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2016-07-01T01:13:54Z elricsfate: Hello all
2016-07-01T01:14:08Z elricsfate: I'm pretty sure the source code I'm trying to run has an error in it. Is there a "cc" command?
2016-07-01T01:14:23Z elricsfate: I'm pretty sure it's trying to run gcc but there is a typo in the source
2016-07-01T01:15:07Z jasom: elricsfate: can you give us some more contect?
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2016-07-01T01:15:41Z elricsfate: Sure. I'm trying to host an API called "turtl". I've followed the instructions, installed quicklisp, and now I'm trying to actually run the program
2016-07-01T01:15:49Z elricsfate: https://turtl.it/docs/server/
2016-07-01T01:16:14Z elricsfate: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/386926/33577114/
2016-07-01T01:16:22Z elricsfate: Here is a paste starting just above the error
2016-07-01T01:17:35Z elricsfate: That help jasom ?
2016-07-01T01:19:48Z schally: you're right, it's probably trying to run gcc
2016-07-01T01:19:58Z schally: did you try correcting it to that?
2016-07-01T01:20:31Z Mon_Ouie: Maybe it just uses cc as a default command to call the C compiler when the CC environment variable isn't set?
2016-07-01T01:20:40Z jasom: It's using the groveller
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2016-07-01T01:21:50Z jasom: elricsfate: cffi-grovel:*cc* is what you need to change
2016-07-01T01:21:58Z jasom: elricsfate: what system are you on that doesn't have cc?
2016-07-01T01:23:19Z jasom: elricsfate: "cc" is the traditional name for the system C compiler on *nix
2016-07-01T01:23:42Z jasom: systems where the native compiler is gcc, it should be a copy or a link to gcc
2016-07-01T01:27:46Z elricsfate: Let me install gcc, that will probably solve it
2016-07-01T01:30:32Z elricsfate: Think taht got it!
2016-07-01T01:31:20Z jasom: great
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2016-07-01T01:32:34Z aries_liuxueyang: hey,
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2016-07-01T01:41:33Z aries_liuxueyang: how do you sort an subarray in place. this is what I do: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319577 Is there a better way?
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2016-07-01T01:46:05Z jasom: aries_liuxueyang: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319577#1
2016-07-01T01:46:30Z jasom: That works on all implementations, but I haven't decided yet if it is guaranteed to work based on the spec
2016-07-01T01:47:20Z jasom: "The sorting operation can be destructive in all cases. In the case of a vector argument, this is accomplished by permuting the elements in place." <-- not clear if this requires implementations to permute the elements in place or not
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2016-07-01T01:47:56Z jasom: Oh "
2016-07-01T01:47:58Z jasom: If sequence is a vector, the result might or might not be simple, and might or might not be identical to sequence.
2016-07-01T01:48:15Z jasom: so it's non-portable, but everything I've tried does it in-place
2016-07-01T01:48:49Z aries_liuxueyang: jasom, it's destructive, but it is array. I can not just use (sort (subseq array 1)), it does not work.
2016-07-01T01:49:09Z jasom: aries_liuxueyang: did you see my annotation?
2016-07-01T01:49:20Z aries_liuxueyang: yeah.
2016-07-01T01:49:23Z jasom: that works
2016-07-01T01:49:46Z jasom: if an implementation were to choose to make the result of sort not be identical to the array passed in, as the spec allows, then it wouldn't work
2016-07-01T01:50:08Z aries_liuxueyang: jasom, thank you so much. I use sbcl.
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2016-07-01T01:52:32Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_d.htm#displaced_array glossary entry for how it works
2016-07-01T01:53:01Z aries_liuxueyang: I am reading it. thanks for your explain.
2016-07-01T01:54:07Z pierpa: I suspect that an implementation which wouldn't sort arrays in place would break all cl program which sort arrays :)
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2016-07-01T01:55:50Z aries_liuxueyang: pierpa, in sbcl, sorting an array is destructive. (sort my-array #'<), will change the my-array.
2016-07-01T01:56:07Z jasom: pierpa: well aries_liuxueyang's original implementation would work on such an implementation
2016-07-01T01:56:09Z pierpa: it is destructive in any implementation
2016-07-01T01:56:28Z jasom: aries_liuxueyang: it is *allowed* to be destructive, it is not *required* to be; returning a new array with the sorted data is allowed
2016-07-01T01:56:43Z aries_liuxueyang: okay.
2016-07-01T01:56:56Z pierpa: ok, then let's say it would break 99.999% of programs which sort arrays :)
2016-07-01T01:57:03Z jasom: nobody does that because in-place sorts on arrays are almost always easier and faster than the alternative
2016-07-01T01:57:25Z jasom: or even for non fully-in-place sorts, reusing the storage is good
2016-07-01T01:57:55Z jasom: e.g. quicksort or mergesort
2016-07-01T01:58:22Z pierpa: no, wait
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2016-07-01T01:58:41Z pierpa: sort is not *allowed* to reuse the storage. It is *required* to do so
2016-07-01T01:58:57Z jasom: pierpa: but the result need not be the original array
2016-07-01T01:59:08Z pierpa: it need be
2016-07-01T01:59:16Z jasom: "If sequence is a vector, the result might or might not be simple, and might or might not be identical to sequence."
2016-07-01T01:59:16Z pierpa: "sort and stable-sort destructively sort sequences"
2016-07-01T01:59:34Z jasom: so it is destructive, but doesn't have to have the final result in the original store
2016-07-01T02:00:34Z pierpa: It does. "In the case of a vector argument, this is accomplished by permuting the elements in place."
2016-07-01T02:00:36Z jasom: remember "identical" means "the same under eq" so if the result isn't identical, then it is new storage
2016-07-01T02:00:50Z jasom: pierpa: I quoted both of those above
2016-07-01T02:01:09Z jasom: then I found the note at the bottom which makes it pretty clear that the sorted result need not be in the original sequence
2016-07-01T02:01:21Z pierpa: there's no doubt about what this means
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2016-07-01T02:02:01Z jasom: also you didn't quote the sentence right before that
2016-07-01T02:02:02Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-01T02:02:09Z jasom: The sorting operation can be destructive in all cases.
2016-07-01T02:02:14Z jasom: "can" does not mean "must"
2016-07-01T02:02:33Z jasom: so in context, *if* the sort is destructive, then it must be accomplished by permuting the elements in place for a vector
2016-07-01T02:02:38Z pierpa: in all cases. the it conseders the particular cases of vectors
2016-07-01T02:02:44Z pierpa: *then
2016-07-01T02:02:47Z jasom: but *can* not *must*
2016-07-01T02:03:04Z pierpa: in general, but vectors are handled later in particular
2016-07-01T02:03:17Z jasom: right, but that was the particular for accomplishing a destructive sort
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2016-07-01T02:03:52Z pierpa: let's say, that if ever the standard is updated this point will requires a clarification
2016-07-01T02:03:55Z jasom: Particularly when combined with the clarification later
2016-07-01T02:04:33Z jasom: If the sort is destructive, and sequence is a vector, the implementation must permute the elements in place.  Otherwise all bets are off
2016-07-01T02:04:54Z pierpa: there's no doubt that it mandates that the elements are permuted in place. The returned may be not eq to the input but the stores must be.
2016-07-01T02:05:09Z jasom: I disagree
2016-07-01T02:05:23Z pierpa: ok. It's not important anyway
2016-07-01T02:05:50Z aries_liuxueyang: anyway, we know the original array is sorted...
2016-07-01T02:06:37Z pierpa: but, in my opinion it must be so. In Jasom opinion this is implementation dependent and you are beng lucky
2016-07-01T02:06:47Z pierpa: *being
2016-07-01T02:07:19Z pierpa: (unless you mean your original version)
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2016-07-01T02:08:29Z aries_liuxueyang: pierpa, (setf (subseq my-array 1) (sort (subseq my-array 1) #'<)), you mean this expression may not be correct?
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2016-07-01T02:08:50Z pierpa: no, this one is correct
2016-07-01T02:09:38Z pierpa: but probably is less efficient than the version suggested by Jasom
2016-07-01T02:09:49Z aries_liuxueyang: got it. thanks.
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2016-07-01T02:10:56Z jasom: Somewhere there is a list of issues with the spec (like actual things that are wrong, as well as places that are ambiguous) my google-fu is failing me though
2016-07-01T02:11:14Z |3b| isn't sure the extra copies would be worse than the extra indirection of a displaced array
2016-07-01T02:11:33Z jasom: |3b|: he already had a fill-pointer, so it wasn't a simple-array anyways
2016-07-01T02:11:41Z |3b|: ah
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2016-07-01T02:11:58Z jasom: and size matters too
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2016-07-01T02:12:45Z |3b| wonder if SORT counts for the "traversal rules and side effects" sectin which prohibits adjusting the array being traversed
2016-07-01T02:12:55Z jasom: http://www.cliki.net/proposed%20ansi%20revisions%20and%20clarifications <-- this might be the one I was thinking of
2016-07-01T02:13:00Z jasom: |3b|: it does
2016-07-01T02:13:13Z jasom: |3b|: it specifically says it does in the sort description
2016-07-01T02:13:21Z |3b|: ah, ok
2016-07-01T02:13:34Z |3b|: i guess in that case it can optimize out the displacement
2016-07-01T02:14:11Z jasom: Does sbcl make such optimizations when traversing non-simple arrays?
2016-07-01T02:15:40Z jasom: but I do remember getting a PR for a project that switched to using displaced arrays for "performance reasons"; I suggested they run the code in the benchmark directory :)
2016-07-01T02:17:42Z aries_liuxueyang: jasom, "If make-array is called with one or more of adjustable, fill-pointer, or displaced-to being true, whether the resulting array is a simple array is implementation-dependent."
2016-07-01T02:18:16Z aries_liuxueyang: so it may not be simple array?
2016-07-01T02:18:40Z aries_liuxueyang: or may be.
2016-07-01T02:18:46Z jasom: aries_liuxueyang: that's mainly so that an implementation that chooses to not treat arrays with none of those differently can just declare all arrays are simple arrays
2016-07-01T02:20:13Z aries_liuxueyang: ok
2016-07-01T02:20:14Z jasom: As an example: an implementation might want to internally treat all arrays as if they had a fill-pointer, and make ones with no fill-pointer be fixed to the same as the size.  Then an array with a fill pointer would still be of type simple-array (as it's internally indistinguishable as one without a fill pointer)
2016-07-01T02:20:39Z jasom: on sbcl I think all of those are not simple-array
2016-07-01T02:21:05Z drmeister: How do I do a multiple-value assignment in loop?
2016-07-01T02:21:18Z drmeister: Something like:
2016-07-01T02:21:20Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/l4WE95II/
2016-07-01T02:21:28Z aries_liuxueyang: jasom, got it, thanks.
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2016-07-01T02:22:51Z jasom: for (x y) = (multiple-value-list ...)
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2016-07-01T02:40:09Z jasom: My favorite corner of the standard is an array of type nil must be a string (since it's elements are restricted to a subtype of character) but cannot be upgraded to a vector of simple-character since nil is also a subtype of bit, and so it can't upgrade to something that isn't a subtype of what bit upgrades to (and bit-vectors are required by the standard)
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2016-07-01T03:06:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-01T03:16:53Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2016-07-01T03:17:10Z beach: drmeister: Hey.  Long time no see.  What's up?
2016-07-01T03:18:14Z drmeister: Good things.   More grant money is flowing into the lab.
2016-07-01T03:18:20Z drmeister: I've been working on a new build system.
2016-07-01T03:18:29Z beach: Excellent!
2016-07-01T03:18:30Z drmeister: Incorporating a new build system more like.
2016-07-01T03:18:45Z drmeister: It's called 'waf' and it's Python based.
2016-07-01T03:19:15Z drmeister: Is (loop for (x y) = (multiple-value-list ...) ...) efficient?
2016-07-01T03:19:24Z loke: drmeister: Compared to what?
2016-07-01T03:19:35Z beach: It might cons.
2016-07-01T03:19:39Z drmeister: Consing a list just to destructure it.
2016-07-01T03:19:43Z loke: drmeister: it will cons more than multiple-value-bind
2016-07-01T03:19:59Z loke: drmeister: In most cases, I doubt anyone would notice the difference
2016-07-01T03:20:39Z loke: Arguably, nothing would prevent the implementation of LOOP to optimise for this case.
2016-07-01T03:25:05Z drmeister: Are there any drawbacks to compiling ASDF into Clasp directly?  One I can think of is if a new ASDF is release Clasp has to be recompiled.
2016-07-01T03:25:41Z jackdaniel: drmeister: not necessarily
2016-07-01T03:25:48Z jackdaniel: asdf has this macro: with-upgradability
2016-07-01T03:25:59Z jackdaniel: so you can hijack your bundled asdf
2016-07-01T03:26:09Z jackdaniel: even if it's compiled-in directly
2016-07-01T03:26:36Z jackdaniel: (of course you would have to load it every time when you overwrite it, but it's not a problem I suppose)
2016-07-01T03:26:54Z jackdaniel: s/when you/when you want to/
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2016-07-01T03:37:27Z drmeister: I see - I recall that now.
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2016-07-01T03:49:02Z mrrtrump: hey lispers
2016-07-01T03:49:11Z mrrtrump: werc.cat-v.org
2016-07-01T03:49:18Z mrrtrump: can I reimplement in lisp?
2016-07-01T03:49:38Z beach: You are hereby given permission.
2016-07-01T03:54:54Z loke: Gavino, is that you?
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2016-07-01T04:03:32Z Oladon: beach: he did ask can, not may ;)
2016-07-01T04:03:58Z Oladon: (Thus, the correct response is of course "I don't know, can you?")
2016-07-01T04:05:11Z beach: Sure.
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2016-07-01T05:20:50Z beach: This: http://metamodular.com/fig-code-tree.pdf is the result so far of my thinking about how to represent Common Lisp code in a buffer of Second Climacs.  It is designed so that when READ encounters code that starts in a code node, then the result of the previous READ is returned, and it is designed to support fast incremental update.
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2016-07-01T05:21:56Z beach: The figure is not complete.  Nodes also have (relative) buffer positions in them.  And I don't show whitespace nodes.
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2016-07-01T09:08:39Z shka: hello all
2016-07-01T09:09:29Z Munksgaard: shka: Hi!
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2016-07-01T12:14:49Z Forty-Bot: Hi, how do I properly run something like (lambda (x) (x x)) ?
2016-07-01T12:15:08Z shka: Forty-Bot: funcall?
2016-07-01T12:15:12Z shka: most likely
2016-07-01T12:15:44Z shka: (let ((fn (lambda (x) (x x))) (funcall fn fn))
2016-07-01T12:15:53Z shka: or something like that
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2016-07-01T12:18:26Z Forty-Bot: now, when I run that clisp doesn't use more memory; presumeably this is because of tail recusion?
2016-07-01T12:18:27Z antoszka: Forty-Bot: CL-USER(1): ((lambda (x) (funcall x x)) 'identity)
2016-07-01T12:18:27Z antoszka: IDENTITY
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2016-07-01T12:18:36Z antoszka: like this?
2016-07-01T12:18:44Z antoszka: Doesn't look very useful :)
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2016-07-01T12:20:26Z Forty-Bot: antoszka: I mean, it's not; it's just one of the simpler functions which can only be expressed in untyped lambda calculus
2016-07-01T12:20:45Z antoszka: Okay.
2016-07-01T12:22:11Z Forty-Bot: I was also wondering how clips handled large stacks
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2016-07-01T13:29:20Z alchmzt: if i have a nested hash table, how do i go about updating a nested value?
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2016-07-01T13:30:35Z dlowe: a) you might want to consider using a struct as a key instead of nesting a hash table
2016-07-01T13:30:45Z Grue``: a nested gethash? anyway, nested hash table is a recipe for massive overhead
2016-07-01T13:30:53Z dlowe: b) (setf (gethash foo (gethash bar hash-table)) ...)
2016-07-01T13:30:54Z alchmzt: it's a hash table from decoded json
2016-07-01T13:31:00Z alchmzt: not of my own creation
2016-07-01T13:31:02Z dlowe: oh, heh.
2016-07-01T13:31:09Z dlowe: well, b is what you want, then
2016-07-01T13:31:15Z alchmzt: k
2016-07-01T13:31:21Z alchmzt: i thought it might be something like that
2016-07-01T13:31:25Z alchmzt: cheers
2016-07-01T13:31:35Z dlowe: I mean, the inner gethash returns a hash table, right?
2016-07-01T13:31:40Z dlowe: and then the outer gethash uses it
2016-07-01T13:31:50Z alchmzt: im about to test it out
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2016-07-01T13:32:11Z dlowe: oh, and that will break utterly if bar doesn't exist in the hash table
2016-07-01T13:33:18Z dlowe: if you don't mind blowing memory everywhere, (setf (gethash foo (gethash bar hash-table (make-hash-table :test 'equal))) ...) will work, but it will create a new hash table every time
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2016-07-01T13:33:37Z dlowe: no, it won't work, because it won't set bar in the hash-table
2016-07-01T13:33:37Z Grue``: i think parsing json objects as hash tables is mostly wasteful (unless the input is really big)
2016-07-01T13:33:51Z dlowe: wasteful, but idiomatic
2016-07-01T13:34:03Z Grue``: alists are also idiomatic
2016-07-01T13:34:04Z alchmzt: if i was coding with Go, i'd use structs
2016-07-01T13:34:16Z Grue``: perhaps more Lispy, too
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2016-07-01T13:34:43Z dlowe: I meant idiomatic to json
2016-07-01T13:35:20Z dlowe: but yeah, I'm a little surprised that the json library uses hash tables myself.
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2016-07-01T14:02:07Z jacking: how to control the result (/ 1 3)
2016-07-01T14:02:39Z jacking: I hope the result is 0.33
2016-07-01T14:03:45Z jacking: but the result of (/ 1 3.0) is 0.33333334
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2016-07-01T14:05:03Z oGMo: why would you hope it's 0.33
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2016-07-01T14:06:46Z jacking: (setf *a* ( / 1 3.0))
2016-07-01T14:07:10Z jacking: I want *a*  0.33
2016-07-01T14:07:50Z oGMo: then set it to 0.33
2016-07-01T14:07:56Z oGMo: (/ 1 3.0) is not 0.33
2016-07-01T14:08:23Z jacking: yes , it is 0.33333334
2016-07-01T14:08:41Z oGMo: you could _display_ 2 digits when you print; use FORMAT
2016-07-01T14:09:01Z jacking: sometimes ,it need toKeep two decimal places or others
2016-07-01T14:09:08Z oGMo: but rounding that hard and doing any math is going to have terribly wrong results
2016-07-01T14:09:29Z oGMo: (and if you're using floats for math on money then you're fired ;)
2016-07-01T14:13:18Z jacking: for example, a is 0.2446 ,b is 0.2045 a+b=0.4491,but a is 0.245 b is 0.205 a+b =0.450
2016-07-01T14:16:47Z jacking: I want to determine the decimal digits by myself
2016-07-01T14:19:12Z Zhivago: Why do you want 0.33?
2016-07-01T14:19:52Z Zhivago: If you mean 33 hundredths, then writing (/ 33 100) is sufficient.
2016-07-01T14:20:14Z oGMo: given the examples i can only imagine "because it looks pretty" which is a fine reason to use FORMAT and a terrible reason to round
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2016-07-01T14:20:38Z jacking: Some engineering problems don't need such a high precision
2016-07-01T14:21:00Z Zhivago: Some do; it's wise to understand the problem rather than guessing. :)
2016-07-01T14:21:05Z pierpa`: no engineering problem is hurt by unneded precision though
2016-07-01T14:21:21Z Zhivago: Many are -- precision is not free.
2016-07-01T14:21:44Z oGMo: i can't think of any that's going to do well by introducing large, arbitrary error
2016-07-01T14:22:05Z pierpa`: zhivago: right
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2016-07-01T14:22:49Z jacking: Maybe my example has a problem
2016-07-01T14:23:30Z jacking: Sometimes really have such a demand
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2016-07-01T14:23:55Z Zhivago: Just explain why you want 0.33 :)
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2016-07-01T14:26:24Z jacking: but,why it shows 0.33333334
2016-07-01T14:26:39Z jacking: not 0.33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333334
2016-07-01T14:26:58Z jacking: just a joke
2016-07-01T14:27:13Z jacking: I don't know
2016-07-01T14:27:18Z Zhivago: Ah well, I'll put you down in column 'r'.
2016-07-01T14:28:11Z jacking: but I want to slove it
2016-07-01T14:28:14Z pierpa: jacking, try googling for "goldberg what every computer scientist should know about floating point"
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2016-07-01T14:28:28Z jacking: thank you
2016-07-01T14:29:03Z jacking: zhivago ,i am sorry
2016-07-01T14:29:08Z pierpa: (it's not an easy read. There are also simpler resumes on the net)
2016-07-01T14:30:54Z oGMo: pierpa: it's not that hard :P
2016-07-01T14:31:53Z pierpa: it depends on one's background :)
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2016-07-01T14:47:41Z francogrex: Hi, i admit i am still struggling with how PRINT works. for example in this case here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319617 why does it not store anything inthe *tempvar* variable while the previous ones do?
2016-07-01T14:49:29Z Grue``: i think you're struglling with how maphash works
2016-07-01T14:49:31Z francogrex: correction: (defparameter *tempvar* (maphash (lambda (k v) (print (list k  v))) table))
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2016-07-01T14:49:39Z Grue``: because it doesn't return anything
2016-07-01T14:49:52Z francogrex: Grue``: yes but can't print force it?
2016-07-01T14:50:21Z francogrex: maphash does not return but print does
2016-07-01T14:50:24Z Grue``: clhs maphash
2016-07-01T14:50:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_maphas.htm
2016-07-01T14:50:34Z oGMo: what does print matter?
2016-07-01T14:50:51Z Grue``: always returns nil. ergo, *tempvar* is always nil
2016-07-01T14:50:58Z francogrex: i was supposing it print the output into the tempvar
2016-07-01T14:51:11Z oGMo: the lambda returns go to maphash, and are not related or returned by maphash
2016-07-01T14:51:31Z francogrex: hmm
2016-07-01T14:51:44Z dlowe: I think you should read what print does.
2016-07-01T14:52:03Z oGMo: i think there's some basic misunderstanding about how functions work here ;)
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2016-07-01T14:54:20Z francogrex: print produces output suitable for input to read. It binds *print-escape* to true
2016-07-01T14:54:48Z dlowe: where does the output go?
2016-07-01T14:55:32Z francogrex: that's the question. in the firest example wherever it went it was captures by *X*
2016-07-01T14:55:49Z dlowe: which example?
2016-07-01T14:56:00Z francogrex: (defparameter *X* (print 3))
2016-07-01T14:56:15Z dlowe: ah, okay. that's the confusion.
2016-07-01T14:56:43Z dlowe: print returns the thing you pass to it.
2016-07-01T14:56:53Z dlowe: but the point isn't to do that.
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2016-07-01T14:57:03Z dlowe: you can just (defparameter *X* 3) if that was the point
2016-07-01T14:57:15Z dlowe: the point is that it writes it to an output stream
2016-07-01T14:57:19Z francogrex: my point was to make maphash return
2016-07-01T14:57:26Z dlowe: nothing will make maphash return a value
2016-07-01T14:57:37Z francogrex: i though since print returns... but I am wrong
2016-07-01T14:57:47Z francogrex: i see now
2016-07-01T14:58:07Z dlowe: so you wanted to both print the values and return the value at the same time?
2016-07-01T14:58:08Z francogrex: so intead of maphash I will use loop on the hash table
2016-07-01T14:58:15Z francogrex: yes
2016-07-01T14:58:22Z dlowe: you can do that, or you can accumulate the value yourself.
2016-07-01T14:58:39Z francogrex: also through pusing into a list or soething
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2016-07-01T14:58:46Z francogrex: pushing into a list
2016-07-01T14:58:57Z dlowe: (let ((result nil)) (maphash (lambda (k v) (push (print (list k v)) result)) hash) result)
2016-07-01T14:58:58Z francogrex: it's ugly though
2016-07-01T14:59:13Z dlowe: more or less ugly than loops hash syntax :)
2016-07-01T14:59:25Z dlowe: because loop is pretty ugly in this case
2016-07-01T15:00:42Z francogrex: true
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2016-07-01T15:01:15Z dlowe: if you use alexandria, you can use hash-table-alist which may be close to what you're looking for
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2016-07-01T15:04:34Z francogrex: hash-table-alist ok yes. thanks dlowe
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2016-07-01T15:05:36Z impaktor: Hi! I'm setting up slime (from melpa) with sbcl in emacs. My config is one line, setting inferior-lisp-program to sbcl. Yet, my REPL doesn't look as "nice" as in the tutorials I've seen (that also use sbcl), like Marco Baringer's 1h SLIME tutorial. Is this how it is supposed to be, or am I doing something wrong: http://pastebin.com/BUwGs7az
2016-07-01T15:05:52Z impaktor: Do I need to put something in .sbclrc?
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2016-07-01T15:07:44Z Amaan: What does yours look like?
2016-07-01T15:09:55Z impaktor: My .sbclrc: http://pastebin.com/FvHJsAFk
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2016-07-01T15:15:28Z _death: you shouldn't use slime from melpa.. use the quicklisp version (via quicklisp-slime-helper)..
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2016-07-01T15:16:10Z _death: and it has more to do with your emacs config.. the quicklisp helper provides some config already
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2016-07-01T15:17:32Z Grue``: wait, what's wrong with slime from melpa
2016-07-01T15:18:28Z Grue``: impaktor: put into your .emacs: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy))
2016-07-01T15:18:41Z _death: Grue: confusion that leads to such questions in the channel.. occassional breakage due to not using a proper release.. not what I would recommend for a newbie
2016-07-01T15:19:24Z impaktor: Grue`: I tried that with the melpa version, doesn't help.
2016-07-01T15:20:08Z Grue``: you tried restarting emacs?
2016-07-01T15:20:24Z impaktor: Grue``: yes.
2016-07-01T15:20:41Z impaktor: I also have a minimal .emacs for testing this.
2016-07-01T15:20:55Z impaktor: Just loads package my packages, then slime.
2016-07-01T15:21:11Z impaktor: emacs -Q -l my_minimal_dotemacs.el
2016-07-01T15:21:19Z Grue``: either way, how your slime looks depends entirely on the emacs side, not .sbclrc
2016-07-01T15:22:31Z Grue``: paste your .emacs
2016-07-01T15:22:46Z impaktor: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319622
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2016-07-01T15:24:46Z Grue``: there's no slime-fancy anywhere
2016-07-01T15:24:47Z impaktor: Hm, OK, seems I spoke too soon. Now I have facy REPL.
2016-07-01T15:25:06Z impaktor: Grue``: Right, because I tried your suggestion yesterday.
2016-07-01T15:25:14Z impaktor: But trying it now, in that file, it works.
2016-07-01T15:26:02Z impaktor: Sorry, for bothering. Now I just need it to work in my "full" ~/.emacs.
2016-07-01T15:26:34Z Grue``: I wonder if there are people who use SLIME without slime-fancy. why isn't it the default?
2016-07-01T15:27:49Z impaktor: This is what happens when I run M-x slime in my full emacs-config: http://pastebin.com/raw/JuHqPsyH
2016-07-01T15:28:14Z impaktor: I'll do a binary comment out of it to narrow down what causes this.
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2016-07-01T15:30:48Z impaktor: OK, I got it working. Strange. I was wrestling with this for a long time yesterday.
2016-07-01T15:31:06Z impaktor: Thanks for your help (and sorry for wasting your time.)
2016-07-01T15:31:42Z _death: Grue: I believe one of the slime developers (perhaps no longer active?) wanted to keep it "minimal".. and what's good enough for that developer is obviously good enough for the unwashed
2016-07-01T15:35:59Z _death: Grue: also, it is the default if you use the quicklisp helper..
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2016-07-01T15:50:24Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-07-01T15:51:24Z beach: Chapter 8 of this document: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.pdf contains my latest ideas about how to represent Common Lisp code in Second Climacs.  If you like that kind of stuff, please let me know what you think.
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2016-07-01T16:53:06Z brfennpocock: beach: Climacs2 doc: I like it, at least.
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2016-07-01T17:14:59Z reb`: beach: If you haven't done so, please take a peek at this book:  https://www.amazon.com/Human-Factors-Typography-Readable-Programs/dp/0201107457
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2016-07-01T17:28:39Z beach: brfennpocock: Thanks!
2016-07-01T17:28:52Z beach: reb`: Will do.  Thanks.
2016-07-01T17:29:58Z Cthulhux: the topic is outdated. sbcl 1.3.7 is released :)
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2016-07-01T17:30:13Z brfennpocock: beach: Pet wish list: proportional fonts alignment to appropriate columns. Terribly difficult to do in Gnu Emacs, but way nicer IMHO
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2016-07-01T17:33:29Z beach: brfennpocock: Yes, I have been thinking about that.  It would be quite nice.
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2016-07-01T18:09:25Z reepca`: beach: minor note - typo in footnote 2 of chapter 8: s/where/were
2016-07-01T18:09:45Z reepca`: minion: memo for beach: minor note - typo in footnote 2 of chapter 8: s/where/were
2016-07-01T18:09:45Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-07-01T18:24:49Z mordocai: Whoa, minion automagically makes memos when you direct something at someone who isn't here? TIL
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2016-07-01T18:28:49Z reepca`: you have to specifically direct a message at it starting with "memo for <name>:"
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2016-07-01T18:32:10Z rumbler31: minion: memo for mordocai: and it waits for you to speak next before giving you memos
2016-07-01T18:32:10Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell mordocai when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-07-01T21:44:46Z pierpa: minion: memo for pierpa: test
2016-07-01T21:44:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pierpa when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-07-01T21:44:46Z minion: pierpa, memo from pierpa: test
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2016-07-01T21:47:57Z rumbler31: hey pierpa
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2016-07-01T21:54:15Z pierpa: hoj rumbler31!
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2016-07-01T21:54:49Z rumbler31: oh lol i was trying to trigger your memo :) i failed to notice it triggered immediately
2016-07-01T21:54:59Z rumbler31: inept troll is inept
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2016-07-01T21:55:44Z pierpa: yes, it fired back at me!
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2016-07-01T21:56:24Z pierpa: minion: memo for rumbler31: here's youe memo
2016-07-01T21:56:24Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rumbler31 when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-07-01T21:56:31Z rumbler31: wat
2016-07-01T21:56:31Z minion: rumbler31, memo from pierpa: here's youe memo
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2016-07-01T21:56:45Z rumbler31: minion: memo for minion: trololol
2016-07-01T21:56:46Z minion: Buzz off.
2016-07-01T21:56:58Z rumbler31: XD
2016-07-01T21:57:08Z pierpa: rumbler31: memo for minion: prrr
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2016-07-01T22:52:46Z pierpa: who is the maintainer of mt19937?  where to report bugs?
2016-07-01T22:54:07Z rumbler31: prr
2016-07-01T22:54:21Z rumbler31: got me.
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2016-07-01T22:54:27Z pierpa: tht was for minion, not for me
2016-07-01T22:54:30Z pierpa: +a
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2016-07-02T00:07:13Z edgar-rft: pierpa: mt19937 - Raymond Toy and Robert Dodier are mentioned as the authors at the beginning of mt19937.lisp - RaymondToy is the current maintainer of CMUCL, he and Robert Dodier both can be reached on the Maxima mailing lists, details see <http://maxima.sourceforge.net/maximalist.html>
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2016-07-02T00:10:39Z pierpa: edgar-rft: thank you. However I'm not using the version included in cmucl or maxima, but the portable version from cliki.net. The cmucl people are not interested in the portable version.
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2016-07-02T00:14:28Z edgar-rft: pierpa: But the maxima folks *are* interested in the portable version, so I think it's best to ask on the maxima-discuss list if anyone can help or at least tell who is the current maintainer of mt19937. I know that Raymond Toy and Robert Dodier both read that list.
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2016-07-02T00:15:04Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-02T00:15:29Z edgar-rft: There also is a freenode #maxima channel, but the mailing lists are usually much faster.
2016-07-02T00:16:50Z pierpa: years ago, when mt19937 was new and had been ported to cl recently, I sent to the cmucl m.l. my modifications to mt19937 to make it portable cl. Cmucl people ignored it completely. They were not interested in portability.
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2016-07-02T00:17:47Z pierpa: I have not tried the maxima m.l. but they are mostly the same people. I assume they are not interested in making something portable outside of maxima.
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2016-07-02T00:18:51Z pierpa: now, the version on cliki.net says it has been ported to portable CL, but it is not really so.
2016-07-02T00:19:07Z edgar-rft: pierpa: Maxima *is* portable lisp code, what else do you want?
2016-07-02T00:19:39Z edgar-rft: what ius the specific problem with the CLiki version?
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2016-07-02T00:20:21Z pierpa: maxima is portable but it does not use short or long floats when available
2016-07-02T00:20:46Z pierpa: the cliki version, like the cmucl on, works only for single and double floats
2016-07-02T00:20:52Z pierpa: +one
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2016-07-02T00:22:20Z edgar-rft: gimme a few minutes, I have the CLiki code here...
2016-07-02T00:23:43Z gigglypuff: I know SICP doesn't use CL, but I'm just curious and won't dwell on this subject too long: Does the difficulty of the chapters after Chapter 2 get easier, harder or do they stey about the same in terms of difficulty, relative to the first two chapters. Just curious, as I'm almost done with Chapter 2. Thanks in advance, folks.
2016-07-02T00:24:18Z pierpa: about the same
2016-07-02T00:24:43Z pierpa: except in the first chapter they assume you know some elementary calculus
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2016-07-02T00:24:47Z pierpa: *chapters
2016-07-02T00:25:00Z pierpa: and subsequent chapters there's no calculus
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2016-07-02T00:26:22Z gigglypuff: That's good to hear. Would you say chapters 3, 4 and 5 are more less mathematical, pierpa? Did you get through them faster than the first two?
2016-07-02T00:26:53Z pierpa: I don't remember. I read it in the past millennium :)
2016-07-02T00:27:39Z gigglypuff: Haha, okay. Thanks for responding. Glad there won't be any more calculus.
2016-07-02T00:28:20Z pierpa: yw
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2016-07-02T00:31:19Z edgar-rft: pierpa: Your problem is that there are only %random-single-float and %random-double-float functions but no %random-short-float and %random-long-float functions to convert a %random-integer into the respective short or long float types? Have I understood that correctly?
2016-07-02T00:32:45Z pierpa: yes
2016-07-02T00:35:46Z pierpa: then, of course, writing by hand a different function for each float size is, let's say, suboptimal
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2016-07-02T00:41:18Z pierpa: as is *suboptimal* to embed magic constants in the code
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2016-07-02T00:50:32Z edgar-rft: pierpa: The CLiki mt19937 computes double-floats with a 52-bit mantissa (as defined by IEEE_754), but Common Lisp defines double-floats with a 50-bit mantissa. To me this looks as if mt19937 is meant to simulate IEEE floats, not Common Lisp floats, and IEEE has neither short nor long floats. But then again this can only be answered by Raxmond Toy or Robert Dodier.
2016-07-02T00:51:05Z pierpa: what?  common lisp does not mandate the size of double floats
2016-07-02T00:51:15Z pierpa: or of any kinf of floats
2016-07-02T00:51:52Z pierpa: edgar-rftm, you are misunderstanding something about CL floats
2016-07-02T00:52:27Z pierpa: mt19937.lisp is meant to offer a replacement for the CL RANDOM function
2016-07-02T00:52:48Z pierpa: as it is, it is incomplete, and not portable
2016-07-02T00:53:33Z pierpa: I had already made it complete and portable. Today I was looking for my old code, and couldn't find it
2016-07-02T00:54:02Z pierpa: so, I looked at the cliki version to see if the current one was better than the old cmucl version
2016-07-02T00:55:37Z pierpa: I hope to find my old code, or I'll have to redo the work (or use another portable RNG)
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2016-07-02T00:58:59Z edgar-rft: Yes, ok, Common Lisp recommends a "minimum precisision", it doesn't define a must-have "absolute precision", as described here: <http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_short_.htm> what leads to the question: is there any portable definition what number of bits the mantissa of the four float types *must* have, because otherwise you're doomed to use implementation-defined #+/#- conditional constants.
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2016-07-02T01:00:30Z pierpa: there are CL functions to interrogate the characteristics of floats
2016-07-02T01:01:01Z pierpa: see this page http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_dec_fl.htm
2016-07-02T01:01:44Z Josh_2: Why so quiet in CLnoobs?
2016-07-02T01:02:06Z pierpa: what's clnoobs
2016-07-02T01:02:13Z Josh_2: An IRC channel
2016-07-02T01:02:21Z Josh_2: Designed for me
2016-07-02T01:02:24Z Josh_2: a CL noob haha
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2016-07-02T01:03:39Z pierpa: I think noob questions are allowed also in this channel :)
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2016-07-02T01:13:14Z JuanDaugherty: it's prolly just a corner to you get sent to if you get on the adults nerves
2016-07-02T01:13:26Z JuanDaugherty: s/to//
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2016-07-02T03:12:09Z RalphFurley2: for any Dyland refugees I would advise looking at Stanza - http://lbstanza.org/ - very clean, new engineerd language
2016-07-02T03:12:28Z RalphFurley2: I would hope CL people look at it too
2016-07-02T03:12:56Z RalphFurley2: very smart people engineering this one
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2016-07-02T03:14:30Z RalphFurley2: can some Lisp folks get behind non-s-expressions? ;)
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2016-07-02T03:16:00Z RalphFurley2: I think it's time to get behind something beyond CL
2016-07-02T03:19:11Z RalphFurley2: Dylan died mostly because Apple was on its deathbead, but Dylan was a very, very verbose language
2016-07-02T03:19:40Z RalphFurley2: This is Dylan, CL, awesome Python syntax, very smart type system
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2016-07-02T03:27:00Z pierpa: I like verbose syntaxes
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2016-07-02T03:35:48Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, you ever touch Dylan?
2016-07-02T03:36:19Z RalphFurley2: verbose because mostly of the optional typing, but a lot of confused syntax decisions back in the early 90s
2016-07-02T03:36:35Z RalphFurley2: flip those reasons
2016-07-02T03:36:44Z RalphFurley2: very much syntax decisions
2016-07-02T03:37:02Z phadthai: am I mistaken or there is no macro example on the site?
2016-07-02T03:37:15Z RalphFurley2: LBStanza is dylan and CL done right...very powerful...awesome Macros...very, very bright Berkley engineers working on this for years
2016-07-02T03:37:48Z RalphFurley2: phadthai, hold on, the docs might be stowed away
2016-07-02T03:37:54Z pierpa: RalphFurley2: I browsed Shalit's Dylan manual, but never actually programmed in it.
2016-07-02T03:38:23Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, I want types
2016-07-02T03:38:35Z RalphFurley2: and I want modern syntax, but the power of CL
2016-07-02T03:38:45Z RalphFurley2: and a modern functional core
2016-07-02T03:38:55Z RalphFurley2: with multi-dispatch built in
2016-07-02T03:39:19Z RalphFurley2: can't stand OO in those other languages
2016-07-02T03:39:49Z RalphFurley2: multiple-inheritance and multi-dispatch is a far superior system of composing programs
2016-07-02T03:40:12Z pierpa: I'm scared about your "modern syntax". Probably I won't like it. Anyway, will give a look at Stanza
2016-07-02T03:40:12Z RalphFurley2: just don't compose functions
2016-07-02T03:40:20Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, Python :)
2016-07-02T03:40:33Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, give it a chance...Python is nice
2016-07-02T03:40:55Z RalphFurley2: even Peter Norvig is pimping Python as well as many CL greybeards
2016-07-02T03:41:02Z pierpa: apart from syntax, what do you like in Stanza more than CL?
2016-07-02T03:41:21Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, I want gradual typing built in
2016-07-02T03:41:23Z RalphFurley2: i want types
2016-07-02T03:41:47Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-02T03:41:51Z RalphFurley2: just give me types on function parameters and i'm 90% there
2016-07-02T03:42:05Z RalphFurley2: and give me a good type system and we can get the fluid of CL
2016-07-02T03:42:07Z pierpa: kinda like Julia?
2016-07-02T03:42:12Z RalphFurley2: yes
2016-07-02T03:42:19Z pierpa: Julia is not a bad language
2016-07-02T03:42:22Z RalphFurley2: but much more Lisp
2016-07-02T03:42:34Z RalphFurley2: this is definitely Lisp/Dyland inspired
2016-07-02T03:42:51Z RalphFurley2: the docs are there, you just need to drill down a bit
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2016-07-02T03:43:23Z RalphFurley2: these are guys that actually scrubbed a huge design like 2-3 years ago and then designed this
2016-07-02T03:43:32Z RalphFurley2: and from Berkley
2016-07-02T03:43:39Z pierpa: do you know ocaml?
2016-07-02T03:43:45Z RalphFurley2: love me some F#
2016-07-02T03:44:27Z RalphFurley2: F# is used quite a bit in Finance
2016-07-02T03:44:33Z RalphFurley2: huge in London
2016-07-02T03:44:43Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-02T03:45:05Z RalphFurley2: engineers that just wanna right algorithms and not Classes
2016-07-02T03:45:17Z RalphFurley2: write
2016-07-02T03:45:19Z RalphFurley2: oops
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2016-07-02T03:45:46Z RalphFurley2: sorry, I just hate daily OO languages
2016-07-02T03:46:11Z RalphFurley2: so I'm pimping this language, which i think, given enough people interested from the Lisp community, can take off
2016-07-02T03:46:42Z pierpa: even if the language is worthy, taking off requires years
2016-07-02T03:46:50Z pierpa: if at all
2016-07-02T03:47:01Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, need smart CL engineers to start playing around
2016-07-02T03:47:22Z pierpa: I mean, even if the language is worthy, and lot of smart people get interested, still it takes years
2016-07-02T03:47:33Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, what's your damn point?
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2016-07-02T03:47:47Z pierpa: no damn points
2016-07-02T03:47:52Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, just give up like every other language didn't have any traction when it first came out?
2016-07-02T03:48:26Z RalphFurley2: my grammar sucks..sorry
2016-07-02T03:48:30Z pierpa: the point is, I'm not expecting to have something usable this year, or next year
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2016-07-02T03:48:46Z RalphFurley2: pierpa, this is new Lisp
2016-07-02T03:48:47Z ben_vulpes: sbcl does type annotation on function args pretty well, no?
2016-07-02T03:48:49Z pierpa: then, I already said I will look at it
2016-07-02T03:49:01Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, yes brother, but CL is dead..sorry
2016-07-02T03:49:11Z RalphFurley2: no more CL
2016-07-02T03:49:30Z RalphFurley2: we need people
2016-07-02T03:50:00Z ben_vulpes rolls eyes
2016-07-02T03:50:11Z ben_vulpes: what do you even mean
2016-07-02T03:50:12Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, fine, i can program in Pascal still too
2016-07-02T03:50:47Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, this cool language, that is "almost" as powerful as CL needs people and CL is dead
2016-07-02T03:50:52Z ben_vulpes: thing has a full mop?
2016-07-02T03:50:59Z RalphFurley2: you crazy!
2016-07-02T03:51:06Z ben_vulpes: what?
2016-07-02T03:51:08Z RalphFurley2: we don't need a full MOP
2016-07-02T03:51:25Z ben_vulpes: meta object protocol should be table stakes for $langs
2016-07-02T03:51:26Z RalphFurley2: the full MOP is crazy, scientists like you!
2016-07-02T03:51:35Z ben_vulpes: nah tres useful
2016-07-02T03:51:42Z RalphFurley2: bah, bah
2016-07-02T03:51:48Z ben_vulpes: bah yourself
2016-07-02T03:51:55Z RalphFurley2: then work with these Stanza guys
2016-07-02T03:52:03Z RalphFurley2: maybe they can work it in
2016-07-02T03:52:07Z ben_vulpes: nah
2016-07-02T03:52:15Z RalphFurley2: no, no SBCL
2016-07-02T03:52:16Z ben_vulpes: this dead lang seems fine
2016-07-02T03:52:26Z RalphFurley2: i know
2016-07-02T03:52:40Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, just check it out http://lbstanza.org/
2016-07-02T03:52:47Z pierpa: don't fight over programming languages
2016-07-02T03:52:48Z ben_vulpes: am
2016-07-02T03:53:04Z ben_vulpes: "friendly syntax" makes me shit in fear
2016-07-02T03:53:13Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, dig deeper
2016-07-02T03:53:19Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, much deeper
2016-07-02T03:53:27Z ben_vulpes: syntactic whitespace?
2016-07-02T03:53:29Z ben_vulpes: weird
2016-07-02T03:53:29Z RalphFurley2: they have a very advanced type system
2016-07-02T03:53:36Z RalphFurley2: forget the fuckjng white space
2016-07-02T03:53:37Z pierpa: just the first token of the exampke program makes me run in fear :)
2016-07-02T03:53:42Z RalphFurley2: just look at the type system
2016-07-02T03:53:53Z pierpa: wtf is "defn"?
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2016-07-02T03:54:01Z RalphFurley2: clojure
2016-07-02T03:54:02Z RalphFurley2: heh
2016-07-02T03:54:15Z ben_vulpes: yeah how does defn work
2016-07-02T03:54:31Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, why does it fucking matter if its a macro or not?
2016-07-02T03:55:42Z ben_vulpes: dgaf re macros
2016-07-02T03:56:13Z ben_vulpes: but an explanation would be useful
2016-07-02T03:56:37Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, do you like their macro system?
2016-07-02T03:57:17Z RalphFurley2: "no, because it's no s-expression"
2016-07-02T03:57:28Z ben_vulpes: are you familiar with the phrase "intimicy breeds contempt"
2016-07-02T03:57:53Z ben_vulpes: dun really like clojure. just  use it.
2016-07-02T03:57:54Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, yes, very much so...that's why I live in my own house now
2016-07-02T03:58:20Z ben_vulpes: anyways, how does defn work?
2016-07-02T03:58:36Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, well Stanza is the new Lisp in town and it's going to be on the channel
2016-07-02T03:58:55Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, isn't core (def)
2016-07-02T03:59:11Z RalphFurley2: and we just assign an anymous function like other languages?
2016-07-02T03:59:45Z ben_vulpes: see that wasnt so hard...
2016-07-02T03:59:55Z RalphFurley2: godamn, i feel good
2016-07-02T04:00:13Z phadthai: on which channel
2016-07-02T04:00:14Z RalphFurley2: long time since I've played with CL...more recently elisp
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2016-07-02T04:01:07Z RalphFurley2: haven't been on freenode in a while, just came here to pimp http://lbstanza.org/index.html
2016-07-02T04:01:29Z RalphFurley2: i have nothing to do with the language, just saw it on HackerNews one day and was like wow..."modern dylan"
2016-07-02T04:02:52Z ben_vulpes: maybe ill play with it if its around in a decade...
2016-07-02T04:02:52Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2016-07-02T04:03:10Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, dude, it needs experienced programmers to flesh things out
2016-07-02T04:03:29Z RalphFurley2: take away the Clojure buzz
2016-07-02T04:03:38Z ben_vulpes: what buzz
2016-07-02T04:03:50Z ben_vulpes: i hate programming languages
2016-07-02T04:03:52Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, the buzz you CL people hate about Clojure:)
2016-07-02T04:04:13Z ben_vulpes: that sentence doesn't parse.
2016-07-02T04:04:40Z RalphFurley2: walgreens, tons of big, big companies are doing Clojure
2016-07-02T04:04:58Z RalphFurley2: walmart rather
2016-07-02T04:05:05Z RalphFurley2: big companies are doing clojure
2016-07-02T04:05:15Z RalphFurley2: it's not OO
2016-07-02T04:05:25Z RalphFurley2: but...Stanza is OO CL style
2016-07-02T04:05:31Z RalphFurley2: a superior, natural OO
2016-07-02T04:06:01Z ben_vulpes: so the pimps claim.
2016-07-02T04:06:08Z ben_vulpes: a better whatever
2016-07-02T04:06:13Z ben_vulpes: every time
2016-07-02T04:06:29Z RalphFurley2: i'm pimping and I claim...it's multi-dispatch, multi-inhertance builtin
2016-07-02T04:06:42Z RalphFurley2: methods and data are wrong!
2016-07-02T04:06:48Z ben_vulpes: yes youre quite noisy about things
2016-07-02T04:06:56Z RalphFurley2: I'll shut up, sorry
2016-07-02T04:07:20Z RalphFurley2: ..but at least I know how OO should be done right!
2016-07-02T04:08:34Z ben_vulpes: me too, "only used by experts far away from uninformed opionions"
2016-07-02T04:09:05Z ben_vulpes: like *all* programming techniques.
2016-07-02T04:09:15Z ben_vulpes: or *anything* difficult.
2016-07-02T04:09:29Z RalphFurley2: you're completely wrong
2016-07-02T04:09:35Z RalphFurley2: i think
2016-07-02T04:09:58Z RalphFurley2: Java/C# single inheritance and non-multi-dispatch is how you get your knickers in a twist
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2016-07-02T04:10:13Z ben_vulpes: nah, being an idiot is how you get your knickers in a twist.
2016-07-02T04:10:35Z ben_vulpes: smart people build robust systems out of even the shittiest tools under the worst circumstances.
2016-07-02T04:10:43Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, what are you saying man?
2016-07-02T04:11:07Z RalphFurley2: most of our most robust systems are made in C
2016-07-02T04:11:07Z ben_vulpes: quality of produced work has nothing to do with programming languages and everything to do with individuals until a team mean-reverts to average quality.
2016-07-02T04:11:09Z RalphFurley2: straight C
2016-07-02T04:11:26Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, then why the fuck do you care about Lisp?
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2016-07-02T04:11:32Z ben_vulpes: i do?
2016-07-02T04:11:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-02T04:11:40Z minion: beach, memo from reepca`: minor note - typo in footnote 2 of chapter 8: s/where/were
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2016-07-02T04:11:48Z ben_vulpes: hi beach
2016-07-02T04:11:50Z ben_vulpes: low snr today
2016-07-02T04:12:01Z beach: I noticed in the logs, yes.
2016-07-02T04:12:57Z RalphFurley2: good morning beach, i'm pimping a new Lisp language
2016-07-02T04:12:58Z RalphFurley2: http://lbstanza.org/index.html
2016-07-02T04:13:18Z beach: RalphFurley2: #lisp is about Common Lisp.  Take that to ##lisp, please.
2016-07-02T04:13:20Z RalphFurley2: and ben_vulpes might kill me for doing it
2016-07-02T04:13:25Z RalphFurley2: come on now
2016-07-02T04:13:35Z RalphFurley2: why is #lisp #CL
2016-07-02T04:13:45Z RalphFurley2: beach, take a look at the new Dylan brother/sister
2016-07-02T04:13:45Z beach: Historical reasons.
2016-07-02T04:13:50Z ben_vulpes: hysterical raisins
2016-07-02T04:13:52Z RalphFurley2: take a look...
2016-07-02T04:14:07Z beach: RalphFurley2: Please stick to Common Lisp here in #lisp.
2016-07-02T04:14:22Z RalphFurley2: beach, come on man
2016-07-02T04:14:32Z RalphFurley2: #lisp is not CL
2016-07-02T04:14:38Z beach: Yes, it is.
2016-07-02T04:14:40Z RalphFurley2: and there is no other channel
2016-07-02T04:14:45Z beach: There is ##lisp.
2016-07-02T04:15:10Z phadthai: and other lisps have their channels as well
2016-07-02T04:15:24Z beach: Check the topic.  This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2016-07-02T04:15:34Z RalphFurley2: it's a hostile takeover with ben_vulpes in cahoots i say!
2016-07-02T04:15:48Z RalphFurley2: fine, fine
2016-07-02T04:16:14Z RalphFurley2: beach, just take a look at the language anyway and I'll shut up about it
2016-07-02T04:17:47Z RalphFurley2: the problem with the homepage is that they don't have another menu option that says "For the CL community"
2016-07-02T04:17:50Z phadthai: we have a #lisp-cafe (or ##lisp-cafe) too where that discussion would also suit
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2016-07-02T04:18:49Z RalphFurley2: phadthai, so this #lisp community is completely off topic about any other lisp-like programming languages?
2016-07-02T04:19:01Z RalphFurley2: just CL
2016-07-02T04:19:07Z RalphFurley2: we can't talk about other lisps
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2016-07-02T04:19:37Z beach: That ought to be a familiar concept to you; a channel dedicated to a particular topic.
2016-07-02T04:19:47Z RalphFurley2: beach, no, the topic is #lisp
2016-07-02T04:19:55Z beach: Don't tell me you get hung up just because of a name.
2016-07-02T04:20:08Z beach: You must not read very much scientific literature.
2016-07-02T04:20:27Z beach: "What, this so called SIMPLE rewrite system is not simple at all.  Reject the paper."
2016-07-02T04:20:27Z RalphFurley2: beach, a weird, and very weak rip
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2016-07-02T04:20:38Z RalphFurley2: you don't play poker
2016-07-02T04:20:49Z RalphFurley2: he's probably a european
2016-07-02T04:21:09Z RalphFurley2: fine, fine, fine
2016-07-02T04:21:13Z RalphFurley2: yes, we're getting ugly
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2016-07-02T04:22:21Z phadthai: there also are more general programming channels on freenode too which are not language-specific, i.e. ##programming
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2016-07-02T04:22:43Z RalphFurley2: phadthai, what the hell is going on in the CL community?
2016-07-02T04:23:00Z RalphFurley2: QuickLisp by Zach..freaking awesome..besides that
2016-07-02T04:24:01Z RalphFurley2: hey beach, do if NaughtyDog old-timer engineers come on the channel, can they talk about their home-grown Lisp?
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2016-07-02T04:25:18Z phadthai: you're free to have your opinion, to not be interested in CL even...  I neither use asdf nor quicklisp but have used CL for some personal projects here and it was nice
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2016-07-02T04:25:51Z RalphFurley2: phadthai, may I ask what personal projects you used it on?
2016-07-02T04:26:34Z phadthai: an httpd, an ids, some log analyser are a few I can think of
2016-07-02T04:26:56Z RalphFurley2: i just thought of CL as a much better Gulp
2016-07-02T04:27:18Z RalphFurley2: loop sucks some say, but something funky like that
2016-07-02T04:27:30Z RalphFurley2: everybody has Node
2016-07-02T04:27:55Z ben_vulpes: no, everybody has dunning-kruger
2016-07-02T04:27:57Z RalphFurley2: phadthai, are you from asia my friend?
2016-07-02T04:28:07Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, very funny you bring that up
2016-07-02T04:28:31Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, HN has something I clicked on about that...
2016-07-02T04:28:48Z RalphFurley2: not me..I'm an average programmer and I fret over things
2016-07-02T04:28:58Z RalphFurley2: that's why I like powerful languages
2016-07-02T04:29:09Z ben_vulpes: oh you're an average programmer you say
2016-07-02T04:29:11Z ben_vulpes: huh
2016-07-02T04:29:14Z ben_vulpes: quelle surprise
2016-07-02T04:29:40Z RalphFurley2: smart languages let average programmers deal with cognitive short-distances
2016-07-02T04:29:58Z ben_vulpes: or build monstrosoties of complexity to parse text files
2016-07-02T04:30:00Z ben_vulpes: same diff
2016-07-02T04:30:11Z RalphFurley2: i said smart languages, not Java/C#
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2016-07-02T04:30:18Z RalphFurley2: and not OO
2016-07-02T04:30:35Z ben_vulpes: the only thing that can enforce simplicity is human discipline.
2016-07-02T04:30:38Z ben_vulpes: it is not mechanisable.
2016-07-02T04:30:43Z RalphFurley2: wrong
2016-07-02T04:30:49Z RalphFurley2: you're totally wrong
2016-07-02T04:30:58Z RalphFurley2: just "transform" data
2016-07-02T04:31:07Z ben_vulpes: "take it from the average programmer! you're very wrong!"
2016-07-02T04:31:17Z RalphFurley2: data is a pipeline and so are events
2016-07-02T04:31:23Z RalphFurley2: there's only events and pipelines
2016-07-02T04:32:00Z RalphFurley2: stop mutating
2016-07-02T04:32:52Z ben_vulpes: man your inability to maintain a coherent thread is pretty great
2016-07-02T04:33:02Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, you hate that i'm true
2016-07-02T04:33:07Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, let me tell you something
2016-07-02T04:33:13Z ben_vulpes: > i'm true
2016-07-02T04:33:14Z RalphFurley2: an event bubbles up
2016-07-02T04:33:23Z RalphFurley2: data bubbles down
2016-07-02T04:33:30Z RalphFurley2: very simple
2016-07-02T04:33:34Z ben_vulpes: sounds a lot like a human abstraction
2016-07-02T04:33:42Z ben_vulpes: bubbles float typically
2016-07-02T04:33:47Z ben_vulpes: so i don't really get the details of your metaphor
2016-07-02T04:33:52Z RalphFurley2: dude, no
2016-07-02T04:34:02Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, i click a button
2016-07-02T04:34:07Z ben_vulpes: hey it's your responsibility to be clear
2016-07-02T04:34:09Z RalphFurley2: there's maybe some data with it
2016-07-02T04:34:14Z RalphFurley2: hopefully not
2016-07-02T04:34:24Z ben_vulpes: talking about programming in some particular inane ui stack now?
2016-07-02T04:34:25Z RalphFurley2: "I" don't handle that event
2016-07-02T04:34:40Z RalphFurley2: it goes up the chain and someone else handles that
2016-07-02T04:34:44Z RalphFurley2: i don't care
2016-07-02T04:34:51Z RalphFurley2: the data comes down back to me
2016-07-02T04:35:04Z RalphFurley2: i handle that data that some thijng gave to me
2016-07-02T04:35:07Z RalphFurley2: that's React!
2016-07-02T04:35:26Z RalphFurley2: and that's functional, and that's why data and methods are wrong
2016-07-02T04:35:52Z ben_vulpes: RalphFurley2: has the good lsd
2016-07-02T04:35:54Z ben_vulpes: please to share
2016-07-02T04:36:37Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, brother, you haven't played around with React yet?
2016-07-02T04:36:48Z ben_vulpes: quite a bit
2016-07-02T04:36:58Z RalphFurley2: https://facebook.github.io/react/docs/thinking-in-react.html
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2016-07-02T04:37:14Z RalphFurley2: that's how software should be developed
2016-07-02T04:37:28Z ben_vulpes: frp's a pretty old snore
2016-07-02T04:37:47Z ben_vulpes: i guess a capital letter and a sv scam backed thing dazzled you huh
2016-07-02T04:37:50Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, fine, you're great front-end guy and very smart dude
2016-07-02T04:38:06Z ben_vulpes: why ty!
2016-07-02T04:38:11Z ben_vulpes: not at all but continue
2016-07-02T04:38:33Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, yep, actually I do Aurelia http://aurelia.io/
2016-07-02T04:38:51Z RalphFurley2: did my whole portal system in it Aurelia
2016-07-02T04:39:07Z ben_vulpes: some kind of nipple engine?
2016-07-02T04:39:12Z RalphFurley2: the superior front-end framework
2016-07-02T04:39:23Z ben_vulpes: > superior
2016-07-02T04:39:25Z ben_vulpes: > javascript
2016-07-02T04:39:25Z RalphFurley2: i love DD-cup engines I think
2016-07-02T04:39:35Z RalphFurley2: fine, you hate JS
2016-07-02T04:39:36Z ben_vulpes: ahaha nobody knows why i'm laughing
2016-07-02T04:40:02Z RalphFurley2: I hate JS, but we want to make lots, and lots of money so we do JS
2016-07-02T04:40:12Z ben_vulpes: nah i hate all programmers
2016-07-02T04:40:14Z ben_vulpes: er
2016-07-02T04:40:16Z ben_vulpes: programming languages
2016-07-02T04:40:20Z ben_vulpes: freudian splat
2016-07-02T04:40:22Z RalphFurley2: Typescript is kindof nice, but not for a CL programer
2016-07-02T04:40:41Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, i just try to make good money
2016-07-02T04:40:58Z RalphFurley2: and front-end SPA pays the best
2016-07-02T04:41:10Z RalphFurley2: in the states..which means it pays the best in the world
2016-07-02T04:41:17Z ben_vulpes: mhm, scamming idiots is always good pay.
2016-07-02T04:41:29Z ben_vulpes: "this software good it browsers."
2016-07-02T04:41:30Z RalphFurley2: I'm scamming?
2016-07-02T04:41:38Z RalphFurley2: comeo one now?
2016-07-02T04:41:38Z ben_vulpes: selling js solutions is scamming customers.
2016-07-02T04:41:47Z RalphFurley2: you're an asshole
2016-07-02T04:41:51Z ben_vulpes: professional fraud.
2016-07-02T04:41:59Z RalphFurley2: how the fuck do you think these browser work?
2016-07-02T04:42:03Z ben_vulpes: "this polished stone is not at all a turd!"
2016-07-02T04:42:14Z RalphFurley2: bitter, bitter, backend boy
2016-07-02T04:42:26Z RalphFurley2: i hated the browser
2016-07-02T04:42:44Z RalphFurley2: why the fuck would you put a client app in the browser?!!!
2016-07-02T04:42:55Z RalphFurley2: 15 years ago
2016-07-02T04:43:19Z RalphFurley2: then we got Canvas and SVG in all modern browsers
2016-07-02T04:43:38Z ben_vulpes: and cross-browser compatibility isn't a nightmare or insanely expensive.
2016-07-02T04:43:39Z RalphFurley2: you can do great things in CL generating cool SVG
2016-07-02T04:43:54Z RalphFurley2: nope
2016-07-02T04:43:56Z RalphFurley2: not at all
2016-07-02T04:44:05Z RalphFurley2: only IE10+
2016-07-02T04:44:22Z ben_vulpes: not my experience.
2016-07-02T04:44:22Z RalphFurley2: i can do modern css too
2016-07-02T04:44:27Z RalphFurley2: flexbox
2016-07-02T04:44:38Z RalphFurley2: which is nice since we're programmers and not css jockeys:)
2016-07-02T04:45:18Z RalphFurley2: ben_vulpes, brother..you can sit on the backend fine
2016-07-02T04:45:39Z beach: OK, have fun guys.  I'll come back when the discussion is on topic.
2016-07-02T04:45:41Z RalphFurley2: the backend now is just a JSON pump from a database
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2016-07-02T04:45:58Z ben_vulpes: anyways my dinner is ready
2016-07-02T04:46:00Z ben_vulpes: nn RalphFurley2
2016-07-02T04:46:07Z ben_vulpes: may you feast on the lolz of your enemies
2016-07-02T04:46:09Z RalphFurley2: we fought:)
2016-07-02T04:46:14Z RalphFurley2: all good brother/sister!
2016-07-02T04:46:31Z RalphFurley2: good dinner
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2016-07-02T05:05:50Z mordocai: Anyone here use coleslaw? I'm wondering if there is any easy way to make the index.html a static page rather than the blog index (and then have blog index be a linked page in the sitenav)
2016-07-02T05:05:50Z minion: mordocai, memo from rumbler31: and it waits for you to speak next before giving you memos
2016-07-02T05:06:13Z mordocai: From what I can tell, it is hard coded somewhere that the home page is the blog index. Haven't dived in much yet though.
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2016-07-02T08:30:38Z beach: reb``: I ordered the book.  It is not exactly recent, but it may still have some good ideas about improving readability.
2016-07-02T08:30:56Z beach: reb``: Amazon says it is going to take a month or two to deliver it, though. :)
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2016-07-02T09:17:47Z aries_liuxueyang: hello,
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2016-07-02T09:28:25Z aries_liuxueyang: in common lisp, is there something like `set` in c++ STL?
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2016-07-02T09:31:00Z _death: aries_liuxueyang: you can use a hashtable with dummy value
2016-07-02T09:32:01Z aries_liuxueyang: ok,
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2016-07-02T09:33:04Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: Can you tell us what set in C++ STL does?
2016-07-02T09:33:52Z aries_liuxueyang: beach: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/set/set/ here is the documentation.
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2016-07-02T09:35:00Z aries_liuxueyang: beach: simply, "Internally, the elements in a set are always sorted" and I can insert or delete a value in log(n) time complexity.
2016-07-02T09:36:05Z Grue`: this perhaps? http://lisp-search.acceleration.net/html/binary-trees.html
2016-07-02T09:36:46Z beach: aries_liuxueyang: What comparison function do you want for the keys?
2016-07-02T09:37:04Z aries_liuxueyang: #'<
2016-07-02T09:37:41Z beach: Pretty much any balanced tree will work then.
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2016-07-02T09:37:57Z Grue`: see also http://cliki.net/data%20structure
2016-07-02T09:39:20Z aries_liuxueyang: beach, Grue` thanks a lot. ;-)
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2016-07-02T10:07:06Z schjetne: How does the Lisp community feel about Java-style hierarchal package names? E.g. it.bese.fiveam
2016-07-02T10:07:38Z schjetne: I'm thinking of introducing it in my client's next big refactoring, it seem bureaucratic, but it might make sense.
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2016-07-02T10:11:17Z phadthai: schjetne: I don't think it's the majority, but some use it
2016-07-02T10:11:34Z phadthai: i.e.
2016-07-02T10:11:36Z phadthai: 20:15 <pjb> It's in COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.UTILITY.
2016-07-02T10:12:42Z schjetne: I'd hate to have my software break because I happen to move to another country (presuming I use the ccTLD)
2016-07-02T10:12:55Z phadthai: I personally often use a similar but simpler hierarchy when naming symbols/functions
2016-07-02T10:13:28Z phadthai: which is only for instance object-method/operation
2016-07-02T10:14:11Z phadthai: i.e. instead of open-stream... stream-open
2016-07-02T10:15:12Z phadthai: interestingly that's a rarely used convention in java
2016-07-02T10:16:23Z schjetne: I think I'll make each subsystem into a separate ASDF system and just name them <company>.<product>.<subsystem> and use the same for package names
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2016-07-02T10:20:23Z schjetne: Having small systems that do one thing and do it well, which I can then compose into binaries with all the right features but none of the cruft
2016-07-02T10:22:19Z _death: may want to check package-inferred-system
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2016-07-02T10:36:15Z schjetne: _death: looking at it now
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2016-07-02T11:13:56Z schjetne: I think I'm inclined to want to explicitly define everything, I'm not too fond of languages that infer a lot from file system layout.
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2016-07-02T12:54:10Z aries_liuxueyang: http://lisp-search.acceleration.net/html/binary-trees.html in this page. MAKE-BINARY-TREE function's second argument PRED, "PRED specifies the ordering relation." what does it mean? what value can I assign to it? I read the source code, I guess it must be a function name. anyone knows? thanks. ;-)
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2016-07-02T12:58:45Z dim: hi
2016-07-02T12:58:54Z dim: is there something easy like sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address in CCL?
2016-07-02T13:04:10Z Grue`: aries_liuxueyang: probably the same type of comparison function as in #'sort
2016-07-02T13:04:14Z edgar-rft: aries_liuxueyang: to me this reads like (make-binary-tree :normal #'<)
2016-07-02T13:04:41Z Grue`: pred means predicate i.e. function taht returns true or false
2016-07-02T13:06:42Z aries_liuxueyang: but what does the :key key mean.
2016-07-02T13:07:27Z aries_liuxueyang: I thought &key TEST is #'<.. because "TEST is optional and, if given, specifies how to compare two keys for equality."
2016-07-02T13:08:19Z aries_liuxueyang: oh, TEST may be something like #'equal...
2016-07-02T13:09:01Z aries_liuxueyang: my English is so poor... ;-(
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2016-07-02T13:13:23Z edgar-rft: sort cons-cells by symbol-names in alphabetical order:
2016-07-02T13:13:23Z edgar-rft: (sort '((A . 3) (C . 1) (B . 2)) #'string< :key #'car) => ((A . 3) (B . 2) (C . 1))
2016-07-02T13:13:23Z edgar-rft: sort cons-cells by numbers in ascending order:
2016-07-02T13:13:23Z edgar-rft: (sort '((A . 3) (C . 1) (B . 2)) #'< :key #'cdr) => ((C . 1) (B . 2) (A . 3))
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2016-07-02T13:14:19Z aries_liuxueyang: edgar-rft, thank you very much.
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2016-07-02T13:15:42Z aries_liuxueyang: Is there some better documented library?
2016-07-02T13:16:13Z aries_liuxueyang: or some documents with examples.
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2016-07-02T13:19:04Z edgar-rft: The FSet libraray has implementations of balanced binary trees, here is a one-page tutorial: <https://common-lisp.net/project/fset/Site/FSet-Tutorial.html>
2016-07-02T13:19:44Z edgar-rft: The code is either here: <https://github.com/slburson/fset> but FSet also can be installed via Quicklisp
2016-07-02T13:20:11Z aries_liuxueyang: okay.
2016-07-02T13:21:07Z aries_liuxueyang: edgar-rft, I found that before. I will read that. thanks a lot.
2016-07-02T13:22:14Z edgar-rft: I don't know wether FSet is the best library for you, but it's the only binary-tree library I ever used :-)
2016-07-02T13:22:26Z aries_liuxueyang: yeah.
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2016-07-02T13:24:31Z Grue`: the problem with FSet is that it contains only immutable data structures so I'm not sure if its binary trees have necessary performance characteristics
2016-07-02T13:24:58Z beach: edgar-rft: You are not allowed to modify constant data.
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2016-07-02T13:41:52Z dim: is it possible to just print the :identity part of print-unreadable-object?
2016-07-02T13:43:58Z dim: trying (print-unreadable-object (node :type t :identity t))
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2016-07-02T15:06:05Z rme: dim: I don't know exactly what sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address does.  ccl::%address-of returns the address of a lisp object as an integer, but that's not a very useful thing, since the gc can move objects whenever it wants to.
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2016-07-02T15:07:22Z rme: dim: If you want to pass a pointer to lisp data to foreign code, you may want to look into ccl:make-heap-ivector, or possibly consider copying lisp data to stack-allocated foreign memory (allocated via ccl:rlet or ccl:%stack-block).
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2016-07-02T15:25:02Z John[Lisbeth]: What is happening when (- 1 2 3) => -4 ?
2016-07-02T15:25:35Z oleo_: that's ok
2016-07-02T15:26:07Z oleo_: aww wait
2016-07-02T15:26:09Z oleo_: no it's not ok
2016-07-02T15:26:21Z mejja: it is ok.
2016-07-02T15:26:41Z oleo_: ah yep
2016-07-02T15:26:44Z vktec: Is Scheme considered a dialect of Lisp? I've heard some people don't classify it as one.
2016-07-02T15:26:48Z oleo_: (1-2) == -1
2016-07-02T15:26:55Z oleo_: (-1 - 3) = -4
2016-07-02T15:27:19Z John[Lisbeth]: i see that makes sensr
2016-07-02T15:27:21Z John[Lisbeth]: ty
2016-07-02T15:28:51Z oleo_: try (- -1 -2 -3) and (- -1 2 3) and (+ 1 2 3)
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2016-07-02T15:29:32Z John[Lisbeth]: I understand it now
2016-07-02T15:29:36Z John[Lisbeth]: ty
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2016-07-02T17:49:14Z phoe_mezz: mezzano says hello
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2016-07-02T17:55:42Z lisp463: what's the difference between a symbol and string in lisp?
2016-07-02T17:56:40Z phoe_mezz: A string is, well, a string.
2016-07-02T17:56:46Z phoe_mezz: A symbol is an actual object.
2016-07-02T17:56:55Z phoe_mezz: Wait, let me google the proper file for you...
2016-07-02T17:57:33Z phoe_mezz: www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf
2016-07-02T17:57:55Z phoe_mezz: This one solved a real lot of questions what symbols are, at least for me.
2016-07-02T17:58:05Z phoe_mezz: Since symbols and packages are rather closely tied together.
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2016-07-02T17:58:51Z phoe_mezz: It's silly.
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2016-07-02T17:59:24Z rumbler31: also, this http://stevelosh.com/blog/2016/06/symbolic-computation/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+stevelosh+%28Steve+Losh%29
2016-07-02T17:59:25Z phoe_mezz: I'm solving other people's Lisp problems from an IRC client running on Mezzano.
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2016-07-02T17:59:49Z phoe_mezz: ^ yes, what rumbler31 said
2016-07-02T17:59:58Z rumbler31: i'm actually reading this right now
2016-07-02T18:00:13Z phoe_mezz: it's a very good article!
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2016-07-02T18:04:59Z phoe_mezz: Does anyone know what IP does the Mezzano take when running in the default VirtualBox?
2016-07-02T18:05:07Z phoe_mezz: I want to connect to its Swank.
2016-07-02T18:05:32Z rumbler31: well, thats more of a VirtualBox question
2016-07-02T18:05:52Z rumbler31: how is the vm guest network configured, on the virtualbox side
2016-07-02T18:06:12Z phoe_mezz: It is.
2016-07-02T18:06:17Z phoe_mezz: Like, uh, I'm IRCing from it right now.
2016-07-02T18:06:24Z phoe_mezz: So it's certainly connected.
2016-07-02T18:06:40Z phoe_mezz: I just don't know how to do the equivalent of an ifconfig on Mezzano.
2016-07-02T18:07:01Z rumbler31: no i don't mean is it, I mean how is it.  like is the network interface bridged through to the host, or natted
2016-07-02T18:07:02Z rumbler31: or
2016-07-02T18:07:09Z phoe_mezz: nat.
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2016-07-02T18:07:30Z rumbler31: oh i see
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2016-07-02T18:08:07Z rumbler31: you might be able to get details of the network interface from virtualbox itself
2016-07-02T18:08:11Z rumbler31: what is your host os?
2016-07-02T18:08:29Z phoe_mezz: debian sid
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2016-07-02T18:10:34Z rumbler31: so, you'll have to port forward from virtualbox to your vm
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2016-07-02T18:11:26Z rumbler31: so in
2016-07-02T18:12:32Z rumbler31: minion: memo for phoe_mezz: if your vm is configured to use nat, then virtualbox binary is acting as the nat between the vm and your host os interface.  you'll have to configure virtualbox to forward a new listen port on your host os to 4007 on the vm
2016-07-02T18:12:32Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe_mezz when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-07-02T18:14:28Z rumbler31: minion: memo for phoe_mezz: you can of course configure the vm net interface to use something like bridging, on windows this creates a separate virtual interface, as if you suddenly have another device sharing your host interface physical link.
2016-07-02T18:14:28Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe_mezz when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-07-02T18:22:26Z lisp463: in lisp, how would i go about looping through a list and counting occurences of a particular symbol?
2016-07-02T18:22:29Z beach: lisp463: A string is also an object, of course.  Strings and symbols differ in the operations that they can participate in.  A string is a vector which is an array, so the operations on arrays and vectors apply to strings.
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2016-07-02T18:23:09Z beach: lisp463: (count symbol list :test #'eq)
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2016-07-02T18:23:53Z rumbler31: lisp463: if your list is of symbols then its straightforward.  If your list is of strings that you need to convert to symbols, it takes an extra step
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2016-07-02T18:24:09Z beach: lisp463: Or (loop for element in list count (eq element symbol))
2016-07-02T18:24:46Z lisp463: would i need to define a new variable to keep track of the # of occurences?
2016-07-02T18:25:03Z beach: lisp463: Did you see any new variable in my solutions?
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2016-07-02T18:25:40Z lisp463: using loop & do functions i meant
2016-07-02T18:25:44Z rumbler31: lisp463: what exactly are you trying to do?
2016-07-02T18:26:00Z beach: lisp463: My second solution uses loop and there is no new variable.
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2016-07-02T18:26:29Z lisp463: how does lisp know what value to return then?
2016-07-02T18:26:43Z lisp463: I'm new to lisp, in case if you havent guessed :)
2016-07-02T18:26:47Z beach: lisp463: By the presence of the COUNT loop keyword.
2016-07-02T18:27:20Z rumbler31: loop abstracts the idea of iteration.  if you want to know more, PCL's chapeter on loop is a good start
2016-07-02T18:27:26Z rumbler31: with do, yes you're doing it yourself
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2016-07-02T18:28:26Z rumbler31: although you might find dolist slightly more convenient.  but even more convenient should be the count function, made specifically for this purpose
2016-07-02T18:29:49Z rumbler31: if you're new to lisp, PCL is a great start
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2016-07-02T18:39:18Z prolle: I would advice "Common Lisp: A gentle introduction to symbolic computation" myself, simply because there is exercice in there.
2016-07-02T18:39:28Z prolle: Exercice are far better than example
2016-07-02T18:39:43Z prolle: (there is example as well)
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2016-07-02T19:47:41Z John[Lisbeth]: why doesn't this work? http://sprunge.us/dISa
2016-07-02T19:48:27Z rumbler31: well... do you want the answer or do you want hints
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2016-07-02T19:48:44Z Carisius: long time i do not any lisp but you are returning nil, isnt it?
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2016-07-02T19:49:23Z Carisius: command not found: sbcl :(
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2016-07-02T19:49:54Z rumbler31: carisius: where did you install it
2016-07-02T19:49:56Z Carisius: that made me nostalgic
2016-07-02T19:50:01Z Carisius: I didn't
2016-07-02T19:50:31Z Carisius: I just noticed I do not have sbcl installed, so last time i lisped was far ago
2016-07-02T19:51:06Z rumbler31: John[Lisbeth]:  your function is returning the last form.  it computes number-p on its argument, then computes even-p on its arg, then returns ni
2016-07-02T19:51:08Z rumbler31: l
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2016-07-02T19:53:59Z John[Lisbeth]: I want it to cease computing and retutn nil when I give it a string
2016-07-02T19:54:34Z John[Lisbeth]: It works when I do it for other functions oike oddp and zerop
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2016-07-02T19:54:55Z Carisius: i think you miss a cond form
2016-07-02T19:55:10Z John[Lisbeth]: me?
2016-07-02T19:55:19Z Carisius: yes
2016-07-02T19:55:19Z rumbler31: yes
2016-07-02T19:55:27Z rumbler31: you don't have any flow control in there.
2016-07-02T19:55:32Z Carisius: https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~matuszek/LispText/lisp-cond.html
2016-07-02T19:56:33Z John[Lisbeth]: yeah I was missing my if ty
2016-07-02T19:56:46Z rumbler31: you'd need more than one
2016-07-02T19:57:20Z rumbler31: er nm
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2016-07-02T20:23:42Z John[Lisbeth]: hoe can I
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2016-07-02T20:24:12Z John[Lisbeth]: How can I do (< 1 2 3)?
2016-07-02T20:24:22Z John[Lisbeth]: Why does it take 3 args?
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2016-07-02T20:27:47Z rme: John[Lisbeth]: please see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm#LT
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2016-07-02T20:32:44Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: because it's more practical than (and (< 1 2) (< 2 3)).
2016-07-02T20:32:58Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: same as (+ 1 2 3) is more practican than (+ 1 (+ 2 3))
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2016-07-02T20:34:10Z raxr: what does this error mean: Argument X is not a NUMBER: NIL
2016-07-02T20:34:33Z raxr: argument x is not a number but is being handled like one?
2016-07-02T20:35:34Z rme: It seems to be saying that although X was expected to be a number, X is in fact NIL.
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2016-07-02T20:42:40Z phoe_krk: raxr: you fed a NIL to a function that expects a NUMBER
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2016-07-02T20:51:54Z pjb: raxr: also, possibly, you fed an argument to a function such as at some point it computed a NIL instead of a number and fed it that function expecting a number.
2016-07-02T20:52:26Z pjb: raxr: or possibly too, you wrote that function buggy so that it always computes a NIL to feed to the function expecting a number.
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2016-07-02T21:27:38Z froggey: phoe_krk: you need to configure virtualbox so it forwards the swank port out to the host, then you should be able to connect to it as if it was running on localhost
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2016-07-02T21:53:44Z Ralt: hi
2016-07-02T21:54:35Z Ralt: I was wondering if there's a way to map some byte vector directly into a struct
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2016-07-02T21:55:11Z Ralt: like in C, we can do `struct foo bar = (struct foo) some_memory;` and it'll work
2016-07-02T21:55:43Z Ralt: I have a struct (well, currently a class, but could be a struct) with a lot of fields, and I get a byte vector which I just need to map in it
2016-07-02T21:55:52Z Ralt: having to do every field manually sounds like a pain...
2016-07-02T21:55:56Z Ralt: maybe there's something?
2016-07-02T21:56:32Z Ralt: if I can loop through a class fields, maybe? (but then I have to worry about order)
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2016-07-02T21:58:03Z Grue`:  Ralt: structs can be vectors
2016-07-02T21:58:56Z Ralt: Grue`: what do you mean?
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2016-07-02T22:02:34Z Grue`: (defstruct (test-str (:type vector)) a b c d)
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2016-07-02T22:03:00Z Grue`: then to get 4th element of simple-vector vec, you call (test-str-d vec)
2016-07-02T22:03:27Z Ralt: and you can change the size of each field?
2016-07-02T22:03:30Z Grue`: it has to be simple-vector though, from what I understand
2016-07-02T22:04:38Z Ralt: I'm going to search the doc about this, thanks!
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2016-07-02T22:06:07Z Grue`: if you want each slot to combine several array cells somehow, it's probably not possible
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2016-07-02T22:06:52Z Ralt: there's not much point then, a simple deftype is enough in this case, no? am I missing something?
2016-07-02T22:08:53Z Grue`: the point is to be able to have named accessors to nth element of list/vector instead of (elt foo n)
2016-07-02T22:09:05Z Ralt: I see
2016-07-02T22:09:12Z Grue`: have you read http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-parsing-binary-files.html
2016-07-02T22:09:23Z Ralt: hm, I did, a long time ago
2016-07-02T22:09:27Z Grue`: it has some macros that might be useful
2016-07-02T22:09:29Z Ralt: and it seems relevant, thanks
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2016-07-02T22:54:24Z raxr: what is the best to keep track of how many times a recursive function calls itself?
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2016-07-02T23:13:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: raxr: jThe simplest way is to add an optional argument that increments every time it calls itself
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2016-07-02T23:15:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can then put the recursive part in a (LABELS) form to hide the counter.
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2016-07-02T23:16:07Z raxr: how do i add an optional parameter to a function and set its default value
2016-07-02T23:17:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: (defun my-function (a b &optional (counter 0)) ...)
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2016-07-02T23:18:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, it might be better to do (defun my-function (a b) (labels ((_inner (a b &optional (counter 0))...)) (_inner a b))
2016-07-02T23:19:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you're just doing this for debug purposes, you might look at trace
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2016-07-02T23:19:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs trace
2016-07-02T23:19:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm
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2016-07-03T00:09:13Z raxr: what does this error mean: during macroexpansion of (LOOP FOR X ...). Use *BREAK-ON-SIGNALS* to intercept ?
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2016-07-03T00:10:27Z Quadrescence: raxr, your LOOP is probably malformed
2016-07-03T00:14:48Z raxr: in lisp is there such a thing as an explicit return statement?
2016-07-03T00:15:40Z Quadrescence: raxr, RETURN-FROM and RETURN
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2016-07-03T00:19:17Z phadthai: tagbody, although rarely used in high level code, can also allow arbitrary goto-style flow if it can be useful (it's usually used by higher level loop macros)...  and you can also have functions that return nothing, using (values)
2016-07-03T00:21:12Z phadthai: raxr: if necessary, you can macroexpand that loop too
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2016-07-03T00:21:45Z phadthai: to see what really occurs inside (assuming it's parsable by the loop macro, though :)
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2016-07-03T00:25:04Z raxr: i fixed the error but my function is returning nil when it should be returning a list. I'm passing in an optional parameter with default value of empty list and in the program that empty list gets values appended to it inside a do block while looping through a non-empty list. i then return the newly created list. the calls to loop and return are inside a progn function. Why is the program returning nil?
2016-07-03T00:26:19Z raxr: I removed the progn and explicit return statement, still returning NIL
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2016-07-03T00:27:30Z phadthai: hmm some list modifications can be destructive, but I can't confirm that's what's happening
2016-07-03T00:28:07Z Quadrescence: raxr, it's best to just paste code (or maybe i missed it)
2016-07-03T00:29:41Z raxr: (defun iter (lst &optional (newlst '()) )   (loop for x in lst      do (append newlst (+ x (position x lst :test #'equal)))   ) )
2016-07-03T00:29:46Z raxr: newlst is what I want to return
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2016-07-03T00:30:25Z Quadrescence: raxr, (setf newlist (append newlist ...))
2016-07-03T00:30:55Z Quadrescence: also append takes lists, so you probably want (append newlist (list (+ x ...
2016-07-03T00:32:08Z Quadrescence: (loop :for x :in lst :do (setf newlst (append newlst (list (+ x (position x lst :test 'equal))))) :finally (return newlst))
2016-07-03T00:32:43Z phadthai: this is a case where append is destructive and you must use its return value
2016-07-03T00:32:53Z phadthai: as Quadrescence suggests
2016-07-03T00:33:18Z raxr: any alternative to append I can use?
2016-07-03T00:33:31Z phadthai: (it can modify cons cells for performance, rather than copying all elements to a new list)
2016-07-03T00:34:16Z phadthai: concatenate copies non-destructively if I remember
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2016-07-03T00:34:46Z phadthai: you still need to use its result, which is a new sequence
2016-07-03T00:34:54Z Quadrescence: append is non-destruction IIRC
2016-07-03T00:34:58Z Quadrescence: NCONC is destructive
2016-07-03T00:35:00Z phadthai: aah nconc would be
2016-07-03T00:35:01Z phadthai: yes
2016-07-03T00:35:15Z Quadrescence: even with NCONC you still want to SETF
2016-07-03T00:35:29Z phadthai: even more so
2016-07-03T00:36:11Z raxr: (defun iter (lst &optional (newlst '()) )   (loop for x in lst      do (setf newlst (append newlst (list (+ x (position x lst :test #'equal)))))   ) )
2016-07-03T00:36:15Z raxr: still returning NIL
2016-07-03T00:37:09Z Quadrescence: look at what I wrote
2016-07-03T00:37:21Z Quadrescence: and notice the final  :finally (return newlst)
2016-07-03T00:37:25Z edgar-rft: hint: there are :append and :nconc LOOP keywords that save you the SETF
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2016-07-03T00:40:12Z raxr: finally is part of the loop macro?
2016-07-03T00:40:57Z Quadrescence: yes
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2016-07-03T00:41:10Z pierpa: raxr: you can't learn CL by tryinf things at random
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2016-07-03T01:09:11Z Fare: NCONC rule #1: never use NCONC
2016-07-03T01:09:43Z Fare: if you're using NCONC, you're doing it wrong.
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2016-07-03T01:14:19Z John[Lisbeth]: what separates a lisp from something that is not a lisp?
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2016-07-03T01:16:32Z adlai: anybody here familiar with cl-collide?
2016-07-03T01:21:04Z Fare: John[Lisbeth], I would say homoiconicity and metaprogramming
2016-07-03T01:23:12Z John[Lisbeth]: I will google those. Another way to phrase my question is how does someone go about proving that a language is a lisp.
2016-07-03T01:25:01Z rszeno if somebody pretend that is lisp then will have some proves
2016-07-03T01:28:02Z rszeno: adlai, can you provide a link to cl-collide?
2016-07-03T01:30:07Z rszeno I found byulparan github
2016-07-03T01:39:09Z adlai: rszeno: yep that's the one. I get an error after the defsynth example in the readme: exception in GraphDef_Recv: UGen 'Control' not installed.
2016-07-03T01:39:17Z Fare: John[Lisbeth], I'd say that if the syntax of programs is represented with recursive list data structures, it's a Lisp.
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2016-07-03T03:51:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-03T03:54:55Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: There is no consensus when it comes to the definition of "Lisp" or "a Lisp".  There is a lot of wasted energy here between people who argue whether some language is or is not a Lisp.
2016-07-03T03:54:57Z beach: The disagreement comes from their differences in what they consider required for a language to be "a Lisp".  But instead of recognizing that difference, they keep arguing.  I guess perhaps they just like to argue.
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2016-07-03T03:58:02Z John[Lisbeth]: Well would you say c is a lisp?
2016-07-03T03:58:28Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: What I say is not important.  Like I said, there is no consensus.
2016-07-03T03:58:55Z John[Lisbeth]: So then some would and could validly say that c is a lisp.
2016-07-03T03:59:04Z Bike: there's basically no criteria to validate a definition
2016-07-03T03:59:14Z John[Lisbeth]: What about lambda calculus?
2016-07-03T03:59:20Z Bike: i think you're missing the point
2016-07-03T03:59:21Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: People are free to say what they want.
2016-07-03T03:59:33Z John[Lisbeth]: Bike: perhaps
2016-07-03T03:59:55Z Bike: listen, i'm a biologist. there are huge arguments over what a "species" is. it's sort of silly, but also sort of important because it ties into evolutionary concerns and data
2016-07-03T03:59:59Z Bike: with lisp there is not even that
2016-07-03T04:00:03Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Right now you are engaging in the very type of conversation that I just said is a complete waste of time because there is no consensus.
2016-07-03T04:00:21Z Bike: so everybody just says whatever they feel is right, and because everyone is using unspoken non-criteria it's pointless
2016-07-03T04:00:41Z beach: Exactly.
2016-07-03T04:01:18Z John[Lisbeth]: So it is a myth then that something can or can not be a lisp.
2016-07-03T04:01:34Z beach: And then there is this other phenomenon here.  Anybody who feels qualified to design a new programming language will typically come to #lisp because there is an active exchange here, so they feel compelled to argue that their new language is "a Lisp".
2016-07-03T04:01:37Z John[Lisbeth]: Lisp is just a word designed to describe a family of programming languages
2016-07-03T04:02:18Z John[Lisbeth]: Do you think that's why I've come here? I've given up writing a language a long time ago.
2016-07-03T04:02:40Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: No, I don't think that is why you came here.
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2016-07-03T04:03:14Z John[Lisbeth]: If I write a compiler I will probably make it closed source so that it can not spread into a language.
2016-07-03T04:04:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I am simply curious about the differences between languages from the lisp family and languages not from the lisp family, because I meet alot of people who tell me that I could never achieve anythign meaningful in lisp.
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2016-07-03T04:04:50Z John[Lisbeth]: They say lisp can not do what c can do or be as fast as c, but other people tell me it can.
2016-07-03T04:05:03Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: I take a very pragmatic approach, and I know others here do as well.  I define "a Lisp" to be "an implementation of Common Lisp".  That way it is very precisely defined.
2016-07-03T04:05:25Z John[Lisbeth]: There are lisps that predate lisp, though.
2016-07-03T04:05:28Z John[Lisbeth]: I mean predate cl
2016-07-03T04:05:37Z beach: Whatever.
2016-07-03T04:05:55Z Bike: people having weird ideas is separate from definitions, anyway.
2016-07-03T04:06:08Z John[Lisbeth]: Clearly lisp allows for things which are possible in c but would be very difficult to implement modify and debug
2016-07-03T04:06:24Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: You can never argue with people like that, simply because they are not out to find the truth.
2016-07-03T04:06:38Z John[Lisbeth]: But that means most of the work force will not hire me.
2016-07-03T04:06:51Z Bike: well, you can learn to use more than one system, for one
2016-07-03T04:07:08Z John[Lisbeth]: I feel like if I don't spend time in common lisp then I might as well have never lived at all.
2016-07-03T04:07:25Z Bike: that seems extreme
2016-07-03T04:08:06Z John[Lisbeth]: Well that's how I feel.
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2016-07-03T04:08:13Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Sometimes there are some hard choices that one has to make in life.
2016-07-03T04:09:16Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: For many employers, you can get away with telling them what they want to hear, and then do what you want anyway.
2016-07-03T04:09:17Z John[Lisbeth]: I feel like I personally have to fight for open source/bsd license software tooth and nail.
2016-07-03T04:09:45Z John[Lisbeth]: Emacs makes it somewhat less bad
2016-07-03T04:09:55Z John[Lisbeth]: Because you escape syntax hell basically
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2016-07-03T04:12:55Z edgar-rft: John[Lisbeth]: A programming language is only a Lisp when people cannot agree wether it's a Lisp. When people can agree that C is not a Lisp, then C is not a Lisp because a) people can agree, and b) it's not a Lisp.
2016-07-03T04:13:33Z edgar-rft: ...or at least that's what I would tell in such situations
2016-07-03T04:13:48Z Quadrescence: C can't be a lisp because C is compiled and Lisp is slow~
2016-07-03T04:18:29Z edgar-rft: For me the most important characteristic of a Lisp is that Lisp source code (written as lists) is a Lisp data type.
2016-07-03T04:18:54Z beach: Seriously?  Are we really going to discuss this?
2016-07-03T04:19:28Z Quadrescence: ;-)
2016-07-03T04:20:44Z edgar-rft: No.
2016-07-03T04:20:52Z beach: Thanks.
2016-07-03T04:21:27Z Quadrescence: beach, have you thought about having fine-grained declaration support in SICL
2016-07-03T04:22:05Z Quadrescence: beach, one thing I have issues with in CL is that SPEED,SAFETY,DEBUG,SPACE have all of these implementation-dependent non-memorable rules associated with them
2016-07-03T04:22:25Z Quadrescence: every time i look something up it feels like i have to solve a discrete optimization problem to get the behavior i want
2016-07-03T04:23:19Z beach: Quadrescence: For Cleavir, I will have an implementation-specific method on some generic function that will translate those into a larger set of fine-grained compilation parameters.
2016-07-03T04:23:43Z beach: But whether those parameters are available as declarations is up to the implementation as well.
2016-07-03T04:23:48Z Quadrescence: (my canonical example is wanting TCE for a particular function without importing the kitchen sink of optimizations)
2016-07-03T04:23:51Z beach: For SICL, I haven't given it much thought.
2016-07-03T04:24:09Z beach: Yes, something like that is definitely needed.
2016-07-03T04:24:36Z beach: It might be a good idea to make them available as declarations in SICL.
2016-07-03T04:25:11Z John[Lisbeth]: I think really lisp is just the current version of a family of languages/compilers
2016-07-03T04:25:17Z Quadrescence: It would be nice if there was a (defun expand-declarations (speed safety debug ...) ...) which just expanded into the implementation-dependent set of fine-grained "optimizations" or whatever you want to call them
2016-07-03T04:25:40Z John[Lisbeth]: and you could in theory slowly modidy a c compiler until it could do things lisp could do and then it coudl quiclky adopt the features of lisps. And this could be done with any language.
2016-07-03T04:25:42Z Quadrescence: function/method/whatever
2016-07-03T04:25:47Z John[Lisbeth]: And the only limitation is the imagination of the creators of the compiler.
2016-07-03T04:26:25Z beach: Quadrescence: For Cleavir, I don't want to impose on an implementation that those parameters be available as declarations.  That is up to the implementation.
2016-07-03T04:26:37Z beach: Quadrescence: But for SICL, I can decide myself. :)
2016-07-03T04:26:43Z Quadrescence: Yes right
2016-07-03T04:30:19Z John[Lisbeth]: In theory perl could slowly evolve over time to become lisp, and perl can already do lispy things.
2016-07-03T04:30:46Z John[Lisbeth]: What I am trying to measure in my head now is whether or not common lisp is better than c.
2016-07-03T04:31:12Z Bike: establish criteria by which to make decisions
2016-07-03T04:32:07Z John[Lisbeth]: It's hard to quantify it. It's from 3 years of reading random articles and talking to random people in irc and interviewing them about their languages.
2016-07-03T04:32:15Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: If only it were as simple as that.  There is no linear objective "better than" relation that can be applied to programming languages.  That is why there is endless debates with undefined terminology.
2016-07-03T04:32:37Z John[Lisbeth]: It's hard for me to accept that common lisp is not better.
2016-07-03T04:32:57Z John[Lisbeth]: What I am interested in is the longevity of code.
2016-07-03T04:32:59Z Bike: but you don't even know what "better" means!
2016-07-03T04:33:12Z John[Lisbeth]: I am studying the possibility of making code which will run 40 years from now.
2016-07-03T04:33:23Z John[Lisbeth]: or 40,000 years from now.
2016-07-03T04:33:25Z John[Lisbeth]: or on an alien computer
2016-07-03T04:33:55Z Bike: you should start with considering things like whether they will use digital computers or a global clock
2016-07-03T04:34:45Z beach: Quadrescence: What I have done so far in Cleavir is that I have a class called OPTIMIZE-QUALITIES and another class called COMPILATION-PARAMETERS (or something like that) and a generic function that creates initargs to create an instance of the second one.
2016-07-03T04:34:47Z beach: That generic function uses the APPEND method combination with MOST-SPECIFIC-FIRST.  That way, I can establish reasonable defaults, but the implementation can override all aspects of it, such as defining subclasses and modifying the default without too much work.
2016-07-03T04:35:11Z Quadrescence: makes sense
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2016-07-03T04:36:40Z beach: Quadrescence: The implementation can define declarations that alter the compilation parameters, or they can invent new AST types that temporarily alter it in the scope of the body of that AST.
2016-07-03T04:37:16Z phf: does anybody know how to enable an equivalent of autodoc in lispworks. i.e. get the editor to show function arguments of the current function in the minibuffer
2016-07-03T04:37:30Z Quadrescence: use slime
2016-07-03T04:37:42Z Quadrescence: oops sorry that was a terrible answer, i didn't process the question
2016-07-03T04:38:34Z phf was about to go ballistic
2016-07-03T04:39:27Z phf: i might end up doing that anyway, but i'm trying to explore the native features for now.
2016-07-03T04:40:14Z Quadrescence: lispworks with slime works pretty well, if you make a console image
2016-07-03T04:41:01Z Quadrescence: the only negative bit is that *TERMINAL-IO* doesn't support unicode, so beware of getting an error in Lisp code that contains unicode characters that gets (attempted to) printed in the error
2016-07-03T04:41:01Z phf: does it still CAPI? that's the main reason i'm using it
2016-07-03T04:41:55Z phf: i'd imagine a console image on mac wouldn't capi, since mac wants you to have complete application bundle
2016-07-03T04:43:10Z Quadrescence: phf, CAPI still works fine, but there's a bug/issue with emacs taking the focus of a window, at least on mac
2016-07-03T04:43:16Z Quadrescence: so there are occasional bugs there
2016-07-03T04:43:32Z Quadrescence: e.g., mouse wheel events get sent to emacs, not the CAPI window
2016-07-03T04:43:48Z Quadrescence: phf, console image works perfectly fine on mac
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2016-07-03T04:44:34Z phf: well, i remembered about weitz's ls-add-ons package, which has "insert space and show args" command
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2016-07-03T09:32:28Z Grue`: "Fare: if you're using NCONC, you're doing it wrong." I probably use it more than append...
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2016-07-03T10:50:57Z phoe_krk: What is the proper/recommended way to structure one's Lisp program when writing one in an OO way?
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2016-07-03T10:51:35Z phoe_krk: I found myself subconsciously trying to implement a Java-style interface in Lisp and I wonder if I can do better.
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2016-07-03T10:56:08Z schjetne: I rarely follow a particular pattern, but sometimes I like to put all the generic functions in one neat file defining the interface, and then implementing the classes and methods elsewhere.
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2016-07-03T10:57:44Z phoe_krk: schjetne: I wanted to do the same and I need help with this.
2016-07-03T10:58:07Z phoe_krk: I want to (defgeneric send (message recipient)).
2016-07-03T10:58:18Z phoe_krk: But at the same time I want to declare the possible recipients somewhere nearby.
2016-07-03T10:58:33Z phoe_krk: I can't DEFMETHOD because this requires an implementation in the same place.
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2016-07-03T11:00:22Z schjetne: You mean you're using multiple dispatch and don't know whether to define the methods near the message classes or the recipient classes?
2016-07-03T11:00:32Z phoe_krk: No no.
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2016-07-03T11:00:53Z phoe_krk: I'm using multiple dispatch and I want to note the possibilities somewhere nearby the defgeneric.
2016-07-03T11:00:57Z Grue`: it's all in the same image in Lisp, it doesn't matter in which file everything is located
2016-07-03T11:01:20Z phoe_krk: Grue`: it's not my issue, it's the issue in how I should structure my code.
2016-07-03T11:01:40Z Grue`: defgeneric can't possibly know the possibilities, it's up to the objects to implement the methods
2016-07-03T11:02:01Z phoe_krk: I'm doing way too much Java.
2016-07-03T11:02:17Z Grue`: maybe someone else who uses your code will add their own methods
2016-07-03T11:02:40Z schjetne: Maybe note it in the docstrings for the generic functions?
2016-07-03T11:03:37Z phoe_krk: schjetne: sounds good.
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2016-07-03T11:04:12Z phoe_krk: One more question - does the specialization on all Ts *always* take the bottom of the method precedence list?
2016-07-03T11:04:33Z phoe_krk: Also, what's the MOP function to see that list?
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2016-07-03T11:20:44Z schjetne: phoe_krk: I'm afraid I don't have a good answer off the top of my head. I saw a neat diagram of the method dispatch rules somewhere, I wish I could remember where.
2016-07-03T11:21:30Z phoe_krk: schjetne: okay. Thanks.
