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2016-07-01T01:13:54Z elricsfate: Hello all
2016-07-01T01:14:08Z elricsfate: I'm pretty sure the source code I'm trying to run has an error in it. Is there a "cc" command?
2016-07-01T01:14:23Z elricsfate: I'm pretty sure it's trying to run gcc but there is a typo in the source
2016-07-01T01:15:07Z jasom: elricsfate: can you give us some more contect?
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2016-07-01T01:15:41Z elricsfate: Sure. I'm trying to host an API called "turtl". I've followed the instructions, installed quicklisp, and now I'm trying to actually run the program
2016-07-01T01:15:49Z elricsfate: https://turtl.it/docs/server/
2016-07-01T01:16:14Z elricsfate: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/386926/33577114/
2016-07-01T01:16:22Z elricsfate: Here is a paste starting just above the error
2016-07-01T01:17:35Z elricsfate: That help jasom ?
2016-07-01T01:19:48Z schally: you're right, it's probably trying to run gcc
2016-07-01T01:19:58Z schally: did you try correcting it to that?
2016-07-01T01:20:31Z Mon_Ouie: Maybe it just uses cc as a default command to call the C compiler when the CC environment variable isn't set?
2016-07-01T01:20:40Z jasom: It's using the groveller
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2016-07-01T01:21:50Z jasom: elricsfate: cffi-grovel:*cc* is what you need to change
2016-07-01T01:21:58Z jasom: elricsfate: what system are you on that doesn't have cc?
2016-07-01T01:23:19Z jasom: elricsfate: "cc" is the traditional name for the system C compiler on *nix
2016-07-01T01:23:42Z jasom: systems where the native compiler is gcc, it should be a copy or a link to gcc
2016-07-01T01:27:46Z elricsfate: Let me install gcc, that will probably solve it
2016-07-01T01:30:32Z elricsfate: Think taht got it!
2016-07-01T01:31:20Z jasom: great
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2016-07-01T01:32:34Z aries_liuxueyang: hey,
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2016-07-01T01:41:33Z aries_liuxueyang: how do you sort an subarray in place. this is what I do: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319577 Is there a better way?
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2016-07-01T01:46:05Z jasom: aries_liuxueyang: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319577#1
2016-07-01T01:46:30Z jasom: That works on all implementations, but I haven't decided yet if it is guaranteed to work based on the spec
2016-07-01T01:47:20Z jasom: "The sorting operation can be destructive in all cases. In the case of a vector argument, this is accomplished by permuting the elements in place." <-- not clear if this requires implementations to permute the elements in place or not
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2016-07-01T01:47:56Z jasom: Oh "
2016-07-01T01:47:58Z jasom: If sequence is a vector, the result might or might not be simple, and might or might not be identical to sequence.
2016-07-01T01:48:15Z jasom: so it's non-portable, but everything I've tried does it in-place
2016-07-01T01:48:49Z aries_liuxueyang: jasom, it's destructive, but it is array. I can not just use (sort (subseq array 1)), it does not work.
2016-07-01T01:49:09Z jasom: aries_liuxueyang: did you see my annotation?
2016-07-01T01:49:20Z aries_liuxueyang: yeah.
2016-07-01T01:49:23Z jasom: that works
2016-07-01T01:49:46Z jasom: if an implementation were to choose to make the result of sort not be identical to the array passed in, as the spec allows, then it wouldn't work
2016-07-01T01:50:08Z aries_liuxueyang: jasom, thank you so much. I use sbcl.
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2016-07-01T01:52:32Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_d.htm#displaced_array glossary entry for how it works
2016-07-01T01:53:01Z aries_liuxueyang: I am reading it. thanks for your explain.
2016-07-01T01:54:07Z pierpa: I suspect that an implementation which wouldn't sort arrays in place would break all cl program which sort arrays :)
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2016-07-01T01:55:50Z aries_liuxueyang: pierpa, in sbcl, sorting an array is destructive. (sort my-array #'<), will change the my-array.
2016-07-01T01:56:07Z jasom: pierpa: well aries_liuxueyang's original implementation would work on such an implementation
2016-07-01T01:56:09Z pierpa: it is destructive in any implementation
2016-07-01T01:56:28Z jasom: aries_liuxueyang: it is *allowed* to be destructive, it is not *required* to be; returning a new array with the sorted data is allowed
2016-07-01T01:56:43Z aries_liuxueyang: okay.
2016-07-01T01:56:56Z pierpa: ok, then let's say it would break 99.999% of programs which sort arrays :)
2016-07-01T01:57:03Z jasom: nobody does that because in-place sorts on arrays are almost always easier and faster than the alternative
2016-07-01T01:57:25Z jasom: or even for non fully-in-place sorts, reusing the storage is good
2016-07-01T01:57:55Z jasom: e.g. quicksort or mergesort
2016-07-01T01:58:22Z pierpa: no, wait
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2016-07-01T01:58:41Z pierpa: sort is not *allowed* to reuse the storage. It is *required* to do so
2016-07-01T01:58:57Z jasom: pierpa: but the result need not be the original array
2016-07-01T01:59:08Z pierpa: it need be
2016-07-01T01:59:16Z jasom: "If sequence is a vector, the result might or might not be simple, and might or might not be identical to sequence."
2016-07-01T01:59:16Z pierpa: "sort and stable-sort destructively sort sequences"
2016-07-01T01:59:34Z jasom: so it is destructive, but doesn't have to have the final result in the original store
2016-07-01T02:00:34Z pierpa: It does. "In the case of a vector argument, this is accomplished by permuting the elements in place."
2016-07-01T02:00:36Z jasom: remember "identical" means "the same under eq" so if the result isn't identical, then it is new storage
2016-07-01T02:00:50Z jasom: pierpa: I quoted both of those above
2016-07-01T02:01:09Z jasom: then I found the note at the bottom which makes it pretty clear that the sorted result need not be in the original sequence
2016-07-01T02:01:21Z pierpa: there's no doubt about what this means
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2016-07-01T02:02:01Z jasom: also you didn't quote the sentence right before that
2016-07-01T02:02:02Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-01T02:02:09Z jasom: The sorting operation can be destructive in all cases.
2016-07-01T02:02:14Z jasom: "can" does not mean "must"
2016-07-01T02:02:33Z jasom: so in context, *if* the sort is destructive, then it must be accomplished by permuting the elements in place for a vector
2016-07-01T02:02:38Z pierpa: in all cases. the it conseders the particular cases of vectors
2016-07-01T02:02:44Z pierpa: *then
2016-07-01T02:02:47Z jasom: but *can* not *must*
2016-07-01T02:03:04Z pierpa: in general, but vectors are handled later in particular
2016-07-01T02:03:17Z jasom: right, but that was the particular for accomplishing a destructive sort
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2016-07-01T02:03:52Z pierpa: let's say, that if ever the standard is updated this point will requires a clarification
2016-07-01T02:03:55Z jasom: Particularly when combined with the clarification later
2016-07-01T02:04:33Z jasom: If the sort is destructive, and sequence is a vector, the implementation must permute the elements in place.  Otherwise all bets are off
2016-07-01T02:04:54Z pierpa: there's no doubt that it mandates that the elements are permuted in place. The returned may be not eq to the input but the stores must be.
2016-07-01T02:05:09Z jasom: I disagree
2016-07-01T02:05:23Z pierpa: ok. It's not important anyway
2016-07-01T02:05:50Z aries_liuxueyang: anyway, we know the original array is sorted...
2016-07-01T02:06:37Z pierpa: but, in my opinion it must be so. In Jasom opinion this is implementation dependent and you are beng lucky
2016-07-01T02:06:47Z pierpa: *being
2016-07-01T02:07:19Z pierpa: (unless you mean your original version)
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2016-07-01T02:08:29Z aries_liuxueyang: pierpa, (setf (subseq my-array 1) (sort (subseq my-array 1) #'<)), you mean this expression may not be correct?
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2016-07-01T02:08:50Z pierpa: no, this one is correct
2016-07-01T02:09:38Z pierpa: but probably is less efficient than the version suggested by Jasom
2016-07-01T02:09:49Z aries_liuxueyang: got it. thanks.
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2016-07-01T02:10:56Z jasom: Somewhere there is a list of issues with the spec (like actual things that are wrong, as well as places that are ambiguous) my google-fu is failing me though
2016-07-01T02:11:14Z |3b| isn't sure the extra copies would be worse than the extra indirection of a displaced array
2016-07-01T02:11:33Z jasom: |3b|: he already had a fill-pointer, so it wasn't a simple-array anyways
2016-07-01T02:11:41Z |3b|: ah
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2016-07-01T02:11:58Z jasom: and size matters too
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2016-07-01T02:12:45Z |3b| wonder if SORT counts for the "traversal rules and side effects" sectin which prohibits adjusting the array being traversed
2016-07-01T02:12:55Z jasom: http://www.cliki.net/proposed%20ansi%20revisions%20and%20clarifications <-- this might be the one I was thinking of
2016-07-01T02:13:00Z jasom: |3b|: it does
2016-07-01T02:13:13Z jasom: |3b|: it specifically says it does in the sort description
2016-07-01T02:13:21Z |3b|: ah, ok
2016-07-01T02:13:34Z |3b|: i guess in that case it can optimize out the displacement
2016-07-01T02:14:11Z jasom: Does sbcl make such optimizations when traversing non-simple arrays?
2016-07-01T02:15:40Z jasom: but I do remember getting a PR for a project that switched to using displaced arrays for "performance reasons"; I suggested they run the code in the benchmark directory :)
2016-07-01T02:17:42Z aries_liuxueyang: jasom, "If make-array is called with one or more of adjustable, fill-pointer, or displaced-to being true, whether the resulting array is a simple array is implementation-dependent."
2016-07-01T02:18:16Z aries_liuxueyang: so it may not be simple array?
2016-07-01T02:18:40Z aries_liuxueyang: or may be.
2016-07-01T02:18:46Z jasom: aries_liuxueyang: that's mainly so that an implementation that chooses to not treat arrays with none of those differently can just declare all arrays are simple arrays
2016-07-01T02:20:13Z aries_liuxueyang: ok
2016-07-01T02:20:14Z jasom: As an example: an implementation might want to internally treat all arrays as if they had a fill-pointer, and make ones with no fill-pointer be fixed to the same as the size.  Then an array with a fill pointer would still be of type simple-array (as it's internally indistinguishable as one without a fill pointer)
2016-07-01T02:20:39Z jasom: on sbcl I think all of those are not simple-array
2016-07-01T02:21:05Z drmeister: How do I do a multiple-value assignment in loop?
2016-07-01T02:21:18Z drmeister: Something like:
2016-07-01T02:21:20Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/l4WE95II/
2016-07-01T02:21:28Z aries_liuxueyang: jasom, got it, thanks.
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2016-07-01T02:22:51Z jasom: for (x y) = (multiple-value-list ...)
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2016-07-01T02:40:09Z jasom: My favorite corner of the standard is an array of type nil must be a string (since it's elements are restricted to a subtype of character) but cannot be upgraded to a vector of simple-character since nil is also a subtype of bit, and so it can't upgrade to something that isn't a subtype of what bit upgrades to (and bit-vectors are required by the standard)
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2016-07-01T03:06:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-01T03:16:53Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2016-07-01T03:17:10Z beach: drmeister: Hey.  Long time no see.  What's up?
2016-07-01T03:18:14Z drmeister: Good things.   More grant money is flowing into the lab.
2016-07-01T03:18:20Z drmeister: I've been working on a new build system.
2016-07-01T03:18:29Z beach: Excellent!
2016-07-01T03:18:30Z drmeister: Incorporating a new build system more like.
2016-07-01T03:18:45Z drmeister: It's called 'waf' and it's Python based.
2016-07-01T03:19:15Z drmeister: Is (loop for (x y) = (multiple-value-list ...) ...) efficient?
2016-07-01T03:19:24Z loke: drmeister: Compared to what?
2016-07-01T03:19:35Z beach: It might cons.
2016-07-01T03:19:39Z drmeister: Consing a list just to destructure it.
2016-07-01T03:19:43Z loke: drmeister: it will cons more than multiple-value-bind
2016-07-01T03:19:59Z loke: drmeister: In most cases, I doubt anyone would notice the difference
2016-07-01T03:20:39Z loke: Arguably, nothing would prevent the implementation of LOOP to optimise for this case.
2016-07-01T03:25:05Z drmeister: Are there any drawbacks to compiling ASDF into Clasp directly?  One I can think of is if a new ASDF is release Clasp has to be recompiled.
2016-07-01T03:25:41Z jackdaniel: drmeister: not necessarily
2016-07-01T03:25:48Z jackdaniel: asdf has this macro: with-upgradability
2016-07-01T03:25:59Z jackdaniel: so you can hijack your bundled asdf
2016-07-01T03:26:09Z jackdaniel: even if it's compiled-in directly
2016-07-01T03:26:36Z jackdaniel: (of course you would have to load it every time when you overwrite it, but it's not a problem I suppose)
2016-07-01T03:26:54Z jackdaniel: s/when you/when you want to/
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2016-07-01T03:37:27Z drmeister: I see - I recall that now.
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2016-07-01T03:49:02Z mrrtrump: hey lispers
2016-07-01T03:49:11Z mrrtrump: werc.cat-v.org
2016-07-01T03:49:18Z mrrtrump: can I reimplement in lisp?
2016-07-01T03:49:38Z beach: You are hereby given permission.
2016-07-01T03:54:54Z loke: Gavino, is that you?
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2016-07-01T04:03:32Z Oladon: beach: he did ask can, not may ;)
2016-07-01T04:03:58Z Oladon: (Thus, the correct response is of course "I don't know, can you?")
2016-07-01T04:05:11Z beach: Sure.
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2016-07-01T05:20:50Z beach: This: http://metamodular.com/fig-code-tree.pdf is the result so far of my thinking about how to represent Common Lisp code in a buffer of Second Climacs.  It is designed so that when READ encounters code that starts in a code node, then the result of the previous READ is returned, and it is designed to support fast incremental update.
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2016-07-01T05:21:56Z beach: The figure is not complete.  Nodes also have (relative) buffer positions in them.  And I don't show whitespace nodes.
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2016-07-01T09:08:39Z shka: hello all
2016-07-01T09:09:29Z Munksgaard: shka: Hi!
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2016-07-01T12:14:49Z Forty-Bot: Hi, how do I properly run something like (lambda (x) (x x)) ?
2016-07-01T12:15:08Z shka: Forty-Bot: funcall?
2016-07-01T12:15:12Z shka: most likely
2016-07-01T12:15:44Z shka: (let ((fn (lambda (x) (x x))) (funcall fn fn))
2016-07-01T12:15:53Z shka: or something like that
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2016-07-01T12:18:26Z Forty-Bot: now, when I run that clisp doesn't use more memory; presumeably this is because of tail recusion?
2016-07-01T12:18:27Z antoszka: Forty-Bot: CL-USER(1): ((lambda (x) (funcall x x)) 'identity)
2016-07-01T12:18:27Z antoszka: IDENTITY
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2016-07-01T12:18:36Z antoszka: like this?
2016-07-01T12:18:44Z antoszka: Doesn't look very useful :)
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2016-07-01T12:20:26Z Forty-Bot: antoszka: I mean, it's not; it's just one of the simpler functions which can only be expressed in untyped lambda calculus
2016-07-01T12:20:45Z antoszka: Okay.
2016-07-01T12:22:11Z Forty-Bot: I was also wondering how clips handled large stacks
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2016-07-01T13:29:20Z alchmzt: if i have a nested hash table, how do i go about updating a nested value?
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2016-07-01T13:30:35Z dlowe: a) you might want to consider using a struct as a key instead of nesting a hash table
2016-07-01T13:30:45Z Grue``: a nested gethash? anyway, nested hash table is a recipe for massive overhead
2016-07-01T13:30:53Z dlowe: b) (setf (gethash foo (gethash bar hash-table)) ...)
2016-07-01T13:30:54Z alchmzt: it's a hash table from decoded json
2016-07-01T13:31:00Z alchmzt: not of my own creation
2016-07-01T13:31:02Z dlowe: oh, heh.
2016-07-01T13:31:09Z dlowe: well, b is what you want, then
2016-07-01T13:31:15Z alchmzt: k
2016-07-01T13:31:21Z alchmzt: i thought it might be something like that
2016-07-01T13:31:25Z alchmzt: cheers
2016-07-01T13:31:35Z dlowe: I mean, the inner gethash returns a hash table, right?
2016-07-01T13:31:40Z dlowe: and then the outer gethash uses it
2016-07-01T13:31:50Z alchmzt: im about to test it out
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2016-07-01T13:32:11Z dlowe: oh, and that will break utterly if bar doesn't exist in the hash table
2016-07-01T13:33:18Z dlowe: if you don't mind blowing memory everywhere, (setf (gethash foo (gethash bar hash-table (make-hash-table :test 'equal))) ...) will work, but it will create a new hash table every time
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2016-07-01T13:33:37Z dlowe: no, it won't work, because it won't set bar in the hash-table
2016-07-01T13:33:37Z Grue``: i think parsing json objects as hash tables is mostly wasteful (unless the input is really big)
2016-07-01T13:33:51Z dlowe: wasteful, but idiomatic
2016-07-01T13:34:03Z Grue``: alists are also idiomatic
2016-07-01T13:34:04Z alchmzt: if i was coding with Go, i'd use structs
2016-07-01T13:34:16Z Grue``: perhaps more Lispy, too
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2016-07-01T13:34:43Z dlowe: I meant idiomatic to json
2016-07-01T13:35:20Z dlowe: but yeah, I'm a little surprised that the json library uses hash tables myself.
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2016-07-01T14:02:07Z jacking: how to control the result (/ 1 3)
2016-07-01T14:02:39Z jacking: I hope the result is 0.33
2016-07-01T14:03:45Z jacking: but the result of (/ 1 3.0) is 0.33333334
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2016-07-01T14:05:03Z oGMo: why would you hope it's 0.33
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2016-07-01T14:06:46Z jacking: (setf *a* ( / 1 3.0))
2016-07-01T14:07:10Z jacking: I want *a*  0.33
2016-07-01T14:07:50Z oGMo: then set it to 0.33
2016-07-01T14:07:56Z oGMo: (/ 1 3.0) is not 0.33
2016-07-01T14:08:23Z jacking: yes , it is 0.33333334
2016-07-01T14:08:41Z oGMo: you could _display_ 2 digits when you print; use FORMAT
2016-07-01T14:09:01Z jacking: sometimes ,it need toKeep two decimal places or others
2016-07-01T14:09:08Z oGMo: but rounding that hard and doing any math is going to have terribly wrong results
2016-07-01T14:09:29Z oGMo: (and if you're using floats for math on money then you're fired ;)
2016-07-01T14:13:18Z jacking: for example, a is 0.2446 ,b is 0.2045 a+b=0.4491,but a is 0.245 b is 0.205 a+b =0.450
2016-07-01T14:16:47Z jacking: I want to determine the decimal digits by myself
2016-07-01T14:19:12Z Zhivago: Why do you want 0.33?
2016-07-01T14:19:52Z Zhivago: If you mean 33 hundredths, then writing (/ 33 100) is sufficient.
2016-07-01T14:20:14Z oGMo: given the examples i can only imagine "because it looks pretty" which is a fine reason to use FORMAT and a terrible reason to round
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2016-07-01T14:20:38Z jacking: Some engineering problems don't need such a high precision
2016-07-01T14:21:00Z Zhivago: Some do; it's wise to understand the problem rather than guessing. :)
2016-07-01T14:21:05Z pierpa`: no engineering problem is hurt by unneded precision though
2016-07-01T14:21:21Z Zhivago: Many are -- precision is not free.
2016-07-01T14:21:44Z oGMo: i can't think of any that's going to do well by introducing large, arbitrary error
2016-07-01T14:22:05Z pierpa`: zhivago: right
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2016-07-01T14:22:49Z jacking: Maybe my example has a problem
2016-07-01T14:23:30Z jacking: Sometimes really have such a demand
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2016-07-01T14:23:55Z Zhivago: Just explain why you want 0.33 :)
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2016-07-01T14:26:24Z jacking: but,why it shows 0.33333334
2016-07-01T14:26:39Z jacking: not 0.33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333334
2016-07-01T14:26:58Z jacking: just a joke
2016-07-01T14:27:13Z jacking: I don't know
2016-07-01T14:27:18Z Zhivago: Ah well, I'll put you down in column 'r'.
2016-07-01T14:28:11Z jacking: but I want to slove it
2016-07-01T14:28:14Z pierpa: jacking, try googling for "goldberg what every computer scientist should know about floating point"
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2016-07-01T14:28:28Z jacking: thank you
2016-07-01T14:29:03Z jacking: zhivago ,i am sorry
2016-07-01T14:29:08Z pierpa: (it's not an easy read. There are also simpler resumes on the net)
2016-07-01T14:30:54Z oGMo: pierpa: it's not that hard :P
2016-07-01T14:31:53Z pierpa: it depends on one's background :)
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2016-07-01T14:47:41Z francogrex: Hi, i admit i am still struggling with how PRINT works. for example in this case here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319617 why does it not store anything inthe *tempvar* variable while the previous ones do?
2016-07-01T14:49:29Z Grue``: i think you're struglling with how maphash works
2016-07-01T14:49:31Z francogrex: correction: (defparameter *tempvar* (maphash (lambda (k v) (print (list k  v))) table))
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2016-07-01T14:49:39Z Grue``: because it doesn't return anything
2016-07-01T14:49:52Z francogrex: Grue``: yes but can't print force it?
2016-07-01T14:50:21Z francogrex: maphash does not return but print does
2016-07-01T14:50:24Z Grue``: clhs maphash
2016-07-01T14:50:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_maphas.htm
2016-07-01T14:50:34Z oGMo: what does print matter?
2016-07-01T14:50:51Z Grue``: always returns nil. ergo, *tempvar* is always nil
2016-07-01T14:50:58Z francogrex: i was supposing it print the output into the tempvar
2016-07-01T14:51:11Z oGMo: the lambda returns go to maphash, and are not related or returned by maphash
2016-07-01T14:51:31Z francogrex: hmm
2016-07-01T14:51:44Z dlowe: I think you should read what print does.
2016-07-01T14:52:03Z oGMo: i think there's some basic misunderstanding about how functions work here ;)
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2016-07-01T14:54:20Z francogrex: print produces output suitable for input to read. It binds *print-escape* to true
2016-07-01T14:54:48Z dlowe: where does the output go?
2016-07-01T14:55:32Z francogrex: that's the question. in the firest example wherever it went it was captures by *X*
2016-07-01T14:55:49Z dlowe: which example?
2016-07-01T14:56:00Z francogrex: (defparameter *X* (print 3))
2016-07-01T14:56:15Z dlowe: ah, okay. that's the confusion.
2016-07-01T14:56:43Z dlowe: print returns the thing you pass to it.
2016-07-01T14:56:53Z dlowe: but the point isn't to do that.
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2016-07-01T14:57:03Z dlowe: you can just (defparameter *X* 3) if that was the point
2016-07-01T14:57:15Z dlowe: the point is that it writes it to an output stream
2016-07-01T14:57:19Z francogrex: my point was to make maphash return
2016-07-01T14:57:26Z dlowe: nothing will make maphash return a value
2016-07-01T14:57:37Z francogrex: i though since print returns... but I am wrong
2016-07-01T14:57:47Z francogrex: i see now
2016-07-01T14:58:07Z dlowe: so you wanted to both print the values and return the value at the same time?
2016-07-01T14:58:08Z francogrex: so intead of maphash I will use loop on the hash table
2016-07-01T14:58:15Z francogrex: yes
2016-07-01T14:58:22Z dlowe: you can do that, or you can accumulate the value yourself.
2016-07-01T14:58:39Z francogrex: also through pusing into a list or soething
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2016-07-01T14:58:46Z francogrex: pushing into a list
2016-07-01T14:58:57Z dlowe: (let ((result nil)) (maphash (lambda (k v) (push (print (list k v)) result)) hash) result)
2016-07-01T14:58:58Z francogrex: it's ugly though
2016-07-01T14:59:13Z dlowe: more or less ugly than loops hash syntax :)
2016-07-01T14:59:25Z dlowe: because loop is pretty ugly in this case
2016-07-01T15:00:42Z francogrex: true
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2016-07-01T15:01:15Z dlowe: if you use alexandria, you can use hash-table-alist which may be close to what you're looking for
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2016-07-01T15:04:34Z francogrex: hash-table-alist ok yes. thanks dlowe
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2016-07-01T15:05:36Z impaktor: Hi! I'm setting up slime (from melpa) with sbcl in emacs. My config is one line, setting inferior-lisp-program to sbcl. Yet, my REPL doesn't look as "nice" as in the tutorials I've seen (that also use sbcl), like Marco Baringer's 1h SLIME tutorial. Is this how it is supposed to be, or am I doing something wrong: http://pastebin.com/BUwGs7az
2016-07-01T15:05:52Z impaktor: Do I need to put something in .sbclrc?
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2016-07-01T15:07:44Z Amaan: What does yours look like?
2016-07-01T15:09:55Z impaktor: My .sbclrc: http://pastebin.com/FvHJsAFk
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2016-07-01T15:15:28Z _death: you shouldn't use slime from melpa.. use the quicklisp version (via quicklisp-slime-helper)..
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2016-07-01T15:16:10Z _death: and it has more to do with your emacs config.. the quicklisp helper provides some config already
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2016-07-01T15:17:32Z Grue``: wait, what's wrong with slime from melpa
2016-07-01T15:18:28Z Grue``: impaktor: put into your .emacs: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy))
2016-07-01T15:18:41Z _death: Grue: confusion that leads to such questions in the channel.. occassional breakage due to not using a proper release.. not what I would recommend for a newbie
2016-07-01T15:19:24Z impaktor: Grue`: I tried that with the melpa version, doesn't help.
2016-07-01T15:20:08Z Grue``: you tried restarting emacs?
2016-07-01T15:20:24Z impaktor: Grue``: yes.
2016-07-01T15:20:41Z impaktor: I also have a minimal .emacs for testing this.
2016-07-01T15:20:55Z impaktor: Just loads package my packages, then slime.
2016-07-01T15:21:11Z impaktor: emacs -Q -l my_minimal_dotemacs.el
2016-07-01T15:21:19Z Grue``: either way, how your slime looks depends entirely on the emacs side, not .sbclrc
2016-07-01T15:22:31Z Grue``: paste your .emacs
2016-07-01T15:22:46Z impaktor: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319622
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2016-07-01T15:24:46Z Grue``: there's no slime-fancy anywhere
2016-07-01T15:24:47Z impaktor: Hm, OK, seems I spoke too soon. Now I have facy REPL.
2016-07-01T15:25:06Z impaktor: Grue``: Right, because I tried your suggestion yesterday.
2016-07-01T15:25:14Z impaktor: But trying it now, in that file, it works.
2016-07-01T15:26:02Z impaktor: Sorry, for bothering. Now I just need it to work in my "full" ~/.emacs.
2016-07-01T15:26:34Z Grue``: I wonder if there are people who use SLIME without slime-fancy. why isn't it the default?
2016-07-01T15:27:49Z impaktor: This is what happens when I run M-x slime in my full emacs-config: http://pastebin.com/raw/JuHqPsyH
2016-07-01T15:28:14Z impaktor: I'll do a binary comment out of it to narrow down what causes this.
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2016-07-01T15:30:48Z impaktor: OK, I got it working. Strange. I was wrestling with this for a long time yesterday.
2016-07-01T15:31:06Z impaktor: Thanks for your help (and sorry for wasting your time.)
2016-07-01T15:31:42Z _death: Grue: I believe one of the slime developers (perhaps no longer active?) wanted to keep it "minimal".. and what's good enough for that developer is obviously good enough for the unwashed
2016-07-01T15:35:59Z _death: Grue: also, it is the default if you use the quicklisp helper..
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2016-07-01T15:50:24Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-07-01T15:51:24Z beach: Chapter 8 of this document: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.pdf contains my latest ideas about how to represent Common Lisp code in Second Climacs.  If you like that kind of stuff, please let me know what you think.
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2016-07-01T16:53:06Z brfennpocock: beach: Climacs2 doc: I like it, at least.
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2016-07-01T17:14:59Z reb`: beach: If you haven't done so, please take a peek at this book:  https://www.amazon.com/Human-Factors-Typography-Readable-Programs/dp/0201107457
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2016-07-01T17:28:39Z beach: brfennpocock: Thanks!
2016-07-01T17:28:52Z beach: reb`: Will do.  Thanks.
2016-07-01T17:29:58Z Cthulhux: the topic is outdated. sbcl 1.3.7 is released :)
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2016-07-01T17:30:13Z brfennpocock: beach: Pet wish list: proportional fonts alignment to appropriate columns. Terribly difficult to do in Gnu Emacs, but way nicer IMHO
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2016-07-01T17:33:29Z beach: brfennpocock: Yes, I have been thinking about that.  It would be quite nice.
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2016-07-01T18:09:25Z reepca`: beach: minor note - typo in footnote 2 of chapter 8: s/where/were
2016-07-01T18:09:45Z reepca`: minion: memo for beach: minor note - typo in footnote 2 of chapter 8: s/where/were
2016-07-01T18:09:45Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-07-01T18:24:49Z mordocai: Whoa, minion automagically makes memos when you direct something at someone who isn't here? TIL
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2016-07-01T18:28:49Z reepca`: you have to specifically direct a message at it starting with "memo for <name>:"
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2016-07-01T18:32:10Z rumbler31: minion: memo for mordocai: and it waits for you to speak next before giving you memos
2016-07-01T18:32:10Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell mordocai when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-07-01T21:44:46Z pierpa: minion: memo for pierpa: test
2016-07-01T21:44:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pierpa when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-07-01T21:44:46Z minion: pierpa, memo from pierpa: test
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2016-07-01T21:47:57Z rumbler31: hey pierpa
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2016-07-01T21:54:15Z pierpa: hoj rumbler31!
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2016-07-01T21:54:49Z rumbler31: oh lol i was trying to trigger your memo :) i failed to notice it triggered immediately
2016-07-01T21:54:59Z rumbler31: inept troll is inept
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2016-07-01T21:55:44Z pierpa: yes, it fired back at me!
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2016-07-01T21:56:24Z pierpa: minion: memo for rumbler31: here's youe memo
2016-07-01T21:56:24Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rumbler31 when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-07-01T21:56:31Z rumbler31: wat
2016-07-01T21:56:31Z minion: rumbler31, memo from pierpa: here's youe memo
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2016-07-01T21:56:45Z rumbler31: minion: memo for minion: trololol
2016-07-01T21:56:46Z minion: Buzz off.
2016-07-01T21:56:58Z rumbler31: XD
2016-07-01T21:57:08Z pierpa: rumbler31: memo for minion: prrr
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2016-07-01T22:52:46Z pierpa: who is the maintainer of mt19937?  where to report bugs?
2016-07-01T22:54:07Z rumbler31: prr
2016-07-01T22:54:21Z rumbler31: got me.
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2016-07-01T22:54:27Z pierpa: tht was for minion, not for me
2016-07-01T22:54:30Z pierpa: +a
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2016-07-02T00:07:13Z edgar-rft: pierpa: mt19937 - Raymond Toy and Robert Dodier are mentioned as the authors at the beginning of mt19937.lisp - RaymondToy is the current maintainer of CMUCL, he and Robert Dodier both can be reached on the Maxima mailing lists, details see <http://maxima.sourceforge.net/maximalist.html>
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2016-07-02T00:10:39Z pierpa: edgar-rft: thank you. However I'm not using the version included in cmucl or maxima, but the portable version from cliki.net. The cmucl people are not interested in the portable version.
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2016-07-02T00:14:28Z edgar-rft: pierpa: But the maxima folks *are* interested in the portable version, so I think it's best to ask on the maxima-discuss list if anyone can help or at least tell who is the current maintainer of mt19937. I know that Raymond Toy and Robert Dodier both read that list.
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2016-07-02T00:15:04Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-02T00:15:29Z edgar-rft: There also is a freenode #maxima channel, but the mailing lists are usually much faster.
2016-07-02T00:16:50Z pierpa: years ago, when mt19937 was new and had been ported to cl recently, I sent to the cmucl m.l. my modifications to mt19937 to make it portable cl. Cmucl people ignored it completely. They were not interested in portability.
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2016-07-02T00:17:47Z pierpa: I have not tried the maxima m.l. but they are mostly the same people. I assume they are not interested in making something portable outside of maxima.
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2016-07-02T00:18:51Z pierpa: now, the version on cliki.net says it has been ported to portable CL, but it is not really so.
2016-07-02T00:19:07Z edgar-rft: pierpa: Maxima *is* portable lisp code, what else do you want?
2016-07-02T00:19:39Z edgar-rft: what ius the specific problem with the CLiki version?
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2016-07-02T00:20:21Z pierpa: maxima is portable but it does not use short or long floats when available
2016-07-02T00:20:46Z pierpa: the cliki version, like the cmucl on, works only for single and double floats
2016-07-02T00:20:52Z pierpa: +one
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2016-07-02T00:22:20Z edgar-rft: gimme a few minutes, I have the CLiki code here...
2016-07-02T00:23:43Z gigglypuff: I know SICP doesn't use CL, but I'm just curious and won't dwell on this subject too long: Does the difficulty of the chapters after Chapter 2 get easier, harder or do they stey about the same in terms of difficulty, relative to the first two chapters. Just curious, as I'm almost done with Chapter 2. Thanks in advance, folks.
2016-07-02T00:24:18Z pierpa: about the same
2016-07-02T00:24:43Z pierpa: except in the first chapter they assume you know some elementary calculus
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2016-07-02T00:24:47Z pierpa: *chapters
2016-07-02T00:25:00Z pierpa: and subsequent chapters there's no calculus
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2016-07-02T00:26:22Z gigglypuff: That's good to hear. Would you say chapters 3, 4 and 5 are more less mathematical, pierpa? Did you get through them faster than the first two?
2016-07-02T00:26:53Z pierpa: I don't remember. I read it in the past millennium :)
2016-07-02T00:27:39Z gigglypuff: Haha, okay. Thanks for responding. Glad there won't be any more calculus.
2016-07-02T00:28:20Z pierpa: yw
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2016-07-02T00:31:19Z edgar-rft: pierpa: Your problem is that there are only %random-single-float and %random-double-float functions but no %random-short-float and %random-long-float functions to convert a %random-integer into the respective short or long float types? Have I understood that correctly?
2016-07-02T00:32:45Z pierpa: yes
2016-07-02T00:35:46Z pierpa: then, of course, writing by hand a different function for each float size is, let's say, suboptimal
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2016-07-02T00:41:18Z pierpa: as is *suboptimal* to embed magic constants in the code
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2016-07-02T00:50:32Z edgar-rft: pierpa: The CLiki mt19937 computes double-floats with a 52-bit mantissa (as defined by IEEE_754), but Common Lisp defines double-floats with a 50-bit mantissa. To me this looks as if mt19937 is meant to simulate IEEE floats, not Common Lisp floats, and IEEE has neither short nor long floats. But then again this can only be answered by Raxmond Toy or Robert Dodier.
2016-07-02T00:51:05Z pierpa: what?  common lisp does not mandate the size of double floats
2016-07-02T00:51:15Z pierpa: or of any kinf of floats
2016-07-02T00:51:52Z pierpa: edgar-rftm, you are misunderstanding something about CL floats
2016-07-02T00:52:27Z pierpa: mt19937.lisp is meant to offer a replacement for the CL RANDOM function
2016-07-02T00:52:48Z pierpa: as it is, it is incomplete, and not portable
2016-07-02T00:53:33Z pierpa: I had already made it complete and portable. Today I was looking for my old code, and couldn't find it
2016-07-02T00:54:02Z pierpa: so, I looked at the cliki version to see if the current one was better than the old cmucl version
2016-07-02T00:55:37Z pierpa: I hope to find my old code, or I'll have to redo the work (or use another portable RNG)
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2016-07-02T00:58:59Z edgar-rft: Yes, ok, Common Lisp recommends a "minimum precisision", it doesn't define a must-have "absolute precision", as described here: <http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_short_.htm> what leads to the question: is there any portable definition what number of bits the mantissa of the four float types *must* have, because otherwise you're doomed to use implementation-defined #+/#- conditional constants.
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2016-07-02T01:00:30Z pierpa: there are CL functions to interrogate the characteristics of floats
2016-07-02T01:01:01Z pierpa: see this page http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_dec_fl.htm
2016-07-02T01:01:44Z Josh_2: Why so quiet in CLnoobs?
2016-07-02T01:02:06Z pierpa: what's clnoobs
2016-07-02T01:02:13Z Josh_2: An IRC channel
2016-07-02T01:02:21Z Josh_2: Designed for me
2016-07-02T01:02:24Z Josh_2: a CL noob haha
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2016-07-02T01:03:39Z pierpa: I think noob questions are allowed also in this channel :)
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2016-07-02T01:13:14Z JuanDaugherty: it's prolly just a corner to you get sent to if you get on the adults nerves
2016-07-02T01:13:26Z JuanDaugherty: s/to//
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2016-07-02T03:12:09Z RalphFurley2: for any Dyland refugees I would advise looking at Stanza - http://lbstanza.org/ - very clean, new engineerd language
2016-07-02T03:12:28Z RalphFurley2: I would hope CL people look at it too
2016-07-02T03:12:56Z RalphFurley2: very smart people engineering this one
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2016-07-02T03:14:30Z RalphFurley2: can some Lisp folks get behind non-s-expressions? ;)
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2016-07-02T03:16:00Z RalphFurley2: I think it's time to get behind something beyond CL
2016-07-02T03:19:11Z RalphFurley2: Dylan died mostly because Apple was on its deathbead, but Dylan was a very, very verbose language
2016-07-02T03:19:40Z RalphFurley2: This is Dylan, CL, awesome Python syntax, very smart type system
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2016-07-02T03:27:00Z pierpa: I like verbose syntaxes
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2016-07-02T03:35:48Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, you ever touch Dylan?
2016-07-02T03:36:19Z RalphFurley2: verbose because mostly of the optional typing, but a lot of confused syntax decisions back in the early 90s
2016-07-02T03:36:35Z RalphFurley2: flip those reasons
2016-07-02T03:36:44Z RalphFurley2: very much syntax decisions
2016-07-02T03:37:02Z phadthai: am I mistaken or there is no macro example on the site?
2016-07-02T03:37:15Z RalphFurley2: LBStanza is dylan and CL done right...very powerful...awesome Macros...very, very bright Berkley engineers working on this for years
2016-07-02T03:37:48Z RalphFurley2: phadthai, hold on, the docs might be stowed away
2016-07-02T03:37:54Z pierpa: RalphFurley2: I browsed Shalit's Dylan manual, but never actually programmed in it.
2016-07-02T03:38:23Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, I want types
2016-07-02T03:38:35Z RalphFurley2: and I want modern syntax, but the power of CL
2016-07-02T03:38:45Z RalphFurley2: and a modern functional core
2016-07-02T03:38:55Z RalphFurley2: with multi-dispatch built in
2016-07-02T03:39:19Z RalphFurley2: can't stand OO in those other languages
2016-07-02T03:39:49Z RalphFurley2: multiple-inheritance and multi-dispatch is a far superior system of composing programs
2016-07-02T03:40:12Z pierpa: I'm scared about your "modern syntax". Probably I won't like it. Anyway, will give a look at Stanza
2016-07-02T03:40:12Z RalphFurley2: just don't compose functions
2016-07-02T03:40:20Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, Python :)
2016-07-02T03:40:33Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, give it a chance...Python is nice
2016-07-02T03:40:55Z RalphFurley2: even Peter Norvig is pimping Python as well as many CL greybeards
2016-07-02T03:41:02Z pierpa: apart from syntax, what do you like in Stanza more than CL?
2016-07-02T03:41:21Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, I want gradual typing built in
2016-07-02T03:41:23Z RalphFurley2: i want types
2016-07-02T03:41:47Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-02T03:41:51Z RalphFurley2: just give me types on function parameters and i'm 90% there
2016-07-02T03:42:05Z RalphFurley2: and give me a good type system and we can get the fluid of CL
2016-07-02T03:42:07Z pierpa: kinda like Julia?
2016-07-02T03:42:12Z RalphFurley2: yes
2016-07-02T03:42:19Z pierpa: Julia is not a bad language
2016-07-02T03:42:22Z RalphFurley2: but much more Lisp
2016-07-02T03:42:34Z RalphFurley2: this is definitely Lisp/Dyland inspired
2016-07-02T03:42:51Z RalphFurley2: the docs are there, you just need to drill down a bit
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2016-07-02T03:43:23Z RalphFurley2: these are guys that actually scrubbed a huge design like 2-3 years ago and then designed this
2016-07-02T03:43:32Z RalphFurley2: and from Berkley
2016-07-02T03:43:39Z pierpa: do you know ocaml?
2016-07-02T03:43:45Z RalphFurley2: love me some F#
2016-07-02T03:44:27Z RalphFurley2: F# is used quite a bit in Finance
2016-07-02T03:44:33Z RalphFurley2: huge in London
2016-07-02T03:44:43Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-02T03:45:05Z RalphFurley2: engineers that just wanna right algorithms and not Classes
2016-07-02T03:45:17Z RalphFurley2: write
2016-07-02T03:45:19Z RalphFurley2: oops
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2016-07-02T03:45:46Z RalphFurley2: sorry, I just hate daily OO languages
2016-07-02T03:46:11Z RalphFurley2: so I'm pimping this language, which i think, given enough people interested from the Lisp community, can take off
2016-07-02T03:46:42Z pierpa: even if the language is worthy, taking off requires years
2016-07-02T03:46:50Z pierpa: if at all
2016-07-02T03:47:01Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, need smart CL engineers to start playing around
2016-07-02T03:47:22Z pierpa: I mean, even if the language is worthy, and lot of smart people get interested, still it takes years
2016-07-02T03:47:33Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, what's your damn point?
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2016-07-02T03:47:47Z pierpa: no damn points
2016-07-02T03:47:52Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, just give up like every other language didn't have any traction when it first came out?
2016-07-02T03:48:26Z RalphFurley2: my grammar sucks..sorry
2016-07-02T03:48:30Z pierpa: the point is, I'm not expecting to have something usable this year, or next year
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2016-07-02T03:48:46Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, this is new Lisp
2016-07-02T03:48:47Z ben_vulpes: sbcl does type annotation on function args pretty well, no?
2016-07-02T03:48:49Z pierpa: then, I already said I will look at it
2016-07-02T03:49:01Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, yes brother, but CL is dead..sorry
2016-07-02T03:49:11Z RalphFurley2: no more CL
2016-07-02T03:49:30Z RalphFurley2: we need people
2016-07-02T03:50:00Z ben_vulpes rolls eyes
2016-07-02T03:50:11Z ben_vulpes: what do you even mean
2016-07-02T03:50:12Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, fine, i can program in Pascal still too
2016-07-02T03:50:47Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, this cool language, that is "almost" as powerful as CL needs people and CL is dead
2016-07-02T03:50:52Z ben_vulpes: thing has a full mop?
2016-07-02T03:50:59Z RalphFurley2: you crazy!
2016-07-02T03:51:06Z ben_vulpes: what?
2016-07-02T03:51:08Z RalphFurley2: we don't need a full MOP
2016-07-02T03:51:25Z ben_vulpes: meta object protocol should be table stakes for $langs
2016-07-02T03:51:26Z RalphFurley2: the full MOP is crazy, scientists like you!
2016-07-02T03:51:35Z ben_vulpes: nah tres useful
2016-07-02T03:51:42Z RalphFurley2: bah, bah
2016-07-02T03:51:48Z ben_vulpes: bah yourself
2016-07-02T03:51:55Z RalphFurley2: then work with these Stanza guys
2016-07-02T03:52:03Z RalphFurley2: maybe they can work it in
2016-07-02T03:52:07Z ben_vulpes: nah
2016-07-02T03:52:15Z RalphFurley2: no, no SBCL
2016-07-02T03:52:16Z ben_vulpes: this dead lang seems fine
2016-07-02T03:52:26Z RalphFurley2: i know
2016-07-02T03:52:40Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, just check it out http://lbstanza.org/
2016-07-02T03:52:47Z pierpa: don't fight over programming languages
2016-07-02T03:52:48Z ben_vulpes: am
2016-07-02T03:53:04Z ben_vulpes: "friendly syntax" makes me shit in fear
2016-07-02T03:53:13Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, dig deeper
2016-07-02T03:53:19Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, much deeper
2016-07-02T03:53:27Z ben_vulpes: syntactic whitespace?
2016-07-02T03:53:29Z ben_vulpes: weird
2016-07-02T03:53:29Z RalphFurley2: they have a very advanced type system
2016-07-02T03:53:36Z RalphFurley2: forget the fuckjng white space
2016-07-02T03:53:37Z pierpa: just the first token of the exampke program makes me run in fear :)
2016-07-02T03:53:42Z RalphFurley2: just look at the type system
2016-07-02T03:53:53Z pierpa: wtf is "defn"?
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2016-07-02T03:54:01Z RalphFurley2: clojure
2016-07-02T03:54:02Z RalphFurley2: heh
2016-07-02T03:54:15Z ben_vulpes: yeah how does defn work
2016-07-02T03:54:31Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, why does it fucking matter if its a macro or not?
2016-07-02T03:55:42Z ben_vulpes: dgaf re macros
2016-07-02T03:56:13Z ben_vulpes: but an explanation would be useful
2016-07-02T03:56:37Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, do you like their macro system?
2016-07-02T03:57:17Z RalphFurley2: "no, because it's no s-expression"
2016-07-02T03:57:28Z ben_vulpes: are you familiar with the phrase "intimicy breeds contempt"
2016-07-02T03:57:53Z ben_vulpes: dun really like clojure. just  use it.
2016-07-02T03:57:54Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, yes, very much so...that's why I live in my own house now
2016-07-02T03:58:20Z ben_vulpes: anyways, how does defn work?
2016-07-02T03:58:36Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, well Stanza is the new Lisp in town and it's going to be on the channel
2016-07-02T03:58:55Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, isn't core (def)
2016-07-02T03:59:11Z RalphFurley2: and we just assign an anymous function like other languages?
2016-07-02T03:59:45Z ben_vulpes: see that wasnt so hard...
2016-07-02T03:59:55Z RalphFurley2: godamn, i feel good
2016-07-02T04:00:13Z phadthai: on which channel
2016-07-02T04:00:14Z RalphFurley2: long time since I've played with CL...more recently elisp
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2016-07-02T04:01:07Z RalphFurley2: haven't been on freenode in a while, just came here to pimp http://lbstanza.org/index.html
2016-07-02T04:01:29Z RalphFurley2: i have nothing to do with the language, just saw it on HackerNews one day and was like wow..."modern dylan"
2016-07-02T04:02:52Z ben_vulpes: maybe ill play with it if its around in a decade...
2016-07-02T04:02:52Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2016-07-02T04:03:10Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, dude, it needs experienced programmers to flesh things out
2016-07-02T04:03:29Z RalphFurley2: take away the Clojure buzz
2016-07-02T04:03:38Z ben_vulpes: what buzz
2016-07-02T04:03:50Z ben_vulpes: i hate programming languages
2016-07-02T04:03:52Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, the buzz you CL people hate about Clojure:)
2016-07-02T04:04:13Z ben_vulpes: that sentence doesn't parse.
2016-07-02T04:04:40Z RalphFurley2: walgreens, tons of big, big companies are doing Clojure
2016-07-02T04:04:58Z RalphFurley2: walmart rather
2016-07-02T04:05:05Z RalphFurley2: big companies are doing clojure
2016-07-02T04:05:15Z RalphFurley2: it's not OO
2016-07-02T04:05:25Z RalphFurley2: but...Stanza is OO CL style
2016-07-02T04:05:31Z RalphFurley2: a superior, natural OO
2016-07-02T04:06:01Z ben_vulpes: so the pimps claim.
2016-07-02T04:06:08Z ben_vulpes: a better whatever
2016-07-02T04:06:13Z ben_vulpes: every time
2016-07-02T04:06:29Z RalphFurley2: i'm pimping and I claim...it's multi-dispatch, multi-inhertance builtin
2016-07-02T04:06:42Z RalphFurley2: methods and data are wrong!
2016-07-02T04:06:48Z ben_vulpes: yes youre quite noisy about things
2016-07-02T04:06:56Z RalphFurley2: I'll shut up, sorry
2016-07-02T04:07:20Z RalphFurley2: ..but at least I know how OO should be done right!
2016-07-02T04:08:34Z ben_vulpes: me too, "only used by experts far away from uninformed opionions"
2016-07-02T04:09:05Z ben_vulpes: like *all* programming techniques.
2016-07-02T04:09:15Z ben_vulpes: or *anything* difficult.
2016-07-02T04:09:29Z RalphFurley2: you're completely wrong
2016-07-02T04:09:35Z RalphFurley2: i think
2016-07-02T04:09:58Z RalphFurley2: Java/C# single inheritance and non-multi-dispatch is how you get your knickers in a twist
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2016-07-02T04:10:13Z ben_vulpes: nah, being an idiot is how you get your knickers in a twist.
2016-07-02T04:10:35Z ben_vulpes: smart people build robust systems out of even the shittiest tools under the worst circumstances.
2016-07-02T04:10:43Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, what are you saying man?
2016-07-02T04:11:07Z RalphFurley2: most of our most robust systems are made in C
2016-07-02T04:11:07Z ben_vulpes: quality of produced work has nothing to do with programming languages and everything to do with individuals until a team mean-reverts to average quality.
2016-07-02T04:11:09Z RalphFurley2: straight C
2016-07-02T04:11:26Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, then why the fuck do you care about Lisp?
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2016-07-02T04:11:32Z ben_vulpes: i do?
2016-07-02T04:11:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-02T04:11:40Z minion: beach, memo from reepca`: minor note - typo in footnote 2 of chapter 8: s/where/were
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2016-07-02T04:11:48Z ben_vulpes: hi beach
2016-07-02T04:11:50Z ben_vulpes: low snr today
2016-07-02T04:12:01Z beach: I noticed in the logs, yes.
2016-07-02T04:12:57Z RalphFurley2: good morning beach, i'm pimping a new Lisp language
2016-07-02T04:12:58Z RalphFurley2: http://lbstanza.org/index.html
2016-07-02T04:13:18Z beach: RalphFurley2: #lisp is about Common Lisp.  Take that to ##lisp, please.
2016-07-02T04:13:20Z RalphFurley2: and ben_vulpes might kill me for doing it
2016-07-02T04:13:25Z RalphFurley2: come on now
2016-07-02T04:13:35Z RalphFurley2: why is #lisp #CL
2016-07-02T04:13:45Z RalphFurley2: beach, take a look at the new Dylan brother/sister
2016-07-02T04:13:45Z beach: Historical reasons.
2016-07-02T04:13:50Z ben_vulpes: hysterical raisins
2016-07-02T04:13:52Z RalphFurley2: take a look...
2016-07-02T04:14:07Z beach: RalphFurley2: Please stick to Common Lisp here in #lisp.
2016-07-02T04:14:22Z RalphFurley2: beach, come on man
2016-07-02T04:14:32Z RalphFurley2: #lisp is not CL
2016-07-02T04:14:38Z beach: Yes, it is.
2016-07-02T04:14:40Z RalphFurley2: and there is no other channel
2016-07-02T04:14:45Z beach: There is ##lisp.
2016-07-02T04:15:10Z phadthai: and other lisps have their channels as well
2016-07-02T04:15:24Z beach: Check the topic.  This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2016-07-02T04:15:34Z RalphFurley2: it's a hostile takeover with ben_vulpes in cahoots i say!
2016-07-02T04:15:48Z RalphFurley2: fine, fine
2016-07-02T04:16:14Z RalphFurley2: beach, just take a look at the language anyway and I'll shut up about it
2016-07-02T04:17:47Z RalphFurley2: the problem with the homepage is that they don't have another menu option that says "For the CL community"
2016-07-02T04:17:50Z phadthai: we have a #lisp-cafe (or ##lisp-cafe) too where that discussion would also suit
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2016-07-02T04:18:49Z RalphFurley2: phadthai, so this #lisp community is completely off topic about any other lisp-like programming languages?
2016-07-02T04:19:01Z RalphFurley2: just CL
2016-07-02T04:19:07Z RalphFurley2: we can't talk about other lisps
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2016-07-02T04:19:37Z beach: That ought to be a familiar concept to you; a channel dedicated to a particular topic.
2016-07-02T04:19:47Z RalphFurley2: beach, no, the topic is #lisp
2016-07-02T04:19:55Z beach: Don't tell me you get hung up just because of a name.
2016-07-02T04:20:08Z beach: You must not read very much scientific literature.
2016-07-02T04:20:27Z beach: "What, this so called SIMPLE rewrite system is not simple at all.  Reject the paper."
2016-07-02T04:20:27Z RalphFurley2: beach, a weird, and very weak rip
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2016-07-02T04:20:38Z RalphFurley2: you don't play poker
2016-07-02T04:20:49Z RalphFurley2: he's probably a european
2016-07-02T04:21:09Z RalphFurley2: fine, fine, fine
2016-07-02T04:21:13Z RalphFurley2: yes, we're getting ugly
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2016-07-02T04:22:21Z phadthai: there also are more general programming channels on freenode too which are not language-specific, i.e. ##programming
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2016-07-02T04:22:43Z RalphFurley2: phadthai, what the hell is going on in the CL community?
2016-07-02T04:23:00Z RalphFurley2: QuickLisp by Zach..freaking awesome..besides that
2016-07-02T04:24:01Z RalphFurley2: hey beach, do if NaughtyDog old-timer engineers come on the channel, can they talk about their home-grown Lisp?
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2016-07-02T04:25:18Z phadthai: you're free to have your opinion, to not be interested in CL even...  I neither use asdf nor quicklisp but have used CL for some personal projects here and it was nice
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2016-07-02T04:25:51Z RalphFurley2: phadthai, may I ask what personal projects you used it on?
2016-07-02T04:26:34Z phadthai: an httpd, an ids, some log analyser are a few I can think of
2016-07-02T04:26:56Z RalphFurley2: i just thought of CL as a much better Gulp
2016-07-02T04:27:18Z RalphFurley2: loop sucks some say, but something funky like that
2016-07-02T04:27:30Z RalphFurley2: everybody has Node
2016-07-02T04:27:55Z ben_vulpes: no, everybody has dunning-kruger
2016-07-02T04:27:57Z RalphFurley2: phadthai, are you from asia my friend?
2016-07-02T04:28:07Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, very funny you bring that up
2016-07-02T04:28:31Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, HN has something I clicked on about that...
2016-07-02T04:28:48Z RalphFurley2: not me..I'm an average programmer and I fret over things
2016-07-02T04:28:58Z RalphFurley2: that's why I like powerful languages
2016-07-02T04:29:09Z ben_vulpes: oh you're an average programmer you say
2016-07-02T04:29:11Z ben_vulpes: huh
2016-07-02T04:29:14Z ben_vulpes: quelle surprise
2016-07-02T04:29:40Z RalphFurley2: smart languages let average programmers deal with cognitive short-distances
2016-07-02T04:29:58Z ben_vulpes: or build monstrosoties of complexity to parse text files
2016-07-02T04:30:00Z ben_vulpes: same diff
2016-07-02T04:30:11Z RalphFurley2: i said smart languages, not Java/C#
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2016-07-02T04:30:18Z RalphFurley2: and not OO
2016-07-02T04:30:35Z ben_vulpes: the only thing that can enforce simplicity is human discipline.
2016-07-02T04:30:38Z ben_vulpes: it is not mechanisable.
2016-07-02T04:30:43Z RalphFurley2: wrong
2016-07-02T04:30:49Z RalphFurley2: you're totally wrong
2016-07-02T04:30:58Z RalphFurley2: just "transform" data
2016-07-02T04:31:07Z ben_vulpes: "take it from the average programmer! you're very wrong!"
2016-07-02T04:31:17Z RalphFurley2: data is a pipeline and so are events
2016-07-02T04:31:23Z RalphFurley2: there's only events and pipelines
2016-07-02T04:32:00Z RalphFurley2: stop mutating
2016-07-02T04:32:52Z ben_vulpes: man your inability to maintain a coherent thread is pretty great
2016-07-02T04:33:02Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, you hate that i'm true
2016-07-02T04:33:07Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, let me tell you something
2016-07-02T04:33:13Z ben_vulpes: > i'm true
2016-07-02T04:33:14Z RalphFurley2: an event bubbles up
2016-07-02T04:33:23Z RalphFurley2: data bubbles down
2016-07-02T04:33:30Z RalphFurley2: very simple
2016-07-02T04:33:34Z ben_vulpes: sounds a lot like a human abstraction
2016-07-02T04:33:42Z ben_vulpes: bubbles float typically
2016-07-02T04:33:47Z ben_vulpes: so i don't really get the details of your metaphor
2016-07-02T04:33:52Z RalphFurley2: dude, no
2016-07-02T04:34:02Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, i click a button
2016-07-02T04:34:07Z ben_vulpes: hey it's your responsibility to be clear
2016-07-02T04:34:09Z RalphFurley2: there's maybe some data with it
2016-07-02T04:34:14Z RalphFurley2: hopefully not
2016-07-02T04:34:24Z ben_vulpes: talking about programming in some particular inane ui stack now?
2016-07-02T04:34:25Z RalphFurley2: "I" don't handle that event
2016-07-02T04:34:40Z RalphFurley2: it goes up the chain and someone else handles that
2016-07-02T04:34:44Z RalphFurley2: i don't care
2016-07-02T04:34:51Z RalphFurley2: the data comes down back to me
2016-07-02T04:35:04Z RalphFurley2: i handle that data that some thijng gave to me
2016-07-02T04:35:07Z RalphFurley2: that's React!
2016-07-02T04:35:26Z RalphFurley2: and that's functional, and that's why data and methods are wrong
2016-07-02T04:35:52Z ben_vulpes: RalphFurley2: has the good lsd
2016-07-02T04:35:54Z ben_vulpes: please to share
2016-07-02T04:36:37Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, brother, you haven't played around with React yet?
2016-07-02T04:36:48Z ben_vulpes: quite a bit
2016-07-02T04:36:58Z RalphFurley2: https://facebook.github.io/react/docs/thinking-in-react.html
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2016-07-02T04:37:14Z RalphFurley2: that's how software should be developed
2016-07-02T04:37:28Z ben_vulpes: frp's a pretty old snore
2016-07-02T04:37:47Z ben_vulpes: i guess a capital letter and a sv scam backed thing dazzled you huh
2016-07-02T04:37:50Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, fine, you're great front-end guy and very smart dude
2016-07-02T04:38:06Z ben_vulpes: why ty!
2016-07-02T04:38:11Z ben_vulpes: not at all but continue
2016-07-02T04:38:33Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, yep, actually I do Aurelia http://aurelia.io/
2016-07-02T04:38:51Z RalphFurley2: did my whole portal system in it Aurelia
2016-07-02T04:39:07Z ben_vulpes: some kind of nipple engine?
2016-07-02T04:39:12Z RalphFurley2: the superior front-end framework
2016-07-02T04:39:23Z ben_vulpes: > superior
2016-07-02T04:39:25Z ben_vulpes: > javascript
2016-07-02T04:39:25Z RalphFurley2: i love DD-cup engines I think
2016-07-02T04:39:35Z RalphFurley2: fine, you hate JS
2016-07-02T04:39:36Z ben_vulpes: ahaha nobody knows why i'm laughing
2016-07-02T04:40:02Z RalphFurley2: I hate JS, but we want to make lots, and lots of money so we do JS
2016-07-02T04:40:12Z ben_vulpes: nah i hate all programmers
2016-07-02T04:40:14Z ben_vulpes: er
2016-07-02T04:40:16Z ben_vulpes: programming languages
2016-07-02T04:40:20Z ben_vulpes: freudian splat
2016-07-02T04:40:22Z RalphFurley2: Typescript is kindof nice, but not for a CL programer
2016-07-02T04:40:41Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, i just try to make good money
2016-07-02T04:40:58Z RalphFurley2: and front-end SPA pays the best
2016-07-02T04:41:10Z RalphFurley2: in the states..which means it pays the best in the world
2016-07-02T04:41:17Z ben_vulpes: mhm, scamming idiots is always good pay.
2016-07-02T04:41:29Z ben_vulpes: "this software good it browsers."
2016-07-02T04:41:30Z RalphFurley2: I'm scamming?
2016-07-02T04:41:38Z RalphFurley2: comeo one now?
2016-07-02T04:41:38Z ben_vulpes: selling js solutions is scamming customers.
2016-07-02T04:41:47Z RalphFurley2: you're an asshole
2016-07-02T04:41:51Z ben_vulpes: professional fraud.
2016-07-02T04:41:59Z RalphFurley2: how the fuck do you think these browser work?
2016-07-02T04:42:03Z ben_vulpes: "this polished stone is not at all a turd!"
2016-07-02T04:42:14Z RalphFurley2: bitter, bitter, backend boy
2016-07-02T04:42:26Z RalphFurley2: i hated the browser
2016-07-02T04:42:44Z RalphFurley2: why the fuck would you put a client app in the browser?!!!
2016-07-02T04:42:55Z RalphFurley2: 15 years ago
2016-07-02T04:43:19Z RalphFurley2: then we got Canvas and SVG in all modern browsers
2016-07-02T04:43:38Z ben_vulpes: and cross-browser compatibility isn't a nightmare or insanely expensive.
2016-07-02T04:43:39Z RalphFurley2: you can do great things in CL generating cool SVG
2016-07-02T04:43:54Z RalphFurley2: nope
2016-07-02T04:43:56Z RalphFurley2: not at all
2016-07-02T04:44:05Z RalphFurley2: only IE10+
2016-07-02T04:44:22Z ben_vulpes: not my experience.
2016-07-02T04:44:22Z RalphFurley2: i can do modern css too
2016-07-02T04:44:27Z RalphFurley2: flexbox
2016-07-02T04:44:38Z RalphFurley2: which is nice since we're programmers and not css jockeys:)
2016-07-02T04:45:18Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, brother..you can sit on the backend fine
2016-07-02T04:45:39Z beach: OK, have fun guys.  I'll come back when the discussion is on topic.
2016-07-02T04:45:41Z RalphFurley2: the backend now is just a JSON pump from a database
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2016-07-02T04:45:58Z ben_vulpes: anyways my dinner is ready
2016-07-02T04:46:00Z ben_vulpes: nn RalphFurley2
2016-07-02T04:46:07Z ben_vulpes: may you feast on the lolz of your enemies
2016-07-02T04:46:09Z RalphFurley2: we fought:)
2016-07-02T04:46:14Z RalphFurley2: all good brother/sister!
2016-07-02T04:46:31Z RalphFurley2: good dinner
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2016-07-02T05:05:50Z mordocai: Anyone here use coleslaw? I'm wondering if there is any easy way to make the index.html a static page rather than the blog index (and then have blog index be a linked page in the sitenav)
2016-07-02T05:05:50Z minion: mordocai, memo from rumbler31: and it waits for you to speak next before giving you memos
2016-07-02T05:06:13Z mordocai: From what I can tell, it is hard coded somewhere that the home page is the blog index. Haven't dived in much yet though.
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2016-07-02T08:30:38Z beach: reb``: I ordered the book.  It is not exactly recent, but it may still have some good ideas about improving readability.
2016-07-02T08:30:56Z beach: reb``: Amazon says it is going to take a month or two to deliver it, though. :)
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2016-07-02T09:17:47Z aries_liuxueyang: hello,
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2016-07-02T09:28:25Z aries_liuxueyang: in common lisp, is there something like `set` in c++ STL?
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2016-07-02T09:31:00Z _death: aries_liuxueyang: you can use a hashtable with dummy value
2016-07-02T09:32:01Z aries_liuxueyang: ok,
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2016-07-02T09:33:04Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: Can you tell us what set in C++ STL does?
2016-07-02T09:33:52Z aries_liuxueyang: beach: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/set/set/ here is the documentation.
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2016-07-02T09:35:00Z aries_liuxueyang: beach: simply, "Internally, the elements in a set are always sorted" and I can insert or delete a value in log(n) time complexity.
2016-07-02T09:36:05Z Grue`: this perhaps? http://lisp-search.acceleration.net/html/binary-trees.html
2016-07-02T09:36:46Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: What comparison function do you want for the keys?
2016-07-02T09:37:04Z aries_liuxueyang: #'<
2016-07-02T09:37:41Z beach: Pretty much any balanced tree will work then.
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2016-07-02T09:37:57Z Grue`: see also http://cliki.net/data%20structure
2016-07-02T09:39:20Z aries_liuxueyang: beach, Grue` thanks a lot. ;-)
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2016-07-02T10:07:06Z schjetne: How does the Lisp community feel about Java-style hierarchal package names? E.g. it.bese.fiveam
2016-07-02T10:07:38Z schjetne: I'm thinking of introducing it in my client's next big refactoring, it seem bureaucratic, but it might make sense.
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2016-07-02T10:11:17Z phadthai: schjetne: I don't think it's the majority, but some use it
2016-07-02T10:11:34Z phadthai: i.e.
2016-07-02T10:11:36Z phadthai: 20:15 <pjb> It's in COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.UTILITY.
2016-07-02T10:12:42Z schjetne: I'd hate to have my software break because I happen to move to another country (presuming I use the ccTLD)
2016-07-02T10:12:55Z phadthai: I personally often use a similar but simpler hierarchy when naming symbols/functions
2016-07-02T10:13:28Z phadthai: which is only for instance object-method/operation
2016-07-02T10:14:11Z phadthai: i.e. instead of open-stream... stream-open
2016-07-02T10:15:12Z phadthai: interestingly that's a rarely used convention in java
2016-07-02T10:16:23Z schjetne: I think I'll make each subsystem into a separate ASDF system and just name them <company>.<product>.<subsystem> and use the same for package names
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2016-07-02T10:20:23Z schjetne: Having small systems that do one thing and do it well, which I can then compose into binaries with all the right features but none of the cruft
2016-07-02T10:22:19Z _death: may want to check package-inferred-system
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2016-07-02T10:36:15Z schjetne: _death: looking at it now
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2016-07-02T11:13:56Z schjetne: I think I'm inclined to want to explicitly define everything, I'm not too fond of languages that infer a lot from file system layout.
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2016-07-02T12:54:10Z aries_liuxueyang: http://lisp-search.acceleration.net/html/binary-trees.html in this page. MAKE-BINARY-TREE function's second argument PRED, "PRED specifies the ordering relation." what does it mean? what value can I assign to it? I read the source code, I guess it must be a function name. anyone knows? thanks. ;-)
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2016-07-02T12:58:45Z dim: hi
2016-07-02T12:58:54Z dim: is there something easy like sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address in CCL?
2016-07-02T13:04:10Z Grue`: aries_liuxueyang: probably the same type of comparison function as in #'sort
2016-07-02T13:04:14Z edgar-rft: aries_liuxueyang: to me this reads like (make-binary-tree :normal #'<)
2016-07-02T13:04:41Z Grue`: pred means predicate i.e. function taht returns true or false
2016-07-02T13:06:42Z aries_liuxueyang: but what does the :key key mean.
2016-07-02T13:07:27Z aries_liuxueyang: I thought &key TEST is #'<.. because "TEST is optional and, if given, specifies how to compare two keys for equality."
2016-07-02T13:08:19Z aries_liuxueyang: oh, TEST may be something like #'equal...
2016-07-02T13:09:01Z aries_liuxueyang: my English is so poor... ;-(
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2016-07-02T13:13:23Z edgar-rft: sort cons-cells by symbol-names in alphabetical order:
2016-07-02T13:13:23Z edgar-rft: (sort '((A . 3) (C . 1) (B . 2)) #'string< :key #'car) => ((A . 3) (B . 2) (C . 1))
2016-07-02T13:13:23Z edgar-rft: sort cons-cells by numbers in ascending order:
2016-07-02T13:13:23Z edgar-rft: (sort '((A . 3) (C . 1) (B . 2)) #'< :key #'cdr) => ((C . 1) (B . 2) (A . 3))
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2016-07-02T13:14:19Z aries_liuxueyang: edgar-rft, thank you very much.
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2016-07-02T13:15:42Z aries_liuxueyang: Is there some better documented library?
2016-07-02T13:16:13Z aries_liuxueyang: or some documents with examples.
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2016-07-02T13:19:04Z edgar-rft: The FSet libraray has implementations of balanced binary trees, here is a one-page tutorial: <https://common-lisp.net/project/fset/Site/FSet-Tutorial.html>
2016-07-02T13:19:44Z edgar-rft: The code is either here: <https://github.com/slburson/fset> but FSet also can be installed via Quicklisp
2016-07-02T13:20:11Z aries_liuxueyang: okay.
2016-07-02T13:21:07Z aries_liuxueyang: edgar-rft, I found that before. I will read that. thanks a lot.
2016-07-02T13:22:14Z edgar-rft: I don't know wether FSet is the best library for you, but it's the only binary-tree library I ever used :-)
2016-07-02T13:22:26Z aries_liuxueyang: yeah.
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2016-07-02T13:24:31Z Grue`: the problem with FSet is that it contains only immutable data structures so I'm not sure if its binary trees have necessary performance characteristics
2016-07-02T13:24:58Z beach: edgar-rft: You are not allowed to modify constant data.
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2016-07-02T13:41:52Z dim: is it possible to just print the :identity part of print-unreadable-object?
2016-07-02T13:43:58Z dim: trying (print-unreadable-object (node :type t :identity t))
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2016-07-02T15:06:05Z rme: dim: I don't know exactly what sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address does.  ccl::%address-of returns the address of a lisp object as an integer, but that's not a very useful thing, since the gc can move objects whenever it wants to.
