justinus spacebat2 sukaeto loke |3b|` Zotan_ vert2_ ritschmaster froggey e kus_ubuntui686 ssice sbryant jackdaniel d4ryus dxtr Firedancer Karunamon clop danieli peccu dilated_dinosaur johs heddwch Guest57142 megalography1 octo- kolko_ nefercheprure
2016-09-24T19:20:58Z names: justinmcp_ LahlStephan failproofshark Kaisyu22 aeth neoncontrails abbe_ quasisane tokenrov1 cpc26 payphone_ fkac scymtym Subfusc les pchrist drdo jdz_ arpunk1 svgDelux EvW wildlander easye zacharias marsjaninzmarsa attila_lendvai alexherbo2 pjb minion copec SlashLife ristur Blkt fe[nl]ix mercurial lpaste tanuzzo tobel velvetcore rotty lieven joshe leo_song ec\ josteink Merv XachX_ Patzy dan64 itscaleb misv ft gniourf grindhold toogley jasom MolluskEmpire
2016-09-24T19:20:58Z names: raydeejay Quadrescence moei ozzloy Fade mnoonan swflint switchy wooden__ freehck msb eschatologist zkat vertigo pillton cibs bitch gargaml otwieracz zbigniew setheus Glitchy M-Illandan p_l sake groovy2shoes oGMo tuctuc shikhin heurist Sigyn clog cpt_nemo benny mearnsh mathrick neuri8 dwchandler z0d qlkzy impaktor anachrom1 fluxit shymega euphoria- ski thomas mrSpec axion Urfin kini thortron loke` nicdev Lord_of_Life billstclair xristos aap Lord_Nightmare
2016-09-24T19:20:58Z names: dim mikaelj djsjadkhf stux|RC-only jurov tomaw mmos Mandus asedeno gendl alms_clozure finnrobi SAL9000 cross_ jtz SiCC trinitr0n WojciechK cell tkd adlai ferada antoszka
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2016-09-24T19:40:08Z 
2016-09-24T19:40:08Z names: ccl-logbot zacharias peey dlowe_ grindhold_ trinitr01 mathrick Rajamaa SAL9000_ whartung scymtym_ neoncont_ jokleinn3 hellcode` jackc_ darklisper Quadresce` pierpa` Win7__ lnostdal whiteline areinisch Baggers angular_mike_ d4gg4d lancetw wyan vhost- Fade aaronjensen thijso ggherdov funnel payphone trig-ger Davidbrcz theBlackDragon stux|RC-only danlentz octo_ p_l MolluskEmpire rann NhanH_ CEnnis91 MorTal1ty cpc26 hydraz nopf tfb Naraka l1x trn mbrock
2016-09-24T19:40:08Z names: housel gypsydave5 nydel makufiru Khisanth kilimanjaro davsebamse TeMPOraL tristero des_consolado djh emma mood Ober gensym hjudt ineiros sz0 taij33n cmpitg_ dmiles ramus arrdem xantoz Neet banjiewen libreman DeadTrickster unrahul tessier schoppenhauer1 fUD cmatei justinabrahms Nikotiini rvirding gz__ ``Erik krasnal_ ggole lxpz_ JuanDaugherty tokik drp __main__ smithzv_ edgar-rft Oddity harish Intensity joga nightfly_ renard_ djinni` splittist _mjl
2016-09-24T19:40:08Z names: john-mcaleely pipping mastokley PuercoPop foom2 larme White_Flame kushal- larsen seg sshirokov cods ivan4th fluter AntiSpamMeta tiago segmond jlarocco` zymurgy brucem marusich watersoul_ bocaneri stepnem Anselmo gbyers drot AeroNotix angavrilov pacon askatasuna fiddlerwoaroof nhandler kjeldahl wizzo Xach_ sigjuice thinkpad yeltzooo eschulte sdothum derrida Bike rogersm ghostlight ecraven constantinexvi Velveeta_Chef_ emeritusnot isoraqathedh mtd_
2016-09-24T19:40:08Z names: pareidolia sjl vsync_ unbalanced gingerale zeraceth prole`` steelbird MightyJoe Tordek Ando_ vibs29 ircbrows- samebcha1e schjetne_ aerique2 jason_m` jself_ jsnell_ luis` Colleen mjl H4ns Oladon1 specbot Kundry_Wag test1600_ knobo jleija woona eagleflo pkkm gko j_king akkad flip214 j0ni lemoinem GGMethos_ yeticry vlnx iskander Walex zwwwdr Mon_Ouie norfumpit nocd Justinus spacebat2 sukaeto loke froggey e kus_ubuntui686 ssice sbryant jackdaniel d4ryus dxtr
2016-09-24T19:40:08Z names: Firedancer Karunamon clop danieli peccu dilated_dinosaur johs heddwch Guest57142 kolko_ nefercheprure LahlStephan Kaisyu22 aeth abbe_ quasisane tokenrov1 |3b|` fkac Zotan_ vert2_ ritschmaster Subfusc les pchrist drdo jdz_ arpunk1 svgDelux EvW wildlander easye marsjaninzmarsa attila_lendvai alexherbo2 pjb copec SlashLife ristur Blkt fe[nl]ix mercurial lpaste tanuzzo tobel velvetcore rotty lieven joshe Merv XachX_ gniourf toogley jasom raydeejay moei
2016-09-24T19:40:08Z names: ozzloy mnoonan swflint switchy freehck msb eschatologist zkat pillton cibs bitch gargaml Glitchy M-Illandan sake groovy2shoes oGMo tuctuc shikhin Sigyn cpt_nemo benny mearnsh dwchandler z0d qlkzy impaktor anachrom1 fluxit shymega euphoria- ski thomas mrSpec axion Urfin kini thortron loke` nicdev Lord_of_Life billstclair xristos aap Lord_Nightmare dim mikaelj djsjadkhf jurov tomaw mmos Mandus asedeno gendl alms_clozure
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2016-09-24T20:06:09Z names: ccl-logbot Orion3k omilu megalography dlowe taij33n ineiros gensym gabot DeadTrickster angular_mike_ hebroon zacts cebreidian justinmcp payphone gigetoo larme JRajamaa dan64 vaporatorius Quadrescence kjak adlai brandonz zaquest josteink tkd grublet2 whiteline kjak_ vertigo SiCC ASau rann lancetw cell jbalint mordocai neuri8 itscaleb gravicappa voidlily defaultxr _death vlatkoB leo_song DrCode setheus finnrobi misv Patzy pok grindhold_ trinitr01 SAL9000_
2016-09-24T20:06:09Z names: whartung neoncont_ jokleinn3 hellcode` lnostdal areinisch Baggers d4gg4d wyan vhost- Fade aaronjensen ggherdov trig-ger Davidbrcz stux|RC-only danlentz octo_ p_l MolluskEmpire NhanH_ CEnnis91 MorTal1ty cpc26 hydraz nopf tfb Naraka l1x mbrock housel nydel makufiru Khisanth kilimanjaro davsebamse des_consolado emma hjudt sz0 cmpitg_ dmiles xantoz Neet banjiewen libreman unrahul tessier schoppenhauer1 fUD cmatei justinabrahms Nikotiini rvirding gz__ ``Erik
2016-09-24T20:06:09Z names: krasnal_ ggole lxpz_ JuanDaugherty tokik drp __main__ smithzv_ edgar-rft Oddity harish Intensity joga nightfly_ renard_ djinni` splittist _mjl john-mcaleely pipping mastokley PuercoPop foom2 White_Flame kushal- larsen seg sshirokov cods ivan4th fluter AntiSpamMeta tiago segmond jlarocco` zymurgy brucem watersoul_ bocaneri stepnem Anselmo gbyers drot AeroNotix angavrilov pacon askatasuna fiddlerwoaroof nhandler kjeldahl wizzo Xach_ sigjuice thinkpad
2016-09-24T20:06:09Z names: yeltzooo eschulte sdothum derrida Bike rogersm ghostlight ecraven constantinexvi Velveeta_Chef_ mtd_ pareidolia sjl vsync_ unbalanced gingerale zeraceth emeritusnot prole`` steelbird MightyJoe Tordek Ando_ vibs29 ircbrows- samebcha1e schjetne_ aerique2 jason_m` jself_ jsnell_ luis` Colleen mjl H4ns Oladon1 specbot Kundry_Wag test1600_ knobo isoraqathedh jleija woona eagleflo pkkm gko j_king akkad flip214 j0ni lemoinem GGMethos_ yeticry vlnx iskander Walex
2016-09-24T20:06:09Z names: zwwwdr Mon_Ouie norfumpit nocd Justinus spacebat2 sukaeto loke |3b| Zotan_ vert2_ ritschmaster froggey e kus_ubuntui686 ssice sbryant jackdaniel d4ryus dxtr Firedancer Karunamon clop danieli peccu dilated_dinosaur johs heddwch Guest57142 kolko_ nefercheprure LahlStephan Kaisyu22 aeth abbe_ quasisane tokenrov1 fkac Subfusc les pchrist drdo jdz_ arpunk1 svgDelux EvW wildlander easye marsjaninzmarsa attila_lendvai alexherbo2 pjb copec SlashLife ristur Blkt
2016-09-24T20:06:09Z names: fe[nl]ix mercurial lpaste tanuzzo tobel velvetcore rotty lieven joshe Merv XachX_ gniourf toogley jasom raydeejay moei ozzloy mnoonan swflint switchy freehck msb eschatologist zkat pillton cibs bitch gargaml Glitchy M-Illandan sake groovy2shoes oGMo tuctuc shikhin Sigyn cpt_nemo benny mearnsh dwchandler z0d qlkzy impaktor anachrom1 fluxit shymega euphoria- ski thomas mrSpec axion Urfin kini thortron loke` nicdev Lord_of_Life billstclair xristos aap
2016-09-24T20:06:09Z names: Lord_Nightmare dim mikaelj djsjadkhf jurov tomaw mmos Mandus asedeno gendl alms_clozure
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2016-09-24T20:21:34Z names: ccl-logbot Anselmo ferada tristero Velveeta_Chef adlai cmatei zaquest sigjuice askatasuna vaporatorius drp ecraven lxpz_ joast phadthai harish MolluskEmpire killmaster _death norfumpit scymtym fiddlerwoaroof zymurgy vhost- ssice gabot Nikotiini ghostlight SiCC voidlily watersoul dmiles dan64 josteink ggole justinmcp White_Flame krasnal_ neuri8 steelbird grindhold vsync justinabrahms p_l Bike luis jleija stepnem failproofshark nocd PuercoPop libreman vlatkoB
2016-09-24T20:21:34Z names: hydraz tiago emeritus wizzo brucem_ mastokley Orion3k phoe cods JRajamaa jlarocco` jself kjak rogersm itscaleb misv Fade housel derrida gigetoo isoraqathedh_ sbryant foom2 kjeldahl_ o`connor_ Subfusc benny davsebam1e ``Erik_ Posterdati yeltzooo9 hjudt_ trinitr0n vertigo_ WojciechK defaultxr yeticry payphone_ Patzy_ Quadresce` nocaberi djinni`_ hebroon_ tilpner grublet Oladon ec\ whartung Xach ym ircbrowse Colleen nicdev` pok john-mca` angavrilov_ gargaml
2016-09-24T20:21:34Z names: ASau` minion wooden_ theBlackDragon gypsydave5 TeMPOraL sausages zacharias ineiros angular_mike_ zacts larme cell areinisch wyan trig-ger Davidbrcz CEnnis91 tfb mbrock nydel makufiru Neet rvirding __main__ Oddity Intensity joga nightfly_ renard_ fluter AntiSpamMeta segmond nhandler eschulte mtd_ pareidolia sjl unbalanced gingerale zeraceth MightyJoe Tordek Ando_ vibs29 schjetne_ aerique2 jsnell_ mjl H4ns specbot Kundry_Wag test1600_ knobo woona eagleflo
2016-09-24T20:21:34Z names: pkkm gko j_king j0ni GGMethos_ vlnx iskander zwwwdr Mon_Ouie Justinus spacebat2 sukaeto |3b| Zotan_ vert2_ ritschmaster froggey e kus_ubuntui686 jackdaniel d4ryus dxtr clop danieli peccu dilated_dinosaur johs heddwch Guest57142 kolko_ nefercheprure LahlStephan Kaisyu22 aeth abbe_ quasisane tokenrov1 fkac les pchrist drdo jdz_ arpunk1 svgDelux EvW wildlander easye marsjaninzmarsa attila_lendvai alexherbo2 pjb copec SlashLife ristur Blkt fe[nl]ix mercurial
2016-09-24T20:21:34Z names: lpaste tanuzzo tobel velvetcore rotty lieven joshe XachX_ gniourf toogley jasom raydeejay moei ozzloy mnoonan swflint switchy freehck msb eschatologist pillton cibs bitch Glitchy M-Illandan sake groovy2shoes oGMo tuctuc shikhin Sigyn cpt_nemo mearnsh dwchandler z0d qlkzy impaktor anachrom1 fluxit shymega euphoria- ski thomas mrSpec axion Urfin kini thortron loke` Lord_of_Life xristos aap Lord_Nightmare dim mikaelj djsjadkhf jurov tomaw mmos Mandus asedeno
2016-09-24T20:21:35Z names: gendl
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2016-09-24T20:33:05Z names: ccl-logbot sshirokov test1600 Walex emeritus constantinexvi ivan4th` megalography PuercoPop scymtym_ nocd tokik gensym thijso jbalint emma pacon adlai sigjuice lxpz_ _death gabot Nikotiini voidlily josteink grindhold p_l luis stepnem libreman vlatkoB hydraz wizzo brucem_ mastokley JRajamaa jlarocco` jself misv derrida isoraqathedh_ kjeldahl_ benny davsebam1e ``Erik_ Posterdati yeltzooo9 hjudt_ trinitr0n vertigo_ WojciechK defaultxr yeticry payphone_ Patzy_
2016-09-24T20:33:05Z names: Quadresce` nocaberi djinni`_ hebroon_ tilpner grublet Oladon ec\ whartung Xach ym ircbrowse nicdev` pok john-mca` angavrilov_ gargaml ASau` theBlackDragon gypsydave5 TeMPOraL sausages zacharias ineiros angular_mike_ zacts larme cell areinisch wyan trig-ger Davidbrcz tfb mbrock nydel makufiru Neet rvirding Oddity Intensity joga nightfly_ renard_ fluter AntiSpamMeta segmond nhandler eschulte mtd_ sjl unbalanced gingerale zeraceth MightyJoe Tordek Ando_ vibs29
2016-09-24T20:33:05Z names: schjetne_ aerique2 jsnell_ mjl H4ns specbot Kundry_Wag knobo woona eagleflo pkkm gko j_king j0ni GGMethos_ vlnx zwwwdr Mon_Ouie Justinus spacebat2 sukaeto |3b| Zotan_ vert2_ ritschmaster froggey e kus_ubuntui686 jackdaniel dxtr clop danieli peccu dilated_dinosaur johs heddwch Guest57142 kolko_ nefercheprure LahlStephan Kaisyu22 aeth abbe_ quasisane tokenrov1 fkac pchrist drdo jdz_ arpunk1 EvW wildlander easye marsjaninzmarsa attila_lendvai alexherbo2 pjb
2016-09-24T20:33:05Z names: copec SlashLife ristur Blkt fe[nl]ix mercurial lpaste tanuzzo tobel velvetcore rotty lieven joshe gniourf toogley jasom raydeejay moei ozzloy mnoonan swflint switchy freehck msb pillton cibs bitch Glitchy M-Illandan sake oGMo tuctuc shikhin Sigyn cpt_nemo mearnsh dwchandler z0d qlkzy impaktor anachrom1 fluxit shymega euphoria- ski thomas mrSpec axion Urfin kini loke` Lord_of_Life xristos aap Lord_Nightmare dim mikaelj djsjadkhf jurov tomaw mmos Mandus
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2016-09-24T21:38:25Z phoe: There is a PEEK-CHAR, there is a READ-CHAR-NO-HANG, but there is no PEEK-CHAR-NO-HANG. Therefore, http://paste.lisp.org/display/326999 - should I propose this for inclusion in ALEXANDRIA?
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2016-09-24T21:39:10Z Cthulhux: is there a way to remove trailing newline characters from a string?
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2016-09-24T21:39:49Z _death: clhs string-right-trim
2016-09-24T21:39:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stg_tr.htm
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2016-09-24T21:39:59Z phoe: Cthulhux: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20963313/how-do-i-trim-leading-and-trailing-whitespace-in-common-lisp
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2016-09-24T21:40:10Z phoe: That's a complete answer.
2016-09-24T21:40:16Z Cthulhux: are newlines considered whitespace?
2016-09-24T21:40:24Z phoe: Cthulhux: generally, yes.
2016-09-24T21:40:27Z Cthulhux: ah, i should scroll
2016-09-24T21:40:29Z Cthulhux: thanks
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2016-09-24T21:40:41Z phoe: But with STRING-TRIM, you define your own chars that you want to trim.
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2016-09-24T23:57:43Z jasom: how does one install ecl in windows?
2016-09-24T23:58:37Z Cthulhux: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/prebuilt/
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2016-09-25T00:01:17Z jasom: thanks
2016-09-25T00:01:45Z jasom: I was looking in release
2016-09-25T00:04:20Z jasom: ?: Cannot open shared object file
2016-09-25T00:04:38Z jasom: do I need mscvrt or something perhaps?
2016-09-25T00:05:02Z jasom: yeah msvcr120
2016-09-25T00:05:22Z Cthulhux: :-)
2016-09-25T00:05:39Z Cthulhux: "msvc" ...
2016-09-25T00:07:53Z jasom: I'm on a 64-bit windows so didn't have the 32-bit version
2016-09-25T00:10:22Z jasom: hmm sys:cmp fails with Error: "The operation completed successfully."
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2016-09-25T00:14:34Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/327008
2016-09-25T00:15:04Z Cthulhux: great error
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2016-09-25T00:23:02Z jasom: jackdaniel: if you can figure out what I'm doing wrong (Windows 10 Home x64) http://paste.lisp.org/display/327008 I'd appreciate it :)
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2016-09-25T04:27:05Z jackdaniel: jasom: on windows you usually can't use cmp module, because the c/c++ compiler isn't available at runtime
2016-09-25T04:27:28Z jackdaniel: so bytecodes compiler is installed by default on windows
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2016-09-25T04:31:20Z Bike: does ecl often give a ridiculous error message like that? seems like something to avoid
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2016-09-25T04:36:30Z jackdaniel: rarely :)
2016-09-25T04:37:22Z jackdaniel: but some messages are cryptic, its a problem, yes
2016-09-25T04:38:21Z Bike: i'm vaguely remembering that particular message is a windows thing
2016-09-25T04:38:49Z Bike: NativeErrorCode = 0. right. "This combination of non-zero HResult and zero NativeErrorCode indicates a failure in a COM component, which directly returns an HRESULT without using SetLastError()." seems like a pain.
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2016-09-25T05:14:10Z jasom: ah
2016-09-25T05:16:47Z jasom: thanks
2016-09-25T05:21:04Z jackdaniel: its in the "release notes" as one of the "known issues"
2016-09-25T05:21:47Z jackdaniel: given enough time, cleverness and effort, it would be nice to bundle libgcc optionally on windows I think (but didn't put much thought into it yet)
2016-09-25T05:24:35Z drmeister: Has anyone ever run the ClPython system?   Its website says that it's no longer under development.
2016-09-25T05:24:53Z jackdaniel: cl-python you mean?
2016-09-25T05:25:05Z drmeister: https://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/
2016-09-25T05:25:07Z drmeister: Sire
2016-09-25T05:25:09Z drmeister: Sure
2016-09-25T05:25:27Z jackdaniel: afair it worked well enough, but it didn't have ffi (so no "native" python modules could be loaded)
2016-09-25T05:25:40Z jackdaniel: give me a second, there was a second project in this spirit
2016-09-25T05:25:50Z Bike: burgled batteries?
2016-09-25T05:25:56Z jackdaniel: right
2016-09-25T05:26:04Z jackdaniel: that one
2016-09-25T05:26:28Z drmeister: I ask because I have a horse (the computational chemistry community) what I want to lead to water (common lisp) and it would help if there were some sugary flavored water (hosted Python) to get them to drink.
2016-09-25T05:27:06Z drmeister: If I could host Python within Cando - then they could program in Python and access most of Cando.
2016-09-25T05:27:31Z drmeister: I'm not committed to the idea (I hate it actually) but several people are asking for this.
2016-09-25T05:27:54Z Bike: just think, they could have asked for a matlab bridge instead.
2016-09-25T05:28:19Z jackdaniel: it works fine unless you python native interface
2016-09-25T05:28:38Z jackdaniel: (or at least - worked)
2016-09-25T05:28:46Z Bike: i guess that would just be some mex. maybe not totally horrible.
2016-09-25T05:29:51Z jackdaniel: s/you python/you need python/
2016-09-25T05:29:56Z drmeister: I don't care about FFI.   That's what Cando will provide.
2016-09-25T05:30:22Z jackdaniel: yes, but they may care about some python libraries
2016-09-25T05:30:32Z drmeister: I think if they can write Python code and load PDB files and build topology files they would be happy.
2016-09-25T05:30:36Z jackdaniel: which may be partially written in C
2016-09-25T05:31:12Z Bike: burgled batteries is supposed to bridge to cpython, i thought.
2016-09-25T05:31:26Z jackdaniel: yes, I'm talking about clpython atm
2016-09-25T05:31:32Z Bike: "Calling Lisp from Python: Not yet supported"
2016-09-25T05:31:38Z jackdaniel: (sorry if caused some confusion)
2016-09-25T05:32:09Z jackdaniel: brb
2016-09-25T05:32:33Z drmeister: I can probably add the calling lisp from python.
2016-09-25T05:32:45Z drmeister: I'm good at the whole "calling things from other things".
2016-09-25T05:33:21Z drmeister: You might say that it's my forte.
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2016-09-25T05:33:42Z drmeister: My bailiwick.
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2016-09-25T05:33:53Z drmeister: That thing that I do when I do do things.
2016-09-25T05:34:45Z drmeister: Bike - does Cleavir have dead code path elimination?
2016-09-25T05:34:51Z jackdaniel: drmeister: if you want tight integration, it would be a good thing to use cl-python, if you are more after python libraries - burgled-batteries will be better
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2016-09-25T05:34:58Z jasom: drmeister heard you liked calling things so he makes it so you can call things from things you call.
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2016-09-25T05:35:41Z drmeister: Bike: You may have told me - my mind is a crowded place the past couple of weeks.
2016-09-25T05:36:00Z Bike: drmeister: other than my bit i don't think it does yet
2016-09-25T05:36:03Z Bike: and i don't think i did
2016-09-25T05:36:28Z drmeister: I ask because I was reminded of inlined-generic-function by this:   https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function#news
2016-09-25T05:37:04Z drmeister: It looks neat.  I'd like it for Cando.
2016-09-25T05:37:15Z Bike: very gcc.
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2016-09-25T05:38:07Z drmeister: Show those Julia folks a thing or two.
2016-09-25T05:38:11Z drmeister: What's very gcc?
2016-09-25T05:38:26Z Bike: __builtin_unreachable
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2016-09-25T05:38:38Z drmeister: Ah - yes.
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2016-09-25T05:39:48Z drmeister: Anyway, I'm counting down the days 'till I can play compiler games again.
2016-09-25T05:40:00Z Bike: well, this implementation is basic as hell. could throw that in cleavir in five minutes.
2016-09-25T05:40:01Z drmeister: I have the proposal written - now I'll spend a few days editing it.
2016-09-25T05:40:09Z Bike: dunno if it's a good idea immediately tho.
2016-09-25T05:41:36Z drmeister: I'm off to bed.  It's been a long day.
2016-09-25T05:41:50Z Bike: i wish it was easier to make regular errors work like that, but sometimes you don't want a compile warning if something definitely errs.
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2016-09-25T09:17:38Z H4ns:  hello
2016-09-25T09:17:42Z H4ns: oops
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2016-09-25T09:28:45Z phoe: How can I tell SLIME to evaluate an expression when launching inferior-lisp?
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2016-09-25T09:29:27Z jackdaniel: put the expression in your implementation rc file
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2016-09-25T09:30:23Z phoe: I want the expression evaluated only when Lisp is launched by SLIME.
2016-09-25T09:30:27Z phoe: Not at every launch.
2016-09-25T09:30:42Z phoe: RC file will give it to me at every run, SLIME or not.
2016-09-25T09:32:36Z phoe: It looks like I should be editing slime.el's SLIME-INIT-COMMAND in elisp, but I'm surprised there are no hooks there that allow insertion of arbitrary commands for evaluation.
2016-09-25T09:33:30Z phoe: Looks like I'll need to submit a patch.
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2016-09-25T10:00:53Z phoe: https://github.com/slime/slime/pull/346
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2016-09-25T10:25:39Z dmitigr: hello
2016-09-25T10:30:51Z pipping: phoe: can't you check for slime in your RC somehow?
2016-09-25T10:33:11Z pipping: phoe: does http://stackoverflow.com/a/11907369/179927 help you?
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2016-09-25T10:41:20Z phoe: pipping: it might be able to help me. I'll need to define a separate file just for the sake of loading it with SLIME-COMPILE-AND-LOAD-FILE.
2016-09-25T10:42:15Z phoe: While it might work, having a separate RC file that will contain "(setf *print-right-margin* 110)" isn't aesthetic to me.
2016-09-25T10:42:24Z pipping: slime-load-file doesn't need the file to be in your buffer. apparently you want that instead
2016-09-25T10:43:34Z phoe: Then I'll need to create a separate buffer every time I run SLIME. And possibly close it afterwards.
2016-09-25T10:43:52Z phoe: Like, create a buffer, populate it with that SETF, SLIME-LOAD-FILE, close it.
2016-09-25T10:44:03Z phoe: This in turn sounds pretty hacky.
2016-09-25T10:44:31Z pipping: well, no, slime-compile-and-load-file would need that buffer
2016-09-25T10:44:39Z pipping: slime-load-file doesn't, does it?
2016-09-25T10:44:55Z pipping: (is now too late to say that I haven't used slime in >5 years?)
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2016-09-25T11:12:49Z fkac: pipping: Are you an XEmacs user?
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2016-09-25T12:13:45Z pipping: no, I use gnu emacs.
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2016-09-25T12:59:17Z fkac: pipping: I see. Why no slime then?
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2016-09-25T14:49:01Z pipping: fkac: My emacs sessions don't last as long as would be typical, I think. Maybe because I used vim for too long. I do all my work by ssh'ing into linux boxes from my mac (occasionally also into *bsd), cd'ing a lot, never opening shells from within emacs. Sometimes with multiple emacs sessions running in parallel. Constantly switching between lisps, sometimes ten at a time. Slime doesn't seem ideally suited for
2016-09-25T14:49:03Z pipping: that.
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2016-09-25T15:23:20Z fkac: pipping: I see. I just run Emacs as a server and use viper-mode on top
2016-09-25T15:23:30Z fkac: One can start swank without Emacs too
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2016-09-25T17:27:15Z pipping: Quadrescence: btw, if you went with sb-unicode:whitespace-p: Just saw this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1531071
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2016-09-25T18:06:58Z JohnMcClain: I have an excel sheet which will act as a db (not my choice). I could import as tab-delimited into objects and then cycle through them to AutoCAD?
2016-09-25T18:10:49Z pjb: Yes.
2016-09-25T18:11:40Z H4ns: JohnMcClain: this channel is about common lisp, not autolisp.
2016-09-25T18:11:54Z JohnMcClain: ok, I'll keep the conversation to the Excel->Lisp part, then.
2016-09-25T18:12:19Z H4ns: JohnMcClain: in common lisp, there are ways to read excel files (in xls format).
2016-09-25T18:12:28Z JohnMcClain: Just trying to draw a general pathway to developing this little thing.
2016-09-25T18:12:47Z JohnMcClain: Common lisp is an option.
2016-09-25T18:13:19Z H4ns: JohnMcClain: http://logand.com/sw/cl-olefs.html
2016-09-25T18:13:20Z pjb: JohnMcClain: that may be the opportunity to send an email to Autodesk, from a paying customer, asking about using CL instead of AutoLisp in AutoCAD.
2016-09-25T18:13:48Z raydeejay: just like that
2016-09-25T18:13:51Z raydeejay: sure xD
2016-09-25T18:13:57Z JohnMcClain: AutoDesk hates customers.
2016-09-25T18:14:02Z H4ns: JohnMcClain: or you could use abcl and apache poi, which is something that i did in the past and that worked relatively well.  back then, though, there was no deployment story for abcl
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2016-09-25T18:14:29Z H4ns: JohnMcClain: autocad and autolisp are off-topic in this channel.
2016-09-25T18:14:50Z JohnMcClain: H4ns: Yes. Like I said, I want to keep the discussion on LISP only.
2016-09-25T18:15:39Z H4ns: JohnMcClain: you need to understand that autolisp and common lisp have little in common (sic).
2016-09-25T18:16:03Z raydeejay: actually, what he "needs" is to explain what "cycle through them" means
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2016-09-25T18:16:24Z JohnMcClain: raydeejay: similar to foreach.
2016-09-25T18:16:42Z raydeejay: so you have stuff in an excel file, and what to output dxf or whatever format it is?
2016-09-25T18:17:01Z H4ns: JohnMcClain: autolisp does not have the same control structures as common lisp.  you're simply in the wrong channel to discuss your problem.
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2016-09-25T18:20:11Z Rak__: Someone attacked me and said that Lisp is for theory not practice.
2016-09-25T18:20:25Z raydeejay: so you ignore them and carry on
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2016-09-25T18:21:12Z Rak__: raydeejay, he is wrong, right?
2016-09-25T18:21:32Z raydeejay: do you think he's right?
2016-09-25T18:21:49Z hellcode: that's what people say when they don't know/don't use lisp themselves
2016-09-25T18:21:50Z Rak__: raydeejay, no
2016-09-25T18:21:51Z raydeejay: in general, such statements are made from lack of knowledge
2016-09-25T18:22:09Z hellcode: however, why should it bother you at all what they think?
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2016-09-25T18:23:11Z hellcode: if you listen to everybody who disagrees with your tools you'll be jumping from emacs to vim and back, and through different OSes all the time
2016-09-25T18:23:28Z hellcode: and political alignments and religions
2016-09-25T18:23:40Z pjb: Rak__: that's the theory, but in practice, lisp works very well.  There's even a book: Practical Common Lisp http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2016-09-25T18:24:31Z raydeejay: I'm sure that someone has written a "Practical PHP" book, so... :D
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2016-09-25T18:25:14Z hellcode: raydeejay: isn't PHP for torturing people?
2016-09-25T18:25:29Z hellcode: that's a practical use, not theoretical
2016-09-25T18:25:51Z pjb: practical PHP --> About 5,070,000 results (0.47 seconds)
2016-09-25T18:26:20Z raydeejay: evil PHP About 21,500,000 results (0.53 seconds)
2016-09-25T18:26:27Z raydeejay: 'nuff said
2016-09-25T18:26:55Z raydeejay: but, back to the lisp topic, there is much software written in various lisps to contradict such ridiculous standpoints
2016-09-25T18:29:56Z sjl: I just now realized alexandria's rcurry can be used to partially apply keyword args
2016-09-25T18:30:12Z sjl: it seems obvious in hindsight but didn't click til now
2016-09-25T18:30:37Z sjl: (foo ... :test (rcurry #'set-equal :test #'equal))
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2016-09-25T18:31:18Z Rak__: Why I shouldn't write as "LISP" when originally it was like that?
2016-09-25T18:31:47Z H4ns: Rak__: because this channel is about common lisp, which is written "Common Lisp".
2016-09-25T18:32:29Z pjb: Rak__: there has been some evolution from 1964 to 1994.
2016-09-25T18:32:45Z pjb: Rak__: and even some more from 1959 to 2016.
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2016-09-25T18:34:17Z Rak__: okay, pjb
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2016-09-25T18:50:54Z pipping: sjl: care to elaborate? that single line doesn't make it clear to me what you're trying to do
2016-09-25T18:51:26Z sjl: pipping: imagine you have a function that takes a :test keyword argument, like find-if
2016-09-25T18:51:34Z sjl: er
2016-09-25T18:51:39Z sjl: just vanilla find
2016-09-25T18:52:14Z sjl: that :test argument lets you give a different equality predicate, e.g. something like equal or set-equal
2016-09-25T18:52:47Z sjl: so you can say (find '(1 2 3) big-list-of-lists :test #'set-equal)
2016-09-25T18:53:31Z sjl: but if your sets contain things that need a different comparison predicate, you need to tell set-equal about it
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2016-09-25T18:53:37Z sjl: which is wordy and annoying with lambda
2016-09-25T18:53:56Z sjl: (find '(1 2 3) big-list :test (lambda (a b) (set-equal a b :test #'equal)))
2016-09-25T18:54:14Z sjl: you can avoid the lambda and thinking up param names by just using rcurry
2016-09-25T18:54:33Z sjl: (find '(1 2 3) big-list :test (rcurry #'set-equal :test #'equal))
2016-09-25T18:55:09Z sjl: for some reason I had just never though of using rcurry to fill in keyword arguments before
2016-09-25T18:55:26Z _death: it is obvious if you remember rcurry fn &rest right-args -> (lambda (&rest left-args) (apply fn (append left-args right-args)))
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2016-09-25T18:55:58Z pipping: sjl: right. that makes sense. thanks for elaborating
2016-09-25T18:57:10Z raydeejay: you just made me think about Smalltalk blocks
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2016-09-25T18:57:43Z _death: you can also do "strange" things like (apply (alexandria:rcurry #'write 16) (list 42 :base))
2016-09-25T18:58:24Z Fendral: I'm having some trouble trying to make sure each member of a list is a number that i'm going over in a loop
2016-09-25T18:58:30Z Fendral: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/935a64d582c1b779a6bb65cec1684729
2016-09-25T18:58:50Z Fendral: this is my code for  the dot product, but i can't figure out a way to check if each member of a list is also a number
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2016-09-25T18:59:12Z pipping: this isn't fortran. you're allowed to use lower-case letters.
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2016-09-25T19:00:20Z Fendral: thats just how my professor prefers the code
2016-09-25T19:00:36Z pipping: oh boy
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2016-09-25T19:01:01Z pipping: are you expecting integers or floats?
2016-09-25T19:01:30Z pipping: and you want this to work on lists, not vectors?
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2016-09-25T19:02:06Z Fendral: yeah it needs to work on lists, but didn't specify if it needs to be integers or floats
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2016-09-25T19:02:31Z Fendral: I was trying to do something with (numberp x) but i was getting some errors about macro expansions or something
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2016-09-25T19:03:02Z Fendral: and i think that has to do with me not understanding the loop form properly
2016-09-25T19:03:11Z sjl: Fendral: there are a bunch of different ways you could do it, depending on whether you care about speed, and what exactly you want to do if you do get something that's not a number
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2016-09-25T19:03:47Z sjl: e.g. you could turn that if statement into a cond, and add some extra checks like (not (every #'numberp liste1))
2016-09-25T19:04:15Z sjl: or you could add the checks into the loop with something like: do (check-type x numberp)
2016-09-25T19:04:18Z Fendral: Well if its not a number i want to exit out of the loop and just print to the screen that an element in the specific list is not a number
2016-09-25T19:04:22Z pipping: numberp is generally the right function
2016-09-25T19:05:03Z pipping: just like you have a sum clause, you can have a do clause in there where you do that kind of thing
2016-09-25T19:07:05Z sjl: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html is worth a read
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2016-09-25T19:08:03Z sjl: man after using iterate a lot lately I think it's ruined me for reading non-simple loop statements
2016-09-25T19:08:32Z Fendral: yeah i found that link, i was also reading through this section on loops https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node246.html
2016-09-25T19:08:41Z pipping: Fendral: I've left a comment to give you an idea
2016-09-25T19:09:18Z sjl: CLtL is a really nice book, but PCL is a bit "gentler" sometimes
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2016-09-25T19:11:14Z Fendral: alright thank you pipping, i'm looking up how error works, i'm guessing it exits out of the loop if its evaluated?
2016-09-25T19:11:35Z pjb: Fendral: actually, no.
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2016-09-25T19:11:49Z pipping: Fendral: you could also manually step through those lists btw, each time replacing listn with (cdr listn) (or (rest listn) if you prefer). If you checked that if one is nil, so's the other, you could do away with the (= (length l1) (length l2)) check
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2016-09-25T19:12:04Z pjb: ERROR just calls SIGNAL and INVOKE-DEBUGGER.
2016-09-25T19:12:24Z pipping: Fendral: try (dot-product '(1 2 3) '(2 4 6)) and then (dot-product '(1 2 3) '(2 4 #\a)) and see what happens :)
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2016-09-25T19:14:39Z pjb: Basically: (defun error (datum &rest args) (let ((condi (if (stringp datum) (make-condition 'simple-error :format-control datum :format-arguments args) (apply (function make-condition) datum args)))) (signal condi) (invoke-debugger condi)))
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2016-09-25T19:15:17Z sjl: Fendral: look up the WHEN clause and how RETURN works in loops (that Practical Common Lisp chapter describes both)
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2016-09-25T19:17:55Z |3b|: pipping: don't need to step manually, (loop for (x . more-x) on list1 for (y . more-y) on list1 unless (eq (not more-x) (not more-y)) do (error ...))
2016-09-25T19:18:26Z pipping: |3b|: yes, but do you really want to introduce him/her to destructuring now?
2016-09-25T19:20:46Z |3b| probably would :)
2016-09-25T19:21:06Z |3b|: (or would just leave it with the separate test if not)
2016-09-25T19:22:17Z pipping: "The derivative of a function is easy to understand, really. Just think of it as an affine-linear Operator from one Banach space to another..." -- |3b|
2016-09-25T19:22:49Z pipping: forgot "bounded" in there, anyway
2016-09-25T19:23:35Z |3b|: nah, i'd be fine with just saying "ignore the details for now, but this is a good way to see if there is more of the list in LOOP"
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2016-09-25T19:24:50Z pipping: Right. But why do you even want to teach LOOP?
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2016-09-25T19:25:14Z |3b| likes LOOP, and the original code already uses it
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2016-09-25T19:25:28Z pipping: Isn't (reduce #'+ (mapcar #'* list1 list2 :initial-value 0)) lispier than loop here or has haskell ruined me?
2016-09-25T19:26:04Z pjb: (reduce #'+ (map 'vector #'* seq1 seq2) :initial-value 0) would be better actually.
2016-09-25T19:26:04Z pipping: important to get your parens right, sorry: (reduce #'+ (mapcar #'* list1 list2) :initial-value 0)
2016-09-25T19:26:37Z |3b| wouldn't have any objection to that, aside from not fitting the (implied) spec of the original function
2016-09-25T19:27:06Z |3b|: though if it weren't in lists, i might want to do performance testing
2016-09-25T19:27:09Z pipping: |3b|: I'm not sure we have a spec
2016-09-25T19:27:24Z |3b|: hence "(implied) spec"
2016-09-25T19:28:04Z |3b|: original code checking for same length implies it should check for them being same length and do something other than returning the dot-product of the prefix :)
2016-09-25T19:28:29Z sjl googles for "ascii art bikeshed"
2016-09-25T19:28:53Z |3b|: yeah, i should just go back to what i'm supposed to be doing :)
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2016-09-25T19:29:11Z |3b| apologizes for the noise
2016-09-25T19:29:12Z ggole_: pipping: Haskell has clearly ruined you, the initial-value is already supplied by +
2016-09-25T19:29:37Z pipping: 🏠 🚲 ?
2016-09-25T19:29:54Z raydeejay: where's the ascii?
2016-09-25T19:30:09Z jackdaniel: (or) ; -> NIL
2016-09-25T19:30:27Z |3b|: (reduce '+ ()) -> 0
2016-09-25T19:30:31Z pipping: ggole_: merde. good point
2016-09-25T19:31:04Z pjb: did they include "ascii-art" codepoints in unicode?
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2016-09-25T19:31:18Z raydeejay: sure
2016-09-25T19:31:24Z raydeejay: for anything below 128
2016-09-25T19:31:25Z ggole_: The box drawing stuff?
2016-09-25T19:31:27Z raydeejay: :D
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2016-09-25T19:32:12Z raydeejay: ggole_: BOX DRAWINGS xxx...
2016-09-25T19:33:16Z raydeejay: ╚═╕
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2016-09-25T19:34:58Z ggole_: They even added some curvy ones.
2016-09-25T19:35:17Z pjb: those are old, from MS-DOS.
2016-09-25T19:36:27Z ggole_: ╭╮╰╯ those ones?
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2016-09-25T19:52:14Z knobo: Is (let ((sym (make-symbol "foo"))) (import sym)) the same as (intern "foo")? What would be the difference?
2016-09-25T19:53:29Z knobo: except from the return value.
2016-09-25T19:54:54Z dim: intern doesn't create a new symbol is one with the given name exists
2016-09-25T19:55:29Z dim: (eq (make-symbol "foo") (make-symbol "foo")) -> NIL
2016-09-25T19:56:00Z knobo: right.
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2016-09-25T20:11:54Z Fendral: Thank you guys, I managed to get it to work.
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2016-09-25T20:53:01Z fandral: i'm having a problem running lisp code given to me. https://gist.github.com/anonymous/d814338e7170321258526cd05533f066
2016-09-25T20:53:39Z fandral: i loaded both the searchegine.lisp file and the water-jug.lisp file by doing (load "location of each file")
2016-09-25T20:54:16Z fandral: but when i try to run (breadth-first-search *water-jug*) it gives me the error that the unbound variable "water-jug"
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2016-09-25T21:00:40Z pipping: fandral: two files of 427 and 111 lines of lisp code, respectively, are not exactly a reduced test case. you're unlikely to get any helpful replies this way.
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2016-09-25T21:03:24Z fandral: yeah i get that, but i'm essentially just suppose to load my files and just be able to run the breadthfirst search function on water-jug to get an answer
2016-09-25T21:03:42Z fandral: but i'm not sure why its not working, maybe it beause i'm running emacs on a windows
2016-09-25T21:04:42Z Bike: did you actually load water-jug.lisp?
2016-09-25T21:06:43Z pipping: fandral: http://dpaste.com/05MVHAP fixes your problem.
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2016-09-25T21:15:37Z fandral: hmm it still gives me an unbound variable
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2016-09-25T21:20:41Z Bike: how are you loading the file?
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2016-09-25T21:24:42Z Bike: because pipping's fix means the file was broken to begin with, so it seems like you're not actually loading it.
2016-09-25T21:25:09Z fandral: CL-USER> (load "E:/CSCI 350/Assignments/Assignment 4/water-jug.lisp")
2016-09-25T21:25:17Z fandral: CL-USER> (load "E:/CSCI 350/Assignments/Assignment 4/searchengine.lisp")
2016-09-25T21:25:17Z fandral: and that
2016-09-25T21:26:56Z Bike: all in the same package? does *water-jug* work by itself?
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2016-09-25T21:27:39Z fandral: *water-jug* is just a problem, searchengine takes problems and puts out a solution
2016-09-25T21:27:58Z Bike: yes, and your error says that your *water-jug* problem does not exist.
2016-09-25T21:28:21Z Bike: that error is signaled before breadth-first-search is even called.
2016-09-25T21:30:02Z pipping admires Bike's patience
2016-09-25T21:30:56Z pipping: I find the fact that allegro is putting out a patch in 2016 with the description 'directory now merges with *default-pathname-defaults*, as it should' (see http://franz.com/support/patches/log/current/index.lhtml)... remarkable
2016-09-25T21:31:07Z Bike: loading water-jug.lisp should also show some output, due to those describes at the end
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2016-09-25T21:34:10Z fandral: the only thing i see after i load water-jug.lisp is a T
2016-09-25T21:34:16Z fandral: no other output
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2016-09-25T21:35:58Z Bike: i assumed. so the most obvious explanation to me is that you aren't loading this file. maybe that path has an accidentally blanked file in it, something like that. it is a very basic problem, your platform probably doesn't matter so much.
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2016-09-25T21:38:25Z fandral: that makes sense. but i dont think my path is incorrect
2016-09-25T21:38:45Z fandral: i just put it in my homedirectory and did (load "~/water-jug.lisp") and all i get is a T
2016-09-25T21:39:30Z Quadrescence: that means it was loaded
2016-09-25T21:39:49Z Bike: yes, Quadrescence, but there are side effectful calls in the file
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2016-09-25T21:40:48Z fandral: i sent the files to my friends and they were able to just load each file and then run the search engine
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2016-09-25T21:49:38Z djsjadkhf: James Paul Warburg (August 18, 1896 – June 3, 1969) was a German-born American banker. He was well known for being the financial adviser to Franklin D. Roosevelt. His father was banker Paul Warburg, member of the Warburg family and "father" of the Federal Reserve system.
2016-09-25T21:49:41Z djsjadkhf: [..]