2016-07-03T11:22:09Z phoe_krk: I'll reread http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html
2016-07-03T11:22:59Z schjetne: Yeah, that's where I usually go for a refresher when I need to use one of the more unusual method combinations
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2016-07-03T11:25:06Z Grue`: clhs compute-applicable-methods
2016-07-03T11:25:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comput.htm
2016-07-03T11:25:14Z Grue`: it's not even MOP
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2016-07-03T11:30:21Z schjetne: I'm sitting here with a ~2GB dataset, I wonder if I dare pitching the idea of keeping it all in memory in a Lisp image instead of the industry best practice of blowing the entire project budget on an Oracle license
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2016-07-03T11:51:27Z edgar-rft: schnetje: Just simply send all the budget to me. You will get nothing except that you'll know *exactly* why your project doesn't work. This will save you *lots* of useless debugging.
2016-07-03T11:52:33Z _death: 2gb is pretty small
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2016-07-03T12:01:13Z ym: There is an example in "Lisp Recipes" book on 3rd page: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319748
2016-07-03T12:01:33Z ym: I don't get it. Is symbol foo really created?
2016-07-03T12:01:45Z ym: I thought quote is reader macro.
2016-07-03T12:02:25Z ym: Does it created but not interned?
2016-07-03T12:02:35Z Grue`: created and interned
2016-07-03T12:05:13Z _death: the expression gets read; the quote read macro expands into (quote foo), the reader then encounters "foo" and interns a symbol with the name "FOO" (assuming the default readtable case, :upcase)
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2016-07-03T12:06:30Z _death: (well, the quote read macro actually invokes the reader to read the next expression, which then causes the reader to intern it)
2016-07-03T12:06:56Z phoe_krk: I just created a bad Lisp joke
2016-07-03T12:07:07Z phoe_krk: (defvar *foo* 'updog)
2016-07-03T12:07:15Z phoe_krk: so someone else may (describe 'updog)
2016-07-03T12:08:36Z ym: Got it, thanks.
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2016-07-03T12:32:09Z schjetne: I wonder where QPX keeps all the flight data. Maybe they went the in-memory storage route too.
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2016-07-03T12:43:18Z schjetne: beach: I looked at Clobber as we talked about at ELS, and I like the concept, especially not having to worry about serialization of snapshots not staying valid as implementation changes. But I'd be paranoid of any transaction in the log going missing or getting out of order and ruining the whole thing.
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2016-07-03T12:51:16Z phoe_krk: Is there a variant of DEFGENERIC that errors if a generic function of the same name already exists?
2016-07-03T12:52:05Z phoe_krk: Or do I need to write one myself? It seems simple enough.
2016-07-03T12:52:08Z pjb: the later.
2016-07-03T12:52:17Z phoe_krk: Okay.
2016-07-03T12:55:51Z Grue`: you aren't planning to ever reload your code?
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2016-07-03T12:58:37Z phoe_krk: Grue`: right. But I'm trying to create a framework that allows for a bit more flexibility than the usual defgeneric/defmethod.
2016-07-03T12:59:04Z phoe_krk: I'm still struggling with how to define what and how my program should be doing inside, that internal protocol as beach calls it.
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2016-07-03T13:17:50Z phoe_krk: (defmethod foo)
2016-07-03T13:17:54Z phoe_krk: I'm surprised this works
2016-07-03T13:19:00Z phoe_krk: At least on SBCL.
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2016-07-03T13:51:29Z beach: schjetne: Sure, for a particular idea, there are always situations where it won't work.  And most of the time, those situations are not explicitly indicated.
2016-07-03T13:52:52Z beach: schjetne: One such example would be in a traditional database system to carefully write to disk in the right order, only to discover that the disk controller reorganized it and then had a power cut.
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2016-07-03T13:57:51Z shka_: hi all
2016-07-03T13:57:57Z shka_: i'm writing hash function
2016-07-03T13:58:04Z beach: Hello shka.
2016-07-03T13:58:11Z shka_: beach: hi, how are you?
2016-07-03T13:58:16Z shka_: i was wondering
2016-07-03T13:58:27Z shka_: how can i allow overflows
2016-07-03T13:58:32Z beach: I am fine, thanks.
2016-07-03T14:00:36Z shka_: i'm under impression that ash will promote fixnum to integer if result wont fit into fixnum
2016-07-03T14:00:40Z shka_: is that correct?
2016-07-03T14:01:23Z beach: Yes.
2016-07-03T14:01:40Z beach: clhs mod
2016-07-03T14:01:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_mod.htm
2016-07-03T14:02:08Z shka_: i would want to allow overflows
2016-07-03T14:02:28Z shka_: those are harmless in my function
2016-07-03T14:02:49Z shka_: is there any obvious way to do it?
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2016-07-03T14:19:23Z schjetne: beach: I'm considering BKNR for my user data which has both snapshots and transaction logging, and the aforementioned ~2GB of data can be loaded at compile time, because it only changes on rare but predictable occasions, no persistence (beyond the image itself) is necessary.
2016-07-03T14:19:45Z schjetne: I see there are virtual machines with memory to the order of terabytes available nowadays
2016-07-03T14:20:33Z beach: I would go for it.
2016-07-03T14:21:12Z beach: It would take a fraction of the time to implement compared to using a relational database, so in the worst case, you will know why it didn't work with little effort.
2016-07-03T14:21:23Z schjetne: If I switch from Elasticsearch to Montezuma for indexing deployment would be dead simple, everything in a Lisp image.
2016-07-03T14:22:18Z beach: I would say try it out.
2016-07-03T14:22:25Z beach: And I would love to here how it went.
2016-07-03T14:22:50Z schjetne: I'll keep you posted.
2016-07-03T14:23:00Z beach: Thanks.
2016-07-03T14:23:14Z beach: Exactly the kind of stuff I would have done myself.  That is why I am interested.
2016-07-03T14:23:28Z schjetne: I'd better keep it under wraps in case any Oracle (or Franz for that matter) salesmen are listening around the corner
2016-07-03T14:25:36Z beach: Yes, be careful.  Always a good idea.
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2016-07-03T14:42:48Z shka_: do we have reasonable common qt tutorial anywhere?
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2016-07-03T15:27:07Z Xach_: So cool
2016-07-03T15:27:40Z fe[nl]ix: Xach_: what ?
2016-07-03T15:27:53Z Xach_: The summer of hacking!
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2016-07-03T15:28:35Z schjetne: Indeed, only I've hacked mostly grass and weeds this summer
2016-07-03T15:28:45Z schjetne: And dirt
2016-07-03T15:29:33Z Xach_: fe[nl]ix: do you have any control over https://github.com/archimag/restas/issues/41#issuecomment-229744570
2016-07-03T15:29:36Z Xach_: err
2016-07-03T15:29:51Z Xach_: fe[nl]ix: https://common-lisp.net/project/fiveam/files/fiveam-latest.tar.gz ? If so, should it be updated?
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2016-07-03T15:31:55Z dim: schjetne: for me it's not the amount of data but the need for transactions (concurrent edits of it) that drives the choice towards a relational database (my choice is PostgreSQL) ; or the advantage of having a proper data structure easy to discover/introspect and a powerful query language (SQL is awesome to have)
2016-07-03T15:32:31Z fe[nl]ix: Xach_: I would prefer if you switched to github releases
2016-07-03T15:32:42Z dim: if you have (mostly)static data without any concurrent updating and easy to hard-code queries, then it might be so much easier to handle it all in memory as Lisp data structures with a proper API on top of it
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2016-07-03T15:34:06Z schjetne: Yes, that's pretty much the case in my application.
2016-07-03T15:34:24Z schjetne: First and foremost I need speed while traversing graphs
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2016-07-03T15:40:16Z Xach_: fe[nl]ix: ok, I can easily do that.
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2016-07-03T15:54:33Z John[Lisbeth]: why does (cons 'A 'B) => (A . B) and not (A B)?
2016-07-03T15:56:06Z Bike: because (a b) is short for (a . (b . nil)), i.e. the product of (cons 'a (cons 'b nil))
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2016-07-03T16:01:53Z fe[nl]ix: Xach_: thanks
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2016-07-03T17:43:09Z beach: Bike: Am I the only one who finds the silence of John[Lisbeth] after being helped as disturbing?  Not a single "thanks", "I see", "can you explain some more", or even "I'll contemplate what you said later when I have time".  Just silence.
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2016-07-03T17:50:11Z Bike: i'm pretty desensitized. on irc i run into a lot of people who will start a conversation and then just leave in the middle of it, and it's weird, but there's not much i can do
2016-07-03T17:50:57Z beach: I see.  Well, leaving in the middle of a conversation can happen.  But in this case it is not only systematic, it is also immediately after having asked a question.
2016-07-03T17:52:52Z beach: But sure, not much to do about it.
2016-07-03T17:54:08Z phadthai: ms deskhelp irc-relay bot? :)
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2016-07-03T17:55:16Z phadthai: s/deskhelp/helpdesk/
2016-07-03T17:57:43Z beach: phadthai: Not sure what you mean, but this kind of behavior suggests that the person somehow thinks that people are paid to help, or otherwise obliged to do it, maybe as community service or something.  If that were the case, then sure, no reason to thank them or otherwise acknowledge their assistance.
2016-07-03T17:57:54Z phadthai: but jokes aside, I also see that type of asking-leaving on other tech channels
2016-07-03T17:58:11Z phadthai: beach: that's possible, it's like a type of "leeching"
2016-07-03T17:58:13Z beach: I am willing to believe that #lisp is not unique.
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2016-07-03T18:48:05Z pjb: beach: some people don't know yet irc etiquette.  What's unfortunate, is that some never learn it.
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2016-07-03T18:48:33Z Cthulhux: "irc etiquette"
2016-07-03T18:48:53Z Cthulhux: as if you should behave differently on irc than on e-mail, usenet and stupid web forums
2016-07-03T18:49:06Z pjb: Also, we can always assume communication problems: some use irc clients in browsers, and there it's easy to close a tab, like a web tab.
2016-07-03T18:49:06Z Cthulhux: rule no. 1: don't be an annoying dick.
2016-07-03T18:49:09Z Cthulhux: rule no. 2: -
2016-07-03T18:49:10Z Cthulhux: :-)
2016-07-03T18:49:31Z pjb: Cthulhux: granted; what I meant was that there was variants for the various media.
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2016-07-03T18:50:10Z Cthulhux: yep, i've read some "web forum etiquettes" over the last few years. three screen pages which can be summarized as "don't be an annoying dick"
2016-07-03T18:50:21Z Cthulhux: the web seems to invite to talk too much.
2016-07-03T18:50:39Z pjb: But the tools they use is also a big factor.  At work, they expect you to set your answers in email in a different color!  This is because they're using Microsoft MUA that prevents the usual '> '* quotation prefix and that doesn't set the various levels of answer in different colors automatically.
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2016-07-03T18:51:04Z Cthulhux: e-mail is a text medium. colors don't belong there.
2016-07-03T18:51:29Z pjb: Indeed. But not when you use deficient software like Microsoft's.
2016-07-03T18:52:29Z Cthulhux: i have to use outlook at work. the problem is that all of my colleagues use outlook too, and so do all of our customers
2016-07-03T18:52:37Z Cthulhux: so there is no excuse not to write HTML mail :(
2016-07-03T18:52:52Z Cthulhux: the web has spoiled so many things.
2016-07-03T18:56:39Z pjb: yep.
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2016-07-03T20:46:58Z p_l: fun fact: about the only thing that can be laid mostly at Outlook's feet is top-posting. Non-text encoding... not really, except maybe for those who ended up sending word-formatted email due to abuse of OLE mechanism
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2016-07-03T21:10:00Z Lord_Nightmare: i read somewhere that there are certain fairly stressful lisp programs which cause crashes on one of CMUCL, SBCL and not the other; have people done some deep investigation into this to figure out what the cause is?
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2016-07-03T21:38:47Z phoe_krk: Lord_Nightmare: it's impossible to generalize
2016-07-03T21:39:05Z phoe_krk: each of them is a case study on its own.
2016-07-03T21:39:48Z phoe_krk: but also it's hard for me to look any information on my own without the information which programs were these. Do you have a link nearby?
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2016-07-03T22:04:47Z Lord_Nightmare: phoe_krk: checking... having trouble finding the message i saw before
2016-07-03T22:05:44Z |3b| thinks it shouldn't take "deep investigation" to determine SBCL and CMUCL have diverged since the fork, in everything from compiler to libs to defaults
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2016-07-03T22:07:08Z |3b|: might even be more rare to find bugs old enough to be in the shared code :)
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2016-07-03T22:26:14Z Lord_Nightmare: I'm aware they diverged, its just older code like maxima which predates the fork shouldn't fail on one and work on the other
2016-07-03T22:33:45Z PuercoPop: why it shouldn't? AFAIK maxima is not written in portable CL
2016-07-03T22:34:41Z PuercoPop: (for this meaning of portable http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#portable)
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2016-07-03T23:20:58Z fe[nl]ix: PuercoPop: it works on my laptop, so it's portable
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2016-07-03T23:35:08Z Fare: Does it work on a Compaq Portable?
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2016-07-03T23:52:37Z |3b|: Lord_Nightmare: old code is still compiled by the (diverged) compiler and uses the (diverged) libs, GC, etc in the runtime, so it might hit any new bugs in the code, or old bugs exposed by unrelated fixes, or run into problems caused by different defaults (like GC tuning or heap size or whatever)
2016-07-03T23:53:33Z |3b|: or it could have bugs that are only visible due to improvements in one or the other compiler/libs/etc
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2016-07-04T02:11:47Z John[Lisbeth]: It's hard to quantify what would make a language "better" in my personal opinion. I know that my search for the optimum language lead me to lisp, but it is hard for me to think back and trace the decisions I made slowly along the way the last 3 years that lead to it.
2016-07-04T02:12:44Z John[Lisbeth]: I started with C++, and I wanted something different, and I eventually became interested in shell scripting because shell commands where what I was commonly being asked to use to interface with my computer on Linux, so I naturally thought of Bash as my computer's language.
2016-07-04T02:13:19Z John[Lisbeth]: Studying bash lead me to studying the Unix philosophy of modularity, which lead me to want to start programming by piping commands and files together in a long chain to achieve big tasks.
2016-07-04T02:13:39Z John[Lisbeth]: The inability to do this well in bash lead me to haskell. In haskell I eventually wanted to use parens for everything and that lead me to lisp.
2016-07-04T02:16:00Z John[Lisbeth]: And now I think that parentheses are the greatest invention of mankind. I can't express why though.
2016-07-04T02:19:47Z John[Lisbeth]: The best way I can explain it is I wanted a language that worked more like how algebra worked in school. There were closures in other languages which resembled parentheses but they did not behave like parentheses in algebra because they didn't follow PEMDAS. Lisp is very close to PEMDAS but different for obvious reasons.
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2016-07-04T02:24:21Z John[Lisbeth]: It's not necessarily advantagous for lisp to be like algebra where I can do something like (+ 2 (- 2 3 4 (/ 1 2))). It's just the way I like to think.
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2016-07-04T02:36:01Z PuercoPop: fe[nl]ix: I was referring to the expectation that if some code works on an old version CMUCL it should work on a new version of SBCL. Not on Maxima itself
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2016-07-04T03:18:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-04T03:19:17Z John[Lisbeth]: Just as morning is relative to your geographic location, the viability of lisp is relative to your perspective.
2016-07-04T03:22:17Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach
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2016-07-04T03:29:38Z burlap: "The variable &OPTIONAL is unbound." - what does this error mean?
2016-07-04T03:30:39Z beach: burlap: It sounds like your Common Lisp system thought that a lambda list was a function call.
2016-07-04T03:30:54Z beach: burlap: It could happen if you misspell DEFUN or something like that.
2016-07-04T03:31:06Z beach: Do you have some more context?
2016-07-04T03:31:52Z burlap: That was it - I misspelled defun >_<
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2016-07-04T03:45:59Z loke: hello Lisp!
2016-07-04T03:46:08Z beach: Hi loke!
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2016-07-04T03:47:08Z loke: Hello beach!
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2016-07-04T03:57:19Z papachan: morning
2016-07-04T03:59:19Z beach: Hello papachan!
2016-07-04T03:59:58Z emaczen: I got a stack overflow condition -- how do I get to the beginning of the backtrace or see how large the stack is?
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2016-07-04T04:03:19Z pierpa: emaczen: that depends a lot on your environment. If this happened to me, for example, I could issue a :b command and then scroll back
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2016-07-04T04:04:25Z emaczen: I'm using CCL and Slime
2016-07-04T04:04:34Z pierpa: but most probably you are using a different CL from me, probably on a different OS, and maybe you're using a different editor.
2016-07-04T04:04:45Z pierpa: ok, CCL matches :)
2016-07-04T04:04:56Z pierpa: then use :b
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2016-07-04T04:05:39Z emaczen: pierpa: I don't think I can do that with SLIME
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2016-07-04T04:06:08Z pierpa: I don't use slime so can't help then.
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2016-07-04T04:06:25Z emaczen: pierpa: Are you using ccl-hemlock?
2016-07-04T04:06:30Z pierpa: no
2016-07-04T04:06:44Z pierpa: simple emacs' inferior lisp
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2016-07-04T04:22:46Z emaczen: hah, SBCL doesn't overflow the stack...
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2016-07-04T04:23:37Z beach: Does it go into an infinite loop instead?
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2016-07-04T04:25:08Z emaczen: The backtrace is full of ccl::%%check-keywords ...
2016-07-04T04:25:24Z emaczen: beach: SBCL is working as I expected
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2016-07-04T07:00:18Z piterbig: what's the difference between asdf-install and quicklisp
2016-07-04T07:00:40Z Bike: asdf-install is obsolete. also some other differences, but who remembers them
2016-07-04T07:01:07Z Bike: (asdf is distinct, though. and not obsolete)
2016-07-04T07:02:35Z piterbig: ok,thank you
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2016-07-04T07:07:58Z piterbig: when I want to define another system,I have to use asdf:defsystem
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2016-07-04T07:21:54Z edgar-rft: piterbig: quicklisp has "quickproject" to create asdf skeletons for new projects, see <http://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/>
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2016-07-04T07:30:56Z anquegi: For creating new projects you can also use https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-project, quicklisp internally use asdf, this is not obsolete, the version 3.1.x is the last and the one that you should use
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2016-07-04T07:32:33Z piterbig: @anqueji thank you
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2016-07-04T07:40:59Z anquegi: :-)
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2016-07-04T11:14:56Z pavelpenev: can someone recommend a statistics library?
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2016-07-04T11:35:54Z schjetne: pavelpenev: would Maxima do the trick?
2016-07-04T11:35:56Z schjetne: http://maxima.sourceforge.net/docs/manual/maxima_toc.html#SEC_Contents
2016-07-04T11:36:16Z schjetne: You can use it as a library, not just as an interactive system
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2016-07-04T11:38:37Z pavelpenev: schjetne: i think it might, thanks.
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2016-07-04T12:52:29Z lllshamanlll: what are key differences between methods overloading and multimethods? except resolution time(i.e. compile time vs runtime)
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2016-07-04T12:53:26Z dim: do you mean single dispatch vs multiple dispatch?
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2016-07-04T13:00:19Z lllshamanlll: i guess no, using overloading in languages like c++ http://ideone.com/SWAm2L it's perfectly valid & is based on multiple arguments of the function, my question is why one should use multimethods instead of overloading?
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2016-07-04T13:09:48Z dim: lllshamanlll: IIUC because of multiple dispatch
2016-07-04T13:10:14Z dim: see http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html for starters
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2016-07-04T13:13:46Z lllshamanlll: thx, will take a look
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2016-07-04T13:22:53Z rumbler31: minion
2016-07-04T13:22:55Z rumbler31: minion: help
2016-07-04T13:22:56Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
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2016-07-04T13:53:25Z phoe_krk: Erlang is a really satisfying language.
2016-07-04T13:55:10Z sjl: just to confirm my suspicions, if I have an array of element-type t, when I store a fixnum in it it'll store the fixnum directly in the array, not as a pointer to some other hunk of memory, right?
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2016-07-04T13:56:06Z sjl: SBCL seems to do that, at least according to my ham-fisted test of allocating my entire heap space as an array
2016-07-04T13:56:10Z phoe_krk: sjl: isn't it implementation-dependent?
2016-07-04T13:56:17Z varjag: this is implementation-dependent
2016-07-04T13:56:33Z sjl: yeah that makes sense... I really only care about SBCL and maybe CCL here
2016-07-04T13:56:46Z phoe_krk: sjl: ask the implementation makers.
2016-07-04T13:56:52Z sjl: fair enough
2016-07-04T13:57:14Z varjag: sbcl could be smart enough to infer the actual type and unbox
2016-07-04T13:57:51Z fe[nl]ix: sjl: if it's T, it's boxed
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2016-07-04T13:59:01Z phoe_krk: fe[nl]ix: does it *have* to be boxed though?
2016-07-04T13:59:05Z sjl: fe[nl]ix: I know the non-fixnum elements will be boxed, but will the fixnums?
2016-07-04T13:59:12Z phoe_krk: some implementations mark this utilizing some bits on 64-bit systems.
2016-07-04T13:59:48Z varjag: t is the most general type, if a compiler can infer the actual subtype it can well use that
2016-07-04T14:00:11Z sjl: I'm writing a Prolog VM and using a bigass array for the Prolog heap.  Most elements in it will be fixnum addresses of other things in the heap, but it would be nice if I could make some of them pointers to actual Lisp objects in memory
2016-07-04T14:00:29Z rumbler31: what is the use of specifying element-type to be t, that doesn't say much of anything, does it?
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2016-07-04T14:01:15Z sjl: without boxing all those addresses and destroying cache locality
2016-07-04T14:02:19Z sjl: rumbler31: not really... I'd probably say :element-type '(or fixnum t) just for documentation purposes
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2016-07-04T14:02:45Z sjl: to mean "this array contains fixnum addresses, but can also contain pointers to arbitrary Lisp objects"
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2016-07-04T14:03:08Z rumbler31: I see what you're trying to do
2016-07-04T14:03:21Z varjag: sjl: make an array of mixed fixnums and non-numeric entries
2016-07-04T14:03:25Z jackdaniel: sjl: I think that it will store fixnum as an immediate type, but you'll be better served by the actual implementation developers
2016-07-04T14:03:30Z varjag: i think you'll see the fixnums being boxed
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2016-07-04T14:03:49Z sjl: varjag: how can I "see" the actual bytes of the array in memory in e.g. SBCL
2016-07-04T14:04:00Z sjl: if I could see the damn bytes that would clear things up immediately
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2016-07-04T14:05:13Z sjl: I tried allocating an array with element-type fixnum with just enough elements to fill my heap image, then gc'ing it and allocating the same size array of type t
2016-07-04T14:05:24Z sjl: and filling that with random integers
2016-07-04T14:05:29Z sjl: and it didn't exhaust the heap
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2016-07-04T14:11:49Z varjag: sjl: make some simple test functions with different type declarations, and see how they do access in disassembly?
2016-07-04T14:12:03Z varjag: but generally you can't rely on this
2016-07-04T14:13:18Z sjl: varjag: I'm fine with it being implementation-specific -- I really only care about making SBCL and maybe CCL fast
2016-07-04T14:13:37Z sjl: if other implementations end up boxing things that's fine.  it'll still *work*, it'll just be slower
2016-07-04T14:14:16Z varjag: ..both on x86 and amd64? :p
2016-07-04T14:16:21Z phoe_krk: sjl: I think this question is better asked on #sbcl and #ccl. This is implementation specific, so I guess it would be more fruitful to discuss it in the implementations' channels.
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2016-07-04T14:16:44Z varjag: does your prolog vm really have bottleneck in memory access?
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2016-07-04T14:17:51Z sjl: phoe_krk: I'm asking in #sbcl now, yeah
2016-07-04T14:18:47Z sjl: varjag: I'm implementing the Warren Abstract Machine so a LOT of what it does during runtime is "pointer" chasing around this array
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2016-07-04T14:23:16Z varjag: sjl: i'm just surprized it would favor cache locality, from admittedly little i remember of prolog
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2016-07-04T14:24:23Z varjag: prolog sounds like one of the least pipelining friendly languages out there
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2016-07-04T14:32:13Z Zhivago: Why would you say that about prolog?
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2016-07-04T14:41:56Z varjag: Zhivago: assuming a large amount of terms, i'm not seeing an obvious way to store them localized, for arbitrary queries
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2016-07-04T14:44:19Z sjl: varjag: (member (some (big ass functor) with a (lot of) elements) [...some list with that target thing at the end...])
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2016-07-04T14:45:10Z sjl: sprinkle some REFs in there
2016-07-04T14:45:28Z sjl: and it'd be nice if you can load the entire bigass thing with one memory request
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2016-07-04T14:46:51Z sjl: (the one in the list I mean, not the first one -- the first one will always be in cache)
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2016-07-04T15:24:26Z rumbler31: !seen sjl
2016-07-04T15:24:37Z sjl is still here
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2016-07-04T16:30:22Z phoe_krk: ...
2016-07-04T16:30:47Z phoe_krk: I just found a bug in Slime.
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2016-07-04T16:31:06Z phoe_krk: 1) Go into REPL, type (read) and hit Enter.
2016-07-04T16:31:11Z phoe_krk: 2) Type # and hit Tab.
2016-07-04T16:31:33Z phoe_krk: 3) Hangs up for me on emacs 24.5.1 on debian sid x64.
2016-07-04T16:31:39Z phoe_krk: Could anyone check?
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2016-07-04T16:37:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: phoe_krk: Not a problem for me on 24.5.1 emacs on windows 8 x64, using sbcl
2016-07-04T16:39:19Z phoe_krk: Oh right, it's emacs lucid if it changes anything.
2016-07-04T16:39:39Z phoe_krk: Petit_Dejeuner: thanks.
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2016-07-04T16:42:05Z ym: Yep, hangs for me too.
2016-07-04T16:42:29Z phoe_krk: ym: give me some details about your OS/emacs
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2016-07-04T16:49:44Z ym: phoe_krk, http://paste.lisp.org/+6URX
2016-07-04T16:50:23Z rumbler31: hey me too
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2016-07-04T16:52:07Z Grue``: does not hang up for me
2016-07-04T16:52:14Z phoe_krk: rumbler31: details pls
2016-07-04T16:52:35Z rumbler31: phoe_krk: will annotate the above paste
2016-07-04T16:52:50Z Grue``: however I had a similar bug before (hanging when pressing TAB during read), and got it fixed after reporting on github
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2016-07-04T16:53:51Z Grue``: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/17
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2016-07-04T16:56:03Z rumbler31: phoe_krk: submitted
2016-07-04T16:56:25Z phoe_krk: rumbler31: what's submitted?
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2016-07-04T16:56:45Z phoe_krk: I can't see any annotation
2016-07-04T16:57:30Z rumbler31: one moment
2016-07-04T16:57:53Z rumbler31: ok
2016-07-04T16:58:26Z phoe_krk: rumbler31: your OS?
2016-07-04T16:58:41Z rumbler31: osx 10.11.5
2016-07-04T16:58:55Z rumbler31: the github issue posted above seems to be tracking this
2016-07-04T16:59:13Z rumbler31: *nm i didn't read the date
2016-07-04T17:00:06Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/329
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2016-07-04T17:01:58Z rumbler31: ym: how did you get that ql-dist:system swank line in your paste?
2016-07-04T17:03:24Z ym: (ql:system-list) C-r slime
2016-07-04T17:03:39Z ym: List may be huge though.
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2016-07-04T17:05:31Z rumbler31: same slime version
2016-07-04T17:06:49Z Xach_: ym: (ql:system-apropos "slime") also works.
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2016-07-04T17:07:14Z rumbler31: ty
2016-07-04T17:07:31Z ym: Yes. And there is local-projects-searcher, but I don't get what name should I feed it.
2016-07-04T17:10:11Z rumbler31: Xach_: running update-all-dists lands me in the debugger with "/quicklisp/tmp/distinfo-update/" is not a directory"
2016-07-04T17:10:29Z Xach_: ym: you should not use it directly.
2016-07-04T17:10:32Z rumbler31: while attempting to delete this directory
2016-07-04T17:10:42Z Xach_: rumbler31: odd. well, you can safely rm -rf ~/quicklisp/tmp/
2016-07-04T17:11:53Z rumbler31: that got past it, ty
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2016-07-04T18:31:44Z burlaps: if I want to sort a list of lists based on the # in position 1 of the sublists (i.e ((a 4), (b 1), (c 2)) -> ((a 4), (c 2), (b 1))), how would I go about doing that?
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2016-07-04T18:37:33Z phoe_krk: Hmm.
2016-07-04T18:37:48Z phoe_krk: Try SORT with :key #'second
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2016-07-04T18:49:21Z burlaps: phoe_krk: resulted in an error ( invalid number of arguments: 2) at (SECOND (B 1) #<unknown>) [tl,external]
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2016-07-04T18:49:39Z Bike: are you sure you did :key and not :test?
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2016-07-04T18:50:50Z burlaps: The actual list I used it on was ((a 4) (b 1) (c 2) (d 2))
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2016-07-04T18:54:59Z burlaps: Bike: ah got it to work now, thanks
2016-07-04T18:55:07Z Bike: np
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2016-07-04T19:12:33Z phoe_krk: What is the short way to say: object A is an instance of a class which has class B as its superclass?
2016-07-04T19:13:07Z phoe_krk: Would "object A is of type B" suffice here?
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2016-07-04T19:18:07Z Bike: "generalized instance", i think
2016-07-04T19:18:29Z rumbler31: Xach_:  If i'm working with a system obtained via quicklisp that I've made changes to, and I want to carry those changes over to a new dist that might have the original installed via quicklisp, is the right approach to place the modified version in local-projects (and additionally delete the original version in the new dist?)
2016-07-04T19:18:34Z Bike: 's in the glossary
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2016-07-04T19:21:27Z phoe_krk: This sends the provided message, which is a generalized instance of the {\btt MESSAGE} class, to the provided recipient, which is a generalized instance of the {\btt CHATTER} class.
2016-07-04T19:21:30Z phoe_krk: This is longggggg.
2016-07-04T19:21:41Z phoe_krk: But oh well. I guess it's documentation.
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2016-07-04T19:24:16Z Bike: you could use a clhsy format. "message--a {\btt MESSAGE}. recipient--a {\btt CHATTER}. Sends the message to the recipient."
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2016-07-04T19:25:44Z Bike: or jsut say that as a sentence. "This sends the message (a MESSAGE) to the recipient (a CHATTER)."
2016-07-04T19:25:44Z phoe_krk: Yes - I guess I could.
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2016-07-04T19:28:02Z phoe_krk: Oh goodness.
2016-07-04T19:28:04Z phoe_krk: That's very good.
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2016-07-04T19:48:36Z pjb: phoe_krk: depends if you expect the object not to be of class B (as your formulation intends it).
2016-07-04T19:48:59Z pjb: phoe_krk: (and (typep o 'b) (not (eq (class-of o) (find-class 'b))))
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2016-07-04T19:55:44Z phoe_krk: pjb: right.
2016-07-04T19:56:59Z pjb: phoe_krk: notice that most lisp programs actually practice duck-typing, so you should not have to perform this test.
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2016-07-04T19:58:52Z phoe_krk: Is it okay if I make an empty DEFCLASS while declaring my internal protocol, and later DEFCLASS again when I do the implementation?
2016-07-04T19:59:04Z phoe_krk: By empty, I mean (defclass foo () ())
2016-07-04T19:59:33Z pjb: in CL you would define a protocol as a bunch of defgeneric.
2016-07-04T20:00:11Z pjb: Only if you wanted to provide some default implementation for some subgraph of the class hierarchy, you would define a class, and specialize your generic function on that class.
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2016-07-04T20:00:33Z pjb: Of course, you can also do it just to monkey the OO systems of other languages.
2016-07-04T20:00:54Z pjb: (I do that sometimes, but it's not really beautiful CL OO style).
2016-07-04T20:01:17Z phoe_krk: pjb: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/11-1.html#_564
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2016-07-04T20:01:23Z phoe_krk: There are some protocol classes in there.
2016-07-04T20:01:29Z phoe_krk: Which is what I want to do.
2016-07-04T20:02:05Z pjb: Granted.  Notably, if you design your protocol classes as mixins, then you can do that without any problem downstream.
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2016-07-04T20:03:08Z knobo1: Some lisp projects could need a new maintainer.
2016-07-04T20:03:09Z phoe_krk: By mixins, you mean classes that are not meant to be instantiated, have no slots and are only used as superclasses?
2016-07-04T20:03:16Z phoe_krk: knobo1: elaborate
2016-07-04T20:03:44Z knobo1: When there are two year old pull requests on github, and the maintainer has not been active on github for one year
2016-07-04T20:03:51Z knobo1: like log4cl
2016-07-04T20:03:52Z pjb: well, in CL, mixins can easily have slots. Just take care to avoid collision in slot names.
2016-07-04T20:05:10Z pjb: knobo1: it may mean not that he's disinterested, but rather that he's working at a java job to bring bread to the table.  It's quite possible he'll resume working on CL stuff once he's accumulated a war treasure.
2016-07-04T20:05:19Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-07-04T20:05:22Z pjb: Or perhaps indeed he lost interest.
2016-07-04T20:05:41Z phoe_krk: pjb: yes, but aside from the slots - do you mean this?
2016-07-04T20:05:55Z pjb: phoe_krk: Yes, mostly.
2016-07-04T20:06:27Z knobo1: pjb: 0 contributions in the last year
2016-07-04T20:06:47Z pjb: knobo1: as I said, it may just mean he's busy working at a java shop.
2016-07-04T20:06:53Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: mixins as a concept are orthogonal 'behavioural' units that one combines into an object so that is gains that trait. In the initial implementation of mixins they were not classes, but in most langs you just define classes with methods and inherit to combine
2016-07-04T20:07:05Z knobo1: pjb: right.
2016-07-04T20:07:33Z pjb: You know, it's tyring doing java 9-5.  When you come home, at first you may try to do some lisping to wash you brain, but after a couple of months it's hard to maintain the routine.
2016-07-04T20:08:24Z knobo1: pjb: and then some also get kids.
2016-07-04T20:08:46Z pjb: Yep :-)
2016-07-04T20:09:15Z pjb: Who hopefully will become new lispers in ten years. :-)
2016-07-04T20:09:22Z knobo1: pjb: but what to do with maintainting libraries while you guess that they will be back in 18 years when the kids grow up?
2016-07-04T20:09:41Z pjb: git clone, and maintain it yourself.
2016-07-04T20:09:59Z pjb: I mean github fork.
2016-07-04T20:10:30Z pjb: Then you can always send some pull requests from time to time, or take pull requests from other contributors.
2016-07-04T20:11:07Z jason_m: How is the type-specifier in a slot definition used/enforced?  Is it?  (I just made a class and violated the type-specifier and everything seems ok)
2016-07-04T20:11:11Z pjb: and you may even convince Xach to replace his git repo with yours eventually :-)
2016-07-04T20:11:24Z pjb: jason_m: yes, some implementations do enforce it.
2016-07-04T20:11:45Z pjb: They usually check when you set the slot.
2016-07-04T20:12:01Z jason_m: pjb: Including a call to make-instance?
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2016-07-04T20:12:55Z jason_m: my sbcl doesn't seem to enforce it
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2016-07-04T20:14:41Z Grue`: might depend on safety/debug settings?
2016-07-04T20:16:03Z jason_m: I was playing with it just yesterday and pondering similar questions about class hierarchies, abstract classes etc.  I wanted to specify unify a couple of my classes under a common base type.  Say I had classes Bar and Baz, and the slot I was working with could be either of those types.  I created a (empty) base class Foo, and used that for the slot type
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2016-07-04T20:17:19Z jason_m: there is no common behavior, each of Bar and Baz implement a given protocol, but with a common base class, i can unify them under one type
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2016-07-04T20:18:24Z jason_m: Maybe I'm missing a better way to design it, but I thought it was relevant to the discussio
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2016-07-04T20:19:17Z pjb2: jason_m: yes
2016-07-04T20:20:07Z PuercoPop: jason_m: afaik SBCL doesn't enforce it ever, if you want to, you may find quid-pro-quo useful
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2016-07-04T20:25:00Z jason_m: PuercoPop: Thanks for the suggestion, I'll take a look at it.
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2016-07-04T20:27:43Z Polyphony: So I run something like "(ql:quickload :cl-who)", what else do I have to do in order to use the symbols available in that library?  I've been looking for a while and all of the documentation I've seen is just assuming "(some-library-function)" doesn't throw an error and is loaded properly
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2016-07-04T20:30:24Z Polyphony: It would be ideal to simply "quickload" and go, if that is at all possible
2016-07-04T20:30:55Z Grue`: you need to (use-package :cl-who) or add (:use :cl-who) to your defpackage
2016-07-04T20:31:49Z Grue`: this is not done by default because the symbols from cl-who might clash with your own symbols. also one quicklisp system might have several packages in it
2016-07-04T20:32:32Z rumbler31: mmm... using parenscript, there's this neat thing that every time I call ps-to-stream, some of the variables in a function get renamed to their original name with an incrementing number appended each time...
2016-07-04T20:32:33Z jason_m: Polyphony: To add to that, quickload indeed loads the library.  but the symbols exist in their own namespace (package).  You can "use" a package to make all of its exported symbols available in your current package as Grue` says
2016-07-04T20:33:12Z rumbler31: while i'm sure each version of the generated code will be internally consistent, i find it surprising and wish it would stop
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2016-07-04T20:36:40Z rumbler31: ok, turns out its not internally consistent
2016-07-04T20:37:10Z Polyphony: thanks for the information, all I could seem to find was how to define my own asdf systems or how to write/use extremely simple packages that didn't describe how quicklisp was supposed to help.
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2016-07-04T20:41:50Z Grue`: it helps download dependencies. otherwise you can just do (asdf:load-system :blah)
2016-07-04T20:42:27Z scymtym: jason_m: (proclaim '(optimize (safety 3))) (defclass foo () ((bar :initarg :bar :type string))) (make-instance 'foo :bar 1) => type-error
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2016-07-04T20:44:30Z jason_m: scymtym: ah hah!  same result here
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2016-07-04T20:46:39Z rumbler31: ccl64 osx no error here
2016-07-04T20:47:33Z jason_m: sbcl linux here
2016-07-04T20:48:00Z jason_m: what is the default safety level?  or perhaps more importantly, can i query the safety level?
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2016-07-04T20:49:03Z scymtym: jason_m: i think everything is 1 by default. for describing, use (sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy)
2016-07-04T20:49:07Z rumbler31: although i think ccl ignores proclaims and needs declares in the function body, or the opposite, I forget
2016-07-04T20:49:19Z rumbler31: or maybe thats only for parameter type declarations
2016-07-04T20:50:54Z jason_m: thanks scymtym
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2016-07-04T20:53:38Z scymtym: jason_m: np. also check out (documentation 'sb-c::check-tag-existence 'optimize) for descriptions of the fine grained quantities
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2016-07-04T20:54:21Z scymtym: well s/find grained/dependent/,s/quantities/qualities/
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2016-07-04T20:55:15Z burlaps: is there a way to break out of a loop?
2016-07-04T20:55:40Z rumbler31: you mean get control of a runaway loop?
2016-07-04T20:55:51Z jason_m: I think the lesson here is that sbcl will complain if i turn safety all the way up, and it is probably a good idea to do so during development/testing if i want to catch any type mistakes
2016-07-04T20:56:21Z rumbler31: oh i see the problem
2016-07-04T20:56:27Z burlaps: i.e. (loop for i in list do (if (eq i something) (break out of loop) ))
2016-07-04T20:56:54Z jason_m: and because who knows what another user or implementation will do...  if i put type specifiers in slot definitions, i should make sure everything is consistent with them
2016-07-04T20:57:01Z rumbler31: burlaps: try return
2016-07-04T20:57:09Z rumbler31: or return-from
2016-07-04T20:59:54Z rumbler31: ccl doesn't seem to care about this
2016-07-04T20:59:57Z burlaps: would return also not end the execution of the function that loop is in though?
2016-07-04T21:00:31Z rumbler31: burlaps: probably.  to be sure use a tag and return to that.  or consider another way to write what you want
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2016-07-04T21:02:36Z jason_m: burlaps: This is a good loop reference.  For return, search for the section titles "Unconditional Execution" http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
2016-07-04T21:07:37Z rumbler31: if im not in the debugger, can I inspect an object whose printable representation isn't readable?  like the result of a call to make-instance
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2016-07-04T21:08:15Z rumbler31: i guess I can use *
2016-07-04T21:08:41Z jason_m: rumbler31: yeah, from the repl you can (inspect *).  With slime, you can also right-click->inspect
2016-07-04T21:11:04Z rumbler31: so jason_m I see that the debugger shows me that the slot has a value in its :type property of :string, but initializing it or setf-ing from an accessor with a value that isn't the same type doesn't produce an error in ccl
2016-07-04T21:11:15Z rumbler31: unless i've somehow messed up my defclass and proclaim form
2016-07-04T21:13:06Z jason_m: rumbler31: i'm guessing that there is variation across compilers.  so we know sbcl will enforce it with high safety, and it sounds like ccl never will
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2016-07-04T21:15:34Z rumbler31: maybe this will get brought up tomorrow at the ccl office hours
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2016-07-04T21:16:11Z rumbler31: although I just learned about a package that will wrap type enforcement around your defun and other forms
2016-07-04T21:16:17Z rumbler31: and if I can remember itttt
2016-07-04T21:16:22Z jason_m: rumbler31: Actually, ccl64 on linux I was able to produce the type error
2016-07-04T21:16:47Z rumbler31: maybe i messed up my form then
2016-07-04T21:16:51Z jason_m:  (make-instance 'foo :bar 12)
2016-07-04T21:16:51Z jason_m: > Error: The value 12, derived from the initarg :BAR, can not be used to set the value of the slot BAR in #<FOO #x349A92DE12D>, because it is not of type BASE-STRING.
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2016-07-04T21:17:51Z rumbler31: hmmmmmmm
2016-07-04T21:17:54Z rumbler31: https://bitbucket.org/eeeickythump/defstar/
2016-07-04T21:17:59Z rumbler31: let me try it again
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2016-07-04T21:23:09Z jason_m: ccl produces the error for me even under the default safety settings
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2016-07-04T21:23:30Z jason_m: maybe we're looking at a variation in the same compiler across different platforms
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2016-07-04T21:26:44Z jason_m: I'm stepping away for a couple hours
2016-07-04T21:32:49Z burlaps: "Comma not inside a backquote." - what does this error mean?
2016-07-04T21:34:36Z Bike: syntax error. you have a comma somewhere you shouldn't.
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2016-07-04T21:35:47Z Bike: which is anywhere except a string, an escaped symbol, or in a backquoted expression. maybe some other places, dunno
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2016-07-04T21:36:58Z rumbler31: this happens to me if i suddenly forget that I don't need to delimit function arguments with commas
2016-07-04T21:37:15Z _death: Bike: could also be #\, :)
2016-07-04T21:37:27Z Bike: remembering things is hard
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2016-07-04T21:37:52Z rumbler31: yes, especially when i'm switching between languages or trying to rewrite something from an example
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2016-07-04T21:43:04Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319836 does not produce error
2016-07-04T21:47:17Z sharkteeth: does anyone here use sublime? i'm trying to get better syntax highlighting setup and am not super familiar with it. the default lisp highlighting seems to ignore predicates like evenp/oddp, equal, etc which would be handy to have highlighted.
2016-07-04T21:47:51Z Grue`: emacs doesn't highlight them either
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2016-07-04T21:48:28Z sharkteeth: is it not common for editors to highlight stuff like that? new to lisp
2016-07-04T21:48:44Z sharkteeth: coming from a C/C++ background where IDE's highlight everything
2016-07-04T21:49:19Z Grue`: well, those are just regular functions. other languages I worked with don't highlight library functions either
2016-07-04T21:49:44Z Bike: it highlights a lot of things, but not predicates. i'm not immediately sure what the advantage would be, personally, but you could probably rig something up for the built-ins at least
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2016-07-04T21:50:43Z sharkteeth: in lisp are function/macros/whatever (still learning verbiage) like dolist, push, and evenp treated like library functions and not part of the language?
2016-07-04T21:50:46Z sharkteeth: idk if that makes any sense
2016-07-04T21:51:01Z Bike: dolist and push are macros. evenp is a function.
2016-07-04T21:51:29Z Bike: they're part of the standard library. they're not syntax like C "==" or anything. you can define your own functions/etc with those names using the package system.
2016-07-04T21:51:32Z Grue`: library is part of the language
2016-07-04T21:51:38Z Grue`: *standard library
2016-07-04T21:52:02Z Bike: they're also not "reserved words". lisp doesn't have those.
2016-07-04T21:52:03Z sharkteeth: Bike the advantage for my current setup is instead of just having the "or" in "y-or-n-p" highlighted the whole thing would be...readability for me
2016-07-04T21:52:19Z sharkteeth: ah ok
2016-07-04T21:52:22Z Bike: only the "or" is? that's kind of weird, i would expect the symbol to be highlighted as one thing.
2016-07-04T21:52:41Z sharkteeth: yeah..same thing with ":if-exists" when opening a filestream. just the "if" is highlighted
2016-07-04T21:52:49Z Grue`: sounds like a bug in highlighter
2016-07-04T21:52:54Z Bike: yeah.
2016-07-04T21:53:07Z sharkteeth: alright i'll dig around and try and find something, thanks
2016-07-04T21:53:22Z sharkteeth: didn't know if it was an editor issue or a language thing
2016-07-04T21:53:22Z Grue`: it probably things that a-b is "a minus b"
2016-07-04T21:53:23Z Bike: anything for lisp should at least know that "-" is part of a symbol name, not a lexeme itself.
2016-07-04T21:54:02Z sharkteeth: you would think. i might have my editor preferences messed up somewhere
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2016-07-04T21:58:43Z rumbler31: minion: memo for jason_m: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319836 does not produce error
2016-07-04T21:58:43Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jason_m when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-07-04T22:01:05Z rumbler31: anyone know about parenscript and lexical variables that seem to get an incremented number appended to them after every call to ps
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2016-07-04T22:03:32Z Bike: gensyms?
2016-07-04T22:03:51Z rumbler31: also annoyingly, references to the changed variable name don't seem to propagate
2016-07-04T22:04:11Z rumbler31: i tried setting the gensym-counter to 0 and rerunning it but that didn't work
2016-07-04T22:04:41Z Bike: you can have two distinct gensyms with the same name
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2016-07-04T22:08:35Z rumbler31: i understand what you're saying, but i'm confused as to how it applies
2016-07-04T22:09:51Z rumbler31: minion: memo for jasom_m: can you paste me the code you're using to produce the error?  I don't seem to be doing it right
2016-07-04T22:09:51Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jasom_m when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-07-04T22:12:58Z rumbler31: minion: memo for jason_m: ok, when the :type is string, not :string, I can reproduce the rror
2016-07-04T22:12:58Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jason_m when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-07-04T22:27:19Z ben_vulpes: can `collect` in `loop` be made to work with multiple return values?
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2016-07-04T22:33:09Z Bike: yeah. what do you want to do?
2016-07-04T22:33:21Z Bike: rumbler31: i could be misunderstanding, i haven't used parenscript much at all.
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2016-07-04T22:39:01Z ben_vulpes: eh, perhaps `multiple-value-list` in the forms i'm collecting would help.
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2016-07-04T22:59:43Z rumbler31: Bike:  so gensym is used to rename the variable names in a let form
2016-07-04T23:01:46Z rumbler31: which while I can't argue isn't necessary, for some reason is giving me problems, either because I don't understand the implications of my choice of approach
2016-07-04T23:02:07Z Bike: can you paste some code or something, because i don't want to draw impossible conclusions
2016-07-04T23:02:37Z rumbler31: or because there's a bug
2016-07-04T23:02:37Z rumbler31: yea one moment
2016-07-04T23:05:30Z rumbler31: sigh
2016-07-04T23:06:36Z rumbler31: let and let* have the same semantics. I needed let* and forgot
2016-07-04T23:06:59Z Bike: that's a weird design choice
2016-07-04T23:07:04Z rumbler31: shhh
2016-07-04T23:07:09Z rumbler31: i mean
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2016-07-04T23:07:20Z rumbler31: let and let* behave the same way in cl as they do in parenscript
2016-07-04T23:07:39Z Bike: that makes more sense?
2016-07-04T23:08:23Z rumbler31: in that variables defined in let can't reference each other, and let* can
2016-07-04T23:09:07Z rumbler31: and that was my problem.  although the variable renaming surprised me.  I figure if there was going to be a conflict it would only then invoke a gensym as opposed to doing it all the time
2016-07-04T23:10:18Z Bike: well, glad it's fixed.
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2016-07-05T00:44:49Z fugue: I'm working on incrementing a list by the element position. I'm having a tough time with the 'counter' incrementing. Here is my attempt: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319839
2016-07-05T00:46:06Z Bike: don't setf variables that don't exist like that, use let
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2016-07-05T00:46:44Z Bike: you misspelled the function as "incr" in itself
2016-07-05T00:47:05Z Bike: and the reason it doesn't work as you expect is that every recursive call resets count to zero before anything else
2016-07-05T00:48:19Z fugue: You suggest using let, to set the initial count and call the recursion in the body of the let?
2016-07-05T00:48:36Z Bike: to bind the variable
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2016-07-05T00:50:47Z Bike: but, if you rewrote the function with proper lexical binding, i'd probably just have it be a parameter anyway
2016-07-05T00:51:07Z fugue: The counter as a param?
2016-07-05T00:51:37Z Bike: yes. (defun inc (list n) (if (null list) list (cons (+ n (car list)) (inc (cdr list) (1+ n)))))
2016-07-05T00:51:51Z Bike: and then call like (inc whatever 0), of course
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2016-07-05T00:52:54Z fugue: I thought of that too, unfortunately this function can only have 1 parameter (a list)
2016-07-05T00:53:36Z Bike: "can only have" as in this is a homework assignment that makes you go through stupid contortions?
2016-07-05T00:53:44Z fugue: Exactly this ^
2016-07-05T00:53:49Z Bike: figurse
2016-07-05T00:54:06Z fugue: You know what's funny, if I were to take the function with the list as a param, and call another function with the list and a counter as a param :)
2016-07-05T00:54:14Z fugue chuckles
2016-07-05T00:54:34Z Bike: how i'd actually write this is (defun inc (list) (let ((count 0)) (mapcar (lambda (element) (+ (incf count) element)) list)))
2016-07-05T00:54:52Z Bike: but i expect you Have To Use Recursion
2016-07-05T00:55:39Z sharkteeth: i imagine this is a common question but what's the practical benefit to let vs. setf for variables w/in a function
2016-07-05T00:55:53Z sharkteeth: scope issues?
2016-07-05T00:55:57Z Bike: they're not comparable. let establishes bindings, setf modifies them.
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2016-07-05T00:56:21Z sharkteeth: fair enough
2016-07-05T00:56:46Z Bike: (setf x 5) is like "x = 5;" in C. you can't write that without declaring x first. or you can, but it's ugly and retro and it assumes x is an int or suchlike.
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2016-07-05T00:57:56Z Bike: sometimes just throwing in a setf like in this function will make the compiler assume it's a dynamic variable, similarly. which you should really declare elsewhere.
2016-07-05T00:58:07Z fugue: Bike: yep, recursion. I have finished the mapcar version
2016-07-05T00:58:34Z sharkteeth: ok that makes sense why i've been able to use setf where let should've been and not had issues yet
2016-07-05T00:58:45Z Bike: i don't know what the fuck your professor wants then. no optional parameters? I guess you can use labels.
2016-07-05T00:58:47Z sharkteeth: very small programs doing nothing fancy
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2016-07-05T00:59:10Z fugue: I wonder if I can declare the counter outside as a symbol?
2016-07-05T00:59:37Z Bike: you can make it a dynamic variable, which is how it works now, but it's a ridiculous way to write it
2016-07-05T00:59:53Z Bike: can you use labels? just use labels.
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2016-07-05T01:01:29Z fugue: Is it possible to initialize something like this to 0 (defconstant sym 'count)
2016-07-05T01:02:03Z Bike: well, it wouldn't be constant, considering you're incrementing it
2016-07-05T01:02:16Z fugue: oh, right.
2016-07-05T01:02:22Z Bike: and again, you're thinking of something like dynamic variables.
2016-07-05T01:02:40Z Bike: the problem with that is there's no way for your function to know when it's being called recursively, so it can never reset the counter.
2016-07-05T01:03:07Z Bike: so, use labels. an auxiliary function that does take multiple parameters. and lament your education.
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2016-07-05T01:03:27Z sharkteeth: couldn't you just loop through the lisp and for each element do increment each element by the loop index?
2016-07-05T01:03:28Z fugue: Seems like that's the best option
2016-07-05T01:03:33Z sharkteeth: *list
2016-07-05T01:03:40Z fugue: sharkteeth: Not recursively...
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2016-07-05T01:03:47Z sharkteeth: oh nevermind
2016-07-05T01:04:33Z Bike: (defun inc (list) (loop for i from 0 for elem in list collect (+ elem i))), another quite sensible method
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2016-07-05T01:08:45Z fugue: (defun inc (x) (inc-r x 0) )
2016-07-05T01:08:49Z fugue: is what he's going to get
2016-07-05T01:09:17Z Bike: sure
2016-07-05T01:09:20Z fugue: heh
2016-07-05T01:09:37Z Bike: labels lets you make inc-r local, which is a bit cleaner, but it's not a big deal
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2016-07-05T01:10:07Z fugue: Yeah I'm probably going to come back to it and tinker with labels.
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2016-07-05T01:13:09Z fugue: Bike: so how are dynamic 'global' variables actually dealth with
2016-07-05T01:14:48Z Bike: the semantics are basically that the dynamic variable's name (symbol) has a "slot" associated with it, where a value can be put. setf on a dynamic variable puts whatever value in the slot. let on a dynamic variable basically sets the slot to whatever value, then sets it back to whatever it was at the end of the let.
2016-07-05T01:14:57Z Bike: the slot is global, so values are preserved across function invocations etc
2016-07-05T01:16:57Z phadthai: you could consider those like stacks, let pushes a new value, which gets popped at the end of that lexical scope
2016-07-05T01:18:25Z phadthai: and every concurrent use may see its own current value (they are often used for thread-specific variables as well)
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2016-07-05T01:46:39Z sharkteeth: is the best way to alter a single element of a list to construct a new list with the new value or is there an accessor function that's cleaner/more appropriate?
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2016-07-05T01:53:19Z phadthai: purely functional code would usually "cons" or create a new list, but it depends on your needs, if your list is very large, it may be much faster to only alter it; also, if you have other existig references to that list, you would not need to update those for them to see the modifications immediately
2016-07-05T01:54:12Z phadthai: and if you'll often update elements by index, a list might not be the ideal type
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2016-07-05T01:57:16Z fugue: I've got to compare a list with a 2d list of lists: X: (abc) with Y: ((abc) (abcde) (aaa)), and return all sublists that start with X (abc)
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2016-07-05T01:58:37Z fugue: I know there is 'member' method, but is there something like a 'startswith'
2016-07-05T02:00:20Z loke: fugue: you have it in Alexandria
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2016-07-05T02:00:52Z fugue: didn't Alexander the Grape burn it down
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2016-07-05T02:01:35Z fugue: Oh, I thought you were messing around
2016-07-05T02:01:45Z loke: so something like: (remove-if-not (lambda (v) (alexandria:starts-with XXX v :test #'equal)) YYY)
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2016-07-05T02:02:26Z fugue: loke: thanks! although I don't think we're allowed to use external libraries for this assignment
2016-07-05T02:02:31Z fugue: (intro to AI cs course)
2016-07-05T02:03:42Z loke: Well, then you can write your own. It's not like it's hard.
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2016-07-05T02:03:59Z loke: You can look at how Alexandria does it.
2016-07-05T02:04:38Z fugue: true
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2016-07-05T02:05:31Z loke: fugue: You probably want to look at ALEXANDRIA:STARTS-WITH-SUBSEQ
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2016-07-05T02:29:22Z fugue: I have (remove prefix dict :test #'equal), how can I use 'not equal' here?
2016-07-05T02:29:36Z Xach_: :test-not
2016-07-05T02:29:54Z sharkteeth: thanks phadthai
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2016-07-05T02:30:55Z fugue: Xach_: thanks :]
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2016-07-05T02:41:50Z JordiGH: I just tried the Retro Type-In Game from Land of Lisp: http://ideone.com/q2i1W7
2016-07-05T02:42:12Z JordiGH: The problem is that on line 8, (read-char), well... https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=lisp+read+keypress
2016-07-05T02:43:11Z Bike: you can use read-char-no-hang, but streams are not really meant for that kind of keyboard control
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2016-07-05T02:43:45Z JordiGH: ;_;
2016-07-05T02:44:00Z JordiGH: That just acts as if I never input anything and the robots kill me immediately.
2016-07-05T02:44:06Z JordiGH: Well, not immediately.
2016-07-05T02:44:19Z JordiGH: Just as fast as robots can move, which is faster than my fingers can fly.
2016-07-05T02:44:29Z JordiGH: So, what's this about streams not being meant for this kind of thing?
2016-07-05T02:44:57Z JordiGH: Says here I should use cl-curses?
2016-07-05T02:45:15Z Bike: curses would help, yeah. that grabs the keyboard more closely
2016-07-05T02:45:34Z Bike: or... i think it's called charms? cl-charms.
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2016-07-05T02:46:00Z phadthai: sharkteeth: welcome; if you decide to copy the list, there are various functions designed to work on them and return the modified copy, of course; you'll see those in the conses" and "sequences" dictionaries of the hyperspec
2016-07-05T02:46:17Z Bike: streams are for text. you're not doing that, you want to see the keyboard as buttons, which lisp has no built-in mechanism for
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2016-07-05T02:47:32Z sharkteeth: so far i've only been modifying lists by constructing new ones w/ cons, list, or append, but part of the reason for me trying to learn list is to deal with large amounts of data where that might impact performance down the road
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2016-07-05T02:47:40Z sharkteeth: learn lisp, not list
2016-07-05T02:48:05Z sharkteeth: not trying to put the cart before the horse but also trying to avoid bad habits. lisp is definitely a big paradigm shift for me
2016-07-05T02:48:09Z JordiGH: Bike: Okay... I hope I can get that working.
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2016-07-05T02:49:40Z sharkteeth: slowly working through Seibel's Practical Common Lisp
2016-07-05T02:51:05Z JordiGH: Killer robots are more fun in my experience.
2016-07-05T02:51:25Z JordiGH is still trying to figure out that crazy format on line 32.
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2016-07-05T02:51:45Z Bike: have you tried formatter?
2016-07-05T02:51:51Z phadthai: sharkteeth: nice, it's indeed a language which requires some using to.  Also, because lists are made out of conses, it's also possible with tricks to efficiently perform "destructive" operations on them, this has to be done with care too.  It's also possible to keep a "pointer" into a list using a cons reference, to build general trees with those conses etc
2016-07-05T02:52:17Z phadthai: sharkteeth: that's an excellent book, another that I recommend is "on lisp"
2016-07-05T02:52:31Z loke: phadthai: Isn't that Graham's book?
2016-07-05T02:52:54Z phadthai: loke: yes
2016-07-05T02:53:07Z sharkteeth: I'll take a look at it once I finish this one. I also have "Artificial Intelligence w/ Common Lisp" by James Noyes on my desk
2016-07-05T02:53:10Z loke: phadthai: I don't like that one at all. It gives plenty of bad advice.
2016-07-05T02:53:14Z JordiGH: Bike: I'm sure there are clearer ways to do this, but I'm having fun looking at all the crazy things that format can do.
2016-07-05T02:53:17Z phadthai: many don't agree with the scheme-style he used when writing it, but it expands on advanced features like macros etc
2016-07-05T02:53:43Z Bike: JordiGH: no, i mean, to help understand it. if you do (macroexpand-1 '(formatter some-format-string)) you'll get lisp code that does what the format call would do.
2016-07-05T02:53:49Z Bike: which might help, or it might not
2016-07-05T02:53:55Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: How is it?
2016-07-05T02:54:13Z sharkteeth: which one, NeverDie? AI w/ CL or Practical CL?
2016-07-05T02:54:21Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: AI.
2016-07-05T02:54:33Z loke: phadthai: It's not just style. For example, suggesting the use of recusion for loops is not just bad advice, it's effectively destructive.
2016-07-05T02:55:03Z sharkteeth: I just finished the last chapter before he starts getting into the actual AI concepts. The first couple chapters are mostly an intro to lisp. So far it seems pretty concise and well written
2016-07-05T02:55:15Z sharkteeth: I'm taking a break from it until I get more comfortable with the language
2016-07-05T02:55:17Z phadthai: loke: and also very sheme-ish, academic... I agree it's not the best approach with Common Lisp most of the time
2016-07-05T02:55:33Z JordiGH: Bike: Ah, let's see...
2016-07-05T02:55:39Z loke: phadthai: Yes. THe book would have been much better if it had been a Scheme book.
2016-07-05T02:55:53Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Cool. When was it released?
2016-07-05T02:56:17Z sharkteeth: the edition I have is from '92. I think it's a 300 or 400 level CS undergrad textbook
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2016-07-05T02:56:36Z JordiGH: Bike: Ha, no, doesn't help. This looks worse than Maxima code.
2016-07-05T02:56:47Z Bike: oh well.
2016-07-05T02:56:54Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Never been to college. Is that supposed to be somewhat difficult or what.
2016-07-05T02:56:59Z JordiGH: Btw, how do I tell clisp to not be so shouty?
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2016-07-05T02:57:11Z Bike: 400 level is fourth year ish, so yes difficult, sorta.
2016-07-05T02:57:17Z JordiGH: Lowercase, the greatest CS achievement of the 80s.
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2016-07-05T02:57:28Z NeverDie: Bike: Figured as much. So 300 is 3rd year-ish?
2016-07-05T02:57:30Z Bike: try setting *print-case* to :downcase?
2016-07-05T02:57:38Z Bike: NeverDie: yes
2016-07-05T02:57:48Z NeverDie: Which kinds of begs the question as to why not just use that instead of saying 300-400.
2016-07-05T02:57:50Z sharkteeth: I guess what I mean is that it's written at a level that assumes a foundational knowledge of computer science, a little math, and basic programming
2016-07-05T02:57:50Z JordiGH: Bike: Thanks, that works!
2016-07-05T02:57:54Z Bike: of course it's pretty arbitrary
2016-07-05T02:58:12Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Basic stuff then.
2016-07-05T02:58:16Z sharkteeth: some lower-level (first, second year) textbooks are written at more of a THIS IS A COMPUTER level
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2016-07-05T02:59:00Z Bike: NeverDie: well, i took some 300 level courses in my first and second years. just "years" doesn't account for how the prerequisites are, i guess
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2016-07-05T02:59:43Z JordiGH: So, .cl or .lisp file extension?
2016-07-05T02:59:47Z sharkteeth: yeah. basically it's written to be understood by someone that's taken an intro to programming course and understands what a compiler is, what a variable is etc
2016-07-05T03:00:05Z Bike: JordiGH: .lisp
2016-07-05T03:00:06Z phadthai: JordiGH: I also see .lsp :)  I personally like .lisp
2016-07-05T03:00:19Z sharkteeth: i got it for $25 used on amazon if you're interested neverdie
2016-07-05T03:00:23Z JordiGH: Any dissenting votes for .cl?
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2016-07-05T03:01:44Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Thank you for the offer, I'll have to pass. Currently have my hands full with work & trying to learn Racket & Haskell at the same time lol.
2016-07-05T03:01:46Z JordiGH: lol.
2016-07-05T03:02:01Z JordiGH: Seeing none, ".lisp" it is.
2016-07-05T03:02:33Z sharkteeth: yeah i work in a completely non-programming related field so the lisp hacking is on my off time only haha
2016-07-05T03:03:10Z JordiGH: Hm, what is it with non-professional programmers picking up lisp? The guy who wrote Land of Lisp is also some kind of medical doctor, iirc.
2016-07-05T03:03:28Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: I do programming for a living. It's unfortunately not functional programming.
2016-07-05T03:03:30Z sharkteeth: everyone needs a hobby
2016-07-05T03:03:49Z sharkteeth: coding is a lot less stressful when your paycheck doesn't depend on it i suppose
2016-07-05T03:04:04Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Not really, but then again I'm new to coding for money I suppose.
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2016-07-05T03:04:32Z NeverDie: Started learning how to program on my own like 1.5 years ago, but just casually and landed a job 3 months ago.
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2016-07-05T03:05:20Z NeverDie: If anything, working as a programmer has made me crave programming even more it seems.
2016-07-05T03:05:34Z sharkteeth: i'd imagine there's some functional programming gigs out there if you're interested...big data stuff at facebook and google and quant trading firms in NY and Chicago, etc
2016-07-05T03:06:10Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Yeah but they usually want someone with more experience, especially related to the field they're hiring.
2016-07-05T03:06:45Z NeverDie: Although at least I have stuff to back me up when I say I'm one of the fastest learners anyone will ever meet rofl.
2016-07-05T03:08:13Z sharkteeth: i can't speak for tech firms but i do know that trading firms don't really give a shit about experience. interviews are mostly about fast learning/adaptability and basic exposure to the technology
2016-07-05T03:09:04Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: You used to work at a trading firm?
2016-07-05T03:09:51Z sharkteeth: no...i interviewed at one for a trading desk job a few years ago and have friends in that area though
2016-07-05T03:09:59Z sharkteeth: i have no desire to live in that world
2016-07-05T03:10:14Z NeverDie: How much does it pay?
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2016-07-05T03:11:06Z sharkteeth: on the quant side i'm not sure. i was looking more into the trading side which is performance-based pay
2016-07-05T03:11:06Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: And what's the work really like.
2016-07-05T03:11:27Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: You're from NYC?
2016-07-05T03:11:28Z sharkteeth: building risk models and automated trading systems
2016-07-05T03:11:32Z sharkteeth: no i live in the midwest
2016-07-05T03:11:46Z sharkteeth: most of this kind of stuff is based out of Chicago
2016-07-05T03:11:51Z NeverDie: Ah. Once upon a time you were in NYC?
2016-07-05T03:12:05Z NeverDie: I'm actually from NYC myself and I've been interested about that kind of stuff.
2016-07-05T03:12:12Z sharkteeth: nope...live in detroit, undergrad in MI.
2016-07-05T03:12:48Z sharkteeth: most of these firms trade CBOE/CME instruments like futures and options so they co-locate with the exchanges in Chi
2016-07-05T03:13:04Z sharkteeth: there are some HFT firms in NY/NJ but i'm not familiar with them or what they do
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2016-07-05T03:14:51Z sharkteeth: if you search "chicago quant trading" or "chicago prop trading" you'll get a decent cross section of firms pretty quick
2016-07-05T03:15:23Z sharkteeth: some firms are heavier into the HFT/automated (read: programming) side than others, i.e. jane street, citadel
2016-07-05T03:16:10Z NeverDie: sharkteeth: Interesting. What does the field usually pay?
2016-07-05T03:16:57Z sharkteeth: I'm honestly not sure about the quant side. trading desk is six figures after a year or two of training plus performance
2016-07-05T03:17:59Z sharkteeth: it's hard to say because a lot of that kind of pay is dependent on the strength of the firm as well as how well you do, kinda like wall st. bonuses vs base pay
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2016-07-05T03:19:03Z fugue: I've got a list=A and a list of lists=B. I take the list-length of A and want to iterate (recursive) through lists in B and print ONLY the first list-length elements like so: (print (subseq a 0 (list-length b))
2016-07-05T03:19:30Z fugue: ^ this seems to work when I manually type, but fails for The bounding indices 0 and 2 are bad for a sequence of length 1.
2016-07-05T03:19:35Z Polyphony: NeverDie: I've found some relevant info in /r/math before, it's probably worth a look. I've been looking into simlar areas recently
2016-07-05T03:19:45Z loke: fugue: In Common Lisp you don't iterate by recursion
2016-07-05T03:20:16Z fugue: Well, its a recursive function I need to write for this assignment :P
2016-07-05T03:20:24Z Bike: welcome hell
2016-07-05T03:20:25Z loke: fugue: Lisp has a very powerful LOOP construct that you use for such purposes. Or, you use the various mapping functions.
2016-07-05T03:20:28Z Bike: fugue: code?
2016-07-05T03:20:31Z sharkteeth: the main reason I'm learning lisp is for my own trading (which is my real hobby)
2016-07-05T03:20:32Z fugue: sec, pasting
2016-07-05T03:20:42Z loke: fugue: Well, if your friends asked you to jump off a roof, would you?
2016-07-05T03:20:54Z Bike: depends, how much does this affect my GPA
2016-07-05T03:20:59Z loke: fugue: Using recursion for loops in Common Lisp is simply incorrect
2016-07-05T03:20:59Z fugue: haha
2016-07-05T03:21:08Z sharkteeth: the financial markets are a 24/6 fire hydrant of data and lisp seemed like the best tool to get a handle on it
2016-07-05T03:21:25Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319845
2016-07-05T03:21:39Z sharkteeth: loke: i thought ease of recursion was one of the selling points of lisp? is there a reason it's a bad idea vs iteration?
2016-07-05T03:21:46Z Bike: your indentation is pretty messed up, just fyi
2016-07-05T03:22:12Z loke: sharkteeth: Because Common Lisp doesn't give you tail recursion elimination, so recursion will blow the stack i or at least use excessive amounts of memory.
2016-07-05T03:22:18Z fugue: I apologize for that, I'm a total newbie with LISP. The indentation (for now) just lets me see it a little clearer
2016-07-05T03:22:30Z Bike: sharkteeth: recursion is fine, but assignments like this are extremely artificial. the idea is to show you that loops can be done with recursion, but it seems overbearing
2016-07-05T03:22:46Z Bike: fugue: this doesn't have any calls to subseq?
2016-07-05T03:22:48Z loke: sharkteeth: Recursion is fine when it's warranted, like in a tree-decent algorithm. But using it instead of loops is plain incorrect.
2016-07-05T03:23:00Z sharkteeth: fair enough, thanks
2016-07-05T03:23:03Z fugue: oh my, one sec!
2016-07-05T03:23:58Z NeverDie: Polyphony: You work as a software engineer as well?
2016-07-05T03:24:07Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319846
2016-07-05T03:24:14Z loke: fugue: I've annotated your code with proper formatting:
2016-07-05T03:24:19Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319845#1
2016-07-05T03:24:29Z fugue: loke: thanks!
2016-07-05T03:25:06Z Polyphony: NeverDie: no, I'm very early in school, heading towards a bs in applied math.  I just do hobby programming on the side.
2016-07-05T03:25:10Z loke: fugue: The if null thing is pretty ugly too. I'd rather do it like so:
2016-07-05T03:25:17Z Bike: fugue: okay, so what's an example of arguments you're passing? there's no particular guarantee that prefix and dict have appropriate lengths here
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2016-07-05T03:25:46Z fugue: (lookup '(a b) '( (a b c) (a b c d) (a b c d e) (a a) )
2016-07-05T03:25:53Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319845#2
2016-07-05T03:26:16Z fugue: For my case, it's safe to assume that dict has at least 'list-length prefix' elements
2016-07-05T03:26:34Z sharkteeth: polyphony , you consider applying for gov't jobs with an applied math degree?
2016-07-05T03:27:08Z Bike: fugue: oh. it's that you're calling subseq on dict, rather than (car dict).
2016-07-05T03:27:12Z sharkteeth: (assuming you're U.S.) you should be eligible for internships as well
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2016-07-05T03:27:38Z Bike: fugue: so it iterates as far as dict = ((a a)), at which point dict is a one-element list, so the subseq is an error.
2016-07-05T03:28:02Z fugue: shame
2016-07-05T03:28:05Z fugue: shame
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2016-07-05T03:28:13Z fugue: :[ I feel like a fool
2016-07-05T03:28:15Z Bike: this is also why it's printing (a b c) instead of (a b)
2016-07-05T03:28:53Z fugue: thanks Bike
2016-07-05T03:28:55Z Bike: imagine i said "mistakes are how we learn" except as a cleverer aphorism so it's more memorable
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2016-07-05T03:29:37Z fugue: I'm pretty excited I got my bike in last week, a specialized crosstrail disc. Do you bike, Bike?
2016-07-05T03:29:46Z Polyphony: sharkteeth: I've looked into them a bit... I feel like I need more schooling before I become of any use as an intern though.  Perhaps that's not the best way to go about it though.
2016-07-05T03:30:03Z Bike: sadly no, though i ought to
2016-07-05T03:30:11Z Bike: i just walk everywhere, like a putz
2016-07-05T03:30:28Z loke: fugue: XC MTB?
2016-07-05T03:30:37Z sharkteeth: just apply, Polyphony. Worst case they say no
2016-07-05T03:30:43Z fugue: loke: its a hybrid
2016-07-05T03:30:56Z sharkteeth: best case you'll get to work on a lot of cool projects
2016-07-05T03:30:59Z loke: fugue: I got my new custom bike a couple of weeks ago:
2016-07-05T03:31:05Z fugue: let me see!
2016-07-05T03:31:30Z loke: fugue: https://goo.gl/photos/Xnt874kopN6Zs8E98
2016-07-05T03:31:57Z fugue: Nice
2016-07-05T03:32:15Z loke: custom fabricated titanium frame :-)
2016-07-05T03:32:21Z loke: bought all parts separately.
2016-07-05T03:32:37Z fugue: oh wow, how much did that come out to?
2016-07-05T03:32:46Z loke: fugue: A bit more than expected :-)
2016-07-05T03:32:50Z fugue: ha!
2016-07-05T03:32:59Z loke: about 7000 SGD
2016-07-05T03:33:12Z fugue: Oh my
2016-07-05T03:33:21Z loke: which is about 4666 EUR
2016-07-05T03:33:22Z fugue: I thought I went overboard with $600 USD
2016-07-05T03:33:44Z fugue: this is my first sorta 'real bike'
2016-07-05T03:35:59Z loke: Pics?
2016-07-05T03:37:32Z fugue: http://i.imgur.com/Za7URYe.jpg
2016-07-05T03:39:09Z NeverDie: fugue: All you need is this to go with it: http://www.goruck.com/gr1-black-/p/GEAR-000574
2016-07-05T03:39:39Z fugue: $300!
2016-07-05T03:39:45Z loke: fugue: If I may give one piece of advice:
2016-07-05T03:40:03Z loke: fugue: Spend a few tens of dollars and get more comfortable pedals.
2016-07-05T03:40:21Z NeverDie: fugue: Yeah I've been going back and forth on buying it or not lol.
2016-07-05T03:40:23Z fugue: Do you have any suggestions on pedals?
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2016-07-05T03:40:51Z NeverDie: Since I recently bought a new backpack before I found that one, but it's 40 liters. Something like that 21 liter goruck would be perfect and stylish to go around with in the city.
2016-07-05T03:40:55Z NeverDie: Like for daily use.
2016-07-05T03:41:13Z fugue: Yeah that does look pretty sweet and spacious
2016-07-05T03:41:31Z loke: fugue: Sure. What's your budget?
2016-07-05T03:41:51Z fugue: On pedals? I have no idea, just keep in mind I'm an absolute amateur :]
2016-07-05T03:41:51Z NeverDie: fugue: I mean the goruck is 21 liters. Which is small and nimble for every day city use.
2016-07-05T03:42:16Z loke: fugue: The problem with the ones you have is that they are plastic and becomes slippery and "flexible"
2016-07-05T03:42:45Z fugue: On a side note, I want to compare prefix and subseq of dict, and remove it from dict if they are not equal using this. (remove prefix (subseq (car dict) 0 (list-length prefix)) :test-not #'equal)
2016-07-05T03:42:47Z loke: You want metal pedals with nubs on them that keeps your feet in place. It's an enormous difference.
2016-07-05T03:42:55Z fugue: is there a destructive method so I can return dict?
2016-07-05T03:43:06Z fugue: loke: I did notice my feet sliding to hell off the bike
2016-07-05T03:44:04Z loke: fugue: These are nice: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/wellgo-cnc-platform-b164-flat-pedals/rp-prod85506
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2016-07-05T03:44:46Z fugue: nice
2016-07-05T03:45:14Z NeverDie: loke: Seems like they'd be painful to use barefoot lol.
2016-07-05T03:45:30Z loke: NeverDie: Yes. That's true. You need shoes :-)
2016-07-05T03:45:50Z loke: But the benefit of those nubs are really night and day compared to the ones fugue has now.
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2016-07-05T03:46:42Z fugue: loke: Would they work well with just plain sneakers?
2016-07-05T03:46:57Z loke: fugue: Yes, definitely.
2016-07-05T03:47:13Z loke: fugue: I ride on such pedals with sneakers.
2016-07-05T03:48:19Z loke: fugue: Just go to a bike shop and check what they have. The important thing is that you want metal pedals, which doesn't slip.
2016-07-05T03:49:13Z loke: fugue: From what I can see, the rest is fine on that bike as long as you don't intend to go offroad.
2016-07-05T03:49:49Z fugue: Yeah, probably not any time soon. We have a long highway stretch here and a nice asphalt road alongside
2016-07-05T03:51:17Z loke: fugue: Then you'll be fine. Your tyres are designed for roads. I have been thinking of getting another bike with your kind of tyres for commuting purposes. By MTB is quite bad for that since it's optimised for muddy jungle trails.
2016-07-05T03:54:29Z fugue: Nice, do you often go through muddy jungle trails?
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2016-07-05T03:54:45Z loke: fugue: Every week :-)
2016-07-05T03:54:57Z fugue: Nice, mind if I ask where you live?
2016-07-05T03:55:08Z loke: fugue: Singapore.
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2016-07-05T04:00:16Z loke: fugue: Some random youtube searching found this video with some mud on the Singapore trails: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWLX9G8qyDQ
2016-07-05T04:00:26Z loke: (not my video, I wasn't part of that event)
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2016-07-05T04:01:16Z fugue: If I did anything like that around where I'm from, I'd have a few bears chasing me
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2016-07-05T04:02:07Z loke: Where is that?
2016-07-05T04:02:12Z fugue: Virginia, US
2016-07-05T04:02:52Z loke: fugue: You seem to have quite a few nice ones:
2016-07-05T04:02:53Z loke: http://www.singletracks.com/mountain-bike/best_trails.php?new_state_id=427
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2016-07-05T04:03:02Z loke: woah
2016-07-05T04:03:02Z loke: http://www.singletracks.com/Virginia-bike-trails_44.html
2016-07-05T04:03:44Z fugue: ha
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2016-07-05T04:08:18Z fugue: Can someone help with this syntax?
2016-07-05T04:08:20Z fugue: let ((x '()) )
2016-07-05T04:08:20Z fugue: (defun lookup (prefix dict ret)
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2016-07-05T04:08:42Z fugue: I'm trying to have an empty list X that I can append to within the function (recursively)
2016-07-05T04:09:04Z fugue: So the prof said we can have our functions within 'let' and we'd be able to achieve this
2016-07-05T04:09:24Z fugue: Keep hitting this: debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-VARIABLE: The variable LET is unbound.
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2016-07-05T04:09:35Z fugue: OH
2016-07-05T04:09:59Z fugue: of course missing (
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2016-07-05T04:41:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-05T04:41:47Z fugue: good morning
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2016-07-05T04:50:58Z John[Lisbeth]: So I've been thinking alot about how nothing particularly makes a lisp a lisp, but this is hard to reconcile with the claim that any lisp can do what any other liso can do.
2016-07-05T04:51:44Z John[Lisbeth]: The way I understand it is lisp's compiler is a repl changeable any way at any time, so in theory common lisp could pick up any feature that say shen or clojure has
2016-07-05T04:52:24Z John[Lisbeth]: But I am wondering if that's not just because cl is turing complete
2016-07-05T04:53:38Z Bike: there are plenty of things you can't modify lisp's compiler to do.
2016-07-05T04:53:46Z John[Lisbeth]: For example common lisp cold create an enviroent that within that environment everything had strict typing and type checking, but I feel a c programmer would say that environment is heavily bootstrapped
2016-07-05T04:53:59Z Polyphony left #lisp
2016-07-05T04:54:39Z fugue: Can someone help me get line 12 to add (car dict) to X ?
2016-07-05T04:54:54Z fugue: I've been stck on this for some time now :/
2016-07-05T04:54:55Z Bike: line twelve of what?
2016-07-05T04:55:01Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319852
2016-07-05T04:55:04Z fugue: That may help ^
2016-07-05T04:55:31Z fugue: Line 17 can be ignored, i will remove
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2016-07-05T04:56:02Z Bike: i don't know what this does or what it's supposed to do
2016-07-05T04:56:04Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319852#1
2016-07-05T04:56:45Z fugue: This is the same function, takes 2 params lookup '(a b) '( (a b c) (a b c d) (d e f) ). if the second list starts with (a b) its supposed to add it to a list
2016-07-05T04:56:50Z fugue: I can only get it to print right now
2016-07-05T04:57:04Z Bike: so, first off, do not pass quoted data to nconc
2016-07-05T04:57:39Z fugue: It was an attempted I failed at. I've also tried append with no luck
2016-07-05T04:58:12Z Bike: you said "add it to a list". is this list supposed to be returned, or what?
2016-07-05T04:58:22Z fugue: Yep, returned as a list
2016-07-05T04:58:33Z fugue: * (lookup '(a b) '((a b c) (a b d e) (d e f) (a b a b) ))
2016-07-05T04:58:33Z fugue: (A B C)
2016-07-05T04:58:33Z fugue: (A B D E)
2016-07-05T04:58:34Z fugue: (A B A B)
2016-07-05T04:59:06Z Bike: you mean it should return ((a b c) (a b d e) (a b a b))?
2016-07-05T04:59:14Z fugue: Yeah
2016-07-05T04:59:20Z Bike: does order matter?
2016-07-05T04:59:24Z fugue: No
2016-07-05T04:59:53Z Bike: ok, so you shouldn't use nconc or append or anything.
2016-07-05T05:00:04Z fugue: Why isn't cons working?
2016-07-05T05:00:35Z Bike: it looks like you're just calling (cons element x). that just makes a new cons and returns it. it doesn't affect x in any way.
2016-07-05T05:01:11Z Bike: to modify x you should use setf.
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2016-07-05T05:01:39Z beach: Wow, that code is pretty bad looking.
2016-07-05T05:01:57Z fugue: Yeah its pretty bad :/
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2016-07-05T05:02:22Z beach: fugue: It is very impolite to submit badly formatted code for others to read.
2016-07-05T05:02:49Z beach: fugue: You force them to count parentheses, whereas Common Lisp programmers use indentation to determine control flow.
2016-07-05T05:03:45Z fugue: I apologize. If it helps any, the close parens do match the opening parens
2016-07-05T05:04:03Z beach: That doesn't help.  The indentation is wrong.
2016-07-05T05:04:16Z beach: fugue: read your code into Emacs+SLIME, indent it correctly, and then resubmit.
2016-07-05T05:04:43Z beach: fugue: And no whitespace after ( or before ) so no ) on a line by itself.
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2016-07-05T05:08:33Z adhoc[]: beach: is there style guide doco ? i've noticed quite varied indentation/styles abound
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2016-07-05T05:09:16Z beach: adhoc[]: I seriously doubt that you will find a lot of variation in indentation style by experienced Common Lisp programmers.
2016-07-05T05:09:33Z beach: adhoc[]: Usually, the slime-indentation contribution does it right.
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2016-07-05T05:11:21Z adhoc[]: beach: variation, i'm ceratinly not an experienced CL programmer, but i see it out there. genrally use emacs autoformat.
2016-07-05T05:11:59Z alchmzt: 8spaces per tab
2016-07-05T05:12:18Z beach: alchmzt: How is that important?
2016-07-05T05:12:23Z adhoc[]: what are these "tabs" ?
2016-07-05T05:13:40Z alchmzt is attempting to incidte tabs vs spaces holy war
2016-07-05T05:14:26Z fugue: Bike: where would you use setf?
2016-07-05T05:14:41Z beach: http://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~idurand/enseignement/PFS/Common/Strandh-Tutorial/indentation.html
2016-07-05T05:15:05Z beach: adhoc[]: Some rules ↑
2016-07-05T05:15:49Z pillton: Hmmm. "Generic functions must not be used for "overloading", i.e. simply to use the same name for two entirely unrelated types."
2016-07-05T05:15:52Z beach: adhoc[]: But no sane programmer would look at such a guide and indent manually according to it.  They would use slime-indentation instead.
2016-07-05T05:16:06Z adhoc[]: thats handy, thank you =)
2016-07-05T05:16:08Z pillton is reading the Google style guide.
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2016-07-05T05:16:43Z adhoc[]: beach: things like the hanging vs trailing ')'s isn't obvious
2016-07-05T05:16:52Z adhoc[]: well, wasn't to me =)
2016-07-05T05:17:13Z Bike: fugue: where you intend to modify x, i.e. add on a matching element.
2016-07-05T05:17:29Z Bike: fugue: by the way, x is kind of a piss name. you could call it "accumulator" or "result" or something at least.
2016-07-05T05:17:31Z beach: adhoc[]: There is nothing "obvious" about programming.  It is about communication, and you learn the conventions by participating in that communication.
2016-07-05T05:18:32Z adhoc[]: beach: indeed.
2016-07-05T05:18:45Z beach: adhoc[]: What fugue is doing is like trying to write fiction without having read anything written by others.
2016-07-05T05:18:51Z adhoc[]: does take a little while to grok the convention =)
2016-07-05T05:19:01Z beach: Yes, 10000 hours they say.
2016-07-05T05:19:08Z beach: Some say 10 years.
2016-07-05T05:19:14Z beach: Same order of magnitude.
2016-07-05T05:19:32Z adhoc[]: thats fair enough, we get to specialize in different things
2016-07-05T05:21:01Z pillton: Does anyone know what a MOP "intercessory" operation is?
2016-07-05T05:21:27Z beach: pillton: Where did you see that term?
2016-07-05T05:21:50Z pillton: beach: https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml?showone=CLOS#CLOS
2016-07-05T05:22:04Z pillton: Fourth paragraph from the end.
2016-07-05T05:23:10Z beach: I have no idea.  You should ask Fare.
2016-07-05T05:24:10Z pillton: Here it is. http://franz.com/services/conferences_seminars/jlugm00/conference/Talk02_deLacaze1.pdf
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2016-07-05T05:24:43Z pillton: From what I remember, AMOP defines three layers: Syntax, Glue and Object.
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2016-07-05T05:26:22Z beach: I don't recall seeing that terminology in the AMOP book.  But I could easily have forgotten.
2016-07-05T05:30:06Z phadthai: hmm http://unknownlamer.org/muse/Metaobject%20Protocols.html#sec16
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2016-07-05T05:54:31Z PuercoPop: pillton: I would take intercessory as something that changes/creates
2016-07-05T05:54:57Z PuercoPop: the AMOP talks about two important properties introspection and intercession
2016-07-05T05:55:23Z PuercoPop: so like find-class is introspection and ensure-class is intercession
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2016-07-05T05:56:33Z PuercoPop: ah I haven't seen that link, thanks phadthai!
2016-07-05T05:56:42Z phadthai: me neither before today
2016-07-05T05:59:56Z beach: pillton: PuercoPop is right.  On page 71, the AMOP discusses intercessory protocols.
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2016-07-05T06:11:41Z pillton: Well there you go.
2016-07-05T06:12:05Z pillton: It seems strange to discourage the use of ensure-class.
2016-07-05T06:12:14Z pillton: ...and friends.
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2016-07-05T07:31:35Z DavidGu: Hi everyone, I have an interesting problem about 'dolist' behavior in different implementations
2016-07-05T07:31:41Z DavidGu: https://gist.github.com/macdavid313/8c83a12b86cc839af77bd7035624901e
2016-07-05T07:33:01Z DavidGu: I occasionally found this, and I did check the macro expansions, still couldn't tell why
2016-07-05T07:33:03Z Bike: "It is implementation-dependent whether dolist establishes a new binding of var on each iteration or whether it establishes a binding for var once at the beginning and then assigns it on any subsequent iterations."
2016-07-05T07:33:54Z Bike: if all the lambdas use the same binding they'll all return the same thing. if there's a new binding for every iteration (probably another LET in the expansion) they'll be different.
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2016-07-05T07:34:43Z DavidGu: Aha, now I see
2016-07-05T07:34:54Z DavidGu: Bike: thanks very much
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2016-07-05T10:32:11Z schjetne: I have some classes that are meant to be immutable except in the initialization phase of my program, so I'm uneasy about exporting accessors for general use. What are some good ways to go about this?
2016-07-05T10:32:14Z schjetne: I'm considering either putting initialization code in the same package as the classes (poor separation of concerns) or defining both readers and accessors and re-exporting from different packages (verbose)
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2016-07-05T10:35:08Z schjetne: Or third, making everything setf-able (a temptation to abuse in the future, introducing bugs)
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2016-07-05T10:40:16Z loke: schjetne: Well, two options:
2016-07-05T10:40:37Z loke: schjetne: 1) Don't export the accessors so that they are only visible from within the local package
2016-07-05T10:41:02Z loke: schjetne: 2) Use SETF of SLOT-VALUE to access the values, instead of the accessors
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2016-07-05T10:44:06Z schjetne: Here's what I'm leaning towards: packages :foo, :foo.model, :foo.init. :foo.model exports both readers and accessors, which are used by :foo.init
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2016-07-05T10:44:29Z schjetne: :foo only exports safe methods from :foo.model
2016-07-05T10:44:46Z schjetne: Which will be the API for the whole system
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2016-07-05T10:46:15Z schjetne: It has the added advantage of any implementation changes in foo.model won't have to be reflected in foo.init since I won't be using (SETF SLOT-VALUE)
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2016-07-05T10:48:47Z schjetne: loke: thanks for the input!
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2016-07-05T11:18:29Z Grue``: I would use something like with-slots internally and export readers
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2016-07-05T11:37:05Z schjetne: Grue``: then I'd need to export slot names instead
2016-07-05T11:37:18Z schjetne: Given that I want to keep the initialization code in its own package
2016-07-05T11:38:06Z Grue``: that sounds painful
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2016-07-05T11:40:57Z scholarlyaspirat: Hi
2016-07-05T11:41:53Z scholarlyaspirat: My question is: would lisp be still relevant in current a.i. development
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2016-07-05T11:43:41Z scholarlyaspirat: I mean, current libraries aren't lisp based. So is there any use learning lisp might provide
2016-07-05T11:43:56Z scholarlyaspirat: Everyone talks about lisp. I was curious
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2016-07-05T11:44:55Z schjetne: Grue``: the initialization code is responsible for reading from very specific files. I don't want that cluttering up my nice, clean model package.
2016-07-05T11:48:45Z schjetne: schoppenhauer: Give it a try and see if you like it. It's a general-purpose language, it's not just for AI. Here's a good intro: http://lisp-lang.org
2016-07-05T11:49:06Z schjetne: sorry, meant the guy who just quit
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2016-07-05T12:40:50Z Grue``: in the first place, I wouldn't design an object in such a way that making an instance of it causes file reads
2016-07-05T12:44:04Z dxtr: What library would you recommend for parsing and generating XML?
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2016-07-05T12:45:10Z Xach: dxtr: I have been happy with cxml.
2016-07-05T12:45:27Z dxtr: And it can generate XML too?
2016-07-05T12:47:16Z dxtr: Oh yeah it can. Neat.
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2016-07-05T12:54:35Z Xach: dxtr: the main downside for me is I can never internalize the rules, so i refer to the docs+tutorial often. but they are pretty good so it's not a big deal.
2016-07-05T12:54:47Z dxtr: Right
2016-07-05T12:55:11Z dxtr: Well it's gonna be a whole lot of XML parsing if I get anywhere with this project :p
2016-07-05T12:57:34Z schjetne: Grue``: it doesn't. But the code that does read from files need to mutate the objects as it creates them. And that code decidedly does not belong with the definitions of the object classes and methods.
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2016-07-05T13:01:19Z jason_m: minion: memo for rumbler31: As you noticed, the type-specifier is not a keyword.  I annotated your paste with what I get in ccl with default compiler settings.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/319836#1
2016-07-05T13:01:19Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rumbler31 when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-07-05T13:01:19Z minion: jason_m, memo from rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319836 does not produce error
2016-07-05T13:01:19Z minion: jason_m, memo from rumbler31: ok, when the :type is string, not :string, I can reproduce the rror
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2016-07-05T13:04:48Z okflo: \who
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2016-07-05T13:13:58Z stilda: In C++ I have a possibility to create objects on stack. Is there anything like this in lisp? When I do (let ((a 10)) ..) is it going to be heap allocated or put on stack?
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2016-07-05T13:16:50Z _death: stilda: it's implementation-dependent.. you can also check out dynamic-extent declaration
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2016-07-05T13:34:25Z stilda: I am trying to understand when heap allocation is happening. (Apart from those standard scenarios when heap should be used that I know from standard languages).
2016-07-05T13:35:50Z stilda: Functions seems to do heap allocation for argument list in some cases. This is very unusual to me.
2016-07-05T13:36:21Z Xach: stilda: what prompts the curiosity?
2016-07-05T13:36:38Z Xach: stilda: in many situations, it is not necessary to care.
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2016-07-05T13:38:42Z stilda: Xach: just want to understand where garbage comes from. I understand I have to use heap when do not know the size of memory chunk at compile time.
2016-07-05T13:38:57Z Xach: well, when a program and an allocator love each other very much...
2016-07-05T13:39:43Z Xach: stilda: fair enough. i hope the desire to understand does not stand in the way of doing things too much.
2016-07-05T13:40:02Z stilda: heap allocation at each function call. is it true?
2016-07-05T13:40:08Z Xach: stilda: no.
2016-07-05T13:40:44Z Xach: stilda: well, it could be true - implementations have freedom. but implementations generally work hard to do good things for performance.
2016-07-05T13:41:24Z stilda: good. No, I do not have any problems with performance at the moment.
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2016-07-05T13:42:13Z stilda: It is just that I more or less understand how c/c++ works, but lisp is a black box in this regard for me.
2016-07-05T13:42:34Z stilda: good, thank you Xach
2016-07-05T13:43:13Z Xach: stilda: much of the time, you can continue to treat it as a black box. i understand there are times when you have to open the box, but they may be less often than you think if you are used to other models.
2016-07-05T13:43:48Z Xach: it is not bad to understand, unless the quest for understanding completely blocks all other progress
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2016-07-05T13:45:11Z _death: clhs disassemble
2016-07-05T13:45:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_disass.htm
2016-07-05T13:45:18Z stilda: I have recently read "The roots of lisp" which talks about beautiful  property of being able to write interpreter of a language with a very small number of primitives using the same primitives.
2016-07-05T13:46:17Z stilda: I do not understand how this impact the lisp, what are the consecuences of this and why it is importent.
2016-07-05T13:46:26Z stilda: I do not understand how this impact the lisp, what are the consecuences of this and why it is important.
2016-07-05T13:47:04Z stilda: Is there any reading explaining why is it so great?
2016-07-05T13:47:27Z jdz: time from concept to a working program is minimal?
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2016-07-05T13:50:17Z stilda: jdz: how is it related?
2016-07-05T13:51:26Z jdz: how is it not related?
2016-07-05T13:51:55Z jdz: i have no idea about "the roots of lisp" you mention, though
2016-07-05T13:52:27Z jdz: but "being able to do something" with "already provided building blocks" sounds like a lot of saved time
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2016-07-05T13:52:38Z loke`: Good evening Lisp
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2016-07-05T13:54:34Z Xach: hi loke`
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2016-07-05T13:56:49Z loke`: Hello Xach
2016-07-05T13:58:27Z loke` will be travelling to Europe tomorrow
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2016-07-05T14:01:37Z rumbler31: stilda: a similar question would be "what property about c++ that makes writing a compiler difficult is valueable?"
2016-07-05T14:01:37Z minion: rumbler31, memo from jason_m: As you noticed, the type-specifier is not a keyword.  I annotated your paste with what I get in ccl with default compiler settings.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/319836#1
2016-07-05T14:01:44Z jdz: loke`: any plans to visit London (which still is part of Europe)?
2016-07-05T14:01:50Z rumbler31: Hi Xach
2016-07-05T14:02:01Z Xach: Hello rumbler31
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2016-07-05T14:04:29Z Xach: loke`: secret lisp conference?
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2016-07-05T14:05:08Z rumbler31: Xach: I was making changes to a system obtained via quicklisp "in place", and I wish to carry those changes oveer to a new computer and continue working with them.  the new computer already has this system downloaded via quicklisp.  If I simply stuff the modified version into local-projects, will it get picked up in place of the already installed version? or do I need to do
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2016-07-05T14:05:33Z Xach: rumbler31: things in local-projects will be loaded before anything quicklisp provides
2016-07-05T14:05:52Z Xach: rumbler31: i think it is not good to modify things like you have done, though. better to copy it to local-projects first.
2016-07-05T14:05:54Z loke`: Xach: not really :-)
2016-07-05T14:06:01Z Xach: rumbler31: there is too great a risk of losing the changes otherwise
2016-07-05T14:06:09Z loke`: Xach: Going to Paris for work, and spending some days in Sweden to see old friends
2016-07-05T14:06:34Z rumbler31: Xach:  I see that I should have started that way.  thank you
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2016-07-05T14:17:34Z knobo1: in bordeaux-threads a recursive lock is a lock that can be aquired multiple times by the same thread, right?
2016-07-05T14:17:50Z knobo1: and not much more then that?
2016-07-05T14:18:13Z stilda: jdz: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.ps
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2016-07-05T14:19:07Z loke`: knobo1: Yes
2016-07-05T14:20:32Z knobo1: I'm debugging a bug in log4cl on abcl.
2016-07-05T14:20:42Z knobo1: And I think I have found a solution.
2016-07-05T14:20:59Z knobo1: But I don't 100% understand what is going on.
2016-07-05T14:21:05Z loke`: knobo1: I'm using log4cl, and I've been trying to port Potato to ABCL. Should I be concerned about this bug?
2016-07-05T14:21:37Z knobo1: loke`: not unless you are doing more then simple configuration.
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2016-07-05T14:22:22Z loke`: knobo1: Wha consitutes "simple"? I use a rotating log writer and simply set various log levels for the different modules.
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2016-07-05T14:23:40Z knobo1: loke`: I'll show you how to reproduce the bug, and what I've done to fix it.
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2016-07-05T14:23:48Z knobo1: just a minute.
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2016-07-05T14:26:57Z knobo1: loke`: https://github.com/knobo/log4cl/commit/47e28e46ecca972a7a6126be76558c5386f7eb56
2016-07-05T14:27:09Z knobo1: Check if you have the same problem
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2016-07-05T14:32:42Z knobo1: loke`: I would need to test log4cl a bit, to see that everthing is ok.
2016-07-05T14:32:42Z loke`: knobo1: When I try your command, I get this:
2016-07-05T14:32:42Z loke`: "The value of BORDEAUX-THREADS::LOCK is #S(BORDEAUX-THREADS::MUTEX :NAME "Anonymous lock" :LOCK #<java.util.concurrent.locks.ReentrantLock java.util.concurrent.locks.Reent.... {4B60760C}>), which is not of type BORDEAUX-THREADS::MUTEX-RECURSIVE."
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2016-07-05T14:46:16Z loke`: Woah, something has happened to ABCL recently. Potato now runs flawlessly as long as I disable websocket
2016-07-05T14:46:21Z loke`: Pretty cool this
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2016-07-05T14:54:42Z knobo1: loke`: what is potato?
2016-07-05T14:55:08Z eudoxia: a slack clone
2016-07-05T14:55:30Z eudoxia: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato
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2016-07-05T14:55:54Z loke`: thanks eudoxia :-)
2016-07-05T14:56:10Z loke`: Anyway, the point was that ABCL has no problem running what is a quite complex application.
2016-07-05T14:56:18Z loke`: I should run the throughput tests.
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2016-07-05T15:31:55Z isoraqathedh: Maybe I'm mapping too much: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319874
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2016-07-05T15:53:19Z knobo1: isoraqathedh: you can do several things in one loop instead of mapping over the same list several times.
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2016-07-05T15:59:03Z knobo1: loke`: but you did not have any trouble with log4cl on abcl before?
2016-07-05T15:59:24Z loke`: knobo1: None. And still don't.
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2016-07-05T18:52:42Z fugue: is there a good way to determine if '(b c) is a part of '(a b c) or '(b c d e) ?
2016-07-05T18:52:56Z fugue: Or which way? I am trying to make use of member with no luck
2016-07-05T18:53:15Z fugue: I pretty much have a list '(b c) and a list of lists (flat) '( (b c d) (a b c) ... )
2016-07-05T18:54:14Z _z: subsetp
2016-07-05T18:55:23Z fugue: _z: awesome, thanks
2016-07-05T18:55:36Z _z: np
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2016-07-05T19:00:34Z knobo1: fugue: depends on what you want to do. From example (search '(b c) '(b c d e)) could be the right example, not subsetp.
2016-07-05T19:01:07Z fugue: I need to return a list of all lists containing that subset
2016-07-05T19:02:43Z _z: you can build that list recursively using subsetp
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2016-07-05T19:14:35Z Grue`: please don't build list recursively, use remove-if-not instead
2016-07-05T19:15:05Z _z: i was also thinking about that
2016-07-05T19:15:10Z fugue: remove-if-not??
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2016-07-05T19:15:19Z _z: why not build lists recursively?