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2016-07-02T15:07:22Z rme: dim: If you want to pass a pointer to lisp data to foreign code, you may want to look into ccl:make-heap-ivector, or possibly consider copying lisp data to stack-allocated foreign memory (allocated via ccl:rlet or ccl:%stack-block).
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2016-07-02T15:25:02Z John[Lisbeth]: What is happening when (- 1 2 3) => -4 ?
2016-07-02T15:25:35Z oleo_: that's ok
2016-07-02T15:26:07Z oleo_: aww wait
2016-07-02T15:26:09Z oleo_: no it's not ok
2016-07-02T15:26:21Z mejja: it is ok.
2016-07-02T15:26:41Z oleo_: ah yep
2016-07-02T15:26:44Z vktec: Is Scheme considered a dialect of Lisp? I've heard some people don't classify it as one.
2016-07-02T15:26:48Z oleo_: (1-2) == -1
2016-07-02T15:26:55Z oleo_: (-1 - 3) = -4
2016-07-02T15:27:19Z John[Lisbeth]: i see that makes sensr
2016-07-02T15:27:21Z John[Lisbeth]: ty
2016-07-02T15:28:51Z oleo_: try (- -1 -2 -3) and (- -1 2 3) and (+ 1 2 3)
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2016-07-02T15:29:32Z John[Lisbeth]: I understand it now
2016-07-02T15:29:36Z John[Lisbeth]: ty
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2016-07-02T17:49:14Z phoe_mezz: mezzano says hello
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2016-07-02T17:55:42Z lisp463: what's the difference between a symbol and string in lisp?
2016-07-02T17:56:40Z phoe_mezz: A string is, well, a string.
2016-07-02T17:56:46Z phoe_mezz: A symbol is an actual object.
2016-07-02T17:56:55Z phoe_mezz: Wait, let me google the proper file for you...
2016-07-02T17:57:33Z phoe_mezz: www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf
2016-07-02T17:57:55Z phoe_mezz: This one solved a real lot of questions what symbols are, at least for me.
2016-07-02T17:58:05Z phoe_mezz: Since symbols and packages are rather closely tied together.
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2016-07-02T17:58:51Z phoe_mezz: It's silly.
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2016-07-02T17:59:24Z rumbler31: also, this http://stevelosh.com/blog/2016/06/symbolic-computation/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+stevelosh+%28Steve+Losh%29
2016-07-02T17:59:25Z phoe_mezz: I'm solving other people's Lisp problems from an IRC client running on Mezzano.
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2016-07-02T17:59:49Z phoe_mezz: ^ yes, what rumbler31 said
2016-07-02T17:59:58Z rumbler31: i'm actually reading this right now
2016-07-02T18:00:13Z phoe_mezz: it's a very good article!
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2016-07-02T18:04:59Z phoe_mezz: Does anyone know what IP does the Mezzano take when running in the default VirtualBox?
2016-07-02T18:05:07Z phoe_mezz: I want to connect to its Swank.
2016-07-02T18:05:32Z rumbler31: well, thats more of a VirtualBox question
2016-07-02T18:05:52Z rumbler31: how is the vm guest network configured, on the virtualbox side
2016-07-02T18:06:12Z phoe_mezz: It is.
2016-07-02T18:06:17Z phoe_mezz: Like, uh, I'm IRCing from it right now.
2016-07-02T18:06:24Z phoe_mezz: So it's certainly connected.
2016-07-02T18:06:40Z phoe_mezz: I just don't know how to do the equivalent of an ifconfig on Mezzano.
2016-07-02T18:07:01Z rumbler31: no i don't mean is it, I mean how is it.  like is the network interface bridged through to the host, or natted
2016-07-02T18:07:02Z rumbler31: or
2016-07-02T18:07:09Z phoe_mezz: nat.
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2016-07-02T18:07:30Z rumbler31: oh i see
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2016-07-02T18:08:07Z rumbler31: you might be able to get details of the network interface from virtualbox itself
2016-07-02T18:08:11Z rumbler31: what is your host os?
2016-07-02T18:08:29Z phoe_mezz: debian sid
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2016-07-02T18:10:34Z rumbler31: so, you'll have to port forward from virtualbox to your vm
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2016-07-02T18:11:26Z rumbler31: so in
2016-07-02T18:12:32Z rumbler31: minion: memo for phoe_mezz: if your vm is configured to use nat, then virtualbox binary is acting as the nat between the vm and your host os interface.  you'll have to configure virtualbox to forward a new listen port on your host os to 4007 on the vm
2016-07-02T18:12:32Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe_mezz when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-07-02T18:14:28Z rumbler31: minion: memo for phoe_mezz: you can of course configure the vm net interface to use something like bridging, on windows this creates a separate virtual interface, as if you suddenly have another device sharing your host interface physical link.
2016-07-02T18:14:28Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe_mezz when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-07-02T18:22:26Z lisp463: in lisp, how would i go about looping through a list and counting occurences of a particular symbol?
2016-07-02T18:22:29Z beach: lisp463: A string is also an object, of course.  Strings and symbols differ in the operations that they can participate in.  A string is a vector which is an array, so the operations on arrays and vectors apply to strings.
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2016-07-02T18:23:09Z beach: lisp463: (count symbol list :test #'eq)
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2016-07-02T18:23:53Z rumbler31: lisp463: if your list is of symbols then its straightforward.  If your list is of strings that you need to convert to symbols, it takes an extra step
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2016-07-02T18:24:09Z beach: lisp463: Or (loop for element in list count (eq element symbol))
2016-07-02T18:24:46Z lisp463: would i need to define a new variable to keep track of the # of occurences?
2016-07-02T18:25:03Z beach: lisp463: Did you see any new variable in my solutions?
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2016-07-02T18:25:40Z lisp463: using loop & do functions i meant
2016-07-02T18:25:44Z rumbler31: lisp463: what exactly are you trying to do?
2016-07-02T18:26:00Z beach: lisp463: My second solution uses loop and there is no new variable.
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2016-07-02T18:26:29Z lisp463: how does lisp know what value to return then?
2016-07-02T18:26:43Z lisp463: I'm new to lisp, in case if you havent guessed :)
2016-07-02T18:26:47Z beach: lisp463: By the presence of the COUNT loop keyword.
2016-07-02T18:27:20Z rumbler31: loop abstracts the idea of iteration.  if you want to know more, PCL's chapeter on loop is a good start
2016-07-02T18:27:26Z rumbler31: with do, yes you're doing it yourself
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2016-07-02T18:28:26Z rumbler31: although you might find dolist slightly more convenient.  but even more convenient should be the count function, made specifically for this purpose
2016-07-02T18:29:49Z rumbler31: if you're new to lisp, PCL is a great start
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2016-07-02T18:39:18Z prolle: I would advice "Common Lisp: A gentle introduction to symbolic computation" myself, simply because there is exercice in there.
2016-07-02T18:39:28Z prolle: Exercice are far better than example
2016-07-02T18:39:43Z prolle: (there is example as well)
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2016-07-02T19:47:41Z John[Lisbeth]: why doesn't this work? http://sprunge.us/dISa
2016-07-02T19:48:27Z rumbler31: well... do you want the answer or do you want hints
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2016-07-02T19:48:44Z Carisius: long time i do not any lisp but you are returning nil, isnt it?
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2016-07-02T19:49:23Z Carisius: command not found: sbcl :(
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2016-07-02T19:49:54Z rumbler31: carisius: where did you install it
2016-07-02T19:49:56Z Carisius: that made me nostalgic
2016-07-02T19:50:01Z Carisius: I didn't
2016-07-02T19:50:31Z Carisius: I just noticed I do not have sbcl installed, so last time i lisped was far ago
2016-07-02T19:51:06Z rumbler31: John[Lisbeth]:  your function is returning the last form.  it computes number-p on its argument, then computes even-p on its arg, then returns ni
2016-07-02T19:51:08Z rumbler31: l
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2016-07-02T19:53:59Z John[Lisbeth]: I want it to cease computing and retutn nil when I give it a string
2016-07-02T19:54:34Z John[Lisbeth]: It works when I do it for other functions oike oddp and zerop
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2016-07-02T19:54:55Z Carisius: i think you miss a cond form
2016-07-02T19:55:10Z John[Lisbeth]: me?
2016-07-02T19:55:19Z Carisius: yes
2016-07-02T19:55:19Z rumbler31: yes
2016-07-02T19:55:27Z rumbler31: you don't have any flow control in there.
2016-07-02T19:55:32Z Carisius: https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~matuszek/LispText/lisp-cond.html
2016-07-02T19:56:33Z John[Lisbeth]: yeah I was missing my if ty
2016-07-02T19:56:46Z rumbler31: you'd need more than one
2016-07-02T19:57:20Z rumbler31: er nm
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2016-07-02T20:23:42Z John[Lisbeth]: hoe can I
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2016-07-02T20:24:12Z John[Lisbeth]: How can I do (< 1 2 3)?
2016-07-02T20:24:22Z John[Lisbeth]: Why does it take 3 args?
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2016-07-02T20:27:47Z rme: John[Lisbeth]: please see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm#LT
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2016-07-02T20:32:44Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: because it's more practical than (and (< 1 2) (< 2 3)).
2016-07-02T20:32:58Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: same as (+ 1 2 3) is more practican than (+ 1 (+ 2 3))
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2016-07-02T20:34:10Z raxr: what does this error mean: Argument X is not a NUMBER: NIL
2016-07-02T20:34:33Z raxr: argument x is not a number but is being handled like one?
2016-07-02T20:35:34Z rme: It seems to be saying that although X was expected to be a number, X is in fact NIL.
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2016-07-02T20:42:40Z phoe_krk: raxr: you fed a NIL to a function that expects a NUMBER
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2016-07-02T20:51:54Z pjb: raxr: also, possibly, you fed an argument to a function such as at some point it computed a NIL instead of a number and fed it that function expecting a number.
2016-07-02T20:52:26Z pjb: raxr: or possibly too, you wrote that function buggy so that it always computes a NIL to feed to the function expecting a number.
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2016-07-02T21:27:38Z froggey: phoe_krk: you need to configure virtualbox so it forwards the swank port out to the host, then you should be able to connect to it as if it was running on localhost
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2016-07-02T21:53:44Z Ralt: hi
2016-07-02T21:54:35Z Ralt: I was wondering if there's a way to map some byte vector directly into a struct
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2016-07-02T21:55:11Z Ralt: like in C, we can do `struct foo bar = (struct foo) some_memory;` and it'll work
2016-07-02T21:55:43Z Ralt: I have a struct (well, currently a class, but could be a struct) with a lot of fields, and I get a byte vector which I just need to map in it
2016-07-02T21:55:52Z Ralt: having to do every field manually sounds like a pain...
2016-07-02T21:55:56Z Ralt: maybe there's something?
2016-07-02T21:56:32Z Ralt: if I can loop through a class fields, maybe? (but then I have to worry about order)
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2016-07-02T21:58:03Z Grue`:  Ralt: structs can be vectors
2016-07-02T21:58:56Z Ralt: Grue`: what do you mean?
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2016-07-02T22:02:34Z Grue`: (defstruct (test-str (:type vector)) a b c d)
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2016-07-02T22:03:00Z Grue`: then to get 4th element of simple-vector vec, you call (test-str-d vec)
2016-07-02T22:03:27Z Ralt: and you can change the size of each field?
2016-07-02T22:03:30Z Grue`: it has to be simple-vector though, from what I understand
2016-07-02T22:04:38Z Ralt: I'm going to search the doc about this, thanks!
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2016-07-02T22:06:07Z Grue`: if you want each slot to combine several array cells somehow, it's probably not possible
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2016-07-02T22:06:52Z Ralt: there's not much point then, a simple deftype is enough in this case, no? am I missing something?
2016-07-02T22:08:53Z Grue`: the point is to be able to have named accessors to nth element of list/vector instead of (elt foo n)
2016-07-02T22:09:05Z Ralt: I see
2016-07-02T22:09:12Z Grue`: have you read http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-parsing-binary-files.html
2016-07-02T22:09:23Z Ralt: hm, I did, a long time ago
2016-07-02T22:09:27Z Grue`: it has some macros that might be useful
2016-07-02T22:09:29Z Ralt: and it seems relevant, thanks
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2016-07-02T22:54:24Z raxr: what is the best to keep track of how many times a recursive function calls itself?
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2016-07-02T23:13:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: raxr: jThe simplest way is to add an optional argument that increments every time it calls itself
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2016-07-02T23:15:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can then put the recursive part in a (LABELS) form to hide the counter.
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2016-07-02T23:16:07Z raxr: how do i add an optional parameter to a function and set its default value
2016-07-02T23:17:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: (defun my-function (a b &optional (counter 0)) ...)
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2016-07-02T23:18:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, it might be better to do (defun my-function (a b) (labels ((_inner (a b &optional (counter 0))...)) (_inner a b))
2016-07-02T23:19:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you're just doing this for debug purposes, you might look at trace
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2016-07-02T23:19:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs trace
2016-07-02T23:19:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm
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2016-07-03T00:09:13Z raxr: what does this error mean: during macroexpansion of (LOOP FOR X ...). Use *BREAK-ON-SIGNALS* to intercept ?
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2016-07-03T00:10:27Z Quadrescence: raxr, your LOOP is probably malformed
2016-07-03T00:14:48Z raxr: in lisp is there such a thing as an explicit return statement?
2016-07-03T00:15:40Z Quadrescence: raxr, RETURN-FROM and RETURN
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2016-07-03T00:19:17Z phadthai: tagbody, although rarely used in high level code, can also allow arbitrary goto-style flow if it can be useful (it's usually used by higher level loop macros)...  and you can also have functions that return nothing, using (values)
2016-07-03T00:21:12Z phadthai: raxr: if necessary, you can macroexpand that loop too
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2016-07-03T00:21:45Z phadthai: to see what really occurs inside (assuming it's parsable by the loop macro, though :)
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2016-07-03T00:25:04Z raxr: i fixed the error but my function is returning nil when it should be returning a list. I'm passing in an optional parameter with default value of empty list and in the program that empty list gets values appended to it inside a do block while looping through a non-empty list. i then return the newly created list. the calls to loop and return are inside a progn function. Why is the program returning nil?
2016-07-03T00:26:19Z raxr: I removed the progn and explicit return statement, still returning NIL
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2016-07-03T00:27:30Z phadthai: hmm some list modifications can be destructive, but I can't confirm that's what's happening
2016-07-03T00:28:07Z Quadrescence: raxr, it's best to just paste code (or maybe i missed it)
2016-07-03T00:29:41Z raxr: (defun iter (lst &optional (newlst '()) )   (loop for x in lst      do (append newlst (+ x (position x lst :test #'equal)))   ) )
2016-07-03T00:29:46Z raxr: newlst is what I want to return
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2016-07-03T00:30:25Z Quadrescence: raxr, (setf newlist (append newlist ...))
2016-07-03T00:30:55Z Quadrescence: also append takes lists, so you probably want (append newlist (list (+ x ...
2016-07-03T00:32:08Z Quadrescence: (loop :for x :in lst :do (setf newlst (append newlst (list (+ x (position x lst :test 'equal))))) :finally (return newlst))
2016-07-03T00:32:43Z phadthai: this is a case where append is destructive and you must use its return value
2016-07-03T00:32:53Z phadthai: as Quadrescence suggests
2016-07-03T00:33:18Z raxr: any alternative to append I can use?
2016-07-03T00:33:31Z phadthai: (it can modify cons cells for performance, rather than copying all elements to a new list)
2016-07-03T00:34:16Z phadthai: concatenate copies non-destructively if I remember
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2016-07-03T00:34:46Z phadthai: you still need to use its result, which is a new sequence
2016-07-03T00:34:54Z Quadrescence: append is non-destruction IIRC
2016-07-03T00:34:58Z Quadrescence: NCONC is destructive
2016-07-03T00:35:00Z phadthai: aah nconc would be
2016-07-03T00:35:01Z phadthai: yes
2016-07-03T00:35:15Z Quadrescence: even with NCONC you still want to SETF
2016-07-03T00:35:29Z phadthai: even more so
2016-07-03T00:36:11Z raxr: (defun iter (lst &optional (newlst '()) )   (loop for x in lst      do (setf newlst (append newlst (list (+ x (position x lst :test #'equal)))))   ) )
2016-07-03T00:36:15Z raxr: still returning NIL
2016-07-03T00:37:09Z Quadrescence: look at what I wrote
2016-07-03T00:37:21Z Quadrescence: and notice the final  :finally (return newlst)
2016-07-03T00:37:25Z edgar-rft: hint: there are :append and :nconc LOOP keywords that save you the SETF
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2016-07-03T00:40:12Z raxr: finally is part of the loop macro?
2016-07-03T00:40:57Z Quadrescence: yes
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2016-07-03T00:41:10Z pierpa: raxr: you can't learn CL by tryinf things at random
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2016-07-03T01:09:11Z Fare: NCONC rule #1: never use NCONC
2016-07-03T01:09:43Z Fare: if you're using NCONC, you're doing it wrong.
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2016-07-03T01:14:19Z John[Lisbeth]: what separates a lisp from something that is not a lisp?
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2016-07-03T01:16:32Z adlai: anybody here familiar with cl-collide?
2016-07-03T01:21:04Z Fare: John[Lisbeth], I would say homoiconicity and metaprogramming
2016-07-03T01:23:12Z John[Lisbeth]: I will google those. Another way to phrase my question is how does someone go about proving that a language is a lisp.
2016-07-03T01:25:01Z rszeno if somebody pretend that is lisp then will have some proves
2016-07-03T01:28:02Z rszeno: adlai, can you provide a link to cl-collide?
2016-07-03T01:30:07Z rszeno I found byulparan github
2016-07-03T01:39:09Z adlai: rszeno: yep that's the one. I get an error after the defsynth example in the readme: exception in GraphDef_Recv: UGen 'Control' not installed.
2016-07-03T01:39:17Z Fare: John[Lisbeth], I'd say that if the syntax of programs is represented with recursive list data structures, it's a Lisp.
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2016-07-03T03:51:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-03T03:54:55Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: There is no consensus when it comes to the definition of "Lisp" or "a Lisp".  There is a lot of wasted energy here between people who argue whether some language is or is not a Lisp.
2016-07-03T03:54:57Z beach: The disagreement comes from their differences in what they consider required for a language to be "a Lisp".  But instead of recognizing that difference, they keep arguing.  I guess perhaps they just like to argue.
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2016-07-03T03:58:02Z John[Lisbeth]: Well would you say c is a lisp?
2016-07-03T03:58:28Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: What I say is not important.  Like I said, there is no consensus.
2016-07-03T03:58:55Z John[Lisbeth]: So then some would and could validly say that c is a lisp.
2016-07-03T03:59:04Z Bike: there's basically no criteria to validate a definition
2016-07-03T03:59:14Z John[Lisbeth]: What about lambda calculus?
2016-07-03T03:59:20Z Bike: i think you're missing the point
2016-07-03T03:59:21Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: People are free to say what they want.
2016-07-03T03:59:33Z John[Lisbeth]: Bike: perhaps
2016-07-03T03:59:55Z Bike: listen, i'm a biologist. there are huge arguments over what a "species" is. it's sort of silly, but also sort of important because it ties into evolutionary concerns and data
2016-07-03T03:59:59Z Bike: with lisp there is not even that
2016-07-03T04:00:03Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Right now you are engaging in the very type of conversation that I just said is a complete waste of time because there is no consensus.
2016-07-03T04:00:21Z Bike: so everybody just says whatever they feel is right, and because everyone is using unspoken non-criteria it's pointless
2016-07-03T04:00:41Z beach: Exactly.
2016-07-03T04:01:18Z John[Lisbeth]: So it is a myth then that something can or can not be a lisp.
2016-07-03T04:01:34Z beach: And then there is this other phenomenon here.  Anybody who feels qualified to design a new programming language will typically come to #lisp because there is an active exchange here, so they feel compelled to argue that their new language is "a Lisp".
2016-07-03T04:01:37Z John[Lisbeth]: Lisp is just a word designed to describe a family of programming languages
2016-07-03T04:02:18Z John[Lisbeth]: Do you think that's why I've come here? I've given up writing a language a long time ago.
2016-07-03T04:02:40Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: No, I don't think that is why you came here.
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2016-07-03T04:03:14Z John[Lisbeth]: If I write a compiler I will probably make it closed source so that it can not spread into a language.
2016-07-03T04:04:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I am simply curious about the differences between languages from the lisp family and languages not from the lisp family, because I meet alot of people who tell me that I could never achieve anythign meaningful in lisp.
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2016-07-03T04:04:50Z John[Lisbeth]: They say lisp can not do what c can do or be as fast as c, but other people tell me it can.
2016-07-03T04:05:03Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: I take a very pragmatic approach, and I know others here do as well.  I define "a Lisp" to be "an implementation of Common Lisp".  That way it is very precisely defined.
2016-07-03T04:05:25Z John[Lisbeth]: There are lisps that predate lisp, though.
2016-07-03T04:05:28Z John[Lisbeth]: I mean predate cl
2016-07-03T04:05:37Z beach: Whatever.
2016-07-03T04:05:55Z Bike: people having weird ideas is separate from definitions, anyway.
2016-07-03T04:06:08Z John[Lisbeth]: Clearly lisp allows for things which are possible in c but would be very difficult to implement modify and debug
2016-07-03T04:06:24Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: You can never argue with people like that, simply because they are not out to find the truth.
2016-07-03T04:06:38Z John[Lisbeth]: But that means most of the work force will not hire me.
2016-07-03T04:06:51Z Bike: well, you can learn to use more than one system, for one
2016-07-03T04:07:08Z John[Lisbeth]: I feel like if I don't spend time in common lisp then I might as well have never lived at all.
2016-07-03T04:07:25Z Bike: that seems extreme
2016-07-03T04:08:06Z John[Lisbeth]: Well that's how I feel.
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2016-07-03T04:08:13Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Sometimes there are some hard choices that one has to make in life.
2016-07-03T04:09:16Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: For many employers, you can get away with telling them what they want to hear, and then do what you want anyway.
2016-07-03T04:09:17Z John[Lisbeth]: I feel like I personally have to fight for open source/bsd license software tooth and nail.
2016-07-03T04:09:45Z John[Lisbeth]: Emacs makes it somewhat less bad
2016-07-03T04:09:55Z John[Lisbeth]: Because you escape syntax hell basically
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2016-07-03T04:12:55Z edgar-rft: John[Lisbeth]: A programming language is only a Lisp when people cannot agree wether it's a Lisp. When people can agree that C is not a Lisp, then C is not a Lisp because a) people can agree, and b) it's not a Lisp.
2016-07-03T04:13:33Z edgar-rft: ...or at least that's what I would tell in such situations
2016-07-03T04:13:48Z Quadrescence: C can't be a lisp because C is compiled and Lisp is slow~
2016-07-03T04:18:29Z edgar-rft: For me the most important characteristic of a Lisp is that Lisp source code (written as lists) is a Lisp data type.
2016-07-03T04:18:54Z beach: Seriously?  Are we really going to discuss this?
2016-07-03T04:19:28Z Quadrescence: ;-)
2016-07-03T04:20:44Z edgar-rft: No.
2016-07-03T04:20:52Z beach: Thanks.
2016-07-03T04:21:27Z Quadrescence: beach, have you thought about having fine-grained declaration support in SICL
2016-07-03T04:22:05Z Quadrescence: beach, one thing I have issues with in CL is that SPEED,SAFETY,DEBUG,SPACE have all of these implementation-dependent non-memorable rules associated with them
2016-07-03T04:22:25Z Quadrescence: every time i look something up it feels like i have to solve a discrete optimization problem to get the behavior i want
2016-07-03T04:23:19Z beach: Quadrescence: For Cleavir, I will have an implementation-specific method on some generic function that will translate those into a larger set of fine-grained compilation parameters.
2016-07-03T04:23:43Z beach: But whether those parameters are available as declarations is up to the implementation as well.
2016-07-03T04:23:48Z Quadrescence: (my canonical example is wanting TCE for a particular function without importing the kitchen sink of optimizations)
2016-07-03T04:23:51Z beach: For SICL, I haven't given it much thought.
2016-07-03T04:24:09Z beach: Yes, something like that is definitely needed.
2016-07-03T04:24:36Z beach: It might be a good idea to make them available as declarations in SICL.
2016-07-03T04:25:11Z John[Lisbeth]: I think really lisp is just the current version of a family of languages/compilers
2016-07-03T04:25:17Z Quadrescence: It would be nice if there was a (defun expand-declarations (speed safety debug ...) ...) which just expanded into the implementation-dependent set of fine-grained "optimizations" or whatever you want to call them
2016-07-03T04:25:40Z John[Lisbeth]: and you could in theory slowly modidy a c compiler until it could do things lisp could do and then it coudl quiclky adopt the features of lisps. And this could be done with any language.
2016-07-03T04:25:42Z Quadrescence: function/method/whatever
2016-07-03T04:25:47Z John[Lisbeth]: And the only limitation is the imagination of the creators of the compiler.
2016-07-03T04:26:25Z beach: Quadrescence: For Cleavir, I don't want to impose on an implementation that those parameters be available as declarations.  That is up to the implementation.
2016-07-03T04:26:37Z beach: Quadrescence: But for SICL, I can decide myself. :)
2016-07-03T04:26:43Z Quadrescence: Yes right
2016-07-03T04:30:19Z John[Lisbeth]: In theory perl could slowly evolve over time to become lisp, and perl can already do lispy things.
2016-07-03T04:30:46Z John[Lisbeth]: What I am trying to measure in my head now is whether or not common lisp is better than c.
2016-07-03T04:31:12Z Bike: establish criteria by which to make decisions
2016-07-03T04:32:07Z John[Lisbeth]: It's hard to quantify it. It's from 3 years of reading random articles and talking to random people in irc and interviewing them about their languages.
2016-07-03T04:32:15Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: If only it were as simple as that.  There is no linear objective "better than" relation that can be applied to programming languages.  That is why there is endless debates with undefined terminology.
2016-07-03T04:32:37Z John[Lisbeth]: It's hard for me to accept that common lisp is not better.
2016-07-03T04:32:57Z John[Lisbeth]: What I am interested in is the longevity of code.
2016-07-03T04:32:59Z Bike: but you don't even know what "better" means!
2016-07-03T04:33:12Z John[Lisbeth]: I am studying the possibility of making code which will run 40 years from now.
2016-07-03T04:33:23Z John[Lisbeth]: or 40,000 years from now.
2016-07-03T04:33:25Z John[Lisbeth]: or on an alien computer
2016-07-03T04:33:55Z Bike: you should start with considering things like whether they will use digital computers or a global clock
2016-07-03T04:34:45Z beach: Quadrescence: What I have done so far in Cleavir is that I have a class called OPTIMIZE-QUALITIES and another class called COMPILATION-PARAMETERS (or something like that) and a generic function that creates initargs to create an instance of the second one.
2016-07-03T04:34:47Z beach: That generic function uses the APPEND method combination with MOST-SPECIFIC-FIRST.  That way, I can establish reasonable defaults, but the implementation can override all aspects of it, such as defining subclasses and modifying the default without too much work.
2016-07-03T04:35:11Z Quadrescence: makes sense
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2016-07-03T04:36:40Z beach: Quadrescence: The implementation can define declarations that alter the compilation parameters, or they can invent new AST types that temporarily alter it in the scope of the body of that AST.
2016-07-03T04:37:16Z phf: does anybody know how to enable an equivalent of autodoc in lispworks. i.e. get the editor to show function arguments of the current function in the minibuffer
2016-07-03T04:37:30Z Quadrescence: use slime
2016-07-03T04:37:42Z Quadrescence: oops sorry that was a terrible answer, i didn't process the question
2016-07-03T04:38:34Z phf was about to go ballistic
2016-07-03T04:39:27Z phf: i might end up doing that anyway, but i'm trying to explore the native features for now.
2016-07-03T04:40:14Z Quadrescence: lispworks with slime works pretty well, if you make a console image
2016-07-03T04:41:01Z Quadrescence: the only negative bit is that *TERMINAL-IO* doesn't support unicode, so beware of getting an error in Lisp code that contains unicode characters that gets (attempted to) printed in the error
2016-07-03T04:41:01Z phf: does it still CAPI? that's the main reason i'm using it
2016-07-03T04:41:55Z phf: i'd imagine a console image on mac wouldn't capi, since mac wants you to have complete application bundle
2016-07-03T04:43:10Z Quadrescence: phf, CAPI still works fine, but there's a bug/issue with emacs taking the focus of a window, at least on mac
2016-07-03T04:43:16Z Quadrescence: so there are occasional bugs there
2016-07-03T04:43:32Z Quadrescence: e.g., mouse wheel events get sent to emacs, not the CAPI window
2016-07-03T04:43:48Z Quadrescence: phf, console image works perfectly fine on mac
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2016-07-03T04:44:34Z phf: well, i remembered about weitz's ls-add-ons package, which has "insert space and show args" command
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2016-07-03T09:32:28Z Grue`: "Fare: if you're using NCONC, you're doing it wrong." I probably use it more than append...
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2016-07-03T10:50:57Z phoe_krk: What is the proper/recommended way to structure one's Lisp program when writing one in an OO way?
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2016-07-03T10:51:35Z phoe_krk: I found myself subconsciously trying to implement a Java-style interface in Lisp and I wonder if I can do better.
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2016-07-03T10:56:08Z schjetne: I rarely follow a particular pattern, but sometimes I like to put all the generic functions in one neat file defining the interface, and then implementing the classes and methods elsewhere.
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2016-07-03T10:57:44Z phoe_krk: schjetne: I wanted to do the same and I need help with this.
2016-07-03T10:58:07Z phoe_krk: I want to (defgeneric send (message recipient)).
2016-07-03T10:58:18Z phoe_krk: But at the same time I want to declare the possible recipients somewhere nearby.
2016-07-03T10:58:33Z phoe_krk: I can't DEFMETHOD because this requires an implementation in the same place.
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2016-07-03T11:00:22Z schjetne: You mean you're using multiple dispatch and don't know whether to define the methods near the message classes or the recipient classes?
2016-07-03T11:00:32Z phoe_krk: No no.
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2016-07-03T11:00:53Z phoe_krk: I'm using multiple dispatch and I want to note the possibilities somewhere nearby the defgeneric.
2016-07-03T11:00:57Z Grue`: it's all in the same image in Lisp, it doesn't matter in which file everything is located
2016-07-03T11:01:20Z phoe_krk: Grue`: it's not my issue, it's the issue in how I should structure my code.
2016-07-03T11:01:40Z Grue`: defgeneric can't possibly know the possibilities, it's up to the objects to implement the methods
2016-07-03T11:02:01Z phoe_krk: I'm doing way too much Java.
2016-07-03T11:02:17Z Grue`: maybe someone else who uses your code will add their own methods
2016-07-03T11:02:40Z schjetne: Maybe note it in the docstrings for the generic functions?
2016-07-03T11:03:37Z phoe_krk: schjetne: sounds good.
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2016-07-03T11:04:12Z phoe_krk: One more question - does the specialization on all Ts *always* take the bottom of the method precedence list?
2016-07-03T11:04:33Z phoe_krk: Also, what's the MOP function to see that list?
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2016-07-03T11:20:44Z schjetne: phoe_krk: I'm afraid I don't have a good answer off the top of my head. I saw a neat diagram of the method dispatch rules somewhere, I wish I could remember where.
2016-07-03T11:21:30Z phoe_krk: schjetne: okay. Thanks.
2016-07-03T11:22:09Z phoe_krk: I'll reread http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html
2016-07-03T11:22:59Z schjetne: Yeah, that's where I usually go for a refresher when I need to use one of the more unusual method combinations
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2016-07-03T11:25:06Z Grue`: clhs compute-applicable-methods
2016-07-03T11:25:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comput.htm
2016-07-03T11:25:14Z Grue`: it's not even MOP
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2016-07-03T11:30:21Z schjetne: I'm sitting here with a ~2GB dataset, I wonder if I dare pitching the idea of keeping it all in memory in a Lisp image instead of the industry best practice of blowing the entire project budget on an Oracle license
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2016-07-03T11:51:27Z edgar-rft: schnetje: Just simply send all the budget to me. You will get nothing except that you'll know *exactly* why your project doesn't work. This will save you *lots* of useless debugging.
2016-07-03T11:52:33Z _death: 2gb is pretty small
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2016-07-03T12:01:13Z ym: There is an example in "Lisp Recipes" book on 3rd page: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319748
2016-07-03T12:01:33Z ym: I don't get it. Is symbol foo really created?
2016-07-03T12:01:45Z ym: I thought quote is reader macro.
2016-07-03T12:02:25Z ym: Does it created but not interned?
2016-07-03T12:02:35Z Grue`: created and interned
2016-07-03T12:05:13Z _death: the expression gets read; the quote read macro expands into (quote foo), the reader then encounters "foo" and interns a symbol with the name "FOO" (assuming the default readtable case, :upcase)
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2016-07-03T12:06:30Z _death: (well, the quote read macro actually invokes the reader to read the next expression, which then causes the reader to intern it)
2016-07-03T12:06:56Z phoe_krk: I just created a bad Lisp joke
2016-07-03T12:07:07Z phoe_krk: (defvar *foo* 'updog)
2016-07-03T12:07:15Z phoe_krk: so someone else may (describe 'updog)
2016-07-03T12:08:36Z ym: Got it, thanks.
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2016-07-03T12:32:09Z schjetne: I wonder where QPX keeps all the flight data. Maybe they went the in-memory storage route too.
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2016-07-03T12:43:18Z schjetne: beach: I looked at Clobber as we talked about at ELS, and I like the concept, especially not having to worry about serialization of snapshots not staying valid as implementation changes. But I'd be paranoid of any transaction in the log going missing or getting out of order and ruining the whole thing.
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2016-07-03T12:51:16Z phoe_krk: Is there a variant of DEFGENERIC that errors if a generic function of the same name already exists?
2016-07-03T12:52:05Z phoe_krk: Or do I need to write one myself? It seems simple enough.
2016-07-03T12:52:08Z pjb: the later.
2016-07-03T12:52:17Z phoe_krk: Okay.
2016-07-03T12:55:51Z Grue`: you aren't planning to ever reload your code?
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2016-07-03T12:58:37Z phoe_krk: Grue`: right. But I'm trying to create a framework that allows for a bit more flexibility than the usual defgeneric/defmethod.
2016-07-03T12:59:04Z phoe_krk: I'm still struggling with how to define what and how my program should be doing inside, that internal protocol as beach calls it.
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2016-07-03T13:17:50Z phoe_krk: (defmethod foo)
2016-07-03T13:17:54Z phoe_krk: I'm surprised this works
2016-07-03T13:19:00Z phoe_krk: At least on SBCL.
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2016-07-03T13:51:29Z beach: schjetne: Sure, for a particular idea, there are always situations where it won't work.  And most of the time, those situations are not explicitly indicated.
2016-07-03T13:52:52Z beach: schjetne: One such example would be in a traditional database system to carefully write to disk in the right order, only to discover that the disk controller reorganized it and then had a power cut.
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2016-07-03T13:57:51Z shka_: hi all
2016-07-03T13:57:57Z shka_: i'm writing hash function
2016-07-03T13:58:04Z beach: Hello shka.
2016-07-03T13:58:11Z shka_: beach: hi, how are you?
2016-07-03T13:58:16Z shka_: i was wondering
2016-07-03T13:58:27Z shka_: how can i allow overflows
2016-07-03T13:58:32Z beach: I am fine, thanks.
2016-07-03T14:00:36Z shka_: i'm under impression that ash will promote fixnum to integer if result wont fit into fixnum
2016-07-03T14:00:40Z shka_: is that correct?
2016-07-03T14:01:23Z beach: Yes.
2016-07-03T14:01:40Z beach: clhs mod
2016-07-03T14:01:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_mod.htm
2016-07-03T14:02:08Z shka_: i would want to allow overflows
2016-07-03T14:02:28Z shka_: those are harmless in my function
2016-07-03T14:02:49Z shka_: is there any obvious way to do it?
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2016-07-03T14:19:23Z schjetne: beach: I'm considering BKNR for my user data which has both snapshots and transaction logging, and the aforementioned ~2GB of data can be loaded at compile time, because it only changes on rare but predictable occasions, no persistence (beyond the image itself) is necessary.
2016-07-03T14:19:45Z schjetne: I see there are virtual machines with memory to the order of terabytes available nowadays
2016-07-03T14:20:33Z beach: I would go for it.
2016-07-03T14:21:12Z beach: It would take a fraction of the time to implement compared to using a relational database, so in the worst case, you will know why it didn't work with little effort.
2016-07-03T14:21:23Z schjetne: If I switch from Elasticsearch to Montezuma for indexing deployment would be dead simple, everything in a Lisp image.
2016-07-03T14:22:18Z beach: I would say try it out.
2016-07-03T14:22:25Z beach: And I would love to here how it went.
2016-07-03T14:22:50Z schjetne: I'll keep you posted.
2016-07-03T14:23:00Z beach: Thanks.
2016-07-03T14:23:14Z beach: Exactly the kind of stuff I would have done myself.  That is why I am interested.
2016-07-03T14:23:28Z schjetne: I'd better keep it under wraps in case any Oracle (or Franz for that matter) salesmen are listening around the corner
2016-07-03T14:25:36Z beach: Yes, be careful.  Always a good idea.
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2016-07-03T14:42:48Z shka_: do we have reasonable common qt tutorial anywhere?
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2016-07-03T15:27:07Z Xach_: So cool
2016-07-03T15:27:40Z fe[nl]ix: Xach_: what ?
2016-07-03T15:27:53Z Xach_: The summer of hacking!
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2016-07-03T15:28:35Z schjetne: Indeed, only I've hacked mostly grass and weeds this summer
2016-07-03T15:28:45Z schjetne: And dirt
2016-07-03T15:29:33Z Xach_: fe[nl]ix: do you have any control over https://github.com/archimag/restas/issues/41#issuecomment-229744570
2016-07-03T15:29:36Z Xach_: err
2016-07-03T15:29:51Z Xach_: fe[nl]ix: https://common-lisp.net/project/fiveam/files/fiveam-latest.tar.gz ? If so, should it be updated?
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2016-07-03T15:31:55Z dim: schjetne: for me it's not the amount of data but the need for transactions (concurrent edits of it) that drives the choice towards a relational database (my choice is PostgreSQL) ; or the advantage of having a proper data structure easy to discover/introspect and a powerful query language (SQL is awesome to have)
2016-07-03T15:32:31Z fe[nl]ix: Xach_: I would prefer if you switched to github releases
2016-07-03T15:32:42Z dim: if you have (mostly)static data without any concurrent updating and easy to hard-code queries, then it might be so much easier to handle it all in memory as Lisp data structures with a proper API on top of it
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2016-07-03T15:34:06Z schjetne: Yes, that's pretty much the case in my application.
2016-07-03T15:34:24Z schjetne: First and foremost I need speed while traversing graphs
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2016-07-03T15:40:16Z Xach_: fe[nl]ix: ok, I can easily do that.
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2016-07-03T15:54:33Z John[Lisbeth]: why does (cons 'A 'B) => (A . B) and not (A B)?
2016-07-03T15:56:06Z Bike: because (a b) is short for (a . (b . nil)), i.e. the product of (cons 'a (cons 'b nil))
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2016-07-03T16:01:53Z fe[nl]ix: Xach_: thanks
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2016-07-03T17:43:09Z beach: Bike: Am I the only one who finds the silence of John[Lisbeth] after being helped as disturbing?  Not a single "thanks", "I see", "can you explain some more", or even "I'll contemplate what you said later when I have time".  Just silence.
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2016-07-03T17:50:11Z Bike: i'm pretty desensitized. on irc i run into a lot of people who will start a conversation and then just leave in the middle of it, and it's weird, but there's not much i can do
2016-07-03T17:50:57Z beach: I see.  Well, leaving in the middle of a conversation can happen.  But in this case it is not only systematic, it is also immediately after having asked a question.
2016-07-03T17:52:52Z beach: But sure, not much to do about it.
2016-07-03T17:54:08Z phadthai: ms deskhelp irc-relay bot? :)
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2016-07-03T17:55:16Z phadthai: s/deskhelp/helpdesk/
2016-07-03T17:57:43Z beach: phadthai: Not sure what you mean, but this kind of behavior suggests that the person somehow thinks that people are paid to help, or otherwise obliged to do it, maybe as community service or something.  If that were the case, then sure, no reason to thank them or otherwise acknowledge their assistance.
2016-07-03T17:57:54Z phadthai: but jokes aside, I also see that type of asking-leaving on other tech channels
2016-07-03T17:58:11Z phadthai: beach: that's possible, it's like a type of "leeching"
2016-07-03T17:58:13Z beach: I am willing to believe that #lisp is not unique.
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2016-07-03T18:48:05Z pjb: beach: some people don't know yet irc etiquette.  What's unfortunate, is that some never learn it.
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2016-07-03T18:48:33Z Cthulhux: "irc etiquette"
2016-07-03T18:48:53Z Cthulhux: as if you should behave differently on irc than on e-mail, usenet and stupid web forums
2016-07-03T18:49:06Z pjb: Also, we can always assume communication problems: some use irc clients in browsers, and there it's easy to close a tab, like a web tab.
2016-07-03T18:49:06Z Cthulhux: rule no. 1: don't be an annoying dick.
2016-07-03T18:49:09Z Cthulhux: rule no. 2: -
2016-07-03T18:49:10Z Cthulhux: :-)
2016-07-03T18:49:31Z pjb: Cthulhux: granted; what I meant was that there was variants for the various media.
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2016-07-03T18:50:10Z Cthulhux: yep, i've read some "web forum etiquettes" over the last few years. three screen pages which can be summarized as "don't be an annoying dick"
2016-07-03T18:50:21Z Cthulhux: the web seems to invite to talk too much.
2016-07-03T18:50:39Z pjb: But the tools they use is also a big factor.  At work, they expect you to set your answers in email in a different color!  This is because they're using Microsoft MUA that prevents the usual '> '* quotation prefix and that doesn't set the various levels of answer in different colors automatically.
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2016-07-03T18:51:04Z Cthulhux: e-mail is a text medium. colors don't belong there.
2016-07-03T18:51:29Z pjb: Indeed. But not when you use deficient software like Microsoft's.
2016-07-03T18:52:29Z Cthulhux: i have to use outlook at work. the problem is that all of my colleagues use outlook too, and so do all of our customers
2016-07-03T18:52:37Z Cthulhux: so there is no excuse not to write HTML mail :(
2016-07-03T18:52:52Z Cthulhux: the web has spoiled so many things.
2016-07-03T18:56:39Z pjb: yep.
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2016-07-03T20:46:58Z p_l: fun fact: about the only thing that can be laid mostly at Outlook's feet is top-posting. Non-text encoding... not really, except maybe for those who ended up sending word-formatted email due to abuse of OLE mechanism
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2016-07-03T21:10:00Z Lord_Nightmare: i read somewhere that there are certain fairly stressful lisp programs which cause crashes on one of CMUCL, SBCL and not the other; have people done some deep investigation into this to figure out what the cause is?
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2016-07-03T21:38:47Z phoe_krk: Lord_Nightmare: it's impossible to generalize
2016-07-03T21:39:05Z phoe_krk: each of them is a case study on its own.
2016-07-03T21:39:48Z phoe_krk: but also it's hard for me to look any information on my own without the information which programs were these. Do you have a link nearby?
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2016-07-03T22:04:47Z Lord_Nightmare: phoe_krk: checking... having trouble finding the message i saw before
2016-07-03T22:05:44Z |3b| thinks it shouldn't take "deep investigation" to determine SBCL and CMUCL have diverged since the fork, in everything from compiler to libs to defaults
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2016-07-03T22:07:08Z |3b|: might even be more rare to find bugs old enough to be in the shared code :)
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2016-07-03T22:26:14Z Lord_Nightmare: I'm aware they diverged, its just older code like maxima which predates the fork shouldn't fail on one and work on the other
2016-07-03T22:33:45Z PuercoPop: why it shouldn't? AFAIK maxima is not written in portable CL
2016-07-03T22:34:41Z PuercoPop: (for this meaning of portable http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#portable)
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2016-07-03T23:20:58Z fe[nl]ix: PuercoPop: it works on my laptop, so it's portable
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2016-07-03T23:35:08Z Fare: Does it work on a Compaq Portable?
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2016-07-03T23:52:37Z |3b|: Lord_Nightmare: old code is still compiled by the (diverged) compiler and uses the (diverged) libs, GC, etc in the runtime, so it might hit any new bugs in the code, or old bugs exposed by unrelated fixes, or run into problems caused by different defaults (like GC tuning or heap size or whatever)
2016-07-03T23:53:33Z |3b|: or it could have bugs that are only visible due to improvements in one or the other compiler/libs/etc
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2016-07-04T02:11:47Z John[Lisbeth]: It's hard to quantify what would make a language "better" in my personal opinion. I know that my search for the optimum language lead me to lisp, but it is hard for me to think back and trace the decisions I made slowly along the way the last 3 years that lead to it.
2016-07-04T02:12:44Z John[Lisbeth]: I started with C++, and I wanted something different, and I eventually became interested in shell scripting because shell commands where what I was commonly being asked to use to interface with my computer on Linux, so I naturally thought of Bash as my computer's language.
2016-07-04T02:13:19Z John[Lisbeth]: Studying bash lead me to studying the Unix philosophy of modularity, which lead me to want to start programming by piping commands and files together in a long chain to achieve big tasks.
2016-07-04T02:13:39Z John[Lisbeth]: The inability to do this well in bash lead me to haskell. In haskell I eventually wanted to use parens for everything and that lead me to lisp.
2016-07-04T02:16:00Z John[Lisbeth]: And now I think that parentheses are the greatest invention of mankind. I can't express why though.
2016-07-04T02:19:47Z John[Lisbeth]: The best way I can explain it is I wanted a language that worked more like how algebra worked in school. There were closures in other languages which resembled parentheses but they did not behave like parentheses in algebra because they didn't follow PEMDAS. Lisp is very close to PEMDAS but different for obvious reasons.
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2016-07-04T02:24:21Z John[Lisbeth]: It's not necessarily advantagous for lisp to be like algebra where I can do something like (+ 2 (- 2 3 4 (/ 1 2))). It's just the way I like to think.
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2016-07-04T02:36:01Z PuercoPop: fe[nl]ix: I was referring to the expectation that if some code works on an old version CMUCL it should work on a new version of SBCL. Not on Maxima itself
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2016-07-04T03:18:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-04T03:19:17Z John[Lisbeth]: Just as morning is relative to your geographic location, the viability of lisp is relative to your perspective.
2016-07-04T03:22:17Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach
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2016-07-04T03:29:38Z burlap: "The variable &OPTIONAL is unbound." - what does this error mean?
2016-07-04T03:30:39Z beach: burlap: It sounds like your Common Lisp system thought that a lambda list was a function call.
2016-07-04T03:30:54Z beach: burlap: It could happen if you misspell DEFUN or something like that.
2016-07-04T03:31:06Z beach: Do you have some more context?
2016-07-04T03:31:52Z burlap: That was it - I misspelled defun >_<
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2016-07-04T03:45:59Z loke: hello Lisp!
2016-07-04T03:46:08Z beach: Hi loke!
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2016-07-04T03:47:08Z loke: Hello beach!
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2016-07-04T03:57:19Z papachan: morning
2016-07-04T03:59:19Z beach: Hello papachan!
2016-07-04T03:59:58Z emaczen: I got a stack overflow condition -- how do I get to the beginning of the backtrace or see how large the stack is?
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2016-07-04T04:03:19Z pierpa: emaczen: that depends a lot on your environment. If this happened to me, for example, I could issue a :b command and then scroll back
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2016-07-04T04:04:25Z emaczen: I'm using CCL and Slime
2016-07-04T04:04:34Z pierpa: but most probably you are using a different CL from me, probably on a different OS, and maybe you're using a different editor.
2016-07-04T04:04:45Z pierpa: ok, CCL matches :)
2016-07-04T04:04:56Z pierpa: then use :b
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2016-07-04T04:05:39Z emaczen: pierpa: I don't think I can do that with SLIME
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2016-07-04T04:06:08Z pierpa: I don't use slime so can't help then.
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2016-07-04T04:06:25Z emaczen: pierpa: Are you using ccl-hemlock?
2016-07-04T04:06:30Z pierpa: no
2016-07-04T04:06:44Z pierpa: simple emacs' inferior lisp
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2016-07-04T04:22:46Z emaczen: hah, SBCL doesn't overflow the stack...
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2016-07-04T04:23:37Z beach: Does it go into an infinite loop instead?
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2016-07-04T04:25:08Z emaczen: The backtrace is full of ccl::%%check-keywords ...
2016-07-04T04:25:24Z emaczen: beach: SBCL is working as I expected
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2016-07-04T07:00:18Z piterbig: what's the difference between asdf-install and quicklisp
2016-07-04T07:00:40Z Bike: asdf-install is obsolete. also some other differences, but who remembers them
2016-07-04T07:01:07Z Bike: (asdf is distinct, though. and not obsolete)
2016-07-04T07:02:35Z piterbig: ok,thank you
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2016-07-04T07:07:58Z piterbig: when I want to define another system,I have to use asdf:defsystem
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2016-07-04T07:21:54Z edgar-rft: piterbig: quicklisp has "quickproject" to create asdf skeletons for new projects, see <http://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/>
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2016-07-04T07:30:56Z anquegi: For creating new projects you can also use https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-project, quicklisp internally use asdf, this is not obsolete, the version 3.1.x is the last and the one that you should use
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2016-07-04T07:32:33Z piterbig: @anqueji thank you
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2016-07-04T07:40:59Z anquegi: :-)
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2016-07-04T11:14:56Z pavelpenev: can someone recommend a statistics library?
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2016-07-04T11:35:54Z schjetne: pavelpenev: would Maxima do the trick?
2016-07-04T11:35:56Z schjetne: http://maxima.sourceforge.net/docs/manual/maxima_toc.html#SEC_Contents
2016-07-04T11:36:16Z schjetne: You can use it as a library, not just as an interactive system
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2016-07-04T11:38:37Z pavelpenev: schjetne: i think it might, thanks.
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2016-07-04T12:52:29Z lllshamanlll: what are key differences between methods overloading and multimethods? except resolution time(i.e. compile time vs runtime)
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2016-07-04T12:53:26Z dim: do you mean single dispatch vs multiple dispatch?
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2016-07-04T13:00:19Z lllshamanlll: i guess no, using overloading in languages like c++ http://ideone.com/SWAm2L it's perfectly valid & is based on multiple arguments of the function, my question is why one should use multimethods instead of overloading?
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2016-07-04T13:09:48Z dim: lllshamanlll: IIUC because of multiple dispatch
2016-07-04T13:10:14Z dim: see http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html for starters
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2016-07-04T13:13:46Z lllshamanlll: thx, will take a look
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2016-07-04T13:22:53Z rumbler31: minion
2016-07-04T13:22:55Z rumbler31: minion: help
2016-07-04T13:22:56Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
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2016-07-04T13:53:25Z phoe_krk: Erlang is a really satisfying language.
2016-07-04T13:55:10Z sjl: just to confirm my suspicions, if I have an array of element-type t, when I store a fixnum in it it'll store the fixnum directly in the array, not as a pointer to some other hunk of memory, right?
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2016-07-04T13:56:06Z sjl: SBCL seems to do that, at least according to my ham-fisted test of allocating my entire heap space as an array
2016-07-04T13:56:10Z phoe_krk: sjl: isn't it implementation-dependent?
2016-07-04T13:56:17Z varjag: this is implementation-dependent
2016-07-04T13:56:33Z sjl: yeah that makes sense... I really only care about SBCL and maybe CCL here
2016-07-04T13:56:46Z phoe_krk: sjl: ask the implementation makers.
2016-07-04T13:56:52Z sjl: fair enough
2016-07-04T13:57:14Z varjag: sbcl could be smart enough to infer the actual type and unbox
2016-07-04T13:57:51Z fe[nl]ix: sjl: if it's T, it's boxed
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2016-07-04T13:59:01Z phoe_krk: fe[nl]ix: does it *have* to be boxed though?
2016-07-04T13:59:05Z sjl: fe[nl]ix: I know the non-fixnum elements will be boxed, but will the fixnums?
2016-07-04T13:59:12Z phoe_krk: some implementations mark this utilizing some bits on 64-bit systems.
2016-07-04T13:59:48Z varjag: t is the most general type, if a compiler can infer the actual subtype it can well use that
2016-07-04T14:00:11Z sjl: I'm writing a Prolog VM and using a bigass array for the Prolog heap.  Most elements in it will be fixnum addresses of other things in the heap, but it would be nice if I could make some of them pointers to actual Lisp objects in memory
2016-07-04T14:00:29Z rumbler31: what is the use of specifying element-type to be t, that doesn't say much of anything, does it?
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2016-07-04T14:01:15Z sjl: without boxing all those addresses and destroying cache locality
2016-07-04T14:02:19Z sjl: rumbler31: not really... I'd probably say :element-type '(or fixnum t) just for documentation purposes
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2016-07-04T14:02:45Z sjl: to mean "this array contains fixnum addresses, but can also contain pointers to arbitrary Lisp objects"
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2016-07-04T14:03:08Z rumbler31: I see what you're trying to do
2016-07-04T14:03:21Z varjag: sjl: make an array of mixed fixnums and non-numeric entries
2016-07-04T14:03:25Z jackdaniel: sjl: I think that it will store fixnum as an immediate type, but you'll be better served by the actual implementation developers
2016-07-04T14:03:30Z varjag: i think you'll see the fixnums being boxed
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2016-07-04T14:03:49Z sjl: varjag: how can I "see" the actual bytes of the array in memory in e.g. SBCL
2016-07-04T14:04:00Z sjl: if I could see the damn bytes that would clear things up immediately
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2016-07-04T14:05:13Z sjl: I tried allocating an array with element-type fixnum with just enough elements to fill my heap image, then gc'ing it and allocating the same size array of type t
2016-07-04T14:05:24Z sjl: and filling that with random integers
2016-07-04T14:05:29Z sjl: and it didn't exhaust the heap
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2016-07-04T14:11:49Z varjag: sjl: make some simple test functions with different type declarations, and see how they do access in disassembly?
2016-07-04T14:12:03Z varjag: but generally you can't rely on this
2016-07-04T14:13:18Z sjl: varjag: I'm fine with it being implementation-specific -- I really only care about making SBCL and maybe CCL fast
2016-07-04T14:13:37Z sjl: if other implementations end up boxing things that's fine.  it'll still *work*, it'll just be slower
2016-07-04T14:14:16Z varjag: ..both on x86 and amd64? :p
2016-07-04T14:16:21Z phoe_krk: sjl: I think this question is better asked on #sbcl and #ccl. This is implementation specific, so I guess it would be more fruitful to discuss it in the implementations' channels.
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2016-07-04T14:16:44Z varjag: does your prolog vm really have bottleneck in memory access?
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2016-07-04T14:17:51Z sjl: phoe_krk: I'm asking in #sbcl now, yeah
2016-07-04T14:18:47Z sjl: varjag: I'm implementing the Warren Abstract Machine so a LOT of what it does during runtime is "pointer" chasing around this array
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2016-07-04T14:23:16Z varjag: sjl: i'm just surprized it would favor cache locality, from admittedly little i remember of prolog
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2016-07-04T14:24:23Z varjag: prolog sounds like one of the least pipelining friendly languages out there
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2016-07-04T14:32:13Z Zhivago: Why would you say that about prolog?
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2016-07-04T14:41:56Z varjag: Zhivago: assuming a large amount of terms, i'm not seeing an obvious way to store them localized, for arbitrary queries
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2016-07-04T14:44:19Z sjl: varjag: (member (some (big ass functor) with a (lot of) elements) [...some list with that target thing at the end...])
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2016-07-04T14:45:10Z sjl: sprinkle some REFs in there
2016-07-04T14:45:28Z sjl: and it'd be nice if you can load the entire bigass thing with one memory request
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2016-07-04T14:46:51Z sjl: (the one in the list I mean, not the first one -- the first one will always be in cache)
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2016-07-04T15:24:26Z rumbler31: !seen sjl
2016-07-04T15:24:37Z sjl is still here
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2016-07-04T16:30:22Z phoe_krk: ...
2016-07-04T16:30:47Z phoe_krk: I just found a bug in Slime.
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2016-07-04T16:31:06Z phoe_krk: 1) Go into REPL, type (read) and hit Enter.
2016-07-04T16:31:11Z phoe_krk: 2) Type # and hit Tab.
2016-07-04T16:31:33Z phoe_krk: 3) Hangs up for me on emacs 24.5.1 on debian sid x64.
2016-07-04T16:31:39Z phoe_krk: Could anyone check?
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2016-07-04T16:37:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: phoe_krk: Not a problem for me on 24.5.1 emacs on windows 8 x64, using sbcl
2016-07-04T16:39:19Z phoe_krk: Oh right, it's emacs lucid if it changes anything.
2016-07-04T16:39:39Z phoe_krk: Petit_Dejeuner: thanks.
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2016-07-04T16:42:05Z ym: Yep, hangs for me too.
2016-07-04T16:42:29Z phoe_krk: ym: give me some details about your OS/emacs
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2016-07-04T16:49:44Z ym: phoe_krk, http://paste.lisp.org/+6URX
2016-07-04T16:50:23Z rumbler31: hey me too
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2016-07-04T16:52:07Z Grue``: does not hang up for me
2016-07-04T16:52:14Z phoe_krk: rumbler31: details pls
2016-07-04T16:52:35Z rumbler31: phoe_krk: will annotate the above paste
2016-07-04T16:52:50Z Grue``: however I had a similar bug before (hanging when pressing TAB during read), and got it fixed after reporting on github
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2016-07-04T16:53:51Z Grue``: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/17
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2016-07-04T16:56:03Z rumbler31: phoe_krk: submitted
2016-07-04T16:56:25Z phoe_krk: rumbler31: what's submitted?
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2016-07-04T16:56:45Z phoe_krk: I can't see any annotation
2016-07-04T16:57:30Z rumbler31: one moment
2016-07-04T16:57:53Z rumbler31: ok
2016-07-04T16:58:26Z phoe_krk: rumbler31: your OS?
2016-07-04T16:58:41Z rumbler31: osx 10.11.5
2016-07-04T16:58:55Z rumbler31: the github issue posted above seems to be tracking this
2016-07-04T16:59:13Z rumbler31: *nm i didn't read the date
2016-07-04T17:00:06Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/329
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2016-07-04T17:01:58Z rumbler31: ym: how did you get that ql-dist:system swank line in your paste?
2016-07-04T17:03:24Z ym: (ql:system-list) C-r slime
2016-07-04T17:03:39Z ym: List may be huge though.
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2016-07-04T17:05:31Z rumbler31: same slime version
2016-07-04T17:06:49Z Xach_: ym: (ql:system-apropos "slime") also works.
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2016-07-04T17:07:14Z rumbler31: ty
2016-07-04T17:07:31Z ym: Yes. And there is local-projects-searcher, but I don't get what name should I feed it.
2016-07-04T17:10:11Z rumbler31: Xach_: running update-all-dists lands me in the debugger with "/quicklisp/tmp/distinfo-update/" is not a directory"
2016-07-04T17:10:29Z Xach_: ym: you should not use it directly.
2016-07-04T17:10:32Z rumbler31: while attempting to delete this directory
2016-07-04T17:10:42Z Xach_: rumbler31: odd. well, you can safely rm -rf ~/quicklisp/tmp/
2016-07-04T17:11:53Z rumbler31: that got past it, ty
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2016-07-04T18:31:44Z burlaps: if I want to sort a list of lists based on the # in position 1 of the sublists (i.e ((a 4), (b 1), (c 2)) -> ((a 4), (c 2), (b 1))), how would I go about doing that?
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2016-07-04T18:37:33Z phoe_krk: Hmm.
2016-07-04T18:37:48Z phoe_krk: Try SORT with :key #'second
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2016-07-04T18:49:21Z burlaps: phoe_krk: resulted in an error ( invalid number of arguments: 2) at (SECOND (B 1) #<unknown>) [tl,external]
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2016-07-04T18:49:39Z Bike: are you sure you did :key and not :test?
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2016-07-04T18:50:50Z burlaps: The actual list I used it on was ((a 4) (b 1) (c 2) (d 2))
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2016-07-04T18:54:59Z burlaps: Bike: ah got it to work now, thanks
2016-07-04T18:55:07Z Bike: np
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2016-07-04T19:12:33Z phoe_krk: What is the short way to say: object A is an instance of a class which has class B as its superclass?
2016-07-04T19:13:07Z phoe_krk: Would "object A is of type B" suffice here?
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2016-07-04T19:18:07Z Bike: "generalized instance", i think
2016-07-04T19:18:29Z rumbler31: Xach_:  If i'm working with a system obtained via quicklisp that I've made changes to, and I want to carry those changes over to a new dist that might have the original installed via quicklisp, is the right approach to place the modified version in local-projects (and additionally delete the original version in the new dist?)
2016-07-04T19:18:34Z Bike: 's in the glossary
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2016-07-04T19:21:27Z phoe_krk: This sends the provided message, which is a generalized instance of the {\btt MESSAGE} class, to the provided recipient, which is a generalized instance of the {\btt CHATTER} class.
2016-07-04T19:21:30Z phoe_krk: This is longggggg.
2016-07-04T19:21:41Z phoe_krk: But oh well. I guess it's documentation.
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2016-07-04T19:24:16Z Bike: you could use a clhsy format. "message--a {\btt MESSAGE}. recipient--a {\btt CHATTER}. Sends the message to the recipient."
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2016-07-04T19:25:44Z Bike: or jsut say that as a sentence. "This sends the message (a MESSAGE) to the recipient (a CHATTER)."
2016-07-04T19:25:44Z phoe_krk: Yes - I guess I could.
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2016-07-04T19:28:02Z phoe_krk: Oh goodness.
2016-07-04T19:28:04Z phoe_krk: That's very good.
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2016-07-04T19:48:36Z pjb: phoe_krk: depends if you expect the object not to be of class B (as your formulation intends it).
2016-07-04T19:48:59Z pjb: phoe_krk: (and (typep o 'b) (not (eq (class-of o) (find-class 'b))))
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2016-07-04T19:55:44Z phoe_krk: pjb: right.
2016-07-04T19:56:59Z pjb: phoe_krk: notice that most lisp programs actually practice duck-typing, so you should not have to perform this test.
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2016-07-04T19:58:52Z phoe_krk: Is it okay if I make an empty DEFCLASS while declaring my internal protocol, and later DEFCLASS again when I do the implementation?
2016-07-04T19:59:04Z phoe_krk: By empty, I mean (defclass foo () ())
2016-07-04T19:59:33Z pjb: in CL you would define a protocol as a bunch of defgeneric.
2016-07-04T20:00:11Z pjb: Only if you wanted to provide some default implementation for some subgraph of the class hierarchy, you would define a class, and specialize your generic function on that class.
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2016-07-04T20:00:33Z pjb: Of course, you can also do it just to monkey the OO systems of other languages.
2016-07-04T20:00:54Z pjb: (I do that sometimes, but it's not really beautiful CL OO style).
2016-07-04T20:01:17Z phoe_krk: pjb: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/11-1.html#_564
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2016-07-04T20:01:23Z phoe_krk: There are some protocol classes in there.
2016-07-04T20:01:29Z phoe_krk: Which is what I want to do.
2016-07-04T20:02:05Z pjb: Granted.  Notably, if you design your protocol classes as mixins, then you can do that without any problem downstream.
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2016-07-04T20:03:08Z knobo1: Some lisp projects could need a new maintainer.
2016-07-04T20:03:09Z phoe_krk: By mixins, you mean classes that are not meant to be instantiated, have no slots and are only used as superclasses?
2016-07-04T20:03:16Z phoe_krk: knobo1: elaborate
2016-07-04T20:03:44Z knobo1: When there are two year old pull requests on github, and the maintainer has not been active on github for one year
2016-07-04T20:03:51Z knobo1: like log4cl
2016-07-04T20:03:52Z pjb: well, in CL, mixins can easily have slots. Just take care to avoid collision in slot names.
2016-07-04T20:05:10Z pjb: knobo1: it may mean not that he's disinterested, but rather that he's working at a java job to bring bread to the table.  It's quite possible he'll resume working on CL stuff once he's accumulated a war treasure.
2016-07-04T20:05:19Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-07-04T20:05:22Z pjb: Or perhaps indeed he lost interest.
2016-07-04T20:05:41Z phoe_krk: pjb: yes, but aside from the slots - do you mean this?
2016-07-04T20:05:55Z pjb: phoe_krk: Yes, mostly.
2016-07-04T20:06:27Z knobo1: pjb: 0 contributions in the last year
2016-07-04T20:06:47Z pjb: knobo1: as I said, it may just mean he's busy working at a java shop.
2016-07-04T20:06:53Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: mixins as a concept are orthogonal 'behavioural' units that one combines into an object so that is gains that trait. In the initial implementation of mixins they were not classes, but in most langs you just define classes with methods and inherit to combine
2016-07-04T20:07:05Z knobo1: pjb: right.
2016-07-04T20:07:33Z pjb: You know, it's tyring doing java 9-5.  When you come home, at first you may try to do some lisping to wash you brain, but after a couple of months it's hard to maintain the routine.
2016-07-04T20:08:24Z knobo1: pjb: and then some also get kids.
2016-07-04T20:08:46Z pjb: Yep :-)
2016-07-04T20:09:15Z pjb: Who hopefully will become new lispers in ten years. :-)
2016-07-04T20:09:22Z knobo1: pjb: but what to do with maintainting libraries while you guess that they will be back in 18 years when the kids grow up?
2016-07-04T20:09:41Z pjb: git clone, and maintain it yourself.
2016-07-04T20:09:59Z pjb: I mean github fork.
2016-07-04T20:10:30Z pjb: Then you can always send some pull requests from time to time, or take pull requests from other contributors.
2016-07-04T20:11:07Z jason_m: How is the type-specifier in a slot definition used/enforced?  Is it?  (I just made a class and violated the type-specifier and everything seems ok)
2016-07-04T20:11:11Z pjb: and you may even convince Xach to replace his git repo with yours eventually :-)
2016-07-04T20:11:24Z pjb: jason_m: yes, some implementations do enforce it.
2016-07-04T20:11:45Z pjb: They usually check when you set the slot.
2016-07-04T20:12:01Z jason_m: pjb: Including a call to make-instance?
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2016-07-04T20:12:55Z jason_m: my sbcl doesn't seem to enforce it
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2016-07-04T20:14:41Z Grue`: might depend on safety/debug settings?
2016-07-04T20:16:03Z jason_m: I was playing with it just yesterday and pondering similar questions about class hierarchies, abstract classes etc.  I wanted to specify unify a couple of my classes under a common base type.  Say I had classes Bar and Baz, and the slot I was working with could be either of those types.  I created a (empty) base class Foo, and used that for the slot type
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2016-07-04T20:17:19Z jason_m: there is no common behavior, each of Bar and Baz implement a given protocol, but with a common base class, i can unify them under one type
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2016-07-04T20:18:24Z jason_m: Maybe I'm missing a better way to design it, but I thought it was relevant to the discussio
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2016-07-04T20:19:17Z pjb2: jason_m: yes
2016-07-04T20:20:07Z PuercoPop: jason_m: afaik SBCL doesn't enforce it ever, if you want to, you may find quid-pro-quo useful
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2016-07-04T20:25:00Z jason_m: PuercoPop: Thanks for the suggestion, I'll take a look at it.
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2016-07-04T20:27:43Z Polyphony: So I run something like "(ql:quickload :cl-who)", what else do I have to do in order to use the symbols available in that library?  I've been looking for a while and all of the documentation I've seen is just assuming "(some-library-function)" doesn't throw an error and is loaded properly
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2016-07-04T20:30:24Z Polyphony: It would be ideal to simply "quickload" and go, if that is at all possible
2016-07-04T20:30:55Z Grue`: you need to (use-package :cl-who) or add (:use :cl-who) to your defpackage
2016-07-04T20:31:49Z Grue`: this is not done by default because the symbols from cl-who might clash with your own symbols. also one quicklisp system might have several packages in it
2016-07-04T20:32:32Z rumbler31: mmm... using parenscript, there's this neat thing that every time I call ps-to-stream, some of the variables in a function get renamed to their original name with an incrementing number appended each time...
2016-07-04T20:32:33Z jason_m: Polyphony: To add to that, quickload indeed loads the library.  but the symbols exist in their own namespace (package).  You can "use" a package to make all of its exported symbols available in your current package as Grue` says
2016-07-04T20:33:12Z rumbler31: while i'm sure each version of the generated code will be internally consistent, i find it surprising and wish it would stop
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2016-07-04T20:36:40Z rumbler31: ok, turns out its not internally consistent
2016-07-04T20:37:10Z Polyphony: thanks for the information, all I could seem to find was how to define my own asdf systems or how to write/use extremely simple packages that didn't describe how quicklisp was supposed to help.
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2016-07-04T20:41:50Z Grue`: it helps download dependencies. otherwise you can just do (asdf:load-system :blah)
2016-07-04T20:42:27Z scymtym: jason_m: (proclaim '(optimize (safety 3))) (defclass foo () ((bar :initarg :bar :type string))) (make-instance 'foo :bar 1) => type-error
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2016-07-04T20:44:30Z jason_m: scymtym: ah hah!  same result here
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2016-07-04T20:46:39Z rumbler31: ccl64 osx no error here
2016-07-04T20:47:33Z jason_m: sbcl linux here
2016-07-04T20:48:00Z jason_m: what is the default safety level?  or perhaps more importantly, can i query the safety level?