2016-09-25T21:49:43Z djsjadkhf: He gained some notice in a February 17, 1950, appearance before the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations in which he said, "We shall have world government, whether or not we like it. The question is only whether world government will be achieved by consent or by conquest."[1]
2016-09-25T21:49:45Z djsjadkhf: Paul Moritz Warburg (August 10, 1868 – January 24, 1932) was a Jewish German-born American banker, and an early advocate of the U.S. Federal Reserve System.
2016-09-25T21:55:28Z fandral: so i tried the following. Calling a function thats not defined, it gave me an error, then i loaded a file that has the function and called it again and it gave me the correct output
2016-09-25T21:55:38Z fandral: so i dont know why its not loading the water-jug file properly
2016-09-25T21:56:41Z Anselmo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-25T21:57:55Z Bike: is t here a fasl file in the same directory? i don't know your implementation, just something with the same name but different extension.
2016-09-25T21:58:47Z fandral: i'm not sure what a fasl file is
2016-09-25T21:59:24Z Bike: a compiled lisp file. just, do you have another file in the directory named 'water-jug' but with a different extension.
2016-09-25T21:59:56Z fandral: my current directory has water-jug.lisp and water-jug.lisp~
2016-09-25T22:00:09Z Bike: hum, no fasl then.
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2016-09-25T22:03:17Z fandral: i can generate fasl if i compile it
2016-09-25T22:03:22Z fandral: which i did before
2016-09-25T22:03:27Z fandral: but that didnt really change anything
2016-09-25T22:05:32Z raydeejay: add a (print "OK") to the end of the file, then load it
2016-09-25T22:07:45Z fandral: only see T
2016-09-25T22:08:07Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-25T22:08:13Z Bike: how ab out the beginning?
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2016-09-25T22:09:21Z fandral: i put it at the begining of water jug and i see an OK
2016-09-25T22:09:33Z fandral: "OK"
2016-09-25T22:09:35Z fandral: T
2016-09-25T22:09:37Z fandral: thats what i see
2016-09-25T22:10:08Z Bike: oh, excellent. try peppering a few throughout to try to find the last form evaluated, then.
2016-09-25T22:10:16Z fandral: okay
2016-09-25T22:10:26Z raydeejay: which file are you loading first?
2016-09-25T22:11:52Z fandral: I'm trying this on water-jug
2016-09-25T22:12:16Z fandral: so basically it works before the first comment area where it says functiosn and definitions for water jug
2016-09-25T22:12:22Z fandral: after that it does not work
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2016-09-25T22:13:18Z Bike: i tried loading it. i see an unmatched close parenthesis on equal-states.
2016-09-25T22:13:18Z raydeejay: searchengine has to be loaded first, then water-jug
2016-09-25T22:13:42Z Bike: if i fix that it works.
2016-09-25T22:13:48Z fandral: http://dpaste.com/05MVHAP
2016-09-25T22:13:50Z fandral: someone posted that
2016-09-25T22:13:51Z fandral: i tried fixing it
2016-09-25T22:13:54Z fandral: and it still doesnt load for me
2016-09-25T22:13:56Z Bike: ah. right.
2016-09-25T22:14:04Z Bike: did you actually save the fix?
2016-09-25T22:14:07Z fandral: yes
2016-09-25T22:14:37Z raydeejay downloads the files himself
2016-09-25T22:14:38Z fandral: i've closed my emacs and opened it up a few times to make sure it was saved properly
2016-09-25T22:15:00Z fandral: my friends have taken my code and ran it on their macbooks and it works for them when they try to do ti
2016-09-25T22:15:15Z Bike: Have you angered any witches lately?
2016-09-25T22:15:22Z fandral: i hope not
2016-09-25T22:15:29Z Bike: What's the md5sum of the file you're trying to load? Well, it's windows, I guess you can't check as easily
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2016-09-25T22:16:57Z fandral: how do i check that?
2016-09-25T22:17:32Z Bike: on nix it's just 'md5sum water-jug.lisp'
2016-09-25T22:18:22Z Bike: but i mean. i don't know. you say it works for everyone but you. that tells me that there's something strange with your system. but i can't imagine what. this is pretty basic code, your operating system and lisp implementation shouldn't really be factors.
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2016-09-25T22:18:49Z fandral: yeah i have no idea why its not working
2016-09-25T22:18:51Z raydeejay: I can't load that... xD
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2016-09-25T22:19:02Z fandral: did you make the changes in http://dpaste.com/05MVHAP
2016-09-25T22:19:18Z Bike: yes.
2016-09-25T22:19:36Z raydeejay: nope...
2016-09-25T22:19:42Z raydeejay: why is that commented instead of deleted... xD
2016-09-25T22:19:43Z Bike: you have to anyway, it's not a valid call to 'break'.
2016-09-25T22:20:46Z fandral: so when i do a setf in my listener i get the following
2016-09-25T22:20:48Z fandral: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/1d120b2a0badd34fdee7d686caaa4597
2016-09-25T22:20:58Z Bike: yeah. that's normal?
2016-09-25T22:21:03Z Bike: i mean, that is normal.
2016-09-25T22:21:14Z Bike: the file does a defparameter. it shouldn't cause any warnings like that.
2016-09-25T22:21:16Z raydeejay: yep, loads fine here
2016-09-25T22:21:18Z fandral: so i tried calling ba before doing anything, it says unbound variable, then i do (setf BA 100) and it gives me all those warnings
2016-09-25T22:21:33Z fandral: i think on my friend's pc it doesnt give any warnings
2016-09-25T22:21:36Z Bike: that's not 'calling', but yes, i can see.
2016-09-25T22:21:51Z Bike: that shouldn't be an issue here. your code doesn't set anything before defining it.
2016-09-25T22:22:00Z fandral: yeah i'm at a loss
2016-09-25T22:22:00Z raydeejay: can I blame Windows? :D
2016-09-25T22:22:12Z Bike: without reason? sure, but it would be stupid
2016-09-25T22:22:26Z Bike: fandral: what implementation is this?
2016-09-25T22:22:34Z Bike: well, it looks like sbcl.
2016-09-25T22:22:38Z fandral: yeah it is
2016-09-25T22:24:02Z fandral: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/79326bf0ccfd3574170b700722b037c9
2016-09-25T22:24:06Z fandral: this is essentially how i installed it on my computer
2016-09-25T22:24:15Z fandral: this is what my professor gave me
2016-09-25T22:24:28Z raydeejay scratches his head
2016-09-25T22:24:56Z Bike: doesn't seem insane.
2016-09-25T22:24:58Z raydeejay: why would load result in T, and yet the symbol be unbound...?
2016-09-25T22:25:02Z Bike: i assume your friends followed similar instructions.
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2016-09-25T22:26:00Z fandral: i think my friends are on mac so they used the file to install on a mac which has different commands
2016-09-25T22:26:17Z raydeejay: um
2016-09-25T22:26:31Z Bike: shouldn't really matter much. you do, evidently, have sbcl installed. that should be all that's needed for this to work.
2016-09-25T22:26:32Z raydeejay wonders if sbcl is reading a single long line
2016-09-25T22:26:43Z raydeejay: which would explain why load results in T
2016-09-25T22:26:43Z Bike: What?
2016-09-25T22:26:50Z raydeejay: the file starts with a comment
2016-09-25T22:27:08Z fandral: should i manually retype the file to make sure it doesnt think its a single line?
2016-09-25T22:27:10Z Bike: followed by a newline, yes.
2016-09-25T22:27:19Z raydeejay: what kind of newline?
2016-09-25T22:27:29Z Bike: i downloaded the rawfile and it worked fine.
2016-09-25T22:27:37Z Bike: but yeah, try typing it yourself, i got no idea what's up.
2016-09-25T22:27:37Z raydeejay: from gist
2016-09-25T22:27:59Z fandral: alright ill start typing it out again
2016-09-25T22:28:18Z Bike: so you're saying because it doesn't use windows \r\n it might be read as one line. well, i have no idea.
2016-09-25T22:28:19Z raydeejay: I don't know much about macs, but I know that more than once I've opened a unix text file in program X in windows and it happily ignored the newlines because conventions
2016-09-25T22:28:22Z Bike: possible, maybe.
2016-09-25T22:28:29Z raydeejay: it fits the symptoms
2016-09-25T22:28:36Z fandral: that kinda makes sense
2016-09-25T22:28:40Z fandral: i've had the same thing happen before
2016-09-25T22:29:06Z Bike: well, except you said it did evaluate a few print calls correctly.
2016-09-25T22:29:19Z fandral: it only evaulated before the comment begins
2016-09-25T22:29:22Z fandral: anything after it wouldnt
2016-09-25T22:29:27Z Bike: the second comment.
2016-09-25T22:29:36Z raydeejay: the first one xD
2016-09-25T22:30:00Z Bike: you said that print calls before the "search support comments" lines worked.
2016-09-25T22:30:04Z raydeejay: nope
2016-09-25T22:30:37Z Bike: whatever. just retype it.
2016-09-25T22:30:59Z raydeejay: <fandral> so basically it works before the first comment area where it says functiosn and definitions for water jug
2016-09-25T22:30:59Z raydeejay:  
2016-09-25T22:31:06Z raydeejay: that's what made me think about the newlines
2016-09-25T22:31:15Z Bike: oh.
2016-09-25T22:31:20Z Bike: guess i misread then.
2016-09-25T22:32:48Z raydeejay: fandral: thereś no need to retype the files
2016-09-25T22:32:58Z raydeejay: copy them from the raw in github, or just download the raws
2016-09-25T22:33:32Z Bike: i tink the raws would still have the nix convention?
2016-09-25T22:33:59Z raydeejay: hm... perhaps
2016-09-25T22:34:07Z raydeejay: depending on how he got them there
2016-09-25T22:34:09Z fandral: well ill try copying and if that doesnt work ill retype it
2016-09-25T22:34:12Z xantoz: there's a lovely command known as 'dos2unix', just saying
2016-09-25T22:34:17Z raydeejay: I copied them, that will work
2016-09-25T22:34:19Z xantoz: and 'unix2dos'
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2016-09-25T22:34:23Z raydeejay: xantoz: he's on windows
2016-09-25T22:34:29Z xantoz: ah
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2016-09-25T22:34:56Z raydeejay: on linux it probably wouldn't be an issue
2016-09-25T22:35:00Z xantoz: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17579553/windows-command-to-convert-unix-line-endings
2016-09-25T22:35:04Z Bike: stack overflow suggests... well, that.
2016-09-25T22:35:13Z raydeejay: of course, emacs can do that too
2016-09-25T22:35:31Z xantoz: it apears dos2unix has a windows port
2016-09-25T22:35:38Z xantoz: http://waterlan.home.xs4all.nl/dos2unix.html
2016-09-25T22:36:25Z xantoz: http://waterlan.home.xs4all.nl/dos2unix/dos2unix-7.3.4-win64-nls.zip
2016-09-25T22:36:29Z raydeejay wonders what the emacs thing was
2016-09-25T22:36:58Z xantoz: emacs supports all three major newline formats and will convert for you if you ask for it
2016-09-25T22:38:26Z xantoz: also it will magically convert those lines that don't follow convention to whatever convention it detected, which is wonderful (not) when you're working in git repositories where people have mixed win newlines with unix ones (which is horrible...). I've had it detect mixed-newline files as CRLF
2016-09-25T22:38:49Z raydeejay: C-x RET f
2016-09-25T22:39:00Z raydeejay: then 'dos'
2016-09-25T22:40:05Z xantoz: but it's strange that it seems to be causing a problem for lisp. outside of strings, I don't think having everything on a single line should really matter...
2016-09-25T22:40:18Z Bike: it should if the line is a comment, which is the idea here.
2016-09-25T22:40:32Z fandral: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8b51c989325b18db3e4fe840cfa53fe1
2016-09-25T22:40:50Z raydeejay: it's fine
2016-09-25T22:40:51Z Bike: oh. that was it. great.
2016-09-25T22:40:51Z fandral: thats what i get after copying the raw files into new files and loading them
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2016-09-25T22:41:28Z raydeejay: bloody mac files
2016-09-25T22:41:30Z raydeejay: \o/
2016-09-25T22:41:36Z raydeejay: ok
2016-09-25T22:41:38Z fandral: but it still doesnt' work when i call (breadth-first-search *water-jug*)
2016-09-25T22:41:40Z xantoz: mac is LFCR iirc
2016-09-25T22:41:41Z raydeejay: NOW can I blame Windows?
2016-09-25T22:41:42Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-25T22:41:43Z Bike: you should still be seeing the describe output, but hey whatever, it actually loaded.
2016-09-25T22:41:50Z Bike: fandral: same error?
2016-09-25T22:41:56Z fandral: yes
2016-09-25T22:41:58Z xantoz: Bike: ah, didn't think of that
2016-09-25T22:43:06Z Bike: fandral: i'd just redo the whole thing to make sure all the newlines are correct, and remember to include your fix with break.
2016-09-25T22:43:16Z Bike: and then maybe tell your professor so that people don't run into this in the future.
2016-09-25T22:43:23Z fandral: okay so just manually rewrite all of it?
2016-09-25T22:43:44Z Bike: i guess. it sorta seems like it's still happening, just less so.
2016-09-25T22:44:10Z fandral: alright i need a break first, i need to eat something
2016-09-25T22:44:28Z raydeejay: fandral: the lines after FOR DEMONSTRATION ONLY are not being evaluated
2016-09-25T22:46:59Z fandral: what does that mean?
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2016-09-25T22:47:28Z raydeejay: that something is wrong before (dump-5 (start-state *water-jug*))
2016-09-25T22:48:20Z raydeejay: you should see this: #<JUG-STATE {1006B6ECA3}> [standard-object] ... and more output before the final T from load
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2016-09-25T22:49:40Z fandral: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/570691ab1170892e4571989836834bfe
2016-09-25T22:50:26Z fandral: this is what i see when i restart emacs and load it, i added and (print "ok1") before the For Demonstration ONLY and a (print "ok2") after
2016-09-25T22:50:32Z fandral: which both seem to be read
2016-09-25T22:51:06Z raydeejay: you are loading searchengine first, right?
2016-09-25T22:51:25Z fandral: uh nope let me redo this
2016-09-25T22:53:42Z raydeejay: you don't need to close the whole emacs... xD
2016-09-25T22:54:02Z fandral: okay so i load searchengine.lisp and it gives me a bunch of warnings as before
2016-09-25T22:54:37Z raydeejay: yes
2016-09-25T22:54:50Z fandral: then i load the new waterjug file and it prompts me to the following
2016-09-25T22:54:51Z fandral: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/9a5e0aa4137e001317d6b071659ec03a
2016-09-25T22:55:09Z raydeejay: fix the break in the line above
2016-09-25T22:55:14Z raydeejay: remove "(break "
2016-09-25T22:55:41Z raydeejay: and then on line 20 there's an extra closing paren... the same fixes you did before
2016-09-25T22:55:58Z raydeejay: 23
2016-09-25T22:56:05Z raydeejay: equal-states
2016-09-25T22:56:12Z fandral: oh right
2016-09-25T22:56:20Z raydeejay: 22 xD
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2016-09-25T22:56:28Z raydeejay is going for bingo
2016-09-25T22:56:40Z fandral: oh i think i see the description stuff
2016-09-25T22:57:22Z fandral: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/6c1b4f6e24fb9d3f3544c99c3b2928ba
2016-09-25T22:57:27Z fandral: thats i think the output i should be seeing
2016-09-25T22:57:33Z raydeejay: yes
2016-09-25T22:57:47Z fandral: okay now to try running the breadthfirst search
2016-09-25T22:58:13Z fandral: it worked
2016-09-25T22:58:15Z fandral: omg
2016-09-25T22:58:18Z fandral: thank you guys soo much
2016-09-25T22:58:23Z raydeejay: o/
2016-09-25T22:58:43Z raydeejay chuckles for a while at the issue
2016-09-25T22:59:05Z fandral: i can't believe it was the new line thing
2016-09-25T22:59:24Z raydeejay: it's all about making the right question
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2016-09-25T22:59:42Z raydeejay: in this case, "why T?"
2016-09-25T22:59:47Z fandral: yeah
2016-09-25T23:00:03Z fandral: i'm gonna let me professor know so that nobody else has to go through this horror
2016-09-25T23:00:14Z fandral: thank you so much for all the help
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2016-09-25T23:01:44Z raydeejay: the obvious solution is to never use comments
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2016-09-25T23:01:51Z raydeejay: that way you never run into this issue
2016-09-25T23:02:18Z raydeejay: or use #||
2016-09-25T23:03:08Z raydeejay: #||#
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2016-09-25T23:10:34Z fandral: Yeah I don't think many people even think of this as an issue when using comments
2016-09-25T23:10:50Z raydeejay: it shouldn't be
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2016-09-26T00:21:07Z akkad: is calling gc in sbcl typically required to free up available memory?
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2016-09-26T00:25:54Z Xach: akkad: no
2016-09-26T00:26:01Z Xach: akkad: it normally happens automatically.
2016-09-26T00:28:59Z akkad: have a use case of 1.5 million items enqueued onto a pcall-queue and dequeued every 100k. and sbcl ends up maxing out the 2GB heap despite the queue being emptied at 100k. not seeing the freeing I see from ccl/allegro/lw. rss never seems to decrease for me on sbcl. will make a test case and chart it out
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2016-09-26T03:12:45Z drmeister: Is there a way to read-delimited-list until the #\newline character?   r-d-l ignores whitespace.
2016-09-26T03:15:03Z Bike: i guess you could change newline's syntax type...
2016-09-26T03:16:32Z Bike: (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable))) (set-syntax-from-char #\Newline #\)) (read-delimited-list #\Newline)) works here. kinda shitty looking though.
2016-09-26T03:18:17Z drmeister: I need to write a parser that reads a sequence of commands from a file that look like this:
2016-09-26T03:18:18Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wH6JLa31/
2016-09-26T03:18:35Z drmeister: The rules are { ... } is a list that can span multiple lines.
2016-09-26T03:19:05Z drmeister: Each command ends at a newline (except lists change that)
2016-09-26T03:19:15Z drmeister: #... #\newline is a comment.
2016-09-26T03:19:58Z drmeister: Bike: That's an interesting suggestion.   I may need to switch the syntax type back and forth.
2016-09-26T03:20:15Z drmeister: When I start parsing a list I'd switch it back to whitespace.
2016-09-26T03:20:32Z Bike: clhs read-delimited-list
2016-09-26T03:20:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_del.htm
2016-09-26T03:20:43Z Bike: specifically says it's undefined if the endchar is whitespace, so you gotta do something like that
2016-09-26T03:20:56Z drmeister: When I start parsing a command or a comment I switch it back to non-white space and switch off lists.
2016-09-26T03:21:24Z drmeister: And I'd switch off lists in comments.
2016-09-26T03:21:32Z drmeister: #  {  stuff
2016-09-26T03:21:43Z Bike: or just (set-syntax-from-char #\# #\;)
2016-09-26T03:21:49Z Bike: i mean, maybe.
2016-09-26T03:21:54Z drmeister: Yes.
2016-09-26T03:21:56Z drmeister: That's easier.
2016-09-26T03:22:25Z Bike: i don't suppose this thing has an actual grammar associated with it
2016-09-26T03:23:25Z beach: drmeister: Did you get my mail?
2016-09-26T03:23:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-09-26T03:23:39Z drmeister: beach: I did - thank you very much!
2016-09-26T03:24:00Z drmeister: Bike: It doesn't have an actual grammar
2016-09-26T03:24:21Z Bike: "(This document taken from the appendix of Jason Swails' doctoral dissertation.)" figures
2016-09-26T03:24:56Z drmeister: Don't blame him - I wrote the original parser 25 years ago.
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2016-09-26T03:25:21Z Bike: oh. huh.
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2016-09-26T03:31:32Z drmeister: Cool - it looks like I might be able to replace a 1200 line parser written in yacc with this:
2016-09-26T03:31:34Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Si5SA4MQ/
2016-09-26T03:33:16Z Bike: if speed is a concern you could probably avoid copying the readtable in leap-list-reader. or in leap-parse-one-line for that matter
2016-09-26T03:33:23Z drmeister: That's not the final form.
2016-09-26T03:33:44Z drmeister: How can I avoid copying it?
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2016-09-26T03:35:18Z Bike: just modifying in place. since this isn't parallel or anything. (defun leap-list-reader (stream char) (unwind-protect (progn (set-syntax-from-char #\Newline #\Space) (read-delimited-list #\} stream t)) (set-syntax-from-char #\Newline #\)))) i think.
2016-09-26T03:35:45Z drmeister: I see.
2016-09-26T03:36:01Z Bike: and for parse-one-line you just use the same readtable between calls.
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2016-09-26T03:41:14Z drmeister: Speed isn't important here - I'll use copy-readtable for clarity
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2016-09-26T03:44:12Z drmeister: If the file doesn't end with a newline I've got a bit of a problem dealing with the last line.
2016-09-26T03:44:53Z drmeister: I could read the whole thing into memory and tack on a #\newline - it's a bit ugly though.
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2016-09-26T03:47:33Z drmeister: And it doesn't like trailing new lines
2016-09-26T03:47:39Z drmeister: trailing comments.
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2016-09-26T03:47:53Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/gFTtnrt4/
2016-09-26T03:48:10Z drmeister: This works:
2016-09-26T03:48:13Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/t352gMYT/
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2016-09-26T03:48:41Z drmeister: -->((LOADOFF TEST.LIB) (X = ("A" "B" "C")) (TEST = 3))
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2016-09-26T03:50:18Z drmeister: I'm off to bed - I'll play with it more tomorrow.
2016-09-26T03:50:52Z drmeister: But if I could do this with the lisp reader it would be great - a reduction from about 1200 lines of yacc to 12 lines of CL.
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2016-09-26T04:40:29Z jackdaniel: if you are into yacc shaving, there is implementation cl-yacc :D
2016-09-26T04:40:33Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2016-09-26T07:49:13Z dmiles: what is a good library for grovels thru lisp code and making docs of the functions?
2016-09-26T07:49:32Z dmiles: that grovels thru ones lisp code*
2016-09-26T07:50:11Z dmiles: oh and produces xrefed html :)
2016-09-26T07:52:38Z dmiles: ok Albert seems the best
2016-09-26T07:54:05Z dmiles: n/m i found http://www.cliki.net/documentation%20tool
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2016-09-26T08:11:38Z Cymew: As usual is the case there are options. No idea which one is best.
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2016-09-26T08:21:16Z shrdlu68: Hi, I'm getting errors with (ql:quickload :clws)
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2016-09-26T08:29:28Z shrdlu68: Xach: http://vhbin.net/x6ps389l9nnr
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2016-09-26T08:33:03Z otwieracz: Restart lisp and try to load UIOP
2016-09-26T08:33:06Z otwieracz: (ql:quickload :uiop)
2016-09-26T08:33:42Z otwieracz: Or maybe there's even no point.
2016-09-26T08:33:46Z otwieracz: Just execute g++ -m64 -Wno-write-strings -I/home/foo/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/iolib-v0.8.1/src/grovel/ -o /home/foo/.cach\
2016-09-26T08:33:49Z otwieracz: e/common-lisp/sbcl-1.3.9.100-6fb8e06-linux-x64/home/foo/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/iolib-v0.8.1/src/syscalls/ffi-\
2016-09-26T08:33:52Z otwieracz: types-unix /home/foo/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.3.9.100-6fb8e06-linux-x64/home/foo/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/iol\
2016-09-26T08:33:55Z otwieracz: ib-v0.8.1/src/syscalls/ffi-types-unix.c
2016-09-26T08:33:56Z otwieracz: (this command from your log) in terminal
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2016-09-26T08:37:30Z shrdlu68: otwieracz: It can't find lfp.h
2016-09-26T08:38:55Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: you need to install libfixposix
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2016-09-26T08:39:30Z jackdaniel: its a C library unifying some cludges between various posix systems
2016-09-26T08:41:40Z shrdlu68: I gather.
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2016-09-26T08:49:28Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: what's your OS ?
2016-09-26T08:55:03Z shrdlu68: fe[nl]ix: GNU/Linux. I fixed it as advised above.
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2016-09-26T09:13:02Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: that is ?
2016-09-26T09:13:19Z fe[nl]ix: don't install libfixposix from your distribution, because they're all too old
2016-09-26T09:16:22Z loke: It should be possible to compile and build lfp as part of iolib, imho
2016-09-26T09:16:33Z fe[nl]ix: I disagree
2016-09-26T09:17:25Z loke: fenlix: hmm, are there potential issues with that which I haven't thought of?
2016-09-26T09:18:44Z fe[nl]ix: building a proper C library is a task that ASDF can't do
2016-09-26T09:19:10Z fe[nl]ix: including running autoconf, ./configure, running the test suite, etc...
2016-09-26T09:19:18Z loke: fenlix: But you can run external programs? Wouldn't it be possible to simply run ./configure && make from there?
2016-09-26T09:19:54Z fe[nl]ix: and then what ?
2016-09-26T09:20:02Z fe[nl]ix: install it where ?
2016-09-26T09:20:09Z fe[nl]ix: and how to load it ?
2016-09-26T09:20:28Z loke: fenlix: .cache/common-lisp/... where ever the fasl files goes?
2016-09-26T09:21:32Z fe[nl]ix: and how do you deploy applications ?
2016-09-26T09:21:51Z fe[nl]ix: you don't need to copy fasls on the target, but you do need the shared library
2016-09-26T09:22:42Z loke: fenlix: true. I guess for deployment you need the library. But that's no different from today. You also need the library when deploying a binary.
2016-09-26T09:22:50Z fe[nl]ix: and how do you load it in a deployed application without saving fixed paths in the executable ?
2016-09-26T09:23:23Z loke: fenlix: you could have a fallback that first tries the cache one, and then the system-wide one.
2016-09-26T09:23:49Z fe[nl]ix: yes, but if you install a precompiled package it's much easier to manage it
2016-09-26T09:24:17Z fe[nl]ix: loke: so basically reimplement half the OS linker for no good reason other that an easy installation ?
2016-09-26T09:24:54Z loke: fenlix: No. Adding one extra search path for the library location isn't "reimplementing the OS linker", is it?
2016-09-26T09:25:08Z loke: But yes. Whatever work is needed is indeed for easy instalaltion.
2016-09-26T09:25:18Z loke: After all, it's the number one complaint about iolib.
2016-09-26T09:28:20Z fe[nl]ix: if people complain about a 2-minute step when you're supposed to use a library for much longer than that, I don't care
2016-09-26T09:29:01Z fe[nl]ix: we're not using Lisp Machines
2016-09-26T09:29:21Z fe[nl]ix: and fighting the host OS with custom installation method is pointless
2016-09-26T09:29:25Z fe[nl]ix: *methods
2016-09-26T09:29:26Z jackdaniel: I think its more about "I'm installing :clws and it doesn't work for no obvious reason", not "I'm too lazy to install libfixposix"
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2016-09-26T09:29:50Z fe[nl]ix: same thing
2016-09-26T09:29:55Z loke: I think when you install a library that happens to depend on iolib and lfp is not installed, then the error message can be incredibly cryptic.
2016-09-26T09:29:58Z jackdaniel: arguably
2016-09-26T09:30:04Z fe[nl]ix: in order to use something, one needs to install its dependencies
2016-09-26T09:30:58Z jackdaniel: in that case I think adding an explicit error "libfixposix isn't present, please install the dependency" would be cleaner than cryptic "lfp.h not found"
2016-09-26T09:31:22Z fe[nl]ix: having that error, yes
2016-09-26T09:31:44Z loke: jackdaniel: Sometimes the error is even more cryptic than "lfp.h not found"
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2016-09-26T09:31:57Z loke: I think when installing on ABCL
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2016-09-26T09:32:46Z jackdaniel: loke: I believe that error which says what's wrong is less cryptic than lack of header (in fact, I believe it would make it pretty obvious)
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2016-09-26T09:33:17Z jackdaniel: not that I would mind having it "just work"™ without any additional actions than quickload :)
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2016-09-26T09:34:35Z loke: Later I will try to install iolib using ABCL on a system without lfp to see what the error is.
2016-09-26T09:34:49Z fe[nl]ix: if the compilation fails, it's not necessarily because libfixposix isn't present
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2016-09-26T09:35:06Z loke: If I can find a way to improve that error message, I'll post a fix and hope that fenlix will merge :-)
2016-09-26T09:35:26Z jackdaniel: right, I mean signalling this particular cause explicitly, because it's not very obvious for CL programmers
2016-09-26T09:35:46Z jackdaniel: if it can be detected of course without ugly hacks at the compilation time
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2016-09-26T09:36:03Z fe[nl]ix: loke: you can handle the error in the ASDF component class
2016-09-26T09:37:03Z fe[nl]ix: loke: if you want to amuse yourself, ok
2016-09-26T09:37:16Z fe[nl]ix: but beyond SBCL and Clozure I don't care much
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2016-09-26T09:37:29Z loke: Fair enough
2016-09-26T09:37:38Z loke: I'll take a look
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2016-09-26T10:00:00Z loke: Speaking of iolib, is there is a call that allows me to look up the ip addresses for a given interface?
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2016-09-26T10:18:47Z fe[nl]ix: loke: no, that's so OS-specific I gave up on it
2016-09-26T10:19:16Z fe[nl]ix: :(
2016-09-26T10:19:20Z loke: fenlix: Oh, I looked at getifaddrs, and I thought it was standard.
2016-09-26T10:21:05Z fe[nl]ix: from getifaddrs(3): Conforming To
2016-09-26T10:21:05Z fe[nl]ix: Not in POSIX.1-2001. This function first appeared in BSDi and is present on the BSD systems, but with slightly different semantics
2016-09-26T10:21:14Z loke: argh
2016-09-26T10:21:25Z fe[nl]ix: and "slightly" is an understatement
2016-09-26T10:21:27Z loke: OK, I just resported to run-program on ifconfig :-)
2016-09-26T10:21:32Z loke: Works for my purpose
2016-09-26T10:21:46Z fe[nl]ix: I was about to suggest that
2016-09-26T10:22:24Z fe[nl]ix: although in general on Linux you're not assured to have ifconfig installed nowadays
2016-09-26T10:22:28Z fe[nl]ix: it's considered obsolete
2016-09-26T10:22:40Z raydeejay sighs
2016-09-26T10:22:47Z fe[nl]ix: parsing "ip address" should be more future-proof
2016-09-26T10:22:51Z fe[nl]ix: same goes for netstat
2016-09-26T10:23:06Z fe[nl]ix: go for "ip route" or "ip link"
2016-09-26T10:23:40Z fe[nl]ix: hmmm
2016-09-26T10:23:49Z H4ns: well, if you're not interested bsd, you can as well just call getifaddrs
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2016-09-26T10:24:46Z H4ns: in bsd, obviously.  because "ip" is a linux-only thing
2016-09-26T10:24:53Z fe[nl]ix: that's a good point
2016-09-26T10:24:58Z fe[nl]ix: loke: https://github.com/sionescu/posrednik/blob/master/src/interfaces.lisp
2016-09-26T10:25:17Z fe[nl]ix: that's an "ip" output parser from a failed project
2016-09-26T10:26:13Z fe[nl]ix: I had underestimated how complex NetworkManager is
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2016-09-26T10:41:39Z fe[nl]ix: loke: if you feel adventurous see https://github.com/hyperic/sigar
2016-09-26T10:41:56Z fe[nl]ix: that's an actual portable library for gathering system info
2016-09-26T10:42:15Z fe[nl]ix: it needs an FFI
2016-09-26T10:42:26Z fe[nl]ix: and it's not easy to compile
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2016-09-26T11:05:36Z flip214: well, or just read /proc/net/route or so...
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2016-09-26T11:06:11Z flip214: depending on what information is really needed
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2016-09-26T11:07:41Z flip214: or use socket() and ip(7), I believe that's getsockopt etc.
2016-09-26T11:07:57Z flip214: you could bind some udp port, and query the local address that you got
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2016-09-26T11:12:52Z fe[nl]ix: lots of options, all poorly documented
2016-09-26T11:13:51Z flip214: oh, socket() and ip(7) is good enough, I believe. Or socket(), bind(), getsockname()
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2016-09-26T11:23:07Z svetlyak40wt: Guys and girls, who knows how to reload a system in Common Lisp after I made (declaim (optimize (debug 3)))?
2016-09-26T11:24:31Z jackdaniel: if you use asdf, you may: (asdf:load-system 'my-system :force t)
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2016-09-26T11:32:59Z svetlyak40wt: jackdaniel: thank you very much. That is work!
2016-09-26T11:33:07Z jackdaniel: sure thing :)
2016-09-26T11:35:17Z flip214: /proc/net/fib_trie includes the IP address
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2016-09-26T11:47:45Z solene: hello, how would you connect to a ssl/tls socket ?
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2016-09-26T11:49:11Z flip214: I'd use cl+ssl
2016-09-26T11:49:24Z flip214: or if it's about https, drakma
2016-09-26T11:51:23Z solene: flip214 : I will see cl+ssl, I am connecting to an IRC server
2016-09-26T11:51:36Z solene: is it used instead of usocket then ?
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2016-09-26T12:03:08Z flip214: solene: well, then use cl-irc?
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2016-09-26T12:09:02Z solene: flip214: no, I'm writing an irc client from scratch
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2016-09-26T12:13:14Z flip214: good luck
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2016-09-26T12:14:27Z solene: flip214 : i'm writing from the client
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2016-09-26T12:14:40Z solene: thanks anyway ^^
2016-09-26T12:14:57Z flip214: you're welcome
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2016-09-26T12:31:54Z solene: I got it working with cl+ssl !
2016-09-26T12:32:36Z Xach: Super!
2016-09-26T12:33:39Z solene: using cl+ssh wasn't very intuitive
2016-09-26T12:33:45Z solene: s/ssh/ssl
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2016-09-26T13:34:29Z myrkraverk: I have yet to see an intuitive crypto library.
2016-09-26T13:35:22Z Munksgaard: myrkraverk: crypto is hard :(
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2016-09-26T13:37:33Z myrkraverk: Munksgaard: I know; and even the best libraries cannot prevent the programmer (user) from doing something stupid.
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2016-09-26T13:37:55Z myrkraverk: I've actually been learning a lot about crypto lately.
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2016-09-26T13:43:01Z Munksgaard: myrkraverk: Have you seen http://cryptopals.com/ ?
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2016-09-26T13:43:30Z Munksgaard: I've been having fun with those for a while, although I've been implementing my solutions in Rust.
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2016-09-26T13:48:29Z myrkraverk: Not sure if that site will load, and no.
2016-09-26T13:48:43Z myrkraverk: I've actually started implementing AES in lisp.
2016-09-26T13:48:48Z myrkraverk: Just to see how it works.
2016-09-26T13:49:13Z myrkraverk: Not sure if I'll do anything with it, but I think I should at least get the test vectors to pass tests.
2016-09-26T13:49:31Z myrkraverk: Maybe I'll try chacha too.
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2016-09-26T13:51:12Z Munksgaard: myrkraverk: Hm, it loads for me.
2016-09-26T13:51:32Z myrkraverk: I'm behind the Great Firewall of China today, I'm never sure if any single page will load.
2016-09-26T13:51:38Z myrkraverk: And it did, eventually.
2016-09-26T13:51:51Z myrkraverk: Can I take a look at Set 2?
2016-09-26T13:51:55Z myrkraverk: Or is there a set 2?
2016-09-26T13:52:12Z Munksgaard: Essentially it's a site with a bunch of small exercises that take you a bunch of encryption methods, and shows you how a lot of them can be broken.
2016-09-26T13:52:13Z myrkraverk: Oh yes http://cryptopals.com/sets/2
2016-09-26T13:52:46Z myrkraverk: Oh yeah -- I've been reading a book on cryptography (don't remember the title right now, it's at home) and it discusses the various attacks against TLS over time.
2016-09-26T13:52:59Z myrkraverk: So I'm famiiar with many of the attacks at surface level.
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2016-09-26T13:53:10Z sjl: ugh, just spent like an hour writing up something using maxpc because it looks neat, only to realize it's agpl
2016-09-26T13:53:18Z raydeejay: \o/
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2016-09-26T13:53:30Z Munksgaard: Cool! This'll give you a chance to actually implement some of them :)
2016-09-26T13:53:40Z sjl sighs, (ql:quickload 'smug)
2016-09-26T13:53:42Z myrkraverk: Munksgaard: yeah, thanks for the pointer.
2016-09-26T13:53:44Z Munksgaard: I've been enjoying it, although I still haven't gotten very far.
2016-09-26T13:53:52Z Munksgaard: myrkraverk: You're welcome :)
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2016-09-26T13:54:10Z myrkraverk: I won't be spending my China time on them, but thanks, I'll take a look.
2016-09-26T13:54:22Z raydeejay: if it's any consolation, sjl, been somewhat there, done somewhat that
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2016-09-26T13:54:45Z sjl: I need to write some kind of ASDF thing that raises a condition when I try to :depends-on something with GPL in the license
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2016-09-26T13:55:21Z raydeejay: heh
2016-09-26T13:55:52Z sjl: would have a benefit of possibly detecting inadvertent GPL-poisoning by something multiple-levels deep in the dependency tree
2016-09-26T13:57:07Z myrkraverk: Munksgaard: I don't see anything from the high level descriptions, so: do you know if any of these attacks are timing based?
2016-09-26T13:57:31Z myrkraverk: sjl: that would be really cool.
2016-09-26T13:57:33Z leo_song: myrkraverk: seems common lisp lack of encryption libraries, even openSSL wrapper.
2016-09-26T13:58:19Z myrkraverk: leo_song: there's one library I've used, for hashes, and there's cl+ssl which seems to suck.
2016-09-26T13:58:35Z myrkraverk: I sometimes get errors from cl+ssl thrown in my face, from drakma.
2016-09-26T13:58:51Z myrkraverk: I've yet to try to dig into it, to see what it really is.
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2016-09-26T13:58:59Z dlowe: security-as-ecosystem is fascinating, because the popular things are more hardened, but also more targeted.
2016-09-26T13:59:13Z myrkraverk: *nod*
2016-09-26T13:59:33Z dlowe: you could write a common lisp SSL library, and it would almost never get attacked unless someone was specifically targeting a system.
2016-09-26T13:59:47Z Munksgaard: myrkraverk: I seem to remember there being at least one timing attack
2016-09-26T13:59:51Z myrkraverk: True, which would quickly show up the crypto bugs in it ;p
2016-09-26T14:00:00Z pipping: myrkraverk: what do you think of ironclad?
2016-09-26T14:00:04Z dlowe: maybe, because the number of people attacking it would be smaller
2016-09-26T14:00:06Z myrkraverk: Munksgaard: ok, I'm interested in timing attacks -- to learn how to make them.
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2016-09-26T14:00:20Z myrkraverk: pipping: it's "ok" for hashes -- I haven't used it for anythnig else.
2016-09-26T14:00:23Z leo_song: myrkraverk: oh, i never noticed there are some ssl libraries, i always use (ql:system-apropos 'encrypt) for searching them
2016-09-26T14:00:51Z pipping: myrkraverk: 'okay' isn't great. why's it not great?
2016-09-26T14:00:52Z Munksgaard: myrkraverk: Although I can't seem to find it right now. I have to run to a meeting now, but perhaps I can find it for you later
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2016-09-26T14:01:36Z myrkraverk: pipping: I have to convert strings to-and-from octects.  Though I guess that part is kind of outside scope of the library, it's annoying to use to encrypt strings.
2016-09-26T14:01:56Z myrkraverk: It would be "nicer" to have encrypt-this-as-external-format: utf-8.
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2016-09-26T14:11:10Z pipping: right. but it's trivial for you to write corresponding wrappers if you do that a lot.
2016-09-26T14:11:53Z pipping: so i'll put that down as mild criticism
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2016-09-26T14:15:57Z pipping: (And now for something completely different) I was wondering what common lisp implementations people use and considered starting a poll. Maybe someone's already done that recently, though, without me knowing...
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2016-09-26T14:16:51Z Noon: Which is better, Racket or Common Lisp (SBCL)?
2016-09-26T14:17:38Z edgar-rft: Wich is better, T or NIL?
2016-09-26T14:17:44Z pipping: NIL!
2016-09-26T14:17:56Z jackdaniel: sjl: maybe something in line with http://paste.lisp.org/display/327154 ?
2016-09-26T14:18:00Z fe[nl]ix: Noon: Common Lisp, naturally
2016-09-26T14:18:34Z Noon: fe[nl]ix, why? Racket has generally a much better macro system
2016-09-26T14:18:55Z jackdaniel: if you know better than why do you ask? (:
2016-09-26T14:19:01Z jackdaniel: s/than/then/
2016-09-26T14:19:26Z Noon: jackdaniel, I want to make sure that Racket is generally better than CL?
2016-09-26T14:19:26Z raydeejay: racket has scheme macros
2016-09-26T14:19:30Z raydeejay: I will leave it at that...
2016-09-26T14:19:33Z myrkraverk: Noon: I've used both for sort of non trivial projects (CL more) and both are nice, but different enough that I can't compare them.
2016-09-26T14:19:34Z sjl: jackdaniel: nice, that could probably be expanded a little into something nicely robust
2016-09-26T14:19:52Z jackdaniel: I don't know how to hook it into asdf, but you may at least verify each system
2016-09-26T14:20:02Z pipping: myrkraverk: oranges > apples
2016-09-26T14:20:05Z edgar-rft: and not to forget that T has a better blah, blubber, blob
2016-09-26T14:20:12Z jackdaniel: I give you mit-0-clause license for that snippet ;)
2016-09-26T14:20:21Z sjl: hahaha
2016-09-26T14:20:28Z Noon: This channel is named Lisp, not Common Lisp, so I have the right to talk about Lisp and Lisp-related languages
2016-09-26T14:20:38Z myrkraverk: pipping: well, both oranges and apples have their uses -- I use them for different tasks (in cooking) and don't compare them.
2016-09-26T14:20:43Z Noon: So, Racket is better than CL, right?
2016-09-26T14:20:44Z raydeejay: actually, the topic clearly specifies Common Lisp
2016-09-26T14:20:46Z sjl: jackdaniel: you'd just run it on your own system you want to check, right?
2016-09-26T14:20:54Z jackdaniel: sjl: yeah
2016-09-26T14:21:06Z jackdaniel: I'm not against gpl though, so I have no need for such a script ;)
2016-09-26T14:21:20Z jackdaniel: but I understand your point of view there
2016-09-26T14:21:27Z sjl: I don't actually care about hooking it into ASDF, a way to just say "is there any GPL thing in my project's deps" is fine
2016-09-26T14:21:36Z sjl: s/GPL/any other license you want to check for/
2016-09-26T14:21:42Z jackdaniel: you'll have to write your own maptree
2016-09-26T14:22:04Z jackdaniel: (because I just made it up)
2016-09-26T14:22:10Z sjl: https://github.com/tarballs-are-good/quickutil/blob/master/quickutil-utilities/utilities/trees.lisp#L3
2016-09-26T14:22:15Z myrkraverk: Noon: I replied to you earlier, and there's no "clearly"
2016-09-26T14:22:20Z jackdaniel: ah :)
2016-09-26T14:22:23Z Xach: sjl: I'd like to make it easy to discover such info for quicklisp-provided systems
2016-09-26T14:22:32Z Xach: sjl: that is part of the "out of beta" plan
2016-09-26T14:22:51Z Noon: myrkraverk, who is Noon? Who are you talking too?
2016-09-26T14:22:57Z sjl: Xach: that would be nice, but yeah definitely a nice-to-have
2016-09-26T14:23:19Z dlowe: Noon: The "any lisp" channel is ##lisp
2016-09-26T14:23:20Z Noon: My point is that there is no good CL implementation, SBCL is good, but buggy and unportable
2016-09-26T14:23:22Z myrkraverk: /ignore Noon
2016-09-26T14:23:27Z Xach: Noon: Go away.
2016-09-26T14:23:45Z Noon: Xach, Go and Fuck Yourself (GaFY)
2016-09-26T14:23:53Z Noon: Bitch
2016-09-26T14:23:56Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
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2016-09-26T14:23:59Z akkad: Noon: you troll too much
2016-09-26T14:24:07Z Xach has set mode -bb *!*Minnie@*.socal.res.rr.com *!*abner@*.static.ziggozakelijk.nl
2016-09-26T14:24:09Z Xach has set mode +b *!*bf651efe@*.191.101.30.254
2016-09-26T14:24:14Z Noon [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Noon)
2016-09-26T14:24:18Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2016-09-26T14:26:15Z akkad: try porting cmucl to new platforms, then talk about "portability issues of sbcl" :P
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2016-09-26T14:26:45Z dlowe: I hope he doesn't find #clnoobs :p I failed to register it and its opsless
2016-09-26T14:28:47Z akkad: for json which of the libs tends to have the most love?
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2016-09-26T14:29:49Z myrkraverk: akkad: dunno about love, but there's  a perf comparison page somewhere.