2016-07-05T19:15:24Z fugue: is that destructive?
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2016-07-05T19:16:28Z fugue: I'm going to paste my horribly formatted code. But its ideal for me to see what's going on as I'm a complete newbie
2016-07-05T19:16:50Z fugue: _z or Grue` can you show? http://paste.lisp.org/display/319882
2016-07-05T19:19:26Z pjb: (list (tailp '(b c) '(a b c)) (tailp '(a b c) '(b c)) (let ((tail '(b c))) (tailp tail (cons 'a tail)))) #| --> (nil nil t) |#
2016-07-05T19:19:30Z Bike: remove-if-not is not destructive
2016-07-05T19:19:39Z pjb: fugue: ^
2016-07-05T19:19:40Z Grue`: there's so much wrong with this, are you reading any lisp books?
2016-07-05T19:19:52Z Grue`: because you probably should
2016-07-05T19:19:54Z fugue: We don't have any lisp books, only power point slides
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2016-07-05T19:20:01Z Bike: your class sucks
2016-07-05T19:20:07Z Bike: fugue: you have two different x's, and there's no reason for this to be a closure anyway
2016-07-05T19:20:18Z fugue: It does, its a summer session squashed in 4.5 weeks
2016-07-05T19:20:24Z Bike: you might want to read PCL or gentle introduction or something
2016-07-05T19:20:50Z fugue: And quite frankly, this is a 400 level class they provided in the summer time which I need to graduate, else I would not have taken AI
2016-07-05T19:21:12Z _z: i hope you dont end up hating lisp
2016-07-05T19:21:20Z fugue: I already do, haha
2016-07-05T19:21:20Z Bike: i sympathize
2016-07-05T19:21:39Z _z: fugue: hate the teaching method
2016-07-05T19:21:46Z fugue: Is anyone able to tell what i'm tryign to do with my paste?
2016-07-05T19:21:51Z Bike: yeah
2016-07-05T19:22:13Z fugue: the subset to find is '(f u n)
2016-07-05T19:22:21Z Grue`: kind of, it's push/reverse method except without reverse
2016-07-05T19:22:31Z Bike: try (defun find-fun (list) (loop for elem in list when (subsetp '(f u n) elem) collect elem))
2016-07-05T19:22:54Z fugue: Bike: no!
2016-07-05T19:22:59Z Bike: no?
2016-07-05T19:23:01Z fugue: that's just not fair
2016-07-05T19:23:09Z Bike: sorry?
2016-07-05T19:23:33Z fugue: Hah, I'm just kidding. I spend all this time scratching and pulling my hair...
2016-07-05T19:23:51Z Bike: i've been doing this for a while
2016-07-05T19:24:00Z Bike: anyway you might want to try it with the push collect method anyway
2016-07-05T19:24:29Z Bike: if you do, the first thing you need to fix is that you have two different bindings for 'x', one of which is supposed to be the argument and one of which is supposed to be the accumulator.
2016-07-05T19:24:31Z fugue: Yah that method looks like it does exactly what its supposed to
2016-07-05T19:24:43Z fugue: oh, I did not even realize I did that
2016-07-05T19:24:47Z Bike: this is one reason actually naming your variables is nice. we're not mathematicians, we can use more than one letter
2016-07-05T19:25:06Z _z: if you dont need it to be recursive: http://ix.io/10Hd
2016-07-05T19:25:23Z Bike: secondly you need to actually return the accumulated list. thirdly you need to reconsider making this a closure.
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2016-07-05T19:25:40Z Bike: if you work out those little things it should work fine.
2016-07-05T19:25:48Z fugue: Is there a gentle intro any of you guys recommend?
2016-07-05T19:25:55Z _z: lol
2016-07-05T19:26:08Z fugue: _z: by gentle intro I mean gentle
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2016-07-05T19:26:41Z pjb: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
2016-07-05T19:26:46Z _z: im only laughing because of the appropriately named book
2016-07-05T19:26:54Z fugue: oh lol
2016-07-05T19:27:00Z _z: see above
2016-07-05T19:27:31Z Bike: the other book is PCL, but the P is "practical" so it spends less time on this list shuffling nonsense
2016-07-05T19:28:16Z fugue: The good news is, I have now finished 7/8 exercises. The bad news is, I have 1 more to go :)
2016-07-05T19:28:26Z fugue: I'll see if I can snag that book up from barnes n nobles on my way home
2016-07-05T19:28:31Z fugue: If not, i'll have to grab an e-copy
2016-07-05T19:28:46Z Grue`: it's free to read
2016-07-05T19:28:54Z _z: gentle intro is slow if you're not absolutely new to programming
2016-07-05T19:29:17Z Bike: it's free online yeah
2016-07-05T19:29:22Z fugue: oh what do you know
2016-07-05T19:29:22Z fugue: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf
2016-07-05T19:29:39Z _z: yes that was linked above
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2016-07-05T19:30:32Z fugue: Nice thanks. Do uh, any of you guys write LISP for a living?
2016-07-05T19:31:33Z pjb: (defun find-fun (list) (loop for elem in list when (subsetp '(f u n) elem) collect elem)) (find-fun '((e n o u g h) (i n f i n i t u d e))) #| --> ((i n f i n i t u d e)) |#
2016-07-05T19:31:39Z pjb: fugue: is this what you want?
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2016-07-05T19:31:51Z _z: dont think anyone stylizes it like 'LISP' anymore, use 'Lisp' - a bit of a nitpick.
2016-07-05T19:31:57Z pjb: (we try to write lisp for a living, but customers don't always agree).
2016-07-05T19:32:20Z Grue`: i only write it for fun
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2016-07-05T19:33:29Z fugue: pjb: if it was (i n f u n i t u d e)
2016-07-05T19:33:48Z pjb: but (f u n) is a subset of (i n f i n i t u d e).
2016-07-05T19:33:58Z pjb: if you don't want a subset, why do you use subsetp?
2016-07-05T19:34:51Z fugue: that may be an issue
2016-07-05T19:34:55Z fugue: I guess I'm after sublist
2016-07-05T19:35:01Z pjb: above you've been suggested to use SEARCH instead.   (defun find-fun (list) (loop for elem in list when (search '(f u n) elem) collect elem))  (find-fun '((e n o u g h) (i n f i n i t u d e) (i n f u n i t u d e))) #| --> ((i n f u n i t u d e)) |#
2016-07-05T19:35:26Z pjb: fugue: a sublist is a list in a list. It's not a subsequence.  search searches for subsequences.
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2016-07-05T19:36:00Z pjb: fugue: the trick here is that in Common Lisp, lists are sequences.  strings are vectors, vectors are sequences. (also vectors are arrays).
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2016-07-05T19:36:47Z pjb: fugue: so you can do (search "fun" "infunitude") #| --> 2 |#   or (search #(f u n) #(f u n n y)) #| --> 0 |#  or (search '(f u n) '(o f u n n)) #| --> 1 |#
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2016-07-05T19:38:04Z pjb: fugue: you can also do (search "fun" '(#\i #\n #\f #\u #\n #\i #\t)) #| --> 2 |#
2016-07-05T19:38:36Z fugue: what is it returning there?
2016-07-05T19:39:26Z pjb: clhs search
2016-07-05T19:39:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_search.htm
2016-07-05T19:39:35Z pjb: the position of the found subsequence.
2016-07-05T19:39:49Z pjb: (search "fun" "not") #| --> nil |#  or nil.
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2016-07-05T20:38:31Z fugue: alright, I am converting a list in hex to decimal using this rule: multiply first digit by 16, add second digit, multiply result by 16 add third digit, and so on
2016-07-05T20:38:59Z Bike: the usual, sure
2016-07-05T20:39:16Z fugue: '(A 2 C) would be: (10*16 + 2)*16 + 12
2016-07-05T20:39:56Z fugue: I've got a hashtable set up to check if gethash elem exists, use its value,if not use the element
2016-07-05T20:40:10Z fugue: 	(loop for elem in list do (if (null (gethash elem hashmap))
2016-07-05T20:40:30Z fugue: kinda stuck on the actual arithmetic
2016-07-05T20:40:35Z fugue: (setf result (+ result ( * 16 elem)))
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2016-07-05T20:41:29Z Bike: that's backwards from what you explained in english. it's (setf result (+ (* 16 result) elem)), no? going from left to right.
2016-07-05T20:43:20Z fugue: Bike: can you explain to me how you broke that down and constructed it
2016-07-05T20:44:06Z Bike: um. it's literally just what you said. "multiply result by 16 [and then] add third digit"
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2016-07-05T21:01:52Z dim: (parse-integer (format nil "~{~a~}" '(A 2 C)) :radix 16) gives 2604
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2016-07-05T21:05:20Z dim: (loop with base = 16 with digits = '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F) for digit in '(A 2 C) for number = (position digit digits) then (+ (position digit digits) (* base number)) finally (return number)) gives the same answer
2016-07-05T21:06:05Z dim: can be spelled with digits = '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F) with base = (length digits)
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2016-07-05T21:09:34Z dim: and doing that a million times over in CCL takes  (0.256276 seconds) to run
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2016-07-05T21:20:21Z Polyphony: Are there any very popular alternatives to format in common lisp for simple user input/output or should I just put in the time to learn format?
2016-07-05T21:21:17Z Bike: you can just use the writing functions
2016-07-05T21:21:22Z pierpa: you don't need to learn at once the more exotheric parts of format
2016-07-05T21:22:07Z oGMo: bookmark the format page, remember ~A, ~S, ~X, ~B, and ~%, and you'll probably be good
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2016-07-05T21:30:36Z fugue: Question folks, I have a ton of functions that I want to write a wrapper and execute each with some test data, what's the best way I should do this?
2016-07-05T21:30:56Z fugue: Each function will get tested at least 5 times
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2016-07-05T21:32:34Z _death: (defun execute-with-some-test-data (functions test-data) (dolist (fn functions) (apply fn test-data)))
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2016-07-05T21:34:44Z fugue: _death: what if the test data differs from function to function
2016-07-05T21:35:01Z Bike: write out the calls?
2016-07-05T21:35:08Z _death: well, maybe you need to specify your problem better
2016-07-05T21:35:34Z fugue: _death: thats true as well
2016-07-05T21:35:44Z fugue: Bike: just a function with a big list of calls?
2016-07-05T21:36:15Z Bike: well, if the arguments for each call are different, you have to put all that data somewhere
2016-07-05T21:36:23Z Bike: could just be source text, could be a hash table, i dunno what you want
2016-07-05T21:36:48Z fugue: aye
2016-07-05T21:39:30Z fugue: Question on closures and testing, I have this: (let ((z 0)) (defun f (x) (setq z (max z x))))
2016-07-05T21:39:57Z fugue: (f 10) = 10 (f 20) = 20 (f 1) = 20, how am I to reset the value Z to 0?
2016-07-05T21:40:16Z _death: you can have another defun inside the let that does that
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2016-07-05T21:40:54Z _death: or, you could use another approach, say (defstruct state (z 0)) (defun f (x state) ...) ...
2016-07-05T21:42:30Z _death: if you still want conciseness when calling you could have say (defvar *state* (make-state)) (defun f (x &key (state *state*)) ...)
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2016-07-05T21:53:55Z fugue: Is there someway I can print a blank line? (print "\n") is a no go
2016-07-05T21:54:37Z Bike: you mean go to the next line? (terpri)
2016-07-05T21:55:15Z Bike: lisp syntax uses backslashes just for escaping, rather than escaping and also making different characters entirely
2016-07-05T21:56:04Z pierpa: also (fresh-line), (princ #\Newline), (format t "~%")
2016-07-05T21:56:25Z fugue: ooo fresh-line is nice
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2016-07-05T21:57:02Z pierpa: at least has a more discoverable name than TERPRI :)
2016-07-05T21:57:12Z fugue: yeah!
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2016-07-05T21:57:33Z pierpa: TERPRI = TERminate PRInt, btw
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2016-07-05T22:04:17Z fugue: thanks pierpa, Bike
2016-07-05T22:04:46Z _death: fresh-line is different..
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2016-07-05T22:20:43Z rumbler31: if you can somehow put the elements in the list into a string, you can simply read it in with the #x reader macro
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2016-07-05T22:21:42Z Bike: or just call parse integer, but somebody already said that.
2016-07-05T22:22:00Z rumbler31: <- is late to the party
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2016-07-05T22:23:12Z rumbler31: i'm working in javascript right now because I don't have a choice, and so much has changed since the last time I got into it that I have the sneaking suspicion that next time I go to upgrade it I'll have to rewrite it because it will have changed yet again
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2016-07-06T00:47:00Z Polyphony: anybody know how I could write the (prompt) function shown here? codepad.org/y5ydy1e0
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2016-07-06T00:47:39Z Polyphony: i've been fooling around with format on and off for what seems like forever...
2016-07-06T00:48:29Z Bike: link 404s
2016-07-06T00:49:38Z Polyphony: sorry, codepad.org/UCnBAUto
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2016-07-06T00:53:00Z Bike: ok, so... what do you want it to do, exactly?
2016-07-06T00:54:20Z Polyphony: Just prompt the user for some input and return what gets read in as a symbol
2016-07-06T00:54:59Z Bike: (format t string) (read)?
2016-07-06T00:55:17Z Bike: er, no. (write-string string) (fresh-line) (read), more like.
2016-07-06T00:55:30Z Polyphony: showing the other function isn't necessary, i just included it to show that I can't have it print "something something \n" then ask for input
2016-07-06T00:55:39Z Polyphony: I'll go try those out, thanks
2016-07-06T00:58:10Z Polyphony: is there a function similar to fresh-line that just flushes stdout without starting a new line?
2016-07-06T00:58:55Z sharkteeth: i think there's a (force-output) method
2016-07-06T00:59:02Z sharkteeth: i used it recently let me look it up
2016-07-06T00:59:14Z Bike: flushes any buffers, you mean? yeah, finish-output or force-output.
2016-07-06T00:59:21Z sharkteeth: (force-output t) ?
2016-07-06T00:59:45Z sharkteeth: i think i just used (force-output) with no arguments but i can't remember
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2016-07-06T01:00:17Z Polyphony: I've been trying to do this with format, which might be possible, but I wasn't seeing it lol
2016-07-06T01:00:33Z Bike: it is not in format.
2016-07-06T01:01:03Z Bike: format doesn't control streams that way. you can't use it to change where you are in a file and such either.
2016-07-06T01:03:09Z Polyphony: makes sense, I was just used to printf in C which has more control over newline characters, and the comma in python 2.x's print "text", syntax
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2016-07-06T01:04:17Z Polyphony: so I've just been searching around for something like (flush) or (flush-stream) to no avail.  Thanks for the help, works perfectly
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2016-07-06T01:05:32Z pierpa: what do you mean "control over newline character"?
2016-07-06T01:05:44Z pierpa: you have newlines with format too
2016-07-06T01:05:48Z pierpa: *you can have
2016-07-06T01:06:07Z Bike: printf can't do fflush either, unless i'm quite mistaken.
2016-07-06T01:06:23Z Polyphony: well, without explicitly entering '\n' it won't print a new line.  Format has plenty of control for sure
2016-07-06T01:06:29Z Bike: a newline in format is ~%
2016-07-06T01:06:56Z Polyphony: but I needed an anti-newline! it was printing one when I didn't want one
2016-07-06T01:07:11Z Bike: that shouldn't happen. do you have code?
2016-07-06T01:08:06Z pierpa: afair, format can't do flush. But can C's printf do it?
2016-07-06T01:09:27Z Polyphony: Bike: perhaps it was only in the repl, but I was using (format "~a: ~S" string (read)) firstly, which made sense when it didn't work, but after that I just started using the repl and using two seperate calls to format would always cause a fresh line in-between
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2016-07-06T01:10:28Z Polyphony: pierpa: no, I was looking for an fflush analog as well, couldn't find it though. I was searching for (force-output) basically
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2016-07-06T01:29:20Z jason_m: What compiler settings are used with a C-u C-c C-k from slime?
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2016-07-06T01:30:18Z jason_m: The article from Xach http://lispblog.xach.com/post/141544854858/forcing-higher-safety-levels-in-sbcl suggests (safety 3), but I wonder if it is really (debug 3).  The slime manual says "maximal debug settings" https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Compilation.html#Compilation
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2016-07-06T01:30:59Z jason_m: Compiling and loading a file with the C-u prefix does not seem to check type-specifiers on slot definitions
2016-07-06T01:31:05Z jason_m: (sbcl)
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2016-07-06T01:35:26Z Bike: dammit, why do people leave
2016-07-06T01:36:11Z Bike: jason_m: the docs say "maximal debug settings"
2016-07-06T01:37:06Z Bike: which seems to be borne out by the code
2016-07-06T01:37:52Z Bike: slime-compute-policy only returns debug and speed policies when there's a prefix
2016-07-06T01:38:13Z Bike: i don't know if sbcl ever checks type specifiers on slot definitions
2016-07-06T01:38:52Z jason_m: Bike: I got it to yesterday.  scymtym pointed out that sbcl will check with (safety 3)
2016-07-06T01:39:14Z Bike: oh. well, slime does debug 3
2016-07-06T01:39:41Z jason_m: That's what it was looking like to me, although Xach's article made it sounds like maybe it also did (safety 3)
2016-07-06T01:40:00Z Bike: he could be mistaken, or they could have changed it at some point. he also says it improves debug info
2016-07-06T01:40:06Z jason_m: right
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2016-07-06T01:41:13Z jason_m: From what I can tell, it also appears that the compiler settings when i compile and load the file are what matter, not necessarily the compiler settings when i type in code at the repl.  does that sound correct?
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2016-07-06T01:41:55Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean
2016-07-06T01:42:53Z jason_m: so for example, (proclaim '(optimize (safety 3))) at the repl, followed by a compile and load, followed by (proclaim '(optimize (safety 1))) at the repl, and then a (make-instance ...) that violates the type specifier still throws an error.  but it doesn't throw an error the other way around
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2016-07-06T01:44:44Z Bike: uh, hm. well probably the type restriction data is stored when the defclass is compiled, and make-instance doesn't do a runtime check of the optimize levels, which would be kind of bizarre anyway
2016-07-06T01:47:50Z jason_m: That's what I gather.  I'm trying to make sure I have a good understanding on when type checking will be enforced to make sure i can test my code well
2016-07-06T01:48:35Z jason_m: I would hate to violate my type specifiers somewhere and not notice, only to have it blow up under some different circumstances
2016-07-06T01:48:45Z Bike: indeed
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2016-07-06T02:27:15Z sharkteeth: is there ever a good reason to use eq vs eql?
2016-07-06T02:30:40Z brfennpocock: Generally, if you have to ask, then no. (but really, there are rare times it's useful for efficiency)
2016-07-06T02:31:02Z sharkteeth: haha fair enough
2016-07-06T02:31:11Z phadthai: it also makes it clear that it's a test for identity rather than equality
2016-07-06T02:31:48Z phadthai: i.e. the same object vs the same value
2016-07-06T02:32:17Z phadthai: (on objects, it's like comparing their memory pointers)
2016-07-06T02:33:12Z sharkteeth: that's kinda where i'm coming from...in lisp are object references treated like c-style pointers or will several different references always be treated as the same object
2016-07-06T02:33:48Z sharkteeth: when i was learning c/c++ for gamedev hacking i had a lot of trouble with passing pointers around
2016-07-06T02:34:41Z brfennpocock: Lisp's references are basically like Java-style references, if that helps. Same object is EQ to only itself; constants may be joined at compile-time; etc.
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2016-07-06T02:35:48Z phadthai: thanks brfennpocock, I wasn't too certain what to answer here; to my impression such references are like pointers, but more opaque
2016-07-06T02:35:56Z sharkteeth: i haven't touched java in a while so i'll pose a really simple case: if you pass a variable to a function in lisp and then return that variable, will the returned variable be eq to the original variable in the calling function?
2016-07-06T02:36:38Z phadthai: not if it's an "atom", but otherwise, unless explicitely copying or reinstancing, yes
2016-07-06T02:36:41Z sharkteeth: i.e. (let ((x 0)) (eq x (some-func x))) where some-func returns the variable its passed
2016-07-06T02:36:52Z Zhivago: You do not pass varibles in CL -- you pass values.
2016-07-06T02:37:18Z sharkteeth: is it possible to pass variables? do not or can not?
2016-07-06T02:37:23Z Zhivago: And as to if the returned value will EQ the passed value, that depends on the value and kind of value.
2016-07-06T02:37:26Z Bike: you can't. it doesn't make sense as a thing to do.
2016-07-06T02:37:42Z Zhivago: CL uses pass-by-value semantics.
2016-07-06T02:37:46Z sharkteeth: ok
2016-07-06T02:38:02Z sharkteeth: interesting
2016-07-06T02:38:15Z Bike: characters and numbers can be copied arbitrarily.
2016-07-06T02:38:15Z brfennpocock: Primitive atoms like 0 are different, but, (let ((x (cons 0 1))) (eq x (identity x))) is true
2016-07-06T02:38:16Z Zhivago: With macros, you can make forms that appear to have other semantics, but that is a syntactic guise.
2016-07-06T02:38:58Z phadthai: and there are interesting side effects, some implementation-specific: on ECL, a number which is smaller than a bignum will be EQ to another of the same value, but that's no longer true for bignums, where ECL however matches
2016-07-06T02:38:59Z Bike: actually, the clhs has the example of (let ((x 5)) (eq x x)) being undefined. woo.
2016-07-06T02:39:26Z phadthai: s/where ECL/where EQL/
2016-07-06T02:39:28Z Zhivago: One reason you should probably be talking about EQL instead of EQ. :)
2016-07-06T02:39:47Z phadthai: and for numbers, I agree with Zhivago
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2016-07-06T02:40:16Z sharkteeth: eql is is then
2016-07-06T02:40:22Z sharkteeth: *it is
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2016-07-06T02:40:52Z phadthai: and if it's numeric operations, there is also = of course
2016-07-06T02:40:57Z sharkteeth: right
2016-07-06T02:41:38Z sharkteeth: so if you need to pass large amounts of data many times between functions, i assume there's some way to do that efficiently? i'd imagine passing lots of values back and forth would be costly
2016-07-06T02:41:55Z sharkteeth: i haven't come across a pointer/reference system in my reading yet but someone mentioned it a minute ago
2016-07-06T02:41:59Z Zhivago: Generally you would use some kind of aggregate value, like an array.
2016-07-06T02:42:15Z Bike: well, the compiled code is probably going to involve passing memory locations instead of "arrays" and stuff.
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2016-07-06T02:42:32Z Zhivago: You can think of CL as passing object references by value.
2016-07-06T02:42:46Z Zhivago: Much like Java, in that respect.
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2016-07-06T02:43:12Z sharkteeth: thanks
2016-07-06T02:43:27Z jason_m: Zhivago: Doesn't pass by value imply copying?  Is that correct for CL?
2016-07-06T02:43:40Z jason_m: oh, "references by value"
2016-07-06T02:44:07Z jason_m: yeah, a copy of the reference, both referencing the same underlying object
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2016-07-06T02:45:49Z phadthai: sharkteeth: if performance is enough of a consideration to reduce the number of passed objects (in which case indeed a context object or the like can be passed around containing whatever needed), also consider that although &optional (and especially &key) are very useful, they too will incur more cost
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2016-07-06T02:46:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-06T02:46:57Z sharkteeth: padthai: noted, thanks. i'm looking at doing some financial modeling stuff down the road which kinda by its nature involves lots of data getting bounced around
2016-07-06T02:47:07Z sharkteeth: trying to look ahead a bit
2016-07-06T02:48:48Z phadthai: good night beach
2016-07-06T02:49:24Z Zhivago: Note that the underlying object may be encoded into the reference in many cases (e.g., numbers).
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2016-07-06T02:50:55Z sharkteeth: interesting
2016-07-06T02:52:04Z fugue: I've got this function that I need to call 5 times, however the result keep appending rather than reset and starting over: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319899
2016-07-06T02:52:08Z fugue: Can someone help me out here?
2016-07-06T02:52:54Z Zhivago: That's what you asked it to do.
2016-07-06T02:53:00Z beach: fugue: It is very impolite to submit badly-indented code for others to read.
2016-07-06T02:53:24Z Zhivago: Do you understand what a lexical closure is?
2016-07-06T02:53:36Z beach: fugue: Please load it into Emacs+SLIM, indent it properly and resubmit.
2016-07-06T02:53:58Z fugue: beach: is that available for osx
2016-07-06T02:54:08Z pillton: Yes.
2016-07-06T02:55:08Z beach: fugue: Common Lisp programmers understand code by relying on indentation.  If you ask people to read badly-indented code, you force them to count parentheses which will waste a lot of time.
2016-07-06T02:55:28Z fugue: beach: fair enough, let me install emacs + slime
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2016-07-06T02:56:03Z pillton: fugue: http://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started
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2016-07-06T03:03:07Z fugue: beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319899#1
2016-07-06T03:03:12Z fugue: does that look better?
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2016-07-06T03:03:39Z beach: fugue: Not perfect, but better.
2016-07-06T03:06:23Z fugue: I *must* use recursion to solve this problem, and that's why I chose the closure Zhivago
2016-07-06T03:06:36Z Bike: you can be recursive without using a closure
2016-07-06T03:06:52Z Bike: let me spoil this for you: bind the variable inside the function, rather than outside it
2016-07-06T03:09:38Z fugue: if I were to do that, wouldn't it clear the list every time the function is called recursively
2016-07-06T03:09:57Z beach: fugue: What is it that you are trying to accomplish?
2016-07-06T03:10:11Z Bike: yes. so you use a second argument or something.
2016-07-06T03:10:40Z Bike: third. whatever. or an auxiliary function since you have to dance around that too.
2016-07-06T03:10:59Z fugue: beach: I need to call that function 5 times with different prefix/dict args. Doing so keeps appending to X/result rather than starting out new for each run
2016-07-06T03:11:18Z Bike: because that's how closures work. they maintain a state between calls.
2016-07-06T03:11:19Z fugue: Bike: I wish, the method signatures are sorta given to us (or we're told how many args)
2016-07-06T03:11:34Z Bike: auxiliary then. labels.
2016-07-06T03:15:46Z jason_m: fugue: I'm not suggesting this is a particularly good solution, but note that you can define another function inside your let that can clear the result value.  you can call that clearing function between calls of lookup. Both lookup and the clear/reset function will have access to x.  I think another arg in the arg list or using labels are the best approaches.
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2016-07-06T03:16:31Z Bike: has your class seriously taught recursion without explaining how to use extra parameters
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2016-07-06T03:17:00Z fugue: We have 1 slide on recursion and it speaks nothing of extra params
2016-07-06T03:17:21Z Bike: you have one slide for what you've been doing homework for for two days?
2016-07-06T03:17:28Z jasom: the 99% of CS pedagogy is crap
2016-07-06T03:17:35Z fugue: Well the recursive bit, Bike
2016-07-06T03:17:43Z fugue: Thats why I have better luck on IRC
2016-07-06T03:18:02Z fugue: There is also Piazza, which is a UTA trying his best to answer every 24hrs
2016-07-06T03:18:18Z pillton: UTA?
2016-07-06T03:18:23Z Bike: either you're missing something or your professor is incompetent.
2016-07-06T03:18:27Z fugue: Undergrad Teaching Assistant
2016-07-06T03:18:44Z Bike: i mean, it's pointless for me to complain about your class, but christ.
2016-07-06T03:18:47Z fugue: Here is the exercise, verbatim
2016-07-06T03:19:12Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/submit
2016-07-06T03:19:19Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319901 *
2016-07-06T03:19:28Z jasom: fugue: I would suggest either using an auxiliary function or an optional third argument
2016-07-06T03:19:43Z Bike: well, it just says it takes those two arguments, not that it doesn't take more.
2016-07-06T03:20:08Z fugue: jasom: how would you go about 'clearing' x?
2016-07-06T03:20:19Z fugue: Bike: funny you say that, that exact question was asked on Piazza
2016-07-06T03:20:31Z jasom: fugue: I'll show you an example with fibonacci
2016-07-06T03:20:33Z Bike: what, and the TA told you you couldn't have more arguments?
2016-07-06T03:20:37Z jasom: the classic simple recusive function
2016-07-06T03:20:53Z fugue: Bike: yup.
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2016-07-06T03:21:02Z fugue: He even suggested: ' As long as I can call one function and it gets done, it's fine. '
2016-07-06T03:21:03Z Bike: did you ask why?
2016-07-06T03:21:10Z pillton: fugue: Do you have a slide on labels?
2016-07-06T03:21:15Z fugue: checking
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2016-07-06T03:21:29Z Bike: i guess it doesn't matter. labels, auxiliary function.
2016-07-06T03:21:31Z fugue: pillton: not only do we not have a slide on labels, there is no mention of labels anywhere
2016-07-06T03:21:37Z pillton: Nice.
2016-07-06T03:21:53Z jason_m: then you'll blow away the grader :)
2016-07-06T03:21:54Z fugue: This course cost me $1500 that I pay out of my pocket
2016-07-06T03:21:58Z Bike: you could clear it with something like (defun clear () (setf x nil)), but doing that would be an absurd solution and more annoying for your TA.
2016-07-06T03:21:59Z fugue: haha
2016-07-06T03:22:49Z fugue: And we're 'done' with LISP,  moving onto intelligent agents...
2016-07-06T03:24:25Z jasom: fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319902
2016-07-06T03:24:57Z jasom: fib1 is with optional arguments, fib2 is with an auxilliary function.
2016-07-06T03:25:00Z Bike: yes, there's also the question of why a class in AI requires you learn a programming language
2016-07-06T03:25:11Z jasom: oops, I typoed the recursive call in fib2
2016-07-06T03:25:16Z jasom: (should be a call to fib2)
2016-07-06T03:25:25Z Bike: as a thinking agent myself i of course deal with dictionaries of exploded symbols all the time
2016-07-06T03:25:47Z jasom: (should be a call to fib2-helper)
2016-07-06T03:26:03Z pillton: Bike: What explosive do you use for your symbols?
2016-07-06T03:26:14Z Bike: anfo. nice and cheap
2016-07-06T03:26:16Z beach: fugue: Why on earth would you pay for a course out of your pocket?
2016-07-06T03:26:32Z Bike: well, it beats student loans.
2016-07-06T03:26:38Z jasom: fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319902#1 <-- fixed
2016-07-06T03:26:43Z fugue: beach: because America
2016-07-06T03:26:49Z beach: Move!
2016-07-06T03:26:53Z fugue: jasom: thanks!
2016-07-06T03:27:17Z fugue: move where? we're about to elect the greatest US president ever
2016-07-06T03:27:24Z fugue: I can't miss out on that!
2016-07-06T03:27:37Z beach: My wife votes at the consulate.
2016-07-06T03:28:13Z Bike: well you'd have to convince some foreign government that it's worth their while to let you learn there
2016-07-06T03:28:17Z jasom: beach: tottally OT, but how badly is she screwed by the bizarre tax policy of the US for citizens abroad?
2016-07-06T03:28:44Z pillton: jasom: I wondered that too.
2016-07-06T03:29:11Z fugue: I also don't qualify for any financial assistance, so I pay my wife's tuition too
2016-07-06T03:29:20Z fugue: An added bonus
2016-07-06T03:29:25Z beach: jasom: Not a problem, other than the work of filing in the US in addition to here.  There is a bi-lateral agreement that prevents double taxation.
2016-07-06T03:30:00Z jasom: ouch; and tuition has gone *way* up since I went to school.  I spent ~80k and graduated 11 years ago.  These days it would be more like $150k at the same school
2016-07-06T03:32:19Z jasom: Tuition basically totalled the same as my first year's salary  after I graduated, which isn't too bad, and I was out-of-state.  I had friends who covered 80% of their total costs (including room & board) just working full-time in the summer.
2016-07-06T03:32:48Z jasom: $1500 was one semester's tuition in-state at the time
2016-07-06T03:34:46Z fugue: That's about 1 3-credit course now
2016-07-06T03:35:17Z jasom: fugue: where are you? GMU?
2016-07-06T03:35:21Z fugue: Yeah
2016-07-06T03:35:26Z fugue: How'd you know?
2016-07-06T03:35:27Z Bike: yeah i think that's around the order of magnitude of what i paid to take a summer class a few years back
2016-07-06T03:35:39Z jasom: fugue: saw a DC area fios, and you were paying by the credit-hour
2016-07-06T03:35:46Z fugue: Haha
2016-07-06T03:35:56Z jasom grew up in Reston, VA
2016-07-06T03:36:26Z fugue: Oh nice. Yeah unfortunately (respectfully) I do not care about AI nor LISP
2016-07-06T03:36:44Z fugue: I just need to graduate, it's been 11 years
2016-07-06T03:36:55Z fugue: After the summer course, I'll have 2 more courses remaining
2016-07-06T03:37:04Z fugue: summer semester*
2016-07-06T03:37:12Z Bike: we all had bullshit classes, just... don't take this as representative of what programmers actually do, i guess
2016-07-06T03:37:38Z fugue: For sure. And the way its taught over the summer is... you know.
2016-07-06T03:37:56Z fugue: I've been working in the field for some time now ~8 years
2016-07-06T03:38:02Z fugue: Taking classes part time :)
2016-07-06T03:38:16Z Bike: see, i didn't think summer was usually that bad. i took med student's bane and it was still pretty great
2016-07-06T03:38:43Z sharkteeth: med student's bane? a&p?
2016-07-06T03:38:56Z Bike: organic chemistry
2016-07-06T03:39:02Z jasom: Organich chem
2016-07-06T03:39:20Z sharkteeth: oh i was thinking med school not undergrad...it's late
2016-07-06T03:39:26Z sharkteeth: i did not enjoy orgo 1 or 2
2016-07-06T03:39:31Z fugue: Oh, we have a little more in common. My first degree was in Microbiology with a Minor in Chemistry
2016-07-06T03:39:34Z fugue: Go figure
2016-07-06T03:39:49Z jasom: At Purdue you were more likely to get someone interested in teaching if you took a summer class; that didn't always translate to actually better at teaching though.
2016-07-06T03:39:53Z Bike: i liked orgo 1. i mean, the tests were miserable honestly, but it was interesting
2016-07-06T03:39:59Z Bike: miserable obviously*
2016-07-06T03:40:02Z sharkteeth: industrial engineering undergrad that decided to apply to med school a little late...currently working as a paramedic
2016-07-06T03:40:17Z jason_m: fugue: Since you're moving on from lisp after this lesson, recursion is great and all, but common lisp also has a powerful loop construct.  here's what a non-recursive solution might look like: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319905  recursion because-its-good-for-you gets annoying.
2016-07-06T03:40:18Z fugue: sharkteeth: which city?
2016-07-06T03:40:18Z sharkteeth: my coursework over the years has been all over the place to say the least
2016-07-06T03:40:36Z sharkteeth: little shithole just south of Detroit called Taylor is where I work
2016-07-06T03:41:09Z sharkteeth: imagine Detroit but with white people in trailers doing heroin shooting each other instead of black folks shooting each other in project blocks
2016-07-06T03:41:36Z fugue: Oh man
2016-07-06T03:42:18Z fugue: jason_m: that looks like something I would have done if there wasn't a recursion restriction
2016-07-06T03:42:35Z fugue: maybe :]
2016-07-06T03:43:23Z jasom: yeah, recursion before it's good for you is a pain; particularly when there are so many problems that are simpler to implement with recursion than iteration (e.g. tree walking)
2016-07-06T03:43:57Z Zhivago: It's not recursion that's significant -- it is backtracking.
2016-07-06T03:45:00Z jasom: Zhivago: problems that require backtracking are very amenable to recursive implememntations; problems that don't tend to be less clear when implemented recursively
2016-07-06T03:48:16Z jasom: Zhivago: IIRC you and I disagree on whether or not to discuss the call-stack when comparing recursion and iteration.  I like it because you can show that you always have a stack when doing backtracking regardless of if you are using iteration or recursion, and you never need a stack when not doing backtracking, regardless of if you are using iteration or recursion.
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2016-07-06T03:54:01Z jason_m: Oh I feel silly, we missed perhaps a more obvious recursive solution, although one that cannot be tail-call optimized
2016-07-06T03:54:05Z fugue: Appreciate all the help fellas.
2016-07-06T03:54:43Z fugue: looks like HW1 is complete, woop.
2016-07-06T03:54:56Z Bike: praise be
2016-07-06T03:55:10Z fugue: It'll all be over soon, Bike
2016-07-06T03:55:15Z fugue: July 29th :)
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2016-07-06T03:56:35Z jason_m: I annotated my paste with another recursive approach, one that does not use another arg, labels, or aux function.
2016-07-06T03:59:49Z Zhivago: jasom: The critical insight is that recursion and iteration are the same thing with and without backtracking. So it's the support for and use of backtracking that's important.
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2016-07-06T04:06:14Z jasom: well good night all
2016-07-06T04:06:59Z fugue: goodnight. thanks again jasom
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2016-07-06T04:12:49Z sharkteeth: managed to completely crash the REPL for the first time
2016-07-06T04:12:54Z sharkteeth: i feel like this is some sort of strange milestone
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2016-07-06T04:20:34Z sharkteeth: if i have a simple function that iterates over a list (via dolist) and performs an operation on each element after a "collect," what's the best way to access the collected list?
2016-07-06T04:21:08Z Zhivago: dolist doesn't have a collect.
2016-07-06T04:21:09Z sharkteeth: for example i have a function that takes a list like so ("1" "0" "0" "0") and performs (parse-integer) on each element
2016-07-06T04:21:12Z sharkteeth: oh
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2016-07-06T04:21:28Z Zhivago: Perhap you want mapcar?
2016-07-06T04:21:32Z sharkteeth: yes
2016-07-06T04:21:34Z sharkteeth: i think i do
2016-07-06T04:21:41Z Zhivago: Probably you want to stop making stuff up, also.
2016-07-06T04:22:19Z sharkteeth: i'm trying to learn and i didn't get any errors so i assumed it was legal
2016-07-06T04:22:28Z sharkteeth: don't need to be rude
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2016-07-06T04:25:05Z beach: sharkteeth: Do you need to access the collected list during the iteration, or just after the loop has finished?
2016-07-06T04:25:14Z sharkteeth: just when it's done
2016-07-06T04:25:42Z beach: OK, then MAPCAR or LOOP depending on how complicated the operation is on each element.
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2016-07-06T04:26:14Z sharkteeth: i'll try both out, thanks
2016-07-06T04:31:09Z beach: I find that, if I already have a function to apply to each argument, then I tend to use MAPCAR, but if I would have to create an anonymous function in order to use MAPCAR, I often prefer LOOP.
2016-07-06T04:32:31Z beach: So (mapcar #'plusp list) but (loop for element in list collect (> element 1)).
2016-07-06T04:37:34Z sharkteeth: i ended up using loop but that's mostly because i don't fully understand mapcar yet
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2016-07-06T04:38:59Z Bike: (mapcar #'f l) is equivalent to (loop for e in l collect (f l)) in all the ways i remember
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2016-07-06T07:40:37Z knobo1: (loop for e in l collect (f e))
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2016-07-06T08:27:09Z knobo1: Can I do global install of lisp implementations with roswell?
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2016-07-06T08:29:51Z fe[nl]ix: knobo1: why would you want that ?
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2016-07-06T09:27:13Z knobo1: fe[nl]ix: because then I don't have to upgrade installation individualy, and to save n*400Mb data.
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2016-07-06T09:28:15Z knobo1: I still have 29Gb free, so saving 400Mb is probably not that important.
2016-07-06T09:33:57Z knobo1: Can I at least have a global repository of local-projects?
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2016-07-06T09:55:05Z Baggers: hey folks, this question is a bit nasty so sorry about that. I would like to be able to use slime's edit-definition and echo arglist on things that are not real lisp functions/methods etc. The rational is this: I have a defun-g macro that is used to define a 'gpu function' it defines the function in my lisp->glsl compiler so it can be used in gpucode. Being able to get arglists and jump to definition would go a long
2016-07-06T09:55:05Z Baggers:  way to making these gpu functions feel more like regular lisp functions. My macro could (and until recently did) emit a dummy lisp defun that meant this worked (and it was great), however I have since added support for glsl-like non-congruent lambda lists, which means I cant emit any lisp dummy version. My current approach is to provide a new implementation of swank's find-definitions & arglist interface which quer
2016-07-06T09:55:05Z Baggers: ies my compiler for definitions before just calling the original versions. This works but I'd love something a little less 'monkey patch'. Any ideas appreciated
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2016-07-06T11:22:58Z dxtr: What's the most appropriate way to get the last character of a string?
2016-07-06T11:23:08Z dxtr: Reversing it and returning the first element? Doesn't sound too efficient
2016-07-06T11:23:48Z dxtr: Oh, there's (position)
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2016-07-06T11:24:22Z phadthai: if it has a fill pointer or if the string is the same size as the array, knowing the end is fast, and then indexing to the character should also be fast
2016-07-06T11:24:38Z phadthai: length should use the fill pointer or limit
2016-07-06T11:24:43Z peterh: string is basically an array (vector), so what's the best way to get the last element in an array
2016-07-06T11:25:51Z phadthai: and for indexing you have several choices, including aref
2016-07-06T11:26:03Z Baggers: dxtr: (aref str (1- (length str))) ?
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2016-07-06T11:26:38Z Baggers: fails for empty string, but in that case there is no last element to get
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2016-07-06T11:27:40Z dxtr: Well that's just an extra thing to check for. No biggie :p
2016-07-06T11:28:11Z phadthai: (also see char, schar, svref, elt)
2016-07-06T11:28:27Z Baggers: dxtr: also (alexandria:last-elt str)
2016-07-06T11:28:43Z dxtr: Why did I not know about char? Hmm
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2016-07-06T11:28:52Z dxtr: It makes a lot of sense
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2016-07-06T11:47:28Z Baggers: Is the downside of sbcl internal code walker only that it is implementation specific, or does it (like the portable expanders/walkers) have issues with certain combinations of macros
2016-07-06T11:47:30Z Baggers: ?
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2016-07-06T13:03:11Z stilda: I read Let Over Lambda and it I am very excited about it. But I am wondering, how often in real life you use that advanced stuff (like anafors, pandoric macros, dlambdas, etc)? Is it often you end up with such smart designs/structures?
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2016-07-06T13:05:51Z jackdaniel: stilda: rarely
2016-07-06T13:06:09Z jackdaniel: anaphoras get pretty handy at times
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2016-07-06T13:06:50Z jason_m: stilda: I enjoyed that book too, it certainly made me think about what was possible, but I still prefer to reach for CLOS instead of the closures he advocates for, and I don't find myself doing a lot of compile-time programming yet.
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2016-07-06T13:07:29Z jackdaniel: it's a stuff (in my opinion) which you should use only when you actually need to, but there aren't many use-cases for them
2016-07-06T13:07:38Z jason_m: what's easier to read and interact with at the repl - a dlambda or a simple class with named slots and accessors?
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2016-07-06T13:09:59Z jason_m: (although we can still be smug about the fact that if common lisp didn't give us CLOS, it has all the right expressiveness to allows us to implement it ourselves)
2016-07-06T13:11:35Z moore33: jason_m: Almost.
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2016-07-06T13:16:49Z stilda: Is same sort of exclusiveness applicable to technics from "On Lisp"?
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2016-07-06T13:20:31Z jason_m: I found the stuff in on lisp a little more applicable.  LoL uses several utilities from on lisp.  I think a major idea of on lisp is "bottom up programming", while LoL maybe loses focus and ends up being more about "look at these crazy things we can do!"
2016-07-06T13:24:28Z varjag: stilda: i try to stick to "conventional" cl forms, leaving macros for domain specific stuff
2016-07-06T13:25:46Z varjag: makes it easier on eyes of potential other programmers using it
2016-07-06T13:25:53Z jackdaniel: stilda: while on lisp teaches you a lot of useful things which are good to know when you use lisp, let over lambda learns you stuff beyond (it's a lot of fun though) which you probably doesn't have to know
2016-07-06T13:26:24Z jackdaniel: like the first is for enlightenment while the second is for amusement
2016-07-06T13:26:48Z varjag: i stopped reading LoL right at vi advocacy
2016-07-06T13:26:50Z varjag: :p
2016-07-06T13:28:28Z varjag: (seriously it's a good book though, just didn't have time to read thoroughly)
2016-07-06T13:29:25Z warweasle: wow, I'm still connected
2016-07-06T13:30:01Z warweasle: Has there been any new work on a logic based library? Like Gambol.
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2016-07-06T13:35:23Z warweasle: I might have a paying gig where I can use it. Or something like prolog.
2016-07-06T13:35:53Z Xach: knowledgeworks is prologgy
2016-07-06T13:35:55Z Xach: and ops5-y
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2016-07-06T13:40:06Z warweasle: Xach: Thanks!
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2016-07-06T13:43:05Z Xach: warweasle: not free, but a nice pro tool.
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2016-07-06T13:44:33Z sjl: is there a common naming convention for function/macro pairs that do the sameish things?
2016-07-06T13:44:44Z warweasle: Xach: If I can get funding, then not a problem. I can use the personal edition to make a prototype.
2016-07-06T13:44:44Z dlowe: add a * to the end
2016-07-06T13:44:48Z dlowe: sjl: ^
2016-07-06T13:44:55Z jackdaniel: sjl: with-* and invoke-*
2016-07-06T13:44:56Z dlowe: like defun and defun *
2016-07-06T13:45:10Z dlowe: oh, I misunderstood
2016-07-06T13:45:13Z sjl: e.g. I have a (query ...) for my prolog library that lets you run queries, but I'd also like to have a function version to handle queries built at runtime
2016-07-06T13:45:14Z Xach: warweasle: I don't think it's part of the personal edition, but you could ask them to provide a short-term license for prototyping.
2016-07-06T13:45:34Z sjl: so like (query-fn '(likes sally ?who)) == (query (likes sally ?who))
2016-07-06T13:45:51Z warweasle: Xach: Gambol or PIAP might be enough to start off.
2016-07-06T13:45:52Z jackdaniel: sjl: mcclim has that convention: (invoke-bah …) is a function, while (with-bah …) is a macro
2016-07-06T13:45:54Z sjl: jackdaniel: hm, invoke- seems okay
2016-07-06T13:46:04Z warweasle: sjl: Yes, exactly.
2016-07-06T13:46:24Z dlowe: sjl: I wouldn't make a macro specifically to avoid quoting, but that's a personal preference
2016-07-06T13:48:09Z sjl: dlowe: yeah, it does read really cleanly when you can use it though
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2016-07-06T15:42:53Z jgo: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-07-06T15:46:32Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-07-06T15:46:52Z beach: phoe_krk: Are you around?
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2016-07-06T17:47:24Z Xach: I am around.
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2016-07-06T17:54:50Z beach: Good to know.
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2016-07-06T19:49:52Z oGMo: hrm
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2016-07-06T19:50:55Z oGMo: i wonder how to introduce more unrealism ("abstractism"?)
2016-07-06T19:51:50Z oGMo: like in zelda 1, you blow open a cave in a rock wall and there's some old guy/lady selling stuff in a shop
2016-07-06T19:52:05Z oGMo: but you don't stop to think "wow this is totally unrealistic"
2016-07-06T19:52:34Z oGMo: more unrealism seems like nothing but a positive
2016-07-06T19:54:44Z oGMo: but, is this purely a graphical thing? do graphics need to be more abstract for the world design to be such?
2016-07-06T19:55:04Z oGMo: i can't think of any counterexamples
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2016-07-06T20:03:53Z oGMo: err
2016-07-06T20:03:56Z oGMo: wow wrong channel
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2016-07-06T20:06:20Z emaczen: I'm having trouble getting the right escaped output with cl-who.
2016-07-06T20:06:39Z emaczen: Here is my example: (with-html-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (:sup "\u2212"))
2016-07-06T20:06:57Z emaczen: it won't output the "\"
2016-07-06T20:09:09Z Xach: emaczen: if you want a \ to be included in a string, you have to escape it with \.
2016-07-06T20:09:24Z Xach: emaczen: so if you want the string's first character to be \, you have to do "\\u2212"
2016-07-06T20:09:47Z Xach: the only two characters that require escaping are \ and ".
2016-07-06T20:09:58Z emaczen: Xach: When I do that it outputs: "<sup>\\u2212</sup>"
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2016-07-06T20:10:21Z Xach: emaczen: yes, that is because lisp has printed it readably.
2016-07-06T20:10:35Z Xach: that is, it will read back in with an escaped \ in it. but there is only one \ in the string's data.
2016-07-06T20:10:44Z Xach: see, for example, (length "\\")
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2016-07-06T21:44:40Z phoe_krk: Are only two characters escaped within Lisp strings?
2016-07-06T21:44:46Z phoe_krk: #\\ and #\"?
2016-07-06T21:45:36Z rszeno: kind of "double escaped"
2016-07-06T21:45:40Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2016-07-06T21:47:19Z rszeno: both '\' and '"' are a kind of separators
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2016-07-06T22:08:49Z totimkopf: is it a bad idea to learn several different types of Lisps at once? I am learning CL and Clojure at the same time
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2016-07-06T22:09:57Z Bike: why would it be a bad idea? it's not too hard to tell them apart
2016-07-06T22:10:20Z rszeno: if is not confusing what lisp is "clear"
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2016-07-06T22:11:38Z totimkopf: okay :)
2016-07-06T22:12:14Z totimkopf: I should also learn emacs lisp
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2016-07-06T22:38:00Z dxtr: I found that elisp comes naturally if you start using emacs on a daily basis :P
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2016-07-06T23:17:31Z emaczen: Xach: Is there any way I can force lisp to only print one "\"?
2016-07-06T23:18:47Z Bike: yeah, don't print it readably
2016-07-06T23:18:59Z emaczen: Bike: How do I do that?
2016-07-06T23:19:50Z pierpa: with PRINC
2016-07-06T23:19:56Z Bike: er... maybe it's escape
2016-07-06T23:20:12Z Bike: princ should work
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2016-07-06T23:20:51Z emaczen: Bike: I tried that and it still prints two "\"
2016-07-06T23:21:04Z Bike: tried what, like (princ "\\a")?
2016-07-06T23:21:37Z emaczen: Oh wait, It does print it how I wanted, and it returns the object
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2016-07-06T23:24:05Z emaczen: How do I collect the printed representation though?
2016-07-06T23:24:53Z Bike: collect?
2016-07-06T23:25:03Z Bike: it's printed. that's what those functions do, they print.
2016-07-06T23:25:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: emaczen: (format muh-stream "some string")
2016-07-06T23:25:15Z Bike: they just return the same object you passed in.
2016-07-06T23:25:47Z Bike: and "\\a" is read in as, as xach mentioned, a string consisting of a backslash followed by an a
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2016-07-07T00:01:25Z emaczen: Okay, I am trying to convert a Lisp unicode string \u2212 (this is the minus sign) into a JS string \u2212
2016-07-07T00:01:48Z emaczen: I am doing this with parenscript, and the final output is always \\u2212
2016-07-07T00:01:53Z emaczen: If it is \u2212 -- then it works
2016-07-07T00:02:01Z Zhivago: Perhaps you're doing it wrong?
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2016-07-07T00:02:59Z Zhivago: It sounds like you're converting a string of one character into a string of six characters.
2016-07-07T00:04:02Z rszeno: or maybe strings with 6 to 7 chars
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2016-07-07T00:04:45Z Zhivago: Indeed.
2016-07-07T00:04:58Z Zhivago: Understanding what \u2212 represents is important.
2016-07-07T00:04:59Z emaczen: huh?
2016-07-07T00:05:24Z Bike: what do you mean by "the final output"?
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2016-07-07T00:06:12Z emaczen: (ps:who-ps-html ...) => (stringify ... html-tags ...)
2016-07-07T00:06:31Z emaczen: The final output is these stringify forms which then will get written to a JS file
2016-07-07T00:06:44Z emaczen: I just can't seem to get anything other than \\u2212 or u2212
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2016-07-07T00:07:12Z Bike: strings in lisp forms are going to be printed like \\u, probably
2016-07-07T00:07:34Z emaczen: Bike: Yeah the printed representation is what gets written to the JS file
2016-07-07T00:07:54Z Bike: how are you writing to the js file?
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2016-07-07T00:09:50Z emaczen: I concatenate all forms that I want and then do a (with-open-file (f)... (write-string ...) f)
2016-07-07T00:10:15Z Zhivago: Do you read them as unicode in lisp?
2016-07-07T00:10:18Z Bike: write-string on the string you get from "stringify"?
2016-07-07T00:11:43Z emaczen: Not the same stringify but another strinifiy
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2016-07-07T00:12:22Z emaczen: Zhivago: What do you mean?
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2016-07-07T00:13:44Z rszeno it not a string but a unicode code point
2016-07-07T00:14:55Z Bike: (princ (ps:who-ps-html (:a :href "https://example.com" "\\u2212"))) prints <A HREF="https://example.com">\u2212</A>
2016-07-07T00:15:22Z Bike: is that incorrect?
2016-07-07T00:15:53Z emaczen: You are right, but I'm not not printing to a file right?
2016-07-07T00:16:05Z Bike: not not?
2016-07-07T00:16:22Z emaczen: oops, one not
2016-07-07T00:16:28Z Bike: (write-string (ps:who-ps-html ...)) has the same output.
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2016-07-07T00:17:45Z emaczen: Bike: does it write the printed output to the stream?
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2016-07-07T00:18:04Z Bike: yeah? that's what writing is. writing to the stream.
2016-07-07T00:18:42Z Zhivago: emaczen: How many characters are there in the string "\u2212" when you construct it?
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2016-07-07T00:19:52Z emaczen: Wait, I really got something screwed up here...
2016-07-07T00:20:52Z emaczen: I'm writing a string representation of a parentscript macro which expands to the parenscript code to create a JS object and then writing that to a file
2016-07-07T00:21:11Z emaczen: Idk, it is too complicated, and a lot of terrible code
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2016-07-07T00:21:38Z emaczen: I just need to hack something and never look back
2016-07-07T00:21:50Z Zhivago: What does that have to do with \u2212?
2016-07-07T00:22:22Z emaczen: Those are contained in the values of the JS object
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2016-07-07T00:27:18Z Zhivago: Try to ensure that the string representing the JS code is a unicode string.
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2016-07-07T00:31:56Z rszeno: Zhivago is a '-', minus sign
2016-07-07T00:34:14Z rszeno probably is better to be a &minus; as html
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2016-07-07T01:24:16Z porky11: hi
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2016-07-07T01:25:57Z Xach: hello porky11
2016-07-07T01:26:17Z Xach: porky11: I had questions on your issues on github, but you never replied. Why is that?
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2016-07-07T01:26:58Z porky11: I'm not often active on github
2016-07-07T01:27:31Z Xach: Ok. I can't add your projects if you don't respond to discussion.
2016-07-07T01:27:46Z porky11: ok
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2016-07-07T01:34:51Z porky11: is it possible to make overloadable functions using the environment-extensions from cltl2?
2016-07-07T01:35:13Z Xach: porky11: What do you mean by overloadable?
2016-07-07T01:35:44Z porky11: selecting the function at compiletime
2016-07-07T01:37:47Z Xach: I don't know, sorry. I haven't used any cltl2 support in any implementation I use.
2016-07-07T01:37:53Z Bike: you can do some stuff with compiler macros.
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2016-07-07T01:43:13Z porky11: night
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2016-07-07T01:44:46Z rszeno: what had happend with http://lispworks.com ?
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2016-07-07T01:45:10Z Xach: rszeno: nothing?
2016-07-07T01:45:42Z rszeno: ok, then i have a dns problem
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2016-07-07T01:47:03Z rszeno: thank you Xach
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2016-07-07T01:47:13Z Xach: no  problem
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2016-07-07T02:06:38Z rszeno internet is a HUGE SHIT now
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2016-07-07T02:26:33Z rszeno ...and not only...
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2016-07-07T02:34:27Z rszeno out of memory. Great!!!
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2016-07-07T02:43:54Z Zhivago: Download some more.
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2016-07-07T04:01:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-07T04:02:31Z Oladon: Evening, beach :)
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2016-07-07T07:52:25Z loke`: Hello Lisp!
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2016-07-07T08:14:32Z drmeister: Hi everybody.
2016-07-07T08:15:33Z loke`: Hello drmeister
2016-07-07T08:15:42Z loke`: drmeister: We're in the same timezone now :-)
2016-07-07T08:15:47Z drmeister: I've been working on link time optimization in Clasp - I have it working now.  It required rewriting the entire build system (I used 'waf') because it requires everything compile to bitcode rather than object files.
2016-07-07T08:15:56Z drmeister: Are we?  Where are you?
2016-07-07T08:16:06Z drmeister: I'm in Vancouver - as you apparently know.
2016-07-07T08:16:09Z loke`: drmeister: Paris, waiting for a flight to Stockholm
2016-07-07T08:16:15Z loke`: drmeister: I did not know that :-)
2016-07-07T08:16:29Z Bike: damn, they widened some timezones when i wasn't looking
2016-07-07T08:17:13Z drmeister: I'm going to be in London in a couple of weeks... closer.
2016-07-07T08:17:25Z loke`: drmeister: I will be here less than one week
2016-07-07T08:17:30Z loke`: Then back home again.
2016-07-07T08:17:36Z loke`: drmeister: When are you coming to Singapore?
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2016-07-07T08:17:48Z drmeister: I don't know.
2016-07-07T08:17:58Z drmeister: Someone would have to invite me.
2016-07-07T08:18:10Z loke`: drmeister: I'm inviting you
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2016-07-07T08:18:34Z drmeister: To give a talk would be best.
2016-07-07T08:18:48Z loke`: drmeister: Ah, that I'm not able to do at the moment
2016-07-07T08:19:12Z drmeister: I got a large grant yesterday  $1.5M for three years - developing catalysts to detoxify nerve agents.
2016-07-07T08:19:47Z drmeister: Cando/Clasp are a crucial element of that research.
2016-07-07T08:21:14Z drmeister: I can't budget programmers with that - but I will apply for another one in October that will be just to hire programmers.
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2016-07-07T08:22:21Z drmeister: I don't usually talk about money but I've bitched enough about lack of funding - I thought I'd mention it.
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2016-07-07T08:23:18Z loke`: drmeister: That's pretty cool!
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2016-07-07T08:23:37Z drmeister: Clasp now generates stand alone executables.  I haven't yet harnessed the tree-shaking capabilities of llvm based link time optimization - so they are pretty big.
2016-07-07T08:25:09Z drmeister: Alas, it slows down the build somewhat - because there is so much more compilation and inlining going on.   I've given up on speeding up the build process for now.  I'm going for speed of the final system.
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2016-07-07T09:03:47Z dim: drmeister: wow nice, did you try building binaries with some systems already? you might want to try with pgloader, it has quite some dependencies and it's on the complex side, so would be a good stress test ;-)
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2016-07-07T11:14:47Z Xach: drmeister: nice
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2016-07-07T12:41:58Z dim: so, when a system gets quite complex, would you contemplate splitting it into several sub-systems with asd dependencies?
2016-07-07T12:43:49Z dim: I'm thinking about pgloader which I am refactoring, and that operation is looking like a worm hole right now (76 files changed, 6039 insertions(+), 4344 deletions(-))
2016-07-07T12:44:26Z dim: I'm reviewing the package definitions and dependencies, and I wonder about the systems now, too
2016-07-07T12:44:42Z Grue``: is one expected to load the whole system in order to work with it? or one usually needs only a part of the system? that would be my criterion
2016-07-07T12:44:57Z dim: e.g. when using Quicklisp, can I have several .asd files in sub-directories?
2016-07-07T12:45:09Z dim: whole system, Grue``
2016-07-07T12:45:22Z igam`: Yes, if it's logical, split out a system into subsystems.
2016-07-07T12:45:23Z Xach: dim: you can have several system files in subdirectories
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2016-07-07T12:45:24Z Grue``: then what's the use of separate subsystems
2016-07-07T12:45:32Z dim: part of the system would only happen to add a new “driver” to it
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2016-07-07T12:46:06Z dim: Grue``: clean code dependencies and make them explicit, allow me to re-load a single system at a time when refactoring / editing code
2016-07-07T12:46:19Z dim: can't decide if that's a strong enough argument in favor of splitting
2016-07-07T12:46:34Z igam`: Actually you can define overlaping systems: systems that would load common files, but you would load one system or another depending on what you want to test or to build.
2016-07-07T12:46:46Z igam`: But this is something else.
2016-07-07T12:46:53Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/pgloader.asd and https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/package.lisp to get an idea
2016-07-07T12:47:04Z dim: I think it's quite a mess now
2016-07-07T12:47:06Z igam`: Partitionning a big system into subsystems along logical divisions is natural.
2016-07-07T12:47:30Z dim: igam`: does it tend to help maintenance or hinder it?
2016-07-07T12:47:37Z igam`: Good question! :-)
2016-07-07T12:47:49Z igam`: It's better to keep a good average granularity of course.
2016-07-07T12:48:16Z igam`: In your case you already have subdivided your pgloader system into modules. This is good. Perhaps you don't need to split them out into different systems.
2016-07-07T12:48:23Z igam`: (I've not used asdf modules so far).
2016-07-07T12:48:34Z dim: I want to make it easy for me to maintain while still allowing a single (ql:quickload "pgloader") to allow users to play with pgloader
2016-07-07T12:49:04Z igam`: dim: so the question you have to ask in your situation is whether it would ben convenient for you to load only parts of your system (say, only a given module) either for reusability or for testing.
2016-07-07T12:49:09Z dim: I think I'll begin with overlapping systems to ease my part of the work and get a sense of it
2016-07-07T12:49:15Z dim: thanks guys ;-)
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2016-07-07T12:49:49Z dim: igam`: it currently would be very convenient, because I broke it all and I am back to being able to load and finish parts at a time
2016-07-07T12:49:52Z igam`: for development I'd say it'd be convenient to be able to load and test only one module. So basically one system for each module could be a good starting point.
2016-07-07T12:50:08Z dim: yeah that was the thinking
2016-07-07T12:50:16Z dim: going to play with that at next code window
2016-07-07T12:50:30Z dim: they tend to be thin a long apart nowadays tho :(
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2016-07-07T15:00:21Z sjl: if I have a list of things, and each thing is a tree of conses and numbers, is there a way I can sort this list into a canonical order?
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2016-07-07T15:00:40Z sjl: I don't particularly care what the ordering *is*, as long as it's the same
2016-07-07T15:01:27Z sjl: so e.g. sorting (   (foo (a 1)) (bar baz) )   and ( (bar baz) (foo (a 1)) ) should sort to the same thing, but I don't care which "direction" it goes in
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2016-07-07T15:03:13Z sjl: essentially I'm trying to cache states of a game, where a state looks like (foo bar baz)
2016-07-07T15:03:32Z sjl: but when I compute states I can get their contents in any order
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2016-07-07T15:04:04Z sjl: so I need a way to "normalize" them so I can pass them to a #'equal hash-table
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2016-07-07T15:09:18Z jackdaniel: sjl: symbols and numbers you mean?
2016-07-07T15:09:25Z moore33:  sjl: If you can write the function, you can sort it.
2016-07-07T15:09:52Z sjl: jackdaniel: yeah trees of symbols and numbers I mean
2016-07-07T15:10:36Z sjl: so e.g. state X in the game might look like ( (control xplayer) (board (o o o) (x x x) (b b b)) (turn 10) )
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2016-07-07T15:10:54Z sjl: and if state Y is ( (turn 10) (control xplayer) (board (o o o) (x x x) (b b b)) )
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2016-07-07T15:11:17Z sjl: I want the sort to produce the same #'equal list for both
2016-07-07T15:11:32Z sjl: so the cache would treat it as seen
2016-07-07T15:11:35Z jackdaniel: I'd write a recursive predicate to sort the tree first
2016-07-07T15:11:57Z jackdaniel: normal funciton pased to #'sort
2016-07-07T15:12:18Z sjl: yeah I guess the question is how to write that predicate, hah
2016-07-07T15:12:26Z jackdaniel: ah, a sec
2016-07-07T15:12:53Z sjl: I guess I can use sxhash for most things to quickly compare
2016-07-07T15:13:05Z sjl: and only check symbol names when hashes collide or something
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2016-07-07T15:15:30Z brfennpocock`: is that maybe a time taht you know each time you'll have all the same keys? Might be faster to do like mapping (equal (assoc key a) (assoc key b) ) ?
2016-07-07T15:16:05Z sjl: unfortunately no, the keys can vary per state
2016-07-07T15:16:22Z brfennpocock`: nb symbols (not symbol-names) are fixnum-sized atomics, taking hashes of their string-names will slow it down in that case :-)
2016-07-07T15:16:57Z sjl: I'd be doing sxhash of the symbol, not the symbol-name
2016-07-07T15:17:18Z sjl: cause yeah I don't care about the names at all
2016-07-07T15:17:19Z Posterdati: hi
2016-07-07T15:17:36Z brfennpocock`: but the symbol itself is already encoded in a single machine word (probably)
2016-07-07T15:19:31Z moore33: Actually, the sxhash of a symbol has to be tied to its name and package name.
2016-07-07T15:19:44Z Posterdati: I'm writing a finite state machine library using bordeaux-threads, I need to pass an object to the thread function, so I'm using *default-special-bindings*, how can I extract the object itself from the thread function? I'm looking at bordeaux-threads-test.lisp the test default-special-bindings test
2016-07-07T15:20:15Z moore33: But the sxhash of a symbol might be computed once and stored with the symbol.
2016-07-07T15:20:42Z sjl: > Although similarity is defined for symbols in terms of both the symbol's name and the packages in which the symbol is accessible, item 3 disallows using package information to compute the hash code, since changes to the package status of a symbol are not visible to equal.
2016-07-07T15:21:02Z sjl: yeah I'd expect sbcl to just hash it once
2016-07-07T15:22:21Z moore33: sjl: Hmm, I wonder how that reconciles with case 2, specifically how a symbol has the same sxhash in different lisp images.
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2016-07-07T15:22:56Z sjl: hmm, yeah
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2016-07-07T15:24:19Z igam`: sjl: a quick and dirty way to order two random lisp objects is to use (lambda (x y) (string< (princ-to-string x) (princ-to-string y)))
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2016-07-07T15:24:39Z igam`: sjl: but otherwise you will want to implement your own ordering function.
2016-07-07T15:25:02Z sjl: igam`: "quick" in implementation time or runtime? heh
2016-07-07T15:25:11Z igam`: implementation time.
2016-07-07T15:25:15Z igam`: I just wrote it above!
2016-07-07T15:25:17Z igam`: :-)
2016-07-07T15:25:44Z igam`: sjl: but you're right you will want to add at least a let *print-circle* t and it can be slow.
2016-07-07T15:26:14Z jackdaniel: oh, that's clever, didn't think about it
2016-07-07T15:26:54Z jackdaniel: sjl: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319952 maybe something of this kind (didn't test it whatsoever)
2016-07-07T15:28:25Z moore33: sjl: You could also turn the problem around and guarantee that the state list is always generated in "sorted" order.
2016-07-07T15:28:27Z jackdaniel: the bigger problem would be with the flattening though: (o . (o . o)) and (o o . o) willbe flattened into the same ting
2016-07-07T15:28:32Z sjl: jackdaniel: that looks like what I'm coming up with, yeah... what if the hash codes collide in the final case?
2016-07-07T15:28:47Z jackdaniel: sjl: I'd use symbol-name :-)
2016-07-07T15:28:50Z sjl: moore33: yeah that's pretty tricky though... not sure it's possible in my case
2016-07-07T15:28:55Z jackdaniel: but you've mentioned you want sxhash
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2016-07-07T15:36:10Z jackdaniel: I like igam`'s solution most (with princ-to-string)
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2016-07-07T15:38:18Z sjl: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/319954
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2016-07-07T15:38:59Z sjl: maybe something like this?
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2016-07-07T15:39:28Z jackdaniel: looks definetely cleaner than mine :)
2016-07-07T15:39:34Z sjl: if the hash codes collide, but they aren't the same object, we fall back to the slow-ass one
2016-07-07T15:39:40Z sjl: which is probably pretty unlikely
2016-07-07T15:40:21Z jackdaniel: looks OK to me
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2016-07-07T15:40:38Z sjl: actually I think that list in the typecase should be cons
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2016-07-07T15:40:44Z sjl: to treat nil consistently
2016-07-07T15:40:51Z jackdaniel: eventually I'd replace (if (eql a b) nil (fact-slow< a b)) with (unless (eql a b) (fact-slow< a b)) but it's a matter of preference
2016-07-07T15:41:09Z jackdaniel: right, as a symbol
2016-07-07T15:41:32Z sjl: unless is just something my brain can't process
2016-07-07T15:41:41Z sjl: intellectually I know it's just (when (not ...))
2016-07-07T15:41:54Z sjl: but for some reason my brain has a cache miss every time I read that fucking word
2016-07-07T15:41:55Z jackdaniel: sjl: for me unless is (if bah nil something)
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2016-07-07T15:42:06Z jackdaniel: so you get rid of a middle NIL
2016-07-07T15:42:11Z sjl: yeah
2016-07-07T15:42:31Z sjl: I don't have the same problem with clojure's when-not
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2016-07-07T15:42:33Z jackdaniel: I don't translate it to when, it's awkward to me too
2016-07-07T15:42:58Z sjl: something about not seeing the word "not" in it makes me forget there's the negation and have to think about it
2016-07-07T15:43:06Z sjl: but that's just my garbage brain
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2016-07-07T15:43:35Z jackdaniel: :)
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2016-07-07T15:44:59Z moore33: One thing to keep in mind is that sxhash will give different results in different implementations, and thus you will have different orders. This may not matter, or it might be the source of subtle bugs...
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2016-07-07T15:45:31Z sjl: doesn't matter at all for my case, luckily
2016-07-07T15:45:56Z sjl: but yeah I get that this is a bit janky :)
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2016-07-07T15:51:49Z igam`: jackdaniel: equal objects will probably princ to the same too, so it's not better than sxhash.
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2016-07-07T15:52:04Z igam`: princ (or any other printing) has it's big share of problems. As I said, it's Q&D.
2016-07-07T15:52:24Z igam`: For a specific application, it's better to compute a specific ordering function.
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2016-07-07T15:53:42Z jackdaniel: igam`: I mean that I like its simplicity
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2016-07-07T18:14:43Z milanj: Xach, can I change endpoint in ZS3 ?
2016-07-07T18:15:00Z Xach: milanj: yes.
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2016-07-07T18:15:28Z Xach: milanj: hmm, it is not documented, sorry, but zs3:*s3-endpoint* can be changed.
2016-07-07T18:15:36Z Xach: milanj: What do you want to use?
2016-07-07T18:15:52Z milanj: in-house CEPH
2016-07-07T18:16:13Z Xach: What is CEPH?
2016-07-07T18:16:29Z milanj: it's object storage
2016-07-07T18:16:40Z milanj: which support s3 protocol
2016-07-07T18:16:48Z Xach: Interesting. If it works, let me know.
2016-07-07T18:17:16Z milanj: I will
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2016-07-07T18:20:55Z milanj: (look's like it won't work, Unexpected XML structure: ....)
2016-07-07T18:21:18Z Xach: Sorry about that. I can be hired to make it work!
2016-07-07T18:21:30Z Xach: (i wish i had the free time to do it for free)
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2016-07-07T18:26:23Z milanj: sure, not an issue, it was for prototyping
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2016-07-07T18:30:26Z milanj: I doubt that my company would pay for this kind of work
2016-07-07T18:30:31Z Xach: Pity
2016-07-07T18:31:03Z rme: Throw us poor hackers a bone, folks!
2016-07-07T18:31:07Z milanj: btw. I was using zs3 couple of years ago for some high-volume s3 operations
2016-07-07T18:31:23Z milanj: (tens of millions, and we needed it to be fast)
2016-07-07T18:31:36Z Xach: the latest version has keepalive!
2016-07-07T18:31:37Z milanj: one thing I noticed that that it's not reusing conenctions
2016-07-07T18:31:48Z milanj: so it was slower
2016-07-07T18:31:56Z Xach: patch came from a zs3-using company that is also not funding any development :)
2016-07-07T18:32:22Z Xach: (zs3:with-keep-alive ...) will reuse connections in ...
2016-07-07T18:32:39Z milanj: aha, that's great
2016-07-07T18:32:49Z milanj: this was 4 years ago
2016-07-07T18:32:50Z milanj: at least
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2016-07-07T20:00:13Z Walakea: is there a way to make sbcl behave better at interactive work?
2016-07-07T20:01:08Z oGMo: that would depend on how it's behaving and what you want
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2016-07-07T20:02:37Z oGMo: i haven't had any particular issue with its interactive performance, but i haven't tried writing crysis 6
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2016-07-07T20:02:53Z Walakea: not sure if you know, but guile is quite good at interactive work
2016-07-07T20:03:04Z oGMo: k
2016-07-07T20:03:23Z Walakea: i mean pressing arrow keys prints symbols representing them
2016-07-07T20:03:30Z Walakea: instead of moving
2016-07-07T20:03:39Z oGMo: having written a number of interactive things in sbcl, i haven't had any real issue in that area
2016-07-07T20:03:50Z oGMo: oh
2016-07-07T20:03:52Z |3b|: if you mean the built-in repl, "use slime"
2016-07-07T20:03:57Z |3b|: is the usual answer
2016-07-07T20:03:59Z oGMo: ^
2016-07-07T20:04:02Z |3b|: or there are things like rlwrap
2016-07-07T20:04:06Z Walakea: no
2016-07-07T20:04:22Z Walakea: i mean running sbcl inside a shell
2016-07-07T20:04:32Z oGMo: use slime
2016-07-07T20:04:35Z Walakea: dont want to have to use Emacs
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2016-07-07T20:05:00Z oGMo: if you don't, then you're not doing anything particularly serious, so your options are limited
2016-07-07T20:05:04Z |3b|: there is also the sb-aclrepl contrib, no idea what it actually does beyond having "repl" in the name though
2016-07-07T20:05:15Z Walakea: sure it is good but i want to learn CL, not Emacs
2016-07-07T20:05:55Z oGMo: that's like wanting to learn C++, but insisting on notepad.exe and calling the compiler by hand
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2016-07-07T20:06:21Z |3b| would prefer that to the c++ IDEs :p
2016-07-07T20:06:24Z Walakea: that is how i usually start learning a new language
2016-07-07T20:06:28Z oGMo: writing much more than hello world that way is unproductive and painful, and no one does that
2016-07-07T20:06:32Z oGMo: |3b|: you shouldn't :p
2016-07-07T20:06:38Z |3b|: (if nothing else, easier to replace notepad with emacs when starting there :p )
2016-07-07T20:06:47Z Walakea: < 200 lines of code is okay
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2016-07-07T20:07:07Z |3b|: oGMo: also, would mean i could build a random c++ program without downloading the whole IDE
2016-07-07T20:07:25Z oGMo: building is orthogonal to writing
2016-07-07T20:07:29Z oGMo: even with CL :P
2016-07-07T20:07:32Z oGMo: anyway bbiaw
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2016-07-07T20:07:58Z Walakea: yeah and how do i tell sbcl to compile / interpret a script file?
2016-07-07T20:08:11Z |3b|: Walakea: if you happen to know vim already, there is something like slime for it too i think
2016-07-07T20:08:24Z Walakea: another thing i dont like
2016-07-07T20:08:27Z |3b|: from the repl (load "some-file.lisp")
2016-07-07T20:08:42Z |3b|: well, an opportunity for you to improve the situation for your favorite editor once you know cl :)
2016-07-07T20:08:55Z Walakea: "sbcl load ...."?
2016-07-07T20:09:24Z |3b|: from shell, i think you can do sbcl some-file.lisp
2016-07-07T20:09:28Z |3b|: or sbcl --load ..
2016-07-07T20:09:33Z |3b|: or sbcl --script ...
2016-07-07T20:10:17Z |3b|: --script disables the debugger, while --load i think will leave you in repl after loading the file
2016-07-07T20:10:26Z |3b| doesn't actually do that, so not sure the specifics
2016-07-07T20:10:44Z |3b| has to go too though, hope you get things working a way you like :)
2016-07-07T20:11:16Z Walakea: --script
2016-07-07T20:11:49Z Walakea: ok, thanks for help
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2016-07-07T20:12:17Z Walakea: for now i will stick to Gedit on one half of the screen and shell on the other
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2016-07-07T20:23:17Z pierpa: masolispochism, if it doesn't exist, it's a good new word
2016-07-07T20:23:45Z zannix: i have a question
2016-07-07T20:23:50Z shka_: aski it
2016-07-07T20:24:10Z zannix: sb-gray:stream-read-char should be able to handle flexi-streams, right?
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2016-07-07T20:25:05Z phoe_krk: zannix: I think it depends on SBCL's default external format.
2016-07-07T20:25:14Z phoe_krk: But again, I don't know SBCL that well.
2016-07-07T20:26:16Z zannix: Basically I'm building something that takes a buffer, turns into a stream, and parses with cl-json
2016-07-07T20:26:38Z zannix: and in the past I could just send json-decode a flexi-stream directly, but now sbcl is complaining
2016-07-07T20:27:34Z phoe_krk: zannix: give us the logs of its complaints.
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2016-07-07T20:29:35Z zannix: phoe_krk: http://pastebin.com/MYk3fDGq
2016-07-07T20:31:11Z zannix: some of the relevant code: http://pastebin.com/sPDkywpB
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2016-07-07T20:33:52Z phoe_krk: Welp.
2016-07-07T20:34:01Z phoe_krk: SBCL doesn't know how to handle a flexistream.
2016-07-07T20:34:13Z zannix: that's what I was afraid of
2016-07-07T20:34:19Z phoe_krk: Which isn't surprising.
2016-07-07T20:34:33Z zannix: what's weird is that it worked just fine before
2016-07-07T20:34:39Z phoe_krk: Hm.
2016-07-07T20:34:53Z phoe_krk: Can you find the previous SBCL version that is able to run this?
2016-07-07T20:35:00Z phoe_krk: Perhaps it's a regression, either in SBCL or in flex.
2016-07-07T20:35:31Z zannix: I'll try with 1.3.1, I think that's the last version I used with that code
2016-07-07T20:35:58Z zannix: I don't think it's in flexi-streams because I have the same problem with fast-io. its prolly sbcl
2016-07-07T20:36:01Z phoe_krk: When you do, trace SB-GRAY:STREAM-READ-CHAR and take note of what arguments it's being called with.
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2016-07-07T20:48:10Z shka_: i really hopped that using qt with cl would go smoothly
2016-07-07T20:48:15Z shka_: but nope
2016-07-07T20:48:19Z shka_: :(
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2016-07-07T20:50:34Z pjb: usually it goes smoothly.
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2016-07-07T20:51:55Z shka_: well, qtools seems to not export symbols like make-qpushbutton
2016-07-07T20:52:17Z shka_: and i can't even get along with common-qt to display any window
2016-07-07T20:52:38Z shka_: perhaps my smoke is just in wrong version
2016-07-07T20:52:59Z pjb: Oh sorry, I though you wrote ql, not qt.
2016-07-07T20:53:16Z shka_: hehe, ok
2016-07-07T20:53:18Z pjb: Yeah, qt goes thru ffi, so it's bound to be bad, making C code run…
2016-07-07T20:53:31Z shka_: ql is running great here though
2016-07-07T20:53:49Z shka_: i'm not sure what is my best bet when it comes to gui
2016-07-07T20:54:02Z shka_: i used to think that qt is always a solid option
2016-07-07T20:54:15Z shka_: but i'm not so sure anymore
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2016-07-07T21:12:23Z emaczen: With parenscript, I'm having trouble generating a unicode minus sign string literal.
2016-07-07T21:12:48Z emaczen: The JS output from (ps:ps ...) adds an extra "\"
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2016-07-07T21:13:13Z emaczen: Example: (ps:ps (case val ("\u2212" ...)))
2016-07-07T21:14:13Z emaczen: there is either an extra "\" or a missing "\"
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2016-07-07T21:22:37Z Bike: has anything changed since before.
2016-07-07T21:24:03Z Bike: oh, that's interesting, \\u2212 gets you \\\\u2212 there, for some reason.
2016-07-07T21:28:41Z mordocai: shka_: Shinmera is pretty on top of things I think. You might want to file an issue for the problems you are having
2016-07-07T21:29:16Z shka_: mordocai: i will, once i will be able to gather more information on what the heck is wrong
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2016-07-07T21:29:35Z therik: hello, is it advisable to add mutex or semaphore into very tight loop, assuming that it will very rarely lock?
2016-07-07T21:29:50Z shka_: therik: add if you must
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2016-07-07T21:30:11Z shka_: thread safety is not something you can compromise
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2016-07-07T21:31:28Z mordocai: therik: Ideally avoid sharing memory in that case but if you can't then definitely use something to ensure no concurrent access.
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2016-07-07T21:33:36Z mordocai: Those "this will happen so rarely I just won't worry about it" ideas generally cause hours or days of debugging effort later down the line.
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2016-07-07T21:35:33Z Bike: emaczen: good news. if you just put in an actual character, ps will output the code sequence.
2016-07-07T21:35:49Z therik: hm, that's not quite the point
2016-07-07T21:36:09Z therik: I have two options.. Either add mutex around the iterating part of a loop, ie. the mutex will be released on the beginning of the body of the loop and acquired again when the iteration process kicks in... the point is so nothing can cons anything into the list while it's being iterated, while it's ok to cons things into it as atomic operation
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2016-07-07T21:36:48Z shka_: therik: consing into list is ok
2016-07-07T21:36:51Z therik: second option is, instead of consing in while the list is iterated, i'll just stuff everything that should be consed on the side and then do it in bulk when the iteration is finished..
2016-07-07T21:37:01Z shka_: therik: unless you actually ment some destructive operation
2016-07-07T21:37:03Z therik: shka_: it's my doubly linked list, consing isn't atomic
2016-07-07T21:37:11Z shka_: i see
2016-07-07T21:37:13Z therik: shka_: yes, it's destructive
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2016-07-07T21:37:45Z shka_: therik: if you are concerned about performance, just mesure it
2016-07-07T21:37:59Z therik: kind of a bummer is, if I put all the to-be-consed content on the side, i'll create lot of garbage
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2016-07-07T22:00:52Z emaczen: Bike: What do you mean an actual character?
2016-07-07T22:02:05Z Bike: (ps:ps (case val ("−" ...))) -> case '\u2212'
2016-07-07T22:02:58Z emaczen: Bike: for me it outputs 'u2212' when I do that
2016-07-07T22:03:32Z Bike: (write (ps:ps (case val (#.(make-string 1 :initial-element (code-char #x2212)) "back"))) :escape nil)?
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2016-07-07T22:05:49Z emaczen: Bike: I'm printing out the 'val' I pass to 'case' and it prints "−" but it won't match anyything in the case form...
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2016-07-07T22:07:12Z Bike: Does the code look right or not?
2016-07-07T22:09:07Z emaczen: No it also adds an extra "\" --> \\u2212
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2016-07-07T22:09:42Z Bike: is that just in what lisp prints in the repl, or the actual output with :escape nil?
2016-07-07T22:12:07Z emaczen: I don't see how I can use (write (ps:ps ..) :escape nil)
2016-07-07T22:12:14Z emaczen: brb
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2016-07-07T22:12:30Z Bike: what do you mean use. i want you to just put it in your repl and look at the result.
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2016-07-07T22:12:57Z Bike: adjusting however you're writing files can be done once it's clear that the output is correct.
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2016-07-07T22:15:21Z emaczen: Bike: I'm back
2016-07-07T22:17:20Z emaczen: Bike: even (write (ps:ps ...) :escape nil) prints two "\"
2016-07-07T22:17:34Z emaczen: err, write only prints one but the value returned has two.
2016-07-07T22:17:36Z p_l: anyone tried independently compiling https://github.com/franzinc/clim2 under allegro free edition?
2016-07-07T22:17:44Z Bike: Yes. Look, you're misunderstanding how this works.
2016-07-07T22:18:04Z Bike: The value returned "has two" because it's printed readably. That means that to indicate that there is an actual backslash there, the backslash is escaped.
2016-07-07T22:18:39Z Bike: When you write out the value, you can choose to do it that way, or you can not - which is what the :escape nil indicates - in which case it only writes out the backslash.
2016-07-07T22:18:50Z Bike: The actual string has one backslash in it. You can check with cl:char if you want.
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2016-07-07T22:19:59Z Bike: So, the code is now fine. You just need to make sure that when you write the code to a file, the writing is done without extra escape characters.
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2016-07-08T03:07:40Z peey: on this page : http://cliki.net/xml , info is repeated under two sections "Things With XML In The Title:", & "Things With XML In The Topic:"
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2016-07-08T03:09:07Z peey: Should it be edited and one of them removed?
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2016-07-08T03:11:21Z Bike: don't see why not. it's the same thing twice in the source, even.
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2016-07-08T03:24:30Z peey: Removed
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2016-07-08T03:45:16Z isoraqathedh: How do you confirm that a file pattern matches one file from a list of files, without involving disk access?
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2016-07-08T03:55:56Z pillton: Are you search for files with specific file names?
2016-07-08T03:56:02Z pillton: Are you searching...
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2016-07-08T03:58:09Z isoraqathedh: Searching for a globbing pattern, e.g. ~/Documents/My Scans/Book of Conworlds/Book 20/15a-*-*.jpg
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2016-07-08T04:05:52Z pillton: The function directory should be able to give you the files matching the pattern.
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2016-07-08T04:42:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-08T06:35:03Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-07-08T07:07:33Z papachan: morning
2016-07-08T07:11:34Z isoraqathedh: The problem with directory is that it always queries the disc, which is not something I want.
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2016-07-08T07:18:16Z pillton: Then use a text file.
2016-07-08T07:18:46Z Bike: what do you mean, use a text file?
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2016-07-08T07:19:25Z pillton: Sorry. Cache the result.
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2016-07-08T07:24:14Z pillton: You can use pathname-match-p to perform the filename match.
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2016-07-08T07:24:37Z Bike: wow, i had no idea that existed.
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2016-07-08T07:45:51Z isoraqathedh: Ah, pathname-match-p is exactly what I'm looking for, it seems.
2016-07-08T07:46:53Z isoraqathedh: Yup, thanks!
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2016-07-08T10:58:52Z therik: what's good unit test framework with coverage?
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2016-07-08T11:04:31Z DeadTrickster: coverage in lisp world usually means implementation feature independent of test framework
2016-07-08T11:04:48Z DeadTrickster: if you want something nice and cloud based look at coveralls client
2016-07-08T11:04:54Z schjetne: therik: FiveAM seems to be the most popular one
2016-07-08T11:05:38Z schjetne: Also what DeadTrickster said.
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2016-07-08T12:59:48Z malice`: Hi! I've got ubuntu 14.04 and SBCL from official repo: SBCL 1.1.14.debian and asdf that comes with it: "3.0.3". I want to quickload drakma, but I get an error during compile-file of bordeaux-threads: I need ASDF >= 3.1 to load this system.
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2016-07-08T12:59:56Z malice`: Is there some easy way to upgrade asdf on my system?
2016-07-08T13:00:43Z jackdaniel: malice`: sure it is, download asdf, build it with make and (load (compile-file "asdf-dir/build/asdf.lisp"))
2016-07-08T13:00:49Z jackdaniel: and voila, you have brand new asdf
2016-07-08T13:01:12Z jackdaniel: you may prebuild asdf.lisp on some other host if you want to
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2016-07-08T13:02:37Z malice`: I hoped for something easier (automatic) :)
2016-07-08T13:02:53Z malice`: I really hate the ancient software from Ubuntu.
2016-07-08T13:02:54Z jackdaniel: is it hard?
2016-07-08T13:03:15Z malice`: No, but takes more time than to paste one command.
2016-07-08T13:03:35Z malice`: And the downside is that now it's my duty to update it
2016-07-08T13:05:07Z jackdaniel: not instant enough? ^-^
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2016-07-08T13:06:15Z Grue``: malice`: you need to download a newer version of SBCL and install it instead
2016-07-08T13:06:28Z Grue``: 1.1.14 is reeeeeally old
2016-07-08T13:06:52Z Grue``: it probably also contains a newer version of asdf too
2016-07-08T13:11:43Z malice`: Grue``: I figured that out, I was hoping that there's some way to tell ubuntu to get me some relatively modern package
2016-07-08T13:11:55Z malice`: maybe I should be asking this @ ubuntu instead
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2016-07-08T13:28:10Z fe[nl]ix: malice`: download the sbcl binaries from sbcl.org
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2016-07-08T13:33:31Z dlowe: This is the only mention I'm going to make of this on #lisp, but I made T-shirts for lispers.
2016-07-08T13:33:34Z dlowe: http://www.zazzle.com/lisplove
2016-07-08T13:33:42Z therik: is there a way to print cons cells, ie to prevent that pretty printing of lists?
2016-07-08T13:33:56Z dlowe: therik: you can always roll your own
2016-07-08T13:34:26Z dlowe: it would just look like (a . (b . ( c . nil)))
2016-07-08T13:34:27Z therik: dlowe: that would be difficult, i've got circles
2016-07-08T13:35:21Z dlowe: you know about the *print-circle* variable?
2016-07-08T13:35:55Z dlowe: managing circles just means keeping a temporary hash table
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2016-07-08T13:36:04Z therik: yes, i've got that true, but i'm looking at the datastructure and as lisp converts (a . (b . (c . nil))) into (a b c, it's confusing the hell out of me
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2016-07-08T13:40:49Z dlowe: There's nothing I know of.
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2016-07-08T14:03:50Z igam`: therik: you can use: (ql:quickload "com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture") (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:print-conses '(a b c)) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:print-identified-conses '#1=(a b c . #1#))
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2016-07-08T14:04:34Z Grue``: holy moly, that's a long package name
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2016-07-08T14:04:56Z igam`: therik: notice the discussion on cll. You need a patch in com.informatimago/common-lisp/data/constants.lisp
2016-07-08T14:05:50Z dlowe: I would like to see more super long package names
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2016-07-08T14:06:05Z dlowe: but I also want package local nicknames everywhere
2016-07-08T14:06:18Z igam`: Yep, we need to work on it.
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2016-07-08T15:06:09Z sebboh: So I nuked my system-wide installation of sbcl and emacs and stumpwm and now I'm running all those out of ~/bin. I had to delete some fasl files...  Because they contained baked in references to /usr/lib... stuff instead of /home/sebboh/bin/... stuff.  But I am having trouble figuring out what this last one is. ;; Error compiling /home/sebboh/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-v2.17/swank/sbcl.lisp: ;;   Failed to find the
2016-07-08T15:06:10Z sebboh: TRUENAME of /usr//lib/sbcl/: No such file or directory
2016-07-08T15:08:04Z sebboh: This happens when I type startx and hit enter.  Because, ~/.xsession does exec stumpwm, and stumpwm ... wait that is a binary, a dump'd image of sbcl... probably the old one.  Might have answered my own question. :)
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2016-07-08T15:22:12Z igam`: Is there a /usr/lib/sbcl/ directory?
2016-07-08T15:22:33Z igam`: sebboh: also, look at the backtrace.
2016-07-08T15:22:40Z igam`: (where is this truename called from?)
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2016-07-08T15:25:31Z joshe: perhaps you need to build sbcl with --prefix, or set SBCL_HOME when running it
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2016-07-08T15:28:32Z sebboh: nope, it's all good.  I just needed to rebuild the stumpwm binary with the new sbcl.  Somehow I couldn't figure that out without typing the details into this msgbox first. ;)
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2016-07-08T15:29:26Z joshe: ah yes, actually using the new sbcl is also a good idea
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2016-07-08T15:30:16Z therik: igam`: thanks
2016-07-08T15:33:49Z therik: igam`: awesome, works well...
2016-07-08T15:34:34Z lexicall: How to answer the question elegantly, when I was asked "where lisp is used?" Perhaps AI is not fresh enough...
2016-07-08T15:34:52Z therik: AI is fresh enough again
2016-07-08T15:35:10Z lexicall: really? why?
2016-07-08T15:35:11Z therik: lisp is used in #lisp
2016-07-08T15:35:24Z therik: </sarcasm>
2016-07-08T15:35:29Z lexicall: XD fine...
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2016-07-08T15:36:14Z therik: i honestly don't know, there are obviously few tech companies that use it, but usually alongside C or something
2016-07-08T15:36:46Z therik: generally, I'd say it's used for difficult problems or problems that require good DSL
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2016-07-08T15:37:43Z lexicall: When I met with mathematica in my math course, I just found it a lisp, just a lisp with m-exp.
2016-07-08T15:38:14Z Fade: wolfram's lisp creds go way back. he was involved in thinking machines.
2016-07-08T15:39:08Z lexicall: But when I googled i found i am wrong. They said maxima uses it but wolfarm does not. They just re-invented lisp.
2016-07-08T15:39:22Z igam`: badly
2016-07-08T15:39:36Z lexicall: sure
2016-07-08T15:40:17Z igam`: I'm sure deep in his heart he regrets it.
2016-07-08T15:40:40Z therik: is wolfram actually useful for something?
2016-07-08T15:40:59Z rme: When I've heard Wolfram speak, I've always gotten the impression that he is very self-confident.
2016-07-08T15:41:02Z therik: i mean, is it production quality, I mean the pro version?
2016-07-08T15:42:08Z therik: what I found out, google usually handles simple math queries better and faster, but you have to use one-letter variables instead of "earth's radius", like in WA
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2016-07-08T15:42:50Z rme: So, I doubt if he regrets going his own way with Mathematica.
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2016-07-08T15:45:32Z lexicall: me too. But seriously i wonder how much Maxima is better than Mathematica. I haven't tried the former.
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2016-07-08T16:12:44Z sebboh: "earth's radius" used to be a unit in google's calculator, afaik.  I can't get it to work now. I can get "earth's radius in cm" to work.. but I don't think that is using calc.
2016-07-08T16:13:29Z sebboh: ie putting  * 2 on the end of the query breaks it.
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2016-07-08T16:20:51Z igam`: Well, what RADIUS do you mean?  (mapcar (lambda (name) (list (symbol-value name) (unit name))) '(earth-equatorial-radius earth-polar-radius earth-radius-equatorial earth-radius-mean earth-radius-polar earth-volumetric-mean-radius)) #| --> ((6378.1 km) (6356.8 km) (6378100.0 m) (6371000.0 m) (6356800.0 m) (6371.0 km)) |#
2016-07-08T16:21:29Z therik: any testing framework for parallel stuff?
2016-07-08T16:22:18Z igam`: The point on Earth surface farthest from the center is on the Chimborazo.
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2016-07-08T16:27:25Z therik: wait, how do you even test parallel code?
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2016-07-08T16:29:48Z phoe_krk: therik: correct
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2016-07-08T16:31:33Z jackdaniel: therik: creator of lparallel has written and used 1am (which is similar to 5am, but smaller and less volunerable to race issues)
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2016-07-08T16:37:08Z phoe_krk: I used 1am and I can say it's very minimalistic and fun.
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2016-07-08T16:45:20Z therik: phoe_krk: yea, it almost fits on a screen
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2016-07-08T16:47:19Z igam`: therik: using CSP
2016-07-08T16:47:31Z igam`: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicating_sequential_processes
2016-07-08T16:49:47Z sebboh: Any suggestions for pulling a pseudorandom boolean out of a hat?
2016-07-08T16:50:06Z sebboh: ie, a coin toss
2016-07-08T16:50:37Z Grue``: (= (random 2) 0)
2016-07-08T16:50:47Z sebboh: that looks good. Thanks!
2016-07-08T16:52:05Z dlowe: (zerop (random 2))
2016-07-08T16:53:41Z igam`: (defun hat () (zerop (random 2))) #| --> hat |#  (hat) #| --> nil |# ; seems to work :-)
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2016-07-08T16:54:02Z Grue``: CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 4014(tid 140737229387520): Signal 7 received (PC: 0x40e221)
2016-07-08T16:54:02Z Grue``: The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. Continuing with fingers crossed.
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2016-07-08T16:54:09Z Grue``: jesus, I never got that before
2016-07-08T16:54:24Z sebboh: igam`: yep I called hat "flip" but yes, I have that same code on my screen right now. ;)
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2016-07-08T16:55:43Z sebboh: Grue``, SIGBUS      10,7,10     Core    Bus error (bad memory access)
2016-07-08T16:55:59Z sebboh: You got a "bus error".  Sounds serious.
2016-07-08T16:56:33Z Grue``: well, all my projects have bus factor of 1 ;)
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2016-07-08T16:57:28Z sebboh: Grue``, I'm looking at man signal on linux, btw...  Please pardon me if that sig means something else where you are. But the message SBCL provided seems consistant...
2016-07-08T16:59:45Z Grue``: the pc I'm using is old and shitty, so it might be hardware-related
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2016-07-08T17:00:41Z sebboh: a little googling shows non-hardware sources for that signal, too.  Apparently c++ authors can make bugs that result in it. (So I bet lispers can too!!)
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2016-07-08T17:09:23Z sebboh: (list (flip)(flip)(flip)) gives me (T nil T), great.  But I don't know how to use (loop ...)... so (list (loop 100 (flip))) does not give me what I wanted (a list of 100 Ts or nils).  How should I change it?
2016-07-08T17:09:59Z Xach: sebboh: (loop repeat 100 collect (flip))?
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2016-07-08T17:10:47Z sebboh: that did the trick.
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2016-07-08T17:18:37Z igam`: (loop repeat 100 when (hat) sum 1) #| --> 51 |#
2016-07-08T17:18:52Z dlowe: (loop repeat 100 count (hat))
2016-07-08T17:19:10Z igam`: (/ (loop repeat 100 sum (loop repeat 100 when (hat) sum 1)) 100.0) #| --> 49.93 |#
2016-07-08T17:19:33Z igam`: even with only loop, you learn everyday :-)
2016-07-08T17:19:47Z igam`: loop count!
2016-07-08T17:23:06Z sebboh: I'm having trouble setting the random seed to a known value to walk the same T nil T nil path every time.  (Doesn't matter which, so long as I can get it more than once.)  Thing is I could have sworn that it worked a minute ago.. like, I set *random-state*, tested it, and moved on.  Now I'm getting different values.. and I realize, that there is some specific chance or odds that my test failed for the obvious reason... :D
2016-07-08T17:23:37Z sebboh: bbl
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2016-07-08T18:56:18Z TruePika: meh, I have a loop which needs to execute as fast as possible
2016-07-08T18:57:02Z TruePika: but it is dereferencing a constant (from DEFCONSTANT) every iteration, instead of having it inline (though that is because constants are actually specials, etc.)
2016-07-08T18:57:22Z TruePika: is there a way to define a constant in a way similar to C's `#DEFINE FOO 42`?
2016-07-08T18:58:34Z TruePika: or wait, macros <_<
2016-07-08T18:59:13Z TruePika has no experience with symbol macros, which might be the better choice
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2016-07-08T19:00:16Z Xach: TruePika: which implementation?
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2016-07-08T19:00:52Z TruePika: Xach: SBCL, just discovered I can s/defconstant/define-symbol-macro/ to get it working with no issue
2016-07-08T19:01:05Z TruePika: no more deref as far as I can tell
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2016-07-08T19:01:24Z TruePika: given that I see the actual value in the disassembly now, instead of the symbol
2016-07-08T19:01:30Z rme: ccl, for example, is pretty aggressive about substituting in defconstants, implementations may differ.
2016-07-08T19:01:40Z Xach: sbcl also has defglobal, which has somewhat different semantics
2016-07-08T19:01:42Z TruePika: I'm surprised SBCL didn't
2016-07-08T19:01:51Z Xach: nikodemus's blog entry on the topic is down :(
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2016-07-08T19:02:32Z TruePika: anyway, this loop should actually be fast...ish now
2016-07-08T19:03:17Z TruePika: well, as fast as you can get when comparing phashes (needing a (LOGCOUNT (LOGXOR ...)) every iteration)
2016-07-08T19:03:17Z Xach: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:A3U5wOdPfWAJ:random-state.net/log/3451988257.html+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us loads, eventually
2016-07-08T19:04:06Z TruePika: quadratic time loop over over 100,000 database rows
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2016-07-08T19:04:57Z TruePika: too bad there is no x86-64 opcode equivilant to LOGCOUNT
2016-07-08T19:05:16Z TruePika: that would speed things up further, methinks
2016-07-08T19:05:46Z rme: It has popcnt, doesn't it?
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2016-07-08T19:06:13Z TruePika: hm, yes it does
2016-07-08T19:06:37Z TruePika: ofc I have no idea if LOGCOUNT is _using_ it, nor can I tell easily
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2016-07-08T19:07:24Z rme: I think it's not too old; before Haswell, certainly.
2016-07-08T19:07:26Z TruePika: okay, scratch that
2016-07-08T19:07:28Z Xach: TruePika: it will show in disassemble
2016-07-08T19:07:28Z TruePika: ; ABE:       F3480FB8D0       POPCNT RDX, RAX
2016-07-08T19:08:01Z TruePika: now the question is if it is possible for me to move that instruction into my code instead of LOGCOUNT
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2016-07-08T19:08:30Z TruePika: Theoretically, it should be known the arg being passed is an (UNSIGNED-BYTE 64)
2016-07-08T19:09:02Z Xach: logcount will be used if sbcl knows the argument is an unsigned-byte 64.