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2016-07-04T20:49:03Z scymtym: jason_m: i think everything is 1 by default. for describing, use (sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy)
2016-07-04T20:49:07Z rumbler31: although i think ccl ignores proclaims and needs declares in the function body, or the opposite, I forget
2016-07-04T20:49:19Z rumbler31: or maybe thats only for parameter type declarations
2016-07-04T20:50:54Z jason_m: thanks scymtym
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2016-07-04T20:53:38Z scymtym: jason_m: np. also check out (documentation 'sb-c::check-tag-existence 'optimize) for descriptions of the fine grained quantities
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2016-07-04T20:54:21Z scymtym: well s/find grained/dependent/,s/quantities/qualities/
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2016-07-04T20:55:15Z burlaps: is there a way to break out of a loop?
2016-07-04T20:55:40Z rumbler31: you mean get control of a runaway loop?
2016-07-04T20:55:51Z jason_m: I think the lesson here is that sbcl will complain if i turn safety all the way up, and it is probably a good idea to do so during development/testing if i want to catch any type mistakes
2016-07-04T20:56:21Z rumbler31: oh i see the problem
2016-07-04T20:56:27Z burlaps: i.e. (loop for i in list do (if (eq i something) (break out of loop) ))
2016-07-04T20:56:54Z jason_m: and because who knows what another user or implementation will do...  if i put type specifiers in slot definitions, i should make sure everything is consistent with them
2016-07-04T20:57:01Z rumbler31: burlaps: try return
2016-07-04T20:57:09Z rumbler31: or return-from
2016-07-04T20:59:54Z rumbler31: ccl doesn't seem to care about this
2016-07-04T20:59:57Z burlaps: would return also not end the execution of the function that loop is in though?
2016-07-04T21:00:31Z rumbler31: burlaps: probably.  to be sure use a tag and return to that.  or consider another way to write what you want
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2016-07-04T21:02:36Z jason_m: burlaps: This is a good loop reference.  For return, search for the section titles "Unconditional Execution" http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
2016-07-04T21:07:37Z rumbler31: if im not in the debugger, can I inspect an object whose printable representation isn't readable?  like the result of a call to make-instance
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2016-07-04T21:08:15Z rumbler31: i guess I can use *
2016-07-04T21:08:41Z jason_m: rumbler31: yeah, from the repl you can (inspect *).  With slime, you can also right-click->inspect
2016-07-04T21:11:04Z rumbler31: so jason_m I see that the debugger shows me that the slot has a value in its :type property of :string, but initializing it or setf-ing from an accessor with a value that isn't the same type doesn't produce an error in ccl
2016-07-04T21:11:15Z rumbler31: unless i've somehow messed up my defclass and proclaim form
2016-07-04T21:13:06Z jason_m: rumbler31: i'm guessing that there is variation across compilers.  so we know sbcl will enforce it with high safety, and it sounds like ccl never will
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2016-07-04T21:15:34Z rumbler31: maybe this will get brought up tomorrow at the ccl office hours
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2016-07-04T21:16:11Z rumbler31: although I just learned about a package that will wrap type enforcement around your defun and other forms
2016-07-04T21:16:17Z rumbler31: and if I can remember itttt
2016-07-04T21:16:22Z jason_m: rumbler31: Actually, ccl64 on linux I was able to produce the type error
2016-07-04T21:16:47Z rumbler31: maybe i messed up my form then
2016-07-04T21:16:51Z jason_m:  (make-instance 'foo :bar 12)
2016-07-04T21:16:51Z jason_m: > Error: The value 12, derived from the initarg :BAR, can not be used to set the value of the slot BAR in #<FOO #x349A92DE12D>, because it is not of type BASE-STRING.
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2016-07-04T21:17:51Z rumbler31: hmmmmmmm
2016-07-04T21:17:54Z rumbler31: https://bitbucket.org/eeeickythump/defstar/
2016-07-04T21:17:59Z rumbler31: let me try it again
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2016-07-04T21:23:09Z jason_m: ccl produces the error for me even under the default safety settings
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2016-07-04T21:23:30Z jason_m: maybe we're looking at a variation in the same compiler across different platforms
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2016-07-04T21:26:44Z jason_m: I'm stepping away for a couple hours
2016-07-04T21:32:49Z burlaps: "Comma not inside a backquote." - what does this error mean?
2016-07-04T21:34:36Z Bike: syntax error. you have a comma somewhere you shouldn't.
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2016-07-04T21:35:47Z Bike: which is anywhere except a string, an escaped symbol, or in a backquoted expression. maybe some other places, dunno
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2016-07-04T21:36:58Z rumbler31: this happens to me if i suddenly forget that I don't need to delimit function arguments with commas
2016-07-04T21:37:15Z _death: Bike: could also be #\, :)
2016-07-04T21:37:27Z Bike: remembering things is hard
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2016-07-04T21:37:52Z rumbler31: yes, especially when i'm switching between languages or trying to rewrite something from an example
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2016-07-04T21:43:04Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319836 does not produce error
2016-07-04T21:47:17Z sharkteeth: does anyone here use sublime? i'm trying to get better syntax highlighting setup and am not super familiar with it. the default lisp highlighting seems to ignore predicates like evenp/oddp, equal, etc which would be handy to have highlighted.
2016-07-04T21:47:51Z Grue`: emacs doesn't highlight them either
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2016-07-04T21:48:28Z sharkteeth: is it not common for editors to highlight stuff like that? new to lisp
2016-07-04T21:48:44Z sharkteeth: coming from a C/C++ background where IDE's highlight everything
2016-07-04T21:49:19Z Grue`: well, those are just regular functions. other languages I worked with don't highlight library functions either
2016-07-04T21:49:44Z Bike: it highlights a lot of things, but not predicates. i'm not immediately sure what the advantage would be, personally, but you could probably rig something up for the built-ins at least
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2016-07-04T21:50:43Z sharkteeth: in lisp are function/macros/whatever (still learning verbiage) like dolist, push, and evenp treated like library functions and not part of the language?
2016-07-04T21:50:46Z sharkteeth: idk if that makes any sense
2016-07-04T21:51:01Z Bike: dolist and push are macros. evenp is a function.
2016-07-04T21:51:29Z Bike: they're part of the standard library. they're not syntax like C "==" or anything. you can define your own functions/etc with those names using the package system.
2016-07-04T21:51:32Z Grue`: library is part of the language
2016-07-04T21:51:38Z Grue`: *standard library
2016-07-04T21:52:02Z Bike: they're also not "reserved words". lisp doesn't have those.
2016-07-04T21:52:03Z sharkteeth: Bike the advantage for my current setup is instead of just having the "or" in "y-or-n-p" highlighted the whole thing would be...readability for me
2016-07-04T21:52:19Z sharkteeth: ah ok
2016-07-04T21:52:22Z Bike: only the "or" is? that's kind of weird, i would expect the symbol to be highlighted as one thing.
2016-07-04T21:52:41Z sharkteeth: yeah..same thing with ":if-exists" when opening a filestream. just the "if" is highlighted
2016-07-04T21:52:49Z Grue`: sounds like a bug in highlighter
2016-07-04T21:52:54Z Bike: yeah.
2016-07-04T21:53:07Z sharkteeth: alright i'll dig around and try and find something, thanks
2016-07-04T21:53:22Z sharkteeth: didn't know if it was an editor issue or a language thing
2016-07-04T21:53:22Z Grue`: it probably things that a-b is "a minus b"
2016-07-04T21:53:23Z Bike: anything for lisp should at least know that "-" is part of a symbol name, not a lexeme itself.
2016-07-04T21:54:02Z sharkteeth: you would think. i might have my editor preferences messed up somewhere
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2016-07-04T21:58:43Z rumbler31: minion: memo for jason_m: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319836 does not produce error
2016-07-04T21:58:43Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jason_m when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-07-04T22:01:05Z rumbler31: anyone know about parenscript and lexical variables that seem to get an incremented number appended to them after every call to ps
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2016-07-04T22:03:32Z Bike: gensyms?
2016-07-04T22:03:51Z rumbler31: also annoyingly, references to the changed variable name don't seem to propagate
2016-07-04T22:04:11Z rumbler31: i tried setting the gensym-counter to 0 and rerunning it but that didn't work
2016-07-04T22:04:41Z Bike: you can have two distinct gensyms with the same name
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2016-07-04T22:08:35Z rumbler31: i understand what you're saying, but i'm confused as to how it applies
2016-07-04T22:09:51Z rumbler31: minion: memo for jasom_m: can you paste me the code you're using to produce the error?  I don't seem to be doing it right
2016-07-04T22:09:51Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jasom_m when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-07-04T22:12:58Z rumbler31: minion: memo for jason_m: ok, when the :type is string, not :string, I can reproduce the rror
2016-07-04T22:12:58Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jason_m when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-07-04T22:27:19Z ben_vulpes: can `collect` in `loop` be made to work with multiple return values?
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2016-07-04T22:33:09Z Bike: yeah. what do you want to do?
2016-07-04T22:33:21Z Bike: rumbler31: i could be misunderstanding, i haven't used parenscript much at all.
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2016-07-04T22:39:01Z ben_vulpes: eh, perhaps `multiple-value-list` in the forms i'm collecting would help.
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2016-07-04T22:59:43Z rumbler31: Bike:  so gensym is used to rename the variable names in a let form
2016-07-04T23:01:46Z rumbler31: which while I can't argue isn't necessary, for some reason is giving me problems, either because I don't understand the implications of my choice of approach
2016-07-04T23:02:07Z Bike: can you paste some code or something, because i don't want to draw impossible conclusions
2016-07-04T23:02:37Z rumbler31: or because there's a bug
2016-07-04T23:02:37Z rumbler31: yea one moment
2016-07-04T23:05:30Z rumbler31: sigh
2016-07-04T23:06:36Z rumbler31: let and let* have the same semantics. I needed let* and forgot
2016-07-04T23:06:59Z Bike: that's a weird design choice
2016-07-04T23:07:04Z rumbler31: shhh
2016-07-04T23:07:09Z rumbler31: i mean
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2016-07-04T23:07:20Z rumbler31: let and let* behave the same way in cl as they do in parenscript
2016-07-04T23:07:39Z Bike: that makes more sense?
2016-07-04T23:08:23Z rumbler31: in that variables defined in let can't reference each other, and let* can
2016-07-04T23:09:07Z rumbler31: and that was my problem.  although the variable renaming surprised me.  I figure if there was going to be a conflict it would only then invoke a gensym as opposed to doing it all the time
2016-07-04T23:10:18Z Bike: well, glad it's fixed.
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2016-07-05T00:44:49Z fugue: I'm working on incrementing a list by the element position. I'm having a tough time with the 'counter' incrementing. Here is my attempt: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319839
2016-07-05T00:46:06Z Bike: don't setf variables that don't exist like that, use let
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2016-07-05T00:46:44Z Bike: you misspelled the function as "incr" in itself
2016-07-05T00:47:05Z Bike: and the reason it doesn't work as you expect is that every recursive call resets count to zero before anything else
2016-07-05T00:48:19Z fugue: You suggest using let, to set the initial count and call the recursion in the body of the let?
2016-07-05T00:48:36Z Bike: to bind the variable
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2016-07-05T00:50:47Z Bike: but, if you rewrote the function with proper lexical binding, i'd probably just have it be a parameter anyway
2016-07-05T00:51:07Z fugue: The counter as a param?
2016-07-05T00:51:37Z Bike: yes. (defun inc (list n) (if (null list) list (cons (+ n (car list)) (inc (cdr list) (1+ n)))))
2016-07-05T00:51:51Z Bike: and then call like (inc whatever 0), of course
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2016-07-05T00:52:54Z fugue: I thought of that too, unfortunately this function can only have 1 parameter (a list)
2016-07-05T00:53:36Z Bike: "can only have" as in this is a homework assignment that makes you go through stupid contortions?
2016-07-05T00:53:44Z fugue: Exactly this ^
2016-07-05T00:53:49Z Bike: figurse
2016-07-05T00:54:06Z fugue: You know what's funny, if I were to take the function with the list as a param, and call another function with the list and a counter as a param :)
2016-07-05T00:54:14Z fugue chuckles
2016-07-05T00:54:34Z Bike: how i'd actually write this is (defun inc (list) (let ((count 0)) (mapcar (lambda (element) (+ (incf count) element)) list)))
2016-07-05T00:54:52Z Bike: but i expect you Have To Use Recursion
2016-07-05T00:55:39Z sharkteeth: i imagine this is a common question but what's the practical benefit to let vs. setf for variables w/in a function
2016-07-05T00:55:53Z sharkteeth: scope issues?
2016-07-05T00:55:57Z Bike: they're not comparable. let establishes bindings, setf modifies them.
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2016-07-05T00:56:21Z sharkteeth: fair enough
2016-07-05T00:56:46Z Bike: (setf x 5) is like "x = 5;" in C. you can't write that without declaring x first. or you can, but it's ugly and retro and it assumes x is an int or suchlike.
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2016-07-05T00:57:56Z Bike: sometimes just throwing in a setf like in this function will make the compiler assume it's a dynamic variable, similarly. which you should really declare elsewhere.
2016-07-05T00:58:07Z fugue: Bike: yep, recursion. I have finished the mapcar version
2016-07-05T00:58:34Z sharkteeth: ok that makes sense why i've been able to use setf where let should've been and not had issues yet
2016-07-05T00:58:45Z Bike: i don't know what the fuck your professor wants then. no optional parameters? I guess you can use labels.
2016-07-05T00:58:47Z sharkteeth: very small programs doing nothing fancy
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2016-07-05T00:59:10Z fugue: I wonder if I can declare the counter outside as a symbol?
2016-07-05T00:59:37Z Bike: you can make it a dynamic variable, which is how it works now, but it's a ridiculous way to write it
2016-07-05T00:59:53Z Bike: can you use labels? just use labels.
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2016-07-05T01:01:29Z fugue: Is it possible to initialize something like this to 0 (defconstant sym 'count)
2016-07-05T01:02:03Z Bike: well, it wouldn't be constant, considering you're incrementing it
2016-07-05T01:02:16Z fugue: oh, right.
2016-07-05T01:02:22Z Bike: and again, you're thinking of something like dynamic variables.
2016-07-05T01:02:40Z Bike: the problem with that is there's no way for your function to know when it's being called recursively, so it can never reset the counter.
2016-07-05T01:03:07Z Bike: so, use labels. an auxiliary function that does take multiple parameters. and lament your education.
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2016-07-05T01:03:27Z sharkteeth: couldn't you just loop through the lisp and for each element do increment each element by the loop index?
2016-07-05T01:03:28Z fugue: Seems like that's the best option
2016-07-05T01:03:33Z sharkteeth: *list
2016-07-05T01:03:40Z fugue: sharkteeth: Not recursively...
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2016-07-05T01:03:47Z sharkteeth: oh nevermind
2016-07-05T01:04:33Z Bike: (defun inc (list) (loop for i from 0 for elem in list collect (+ elem i))), another quite sensible method
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2016-07-05T01:08:45Z fugue: (defun inc (x) (inc-r x 0) )
2016-07-05T01:08:49Z fugue: is what he's going to get
2016-07-05T01:09:17Z Bike: sure
2016-07-05T01:09:20Z fugue: heh
2016-07-05T01:09:37Z Bike: labels lets you make inc-r local, which is a bit cleaner, but it's not a big deal
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2016-07-05T01:10:07Z fugue: Yeah I'm probably going to come back to it and tinker with labels.
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2016-07-05T01:13:09Z fugue: Bike: so how are dynamic 'global' variables actually dealth with
2016-07-05T01:14:48Z Bike: the semantics are basically that the dynamic variable's name (symbol) has a "slot" associated with it, where a value can be put. setf on a dynamic variable puts whatever value in the slot. let on a dynamic variable basically sets the slot to whatever value, then sets it back to whatever it was at the end of the let.
2016-07-05T01:14:57Z Bike: the slot is global, so values are preserved across function invocations etc
2016-07-05T01:16:57Z phadthai: you could consider those like stacks, let pushes a new value, which gets popped at the end of that lexical scope
2016-07-05T01:18:25Z phadthai: and every concurrent use may see its own current value (they are often used for thread-specific variables as well)
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2016-07-05T01:46:39Z sharkteeth: is the best way to alter a single element of a list to construct a new list with the new value or is there an accessor function that's cleaner/more appropriate?
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2016-07-05T01:53:19Z phadthai: purely functional code would usually "cons" or create a new list, but it depends on your needs, if your list is very large, it may be much faster to only alter it; also, if you have other existig references to that list, you would not need to update those for them to see the modifications immediately
2016-07-05T01:54:12Z phadthai: and if you'll often update elements by index, a list might not be the ideal type
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2016-07-05T01:57:16Z fugue: I've got to compare a list with a 2d list of lists: X: (abc) with Y: ((abc) (abcde) (aaa)), and return all sublists that start with X (abc)
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2016-07-05T01:58:37Z fugue: I know there is 'member' method, but is there something like a 'startswith'
2016-07-05T02:00:20Z loke: fugue: you have it in Alexandria
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2016-07-05T02:00:52Z fugue: didn't Alexander the Grape burn it down
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2016-07-05T02:01:35Z fugue: Oh, I thought you were messing around
2016-07-05T02:01:45Z loke: so something like: (remove-if-not (lambda (v) (alexandria:starts-with XXX v :test #'equal)) YYY)
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2016-07-05T02:02:26Z fugue: loke: thanks! although I don't think we're allowed to use external libraries for this assignment
2016-07-05T02:02:31Z fugue: (intro to AI cs course)
2016-07-05T02:03:42Z loke: Well, then you can write your own. It's not like it's hard.
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2016-07-05T02:03:59Z loke: You can look at how Alexandria does it.
2016-07-05T02:04:38Z fugue: true
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2016-07-05T02:05:31Z loke: fugue: You probably want to look at ALEXANDRIA:STARTS-WITH-SUBSEQ
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2016-07-05T02:29:22Z fugue: I have (remove prefix dict :test #'equal), how can I use 'not equal' here?
2016-07-05T02:29:36Z Xach_: :test-not
2016-07-05T02:29:54Z sharkteeth: thanks phadthai
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2016-07-05T02:30:55Z fugue: Xach_: thanks :]
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2016-07-05T02:41:50Z JordiGH: I just tried the Retro Type-In Game from Land of Lisp: http://ideone.com/q2i1W7
2016-07-05T02:42:12Z JordiGH: The problem is that on line 8, (read-char), well... https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=lisp+read+keypress
2016-07-05T02:43:11Z Bike: you can use read-char-no-hang, but streams are not really meant for that kind of keyboard control
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2016-07-05T02:43:45Z JordiGH: ;_;
2016-07-05T02:44:00Z JordiGH: That just acts as if I never input anything and the robots kill me immediately.
2016-07-05T02:44:06Z JordiGH: Well, not immediately.
2016-07-05T02:44:19Z JordiGH: Just as fast as robots can move, which is faster than my fingers can fly.
2016-07-05T02:44:29Z JordiGH: So, what's this about streams not being meant for this kind of thing?
2016-07-05T02:44:57Z JordiGH: Says here I should use cl-curses?
2016-07-05T02:45:15Z Bike: curses would help, yeah. that grabs the keyboard more closely
2016-07-05T02:45:34Z Bike: or... i think it's called charms? cl-charms.
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2016-07-05T02:46:00Z phadthai: sharkteeth: welcome; if you decide to copy the list, there are various functions designed to work on them and return the modified copy, of course; you'll see those in the conses" and "sequences" dictionaries of the hyperspec
2016-07-05T02:46:17Z Bike: streams are for text. you're not doing that, you want to see the keyboard as buttons, which lisp has no built-in mechanism for
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2016-07-05T02:47:32Z sharkteeth: so far i've only been modifying lists by constructing new ones w/ cons, list, or append, but part of the reason for me trying to learn list is to deal with large amounts of data where that might impact performance down the road
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2016-07-05T02:47:40Z sharkteeth: learn lisp, not list
2016-07-05T02:48:05Z sharkteeth: not trying to put the cart before the horse but also trying to avoid bad habits. lisp is definitely a big paradigm shift for me
2016-07-05T02:48:09Z JordiGH: Bike: Okay... I hope I can get that working.
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2016-07-05T02:49:40Z sharkteeth: slowly working through Seibel's Practical Common Lisp
2016-07-05T02:51:05Z JordiGH: Killer robots are more fun in my experience.
2016-07-05T02:51:25Z JordiGH is still trying to figure out that crazy format on line 32.
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2016-07-05T02:51:45Z Bike: have you tried formatter?
2016-07-05T02:51:51Z phadthai: sharkteeth: nice, it's indeed a language which requires some using to.  Also, because lists are made out of conses, it's also possible with tricks to efficiently perform "destructive" operations on them, this has to be done with care too.  It's also possible to keep a "pointer" into a list using a cons reference, to build general trees with those conses etc
2016-07-05T02:52:17Z phadthai: sharkteeth: that's an excellent book, another that I recommend is "on lisp"
2016-07-05T02:52:31Z loke: phadthai: Isn't that Graham's book?
2016-07-05T02:52:54Z phadthai: loke: yes
2016-07-05T02:53:07Z sharkteeth: I'll take a look at it once I finish this one. I also have "Artificial Intelligence w/ Common Lisp" by James Noyes on my desk
2016-07-05T02:53:10Z loke: phadthai: I don't like that one at all. It gives plenty of bad advice.
2016-07-05T02:53:14Z JordiGH: Bike: I'm sure there are clearer ways to do this, but I'm having fun looking at all the crazy things that format can do.
2016-07-05T02:53:17Z phadthai: many don't agree with the scheme-style he used when writing it, but it expands on advanced features like macros etc
2016-07-05T02:53:43Z Bike: JordiGH: no, i mean, to help understand it. if you do (macroexpand-1 '(formatter some-format-string)) you'll get lisp code that does what the format call would do.
2016-07-05T02:53:49Z Bike: which might help, or it might not
2016-07-05T02:53:55Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: How is it?
2016-07-05T02:54:13Z sharkteeth: which one, NeverDie? AI w/ CL or Practical CL?
2016-07-05T02:54:21Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: AI.
2016-07-05T02:54:33Z loke: phadthai: It's not just style. For example, suggesting the use of recusion for loops is not just bad advice, it's effectively destructive.
2016-07-05T02:55:03Z sharkteeth: I just finished the last chapter before he starts getting into the actual AI concepts. The first couple chapters are mostly an intro to lisp. So far it seems pretty concise and well written
2016-07-05T02:55:15Z sharkteeth: I'm taking a break from it until I get more comfortable with the language
2016-07-05T02:55:17Z phadthai: loke: and also very sheme-ish, academic... I agree it's not the best approach with Common Lisp most of the time
2016-07-05T02:55:33Z JordiGH: Bike: Ah, let's see...
2016-07-05T02:55:39Z loke: phadthai: Yes. THe book would have been much better if it had been a Scheme book.
2016-07-05T02:55:53Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Cool. When was it released?
2016-07-05T02:56:17Z sharkteeth: the edition I have is from '92. I think it's a 300 or 400 level CS undergrad textbook
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2016-07-05T02:56:36Z JordiGH: Bike: Ha, no, doesn't help. This looks worse than Maxima code.
2016-07-05T02:56:47Z Bike: oh well.
2016-07-05T02:56:54Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Never been to college. Is that supposed to be somewhat difficult or what.
2016-07-05T02:56:59Z JordiGH: Btw, how do I tell clisp to not be so shouty?
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2016-07-05T02:57:11Z Bike: 400 level is fourth year ish, so yes difficult, sorta.
2016-07-05T02:57:17Z JordiGH: Lowercase, the greatest CS achievement of the 80s.
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2016-07-05T02:57:28Z NeverDie: Bike: Figured as much. So 300 is 3rd year-ish?
2016-07-05T02:57:30Z Bike: try setting *print-case* to :downcase?
2016-07-05T02:57:38Z Bike: NeverDie: yes
2016-07-05T02:57:48Z NeverDie: Which kinds of begs the question as to why not just use that instead of saying 300-400.
2016-07-05T02:57:50Z sharkteeth: I guess what I mean is that it's written at a level that assumes a foundational knowledge of computer science, a little math, and basic programming
2016-07-05T02:57:50Z JordiGH: Bike: Thanks, that works!
2016-07-05T02:57:54Z Bike: of course it's pretty arbitrary
2016-07-05T02:58:12Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Basic stuff then.
2016-07-05T02:58:16Z sharkteeth: some lower-level (first, second year) textbooks are written at more of a THIS IS A COMPUTER level
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2016-07-05T02:59:00Z Bike: NeverDie: well, i took some 300 level courses in my first and second years. just "years" doesn't account for how the prerequisites are, i guess
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2016-07-05T02:59:43Z JordiGH: So, .cl or .lisp file extension?
2016-07-05T02:59:47Z sharkteeth: yeah. basically it's written to be understood by someone that's taken an intro to programming course and understands what a compiler is, what a variable is etc
2016-07-05T03:00:05Z Bike: JordiGH: .lisp
2016-07-05T03:00:06Z phadthai: JordiGH: I also see .lsp :)  I personally like .lisp
2016-07-05T03:00:19Z sharkteeth: i got it for $25 used on amazon if you're interested neverdie
2016-07-05T03:00:23Z JordiGH: Any dissenting votes for .cl?
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2016-07-05T03:01:44Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Thank you for the offer, I'll have to pass. Currently have my hands full with work & trying to learn Racket & Haskell at the same time lol.
2016-07-05T03:01:46Z JordiGH: lol.
2016-07-05T03:02:01Z JordiGH: Seeing none, ".lisp" it is.
2016-07-05T03:02:33Z sharkteeth: yeah i work in a completely non-programming related field so the lisp hacking is on my off time only haha
2016-07-05T03:03:10Z JordiGH: Hm, what is it with non-professional programmers picking up lisp? The guy who wrote Land of Lisp is also some kind of medical doctor, iirc.
2016-07-05T03:03:28Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: I do programming for a living. It's unfortunately not functional programming.
2016-07-05T03:03:30Z sharkteeth: everyone needs a hobby
2016-07-05T03:03:49Z sharkteeth: coding is a lot less stressful when your paycheck doesn't depend on it i suppose
2016-07-05T03:04:04Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Not really, but then again I'm new to coding for money I suppose.
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2016-07-05T03:04:32Z NeverDie: Started learning how to program on my own like 1.5 years ago, but just casually and landed a job 3 months ago.
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2016-07-05T03:05:20Z NeverDie: If anything, working as a programmer has made me crave programming even more it seems.
2016-07-05T03:05:34Z sharkteeth: i'd imagine there's some functional programming gigs out there if you're interested...big data stuff at facebook and google and quant trading firms in NY and Chicago, etc
2016-07-05T03:06:10Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Yeah but they usually want someone with more experience, especially related to the field they're hiring.
2016-07-05T03:06:45Z NeverDie: Although at least I have stuff to back me up when I say I'm one of the fastest learners anyone will ever meet rofl.
2016-07-05T03:08:13Z sharkteeth: i can't speak for tech firms but i do know that trading firms don't really give a shit about experience. interviews are mostly about fast learning/adaptability and basic exposure to the technology
2016-07-05T03:09:04Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: You used to work at a trading firm?
2016-07-05T03:09:51Z sharkteeth: no...i interviewed at one for a trading desk job a few years ago and have friends in that area though
2016-07-05T03:09:59Z sharkteeth: i have no desire to live in that world
2016-07-05T03:10:14Z NeverDie: How much does it pay?
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2016-07-05T03:11:06Z sharkteeth: on the quant side i'm not sure. i was looking more into the trading side which is performance-based pay
2016-07-05T03:11:06Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: And what's the work really like.
2016-07-05T03:11:27Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: You're from NYC?
2016-07-05T03:11:28Z sharkteeth: building risk models and automated trading systems
2016-07-05T03:11:32Z sharkteeth: no i live in the midwest
2016-07-05T03:11:46Z sharkteeth: most of this kind of stuff is based out of Chicago
2016-07-05T03:11:51Z NeverDie: Ah. Once upon a time you were in NYC?
2016-07-05T03:12:05Z NeverDie: I'm actually from NYC myself and I've been interested about that kind of stuff.
2016-07-05T03:12:12Z sharkteeth: nope...live in detroit, undergrad in MI.
2016-07-05T03:12:48Z sharkteeth: most of these firms trade CBOE/CME instruments like futures and options so they co-locate with the exchanges in Chi
2016-07-05T03:13:04Z sharkteeth: there are some HFT firms in NY/NJ but i'm not familiar with them or what they do
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2016-07-05T03:14:51Z sharkteeth: if you search "chicago quant trading" or "chicago prop trading" you'll get a decent cross section of firms pretty quick
2016-07-05T03:15:23Z sharkteeth: some firms are heavier into the HFT/automated (read: programming) side than others, i.e. jane street, citadel
2016-07-05T03:16:10Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Interesting. What does the field usually pay?
2016-07-05T03:16:57Z sharkteeth: I'm honestly not sure about the quant side. trading desk is six figures after a year or two of training plus performance
2016-07-05T03:17:59Z sharkteeth: it's hard to say because a lot of that kind of pay is dependent on the strength of the firm as well as how well you do, kinda like wall st. bonuses vs base pay
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2016-07-05T03:19:03Z fugue: I've got a list=A and a list of lists=B. I take the list-length of A and want to iterate (recursive) through lists in B and print ONLY the first list-length elements like so: (print (subseq a 0 (list-length b))
2016-07-05T03:19:30Z fugue: ^ this seems to work when I manually type, but fails for The bounding indices 0 and 2 are bad for a sequence of length 1.
2016-07-05T03:19:35Z Polyphony: NeverDie: I've found some relevant info in /r/math before, it's probably worth a look. I've been looking into simlar areas recently
2016-07-05T03:19:45Z loke: fugue: In Common Lisp you don't iterate by recursion
2016-07-05T03:20:16Z fugue: Well, its a recursive function I need to write for this assignment :P
2016-07-05T03:20:24Z Bike: welcome hell
2016-07-05T03:20:25Z loke: fugue: Lisp has a very powerful LOOP construct that you use for such purposes. Or, you use the various mapping functions.
2016-07-05T03:20:28Z Bike: fugue: code?
2016-07-05T03:20:31Z sharkteeth: the main reason I'm learning lisp is for my own trading (which is my real hobby)
2016-07-05T03:20:32Z fugue: sec, pasting
2016-07-05T03:20:42Z loke: fugue: Well, if your friends asked you to jump off a roof, would you?
2016-07-05T03:20:54Z Bike: depends, how much does this affect my GPA
2016-07-05T03:20:59Z loke: fugue: Using recursion for loops in Common Lisp is simply incorrect
2016-07-05T03:20:59Z fugue: haha
2016-07-05T03:21:08Z sharkteeth: the financial markets are a 24/6 fire hydrant of data and lisp seemed like the best tool to get a handle on it
2016-07-05T03:21:25Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319845
2016-07-05T03:21:39Z sharkteeth: loke: i thought ease of recursion was one of the selling points of lisp? is there a reason it's a bad idea vs iteration?
2016-07-05T03:21:46Z Bike: your indentation is pretty messed up, just fyi
2016-07-05T03:22:12Z loke: sharkteeth: Because Common Lisp doesn't give you tail recursion elimination, so recursion will blow the stack i or at least use excessive amounts of memory.
2016-07-05T03:22:18Z fugue: I apologize for that, I'm a total newbie with LISP. The indentation (for now) just lets me see it a little clearer
2016-07-05T03:22:30Z Bike: sharkteeth: recursion is fine, but assignments like this are extremely artificial. the idea is to show you that loops can be done with recursion, but it seems overbearing
2016-07-05T03:22:46Z Bike: fugue: this doesn't have any calls to subseq?
2016-07-05T03:22:48Z loke: sharkteeth: Recursion is fine when it's warranted, like in a tree-decent algorithm. But using it instead of loops is plain incorrect.
2016-07-05T03:23:00Z sharkteeth: fair enough, thanks
2016-07-05T03:23:03Z fugue: oh my, one sec!
2016-07-05T03:23:58Z NeverDie: Polyphony: You work as a software engineer as well?
2016-07-05T03:24:07Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319846
2016-07-05T03:24:14Z loke: fugue: I've annotated your code with proper formatting:
2016-07-05T03:24:19Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319845#1
2016-07-05T03:24:29Z fugue: loke: thanks!
2016-07-05T03:25:06Z Polyphony: NeverDie: no, I'm very early in school, heading towards a bs in applied math.  I just do hobby programming on the side.
2016-07-05T03:25:10Z loke: fugue: The if null thing is pretty ugly too. I'd rather do it like so:
2016-07-05T03:25:17Z Bike: fugue: okay, so what's an example of arguments you're passing? there's no particular guarantee that prefix and dict have appropriate lengths here
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2016-07-05T03:25:46Z fugue: (lookup '(a b) '( (a b c) (a b c d) (a b c d e) (a a) )
2016-07-05T03:25:53Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319845#2
2016-07-05T03:26:16Z fugue: For my case, it's safe to assume that dict has at least 'list-length prefix' elements
2016-07-05T03:26:34Z sharkteeth: polyphony , you consider applying for gov't jobs with an applied math degree?
2016-07-05T03:27:08Z Bike: fugue: oh. it's that you're calling subseq on dict, rather than (car dict).
2016-07-05T03:27:12Z sharkteeth: (assuming you're U.S.) you should be eligible for internships as well
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2016-07-05T03:27:38Z Bike: fugue: so it iterates as far as dict = ((a a)), at which point dict is a one-element list, so the subseq is an error.
2016-07-05T03:28:02Z fugue: shame
2016-07-05T03:28:05Z fugue: shame
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2016-07-05T03:28:13Z fugue: :[ I feel like a fool
2016-07-05T03:28:15Z Bike: this is also why it's printing (a b c) instead of (a b)
2016-07-05T03:28:53Z fugue: thanks Bike
2016-07-05T03:28:55Z Bike: imagine i said "mistakes are how we learn" except as a cleverer aphorism so it's more memorable
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2016-07-05T03:29:37Z fugue: I'm pretty excited I got my bike in last week, a specialized crosstrail disc. Do you bike, Bike?
2016-07-05T03:29:46Z Polyphony: sharkteeth: I've looked into them a bit... I feel like I need more schooling before I become of any use as an intern though.  Perhaps that's not the best way to go about it though.
2016-07-05T03:30:03Z Bike: sadly no, though i ought to
2016-07-05T03:30:11Z Bike: i just walk everywhere, like a putz
2016-07-05T03:30:28Z loke: fugue: XC MTB?
2016-07-05T03:30:37Z sharkteeth: just apply, Polyphony. Worst case they say no
2016-07-05T03:30:43Z fugue: loke: its a hybrid
2016-07-05T03:30:56Z sharkteeth: best case you'll get to work on a lot of cool projects
2016-07-05T03:30:59Z loke: fugue: I got my new custom bike a couple of weeks ago:
2016-07-05T03:31:05Z fugue: let me see!
2016-07-05T03:31:30Z loke: fugue: https://goo.gl/photos/Xnt874kopN6Zs8E98
2016-07-05T03:31:57Z fugue: Nice
2016-07-05T03:32:15Z loke: custom fabricated titanium frame :-)
2016-07-05T03:32:21Z loke: bought all parts separately.
2016-07-05T03:32:37Z fugue: oh wow, how much did that come out to?
2016-07-05T03:32:46Z loke: fugue: A bit more than expected :-)
2016-07-05T03:32:50Z fugue: ha!
2016-07-05T03:32:59Z loke: about 7000 SGD
2016-07-05T03:33:12Z fugue: Oh my
2016-07-05T03:33:21Z loke: which is about 4666 EUR
2016-07-05T03:33:22Z fugue: I thought I went overboard with $600 USD
2016-07-05T03:33:44Z fugue: this is my first sorta 'real bike'
2016-07-05T03:35:59Z loke: Pics?
2016-07-05T03:37:32Z fugue: http://i.imgur.com/Za7URYe.jpg
2016-07-05T03:39:09Z NeverDie: fugue: All you need is this to go with it: http://www.goruck.com/gr1-black-/p/GEAR-000574
2016-07-05T03:39:39Z fugue: $300!
2016-07-05T03:39:45Z loke: fugue: If I may give one piece of advice:
2016-07-05T03:40:03Z loke: fugue: Spend a few tens of dollars and get more comfortable pedals.
2016-07-05T03:40:21Z NeverDie: fugue: Yeah I've been going back and forth on buying it or not lol.
2016-07-05T03:40:23Z fugue: Do you have any suggestions on pedals?
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2016-07-05T03:40:51Z NeverDie: Since I recently bought a new backpack before I found that one, but it's 40 liters. Something like that 21 liter goruck would be perfect and stylish to go around with in the city.
2016-07-05T03:40:55Z NeverDie: Like for daily use.
2016-07-05T03:41:13Z fugue: Yeah that does look pretty sweet and spacious
2016-07-05T03:41:31Z loke: fugue: Sure. What's your budget?
2016-07-05T03:41:51Z fugue: On pedals? I have no idea, just keep in mind I'm an absolute amateur :]
2016-07-05T03:41:51Z NeverDie: fugue: I mean the goruck is 21 liters. Which is small and nimble for every day city use.
2016-07-05T03:42:16Z loke: fugue: The problem with the ones you have is that they are plastic and becomes slippery and "flexible"
2016-07-05T03:42:45Z fugue: On a side note, I want to compare prefix and subseq of dict, and remove it from dict if they are not equal using this. (remove prefix (subseq (car dict) 0 (list-length prefix)) :test-not #'equal)
2016-07-05T03:42:47Z loke: You want metal pedals with nubs on them that keeps your feet in place. It's an enormous difference.
2016-07-05T03:42:55Z fugue: is there a destructive method so I can return dict?
2016-07-05T03:43:06Z fugue: loke: I did notice my feet sliding to hell off the bike
2016-07-05T03:44:04Z loke: fugue: These are nice: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/wellgo-cnc-platform-b164-flat-pedals/rp-prod85506
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2016-07-05T03:44:46Z fugue: nice
2016-07-05T03:45:14Z NeverDie: loke: Seems like they'd be painful to use barefoot lol.
2016-07-05T03:45:30Z loke: NeverDie: Yes. That's true. You need shoes :-)
2016-07-05T03:45:50Z loke: But the benefit of those nubs are really night and day compared to the ones fugue has now.
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2016-07-05T03:46:42Z fugue: loke: Would they work well with just plain sneakers?
2016-07-05T03:46:57Z loke: fugue: Yes, definitely.
2016-07-05T03:47:13Z loke: fugue: I ride on such pedals with sneakers.
2016-07-05T03:48:19Z loke: fugue: Just go to a bike shop and check what they have. The important thing is that you want metal pedals, which doesn't slip.
2016-07-05T03:49:13Z loke: fugue: From what I can see, the rest is fine on that bike as long as you don't intend to go offroad.
2016-07-05T03:49:49Z fugue: Yeah, probably not any time soon. We have a long highway stretch here and a nice asphalt road alongside
2016-07-05T03:51:17Z loke: fugue: Then you'll be fine. Your tyres are designed for roads. I have been thinking of getting another bike with your kind of tyres for commuting purposes. By MTB is quite bad for that since it's optimised for muddy jungle trails.
2016-07-05T03:54:29Z fugue: Nice, do you often go through muddy jungle trails?
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2016-07-05T03:54:45Z loke: fugue: Every week :-)
2016-07-05T03:54:57Z fugue: Nice, mind if I ask where you live?
2016-07-05T03:55:08Z loke: fugue: Singapore.
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2016-07-05T04:00:16Z loke: fugue: Some random youtube searching found this video with some mud on the Singapore trails: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWLX9G8qyDQ
2016-07-05T04:00:26Z loke: (not my video, I wasn't part of that event)
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2016-07-05T04:01:16Z fugue: If I did anything like that around where I'm from, I'd have a few bears chasing me
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2016-07-05T04:02:07Z loke: Where is that?
2016-07-05T04:02:12Z fugue: Virginia, US
2016-07-05T04:02:52Z loke: fugue: You seem to have quite a few nice ones:
2016-07-05T04:02:53Z loke: http://www.singletracks.com/mountain-bike/best_trails.php?new_state_id=427
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2016-07-05T04:03:02Z loke: woah
2016-07-05T04:03:02Z loke: http://www.singletracks.com/Virginia-bike-trails_44.html
2016-07-05T04:03:44Z fugue: ha
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2016-07-05T04:08:18Z fugue: Can someone help with this syntax?
2016-07-05T04:08:20Z fugue: let ((x '()) )
2016-07-05T04:08:20Z fugue: (defun lookup (prefix dict ret)
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2016-07-05T04:08:42Z fugue: I'm trying to have an empty list X that I can append to within the function (recursively)
2016-07-05T04:09:04Z fugue: So the prof said we can have our functions within 'let' and we'd be able to achieve this
2016-07-05T04:09:24Z fugue: Keep hitting this: debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-VARIABLE: The variable LET is unbound.
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2016-07-05T04:09:35Z fugue: OH
2016-07-05T04:09:59Z fugue: of course missing (
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2016-07-05T04:41:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-05T04:41:47Z fugue: good morning
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2016-07-05T04:50:58Z John[Lisbeth]: So I've been thinking alot about how nothing particularly makes a lisp a lisp, but this is hard to reconcile with the claim that any lisp can do what any other liso can do.
2016-07-05T04:51:44Z John[Lisbeth]: The way I understand it is lisp's compiler is a repl changeable any way at any time, so in theory common lisp could pick up any feature that say shen or clojure has
2016-07-05T04:52:24Z John[Lisbeth]: But I am wondering if that's not just because cl is turing complete
2016-07-05T04:53:38Z Bike: there are plenty of things you can't modify lisp's compiler to do.
2016-07-05T04:53:46Z John[Lisbeth]: For example common lisp cold create an enviroent that within that environment everything had strict typing and type checking, but I feel a c programmer would say that environment is heavily bootstrapped
2016-07-05T04:53:59Z Polyphony left #lisp
2016-07-05T04:54:39Z fugue: Can someone help me get line 12 to add (car dict) to X ?
2016-07-05T04:54:54Z fugue: I've been stck on this for some time now :/
2016-07-05T04:54:55Z Bike: line twelve of what?
2016-07-05T04:55:01Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319852
2016-07-05T04:55:04Z fugue: That may help ^
2016-07-05T04:55:31Z fugue: Line 17 can be ignored, i will remove
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2016-07-05T04:56:02Z Bike: i don't know what this does or what it's supposed to do
2016-07-05T04:56:04Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319852#1
2016-07-05T04:56:45Z fugue: This is the same function, takes 2 params lookup '(a b) '( (a b c) (a b c d) (d e f) ). if the second list starts with (a b) its supposed to add it to a list
2016-07-05T04:56:50Z fugue: I can only get it to print right now
2016-07-05T04:57:04Z Bike: so, first off, do not pass quoted data to nconc
2016-07-05T04:57:39Z fugue: It was an attempted I failed at. I've also tried append with no luck
2016-07-05T04:58:12Z Bike: you said "add it to a list". is this list supposed to be returned, or what?
2016-07-05T04:58:22Z fugue: Yep, returned as a list
2016-07-05T04:58:33Z fugue: * (lookup '(a b) '((a b c) (a b d e) (d e f) (a b a b) ))
2016-07-05T04:58:33Z fugue: (A B C)
2016-07-05T04:58:33Z fugue: (A B D E)
2016-07-05T04:58:34Z fugue: (A B A B)
2016-07-05T04:59:06Z Bike: you mean it should return ((a b c) (a b d e) (a b a b))?
2016-07-05T04:59:14Z fugue: Yeah
2016-07-05T04:59:20Z Bike: does order matter?
2016-07-05T04:59:24Z fugue: No
2016-07-05T04:59:53Z Bike: ok, so you shouldn't use nconc or append or anything.
2016-07-05T05:00:04Z fugue: Why isn't cons working?
2016-07-05T05:00:35Z Bike: it looks like you're just calling (cons element x). that just makes a new cons and returns it. it doesn't affect x in any way.
2016-07-05T05:01:11Z Bike: to modify x you should use setf.
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2016-07-05T05:01:39Z beach: Wow, that code is pretty bad looking.
2016-07-05T05:01:57Z fugue: Yeah its pretty bad :/
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2016-07-05T05:02:22Z beach: fugue: It is very impolite to submit badly formatted code for others to read.
2016-07-05T05:02:49Z beach: fugue: You force them to count parentheses, whereas Common Lisp programmers use indentation to determine control flow.
2016-07-05T05:03:45Z fugue: I apologize. If it helps any, the close parens do match the opening parens
2016-07-05T05:04:03Z beach: That doesn't help.  The indentation is wrong.
2016-07-05T05:04:16Z beach: fugue: read your code into Emacs+SLIME, indent it correctly, and then resubmit.
2016-07-05T05:04:43Z beach: fugue: And no whitespace after ( or before ) so no ) on a line by itself.
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2016-07-05T05:08:33Z adhoc[]: beach: is there style guide doco ? i've noticed quite varied indentation/styles abound
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2016-07-05T05:09:16Z beach: adhoc[]: I seriously doubt that you will find a lot of variation in indentation style by experienced Common Lisp programmers.
2016-07-05T05:09:33Z beach: adhoc[]: Usually, the slime-indentation contribution does it right.
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2016-07-05T05:11:21Z adhoc[]: beach: variation, i'm ceratinly not an experienced CL programmer, but i see it out there. genrally use emacs autoformat.
2016-07-05T05:11:59Z alchmzt: 8spaces per tab
2016-07-05T05:12:18Z beach: alchmzt: How is that important?
2016-07-05T05:12:23Z adhoc[]: what are these "tabs" ?
2016-07-05T05:13:40Z alchmzt is attempting to incidte tabs vs spaces holy war
2016-07-05T05:14:26Z fugue: Bike: where would you use setf?
2016-07-05T05:14:41Z beach: http://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~idurand/enseignement/PFS/Common/Strandh-Tutorial/indentation.html
2016-07-05T05:15:05Z beach: adhoc[]: Some rules ↑
2016-07-05T05:15:49Z pillton: Hmmm. "Generic functions must not be used for "overloading", i.e. simply to use the same name for two entirely unrelated types."
2016-07-05T05:15:52Z beach: adhoc[]: But no sane programmer would look at such a guide and indent manually according to it.  They would use slime-indentation instead.
2016-07-05T05:16:06Z adhoc[]: thats handy, thank you =)
2016-07-05T05:16:08Z pillton is reading the Google style guide.
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2016-07-05T05:16:43Z adhoc[]: beach: things like the hanging vs trailing ')'s isn't obvious
2016-07-05T05:16:52Z adhoc[]: well, wasn't to me =)
2016-07-05T05:17:13Z Bike: fugue: where you intend to modify x, i.e. add on a matching element.
2016-07-05T05:17:29Z Bike: fugue: by the way, x is kind of a piss name. you could call it "accumulator" or "result" or something at least.
2016-07-05T05:17:31Z beach: adhoc[]: There is nothing "obvious" about programming.  It is about communication, and you learn the conventions by participating in that communication.
2016-07-05T05:18:32Z adhoc[]: beach: indeed.
2016-07-05T05:18:45Z beach: adhoc[]: What fugue is doing is like trying to write fiction without having read anything written by others.
2016-07-05T05:18:51Z adhoc[]: does take a little while to grok the convention =)
2016-07-05T05:19:01Z beach: Yes, 10000 hours they say.
2016-07-05T05:19:08Z beach: Some say 10 years.
2016-07-05T05:19:14Z beach: Same order of magnitude.
2016-07-05T05:19:32Z adhoc[]: thats fair enough, we get to specialize in different things
2016-07-05T05:21:01Z pillton: Does anyone know what a MOP "intercessory" operation is?
2016-07-05T05:21:27Z beach: pillton: Where did you see that term?
2016-07-05T05:21:50Z pillton: beach: https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml?showone=CLOS#CLOS
2016-07-05T05:22:04Z pillton: Fourth paragraph from the end.
2016-07-05T05:23:10Z beach: I have no idea.  You should ask Fare.
2016-07-05T05:24:10Z pillton: Here it is. http://franz.com/services/conferences_seminars/jlugm00/conference/Talk02_deLacaze1.pdf
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2016-07-05T05:24:43Z pillton: From what I remember, AMOP defines three layers: Syntax, Glue and Object.
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2016-07-05T05:26:22Z beach: I don't recall seeing that terminology in the AMOP book.  But I could easily have forgotten.
2016-07-05T05:30:06Z phadthai: hmm http://unknownlamer.org/muse/Metaobject%20Protocols.html#sec16
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2016-07-05T05:54:31Z PuercoPop: pillton: I would take intercessory as something that changes/creates
2016-07-05T05:54:57Z PuercoPop: the AMOP talks about two important properties introspection and intercession
2016-07-05T05:55:23Z PuercoPop: so like find-class is introspection and ensure-class is intercession
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2016-07-05T05:56:33Z PuercoPop: ah I haven't seen that link, thanks phadthai!
2016-07-05T05:56:42Z phadthai: me neither before today
2016-07-05T05:59:56Z beach: pillton: PuercoPop is right.  On page 71, the AMOP discusses intercessory protocols.
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2016-07-05T06:11:41Z pillton: Well there you go.
2016-07-05T06:12:05Z pillton: It seems strange to discourage the use of ensure-class.
2016-07-05T06:12:14Z pillton: ...and friends.
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2016-07-05T07:31:35Z DavidGu: Hi everyone, I have an interesting problem about 'dolist' behavior in different implementations
2016-07-05T07:31:41Z DavidGu: https://gist.github.com/macdavid313/8c83a12b86cc839af77bd7035624901e
2016-07-05T07:33:01Z DavidGu: I occasionally found this, and I did check the macro expansions, still couldn't tell why
2016-07-05T07:33:03Z Bike: "It is implementation-dependent whether dolist establishes a new binding of var on each iteration or whether it establishes a binding for var once at the beginning and then assigns it on any subsequent iterations."
2016-07-05T07:33:54Z Bike: if all the lambdas use the same binding they'll all return the same thing. if there's a new binding for every iteration (probably another LET in the expansion) they'll be different.
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2016-07-05T07:34:43Z DavidGu: Aha, now I see
2016-07-05T07:34:54Z DavidGu: Bike: thanks very much
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2016-07-05T10:32:11Z schjetne: I have some classes that are meant to be immutable except in the initialization phase of my program, so I'm uneasy about exporting accessors for general use. What are some good ways to go about this?
2016-07-05T10:32:14Z schjetne: I'm considering either putting initialization code in the same package as the classes (poor separation of concerns) or defining both readers and accessors and re-exporting from different packages (verbose)
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2016-07-05T10:35:08Z schjetne: Or third, making everything setf-able (a temptation to abuse in the future, introducing bugs)
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2016-07-05T10:40:16Z loke: schjetne: Well, two options:
2016-07-05T10:40:37Z loke: schjetne: 1) Don't export the accessors so that they are only visible from within the local package
2016-07-05T10:41:02Z loke: schjetne: 2) Use SETF of SLOT-VALUE to access the values, instead of the accessors
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2016-07-05T10:44:06Z schjetne: Here's what I'm leaning towards: packages :foo, :foo.model, :foo.init. :foo.model exports both readers and accessors, which are used by :foo.init
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2016-07-05T10:44:29Z schjetne: :foo only exports safe methods from :foo.model
2016-07-05T10:44:46Z schjetne: Which will be the API for the whole system
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2016-07-05T10:46:15Z schjetne: It has the added advantage of any implementation changes in foo.model won't have to be reflected in foo.init since I won't be using (SETF SLOT-VALUE)
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2016-07-05T10:48:47Z schjetne: loke: thanks for the input!
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2016-07-05T11:18:29Z Grue``: I would use something like with-slots internally and export readers
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2016-07-05T11:37:05Z schjetne: Grue``: then I'd need to export slot names instead
2016-07-05T11:37:18Z schjetne: Given that I want to keep the initialization code in its own package
2016-07-05T11:38:06Z Grue``: that sounds painful
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2016-07-05T11:40:57Z scholarlyaspirat: Hi
2016-07-05T11:41:53Z scholarlyaspirat: My question is: would lisp be still relevant in current a.i. development
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2016-07-05T11:43:41Z scholarlyaspirat: I mean, current libraries aren't lisp based. So is there any use learning lisp might provide
2016-07-05T11:43:56Z scholarlyaspirat: Everyone talks about lisp. I was curious
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2016-07-05T11:44:55Z schjetne: Grue``: the initialization code is responsible for reading from very specific files. I don't want that cluttering up my nice, clean model package.
2016-07-05T11:48:45Z schjetne: schoppenhauer: Give it a try and see if you like it. It's a general-purpose language, it's not just for AI. Here's a good intro: http://lisp-lang.org
2016-07-05T11:49:06Z schjetne: sorry, meant the guy who just quit
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2016-07-05T12:40:50Z Grue``: in the first place, I wouldn't design an object in such a way that making an instance of it causes file reads
2016-07-05T12:44:04Z dxtr: What library would you recommend for parsing and generating XML?
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2016-07-05T12:45:10Z Xach: dxtr: I have been happy with cxml.
2016-07-05T12:45:27Z dxtr: And it can generate XML too?
2016-07-05T12:47:16Z dxtr: Oh yeah it can. Neat.
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2016-07-05T12:54:35Z Xach: dxtr: the main downside for me is I can never internalize the rules, so i refer to the docs+tutorial often. but they are pretty good so it's not a big deal.
2016-07-05T12:54:47Z dxtr: Right
2016-07-05T12:55:11Z dxtr: Well it's gonna be a whole lot of XML parsing if I get anywhere with this project :p
2016-07-05T12:57:34Z schjetne: Grue``: it doesn't. But the code that does read from files need to mutate the objects as it creates them. And that code decidedly does not belong with the definitions of the object classes and methods.
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2016-07-05T13:01:19Z jason_m: minion: memo for rumbler31: As you noticed, the type-specifier is not a keyword.  I annotated your paste with what I get in ccl with default compiler settings.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/319836#1
2016-07-05T13:01:19Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rumbler31 when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-07-05T13:01:19Z minion: jason_m, memo from rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319836 does not produce error
2016-07-05T13:01:19Z minion: jason_m, memo from rumbler31: ok, when the :type is string, not :string, I can reproduce the rror
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2016-07-05T13:04:48Z okflo: \who
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2016-07-05T13:13:58Z stilda: In C++ I have a possibility to create objects on stack. Is there anything like this in lisp? When I do (let ((a 10)) ..) is it going to be heap allocated or put on stack?
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2016-07-05T13:16:50Z _death: stilda: it's implementation-dependent.. you can also check out dynamic-extent declaration
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2016-07-05T13:34:25Z stilda: I am trying to understand when heap allocation is happening. (Apart from those standard scenarios when heap should be used that I know from standard languages).
2016-07-05T13:35:50Z stilda: Functions seems to do heap allocation for argument list in some cases. This is very unusual to me.
2016-07-05T13:36:21Z Xach: stilda: what prompts the curiosity?
2016-07-05T13:36:38Z Xach: stilda: in many situations, it is not necessary to care.
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2016-07-05T13:38:42Z stilda: Xach: just want to understand where garbage comes from. I understand I have to use heap when do not know the size of memory chunk at compile time.
2016-07-05T13:38:57Z Xach: well, when a program and an allocator love each other very much...
2016-07-05T13:39:43Z Xach: stilda: fair enough. i hope the desire to understand does not stand in the way of doing things too much.
2016-07-05T13:40:02Z stilda: heap allocation at each function call. is it true?
2016-07-05T13:40:08Z Xach: stilda: no.
2016-07-05T13:40:44Z Xach: stilda: well, it could be true - implementations have freedom. but implementations generally work hard to do good things for performance.
2016-07-05T13:41:24Z stilda: good. No, I do not have any problems with performance at the moment.
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2016-07-05T13:42:13Z stilda: It is just that I more or less understand how c/c++ works, but lisp is a black box in this regard for me.
2016-07-05T13:42:34Z stilda: good, thank you Xach
2016-07-05T13:43:13Z Xach: stilda: much of the time, you can continue to treat it as a black box. i understand there are times when you have to open the box, but they may be less often than you think if you are used to other models.
2016-07-05T13:43:48Z Xach: it is not bad to understand, unless the quest for understanding completely blocks all other progress
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2016-07-05T13:45:11Z _death: clhs disassemble
2016-07-05T13:45:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_disass.htm
2016-07-05T13:45:18Z stilda: I have recently read "The roots of lisp" which talks about beautiful  property of being able to write interpreter of a language with a very small number of primitives using the same primitives.
2016-07-05T13:46:17Z stilda: I do not understand how this impact the lisp, what are the consecuences of this and why it is importent.
2016-07-05T13:46:26Z stilda: I do not understand how this impact the lisp, what are the consecuences of this and why it is important.
2016-07-05T13:47:04Z stilda: Is there any reading explaining why is it so great?
2016-07-05T13:47:27Z jdz: time from concept to a working program is minimal?
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2016-07-05T13:50:17Z stilda: jdz: how is it related?
2016-07-05T13:51:26Z jdz: how is it not related?
2016-07-05T13:51:55Z jdz: i have no idea about "the roots of lisp" you mention, though
2016-07-05T13:52:27Z jdz: but "being able to do something" with "already provided building blocks" sounds like a lot of saved time
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2016-07-05T13:52:38Z loke`: Good evening Lisp
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2016-07-05T13:54:34Z Xach: hi loke`
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2016-07-05T13:56:49Z loke`: Hello Xach
2016-07-05T13:58:27Z loke` will be travelling to Europe tomorrow
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2016-07-05T14:01:37Z rumbler31: stilda: a similar question would be "what property about c++ that makes writing a compiler difficult is valueable?"
2016-07-05T14:01:37Z minion: rumbler31, memo from jason_m: As you noticed, the type-specifier is not a keyword.  I annotated your paste with what I get in ccl with default compiler settings.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/319836#1
2016-07-05T14:01:44Z jdz: loke`: any plans to visit London (which still is part of Europe)?
2016-07-05T14:01:50Z rumbler31: Hi Xach
2016-07-05T14:02:01Z Xach: Hello rumbler31
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2016-07-05T14:04:29Z Xach: loke`: secret lisp conference?
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2016-07-05T14:05:08Z rumbler31: Xach: I was making changes to a system obtained via quicklisp "in place", and I wish to carry those changes oveer to a new computer and continue working with them.  the new computer already has this system downloaded via quicklisp.  If I simply stuff the modified version into local-projects, will it get picked up in place of the already installed version? or do I need to do
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2016-07-05T14:05:33Z Xach: rumbler31: things in local-projects will be loaded before anything quicklisp provides
2016-07-05T14:05:52Z Xach: rumbler31: i think it is not good to modify things like you have done, though. better to copy it to local-projects first.
2016-07-05T14:05:54Z loke`: Xach: not really :-)
2016-07-05T14:06:01Z Xach: rumbler31: there is too great a risk of losing the changes otherwise
2016-07-05T14:06:09Z loke`: Xach: Going to Paris for work, and spending some days in Sweden to see old friends
2016-07-05T14:06:34Z rumbler31: Xach:  I see that I should have started that way.  thank you
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2016-07-05T14:17:34Z knobo1: in bordeaux-threads a recursive lock is a lock that can be aquired multiple times by the same thread, right?
2016-07-05T14:17:50Z knobo1: and not much more then that?
2016-07-05T14:18:13Z stilda: jdz: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.ps
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2016-07-05T14:19:07Z loke`: knobo1: Yes
2016-07-05T14:20:32Z knobo1: I'm debugging a bug in log4cl on abcl.
2016-07-05T14:20:42Z knobo1: And I think I have found a solution.
2016-07-05T14:20:59Z knobo1: But I don't 100% understand what is going on.
2016-07-05T14:21:05Z loke`: knobo1: I'm using log4cl, and I've been trying to port Potato to ABCL. Should I be concerned about this bug?
2016-07-05T14:21:37Z knobo1: loke`: not unless you are doing more then simple configuration.
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2016-07-05T14:22:22Z loke`: knobo1: Wha consitutes "simple"? I use a rotating log writer and simply set various log levels for the different modules.
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2016-07-05T14:23:40Z knobo1: loke`: I'll show you how to reproduce the bug, and what I've done to fix it.
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2016-07-05T14:23:48Z knobo1: just a minute.
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2016-07-05T14:26:57Z knobo1: loke`: https://github.com/knobo/log4cl/commit/47e28e46ecca972a7a6126be76558c5386f7eb56
2016-07-05T14:27:09Z knobo1: Check if you have the same problem
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2016-07-05T14:32:42Z knobo1: loke`: I would need to test log4cl a bit, to see that everthing is ok.
2016-07-05T14:32:42Z loke`: knobo1: When I try your command, I get this:
2016-07-05T14:32:42Z loke`: "The value of BORDEAUX-THREADS::LOCK is #S(BORDEAUX-THREADS::MUTEX :NAME "Anonymous lock" :LOCK #<java.util.concurrent.locks.ReentrantLock java.util.concurrent.locks.Reent.... {4B60760C}>), which is not of type BORDEAUX-THREADS::MUTEX-RECURSIVE."
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2016-07-05T14:46:16Z loke`: Woah, something has happened to ABCL recently. Potato now runs flawlessly as long as I disable websocket
2016-07-05T14:46:21Z loke`: Pretty cool this
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2016-07-05T14:54:42Z knobo1: loke`: what is potato?
2016-07-05T14:55:08Z eudoxia: a slack clone
2016-07-05T14:55:30Z eudoxia: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato
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2016-07-05T14:55:54Z loke`: thanks eudoxia :-)
2016-07-05T14:56:10Z loke`: Anyway, the point was that ABCL has no problem running what is a quite complex application.
2016-07-05T14:56:18Z loke`: I should run the throughput tests.
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2016-07-05T15:31:55Z isoraqathedh: Maybe I'm mapping too much: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319874
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2016-07-05T15:53:19Z knobo1: isoraqathedh: you can do several things in one loop instead of mapping over the same list several times.
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2016-07-05T15:59:03Z knobo1: loke`: but you did not have any trouble with log4cl on abcl before?
2016-07-05T15:59:24Z loke`: knobo1: None. And still don't.
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2016-07-05T18:52:42Z fugue: is there a good way to determine if '(b c) is a part of '(a b c) or '(b c d e) ?
2016-07-05T18:52:56Z fugue: Or which way? I am trying to make use of member with no luck
2016-07-05T18:53:15Z fugue: I pretty much have a list '(b c) and a list of lists (flat) '( (b c d) (a b c) ... )
2016-07-05T18:54:14Z _z: subsetp
2016-07-05T18:55:23Z fugue: _z: awesome, thanks
2016-07-05T18:55:36Z _z: np
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2016-07-05T19:00:34Z knobo1: fugue: depends on what you want to do. From example (search '(b c) '(b c d e)) could be the right example, not subsetp.
2016-07-05T19:01:07Z fugue: I need to return a list of all lists containing that subset
2016-07-05T19:02:43Z _z: you can build that list recursively using subsetp
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2016-07-05T19:14:35Z Grue`: please don't build list recursively, use remove-if-not instead
2016-07-05T19:15:05Z _z: i was also thinking about that
2016-07-05T19:15:10Z fugue: remove-if-not??
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2016-07-05T19:15:19Z _z: why not build lists recursively?
2016-07-05T19:15:24Z fugue: is that destructive?
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2016-07-05T19:16:28Z fugue: I'm going to paste my horribly formatted code. But its ideal for me to see what's going on as I'm a complete newbie
2016-07-05T19:16:50Z fugue: _z or Grue` can you show? http://paste.lisp.org/display/319882
2016-07-05T19:19:26Z pjb: (list (tailp '(b c) '(a b c)) (tailp '(a b c) '(b c)) (let ((tail '(b c))) (tailp tail (cons 'a tail)))) #| --> (nil nil t) |#
2016-07-05T19:19:30Z Bike: remove-if-not is not destructive
2016-07-05T19:19:39Z pjb: fugue: ^
2016-07-05T19:19:40Z Grue`: there's so much wrong with this, are you reading any lisp books?
2016-07-05T19:19:52Z Grue`: because you probably should
2016-07-05T19:19:54Z fugue: We don't have any lisp books, only power point slides
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2016-07-05T19:20:01Z Bike: your class sucks
2016-07-05T19:20:07Z Bike: fugue: you have two different x's, and there's no reason for this to be a closure anyway
2016-07-05T19:20:18Z fugue: It does, its a summer session squashed in 4.5 weeks
2016-07-05T19:20:24Z Bike: you might want to read PCL or gentle introduction or something
2016-07-05T19:20:50Z fugue: And quite frankly, this is a 400 level class they provided in the summer time which I need to graduate, else I would not have taken AI
2016-07-05T19:21:12Z _z: i hope you dont end up hating lisp
2016-07-05T19:21:20Z fugue: I already do, haha
2016-07-05T19:21:20Z Bike: i sympathize
2016-07-05T19:21:39Z _z: fugue: hate the teaching method
2016-07-05T19:21:46Z fugue: Is anyone able to tell what i'm tryign to do with my paste?
2016-07-05T19:21:51Z Bike: yeah
2016-07-05T19:22:13Z fugue: the subset to find is '(f u n)
2016-07-05T19:22:21Z Grue`: kind of, it's push/reverse method except without reverse
2016-07-05T19:22:31Z Bike: try (defun find-fun (list) (loop for elem in list when (subsetp '(f u n) elem) collect elem))
2016-07-05T19:22:54Z fugue: Bike: no!
2016-07-05T19:22:59Z Bike: no?
2016-07-05T19:23:01Z fugue: that's just not fair
2016-07-05T19:23:09Z Bike: sorry?
2016-07-05T19:23:33Z fugue: Hah, I'm just kidding. I spend all this time scratching and pulling my hair...
2016-07-05T19:23:51Z Bike: i've been doing this for a while
2016-07-05T19:24:00Z Bike: anyway you might want to try it with the push collect method anyway
2016-07-05T19:24:29Z Bike: if you do, the first thing you need to fix is that you have two different bindings for 'x', one of which is supposed to be the argument and one of which is supposed to be the accumulator.
2016-07-05T19:24:31Z fugue: Yah that method looks like it does exactly what its supposed to
2016-07-05T19:24:43Z fugue: oh, I did not even realize I did that
2016-07-05T19:24:47Z Bike: this is one reason actually naming your variables is nice. we're not mathematicians, we can use more than one letter
2016-07-05T19:25:06Z _z: if you dont need it to be recursive: http://ix.io/10Hd
2016-07-05T19:25:23Z Bike: secondly you need to actually return the accumulated list. thirdly you need to reconsider making this a closure.
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2016-07-05T19:25:40Z Bike: if you work out those little things it should work fine.
2016-07-05T19:25:48Z fugue: Is there a gentle intro any of you guys recommend?
2016-07-05T19:25:55Z _z: lol
2016-07-05T19:26:08Z fugue: _z: by gentle intro I mean gentle
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2016-07-05T19:26:41Z pjb: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
2016-07-05T19:26:46Z _z: im only laughing because of the appropriately named book
2016-07-05T19:26:54Z fugue: oh lol
2016-07-05T19:27:00Z _z: see above
2016-07-05T19:27:31Z Bike: the other book is PCL, but the P is "practical" so it spends less time on this list shuffling nonsense
2016-07-05T19:28:16Z fugue: The good news is, I have now finished 7/8 exercises. The bad news is, I have 1 more to go :)
2016-07-05T19:28:26Z fugue: I'll see if I can snag that book up from barnes n nobles on my way home
2016-07-05T19:28:31Z fugue: If not, i'll have to grab an e-copy
2016-07-05T19:28:46Z Grue`: it's free to read
2016-07-05T19:28:54Z _z: gentle intro is slow if you're not absolutely new to programming
2016-07-05T19:29:17Z Bike: it's free online yeah
2016-07-05T19:29:22Z fugue: oh what do you know
2016-07-05T19:29:22Z fugue: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf
2016-07-05T19:29:39Z _z: yes that was linked above
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2016-07-05T19:30:32Z fugue: Nice thanks. Do uh, any of you guys write LISP for a living?
2016-07-05T19:31:33Z pjb: (defun find-fun (list) (loop for elem in list when (subsetp '(f u n) elem) collect elem)) (find-fun '((e n o u g h) (i n f i n i t u d e))) #| --> ((i n f i n i t u d e)) |#
2016-07-05T19:31:39Z pjb: fugue: is this what you want?
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2016-07-05T19:31:51Z _z: dont think anyone stylizes it like 'LISP' anymore, use 'Lisp' - a bit of a nitpick.
2016-07-05T19:31:57Z pjb: (we try to write lisp for a living, but customers don't always agree).
2016-07-05T19:32:20Z Grue`: i only write it for fun
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2016-07-05T19:33:29Z fugue: pjb: if it was (i n f u n i t u d e)
2016-07-05T19:33:48Z pjb: but (f u n) is a subset of (i n f i n i t u d e).
2016-07-05T19:33:58Z pjb: if you don't want a subset, why do you use subsetp?
2016-07-05T19:34:51Z fugue: that may be an issue
2016-07-05T19:34:55Z fugue: I guess I'm after sublist
2016-07-05T19:35:01Z pjb: above you've been suggested to use SEARCH instead.   (defun find-fun (list) (loop for elem in list when (search '(f u n) elem) collect elem))  (find-fun '((e n o u g h) (i n f i n i t u d e) (i n f u n i t u d e))) #| --> ((i n f u n i t u d e)) |#
2016-07-05T19:35:26Z pjb: fugue: a sublist is a list in a list. It's not a subsequence.  search searches for subsequences.