2016-09-26T14:30:11Z svetlyak40wt: akkad: jonahan is very easy to use.
2016-09-26T14:30:14Z myrkraverk: and the two that seem to come up on top are jsown and jonathan, iirc.
2016-09-26T14:30:21Z akkad: yeah saw one from 2013. found cl-json a bit slow off sbcl
2016-09-26T14:30:41Z dlowe: I would prioritize ease of use over performance in one of my projects.
2016-09-26T14:31:08Z akkad: parse/decode all seem pretty easy to use.
2016-09-26T14:31:09Z myrkraverk: dlowe: that of course depends on how much json you're going to parse.
2016-09-26T14:31:33Z dlowe: True, though if you have to parse that much, then json is probably the wrong format.
2016-09-26T14:31:49Z raydeejay: then again maybe the format is what it is
2016-09-26T14:31:51Z akkad: I'll ask amazon to stop storing logs in it.
2016-09-26T14:31:52Z myrkraverk: Yeah, but sometimes someone else is in charge of the format.
2016-09-26T14:31:55Z akkad: :P
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2016-09-26T14:32:28Z myrkraverk: jsown is "ok" when it comes to create objects, but it's not really nice about it.
2016-09-26T14:32:37Z myrkraverk: I haven't used jonathan myself.
2016-09-26T14:33:03Z akkad: amazing how often the "don't use X then." comes up as if one never had to integrate with outside sources.
2016-09-26T14:33:22Z myrkraverk: Incidentally, self plugging since json came up: http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/2016/08/postgresql-load-json-with-lisp-and-postmodern/
2016-09-26T14:33:49Z akkad: saw that. pgloader not work? :P
2016-09-26T14:34:10Z Grue`: jsown can do some weird shit because it's compiled with safety 0
2016-09-26T14:34:44Z akkad: saw that.
2016-09-26T14:34:49Z akkad: tend to avoid libs where that's set
2016-09-26T14:34:58Z Grue`: i still use it for Ichiran because it's pretty nice otherwise
2016-09-26T14:35:05Z dlowe: akkad: sometimes even outside sources have some flexibility on formats
2016-09-26T14:35:18Z Grue`: and I don't read user-submitted JSON in that
2016-09-26T14:35:39Z myrkraverk: akkad: last time I checked, pgloader doesn't handle json arrays, nor subset of json.
2016-09-26T14:35:48Z akkad: cl-couch had some nice json utils
2016-09-26T14:35:53Z myrkraverk: dunno if it handles json at all.
2016-09-26T14:36:09Z akkad: ahh
2016-09-26T14:36:14Z _death: personally I've been using com.gigamonkeys.json for the last several years
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2016-09-26T15:04:33Z Munksgaard: myrkraverk: It looks like set 4 has some timing attacks. I haven't done them though, so I wouldn't know for sure.
2016-09-26T15:05:12Z myrkraverk: Munksgaard: nice, I'll start on the sets when I'm back home.
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2016-09-26T15:23:35Z rpg: sjl: I think you can find all the systems using some code that's already in ASDF. You probably have to eyeball them to get the licenses, though. People aren't necessarily good about putting in :license metadata (or :licence, since Fare might have added that), and even if they are, there isn't any machine-parsable format for that field.
2016-09-26T15:26:25Z akkad: yeah, cl-json clearly was the wrong choice
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2016-09-26T15:30:48Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/6ac5f5dde11ea19aabe3a38e50b0e850 jonathan seems pretty nice. thanks for the help
2016-09-26T15:31:28Z rpg: akkad: What do you get out of the different json libraries when you parse?
2016-09-26T15:32:18Z akkad: see gist above
2016-09-26T15:32:33Z rpg: Looks like there may be some apples-oranges comparison, since CL-JSON makes JSON into CLOS objects....
2016-09-26T15:32:43Z akkad: oh object wise? I can diff them. jsown seemed to do odd stuff
2016-09-26T15:32:50Z akkad: right
2016-09-26T15:33:28Z rpg: So if you want, e.g., method dispatch on stuff you read from JSON, CL-JSON might not be a completely stupid choice.
2016-09-26T15:33:31Z akkad: would explain all the clos stuff in the profiler output
2016-09-26T15:33:36Z svetlyak40wt: akkad: how large was the /tmp/test.json?
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2016-09-26T15:33:55Z rpg: But if you just need something simple, you might choose one of the others....
2016-09-26T15:33:56Z akkad:   Size: 1268671         Blocks: 2480       IO Block: 4096   regular file
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2016-09-26T15:36:13Z akkad: profiling was showing an excessive amount of time in json parson. so thus the testing
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2016-09-26T15:53:09Z pipping: hm. am I reading this incorrectly?
2016-09-26T15:53:11Z pipping: clhs loop
2016-09-26T15:53:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2016-09-26T15:53:29Z pipping: conditional::= {if | when | unless} form selectable-clause {and selectable-clause}*  ...
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2016-09-26T15:53:53Z pipping: so I'd expect to be able to do (silly sample code): (loop :for i :from 0 :below 10 :unless (= i 1) :do (format t "<<") and (format t "~a>>~%" i))
2016-09-26T15:54:18Z rpg: pipping: That has to be :do ... :and :do ....
2016-09-26T15:54:44Z rpg: So, of course, that's unnecessary, but :do ... :and :collect ... makes sense
2016-09-26T15:54:45Z pipping: right. I did read it incorrectly
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2016-09-26T15:55:46Z pipping: okay, :do form1 :and :do form2 is equivalent to :do form1 form2, I just wanted to understand why my example didn't work
2016-09-26T15:55:50Z pipping: thanks
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2016-09-26T15:58:02Z White_Flame: infix syntax ftw :-P
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2016-09-26T16:04:05Z rpg: Yeah, that's why we have stopped using LOOP and now use ITERATE exclusively
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2016-09-26T16:04:26Z rpg: The conditional syntax of the LOOP macro is a crawling horror.
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2016-09-26T16:04:37Z rpg: ... and don't get me started on using it with multiple values
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2016-09-26T16:08:26Z pipping: funnily enough, I asked that question because of finishing touches on moving my code back from iterate to loop
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2016-09-26T16:09:35Z rpg: You didn't want the dependency?
2016-09-26T16:10:06Z pipping: That's also a benefit. But I mostly didn't see any need for it anymore
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2016-09-26T16:11:15Z rpg: I just hate loop.  Am especially sick of reading misleading code layouts that come from people trying to trick emacs into formatting it sensibly.
2016-09-26T16:11:35Z rpg: Like sticking a single DO way out on the right end of a line and putting the whole body in there.
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2016-09-26T16:12:21Z rpg: Makes me think too hard about whether this is a "real" loop, or just a complex alias for DOLIST....
2016-09-26T16:13:05Z rpg: As I get older, I get more and more crabby about code that I can't read both quickly and accurately.
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2016-09-26T16:15:32Z pipping: rpg: how much do you hate https://github.com/pipping/delta-lisp/blob/master/delta.lisp#L52-L97 (scale from 0 to 10)
2016-09-26T16:18:15Z rpg: 6-7 --5 being the minimum hate for LOOP.  You are mostly using LOOP sensibly -- i.e., it's not just a more complicated alternative to DOLIST. But the nested conditional is a boggler.  First we have to read the Loop conditional (unless the process is alive), then we drop into a native Lisp conditional (COND for successful exit), then we bump back into LOOP syntax.
2016-09-26T16:19:04Z rpg: That's a pretty good example of why I prefer ITERATE -- we have to bump back and forth.  I have to think hard about the fact that one conditional execution path is signaled by :UNLESS and then one by cond inside the body of :UNLESS.
2016-09-26T16:19:59Z rpg: Might be easier to read if the nested loop was replaced by a function like (delete-process-children ...)
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2016-09-26T16:21:07Z rpg: Actually, I think your multilple :DO 's make it more readable than if there was only a single one.
2016-09-26T16:22:39Z pipping: delete-process-children is a good idea. Once you have a sufficiently large loop, it's easy to forget that you don't have to roll out the entire problem and solve it right here, right now ;)
2016-09-26T16:23:47Z Grue`: I'd replace the infinite outer loop with a basic (loop) form
2016-09-26T16:24:00Z rpg: Also, as someone who spends a ton of his time debugging, I dislike open-coded loops because they reduce the number of places I can TRACE.
2016-09-26T16:24:08Z Grue`: (loop (let (pwr-list (part 0)) ...))
2016-09-26T16:24:45Z pipping: Grue`: I view the two as identical, except that one requires more indentation ;)
2016-09-26T16:24:58Z rpg: I hate the simple loop form more than anything.
2016-09-26T16:25:43Z rpg: oh, wait -- sorry, no.  I meant DO.
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2016-09-26T16:25:50Z Grue`: with simple loop form you'd be using actual lisp code such as (when ...) instead of :when ... :do ... which is harder to understand
2016-09-26T16:26:05Z rpg: Grue`: Yes, that's why I prefer ITERATE to LOOP
2016-09-26T16:27:18Z rpg: DO is the one I really hate, because it's so hard to visually parse the exit forms without any syntactic markers to help you.
2016-09-26T16:27:34Z Grue`: well, I don't know ITERATE so I'd probably be slightly confused if I had to read code that uses it. at least LOOP is a standard
2016-09-26T16:27:53Z rpg: Grue`: For us ITERATE is the local standard.
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2016-09-26T16:28:24Z rpg: so we don't have that problem.
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2016-09-26T16:32:51Z jasom: I find any loop with about 5 or fewer loop statements to be quite readable.  It's often harder for me to write than the equivalent map &c. form, but I find that it is much easier to read until you get into things like nested conditionals and such.
2016-09-26T16:33:09Z dim: what about iterate?
2016-09-26T16:33:19Z dim: I'm yet to use it myself... I tend to quite like loop
2016-09-26T16:33:36Z dim: oh apparently backlog contains iterate, reading
2016-09-26T16:33:47Z Grue`: I was looking for my most monstrous LOOP, and found a loop that itself is rather short but it's FINALLY clause is 2 pages long
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2016-09-26T16:35:26Z jasom: I haven't tried it yet.  I tried series, but I was unable to figure out certain forms of nested iteration that can be useful.
2016-09-26T16:35:47Z jasom: Just for fun I wrote my own iteration dsl as well.
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2016-09-26T16:36:38Z rpg: jasom: I used SERIES once for a major hunk of code and then... couldn't read my own code 6 months later.
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2016-09-26T16:37:19Z rpg: Also, since it only optimizes inside its own lexical boundaries, I found it didn't work that well for me. My predilection for introducing sub-functions essentially broke its optimization.
2016-09-26T16:38:05Z dlowe: rpg: that's sad. I was hoping series would be far better at scale
2016-09-26T16:38:14Z dlowe: (not in optimization, I knew that was broken)
2016-09-26T16:38:33Z dlowe: I had an ambition to make an sbcl-specific series that could work outside the lexical boundaries
2016-09-26T16:39:12Z jasom: sub functions in complicated iteration constructs are a very Good Thing.
2016-09-26T16:39:16Z rpg: Maybe if one used it religiously, but I found that when I'd been away from it, I just couldn't read it any more.
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2016-09-26T16:39:47Z rpg: dlowe: something that could optimize nested iterations would be very cool.
2016-09-26T16:40:37Z rpg: I found that my code ended up just making a lot of generators and passing them around, which definitely wasn't the sweet spot for SERIES.
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2016-09-26T16:45:23Z jasom: rpg: oh, did I miss any free lisps in my testing of the run-program branch (just for future reference).
2016-09-26T16:47:13Z pipping: jasom: these are the lisps I test with: http://139.162.161.212/asdf/summary.html
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2016-09-26T16:47:50Z jasom: ah
2016-09-26T16:48:01Z jasom: some of those don't run on windows I think (cmucl, clasp)?
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2016-09-26T16:49:33Z rpg: jasom: I'll have to check and get back to you.
2016-09-26T16:49:58Z rpg: Would you resend me the link to your results? Sorry I have to run out to an appointment, and I'll be away for about 90 minutes.
2016-09-26T16:51:58Z jasom: rpg: I only ran on clisp 2.49i(32 bit), ccl 1.11(64-bit) and sbcl 1.3.6(64-bit); ecl failed to run any of the tests.
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2016-09-26T16:52:16Z jasom: rpg: unfortunately I ran the tests on my personal laptop which I don't have with me.
2016-09-26T16:54:04Z jasom: pipping: I'll use that as a basis for the automated windows testing I'm working on.  thanks for the list
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2016-09-26T18:06:04Z sjl: jackdaniel: cleaned up the formatting a bit: https://github.com/sjl/cl-losh/blob/master/losh.lisp#L1384
2016-09-26T18:06:14Z sjl: works nicely for what I need, thanks
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2016-09-26T18:30:05Z mordocai: jasom: Was it you who was talking about how you had ASDF compiling parenscript for you? If so, can you link me to an example again? I'm going to be hacking some parenscript with a friend tomorrow and we might want to handle it through asdf depending.
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2016-09-26T18:34:50Z phoe: I just realized that SETF allows you to make any setting operation atomic.
2016-09-26T18:36:06Z phoe: By defining (SETF FOO BAR) as (WITH-LOCK-HELD ((LOCK FOO)) (SETF (SLOT-VALUE ...) BAR))
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2016-09-26T18:42:12Z phoe: ...it's such a simple idea that now I need to rethink all locking inside my server.
2016-09-26T18:42:19Z phoe: God damn it, time for another refactor.
2016-09-26T18:43:23Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: better use a smarter design and not lock
2016-09-26T18:44:57Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: please elaborate
2016-09-26T18:45:34Z phoe: right now I'm using a multithreaded server with the principle that one thread may only ever hold one lock
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2016-09-26T18:48:20Z fe[nl]ix: locking is slow, unless you really know what you're doing
2016-09-26T18:48:45Z emaczen: How do I tell fiveam:test to skip when I evaluate (asdf:test-system ...)?
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2016-09-26T18:49:54Z fe[nl]ix: emaczen: skip what ?
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2016-09-26T18:50:51Z emaczen: fe[nl]ix: to skip the test
2016-09-26T18:51:17Z emaczen: I've written a test, and I just want it to be skipped by default, but I want it to appear in the summary information as a skip.
2016-09-26T18:52:32Z raydeejay: may I ask why, out of curiosity?
2016-09-26T18:53:01Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: what other options do I have?
2016-09-26T18:54:00Z fe[nl]ix: it depends on what you're locking
2016-09-26T18:54:33Z fe[nl]ix: e.g., if it's transferring ownership of some object a lockless mailbox would work
2016-09-26T18:54:50Z phoe: Basically, a thread may lock a data structure to modify it.
2016-09-26T18:55:03Z phoe: And no other thread may access it during that time, be it for read or write
2016-09-26T18:55:29Z fe[nl]ix: what is it modifying ?
2016-09-26T18:57:04Z phoe: basically - slots
2016-09-26T18:57:20Z phoe: that hold strings, lists, object references
2016-09-26T18:57:25Z phoe: basically everything
2016-09-26T18:57:39Z fe[nl]ix: be more specific
2016-09-26T18:57:55Z fe[nl]ix: what do they represent ?
2016-09-26T18:59:14Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/gateway/tree/master/impl
2016-09-26T18:59:33Z phoe: a single TCP connection
2016-09-26T18:59:58Z phoe: a simple wrapper around a hashtable
2016-09-26T19:00:00Z raydeejay: you don't really need threads for this
2016-09-26T19:00:35Z phoe: a queue of events waiting to get processed
2016-09-26T19:01:22Z phoe: a list of connections that need to be checked for input and cleaned up whenever they die
2016-09-26T19:01:47Z phoe: I don't want to create a server with a single thread for everything.
2016-09-26T19:02:00Z raydeejay: because...
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2016-09-26T19:02:57Z phoe: This sounds like a bad idea for much later on, when a single core stops being enough for it.
2016-09-26T19:03:41Z raydeejay: pay now the cost of threading for something that might not happen?
2016-09-26T19:06:26Z phoe: Yes - plus I don't know how to work with a few issues other than with threads.
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2016-09-26T19:06:51Z raydeejay: from the description in github it sounds pretty much like a MUD
2016-09-26T19:07:11Z phoe: raydeejay: yep, sounds about right
2016-09-26T19:07:12Z raydeejay: very few MUDs are threaded, and they've been doing fine for decades for the most part
2016-09-26T19:07:45Z raydeejay is rather familiar with Diku and derivatives
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2016-09-26T19:09:10Z vauban: Let each thread work on a seperate (and disjointed) piece of logic.
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2016-09-26T19:10:52Z phoe: raydeejay: does it scale up to 1000+ users?
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2016-09-26T19:12:48Z oGMo: scaled at _least_ to hundreds of users in the 90s
2016-09-26T19:15:15Z mordocai: Your main problem with scaling (CPU on the simulation) should be able to be scaled/threaded separately from the networking.
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2016-09-26T19:15:51Z phoe: I already thought of this, though I'm not implementing this right now.
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2016-09-26T19:16:21Z phoe: My current idea of the architecture is, Network <==> Crown <==> Jewels
2016-09-26T19:16:27Z phoe: where a crown is the current code
2016-09-26T19:16:44Z dmiles: btw, i am about to continue my Lisp MUD at http://logicmoo.sourceforge.net/jamud-plugin/ :)
2016-09-26T19:16:47Z phoe: which is basically a login center that receives messages from everything else and sends it around.
2016-09-26T19:17:04Z phoe: whereas jewels are workers that store user-created "worlds" and work on them.
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2016-09-26T19:17:26Z phoe: Every "world" will be a completely separate entity and it'll get locked as a whole by a thread whenever it needs to be serviced, so that's not a problem.
2016-09-26T19:17:37Z phoe: A bigger problem is the crown and its threadedness.
2016-09-26T19:17:45Z raydeejay: um... #lispgames? :)
2016-09-26T19:18:03Z mordocai: phoe: I'd be interested in doing a more actor based model with lockless message queues personally but I don't have your design in my head so possible that is off base
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2016-09-26T19:18:50Z phoe: mordocai: that's roughly what I'm following! Except there's a single message queue that multiple actor threads (called gems) work on.
2016-09-26T19:18:52Z dmiles: raydeejay, ah yeah i should annound it there.. thanks
2016-09-26T19:19:07Z fkac: I think all of #lispgames is here too :p
2016-09-26T19:19:40Z phoe: The threadedness in here is concentrated in three areas, a) accepting connections, b) reading from alive connections and cleaning dead ones, c) serving the event queue.
2016-09-26T19:19:43Z mordocai: fkac: Not quite all I think
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2016-09-26T19:20:13Z phoe: And it's that design that I want to get right.
2016-09-26T19:21:06Z phoe: right now, it's 5+N threads. Two are dedicated for accepting external (client) and internal (jewel) connections, three read data from connections and put messages on queue and clean dead connections, and N work on messages.
2016-09-26T19:21:10Z phoe: Where N≥1.
2016-09-26T19:21:24Z phoe: So I don't think it's that terribly complicated now.
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2016-09-26T19:21:44Z phoe: Oh, right.
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2016-09-26T19:22:28Z phoe: The three threads that work on connections are separated. Because I have three classes (lists) of connections - new, authenticated and internal. Each list has their own single listener thread.
2016-09-26T19:22:45Z phoe: So each thread has its own single responsibility.
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2016-09-26T19:23:05Z mordocai: Hmm... yeah, i'd have to look at it in more detail to see if I like the architecture or not (and I don't have time now)
2016-09-26T19:26:28Z phoe: mordocai: well, I can make a quick sketch of it if you'd like
2016-09-26T19:27:24Z mordocai: phoe: Sure. It'd mainly be for you to get feedback not for me, so if you want to hear what I think feel free :)
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2016-09-26T19:27:37Z mordocai: (and others, assuming you publish it here)
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2016-09-26T19:51:15Z drmeister: What are examples of great software developed by lone wolf programmers?
2016-09-26T19:51:42Z drmeister: TeX(Knuth), Linux/git (Torvalds), Emacs(Stallman)
2016-09-26T19:52:27Z drmeister: People who went off and developed something that become the dominant solution in a domain?
2016-09-26T19:52:41Z jasom: mordocai: it was
2016-09-26T19:52:53Z phoe: mordocai: over 900 hours in mspaint
2016-09-26T19:52:54Z phoe: https://i.sli.mg/4OQEIc.png
2016-09-26T19:53:41Z jasom: mordocai: https://github.com/jasom/cl-fccs/blob/master/cl-fccs.asd#L44 view.lisp is a parenscript file; add more as needed (the explicit dependency is needed even with :serial as :serial only serializes lisp files).
2016-09-26T19:54:31Z phoe: Library is my datastore which right now is a simple hashtable. Later I'll resort to a proper database the moment I'll need it.
2016-09-26T19:54:40Z jasom: mordocai: https://github.com/jasom/cl-fccs/blob/master/src/genparenscript.lisp <-- this generates the actual parenscript, and then shells out to a script that adds libraries and minifies and gzips
2016-09-26T19:54:44Z phoe: I think I already explained everything else.
2016-09-26T19:55:05Z drmeister: Emacs (Stallman and Steele) according to Wikipedia
2016-09-26T19:55:32Z jasom: mordocai: I basically said "ASDF is really good at compiling and loading lisp files; I could teach it how to do the same for parenscript, *or* I could figure out how to map generating my javascript to compiling and loading lisp files.  I chose the latter.
2016-09-26T19:56:02Z aeth: drmeister: I wouldn't be surprised if all of the popular IRC clients are mostly developed by one person, especially the non-graphical ones. Not quite dominant because there are more than one, and it's not counting the server side, but some are very popular.
2016-09-26T19:56:09Z aeth: So if you lower your bar a bit you find a lot of single programmer projects
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2016-09-26T19:57:04Z drmeister: Sure, I'll lower my bar.
2016-09-26T19:57:34Z drmeister: My examples weren't to set the bar - they were the first things that popped into my noggin.
2016-09-26T19:58:13Z aeth: irssi has one "original author" according to Wikipedia. BitchX has two, though.
2016-09-26T19:58:25Z aeth: oh, I was right, most of these are one person. Some are two or three. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_Relay_Chat_clients
2016-09-26T19:58:44Z jasom: mordocai: Generating the .js file from parenscript is done at compile time (only needs to happen once each time a dependency changes), but generating my final gzipped-minified-output I do on every load so that if e.g. a library or build configuration option changes it will get picked up on the next load.
2016-09-26T19:58:53Z aeth: Emacs's ERC has two authors.
2016-09-26T19:58:58Z _death: drmeister: first thing that came to mind was sqlite
2016-09-26T19:59:31Z jasom: drmeister: html and Tim Berners-Lee?
2016-09-26T19:59:49Z aeth: drmeister: A lot of the popular web frameworks just have one author.
2016-09-26T19:59:51Z jasom: Most software before circa 1985?
2016-09-26T20:00:18Z aeth: drmeister: All of the things I can think of are more components than standalone things, like e.g. just clients or just servers or just parts of server infrastructure.
2016-09-26T20:01:08Z rpg: jasom: I hate to say this as an ASDF person, but it's not obvious to me that this is something that "make" wouldn't just do better.
2016-09-26T20:01:24Z aeth: There are probably a lot of Unix utilities like that, too. Anything that's small that can interoperate with a larger ecosystem. Probably plugins and add-ons for various software, too.
2016-09-26T20:01:28Z jasom: rpg: I use shell to a make-like program
2016-09-26T20:01:56Z jasom: rpg: but I do it in such a way that when I load it with asdf, it shells out.
2016-09-26T20:02:09Z jasom: rpg: keeps me from having to leave my REPL
2016-09-26T20:02:40Z rpg: jasom: I definitely know that feeling of not having to leave the REPL
2016-09-26T20:02:49Z drmeister: Great - thank you - that gives me enough to make my point.
2016-09-26T20:03:16Z aeth: Also, most libraries (including on Quicklisp) probably have one to three primary authors.
2016-09-26T20:03:30Z jasom: And the part where it generates a javascript file that is updated when dependencies change is, IMO, reasonable for ASDF to do.  Ideally I'd teach ASDF to build javascript files, but this was an easy way for me to not have to learn how to do that.
2016-09-26T20:03:31Z _death: drmeister: also, bellard.org
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2016-09-26T20:04:14Z rpg: jasom: It shouldn't be hard. If you would like to learn how to do it, I'd help you in exchange for you helping me use it as a test case to put in the manual.
2016-09-26T20:05:31Z aeth: jasom: I would actually say most software, not just most software before 1985. Especially if you make it "1-3" not "1" and clarify as "primary author" not e.g. someone who makes one Github pull request once.
2016-09-26T20:05:56Z jasom: rpg: I am interested, but busy for at least several days.  I'm fine with my solution, but it seems to be a FAQ in the parenscript community
2016-09-26T20:06:01Z aeth: Possibly not most software by hours used (Microsoft Office probably has tons of authors and is probably the most used set of programs), but definitely most by quantity.
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2016-09-26T20:06:27Z jasom: aeth: I was specifically talking about software in the set "Dominant solution in a domain"
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2016-09-26T20:06:55Z mordocai: Speaking of, one of the number one nice things for parenscript would be learning es5 and es6
2016-09-26T20:07:00Z jasom: If you drop down to 1-3 developers, then yeah it's much bigger
2016-09-26T20:07:07Z aeth: jasom: Most dominant solutions these days probably start out small and then become a group effort when they become dominant. e.g. probably every framework that doesn't originate from a big company
2016-09-26T20:07:12Z jasom: mordocai: what in particular?
2016-09-26T20:07:38Z jasom: aeth: right, and with linux and emacs as examples, those would be clearly allowed by drmeister
2016-09-26T20:07:38Z aeth: even MS-DOS was just one programmer's project at first, iirc
2016-09-26T20:07:49Z aeth: so if Linux counts, MS-DOS counts
2016-09-26T20:07:53Z jasom: yup
2016-09-26T20:08:06Z aeth: 1981, though.
2016-09-26T20:08:12Z rpg: jasom: OK, I'm pretty busy through this week, too. But we could maybe touch base early next week.
2016-09-26T20:08:23Z jasom: rpg: sounds like a plan
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2016-09-26T20:10:09Z aeth: jasom: I would guess that almost all dominant software that doesn't originate from a company, or even ones that originate from small companies, are almost always 1-3, probably mostly 1, at the start. I'm not sure how I'd go about proving this with data, though.
2016-09-26T20:10:19Z aeth: Merely because that's how most software in general is.
2016-09-26T20:10:30Z aeth: Although smaller projects are probably more likely to fail.
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2016-09-26T20:14:51Z PuercoPop: I'm really impressed by the amount of work done by lparallel and cl-cffi-gtk authors, both in code and documentation. Wookie as well (although the scope is a little smaller)
2016-09-26T20:15:39Z mordocai: jasom: Using the new looping constructs would be nice. I did a for in or something in parenscript and it ended up generating a nasty manual for loop
2016-09-26T20:15:48Z mordocai: Besides that though, nothing very specific in mind just in general
2016-09-26T20:17:15Z jasom: *sigh* of course iolib contains a fork of the cffi groveller.  I wish I were surprised at this point.
2016-09-26T20:18:27Z PuercoPop: jasom: are you familiar with Vacietis? How viable would it be to use their reader to extract the constants?
2016-09-26T20:19:59Z _death: autowrap is nice
2016-09-26T20:21:28Z Quadresce: jasom, hahahahaha
2016-09-26T20:23:20Z jasom: I'm slightly surprised iolib uses the groveller at all, since I thought it specifically didn't make system-calls on its own, but deferred to libfixposix for that.
2016-09-26T20:23:46Z Quadresce: libfixiolib
2016-09-26T20:23:56Z jasom: libfixlibfixposix
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2016-09-26T20:25:51Z emaczen: What is most recommended for converting from a character to a symbol.
2016-09-26T20:26:07Z jasom: emaczen: define "character" and "symbol"
2016-09-26T20:26:27Z emaczen: jasom: aren't both of these defined types in CL?
2016-09-26T20:26:44Z emaczen: jasom: I could do (make-symbol (string ch)) for some character ch
2016-09-26T20:26:45Z jasom: emaczen: yes, and that answers my question
2016-09-26T20:27:08Z phoe: mordocai: I posted a sketchup of my architecture (just in case you missed it)
2016-09-26T20:27:15Z jasom: and (make-symbol (string ch)) is what I would do.
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2016-09-26T20:27:51Z jasom: or intern rather than make-symbol if I wanted it interned
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2016-09-26T20:28:03Z jasom: emaczen: what's the use-case?
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2016-09-26T20:29:48Z emaczen: jasom: I've written some pattern-matching code that uses symbols
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2016-09-26T20:39:14Z rpg: emaczen: do you need to compare with EQ?
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2016-09-26T20:54:24Z mordocai: phoe: My first thought is that it looks a bit overly complicated. I'll gather some thoughts and hit you up if I have time after work.
2016-09-26T20:54:41Z mordocai: Using a bot notify if you aren't around
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2016-09-26T20:57:58Z jasom: phoe: in general single-threaded network servers scale much better than single-thread-per-connection implementations, due to the overhead of OS threads.
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2016-09-26T21:11:16Z xtal: is it possible to pass a lambda into a function as an argument, then later evaluate the function with funcall?
2016-09-26T21:11:42Z PuercoPop: xtal: yes
2016-09-26T21:12:32Z Quadresce: xtal, lots of programming tricks stem from that ability
2016-09-26T21:12:34Z raydeejay: why wouldn't it be?
2016-09-26T21:13:00Z raydeejay: (honest non-rethorical question about your previous beliefs)
2016-09-26T21:13:30Z Quadresce: raydeejay, It may seem like functions are only local or toplevel things
2016-09-26T21:13:46Z raydeejay: um
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2016-09-26T21:14:21Z raydeejay: maybe I can't see it that way anymore
2016-09-26T21:14:48Z Quadresce: they're not, of course, but it takes practice to understand that functions are objects like any other, and one thing you can do with this object is call it. It's especially non-trivial with the notion of closures and captured environments, mix that with special variables, erc.
2016-09-26T21:14:50Z xtal: im new to lisp, i kept trying and getting an error, i just didnt realize i had to denote it wih #'
2016-09-26T21:14:51Z Quadresce: etc*
2016-09-26T21:15:35Z raydeejay: Quadresce: would you say that having used function pointers in C makes that more apparent?
2016-09-26T21:15:55Z Quadresce: Yes, almost surely.
2016-09-26T21:16:57Z raydeejay: and then I knew about closures already, too... ok, I see it now
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2016-09-26T21:19:33Z jasom: xtal: lambdas don't need to be denoted with #' (the implementation of lambda does that for you already), but #' is needed if you want to pass a named function as an argument.
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2016-09-26T21:27:55Z phoe: jasom: I don't do single-thread-per-connection.
2016-09-26T21:28:08Z phoe: I do one-thread-per-group-of-connections.
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2016-09-26T21:28:17Z phoe: Where a group can have an arbitrary number of them.
2016-09-26T21:28:24Z phoe: mordocai: please do.
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2016-09-26T21:31:41Z phoe: xtal: one more thing. Common Lisp has different namespaces for functions and variables, where other Lisp dialects, most namely Scheme, doesn't.
2016-09-26T21:32:54Z raydeejay: and more things than functions and variables :)
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2016-09-26T21:47:09Z xtal: phoe: ah, alright. thanks for the heads up!
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2016-09-26T22:47:09Z phoe: okay
2016-09-26T22:47:10Z phoe: niiiiiiight
2016-09-26T22:47:22Z phoe: if anyone feels like it - grab a hold of Gateway and give the tests a try.
2016-09-26T22:47:28Z phoe: They should all be running as of now.
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2016-09-26T22:48:00Z raydeejay: o/
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2016-09-26T22:49:22Z phoe: \o
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2016-09-26T22:50:36Z phoe: dlowe: I managed it to run, but I get connection refused.
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2016-09-26T23:03:51Z phoe: wait, this is not #lispgames.
2016-09-26T23:03:58Z phoe: pfft.
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2016-09-27T00:03:55Z fkac: Any c2ffi devs here?
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2016-09-27T00:05:18Z fkac: Or does anyone know what "rpav" goes by on IRC if anything?
2016-09-27T00:08:06Z Bike: i think that is oGMo?
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2016-09-27T01:28:51Z axion: yep
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2016-09-27T01:45:33Z fkac: Bike, axion: It is, thanks
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2016-09-27T04:28:22Z drmeister: Has anyone written a parser in Common Lisp lately?  What's a good one?  There are too many choices here:  http://www.cliki.net/parser%20generator
2016-09-27T04:34:05Z drmeister: This looks interesting - but I haven't used packrat parsing before:  https://github.com/nikodemus/esrap
2016-09-27T04:35:19Z loke: drmeister: I use cl-yacc
2016-09-27T04:35:31Z loke: drmeister: Worked very well for my template language parser.
2016-09-27T04:36:03Z loke: drmeister: here's my code: https://github.com/lokedhs/lofn/blob/master/parser.lisp#L241
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2016-09-27T04:37:35Z cromachina: i've used parser-combinators to good effect, but have not tried anything else to compare
2016-09-27T04:37:53Z jasom: drmeister: I've used smug and esrap
2016-09-27T04:38:09Z loke: Haha. Seems like they all work fine. :-)
2016-09-27T04:38:18Z loke: Doesn't make drmeisters choice either though.
2016-09-27T04:38:22Z loke: I mean "easier"
2016-09-27T04:38:23Z drmeister: loke: Thanks - if we have had this conversation several months ago - I apologize.  I'm feeling a strong sense of deja vu.
2016-09-27T04:38:39Z loke: drmeister: I wouldn't remember. :-)
2016-09-27T04:38:45Z jasom: I avoid LALR parsers like the plague; I'm happier hand-writing a recursive decent parser than using a yacc-alike.
2016-09-27T04:38:47Z drmeister: Excellent.
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2016-09-27T04:39:42Z loke: jasom: Why is that?
2016-09-27T04:39:43Z jasom: but that's a personal bias
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2016-09-27T04:40:02Z drmeister: I've written several parsers in C using yacc and bison.
2016-09-27T04:40:07Z loke: jasom: It's clearly personal since I disagree with you, but I'm very intrigued as to what it is you dislike about them.
2016-09-27T04:40:26Z loke: drmeister: I found cl-yacc to be very comfortable, since my experience with parsers have mainly been Yacc.
2016-09-27T04:40:28Z jasom: loke: each yacc alike has its own BNF form; separate tokenization and parsing stages is odd.  *much* easier to debug code I wrote
2016-09-27T04:40:31Z loke: (and lex/bison)
2016-09-27T04:41:05Z drmeister: Ok, thanks
2016-09-27T04:41:21Z loke: jasom: I see. I guess I never found the tokenisation step to be odd since I'm so used to it.
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2016-09-27T04:41:50Z jasom: loke: it's what I learned first; we learned some LL(n) parser and yacc in my compilers class, and that was my first introduction to parsing.
2016-09-27T04:42:18Z loke: jasom: Recently I've been using ANTLR, and I find _that_ one to be frustratingly odd.
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2016-09-27T04:43:07Z jasom: the first time I saw a recursive decent parser, I understood it immediately.  Adding more structure like esrap or a monadic library does helps you from going too crazy too.
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2016-09-27T04:48:04Z jasom: esrap also makes it impossible for you to describe an ambiguous grammar.  It makes some rules more complicated (and others impossible), but when you don't want ambiguity, it's nice.  If I need exhaustive search of the parse space I use smug, otherwise I use esrap.
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2016-09-27T06:07:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-09-27T06:09:18Z jdz_: Good morning, beach!
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2016-09-27T06:10:51Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-09-27T06:11:53Z beach: xtal: There is no such thing as "a lambda" in Common Lisp.  The macro LAMBDA and the special operator FUNCTION (abbreviated #') when passed a "lambda expression", return a "function".  And FUNCALL does not "evaluate" the function that it is passed.  It "calls" it.
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2016-09-27T06:15:38Z White_Flame: "is it possible to pass a lambda into a function as an argument, then later evaluate the function with funcall?" -> "is it possible to pass a [function object] into a function as an argument, then later [call] the function with funcall?"  yep
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2016-09-27T06:16:37Z beach: White_Flame: Right.  Using the correct terminology is important.
2016-09-27T06:17:37Z White_Flame: yes, though learners tend to use descriptions before all that terminology is cemented in
2016-09-27T06:18:49Z beach: True, and that is why I wanted to correct it as soon as possible.
2016-09-27T06:19:22Z White_Flame: btw, so I'm going through some old code and hit an old bug, and I'm curious if it's undefined behavior or expected:
2016-09-27T06:19:53Z White_Flame: there's a (defvar *foo* (make-hash-table)), and macroexpansions have a side effect of filling in that table.  Runtime code expects to read the populated table.
2016-09-27T06:21:06Z White_Flame: If ASDF compiles the .lisp file, the table is populated.  If it loads the cached fasl, the table is empty.
2016-09-27T06:21:18Z White_Flame: (under sbcl)
2016-09-27T06:21:37Z White_Flame: Undefined behavior, or expected consequence of doing the wrong thing?
2016-09-27T06:22:29Z H4ns: White_Flame: i would think it is expected behavior.  macroexpansions are perofmed at compile time.  evaluation of top-level forms is done at load time.
2016-09-27T06:23:10Z White_Flame: but would a fasl save have saved the value of the filled-in hashtable, and the evaluation of the DEFVAR wouldn't change the value because it was already loaded from the fasl?
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2016-09-27T06:23:42Z White_Flame: I don't know as much about the boundaries of FASLs as applied to compiletime/toplevel
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2016-09-27T06:24:08Z beach: No, the FASL does not contain the populated table.
2016-09-27T06:24:13Z H4ns: White_Flame: no.  a fasl is just a "fast load" file which preserves the loading semantics.  macroexpansion is a compile-time thing though.
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2016-09-27T06:25:13Z White_Flame: so the "loading semantics" are not equivalent to loading the original source code, which would include making macroexpansion calls?
2016-09-27T06:26:03Z beach: Correct.  There is a concept of "minimal compilation".
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2016-09-27T06:27:51Z H4ns: i love it that in common lisp, i can't get away with my hand-wavy explanations :)
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2016-09-27T06:28:44Z White_Flame: and I love that I can ask such a specific question and be pointed to detailed specs outlining why it's happening
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2016-09-27T06:29:34Z White_Flame: I have hit this issue in a few projects, and it's always a pain:  macros which catalog the various things they've acted on, and runtime access to that info
2016-09-27T06:29:36Z H4ns: this is what i mean.
2016-09-27T06:30:10Z H4ns: White_Flame: the common solution is to initialize the variables with explicit calls rather than relying on macro side effects, which are not guaranteed.
2016-09-27T06:31:15Z White_Flame: when things are inside macrolet, it's hard to inject top-level initializations
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2016-09-27T06:33:07Z H4ns: in clojure, where there is no clearly defined loading semantics, i'm doing such things by putting the initializations into a separate file, from the macroexpansion code.  it is ugly, but works well.
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2016-09-27T06:33:51Z White_Flame: this stuff is all DSL based.  As the DSL run through declarations, it basically builds up a symbol table in the hashtable, which the runtime wants access to
2016-09-27T06:34:08Z White_Flame: and that's local to some particular body, not toplevel stuff
2016-09-27T06:34:27Z White_Flame: the simple hack was to have the build script rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/ ;)
2016-09-27T06:34:29Z H4ns: right. if you can live with the compile-time cost, you can construct and maintain a separate file to contain that symbol table.
2016-09-27T06:34:51Z White_Flame: that would mean the DSL isn't self-contained, though
2016-09-27T06:35:31Z White_Flame: and wouldn't be EVAL'able at runtime, to build up from new source code
2016-09-27T06:36:41Z H4ns: not having thought it through, did you look at LOAD-TIME-VALUE?
2016-09-27T06:37:10Z White_Flame: the code's a hairball, that will be rewritten at some point here, but I'm not sure how that would interact with macro-time values
2016-09-27T06:38:49Z White_Flame: but really, I think the solution is to convert the hashtable into an a-list and inject it in the source somewhere.  For cases where you're talking about a well-defined scope, you can do that at the end.  But for the general case where you have toplevel macro uses scattered across files, there's no "end" to easily trigger a table output
2016-09-27T06:39:20Z White_Flame: though at least there you can do toplevel stuff that does runtime registration
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2016-09-27T06:39:35Z H4ns: with LOAD-TIME-VALUE, you don't depend on toplevelness
2016-09-27T06:40:22Z H4ns: so it could what you need to fix your bug without refactoring.
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2016-09-27T06:42:11Z White_Flame: yeah, maybe
2016-09-27T06:42:25Z White_Flame: though it's going to be rewritten anyway
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2016-09-27T07:50:36Z svetlyak40wt: Guys, is there a library in common lisp, which measures code execution speed, reliably. In python we have "timeit" which runs a snipped thousands or millions times and calculates single iteration length. I almost wrote a similar macro for CL, but wondering if there is already such system?
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2016-09-27T07:52:39Z Bike: your implementation probably has a profiling facility
2016-09-27T07:52:57Z Bike: failing that there's the simple cl:time
2016-09-27T07:54:07Z H4ns: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/tools/metering/0.html might also be of interest
2016-09-27T07:55:09Z H4ns: metering is also available in quicklisp
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2016-09-27T08:16:49Z svetlyak40wt: cl:time measures only a single execution
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2016-09-27T08:17:13Z fe[nl]ix: svetlyak40wt: so measure a loop
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2016-09-27T08:24:16Z svetlyak40wt: H4ns Thank you for the link to "metering"
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2016-09-27T09:37:14Z OxOO: I would like recommendedations on Monospace fonts for use in terminals in general and for scripting/programming. My favourite so far is "Droid Sans Mono" (wish slashed zeros version). Open source ttf fonts would be great but I am also interested in closed source/fonts I have to buy. I'm just after the best monotype fonts for computer screen shell usage. so please just list some of your favourites
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2016-09-27T09:41:37Z Grue`: Microsoft font Consolas is pretty good
2016-09-27T09:41:57Z loke: I use Consolas Regular.
2016-09-27T09:42:00Z loke: In my terminals
2016-09-27T09:42:28Z loke: In Emacs I use Source Code Pro
2016-09-27T09:42:49Z Grue`: Ubuntu Mono is pretty good too, imo
2016-09-27T09:43:29Z loke: Wow. Some good examples here:
2016-09-27T09:43:29Z jackdaniel: this question is better suited for #lispcafe I believe :)
2016-09-27T09:43:32Z loke: https://wildlyinaccurate.com/worst-fonts-for-programming/
2016-09-27T09:44:09Z ecraven: you know, comic sans isn't so bad, compared to the others
2016-09-27T09:44:40Z jackdaniel: MonoComicSans :)
2016-09-27T09:45:09Z ecraven: wow, *no* google hits for mono comic sans
2016-09-27T09:45:30Z ecraven: hm.. whatever I was looking at right there, wasn't google
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2016-09-27T09:46:55Z raydeejay: Comic Sans is a font designed for *children*!
2016-09-27T09:47:16Z loke: Brush Script for programming looks pretty nice.
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2016-09-27T10:04:21Z myrkraverk: Am I the only one left who still uses terminus?
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2016-09-27T10:06:38Z _death: I use terminus as well
2016-09-27T10:06:51Z jackdaniel: me either
2016-09-27T10:07:05Z _death: https://i.imgur.com/YWYcb3a.png
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2016-09-27T10:07:28Z raydeejay: love the productivity tool bottom right
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2016-09-27T10:09:05Z z0d: Consolas here
2016-09-27T10:10:11Z raydeejay: ← DejaVu Sans
2016-09-27T10:10:36Z z0d: Comic Sans is the most reable among https://wildlyinaccurate.com/worst-fonts-for-programming/
2016-09-27T10:10:42Z z0d: by far
2016-09-27T10:11:13Z raydeejay: because it was designed for children! it's meant to be readable
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2016-09-27T10:16:19Z myrkraverk: I thought it was designed by children.
2016-09-27T10:16:42Z raydeejay: that, I know not
2016-09-27T10:19:57Z loke: Comic Sans was not made to be readable.
2016-09-27T10:20:12Z loke: It was designed for the Microsoft Comic Chat which was a UI for IRC.
2016-09-27T10:20:24Z loke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Comic_Chat
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2016-09-27T10:22:05Z raydeejay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_Sans on the other hand mentions children and the font being used later for Comic Chat
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2016-09-27T10:35:45Z Josh_2: How do you convert from hex values into binary or decimal?
2016-09-27T10:35:49Z Josh_2: Can I do it in format?
2016-09-27T10:36:10Z beach: Josh_2: There is no such thing as a "hex value".
2016-09-27T10:36:14Z beach: Just integers.
2016-09-27T10:36:20Z Josh_2: O well there goes that then :P
2016-09-27T10:36:26Z jackdaniel: (let ((*print-base* 16)) (print 13))
2016-09-27T10:37:00Z beach: Josh_2: You can print it in the base of your choice.