2016-07-08T19:09:20Z Xach: you can do that with check-type, or promise it with declarations
2016-07-08T19:10:33Z TruePika: It would be a LOGXOR of two declared (UNSIGNED-BYTE 64)
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2016-07-08T19:11:08Z TruePika: just threw in a THE to help prove it
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2016-07-08T19:11:32Z TruePika: still calling LOGCOUNT though
2016-07-08T19:11:46Z Xach: TruePika: that's a matter of inlining, then.
2016-07-08T19:12:07Z Xach: I take that back...
2016-07-08T19:12:38Z TruePika: https://gist.github.com/TruePikachu/2ea75ed4649c4007c88b8e6d9aeebc22
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2016-07-08T19:13:46Z TruePika: yes I know I can combine line 7 into the LOOP on 6
2016-07-08T19:14:23Z Xach: sprinkling in THE is not a great way to get sbcl to do what you want.
2016-07-08T19:14:30Z Xach: it can do well without THE, and it's a lot easier to read, too.
2016-07-08T19:16:06Z TruePika: Just updated with the disassembly
2016-07-08T19:16:22Z TruePika: wait
2016-07-08T19:16:34Z TruePika: L40 has a POPCNT
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2016-07-08T19:17:25Z TruePika: what is 37 responsible for?
2016-07-08T19:18:37Z TruePika: don't tell me that is checking if POPCNT is availible...
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2016-07-08T19:23:47Z rme: Yes, it looks like that's what it's doing.
2016-07-08T19:24:50Z TruePika: I just feel like it's a waste to be checking that every iteration
2016-07-08T19:25:51Z TruePika: ...of course, now I'm interested in if the VBox CPUID allows for POPCNT
2016-07-08T19:28:32Z TruePika: I guess I might be able to tell by profiling LOGCOUNT, since it shouldn't be called if POPCNT is availible
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2016-07-08T19:29:01Z TruePika: some ASM might be an easier solution, though, for some definition of "easier"
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2016-07-08T23:49:44Z totimkopf: is M-x slime-close-parens-at-point removed?
2016-07-08T23:50:30Z totimkopf: in slime 2.14
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2016-07-09T00:31:26Z John[Lisbeth]: I sort of have a question about the nature of an interpreter and it is a little hard to explain because I haven't built my first interpreter, but I feel I need to build one before I can understand a comiler.
2016-07-09T00:32:07Z John[Lisbeth]: I can write a lisp function that can interpret strings that would normally be inputed into awk or sed, and out put the equivalent outputs that awk or sed would produce
2016-07-09T00:32:36Z John[Lisbeth]: But those implementations may be slightly slower than the awk and sed implementations written in c and then compiled to whatever because c is naturally faster
2016-07-09T00:33:24Z John[Lisbeth]: But something in my gut tells me that if I messed with vop, lisps functions for writing compilers, then I could make a special awk and a special sed which when compiled acted more like a c program and less like a lisp program wich is rewritable at compile time and all that jazz
2016-07-09T00:34:24Z John[Lisbeth]: It would take alot of work to make it exactly the same as what a c compiler would produce, and that wouldn't be worth my time even, but I should be able to write a function in lisp which is just about as fast as c if I put alot of work into designing it
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2016-07-09T00:35:01Z John[Lisbeth]: For example if I allow some small mutability into my program in a controlled way, I can get a huge gain in speed
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2016-07-09T00:35:58Z John[Lisbeth]: So that's basically as good as I can express it without reiterating myself.
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2016-07-09T00:41:23Z Xach: What makes C naturally faster?
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2016-07-09T00:46:13Z John[Lisbeth]: Well there is less abstraction between lisp and assembly. Because my machine is immutable and I can not change the hardware inside it, that means the only thing which I can alter above that is the binary or assembly. And c is very close to assembly and that is what makes it so great for writing fast code. There is very little bootstrapping or abstraction
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2016-07-09T00:47:00Z John[Lisbeth]: Not that I don't like the abstraction that lisps provides, but I also want to be able to use my lisp knowledge to create something which has very little abstraction after compilation.
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2016-07-09T00:47:55Z Bike: it ain't, man. if you spend any time on C you'll learn about the "C virtual machine" and look at the tortured output produced by compilers and so on. It's not a "portable assembler" or whatever.
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2016-07-09T00:50:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: All my programs are super fast at getting to a point where they have to wait for input, the screen to redraw, or for something over a network.
2016-07-09T00:50:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hasn't really mattered what language I've used.
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2016-07-09T00:55:48Z Bike: anyway you... didn't ask a question. and the other day you were asking about cons syntax, so maybe you should work on stuff some more before theorizing too hard
2016-07-09T00:57:58Z pierpa: AWK or sed in C are interpreters. In CL you can write a compiler with only slightly more effort than an interpreter. I'd say an awk written in CL would be orders of magnitude faster than an interpreter written in C.
2016-07-09T01:06:06Z Xach: there is an awk in CL, also
2016-07-09T01:10:07Z John[Lisbeth]: Yes I know there's awk in every language and some perl and so on
2016-07-09T01:10:30Z Bike: no, like, there's a full awk implementation.
2016-07-09T01:10:37Z Bike: https://github.com/sharplispers/clawk
2016-07-09T01:10:38Z John[Lisbeth]: First of all I am curious as to what you mean that assembly is not "portable"
2016-07-09T01:10:45Z Bike: that's not what i said
2016-07-09T01:10:46Z John[Lisbeth]: this is an unfamiliar term to me
2016-07-09T01:10:51Z John[Lisbeth]: oh my mistake
2016-07-09T01:11:00Z Bike: you don't know the word "portable"?
2016-07-09T01:11:08Z Bike: in a programming context?
2016-07-09T01:11:10Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm still and underclassmen
2016-07-09T01:11:15Z John[Lisbeth]: I've heard the word alot
2016-07-09T01:11:45Z John[Lisbeth]: According to my electrical engineer friend "I have only taken one C++ class and therefore do not count"
2016-07-09T01:12:00Z Bike: the other day you said your life would be meaningless if you couldn't program in a particular language. i really think you should reconsider making such statements before you know more.
2016-07-09T01:13:07Z John[Lisbeth]: That was before I knew that the definition to lisp is arbitrary.
2016-07-09T01:13:51Z John[Lisbeth]: and that lisp is simply the name of a family of programming languages
2016-07-09T01:14:58Z John[Lisbeth]: Now I am only unsure as to whether or not my life would have been meaningless.
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2016-07-09T01:16:04Z sharkteeth: on a different note, i'm currently learning about CL loop constructs. comparing do with loop, is one preferred over the other in general? does either have specific things its better at? or are they just two ways to approach a problem requiring a loop?
2016-07-09T01:16:07Z Bike: no, i just... you should learn more before you proclaim things like that, or make grand theories.
2016-07-09T01:16:45Z Bike: sharkteeth: loop is more common. do is pretty rare in code that i've seen. they're both just different iteration macros.
2016-07-09T01:17:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I can only make assumptions based on my current understanding of how things work at any given time.
2016-07-09T01:17:24Z sharkteeth: thanks Bike. do's syntax seems a little goofy on first read
2016-07-09T01:17:40Z Bike: you also have the option of making less assumptions, even if that means you can draw fewer conclusions
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2016-07-09T01:17:58Z Bike: sharkteeth: yeah i think that's basically it. i have a lot of trouble reading do forms, personally.
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2016-07-09T01:19:22Z Bike: plus you can write a do form as a loop pretty easily.
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2016-07-09T01:19:43Z John[Lisbeth]: I feel my rate of assumption making is adequate.
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2016-07-09T01:22:55Z John[Lisbeth]: It is by the process of making assumptions and testing them out that my ability to make assumptions is improved, until eventually my assumptions map well with reality.
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2016-07-09T01:34:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: pierpa: I remember hearing that http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ was faster than Perl's regexp to C compiler, but I've never seen proof of it.
2016-07-09T01:35:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: It was mentioned in Let over Lambda somewhere.
2016-07-09T01:35:10Z pierpa: what proof do you want?  just try it
2016-07-09T01:35:44Z pierpa: I have not measured it either. But I trust the author's claim
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2016-07-09T01:36:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: I could probably convince myself, but I couldn't convince anyone else, and it isn't super important to me which is faster.
2016-07-09T01:36:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: "Why did you choose those tests, Petit. These ones are much better!"
2016-07-09T01:36:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Plus I'd have to write Perl.
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2016-07-09T01:36:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: :)
2016-07-09T01:37:01Z pierpa: just educate people about REs then
2016-07-09T01:37:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: Sorry? I don't understand.
2016-07-09T01:38:18Z pierpa: it's obvious that a CL RE matcher will be faster than one in C, if one knows what's a RE
2016-07-09T01:38:39Z pierpa: (and the CL implementation is half-decent)
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2016-07-09T01:38:52Z pierpa: you are comparing interpreters versus compilers
2016-07-09T01:39:37Z Bike: https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html is usual. I'm not sure if ppcre actually uses NFAs, though.
2016-07-09T01:39:55Z pierpa: what else could it use?
2016-07-09T01:40:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: I thought Perl compiled all regeular expressions literals before runtime.
2016-07-09T01:40:31Z pierpa: it compiles them to some kind of byte code
2016-07-09T01:40:41Z pierpa: which then is interpreted
2016-07-09T01:40:55Z pierpa: while CLPPCRE compiles them to *machine code*
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2016-07-09T01:41:31Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irregsexp/ there was some benchmark testing here
2016-07-09T01:42:10Z pierpa: Bike: the Russ Cox page describes a different problem which some RE libraries have, which is orthogonal to the interpreted/compiled question
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2016-07-09T01:56:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: thanks for the links
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2016-07-09T01:56:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: The main take away from the Russ Cox page is to try all possible paths at the same time? I'm still working through it right now.
2016-07-09T01:58:01Z Bike: well, yes, but pierpa meant something else, and ppcre can't use nfas since it has backtracking
2016-07-09T02:00:38Z pierpa: hmmm
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2016-07-09T02:02:31Z Bike: it uses some closure-driven thing, i vaguely remember
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2016-07-09T02:43:21Z John[Lisbeth]: Another way to put my problem is that there are the haskells and the c's, and the javas, and the pythons
2016-07-09T02:43:50Z John[Lisbeth]: and then there are the perls and the schemes and the common lisps that offer escapes from this sort of rigid syntax
2016-07-09T02:43:54Z Bike: you haven't actually mentioned a problem
2016-07-09T02:44:09Z John[Lisbeth]: It's hard to describe my problem. I am asking you to empathize with me on that one.
2016-07-09T02:44:44Z John[Lisbeth]: Here and #emacs and #scheme are the only places I can really go to talk to lispers
2016-07-09T02:44:49Z sharkteeth: do you mean it's hard to learn different languages/styles and keep them all straight?
2016-07-09T02:45:02Z sharkteeth: i don't really understand the problem either
2016-07-09T02:45:08Z John[Lisbeth]: Yes and that those languages aren't programmable programming languages
2016-07-09T02:45:23Z John[Lisbeth]: fortran is not a programmable programming language
2016-07-09T02:45:32Z John[Lisbeth]: but fortran is not so different from c
2016-07-09T02:45:58Z John[Lisbeth]: haskells syntax is similarly rigid
2016-07-09T02:46:13Z John[Lisbeth]: lisp's heavy reliance on parentheses allows it's syntax to be very freeing
2016-07-09T02:46:47Z John[Lisbeth]: Whereas no matter how you program in fortran or c you will still be in fortran or c
2016-07-09T02:47:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: John[Lisbeth]: Haskell has support for text based macros last time I checked.
2016-07-09T02:47:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: Little parser.
2016-07-09T02:47:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: parsers*
2016-07-09T02:47:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: https://wiki.haskell.org/Template_Haskell
2016-07-09T02:47:56Z John[Lisbeth]: yes and in theory you could write that creates an environment which simulates macros
2016-07-09T02:48:05Z John[Lisbeth]: but when you edited that interpreter you would still be editing c
2016-07-09T02:48:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: It looks like a pain compared to defmacro or define-syntax, but it's still used.
2016-07-09T02:48:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: This is already part of the compiler.
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2016-07-09T02:49:38Z John[Lisbeth]: if haskell manages to break into being lisp while keeping it's amazing typesystem then that will be impressive to me, otherwise I think lisp has better paradigms
2016-07-09T02:49:57Z John[Lisbeth]: It seems as if the rigid typing system and lisp are not compatible from what I understand.
2016-07-09T02:49:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: If you want to see Lisp with static types look at typed Racket and Shen.
2016-07-09T02:50:15Z John[Lisbeth]: You can do static types in common lisp as well.
2016-07-09T02:50:23Z pierpa: if you like lisp more, than you have it. Enjoy. What is the problem?
2016-07-09T02:50:24Z John[Lisbeth]: No need to break into racket or shen
2016-07-09T02:50:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: pierpa: writing code isn't as fun as talking about it on IRC
2016-07-09T02:50:48Z John[Lisbeth]: The problem is as I advance I have to reconcile my lisp knowledge with what other programmers are telling me who don't get the magic of lisp
2016-07-09T02:50:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: why do you think I'm here? )))
2016-07-09T02:51:07Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-09T02:51:28Z pierpa: so the problem is that you cannot choose what tools to use?
2016-07-09T02:51:50Z John[Lisbeth]: Lisp is the best tool until proven not the best tool.
2016-07-09T02:52:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: So is Brainfuck?
2016-07-09T02:52:51Z John[Lisbeth]: I am comfortable that lisp is the language I want and not c, but I still have this uneasiness about me
2016-07-09T02:53:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: They have pills for that now.
2016-07-09T02:53:53Z John[Lisbeth]: It's not time to take my antipsychotics, yet ;)
2016-07-09T02:56:10Z John[Lisbeth]: I just feel very unrelaxed about lisp knowing that there is nothing that makes a lisp a lisp.
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2016-07-09T02:58:01Z John[Lisbeth]: logically I realize that lisp must have an arbitrary meaning in the fast combinations and permutaions of symbolics, but it is hard to accept.
2016-07-09T02:58:37Z John[Lisbeth]: My conjecture is that there logically must be a language better than lisp which is possible. And my concern is can common lisp steal the features from that better language no matter what those features are.
2016-07-09T02:58:44Z John[Lisbeth]: If not then my time spent in common lisp is wasted
2016-07-09T02:58:57Z John[Lisbeth]: that is the struggle I am facing
2016-07-09T02:59:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: Most programmers know many languages. Don't worry about being stuck with one. You'll have to learn a new one no matter what you pick.
2016-07-09T02:59:36Z John[Lisbeth]: I am studying longevity of code.
2016-07-09T02:59:49Z John[Lisbeth]: Code that will run in one hundred million years time on an alien computer.
2016-07-09T03:00:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's what compilers are for, but if it makes you feel better this exists. http://www.schloerconsulting.com/quantum-computer-q-lisp-programming-language
2016-07-09T03:00:44Z pierpa: do you know the 100 year language essay?
2016-07-09T03:00:50Z John[Lisbeth]: no
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2016-07-09T03:01:09Z pierpa: http://www.paulgraham.com/hundred.html
2016-07-09T03:01:50Z John[Lisbeth]: qlisp makes me feel better a little
2016-07-09T03:03:33Z John[Lisbeth]: reading hundred.html
2016-07-09T03:04:42Z pierpa: I'm rereading it too, as I read it many years ago and don't remember it well
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2016-07-09T03:42:52Z John[Lisbeth]: That was a good read
2016-07-09T03:43:16Z John[Lisbeth]: I agree that as computers get more complicated we will eliminate datastructures and optomizations for convenience
2016-07-09T03:43:31Z John[Lisbeth]: and as they get faster we will worry less about the bits
2016-07-09T03:44:04Z John[Lisbeth]: I also agree that in many languages features in that language may have been better as some sort of function that accepts a string which is a domain specific language
2016-07-09T03:44:27Z John[Lisbeth]: which is why so many languages can implement perl regular expressions
2016-07-09T03:45:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I disagree that object oriented as in .net and nmp will live forever, but I agree that the concept of objects will probably survive and be very useful in 100 years
2016-07-09T03:46:54Z John[Lisbeth]: I think also that JSON or some future thing like it will exist so that languages can comunicate, and this will help to eliminate bootstrapping
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2016-07-09T03:48:08Z John[Lisbeth]: I think though that if turing completeness is true, then the only limitation to lisp surviving would be if lisp refused to make a change to the compiler which was necessary for the language to progress futher, and so another language overtakes it.
2016-07-09T03:48:25Z John[Lisbeth]: So since anyone can fork lisp, the spirit of lisp and the unix way will live on.
2016-07-09T03:49:03Z pierpa: or maybe not
2016-07-09T03:49:13Z John[Lisbeth]: I am a nihilist so of course you are correct.
2016-07-09T03:49:35Z John[Lisbeth]: Of course all I can do in the end is make my wager and see how the dice roll.
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2016-07-09T03:50:22Z John[Lisbeth]: I agree with the writer that even eliminating numbers in a language for somethign like linked lists as numbers might be something people in the future would want to do.
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2016-07-09T03:50:55Z John[Lisbeth]: so 3 would be something like '(()()()())
2016-07-09T03:51:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: Peano Arithmetic?
2016-07-09T03:51:25Z John[Lisbeth]: let me do some googling
2016-07-09T03:51:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: Wait, not quite.
2016-07-09T03:51:44Z Bike: one wonders why there's four nils, though
2016-07-09T03:51:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: Anyway, maybe you should consolidate your ideas into a blog.
2016-07-09T03:52:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: Because one nil is zero, obviously
2016-07-09T03:52:14Z Bike: and () is what, negative one?
2016-07-09T03:52:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yes
2016-07-09T03:52:23Z Bike: :/
2016-07-09T03:52:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: You only need negative one because you can represent all other negative numbers as products, duh./
2016-07-09T03:54:14Z Bike: if you have multiplication then you only really need primes, and
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2016-07-09T03:55:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, but we wouldn't want to make it too complicated, would we?
2016-07-09T03:55:37Z John[Lisbeth]: I can make 3 => '(Billy Mays)
2016-07-09T03:55:48Z phf: Bike: your brand of clever is ~too~ clever
2016-07-09T03:55:59Z Bike: i try
2016-07-09T03:57:05Z Bike: i think too clever is how a lot of number representation goes, anyway. this isn't as complicated as church numerals or symmetric level-index, which are totally not my fault
2016-07-09T03:57:56Z John[Lisbeth]: I think one thing which would help is to come up with a computer programming notation which is acceptable for math in schools, which lisp nearly is
2016-07-09T03:58:29Z John[Lisbeth]: Not a language like f(x) = x + 1. That's garbage in my opinion
2016-07-09T03:58:55Z John[Lisbeth]: I might as well have used awk
2016-07-09T03:59:36Z Petit_Dejeuner: peano arithmetic is the most convonient for integer arithmetic, because after the 32767th succ, it rolls over to negative numbers
2016-07-09T03:59:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: convenient* can't spell anymore
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2016-07-09T04:04:20Z phf: does anybody know why hemlock tty would take a noticeable amount of time to draw a buffer. is that their termcap code or something more fundamental?
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2016-07-09T04:09:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-09T04:16:02Z phf: oh, there's no hemlock tty in phemlock, so probably nobody knows..
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2016-07-09T07:06:14Z beach: Here is another argument against generating "documentation" from docstrings: The description of a protocol class should obviously not include slots, since slots are implementation details.  However slots do have docstrings attached to them.  The description SHOULD, however, include the required and supported initialization arguments when instances of the class are created.  But initialization arguments do not have associated
2016-07-09T07:06:15Z beach: documentation strings.
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2016-07-09T07:34:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: But please write docstrings so I can use #'describe in the repl.
2016-07-09T07:42:25Z Bike: i don't think that's at issue.
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2016-07-09T07:48:50Z smokeink: how to inspect a lexical variable? when (break)ing inside the (let()...) the vars binded by let are not shown in the debugger
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2016-07-09T07:52:42Z smokeink: got it, i was missing (declare (optimize debug))
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2016-07-09T08:27:29Z John[Lisbeth]: eval '(+ 2 2)
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2016-07-09T08:27:31Z John[Lisbeth]: oops
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2016-07-09T08:39:21Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Sure, docstrings have their use.  Just not as the full documentation.
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2016-07-09T08:44:17Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: It is clear that there are certain things that distinguish "Lisp" from other languages.  It is just that there is no agreement on the exact set of such things.  It is nothing to get upset about.  The same thing is true for lots of words, like "mountain", "food", "socialism", etc, etc, etc.  This fact should not come as a surprise to you, and it is nothing to get depressed about or to lose sleep about.
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2016-07-09T08:47:14Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: If you want an exact definition, then stick to something that has a document defining it, such as Common Lisp, RnRS, etc.
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2016-07-09T08:51:59Z John[Lisbeth]: There is certainly a difference between the lisp family of programming languages and other families of programming langauges
2016-07-09T08:52:20Z John[Lisbeth]: But these are differences only in the implementation of a turing machine
2016-07-09T08:53:05Z John[Lisbeth]: Lisp uses something approximate to McCarthy's turing machine which is still a turing complete turing machine but different than alan turing's one in design
2016-07-09T08:53:31Z Bike: cats are pretty much like asherovite, they're just different arrangements of protons
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2016-07-09T09:00:50Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: I suggest you read this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit
2016-07-09T09:01:17Z beach: ... because of the way you used "only".
2016-07-09T09:02:30Z Bike: it's like saying "emotions are just chemicals" or something. what isn't? it doesn't actually diminish
2016-07-09T09:03:14Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Also, be careful about the way you use "Turing machine".  Lisp is closer to lambda calculus (a universal machine with the same power as, but different from, a Turning machine) than to a Turing machine.
2016-07-09T09:05:44Z John[Lisbeth]: True a lisp turing machine and a traditional turing machine are different even though they could interpret each other.
2016-07-09T09:06:12Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: What I am trying to tell you is that there is no such thing as a "Lisp Turing machine".
2016-07-09T09:06:17Z John[Lisbeth]: But the compiler of a traditional turing complete system could be slowly modified over time to be closer to a lambda calculus style turing machine
2016-07-09T09:07:39Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: A Turing machine is a pretty well defined machine.  I suggest you use some neutral term instead like "a universal machine".
2016-07-09T09:08:03Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: There is no such thing as a "lambda calculus style Turing machine".
2016-07-09T09:08:42Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointer_machine it's just so exciting
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2016-07-09T09:10:11Z John[Lisbeth]: Well let me try to describe what I mean
2016-07-09T09:10:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I could write a lisp interpreter in bash because bash is turing complete
2016-07-09T09:10:35Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: I think I know what you mean.  Just please use the correct terminology.
2016-07-09T09:10:46Z John[Lisbeth]: Terminology changes from channel to channel
2016-07-09T09:11:02Z Bike: no, well, this is math stuff.
2016-07-09T09:11:11Z beach: I give up.
2016-07-09T09:11:28Z John[Lisbeth]: lisp turing machine has a different base than c turing machine for example, even though they are both turing complete
2016-07-09T09:11:38Z John[Lisbeth]: different implementations which are equally capable
2016-07-09T09:11:43Z John[Lisbeth]: but still different
2016-07-09T09:12:10Z Bike: there's no turing machine though. that's all beach meant. a turing machine is a specific idea. it has a tape and a state. it's not even like a computer. it's not involved with lisp or with c.
2016-07-09T09:13:11Z John[Lisbeth]: The laptop I am using infront of me is a turing complete turing machine
2016-07-09T09:13:28Z John[Lisbeth]: the phone in my pocket is a turing complete turing machine, even though they are of completely different design
2016-07-09T09:13:43Z Bike: well, one, turing machines don't actually exist, since they have infinitely many possible states.
2016-07-09T09:14:02Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Good luck with that.  I think I am through trying to educate you.
2016-07-09T09:14:13Z beach: I tried my best.
2016-07-09T09:14:25Z Bike: two, a turing machine specifically refers to the kind of machine turing came up with for theoretical purposes, with a ticker tape and a read/write head moving along it, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Turing_machine_2b.svg
2016-07-09T09:14:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I think we are in disagreement only in terminology and philosophy
2016-07-09T09:14:39Z Bike: that's what beach said five minutes ago yes
2016-07-09T09:14:46Z John[Lisbeth]: I see what you mean
2016-07-09T09:14:53Z John[Lisbeth]: so I should say something like a turing complete system
2016-07-09T09:15:08Z John[Lisbeth]: Lisp and c are both turing complete systems which are different from each other
2016-07-09T09:15:11Z Bike: sure
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2016-07-09T09:16:24Z ffmpex_: Ignorant noob here, can anyone recommend a good book for learning basic lisp?
2016-07-09T09:16:30Z John[Lisbeth]: You could say that programming languages with a base based on McCarthy's implementation in his essay are more lispy, but no lisp is more lisp than another lisp. Lisp is just the name of a family of programming languages based on McCarthy's turing complete system.
2016-07-09T09:16:40Z Bike: mingus: tell ffmpex_ about PCL
2016-07-09T09:16:45Z Bike: dammit
2016-07-09T09:16:49Z Bike: minion: tell ffmpex_ about PCL
2016-07-09T09:16:49Z minion: ffmpex_: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2016-07-09T09:16:52Z beach: Heh.
2016-07-09T09:16:54Z John[Lisbeth]: People say PCL is a great book but I have been really enjoying this one: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf
2016-07-09T09:17:14Z John[Lisbeth]: It's from the commonl lisp wiki where it is suggested as being easier for pcl: a lisp for beginners.
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2016-07-09T09:17:30Z Bike: yeah, gentle's fine too.
2016-07-09T09:17:32Z beach: ffmpex_: Do you already know to program in some other languages?
2016-07-09T09:17:50Z ffmpex_: Yeah, mostly C++ and bash and a few others
2016-07-09T09:18:00Z John[Lisbeth]: sounds like me
2016-07-09T09:18:07Z beach: ffmpex_: Then you should be OK with PCL.
2016-07-09T09:18:24Z ffmpex_: Alright cool. Thanks!
2016-07-09T09:18:57Z beach: ffmpex_: And before you install your Lisp etc, please consult us here.
2016-07-09T09:19:13Z beach: Otherwise, there is a more than 50% probability that you will have to do it over.
2016-07-09T09:19:52Z ffmpex_: What setup would you recommend if I'm familiar with vim and have no experience with EMACS?
2016-07-09T09:20:09Z beach: That's too bad.
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2016-07-09T09:20:37Z beach: There is SLIMV, I hear, but it is not as good as SLIME if I understand things correctly.
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2016-07-09T09:21:10Z John[Lisbeth]: ffmpex_: we can help you create an emacs config which takes you directly to the common lisp compiler
2016-07-09T09:21:16Z John[Lisbeth]: and that way it will postpone you having to learn emacs
2016-07-09T09:22:02Z John[Lisbeth]: Slime is the common lisp compiler + some emacs lisp built to make using lisp alot easier
2016-07-09T09:22:23Z John[Lisbeth]: And it's not so different from using a compiler in say visual studio
2016-07-09T09:22:33Z Bike: emacs has an "evil mode" that's meant to make things work like vi. i don't know any more about it than that though.
2016-07-09T09:23:21Z John[Lisbeth]: The thing is you don't have to learn teh vim-like features of emacs to use emacs for lisp. Though as you get familiar with emacs you will find that emacs and lisp go hand in hand
2016-07-09T09:23:22Z ffmpex_: I've heard that SLIME is almost universally superior to all other ways of writing lisp... is it worth learning coming from vim?
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2016-07-09T09:23:55Z John[Lisbeth]: well common lisp is arguably the best lisp if for no other reason that it's ansi-compliant, and that if we all pick one lisp and band together lisp will be stronger, so thus common lisp for all
2016-07-09T09:24:02Z John[Lisbeth]: and slime is one of the best most easy to use compilers for common lisp
2016-07-09T09:24:12Z John[Lisbeth]: but there are other compilers for other lisps
2016-07-09T09:24:21Z ffmpex_: I've already studied a small amount of common lisp so I would like to learn that one
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2016-07-09T09:24:26Z John[Lisbeth]: such as racket and guile for scheme and ielm for emacs lisp
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2016-07-09T09:24:46Z Bike: slime is pretty sweet, yeah
2016-07-09T09:24:57Z John[Lisbeth]: If you check the wiki in /topic there is quite a bit of documentation including some books on getting started. We both linked books from that wiki
2016-07-09T09:25:26Z John[Lisbeth]: There's also land of lisp which is a good book as well
2016-07-09T09:25:31Z ffmpex_: link to the wiki?
2016-07-09T09:25:33Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: SLIME is not a compiler for Common Lisp.
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2016-07-09T09:26:17Z ffmpex_: does SLIME use SBCL on the backend?
2016-07-09T09:26:29Z beach: ffmpex_: It can use several different implementations.
2016-07-09T09:26:45Z beach: ffmpex_: But SBCL is the one that most people here would recommend.
2016-07-09T09:27:05Z ffmpex_: Oh cool
2016-07-09T09:27:13Z phoe_krk: beach: on Linux!
2016-07-09T09:27:22Z phoe_krk: People recommend CCL as having less bugs on Windows and OS X.
2016-07-09T09:27:25Z beach: Right.
2016-07-09T09:27:33Z ffmpex_: I'm on arch linux.
2016-07-09T09:27:39Z phoe_krk: SBCL it is then.
2016-07-09T09:27:52Z phoe_krk: Also hi beach.
2016-07-09T09:27:53Z Bike: ccl's in aur if you want it.
2016-07-09T09:28:06Z beach: phoe_krk: "less stuff" but "fewer things" in general.
2016-07-09T09:28:21Z beach: Hello phoe_krk.
2016-07-09T09:28:25Z phoe_krk: Oh right. Countable vs uncountable.
2016-07-09T09:28:48Z beach: Not quite that simple, but generally speaking, yes.
2016-07-09T09:29:19Z phoe_krk: Thanks. I'll either forget it or correct myself more often on that one.
2016-07-09T09:29:35Z beach: Don't worry about it.  I'll correct you for you. :)
2016-07-09T09:29:40Z phoe_krk: Pff.
2016-07-09T09:29:44Z ffmpex_: would you recommend CCL over SBCL?
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2016-07-09T09:30:05Z beach: ffmpex_: Like I said, most people here would probably recommend SBCL.
2016-07-09T09:30:09Z Bike: for just learning lisp it doesn't matter very much
2016-07-09T09:30:13Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-07-09T09:30:23Z ffmpex_: Ok.
2016-07-09T09:30:33Z phoe_krk: For practical matters, CCL has shorter compilation times, but SBCL produces somewhat faster/more optimized code.
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2016-07-09T09:30:36Z beach: ffmpex_: It is also the one that most people here are most familiar with, so if you see some obscure error message, you are more likely to get help.
2016-07-09T09:30:51Z phoe_krk: But that's nothing of importance when you're just learning it.
2016-07-09T09:30:59Z phoe_krk: Also what beach just said.
2016-07-09T09:31:10Z ffmpex_: Ok I've got sbcl and emacs installed. Is there a guide on how to set up slime?
2016-07-09T09:31:18Z phoe_krk: Yes.
2016-07-09T09:31:21Z beach: ffmpex_: Install with using Quicklisp.
2016-07-09T09:31:28Z John[Lisbeth]: what about mepla?
2016-07-09T09:31:34Z phoe_krk: John[Lisbeth]: in a moment.
2016-07-09T09:31:41Z phoe_krk: ffmpex_: 1) Fire up terminal.
2016-07-09T09:31:41Z beach: ffmpex_: Did you install SBCL from binaries on Sourceforge?
2016-07-09T09:31:55Z ffmpex_: No I installed it through pamcan
2016-07-09T09:31:57Z ffmpex_: *pacman
2016-07-09T09:32:01Z phoe_krk: 2) Fire up sbcl in the terminal.
2016-07-09T09:32:16Z beach: ffmpex_: You need to make sure that the SBCL version is sufficiently recent.
2016-07-09T09:32:21Z Bike: the sbcl in the arch repos is... 1.3.6? it should be ok
2016-07-09T09:32:23Z phoe_krk: 3) Open up a web browser, navigate to https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ and download the quicklisp.lisp file.
2016-07-09T09:32:43Z phoe_krk: beach: arch linux is fairly close to the bleeding edge. There's usually little need to worry about it.
2016-07-09T09:32:53Z beach: Good to know.
2016-07-09T09:33:01Z phoe_krk: 4) Move the quicklisp.lisp file to ~ so there's easy access to it.
2016-07-09T09:33:22Z phoe_krk: 5) In SBCL, type (load "~/quicklisp.lisp") and hit Enter.
2016-07-09T09:33:48Z phoe_krk: 6) I don't remember the command you need to run afterwards, but I think that quicklisp installer prints it for you. First go with setup, then go with add-to-init-file.
2016-07-09T09:34:09Z phoe_krk: 7) Once you have Quicklisp loaded and installed, go with (ql:quickload :slime)
2016-07-09T09:34:23Z beach: slime-helper?
2016-07-09T09:34:24Z beach: No?
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2016-07-09T09:34:32Z phoe_krk: 8) Add the stuff that it tells you to add to Emacs's ~/.emacs.d/init.el file.
2016-07-09T09:34:34Z phoe_krk: Oh right. slime-helper.
2016-07-09T09:34:47Z phoe_krk: There's no :slime in Quicklisp. Thanks, beach, I always forget about that one.
2016-07-09T09:35:23Z Bike: quicklisp-slime-helper actually
2016-07-09T09:35:24Z ffmpex_: It threw errors on (ql:quickload :slime) and (ql:quickload :slime-helper)
2016-07-09T09:35:31Z phoe_krk: ...goodness
2016-07-09T09:35:40Z phoe_krk: whatever Bike said then
2016-07-09T09:35:40Z Bike: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
2016-07-09T09:35:44Z Bike: sorry 4 confusion
2016-07-09T09:35:51Z phoe_krk: this name is way too obscure.
2016-07-09T09:35:52Z ffmpex_: Oh ok that one worked.
2016-07-09T09:36:01Z phoe_krk: It'll compile compile compile and finish.
2016-07-09T09:36:09Z phoe_krk: 9) Ctrl+D out of SBCL and terminal. Run Emacs.
2016-07-09T09:36:27Z phoe_krk: A) Hit Alt-x (which is noted as M-x in emacs) and type slime. Hit Enter.
2016-07-09T09:36:33Z Bike: in the future, you can use ql:system-apropos to find things. like, (ql:system-apropos "slime") => stuff, stuff, quicklisp-slime-helper, swank
2016-07-09T09:37:22Z beach: phoe_krk: The correct version of what you just did should be written down on a web page somewhere so it won't have to be repeated.
2016-07-09T09:37:43Z phoe_krk: beach: Gimme a moment to stop munching on food. I'll CLiki it.
2016-07-09T09:37:57Z beach: No rush, but yeah, good idea.
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2016-07-09T09:38:31Z ffmpex_: Hitting alt-x gives me a message "Buffer is read-only: #<buffer *GNU Emacs*>" and doesn't let me type in "emacs"
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2016-07-09T09:39:11Z phoe_krk: Ouch.
2016-07-09T09:39:20Z phoe_krk: Are you hitting left Alt?
2016-07-09T09:39:21Z reepca: alt-x here meaning "press x while alt is held down", not "press alt then x"
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2016-07-09T09:40:48Z ffmpex_: Yeah left alt and I am holding it down and pressing x
2016-07-09T09:41:08Z beach: Try ESC followed by x instead then.
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2016-07-09T09:41:31Z ffmpex_: Whoa
2016-07-09T09:41:33Z beach: Or C-[ followed by x which is what I do to save a few milliseconds.
2016-07-09T09:41:33Z ffmpex_: I think that one worked
2016-07-09T09:41:40Z ffmpex_: the escape then x
2016-07-09T09:41:54Z ffmpex_: I've got a blue CL-USER> prompt
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2016-07-09T09:42:01Z beach: Excellent!
2016-07-09T09:42:02Z John[Lisbeth]: remember ctrl + g cancels any command you have open
2016-07-09T09:42:14Z phoe_krk: beach: http://www.jonathanfischer.net/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/
2016-07-09T09:42:17Z phoe_krk: Someone already did it!
2016-07-09T09:42:29Z phoe_krk: And it's right in the Getting Started CLiki division.
2016-07-09T09:42:37Z beach: ffmpex_: Now you can type forms, like (+ 3 5) followed by RETURN.
2016-07-09T09:42:52Z reepca: does arch linux do something special with alt key presses? I know on ubuntu quick alt presses open up a search window...
2016-07-09T09:43:07Z ffmpex_: Whoa that's awesome!
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2016-07-09T09:43:14Z Bike: no. alt x works for me normally.
2016-07-09T09:43:15Z ffmpex_: No Arch doesn't do anything special with alts by default
2016-07-09T09:43:29Z phoe_krk: Then it's weird that your Alt doesn't work as expected.
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2016-07-09T09:43:36Z ffmpex_: xterm might be the problem
2016-07-09T09:43:51Z phoe_krk: Oh! Are you running it in the console?
2016-07-09T09:43:59Z ffmpex_: Yeah
2016-07-09T09:44:04Z Bike: should still work...
2016-07-09T09:44:17Z ffmpex_: is there a graphical version?
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2016-07-09T09:44:26Z Bike: yeah, the "emacs" package is.
2016-07-09T09:44:29Z phoe_krk: Yes, there is.
2016-07-09T09:44:31Z Bike: you installed "emacs-nox", i guess?
2016-07-09T09:44:31Z phoe_krk: Hey, wait.
2016-07-09T09:44:43Z phoe_krk: xterm screws my left alt up!
2016-07-09T09:44:47Z Bike: or ran emacs -nowindow, or whatever it is.
2016-07-09T09:44:57Z phoe_krk: There is an issue.
2016-07-09T09:45:12Z ffmpex_: Oh yeah it is emacs-nox. I installed it a while back and forgot about it but emacs was still in my path
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2016-07-09T09:45:41Z phoe_krk: Welp. You have two main choices for GUI: emacs for GTK look and emacs-lucid for... well, the "classical" look.
2016-07-09T09:45:56Z ffmpex_: is the other version of emacs significantly easier to use or is it basically the same?
2016-07-09T09:46:01Z Bike: it's basically the same
2016-07-09T09:46:24Z ffmpex_: Ok I think I'll be fine with the console version then
2016-07-09T09:46:24Z Bike: it can render images and stuff, not really a huge deal for programming
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2016-07-09T09:46:32Z ffmpex_: Oh that's cool
2016-07-09T09:46:35Z phoe_krk: Other than GTK providing Emacs with things like open file dialog.
2016-07-09T09:46:50Z phoe_krk: Bike: lucid can render images as well.
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2016-07-09T09:47:06Z phoe_krk: I can provide you with a screenshot of my emacs-lucid running nyan-mode to prove it.
2016-07-09T09:47:08Z Bike: i don't know what lucid is but i was assuming it was graphical
2016-07-09T09:47:35Z ffmpex_: Lol nyan-mode?
2016-07-09T09:48:03Z Bike: xterm interprets M-x as ø. what the heck, that's not even what altgr-x is
2016-07-09T09:48:28Z Bike: well, you could just use another emulator, of course
2016-07-09T09:48:53Z ffmpex_: Huh. I think I might do that. Is the alt key used a lot in emacs?
2016-07-09T09:48:57Z Bike: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xterm#Fix_the_.27Alt.27_key oh, there you go then.
2016-07-09T09:49:07Z Bike: yes, it is.
2016-07-09T09:49:08Z phoe_krk: ffmpex_: it is.
2016-07-09T09:49:25Z phoe_krk: Bike: http://i.imgur.com/k7EKrWs.png
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2016-07-09T09:50:00Z Bike: wait, emacs-lucid is xemacs?
2016-07-09T09:50:04Z Bike: this is so complicated
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2016-07-09T09:50:09Z phoe_krk: No no!
2016-07-09T09:50:11Z phoe_krk: It's not xemacs.
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2016-07-09T09:50:14Z phoe_krk: It's emacs-lusic.
2016-07-09T09:50:16Z phoe_krk: lucid.
2016-07-09T09:50:35Z Bike: argh
2016-07-09T09:50:36Z phoe_krk: It's the same emacs using a different graphical frontend. Meaning, no GTK.
2016-07-09T09:50:42Z ffmpex_: Ok I'll see if I can fix the alt key on xterm
2016-07-09T09:51:22Z Bike: "a graphical user interface based on the old XEmacs-style Lucid widget set" geez
2016-07-09T09:51:44Z phoe_krk: ffmpex_: http://askubuntu.com/questions/442644/how-to-make-xterm-to-send-the-alt-key-to-emacs-as-meta
2016-07-09T09:51:49Z phoe_krk: The first thing that came up in Google.
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2016-07-09T09:54:20Z phoe_krk: Seems that archwiki suggests the same thing.
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2016-07-09T09:54:41Z ffmpex_: Brb restarting X
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2016-07-09T09:56:17Z Bike: i don't think you even need xrdb, let alone a total restart :|
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2016-07-09T09:57:59Z ffmpex_: That didn't seem to fix it..
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2016-07-09T09:59:18Z ffmpex_: Oh wait, fixed a typo and restarted X again and that made it work
2016-07-09T10:00:40Z ffmpex_: Is there a way to enable mouse input for emacs in console mode?
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2016-07-09T10:01:18Z Bike: uh, i think you need something called gpm
2016-07-09T10:02:05Z ffmpex_: I think I have that. Mouse input works in vim
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2016-07-09T10:11:12Z ffmpex_: Thanks for your help Bike beach and phoe_krk! I've got slime set up and it appears to be working now
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2016-07-09T11:19:02Z John[Lisbeth]: I think writing a blogpost would be a good idea as someone suggested earlier
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2016-07-09T12:05:09Z phoe_krk: ffmpex_: no problem!
2016-07-09T12:05:13Z phoe_krk: bbl
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2016-07-09T13:46:43Z John[Lisbeth]: Is there a channel for people who are writing their own compiler/interpreter for the first time?
2016-07-09T13:46:58Z John[Lisbeth]: I think I know enough bash now to write one
2016-07-09T13:47:19Z John[Lisbeth]: I think there was like a toy lisps channel or something
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2016-07-09T13:55:42Z edgar-rft: John[Lisbeth]: there is ##lisp for all kinds of lisp or #gherkin, what is a lisp interpreter written in bash version 4, see <https://github.com/alandipert/gherkin>
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2016-07-09T14:00:18Z edgar-rft: John[Lisbeth]: there is also #friendly-coders for all kinds of programming languages, what is more active than ##lisp or #gherkin
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2016-07-09T14:00:51Z mrottenkolber: (subtypep '(unsigned-byte 8) 'byte) → NIL
2016-07-09T14:00:53Z mrottenkolber: :-( ?
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2016-07-09T14:01:54Z mrottenkolber: oh byte is not in the standard, I see
2016-07-09T14:02:21Z beach: Right.  BYTE is not a defined type.
2016-07-09T14:03:16Z beach: (subtypep '(unsighed-byte 8) '+) gives the same result.
2016-07-09T14:04:28Z mrottenkolber: yeah I often confuse symbols defined by the implementation with standard types (signed-byte in this case)
2016-07-09T14:04:43Z mrottenkolber: I will be less lazy in my next life
2016-07-09T14:05:21Z beach: Laziness is a virtue in computer science and software development.
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2016-07-09T14:07:31Z mrottenkolber: absolutely agree, still I shouldn't spam #lisp if I could just as well query a search enngine
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2016-07-09T14:12:56Z reepca: if I have some directory /foo/bar/woohoo/ and I call (directory #P"/foo/bar/woohoo/*"), it should return a list of all pathnames in that directory, right?
2016-07-09T14:13:31Z mrottenkolber: reepca: no
2016-07-09T14:13:41Z mrottenkolber: reepca: its a bit more... differentiated
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2016-07-09T14:14:15Z jackdaniel: cl-fad has map-directory I think
2016-07-09T14:14:21Z jackdaniel: or something of similar name
2016-07-09T14:14:49Z reepca: supposing I wanted to use just stuff in the standard, how could I do it (to get that same effect)?
2016-07-09T14:15:17Z jackdaniel: reepca: maybe #P"/foo/bar/woohoo/*.*"
2016-07-09T14:15:20Z mrottenkolber: reepca: #p"*.*" means all files
2016-07-09T14:15:24Z therik: whoaa, concurrent  programming is hard :/
2016-07-09T14:15:43Z mrottenkolber: therik: I recommend CSP
2016-07-09T14:15:44Z Xach: reepca: what happens varies by implementation. some include directories in *.*, some don't.
2016-07-09T14:16:41Z Xach: and symlinks are often also an issue
2016-07-09T14:16:46Z therik: mrottenkolber: i have lparallel, but I *need* to share memory between threads, so I'm down to sb-threads...
2016-07-09T14:17:07Z jackdaniel: therik: lparallel shares memory between threads I think
2016-07-09T14:17:19Z jackdaniel: because it works on top of bordeaux-threads, which (in case of sbcl) work on top of sb-threads
2016-07-09T14:17:46Z mrottenkolber: therik: you can pass pointers around using message passing
2016-07-09T14:18:19Z therik: ok, maybe i'm doing it wrong
2016-07-09T14:19:43Z mrottenkolber: therik: send pointer == free, receive pointer == lock
2016-07-09T14:19:44Z mrottenkolber: message passing is not always the right model, but it might make sense to use it to express the algorithm correctly before optimizing for performance
2016-07-09T14:20:40Z mrottenkolber: therik: what implementation are you using? most CL impls I used have shared-memory threads by default
2016-07-09T14:21:24Z therik: mrottenkolber: what I meant by shared memory is that my task is not easily split-able... at least I thought it isn't, you gave me some ideas
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2016-07-09T14:22:54Z therik: i've got thousands of doubly linked lists in an array and I need to move elements from those dll's to different dll's. order of elements in dll doesn't matter, but I need to lock two lists to remove element and add it to another
2016-07-09T14:23:33Z mrottenkolber: give every dll a lock?
2016-07-09T14:23:41Z therik: mrottenkolber: done...
2016-07-09T14:24:12Z mrottenkolber: always hold a dll's lock while using it?
2016-07-09T14:24:44Z mrottenkolber:  measure if more threads == more throughput
2016-07-09T14:24:52Z cluck: implement a poor man's journaling
2016-07-09T14:25:02Z mrottenkolber: cluck: :D
2016-07-09T14:25:02Z therik: on top of that, there's unspecified amount of readers, so now I'm working on read-write-lock, that will allow all the readers to go through, but count them and when the writers want to reshuffle elements between dll's, the read-write-lock has to stop future readers comming through and let the writer go through once all readers are gone
2016-07-09T14:25:28Z therik: i'm complaining cause I'm writing unit tests for that read-write-lock
2016-07-09T14:25:45Z cluck: mrottenkolber: if it's good enough for databases and filesystems.. :P
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2016-07-09T14:28:15Z therik: so reader requests a lock, then sends a message to writer, writer requests a lock, thus writer is blocked... but how do I reliably unit test that the writer is indeed blocked? I can't communicate with the writer, cause it's blocked.. and there are many similar issues, I can't see a solution to, except for a crystal ball...
2016-07-09T14:29:06Z therik: i think i'll figure it out, but my brain is melting a bit..
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2016-07-09T14:30:41Z mrottenkolber: you can't mix locks and message passing, very bad idea
2016-07-09T14:30:54Z therik: mrottenkolber: why?
2016-07-09T14:31:12Z TMA: therik: if it is possible at all, try to log the actions in the threads themselves
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2016-07-09T14:31:32Z mrottenkolber: therik: same reason you wouldn't mix raw pointers and functional programming, it defeats the whole point
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2016-07-09T14:32:13Z TMA: therik: of course, you need a correctly serializable logging facility, which has to be tested -- and then you have the problem that the locking and loggin is not atomic
2016-07-09T14:33:45Z mrottenkolber: therik: you implement message passing using locks (now the only locks are the mailbox locks), and then implement protocols on top of MP: e.g. if you receive a message that contains a pointer you could say the receiver *owns* the pointer, and once you send a message with that pointer you could say the sender *frees* the pointer (transfers owndership to the receiver).
2016-07-09T14:34:30Z mrottenkolber: e.g. the protocol would be that threads are not allowed to use pointers they have sent and it would be memory safe
2016-07-09T14:36:35Z therik: mrottenkolber: wow, thanks for this idea
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2016-07-09T14:39:51Z mrottenkolber: therik: I strongly recommend reading “Communicating Sequential Processes”, it gives you a technique to reason about concurrency
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2016-07-09T14:41:08Z mrottenkolber: therik: I only “skimmed” it myself and didn't understand everything (its quite theoretical) but it really makes light in the dark^^
2016-07-09T14:41:39Z mrottenkolber: its a thin book though, only takes a couple days to get the basic ideas
2016-07-09T14:49:04Z moore33: Philisophical clos question: if you define a generic function whose effective method runs the all the methods of the class and superclass, is it better to define them as :after methods, or with method combination :progn?
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2016-07-09T14:52:40Z beach: moore33: I would use PROGN method combination for that.
2016-07-09T14:53:20Z beach: I do that occasionally, actuallly.
2016-07-09T14:53:24Z beach: actually
2016-07-09T14:53:50Z moore33: beach: Yeah... I'm leaning towards that.
2016-07-09T14:54:27Z beach: I frequently need a different default though, I forget now, :MOST-SPECIFIC-FIRST maybe?
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2016-07-09T14:54:40Z moore33: That is the default.
2016-07-09T14:54:46Z beach: Oh, OK.
2016-07-09T14:54:50Z moore33: I didn't know that; I'm reading the page in the Hyperspec :)
2016-07-09T14:55:32Z beach: One uses it so seldom that one has to look it up every time.  It's normal.
2016-07-09T14:55:54Z moore33: I also learned today that slots with allocation :class are shared with superclasses of a class. I had a completely different mental model of that.
2016-07-09T14:57:21Z beach: I knew that because I implemented CLOS. :)
2016-07-09T14:57:33Z moore33: beach: Heh, that does help.
2016-07-09T14:57:54Z moore33 always thought that the shared slot "lived" in the class metaobject.
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2016-07-09T14:59:04Z beach: It lives in the effective slot definition.
2016-07-09T14:59:17Z beach: Or, rather, that's one way of doing it.
2016-07-09T14:59:53Z moore33: beach: Yeah, I had to fiddle around in the repl and slime inspector to convince myself of that.
2016-07-09T15:00:36Z moore33: It never really clicked that effective slot definitions for slots not named by a class would be shared with the superclasses.
2016-07-09T15:01:17Z moore33: Hmm, I guess that is only true for slots with allocation :class.
2016-07-09T15:02:49Z beach: Right, because the "same slot" in different classes can have a different offset in the instance.
2016-07-09T15:02:55Z moore33: Yup
2016-07-09T15:03:47Z beach: ... and the effective slot definition is where that offset is recorded.
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2016-07-09T15:36:32Z therik: what is the difference between loop's append/appending, nconc/nconcing, and collect/collecting ?
2016-07-09T15:36:51Z therik: i mean, the difference between the -ing and without -ing
2016-07-09T15:37:18Z SAL9000: AFAIK there is no difference -- the two versions are available for those who want to make their LOOPs sound like a sentence
2016-07-09T15:38:36Z therik: SAL9000: ah ok, thanks :)
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2016-07-09T16:34:05Z sharkteeth: this is kind of a broad question so any input is appreciated. i'm working through the project euler problems to help with my lisp learning and just finished #8, which was to find 13 adjacent digits in a 1000 digit number with the highest product and return that product. my solution is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320060 (if the formatting/indentation is wrong please let me know). is there a more "lisp-y" way to approach
2016-07-09T16:34:05Z sharkteeth:  this problem? also, is there a way to get around the "dummy instructions" on lines 31 and 41?
2016-07-09T16:35:21Z sharkteeth: the variable *series* is the 1000 digit number, i just set it as a global variable so i wouldn't have to copy/paste it during testing
2016-07-09T16:39:53Z Grue`: your formatting/indentation is wrong ;)
2016-07-09T16:40:31Z sharkteeth: are the indents too many spaces?
2016-07-09T16:40:40Z Grue`: and, I don't know about "lispy" way to approach, but the efficient way to approach is different
2016-07-09T16:40:52Z Grue`: you shouldn't need to multiply 13 numbers each time
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2016-07-09T16:41:47Z Grue`: though this number is pretty short so it doesnt matter
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2016-07-09T16:42:47Z sharkteeth: what's more efficient then?
2016-07-09T16:43:45Z moore33: As you move through the digits, divide by the one that's dropping out and multiply by the new one.
2016-07-09T16:43:47Z Grue`: that would be Project Euler spoilers
2016-07-09T16:43:47Z sharkteeth: i can't think of a way to do it off the top of my head that won't involve multiplying 13 numbers unless you have a product, store it, then divide off the first number and multiply the next one
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2016-07-09T16:44:02Z moore33: sharkteeth: Jinx!
2016-07-09T16:44:05Z sharkteeth: haha
2016-07-09T16:44:27Z sharkteeth: thanks. on the indentations/formatting, what do i need to correct?
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2016-07-09T16:45:31Z sharkteeth: also is there a better way to convert the initial number to a list of digits? having to convert it 3 times to get to the list seems harder than it should be
2016-07-09T16:46:43Z moore33: Perhaps don't convert the digits to a list at all?
2016-07-09T16:46:59Z moore33: Just divide and mod to get the next digit.
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2016-07-09T16:53:41Z Grue`: sharkteeth: indentation in Lisp is context-based. two basic rules: if it's a function call, align to first argument; if it's macro/special form body, indent by 2 spaces
2016-07-09T16:53:52Z Grue`: sharkteeth: it should be done automatically by the editor
2016-07-09T16:54:19Z sharkteeth: my editor has 4 space indentation as the default i think, i'll fix it thanks
2016-07-09T16:54:27Z moore33: use emacs
2016-07-09T16:56:03Z Grue`: sharkteeth: also, initial number should be provided as a string. that way you don't need to convert it to anything, just operate with string characters
2016-07-09T16:56:45Z Grue`: function DIGIT-CHAR-P might be of use
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2016-07-09T16:58:30Z moore33: even better
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2016-07-09T17:00:28Z sharkteeth: yes i think it may be
2016-07-09T17:00:53Z sharkteeth: i haven't seen the "#\5" format yet so i'll have to read on that a bit
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2016-07-09T17:02:49Z phoe_krk: sharkteeth: it's a format for characters!
2016-07-09T17:03:15Z phoe_krk: Basically, #\something means "character 'something'".
2016-07-09T17:03:20Z phoe_krk: #\A means character A.
2016-07-09T17:03:32Z phoe_krk: #\Space means  . (A space character.)
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2016-07-09T17:03:47Z phoe_krk: #\\ means "backslash character".
2016-07-09T17:03:52Z phoe_krk: And so on.
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2016-07-09T17:11:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: #\Space
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2016-07-09T17:17:13Z sharkteeth: oh! i had no idea
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2016-07-09T17:17:30Z sharkteeth: same thing as using 'A' ?
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2016-07-09T17:18:41Z phoe_krk: There's no 'A' in Lisp.
2016-07-09T17:19:07Z phoe_krk: In C, yes. C's 'A' is an equivalent of Lisp's #\A.
2016-07-09T17:20:10Z rme: sharkteeth: Not really. In C, 'A' is a number.  #\A is a character, a distinct kind of object which is not a number.
2016-07-09T17:20:53Z phoe_krk: Oh wait, yes, it's that difference. Lisp characters and Lisp numbers are of distinct types.
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2016-07-09T17:23:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's like Python's 'A'! Ignore me I'm trolling.
2016-07-09T17:23:48Z Grue`: well, in python 'A' is also a 1-character string
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2016-07-09T17:24:54Z rme: In other words, in C, 'A' * 10 works;  in CL, you can't say (* #\A 10).  Something like (char-code #\A) is more like what 'A' would give you.
2016-07-09T17:25:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: Grue`: Yes, and so anywhere you send a character you can instead send a string.
2016-07-09T17:25:15Z phoe_krk: Ayup - character to number conversion is done through CHAR-CODE and CODE-CHAR functions.
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2016-07-09T17:31:09Z sharkteeth: makes sense
2016-07-09T17:32:34Z rme: digit-char-p is useful when you want to convert #\5 to 5.  (digit-char-p #\5) => 5.  So, you can say something like (map 'list 'digit-char-p "31415").
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2016-07-09T17:40:13Z fourier: what do people use for simple FIFO queues ?
2016-07-09T17:40:26Z fourier: anything nice and fast from quicklisp?
2016-07-09T17:41:13Z fourier: there are several of them there, but what is the standard. this data structure is essential, so I guess should be something commonly used
2016-07-09T17:42:06Z phoe_krk: fourier: JPL-QUEUES
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2016-07-09T17:42:22Z phoe_krk: Very fun and very nice.
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2016-07-09T17:44:51Z fourier: aah but it takes dependency on bordeaux-threads, which I think is too much just for a data structure
2016-07-09T17:45:26Z phoe_krk: fourier: I think it only depends on BT for synchronized queues.
2016-07-09T17:45:30Z Grue`: it seems like the kind of structure that would be useful in multi-thread environment
2016-07-09T17:45:48Z phoe_krk: You can create a synchro-queue for each kind of queue it has.
2016-07-09T17:45:57Z phoe_krk: But you don't need to.
2016-07-09T17:46:20Z phoe_krk: I doubt an usual (un)bounded FIFO queue from jplq needs anything from BT.
2016-07-09T17:47:08Z pierpa: I can paste the queue implementation that I use, if you can't find any de facto standard
2016-07-09T17:47:59Z fourier: I think I'll try jpl-queues .. thanks..
2016-07-09T17:48:36Z phoe_krk: fourier: I'm looking at the sources and I can't see BT being used anywhere.
2016-07-09T17:49:00Z phoe_krk: I think you could grab the sources, slice the synchro-queue implementation out and drop the BT dependency altogether.
2016-07-09T17:49:12Z phoe_krk: If you mind having BT loaded as you use jplq.
2016-07-09T17:49:37Z fourier: I've looked at trivial-queue as well but it is not in ql :(
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2016-07-09T17:51:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: It would be nice if there was a page showing total downloads so we wouldn't have to spend any time evaluating how good something actually is.
2016-07-09T17:51:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: That sounded better in my head.
2016-07-09T17:52:08Z fourier: Petit_Dejeuner: yes like it melpa
2016-07-09T17:52:13Z fourier: *in
2016-07-09T17:52:43Z Grue`: jsut because something is popular doesnt mean it's good
2016-07-09T17:53:03Z Grue`: see: music, tv shows, programming languages...
2016-07-09T17:53:05Z fourier: melpa site is really useful in this case. having something like this for ql could be awesome
2016-07-09T17:53:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: Grue`: Yeah, the irony of doing that for Common Lisp is pretty extreme.
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2016-07-09T17:55:02Z rme: fourier: Do you have a copy of Norvig's book PAIP?  There's a one page queue implementation in there.  In fact, I just found the source code on the net:  see http://norvig.com/paip/auxfns.lisp (search for queue).
2016-07-09T17:56:29Z sjl: yeah I've used Norvig's queues, they work okay https://bitbucket.org/sjl/bones/src/8c853f632f8c8dd9f75dc75a4bd71d8aa72b3eeb/src/utils.lisp?at=default&fileviewer=file-view-default#utils.lisp-116:158
2016-07-09T17:56:37Z sjl: jesus bitbucket
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2016-07-09T18:08:34Z therik: how do I split a number into n parts, such that sum of the parts comes to the original number and each part is an integer?
2016-07-09T18:09:06Z therik: in other words, are there some tricks to split array into n parts of roughly the same size?
2016-07-09T18:09:32Z therik: other than messing around with divisions, modulus, floors, ceils, etc?
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2016-07-09T18:10:47Z sharkteeth: i don't think there's a general solution to that since very few numbers can be divided evenly by an arbitrary number
2016-07-09T18:10:56Z sharkteeth: if any
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2016-07-09T18:11:32Z sharkteeth: past that i have nothing to add besides dividing by 'n' and making sure the result is an integer
2016-07-09T18:12:12Z Grue`: what? of course there is a solution
2016-07-09T18:12:38Z sharkteeth: maybe i'm reading the problem wrong then?
2016-07-09T18:12:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: Grue`: ofc there is! https://www.refheap.com/118feb633284bc39b81429178
2016-07-09T18:13:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: (split-number 100 5) => (96 1 1 1 1)
2016-07-09T18:13:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: All integers.
2016-07-09T18:13:21Z Bike: kind of weaksauce
2016-07-09T18:13:22Z Grue`: (n - n mod m) into m parts and then add 1 to n mod m parts
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2016-07-09T18:13:29Z sharkteeth: oh whoops, i was thinking the parts/elements had to be the same for some reason
2016-07-09T18:13:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: Nah, I'm sure this is what he meant.
2016-07-09T18:14:07Z Grue`: "roughly the same size"
2016-07-09T18:14:11Z therik: ya, they should be the same, roughly..
2016-07-09T18:14:32Z Grue`: see my solution above
2016-07-09T18:14:40Z pierpa: maybe he wants LDB?
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2016-07-09T18:15:42Z lisp461: is it possible to do the equivalent of "(loop for (a b) on lst by #'cddr collect..." using mapcar or some variant?
2016-07-09T18:15:51Z lisp461: So that it takes two arguments each time
2016-07-09T18:16:10Z Bike: you can use mapcon and subseq
2016-07-09T18:16:10Z therik: lisp461: reduce?
2016-07-09T18:16:28Z pierpa: you can't
2016-07-09T18:16:31Z therik: no, wait, sorry
2016-07-09T18:16:40Z Bike: well, not the by cddr
2016-07-09T18:16:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: You could split the list first, couldn't you?
2016-07-09T18:17:16Z Grue`: something involving mapcan
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2016-07-09T18:17:47Z Grue`: or is it mapcon? i always forget
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2016-07-09T18:20:25Z Bike: therik: http://paste.lisp.org/+6UYP probably what grue said, but modular arithmetic is hard
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2016-07-09T18:38:13Z sharkteeth: managed to get my project euler code from ~43 lines to 12
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2016-07-09T18:39:43Z sharkteeth: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320068
2016-07-09T18:39:52Z sharkteeth: not counting the constant and comments
2016-07-09T18:40:31Z sharkteeth: map, reduce, and maximize are definitely handy
2016-07-09T18:42:21Z Bike: find-max-element is max, isn't it
2016-07-09T18:43:10Z sharkteeth: apparently it is, yes
2016-07-09T18:43:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: the :key keyword argument makes everything even  more useful
2016-07-09T18:44:20Z sharkteeth: actually i guess no its not because it looks like max takes multiple numbers as arguments vs find-max-element which takes a list and steps through the list
2016-07-09T18:44:24Z sharkteeth: so its a little different?
2016-07-09T18:45:37Z Bike: apply max
2016-07-09T18:46:13Z sharkteeth: there it is
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2016-07-09T18:53:51Z ggole: They will behave differently for empty lists though
2016-07-09T18:54:15Z ggole: (Probably doesn't matter here.)
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2016-07-09T18:59:54Z sharkteeth: better practice to use (if (eq 0 (length list)) NIL [next line] (apply 'max...)) instead?
2016-07-09T19:00:11Z sharkteeth: or some other test to determine if the list is empty
2016-07-09T19:01:10Z Grue`: (when list ...) works
2016-07-09T19:02:14Z Grue`: also, (eq 0 something) might not even work, because you're not supposed to use eq for numbers
2016-07-09T19:02:50Z Grue`: (in practice it does work for small enough numbers, but don't rely on it)
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2016-07-09T19:04:16Z therik: ha, got it, thanks Grue`
2016-07-09T19:04:16Z therik: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320069
2016-07-09T19:04:29Z sharkteeth: so iirc when evaluates for t/NIL, so a non-empty list evaluates to t?
2016-07-09T19:04:33Z sharkteeth: or am i mixing something up
2016-07-09T19:04:49Z Grue`: everything non-nil is true
2016-07-09T19:05:04Z Grue`: t is just a constant
2016-07-09T19:05:09Z sharkteeth: ok i see
2016-07-09T19:05:15Z therik: empty list is NIL
2016-07-09T19:05:50Z therik: empty list is the only thing that is nil, apart of nil... (don't hurt me lispers)
2016-07-09T19:06:33Z therik: ah, non-empty list... ya, that's not nil
2016-07-09T19:06:54Z phoe_krk: sharkteeth: therik: this is one of the core differences between Common Lisp and Scheme.
2016-07-09T19:07:14Z therik: empty list is not NIL in scheme? :o
2016-07-09T19:07:20Z phoe_krk: In Scheme, () is true. In Lisp, () is false. Booleanly speaking, of course.
2016-07-09T19:07:26Z therik: how does that even work?
2016-07-09T19:07:26Z phoe_krk: Well, there's no NIL in scheme, so to speak.
2016-07-09T19:07:35Z therik: ah, scheme has booleans
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2016-07-09T19:07:39Z phoe_krk: There's #t and #f that are two booleans.
2016-07-09T19:07:39Z Grue`: there is #f
2016-07-09T19:07:48Z therik: ok, that makes sense
2016-07-09T19:08:02Z phoe_krk: Common Lisp has generalized booleans. NIL/() as false, everything else as true.
2016-07-09T19:08:11Z phoe_krk: And NIL and () are one and the same.
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2016-07-09T19:08:49Z therik: i personally like the common lisp version
2016-07-09T19:09:40Z phoe_krk: That's a matter of taste. There are people who call #t and #f redundant, and there are people who call an empty list being "false" confusing.
2016-07-09T19:10:18Z therik: i see the point in that, but empty list is literally just blank null pointer
2016-07-09T19:10:37Z phoe_krk: But, well, Common Lisp has a pretty nice method of list iteration because of it.
2016-07-09T19:10:44Z therik: so if empty list is true, that means nil has to be true, which is also confusing
2016-07-09T19:11:06Z phoe_krk: Just iterate until the list itself is false.
2016-07-09T19:11:28Z phoe_krk: Which might be a source of confusion for the uninitiated. But we're initiated, aren't we, Bruce? Members of the League of Shad---*cough cough*
2016-07-09T19:11:40Z phoe_krk: therik: again, there's no NIL in Scheme.
2016-07-09T19:11:43Z phoe_krk: I mean.
2016-07-09T19:11:44Z phoe_krk: There is.
2016-07-09T19:11:49Z Grue`: the problem with nil=empty list is when you parse json and either null is true, or empty list has to be something different from ()
2016-07-09T19:11:50Z phoe_krk: But it's just an average symbol.
2016-07-09T19:12:48Z therik: phoe_krk: so nil symbol in scheme is true?
2016-07-09T19:13:15Z phoe_krk: biwascheme> (null? 'nil)
2016-07-09T19:13:15Z phoe_krk: => #f
2016-07-09T19:13:20Z Grue`: you can assign it to #f if you want
2016-07-09T19:13:38Z Grue`: (let ((nil #f)) ...)
2016-07-09T19:13:50Z therik: biwascheme> (let ((nil #f)) nil)
2016-07-09T19:14:08Z therik: ah dumb me...
2016-07-09T19:14:23Z therik: I thought biwascheme is a bot here
2016-07-09T19:14:39Z TMA: but (eq? 'nil '()) => #f iirc
2016-07-09T19:15:26Z therik: TMA: but if () is null pointer, then you'd have to do (eq nil '()), right?
2016-07-09T19:15:28Z therik: without the quote
2016-07-09T19:16:15Z therik: it would mean nil points to (), so that you can compare (eq? stuff nil), if I understand correctly
2016-07-09T19:17:18Z TMA: therik: in common lisp (eq nil 'nil) => T
2016-07-09T19:17:54Z therik: TMA: what!?!?!
2016-07-09T19:18:10Z Bike: you didn't know that?
2016-07-09T19:18:23Z therik: no..
2016-07-09T19:18:36Z therik: i thought it's the printer converting () to nil
2016-07-09T19:18:48Z therik: where () is empty pointer
2016-07-09T19:18:52Z TMA: therik: in a sense equating NIL and null pointer only gets you so far as an analogy. NIL is a symbol with constant value NIL, denoting both falsehood and empty list
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2016-07-09T19:19:13Z Bike: "pointer" isn't really a useful concept
2016-07-09T19:19:16Z Bike: for lisp
2016-07-09T19:19:37Z therik: isn't every variable a pointer in lisp?
2016-07-09T19:19:39Z Bike: and, well, null pointer, million dollar mistake, etc.
2016-07-09T19:19:49Z Bike: variables are variables.
2016-07-09T19:19:54Z TMA: therik: as a special feature of the reader () is read as NIL
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2016-07-09T19:20:10Z Grue`: how variables are stored is implementation detail
2016-07-09T19:21:34Z TMA: therik: each place holds a value -- HOW it does so is an implementation detail; that being said, most boxed values are indeed stored as a pointer usually
2016-07-09T19:23:14Z therik: ok, maybe I might stop assuming and start reading..
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2016-07-09T19:51:40Z therik: uff, working... http://paste.lisp.org/display/320069#1
2016-07-09T19:52:08Z Bike: was my solution not sufficient
2016-07-09T19:53:55Z Grue`: this one is Enterprise
2016-07-09T19:55:12Z therik: Bike: actually, it is, I tried it before, I don't know why it gave me strange results
2016-07-09T19:55:21Z therik: now I see it works
2016-07-09T19:55:47Z Bike: phew
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2016-07-09T20:12:23Z therik: Bike: i think i like your solution more though... i'm gonna use this : http://paste.lisp.org/display/320069#2
2016-07-09T20:13:40Z Bike: cool
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2016-07-09T20:47:18Z fourier: how do I specify the type of array elements which are conses of integer and byte-arrays ? will the :element-type '(cons fixnum (array (unsigned-byte 8))) work?
2016-07-09T20:48:14Z Bike: it will (well, assuming you mean integer rather than fixnum), but you should know that will likely be discarded
2016-07-09T20:49:08Z fourier: why ?
2016-07-09T20:50:23Z Bike: because there's no reason for the implementation to have a specific way of allocating storage for such a specific type
2016-07-09T20:51:05Z Bike: well, the compiler might keep track of it a bit for accesses
2016-07-09T20:51:22Z fourier: ok makes sense
2016-07-09T20:52:31Z fourier: when I guess just '(cons * *) will work
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2016-07-09T20:52:50Z phoe_krk: Isn't 'cons equivalent to '(cons * *) when it comes to types?
2016-07-09T20:52:55Z Bike: yes.
2016-07-09T20:53:13Z phoe_krk: then it's a pair of parens less.
2016-07-09T20:53:19Z phoe_krk: (they're expensive nowadays.)
2016-07-09T20:53:40Z fourier: lol
2016-07-09T20:53:59Z Bike: the kind of situation that type might help you in is like (aref (cdr (aref array m)) n); the compiler might have the outer aref be for a byte array, eliding a check of the array-element-type and such
2016-07-09T20:54:30Z knobo1: The best we can do with unix signal is to pretend they don't exist.
2016-07-09T20:54:56Z phoe_krk: knobo1: ?
2016-07-09T20:55:30Z knobo1: to dificult to work with.
2016-07-09T20:55:40Z phoe_krk: knobo1: what's your issue?
2016-07-09T20:56:40Z knobo1: My issue is probably that I give up to fast.
2016-07-09T20:57:00Z knobo1: I was trying to handle them in sbcl.
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2016-07-09T20:58:11Z fourier: maybe I'm doing it wrong at the first place: i'm trying to optimize the sort of array of conses by car of cons. the profiler shows me what the #'< I've supplied as an argument to sort goes to generic #<any method, which after series of calls transformed to #<integer. I know what the CAR of my cons is always an integer and would like to help the compiler to reduce the call stack
2016-07-09T20:59:08Z phoe_krk: fourier: a wild guess is that it would be easier to create a pair of arrays, one of integers and another of arrays (unsigned-byte 8) and operate on this.
2016-07-09T20:59:21Z phoe_krk: These would get optimized well I guess.
2016-07-09T20:59:55Z phoe_krk: At the cost of needing another symbol for the other array and perhaps writing a custom accessor.
2016-07-09T21:00:14Z phoe_krk: You could create that accessor so it grabs a CAR from one array and CDR from another array and returns a cons.
2016-07-09T21:00:32Z phoe_krk: And a writer that accepts a cons and writes its CAR to the first array and CDR to the second array.
2016-07-09T21:00:36Z fourier: phoe_krk: then I loose the connection between arrays after the sort
2016-07-09T21:00:45Z phoe_krk: fourier: ouch. Right.
2016-07-09T21:01:30Z phoe_krk: Well.
2016-07-09T21:01:53Z phoe_krk: Might depend on what operations are used the most in your code.
2016-07-09T21:02:19Z phoe_krk: You could "zip" the array into a new one, sort that one, and then recreate the two ones by writing values from the sorted zipped array back into the two.
2016-07-09T21:02:30Z phoe_krk: But that's going to cost you more than sorting a single array.
2016-07-09T21:02:37Z fourier: exactly
2016-07-09T21:02:44Z phoe_krk: But again, accessing an unoptimized array will cost you more than accessing two optimized ones.
2016-07-09T21:03:02Z phoe_krk: So my wild guess is write both and measure how much time is spent on accesses and sorts.
2016-07-09T21:03:09Z phoe_krk: s/write/implement/
2016-07-09T21:03:18Z phoe_krk: Because this isn't an easy question to answer without any data.
2016-07-09T21:03:40Z phoe_krk: Maybe, *maybe* the compiler will be smart enough.
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2016-07-09T21:05:59Z Bike: fourier: you could pass (lambda (x y) (declare (integer x y)) (< x y)) or something.
2016-07-09T21:06:39Z phoe_krk: Bike: what issue does this solve?
2016-07-09T21:06:39Z fourier: Bike: now I'm doing (sort index #'< :key (lambda (x) (the integer (car x)))) but it doesn't help
2016-07-09T21:07:21Z Bike: phoe_krk: fourier said that a generic < is being passed, so each comparison will have to dispatch.
2016-07-09T21:07:29Z fourier: Bike: hm I'll try it
2016-07-09T21:07:29Z phoe_krk: I see.
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2016-07-09T21:07:42Z Bike: fourier: the compiler's probably not smart enough to realize that implies that the < is integer only
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2016-07-09T21:10:48Z fourier: Bike: good! that helped actually, the sort transformed by the compiler to SYSTEM::SORT-SIMPLE-VECTOR and the time reduced. Thanks
2016-07-09T21:11:11Z Bike: that's... i have no idea why that would happen, but hey, cool.
2016-07-09T21:11:53Z phoe_krk: fourier: how do you check which function gets called?
2016-07-09T21:12:46Z fourier: phoe_krk: profiler shows me where it spends its time (I'm using LW)
2016-07-09T21:12:47Z Grue`: i think PCL discusses this, sometimes both arguments and output result need to be declared to be optimized
2016-07-09T21:12:59Z phoe_krk: fourier: I see.
2016-07-09T21:14:13Z phoe_krk: Night!
2016-07-09T21:15:16Z fourier: bb!
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2016-07-09T21:39:42Z sharkteeth: is there a way to get a loop collect to "skip" an iteration if some conditional is false?
2016-07-09T21:40:07Z Bike: you can put collect in a conditional clause
2016-07-09T21:40:12Z Bike: "unless condition collect whatever"
2016-07-09T21:40:41Z sharkteeth: i'll give that a shot thanks, it's a condition inside the innermost of a series of nested loops
2016-07-09T21:41:09Z sharkteeth: so i have (loop <...> collect (loop <...> collect (loop <...> collect (when <...>)))
2016-07-09T21:41:19Z sharkteeth: and i get a ton of NIL's in the resulting list
2016-07-09T21:41:42Z Bike: (loop <...> when <...> collect <...>) then
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2016-07-09T21:44:37Z phoe_krk: (remove-if #'null ...)
2016-07-09T21:44:43Z phoe_krk whistles, goes back to sleep
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2016-07-09T21:59:55Z therik: so, if it's bad practice to use locks together with message passing, is it advisable to use semaphore with message passing?
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2016-07-09T22:07:44Z sharkteeth: Bike if you wouldn't mind having a look at this, i'm still having some trouble http://paste.lisp.org/display/320077
2016-07-09T22:08:46Z sharkteeth: i think i'm using collect wrong on the 2 outer loops but can't figure out how to retain the collected list from the innermost loop without them
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2016-07-09T22:09:03Z sharkteeth: i'm digging through the hyperspec still but coming up short
2016-07-09T22:13:49Z therik: sharkteeth: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320077#1
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2016-07-09T22:15:54Z sharkteeth: it works perfectly, but can you explain why it does and collect doesn't in this case? i have the CLHS open and it says that nconc is for concatenating lists together, but shouldn't collect do the same thing in this case
2016-07-09T22:16:39Z sharkteeth: because nconc ignores nil?
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2016-07-09T22:17:07Z therik: sharkteeth: when the third loop doesn't any results, it will return empty list, and the loops above then treat those empty lists as values
2016-07-09T22:17:40Z therik: the two loops say: collect whatever the inner loop returns into a list... so if the inner loop returns nil, it will stuff whole bunch of empty lists in a list
2016-07-09T22:18:37Z sharkteeth: got it, thanks. is there a way to make a more elegant single-line loop instead of three nested loops? the only way i've been able to get multiple iteration variables is if they're incremented in parallel instead of one at a time
2016-07-09T22:18:40Z therik: nconc/append is different from collect, instead of stuffing things in a list, it joins things as if they were list... and they indeed have to be lists or it will fail
2016-07-09T22:18:52Z sharkteeth: gotcha
2016-07-09T22:19:24Z therik: also, be careful that nconc will actually destroy its parameters, it modifies the list, doesn't create new one like append
2016-07-09T22:19:42Z therik: but since you're just creating those lists right there, it doesn't matter probably
2016-07-09T22:19:57Z therik: for serial iteration, well, if you figure it out, let me know
2016-07-09T22:20:14Z therik: emm, not serial, but you know... combinations..
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2016-07-09T22:23:13Z therik: what are the advantages of xach's timer over sb-ext:timer?
2016-07-09T22:27:20Z XachX_: therik: none. It is older and was copied into sbcl
2016-07-09T22:27:54Z therik: XachX_: thanks :)
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2016-07-09T23:19:28Z pillton: Is it possible to have an iterate driver insert a symbol-macrolet?
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2016-07-09T23:32:54Z mejja: what is an "iterative driver" ?
2016-07-09T23:34:21Z pierpa: iterate driver, they wrote
2016-07-09T23:34:48Z pierpa: I guess something related to the ITERATE macro, maybe
2016-07-09T23:35:41Z mejja: Guessing is not good enough..
2016-07-09T23:36:53Z pierpa: since we are in the lisp channel, an ITERATE macro does exist for CL, this macro has iterate drivers, this looks a good enough guess for me.
2016-07-09T23:37:12Z pierpa: though, I don't know the answer :)
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2016-07-09T23:41:12Z pillton: Yes. There is a system called iterate. https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/
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2016-07-09T23:44:17Z pillton: I don't think it can be done.
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2016-07-09T23:46:15Z pierpa: probably the macrolet will not have the scope you want
2016-07-09T23:46:38Z pierpa: *the symbol-macrolet
2016-07-09T23:47:33Z therik: is it ok design to call join-thread but not actually let the child threads finish and just keep the join-thread hanging there for hours/days/weeks?
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2016-07-09T23:50:15Z therik: the idea is, I have a connection thread that that spawns two threads for transmitting and receiving messages... but now the connection thread is no use to me, except it has to stay inside the scope of with-open-socket..
2016-07-09T23:51:36Z pillton: Do you really need threads? Can you get away with using non-blocking or asynchronous I/O?
2016-07-09T23:52:06Z therik: pillton: i don't know how to do that
2016-07-09T23:52:25Z pillton: Well there are libraries to help you do it.
2016-07-09T23:52:31Z pillton: iolib and basic-binary-ipc.
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2016-07-09T23:53:07Z therik: i use iolib
2016-07-09T23:55:37Z pillton: I haven't used iolib. I have used basic-binary-ipc though.
2016-07-09T23:56:34Z pillton: iolib should have a multiplexing function e.g. poll, select which allows a single process to block until an event occurs on one or more sockets.
2016-07-09T23:58:49Z therik: pillton: I'm simply using read-char and read-sequence to get data from stream from iolib..
2016-07-09T23:58:56Z therik: but that's blocking, hence threads
2016-07-09T23:59:23Z therik: i'll have to investigate if there's something that'll notify me when data comes
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2016-07-10T00:01:30Z pillton: You can do it without using threads. It is much simpler.
2016-07-10T00:02:29Z therik: cool!
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2016-07-10T00:17:40Z therik: pillton: you're right, there's non-blocking io in iolib..
2016-07-10T00:17:50Z therik: thanks for the info, this is good news
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2016-07-10T01:30:17Z pillton: therik: Great.
2016-07-10T01:31:34Z pillton: I would pay more attention to the non-blocking API. The non-blocking API can be used to implement synchronous and asynchronous I/O.
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2016-07-10T01:33:49Z pillton: My apologies for going AWOL. My three year old son went thermonuclear because I wasn't as eager as he was to mow the lawn.
2016-07-10T01:34:13Z Bike: that seems like a childishness to encourage
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2016-07-10T02:19:58Z pillton: In response to my previous question, there is an internal function in iterate, called add-loop-body-wrapper, which you can use to wrap the loop body.
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2016-07-10T05:25:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-10T05:29:07Z lexicall: Good afternoon!
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2016-07-10T05:45:02Z rumbler31: i've spent more time than I care to admit trying to write a function to convert pcm linear to pcm ulaw.  I've used a few different c and java functions as references and I can't seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong.  while the description on wikipedia seems to be clear enough, i figured parroting c code would be the fastest way to get through this and move on
2016-07-10T05:45:03Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320094
2016-07-10T05:46:19Z rumbler31: but i was clearly wrong.  at this point i'm going to try using audacity to convert a reference file then just array-map the correct values because I am clearly not as capable as I thought
2016-07-10T05:46:54Z rumbler31: I would appreciate anyone taking a look to see if there are any obvious errors.  i've been staring at these functions for hours
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2016-07-10T07:31:51Z internet_cafe: fouric: how are the lisp projects going
2016-07-10T07:35:31Z ZombieChicken: Anyone know of a good comparison of sbcl, ecl, and clisp?
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2016-07-10T07:43:25Z beach: ZombieChicken: Sure, what do you want to know?
2016-07-10T07:44:50Z ZombieChicken: beach: Just a rough comparison. I'm pondering trying to work with CLASH and seeing how I like it, but not sure how CLISP compares to SBCL nor ECL
2016-07-10T07:44:53Z beach: ZombieChicken: SBCL generates native code on the fly.  Its compiler generates the fastest code of the three.  ECL compiles to native code via C, but also has an interpreter.
2016-07-10T07:45:22Z ZombieChicken: So if I'm not hugely concerned with speed, it probably doesn't matter too much, huh?
2016-07-10T07:45:30Z beach: ZombieChicken: CLISP has been neglected for a while so it has some problems, but I hear that it is being maintained again.  It has a bytecode compiler so it is slower than the others.
2016-07-10T07:45:49Z beach: ZombieChicken: That is probably true.
2016-07-10T07:45:52Z ZombieChicken: beach: What kind of problems?
2016-07-10T07:46:22Z beach: ZombieChicken: I don't know the details.  Mainly some non-conforming behavior in some cases.
2016-07-10T07:46:43Z ZombieChicken: Ah, okay
2016-07-10T07:46:56Z ZombieChicken: I think I'll avoid it in that case.
2016-07-10T07:47:09Z beach: ZombieChicken: I hear CLISP has better error messages than SBCL.
2016-07-10T07:47:32Z beach: It is true that I sometimes find the SBCL error messages somewhat incomprehensible.
2016-07-10T07:48:21Z beach: ... such as "NIL is not a number".  This message contains absolutely no information because every Common Lisp programmer knows that.
2016-07-10T07:49:01Z ZombieChicken: ty for the info
2016-07-10T07:49:08Z beach: ywlcm
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2016-07-10T09:16:44Z Grue`: SBCL compile warnings are much better than CLISP's though, it catches almost every typo. I was pretty impressed when I switched from CLISP which never did that
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2016-07-10T09:35:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: Grue`: Can you give an example?
2016-07-10T09:36:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: Er, of what kind of typos are different.
2016-07-10T09:37:30Z Grue`: last time I used CLISP was many years ago, but e.g. when you mix up arguments of gethash CLISP can't give a warning
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2016-07-10T09:38:20Z Grue`: but SBCL can in some cases
2016-07-10T09:39:40Z Grue`: also it warns about unused variables, and assigning to non-defined global variables
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2016-07-10T11:21:06Z totimkopf: why does (documentation 'read-line 'function) return NIL? :I
2016-07-10T11:22:10Z pillton: There may not be any documentation assigned to the function.
2016-07-10T11:23:25Z pillton: Most people use C-c C-d h to look up documentation for operators/types/variables defined in the standard.
2016-07-10T11:24:17Z totimkopf: pillton: thanks
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2016-07-10T11:27:24Z totimkopf: ah, its hooked up to lispworks documentation... i must grab this for offline use
2016-07-10T11:27:37Z pillton: That is possible.
2016-07-10T11:28:31Z pillton: Emacs has a variable, common-lisp-hyperspec-root, which you can customize.
2016-07-10T11:29:13Z totimkopf: pillton: thanks again :)
2016-07-10T11:35:27Z shka_: hi
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2016-07-10T11:41:36Z pillton: totimkopf: You are welcome.
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2016-07-10T12:13:20Z sjl: weitz' lisp book mentions in passing that some implementations support weak arrays, like weak hash tables.  anyone know which ones those are?
2016-07-10T12:13:27Z sjl: google shows me lispworks has them
2016-07-10T12:13:45Z sjl: sbcl and ccl's manuals don't seem to mention them (ccl has "populations" but not arrays)
2016-07-10T12:14:32Z sjl: actually what I really would like is an array that treats things beyond the fill-pointer as weak
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2016-07-10T12:44:46Z scymtym: sjl: you could transform those elements using MAKE-WEAK-POINTER when you decrease the fill-pointer
2016-07-10T12:45:33Z sjl: scymtym: if I'm gonna touch them when I pop I may as well just null them out...
2016-07-10T12:46:17Z sjl: it's not a huge deal, just a loop to null out the range I just popped I guess
2016-07-10T12:47:12Z scymtym: sjl: i see, i thought you wanted to potentially reuse not-yet-collected elements. otherwise (fill ... 0) should be fine
2016-07-10T12:48:34Z sjl: ah I didn't know about fill -- that's even easier
2016-07-10T12:48:45Z scymtym: i can be more efficient, too
2016-07-10T12:48:46Z scymtym: it
2016-07-10T12:48:51Z sjl: yeah
2016-07-10T12:50:23Z sjl: context for this for the morbidly curious (rambling): https://bitbucket.org/sjl/.plan#markdown-header-2016-07-10
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2016-07-10T14:30:01Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm working on my blogpost in answer's to beach's and other's comments, and I am working on my first interpreter that I want to be similar to lisp but with slightly syntax rules. I've almost finished the repl for it
2016-07-10T14:30:36Z John[Lisbeth]: but the base of the interpreter will be written in bash because I know bash better
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2016-07-10T14:44:31Z John[Lisbeth]: this is what I've got so far http://sprunge.us/BBDR
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2016-07-10T14:47:02Z schjetne: Perhaps #lispcafe material?
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2016-07-10T15:59:09Z Bike: John[Lisbeth]: you should probably just write it in lisp so you don't need to bother with parsing. a basic scheme is like a page of code
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2016-07-10T16:29:27Z therik: if I want to run timer in a separate thread, what do I use as function for that thread?
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2016-07-10T16:40:08Z phoe_krk: therik: I think you can use an ordinary counter using GET-INTERNAL-TIME or something, and BT's INTERRUPT-THREAD for making that thread evaluate something that e.g. prints something to the screen.
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2016-07-10T16:44:24Z phoe_krk: I shouldn't Lisp when I'm doing elsethings. I counted three somethings in my previous post.
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2016-07-10T17:44:08Z drmeister: Lets say I have a file containing a list of strings that I want to read at compile-time and I need to compile it into a file as a load-time-value.
2016-07-10T17:47:27Z drmeister: Thinking...
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2016-07-10T17:48:36Z drmeister: I'm confusing myself - it's been a while since I thought about this.
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2016-07-10T17:55:02Z drmeister: How do I make a value available at load-time from a file available at compile-time and that I want to embed in the compiled file.
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2016-07-10T17:55:21Z drmeister: I know that this is confused - but something like this:
2016-07-10T17:55:23Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wnX7tRVw/
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2016-07-10T17:56:07Z drmeister: Should I use #. ?
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2016-07-10T17:57:03Z drmeister: The info that I need to compile into the FASL file is a list of strings that I can read at compile time.
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2016-07-10T18:09:32Z rumbler31: i have a function that I'm too stupid to debug.  so instead I used an already working program to precompute the correct output for each 16 bit integer input and read the results into an array, and it works
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2016-07-10T18:10:32Z rumbler31: if I want to be able to recreate lisp images with this array, would it be better to have a build step that reads the input and output files and rebuilds the array, or get a printable representation that will be loaded from a code file instead?
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2016-07-10T18:18:02Z flip214: Is there a way to get one of a class' :INITARG to be passed through a function before being stored? Ie. like defining a SETF accessor? The only idea I had was to override SHARED-INSTANCE, and to filter that one argument out before calling NEXT-METHOD. Is there a simpler way?
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2016-07-10T18:24:57Z flip214: alternatively, would instance access get much slower for all slots if I renamed the slot and provided a custom SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS for the original slot-name?
2016-07-10T18:26:29Z pierpa: rumbler31: what is the function that you are precomputing in the array?
2016-07-10T18:26:44Z rumbler31: conversion of pcm linear to pcm ulaw.
2016-07-10T18:27:08Z drmeister: I think I'm looking for something like this:
2016-07-10T18:27:10Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ttzwyBgH/
2016-07-10T18:27:12Z rumbler31: i've tried to mimic a few different implementation examples in other languages and on the surface it seems easy but
2016-07-10T18:28:10Z rumbler31: i ended up making an input file I passed to audacity, then used audacity to convert the file to ulaw, and then just read in the values and stored the corresponding output value
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2016-07-10T18:28:44Z rumbler31: i'd eventually like to know why my other approaches were failing
2016-07-10T18:28:46Z pierpa: do you need the speed of the precomputed array? or it doesn't matter
2016-07-10T18:29:21Z rumbler31: no, it probably doesn't matter, its just that after trying it a few different ways i realized I could simply precompute it with a known good tool
2016-07-10T18:29:42Z pierpa: yes, got it
2016-07-10T18:29:47Z rumbler31: i'd rather know I can code it, and I haven't come up against something like this that I haven't been able to debug, so its frustrating
2016-07-10T18:32:45Z pierpa: can you share your bugged attempt?
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2016-07-10T18:40:05Z Grue`: flip214: you can define a setf accessor. (defmethod (setf foo) ...)
2016-07-10T18:40:53Z Grue`: also, if you don't want to redefine the default accessor, you can add an :around method
2016-07-10T18:41:48Z rumbler31: pierpa: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320094
2016-07-10T18:41:51Z Grue`: oh wait, I misunderstood the question (like always)
2016-07-10T18:42:29Z Grue`: flip214: you just need to process this initarg in initialize-instance :after
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2016-07-10T18:43:11Z Grue`: same way as adding non-default initargs
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2016-07-10T19:01:55Z rumbler31: pierpa: the first function is an attempt to parrot this :http://opensource.apple.com//source/tcl/tcl-20/tcl_ext/snack/snack/generic/g711.c
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2016-07-10T19:14:58Z rumbler31: when managing threads, is it an appropriate idiom to pass back a closure after a thread has ben created, wherein the loop in the thread is checking on the state of some variable in the closure to change, that variable being changed by a function call returned with the closure?
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2016-07-10T19:15:57Z rumbler31: like I need a thread to loop, pulling or pushing data through streams, and to stop when the application decides to stop.
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2016-07-10T19:45:36Z Grue`: rumbler31: threads share global variables, you just need a defvar or something
2016-07-10T19:46:04Z Grue`: pretty sure that closure thing wouldn't work
2016-07-10T19:46:09Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320146
2016-07-10T19:46:41Z rumbler31: well so you're saying if I had a few of these, i'd have to index into an array or keep separate globals to manage their state?
2016-07-10T19:46:57Z Grue`: new thread starts in a null lexical environment
2016-07-10T19:47:25Z Grue`: so it won't see state
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2016-07-10T19:52:02Z rumbler31: huh....
2016-07-10T19:52:23Z rumbler31: well at some point it has to see state that is changed from outside the thread, right?
2016-07-10T19:55:08Z Grue`: what is "it"? if something is stored in a lexical variable, or non-local dynamic variable other threads can't see it
2016-07-10T19:55:30Z Grue`: *non-global
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2016-07-10T19:58:54Z Grue`: also this might be actually implementation-dependent because threading is not specified in the standard
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2016-07-10T19:59:59Z rumbler31: well isn't that the idea behind a closure? that things lexically related inside a closure can see the closure "state" or variables and such defined within, and if you invoke a function from a closure it will be able to see/modify the variables inside it?
2016-07-10T20:00:02Z rumbler31: oh ok
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2016-07-10T20:03:34Z Grue`: the idea of closure capturing variables in its lexical environment was conceived wrt single-threaded environment. implementing multi-threaded variable capture is probably difficult, and would just make threads perform slower than they could be
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2016-07-10T20:44:14Z pierpa: rumbler31: how do you check if the function is working or not?
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2016-07-10T20:44:59Z pierpa: I transliterated to CL this one http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/comp.speech/Section2/Q2.7.htmland get the same results as your last 2
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2016-07-10T20:47:39Z pierpa: actually, no, it's not the same
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2016-07-10T20:50:26Z rumbler31: pierpa: I look at the sound file in audacity, my last two attemps appear to produce correct positive ulaw values and not negative ones
2016-07-10T20:51:47Z rumbler31: since I know have a known good mapping I can directly test but I still just don't understand what correct output is supposed to be.  I need to really study the spec, because it seems like the wiki page for the discretized ulaw mapping and the apple c code file example differ, assuming I can still read C code
2016-07-10T20:51:53Z pierpa: check #4 here https://bpaste.net/show/bcdff45b2f0d
2016-07-10T20:53:36Z pierpa: probably your use of LOGXOR is wrong
2016-07-10T20:53:44Z rumbler31: pierpa: ok let me check it out.
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2016-07-10T20:54:34Z pierpa: oops, I forgot to check for the ZEROTRAP, hope it's not important
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2016-07-10T20:59:47Z pierpa: rumbler31: definitely you meant LOGAND instead of LOGXOR
2016-07-10T21:00:15Z rumbler31: hmm
2016-07-10T21:00:26Z rumbler31: in which case?
2016-07-10T21:00:41Z pierpa: in mulaw3
2016-07-10T21:03:12Z rumbler31: ok that one I was following along from the itu reference code sample, let me pull it up again
2016-07-10T21:04:11Z rumbler31: no, i'm wrong, it was from the one you linke
2016-07-10T21:04:44Z rumbler31: ahh so that last c operator is negation i think
2016-07-10T21:04:47Z rumbler31: or complement
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2016-07-10T21:06:05Z pierpa: ~ is bitwise complement
2016-07-10T21:06:12Z rumbler31: doesn't xoring the bytes with all 1's effect a complement?
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2016-07-10T21:06:36Z pierpa: but you don't do this. you xor with FF
2016-07-10T21:06:51Z pierpa: no, wait
2016-07-10T21:07:00Z rumbler31: which is 16 bits of 1's, right?
2016-07-10T21:07:04Z pierpa: no, yes :)
2016-07-10T21:07:22Z pierpa: but ulawbyte, as the name implies must be 8 bit
2016-07-10T21:07:29Z rumbler31: er derp
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2016-07-10T21:08:07Z pierpa: anyway, is mulaw4 correct?
2016-07-10T21:08:12Z rumbler31: i guess I end up creating a 16 bit integer again, and passing that right out
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2016-07-10T21:10:23Z rumbler31: you do the same, but with logand, I guess if the high bits are all 0 then it doesn't matter
2016-07-10T21:10:28Z rumbler31: let me run it
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2016-07-10T21:10:55Z pierpa: the result of mulaw4 looks more plausible, to me
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2016-07-10T21:11:17Z pierpa: try TESTALL
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2016-07-10T21:14:56Z rumbler31: yes mulaw5 is correct
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2016-07-10T21:19:09Z phoe_krk: rumbler31: What's mulaw3 and how is it different from mulaw4 and mulaw5?
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2016-07-10T21:20:53Z rumbler31: phoe_krk: I wrote 3 different versions of a pcm linear to pcm ulaw conversion function trying to simply parrot existing code examples
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2016-07-10T21:21:02Z phoe_krk: Oh, I see!
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2016-07-10T21:21:25Z rumbler31: pierpa wrote a version that is correct.  I dunno if that's what you mean about 4 and 5
2016-07-10T21:24:11Z pierpa: ok :)
2016-07-10T21:26:15Z rumbler31: pierpa: can you see where i'm going wrong, in at least mulaw3?
2016-07-10T21:26:30Z pierpa: the LOGXOR?
2016-07-10T21:26:32Z rumbler31: and thank you for doing this, i'm really embarrassed at how long it took me to fail at it
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2016-07-10T21:27:18Z pierpa: I suppose in mulaw3 you started from the same code I linked?
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2016-07-10T21:27:42Z rumbler31: yes
2016-07-10T21:28:27Z rumbler31: if I logxor against #xf instead, all of my positive values are correct, but with logand, won't 1 bits remain 1?
2016-07-10T21:28:39Z pierpa: hmmm
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2016-07-10T21:29:18Z pierpa: the original code uses LOGAND #xFF, why you want to use something else?
2016-07-10T21:29:56Z rumbler31: doesn't the original code use a complement of the constructed byte?
2016-07-10T21:30:13Z pierpa: anyway your transliteration is wrong
2016-07-10T21:30:43Z rumbler31: maybe we're talking about different lines?
2016-07-10T21:30:46Z pierpa: the algorithm linked does if sign != 0 then linear = -linear
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2016-07-10T21:31:09Z pierpa: you translate this in something barely recognizable, which does a different thing
2016-07-10T21:31:45Z pierpa: instead of the obvious identical code with some parentheses added
2016-07-10T21:32:35Z rumbler31: i compressed a few steps on that one, I guess my misunderstanding is that complementing a negative value /= the positive value
2016-07-10T21:33:08Z pierpa: oki. I'd avoid compressions when implementing an unfamiliar algorithm
2016-07-10T21:33:24Z pierpa: optimizations can come later, if needed
2016-07-10T21:33:35Z rumbler31: so (abs -1) isn't the same thing as (- -1) ?
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2016-07-10T21:33:47Z flip214: Grue`: thanks
2016-07-10T21:33:58Z pierpa: (abs -1 is 1  :)
2016-07-10T21:35:13Z rumbler31: I don't mean to sound argumentative, I know i wrote it wrong, i'm just trying to figure out exactly where
2016-07-10T21:35:32Z pierpa: I'm not reading you as argumentative :)
2016-07-10T21:35:53Z pierpa: I'm trying to understand your code
2016-07-10T21:35:58Z rumbler31: oh ok
2016-07-10T21:36:26Z rumbler31: so i figured that the if sign != 0 then linear = -linear is the same thing as saying "take the absolute value"
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2016-07-10T21:36:43Z rumbler31: because i've already captured the original polarity
2016-07-10T21:37:14Z rumbler31: so therefore if I simply take the absolute value of linear, no matter positive or negative, it will produce the same effect
2016-07-10T21:37:28Z pierpa: ok. got it
2016-07-10T21:37:49Z pierpa: the value of sign is not the sign of linear
2016-07-10T21:38:15Z pierpa: sign is the sign of the BYTE linear
2016-07-10T21:38:54Z pierpa: so linear may be positive, but it's least significant byte may be negative
2016-07-10T21:39:00Z pierpa: *its
2016-07-10T21:39:21Z pierpa: so, you mixed two different unrelated signs
2016-07-10T21:40:42Z pierpa: I mean 16bit chunk, not byte, above
2016-07-10T21:41:45Z rumbler31: what confuses me about what you just said, is that we're storing the leftmost bit value
2016-07-10T21:42:25Z rumbler31: if this value is 1, assuming twos complement binary, we're dealing with a negative number, right? that this bit is also the msb?
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2016-07-10T21:45:01Z pierpa: try this expression
2016-07-10T21:45:04Z pierpa: (let* ((sample (1- (expt 2 16)))
2016-07-10T21:45:05Z pierpa:                   (sign (logand #x80 (ash sample -8))))
2016-07-10T21:45:05Z pierpa:              sign)
2016-07-10T21:45:43Z pierpa: no, wait
2016-07-10T21:48:08Z rumbler31: oh i see
2016-07-10T21:48:28Z rumbler31: we're moving the lsb to the...