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2016-07-05T19:36:00Z pjb: fugue: the trick here is that in Common Lisp, lists are sequences.  strings are vectors, vectors are sequences. (also vectors are arrays).
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2016-07-05T19:36:47Z pjb: fugue: so you can do (search "fun" "infunitude") #| --> 2 |#   or (search #(f u n) #(f u n n y)) #| --> 0 |#  or (search '(f u n) '(o f u n n)) #| --> 1 |#
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2016-07-05T19:38:04Z pjb: fugue: you can also do (search "fun" '(#\i #\n #\f #\u #\n #\i #\t)) #| --> 2 |#
2016-07-05T19:38:36Z fugue: what is it returning there?
2016-07-05T19:39:26Z pjb: clhs search
2016-07-05T19:39:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_search.htm
2016-07-05T19:39:35Z pjb: the position of the found subsequence.
2016-07-05T19:39:49Z pjb: (search "fun" "not") #| --> nil |#  or nil.
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2016-07-05T20:38:31Z fugue: alright, I am converting a list in hex to decimal using this rule: multiply first digit by 16, add second digit, multiply result by 16 add third digit, and so on
2016-07-05T20:38:59Z Bike: the usual, sure
2016-07-05T20:39:16Z fugue: '(A 2 C) would be: (10*16 + 2)*16 + 12
2016-07-05T20:39:56Z fugue: I've got a hashtable set up to check if gethash elem exists, use its value,if not use the element
2016-07-05T20:40:10Z fugue: 	(loop for elem in list do (if (null (gethash elem hashmap))
2016-07-05T20:40:30Z fugue: kinda stuck on the actual arithmetic
2016-07-05T20:40:35Z fugue: (setf result (+ result ( * 16 elem)))
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2016-07-05T20:41:29Z Bike: that's backwards from what you explained in english. it's (setf result (+ (* 16 result) elem)), no? going from left to right.
2016-07-05T20:43:20Z fugue: Bike: can you explain to me how you broke that down and constructed it
2016-07-05T20:44:06Z Bike: um. it's literally just what you said. "multiply result by 16 [and then] add third digit"
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2016-07-05T21:01:52Z dim: (parse-integer (format nil "~{~a~}" '(A 2 C)) :radix 16) gives 2604
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2016-07-05T21:05:20Z dim: (loop with base = 16 with digits = '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F) for digit in '(A 2 C) for number = (position digit digits) then (+ (position digit digits) (* base number)) finally (return number)) gives the same answer
2016-07-05T21:06:05Z dim: can be spelled with digits = '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F) with base = (length digits)
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2016-07-05T21:09:34Z dim: and doing that a million times over in CCL takes  (0.256276 seconds) to run
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2016-07-05T21:20:21Z Polyphony: Are there any very popular alternatives to format in common lisp for simple user input/output or should I just put in the time to learn format?
2016-07-05T21:21:17Z Bike: you can just use the writing functions
2016-07-05T21:21:22Z pierpa: you don't need to learn at once the more exotheric parts of format
2016-07-05T21:22:07Z oGMo: bookmark the format page, remember ~A, ~S, ~X, ~B, and ~%, and you'll probably be good
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2016-07-05T21:30:36Z fugue: Question folks, I have a ton of functions that I want to write a wrapper and execute each with some test data, what's the best way I should do this?
2016-07-05T21:30:56Z fugue: Each function will get tested at least 5 times
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2016-07-05T21:32:34Z _death: (defun execute-with-some-test-data (functions test-data) (dolist (fn functions) (apply fn test-data)))
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2016-07-05T21:34:44Z fugue: _death: what if the test data differs from function to function
2016-07-05T21:35:01Z Bike: write out the calls?
2016-07-05T21:35:08Z _death: well, maybe you need to specify your problem better
2016-07-05T21:35:34Z fugue: _death: thats true as well
2016-07-05T21:35:44Z fugue: Bike: just a function with a big list of calls?
2016-07-05T21:36:15Z Bike: well, if the arguments for each call are different, you have to put all that data somewhere
2016-07-05T21:36:23Z Bike: could just be source text, could be a hash table, i dunno what you want
2016-07-05T21:36:48Z fugue: aye
2016-07-05T21:39:30Z fugue: Question on closures and testing, I have this: (let ((z 0)) (defun f (x) (setq z (max z x))))
2016-07-05T21:39:57Z fugue: (f 10) = 10 (f 20) = 20 (f 1) = 20, how am I to reset the value Z to 0?
2016-07-05T21:40:16Z _death: you can have another defun inside the let that does that
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2016-07-05T21:40:54Z _death: or, you could use another approach, say (defstruct state (z 0)) (defun f (x state) ...) ...
2016-07-05T21:42:30Z _death: if you still want conciseness when calling you could have say (defvar *state* (make-state)) (defun f (x &key (state *state*)) ...)
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2016-07-05T21:53:55Z fugue: Is there someway I can print a blank line? (print "\n") is a no go
2016-07-05T21:54:37Z Bike: you mean go to the next line? (terpri)
2016-07-05T21:55:15Z Bike: lisp syntax uses backslashes just for escaping, rather than escaping and also making different characters entirely
2016-07-05T21:56:04Z pierpa: also (fresh-line), (princ #\Newline), (format t "~%")
2016-07-05T21:56:25Z fugue: ooo fresh-line is nice
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2016-07-05T21:57:02Z pierpa: at least has a more discoverable name than TERPRI :)
2016-07-05T21:57:12Z fugue: yeah!
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2016-07-05T21:57:33Z pierpa: TERPRI = TERminate PRInt, btw
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2016-07-05T22:04:17Z fugue: thanks pierpa, Bike
2016-07-05T22:04:46Z _death: fresh-line is different..
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2016-07-05T22:20:43Z rumbler31: if you can somehow put the elements in the list into a string, you can simply read it in with the #x reader macro
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2016-07-05T22:21:42Z Bike: or just call parse integer, but somebody already said that.
2016-07-05T22:22:00Z rumbler31: <- is late to the party
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2016-07-05T22:23:12Z rumbler31: i'm working in javascript right now because I don't have a choice, and so much has changed since the last time I got into it that I have the sneaking suspicion that next time I go to upgrade it I'll have to rewrite it because it will have changed yet again
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2016-07-06T00:47:00Z Polyphony: anybody know how I could write the (prompt) function shown here? codepad.org/y5ydy1e0
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2016-07-06T00:47:39Z Polyphony: i've been fooling around with format on and off for what seems like forever...
2016-07-06T00:48:29Z Bike: link 404s
2016-07-06T00:49:38Z Polyphony: sorry, codepad.org/UCnBAUto
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2016-07-06T00:53:00Z Bike: ok, so... what do you want it to do, exactly?
2016-07-06T00:54:20Z Polyphony: Just prompt the user for some input and return what gets read in as a symbol
2016-07-06T00:54:59Z Bike: (format t string) (read)?
2016-07-06T00:55:17Z Bike: er, no. (write-string string) (fresh-line) (read), more like.
2016-07-06T00:55:30Z Polyphony: showing the other function isn't necessary, i just included it to show that I can't have it print "something something \n" then ask for input
2016-07-06T00:55:39Z Polyphony: I'll go try those out, thanks
2016-07-06T00:58:10Z Polyphony: is there a function similar to fresh-line that just flushes stdout without starting a new line?
2016-07-06T00:58:55Z sharkteeth: i think there's a (force-output) method
2016-07-06T00:59:02Z sharkteeth: i used it recently let me look it up
2016-07-06T00:59:14Z Bike: flushes any buffers, you mean? yeah, finish-output or force-output.
2016-07-06T00:59:21Z sharkteeth: (force-output t) ?
2016-07-06T00:59:45Z sharkteeth: i think i just used (force-output) with no arguments but i can't remember
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2016-07-06T01:00:17Z Polyphony: I've been trying to do this with format, which might be possible, but I wasn't seeing it lol
2016-07-06T01:00:33Z Bike: it is not in format.
2016-07-06T01:01:03Z Bike: format doesn't control streams that way. you can't use it to change where you are in a file and such either.
2016-07-06T01:03:09Z Polyphony: makes sense, I was just used to printf in C which has more control over newline characters, and the comma in python 2.x's print "text", syntax
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2016-07-06T01:04:17Z Polyphony: so I've just been searching around for something like (flush) or (flush-stream) to no avail.  Thanks for the help, works perfectly
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2016-07-06T01:05:32Z pierpa: what do you mean "control over newline character"?
2016-07-06T01:05:44Z pierpa: you have newlines with format too
2016-07-06T01:05:48Z pierpa: *you can have
2016-07-06T01:06:07Z Bike: printf can't do fflush either, unless i'm quite mistaken.
2016-07-06T01:06:23Z Polyphony: well, without explicitly entering '\n' it won't print a new line.  Format has plenty of control for sure
2016-07-06T01:06:29Z Bike: a newline in format is ~%
2016-07-06T01:06:56Z Polyphony: but I needed an anti-newline! it was printing one when I didn't want one
2016-07-06T01:07:11Z Bike: that shouldn't happen. do you have code?
2016-07-06T01:08:06Z pierpa: afair, format can't do flush. But can C's printf do it?
2016-07-06T01:09:27Z Polyphony: Bike: perhaps it was only in the repl, but I was using (format "~a: ~S" string (read)) firstly, which made sense when it didn't work, but after that I just started using the repl and using two seperate calls to format would always cause a fresh line in-between
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2016-07-06T01:10:28Z Polyphony: pierpa: no, I was looking for an fflush analog as well, couldn't find it though. I was searching for (force-output) basically
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2016-07-06T01:29:20Z jason_m: What compiler settings are used with a C-u C-c C-k from slime?
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2016-07-06T01:30:18Z jason_m: The article from Xach http://lispblog.xach.com/post/141544854858/forcing-higher-safety-levels-in-sbcl suggests (safety 3), but I wonder if it is really (debug 3).  The slime manual says "maximal debug settings" https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Compilation.html#Compilation
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2016-07-06T01:30:59Z jason_m: Compiling and loading a file with the C-u prefix does not seem to check type-specifiers on slot definitions
2016-07-06T01:31:05Z jason_m: (sbcl)
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2016-07-06T01:35:26Z Bike: dammit, why do people leave
2016-07-06T01:36:11Z Bike: jason_m: the docs say "maximal debug settings"
2016-07-06T01:37:06Z Bike: which seems to be borne out by the code
2016-07-06T01:37:52Z Bike: slime-compute-policy only returns debug and speed policies when there's a prefix
2016-07-06T01:38:13Z Bike: i don't know if sbcl ever checks type specifiers on slot definitions
2016-07-06T01:38:52Z jason_m: Bike: I got it to yesterday.  scymtym pointed out that sbcl will check with (safety 3)
2016-07-06T01:39:14Z Bike: oh. well, slime does debug 3
2016-07-06T01:39:41Z jason_m: That's what it was looking like to me, although Xach's article made it sounds like maybe it also did (safety 3)
2016-07-06T01:40:00Z Bike: he could be mistaken, or they could have changed it at some point. he also says it improves debug info
2016-07-06T01:40:06Z jason_m: right
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2016-07-06T01:41:13Z jason_m: From what I can tell, it also appears that the compiler settings when i compile and load the file are what matter, not necessarily the compiler settings when i type in code at the repl.  does that sound correct?
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2016-07-06T01:41:55Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean
2016-07-06T01:42:53Z jason_m: so for example, (proclaim '(optimize (safety 3))) at the repl, followed by a compile and load, followed by (proclaim '(optimize (safety 1))) at the repl, and then a (make-instance ...) that violates the type specifier still throws an error.  but it doesn't throw an error the other way around
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2016-07-06T01:44:44Z Bike: uh, hm. well probably the type restriction data is stored when the defclass is compiled, and make-instance doesn't do a runtime check of the optimize levels, which would be kind of bizarre anyway
2016-07-06T01:47:50Z jason_m: That's what I gather.  I'm trying to make sure I have a good understanding on when type checking will be enforced to make sure i can test my code well
2016-07-06T01:48:35Z jason_m: I would hate to violate my type specifiers somewhere and not notice, only to have it blow up under some different circumstances
2016-07-06T01:48:45Z Bike: indeed
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2016-07-06T02:27:15Z sharkteeth: is there ever a good reason to use eq vs eql?
2016-07-06T02:30:40Z brfennpocock: Generally, if you have to ask, then no. (but really, there are rare times it's useful for efficiency)
2016-07-06T02:31:02Z sharkteeth: haha fair enough
2016-07-06T02:31:11Z phadthai: it also makes it clear that it's a test for identity rather than equality
2016-07-06T02:31:48Z phadthai: i.e. the same object vs the same value
2016-07-06T02:32:17Z phadthai: (on objects, it's like comparing their memory pointers)
2016-07-06T02:33:12Z sharkteeth: that's kinda where i'm coming from...in lisp are object references treated like c-style pointers or will several different references always be treated as the same object
2016-07-06T02:33:48Z sharkteeth: when i was learning c/c++ for gamedev hacking i had a lot of trouble with passing pointers around
2016-07-06T02:34:41Z brfennpocock: Lisp's references are basically like Java-style references, if that helps. Same object is EQ to only itself; constants may be joined at compile-time; etc.
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2016-07-06T02:35:48Z phadthai: thanks brfennpocock, I wasn't too certain what to answer here; to my impression such references are like pointers, but more opaque
2016-07-06T02:35:56Z sharkteeth: i haven't touched java in a while so i'll pose a really simple case: if you pass a variable to a function in lisp and then return that variable, will the returned variable be eq to the original variable in the calling function?
2016-07-06T02:36:38Z phadthai: not if it's an "atom", but otherwise, unless explicitely copying or reinstancing, yes
2016-07-06T02:36:41Z sharkteeth: i.e. (let ((x 0)) (eq x (some-func x))) where some-func returns the variable its passed
2016-07-06T02:36:52Z Zhivago: You do not pass varibles in CL -- you pass values.
2016-07-06T02:37:18Z sharkteeth: is it possible to pass variables? do not or can not?
2016-07-06T02:37:23Z Zhivago: And as to if the returned value will EQ the passed value, that depends on the value and kind of value.
2016-07-06T02:37:26Z Bike: you can't. it doesn't make sense as a thing to do.
2016-07-06T02:37:42Z Zhivago: CL uses pass-by-value semantics.
2016-07-06T02:37:46Z sharkteeth: ok
2016-07-06T02:38:02Z sharkteeth: interesting
2016-07-06T02:38:15Z Bike: characters and numbers can be copied arbitrarily.
2016-07-06T02:38:15Z brfennpocock: Primitive atoms like 0 are different, but, (let ((x (cons 0 1))) (eq x (identity x))) is true
2016-07-06T02:38:16Z Zhivago: With macros, you can make forms that appear to have other semantics, but that is a syntactic guise.
2016-07-06T02:38:58Z phadthai: and there are interesting side effects, some implementation-specific: on ECL, a number which is smaller than a bignum will be EQ to another of the same value, but that's no longer true for bignums, where ECL however matches
2016-07-06T02:38:59Z Bike: actually, the clhs has the example of (let ((x 5)) (eq x x)) being undefined. woo.
2016-07-06T02:39:26Z phadthai: s/where ECL/where EQL/
2016-07-06T02:39:28Z Zhivago: One reason you should probably be talking about EQL instead of EQ. :)
2016-07-06T02:39:47Z phadthai: and for numbers, I agree with Zhivago
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2016-07-06T02:40:16Z sharkteeth: eql is is then
2016-07-06T02:40:22Z sharkteeth: *it is
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2016-07-06T02:40:52Z phadthai: and if it's numeric operations, there is also = of course
2016-07-06T02:40:57Z sharkteeth: right
2016-07-06T02:41:38Z sharkteeth: so if you need to pass large amounts of data many times between functions, i assume there's some way to do that efficiently? i'd imagine passing lots of values back and forth would be costly
2016-07-06T02:41:55Z sharkteeth: i haven't come across a pointer/reference system in my reading yet but someone mentioned it a minute ago
2016-07-06T02:41:59Z Zhivago: Generally you would use some kind of aggregate value, like an array.
2016-07-06T02:42:15Z Bike: well, the compiled code is probably going to involve passing memory locations instead of "arrays" and stuff.
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2016-07-06T02:42:32Z Zhivago: You can think of CL as passing object references by value.
2016-07-06T02:42:46Z Zhivago: Much like Java, in that respect.
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2016-07-06T02:43:12Z sharkteeth: thanks
2016-07-06T02:43:27Z jason_m: Zhivago: Doesn't pass by value imply copying?  Is that correct for CL?
2016-07-06T02:43:40Z jason_m: oh, "references by value"
2016-07-06T02:44:07Z jason_m: yeah, a copy of the reference, both referencing the same underlying object
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2016-07-06T02:45:49Z phadthai: sharkteeth: if performance is enough of a consideration to reduce the number of passed objects (in which case indeed a context object or the like can be passed around containing whatever needed), also consider that although &optional (and especially &key) are very useful, they too will incur more cost
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2016-07-06T02:46:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-06T02:46:57Z sharkteeth: padthai: noted, thanks. i'm looking at doing some financial modeling stuff down the road which kinda by its nature involves lots of data getting bounced around
2016-07-06T02:47:07Z sharkteeth: trying to look ahead a bit
2016-07-06T02:48:48Z phadthai: good night beach
2016-07-06T02:49:24Z Zhivago: Note that the underlying object may be encoded into the reference in many cases (e.g., numbers).
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2016-07-06T02:50:55Z sharkteeth: interesting
2016-07-06T02:52:04Z fugue: I've got this function that I need to call 5 times, however the result keep appending rather than reset and starting over: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319899
2016-07-06T02:52:08Z fugue: Can someone help me out here?
2016-07-06T02:52:54Z Zhivago: That's what you asked it to do.
2016-07-06T02:53:00Z beach: fugue: It is very impolite to submit badly-indented code for others to read.
2016-07-06T02:53:24Z Zhivago: Do you understand what a lexical closure is?
2016-07-06T02:53:36Z beach: fugue: Please load it into Emacs+SLIM, indent it properly and resubmit.
2016-07-06T02:53:58Z fugue: beach: is that available for osx
2016-07-06T02:54:08Z pillton: Yes.
2016-07-06T02:55:08Z beach: fugue: Common Lisp programmers understand code by relying on indentation.  If you ask people to read badly-indented code, you force them to count parentheses which will waste a lot of time.
2016-07-06T02:55:28Z fugue: beach: fair enough, let me install emacs + slime
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2016-07-06T02:56:03Z pillton: fugue: http://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started
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2016-07-06T03:03:07Z fugue: beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319899#1
2016-07-06T03:03:12Z fugue: does that look better?
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2016-07-06T03:03:39Z beach: fugue: Not perfect, but better.
2016-07-06T03:06:23Z fugue: I *must* use recursion to solve this problem, and that's why I chose the closure Zhivago
2016-07-06T03:06:36Z Bike: you can be recursive without using a closure
2016-07-06T03:06:52Z Bike: let me spoil this for you: bind the variable inside the function, rather than outside it
2016-07-06T03:09:38Z fugue: if I were to do that, wouldn't it clear the list every time the function is called recursively
2016-07-06T03:09:57Z beach: fugue: What is it that you are trying to accomplish?
2016-07-06T03:10:11Z Bike: yes. so you use a second argument or something.
2016-07-06T03:10:40Z Bike: third. whatever. or an auxiliary function since you have to dance around that too.
2016-07-06T03:10:59Z fugue: beach: I need to call that function 5 times with different prefix/dict args. Doing so keeps appending to X/result rather than starting out new for each run
2016-07-06T03:11:18Z Bike: because that's how closures work. they maintain a state between calls.
2016-07-06T03:11:19Z fugue: Bike: I wish, the method signatures are sorta given to us (or we're told how many args)
2016-07-06T03:11:34Z Bike: auxiliary then. labels.
2016-07-06T03:15:46Z jason_m: fugue: I'm not suggesting this is a particularly good solution, but note that you can define another function inside your let that can clear the result value.  you can call that clearing function between calls of lookup. Both lookup and the clear/reset function will have access to x.  I think another arg in the arg list or using labels are the best approaches.
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2016-07-06T03:16:31Z Bike: has your class seriously taught recursion without explaining how to use extra parameters
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2016-07-06T03:17:00Z fugue: We have 1 slide on recursion and it speaks nothing of extra params
2016-07-06T03:17:21Z Bike: you have one slide for what you've been doing homework for for two days?
2016-07-06T03:17:28Z jasom: the 99% of CS pedagogy is crap
2016-07-06T03:17:35Z fugue: Well the recursive bit, Bike
2016-07-06T03:17:43Z fugue: Thats why I have better luck on IRC
2016-07-06T03:18:02Z fugue: There is also Piazza, which is a UTA trying his best to answer every 24hrs
2016-07-06T03:18:18Z pillton: UTA?
2016-07-06T03:18:23Z Bike: either you're missing something or your professor is incompetent.
2016-07-06T03:18:27Z fugue: Undergrad Teaching Assistant
2016-07-06T03:18:44Z Bike: i mean, it's pointless for me to complain about your class, but christ.
2016-07-06T03:18:47Z fugue: Here is the exercise, verbatim
2016-07-06T03:19:12Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/submit
2016-07-06T03:19:19Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319901 *
2016-07-06T03:19:28Z jasom: fugue: I would suggest either using an auxiliary function or an optional third argument
2016-07-06T03:19:43Z Bike: well, it just says it takes those two arguments, not that it doesn't take more.
2016-07-06T03:20:08Z fugue: jasom: how would you go about 'clearing' x?
2016-07-06T03:20:19Z fugue: Bike: funny you say that, that exact question was asked on Piazza
2016-07-06T03:20:31Z jasom: fugue: I'll show you an example with fibonacci
2016-07-06T03:20:33Z Bike: what, and the TA told you you couldn't have more arguments?
2016-07-06T03:20:37Z jasom: the classic simple recusive function
2016-07-06T03:20:53Z fugue: Bike: yup.
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2016-07-06T03:21:02Z fugue: He even suggested: ' As long as I can call one function and it gets done, it's fine. '
2016-07-06T03:21:03Z Bike: did you ask why?
2016-07-06T03:21:10Z pillton: fugue: Do you have a slide on labels?
2016-07-06T03:21:15Z fugue: checking
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2016-07-06T03:21:29Z Bike: i guess it doesn't matter. labels, auxiliary function.
2016-07-06T03:21:31Z fugue: pillton: not only do we not have a slide on labels, there is no mention of labels anywhere
2016-07-06T03:21:37Z pillton: Nice.
2016-07-06T03:21:53Z jason_m: then you'll blow away the grader :)
2016-07-06T03:21:54Z fugue: This course cost me $1500 that I pay out of my pocket
2016-07-06T03:21:58Z Bike: you could clear it with something like (defun clear () (setf x nil)), but doing that would be an absurd solution and more annoying for your TA.
2016-07-06T03:21:59Z fugue: haha
2016-07-06T03:22:49Z fugue: And we're 'done' with LISP,  moving onto intelligent agents...
2016-07-06T03:24:25Z jasom: fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319902
2016-07-06T03:24:57Z jasom: fib1 is with optional arguments, fib2 is with an auxilliary function.
2016-07-06T03:25:00Z Bike: yes, there's also the question of why a class in AI requires you learn a programming language
2016-07-06T03:25:11Z jasom: oops, I typoed the recursive call in fib2
2016-07-06T03:25:16Z jasom: (should be a call to fib2)
2016-07-06T03:25:25Z Bike: as a thinking agent myself i of course deal with dictionaries of exploded symbols all the time
2016-07-06T03:25:47Z jasom: (should be a call to fib2-helper)
2016-07-06T03:26:03Z pillton: Bike: What explosive do you use for your symbols?
2016-07-06T03:26:14Z Bike: anfo. nice and cheap
2016-07-06T03:26:16Z beach: fugue: Why on earth would you pay for a course out of your pocket?
2016-07-06T03:26:32Z Bike: well, it beats student loans.
2016-07-06T03:26:38Z jasom: fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319902#1 <-- fixed
2016-07-06T03:26:43Z fugue: beach: because America
2016-07-06T03:26:49Z beach: Move!
2016-07-06T03:26:53Z fugue: jasom: thanks!
2016-07-06T03:27:17Z fugue: move where? we're about to elect the greatest US president ever
2016-07-06T03:27:24Z fugue: I can't miss out on that!
2016-07-06T03:27:37Z beach: My wife votes at the consulate.
2016-07-06T03:28:13Z Bike: well you'd have to convince some foreign government that it's worth their while to let you learn there
2016-07-06T03:28:17Z jasom: beach: tottally OT, but how badly is she screwed by the bizarre tax policy of the US for citizens abroad?
2016-07-06T03:28:44Z pillton: jasom: I wondered that too.
2016-07-06T03:29:11Z fugue: I also don't qualify for any financial assistance, so I pay my wife's tuition too
2016-07-06T03:29:20Z fugue: An added bonus
2016-07-06T03:29:25Z beach: jasom: Not a problem, other than the work of filing in the US in addition to here.  There is a bi-lateral agreement that prevents double taxation.
2016-07-06T03:30:00Z jasom: ouch; and tuition has gone *way* up since I went to school.  I spent ~80k and graduated 11 years ago.  These days it would be more like $150k at the same school
2016-07-06T03:32:19Z jasom: Tuition basically totalled the same as my first year's salary  after I graduated, which isn't too bad, and I was out-of-state.  I had friends who covered 80% of their total costs (including room & board) just working full-time in the summer.
2016-07-06T03:32:48Z jasom: $1500 was one semester's tuition in-state at the time
2016-07-06T03:34:46Z fugue: That's about 1 3-credit course now
2016-07-06T03:35:17Z jasom: fugue: where are you? GMU?
2016-07-06T03:35:21Z fugue: Yeah
2016-07-06T03:35:26Z fugue: How'd you know?
2016-07-06T03:35:27Z Bike: yeah i think that's around the order of magnitude of what i paid to take a summer class a few years back
2016-07-06T03:35:39Z jasom: fugue: saw a DC area fios, and you were paying by the credit-hour
2016-07-06T03:35:46Z fugue: Haha
2016-07-06T03:35:56Z jasom grew up in Reston, VA
2016-07-06T03:36:26Z fugue: Oh nice. Yeah unfortunately (respectfully) I do not care about AI nor LISP
2016-07-06T03:36:44Z fugue: I just need to graduate, it's been 11 years
2016-07-06T03:36:55Z fugue: After the summer course, I'll have 2 more courses remaining
2016-07-06T03:37:04Z fugue: summer semester*
2016-07-06T03:37:12Z Bike: we all had bullshit classes, just... don't take this as representative of what programmers actually do, i guess
2016-07-06T03:37:38Z fugue: For sure. And the way its taught over the summer is... you know.
2016-07-06T03:37:56Z fugue: I've been working in the field for some time now ~8 years
2016-07-06T03:38:02Z fugue: Taking classes part time :)
2016-07-06T03:38:16Z Bike: see, i didn't think summer was usually that bad. i took med student's bane and it was still pretty great
2016-07-06T03:38:43Z sharkteeth: med student's bane? a&p?
2016-07-06T03:38:56Z Bike: organic chemistry
2016-07-06T03:39:02Z jasom: Organich chem
2016-07-06T03:39:20Z sharkteeth: oh i was thinking med school not undergrad...it's late
2016-07-06T03:39:26Z sharkteeth: i did not enjoy orgo 1 or 2
2016-07-06T03:39:31Z fugue: Oh, we have a little more in common. My first degree was in Microbiology with a Minor in Chemistry
2016-07-06T03:39:34Z fugue: Go figure
2016-07-06T03:39:49Z jasom: At Purdue you were more likely to get someone interested in teaching if you took a summer class; that didn't always translate to actually better at teaching though.
2016-07-06T03:39:53Z Bike: i liked orgo 1. i mean, the tests were miserable honestly, but it was interesting
2016-07-06T03:39:59Z Bike: miserable obviously*
2016-07-06T03:40:02Z sharkteeth: industrial engineering undergrad that decided to apply to med school a little late...currently working as a paramedic
2016-07-06T03:40:17Z jason_m: fugue: Since you're moving on from lisp after this lesson, recursion is great and all, but common lisp also has a powerful loop construct.  here's what a non-recursive solution might look like: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319905  recursion because-its-good-for-you gets annoying.
2016-07-06T03:40:18Z fugue: sharkteeth: which city?
2016-07-06T03:40:18Z sharkteeth: my coursework over the years has been all over the place to say the least
2016-07-06T03:40:36Z sharkteeth: little shithole just south of Detroit called Taylor is where I work
2016-07-06T03:41:09Z sharkteeth: imagine Detroit but with white people in trailers doing heroin shooting each other instead of black folks shooting each other in project blocks
2016-07-06T03:41:36Z fugue: Oh man
2016-07-06T03:42:18Z fugue: jason_m: that looks like something I would have done if there wasn't a recursion restriction
2016-07-06T03:42:35Z fugue: maybe :]
2016-07-06T03:43:23Z jasom: yeah, recursion before it's good for you is a pain; particularly when there are so many problems that are simpler to implement with recursion than iteration (e.g. tree walking)
2016-07-06T03:43:57Z Zhivago: It's not recursion that's significant -- it is backtracking.
2016-07-06T03:45:00Z jasom: Zhivago: problems that require backtracking are very amenable to recursive implememntations; problems that don't tend to be less clear when implemented recursively
2016-07-06T03:48:16Z jasom: Zhivago: IIRC you and I disagree on whether or not to discuss the call-stack when comparing recursion and iteration.  I like it because you can show that you always have a stack when doing backtracking regardless of if you are using iteration or recursion, and you never need a stack when not doing backtracking, regardless of if you are using iteration or recursion.
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2016-07-06T03:54:01Z jason_m: Oh I feel silly, we missed perhaps a more obvious recursive solution, although one that cannot be tail-call optimized
2016-07-06T03:54:05Z fugue: Appreciate all the help fellas.
2016-07-06T03:54:43Z fugue: looks like HW1 is complete, woop.
2016-07-06T03:54:56Z Bike: praise be
2016-07-06T03:55:10Z fugue: It'll all be over soon, Bike
2016-07-06T03:55:15Z fugue: July 29th :)
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2016-07-06T03:56:35Z jason_m: I annotated my paste with another recursive approach, one that does not use another arg, labels, or aux function.
2016-07-06T03:59:49Z Zhivago: jasom: The critical insight is that recursion and iteration are the same thing with and without backtracking. So it's the support for and use of backtracking that's important.
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2016-07-06T04:06:14Z jasom: well good night all
2016-07-06T04:06:59Z fugue: goodnight. thanks again jasom
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2016-07-06T04:12:49Z sharkteeth: managed to completely crash the REPL for the first time
2016-07-06T04:12:54Z sharkteeth: i feel like this is some sort of strange milestone
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2016-07-06T04:20:34Z sharkteeth: if i have a simple function that iterates over a list (via dolist) and performs an operation on each element after a "collect," what's the best way to access the collected list?
2016-07-06T04:21:08Z Zhivago: dolist doesn't have a collect.
2016-07-06T04:21:09Z sharkteeth: for example i have a function that takes a list like so ("1" "0" "0" "0") and performs (parse-integer) on each element
2016-07-06T04:21:12Z sharkteeth: oh
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2016-07-06T04:21:28Z Zhivago: Perhap you want mapcar?
2016-07-06T04:21:32Z sharkteeth: yes
2016-07-06T04:21:34Z sharkteeth: i think i do
2016-07-06T04:21:41Z Zhivago: Probably you want to stop making stuff up, also.
2016-07-06T04:22:19Z sharkteeth: i'm trying to learn and i didn't get any errors so i assumed it was legal
2016-07-06T04:22:28Z sharkteeth: don't need to be rude
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2016-07-06T04:25:05Z beach: sharkteeth: Do you need to access the collected list during the iteration, or just after the loop has finished?
2016-07-06T04:25:14Z sharkteeth: just when it's done
2016-07-06T04:25:42Z beach: OK, then MAPCAR or LOOP depending on how complicated the operation is on each element.
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2016-07-06T04:26:14Z sharkteeth: i'll try both out, thanks
2016-07-06T04:31:09Z beach: I find that, if I already have a function to apply to each argument, then I tend to use MAPCAR, but if I would have to create an anonymous function in order to use MAPCAR, I often prefer LOOP.
2016-07-06T04:32:31Z beach: So (mapcar #'plusp list) but (loop for element in list collect (> element 1)).
2016-07-06T04:37:34Z sharkteeth: i ended up using loop but that's mostly because i don't fully understand mapcar yet
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2016-07-06T04:38:59Z Bike: (mapcar #'f l) is equivalent to (loop for e in l collect (f l)) in all the ways i remember
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2016-07-06T07:40:37Z knobo1: (loop for e in l collect (f e))
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2016-07-06T08:27:09Z knobo1: Can I do global install of lisp implementations with roswell?
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2016-07-06T08:29:51Z fe[nl]ix: knobo1: why would you want that ?
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2016-07-06T09:27:13Z knobo1: fe[nl]ix: because then I don't have to upgrade installation individualy, and to save n*400Mb data.
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2016-07-06T09:28:15Z knobo1: I still have 29Gb free, so saving 400Mb is probably not that important.
2016-07-06T09:33:57Z knobo1: Can I at least have a global repository of local-projects?
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2016-07-06T09:55:05Z Baggers: hey folks, this question is a bit nasty so sorry about that. I would like to be able to use slime's edit-definition and echo arglist on things that are not real lisp functions/methods etc. The rational is this: I have a defun-g macro that is used to define a 'gpu function' it defines the function in my lisp->glsl compiler so it can be used in gpucode. Being able to get arglists and jump to definition would go a long
2016-07-06T09:55:05Z Baggers:  way to making these gpu functions feel more like regular lisp functions. My macro could (and until recently did) emit a dummy lisp defun that meant this worked (and it was great), however I have since added support for glsl-like non-congruent lambda lists, which means I cant emit any lisp dummy version. My current approach is to provide a new implementation of swank's find-definitions & arglist interface which quer
2016-07-06T09:55:05Z Baggers: ies my compiler for definitions before just calling the original versions. This works but I'd love something a little less 'monkey patch'. Any ideas appreciated
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2016-07-06T11:22:58Z dxtr: What's the most appropriate way to get the last character of a string?
2016-07-06T11:23:08Z dxtr: Reversing it and returning the first element? Doesn't sound too efficient
2016-07-06T11:23:48Z dxtr: Oh, there's (position)
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2016-07-06T11:24:22Z phadthai: if it has a fill pointer or if the string is the same size as the array, knowing the end is fast, and then indexing to the character should also be fast
2016-07-06T11:24:38Z phadthai: length should use the fill pointer or limit
2016-07-06T11:24:43Z peterh: string is basically an array (vector), so what's the best way to get the last element in an array
2016-07-06T11:25:51Z phadthai: and for indexing you have several choices, including aref
2016-07-06T11:26:03Z Baggers: dxtr: (aref str (1- (length str))) ?
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2016-07-06T11:26:38Z Baggers: fails for empty string, but in that case there is no last element to get
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2016-07-06T11:27:40Z dxtr: Well that's just an extra thing to check for. No biggie :p
2016-07-06T11:28:11Z phadthai: (also see char, schar, svref, elt)
2016-07-06T11:28:27Z Baggers: dxtr: also (alexandria:last-elt str)
2016-07-06T11:28:43Z dxtr: Why did I not know about char? Hmm
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2016-07-06T11:28:52Z dxtr: It makes a lot of sense
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2016-07-06T11:47:28Z Baggers: Is the downside of sbcl internal code walker only that it is implementation specific, or does it (like the portable expanders/walkers) have issues with certain combinations of macros
2016-07-06T11:47:30Z Baggers: ?
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2016-07-06T13:03:11Z stilda: I read Let Over Lambda and it I am very excited about it. But I am wondering, how often in real life you use that advanced stuff (like anafors, pandoric macros, dlambdas, etc)? Is it often you end up with such smart designs/structures?
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2016-07-06T13:05:51Z jackdaniel: stilda: rarely
2016-07-06T13:06:09Z jackdaniel: anaphoras get pretty handy at times
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2016-07-06T13:06:50Z jason_m: stilda: I enjoyed that book too, it certainly made me think about what was possible, but I still prefer to reach for CLOS instead of the closures he advocates for, and I don't find myself doing a lot of compile-time programming yet.
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2016-07-06T13:07:29Z jackdaniel: it's a stuff (in my opinion) which you should use only when you actually need to, but there aren't many use-cases for them
2016-07-06T13:07:38Z jason_m: what's easier to read and interact with at the repl - a dlambda or a simple class with named slots and accessors?
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2016-07-06T13:09:59Z jason_m: (although we can still be smug about the fact that if common lisp didn't give us CLOS, it has all the right expressiveness to allows us to implement it ourselves)
2016-07-06T13:11:35Z moore33: jason_m: Almost.
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2016-07-06T13:16:49Z stilda: Is same sort of exclusiveness applicable to technics from "On Lisp"?
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2016-07-06T13:20:31Z jason_m: I found the stuff in on lisp a little more applicable.  LoL uses several utilities from on lisp.  I think a major idea of on lisp is "bottom up programming", while LoL maybe loses focus and ends up being more about "look at these crazy things we can do!"
2016-07-06T13:24:28Z varjag: stilda: i try to stick to "conventional" cl forms, leaving macros for domain specific stuff
2016-07-06T13:25:46Z varjag: makes it easier on eyes of potential other programmers using it
2016-07-06T13:25:53Z jackdaniel: stilda: while on lisp teaches you a lot of useful things which are good to know when you use lisp, let over lambda learns you stuff beyond (it's a lot of fun though) which you probably doesn't have to know
2016-07-06T13:26:24Z jackdaniel: like the first is for enlightenment while the second is for amusement
2016-07-06T13:26:48Z varjag: i stopped reading LoL right at vi advocacy
2016-07-06T13:26:50Z varjag: :p
2016-07-06T13:28:28Z varjag: (seriously it's a good book though, just didn't have time to read thoroughly)
2016-07-06T13:29:25Z warweasle: wow, I'm still connected
2016-07-06T13:30:01Z warweasle: Has there been any new work on a logic based library? Like Gambol.
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2016-07-06T13:35:23Z warweasle: I might have a paying gig where I can use it. Or something like prolog.
2016-07-06T13:35:53Z Xach: knowledgeworks is prologgy
2016-07-06T13:35:55Z Xach: and ops5-y
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2016-07-06T13:40:06Z warweasle: Xach: Thanks!
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2016-07-06T13:43:05Z Xach: warweasle: not free, but a nice pro tool.
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2016-07-06T13:44:33Z sjl: is there a common naming convention for function/macro pairs that do the sameish things?
2016-07-06T13:44:44Z warweasle: Xach: If I can get funding, then not a problem. I can use the personal edition to make a prototype.
2016-07-06T13:44:44Z dlowe: add a * to the end
2016-07-06T13:44:48Z dlowe: sjl: ^
2016-07-06T13:44:55Z jackdaniel: sjl: with-* and invoke-*
2016-07-06T13:44:56Z dlowe: like defun and defun *
2016-07-06T13:45:10Z dlowe: oh, I misunderstood
2016-07-06T13:45:13Z sjl: e.g. I have a (query ...) for my prolog library that lets you run queries, but I'd also like to have a function version to handle queries built at runtime
2016-07-06T13:45:14Z Xach: warweasle: I don't think it's part of the personal edition, but you could ask them to provide a short-term license for prototyping.
2016-07-06T13:45:34Z sjl: so like (query-fn '(likes sally ?who)) == (query (likes sally ?who))
2016-07-06T13:45:51Z warweasle: Xach: Gambol or PIAP might be enough to start off.
2016-07-06T13:45:52Z jackdaniel: sjl: mcclim has that convention: (invoke-bah …) is a function, while (with-bah …) is a macro
2016-07-06T13:45:54Z sjl: jackdaniel: hm, invoke- seems okay
2016-07-06T13:46:04Z warweasle: sjl: Yes, exactly.
2016-07-06T13:46:24Z dlowe: sjl: I wouldn't make a macro specifically to avoid quoting, but that's a personal preference
2016-07-06T13:48:09Z sjl: dlowe: yeah, it does read really cleanly when you can use it though
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2016-07-06T15:42:53Z jgo: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-07-06T15:46:32Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-07-06T15:46:52Z beach: phoe_krk: Are you around?
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2016-07-06T17:47:24Z Xach: I am around.
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2016-07-06T17:54:50Z beach: Good to know.
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2016-07-06T19:49:52Z oGMo: hrm
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2016-07-06T19:50:55Z oGMo: i wonder how to introduce more unrealism ("abstractism"?)
2016-07-06T19:51:50Z oGMo: like in zelda 1, you blow open a cave in a rock wall and there's some old guy/lady selling stuff in a shop
2016-07-06T19:52:05Z oGMo: but you don't stop to think "wow this is totally unrealistic"
2016-07-06T19:52:34Z oGMo: more unrealism seems like nothing but a positive
2016-07-06T19:54:44Z oGMo: but, is this purely a graphical thing? do graphics need to be more abstract for the world design to be such?
2016-07-06T19:55:04Z oGMo: i can't think of any counterexamples
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2016-07-06T20:03:53Z oGMo: err
2016-07-06T20:03:56Z oGMo: wow wrong channel
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2016-07-06T20:06:20Z emaczen: I'm having trouble getting the right escaped output with cl-who.
2016-07-06T20:06:39Z emaczen: Here is my example: (with-html-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (:sup "\u2212"))
2016-07-06T20:06:57Z emaczen: it won't output the "\"
2016-07-06T20:09:09Z Xach: emaczen: if you want a \ to be included in a string, you have to escape it with \.
2016-07-06T20:09:24Z Xach: emaczen: so if you want the string's first character to be \, you have to do "\\u2212"
2016-07-06T20:09:47Z Xach: the only two characters that require escaping are \ and ".
2016-07-06T20:09:58Z emaczen: Xach: When I do that it outputs: "<sup>\\u2212</sup>"
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2016-07-06T20:10:21Z Xach: emaczen: yes, that is because lisp has printed it readably.
2016-07-06T20:10:35Z Xach: that is, it will read back in with an escaped \ in it. but there is only one \ in the string's data.
2016-07-06T20:10:44Z Xach: see, for example, (length "\\")
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2016-07-06T21:44:40Z phoe_krk: Are only two characters escaped within Lisp strings?
2016-07-06T21:44:46Z phoe_krk: #\\ and #\"?
2016-07-06T21:45:36Z rszeno: kind of "double escaped"
2016-07-06T21:45:40Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2016-07-06T21:47:19Z rszeno: both '\' and '"' are a kind of separators
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2016-07-06T22:08:49Z totimkopf: is it a bad idea to learn several different types of Lisps at once? I am learning CL and Clojure at the same time
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2016-07-06T22:09:57Z Bike: why would it be a bad idea? it's not too hard to tell them apart
2016-07-06T22:10:20Z rszeno: if is not confusing what lisp is "clear"
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2016-07-06T22:11:38Z totimkopf: okay :)
2016-07-06T22:12:14Z totimkopf: I should also learn emacs lisp
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2016-07-06T22:38:00Z dxtr: I found that elisp comes naturally if you start using emacs on a daily basis :P
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2016-07-06T23:17:31Z emaczen: Xach: Is there any way I can force lisp to only print one "\"?
2016-07-06T23:18:47Z Bike: yeah, don't print it readably
2016-07-06T23:18:59Z emaczen: Bike: How do I do that?
2016-07-06T23:19:50Z pierpa: with PRINC
2016-07-06T23:19:56Z Bike: er... maybe it's escape
2016-07-06T23:20:12Z Bike: princ should work
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2016-07-06T23:20:51Z emaczen: Bike: I tried that and it still prints two "\"
2016-07-06T23:21:04Z Bike: tried what, like (princ "\\a")?
2016-07-06T23:21:37Z emaczen: Oh wait, It does print it how I wanted, and it returns the object
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2016-07-06T23:24:05Z emaczen: How do I collect the printed representation though?
2016-07-06T23:24:53Z Bike: collect?
2016-07-06T23:25:03Z Bike: it's printed. that's what those functions do, they print.
2016-07-06T23:25:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: emaczen: (format muh-stream "some string")
2016-07-06T23:25:15Z Bike: they just return the same object you passed in.
2016-07-06T23:25:47Z Bike: and "\\a" is read in as, as xach mentioned, a string consisting of a backslash followed by an a
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2016-07-07T00:01:25Z emaczen: Okay, I am trying to convert a Lisp unicode string \u2212 (this is the minus sign) into a JS string \u2212
2016-07-07T00:01:48Z emaczen: I am doing this with parenscript, and the final output is always \\u2212
2016-07-07T00:01:53Z emaczen: If it is \u2212 -- then it works
2016-07-07T00:02:01Z Zhivago: Perhaps you're doing it wrong?
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2016-07-07T00:02:59Z Zhivago: It sounds like you're converting a string of one character into a string of six characters.
2016-07-07T00:04:02Z rszeno: or maybe strings with 6 to 7 chars
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2016-07-07T00:04:45Z Zhivago: Indeed.
2016-07-07T00:04:58Z Zhivago: Understanding what \u2212 represents is important.
2016-07-07T00:04:59Z emaczen: huh?
2016-07-07T00:05:24Z Bike: what do you mean by "the final output"?
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2016-07-07T00:06:12Z emaczen: (ps:who-ps-html ...) => (stringify ... html-tags ...)
2016-07-07T00:06:31Z emaczen: The final output is these stringify forms which then will get written to a JS file
2016-07-07T00:06:44Z emaczen: I just can't seem to get anything other than \\u2212 or u2212
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2016-07-07T00:07:12Z Bike: strings in lisp forms are going to be printed like \\u, probably
2016-07-07T00:07:34Z emaczen: Bike: Yeah the printed representation is what gets written to the JS file
2016-07-07T00:07:54Z Bike: how are you writing to the js file?
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2016-07-07T00:09:50Z emaczen: I concatenate all forms that I want and then do a (with-open-file (f)... (write-string ...) f)
2016-07-07T00:10:15Z Zhivago: Do you read them as unicode in lisp?
2016-07-07T00:10:18Z Bike: write-string on the string you get from "stringify"?
2016-07-07T00:11:43Z emaczen: Not the same stringify but another strinifiy
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2016-07-07T00:12:22Z emaczen: Zhivago: What do you mean?
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2016-07-07T00:13:44Z rszeno it not a string but a unicode code point
2016-07-07T00:14:55Z Bike: (princ (ps:who-ps-html (:a :href "https://example.com" "\\u2212"))) prints <A HREF="https://example.com">\u2212</A>
2016-07-07T00:15:22Z Bike: is that incorrect?
2016-07-07T00:15:53Z emaczen: You are right, but I'm not not printing to a file right?
2016-07-07T00:16:05Z Bike: not not?
2016-07-07T00:16:22Z emaczen: oops, one not
2016-07-07T00:16:28Z Bike: (write-string (ps:who-ps-html ...)) has the same output.
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2016-07-07T00:17:45Z emaczen: Bike: does it write the printed output to the stream?
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2016-07-07T00:18:04Z Bike: yeah? that's what writing is. writing to the stream.
2016-07-07T00:18:42Z Zhivago: emaczen: How many characters are there in the string "\u2212" when you construct it?
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2016-07-07T00:19:52Z emaczen: Wait, I really got something screwed up here...
2016-07-07T00:20:52Z emaczen: I'm writing a string representation of a parentscript macro which expands to the parenscript code to create a JS object and then writing that to a file
2016-07-07T00:21:11Z emaczen: Idk, it is too complicated, and a lot of terrible code
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2016-07-07T00:21:38Z emaczen: I just need to hack something and never look back
2016-07-07T00:21:50Z Zhivago: What does that have to do with \u2212?
2016-07-07T00:22:22Z emaczen: Those are contained in the values of the JS object
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2016-07-07T00:27:18Z Zhivago: Try to ensure that the string representing the JS code is a unicode string.
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2016-07-07T00:31:56Z rszeno: Zhivago is a '-', minus sign
2016-07-07T00:34:14Z rszeno probably is better to be a &minus; as html
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2016-07-07T01:24:16Z porky11: hi
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2016-07-07T01:25:57Z Xach: hello porky11
2016-07-07T01:26:17Z Xach: porky11: I had questions on your issues on github, but you never replied. Why is that?
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2016-07-07T01:26:58Z porky11: I'm not often active on github
2016-07-07T01:27:31Z Xach: Ok. I can't add your projects if you don't respond to discussion.
2016-07-07T01:27:46Z porky11: ok
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2016-07-07T01:34:51Z porky11: is it possible to make overloadable functions using the environment-extensions from cltl2?
2016-07-07T01:35:13Z Xach: porky11: What do you mean by overloadable?
2016-07-07T01:35:44Z porky11: selecting the function at compiletime
2016-07-07T01:37:47Z Xach: I don't know, sorry. I haven't used any cltl2 support in any implementation I use.
2016-07-07T01:37:53Z Bike: you can do some stuff with compiler macros.
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2016-07-07T01:43:13Z porky11: night
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2016-07-07T01:44:46Z rszeno: what had happend with http://lispworks.com ?
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2016-07-07T01:45:10Z Xach: rszeno: nothing?
2016-07-07T01:45:42Z rszeno: ok, then i have a dns problem
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2016-07-07T01:47:03Z rszeno: thank you Xach
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2016-07-07T01:47:13Z Xach: no  problem
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2016-07-07T02:06:38Z rszeno internet is a HUGE SHIT now
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2016-07-07T02:26:33Z rszeno ...and not only...
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2016-07-07T02:34:27Z rszeno out of memory. Great!!!
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2016-07-07T02:43:54Z Zhivago: Download some more.
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2016-07-07T04:01:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-07T04:02:31Z Oladon: Evening, beach :)
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2016-07-07T07:52:25Z loke`: Hello Lisp!
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2016-07-07T08:14:32Z drmeister: Hi everybody.
2016-07-07T08:15:33Z loke`: Hello drmeister
2016-07-07T08:15:42Z loke`: drmeister: We're in the same timezone now :-)
2016-07-07T08:15:47Z drmeister: I've been working on link time optimization in Clasp - I have it working now.  It required rewriting the entire build system (I used 'waf') because it requires everything compile to bitcode rather than object files.
2016-07-07T08:15:56Z drmeister: Are we?  Where are you?
2016-07-07T08:16:06Z drmeister: I'm in Vancouver - as you apparently know.
2016-07-07T08:16:09Z loke`: drmeister: Paris, waiting for a flight to Stockholm
2016-07-07T08:16:15Z loke`: drmeister: I did not know that :-)
2016-07-07T08:16:29Z Bike: damn, they widened some timezones when i wasn't looking
2016-07-07T08:17:13Z drmeister: I'm going to be in London in a couple of weeks... closer.
2016-07-07T08:17:25Z loke`: drmeister: I will be here less than one week
2016-07-07T08:17:30Z loke`: Then back home again.
2016-07-07T08:17:36Z loke`: drmeister: When are you coming to Singapore?
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2016-07-07T08:17:48Z drmeister: I don't know.
2016-07-07T08:17:58Z drmeister: Someone would have to invite me.
2016-07-07T08:18:10Z loke`: drmeister: I'm inviting you
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2016-07-07T08:18:34Z drmeister: To give a talk would be best.
2016-07-07T08:18:48Z loke`: drmeister: Ah, that I'm not able to do at the moment
2016-07-07T08:19:12Z drmeister: I got a large grant yesterday  $1.5M for three years - developing catalysts to detoxify nerve agents.
2016-07-07T08:19:47Z drmeister: Cando/Clasp are a crucial element of that research.
2016-07-07T08:21:14Z drmeister: I can't budget programmers with that - but I will apply for another one in October that will be just to hire programmers.
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2016-07-07T08:22:21Z drmeister: I don't usually talk about money but I've bitched enough about lack of funding - I thought I'd mention it.
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2016-07-07T08:23:18Z loke`: drmeister: That's pretty cool!
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2016-07-07T08:23:37Z drmeister: Clasp now generates stand alone executables.  I haven't yet harnessed the tree-shaking capabilities of llvm based link time optimization - so they are pretty big.
2016-07-07T08:25:09Z drmeister: Alas, it slows down the build somewhat - because there is so much more compilation and inlining going on.   I've given up on speeding up the build process for now.  I'm going for speed of the final system.
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2016-07-07T09:03:47Z dim: drmeister: wow nice, did you try building binaries with some systems already? you might want to try with pgloader, it has quite some dependencies and it's on the complex side, so would be a good stress test ;-)
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2016-07-07T11:14:47Z Xach: drmeister: nice
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2016-07-07T12:41:58Z dim: so, when a system gets quite complex, would you contemplate splitting it into several sub-systems with asd dependencies?
2016-07-07T12:43:49Z dim: I'm thinking about pgloader which I am refactoring, and that operation is looking like a worm hole right now (76 files changed, 6039 insertions(+), 4344 deletions(-))
2016-07-07T12:44:26Z dim: I'm reviewing the package definitions and dependencies, and I wonder about the systems now, too
2016-07-07T12:44:42Z Grue``: is one expected to load the whole system in order to work with it? or one usually needs only a part of the system? that would be my criterion
2016-07-07T12:44:57Z dim: e.g. when using Quicklisp, can I have several .asd files in sub-directories?
2016-07-07T12:45:09Z dim: whole system, Grue``
2016-07-07T12:45:22Z igam`: Yes, if it's logical, split out a system into subsystems.
2016-07-07T12:45:23Z Xach: dim: you can have several system files in subdirectories
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2016-07-07T12:45:24Z Grue``: then what's the use of separate subsystems
2016-07-07T12:45:32Z dim: part of the system would only happen to add a new “driver” to it
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2016-07-07T12:46:06Z dim: Grue``: clean code dependencies and make them explicit, allow me to re-load a single system at a time when refactoring / editing code
2016-07-07T12:46:19Z dim: can't decide if that's a strong enough argument in favor of splitting
2016-07-07T12:46:34Z igam`: Actually you can define overlaping systems: systems that would load common files, but you would load one system or another depending on what you want to test or to build.
2016-07-07T12:46:46Z igam`: But this is something else.
2016-07-07T12:46:53Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/pgloader.asd and https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/package.lisp to get an idea
2016-07-07T12:47:04Z dim: I think it's quite a mess now
2016-07-07T12:47:06Z igam`: Partitionning a big system into subsystems along logical divisions is natural.
2016-07-07T12:47:30Z dim: igam`: does it tend to help maintenance or hinder it?
2016-07-07T12:47:37Z igam`: Good question! :-)
2016-07-07T12:47:49Z igam`: It's better to keep a good average granularity of course.
2016-07-07T12:48:16Z igam`: In your case you already have subdivided your pgloader system into modules. This is good. Perhaps you don't need to split them out into different systems.
2016-07-07T12:48:23Z igam`: (I've not used asdf modules so far).
2016-07-07T12:48:34Z dim: I want to make it easy for me to maintain while still allowing a single (ql:quickload "pgloader") to allow users to play with pgloader
2016-07-07T12:49:04Z igam`: dim: so the question you have to ask in your situation is whether it would ben convenient for you to load only parts of your system (say, only a given module) either for reusability or for testing.
2016-07-07T12:49:09Z dim: I think I'll begin with overlapping systems to ease my part of the work and get a sense of it
2016-07-07T12:49:15Z dim: thanks guys ;-)
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2016-07-07T12:49:49Z dim: igam`: it currently would be very convenient, because I broke it all and I am back to being able to load and finish parts at a time
2016-07-07T12:49:52Z igam`: for development I'd say it'd be convenient to be able to load and test only one module. So basically one system for each module could be a good starting point.
2016-07-07T12:50:08Z dim: yeah that was the thinking
2016-07-07T12:50:16Z dim: going to play with that at next code window
2016-07-07T12:50:30Z dim: they tend to be thin a long apart nowadays tho :(
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2016-07-07T15:00:21Z sjl: if I have a list of things, and each thing is a tree of conses and numbers, is there a way I can sort this list into a canonical order?
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2016-07-07T15:00:40Z sjl: I don't particularly care what the ordering *is*, as long as it's the same
2016-07-07T15:01:27Z sjl: so e.g. sorting (   (foo (a 1)) (bar baz) )   and ( (bar baz) (foo (a 1)) ) should sort to the same thing, but I don't care which "direction" it goes in
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2016-07-07T15:03:13Z sjl: essentially I'm trying to cache states of a game, where a state looks like (foo bar baz)
2016-07-07T15:03:32Z sjl: but when I compute states I can get their contents in any order
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2016-07-07T15:04:04Z sjl: so I need a way to "normalize" them so I can pass them to a #'equal hash-table
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2016-07-07T15:09:18Z jackdaniel: sjl: symbols and numbers you mean?
2016-07-07T15:09:25Z moore33:  sjl: If you can write the function, you can sort it.
2016-07-07T15:09:52Z sjl: jackdaniel: yeah trees of symbols and numbers I mean
2016-07-07T15:10:36Z sjl: so e.g. state X in the game might look like ( (control xplayer) (board (o o o) (x x x) (b b b)) (turn 10) )
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2016-07-07T15:10:54Z sjl: and if state Y is ( (turn 10) (control xplayer) (board (o o o) (x x x) (b b b)) )
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2016-07-07T15:11:17Z sjl: I want the sort to produce the same #'equal list for both
2016-07-07T15:11:32Z sjl: so the cache would treat it as seen
2016-07-07T15:11:35Z jackdaniel: I'd write a recursive predicate to sort the tree first
2016-07-07T15:11:57Z jackdaniel: normal funciton pased to #'sort
2016-07-07T15:12:18Z sjl: yeah I guess the question is how to write that predicate, hah
2016-07-07T15:12:26Z jackdaniel: ah, a sec
2016-07-07T15:12:53Z sjl: I guess I can use sxhash for most things to quickly compare
2016-07-07T15:13:05Z sjl: and only check symbol names when hashes collide or something
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2016-07-07T15:15:30Z brfennpocock`: is that maybe a time taht you know each time you'll have all the same keys? Might be faster to do like mapping (equal (assoc key a) (assoc key b) ) ?
2016-07-07T15:16:05Z sjl: unfortunately no, the keys can vary per state
2016-07-07T15:16:22Z brfennpocock`: nb symbols (not symbol-names) are fixnum-sized atomics, taking hashes of their string-names will slow it down in that case :-)
2016-07-07T15:16:57Z sjl: I'd be doing sxhash of the symbol, not the symbol-name
2016-07-07T15:17:18Z sjl: cause yeah I don't care about the names at all
2016-07-07T15:17:19Z Posterdati: hi
2016-07-07T15:17:36Z brfennpocock`: but the symbol itself is already encoded in a single machine word (probably)
2016-07-07T15:19:31Z moore33: Actually, the sxhash of a symbol has to be tied to its name and package name.
2016-07-07T15:19:44Z Posterdati: I'm writing a finite state machine library using bordeaux-threads, I need to pass an object to the thread function, so I'm using *default-special-bindings*, how can I extract the object itself from the thread function? I'm looking at bordeaux-threads-test.lisp the test default-special-bindings test
2016-07-07T15:20:15Z moore33: But the sxhash of a symbol might be computed once and stored with the symbol.
2016-07-07T15:20:42Z sjl: > Although similarity is defined for symbols in terms of both the symbol's name and the packages in which the symbol is accessible, item 3 disallows using package information to compute the hash code, since changes to the package status of a symbol are not visible to equal.
2016-07-07T15:21:02Z sjl: yeah I'd expect sbcl to just hash it once
2016-07-07T15:22:21Z moore33: sjl: Hmm, I wonder how that reconciles with case 2, specifically how a symbol has the same sxhash in different lisp images.
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2016-07-07T15:22:56Z sjl: hmm, yeah
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2016-07-07T15:24:19Z igam`: sjl: a quick and dirty way to order two random lisp objects is to use (lambda (x y) (string< (princ-to-string x) (princ-to-string y)))
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2016-07-07T15:24:39Z igam`: sjl: but otherwise you will want to implement your own ordering function.
2016-07-07T15:25:02Z sjl: igam`: "quick" in implementation time or runtime? heh
2016-07-07T15:25:11Z igam`: implementation time.
2016-07-07T15:25:15Z igam`: I just wrote it above!
2016-07-07T15:25:17Z igam`: :-)
2016-07-07T15:25:44Z igam`: sjl: but you're right you will want to add at least a let *print-circle* t and it can be slow.
2016-07-07T15:26:14Z jackdaniel: oh, that's clever, didn't think about it
2016-07-07T15:26:54Z jackdaniel: sjl: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319952 maybe something of this kind (didn't test it whatsoever)
2016-07-07T15:28:25Z moore33: sjl: You could also turn the problem around and guarantee that the state list is always generated in "sorted" order.
2016-07-07T15:28:27Z jackdaniel: the bigger problem would be with the flattening though: (o . (o . o)) and (o o . o) willbe flattened into the same ting
2016-07-07T15:28:32Z sjl: jackdaniel: that looks like what I'm coming up with, yeah... what if the hash codes collide in the final case?
2016-07-07T15:28:47Z jackdaniel: sjl: I'd use symbol-name :-)
2016-07-07T15:28:50Z sjl: moore33: yeah that's pretty tricky though... not sure it's possible in my case
2016-07-07T15:28:55Z jackdaniel: but you've mentioned you want sxhash
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2016-07-07T15:36:10Z jackdaniel: I like igam`'s solution most (with princ-to-string)
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2016-07-07T15:38:18Z sjl: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319954
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2016-07-07T15:38:59Z sjl: maybe something like this?
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2016-07-07T15:39:28Z jackdaniel: looks definetely cleaner than mine :)
2016-07-07T15:39:34Z sjl: if the hash codes collide, but they aren't the same object, we fall back to the slow-ass one
2016-07-07T15:39:40Z sjl: which is probably pretty unlikely
2016-07-07T15:40:21Z jackdaniel: looks OK to me
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2016-07-07T15:40:38Z sjl: actually I think that list in the typecase should be cons
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2016-07-07T15:40:44Z sjl: to treat nil consistently
2016-07-07T15:40:51Z jackdaniel: eventually I'd replace (if (eql a b) nil (fact-slow< a b)) with (unless (eql a b) (fact-slow< a b)) but it's a matter of preference
2016-07-07T15:41:09Z jackdaniel: right, as a symbol
2016-07-07T15:41:32Z sjl: unless is just something my brain can't process
2016-07-07T15:41:41Z sjl: intellectually I know it's just (when (not ...))
2016-07-07T15:41:54Z sjl: but for some reason my brain has a cache miss every time I read that fucking word
2016-07-07T15:41:55Z jackdaniel: sjl: for me unless is (if bah nil something)
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2016-07-07T15:42:06Z jackdaniel: so you get rid of a middle NIL
2016-07-07T15:42:11Z sjl: yeah
2016-07-07T15:42:31Z sjl: I don't have the same problem with clojure's when-not
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2016-07-07T15:42:33Z jackdaniel: I don't translate it to when, it's awkward to me too
2016-07-07T15:42:58Z sjl: something about not seeing the word "not" in it makes me forget there's the negation and have to think about it
2016-07-07T15:43:06Z sjl: but that's just my garbage brain
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2016-07-07T15:43:35Z jackdaniel: :)
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2016-07-07T15:44:59Z moore33: One thing to keep in mind is that sxhash will give different results in different implementations, and thus you will have different orders. This may not matter, or it might be the source of subtle bugs...
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2016-07-07T15:45:31Z sjl: doesn't matter at all for my case, luckily
2016-07-07T15:45:56Z sjl: but yeah I get that this is a bit janky :)
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2016-07-07T15:51:49Z igam`: jackdaniel: equal objects will probably princ to the same too, so it's not better than sxhash.
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2016-07-07T15:52:04Z igam`: princ (or any other printing) has it's big share of problems. As I said, it's Q&D.
2016-07-07T15:52:24Z igam`: For a specific application, it's better to compute a specific ordering function.
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2016-07-07T15:53:42Z jackdaniel: igam`: I mean that I like its simplicity
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2016-07-07T18:14:43Z milanj: Xach, can I change endpoint in ZS3 ?
2016-07-07T18:15:00Z Xach: milanj: yes.
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2016-07-07T18:15:28Z Xach: milanj: hmm, it is not documented, sorry, but zs3:*s3-endpoint* can be changed.
2016-07-07T18:15:36Z Xach: milanj: What do you want to use?
2016-07-07T18:15:52Z milanj: in-house CEPH
2016-07-07T18:16:13Z Xach: What is CEPH?
2016-07-07T18:16:29Z milanj: it's object storage
2016-07-07T18:16:40Z milanj: which support s3 protocol
2016-07-07T18:16:48Z Xach: Interesting. If it works, let me know.
2016-07-07T18:17:16Z milanj: I will
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2016-07-07T18:20:55Z milanj: (look's like it won't work, Unexpected XML structure: ....)
2016-07-07T18:21:18Z Xach: Sorry about that. I can be hired to make it work!
2016-07-07T18:21:30Z Xach: (i wish i had the free time to do it for free)
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2016-07-07T18:26:23Z milanj: sure, not an issue, it was for prototyping
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2016-07-07T18:30:26Z milanj: I doubt that my company would pay for this kind of work
2016-07-07T18:30:31Z Xach: Pity
2016-07-07T18:31:03Z rme: Throw us poor hackers a bone, folks!
2016-07-07T18:31:07Z milanj: btw. I was using zs3 couple of years ago for some high-volume s3 operations
2016-07-07T18:31:23Z milanj: (tens of millions, and we needed it to be fast)
2016-07-07T18:31:36Z Xach: the latest version has keepalive!
2016-07-07T18:31:37Z milanj: one thing I noticed that that it's not reusing conenctions
2016-07-07T18:31:48Z milanj: so it was slower
2016-07-07T18:31:56Z Xach: patch came from a zs3-using company that is also not funding any development :)
2016-07-07T18:32:22Z Xach: (zs3:with-keep-alive ...) will reuse connections in ...
2016-07-07T18:32:39Z milanj: aha, that's great
2016-07-07T18:32:49Z milanj: this was 4 years ago
2016-07-07T18:32:50Z milanj: at least
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2016-07-07T20:00:13Z Walakea: is there a way to make sbcl behave better at interactive work?
2016-07-07T20:01:08Z oGMo: that would depend on how it's behaving and what you want
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2016-07-07T20:02:37Z oGMo: i haven't had any particular issue with its interactive performance, but i haven't tried writing crysis 6
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2016-07-07T20:02:53Z Walakea: not sure if you know, but guile is quite good at interactive work
2016-07-07T20:03:04Z oGMo: k
2016-07-07T20:03:23Z Walakea: i mean pressing arrow keys prints symbols representing them
2016-07-07T20:03:30Z Walakea: instead of moving
2016-07-07T20:03:39Z oGMo: having written a number of interactive things in sbcl, i haven't had any real issue in that area
2016-07-07T20:03:50Z oGMo: oh
2016-07-07T20:03:52Z |3b|: if you mean the built-in repl, "use slime"
2016-07-07T20:03:57Z |3b|: is the usual answer
2016-07-07T20:03:59Z oGMo: ^
2016-07-07T20:04:02Z |3b|: or there are things like rlwrap
2016-07-07T20:04:06Z Walakea: no
2016-07-07T20:04:22Z Walakea: i mean running sbcl inside a shell
2016-07-07T20:04:32Z oGMo: use slime
2016-07-07T20:04:35Z Walakea: dont want to have to use Emacs
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2016-07-07T20:05:00Z oGMo: if you don't, then you're not doing anything particularly serious, so your options are limited
2016-07-07T20:05:04Z |3b|: there is also the sb-aclrepl contrib, no idea what it actually does beyond having "repl" in the name though
2016-07-07T20:05:15Z Walakea: sure it is good but i want to learn CL, not Emacs
2016-07-07T20:05:55Z oGMo: that's like wanting to learn C++, but insisting on notepad.exe and calling the compiler by hand
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2016-07-07T20:06:21Z |3b| would prefer that to the c++ IDEs :p
2016-07-07T20:06:24Z Walakea: that is how i usually start learning a new language
2016-07-07T20:06:28Z oGMo: writing much more than hello world that way is unproductive and painful, and no one does that
2016-07-07T20:06:32Z oGMo: |3b|: you shouldn't :p
2016-07-07T20:06:38Z |3b|: (if nothing else, easier to replace notepad with emacs when starting there :p )
2016-07-07T20:06:47Z Walakea: < 200 lines of code is okay
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2016-07-07T20:07:07Z |3b|: oGMo: also, would mean i could build a random c++ program without downloading the whole IDE
2016-07-07T20:07:25Z oGMo: building is orthogonal to writing
2016-07-07T20:07:29Z oGMo: even with CL :P
2016-07-07T20:07:32Z oGMo: anyway bbiaw
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2016-07-07T20:07:58Z Walakea: yeah and how do i tell sbcl to compile / interpret a script file?
2016-07-07T20:08:11Z |3b|: Walakea: if you happen to know vim already, there is something like slime for it too i think
2016-07-07T20:08:24Z Walakea: another thing i dont like
2016-07-07T20:08:27Z |3b|: from the repl (load "some-file.lisp")
2016-07-07T20:08:42Z |3b|: well, an opportunity for you to improve the situation for your favorite editor once you know cl :)
2016-07-07T20:08:55Z Walakea: "sbcl load ...."?