2016-09-27T10:37:23Z Josh_2: Well that works good for me
2016-09-27T10:37:32Z jackdaniel: if you want to type values in hex, you may use #x reader macro, for instance: #xFFAA
2016-09-27T10:37:42Z beach: clhs ~r
2016-09-27T10:37:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cba.htm
2016-09-27T10:37:47Z beach: clhs ~d
2016-09-27T10:37:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbb.htm
2016-09-27T10:37:55Z beach: clhs ~b
2016-09-27T10:37:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbc.htm
2016-09-27T10:38:32Z beach: Josh_2: Those ↑ URLs should do it.
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2016-09-27T10:40:08Z Josh_2: I was looking at those in PCL however I didn't see anything about converting hex to binary
2016-09-27T10:40:19Z myrkraverk: I use #x all the time, to type in my hexes.
2016-09-27T10:40:58Z beach: Josh_2: There is no such thing as a hexadecimal number internally.  Hexadecimal, decimal, binary, etc, are just printed representations.
2016-09-27T10:41:22Z beach: Josh_2: Printed representation of numbers is not what is used internally for calculations.
2016-09-27T10:42:04Z Josh_2: Well printed representations work fine for me as long as I get the correct answer
2016-09-27T10:42:22Z _death: (defun convert (string from-base to-base) (write-to-string (parse-integer string :radix from-base) :base to-base))
2016-09-27T10:42:43Z Grue`: Josh_2: if your numbers are in form of strings, (parse-integer "abcd" :radix 16)
2016-09-27T10:42:55Z myrkraverk: I've finished all the cr.yp.to lectures I could find -- so are there any other podcasts, or lectures, I might find interesting while waiting?
2016-09-27T10:43:19Z myrkraverk: Lisp, crypto, programming, emacs; almost anything goes.
2016-09-27T10:43:33Z _death: myrkraverk: cryptopals is instructive
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2016-09-27T10:43:43Z myrkraverk: _death: do they have lectures?
2016-09-27T10:43:46Z myrkraverk: I didn't see that.
2016-09-27T10:43:53Z _death: myrkraverk: no, just "challenges"
2016-09-27T10:44:20Z myrkraverk: Oh yeah -- I'm now looking for "waiting in airport" stuff to put on my phone.
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2016-09-27T10:45:05Z Munksgaard: Surely, there must be a lisp interpreter for android? ;)
2016-09-27T10:45:28Z myrkraverk: Munksgaard: There is -- ECL, part of Maxima for Android.
2016-09-27T10:45:35Z beach: There might be only compilers. :)
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2016-09-27T10:46:14Z myrkraverk: And I can "probably" use it, to code lisp, while in the airport, but I was really just looking for something to listen to.
2016-09-27T10:46:37Z myrkraverk: Doing the crypto challenges in Maxima might be fun too.
2016-09-27T10:47:31Z Josh_2: When I use lognot on #x18 I do not get the correct answer
2016-09-27T10:48:08Z _death: seems by "correct" you mean "what I expect".. maybe you should change your expectations
2016-09-27T10:48:21Z Josh_2: No, we did it manually on paper
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2016-09-27T10:48:24Z flip214: myrkraverk: seen SICP video lectures?
2016-09-27T10:48:34Z myrkraverk: flip214: Yes, the old ones.
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2016-09-27T10:48:46Z jackdaniel: yes, ECL works on Android - there are builts of Maxima (both graphical and textual)
2016-09-27T10:48:52Z flip214: oh, okay
2016-09-27T10:49:14Z flip214: myrkraverk: how about http://www.cornell.edu/video/playlist/nima-arkani-hamed-on-future-of-fundamental-physics ?
2016-09-27T10:49:37Z beach: Josh_2: Are you going to tell us what you got and what you expected?
2016-09-27T10:49:49Z myrkraverk: flip214: At least it's something I can (attempt to) download.
2016-09-27T10:50:49Z flip214: myrkraverk: not a video, but how about the various stories from http://compellingsciencefiction.com/?
2016-09-27T10:51:04Z flip214: already at issue 3, so quite bit of fun in there
2016-09-27T10:51:18Z _death: myrkraverk: do you know poc||gtfo?
2016-09-27T10:51:28Z Josh_2: Yeah the lognot of #x18 should be 231 in decimel
2016-09-27T10:51:45Z beach: Josh_2: The lognot of a positive number is negative
2016-09-27T10:51:57Z Josh_2: Not when you you are working with 8 bit binary numbers
2016-09-27T10:52:19Z beach: Josh_2: Common Lisp does not use 8-bit numbers.
2016-09-27T10:52:26Z Josh_2: O :O
2016-09-27T10:52:33Z beach: It uses numbers with arbitrary precision.
2016-09-27T10:52:35Z Josh_2: Don't let my friends see that
2016-09-27T10:52:58Z _death: logandc2 may be your friend
2016-09-27T10:53:08Z beach: Josh_2: #x18 is ....0000011000  The lognot of that is ...1111100111 which is -25.
2016-09-27T10:53:51Z Josh_2: The hex value of #x18 in 8bit is 0001 1000
2016-09-27T10:54:03Z beach: Josh_2: Common Lisp does not use 8-bit numbers.
2016-09-27T10:54:05Z Josh_2: IYep
2016-09-27T10:54:09Z Josh_2: Is
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2016-09-27T10:54:18Z Josh_2: Is there a library that lets me do it?
2016-09-27T10:54:40Z beach: (logand -24 #xff)
2016-09-27T10:54:41Z Grue`: (mod (lognot #x18) 256) -> 231
2016-09-27T10:54:43Z myrkraverk: _death: nope.
2016-09-27T10:54:51Z _death: myrkraverk: check it out then ;)
2016-09-27T10:55:02Z beach: Oops, I meant -25 of course.
2016-09-27T10:55:20Z Josh_2: Well that works myrkraverk thanks :D
2016-09-27T10:55:25Z myrkraverk: _death: do you have a link for me?  I'm behind the Great Firewall of China.
2016-09-27T10:55:33Z _death: myrkraverk: https://www.alchemistowl.org/pocorgtfo/
2016-09-27T10:56:02Z myrkraverk: thanks
2016-09-27T10:56:40Z _death: strange that they have 0x10 follow 0x09
2016-09-27T10:57:14Z myrkraverk: Yeah.
2016-09-27T10:57:26Z myrkraverk: You could file a bug report.
2016-09-27T10:57:36Z myrkraverk: Tell them they have 5 missing lectures
2016-09-27T10:57:51Z myrkraverk: err, journals
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2016-09-27T11:04:30Z edgar-rft: Josh_2: see <https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node132.html> for CL bit-and-byte manipulation
2016-09-27T11:11:35Z Josh_2: edgar-rft: I just need to perform logic gate functions on binary numbers
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2016-09-27T11:17:18Z flip214: myrkraverk: shouldn't that be 6 missing?
2016-09-27T11:17:43Z myrkraverk: a, b, c, d, e, f == yes, six missing.
2016-09-27T11:18:36Z flip214: well, there's always the famous 42... "what do you get if you..."
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2016-09-27T11:49:39Z vauban: Is it possible to make a resizable and adjustable array with two dimensions?
2016-09-27T11:49:50Z vauban: i.e: with array = (make-array 1 1 :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t)
2016-09-27T11:50:05Z _death: dimensions should be a list
2016-09-27T11:51:02Z vauban: thanks
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2016-09-27T11:53:57Z flip214: I believe with more than 1 dimension there's no fill-pointer anymore
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2016-09-27T12:09:19Z sjl: clhs print-object
2016-09-27T12:09:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm
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2016-09-27T12:09:52Z sjl: anyone know why redefining print-object for a built-in class (hash-table in my case) would work in sbcl and not abcl?
2016-09-27T12:10:20Z sjl: the spec doesn't specifically mention what should happen if you redefine an existing method for it, I guess...
2016-09-27T12:10:48Z Xach: sjl: consequences are undefined for built-in classes
2016-09-27T12:11:46Z Xach: sjl: http://l1sp.org/cl/11.1.2.1.2 clause 19
2016-09-27T12:12:13Z sjl: ah
2016-09-27T12:12:15Z sjl: there it is
2016-09-27T12:12:35Z sjl: tucked away in a section with five section numbers
2016-09-27T12:12:37Z sjl: lol
2016-09-27T12:12:59Z _death: you may have better luck utilizing the pprint dispatch table
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2016-09-27T12:13:53Z Xach has 11.1.2.1.2 burned into his mind
2016-09-27T12:14:29Z sjl: I can just call the printing function when I need it, it's fine.  shouldn't need it too often (I hope)
2016-09-27T12:14:49Z flip214: sjl: you can always define your own method, that in most cases falls back to PRINT-OBJECT...
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2016-09-27T12:15:13Z flip214: and only has methods for your own classes
2016-09-27T12:15:18Z sjl: flip214: that wouldn't automatically work at the repl though
2016-09-27T12:15:24Z sjl: right?
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2016-09-27T12:15:41Z flip214: modify your REPL ;)
2016-09-27T12:15:57Z sjl: sometimes I want to poke at functions that use hash tables and see what's actually IN them when they return
2016-09-27T12:16:08Z sjl: hah, I'll just type (print-hash-table *)
2016-09-27T12:16:16Z _death: clhs set-pprint-dispatch
2016-09-27T12:16:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_pp.htm
2016-09-27T12:16:18Z flip214: (LOOP FOR e = (READ) do (MY-PRINT (EVAL e))
2016-09-27T12:16:29Z sjl: I was just wondering why sbcl did what I wanted and abcl didn't
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2016-09-27T12:19:57Z Xach: implementation freeeeeeedom
2016-09-27T12:20:48Z Xach: I don't know a ton about abcl, but I think a larger percentage of it is written in not-lisp (java) than sbcl's not-lisp percentage.
2016-09-27T12:21:09Z Xach: So maybe that is implemented on the java side on abcl
2016-09-27T12:22:29Z _death: sjl: also, I just use the inspector for that
2016-09-27T12:22:52Z _death: C-c I *
2016-09-27T12:23:11Z Xach: I had a :dump repl generic function for a little while but didn't use it enough to carry it from .sbclrc to .sbclrc
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2016-09-27T12:43:48Z myrkraverk: I thought the SBCL guys were going to dump the non-lisp parts of SBCL, but I'm not sure.
2016-09-27T12:44:54Z Grue`: there are always non-lisp parts, unless your entire OS is written in lisp
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2016-09-27T12:47:53Z myrkraverk: Well, you don't need a runtime written in non-lisp if you can still define-alien-function.
2016-09-27T12:48:05Z myrkraverk: To interface with the OS.
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2016-09-27T12:55:02Z scymtym: the os interface usually depends on things like preprocessor macros and memory layouts of structs. those make a pure-lisp solution difficult
2016-09-27T12:56:38Z attila_lendvai: while that's true the SBCL runtime has considerably more in C than just the necessary glue code
2016-09-27T12:57:24Z z0d: performance reasons?
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2016-09-27T12:58:35Z fe[nl]ix: scymtym: all it takes is some manual work
2016-09-27T12:58:46Z fe[nl]ix: annoying but possible
2016-09-27T12:59:29Z fe[nl]ix: the Go devs have done it, Go doesn't link to libc normally
2016-09-27T13:00:01Z scymtym: fe[nl]ix: do they make the syscalls themselves?
2016-09-27T13:00:07Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2016-09-27T13:00:15Z attila_lendvai: z0d: I think it's more about debuggability... e.g. having the GC in C is orders of magnitude easier to debug.
2016-09-27T13:00:25Z fe[nl]ix: attila_lendvai: no it's not
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2016-09-27T13:00:36Z attila_lendvai would assume
2016-09-27T13:00:58Z fe[nl]ix: not unless you have the a Lisp debugger that doesn't cons
2016-09-27T13:00:58Z _death: still has assembly code..
2016-09-27T13:01:09Z fe[nl]ix: otherwise if the GC is broken you can't debug it
2016-09-27T13:01:17Z fe[nl]ix: whereas with C, GDB is an external process
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2016-09-27T13:01:49Z attila_lendvai: well, that's my point. if system critical parts are in lisp, then they better not fail, or you better have a means to run a lisp-in-lisp to debug them.
2016-09-27T13:03:00Z scymtym: i wouldn't mind the C code if more of it was generated. in particular the gc tables
2016-09-27T13:03:27Z fe[nl]ix: "they better not fail" is not a very practical assumption
2016-09-27T13:04:10Z fe[nl]ix: Franz have done it, so kudos to them, but it's very difficult
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2016-09-27T13:04:39Z attila_lendvai: and lisp-in-lisp, or other such tricks are not common knowledge, so I guess that's why sticking to the host's language was chosen as a least resistance
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2016-09-27T13:18:01Z fe[nl]ix: scymtym: https://github.com/xach/cmucl-direct-syscalls/blob/master/src/compiler/x86/syscall-linux.lisp
2016-09-27T13:18:25Z fe[nl]ix: feel free to convert that to SBCL/x86_64
2016-09-27T13:18:27Z fe[nl]ix: :)
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2016-09-27T13:19:17Z attila_lendvai: there's also cffi/c2ffi, which does a pretty good job (except inline functions in .h files, and of course C macros)
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2016-09-27T13:19:42Z attila_lendvai: https://github.com/attila-lendvai/hu.dwim.sdl is an example of its application
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2016-09-27T13:23:00Z flip214: LET'S BUILD A LISP MACHINE!!!              -- yet another one?? ;)
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2016-09-27T13:23:48Z z0d: Emacs is probably the closest you can get to a modernish Lisp Machine-like stuff
2016-09-27T13:24:23Z myrkraverk: attila_lendvai: Just CFFI libclang, and then use that to read source files.
2016-09-27T13:24:34Z myrkraverk: Or would that be cheating?
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2016-09-27T13:25:27Z attila_lendvai: myrkraverk: IOW, reimplement c2ffi in lisp. I didn't write c2ffi and it works fine for my purposes (only library authors need to run it, not the users)
2016-09-27T13:26:18Z myrkraverk: attila_lendvai: Maybe, but quite possible you can get C macros and other stuff with it -- of course, if you can use c2ffi, you don't need it.
2016-09-27T13:27:13Z attila_lendvai: myrkraverk: does libclang have an exposed C_eval() function?
2016-09-27T13:27:53Z myrkraverk: AFAIC, no, it's only gives you access to parsing data -- you'd probably need C++ code for C_eval().
2016-09-27T13:27:56Z attila_lendvai: FTR, what c2ffi does is that it generates an intermediate C file that assign the value of #define's to variables that it reads afterwards
2016-09-27T13:28:05Z myrkraverk: libclang is the C interface (stable) to clang.
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2016-09-27T13:31:11Z rpg: jasom: Saw your posts last night -- another reason to avoid yacc-like parsing is that by the time you are done, you have often transformed the grammar from a nice, declarative object into a confusing, snarly mess.
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2016-09-27T13:31:43Z rpg: Which means maintenance of the parser, or changing the language can be quite hard.
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2016-09-27T14:47:05Z Xach: attila_lendvai: i am having some problems with hu.dwim.sdl
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2016-09-27T14:53:07Z drmeister: rpg: What parser do you recommend?
2016-09-27T14:53:07Z drmeister: I'm always up for new experiences.
2016-09-27T14:53:07Z myrkraverk: Btw, I found this, for podcasts on security: http://in-security.org/
2016-09-27T14:53:07Z myrkraverk: So hopefully it's not too boring, and I'll have something to listen to, while standing in queues.
2016-09-27T14:53:08Z drmeister: I'm generally dissatisfied with the "yacc" experience.
2016-09-27T14:53:09Z beach: drmeister: I recommend using combinator parsing from SMUG.
2016-09-27T14:53:41Z drmeister: Hi beach - could you remind me what SMUG is?
2016-09-27T14:54:01Z drmeister: https://github.com/drewc/smug
2016-09-27T14:54:04Z beach: I library providing a combinator parsing framework.
2016-09-27T14:54:16Z _death: I like esrap
2016-09-27T14:54:16Z beach: It is quite well documented too.
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2016-09-27T14:58:05Z drmeister: Is this the one you mean?   https://github.com/drewc/smug
2016-09-27T14:58:14Z beach: Yes.
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2016-09-27T15:00:22Z drmeister: Ok, I went to make a note in Evernote and I found one that I created some time ago.
2016-09-27T15:00:24Z drmeister: (sigh)
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2016-09-27T15:02:45Z drmeister: What do you call a scripting "language" that isn't a real language? Is there a term for a bunch of commands strung together in a file?
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2016-09-27T15:02:59Z jasperJowls: batch file
2016-09-27T15:03:40Z beaky: job control language?
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2016-09-27T15:04:17Z Grue`: it's still a real language, imo
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2016-09-27T15:04:29Z drmeister: Great - thanks. I have a batch syntax that I developed 25 years ago that I need to write a parser for. I hacked something together with the reader and readtables but it's flakey.
2016-09-27T15:04:35Z Grue`: a language doesn't necessarily need to be turing complete
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2016-09-27T15:05:24Z Grue`: did it have a parser 25 years ago?
2016-09-27T15:05:38Z drmeister: I thought it did need to be Turing complete to be called a language.
2016-09-27T15:05:56Z beach: Nope.
2016-09-27T15:06:08Z drmeister: Yes it did have a yacc parser in c
2016-09-27T15:06:52Z beach: drmeister: The only reasonable definition of "language" is from computer science, it is just a set of words from some alphabet.
2016-09-27T15:06:57Z drmeister: Ok - so there's language and then there is turing complete language. I'm hip.
2016-09-27T15:07:20Z myrkraverk: drmeister: are you doing the dr evil dance too?
2016-09-27T15:07:44Z drmeister: I'm afraid I'd break a hip.
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2016-09-27T15:10:37Z drmeister is actually quite fit - but he leaves the dancing to his daughter and her crazy "DanceDanceRevolution".
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2016-09-27T15:11:28Z myrkraverk: I like DDR -- I just don't have any of my stuff in my current country.
2016-09-27T15:11:58Z myrkraverk: Hopefully I can fix that some day.
2016-09-27T15:12:07Z myrkraverk: And code my DDR in Lisp c;
2016-09-27T15:12:44Z attila_lendvai: Xach: give me some pointers and I'll look at it
2016-09-27T15:13:08Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-09-27/failure-report/hu.dwim.sdl.html#hu.dwim.sdl
2016-09-27T15:13:08Z attila_lendvai: Xach: also note that I've pushed a change a couple of hours ago that fixes package redefinition warnings
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2016-09-27T15:13:43Z Xach: attila_lendvai: oh, ok. i think that was it.
2016-09-27T15:13:49Z attila_lendvai: Xach: yep, that may be fixed already
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2016-09-27T15:14:25Z attila_lendvai: I switched to uiop:define-package. it should solve those issues, but I have little experience with it.
2016-09-27T15:15:27Z Xach: hmm, I seem to get the same problem
2016-09-27T15:15:39Z Xach: Did you update the quicklisp branch?
2016-09-27T15:16:41Z attila_lendvai checks
2016-09-27T15:17:10Z scymtym_: drmeister: do you have a link to the yacc grammar and some examples?
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2016-09-27T15:17:41Z attila_lendvai: Xach: yes. this is the patch we're hoping to fix it: "use uiop:define-package to avoid already-exported warnings."
2016-09-27T15:18:52Z drmeister: scymtym_: Hmm, that's kind of out of my hands.   It's part of Ambertools16  - http://ambermd.org/#AmberTools
2016-09-27T15:19:12Z drmeister: It's free but you have to register (it's not my site).
2016-09-27T15:20:07Z attila_lendvai: Xach: let me know whether you have that patch, and if you do then I'll dig deeper.
2016-09-27T15:20:21Z Xach: attila_lendvai: i have that patch. the error is in one of the generated files, it seems.
2016-09-27T15:20:22Z drmeister: Examples look like this:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/591317a0981e28da5d91773794430b11
2016-09-27T15:20:37Z Xach: sdl.x86_64-pc-linux-gnu.lisp is generated, i think?
2016-09-27T15:20:56Z drmeister: It's got commands, variable assignment, lists and comments.
2016-09-27T15:21:07Z attila_lendvai: Xach: you're right, I was blind... looking.
2016-09-27T15:21:34Z scymtym_: drmeister: thanks, i will have a look
2016-09-27T15:21:45Z raydeejay: drmeister: argh... the braces...
2016-09-27T15:22:09Z drmeister: The "tricky" part is that commands at #\newline except lists can span multiple lines.
2016-09-27T15:22:25Z drmeister: s/commands at/commands end at/
2016-09-27T15:22:36Z drmeister: raydeejay: What can I say?  I was young and foolish.
2016-09-27T15:23:02Z drmeister: If I could go back in time and change the file formats that I invented in my youth... I would.
2016-09-27T15:23:17Z scymtym_: drmeister: i have something like that newline thing in my python parser
2016-09-27T15:25:04Z myrkraverk: drmeister: you can alwasy make a translator.
2016-09-27T15:25:33Z drmeister: Who of us don't desperately want to turn back the hands of time and tell our foolish, younger selves about S-expressions?
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2016-09-27T15:26:46Z drmeister: I need to write a parser in Common Lisp that will read these old files, including ones that are written by other people.
2016-09-27T15:28:06Z raydeejay: do you have anything like a grammar?
2016-09-27T15:28:13Z drmeister: I need to give Cando a mode where it looks like the program "Leap" that I wrote 25 years ago.  It turns out that I have thousands of users who will appreciate this.
2016-09-27T15:28:39Z raydeejay: (on a tangentially related note, I just found out that apparently I invented multimarkdown (too))
2016-09-27T15:28:50Z scymtym_: drmeister: if you don't mind, i will have a go at it real quick (i like writing parsers)
2016-09-27T15:29:47Z drmeister: raydeejay: I do - I'll claim "fair use" here.
2016-09-27T15:29:48Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/8048971c4810f187fef76f2cf527f74d
2016-09-27T15:30:21Z drmeister: Ignore the comments at the top - they are out of date. (sigh)
2016-09-27T15:30:34Z drmeister: No commas and no semi-colons
2016-09-27T15:30:39Z raydeejay: well if you already have the grammar, it's cobbling up together time
2016-09-27T15:31:31Z raydeejay has only written a rudimentary parser, don't ask which kind
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2016-09-27T15:31:52Z raydeejay: I'm sure it was recursive something :)
2016-09-27T15:34:26Z myrkraverk: My only nontrivial stuff has been done with (b)yacc and (re)flex.
2016-09-27T15:34:45Z scymtym_: drmeister: AmberTools/src/leap/src/leap/parser.y?
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2016-09-27T15:34:57Z drmeister: That's the one.
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2016-09-27T15:37:12Z drmeister: You are not seriously going to write me a parser are you?  That's way to much to ask.  Just pointing me to the parsing library and give me some direction when I come up with confused questions. That would be most helpful.
2016-09-27T15:38:37Z scymtym_: well, as i said i like writing parsers and throwing esrap at new problems (i currently maintain it)
2016-09-27T15:39:15Z drmeister: scymtym_: That being said, an example that I care about would be most helpful.
2016-09-27T15:39:28Z beaky: how do i write parsers
2016-09-27T15:39:59Z scymtym_: let's see how far i can get without taking too much time
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2016-09-27T15:40:09Z myrkraverk: beaky: I did it this way, sort of: find a library/tool you want to use, and then go through the tutorial or books if there is one.
2016-09-27T15:40:24Z beaky: ah
2016-09-27T15:40:34Z myrkraverk: Fortunately (or unfortunately) there's ton of stuff available for yacc/lex.
2016-09-27T15:40:54Z myrkraverk: However, I wouldn't use it in a new project unless C was a requirement.
2016-09-27T15:40:56Z beaky: i thoguht yacc/lex was for writing c parsers rather than lisp parsers?
2016-09-27T15:41:01Z myrkraverk: And even then I'd look at alternatives.
2016-09-27T15:41:06Z raydeejay: the other way around
2016-09-27T15:41:10Z raydeejay: it's for writing parsers in C
2016-09-27T15:41:28Z beaky: ooh
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2016-09-27T15:45:40Z jasom: drmeister: I had no idea that there were thousands of users of computational chemistry software
2016-09-27T15:46:03Z drmeister: There are more than 10,000 sites that download Ambertools.
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2016-09-27T15:46:30Z jasom: wow
2016-09-27T15:46:35Z drmeister: And more than 1,000 commercial licenses for Amber.  These are numbers that I recently obtained for a grant proposal that I'm writing.
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2016-09-27T15:47:53Z jasom: scymtym_: did I show you my sh parser in esrap?
2016-09-27T15:49:32Z scymtym_: jasom: yes, we talked about it before
2016-09-27T15:49:38Z scymtym_: plush, was it?
2016-09-27T15:49:59Z jasom: yup, plush; I can't remember who I've talked to about what.
2016-09-27T15:50:14Z jasom: I probably didn't know you were the esrap maintainer when we talked.
2016-09-27T15:52:03Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I've pushed to cffi, hu.dwim.sdl and .bluez (the quicklisp branch of the latter two needs pull --force, sorry about that!)
2016-09-27T15:52:28Z raydeejay: bah... now I want to write a parser, you evil lot
2016-09-27T15:54:33Z jasom: drmeister: the one thing to be careful with esrap is that it can't handle left-recursion, so for example the sh grammar entry: "list : list separator_op and_or | and_or" has to be changed to use right recursion like this: https://github.com/jasom/plush/blob/master/plush-parser.lisp#L1102
2016-09-27T15:55:15Z jasom: which is more like "list : and_or (separator_op and_or)*"
2016-09-27T15:55:15Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: I would be happy if you separated the code to parse a command line, into its own library :)
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2016-09-27T15:55:38Z scymtym_: jasom: it can handle left-recursion in many cases (unless i misunderstand what you mean)
2016-09-27T15:56:03Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: with or without aliasing support? Alias expansion requires retokenizing in sh
2016-09-27T15:56:04Z drmeister: All using the Leap program I wrote 25 years ago and it hasn't been changed much since then.  I'm guessing because modifying a complex program with manual memory management without breaking anything is difficult.
2016-09-27T15:56:10Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: several projects I know need proper parsing, including cffi and iolib
2016-09-27T15:56:27Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: plus it is pure sh, so bashisims are not supported
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2016-09-27T15:56:47Z myrkraverk: fe[nl]ix: as I mentioned earlier, for c parsing things, I'd personally use libclang.
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2016-09-27T15:57:19Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: no alias, just handling double & single quotes and escapes POSIXly
2016-09-27T15:57:21Z jasom: scymtym_: perhaps it was smug that couldn't do it then
2016-09-27T15:57:23Z drmeister: Chemistry software is especially tricky because it uses a lot of bidirectional graphs.
2016-09-27T15:57:25Z myrkraverk: Making bindings for libclang is not hard -- I've done it for elisp.
2016-09-27T15:57:48Z HeyFlash: It must be funny to discover all of a sudden that thousands of people use software you wrote 25 years ago.
2016-09-27T15:58:22Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I'll be heading out soonish. let me know if I should wait for a few more minutes to address any possible further headaches.
2016-09-27T15:58:32Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: HERE documents and aliases are the two hard parts.  I'm not sure if I should be proud or ashamed of how plush handles HERE docs.
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2016-09-27T15:58:40Z myrkraverk: HeyFlash: I once had that realization -- I thought the emacs window-number-mode had like one or two users, but apparently there are lots more (I wrote it 12 years ago though)
2016-09-27T15:58:49Z Xach: attila_lendvai: you updated cffi?
2016-09-27T15:59:04Z Xach: attila_lendvai: is that update critical to the hu.dwim updates?
2016-09-27T15:59:17Z attila_lendvai: Xach: yes, it's a small fix. if you didn't hit it, you don't need the update either.
2016-09-27T15:59:20Z fe[nl]ix: at some ECLM long time ago antifuchs was presenting the classic CLIM, with some original example programs
2016-09-27T15:59:33Z Xach: attila_lendvai: ok. everything looks good to me now.
2016-09-27T15:59:44Z Xach: attila_lendvai: i won't get the cffi change until 0.17.2 or whatever the new version is
2016-09-27T15:59:48Z fe[nl]ix: and Scott McKay was in the back of the room, and said "whoa, I wrote that. it was my first project at Symbolics"
2016-09-27T15:59:54Z fe[nl]ix: or something like that
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2016-09-27T16:00:18Z attila_lendvai: Xach: you probably don't yet have the patch that broke it (it got committed into cffi master a few days ago)
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2016-09-27T16:01:45Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: I need that for when users set $CC or $CFLAGS, and I need to parse anything that variable can legitimately contain, so no heredocs needed
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2016-09-27T16:10:58Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: so just word-splitting?  do you care about $() or ``?
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2016-09-27T16:12:03Z jasom: if that's the case, it's almost trivial.  Really just lexing rather than parsing.
2016-09-27T16:12:04Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: nope, just correct splitting
2016-09-27T16:12:56Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/plush/blob/master/plush-parser.lisp#L1102 with *preserve-words-as-tokens* set to true
2016-09-27T16:13:17Z fe[nl]ix: putting that into a library named os-utils or something like that ?
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2016-09-27T16:14:02Z fe[nl]ix: eventually somebody will contribute Windows support, hopefully
2016-09-27T16:14:03Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/plush/blob/master/plush-parser.lisp#L345 <-- even better I already have something
2016-09-27T16:14:13Z fe[nl]ix: though I don't care much now
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2016-09-27T16:15:24Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: the parsing is already in a separate package (but in one system)
2016-09-27T16:16:53Z fe[nl]ix: that's it, I can't have iolib depend on plush because of circularity
2016-09-27T16:16:59Z jasom: right
2016-09-27T16:17:09Z fe[nl]ix: and I think luis would oppose adding that dep to CFFI :)
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2016-09-27T16:17:42Z jasom: and it requires the plush package right now as it parses into forms that are EVAL-able, including symbols in the plush package.
2016-09-27T16:19:28Z jasom: if I switched to keywords and then just did a subst to change all the symbols in plush, I could remove that dependency.
2016-09-27T16:23:16Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: I'll put decoupling the parser from the implementation on my todo list
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2016-09-27T16:30:55Z scymtym_: drmeister: successfully parsed the example :)
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2016-09-27T16:31:47Z drmeister: Holy crap dude - that's awesome. Am I going to have to take "Develop a Leap-like mode for Cando" out of the specific aims?
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2016-09-27T16:32:31Z drmeister: If you could - could you paste it to me?
2016-09-27T16:32:40Z scymtym_: i don't know. what i have is very basic, though
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2016-09-27T16:36:34Z drmeister: Please add your name (or email it to me) so I can give attribution.
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2016-09-27T16:37:31Z scymtym_: regarding the aims, i mean
2016-09-27T16:37:32Z scymtym_: let me clean up just a little bit before pasting
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2016-09-27T16:50:00Z Grue`: just another way to kill my website accidentally
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2016-09-27T16:51:24Z Grue`: usually I do ,disconnect but this time its REPL got stuck for some reason and I tried another method
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2016-09-27T16:51:27Z scymtym__: drmeister: http://techfak.de/~jmoringe/leap-parser.tar.gz
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2016-09-27T16:52:25Z scymtym__: wait. did i mess up the archive?
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2016-09-27T16:53:12Z scymtym__: yeah, sorry. let me redo that
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2016-09-27T16:56:32Z scymtym__: drmeister: archive should be ok now. put the stuff in dependencies/ into local-projects/. there will almost certainly be problems, feel free to get back to me in that case
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2016-09-27T16:57:22Z scymtym__: also, if you prefer plain nested lists or other some other result representation, just remove the bp:node* and builder-protocol stuff
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2016-09-27T17:45:51Z scymtym__: drmeister: i updated the archive again (in case you already downloaded it)
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2016-09-27T17:54:24Z drmeister: Thank you - I'll take a look at it tomorrow - I teach in a few hours.
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2016-09-27T17:56:43Z pipping: drmeister: perl and python were one-man projects for quite a while, right?
2016-09-27T17:56:48Z pipping: drmeister: also, vim?
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2016-09-27T18:04:19Z drmeister: pipping: Good point's - thanks.
2016-09-27T18:04:23Z drmeister: poitns
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2016-09-27T18:04:34Z drmeister: P.O.I.N.T.S
2016-09-27T18:04:34Z drmeister: argh
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2016-09-27T18:06:45Z pipping: (chris lattner and llvm maybe? although his original llvm probably just makes up 10% of the current code base)
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2016-09-27T18:08:54Z phoe: I think Lisp was originally a one-man project
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2016-09-27T18:16:55Z beaky: ello
2016-09-27T18:17:21Z beaky: is practical common lisp ( http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ ) a good book to learn lisp today? or are there more up-to-dat ebooks
2016-09-27T18:17:43Z beaky: (i like his other book 'coders at work' too btw very good)
2016-09-27T18:17:56Z H4ns: beaky: practical common lisp is still up to date. you need to learn about quicklisp externally
2016-09-27T18:18:00Z White_Flame: common lisp hasn't changed much in decades.  What has changed is the library ecosystem, so learn Common Lisp from the old respected sources, and get familiar with Quicklisp for libraries
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2016-09-27T18:18:38Z beaky: ah
2016-09-27T18:18:48Z beaky: yes i love quicklisp its aweomse
2016-09-27T18:18:59Z beaky: is it like the npm of common lisp
2016-09-27T18:19:10Z White_Flame: yep
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2016-09-27T18:19:38Z White_Flame: (in a rough sense.  npm has independent copies of local dependencies, integration with native binaries, etc)
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2016-09-27T18:22:03Z Xach: if i had a tenth of their funding...
2016-09-27T18:22:14Z Xach would have *such* a shiny gold keyboard
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2016-09-27T18:27:36Z phoe: beaky: except Xach refuses to put trivial-left-pad on quicklisp
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2016-09-27T18:28:31Z phoe: might be why quicklisp is underfunded compared to npm...
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2016-09-27T18:42:01Z mordocai: Xach also refuses to randomly break the ecosystem every 5 min. Probably another reason for lack of funding :P
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2016-09-27T18:43:11Z mordocai: Yesterday multiple npm packages stopped working due to a dependency of many of them pushing up a bad update. The only good thing is it was fixed with 30 min, but across the world builds were failing due to it and there isn't an easy way to fix your "grand-dependencies" from pulling in a new version.
2016-09-27T18:43:48Z jasom: while we're on the topic, anybody tried qlot?
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2016-09-27T18:59:04Z hellcode: mordocai: Idk about npm in particular but isn't that a bit of a secondary effect on software development? bugs?
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2016-09-27T19:00:00Z mordocai: hellcode: Well, in this case it is a symptom of the decision to allow multiple versions of the same libraries in the same program and also the general lack of testing in the culture.
2016-09-27T19:00:19Z scymtym__: drmeister: one last thing before i shut up: the code is now at https://github.com/scymtym/leap-parser but without the dependencies
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2016-09-27T19:01:03Z drmeister: scymtym__: Thank you.   I'll have a chance to take a look at it tomorrow.
2016-09-27T19:01:47Z drmeister: I give a 2.5 hour lecture tonight on nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy.
2016-09-27T19:01:53Z drmeister: They are exhausting.
2016-09-27T19:01:59Z jasom: I bet.
2016-09-27T19:02:07Z mordocai: drmeister: sounds exhausting
2016-09-27T19:02:07Z jasom originally wanted to go into solid-state physics.
2016-09-27T19:02:30Z jasom: After 3 years of physics undergrad, I burnt out.
2016-09-27T19:03:19Z jasom: It was neat having Prof. Overhauser as an advisor though.
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2016-09-27T19:03:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: mordocai: the multi-version thing is really a tricky situation
2016-09-27T19:04:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: On the one hand, you get bugs from people depending on buggy versions of a library on the other hand you get bugs from running someone's code against a version they haven't tested yet
2016-09-27T19:05:08Z mordocai: fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, and the problem with npm specifically is there isn't an easy way to say "hey, grand-dependency be version Y not X because X is broken". You have to wait for your dependency to fix their version or the grand dependency to fix the bug
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2016-09-27T19:10:33Z beaky: damn quicklisp is aweomse
2016-09-27T19:10:48Z beaky: damn i cant tpye today
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2016-09-27T19:11:41Z mordocai: beaky: Yep
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2016-09-27T19:14:59Z Cymew: Totally agree. I might even plug this thing: https://www.quicklisp.org/donations.html I have signed up myself and consider it well spent.
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2016-09-27T19:20:55Z mordocai: Yeah, the only reason i'm not donating is I hate paypal and Xach has hinted at being able to use other payment methods sometime soonish
2016-09-27T19:21:13Z Cymew: Fair enough
2016-09-27T19:21:57Z mood: There's also the donation matching that's been upcoming since March
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2016-09-27T19:27:48Z mordocai: #ecl gets very little traffic, does anyone know how to print the current directory (and change directories) in ecl?
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2016-09-27T19:29:16Z phoe: mordocai: doesn't UIOP work on ECL?
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2016-09-27T19:30:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: mordocai: lisp uses the value of *default-pathname-defaults* as the "current directory"
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2016-09-27T19:30:31Z phoe: mordocai: #'UIOP:GETCWD, #'UIOP:CHDIR
2016-09-27T19:30:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then you just use a compatibility wrapper like UIOP to handle the POSIX cwd
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2016-09-27T19:31:36Z mordocai: Kk, i'm used to using sbcl's sb-posix so I was a bit lost
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2016-09-27T19:32:45Z mordocai: Hmm... well that is somewhat disheartening. (uiop:getcwd) returns nil. I'm on android via https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ar.com.playnu.clrepl&hl=en so it might be I just don't get files.
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2016-09-27T19:33:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if it has something to do with android permissions
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2016-09-27T19:34:06Z mordocai: fiddlerwoaroof: Seems likely. I was desiring to get quicklisp in the repl but it is look like this app may not have any file access.
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2016-09-27T19:34:16Z phoe: Oh, it's android.
2016-09-27T19:34:25Z phoe: That might be troublesome, yes.
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2016-09-27T19:34:47Z mordocai: phoe: Your answer still gave me what i needed though
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2016-09-27T19:35:14Z phoe: mordocai: <3
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2016-09-27T19:35:25Z phoe: Basically, UIOP is the compatibility layer between the OS and Lisp.
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2016-09-27T19:36:01Z phoe: Used in great deal by ASDF; you might have guessed from the names.
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2016-09-27T19:36:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: We just need a QWER and a ZXCV now...
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2016-09-27T19:39:08Z mordocai: Well, apparently no file access and pasting quicklisp.lisp crashes the app so I guess this isn't going to work
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2016-09-27T19:39:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Probably no network access either
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2016-09-27T19:39:53Z mordocai: Yeah, it had no required permissions so probably just can't do anything. Oh well.
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2016-09-27T19:40:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I've tried it before
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2016-09-27T19:40:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I eventually switched to iOS because I got tired of Android's random bugginess
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2016-09-27T19:42:07Z mordocai: I actually don't have many issues and I was so excited to have CL on android. It is still useful but a lot less with no files and no network
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2016-09-27T19:42:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder how difficult it would be to get ABCL on android
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2016-09-27T19:42:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I read somewhere that there were significant limitations in Dalvik
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2016-09-27T19:44:16Z mordocai: Not sure. I'd love a full fledged common lisp repl as an app though, whatever implementation it ended up being
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2016-09-27T19:51:16Z phoe: mordocai: just a REPL?
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2016-09-27T19:51:24Z phoe: you might want to slime-connect to a remote server.
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2016-09-27T19:53:49Z mordocai: phoe: Yeah, I suppose emacs does run on android doesn't it
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2016-09-27T19:56:52Z phoe: mordocai: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsOnAndroid
2016-09-27T19:57:28Z phoe: if you have SSH, you have emacs.
2016-09-27T19:57:37Z phoe: if you have emacs, you have slime.
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2016-09-27T19:57:46Z phoe: if you have slime, you have Lisp.
2016-09-27T19:58:11Z phoe: if you have lisp, you probably need thome help with being underthtood properly.
2016-09-27T19:58:23Z Anselmo: has anyone here done much with projects using lisp with arduino,
2016-09-27T19:58:28Z Anselmo: for example http://www.ulisp.com/
2016-09-27T19:58:30Z Anselmo: ?
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2016-09-27T20:00:07Z phoe: Anselmo: all I know is the http://www.technoblogy.com/show?1GX1 article
2016-09-27T20:00:26Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: there's already an xcvb
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2016-09-27T20:01:05Z Anselmo: ooo that looks cool
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2016-09-27T20:02:48Z phoe: (defclass foo () (data (lock :accessor :initform (make-lock)
2016-09-27T20:02:51Z phoe: ;lasdjfhsdf
2016-09-27T20:02:52Z phoe: don't mind me
2016-09-27T20:02:54Z phoe: wrong window
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2016-09-27T20:03:07Z Anselmo: haha, and its using ulisp too
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2016-09-27T20:03:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: looks like it's the same guy
2016-09-27T20:04:37Z Anselmo: hmm, yup
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2016-09-27T20:07:29Z pipping: fiddlerwoaroof: there is xcvb
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2016-09-27T20:09:26Z pipping: whoops, jasom beat me to it
2016-09-27T20:10:09Z jasom: I like that xcvb makes it harder for builds to accidentally work.  Tup and nix both share that quality to one degree or another.
2016-09-27T20:10:57Z pipping: mordocai: uiop:getcwd calls ext:getcwd on ecl
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2016-09-27T20:12:33Z phoe: I have a problem with SETF.
2016-09-27T20:12:41Z phoe: And CLOS.
2016-09-27T20:12:51Z jasom: phoe: oh?
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2016-09-27T20:12:58Z phoe: Basically - I can write an accessor that calls WITH-LOCK-HELD.
2016-09-27T20:13:07Z phoe: I can write a SETFer that calls WITH-LOCK-HELD.
2016-09-27T20:13:29Z phoe: But I don't know how to write (setf (data foo) (1+ (data foo))) that will expand into something like (with-lock-held (lock foo) ...)
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2016-09-27T20:13:52Z jasom: phoe: you could with-recursive-lock?
2016-09-27T20:14:25Z phoe: jasom: > (macroexpand-1 '(setf (data foo) (1+ (data foo))))
2016-09-27T20:14:26Z phoe: (LET* ((#:FOO771 FOO) (#:NEW1 (1+ (DATA FOO)))) (FUNCALL #'(SETF DATA) #:NEW1 #:FOO771))
2016-09-27T20:14:39Z jasom: oh, that's not how setf is supposed to work
2016-09-27T20:14:55Z phoe: (defmethod (setf data) (new-value (foo foo)) (with-lock-held ((lock foo)) (setf (slot-value foo 'data) new-value)))
2016-09-27T20:15:02Z phoe: That's what my SETF expands into.
2016-09-27T20:15:18Z phoe: That LET* evaluates (DATA FOO) on a separate lock grab.
2016-09-27T20:15:27Z phoe: Other threads can grab the lock between the (DATA FOO) and the FUNCALL.
2016-09-27T20:15:32Z phoe: Which is something I don't want.
2016-09-27T20:15:40Z jasom: the whole point of setf is that it evaluates the one before the other, and only once
2016-09-27T20:16:08Z jasom: you could fairly easily write a locking-setf that works the way you want though.
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2016-09-27T20:16:53Z phoe: So basically I need to write a custom SETFlike.
2016-09-27T20:16:56Z Bike: sbcl has a cas thing that works like setf... dunno if you're supposed to use it with locks though
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2016-09-27T20:17:16Z jasom: phoe: yeah, but setf itself can be implemented in like a dozen lines of code, so not too hard
2016-09-27T20:17:44Z phoe: I know, I know - I just had the slightest hope of being able to customize SETF beyond what it's supposed to be customized like.
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2016-09-27T20:20:09Z jasom: (defmacro locking-setf (lock &rest r) `(with-lock-held (,lock) (setf ,@r)))
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2016-09-27T20:20:58Z phoe: jasom: exactly what I need.
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2016-09-27T20:21:18Z phoe: except now I need recursive locks.
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2016-09-27T20:22:01Z phoe: which I tried to avoid. I really like SBCL's paranoia when it comes to non-recursive locks.
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2016-09-27T20:28:19Z jasom: I just try to avoid locks period.
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2016-09-27T20:31:38Z phoe: And right now I'm trying to abstract them away under the condition I've made, a thread may only ever hold one lock.
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2016-09-27T20:32:19Z jasom: that's one way to prevent deadlocks
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2016-09-27T20:35:37Z mordocai: Btw, the prebuilt binary isn't working on my phone ATM but I was pointed to https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecl-android by #ecl instead of using that app on the store.
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2016-09-27T20:36:57Z jasom: phoe: what I've done in the past is have the writer never acquire the lock, but instead assert that the current thread is the holder of the lock.  Then no recursive locks are needed, but you also won't ever accidentally modify unlocked data.
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2016-09-27T21:37:09Z phoe: jasom: !
2016-09-27T21:38:20Z phoe: How do I portably check whether the current thread holds the lock? ACQUIRE-LOCK with WAIT-P set to NIL?
2016-09-27T21:38:51Z phoe: Which... has unspecified behaviour if I already hold the lock.