2016-07-10T21:48:55Z rumbler31: left
2016-07-10T21:49:02Z rumbler31: then taking the high bit
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2016-07-10T21:50:47Z pierpa: https://bpaste.net/show/0c6e3e509eea
2016-07-10T21:51:15Z pierpa: yes, "sign" is bit 15 of the sample
2016-07-10T21:51:36Z pierpa: the paste there's correct code and your code evaluated on 65535
2016-07-10T21:52:15Z rumbler31: yep
2016-07-10T21:52:17Z rumbler31: thank you
2016-07-10T21:52:59Z pierpa: because 60000 is positive to CL, but is negative in 16 bit signed arithmetic
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2016-07-10T21:56:36Z rumbler31: further, why would the "sign" bit be found in the lsb?
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2016-07-10T21:58:23Z rumbler31: or assuming two's complement, it could be part of the leading 1's for small negative values, otherwise represent a bit in the magnitude for larger values, right?
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2016-07-10T22:01:35Z pierpa: sign is in bit 15, that is the MSB of the sample. Not sure I understood the question, though
2016-07-10T22:04:17Z therik: is there a way to extend the loop macro and teach it new iterations?
2016-07-10T22:05:17Z therik: actually, it might be easier to do macro on top of do
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2016-07-10T22:09:10Z rumbler31: we mask #x80 with the result of shifting the sample to the left 8 bits
2016-07-10T22:09:39Z rumbler31: so wouldn't that be taking the #x08 bit in the sample and simply storing its result in the #x80 bit?
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2016-07-10T22:22:54Z pierpa: btw, I don't understand why they do it in this way
2016-07-10T22:23:24Z sjl: is there a built-in function for copying data from one array into part of another?
2016-07-10T22:23:35Z pierpa: (logand sample #x8000)  would have the same effect, methinks
2016-07-10T22:23:58Z pierpa: sjl, yes:  (setf subseq)
2016-07-10T22:24:06Z sjl: basically a built in versoin of (loop for el across source-array for addr from start (setf (aref dest addr) el))
2016-07-10T22:24:24Z sjl: oh nice
2016-07-10T22:24:28Z pierpa: (setf (subseq ...) (subseq ...))
2016-07-10T22:24:36Z rumbler31: pierpa: I got punted, so if you said something i might have missed it
2016-07-10T22:25:34Z pierpa: I said: btw, I don't understand why they do it in this way / (logand sample #x8000)  would have the same effect, methinks
2016-07-10T22:26:23Z rumbler31: pierpa: yes this seems odd, if you've already reconstructed the 16 bit value prior to calling this function, it seems like they are explicitly taking the high bit from the low byte
2016-07-10T22:26:33Z pierpa: perhaps to make it work on 16 bit DSPs?
2016-07-10T22:26:44Z rumbler31: the promotion seems to serve simply that it will be writted back in the high bit of the high byte
2016-07-10T22:27:27Z rumbler31: oh, the example code is a right shift
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2016-07-10T22:28:08Z rumbler31: and it makes even less sense, right shift the sample, but then take the high bit of the high byte
2016-07-10T22:28:51Z rumbler31: if the implementation performs an arithmetic shift (inserts 1's if the number is twos complement and negative) then you'll read a 1 in the high bit
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2016-07-10T22:29:07Z sjl: oh good, (setf subseq) seems to respect fill pointers too
2016-07-10T22:29:10Z sjl: at least in SBCL
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2016-07-10T22:29:29Z pierpa: sjl, yes
2016-07-10T22:30:04Z pierpa: rumbler31, ok got it. sign is used later as a sign to the output byte
2016-07-10T22:30:19Z pierpa: so it comes handy to have it in 8bit byte
2016-07-10T22:30:32Z sjl: thanks
2016-07-10T22:30:56Z rumbler31: yes I realized my confusion
2016-07-10T22:30:57Z pierpa: yw :)
2016-07-10T22:31:06Z rumbler31: #x8000 is the high bit of the high byte
2016-07-10T22:31:15Z rumbler31: the shift is to the right
2016-07-10T22:31:53Z rumbler31: so the result is that the high bit is moved down to #x0080 then stored as a 1 byte value
2016-07-10T22:32:05Z pierpa: yes
2016-07-10T22:32:31Z rumbler31: and it seems that my problem was that a byte value read as negative when treated like a two
2016-07-10T22:32:34Z rumbler31: s complement binary number
2016-07-10T22:32:46Z rumbler31: is not necessarily negative to common lisp
2016-07-10T22:33:21Z rumbler31: (<= sample 0) isn't correct
2016-07-10T22:33:30Z rumbler31: in order to detect negativity.
2016-07-10T22:35:04Z rumbler31: i'm not sure why this wasn't clear to me before.  I seemed to think that negating the value wouldn't work for this reason, because it would simply be stored as a sign and magnitude cl integer value, where further bit manipulations would be ignorant of the sign
2016-07-10T22:35:26Z rumbler31: so if I thought that was the case I have no idea why I would have thought that checking the absolute value would work either
2016-07-10T22:35:53Z pierpa: bit twiddling is tricky
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2016-07-10T22:37:14Z mejja: why lisp sooo slow?
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2016-07-10T22:39:50Z phoe_krk: mejja: wat
2016-07-10T22:40:15Z phoe_krk: Describe your issue better. That question alone doesn't have a sane answer.
2016-07-10T22:40:54Z rumbler31: pierpa: i owe you a beer
2016-07-10T22:41:00Z pierpa: yay!
2016-07-10T22:41:56Z rumbler31: do you happen to have much experience writing code using bordeaux-threads?
2016-07-10T22:44:17Z pierpa: me? never used them. Actually, I just returned to write CL after several years of exile
2016-07-10T22:44:31Z rumbler31: oh ok
2016-07-10T22:44:41Z rumbler31: i've never really dealt with multithreaded code in any language
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2016-07-10T23:24:09Z totimkopf: how would I assign input from (read-line) to a variable?
2016-07-10T23:24:20Z adhoc[] is now known as adhoc[afi]
2016-07-10T23:25:45Z antoszka: totimkopf: CL-USER(1): (defvar *foo* (read-line))
2016-07-10T23:25:45Z antoszka: haha
2016-07-10T23:25:45Z antoszka: *FOO*
2016-07-10T23:25:45Z antoszka: CL-USER(2): *foo*
2016-07-10T23:25:45Z antoszka:                                                                                                                                                       "haha"
2016-07-10T23:25:56Z totimkopf: without using a global
2016-07-10T23:26:03Z antoszka: totimkopf: let
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2016-07-10T23:27:05Z totimkopf: antoszka: i've tried something like: (let ((x (read-line))))
2016-07-10T23:27:34Z totimkopf: but got some warnings and it didn't work as planned
2016-07-10T23:29:37Z antoszka: totimkopf: (let ((foo (read-line))) foo)
2016-07-10T23:29:46Z antoszka: totimkopf: should work as expected
2016-07-10T23:29:53Z antoszka: enter a value and see it returned
2016-07-10T23:30:36Z totimkopf: ahh!
2016-07-10T23:31:10Z totimkopf: antoszka: thanks :)
2016-07-10T23:32:12Z antoszka: np
2016-07-10T23:33:29Z sharkteeth: is there a type of (and) that doesn't stop evaluating arguments even if it encounters nil?
2016-07-10T23:34:34Z antoszka: sharkteeth: try reduce
2016-07-10T23:35:48Z sharkteeth: reduce #'and ?
2016-07-10T23:36:44Z heddwch is now known as [heddwch]
2016-07-10T23:36:59Z [heddwch] is now known as heddwch
2016-07-10T23:37:34Z Bike: do you need side effects or something?
2016-07-10T23:37:53Z sharkteeth: if i understand what you mean correctly, yes
2016-07-10T23:38:04Z antoszka: sharkteeth: and is a macro
2016-07-10T23:38:12Z antoszka: so you can't reduce with #'and
2016-07-10T23:38:30Z sharkteeth: i'll describe the problem a bit more clearly, one moment
2016-07-10T23:40:10Z pillton: clhs every
2016-07-10T23:40:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm
2016-07-10T23:40:23Z sharkteeth: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320155
2016-07-10T23:40:41Z sharkteeth: multi-check is what i'm trying to get ironed out
2016-07-10T23:40:42Z Anselmo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-07-10T23:40:44Z sharkteeth: i'll check out every
2016-07-10T23:41:48Z Bike: well, you can do the same thing you did in check.
2016-07-10T23:42:46Z pillton: Oh no. Another unit test framework!
2016-07-10T23:42:51Z sharkteeth: haha yep
2016-07-10T23:43:03Z sharkteeth: chapter exercise in a book i'm following
2016-07-10T23:43:11Z pillton: Thank heavens for that.
2016-07-10T23:43:18Z Bike: or abstract a bit, (defun and-always (&rest values) (every #'identity values)), and then define check and multi-check in terms of that
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2016-07-10T23:44:13Z sharkteeth: that seems like a better idea than what i'm trying to do.
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2016-07-10T23:44:46Z sharkteeth: pillton don't worry, with some luck i'll be through it shortly
2016-07-10T23:45:09Z sharkteeth: still getting used to macros and backquote notation, very strange
2016-07-10T23:45:41Z sharkteeth: or not intuitive to me yet anyway
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2016-07-10T23:46:37Z pillton: Oh. It is great that you are doing the exercises.
2016-07-10T23:46:46Z Bike: imo it helps to try writing it without backquote
2016-07-10T23:47:05Z Bike: like, `(unless ,i (setf ,result nil)) = (list 'unless i (list 'setf result nil))
2016-07-10T23:47:32Z sharkteeth: write it without backquote so it's easier to transliterate it into backquote or avoid backquote when possible?
2016-07-10T23:47:42Z pillton: sharkteeth: I won't stop people from practising. Fail fast, fail often I say.
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2016-07-10T23:47:49Z Bike: just, to understand what backquote does
2016-07-10T23:47:59Z Bike: though i write like that instead of doing nested backquotes, also
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2016-07-10T23:48:48Z sharkteeth: gotcha, giving it a shot now
2016-07-10T23:49:32Z sharkteeth: pillton i figure you guys get a lot of the same questions over and over again but this is the only place i can go for lisp related questions without spamming stackexchange or quora or whatever's hot now
2016-07-10T23:50:43Z sharkteeth: and i've got the "fail often" part down pretty good already ;)
2016-07-10T23:50:56Z pillton: sharkteeth: I have no problems with questions. I have problems with blog posts advertising another common lisp test framework. :)
2016-07-10T23:51:21Z pillton: sharkteeth: I'll see you at the pub. We can compare scars.
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2016-07-10T23:52:02Z sharkteeth: fair enough
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2016-07-11T00:05:12Z pillton: sharkteeth: What book are the exercises from?
2016-07-11T00:05:30Z sharkteeth: Practical Common Lisp by Peter Seibel
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2016-07-11T00:09:44Z sharkteeth: looks like most/all of it is online on his website as well: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
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2016-07-11T00:13:34Z pillton: Thanks. I wanted to see if it covered an issue with minimal compilation and your check/multi-check macros. It is a bit early in the book to bring it up.
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2016-07-11T00:14:17Z pillton: It is a good book. That was my first lisp book.
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2016-07-11T04:34:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-11T04:45:04Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-07-11T04:45:22Z John[Lisbeth]: beach, I've almost implemented my own lispy interpreter in bash
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2016-07-11T04:47:59Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Congratulations.
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2016-07-11T04:55:48Z John[Lisbeth]: I've got a pretty solid repl that runs emacs smoothly. About 10 lines of bash. Now I am creating the parser that the eval in repl calls.
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2016-07-11T05:21:20Z Chetnik|3: Hi, all
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2016-07-11T05:22:14Z beach: Hello Chetnik|3.
2016-07-11T05:24:55Z beach: Chetnik|3: Are you new here?
2016-07-11T05:25:25Z Chetnik|3: Yes, new to IRC and LISP in general actually.
2016-07-11T05:26:21Z beach: I see.  Welcome, then!
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2016-07-11T05:29:22Z Chetnik|3: Thanks! I'm working through Paul Graham's book right now.  Really great thusfar
2016-07-11T05:29:44Z beach: Which one?  ANSI Common Lisp?
2016-07-11T05:30:27Z Chetnik|3: Yep. I didn't realize he had others. Any other suggestions?
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2016-07-11T05:31:20Z beach: His other book is for more advanced stuff, so that's the one to start with.  But there are also other Common Lisp books for beginners.
2016-07-11T05:31:52Z beach: But that one is fine.  He just has an unusual style that you need to avoid later on.
2016-07-11T05:32:00Z beach: Not a big deal at this point though.
2016-07-11T05:32:45Z Chetnik|3: I was interested because I had heard it was like python.  Which I don't understand at all.  There's nothing in Python like the REPL and LISP seems to be a lot less "batteries included"
2016-07-11T05:33:11Z DaivdGu: yes
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2016-07-11T05:34:56Z beach: Chetnik|3: OK, one thing at a time.  First of all, we quit writing it LISP a few decades ago.  Second, Common Lisp is a standard, so it is nothing included at all, whereas Python is a programming system.  There are several Common Lisp implementations to choose from.  Third, with Quicklisp, you have hundreds of libraries that you can install, so there are plenty of batteries to be found.
2016-07-11T05:41:43Z Chetnik|3: beach:  Great, thanks for pointing those things out, I'll have to read up.
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2016-07-11T05:48:37Z beach: Chetnik|3: Also, before installing your Common Lisp programming environment, you should consult us here, because it is easy to get it wrong, and then it will all have to be done over again.
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2016-07-11T06:43:21Z ZombieChicken: How easy is it to mess up a CL programming enviroment?
2016-07-11T06:43:26Z ZombieChicken: I've never heard that claim
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2016-07-11T06:50:51Z spiaggia: ZombieChicken: It is very easy to mess up a Common Lisp environment.
2016-07-11T06:51:49Z spiaggia: Try (setf (fdefinition 'read) #'read-char) and if you are in SBCL, answer that you want to ignore package locks.  From then on, you can't do anything.
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2016-07-11T06:53:05Z ZombieChicken: hmm, okay
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2016-07-11T06:54:44Z spiaggia: That is by design.  The philosophy of Common Lisp is to allow the programmer to experiment with lots of things.  And it is assumed that the programmer knows what he or she is doing.
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2016-07-11T07:01:29Z pillton: I think there is room for improvement though.
2016-07-11T07:01:58Z spiaggia: How so?
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2016-07-11T07:02:43Z pillton: Having the ability to "revert" (and/or "fork") the global environment would be good.
2016-07-11T07:03:31Z spiaggia: Sure.  SICL first-class global environments will help.
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2016-07-11T20:25:18Z dim: does copy-tree works by default with structure instances as tree elements?
2016-07-11T20:26:15Z dlowe: that seems unlikely?
2016-07-11T20:26:50Z dlowe: If tree is not a cons, it is returned
2016-07-11T20:26:57Z dlowe: thus speaketh the clhs
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2016-07-11T20:28:26Z dim: and I needed it to be written again here for the words to finally make sense to me
2016-07-11T20:28:49Z dim: of course copy-tree is recursive and that's all you need to know to understand how it behaves
2016-07-11T20:28:50Z dim: thx
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2016-07-11T21:54:13Z fourier: is where anything like memset in CL, to set contents of the array to zeros in an efficient way?
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2016-07-11T21:56:48Z Bike: clhs fill
2016-07-11T21:56:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fill.htm
2016-07-11T21:58:54Z fourier: Bike: great thanks
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2016-07-12T03:13:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-12T03:14:27Z burla: dear beach!
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2016-07-12T05:43:00Z papachan: morning
2016-07-12T05:43:11Z beach: Hello papachan.
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2016-07-12T08:27:32Z novoid: Emacs: why do I get "Wrong type argument: number-or-marker-p, nil" with "(time-subtract (parse-time-string "12:24") (parse-time-string "11:45"))"?
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2016-07-12T08:33:22Z Bike: you might want to try #emacs. but it seems like parse-time-string returns values, so maybe you need to encode-time the result.
2016-07-12T08:34:28Z novoid: Bike: (setq (time-subtract ...)) returns the same error. I'll try emacs, thanks.
2016-07-12T08:34:31Z edgar-rft: novoid: because time-sustract expects two float-time values, not two (SEC MIN HOUR DAY MON YEAR DOW DST TZ) lists.
2016-07-12T08:34:45Z Bike: what does setq have to do with it
2016-07-12T08:34:58Z novoid: edgar-rft: There are two, aren't they?
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2016-07-12T08:35:15Z edgar-rft: but not two float-times
2016-07-12T08:35:20Z Bike: no, what me and edgar are saying is that parse-time-string does not return a value of the kind that time-subtract wants.
2016-07-12T08:35:27Z novoid: Bike: my naïve mind: setq is able to assign list of values
2016-07-12T08:35:43Z Bike: what does it mean to "assign list of values"?
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2016-07-12T08:36:02Z novoid: Bike: ah, I thought there is only one representation for time.
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2016-07-12T08:37:07Z Bike: time's probably too complicated for one, alas
2016-07-12T08:37:48Z novoid: ... and I am an Elisp n00b :-(
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2016-07-12T08:41:13Z edgar-rft: novoid: gimme a few minutes and I'll try to find a working version, and in case of doubt I'm on #emacs, too. On #lisp you find Common Lisp experts, on #emacs you find Emacs lisp folks.
2016-07-12T08:42:51Z novoid: edgar-rft: I guess I've found a hint: I have to use (encode-time (parse-time-string ...)) but I got no working version yet.
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2016-07-12T08:43:13Z novoid: edgar-rft: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2901317/dates-and-times-in-emacs-lisp relates to it
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2016-07-12T08:54:49Z edgar-rft: I still have no working solution, but the various time and date formets used by Emacs are documented in thee Sections "Time of Day", "Time Conversion", and "Time Parsing" here: <https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/System-Interface.html#System-Interface>
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2016-07-12T09:05:39Z therik: hello
2016-07-12T09:06:17Z therik: ; file: /home/therik/.swank.lisp caught WARNING: ;   undefined variable: SWANK:*GLOBALLY-REDIRECT-IO*
2016-07-12T09:06:18Z therik: eh?
2016-07-12T09:06:49Z therik: am I missing something?
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2016-07-12T09:10:02Z Bike: version trouble?
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2016-07-12T10:43:33Z loke`: Hello Lisp!
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2016-07-12T10:51:37Z pillton: G'day loke.
2016-07-12T10:52:01Z loke`: Hello pillton
2016-07-12T10:52:05Z loke` is in Paris right now.
2016-07-12T10:52:21Z pillton: loke`: No need to rub it in.
2016-07-12T10:53:07Z loke`: pillton: I'd rather be hoe to be honest, but I'll still enjoy what I get :-)
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2016-07-12T12:23:58Z John[Lisbeth]: Haskell has a rigid type system. Lisp could simulate the rigid type system of haskell, and within that simulation there would be rigid types, but outside of that simulation, the types would not be rigid. Isn't that correct?
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2016-07-12T12:31:09Z peey: John[Lisbeth]: that is correct. You'll do that by not allowing direct manipulation to the built-in types, but through special functions which when called will check for this rigidity. You can also not use the :cl package so user of your package won't have access cl to the language and just the language you provide, with a rigid type system
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2016-07-12T12:33:04Z Zhivago: What is it by 'rigid type' that you mean?
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2016-07-12T12:35:44Z John[Lisbeth]: Well you can make certain optomizations for example if you make assumptions about the type system.
2016-07-12T12:35:54Z John[Lisbeth]: Which have tradeoffs.
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2016-07-12T12:37:17Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm also wondering about making finite state machines in lisp, which is an unrelated question to the previous one.
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2016-07-12T12:39:16Z John[Lisbeth]: Namely I'm hoping someone has already implemented some finite state machine stuff.
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2016-07-12T12:40:13Z loke`: John[Lisbeth]: You do know what an FSM is, right? Implementing it is so trivial that a library is utterly pointless.
2016-07-12T12:40:29Z loke`: There is also the CASE macro in Lisp. That's all you need.
2016-07-12T12:41:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I suppose a case macro is all I need, but I didn't know if there was something to manage it. That's fine, that answers my question.
2016-07-12T12:41:15Z Kooda: Case and lambda :Þ
2016-07-12T12:41:54Z Kooda: In Scheme we have irregex, which compiles a regex to a state machine, maybe there’s something similar in CL.
2016-07-12T12:44:24Z John[Lisbeth]: scheme would be sort of going the opposite direction of what I want.
2016-07-12T12:44:41Z Kooda: Why so?
2016-07-12T12:45:03Z John[Lisbeth]: What I want is to really study closely the typing systems of haskell and scheme and make my own sort of sandboxed typing system in lisp, and then implement a really efficient finite state machine logic in that. The typing system would be optomized for finite state machines and vectors
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2016-07-12T12:45:35Z John[Lisbeth]: When I say finite state machine, I mean a loop with case statements inside based on ints in a vector
2016-07-12T12:45:46Z John[Lisbeth]: so it's not technically finite, but uses the same sort of thinking
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2016-07-12T12:48:54Z loke`: John[Lisbeth]: May I suggest you first learn Haskell then?
2016-07-12T12:50:45Z John[Lisbeth]: I have already learned the basics of haskell. I spent about a year and a half pouring over learn you a haskell. Ultimately I found lisp was the solution I needed and not haskell.
2016-07-12T12:51:21Z John[Lisbeth]: I want the type system that lisp has; however, within the lisp typing system I want to make my own typing system for certain problem domains
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2016-07-12T12:53:25Z wywedanse: ei
2016-07-12T12:53:31Z wywedanse: is there a svg
2016-07-12T12:53:33Z wywedanse: ?
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2016-07-12T12:58:43Z wywedanse: is there a terminal coded in lisp?
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2016-07-12T13:01:49Z John[Lisbeth]: emacs is what you are looking for
2016-07-12T13:02:24Z therik: hm, lparallel doesn't pass multiple values to receive-result...
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2016-07-12T13:03:20Z wywedanse: can I run vim in emacs?
2016-07-12T13:03:45Z John[Lisbeth]: yes, also there is emacs vi layer or emacs evil mode for short
2016-07-12T13:04:38Z wywedanse: hom much compatible is it?
2016-07-12T13:04:52Z wywedanse: 100%, 60% ...
2016-07-12T13:04:55Z John[Lisbeth]: Well it doesn't run emacs perfectly but if you get good at emacs apparently it can run it pretty well.
2016-07-12T13:05:10Z John[Lisbeth]: But emacs evil mode takes it a step further and combines the goodness of vim with the goodness of lisp.
2016-07-12T13:05:27Z John[Lisbeth]: You gotta trust me that if you want to do lispy stuff in the shell, emacs is the best thing for you.
2016-07-12T13:05:40Z John[Lisbeth]: You should /join #emacs and ask them about it.
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2016-07-12T13:06:11Z moore33: John[Lisbeth]: I would be ready to use eshell all the time, but as far as I know it doesn't do input redirection :/
2016-07-12T13:06:27Z John[Lisbeth]: you can m-x eshell or m-x ansi-term for better shell
2016-07-12T13:06:32Z jdz: i've heard viper mode (or another one of them vi emeulation modes) is actually better than vim itself
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2016-07-12T13:07:09Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: i've always found terminal support lacking in emacs
2016-07-12T13:07:17Z jdz: there's always something that does not work
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2016-07-12T13:08:21Z wywedanse: so plenty of options
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2016-07-12T13:13:25Z John[Lisbeth]: yeah so basically jdz is right, wywedanse. Arguably the best terminal inside of emacs is ansi-term, and it doesn't have really rock solid terminal emmulation like something like tmux does, but it's so good that it works for most things really well, and one day we hope to have a version that will do full terminal emulation like tmux
2016-07-12T13:13:47Z John[Lisbeth]: but basically you can do almost all of your programming work from within emacs without ever leaving it, and I almost never leave emacs when I am doing anything linux related.
2016-07-12T13:14:02Z John[Lisbeth]: for everything else I just use chrome, and in fact I am running emacs inside of a tab in chrome on a chromebook
2016-07-12T13:14:20Z John[Lisbeth]: So learning emacs is a really powerful thing to do as a programmer which has alot of advantages.
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2016-07-12T13:46:22Z wywedanse: what about is there a simple lisp terminal?
2016-07-12T13:46:53Z loke`: wywedanse: Pretty much all of use use Emacs.
2016-07-12T13:47:50Z wywedanse: that's fine, but I wanted for sakes of demo of lisp code. I n00b, I am sure emacs code is huge.
2016-07-12T13:48:03Z jdz: emacs + slime, that is
2016-07-12T13:48:08Z jdz: and a common lisp implementation
2016-07-12T13:48:16Z wywedanse: something to this effect --> https://github.com/antirez/kilo
2016-07-12T13:48:22Z jdz: which is usually SBCL or CCL
2016-07-12T13:48:33Z wywedanse: I was curious how the code of a terminal looked like
2016-07-12T13:50:08Z jdz: wywedanse: what you linked looks like an editor, not a "terminal"
2016-07-12T13:50:43Z jdz: one editor written in CL is https://common-lisp.net/project/phemlock/
2016-07-12T13:51:02Z jdz: then there's McCLIM
2016-07-12T13:51:48Z jdz: there was one interesting editor using structured document concepts, i don't recall its name, though
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2016-07-12T13:58:44Z jdz: oh, i think https://github.com/projectured/projectured is the one i was thinking of
2016-07-12T13:59:23Z jdz: there are links to screencasts on youtube
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2016-07-12T14:02:49Z wywedanse: what about a simple terminal?
2016-07-12T14:03:33Z wywedanse: I've got an idea.
2016-07-12T14:05:09Z Xach: wywedanse: simple terminal is a bit of an oxymoron
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2016-07-12T14:05:56Z Xach: It's not that it's impossible or anything, but there are a lot of details to get right.
2016-07-12T14:06:15Z jdz: only if one wants to be compatible with "standard" terminals
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2016-07-12T14:06:25Z drdo: Which is surprising, the concept of a terminal is very simple
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2016-07-12T14:06:54Z Xach: drdo: what is the concept of a terminal?
2016-07-12T14:07:51Z wywedanse: so no lisp terminal out there, even as demo?
2016-07-12T14:07:52Z drdo: Xach: Well, I suppose the main idea is something that can display characters and accept character input
2016-07-12T14:08:24Z Xach: wywedanse: there is a clim one that springs to mind.
2016-07-12T14:08:44Z jdz: drdo: would WRITE-STRING and READ-STRING satisfy the constraints?
2016-07-12T14:08:45Z Xach: drdo: is scrolling included? like, you get to the end of a line, and everything moves up? and cursor motion?
2016-07-12T14:09:41Z drdo: Xach: Yes, things start getting complicated once one starts piling on features. It was never my point to refute that
2016-07-12T14:10:15Z Xach: drdo: Just wondering what counts for making a conceptual bare-bones terminal
2016-07-12T14:10:31Z Xach: makes me think about typewriters as a metaphor
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2016-07-12T14:12:25Z Xach: that device has cheap scrolling hardware
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2016-07-12T14:12:44Z drdo: Xach: I don't have any strong opinions on that
2016-07-12T14:12:55Z drdo: (scrolling being a primitive feature)
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2016-07-12T14:31:15Z mordocai: Hey, what was the general lisp family IRC chat channel again?
2016-07-12T14:31:28Z jackdaniel: ##lisp
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2016-07-12T14:55:27Z John[Lisbeth]: what is wrong with this: (loop while (eq 4 4) do 2) ?
2016-07-12T14:56:04Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: EQ is not a good comparator for numbers.
2016-07-12T14:56:42Z John[Lisbeth]: (loop while (equal 4 4) do 2) doesn't work either
2016-07-12T14:57:01Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: what do you mean by "work"?
2016-07-12T14:57:16Z John[Lisbeth]: I want it to be the same as 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2....
2016-07-12T14:57:40Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: Oh, now that I've tried it, I see the issue. I didn't realize DO worked like that.
2016-07-12T14:57:44Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: what is "2 2 2 2 2 2"?
2016-07-12T14:58:11Z John[Lisbeth]: well type * 2 2 into slime.
2016-07-12T14:58:23Z John[Lisbeth]: it just evaluates 2, then accepts the next command, 2, and evaluates that
2016-07-12T14:58:54Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: I'm afraid I still don't understand.
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2016-07-12T15:00:33Z jdz: CCL complains about that loop
2016-07-12T15:00:38Z ggole: Evaluating 2 isn't really going to do much for you.
2016-07-12T15:00:52Z ggole: Do you want it to print 2 or something like that?
2016-07-12T15:00:57Z jdz: and so does SBCL
2016-07-12T15:01:35Z John[Lisbeth]: when I type 2 2 into sbcl I get 2 newline * newline 2 newline *
2016-07-12T15:01:50Z John[Lisbeth]: Obviously 2 doesn't do math but I am just trying to get loop working in the first place
2016-07-12T15:02:03Z jdz: what should 2 do?
2016-07-12T15:02:08Z H4ns: John[Lisbeth]: loop works fine, but you'll need to understand it
2016-07-12T15:02:11Z John[Lisbeth]: it should evaluate to the atom 2
2016-07-12T15:02:24Z jdz: does it not?
2016-07-12T15:02:34Z ggole: (loop for i below 10 do (progn 2)), maybe
2016-07-12T15:02:37Z Xach: No, DO requires a "compound form", which is defined
2016-07-12T15:02:44Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't want to do a for loop I want to do while loop
2016-07-12T15:02:46Z H4ns: John[Lisbeth]: DO evaluates an expression for effect, not for return value
2016-07-12T15:02:47Z Xach: as: a non-empty list which is a form: a special form, a lambda form, a macro form, or a function form.
2016-07-12T15:03:07Z Xach: so (loop ... do 42) will not work. 42 is not a compound form.
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2016-07-12T15:03:29Z jdz: both CCL and SBCL actually complain with such an error
2016-07-12T15:03:33Z John[Lisbeth]: I just need a syntax that will let me loop through things
2016-07-12T15:03:36Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: what CL implementation are you using?
2016-07-12T15:03:50Z jdz: loop is fine for that
2016-07-12T15:03:52Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't know. I have sbcl and I installed slime from mepla
2016-07-12T15:04:01Z John[Lisbeth]: loop certainly is fine for that but I don't know how to use it
2016-07-12T15:04:03Z jdz: (loop for x in '(1 2 3) collect (* x 2))
2016-07-12T15:04:04Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: what do you want to be the return value of the loop form?
2016-07-12T15:04:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I want it to print 2 forever and ever and ever
2016-07-12T15:04:25Z jdz: why don't you print 2, then?
2016-07-12T15:04:33Z John[Lisbeth]: Because I want to loop print 2
2016-07-12T15:04:42Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: (loop do (print 2)) will do that.
2016-07-12T15:04:43Z jdz: yes, why don't you print 2 in a loop, then?
2016-07-12T15:05:19Z rme: Or even (loop (print 2)), for that matter.
2016-07-12T15:05:48Z John[Lisbeth]: well (loop do (print 2)) sort of solves my problem for now
2016-07-12T15:05:52Z Xach: dang. that made emacs give up on trying to C-c C-c
2016-07-12T15:05:53Z jdz: sort of?
2016-07-12T15:05:58Z Xach: although C-c M-o still worked.
2016-07-12T15:06:44Z moore33: This reminds me of writing infinite loops in BASIC in the 5th grade...
2016-07-12T15:07:04Z jdz: (tagbody 10 (print 2) 20 (go 10))
2016-07-12T15:07:28Z John[Lisbeth]: jdz: thanks I might steal that
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2016-07-12T15:08:51Z jdz: that's what (loop (print 2)) expands into...
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2016-07-12T15:12:35Z John[Lisbeth]: jdz even more interesting
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2016-07-12T15:13:08Z jdz: why?
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2016-07-12T15:13:20Z jdz: or rather -- what's so interesting about it?
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2016-07-12T15:13:43Z John[Lisbeth]: It's just I never got that far down in a language before
2016-07-12T15:14:03Z jdz: you mean you've never written a working program?
2016-07-12T15:14:22Z John[Lisbeth]: well no that's not what I'm saying. What i'm saying is I've never messed with goto before.
2016-07-12T15:14:29Z John[Lisbeth]: I never worked with basic.
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2016-07-12T15:15:25Z jdz: most "modern" languages don't have goto, that's true
2016-07-12T15:15:41Z jdz: CL is a postmodern programming language
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2016-07-12T15:16:29Z John[Lisbeth]: Is there a way to take (foo) and see what (foo) evaluates to directly?
2016-07-12T15:16:54Z dlowe: ... just evaluate it?
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2016-07-12T15:17:05Z dlowe: or do you mean macroexpand?
2016-07-12T15:17:15Z dlowe: (macroexpand '(foo))
2016-07-12T15:17:35Z moore33: (disassemble 'foo)
2016-07-12T15:17:50Z jdz: or C-c M-m in emacs
2016-07-12T15:18:07Z jdz: emacs/slime
2016-07-12T15:18:19Z jdz: GNU/emacs/slime
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2016-07-12T15:25:02Z Guthur`: John[Lisbeth]: may I recommend going through something like Practical Common Lisp http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2016-07-12T15:25:36Z Guthur`: it'll be the path of least resistance when it comes to learning CL
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2016-07-12T15:30:56Z Grue``: seems like a lot of people get confused by REPL actually printing the result, though it's hard to understand why, it's even in the name
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2016-07-12T15:35:31Z shaftoe: read eval postulate lisp
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2016-07-12T20:32:11Z ZombieChicken: Is it normal to find it a little difficult to figure out what functions one needs when going through the hyperspec? There seem to be a lot of similar-but-different functions for everything...
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2016-07-12T20:34:32Z Xach: ZombieChicken: it can help to read it front to back without any particular aim, and then when you need it, maybe your memory will be tickled enough to remember which does what you need.
2016-07-12T20:34:54Z Xach: ZombieChicken: after a while, you internalize most of the functions, though it's possible to discover new ones after many years of use
2016-07-12T20:35:50Z ZombieChicken: It all seems fairly straight forward naming wise, it's just a lot to take in, especially for one who hasn't done much mental work in a few years
2016-07-12T20:36:21Z ZombieChicken: I think I just need to strap everything together and get SLIMV working and try things out
2016-07-12T20:38:21Z Xach: ZombieChicken: it can help to ask, too. we are your CL concierges.
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2016-07-12T20:39:00Z ZombieChicken: Xach: I really need to trip over myself at this point some before giving up. If I'm entirely lost, I'll ask
2016-07-12T20:39:12Z Xach: ZombieChicken: well, here's an analogy i like
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2016-07-12T20:39:35Z Xach: ZombieChicken: if you start going off the clear path, you may be tempted to ask experts for a chainsaw to cut down all the crazy trees that seem to be in the way
2016-07-12T20:39:44Z Xach: ZombieChicken: but an expert can help you stay on the clear path, or guide you back to it
2016-07-12T20:40:30Z ZombieChicken: Xach: Yeah, but sometimes it's good to bang your head into a tree here or there, or the occasional low-hanging limb to remind you to pay attention to what you're doing instead of having to ask someone to always point the path
2016-07-12T20:40:44Z Xach: truly it is a delicate balance
2016-07-12T20:40:49Z ZombieChicken: aye
2016-07-12T20:41:30Z Grue`: i think it's pretty normal to not know every standard Common Lisp function. however being able to find them in Hyperspec is a skill
2016-07-12T20:41:42Z ZombieChicken: Right now I just need to remember I'm not writing C and testing out random ideas is far, far easier than the patch-compile-test-repatch cycle I had to deal with with C
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2016-07-12T20:42:01Z Xach: yes, interaction is good
2016-07-12T20:42:08Z ZombieChicken: Grue`: Fortunatly, verbose naming conventions helps with that a lot
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2016-07-12T20:43:22Z Xach: "Programming with the old interactive languages is less like building something from a plan, and more like teaching things to an eager assistant."
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2016-07-12T20:43:41Z Xach: a quote from mikel evins that i like, on https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/4oo1cp/common_lisp_for_clojure_programmer/d4eec68
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2016-07-12T22:02:08Z p_l: Xach: following to the SK8 discussion is also very enlightening
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2016-07-12T22:08:00Z rel: Has anyone here seen the OCW video lectures on lisp?
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2016-07-12T22:10:22Z p_l: 6.001?
2016-07-12T22:10:50Z rel: yeah
2016-07-12T22:12:48Z p_l: going to, haven't had time yet
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2016-07-12T22:13:44Z rel: Just wondered if it's worth investing that precious time
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2016-07-12T22:14:10Z rel: //////
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2016-07-12T22:28:05Z jsgrant: mordocai: Tentatively excited for the first "Arch Lisp" meetup, I just saw on my feed. Have a family thing I may have to tend to beforehand or possibly in-place of ... but, if I can, I will -- be there. :^)
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2016-07-12T22:36:59Z mordocai: jsgrant: excellent :). Nothing special talk wise but i'm going to see if I can record it
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2016-07-12T22:38:48Z jsgrant: mordocai: ++ That'd be very nice/neat. We need a lot more discoverable Lisp content floating around the ether of the net.
2016-07-12T22:45:22Z jsgrant: Brb.
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2016-07-12T22:46:08Z ZombieChicken: Hrm. Apparently SWANK doesn't like being used for a SBCL "shell script". It craps itself on the hashbang at the start of the file
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2016-07-12T22:47:56Z brfennpo`: :-( yeah, ran into that here as well. I just make the shell scripts one-liners to load the real ones now.
2016-07-12T22:48:13Z ZombieChicken: Just a shell wrapper? Makes sense
2016-07-12T22:48:45Z brfennpo`: for bonus points the shell script method doesn't (seem to) load FASL but (load …) will.
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2016-07-12T22:49:02Z ZombieChicken: FASL?
2016-07-12T22:50:08Z brfennpo`: if you (compile-file … ) you get a FASt Load file that starts up a bit quicker
2016-07-12T22:50:15Z ZombieChicken: meh
2016-07-12T22:50:23Z ZombieChicken: This is just a short script for KSP
2016-07-12T22:50:31Z ZombieChicken: Hardly time consuming in any regard
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2016-07-12T22:51:34Z porky11: hi
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2016-07-12T22:52:21Z porky11: is there some lib for apl-like (or J-like) syntax for lisp?
2016-07-12T22:52:33Z pillton: You can make scripts by replacing the #! with: ":" ; exec sbcl --no-userinit --load "$0"
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2016-07-12T22:54:44Z pillton: The above works for any lisp. SBCL has special support. See http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Shebang-Scripts
2016-07-12T22:55:33Z rme: porky11: I've never heard of anything like that.  I've seen people fiddle around so that you can write "λ" instead of "lambda", but that's about it.  In CL, you tend to see long-names-like-this.
2016-07-12T22:55:55Z ZombieChicken: pillton: ty for the link
2016-07-12T22:56:17Z ZombieChicken: and yet another site that doesn't work for me. I think my proxy chain is broken somewhere...
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2016-07-12T22:56:42Z pillton: ZombieChicken: I had problems getting to sbcl.org.
2016-07-12T22:57:09Z brfennpo`: porky11: if you mean like function[param1;param2] it's called M-expressions and quite unpopular, but see eg http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/m-expression.lisp
2016-07-12T22:57:11Z ZombieChicken: okay, it seems like it isn't my proxy chain then
2016-07-12T22:57:37Z ZombieChicken: I had similar problems with vim.org, so that's interesting
2016-07-12T22:59:07Z ZombieChicken: Just looking for input on style here. How does this look so far? http://dpaste.com/1TDHWED
2016-07-12T23:00:13Z pillton: ZombieChicken: http://www.cliki.net/coding%20convention
2016-07-12T23:01:14Z porky11: brfennpo`: no, m-expressions are not similar to apl
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2016-07-12T23:06:29Z brfennpo`: similar to Jscript, not APL, yes
2016-07-12T23:09:01Z p_l: that said, someone here once implemented bit of APL in reader macros...
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2016-07-12T23:17:17Z Bike: oh, yeah, i remember that https://github.com/stassats/closer-apl it was a joke, of course
2016-07-12T23:17:32Z ZombieChicken: APL?
2016-07-12T23:17:50Z Bike: a programming language
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2016-07-12T23:20:06Z sjl: is there a nice way in backquote to say "insert this thing if it's non-nil, otherwise don't splice in anything at all"?
2016-07-12T23:20:27Z Bike: ,@(if thing (list thing) nil)
2016-07-12T23:20:31Z Bike: i mean, for some value of "nice"
2016-07-12T23:20:51Z sjl: yeah, I was hoping for nicer, heh
2016-07-12T23:21:21Z Bike: you could make that a function and do ,@(listify thing)
2016-07-12T23:21:49Z ZombieChicken: I love how that isn't considered nice here. Seems fairly simple to me, at least
2016-07-12T23:22:04Z sjl: I think (when thing (list thing)) will be okay for what I need it for
2016-07-12T23:23:07Z sjl: it's annoying in this case because thing itself is a list... lots of parens here
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2016-07-12T23:28:14Z ZombieChicken: Stupid question; how do I read a docstring for a function from within the REPL?
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2016-07-12T23:29:16Z pillton: clhs describe
2016-07-12T23:29:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_descri.htm
2016-07-12T23:29:21Z pillton: clhs documentation
2016-07-12T23:29:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2016-07-12T23:30:09Z porky11: you could also (defun listnil (&rest elements) …) then you just will need parens once sjl
2016-07-12T23:30:53Z sjl: porky11: ah that's an easy way to do the wrapping, yeah
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2016-07-12T23:32:58Z sjl: good lord... what have I done https://i.imgur.com/1iX8eaW.png
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2016-07-12T23:33:34Z porky11: Bike, closer-apl isn't what i want, just some similar kind of binary operators, also like j, but not these symbols ^^
2016-07-12T23:33:58Z Bike: the no, nobody has done that. have you considered just using J
2016-07-12T23:35:59Z porky11: no, i just want to try some other but still simple syntax for lisp
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2016-07-12T23:36:23Z jsgrant: Woops, thought I had autojoin on. :^P
2016-07-12T23:36:47Z ZombieChicken: Hrm. Both (documentation $FUNC) and (describe $FUNC) provide me pretty much nothing other than "The variable $VAR is unbound.". These are for functions I've defined in this file, so I know the docstring is there
2016-07-12T23:37:20Z porky11: good night all
2016-07-12T23:37:25Z ZombieChicken: Night
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2016-07-12T23:38:08Z rme: (documentation 'pairlis 'function)
2016-07-12T23:38:18Z jsgrant: mordocai: Either way, real excited though; Only was able to go to one to the Racket-STL meetups (first I think) and there was on like maybe ... 5 to 7?
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2016-07-12T23:42:42Z sjl: ZombieChicken: documentation takes a symbol, so you'll need to quote it
2016-07-12T23:43:55Z ZombieChicken: I noticed that (found a post about someone asking questions on making docstrings pretty when multiline) and am trying to duplicate their line, but still getting nothing. Just can't figure out the type now it seems
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2016-07-12T23:49:40Z ZombieChicken: found it!
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2016-07-13T00:01:51Z Tuvoi: Pssssst. Anyone know a resource that explains exactly how car and cdr navigate nested lists, per recursion?
2016-07-13T00:02:16Z Tuvoi: Dialect is scheme, if that's relevant
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2016-07-13T00:03:38Z oGMo: Tuvoi: this channel is common lisp, but i can't imagine it'd be different, and "navigate nested lists" is not something they really do
2016-07-13T00:04:02Z oGMo: they pick the car or cdr values of a cons cell, any further navigation is up to you
2016-07-13T00:05:09Z oGMo: "how conses and lists work" is lisp 101, so you should probably read on that
2016-07-13T00:05:16Z Tuvoi: Ah, well. I'm reading a book: "The Little Schemer." I know that car will navigate "down" each recursion, but not the details of cdr.
2016-07-13T00:05:48Z oGMo: not unless scheme works in some incomprehensibly different way
2016-07-13T00:06:07Z oGMo: that is not what car does
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2016-07-13T00:07:26Z Tuvoi: For example ((alpha beta) one two). Car would select the S-Expression of (alpha beta) first, and the atom alpha on a second recursion.
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2016-07-13T00:08:28Z oGMo: s-expressions are something you type, not something that is data
2016-07-13T00:08:40Z pierpa: the little schemer explanation of how this works should be good enough
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2016-07-13T00:09:28Z pierpa: maybe you should just read a little more of it
2016-07-13T00:09:32Z oGMo: that list is '((alpha . (beta . nil)) . (one . (two . nil))) written out fully
2016-07-13T00:09:32Z Tuvoi: Oh, right. Lists are data, s-expressions are syntax.
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2016-07-13T00:09:53Z oGMo: CAR gives you the "left" cell, CDR gives you the "right" cell
2016-07-13T00:10:38Z oGMo: (and the car/cdr of NIL are also NIL, at least in CL)
2016-07-13T00:11:34Z oGMo: it's sortof important not to be confused about that, because if you think it's something more complicated you'll eventually wonder why it's not more magical
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2016-07-13T00:12:15Z Tuvoi: Okies. That's close to what I thought. The point of curiosity, though: (((needlessly deep atoms))shallow). Would two nils be encountered between atoms and shallow? Or only one? I'm not sure if it escapes all those nested lists, or one at a time.
2016-07-13T00:12:40Z oGMo: there is no "between"
2016-07-13T00:13:35Z oGMo: (needlessly . (deep . (atoms . nil))) .. understand the NIL is at the end of a chain of conses
2016-07-13T00:14:11Z oGMo: _don't_ conceptualize there's something "hiding between parens" .. in fact, forget about parens as soon as possible :P
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2016-07-13T00:15:00Z oGMo: parens don't exist in lisp
2016-07-13T00:15:39Z Tuvoi: Humm. So CDR would navigate to the next highest atom. Only time a list of a list could be returned is with car.(?)
2016-07-13T00:16:00Z Tuvoi: It's possible scheme works differently, if that's not the case in clisp
2016-07-13T00:16:09Z Bike: "highest"?
2016-07-13T00:16:20Z Bike: there's no way little schemer is using terminology like that.
2016-07-13T00:16:26Z oGMo: serious misconceptions here heh
2016-07-13T00:16:33Z Bike: a cons has two things in it, the car and the cdr. that is all there is to it.
2016-07-13T00:16:40Z Tuvoi: Nah, I made that up. I don't know how else to describe how deeply something is nested.
2016-07-13T00:16:45Z oGMo: yeah if there's a book that says these things, stop reading it
2016-07-13T00:16:46Z Bike: (alpha . beta) - alpha is the car, beta is the cdr.
2016-07-13T00:16:55Z oGMo: ^
2016-07-13T00:17:36Z Zhivago: I suggest instead of cons to talk about lists and first and rest.
2016-07-13T00:17:46Z brfennpo`: http://people.csail.mit.edu/devadas/6.001/rec5.pdf — the infamously helpful SICP “Cons Boxes” slides
2016-07-13T00:17:57Z Zhivago: If you're using cons to produce non-list structures, then car/cdr may make sense -- otherwise I'd avoid them.
2016-07-13T00:18:10Z oGMo: brfennpo`: yes that's a good one
2016-07-13T00:18:14Z Bike: this is learning how lists are made of conses, so
2016-07-13T00:19:03Z Zhivago: Instead, I would talk about a list being made of a first element and the rest of the list.
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2016-07-13T00:19:21Z Zhivago: Understanding the recursive definition of list usually makes it easier.
2016-07-13T00:19:53Z Zhivago: (and you can't quite do that with CONS)
2016-07-13T00:20:46Z Tuvoi: I'm likely not explaining it properly. Here's a screen of the book, it's quite old. ('94 or '98?) http://puu.sh/pZG6z/90e26d6511.png
2016-07-13T00:21:20Z Bike: okay, well, it doesn't mean that car is "down" and cdr is "up". it means that either one is "down" from the cons.
2016-07-13T00:21:31Z Tuvoi: Second to last line after 'else' is called recursively to retrieve atoms from retrieve lists
2016-07-13T00:21:38Z BRFennPocock: haha :-) car/cdr are kinda 60s tech so '94 is really quite new :-)
2016-07-13T00:22:30Z Tuvoi: Ah, yes. It can go "down" but does not necessarily do so, simply depends on what's next, is the impression I had.
2016-07-13T00:23:37Z Tuvoi: I'm afraid I may have rubber-ducked you all, I'm starting to understand it on my own. Whoops...
2016-07-13T00:23:39Z Zhivago: Generally 'car' and 'cdr' are both down, in that they move deeper in the tree structure.
2016-07-13T00:23:59Z Zhivago: If you draw the list out as a binary tree it should make that clearer.
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2016-07-13T00:51:31Z Tuvoi: brfennpo`: Got around to reading that. It explicitly answers the question I had, thank you very much :>
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2016-07-13T01:12:28Z muyinliu: hi guys, http://www.sbcl.org/  now can NOT be access, what happen?
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2016-07-13T01:16:42Z jsgrant: muyinliu: Have you tried in #sbcl channel? Not sure who maintains/runs that domain.
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2016-07-13T01:18:21Z muyinliu: jsgrant: OK
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2016-07-13T03:03:02Z pmc: In this call why does z get bound to (d e)? (structuring-bind (w (x y) . z) '(a (b c) d e) z)
2016-07-13T03:03:10Z pmc: Why not z == d?
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2016-07-13T03:05:57Z Zhivago: Because of the .
2016-07-13T03:06:19Z Zhivago: You're binding the tail of the list, not the elements
2016-07-13T03:08:05Z pmc: ok, thanks!
2016-07-13T03:08:24Z pierpa: clhs locally
2016-07-13T03:08:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_locall.htm
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2016-07-13T03:11:23Z pmc: What does the test-not keyword do when you use it on a sequence?
2016-07-13T03:12:58Z pierpa: it's like test but the result of the argument function is negated
2016-07-13T03:13:08Z pmc: plerpa, cool thanks!
2016-07-13T03:13:19Z pierpa: yw
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2016-07-13T03:17:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-13T03:20:08Z jsgrant: beach: o/
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2016-07-13T03:40:04Z Fare: beach: bonjour!
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2016-07-13T03:49:19Z fugue: Howdy! Stuck a bit, I have an assoc list '(A (W X Y Z)) and I have a list of letters '(R G B). I need to come up with every possible combination for the assoc list, using R G B
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2016-07-13T03:49:40Z fugue: (R (R R R R)), (R (R R R G)) and so on
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2016-07-13T03:49:57Z beach: fugue: What do you mean by an "assoc list"?
2016-07-13T03:50:08Z fugue: association list
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2016-07-13T03:50:26Z beach: fugue: In what way are your lists association lists?
2016-07-13T03:50:41Z fugue: It's of the form '( (A (W X Y Z)) (B (Z X C V)) )
2016-07-13T03:51:01Z fugue: In that case, W X Y Z share something in common with A
2016-07-13T03:51:15Z fugue: Z X C V has something in common with B
2016-07-13T03:51:31Z fugue: this is a map-coloring problem, which you may have guessed already
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2016-07-13T03:51:49Z beach: Me?  I am barely awake.
2016-07-13T03:51:56Z fugue: That makes two of us
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2016-07-13T03:53:10Z beach: You are saying (R (R R R R)) is somehow similar to (A (W X Y Z)) by I don't see how you link the first R with the A.
2016-07-13T03:53:55Z fugue: Well, the algorithm we are to use, firstly creates *all* color combinations.
2016-07-13T03:54:07Z fugue: Then we'll go through and test if each of them work
2016-07-13T03:55:13Z fugue: So in my case, I have 2 countries, A and B and 3 colors R G B, I should get 3^2 combinations
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2016-07-13T03:55:32Z beach: Oh, now we are getting somewhere.  A and B are countries.
2016-07-13T03:55:40Z fugue: R R, R G, R B, G R, G G, G B, B R, B G, B B
2016-07-13T03:55:57Z beach: Finally, you are making some sense.
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2016-07-13T03:56:06Z beach: Are W X etc also countries?
2016-07-13T03:56:13Z fugue: Yeah
2016-07-13T03:56:22Z beach: And is "something in common" the neighbor?
2016-07-13T03:56:34Z fugue: Yeah, bordering country
2016-07-13T03:56:36Z beach: You could have said that to start with.  It would have helped.
2016-07-13T03:56:56Z fugue: You are right, I'm awful :/
2016-07-13T03:57:06Z fugue: 2 midterms in 2 days...
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2016-07-13T03:57:24Z beach: So (R (R R R R)) is not a good solution, since the country and its neighbors all have the same color, right?
2016-07-13T03:57:46Z fugue: Yeah, I dont have to worry about the solution right now, I just have to generate all possible comibinations
2016-07-13T03:58:08Z fugue: That will be the next part
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2016-07-13T04:00:53Z beach: So can your problem be described this way: You have a number N (indicating the number of neighbors of some country + 1) and a list of M colors, and you want to create all M^N combinations of the colors.
2016-07-13T04:01:37Z fugue: Yeah. Now thats how I should have described it
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2016-07-13T04:02:10Z beach: Recurse on N and loop over the colors in each recursion.
2016-07-13T04:03:32Z beach: If N = 0 then it's the empty list.
2016-07-13T04:04:31Z fugue: Yeah, that's the problem I'm having setting it up. Would this be 1 function?
2016-07-13T04:04:44Z beach: Otherwise, call recursively with N-1.  This will give a list of lists.  Each inner list is of length N-1.  Loop over the colors, and for each color, CONS that color to each of the inner lists.  Append the result of each loop.
2016-07-13T04:04:53Z beach: Yes, one function.
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2016-07-13T04:07:35Z beach: I should have said, when N = 0, the result is a list containing a single element, the empty list.
2016-07-13T04:07:55Z beach: Because the contract is to return a list of all possible solutions.
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2016-07-13T04:08:23Z beach: Do you need more help?
2016-07-13T04:09:26Z beach: Like do you know how to take an element E and a list L of lists of length N and produce a list of lists of length N+1 that are like the ones in L except with E CONSed to the front?
2016-07-13T04:09:27Z fugue: Yeah, I'm trying to sorta wrap my head around what you said and figure out how to translate it to lisp
2016-07-13T04:09:53Z fugue: No, I don't know how to do that
2016-07-13T04:10:08Z fugue: This is my first couple of weeks learning LISP
2016-07-13T04:10:31Z beach: For example, how to take X and ((A B) (C D) (E F)) and return ((X A B) (X C D) (X E F))?
2016-07-13T04:11:20Z fugue: I would loop for each lst in L and push X on lst
2016-07-13T04:11:20Z beach: OK, so you need to figure that one out first.
2016-07-13T04:11:42Z beach: You don't want to do this with side effects.  Use functional style.
2016-07-13T04:11:49Z beach: It is much easier to understand at this stage.
2016-07-13T04:12:13Z beach: PUSH is side-effecty.  CONS is not.
2016-07-13T04:12:28Z beach: Yes, you can loop, or you can use MAPCAR.
2016-07-13T04:12:33Z beach: clhs mapcar
2016-07-13T04:12:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm
2016-07-13T04:12:43Z beach: Whatever you are more comfortable with.
2016-07-13T04:13:04Z fugue: cons seems reasonable, so loop over each lst in L and cons X to lst
2016-07-13T04:13:18Z beach: ... and collect the result, yes.
2016-07-13T04:14:00Z beach: (loop for inner-list in list collect (cons x inner-list))
2016-07-13T04:14:20Z beach: You can turn that one into a separate function if you want.
2016-07-13T04:14:55Z beach: Call it, say, prepend-element.
2016-07-13T04:15:56Z fugue: * (prepend '(A B C) 'R)
2016-07-13T04:15:56Z fugue: ((R . A) (R . B) (R . C))
2016-07-13T04:16:15Z beach: Yes, but (A B C) is not a list of lists.
2016-07-13T04:16:27Z beach: Better try (prepend '((a) (b) (c)) 'r)
2016-07-13T04:16:41Z fugue: * (prepend '((a) (b) (c)) 'r)
2016-07-13T04:16:42Z fugue: ((R A) (R B) (R C))
2016-07-13T04:16:47Z beach: See?
2016-07-13T04:16:50Z beach: It works already.
2016-07-13T04:17:05Z fugue: This is what I have so far: (loop for a in lst collect (cons color a))
2016-07-13T04:17:29Z beach: Please don't call your variable LST.  Call it LIST instead.
2016-07-13T04:18:03Z fugue: I should probably change 'a' as well
2016-07-13T04:18:12Z beach: Yeah, probably.
2016-07-13T04:18:24Z beach: But it is more neutral so it matters less.
2016-07-13T04:18:31Z beach: It could be any object.
2016-07-13T04:19:35Z beach: Perhaps (loop for colors in list collect (cons color colors)) if you want to be more specific.
2016-07-13T04:21:01Z fugue: ((A (B C E)) (B (A E F))
2016-07-13T04:21:07Z fugue: * (prepend mylist 'r)
2016-07-13T04:21:07Z fugue: ((R A (B C E)) (R B (A E F))
2016-07-13T04:22:19Z beach: For now, don't use the representation (A (B C E)) of a country.  Use (A B C E) instead.
2016-07-13T04:22:28Z fugue: Alright
2016-07-13T04:22:32Z beach: Because that is what your function will generate.
2016-07-13T04:22:41Z beach: You can fix that later if you need to.
2016-07-13T04:23:03Z beach: But there is really no need, unless you have to conform to a particular representation.
2016-07-13T04:23:50Z beach: Now imagine calling PREPEND with the same list ((X) (Y) (Z)) and with each of the colors, say R G B.  You will get three lists ((R X) (R Y) (R Z)),  ((G X) (G Y) (G Z)), ((B X) (B Y) (B Z)).
2016-07-13T04:24:35Z beach: If you APPEND those three lists, you have the result for N.
2016-07-13T04:26:08Z fugue: But I would need to remove the X, Y and Z
2016-07-13T04:26:13Z beach: You may want to create a function PREPEND-ALL that takes the list ((X) (Y) (Z)) and the list (R G B) and that calls PREPEND and returns what I just said.
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2016-07-13T04:27:08Z beach: Try ((R) (G) (B)) instead of ((X) (Y) (Z))
2016-07-13T04:27:08Z jsgrant: Not sure if I've asked here before awhile back, or was just thinking about it... gonna ask anyways. Anyone run through "A Gentle Introduction To Symbolic Computing"? I'm thinking of starting a blog where I run through all the big Common Lisp books from beginner to advanced, and this seems like one of the few I'd do right at the start with the likes of "Land of Lisp".
2016-07-13T04:28:14Z beach: fugue: You need to learn to break down the problem and temporarily put your final goal on hold.
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2016-07-13T04:28:56Z beach: fugue: If you are convinced that PREPEND works as advertised, you can now assume it is a tool in your toolbox, and more on to the next step.
2016-07-13T04:29:01Z fugue: * (prepend-all '((a) (b) (c)) '(R G B))
2016-07-13T04:29:01Z fugue: (((R A) (R B) (R C)) ((G A) (G B) (G C)) ((B A) (B B) (B C)))
2016-07-13T04:29:08Z jsgrant: * And I guess if that sounds like an interesting idea for a blogroll.
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2016-07-13T04:29:26Z beach: fugue: You didn't use APPEND.
2016-07-13T04:29:39Z jsgrant: Seems /finally/ seem like they may be calming down for a bit & I can get some real study time down. :^)
2016-07-13T04:29:41Z beach: fugue: How did you come up with that result?
2016-07-13T04:30:04Z fugue: Let me paste it
2016-07-13T04:30:18Z beach: jsgrant: I am not sufficiently awake to have two discussion threads going.  I'll read what you said later.
2016-07-13T04:30:31Z jsgrant: beach: Np.
2016-07-13T04:30:33Z fugue: beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320335
2016-07-13T04:30:55Z jsgrant is probably going to bed in the next hour to hour-and-a-half though, fyi.
2016-07-13T04:31:26Z beach: fugue: Replace COLLECT by APPEND in prepend-all.  I said you need to APPEND the lists, not create a list of them.
2016-07-13T04:31:54Z beach: fugue: Also, when you show code for people to read, you need to indent it properly.  It is very impolite otherwise.  You force your reader to count parentheses.
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2016-07-13T04:32:27Z fugue: Is there a tool online that can help me with indentation?
2016-07-13T04:32:39Z beach: Yes, Emacs and SLIME.
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2016-07-13T04:34:08Z fugue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320335#1
2016-07-13T04:34:18Z fugue: Does that look better?
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2016-07-13T04:35:27Z beach: Yes.  Typically, you would put the LOOP keywords first on a line so APPEND (PREPEND LIST C) would be the second line of the loop, etc.
2016-07-13T04:35:43Z fugue: beach: How can I save the list to a variable which I can use again
2016-07-13T04:36:36Z fugue: Oh, its appending it to 'list'
2016-07-13T04:36:42Z beach: fugue: That is not how you should think about it.  You should think "functional programming".
2016-07-13T04:37:38Z beach: fugue: Now, imagine you have some integer value N and some colors, say (R G B).
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2016-07-13T04:38:02Z beach: You want to generate all possible lists of length N, containing all combinations of the colors.  OK?
2016-07-13T04:38:20Z emaczen: (write-to-string "\\u2212" :escape nil) -- shouldn't this print "\u2212" ?
2016-07-13T04:38:40Z fugue: Alright
2016-07-13T04:38:56Z beach: fugue: If N is 0, the answer is (()).  OK?
2016-07-13T04:39:21Z beach: fugue: There is only one list of length 0 containing all combinations of R G B, right?
2016-07-13T04:39:34Z beach: That list is ().
2016-07-13T04:39:41Z fugue: That is correct
2016-07-13T04:40:25Z beach: OK, now imagine that N = 1.  You would first call yourself recursively to obtain (()).  Then you would call prepend-all on that result and (R G B).
2016-07-13T04:40:38Z beach: That gives ((R) (G) (B)), right?
2016-07-13T04:40:51Z fugue: thats right
2016-07-13T04:42:17Z beach: fugue: Now imagine N = 2.  You would first call yourself recursively with N = 1 to obtain ((R) (G) (B)) and then call prepend-all on that result and (R G B).  You get ((R R) (R G) (R B) (G R) (G G) (G B) (B R) (B G) (B B)), right?
2016-07-13T04:42:46Z beach: fugue: Now imagine N = 3.  But this is your turn now.
2016-07-13T04:44:19Z fugue: Thats 27 lists to type!
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2016-07-13T04:44:36Z beach: fugue: Don't type it.
2016-07-13T04:44:40Z beach: Write a function to do it.
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2016-07-13T04:44:57Z beach: Call it, say, generate-all-combinations.
2016-07-13T04:45:05Z beach: it takes N and a list of colors.
2016-07-13T04:45:54Z beach: GENERATE-ALL-COMBINATIONS is a recursive function.  You know what to return when N = 0.  We call that the BASE CASE.
2016-07-13T04:47:02Z beach: If N ≠ 0, then call GENERATE-ALL-COMBINATIONS with N-1 and call prepend-all with the result.
2016-07-13T04:47:22Z beach: fugue: Can you do that?
2016-07-13T04:47:39Z fugue: Going to take a stab at it
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2016-07-13T04:54:21Z beach: fugue: Have you written recursive code before?
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2016-07-13T04:54:37Z fugue: Yeah, but not in LISP
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2016-07-13T04:54:50Z beach: OK.  "Lisp", not "LISP" :)
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2016-07-13T04:55:08Z fugue: Ha, well not in Lisp* :]
2016-07-13T04:55:18Z beach: fugue: You are almost there.
2016-07-13T04:55:54Z beach: It's a 3-line function.
2016-07-13T04:56:06Z fugue: is this close: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320336
2016-07-13T04:56:11Z fugue: I know i haven't called prepend-all
2016-07-13T04:56:47Z beach: Right, wrap the recursive call in a call to prepend-all.  And indent the code.
2016-07-13T04:57:10Z beach: And it is not COLOR, it is COLORS.
2016-07-13T04:57:19Z beach: ... in plural form.
2016-07-13T04:57:39Z fugue: So prepend-all looks like this: (defun prepend-all (list color)
2016-07-13T04:57:54Z fugue: What would I give for the first arg?
2016-07-13T04:58:11Z beach: Oh, wait, did I miss one step?
2016-07-13T04:58:46Z beach: No, I did not.
2016-07-13T04:59:03Z beach: prepend-all is (list colorS)
2016-07-13T04:59:06Z beach: not (list color)
2016-07-13T04:59:16Z fugue: oh right
2016-07-13T04:59:41Z fugue: (defun prepend (list color)
2016-07-13T04:59:46Z fugue: That's color only ^
2016-07-13T04:59:53Z beach: Correct.
2016-07-13T05:00:29Z fugue: 'wrap the recursive call in a call to prepend-all.' <-- that part I'm having trouble with
2016-07-13T05:00:38Z beach: So now just pass the result of the recursive call as the first argument to prepend-all and pass colors as the second argument.
2016-07-13T05:01:21Z beach: (prepend-all (gen-combos (- N 1) colors) colors)
2016-07-13T05:01:41Z fugue: oh man
2016-07-13T05:01:55Z fugue: You probably wouldn't believe me, but I literally just tried that
2016-07-13T05:02:02Z fugue: * (gen-combos 2 '(R G B))
2016-07-13T05:02:02Z fugue: ((R R) (R G) (R B) (G R) (G G) (G B) (B R) (B G) (B B))
2016-07-13T05:02:08Z beach: TADA!
2016-07-13T05:02:18Z fugue: ((R R R) (R R G) (R R B) (R G R) (R G G) (R G B) (R B R) (R B G) (R B B)
2016-07-13T05:02:18Z fugue:  (G R R) (G R G) (G R B) (G G R) (G G G) (G G B) (G B R) (G B G) (G B B)
2016-07-13T05:02:18Z fugue:  (B R R) (B R G) (B R B) (B G R) (B G G) (B G B) (B B R) (B B G) (B B B))
2016-07-13T05:02:34Z beach: Standard recursive programming technique.
2016-07-13T05:02:48Z beach: You can TRACE your functions and study how it does it if you want.
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2016-07-13T05:05:44Z beach: jsgrant: So you want a blog with reviews of all major Lisp books?  Sounds like a good idea.
2016-07-13T05:06:24Z beach: jsgrant: Do you want the reviews to be "neutral", i.e., just descriptive, or do you want people to have opinions as well?
2016-07-13T05:06:35Z fugue: beach: this has been a great learning experience for me. Thank you very much.
2016-07-13T05:06:35Z beach: If the latter, you may want several entries for each book.
2016-07-13T05:06:46Z fugue: I appreciate your time
2016-07-13T05:06:55Z beach: fugue: Anytime!  Glad I could help.
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2016-07-13T05:09:14Z beach: fugue: Final touch: indent your code, use (zerop n) rather than (= n 0) and use (1- n) rather than (- n 1).  The general rule is "use the most specific construct that will do the trick.  Oh, and no whitespace before a closing parenthesis.
2016-07-13T05:09:44Z beach: fugue: But we might have the opportunity to get back to that kind of fine tuning.
2016-07-13T05:09:56Z beach: fugue: Good luck with the rest!
2016-07-13T05:10:35Z fugue: I will keep all that in mind and make the changes :) And thanks again! I better get some sleep since I have class tomorrow morning. Have a good night!
2016-07-13T05:10:50Z beach: 'night fugue.
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2016-07-13T06:17:14Z rumbler3_: hello lisp
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2016-07-13T06:20:04Z rumbler3_: I have a list of lists data structure, and I wish to save it in a readable form in order to include it in a source file
2016-07-13T06:20:26Z rumbler3_: there's nothing special in it, its just a plist.  One of the fields is an array
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2016-07-13T06:23:36Z Bike: PRINT it to a file, then
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2016-07-13T06:38:04Z rumbler3_: i see
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2016-07-13T06:42:30Z rumbler3_: it seems stupid simple, but it works and thats awesome
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2016-07-13T07:06:22Z John[Lisbeth]: Have there been major attempts in the past to design rigid type systems for common lisp like in c or haskell, that within those environments are optomized for certain things, but outside those environments still have the flux types of lisp?
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2016-07-13T07:08:03Z Bike: yeah, people do that all the time. like typed racket and such.
2016-07-13T07:08:45Z John[Lisbeth]: So I could do low level programming in lisp if I made sort of a low level sandbox for myself.
2016-07-13T07:09:12Z Bike: types don't make something low level.
2016-07-13T07:09:22Z Bike: i mean you're the one who said haskell.
2016-07-13T07:09:32Z John[Lisbeth]: true, but I could design my own functions which use these low level types and other such things
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2016-07-13T07:09:38Z Bike: and while i'm at it, C's types suck ass from a type perspective.
2016-07-13T07:09:47Z Bike: lisp already has "low level types" if you mean bitfields and stuff.
2016-07-13T07:10:09Z John[Lisbeth]: The thing is I hang with some electrical engineers and they have alot of tight design restraints.
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2016-07-13T07:10:22Z Zhivago: C's types are perhaps better considered as classes rather than types.
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2016-07-13T07:10:55Z Bike: electrical engineers suck at writing code. just in general.
2016-07-13T07:11:19Z John[Lisbeth]: They suck at writing high level code, but for really high preformance robots and machines they have to have really thight time and resource restraints
2016-07-13T07:11:23Z Bike: but yes, sometimes you need to get the timing correct and so on. that might not be doable just with types.
2016-07-13T07:11:27Z eschatologist: Doing low-level programming has nothing to do with having a type system like C's.
2016-07-13T07:11:38Z John[Lisbeth]: I have a friend who just does robots for a living and doenst write any code with memory
2016-07-13T07:11:55Z eschatologist: Take a look at Mezzano if you want to see how it's done.
2016-07-13T07:12:01Z Zhivago: Those issues are probable more related to eager/lazy evaluation, garbage collection, etc.
2016-07-13T07:12:03Z eschatologist: Or at the CADR codebase.
2016-07-13T07:12:49Z Zhivago: C's "low level" suitability being in its nature as an over-eager system requiring custom garbage collection.
2016-07-13T07:12:54Z John[Lisbeth]: To convince my friend that lisp is good I've got to convince him that he can create a sandbox in which he can rip out alot of the things that make lisp good and program like how he would in c. And his favorite thing in c is a finite state machine.
2016-07-13T07:13:06Z John[Lisbeth]: Unless he has no os in which case he uses RTOS
2016-07-13T07:13:16Z Zhivago: That's highly reasonable -- he might be interested in Baker's Linear Lisp proposal.
2016-07-13T07:13:37Z John[Lisbeth]: is that an essay I can read?
2016-07-13T07:14:21Z Zhivago: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html
2016-07-13T07:22:53Z John[Lisbeth]: Very interesting though a little over my head at my current experience level. To me I parse that essay as changing the language's base in order to facilitate different optomizations to the language.
2016-07-13T07:25:11Z John[Lisbeth]: Which is sort of like what I'm getting at I suppose.
2016-07-13T07:26:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I suppose what I am getting at is that if I wrote code in c, then it would only work in c, but if I wrote code in lisp with datastructures and functions similar to c's datastructures and functions, then it would be much more portable in a sense.
2016-07-13T07:26:59Z Zhivago: In what sense? :)
2016-07-13T07:27:02Z Grue`: pretty sure c is more portable than lisp
2016-07-13T07:27:04Z John[Lisbeth]: Becuse if two different people do the same thing, lets say for copying lisps and c's techniques, but both in common lisp, then those two can communicate through each other through the language of lisp which hosts them
2016-07-13T07:27:16Z Bike: the problem is that when you write embedded C, a lot of the time it's not really C. you're writing for a specific-purpose compiler that doesn't do optimizations, so you can get away with writing empty for loops for time, and so on.
2016-07-13T07:27:41Z John[Lisbeth]: True. My engineer buddies hate optomizations
2016-07-13T07:28:52Z John[Lisbeth]: If I wrote some c code and I wrote some lisp code and I wrote some python code and tried to connect those three pieces of code together, I might have a rought time. But if I wrote some lisp that allowed me to copy the style and typing of python, c, and haskell, and programmed in those environments respectively, then I could connect those togther through common lisp
2016-07-13T07:29:29Z Bike: you'd still need an ffi. those are complicated.
2016-07-13T07:30:37Z John[Lisbeth]: What does ffi stand for?
2016-07-13T07:30:49Z Bike: foreign function interface
2016-07-13T07:31:15Z John[Lisbeth]: Well I would say that the common lisp host would act as the middle man. Sort of like the json of the situation
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2016-07-13T07:31:32Z Bike: those are not comparable things
2016-07-13T07:31:55Z Bike: if you mean that you actually have a haskell implementation in the lisp image, that works i guess, but it's a pretty big undertaking
2016-07-13T07:32:43Z John[Lisbeth]: Lets call this special lisp code that behaves like python "Python lisp" for berevity sake. And call the haskell one "haskell lisp" and the c one "c lisp." C lisp can talk to lisp and lisp can talk to c lisp. But c lisp can not talk to haskell lisp. Neither can haskell lisp talk to c lisp or haskell lisp talk to python lisp.
2016-07-13T07:32:57Z John[Lisbeth]: Well not "exactly haskell"
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2016-07-13T07:33:09Z John[Lisbeth]: to copy haskell exactly would be more effort than it is worth, but you could make an approximate haskell
2016-07-13T07:33:16Z John[Lisbeth]: one that is haskelly enough for the types to be an advantage
2016-07-13T07:33:17Z Zhivago: Um, why do we think lisp would be a good RPC protocol?
2016-07-13T07:33:23Z Bike: So you can't actually run Haskell code in general.
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2016-07-13T07:33:33Z John[Lisbeth]: Whell I am saying haskelly code
2016-07-13T07:33:40Z Bike: meaning you probably couldn't take advantage of existing haskell code.
2016-07-13T07:34:02Z John[Lisbeth]: exactly. You would have to start making langauges as sub languages in lisp instead of independent langauge if this paradigm took off.
2016-07-13T07:34:15Z Zhivago: In which you could run code if you rewrote it?
2016-07-13T07:34:24Z Bike: yeah i mean... what is the point exactly
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2016-07-13T07:34:51Z John[Lisbeth]: The point would be to reduce some of the fragmentation in programming.
2016-07-13T07:34:57Z John[Lisbeth]: Unify things more.
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2016-07-13T07:35:13Z John[Lisbeth]: Also to convince my electrical engineer friend he can lobotomize lisp and make it behave like c
2016-07-13T07:35:20Z Zhivago: So you'd get haskell users to migrate from haskell to lisphell?
2016-07-13T07:35:25Z Bike: This is like saying that in order to solve nationalism, you're going to make a world language and it's going to be English
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2016-07-13T07:37:06Z Bike: additionally, a language like haskell has a lot of design in the runtime to make it practical. it's not like it's the same, or even amenable to lisp or whatever, under the hood.
2016-07-13T07:37:22Z Zhivago: It might be, to a lazy lisp.
2016-07-13T07:37:51Z Zhivago: Rather than the one-true-language, I'd suggest investing in decent RPC.
2016-07-13T07:38:12Z Zhivago: It doesn't really matter what language, providing the pieces are small enough.
2016-07-13T07:38:36Z John[Lisbeth]: You could write purely lazy lisp code which gets alot of benefits like how haskell has benefits. And if you designed everythign the right way you could have type checking. But the second you left your safe environment of types you would lose your typechecking
2016-07-13T07:39:01Z Bike: i'm saying types isn't the point.
2016-07-13T07:39:11Z John[Lisbeth]: Typechecking is just one example
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2016-07-13T07:41:41Z Bike: i mean, look. you're not going to have an embedded tiny basically-assembly and haskell in the same runtime. to run the former you need to remove the haskell, so you have a language that's the "restricted" "C-like" that compiles with respect to that runtime, and lo, you are doing the exact same thing as before: writing in a different language with its own compiler.
2016-07-13T07:42:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I'll have to read more about runtimes I suppose
2016-07-13T07:42:51Z Zhivago: Rather than runtimes, I'd clarify the problem you're trying to solve.
2016-07-13T07:43:03Z Zhivago: It may be that the problem is incoherent, or that you are not expressing it coherently.
2016-07-13T07:43:22Z John[Lisbeth]: That is what people always say to me when I ask questions is what problem are you trying to solve, and over time I just keep proving them wrong.
2016-07-13T07:43:27Z Zhivago: Being able to express it coherently should clarify both points.
2016-07-13T07:43:40Z John[Lisbeth]: People have asked me what problem I am trying to solve since I started using linux 7 years ago.
2016-07-13T07:43:49Z Zhivago: How can you prove them wrong when they ask you what problem you are trying to solve?
2016-07-13T07:43:52Z Zhivago: That's just gibberish.
2016-07-13T07:43:54Z Bike: please don't tell us how great you are, we don't care
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2016-07-13T07:44:20Z John[Lisbeth]: All I can say is I can't express to you what problem I'm trying to solve, but that problem lead me to lisp and emacs.
2016-07-13T07:44:30Z John[Lisbeth]: And now I am slowly probing my way into lisp.
2016-07-13T07:44:38Z Zhivago: Then either the problem is incoherent or your expression of it is incoherent.
2016-07-13T07:44:41Z Bike: well, don't expect us to be of much help. we can't provide directions to a target we cannot see.
2016-07-13T07:44:56Z Zhivago: If the the former, then figuring that out will help you. If it is the latter, then figuring that out will help you.
2016-07-13T07:44:58Z John[Lisbeth]: I agree it is difficult to answer my questions.
2016-07-13T07:45:17Z John[Lisbeth]: But again all I can say is I can't express to you the problem I'm trying to solve.
2016-07-13T07:45:20Z Bike: not difficult, impossible
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2016-07-13T07:45:32Z John[Lisbeth]: We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
2016-07-13T07:45:40Z Zhivago: Can you express clearly to yourself the problem that you're trying to solve?
2016-07-13T07:46:09Z John[Lisbeth]: I have stated twice that I can not. And that is just today in this particular conversation. I have been telling people I can not express it for 7 years.
2016-07-13T07:47:37Z Zhivago: Perhaps that is evidence that the problem is itself incoherent ...
2016-07-13T07:47:54Z John[Lisbeth]: Perhaps the problem is just a one problem in an infinite linked list of problems.
2016-07-13T07:48:08Z John[Lisbeth]: And that the second I solve it a new one will arise.
2016-07-13T07:50:57Z John[Lisbeth]: The last problem I was trying to solve seemed to be "what programming language should I use" and it being lisp hinges on lisps ability to be lobotomized.
2016-07-13T07:51:37Z John[Lisbeth]: Otherwise that means that "what programming language should I choose," was the wrong question, and so I have to move back two steps in my linked list of problems.
2016-07-13T07:54:06Z Bike: the point is that if you can't ask your question we have little hope of answering it. right? if you have subquestions specific enough to explain we can help with those.
2016-07-13T07:54:43Z John[Lisbeth]: The keywords you type give me words to search into google, and then the articles I read give my brain better information to solve the problem. It's a method that has worked fine for 7 years.
2016-07-13T07:55:03Z John[Lisbeth]: The disadvantage is that the question answerer is always convinced I haven't learned anything.
2016-07-13T07:56:25Z peey: John: Is the problem this the problem - you want to learn a lot and try to come up with better ways of doing stuff that's currently being done "inefficiently"?
2016-07-13T07:57:56Z John[Lisbeth]: What is the problem with "wanting to learn alot" and "trying to come up with better ways of doing stuff"?
2016-07-13T07:58:52Z peey: No, I didn't mean that it's a problem. Let me rephrase. Is it the case that you want to learn a lot and try to come up with better ways of doing stuff that's currently being done inefficiently?
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2016-07-13T07:59:37Z John[Lisbeth]: Well the current problem I don't know what it is, but the last problem was certainly what programming language should I choose.
2016-07-13T07:59:49Z John[Lisbeth]: I can state that with a fact because knowing the answer I can clearly identify the problem.
2016-07-13T08:00:39Z John[Lisbeth]: But one of the smartest people I know is telling me that it's for certain that my answer is incorrect, and so I have to reconcile what he believes with what I believe.
2016-07-13T08:01:35Z peey: Choose to do what? For projects I used javascript because it's widely supported, for hacking away on problems I use lisp because it's got less gotchas and I can focus more on the task at hand
2016-07-13T08:02:42Z John[Lisbeth]: Lisp could do everything javascript could do if people had choosen lisp for web programming instead of javascript, and this could indeed happen since clojure runs on jvm and soon haskell seems to be able to run on jvm.
2016-07-13T08:03:01Z John[Lisbeth]: Whereas javascript could not tackle many of the problems lisp could tackle, even being widely supported.
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2016-07-13T08:03:17Z John[Lisbeth]: Therefore lisp is a better solution to the problem "what programming language can you choose" than javascript
2016-07-13T08:03:38Z John[Lisbeth]: * in my opinion
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2016-07-13T08:05:48Z peey: Well what you're saying is right. So use lisp, and hack away on your programming project!
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2016-07-13T08:07:28Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't have a "programming project" there is not an implementation problem I am trying to solve.
2016-07-13T08:07:38Z John[Lisbeth]: I am studying the longevity of code, and the unix way.
2016-07-13T08:07:51Z John[Lisbeth]: I've been at it for about 4 years.
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2016-07-13T08:08:45Z peey: Oh. In that case you can actually analyze specific aspects of different languages and publish a research paper and share your knowledge!
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2016-07-13T08:16:55Z John[Lisbeth]: I just appreciate all of your wisdom on here and the wisdom of people in irc who have been doing this stuff for years. I try to treat irc time like a finite resource not to be wasted, so I hope I am not ruffling anyone's feathers.
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2016-07-13T08:45:03Z hjudt: hi! with bordeaux-threads, how can i use a function that requires parameters? make-thread only takes function and &key name. the api doc does not help with this.
2016-07-13T08:45:39Z jackdaniel: hjudt: (bt:make-thread (lambda () (my-function-with-parameters *xxx* 3 :hi 8)))
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2016-07-13T08:47:20Z hjudt: ok, so wrapping it inside another (anonymous) function. thanks.
2016-07-13T08:47:25Z jackdaniel: sure
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2016-07-13T09:26:04Z John[Lisbeth]: what runtime does common lisp use if any?
2016-07-13T09:27:10Z Bike: each implementation has various runtimes depending on backend
2016-07-13T09:27:16Z jdz: i think all implementations link to libc
2016-07-13T09:27:26Z jdz: except the bare-metal ones
2016-07-13T09:27:51Z jdz: oh, right, and then there's ABCL
2016-07-13T09:27:53Z John[Lisbeth]: Let's say standard sbcl.
2016-07-13T09:28:37Z jdz: i think your question is suspicios
2016-07-13T09:28:51Z John[Lisbeth]: I am simply curious about the relationships between runtimes and common lisp, nothing more.
2016-07-13T09:29:02Z jdz: what do you mean by "runtimes"?
2016-07-13T09:29:09Z John[Lisbeth]: A bytecode interpreter.
2016-07-13T09:29:46Z jdz: ECL i think can be shipped as a dynamic library, and it has a bytecode interpreter
2016-07-13T09:29:50Z phadthai: they each have their own in general, as well as a compiler
2016-07-13T09:30:17Z phadthai: yes ECL has both a bytecode interpreter and a compiler via C
2016-07-13T09:30:36Z jdz: SBCL also has brought back bytecode recently
2016-07-13T09:31:11Z jdz: but generally code is compiled straight to machine instructions
2016-07-13T09:31:38Z jdz: try (disassemble 'your-function-name-here)
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2016-07-13T09:32:30Z John[Lisbeth]: that's a really useful function
2016-07-13T09:32:40Z jdz: yes, it's lovely
2016-07-13T09:33:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I assume something similar to disassemble is used in teh compilation of lisp code
2016-07-13T09:33:36Z jdz: o_O
2016-07-13T09:33:54Z jdz: yes, it's called something with an "assemble" in the name (maybe)
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2016-07-13T09:34:04Z salva0: how can I reference in CL the float value infinite?
2016-07-13T09:34:41Z edgar-rft: John[Lisbeth]: CLHS 3.2.1 says: "The term runtime refers to the duration of time that the loader is loading compiled code or compiled code is being executed. At runtime, only the run-time environment is available.", see <http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm>
2016-07-13T09:35:20Z salva0: I see, there are constants as most-positive-double-float defined, but can't find anyone referring to infinite as supported by ieee754
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2016-07-13T09:37:47Z edgar-rft: salva0: IEEE "inf" and "Nan" in Common Lisp are defined as floating-point errors
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2016-07-13T09:39:23Z phadthai: there seem to also be some implementation-specifics like SB-EXT:DOUBLE-FLOAT-NEGATIVE-INFINITY in SBCL... also see the gsll library perhaps (i.e. gsl:+positive-infinity+, gsl:+negative-infinity+)
2016-07-13T09:39:56Z edgar-rft: Some libraries use keywords like :infinity or:not-a-number to represent IEEE "inf" and "NaN", but the built-in math functions cannot handle these as "Inf" or "NaN".
2016-07-13T09:41:09Z phadthai: hmm there would also be ieee-floats library
2016-07-13T09:41:09Z salva0: ok, thanks!
2016-07-13T09:41:12Z phadthai: edgar-rft: makes sense
2016-07-13T09:42:01Z hjudt: another noob question: i can catch single conditions with handler-bind. how i can specify a catch-all condition? that is, if none of the single specified conditions match, how can i make it swallow any other error?
2016-07-13T09:42:44Z edgar-rft: clhs ignore-errors
2016-07-13T09:42:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_ignore.htm
2016-07-13T09:43:12Z edgar-rft: hjudt: this is probably what you're looking for ^^
2016-07-13T09:43:15Z jdz: but never swallow errors!
2016-07-13T09:43:30Z phadthai: there are various facilities, including establishing a custom debugger hook even... also, there is a hierarchy in the condition system so depending on what you catch it'll be more or less specific
2016-07-13T09:43:36Z jdz: IGNORE-ERRORS should only be used in the repl, anyway
2016-07-13T09:43:53Z hjudt: jdz: not "swallow", but there can be various types of network errors when using drakma for example.
2016-07-13T09:44:21Z hjudt: i do not want to specify every single one, just return nil and a generic error message for the user.
2016-07-13T09:44:26Z jdz: hjudt: try looking into drakma error hierarchy -- they all should have a base class
2016-07-13T09:44:34Z jackdaniel: hjudt: also you could catch condition of type T
2016-07-13T09:44:37Z jackdaniel: with handler-case
2016-07-13T09:44:37Z jdz: s/class/base error type
2016-07-13T09:45:15Z hjudt: drakma:http-request signals usocket:ns-host-not-found-error and usocket:connection-refused-error, also sb-int:simple-stream-error.
2016-07-13T09:45:29Z hjudt: and there may be others which i do not expect but can treat the same way
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2016-07-13T09:46:39Z jackdaniel: hjudt: (handler-case (/ 0 0) (ns-host-not-found-error (cond) 'bah) (t (cond) 'ignored-condition))
2016-07-13T09:46:51Z hjudt: jdz: thanks for the hint
2016-07-13T09:47:02Z jdz: well, if your application is supposed to give up and exit with whatever error message, then just use T as the error type
2016-07-13T09:48:07Z jdz: but, for instance, in case of host not found you might add a restart to change the host name/address
2016-07-13T09:48:28Z hjudt: jdz: no, the ns-host-not-found and connection-refused errors are something that can occur more often and need special treatment, but the other errors may really be "unexpected"
2016-07-13T09:49:20Z jdz: the rule #1 of error handling: handle only the errors you can deal with
2016-07-13T09:49:28Z hjudt: ns-host-not-found might be because the host does not exist yet, but will be set-up soon
2016-07-13T09:49:46Z jdz: which means you may only use catch-all handler at the top-level of your application (e.g., entry point)
2016-07-13T09:50:19Z hjudt: the treatment of these errors is the same, but for some i want to give the user a better explanation why something failed.
2016-07-13T09:50:34Z jdz: yes, good idea
2016-07-13T09:50:38Z hjudt: (i am gathering host information)
2016-07-13T09:51:44Z hjudt: that is why i want to specify some errors but also need a catch-all case
2016-07-13T09:52:57Z hjudt: edgar-rft: thanks for ignore-errors too, i will remember this. it will be useful some time...
2016-07-13T09:53:13Z jdz: well
2016-07-13T09:53:15Z jdz: clhs 9.1
2016-07-13T09:53:16Z specbot: Condition System Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_a.htm
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2016-07-13T09:53:40Z jdz: hjudt: IGNORE-ERRORS will bite you in the ass more than it will help
2016-07-13T09:54:33Z jdz: just forget it's there
2016-07-13T09:54:39Z jdz: thank me later :)
2016-07-13T09:54:53Z hjudt: i believe the handler-case solution will do very fine for my purpose
2016-07-13T09:54:59Z hjudt: btw: have i understood correctly that drakma cannot deal with read timeouts on sbcl? that is, it might hang indefinitely?
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2016-07-13T09:55:29Z hjudt: or is this only a problem of an older version of drakma?
2016-07-13T09:58:19Z hjudt: because if it is, i haven't been able to reproduce it yet
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2016-07-13T09:58:38Z jdz: reproduce what? a read timeout?
2016-07-13T09:59:28Z jdz: documentation says drakma supports timeouts on SBCL
2016-07-13T09:59:51Z jdz: oh wait -- is it just a connection timeout?
2016-07-13T10:00:23Z hjudt: :connection-timeout 20 does work
2016-07-13T10:00:27Z jdz: right, there's also read-timeout and write-timeout
2016-07-13T10:00:54Z jdz: which are supported in LispWorks only apparently
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2016-07-13T10:01:36Z hjudt: yes, so i will have to look for another solution (wookie?) or a way to stop the threads.
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2016-07-13T10:02:39Z hjudt: i believe sbcl does have a nice threads api but i started with bordeaux-threads.
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2016-07-13T10:04:31Z hjudt: or maybe use bordeaux:destroy-thread even if advised not to use it in user code
2016-07-13T10:05:09Z hjudt: but that does only kill the bordeaux thread, not the drakma?
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2016-07-13T10:08:08Z p_l: it should kill the thread
2016-07-13T10:08:11Z jdz: does drakma create its own threads?
2016-07-13T10:08:26Z H4ns: jdz: no
2016-07-13T10:08:28Z hjudt: jdz: probably not
2016-07-13T10:08:34Z hjudt: so it should work
2016-07-13T10:08:57Z hjudt: sb-thread:list-all-threads will help me here with debugging
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2016-07-13T10:09:12Z p_l: also, considering that b-t is just interface to implementation's thread support, it shouldn't matter...
2016-07-13T10:09:15Z jdz: slime can list threads, too
2016-07-13T10:09:55Z H4ns: drakma can work with a socket that was opened elsewhere, so if you open the socket, set the timeouts using sbcl specific functions and then pass it to drakma, things should work well.
2016-07-13T10:09:57Z hjudt: since i need to run the queries in threads anyway, killing threads after a timeout will be a viable solution
2016-07-13T10:10:09Z jdz: the function is named slime-list-threads (very sneaky)
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2016-07-13T10:10:35Z H4ns: killing threads is never a good idea because you could kill them while they hold locks that you'll then never be able to recover.
2016-07-13T10:10:51Z jdz: hjudt: you sure do not want to have multiple threads use a single drakma connection simultaneously, right?
2016-07-13T10:10:58Z H4ns: remember that threads are not processes. there is no resource management associated with threads.
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2016-07-13T10:12:44Z hjudt: H4ns: i will look into your socket timeout proposal
2016-07-13T10:13:08Z hjudt: at the moment, i am not using any locks but who knows when i need to
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2016-07-13T10:13:49Z hjudt: jdz: no, each thread makes a new drakma connection
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2016-07-13T10:15:15Z hjudt: there are only simple queries to various servers collecting information. i just don't want to do it in serial but in parallel. one server 5 seconds, but many servers (many * 5 seconds) ;-)
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2016-07-13T10:18:55Z wywedanse: so where would the CLIM terminal be?
2016-07-13T10:19:04Z wywedanse: source?
2016-07-13T10:20:40Z John[Lisbeth]: wywedanse: The greatest lisp terminal you can get is emacs
2016-07-13T10:20:47Z John[Lisbeth]: It's tough to learn emacs but very worth it
2016-07-13T10:21:13Z wywedanse: c'mon, something simpler at the beginning
2016-07-13T10:21:35Z John[Lisbeth]: Well what we can try to do is make you a custom emacs that takes you straight into slime, which is the lisp terminal more or less
2016-07-13T10:21:42Z John[Lisbeth]: and then you won't have to think about emacs when you are using it
2016-07-13T10:21:51Z John[Lisbeth]: it would be just like having a lisp terminal like you wanted
2016-07-13T10:21:58Z hjudt: jdz: but i can reuse connections because i actually have to send two requests to each server (the second built with information from the first).
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2016-07-13T10:22:34Z jdz: hjudt: sure, drakma supports that
2016-07-13T10:23:01Z wywedanse: John[Lisbeth]: I can't have the link then?
2016-07-13T10:23:20Z wywedanse: I am beggin
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2016-07-13T10:27:04Z John[Lisbeth]: wywedanse: hold on it will take me a little bit to make one
2016-07-13T10:27:17Z John[Lisbeth]: wywedanse: what operating system are you using?
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2016-07-13T10:31:33Z H4ns: hjudt: you have to consider that something that is called by drakma may acquire locks
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2016-07-13T10:31:42Z H4ns: hjudt: killing threads is never a safe operation.
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2016-07-13T10:38:33Z rel-s: SBCL vs. Clozure - any preferences?
2016-07-13T10:38:54Z jdz: both!
2016-07-13T10:39:12Z jdz: seriously, they're both fine implementations
2016-07-13T10:39:45Z rel-s: of course, but do you have any preference? and why, if you do?
2016-07-13T10:40:27Z John[Lisbeth]: If I were to choose, SBCL has more support, so I would only choose clozure if it had features I wanted which weren't offered in SBCL.
2016-07-13T10:41:22Z jdz: well, in my experience CCL compiled code faster, but SBCL compiled into faster code.  i've heard SBCL's compilation speed has increased a lot.  my other experience is that CCL compiles into smaller code, and the image itself is smaller than SBCL's on startup.
2016-07-13T10:41:56Z jdz: but the real difference is that while developing i tend to switch between them (if possible) because they reveal portability problems
2016-07-13T10:42:03Z jackdaniel: rel-s: if you need threads on armv7 (32 bit) then CCL is your best pick
2016-07-13T10:42:12Z jdz: and yes, SBCL tends to have better slime support
2016-07-13T10:42:16Z John[Lisbeth]: Compilation speed isn't a real big deal unless you want JIT compiling, but that's just my opinion.
2016-07-13T10:42:21Z p_l: John[Lisbeth]: IIRC Clozure is also stabler (or used to be) on win32
2016-07-13T10:42:32Z John[Lisbeth]: There is a commonlisp.net
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2016-07-13T10:42:53Z p_l: John[Lisbeth]: interestingly, compilation speed was AFAIK why ITA started using CCL on web interface component
2016-07-13T10:43:29Z p_l: I'd probably also stick to CCL in case of OSX
2016-07-13T10:43:30Z H4ns: it made a difference in the order of one hour vs fifteen minutes compiling qres, and that was very significant back then.
2016-07-13T10:43:54Z p_l: H4ns: that's pretty significant
2016-07-13T10:45:05Z H4ns: also, clozure has deadlines on i/o operations, solving timeout issues when talking to sockets very well (i think)
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2016-07-13T10:46:02Z H4ns: i must admit that i implemented much of that :)
2016-07-13T10:47:07Z rel-s: what about slime interaction? I'm currently using sbcl, would it be easy to switch between it and ccl?
2016-07-13T10:47:26Z p_l: rel-s: in my experience it was pretty easy
2016-07-13T10:47:45Z rel-s: p_l: thanks!
2016-07-13T10:47:47Z H4ns: i never had any problems using ccl with slime, but i'm not using a lot of slime's more advanced features anyway
2016-07-13T10:48:12Z p_l: some extras that are very implementation dependant might not work, but generally SBCL and CCL are in the top of support
2016-07-13T10:48:35Z jdz: rel-s: it's easy to use one or the other if you have them installed, so just go on and see which one works better for you i say
2016-07-13T10:48:44Z p_l: now, Symbolics CL which is what I've been mainly meddling with recently... now that would be "fun" with swank ;)
2016-07-13T10:50:33Z p_l: ... just tried C-u M-x slime <RET> $path_to_ccl <RET>
2016-07-13T10:50:43Z p_l: got SLIME prompt in the time it takes SBCL to load core -_-
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2016-07-13T10:53:33Z hjudt: H4ns: i will try to do it with sockets, it sounds sane and less hackish. better invest time in that now than worry about it later.
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2016-07-13T10:57:23Z hjudt: according to the docs, the drakma read-timeout does not come into effect when reusing streams btw, so i would need to deal with this anyway.
2016-07-13T10:57:43Z hjudt: (that is, if i used lispworks)
2016-07-13T10:58:11Z H4ns: hjudt: sure - if drakma does not open the stream, it also sets no timeouts.
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2016-07-13T10:58:21Z therik: morning ;)
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2016-07-13T11:50:39Z pillton: I'm reading the planet.lisp.org blog post on the For macro. Why is "full-blown code-walking" understandably frowned upon?
2016-07-13T11:51:08Z Grue``: cause it's hard?
2016-07-13T11:51:15Z moore33: Cuz it's a pain in the ass to get right.
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2016-07-13T12:08:20Z loke`: pillton: It can ony be done reliably when you have implementation support. For example, SBCL has a code walking library. But there is nothing platform-independent, so you're always going to stumble into edge-cases unless you target a specific implementation only.
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2016-07-13T12:11:54Z pillton: e.g. macros which invoke macroexpand with a non-nil environment.
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2016-07-13T12:37:51Z alejandrozf: hi! sbcl.org is down?!?!?
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2016-07-13T12:39:56Z loke`: Yes.
2016-07-13T12:39:59Z loke`: ksa                       [20:13]
2016-07-13T12:40:00Z loke`: <loke> hemtam: Woah. Det maste ha varit hur dyrt som helst.             [20:14]
2016-07-13T12:40:00Z loke`: <hemtam> 1020 SEK, det var iaf dyrare än inne
2016-07-13T12:40:01Z loke`: Oops
2016-07-13T12:40:08Z loke`: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.sbcl.org
2016-07-13T12:41:44Z alejandrozf: :(
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2016-07-13T12:47:18Z Grue``: alejandrozf: you can download here http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/sbcl/1.3.7/
2016-07-13T12:49:11Z alejandrozf: thx Grue`` but I'm concerned with the reason of official site down, its only today or ...?
2016-07-13T12:50:02Z loke`: alejandrozf: Probaly just today. I was on the site a few days ago.
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2016-07-13T12:50:37Z alejandrozf: loke`, ohh perfect thx
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2016-07-13T12:56:31Z H4ns: alejandrozf: it is www.sbcl.org, not sbcl.org
2016-07-13T12:57:05Z H4ns: ah, no, sorry, forget about it.
2016-07-13T12:57:07Z fe[nl]ix: sbcl.org redirects to the former
2016-07-13T12:57:15Z loke`: Helo fenlix
2016-07-13T12:57:23Z H4ns: just recognized that.  it used to be like i said
2016-07-13T12:57:39Z fe[nl]ix: hi loke`
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2016-07-13T13:03:21Z hjudt: H4ns: when using usocket:socket-connect like drakma, i assume i need to set :element-type 'octet, because otherwise i get an error that a matching method cannot be found. however, i get an error that octet is unknown. where can i find the definition of octet?
2016-07-13T13:04:28Z H4ns: hjudt: i'm guessing that it is coming from flexi-streams, but i'd use '(unsigned-byte 8) anyway
2016-07-13T13:05:56Z H4ns: hjudt: you could find out yourself:  go into the drakma package in your repl (in-package :drakma), type 'octet and M-.
2016-07-13T13:06:01Z loke`: H4ns: alexandria also defines it, but yes. (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) is the best way to go.
2016-07-13T13:06:14Z hjudt: hm. ok, that seems to work but does not solve my problem: There is no applicable method for the generic function #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION (COMMON-LISP:SETF FLEXI-STREAMS:FLEXI-STREAM-ELEMENT-TYPE) (2)> when called with arguments (CHARACTER #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "socket...
2016-07-13T13:06:21Z H4ns: hjudt: you'll end up in flexi-stream's mapping.lisp
2016-07-13T13:06:42Z hjudt: so i guess it does not matter if i find out what octet is
2016-07-13T13:06:43Z H4ns: hjudt: you'll have to wrap the socket in a flexi-stream, if i'm not totally mistaken.  let me look.
2016-07-13T13:07:17Z H4ns: hjudt: just let me know if you no longer want support.
2016-07-13T13:07:30Z hjudt: no, that's great. please help!
2016-07-13T13:07:46Z hjudt: drakma uses usocket in request.lisp
2016-07-13T13:07:51Z hjudt: that is where i looked
2016-07-13T13:09:19Z H4ns: hjudt: right.  so an fd-stream won't do.  i think the best way is to use usocket:socket-connect to establish the connection, then set the timeout using usocket:socket to access the underlying fd-stream
2016-07-13T13:09:29Z hjudt: but you may be right, drakma docs talk about flexi-streams
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2016-07-13T13:09:58Z H4ns: hjudt: i've not looked at the code for a while, so i need to look things up in the source.
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2016-07-13T13:10:49Z hjudt: i will simply try it, need to read flexi-streams doc first. thanks.