2016-07-07T20:09:24Z |3b|: from shell, i think you can do sbcl some-file.lisp
2016-07-07T20:09:28Z |3b|: or sbcl --load ..
2016-07-07T20:09:33Z |3b|: or sbcl --script ...
2016-07-07T20:10:17Z |3b|: --script disables the debugger, while --load i think will leave you in repl after loading the file
2016-07-07T20:10:26Z |3b| doesn't actually do that, so not sure the specifics
2016-07-07T20:10:44Z |3b| has to go too though, hope you get things working a way you like :)
2016-07-07T20:11:16Z Walakea: --script
2016-07-07T20:11:49Z Walakea: ok, thanks for help
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2016-07-07T20:12:17Z Walakea: for now i will stick to Gedit on one half of the screen and shell on the other
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2016-07-07T20:23:17Z pierpa: masolispochism, if it doesn't exist, it's a good new word
2016-07-07T20:23:45Z zannix: i have a question
2016-07-07T20:23:50Z shka_: aski it
2016-07-07T20:24:10Z zannix: sb-gray:stream-read-char should be able to handle flexi-streams, right?
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2016-07-07T20:25:05Z phoe_krk: zannix: I think it depends on SBCL's default external format.
2016-07-07T20:25:14Z phoe_krk: But again, I don't know SBCL that well.
2016-07-07T20:26:16Z zannix: Basically I'm building something that takes a buffer, turns into a stream, and parses with cl-json
2016-07-07T20:26:38Z zannix: and in the past I could just send json-decode a flexi-stream directly, but now sbcl is complaining
2016-07-07T20:27:34Z phoe_krk: zannix: give us the logs of its complaints.
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2016-07-07T20:29:35Z zannix: phoe_krk: http://pastebin.com/MYk3fDGq
2016-07-07T20:31:11Z zannix: some of the relevant code: http://pastebin.com/sPDkywpB
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2016-07-07T20:33:52Z phoe_krk: Welp.
2016-07-07T20:34:01Z phoe_krk: SBCL doesn't know how to handle a flexistream.
2016-07-07T20:34:13Z zannix: that's what I was afraid of
2016-07-07T20:34:19Z phoe_krk: Which isn't surprising.
2016-07-07T20:34:33Z zannix: what's weird is that it worked just fine before
2016-07-07T20:34:39Z phoe_krk: Hm.
2016-07-07T20:34:53Z phoe_krk: Can you find the previous SBCL version that is able to run this?
2016-07-07T20:35:00Z phoe_krk: Perhaps it's a regression, either in SBCL or in flex.
2016-07-07T20:35:31Z zannix: I'll try with 1.3.1, I think that's the last version I used with that code
2016-07-07T20:35:58Z zannix: I don't think it's in flexi-streams because I have the same problem with fast-io. its prolly sbcl
2016-07-07T20:36:01Z phoe_krk: When you do, trace SB-GRAY:STREAM-READ-CHAR and take note of what arguments it's being called with.
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2016-07-07T20:48:10Z shka_: i really hopped that using qt with cl would go smoothly
2016-07-07T20:48:15Z shka_: but nope
2016-07-07T20:48:19Z shka_: :(
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2016-07-07T20:50:34Z pjb: usually it goes smoothly.
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2016-07-07T20:51:55Z shka_: well, qtools seems to not export symbols like make-qpushbutton
2016-07-07T20:52:17Z shka_: and i can't even get along with common-qt to display any window
2016-07-07T20:52:38Z shka_: perhaps my smoke is just in wrong version
2016-07-07T20:52:59Z pjb: Oh sorry, I though you wrote ql, not qt.
2016-07-07T20:53:16Z shka_: hehe, ok
2016-07-07T20:53:18Z pjb: Yeah, qt goes thru ffi, so it's bound to be bad, making C code run…
2016-07-07T20:53:31Z shka_: ql is running great here though
2016-07-07T20:53:49Z shka_: i'm not sure what is my best bet when it comes to gui
2016-07-07T20:54:02Z shka_: i used to think that qt is always a solid option
2016-07-07T20:54:15Z shka_: but i'm not so sure anymore
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2016-07-07T21:12:23Z emaczen: With parenscript, I'm having trouble generating a unicode minus sign string literal.
2016-07-07T21:12:48Z emaczen: The JS output from (ps:ps ...) adds an extra "\"
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2016-07-07T21:13:13Z emaczen: Example: (ps:ps (case val ("\u2212" ...)))
2016-07-07T21:14:13Z emaczen: there is either an extra "\" or a missing "\"
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2016-07-07T21:22:37Z Bike: has anything changed since before.
2016-07-07T21:24:03Z Bike: oh, that's interesting, \\u2212 gets you \\\\u2212 there, for some reason.
2016-07-07T21:28:41Z mordocai: shka_: Shinmera is pretty on top of things I think. You might want to file an issue for the problems you are having
2016-07-07T21:29:16Z shka_: mordocai: i will, once i will be able to gather more information on what the heck is wrong
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2016-07-07T21:29:35Z therik: hello, is it advisable to add mutex or semaphore into very tight loop, assuming that it will very rarely lock?
2016-07-07T21:29:50Z shka_: therik: add if you must
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2016-07-07T21:30:11Z shka_: thread safety is not something you can compromise
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2016-07-07T21:31:28Z mordocai: therik: Ideally avoid sharing memory in that case but if you can't then definitely use something to ensure no concurrent access.
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2016-07-07T21:33:36Z mordocai: Those "this will happen so rarely I just won't worry about it" ideas generally cause hours or days of debugging effort later down the line.
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2016-07-07T21:35:33Z Bike: emaczen: good news. if you just put in an actual character, ps will output the code sequence.
2016-07-07T21:35:49Z therik: hm, that's not quite the point
2016-07-07T21:36:09Z therik: I have two options.. Either add mutex around the iterating part of a loop, ie. the mutex will be released on the beginning of the body of the loop and acquired again when the iteration process kicks in... the point is so nothing can cons anything into the list while it's being iterated, while it's ok to cons things into it as atomic operation
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2016-07-07T21:36:48Z shka_: therik: consing into list is ok
2016-07-07T21:36:51Z therik: second option is, instead of consing in while the list is iterated, i'll just stuff everything that should be consed on the side and then do it in bulk when the iteration is finished..
2016-07-07T21:37:01Z shka_: therik: unless you actually ment some destructive operation
2016-07-07T21:37:03Z therik: shka_: it's my doubly linked list, consing isn't atomic
2016-07-07T21:37:11Z shka_: i see
2016-07-07T21:37:13Z therik: shka_: yes, it's destructive
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2016-07-07T21:37:45Z shka_: therik: if you are concerned about performance, just mesure it
2016-07-07T21:37:59Z therik: kind of a bummer is, if I put all the to-be-consed content on the side, i'll create lot of garbage
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2016-07-07T22:00:52Z emaczen: Bike: What do you mean an actual character?
2016-07-07T22:02:05Z Bike: (ps:ps (case val ("−" ...))) -> case '\u2212'
2016-07-07T22:02:58Z emaczen: Bike: for me it outputs 'u2212' when I do that
2016-07-07T22:03:32Z Bike: (write (ps:ps (case val (#.(make-string 1 :initial-element (code-char #x2212)) "back"))) :escape nil)?
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2016-07-07T22:05:49Z emaczen: Bike: I'm printing out the 'val' I pass to 'case' and it prints "−" but it won't match anyything in the case form...
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2016-07-07T22:07:12Z Bike: Does the code look right or not?
2016-07-07T22:09:07Z emaczen: No it also adds an extra "\" --> \\u2212
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2016-07-07T22:09:42Z Bike: is that just in what lisp prints in the repl, or the actual output with :escape nil?
2016-07-07T22:12:07Z emaczen: I don't see how I can use (write (ps:ps ..) :escape nil)
2016-07-07T22:12:14Z emaczen: brb
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2016-07-07T22:12:30Z Bike: what do you mean use. i want you to just put it in your repl and look at the result.
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2016-07-07T22:12:57Z Bike: adjusting however you're writing files can be done once it's clear that the output is correct.
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2016-07-07T22:15:21Z emaczen: Bike: I'm back
2016-07-07T22:17:20Z emaczen: Bike: even (write (ps:ps ...) :escape nil) prints two "\"
2016-07-07T22:17:34Z emaczen: err, write only prints one but the value returned has two.
2016-07-07T22:17:36Z p_l: anyone tried independently compiling https://github.com/franzinc/clim2 under allegro free edition?
2016-07-07T22:17:44Z Bike: Yes. Look, you're misunderstanding how this works.
2016-07-07T22:18:04Z Bike: The value returned "has two" because it's printed readably. That means that to indicate that there is an actual backslash there, the backslash is escaped.
2016-07-07T22:18:39Z Bike: When you write out the value, you can choose to do it that way, or you can not - which is what the :escape nil indicates - in which case it only writes out the backslash.
2016-07-07T22:18:50Z Bike: The actual string has one backslash in it. You can check with cl:char if you want.
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2016-07-07T22:19:59Z Bike: So, the code is now fine. You just need to make sure that when you write the code to a file, the writing is done without extra escape characters.
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2016-07-08T03:07:40Z peey: on this page : http://cliki.net/xml , info is repeated under two sections "Things With XML In The Title:", & "Things With XML In The Topic:"
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2016-07-08T03:09:07Z peey: Should it be edited and one of them removed?
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2016-07-08T03:11:21Z Bike: don't see why not. it's the same thing twice in the source, even.
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2016-07-08T03:24:30Z peey: Removed
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2016-07-08T03:45:16Z isoraqathedh: How do you confirm that a file pattern matches one file from a list of files, without involving disk access?
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2016-07-08T03:55:56Z pillton: Are you search for files with specific file names?
2016-07-08T03:56:02Z pillton: Are you searching...
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2016-07-08T03:58:09Z isoraqathedh: Searching for a globbing pattern, e.g. ~/Documents/My Scans/Book of Conworlds/Book 20/15a-*-*.jpg
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2016-07-08T04:05:52Z pillton: The function directory should be able to give you the files matching the pattern.
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2016-07-08T04:42:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-08T06:35:03Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-07-08T07:07:33Z papachan: morning
2016-07-08T07:11:34Z isoraqathedh: The problem with directory is that it always queries the disc, which is not something I want.
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2016-07-08T07:18:16Z pillton: Then use a text file.
2016-07-08T07:18:46Z Bike: what do you mean, use a text file?
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2016-07-08T07:19:25Z pillton: Sorry. Cache the result.
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2016-07-08T07:24:14Z pillton: You can use pathname-match-p to perform the filename match.
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2016-07-08T07:24:37Z Bike: wow, i had no idea that existed.
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2016-07-08T07:45:51Z isoraqathedh: Ah, pathname-match-p is exactly what I'm looking for, it seems.
2016-07-08T07:46:53Z isoraqathedh: Yup, thanks!
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2016-07-08T10:58:52Z therik: what's good unit test framework with coverage?
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2016-07-08T11:04:31Z DeadTrickster: coverage in lisp world usually means implementation feature independent of test framework
2016-07-08T11:04:48Z DeadTrickster: if you want something nice and cloud based look at coveralls client
2016-07-08T11:04:54Z schjetne: therik: FiveAM seems to be the most popular one
2016-07-08T11:05:38Z schjetne: Also what DeadTrickster said.
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2016-07-08T12:59:48Z malice`: Hi! I've got ubuntu 14.04 and SBCL from official repo: SBCL 1.1.14.debian and asdf that comes with it: "3.0.3". I want to quickload drakma, but I get an error during compile-file of bordeaux-threads: I need ASDF >= 3.1 to load this system.
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2016-07-08T12:59:56Z malice`: Is there some easy way to upgrade asdf on my system?
2016-07-08T13:00:43Z jackdaniel: malice`: sure it is, download asdf, build it with make and (load (compile-file "asdf-dir/build/asdf.lisp"))
2016-07-08T13:00:49Z jackdaniel: and voila, you have brand new asdf
2016-07-08T13:01:12Z jackdaniel: you may prebuild asdf.lisp on some other host if you want to
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2016-07-08T13:02:37Z malice`: I hoped for something easier (automatic) :)
2016-07-08T13:02:53Z malice`: I really hate the ancient software from Ubuntu.
2016-07-08T13:02:54Z jackdaniel: is it hard?
2016-07-08T13:03:15Z malice`: No, but takes more time than to paste one command.
2016-07-08T13:03:35Z malice`: And the downside is that now it's my duty to update it
2016-07-08T13:05:07Z jackdaniel: not instant enough? ^-^
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2016-07-08T13:06:15Z Grue``: malice`: you need to download a newer version of SBCL and install it instead
2016-07-08T13:06:28Z Grue``: 1.1.14 is reeeeeally old
2016-07-08T13:06:52Z Grue``: it probably also contains a newer version of asdf too
2016-07-08T13:11:43Z malice`: Grue``: I figured that out, I was hoping that there's some way to tell ubuntu to get me some relatively modern package
2016-07-08T13:11:55Z malice`: maybe I should be asking this @ ubuntu instead
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2016-07-08T13:28:10Z fe[nl]ix: malice`: download the sbcl binaries from sbcl.org
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2016-07-08T13:33:31Z dlowe: This is the only mention I'm going to make of this on #lisp, but I made T-shirts for lispers.
2016-07-08T13:33:34Z dlowe: http://www.zazzle.com/lisplove
2016-07-08T13:33:42Z therik: is there a way to print cons cells, ie to prevent that pretty printing of lists?
2016-07-08T13:33:56Z dlowe: therik: you can always roll your own
2016-07-08T13:34:26Z dlowe: it would just look like (a . (b . ( c . nil)))
2016-07-08T13:34:27Z therik: dlowe: that would be difficult, i've got circles
2016-07-08T13:35:21Z dlowe: you know about the *print-circle* variable?
2016-07-08T13:35:55Z dlowe: managing circles just means keeping a temporary hash table
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2016-07-08T13:36:04Z therik: yes, i've got that true, but i'm looking at the datastructure and as lisp converts (a . (b . (c . nil))) into (a b c, it's confusing the hell out of me
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2016-07-08T13:40:49Z dlowe: There's nothing I know of.
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2016-07-08T14:03:50Z igam`: therik: you can use: (ql:quickload "com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture") (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:print-conses '(a b c)) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:print-identified-conses '#1=(a b c . #1#))
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2016-07-08T14:04:34Z Grue``: holy moly, that's a long package name
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2016-07-08T14:04:56Z igam`: therik: notice the discussion on cll. You need a patch in com.informatimago/common-lisp/data/constants.lisp
2016-07-08T14:05:50Z dlowe: I would like to see more super long package names
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2016-07-08T14:06:05Z dlowe: but I also want package local nicknames everywhere
2016-07-08T14:06:18Z igam`: Yep, we need to work on it.
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2016-07-08T15:06:09Z sebboh: So I nuked my system-wide installation of sbcl and emacs and stumpwm and now I'm running all those out of ~/bin. I had to delete some fasl files...  Because they contained baked in references to /usr/lib... stuff instead of /home/sebboh/bin/... stuff.  But I am having trouble figuring out what this last one is. ;; Error compiling /home/sebboh/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-v2.17/swank/sbcl.lisp: ;;   Failed to find the
2016-07-08T15:06:10Z sebboh: TRUENAME of /usr//lib/sbcl/: No such file or directory
2016-07-08T15:08:04Z sebboh: This happens when I type startx and hit enter.  Because, ~/.xsession does exec stumpwm, and stumpwm ... wait that is a binary, a dump'd image of sbcl... probably the old one.  Might have answered my own question. :)
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2016-07-08T15:22:12Z igam`: Is there a /usr/lib/sbcl/ directory?
2016-07-08T15:22:33Z igam`: sebboh: also, look at the backtrace.
2016-07-08T15:22:40Z igam`: (where is this truename called from?)
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2016-07-08T15:25:31Z joshe: perhaps you need to build sbcl with --prefix, or set SBCL_HOME when running it
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2016-07-08T15:28:32Z sebboh: nope, it's all good.  I just needed to rebuild the stumpwm binary with the new sbcl.  Somehow I couldn't figure that out without typing the details into this msgbox first. ;)
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2016-07-08T15:29:26Z joshe: ah yes, actually using the new sbcl is also a good idea
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2016-07-08T15:30:16Z therik: igam`: thanks
2016-07-08T15:33:49Z therik: igam`: awesome, works well...
2016-07-08T15:34:34Z lexicall: How to answer the question elegantly, when I was asked "where lisp is used?" Perhaps AI is not fresh enough...
2016-07-08T15:34:52Z therik: AI is fresh enough again
2016-07-08T15:35:10Z lexicall: really? why?
2016-07-08T15:35:11Z therik: lisp is used in #lisp
2016-07-08T15:35:24Z therik: </sarcasm>
2016-07-08T15:35:29Z lexicall: XD fine...
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2016-07-08T15:36:14Z therik: i honestly don't know, there are obviously few tech companies that use it, but usually alongside C or something
2016-07-08T15:36:46Z therik: generally, I'd say it's used for difficult problems or problems that require good DSL
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2016-07-08T15:37:43Z lexicall: When I met with mathematica in my math course, I just found it a lisp, just a lisp with m-exp.
2016-07-08T15:38:14Z Fade: wolfram's lisp creds go way back. he was involved in thinking machines.
2016-07-08T15:39:08Z lexicall: But when I googled i found i am wrong. They said maxima uses it but wolfarm does not. They just re-invented lisp.
2016-07-08T15:39:22Z igam`: badly
2016-07-08T15:39:36Z lexicall: sure
2016-07-08T15:40:17Z igam`: I'm sure deep in his heart he regrets it.
2016-07-08T15:40:40Z therik: is wolfram actually useful for something?
2016-07-08T15:40:59Z rme: When I've heard Wolfram speak, I've always gotten the impression that he is very self-confident.
2016-07-08T15:41:02Z therik: i mean, is it production quality, I mean the pro version?
2016-07-08T15:42:08Z therik: what I found out, google usually handles simple math queries better and faster, but you have to use one-letter variables instead of "earth's radius", like in WA
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2016-07-08T15:42:50Z rme: So, I doubt if he regrets going his own way with Mathematica.
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2016-07-08T15:45:32Z lexicall: me too. But seriously i wonder how much Maxima is better than Mathematica. I haven't tried the former.
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2016-07-08T16:12:44Z sebboh: "earth's radius" used to be a unit in google's calculator, afaik.  I can't get it to work now. I can get "earth's radius in cm" to work.. but I don't think that is using calc.
2016-07-08T16:13:29Z sebboh: ie putting  * 2 on the end of the query breaks it.
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2016-07-08T16:20:51Z igam`: Well, what RADIUS do you mean?  (mapcar (lambda (name) (list (symbol-value name) (unit name))) '(earth-equatorial-radius earth-polar-radius earth-radius-equatorial earth-radius-mean earth-radius-polar earth-volumetric-mean-radius)) #| --> ((6378.1 km) (6356.8 km) (6378100.0 m) (6371000.0 m) (6356800.0 m) (6371.0 km)) |#
2016-07-08T16:21:29Z therik: any testing framework for parallel stuff?
2016-07-08T16:22:18Z igam`: The point on Earth surface farthest from the center is on the Chimborazo.
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2016-07-08T16:27:25Z therik: wait, how do you even test parallel code?
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2016-07-08T16:29:48Z phoe_krk: therik: correct
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2016-07-08T16:31:33Z jackdaniel: therik: creator of lparallel has written and used 1am (which is similar to 5am, but smaller and less volunerable to race issues)
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2016-07-08T16:37:08Z phoe_krk: I used 1am and I can say it's very minimalistic and fun.
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2016-07-08T16:45:20Z therik: phoe_krk: yea, it almost fits on a screen
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2016-07-08T16:47:19Z igam`: therik: using CSP
2016-07-08T16:47:31Z igam`: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicating_sequential_processes
2016-07-08T16:49:47Z sebboh: Any suggestions for pulling a pseudorandom boolean out of a hat?
2016-07-08T16:50:06Z sebboh: ie, a coin toss
2016-07-08T16:50:37Z Grue``: (= (random 2) 0)
2016-07-08T16:50:47Z sebboh: that looks good. Thanks!
2016-07-08T16:52:05Z dlowe: (zerop (random 2))
2016-07-08T16:53:41Z igam`: (defun hat () (zerop (random 2))) #| --> hat |#  (hat) #| --> nil |# ; seems to work :-)
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2016-07-08T16:54:02Z Grue``: CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 4014(tid 140737229387520): Signal 7 received (PC: 0x40e221)
2016-07-08T16:54:02Z Grue``: The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. Continuing with fingers crossed.
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2016-07-08T16:54:09Z Grue``: jesus, I never got that before
2016-07-08T16:54:24Z sebboh: igam`: yep I called hat "flip" but yes, I have that same code on my screen right now. ;)
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2016-07-08T16:55:43Z sebboh: Grue``, SIGBUS      10,7,10     Core    Bus error (bad memory access)
2016-07-08T16:55:59Z sebboh: You got a "bus error".  Sounds serious.
2016-07-08T16:56:33Z Grue``: well, all my projects have bus factor of 1 ;)
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2016-07-08T16:57:28Z sebboh: Grue``, I'm looking at man signal on linux, btw...  Please pardon me if that sig means something else where you are. But the message SBCL provided seems consistant...
2016-07-08T16:59:45Z Grue``: the pc I'm using is old and shitty, so it might be hardware-related
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2016-07-08T17:00:41Z sebboh: a little googling shows non-hardware sources for that signal, too.  Apparently c++ authors can make bugs that result in it. (So I bet lispers can too!!)
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2016-07-08T17:09:23Z sebboh: (list (flip)(flip)(flip)) gives me (T nil T), great.  But I don't know how to use (loop ...)... so (list (loop 100 (flip))) does not give me what I wanted (a list of 100 Ts or nils).  How should I change it?
2016-07-08T17:09:59Z Xach: sebboh: (loop repeat 100 collect (flip))?
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2016-07-08T17:10:47Z sebboh: that did the trick.
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2016-07-08T17:18:37Z igam`: (loop repeat 100 when (hat) sum 1) #| --> 51 |#
2016-07-08T17:18:52Z dlowe: (loop repeat 100 count (hat))
2016-07-08T17:19:10Z igam`: (/ (loop repeat 100 sum (loop repeat 100 when (hat) sum 1)) 100.0) #| --> 49.93 |#
2016-07-08T17:19:33Z igam`: even with only loop, you learn everyday :-)
2016-07-08T17:19:47Z igam`: loop count!
2016-07-08T17:23:06Z sebboh: I'm having trouble setting the random seed to a known value to walk the same T nil T nil path every time.  (Doesn't matter which, so long as I can get it more than once.)  Thing is I could have sworn that it worked a minute ago.. like, I set *random-state*, tested it, and moved on.  Now I'm getting different values.. and I realize, that there is some specific chance or odds that my test failed for the obvious reason... :D
2016-07-08T17:23:37Z sebboh: bbl
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2016-07-08T18:56:18Z TruePika: meh, I have a loop which needs to execute as fast as possible
2016-07-08T18:57:02Z TruePika: but it is dereferencing a constant (from DEFCONSTANT) every iteration, instead of having it inline (though that is because constants are actually specials, etc.)
2016-07-08T18:57:22Z TruePika: is there a way to define a constant in a way similar to C's `#DEFINE FOO 42`?
2016-07-08T18:58:34Z TruePika: or wait, macros <_<
2016-07-08T18:59:13Z TruePika has no experience with symbol macros, which might be the better choice
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2016-07-08T19:00:16Z Xach: TruePika: which implementation?
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2016-07-08T19:00:52Z TruePika: Xach: SBCL, just discovered I can s/defconstant/define-symbol-macro/ to get it working with no issue
2016-07-08T19:01:05Z TruePika: no more deref as far as I can tell
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2016-07-08T19:01:24Z TruePika: given that I see the actual value in the disassembly now, instead of the symbol
2016-07-08T19:01:30Z rme: ccl, for example, is pretty aggressive about substituting in defconstants, implementations may differ.
2016-07-08T19:01:40Z Xach: sbcl also has defglobal, which has somewhat different semantics
2016-07-08T19:01:42Z TruePika: I'm surprised SBCL didn't
2016-07-08T19:01:51Z Xach: nikodemus's blog entry on the topic is down :(
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2016-07-08T19:02:32Z TruePika: anyway, this loop should actually be fast...ish now
2016-07-08T19:03:17Z TruePika: well, as fast as you can get when comparing phashes (needing a (LOGCOUNT (LOGXOR ...)) every iteration)
2016-07-08T19:03:17Z Xach: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:A3U5wOdPfWAJ:random-state.net/log/3451988257.html+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us loads, eventually
2016-07-08T19:04:06Z TruePika: quadratic time loop over over 100,000 database rows
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2016-07-08T19:04:57Z TruePika: too bad there is no x86-64 opcode equivilant to LOGCOUNT
2016-07-08T19:05:16Z TruePika: that would speed things up further, methinks
2016-07-08T19:05:46Z rme: It has popcnt, doesn't it?
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2016-07-08T19:06:13Z TruePika: hm, yes it does
2016-07-08T19:06:37Z TruePika: ofc I have no idea if LOGCOUNT is _using_ it, nor can I tell easily
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2016-07-08T19:07:24Z rme: I think it's not too old; before Haswell, certainly.
2016-07-08T19:07:26Z TruePika: okay, scratch that
2016-07-08T19:07:28Z Xach: TruePika: it will show in disassemble
2016-07-08T19:07:28Z TruePika: ; ABE:       F3480FB8D0       POPCNT RDX, RAX
2016-07-08T19:08:01Z TruePika: now the question is if it is possible for me to move that instruction into my code instead of LOGCOUNT
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2016-07-08T19:08:30Z TruePika: Theoretically, it should be known the arg being passed is an (UNSIGNED-BYTE 64)
2016-07-08T19:09:02Z Xach: logcount will be used if sbcl knows the argument is an unsigned-byte 64.
2016-07-08T19:09:20Z Xach: you can do that with check-type, or promise it with declarations
2016-07-08T19:10:33Z TruePika: It would be a LOGXOR of two declared (UNSIGNED-BYTE 64)
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2016-07-08T19:11:08Z TruePika: just threw in a THE to help prove it
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2016-07-08T19:11:32Z TruePika: still calling LOGCOUNT though
2016-07-08T19:11:46Z Xach: TruePika: that's a matter of inlining, then.
2016-07-08T19:12:07Z Xach: I take that back...
2016-07-08T19:12:38Z TruePika: https://gist.github.com/TruePikachu/2ea75ed4649c4007c88b8e6d9aeebc22
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2016-07-08T19:13:46Z TruePika: yes I know I can combine line 7 into the LOOP on 6
2016-07-08T19:14:23Z Xach: sprinkling in THE is not a great way to get sbcl to do what you want.
2016-07-08T19:14:30Z Xach: it can do well without THE, and it's a lot easier to read, too.
2016-07-08T19:16:06Z TruePika: Just updated with the disassembly
2016-07-08T19:16:22Z TruePika: wait
2016-07-08T19:16:34Z TruePika: L40 has a POPCNT
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2016-07-08T19:17:25Z TruePika: what is 37 responsible for?
2016-07-08T19:18:37Z TruePika: don't tell me that is checking if POPCNT is availible...
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2016-07-08T19:23:47Z rme: Yes, it looks like that's what it's doing.
2016-07-08T19:24:50Z TruePika: I just feel like it's a waste to be checking that every iteration
2016-07-08T19:25:51Z TruePika: ...of course, now I'm interested in if the VBox CPUID allows for POPCNT
2016-07-08T19:28:32Z TruePika: I guess I might be able to tell by profiling LOGCOUNT, since it shouldn't be called if POPCNT is availible
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2016-07-08T19:29:01Z TruePika: some ASM might be an easier solution, though, for some definition of "easier"
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2016-07-08T23:49:44Z totimkopf: is M-x slime-close-parens-at-point removed?
2016-07-08T23:50:30Z totimkopf: in slime 2.14
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2016-07-09T00:31:26Z John[Lisbeth]: I sort of have a question about the nature of an interpreter and it is a little hard to explain because I haven't built my first interpreter, but I feel I need to build one before I can understand a comiler.
2016-07-09T00:32:07Z John[Lisbeth]: I can write a lisp function that can interpret strings that would normally be inputed into awk or sed, and out put the equivalent outputs that awk or sed would produce
2016-07-09T00:32:36Z John[Lisbeth]: But those implementations may be slightly slower than the awk and sed implementations written in c and then compiled to whatever because c is naturally faster
2016-07-09T00:33:24Z John[Lisbeth]: But something in my gut tells me that if I messed with vop, lisps functions for writing compilers, then I could make a special awk and a special sed which when compiled acted more like a c program and less like a lisp program wich is rewritable at compile time and all that jazz
2016-07-09T00:34:24Z John[Lisbeth]: It would take alot of work to make it exactly the same as what a c compiler would produce, and that wouldn't be worth my time even, but I should be able to write a function in lisp which is just about as fast as c if I put alot of work into designing it
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2016-07-09T00:35:01Z John[Lisbeth]: For example if I allow some small mutability into my program in a controlled way, I can get a huge gain in speed
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2016-07-09T00:35:58Z John[Lisbeth]: So that's basically as good as I can express it without reiterating myself.
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2016-07-09T00:41:23Z Xach: What makes C naturally faster?
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2016-07-09T00:46:13Z John[Lisbeth]: Well there is less abstraction between lisp and assembly. Because my machine is immutable and I can not change the hardware inside it, that means the only thing which I can alter above that is the binary or assembly. And c is very close to assembly and that is what makes it so great for writing fast code. There is very little bootstrapping or abstraction
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2016-07-09T00:47:00Z John[Lisbeth]: Not that I don't like the abstraction that lisps provides, but I also want to be able to use my lisp knowledge to create something which has very little abstraction after compilation.
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2016-07-09T00:47:55Z Bike: it ain't, man. if you spend any time on C you'll learn about the "C virtual machine" and look at the tortured output produced by compilers and so on. It's not a "portable assembler" or whatever.
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2016-07-09T00:50:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: All my programs are super fast at getting to a point where they have to wait for input, the screen to redraw, or for something over a network.
2016-07-09T00:50:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hasn't really mattered what language I've used.
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2016-07-09T00:55:48Z Bike: anyway you... didn't ask a question. and the other day you were asking about cons syntax, so maybe you should work on stuff some more before theorizing too hard
2016-07-09T00:57:58Z pierpa: AWK or sed in C are interpreters. In CL you can write a compiler with only slightly more effort than an interpreter. I'd say an awk written in CL would be orders of magnitude faster than an interpreter written in C.
2016-07-09T01:06:06Z Xach: there is an awk in CL, also
2016-07-09T01:10:07Z John[Lisbeth]: Yes I know there's awk in every language and some perl and so on
2016-07-09T01:10:30Z Bike: no, like, there's a full awk implementation.
2016-07-09T01:10:37Z Bike: https://github.com/sharplispers/clawk
2016-07-09T01:10:38Z John[Lisbeth]: First of all I am curious as to what you mean that assembly is not "portable"
2016-07-09T01:10:45Z Bike: that's not what i said
2016-07-09T01:10:46Z John[Lisbeth]: this is an unfamiliar term to me
2016-07-09T01:10:51Z John[Lisbeth]: oh my mistake
2016-07-09T01:11:00Z Bike: you don't know the word "portable"?
2016-07-09T01:11:08Z Bike: in a programming context?
2016-07-09T01:11:10Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm still and underclassmen
2016-07-09T01:11:15Z John[Lisbeth]: I've heard the word alot
2016-07-09T01:11:45Z John[Lisbeth]: According to my electrical engineer friend "I have only taken one C++ class and therefore do not count"
2016-07-09T01:12:00Z Bike: the other day you said your life would be meaningless if you couldn't program in a particular language. i really think you should reconsider making such statements before you know more.
2016-07-09T01:13:07Z John[Lisbeth]: That was before I knew that the definition to lisp is arbitrary.
2016-07-09T01:13:51Z John[Lisbeth]: and that lisp is simply the name of a family of programming languages
2016-07-09T01:14:58Z John[Lisbeth]: Now I am only unsure as to whether or not my life would have been meaningless.
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2016-07-09T01:16:04Z sharkteeth: on a different note, i'm currently learning about CL loop constructs. comparing do with loop, is one preferred over the other in general? does either have specific things its better at? or are they just two ways to approach a problem requiring a loop?
2016-07-09T01:16:07Z Bike: no, i just... you should learn more before you proclaim things like that, or make grand theories.
2016-07-09T01:16:45Z Bike: sharkteeth: loop is more common. do is pretty rare in code that i've seen. they're both just different iteration macros.
2016-07-09T01:17:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I can only make assumptions based on my current understanding of how things work at any given time.
2016-07-09T01:17:24Z sharkteeth: thanks Bike. do's syntax seems a little goofy on first read
2016-07-09T01:17:40Z Bike: you also have the option of making less assumptions, even if that means you can draw fewer conclusions
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2016-07-09T01:17:58Z Bike: sharkteeth: yeah i think that's basically it. i have a lot of trouble reading do forms, personally.
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2016-07-09T01:19:22Z Bike: plus you can write a do form as a loop pretty easily.
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2016-07-09T01:19:43Z John[Lisbeth]: I feel my rate of assumption making is adequate.
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2016-07-09T01:22:55Z John[Lisbeth]: It is by the process of making assumptions and testing them out that my ability to make assumptions is improved, until eventually my assumptions map well with reality.
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2016-07-09T01:34:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: pierpa: I remember hearing that http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ was faster than Perl's regexp to C compiler, but I've never seen proof of it.
2016-07-09T01:35:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: It was mentioned in Let over Lambda somewhere.
2016-07-09T01:35:10Z pierpa: what proof do you want?  just try it
2016-07-09T01:35:44Z pierpa: I have not measured it either. But I trust the author's claim
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2016-07-09T01:36:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: I could probably convince myself, but I couldn't convince anyone else, and it isn't super important to me which is faster.
2016-07-09T01:36:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: "Why did you choose those tests, Petit. These ones are much better!"
2016-07-09T01:36:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Plus I'd have to write Perl.
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2016-07-09T01:36:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: :)
2016-07-09T01:37:01Z pierpa: just educate people about REs then
2016-07-09T01:37:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: Sorry? I don't understand.
2016-07-09T01:38:18Z pierpa: it's obvious that a CL RE matcher will be faster than one in C, if one knows what's a RE
2016-07-09T01:38:39Z pierpa: (and the CL implementation is half-decent)
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2016-07-09T01:38:52Z pierpa: you are comparing interpreters versus compilers
2016-07-09T01:39:37Z Bike: https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html is usual. I'm not sure if ppcre actually uses NFAs, though.
2016-07-09T01:39:55Z pierpa: what else could it use?
2016-07-09T01:40:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: I thought Perl compiled all regeular expressions literals before runtime.
2016-07-09T01:40:31Z pierpa: it compiles them to some kind of byte code
2016-07-09T01:40:41Z pierpa: which then is interpreted
2016-07-09T01:40:55Z pierpa: while CLPPCRE compiles them to *machine code*
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2016-07-09T01:41:31Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irregsexp/ there was some benchmark testing here
2016-07-09T01:42:10Z pierpa: Bike: the Russ Cox page describes a different problem which some RE libraries have, which is orthogonal to the interpreted/compiled question
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2016-07-09T01:56:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: thanks for the links
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2016-07-09T01:56:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: The main take away from the Russ Cox page is to try all possible paths at the same time? I'm still working through it right now.
2016-07-09T01:58:01Z Bike: well, yes, but pierpa meant something else, and ppcre can't use nfas since it has backtracking
2016-07-09T02:00:38Z pierpa: hmmm
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2016-07-09T02:02:31Z Bike: it uses some closure-driven thing, i vaguely remember
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2016-07-09T02:43:21Z John[Lisbeth]: Another way to put my problem is that there are the haskells and the c's, and the javas, and the pythons
2016-07-09T02:43:50Z John[Lisbeth]: and then there are the perls and the schemes and the common lisps that offer escapes from this sort of rigid syntax
2016-07-09T02:43:54Z Bike: you haven't actually mentioned a problem
2016-07-09T02:44:09Z John[Lisbeth]: It's hard to describe my problem. I am asking you to empathize with me on that one.
2016-07-09T02:44:44Z John[Lisbeth]: Here and #emacs and #scheme are the only places I can really go to talk to lispers
2016-07-09T02:44:49Z sharkteeth: do you mean it's hard to learn different languages/styles and keep them all straight?
2016-07-09T02:45:02Z sharkteeth: i don't really understand the problem either
2016-07-09T02:45:08Z John[Lisbeth]: Yes and that those languages aren't programmable programming languages
2016-07-09T02:45:23Z John[Lisbeth]: fortran is not a programmable programming language
2016-07-09T02:45:32Z John[Lisbeth]: but fortran is not so different from c
2016-07-09T02:45:58Z John[Lisbeth]: haskells syntax is similarly rigid
2016-07-09T02:46:13Z John[Lisbeth]: lisp's heavy reliance on parentheses allows it's syntax to be very freeing
2016-07-09T02:46:47Z John[Lisbeth]: Whereas no matter how you program in fortran or c you will still be in fortran or c
2016-07-09T02:47:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: John[Lisbeth]: Haskell has support for text based macros last time I checked.
2016-07-09T02:47:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: Little parser.
2016-07-09T02:47:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: parsers*
2016-07-09T02:47:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: https://wiki.haskell.org/Template_Haskell
2016-07-09T02:47:56Z John[Lisbeth]: yes and in theory you could write that creates an environment which simulates macros
2016-07-09T02:48:05Z John[Lisbeth]: but when you edited that interpreter you would still be editing c
2016-07-09T02:48:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: It looks like a pain compared to defmacro or define-syntax, but it's still used.
2016-07-09T02:48:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: This is already part of the compiler.
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2016-07-09T02:49:38Z John[Lisbeth]: if haskell manages to break into being lisp while keeping it's amazing typesystem then that will be impressive to me, otherwise I think lisp has better paradigms
2016-07-09T02:49:57Z John[Lisbeth]: It seems as if the rigid typing system and lisp are not compatible from what I understand.
2016-07-09T02:49:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: If you want to see Lisp with static types look at typed Racket and Shen.
2016-07-09T02:50:15Z John[Lisbeth]: You can do static types in common lisp as well.
2016-07-09T02:50:23Z pierpa: if you like lisp more, than you have it. Enjoy. What is the problem?
2016-07-09T02:50:24Z John[Lisbeth]: No need to break into racket or shen
2016-07-09T02:50:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: pierpa: writing code isn't as fun as talking about it on IRC
2016-07-09T02:50:48Z John[Lisbeth]: The problem is as I advance I have to reconcile my lisp knowledge with what other programmers are telling me who don't get the magic of lisp
2016-07-09T02:50:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: why do you think I'm here? )))
2016-07-09T02:51:07Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-09T02:51:28Z pierpa: so the problem is that you cannot choose what tools to use?
2016-07-09T02:51:50Z John[Lisbeth]: Lisp is the best tool until proven not the best tool.
2016-07-09T02:52:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: So is Brainfuck?
2016-07-09T02:52:51Z John[Lisbeth]: I am comfortable that lisp is the language I want and not c, but I still have this uneasiness about me
2016-07-09T02:53:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: They have pills for that now.
2016-07-09T02:53:53Z John[Lisbeth]: It's not time to take my antipsychotics, yet ;)
2016-07-09T02:56:10Z John[Lisbeth]: I just feel very unrelaxed about lisp knowing that there is nothing that makes a lisp a lisp.
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2016-07-09T02:58:01Z John[Lisbeth]: logically I realize that lisp must have an arbitrary meaning in the fast combinations and permutaions of symbolics, but it is hard to accept.
2016-07-09T02:58:37Z John[Lisbeth]: My conjecture is that there logically must be a language better than lisp which is possible. And my concern is can common lisp steal the features from that better language no matter what those features are.
2016-07-09T02:58:44Z John[Lisbeth]: If not then my time spent in common lisp is wasted
2016-07-09T02:58:57Z John[Lisbeth]: that is the struggle I am facing
2016-07-09T02:59:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: Most programmers know many languages. Don't worry about being stuck with one. You'll have to learn a new one no matter what you pick.
2016-07-09T02:59:36Z John[Lisbeth]: I am studying longevity of code.
2016-07-09T02:59:49Z John[Lisbeth]: Code that will run in one hundred million years time on an alien computer.
2016-07-09T03:00:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's what compilers are for, but if it makes you feel better this exists. http://www.schloerconsulting.com/quantum-computer-q-lisp-programming-language
2016-07-09T03:00:44Z pierpa: do you know the 100 year language essay?
2016-07-09T03:00:50Z John[Lisbeth]: no
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2016-07-09T03:01:09Z pierpa: http://www.paulgraham.com/hundred.html
2016-07-09T03:01:50Z John[Lisbeth]: qlisp makes me feel better a little
2016-07-09T03:03:33Z John[Lisbeth]: reading hundred.html
2016-07-09T03:04:42Z pierpa: I'm rereading it too, as I read it many years ago and don't remember it well
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2016-07-09T03:42:52Z John[Lisbeth]: That was a good read
2016-07-09T03:43:16Z John[Lisbeth]: I agree that as computers get more complicated we will eliminate datastructures and optomizations for convenience
2016-07-09T03:43:31Z John[Lisbeth]: and as they get faster we will worry less about the bits
2016-07-09T03:44:04Z John[Lisbeth]: I also agree that in many languages features in that language may have been better as some sort of function that accepts a string which is a domain specific language
2016-07-09T03:44:27Z John[Lisbeth]: which is why so many languages can implement perl regular expressions
2016-07-09T03:45:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I disagree that object oriented as in .net and nmp will live forever, but I agree that the concept of objects will probably survive and be very useful in 100 years
2016-07-09T03:46:54Z John[Lisbeth]: I think also that JSON or some future thing like it will exist so that languages can comunicate, and this will help to eliminate bootstrapping
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2016-07-09T03:48:08Z John[Lisbeth]: I think though that if turing completeness is true, then the only limitation to lisp surviving would be if lisp refused to make a change to the compiler which was necessary for the language to progress futher, and so another language overtakes it.
2016-07-09T03:48:25Z John[Lisbeth]: So since anyone can fork lisp, the spirit of lisp and the unix way will live on.
2016-07-09T03:49:03Z pierpa: or maybe not
2016-07-09T03:49:13Z John[Lisbeth]: I am a nihilist so of course you are correct.
2016-07-09T03:49:35Z John[Lisbeth]: Of course all I can do in the end is make my wager and see how the dice roll.
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2016-07-09T03:50:22Z John[Lisbeth]: I agree with the writer that even eliminating numbers in a language for somethign like linked lists as numbers might be something people in the future would want to do.
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2016-07-09T03:50:55Z John[Lisbeth]: so 3 would be something like '(()()()())
2016-07-09T03:51:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: Peano Arithmetic?
2016-07-09T03:51:25Z John[Lisbeth]: let me do some googling
2016-07-09T03:51:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: Wait, not quite.
2016-07-09T03:51:44Z Bike: one wonders why there's four nils, though
2016-07-09T03:51:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: Anyway, maybe you should consolidate your ideas into a blog.
2016-07-09T03:52:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: Because one nil is zero, obviously
2016-07-09T03:52:14Z Bike: and () is what, negative one?
2016-07-09T03:52:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yes
2016-07-09T03:52:23Z Bike: :/
2016-07-09T03:52:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: You only need negative one because you can represent all other negative numbers as products, duh./
2016-07-09T03:54:14Z Bike: if you have multiplication then you only really need primes, and
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2016-07-09T03:55:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, but we wouldn't want to make it too complicated, would we?
2016-07-09T03:55:37Z John[Lisbeth]: I can make 3 => '(Billy Mays)
2016-07-09T03:55:48Z phf: Bike: your brand of clever is ~too~ clever
2016-07-09T03:55:59Z Bike: i try
2016-07-09T03:57:05Z Bike: i think too clever is how a lot of number representation goes, anyway. this isn't as complicated as church numerals or symmetric level-index, which are totally not my fault
2016-07-09T03:57:56Z John[Lisbeth]: I think one thing which would help is to come up with a computer programming notation which is acceptable for math in schools, which lisp nearly is
2016-07-09T03:58:29Z John[Lisbeth]: Not a language like f(x) = x + 1. That's garbage in my opinion
2016-07-09T03:58:55Z John[Lisbeth]: I might as well have used awk
2016-07-09T03:59:36Z Petit_Dejeuner: peano arithmetic is the most convonient for integer arithmetic, because after the 32767th succ, it rolls over to negative numbers
2016-07-09T03:59:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: convenient* can't spell anymore
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2016-07-09T04:04:20Z phf: does anybody know why hemlock tty would take a noticeable amount of time to draw a buffer. is that their termcap code or something more fundamental?
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2016-07-09T04:09:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-09T04:16:02Z phf: oh, there's no hemlock tty in phemlock, so probably nobody knows..
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2016-07-09T07:06:14Z beach: Here is another argument against generating "documentation" from docstrings: The description of a protocol class should obviously not include slots, since slots are implementation details.  However slots do have docstrings attached to them.  The description SHOULD, however, include the required and supported initialization arguments when instances of the class are created.  But initialization arguments do not have associated
2016-07-09T07:06:15Z beach: documentation strings.
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2016-07-09T07:34:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: But please write docstrings so I can use #'describe in the repl.
2016-07-09T07:42:25Z Bike: i don't think that's at issue.
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2016-07-09T07:48:50Z smokeink: how to inspect a lexical variable? when (break)ing inside the (let()...) the vars binded by let are not shown in the debugger
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2016-07-09T07:52:42Z smokeink: got it, i was missing (declare (optimize debug))
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2016-07-09T08:27:29Z John[Lisbeth]: eval '(+ 2 2)
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2016-07-09T08:27:31Z John[Lisbeth]: oops
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2016-07-09T08:39:21Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Sure, docstrings have their use.  Just not as the full documentation.
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2016-07-09T08:44:17Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: It is clear that there are certain things that distinguish "Lisp" from other languages.  It is just that there is no agreement on the exact set of such things.  It is nothing to get upset about.  The same thing is true for lots of words, like "mountain", "food", "socialism", etc, etc, etc.  This fact should not come as a surprise to you, and it is nothing to get depressed about or to lose sleep about.
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2016-07-09T08:47:14Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: If you want an exact definition, then stick to something that has a document defining it, such as Common Lisp, RnRS, etc.
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2016-07-09T08:51:59Z John[Lisbeth]: There is certainly a difference between the lisp family of programming languages and other families of programming langauges
2016-07-09T08:52:20Z John[Lisbeth]: But these are differences only in the implementation of a turing machine
2016-07-09T08:53:05Z John[Lisbeth]: Lisp uses something approximate to McCarthy's turing machine which is still a turing complete turing machine but different than alan turing's one in design
2016-07-09T08:53:31Z Bike: cats are pretty much like asherovite, they're just different arrangements of protons
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2016-07-09T09:00:50Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: I suggest you read this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit
2016-07-09T09:01:17Z beach: ... because of the way you used "only".
2016-07-09T09:02:30Z Bike: it's like saying "emotions are just chemicals" or something. what isn't? it doesn't actually diminish
2016-07-09T09:03:14Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Also, be careful about the way you use "Turing machine".  Lisp is closer to lambda calculus (a universal machine with the same power as, but different from, a Turning machine) than to a Turing machine.
2016-07-09T09:05:44Z John[Lisbeth]: True a lisp turing machine and a traditional turing machine are different even though they could interpret each other.
2016-07-09T09:06:12Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: What I am trying to tell you is that there is no such thing as a "Lisp Turing machine".
2016-07-09T09:06:17Z John[Lisbeth]: But the compiler of a traditional turing complete system could be slowly modified over time to be closer to a lambda calculus style turing machine
2016-07-09T09:07:39Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: A Turing machine is a pretty well defined machine.  I suggest you use some neutral term instead like "a universal machine".
2016-07-09T09:08:03Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: There is no such thing as a "lambda calculus style Turing machine".
2016-07-09T09:08:42Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointer_machine it's just so exciting
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2016-07-09T09:10:11Z John[Lisbeth]: Well let me try to describe what I mean
2016-07-09T09:10:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I could write a lisp interpreter in bash because bash is turing complete
2016-07-09T09:10:35Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: I think I know what you mean.  Just please use the correct terminology.
2016-07-09T09:10:46Z John[Lisbeth]: Terminology changes from channel to channel
2016-07-09T09:11:02Z Bike: no, well, this is math stuff.
2016-07-09T09:11:11Z beach: I give up.
2016-07-09T09:11:28Z John[Lisbeth]: lisp turing machine has a different base than c turing machine for example, even though they are both turing complete
2016-07-09T09:11:38Z John[Lisbeth]: different implementations which are equally capable
2016-07-09T09:11:43Z John[Lisbeth]: but still different
2016-07-09T09:12:10Z Bike: there's no turing machine though. that's all beach meant. a turing machine is a specific idea. it has a tape and a state. it's not even like a computer. it's not involved with lisp or with c.
2016-07-09T09:13:11Z John[Lisbeth]: The laptop I am using infront of me is a turing complete turing machine
2016-07-09T09:13:28Z John[Lisbeth]: the phone in my pocket is a turing complete turing machine, even though they are of completely different design
2016-07-09T09:13:43Z Bike: well, one, turing machines don't actually exist, since they have infinitely many possible states.
2016-07-09T09:14:02Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Good luck with that.  I think I am through trying to educate you.
2016-07-09T09:14:13Z beach: I tried my best.
2016-07-09T09:14:25Z Bike: two, a turing machine specifically refers to the kind of machine turing came up with for theoretical purposes, with a ticker tape and a read/write head moving along it, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Turing_machine_2b.svg
2016-07-09T09:14:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I think we are in disagreement only in terminology and philosophy
2016-07-09T09:14:39Z Bike: that's what beach said five minutes ago yes
2016-07-09T09:14:46Z John[Lisbeth]: I see what you mean
2016-07-09T09:14:53Z John[Lisbeth]: so I should say something like a turing complete system
2016-07-09T09:15:08Z John[Lisbeth]: Lisp and c are both turing complete systems which are different from each other
2016-07-09T09:15:11Z Bike: sure
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2016-07-09T09:16:24Z ffmpex_: Ignorant noob here, can anyone recommend a good book for learning basic lisp?
2016-07-09T09:16:30Z John[Lisbeth]: You could say that programming languages with a base based on McCarthy's implementation in his essay are more lispy, but no lisp is more lisp than another lisp. Lisp is just the name of a family of programming languages based on McCarthy's turing complete system.
2016-07-09T09:16:40Z Bike: mingus: tell ffmpex_ about PCL
2016-07-09T09:16:45Z Bike: dammit
2016-07-09T09:16:49Z Bike: minion: tell ffmpex_ about PCL
2016-07-09T09:16:49Z minion: ffmpex_: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2016-07-09T09:16:52Z beach: Heh.
2016-07-09T09:16:54Z John[Lisbeth]: People say PCL is a great book but I have been really enjoying this one: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf
2016-07-09T09:17:14Z John[Lisbeth]: It's from the commonl lisp wiki where it is suggested as being easier for pcl: a lisp for beginners.
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2016-07-09T09:17:30Z Bike: yeah, gentle's fine too.
2016-07-09T09:17:32Z beach: ffmpex_: Do you already know to program in some other languages?
2016-07-09T09:17:50Z ffmpex_: Yeah, mostly C++ and bash and a few others
2016-07-09T09:18:00Z John[Lisbeth]: sounds like me
2016-07-09T09:18:07Z beach: ffmpex_: Then you should be OK with PCL.
2016-07-09T09:18:24Z ffmpex_: Alright cool. Thanks!
2016-07-09T09:18:57Z beach: ffmpex_: And before you install your Lisp etc, please consult us here.
2016-07-09T09:19:13Z beach: Otherwise, there is a more than 50% probability that you will have to do it over.
2016-07-09T09:19:52Z ffmpex_: What setup would you recommend if I'm familiar with vim and have no experience with EMACS?
2016-07-09T09:20:09Z beach: That's too bad.
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2016-07-09T09:20:37Z beach: There is SLIMV, I hear, but it is not as good as SLIME if I understand things correctly.
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2016-07-09T09:21:10Z John[Lisbeth]: ffmpex_: we can help you create an emacs config which takes you directly to the common lisp compiler
2016-07-09T09:21:16Z John[Lisbeth]: and that way it will postpone you having to learn emacs
2016-07-09T09:22:02Z John[Lisbeth]: Slime is the common lisp compiler + some emacs lisp built to make using lisp alot easier
2016-07-09T09:22:23Z John[Lisbeth]: And it's not so different from using a compiler in say visual studio
2016-07-09T09:22:33Z Bike: emacs has an "evil mode" that's meant to make things work like vi. i don't know any more about it than that though.
2016-07-09T09:23:21Z John[Lisbeth]: The thing is you don't have to learn teh vim-like features of emacs to use emacs for lisp. Though as you get familiar with emacs you will find that emacs and lisp go hand in hand
2016-07-09T09:23:22Z ffmpex_: I've heard that SLIME is almost universally superior to all other ways of writing lisp... is it worth learning coming from vim?
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2016-07-09T09:23:55Z John[Lisbeth]: well common lisp is arguably the best lisp if for no other reason that it's ansi-compliant, and that if we all pick one lisp and band together lisp will be stronger, so thus common lisp for all
2016-07-09T09:24:02Z John[Lisbeth]: and slime is one of the best most easy to use compilers for common lisp
2016-07-09T09:24:12Z John[Lisbeth]: but there are other compilers for other lisps
2016-07-09T09:24:21Z ffmpex_: I've already studied a small amount of common lisp so I would like to learn that one
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2016-07-09T09:24:26Z John[Lisbeth]: such as racket and guile for scheme and ielm for emacs lisp
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2016-07-09T09:24:46Z Bike: slime is pretty sweet, yeah
2016-07-09T09:24:57Z John[Lisbeth]: If you check the wiki in /topic there is quite a bit of documentation including some books on getting started. We both linked books from that wiki
2016-07-09T09:25:26Z John[Lisbeth]: There's also land of lisp which is a good book as well
2016-07-09T09:25:31Z ffmpex_: link to the wiki?
2016-07-09T09:25:33Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: SLIME is not a compiler for Common Lisp.
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2016-07-09T09:26:17Z ffmpex_: does SLIME use SBCL on the backend?
2016-07-09T09:26:29Z beach: ffmpex_: It can use several different implementations.
2016-07-09T09:26:45Z beach: ffmpex_: But SBCL is the one that most people here would recommend.
2016-07-09T09:27:05Z ffmpex_: Oh cool
2016-07-09T09:27:13Z phoe_krk: beach: on Linux!
2016-07-09T09:27:22Z phoe_krk: People recommend CCL as having less bugs on Windows and OS X.
2016-07-09T09:27:25Z beach: Right.
2016-07-09T09:27:33Z ffmpex_: I'm on arch linux.
2016-07-09T09:27:39Z phoe_krk: SBCL it is then.
2016-07-09T09:27:52Z phoe_krk: Also hi beach.
2016-07-09T09:27:53Z Bike: ccl's in aur if you want it.
2016-07-09T09:28:06Z beach: phoe_krk: "less stuff" but "fewer things" in general.
2016-07-09T09:28:21Z beach: Hello phoe_krk.
2016-07-09T09:28:25Z phoe_krk: Oh right. Countable vs uncountable.
2016-07-09T09:28:48Z beach: Not quite that simple, but generally speaking, yes.
2016-07-09T09:29:19Z phoe_krk: Thanks. I'll either forget it or correct myself more often on that one.
2016-07-09T09:29:35Z beach: Don't worry about it.  I'll correct you for you. :)
2016-07-09T09:29:40Z phoe_krk: Pff.
2016-07-09T09:29:44Z ffmpex_: would you recommend CCL over SBCL?
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2016-07-09T09:30:05Z beach: ffmpex_: Like I said, most people here would probably recommend SBCL.
2016-07-09T09:30:09Z Bike: for just learning lisp it doesn't matter very much
2016-07-09T09:30:13Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-07-09T09:30:23Z ffmpex_: Ok.
2016-07-09T09:30:33Z phoe_krk: For practical matters, CCL has shorter compilation times, but SBCL produces somewhat faster/more optimized code.
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2016-07-09T09:30:36Z beach: ffmpex_: It is also the one that most people here are most familiar with, so if you see some obscure error message, you are more likely to get help.
2016-07-09T09:30:51Z phoe_krk: But that's nothing of importance when you're just learning it.
2016-07-09T09:30:59Z phoe_krk: Also what beach just said.
2016-07-09T09:31:10Z ffmpex_: Ok I've got sbcl and emacs installed. Is there a guide on how to set up slime?
2016-07-09T09:31:18Z phoe_krk: Yes.
2016-07-09T09:31:21Z beach: ffmpex_: Install with using Quicklisp.
2016-07-09T09:31:28Z John[Lisbeth]: what about mepla?
2016-07-09T09:31:34Z phoe_krk: John[Lisbeth]: in a moment.
2016-07-09T09:31:41Z phoe_krk: ffmpex_: 1) Fire up terminal.
2016-07-09T09:31:41Z beach: ffmpex_: Did you install SBCL from binaries on Sourceforge?
2016-07-09T09:31:55Z ffmpex_: No I installed it through pamcan
2016-07-09T09:31:57Z ffmpex_: *pacman
2016-07-09T09:32:01Z phoe_krk: 2) Fire up sbcl in the terminal.
2016-07-09T09:32:16Z beach: ffmpex_: You need to make sure that the SBCL version is sufficiently recent.
2016-07-09T09:32:21Z Bike: the sbcl in the arch repos is... 1.3.6? it should be ok
2016-07-09T09:32:23Z phoe_krk: 3) Open up a web browser, navigate to https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ and download the quicklisp.lisp file.
2016-07-09T09:32:43Z phoe_krk: beach: arch linux is fairly close to the bleeding edge. There's usually little need to worry about it.
2016-07-09T09:32:53Z beach: Good to know.
2016-07-09T09:33:01Z phoe_krk: 4) Move the quicklisp.lisp file to ~ so there's easy access to it.
2016-07-09T09:33:22Z phoe_krk: 5) In SBCL, type (load "~/quicklisp.lisp") and hit Enter.
2016-07-09T09:33:48Z phoe_krk: 6) I don't remember the command you need to run afterwards, but I think that quicklisp installer prints it for you. First go with setup, then go with add-to-init-file.
2016-07-09T09:34:09Z phoe_krk: 7) Once you have Quicklisp loaded and installed, go with (ql:quickload :slime)
2016-07-09T09:34:23Z beach: slime-helper?
2016-07-09T09:34:24Z beach: No?
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2016-07-09T09:34:32Z phoe_krk: 8) Add the stuff that it tells you to add to Emacs's ~/.emacs.d/init.el file.
2016-07-09T09:34:34Z phoe_krk: Oh right. slime-helper.
2016-07-09T09:34:47Z phoe_krk: There's no :slime in Quicklisp. Thanks, beach, I always forget about that one.
2016-07-09T09:35:23Z Bike: quicklisp-slime-helper actually
2016-07-09T09:35:24Z ffmpex_: It threw errors on (ql:quickload :slime) and (ql:quickload :slime-helper)
2016-07-09T09:35:31Z phoe_krk: ...goodness
2016-07-09T09:35:40Z phoe_krk: whatever Bike said then
2016-07-09T09:35:40Z Bike: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
2016-07-09T09:35:44Z Bike: sorry 4 confusion
2016-07-09T09:35:51Z phoe_krk: this name is way too obscure.
2016-07-09T09:35:52Z ffmpex_: Oh ok that one worked.
2016-07-09T09:36:01Z phoe_krk: It'll compile compile compile and finish.
2016-07-09T09:36:09Z phoe_krk: 9) Ctrl+D out of SBCL and terminal. Run Emacs.
2016-07-09T09:36:27Z phoe_krk: A) Hit Alt-x (which is noted as M-x in emacs) and type slime. Hit Enter.
2016-07-09T09:36:33Z Bike: in the future, you can use ql:system-apropos to find things. like, (ql:system-apropos "slime") => stuff, stuff, quicklisp-slime-helper, swank
2016-07-09T09:37:22Z beach: phoe_krk: The correct version of what you just did should be written down on a web page somewhere so it won't have to be repeated.
2016-07-09T09:37:43Z phoe_krk: beach: Gimme a moment to stop munching on food. I'll CLiki it.
2016-07-09T09:37:57Z beach: No rush, but yeah, good idea.
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2016-07-09T09:38:31Z ffmpex_: Hitting alt-x gives me a message "Buffer is read-only: #<buffer *GNU Emacs*>" and doesn't let me type in "emacs"
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2016-07-09T09:39:11Z phoe_krk: Ouch.
2016-07-09T09:39:20Z phoe_krk: Are you hitting left Alt?
2016-07-09T09:39:21Z reepca: alt-x here meaning "press x while alt is held down", not "press alt then x"
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2016-07-09T09:40:48Z ffmpex_: Yeah left alt and I am holding it down and pressing x
2016-07-09T09:41:08Z beach: Try ESC followed by x instead then.
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2016-07-09T09:41:31Z ffmpex_: Whoa
2016-07-09T09:41:33Z beach: Or C-[ followed by x which is what I do to save a few milliseconds.
2016-07-09T09:41:33Z ffmpex_: I think that one worked
2016-07-09T09:41:40Z ffmpex_: the escape then x
2016-07-09T09:41:54Z ffmpex_: I've got a blue CL-USER> prompt
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2016-07-09T09:42:01Z beach: Excellent!
2016-07-09T09:42:02Z John[Lisbeth]: remember ctrl + g cancels any command you have open
2016-07-09T09:42:14Z phoe_krk: beach: http://www.jonathanfischer.net/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/
2016-07-09T09:42:17Z phoe_krk: Someone already did it!
2016-07-09T09:42:29Z phoe_krk: And it's right in the Getting Started CLiki division.
2016-07-09T09:42:37Z beach: ffmpex_: Now you can type forms, like (+ 3 5) followed by RETURN.
2016-07-09T09:42:52Z reepca: does arch linux do something special with alt key presses? I know on ubuntu quick alt presses open up a search window...
2016-07-09T09:43:07Z ffmpex_: Whoa that's awesome!
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2016-07-09T09:43:14Z Bike: no. alt x works for me normally.
2016-07-09T09:43:15Z ffmpex_: No Arch doesn't do anything special with alts by default
2016-07-09T09:43:29Z phoe_krk: Then it's weird that your Alt doesn't work as expected.
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2016-07-09T09:43:36Z ffmpex_: xterm might be the problem
2016-07-09T09:43:51Z phoe_krk: Oh! Are you running it in the console?
2016-07-09T09:43:59Z ffmpex_: Yeah
2016-07-09T09:44:04Z Bike: should still work...
2016-07-09T09:44:17Z ffmpex_: is there a graphical version?
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2016-07-09T09:44:26Z Bike: yeah, the "emacs" package is.
2016-07-09T09:44:29Z phoe_krk: Yes, there is.
2016-07-09T09:44:31Z Bike: you installed "emacs-nox", i guess?
2016-07-09T09:44:31Z phoe_krk: Hey, wait.
2016-07-09T09:44:43Z phoe_krk: xterm screws my left alt up!
2016-07-09T09:44:47Z Bike: or ran emacs -nowindow, or whatever it is.
2016-07-09T09:44:57Z phoe_krk: There is an issue.
2016-07-09T09:45:12Z ffmpex_: Oh yeah it is emacs-nox. I installed it a while back and forgot about it but emacs was still in my path
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2016-07-09T09:45:41Z phoe_krk: Welp. You have two main choices for GUI: emacs for GTK look and emacs-lucid for... well, the "classical" look.
2016-07-09T09:45:56Z ffmpex_: is the other version of emacs significantly easier to use or is it basically the same?
2016-07-09T09:46:01Z Bike: it's basically the same
2016-07-09T09:46:24Z ffmpex_: Ok I think I'll be fine with the console version then
2016-07-09T09:46:24Z Bike: it can render images and stuff, not really a huge deal for programming
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2016-07-09T09:46:32Z ffmpex_: Oh that's cool
2016-07-09T09:46:35Z phoe_krk: Other than GTK providing Emacs with things like open file dialog.
2016-07-09T09:46:50Z phoe_krk: Bike: lucid can render images as well.
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2016-07-09T09:47:06Z phoe_krk: I can provide you with a screenshot of my emacs-lucid running nyan-mode to prove it.
2016-07-09T09:47:08Z Bike: i don't know what lucid is but i was assuming it was graphical
2016-07-09T09:47:35Z ffmpex_: Lol nyan-mode?
2016-07-09T09:48:03Z Bike: xterm interprets M-x as ø. what the heck, that's not even what altgr-x is
2016-07-09T09:48:28Z Bike: well, you could just use another emulator, of course
2016-07-09T09:48:53Z ffmpex_: Huh. I think I might do that. Is the alt key used a lot in emacs?
2016-07-09T09:48:57Z Bike: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xterm#Fix_the_.27Alt.27_key oh, there you go then.
2016-07-09T09:49:07Z Bike: yes, it is.
2016-07-09T09:49:08Z phoe_krk: ffmpex_: it is.
2016-07-09T09:49:25Z phoe_krk: Bike: http://i.imgur.com/k7EKrWs.png
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2016-07-09T09:50:00Z Bike: wait, emacs-lucid is xemacs?
2016-07-09T09:50:04Z Bike: this is so complicated
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2016-07-09T09:50:09Z phoe_krk: No no!
2016-07-09T09:50:11Z phoe_krk: It's not xemacs.
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2016-07-09T09:50:14Z phoe_krk: It's emacs-lusic.
2016-07-09T09:50:16Z phoe_krk: lucid.
2016-07-09T09:50:35Z Bike: argh
2016-07-09T09:50:36Z phoe_krk: It's the same emacs using a different graphical frontend. Meaning, no GTK.
2016-07-09T09:50:42Z ffmpex_: Ok I'll see if I can fix the alt key on xterm
2016-07-09T09:51:22Z Bike: "a graphical user interface based on the old XEmacs-style Lucid widget set" geez
2016-07-09T09:51:44Z phoe_krk: ffmpex_: http://askubuntu.com/questions/442644/how-to-make-xterm-to-send-the-alt-key-to-emacs-as-meta
2016-07-09T09:51:49Z phoe_krk: The first thing that came up in Google.
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2016-07-09T09:54:20Z phoe_krk: Seems that archwiki suggests the same thing.
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2016-07-09T09:54:41Z ffmpex_: Brb restarting X
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2016-07-09T09:56:17Z Bike: i don't think you even need xrdb, let alone a total restart :|
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2016-07-09T09:57:59Z ffmpex_: That didn't seem to fix it..
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2016-07-09T09:59:18Z ffmpex_: Oh wait, fixed a typo and restarted X again and that made it work
2016-07-09T10:00:40Z ffmpex_: Is there a way to enable mouse input for emacs in console mode?
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2016-07-09T10:01:18Z Bike: uh, i think you need something called gpm
2016-07-09T10:02:05Z ffmpex_: I think I have that. Mouse input works in vim
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2016-07-09T10:11:12Z ffmpex_: Thanks for your help Bike beach and phoe_krk! I've got slime set up and it appears to be working now
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2016-07-09T11:19:02Z John[Lisbeth]: I think writing a blogpost would be a good idea as someone suggested earlier
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2016-07-09T12:05:09Z phoe_krk: ffmpex_: no problem!
2016-07-09T12:05:13Z phoe_krk: bbl
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2016-07-09T13:46:43Z John[Lisbeth]: Is there a channel for people who are writing their own compiler/interpreter for the first time?
2016-07-09T13:46:58Z John[Lisbeth]: I think I know enough bash now to write one
2016-07-09T13:47:19Z John[Lisbeth]: I think there was like a toy lisps channel or something
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2016-07-09T13:55:42Z edgar-rft: John[Lisbeth]: there is ##lisp for all kinds of lisp or #gherkin, what is a lisp interpreter written in bash version 4, see <https://github.com/alandipert/gherkin>
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2016-07-09T14:00:18Z edgar-rft: John[Lisbeth]: there is also #friendly-coders for all kinds of programming languages, what is more active than ##lisp or #gherkin
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2016-07-09T14:00:51Z mrottenkolber: (subtypep '(unsigned-byte 8) 'byte) → NIL
2016-07-09T14:00:53Z mrottenkolber: :-( ?
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2016-07-09T14:01:54Z mrottenkolber: oh byte is not in the standard, I see
2016-07-09T14:02:21Z beach: Right.  BYTE is not a defined type.
2016-07-09T14:03:16Z beach: (subtypep '(unsighed-byte 8) '+) gives the same result.
2016-07-09T14:04:28Z mrottenkolber: yeah I often confuse symbols defined by the implementation with standard types (signed-byte in this case)
2016-07-09T14:04:43Z mrottenkolber: I will be less lazy in my next life
2016-07-09T14:05:21Z beach: Laziness is a virtue in computer science and software development.
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2016-07-09T14:07:31Z mrottenkolber: absolutely agree, still I shouldn't spam #lisp if I could just as well query a search enngine
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2016-07-09T14:12:56Z reepca: if I have some directory /foo/bar/woohoo/ and I call (directory #P"/foo/bar/woohoo/*"), it should return a list of all pathnames in that directory, right?
2016-07-09T14:13:31Z mrottenkolber: reepca: no
2016-07-09T14:13:41Z mrottenkolber: reepca: its a bit more... differentiated
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2016-07-09T14:14:15Z jackdaniel: cl-fad has map-directory I think
2016-07-09T14:14:21Z jackdaniel: or something of similar name
2016-07-09T14:14:49Z reepca: supposing I wanted to use just stuff in the standard, how could I do it (to get that same effect)?