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2016-09-27T21:40:55Z phoe: BORDEAUX-THREADS has no function that will give me the owner of the current lock.
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2016-09-27T21:41:58Z phoe: God damn it. Time for submitting another patch.
2016-09-27T21:43:00Z _death: what you're trying to do is usually an indicator for bad design
2016-09-27T21:43:49Z phoe: _death: blame jasom, he suggested that.
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2016-09-27T21:45:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't having the thread hold the lock a problem?
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2016-09-27T21:46:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Just because you're probably then going to be holding the lock longer than necessary?
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2016-09-27T21:47:57Z jasom: phoe: just save the thread-id alongside the lock in your structure
2016-09-27T21:48:30Z jasom: phoe: or if you only have one lock you ever hold (you mentioned that) you can dynamically bind a variable to that lock and do an identity check.
2016-09-27T21:49:16Z jasom: but I agree that it is better to either have only structured modification of shared data, or even better eliminate mutable shared data.
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2016-09-27T21:52:31Z phoe: jasom: save the thread object on every lock acquisition and then do an EQ comparison of thread objects?
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2016-09-27T21:54:13Z _death: this is inherently racy when you EQ.. unless you acquired the lock, and by then the check is worthless
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2016-09-27T21:57:47Z jasom: _death: 1) acquire lock 2) save thread 3) when mutating value, check that thread = value saved in #2; 4) clear value saved in #2 5) release lock
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2016-09-27T21:58:17Z White_Flame: why would you check the value?  you hold the lock
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2016-09-27T21:58:37Z jasom: White_Flame: presumably #3 is not in th lexical scope of 1,2,4,5,
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2016-09-27T21:59:22Z White_Flame: if it's not called from within the runtime scope of the lock, then something's seriously misarchitected
2016-09-27T21:59:40Z jasom: White_Flame: you want it definitively in the dynamic scope, but that doesn't mean it's in the lexical scope.
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2016-09-27T22:00:12Z White_Flame: why not just grab the lock during mutation?  Is this supposed to be simulated software transactional memory?
2016-09-27T22:01:16Z jasom: White_Flame: consider phoe's original example: (setf (foo bar) (+1 (foo bar)); putting the lock inside the mutator for foo doesn't make the increment safe.
2016-09-27T22:01:50Z White_Flame: if mutators are separate calls from the lock, they should be assumed they're within a locked context
2016-09-27T22:02:08Z jasom: White_Flame: right, and I was providing a way of asserting at runtime that the assumption is true.
2016-09-27T22:02:14Z White_Flame: I can't understand how it would legitimately be in a non-bug case where the thread id check would fail
2016-09-27T22:02:28Z jasom: the whole point of the thread-id check is to detect bugs
2016-09-27T22:02:39Z White_Flame: ok, if it's a debugging tool then yeah I guess it makes more sense
2016-09-27T22:02:42Z jasom: yes, it's not necessary if you write bug-free code.
2016-09-27T22:03:12Z jasom: I however, do not write bug-free code, so I do some things that would be otherwise unecessary.
2016-09-27T22:03:26Z jasom: in particular I try to avoid needing locks at all because of issues like this.
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2016-09-27T22:04:08Z _death: indeed, better to use a higher-level abstraction like message passing
2016-09-27T22:04:16Z White_Flame: when I do stuff like this, it's very explicitly "This library of functions must be called within a locked context", which the lock holders call
2016-09-27T22:04:32Z White_Flame: tryign to hide it any deeper than that is asking for trouble
2016-09-27T22:05:33Z jasom: because explicit locking is so much more prone to heisenbugs than other styles of code, I tend to code much more defensively around them.
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2016-09-27T22:05:59Z White_Flame: yep
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2016-09-27T22:08:17Z hellcode: huh? the ,@ syntactic sugar is defined to work with a space as in ,@ (...) ?
2016-09-27T22:09:01Z jasom: hellcode: why wouldn't it?
2016-09-27T22:09:02Z White_Flame: sure, the reader macro itself is the ",@" part.  It then (most likely) READs the next item to dot into the list
2016-09-27T22:09:22Z hellcode: oh okay
2016-09-27T22:10:04Z hellcode: idk, I'd always thought it'd necessarilly be ,@( instead; learn something new erryday
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2016-09-27T22:10:14Z jasom: the spec only says "following" IIRC
2016-09-27T22:10:30Z White_Flame: ,@var is also valid, no parens
2016-09-27T22:10:40Z hellcode: oh yes indeed
2016-09-27T22:11:06Z hellcode: ty
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2016-09-27T22:22:06Z hellcode: jasom: writing bug-free code? is that even possible?
2016-09-27T22:22:45Z jasom: hellcode: yes, it's just very expensive.
2016-09-27T22:23:08Z raydeejay: or unuseful
2016-09-27T22:23:23Z raydeejay: (defun bug-free-fn () (values)) ; bug free code
2016-09-27T22:23:47Z hellcode: you mean trivial
2016-09-27T22:24:18Z jasom: hellcode: there are non-trivial bits of software that are formally or semi-formally verified to conform to a particular model.  Those could reasonably be called "bug free"
2016-09-27T22:25:05Z hellcode: yes, I'm aware that a program can achieve that status
2016-09-27T22:25:18Z hellcode: I'm rather thinking of the process before it does
2016-09-27T22:30:56Z fkac: "(defun new-person (&keyword pos &optional name ..." makes ERC warn me that the variable "&keyword" is not used. Is my code wrong in some way? My intent is for POS to be required, all other arguments to be optional, and all arguments to be supplied with keywords
2016-09-27T22:31:08Z fkac: ECL, not ERC, sorry
2016-09-27T22:31:44Z jasom: fkac: you can't have keyword arguments before optional arguments
2016-09-27T22:32:10Z jasom: fkac: make them all keyword arguments and then signal an error if pos isn't passed
2016-09-27T22:32:26Z fkac: I suppose that would work, thanks
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2016-09-27T22:42:01Z akkad: for string compares (equal "foo" some_var) should be used?
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2016-09-27T22:43:42Z fkac: STRING=
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2016-09-27T22:47:10Z jasom: akkad: equal or string= depending on what you want it to do if one operand isn't a string
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2016-09-27T22:51:16Z beaky: is it bad to use unexported names
2016-09-27T22:51:32Z jasom: beaky: what do you mean?
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2016-09-27T22:51:57Z beaky: using double-colons
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2016-09-27T22:52:38Z jasom: beaky: it depends on what you are doing.  Might be worth asking the author why the symbol wasn't exported.
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2016-09-27T23:27:27Z beaky: does common lisp have sequence types besides lists? (like how clojure has vectors, maps, sets, and more)
2016-09-27T23:28:42Z fkac: beaky: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/t_seq.htm
2016-09-27T23:30:05Z akkad thought string= was elisp. heh
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2016-09-27T23:34:05Z cpc26: Hickey just wrote clojure to have a "lisp under the radar on the JVM" - he was a common lisp programmer.
2016-09-27T23:34:49Z fkac: Xach: http://pastebin.com/P0x2JX25
2016-09-27T23:36:59Z akkad: he wrote it on the CLR first
2016-09-27T23:37:32Z fkac: Xach: I now see on the description that it's specifically for SBCL and CCL. Is that the case?
2016-09-27T23:38:12Z XachX_: fkac: yes
2016-09-27T23:38:31Z fkac: XachX_: Apologies in that case
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2016-09-27T23:42:11Z cpc26: akkad: I remember him mentioning it but had abandoned that project, he was full steam JVM and how the JVM has all these great developers, you get all these great libraries...  CLR, well we all make mistakes, Hickey was a BIG C++ proponent too.
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2016-09-28T02:48:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-09-28T05:28:56Z jasom: beach: note also that lisp has hash tables, but those aren't considered sequences
2016-09-28T05:29:00Z jasom: beach: good morning
2016-09-28T05:29:15Z jasom: beaky: note also that lisp has hash tables, but those aren't considered sequences
2016-09-28T05:29:18Z jasom: sorry beach
2016-09-28T05:29:42Z jasom: there are 3 nicks that start with "bea" in this channel
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2016-09-28T05:42:32Z beach: jasom: Yeah, I couldn't figure out why you wanted to communicate this particular information to me.
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2016-09-28T06:11:40Z akkad: cpc26: no doubt adhd. "oooh clr! oooh jvm! ooh nodejs!"
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2016-09-28T07:12:22Z lexicall: hi, is there any graphics packages that permits to load pictures(png, jpg) and manipulate them?
2016-09-28T07:12:59Z z0d: I think there's at least one binding to GD
2016-09-28T07:13:05Z z0d: maybe one for Image Magick
2016-09-28T07:13:17Z lexicall: better be able to read the pictures as vectors or lists so I can manipulate each pixel.
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2016-09-28T07:13:48Z lexicall: ok i'll check the cl-gd library.
2016-09-28T07:15:05Z Bike: opticl is nice
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2016-09-28T07:20:08Z lexicall: Bike: cool, it's easy to install in quicklisp and I can quickly run the example code.
2016-09-28T07:20:17Z lexicall: thanks both of you.
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2016-09-28T08:20:31Z easye: Can anybody quickly point me to where SLIME determines the arity of a given function?  I'm trying to change an ABCL EXTENSION function signature to take optional keyword arguments, but then my SLIME keeps reacting badly giving off "error in process filter: if: Wrong number of arguments: nil, 87
2016-09-28T08:20:31Z easye: error in process filter: Wrong number of arguments: nil, 87
2016-09-28T08:20:33Z easye: "
2016-09-28T08:20:35Z easye: messages
2016-09-28T08:21:59Z jackdaniel: easye: I think it uses arglist for that, which has separate implementation for each CL
2016-09-28T08:22:24Z easye: Good.  Looking for the ABCL arglist implementation.
2016-09-28T08:22:41Z jackdaniel: don't take it as granted though, I may be wrong
2016-09-28T08:22:54Z easye: No, that sounds familar.
2016-09-28T08:23:16Z jackdaniel: I mean - it may determine arity by other means, arglist is surely part of swank
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2016-09-28T08:24:48Z easye: Looks like I was being too fancy in trying to describe the default KEYWORD arguments, which is choking the Swank code that uses the DEFIMPLMENTATION ARGLIST binding.
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2016-09-28T09:48:54Z beaky: what datetime libs do you guys recommend
2016-09-28T09:49:01Z beaky: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/local-time/manual.html#Introduction is this one good
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2016-09-28T09:51:06Z _death: yes, local-time is ok
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2016-09-28T10:01:54Z Grue`: are there even others?
2016-09-28T10:03:12Z _death: sure.. for example the one in clocc
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2016-09-28T12:12:57Z beaky: hmm so lisp seems to separate function names from variable names (so i must do `(mapcar #'myfn mylist)` instead of `(mapcar myfn mylist)`) are there other gotchas in common lisp that will trip clojure users? :D
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2016-09-28T12:13:39Z flip214: common lisp is a lisp-2
2016-09-28T12:13:47Z flip214: perhaps you'd prefer a lisp-1, like scheme?
2016-09-28T12:13:57Z flip214: and yes, there are quite a few differences.
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2016-09-28T12:15:09Z jackdaniel: well, CL is so much more than lisp-2
2016-09-28T12:15:27Z jackdaniel: you have more namespaces than two
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2016-09-28T12:17:53Z beaky: ah
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2016-09-28T12:26:18Z raydeejay: "lisp-2" is extremely confusing
2016-09-28T12:26:56Z beaky: lisp-n :D
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2016-09-28T12:28:26Z ktt9: More like lisp-5 or lisp-6.
2016-09-28T12:28:46Z jackdaniel: n is unbound ;)
2016-09-28T12:33:24Z flip214: variables, functions, classes, packages, readtables, asdf systems
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2016-09-28T12:35:58Z dlowe: the paper wasn't trying to make some kind of official, exact terminology :p
2016-09-28T12:36:18Z dlowe: it's just a convenient shorthand
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2016-09-28T12:48:31Z pipping: fortunately, people never take things too literally. which explains why there is no such thing as religious fundamentalism.
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2016-09-28T13:00:30Z Grue`: beaky: I believe the concept of CONS is rather different in Clojure and Common Lisp, so that might trip you up too
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2016-09-28T13:14:10Z beaky: ye i just got tripped by that too haha
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2016-09-28T13:51:22Z attila_lendvai feels like getting off his ass and traveling for contract work
2016-09-28T13:52:54Z beach: What kept you from doing it until now?
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2016-09-28T13:55:47Z attila_lendvai: beach: private life matters. in the past few years I was mostly traveling inside my own head, reevaluating past experiences and my perspective on life... I'll slowly need some income, and the thought of a remote lisp job is calling my heart.
2016-09-28T13:57:09Z beach: Do you have any offers?
2016-09-28T13:58:07Z attila_lendvai: no, I didn't even look yet. I'll need to update my CV and stuff... but I thought I'll drop here a thought first, among people who know me to some extent.
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2016-09-28T13:58:59Z myrkraverk: I'm doing lisp at work, but mostly because my $employer doesn't care what language I use.
2016-09-28T13:59:10Z myrkraverk: But afaict, we're not hiring.
2016-09-28T13:59:31Z myrkraverk: attila_lendvai: so you can always look for a language freedom job, as well.
2016-09-28T13:59:45Z attila_lendvai: ...and people *I* know to some extent. e.g. I haven't done anything with clasp, but I find drmeister's engineering attitude rather inviting.
2016-09-28T14:00:09Z myrkraverk: what is clasp?
2016-09-28T14:00:23Z dlowe: minion: clasp?
2016-09-28T14:00:25Z minion: clasp: An implementation of Common Lisp that interoperates smoothly with C++ and uses LLVM to generate native code
2016-09-28T14:00:46Z attila_lendvai: myrkraverk: we have our own lisp company here, and I could always pick up a language-freedom project... but I'm looking for more, a challenging task with inspiring people.
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2016-09-28T14:01:12Z JuanDaugherty: the llvm backend of sbcl is little used?
2016-09-28T14:01:36Z attila_lendvai: IOW, it's not primarily about income, although that's definitely part of the story.
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2016-09-28T14:03:49Z HeyFlash: attila_lendvai: If drmeisters grant proposal goes through, he'll be looking for people to hire for clasp.
2016-09-28T14:04:53Z attila_lendvai: HeyFlash: sound interesting, thanks. I'll need to get my hands dirty with clasp before that then... :)
2016-09-28T14:05:28Z myrkraverk: I'd also be quite interested -- except I already have a job.
2016-09-28T14:06:26Z myrkraverk: The closest I've come to making a compiler in or for lisp, has been implementing binary protocols for postmodern.
2016-09-28T14:06:45Z notpratch is now known as pratch
2016-09-28T14:07:06Z myrkraverk: Which reminds me, I should blog an example of that some day.
2016-09-28T14:07:53Z attila_lendvai: I would guess that there's plenty of non-hardcore-compiler work around clasp
2016-09-28T14:08:16Z myrkraverk: I'm sure.
2016-09-28T14:08:57Z dlowe: I think it uses cleaver and other CL implementation libraries to do its thing, all of which need work.
2016-09-28T14:09:14Z jackdaniel: cleavir
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2016-09-28T14:09:50Z beach: jackdaniel: Thanks! :)
2016-09-28T14:09:51Z jackdaniel: (which is part of SICL)
2016-09-28T14:09:55Z jackdaniel: sure
2016-09-28T14:10:39Z attila_lendvai: I like to think more about the design of complex and large systems anyways (as opposed to bit hunting, although I kinda like that too)
2016-09-28T14:11:28Z myrkraverk: complex and large systems are always made up of individual componets that in turn need to be well written.
2016-09-28T14:11:45Z myrkraverk: Most of my large system experience has been revolving around postgres, in on form or another.
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2016-09-28T14:14:20Z beach: attila_lendvai: Compiler optimizations such as type inference, redundancy elimination, value numbering, etc, fall into the category of "design of complex and large systems" rather than in the category of "bit hunting".
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2016-09-28T14:15:13Z beach: ... especially if you want them to allow customization based on target implementation, processor type, etc.
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2016-09-28T14:15:27Z myrkraverk: Btw, I listened to a D.J. Bernstein talk, where he's talking about the pointlessness of the optimziing compiler.
2016-09-28T14:15:54Z beach: That sounds interesting.  Is it online?
2016-09-28T14:15:58Z attila_lendvai: beach: I know. what I meant to say is that I think I'm better at having useful insights on the high-level design than e.g. optimizing the register allocation code
2016-09-28T14:16:06Z jackdaniel: I bet his talk was recorded on camera which ran highly optimized software (to keep up with data stream ;)
2016-09-28T14:16:18Z myrkraverk: Because, in most systems, the stuff is written in scripts (interpreted stuff) and hand written assemply.
2016-09-28T14:16:20Z beach: attila_lendvai: Yes, I see.
2016-09-28T14:16:42Z myrkraverk: beach: yes, it's somewhere on cr.yp.to, but I don't remember which lecture it was.
2016-09-28T14:16:57Z myrkraverk: jackdaniel: only audio for that talk, though.
2016-09-28T14:17:09Z attila_lendvai: IOW, I think I'm better at the artistic aspects of programming than the algorithmic/mathematic aspects of it
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2016-09-28T14:17:39Z jackdaniel: can one be without another? :)
2016-09-28T14:17:49Z beach: myrkraverk: The reason for that is that people use static languages for the base code, so they need a dynamic language for extensions.  By using a scripting language, they manage to make the combination very slow, and thus removing all potential advantage of using a static language in the first place.
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2016-09-28T14:18:35Z myrkraverk: beach: there's that, of course.
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2016-09-28T14:19:43Z beach: myrkraverk: But we don't work that way, so for us, compiler optimizations are not only valuable; they are essential.
2016-09-28T14:20:07Z myrkraverk: *nod*
2016-09-28T14:20:22Z myrkraverk: Though, most of my lisp is in form of static programs.
2016-09-28T14:20:23Z dlowe: Isn't that the logical extension of "optimize only where profiling says it's required," though?
2016-09-28T14:20:35Z fe[nl]ix: beach: http://cr.yp.to/talks/2015.04.16/slides-djb-20150416-a4.pdf
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2016-09-28T14:21:12Z myrkraverk: fe[nl]ix: is there audio for that lecture? I remember I listened to it (on my phone) while in standing in line.
2016-09-28T14:21:19Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Thanks!
2016-09-28T14:21:31Z fe[nl]ix: myrkraverk: I don't know
2016-09-28T14:21:51Z myrkraverk: Ok, right now my 'net is so slow i'm too lazy to check.
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2016-09-28T14:22:25Z fe[nl]ix: beach: I also read a blog post from a few months ago where the author was comparing the performance of a production piece of software compiled using the latest GCC 6(?) and GCC 2.95
2016-09-28T14:22:38Z fe[nl]ix: and the difference in performance was < 4% IIRC
2016-09-28T14:22:52Z myrkraverk: I have 2015.04.16.ogg on my phone, so yeah -- probably the same lecture c;
2016-09-28T14:22:54Z attila_lendvai grabs some food
2016-09-28T14:22:57Z fe[nl]ix: I can't find it right now
2016-09-28T14:25:16Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Sure, when we are discussing software written in C for Unix-like operating systems, I can agree with the conclusion.  But then, writing software in C for Unix-like operating systems is a large part of the problem.
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2016-09-28T14:42:04Z beaky: hello
2016-09-28T14:42:15Z beaky: what do i do when i get "Heap exhausted (no more space for allocation).          "
2016-09-28T14:42:27Z beaky: im using sbcl 1.3.9
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2016-09-28T14:42:37Z dlowe: at the slime repl, you ,restart-lisp-implementation
2016-09-28T14:43:23Z dlowe: if you're allocating too much memory, you can increase the amount sbcl uses
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2016-09-28T14:45:06Z beaky: hmm how do i tell slime to do that
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2016-09-28T14:45:30Z beaky: (still blowing out my heap after trying to read a 50mb file to a string :D)
2016-09-28T14:45:39Z beach: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 10000")
2016-09-28T14:45:48Z beach: In your .emacs file.
2016-09-28T14:46:01Z Grue`: are you sure you don't have infinite recursion somewhere?
2016-09-28T14:46:17Z beach: That would blow the stack probably, not the heap.
2016-09-28T14:46:59Z dlowe: hm. 50mb isn't very much.
2016-09-28T14:47:10Z beach: beaky: The value is in MB, so 10000 is 10GB.
2016-09-28T14:47:32Z dlowe: can you post your reading code on paste.lisp.org?
2016-09-28T14:48:06Z beach: But yeah, 50 millibits is not much.
2016-09-28T14:48:16Z Grue`: maybe beaky concatenates each char one by one, creating new strings in the process so it's (50mb^2/2)
2016-09-28T14:48:36Z Grue`: and old strings don't get garbage collected for (insert reason)
2016-09-28T14:48:37Z flip214: that would be a major OUCH
2016-09-28T14:49:55Z beaky: im doing (alexandria:read-file-into-string "50MBfile.txt")
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2016-09-28T14:50:23Z beach: beaky: Increase the heap size first and see whether it helps.
2016-09-28T14:50:44Z dlowe: ... are you *sure* it's 50MB?
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2016-09-28T14:51:10Z beaky: ye
2016-09-28T14:51:11Z dlowe: try doing ls -lh
2016-09-28T14:51:25Z _death: maybe it croaks because it tries to print this string
2016-09-28T14:51:34Z beaky: oh
2016-09-28T14:52:15Z beach: _death: Good catch.
2016-09-28T14:52:36Z beach: Not that I see a reason for the heap to be exhausted from printing a string, but hey.
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2016-09-28T14:52:58Z dlowe: that would be some disappointing printing code
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2016-09-28T14:53:44Z _death: swank->slime printing may be a bit more complex than ordinary sbcl-at-term
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2016-09-28T14:54:56Z Grue`: i find that slime slows to a crawl even if it DOES manage to print a huge string
2016-09-28T14:55:10Z _death: or many strings..
2016-09-28T14:55:18Z beach: beaky: So try (defparameter *s* (alexandria...)) instead.
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2016-09-28T14:57:13Z beaky: yes the defparameter runs nicely :D thanks
2016-09-28T14:57:28Z beaky: i guess slime doesnt like printing out 50MB strings :<
2016-09-28T14:57:48Z beach: Seems that way, yes.
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2016-09-28T15:27:54Z ukari: how to use reference? paste.lisp.org/+70JS
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2016-09-28T15:27:57Z beaky: are lisp strings like haskell strings (linked lists of characters)
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2016-09-28T15:30:07Z _death: ukari: (setf (cdr y) x1)
2016-09-28T15:30:10Z _death: beaky: no
2016-09-28T15:30:37Z Grue`: lisp strings are arrays of characters
2016-09-28T15:30:53Z Grue`: *vectors of characters, to be more precise
2016-09-28T15:30:59Z beaky: ah good
2016-09-28T15:32:13Z ukari: beaky, i want y changes when x1 change
2016-09-28T15:32:19Z _death: ukari: you need to distinguish between changing an object and changing a binding..
2016-09-28T15:32:56Z Grue`: ukari: you can change each element of x1, then y will change too
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2016-09-28T15:33:24Z ukari: beaky, sorry, the message before is send to _death not you
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2016-09-28T15:33:41Z beaky: :>
2016-09-28T15:33:49Z _death: ukari: try (let* ((lhs (list 1 2 3)) (rhs (list 4 5 6)) (combined (cons lhs rhs))) (setf (elt rhs 0) 'four) combined)
2016-09-28T15:35:07Z Grue`: (symbol-macrolet ((x1 '(cdr y))) (setf x1 '(7 8 9)))
2016-09-28T15:35:32Z ukari: Grue`, it works
2016-09-28T15:36:29Z Grue`: good, I didn't actually test it. but I don't recommend doing silly stuff like this in actual code
2016-09-28T15:37:20Z _death: it shouldn't work because of the quote
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2016-09-28T15:40:48Z ukari: _death, thanks, it works too. I guess (setf x1 '(7 8 9)) creates a new reference and rebind to x1, but y still hold the x1's old reference
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2016-09-28T15:47:54Z _death: ukari: the terminology is a bit confused, but the thinking is correct
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2016-09-28T15:54:31Z beach: ukari: I personally think you are seriously confused.  When you do (setf y (cons x x1)) the VALUE of the variable X1 is transmitted to the CONS function.  After that there is no trace of the variable X1 inside the list referred to by Y.  Therefore, changing the value of X1 afterwards, will have no effect on Y.
2016-09-28T15:55:10Z beach: ukari: Plus, the result of using SETF on undefined global variables is not defined by the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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2016-09-28T15:56:03Z beach: ukari: And, for global variables like that, it is best to use earmuffs as in *x*, *y*, and *x1*.
2016-09-28T15:57:40Z beach: ukari: SETF (or SETQ) does not DEFINE a variable.  It changes the value of an already defined variable.  Use something like DEFPARAMETER to define a variable.
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2016-09-28T16:01:28Z ukari: beach, paste.lisp.org/+70JS/1, it not transmit value, it trans reference
2016-09-28T16:03:47Z Bike: in the second one? (setf (cdr *x1*) ...) alters the value of x1, which is also part of the value of *y*.
2016-09-28T16:04:04Z Bike: (setf *x1* ...) doesn't alter the value itself, just changes what x1 refers to.
2016-09-28T16:04:26Z beach: ukari: References are not first-class in Common Lisp.  You can't pass a reference to a function.  SETF is not a function; it is a macro.  SETF is special in that it examines the form to set and does what you expect in most cases.
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2016-09-28T16:05:03Z ukari: oh, it is a macro!
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2016-09-28T16:06:16Z beach: ukari: Something like (setf (cdr a) b) expands to something like (rplacd a b).  Here rplacd is a function, but notice that it is passed the value of A, not the reference (CDR A).
2016-09-28T16:07:11Z beach: ukari: The SETF macro "knows" that in order to set the CDR of something, it must call the RPLACD function on that something.
2016-09-28T16:08:39Z ukari: (defun passing (v) #'(lambda () v))
2016-09-28T16:09:19Z ukari: could i think in common lisp, things are passing by value/copy?
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2016-09-28T16:10:13Z beach: Common Lisp is call-by-value, but the values are pointers (references) and nothing is ever implicitly copied.
2016-09-28T16:10:17Z ukari: if a closue capture a free virable, it captures a value/copy but not reference
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2016-09-28T16:11:47Z ggole: There's no (visible) copying. It's the same variable, in that updates to it are visible wherever that variable is referenced.
2016-09-28T16:12:02Z beach: ukari: In your example, the closure will refer to the value of v each time that closure is called.  If v changes values in between, you get the new value when calling the closure.
2016-09-28T16:13:03Z beaky: damn i love lisp
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2016-09-28T16:13:23Z beach: ukari: try something like (defun bla (v) (list (lambda () v) (lambda (x) (setf v x))))
2016-09-28T16:13:51Z beach: ukari: That technique is used a lot in SICP.
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2016-09-28T16:16:15Z ukari: i know it is a let over lambda over let over lambda
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2016-09-28T16:21:27Z phoe: beach: your example creates a list of two functions - a getter and a setter for a variable. Right?
2016-09-28T16:21:35Z beach: Yes.
2016-09-28T16:22:21Z phoe: It absolutely looks like SICP.
2016-09-28T16:22:29Z beach: In Common Lisp, it is more appropriate to use standard objects than closures, but since Scheme does not have an object system, they use closures instead.
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2016-09-28T16:25:47Z ukari: (defun bla2 (v) (list (lambda () v) (lambda (x) (setf (cdr v) x))))
2016-09-28T16:27:26Z phoe: ukari: dangerous.
2016-09-28T16:27:36Z phoe: V is initially NIL.
2016-09-28T16:27:50Z beach: phoe: What makes you think that?
2016-09-28T16:27:51Z phoe: It doesn't have a CDR.
2016-09-28T16:27:55Z phoe: Oh, wait.
2016-09-28T16:27:56Z phoe: Wait wait.
2016-09-28T16:27:59Z phoe: It's a DEFUn.
2016-09-28T16:28:01Z phoe: Not a LET.
2016-09-28T16:28:06Z beach: Indeed.
2016-09-28T16:28:09Z phoe: I already switched on my SICP mode.
2016-09-28T16:28:18Z phoe: Sorry.
2016-09-28T16:28:35Z phoe: So - V must be a cons.
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2016-09-28T16:29:11Z phoe: So, basically, your object now has an immutable and a mutable part.
2016-09-28T16:29:36Z phoe: If you only mutate it using the function defined here, of course.
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2016-09-28T16:31:26Z ukari: i guess, when not use macro, every varible refers to a immutable space that stores their value. if a varible changes, it refers to a new place which stores new immutable value.so trans a varible with reference will works like trans by value/copy
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2016-09-28T16:32:05Z beach: The space is not immutable in general.
2016-09-28T16:32:12Z ukari: when use macro, the plave stores value is mutable
2016-09-28T16:32:30Z beach: Only if the value is a literal is it immutable.
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2016-09-28T16:33:05Z beach: ukari: I think you are still confused.
2016-09-28T16:33:19Z beach: ukari: Nothing is ever implicitly copied in Common Lisp.
2016-09-28T16:33:46Z ukari: no no, what i guess is the effictive implement of common lisp
2016-09-28T16:33:54Z beach: ukari: The value of a variable can be thought of as a pointer to some place in memory.
2016-09-28T16:34:16Z beach: ukari: When you use a variable as an argument to a function, the pointer is passed to the function.
2016-09-28T16:34:24Z beach: ukari: So nothing is copied.
2016-09-28T16:34:45Z beach: ukari: When you use SETF (or SETQ) on a variable, a new pointer becomes the value of that variable.
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2016-09-28T16:37:10Z beach: ukari: To see that nothing is copied, try this: (defparameter *l* (list 1 2 3)) then (defun ff (list) (setf (car list) 4)) then (ff *l*) then *l*.
2016-09-28T16:38:44Z beach: ukari: Here *l* is a variable, and its value is a pointer to a sequence of three CONS cells.  The call (ff *l*) passes that pointer to the function FF.  The function FF alters the CAR of the first CONS cell in that sequence.
2016-09-28T16:38:46Z ukari: i means that x -> pointer -> value, pointer will change or pass to y, but value is immuteable if not use macro,
2016-09-28T16:39:24Z beach: My example shows that the value is not immutable.
2016-09-28T16:39:28Z beach: I just altered it.
2016-09-28T16:39:49Z ktt9`: Ugh. I just read IRC Quotes on CLiki and found one about -ENOSENSE.
2016-09-28T16:39:50Z beach: It was the list (1 2 3).  After the call to FF, it is now (4 2 3).
2016-09-28T16:40:00Z ktt9`: So... Is that - symbol standard?
2016-09-28T16:40:07Z ktt9`: Or this is an sbcl feature?
2016-09-28T16:41:32Z beach: ktt9`: There is no symbol named -ENOSENSE in the Common Lisp standard.
2016-09-28T16:42:22Z ukari: you use a setf macro, so value is muteable
2016-09-28T16:42:52Z Bike: in context this quote clearly does not suggest that there is anything actually called "-ENOSENSE"
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2016-09-28T16:44:38Z ktt9`: beach: I figured that. My question was about -, not -ENOSENCE.
2016-09-28T16:44:46Z _death: clhs -
2016-09-28T16:44:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a__.htm
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2016-09-28T16:45:09Z ktt9`: Oh my.
2016-09-28T16:45:15Z ktt9`: It's standard.
2016-09-28T16:45:35Z ktt9`: How come I have never heard of it until today.
2016-09-28T16:45:46Z Bike: cos it's hard to google for, natch
2016-09-28T16:45:50Z ktt9`: I should study more.
2016-09-28T16:45:51Z beach: ukari: It has nothing to do with SETF.  Try this instead: (defparameter *l* (list 1 2 3)) then (defun ff (list) (rplaca list 4)) then (ff *l*) then *l*.
2016-09-28T16:46:11Z beach: ukari: RPLACA is a function, and it is able to change the CAR of the first CONS cell in the list.
2016-09-28T16:47:20Z _death: ktt9: here's a note I made about it and similar variables.. http://paste.lisp.org/display/327311
2016-09-28T16:48:14Z ktt9`: _death: thanks.
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2016-09-28T16:48:32Z ktt9`: / is another discovery of today.
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2016-09-28T16:51:24Z phoe: ktt9`: also * and +
2016-09-28T16:53:50Z ukari: beach, i get it, in cl varible will have a new ref when use (setf varible
2016-09-28T16:53:56Z White_Flame: and *, **, ***, +, ++, +++, /, //, ///
2016-09-28T16:54:05Z White_Flame: to get at the recent repl history
2016-09-28T16:54:07Z beach: ukari: Correct!
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2016-09-28T16:55:14Z beach: ukari: Dinner is imminent, so I need to go.  I advice you to draw the diagrams with the CONS cells in the beginning.  Things make so much more sense then.
2016-09-28T16:55:45Z ukari: thank you, beach
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2016-09-28T17:00:32Z dptd: Hello there. I am trying to parse xml file using cxml library. Example which can be found on the library website is not enough for me. Can anyone help? I am trying to get value from <id>1234</id> node.
2016-09-28T17:00:42Z dptd: What I have so far is build a dom document from the xml file.
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2016-09-28T17:01:16Z dptd: I can also get this element by its name using:
2016-09-28T17:01:18Z dptd: (dom:get-elements-by-tag-name (dom:document-element *example*) "id")
2016-09-28T17:01:28Z dptd: However I have no idea how to get the value.
2016-09-28T17:02:15Z ktt9`: phoe: of + and * I heard and use the latter quite actively c:
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2016-09-28T17:10:20Z _death: dptd: in this case, the id element has a text child node, and you can get the value of this node, which is "1234"
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2016-09-28T17:12:10Z dptd: _death: Do you know how can I get this value? I am jumping over the implementation and possible functions here but failed so far.
2016-09-28T17:12:28Z _death: dptd: (dom:node-value (dom:first-child the-id-node>))
2016-09-28T17:13:58Z dptd: Souns great but now I do not know how to get node ID. I was searching for it using "get-elements-by-tag-name". I am also not sure what kind of structure is being returned here.
2016-09-28T17:14:05Z dptd: #(#<RUNE-DOM::ELEMENT number {100763E7B3}>)
2016-09-28T17:14:19Z _death: dptd: that is a vector containing one element node
2016-09-28T17:14:21Z dptd: I guess here is the ID.
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2016-09-28T17:16:36Z Grue`: this library implements DOM API (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Document_Object_Model) very faithfully
2016-09-28T17:16:52Z Grue`: you just need to convert camel-cased symbols to lisp symbols...
2016-09-28T17:17:13Z dptd: Vector of instances of classes RUNE-DOM::ELEMENT.
2016-09-28T17:17:46Z dptd: Grue`: Thanks but I believe I am almost done with cxml. _death needs to help me just a little more. :)
2016-09-28T17:18:43Z _death: dptd: do you know how to access the first element of a vector
2016-09-28T17:18:50Z Grue`: it being a vector is just an implementation detail. you're supposed to use (dom:do-node-list) or (dom:item ) to access the elements
2016-09-28T17:19:17Z _death: Grue: right
2016-09-28T17:19:23Z dptd: (elt (dom:get-elements-by-tag-name (dom:document-element *example*) "number") 0)
2016-09-28T17:19:37Z dptd: hmmm
2016-09-28T17:20:11Z _death: another approach is to use cl-xmlspam.. (xspam:with-xspam-source "<id>1234</id>" (xspam:element :id (xspam:text (format t "~A~%" xspam:_))))
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2016-09-28T17:26:03Z dptd: I managed to get the value by using this line:
2016-09-28T17:26:07Z dptd: (dom:data (dom:first-child (elt (dom:get-elements-by-tag-name (dom:document-element *example*) "number") 0)))
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2016-09-28T17:27:34Z Grue`: just swap elt for dom:item and you're Enterprise Certified Lisper (TM)
2016-09-28T17:28:43Z dptd: Awesome, this works too. :)
2016-09-28T17:28:47Z dptd: Thanks everyone.
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2016-09-28T17:56:59Z myrkraverk: Wait, isn't SBCL already at 1.3.9 or later?
2016-09-28T17:57:07Z myrkraverk: I was reading the /topic
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2016-09-28T18:04:14Z beaky: yes im using sbcl 1.3.9 rite now?
2016-09-28T18:04:33Z beaky: on frebbsd
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2016-09-28T18:05:07Z mordocai: myrkraverk: SBCL is updated every month so sometimes the topic gets a bit behind
2016-09-28T18:05:14Z _death: it's soon time for .10
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2016-09-28T18:05:25Z beaky: wow i didnt realize sbcl was under that heavy devleopment D:
2016-09-28T18:05:41Z mordocai: beaky: Many months it is just a few bug fixes/minor improvements
2016-09-28T18:05:45Z mordocai: But yeah, pretty steady
2016-09-28T18:05:46Z beaky: oh
2016-09-28T18:06:15Z myrkraverk: beaky: if you want some of the details, you can lurk on #sbcl like I do.
2016-09-28T18:06:18Z mordocai: http://www.sbcl.org/news.html#1.3.9
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2016-09-28T18:07:23Z beaky: is sbcl a jit like the jvm or nodejs
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2016-09-28T18:07:56Z akkad: getting hangs in sbcl around pcall-queue calls. trying to debug where it's spending soo much time.
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2016-09-28T18:08:50Z myrkraverk: beaky: no, afaict, it always compiles to native binary, then executes.
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2016-09-28T18:09:16Z _death: well, there's also an interpreter
2016-09-28T18:10:02Z dlowe: minion: c21?
2016-09-28T18:10:02Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``c21''.
2016-09-28T18:10:06Z dlowe: minion: c21
2016-09-28T18:10:06Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``c21''.
2016-09-28T18:12:03Z myrkraverk: _death: perhaps, but all my defuns (disassemble ...) cleanly.
2016-09-28T18:13:19Z akkad: ahh hangs on freebsd
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2016-09-28T18:15:54Z _death: myrkraverk: there are actually two interpreters in sbcl.. if you want you can check out [sbcl]src/interpreter/README
2016-09-28T18:16:29Z myrkraverk: _death: I see.  I'm too lazy to read that now.
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2016-09-28T18:16:34Z myrkraverk: But I'll check later.
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2016-09-28T18:23:03Z jasom: sbcl was previously compile-only but they added an interpreter for cases where the compilation overhead is not justified\
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2016-09-28T18:26:53Z francogrex: the explanation for this is probably trivial but escapes me, any hints as why the testlist is not changed? http://paste.lisp.org/display/327317
2016-09-28T18:28:05Z francogrex: should i use (setf testlist (mapcar (lambda (x y) (pushnew x y)) line1 testlist)) ?
2016-09-28T18:30:02Z _death: pushnew changes the binding of y
2016-09-28T18:30:04Z beaky: how do i write optimized lisp
2016-09-28T18:30:16Z _death: francogrex: you want adjoin
2016-09-28T18:30:40Z mordocai: beaky: Well that is a super super generalized question. The generalized answer is use a profiler
2016-09-28T18:31:35Z _death: francogrex: and yes, if you want testlist to reflect the new value you should set it to it
2016-09-28T18:31:39Z mordocai: As in: Don't worry about writing "optimized" until it becomes a problem, then profile the code to determine where the problem is and research how to fix it
2016-09-28T18:32:05Z francogrex: I don't think I want adjoin
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2016-09-28T18:36:50Z beaky: does slime have a profile
2016-09-28T18:36:52Z beaky: profiler*
2016-09-28T18:38:01Z mordocai: beaky: Yeah, one sec
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2016-09-28T18:38:13Z _death: beaky: there is a contrib for sbcl's statistical profiler.. you can check out the slime source
2016-09-28T18:38:23Z myrkraverk: sbcl iirc also has a profiler.
2016-09-28T18:38:36Z mordocai: beaky: To start with https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Profiling.html
2016-09-28T18:38:48Z mordocai: And slime will use sbcl's profiler if I remember right but I haven't looked at it for awhile
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2016-09-28T18:39:52Z mordocai: akkad apparently has some recent experience using profiling tools re the conversation the other day.
2016-09-28T18:40:09Z mordocai hasn't had to use a profiler for his hobby projects in quite a while
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2016-09-28T18:44:28Z shrdlu68: Hi, has someone here used cl-xmpp? I could use some help debugging it.
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2016-09-28T18:48:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: dptd: I don't know if you have a specific reason to use cxml, but lquery is somewhat nicer
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2016-09-28T18:49:33Z beaky: damn slime is amazing thaknks mordoaci
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2016-09-28T18:51:19Z mordocai: beaky: The statistical profiling _death mentioned is documented here btw https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/slime_002dsprof.html
2016-09-28T18:51:55Z mordocai: PuercoPop: Btw, does sly have the slime profiling stuff? Just searching through my available functions in emacs isn't showing anything but I haven't gone farther then that.
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2016-09-28T18:58:03Z rpg_: Wondering if anyone knows -- does SLIME specially treat style warnings when handling compilation results?
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2016-09-28T18:58:41Z rpg: I have some warning code that perhaps should use STYLE-WARNING instead.
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2016-09-28T19:09:12Z akkad: mordocai: https://gist.github.com/d06d805e604565bb614fe2fcadc9deee
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2016-09-28T19:25:26Z beaky: hello
2016-09-28T19:25:52Z beaky: how do you implement things like priority queues in lisp
2016-09-28T19:26:09Z beaky: cons pairs and lists?
2016-09-28T19:26:32Z _death: the same way you'd implement them in other languages
2016-09-28T19:27:05Z beaky: hmm so lisp has something like structs or haskell's 'data'?
2016-09-28T19:27:29Z beaky: (or even good old arrays)
2016-09-28T19:27:34Z _death: clhs make-array
2016-09-28T19:27:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
2016-09-28T19:28:26Z beaky: wow
2016-09-28T19:28:27Z _death: beaky: perhaps you should read a nice Lisp book
2016-09-28T19:28:44Z akkad: beaky: there are a few libs you can look at that implement them
2016-09-28T19:29:00Z beaky: ye i still need to finish seibel's and graham's books
2016-09-28T19:29:31Z beaky: but i went in this whole time thinking the only data type were cons pairs (and lists of cons pairs)
2016-09-28T19:32:02Z hellcode: beaky: there are structs, OOP classes, and even hashses (or dictionaries or w/e you call them)
2016-09-28T19:32:09Z hellcode: hashes*
2016-09-28T19:32:43Z White_Flame: beaky: source code is generally only cons lists (though there are literal arrays and a few other exceptions), so that makes it nice and regular to work with
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2016-09-28T19:33:06Z White_Flame: and academia likes focusing just on cons lists, because everything can be modeled with them, sort of like any logic gates can be made out of NANDs
2016-09-28T19:33:13Z beaky: ah
2016-09-28T19:33:34Z White_Flame: but it's a practical, full featured, commercial language
2016-09-28T19:34:33Z White_Flame: the "Common" in Common Lisp was the industry merging together features of many different cutsom commercial lisps
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2016-09-28T19:39:57Z Quadresce: There are lots of logging libraries and even surveys of them. Has anyone used one for something like a web service that they've liked?
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2016-09-28T19:50:13Z PuercoPop: mordocai: now, it was removed until the interface was reworked. You can check the ANTINEWS for that https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/master/NEWS.md#anti-news-things-removed-from-slime
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2016-09-28T19:53:19Z jasom: Quadresce: I've used log4cl and don't hate it
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2016-09-28T19:54:15Z Quadresce: jasom, "don't hate it" is a pretty good review from you
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2016-09-28T19:55:53Z jasom: Quadresce: I mostly use multilog for log files from my services, so I don't use a lot of the features w.r.t. output that many of the logging libraries have.
2016-09-28T19:56:21Z jasom: Quadresce: multilog logs and timestamps all the output from a program, if you aren't familiar with it.
2016-09-28T19:56:37Z Quadresce: I'll look; I'm not familiar.
2016-09-28T19:56:38Z PuercoPop: Quadresce: I've been using verbose due to its rotating logging feature. It is a little bit coarse on the setup (One has to write some extra code for stuff like change the filtering level for example). But it seems designed with extension in mind. Shinmera recently improved it but I haven't updated my code yet.
2016-09-28T19:56:47Z jasom: https://cr.yp.to/daemontools/multilog.html
2016-09-28T19:57:53Z Quadresce: jasom, neat
2016-09-28T19:57:55Z jasom: log4cl lets me set logging levels with decent slime integration, and it defaults to logging to the terminal when run outside of slime, so it does what I want.
2016-09-28T19:59:22Z Quadresce: PuercoPop, verbose ain't afraid to allocate it seems (:
2016-09-28T19:59:30Z akkad: CL is an addiction, you'd be wise to avoid. :P
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2016-09-28T20:04:00Z knobo: I like log4cl
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2016-09-28T20:04:31Z knobo: But I have not tried any other logging libraries.
2016-09-28T20:04:50Z akkad: wasnt there a recent saba on the hill review of logging libs?
2016-09-28T20:04:53Z knobo: But I had to bugfix log4cl
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2016-09-28T20:05:26Z knobo: And the maintainer is not seen in several years.