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2016-07-13T13:11:32Z hjudt: and you were right, it is flexi-streams that defines octet
2016-07-13T13:11:50Z hjudt: so i can simply use that
2016-07-13T13:11:54Z H4ns: hjudt: remember that if drakma's docs and source talk about "socket", an usocket is really meant.  also take the docstring lightly: "STREAM MUST be a stream returned by a previous invocation of HTTP-REQUEST"
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2016-07-13T13:12:37Z hjudt: so i cannot create my own stream from a socket?
2016-07-13T13:12:44Z hjudt: s/create/use/
2016-07-13T13:12:53Z H4ns: hjudt: you can, but you need to be careful to create the right type of stream.
2016-07-13T13:12:57Z loke`: hjudt: Yes you can.
2016-07-13T13:13:09Z hjudt: ok that's fine then
2016-07-13T13:13:28Z loke`: hjudt: The socket is a stream, but if you need to change its properties you need to wrap it in a flexi-stream
2016-07-13T13:13:42Z H4ns: hjudt: i would look at the sixth return value of a drakma:http-request invocation on the repl to see what type of stream it returns when you call it with :close nil
2016-07-13T13:14:08Z H4ns gladly admits that this is not an "API" or something.  it should be easier to get timeouts.
2016-07-13T13:14:16Z hjudt: good idea
2016-07-13T13:15:34Z H4ns: instead of forcing the user to go through this procedure, it might be better to provide a after-connect-hook keyword argument that gets called after the socket has been opened by drakma and that can be used to do the timeout magic.
2016-07-13T13:16:16Z hjudt: i wonder a bit about that timeout stuff though. drakma supports :timeout meaning connection timeout, but it then uses usocket :timeout which are read timeouts. but maybe that is a misunderstanding or i do not fully understand it.
2016-07-13T13:16:34Z loke`: H4ns: That would be mighty helpfun. I have needed that.
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2016-07-13T13:16:57Z H4ns: any takers for the implementation?  i'd gladly review a PR
2016-07-13T13:17:26Z H4ns: hjudt: timeouts are tricky business, and i think one of the problems is that usocket does not have a good overall model for timeouts.
2016-07-13T13:17:26Z loke`: I'd be happy to do it next time I need it.
2016-07-13T13:18:51Z hjudt: yes, nevertheless i guess it will work to circumvent drakma timeouts and only react to usocket read timeouts.
2016-07-13T13:19:07Z H4ns: drakma has no timeouts on sbcl anyway
2016-07-13T13:19:51Z hjudt: according to the docs it has? at least connection timeouts
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2016-07-13T13:21:21Z H4ns: oh, interesting.  was it myself who added that? :)
2016-07-13T13:22:29Z hjudt: request.lisp, line 227: #+(or abcl clisp lispworks mcl openmcl sbcl) (connection-timeout 20)
2016-07-13T13:22:57Z H4ns: i just saw that, and it seems to be implemented properly for sbcl.
2016-07-13T13:23:04Z H4ns: for some value of properly
2016-07-13T13:23:36Z hjudt: it uses usocket:socket-connect :timeout
2016-07-13T13:23:55Z hjudt: when setting the creating the http stream
2016-07-13T13:25:11Z H4ns: that is used to put an upper bound to socket-connect, it seems.  but anyway, given that all this is pretty shaky territory, i'd advise you to use M-. and M-, a lot to figure out what is implemented how.
2016-07-13T13:26:37Z hjudt: thanks for the advice
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2016-07-13T13:44:44Z hjudt: H4ns: for a start: http://pastebin.com/kT7998t2
2016-07-13T13:45:28Z H4ns: looks good on the first sight.  does it work?
2016-07-13T13:46:35Z hjudt: at least i get back a proper response with content. i will use this and see if there are any problems, but so far it looks pretty good. should work, as i have simply "reverse-engineered" drakma according to your instructions.
2016-07-13T13:47:17Z hjudt: do you have any idea why it uses latin-1 instead of utf-8 for the flexi-stream?
2016-07-13T13:47:36Z loke`: hjudt: Because you didn't specify the encoding?
2016-07-13T13:47:53Z loke`: hjudt: t should default to your platform encoding htough, so perhaps you are usng latin-1?
2016-07-13T13:48:02Z H4ns: headers are always read as latin-1
2016-07-13T13:48:07Z hjudt: loke`: no, it _is_ specified to that value. look at the code.
2016-07-13T13:48:34Z H4ns: drakma will switch the encoding for the body if needed.  without having looked at the code, i would suggest to stick with latin-1.
2016-07-13T13:48:36Z hjudt: H4ns: this clarifies it. i guess there is some spec for this.
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2016-07-13T13:48:50Z H4ns: there is, it is part of how http works.
2016-07-13T13:49:07Z H4ns: also, it is part of why the doc specifies that the stream must be one that drakma returned itself
2016-07-13T13:49:10Z hjudt: i get content-type text/plain;charset=utf-8 in the response
2016-07-13T13:50:02Z hjudt: so that seems to be ok
2016-07-13T13:50:07Z H4ns: yeah.  you should be all set.  if you feel that you need to look at the source, check how drakma changes the encoding of the socket stream while processing the request.
2016-07-13T13:50:50Z hjudt: that is why it uses flexi streams, right? to change the encoding on the fly?
2016-07-13T13:51:25Z H4ns: correct.  it also needs to process binary data, and flexi-streams is a layer over binary streams that allows to switch between character and binary mode dynamically.
2016-07-13T13:51:33Z hjudt: pretty neat
2016-07-13T13:51:55Z H4ns: some lisp implementations have native bivalent streams, but flexi-streams is the portable solution.  it also has better error reporting than many native implementations of bivalent streams.
2016-07-13T13:52:14Z H4ns: at the expense of being generally slower, of course :)
2016-07-13T13:52:51Z hjudt: machines become faster, it is just the software that becomes slower ;-)
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2016-07-13T13:53:41Z hjudt: now i will see how this works in practice. thanks for your help so far.
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2016-07-13T14:32:24Z p_l: Was it standardised (even if in the form of a library) how to make streams that return/receive any kind of lisp object?
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2016-07-13T14:33:09Z p_l: Dealing with Symbolics token-stream and the like recently, and I'd like to port the code to plain CL
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2016-07-13T15:40:17Z loke`: p_l: No, there is no such standard to my knowledge.
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2016-07-13T16:05:45Z porky11: is there some lib for socks-proxy?
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2016-07-13T16:11:33Z p_l: loke`: pity - I have used different element-type in streams previously, and the symbolics code looked quite nice (though obviously Flavors instead of CLOS)
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2016-07-13T16:12:40Z loke`: p_l: I' using Conspack to encode objects in streams.
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2016-07-13T16:15:52Z p_l: loke`: in this case, I was hoping for general interface that would make porting certain Genera code easier
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2016-07-13T16:16:13Z p_l: loke`: part of my grand plan for ELS'17
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2016-07-13T16:16:36Z loke`: Has it been decided where ELS will be held next year?
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2016-07-13T16:21:48Z moore33: p_l: We did some stuff like that in McClim's input editing streams. Clim2 might have something similar to reuse.
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2016-07-13T16:30:57Z rme: loke`: I believe that it ELS 2017 is planned to be held in Brussels.
2016-07-13T16:31:15Z p_l: Examples of symbolics extended streams - byte-stream with mark (denotes message boundaries), token streams, transacted token streams, etc
2016-07-13T16:32:00Z p_l: In a way, it's OSI-style networking vs. "always deal with byte stream from scratch" of C
2016-07-13T16:32:11Z p_l: Tapes are implemented similarly
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2016-07-13T16:35:37Z loke`: rme: Thanks. I
2016-07-13T16:35:42Z loke`: I'll try to make it there.
2016-07-13T16:35:50Z loke`: Long flight, but whatever :-)
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2016-07-13T16:37:39Z rme: Hours of misery in an airplane, but you'll be able to get good Belgian frites.
2016-07-13T16:38:02Z rme: And talk about Lisp, too, of course.
2016-07-13T16:40:02Z loke`: rme: Yes. Like 14 hours.
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2016-07-13T16:40:47Z loke`: I have to make that very flight tomorrow, as I'm in Paris now and heading bac home tomorrow.
2016-07-13T16:41:35Z rme: That's rough.  Bon courage, mon vieux.
2016-07-13T16:41:41Z loke`: Thanks :-)
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2016-07-13T18:07:59Z rpg: should I be surprised that Meta-. is not working in SLIME + ECL?
2016-07-13T18:08:48Z rpg: I get error "Too few arguments supplied to a macro or destructuring-bind form
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2016-07-13T18:09:53Z jackdaniel: you should, M-. works fine for me
2016-07-13T18:10:20Z rpg: jackdaniel: is there any chance this is because I'm still using ECL 15 (on Mac)?
2016-07-13T18:11:24Z jackdaniel: nope, rather not
2016-07-13T18:11:57Z rpg: jackdaniel: OK. I just updated from git.  I'll retest and check in with you if it still fails. Thanks!
2016-07-13T18:11:58Z jackdaniel: maybe your slime and swank are not in sync?
2016-07-13T18:12:03Z jackdaniel: sure
2016-07-13T18:12:45Z jackdaniel is afk
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2016-07-13T21:15:13Z taro9: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-07-13T23:11:53Z rumbler31: greetings #lisp
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2016-07-13T23:12:17Z rumbler31: I have a need that I am pretty sure requires a macro
2016-07-13T23:13:32Z rumbler31: trying to write something that takes a list of fields and types, and creates a class and a reader/writer that constructs a class from reading from a stream, does't the right thing regarding writing the class to the stream
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2016-07-13T23:14:35Z rumbler31: i imagine this idea isn't new
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2016-07-13T23:16:39Z rumbler31: creating the defclass form seems pretty straightforward, I loop through the argument list and create slot forms
2016-07-13T23:17:07Z rumbler31: and then append the defclass form and the slot forms.
2016-07-13T23:19:28Z rumbler31: with a stream reader function, I have to loop through the arg list and create read-byte forms, but the result list has to be put inside a let form
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2016-07-13T23:21:46Z rumbler31: I'm new at writing macros, so some of what i'm doing feels a little inelegant.  for instance, I know that a macro call yields only 1 form, so I have to put the defclass resulting form and the reader/writer forms inside a progn, but when I macroexpand a test form, I only see the last form in the progn
2016-07-13T23:22:16Z Bike: paste your code?
2016-07-13T23:22:34Z rumbler31: little things i'm trying to figure out are like, how to create things like :name when the name part has to be evaluated
2016-07-13T23:23:55Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320404
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2016-07-13T23:24:49Z Bike: ah, see, you need to expand into a progn, you know?
2016-07-13T23:25:10Z Bike: so it'll be like `(progn (defclass ,name () ,slots) (defun bla bla bla))
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2016-07-13T23:26:18Z Bike: and you can use ,@. so it's (defun binary-reader (stream) (let ((obj (make-instance ',name))) ,@stream-reader-list obj)
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2016-07-13T23:28:53Z rumbler31: oops got bounced
2016-07-13T23:29:06Z rumbler31: i figured a handy thing like that existed
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2016-07-13T23:29:58Z rumbler31: how can I create something like name-stream-reader where name is evalutated
2016-07-13T23:30:02Z rumbler31: or similar, :name
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2016-07-13T23:32:19Z Bike: you can build the name as a string, and then use INTERN or FIND-SYMBOL.
2016-07-13T23:33:29Z rumbler31: the string part I got, but I guess I'd have to do something like (let newsymbol (intern (stringstuff with name))) then use ,newsymbol
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2016-07-13T23:34:31Z rumbler31: that was supposed to be a question, sorry.  is that what you're talking about?
2016-07-13T23:36:07Z Bike: yeah, something like that.
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2016-07-13T23:37:04Z Bike: though, nowadays it's considered a bit bad form to make symbols in a macro like that. you can just have the user specify the names, like defclass does.
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2016-07-13T23:38:22Z pillton: I'd also expect make-binary-class to be a function.
2016-07-13T23:38:49Z pillton: Perhaps define-binary-class.
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2016-07-13T23:41:42Z rumbler31: well right now what i'm trying to do is end up with a slot form that looks like (arg1 :initarg :arg1 :accessor arg1).  I need to somehow end up with :arg1 given that arg1 is supplied in the params-list to the macro
2016-07-13T23:42:21Z rumbler31: similarly, if I want to end up with multiple of these classes, I can either make the reader/writer a method, or just name it newclass-stream-reader/writer
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2016-07-13T23:42:53Z rumbler31: pillton: why do you say that?
2016-07-13T23:42:59Z Bike: oh, that's easier. (intern symbol :keyword) should work.
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2016-07-13T23:51:20Z bullets: um... I don't understand force-output
2016-07-13T23:51:37Z bullets: seems I need it with sockets. But is there a way to avoid calling force-output every time?
2016-07-13T23:52:23Z bullets: ((format stream "!~%") (force-output)) <- is there a switch that allows me to save myself the (force-output)?
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2016-07-13T23:53:03Z Bike: not in format.
2016-07-13T23:53:53Z bullets: baw :(
2016-07-13T23:54:00Z bullets: I guess a macro would do then
2016-07-13T23:54:15Z pillton: rumbler31: Because 95.65% of the symbols exported from the CL package with names starting with make- are functions.
2016-07-13T23:55:35Z pillton: The remaining 4.35% belongs to make-method.
2016-07-13T23:55:50Z bullets: thanks Bike
2016-07-13T23:59:25Z rpg: I'm pretty sure that a newline should force output in most normal streams
2016-07-13T23:59:45Z rumbler31: pillton: oh you meant call it something else, not make it a function
2016-07-14T00:00:28Z bullets: rpg: doesn't in my case
2016-07-14T00:00:50Z rpg: surprising.  Most streams are line-buffered....
2016-07-14T00:00:56Z pillton: rpg: I don't think so. I have to use force-output a lot to get output in to the slime repl buffer.
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2016-07-14T00:01:24Z rumbler31: i find it to be necessary as well
2016-07-14T00:01:26Z pillton runs SBCL without threads.
2016-07-14T00:02:22Z pillton: rumbler31: Yeah.
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2016-07-14T00:44:22Z pillton: Does anyone know if Attila Lendvai is on IRC?
2016-07-14T00:46:28Z mordocai: pillton: last seen 9 hours ago as attila_lendvai
2016-07-14T00:47:01Z mordocai: pillton: Found out via googling their name + irc, seing a nick of attila_lendvai and doing /msg nickserv info attila_lendvai
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2016-07-14T00:49:46Z pillton: mordocai: Thanks.
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2016-07-14T00:58:02Z rumbler31: !seen Bike
2016-07-14T00:59:39Z rumbler31: Bike:  I could use your help again.  I have a question
2016-07-14T01:00:23Z rumbler31: nm, i figured it out
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2016-07-14T01:01:50Z rumbler31: this seems to do what i want for now
2016-07-14T01:01:51Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320404#3
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2016-07-14T01:17:57Z Bike: rumbler31: pillton was right, by the way, make- is conventionally a function
2016-07-14T01:19:10Z rumbler31: is there any reason why the associated stream reader/writer operations shouldn't be functions, intead of macroo?
2016-07-14T01:20:19Z rumbler31: i'm tired.  *macros?
2016-07-14T01:20:26Z rumbler31: *methods?
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2016-07-14T01:27:42Z Bike: what, you mean like binary-reader here?
2016-07-14T01:33:29Z rumbler31: yes
2016-07-14T01:33:51Z rumbler31: i was thinking it would end up being named something like test-binary-reader and test-binary-writer
2016-07-14T01:33:52Z rumbler31: or
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2016-07-14T01:34:07Z rumbler31: it could be methods on the new type
2016-07-14T01:34:38Z rumbler31: actually that doesn't make sense, because for reader i won't have an instance of the class yet.  for writer, maybe a method
2016-07-14T01:34:42Z rocx: ey. think i could try figuring out why i'm getting an unbound variable error on this function? https://p.iotek.org/ld7.lisp
2016-07-14T01:34:44Z Bike: i mean, you already have it as a function? i don't understand.
2016-07-14T01:35:29Z rumbler31: i don't know, I'm probably thinking about it too hard
2016-07-14T01:35:33Z Bike: rocx: i get no such error locally
2016-07-14T01:35:49Z rocx: Bike: SBCL?
2016-07-14T01:35:56Z Bike: yes
2016-07-14T01:36:16Z rocx: what the heck? then it seems to be having this issue only in slime.
2016-07-14T01:36:24Z Bike: i am using slime.
2016-07-14T01:36:38Z Bike: maybe you had a typo?
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2016-07-14T01:38:37Z rocx: don't know how i would since that's the exact same thing i pasted into what became that link.
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2016-07-14T01:41:04Z rocx: the problem just happens when I try to evaluate that expression.
2016-07-14T01:41:27Z jason_m: rocx: what command are you using to do that?
2016-07-14T01:41:40Z rocx: C-c C-e at the end of the function in a buffer.
2016-07-14T01:42:03Z rocx: thought those got overridden by the slime versions since slime traces come up in their own when i do that.
2016-07-14T01:42:27Z Bike: try it in the repl.
2016-07-14T01:42:46Z rocx: what the-
2016-07-14T01:43:21Z jason_m: and what happens if you compile it, C-c C-c ?
2016-07-14T01:44:08Z rocx: no hitch when i paste it into the REPL.
2016-07-14T01:44:26Z rocx: jason_m: when compiling, it said completed and three notes.
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2016-07-14T01:45:41Z jason_m: rocx: one of them probably a redefinition warning? anything interesting in the other two notes?
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2016-07-14T01:46:10Z rocx: oh yeah, definitely a redefinition warning. i tend to ignore those. but it says "note: deleting unreachable code".
2016-07-14T01:46:17Z rocx: on some (string) calls.
2016-07-14T01:48:38Z jason_m: rocx: you might have a typo, you are not comparing the length of elt-symb to anything.  that i believe causes your (let* ...) to never be evaluated
2016-07-14T01:48:49Z jason_m: that's probably not your original problem, but something to take a look at
2016-07-14T01:49:19Z rocx: the reason that part's there is to make the function return nil if elt-name or elt-symb is less than two characters long.
2016-07-14T01:49:40Z rocx: then in the else part, that's where the let* happens. i'll check that out.
2016-07-14T01:49:43Z jason_m: then you probably need to add another 2 in there
2016-07-14T01:49:55Z jason_m: because as it stands, your or will always be true
2016-07-14T01:50:07Z rocx: okay yeah no issue getting rid of that if.
2016-07-14T01:50:15Z rocx: i take that back.
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2016-07-14T01:51:16Z jason_m: the second form in your or, (< (length elt-symb)) should probably be (< (length elt-symb) 2)
2016-07-14T01:51:49Z rocx: oh cripes i forgot what to compare it to.
2016-07-14T01:51:50Z jason_m: (< x) is allowed and evaluates to true.  so the compiler is realizing that and determining that the entire else branch of your if form is unreachable
2016-07-14T01:51:59Z rocx: you're right.
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2016-07-14T01:53:09Z jason_m: others may opine on style, but when one of your if/else branches is always nil, it may be easier to read if you use a when or unless form
2016-07-14T01:54:03Z rocx: yeah this is quite a mess.
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2016-07-14T01:54:27Z jason_m: as for your original issue, the unbound symbol when evaluating the defun, i don't do much evaluating, i do much more C-c C-c'ing.  But I wonder if something is messed up with packages?
2016-07-14T01:54:56Z rocx: heh. not using packages in CL right now. haven't gotten quicklisp installed yet.
2016-07-14T01:55:27Z Xach: packages are an integral part of CL.
2016-07-14T01:55:30Z Xach: you can't not use them.
2016-07-14T01:55:32Z jason_m: well there is no getting around packages.  but i guess that means you're doing eveything in the cl-user package
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2016-07-14T01:55:53Z rpg: I think the confusion comes from the use of the term "package" for what other languages call "namespace"
2016-07-14T01:56:15Z Xach: quicklisp provides the source code of projects, which are organized into one or more systems. projects almost always define additional packages.
2016-07-14T01:56:16Z rocx: rpg: that's not really the confusing part for me. it's mainly how to be able to work around/with these things.
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2016-07-14T01:56:55Z rpg: packages ARE confusing. There's a short article that explains them reasonably well .... is that the one by Erann Gat, anyone?
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2016-07-14T01:57:48Z rocx: the complete idiot's guide to common lisp pacakges? yeah that's what explained the packages = namespace tidbit. it's the whole interning/uninterning/symbol part that throws me for a loop.
2016-07-14T01:58:01Z rocx: mainly because i'm finally just starting to make use of common lisp.
2016-07-14T02:00:41Z rocx: it'd be kind of nice if there was a successful attempt of consolidating, explaining and documenting common lisp for beginners.
2016-07-14T02:00:42Z rpg: rocx: You probably don't need to worry about interning and uninterning. That's mostly an issue if you are doing symbolic computing.
2016-07-14T02:00:49Z rocx: the CLHS only goes so far.
2016-07-14T02:01:02Z rocx: s/the CLHS/my brain/
2016-07-14T02:01:11Z rpg: rocx: Probably the only thing you need to think about is writing the DEFPACKAGE form.
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2016-07-14T02:03:49Z jason_m: in one of the earlier CL programs i wrote, i used symbols has keys in a hashtable.  i tried to look something up from a function in a different package.  and then i learned some things about symbols and packages :)
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2016-07-14T02:05:45Z rocx: how long have you been doing CL?
2016-07-14T02:07:17Z rpg: rocx: As long as it's been a thing!
2016-07-14T02:07:18Z jasom: rocx packages are mappings from strings to symbols
2016-07-14T02:07:33Z jasom: that's pretty much all there is to packages.
2016-07-14T02:08:16Z rpg: jasom: Packages have other attributes like internal and external symbols
2016-07-14T02:08:28Z rocx: rpg: were you one of those aliens that helped us understand the concept of stacking blocks so the pyramids could be built?
2016-07-14T02:08:28Z jasom: rpg: true
2016-07-14T02:09:11Z jasom: 1984 was when CLtL1 came out, that's probably the best date for the beginning of CL
2016-07-14T02:09:15Z rpg: rocx: Not quite that much of a founder, but I got my Ph. D. in 1991.
2016-07-14T02:09:32Z Xach: the complete idiot's guide to packages is not good.
2016-07-14T02:09:34Z rocx: sheesh. and here i am going for my bachelors now, discovering this lost art.
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2016-07-14T02:09:45Z Xach: the gigamonkeys explanation is good.
2016-07-14T02:09:58Z rpg: Xach: Is that in PCL, or freestanding?
2016-07-14T02:10:06Z Xach: it's a chapter in pcl
2016-07-14T02:10:35Z jasom: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html (though read chapter 4 first)
2016-07-14T02:10:51Z rpg: If you are just getting started, it's quite possible to do a bunch of hacking just in CL-USER. Packages become unavoidable when you start using other people's libraries.
2016-07-14T02:10:55Z Xach: the idiot's guide refers to obsolete package terminology that was deleted after cltl1. and overall treats packages with a "gee, aren't these awful" mentality that I think is harmful.
2016-07-14T02:11:46Z rpg: I had to learn before gigamonkeys' great book, so probably I'm a bad recommender.
2016-07-14T02:11:46Z Xach: you can write an effective mimic of the package system with just a few pages of code, and i did that. i'd love to turn it into a tutorial so you can build good intuition. no time though. :~(
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2016-07-14T02:12:22Z rpg: I do like the idea of scoped packages, but not enough to damn all my code to being non-standard.
2016-07-14T02:12:54Z Xach: i think package-local nicknames will happen
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2016-07-14T02:13:45Z rpg: That's the most important part of it.  I am not as scorching on packages, but I do think that global nicknames was dumb.
2016-07-14T02:14:04Z jasom: I woud rather that readtables included a hook for handling tokens, as that would make package-local nicknames implementable as a library.
2016-07-14T02:15:06Z Xach: i think something that touches fewer internals has a better likelihood of happening
2016-07-14T02:16:09Z jasom: I know, but I don't like the idea of a single-purpose implementation when there's a simple, more general, solution.
2016-07-14T02:16:36Z rpg: jasom: remember that handling tokens is an *extremely* inner-loop thing to do. Might not be a happy thing to make it hookable
2016-07-14T02:16:53Z jasom: and nicknames are not the only issue I've run into when using the interning reader.
2016-07-14T02:17:56Z jasom: rpg: with the exception of libraries that use readtables to implement custom parsers, little performance sensitive code is using the reader at all.  Compilation will dominate over read-time in most implementations.
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2016-07-14T02:21:15Z Xach: it only takes one paying customer with weird needs to change perspectives like that
2016-07-14T02:21:36Z Xach: like one having lots of performance sensitive code where the reader is the bottleneck
2016-07-14T02:23:10Z rpg: I could imagine applications like a theorem-prover (e.g., PVS), where that is a thing.
2016-07-14T02:27:12Z rpg: I still think if you wanted to deviate that far from the standard syntax, you might be better off just writing your own reader.
2016-07-14T02:27:23Z pierpa: Paul Graham chose Clisp over Allegro for his webstore because Clisp was faster at I/O. So obviously for someone speed of READ matters
2016-07-14T02:28:03Z rpg: pierpa: Note that it's possible (or even likely) that he wasn't using READ.
2016-07-14T02:28:22Z pierpa: from what I understand, he was
2016-07-14T02:28:26Z rpg: pierpa: READ can be *extremely* inefficient.  If you know what you are parsing, you are much better off doing it yourself.
2016-07-14T02:28:59Z rpg: I learned the hard way how expensive it can be to delegate parsing to READ, especially if you have large amounts of numerical data.
2016-07-14T02:31:28Z jasom: there's already a per-character overhead, so I would be surprised if a per-token overhead of a single symbol caused problems.  Even if this were the case, you could have a fast-path that uses an open-coded version of the default behavior protected behind a single pointer check
2016-07-14T02:31:46Z jasom: s/single symbol/single function call/
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2016-07-14T02:34:01Z jasom: rpg: again you say "write your own reader" but there's not an efficient way to replace the reader; sure you can set every single character to be a dispatching macro character to your reader, but that is a huge table if you want to support all code-points in a unicode lisp
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2016-07-14T02:34:37Z jasom: ~1GB overhead on sbcl for doing that
2016-07-14T02:34:46Z pierpa: you write a MY-READ function
2016-07-14T02:35:05Z pierpa: the algorithm is in the clhs
2016-07-14T02:35:06Z jasom: pierpa: and then a my-load a my-compile, and modify asdf to hook into all of that?
2016-07-14T02:35:10Z pierpa: is a page of code
2016-07-14T02:35:34Z pierpa: what's the problem?
2016-07-14T02:35:40Z rpg: jasom: I think you write a reader and translate your code to standard CL. At least that's possible.
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2016-07-14T02:36:08Z rpg: Anyway, it's a neat idea, but I don't think it's going to come to pass. But good luck to you; I'd be interested to see if it works out.
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2016-07-14T02:36:32Z rpg: Selling all the implementations on a change to readtables seems like a tall order.  We can't even get named readtables!
2016-07-14T02:36:36Z rpg is now known as rpg[Away]
2016-07-14T02:36:59Z pierpa: we couldn't get unified external-formats :(
2016-07-14T02:37:10Z pierpa: which utterly trivial in comparison
2016-07-14T02:37:14Z pierpa: *which is
2016-07-14T02:37:16Z jasom agrees with rpg and Xach on the difficulty of getting implementations to change stuff.
2016-07-14T02:37:45Z mordocai: When approximately was quicklisp first released to the public? Want to mention it in my presenation. Xach
2016-07-14T02:37:55Z Xach: mordocai: october 2010
2016-07-14T02:38:02Z Xach: mordocai: at ilc in reno
2016-07-14T02:38:09Z Xach: or shortly after
2016-07-14T02:38:14Z mordocai: Thanks!
2016-07-14T02:38:53Z Xach: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2010/10/quicklisp-beta-now-available.html
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2016-07-14T02:40:47Z mordocai: excellent
2016-07-14T02:41:49Z jasom: Pascal Bourguignon wrote a complete reader replacement that supports hooks for tokenization.  I used it to try an idea I had that would be an alternative to package-local nicknames.  It was easy and pleasant to use.  I can't speak to performance though.
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2016-07-14T02:43:25Z jasom: another interesting thing about packages is that it's not possible to create anonymous packages (i.e. without polluting a global namespace).  I think that might be the only object in CL for which that is true, but I'm not sure.
2016-07-14T02:47:16Z pierpa: what would you use an anonymous package for?
2016-07-14T02:49:01Z Zhivago: You wouldn't.
2016-07-14T02:49:14Z Zhivago: But what would make sense is local package visibility.
2016-07-14T02:49:31Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-14T02:49:42Z Zhivago: e.g., from the context of package A, package B means X, but from the context of package D, package B means Y.
2016-07-14T02:50:12Z jasom: pierpa: you could bind *package* to it
2016-07-14T02:50:39Z pierpa: ach, for reading. ok. Good use case.
2016-07-14T02:51:11Z fugue: What's the easiest way to make (A B) into ((A) (B))
2016-07-14T02:51:41Z jasom: I've seen temporary packages used in several places and usually they name it something like foo-temp where foo is the system.
2016-07-14T02:52:02Z Bike: fugue: mapcar #'list
2016-07-14T02:52:31Z jasom: it's not really a big deal, and it's always possible to generate a new package name, and not possible to accidentally make a package with the same name as a preexisting package, but it's just an interesting little wart
2016-07-14T02:52:55Z pierpa: what about gc?
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2016-07-14T02:53:29Z jasom: pierpa: what about it?
2016-07-14T02:53:34Z pierpa: an anonymous package when should be collected?
2016-07-14T02:53:48Z jasom: pierpa: when there are no more references to it
2016-07-14T02:53:50Z pierpa: (if ever)
2016-07-14T02:54:07Z pierpa: the symbols in the package could be referenced
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2016-07-14T02:54:18Z jasom: pierpa: I would assume that in this case a symbol whos home package were an anonymous package would count as a reference
2016-07-14T02:54:35Z jasom: but other symbols visible in the package wouldn't need to count
2016-07-14T02:54:55Z pierpa: the point of packages is that they hold symbols even is nobody references them
2016-07-14T02:55:07Z rocx: okay think i got this function fixed. thanks for pointing out how silly i've done it
2016-07-14T02:55:24Z Bike: as is, packages are always referenced by the global name binding. with anonymous packages, some wouldn't be, so they'd be GCd same as any other object. there's nothing conceptually difficult.
2016-07-14T02:55:36Z mordocai: Is there a handy lisp of "Common lisp in production" somewhere?
2016-07-14T02:55:47Z mordocai: As in active in production now
2016-07-14T02:56:01Z pierpa: ?
2016-07-14T02:56:10Z jasom: mordocai: I think you mean "handy list"?
2016-07-14T02:56:18Z mordocai: Sure do jasom
2016-07-14T02:56:25Z pierpa: ah
2016-07-14T02:56:39Z fugue: Bike: (print result) gives me (A B), (mapcar  #'list result), printed result after, same (A B)
2016-07-14T02:56:43Z fugue: is my syntax correct?
2016-07-14T02:56:55Z Bike: mapcar returns a new list, of co urse
2016-07-14T02:56:56Z mordocai: Only ones I know off the top of my head are grammarly and https://turtl.it/
2016-07-14T02:57:03Z jasom: mordocai: not really; each commercial vendor has a list of customer success stories, and there are some out-of-date cliki pages for some of the non commercial implementations
2016-07-14T02:57:09Z Bike: if you want to change the variable, you would do (setf result (mapcar #'list result))
2016-07-14T02:57:37Z fugue: Bike: of course
2016-07-14T02:57:40Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/success-stories/index.html http://franz.com/success/
2016-07-14T02:57:43Z fugue: that makes sense :)
2016-07-14T02:58:52Z jasom: fugue: if you want to mutate the actual list in-place you can do so with mapl; that's not typically recommended though
2016-07-14T02:59:20Z pierpa: probably he wants MAP-INTO
2016-07-14T02:59:38Z pierpa: clhs map-into
2016-07-14T02:59:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map_in.htm
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2016-07-14T03:00:31Z jasom: mordocai: https://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ <-- this lists people hiring for lisp, which tends to imply they are using it too
2016-07-14T03:01:02Z rme: But note that mapl mustn't modify the cdr-chain of the list.
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2016-07-14T03:01:40Z rocx: doesn't look like many jobs considering the gap between posts.
2016-07-14T03:01:43Z jasom: right, but it's fine for modifying the CARs, though map-into is the correct thing to use here
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2016-07-14T03:02:23Z rme: I just mention it because a difference between how ccl and sbcl do mapl/maplist caused a bug that took me a long time to find.
2016-07-14T03:02:46Z pierpa: interesting
2016-07-14T03:04:09Z mordocai: rocx: There aren't but that's the usual story with less popular languages
2016-07-14T03:04:20Z BRFennPocock: I wasn't sure if I could mention our Co, but yeah, MCNA is apparently hiring on that board :-)
2016-07-14T03:04:38Z rocx: make lisp great again.
2016-07-14T03:04:43Z rocx: ...that isn't clojure.
2016-07-14T03:04:47Z pierpa: we lost the train
2016-07-14T03:06:26Z mordocai: BRFennPocock: Wow, your company isn't messing around with the requirements. 8+ years of experience and a bachelors/masters wanted.
2016-07-14T03:06:47Z BRFennPocock: mordocai:  Although (weird) our job posting only mentions Clojure and fails to mention CL. And the listing I saw for that job said "degree would be nice."
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2016-07-14T03:07:07Z rocx: "swift dev wanted. requires 5 years of experience and needs to have worked at NASA prior to this job."
2016-07-14T03:07:14Z BRFennPocock: It's also been edited by someone who thought "clojure script" was spelled like that.
2016-07-14T03:07:28Z mordocai: Lol yeah. Probably got meddled with by the HR people
2016-07-14T03:08:06Z rme: I worked at NASA, so that's not saying much.
2016-07-14T03:08:10Z BRFennPocock: We only just got one of those. "Talent Manager." I can't help but think that name implies something like "regulator" or "reducer."
2016-07-14T03:08:12Z fugue: I could use some help with this problem: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320412 -- I'm trying to create combinations of 2 separate lists (of their indexes only)
2016-07-14T03:08:16Z fugue: Please.
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2016-07-14T03:09:13Z Bike: didn't beach walk you through it?
2016-07-14T03:09:57Z fugue: He helped with the combinations, which I've made a huge progress. I'm actually at the final point of combining the lists using the permutation
2016-07-14T03:10:06Z fugue: Err combinations*
2016-07-14T03:11:16Z Bike: okay, well, first i would do it just with the individual lists. like, ((a) (b) (c)) and ((r r r) ...).
2016-07-14T03:11:55Z fugue: My first question: is there a way to iterate both lists at the same time? (we can be assured they have the same # of elements)
2016-07-14T03:12:34Z Bike: well, you don't really want to take one element at a time from both, you want to loop over the whole of one list for each iteration of the other.
2016-07-14T03:14:12Z fugue: Thats the thing, its ((A) (B)) and ((C Z) (D Y)) should become ( (A (C)) (A (Z)) (B (D)) (B (Y)))
2016-07-14T03:14:37Z jason_m: fugue: mapcar should do the trick
2016-07-14T03:14:49Z Bike: sure. so just do a nested mapcar or loop.
2016-07-14T03:15:16Z Bike: and reduce the problem first. (a) and (c z).
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2016-07-14T03:18:15Z fugue: since mapcar returns a list, is there a way I can keep appending to one?
2016-07-14T03:18:25Z H4ns: mapcan
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2016-07-14T03:50:56Z fugue: Strange, I have one = (A) two = (B C), I run (mapcar #'list one two) and it returns ( (A B) )
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2016-07-14T03:53:03Z H4ns: fugue: why is that strange?  what would you expect?  did you read the documentation on mapcar?
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2016-07-14T03:58:37Z fugue: Looks like it runs out after the first run
2016-07-14T03:59:08Z fugue: Runs out of elements since there are 1 and 2
2016-07-14T03:59:30Z H4ns: fugue: "run" is not a good verb to use here.  but yes, map calls the function as long as the shortest sequence has elements.
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2016-07-14T05:14:55Z fugue: I've got a list of lists I'm looping through (loop for item in myList do ( ... )) I need to append a symbol 'A to each list (item)
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2016-07-14T05:17:51Z fugue: nconc worked
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2016-07-14T05:49:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-14T09:37:51Z hjudt: H4ns: despite using an own usocket stream for drakma, limiting the read timeout to 10, i still have the problem that the thread hangs for a while when the remote machine is in a problematic state. luckily the thread terminates after a while and does not hang indefinitely, but the timeout is not controllable. do you have any idea what i can do about this, except destroying the thread? i only get a
2016-07-14T09:37:57Z hjudt: "sb-sys:fd-stream for socket host:port" condition.
2016-07-14T09:39:03Z hjudt: maybe there is some way to check the usocket stream without drakma _if_ the problem is with drakma.
2016-07-14T09:39:51Z hjudt: of course, for this special case i could wait until the connection times out and not start any new requests to this host...
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2016-07-14T09:41:39Z H4ns: hjudt: "sb-sys:fd-stream for socket host:port" is not a condition, really.  also, when you say "terminates after a while", what do you mean exactly?
2016-07-14T09:42:40Z H4ns: hjudt: it is possible that drakma does not properly react when a read returns 0 bytes due to the timeout being triggered, but i'm not sure about that and i have no time to debug it myself.  can you do some more research as to what exactly is happening, or supply an isolated test case that demonstrates the problem?
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2016-07-14T09:46:02Z hjudt: it might be difficult to provide a proper test case. i believe the remote server is simply not responding (a java machine with an out-of-memory error problem). the connection might be possible, but nothing is received (i'm not sure about that). i will try to find out though if it is a problem with usocket or drakma, that will bring me one step further.
2016-07-14T09:46:50Z hjudt: the condition is of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-STREAM-ERROR, the message couldn't read from "sb-sys:fd-stream..."
2016-07-14T09:47:31Z H4ns: hjudt: ah, okay, and that condition is not properly aborting the request, or is it?
2016-07-14T09:47:37Z hjudt: the problem is i _have_ to deal with these cases
2016-07-14T09:47:43Z hjudt: it seems so, yes
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2016-07-14T09:48:21Z hjudt: well, it might abort it, but not "in time"
2016-07-14T09:48:30Z jdz: TRACE is a nice facility
2016-07-14T09:48:37Z hjudt: seems like 30 seconds or a minute later
2016-07-14T09:48:44Z H4ns: this is strange, because any unhandled condition would abort http-request
2016-07-14T09:48:54Z H4ns: yeah.  trace.  you may have an unrelated problem.
2016-07-14T09:49:33Z hjudt: i guess the condition happens later
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2016-07-14T10:03:20Z hjudt: the flexi stream is created successfully, the socket stays connected, but trace shows that http-request hangs somewhere. a minute or so later, the socket is closed and the condition is signaled.
2016-07-14T10:04:23Z hjudt: maybe there is another timeout for the stream that i can set
2016-07-14T10:06:11Z hjudt: looks like there is none
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2016-07-14T10:24:45Z hjudt: interestingly, if i create a socket with a timeout and use wait-for-input on that socket, netstat shows the socket does not timeout and stays connected.
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2016-07-14T10:27:38Z hjudt: yet i am still lucky that the stream times out after a while instead of hanging indefinitely. i will have to consider and handle this case in the design of my application, and as a hard issue, finally kill the thread if it is over a certain time limit.
2016-07-14T10:28:13Z hjudt: s/issue/measure/
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2016-07-14T10:55:29Z H4ns: you could also use ccl for its deadline support
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2016-07-14T11:17:14Z scymtym: in sbcl, you can get deadlines for i/o-operations (and some other operations) like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320437 . also, IIRC, 60 seconds is the time SBCL waits for threads to exit when terminating.
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2016-07-14T11:18:03Z H4ns: nice, that should probably work with drakma as well, then.
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2016-07-14T11:19:08Z scymtym: probably, i didn't try it, though
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2016-07-14T11:22:33Z hjudt: scymtym: thanks for this very useful hint, i'll look into it
2016-07-14T11:22:59Z scymtym: hjudt: sure, i hope it works for you
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2016-07-14T11:26:08Z hjudt: yes, from a quick test it does ;-) simply wrapping it around http-request works nicely.
2016-07-14T11:26:47Z H4ns: sounds to me as if it would not be too hard to build this into drakma
2016-07-14T11:27:19Z H4ns: hjudt: so if you'd like to send a pr for that, i'll gladly review and accept it.
2016-07-14T11:28:19Z hjudt: i will try. i need to delve a bit deeper into drakma code for that and also watch out for those compiler instructions.
2016-07-14T11:28:32Z hjudt: hints
2016-07-14T11:29:41Z hjudt: and read up what exactly with-deadline does
2016-07-14T11:30:11Z hjudt: and see if this goes with the semantics of the drakma options
2016-07-14T11:37:47Z sjl: is roswell's 'ros list versions' broken for anyone else? http://paste.stevelosh.com/578777dddefbd40007a9aadc
2016-07-14T11:37:51Z sjl: OS X and homebrew here
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2016-07-14T13:59:20Z dim: stfoy33
2016-07-14T14:00:46Z jdz: recorded!
2016-07-14T14:00:57Z jdz: pls give the username and service as well
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2016-07-14T15:09:49Z p_l: hjudt: have you checked cl-async's drakma port?
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2016-07-14T17:48:48Z drmeister: Should (directory "/**") produce something or signal an error?
2016-07-14T17:49:08Z dim: CCL produce something
2016-07-14T17:49:22Z dim: 20 items
2016-07-14T17:50:02Z drmeister: sbcl produces something.  ECL and Clasp signal an error.
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2016-07-14T17:51:30Z jasom:  drmeister that's not defined by the standard I think
2016-07-14T17:52:28Z jasom: there is no standard for representing physical pathnames as strings
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2016-07-14T17:54:11Z jasom: ";**" is therefore defined
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2016-07-14T17:58:19Z jasom: though it would actually be "**" not ;** as ;** is relative
2016-07-14T18:00:09Z jasom: drmeister: IIRC uiop defines a way for representing a subset of physical pathnames using a unix-like syntax
2016-07-14T18:00:21Z jasom: uiop:parse-unix-namestring or some-such
2016-07-14T18:00:55Z drmeister: The problem on ECL and Clasp was that "/**" treats "**" as the :NAME part of a pathname.
2016-07-14T18:01:05Z drmeister: "/**/" is what I wanted to use.
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2016-07-14T18:04:25Z jasom: also, if you care at all about windows, use only relative pathnames and uiop:merge-pathnames* in favor of cl:merge-pathnames.  See the documentation of uiop:merge-pathnames* for more information.
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2016-07-14T18:13:07Z drmeister: jasom: I'm diagnosing a problem in building quicklisp in clasp - so my questions are a little unfocused at the moment until I figure out what is going on.
2016-07-14T18:13:24Z drmeister: I think the problem is that I have the hostname "SYS" pointing to "/"
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2016-07-14T18:13:43Z drmeister: Does the "SYS" pathname have to be defined in Common Lisp?
2016-07-14T18:13:52Z drmeister: Hostname.
2016-07-14T18:13:56Z drmeister: Not pathname
2016-07-14T18:14:16Z XachX_: drmeister: it is reserved for owlet rations.
2016-07-14T18:14:31Z XachX_: Implementations
2016-07-14T18:15:14Z drmeister: XachX_:   "owlet rations"? Autocorrect gone horribly wrong?
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2016-07-14T18:15:40Z drmeister: Because that's a funny.
2016-07-14T18:17:01Z XachX_: Horribly
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2016-07-14T18:17:59Z drmeister: XachX_: Running clasp without access to a source tree  (probe-file "sys:") --> NIL
2016-07-14T18:18:31Z drmeister: And that's causing quicklisp (or asdf) to search to entire directory hierarchy.
2016-07-14T18:19:07Z drmeister: It looks like I need to set up some reasonable pathname translation for "sys:" to get things to work.    Does that sound right?
2016-07-14T18:23:05Z dim: "sys" is not a defined logical host [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
2016-07-14T18:23:10Z dim: yet Quicklisp works fine here
2016-07-14T18:23:12Z dim: CCL again
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2016-07-14T18:31:16Z jasom: drmeister: looks like you should signal a file-error rather than returning nil
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2016-07-14T18:34:18Z jasom: drmeister: what does (translate-logical-pathname "sys:") return?
2016-07-14T18:35:19Z drmeister: Good point - that's probably it.
2016-07-14T18:35:25Z drmeister: Checking...
2016-07-14T18:36:02Z drmeister: (translate-logical-pathname "sys:") --> #P"/"
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2016-07-14T18:55:56Z jasom: XachX_: I think I already asked you this before, but having automated tests that download and install quicklisp as part of what they do isn't a problem vis-a-vis load on your servers?
2016-07-14T18:56:18Z Xach: jasom: it's a problem in that i have to pay for data transfer.
2016-07-14T18:56:33Z Xach: jasom: the cost is low, but if everyone automated a quicklisp install, it would add up.
2016-07-14T18:56:54Z Xach: jasom: since i use amazon for serving files, load is not an issue, but cost could be in a theoretical future
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2016-07-14T19:08:18Z ywedanse: how to learn this ?
2016-07-14T19:08:25Z ywedanse: what steps? guide or book?
2016-07-14T19:08:29Z ywedanse: thanks
2016-07-14T19:08:38Z jasom: minion: tell ywedanse about pcl
2016-07-14T19:08:38Z minion: ywedanse: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2016-07-14T21:33:15Z jasom: hmm slime-compile-and-load-file appears to be compiling but not loading.  Any idea why?
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2016-07-14T22:01:05Z jasom: For some reason this doesn't load the file, but does compile: (slime-eval '(swank:compile-file-for-emacs "/Users/jmiller/foo.lisp" t))
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2016-07-14T22:01:16Z jasom: wheras C-c C-k with foo.lisp open will load the file
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2016-07-14T22:04:18Z jasom: ah, I found the issue; the loading is more complicated than I thought, and I was overriding slime-compilation-finished
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2016-07-14T22:06:38Z jasom: or rather I was throwing from slime-compilation-finished-hook in order to do a blocking compile.  However, the loading doesn't happen until *after* slime-compilation-finished-hook is called
2016-07-14T22:10:55Z jasom: switching to polling rather than throw/catch fixed the problem.
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2016-07-14T22:39:38Z dim: I use C-c C-l rather than C-c C-k myself
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2016-07-14T22:39:58Z dim: the fasl cache invalidation mechanism has not always been trustworthy for me
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2016-07-14T23:14:32Z trinque: given a function symbol, can I tell which module defines that symbol?
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2016-07-14T23:14:38Z trinque: in common lisp
2016-07-14T23:18:14Z Bike: by "module", you mean what?
2016-07-14T23:18:51Z ben_vulpes: trinque: `symbol-package`?
2016-07-14T23:19:49Z trinque: ohey! and yes!
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2016-07-14T23:21:57Z ben_vulpes: hiya :P
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2016-07-15T00:21:03Z lisp658: how do I get a sublist within a list where the sublist's first element is x?
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2016-07-15T00:24:13Z pillton: (member 2 (list 1 2 3 4)) => (2 3 4)
2016-07-15T00:26:51Z lisp658: I meant suppose a = ((x (a b c)) (y (d e f))). I want to get the second element of the main list's element where x is the 0th element. i.e. I want to get (a b c)
2016-07-15T00:29:29Z pillton: (member 'a '((x (a b c)) (y (d e f))) :key #'caadr) => ((x (a b c)) (y (d e f)))
2016-07-15T00:30:39Z pillton: I would recommend using (loop for sublist on list ...)
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2016-07-15T00:30:54Z jason_m: or (member 'x '((x (a b c)) (y (d e f))) :key #'car) gets the same thing if that's what you want
2016-07-15T00:31:35Z lisp658: both of those expressions return the whole list, I just want to get (a b c)
2016-07-15T00:32:22Z jason_m: (second (find 'x '((x (a b c)) (y (d e f))) :key #'car)) => (A B C)
2016-07-15T00:32:47Z lisp658: jason_m: thanks
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2016-07-15T00:33:13Z pillton is offended.
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2016-07-15T00:42:15Z lisp658: pillton: sorry.
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2016-07-15T00:53:30Z lisp658: (remove 'x '(a b c x d)) will return '(a b c d) right? so if I want to really update the list I would have to write (setf newlist (remove 'x '(a b c x d)))?
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2016-07-15T00:57:26Z jason_m: lisp658: That's correct.  Note that by default, remove will remove all occurrences of an item.
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2016-07-15T00:57:33Z jason_m: (remove 'x '(a x b c x d x)) => (A B C D)
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2016-07-15T00:58:35Z jason_m: you can use a :count keyword parameter and :from-end for finer control if you don't want that behavior
2016-07-15T00:59:11Z jason_m: (remove 'x '(a x b c x d x) :count 2 :from-end t) => (A X B C D)
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2016-07-15T01:42:04Z lisp658: how do I test if two lists are not equal?
2016-07-15T01:43:14Z |3b|: (not (equal ...)) ?
2016-07-15T01:43:32Z |3b|: possibly replacing the EQUAL with something else depending on which definition of equality you want
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2016-07-15T03:38:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-15T04:00:05Z dwchandler: God morgen, beach!
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2016-07-15T04:00:43Z beach: That would be, lessee, Gerdish? :)
2016-07-15T04:00:55Z beach: Or Sweman?
2016-07-15T04:01:04Z dwchandler: Nah, Norwegian
2016-07-15T04:01:29Z beach: Ah! OK.
2016-07-15T04:01:43Z dwchandler: God morgen allesammen!
2016-07-15T04:01:57Z dwchandler: literally, good morning all you fish
2016-07-15T04:02:02Z dwchandler: no, that's a lie
2016-07-15T04:05:45Z jasom: the lisp community has gotten big enough that there are now two people named Jason M. in #lisp
2016-07-15T04:06:02Z pillton: You just realised this now?
2016-07-15T04:06:20Z jasom: pillton: I think I saw jason_m once before, but I don't think we are often online at the same time
2016-07-15T04:06:42Z jasom: I'm on vacation, so keeping somewhat different hours
2016-07-15T04:07:27Z jasom: judging by IPs jason_m is only 2 hours away from me timezone wise though.
2016-07-15T04:07:41Z beach: jasom: Doing some traveling?
2016-07-15T04:08:11Z jasom: beach: sort-of (not leaving the US).
2016-07-15T04:08:34Z jasom: Logged 2800 miles of driving so far though.
2016-07-15T04:08:59Z beach: Yikes!
2016-07-15T04:09:48Z pillton: I can't remember what event made me realise that jasom and jasom_m were two different people. I had been operating on the wrong assumption for quite some time.
2016-07-15T04:10:03Z jasom: I live in California, and most of my extended family lives on the east-coast
2016-07-15T04:10:30Z jasom: My wife has a cousin in Denver, and my sister is in Kansas, so we visited them on the way across the country
2016-07-15T04:10:31Z beach: jasom: It was the "driving" part I was reacting to.  Not the distance.
2016-07-15T04:11:04Z jason_m: sorry for the confusion!
2016-07-15T04:11:07Z jasom: beach: turns out with 6 people in the car, we get considrably better PMPG than flying
2016-07-15T04:11:28Z beach: What is PMPG?
2016-07-15T04:11:36Z jasom: beach: passenger miles per gallon
2016-07-15T04:11:42Z beach: I see.
2016-07-15T04:11:57Z beach: No trains I take it?
2016-07-15T04:12:16Z Bike: well, US :p
2016-07-15T04:12:18Z jasom: beach: this isn't Europe.  Trains cost as much as flying and are less reliable
2016-07-15T04:12:38Z jasom: in the northeast US, trains are actually quite good, but everywhere else they are terrible
2016-07-15T04:12:53Z pillton: jason_m: So you should be. How dare you have a similar name. Whilst we are at it... the surname Smith is banned henceforth.
2016-07-15T04:13:01Z beach: jasom: Yeah, I remember.  I lived in Baltimore for a few years.
2016-07-15T04:13:04Z jasom: I had a friend regularly get in 22 hours late on a 300 mile trip in California
2016-07-15T04:13:24Z jasom: one time they got stuck behind yesterdays train (were only 2 hours late that time)
2016-07-15T04:14:15Z jasom: in college my e-mail was jason.m.miller.3 as there were already 3 other people named jason m miller
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2016-07-15T04:14:59Z jason_m: jasom: I knew a Mike Smith in college, I think his email was something like mike.smith27
2016-07-15T04:15:01Z beach: jasom: I am just rubbing it in.  They are right now building a high(er) speed rail from Paris all the way to the Spanish border.  Paris will be 2 hours from Bordeaux, which is as close as it takes for a typical Paris commuter to get to work.
2016-07-15T04:15:40Z pillton: 4 hours in transit a day!
2016-07-15T04:15:53Z beach: Some people do that, yes.
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2016-07-15T04:16:13Z pillton: Oh man. Bring on the machines.
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2016-07-15T04:16:26Z pillton: What a waste of consciousness.
2016-07-15T04:16:40Z beach: pillton: But the distance between Bordeaux and Paris is 600km so 2 hours is not bad.
2016-07-15T04:16:47Z beach: I totally agree.
2016-07-15T04:17:28Z jasom: I currently am applying for a position that would give me a 1.5 hour commute via car :(
2016-07-15T04:17:48Z beach: Wow!
2016-07-15T04:18:16Z jasom: right now it's 15 minutes by bicycle
2016-07-15T04:18:31Z beach: My wife has a 5 second commute from the bedroom.
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2016-07-15T04:20:15Z beach: jasom: Maybe it's time to move to Europe for a while.
2016-07-15T04:20:20Z jasom: for any new job, I'd like to be physically present for at least a couple months.  I'm not proactive enough about getting to know people, so face-to-face contact helps me with that.
2016-07-15T04:20:57Z jasom: beach: oh, my wife would love to do that.  She has friends in France and Austria, so pretty much anywhere in western Europe would put her close to people she knows
2016-07-15T04:21:28Z beach: jasom: Why not.  I vote for Bordeaux.  It's a great place nowadays.
2016-07-15T04:22:02Z beach: moore33 can confirm! :)
2016-07-15T04:24:45Z jasom: I gave up trying to learn french when I discovered that La femme marche and Les femmes marchent are homophonous.  I already hate english spelling and there are so many phonetically spelled languages out there to choose from
2016-07-15T04:25:15Z Bike: spain then. no problem
2016-07-15T04:25:22Z beach: Not quite.  "la" and "les" don't sound the same.
2016-07-15T04:25:28Z beach: But I know what you mean.
2016-07-15T04:27:01Z beach: It is nearly impossible to distinguish between "la tolérance" and "l'intolérance" and they are opposites.
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2016-07-15T04:33:50Z beach: Recently I decided that the only way I was going to get *some* code out there before my time is up was to extract smaller libraries from my bigger projects.  Libraries such as Acclimation, Clump, and Cluffer are the result of that.  Now I need to learn to implement simple, temporary solutions to design problems, rather than waiting until I have figured out the perfect ones.
2016-07-15T04:34:27Z beach: I guess this is "worse is better" all over again.
2016-07-15T04:36:08Z pillton: Well, console yourself with the fact that our current instance of civilisation requires us to waste a great deal time.
2016-07-15T04:36:40Z pillton: Not to mention, this crappy contraption our minds are stuck in.
2016-07-15T04:38:04Z Bike: yeah, yeah, call back when you can make a dialysis machine that fits in your hand
2016-07-15T04:39:35Z Bike: i don't think small libraries are bad. and it's been a while since i read the worse is better essay but i don't think the point was that you should spend forever trying to anticipate every possible problem
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2016-07-15T04:40:38Z beach: Just to be clear, there is nothing particular wrong with me, other than my statistical remaining life expectancy is only about 20 years or so, and my current projects will take longer than that to finish.
2016-07-15T04:41:01Z Bike: it is nonetheless worrying when you refer to your varying imminent death, heh
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2016-07-15T04:41:18Z beach: Sorry.  Just planning ahead.
2016-07-15T04:41:30Z pillton: Yeah. I think worrying about dependencies between "components" is more useful.
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2016-07-15T04:42:52Z beach: pillton: I don't have great hopes for "civilization" as a whole, but I think it is possible to make significant improvements to computing.
2016-07-15T04:44:23Z pillton: I dunno. All these ethics experts are going to stop us from transcending. Clearly, they don't watch the news.
2016-07-15T04:46:20Z Zhivago: It's going to be hard to stop people from teaching computers to be them once the computational power required to do so is cheap.
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2016-07-15T04:47:35Z beach: Zhivago: "to be them"?
2016-07-15T04:47:48Z Zhivago: Sure.
2016-07-15T04:47:56Z beach: I don't understand what it means.
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2016-07-15T04:48:08Z Zhivago: Imagine that you taught a computer to be you.
2016-07-15T04:48:19Z beach: Oh, I see.
2016-07-15T04:50:00Z pillton: Is there a reason why SETF introduces new bindings for constant value forms?
2016-07-15T04:50:11Z Bike: what do you mean?
2016-07-15T04:50:20Z pillton: It stops you from writing compiler macros for (setf functions).
2016-07-15T04:50:32Z Bike: oh, like the setf expansions?
2016-07-15T04:50:37Z pillton: Yeah.
2016-07-15T04:50:41Z pillton: Sorry.
2016-07-15T04:50:54Z Zhivago: Beach: Then you could at least die happy in the knowledge that there will be someone to carry on your work. :)
2016-07-15T04:50:59Z ggole: Computation power doesn't seem like the only obstacle there...
2016-07-15T04:51:03Z Bike: because those bindings are part of how setf expansions are defined. also constantp is kinda crappy
2016-07-15T04:51:41Z Bike: ggole: jaja it's cool, the nervous system is basically a homogenuous mass and it can work independently of the rest of the body. no problem
2016-07-15T04:52:21Z Bike: pillton: of course you could just define the setf expansion yourself and that gives you a lot of control
2016-07-15T04:52:40Z Zhivago: ggole: Well, medical nanobots might help, but I expect with enough observation time you could build a good predictive model without.
2016-07-15T04:52:57Z pillton: Bike: No you have to write a new setf macro. You can't customise that behaviour.
2016-07-15T04:54:04Z Zhivago: Beach: You could record the remainder of your life and use that to train a computer post-mortem, in the worst case.
2016-07-15T04:54:07Z Bike: what are you trying to do exactly? i mean, i don't think eliding a binding would have much performance impact, like if it's just (let ((x 4)) ...one use of x...) the compiler is probably smart enough.
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2016-07-15T04:55:40Z pillton: Well, lets say you automatically coerce a numerical value to a different class.
2016-07-15T04:56:01Z ggole: Seems like that would miss a lot of important internal stuff, early memories, etc
2016-07-15T04:56:24Z pillton: You don't want this to happen when you know the value is of the correct type.
2016-07-15T04:56:31Z Zhivago: ggole: Most people seem to get by without those without much difficulty.
2016-07-15T04:56:45Z Bike: lol
2016-07-15T04:57:24Z Zhivago: You'd probably want to coerce it to the right class irrespective of type, since class describes implementation.
2016-07-15T04:57:25Z Bike: pillton: Okay so, you have something like (setf (foo ...) 4), and the setf foo function does a (my-coerce new-value 'number) that you would like to elide? is that what you mean?
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2016-07-15T04:57:45Z Zhivago: The alternative being to dispatch to another method for the other class.
2016-07-15T04:57:57Z pillton: Bike: Yeah.
2016-07-15T04:58:03Z Zhivago: Making it an exciting cost-of-dispatch vs. cost-of-coersion problem.
2016-07-15T04:58:25Z pillton: Bike: This scenario https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1398785 consed about 44G on one of my programs.
2016-07-15T04:58:31Z Bike: Maybe you can have your setf function be inlined and put an appropriate compiler macro on my-coerce?
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2016-07-15T05:00:18Z Bike: seems like a hard bug, and pkhuong said it might not always be good to "fix"
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2016-07-15T05:00:54Z pillton: Hence the compiler macro.
2016-07-15T05:01:42Z pillton: The example is largely irrelevant. SETF doesn't allow me to do it. Did the god group under specify or is it not specified for a reason?
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2016-07-15T05:02:31Z Bike: if anything it would be overspecified, since you're talking about just writing the macroexpansion yourself
2016-07-15T05:03:14Z pillton: I don't find it satisfactory because that requires knowing the existence of my-setf.
2016-07-15T05:03:29Z Bike: find what satisfactory?
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2016-07-15T05:03:45Z pillton: Having to write a different setf.
2016-07-15T05:04:37Z Bike: No, I meant, you're talking about wanting setf to be defined such that instead of defining a setf expander with its five values, you just define a macroexpansion yourself?
2016-07-15T05:06:09Z pillton: Oh. I see. You are right. Preserving constantness is a hack.
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2016-07-15T05:10:26Z pillton: I'll have to get this issue added to beach's list.
2016-07-15T05:11:19Z beach: My list of what?
2016-07-15T05:11:33Z pillton: Things that need addressing.
2016-07-15T05:11:38Z Bike: i think i'm lost.
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2016-07-15T06:26:57Z jsgrant: mordocai: If up, how'd the meetup go? Unexpected family emergency cameup halfway through the day, that pushed me back two plus hours ... would have gotten there at near 9, figured it wasn't worth it at that point. :^/
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2016-07-15T07:13:47Z PuercoPop: Am I missremembering or was there something akin to c-source-file in cffi so that it compiles a c file when building a system? (Similar to https://github.com/nikodemus/linedit/blob/master/linedit.asd#L78)
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2016-07-15T07:15:05Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: I think groveller does something like that
2016-07-15T07:15:21Z jackdaniel: (afair it is a subsystem of cffi)
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2016-07-15T07:16:40Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: I though groveler is only for extracting constants and some platform dependent information (which involves calling the c compiler)
2016-07-15T07:17:08Z jackdaniel: oh, OK
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2016-07-15T07:17:21Z jackdaniel: didn't use it, just noted the fact that it calls C compiler
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2016-07-15T07:45:45Z John[Lisbeth]: How are vectors implemented in common lisp?
2016-07-15T07:45:57Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm curious about their datastructure.
2016-07-15T07:46:11Z John[Lisbeth]: I am also curious about alternative versions of the standard vector.
2016-07-15T07:46:45Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: The standard doesn't say.  Most implementation will implement vectors as consecutive cells in memory.
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2016-07-15T07:47:18Z John[Lisbeth]: Are they implemented with linked lists?
2016-07-15T07:47:39Z beach: No, like I said, as consecutive memory locations.
2016-07-15T07:47:48Z beach: Access is O(1).
2016-07-15T07:47:58Z beach: Add an offset and dereference.
2016-07-15T07:48:35Z John[Lisbeth]: A better question to ask I think would be how an array is implemented
2016-07-15T07:48:45Z beach: Same thing.
2016-07-15T07:48:54Z beach: Sequence of memory cells.
2016-07-15T07:49:24Z beach: Access is O(d) where d is the number of dimensions, because you have to compute an offset from d numbers.
2016-07-15T07:49:51Z John[Lisbeth]: thanks
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2016-07-15T08:12:06Z John[Lisbeth]: why can't I (disassemble '#(1 2 3)) ?
2016-07-15T08:12:32Z beach: clhs disassemble
2016-07-15T08:12:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_disass.htm
2016-07-15T08:12:47Z beach: "fn---an extended function designator or a lambda expression."
2016-07-15T08:12:56Z John[Lisbeth]: The spec is not really a good peice of documentation to an inexperienced programmer.
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2016-07-15T08:13:19Z Bike: Regardless, it does specifically say why you can't (disassemble #(1 2 3)).
2016-07-15T08:14:04Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: that's why people many times directed you at pcl (which you refuse to read prefering asking basic question on the channel)
2016-07-15T08:14:17Z Bike: oh, did he really?
2016-07-15T08:14:39Z jackdaniel: yes, I'm afraid so
2016-07-15T08:14:41Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: The main idea with disassemble is that you disassemble a FUNCTION.  What you are trying to disassemble is not a function.
2016-07-15T08:15:13Z John[Lisbeth]: PCL isn't a really good piece of documentation for a new programmer either.
2016-07-15T08:15:21Z Bike: how about gentle?
2016-07-15T08:15:26Z Bike: also, it's not documentation.
2016-07-15T08:15:30Z John[Lisbeth]: See the thing is my pdf reader is broken.
2016-07-15T08:15:35Z John[Lisbeth]: Cause of a bug in chrome os
2016-07-15T08:15:35Z Bike: uh, fix it.
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2016-07-15T08:15:40Z John[Lisbeth]: closed source breh
2016-07-15T08:15:42Z Bike: or download one.
2016-07-15T08:15:56Z Bike: or buy a paper book.
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2016-07-15T08:16:12Z John[Lisbeth]: It's okay my friend who reads assembly is asleep now anyway.
2016-07-15T08:16:21Z Bike: Or read the postscript instead.
2016-07-15T08:16:40Z Bike: No, look, it'll be way better for all of us if you read some more rather than asking questions, you know?
2016-07-15T08:16:43Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: from my point of view you are too lazy to read a book and prefer to waste other people time, what's rude and disrespectful
2016-07-15T08:16:57Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm willing to compromise for (defun bleh () #( 1 2 3)) then (disassemble bleh)
2016-07-15T08:17:10Z John[Lisbeth]: But I'd also have to disassemble defun
2016-07-15T08:17:15Z Bike: No? What?
2016-07-15T08:17:53Z Bike: You could also have done (documentation 'disassemble 'function), which makes clear what the argument can be on sbcl or ccl.
2016-07-15T08:18:07Z beach: jackdaniel: It is possible that John[Lisbeth] has a hard time with written documentation, rather than being lazy.  There is evidence of that, citing "channels" as the main source of information and terminology.
2016-07-15T08:19:06Z jdz: it is also possible he's just trolling
2016-07-15T08:19:19Z John[Lisbeth]: When I was a little kid the way they taught me in school is they'd give me hundreds of problems that were just slight variations on the same syntactic rules so that by rote memory I would know every possible way that it could go.
2016-07-15T08:19:28Z John[Lisbeth]: And I suppose thats the way I prefer to learn.
2016-07-15T08:19:50Z moore33: ouch
2016-07-15T08:19:52Z Bike: wow, that sounds pretty sad. i mean, i'm not being sarcastic, i fucking loathed that stuff.
2016-07-15T08:20:17Z reepca: hm... I can see how that would be a problem. It's hard to find a single "right" answer to test your knowledge with, over and over again, in programming (my opinion)
2016-07-15T08:20:20Z jackdaniel: beach: that's why I said "from my point of view", I might have added "it is possible I'm wrong", but I saw a few times when John[Lisbeth] refused to start reading the introductory material and asking very basic questions
2016-07-15T08:20:24Z John[Lisbeth]: I hated it too but I would kill to have a lisp book with hundreds of problems like that similar to those books I had as a child.
2016-07-15T08:20:26Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: (disassemble (lambda () #(1 2 3)))
2016-07-15T08:20:31Z Bike: but hey: gentle has exercises. you can relive your experiences.
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2016-07-15T08:21:01Z John[Lisbeth]: Yeah once google fixes my distro.
2016-07-15T08:21:05Z Bike: get kami or something.
2016-07-15T08:21:07Z jackdaniel: and by a few I mean 'a dozen'
2016-07-15T08:21:44Z Bike: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/search/pdf%20viewer?hl=en there's like a million.
2016-07-15T08:21:51Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: but you should understand what you're trying to do: disassemble will list code, #(1 2 3) is data.  As a form, #(1 2 3) makes reference to the literal data.  Disassembling code that makes reference to data, without doing anythign with it, will disassemble empty code.
2016-07-15T08:22:01Z beach: jackdaniel: I know it is irritating, but this behavior may not be meant to be deliberately annoying.  That's all I am saying.
2016-07-15T08:22:07Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: nothing to see here, pass your way.
2016-07-15T08:22:20Z John[Lisbeth]: Lambda could be used as well.
2016-07-15T08:22:56Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't use it because I can't get lambda to work
2016-07-15T08:23:10Z Bike: be more descriptive.
2016-07-15T08:23:16Z reepca: well that's a shame, lambda's cool! what have you tried?
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2016-07-15T08:23:41Z Bike: also, what bug is this? i googled "chrome os pdf bug" and it looks like they just dropped support in the core browser, so the only bug is getting an extension.
2016-07-15T08:23:46Z Bike: having to get*
2016-07-15T08:24:21Z John[Lisbeth]: That's funny. I can still open pdfs but they keep crashing.
2016-07-15T08:24:33Z Bike: What do you mean "crashing".
2016-07-15T08:24:53Z Bike: Nobody can assist with problems if you only describe them with "crashes", "doesn't work", etc.
2016-07-15T08:25:01Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: again, you're confusing data and code. PDF files don't crash.  PDF viewer programs may crash.
2016-07-15T08:25:54Z jackdaniel: beach: yes, it may be not his intention, but explaining things to someone who doesn't listen misses the point
2016-07-15T08:26:06Z beach: jackdaniel: I can't agree more.
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2016-07-15T08:30:15Z beach: moore33: Can you explain to me why the type associated with a presentation needs parameters?
2016-07-15T08:30:55Z moore33: For accepting input, basically.
2016-07-15T08:31:00Z beach: moore33: Is it that an object can be of several distinct presentation types?
2016-07-15T08:31:53Z moore33: Well that is true; an object isn't really "of a presentation type," but is presented with a presentation type. It might have a default presentation type.
2016-07-15T08:32:30Z beach: I see.
2016-07-15T08:32:59Z beach: So what happens if something is presented as being (integer 3 10) and ACCEPT is asked to find an (integer 4 11)?
2016-07-15T08:33:02Z moore33: What I meant by "accepting input" is that the accept presentation method can look at the type parameters and e.g. only accept input in a range, or construct a slider that accepts input over a range, etc.
2016-07-15T08:33:05Z John[Lisbeth]: pdf apps in playstore crash too
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2016-07-15T08:33:24Z Bike: Are you ignoring the last thing I said?
2016-07-15T08:33:44Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: you know there's an HTML version of PCL, too, right?
2016-07-15T08:33:52Z jdz: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2016-07-15T08:34:04Z Bike: i'm trying for gentle, which does not
2016-07-15T08:34:09Z beach: moore33: I understand how ACCEPT would use the parameters.  I don't understand why a single presented object needs them.
2016-07-15T08:34:45Z John[Lisbeth]: jdz: PCL is too advanced for me, and they introduce syntax too quickly.
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2016-07-15T08:35:08Z moore33: beach: Hah, well, for highlighting, I don't think the presentation types parameters are used :/ . Accept would use presentation-type-p on the object, so it wouldn't use the parameters when accepting something via a pointer action.
2016-07-15T08:36:23Z moore33: beach: In summary, I'm not sure if the type parameters need to be stored in the presentation. It's probably spec'ed that way for consistency, and maybe with a view to the future when more could be done in presentation-subtypep when mousing over presentations.
2016-07-15T08:36:34Z moore33: beach: We're not in #clim, by the way :)
2016-07-15T08:36:37Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: everything is too advanced for people who don't want to learn
2016-07-15T08:36:39Z beach: I know.
2016-07-15T08:36:47Z reepca: John[Lisbeth]: when you say "introduce syntax", are you referring to reader macros like #' , ' ` and ,@ ?
2016-07-15T08:37:04Z reepca: or just to the standard "first comes the thing to do, then the things to do the thing to" (+ 2 2) syntax?
2016-07-15T08:37:15Z beach: moore33: Thanks!
2016-07-15T08:37:21Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: the other day you were talking how you learned all about Haskell's type system, and found it not to be what you need, and Common Lisp's type system being what you want
2016-07-15T08:37:45Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: i wonder how "type systems" are not an advanced topic for you, but basic syntax is?
2016-07-15T08:38:01Z Bike: be fair, he didn't know much about them either
2016-07-15T08:38:19Z jdz: that's why i say he's just a troll
2016-07-15T08:38:33Z reepca: *shrug* some people are just stuck on infix. my brother is that way (actually he's stuck on no-parentheses...)
2016-07-15T08:38:46Z Bike: eh. if he's actually ignoring me i can buy it.
2016-07-15T08:38:51Z beach: jdz: I actually don't think so, which is possibly even more sad.
2016-07-15T08:39:54Z jdz: beach: yes, i admire your patience. i'll just shut up.
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2016-07-15T08:52:25Z John[Lisbeth]: Well I've never learned a single language all the way through because I always found problems with the language that others didn't consider a problem.
2016-07-15T08:52:37Z John[Lisbeth]: Lisp is the only language where that hasn't occured for me.
2016-07-15T08:53:19Z Bike: what does that have to do with anything
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2016-07-15T08:53:35Z John[Lisbeth]: I was answering the questions that were addressed to me.
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2016-07-15T08:54:30Z Bike: no, you were asked why you can handle type systems and not syntax. your experience with languages is kind of a non sequitur. also, i want to help with this pdf thing. you should be able to read books.
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2016-07-15T08:55:26Z reepca: if you're on debian-based, you could always give up on browser-based methods and just "apt-cache search pdf"
2016-07-15T08:55:43Z Bike: chrome os, he said.
2016-07-15T08:55:57Z reepca: well that's a shame
2016-07-15T08:56:14Z John[Lisbeth]: Because I haven't learned enough syntax of any language in order to get to the more advanced stuff and play with it
2016-07-15T08:56:24Z John[Lisbeth]: because as soon as I started learning the syntax I realized the language was deeply flawed
2016-07-15T08:56:29Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
2016-07-15T08:56:43Z reepca: ooh, you found an HTML version?
2016-07-15T08:57:02Z Bike: doesn't look like it.
2016-07-15T08:57:16Z Bike: pjb, john said he cannot read PDF files for indistinct reasons.
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2016-07-15T08:58:04Z pjb: he also said that PCL was too strong for him, hence gentle in html
2016-07-15T08:58:20Z Bike: that doesn't have the book on html though?
2016-07-15T08:58:39Z Bike: it has ps and pdf. maybe i'm blind?
2016-07-15T08:58:44Z pjb: Ah, right.
2016-07-15T08:58:50Z pjb: Well, perhaps ps is good for John[Lisbeth] ?
2016-07-15T08:59:05Z pjb: Just send it to the Postscript printer ;-)
2016-07-15T08:59:29Z pjb: Also, pdf files can be viewed in the browsers nowadays…
2016-07-15T08:59:50Z Bike: that is what is not working. and it's chrome os, i don't think there is anything but a browser?
2016-07-15T09:00:20Z reepca: it makes me so sad to see a computer cut down to an appliance
2016-07-15T09:01:47Z jdz: reepca: welcome to the club!
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2016-07-15T09:03:21Z John[Lisbeth]: I like chromebooks. It just fits in well with my philosophy.
2016-07-15T09:03:53Z jackdaniel: *and* you can't read pdf's
2016-07-15T09:06:04Z Bike: just, have you filed a bug? something? not being able to read pdfs is a serious problem.
2016-07-15T09:06:12Z John[Lisbeth]: Well I am in the unstable channle of the os
2016-07-15T09:06:15Z moore33: I like chromebooks running Linux.
2016-07-15T09:06:27Z jackdaniel: btw, does any CL implementation work on chromeos?
2016-07-15T09:08:38Z Bike: okay, well, wait for your computer to unfuck itself, and in the meantime use the other resources you have available, like the DOCUMENTATION function and hyperspec, to look up specific things so that you don't need to ask questions.
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2016-07-15T09:50:23Z p_l: ehhh, chromebooks are modern-day smart terminals (3270-like)
2016-07-15T09:50:37Z p_l: jackdaniel: ECL should
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2016-07-15T09:50:55Z jackdaniel: p_l: yes, it has NaCL and pNaCL support so shoud run inside chrome
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2016-07-15T09:51:18Z jackdaniel: but I doubt John[Lisbeth] uses ECL inside chrome
2016-07-15T09:51:21Z p_l: NaCL should be trivial, pNaCL a bit less
2016-07-15T09:51:53Z jackdaniel: pNaCL wasn't hard at all, it just limits some funcitonality
2016-07-15T09:51:56Z jackdaniel: like getcwd
2016-07-15T09:51:56Z p_l: anyway, chromebook for CL is easy - RDP or VNC full screen client to machine running Emacs+SLIME or even Symbolics Genera
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2016-07-15T09:52:38Z p_l: I was seriously considering getting a Chromebook if I could afford separate "personal mainframe" machine
2016-07-15T09:59:14Z moore33: p_l: I use a chromebook for most of my Lisp programming.
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2016-07-15T09:59:37Z moore33: I just don't run ChromeOS.
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2016-07-15T10:19:46Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: you could rent a Mac in the cloud http://www.macincloud.com/ and access it thru VNC (if you have it on chromebook) to read PDF files. macOS has very nice PDF viewers.
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2016-07-15T10:34:53Z p_l: moore33: I was thinking specifically about keeping ChromeOS on purpose to keep the machine disposable
2016-07-15T10:35:34Z p_l: moore33: and instead build up stuff accessible from it
2016-07-15T10:36:23Z moore33: p_l: That's fine. From my point of view, the hardware provides a very nice platform for Lisp and graphics programming on the bus.
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2016-07-15T10:52:59Z John[Lisbeth]: pjb: well you're not far off. I rent a FreeBSD virtual machine from ms azure which has emacs and slime installed.
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2016-07-15T10:53:53Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: then you can install a PDF viewer on this BSD machine, and see it remotely thru VNC.  There are also PDF to ASCII renderers, and for these mostly textual materials, it could be good enough.
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2016-07-15T10:58:36Z dim: if we're talking about PCL, the content is available online as a fine HTML set of pages, so Emacs is all you need to read it really
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2016-07-15T10:59:25Z dim: just reading it now as a test with M-x eww, fine user experience
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2016-07-15T12:13:31Z jackdaniel: from my experience its better to ask a question and wait patiently than just to signal that you have a question/problem :)
2016-07-15T12:13:45Z Munksgaard: jackdaniel: He already left...
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2016-07-15T12:14:14Z jackdaniel: oh
2016-07-15T12:14:25Z p_l: that said... doesn't chromeOS support PDF?
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2016-07-15T12:15:08Z moore33: p_l: John[Lisbeth] had an excuse for that.
2016-07-15T12:15:11Z jackdaniel: chrome browser does, I bet 0.5$ that it's just an excuse :D
2016-07-15T12:15:13Z jdz: chrome does support, but the person is on the bleeding edge version so he can complain more
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2016-07-15T12:15:51Z p_l: ... ChromiumOS build wouldn't have PDF plugin, indeed
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2016-07-15T12:17:30Z p_l: ChromeOS, however, has it even in experimental channel
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2016-07-15T13:22:47Z XachX_ changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted|SBCL 1.3.7, ASDF 3.1.7, ECL 16.1.2, CMUCL 21a, CFFI 0.16.0, cl-launch 4.1.4, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1
2016-07-15T13:23:00Z Xach: Probably more besides
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2016-07-15T14:08:54Z dim: refactoring is necessary sometimes, but here it feels like I will keep almost none of the previous ideas/structure of the code, that might be a tad too much of a refactoring happening
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2016-07-15T14:09:43Z dim: from source code organisation and package definitions to generic function APIs and how to pass informations (dynamic variables against per-driver structures, etc)
2016-07-15T14:09:44Z dim: oh my.
2016-07-15T14:10:36Z H4ns: the moment when you realize how much you learned since you've started the project
2016-07-15T14:10:49Z dim: in other words, first time in more than a year that I can spend several days in a row on the project
2016-07-15T14:11:13Z dim: H4ns: mmm, maybe that too, thanks for the positive thinking here ;-)
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2016-07-15T14:28:57Z francogrex: hi I am trying to output combinatons, I had come up with this code for 3 units each with 2 possible outcomes of 0 or 1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320530
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2016-07-15T14:29:39Z dlowe: http://www.newsweek.com/2016/05/06/first-human-head-transplant-452240.html
2016-07-15T14:29:40Z francogrex: however does anyone have a suggestion how I would do it if I had 3 instead of 2 possible outcomes? like (0 0 1) (0 0 2) ...
2016-07-15T14:29:42Z dlowe: oops, sorry
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2016-07-15T14:30:20Z dlowe: that's a nice recursive problem
2016-07-15T14:30:39Z francogrex: which one?
2016-07-15T14:30:52Z dlowe: generating combinations
2016-07-15T14:30:56Z francogrex: yes
2016-07-15T14:31:07Z dlowe: your base case is an empty list
2016-07-15T14:31:14Z francogrex: I feel there is an algorithm
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2016-07-15T14:31:37Z francogrex: or a list of 0 0 0
2016-07-15T14:32:03Z francogrex: nothing is triggered and then trigger either 1 or 2
2016-07-15T14:32:17Z dlowe: your recursive case is to return all the combinations of the first head element appended to all the combinations of a list of size n - 1
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2016-07-15T14:32:54Z dlowe: you can also generate it from the tail, which would probably be more efficien
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2016-07-15T14:36:22Z francogrex: something like that: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9632677/combinatorics-generate-all-states-array-combinations
2016-07-15T14:37:56Z francogrex: not entirely
2016-07-15T14:38:47Z Grue``: francogrex: you can make format print in any base, not just binary. so using your method, print in base 3
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2016-07-15T14:40:56Z francogrex: Grue``: will that work? if it does then quite nice. How can I do that with format specifically? which directive, I know ~b is base 2
2016-07-15T14:41:56Z Grue``: ~nR prints arg in radix n
2016-07-15T14:42:02Z Grue``: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/22_cba.htm
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2016-07-15T14:43:59Z dim: I think generating combinations is already part of a CL lib available through Quicklisp
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2016-07-15T14:45:10Z Grue``: alexandria has map-combinations. however what francogrex wants is not combinations but all fixed-length sequences with elements being numbers from 0 to n-1
2016-07-15T14:45:16Z dim: alexandria has map-combinations and map-derangements and map-permutations
2016-07-15T14:48:22Z francogrex: ok Grue``I will try your method with format... indeed though I don't know how the combinations of alexandria will work if they are fir for purpose
2016-07-15T14:50:03Z francogrex: this for example would yield the combinations of all the number of ways to paint 3 houses using 3 colors.
2016-07-15T14:50:29Z mordocai: jsgrant: Hey! I vegged out on the couch after the meetup. The meetup went well but the camera failed to record so no video is going to be posted.  I have some corrections to make to the presentation but basically we just went through the presentation and discussed practically every slide in depth heh.
2016-07-15T14:50:51Z francogrex: should be 27 different arranegmenets
2016-07-15T14:51:00Z jdz: mordocai: fascinating!
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2016-07-15T14:51:39Z Grue``: francogrex: your method, not mine. Id never even think about) doing it that way
2016-07-15T14:53:09Z mordocai: This meetup if anyone is curious http://www.meetup.com/Arch-Lisp/events/232254475/
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2016-07-15T14:53:40Z francogrex: (let ((lnt (expt 3 3))) (loop for i from 0 below lnt collect  (format nil (format nil "~~~a,~a,'0,R" 3 3) i)))
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2016-07-15T14:54:10Z dlowe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320531
2016-07-15T14:54:15Z dlowe: francogrex: there you go
2016-07-15T14:55:59Z francogrex: dlowe: nice. I think what I came up with is also fine
2016-07-15T14:56:10Z francogrex: not sure it's correct output though
2016-07-15T14:56:17Z dlowe: if you're using format, that sounds incredibly wasteful
2016-07-15T14:56:49Z francogrex: format you mean is wasteful
2016-07-15T14:57:15Z Grue``: why do you have two nested formats though...
2016-07-15T14:57:30Z francogrex: I will take yours thanks. why does it not start orderly though like (0 0 0) ...
2016-07-15T14:58:05Z francogrex: Grue``: just so I can change the numbers easily but I agree it's not really needed
2016-07-15T14:58:16Z dlowe: it could, but it's efficient to iterate through the tails forward and cons the result backward
2016-07-15T14:58:38Z Grue``: format can use one of its arguments as a parameter for printing directive
2016-07-15T14:58:52Z Grue``: I don't remember right now but it's in the docs
2016-07-15T14:59:00Z dlowe: ~?
2016-07-15T14:59:02Z dlowe: clhs ~?
2016-07-15T14:59:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgf.htm
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2016-07-15T14:59:46Z Grue``: "In place of a prefix parameter to a directive, V (or v) can be used. In this case, format takes an argument from args as a parameter to the directive."
2016-07-15T15:00:23Z Grue``: so you can print in arbitrary base with "~vr"
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2016-07-15T15:02:09Z francogrex: ok like that for example: (format nil "~v,3,'0,R" 3 i)
2016-07-15T15:03:15Z francogrex: (let ((lnt (expt 3 3))) (loop for i from 0 below lnt collect  (format nil "~v,v,'0,R" 3 3 i)))
2016-07-15T15:05:26Z francogrex: but dlowe's function is more optimized and efficient I see it with some time tests
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2016-07-15T15:09:21Z Grue``: you can do a lot more optimized, like if you preallocate a (3^3 x 3) 2-dimensional array and fill in the cells based on their coordinates
2016-07-15T15:11:03Z dlowe: that doesn't actually seem more optimized.
2016-07-15T15:11:22Z dlowe: I mean, maybe I'm being dumb here
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2016-07-15T15:12:23Z John[Lisbeth]: It's not hard for me to switch to the stable channel of chrome os I suppose. pjb well I don't like the VNC protocol as much as SSH
2016-07-15T15:12:44Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't know if emacs ran read pdfs in the -nw version
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2016-07-15T15:16:04Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: have you tried?
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2016-07-15T15:18:22Z John[Lisbeth]: I shutter to think of the keybinds I would have to occupy my limited time learning.
2016-07-15T15:18:37Z John[Lisbeth]: I might as well just open the pdf on my phone but I'd rather wait for google to fix my pdf reader.
2016-07-15T15:18:57Z John[Lisbeth]: It's sort of a spiteful thing I suppose.
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2016-07-15T15:19:33Z Grue``: dlowe: it's obviously more optimized to allocate memory at once than consing and recursion
2016-07-15T15:20:16Z dlowe: No, it's not obvious.
2016-07-15T15:20:23Z dlowe: consing is cheap. gc is expensive.
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2016-07-15T15:21:02Z Grue``: and allocating an array of ints is even cheaper
2016-07-15T15:21:08Z dlowe: specifically, I'm wondering how you get your results out of your array
2016-07-15T15:21:15Z Grue``: because its a standard thing in most architectures
2016-07-15T15:21:43Z Grue``: rows will be the results
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2016-07-15T15:23:49Z dlowe: I still don't think it will be faster.
2016-07-15T15:24:38Z dlowe: and returning a 2d array isn't the friendliest api
2016-07-15T15:24:51Z dlowe: the shared lists aren't as slow as they seem because they share structure
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2016-07-15T15:33:08Z John[Lisbeth]: Are vectors not dynamic arrays?
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2016-07-15T15:33:25Z dlowe: not necessarily. They can be.
2016-07-15T15:33:31Z dlowe: The default is non-dynamic
2016-07-15T15:33:39Z John[Lisbeth]: Are arrays dynamic by default?
2016-07-15T15:34:00Z beach: What is a "dynamic array"?
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2016-07-15T15:34:15Z John[Lisbeth]: An array which is not of fixed dimension or size.
2016-07-15T15:34:17Z ggole: clhs make-array
2016-07-15T15:34:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
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2016-07-15T15:34:46Z ggole: See the keyword arguments there, in particular adjustable
2016-07-15T15:34:48Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: I think the term used in Common Lisp for that is "adjustable".
2016-07-15T15:35:13Z John[Lisbeth]: Sorry I talk with alot of C++ programmers.
2016-07-15T15:36:36Z ggole: Fixed in C++ usually means constant
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2016-07-15T15:36:56Z John[Lisbeth]: The thing I'm struggling with is getting a grasp on adjustable arrays. I want to use t hem to build my pseudo-finite state machine logic.
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2016-07-15T15:40:46Z John[Lisbeth]: Perhaps if I could ask you questions about the syntax of the common lisp hyperspec then I could read it more easily.
2016-07-15T15:40:56Z John[Lisbeth]: The way they word things is very indescriptive.
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2016-07-15T15:41:18Z John[Lisbeth]: Reads alot like a man page. Very dry and hard to grasp.
2016-07-15T15:41:46Z beach: clhs 1.4.1
2016-07-15T15:41:46Z specbot: Notational Conventions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_da.htm
2016-07-15T15:42:02Z oGMo: that .. you have to learn the terminology etc
2016-07-15T15:42:36Z John[Lisbeth]: This page confuses me:
2016-07-15T15:42:39Z John[Lisbeth]: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_daba.htm
2016-07-15T15:43:10Z oGMo: adjustable arrays are arrays you can use adjust-array on. it's not really that complicated
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2016-07-15T15:44:11Z John[Lisbeth]: That doesn't sound like a very good solution but I'd have to do more research on adjust-array.
2016-07-15T15:44:47Z Grue``: it's complicated when you consider stuff like fill-pointers and displaced arrays
2016-07-15T15:44:59Z oGMo: a good solution to what? it's not a solution at all, it's what a thing is
2016-07-15T15:45:49Z John[Lisbeth]: Like I say I'd have to study adjust-arry and make-array more
2016-07-15T15:47:01Z oGMo: i suggest just writing code and if you need to change an existing array, you know where to look
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2016-07-15T16:04:35Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm going to have to switch to C++ soon anyway so I suppose I'll just learn how vectors work in C++
2016-07-15T16:04:55Z moore33: John[Lisbeth]: Is there any computer language that you actually know well?
2016-07-15T16:04:59Z moore33: Ugh.
2016-07-15T16:05:13Z Xach: heh
2016-07-15T16:05:20Z JuanDaugherty: harsh
2016-07-15T16:05:21Z John[Lisbeth]: Not any compiled ones
2016-07-15T16:05:32Z John[Lisbeth]: I am moderately good at bash
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2016-07-15T16:05:50Z John[Lisbeth]: and I know a little more haskell than I do lisp. I could write a decent program in haskell if I could understand it's typing notation.
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2016-07-15T16:06:00Z John[Lisbeth]: I also know enough lisp to program in it recursively.
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2016-07-15T16:06:03Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Programming languages are neither compiled nor interpreted.  Implementations are one or the other or both.
2016-07-15T16:06:13Z moore33: John[Lisbeth]: I'm not trying to be insulting, but I am wondering why you are worried about optimizing finite state machines if you can't really program (your words?)
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2016-07-15T16:06:39Z John[Lisbeth]: Well you see I'm in a race with this thing called death.
2016-07-15T16:06:50Z John[Lisbeth]: And I don't want to die having known I wasted my time on something that wasn't useful.
2016-07-15T16:06:52Z moore33: Aren't we all :)
2016-07-15T16:07:02Z JuanDaugherty: they don't even call it programming any more so give the guy a break
2016-07-15T16:07:09Z moore33: Ah, well that's the wrong attitude.
2016-07-15T16:07:48Z beach: JuanDaugherty: What do they call it now?
2016-07-15T16:07:49Z Grue``: like talking on irc instead of actually learning programming?
2016-07-15T16:07:49Z moore33: My philosophy is pretty much the opposite: If a thing is worth doing at all, it's worth doing several times.
2016-07-15T16:08:03Z JuanDaugherty: beach coding
2016-07-15T16:08:04Z John[Lisbeth]: I'll still program in lisp in my free time but meanwhile I have to steal the deep recursion goodness in lisp and stash it inside of finite state machines in C++ so nobody will notice I am doing it. But i also can't bootstrap.
2016-07-15T16:08:22Z John[Lisbeth]: If they catch me bootstrapping my career is over.
2016-07-15T16:08:28Z moore33: John[Lisbeth]:Career?
2016-07-15T16:08:33Z beach: JuanDaugherty: I'll try to remember that.
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2016-07-15T16:08:49Z John[Lisbeth]: yes my software career, which comes after my academic career.
2016-07-15T16:09:16Z John[Lisbeth]: Though I may just get a job in excel and lay low for maybe twenty years.
2016-07-15T16:09:27Z moore33: "bootstrapping" meaning "cheating" somewhere?
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2016-07-15T16:09:45Z John[Lisbeth]: I can't write a lisp interpreter in C++ or anything resembling a lisp interpreter.
2016-07-15T16:09:49Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: You have an academic career already?  And you don't know about use of terminology?
2016-07-15T16:10:00Z JuanDaugherty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lycurgus/MoCA the days when people generally go that level are long past
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2016-07-15T16:11:05Z JuanDaugherty ported AKCL to OS/2 but never did anything with it
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2016-07-15T16:11:17Z John[Lisbeth]: I use alot of different terminology because I hang out in alot of different irc channels. #debian #bash #manjaro #arch-linux #ubuntu the linux mint irc which is not on freenode, #perl #perl6 #csharp #haskell #visualbasic #powershell and quite a few others
2016-07-15T16:11:23Z John[Lisbeth]: and they all have different terminology
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2016-07-15T16:11:55Z JuanDaugherty: *go to
2016-07-15T16:11:59Z John[Lisbeth]: I've been from #shen to #awk
2016-07-15T16:12:00Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: If you had some kind of academic career, you would know that computer science terminology is not defined by IRC channels.
2016-07-15T16:12:01Z Xach: Be careful not to waste too much life
2016-07-15T16:12:35Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't think you fathom what I said. As I switch between different languages, they use different terms for things, and so therefore I don't know all of the lisp terms.
2016-07-15T16:12:36Z moore33: John[Lisbeth]: Yeah, if you're worried about wasting time, maybe you should spend less time on IRC.
2016-07-15T16:12:49Z John[Lisbeth]: noted
2016-07-15T16:13:06Z moore33: Not that I should talk.
2016-07-15T16:13:14Z jdz: you hypocrite!
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2016-07-15T16:14:27Z moore33: Hypocrisy gets a bad name.
2016-07-15T16:14:37Z beach: Heh.
2016-07-15T16:14:37Z trinque: John[Lisbeth] │ If they catch me bootstrapping my career is over. << what the... what?
2016-07-15T16:15:25Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't want them to know I am using things that way. I want them to believe I am an imperative programmer who uses C++.
2016-07-15T16:15:43Z John[Lisbeth]: And that way I can save myself alot of time and just program what I want to program when they are not looking.
2016-07-15T16:16:07Z jdz: you know, eventually *they* will catch you!
2016-07-15T16:16:12Z John[Lisbeth]: I've found some electrical engineering stuff which can hide my recursion.
2016-07-15T16:16:24Z John[Lisbeth]: They probably won't if I keep it syntactically low level
2016-07-15T16:16:57Z trinque: oh shit, not the they.
2016-07-15T16:17:21Z trinque: if they catch you, they'll hack your gibson.
2016-07-15T16:17:22Z John[Lisbeth]: Yep, them themselves alright. With their business suits and their smart water.
2016-07-15T16:17:22Z jdz: pretty sure you can override the parenthesis (function call) operator in C++ so that the code is C++ but looks like Lisp!
2016-07-15T16:17:43Z John[Lisbeth]: No I can hide my recursion in finite state machines just fine.
2016-07-15T16:18:17Z John[Lisbeth]: The trick is I have to allow in some mutable state.
2016-07-15T16:18:24Z jdz: last time i did C it had no issues doing recursion, i noticed GCC even does tail call elimination
2016-07-15T16:18:41Z John[Lisbeth]: I probably won't get a choice which compiler I use.
2016-07-15T16:18:53Z beach: It won't matter.
2016-07-15T16:19:24Z John[Lisbeth]: It won't matter regardless because fsm solves my problem in C++ when you combine it with emacs.
2016-07-15T16:19:37Z John[Lisbeth]: And then switch the global int to a global vector.
2016-07-15T16:20:09Z Grue``: how is anything of this related to common lisp?
2016-07-15T16:20:14Z trinque: guys I think this is a markov bot
2016-07-15T16:20:21Z John[Lisbeth]: I am simply answering the question that people are asking me.
2016-07-15T16:20:21Z trinque: you've all been had
2016-07-15T16:20:31Z trinque: by the THEM
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2016-07-15T16:21:49Z John[Lisbeth]: Lispers and emacsers often claim I'm a bot because my garbled programming terms from different languages makes it appear as if I am snagging random quotes from chats. Which is technically true.
2016-07-15T16:22:13Z John[Lisbeth]: Though my machine learning algorithm is hosted organically.
2016-07-15T16:22:15Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: you combine C++ with emacs?  what about all those keybinds you shutter to think of that would occupy your limited time learning?
2016-07-15T16:23:49Z jsgrant: mordocai: Neato, good to hear. No big deal on the video, this "everything should come together at once" feeling most organizers of these seems to have rarely if ever happens -- I'm sure it'll work itself out moving onwards and all that/those platiudes. :^P
2016-07-15T16:24:31Z jsgrant: John[Lisbeth]: Update your wetware!
2016-07-15T16:24:36Z jsgrant: :^P
2016-07-15T16:24:54Z trinque: guy's just trolling feebly
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2016-07-15T16:25:43Z jsgrant hasn't read the backlog sans mordo's response awhile back. :^P
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2016-07-15T16:31:00Z devon: (map t #'- ()) in CCL signals TYPE-ERROR "The value T is not of the expected type SEQUENCE." in CCL, what do you get in other lisps?
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2016-07-15T16:33:01Z beach: clhs map
2016-07-15T16:33:01Z Grue``: seems reasonable, the first argument should be like 'list or 'vector
2016-07-15T16:33:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm
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2016-07-15T16:34:14Z beach: Grue``: Or 'string, or 'bit-vector, or ...
2016-07-15T16:34:36Z Grue``: hence "like"
2016-07-15T16:34:44Z beach: Yeah, OK.
2016-07-15T16:35:24Z beach: devon: An error of type type-error must be signaled if the result-type is not a recognizable subtype of list, not a recognizable subtype of vector, and not nil.
2016-07-15T16:36:14Z beach: devon: In other words, if some implementation does not signal a type-error in that situation, then that implementation is not conforming.
2016-07-15T16:36:19Z devon: The CCL error message is wrong, it should say something like "The type T is not a subtype of (or list vector null)" so I wonder what CLISP or SBCL would say.
2016-07-15T16:37:13Z beach: devon: The Common Lisp HyperSpec specifically allows other sequence types in some parts of the document.
2016-07-15T16:37:31Z Grue``: sequence is a supertype of (or list vector null), so it follows logically
2016-07-15T16:38:36Z beach: clhs sequence
2016-07-15T16:38:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_seq.htm
2016-07-15T16:38:45Z beach: devon: "The types vector and the type list are disjoint subtypes of type sequence, but are not necessarily an exhaustive partition of sequence."
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2016-07-15T16:40:32Z devon: I don't have CLISP, SBCL, etc. handy so would someore show me what error message a non-CCL lisp produces for (map t #'- ()) please?
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2016-07-15T16:40:35Z beach: devon: Like I said, the Common Lisp HyperSpec is somewhat inconsistent in this respect.  I think the page on MAP should be relaxed a bit in terms of the error message.
2016-07-15T16:41:14Z rme: devon: sbcl says "T is a bad type specifier for sequences"
2016-07-15T16:41:17Z brfennpocock: sbcl: T is a bad type specifier for sequences.    [Condition of type SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR]
2016-07-15T16:41:18Z brfennpocock:  
2016-07-15T16:41:47Z brfennpocock:  #<SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR expected-type:   (SATISFIES SB-IMPL::IS-A-VALID-SEQUENCE-TYPE-SPECIFIER-P)  datum: T>
2016-07-15T16:41:49Z devon: rme: brfennpocock: thank you very much, I appreciate the favor.
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2016-07-15T16:41:55Z rme: LispWorks says "Error: T is a bad result type specifier for sequences."
2016-07-15T16:42:14Z beach: ecl: T does not specify a sequence type
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2016-07-15T16:43:16Z Grue``: interesting how both sbcl and lispworks use "bad type specifier" wording
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2016-07-15T16:47:18Z beach: devon: CLISP: There are no sequences of type T
2016-07-15T16:48:54Z Grue``: isn't everything of type t?
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2016-07-15T16:49:16Z beach: Yeah, that message is not great.
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2016-07-15T16:50:18Z beach: "T is not a valid type specifier for a sequence type" would be best.
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2016-07-15T17:04:05Z beach: devon: Does that answer your question?
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2016-07-15T17:30:29Z brfennpocock: devon: delayed but FWIW: Allegro Enterprise says, “T is an invalid output type specifier” (TYPE-ERROR, with EXPECTED-TYPE = SEQUENCE)
2016-07-15T17:32:20Z brfennpocock keeps forgetting we have that here O : - )
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2016-07-15T17:52:32Z jasom: hmm, is it me, or is array-upgrading, as written in the spec, undecidable?
2016-07-15T17:54:53Z jasom: As I read it, it is technically not allowed for (upgraded-array-element-type '(satisfies zerop)) to upgrade to a supertype of (upgraded-array-element-type 'bit) as the former is a subtype of the latter
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2016-07-15T17:59:30Z ggole: Is that ruled out in the hyperspec? It doesn't seem to.
2016-07-15T17:59:42Z ggole: "The typespec is a subtype of (and possibly type equivalent to) the upgraded-typespec."
2016-07-15T18:00:15Z totimkopf: why does using setf on a special variable not work if I use (setf *foo* 0), it only seems to work if I use (setf foo 0) but that change is not really global?
2016-07-15T18:01:13Z ggole: Well, those are different variables.