2016-07-09T14:15:17Z jackdaniel: reepca: maybe #P"/foo/bar/woohoo/*.*"
2016-07-09T14:15:20Z mrottenkolber: reepca: #p"*.*" means all files
2016-07-09T14:15:24Z therik: whoaa, concurrent  programming is hard :/
2016-07-09T14:15:43Z mrottenkolber: therik: I recommend CSP
2016-07-09T14:15:44Z Xach: reepca: what happens varies by implementation. some include directories in *.*, some don't.
2016-07-09T14:16:41Z Xach: and symlinks are often also an issue
2016-07-09T14:16:46Z therik: mrottenkolber: i have lparallel, but I *need* to share memory between threads, so I'm down to sb-threads...
2016-07-09T14:17:07Z jackdaniel: therik: lparallel shares memory between threads I think
2016-07-09T14:17:19Z jackdaniel: because it works on top of bordeaux-threads, which (in case of sbcl) work on top of sb-threads
2016-07-09T14:17:46Z mrottenkolber: therik: you can pass pointers around using message passing
2016-07-09T14:18:19Z therik: ok, maybe i'm doing it wrong
2016-07-09T14:19:43Z mrottenkolber: therik: send pointer == free, receive pointer == lock
2016-07-09T14:19:44Z mrottenkolber: message passing is not always the right model, but it might make sense to use it to express the algorithm correctly before optimizing for performance
2016-07-09T14:20:40Z mrottenkolber: therik: what implementation are you using? most CL impls I used have shared-memory threads by default
2016-07-09T14:21:24Z therik: mrottenkolber: what I meant by shared memory is that my task is not easily split-able... at least I thought it isn't, you gave me some ideas
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2016-07-09T14:22:54Z therik: i've got thousands of doubly linked lists in an array and I need to move elements from those dll's to different dll's. order of elements in dll doesn't matter, but I need to lock two lists to remove element and add it to another
2016-07-09T14:23:33Z mrottenkolber: give every dll a lock?
2016-07-09T14:23:41Z therik: mrottenkolber: done...
2016-07-09T14:24:12Z mrottenkolber: always hold a dll's lock while using it?
2016-07-09T14:24:44Z mrottenkolber:  measure if more threads == more throughput
2016-07-09T14:24:52Z cluck: implement a poor man's journaling
2016-07-09T14:25:02Z mrottenkolber: cluck: :D
2016-07-09T14:25:02Z therik: on top of that, there's unspecified amount of readers, so now I'm working on read-write-lock, that will allow all the readers to go through, but count them and when the writers want to reshuffle elements between dll's, the read-write-lock has to stop future readers comming through and let the writer go through once all readers are gone
2016-07-09T14:25:28Z therik: i'm complaining cause I'm writing unit tests for that read-write-lock
2016-07-09T14:25:45Z cluck: mrottenkolber: if it's good enough for databases and filesystems.. :P
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2016-07-09T14:28:15Z therik: so reader requests a lock, then sends a message to writer, writer requests a lock, thus writer is blocked... but how do I reliably unit test that the writer is indeed blocked? I can't communicate with the writer, cause it's blocked.. and there are many similar issues, I can't see a solution to, except for a crystal ball...
2016-07-09T14:29:06Z therik: i think i'll figure it out, but my brain is melting a bit..
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2016-07-09T14:30:41Z mrottenkolber: you can't mix locks and message passing, very bad idea
2016-07-09T14:30:54Z therik: mrottenkolber: why?
2016-07-09T14:31:12Z TMA: therik: if it is possible at all, try to log the actions in the threads themselves
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2016-07-09T14:31:32Z mrottenkolber: therik: same reason you wouldn't mix raw pointers and functional programming, it defeats the whole point
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2016-07-09T14:32:13Z TMA: therik: of course, you need a correctly serializable logging facility, which has to be tested -- and then you have the problem that the locking and loggin is not atomic
2016-07-09T14:33:45Z mrottenkolber: therik: you implement message passing using locks (now the only locks are the mailbox locks), and then implement protocols on top of MP: e.g. if you receive a message that contains a pointer you could say the receiver *owns* the pointer, and once you send a message with that pointer you could say the sender *frees* the pointer (transfers owndership to the receiver).
2016-07-09T14:34:30Z mrottenkolber: e.g. the protocol would be that threads are not allowed to use pointers they have sent and it would be memory safe
2016-07-09T14:36:35Z therik: mrottenkolber: wow, thanks for this idea
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2016-07-09T14:39:51Z mrottenkolber: therik: I strongly recommend reading “Communicating Sequential Processes”, it gives you a technique to reason about concurrency
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2016-07-09T14:41:08Z mrottenkolber: therik: I only “skimmed” it myself and didn't understand everything (its quite theoretical) but it really makes light in the dark^^
2016-07-09T14:41:39Z mrottenkolber: its a thin book though, only takes a couple days to get the basic ideas
2016-07-09T14:49:04Z moore33: Philisophical clos question: if you define a generic function whose effective method runs the all the methods of the class and superclass, is it better to define them as :after methods, or with method combination :progn?
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2016-07-09T14:52:40Z beach: moore33: I would use PROGN method combination for that.
2016-07-09T14:53:20Z beach: I do that occasionally, actuallly.
2016-07-09T14:53:24Z beach: actually
2016-07-09T14:53:50Z moore33: beach: Yeah... I'm leaning towards that.
2016-07-09T14:54:27Z beach: I frequently need a different default though, I forget now, :MOST-SPECIFIC-FIRST maybe?
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2016-07-09T14:54:40Z moore33: That is the default.
2016-07-09T14:54:46Z beach: Oh, OK.
2016-07-09T14:54:50Z moore33: I didn't know that; I'm reading the page in the Hyperspec :)
2016-07-09T14:55:32Z beach: One uses it so seldom that one has to look it up every time.  It's normal.
2016-07-09T14:55:54Z moore33: I also learned today that slots with allocation :class are shared with superclasses of a class. I had a completely different mental model of that.
2016-07-09T14:57:21Z beach: I knew that because I implemented CLOS. :)
2016-07-09T14:57:33Z moore33: beach: Heh, that does help.
2016-07-09T14:57:54Z moore33 always thought that the shared slot "lived" in the class metaobject.
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2016-07-09T14:59:04Z beach: It lives in the effective slot definition.
2016-07-09T14:59:17Z beach: Or, rather, that's one way of doing it.
2016-07-09T14:59:53Z moore33: beach: Yeah, I had to fiddle around in the repl and slime inspector to convince myself of that.
2016-07-09T15:00:36Z moore33: It never really clicked that effective slot definitions for slots not named by a class would be shared with the superclasses.
2016-07-09T15:01:17Z moore33: Hmm, I guess that is only true for slots with allocation :class.
2016-07-09T15:02:49Z beach: Right, because the "same slot" in different classes can have a different offset in the instance.
2016-07-09T15:02:55Z moore33: Yup
2016-07-09T15:03:47Z beach: ... and the effective slot definition is where that offset is recorded.
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2016-07-09T15:36:32Z therik: what is the difference between loop's append/appending, nconc/nconcing, and collect/collecting ?
2016-07-09T15:36:51Z therik: i mean, the difference between the -ing and without -ing
2016-07-09T15:37:18Z SAL9000: AFAIK there is no difference -- the two versions are available for those who want to make their LOOPs sound like a sentence
2016-07-09T15:38:36Z therik: SAL9000: ah ok, thanks :)
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2016-07-09T16:34:05Z sharkteeth: this is kind of a broad question so any input is appreciated. i'm working through the project euler problems to help with my lisp learning and just finished #8, which was to find 13 adjacent digits in a 1000 digit number with the highest product and return that product. my solution is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320060 (if the formatting/indentation is wrong please let me know). is there a more "lisp-y" way to approach
2016-07-09T16:34:05Z sharkteeth:  this problem? also, is there a way to get around the "dummy instructions" on lines 31 and 41?
2016-07-09T16:35:21Z sharkteeth: the variable *series* is the 1000 digit number, i just set it as a global variable so i wouldn't have to copy/paste it during testing
2016-07-09T16:39:53Z Grue`: your formatting/indentation is wrong ;)
2016-07-09T16:40:31Z sharkteeth: are the indents too many spaces?
2016-07-09T16:40:40Z Grue`: and, I don't know about "lispy" way to approach, but the efficient way to approach is different
2016-07-09T16:40:52Z Grue`: you shouldn't need to multiply 13 numbers each time
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2016-07-09T16:41:47Z Grue`: though this number is pretty short so it doesnt matter
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2016-07-09T16:42:47Z sharkteeth: what's more efficient then?
2016-07-09T16:43:45Z moore33: As you move through the digits, divide by the one that's dropping out and multiply by the new one.
2016-07-09T16:43:47Z Grue`: that would be Project Euler spoilers
2016-07-09T16:43:47Z sharkteeth: i can't think of a way to do it off the top of my head that won't involve multiplying 13 numbers unless you have a product, store it, then divide off the first number and multiply the next one
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2016-07-09T16:44:02Z moore33: sharkteeth: Jinx!
2016-07-09T16:44:05Z sharkteeth: haha
2016-07-09T16:44:27Z sharkteeth: thanks. on the indentations/formatting, what do i need to correct?
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2016-07-09T16:45:31Z sharkteeth: also is there a better way to convert the initial number to a list of digits? having to convert it 3 times to get to the list seems harder than it should be
2016-07-09T16:46:43Z moore33: Perhaps don't convert the digits to a list at all?
2016-07-09T16:46:59Z moore33: Just divide and mod to get the next digit.
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2016-07-09T16:53:41Z Grue`: sharkteeth: indentation in Lisp is context-based. two basic rules: if it's a function call, align to first argument; if it's macro/special form body, indent by 2 spaces
2016-07-09T16:53:52Z Grue`: sharkteeth: it should be done automatically by the editor
2016-07-09T16:54:19Z sharkteeth: my editor has 4 space indentation as the default i think, i'll fix it thanks
2016-07-09T16:54:27Z moore33: use emacs
2016-07-09T16:56:03Z Grue`: sharkteeth: also, initial number should be provided as a string. that way you don't need to convert it to anything, just operate with string characters
2016-07-09T16:56:45Z Grue`: function DIGIT-CHAR-P might be of use
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2016-07-09T16:58:30Z moore33: even better
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2016-07-09T17:00:28Z sharkteeth: yes i think it may be
2016-07-09T17:00:53Z sharkteeth: i haven't seen the "#\5" format yet so i'll have to read on that a bit
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2016-07-09T17:02:49Z phoe_krk: sharkteeth: it's a format for characters!
2016-07-09T17:03:15Z phoe_krk: Basically, #\something means "character 'something'".
2016-07-09T17:03:20Z phoe_krk: #\A means character A.
2016-07-09T17:03:32Z phoe_krk: #\Space means  . (A space character.)
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2016-07-09T17:03:47Z phoe_krk: #\\ means "backslash character".
2016-07-09T17:03:52Z phoe_krk: And so on.
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2016-07-09T17:11:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: #\Space
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2016-07-09T17:17:13Z sharkteeth: oh! i had no idea
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2016-07-09T17:17:30Z sharkteeth: same thing as using 'A' ?
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2016-07-09T17:18:41Z phoe_krk: There's no 'A' in Lisp.
2016-07-09T17:19:07Z phoe_krk: In C, yes. C's 'A' is an equivalent of Lisp's #\A.
2016-07-09T17:20:10Z rme: sharkteeth: Not really. In C, 'A' is a number.  #\A is a character, a distinct kind of object which is not a number.
2016-07-09T17:20:53Z phoe_krk: Oh wait, yes, it's that difference. Lisp characters and Lisp numbers are of distinct types.
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2016-07-09T17:23:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's like Python's 'A'! Ignore me I'm trolling.
2016-07-09T17:23:48Z Grue`: well, in python 'A' is also a 1-character string
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2016-07-09T17:24:54Z rme: In other words, in C, 'A' * 10 works;  in CL, you can't say (* #\A 10).  Something like (char-code #\A) is more like what 'A' would give you.
2016-07-09T17:25:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: Grue`: Yes, and so anywhere you send a character you can instead send a string.
2016-07-09T17:25:15Z phoe_krk: Ayup - character to number conversion is done through CHAR-CODE and CODE-CHAR functions.
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2016-07-09T17:31:09Z sharkteeth: makes sense
2016-07-09T17:32:34Z rme: digit-char-p is useful when you want to convert #\5 to 5.  (digit-char-p #\5) => 5.  So, you can say something like (map 'list 'digit-char-p "31415").
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2016-07-09T17:40:13Z fourier: what do people use for simple FIFO queues ?
2016-07-09T17:40:26Z fourier: anything nice and fast from quicklisp?
2016-07-09T17:41:13Z fourier: there are several of them there, but what is the standard. this data structure is essential, so I guess should be something commonly used
2016-07-09T17:42:06Z phoe_krk: fourier: JPL-QUEUES
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2016-07-09T17:42:22Z phoe_krk: Very fun and very nice.
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2016-07-09T17:44:51Z fourier: aah but it takes dependency on bordeaux-threads, which I think is too much just for a data structure
2016-07-09T17:45:26Z phoe_krk: fourier: I think it only depends on BT for synchronized queues.
2016-07-09T17:45:30Z Grue`: it seems like the kind of structure that would be useful in multi-thread environment
2016-07-09T17:45:48Z phoe_krk: You can create a synchro-queue for each kind of queue it has.
2016-07-09T17:45:57Z phoe_krk: But you don't need to.
2016-07-09T17:46:20Z phoe_krk: I doubt an usual (un)bounded FIFO queue from jplq needs anything from BT.
2016-07-09T17:47:08Z pierpa: I can paste the queue implementation that I use, if you can't find any de facto standard
2016-07-09T17:47:59Z fourier: I think I'll try jpl-queues .. thanks..
2016-07-09T17:48:36Z phoe_krk: fourier: I'm looking at the sources and I can't see BT being used anywhere.
2016-07-09T17:49:00Z phoe_krk: I think you could grab the sources, slice the synchro-queue implementation out and drop the BT dependency altogether.
2016-07-09T17:49:12Z phoe_krk: If you mind having BT loaded as you use jplq.
2016-07-09T17:49:37Z fourier: I've looked at trivial-queue as well but it is not in ql :(
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2016-07-09T17:51:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: It would be nice if there was a page showing total downloads so we wouldn't have to spend any time evaluating how good something actually is.
2016-07-09T17:51:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: That sounded better in my head.
2016-07-09T17:52:08Z fourier: Petit_Dejeuner: yes like it melpa
2016-07-09T17:52:13Z fourier: *in
2016-07-09T17:52:43Z Grue`: jsut because something is popular doesnt mean it's good
2016-07-09T17:53:03Z Grue`: see: music, tv shows, programming languages...
2016-07-09T17:53:05Z fourier: melpa site is really useful in this case. having something like this for ql could be awesome
2016-07-09T17:53:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: Grue`: Yeah, the irony of doing that for Common Lisp is pretty extreme.
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2016-07-09T17:55:02Z rme: fourier: Do you have a copy of Norvig's book PAIP?  There's a one page queue implementation in there.  In fact, I just found the source code on the net:  see http://norvig.com/paip/auxfns.lisp (search for queue).
2016-07-09T17:56:29Z sjl: yeah I've used Norvig's queues, they work okay https://bitbucket.org/sjl/bones/src/8c853f632f8c8dd9f75dc75a4bd71d8aa72b3eeb/src/utils.lisp?at=default&fileviewer=file-view-default#utils.lisp-116:158
2016-07-09T17:56:37Z sjl: jesus bitbucket
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2016-07-09T18:08:34Z therik: how do I split a number into n parts, such that sum of the parts comes to the original number and each part is an integer?
2016-07-09T18:09:06Z therik: in other words, are there some tricks to split array into n parts of roughly the same size?
2016-07-09T18:09:32Z therik: other than messing around with divisions, modulus, floors, ceils, etc?
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2016-07-09T18:10:47Z sharkteeth: i don't think there's a general solution to that since very few numbers can be divided evenly by an arbitrary number
2016-07-09T18:10:56Z sharkteeth: if any
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2016-07-09T18:11:32Z sharkteeth: past that i have nothing to add besides dividing by 'n' and making sure the result is an integer
2016-07-09T18:12:12Z Grue`: what? of course there is a solution
2016-07-09T18:12:38Z sharkteeth: maybe i'm reading the problem wrong then?
2016-07-09T18:12:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: Grue`: ofc there is! https://www.refheap.com/118feb633284bc39b81429178
2016-07-09T18:13:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: (split-number 100 5) => (96 1 1 1 1)
2016-07-09T18:13:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: All integers.
2016-07-09T18:13:21Z Bike: kind of weaksauce
2016-07-09T18:13:22Z Grue`: (n - n mod m) into m parts and then add 1 to n mod m parts
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2016-07-09T18:13:29Z sharkteeth: oh whoops, i was thinking the parts/elements had to be the same for some reason
2016-07-09T18:13:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: Nah, I'm sure this is what he meant.
2016-07-09T18:14:07Z Grue`: "roughly the same size"
2016-07-09T18:14:11Z therik: ya, they should be the same, roughly..
2016-07-09T18:14:32Z Grue`: see my solution above
2016-07-09T18:14:40Z pierpa: maybe he wants LDB?
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2016-07-09T18:15:42Z lisp461: is it possible to do the equivalent of "(loop for (a b) on lst by #'cddr collect..." using mapcar or some variant?
2016-07-09T18:15:51Z lisp461: So that it takes two arguments each time
2016-07-09T18:16:10Z Bike: you can use mapcon and subseq
2016-07-09T18:16:10Z therik: lisp461: reduce?
2016-07-09T18:16:28Z pierpa: you can't
2016-07-09T18:16:31Z therik: no, wait, sorry
2016-07-09T18:16:40Z Bike: well, not the by cddr
2016-07-09T18:16:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: You could split the list first, couldn't you?
2016-07-09T18:17:16Z Grue`: something involving mapcan
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2016-07-09T18:17:47Z Grue`: or is it mapcon? i always forget
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2016-07-09T18:20:25Z Bike: therik: http://paste.lisp.org/+6UYP probably what grue said, but modular arithmetic is hard
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2016-07-09T18:38:13Z sharkteeth: managed to get my project euler code from ~43 lines to 12
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2016-07-09T18:39:43Z sharkteeth: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320068
2016-07-09T18:39:52Z sharkteeth: not counting the constant and comments
2016-07-09T18:40:31Z sharkteeth: map, reduce, and maximize are definitely handy
2016-07-09T18:42:21Z Bike: find-max-element is max, isn't it
2016-07-09T18:43:10Z sharkteeth: apparently it is, yes
2016-07-09T18:43:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: the :key keyword argument makes everything even  more useful
2016-07-09T18:44:20Z sharkteeth: actually i guess no its not because it looks like max takes multiple numbers as arguments vs find-max-element which takes a list and steps through the list
2016-07-09T18:44:24Z sharkteeth: so its a little different?
2016-07-09T18:45:37Z Bike: apply max
2016-07-09T18:46:13Z sharkteeth: there it is
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2016-07-09T18:53:51Z ggole: They will behave differently for empty lists though
2016-07-09T18:54:15Z ggole: (Probably doesn't matter here.)
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2016-07-09T18:59:54Z sharkteeth: better practice to use (if (eq 0 (length list)) NIL [next line] (apply 'max...)) instead?
2016-07-09T19:00:11Z sharkteeth: or some other test to determine if the list is empty
2016-07-09T19:01:10Z Grue`: (when list ...) works
2016-07-09T19:02:14Z Grue`: also, (eq 0 something) might not even work, because you're not supposed to use eq for numbers
2016-07-09T19:02:50Z Grue`: (in practice it does work for small enough numbers, but don't rely on it)
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2016-07-09T19:04:16Z therik: ha, got it, thanks Grue`
2016-07-09T19:04:16Z therik: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320069
2016-07-09T19:04:29Z sharkteeth: so iirc when evaluates for t/NIL, so a non-empty list evaluates to t?
2016-07-09T19:04:33Z sharkteeth: or am i mixing something up
2016-07-09T19:04:49Z Grue`: everything non-nil is true
2016-07-09T19:05:04Z Grue`: t is just a constant
2016-07-09T19:05:09Z sharkteeth: ok i see
2016-07-09T19:05:15Z therik: empty list is NIL
2016-07-09T19:05:50Z therik: empty list is the only thing that is nil, apart of nil... (don't hurt me lispers)
2016-07-09T19:06:33Z therik: ah, non-empty list... ya, that's not nil
2016-07-09T19:06:54Z phoe_krk: sharkteeth: therik: this is one of the core differences between Common Lisp and Scheme.
2016-07-09T19:07:14Z therik: empty list is not NIL in scheme? :o
2016-07-09T19:07:20Z phoe_krk: In Scheme, () is true. In Lisp, () is false. Booleanly speaking, of course.
2016-07-09T19:07:26Z therik: how does that even work?
2016-07-09T19:07:26Z phoe_krk: Well, there's no NIL in scheme, so to speak.
2016-07-09T19:07:35Z therik: ah, scheme has booleans
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2016-07-09T19:07:39Z phoe_krk: There's #t and #f that are two booleans.
2016-07-09T19:07:39Z Grue`: there is #f
2016-07-09T19:07:48Z therik: ok, that makes sense
2016-07-09T19:08:02Z phoe_krk: Common Lisp has generalized booleans. NIL/() as false, everything else as true.
2016-07-09T19:08:11Z phoe_krk: And NIL and () are one and the same.
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2016-07-09T19:08:49Z therik: i personally like the common lisp version
2016-07-09T19:09:40Z phoe_krk: That's a matter of taste. There are people who call #t and #f redundant, and there are people who call an empty list being "false" confusing.
2016-07-09T19:10:18Z therik: i see the point in that, but empty list is literally just blank null pointer
2016-07-09T19:10:37Z phoe_krk: But, well, Common Lisp has a pretty nice method of list iteration because of it.
2016-07-09T19:10:44Z therik: so if empty list is true, that means nil has to be true, which is also confusing
2016-07-09T19:11:06Z phoe_krk: Just iterate until the list itself is false.
2016-07-09T19:11:28Z phoe_krk: Which might be a source of confusion for the uninitiated. But we're initiated, aren't we, Bruce? Members of the League of Shad---*cough cough*
2016-07-09T19:11:40Z phoe_krk: therik: again, there's no NIL in Scheme.
2016-07-09T19:11:43Z phoe_krk: I mean.
2016-07-09T19:11:44Z phoe_krk: There is.
2016-07-09T19:11:49Z Grue`: the problem with nil=empty list is when you parse json and either null is true, or empty list has to be something different from ()
2016-07-09T19:11:50Z phoe_krk: But it's just an average symbol.
2016-07-09T19:12:48Z therik: phoe_krk: so nil symbol in scheme is true?
2016-07-09T19:13:15Z phoe_krk: biwascheme> (null? 'nil)
2016-07-09T19:13:15Z phoe_krk: => #f
2016-07-09T19:13:20Z Grue`: you can assign it to #f if you want
2016-07-09T19:13:38Z Grue`: (let ((nil #f)) ...)
2016-07-09T19:13:50Z therik: biwascheme> (let ((nil #f)) nil)
2016-07-09T19:14:08Z therik: ah dumb me...
2016-07-09T19:14:23Z therik: I thought biwascheme is a bot here
2016-07-09T19:14:39Z TMA: but (eq? 'nil '()) => #f iirc
2016-07-09T19:15:26Z therik: TMA: but if () is null pointer, then you'd have to do (eq nil '()), right?
2016-07-09T19:15:28Z therik: without the quote
2016-07-09T19:16:15Z therik: it would mean nil points to (), so that you can compare (eq? stuff nil), if I understand correctly
2016-07-09T19:17:18Z TMA: therik: in common lisp (eq nil 'nil) => T
2016-07-09T19:17:54Z therik: TMA: what!?!?!
2016-07-09T19:18:10Z Bike: you didn't know that?
2016-07-09T19:18:23Z therik: no..
2016-07-09T19:18:36Z therik: i thought it's the printer converting () to nil
2016-07-09T19:18:48Z therik: where () is empty pointer
2016-07-09T19:18:52Z TMA: therik: in a sense equating NIL and null pointer only gets you so far as an analogy. NIL is a symbol with constant value NIL, denoting both falsehood and empty list
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2016-07-09T19:19:13Z Bike: "pointer" isn't really a useful concept
2016-07-09T19:19:16Z Bike: for lisp
2016-07-09T19:19:37Z therik: isn't every variable a pointer in lisp?
2016-07-09T19:19:39Z Bike: and, well, null pointer, million dollar mistake, etc.
2016-07-09T19:19:49Z Bike: variables are variables.
2016-07-09T19:19:54Z TMA: therik: as a special feature of the reader () is read as NIL
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2016-07-09T19:20:10Z Grue`: how variables are stored is implementation detail
2016-07-09T19:21:34Z TMA: therik: each place holds a value -- HOW it does so is an implementation detail; that being said, most boxed values are indeed stored as a pointer usually
2016-07-09T19:23:14Z therik: ok, maybe I might stop assuming and start reading..
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2016-07-09T19:51:40Z therik: uff, working... http://paste.lisp.org/display/320069#1
2016-07-09T19:52:08Z Bike: was my solution not sufficient
2016-07-09T19:53:55Z Grue`: this one is Enterprise
2016-07-09T19:55:12Z therik: Bike: actually, it is, I tried it before, I don't know why it gave me strange results
2016-07-09T19:55:21Z therik: now I see it works
2016-07-09T19:55:47Z Bike: phew
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2016-07-09T20:12:23Z therik: Bike: i think i like your solution more though... i'm gonna use this : http://paste.lisp.org/display/320069#2
2016-07-09T20:13:40Z Bike: cool
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2016-07-09T20:47:18Z fourier: how do I specify the type of array elements which are conses of integer and byte-arrays ? will the :element-type '(cons fixnum (array (unsigned-byte 8))) work?
2016-07-09T20:48:14Z Bike: it will (well, assuming you mean integer rather than fixnum), but you should know that will likely be discarded
2016-07-09T20:49:08Z fourier: why ?
2016-07-09T20:50:23Z Bike: because there's no reason for the implementation to have a specific way of allocating storage for such a specific type
2016-07-09T20:51:05Z Bike: well, the compiler might keep track of it a bit for accesses
2016-07-09T20:51:22Z fourier: ok makes sense
2016-07-09T20:52:31Z fourier: when I guess just '(cons * *) will work
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2016-07-09T20:52:50Z phoe_krk: Isn't 'cons equivalent to '(cons * *) when it comes to types?
2016-07-09T20:52:55Z Bike: yes.
2016-07-09T20:53:13Z phoe_krk: then it's a pair of parens less.
2016-07-09T20:53:19Z phoe_krk: (they're expensive nowadays.)
2016-07-09T20:53:40Z fourier: lol
2016-07-09T20:53:59Z Bike: the kind of situation that type might help you in is like (aref (cdr (aref array m)) n); the compiler might have the outer aref be for a byte array, eliding a check of the array-element-type and such
2016-07-09T20:54:30Z knobo1: The best we can do with unix signal is to pretend they don't exist.
2016-07-09T20:54:56Z phoe_krk: knobo1: ?
2016-07-09T20:55:30Z knobo1: to dificult to work with.
2016-07-09T20:55:40Z phoe_krk: knobo1: what's your issue?
2016-07-09T20:56:40Z knobo1: My issue is probably that I give up to fast.
2016-07-09T20:57:00Z knobo1: I was trying to handle them in sbcl.
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2016-07-09T20:58:11Z fourier: maybe I'm doing it wrong at the first place: i'm trying to optimize the sort of array of conses by car of cons. the profiler shows me what the #'< I've supplied as an argument to sort goes to generic #<any method, which after series of calls transformed to #<integer. I know what the CAR of my cons is always an integer and would like to help the compiler to reduce the call stack
2016-07-09T20:59:08Z phoe_krk: fourier: a wild guess is that it would be easier to create a pair of arrays, one of integers and another of arrays (unsigned-byte 8) and operate on this.
2016-07-09T20:59:21Z phoe_krk: These would get optimized well I guess.
2016-07-09T20:59:55Z phoe_krk: At the cost of needing another symbol for the other array and perhaps writing a custom accessor.
2016-07-09T21:00:14Z phoe_krk: You could create that accessor so it grabs a CAR from one array and CDR from another array and returns a cons.
2016-07-09T21:00:32Z phoe_krk: And a writer that accepts a cons and writes its CAR to the first array and CDR to the second array.
2016-07-09T21:00:36Z fourier: phoe_krk: then I loose the connection between arrays after the sort
2016-07-09T21:00:45Z phoe_krk: fourier: ouch. Right.
2016-07-09T21:01:30Z phoe_krk: Well.
2016-07-09T21:01:53Z phoe_krk: Might depend on what operations are used the most in your code.
2016-07-09T21:02:19Z phoe_krk: You could "zip" the array into a new one, sort that one, and then recreate the two ones by writing values from the sorted zipped array back into the two.
2016-07-09T21:02:30Z phoe_krk: But that's going to cost you more than sorting a single array.
2016-07-09T21:02:37Z fourier: exactly
2016-07-09T21:02:44Z phoe_krk: But again, accessing an unoptimized array will cost you more than accessing two optimized ones.
2016-07-09T21:03:02Z phoe_krk: So my wild guess is write both and measure how much time is spent on accesses and sorts.
2016-07-09T21:03:09Z phoe_krk: s/write/implement/
2016-07-09T21:03:18Z phoe_krk: Because this isn't an easy question to answer without any data.
2016-07-09T21:03:40Z phoe_krk: Maybe, *maybe* the compiler will be smart enough.
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2016-07-09T21:05:59Z Bike: fourier: you could pass (lambda (x y) (declare (integer x y)) (< x y)) or something.
2016-07-09T21:06:39Z phoe_krk: Bike: what issue does this solve?
2016-07-09T21:06:39Z fourier: Bike: now I'm doing (sort index #'< :key (lambda (x) (the integer (car x)))) but it doesn't help
2016-07-09T21:07:21Z Bike: phoe_krk: fourier said that a generic < is being passed, so each comparison will have to dispatch.
2016-07-09T21:07:29Z fourier: Bike: hm I'll try it
2016-07-09T21:07:29Z phoe_krk: I see.
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2016-07-09T21:07:42Z Bike: fourier: the compiler's probably not smart enough to realize that implies that the < is integer only
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2016-07-09T21:10:48Z fourier: Bike: good! that helped actually, the sort transformed by the compiler to SYSTEM::SORT-SIMPLE-VECTOR and the time reduced. Thanks
2016-07-09T21:11:11Z Bike: that's... i have no idea why that would happen, but hey, cool.
2016-07-09T21:11:53Z phoe_krk: fourier: how do you check which function gets called?
2016-07-09T21:12:46Z fourier: phoe_krk: profiler shows me where it spends its time (I'm using LW)
2016-07-09T21:12:47Z Grue`: i think PCL discusses this, sometimes both arguments and output result need to be declared to be optimized
2016-07-09T21:12:59Z phoe_krk: fourier: I see.
2016-07-09T21:14:13Z phoe_krk: Night!
2016-07-09T21:15:16Z fourier: bb!
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2016-07-09T21:39:42Z sharkteeth: is there a way to get a loop collect to "skip" an iteration if some conditional is false?
2016-07-09T21:40:07Z Bike: you can put collect in a conditional clause
2016-07-09T21:40:12Z Bike: "unless condition collect whatever"
2016-07-09T21:40:41Z sharkteeth: i'll give that a shot thanks, it's a condition inside the innermost of a series of nested loops
2016-07-09T21:41:09Z sharkteeth: so i have (loop <...> collect (loop <...> collect (loop <...> collect (when <...>)))
2016-07-09T21:41:19Z sharkteeth: and i get a ton of NIL's in the resulting list
2016-07-09T21:41:42Z Bike: (loop <...> when <...> collect <...>) then
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2016-07-09T21:44:37Z phoe_krk: (remove-if #'null ...)
2016-07-09T21:44:43Z phoe_krk whistles, goes back to sleep
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2016-07-09T21:59:55Z therik: so, if it's bad practice to use locks together with message passing, is it advisable to use semaphore with message passing?
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2016-07-09T22:07:44Z sharkteeth: Bike if you wouldn't mind having a look at this, i'm still having some trouble http://paste.lisp.org/display/320077
2016-07-09T22:08:46Z sharkteeth: i think i'm using collect wrong on the 2 outer loops but can't figure out how to retain the collected list from the innermost loop without them
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2016-07-09T22:09:03Z sharkteeth: i'm digging through the hyperspec still but coming up short
2016-07-09T22:13:49Z therik: sharkteeth: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320077#1
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2016-07-09T22:15:54Z sharkteeth: it works perfectly, but can you explain why it does and collect doesn't in this case? i have the CLHS open and it says that nconc is for concatenating lists together, but shouldn't collect do the same thing in this case
2016-07-09T22:16:39Z sharkteeth: because nconc ignores nil?
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2016-07-09T22:17:07Z therik: sharkteeth: when the third loop doesn't any results, it will return empty list, and the loops above then treat those empty lists as values
2016-07-09T22:17:40Z therik: the two loops say: collect whatever the inner loop returns into a list... so if the inner loop returns nil, it will stuff whole bunch of empty lists in a list
2016-07-09T22:18:37Z sharkteeth: got it, thanks. is there a way to make a more elegant single-line loop instead of three nested loops? the only way i've been able to get multiple iteration variables is if they're incremented in parallel instead of one at a time
2016-07-09T22:18:40Z therik: nconc/append is different from collect, instead of stuffing things in a list, it joins things as if they were list... and they indeed have to be lists or it will fail
2016-07-09T22:18:52Z sharkteeth: gotcha
2016-07-09T22:19:24Z therik: also, be careful that nconc will actually destroy its parameters, it modifies the list, doesn't create new one like append
2016-07-09T22:19:42Z therik: but since you're just creating those lists right there, it doesn't matter probably
2016-07-09T22:19:57Z therik: for serial iteration, well, if you figure it out, let me know
2016-07-09T22:20:14Z therik: emm, not serial, but you know... combinations..
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2016-07-09T22:23:13Z therik: what are the advantages of xach's timer over sb-ext:timer?
2016-07-09T22:27:20Z XachX_: therik: none. It is older and was copied into sbcl
2016-07-09T22:27:54Z therik: XachX_: thanks :)
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2016-07-09T23:19:28Z pillton: Is it possible to have an iterate driver insert a symbol-macrolet?
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2016-07-09T23:32:54Z mejja: what is an "iterative driver" ?
2016-07-09T23:34:21Z pierpa: iterate driver, they wrote
2016-07-09T23:34:48Z pierpa: I guess something related to the ITERATE macro, maybe
2016-07-09T23:35:41Z mejja: Guessing is not good enough..
2016-07-09T23:36:53Z pierpa: since we are in the lisp channel, an ITERATE macro does exist for CL, this macro has iterate drivers, this looks a good enough guess for me.
2016-07-09T23:37:12Z pierpa: though, I don't know the answer :)
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2016-07-09T23:41:12Z pillton: Yes. There is a system called iterate. https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/
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2016-07-09T23:44:17Z pillton: I don't think it can be done.
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2016-07-09T23:46:15Z pierpa: probably the macrolet will not have the scope you want
2016-07-09T23:46:38Z pierpa: *the symbol-macrolet
2016-07-09T23:47:33Z therik: is it ok design to call join-thread but not actually let the child threads finish and just keep the join-thread hanging there for hours/days/weeks?
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2016-07-09T23:50:15Z therik: the idea is, I have a connection thread that that spawns two threads for transmitting and receiving messages... but now the connection thread is no use to me, except it has to stay inside the scope of with-open-socket..
2016-07-09T23:51:36Z pillton: Do you really need threads? Can you get away with using non-blocking or asynchronous I/O?
2016-07-09T23:52:06Z therik: pillton: i don't know how to do that
2016-07-09T23:52:25Z pillton: Well there are libraries to help you do it.
2016-07-09T23:52:31Z pillton: iolib and basic-binary-ipc.
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2016-07-09T23:53:07Z therik: i use iolib
2016-07-09T23:55:37Z pillton: I haven't used iolib. I have used basic-binary-ipc though.
2016-07-09T23:56:34Z pillton: iolib should have a multiplexing function e.g. poll, select which allows a single process to block until an event occurs on one or more sockets.
2016-07-09T23:58:49Z therik: pillton: I'm simply using read-char and read-sequence to get data from stream from iolib..
2016-07-09T23:58:56Z therik: but that's blocking, hence threads
2016-07-09T23:59:23Z therik: i'll have to investigate if there's something that'll notify me when data comes
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2016-07-10T00:01:30Z pillton: You can do it without using threads. It is much simpler.
2016-07-10T00:02:29Z therik: cool!
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2016-07-10T00:17:40Z therik: pillton: you're right, there's non-blocking io in iolib..
2016-07-10T00:17:50Z therik: thanks for the info, this is good news
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2016-07-10T01:30:17Z pillton: therik: Great.
2016-07-10T01:31:34Z pillton: I would pay more attention to the non-blocking API. The non-blocking API can be used to implement synchronous and asynchronous I/O.
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2016-07-10T01:33:49Z pillton: My apologies for going AWOL. My three year old son went thermonuclear because I wasn't as eager as he was to mow the lawn.
2016-07-10T01:34:13Z Bike: that seems like a childishness to encourage
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2016-07-10T02:19:58Z pillton: In response to my previous question, there is an internal function in iterate, called add-loop-body-wrapper, which you can use to wrap the loop body.
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2016-07-10T05:25:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-10T05:29:07Z lexicall: Good afternoon!
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2016-07-10T05:45:02Z rumbler31: i've spent more time than I care to admit trying to write a function to convert pcm linear to pcm ulaw.  I've used a few different c and java functions as references and I can't seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong.  while the description on wikipedia seems to be clear enough, i figured parroting c code would be the fastest way to get through this and move on
2016-07-10T05:45:03Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320094
2016-07-10T05:46:19Z rumbler31: but i was clearly wrong.  at this point i'm going to try using audacity to convert a reference file then just array-map the correct values because I am clearly not as capable as I thought
2016-07-10T05:46:54Z rumbler31: I would appreciate anyone taking a look to see if there are any obvious errors.  i've been staring at these functions for hours
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2016-07-10T07:31:51Z internet_cafe: fouric: how are the lisp projects going
2016-07-10T07:35:31Z ZombieChicken: Anyone know of a good comparison of sbcl, ecl, and clisp?
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2016-07-10T07:43:25Z beach: ZombieChicken: Sure, what do you want to know?
2016-07-10T07:44:50Z ZombieChicken: beach: Just a rough comparison. I'm pondering trying to work with CLASH and seeing how I like it, but not sure how CLISP compares to SBCL nor ECL
2016-07-10T07:44:53Z beach: ZombieChicken: SBCL generates native code on the fly.  Its compiler generates the fastest code of the three.  ECL compiles to native code via C, but also has an interpreter.
2016-07-10T07:45:22Z ZombieChicken: So if I'm not hugely concerned with speed, it probably doesn't matter too much, huh?
2016-07-10T07:45:30Z beach: ZombieChicken: CLISP has been neglected for a while so it has some problems, but I hear that it is being maintained again.  It has a bytecode compiler so it is slower than the others.
2016-07-10T07:45:49Z beach: ZombieChicken: That is probably true.
2016-07-10T07:45:52Z ZombieChicken: beach: What kind of problems?
2016-07-10T07:46:22Z beach: ZombieChicken: I don't know the details.  Mainly some non-conforming behavior in some cases.
2016-07-10T07:46:43Z ZombieChicken: Ah, okay
2016-07-10T07:46:56Z ZombieChicken: I think I'll avoid it in that case.
2016-07-10T07:47:09Z beach: ZombieChicken: I hear CLISP has better error messages than SBCL.
2016-07-10T07:47:32Z beach: It is true that I sometimes find the SBCL error messages somewhat incomprehensible.
2016-07-10T07:48:21Z beach: ... such as "NIL is not a number".  This message contains absolutely no information because every Common Lisp programmer knows that.
2016-07-10T07:49:01Z ZombieChicken: ty for the info
2016-07-10T07:49:08Z beach: ywlcm
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2016-07-10T09:16:44Z Grue`: SBCL compile warnings are much better than CLISP's though, it catches almost every typo. I was pretty impressed when I switched from CLISP which never did that
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2016-07-10T09:35:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: Grue`: Can you give an example?
2016-07-10T09:36:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: Er, of what kind of typos are different.
2016-07-10T09:37:30Z Grue`: last time I used CLISP was many years ago, but e.g. when you mix up arguments of gethash CLISP can't give a warning
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2016-07-10T09:38:20Z Grue`: but SBCL can in some cases
2016-07-10T09:39:40Z Grue`: also it warns about unused variables, and assigning to non-defined global variables
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2016-07-10T11:21:06Z totimkopf: why does (documentation 'read-line 'function) return NIL? :I
2016-07-10T11:22:10Z pillton: There may not be any documentation assigned to the function.
2016-07-10T11:23:25Z pillton: Most people use C-c C-d h to look up documentation for operators/types/variables defined in the standard.
2016-07-10T11:24:17Z totimkopf: pillton: thanks
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2016-07-10T11:27:24Z totimkopf: ah, its hooked up to lispworks documentation... i must grab this for offline use
2016-07-10T11:27:37Z pillton: That is possible.
2016-07-10T11:28:31Z pillton: Emacs has a variable, common-lisp-hyperspec-root, which you can customize.
2016-07-10T11:29:13Z totimkopf: pillton: thanks again :)
2016-07-10T11:35:27Z shka_: hi
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2016-07-10T11:41:36Z pillton: totimkopf: You are welcome.
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2016-07-10T12:13:20Z sjl: weitz' lisp book mentions in passing that some implementations support weak arrays, like weak hash tables.  anyone know which ones those are?
2016-07-10T12:13:27Z sjl: google shows me lispworks has them
2016-07-10T12:13:45Z sjl: sbcl and ccl's manuals don't seem to mention them (ccl has "populations" but not arrays)
2016-07-10T12:14:32Z sjl: actually what I really would like is an array that treats things beyond the fill-pointer as weak
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2016-07-10T12:44:46Z scymtym: sjl: you could transform those elements using MAKE-WEAK-POINTER when you decrease the fill-pointer
2016-07-10T12:45:33Z sjl: scymtym: if I'm gonna touch them when I pop I may as well just null them out...
2016-07-10T12:46:17Z sjl: it's not a huge deal, just a loop to null out the range I just popped I guess
2016-07-10T12:47:12Z scymtym: sjl: i see, i thought you wanted to potentially reuse not-yet-collected elements. otherwise (fill ... 0) should be fine
2016-07-10T12:48:34Z sjl: ah I didn't know about fill -- that's even easier
2016-07-10T12:48:45Z scymtym: i can be more efficient, too
2016-07-10T12:48:46Z scymtym: it
2016-07-10T12:48:51Z sjl: yeah
2016-07-10T12:50:23Z sjl: context for this for the morbidly curious (rambling): https://bitbucket.org/sjl/.plan#markdown-header-2016-07-10
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2016-07-10T14:30:01Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm working on my blogpost in answer's to beach's and other's comments, and I am working on my first interpreter that I want to be similar to lisp but with slightly syntax rules. I've almost finished the repl for it
2016-07-10T14:30:36Z John[Lisbeth]: but the base of the interpreter will be written in bash because I know bash better
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2016-07-10T14:44:31Z John[Lisbeth]: this is what I've got so far http://sprunge.us/BBDR
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2016-07-10T14:47:02Z schjetne: Perhaps #lispcafe material?
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2016-07-10T15:59:09Z Bike: John[Lisbeth]: you should probably just write it in lisp so you don't need to bother with parsing. a basic scheme is like a page of code
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2016-07-10T16:29:27Z therik: if I want to run timer in a separate thread, what do I use as function for that thread?
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2016-07-10T16:40:08Z phoe_krk: therik: I think you can use an ordinary counter using GET-INTERNAL-TIME or something, and BT's INTERRUPT-THREAD for making that thread evaluate something that e.g. prints something to the screen.
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2016-07-10T16:44:24Z phoe_krk: I shouldn't Lisp when I'm doing elsethings. I counted three somethings in my previous post.
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2016-07-10T17:44:08Z drmeister: Lets say I have a file containing a list of strings that I want to read at compile-time and I need to compile it into a file as a load-time-value.
2016-07-10T17:47:27Z drmeister: Thinking...
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2016-07-10T17:48:36Z drmeister: I'm confusing myself - it's been a while since I thought about this.
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2016-07-10T17:55:02Z drmeister: How do I make a value available at load-time from a file available at compile-time and that I want to embed in the compiled file.
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2016-07-10T17:55:21Z drmeister: I know that this is confused - but something like this:
2016-07-10T17:55:23Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wnX7tRVw/
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2016-07-10T17:56:07Z drmeister: Should I use #. ?
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2016-07-10T17:57:03Z drmeister: The info that I need to compile into the FASL file is a list of strings that I can read at compile time.
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2016-07-10T18:09:32Z rumbler31: i have a function that I'm too stupid to debug.  so instead I used an already working program to precompute the correct output for each 16 bit integer input and read the results into an array, and it works
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2016-07-10T18:10:32Z rumbler31: if I want to be able to recreate lisp images with this array, would it be better to have a build step that reads the input and output files and rebuilds the array, or get a printable representation that will be loaded from a code file instead?
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2016-07-10T18:18:02Z flip214: Is there a way to get one of a class' :INITARG to be passed through a function before being stored? Ie. like defining a SETF accessor? The only idea I had was to override SHARED-INSTANCE, and to filter that one argument out before calling NEXT-METHOD. Is there a simpler way?
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2016-07-10T18:24:57Z flip214: alternatively, would instance access get much slower for all slots if I renamed the slot and provided a custom SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS for the original slot-name?
2016-07-10T18:26:29Z pierpa: rumbler31: what is the function that you are precomputing in the array?
2016-07-10T18:26:44Z rumbler31: conversion of pcm linear to pcm ulaw.
2016-07-10T18:27:08Z drmeister: I think I'm looking for something like this:
2016-07-10T18:27:10Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ttzwyBgH/
2016-07-10T18:27:12Z rumbler31: i've tried to mimic a few different implementation examples in other languages and on the surface it seems easy but
2016-07-10T18:28:10Z rumbler31: i ended up making an input file I passed to audacity, then used audacity to convert the file to ulaw, and then just read in the values and stored the corresponding output value
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2016-07-10T18:28:44Z rumbler31: i'd eventually like to know why my other approaches were failing
2016-07-10T18:28:46Z pierpa: do you need the speed of the precomputed array? or it doesn't matter
2016-07-10T18:29:21Z rumbler31: no, it probably doesn't matter, its just that after trying it a few different ways i realized I could simply precompute it with a known good tool
2016-07-10T18:29:42Z pierpa: yes, got it
2016-07-10T18:29:47Z rumbler31: i'd rather know I can code it, and I haven't come up against something like this that I haven't been able to debug, so its frustrating
2016-07-10T18:32:45Z pierpa: can you share your bugged attempt?
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2016-07-10T18:40:05Z Grue`: flip214: you can define a setf accessor. (defmethod (setf foo) ...)
2016-07-10T18:40:53Z Grue`: also, if you don't want to redefine the default accessor, you can add an :around method
2016-07-10T18:41:48Z rumbler31: pierpa: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320094
2016-07-10T18:41:51Z Grue`: oh wait, I misunderstood the question (like always)
2016-07-10T18:42:29Z Grue`: flip214: you just need to process this initarg in initialize-instance :after
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2016-07-10T18:43:11Z Grue`: same way as adding non-default initargs
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2016-07-10T19:01:55Z rumbler31: pierpa: the first function is an attempt to parrot this :http://opensource.apple.com//source/tcl/tcl-20/tcl_ext/snack/snack/generic/g711.c
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2016-07-10T19:14:58Z rumbler31: when managing threads, is it an appropriate idiom to pass back a closure after a thread has ben created, wherein the loop in the thread is checking on the state of some variable in the closure to change, that variable being changed by a function call returned with the closure?
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2016-07-10T19:15:57Z rumbler31: like I need a thread to loop, pulling or pushing data through streams, and to stop when the application decides to stop.
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2016-07-10T19:45:36Z Grue`: rumbler31: threads share global variables, you just need a defvar or something
2016-07-10T19:46:04Z Grue`: pretty sure that closure thing wouldn't work
2016-07-10T19:46:09Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320146
2016-07-10T19:46:41Z rumbler31: well so you're saying if I had a few of these, i'd have to index into an array or keep separate globals to manage their state?
2016-07-10T19:46:57Z Grue`: new thread starts in a null lexical environment
2016-07-10T19:47:25Z Grue`: so it won't see state
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2016-07-10T19:52:02Z rumbler31: huh....
2016-07-10T19:52:23Z rumbler31: well at some point it has to see state that is changed from outside the thread, right?
2016-07-10T19:55:08Z Grue`: what is "it"? if something is stored in a lexical variable, or non-local dynamic variable other threads can't see it
2016-07-10T19:55:30Z Grue`: *non-global
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2016-07-10T19:58:54Z Grue`: also this might be actually implementation-dependent because threading is not specified in the standard
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2016-07-10T19:59:59Z rumbler31: well isn't that the idea behind a closure? that things lexically related inside a closure can see the closure "state" or variables and such defined within, and if you invoke a function from a closure it will be able to see/modify the variables inside it?
2016-07-10T20:00:02Z rumbler31: oh ok
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2016-07-10T20:03:34Z Grue`: the idea of closure capturing variables in its lexical environment was conceived wrt single-threaded environment. implementing multi-threaded variable capture is probably difficult, and would just make threads perform slower than they could be
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2016-07-10T20:44:14Z pierpa: rumbler31: how do you check if the function is working or not?
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2016-07-10T20:44:59Z pierpa: I transliterated to CL this one http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/comp.speech/Section2/Q2.7.htmland get the same results as your last 2
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2016-07-10T20:47:39Z pierpa: actually, no, it's not the same
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2016-07-10T20:50:26Z rumbler31: pierpa: I look at the sound file in audacity, my last two attemps appear to produce correct positive ulaw values and not negative ones
2016-07-10T20:51:47Z rumbler31: since I know have a known good mapping I can directly test but I still just don't understand what correct output is supposed to be.  I need to really study the spec, because it seems like the wiki page for the discretized ulaw mapping and the apple c code file example differ, assuming I can still read C code
2016-07-10T20:51:53Z pierpa: check #4 here https://bpaste.net/show/bcdff45b2f0d
2016-07-10T20:53:36Z pierpa: probably your use of LOGXOR is wrong
2016-07-10T20:53:44Z rumbler31: pierpa: ok let me check it out.
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2016-07-10T20:54:34Z pierpa: oops, I forgot to check for the ZEROTRAP, hope it's not important
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2016-07-10T20:59:47Z pierpa: rumbler31: definitely you meant LOGAND instead of LOGXOR
2016-07-10T21:00:15Z rumbler31: hmm
2016-07-10T21:00:26Z rumbler31: in which case?
2016-07-10T21:00:41Z pierpa: in mulaw3
2016-07-10T21:03:12Z rumbler31: ok that one I was following along from the itu reference code sample, let me pull it up again
2016-07-10T21:04:11Z rumbler31: no, i'm wrong, it was from the one you linke
2016-07-10T21:04:44Z rumbler31: ahh so that last c operator is negation i think
2016-07-10T21:04:47Z rumbler31: or complement
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2016-07-10T21:06:05Z pierpa: ~ is bitwise complement
2016-07-10T21:06:12Z rumbler31: doesn't xoring the bytes with all 1's effect a complement?
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2016-07-10T21:06:36Z pierpa: but you don't do this. you xor with FF
2016-07-10T21:06:51Z pierpa: no, wait
2016-07-10T21:07:00Z rumbler31: which is 16 bits of 1's, right?
2016-07-10T21:07:04Z pierpa: no, yes :)
2016-07-10T21:07:22Z pierpa: but ulawbyte, as the name implies must be 8 bit
2016-07-10T21:07:29Z rumbler31: er derp
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2016-07-10T21:08:07Z pierpa: anyway, is mulaw4 correct?
2016-07-10T21:08:12Z rumbler31: i guess I end up creating a 16 bit integer again, and passing that right out
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2016-07-10T21:10:23Z rumbler31: you do the same, but with logand, I guess if the high bits are all 0 then it doesn't matter
2016-07-10T21:10:28Z rumbler31: let me run it
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2016-07-10T21:10:55Z pierpa: the result of mulaw4 looks more plausible, to me
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2016-07-10T21:11:17Z pierpa: try TESTALL
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2016-07-10T21:14:56Z rumbler31: yes mulaw5 is correct
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2016-07-10T21:19:09Z phoe_krk: rumbler31: What's mulaw3 and how is it different from mulaw4 and mulaw5?
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2016-07-10T21:20:53Z rumbler31: phoe_krk: I wrote 3 different versions of a pcm linear to pcm ulaw conversion function trying to simply parrot existing code examples
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2016-07-10T21:21:02Z phoe_krk: Oh, I see!
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2016-07-10T21:21:25Z rumbler31: pierpa wrote a version that is correct.  I dunno if that's what you mean about 4 and 5
2016-07-10T21:24:11Z pierpa: ok :)
2016-07-10T21:26:15Z rumbler31: pierpa: can you see where i'm going wrong, in at least mulaw3?
2016-07-10T21:26:30Z pierpa: the LOGXOR?
2016-07-10T21:26:32Z rumbler31: and thank you for doing this, i'm really embarrassed at how long it took me to fail at it
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2016-07-10T21:27:18Z pierpa: I suppose in mulaw3 you started from the same code I linked?
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2016-07-10T21:27:42Z rumbler31: yes
2016-07-10T21:28:27Z rumbler31: if I logxor against #xf instead, all of my positive values are correct, but with logand, won't 1 bits remain 1?
2016-07-10T21:28:39Z pierpa: hmmm
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2016-07-10T21:29:18Z pierpa: the original code uses LOGAND #xFF, why you want to use something else?
2016-07-10T21:29:56Z rumbler31: doesn't the original code use a complement of the constructed byte?
2016-07-10T21:30:13Z pierpa: anyway your transliteration is wrong
2016-07-10T21:30:43Z rumbler31: maybe we're talking about different lines?
2016-07-10T21:30:46Z pierpa: the algorithm linked does if sign != 0 then linear = -linear
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2016-07-10T21:31:09Z pierpa: you translate this in something barely recognizable, which does a different thing
2016-07-10T21:31:45Z pierpa: instead of the obvious identical code with some parentheses added
2016-07-10T21:32:35Z rumbler31: i compressed a few steps on that one, I guess my misunderstanding is that complementing a negative value /= the positive value
2016-07-10T21:33:08Z pierpa: oki. I'd avoid compressions when implementing an unfamiliar algorithm
2016-07-10T21:33:24Z pierpa: optimizations can come later, if needed
2016-07-10T21:33:35Z rumbler31: so (abs -1) isn't the same thing as (- -1) ?
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2016-07-10T21:33:47Z flip214: Grue`: thanks
2016-07-10T21:33:58Z pierpa: (abs -1 is 1  :)
2016-07-10T21:35:13Z rumbler31: I don't mean to sound argumentative, I know i wrote it wrong, i'm just trying to figure out exactly where
2016-07-10T21:35:32Z pierpa: I'm not reading you as argumentative :)
2016-07-10T21:35:53Z pierpa: I'm trying to understand your code
2016-07-10T21:35:58Z rumbler31: oh ok
2016-07-10T21:36:26Z rumbler31: so i figured that the if sign != 0 then linear = -linear is the same thing as saying "take the absolute value"
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2016-07-10T21:36:43Z rumbler31: because i've already captured the original polarity
2016-07-10T21:37:14Z rumbler31: so therefore if I simply take the absolute value of linear, no matter positive or negative, it will produce the same effect
2016-07-10T21:37:28Z pierpa: ok. got it
2016-07-10T21:37:49Z pierpa: the value of sign is not the sign of linear
2016-07-10T21:38:15Z pierpa: sign is the sign of the BYTE linear
2016-07-10T21:38:54Z pierpa: so linear may be positive, but it's least significant byte may be negative
2016-07-10T21:39:00Z pierpa: *its
2016-07-10T21:39:21Z pierpa: so, you mixed two different unrelated signs
2016-07-10T21:40:42Z pierpa: I mean 16bit chunk, not byte, above
2016-07-10T21:41:45Z rumbler31: what confuses me about what you just said, is that we're storing the leftmost bit value
2016-07-10T21:42:25Z rumbler31: if this value is 1, assuming twos complement binary, we're dealing with a negative number, right? that this bit is also the msb?
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2016-07-10T21:45:01Z pierpa: try this expression
2016-07-10T21:45:04Z pierpa: (let* ((sample (1- (expt 2 16)))
2016-07-10T21:45:05Z pierpa:                   (sign (logand #x80 (ash sample -8))))
2016-07-10T21:45:05Z pierpa:              sign)
2016-07-10T21:45:43Z pierpa: no, wait
2016-07-10T21:48:08Z rumbler31: oh i see
2016-07-10T21:48:28Z rumbler31: we're moving the lsb to the...
2016-07-10T21:48:55Z rumbler31: left
2016-07-10T21:49:02Z rumbler31: then taking the high bit
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2016-07-10T21:50:47Z pierpa: https://bpaste.net/show/0c6e3e509eea
2016-07-10T21:51:15Z pierpa: yes, "sign" is bit 15 of the sample
2016-07-10T21:51:36Z pierpa: the paste there's correct code and your code evaluated on 65535
2016-07-10T21:52:15Z rumbler31: yep
2016-07-10T21:52:17Z rumbler31: thank you
2016-07-10T21:52:59Z pierpa: because 60000 is positive to CL, but is negative in 16 bit signed arithmetic
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2016-07-10T21:56:36Z rumbler31: further, why would the "sign" bit be found in the lsb?
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2016-07-10T21:58:23Z rumbler31: or assuming two's complement, it could be part of the leading 1's for small negative values, otherwise represent a bit in the magnitude for larger values, right?
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2016-07-10T22:01:35Z pierpa: sign is in bit 15, that is the MSB of the sample. Not sure I understood the question, though
2016-07-10T22:04:17Z therik: is there a way to extend the loop macro and teach it new iterations?
2016-07-10T22:05:17Z therik: actually, it might be easier to do macro on top of do
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2016-07-10T22:09:10Z rumbler31: we mask #x80 with the result of shifting the sample to the left 8 bits
2016-07-10T22:09:39Z rumbler31: so wouldn't that be taking the #x08 bit in the sample and simply storing its result in the #x80 bit?
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2016-07-10T22:22:54Z pierpa: btw, I don't understand why they do it in this way
2016-07-10T22:23:24Z sjl: is there a built-in function for copying data from one array into part of another?
2016-07-10T22:23:35Z pierpa: (logand sample #x8000)  would have the same effect, methinks
2016-07-10T22:23:58Z pierpa: sjl, yes:  (setf subseq)
2016-07-10T22:24:06Z sjl: basically a built in versoin of (loop for el across source-array for addr from start (setf (aref dest addr) el))
2016-07-10T22:24:24Z sjl: oh nice
2016-07-10T22:24:28Z pierpa: (setf (subseq ...) (subseq ...))
2016-07-10T22:24:36Z rumbler31: pierpa: I got punted, so if you said something i might have missed it
2016-07-10T22:25:34Z pierpa: I said: btw, I don't understand why they do it in this way / (logand sample #x8000)  would have the same effect, methinks
2016-07-10T22:26:23Z rumbler31: pierpa: yes this seems odd, if you've already reconstructed the 16 bit value prior to calling this function, it seems like they are explicitly taking the high bit from the low byte
2016-07-10T22:26:33Z pierpa: perhaps to make it work on 16 bit DSPs?
2016-07-10T22:26:44Z rumbler31: the promotion seems to serve simply that it will be writted back in the high bit of the high byte
2016-07-10T22:27:27Z rumbler31: oh, the example code is a right shift
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2016-07-10T22:28:08Z rumbler31: and it makes even less sense, right shift the sample, but then take the high bit of the high byte
2016-07-10T22:28:51Z rumbler31: if the implementation performs an arithmetic shift (inserts 1's if the number is twos complement and negative) then you'll read a 1 in the high bit
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2016-07-10T22:29:07Z sjl: oh good, (setf subseq) seems to respect fill pointers too
2016-07-10T22:29:10Z sjl: at least in SBCL
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2016-07-10T22:29:29Z pierpa: sjl, yes
2016-07-10T22:30:04Z pierpa: rumbler31, ok got it. sign is used later as a sign to the output byte
2016-07-10T22:30:19Z pierpa: so it comes handy to have it in 8bit byte
2016-07-10T22:30:32Z sjl: thanks
2016-07-10T22:30:56Z rumbler31: yes I realized my confusion
2016-07-10T22:30:57Z pierpa: yw :)
2016-07-10T22:31:06Z rumbler31: #x8000 is the high bit of the high byte
2016-07-10T22:31:15Z rumbler31: the shift is to the right
2016-07-10T22:31:53Z rumbler31: so the result is that the high bit is moved down to #x0080 then stored as a 1 byte value
2016-07-10T22:32:05Z pierpa: yes
2016-07-10T22:32:31Z rumbler31: and it seems that my problem was that a byte value read as negative when treated like a two
2016-07-10T22:32:34Z rumbler31: s complement binary number
2016-07-10T22:32:46Z rumbler31: is not necessarily negative to common lisp
2016-07-10T22:33:21Z rumbler31: (<= sample 0) isn't correct
2016-07-10T22:33:30Z rumbler31: in order to detect negativity.
2016-07-10T22:35:04Z rumbler31: i'm not sure why this wasn't clear to me before.  I seemed to think that negating the value wouldn't work for this reason, because it would simply be stored as a sign and magnitude cl integer value, where further bit manipulations would be ignorant of the sign
2016-07-10T22:35:26Z rumbler31: so if I thought that was the case I have no idea why I would have thought that checking the absolute value would work either
2016-07-10T22:35:53Z pierpa: bit twiddling is tricky
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2016-07-10T22:37:14Z mejja: why lisp sooo slow?
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2016-07-10T22:39:50Z phoe_krk: mejja: wat
2016-07-10T22:40:15Z phoe_krk: Describe your issue better. That question alone doesn't have a sane answer.
2016-07-10T22:40:54Z rumbler31: pierpa: i owe you a beer
2016-07-10T22:41:00Z pierpa: yay!
2016-07-10T22:41:56Z rumbler31: do you happen to have much experience writing code using bordeaux-threads?
2016-07-10T22:44:17Z pierpa: me? never used them. Actually, I just returned to write CL after several years of exile
2016-07-10T22:44:31Z rumbler31: oh ok
2016-07-10T22:44:41Z rumbler31: i've never really dealt with multithreaded code in any language
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2016-07-10T23:24:09Z totimkopf: how would I assign input from (read-line) to a variable?
2016-07-10T23:24:20Z adhoc[] is now known as adhoc[afi]
2016-07-10T23:25:45Z antoszka: totimkopf: CL-USER(1): (defvar *foo* (read-line))
2016-07-10T23:25:45Z antoszka: haha
2016-07-10T23:25:45Z antoszka: *FOO*
2016-07-10T23:25:45Z antoszka: CL-USER(2): *foo*
2016-07-10T23:25:45Z antoszka:                                                                                                                                                       "haha"
2016-07-10T23:25:56Z totimkopf: without using a global
2016-07-10T23:26:03Z antoszka: totimkopf: let
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2016-07-10T23:27:05Z totimkopf: antoszka: i've tried something like: (let ((x (read-line))))
2016-07-10T23:27:34Z totimkopf: but got some warnings and it didn't work as planned
2016-07-10T23:29:37Z antoszka: totimkopf: (let ((foo (read-line))) foo)
2016-07-10T23:29:46Z antoszka: totimkopf: should work as expected
2016-07-10T23:29:53Z antoszka: enter a value and see it returned
2016-07-10T23:30:36Z totimkopf: ahh!
2016-07-10T23:31:10Z totimkopf: antoszka: thanks :)
2016-07-10T23:32:12Z antoszka: np
2016-07-10T23:33:29Z sharkteeth: is there a type of (and) that doesn't stop evaluating arguments even if it encounters nil?
2016-07-10T23:34:34Z antoszka: sharkteeth: try reduce
2016-07-10T23:35:48Z sharkteeth: reduce #'and ?
2016-07-10T23:36:44Z heddwch is now known as [heddwch]
2016-07-10T23:36:59Z [heddwch] is now known as heddwch
2016-07-10T23:37:34Z Bike: do you need side effects or something?
2016-07-10T23:37:53Z sharkteeth: if i understand what you mean correctly, yes
2016-07-10T23:38:04Z antoszka: sharkteeth: and is a macro
2016-07-10T23:38:12Z antoszka: so you can't reduce with #'and
2016-07-10T23:38:30Z sharkteeth: i'll describe the problem a bit more clearly, one moment
2016-07-10T23:40:10Z pillton: clhs every
2016-07-10T23:40:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm
2016-07-10T23:40:23Z sharkteeth: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320155
2016-07-10T23:40:41Z sharkteeth: multi-check is what i'm trying to get ironed out
2016-07-10T23:40:42Z Anselmo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-07-10T23:40:44Z sharkteeth: i'll check out every
2016-07-10T23:41:48Z Bike: well, you can do the same thing you did in check.
2016-07-10T23:42:46Z pillton: Oh no. Another unit test framework!
2016-07-10T23:42:51Z sharkteeth: haha yep
2016-07-10T23:43:03Z sharkteeth: chapter exercise in a book i'm following
2016-07-10T23:43:11Z pillton: Thank heavens for that.
2016-07-10T23:43:18Z Bike: or abstract a bit, (defun and-always (&rest values) (every #'identity values)), and then define check and multi-check in terms of that
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2016-07-10T23:44:13Z sharkteeth: that seems like a better idea than what i'm trying to do.
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2016-07-10T23:44:46Z sharkteeth: pillton don't worry, with some luck i'll be through it shortly
2016-07-10T23:45:09Z sharkteeth: still getting used to macros and backquote notation, very strange
2016-07-10T23:45:41Z sharkteeth: or not intuitive to me yet anyway
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2016-07-10T23:46:37Z pillton: Oh. It is great that you are doing the exercises.
2016-07-10T23:46:46Z Bike: imo it helps to try writing it without backquote
2016-07-10T23:47:05Z Bike: like, `(unless ,i (setf ,result nil)) = (list 'unless i (list 'setf result nil))
2016-07-10T23:47:32Z sharkteeth: write it without backquote so it's easier to transliterate it into backquote or avoid backquote when possible?
2016-07-10T23:47:42Z pillton: sharkteeth: I won't stop people from practising. Fail fast, fail often I say.
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2016-07-10T23:47:49Z Bike: just, to understand what backquote does
2016-07-10T23:47:59Z Bike: though i write like that instead of doing nested backquotes, also
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2016-07-10T23:48:48Z sharkteeth: gotcha, giving it a shot now
2016-07-10T23:49:32Z sharkteeth: pillton i figure you guys get a lot of the same questions over and over again but this is the only place i can go for lisp related questions without spamming stackexchange or quora or whatever's hot now
2016-07-10T23:50:43Z sharkteeth: and i've got the "fail often" part down pretty good already ;)
2016-07-10T23:50:56Z pillton: sharkteeth: I have no problems with questions. I have problems with blog posts advertising another common lisp test framework. :)
2016-07-10T23:51:21Z pillton: sharkteeth: I'll see you at the pub. We can compare scars.
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2016-07-10T23:52:02Z sharkteeth: fair enough
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2016-07-11T00:05:12Z pillton: sharkteeth: What book are the exercises from?
2016-07-11T00:05:30Z sharkteeth: Practical Common Lisp by Peter Seibel
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2016-07-11T00:09:44Z sharkteeth: looks like most/all of it is online on his website as well: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
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2016-07-11T00:13:34Z pillton: Thanks. I wanted to see if it covered an issue with minimal compilation and your check/multi-check macros. It is a bit early in the book to bring it up.
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2016-07-11T00:14:17Z pillton: It is a good book. That was my first lisp book.
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2016-07-11T04:34:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-11T04:45:04Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-07-11T04:45:22Z John[Lisbeth]: beach, I've almost implemented my own lispy interpreter in bash
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2016-07-11T04:47:59Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Congratulations.
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2016-07-11T04:55:48Z John[Lisbeth]: I've got a pretty solid repl that runs emacs smoothly. About 10 lines of bash. Now I am creating the parser that the eval in repl calls.
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2016-07-11T05:21:20Z Chetnik|3: Hi, all
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2016-07-11T05:22:14Z beach: Hello Chetnik|3.
2016-07-11T05:24:55Z beach: Chetnik|3: Are you new here?
2016-07-11T05:25:25Z Chetnik|3: Yes, new to IRC and LISP in general actually.
2016-07-11T05:26:21Z beach: I see.  Welcome, then!
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2016-07-11T05:29:22Z Chetnik|3: Thanks! I'm working through Paul Graham's book right now.  Really great thusfar
2016-07-11T05:29:44Z beach: Which one?  ANSI Common Lisp?
2016-07-11T05:30:27Z Chetnik|3: Yep. I didn't realize he had others. Any other suggestions?