2016-09-28T20:05:26Z jasom: akkad: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/comparison-of-lisp-logging-libraries
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2016-09-28T20:05:49Z akkad: thanks
2016-09-28T20:07:28Z Quadresce: I do wish there was a canonical library, like Python with their `logging` module.
2016-09-28T20:08:32Z raydeejay: canons are overrated (said J J Abrams)
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2016-09-28T20:09:31Z dlowe: There's currently no "batteries included" common lisp. There used to be, but it stopped being maintained.
2016-09-28T20:09:58Z dlowe: We do, at least, have something to download libraries and install them, which gets you some of the way there.
2016-09-28T20:10:21Z Quadresce: "Batteries included" is a separate issue. This is more of a choice/agreement thing.
2016-09-28T20:10:50Z dlowe: they're connected. There's a canonical python library because there's a canonical python distribution.
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2016-09-28T20:11:09Z Quadresce: Yes that's true.
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2016-09-28T20:15:20Z _death: also, in many of today's languages, every once in a while "canonical" changes, sometimes radically
2016-09-28T20:15:46Z raydeejay: but it's BETTER!
2016-09-28T20:17:03Z Quadresce: Right now, as it stands, there's no obvious choice of logging library. And it's not because they all solve radically different use-cases. It's because 15 developers scratched an itch and made their own incompatible variant.
2016-09-28T20:17:34Z knobo: Since libraries also nead logging, there should be a pluggable logging library that uses the logging facillity choosen by the application developer.
2016-09-28T20:17:37Z _death: not only that, the languages themselves change.. I thought I knew C++ well, but then came along C++11 and I didn't bother to upgrade my knowledge.. I thought I knew JS well, but then came along ES5/6/7/123 and I didn't bother to upgrade my knowledge.. python2-3 etc.  programming nowadays has its silliness.
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2016-09-28T20:18:19Z pipping: _death: it's worth mentioning that C++ has again considerably evolved since C++11.
2016-09-28T20:18:20Z _death: with CL, I appreciate the stability and not having to keep up with the language, just the libraries
2016-09-28T20:18:26Z Quadresce: knobo, I slightly agree, but with the caveat that it probably shouldn't be a logging library, but rather a logging protocol.
2016-09-28T20:18:45Z _death: pipping: yes.. I noticed "C++17" references
2016-09-28T20:19:10Z Quadresce: knobo, In other words, a library should provide a (ideally standardized) protocol for hooking a logger in. This could be a generic function with a default implementation. This is what Hunchentoot does for example.
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2016-09-28T20:19:48Z raydeejay: they should just keep adding +s
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2016-09-28T20:20:13Z Quadresce: But that goes into territory of defining programmatic idioms, which requires some collective agreement in some sense.
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2016-09-28T20:24:21Z PuercoPop: Quadresce: Something like a curated 'standard library' would be of use, but one would still have to design the API and write it.
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2016-09-28T20:25:34Z Quadresce: The thing is, a "curated standard X" usually doesn't work. Those things have this tone of being a mandate. What's preferable is to have something so simple and brilliant that it's just *obvious* as a choice.
2016-09-28T20:25:55Z Quadresce: But that takes a lot of time and hard work, both in design and implementation, and requires maintenance. :)
2016-09-28T20:26:06Z dlowe: Quadresce: that just pushes it from being an "outdated underfeatured library" to an "outdated underfeatured protocol"
2016-09-28T20:26:20Z dlowe: with the added bonus of poor implementations
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2016-09-28T20:27:07Z dlowe: I don't think anything simple and brilliant gained popularity because it was obvious as a choice.
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2016-09-28T20:28:27Z White_Flame: usually brilliant things are different enough that they don't gain traction just by their existence
2016-09-28T20:28:55Z Quadresce: They have to be used of course. There's bootstrapping involved.
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2016-09-28T20:46:46Z rpg: PuercoPop: Wasn't fare arguing to try to identify some best in class libraries so that we could focus on them?
2016-09-28T20:46:58Z Grue```: beaky: see https://github.com/TheRiver/CL-HEAP for priority queue implementation
2016-09-28T20:47:10Z rpg: Like cl-ppcre, maybe optima for matching, etc.
2016-09-28T20:50:14Z jackdaniel: I think having protocols (to allow competing implementation easy to swap) may be a good way forward
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2016-09-28T20:50:35Z PuercoPop: rpg: yes. But I'm thinking more of something like c++ boost.
2016-09-28T20:51:04Z dlowe: I think it's pointless. The whole reason we have multiple logging libraries is that someone didn't like the API.
2016-09-28T20:51:12Z PuercoPop: incidentally after fare deprecated his pattern matching in favor of optima, trivia appeared :D
2016-09-28T20:51:39Z rpg: PuercoPop: You mean a set of libraries that randomly change their API without warning, breaking code everywhere? ;-)
2016-09-28T20:51:41Z jackdaniel: it works for Common Lisp - one specification multiple implementations
2016-09-28T20:52:04Z PuercoPop: dlowe: or has different needs. But yeah
2016-09-28T20:53:05Z rpg: If a library is good enough, the benefit of having someone else doing the work *should* outweigh at least minor API variances. Unless you are hobby-programming, which is a separate thing.
2016-09-28T20:53:55Z rpg: Is anyone out there at least somewhat of an expert on SLIME?
2016-09-28T20:54:21Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: except threading, networking, etc, etc...
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2016-09-28T20:54:42Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: yes, but it's rather a problem, that no protocol/specification was available apriori
2016-09-28T20:54:57Z attila_lendvai: API variances all live in the version control system. if you don't want change, then don't pull.
2016-09-28T20:55:32Z rpg: I think I found an oddity in SWANK:COMPILE-FROM-TEMP-FILE
2016-09-28T20:55:34Z jackdaniel: for instatnce I plan to implement package-local-nicknames in ECL, the api is proposed, so I won't introduce my new thing
2016-09-28T20:55:42Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: that's my point: protocols can hinder your progress and will always be partial
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2016-09-28T20:56:32Z jackdaniel: I think that having protocol with more-or-less compatible implementations is better than having totally not compatible implementations
2016-09-28T20:57:12Z jackdaniel: also, if you decouple specification from the implementation, you have documentation (in contrast to implementatin-defined behaviors)
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2016-09-28T21:15:23Z knobo: Could someone show me en example of what makes a protocol and not just a library with functions/methods?
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2016-09-28T21:15:51Z _death: knobo: check out the clim spec :)
2016-09-28T21:16:16Z knobo: _death: I don't have a month.. :P
2016-09-28T21:17:08Z _death: knobo: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html so just read the overview
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2016-09-28T21:17:34Z jasom: knobo: a library with function/methods is a kind of informal protocol.  The problem is that you need to duplicate its behavior *exactly* to be fully compatible
2016-09-28T21:17:39Z knobo: _death: but it does not explain what the difference is of a protocol and library
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2016-09-28T21:18:40Z jasom: knobo: a more formally defined protocol communicates what sorts of things a user should expect from the protocol, making it much more practical to have multiple implementations.
2016-09-28T21:18:44Z rpg: I'm not sure where the term "protocol" for "a not-necessarily-formal API spec that admits multiple implementations" comes from
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2016-09-28T21:19:05Z _death: another good text about protocols is AMOP
2016-09-28T21:19:06Z rpg: Keene's OOP in CL book uses it.
2016-09-28T21:19:18Z rpg: Her protocols are *much* simpler!
2016-09-28T21:19:20Z knobo: When I think of protocol, I think about ipv4, http etc..
2016-09-28T21:19:46Z rpg: Actually an example of a protocol in the CL sense would be the CL-DOT protocol for doing GENERATE-GRAPH-FROM-ROOTS. That's a nice small one.
2016-09-28T21:19:47Z jasom: knobo: those are network protocols (and often the term "protocol" in isolation implies network protocol)
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2016-09-28T21:24:51Z knobo: Like when it is stated that wayland is a protocol I get confused.
2016-09-28T21:25:56Z knobo: Protocol: An agreed standardised way of performing a task. A process that is repeatable and reproducible.
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2016-09-28T21:27:29Z _death: knobo: wayland is a communication protocol, so I don't see why you should get confused.  those usually make explicit the states and state transitions
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2016-09-28T21:27:58Z rpg: Some of the protocols that we have been talking about aren't state oriented.
2016-09-28T21:28:18Z rpg: E.g., provide a set of methods for these objects in order to enable computation of FOO.
2016-09-28T21:29:51Z _death: usually they are still somewhat state oriented.. in that the definer of the method knows about the context in which his method will get called
2016-09-28T21:30:33Z akkad: are there any other projects like pgloader that have a dsl that are not lispy in nature? (e.g. no parens)
2016-09-28T21:32:05Z _death: for example print-object, or update-instance-for-redefined-class..
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2016-09-28T21:35:30Z rpg: _death: True. But in a network protocol, as you point out, the implementer of the protocol is likely to manage the states.
2016-09-28T21:35:44Z beaky: ls
2016-09-28T21:36:21Z raydeejay: ./ ../ passwords.txt
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2016-09-28T21:38:05Z pipping: mv raydeejay raydeedoo
2016-09-28T21:38:30Z rpg: Actually, that's an interesting difference in the use of protocol.  In the GENERATE-GRAPH-FROM-ROOTS, what I mean by "implementing the protocol" is really "provide the bits of information needed for the protocol to proceed."
2016-09-28T21:38:37Z raydeejay: there is no "raydeejay" file, learn to read the oputput of ls!!
2016-09-28T21:38:51Z pipping: raydeejay: there is on my machine ;)
2016-09-28T21:39:00Z raydeejay is flattered
2016-09-28T21:40:25Z rpg: _death: Quite different from implementing a network protocol.
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2016-09-28T21:41:07Z rpg: Another example: the PRINT protocol, which requires providing methods for *PRINT-READABLY* T and NIL or using PRINT-NOT-READABLE and raising the appropriate condition on *PRINT-READABLY* t
2016-09-28T21:41:11Z _death: rpg: right.. I'm not saying they are the same concept.. for me "protocol" is an ambiguous term.  but the concepts share certain similarities.
2016-09-28T21:41:51Z rpg: One is somehow "implementing the protocol" and the other is "participating in the protocol" or something like that
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2016-09-28T21:44:40Z _death: rpg: I don't like to argue about the exact definitions.. that is why I suggested reading clim/amop.. to get a feel of what is meant by "protocol" in such contexts.. and in the mind of the reader, it still doesn't have to relate to "protocol" in the communication sense
2016-09-28T21:44:56Z rpg: agreed.
2016-09-28T21:48:03Z _death: rpg: it's true that there are different kinds of protocols in the CLOS sense.. AMOP goes into that
2016-09-28T21:48:25Z trocado: an easy question for you guys: imagine you want to have a function that either adds or multiplies two numbers
2016-09-28T21:48:32Z trocado: is it possible to do something like:
2016-09-28T21:48:56Z trocado: (defun add-or-subtract a b operation)
2016-09-28T21:49:04Z trocado: and then
2016-09-28T21:49:19Z trocado: (operation a b)
2016-09-28T21:49:21Z trocado: ?
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2016-09-28T21:49:42Z trocado: i'm trying to avoid having duplicate code...
2016-09-28T21:50:04Z _death: trocado: it's called funcall.. (funcall (random-elt '(+ *)) num1 num2)
2016-09-28T21:50:48Z trocado: _death: nice, i'll try that. thank you!
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2016-09-28T21:50:55Z raydeejay: (defun add-or-subtract (a b) (if (zerop (random 1)) (+ a b) (* a b))) ;; more fun
2016-09-28T21:51:10Z raydeejay: (random 2)*
2016-09-28T21:51:10Z _death: raydeejay: that's always + :)
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2016-09-28T21:52:30Z mordocai: trocado: So your exact use case would probably be (defun add-or-subtract (a b operation) (funcall operation a b)) used as (add-or-subtract 5 3 #'+). Of course, the name is wrong because you can give any two argument function.
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2016-09-28T21:53:03Z raydeejay: so you define a type
2016-09-28T21:53:13Z raydeejay: I wonder if this is a good match for the actual code :)
2016-09-28T21:56:03Z trocado: this is the code: http://paste.lisp.org/+70KE
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2016-09-28T21:57:34Z trocado: instead of writing another function that does the exact same thing, but with - instead of +, i want to have it all in the same function
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2016-09-28T22:01:34Z _death: first you need to understand that (i) sort is a destructive operator (ii) its result should always be used
2016-09-28T22:03:21Z trocado: _death: what do you mean? i'm using its result.
2016-09-28T22:03:33Z _death: trocado: by "result" I mean the value it returns
2016-09-28T22:04:49Z raydeejay: *I* would probably define expand-chord-up, expand-chord-down, and have both call expand-chord
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2016-09-28T22:05:39Z raydeejay: express that in terms of evaluating expressions if it helps :)
2016-09-28T22:05:40Z trocado: raydeejay: makes sense.
2016-09-28T22:08:10Z trocado: _death: but if it's destructive, why should I use the result, instead of assuming that it will be sorted from then on?
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2016-09-28T22:09:42Z _death: trocado: a "destructive" operator does not necessarily has to (or even can) change the object passed to it.. and if it does, it doesn't necessarily leave it in the expected state
2016-09-28T22:09:55Z _death: s/has/have
2016-09-28T22:10:34Z beaky: http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html is there something like this for lisp
2016-09-28T22:11:15Z _death: beaky: there is a Lispy poem that reminds me of that
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2016-09-28T22:11:55Z _death: beaky: http://cl-su-ai.lisp.se/msg01950.html
2016-09-28T22:15:06Z trocado: _death: is this what you mean?  http://paste.lisp.org/+70KG
2016-09-28T22:15:12Z jasom: trocado: it may trash the value you pass in, but the return value is always the sorted sequence.
2016-09-28T22:15:54Z _death: trocado: yes, this handles issue (ii)
2016-09-28T22:16:46Z _death: trocado: still, the chord object you pass may get corrupted
2016-09-28T22:17:43Z beaky: ello
2016-09-28T22:17:54Z _death: trocado: here the destructiveness is transferred to expand-chord, and the same rule ("use return value") could be implemented
2016-09-28T22:17:57Z trocado: so is there a non-destructive version of sort?
2016-09-28T22:18:10Z beaky: is it possible to expand function definitions / random lambadas and closures from the repl?
2016-09-28T22:18:12Z trocado: or should I copy the object?
2016-09-28T22:18:17Z beaky: (the slime repl*)
2016-09-28T22:18:31Z _death: trocado: copying the object is a possibility.. another is rethinking the representation of a chord
2016-09-28T22:19:59Z trocado: _death: what do you mean?
2016-09-28T22:20:15Z _death: trocado: for example, it may make sense to say a chord is always a sorted list of numbers
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2016-09-28T22:20:56Z _death: trocado: and then all your code should maintain and expect that invariant
2016-09-28T22:21:27Z axion: trocado: (sort (copy-seq list) #'pred)
2016-09-28T22:23:19Z trocado: _death: i see. so all the other functions that may return a chord and pass it to this function have to return it in a sorted version? this wouldn't be very practical in my case, because sometimes cardinality is relevant.
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2016-09-28T22:24:26Z trocado: axion: tks!
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2016-09-28T22:24:35Z _death: trocado: I see
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2016-09-28T22:27:13Z PuercoPop: Does the standard say anything with regards to multiple use clauses in defpackage? The syntax says there can be more than one
2016-09-28T22:28:29Z trocado: _death: anyway, thanks for your help!
2016-09-28T22:28:44Z _death: np
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2016-09-28T22:42:31Z pikmetard: re.
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2016-09-28T22:50:08Z rpg: Request for SLIME help: when SLIME does SWANK-COMPILE-STRING, how does it interpret the string in the right package?
2016-09-28T22:50:26Z pikmetard: is nyet working on cl-geometry any?
2016-09-28T22:50:48Z axion: I believe vydd took over the project, possibly under a fork
2016-09-28T22:51:14Z axion: see https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1028
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2016-09-28T23:00:38Z Seteeri: Hi! So I'm trying to parse a file containing lisp code into lisp data using the read-from-string function, however when it encounters an export form, it finishes reading earlier than I expected. Why is that?
2016-09-28T23:01:34Z Xach: Seteeri: It is a little unusual to use read-from-string. Do you read the entire file into a string?
2016-09-28T23:01:45Z Xach: (unusual for this task, as described)
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2016-09-28T23:02:37Z _death: rpg: your question assumes that it does interpret in the right package.. I don't think that assumption holds
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2016-09-28T23:03:40Z Seteeri: Yes that's correct - I read the file into a buffer.
2016-09-28T23:04:44Z Seteeri: After the export form, are just defun forms.
2016-09-28T23:05:06Z Seteeri: If I comment out the export line, it reads the entire file.
2016-09-28T23:05:23Z Xach: Seteeri: how do you read the file into a buffer?
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2016-09-28T23:05:55Z Seteeri:   (with-open-file (stream path)
2016-09-28T23:05:56Z Seteeri:     (let ((data (make-string (file-length stream))))
2016-09-28T23:05:56Z Seteeri:       (read-sequence data stream)
2016-09-28T23:06:19Z Seteeri: When I print the buffer out, it looks fine
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2016-09-28T23:07:20Z Seteeri: Although, I am aware I can simply read directly from a stream
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2016-09-28T23:08:02Z akkad: looking for feedback on some code https://gist.github.com/e1c9fcf53f18486fcf7c9319f14e6028
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2016-09-28T23:08:57Z pikmetard: axion: thanks.
2016-09-28T23:09:04Z _death: rpg: well, I think what goes on is that in the worker thread that's responsible for compiling the code, *package* is bound to what slime thinks the package is (i.e. according to latest in-package)
2016-09-28T23:10:12Z akkad: sbcl dislikes it, and hangs, but works fine on the rest
2016-09-28T23:10:31Z rpg: _death: that seems to be what happens, since other things are explicitly controlled, but not *PACKAGE*.
2016-09-28T23:10:40Z rpg: I'm hacking on compile-file-from-string.
2016-09-28T23:10:57Z Seteeri: If you do something like: (read-from-string "(export '(f)) (defun f () t)"), it'll only read 14 chars
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2016-09-28T23:12:20Z _death: rpg: it was easy to add (log:info *package*) in sbcl's swank-compile-string impl and see that that is indeed the case ;)
2016-09-28T23:12:40Z rpg: _death: thanks. I didn't know about log:info.
2016-09-28T23:12:53Z _death: rpg: that's just a log4cl operator
2016-09-28T23:13:03Z Xach: Seteeri: you must loop and resume at the point where it left off.
2016-09-28T23:13:12Z Xach: Seteeri: until there is nothing more to read.
2016-09-28T23:13:54Z Seteeri: Ah! I see! It only evaluates one form at a time?
2016-09-28T23:14:02Z Seteeri: er reads one form at a time
2016-09-28T23:14:36Z Seteeri: more specifically, one top-level form at a time
2016-09-28T23:15:20Z Seteeri: and that makes sense because it returns an object(data)
2016-09-28T23:15:41Z Xach: right
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2016-09-28T23:15:59Z Xach: It would be the same if you were reading from a stream (which is a more typical way to do what you are doing)
2016-09-28T23:18:30Z Seteeri: I see. Thanks!
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2016-09-29T00:01:30Z guicho: good morning
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2016-09-29T00:03:57Z guicho: I recently received an email from some anonymous guy because I expose my email on github. He seems to be interested in lisp but does not tell his name nor nickname. Should I respond or just better ignore it?
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2016-09-29T00:05:14Z pillton: I'd probably ignore it.
2016-09-29T00:06:18Z fkac: guicho: Interested in what, exactly? And what does he want from you?
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2016-09-29T00:07:49Z guicho: The very beginning of the email body: "hi,  i am interested in common lisp, and would like to collab with
2016-09-29T00:07:49Z guicho: others.
2016-09-29T00:07:49Z guicho: eg, doing a chip8 simulator.
2016-09-29T00:07:49Z guicho: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIP-8"
2016-09-29T00:09:10Z guicho: not much info... I never received an email like this.
2016-09-29T00:10:30Z White_Flame: the first I'd as is how much CL he knows already
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2016-09-29T00:10:47Z White_Flame: I've done a CHIP-8 emulator in the distant past.  It's not too challenging
2016-09-29T00:11:01Z White_Flame: (that is, if you want to bother at all)
2016-09-29T00:11:15Z guicho: there are some comments on Practical Common Lisp (he's on chap 20).
2016-09-29T00:11:56Z pillton: guicho: There is this page http://cliki.net/Getting%20Started
2016-09-29T00:11:59Z guicho: I asked here because the mail host (fastmail.fm) looks like a spam address, but the content was not.
2016-09-29T00:13:02Z fkac: I wouldn't judge by e-mail provider
2016-09-29T00:13:12Z White_Flame: fastmail has been around for 17 years
2016-09-29T00:14:12Z guicho: White_Flame: oh, thanks. I feel I'm still young on internet...
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2016-09-29T00:17:07Z guicho: pillton: I use the link, thanks.
2016-09-29T00:17:49Z guicho: I decided to reply him with a short message. he seems to want to know where to start after PCL.
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2016-09-29T00:39:01Z guicho: pillton: I changed my mind about the link... it has too many older information.
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2016-09-29T00:41:51Z trocado: what newer information is lacking? just curious...
2016-09-29T00:42:29Z pillton: guicho: Sure. It was only a suggestion. The IRC channels are worth knowing about. What is comp.lang.lisp like today?
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2016-09-29T00:45:18Z guicho: My impression about comp.lang.lisp is that it is just "dead", and serves a role of historical notes, although I don't have much experience with it. I don't even know if I can post something there now..
2016-09-29T00:52:16Z pillton: Well, it appears to have changed a lot in 5 - 10 years.
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2016-09-29T01:23:31Z guicho: pillton: you mean it gets active again? I should check that...
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2016-09-29T01:30:16Z guicho: ok I can see that it is active https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.lang.lisp
2016-09-29T01:32:15Z pillton: guicho: No. I meant that I found it to be useful when I was learning.
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2016-09-29T03:23:20Z klltkr: Any reason why if I compile a file (C-c C-k) in slime that an initialize-instance method isn't called on make-instance, but if I then compile the defmethod on its own (C-c C-c) subsequent make-instances do call the method?
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2016-09-29T03:25:51Z klltkr: Ah...the reason is that I'm an idiot
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2016-09-29T05:05:33Z flip214: when IOLIB:set-io-handler has been called, can I change the callbacks (for eg. :READ) later on=
2016-09-29T05:05:36Z flip214: ?
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2016-09-29T05:35:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-09-29T05:45:28Z akkad: re
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2016-09-29T06:09:30Z akkad: hmm testcase shows I must be holding on to something in my real code. https://gist.github.com/c81bc10a1d5300d3ae512409dfdbb0f3 how can you best hunt for memory leaks in sbcl?
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2016-09-29T06:22:13Z pillton: akkad: SBCL has a statistical profiler. You can do (sb-sprof:with-profiling (:mode :alloc)) to try and find out what is being allocated.
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2016-09-29T07:15:23Z flip214: I can also offer PATH-TO-ROOT for sbcl, that might help too.  http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.debug;a=headblob;f=/source/path-to-root.lisp
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2016-09-29T08:47:35Z beaky: ello
2016-09-29T08:48:00Z raydeejay: o/
2016-09-29T08:48:17Z beaky: what do i do profiling reveals my bottleneck to be from packages ive imported
2016-09-29T08:49:33Z raydeejay: inb4 then fix them :D
2016-09-29T08:50:11Z beaky: is there something like gcc -O2 -omg-optimize for slime and quicklisp and sbcl
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2016-09-29T08:54:53Z loke: beaky: What is omg-optimise?
2016-09-29T08:55:31Z beaky: its a joke flag that gets gcc to emit screaming fast code
2016-09-29T08:55:34Z jdz: same as -Oplease-make-it-run-very-fast?
2016-09-29T08:55:42Z loke: beaky: I see :-)
2016-09-29T08:55:47Z beach: beaky: (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0) (compilation-speed 0)))
2016-09-29T08:55:58Z loke: For SBCL, that would be (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0)))
2016-09-29T08:56:12Z beaky: (safety 0) hmm that sounds unsafe
2016-09-29T08:56:22Z loke: It gives you a few extra cycles, at the expensive of potentially random core dumps :-)
2016-09-29T08:56:34Z beaky: do i put that in my .emacs
2016-09-29T08:56:45Z jdz: (safety 0) is not worth it, just use (safety 1)
2016-09-29T08:56:56Z loke: beaky: yes. for example (aref #(1 2 3) 5) will cause an AVER :-)
2016-09-29T08:57:33Z loke: jdz: Yes of course. But he was aksing for something ridiculous, and (SAFETY 0) is usually ridiculous.
2016-09-29T08:58:03Z beach: beaky: You put that in the files that contain the code you want to be fast.
2016-09-29T08:58:40Z beach: beaky: If you wanted it for everything you do, you would put it in your .sbclrc file, but that is a bad idea.
2016-09-29T08:58:46Z flip214: (safety most-negative-fixnum)
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2016-09-29T08:59:43Z jackdaniel: (safety 3) and (debug 3) are sane values for global init file :)
2016-09-29T09:00:10Z loke: jackdaniel: That's what I use, along with SPEED 0.
2016-09-29T09:00:10Z raydeejay: (sanity 0)
2016-09-29T09:00:15Z jackdaniel: eventually bot hat "2", but that's ddefault I think
2016-09-29T09:00:15Z jackdaniel: 1
2016-09-29T09:00:39Z loke: For production code, (SAEFTY 1) is fine.
2016-09-29T09:01:32Z jackdaniel: ah, net spike. s/bot/both/ s/ddefault/default/ s/1//
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2016-09-29T09:03:35Z beaky: hmm even with it in my sblcr it seems to profile to similar speed
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2016-09-29T09:04:29Z beach: beaky: Not surprising.  To get significant improvements, you need to work on your algorithms and data structures.
2016-09-29T09:04:36Z jackdaniel: you probably need to restart lisp image to catch these new values and recompile your software
2016-09-29T09:04:43Z jackdaniel: and what beach said :)
2016-09-29T09:05:26Z beach: beaky: What is the problem you are trying to solve, and what is the library you are using for it?
2016-09-29T09:06:19Z beaky: im trying to parse a 50mb html file and am using https://github.com/copyleft/cl-html5-parser
2016-09-29T09:07:50Z beaky: and loading the dom with #'parse-html5 takes around 30s on my hamchien
2016-09-29T09:09:56Z beaky: machine8
2016-09-29T09:10:08Z beach: beaky: I don't know what parsing technique it uses, so I am afraid I can't help.
2016-09-29T09:12:45Z HeyFlash: Isn't that a general property of dom parsers (as opposed to more simple html parsers)? I remember using Qt's dom parser and having the same speed problems. Qt even offers an alternative parser for that reason.
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2016-09-29T09:15:11Z beaky: ah
2016-09-29T09:15:31Z beaky: idk i thought parsing was supposed to be screaming fast
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2016-09-29T09:15:52Z beaky: slurping up that 50MB of tag soup in a second
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2016-09-29T09:16:38Z HeyFlash: I found a stackoverflow discussion on the two different Qt parsers with more links in it: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7841293/whats-the-difference-between-qxml-and-qdom
2016-09-29T09:16:49Z HeyFlash: Haven't read any of the links, though.
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2016-09-29T09:21:22Z beach: beaky: That depends on the algorithm used, and how hard the author worked on the performance aspect.
2016-09-29T09:24:25Z beaky: right
2016-09-29T09:25:18Z beaky: hmm seems to be a port of a python-based parser
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2016-09-29T09:26:45Z TMA: beaky: you can get huge performance gains if you cut corners - there are parts of the XML spec that are rarelu used, if you are sure that your files don't use them you might ignore them; then you do not incur the performance hit
2016-09-29T09:27:07Z TMA: beaky: the same might go for HTML5
2016-09-29T09:27:15Z beaky: ah
2016-09-29T09:27:29Z beaky: i guess thats why some other html5 parsers ive used (jsoup) are screaming fast
2016-09-29T09:27:47Z mood: You could try some other parsers, see if they perform better
2016-09-29T09:27:56Z TMA: full, conforming parsers are usually sloooooow
2016-09-29T09:28:00Z mood: Try Plump, for example
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2016-09-29T09:37:09Z shrdlu68: Quoting the bordeaux-threads docs: "Local bindings in the the caller of MAKE-THREAD may or may not be shared with the new thread that it creates: this is implementation-defined. Portable code should not depend on particular behaviour in this case, nor should it assign to such variables without first rebinding them in the new thread." Dopes this mean, in essence, that one should always use
2016-09-29T09:37:14Z shrdlu68: *default-special-bindings*?
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2016-09-29T09:41:44Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: yes
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2016-09-29T09:44:39Z beaky: hmm plump seems to be significantly more speedy
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2016-09-29T09:50:08Z beaky: tho consuming more meory (i guess its not a streaming parser like cl-html5-parser)
2016-09-29T09:51:46Z beaky: i love plump
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2016-09-29T10:05:00Z shrdlu68: fe[nl]ix: How exactly does one use it? Do I just (declare (ignorable foo))?
2016-09-29T10:06:23Z shrdlu68: To quieten the "unused variable" warning?
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2016-09-29T10:17:08Z knobo: Would be really exiting joy if remf would return (values generalized-boolean '(:removed element)) or preferably the other way around, except that would not be backward compatible.
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2016-09-29T10:21:12Z pipping: sort of like a pop()? sounds nice.
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2016-09-29T10:22:45Z pipping: shrdlu68: while you're quoting the bordeaux-threads docs, you might also want to fix the 'the the' in there =)
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2016-09-29T10:25:09Z Grue`: theoretically an implementation can return (:removed element) instead of T as a return value of remf
2016-09-29T10:25:56Z Grue`: you just need to convince your implementation developers to do it
2016-09-29T10:26:39Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: I don't know what you're trying to do
2016-09-29T10:26:42Z pipping: shrdlu68: although I see all quicklisp projects combined have 367 occurrences of 'the the' so maybe you shouldn't bother with fixing one.
2016-09-29T10:27:31Z Grue`: clhs THE
2016-09-29T10:27:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm
2016-09-29T10:28:44Z pipping: Grue`: what's your point?
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2016-09-29T10:29:56Z Grue`: something like "to do X, use the THE special operator"
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2016-09-29T10:30:39Z pipping: Grue`: ag -s -c -w 'the the' quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/ | awk -F: '{ sum += $2 } END { print sum }'
2016-09-29T10:30:50Z pipping: Grue`: should take care of that. still gives me 350.
2016-09-29T10:32:56Z shrdlu68: pipping: Hehe
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2016-09-29T10:36:23Z beaky: damn the cl-html-parse lib is even more screaming fast than
2016-09-29T10:36:28Z beaky: than plump
2016-09-29T10:36:30Z beaky: why is that
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2016-09-29T10:56:36Z pipping: beaky: Gary King probably knew really well what he was doing.
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2016-09-29T11:05:10Z beaky: hmm still twice as slow as jsoup tho :<
2016-09-29T11:05:17Z shrdlu68: How does one pass parameters to the function specified by a call to bordeaux-threads:make-thread? I use the *default-special-bindings* but I'm getting an "unbound variable warning". How do I suppress it? I've tried to (declare (ignore foo)) but that itsels issues the same warning. I've also tried using foo in the lamda-list of the function being called, but I get a warning about the function being called
2016-09-29T11:05:21Z shrdlu68: with no parameters.
2016-09-29T11:07:21Z shrdlu68: Introducing foo locally via let does not work as intended, as it overrrides the bindings made by the caller through *default-special-bindings*.
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2016-09-29T11:08:49Z fe[nl]ix: shrdlu68: ok, so the docs should say "Local dynamic bindings"
2016-09-29T11:09:35Z fe[nl]ix: you're referring to lexical bindings and those work fine
2016-09-29T11:13:22Z shrdlu68: fe[nl]ix: (let (foo) (make-thread (lambda () foo)))
2016-09-29T11:13:52Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2016-09-29T11:14:17Z shrdlu68: fe[nl]ix: Ah, okay.
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2016-09-29T12:15:26Z beaky: why does optimize (space 3) make code run 2x as fast as (speed 3)
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2016-09-29T12:23:38Z SAL9000_: perhaps the space-3 optimised code fits into a cache better?
2016-09-29T12:29:13Z grouzen: shrdlu68: I'm coding next gen version of cl-xmpp - cl-ngxmpp. Currently I implemented almost the core xmpp protocol, and there is a dsl for creating xeps
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2016-09-29T12:34:01Z Xach: grouzen: cool
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2016-09-29T12:38:35Z pipping: wee, ascii are READMEs
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2016-09-29T12:41:40Z fe[nl]ix: pipping: ??
2016-09-29T12:41:53Z pipping: s/are/art/
2016-09-29T12:42:03Z pipping: at https://github.com/grouzen/cl-ngxmpp
2016-09-29T12:42:20Z pipping: confusing typos are my specialty
2016-09-29T12:42:52Z beaky: wow nice gorszen
2016-09-29T12:42:54Z beaky: grouzen*
2016-09-29T12:43:02Z beaky: whats xmpp btw
2016-09-29T12:43:08Z beaky: is it like SIP
2016-09-29T12:43:17Z pipping: beaky: have you heard of jabber?
2016-09-29T12:43:20Z beaky: nope
2016-09-29T12:44:20Z pipping: beaky: you might want to just read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP
2016-09-29T12:45:34Z pipping: grouzen: what do you mean by the TODO item 'Develop a small tool for getting shell over xmpp'?
2016-09-29T12:45:50Z pipping: grouzen: like, remote login into another machine?
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2016-09-29T12:46:05Z jackdaniel: despite being pseudo-XML-protocol I was xmpp's devoted user, but google shamefully embraced, extended and extinguished it
2016-09-29T12:46:42Z beaky: writing lisp with slime feels so different from writing clojure (or even haskell) why is that? like im slapping together pieces of play-dough vs. hammering down lego bricks with square pegs through round holes known as 'frameworks'
2016-09-29T12:47:14Z beaky: hmm so is xmpp like xml-based irc
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2016-09-29T12:48:04Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: it's a bit more complicated than that
2016-09-29T12:48:20Z beaky: what did google do?
2016-09-29T12:48:27Z beaky: google has chat services?
2016-09-29T12:48:29Z fe[nl]ix: the XMPP standard is too anarchic
2016-09-29T12:48:53Z fe[nl]ix: with nobody mandating interoperability, you got none
2016-09-29T12:49:19Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: from my perspective it was just that - people started to use (finally) one protocol, so I could chat with folks on different servers. Then Google started introducing its non-compatible features
2016-09-29T12:49:43Z fe[nl]ix: in that sense, the WiFi consortium(for 802.11*) and ITUT(for GSM to LTE) are doing much better
2016-09-29T12:49:43Z jackdaniel: (after people hurried to use gmail, because it's e-mail *and* jabber)
2016-09-29T12:49:54Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: everybody had non-compatible features
2016-09-29T12:50:02Z fe[nl]ix: that's the problem with XMPP
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2016-09-29T12:50:33Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: very few people ever had a clue about what Jabber is
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2016-09-29T12:50:52Z fe[nl]ix: so I doubt that more than .1% of all Gmail users switched because of it
2016-09-29T12:51:22Z jackdaniel: my expericence show the opposite, but lets stay with our opinions on that matter, I don't care enough about xmpp anymore to argue about that ;)
2016-09-29T12:52:02Z fe[nl]ix: I'm talking about the overall XMPP situation
2016-09-29T12:52:18Z fe[nl]ix: your experience, as any other person's, is just an insignificant datapoint
2016-09-29T12:53:01Z jackdaniel: right, good we have objective observers here :)
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2016-09-29T13:00:24Z pipping: jackdaniel: I think fe[nl]ix was including himself there. neither your or his user experience are likely to be statistically relevant.
2016-09-29T13:02:11Z jackdaniel: I believe he presented us with the true nature of the XMPP's issue, but I may have misread that ;)
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2016-09-29T13:15:45Z superancetre: Hi, there is something i dont understand. I do (ql:quickload :package-name) in emacs with slime and it says everything's fine, then i go in the sbcl REPL cause i'm dealing with ncurses, and the same command throw an error. The error is something like: CLASS NOT FOUND ERROR, there is no such class as PACKAGENAME::CLASSNAME. Does anybody got an idea on how to debug this? thx
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2016-09-29T13:22:39Z dlowe: superancetre: the system name isn't necessarily the same as the package name
2016-09-29T13:22:54Z dlowe: It usually is
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2016-09-29T13:23:35Z dlowe: or is this a difference between sbcl-under-slime and sbcl-no-slime
2016-09-29T13:24:42Z dlowe: you may also have a ~/.swank.lisp file that's doing some initialization
2016-09-29T13:25:05Z superancetre: dlowe: I dont think it is a problem of system/package name as it's one of my system, it was loading fine this morning, i modified some classes and then here i am.
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2016-09-29T13:25:19Z superancetre: dlowe: i'll look if i have one such file
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2016-09-29T13:26:10Z dlowe: I would look for the class name using apropos
2016-09-29T13:28:20Z raydeejay: when you say "go to the sbcl REPL"... what does that mean?
2016-09-29T13:29:02Z raydeejay: you are connected to the running sbcl, right? xD
2016-09-29T13:30:17Z dlowe: I assume (perhaps wrongly) that they mean that they've started another repl in a terminal
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2016-09-29T13:30:31Z superancetre: raydeejay: i mean opening a terminal, typing "sbcl" and then quickload the system i want.
2016-09-29T13:30:37Z raydeejay goes to prepare lunch
2016-09-29T13:30:49Z superancetre: raydeejay: more like dlowe assume.
2016-09-29T13:31:21Z dlowe: are you using source control? can you revert to an earlier version and see if it works?
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2016-09-29T13:34:22Z superancetre: dlowe: yes i'll do that. just it seemed really odd. It was working fine this morning so source control is an option yes.
2016-09-29T13:35:02Z dlowe: well, you wanted tips for debugging. If the earlier version works or doesn't work, you know at least what is to blame
2016-09-29T13:36:16Z superancetre: dlowe: good point
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2016-09-29T13:45:57Z superancetre: thanks guys dlowe & raydeejay
2016-09-29T13:46:05Z dlowe: found something?
2016-09-29T13:46:34Z superancetre: not yet, somethings wrong between old commit and now but i did not found what yet
2016-09-29T13:46:41Z superancetre: but ol commit works
2016-09-29T13:46:44Z superancetre: old*
2016-09-29T13:47:07Z dlowe: cool, now you can diff, and look at it. If it's not obvious, start adding back the changes one by one until it breaks.
2016-09-29T13:47:26Z superancetre: also, should i connect to the running sbcl like raydeejay mention before? is that better?
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2016-09-29T13:54:26Z dlowe: it's probably a lot easier.
2016-09-29T13:54:33Z dlowe: you start the sbcl in the terminal, then load swank
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2016-09-29T13:54:44Z dlowe: then use M-x slime-connect to connect to the already-running sbcl
2016-09-29T13:54:56Z dlowe: then you can do your debugging in slime, but execute it in the terminal
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2016-09-29T13:57:24Z superancetre:  i see, i'll try it
2016-09-29T13:59:31Z atgreen: does anybody have details on potential conflict between SBCL and address space layout randomization (ASLR)?  The most promising references on the web link to gmane archives for details, and those are gone.
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2016-09-29T14:15:37Z pipping: atgreen: you might want to ask that in #sbcl
2016-09-29T14:17:06Z atgreen: pipping, ok, thanks.
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2016-09-29T14:23:28Z solene: atgreen: I'm using sbcl on OpenBSD which use ASLR by default I think and it's working correctly
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2016-09-29T14:30:45Z atgreen: solene, I'm running in a locked down container environment, where it can't disable ASLR
2016-09-29T14:30:56Z pipping: atgreen: if you're running sbcl through docker, the comments in the README of https://github.com/daewok/lisp-devel-docker might be relevant
2016-09-29T14:31:13Z atgreen: they are... but they don't explain the problem.
2016-09-29T14:31:32Z atgreen: plus, they assume admin credentials on the container host
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2016-09-29T14:33:01Z pipping: right. but that's not a severe limitation. anyone who gets to run docker images is a privileged user anyway
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2016-09-29T14:35:35Z joshe: solene: on openbsd, sbcl places it's dynamic space and such at virtual addresses which don't (currently) conflict with ASLR
2016-09-29T14:36:30Z pipping: atgreen: (see e.g. https://www.projectatomic.io/blog/2015/08/why-we-dont-let-non-root-users-run-docker-in-centos-fedora-or-rhel/)
2016-09-29T14:37:29Z pipping: atgreen: or https://docs.docker.com/engine/security/security/#docker-daemon-attack-surface
2016-09-29T14:37:35Z beaky: ello
2016-09-29T14:37:47Z beaky: how do i define a new function in a foreign package
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2016-09-29T14:39:25Z Xach: beaky: functions are named by a symbol, and you can use symbols like foo::bar, foo:bar, or bar as necessary.
2016-09-29T14:39:47Z Xach: beaky: "foreign" is usually reserved to mean "not lisp", as in interfacing with C libraries
2016-09-29T14:39:50Z beaky: oh
2016-09-29T14:40:03Z atgreen: yes... author of libffi here <---
2016-09-29T14:40:05Z beaky: damn i used only 1 colon
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2016-09-29T14:40:14Z beaky: foo:x instead of foo::x this whole time
2016-09-29T14:40:20Z Xach: beaky: using two colons is a sign that you are going against good package practices.
2016-09-29T14:40:34Z Xach: beaky: which is sometimes warranted, but not very often
2016-09-29T14:40:44Z beaky: oh
2016-09-29T14:41:22Z Xach: beaky: what prompts the desire to use a symbol in another package for the function name?
2016-09-29T14:41:23Z atgreen: pipping, thanks.  I'm aware of those links/docs.  I am wondering about running SBCL in a hosted container environment, where admin credentials are not available to turn off ASLR for the container
2016-09-29T14:41:53Z beaky: im using https://github.com/AccelerationNet/css-selectors and am implementing a new pseudo selecotr
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2016-09-29T14:46:36Z beach: beaky: How does it follow that you must use the library package?
2016-09-29T14:47:07Z beaky: hmm doesnt it say to define new selectors under :pseudo
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2016-09-29T14:49:34Z beach: It appears to be saying that, yes.  But that is some very strange practice.
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2016-09-29T14:51:08Z beach: I wonder where this organization is a requirement, or is otherwise taken advantage of.
2016-09-29T14:52:04Z beaky: ye i wonder whats the normal way its done
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2016-09-29T14:52:35Z beach: I wonder whether the remark is meant for the maintainers.
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2016-09-29T14:54:08Z beaky: a
2016-09-29T14:54:48Z beach: beaky: Normally, the package of a the name of a function should not matter for that function to work properly.  The only reason I can see for this way of doing it would be if he somehow loops over all names in the package in order to get to all pseudo selectors.
2016-09-29T14:55:34Z beaky: ye i guess it explicitly digs in the :pseudo package https://github.com/AccelerationNet/css-selectors/blob/master/src/compile.lisp#L144
2016-09-29T14:55:47Z beaky: as the only reason why :D
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2016-09-29T14:57:29Z beach: Where do you see that?
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2016-09-29T15:00:06Z beach: Ah, yes, I see it.
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2016-09-29T15:00:53Z beach: I guess the only solution is to do what you did, with `::'.
2016-09-29T15:01:27Z beach: ... or something essentially equivalent.
2016-09-29T15:02:09Z beach: That doesn't look like good programming practice to me.
2016-09-29T15:02:38Z beaky: i guess the lib authors had their good reasons :D
2016-09-29T15:02:39Z raydeejay: smells of Smalltalk
2016-09-29T15:02:50Z beach: beaky: Don't count on it.
2016-09-29T15:03:01Z raydeejay: where it's rather common to "enhance" other packages from yours
2016-09-29T15:03:12Z beaky: hmm is smalltalk like lisp
2016-09-29T15:03:19Z raydeejay: heh
2016-09-29T15:03:25Z raydeejay: depends on the time of day you ask me
2016-09-29T15:03:26Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-29T15:03:30Z dlowe: beaky: no.
2016-09-29T15:04:10Z dlowe: If you want a comparison, python and ruby are like smalltalk.
2016-09-29T15:04:43Z dwchandler: I think smalltalk people would object to that ;-)
2016-09-29T15:05:18Z raydeejay: somehow it seems strange that a language where everything is a sexp and a language where everything is an object are more dissimilar than a language where everything is an object, and two languages where nothing of the sort happens
2016-09-29T15:05:22Z dlowe: smalltalk is better designed, but the underlying ideas are identical
2016-09-29T15:05:34Z dlowe: you're conflating two "everythings"
2016-09-29T15:06:37Z rpg: Smalltalk has that weird thing where the state of the image is everything, and the actual program text seems to have a sort of ambiguous status.