2016-07-15T18:01:55Z jasom: ggole: it is not allowed for e.g. (mod 2) to upgrade to a super-type of what (mod 3) upgrades to as an example.
2016-07-15T18:02:51Z totimkopf: so there is no way to use setf with special variables?
2016-07-15T18:03:01Z jasom: ggole:  A type is always a subtype of its upgraded array element type. Also, if a type Tx is a subtype of another type Ty, then the upgraded array element type of Tx must be a subtype of the upgraded array element type of Ty.
2016-07-15T18:03:15Z jasom: totimkopf: setf works fine on a special variable
2016-07-15T18:03:27Z jasom: totimkopf: it needs to be declared special though
2016-07-15T18:03:39Z jasom: (defvar *foo*) (setf *foo* 0) works fine
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2016-07-15T18:04:28Z totimkopf: jasom: ah, does it make a difference if i do (defvar *foo* 0) then (setf *foo* 1) ?
2016-07-15T18:04:37Z jasom: totimkopf: that's fine too
2016-07-15T18:04:41Z ggole: jasom: hmm, where does it say that exactly?
2016-07-15T18:04:52Z jasom: ggole: clhs 15.1.2.1
2016-07-15T18:04:57Z jasom: clhs 15.1.2.1
2016-07-15T18:04:58Z specbot: Array Upgrading: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/15_aba.htm
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2016-07-15T18:05:48Z ggole: I see. Hmm.
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2016-07-15T18:07:26Z jasom: ggole: What all actual implementations seem to do is to just upgrade all satisfies types to T, which is really the only sane thing to do
2016-07-15T18:08:37Z totimkopf: jasom: http://pastebin.com/q6nbir3i I pasted the warnings I'm getting from my REPL along with the code I'm trying to get work
2016-07-15T18:09:21Z jasom: totimkopf: which lisp implementation are you using?
2016-07-15T18:09:32Z ggole: jasom: I see, this is really a question about the type relationship between satisfies and the integer specifiers
2016-07-15T18:09:45Z totimkopf: jasom: SBCL
2016-07-15T18:10:06Z jasom: totimkopf: you are typing those lines in the repl in the order of the paste and you get the warnings you listed?
2016-07-15T18:10:08Z jasom: that's really odd
2016-07-15T18:10:23Z ggole: In which case I think the answer would be that lisp doesn't regard (satisfies zerop) as a subtype of bit, or having any particular type relationship to it at all
2016-07-15T18:10:57Z ggole: eg, (satisfies zerop) is the same as (integer 0 0) morally, but not for the purposes of the type machinery.
2016-07-15T18:11:08Z totimkopf: jasom: no, I run it from a buffer with C-c C-c
2016-07-15T18:11:17Z totimkopf: but it is in that order yes
2016-07-15T18:11:24Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#subtype <-- the glossary implies that's not the case
2016-07-15T18:12:19Z ggole: I think there's something in there for this.
2016-07-15T18:12:30Z ggole: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_r.htm#recognizable_subtype
2016-07-15T18:12:48Z jasom: totimkopf: C-c C-k will compile and load the whole file for you
2016-07-15T18:12:53Z totimkopf: oh
2016-07-15T18:13:18Z ggole: So... is this the basis on which array upgrading works? I would be pretty surprised if not.
2016-07-15T18:13:20Z jasom: totimkopf: which is somewhat less error prone in this case.  However, I did a C-c C-c on just one defvar and then on the (defun randomize) and got one less warning, so it should work
2016-07-15T18:14:34Z jasom: ggole: as-written it says "subtype" not "recognizable subtype" but I think that's an oversight
2016-07-15T18:14:44Z devon: beach: Yes, my question is answered.  Thanks.
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2016-07-15T18:16:07Z ggole: The verbiage for subtypep is interesting: "subtypep could not determine the relationship, so type-1 might or might not be a subtype of type-2"
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2016-07-15T18:18:01Z doby162: Hey, has anyone had any luck with cl-ncurses? It always gives me "The alien function "initscr" is undefined.", which seems to be associated with not having ncurses installed. But yum tells me I have the latest version.
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2016-07-15T18:25:55Z totimkopf: jasom: nice, that worked, thank you, I guess this was a result of me not understanding that C-c C-c only compiles one definition
2016-07-15T18:29:20Z sjl: doby162: I haven't used it, but cl-charms is a fork of it that's much more actively maintained: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms
2016-07-15T18:29:32Z sjl: doby162: might be worth trying out?
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2016-07-15T18:30:20Z doby162: I'll check that out and see if it works better.
2016-07-15T18:31:30Z doby162: fatal error: ncurses.h: No such file or directory
2016-07-15T18:31:43Z doby162: Hmm. It really seems like yum is lying to me somehow
2016-07-15T18:32:11Z Xach: doby162: I don't know about yum, but sometimes you need both the "foo" and "foo-dev" or "foo-devel" packages to get headers and such.
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2016-07-15T18:34:38Z doby162: I'm not finding anything like that for yum, but I'll check my mint machine as well, it's more up to date
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2016-07-15T18:42:54Z Posterdati: hi
2016-07-15T18:43:17Z Posterdati: how can I pass data to a trivial-timers timeout handler??
2016-07-15T18:43:19Z Posterdati: thanks?
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2016-07-15T18:50:53Z doby162: Hmm, ok, so I can't  get cl-charms to even install without error on any of my machines. Any other good terminal manipulation libraries?
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2016-07-15T18:55:58Z sjl: doby162: if you just want ascii graphics, but not to run in an actual terminal, there's bearlibterm https://gitlab.com/mordocai/cl-bearlibterminal
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2016-07-15T18:56:23Z mordocai: doby162: I'm active here so if you run into any trouble with cl-bearlibterminal ping me
2016-07-15T18:56:57Z mordocai: The library itself isn't really in package managers so you have to distribute it yourself
2016-07-15T18:57:41Z doby162: Ok, thanks!
2016-07-15T18:57:46Z doby162: checking that out next
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2016-07-15T19:03:06Z Posterdati: how can I pass data to a trivial-timers timeout handler???
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2016-07-15T19:05:02Z rme: I'm speaking from ignorance, as I know nothing about trivial-timers, but generally, whenever you can pass a function, you can pass a closure.  Maybe that would be a good technique to use in your case.
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2016-07-15T19:13:43Z Posterdati: rme: how?
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2016-07-15T19:20:44Z rme: Posterdati: Say that you're in some function, and a variable named "data" is in scope.  Then you pass #'(lambda (...) (handle-timeout data)) as the timeout handler.
2016-07-15T19:21:11Z doby162: mordocai: not finding any instructions on installing bearlibterminal. I downloaded and unpacked it, and then when lisp failed to find it attempted to put in it's absolute position as a restart-option, but I suspect there is a less silly way to install a lbrary by hand
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2016-07-15T19:21:36Z fourier: Is where a way to provide lisp array to foreign function? i.e. create an array as (make-array 10 :element-type '(unsigned byte)) and supply it to some CFFI function as void*, which could read it/write to it?
2016-07-15T19:21:53Z fourier: (unsigned-byte 8) of course
2016-07-15T19:22:19Z Xach: fourier: it's not that simple
2016-07-15T19:22:42Z Xach: (how not simple, i don't know, sorry)
2016-07-15T19:24:06Z fourier: Xach: I understand what I can just copy arrays between foreign array/lisp array element-wise, but this looks extremely bad (after all i'm trying to use c library to gain a performance)
2016-07-15T19:24:59Z Xach: fourier: i don't do any ffi work, but some people here do, so they can explain how it is done without excessive copying
2016-07-15T19:26:20Z Bike: i think you can use https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors? i don't know if it still copies.
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2016-07-15T19:32:03Z fourier: Bike: looks like what I need, proper abstraction over implementation-defined static arrays. documentation level however so typical :)
2016-07-15T19:34:02Z mordocai: doby162: Easiest way assuming linux is put it in /usr/local/lib and then run ldconfig
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2016-07-15T20:40:54Z phoe_krk posts https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/pull/31 for public review
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2016-07-15T20:42:23Z phoe_krk: Basically, beach was having issues with rendering speeds in McCLIM on CCL; me and mmos discovered that CCL was sleeping most of the time instead of the rendering and found two issues, one in CCl for having an amusingly high sleep-timer when calling PROCESS-WAIT, another with CLX utilizing this way of controlling threads and not the modern (and much faster) yielding provided by CCL.
2016-07-15T20:42:48Z phoe_krk: That's the CLX part. rme committed the CCL part upstream.
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2016-07-15T20:46:59Z phoe_krk: It's... very, very peculiar to wire modern standards and tools into code that has #+lispm scattered all over its codebase.
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2016-07-15T20:51:39Z Posterdati: rme, I already did as you write, but timeout never happen, the timer is scheduled inside a thread
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2016-07-15T22:19:49Z pillton: phoe_krk: I have that XKCD comic on the wall.
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2016-07-15T22:25:21Z phoe_krk: pillton: I have it in my memory all the time I'm doing practical Lisp archaeology.
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2016-07-16T00:29:51Z pillton: I'm not sure if it is widely known, but it is possible for macros to communicate with other macros without one of the macros code walking.
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2016-07-16T00:30:47Z pillton: I was reading Shinmera's blog post on the For loop and it reminded me a link pjb sent me a long time ago.
2016-07-16T00:30:54Z pillton: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss066_w.htm
2016-07-16T00:31:46Z pillton: A skeleton of a for macro using this technique can be seen here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320557
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2016-07-16T01:19:51Z Bike: what, the symbol-macrolet thing?
2016-07-16T01:19:55Z Bike: yeah.
2016-07-16T01:20:43Z Bike: you can use dynamic variables too, but like, gross, man.
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2016-07-16T01:25:14Z jasom: There are lots of ways to skin this cat.
2016-07-16T01:25:23Z jasom: You can do something like what setf does as well
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2016-07-16T01:29:13Z pillton: You wouldn't be able to scope the dynamic variable binding if you used dynamic variables.
2016-07-16T01:29:55Z pillton: And setf doesn't allow you to introduce a lexical environment around all assignments.
2016-07-16T01:31:16Z pillton: I agree it isn't pretty though. Bloody hard to debug.
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2016-07-16T01:34:01Z jasom: pillton: perhaps I'm misunderstanding, it does establish lexical bindings.
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2016-07-16T01:56:53Z pillton: jasom Bike: I have to go out now. I'll show you what I mean later. This timezone difference is terrible.
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2016-07-16T02:06:48Z pmc: Why am I getting "too many arguments for ATOM": (adjoin 'a lst :test #'atom) or (adjoin 'a lst :test-not #'atom) ?
2016-07-16T02:08:01Z pmc: I see, nevermind.
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2016-07-16T04:15:38Z peey: Xach: once added to quicklisp via the quicklisp-projects repository, how much time does it take for a system to become availalbe via (ql:quickload ...) ?
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2016-07-16T04:29:46Z marsjaninzmarsa: peey: without recompiling? instantly.
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2016-07-16T04:31:34Z marsjaninzmarsa: peey: ouhg, nevermind, I misunderstood your question.
2016-07-16T04:31:44Z peey: mars: I'm talking about adding a library to quicklisp itself
2016-07-16T04:31:46Z peey: yeah
2016-07-16T04:32:47Z jasom: peey: there are monthly quicklisp releases
2016-07-16T04:34:01Z peey: jsom: oh. Any idea around what date the next monthly ql release may be? / date the previous monthly release was?
2016-07-16T04:35:43Z peey: I found it on the ql website "The libraries were last updated on June 29, 2016. ". Thanks!
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2016-07-16T04:41:04Z peey: It was already a part of the last monthly release. I had to do a (ql:update-all-dists) though, only then I was able to install new projects added in the last monthly release
2016-07-16T04:46:11Z jasom: peey: yeah, until you run that ql won't update anything
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2016-07-16T04:52:31Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-16T05:01:46Z dwchandler: Bonjour!
2016-07-16T05:03:59Z dwchandler: Et bonne nuit!
2016-07-16T05:04:00Z dwchandler: zzz
2016-07-16T05:04:15Z beach: 'night dwchandler.
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2016-07-16T06:04:44Z totimkopf: gingerale: delicious nick :)
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2016-07-16T06:16:47Z peey: I want to clean up the page at http://cliki.net/infix, to add http://cliki.net/ugly-tiny-infix-macro. Should I take the details of two libraries mentioned on the infix page and make separate pages for them, and then make it into a topic page? Or should I simply add contents of tiny infix macro to that page itself?
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2016-07-16T07:12:54Z gingerale: totimkopf: Thank you
2016-07-16T07:13:53Z gingerale: Trying to get an old project I dug up to work but blasted thing only provides a blank black window no matter what I try.
2016-07-16T07:14:06Z gingerale: Found this old (very unoptimized) code for 2D pixel sand simulator.
2016-07-16T07:14:23Z gingerale: Figured I'd try to get it to work but so far not much luck. :U
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2016-07-16T09:06:17Z gingerale: Phew, drawing works. Now to fix the actual sand gravity logic
2016-07-16T09:06:24Z gingerale: Well not now, sometime
2016-07-16T09:06:30Z gingerale: (It's terrible.)
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2016-07-16T16:20:24Z shka: Unable to load any of the alternatives:
2016-07-16T16:20:25Z shka:    ("libcommonqt.so.1.0.0" "libcommonqt.so.1" "libcommonqt.so")
2016-07-16T16:20:37Z shka: what are the exect dependencies for qtools?
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2016-07-16T16:26:44Z shka: does ql maintain ld path for finding so libs?
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2016-07-16T16:30:49Z dim: I don't think so, no
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2016-07-16T16:42:54Z francogrex: hi, in slime is there no way to have the output of the CxCe evaluation shown at the slime repl (or inferior-lisp) instead of the emacs tiny minibuffer? it's sorta useless if you want to print out long lists for example
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2016-07-16T16:43:55Z dim: copy/paste the expression to the repl?
2016-07-16T16:44:21Z dim: maybe C-c C-p ?
2016-07-16T16:44:55Z beach: francogrex: Give a numeric argument
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2016-07-16T16:45:03Z beach: C-u C-x C-e
2016-07-16T16:46:25Z dim: C-c C-p runs the command slime-pprint-eval-last-expression ; that outputs to *slime-descriptions* buffer, looks nice too
2016-07-16T16:46:41Z dim: C-u C-x C-e is definitely nice!
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2016-07-16T16:48:00Z francogrex: indeed both are good
2016-07-16T16:48:35Z francogrex: how come I don't find those in the slime-refcard.pdf ?
2016-07-16T16:51:19Z dim: I found C-c C-p just now via C-h m
2016-07-16T16:53:23Z francogrex: dim: ok but the other seem undocumented
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2016-07-16T16:54:49Z francogrex: geiser-eval-last-sexp, bound to C-x C-e, will eval the s-expression just before point. If you use a prefix, as in C-u C-x C-e, besides evaluating it the expression is inserted in the buffer
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2016-07-16T18:25:19Z emaczen: Which compilers allow you to extend build-in classes?
2016-07-16T18:25:33Z emaczen: Also, how do you do it?
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2016-07-16T18:26:29Z Bike: couple of them allow custom sequence classes, which you make in the obvious way and then define a few methods for
2016-07-16T18:26:54Z emaczen: (defclass circular-list (list) ()) -- Like this?
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2016-07-16T18:35:45Z flip214: I've got a function that does (setf (lines *file*) (coerce (lines *file*) 'vector))
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2016-07-16T18:36:03Z flip214: the type of the lines slot is (OR (VECTOR LINE) LIST)
2016-07-16T18:36:28Z flip214: but I get the error "The value #() is not of type LIST" within LENGTH
2016-07-16T18:36:33Z flip214: and I don't understand that
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2016-07-16T18:37:38Z moore33: #() is a simple-vector if I'm not mistaken.
2016-07-16T18:37:50Z moore33: Therefore not of type (vector line).
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2016-07-16T18:38:43Z moore33: Hmmm, forget the simple part :) In any event, its type is (vector t)
2016-07-16T18:38:51Z moore33: or (vector *)... whatever.
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2016-07-16T18:39:05Z Bike: emaczen: no, you subclass sequence
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2016-07-16T18:39:46Z Bike: you can't subclass list, because list is just (or cons null)
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2016-07-16T20:20:46Z Guest_984730: Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:20:53Z Guest_984730: sun is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:20:59Z Guest_984730: moon is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:21:10Z Guest_984730: stars are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:21:17Z Guest_984730: planets are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:21:26Z Guest_984730: galaxies are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:21:34Z Guest_984730: oceans are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:21:45Z Guest_984730: mountains are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:21:51Z Guest_984730: trees are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:21:58Z Guest_984730: mom is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:22:03Z Guest_984730: dad is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:22:10Z Guest_984730: boss is not doing Allah is doing
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2016-07-16T20:22:19Z Guest_984730: job is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:22:25Z Guest_984730: dollar is not doing Allah is doing
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2016-07-16T20:23:02Z Guest_984730: degree is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:23:11Z Guest_984730: medicine is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:23:19Z Guest_984730: customers are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:23:48Z Guest_984730: you can not get a job without the permission of allah
2016-07-16T20:24:06Z Guest_984730: you can not get married without the permission of allah
2016-07-16T20:24:27Z Guest_984730: nobody can get angry at you without the permission of allah
2016-07-16T20:24:37Z Guest_984730: light is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:24:53Z dwchandler: Xach
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2016-07-16T20:26:02Z Guest_984730: fan is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:26:11Z Guest_984730: businessess are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:26:18Z Guest_984730: america is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:26:31Z Guest_984730: fire can not burn without the permission of allah
2016-07-16T20:26:46Z Guest_984730: knife can not cut without the permission of allah
2016-07-16T20:26:55Z Guest_984730: rulers are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:27:07Z Guest_984730: governments are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:28:33Z Guest_984730: sleep is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:28:46Z Guest_984730: hunger is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:29:03Z Guest_984730: food does not take away the hunger Allah takes away the hunger
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2016-07-16T20:29:39Z Guest_984730: water does not take away the thirst Allah takes away the thirst
2016-07-16T20:29:53Z Guest_984730: seeing is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:30:01Z Guest_984730: hearing is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:30:08Z Guest_984730: seasons are not doing Allah is doing
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2016-07-16T20:30:18Z Guest_984730: weather is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:31:06Z jasom: Is rpg in charge of uiop as well as asdf?
2016-07-16T20:32:11Z Guest_984730: humans are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:32:20Z Guest_984730: animals are not doing Allah is doing
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2016-07-16T20:32:47Z Guest_984730: the best amongst you are those who learn and teach quran
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2016-07-16T20:33:31Z Guest_984730: one letter read from book of Allah amounts to one good deed and Allah multiplies one good deed ten times
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2016-07-16T20:34:33Z Guest_984730: hearts get rusted as does iron with water to remove rust from heart recitation of Quran and rememberance of death
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2016-07-16T20:35:29Z Guest_984730: heart is likened to a mirror
2016-07-16T20:35:51Z Guest_984730: when a person commits one sin a black dot sustains the heart
2016-07-16T20:36:48Z Fare: Does Allah debug my programs?
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2016-07-16T20:37:21Z Bike: depending on your interpretation of al-ghazali, quite possibly
2016-07-16T20:37:51Z Guest_984730: to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
2016-07-16T20:38:15Z ASau`` is now known as ASau
2016-07-16T20:38:50Z jasom: Fare: you might know this; do you have a tool to generate a valid sh command from run-program arguments, along with environment?  I'm about to write one to aid in some debugging.
2016-07-16T20:39:04Z jasom: Fare: uiop:run-program rather
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2016-07-16T20:41:57Z Fare: there's inferior-shell that might help
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2016-07-16T20:42:34Z Fare: not sure what you mean "along with environment", but considering the global suckiness of setenv, /usr/bin/env seems to be the portable solution.
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2016-07-16T20:42:45Z jasom: Fare: would you suggest that over uiop:run-program for running external programs?
2016-07-16T20:42:48Z Guest_984730: read book http://www.fazaileamaal.com
2016-07-16T20:43:16Z Fare: jasom: for non-trivial shell commands, inferior-shell (that sits on top of uiop:run-program, BTW) is what I would recommend.
2016-07-16T20:43:29Z Fare: it also handles splicing for you
2016-07-16T20:43:56Z Guest_984730: read book http://www.muntakhabahadith.com
2016-07-16T20:43:59Z rme: Hi Fare.  Haven't seen you in a while.
2016-07-16T20:44:01Z Fare: with its trivial meta-language to flatten sexp into shell commands.
2016-07-16T20:44:05Z Fare: Hi, rme!
2016-07-16T20:44:15Z Fare: new $dayjob won't let me IRC anymore
2016-07-16T20:44:20Z Fare: plus long commutes
2016-07-16T20:44:28Z jasom: Fare: thanks; I'll take a look at that.  What I'm thinking is that I've seen various batch that can output /usr/bin/env commands that you can paste into a posix shell to reproduce any issues with the external programs
2016-07-16T20:44:28Z rme: quoi de neuf?
2016-07-16T20:44:37Z Fare: working at bwater.com
2016-07-16T20:44:44Z Guest_984730: need spiritual teacher visit http://www.alhaadi.org.za
2016-07-16T20:44:59Z Guest_984730: allah created the sky without any pillars
2016-07-16T20:45:08Z Fare: Guest_984730, what does Allah think of polish notation?
2016-07-16T20:45:45Z Guest_984730: allah makes the sun rise from the east and Allah makes the sun set in the west
2016-07-16T20:45:54Z Fare: jasom: you can use inferior-shell's API to generate commands for you
2016-07-16T20:46:32Z rme: I'm still working nowhere.  That can't last forever, though.
2016-07-16T20:46:35Z jasom is reading up on inferior-shell
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2016-07-16T20:46:46Z jasom: Fare: were you involved in inferior-shell?  I notice it's from ITA
2016-07-16T20:46:57Z Fare: rme: I'll try to introduce Racket or Haskell there. Maybe Rust if they need system programming. Failing that, I'll generalize their use of Scala and/or Clojure.
2016-07-16T20:47:06Z Fare: jasom: I wrote inferior-shell.
2016-07-16T20:47:11Z Guest_984730: allah makes the day into the night and Allah makes the night into the day
2016-07-16T20:47:25Z Fare: I believe I started it before uiop:run-program, actually.
2016-07-16T20:47:43Z Fare: Guest_984730, what explains everything explains nothing.
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2016-07-16T20:48:08Z Fare: what implies everything is, by definition, false.
2016-07-16T20:48:25Z Guest_984730: allah gives life and Allah gives death
2016-07-16T20:48:34Z rme: Fare: I hope you're having at least some fun there.
2016-07-16T20:49:39Z Fare: been there one month. It's fun in some ways, but the current non-plan cannot last. They know it, and they want me to help.
2016-07-16T20:49:51Z Fare: to introduce solid software engineering practices.
2016-07-16T20:50:42Z Fare: I wish I could say Common Lisp had a chance there, but frankly, it's going to be Haskell, Racket, Scala or Clojure -- and the latter two only because they have a foot in the door.
2016-07-16T20:50:45Z jasom: Fare: good luck!  That's a thankless uphill battel that needs to be continuously fought
2016-07-16T20:50:55Z Fare: if it were me, I'd recommend the previous two.
2016-07-16T20:51:05Z Guest_984730: all creation are useless,worthless,hopeless
2016-07-16T20:51:21Z Fare: Guest_984730, are you a robot, or an actual brainwashed pakistani?
2016-07-16T20:51:32Z Fare: Can someone kick the allahbot?
2016-07-16T20:52:28Z Guest_984730: can not do
2016-07-16T20:52:46Z Guest_984730: can not benefit
2016-07-16T20:52:54Z Guest_984730: can not harm
2016-07-16T20:53:11Z Guest_984730: allah is the doer of each and everything
2016-07-16T20:53:36Z Guest_984730: when Allah wants us to stand we stand
2016-07-16T20:53:47Z Guest_984730: when Allah wants us to sit we sit
2016-07-16T20:54:01Z Guest_984730: i am not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:54:05Z oleo: admins!
2016-07-16T20:54:09Z oleo: ops!
2016-07-16T20:54:09Z Fare: jasom, no, I think they are quite open to change. The ball is in my court to convince them of which direction to steer to
2016-07-16T20:54:15Z Guest_984730: you are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:54:34Z Guest_984730: atom bomb is not doing Allah is doing
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2016-07-16T20:55:02Z Guest_984730: rice is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-16T20:55:43Z Guest_984730: all creation get together can not create one grain of rice
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2016-07-16T20:56:55Z Guest_984730: all humans get together can not stop rain
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2016-07-16T20:57:17Z Guest_984730: all humans get together can not make anybody hungry
2016-07-16T20:57:20Z Fare: Seems like this farmer purchased an old, run-down, abandoned farm with plans to turn it into a thriving enterprise. The fields are grown over with weeds, the farmhouse is falling apart, and the fences are collapsing all around. During his first day of work, the town preacher stops by to bless the man's work, praying, "May you and God work together to make this the farm of your dreams!" A few months later, the preacher stops by again to
2016-07-16T20:57:21Z Fare: call on the farmer. Lo and behold, it's like a completely different place — the farm house is completely rebuilt and in excellent condition, there is plenty of cattle and other livestock happily munching on feed in well-fenced pens, and the fields are filled with crops planted in neat rows. "Amazing!" the preacher says. "Look what God and you have accomplished together!" "Yes, reverend," replies the farmer, "but remember what th
2016-07-16T20:57:21Z Fare: e farm was like when God was working it alone!"
2016-07-16T20:58:32Z Fare: jasom: actually, ocaml is also a candidate, I suppose.
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2016-07-16T20:58:56Z Guest_984730: all humans get together can not move sun one second up or down
2016-07-16T20:58:56Z jasom: Fare: that's good to hear.  If you can get buy-in it's great.  I've seen teams that balked at making C code warning-free on gcc's default warning settings :(
2016-07-16T20:59:16Z Guest_984730: we can not count the hair on our head
2016-07-16T20:59:19Z rme: I kind of find ocaml appealing.
2016-07-16T20:59:36Z dwchandler: I like ocaml
2016-07-16T20:59:58Z jasom: There's a wall-street shop that is big into ocaml Jane street or something?
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2016-07-16T21:00:10Z rme: Yes, I believe so.
2016-07-16T21:00:18Z dwchandler: yeah, jane street
2016-07-16T21:00:28Z dwchandler: also facebook and bloomberg
2016-07-16T21:01:03Z Guest_984730: we can not count the rain drops
2016-07-16T21:01:06Z jasom: fb went on a spree of hiring PL people a few years back
2016-07-16T21:01:23Z Guest_984730: we can not count the particles of sand
2016-07-16T21:03:36Z Guest_984730: medicine has no power to cure
2016-07-16T21:04:19Z jasom: Fare: it looks like there is no way to get the output of a comand as unsigned-byte 8 with inferior-shell?
2016-07-16T21:04:22Z Fare: jasom: Jane Street Capital, indeed
2016-07-16T21:04:45Z Guest_984730: two people take same medicine one passes away and one does not
2016-07-16T21:04:48Z jasom: They blog about it a lot
2016-07-16T21:05:13Z Guest_984730: degree has no power to give job
2016-07-16T21:05:33Z Guest_984730: many people have degrees but do not have jobs
2016-07-16T21:06:37Z Guest_984730: sustenance does not depend on effort
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2016-07-16T21:07:21Z dwchandler: Yarom Minsky of Jane Street also has several good videos out
2016-07-16T21:07:30Z Guest_984730: one person is working very much but is earning very less
2016-07-16T21:07:51Z Guest_984730: other person is working very less but is earning very much
2016-07-16T21:08:05Z dwchandler: The video(s) on "Incremental" I found very interesting, and it made me think about how a CL implementation would look
2016-07-16T21:08:38Z dwchandler: https://blogs.janestreet.com/seven-implementations-of-incremental/
2016-07-16T21:09:15Z dwchandler: s/Yarom/Yaron/
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2016-07-16T21:10:14Z jasom: Oh, I finally tracked down where the kw args are passed, and it does eventually pass any extra keys to uiop:run-program so I can use :element-type still
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2016-07-16T21:11:20Z Fare: jasom: wait, do you want the stdout to be captured as bytes, or the command itself to be bytes?
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2016-07-16T21:11:31Z Fare: the former is easy, the latter will require deep hacking
2016-07-16T21:12:21Z Fare: I also want to steer $employer to use NixOS to build stuff.
2016-07-16T21:12:24Z jasom: Fare: stdout
2016-07-16T21:12:47Z jasom: Fare: Nix or NixOS?
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2016-07-16T21:13:09Z jasom: I'm thinking of actually using Nix on my next workstation; I've used it in a VM for a while, and played around with a liveCD on bare-metal
2016-07-16T21:13:15Z jasom: s/Nix/NixOS
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2016-07-16T21:38:31Z Fare: Nix to start with, NixOS eventually
2016-07-16T21:39:09Z Fare: I have my beef with NixOS. Its kernels and/or X drivers tend to not support recent hardware very well.
2016-07-16T21:39:42Z Fare: They use unpatched Linux kernels from upstream, whereas e.g. Ubuntu or RedHat spend a lot of time making one kernel version stable.
2016-07-16T21:40:10Z Fare: The NixOS team is missing a few dedicated kernel enthusiasts to make the hardware support solid.
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2016-07-17T01:54:44Z rumbler31: dear #lisp.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/320628
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2016-07-17T01:56:20Z Bike: remove the WITH clause (and have "finally (return flat-list)"
2016-07-17T01:57:05Z rumbler31: so what your saying is that a collect i into flat-list form causes flat-list to be created as a local var implicitly?
2016-07-17T01:57:22Z Bike: yes, exactly.
2016-07-17T01:57:38Z rumbler31: oh, clearly I sped through the docs too fast
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2016-07-17T01:58:27Z rumbler31: yes i see it now
2016-07-17T01:58:41Z Bike: i don't even know where it says that in the spec, it's just how it works
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2016-07-17T02:34:12Z rumbler31: Bike: 3rd paragraph 6.1.3 "the var argument is bound as if constructed by with"  just a simple sentence of course
2016-07-17T02:34:24Z rumbler31: that I failed to read
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2016-07-17T02:59:05Z ben_vulpes: is there a multiple-class version of with-slots? eg (with-slots-and-classes ((slot1 slot1)) class1 ((slot2 slot2)) class2 (some-fn-depending-on slot1 slot2))?
2016-07-17T03:01:43Z Bike: er, no. you mean all for one object?
2016-07-17T03:03:21Z ben_vulpes: no, 2 objects. class1->obj1, class2->obj2 (of different classes)
2016-07-17T03:04:44Z Bike: so just a nested (with-slots ... (with-slots ...))?
2016-07-17T03:05:29Z ben_vulpes: mhm. i was hoping to avoid nesting with-slots, but it's the farthest thing from a big deal.
2016-07-17T03:06:07Z Bike: there's no macro for it. pretty easy to write of course, or you can use that general nest macro fare had.
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2016-07-17T03:13:06Z ben_vulpes: maybe when i'm a grownup i'll start writing macros
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2016-07-17T03:23:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-17T03:25:00Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-07-17T03:53:18Z beach: I am finally making progress with my source-tracking reader.  The idea is to create what I call a "concrete syntax tree" or CST which wraps each expression read in a class instance that also provides source location.
2016-07-17T03:54:00Z beach: And I will use something very similar for the incremental reader that I plan to use for Second Climacs.
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2016-07-17T03:59:03Z rumbler31: is there a concise way of removing a property and its value from a plist without explicitly doing it all yourself?
2016-07-17T04:00:02Z Bike: why do you want to do that?
2016-07-17T04:00:26Z beach: clhs remf
2016-07-17T04:00:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_remf.htm
2016-07-17T04:00:33Z Bike: oh, forgot that one.
2016-07-17T04:00:36Z rumbler31: bike: me?
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2016-07-17T04:00:45Z Bike: ja.
2016-07-17T04:00:58Z Bike: not like it's a wrong thing to do, just wondering.
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2016-07-17T04:01:25Z rumbler31: i'm writing a macro that takes a "field" description as a plist, eventually to create stream reader/writer and clos class
2016-07-17T04:02:11Z rumbler31: i'm now at the point where I want to be able to specify that a field should be repeated, so like the next 3 things are "(voltage-reading :uint8)"
2016-07-17T04:02:21Z rumbler31: so i've added :repeat n
2016-07-17T04:02:45Z rumbler31: eventually to transform this into 3 counts of (voltage-reading-n :uint8) with the :repeat removed
2016-07-17T04:02:52Z axion: also, alexandria:delete-from-plist
2016-07-17T04:03:46Z rumbler31: so it would be convenient to remove repeat from the input plist, then generate the new names
2016-07-17T04:04:16Z Bike: i see. interfacing with a multimeter or something?
2016-07-17T04:04:23Z rumbler31: oh also, I add in :type in front of :unit8 later in the chain to make it a proper plist, so far i've decided to do this in order to save the user from having to specify :type a zillion times
2016-07-17T04:04:44Z rumbler31: bike: with telemetry from a vehicle
2016-07-17T04:04:51Z Bike: huh
2016-07-17T04:05:01Z rumbler31: so i have likely several hundred fields
2016-07-17T04:06:25Z rumbler31: a bit of a long story about why i'm doing it this way, but suffice it to say I have to process log files that were created by serializing the fields of several c++ classes
2016-07-17T04:07:11Z rumbler31: so i'm walking back through the serialization/deserialization in lisp.  knowing nothing of prior work in this space, i'm finding it valuable to stand it up myself for now
2016-07-17T04:07:53Z rumbler31: because i'm sure i'm not the first person to use common lisp for this sort of thing, and I only need a few more pieces of functionality to make it all work
2016-07-17T04:09:05Z totimkopf: is there a lisp channel for lisp web development?
2016-07-17T04:09:50Z edgar-rft: totimkopf: #lispweb
2016-07-17T04:12:10Z totimkopf: thank you edgar-rft
2016-07-17T04:14:38Z malisper: Hi, I'm trying to load drakma-async, but I'm getting the following error: http://pastie.org/10909547. The following is also printed to standard out: http://pastie.org/10909548
2016-07-17T04:15:22Z malisper: It seems to be a problem with cffi-grovel as I get the same problem when I try to load it.
2016-07-17T04:15:54Z malisper: I've tried editing the file to fix what the error message is about but I didn't manage to get it working.
2016-07-17T04:16:31Z malisper: Can someone help me try to fix this mess?
2016-07-17T04:17:07Z rumbler31: do other projects that use grovel work on your system? like is it a path issue?
2016-07-17T04:17:26Z rumbler31: do you know what is the subject of the grovel?
2016-07-17T04:18:12Z malisper: I believe cffi-grovel is supposed to be how you mix cffi with asdf.
2016-07-17T04:18:39Z malisper: When I try (ql:quickload :cffi-grovel) I get a similar error message.
2016-07-17T04:19:03Z rumbler31: what is the error message when you do that? also what platform and lisp are you using?
2016-07-17T04:19:28Z malisper: I tried upgrading my sbcl version to 1.3.7 and upgrading asdf to 1.3.7 but that didn't fix the problem.
2016-07-17T04:19:38Z Bike: that is not what cffi-grovel does, but that seems irrelevant
2016-07-17T04:20:13Z malisper: I'm on ubuntu 14.04
2016-07-17T04:21:26Z Bike: and the asd doesn't seem to have anything that even expands to that. confusing
2016-07-17T04:22:04Z Bike: just to check, you get this from (ql:quickload :static-vectors) too, right
2016-07-17T04:22:29Z malisper: I think it's while loading quicklisp/software/cffi_0.17.1/toolchain/c-toolchain.fasl
2016-07-17T04:22:46Z rumbler31: is there a simpler idiom for the following? http://paste.lisp.org/display/320638  calling (intern..) on a string creates a symbol name surrounded by ||, which is undesireable
2016-07-17T04:23:22Z Bike: rumbler31: nah, that's usual. you could use concatenate but it doesn't matter. STRING-UPCASEing the result will probably kill the || for you.
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2016-07-17T04:23:42Z Bike: malisper: i mean, the output fingers the static-vectors asd
2016-07-17T04:23:48Z rumbler31: bike: thanks i'll try it
2016-07-17T04:23:58Z Bike: or just "~a-STREAM-READER"
2016-07-17T04:24:11Z malisper: http://pastie.org/10909550
2016-07-17T04:24:19Z malisper: output fingers?
2016-07-17T04:24:32Z Bike: the output indicates that the static-vectors asd is the problem
2016-07-17T04:24:35Z Bike: so does this
2016-07-17T04:24:42Z rumbler31: bike: you're right
2016-07-17T04:24:44Z Bike: "error while trying to load definition for system static-vectors"
2016-07-17T04:25:07Z Bike: am i using antiquated idioms without realizing it...
2016-07-17T04:26:25Z Bike: the macroexpander for defsystem doesn't involve with-temporary-file either. what the hell
2016-07-17T04:27:01Z malisper: The system depends on cffi-grovel.
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2016-07-17T04:27:23Z Bike: can you quickload static-vectors or no
2016-07-17T04:27:27Z malisper: no.
2016-07-17T04:27:35Z malisper: That's what the paste right above is.
2016-07-17T04:27:57Z malisper: I think it's the file I mentioned because of http://pastie.org/10909552
2016-07-17T04:28:30Z malisper: It tries to load cffi-grovel from the asd and is failing.
2016-07-17T04:29:12Z malisper: (that's what I think is happening)
2016-07-17T04:29:28Z Bike: cffi-grovel doesn't depend on static-vectors or vice versa, so this doesn't make much sense
2016-07-17T04:29:49Z malisper: static-vectors depends on cffi-grovel
2016-07-17T04:29:50Z malisper: :defsystem-depends-on (#+(or allegro cmu ecl sbcl) :cffi-grovel)
2016-07-17T04:29:56Z malisper: ^from static-vectors asd
2016-07-17T04:29:57Z Bike: oh, oops
2016-07-17T04:30:34Z Bike: but then it shouldn't get as far as failing to load cffi-grovel since it says the problem is while macroexpanding the s-v defsystem
2016-07-17T04:31:11Z Bike: i guess it could just be completely failing to report the error correctly
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2016-07-17T04:32:18Z Bike: in which case, since the actual with-temporary-file :suffix is in c-toolchain, this is quite possibly a ridiculous asdf cffi incompatibility, which there are now multiple of i guess
2016-07-17T04:32:57Z malisper: b
2016-07-17T04:33:09Z malisper: accidentally hit a key.
2016-07-17T04:33:27Z malisper: Does the defsystem call that function?
2016-07-17T04:33:33Z malisper: During the expansion.
2016-07-17T04:33:49Z Bike: the expansion is a oneliner to (apply some-asdf-internal ...), hence my confusion
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2016-07-17T04:34:26Z Bike: you can see the possibly offending form in c-toolchain https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/f3f11078021266a009a813962c884a97d511b90f/toolchain/c-toolchain.lisp#L97
2016-07-17T04:35:03Z malisper: Yeah, I tried editing that, apparantly type: is also not a keyword supported by with-temporary-file
2016-07-17T04:35:08Z Bike: with-temporary-file accepts a :suffix on the latest version though
2016-07-17T04:35:10Z Bike: and also type
2016-07-17T04:35:22Z Bike: also accepts a :suffix on my machine where i have ASDF 3.1.5
2016-07-17T04:35:40Z malisper: hmm... maybe I'm doing something weird with asdf.
2016-07-17T04:35:45Z Bike: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/uiop/stream.lisp#L621
2016-07-17T04:35:48Z Bike: maybe. what's (asdf:asdf-version)
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2016-07-17T04:35:53Z malisper: 3.1.7
2016-07-17T04:36:22Z malisper: Although I'm loading it on top of the system one.
2016-07-17T04:36:23Z Bike: like you actually ran it rather than having installed 3.1.7 somewhere where it's not loaded for some reason? hm
2016-07-17T04:36:41Z malisper: by system one, I mean the one provided by sbcl.
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2016-07-17T04:37:21Z Bike: does github really not have a way to search commits...
2016-07-17T04:37:23Z malisper: The system one is 3.1.5
2016-07-17T04:37:35Z Bike: so they should both have an appropriate with-temporary-file
2016-07-17T04:37:38Z malisper: You can do github.com/user/repo/commit/commit-hash
2016-07-17T04:37:43Z malisper: commit is literal.
2016-07-17T04:37:53Z Bike: i mean, commit messages
2016-07-17T04:38:02Z Bike: anyway: does your uiop:with-temporary-file actually accept that argument
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2016-07-17T04:38:33Z malisper: The args list from slime says yes.
2016-07-17T04:38:50Z Bike: and yet when you load cffi-whatever it suddenly does not.
2016-07-17T04:39:08Z Bike: does (uiop:with-temporary-file (:pathname tmp :suffix "")) work?
2016-07-17T04:39:10Z malisper: Although that is with the system asdf and I get a different error message when trying to load cffi-grovel.
2016-07-17T04:39:53Z malisper: http://pastie.org/10909554
2016-07-17T04:39:59Z Bike: i'm thinking stick with the system asdf, it's one less variable and it ought to work
2016-07-17T04:40:08Z Bike: oh for god's sake.
2016-07-17T04:40:12Z Bike: that fucking error again
2016-07-17T04:40:18Z Bike: nevermind i guess
2016-07-17T04:40:37Z malisper: What does that mean?
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2016-07-17T04:41:12Z Bike: it means that in 3.1.something a uiop/os:os-cond macro was defined for obscure reasons, and your asdf doesn't know that it's a macro so it tries to interpret the cond branches as function calls
2016-07-17T04:41:34Z Bike: lots of people have this exact problem and it goes away when you upgrade asdf, but you are instead getting an impossible error when you do that
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2016-07-17T04:42:59Z malisper: What's the proper way to upgrade asdf. I was just copy-pasting https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.lisp into a file and loading it in my .sbclrc
2016-07-17T04:43:37Z Bike: hell if i know. i think that ought to work, though, asdf has all these "upgradability" provisions and is supposed to be loaded by cl:load
2016-07-17T04:44:03Z Bike: so does the uiop:with-temporary-file form work at the same time loading the system doesn't?
2016-07-17T04:45:22Z malisper: Suddenly it seems to work. Let me restart my lisp and make sure it still does.
2016-07-17T04:46:18Z malisper: So loading cffi-grovel works, but loading drakma-async doesn't with this error message: http://pastie.org/10909560
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2016-07-17T04:46:34Z Bike: fucking christ
2016-07-17T04:49:20Z malisper: There's also this message to standard out http://pastie.org/10909562
2016-07-17T04:49:38Z Bike: i'm just going to hope that's irrelevant
2016-07-17T04:49:50Z malisper: Yeah, I can load sb-rotate-byte directly.
2016-07-17T04:49:59Z Bike: this makes no sense either. it points to cffi-grovel:process-grovel-file, which ends up calling with-temporary-output like so https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/f3f11078021266a009a813962c884a97d511b90f/toolchain/c-toolchain.lisp#L110
2016-07-17T04:50:03Z Bike: no :suffix in sight
2016-07-17T04:50:30Z Bike: my only guess is you have some bizarre inconsistency somewhere
2016-07-17T04:50:31Z malisper: Maybe one of my .fasl got compiled with some messed up version of asdf.
2016-07-17T04:51:04Z Bike: nuke all the fasls, upgrade quicklisp dists, upgrade everything that hasn't been upgraded, hope
2016-07-17T04:51:26Z malisper: Is there a way to nuke all of them? Just delete the directory?
2016-07-17T04:51:45Z Bike: yeah just delete all the fasl files.
2016-07-17T04:53:05Z malisper: no luck
2016-07-17T04:53:54Z malisper: I found the source of the :suffix
2016-07-17T04:54:05Z malisper: process-grovel-file calls link-executable
2016-07-17T04:54:14Z Bike: yes, which calls invoke, which calls invoke-cc
2016-07-17T04:56:00Z malisper: Suddenly my with-temporary-file doesn't take all of the arguments according to the args list.
2016-07-17T04:56:05Z malisper: from slime
2016-07-17T04:56:31Z Bike: and (uiop:with-temporary-file (:pathname tmp :suffix "")) fails?
2016-07-17T04:57:09Z malisper: When I jump to source it takes me to some version of asdf 3.0.3
2016-07-17T04:57:25Z malisper: So somehow this older version is getting loaded.
2016-07-17T04:57:53Z Bike: and (asdf:asdf-version) reports that old version?
2016-07-17T04:58:03Z malisper: It reports the 3.1.5
2016-07-17T04:58:11Z Bike: oh come on
2016-07-17T04:58:19Z Bike: well actually that might just be the source lookup being fucked up.
2016-07-17T04:58:35Z Bike: but the actual uiop:w-t-f call i provided does fail?
2016-07-17T04:58:59Z malisper: Yes, unknown keyword arg :suffix.
2016-07-17T04:59:18Z Bike: did you mention your (lisp-implementation-version)? what is it?
2016-07-17T04:59:28Z malisper: sbcl 1.3.7
2016-07-17T05:00:24Z malisper: The old version of asdf is in /usr/share/common-lisp/source/cl-asdf does that directory mean anything to you?
2016-07-17T05:00:28Z Bike: so the bundled asdf is definitely not 3.0.3
2016-07-17T05:00:41Z Bike: did you install asdf from debian or something?
2016-07-17T05:01:15Z malisper: If I did I don't remember it.
2016-07-17T05:01:33Z malisper: I'm purging them right now.
2016-07-17T05:02:01Z malisper: It seems that apt-get knows I have cl-asdf:3.0.3
2016-07-17T05:02:05Z Bike: good move. sbcl's bundled asdf should be in sbcl's contrib directory
2016-07-17T05:02:12Z Bike: and debian tends to install really old stuff
2016-07-17T05:02:47Z malisper: It seems that everything loaded.
2016-07-17T05:03:22Z malisper: I haven't tried running any code yet, but it seems that that fixed the problem!
2016-07-17T05:03:26Z malisper: Thanks!
2016-07-17T05:03:58Z Bike: thank the spirits
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2016-07-17T05:43:40Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320639  my debugger is telling me that subparam is nil at the time the rest of the variables are being established, so the push to subtype-list is failing
2016-07-17T05:44:10Z rumbler31: i'd expect that subparam would be bound to the first item in forms, the debugger is telling me that forms is correct
2016-07-17T05:45:14Z rumbler31: what am I missing?
2016-07-17T05:45:16Z H4ns: you want FOR instead of WITH
2016-07-17T05:45:31Z Bike: yeah, with bindings are outside of for bindings, i'm... almost sure
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2016-07-17T05:45:59Z rumbler31: oh
2016-07-17T05:46:00Z H4ns: rumbler31: you're not expecting anyone else to ever understand your code, or do you?
2016-07-17T05:46:22Z rumbler31: lol no I am not
2016-07-17T05:46:32Z rumbler31: but suggestions are welcome
2016-07-17T05:46:32Z H4ns: ok, just making sure :)
2016-07-17T05:47:07Z rumbler31: I guess this behavior is implied where the clhs says that with forms are equivalent to a let with the vars outside of the loop, so I guess it makes sense in hindsight that they souldn't be able to see the for
2016-07-17T05:47:27Z Bike: yeah, plus with only binds once, so it wouldn't update for each subparam
2016-07-17T05:47:48Z rumbler31: derpppppp
2016-07-17T05:47:52Z rumbler31: loop can get confusing......
2016-07-17T05:49:06Z rumbler31: H4ns:  I'm processing forms of the type (name :type :ctype......
2016-07-17T05:50:05Z rumbler31: eventually they become such things as slot specifications, or (setf (name-accessor obj) (read-uint8 stream))
2016-07-17T05:50:51Z rumbler31: now i'm adding :repeat logic, where if you have 3 of the same type of field, or for instance are reading in an array of values, you can simply say (name :type :uint8 :repeat 3) which expands to 3 calls, where name is renamed name-1,name-2
2016-07-17T05:51:19Z rumbler31: i've considered making repeats into lists or vectors instead, but for my next trick, sometimes repeats are of whole c structs
2016-07-17T05:51:56Z rumbler31: like (devices :type nil :repeat 72 :forms ((id :uint8) (charged :bool)...
2016-07-17T05:52:32Z rumbler31: which will expand into (devices-1.id :type :uint8) (devices-1.charged :bool)...
2016-07-17T05:52:53Z rumbler31: i started out with allowing the user to omit the :type keyword which I later add back in to make processing plists work
2016-07-17T05:53:14Z rumbler31: so thats what i'm doing with adding :type back into the param list
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2016-07-17T05:57:18Z mrrtrump: I am so bad ass
2016-07-17T05:57:34Z mrrtrump: yaron brook of youtube is my own personal jesus christ
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2016-07-17T05:57:48Z mrrtrump is now known as gavino_himself
2016-07-17T05:57:50Z gavino_himself: hi all
2016-07-17T05:57:51Z gavino_himself: :)
2016-07-17T05:58:02Z gavino_himself: clone baldur gate in lisp yet?
2016-07-17T05:58:16Z gavino_himself: lisp powered pc in 1/10,000th the code?
2016-07-17T05:58:23Z gavino_himself: lists for everything
2016-07-17T05:58:31Z gavino_himself: no problem too complex
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2016-07-17T05:58:46Z gavino_himself: even a 9p ish abstraction so can write n launch jobs over network
2016-07-17T05:58:50Z gavino_himself: hmm
2016-07-17T05:59:02Z gavino_himself: I mean if that can be done with clever c
2016-07-17T05:59:09Z gavino_himself: what can be done with clever lisp?
2016-07-17T05:59:14Z gavino_himself: ay yi yi
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2016-07-17T06:19:08Z Fare: ben_vulpes, uiop:nest makes nesting more bearable.
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2016-07-17T07:57:55Z Grue`: the problem with nest is that it doesn't reduce complexity (e.g. number of parens) at all. or even increases it
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2016-07-17T08:54:05Z 
2016-07-17T08:54:05Z names: ccl-logbot DavidGu Walex _eko mishoo__ ``Erik DeadTrickster yeticry kushal prolle protist f- aries_liuxueyang angavrilov yenda rumbler31 Griff`Ron zeissoctopus vlatkoB gingerale ggole gavino_himself ukari peey edgar-rft hiyosi schoppenhauer rjnw Anselmo smokeink przl_ moei adhoc[] oleo_ seg fe[nl]ix Blkt emaczen deank tristero gendl Velveeta_Chef nullman scymtym marusich Oladon StephanLahl karswell Lord_Nightmare phadthai eagleflo ASau puchacz Amaan
2016-07-17T08:54:05Z names: fiddlerwoaroof yrdz jason_m SumoSudo easye ffmpex_ notalaser AntiSpamMeta d4ryus eschatologist danlentz groovy2shoes Harag z0d euphoria- marsjaninzmarsa Khisanth jdz Tristam pok msb dougk__ lemoinem minion specbot Orion3k phoe_krk beach nzambe holly2 Zackio DGASAU ym TMA setheus schjetne yrk M-Illandan M-moredhel whiteline justinabrahms DrCode whartung reepca mikaelj jean377 jsgrant ksool HDurer shifty loke roscoe_tw Kaisyu trinque heurist vlnx dwchandler
2016-07-17T08:54:05Z names: dmiles moredhel shaftoe norfumpit kjeldahl pillton thijso aeth mtd cyberlard pavelpenev sulky_ Quadrescence Mon_Ouie mathrick John[Lisbeth] tessier vhost- Zhivago jtz dxtr hjudt aindilis2 gigetoo sellout foom cmatei watersoul_ the_signalman froggey quasisane cky ft joga Pent kolko leo_song knobo1 ChibaPet gema` burtons add^_ mr_robot nxnfufunezn kilimanjaro Oxford CrazyEddy pootler_ bbz_ musegarden4 swflint low-profile WojciechK wolf_mozart arrsim cyraxjoe
2016-07-17T08:54:05Z names: |3b| brucem zkat Subfusc gko cross zwdr trinitr0n Kruppe pchrist Neet drmeister MorTal1ty adlai faheem danieli keix octo_ russell-- alphor vktec billstclair mordocai PuercoPop Lord_of_Life heddwch tanuzzo stee PlasmaStar nopf zaquest neuri8 johs sfa ferada Cthulhux ck_ sz0 davsebamse CEnnis91 Firedancer ivan4th Nikotiini banjiewen rgrau Tordek nydel wooden_ Blukunfando totimkopf troydm jself mingus shymega EDT salva0 taij33n tippenein nhandler itscaleb
2016-07-17T08:54:05Z names: thomas justinmcp tobel SAL9000 theBlackDragon j0ni tilpner loke` joshe asedeno ristur p_l Grue` killmaster rotty yang cpt_nemo fouric clog voidlily shikhin zymurgy habs kini akkad sigjuice dan64 d4gg4d White_Flame j_king zyoung ski trig-ger hydraz reb`` sebboh Zotan ineiros cmbntr emma forgot mood vsync joast derrida Posterdati oGMo oystewh Patzy snits redline6561 dlowe cmpitg anunnaki jsnell AeroNotix failproofshark finnrobi_ sausages gensym sswords qlkzy
2016-07-17T08:54:05Z names: cell mjl Oddity mnoonan spacebat2 vaporatorius Intensity micro` jurov bounb jasom dilated_dinosaur john-mcaleely angular_mike sytse sbryant ggherdov splittist wyan gbyers el-mikl josteink lpaste GGMethos gypsydave5 funnel zbigniew joachifm Aethiles lieven housel ben_vulpes Fade les` Xach djh_ NaNDude xantoz flip214 creat gz__ kbtr tkd zeroish eli clop NhanH otwieracz Whip H4ns antoszka drot drforr1 tokenrov1 yeltzooo9 Mandus ssake__ honkfestival o`connor_
2016-07-17T08:54:05Z names: ozzloy Colleen arpunk stux|RC-only jackdaniel lxpz dsp- djinni` brandonz lancetw rvirding l1x @XachX_ askatasuna newcup ecraven Thulsadum xristos ircbrowse abbe gabot benny ramus eMBee cibs axion isoraqathedh drdo arrdem tiago dim sshirokov jackc- Odin- mj12` __main__ zerac wizzo luis samebchase BrianKrent ec\ mrSpec tomaw renard_ aap someone _death anachrome vert2 ahungry nightfly misv tokik Ober_ constantinexvi erg copec p_l|back1p Kooda velvetcore
2016-07-17T08:54:05Z names: grindhold trn
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2016-07-17T08:59:26Z Grue`: rumbler31: most complicated things can be split into several less complicated things
2016-07-17T09:00:19Z rumbler31: grue`:yes  i get lured by loop and then find it difficult to make loop work for my needs, but I have a hard time seeing this in advance
2016-07-17T09:03:28Z beach: rumbler31: The usual rule, i.e., "create abstractions" applies to what you want to accomplish in a loop as well.
2016-07-17T09:18:14Z rumbler31: this is probably a dumb question. but if I've read in an integer from a stream but need to treat is as a signed value, do I need to do the math myself, or is there a function I can't seem to find that takes care of this?
2016-07-17T09:19:07Z beach: Is it a character stream?
2016-07-17T09:20:25Z rumbler31: no, unsigned-byte stream
2016-07-17T09:21:00Z beach: Do you mean "byte" as in 8 bits?
2016-07-17T09:21:22Z rumbler31: well I have multiple length bytes, but for starters, yes
2016-07-17T09:21:55Z beach: If you don't know the length, there is no way to treat it as a signed value in a unique way.
2016-07-17T09:22:10Z rumbler31: well i know the length when I read them
2016-07-17T09:22:51Z rumbler31: in other words, I read in 32 bit ints, 8 bit ints, etc, its just that when I'm done reading what I need, I want to take the value and make lisp treat it like a negative number as if it were such in two's complement
2016-07-17T09:23:23Z jackdaniel: rumbler31: there is a library binary-types
2016-07-17T09:23:28Z jackdaniel: which is perfect for such mangling
2016-07-17T09:23:39Z beach: You need to subtract (expt 2 length) when the value is greater than or equal to (expt 2 (1- length)).
2016-07-17T09:23:49Z beach: ... in case you want to do it yourself.
2016-07-17T09:24:12Z rumbler31: thanks all
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2016-07-17T09:26:00Z rumbler31: ooohkkk... it looks like i've been reimplementing this whole library
2016-07-17T09:26:10Z rumbler31: fantastic
2016-07-17T09:26:40Z jackdaniel: binary-types has also some extension, not sure how it was called
2016-07-17T09:26:43Z jackdaniel: I'm glad I could help :)
2016-07-17T09:29:22Z jackdaniel: here: http://slitch.cvs.sourceforge.net/slitch/slitch/src/
2016-07-17T09:29:25Z jackdaniel: binary-types-extra
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2016-07-17T09:43:52Z dim: is the overhead of calling a CLOS method that important compared to a simple defun? I might have to do that in a tight loop, but inside an handler-case which I think has some slowness factor already...
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2016-07-17T10:00:30Z jackdaniel: dim: in current implementations calling CLOS method is at least 3x slower than calling ordinary function (given that the computed method combination is in the cache)
2016-07-17T10:00:36Z jackdaniel: it may be worse of course
2016-07-17T10:00:50Z jackdaniel: dim: you may be interested in https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function/ for improvements
2016-07-17T10:01:47Z dim: well plan B here is to have a generic function that returns a lambda, so that I can funcall the lambda in the tight loop and just call the method in the loop setup
2016-07-17T10:01:57Z dim: how does that sound?
2016-07-17T10:02:25Z dim: plan C is to just have a direct hard-coded call for now as I won't use the flexibility yet ;-)
2016-07-17T10:02:56Z jackdaniel: returning lambda sounds like a sane hack, I'd go with the inlined-generic-function though ;)
2016-07-17T10:03:37Z jackdaniel: and if you don't need the flexibility (and won't need) just use defun imo
2016-07-17T10:03:51Z dim: I will need it, someday
2016-07-17T10:04:21Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't use defun in such case (out of laziness :)
2016-07-17T10:04:37Z dim: basically I'm improving pgloader so that PostgreSQL is going to be one of the supported output driver rather than the only possible one, so the function `format-vector-row' will need to be specialized on the driver
2016-07-17T10:04:49Z dim: currently I don't have any other output driver yet, tho
2016-07-17T10:05:22Z jackdaniel: returning lambda or relying on the library I've mentioned sounds like a good fit here
2016-07-17T10:05:27Z jackdaniel: I've got to go, sorry
2016-07-17T10:05:34Z dim: I still want to organize the code that way to solve some advanced use cases for “catalog merging” (see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/400 if you're interested in the details)
2016-07-17T10:05:35Z jackdaniel: design is hard :)
2016-07-17T10:05:41Z dim: it is
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2016-07-17T10:05:58Z dim: it's not my first refactoring, but the hardest yet I think (in pgloader at least)
2016-07-17T10:06:10Z dim: jackdaniel: thanks for your valuable input, have fun!
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2016-07-17T10:09:51Z dim: I don't have a way to know which driver is going to be used at compile time, I guess it makes inlined-generic-function useless for me here
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2016-07-17T10:22:26Z Grue`: the generic function can be format-vector-rows, i.e. contain the whole loop
2016-07-17T10:25:52Z Grue`: and if loop duplication is a problem, it can be refactored into a macro
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2016-07-17T10:27:49Z dim: interesting, how would you dispatch from within the macro?
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2016-07-17T10:35:36Z Grue`: (defmethod format-vector-rows ((engine db-engine)) (loop-over-rows ...custom code here...))
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2016-07-17T10:47:14Z beach: dim: You can always hope that implementations rush to adopt the SICL technique for generic dispatch. :)
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2016-07-17T11:55:21Z dim: beach: hehe
2016-07-17T11:55:44Z dim: beach: my current top-entry of what I wish implementations would do is for SBCL GC to be less conservative :/
2016-07-17T11:56:45Z dim: and for CCL to not depend on some obscure fork of gcc to bootstrap its build so that it may find its way as an official debian package
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2016-07-17T13:41:51Z sjl: load-time-value seems to not pass through multiple values... is there a way to work around that?
2016-07-17T13:41:59Z sjl: aside from packaging the load time thing into a list?
2016-07-17T13:42:05Z sjl: I can do that but it seems ugly...
2016-07-17T13:42:41Z beach: Several LOAD-TIME-VALUEs?
2016-07-17T13:43:09Z beach: (multiple-value-bind (x y) (values (load-time-value 1) (load-time-value 2)) ...)
2016-07-17T13:45:52Z beach: Since it is LOAD-TIME-VALUE there should be no run-time performance penalty.
2016-07-17T13:45:52Z sjl: I need one value to compute the other
2016-07-17T13:45:59Z sjl: ex:
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2016-07-17T13:46:21Z sjl: (load-time-value ((foo 1) (bar (compute-from foo)) (values foo bar))
2016-07-17T13:46:33Z sjl: er
2016-07-17T13:46:36Z sjl: should be a (let in there
2016-07-17T13:46:44Z sjl: let*
2016-07-17T13:47:34Z beach: Does compute-from have side effects?
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2016-07-17T13:49:20Z sjl: it does things to foo
2016-07-17T13:49:22Z sjl: heh
2016-07-17T13:49:45Z sjl: context: I have a prolog vm and want to write a compiler macro to precompute the bytecode for constant queries
2016-07-17T13:50:09Z beach: What surrounds (load-time-value ...) in your code?  Presumably multiple-value-bind?
2016-07-17T13:50:22Z sjl: so normally when you say (query (likes sally ?who)) it would compile that list into prolog bytecode at runtime, load it into the VM, then run the VM loop
2016-07-17T13:50:29Z sjl: (multiple-value-call ...)
2016-07-17T13:51:01Z sjl: but the compilation process is expensive, and for constant queries we have everything we need to produce the bytecode once at compile time
2016-07-17T13:52:00Z beach: Nothing prevents you from calling compute-from twice, unless it has side effects other than to foo.
2016-07-17T13:53:07Z beach: (values (load-time-value (let ((foo 1)) foo)) (load-time-value (let ((foo 1)) (compute-from foo))))
2016-07-17T13:53:33Z beach: There is probably a better way, but I am not sufficiently alert to figure out something better.
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2016-07-17T14:07:59Z ggole: A list seems pretty reasonable...
2016-07-17T14:10:26Z beach: Not if it needs to be taken apart at runtime.
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2016-07-17T14:13:49Z ggole: Seems pretty cheap compared to running a prolog compiler.
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2016-07-17T14:14:08Z ggole: I guess it's reasonable to want to remove even that, though.
2016-07-17T14:18:09Z sjl: oh yeah taking apart a three-element list is basically nothing compared to the cost of actually running the query
2016-07-17T14:18:14Z sjl: I'm not worried about that
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2016-07-17T14:21:15Z sjl: yeah okay witht he compiler macro running a simple query four million times goes from 17 seconds to 2.5 seconds
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2016-07-17T16:44:23Z shka: hey folks
2016-07-17T16:44:31Z shka: i'm trying to use qtools on arch linux
2016-07-17T16:44:49Z shka: i installed qtools via ql
2016-07-17T16:45:19Z shka: but when i'm trying to call anything from it i'm getting
2016-07-17T16:45:32Z shka: Unable to load any of the alternatives:
2016-07-17T16:45:33Z shka:    ("libcommonqt.so.1.0.0" "libcommonqt.so.1" "libcommonqt.so")
2016-07-17T16:45:56Z shka: despite those libs located in quicklisps directories
2016-07-17T16:46:13Z shka: i'm puzzled and not sure what exactly is going on here
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2016-07-17T16:59:05Z Grue`: shka: try installing commonqt through package manager
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2016-07-17T16:59:36Z Grue`: don't know which one arch linux uses, but it will definitely put them into the right place
2016-07-17T17:05:37Z shka: right
2016-07-17T17:05:50Z shka: i thought that ql can handle it
2016-07-17T17:05:57Z shka: but' that's ok
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2016-07-17T17:12:10Z gavino_himself: oh yeah!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPygQgPiR0I
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2016-07-17T17:22:36Z shka: Grue`: thanks for tip, i don't have it as package, will build and install from scratch
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2016-07-17T17:23:35Z shka: gavino_himself: jest tell me, is he talking about trump?
2016-07-17T17:27:26Z shka: Grue`: although, qmake does not generate install target, so i have to ask: should i put it in the /usr/local/lib in order for lisp code to see it?
2016-07-17T17:27:30Z gavino_himself: nop he does not like trumpster
2016-07-17T17:27:37Z shka: good
2016-07-17T17:27:49Z gavino_himself: he infact says an inanimate object would be best president according to some
2016-07-17T17:27:52Z gavino_himself: veto everything
2016-07-17T17:27:58Z gavino_himself: sign defense spending bill
2016-07-17T17:28:23Z ChibaPet: gavino_himself: Trump's hair will be the power behind the presidency.
2016-07-17T17:28:34Z gavino_himself: I tend to agree expcetp need sign get rid of fed, all money to education from gov, and end case law and all regs
2016-07-17T17:28:42Z gavino_himself: ban debt
2016-07-17T17:29:00Z gavino_himself: legal courts, cheap, and property, gov budget 1% gdp
2016-07-17T17:29:13Z gavino_himself: objectivist view
2016-07-17T17:29:25Z gavino_himself: trump built skyscrapers
2016-07-17T17:29:38Z gavino_himself: usa could use some new stuff ahead of schedule and udner budget
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2016-07-17T17:30:08Z ChibaPet: Then again, we were at our peak during the Apollo era, where spending was huge.
2016-07-17T17:31:13Z shka: on topic though
2016-07-17T17:32:30Z shka: how can one figure where load-foreign-library searches for so files? i see that search-path is nil
2016-07-17T17:32:37Z shka: in debugger, that's it
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2016-07-17T17:33:06Z shka: and preferable, how to tell quicklisp to search in specific paths
2016-07-17T17:35:44Z XachX_: shka: for foreign libraries?
2016-07-17T17:35:51Z shka: yes
2016-07-17T17:36:18Z XachX_: shka: it doesn't deal with those. That's a cffi thing usually. Don't know how cffi does it.
2016-07-17T17:36:33Z shka: thanks for answer
2016-07-17T17:36:45Z shka: at least now i know where to look :-)
2016-07-17T17:36:51Z shka: have a good evening, btw
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2016-07-17T17:42:24Z gavino_himself: apolloo?
2016-07-17T17:42:27Z gavino_himself: greece?
2016-07-17T17:42:39Z gavino_himself: USA growth was at its peak in 19th century
2016-07-17T17:42:50Z gavino_himself: with almost no regulation and gov budget
2016-07-17T17:43:05Z gavino_himself: if no welfare state 1940
2016-07-17T17:43:11Z gavino_himself: gdp be 80T by now
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2016-07-17T17:48:30Z ChibaPet: It's odd encountering this viewpoint in #lisp.
2016-07-17T17:49:49Z rumbler31: known troll will troll
2016-07-17T17:50:06Z rumbler31: in other news though, #emacs will get rather political at times
2016-07-17T17:50:07Z ChibaPet: Ah.
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2016-07-17T17:50:39Z ChibaPet: I never have the bandwidth to follow #emacs. I try and then give up, regularly.
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2016-07-17T17:54:02Z pierpa: if people /ignored trolls then ignoring them would be more effective for us who do.
2016-07-17T17:54:46Z ChibaPet: Yes. Sorry. Doing so now.
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2016-07-17T17:58:48Z fourier: pierpa: thanks for the tip!
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2016-07-17T18:08:57Z rumbler31: my client doesn't do ignore
2016-07-17T18:09:03Z rumbler31: scratch that
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2016-07-17T18:23:33Z pierpa: rumbler31: I'm no IRC expert, but I think it's a server command, your client does not need to do anything
2016-07-17T18:23:48Z pierpa: (but I may be wrong)
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2016-07-17T18:25:41Z pierpa: indeed I'm wrong. Scratch that :)
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2016-07-17T18:41:40Z rumbler31: i tried a few other commands i found online that didn't work
2016-07-17T18:42:03Z rumbler31: I didn't try ignore till you mentioned it
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2016-07-17T19:30:47Z rumbler31: #lisp I need help
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2016-07-17T19:31:09Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320682
2016-07-17T19:31:09Z rumbler31: I know its not the prettiest code
2016-07-17T19:31:22Z rumbler31: the top of the paste
2016-07-17T19:31:47Z rumbler31: shows a result of tracing the two lower functions
2016-07-17T19:33:20Z rumbler31: I'm expecting the result to be (a-1.b-1... (a-1.b-2... (a-1.c  ... all the way to (a-3.b-1... (a-3.b-2 .... (a-3.c
2016-07-17T19:34:05Z rumbler31: following the trace, everything is working up until the last call, where for some reason, :repeat is being removed from every other list somehow!!!!
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2016-07-17T19:36:42Z rumbler31: the idea here is that if a param has both :repeat and :forms, the name of the param will be propagagted to subforms, or if the param only has :repeat, :repeat will be removed and that many copies of the param will be created in stead.  in either case, the resulting lists will be prepended to the current set of lists to parse and this process will continue until there are no more forms with :repeat calls
2016-07-17T19:36:58Z rumbler31: I just can't for the life of me figure out how the (remf :repeat is somehow being propagated to the entire list
2016-07-17T19:37:24Z rumbler31: instead of just the current parameter in question
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2016-07-17T19:40:06Z Bike: as concerns prettiness, you should replace that progn with (stream-reader-expander (append (repeat-helper param) rest))
2016-07-17T19:40:41Z Bike: for the actual problem, i don't remotely understand what this is for, what's a simple call, expected result, and actual result?
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2016-07-17T19:41:23Z rumbler31: so something like (param-name :repeat 3)
2016-07-17T19:41:46Z Bike: No, I mean what function are you actually calling
2016-07-17T19:41:47Z rumbler31: will expand to ((param-name-1) (param-name-2) (param-name-3))
2016-07-17T19:41:49Z rumbler31: oh
2016-07-17T19:41:52Z Bike: lisp forms
2016-07-17T19:42:05Z rumbler31: er
2016-07-17T19:42:52Z rumbler31: annotated, if that's what you meant.  I didn't copy up high enough
2016-07-17T19:43:20Z axion: can you try without a list literal
2016-07-17T19:43:26Z axion: replace ' with (list ..)
2016-07-17T19:43:30Z rumbler31: and I think I see my problem.  the tails of the type-list are all the same.
2016-07-17T19:43:35Z Bike: or just (copy-list '...)
2016-07-17T19:43:54Z Bike: oh. yeah, this is wrong
2016-07-17T19:44:01Z Bike: for rest... collect (push ... rest) is bizarre
2016-07-17T19:44:18Z Bike: i doubt that does what you want it to, whatever that is
2016-07-17T19:44:40Z Bike: and modifying the cdr chain of a list you're traversing is usually illegal, i think even with loop
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2016-07-17T19:46:40Z rumbler31: that was my original approach which failed
2016-07-17T19:46:59Z Bike: what do you mean? this is in the code i see here
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2016-07-17T19:47:18Z rumbler31: the rest collect
2016-07-17T19:47:20Z Bike: note that it doesn't /actually/ modify the cdr chain, that push is a no-op if i'm not mistaken
2016-07-17T19:47:48Z rumbler31: i'm taking off the (car of the param and replacing it with my own, and putting it back together with whatever was left of the param
2016-07-17T19:48:18Z Bike: i'm not totally sure what this code does but it's not that
2016-07-17T19:48:50Z Bike: and for that you should just (setf (car ...) ...)
2016-07-17T19:49:36Z rumbler31: in the top collect form, I'm simply creating a new name, the car of the original param, and pushing that onto the cdr of the param
2016-07-17T19:49:52Z Bike: that's what you think you're doing but it's not happening
2016-07-17T19:50:02Z Bike: (push ... rest) just modifies the local variable 'rest', it doesn't touch the list
2016-07-17T19:50:28Z rumbler31: no thats what I want, the param itself is a list
2016-07-17T19:50:43Z Bike: the local variable 'rest' is then immediately discarded on the next loop iteration
2016-07-17T19:51:24Z rumbler31: doesn't push return the result of the push call, in addition to modifying the place itself?
2016-07-17T19:51:29Z Bike: ok, yes
2016-07-17T19:51:40Z Bike: so replace push with cons and it's exactly the same but less confusing
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2016-07-17T19:52:05Z rumbler31: got it
2016-07-17T19:53:14Z Bike: so, back to the actual problem, this call you've provided, what do you get and what do you expect
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2016-07-17T19:54:51Z rumbler31: in the call, I expect ((a-1.b-1...) (a-1.b-2 ...) (a-1.c ...) ... (a-3.b-1 ...) (a-3.b-2 ...) (a-3.c ...))
2016-07-17T19:55:22Z Bike: so this a-2.b is wrong?
2016-07-17T19:55:28Z rumbler31: what I see happening is that after the first step, where I expand (a :repeat 3 :forms ((b :repeat 2) (c))
2016-07-17T19:55:41Z rumbler31: yes, because what it should have in it is also :repeat
2016-07-17T19:55:49Z rumbler31: and it did, up until the last call
2016-07-17T19:56:40Z rumbler31: the above gets expanded once into (a-1.b :repeat 2) ..(a-1.c ..) ...(a-3.b :repeat 2) (a-3.c)
2016-07-17T19:57:06Z rumbler31: after the next step, where the first (a-1.b :repeat 2) expands into (a-1.b-1 and a-1.b-2
2016-07-17T19:57:31Z rumbler31: somehow the returned list has (a-2.b and (a-3.b with no more :repeat)
2016-07-17T19:57:44Z rumbler31: as of the remf :repeat affected everything in the source list
2016-07-17T19:58:08Z Bike: hm, and it's not because the data is literal.
2016-07-17T19:58:24Z rumbler31: what i now think is that my creating new type-lists with different cars, somehow results in each list sharing the same tail, so when I do the remf they are all effected
2016-07-17T19:58:43Z Bike: well, yes, if they all have the same tail they will have the same tail.
2016-07-17T19:58:56Z rumbler31: I say this after pasting everything and musing earlier this week if I could remember the details of this problem
2016-07-17T19:59:23Z rumbler31: I don't seem to yet have an intuitive understanding of this
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2016-07-17T19:59:42Z rumbler31: i said the words and they make sense, but writing code that is aware of this is different
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2016-07-17T20:00:25Z Bike: ok yeah something is definitely modifying things it should not
2016-07-17T20:00:43Z rumbler31: ok then I guess its clear now
2016-07-17T20:00:53Z rumbler31: I store type-list when entering repeat-helper
2016-07-17T20:00:56Z Bike: yeah, ok, it's that when you do the copy you keep tails.
2016-07-17T20:01:25Z rumbler31: type-list will have :repeat in it once we get to that step, then later I remove it, then make new lists with type-list as the cdr
2016-07-17T20:01:32Z rumbler31: so then it goes away
2016-07-17T20:01:33Z Bike: try replacing the collect with (copy-list (cons (intern ...) rest)).
2016-07-17T20:02:40Z rumbler31: yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
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2016-07-17T20:04:33Z rumbler31: i come from c/c++, I've toyed with CL for a few years, definitely the majority of the work done in this last year.  this seems kind of fundamental and I don't know where I would have encountered it
2016-07-17T20:04:59Z axion: Yep that did it. I admit it's hard to follow that code. For starters, I would use loop's list destructuring, rather than making separate clauses doing it manually
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2016-07-17T20:06:49Z rumbler31: i continue to learn and forget parts of loop every time I use it
2016-07-17T20:07:06Z axion: (loop :for (subname . rest) :in forms ..)
2016-07-17T20:07:26Z rumbler31: -.- lol
2016-07-17T20:07:43Z rumbler31: i once tried for subname in forms for rest on forms
2016-07-17T20:08:01Z rumbler31: but i had other problems and that code got removed, it might have worked
2016-07-17T20:08:19Z rumbler31: actually no it didn't nm.
2016-07-17T20:08:28Z axion: above works for your case
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2016-07-17T20:08:40Z rumbler31: yes.
2016-07-17T20:09:19Z rumbler31: repeat-helper got hairy once I realized I wanted to support expanding both types of params, one that is simply an n copy of an exisitng param, and one that is an n copy of what is essentially a struct
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2016-07-17T20:11:10Z rumbler31: in the former case, simply remove the :repeat param and make n new lists, and in the latter case, propagate the name down to the sublists 1 level, and in both cases prepend the results to the current working set before proceeding, in order to go depth first (for no reason in particular) through all the :repeats until they are cleared up
2016-07-17T20:11:59Z rumbler31: I don't know how I would make that more concise yet, but this is really my first attempt at a substantial macro
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2016-07-17T20:16:23Z Xach: burn them to fasls, then burn the fasls
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2016-07-17T20:17:57Z rumbler31: ?
2016-07-17T20:18:10Z rumbler31: Bike: axion:  thank you.  I owe several people in this channel beers
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2016-07-17T22:18:38Z gavino_himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7fxhqCqefs
2016-07-17T22:18:59Z gavino_himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7fxhqCqefs
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2016-07-17T23:16:27Z Xach: gavino_himself: your exercise/singing video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkRHp4sIQqo is pretty interesting as well. but neither is #lisp worthy.
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2016-07-18T00:38:37Z emaczen: How do I get the name slot from a standard-method object?
2016-07-18T00:41:37Z pillton: The name slot?
2016-07-18T00:42:07Z emaczen: I'm inspecting a standard-method object with SLIME and it lists "name" as a slot.
2016-07-18T00:42:50Z emaczen: it also lists, "function", "generic-function", "lambda-list", "qualifiers", and "specializers" as slots.
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2016-07-18T00:42:57Z emaczen: I'm using CCL if that matters
2016-07-18T00:44:00Z pillton: It seems like a weird thing to want. What would you use it for?
2016-07-18T00:46:00Z emaczen: I figured it out... it is CCL specific
2016-07-18T00:46:41Z pillton: If you want the name of the generic function which the method is a member of you can use the following functions in the MOP.
2016-07-18T00:46:49Z pillton: mop method-generic-function
2016-07-18T00:46:49Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-generic-function.html
2016-07-18T00:46:55Z pillton: mop generic-function-name
2016-07-18T00:46:55Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-name.html
2016-07-18T00:47:44Z pillton: At least it would be (close to) portable across implementations with MOP support.
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2016-07-18T03:16:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-18T03:19:23Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-07-18T03:20:15Z pillton: cltl2 macroexpand-all
2016-07-18T03:20:31Z pillton: Doh.
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2016-07-18T03:23:12Z pillton: The function macroexpand-all is in SBCL's sb-cltl2 contrib but I can't seem to find its definition in the CLTL2 document.
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2016-07-18T03:26:03Z beach: It is not in the index of the book.
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2016-07-18T03:27:43Z beach: It is also very hard to implement.
2016-07-18T03:28:51Z pillton: I have never tried to implement it.
2016-07-18T03:29:06Z pierpa: there's no macroexpand in cltl2
2016-07-18T03:29:22Z pierpa: *macroexpand-all, sorry :)
2016-07-18T03:29:49Z pillton: beach: What is it hard?
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2016-07-18T03:30:27Z beach: pillton: It requires a complete code walker.
2016-07-18T03:30:36Z pierpa: it's impossible to implement portably
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2016-07-18T03:32:48Z pillton: pierpa: I know it is impossible to implement portably.
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2016-07-18T03:32:57Z Bike: well, that is why it is in an sbcl package
2016-07-18T03:33:30Z pierpa: then apart from that, it's just grunt work
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2016-07-18T03:36:14Z pillton: Don't compilers use macroexpand-all during minimal compilation?
2016-07-18T03:37:18Z beach: Something equivalent, yes.  But the result may not be in the form of Common Lisp code.
2016-07-18T03:37:38Z beach: The SICL compiler, for instance, generates abstract syntax trees as it traverses the source code.
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2016-07-18T03:38:36Z pillton: I see.
2016-07-18T03:39:08Z pillton: I think minimal compilation is a mistake personally.
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2016-07-18T03:41:10Z Bike: meaning, what, compilation should be allowed to be a no-op?
2016-07-18T03:41:16Z beach: It shouldn't be thought of as an explicit step.
2016-07-18T03:42:38Z pillton: Yeah. The compiler should, for example, be allowed to call macroexpand-all and if it can't perform the expansion, signal a warning to the user and revert back to the evaluation model.
2016-07-18T03:42:49Z Bike: if it... can't?
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2016-07-18T03:43:08Z Bike: what do you mean if it can't?
2016-07-18T03:43:44Z pillton: The evaluation model allows things like (let ((x 1)) (macrolet ((my-func () x)) (my-func))).
2016-07-18T03:43:57Z pillton: Minimal compilation doesn't.
2016-07-18T03:45:05Z Bike: if you write code like that you just shouldn't compile it
2016-07-18T03:45:45Z pillton: Exactly. It shouldn't disallowed though.
2016-07-18T03:45:50Z pillton: It shouldn't be..
2016-07-18T03:46:00Z Bike: so you should be allowed to call compile on it and have it fail?
2016-07-18T03:47:02Z pillton: The compiler shouldn't fail on the above example.
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2016-07-18T03:47:21Z pillton: If it can't do anything useful, fine, but it shouldn't fail.
2016-07-18T03:47:33Z Bike: But the behavior you described is signalling a warning and then not compiling.
2016-07-18T03:47:42Z Bike: which is failure
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2016-07-18T03:50:48Z pillton: I'm not sure I follow. All I am saying is that failure to expand macro functions because it references the runtime lexical environment is not grounds for failure.
2016-07-18T03:51:06Z Bike: it's grounds for failure to compile
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2016-07-18T03:51:39Z pillton: According to CL's compile it is which is what I think is a mistake.
2016-07-18T03:52:18Z Bike: no, even with your system it fails /to compile/, since the compilation can't proceed if a macroexpansion isn't known
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2016-07-18T03:53:05Z Bike: my-func could be anything. you could have (macrolet ((my-func () (read))) ...)
2016-07-18T03:53:40Z Bike: or rather, x bound to (read)
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2016-07-18T03:55:41Z pillton: The compiler can arrange for it to be evaluated.
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2016-07-18T03:58:33Z Bike: so you give up macros being easy so that you have a weird way to write (let ((x 1)) (eval x)).
2016-07-18T03:59:28Z pillton: Well, minimal compilation gives up on the evaluation model.
2016-07-18T03:59:46Z pillton: The evaluation model is simple.
2016-07-18T03:59:47Z Bike: or, of course, you might rely on the local environment, so now that has to be reified
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2016-07-18T04:07:25Z Bike: the evaluation model is simple and that simplicity makes it unsuitable for compilation
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2016-07-18T04:10:23Z Bike: all of the restrictions in 3.2.2.3 are set up so that compilation can actually do something, because with regular evaluation semantics everything is too fluid to allow for any compilation
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2016-07-18T04:11:33Z pillton: Sure, which is why I said the compiler should signal a warning for the example above.
2016-07-18T04:11:56Z Bike: which is what it does
2016-07-18T04:12:10Z Bike: then it returns something that signals an error
2016-07-18T04:12:10Z pillton: No. It gives up.
2016-07-18T04:12:56Z Bike: it gives up because it cannot proceed. i'm telling you, (my-func) is unanalyzable and could change anything in the lexical environment.
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2016-07-18T04:13:27Z Bike: the alternate response is to return something that just evaluates the entire thing dumbly, rather than signalling an error.
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2016-07-18T04:15:33Z Bike: going /away. good night
2016-07-18T04:15:44Z pillton: Night.
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2016-07-18T05:35:26Z beach is stumped.
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2016-07-18T05:36:08Z beach: I can't figure out how to organize the various versions of the reader that I need, and how to make those versions coexist with the native reader of each implementation.
2016-07-18T05:36:38Z beach: For one thing, I need a reader for Second Climacs, working as an incremental parser for Common Lisp buffer contents.
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2016-07-18T05:37:56Z beach: I am pretty convinced I can't use the readtable of the implementation for that, because there is no guarantee that the reader macros will actually call READ at all, so even if I replace CL:READ, it won't work.
2016-07-18T05:39:03Z beach: But if I use my own readtable, presumably with reader macros that call MY-PACKAGE:READ rather than CL:READ, then how can I take into account any customization of the reader?
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2016-07-18T06:01:28Z pillton: Can you run both in parallel and keep track of where they diverge?
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2016-07-18T06:05:54Z pillton: That isn't going to work.
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2016-07-18T06:08:53Z beach: Yeah, it's complicated.
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2016-07-18T06:09:32Z beach: I think I have to impose on users of Second Climacs to modify its readtable if they want any parsing beyond what the Common Lisp HyperSpec says.
2016-07-18T06:09:54Z beach: Anyway, got to go.  Monday mornings are crazy around here.
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2016-07-18T06:13:54Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2016-07-18T07:06:39Z reepca: arg... is there a simple way to get a string representation of a pathname? Basically like chopping the #P off of the printed representation, only not as crude?
2016-07-18T07:12:13Z jackdaniel: namestring?
2016-07-18T07:12:35Z reepca: oh huh
2016-07-18T07:12:36Z jackdaniel: (namestring #P"/bah/lah/ciah/buka.kuka")
2016-07-18T07:12:44Z reepca: I assumed that they'd all start with pathname-
2016-07-18T07:13:02Z reepca: well, that solves it. thanks.
2016-07-18T07:13:04Z jackdaniel: sure
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2016-07-18T07:23:33Z arandomguyhere: so (ctypecase foo (function (funcall foo))) switches on a function, what is the type specifier for macro?
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2016-07-18T07:49:59Z loke: arandomguyhere: What is it you want to do?
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2016-07-18T08:20:21Z loke: arandomguyhere: Please don't send private messages
2016-07-18T08:20:28Z loke: People are using this channel for a reason.
2016-07-18T08:21:05Z arandomguyhere: loke: sorry im using a new client and i didn't see that was private
2016-07-18T08:21:37Z loke: arandomguyhere: Anyway, TYPECASE doesn't "switch on a function"
2016-07-18T08:21:53Z loke: It switches on the type of the value
2016-07-18T08:21:56Z arandomguyhere: loke: it switches on a type identifier
2016-07-18T08:22:01Z loke: Correct.
2016-07-18T08:22:20Z arandomguyhere: loke: i wnt to know what the type of macro is
2016-07-18T08:22:29Z loke: There is no type of a macro
2016-07-18T08:22:41Z loke: macros are not fist-class objects.
2016-07-18T08:24:36Z arandomguyhere: loke: so there is no way to determine if what im looking at is a macro
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2016-07-18T08:25:12Z loke: arandomguyhere: Sure there is. You are _never_ "looking at" a macro. You can't look at a macro.
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2016-07-18T08:26:43Z arandomguyhere: loke: strange because im using typecase to determine if i am 'looking' at an integer or whatever type, so i can't look at it and determine a macro from something else say like a function
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2016-07-18T08:29:33Z kaotikus: o/
2016-07-18T08:30:23Z loke: arandomguyhere: Let me phrase it likle this (in order to hopefully get you to think about this the right way).
2016-07-18T08:30:56Z loke: arandomguyhere: Can you think of a way you can "put" a macro in a variable such that you would be in a position to perform the check you are asking for?
2016-07-18T08:31:26Z loke: (the answer is that there is no such way, but please think about it and try to write code to do it, this should hopefully enlighten you)
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2016-07-18T08:34:17Z arandomguyhere: loke: so there is no symbol foo (defmacro foo ()) that i can examine? the same way i examine (defun bar ()) and pass bar into typecase as the key?
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2016-07-18T08:34:34Z loke: arandomguyhere: There is a symbol, yes.
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2016-07-18T08:36:40Z arandomguyhere: loke: that symbol, bar works when i 'look' at it with typcase, and is correctly identified as a function and the appropriate expression is selected
2016-07-18T08:36:48Z loke: arandomguyhere: But while #'FOO (or, the equivalent: (function FOO)) returns the function object for the function bound to the symbol FOO, there is no such equivalent for macros.
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2016-07-18T08:37:52Z loke: Some CL implementations allws you to find the actual function that implements a macro. For example SBCL allows toy to do #'SOME-MACRO. But you can't actually so anything with that object, and it's not a standard feature.
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2016-07-18T08:38:19Z arandomguyhere: loke: (macro-function 'foo)
2016-07-18T08:38:36Z loke: arandomguyhere: Yes, but you can't do anything with that function.
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2016-07-18T08:42:19Z arandomguyhere: loke:  (defmacro foo () (print "foo")) (funcall (macro-function 'foo) nil nil)
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2016-07-18T08:42:35Z arandomguyhere: loke: is that not doing something with it? i just called it
2016-07-18T08:42:57Z loke: arandomguyhere: Yes, you're right. I realised that it's actually per spec.
2016-07-18T08:43:47Z loke: arandomguyhere: But the macro function is just another function. It can be used to manually perform macroexpansion. I have to admit that I have never had the need to use it, given the fact that I even thought it was an implementation extension.
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2016-07-18T08:44:35Z loke: But, you never did what I asked you to do. Exactly what is it you want to do? (give some context)
2016-07-18T08:44:49Z arandomguyhere: loke: So you don't know of a way to 'introspect' on that vs an actual function in typecase or otherwise at all
2016-07-18T08:45:22Z loke: The type of the thing returned from MACRO-FUNCTION is just a normal function,. but what is it you want to actually DO?
2016-07-18T08:47:06Z arandomguyhere: loke: (ctypecase foo (function (do something)) (a macro? (do different thing)))
2016-07-18T08:47:36Z loke: arandomguyhere: No. I asked what you are actually trying to do with this? What is the background. Where does FOO come from?
2016-07-18T08:48:35Z arandomguyhere: loke: It doesn't matter where foo comes from, i want to programmatically determine if this symbol is a macro function or a regular function and do something different depending
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2016-07-18T08:49:51Z loke: arandomguyhere: It does matter. Because you asking this suggests that you don't funny understand what it is you're doing. So the intention is to help you do it right.
2016-07-18T08:51:14Z loke: s/funny/fully/
2016-07-18T08:52:34Z arandomguyhere: loke: I'm fairly certain i know what i'm doing, i'm trying to determine if the value bound to this symbol is a function function or a macro function, because I want to know. It is a vacuum. There is no more to foo, or what i am trying to do with foo if it is a macro or not. I just want to determine if i can introspect with a fine grain like this or
2016-07-18T08:52:34Z arandomguyhere:  not.
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2016-07-18T08:53:04Z loke: Well, you can't. Because the return value of MACRO-FUNCTIOn is a plan function.
2016-07-18T08:53:06Z loke: plain
2016-07-18T08:53:23Z arandomguyhere: loke: thanks ^_^
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2016-07-18T08:54:58Z jdz: arandomguyhere: if MACRO-FUNCTION returns non-nil, then the symbol names a macro, but to use it properly you'd have to pass it environment, but you will not have that at runtime
2016-07-18T08:55:00Z ggole: You could test whether the result of macro-function is null
2016-07-18T08:55:13Z ggole: But I doubt it would be helpful for a number of reasons
2016-07-18T08:55:58Z H4ns: how would it make sense to test whether some symbol referred to a macro at compile time, at run time?
2016-07-18T08:57:19Z loke: H4ns: That was my entire point when trying to explain that if one thinks that one has the need for this, there is some design flaw or misunderstandong somewhere.
2016-07-18T08:58:03Z H4ns: loke: yes.  i was just trying to express my confusion.
2016-07-18T08:58:31Z jdz: oh, he left :/
2016-07-18T08:58:43Z H4ns: hehe.
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2016-07-18T09:05:44Z loke has started implementing an APL compiler in Lisp.
2016-07-18T09:05:55Z loke: I cannot possibly be the first person to try that.
2016-07-18T09:10:51Z ggole: APL compilers come up every now and then
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2016-07-18T09:11:06Z ggole: I think there was a talk on one at the recent PLDI
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2016-07-18T09:25:21Z shka: loke: have fun
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2016-07-18T10:06:31Z reepca: (macro-function 'a-symbol) returns nil if the symbol doesn't represent a macro, so macro-function could also be called macro-symbol-p. Whatever arandomguyhere was doing, all he would have to do would be to perform further tests if the object he is TYPECASE-ing on is a symbol.
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2016-07-18T15:12:16Z rme: A couple of people now have complained that it's hard to get Clozure CL into Debian's (or other distributions') package repository.
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2016-07-18T15:14:18Z rme: The issue seems to be the database files that the #_ reader macro uses.  These files are produced in a two step process.  First, a custom tool called ffigen processes .h files and writes files of s-expression based data.  Then, lisp code parses that data, and writes binary database files.
2016-07-18T15:15:34Z rme: What if ccl included the s-expression formatted data from the .h files in the source repository?  Then ffigen wouldn't have to be available in order to build the binary database files.
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2016-07-18T15:17:15Z rme: I'm probably neutral to slightly negative about the value of having ccl in distributions' packages, but if there is something straightforward I can do to make it easier, I'm willing to give it a try.
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2016-07-18T15:20:30Z rme: I'm saying all of this because of dim: and for CCL to not depend on some obscure fork of gcc to bootstrap its build so that it may find its way as an official debian package
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2016-07-18T15:24:01Z H4ns: rme: i think including preprocessed copies of the system header files in the package source code is not quite to the spirit of debian's desire to be able to rebuild everything from source
2016-07-18T15:24:21Z H4ns: rme: it might be that dim is not interested in holding up that spirit, though :)
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2016-07-18T15:26:06Z Xach: I wonder if there's a hair to split about compiled data vs compiled code
2016-07-18T15:26:11Z rme: ccl also needs an existing ccl binary in order to compile itself.  Does that make a Debian package of ccl a non-starter?
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2016-07-18T15:28:41Z rpg: One thing I'd love to have is a version of CCL that's comfortable for installation in the conventional directory structure (e.g., with stow).
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2016-07-18T15:28:52Z jackdaniel: rme: yes, because you can't compile CCL from sources
2016-07-18T15:29:18Z rpg: How does debian package SBCL, then?
2016-07-18T15:29:37Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure, but I suspect that SBCL is boostrapped from CLISP, which may be built with gcc + autotools
2016-07-18T15:29:39Z Xach: I don't know, but it can bootstrap from clisp.
2016-07-18T15:29:51Z rme: rpg: What conventional directory structure is that?
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2016-07-18T15:30:11Z rpg: rme: bin/ lib/ share/, etc.
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2016-07-18T15:31:00Z rpg: On mac and linux, I can easily install other lisps into /usr/local with stow, which is handy.
2016-07-18T15:31:41Z rpg: It's not a huge thing, but it would be nice. I'm an unusual user, because I need to install as many lisps as I can get my hands on (to test ASDF).
2016-07-18T15:33:38Z rme: I would have thought that having everything in a single directory would be simpler, but you might have a different view of things.
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2016-07-18T15:35:14Z rme: I suppose Debian must make an exception for gcc, since it needs a compiler to build itself too.
2016-07-18T15:40:41Z rpg: rme: The single directory model isn't a big problem -- I can just drop it into /usr/local/ccl...  But it's not the way most UNIX-y software is installed.  But my background is more Unix and Linux, and less Mac.  I just think of Mac as the most stable unix I can get my hands on! ;-)
2016-07-18T15:42:21Z rme: FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if ccl is used more on Linux than on the Mac, but I take your point.
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2016-07-18T15:44:41Z rpg: rme: For me the thing I like is being able to install with stow, which makes it easy for me to upgrade, and handle OS upgrades.  But of course, if you want to offer man pages, etc., using the standard directory layout makes it easier.
2016-07-18T15:45:21Z rpg: Again, I'm a non-standard user -- I pretty much never use UIs, IDEs, etc.
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2016-07-18T17:08:50Z akkad: Xach: thanks for the clx merge
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2016-07-18T17:14:11Z dfigrish: hello everyone!
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2016-07-18T18:00:36Z Xach: akkad: no problem
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2016-07-18T20:19:01Z francogrex: hi what am I missing here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/320767
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2016-07-18T20:21:10Z ggole: The package name, maybe
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2016-07-18T20:23:26Z reepca: seems weird that inspect would not show the package name of slots, but would show the package name of the class and some slots' printed representations.
2016-07-18T20:26:09Z francogrex: ok true: (slot-value net 'CL-BAYESNET:NAME) is what I want
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2016-07-18T22:50:09Z Xach has set mode -bbbb NIGGGGERS!*@* *!*@*77.85.30.142 *!4f6f6480@*.100.128 *!*@*206.190.138.20
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2016-07-19T02:21:13Z PuercoPop: btw does anyone know if clx's decision to use structures instead of classes responds to a [measured] performance need?
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2016-07-19T02:27:10Z totimkopf: I just got my ANSI Common Lisp copy by Paul Graham, The section on Form doesn't seem to explain much for me, so Form is just the polish notation, atoms and lists? The HyperSpec makes Forms seem more complex
2016-07-19T02:29:46Z Bike: a "form" is just something evaluable
2016-07-19T02:30:06Z Bike: "n. 1. any object meant to be evaluated. 2. a symbol, a compound form, or a self-evaluating object."
2016-07-19T02:30:14Z Bike: i don't know if graham had something else in mind.
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2016-07-19T02:57:09Z totimkopf: Bike: okay, thanks!
2016-07-19T02:57:29Z totimkopf: Bike: what isn't evaluable in Lisp?
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2016-07-19T02:57:58Z loke: totimkopf: an array, for example.
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2016-07-19T02:58:06Z loke: totimkopf: or this: (())
2016-07-19T02:58:07Z Bike: arrays are evaluable, they are self-evaluating objects
2016-07-19T02:58:08Z Quadrescence: i ran into this non-issue today: how might one write a local generic function in a spirit like LABELS? The two biggest problems I see are 1. being able to lift out the local definition to global scope and consequently 2. having reasonable lexical scoping semantics
2016-07-19T02:58:15Z Bike: (()) is invalid, so you could call it not evaluated
2016-07-19T02:58:18Z loke: Bike: you're right. I was stupid
2016-07-19T02:58:28Z Bike: Quadrescence: did you know there used to be a special form for that
2016-07-19T02:58:37Z Quadrescence: Bike, no I did not know that!
2016-07-19T02:58:43Z Bike: generic-flet i think, it's in the issues
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2016-07-19T02:58:50Z Bike: they gave up on it for having weird semantics
2016-07-19T02:59:17Z Quadrescence: it seems like it could be hard to talk about the lifetimes of captured variables, maybe, idk
2016-07-19T02:59:29Z Bike: i think it's mostly the adding and removing methods
2016-07-19T02:59:30Z totimkopf: and a compound-form is just two or more objects that are evaluable?
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2016-07-19T02:59:36Z Bike: a compound form is a list
2016-07-19T02:59:40Z Bike: like (+ 4 5) is a compound form
2016-07-19T02:59:55Z totimkopf: ah okay :)
2016-07-19T02:59:55Z Bike: Quadrescence: there's contextl, which is i think a reasonable thing, but it's mainly dynamic
2016-07-19T03:01:12Z Quadrescence: the only annoyance it has caused me thus far is that i have all these toplevel %foo GF's, and they take all this extra state that you don't actually ever intend to specialize on
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2016-07-19T03:01:33Z Quadrescence: (in particular for AST manipulations)
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2016-07-19T03:01:55Z Bike: that what has caused you, contextl?
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2016-07-19T03:02:31Z Quadrescence: the lack of local GFs
2016-07-19T03:02:51Z Bike: oic
2016-07-19T03:03:43Z Quadrescence: I guess I could typecase things but that is certainly unfavorable
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2016-07-19T03:09:33Z Bike: if the set of methods is fixed you could maybe write a macro to do the typecasing for you
2016-07-19T03:11:16Z pillton: You can use the programmatic API of the MOP to do it.
2016-07-19T03:11:54Z Bike: mop ensure-generic-function
2016-07-19T03:11:54Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-generic-function.html
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2016-07-19T03:12:02Z pillton: That is in the glue layer.
2016-07-19T03:12:02Z Bike: yeah it's still global.
2016-07-19T03:12:11Z pillton: The object layer of the MOP.
2016-07-19T03:12:22Z Bike: so how do you make an anonymous gf?
2016-07-19T03:12:42Z pillton: (make-instance 'standard-generic-function)
2016-07-19T03:12:47Z Bike: right
2016-07-19T03:13:30Z Bike: but you might have to use make-method-lambda, and who would be willing...!
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2016-07-19T03:13:50Z pillton: Yeah... She doesn't like to be woken up.
2016-07-19T03:15:57Z pillton: My specialization-store system is a bit easier to do that sort of stuff.
2016-07-19T03:16:01Z pillton: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/blob/master/tests/standard-store.lisp#L320
2016-07-19T03:16:17Z pillton: I haven't finished the documentation though.
2016-07-19T03:16:59Z pillton: It has different semantics to generic-functions though.
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2016-07-19T03:56:35Z PuercoPop: Wouldn't one add a local method instead of a local generic function?
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2016-07-19T03:59:07Z loke: PuercoPop: I'd hate to figure out how local methods would work in the context of multithreading.
2016-07-19T04:02:24Z PuercoPop: loke: even adding methods using the MOP is troublesome. There is even a 'considered harmful' paper about it
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2016-07-19T04:07:37Z Bike: PuercoPop: it depends on what Quadrescence is doing. they mentioned typecase being possible, so i was guessing there wouldn't be call to add and remove methods.
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2016-07-19T04:21:44Z PuercoPop: Wouldn't one would still have to add a local method when adding a local generic function?
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2016-07-19T04:27:21Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-19T04:31:11Z Bike: PuercoPop: probably, but it would make multithreading mostly irrelevant.