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2016-07-11T05:31:20Z beach: His other book is for more advanced stuff, so that's the one to start with.  But there are also other Common Lisp books for beginners.
2016-07-11T05:31:52Z beach: But that one is fine.  He just has an unusual style that you need to avoid later on.
2016-07-11T05:32:00Z beach: Not a big deal at this point though.
2016-07-11T05:32:45Z Chetnik|3: I was interested because I had heard it was like python.  Which I don't understand at all.  There's nothing in Python like the REPL and LISP seems to be a lot less "batteries included"
2016-07-11T05:33:11Z DaivdGu: yes
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2016-07-11T05:34:56Z beach: Chetnik|3: OK, one thing at a time.  First of all, we quit writing it LISP a few decades ago.  Second, Common Lisp is a standard, so it is nothing included at all, whereas Python is a programming system.  There are several Common Lisp implementations to choose from.  Third, with Quicklisp, you have hundreds of libraries that you can install, so there are plenty of batteries to be found.
2016-07-11T05:41:43Z Chetnik|3: beach:  Great, thanks for pointing those things out, I'll have to read up.
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2016-07-11T05:48:37Z beach: Chetnik|3: Also, before installing your Common Lisp programming environment, you should consult us here, because it is easy to get it wrong, and then it will all have to be done over again.
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2016-07-11T06:43:21Z ZombieChicken: How easy is it to mess up a CL programming enviroment?
2016-07-11T06:43:26Z ZombieChicken: I've never heard that claim
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2016-07-11T06:50:51Z spiaggia: ZombieChicken: It is very easy to mess up a Common Lisp environment.
2016-07-11T06:51:49Z spiaggia: Try (setf (fdefinition 'read) #'read-char) and if you are in SBCL, answer that you want to ignore package locks.  From then on, you can't do anything.
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2016-07-11T06:53:05Z ZombieChicken: hmm, okay
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2016-07-11T06:54:44Z spiaggia: That is by design.  The philosophy of Common Lisp is to allow the programmer to experiment with lots of things.  And it is assumed that the programmer knows what he or she is doing.
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2016-07-11T07:01:29Z pillton: I think there is room for improvement though.
2016-07-11T07:01:58Z spiaggia: How so?
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2016-07-11T07:02:43Z pillton: Having the ability to "revert" (and/or "fork") the global environment would be good.
2016-07-11T07:03:31Z spiaggia: Sure.  SICL first-class global environments will help.
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2016-07-11T20:25:18Z dim: does copy-tree works by default with structure instances as tree elements?
2016-07-11T20:26:15Z dlowe: that seems unlikely?
2016-07-11T20:26:50Z dlowe: If tree is not a cons, it is returned
2016-07-11T20:26:57Z dlowe: thus speaketh the clhs
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2016-07-11T20:28:26Z dim: and I needed it to be written again here for the words to finally make sense to me
2016-07-11T20:28:49Z dim: of course copy-tree is recursive and that's all you need to know to understand how it behaves
2016-07-11T20:28:50Z dim: thx
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2016-07-11T21:54:13Z fourier: is where anything like memset in CL, to set contents of the array to zeros in an efficient way?
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2016-07-11T21:56:48Z Bike: clhs fill
2016-07-11T21:56:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fill.htm
2016-07-11T21:58:54Z fourier: Bike: great thanks
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2016-07-12T03:13:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-12T03:14:27Z burla: dear beach!
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2016-07-12T05:43:00Z papachan: morning
2016-07-12T05:43:11Z beach: Hello papachan.
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2016-07-12T08:27:32Z novoid: Emacs: why do I get "Wrong type argument: number-or-marker-p, nil" with "(time-subtract (parse-time-string "12:24") (parse-time-string "11:45"))"?
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2016-07-12T08:33:22Z Bike: you might want to try #emacs. but it seems like parse-time-string returns values, so maybe you need to encode-time the result.
2016-07-12T08:34:28Z novoid: Bike: (setq (time-subtract ...)) returns the same error. I'll try emacs, thanks.
2016-07-12T08:34:31Z edgar-rft: novoid: because time-sustract expects two float-time values, not two (SEC MIN HOUR DAY MON YEAR DOW DST TZ) lists.
2016-07-12T08:34:45Z Bike: what does setq have to do with it
2016-07-12T08:34:58Z novoid: edgar-rft: There are two, aren't they?
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2016-07-12T08:35:15Z edgar-rft: but not two float-times
2016-07-12T08:35:20Z Bike: no, what me and edgar are saying is that parse-time-string does not return a value of the kind that time-subtract wants.
2016-07-12T08:35:27Z novoid: Bike: my naïve mind: setq is able to assign list of values
2016-07-12T08:35:43Z Bike: what does it mean to "assign list of values"?
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2016-07-12T08:36:02Z novoid: Bike: ah, I thought there is only one representation for time.
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2016-07-12T08:37:07Z Bike: time's probably too complicated for one, alas
2016-07-12T08:37:48Z novoid: ... and I am an Elisp n00b :-(
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2016-07-12T08:41:13Z edgar-rft: novoid: gimme a few minutes and I'll try to find a working version, and in case of doubt I'm on #emacs, too. On #lisp you find Common Lisp experts, on #emacs you find Emacs lisp folks.
2016-07-12T08:42:51Z novoid: edgar-rft: I guess I've found a hint: I have to use (encode-time (parse-time-string ...)) but I got no working version yet.
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2016-07-12T08:43:13Z novoid: edgar-rft: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2901317/dates-and-times-in-emacs-lisp relates to it
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2016-07-12T08:54:49Z edgar-rft: I still have no working solution, but the various time and date formets used by Emacs are documented in thee Sections "Time of Day", "Time Conversion", and "Time Parsing" here: <https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/System-Interface.html#System-Interface>
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2016-07-12T09:05:39Z therik: hello
2016-07-12T09:06:17Z therik: ; file: /home/therik/.swank.lisp caught WARNING: ;   undefined variable: SWANK:*GLOBALLY-REDIRECT-IO*
2016-07-12T09:06:18Z therik: eh?
2016-07-12T09:06:49Z therik: am I missing something?
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2016-07-12T09:10:02Z Bike: version trouble?
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2016-07-12T10:43:33Z loke`: Hello Lisp!
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2016-07-12T10:51:37Z pillton: G'day loke.
2016-07-12T10:52:01Z loke`: Hello pillton
2016-07-12T10:52:05Z loke` is in Paris right now.
2016-07-12T10:52:21Z pillton: loke`: No need to rub it in.
2016-07-12T10:53:07Z loke`: pillton: I'd rather be hoe to be honest, but I'll still enjoy what I get :-)
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2016-07-12T12:23:58Z John[Lisbeth]: Haskell has a rigid type system. Lisp could simulate the rigid type system of haskell, and within that simulation there would be rigid types, but outside of that simulation, the types would not be rigid. Isn't that correct?
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2016-07-12T12:31:09Z peey: John[Lisbeth]: that is correct. You'll do that by not allowing direct manipulation to the built-in types, but through special functions which when called will check for this rigidity. You can also not use the :cl package so user of your package won't have access cl to the language and just the language you provide, with a rigid type system
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2016-07-12T12:33:04Z Zhivago: What is it by 'rigid type' that you mean?
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2016-07-12T12:35:44Z John[Lisbeth]: Well you can make certain optomizations for example if you make assumptions about the type system.
2016-07-12T12:35:54Z John[Lisbeth]: Which have tradeoffs.
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2016-07-12T12:37:17Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm also wondering about making finite state machines in lisp, which is an unrelated question to the previous one.
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2016-07-12T12:39:16Z John[Lisbeth]: Namely I'm hoping someone has already implemented some finite state machine stuff.
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2016-07-12T12:40:13Z loke`: John[Lisbeth]: You do know what an FSM is, right? Implementing it is so trivial that a library is utterly pointless.
2016-07-12T12:40:29Z loke`: There is also the CASE macro in Lisp. That's all you need.
2016-07-12T12:41:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I suppose a case macro is all I need, but I didn't know if there was something to manage it. That's fine, that answers my question.
2016-07-12T12:41:15Z Kooda: Case and lambda :Þ
2016-07-12T12:41:54Z Kooda: In Scheme we have irregex, which compiles a regex to a state machine, maybe there’s something similar in CL.
2016-07-12T12:44:24Z John[Lisbeth]: scheme would be sort of going the opposite direction of what I want.
2016-07-12T12:44:41Z Kooda: Why so?
2016-07-12T12:45:03Z John[Lisbeth]: What I want is to really study closely the typing systems of haskell and scheme and make my own sort of sandboxed typing system in lisp, and then implement a really efficient finite state machine logic in that. The typing system would be optomized for finite state machines and vectors
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2016-07-12T12:45:35Z John[Lisbeth]: When I say finite state machine, I mean a loop with case statements inside based on ints in a vector
2016-07-12T12:45:46Z John[Lisbeth]: so it's not technically finite, but uses the same sort of thinking
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2016-07-12T12:48:54Z loke`: John[Lisbeth]: May I suggest you first learn Haskell then?
2016-07-12T12:50:45Z John[Lisbeth]: I have already learned the basics of haskell. I spent about a year and a half pouring over learn you a haskell. Ultimately I found lisp was the solution I needed and not haskell.
2016-07-12T12:51:21Z John[Lisbeth]: I want the type system that lisp has; however, within the lisp typing system I want to make my own typing system for certain problem domains
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2016-07-12T12:53:25Z wywedanse: ei
2016-07-12T12:53:31Z wywedanse: is there a svg
2016-07-12T12:53:33Z wywedanse: ?
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2016-07-12T12:58:43Z wywedanse: is there a terminal coded in lisp?
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2016-07-12T13:01:49Z John[Lisbeth]: emacs is what you are looking for
2016-07-12T13:02:24Z therik: hm, lparallel doesn't pass multiple values to receive-result...
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2016-07-12T13:03:20Z wywedanse: can I run vim in emacs?
2016-07-12T13:03:45Z John[Lisbeth]: yes, also there is emacs vi layer or emacs evil mode for short
2016-07-12T13:04:38Z wywedanse: hom much compatible is it?
2016-07-12T13:04:52Z wywedanse: 100%, 60% ...
2016-07-12T13:04:55Z John[Lisbeth]: Well it doesn't run emacs perfectly but if you get good at emacs apparently it can run it pretty well.
2016-07-12T13:05:10Z John[Lisbeth]: But emacs evil mode takes it a step further and combines the goodness of vim with the goodness of lisp.
2016-07-12T13:05:27Z John[Lisbeth]: You gotta trust me that if you want to do lispy stuff in the shell, emacs is the best thing for you.
2016-07-12T13:05:40Z John[Lisbeth]: You should /join #emacs and ask them about it.
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2016-07-12T13:06:11Z moore33: John[Lisbeth]: I would be ready to use eshell all the time, but as far as I know it doesn't do input redirection :/
2016-07-12T13:06:27Z John[Lisbeth]: you can m-x eshell or m-x ansi-term for better shell
2016-07-12T13:06:32Z jdz: i've heard viper mode (or another one of them vi emeulation modes) is actually better than vim itself
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2016-07-12T13:07:09Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: i've always found terminal support lacking in emacs
2016-07-12T13:07:17Z jdz: there's always something that does not work
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2016-07-12T13:08:21Z wywedanse: so plenty of options
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2016-07-12T13:13:25Z John[Lisbeth]: yeah so basically jdz is right, wywedanse. Arguably the best terminal inside of emacs is ansi-term, and it doesn't have really rock solid terminal emmulation like something like tmux does, but it's so good that it works for most things really well, and one day we hope to have a version that will do full terminal emulation like tmux
2016-07-12T13:13:47Z John[Lisbeth]: but basically you can do almost all of your programming work from within emacs without ever leaving it, and I almost never leave emacs when I am doing anything linux related.
2016-07-12T13:14:02Z John[Lisbeth]: for everything else I just use chrome, and in fact I am running emacs inside of a tab in chrome on a chromebook
2016-07-12T13:14:20Z John[Lisbeth]: So learning emacs is a really powerful thing to do as a programmer which has alot of advantages.
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2016-07-12T13:46:22Z wywedanse: what about is there a simple lisp terminal?
2016-07-12T13:46:53Z loke`: wywedanse: Pretty much all of use use Emacs.
2016-07-12T13:47:50Z wywedanse: that's fine, but I wanted for sakes of demo of lisp code. I n00b, I am sure emacs code is huge.
2016-07-12T13:48:03Z jdz: emacs + slime, that is
2016-07-12T13:48:08Z jdz: and a common lisp implementation
2016-07-12T13:48:16Z wywedanse: something to this effect --> https://github.com/antirez/kilo
2016-07-12T13:48:22Z jdz: which is usually SBCL or CCL
2016-07-12T13:48:33Z wywedanse: I was curious how the code of a terminal looked like
2016-07-12T13:50:08Z jdz: wywedanse: what you linked looks like an editor, not a "terminal"
2016-07-12T13:50:43Z jdz: one editor written in CL is https://common-lisp.net/project/phemlock/
2016-07-12T13:51:02Z jdz: then there's McCLIM
2016-07-12T13:51:48Z jdz: there was one interesting editor using structured document concepts, i don't recall its name, though
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2016-07-12T13:58:44Z jdz: oh, i think https://github.com/projectured/projectured is the one i was thinking of
2016-07-12T13:59:23Z jdz: there are links to screencasts on youtube
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2016-07-12T14:02:49Z wywedanse: what about a simple terminal?
2016-07-12T14:03:33Z wywedanse: I've got an idea.
2016-07-12T14:05:09Z Xach: wywedanse: simple terminal is a bit of an oxymoron
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2016-07-12T14:05:56Z Xach: It's not that it's impossible or anything, but there are a lot of details to get right.
2016-07-12T14:06:15Z jdz: only if one wants to be compatible with "standard" terminals
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2016-07-12T14:06:25Z drdo: Which is surprising, the concept of a terminal is very simple
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2016-07-12T14:06:54Z Xach: drdo: what is the concept of a terminal?
2016-07-12T14:07:51Z wywedanse: so no lisp terminal out there, even as demo?
2016-07-12T14:07:52Z drdo: Xach: Well, I suppose the main idea is something that can display characters and accept character input
2016-07-12T14:08:24Z Xach: wywedanse: there is a clim one that springs to mind.
2016-07-12T14:08:44Z jdz: drdo: would WRITE-STRING and READ-STRING satisfy the constraints?
2016-07-12T14:08:45Z Xach: drdo: is scrolling included? like, you get to the end of a line, and everything moves up? and cursor motion?
2016-07-12T14:09:41Z drdo: Xach: Yes, things start getting complicated once one starts piling on features. It was never my point to refute that
2016-07-12T14:10:15Z Xach: drdo: Just wondering what counts for making a conceptual bare-bones terminal
2016-07-12T14:10:31Z Xach: makes me think about typewriters as a metaphor
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2016-07-12T14:12:25Z Xach: that device has cheap scrolling hardware
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2016-07-12T14:12:44Z drdo: Xach: I don't have any strong opinions on that
2016-07-12T14:12:55Z drdo: (scrolling being a primitive feature)
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2016-07-12T14:31:15Z mordocai: Hey, what was the general lisp family IRC chat channel again?
2016-07-12T14:31:28Z jackdaniel: ##lisp
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2016-07-12T14:55:27Z John[Lisbeth]: what is wrong with this: (loop while (eq 4 4) do 2) ?
2016-07-12T14:56:04Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: EQ is not a good comparator for numbers.
2016-07-12T14:56:42Z John[Lisbeth]: (loop while (equal 4 4) do 2) doesn't work either
2016-07-12T14:57:01Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: what do you mean by "work"?
2016-07-12T14:57:16Z John[Lisbeth]: I want it to be the same as 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2....
2016-07-12T14:57:40Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: Oh, now that I've tried it, I see the issue. I didn't realize DO worked like that.
2016-07-12T14:57:44Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: what is "2 2 2 2 2 2"?
2016-07-12T14:58:11Z John[Lisbeth]: well type * 2 2 into slime.
2016-07-12T14:58:23Z John[Lisbeth]: it just evaluates 2, then accepts the next command, 2, and evaluates that
2016-07-12T14:58:54Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: I'm afraid I still don't understand.
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2016-07-12T15:00:33Z jdz: CCL complains about that loop
2016-07-12T15:00:38Z ggole: Evaluating 2 isn't really going to do much for you.
2016-07-12T15:00:52Z ggole: Do you want it to print 2 or something like that?
2016-07-12T15:00:57Z jdz: and so does SBCL
2016-07-12T15:01:35Z John[Lisbeth]: when I type 2 2 into sbcl I get 2 newline * newline 2 newline *
2016-07-12T15:01:50Z John[Lisbeth]: Obviously 2 doesn't do math but I am just trying to get loop working in the first place
2016-07-12T15:02:03Z jdz: what should 2 do?
2016-07-12T15:02:08Z H4ns: John[Lisbeth]: loop works fine, but you'll need to understand it
2016-07-12T15:02:11Z John[Lisbeth]: it should evaluate to the atom 2
2016-07-12T15:02:24Z jdz: does it not?
2016-07-12T15:02:34Z ggole: (loop for i below 10 do (progn 2)), maybe
2016-07-12T15:02:37Z Xach: No, DO requires a "compound form", which is defined
2016-07-12T15:02:44Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't want to do a for loop I want to do while loop
2016-07-12T15:02:46Z H4ns: John[Lisbeth]: DO evaluates an expression for effect, not for return value
2016-07-12T15:02:47Z Xach: as: a non-empty list which is a form: a special form, a lambda form, a macro form, or a function form.
2016-07-12T15:03:07Z Xach: so (loop ... do 42) will not work. 42 is not a compound form.
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2016-07-12T15:03:29Z jdz: both CCL and SBCL actually complain with such an error
2016-07-12T15:03:33Z John[Lisbeth]: I just need a syntax that will let me loop through things
2016-07-12T15:03:36Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: what CL implementation are you using?
2016-07-12T15:03:50Z jdz: loop is fine for that
2016-07-12T15:03:52Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't know. I have sbcl and I installed slime from mepla
2016-07-12T15:04:01Z John[Lisbeth]: loop certainly is fine for that but I don't know how to use it
2016-07-12T15:04:03Z jdz: (loop for x in '(1 2 3) collect (* x 2))
2016-07-12T15:04:04Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: what do you want to be the return value of the loop form?
2016-07-12T15:04:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I want it to print 2 forever and ever and ever
2016-07-12T15:04:25Z jdz: why don't you print 2, then?
2016-07-12T15:04:33Z John[Lisbeth]: Because I want to loop print 2
2016-07-12T15:04:42Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: (loop do (print 2)) will do that.
2016-07-12T15:04:43Z jdz: yes, why don't you print 2 in a loop, then?
2016-07-12T15:05:19Z rme: Or even (loop (print 2)), for that matter.
2016-07-12T15:05:48Z John[Lisbeth]: well (loop do (print 2)) sort of solves my problem for now
2016-07-12T15:05:52Z Xach: dang. that made emacs give up on trying to C-c C-c
2016-07-12T15:05:53Z jdz: sort of?
2016-07-12T15:05:58Z Xach: although C-c M-o still worked.
2016-07-12T15:06:44Z moore33: This reminds me of writing infinite loops in BASIC in the 5th grade...
2016-07-12T15:07:04Z jdz: (tagbody 10 (print 2) 20 (go 10))
2016-07-12T15:07:28Z John[Lisbeth]: jdz: thanks I might steal that
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2016-07-12T15:08:51Z jdz: that's what (loop (print 2)) expands into...
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2016-07-12T15:12:35Z John[Lisbeth]: jdz even more interesting
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2016-07-12T15:13:08Z jdz: why?
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2016-07-12T15:13:20Z jdz: or rather -- what's so interesting about it?
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2016-07-12T15:13:43Z John[Lisbeth]: It's just I never got that far down in a language before
2016-07-12T15:14:03Z jdz: you mean you've never written a working program?
2016-07-12T15:14:22Z John[Lisbeth]: well no that's not what I'm saying. What i'm saying is I've never messed with goto before.
2016-07-12T15:14:29Z John[Lisbeth]: I never worked with basic.
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2016-07-12T15:15:25Z jdz: most "modern" languages don't have goto, that's true
2016-07-12T15:15:41Z jdz: CL is a postmodern programming language
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2016-07-12T15:16:29Z John[Lisbeth]: Is there a way to take (foo) and see what (foo) evaluates to directly?
2016-07-12T15:16:54Z dlowe: ... just evaluate it?
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2016-07-12T15:17:05Z dlowe: or do you mean macroexpand?
2016-07-12T15:17:15Z dlowe: (macroexpand '(foo))
2016-07-12T15:17:35Z moore33: (disassemble 'foo)
2016-07-12T15:17:50Z jdz: or C-c M-m in emacs
2016-07-12T15:18:07Z jdz: emacs/slime
2016-07-12T15:18:19Z jdz: GNU/emacs/slime
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2016-07-12T15:25:02Z Guthur`: John[Lisbeth]: may I recommend going through something like Practical Common Lisp http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2016-07-12T15:25:36Z Guthur`: it'll be the path of least resistance when it comes to learning CL
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2016-07-12T15:30:56Z Grue``: seems like a lot of people get confused by REPL actually printing the result, though it's hard to understand why, it's even in the name
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2016-07-12T15:35:31Z shaftoe: read eval postulate lisp
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2016-07-12T20:32:11Z ZombieChicken: Is it normal to find it a little difficult to figure out what functions one needs when going through the hyperspec? There seem to be a lot of similar-but-different functions for everything...
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2016-07-12T20:34:32Z Xach: ZombieChicken: it can help to read it front to back without any particular aim, and then when you need it, maybe your memory will be tickled enough to remember which does what you need.
2016-07-12T20:34:54Z Xach: ZombieChicken: after a while, you internalize most of the functions, though it's possible to discover new ones after many years of use
2016-07-12T20:35:50Z ZombieChicken: It all seems fairly straight forward naming wise, it's just a lot to take in, especially for one who hasn't done much mental work in a few years
2016-07-12T20:36:21Z ZombieChicken: I think I just need to strap everything together and get SLIMV working and try things out
2016-07-12T20:38:21Z Xach: ZombieChicken: it can help to ask, too. we are your CL concierges.
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2016-07-12T20:39:00Z ZombieChicken: Xach: I really need to trip over myself at this point some before giving up. If I'm entirely lost, I'll ask
2016-07-12T20:39:12Z Xach: ZombieChicken: well, here's an analogy i like
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2016-07-12T20:39:35Z Xach: ZombieChicken: if you start going off the clear path, you may be tempted to ask experts for a chainsaw to cut down all the crazy trees that seem to be in the way
2016-07-12T20:39:44Z Xach: ZombieChicken: but an expert can help you stay on the clear path, or guide you back to it
2016-07-12T20:40:30Z ZombieChicken: Xach: Yeah, but sometimes it's good to bang your head into a tree here or there, or the occasional low-hanging limb to remind you to pay attention to what you're doing instead of having to ask someone to always point the path
2016-07-12T20:40:44Z Xach: truly it is a delicate balance
2016-07-12T20:40:49Z ZombieChicken: aye
2016-07-12T20:41:30Z Grue`: i think it's pretty normal to not know every standard Common Lisp function. however being able to find them in Hyperspec is a skill
2016-07-12T20:41:42Z ZombieChicken: Right now I just need to remember I'm not writing C and testing out random ideas is far, far easier than the patch-compile-test-repatch cycle I had to deal with with C
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2016-07-12T20:42:01Z Xach: yes, interaction is good
2016-07-12T20:42:08Z ZombieChicken: Grue`: Fortunatly, verbose naming conventions helps with that a lot
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2016-07-12T20:43:22Z Xach: "Programming with the old interactive languages is less like building something from a plan, and more like teaching things to an eager assistant."
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2016-07-12T20:43:41Z Xach: a quote from mikel evins that i like, on https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/4oo1cp/common_lisp_for_clojure_programmer/d4eec68
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2016-07-12T22:02:08Z p_l: Xach: following to the SK8 discussion is also very enlightening
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2016-07-12T22:08:00Z rel: Has anyone here seen the OCW video lectures on lisp?
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2016-07-12T22:10:22Z p_l: 6.001?
2016-07-12T22:10:50Z rel: yeah
2016-07-12T22:12:48Z p_l: going to, haven't had time yet
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2016-07-12T22:13:44Z rel: Just wondered if it's worth investing that precious time
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2016-07-12T22:14:10Z rel: //////
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2016-07-12T22:28:05Z jsgrant: mordocai: Tentatively excited for the first "Arch Lisp" meetup, I just saw on my feed. Have a family thing I may have to tend to beforehand or possibly in-place of ... but, if I can, I will -- be there. :^)
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2016-07-12T22:36:59Z mordocai: jsgrant: excellent :). Nothing special talk wise but i'm going to see if I can record it
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2016-07-12T22:38:48Z jsgrant: mordocai: ++ That'd be very nice/neat. We need a lot more discoverable Lisp content floating around the ether of the net.
2016-07-12T22:45:22Z jsgrant: Brb.
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2016-07-12T22:46:08Z ZombieChicken: Hrm. Apparently SWANK doesn't like being used for a SBCL "shell script". It craps itself on the hashbang at the start of the file
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2016-07-12T22:47:56Z brfennpo`: :-( yeah, ran into that here as well. I just make the shell scripts one-liners to load the real ones now.
2016-07-12T22:48:13Z ZombieChicken: Just a shell wrapper? Makes sense
2016-07-12T22:48:45Z brfennpo`: for bonus points the shell script method doesn't (seem to) load FASL but (load …) will.
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2016-07-12T22:49:02Z ZombieChicken: FASL?
2016-07-12T22:50:08Z brfennpo`: if you (compile-file … ) you get a FASt Load file that starts up a bit quicker
2016-07-12T22:50:15Z ZombieChicken: meh
2016-07-12T22:50:23Z ZombieChicken: This is just a short script for KSP
2016-07-12T22:50:31Z ZombieChicken: Hardly time consuming in any regard
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2016-07-12T22:51:34Z porky11: hi
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2016-07-12T22:52:21Z porky11: is there some lib for apl-like (or J-like) syntax for lisp?
2016-07-12T22:52:33Z pillton: You can make scripts by replacing the #! with: ":" ; exec sbcl --no-userinit --load "$0"
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2016-07-12T22:54:44Z pillton: The above works for any lisp. SBCL has special support. See http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Shebang-Scripts
2016-07-12T22:55:33Z rme: porky11: I've never heard of anything like that.  I've seen people fiddle around so that you can write "λ" instead of "lambda", but that's about it.  In CL, you tend to see long-names-like-this.
2016-07-12T22:55:55Z ZombieChicken: pillton: ty for the link
2016-07-12T22:56:17Z ZombieChicken: and yet another site that doesn't work for me. I think my proxy chain is broken somewhere...
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2016-07-12T22:56:42Z pillton: ZombieChicken: I had problems getting to sbcl.org.
2016-07-12T22:57:09Z brfennpo`: porky11: if you mean like function[param1;param2] it's called M-expressions and quite unpopular, but see eg http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/m-expression.lisp
2016-07-12T22:57:11Z ZombieChicken: okay, it seems like it isn't my proxy chain then
2016-07-12T22:57:37Z ZombieChicken: I had similar problems with vim.org, so that's interesting
2016-07-12T22:59:07Z ZombieChicken: Just looking for input on style here. How does this look so far? http://dpaste.com/1TDHWED
2016-07-12T23:00:13Z pillton: ZombieChicken: http://www.cliki.net/coding%20convention
2016-07-12T23:01:14Z porky11: brfennpo`: no, m-expressions are not similar to apl
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2016-07-12T23:06:29Z brfennpo`: similar to Jscript, not APL, yes
2016-07-12T23:09:01Z p_l: that said, someone here once implemented bit of APL in reader macros...
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2016-07-12T23:17:17Z Bike: oh, yeah, i remember that https://github.com/stassats/closer-apl it was a joke, of course
2016-07-12T23:17:32Z ZombieChicken: APL?
2016-07-12T23:17:50Z Bike: a programming language
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2016-07-12T23:20:06Z sjl: is there a nice way in backquote to say "insert this thing if it's non-nil, otherwise don't splice in anything at all"?
2016-07-12T23:20:27Z Bike: ,@(if thing (list thing) nil)
2016-07-12T23:20:31Z Bike: i mean, for some value of "nice"
2016-07-12T23:20:51Z sjl: yeah, I was hoping for nicer, heh
2016-07-12T23:21:21Z Bike: you could make that a function and do ,@(listify thing)
2016-07-12T23:21:49Z ZombieChicken: I love how that isn't considered nice here. Seems fairly simple to me, at least
2016-07-12T23:22:04Z sjl: I think (when thing (list thing)) will be okay for what I need it for
2016-07-12T23:23:07Z sjl: it's annoying in this case because thing itself is a list... lots of parens here
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2016-07-12T23:28:14Z ZombieChicken: Stupid question; how do I read a docstring for a function from within the REPL?
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2016-07-12T23:29:16Z pillton: clhs describe
2016-07-12T23:29:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_descri.htm
2016-07-12T23:29:21Z pillton: clhs documentation
2016-07-12T23:29:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2016-07-12T23:30:09Z porky11: you could also (defun listnil (&rest elements) …) then you just will need parens once sjl
2016-07-12T23:30:53Z sjl: porky11: ah that's an easy way to do the wrapping, yeah
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2016-07-12T23:32:58Z sjl: good lord... what have I done https://i.imgur.com/1iX8eaW.png
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2016-07-12T23:33:34Z porky11: Bike, closer-apl isn't what i want, just some similar kind of binary operators, also like j, but not these symbols ^^
2016-07-12T23:33:58Z Bike: the no, nobody has done that. have you considered just using J
2016-07-12T23:35:59Z porky11: no, i just want to try some other but still simple syntax for lisp
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2016-07-12T23:36:23Z jsgrant: Woops, thought I had autojoin on. :^P
2016-07-12T23:36:47Z ZombieChicken: Hrm. Both (documentation $FUNC) and (describe $FUNC) provide me pretty much nothing other than "The variable $VAR is unbound.". These are for functions I've defined in this file, so I know the docstring is there
2016-07-12T23:37:20Z porky11: good night all
2016-07-12T23:37:25Z ZombieChicken: Night
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2016-07-12T23:38:08Z rme: (documentation 'pairlis 'function)
2016-07-12T23:38:18Z jsgrant: mordocai: Either way, real excited though; Only was able to go to one to the Racket-STL meetups (first I think) and there was on like maybe ... 5 to 7?
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2016-07-12T23:42:42Z sjl: ZombieChicken: documentation takes a symbol, so you'll need to quote it
2016-07-12T23:43:55Z ZombieChicken: I noticed that (found a post about someone asking questions on making docstrings pretty when multiline) and am trying to duplicate their line, but still getting nothing. Just can't figure out the type now it seems
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2016-07-12T23:49:40Z ZombieChicken: found it!
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2016-07-13T00:01:51Z Tuvoi: Pssssst. Anyone know a resource that explains exactly how car and cdr navigate nested lists, per recursion?
2016-07-13T00:02:16Z Tuvoi: Dialect is scheme, if that's relevant
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2016-07-13T00:03:38Z oGMo: Tuvoi: this channel is common lisp, but i can't imagine it'd be different, and "navigate nested lists" is not something they really do
2016-07-13T00:04:02Z oGMo: they pick the car or cdr values of a cons cell, any further navigation is up to you
2016-07-13T00:05:09Z oGMo: "how conses and lists work" is lisp 101, so you should probably read on that
2016-07-13T00:05:16Z Tuvoi: Ah, well. I'm reading a book: "The Little Schemer." I know that car will navigate "down" each recursion, but not the details of cdr.
2016-07-13T00:05:48Z oGMo: not unless scheme works in some incomprehensibly different way
2016-07-13T00:06:07Z oGMo: that is not what car does
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2016-07-13T00:07:26Z Tuvoi: For example ((alpha beta) one two). Car would select the S-Expression of (alpha beta) first, and the atom alpha on a second recursion.
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2016-07-13T00:08:28Z oGMo: s-expressions are something you type, not something that is data
2016-07-13T00:08:40Z pierpa: the little schemer explanation of how this works should be good enough
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2016-07-13T00:09:28Z pierpa: maybe you should just read a little more of it
2016-07-13T00:09:32Z oGMo: that list is '((alpha . (beta . nil)) . (one . (two . nil))) written out fully
2016-07-13T00:09:32Z Tuvoi: Oh, right. Lists are data, s-expressions are syntax.
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2016-07-13T00:09:53Z oGMo: CAR gives you the "left" cell, CDR gives you the "right" cell
2016-07-13T00:10:38Z oGMo: (and the car/cdr of NIL are also NIL, at least in CL)
2016-07-13T00:11:34Z oGMo: it's sortof important not to be confused about that, because if you think it's something more complicated you'll eventually wonder why it's not more magical
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2016-07-13T00:12:15Z Tuvoi: Okies. That's close to what I thought. The point of curiosity, though: (((needlessly deep atoms))shallow). Would two nils be encountered between atoms and shallow? Or only one? I'm not sure if it escapes all those nested lists, or one at a time.
2016-07-13T00:12:40Z oGMo: there is no "between"
2016-07-13T00:13:35Z oGMo: (needlessly . (deep . (atoms . nil))) .. understand the NIL is at the end of a chain of conses
2016-07-13T00:14:11Z oGMo: _don't_ conceptualize there's something "hiding between parens" .. in fact, forget about parens as soon as possible :P
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2016-07-13T00:15:00Z oGMo: parens don't exist in lisp
2016-07-13T00:15:39Z Tuvoi: Humm. So CDR would navigate to the next highest atom. Only time a list of a list could be returned is with car.(?)
2016-07-13T00:16:00Z Tuvoi: It's possible scheme works differently, if that's not the case in clisp
2016-07-13T00:16:09Z Bike: "highest"?
2016-07-13T00:16:20Z Bike: there's no way little schemer is using terminology like that.
2016-07-13T00:16:26Z oGMo: serious misconceptions here heh
2016-07-13T00:16:33Z Bike: a cons has two things in it, the car and the cdr. that is all there is to it.
2016-07-13T00:16:40Z Tuvoi: Nah, I made that up. I don't know how else to describe how deeply something is nested.
2016-07-13T00:16:45Z oGMo: yeah if there's a book that says these things, stop reading it
2016-07-13T00:16:46Z Bike: (alpha . beta) - alpha is the car, beta is the cdr.
2016-07-13T00:16:55Z oGMo: ^
2016-07-13T00:17:36Z Zhivago: I suggest instead of cons to talk about lists and first and rest.
2016-07-13T00:17:46Z brfennpo`: http://people.csail.mit.edu/devadas/6.001/rec5.pdf — the infamously helpful SICP “Cons Boxes” slides
2016-07-13T00:17:57Z Zhivago: If you're using cons to produce non-list structures, then car/cdr may make sense -- otherwise I'd avoid them.
2016-07-13T00:18:10Z oGMo: brfennpo`: yes that's a good one
2016-07-13T00:18:14Z Bike: this is learning how lists are made of conses, so
2016-07-13T00:19:03Z Zhivago: Instead, I would talk about a list being made of a first element and the rest of the list.
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2016-07-13T00:19:21Z Zhivago: Understanding the recursive definition of list usually makes it easier.
2016-07-13T00:19:53Z Zhivago: (and you can't quite do that with CONS)
2016-07-13T00:20:46Z Tuvoi: I'm likely not explaining it properly. Here's a screen of the book, it's quite old. ('94 or '98?) http://puu.sh/pZG6z/90e26d6511.png
2016-07-13T00:21:20Z Bike: okay, well, it doesn't mean that car is "down" and cdr is "up". it means that either one is "down" from the cons.
2016-07-13T00:21:31Z Tuvoi: Second to last line after 'else' is called recursively to retrieve atoms from retrieve lists
2016-07-13T00:21:38Z BRFennPocock: haha :-) car/cdr are kinda 60s tech so '94 is really quite new :-)
2016-07-13T00:22:30Z Tuvoi: Ah, yes. It can go "down" but does not necessarily do so, simply depends on what's next, is the impression I had.
2016-07-13T00:23:37Z Tuvoi: I'm afraid I may have rubber-ducked you all, I'm starting to understand it on my own. Whoops...
2016-07-13T00:23:39Z Zhivago: Generally 'car' and 'cdr' are both down, in that they move deeper in the tree structure.
2016-07-13T00:23:59Z Zhivago: If you draw the list out as a binary tree it should make that clearer.
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2016-07-13T00:51:31Z Tuvoi: brfennpo`: Got around to reading that. It explicitly answers the question I had, thank you very much :>
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2016-07-13T01:12:28Z muyinliu: hi guys, http://www.sbcl.org/  now can NOT be access, what happen?
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2016-07-13T01:16:42Z jsgrant: muyinliu: Have you tried in #sbcl channel? Not sure who maintains/runs that domain.
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2016-07-13T01:18:21Z muyinliu: jsgrant: OK
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2016-07-13T03:03:02Z pmc: In this call why does z get bound to (d e)? (structuring-bind (w (x y) . z) '(a (b c) d e) z)
2016-07-13T03:03:10Z pmc: Why not z == d?
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2016-07-13T03:05:57Z Zhivago: Because of the .
2016-07-13T03:06:19Z Zhivago: You're binding the tail of the list, not the elements
2016-07-13T03:08:05Z pmc: ok, thanks!
2016-07-13T03:08:24Z pierpa: clhs locally
2016-07-13T03:08:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_locall.htm
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2016-07-13T03:11:23Z pmc: What does the test-not keyword do when you use it on a sequence?
2016-07-13T03:12:58Z pierpa: it's like test but the result of the argument function is negated
2016-07-13T03:13:08Z pmc: plerpa, cool thanks!
2016-07-13T03:13:19Z pierpa: yw
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2016-07-13T03:17:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-13T03:20:08Z jsgrant: beach: o/
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2016-07-13T03:40:04Z Fare: beach: bonjour!
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2016-07-13T03:49:19Z fugue: Howdy! Stuck a bit, I have an assoc list '(A (W X Y Z)) and I have a list of letters '(R G B). I need to come up with every possible combination for the assoc list, using R G B
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2016-07-13T03:49:40Z fugue: (R (R R R R)), (R (R R R G)) and so on
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2016-07-13T03:49:57Z beach: fugue: What do you mean by an "assoc list"?
2016-07-13T03:50:08Z fugue: association list
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2016-07-13T03:50:26Z beach: fugue: In what way are your lists association lists?
2016-07-13T03:50:41Z fugue: It's of the form '( (A (W X Y Z)) (B (Z X C V)) )
2016-07-13T03:51:01Z fugue: In that case, W X Y Z share something in common with A
2016-07-13T03:51:15Z fugue: Z X C V has something in common with B
2016-07-13T03:51:31Z fugue: this is a map-coloring problem, which you may have guessed already
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2016-07-13T03:51:49Z beach: Me?  I am barely awake.
2016-07-13T03:51:56Z fugue: That makes two of us
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2016-07-13T03:53:10Z beach: You are saying (R (R R R R)) is somehow similar to (A (W X Y Z)) by I don't see how you link the first R with the A.
2016-07-13T03:53:55Z fugue: Well, the algorithm we are to use, firstly creates *all* color combinations.
2016-07-13T03:54:07Z fugue: Then we'll go through and test if each of them work
2016-07-13T03:55:13Z fugue: So in my case, I have 2 countries, A and B and 3 colors R G B, I should get 3^2 combinations
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2016-07-13T03:55:32Z beach: Oh, now we are getting somewhere.  A and B are countries.
2016-07-13T03:55:40Z fugue: R R, R G, R B, G R, G G, G B, B R, B G, B B
2016-07-13T03:55:57Z beach: Finally, you are making some sense.
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2016-07-13T03:56:06Z beach: Are W X etc also countries?
2016-07-13T03:56:13Z fugue: Yeah
2016-07-13T03:56:22Z beach: And is "something in common" the neighbor?
2016-07-13T03:56:34Z fugue: Yeah, bordering country
2016-07-13T03:56:36Z beach: You could have said that to start with.  It would have helped.
2016-07-13T03:56:56Z fugue: You are right, I'm awful :/
2016-07-13T03:57:06Z fugue: 2 midterms in 2 days...
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2016-07-13T03:57:24Z beach: So (R (R R R R)) is not a good solution, since the country and its neighbors all have the same color, right?
2016-07-13T03:57:46Z fugue: Yeah, I dont have to worry about the solution right now, I just have to generate all possible comibinations
2016-07-13T03:58:08Z fugue: That will be the next part
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2016-07-13T04:00:53Z beach: So can your problem be described this way: You have a number N (indicating the number of neighbors of some country + 1) and a list of M colors, and you want to create all M^N combinations of the colors.
2016-07-13T04:01:37Z fugue: Yeah. Now thats how I should have described it
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2016-07-13T04:02:10Z beach: Recurse on N and loop over the colors in each recursion.
2016-07-13T04:03:32Z beach: If N = 0 then it's the empty list.
2016-07-13T04:04:31Z fugue: Yeah, that's the problem I'm having setting it up. Would this be 1 function?
2016-07-13T04:04:44Z beach: Otherwise, call recursively with N-1.  This will give a list of lists.  Each inner list is of length N-1.  Loop over the colors, and for each color, CONS that color to each of the inner lists.  Append the result of each loop.
2016-07-13T04:04:53Z beach: Yes, one function.
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2016-07-13T04:07:35Z beach: I should have said, when N = 0, the result is a list containing a single element, the empty list.
2016-07-13T04:07:55Z beach: Because the contract is to return a list of all possible solutions.
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2016-07-13T04:08:23Z beach: Do you need more help?
2016-07-13T04:09:26Z beach: Like do you know how to take an element E and a list L of lists of length N and produce a list of lists of length N+1 that are like the ones in L except with E CONSed to the front?
2016-07-13T04:09:27Z fugue: Yeah, I'm trying to sorta wrap my head around what you said and figure out how to translate it to lisp
2016-07-13T04:09:53Z fugue: No, I don't know how to do that
2016-07-13T04:10:08Z fugue: This is my first couple of weeks learning LISP
2016-07-13T04:10:31Z beach: For example, how to take X and ((A B) (C D) (E F)) and return ((X A B) (X C D) (X E F))?
2016-07-13T04:11:20Z fugue: I would loop for each lst in L and push X on lst
2016-07-13T04:11:20Z beach: OK, so you need to figure that one out first.
2016-07-13T04:11:42Z beach: You don't want to do this with side effects.  Use functional style.
2016-07-13T04:11:49Z beach: It is much easier to understand at this stage.
2016-07-13T04:12:13Z beach: PUSH is side-effecty.  CONS is not.
2016-07-13T04:12:28Z beach: Yes, you can loop, or you can use MAPCAR.
2016-07-13T04:12:33Z beach: clhs mapcar
2016-07-13T04:12:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm
2016-07-13T04:12:43Z beach: Whatever you are more comfortable with.
2016-07-13T04:13:04Z fugue: cons seems reasonable, so loop over each lst in L and cons X to lst
2016-07-13T04:13:18Z beach: ... and collect the result, yes.
2016-07-13T04:14:00Z beach: (loop for inner-list in list collect (cons x inner-list))
2016-07-13T04:14:20Z beach: You can turn that one into a separate function if you want.
2016-07-13T04:14:55Z beach: Call it, say, prepend-element.
2016-07-13T04:15:56Z fugue: * (prepend '(A B C) 'R)
2016-07-13T04:15:56Z fugue: ((R . A) (R . B) (R . C))
2016-07-13T04:16:15Z beach: Yes, but (A B C) is not a list of lists.
2016-07-13T04:16:27Z beach: Better try (prepend '((a) (b) (c)) 'r)
2016-07-13T04:16:41Z fugue: * (prepend '((a) (b) (c)) 'r)
2016-07-13T04:16:42Z fugue: ((R A) (R B) (R C))
2016-07-13T04:16:47Z beach: See?
2016-07-13T04:16:50Z beach: It works already.
2016-07-13T04:17:05Z fugue: This is what I have so far: (loop for a in lst collect (cons color a))
2016-07-13T04:17:29Z beach: Please don't call your variable LST.  Call it LIST instead.
2016-07-13T04:18:03Z fugue: I should probably change 'a' as well
2016-07-13T04:18:12Z beach: Yeah, probably.
2016-07-13T04:18:24Z beach: But it is more neutral so it matters less.
2016-07-13T04:18:31Z beach: It could be any object.
2016-07-13T04:19:35Z beach: Perhaps (loop for colors in list collect (cons color colors)) if you want to be more specific.
2016-07-13T04:21:01Z fugue: ((A (B C E)) (B (A E F))
2016-07-13T04:21:07Z fugue: * (prepend mylist 'r)
2016-07-13T04:21:07Z fugue: ((R A (B C E)) (R B (A E F))
2016-07-13T04:22:19Z beach: For now, don't use the representation (A (B C E)) of a country.  Use (A B C E) instead.
2016-07-13T04:22:28Z fugue: Alright
2016-07-13T04:22:32Z beach: Because that is what your function will generate.
2016-07-13T04:22:41Z beach: You can fix that later if you need to.
2016-07-13T04:23:03Z beach: But there is really no need, unless you have to conform to a particular representation.
2016-07-13T04:23:50Z beach: Now imagine calling PREPEND with the same list ((X) (Y) (Z)) and with each of the colors, say R G B.  You will get three lists ((R X) (R Y) (R Z)),  ((G X) (G Y) (G Z)), ((B X) (B Y) (B Z)).
2016-07-13T04:24:35Z beach: If you APPEND those three lists, you have the result for N.
2016-07-13T04:26:08Z fugue: But I would need to remove the X, Y and Z
2016-07-13T04:26:13Z beach: You may want to create a function PREPEND-ALL that takes the list ((X) (Y) (Z)) and the list (R G B) and that calls PREPEND and returns what I just said.
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2016-07-13T04:27:08Z beach: Try ((R) (G) (B)) instead of ((X) (Y) (Z))
2016-07-13T04:27:08Z jsgrant: Not sure if I've asked here before awhile back, or was just thinking about it... gonna ask anyways. Anyone run through "A Gentle Introduction To Symbolic Computing"? I'm thinking of starting a blog where I run through all the big Common Lisp books from beginner to advanced, and this seems like one of the few I'd do right at the start with the likes of "Land of Lisp".
2016-07-13T04:28:14Z beach: fugue: You need to learn to break down the problem and temporarily put your final goal on hold.
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2016-07-13T04:28:56Z beach: fugue: If you are convinced that PREPEND works as advertised, you can now assume it is a tool in your toolbox, and more on to the next step.
2016-07-13T04:29:01Z fugue: * (prepend-all '((a) (b) (c)) '(R G B))
2016-07-13T04:29:01Z fugue: (((R A) (R B) (R C)) ((G A) (G B) (G C)) ((B A) (B B) (B C)))
2016-07-13T04:29:08Z jsgrant: * And I guess if that sounds like an interesting idea for a blogroll.
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2016-07-13T04:29:26Z beach: fugue: You didn't use APPEND.
2016-07-13T04:29:39Z jsgrant: Seems /finally/ seem like they may be calming down for a bit & I can get some real study time down. :^)
2016-07-13T04:29:41Z beach: fugue: How did you come up with that result?
2016-07-13T04:30:04Z fugue: Let me paste it
2016-07-13T04:30:18Z beach: jsgrant: I am not sufficiently awake to have two discussion threads going.  I'll read what you said later.
2016-07-13T04:30:31Z jsgrant: beach: Np.
2016-07-13T04:30:33Z fugue: beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320335
2016-07-13T04:30:55Z jsgrant is probably going to bed in the next hour to hour-and-a-half though, fyi.
2016-07-13T04:31:26Z beach: fugue: Replace COLLECT by APPEND in prepend-all.  I said you need to APPEND the lists, not create a list of them.
2016-07-13T04:31:54Z beach: fugue: Also, when you show code for people to read, you need to indent it properly.  It is very impolite otherwise.  You force your reader to count parentheses.
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2016-07-13T04:32:27Z fugue: Is there a tool online that can help me with indentation?
2016-07-13T04:32:39Z beach: Yes, Emacs and SLIME.
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2016-07-13T04:34:08Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320335#1
2016-07-13T04:34:18Z fugue: Does that look better?
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2016-07-13T04:35:27Z beach: Yes.  Typically, you would put the LOOP keywords first on a line so APPEND (PREPEND LIST C) would be the second line of the loop, etc.
2016-07-13T04:35:43Z fugue: beach: How can I save the list to a variable which I can use again
2016-07-13T04:36:36Z fugue: Oh, its appending it to 'list'
2016-07-13T04:36:42Z beach: fugue: That is not how you should think about it.  You should think "functional programming".
2016-07-13T04:37:38Z beach: fugue: Now, imagine you have some integer value N and some colors, say (R G B).
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2016-07-13T04:38:02Z beach: You want to generate all possible lists of length N, containing all combinations of the colors.  OK?
2016-07-13T04:38:20Z emaczen: (write-to-string "\\u2212" :escape nil) -- shouldn't this print "\u2212" ?
2016-07-13T04:38:40Z fugue: Alright
2016-07-13T04:38:56Z beach: fugue: If N is 0, the answer is (()).  OK?
2016-07-13T04:39:21Z beach: fugue: There is only one list of length 0 containing all combinations of R G B, right?
2016-07-13T04:39:34Z beach: That list is ().
2016-07-13T04:39:41Z fugue: That is correct
2016-07-13T04:40:25Z beach: OK, now imagine that N = 1.  You would first call yourself recursively to obtain (()).  Then you would call prepend-all on that result and (R G B).
2016-07-13T04:40:38Z beach: That gives ((R) (G) (B)), right?
2016-07-13T04:40:51Z fugue: thats right
2016-07-13T04:42:17Z beach: fugue: Now imagine N = 2.  You would first call yourself recursively with N = 1 to obtain ((R) (G) (B)) and then call prepend-all on that result and (R G B).  You get ((R R) (R G) (R B) (G R) (G G) (G B) (B R) (B G) (B B)), right?
2016-07-13T04:42:46Z beach: fugue: Now imagine N = 3.  But this is your turn now.
2016-07-13T04:44:19Z fugue: Thats 27 lists to type!
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2016-07-13T04:44:36Z beach: fugue: Don't type it.
2016-07-13T04:44:40Z beach: Write a function to do it.
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2016-07-13T04:44:57Z beach: Call it, say, generate-all-combinations.
2016-07-13T04:45:05Z beach: it takes N and a list of colors.
2016-07-13T04:45:54Z beach: GENERATE-ALL-COMBINATIONS is a recursive function.  You know what to return when N = 0.  We call that the BASE CASE.
2016-07-13T04:47:02Z beach: If N ≠ 0, then call GENERATE-ALL-COMBINATIONS with N-1 and call prepend-all with the result.
2016-07-13T04:47:22Z beach: fugue: Can you do that?
2016-07-13T04:47:39Z fugue: Going to take a stab at it
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2016-07-13T04:54:21Z beach: fugue: Have you written recursive code before?
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2016-07-13T04:54:37Z fugue: Yeah, but not in LISP
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2016-07-13T04:54:50Z beach: OK.  "Lisp", not "LISP" :)
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2016-07-13T04:55:08Z fugue: Ha, well not in Lisp* :]
2016-07-13T04:55:18Z beach: fugue: You are almost there.
2016-07-13T04:55:54Z beach: It's a 3-line function.
2016-07-13T04:56:06Z fugue: is this close: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320336
2016-07-13T04:56:11Z fugue: I know i haven't called prepend-all
2016-07-13T04:56:47Z beach: Right, wrap the recursive call in a call to prepend-all.  And indent the code.
2016-07-13T04:57:10Z beach: And it is not COLOR, it is COLORS.
2016-07-13T04:57:19Z beach: ... in plural form.
2016-07-13T04:57:39Z fugue: So prepend-all looks like this: (defun prepend-all (list color)
2016-07-13T04:57:54Z fugue: What would I give for the first arg?
2016-07-13T04:58:11Z beach: Oh, wait, did I miss one step?
2016-07-13T04:58:46Z beach: No, I did not.
2016-07-13T04:59:03Z beach: prepend-all is (list colorS)
2016-07-13T04:59:06Z beach: not (list color)
2016-07-13T04:59:16Z fugue: oh right
2016-07-13T04:59:41Z fugue: (defun prepend (list color)
2016-07-13T04:59:46Z fugue: That's color only ^
2016-07-13T04:59:53Z beach: Correct.
2016-07-13T05:00:29Z fugue: 'wrap the recursive call in a call to prepend-all.' <-- that part I'm having trouble with
2016-07-13T05:00:38Z beach: So now just pass the result of the recursive call as the first argument to prepend-all and pass colors as the second argument.
2016-07-13T05:01:21Z beach: (prepend-all (gen-combos (- N 1) colors) colors)
2016-07-13T05:01:41Z fugue: oh man
2016-07-13T05:01:55Z fugue: You probably wouldn't believe me, but I literally just tried that
2016-07-13T05:02:02Z fugue: * (gen-combos 2 '(R G B))
2016-07-13T05:02:02Z fugue: ((R R) (R G) (R B) (G R) (G G) (G B) (B R) (B G) (B B))
2016-07-13T05:02:08Z beach: TADA!
2016-07-13T05:02:18Z fugue: ((R R R) (R R G) (R R B) (R G R) (R G G) (R G B) (R B R) (R B G) (R B B)
2016-07-13T05:02:18Z fugue:  (G R R) (G R G) (G R B) (G G R) (G G G) (G G B) (G B R) (G B G) (G B B)
2016-07-13T05:02:18Z fugue:  (B R R) (B R G) (B R B) (B G R) (B G G) (B G B) (B B R) (B B G) (B B B))
2016-07-13T05:02:34Z beach: Standard recursive programming technique.
2016-07-13T05:02:48Z beach: You can TRACE your functions and study how it does it if you want.
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2016-07-13T05:05:44Z beach: jsgrant: So you want a blog with reviews of all major Lisp books?  Sounds like a good idea.
2016-07-13T05:06:24Z beach: jsgrant: Do you want the reviews to be "neutral", i.e., just descriptive, or do you want people to have opinions as well?
2016-07-13T05:06:35Z fugue: beach: this has been a great learning experience for me. Thank you very much.
2016-07-13T05:06:35Z beach: If the latter, you may want several entries for each book.
2016-07-13T05:06:46Z fugue: I appreciate your time
2016-07-13T05:06:55Z beach: fugue: Anytime!  Glad I could help.
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2016-07-13T05:09:14Z beach: fugue: Final touch: indent your code, use (zerop n) rather than (= n 0) and use (1- n) rather than (- n 1).  The general rule is "use the most specific construct that will do the trick.  Oh, and no whitespace before a closing parenthesis.
2016-07-13T05:09:44Z beach: fugue: But we might have the opportunity to get back to that kind of fine tuning.
2016-07-13T05:09:56Z beach: fugue: Good luck with the rest!
2016-07-13T05:10:35Z fugue: I will keep all that in mind and make the changes :) And thanks again! I better get some sleep since I have class tomorrow morning. Have a good night!
2016-07-13T05:10:50Z beach: 'night fugue.
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2016-07-13T06:17:14Z rumbler3_: hello lisp
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2016-07-13T06:20:04Z rumbler3_: I have a list of lists data structure, and I wish to save it in a readable form in order to include it in a source file
2016-07-13T06:20:26Z rumbler3_: there's nothing special in it, its just a plist.  One of the fields is an array
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2016-07-13T06:23:36Z Bike: PRINT it to a file, then
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2016-07-13T06:38:04Z rumbler3_: i see
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2016-07-13T06:42:30Z rumbler3_: it seems stupid simple, but it works and thats awesome
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2016-07-13T07:06:22Z John[Lisbeth]: Have there been major attempts in the past to design rigid type systems for common lisp like in c or haskell, that within those environments are optomized for certain things, but outside those environments still have the flux types of lisp?
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2016-07-13T07:08:03Z Bike: yeah, people do that all the time. like typed racket and such.
2016-07-13T07:08:45Z John[Lisbeth]: So I could do low level programming in lisp if I made sort of a low level sandbox for myself.
2016-07-13T07:09:12Z Bike: types don't make something low level.
2016-07-13T07:09:22Z Bike: i mean you're the one who said haskell.
2016-07-13T07:09:32Z John[Lisbeth]: true, but I could design my own functions which use these low level types and other such things
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2016-07-13T07:09:38Z Bike: and while i'm at it, C's types suck ass from a type perspective.
2016-07-13T07:09:47Z Bike: lisp already has "low level types" if you mean bitfields and stuff.
2016-07-13T07:10:09Z John[Lisbeth]: The thing is I hang with some electrical engineers and they have alot of tight design restraints.
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2016-07-13T07:10:22Z Zhivago: C's types are perhaps better considered as classes rather than types.
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2016-07-13T07:10:55Z Bike: electrical engineers suck at writing code. just in general.
2016-07-13T07:11:19Z John[Lisbeth]: They suck at writing high level code, but for really high preformance robots and machines they have to have really thight time and resource restraints
2016-07-13T07:11:23Z Bike: but yes, sometimes you need to get the timing correct and so on. that might not be doable just with types.
2016-07-13T07:11:27Z eschatologist: Doing low-level programming has nothing to do with having a type system like C's.
2016-07-13T07:11:38Z John[Lisbeth]: I have a friend who just does robots for a living and doenst write any code with memory
2016-07-13T07:11:55Z eschatologist: Take a look at Mezzano if you want to see how it's done.
2016-07-13T07:12:01Z Zhivago: Those issues are probable more related to eager/lazy evaluation, garbage collection, etc.
2016-07-13T07:12:03Z eschatologist: Or at the CADR codebase.
2016-07-13T07:12:49Z Zhivago: C's "low level" suitability being in its nature as an over-eager system requiring custom garbage collection.
2016-07-13T07:12:54Z John[Lisbeth]: To convince my friend that lisp is good I've got to convince him that he can create a sandbox in which he can rip out alot of the things that make lisp good and program like how he would in c. And his favorite thing in c is a finite state machine.
2016-07-13T07:13:06Z John[Lisbeth]: Unless he has no os in which case he uses RTOS
2016-07-13T07:13:16Z Zhivago: That's highly reasonable -- he might be interested in Baker's Linear Lisp proposal.
2016-07-13T07:13:37Z John[Lisbeth]: is that an essay I can read?
2016-07-13T07:14:21Z Zhivago: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html
2016-07-13T07:22:53Z John[Lisbeth]: Very interesting though a little over my head at my current experience level. To me I parse that essay as changing the language's base in order to facilitate different optomizations to the language.
2016-07-13T07:25:11Z John[Lisbeth]: Which is sort of like what I'm getting at I suppose.
2016-07-13T07:26:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I suppose what I am getting at is that if I wrote code in c, then it would only work in c, but if I wrote code in lisp with datastructures and functions similar to c's datastructures and functions, then it would be much more portable in a sense.
2016-07-13T07:26:59Z Zhivago: In what sense? :)
2016-07-13T07:27:02Z Grue`: pretty sure c is more portable than lisp
2016-07-13T07:27:04Z John[Lisbeth]: Becuse if two different people do the same thing, lets say for copying lisps and c's techniques, but both in common lisp, then those two can communicate through each other through the language of lisp which hosts them
2016-07-13T07:27:16Z Bike: the problem is that when you write embedded C, a lot of the time it's not really C. you're writing for a specific-purpose compiler that doesn't do optimizations, so you can get away with writing empty for loops for time, and so on.
2016-07-13T07:27:41Z John[Lisbeth]: True. My engineer buddies hate optomizations
2016-07-13T07:28:52Z John[Lisbeth]: If I wrote some c code and I wrote some lisp code and I wrote some python code and tried to connect those three pieces of code together, I might have a rought time. But if I wrote some lisp that allowed me to copy the style and typing of python, c, and haskell, and programmed in those environments respectively, then I could connect those togther through common lisp
2016-07-13T07:29:29Z Bike: you'd still need an ffi. those are complicated.
2016-07-13T07:30:37Z John[Lisbeth]: What does ffi stand for?
2016-07-13T07:30:49Z Bike: foreign function interface
2016-07-13T07:31:15Z John[Lisbeth]: Well I would say that the common lisp host would act as the middle man. Sort of like the json of the situation
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2016-07-13T07:31:32Z Bike: those are not comparable things
2016-07-13T07:31:55Z Bike: if you mean that you actually have a haskell implementation in the lisp image, that works i guess, but it's a pretty big undertaking
2016-07-13T07:32:43Z John[Lisbeth]: Lets call this special lisp code that behaves like python "Python lisp" for berevity sake. And call the haskell one "haskell lisp" and the c one "c lisp." C lisp can talk to lisp and lisp can talk to c lisp. But c lisp can not talk to haskell lisp. Neither can haskell lisp talk to c lisp or haskell lisp talk to python lisp.
2016-07-13T07:32:57Z John[Lisbeth]: Well not "exactly haskell"
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2016-07-13T07:33:09Z John[Lisbeth]: to copy haskell exactly would be more effort than it is worth, but you could make an approximate haskell
2016-07-13T07:33:16Z John[Lisbeth]: one that is haskelly enough for the types to be an advantage
2016-07-13T07:33:17Z Zhivago: Um, why do we think lisp would be a good RPC protocol?
2016-07-13T07:33:23Z Bike: So you can't actually run Haskell code in general.
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2016-07-13T07:33:33Z John[Lisbeth]: Whell I am saying haskelly code
2016-07-13T07:33:40Z Bike: meaning you probably couldn't take advantage of existing haskell code.
2016-07-13T07:34:02Z John[Lisbeth]: exactly. You would have to start making langauges as sub languages in lisp instead of independent langauge if this paradigm took off.
2016-07-13T07:34:15Z Zhivago: In which you could run code if you rewrote it?
2016-07-13T07:34:24Z Bike: yeah i mean... what is the point exactly
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2016-07-13T07:34:51Z John[Lisbeth]: The point would be to reduce some of the fragmentation in programming.
2016-07-13T07:34:57Z John[Lisbeth]: Unify things more.
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2016-07-13T07:35:13Z John[Lisbeth]: Also to convince my electrical engineer friend he can lobotomize lisp and make it behave like c
2016-07-13T07:35:20Z Zhivago: So you'd get haskell users to migrate from haskell to lisphell?
2016-07-13T07:35:25Z Bike: This is like saying that in order to solve nationalism, you're going to make a world language and it's going to be English
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2016-07-13T07:37:06Z Bike: additionally, a language like haskell has a lot of design in the runtime to make it practical. it's not like it's the same, or even amenable to lisp or whatever, under the hood.
2016-07-13T07:37:22Z Zhivago: It might be, to a lazy lisp.
2016-07-13T07:37:51Z Zhivago: Rather than the one-true-language, I'd suggest investing in decent RPC.
2016-07-13T07:38:12Z Zhivago: It doesn't really matter what language, providing the pieces are small enough.
2016-07-13T07:38:36Z John[Lisbeth]: You could write purely lazy lisp code which gets alot of benefits like how haskell has benefits. And if you designed everythign the right way you could have type checking. But the second you left your safe environment of types you would lose your typechecking
2016-07-13T07:39:01Z Bike: i'm saying types isn't the point.
2016-07-13T07:39:11Z John[Lisbeth]: Typechecking is just one example
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2016-07-13T07:41:41Z Bike: i mean, look. you're not going to have an embedded tiny basically-assembly and haskell in the same runtime. to run the former you need to remove the haskell, so you have a language that's the "restricted" "C-like" that compiles with respect to that runtime, and lo, you are doing the exact same thing as before: writing in a different language with its own compiler.
2016-07-13T07:42:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I'll have to read more about runtimes I suppose
2016-07-13T07:42:51Z Zhivago: Rather than runtimes, I'd clarify the problem you're trying to solve.
2016-07-13T07:43:03Z Zhivago: It may be that the problem is incoherent, or that you are not expressing it coherently.
2016-07-13T07:43:22Z John[Lisbeth]: That is what people always say to me when I ask questions is what problem are you trying to solve, and over time I just keep proving them wrong.
2016-07-13T07:43:27Z Zhivago: Being able to express it coherently should clarify both points.
2016-07-13T07:43:40Z John[Lisbeth]: People have asked me what problem I am trying to solve since I started using linux 7 years ago.
2016-07-13T07:43:49Z Zhivago: How can you prove them wrong when they ask you what problem you are trying to solve?
2016-07-13T07:43:52Z Zhivago: That's just gibberish.
2016-07-13T07:43:54Z Bike: please don't tell us how great you are, we don't care
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2016-07-13T07:44:20Z John[Lisbeth]: All I can say is I can't express to you what problem I'm trying to solve, but that problem lead me to lisp and emacs.
2016-07-13T07:44:30Z John[Lisbeth]: And now I am slowly probing my way into lisp.
2016-07-13T07:44:38Z Zhivago: Then either the problem is incoherent or your expression of it is incoherent.
2016-07-13T07:44:41Z Bike: well, don't expect us to be of much help. we can't provide directions to a target we cannot see.
2016-07-13T07:44:56Z Zhivago: If the the former, then figuring that out will help you. If it is the latter, then figuring that out will help you.
2016-07-13T07:44:58Z John[Lisbeth]: I agree it is difficult to answer my questions.
2016-07-13T07:45:17Z John[Lisbeth]: But again all I can say is I can't express to you the problem I'm trying to solve.
2016-07-13T07:45:20Z Bike: not difficult, impossible
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2016-07-13T07:45:32Z John[Lisbeth]: We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
2016-07-13T07:45:40Z Zhivago: Can you express clearly to yourself the problem that you're trying to solve?
2016-07-13T07:46:09Z John[Lisbeth]: I have stated twice that I can not. And that is just today in this particular conversation. I have been telling people I can not express it for 7 years.
2016-07-13T07:47:37Z Zhivago: Perhaps that is evidence that the problem is itself incoherent ...
2016-07-13T07:47:54Z John[Lisbeth]: Perhaps the problem is just a one problem in an infinite linked list of problems.
2016-07-13T07:48:08Z John[Lisbeth]: And that the second I solve it a new one will arise.
2016-07-13T07:50:57Z John[Lisbeth]: The last problem I was trying to solve seemed to be "what programming language should I use" and it being lisp hinges on lisps ability to be lobotomized.
2016-07-13T07:51:37Z John[Lisbeth]: Otherwise that means that "what programming language should I choose," was the wrong question, and so I have to move back two steps in my linked list of problems.
2016-07-13T07:54:06Z Bike: the point is that if you can't ask your question we have little hope of answering it. right? if you have subquestions specific enough to explain we can help with those.
2016-07-13T07:54:43Z John[Lisbeth]: The keywords you type give me words to search into google, and then the articles I read give my brain better information to solve the problem. It's a method that has worked fine for 7 years.
2016-07-13T07:55:03Z John[Lisbeth]: The disadvantage is that the question answerer is always convinced I haven't learned anything.
2016-07-13T07:56:25Z peey: John: Is the problem this the problem - you want to learn a lot and try to come up with better ways of doing stuff that's currently being done "inefficiently"?
2016-07-13T07:57:56Z John[Lisbeth]: What is the problem with "wanting to learn alot" and "trying to come up with better ways of doing stuff"?
2016-07-13T07:58:52Z peey: No, I didn't mean that it's a problem. Let me rephrase. Is it the case that you want to learn a lot and try to come up with better ways of doing stuff that's currently being done inefficiently?
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2016-07-13T07:59:37Z John[Lisbeth]: Well the current problem I don't know what it is, but the last problem was certainly what programming language should I choose.
2016-07-13T07:59:49Z John[Lisbeth]: I can state that with a fact because knowing the answer I can clearly identify the problem.
2016-07-13T08:00:39Z John[Lisbeth]: But one of the smartest people I know is telling me that it's for certain that my answer is incorrect, and so I have to reconcile what he believes with what I believe.
2016-07-13T08:01:35Z peey: Choose to do what? For projects I used javascript because it's widely supported, for hacking away on problems I use lisp because it's got less gotchas and I can focus more on the task at hand
2016-07-13T08:02:42Z John[Lisbeth]: Lisp could do everything javascript could do if people had choosen lisp for web programming instead of javascript, and this could indeed happen since clojure runs on jvm and soon haskell seems to be able to run on jvm.
2016-07-13T08:03:01Z John[Lisbeth]: Whereas javascript could not tackle many of the problems lisp could tackle, even being widely supported.
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2016-07-13T08:03:17Z John[Lisbeth]: Therefore lisp is a better solution to the problem "what programming language can you choose" than javascript
2016-07-13T08:03:38Z John[Lisbeth]: * in my opinion
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2016-07-13T08:05:48Z peey: Well what you're saying is right. So use lisp, and hack away on your programming project!
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2016-07-13T08:07:28Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't have a "programming project" there is not an implementation problem I am trying to solve.
2016-07-13T08:07:38Z John[Lisbeth]: I am studying the longevity of code, and the unix way.
2016-07-13T08:07:51Z John[Lisbeth]: I've been at it for about 4 years.
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2016-07-13T08:08:45Z peey: Oh. In that case you can actually analyze specific aspects of different languages and publish a research paper and share your knowledge!
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2016-07-13T08:16:55Z John[Lisbeth]: I just appreciate all of your wisdom on here and the wisdom of people in irc who have been doing this stuff for years. I try to treat irc time like a finite resource not to be wasted, so I hope I am not ruffling anyone's feathers.
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2016-07-13T08:45:03Z hjudt: hi! with bordeaux-threads, how can i use a function that requires parameters? make-thread only takes function and &key name. the api doc does not help with this.