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2016-09-29T15:07:34Z rpg: BTW, what's the distinction between FDEFINITION and SYMBOL-FUNCTION? I looked at the CLHS, but nothing leapt out at me.
2016-09-29T15:07:56Z dlowe: The lisp language is composed of s-expressions of cons cells, symbols, strings, and numbers, but we have lots more data structures and modularizations than objects.
2016-09-29T15:08:02Z dlowe: Also, functions.
2016-09-29T15:08:12Z rpg: ah. I see, "FDEFINITION accepts arguments other than just symbols."
2016-09-29T15:08:12Z beach: rpg: fdefinition can take names such as (SETF SYMBOL)
2016-09-29T15:08:44Z beach: rpg: SYMBOL-FUNCTION should be considered obsolete.
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2016-09-29T15:12:09Z raydeejay: dlowe: from my point of view, things like "if returns a value" are more fundamental differences
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2016-09-29T15:12:53Z dlowe: oh. That seems pretty minor to me. You don't design your programs differently because of it.
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2016-09-29T15:16:25Z beaky: i wonder does lisp influence program design
2016-09-29T15:16:39Z beach: Of course.
2016-09-29T15:17:15Z beach: beaky: The object system gives you way many more design choices than most other programming languages.
2016-09-29T15:17:37Z beaky: ye i guess i reach for clos as my golden hammer
2016-09-29T15:17:55Z raydeejay: dlowe: I would say that it has an influence even design-wise, but right now my mind is somewhat full of other stuff to reason about it xD
2016-09-29T15:18:03Z beaky: (and macros as my second golden hammer? :D)
2016-09-29T15:18:18Z beach: beaky: The condition system is another.
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2016-09-29T15:18:51Z rpg: I really learned to appreciate the condition system when writing code that had to continue running for weeks or months at a time.
2016-09-29T15:19:08Z dlowe: Also, untyped variables, so many functions can operate on multiple types of data without declarations.
2016-09-29T15:19:27Z rpg: dlowe: I'm having mixed feelings about this one nowadays.
2016-09-29T15:19:41Z rpg: sometimes I would really like the compiler to tell me when I am doing something stupid.
2016-09-29T15:20:15Z dlowe: rpg: yeah, my point is that it affects design.
2016-09-29T15:20:25Z rpg: When it takes five minutes to get to the point in the program where a trivial type error is raised.
2016-09-29T15:20:38Z dlowe: I've had mixed feelings about both for a while.
2016-09-29T15:20:41Z rpg: dlowe: Yes, that is certainly true.
2016-09-29T15:20:50Z raydeejay: do any of you have a concrete example of this?
2016-09-29T15:21:02Z rpg: I'm not ready for the full bondage wear of an ML-family language, though.
2016-09-29T15:21:19Z raydeejay: I read about it a lot, but I've never seen an example where the untypedness caused major trouble
2016-09-29T15:21:40Z rpg: raydeejay: the typing problems.  I encounter them all the time, but I have never bothered to write up anything about it.
2016-09-29T15:21:49Z beach: It is not "untyped"; it is "dynamically typed".
2016-09-29T15:22:05Z raydeejay: well yes, and values have types, not variables
2016-09-29T15:22:19Z raydeejay has no academic hat, only glasses and a beard
2016-09-29T15:22:28Z rpg: Consider a program that runs for five minutes, then wants to write out results to a function that some slob wrote to take only filename strings (because it uses an OS call).
2016-09-29T15:22:45Z dlowe: well, depends on how well you can afford an unexpected condition. It kind of depends on how far away the developer is from the program.
2016-09-29T15:22:47Z rpg: You get there after five minutes and boom! you passed a pathname to something that would only accept a string.
2016-09-29T15:23:09Z raydeejay: ok, so here the type would have helped if you compiled it
2016-09-29T15:23:20Z rpg: This is one of the reasons I have stuck to using Allegro instead of SBCL for development: I'm more likely to be able to fix the problem and continue, instead of having to abort and start over.
2016-09-29T15:23:52Z dlowe: rpg: I have this fantasy of writing a static type checker for SBCL that ignores the source code and instead checks assertions across the whole image.
2016-09-29T15:24:08Z raydeejay: I was thinking more on the lines of a problem that would have appeared at runtime anyway in both statically and dynamically typed
2016-09-29T15:24:20Z dlowe: So you can load your whole program into memory, run the checker, and it emits "ERROR: tab A does not go into slot B"
2016-09-29T15:24:40Z raydeejay: um
2016-09-29T15:24:57Z raydeejay: what if you have a function that produces either a number or a string?
2016-09-29T15:25:30Z rpg: raydeejay: I have had those, but I confess I haven't written any of them up.  Typically this occurs when there's a complex relationship R(x, y, z) that must hold in your program, so that typing x, y, and z separately doesn't catch the problem.
2016-09-29T15:25:53Z dlowe: raydeejay: then it skips checking that.
2016-09-29T15:26:12Z rpg: raydeejay: a powerful type inference system should be able to handle at least some disjunctions.
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2016-09-29T15:26:34Z dlowe: the nice thing about an image-wide type checker is that you could theoretically make arbitrarily complex type annotations
2016-09-29T15:26:51Z rpg: raydeejay: esp if it's something like "a number that means a fileno" or "a string that names a file."
2016-09-29T15:26:58Z dlowe: it could be a superset of common lisp's types
2016-09-29T15:27:23Z rpg: You should have a type (something a Java person would call an interface) that is something like "file-designator"
2016-09-29T15:28:21Z rpg: dlowe: I have often wondered if it would be possible to take a H-M type checker and run it over bits of a Lisp program.  I've always suspected that there was a type checker like that hiding somewhere on github, but I have never found one.
2016-09-29T15:28:41Z dlowe: rpg: typed racket has one. Not CL, of course.
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2016-09-29T15:29:57Z rpg: Off to a different room... back in a second
2016-09-29T15:30:07Z raydeejay reads
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2016-09-29T15:31:08Z raydeejay: ok, so basically what I was thinking, skip it :)
2016-09-29T15:31:31Z raydeejay: feels close enough to my vague idea of my ideal programming language having "optional static typing"
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2016-09-29T15:59:37Z attila_lendvai: the problem is the usual: experts of X think that X solves the world equation... typechecking algorithms should be libraries, and programmers should decide where they want to enforce what at compile time.
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2016-09-29T16:08:27Z dwchandler: attila_lendvai: to *some* degree that's already true, even in today's H-M langs. You can intermingle variables for force and volume, if you only have them specified as real numbers. I.e., if you don't *use* the type system then you don't get the enforcements of the type system.
2016-09-29T16:09:21Z dwchandler: Of course if you're doing that in haskell or ocaml then people are going to look at you funny
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2016-09-29T16:39:42Z pipping: Is there a keyword to push to a list inside (loop)? I don't want to reverse the list afterwards and using :collect combined with reverse feels a bit silly
2016-09-29T16:40:27Z Grue`: do (push ???)
2016-09-29T16:41:01Z PuercoPop: attila_lendvai: how would that fit in the common workflow? Do you have a library that implements parts of the compiler? build time options?
2016-09-29T16:41:01Z raydeejay: :with a-list then :do push
2016-09-29T16:41:10Z pipping: Grue`: not a keyword! plus I then need an additional or :with
2016-09-29T16:41:32Z Grue`: not being a keyword is a feature
2016-09-29T16:41:34Z raydeejay: well there's :append
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2016-09-29T16:41:47Z raydeejay: and nconc
2016-09-29T16:41:56Z jasom: pipping: just use "with result do (push) finally (return result)"
2016-09-29T16:42:00Z pipping: raydeejay: :append would probably be very inefficient and not be what I need :P
2016-09-29T16:42:03Z jasom: raydeejay: those don't work either for this case
2016-09-29T16:42:15Z Grue`: why do you need it to be a keyword?
2016-09-29T16:42:55Z pipping: right. basically i wanted to know if there's a nicer way to do it than ":with result :do (push) :finally (return result)".
2016-09-29T16:43:03Z pipping: but I guess the answer is "no" then
2016-09-29T16:43:05Z sjl: it's not loop, but iterate's collect clause  has (at beginning) option that does what you want.
2016-09-29T16:43:18Z sjl: (iterate (for i from 1 to 3) (collect i at beginning))
2016-09-29T16:43:37Z sjl: unsure if anyone's extended loop in any specific implementation with something similar
2016-09-29T16:43:38Z Grue`: you can use "&aux result" in the function lambda list instead of "with"
2016-09-29T16:43:51Z pipping: grml. of course iterate has what I want. darn.
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2016-09-29T16:45:30Z sjl: yeah sometimes I hate adding the extra dependency, but iterate is just so nice
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2016-09-29T16:55:05Z beaky: ello
2016-09-29T16:55:07Z beaky: how do i cimpare to keywords
2016-09-29T16:55:14Z beaky: compare two keywords*
2016-09-29T16:55:26Z beaky: lisp seems to have like 10 equality functions :D
2016-09-29T16:55:36Z beaky: eq, eql, equalp, =, ...
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2016-09-29T17:06:17Z Grue`: eql works
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2016-09-29T17:10:42Z mordocai: beaky: eq is going to work for keywords and is the fastest since it just compares identity.
2016-09-29T17:10:50Z beaky: ah
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2016-09-29T17:17:27Z Grue`: EQ is generally discouraged from being used because of its implementation-dependent behavior
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2016-09-29T17:20:38Z Xach: Discouraged on non-eq objects, that is.
2016-09-29T17:20:57Z Xach: object eq-ness is a useful thing to test sometimes.
2016-09-29T17:21:13Z Xach: don't eq on numbers
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2016-09-29T17:22:10Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: hi
2016-09-29T17:24:03Z jasom: there is a style that always prefers eql to eq, as they differ only in implementation-dependent behavior.
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2016-09-29T17:43:38Z akkad: pillton: thanks.
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2016-09-29T18:15:42Z PuercoPop: ebrasca: hi
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2016-09-29T18:17:18Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: I started implement mising functions on xscreensaver.
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2016-09-29T18:21:13Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: Can I leave some "(... ;;4 SETofSCREENSAVEREVENT event mask) ?
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2016-09-29T18:24:00Z PuercoPop: ebrasca: You mean some comments to note that a literal value comes from a predefined constant?
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2016-09-29T18:25:29Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: Comments to sow what I don't understand from document.
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2016-09-29T18:28:41Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: I don't know how to implement that line.
2016-09-29T18:28:59Z PuercoPop: ebrasca: I guess so. It may be better to leave a larger note saying XXX: I'm from reading the stanrd I think <foo> means <bar> but I may be wrong or something. Or you can note it and then ask someone to read over the code
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2016-09-29T18:31:13Z steventog: ahh it's a wonderful day
2016-09-29T18:31:23Z steventog: ahh it's a wonderfu lday
2016-09-29T18:31:31Z steventog: bobby flay
2016-09-29T18:31:40Z mordocai: steventog: We get it, your life is better than ours. Jeesh. :P
2016-09-29T18:32:49Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: Ok when I finish it. I pass my code to you.
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2016-09-29T18:35:08Z PuercoPop nods
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2016-09-29T18:48:30Z beaky: ello
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2016-09-29T19:51:07Z ebrasca: PuercoPop: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/pull/60
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2016-09-29T19:58:12Z PuercoPop: ebrasca: I'll go over it
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2016-09-29T20:36:29Z beaky: hmm i wonder why something like CLOS is seldom replicated in other languages
2016-09-29T20:37:01Z beaky: even new langauges like go or swift use simula-style oop
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2016-09-29T20:38:40Z knobo: Grue`: except that programs using a remf returing the removed object would not be portable.
2016-09-29T20:39:16Z knobo: My irc chat client is lagging about 10 hours, you see.
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2016-09-29T20:46:11Z phoe: Grue`: I tend to use EQ when I will be strictly comparing references.
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2016-09-29T20:46:42Z phoe: Not numbers, not chars - but structs or CLOS objects.
2016-09-29T20:46:42Z phoe: So basically pointer comparison.
2016-09-29T20:47:07Z mordocai: beaky: Idk personally. CLOS is my favorite object system i've used (I haven't used smalltalk, but have used smalltalk inspired languages)
2016-09-29T20:49:13Z PuercoPop: mordocai: Smalltalk imle is about the experience. Pharo has one of the best interactive experience
2016-09-29T20:52:08Z beaky: is pharo like slime for smalltalk
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2016-09-29T20:53:25Z phoe: EQ is what I use when I want to remind myself that I won't be comparing any numbers or chars here.
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2016-09-29T20:53:35Z phoe: EQL is something I never type because it's the default everywhere.
2016-09-29T20:53:49Z phoe: EQUAL is when I want to dive into sequences.
2016-09-29T20:53:59Z phoe: EQUALP is not something I use.
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2016-09-29T20:54:11Z phoe: And for specific types, =, CHAR=, STRING= and so on.
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2016-09-29T20:56:31Z phoe: Pharo is more of a GUI toolkit, but it does have some slime-like features.
2016-09-29T20:57:03Z phoe: And your objects start behaving the moment you tell them to, so it's pretty interactive as well.
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2016-09-29T20:58:10Z phoe: But then again - I've never had much fun with it.
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2016-09-29T20:59:08Z PuercoPop: beaky: no, Pharo is an implementation of Smalltalk, like SBCL. But it comes with its own IDE, something like what Hemlock would be (?)
2016-09-29T20:59:54Z beaky: a
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2016-09-29T21:00:34Z beaky: i love objects
2016-09-29T21:00:41Z raydeejay: I knew I had seen that nick somewhere
2016-09-29T21:00:45Z raydeejay points at PuercoPop
2016-09-29T21:00:57Z dlowe: It was once thought that systems like Pharo would be the way everyone interacted with computers.
2016-09-29T21:00:59Z rpg: phoe: EQUALP is what you need if you are comparing structs
2016-09-29T21:01:24Z rpg: rpg: My mileage varies: EQUAL is what I never use.
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2016-09-29T21:04:13Z beaky: btw why does lisp print things in all caps
2016-09-29T21:04:17Z beaky: like sql or cobol
2016-09-29T21:05:08Z beaky: (and seems symbols aren't case-sensitive either?)
2016-09-29T21:05:15Z H4ns: symbols are case sensitive
2016-09-29T21:05:31Z beaky: oh
2016-09-29T21:05:38Z H4ns: (EQ '|foo| 'FOO) => NIL
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2016-09-29T21:05:58Z H4ns: it is just that the reader, by default, converts symbols to upper case.
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2016-09-29T21:10:25Z mordocai: beaky: I thought practical common lisp went into that at some point. If it didn't, Common Lisp Recipes probably does
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2016-09-29T21:11:11Z akkad: h4ns: do you recommend any lightweight toolkit for hunchentoot that would be most similar to say Sinatra?
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2016-09-29T21:11:27Z raydeejay: it's something to keep in mind when making symbols from strings
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2016-09-29T21:12:55Z mordocai: akkad: I haven't used sinatra much but how do you feel about caveman2?
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2016-09-29T21:13:28Z akkad: mordocai: will take a look. last time I was looking around clack seemed closest
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2016-09-29T21:13:48Z mordocai: akkad: Yeah, caveman2 is on top of clack. There's also ningle which has less built-in.
2016-09-29T21:13:58Z mordocai: It's all fukamachi's stack so yeah...
2016-09-29T21:15:30Z akkad: gotcha. thnaks
2016-09-29T21:15:44Z akkad: sounds more complete than thinatra
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2016-09-29T21:22:53Z PuercoPop: akkad: there is https://github.com/inaimathi/cl-handlers (runs on hunchentoo and clack)
2016-09-29T21:23:56Z akkad: nice
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2016-09-29T21:41:37Z beaky: damn a few days of using common lisp and im already loving it
2016-09-29T21:41:47Z beaky: lisp stacktraces are hell of a lot better than clojure's
2016-09-29T21:41:51Z akkad: it's addictive
2016-09-29T21:41:59Z akkad: beaky: slime?
2016-09-29T21:42:01Z beaky: ye
2016-09-29T21:42:31Z akkad: (slime-inspect) is amazing.
2016-09-29T21:43:37Z beaky: yes when clojure's stack explodes, you just get "NullPointerException at RT.java line:1252398572". when lisp blows up you get "here's the exact offending object, what would you like to do"
2016-09-29T21:44:09Z beaky: and even dig in and inspect the entire state yourself
2016-09-29T21:44:24Z akkad: yeah... those are very ugly.
2016-09-29T21:44:39Z akkad: had to write a prettify script to ensure one could parse it more easily
2016-09-29T21:44:54Z akkad: plus uberjars are not as much fun as I was expecting
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2016-09-29T21:48:51Z akkad: since one can't unload/reset state in the repl, would ephemeral packages fit that role? e.g. make a temp package and include what you need, run your test, then pop into new ephemeral package created with same stuff to ensure a clean slate on state?
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2016-09-29T21:52:45Z mordocai: akkad: If everything is playing nice that'd probably work.
2016-09-29T21:53:00Z mordocai: Theoretically you could do global stuff that wouldn't play nice though
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2016-09-29T22:01:06Z akkad: kk
2016-09-29T22:01:42Z akkad thinks like a rollback would be nice as a restart option. (:1 jump back to last safe state)
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2016-09-29T22:14:20Z mechaniputer: Novice here looking for advice. Suppose I've got an arbitrarily nested list, and I want to return a flat, nonredundant list of all of the atoms that are not the first element of their innermost sub-list. For example, '(a b (c d) (e (f g))) ==> '(b d g) Ideas?
2016-09-29T22:15:04Z ebrasca is now known as ebrasca-afk
2016-09-29T22:15:46Z akkad: flatten
2016-09-29T22:16:03Z akkad: mechaniputer: https://gist.github.com/9d1057b6841eec7d7202671dcb029696
2016-09-29T22:16:16Z akkad: cribbed from somewhere
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2016-09-29T22:17:42Z mechaniputer: akkad: Thanks but that's not quite right. I want to omit every atom that is the car of the innermost list that it is a member of.
2016-09-29T22:20:44Z rpg: mechaniputer: It sounds like your professor is trying to get you to write a routine that does tree-recursion.  Look for examples of tree recursion to base your answer on.
2016-09-29T22:21:07Z mechaniputer: rpg: ok
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2016-09-29T22:23:21Z mechaniputer: rpg: See, it's tricky because it seems hardest to omit the first element. A flattener would make more sense to me but having to eliminate elements based on their position within the innermost list is a mindbender to me right now.
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2016-09-29T22:24:37Z rpg: I would suggest that you focus on eliminating those elements first -- write a function that computes that -- and then just call FLATTEN on what you get back.
2016-09-29T22:24:56Z mechaniputer: rpg: Ok, I like that idea.
2016-09-29T22:25:00Z rpg: And think about your list as a tree, not as a list.
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2016-09-29T23:06:33Z beaky: i love how theres so many car and cdr functions
2016-09-29T23:06:53Z beaky: car, cdr, cadr, cddr, caddr, ...
2016-09-29T23:07:03Z akkad: nth/elt are your friends :P
2016-09-29T23:08:03Z beaky: lisp is so warty its awesome
2016-09-29T23:08:47Z akkad: yeah... best to learn the ins and outs of high level packages, like alexandria
2016-09-29T23:09:08Z akkad: for some
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2016-09-29T23:10:07Z raydeejay: cadadr and friends have their uses
2016-09-29T23:10:18Z raydeejay: so do first and third
2016-09-29T23:10:23Z raydeejay: and the others
2016-09-29T23:10:40Z raydeejay: but a bit more consistency would be nice, yeah :)
2016-09-29T23:10:54Z akkad: if you get past elements > number of fingers, it's time to stop :P
2016-09-29T23:11:44Z raydeejay: if you are writing the other end, sure, rethink it
2016-09-29T23:12:20Z raydeejay: but sometimes you just need the seventh item of a list, and the clearest way to say that is (seventh list)
2016-09-29T23:13:03Z XachX_: Brucio defined cddd...ddr up to 99.
2016-09-29T23:13:39Z raydeejay: I think my threshold is 3 car cadr cdar, or first seventh fourth...
2016-09-29T23:13:48Z raydeejay: sounds like... BF
2016-09-29T23:15:36Z pipping: abracadadr!
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2016-09-29T23:15:52Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-29T23:17:05Z pipping is upset that the CLHS doesn't have nth-cdr
2016-09-29T23:17:24Z pipping: sorry, I meant to say
2016-09-29T23:17:32Z pipping is upset that the CLHS doesn't have setf for nthcdr
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2016-09-29T23:19:30Z pipping: and yes you can use (setf (cdr (nthcdr (1- ...)))) but that won't work for n = 0 :/
2016-09-29T23:19:35Z raydeejay: use one of those cdddddddddddddddddddddr that XachX_ mentioned
2016-09-29T23:20:21Z Xach: my mistake
2016-09-29T23:20:56Z attila_lendvai: PuercoPop: remember, the compiler is just a function... :)
2016-09-29T23:21:06Z pipping: raydeejay: yes, that will work, but only if you know the n when you're writing the code and if n <= 99
2016-09-29T23:21:30Z Xach: brucio defined 99th/(setf 99th), 61th/(setf 61th), etc.
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2016-09-29T23:22:01Z raydeejay: that is incredibly more useful xD
2016-09-29T23:22:21Z pipping: 'twas a cold winter's day
2016-09-29T23:22:26Z pipping: and they were all written by hand
2016-09-29T23:22:40Z raydeejay: literally, in paper and then OCRed
2016-09-29T23:22:45Z pipping: and (setf 63rd) had an off-by-one bug
2016-09-29T23:24:10Z rpg_: pipping: CLHS says you can use NTHCDR with SETF
2016-09-29T23:24:18Z rpg_: 11.15.1
2016-09-29T23:24:42Z pipping: The function (SETF NTHCDR) is undefined,
2016-09-29T23:24:46Z pipping: is what sbcl gives me
2016-09-29T23:24:53Z pipping: (let ((x (list 1 2 3 4 5))) (setf (nthcdr 3 x) nil) x)
2016-09-29T23:25:10Z raydeejay: yeah, been there too
2016-09-29T23:25:45Z beaky: is mapcan like haskell's >>=
2016-09-29T23:26:42Z pipping: [..] and its name is reserved by ANSI CL so that even if it were defined later, the code doing so would not be portable [..]
2016-09-29T23:26:57Z raydeejay: pipping: http://pastebin.com/2rCxTeUV
2016-09-29T23:26:59Z Bike: beaky: on lists, yeah, though with side effects.
2016-09-29T23:27:05Z beaky: oh
2016-09-29T23:27:14Z beaky: this whole time i didnt know mapcan had side effects haha :<
2016-09-29T23:27:22Z rpg_: pipping: I was using Dash to read the CLHS. Trying to find a URL
2016-09-29T23:27:32Z beaky: no wonder ive been having some weirdness
2016-09-29T23:27:46Z attila_lendvai: beaky: yeah, that's a special pain of CL, you need to keep it in mind about every function
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2016-09-29T23:28:28Z attila_lendvai: but then you can have a lib that isolates them into separate packages, and only :use pure functions... someone even did a project like that
2016-09-29T23:28:57Z pipping: maybe http://comp.lang.lisp.narkive.com/ztdrqrJ0/why-nthcdr-doesn-t-have-a-setf-er#post12 is relevant
2016-09-29T23:28:59Z raydeejay: is it really that bad? if you use the function regularly, you know it, and if you don't you *should* read the documentation for it...
2016-09-29T23:28:59Z beaky: wow nice
2016-09-29T23:30:06Z attila_lendvai: raydeejay: sure, and I should know japanese, too... but my life is too short for all that.
2016-09-29T23:30:48Z pipping: rpg_: I can't find a section 11.15.1
2016-09-29T23:30:50Z attila_lendvai: ...which translates to: I'll make unwitting shortcuts and shoot myself in the foot. similarly that's why guns have safety switches...
2016-09-29T23:31:14Z pipping: raydeejay: you cannot just make up CLHS sections that say what you want them to say!
2016-09-29T23:31:33Z rpg_: pipping: I'm looking for it.... Looks like when they reformatted for Dash they borked the numbering.
2016-09-29T23:32:18Z raydeejay: pipping: if you need it, the pastebin I linked has code for a replacement of nthcdr, I don't remember from where, but it was useful for me
2016-09-29T23:32:28Z raydeejay: I probably didn't need it for n=0
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2016-09-29T23:33:08Z raydeejay: attila_lendvai: you really should read the documentation for a function you don't know... it doesn't take a life
2016-09-29T23:33:18Z pipping: raydeejay: well it does handle the n=0 case
2016-09-29T23:33:23Z raydeejay: CL is about 900 functions
2016-09-29T23:33:28Z raydeejay: pipping: oh good
2016-09-29T23:33:36Z raydeejay: I know it works for my use case
2016-09-29T23:33:37Z pipping: raydeejay: see line 19
2016-09-29T23:33:55Z raydeejay: ahhh right
2016-09-29T23:33:58Z rpg_: pipping: I can find a statement that NTH is a place, but not NTHCDR
2016-09-29T23:34:08Z beaky: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12233268 hmm is it really true that lisp doesn't have compound values? i thought structs or objects were compound values
2016-09-29T23:34:33Z raydeejay: rpg_: don't bother, we're not the only two to have the issue... it should be there but it's not, nevermind why xD
2016-09-29T23:34:46Z Bike: beaky: in the post they say those don't count because they are mutable.
2016-09-29T23:34:58Z raydeejay: um
2016-09-29T23:35:02Z raydeejay: what languages qualify then?
2016-09-29T23:35:12Z rpg_: raydeejay: I'm trying to figure out now WTF is in the Dash version of the CLHS!
2016-09-29T23:35:14Z raydeejay: ah,  "functional"
2016-09-29T23:35:21Z attila_lendvai: raydeejay: translating your principle: people should really make sure for me that functions with side effects stick out from the rest. trust me, I read the clhs, and I learned that it's a minefiled where I need to keep in mind that sort is destructive, but remove is not, but I should watch out for delete...
2016-09-29T23:35:22Z raydeejay: what is Dash?
2016-09-29T23:35:38Z pipping: rpg_: well, the annoying bit is that nthcdr should be a place for n > 0
2016-09-29T23:35:49Z raydeejay: attila_lendvai: it was set in stone in the nineties, that is a fact
2016-09-29T23:35:53Z raydeejay: you can't fight facts
2016-09-29T23:35:57Z pipping: raydeejay: and for n = 0 it depends on what you're calling it on (it'll be a place iff what you passed is a place)
2016-09-29T23:36:02Z raydeejay: therefore the next best thing is "embrace the language"
2016-09-29T23:36:14Z attila_lendvai: raydeejay: I wasn't debating facts. I was just expressing my opinion of them.
2016-09-29T23:36:46Z raydeejay: it was in reference to "people should really make sure for me that functions with side effects stick out from the rest"
2016-09-29T23:36:47Z rpg_: raydeejay: A Mac application for reading manuals. very handy -- at least when it's not got wrong content!!!
2016-09-29T23:37:08Z pipping: I wanted to truncate a list to a certain length the other day and (setf (nthcdr ...)) should do less consing then (setf ... (subseq ...))
2016-09-29T23:37:14Z pipping: that's why I wanted that
2016-09-29T23:37:17Z raydeejay: rpg_: when it has wrong content you can still look at the nice rounded corners, so it's a clear win
2016-09-29T23:37:30Z pipping: raydeejay: meanie!
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2016-09-29T23:37:35Z raydeejay: :D
2016-09-29T23:37:54Z raydeejay has a problem with Apple's tactics xD
2016-09-29T23:38:03Z rpg_: OK, I see what happened. Somehow when I went back from a CLHS page, I bounced into the emacs lisp manual in the history!
2016-09-29T23:38:10Z pipping: I'd get back at you for that but all the sharp objects near me have round corners :(
2016-09-29T23:38:13Z attila_lendvai: raydeejay: that was just another application of your principle, according to which I should do X.
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2016-09-29T23:38:35Z pipping: rpg_: yikes.
2016-09-29T23:38:49Z rpg_: that was unfortunate!
2016-09-29T23:38:51Z pipping: went right from the can of worms to the house of lindworms
2016-09-29T23:39:21Z raydeejay: attila_lendvai: there are "should"s and then there are "should"s
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2016-09-29T23:40:26Z raydeejay: "you should vote for Trump" is different than "you should keep your cat out of the microwave"
2016-09-29T23:40:29Z raydeejay: I think...
2016-09-29T23:41:34Z raydeejay: pipping: if your sharp objects have round corners, you are a true Apple fan :D
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2016-09-29T23:42:36Z pipping: raydeejay: all the scissors in my house: http://p.globalsources.com/IMAGES/PDT/BIG/599/B0554403599.jpg ;)
2016-09-29T23:42:48Z raydeejay: xDD
2016-09-29T23:42:56Z beaky: btw are there gotchas to using #'apply? or is it better than reduce
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2016-09-29T23:43:11Z raydeejay: they do different things
2016-09-29T23:43:18Z pipping: beaky: apply will stop working at certain lengths
2016-09-29T23:43:38Z pipping: for things where both will work, like #'+, reduce is preferable
2016-09-29T23:44:56Z raydeejay: but really, they do different things
2016-09-29T23:45:19Z raydeejay: again an opinion (debatable from certain points of view), but code should express intent in the clearest way possible
2016-09-29T23:45:19Z beaky: ah
2016-09-29T23:45:30Z raydeejay: if you mean apply, don't say reduce if you can help it
2016-09-29T23:45:40Z raydeejay: and the other way around
2016-09-29T23:46:24Z pipping: unless your game is running at 28 fps and your boss threatened to gut you like a fish if you don't reach 30 fps. then you're allowed to sacrifice clarity for performance.
2016-09-29T23:46:26Z rpg_: APPLY is to help you throw together an argument list for a function in a flexible way; REDUCE is a mapping-like operation
2016-09-29T23:49:03Z Xach: my function takes ten thousand arguments
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2016-09-29T23:50:56Z pipping: my function takes ℵ₀ arguments!
2016-09-29T23:51:59Z raydeejay: mine takes 🐟 arguments
2016-09-29T23:52:29Z raydeejay: and Xach: your function is over nine thousand (arguments)
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2016-09-29T23:54:57Z Xach: New quicklisp dist will be visible soon!!
2016-09-29T23:55:14Z Xach: This one may be controversial.
2016-09-29T23:56:05Z pipping: Xach: do tell
2016-09-29T23:56:05Z raydeejay: \o/
2016-09-29T23:56:16Z raydeejay: it includes packages related to the USA elections!!
2016-09-29T23:57:32Z Xach: I dropped com.informatimago because I do not want to have to discuss anything with pjb again. I have never enjoyed discussing anything previously, but his vile twitter feed drove me over the edge, and his project no longer builds, so I don't want to report problems or discuss solutions.
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2016-09-29T23:57:57Z Xach: Life is too short, for a volunteer project, to deal with such things.
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2016-09-30T00:00:42Z raydeejay: well, you can claim technical reasons ^^
2016-09-30T00:01:52Z pipping can't see any relevant tweets on either @quicklisp or @xach
2016-09-30T00:01:55Z Xach: That is a minor thing. The major thing is that it causes me personal pain and stress to deal with him and I don't want to subject myself to it any more.
2016-09-30T00:02:03Z Xach: pipping: The dist hasn't propagated through the cdn yet.
2016-09-30T00:02:06Z raydeejay: my unasked-for opinion is that you are not an elected public official in charge of maintaining quicklisp, and therefore have no reason to stress yourself over maintaining it
2016-09-30T00:02:35Z Xach: pipping: I have to prepare the announcements and updates after it does. Possibly tomorrow morning.
2016-09-30T00:02:48Z Xach: (it is 20:00 here now)
2016-09-30T00:03:26Z pipping: Xach: I meant the twitter exchange... or was there no exchange but a monologue?
2016-09-30T00:03:42Z raydeejay: you probably mean rant
2016-09-30T00:04:05Z Xach: No exchange - someone pointed out to me that twitter.com/ogamita is pjb
2016-09-30T00:04:30Z Xach: I do not understand the french, but there is enough that I do understand that makes me not want to support or interact with such a person.
2016-09-30T00:05:41Z raydeejay: I see your point
2016-09-30T00:06:20Z Xach: I have used /ignore on irc and killfiles for usenet and email for many years. I do not want some goal of "technical matters only" to bypass my sanity firewall.
2016-09-30T00:06:50Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I think it's only fair that you expect PR's from project owners in such cases. just make sure it's relatively straightforward for others to make local dists and test it themselves...
2016-09-30T00:07:58Z pipping: Xach: are you sure they're the same person?
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2016-09-30T00:08:13Z Xach: attila_lendvai: to remove their own projects in solidarity?
2016-09-30T00:08:33Z pipping: sorry, looks now like it is: http://www.informatimago.com links to pjb.ogamita.org
2016-09-30T00:08:42Z attila_lendvai: Xach: to keep things in a good shape for inclusion in ql
2016-09-30T00:08:46Z pipping: yeah, that twitter feed is about as bad as it gets.
2016-09-30T00:08:53Z raydeejay: heh, the usage of the word "solidarity" is somewhat funny
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2016-09-30T00:09:29Z Xach: attila_lendvai: Hmm, ok. I will have to see if I broke stuff with this change. Probably so. Argh.
2016-09-30T00:10:05Z raydeejay: Xach: if you're still on time, a compromise would be to not update it
2016-09-30T00:10:14Z raydeejay: IF you rethink your opinion on the matter
2016-09-30T00:10:36Z akkad: Xach: the green formations on the Statue of Liberty are not from Corrosion, but envy.
2016-09-30T00:10:41Z Xach: Oh, it will be removed, but the way it was removed may have hidden problems.
2016-09-30T00:10:43Z raydeejay: I mean, Debian and Ubuntu get away with that pretty well
2016-09-30T00:10:43Z attila_lendvai: what's in his feed? too much politics?
2016-09-30T00:11:20Z Xach: attila_lendvai: politics of extermination.
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2016-09-30T00:12:38Z Xach: Hmm, it looks like no other projects depend-on com.informatimago, so there are no immediate effects that I can see. But a thorough test will say for sure.
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2016-09-30T00:15:16Z eschatologist: I think it's OK not to want to work with literal white supremacists.
2016-09-30T00:15:16Z attila_lendvai: hehh, I had a scary flash of imagination just now... of a future where there are two isolated ql dists according to the trum/hillary preference of the library authors... daaaamn, how will I get this out of my head now!? :)
2016-09-30T00:15:52Z attila_lendvai: eschatologist: do you read french?
2016-09-30T00:16:12Z raydeejay: I think it's enough to look at the pictures
2016-09-30T00:17:04Z eschatologist: In addition to Antisemitic pictures/cartoons, there was stuff posted in English that included white supremacist codewords & phrases.
2016-09-30T00:17:34Z attila_lendvai luckily doesn't even know what are those codewords and phrases... :)
2016-09-30T00:20:18Z raydeejay: well, there's probably been 'nuff said on the matter
2016-09-30T00:20:42Z raydeejay: no one (awake) seems to disagree, and it wouldn't matter anyway, it's not our place to disagree
2016-09-30T00:20:53Z raydeejay: it's my (right) opinion :D
2016-09-30T00:21:16Z pipping: Xach: seems like the update won't be controversial at all.
2016-09-30T00:21:44Z Xach: I am not optimistic, but it will be what it will be.
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2016-09-30T00:23:18Z beaky: ello
2016-09-30T00:23:23Z beaky: how do i tell if a macro is hygienic
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2016-09-30T00:28:53Z pipping: H4ns: I just saw the announcement for the Berlin Lispers Meetup a few days ago (I was hospitalised then). it's on http://netzhansa.blogspot.de and the one before that is from '14; it's actually a tad more frequent than that, right?
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2016-09-30T00:35:18Z troydm: so I have an issue with slimv
2016-09-30T00:36:15Z troydm: I'm trying to use it with swank and slime-helper from quicklisp and when I send expressions to repl via slimv repl always says No value
2016-09-30T00:36:32Z troydm: i'm not even sure if expression even gets evaluated or not
2016-09-30T00:36:42Z troydm: anyone had this kind of issue?
2016-09-30T00:36:48Z Xach doesn't use slimv, sorry
2016-09-30T00:37:03Z troydm: I know that a lot of ppl don't use slimv
2016-09-30T00:37:11Z troydm: but some do
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2016-09-30T00:38:50Z beaky: how do i use slimv
2016-09-30T00:39:21Z troydm: beaky: well you need to install it in vim via some plugin system or manually first in order to try it
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2016-09-30T00:41:22Z troydm: beaky: for example you can you bundle.vim to install it
2016-09-30T00:41:40Z troydm: beaky: sorry I mean vundle.vim
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2016-09-30T03:03:22Z akkad: in sbcl doing profiling with :	   (sb-sprof:with-profiling (:mode :alloc  :show-progress t :report :graph) (do-bench))) the flat and graph reports don't show allocations
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2016-09-30T03:07:05Z pillton: Are you running in a slime REPL?
2016-09-30T03:07:27Z akkad: nope. compiling.
2016-09-30T03:07:46Z pillton: O
2016-09-30T03:07:55Z pillton: Sorry, my hand was off by one key.
2016-09-30T03:08:03Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/d7d931c249d9438b3f3fc8f59f1dd23a is what I get
2016-09-30T03:08:39Z pillton: I'm not sure what you mean by compiling. Are you doing something like $ my-lisp --load profile-my-library.lisp ?
2016-09-30T03:08:56Z akkad: meaning I compile a binary of the code and run it
2016-09-30T03:09:04Z akkad: deliver
2016-09-30T03:09:59Z akkad: http://john.freml.in/sbcl-optimise-profiling makes me feel like I'm missing something
2016-09-30T03:10:26Z pillton: You probably need to run it for longer.
2016-09-30T03:10:51Z pillton: And you have only allocated 131,072 bytes.
2016-09-30T03:11:56Z pillton: What are you trying to profile?
2016-09-30T03:12:02Z pillton: It looks like you are profiling the compiler.
2016-09-30T03:12:45Z akkad: will try for longer
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2016-09-30T03:13:45Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/52238004b331b169130d8a0a5801168f
2016-09-30T03:14:06Z akkad: is the function, so I'm not sure why it would trigger on the compiler given it's not run until after compilation, and from a binary
2016-09-30T03:14:17Z akkad: s/binary/delivered image/g
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2016-09-30T03:18:05Z pillton: What is wrong with sb-sprof:with-profiling?
2016-09-30T03:20:20Z pillton: It is a bit hard to tell what is going on without seeing do-bench. Some libraries do things like (compile nil '(lambda () ...)) at run-time.
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2016-09-30T03:30:00Z jasom: note that instantiating objects can invoke the compiler
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2016-09-30T03:48:22Z pillton: Do you mean method selections?
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2016-09-30T04:09:41Z ben_vulpes: having trouble getting a FORMAT call right; looking to use the backquote as comma delimiter in ~D call, have tried many variations on (format t "~,,,D" 100000000), but have failed even to instruct format to use a comma as a thousands delimiter.
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2016-09-30T04:11:59Z Bike: you have to quote it, like ', no?
2016-09-30T04:13:26Z ben_vulpes: like (format t "~,,',D" 100000000) ?
2016-09-30T04:13:36Z Bike: yes.
2016-09-30T04:13:41Z ben_vulpes: does not work for me.
2016-09-30T04:13:54Z ben_vulpes: does not return with delimters at all.
2016-09-30T04:14:54Z Bike: ah, it doesn't do it without the colon.
2016-09-30T04:14:58Z Bike: "~,,',:d"
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2016-09-30T04:15:25Z ben_vulpes: groovy
2016-09-30T04:15:26Z ben_vulpes: thanks bike!
2016-09-30T04:16:00Z ben_vulpes: it's always in the last pock^H^H^Hermutation you check
2016-09-30T04:18:10Z groovy2shoes: hrm
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2016-09-30T04:25:07Z jasom: pillton: I mean calling make-instance can in some circumstances invoke the compiler
2016-09-30T04:25:44Z jasom: pillton: I don't remember the details but it does caching of arguments to make-instance or something like that
2016-09-30T04:27:39Z pillton: jasom: Sure. It isn't limited to make-instance though. It is any generic function.
2016-09-30T04:28:28Z Bike: for make-instance it does more caching
2016-09-30T04:29:58Z Bike: there's a thing called a ctor and it makes one for... possibly every call site? and that entails compiling
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2016-09-30T04:32:07Z pillton: Oh right. I was unaware of that. I pondered doing that in specialization-store.
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2016-09-30T04:37:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-09-30T04:37:57Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-09-30T04:40:43Z beach: I think I FINALLY figured out an acceptable design of the incremental Common Lisp parser for Second Climacs.  It now uses the same reader as SICL does, and the reader only required a few backward-compatible modifications to be usable.  I still have to figure out how to test the thing, though.
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2016-09-30T05:04:46Z jasom: parsing of code as it's being edited is a pain.
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2016-09-30T05:06:00Z beach: It is a pain to implement efficiently, yes.
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2016-09-30T05:10:56Z beach: But I have done some preparations for it.  I implemented the edit and update protocols for Cluffer for that purpose.
2016-09-30T05:11:31Z beach: The incremental parser is invoked by the update protocol.
2016-09-30T05:14:54Z beach: In (first) Climacs I also have an incremental parser for Common Lisp, but it is totally bogus in that it does not take into account things like packages, reader macros, etc.  It is still better than the parser of Emacs/SLIME though, but the one I am working on now I hope will be much better.
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2016-09-30T05:19:24Z loke: beach: What about something like paredit?
2016-09-30T05:19:40Z loke: Making sure that the forms are always varid
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2016-09-30T05:20:12Z beach: Paredit will definitely speed up the incremental parser if that's what you mean.
2016-09-30T05:21:46Z loke: I mean that when you use paredit (or something like it), incremental parsing isn't needed at all?
2016-09-30T05:22:38Z beach: Otherwise, by "incremental parser" I don't just mean "balancing parentheses".  Ultimately, I want to recognize that in (LET ((PROGN 10)) ...) PROGN is a lexical variable and not a reference to #'CL:PROGN.
2016-09-30T05:23:06Z loke: I see
2016-09-30T05:23:08Z beach: Also, compute correct indentation, etc.
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2016-09-30T06:04:16Z beaky: hmm parsing half-baked nuggets of lisp sounds fun
2016-09-30T06:08:50Z beach: I start by applying READ to the contents of the editor buffer.  And I keep a cache of correspondence between buffer position and result of calling READ there, so that READ is only called where the buffer contents has changed since last keystroke.
2016-09-30T06:09:43Z beach: It is way more involved than that, of course, but that's the main idea.
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2016-09-30T06:12:39Z beach: As it turns out, in some native implementations of the reader, the reader macros do not call READ, so it would not help to intercept the calls to READ in order to return a cache entry instead.  For that reason, I need to use a special reader.  But I can use the SICL reader.  And now I have figured out how to use it unmodified.
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2016-09-30T06:49:24Z beaky: ello
2016-09-30T06:49:32Z beaky: does slime have breakpoints or reversible debugging
2016-09-30T06:50:07Z beach: beaky: SLIME relies on the Common Lisp implementation for stuff like that.
2016-09-30T06:50:32Z beaky: oh
2016-09-30T06:50:34Z beach: beaky: And SBCL is lagging a bit when it comes to such functionality.
2016-09-30T06:51:31Z beach: In fact, probably all free implementations are a bit skimpy when it comes to debugging features.
2016-09-30T06:51:32Z jackdaniel: it seams that my internal irc reader is incremental, because I find relatively hard to read both nicks of the same length and 3 first of 5 letters matching ;)
2016-09-30T06:51:44Z jackdaniel: s/seams/seems/
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2016-09-30T06:53:04Z beach: beaky: nyef assures me that SBCL has breakpoints, but the code has bitrotted some.  He recently made a TODO list to make it work again, and to document it.
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2016-09-30T06:53:37Z beaky: wow nice
2016-09-30T06:55:32Z beach: This is a common situation with free Common Lisp implementations.  There just aren't enough qualified people around with enough time to spend.  Most Common Lisp people seem busy with trying to get rich by implementing a web site using Common Lisp and using Common Lisp binding to software written in C.
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2016-09-30T07:02:17Z raydeejay: jackdaniel: it's very easy
2016-09-30T07:02:36Z raydeejay: beaky is pink and beach is sort of lavender
2016-09-30T07:02:38Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-30T07:04:01Z flip214: raydeejay: not on an amber CRT
2016-09-30T07:08:27Z raydeejay: so if you put them on a monitor, they change colour?
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2016-09-30T07:10:34Z jackdaniel: :)
2016-09-30T07:12:20Z flip214: yes, they both get green, because it's so wobbly
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2016-09-30T07:21:10Z Baggers: beaky: http://malisper.me/2015/07/07/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/
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2016-09-30T08:11:08Z easye: Morning.  Anyone know of a generic mtree like utility in CL, preferably using a recent ASDF/UIOP build for the portability abstractions?
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2016-09-30T08:17:23Z easye: I guess I can just shell out to mtree via UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM, and deal with Windows uses without Cygwin later.