2016-07-13T08:45:39Z jackdaniel: hjudt: (bt:make-thread (lambda () (my-function-with-parameters *xxx* 3 :hi 8)))
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2016-07-13T08:47:20Z hjudt: ok, so wrapping it inside another (anonymous) function. thanks.
2016-07-13T08:47:25Z jackdaniel: sure
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2016-07-13T09:26:04Z John[Lisbeth]: what runtime does common lisp use if any?
2016-07-13T09:27:10Z Bike: each implementation has various runtimes depending on backend
2016-07-13T09:27:16Z jdz: i think all implementations link to libc
2016-07-13T09:27:26Z jdz: except the bare-metal ones
2016-07-13T09:27:51Z jdz: oh, right, and then there's ABCL
2016-07-13T09:27:53Z John[Lisbeth]: Let's say standard sbcl.
2016-07-13T09:28:37Z jdz: i think your question is suspicios
2016-07-13T09:28:51Z John[Lisbeth]: I am simply curious about the relationships between runtimes and common lisp, nothing more.
2016-07-13T09:29:02Z jdz: what do you mean by "runtimes"?
2016-07-13T09:29:09Z John[Lisbeth]: A bytecode interpreter.
2016-07-13T09:29:46Z jdz: ECL i think can be shipped as a dynamic library, and it has a bytecode interpreter
2016-07-13T09:29:50Z phadthai: they each have their own in general, as well as a compiler
2016-07-13T09:30:17Z phadthai: yes ECL has both a bytecode interpreter and a compiler via C
2016-07-13T09:30:36Z jdz: SBCL also has brought back bytecode recently
2016-07-13T09:31:11Z jdz: but generally code is compiled straight to machine instructions
2016-07-13T09:31:38Z jdz: try (disassemble 'your-function-name-here)
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2016-07-13T09:32:30Z John[Lisbeth]: that's a really useful function
2016-07-13T09:32:40Z jdz: yes, it's lovely
2016-07-13T09:33:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I assume something similar to disassemble is used in teh compilation of lisp code
2016-07-13T09:33:36Z jdz: o_O
2016-07-13T09:33:54Z jdz: yes, it's called something with an "assemble" in the name (maybe)
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2016-07-13T09:34:04Z salva0: how can I reference in CL the float value infinite?
2016-07-13T09:34:41Z edgar-rft: John[Lisbeth]: CLHS 3.2.1 says: "The term runtime refers to the duration of time that the loader is loading compiled code or compiled code is being executed. At runtime, only the run-time environment is available.", see <http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm>
2016-07-13T09:35:20Z salva0: I see, there are constants as most-positive-double-float defined, but can't find anyone referring to infinite as supported by ieee754
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2016-07-13T09:37:47Z edgar-rft: salva0: IEEE "inf" and "Nan" in Common Lisp are defined as floating-point errors
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2016-07-13T09:39:23Z phadthai: there seem to also be some implementation-specifics like SB-EXT:DOUBLE-FLOAT-NEGATIVE-INFINITY in SBCL... also see the gsll library perhaps (i.e. gsl:+positive-infinity+, gsl:+negative-infinity+)
2016-07-13T09:39:56Z edgar-rft: Some libraries use keywords like :infinity or:not-a-number to represent IEEE "inf" and "NaN", but the built-in math functions cannot handle these as "Inf" or "NaN".
2016-07-13T09:41:09Z phadthai: hmm there would also be ieee-floats library
2016-07-13T09:41:09Z salva0: ok, thanks!
2016-07-13T09:41:12Z phadthai: edgar-rft: makes sense
2016-07-13T09:42:01Z hjudt: another noob question: i can catch single conditions with handler-bind. how i can specify a catch-all condition? that is, if none of the single specified conditions match, how can i make it swallow any other error?
2016-07-13T09:42:44Z edgar-rft: clhs ignore-errors
2016-07-13T09:42:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_ignore.htm
2016-07-13T09:43:12Z edgar-rft: hjudt: this is probably what you're looking for ^^
2016-07-13T09:43:15Z jdz: but never swallow errors!
2016-07-13T09:43:30Z phadthai: there are various facilities, including establishing a custom debugger hook even... also, there is a hierarchy in the condition system so depending on what you catch it'll be more or less specific
2016-07-13T09:43:36Z jdz: IGNORE-ERRORS should only be used in the repl, anyway
2016-07-13T09:43:53Z hjudt: jdz: not "swallow", but there can be various types of network errors when using drakma for example.
2016-07-13T09:44:21Z hjudt: i do not want to specify every single one, just return nil and a generic error message for the user.
2016-07-13T09:44:26Z jdz: hjudt: try looking into drakma error hierarchy -- they all should have a base class
2016-07-13T09:44:34Z jackdaniel: hjudt: also you could catch condition of type T
2016-07-13T09:44:37Z jackdaniel: with handler-case
2016-07-13T09:44:37Z jdz: s/class/base error type
2016-07-13T09:45:15Z hjudt: drakma:http-request signals usocket:ns-host-not-found-error and usocket:connection-refused-error, also sb-int:simple-stream-error.
2016-07-13T09:45:29Z hjudt: and there may be others which i do not expect but can treat the same way
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2016-07-13T09:46:39Z jackdaniel: hjudt: (handler-case (/ 0 0) (ns-host-not-found-error (cond) 'bah) (t (cond) 'ignored-condition))
2016-07-13T09:46:51Z hjudt: jdz: thanks for the hint
2016-07-13T09:47:02Z jdz: well, if your application is supposed to give up and exit with whatever error message, then just use T as the error type
2016-07-13T09:48:07Z jdz: but, for instance, in case of host not found you might add a restart to change the host name/address
2016-07-13T09:48:28Z hjudt: jdz: no, the ns-host-not-found and connection-refused errors are something that can occur more often and need special treatment, but the other errors may really be "unexpected"
2016-07-13T09:49:20Z jdz: the rule #1 of error handling: handle only the errors you can deal with
2016-07-13T09:49:28Z hjudt: ns-host-not-found might be because the host does not exist yet, but will be set-up soon
2016-07-13T09:49:46Z jdz: which means you may only use catch-all handler at the top-level of your application (e.g., entry point)
2016-07-13T09:50:19Z hjudt: the treatment of these errors is the same, but for some i want to give the user a better explanation why something failed.
2016-07-13T09:50:34Z jdz: yes, good idea
2016-07-13T09:50:38Z hjudt: (i am gathering host information)
2016-07-13T09:51:44Z hjudt: that is why i want to specify some errors but also need a catch-all case
2016-07-13T09:52:57Z hjudt: edgar-rft: thanks for ignore-errors too, i will remember this. it will be useful some time...
2016-07-13T09:53:13Z jdz: well
2016-07-13T09:53:15Z jdz: clhs 9.1
2016-07-13T09:53:16Z specbot: Condition System Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_a.htm
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2016-07-13T09:53:40Z jdz: hjudt: IGNORE-ERRORS will bite you in the ass more than it will help
2016-07-13T09:54:33Z jdz: just forget it's there
2016-07-13T09:54:39Z jdz: thank me later :)
2016-07-13T09:54:53Z hjudt: i believe the handler-case solution will do very fine for my purpose
2016-07-13T09:54:59Z hjudt: btw: have i understood correctly that drakma cannot deal with read timeouts on sbcl? that is, it might hang indefinitely?
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2016-07-13T09:55:29Z hjudt: or is this only a problem of an older version of drakma?
2016-07-13T09:58:19Z hjudt: because if it is, i haven't been able to reproduce it yet
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2016-07-13T09:58:38Z jdz: reproduce what? a read timeout?
2016-07-13T09:59:28Z jdz: documentation says drakma supports timeouts on SBCL
2016-07-13T09:59:51Z jdz: oh wait -- is it just a connection timeout?
2016-07-13T10:00:23Z hjudt: :connection-timeout 20 does work
2016-07-13T10:00:27Z jdz: right, there's also read-timeout and write-timeout
2016-07-13T10:00:54Z jdz: which are supported in LispWorks only apparently
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2016-07-13T10:01:36Z hjudt: yes, so i will have to look for another solution (wookie?) or a way to stop the threads.
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2016-07-13T10:02:39Z hjudt: i believe sbcl does have a nice threads api but i started with bordeaux-threads.
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2016-07-13T10:04:31Z hjudt: or maybe use bordeaux:destroy-thread even if advised not to use it in user code
2016-07-13T10:05:09Z hjudt: but that does only kill the bordeaux thread, not the drakma?
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2016-07-13T10:08:08Z p_l: it should kill the thread
2016-07-13T10:08:11Z jdz: does drakma create its own threads?
2016-07-13T10:08:26Z H4ns: jdz: no
2016-07-13T10:08:28Z hjudt: jdz: probably not
2016-07-13T10:08:34Z hjudt: so it should work
2016-07-13T10:08:57Z hjudt: sb-thread:list-all-threads will help me here with debugging
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2016-07-13T10:09:12Z p_l: also, considering that b-t is just interface to implementation's thread support, it shouldn't matter...
2016-07-13T10:09:15Z jdz: slime can list threads, too
2016-07-13T10:09:55Z H4ns: drakma can work with a socket that was opened elsewhere, so if you open the socket, set the timeouts using sbcl specific functions and then pass it to drakma, things should work well.
2016-07-13T10:09:57Z hjudt: since i need to run the queries in threads anyway, killing threads after a timeout will be a viable solution
2016-07-13T10:10:09Z jdz: the function is named slime-list-threads (very sneaky)
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2016-07-13T10:10:35Z H4ns: killing threads is never a good idea because you could kill them while they hold locks that you'll then never be able to recover.
2016-07-13T10:10:51Z jdz: hjudt: you sure do not want to have multiple threads use a single drakma connection simultaneously, right?
2016-07-13T10:10:58Z H4ns: remember that threads are not processes. there is no resource management associated with threads.
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2016-07-13T10:12:44Z hjudt: H4ns: i will look into your socket timeout proposal
2016-07-13T10:13:08Z hjudt: at the moment, i am not using any locks but who knows when i need to
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2016-07-13T10:13:49Z hjudt: jdz: no, each thread makes a new drakma connection
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2016-07-13T10:15:15Z hjudt: there are only simple queries to various servers collecting information. i just don't want to do it in serial but in parallel. one server 5 seconds, but many servers (many * 5 seconds) ;-)
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2016-07-13T10:18:55Z wywedanse: so where would the CLIM terminal be?
2016-07-13T10:19:04Z wywedanse: source?
2016-07-13T10:20:40Z John[Lisbeth]: wywedanse: The greatest lisp terminal you can get is emacs
2016-07-13T10:20:47Z John[Lisbeth]: It's tough to learn emacs but very worth it
2016-07-13T10:21:13Z wywedanse: c'mon, something simpler at the beginning
2016-07-13T10:21:35Z John[Lisbeth]: Well what we can try to do is make you a custom emacs that takes you straight into slime, which is the lisp terminal more or less
2016-07-13T10:21:42Z John[Lisbeth]: and then you won't have to think about emacs when you are using it
2016-07-13T10:21:51Z John[Lisbeth]: it would be just like having a lisp terminal like you wanted
2016-07-13T10:21:58Z hjudt: jdz: but i can reuse connections because i actually have to send two requests to each server (the second built with information from the first).
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2016-07-13T10:22:34Z jdz: hjudt: sure, drakma supports that
2016-07-13T10:23:01Z wywedanse: John[Lisbeth]: I can't have the link then?
2016-07-13T10:23:20Z wywedanse: I am beggin
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2016-07-13T10:27:04Z John[Lisbeth]: wywedanse: hold on it will take me a little bit to make one
2016-07-13T10:27:17Z John[Lisbeth]: wywedanse: what operating system are you using?
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2016-07-13T10:31:33Z H4ns: hjudt: you have to consider that something that is called by drakma may acquire locks
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2016-07-13T10:31:42Z H4ns: hjudt: killing threads is never a safe operation.
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2016-07-13T10:38:33Z rel-s: SBCL vs. Clozure - any preferences?
2016-07-13T10:38:54Z jdz: both!
2016-07-13T10:39:12Z jdz: seriously, they're both fine implementations
2016-07-13T10:39:45Z rel-s: of course, but do you have any preference? and why, if you do?
2016-07-13T10:40:27Z John[Lisbeth]: If I were to choose, SBCL has more support, so I would only choose clozure if it had features I wanted which weren't offered in SBCL.
2016-07-13T10:41:22Z jdz: well, in my experience CCL compiled code faster, but SBCL compiled into faster code.  i've heard SBCL's compilation speed has increased a lot.  my other experience is that CCL compiles into smaller code, and the image itself is smaller than SBCL's on startup.
2016-07-13T10:41:56Z jdz: but the real difference is that while developing i tend to switch between them (if possible) because they reveal portability problems
2016-07-13T10:42:03Z jackdaniel: rel-s: if you need threads on armv7 (32 bit) then CCL is your best pick
2016-07-13T10:42:12Z jdz: and yes, SBCL tends to have better slime support
2016-07-13T10:42:16Z John[Lisbeth]: Compilation speed isn't a real big deal unless you want JIT compiling, but that's just my opinion.
2016-07-13T10:42:21Z p_l: John[Lisbeth]: IIRC Clozure is also stabler (or used to be) on win32
2016-07-13T10:42:32Z John[Lisbeth]: There is a commonlisp.net
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2016-07-13T10:42:53Z p_l: John[Lisbeth]: interestingly, compilation speed was AFAIK why ITA started using CCL on web interface component
2016-07-13T10:43:29Z p_l: I'd probably also stick to CCL in case of OSX
2016-07-13T10:43:30Z H4ns: it made a difference in the order of one hour vs fifteen minutes compiling qres, and that was very significant back then.
2016-07-13T10:43:54Z p_l: H4ns: that's pretty significant
2016-07-13T10:45:05Z H4ns: also, clozure has deadlines on i/o operations, solving timeout issues when talking to sockets very well (i think)
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2016-07-13T10:46:02Z H4ns: i must admit that i implemented much of that :)
2016-07-13T10:47:07Z rel-s: what about slime interaction? I'm currently using sbcl, would it be easy to switch between it and ccl?
2016-07-13T10:47:26Z p_l: rel-s: in my experience it was pretty easy
2016-07-13T10:47:45Z rel-s: p_l: thanks!
2016-07-13T10:47:47Z H4ns: i never had any problems using ccl with slime, but i'm not using a lot of slime's more advanced features anyway
2016-07-13T10:48:12Z p_l: some extras that are very implementation dependant might not work, but generally SBCL and CCL are in the top of support
2016-07-13T10:48:35Z jdz: rel-s: it's easy to use one or the other if you have them installed, so just go on and see which one works better for you i say
2016-07-13T10:48:44Z p_l: now, Symbolics CL which is what I've been mainly meddling with recently... now that would be "fun" with swank ;)
2016-07-13T10:50:33Z p_l: ... just tried C-u M-x slime <RET> $path_to_ccl <RET>
2016-07-13T10:50:43Z p_l: got SLIME prompt in the time it takes SBCL to load core -_-
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2016-07-13T10:53:33Z hjudt: H4ns: i will try to do it with sockets, it sounds sane and less hackish. better invest time in that now than worry about it later.
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2016-07-13T10:57:23Z hjudt: according to the docs, the drakma read-timeout does not come into effect when reusing streams btw, so i would need to deal with this anyway.
2016-07-13T10:57:43Z hjudt: (that is, if i used lispworks)
2016-07-13T10:58:11Z H4ns: hjudt: sure - if drakma does not open the stream, it also sets no timeouts.
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2016-07-13T10:58:21Z therik: morning ;)
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2016-07-13T11:50:39Z pillton: I'm reading the planet.lisp.org blog post on the For macro. Why is "full-blown code-walking" understandably frowned upon?
2016-07-13T11:51:08Z Grue``: cause it's hard?
2016-07-13T11:51:15Z moore33: Cuz it's a pain in the ass to get right.
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2016-07-13T12:08:20Z loke`: pillton: It can ony be done reliably when you have implementation support. For example, SBCL has a code walking library. But there is nothing platform-independent, so you're always going to stumble into edge-cases unless you target a specific implementation only.
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2016-07-13T12:11:54Z pillton: e.g. macros which invoke macroexpand with a non-nil environment.
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2016-07-13T12:37:51Z alejandrozf: hi! sbcl.org is down?!?!?
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2016-07-13T12:39:56Z loke`: Yes.
2016-07-13T12:39:59Z loke`: ksa                       [20:13]
2016-07-13T12:40:00Z loke`: <loke> hemtam: Woah. Det maste ha varit hur dyrt som helst.             [20:14]
2016-07-13T12:40:00Z loke`: <hemtam> 1020 SEK, det var iaf dyrare än inne
2016-07-13T12:40:01Z loke`: Oops
2016-07-13T12:40:08Z loke`: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.sbcl.org
2016-07-13T12:41:44Z alejandrozf: :(
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2016-07-13T12:47:18Z Grue``: alejandrozf: you can download here http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/sbcl/1.3.7/
2016-07-13T12:49:11Z alejandrozf: thx Grue`` but I'm concerned with the reason of official site down, its only today or ...?
2016-07-13T12:50:02Z loke`: alejandrozf: Probaly just today. I was on the site a few days ago.
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2016-07-13T12:50:37Z alejandrozf: loke`, ohh perfect thx
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2016-07-13T12:56:31Z H4ns: alejandrozf: it is www.sbcl.org, not sbcl.org
2016-07-13T12:57:05Z H4ns: ah, no, sorry, forget about it.
2016-07-13T12:57:07Z fe[nl]ix: sbcl.org redirects to the former
2016-07-13T12:57:15Z loke`: Helo fenlix
2016-07-13T12:57:23Z H4ns: just recognized that.  it used to be like i said
2016-07-13T12:57:39Z fe[nl]ix: hi loke`
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2016-07-13T13:03:21Z hjudt: H4ns: when using usocket:socket-connect like drakma, i assume i need to set :element-type 'octet, because otherwise i get an error that a matching method cannot be found. however, i get an error that octet is unknown. where can i find the definition of octet?
2016-07-13T13:04:28Z H4ns: hjudt: i'm guessing that it is coming from flexi-streams, but i'd use '(unsigned-byte 8) anyway
2016-07-13T13:05:56Z H4ns: hjudt: you could find out yourself:  go into the drakma package in your repl (in-package :drakma), type 'octet and M-.
2016-07-13T13:06:01Z loke`: H4ns: alexandria also defines it, but yes. (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) is the best way to go.
2016-07-13T13:06:14Z hjudt: hm. ok, that seems to work but does not solve my problem: There is no applicable method for the generic function #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION (COMMON-LISP:SETF FLEXI-STREAMS:FLEXI-STREAM-ELEMENT-TYPE) (2)> when called with arguments (CHARACTER #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "socket...
2016-07-13T13:06:21Z H4ns: hjudt: you'll end up in flexi-stream's mapping.lisp
2016-07-13T13:06:42Z hjudt: so i guess it does not matter if i find out what octet is
2016-07-13T13:06:43Z H4ns: hjudt: you'll have to wrap the socket in a flexi-stream, if i'm not totally mistaken.  let me look.
2016-07-13T13:07:17Z H4ns: hjudt: just let me know if you no longer want support.
2016-07-13T13:07:30Z hjudt: no, that's great. please help!
2016-07-13T13:07:46Z hjudt: drakma uses usocket in request.lisp
2016-07-13T13:07:51Z hjudt: that is where i looked
2016-07-13T13:09:19Z H4ns: hjudt: right.  so an fd-stream won't do.  i think the best way is to use usocket:socket-connect to establish the connection, then set the timeout using usocket:socket to access the underlying fd-stream
2016-07-13T13:09:29Z hjudt: but you may be right, drakma docs talk about flexi-streams
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2016-07-13T13:09:58Z H4ns: hjudt: i've not looked at the code for a while, so i need to look things up in the source.
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2016-07-13T13:10:49Z hjudt: i will simply try it, need to read flexi-streams doc first. thanks.
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2016-07-13T13:11:32Z hjudt: and you were right, it is flexi-streams that defines octet
2016-07-13T13:11:50Z hjudt: so i can simply use that
2016-07-13T13:11:54Z H4ns: hjudt: remember that if drakma's docs and source talk about "socket", an usocket is really meant.  also take the docstring lightly: "STREAM MUST be a stream returned by a previous invocation of HTTP-REQUEST"
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2016-07-13T13:12:37Z hjudt: so i cannot create my own stream from a socket?
2016-07-13T13:12:44Z hjudt: s/create/use/
2016-07-13T13:12:53Z H4ns: hjudt: you can, but you need to be careful to create the right type of stream.
2016-07-13T13:12:57Z loke`: hjudt: Yes you can.
2016-07-13T13:13:09Z hjudt: ok that's fine then
2016-07-13T13:13:28Z loke`: hjudt: The socket is a stream, but if you need to change its properties you need to wrap it in a flexi-stream
2016-07-13T13:13:42Z H4ns: hjudt: i would look at the sixth return value of a drakma:http-request invocation on the repl to see what type of stream it returns when you call it with :close nil
2016-07-13T13:14:08Z H4ns gladly admits that this is not an "API" or something.  it should be easier to get timeouts.
2016-07-13T13:14:16Z hjudt: good idea
2016-07-13T13:15:34Z H4ns: instead of forcing the user to go through this procedure, it might be better to provide a after-connect-hook keyword argument that gets called after the socket has been opened by drakma and that can be used to do the timeout magic.
2016-07-13T13:16:16Z hjudt: i wonder a bit about that timeout stuff though. drakma supports :timeout meaning connection timeout, but it then uses usocket :timeout which are read timeouts. but maybe that is a misunderstanding or i do not fully understand it.
2016-07-13T13:16:34Z loke`: H4ns: That would be mighty helpfun. I have needed that.
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2016-07-13T13:16:57Z H4ns: any takers for the implementation?  i'd gladly review a PR
2016-07-13T13:17:26Z H4ns: hjudt: timeouts are tricky business, and i think one of the problems is that usocket does not have a good overall model for timeouts.
2016-07-13T13:17:26Z loke`: I'd be happy to do it next time I need it.
2016-07-13T13:18:51Z hjudt: yes, nevertheless i guess it will work to circumvent drakma timeouts and only react to usocket read timeouts.
2016-07-13T13:19:07Z H4ns: drakma has no timeouts on sbcl anyway
2016-07-13T13:19:51Z hjudt: according to the docs it has? at least connection timeouts
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2016-07-13T13:21:21Z H4ns: oh, interesting.  was it myself who added that? :)
2016-07-13T13:22:29Z hjudt: request.lisp, line 227: #+(or abcl clisp lispworks mcl openmcl sbcl) (connection-timeout 20)
2016-07-13T13:22:57Z H4ns: i just saw that, and it seems to be implemented properly for sbcl.
2016-07-13T13:23:04Z H4ns: for some value of properly
2016-07-13T13:23:36Z hjudt: it uses usocket:socket-connect :timeout
2016-07-13T13:23:55Z hjudt: when setting the creating the http stream
2016-07-13T13:25:11Z H4ns: that is used to put an upper bound to socket-connect, it seems.  but anyway, given that all this is pretty shaky territory, i'd advise you to use M-. and M-, a lot to figure out what is implemented how.
2016-07-13T13:26:37Z hjudt: thanks for the advice
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2016-07-13T13:44:44Z hjudt: H4ns: for a start: http://pastebin.com/kT7998t2
2016-07-13T13:45:28Z H4ns: looks good on the first sight.  does it work?
2016-07-13T13:46:35Z hjudt: at least i get back a proper response with content. i will use this and see if there are any problems, but so far it looks pretty good. should work, as i have simply "reverse-engineered" drakma according to your instructions.
2016-07-13T13:47:17Z hjudt: do you have any idea why it uses latin-1 instead of utf-8 for the flexi-stream?
2016-07-13T13:47:36Z loke`: hjudt: Because you didn't specify the encoding?
2016-07-13T13:47:53Z loke`: hjudt: t should default to your platform encoding htough, so perhaps you are usng latin-1?
2016-07-13T13:48:02Z H4ns: headers are always read as latin-1
2016-07-13T13:48:07Z hjudt: loke`: no, it _is_ specified to that value. look at the code.
2016-07-13T13:48:34Z H4ns: drakma will switch the encoding for the body if needed.  without having looked at the code, i would suggest to stick with latin-1.
2016-07-13T13:48:36Z hjudt: H4ns: this clarifies it. i guess there is some spec for this.
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2016-07-13T13:48:50Z H4ns: there is, it is part of how http works.
2016-07-13T13:49:07Z H4ns: also, it is part of why the doc specifies that the stream must be one that drakma returned itself
2016-07-13T13:49:10Z hjudt: i get content-type text/plain;charset=utf-8 in the response
2016-07-13T13:50:02Z hjudt: so that seems to be ok
2016-07-13T13:50:07Z H4ns: yeah.  you should be all set.  if you feel that you need to look at the source, check how drakma changes the encoding of the socket stream while processing the request.
2016-07-13T13:50:50Z hjudt: that is why it uses flexi streams, right? to change the encoding on the fly?
2016-07-13T13:51:25Z H4ns: correct.  it also needs to process binary data, and flexi-streams is a layer over binary streams that allows to switch between character and binary mode dynamically.
2016-07-13T13:51:33Z hjudt: pretty neat
2016-07-13T13:51:55Z H4ns: some lisp implementations have native bivalent streams, but flexi-streams is the portable solution.  it also has better error reporting than many native implementations of bivalent streams.
2016-07-13T13:52:14Z H4ns: at the expense of being generally slower, of course :)
2016-07-13T13:52:51Z hjudt: machines become faster, it is just the software that becomes slower ;-)
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2016-07-13T13:53:41Z hjudt: now i will see how this works in practice. thanks for your help so far.
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2016-07-13T14:32:24Z p_l: Was it standardised (even if in the form of a library) how to make streams that return/receive any kind of lisp object?
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2016-07-13T14:33:09Z p_l: Dealing with Symbolics token-stream and the like recently, and I'd like to port the code to plain CL
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2016-07-13T15:40:17Z loke`: p_l: No, there is no such standard to my knowledge.
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2016-07-13T16:05:45Z porky11: is there some lib for socks-proxy?
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2016-07-13T16:11:33Z p_l: loke`: pity - I have used different element-type in streams previously, and the symbolics code looked quite nice (though obviously Flavors instead of CLOS)
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2016-07-13T16:12:40Z loke`: p_l: I' using Conspack to encode objects in streams.
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2016-07-13T16:15:52Z p_l: loke`: in this case, I was hoping for general interface that would make porting certain Genera code easier
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2016-07-13T16:16:13Z p_l: loke`: part of my grand plan for ELS'17
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2016-07-13T16:16:36Z loke`: Has it been decided where ELS will be held next year?
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2016-07-13T16:21:48Z moore33: p_l: We did some stuff like that in McClim's input editing streams. Clim2 might have something similar to reuse.
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2016-07-13T16:30:57Z rme: loke`: I believe that it ELS 2017 is planned to be held in Brussels.
2016-07-13T16:31:15Z p_l: Examples of symbolics extended streams - byte-stream with mark (denotes message boundaries), token streams, transacted token streams, etc
2016-07-13T16:32:00Z p_l: In a way, it's OSI-style networking vs. "always deal with byte stream from scratch" of C
2016-07-13T16:32:11Z p_l: Tapes are implemented similarly
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2016-07-13T16:35:37Z loke`: rme: Thanks. I
2016-07-13T16:35:42Z loke`: I'll try to make it there.
2016-07-13T16:35:50Z loke`: Long flight, but whatever :-)
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2016-07-13T16:37:39Z rme: Hours of misery in an airplane, but you'll be able to get good Belgian frites.
2016-07-13T16:38:02Z rme: And talk about Lisp, too, of course.
2016-07-13T16:40:02Z loke`: rme: Yes. Like 14 hours.
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2016-07-13T16:40:47Z loke`: I have to make that very flight tomorrow, as I'm in Paris now and heading bac home tomorrow.
2016-07-13T16:41:35Z rme: That's rough.  Bon courage, mon vieux.
2016-07-13T16:41:41Z loke`: Thanks :-)
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2016-07-13T18:07:59Z rpg: should I be surprised that Meta-. is not working in SLIME + ECL?
2016-07-13T18:08:48Z rpg: I get error "Too few arguments supplied to a macro or destructuring-bind form
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2016-07-13T18:09:53Z jackdaniel: you should, M-. works fine for me
2016-07-13T18:10:20Z rpg: jackdaniel: is there any chance this is because I'm still using ECL 15 (on Mac)?
2016-07-13T18:11:24Z jackdaniel: nope, rather not
2016-07-13T18:11:57Z rpg: jackdaniel: OK. I just updated from git.  I'll retest and check in with you if it still fails. Thanks!
2016-07-13T18:11:58Z jackdaniel: maybe your slime and swank are not in sync?
2016-07-13T18:12:03Z jackdaniel: sure
2016-07-13T18:12:45Z jackdaniel is afk
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2016-07-13T21:15:13Z taro9: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-07-13T23:11:53Z rumbler31: greetings #lisp
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2016-07-13T23:12:17Z rumbler31: I have a need that I am pretty sure requires a macro
2016-07-13T23:13:32Z rumbler31: trying to write something that takes a list of fields and types, and creates a class and a reader/writer that constructs a class from reading from a stream, does't the right thing regarding writing the class to the stream
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2016-07-13T23:14:35Z rumbler31: i imagine this idea isn't new
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2016-07-13T23:16:39Z rumbler31: creating the defclass form seems pretty straightforward, I loop through the argument list and create slot forms
2016-07-13T23:17:07Z rumbler31: and then append the defclass form and the slot forms.
2016-07-13T23:19:28Z rumbler31: with a stream reader function, I have to loop through the arg list and create read-byte forms, but the result list has to be put inside a let form
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2016-07-13T23:21:46Z rumbler31: I'm new at writing macros, so some of what i'm doing feels a little inelegant.  for instance, I know that a macro call yields only 1 form, so I have to put the defclass resulting form and the reader/writer forms inside a progn, but when I macroexpand a test form, I only see the last form in the progn
2016-07-13T23:22:16Z Bike: paste your code?
2016-07-13T23:22:34Z rumbler31: little things i'm trying to figure out are like, how to create things like :name when the name part has to be evaluated
2016-07-13T23:23:55Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320404
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2016-07-13T23:24:49Z Bike: ah, see, you need to expand into a progn, you know?
2016-07-13T23:25:10Z Bike: so it'll be like `(progn (defclass ,name () ,slots) (defun bla bla bla))
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2016-07-13T23:26:18Z Bike: and you can use ,@. so it's (defun binary-reader (stream) (let ((obj (make-instance ',name))) ,@stream-reader-list obj)
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2016-07-13T23:28:53Z rumbler31: oops got bounced
2016-07-13T23:29:06Z rumbler31: i figured a handy thing like that existed
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2016-07-13T23:29:58Z rumbler31: how can I create something like name-stream-reader where name is evalutated
2016-07-13T23:30:02Z rumbler31: or similar, :name
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2016-07-13T23:32:19Z Bike: you can build the name as a string, and then use INTERN or FIND-SYMBOL.
2016-07-13T23:33:29Z rumbler31: the string part I got, but I guess I'd have to do something like (let newsymbol (intern (stringstuff with name))) then use ,newsymbol
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2016-07-13T23:34:31Z rumbler31: that was supposed to be a question, sorry.  is that what you're talking about?
2016-07-13T23:36:07Z Bike: yeah, something like that.
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2016-07-13T23:37:04Z Bike: though, nowadays it's considered a bit bad form to make symbols in a macro like that. you can just have the user specify the names, like defclass does.
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2016-07-13T23:38:22Z pillton: I'd also expect make-binary-class to be a function.
2016-07-13T23:38:49Z pillton: Perhaps define-binary-class.
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2016-07-13T23:41:42Z rumbler31: well right now what i'm trying to do is end up with a slot form that looks like (arg1 :initarg :arg1 :accessor arg1).  I need to somehow end up with :arg1 given that arg1 is supplied in the params-list to the macro
2016-07-13T23:42:21Z rumbler31: similarly, if I want to end up with multiple of these classes, I can either make the reader/writer a method, or just name it newclass-stream-reader/writer
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2016-07-13T23:42:53Z rumbler31: pillton: why do you say that?
2016-07-13T23:42:59Z Bike: oh, that's easier. (intern symbol :keyword) should work.
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2016-07-13T23:51:20Z bullets: um... I don't understand force-output
2016-07-13T23:51:37Z bullets: seems I need it with sockets. But is there a way to avoid calling force-output every time?
2016-07-13T23:52:23Z bullets: ((format stream "!~%") (force-output)) <- is there a switch that allows me to save myself the (force-output)?
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2016-07-13T23:53:03Z Bike: not in format.
2016-07-13T23:53:53Z bullets: baw :(
2016-07-13T23:54:00Z bullets: I guess a macro would do then
2016-07-13T23:54:15Z pillton: rumbler31: Because 95.65% of the symbols exported from the CL package with names starting with make- are functions.
2016-07-13T23:55:35Z pillton: The remaining 4.35% belongs to make-method.
2016-07-13T23:55:50Z bullets: thanks Bike
2016-07-13T23:59:25Z rpg: I'm pretty sure that a newline should force output in most normal streams
2016-07-13T23:59:45Z rumbler31: pillton: oh you meant call it something else, not make it a function
2016-07-14T00:00:28Z bullets: rpg: doesn't in my case
2016-07-14T00:00:50Z rpg: surprising.  Most streams are line-buffered....
2016-07-14T00:00:56Z pillton: rpg: I don't think so. I have to use force-output a lot to get output in to the slime repl buffer.
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2016-07-14T00:01:24Z rumbler31: i find it to be necessary as well
2016-07-14T00:01:26Z pillton runs SBCL without threads.
2016-07-14T00:02:22Z pillton: rumbler31: Yeah.
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2016-07-14T00:44:22Z pillton: Does anyone know if Attila Lendvai is on IRC?
2016-07-14T00:46:28Z mordocai: pillton: last seen 9 hours ago as attila_lendvai
2016-07-14T00:47:01Z mordocai: pillton: Found out via googling their name + irc, seing a nick of attila_lendvai and doing /msg nickserv info attila_lendvai
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2016-07-14T00:49:46Z pillton: mordocai: Thanks.
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2016-07-14T00:58:02Z rumbler31: !seen Bike
2016-07-14T00:59:39Z rumbler31: Bike:  I could use your help again.  I have a question
2016-07-14T01:00:23Z rumbler31: nm, i figured it out
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2016-07-14T01:01:50Z rumbler31: this seems to do what i want for now
2016-07-14T01:01:51Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320404#3
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2016-07-14T01:17:57Z Bike: rumbler31: pillton was right, by the way, make- is conventionally a function
2016-07-14T01:19:10Z rumbler31: is there any reason why the associated stream reader/writer operations shouldn't be functions, intead of macroo?
2016-07-14T01:20:19Z rumbler31: i'm tired.  *macros?
2016-07-14T01:20:26Z rumbler31: *methods?
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2016-07-14T01:27:42Z Bike: what, you mean like binary-reader here?
2016-07-14T01:33:29Z rumbler31: yes
2016-07-14T01:33:51Z rumbler31: i was thinking it would end up being named something like test-binary-reader and test-binary-writer
2016-07-14T01:33:52Z rumbler31: or
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2016-07-14T01:34:07Z rumbler31: it could be methods on the new type
2016-07-14T01:34:38Z rumbler31: actually that doesn't make sense, because for reader i won't have an instance of the class yet.  for writer, maybe a method
2016-07-14T01:34:42Z rocx: ey. think i could try figuring out why i'm getting an unbound variable error on this function? https://p.iotek.org/ld7.lisp
2016-07-14T01:34:44Z Bike: i mean, you already have it as a function? i don't understand.
2016-07-14T01:35:29Z rumbler31: i don't know, I'm probably thinking about it too hard
2016-07-14T01:35:33Z Bike: rocx: i get no such error locally
2016-07-14T01:35:49Z rocx: Bike: SBCL?
2016-07-14T01:35:56Z Bike: yes
2016-07-14T01:36:16Z rocx: what the heck? then it seems to be having this issue only in slime.
2016-07-14T01:36:24Z Bike: i am using slime.
2016-07-14T01:36:38Z Bike: maybe you had a typo?
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2016-07-14T01:38:37Z rocx: don't know how i would since that's the exact same thing i pasted into what became that link.
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2016-07-14T01:41:04Z rocx: the problem just happens when I try to evaluate that expression.
2016-07-14T01:41:27Z jason_m: rocx: what command are you using to do that?
2016-07-14T01:41:40Z rocx: C-c C-e at the end of the function in a buffer.
2016-07-14T01:42:03Z rocx: thought those got overridden by the slime versions since slime traces come up in their own when i do that.
2016-07-14T01:42:27Z Bike: try it in the repl.
2016-07-14T01:42:46Z rocx: what the-
2016-07-14T01:43:21Z jason_m: and what happens if you compile it, C-c C-c ?
2016-07-14T01:44:08Z rocx: no hitch when i paste it into the REPL.
2016-07-14T01:44:26Z rocx: jason_m: when compiling, it said completed and three notes.
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2016-07-14T01:45:41Z jason_m: rocx: one of them probably a redefinition warning? anything interesting in the other two notes?
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2016-07-14T01:46:10Z rocx: oh yeah, definitely a redefinition warning. i tend to ignore those. but it says "note: deleting unreachable code".
2016-07-14T01:46:17Z rocx: on some (string) calls.
2016-07-14T01:48:38Z jason_m: rocx: you might have a typo, you are not comparing the length of elt-symb to anything.  that i believe causes your (let* ...) to never be evaluated
2016-07-14T01:48:49Z jason_m: that's probably not your original problem, but something to take a look at
2016-07-14T01:49:19Z rocx: the reason that part's there is to make the function return nil if elt-name or elt-symb is less than two characters long.
2016-07-14T01:49:40Z rocx: then in the else part, that's where the let* happens. i'll check that out.
2016-07-14T01:49:43Z jason_m: then you probably need to add another 2 in there
2016-07-14T01:49:55Z jason_m: because as it stands, your or will always be true
2016-07-14T01:50:07Z rocx: okay yeah no issue getting rid of that if.
2016-07-14T01:50:15Z rocx: i take that back.
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2016-07-14T01:51:16Z jason_m: the second form in your or, (< (length elt-symb)) should probably be (< (length elt-symb) 2)
2016-07-14T01:51:49Z rocx: oh cripes i forgot what to compare it to.
2016-07-14T01:51:50Z jason_m: (< x) is allowed and evaluates to true.  so the compiler is realizing that and determining that the entire else branch of your if form is unreachable
2016-07-14T01:51:59Z rocx: you're right.
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2016-07-14T01:53:09Z jason_m: others may opine on style, but when one of your if/else branches is always nil, it may be easier to read if you use a when or unless form
2016-07-14T01:54:03Z rocx: yeah this is quite a mess.
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2016-07-14T01:54:27Z jason_m: as for your original issue, the unbound symbol when evaluating the defun, i don't do much evaluating, i do much more C-c C-c'ing.  But I wonder if something is messed up with packages?
2016-07-14T01:54:56Z rocx: heh. not using packages in CL right now. haven't gotten quicklisp installed yet.
2016-07-14T01:55:27Z Xach: packages are an integral part of CL.
2016-07-14T01:55:30Z Xach: you can't not use them.
2016-07-14T01:55:32Z jason_m: well there is no getting around packages.  but i guess that means you're doing eveything in the cl-user package
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2016-07-14T01:55:53Z rpg: I think the confusion comes from the use of the term "package" for what other languages call "namespace"
2016-07-14T01:56:15Z Xach: quicklisp provides the source code of projects, which are organized into one or more systems. projects almost always define additional packages.
2016-07-14T01:56:16Z rocx: rpg: that's not really the confusing part for me. it's mainly how to be able to work around/with these things.
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2016-07-14T01:56:55Z rpg: packages ARE confusing. There's a short article that explains them reasonably well .... is that the one by Erann Gat, anyone?
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2016-07-14T01:57:48Z rocx: the complete idiot's guide to common lisp pacakges? yeah that's what explained the packages = namespace tidbit. it's the whole interning/uninterning/symbol part that throws me for a loop.
2016-07-14T01:58:01Z rocx: mainly because i'm finally just starting to make use of common lisp.
2016-07-14T02:00:41Z rocx: it'd be kind of nice if there was a successful attempt of consolidating, explaining and documenting common lisp for beginners.
2016-07-14T02:00:42Z rpg: rocx: You probably don't need to worry about interning and uninterning. That's mostly an issue if you are doing symbolic computing.
2016-07-14T02:00:49Z rocx: the CLHS only goes so far.
2016-07-14T02:01:02Z rocx: s/the CLHS/my brain/
2016-07-14T02:01:11Z rpg: rocx: Probably the only thing you need to think about is writing the DEFPACKAGE form.
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2016-07-14T02:03:49Z jason_m: in one of the earlier CL programs i wrote, i used symbols has keys in a hashtable.  i tried to look something up from a function in a different package.  and then i learned some things about symbols and packages :)
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2016-07-14T02:05:45Z rocx: how long have you been doing CL?
2016-07-14T02:07:17Z rpg: rocx: As long as it's been a thing!
2016-07-14T02:07:18Z jasom: rocx packages are mappings from strings to symbols
2016-07-14T02:07:33Z jasom: that's pretty much all there is to packages.
2016-07-14T02:08:16Z rpg: jasom: Packages have other attributes like internal and external symbols
2016-07-14T02:08:28Z rocx: rpg: were you one of those aliens that helped us understand the concept of stacking blocks so the pyramids could be built?
2016-07-14T02:08:28Z jasom: rpg: true
2016-07-14T02:09:11Z jasom: 1984 was when CLtL1 came out, that's probably the best date for the beginning of CL
2016-07-14T02:09:15Z rpg: rocx: Not quite that much of a founder, but I got my Ph. D. in 1991.
2016-07-14T02:09:32Z Xach: the complete idiot's guide to packages is not good.
2016-07-14T02:09:34Z rocx: sheesh. and here i am going for my bachelors now, discovering this lost art.
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2016-07-14T02:09:45Z Xach: the gigamonkeys explanation is good.
2016-07-14T02:09:58Z rpg: Xach: Is that in PCL, or freestanding?
2016-07-14T02:10:06Z Xach: it's a chapter in pcl
2016-07-14T02:10:35Z jasom: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html (though read chapter 4 first)
2016-07-14T02:10:51Z rpg: If you are just getting started, it's quite possible to do a bunch of hacking just in CL-USER. Packages become unavoidable when you start using other people's libraries.
2016-07-14T02:10:55Z Xach: the idiot's guide refers to obsolete package terminology that was deleted after cltl1. and overall treats packages with a "gee, aren't these awful" mentality that I think is harmful.
2016-07-14T02:11:46Z rpg: I had to learn before gigamonkeys' great book, so probably I'm a bad recommender.
2016-07-14T02:11:46Z Xach: you can write an effective mimic of the package system with just a few pages of code, and i did that. i'd love to turn it into a tutorial so you can build good intuition. no time though. :~(
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2016-07-14T02:12:22Z rpg: I do like the idea of scoped packages, but not enough to damn all my code to being non-standard.
2016-07-14T02:12:54Z Xach: i think package-local nicknames will happen
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2016-07-14T02:13:45Z rpg: That's the most important part of it.  I am not as scorching on packages, but I do think that global nicknames was dumb.
2016-07-14T02:14:04Z jasom: I woud rather that readtables included a hook for handling tokens, as that would make package-local nicknames implementable as a library.
2016-07-14T02:15:06Z Xach: i think something that touches fewer internals has a better likelihood of happening
2016-07-14T02:16:09Z jasom: I know, but I don't like the idea of a single-purpose implementation when there's a simple, more general, solution.
2016-07-14T02:16:36Z rpg: jasom: remember that handling tokens is an *extremely* inner-loop thing to do. Might not be a happy thing to make it hookable
2016-07-14T02:16:53Z jasom: and nicknames are not the only issue I've run into when using the interning reader.
2016-07-14T02:17:56Z jasom: rpg: with the exception of libraries that use readtables to implement custom parsers, little performance sensitive code is using the reader at all.  Compilation will dominate over read-time in most implementations.
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2016-07-14T02:21:15Z Xach: it only takes one paying customer with weird needs to change perspectives like that
2016-07-14T02:21:36Z Xach: like one having lots of performance sensitive code where the reader is the bottleneck
2016-07-14T02:23:10Z rpg: I could imagine applications like a theorem-prover (e.g., PVS), where that is a thing.
2016-07-14T02:27:12Z rpg: I still think if you wanted to deviate that far from the standard syntax, you might be better off just writing your own reader.
2016-07-14T02:27:23Z pierpa: Paul Graham chose Clisp over Allegro for his webstore because Clisp was faster at I/O. So obviously for someone speed of READ matters
2016-07-14T02:28:03Z rpg: pierpa: Note that it's possible (or even likely) that he wasn't using READ.
2016-07-14T02:28:22Z pierpa: from what I understand, he was
2016-07-14T02:28:26Z rpg: pierpa: READ can be *extremely* inefficient.  If you know what you are parsing, you are much better off doing it yourself.
2016-07-14T02:28:59Z rpg: I learned the hard way how expensive it can be to delegate parsing to READ, especially if you have large amounts of numerical data.
2016-07-14T02:31:28Z jasom: there's already a per-character overhead, so I would be surprised if a per-token overhead of a single symbol caused problems.  Even if this were the case, you could have a fast-path that uses an open-coded version of the default behavior protected behind a single pointer check
2016-07-14T02:31:46Z jasom: s/single symbol/single function call/
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2016-07-14T02:34:01Z jasom: rpg: again you say "write your own reader" but there's not an efficient way to replace the reader; sure you can set every single character to be a dispatching macro character to your reader, but that is a huge table if you want to support all code-points in a unicode lisp
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2016-07-14T02:34:37Z jasom: ~1GB overhead on sbcl for doing that
2016-07-14T02:34:46Z pierpa: you write a MY-READ function
2016-07-14T02:35:05Z pierpa: the algorithm is in the clhs
2016-07-14T02:35:06Z jasom: pierpa: and then a my-load a my-compile, and modify asdf to hook into all of that?
2016-07-14T02:35:10Z pierpa: is a page of code
2016-07-14T02:35:34Z pierpa: what's the problem?
2016-07-14T02:35:40Z rpg: jasom: I think you write a reader and translate your code to standard CL. At least that's possible.
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2016-07-14T02:36:08Z rpg: Anyway, it's a neat idea, but I don't think it's going to come to pass. But good luck to you; I'd be interested to see if it works out.
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2016-07-14T02:36:32Z rpg: Selling all the implementations on a change to readtables seems like a tall order.  We can't even get named readtables!
2016-07-14T02:36:36Z rpg is now known as rpg[Away]
2016-07-14T02:36:59Z pierpa: we couldn't get unified external-formats :(
2016-07-14T02:37:10Z pierpa: which utterly trivial in comparison
2016-07-14T02:37:14Z pierpa: *which is
2016-07-14T02:37:16Z jasom agrees with rpg and Xach on the difficulty of getting implementations to change stuff.
2016-07-14T02:37:45Z mordocai: When approximately was quicklisp first released to the public? Want to mention it in my presenation. Xach
2016-07-14T02:37:55Z Xach: mordocai: october 2010
2016-07-14T02:38:02Z Xach: mordocai: at ilc in reno
2016-07-14T02:38:09Z Xach: or shortly after
2016-07-14T02:38:14Z mordocai: Thanks!
2016-07-14T02:38:53Z Xach: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2010/10/quicklisp-beta-now-available.html
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2016-07-14T02:40:47Z mordocai: excellent
2016-07-14T02:41:49Z jasom: Pascal Bourguignon wrote a complete reader replacement that supports hooks for tokenization.  I used it to try an idea I had that would be an alternative to package-local nicknames.  It was easy and pleasant to use.  I can't speak to performance though.
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2016-07-14T02:43:25Z jasom: another interesting thing about packages is that it's not possible to create anonymous packages (i.e. without polluting a global namespace).  I think that might be the only object in CL for which that is true, but I'm not sure.
2016-07-14T02:47:16Z pierpa: what would you use an anonymous package for?
2016-07-14T02:49:01Z Zhivago: You wouldn't.
2016-07-14T02:49:14Z Zhivago: But what would make sense is local package visibility.
2016-07-14T02:49:31Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-14T02:49:42Z Zhivago: e.g., from the context of package A, package B means X, but from the context of package D, package B means Y.
2016-07-14T02:50:12Z jasom: pierpa: you could bind *package* to it
2016-07-14T02:50:39Z pierpa: ach, for reading. ok. Good use case.
2016-07-14T02:51:11Z fugue: What's the easiest way to make (A B) into ((A) (B))
2016-07-14T02:51:41Z jasom: I've seen temporary packages used in several places and usually they name it something like foo-temp where foo is the system.
2016-07-14T02:52:02Z Bike: fugue: mapcar #'list
2016-07-14T02:52:31Z jasom: it's not really a big deal, and it's always possible to generate a new package name, and not possible to accidentally make a package with the same name as a preexisting package, but it's just an interesting little wart
2016-07-14T02:52:55Z pierpa: what about gc?
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2016-07-14T02:53:29Z jasom: pierpa: what about it?
2016-07-14T02:53:34Z pierpa: an anonymous package when should be collected?
2016-07-14T02:53:48Z jasom: pierpa: when there are no more references to it
2016-07-14T02:53:50Z pierpa: (if ever)
2016-07-14T02:54:07Z pierpa: the symbols in the package could be referenced
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2016-07-14T02:54:18Z jasom: pierpa: I would assume that in this case a symbol whos home package were an anonymous package would count as a reference
2016-07-14T02:54:35Z jasom: but other symbols visible in the package wouldn't need to count
2016-07-14T02:54:55Z pierpa: the point of packages is that they hold symbols even is nobody references them
2016-07-14T02:55:07Z rocx: okay think i got this function fixed. thanks for pointing out how silly i've done it
2016-07-14T02:55:24Z Bike: as is, packages are always referenced by the global name binding. with anonymous packages, some wouldn't be, so they'd be GCd same as any other object. there's nothing conceptually difficult.
2016-07-14T02:55:36Z mordocai: Is there a handy lisp of "Common lisp in production" somewhere?
2016-07-14T02:55:47Z mordocai: As in active in production now
2016-07-14T02:56:01Z pierpa: ?
2016-07-14T02:56:10Z jasom: mordocai: I think you mean "handy list"?
2016-07-14T02:56:18Z mordocai: Sure do jasom
2016-07-14T02:56:25Z pierpa: ah
2016-07-14T02:56:39Z fugue: Bike: (print result) gives me (A B), (mapcar  #'list result), printed result after, same (A B)
2016-07-14T02:56:43Z fugue: is my syntax correct?
2016-07-14T02:56:55Z Bike: mapcar returns a new list, of co urse
2016-07-14T02:56:56Z mordocai: Only ones I know off the top of my head are grammarly and https://turtl.it/
2016-07-14T02:57:03Z jasom: mordocai: not really; each commercial vendor has a list of customer success stories, and there are some out-of-date cliki pages for some of the non commercial implementations
2016-07-14T02:57:09Z Bike: if you want to change the variable, you would do (setf result (mapcar #'list result))
2016-07-14T02:57:37Z fugue: Bike: of course
2016-07-14T02:57:40Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/success-stories/index.html http://franz.com/success/
2016-07-14T02:57:43Z fugue: that makes sense :)
2016-07-14T02:58:52Z jasom: fugue: if you want to mutate the actual list in-place you can do so with mapl; that's not typically recommended though
2016-07-14T02:59:20Z pierpa: probably he wants MAP-INTO
2016-07-14T02:59:38Z pierpa: clhs map-into
2016-07-14T02:59:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map_in.htm
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2016-07-14T03:00:31Z jasom: mordocai: https://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ <-- this lists people hiring for lisp, which tends to imply they are using it too
2016-07-14T03:01:02Z rme: But note that mapl mustn't modify the cdr-chain of the list.
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2016-07-14T03:01:40Z rocx: doesn't look like many jobs considering the gap between posts.
2016-07-14T03:01:43Z jasom: right, but it's fine for modifying the CARs, though map-into is the correct thing to use here
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2016-07-14T03:02:23Z rme: I just mention it because a difference between how ccl and sbcl do mapl/maplist caused a bug that took me a long time to find.
2016-07-14T03:02:46Z pierpa: interesting
2016-07-14T03:04:09Z mordocai: rocx: There aren't but that's the usual story with less popular languages
2016-07-14T03:04:20Z BRFennPocock: I wasn't sure if I could mention our Co, but yeah, MCNA is apparently hiring on that board :-)
2016-07-14T03:04:38Z rocx: make lisp great again.
2016-07-14T03:04:43Z rocx: ...that isn't clojure.
2016-07-14T03:04:47Z pierpa: we lost the train
2016-07-14T03:06:26Z mordocai: BRFennPocock: Wow, your company isn't messing around with the requirements. 8+ years of experience and a bachelors/masters wanted.
2016-07-14T03:06:47Z BRFennPocock: mordocai:  Although (weird) our job posting only mentions Clojure and fails to mention CL. And the listing I saw for that job said "degree would be nice."
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2016-07-14T03:07:07Z rocx: "swift dev wanted. requires 5 years of experience and needs to have worked at NASA prior to this job."
2016-07-14T03:07:14Z BRFennPocock: It's also been edited by someone who thought "clojure script" was spelled like that.
2016-07-14T03:07:28Z mordocai: Lol yeah. Probably got meddled with by the HR people
2016-07-14T03:08:06Z rme: I worked at NASA, so that's not saying much.
2016-07-14T03:08:10Z BRFennPocock: We only just got one of those. "Talent Manager." I can't help but think that name implies something like "regulator" or "reducer."
2016-07-14T03:08:12Z fugue: I could use some help with this problem: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320412 -- I'm trying to create combinations of 2 separate lists (of their indexes only)
2016-07-14T03:08:16Z fugue: Please.
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2016-07-14T03:09:13Z Bike: didn't beach walk you through it?
2016-07-14T03:09:57Z fugue: He helped with the combinations, which I've made a huge progress. I'm actually at the final point of combining the lists using the permutation
2016-07-14T03:10:06Z fugue: Err combinations*
2016-07-14T03:11:16Z Bike: okay, well, first i would do it just with the individual lists. like, ((a) (b) (c)) and ((r r r) ...).
2016-07-14T03:11:55Z fugue: My first question: is there a way to iterate both lists at the same time? (we can be assured they have the same # of elements)
2016-07-14T03:12:34Z Bike: well, you don't really want to take one element at a time from both, you want to loop over the whole of one list for each iteration of the other.
2016-07-14T03:14:12Z fugue: Thats the thing, its ((A) (B)) and ((C Z) (D Y)) should become ( (A (C)) (A (Z)) (B (D)) (B (Y)))
2016-07-14T03:14:37Z jason_m: fugue: mapcar should do the trick
2016-07-14T03:14:49Z Bike: sure. so just do a nested mapcar or loop.
2016-07-14T03:15:16Z Bike: and reduce the problem first. (a) and (c z).
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2016-07-14T03:18:15Z fugue: since mapcar returns a list, is there a way I can keep appending to one?
2016-07-14T03:18:25Z H4ns: mapcan
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2016-07-14T03:50:56Z fugue: Strange, I have one = (A) two = (B C), I run (mapcar #'list one two) and it returns ( (A B) )
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2016-07-14T03:53:03Z H4ns: fugue: why is that strange?  what would you expect?  did you read the documentation on mapcar?
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2016-07-14T03:58:37Z fugue: Looks like it runs out after the first run
2016-07-14T03:59:08Z fugue: Runs out of elements since there are 1 and 2
2016-07-14T03:59:30Z H4ns: fugue: "run" is not a good verb to use here.  but yes, map calls the function as long as the shortest sequence has elements.
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2016-07-14T05:14:55Z fugue: I've got a list of lists I'm looping through (loop for item in myList do ( ... )) I need to append a symbol 'A to each list (item)
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2016-07-14T05:17:51Z fugue: nconc worked
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2016-07-14T05:49:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-14T09:37:51Z hjudt: H4ns: despite using an own usocket stream for drakma, limiting the read timeout to 10, i still have the problem that the thread hangs for a while when the remote machine is in a problematic state. luckily the thread terminates after a while and does not hang indefinitely, but the timeout is not controllable. do you have any idea what i can do about this, except destroying the thread? i only get a
2016-07-14T09:37:57Z hjudt: "sb-sys:fd-stream for socket host:port" condition.
2016-07-14T09:39:03Z hjudt: maybe there is some way to check the usocket stream without drakma _if_ the problem is with drakma.
2016-07-14T09:39:51Z hjudt: of course, for this special case i could wait until the connection times out and not start any new requests to this host...
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2016-07-14T09:41:39Z H4ns: hjudt: "sb-sys:fd-stream for socket host:port" is not a condition, really.  also, when you say "terminates after a while", what do you mean exactly?
2016-07-14T09:42:40Z H4ns: hjudt: it is possible that drakma does not properly react when a read returns 0 bytes due to the timeout being triggered, but i'm not sure about that and i have no time to debug it myself.  can you do some more research as to what exactly is happening, or supply an isolated test case that demonstrates the problem?
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2016-07-14T09:46:02Z hjudt: it might be difficult to provide a proper test case. i believe the remote server is simply not responding (a java machine with an out-of-memory error problem). the connection might be possible, but nothing is received (i'm not sure about that). i will try to find out though if it is a problem with usocket or drakma, that will bring me one step further.
2016-07-14T09:46:50Z hjudt: the condition is of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-STREAM-ERROR, the message couldn't read from "sb-sys:fd-stream..."
2016-07-14T09:47:31Z H4ns: hjudt: ah, okay, and that condition is not properly aborting the request, or is it?
2016-07-14T09:47:37Z hjudt: the problem is i _have_ to deal with these cases
2016-07-14T09:47:43Z hjudt: it seems so, yes
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2016-07-14T09:48:21Z hjudt: well, it might abort it, but not "in time"
2016-07-14T09:48:30Z jdz: TRACE is a nice facility
2016-07-14T09:48:37Z hjudt: seems like 30 seconds or a minute later
2016-07-14T09:48:44Z H4ns: this is strange, because any unhandled condition would abort http-request
2016-07-14T09:48:54Z H4ns: yeah.  trace.  you may have an unrelated problem.
2016-07-14T09:49:33Z hjudt: i guess the condition happens later
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2016-07-14T10:03:20Z hjudt: the flexi stream is created successfully, the socket stays connected, but trace shows that http-request hangs somewhere. a minute or so later, the socket is closed and the condition is signaled.
2016-07-14T10:04:23Z hjudt: maybe there is another timeout for the stream that i can set
2016-07-14T10:06:11Z hjudt: looks like there is none
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2016-07-14T10:24:45Z hjudt: interestingly, if i create a socket with a timeout and use wait-for-input on that socket, netstat shows the socket does not timeout and stays connected.
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2016-07-14T10:27:38Z hjudt: yet i am still lucky that the stream times out after a while instead of hanging indefinitely. i will have to consider and handle this case in the design of my application, and as a hard issue, finally kill the thread if it is over a certain time limit.
2016-07-14T10:28:13Z hjudt: s/issue/measure/
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2016-07-14T10:55:29Z H4ns: you could also use ccl for its deadline support
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2016-07-14T11:17:14Z scymtym: in sbcl, you can get deadlines for i/o-operations (and some other operations) like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320437 . also, IIRC, 60 seconds is the time SBCL waits for threads to exit when terminating.
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2016-07-14T11:18:03Z H4ns: nice, that should probably work with drakma as well, then.
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2016-07-14T11:19:08Z scymtym: probably, i didn't try it, though
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2016-07-14T11:22:33Z hjudt: scymtym: thanks for this very useful hint, i'll look into it
2016-07-14T11:22:59Z scymtym: hjudt: sure, i hope it works for you
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2016-07-14T11:26:08Z hjudt: yes, from a quick test it does ;-) simply wrapping it around http-request works nicely.
2016-07-14T11:26:47Z H4ns: sounds to me as if it would not be too hard to build this into drakma
2016-07-14T11:27:19Z H4ns: hjudt: so if you'd like to send a pr for that, i'll gladly review and accept it.
2016-07-14T11:28:19Z hjudt: i will try. i need to delve a bit deeper into drakma code for that and also watch out for those compiler instructions.
2016-07-14T11:28:32Z hjudt: hints
2016-07-14T11:29:41Z hjudt: and read up what exactly with-deadline does
2016-07-14T11:30:11Z hjudt: and see if this goes with the semantics of the drakma options
2016-07-14T11:37:47Z sjl: is roswell's 'ros list versions' broken for anyone else? http://paste.stevelosh.com/578777dddefbd40007a9aadc
2016-07-14T11:37:51Z sjl: OS X and homebrew here
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2016-07-14T13:59:20Z dim: stfoy33
2016-07-14T14:00:46Z jdz: recorded!
2016-07-14T14:00:57Z jdz: pls give the username and service as well
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2016-07-14T15:09:49Z p_l: hjudt: have you checked cl-async's drakma port?
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2016-07-14T17:48:48Z drmeister: Should (directory "/**") produce something or signal an error?
2016-07-14T17:49:08Z dim: CCL produce something
2016-07-14T17:49:22Z dim: 20 items
2016-07-14T17:50:02Z drmeister: sbcl produces something.  ECL and Clasp signal an error.
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2016-07-14T17:51:30Z jasom:  drmeister that's not defined by the standard I think
2016-07-14T17:52:28Z jasom: there is no standard for representing physical pathnames as strings
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2016-07-14T17:54:11Z jasom: ";**" is therefore defined
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2016-07-14T17:58:19Z jasom: though it would actually be "**" not ;** as ;** is relative
2016-07-14T18:00:09Z jasom: drmeister: IIRC uiop defines a way for representing a subset of physical pathnames using a unix-like syntax
2016-07-14T18:00:21Z jasom: uiop:parse-unix-namestring or some-such
2016-07-14T18:00:55Z drmeister: The problem on ECL and Clasp was that "/**" treats "**" as the :NAME part of a pathname.
2016-07-14T18:01:05Z drmeister: "/**/" is what I wanted to use.
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2016-07-14T18:04:25Z jasom: also, if you care at all about windows, use only relative pathnames and uiop:merge-pathnames* in favor of cl:merge-pathnames.  See the documentation of uiop:merge-pathnames* for more information.
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2016-07-14T18:13:07Z drmeister: jasom: I'm diagnosing a problem in building quicklisp in clasp - so my questions are a little unfocused at the moment until I figure out what is going on.
2016-07-14T18:13:24Z drmeister: I think the problem is that I have the hostname "SYS" pointing to "/"
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2016-07-14T18:13:43Z drmeister: Does the "SYS" pathname have to be defined in Common Lisp?
2016-07-14T18:13:52Z drmeister: Hostname.
2016-07-14T18:13:56Z drmeister: Not pathname
2016-07-14T18:14:16Z XachX_: drmeister: it is reserved for owlet rations.
2016-07-14T18:14:31Z XachX_: Implementations
2016-07-14T18:15:14Z drmeister: XachX_:   "owlet rations"? Autocorrect gone horribly wrong?
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2016-07-14T18:15:40Z drmeister: Because that's a funny.
2016-07-14T18:17:01Z XachX_: Horribly
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2016-07-14T18:17:59Z drmeister: XachX_: Running clasp without access to a source tree  (probe-file "sys:") --> NIL
2016-07-14T18:18:31Z drmeister: And that's causing quicklisp (or asdf) to search to entire directory hierarchy.
2016-07-14T18:19:07Z drmeister: It looks like I need to set up some reasonable pathname translation for "sys:" to get things to work.    Does that sound right?
2016-07-14T18:23:05Z dim: "sys" is not a defined logical host [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
2016-07-14T18:23:10Z dim: yet Quicklisp works fine here
2016-07-14T18:23:12Z dim: CCL again
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2016-07-14T18:31:16Z jasom: drmeister: looks like you should signal a file-error rather than returning nil
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2016-07-14T18:34:18Z jasom: drmeister: what does (translate-logical-pathname "sys:") return?
2016-07-14T18:35:19Z drmeister: Good point - that's probably it.
2016-07-14T18:35:25Z drmeister: Checking...
2016-07-14T18:36:02Z drmeister: (translate-logical-pathname "sys:") --> #P"/"
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2016-07-14T18:55:56Z jasom: XachX_: I think I already asked you this before, but having automated tests that download and install quicklisp as part of what they do isn't a problem vis-a-vis load on your servers?
2016-07-14T18:56:18Z Xach: jasom: it's a problem in that i have to pay for data transfer.
2016-07-14T18:56:33Z Xach: jasom: the cost is low, but if everyone automated a quicklisp install, it would add up.
2016-07-14T18:56:54Z Xach: jasom: since i use amazon for serving files, load is not an issue, but cost could be in a theoretical future
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2016-07-14T19:08:18Z ywedanse: how to learn this ?
2016-07-14T19:08:25Z ywedanse: what steps? guide or book?
2016-07-14T19:08:29Z ywedanse: thanks
2016-07-14T19:08:38Z jasom: minion: tell ywedanse about pcl
2016-07-14T19:08:38Z minion: ywedanse: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2016-07-14T21:33:15Z jasom: hmm slime-compile-and-load-file appears to be compiling but not loading.  Any idea why?
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2016-07-14T22:01:05Z jasom: For some reason this doesn't load the file, but does compile: (slime-eval '(swank:compile-file-for-emacs "/Users/jmiller/foo.lisp" t))
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2016-07-14T22:01:16Z jasom: wheras C-c C-k with foo.lisp open will load the file
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2016-07-14T22:04:18Z jasom: ah, I found the issue; the loading is more complicated than I thought, and I was overriding slime-compilation-finished
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2016-07-14T22:06:38Z jasom: or rather I was throwing from slime-compilation-finished-hook in order to do a blocking compile.  However, the loading doesn't happen until *after* slime-compilation-finished-hook is called
2016-07-14T22:10:55Z jasom: switching to polling rather than throw/catch fixed the problem.
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2016-07-14T22:39:38Z dim: I use C-c C-l rather than C-c C-k myself
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2016-07-14T22:39:58Z dim: the fasl cache invalidation mechanism has not always been trustworthy for me
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2016-07-14T23:14:32Z trinque: given a function symbol, can I tell which module defines that symbol?
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2016-07-14T23:14:38Z trinque: in common lisp
2016-07-14T23:18:14Z Bike: by "module", you mean what?
2016-07-14T23:18:51Z ben_vulpes: trinque: `symbol-package`?
2016-07-14T23:19:49Z trinque: ohey! and yes!
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2016-07-14T23:21:57Z ben_vulpes: hiya :P
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2016-07-15T00:21:03Z lisp658: how do I get a sublist within a list where the sublist's first element is x?
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2016-07-15T00:24:13Z pillton: (member 2 (list 1 2 3 4)) => (2 3 4)
2016-07-15T00:26:51Z lisp658: I meant suppose a = ((x (a b c)) (y (d e f))). I want to get the second element of the main list's element where x is the 0th element. i.e. I want to get (a b c)
2016-07-15T00:29:29Z pillton: (member 'a '((x (a b c)) (y (d e f))) :key #'caadr) => ((x (a b c)) (y (d e f)))
2016-07-15T00:30:39Z pillton: I would recommend using (loop for sublist on list ...)
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2016-07-15T00:30:54Z jason_m: or (member 'x '((x (a b c)) (y (d e f))) :key #'car) gets the same thing if that's what you want
2016-07-15T00:31:35Z lisp658: both of those expressions return the whole list, I just want to get (a b c)
2016-07-15T00:32:22Z jason_m: (second (find 'x '((x (a b c)) (y (d e f))) :key #'car)) => (A B C)
2016-07-15T00:32:47Z lisp658: jason_m: thanks
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2016-07-15T00:33:13Z pillton is offended.
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2016-07-15T00:42:15Z lisp658: pillton: sorry.
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2016-07-15T00:53:30Z lisp658: (remove 'x '(a b c x d)) will return '(a b c d) right? so if I want to really update the list I would have to write (setf newlist (remove 'x '(a b c x d)))?
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2016-07-15T00:57:26Z jason_m: lisp658: That's correct.  Note that by default, remove will remove all occurrences of an item.
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2016-07-15T00:57:33Z jason_m: (remove 'x '(a x b c x d x)) => (A B C D)
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2016-07-15T00:58:35Z jason_m: you can use a :count keyword parameter and :from-end for finer control if you don't want that behavior
2016-07-15T00:59:11Z jason_m: (remove 'x '(a x b c x d x) :count 2 :from-end t) => (A X B C D)
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2016-07-15T01:42:04Z lisp658: how do I test if two lists are not equal?
2016-07-15T01:43:14Z |3b|: (not (equal ...)) ?
2016-07-15T01:43:32Z |3b|: possibly replacing the EQUAL with something else depending on which definition of equality you want
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2016-07-15T03:38:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-15T04:00:05Z dwchandler: God morgen, beach!
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2016-07-15T04:00:43Z beach: That would be, lessee, Gerdish? :)
2016-07-15T04:00:55Z beach: Or Sweman?
2016-07-15T04:01:04Z dwchandler: Nah, Norwegian
2016-07-15T04:01:29Z beach: Ah! OK.
2016-07-15T04:01:43Z dwchandler: God morgen allesammen!
2016-07-15T04:01:57Z dwchandler: literally, good morning all you fish
2016-07-15T04:02:02Z dwchandler: no, that's a lie
2016-07-15T04:05:45Z jasom: the lisp community has gotten big enough that there are now two people named Jason M. in #lisp
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