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2016-09-30T08:20:03Z splittist: easye: what do you want to use mtree for?
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2016-09-30T08:24:44Z easye: Filesystem metadata.
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2016-09-30T08:27:28Z splittist: easye: gathering? comparing over time? comparing between systems? including hashes?
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2016-09-30T08:27:39Z easye: Yes.
2016-09-30T08:28:11Z easye: Think "Making a better interface than AAPL's Time Machine"
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2016-09-30T08:28:45Z easye: Perhaps not "Comparing between systems" so much.
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2016-09-30T08:33:00Z splittist: sounds sufficiently ambitious that some combination of uiop, ironclad and make-load-form should divert you for a while (:
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2016-09-30T08:35:52Z easye is just shelling out to mtree.
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2016-09-30T08:38:52Z easye: I figure the output of mtree will compress 90%, so it is actually a reasonably close to theoretical minimum size transcription of the information.
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2016-09-30T08:39:49Z flip214: easye: you could use fsvs (store trees in subversion, including owner/group/mtime), and configure it to not store contents
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2016-09-30T08:42:05Z easye: flip214: Need it to work generically, across every filesystem possible.
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2016-09-30T08:42:29Z flip214: it does... across everything you can mount
2016-09-30T08:42:46Z flip214: just does opendir() etc. anyway
2016-09-30T08:43:12Z easye: My use case can't reliably mount filesystems (permission problems)
2016-09-30T08:44:04Z easye: I figure subversion is a bit heavyweight.  Unless there is a Lisp swig of subvertpy?
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2016-09-30T08:58:17Z pipping: jackdaniel: http://dev.exherbo.org/~pipping/Screen%20Shot%202016-09-30%20at%2010.57.35.png
2016-09-30T08:58:27Z pipping: jackdaniel: ^ use a third dimension
2016-09-30T08:59:38Z jackdaniel: makes sense, but I may be too lazy to fix that :)
2016-09-30T09:00:21Z pipping: it was just a single line I had to copy&paste for weechat, otherwise I would've been too lazy, too (that's why the bottom green is so ugly)
2016-09-30T09:00:22Z jackdaniel: regarding our yesterdays discussion, I perceive asdf/uiop more like a systemd than gnulib
2016-09-30T09:00:38Z jackdaniel: ah, I have never used weechat
2016-09-30T09:01:14Z pipping: jackdaniel: I think now you're comparing apples and walrusses
2016-09-30T09:01:24Z pipping: walruses, even.
2016-09-30T09:02:28Z jackdaniel: maybe, but perception is a funny thing - it's always heavily influenced by a person who perceives
2016-09-30T09:03:05Z pipping: jackdaniel: I'd rather put this discussion to rest. I believe we've both said everything there is to be said and been unable to agree.
2016-09-30T09:03:20Z jackdaniel: OK
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2016-09-30T09:04:16Z beaky: wow thanks for sharing bagers i love how lisp ties the debugging experience with the repl liek that
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2016-09-30T09:13:31Z Baggers: beaky: aye it's pretty cool, I have only just started playing with the debugger. I do still miss being able to walk arbitrarily through functions c# style, but I need a debugger much less in lisp so it ends up ok
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2016-09-30T09:23:12Z superancetre: Morning, how can i add a reference of an object to itself with initialize-instance or another way ?
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2016-09-30T09:23:57Z moore33: superancetre: Just use the value passed to initialize-instance. Is there something more complicated going on?
2016-09-30T09:24:45Z _death: (defclass egoist () (interest)) (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((egoist egoist) &key) (setf (slot-value egoist 'interest) egoist))
2016-09-30T09:25:24Z superancetre: moore33: oh i was thinking this was the type of the class and not an instance, silly me, thanks!
2016-09-30T09:25:30Z superancetre: _death: thanks too
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2016-09-30T11:45:12Z beaky: ello
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2016-09-30T11:57:54Z beaky: is there a rich hickey of common lisp
2016-09-30T11:58:47Z H4ns: no.
2016-09-30T11:59:07Z H4ns: common lisp is a committee language.
2016-09-30T12:04:40Z ggole: McCarthy, maybe
2016-09-30T12:05:19Z beaky: hm was he very influental in common lisp
2016-09-30T12:05:48Z ggole: He invented Lisp
2016-09-30T12:05:49Z beaky: i thought he just published the paper on s-expressions and then the rest of lisp was conceived by his grad students or something
2016-09-30T12:05:51Z beaky: oh
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2016-09-30T12:06:48Z ggole: The first implementation was done by somebody else, yes
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2016-09-30T12:16:52Z moore33: I'd say that GLS had a lot more influence on Common Lisp than McCarthy: co-author of Scheme, wrote two books on it, moderator of the ANSI committee...
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2016-09-30T12:18:48Z H4ns: mccarthy had influence on common lisp?  i was not aware of that.
2016-09-30T12:19:14Z moore33: H4ns: No, not really.
2016-09-30T12:19:25Z fe[nl]ix: this is news to me too
2016-09-30T12:20:36Z H4ns: in any case, there is nobody like rich hickey in common lisp.  many important authors of the common lisp standard are dead or retired, and many of them don't use lisp anymore.  the language consists largely of the spec, and there is nobody who would be able to change or "improve" it in the way that rich hickey can change or "improve" clojure.
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2016-09-30T12:21:49Z H4ns: when i write "consists largely of the spec", i mean to say that substantial parts of the spec are not actually part of the useful set of common lisp and are ignored by the majority of common lisp developers.
2016-09-30T12:22:17Z moore33: H4ns: Hmmm, I can only think of one person who's dead :)
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2016-09-30T12:26:26Z moore33: Just learned that you can inspect closures in sbcl / slime. Very cool!
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2016-09-30T12:28:53Z Baggers: Whilst I'm not interested in a new CL spec, it would be interesting to have an 'effective spec' which is just a survey of the implementations to see what minimums are agreed on by all implementations. It would be nice to know what the 'effective' value of ARRAY-DIMENSION-LIMIT is for example
2016-09-30T12:32:11Z Xach: Baggers: that would be cool! especially if it was updated as things change
2016-09-30T12:34:11Z Baggers: at least for constants like array-dimension-limit it could be a small program thats run on travis/cl-grid
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2016-09-30T12:35:59Z Baggers: I havent though much other details though, would love to hear any ideas. It's current a project in my 'todo one day' list
2016-09-30T12:37:23Z Baggers: s/current/currently
2016-09-30T12:37:56Z moore33: We have a cool "Annotated CLIM spec" where people can add spam :) to entries in the spec; such a thing would be useful for adding implementation-specific info.
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2016-09-30T12:42:09Z jackdaniel: Baggers: lately I was thinking about something like autoconf for CL
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2016-09-30T12:44:21Z Baggers: moore33: yeah. It does get us back to the 'we need an open version of clhs' issue again though. I remember the ultraspec from ELS but am not sure legally how different it has to be to not be infringing on ansi's copyrights
2016-09-30T12:45:01Z moore33: I thought we determined that ANSI doesn't hold any copyright on the spec, except perhaps the printed version of it.
2016-09-30T12:45:03Z jackdaniel: I think that if it is produced from the last draft there shouldn't be a problem, right?
2016-09-30T12:45:15Z Baggers: oh! that would be good news
2016-09-30T12:46:01Z moore33: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html
2016-09-30T12:46:07Z moore33: section 6.2
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2016-09-30T12:49:14Z Baggers: cool
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2016-09-30T12:50:23Z Baggers: oh yeah http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Help.htm#Legal
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2016-09-30T12:51:55Z moore33: Right, so the Hyperspec is essentially copyrighted, but the underlying text and markup isn't. I don't know where you would find that :/
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2016-09-30T12:53:21Z dlowe: I have a hyperspec project, but it's stalled due to not-enough-time.
2016-09-30T12:53:29Z Baggers: Has there been any inquiry to lispworks before about re-licensing to something more open ?
2016-09-30T12:53:37Z jackdaniel: there are tex sources
2016-09-30T12:53:59Z dlowe: Baggers: yes. they said no.
2016-09-30T12:54:27Z dlowe: and frankly, if the open source community can't get themselves together enough, I'm not sure we deserve it
2016-09-30T12:54:32Z Baggers: bummer
2016-09-30T12:54:33Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/LispLang/ansi-spec
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2016-09-30T12:55:07Z Baggers: jackdaniel: thanks. I dont have the time to attack this yet either, but one day
2016-09-30T12:55:35Z dlowe: plump-tex is inadequate for parsing it, I think.
2016-09-30T12:55:45Z jackdaniel: yeah, I think they are not encumbered by any license
2016-09-30T12:56:30Z Xach: There are seven different spec tex processing projects in flight
2016-09-30T12:56:32Z dlowe: the thing about the spec is that it's really super-easy to get a 50% solution, but that remaining 50% is ridiculously hard.
2016-09-30T12:56:53Z dlowe: Xach: that seems consistent with the rest of the lisp community :)
2016-09-30T12:57:57Z Baggers: dlowe: was the same with the GL spec. I did the last half manually. It sucks but if there is no better solution then at some point I just get annoyed enough to do it.
2016-09-30T12:58:31Z dlowe: Baggers: that's really hard when you want cross-referencing of everything.
2016-09-30T12:58:53Z dlowe: I mean, just pick any page on the clhs and see how many links there are.
2016-09-30T12:59:00Z dlowe: now imagine doing them manually without missing any
2016-09-30T12:59:04Z Baggers: dlowe: then I'll have to be exceedingly annoyed :)
2016-09-30T12:59:19Z Baggers: your right of course though
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2016-09-30T13:01:10Z Baggers: dlowe: if you can think of a way of structuring the project for amazon's mechanical turk then Im happy to throw some money at that
2016-09-30T13:03:10Z dlowe: I've literally considered taking a sabbatical from my job to do it. :p
2016-09-30T13:03:32Z dlowe: maybe next year.
2016-09-30T13:04:45Z Baggers: blimey :) be sure to put up an indiegogo campaign or something so we can send you some encouragement
2016-09-30T13:06:47Z Cymew: I'd chip in
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2016-09-30T13:09:41Z dlowe: I think that would really just add stress to the ordeal
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2016-09-30T13:12:29Z Xach: Running out of money to live is also stressful
2016-09-30T13:14:32Z dlowe: Thankfully, I'm not that tight. But I wouldn't want to be in a position where a month wasn't enough to let me complete it and ALL THESE PEOPLE PAID ME MONEY.
2016-09-30T13:15:09Z flip214: can somebody please explain why http://paste.lisp.org/display/327440 gives me "The variable *SERVER-THREAD* is unbound." on every evaluation? thanks a lot.
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2016-09-30T13:16:44Z dlowe: you want (boundp '*server-thread*)
2016-09-30T13:16:51Z Baggers: dlowe: gotcha. Is your aim to get to also provide a lisp traversable version of the spec or 'just' html?
2016-09-30T13:16:53Z dlowe: it's trying to evaluate *server-thread* to pass to boundp
2016-09-30T13:17:00Z dlowe: Baggers: lisp traversable
2016-09-30T13:17:01Z flip214: dlowe: ahhhh right, thanks
2016-09-30T13:17:05Z dlowe: and html
2016-09-30T13:17:11Z Baggers: dlowe: wonderful
2016-09-30T13:17:13Z dlowe: but the lisp traversable is the important part
2016-09-30T13:17:23Z Baggers: agreed
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2016-09-30T13:17:41Z dlowe: the hardest part are the TeX math diagrams
2016-09-30T13:18:38Z pipping: dlowe: could you give an example?
2016-09-30T13:19:11Z knobo: When working with dates I thik I'd like to set local-time:*default-timezone* to +utc-zone+.
2016-09-30T13:19:29Z dlowe: well, they're actually all over, but I was thinking specifically of stuff like http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/12_aed.htm
2016-09-30T13:20:57Z pipping: dlowe: I'd never noticed those. Yikes.
2016-09-30T13:23:06Z knobo: or.. remember to always use timestamp with timezone in postgresql... is  probably better.
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2016-09-30T13:30:21Z dlowe: my end goal is to have a hyperspec, plus more annotations, plus an attached wiki for each page.
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2016-09-30T13:31:26Z Baggers: dlowe: Best of luck, it would be great
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2016-09-30T13:38:42Z pipping: if I'm only interested in checking for non-nilness, should I ever prefer `member` over `find`?
2016-09-30T13:39:33Z pipping: i.e., (when (find x list)) vs. (when (member x list))
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2016-09-30T13:43:17Z White_Flame: if X happens to be nil, then find will return NIL even if it's found in the list'
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2016-09-30T13:43:29Z White_Flame: member is always non-nil when it finds a result, because it returns a cons cell
2016-09-30T13:44:16Z White_Flame: I tend to always use member when doing a membership test, and find if I care about the value found
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2016-09-30T13:48:37Z pipping: White_Flame: exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for. thanks :)
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2016-09-30T13:51:06Z pipping: I'm currently taking a look at assoc-utils and I'm not yet sure if it's a great idea (because of the nice shorthands it provides) or a terrible idea (because it requires me to set assoc-utils:*assoc-test* instead of :test, apparently?)
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2016-09-30T13:58:27Z Baggers: pipping: to each their own I guess, but I find that *assoc-test* style uglier
2016-09-30T13:59:47Z pipping: Baggers: (yikes; that phrase carries a lot of baggage; either way:) so do I; I was rather disappointed when I noticed that :/
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2016-09-30T14:03:10Z Baggers: pipping: hehe, good point. It did :D
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2016-09-30T14:09:41Z beaky: hello
2016-09-30T14:10:05Z beaky: is cffi only applicable to c libs
2016-09-30T14:10:10Z beaky: or can i use it to call java libs for instance
2016-09-30T14:10:33Z beaky: (im new to using ffis in general)
2016-09-30T14:11:12Z pipping points in the direction of #abcl
2016-09-30T14:11:19Z beaky: i guess ffis nowadays are synonymous with "using c or fortran libs"
2016-09-30T14:12:27Z Baggers: beaky: cffi is c/c++ (with the usual caveat of only be useful for EXTERN c++ stuff)
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2016-09-30T14:15:04Z Baggers: beaky: it's a lovely ffi to work with though
2016-09-30T14:15:35Z Baggers: beaky: unlike jni which scars my soul
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2016-09-30T14:26:18Z jackdaniel: Baggers: do you have some experience with cl+j?
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2016-09-30T14:26:24Z jackdaniel: (regarding jni)
2016-09-30T14:26:37Z Baggers: jackdaniel: nope
2016-09-30T14:26:51Z jackdaniel: heh
2016-09-30T14:27:39Z Baggers: I've only worked with jni from c++. The experience could be made much nicer from lisp so I'd be hopeful about cl+j
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2016-09-30T14:30:19Z jackdaniel: I plan to use it in ecl-android for native interaction with it, but it will have to wait
2016-09-30T14:30:31Z jackdaniel: thought I will have someone to bother with questions ;)
2016-09-30T14:30:38Z jackdaniel: when this time comes
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2016-09-30T14:32:18Z Baggers: jackdaniel: feel free for general jni questions, android was the platform I was doing all that from so Im pretty familiar with the quirky madness of it all
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2016-09-30T14:34:03Z jackdaniel: ack, thanks
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2016-09-30T15:38:26Z guicho: good morning
2016-09-30T15:40:59Z PuercoPop: guicho: hi!
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2016-09-30T15:45:46Z raydeejay: o/
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2016-09-30T16:42:25Z Th30n: I often have a pattern in my code that looks like this: (if-let ((test-result (some-computation))) test-result default-value)
2016-09-30T16:43:03Z Th30n: Is there a better way to express this using standard functions/macros? (Or I need to write one myself.)
2016-09-30T16:43:53Z pierpa: can you use separate LETs and IFs ?
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2016-09-30T16:44:27Z Grue`: Th30n: (or (some-computation) default-value)
2016-09-30T16:44:57Z Th30n: Grue`: Oh, right, silly me :D Thanks!
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2016-09-30T16:49:06Z knobo: (local-time:today) does not return local start of day... :( It returns start of day somewhere else in the world.. thus not local-time.
2016-09-30T16:50:09Z knobo: (timestamp-minimize-part (now) :hour) works fine.
2016-09-30T16:50:17Z Bike: "in the UTC zone", it says in the manual.
2016-09-30T16:50:38Z knobo: yes.
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2016-09-30T16:53:23Z knobo: It would be intuitintuitive if the local-time library returned a local-time.
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2016-09-30T16:56:46Z dlowe: I didn't name it. :p
2016-09-30T16:56:58Z dlowe: I probably should have, in retrospect.
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2016-09-30T16:57:26Z dlowe: but it was intended to be a faithful recreation of the API described in Naggum's paper.
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2016-09-30T17:00:03Z mordocai: knobo: From what I understand dates were supposed to be always UTC at midnight.
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2016-09-30T17:00:15Z mordocai: knobo: Instead of creating an explicit date type
2016-09-30T17:00:31Z Th30n is happy how Lisp syntax makes code search and replace easy.
2016-09-30T17:00:34Z mordocai thinks an explicit date type would be better
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2016-09-30T17:31:59Z dlowe shrugs.
2016-09-30T17:32:01Z dlowe: Yes, it's true.
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2016-09-30T17:36:22Z flip214: Xach: what's the reason for the unevenly distributed linefeeds on http://blog.quicklisp.org/2016/09/september-2016-quicklisp-dist-update.html?
2016-09-30T17:38:43Z dlowe: it's a coded message to his minions.
2016-09-30T17:38:47Z dlowe: We don't talk about the linefeeds.
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2016-09-30T17:42:25Z knobo: dlowe: local-time is great, and naggum was a smart guy. I just did not read the spec.
2016-09-30T17:42:42Z dlowe: I was just explaining why it's called local-time.
2016-09-30T17:43:00Z dlowe: He was really super wrong about including timezones in his local-time object, though.
2016-09-30T17:43:14Z knobo: dlowe: how?
2016-09-30T17:43:18Z dlowe: In practice it just made things horrible and complicated.
2016-09-30T17:43:25Z dlowe: *even more* complicated, I should say
2016-09-30T17:43:38Z knobo: the implementation or the usage?
2016-09-30T17:43:42Z dlowe: both
2016-09-30T17:44:11Z knobo: So it _is_ complicated, it's not just me who is stupid.
2016-09-30T17:44:28Z dlowe: The underlying domain is complicated.
2016-09-30T17:44:36Z raydeejay: timey wimey
2016-09-30T17:44:40Z dlowe: srsly
2016-09-30T17:44:49Z raydeejay knows
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2016-09-30T17:49:30Z mordocai: I rather like ActiveSupport's (ruby on rails) time API. It does store the timezone in the local time objects but it is actually quite nice to work with. I don't think I've ever felt the API is the problem, just the underlying domain.
2016-09-30T17:49:42Z mordocai: If I was to implement a time API i'd likely copy theirs
2016-09-30T17:49:51Z mordocai: (and make it lispy, of course)
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2016-09-30T18:03:47Z pipping: jackdaniel: do you read lisp-hug@?
2016-09-30T18:04:34Z jackdaniel: never heard of it
2016-09-30T18:05:19Z jackdaniel: no wonder, it's lispworks user group - never used lispworks
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2016-09-30T18:06:01Z nullx002: hi all
2016-09-30T18:06:10Z jackdaniel: hi
2016-09-30T18:06:20Z pipping: jackdaniel: Martin Simmons said today: "We will release an updated version to fix this soon" in reply to an issue with the personal edition of LW on macOS
2016-09-30T18:06:28Z nullx002: what is the exact vaue of PI defined in SBCL ?
2016-09-30T18:06:43Z jackdaniel: fix what soon?
2016-09-30T18:06:45Z pipping: jackdaniel: now that could mean anything from a new PE 6 on macOS to a PE 7 on all platforms.
2016-09-30T18:07:20Z nullx002: (not (= pi 3.141592653589793d0)) returns NIL
2016-09-30T18:07:35Z nullx002: so is it that number??
2016-09-30T18:07:52Z jackdaniel: I suppose yes, why?
2016-09-30T18:08:18Z jackdaniel: on ECL it's 3.1415926535897932385l0
2016-09-30T18:08:28Z nullx002: so can i replace (not (= pi pi)) with previous expression?
2016-09-30T18:08:36Z pipping: using strict equality for floating point numbers is a bad idea, no matter what platform and programming language you're on and in
2016-09-30T18:08:54Z pipping: (unless you really know what you're doing)
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2016-09-30T18:09:27Z nullx002: i am not doing anything production but just few math code
2016-09-30T18:09:38Z nullx002: so curious if that may work...
2016-09-30T18:09:56Z _death: nullx002: why shouldn't it
2016-09-30T18:10:08Z jackdaniel: it may work by accident, but you should never compare floats for equality (just what pipping said)
2016-09-30T18:10:16Z nullx002: _death: in special cases it may not work
2016-09-30T18:10:24Z jackdaniel: if you put (= pi 3.14) you never know if sbcl changes precision for instance
2016-09-30T18:10:25Z _death: nullx002: can you elaborate?
2016-09-30T18:10:56Z nullx002: (= Pi 3.14) will never satisfy not
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2016-09-30T18:11:22Z nullx002: CL internally defines PI as a precise floating constant. right?
2016-09-30T18:11:33Z jackdaniel: (let ((pi 3.14)) (= pi 3.14))
2016-09-30T18:12:03Z jackdaniel: it won't work on sbcl though
2016-09-30T18:12:08Z _death: nullx002: what does it matter what CL does?  you're talking about a particular SBCL environment
2016-09-30T18:12:12Z nullx002: hum...
2016-09-30T18:12:23Z pipping: jackdaniel: I believe we talked about LW PE 6 at some point because it was one of the two remaining lisps that were still on ASDF 2
2016-09-30T18:12:38Z nullx002: yes...
2016-09-30T18:12:40Z pipping: jackdaniel: the other being clisp, even though that's fixed on their hg tip
2016-09-30T18:12:45Z nullx002: i am new to Lisp
2016-09-30T18:12:58Z nullx002: bit familiar with elisp and tryign CL and newlisp
2016-09-30T18:13:01Z raydeejay: why are you checking the value of pi anyway?
2016-09-30T18:13:09Z jackdaniel: ah, that
2016-09-30T18:13:16Z pipping: nullx002: are you trying to understand lisp or floating point numbers?
2016-09-30T18:13:34Z nullx002: some fun math code and languages act funny for same ALGO.
2016-09-30T18:13:50Z nullx002: both
2016-09-30T18:15:00Z _death: if you're interested in how a Common Lisp implementation should define PI in general, you should look at the Common Lisp HyperSpec
2016-09-30T18:15:01Z _death: clhs pi
2016-09-30T18:15:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pi.htm
2016-09-30T18:15:18Z nullx002: let me check
2016-09-30T18:16:18Z jackdaniel: I think you misunderstand me, putting implicit dependencies on anything is bad, whenever they will be fulfilled in 90% of cases or not. I hoped we have agreed to disagree already
2016-09-30T18:16:31Z nullx002: oh good
2016-09-30T18:16:40Z nullx002: so (float pi x) i can use,,
2016-09-30T18:16:52Z nullx002: will it work with steel bank..?
2016-09-30T18:16:53Z mordocai: Obviously we should use 245850922/78256779 as pi.
2016-09-30T18:17:05Z _death: nullx002: yes, SBCL is a pretty conformant implementation
2016-09-30T18:17:28Z jackdaniel: 3 is good enough approximation, and it's fixnum!
2016-09-30T18:17:36Z jackdaniel: :)
2016-09-30T18:17:55Z pipping: jackdaniel: if you feel that way, you shouldn't use those examples to make your point.
2016-09-30T18:18:14Z jackdaniel: my point is that build software can't be always expected to be bundled with the final executable
2016-09-30T18:18:29Z jasom: Just in case someone wants to fan some flames, there's a reader macro flame war starting on reddit..
2016-09-30T18:18:46Z jackdaniel: you may either build without asdf or build with older one. unless you intentionally force people to bundle it
2016-09-30T18:18:53Z raydeejay: \o/ 🔥
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2016-09-30T18:19:15Z jackdaniel: because things will break otherwise (because you forced yet another people to depend implicitly on it)
2016-09-30T18:19:16Z pipping: jackdaniel: that's beside the point. if you argue a => b and I contradict a, for you to say "but a doesn't matter" isn't exactly a great way of arguing
2016-09-30T18:19:22Z _death: obviously lispm is right.. the other guys simply have nonlispy taste residue from other languages..
2016-09-30T18:19:42Z mordocai: lispm is usually right in my experience
2016-09-30T18:19:46Z jackdaniel: pipping: when I say, that a, b and c are bad in X, then saying - but half of a is already fixed isn't contrargument at all
2016-09-30T18:19:49Z jasom: _death: I'm aidenn0 if you are interested in my views.
2016-09-30T18:20:06Z nullx002: hum.. gives me error
2016-09-30T18:20:15Z pipping: jasom: do you observe yourself turning my 100% first into 90% and then into 50%?
2016-09-30T18:20:24Z pipping: jasom: sorry, that was meant for jackdaniel
2016-09-30T18:20:35Z nullx002: FLOAT datum
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2016-09-30T18:20:52Z pipping: jackdaniel: the fact that you get angrier doesn't make your point better or numbers more valid.
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2016-09-30T18:21:15Z raydeejay: no? NO?!?
2016-09-30T18:21:16Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if I got angrier, but if you claim so
2016-09-30T18:21:44Z jackdaniel can't argue with /facts/
2016-09-30T18:22:31Z jackdaniel: btw, that was one of the eristic techniques I've mentioned before - ad persona argument
2016-09-30T18:23:41Z nullx002: on SBCL (float pi) works but not (float pi x)
2016-09-30T18:24:24Z jasom: clhs float
2016-09-30T18:24:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_float.htm
2016-09-30T18:24:50Z jackdaniel: (float pi /win 28
2016-09-30T18:24:58Z jasom: (float pi 1.0d0) works (float pi 1.0s0) should work too
2016-09-30T18:25:24Z PuercoPop: jasom: I hadn't seen that thread. I think lispm is missing the point of the examples imho. They are more to show what you can do than a recommendation
2016-09-30T18:25:32Z pipping: jackdaniel: you don't need to lecture me on such topics.
2016-09-30T18:25:47Z jackdaniel: in that case I won't
2016-09-30T18:25:57Z jasom: jackdaniel: is there any percentage other than 100% that makes implicit dependencies okay?
2016-09-30T18:26:04Z d4ryus: hi, i have a object (class) which is used by multiple threads (bt). So every method accessing the slots starts with a '(with-recursive-lock-held (lock obj) ...'. Is there a more elegant way to achieve threadsave access?
2016-09-30T18:26:28Z jasom: d4ryus: that may or may not be threadsafe
2016-09-30T18:26:44Z jackdaniel: jasom: we were discussing https://gist.github.com/dkochmanski/19215f440dbed50fd5075cf71ba3bcb2
2016-09-30T18:26:58Z nullx002: (float pi 1)
2016-09-30T18:27:13Z mordocai: nullx002: That's not a correct usage of float
2016-09-30T18:27:16Z jasom: nullx002: the second argument mus be a float
2016-09-30T18:27:27Z jasom: nullx002: see http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_float.htm
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2016-09-30T18:28:13Z nullx002: what about float 0 ?
2016-09-30T18:28:22Z nullx002: doc says it shuld work
2016-09-30T18:28:26Z mordocai: Float with a second argument is formatting the number to a certain number of digits, rather you are defining what precision you want the float to be which is an entirely different concept.
2016-09-30T18:28:50Z mordocai: is not*
2016-09-30T18:28:55Z nullx002: mordocai: i know that
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2016-09-30T18:29:16Z mordocai: nullx002: (float 0) works fine on sbcl but (float pi 0) doesn't.
2016-09-30T18:29:20Z mordocai: As expected via docs
2016-09-30T18:29:28Z jasom: jackdaniel: oh, relying on implicit dependencies is bad, but unavoidable so long as the build system doesn't check for them
2016-09-30T18:30:07Z jackdaniel: jasom: what do you mean by unavoidable?
2016-09-30T18:30:08Z jasom: jackdaniel: and I'm pretty sure that Faré is opposed to implicit dependencies since he worked on xcvb and bazel.
2016-09-30T18:30:28Z jackdaniel: well, I have a different impression, but I may have miread his opinion
2016-09-30T18:30:30Z jasom: jackdaniel: any problems that don't show up in testing will persist.
2016-09-30T18:30:38Z jasom: jackdaniel: i.e. people make mistakes
2016-09-30T18:30:47Z nullx002: i want pi upto 100 digits say...
2016-09-30T18:30:50Z jasom: and relying on implicit dependencies doesn't show up in testing
2016-09-30T18:31:07Z nullx002: mordocai: how will that work and with what accuracy..
2016-09-30T18:31:13Z jackdaniel: jasom: yes, I'm saying that people should list their dependencies if they are aware of them existing
2016-09-30T18:31:17Z jackdaniel: that's all
2016-09-30T18:31:27Z jackdaniel: you can't address problems you are not aware of obviously
2016-09-30T18:31:29Z jasom: nullx002: then calculate it yourself, or use a library that provides it (computable-reals does in quicklisp)
2016-09-30T18:32:04Z jasom: jackdaniel: I think Faré's point was that you can depend on ASDF being provided in a .asd, but I might misunderstand him.
2016-09-30T18:32:53Z nullx002: jasom: so with float it won't work...
2016-09-30T18:33:26Z jasom: nullx002: the constant pi that lisp provides is only as accurate as the precision of long-float
2016-09-30T18:33:26Z jackdaniel: it arised from cffi thread, where he tried to debunk explicit listing uiop as dependency (cffi depends on uiop features), because he claimed that asdf pulls uiop, so there is no need to put it in :depends-on
2016-09-30T18:33:37Z nullx002: also (float pi 1/.2) is also not working on SBCL
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2016-09-30T18:34:08Z jasom: nullx002: 1/.2 is an invalid literal
2016-09-30T18:34:13Z jasom: nullx002: see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ca.htm
2016-09-30T18:34:30Z nullx002: jasom: ok, so have to use extra library for that...
2016-09-30T18:34:32Z jasom: {digit}+ slash {digit}+
2016-09-30T18:34:35Z nullx002: thanks all..
2016-09-30T18:34:46Z jasom: nullx002: no worries.
2016-09-30T18:35:14Z jackdaniel: I'll grab a book and read, have a nice evening o/
2016-09-30T18:35:35Z jasom: jackdaniel: I think he's wrong about that; I think relying on the uiop dependency is a fairly benign form of implicit dependency due to how closely coupled asdf is to uiop, but I still think he's wrong.
2016-09-30T18:35:41Z nullx002: sorry i meant 1/2
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2016-09-30T18:35:58Z nullx002: FLOAT datum
2016-09-30T18:36:07Z jackdaniel: jasom: yes, I share that opinion, hence that issue for quarterly
2016-09-30T18:36:11Z nullx002: for (float pi 1/2)
2016-09-30T18:36:47Z jackdaniel: I lack two more issues for the next ECL Quarterly (so it may be beefy enough ;)
2016-09-30T18:36:55Z jackdaniel leaves \o
2016-09-30T18:36:57Z jasom: 1/2 is a ratio, not a float
2016-09-30T18:37:38Z jasom: (= 3 (* 3 1/3)) is guaranteed to be true; (= 3 (* 3 (float 1/3))) is not.
2016-09-30T18:38:02Z nullx002: sorry for typo
2016-09-30T18:38:26Z mordocai <3 ratios
2016-09-30T18:38:28Z jasom: correction: (= 1 (* 3 1/3)) is guaranteed to be true; (= 1 (* 3 (float 1/3))) is not.
2016-09-30T18:39:58Z nullx002:  (float 1/2) =>  0.5
2016-09-30T18:40:14Z jasom: nullx002: stop me if I'm telling you something you already know, but floating point is just one of many ways of representing numbers; ratios are a different one.  They can both represent fractional values though, which integers (obviously) do not.
2016-09-30T18:40:16Z _death: jasom: cool, I'll check your history.. /u/death here ;)
2016-09-30T18:40:19Z nullx002: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_float.htm
2016-09-30T18:41:05Z nullx002: jasom: i know that but it was on that page you send me to...
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2016-09-30T18:41:34Z jasom: nullx002: (float 1/2 0.0) is okay (float 0.0 1/2) is not.
2016-09-30T18:41:51Z jasom: nullx002: the first argument can be any real number, the second must be a float.
2016-09-30T18:41:56Z nullx002: so it either returns short-float or long-float value...
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2016-09-30T18:42:36Z jasom: on sbcl on x64 all floating point types are synonyms for either short or double.
2016-09-30T18:42:48Z nullx002: yes...
2016-09-30T18:42:55Z nullx002: that is what i experienced
2016-09-30T18:43:14Z nullx002: was bit confusing... syntax...
2016-09-30T18:43:19Z jasom: on implementations that use the x87 FPU, long-float is likely to be an 80 bit float.
2016-09-30T18:43:39Z jasom: and I think clisp implements configurable precision floating points as well.
2016-09-30T18:44:08Z nullx002: almost clear now...
2016-09-30T18:44:49Z mordocai: jasom: Yeah, I saw some clisp examples out in the wild
2016-09-30T18:44:49Z nullx002: that i dont know about..
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2016-09-30T18:45:46Z d4ryus: jasom: here is an example http://pastebin.com/cz2iCip7 so what i want to avoid is to type (bt:with-recursive-lock-held ((lock obj)) ...) each time i access the obj. Something like a :around method which is called around any method accessing the object.
2016-09-30T18:47:19Z jasom: d4ryus: Each lisp implementations defines its own semantics for what is thread-safe; on some it may be allowed for you to set a slot from multiple threads simultaneously.
2016-09-30T18:48:59Z jasom: I believe that slot-value accesses are atomic on sbcl, for example, but that's from memory.
2016-09-30T18:49:43Z jasom: I know you can use CAS on any of car, cdr, first, rest, svref, symbol-plist, symbol-value, svref, slot-value sb-mop:standard-instance-access, sb-mop:funcallable-standard-instance-access; it's reasonable to assume that that means stores to those places are also atomic, but you might want to check in #sbcl to be certain.
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2016-09-30T18:53:04Z d4ryus: ah okey, so there is no implementation independent solution. Do you know any elegant way to get rid of the boilerplate code?
2016-09-30T18:54:25Z jasom: specbot: standard-instance-access
2016-09-30T18:54:41Z jasom: hmm something can lookup mop, but I forget which bot in here
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2016-09-30T18:56:01Z _death: mop standard-instance-access
2016-09-30T18:56:02Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/standard-instance-access.html
2016-09-30T18:56:16Z jasom: mop setf slot-value-using-class
2016-09-30T18:56:22Z jasom: mop (setf slot-value-using-class)
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2016-09-30T18:56:39Z _death: likely be the same entry as slot-value-using-class
2016-09-30T18:56:49Z jasom: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/setf-slot-value-using-class.html
2016-09-30T18:57:07Z jasom: d4ryus: you can use that to override how setf of slot-value works for a particular class.
2016-09-30T18:57:15Z jasom: d4ryus: include defining :around methods
2016-09-30T18:57:41Z d4ryus: aah perfect, thats what i was searching for :D thank you!
2016-09-30T18:57:55Z jasom: d4ryus: note that you'll want closer-mop if you are going for implementation-independent
2016-09-30T18:58:17Z jasom: MOP is not part of the standard, but the majority of it is implemented in the majority of implementations.
2016-09-30T18:59:03Z d4ryus: ok :)
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2016-09-30T19:03:04Z jasom: d4ryus: also, time for me to say "If you're using mutexes, change your architecture"
2016-09-30T19:03:46Z jasom: d4ryus: at some point the interactions will get more complicated than what you can keep in your head at once, so manually managing mutual exclusion is a losing game
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2016-09-30T19:10:41Z d4ryus: jasom: yeah thats right.
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2016-09-30T19:40:23Z mordocai: I need a cool looking t-shirt that says something to the effect of "I'd rather be writing lisp". Anyone know of any pre-existing nice designs?
2016-09-30T19:41:04Z pipping: "need" is a rather strong word in this context
2016-09-30T19:41:19Z raydeejay: well
2016-09-30T19:41:23Z raydeejay: *he* needs
2016-09-30T19:41:34Z raydeejay: are you gonna judge that? xD
2016-09-30T19:41:42Z Xach is fond of his SAVE LISP AND DIE shirt, but it has worn out
2016-09-30T19:42:05Z dlowe: http://www.zazzle.com/light_mens_%CE%BBove_t_shirt-235917201485079573
2016-09-30T19:42:32Z raydeejay: I've pondered ordering one with the "Maxwell's equations of software"
2016-09-30T19:42:41Z pipping: Xach: heh!
2016-09-30T19:45:22Z dlowe: ^ cool looking t-shirt, in case there was any doubt
2016-09-30T19:45:30Z dlowe: also in black
2016-09-30T19:47:08Z mordocai: I'm liking the SAVE LISP AND DIE t-shirt idea I think.
2016-09-30T19:47:15Z mordocai: I'm sure I could make one with zazzle
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2016-09-30T19:48:23Z Xach: http://xach.com/img/slad-shirt-black.jpg
2016-09-30T19:48:43Z Xach marvels at how little white was in the beard back then...
2016-09-30T19:49:47Z isoraqathedh: Fluff question: %foo or foo%?
2016-09-30T19:50:13Z Xach: isoraqathedh: %foo
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2016-09-30T19:50:25Z Xach: isoraqathedh: foo% if you want the foo percentage of something.
2016-09-30T19:50:58Z isoraqathedh: Or maybe if you are doing a speedrun.
2016-09-30T19:51:20Z isoraqathedh: (But seriously, I've seen examples of both floating around in the wild, so supposedly it's just a style thing.)
2016-09-30T19:51:44Z Xach: isoraqathedh: %foo is frequently used to designate some kind of internal, possibly fragile/brittle thing.
2016-09-30T19:51:54Z Xach: I have not seen foo% used systematically in any way
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2016-09-30T19:56:17Z mordocai: To that end, should you use %foo or just not export things that are fragile?
2016-09-30T19:56:30Z mordocai: (assuming the latter is possible in your use case)
2016-09-30T19:57:04Z raydeejay: both
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2016-09-30T20:03:51Z isoraqathedh: The thing about having %names is that sometimes I have a case where a macro just so happens to just add quotes to an otherwise-function, so the function's name is just the macro's name with a % in front.
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2016-09-30T20:11:52Z knobo: Xach: thank you for new quicklisp release. Lisp would be dead without quicklisp.
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2016-09-30T20:13:29Z knobo: Atleast I would probably not use it.
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2016-09-30T20:14:11Z raydeejay: at this rate you'll be at the opposite end in an hout or so
2016-09-30T20:14:14Z raydeejay: hour* xD
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2016-09-30T20:23:21Z pipping: knobo: I hope that the fate of lisp is not as closely tied to your use of it as you're suggesting.
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2016-09-30T20:26:58Z knobo: :p
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2016-09-30T20:36:42Z mordocai: Truthfully without some kind of quicklisp-like thing I might not have ever gotten into common lisp
2016-09-30T20:36:59Z mordocai: Manually downloading and managing deps is kind've a pain.
2016-09-30T20:37:17Z Baggers: quicklisp is why im here
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2016-09-30T20:44:30Z _death: mordocai: why wouldn't you have come up with your own solution?  I had some lisp programs to help managing deps before quicklisp
2016-09-30T20:45:39Z Quadresce: most people don't want to fix the language ecosystem, they just want to solve their problemsw
2016-09-30T20:45:43Z _death: mordocai: (also, there were other solutions before quicklisp.. but quicklisp is great)
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2016-09-30T20:46:24Z mordocai: _death: Because I would have been too lazy to bother. As Quadresce. If there was an "acceptable" existing solution I may have used that. But with no pre-built solution I would have stuck with learning clojure (which I learned first and have since abandoned)
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2016-09-30T20:46:37Z mordocai: As Quadresce says*
2016-09-30T20:46:58Z Quadresce: asdf-install was terrible
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2016-09-30T20:49:28Z _death: Quadresce: sure.. there was also clbuild etc.
2016-09-30T20:49:48Z _death: btw I think main cliki page should have a link to quicklisp
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2016-09-30T20:55:26Z pipping: cliki doesn't feel all that 2016ish in general
2016-09-30T20:56:35Z _death: it's 2046.. post-web apocalypse
2016-09-30T20:57:20Z PuercoPop: Maybe cliki lacks a way to coordinate efforts?
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2016-09-30T21:04:04Z PuercoPop: plust, it is a content plataform, it can do only so much. The people must write the content
2016-09-30T21:05:01Z Baggers: Is there a way (sbcl specific or not) to modify a foreign-pointer in place? I have a struct that holds one and currently my program's consing is dominated by updating the pointer in that struct
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2016-09-30T21:09:19Z Baggers: sbcl is very clear why, (doing SAP to pointer coercion (cost 20)) but Im not sure how to avoid it
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2016-09-30T21:21:23Z TMA: Baggers: just checking the obvious: have you declared the slot type to the proper type?
2016-09-30T21:22:04Z Baggers: TMA: yeah, I tried cffi:foreign-pointer and sb-impl::system-area-pointer (which cffi:foreign-pointer is anyway)
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2016-09-30T21:25:54Z Baggers: TMA: this is my test case https://gist.github.com/cbaggers/58414d8f76ca33f76a5ff233502215f2
2016-09-30T21:30:40Z Baggers: christopher rhodes explanation here is great https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/sbcl-help/thread/AANLkTikbdzyFeMg7nDWUllF8aCbLCLxAEOFXOcsdH0SM@mail.gmail.com/ I guess I cant avoid em all
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2016-09-30T21:34:32Z Baggers: I vaguely remember an allegro talk that was mainly about mmap but covered some pointer optimizations. I'll dig that up and see if there are any usable tricks
2016-09-30T21:34:34Z PuercoPop: Anyone familiar with xlib's event/event-mask abstraction?
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2016-09-30T21:56:15Z knobo: PuercoPop: I tried to fiddle with it once, to make StumpWM react to KeyRelease..
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2016-09-30T21:58:22Z PuercoPop: knobo: but keyprelease is already a defined event, from I can see it doesn't appear to be extensible
2016-09-30T22:00:47Z knobo: Well, I don't know what you mean about abstraction in this case.
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2016-09-30T22:03:02Z PuercoPop: knobo: basically I want to be able to do (xlib:make-event-mask :screen-saver-notify)
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2016-09-30T22:06:46Z PuercoPop: otherwise I have to do the masking myself, which seems the path of least resistance
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2016-09-30T22:11:12Z knobo: PuercoPop: you want to receive the event, right?
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2016-09-30T22:14:14Z PuercoPop: knobo: send
2016-09-30T22:15:20Z knobo: PuercoPop: Because you are writing a screensaver?
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2016-09-30T22:18:49Z knobo: with XSendEvent?
2016-09-30T22:19:10Z jasom: Baggers: if you declare your types and set safety to zero, then you will avoid the overhead.  Inlining can also do so without needing unsafe code.
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2016-09-30T22:20:45Z attila_lendvai wonders what's up with some of the older lispnicks who disappeared without a trace, like Tobias C. Rittweiler
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2016-09-30T22:21:42Z attila_lendvai heads over to facebook
2016-09-30T22:22:06Z knobo: https://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/event-handling/XSendEvent.html
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2016-09-30T22:22:51Z knobo: well, good night.
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2016-09-30T22:24:49Z PuercoPop: knobo: The issue I'm looking at is how to declare *new* events. Some extensions do (defconstant +foo+ #x00x). But then you can't use xlib:encode-mask :+foo+. I can always logand myself
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2016-09-30T22:30:52Z jasom: Baggers: ah, looked more closely at what you're doing; if you store an unsigned-byte [32|64] in bar rather than a sap, then you can do it cheaply with sb-sys:sap-int
2016-09-30T22:32:21Z jasom: Baggers: sbcl doesn't have an efficient way of storing unboxed SAP but does for unboxed words
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2016-09-30T22:35:57Z jasom: Baggers: http://paste.lisp.org/+70OH
2016-09-30T22:39:08Z jasom: Baggers: corrected to include the 1+: http://paste.lisp.org/+70OH/1
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2016-09-30T22:44:42Z mordocai: jasom: FWIW Baggers got a similar answer over in #sbcl a few min ago
2016-09-30T22:44:51Z jasom: mordocai: yeah, I just now saw that.
2016-09-30T22:45:08Z mordocai: Good that multiple people are thinking of the same solution :)
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2016-09-30T22:51:20Z jasom: does ASDF ever update the binary cache of a file besides when the mtime of the source is newer than the mtime of the fasl?
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2016-09-30T23:11:14Z attila_lendvai: jasom: recent ASDF's propagate dependency much better... e.g. touching the .asd can lead to recompilation, and that may propagate to dependencies (not sure about the current state/promise)
2016-09-30T23:13:28Z jasom: attila_lendvai: I think I found the problem in any event
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