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2016-07-19T04:34:48Z beach: For those who do not hang out in #clim, now the default for McCLIM is to use Truetype fonts that are rendered by Common Lisp code using cl-vectors.  Thanks to phoe_krk, mmos, and rme for finding and solving a performance problem with CCL and fixing the code in CLX that caused it.
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2016-07-19T04:35:11Z reepca applauds
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2016-07-19T04:36:19Z beach: Yeah, this is a great example of collaborative work.
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2016-07-19T05:07:40Z beach: Speaking of CLX, if anyone feels like contributing work to the manual, there is a section of undocumented features in it.  Some of them can be documented without much effort.  Just look at the code and see what it does; then write it down.
2016-07-19T05:07:41Z beach: It is the kind of work that can be accomplished by doing one thing per day, because it does not require paging in a lot of context.  The current CLX repository is here: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx
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2016-07-19T05:57:00Z rumbler3_: forgive me if is is obvious, but I'm trying to write a little hunchentoot server to simply autogenerate an index.html for the files in the root directory specified to an easy-handler.  the lisp code is simple, but i'm trying to figure out how to pass the initialized document root directory along to the dispatch machinery so that the index function knows what folder for which to produce the file list
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2016-07-19T06:07:47Z H4ns: rumbler3_: why do you want to generate the file list into a file? you could as well just return the generated html to the client
2016-07-19T06:08:28Z drmeister: Hello
2016-07-19T06:08:58Z H4ns: rumbler3_: in any case, the acceptor-document-root accessor can be used to determine the root directory of the accessor.
2016-07-19T06:09:05Z H4ns: .. acceptor.
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2016-07-19T06:09:23Z rumbler3_: i don't need to generate it into a file
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2016-07-19T06:09:34Z rumbler3_: ok, thanks
2016-07-19T06:11:08Z H4ns: rumbler3_: but look at this: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#start - and at http://weitz.de/cl-who/ maybe
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2016-07-19T06:28:15Z dvxd: is there a hunchentoot that can listen on a unix socket and speak the FastCGI protocol?
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2016-07-19T06:33:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: dvxd: I know that clack has a fastcgi backend
2016-07-19T06:34:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know about the unix socket part though
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2016-07-19T06:55:57Z dvxd: thanks.
2016-07-19T06:56:21Z dvxd: I'm looking at all the lisp options for web development, and my head is spinning.
2016-07-19T06:56:56Z dvxd: I was right at the precipice of writing my own LISP-1... but I'm trying to walk myself down from that cliff.
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2016-07-19T06:58:07Z rumbler3_: is fastcgi not normal cgi?
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2016-07-19T07:02:13Z cky: rumbler3_: Very, very different beasts.
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2016-07-19T13:16:32Z didi: Is there an element that will always be < than anything else?
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2016-07-19T13:18:11Z jackdaniel: hm, maybe most-negative-double-float  ?
2016-07-19T13:18:15Z lieven: most-negative-long-float but that's almost certainly not what you want
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2016-07-19T13:18:50Z didi: Good candidates, but still somewhat limiting, don't you think?
2016-07-19T13:19:19Z eudoxia: CL doesn't have negative infinity, but SBCL does
2016-07-19T13:19:25Z jackdaniel: standard doesn't define negative-infinity
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2016-07-19T13:19:29Z didi: Hum. /me is using SBCL
2016-07-19T13:19:51Z eudoxia: sb-ext:double-float-negative-infinity
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2016-07-19T13:20:13Z didi: eudoxia: Thank you.
2016-07-19T13:20:31Z eudoxia: but (< sb-ext:double-float-negative-infinity sb-ext:double-float-negative-infinity) => NIL so idk mang
2016-07-19T13:20:44Z jackdaniel: all hail not portable software
2016-07-19T13:21:12Z didi: jackdaniel: _This_ ship has sailed a long time ago. :-P
2016-07-19T13:21:19Z eudoxia: yeah I'd recommend not doing that but whatever
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2016-07-19T13:21:59Z jackdaniel: I'd go with ieee-floats for infinities
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2016-07-19T13:29:13Z ggole: (< -inf nan) isn't going to be true either
2016-07-19T13:29:36Z ggole: You might be able to ignore that, but if not you would probably need to write your own comparison.
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2016-07-19T13:40:29Z dwchandler: It's an opportunity to take a step back and look at a higher level. Is there another (better) way to accomplish this?
2016-07-19T13:41:40Z dwchandler: The question is too specific, so can't really say.
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2016-07-19T13:54:04Z didi: In a broader sense, it involves mathematical elegance: some algorithms assume comparisons to infinity. In this specific case, I am rewriting my `argmin' function to accept sequences instead of just lists and I was struggling with it.
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2016-07-19T13:55:30Z didi: Anyway, https://paste.debian.net/hidden/bdd73891 is my rewrite of it.
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2016-07-19T13:56:45Z jackdaniel: didi: wouldn't it be more elegant if you just assign first arg-val pair to the min min-value?
2016-07-19T13:56:58Z jackdaniel: and map from the second element?
2016-07-19T13:57:09Z didi: jackdaniel: Indeed. But then, how do I map from the second element?
2016-07-19T13:57:24Z didi: Assume a sequence.
2016-07-19T13:58:27Z jackdaniel: subseq?
2016-07-19T13:58:33Z jackdaniel: (subseq seq 1)
2016-07-19T13:58:42Z didi: I don't want to pay the price of copying the sequence.
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2016-07-19T13:59:01Z moore33: :start
2016-07-19T13:59:07Z jackdaniel: yes, start
2016-07-19T13:59:29Z didi: Uh. `reduce' has :start.
2016-07-19T13:59:40Z didi: Cool.
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2016-07-19T14:22:13Z didi: `argmin' with `reduce' https://paste.debian.net/hidden/bc1f2180 . I think I've never used `reduce' by ignoring its value.
2016-07-19T14:23:20Z Grue``: what is wrong with loop?
2016-07-19T14:23:51Z didi: Grue``: Sorry, are you asking me or is this a general question?
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2016-07-19T14:24:58Z Grue``: actually a reduce that ignores its first argument is basically a map
2016-07-19T14:25:18Z didi: Indeed.
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2016-07-19T14:34:20Z scymtym_: (argmin SEQ FN) == (let ((e (alexandria:extremum SEQ #\< :key FN))) (values e (funcall FN e)))
2016-07-19T14:34:49Z didi: Grue``: Tho in `argmin' I use `reduce' so I can map starting at the second element.
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2016-07-19T14:39:22Z mejja: PHP >> Lisp:)
2016-07-19T14:40:09Z mejja: Proof:  http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/performance.php?test=regexdna
2016-07-19T14:42:26Z dlowe: as far as #lisp trolls go, that's the most pathetic I've seen yet.
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2016-07-19T14:43:24Z mejja: Then you should join #scheme
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2016-07-19T15:27:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9484757
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2016-07-19T17:10:59Z sharkteeth: ,cmi+
2016-07-19T17:11:06Z sharkteeth: wrong channel sorry
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2016-07-19T17:41:30Z ray92: how would I sort a list like this: ((b (2 3)) (d (7 8 9 10)) (a (1)) (c (4 5 6))) by length of each sublist's 2nd element? So this would get sorted to this: ((a (1)) (b (2 3)) (c (4 5 6)) (d (7 8 9 10)))
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2016-07-19T17:42:24Z pierpa: (sort list #'length :key #'second)
2016-07-19T17:42:32Z pierpa: no, wait
2016-07-19T17:43:05Z pierpa: (sort list #'< :key #'(lambda (x) (length (second x))))
2016-07-19T17:44:56Z Trystam is now known as Tristam
2016-07-19T17:49:01Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-07-19T17:49:27Z phoe_krk: In general, :KEY and :TEST arguments are surprisingly versatile and easy to use in Lisp.
2016-07-19T17:50:30Z pierpa: everything is surprisingly versatile and easy to use in lisp
2016-07-19T17:50:45Z pierpa: (with a small number of exception :)
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2016-07-19T17:50:49Z pierpa: s
2016-07-19T17:50:56Z phoe_krk: except figuring out why RPLACA is called like this
2016-07-19T17:51:28Z pierpa: REPLace CAr
2016-07-19T17:51:38Z phoe_krk: yes, but why RPLACA and not REPLACE-CAR
2016-07-19T17:51:52Z pierpa: becasue at the time people was weird
2016-07-19T17:52:01Z phoe_krk: turns out that machines of the old came with a surprisingly awesome and good typo correction created in the DWIM style
2016-07-19T17:52:22Z pierpa: then CAR and CDR are weirder than RPLACA
2016-07-19T17:52:36Z phoe_krk: CAR and CDR have roots in microprocessor design.
2016-07-19T17:52:46Z phoe_krk: contents of address register / contents of decrement register.
2016-07-19T17:53:10Z pierpa: then LAMBDA is the weirdest
2016-07-19T17:53:14Z phoe_krk: which were how Lisp handled lists back in the days of LISP 1.5 I guess.
2016-07-19T17:53:28Z phoe_krk: Lambda is the weirdest. But again, blame the Greeks.
2016-07-19T17:53:39Z dlowe: rplaca - token limits were very common when ram was expensive
2016-07-19T17:54:05Z dlowe: they were probably trying to get it to fit in 6 or eight characters on some ancestor lisp
2016-07-19T17:55:06Z pierpa: then when they invented MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND they were overcompensating past times of character starving
2016-07-19T17:55:23Z phoe_krk: might have been more advanced times
2016-07-19T17:55:36Z pierpa: surely :)
2016-07-19T17:55:45Z dlowe: yeah, this is one of the backwards compatibility warts
2016-07-19T17:55:51Z dlowe: almost certainly
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2016-07-19T18:29:07Z reb``: Just ignore RPLACA.  Use (SETF (CAR x) ...) instead.
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2016-07-19T18:54:59Z dfigrish: hi there
2016-07-19T18:55:27Z dlowe: hi, dfigrish
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2016-07-19T21:05:44Z dfigrish: bye
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2016-07-19T23:15:01Z eudoxia: what's the ASDF function to reload the systems
2016-07-19T23:15:06Z eudoxia: I've got a system and ASDF isn't finding it
2016-07-19T23:15:16Z eudoxia: s/reload/recrank the source registry thing
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2016-07-19T23:23:17Z PuercoPop: eudoxia: doesn't quickload provide a restart?
2016-07-19T23:23:30Z eudoxia: doesn't seem like it
2016-07-19T23:23:50Z eudoxia: I know however that there's some function somewhere that re-searches my source registry stuff for systems
2016-07-19T23:23:52Z PuercoPop: like [clear configuration and retry]
2016-07-19T23:24:00Z eudoxia: I tried that and it didn't work :(
2016-07-19T23:24:55Z eudoxia: hmm, my source-registry.conf has got (:tree (:home "code")) and this project is in /home/eudoxia/code/herp/derp/foo/project.asd, maybe that's the problem
2016-07-19T23:25:24Z PuercoPop: there is upgrade-configuration
2016-07-19T23:25:27Z PuercoPop: in uiop
2016-07-19T23:26:22Z eudoxia: ... sigh, nevermind. I was being retarded.
2016-07-19T23:26:45Z eudoxia: tl;dr I had a project.asd that internally defined a system called project-old, but I forgot to rename project.asd to project-old.asd
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2016-07-19T23:28:50Z eudoxia: PuercoPop: also thanks but I think upgrade-config only re-reads config, it doesn't re-search
2016-07-19T23:29:11Z eudoxia: I know because searching for systems is a multi-second process and most of my startup time :/
2016-07-19T23:31:01Z pillton: (asdf:clear-source-registry)
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2016-07-19T23:33:48Z PuercoPop: just checked, asdf:load-system does offer that restart
2016-07-19T23:34:18Z PuercoPop: although I think the current recommended entry point for asdf is make
2016-07-19T23:34:50Z pillton: When did that happen?
2016-07-19T23:35:50Z PuercoPop: pillton: I don't know. I read some code by Fare a while back that used asdf:make. I think the commit message said it was preferred or something.
2016-07-19T23:36:26Z eudoxia: lmao what
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2016-07-19T23:36:44Z pillton: Well the doc string is "The recommended way to interact with ASDF3.1 is via (ASDF:MAKE :FOO).
2016-07-19T23:36:45Z pillton: It will build system FOO using the operation BUILD-OP,
2016-07-19T23:36:45Z pillton: the meaning of which is configurable by the system, and
2016-07-19T23:36:47Z pillton: defaults to *LOAD-SYSTEM-OPERATION*, usually LOAD-OP,
2016-07-19T23:36:58Z pillton: to load it in current image."
2016-07-19T23:37:13Z eudoxia: well that sort of makes sense I guess
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2016-07-19T23:40:15Z PuercoPop: me too. But at least the ASDF manual is thorough
2016-07-19T23:42:06Z pillton: "This function is experimental and largely untested. Use at your own risk."
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2016-07-19T23:42:24Z pillton is up2date.
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2016-07-20T02:01:23Z avalokite: /eval /channel add -auto $C $chatnet
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2016-07-20T02:04:35Z avalokite: eval echo $C $chatnet
2016-07-20T02:05:05Z avalokite: eval }echo $C $chatnet
2016-07-20T02:05:35Z avalokite: eval /echo $C $chatnet
2016-07-20T02:06:33Z avalokite: eval channel add -auto $C $chatnet
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2016-07-20T02:09:41Z avalokite: err, sorry. I had no idea this was going to ALL channels. God. having to say this to everyone is driving me mad.
2016-07-20T02:10:22Z Bike: clearly you should have just sent the apology to all channels in the same way
2016-07-20T02:10:52Z avalokite: I didn't know I could do that until well, now. Haha
2016-07-20T02:10:58Z avalokite: What a feature!
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2016-07-20T04:50:06Z emaczen: How do I make a bidirectional string stream?
2016-07-20T04:57:10Z pillton: How would writing affect reading?
2016-07-20T04:59:58Z emaczen: pillton: Well, I would like to read what I am writing.
2016-07-20T05:00:21Z emaczen: pillton: I know that sounds odd, but this is spread across different classes
2016-07-20T05:00:59Z pillton: I don't understand the last sentence.
2016-07-20T05:01:50Z emaczen: I'm thinking about this like I am writing to the *messages* buffer in emacs -- if you write to the underlying stream, what will read the stream into a string and insert that string into the buffer?
2016-07-20T05:02:42Z emaczen: pillton: I don't know that much about streams so maybe I have the wrong ideas about what I need.
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2016-07-20T05:05:46Z pillton: It is ok to not know much about streams.
2016-07-20T05:06:16Z pillton: Can you try rewording this sentence: "if you write to the underlying stream, what ...".
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2016-07-20T05:09:20Z emaczen: I'm imagining how emacs implements the *messages* buffer. I guess you could just concatenate strings but I think they use streams, so I am imagining the stream associated with the *messages* buffer first being writen to (e.g. when you type a keyboard shortcut of a command) then you need the string representation of the stream to write to the *messages* buffer.
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2016-07-20T05:11:19Z pillton: I don't think buffers are implemented using streams.
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2016-07-20T05:11:34Z pillton: You might get some ideas from https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer.
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2016-07-20T05:12:17Z pillton: There are also some stream classes found in Chapter 21.2 of the CLHS.
2016-07-20T05:12:19Z pillton: clhs 21.2
2016-07-20T05:12:20Z specbot: The Streams Dictionary: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/c_stream.htm
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2016-07-20T06:42:22Z Lord_Nightmare: lisper: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RSAqUk0Yfx8J:www.unlambda.com/pipermail/lispm-hackers/2009-December/001847.html+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us <- original link is giving a weird error, but the google cache works. any chance to fix that?
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2016-07-20T08:33:44Z dfigrish: hi there
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2016-07-20T08:46:02Z Munksgaard: dfigrish: Hi!
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2016-07-20T09:07:58Z porky11: I have some own definition of a function. the original version is used in many packages. how can I load the other packages with my own version of the function?
2016-07-20T09:13:07Z Grue`: just redefine the original definition. if it's not inlined, that should be enough
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2016-07-20T09:14:22Z porky11: but thats not portable if my function shadows something from common lisp, or if it uses the original function
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2016-07-20T09:34:46Z dfigrish: folks, when are you using acronyms/abbreviations in your Lisp code? Is there useful convention, because the naming are soooooo hard?
2016-07-20T09:35:44Z moore33: dfigrish: Like what? I sometimes use mvb for multiple-value-bind, that sort of thing.
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2016-07-20T09:37:59Z dfigrish: moore33: I mean the naming of user's classes/functions/constants/variables etc. For example, how to decide, what name is better -- composite-field-position or composite-field-pos or even compo-field-pos ?
2016-07-20T09:38:24Z moore33: compo-field-pos is right out :)
2016-07-20T09:38:50Z dfigrish: This is always too hard for me to make the decision... :-(
2016-07-20T09:39:15Z moore33: position -> pos seems ok to me, but it depends on context. composite-field-position is a fine name for a method, but probably painful as a local variable name.
2016-07-20T09:40:34Z dfigrish: moore33: what about statement-parameter-position vs statement-parameter-pos vs statement-param-pos vs stmt-param-pos ? :-)
2016-07-20T09:41:36Z moore33: I would chose statement-parameter-position as a method name, and stmt-param-pos as an argument or local variable name.
2016-07-20T09:41:44Z moore33: I guess.
2016-07-20T09:41:50Z dim: it's lisp, you can use long names, so just do it?
2016-07-20T09:42:12Z SAL9000: I imagine the most important thing is that you're consistent
2016-07-20T09:42:13Z moore33: Balance between clarity and clutter.
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2016-07-20T09:42:29Z dfigrish: dim: yeah, the speach is about the library for Postgres :)
2016-07-20T09:42:31Z dim: I'm a strong believer of “make it obvious”
2016-07-20T09:42:34Z SAL9000: if you're using abbreviations, try to use commonly-known ones, and add a glossary to your documentation if you have to
2016-07-20T09:42:48Z dim: dfigrish: Postmodern?
2016-07-20T09:43:30Z dim: dfigrish: IOW my rule is that if it's hard to make a decision, use the most explicit long form
2016-07-20T09:43:56Z dim: you'll be happy about your choice when reading the code again some days/weeks/month from now
2016-07-20T09:44:27Z dfigrish: dim: no, I'm about to finish my C++14 library for PostgreSQL and I would like to make the bindings for Lisp. (It will supports the async IO.)
2016-07-20T09:44:45Z dfigrish: dim: so, statement-parameter-position ?
2016-07-20T09:44:52Z dim: dfigrish: I like this article to express the spirit http://www.gar1t.com/blog/solving-embarrassingly-obvious-problems-in-erlang.html
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2016-07-20T09:45:14Z dim: dfigrish: that would certainly be my choice
2016-07-20T09:45:40Z dfigrish: dim: well, I'll trying to be consisnet in C++, in C (where the limit for external identifiers is 31 according to standard) and Lisp :-)
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2016-07-20T09:46:51Z dfigrish: dim: yes, I agree. How about describe-prepared-statement-async vs describe-ps-async ? :-)
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2016-07-20T09:47:59Z dim: well the other line of thinking is consistency
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2016-07-20T09:48:18Z dim: if you consistently refer to prepared statements as ps (in the docs, comments and the code), then go for the latter
2016-07-20T09:48:42Z dim: being consistent is a good way to make things obvious ;-)
2016-07-20T09:51:15Z dfigrish: dim: yeah, but on the other hand, it can be unclear for readers of application code to understand that "ps" is a prepared statement rather than "postscriptum", because the latter is widely known as the "SQL" :-)
2016-07-20T09:52:46Z dfigrish: SAL9000: yes, I have a dictionary for abbreviations and acronyms
2016-07-20T09:53:13Z SAL9000: :)
2016-07-20T09:54:38Z dfigrish: there are yet another limitting factor - convention about the 80 characters per line limitation. As least, in C or C++. It there some kind of such limit?
2016-07-20T09:54:42Z dfigrish: in Lisp
2016-07-20T09:55:00Z jdz: yes, 80 characters
2016-07-20T09:55:26Z jdz: some people care about this limit, others don't
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2016-07-20T09:57:40Z dfigrish: jdz: well, (eq (statement-parameter-position stmt) (+invalid-statement-parameter-position+)) is exceeds the 80 characters already :-)
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2016-07-20T09:58:13Z dfigrish: jdz: yet another pain
2016-07-20T09:58:15Z jdz: yes, so you don't put it on one line
2016-07-20T09:58:19Z jdz: that's not pain
2016-07-20T09:58:47Z jdz: put both parameters to EQ one under the other
2016-07-20T10:00:06Z dfigrish: jdz: yes, but what if such kind of S-expr will be deeply nested in defun/let/flet/label etc ?
2016-07-20T10:00:10Z jdz: in many cases having parameters lined up vertically is easier to read than having them all on one line
2016-07-20T10:00:25Z jdz: don't have deeply-nested whatever?
2016-07-20T10:00:33Z jdz: common sense applies, as usual
2016-07-20T10:01:19Z dfigrish: jdz: I don't know
2016-07-20T10:01:41Z jdz: dfigrish: give an example of piece of code you're struggling with
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2016-07-20T10:03:55Z dfigrish: jdz: I'm a library author, I don't have one at this moment, but I want to make a proper decision about consistent, clear, understable naming taking into account the existing conventions on limits
2016-07-20T10:04:37Z dfigrish: jdz: I cannot predict the situation when the user exeeds the limit of 80 characters :-)
2016-07-20T10:05:42Z jdz: i don't think that's something you should worry about
2016-07-20T10:05:55Z jdz: "you" as in "library author"
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2016-07-20T10:07:15Z jdz: although it would be a good thing if you also were the user of your library
2016-07-20T10:07:29Z rszeno you realy have a problem if you need more then 80 chars for a lib token, :)
2016-07-20T10:07:30Z jdz: eat your own dog food or somesuch
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2016-07-20T10:08:03Z dfigrish: jdz: yes, but you asked about the code which I don't have at the moment
2016-07-20T10:08:43Z jdz: dfigrish: and you're worrying about non-existent problems
2016-07-20T10:09:36Z dfigrish: jdz: maybe, it is because the library don't released yet :)
2016-07-20T10:11:51Z rszeno: is important what is doing not how it look
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2016-07-20T10:13:11Z jdz: aesthetic concerns are important
2016-07-20T10:13:48Z jdz: i like to design libraries by first writing code that uses the library
2016-07-20T10:13:53Z rszeno: depend of how do you feel
2016-07-20T10:15:09Z rszeno my replay was about aesthetic
2016-07-20T10:16:00Z jdz: yes, it's important
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2016-07-20T10:17:52Z dfigrish: jdz: so, could you tell me please, how would you prefer to name a method completion-info-available-p or completion-info-avail-p or compl-info-avail-p or compl-info-available-p ?
2016-07-20T10:18:08Z jdz: first one
2016-07-20T10:18:25Z moore33: I've moved on to 100 characters per line.
2016-07-20T10:18:37Z dfigrish: jdz: aha, thank you
2016-07-20T10:19:50Z rszeno: if is in a module completion-info you can ignore a prefix
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2016-07-20T10:20:37Z dfigrish: rszeno: do you mean the package?
2016-07-20T10:21:31Z rszeno: yes, a file named completion-info for example
2016-07-20T10:21:57Z jdz: i don't think a method named available-p is a good idea
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2016-07-20T10:22:30Z jdz: (in which case it would be availablep)
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2016-07-20T10:23:09Z rszeno: it clash with something else?
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2016-07-20T10:24:33Z dfigrish: rszeno: I think that the code which is (in-package 'completion-info) will be unreadable for new readers which may be confused what does the availablep ?
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2016-07-20T10:25:45Z rszeno: why unreadable if are no shortcuts?
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2016-07-20T10:27:05Z rszeno: i'm in completion-info so i assume are forms for that task
2016-07-20T10:27:47Z dfigrish: rszeno: it's you, but not the new reader of your code ;-)
2016-07-20T10:27:52Z rszeno: why the user will expect something ele?
2016-07-20T10:28:19Z jdz: rszeno: sometimes packages are used in other packages
2016-07-20T10:28:31Z jdz: and it might not be so obvious then
2016-07-20T10:28:39Z rszeno: is new not stupid
2016-07-20T10:28:54Z dfigrish: rszeno: compare completion-info:availablep with availablep. To me, the first form is clearer (but its for me).
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2016-07-20T10:29:35Z rszeno: i don't see the  difference
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2016-07-20T10:29:41Z dfigrish: rszeno: but it is matter of taste and/or style, of course...
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2016-07-20T10:30:08Z jdz: dfigrish: that function has argument(s), right?
2016-07-20T10:30:17Z rszeno: yes, agree with last
2016-07-20T10:30:28Z dfigrish: jdz: completion-info-available-p?
2016-07-20T10:30:32Z jdz: yes
2016-07-20T10:30:34Z dfigrish: jdz: no
2016-07-20T10:30:51Z jdz: not even a DB connection or something?
2016-07-20T10:30:53Z rszeno: it use some globals?
2016-07-20T10:31:09Z dfigrish: jdz: oops, sorry, the connection of course :-)
2016-07-20T10:31:17Z dfigrish: jdz: I'm thinking in C++ now :-)
2016-07-20T10:31:37Z jdz: so, what would you expect if you see (availablep connection)?
2016-07-20T10:31:49Z jdz: even if availablep is in connection-info package, it's very misleading
2016-07-20T10:32:19Z dfigrish: jdz: ask rszeno :-)
2016-07-20T10:33:09Z rszeno: completion and connection are different concepts, :)
2016-07-20T10:34:22Z rszeno: so in the end being available can be use in both but with different meaning
2016-07-20T10:35:40Z jdz: yes, and the function can have a name that causes a lot of cognitive load, or it can be named in a way that has next to zero cognitive load
2016-07-20T10:36:00Z rszeno: i don't expect connection::availablep to answer something about completion
2016-07-20T10:37:50Z jdz: yes, and spending half a day staring at the code that's doing something you expect but actually turns out you're looking at the different availablep (or you might even not be aware that a different same-named function is there)
2016-07-20T10:39:31Z rszeno: it could happend, you can't prevent this by using some complicates naming convention, imo
2016-07-20T10:40:23Z jdz: what i'm trying to communicate that in my opinion bare availablep is the complicated name
2016-07-20T10:40:49Z jdz: it's obvious what (completion-info-available-p connection) means
2016-07-20T10:40:59Z jdz: vs. (availablep connection)
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2016-07-20T10:43:39Z rszeno: yes, but imo the realty is compliicated you can find a simple model and in the end model depend of understanding, perception deep and taste
2016-07-20T10:45:06Z jdz: yes, creating good user experience is hard and complicated, and important
2016-07-20T10:45:19Z rszeno: working is a must, looking bad realy look bad, :)
2016-07-20T10:47:38Z jdz: if using a library is complicated (unnecessarily) it will lead to bugs, and this, in turn will most probably make the library-using software complicated, and down the hill the snowball will roll
2016-07-20T10:47:54Z jdz: and we'll end up where we are now with lots of shit software
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2016-07-20T10:49:19Z rszeno: this is the goal, look at soft around,:)
2016-07-20T10:50:22Z rszeno: in the end the benefit is that we have choices, :)
2016-07-20T10:51:22Z rszeno: and i don't belive a given choice is better
2016-07-20T10:52:17Z jdz: it's not a fact that having choices is better than not having choices
2016-07-20T10:52:40Z jdz: but it depends on a per-case basis
2016-07-20T10:53:00Z jdz: just look up analysis-paralysis
2016-07-20T10:54:07Z rszeno: well, for me using lisp is better but is my opinion in the end
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2016-07-20T10:55:55Z jdz: finally, something we all can agree on
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2016-07-20T10:58:09Z rszeno: we probably agree with more then we actualy think we agree, :)
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2016-07-20T11:25:59Z moore33: You could always just M-. availablep...
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2016-07-20T12:00:47Z dfigrish: dim: thanks for the link. I agree with the author
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2016-07-20T12:14:09Z dfigrish: folks, there is another question. how would you name the function that generates the encrypted password from the username and clear text password: encrypt-password vs. encrypted-password v. make-encrypted-password ?
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2016-07-20T12:17:35Z rszeno: make- is used by defstruct, encripted mean is already done somewhere so encript?
2016-07-20T12:18:20Z rszeno: sorry encrypt?
2016-07-20T12:19:09Z rszeno: with suffix to know what is encryped
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2016-07-20T12:23:44Z dfigrish: rszeno: well, I have a different thinking. Since the expression (encrypted-password username password) can be used as a substitution everywhere the encrypted password is requered, I think that this is a proper name for it. The encrypt-password looks like this function does some side effects?
2016-07-20T12:25:03Z dfigrish: rszeno: but I'm not sure
2016-07-20T12:25:21Z dfigrish: rszeno: so, make- prefix should be avoided because of defstruct ?
2016-07-20T12:25:49Z rszeno: is a good idea, imo :)
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2016-07-20T12:27:10Z dfigrish: rszeno: aha, thanks :)
2016-07-20T12:27:21Z rszeno: when i see make- i use to search for a defstruct, is confusing but can work for somebody else
2016-07-20T12:28:32Z dfigrish: rszeno: maybe encrypted-password-copy then? :)
2016-07-20T12:29:32Z dfigrish: because it actually creates the string with encrypted password
2016-07-20T12:29:43Z rszeno: could be, also a -p or p predicate reurning a kind of bool to check
2016-07-20T12:30:34Z rszeno: or a is-... version, :)
2016-07-20T12:30:58Z dfigrish: rszeno: yes, I use is_ prefix in C++ and in C
2016-07-20T12:31:05Z rszeno i prefere p ended
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2016-07-20T12:32:24Z rszeno: is not better but is my preference, :)
2016-07-20T12:32:58Z rszeno shorter and usual, imo
2016-07-20T12:34:53Z rszeno: p end terminated are not hard to read, could be an argument too, :)
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2016-07-20T12:37:25Z dfigrish: rszeno: after all, it is a Lisp tradition :)
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2016-07-20T12:38:52Z rszeno: yes, a habit, good or bad is a matter of taste, :)
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2016-07-20T12:39:16Z moore33: splitp soup?
2016-07-20T12:39:54Z jackdaniel preferes ? as a suffix for a predicates
2016-07-20T12:40:15Z moore33: Kill the Scheme heretic!
2016-07-20T12:40:26Z jackdaniel: good notation eliminates thought
2016-07-20T12:40:35Z rszeno: is good for me too, :)
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2016-07-20T12:41:15Z dfigrish: jackdaniel: are you using ? prefix in Common Lisp or in Scheme?
2016-07-20T12:41:37Z jackdaniel: dfigrish: if I approach other projects I follow these projects convention
2016-07-20T12:41:46Z jackdaniel: on my local stuff I built from scratch I use ? in Common Lisp
2016-07-20T12:42:13Z dfigrish: jackdaniel: ok, thanks
2016-07-20T12:42:14Z rszeno: is a sheme thing in the end, :)
2016-07-20T12:43:06Z rszeno: is doing the job in the end, :)
2016-07-20T12:44:43Z rszeno: but old/acceptedp lisp fashion is with p, :)
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2016-07-20T16:43:32Z topex: Hi is it possible to program with common lisp for android?
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2016-07-20T16:44:25Z Quadrescence: topex, https://wukix.com/mocl
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2016-07-20T16:47:28Z akkad: topex: yeah. Lispworks
2016-07-20T16:47:31Z akkad: mocl is dead
2016-07-20T16:47:33Z drewc: topex: ECL works on Android, CCL works on Android, SBCL works, JSCL works. Those are the only one's I've tried.
2016-07-20T16:47:33Z jackdaniel: also ECL has android port
2016-07-20T16:47:55Z jackdaniel: mocl isn't dead, just stalled (according to creator)
2016-07-20T16:47:56Z akkad: and "works" is varying levels of wear and tear on your middle finger
2016-07-20T16:48:14Z akkad: software takes forever to die
2016-07-20T16:48:20Z akkad: e.g.: xemacs
2016-07-20T16:48:26Z topex: Mocl costs :(
2016-07-20T16:48:33Z drewc has no wear and tear FWIW ;)
2016-07-20T16:48:36Z jackdaniel: then don't claim it's dead
2016-07-20T16:48:54Z jackdaniel: topex: lispworks and mocl are both paid, but the support is pretty good (mocl isn't full CL yet)
2016-07-20T16:49:03Z akkad: jackdaniel: have you made any apps with it?
2016-07-20T16:49:07Z jackdaniel: topex: sbcl and ccl may work on android, but only on the console
2016-07-20T16:49:18Z jackdaniel: topex: ecl has some integration (check out EclAndroid application)
2016-07-20T16:49:30Z jackdaniel: akkad: I'm not interested in using propietiary software whatsoever
2016-07-20T16:49:44Z akkad: having bought it twice. I think it's fair to say it's not making much headway in the last couple of years
2016-07-20T16:49:57Z akkad: jackdaniel: exactly. "dead to you"
2016-07-20T16:50:22Z topex: Im interented indeveloping apps using ethereum, i have some crazy ideas , and in the past i have worked with common lisp
2016-07-20T16:50:24Z jackdaniel: by "xxx is dead" I understand – "xxx is abandonware"
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2016-07-20T16:50:41Z jackdaniel: what mocl isn't afaik
2016-07-20T16:51:04Z topex: Do you think using common lisp is a good idea for apps with ethereum for android? What do you think?
2016-07-20T16:51:19Z akkad: "paying $100 yearly support fees to get no new features" == dead to me
2016-07-20T16:51:19Z drewc: topex: Mu.
2016-07-20T16:51:45Z akkad: semantics
2016-07-20T16:51:50Z akkad: s
2016-07-20T16:51:50Z topex: Mu? Whats that?
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2016-07-20T16:52:37Z jackdaniel: topex: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecl-android (I haven't much time to work on it lately, but it works)
2016-07-20T16:53:03Z jackdaniel: dto made it to work with sdl and ported his game engine to android (work in progress, but application works)
2016-07-20T16:53:16Z drewc: topex: (Japanese: 無; Korean: 무) or Chinese wú (traditional Chinese: 無; simplified Chinese: 无) meaning "not have; without"
2016-07-20T16:55:39Z jackdaniel: topex: if you'll encounter ecl specific problems, you may join #ecl channel, we'll try to help :)
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2016-07-20T16:55:59Z topex: Do anybody have worked with ethereum?
2016-07-20T16:57:03Z Xach: Is that a lisp program?
2016-07-20T16:58:12Z drewc: Xach: Blockchain, and offtopic.
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2016-07-20T17:53:46Z Grue``: hmm, does SBCL have "implementation-defined attributes of characters"?
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2016-07-20T17:55:39Z Bike: don't think so
2016-07-20T17:56:02Z Bike: there's a bunch of unicode stuff, of course, but none of it is distinct from the codepoitn
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2016-07-20T17:56:25Z Bike: "independent of" would be better
2016-07-20T17:56:36Z Grue``: I really need a way to mark a character in a string in a certain way that would be backwards compatible with most string-handling stuff
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2016-07-20T17:57:17Z Bike: can you not store a position separately or suchlike?
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2016-07-20T18:00:30Z Grue``: that would require passing it along everywhere
2016-07-20T18:00:42Z Grue``: would be nice if I could use the string itself
2016-07-20T18:01:11Z Bike: well, no, there's no way to mark a character
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2016-07-20T19:45:09Z dfigrish: folks, is there are known bugs/weirds/gotchas etc with CFFI when using it in the code for high load web services?
2016-07-20T19:46:59Z Xach: no.
2016-07-20T19:47:21Z Xach: that's not to say there aren't bugs/weirds, but it is not like there is a common knowledge of some specific problems.
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2016-07-20T19:48:18Z dfigrish: Xach: from experience
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2016-07-20T19:50:54Z jackdaniel: dfigrish: from experience if some bug is encountered it gets fixed reasonably fast
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2016-07-20T19:51:56Z dfigrish: Xach: I guess that using foreign network libraries written in C should be as fine as using native socket Lisp API, since the latter calls foreign C code anyway. Right?
2016-07-20T19:52:08Z dfigrish: jackdaniel: this is a good news :)
2016-07-20T19:52:29Z Xach: dfigrish: yes. you can look at exactly how SBCL does networking, for example. and if you don't like it, you can make your own versions.
2016-07-20T19:52:48Z Xach: It's written in Lisp.
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2016-07-20T19:55:37Z jackdaniel: dfigrish: it doesn't have to call foreign C code, networking may be achieved by syscalls directly from lisp
2016-07-20T19:55:53Z jackdaniel: that said I don't know how it's implemented in SBCL or CCL
2016-07-20T19:56:04Z jackdaniel: ECL compiles to C anyway
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2016-07-20T19:58:12Z dfigrish: jackdaniel: well, I'm only care about potential problems with foreign calls. And if Lisp do syscalls without any problems, it will calls the custom C code also
2016-07-20T19:58:23Z Xach: Doug Crosher had a patch for cmucl that allowed you to do direct syscalls in an easy way.
2016-07-20T19:58:28Z jackdaniel: dfigrish: regarding sockets, I'd recommend using usocket (unless you need unix domain sockets, then go for iolib)
2016-07-20T19:58:31Z Xach: But it is not used in cmucl or sbcl. This was 10+ years ago.
2016-07-20T19:59:29Z dfigrish: Xach: yes, I've looked at the SBCL's API looks fine. Also looked under the hood -- it do syscalls, of course :)
2016-07-20T20:00:08Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/cmucl-direct-syscalls
2016-07-20T20:00:45Z jackdaniel: (I recommend these libraries, because they are a portability layers across implementations)
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2016-07-20T20:04:31Z dfigrish: jackdaniel: thanks. I will definitely try the networking from Lisp. As for now, I'm gathering info about the Lisp FFI preparing for bindings to my C++ library for Postgres which have both sync and async API.
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2016-07-20T20:04:51Z phoe_krk: Hi hi
2016-07-20T20:05:01Z dfigrish: hi phoe_krk
2016-07-20T20:05:14Z jackdaniel: dfigrish: but this C++ library has C bindings, right?
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2016-07-20T20:05:35Z dfigrish: jackdaniel: yeah, via the extern "C"
2016-07-20T20:05:36Z jackdaniel: FFI to C++ is a mess varying from not-feasible to impossible
2016-07-20T20:06:44Z dfigrish: Xach: thanks for the link. Is it possible to integrate it to the SBCL?
2016-07-20T20:07:01Z Xach: dfigrish: it would take some hacking.
2016-07-20T20:07:16Z moore33: Direct syscalls are more trouble than they are worth, IMHO.
2016-07-20T20:07:42Z PuercoPop: apropos CFFI does not provide a way to safely check the errno right? AFAIU in different implementations call alien code at different times, so for example GC triggering may overwrite the errno before one has had time to check it
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2016-07-20T20:09:47Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: FFI to C++ in Lisp is called Clasp
2016-07-20T20:10:03Z phoe_krk: and is still pretty much alpha.
2016-07-20T20:10:30Z moore33: PuercoPop: Are you thinking of a case where the GC provokes an error in C land?
2016-07-20T20:10:35Z dfigrish: Xach: sure, I mean the loyalty of SBCL developers for such contribution :)
2016-07-20T20:10:51Z dfigrish: PuercoPop: oops
2016-07-20T20:10:52Z Xach: dfigrish: i don't get it, sorry
2016-07-20T20:11:11Z moore33: PuercoPop: Otherwise there are thread-safety issues; dunno what CFFI tries to do with errno.
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2016-07-20T20:12:34Z dfigrish: Xach: it would be nice to adopt this code to SBCL as a contrib module, but will it be accepted by SBCL developers?
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2016-07-20T20:12:50Z Xach: dfigrish: i don't know if it would be nice, or if it would be accepted
2016-07-20T20:12:51Z PuercoPop: moore33: yes, precisely that. From what I remember different implementations (or at least Allegro) provides ways to guarantee that no alien code is code between your alien call and you checking the errno. I found an old CFFI ml thread discussing that a while back
2016-07-20T20:13:04Z Xach: i thought it was interesting but possibly too hard to maintain or interoperate with other things
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2016-07-20T20:13:37Z Xach: but on the other hand, if you're making a self-contained, monolithic thing and don't mind about getting very platform-specific in the name of performance or something, it could be fun to mess with.
2016-07-20T20:13:47Z eschatologist: Why would you want it to be a contrib module, instead of just something those who want it could load via quicklisp?
2016-07-20T20:14:07Z Xach: it requires some intimate fiddling with sbcl.
2016-07-20T20:14:12Z dxtr: What postgresql library would you guys recommend?
2016-07-20T20:14:17Z Xach: and quicklisp does not carry platform-specific stuff.
2016-07-20T20:14:21Z PuercoPop: dxtr: postmodern
2016-07-20T20:14:23Z Xach: dxtr: postmodern is good
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2016-07-20T20:14:29Z dfigrish: at this moment :)
2016-07-20T20:15:07Z dxtr: Alright! Postmodern it is
2016-07-20T20:15:25Z moore33: PuercoPop: Interesting case...
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2016-07-20T20:18:34Z dfigrish: dxtr: the one disadvantage of Postmodern - it cannot be used with asynchronous (HTTP) servers
2016-07-20T20:19:02Z dxtr: Right
2016-07-20T20:19:06Z dfigrish: dxtr: due to lack of async API
2016-07-20T20:19:08Z dxtr: So... What about sqlite?
2016-07-20T20:19:19Z dxtr: What library would you recommend?
2016-07-20T20:20:09Z ejbs: I mean, you could just use cl-dbi for both of them
2016-07-20T20:20:28Z dxtr: That's very true
2016-07-20T20:21:16Z ejbs: I found this thing (maybe you've already seen it though): https://github.com/akovalenko/cl-postgres-async
2016-07-20T20:22:28Z dfigrish: good night!
2016-07-20T20:23:12Z ejbs: Good night
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2016-07-20T20:24:47Z dxtr: I might actually go for cl-dbi
2016-07-20T20:24:59Z dxtr: Is there a reason not to?
2016-07-20T20:26:26Z PuercoPop: Is there any implementation where I have to use (require 'asdf) before I can use it? I can't think of one
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2016-07-20T20:27:42Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: ECL has this issue with some compiled standalone binaries
2016-07-20T20:27:46Z ejbs: dxtr: If you ever feel discontent with the particular library cl-dbi uses to leverage a certain db and you want to use another one then you can just write a driver for it. That sounds foolproof enough to me
2016-07-20T20:27:52Z jackdaniel: I hope to fix it before the next release
2016-07-20T20:28:40Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: so in ECL one has to?
2016-07-20T20:29:01Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: and yes, you have to use (require 'asdf) to have it, unless you use --with-asdf=builtin during the compilation
2016-07-20T20:29:16Z jackdaniel: yes
2016-07-20T20:29:29Z jackdaniel: by default it's built as a module
2016-07-20T20:29:52Z PuercoPop: thanks
2016-07-20T20:29:57Z jackdaniel: sure
2016-07-20T20:30:22Z jackdaniel: it's the same with ASDF
2016-07-20T20:30:25Z jackdaniel: s/ASDF/SBCL/
2016-07-20T20:31:21Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: I think that quicklisp does that, so usually people doesn't need to care about issueing (require 'asdf)
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2016-07-20T20:37:15Z relyks: Does anyone of a tool that lets you design s-expressions by creating trees in a gui?
2016-07-20T20:38:58Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: ahh, I'm updating the sans quicklisp instructions in the clx readme so I wanted to check
2016-07-20T20:39:42Z phoe_krk: relyks: I've seen a tool that goes the other way around.
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2016-07-20T20:39:48Z phoe_krk: Creates graphical trees out of sexps.
2016-07-20T20:40:03Z phoe_krk: What would you need it for?
2016-07-20T20:40:08Z relyks: phoe_krk: that'd actually be useful for me too. do you remember what it's called?
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2016-07-20T20:40:52Z relyks: phoe_krk: I actually just learning lisp with the little schemer. I want to be create test s-expressions for my functions
2016-07-20T20:41:07Z relyks: test driven development? :D
2016-07-20T20:41:30Z phoe_krk: relyks: I don't mean to interrupt you in your way of working, but I'd actually suggest going the vanilla way and doing it through text.
2016-07-20T20:41:50Z phoe_krk: If you want to see the depth, you can use RAINBOW-DELIMITERS installable as an Emacs package.
2016-07-20T20:42:01Z relyks: what do you mean? like create s-expressions myself in text?
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2016-07-20T20:42:44Z phoe_krk: https://i.sli.mg/dIIWIb.png
2016-07-20T20:42:46Z phoe_krk: Write them!
2016-07-20T20:42:51Z phoe_krk: That's how rainbow-delimiters work for me.
2016-07-20T20:42:58Z phoe_krk: Don't focus on the code for now, focus on the parens.
2016-07-20T20:43:33Z relyks: omg, that's seriously awesome!
2016-07-20T20:43:39Z phoe_krk: relyks: inorite?
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2016-07-20T20:43:49Z phoe_krk: Just make sure to configure them to use different colors.
2016-07-20T20:43:57Z phoe_krk: The default ones are much less saturated.
2016-07-20T20:44:34Z relyks: I guess since I'm coding in scheme now, I should get used to using emacs right? :D
2016-07-20T20:44:35Z jackdaniel: relyks: what's arguably more useful is a proper tool for navigating through parens, it may be worth to learn paredit mode for emacs
2016-07-20T20:45:10Z phoe_krk: relyks: well, this is a Common Lisp channel. You might want #scheme for Scheme. But the general paren guidelines stay the same, methinks.
2016-07-20T20:45:14Z jackdaniel: relyks: you may ask on #scheme what is best tool to work with scheme, people here tend to work in Common Lisp (and emacs) which is pretty differnet
2016-07-20T20:45:22Z jackdaniel: different°
2016-07-20T20:45:54Z phoe_krk: also what jackdaniel said about paredit; it's a very powerful tool once you're in emacs.
2016-07-20T20:46:03Z phoe_krk: But I do like my rainbow parens.
2016-07-20T20:46:22Z relyks: thanks jackdaniel and phoe_krk I appreciate it
2016-07-20T20:46:27Z phoe_krk: relyks: no problem
2016-07-20T20:47:06Z phoe_krk: But again: the two basic things are
2016-07-20T20:47:16Z phoe_krk: 1) editor's support for automatic indentation
2016-07-20T20:47:44Z phoe_krk: as Lisp isn't actually written, or read, by parens - indentation is what makes it readable
2016-07-20T20:47:52Z phoe_krk: 2) editor's support for aiding you with parens
2016-07-20T20:48:05Z relyks: btw, I was asking in here too because parentheses are common to both lisp languages :D
2016-07-20T20:48:10Z phoe_krk: the basicmost help you can get is your editor automatically counting them for you and showing the matching one.
2016-07-20T20:48:36Z phoe_krk: but there are tools like paredit that are actually advanced and created for writing Lisp code.
2016-07-20T20:48:55Z phoe_krk: relyks: ##lisp is the channel for all things all Lisps!
2016-07-20T20:49:47Z relyks: oh hah
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2016-07-20T20:51:09Z phoe_krk: Well - if you ever decide to end up in emacs, SLIME (the bridge between Lisp/Scheme and emacs) is able to work with many Scheme implementations.
2016-07-20T20:51:18Z phoe_krk: And obviously Common Lisp.
2016-07-20T20:53:20Z PuercoPop: Does anyone know What is the proper way to include the LLGPL in a repository. Do I just add this preamble (http://opensource.franz.com/preamble.html) to the LLGPL Text in the License file?
2016-07-20T20:53:47Z dxtr: phoe_krk: Oh, I thought slime was for common lisp and geiser for scheme. But can I use slime for both?
2016-07-20T20:54:11Z phoe_krk: dxtr: there are Swank implementations for various Schemes.
2016-07-20T20:54:22Z PuercoPop: dxtr: you can even use slime for R!
2016-07-20T20:54:27Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: wat
2016-07-20T20:54:32Z PuercoPop: (and there was a swankjs)
2016-07-20T20:54:37Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: look under the contribs
2016-07-20T20:54:49Z dxtr: So then why am I using geiser?
2016-07-20T20:55:08Z PuercoPop: Christopher Rhodes contributed that
2016-07-20T20:55:15Z phoe_krk: ...
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2016-07-20T20:55:39Z PuercoPop: dxtr: I don't think the contributed modules in slime are well tested but ymmv
2016-07-20T20:56:04Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/swank-js/swank-js
2016-07-20T20:56:07Z phoe_krk: ..........
2016-07-20T20:56:24Z phoe_krk: what the fsck am I reading
2016-07-20T20:56:32Z phoe_krk: Lisp is blowing my mind one more time
2016-07-20T20:56:53Z phoe_krk: so SLIME now stands for Superior Live Interaction Mode for Emacs?
2016-07-20T20:57:48Z PuercoPop: lol
2016-07-20T20:59:05Z PuercoPop: well Slime is a sexp protocol to control emacs in some part (and to control the inferior lisp in another part)
2016-07-20T20:59:48Z PuercoPop: clojure initially used Slime as well, then they wrote nrepl.el (now renamed cider)
2016-07-20T21:02:07Z phoe_krk: Yes - but once you get past the sexp part, you're able to put any string to evaluate in the environment.
2016-07-20T21:02:25Z phoe_krk: So as long as you have an EVAL function in your language, you're able to implement Slime.
2016-07-20T21:03:14Z Bike: but if all you have is eval it's not very superior.
2016-07-20T21:03:51Z phoe_krk: that's where the whole rest of Slime comes in to be able to implement the debugger, inspector and so on.
2016-07-20T21:04:01Z phoe_krk: If your language allows.
2016-07-20T21:04:19Z phoe_krk: If not, well, you got a REPL in emacs. That's already something.
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2016-07-20T21:06:12Z PuercoPop: one thing that would be useful would be add support for a JS 'front end' for slime (using code mirror)
2016-07-20T21:07:08Z PuercoPop: it would allow easier embedding of lisp REPLs in web pages (and security could be handled by forbidding syscalls)
2016-07-20T21:07:25Z phoe_krk: So basically implementing SLIME in JS.
2016-07-20T21:07:39Z phoe_krk: And allowing it to connect to some sort of a Swank instance.
2016-07-20T21:07:45Z Bike: just a repl is inferior lisp. comes with emacs and i think there's a generalized version somewhere. that's why slime is superior.
2016-07-20T21:08:13Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: the elisp part of slime
2016-07-20T21:09:32Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: ayup. The Lisp part of slime is swank.
2016-07-20T21:12:41Z PuercoPop: well you still probably will have to write a websocket proxy for swank
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2016-07-20T21:21:44Z PuercoPop: the jscl repo has been inaccessible for ~3 days due to gh blocking the author!
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2016-07-20T21:26:09Z moore33: What's that about?
2016-07-20T21:28:27Z phoe_krk: gh?
2016-07-20T21:28:29Z PuercoPop: moore33: https://twitter.com/davazp/status/755063771668832256, I have the git repo locally but not the wiki or the issues
2016-07-20T21:28:30Z PuercoPop: the wiki
2016-07-20T21:29:05Z phoe_krk: God damn them about this
2016-07-20T21:29:10Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: github, if only it was hosted on c-l (first time i've thought that)
2016-07-20T21:29:33Z phoe_krk: huh
2016-07-20T21:29:34Z phoe_krk: right
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2016-07-20T21:36:56Z rpg has no idea what a "line note" is on github, but I didn't let that bother me -- added one to CLX!
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2016-07-20T21:37:25Z phoe_krk: Lisp design question.
2016-07-20T21:38:21Z phoe_krk: I want to declare a class as immutable in my protocol. Is it therefore sane and/or advisable to declare erroring SETF on that class's accesso--
2016-07-20T21:38:30Z phoe_krk: --oh right. I don't. I declare readers instead of accessors.
2016-07-20T21:38:32Z phoe_krk: Thanks!
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2016-07-20T21:39:09Z phoe_krk: #lisp is my favorite channel because of this. I keep on answering the questions I ask myself on here, which provides me with virtually no lag when waiting for answers to my questions.
2016-07-20T21:40:06Z phoe_krk: Bbl!
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2016-07-20T21:41:30Z PuercoPop: rpg: it is just a comment on a line of code
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2016-07-20T21:42:06Z rpg: PuercoPop: But it's not a comment that lives in the code.  So it's ....? Some weird kind of github-only metadata?
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2016-07-20T21:42:57Z PuercoPop: yeah, it is gh only metadata. on a Per commit basis i think. So you can see it on when loooking a the commits
2016-07-20T21:43:33Z rpg: Anyway, gave me the opportunity to respond to the remark about ACL-compat of CLX.
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2016-07-20T21:46:51Z barbone: hi
2016-07-20T21:47:51Z barbone: I've got a problem with trivial-timers on ecl: if I schedule a timer inside a thread, it suddenly timeouts whatever time I programmed for it :(
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2016-07-20T22:00:54Z phoe: oh look
2016-07-20T22:01:00Z phoe: this nickname stopped being registered some time ago
2016-07-20T22:01:04Z phoe claims
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2016-07-20T22:25:07Z rpg: jackdaniel: therep?
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2016-07-20T23:00:50Z pillton: phoe_krk: You can still modify a slot of an instance using (setf (slot-value instance) value).
2016-07-20T23:01:08Z pillton: phoe_krk: You need to use the MOP and define a method for slot-value-using-class.
2016-07-20T23:01:13Z pillton: mop slot-value-using-class
2016-07-20T23:01:13Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-value-using-class.html
2016-07-20T23:01:41Z Bike: or just say that doing that is undefined.
2016-07-20T23:01:59Z pillton: Personally, I think it is a waste of time.
2016-07-20T23:02:06Z Bike: i mean, technically you could probably use standard-instance-access and shit
2016-07-20T23:04:02Z phoe: pillton: I won't do it.
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2016-07-20T23:04:18Z phoe: I'll just define a reader in the protocol.
2016-07-20T23:04:28Z phoe: Whoever uses SETF SLOT-VALUE is not going the way I intended him to go,.
2016-07-20T23:04:44Z rpg: phoe: Right.  This isn't Java where you lock people down because... well, I don't even know why.
2016-07-20T23:04:58Z phoe: We're civilized programmers.
2016-07-20T23:05:14Z rpg: phoe: "If you try to set this slot you are breaking the rules. But if you think you know what you're doing, I won't stop you. On your own head be it."
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2016-07-20T23:05:32Z phoe: rpg: it's the rule all around Lisp, yup.
2016-07-20T23:06:06Z rpg: If you really want to ram the point home, you can define it like so (%slot% :reader slot)
2016-07-20T23:06:20Z phoe: rpg: I'm doing it that way.
2016-07-20T23:06:31Z phoe: So it's package::%slot.
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2016-07-20T23:06:37Z pillton: Or you could bury the data inside a closure.
2016-07-20T23:06:44Z phoe: pillton: ...
2016-07-20T23:06:47Z rpg: If the programmer is going to do (setf (slot-value <obj> '%slot%) ...) they are determined enough that no amount of MOPpery will stop them.
2016-07-20T23:06:47Z phoe: I'm not that paranoid.
2016-07-20T23:06:53Z phoe: Also, inspection issues for closures.
2016-07-20T23:07:30Z rpg: There's only so far you need to go to make yourself miserable to save some idiot from making him or herself miserable
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2016-07-20T23:07:51Z pillton: Yeah. I assume the user is smarter than me.
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2016-07-20T23:09:03Z pillton: phoe: Do you work in a team?
2016-07-20T23:09:25Z phoe: pillton: not on Lisp.
2016-07-20T23:09:34Z phoe: s/not/not yet/
2016-07-20T23:09:54Z pillton: Then there is your answer.
2016-07-20T23:10:11Z phoe: pillton: I don't get it yet.
2016-07-20T23:10:35Z phoe: Why would working in a team influence whether I set writers etc.?
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2016-07-20T23:11:21Z phoe: Also - I need to crash to sleep.
2016-07-20T23:11:22Z phoe: I
2016-07-20T23:11:26Z phoe: I'll read up tomorrow.
2016-07-20T23:11:27Z phoe: Night!
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2016-07-21T02:44:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-21T03:07:16Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-07-21T03:17:21Z pillton: Well look at that, SBCL inserts a shebang line into fasls.
2016-07-21T03:19:14Z loke: pillton: It's always done that.
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2016-07-21T03:19:32Z pillton missed the advertisement. 
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2016-07-21T04:18:56Z fugue: Howdy
2016-07-21T04:19:11Z beach: Hello fugue!
2016-07-21T04:21:14Z fugue: How's it going?
2016-07-21T04:22:35Z beach: Me?  Slow but steady progress.
2016-07-21T04:24:43Z fugue: I can't wait until next Friday. This summer 5 week semester has been chaos with 2 courses
2016-07-21T04:24:52Z fugue: I keep telling myself it'll be over soon.
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2016-07-21T04:31:42Z beach: And then you will do some Common Lisp programming?
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2016-07-21T04:56:19Z loke: beach: Of course he will
2016-07-21T04:56:38Z beach: Right.  Stupid question.  Sorry!
2016-07-21T04:56:56Z beach: loke: Are you still in Europe?
2016-07-21T04:57:05Z loke: beach: No. I'm back in SG
2016-07-21T04:57:06Z loke: Why?
2016-07-21T04:57:32Z beach: I was going to invite you to come visit.  Another time perhaps.
2016-07-21T04:58:55Z loke: beach: Ahh. Where are you at?
2016-07-21T04:59:09Z beach: Bordeaux, as usual.
2016-07-21T04:59:57Z loke: Thank you! Bordeaux would be a bit far away for me though. I'm usually in Paris when I'm working in Europe
2016-07-21T05:00:16Z loke: That's where our office is.
2016-07-21T05:00:16Z beach: There are direct, relatively fast, trains.
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2016-07-21T05:00:41Z beach: I did the roundtrip yesterday because I had to go to the embassy and renew my passport.
2016-07-21T05:01:42Z loke: 495 km, according to google maps. Wouldn't that take like, at least 4-5 hours?
2016-07-21T05:02:11Z beach: 3.5 hours one way currently.  2h in a few years.
2016-07-21T05:02:28Z loke: wait what? How?
2016-07-21T05:02:34Z loke: So 300 km/s?
2016-07-21T05:03:17Z beach: Per hour
2016-07-21T05:04:05Z beach: Right now it goes that fast from Paris to Tours, and then slower.  The plan is to go 300 km/h the entire way.
2016-07-21T05:07:39Z beach: Next time you are in Paris, if you don't want to make the trip, I can take a morning train to Paris, have lunch, and then go back.
2016-07-21T05:12:51Z loke: Yes. per hour :-)
2016-07-21T05:13:16Z loke: Otherwise it would be 0.1% of c. :-)
2016-07-21T05:14:07Z beach: Right.
2016-07-21T05:14:34Z loke: But that's OK, that's still a couple of orders of magnitude off before it can be seen as relativistic. :-)
2016-07-21T05:15:39Z beach: French train technology is good, but not quite that good yet.
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2016-07-21T05:17:41Z loke: beach: Don't buy chinese ones... We had a bit of controversy here recently:
2016-07-21T05:17:42Z loke: http://theindependent.sg/smrt-secretly-shipping-35-prc-made-trains-back-to-china-for-repairs/
2016-07-21T05:19:28Z beach: I'll tell the train company here.
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2016-07-21T05:19:53Z loke: You do that.
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2016-07-21T05:36:31Z pillton: I wish I was there when they asked a fixer to ship a train secretly.
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2016-07-21T05:38:54Z beach: What would you have done?
2016-07-21T05:39:50Z pillton: I probably would have laughed.
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2016-07-21T05:46:39Z papachan: morning
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2016-07-21T05:55:16Z beach: Hello papachan.  Sorry, got to go.
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2016-07-21T06:00:48Z jackdaniel: barbone: if you could put a reproductible, minimal (!) and selfcontaining testcase for your problem with timers and ECL on https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/ I'll try to help
2016-07-21T06:00:54Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2016-07-21T06:01:40Z pillton: G'day.
2016-07-21T06:03:26Z jackdaniel: phoe: basically civilization is mostly about restrictions and law enforcement. In that light we're barbarians (in context of your earlier statement)
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2016-07-21T07:44:47Z PuercoPop: btw jackdaniel I saw the other day you have a cl-who coleslaw plugin. Are you thinking of submitting it upstream?
2016-07-21T07:46:21Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: yes, in the first free time spot I'll have :)
2016-07-21T07:47:41Z PuercoPop: nice, consider using the collect idiom to avoid the reverse call.
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2016-07-21T07:48:26Z PuercoPop: you have at least one user of that plugin, I found it when through mordocai's blog
2016-07-21T07:48:43Z jackdaniel: oh, cool :-)
2016-07-21T07:49:25Z jackdaniel: well, while I can write in LOOP, I don't like it. Maybe do+ has something like collect though
2016-07-21T07:49:44Z jackdaniel: collect does the same thing ultimately, right? (ie nreverses the acc)
2016-07-21T07:49:58Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: no, I meant the with-collector.
2016-07-21T07:50:11Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: no, it doesn't, sec
2016-07-21T07:50:14Z Bike: collect repeatedly modifies a cons, it doesn't nreverse
2016-07-21T07:50:22Z jackdaniel: OK
2016-07-21T07:50:24Z Bike: iirc, doing that doesn't actually save you a lot of time, though
2016-07-21T07:50:35Z jackdaniel: what is with-collector? (never encountered it
2016-07-21T07:50:47Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/davazp/jscl/blob/master/src/utils.lisp#L21
2016-07-21T07:50:53Z PuercoPop: malisper blog about it as well
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2016-07-21T07:51:52Z PuercoPop: I never seem to remember if alexandria has one, serepebum does for sure. There is a named variant as well, where you define a local function that works as the collector
2016-07-21T07:51:54Z Bike: there's a super beefy "collect" macro in sbcl's guts, too
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2016-07-21T07:54:00Z jackdaniel: yes, it's cmucl heritage
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2016-07-21T07:54:01Z PuercoPop: the gist of it is saving a reference to the last cons in the list so one can insert to it in constant time
2016-07-21T07:54:02Z jackdaniel: ecl ahs it too
2016-07-21T07:54:25Z jackdaniel: yes, sounds pretty clever
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2016-07-21T08:04:37Z barbone: hi
2016-07-21T08:05:21Z jackdaniel: o/
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2016-07-21T08:06:05Z PuercoPop: Bike: Btw do you around which point is the collector idiom 'worth it'? In this case all the sexpified html tags are treated as a list
2016-07-21T08:06:23Z Bike: probably depends on a lot of boring things like how your cache works
2016-07-21T08:06:39Z Bike: this is something i'm just vaguely remembering, don't take it too seriously
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2016-07-21T08:19:49Z Grue`: looks like stackoverflow's regex blowup is reproducible in cl-ppcre: http://stackstatus.net/post/147710624694/outage-postmortem-july-20-2016
2016-07-21T08:19:51Z Grue`: (let* ((len 100000) (tst (make-string len :initial-element #\Space))) (setf (char tst (1- len)) #\k) (ppcre:scan "\\s+$" tst))
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2016-07-21T08:33:08Z barbone: jackdaniel: it is complicated to put up a test, I think I'm going to rewrite a general timer facility for my needs
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2016-07-21T08:34:57Z jackdaniel: barbone: I would appreciate the bug report anyway if it doesn't work
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2016-07-21T08:35:18Z jackdaniel: I'm more concerned about a bug in ECL honestly
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2016-07-21T08:39:54Z PuercoPop: Grue``: but irregsexp appears to be safe
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2016-07-21T10:21:20Z je4i: Somebody familiar with Caveman2?  I can't find out how to store a value in the session. Like hunchentoot:session-value.
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2016-07-21T11:36:39Z Grue``: je4i`: sounds like CONTEXT might be what you need
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2016-07-21T11:54:43Z je4i`: Ok.  I saw that but only with the advice 'Dont set this, ...'.  I did not find the proper way to store values there...
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2016-07-21T13:09:01Z Grue``: je4i`: actually *session* itself is a hash table
2016-07-21T13:09:25Z Grue``: you can add any values to it as you please
2016-07-21T13:09:38Z Grue``: for example https://github.com/tshatrov/codos/blob/master/src/view.lisp#L64
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2016-07-21T14:27:44Z rumbler31: hello #lisp
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2016-07-21T14:29:49Z rumbler31: is there a way to tell if the next read from a file stream would return eof without having to do the read?  I know character streams have peek-char but it still feels like there should be a cleaner way to discover this
2016-07-21T14:30:31Z dlowe: no. the file might be appended to by another process.
2016-07-21T14:30:43Z dlowe: so even if you were able to query, it might be wrong
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2016-07-21T14:31:12Z dlowe: it's nearly always better to try something and handle the error than it is to check first
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2016-07-21T14:31:51Z jdz: dlowe: but race conditions are so much fun!
2016-07-21T14:31:56Z Grue``: reading byte by byte is inefficient anyway, if you care about performance
2016-07-21T14:32:41Z rumbler31: ok.  I haven't done this in lisp yet, i'll play around
2016-07-21T14:34:00Z rumbler31: grue``: i eventually care about performance but I don't know how to do it any other way.
2016-07-21T14:34:04Z rumbler31: or*  what would I consider if I wanted to really care about performance
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2016-07-21T14:35:38Z Grue``: well, read-sequence might be faster
2016-07-21T14:36:30Z Grue``: typically reading a file in filesystem block-sized chunks is the fastest way
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2016-07-21T14:37:22Z rumbler31: i'm reading several 1-8 byte fields at a time, sometimes I have to read a cstring
2016-07-21T14:38:00Z Grue``: first you read the whole chunk into a buffer, then process this buffer
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2016-07-21T14:38:36Z Grue``: or read the entire file into memory if it fits there
2016-07-21T14:39:50Z rumbler31: so i could read-sequence for the whole object, and use a library to treat the sequence like a stream and read from that, you are saying that the filesystem read would be optimized if i read in chunks i guess?
2016-07-21T14:40:24Z jdz: file streams are usually buffered
2016-07-21T14:40:32Z jdz: no need to roll your own
2016-07-21T14:41:23Z rumbler31: oh well that's handy
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2016-07-21T14:59:52Z thornber: hi, what's the equality predicate for clos objects?
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2016-07-21T15:02:29Z jackdaniel: generally eql (checks if it's the same object), if you want to compare two distinct objects and claim they are "equal" then there is no generic conclusive answer to this question
2016-07-21T15:02:33Z jdz: thornber: EQ.  or read http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2016-07-21T15:02:35Z jackdaniel: so no, you have to write your own predicate
2016-07-21T15:02:54Z thornber: jackdaniel: ok, thx
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2016-07-21T15:06:35Z jackdaniel: sure
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2016-07-21T15:11:13Z dlowe: honestly, I think people wouldn't have bitched if CL had just made EQUAL and EQUALP generic
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2016-07-21T15:11:38Z dlowe: you've already decided to prioritize convenience by using them
2016-07-21T15:11:46Z dlowe: might as well make it even more convenient
2016-07-21T15:13:15Z jdz: the bitching users came too late?
2016-07-21T15:13:54Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/document/8/index.html
2016-07-21T15:16:19Z jdz: i don't think two parameters are enough
2016-07-21T15:16:58Z dlowe: hard to generically dispatch on more than two
2016-07-21T15:17:16Z dlowe: you can always reduce if you want to compare more
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2016-07-21T15:17:54Z jdz: no, i mean it's not enough to just provide A and B to compare -- one would also need a "context" on how exactly to do that
2016-07-21T15:18:16Z jdz: that's why there's no generic function that compares two CLOS instances
2016-07-21T15:18:19Z jackdaniel: well, equals uses &key parameters
2016-07-21T15:18:24Z jdz: everybody wants to compare them differently
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2016-07-21T15:18:53Z jackdaniel: and a few proposed "default" methods actually use the key parameters like :recursive or :case-sensitive
2016-07-21T15:18:57Z dlowe: yeah, the &key parameters allow you to pass whatever you want in
2016-07-21T15:19:15Z dlowe: so... great idea
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2016-07-21T15:19:55Z dlowe: the only oversight I see on a first pass over the CDR is the package of the symbols returned by COMPARE
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2016-07-21T15:20:02Z pjb: thornber: have a look at CDR#8 https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/document/8/index.html
2016-07-21T15:20:11Z pjb: Oh, already mentionned, sorry.
2016-07-21T15:20:12Z jackdaniel: pjb: I've just linked it
2016-07-21T15:20:13Z jdz: imagine persistent PERSON class: in one case one would want to treat two of them by just comparing the id, in other case first/last name, and in yet another all the fields
2016-07-21T15:20:41Z thornber: pjb: y, I expected there to be a generic fn for it
2016-07-21T15:20:56Z pjb: even with persistent person instances, you may want to have two instances representing the same person, perhaps before and after a given transaction.
2016-07-21T15:21:15Z jdz: yes, there's definitely more
2016-07-21T15:21:17Z jackdaniel: jdz: then you may (defmethod equals ((a person) (b person) &key (mode :full)) (case mode …))
2016-07-21T15:21:43Z pjb: thornber: not predefined. Because as there are EQL EQUAL EQUALP STRING= STRING-EQUAL etc, you may put CLOS instances in several different equivalence classes.
2016-07-21T15:22:00Z pjb: thornber: you may have to define different equalities even inside the same application.
2016-07-21T15:22:08Z jackdaniel: dlowe: what do you mean?
2016-07-21T15:22:19Z jdz: jackdaniel: and in each of the case clauses one would call a specific function?  how is that better that just cutting to the chase and using said functions directly?
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2016-07-21T15:23:06Z pjb: For example, to log in, you want to compare upon email/password, and then to search for a candidate date you would compare by other critera.
2016-07-21T15:23:08Z dlowe: jackdaniel: it uses symbols, but with no mention of what package they should be in. If they aren't in a package, then you're reduced to inefficient symbol-name comparisons
2016-07-21T15:23:18Z jackdaniel: dlowe: ah, I see now, thanks
2016-07-21T15:23:33Z dlowe: on the other hand, =, /=, <, and > are all already in the CL package
2016-07-21T15:23:36Z dlowe: so maybe it means that.
2016-07-21T15:23:45Z dlowe: but it would have been nice for it to be explicit
2016-07-21T15:23:46Z jackdaniel: jdz: well, it's better in the same spirit as setf is better than calling setq and rplaca
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2016-07-21T15:27:48Z jdz: yes, and it would be even better if there was a "comparable" facility, similar to "places" we already have
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2016-07-21T15:28:48Z jackdaniel: how so?
2016-07-21T15:29:17Z jdz: i don't know, have not thought about it, but it seems it would definitely be much more involved than a single generic function
2016-07-21T15:30:13Z jackdaniel: why do you think that? I'm not sure if I understand what do you mean by the "comparable" facility
2016-07-21T15:31:14Z jdz: maybe that's because it does not exist?
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2016-07-21T15:32:18Z jackdaniel: I'm asking what do you mean by a word you've used, not what it means in common lisp
2016-07-21T15:32:39Z jackdaniel: I figured it's not implemented, what I didn't understand what you have in mind saying that
2016-07-21T15:32:53Z jackdaniel: s/what you/is what you/
2016-07-21T15:33:15Z jdz: for one i think it would be good to have a way to get a comparison function without wrapping a call to the generic function (i.e., to get the right one from the case clause you showed previously)
2016-07-21T15:33:31Z jdz: wrap in a lambda
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2016-07-21T15:35:27Z jdz: like: (find-if (comparator person person :mode :full) people ...)
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2016-07-21T15:35:43Z jackdaniel: it's probably that I'm tired after the day, but I don't see why would you want that. Instead of calling (equals person-1 person-2 :mode :full) you propose (funcall (rev-equals person-1 person-2 :mode :full))
2016-07-21T15:36:32Z jdz: s/find-if/sort
2016-07-21T15:37:12Z jdz: umm, this is not working out
2016-07-21T15:38:40Z jdz: right, because comparing is not only about equality...
2016-07-21T15:39:02Z jdz: i'm complecting things as i go, as you can see
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2016-07-21T15:40:15Z jdz: (find joe people :test (comparator person person :mode :full)) would be what i meant initially
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2016-07-21T15:40:51Z jackdaniel: (find joe people :test (rcurry #'equals :mode :full)) gives you the same thing
2016-07-21T15:41:08Z jackdaniel: without adding additional abstraction
2016-07-21T15:41:09Z jdz: kind-of, yes
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2016-07-21T15:50:28Z je4i`: Grue``: very helpful, thx!
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2016-07-21T15:55:04Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-07-21T15:55:18Z jackdaniel: o/
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2016-07-21T16:22:41Z JustinHitla: so python is better than common lisp ?
2016-07-21T16:23:11Z jdz: JustinHitla: that joke is not even funny
2016-07-21T16:23:18Z beach: JustinHitla:  Yes, you are right.  So you had better go use it and abandon #lisp.
2016-07-21T16:23:33Z jackdaniel: feeding trolls ain't good :)
2016-07-21T16:23:37Z JustinHitla: so why Reddit was rewritten from common lisp to python then ?
2016-07-21T16:23:50Z jackdaniel: attention extends the period they stay on a channel
2016-07-21T16:23:52Z beach: JustinHitla: Go away!
2016-07-21T16:23:55Z hydraz is now known as hydrez
2016-07-21T16:23:56Z jdz: why don't you ask the people who did it? or search the web?
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2016-07-21T16:26:11Z varjag: JustinHitla: it's because python is superior, what other cause might be for a random company to switch technology
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2016-07-21T16:26:36Z varjag: one lisp implementation even acknowledged it by calling its compiler "python"
2016-07-21T16:26:43Z varjag: just google it
2016-07-21T16:27:24Z schally: "This article was first published in 2005" - this happened 11 years ago
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2016-07-21T16:30:34Z JustinHitla: from that page http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rewritingreddit "The Python version had less code that ran faster and was far easier to read and maintain", now I know the difference between lisp and python
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2016-07-21T16:32:54Z varjag: good
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2016-07-21T16:33:04Z varjag: now the question is why python is written in c
2016-07-21T16:33:31Z JustinHitla: because
2016-07-21T16:33:37Z schally: C must be better than python
2016-07-21T16:33:45Z varjag: perhaps if reddit skipped the middleman and went straight to c it could be even better
2016-07-21T16:33:46Z JustinHitla: C is fast and small
2016-07-21T16:34:02Z varjag: does that mean python is slow and bloated?
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2016-07-21T16:34:41Z jackdaniel: ¬(fast ^ small) === (slow v bloated)
2016-07-21T16:35:11Z varjag: now it all clicks into place
2016-07-21T16:35:24Z JustinHitla: because they knew python could become low and bloated so they didn't want it to become like that ahead of time
2016-07-21T16:35:43Z varjag: well it's been a decade now
2016-07-21T16:35:51Z varjag: perhaps it's time to rewrite it in python?
2016-07-21T16:36:02Z varjag: do a reddit trick
2016-07-21T16:36:21Z varjag: let guido know what you think
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2016-07-21T16:59:30Z JustinHitla: you can't caught me
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2016-07-21T17:10:08Z Grue``: if python is so superior, why is Hacker News written in Arc???
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2016-07-21T17:10:30Z warweasle: Arc? I wasn't sure that was used anywhere.
2016-07-21T17:10:48Z Grue``: that's probably the only place it's used
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2016-07-21T17:20:35Z sebboh: Please remind me about name spaces...  For example: (foo:function 'arg) ... What is foo called there?  A package?  Namespace?
2016-07-21T17:20:54Z Bike: a package
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2016-07-21T17:22:15Z sebboh: OK.  Now, how may I create a new package that is a superset of an existing one?  In my code I'm calling (library:this ...) (library:that ...) constantly.  So I want to make a "mycode" package which includes all of library, so that I can just call (this ...) and (that ...).
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2016-07-21T17:22:40Z Bike: usually you would just have your package USE library
2016-07-21T17:22:41Z sebboh: Without effing up library. :)
2016-07-21T17:22:54Z sebboh: USE?  ok, I'll look.
2016-07-21T17:22:58Z Bike: which means that when *package* =  your package, you can use symbols from library without qualification
2016-07-21T17:23:03Z Bike: clhs use-package
2016-07-21T17:23:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_use_pk.htm
2016-07-21T17:23:13Z Bike: though you probably want to put it in the defpackage form instead
2016-07-21T17:24:23Z sebboh: (defpackage :mycode (:use :library)) this is all coming back
2016-07-21T17:24:29Z sebboh: Right?
2016-07-21T17:24:32Z Bike: yes
2016-07-21T17:24:46Z sebboh: Thanks Bike.  <-- two words that I've typed more than once!
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2016-07-21T17:27:33Z PuercoPop: sebboh: you can use uiop:define-package and its reexport clause to 'extend' a package
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2016-07-21T17:27:44Z akkad: python runs on cl :P
2016-07-21T17:28:23Z PuercoPop: akkad: except of course for all the FFI code in Python, which because cpython "sucks", is a lot of code
2016-07-21T17:28:47Z akkad: ahh
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2016-07-21T17:32:13Z sebboh: so using the C-x C-s muscle memory in vi on a terminal that doesn't have C-s filtered out is pretty brutal.  You end up in a vi mode which is easy to exit: any invalid key will do.. but you're in C-s land, so you don't realize it.  Anyway: C-q a
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2016-07-21T17:34:40Z jackdaniel: dlowe: do you think it would be unwise to mandate these symbols to be in the keyword package? (regarding compare from cdr-8)
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2016-07-21T17:37:52Z dfigrish: hi there
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2016-07-21T19:10:06Z rumbler31: ok, trying to figure out what I should be doing.
2016-07-21T19:10:24Z rumbler31: I amd working with a binary file where I need to read some, and decide which function to call to continue reading based on what i've read so far.  like a riff file where the different sections are tagged and each tag has a length of the data section to follow
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2016-07-21T19:10:50Z rumbler31: any of the read calls can fail due to eof
2016-07-21T19:11:09Z rumbler31: but if i'm on the boundary of a tag, the eof is simply the correct end of file and all reads are complete
2016-07-21T19:11:35Z rumbler31: right now I don't care about dealing with what happens if the eof comes in the middle of reading a tag or data section
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2016-07-21T19:13:28Z nzambe: rumbler31:  have you looked at the ID3 tag parser in PCL? I think it was doing something along those lines
2016-07-21T19:13:35Z rumbler31: if I use read-sequence to get blocks of data, I can check its return value to see if I've read the expected number of bytes, this way detect a short read
2016-07-21T19:13:54Z rumbler31: nzambe: no, just the section on errors and restarts.  I'll read that next
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2016-07-21T19:46:37Z rumbler31: the part I don't get about the ID3 tag reader
2016-07-21T19:46:48Z rumbler31: nm didn't read far enough yet
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2016-07-21T20:03:08Z rumbler31: ohhhh
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2016-07-21T20:06:37Z nzambe: rumbler31: make sure you start with the practical before it on reading binary files, i think ID3 chapter builds on it
2016-07-21T20:07:04Z rumbler31: i've read that before, ended up implementing something inferior but enough for my needs.
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2016-07-21T20:08:44Z dfigrish: folks, is the HTML-TEMPLATE by Edi Weitz currently maintained?
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2016-07-21T20:12:29Z H4ns: dfigrish: it won't be a problem to get a sensible pull request merged, if that is what you mean.
2016-07-21T20:12:46Z H4ns: dfigrish: other than that, there is no current development.  it is considered to be a mature library.
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2016-07-21T20:13:42Z dfigrish: H4ns: good to know. Although, I don't see it at https://github.com/edicl
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2016-07-21T20:14:52Z rumbler31: I know what I want to do, which would be to simply return the frames that have been successfully read.  this is ultimately what should be done whether we discover eof in the middle of a frame or at the proper end, but if the handler-case form is
2016-07-21T20:14:56Z rumbler31: nevermind, I think I see how to do it
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2016-07-21T20:56:57Z dlowe: jackdaniel: considering it's intended to be a new part of CL, I think requiring them to be in CL would be fine
2016-07-21T20:57:35Z pjb: Nope. It should be in NEW-CL
2016-07-21T20:57:43Z pjb: or CL2017
2016-07-21T20:57:48Z dlowe: bleh
2016-07-21T20:57:52Z pjb: or whatever, but definitely not in CL.
2016-07-21T20:58:29Z dlowe: unfortunately, by the nature of CDR, we would have to make a new CDR with just that tweak, with a specification saying that it supersedes CDR 8
2016-07-21T20:58:35Z dlowe: Not sure it's worth it.
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2016-07-21T21:12:18Z plertrood_: Hi, so I get (type-of 0) => bit.
2016-07-21T21:12:39Z dlowe: okay?
2016-07-21T21:12:41Z jackdaniel: what about CDR (with locks) and CDR-USER as an extended CL and CL-USER counterparts?
2016-07-21T21:12:41Z pjb: right.
2016-07-21T21:12:44Z plertrood_: Which means (boole 'boole-or 0 8) fails.
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2016-07-21T21:13:01Z jackdaniel: where CDR is CL + cdr extensions
2016-07-21T21:13:09Z plertrood_: Because it wants on integer.
2016-07-21T21:13:13Z dlowe: woah, you use boole?
2016-07-21T21:13:23Z Bike: plertrood_: no that fails because boole's first argument is not a symbol
2016-07-21T21:13:34Z dlowe: yeah, don't quote boole-or
2016-07-21T21:13:46Z Bike: also it's boole-ior
2016-07-21T21:13:54Z pjb: (boole boole-ior 0 8)  #| --> 8 |#
2016-07-21T21:13:59Z dlowe: (typep 0 'integer) => T
2016-07-21T21:13:59Z plertrood_: Ah crap..
2016-07-21T21:14:08Z plertrood_: I suck at reading documentation.
2016-07-21T21:14:17Z plertrood_: Yeah that works fine.
2016-07-21T21:14:22Z Bike: you should have gotten an ereror like "The value BOOLE-OR is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 4)"
2016-07-21T21:14:39Z Bike: rather than "The value 0 is not of type INTEGER", or something (which would of course be ridiculous)
2016-07-21T21:15:10Z plertrood_: I did, except it wanted type (integer 0 15)
2016-07-21T21:15:16Z Bike: yeah, sure.
2016-07-21T21:15:24Z Bike: so it's complaining about the value BOOLE-OR, not the zero.
2016-07-21T21:15:27Z plertrood_: I didn't read it properly..
2016-07-21T21:15:42Z pjb: The identity and value of those variables is implementation-dependent!
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2016-07-21T21:16:12Z pjb: They could be bound to symbols, to (integer 32543543 31239128938) or to private values.
2016-07-21T21:16:21Z Bike: yes. the point is the value in question
2016-07-21T21:16:59Z plertrood_: I see. In CCL boole-ior is 7.
2016-07-21T21:17:11Z pjb: Just by pure chance.
2016-07-21T21:17:19Z PuercoPop: plertrood_: also bit is a subtype of integer. (There is a nice graph here: http://sellout.github.io/media/CL-type-hierarchy.png )
2016-07-21T21:17:23Z pjb: It could have been "sept".
2016-07-21T21:17:54Z Bike: also also, usually you'd just use logior.
2016-07-21T21:17:55Z plertrood_: Wow thats a great pic thanks.
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2016-07-21T21:18:16Z pjb: or #'logior
2016-07-21T21:18:22Z plertrood_: Ah yes logior works too.
2016-07-21T21:18:47Z plertrood_: Thanks. That seems a bit more of a logical function to use.
2016-07-21T21:18:48Z pjb: (defvar boole-ior (function logior)) (defun boole (op a b) (funcall op a b))
2016-07-21T21:19:21Z Bike: boole exists for machines where there's some kind of dispatch to the ALU, and so the boole call can be compiled pretty directly into some instruction
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2016-07-21T21:19:31Z Bike: which is not really something to worry about nowadays
2016-07-21T21:19:58Z plertrood_: Ah.. historical cruft.. :-)
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2016-07-21T21:20:59Z Bike: the clhs has an example definition for using numeric indices instead of the opaque specifiers... what on earth
2016-07-21T21:21:22Z pjb: examples are not binding.
2016-07-21T21:21:41Z Bike: it doesn't say anything about how boole works. i'm just weirded out that someone would use this
2016-07-21T21:22:26Z pjb: Well, it's classical: al lot of graphic packages have something similar for compositing images.
2016-07-21T21:22:33Z rme: Here's an article by Erik Naggum from an old comp.lang.lisp thread on boole: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/iYf4dnKuR1M/R64QioB5vn4J
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2016-07-21T21:23:02Z Bike: yeah, that's what i was remembering from.
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2016-07-21T22:03:51Z rumbler31: in pcl, the practical about id3 tag parsing, in the section just before "detecting tag padding", there is a paragraph where he mentions that one way to detect padding is to read an extra byte after the end of the expected frame length.  What I don't understand is how this makes sense in his example.  If we read a frame plus one byte, his code returns that frame (the read-frame plus one byte definition is not given, just the prior description
2016-07-21T22:03:51Z rumbler31:  of its behavior).  since the notional function returns the frame that was read or nil, I don't know what effect this notional function is supposed to have
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2016-07-21T22:05:47Z rumbler31: i know it seems a little dumb to discuss behavior the author never defines, but I want to make sure i'm not missing something.  the way I read what he's talking about, read-frame eventually knows the size of the frame to be read and simply returns it
2016-07-21T22:07:11Z rumbler31: the higher level loop knows the size of the entire set of frames.  so if read-frame is "supposed to read a frame and an extra byte"  well already this doesn't make sense because the next call to read-frame would be looking at a stream with a good byte missing from the front
2016-07-21T22:07:54Z rumbler31: while the author addresses this next, I don't understand why he's suggesting that this is a valid approach in the first place, unless it is and there is something else I don't understand
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2016-07-21T23:12:29Z Bike: rumbler31: this seems to be covered in the detecting tag padding section.
2016-07-21T23:12:46Z Bike: "Unfortunately, if you read the byte in read-frame, then it won't be available to be read by read-value."
2016-07-21T23:14:27Z rumbler31: so you see the author as saying "well if you thought we could just do it that way then you're wrong"
2016-07-21T23:14:38Z Bike: no?
2016-07-21T23:16:01Z Bike: i mean, that's how it's done, you can see it in the definitions in that section
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2016-07-21T23:23:10Z Bike: also i think you slightly misunderstood how it works. the tag reader reads a bunch of frames one at a time by calling read-frame repeatedly. if read-frame runs into a null byte, it means that the content of the tag is complete and all that's left is padding. so it's not that read-frame reads an extra byte for each frame, it's just that it sometimes starts reading an extra byte but gives up
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2016-07-21T23:31:18Z rumbler31: yes, i re-read what he was saying. he didn't mean read-frame reads a frame and a byte, it reads a byte and then decides to keep reading a frame or not
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2016-07-21T23:32:44Z Bike: right.
2016-07-21T23:34:14Z rumbler31: and since the decision on what to do needs to be made by read-frame, but the lower level code needs to read the data, you can't put that 1 byte read call in read-frame, instead use the lower leel code to signal
2016-07-21T23:34:17Z rumbler31: and now I seeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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2016-07-21T23:48:25Z jason_m`: Does series come with a way to convert a series (specifically the data computed so far) into one of CL's sequence types?  I suppose I could do it myself, building up a list or vector using series:iterate, but wondering if there is already a right way to do it.  I want to pass a series to a web page template where the template system know how to work with sequences.
2016-07-21T23:50:50Z Bike: jason_m`: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node354.html#SECTION003425000000000000000 i think
2016-07-21T23:51:41Z jason_m`: "Collectors produce non-series outputs based on series inputs."  Perfect!  Thanks Bike.
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2016-07-22T00:09:39Z jason_m: I *think* series is making it easier for me to implement some calculations.  However, I haven't gotten too far into understanding their implementation.  Any ideas on the warning given here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321001
2016-07-22T00:10:21Z jason_m: It produced the expected result, so I assume it is a performance warning of some sort.  Note that if I do everything inline, the warning is not produced.  Must have something to do what it knows at compile time?
2016-07-22T00:11:27Z Bike: um, it might just mean that it can skip making a series object at all if it's done all at once
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2016-07-22T00:15:01Z jason_m: Maybe.  It is not clear to me what "Non-series to series data flow" means here.
2016-07-22T00:15:44Z jason_m: I thought I was going the opposite way, series to non-series!
2016-07-22T00:16:11Z Bike: yes, same. i'm not sure.
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2016-07-22T00:29:15Z drmeister: Would it be a bad idea to have a PATH-like variable for Common Lisp REQUIRE and to tie it into ASDF?
2016-07-22T00:31:08Z Bike: sbcl has a module-provider-functions that is i think the same idea
2016-07-22T00:31:18Z Bike: er. depending on how you mean to tie
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2016-07-22T00:35:02Z drmeister: You have reminded me that module-provider-functions are a mechanism for what I want.
2016-07-22T00:35:05Z drmeister: Thank you.
2016-07-22T00:36:24Z Bike: okay cool
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2016-07-22T01:09:52Z banktalk: is there an elegant way to comine two character streams into one?
2016-07-22T01:10:39Z banktalk: for example, I want to compare the characters in two infinite streams in pairs
2016-07-22T01:10:40Z Xach: banktalk: what are the semantics you want?
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2016-07-22T01:11:12Z Xach: streams in common lisp can't really be infinite.
2016-07-22T01:11:27Z banktalk: uhh so something like (compare-strings str1 str2 #'(lambda (c1 c2) (char= c1 c2)))
2016-07-22T01:11:55Z banktalk: i say infinite because i want to avoid having to hold these large character streams in memory
2016-07-22T01:12:13Z Bike: and what would you get out of that? (also, you can just have #'char=, obviously)
2016-07-22T01:12:22Z Xach: No, there is no existing thing for that. It would involve opening the streams and looping.
2016-07-22T01:12:37Z banktalk: are there no pipes in lisp?
2016-07-22T01:12:50Z banktalk: i was hoping to create a pipe that would combine the streams
2016-07-22T01:13:00Z banktalk: and then i could write a function that looks at the output of the piped stream
2016-07-22T01:13:37Z Xach: There is nothing like that built-in.
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2016-07-22T01:14:12Z banktalk: can you think of a way to use a closure to achieve a pipe? that's what i've been struggling with...
2016-07-22T01:15:36Z Xach: Is the goal to compare two files? Or is it more the abstract thing, for other problems?
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2016-07-22T01:18:04Z banktalk: the abstraction is the goal. ideally there would exist a function like (combine-streams s1 s2 #'combine-fn) where the output would be a stream returns calls of #'combine-fn on s1 and s2
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2016-07-22T01:18:44Z banktalk: i'm pretty new to lisp, so i'm hoping there's something obvious that i'm missing here
2016-07-22T01:19:31Z Xach: There's nothing built-in to common lisp that does that.
2016-07-22T01:19:39Z banktalk: hmm ok
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2016-07-22T01:19:47Z Xach: If you wanted something like that, you could make a protocol for combining stateful things like streams.
2016-07-22T01:20:05Z banktalk: right
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2016-07-22T01:20:56Z banktalk: it really feels like i could do it with a simple closure... i'll think about it some more
2016-07-22T01:21:03Z rme: Oh, are you talking about streams not as a way to do I/O to files, but streams in the sense of something like this http://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/papers/contin.pdf?
2016-07-22T01:21:23Z banktalk: lol
2016-07-22T01:21:29Z banktalk: i already have that open in one of my tabs
2016-07-22T01:23:07Z banktalk: rme: yes, that's the concept i'm going for
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2016-07-22T01:23:24Z pillton: banktalk: You can do it using closures.
2016-07-22T01:23:28Z pillton: banktalk: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-24.html#%_sec_3.5
2016-07-22T01:24:02Z pillton: That is for scheme, but you should get the idea.
2016-07-22T01:24:13Z rme: You might like reading about Dick Waters's SERIES package.  http://series.sourceforge.net
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2016-07-22T01:30:55Z banktalk: is there a test function for the end of stream in CL?
2016-07-22T01:31:26Z pillton: clhs listen
2016-07-22T01:31:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listen.htm
2016-07-22T01:32:25Z pillton: The word stream is very often associated with performing I/O.
2016-07-22T01:32:44Z rme: banktalk: You're going to confuse everybody in the channel if you don't make it clear whether you're talking about a stream == a source/sink of characters or bytes (used for i/o)., vs. stream as essentially a lazy list.
2016-07-22T01:35:54Z banktalk: rme: oh. i'm talking about a stream used for i/o. and i was looking for a pipe (or filter?) of some sort that would translate the (possibly) infinite stream into a different stream.
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2016-07-22T01:37:12Z pillton: You don't need a pipe. You need a new input stream which reads and combines characters from the two "primitive" streams.
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2016-07-22T01:37:37Z banktalk: pillton: that's exactly what i want. i thought that was called a pipe
2016-07-22T01:37:51Z pillton: No. A pipe has one process which writes and other which reads.
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2016-07-22T01:38:06Z pillton: There is no writing here. Just reading.
2016-07-22T01:38:12Z pillton: ...and error handling.
2016-07-22T01:38:22Z banktalk: well, the writing is being done outside the program
2016-07-22T01:38:25Z banktalk: but i see what you mean
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2016-07-22T01:39:33Z banktalk: can streams be combined nicely like i want? maybe i could subclass the stream type
2016-07-22T01:39:48Z banktalk: and then build some machinery on top of the read-* methods that i want
2016-07-22T01:39:50Z pillton: You need to use the gray-stream standard.
2016-07-22T01:39:56Z banktalk: what is that?
2016-07-22T01:40:34Z Bike: it's how you subclass the stream type, more or less
2016-07-22T01:40:49Z pillton: banktalk: http://www.cliki.net/Gray%20streams
2016-07-22T01:41:07Z pillton: There is a system called trivial-gray-streams which handles implementation differences.
2016-07-22T01:41:57Z Xach: banktalk: so this is just a theoretical exercise with no immediate application?
2016-07-22T01:42:20Z pillton: You only need to use gray streams if you want the return value of your combine-streams function to be usable by functions like read, read-line.
2016-07-22T01:43:02Z pillton: I'd answer Xach's question too.
2016-07-22T01:43:12Z banktalk: pillton: yes that's what i want.
2016-07-22T01:43:19Z banktalk: and gray streams seem like just the thing! thanks!
2016-07-22T01:44:37Z banktalk: Xach: uhh... i've been trying to learn Lisp this last couple weeks and came across exercism.io. the first exercise i think would be done most elegantly by using character streams
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2016-07-22T01:44:59Z banktalk: the particular exercise could be solved trivially in a variety of way
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2016-07-22T01:45:19Z banktalk: but it got me thinking on how i woud do stuff with stream in CL the same way i'm used to doing them in other languages like Python
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2016-07-22T01:45:49Z Bike: "Write a program that can calculate the Hamming difference between two DNA strands."?
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2016-07-22T01:45:54Z XachX_: I don't think that will be a very productive way to learn CL
2016-07-22T01:45:58Z banktalk: Bike: yeah. lol
2016-07-22T01:46:31Z banktalk: XachX_: exercism.io? yeah, of course not.
2016-07-22T01:46:37Z Bike: no, copying python
2016-07-22T01:46:44Z banktalk: XachX_: unless you mean emulating python.
2016-07-22T01:47:05Z banktalk: and no that's not my intention. but surely i should be able to do everything i do in python in CL as well
2016-07-22T01:47:26Z banktalk: are Gray Streams not very lispy?
2016-07-22T01:47:45Z Bike: they're fine, but you're solving the problem in kind of an odd way
2016-07-22T01:48:17Z Bike: i don't know how exactly they present the problem, but i'd just do (loop for n1 across strand1 for n2 across strand2 unless (char= n1 n2) sum 1)
2016-07-22T01:48:31Z banktalk: Bike: that's exactly what i did
2016-07-22T01:48:55Z banktalk: but then there were test cases for if one sequence was longer than the other. you have build some more machinery in for that...
2016-07-22T01:49:13Z banktalk: and then i thought, "what if they never end?"
2016-07-22T01:49:22Z Bike: i assure you that DNA sequences have ends
2016-07-22T01:49:25Z Oladon: banktalk: What they're saying is that in learning a new language, it's best to not approach it as "how do I do X the same way I'd do it in <different> language", but rather "how is X done in <target language>"
2016-07-22T01:49:25Z banktalk: or what if the input was just two streams of characters
2016-07-22T01:49:39Z banktalk: Bike: lol yes of course they do
2016-07-22T01:49:39Z Bike: 5' or 3'
2016-07-22T01:49:56Z Bike: computing the hamming distance for infinite sequences is not well defined, as far as i know
2016-07-22T01:50:06Z Bike: i'm not sure it's even well defined for different lengths
2016-07-22T01:50:46Z banktalk: Oladon: ok. yeah, i definitely want to learn a new way to do things. Python is great, but i'm really liking the style of lisp a lot better.
2016-07-22T01:51:13Z Xach:  
2016-07-22T01:51:15Z banktalk: Bike: ok ok. i could reword the problem if you would like
2016-07-22T01:51:17Z Bike: incidentally, the python3 solution on wikipedia is (reduce #'+ (mapcar (lambda (c1 c2) (if (char= c1 c2) 0 1)) s1 s2))
2016-07-22T01:51:43Z banktalk: map-reduce is good technique too
2016-07-22T01:52:09Z banktalk: but you have to look at the sequences twice
2016-07-22T01:52:59Z Bike: with input streams i would do something like (loop unless (char= (read-char s1) (read-char s2)) sum 1), since there's no particular stopping criterion
2016-07-22T01:54:19Z Bike: levenshtein distance or something that would work on uneven lengths would be more of a pain
2016-07-22T01:55:06Z Bike: so, uh, i guess my point is that making a gray stream class for this is kind of a bizarre path.
2016-07-22T01:55:17Z banktalk: ah, i think that loop works really here.
2016-07-22T01:55:36Z banktalk: a gray stream class for a one-step problem is definitely overkill
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2016-07-22T01:56:34Z banktalk: but in a more general setting, it think it could be much more powerful. like if you had a function that acted on streams that look a certain way, you could take the raw input strings and transform and combine them using gray stream classes
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2016-07-22T01:57:11Z banktalk: that only acted*
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2016-07-22T01:58:25Z Bike: a string is an array, a stream is an I/O thing (also, one item at a time), they're not immediately compatible
2016-07-22T01:58:37Z Bike: you can do some fancy stuff with the lazy list kind of stream as mentioned, and there are some libraries for that
2016-07-22T01:59:40Z pillton: Just think of the stream composition in (read (reduction-stream #'+ (combine-stream s1 s2 #'distance))).
2016-07-22T02:01:07Z banktalk: pillton: is redution-stream something additional you would define?
2016-07-22T02:01:58Z pillton: Yeah. I'm just illustrating your proposed pattern of composing input streams.
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2016-07-22T06:04:09Z reepca-laptop: Does drakma support http/2.0?
2016-07-22T06:05:15Z loke: reepca-laptop: No
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2016-07-22T06:24:45Z leo_song: Hoe to implement the data type SYMBOL in lisp?
2016-07-22T06:24:58Z leo_song: Hoe/How
2016-07-22T06:25:04Z Bike: what do you mean, how to implement? it's already implemented.
2016-07-22T06:25:49Z leo_song: I'm try to make a small Lisp myself
2016-07-22T06:26:18Z Bike: well, a lisp symbol has two components, its name (a string) and its package (a package)
2016-07-22T06:26:29Z Bike: so uh... have that. that's pretty much it, most of the hard part is packages.
2016-07-22T06:27:10Z leo_song: I used to implement intern symbol as an integer while compiling bytecode
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2016-07-22T06:27:45Z leo_song: I have a mapping table to match a symbol with it's namestring
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2016-07-22T06:28:37Z leo_song: But I get in trouble when i try to dump the bytecode into files
2016-07-22T06:28:53Z Bike: well i have no idea what "intern symbol as an integer" means.
2016-07-22T06:29:08Z Bike: or what bytecode has to do with it. you have some kind of map, dump that.
2016-07-22T06:29:53Z leo_song: but while export the bytecode to file
2016-07-22T06:30:06Z Bike: chopped up sentences don't help
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2016-07-22T06:30:35Z leo_song: (sorry, inputing with a mobile phone)
2016-07-22T06:31:42Z leo_song: I implement constant symbol value in functions as integers
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2016-07-22T06:33:33Z leo_song: so, when loading multiple exported bytecode file, merging those symbol string-integer table turned out to be an issue
2016-07-22T06:34:27Z leo_song: so i wonder how those well known lisp implementation present symbol data typr inside them.
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2016-07-22T06:36:23Z Bike: you could just have symbols in bytecode be pointers
2016-07-22T06:36:52Z Bike: constructed or located by the loader and fixed up in the bytecode, i guess
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2016-07-22T06:38:50Z leo_song: Good idea. Thanks!
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2016-07-22T06:41:48Z leo_song: What about this:
2016-07-22T06:42:46Z leo_song: the runtime maintain a pointer-string table.
2016-07-22T06:42:56Z leo_song: while each file have it's own
2016-07-22T06:44:42Z leo_song: when loading a bytecode file, runtime attach a pointer to each int-string pair in the table of bytecode file.
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2016-07-22T06:46:46Z leo_song: so an "EQ" operation would first looking in the mapping table in the bytecode file, get the pointer, and finally look in the runtime mapping table to see if these two symbol equal
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2016-07-22T06:50:51Z ggole: Yikes.
2016-07-22T06:51:42Z ggole: leo_song: traditionally eq is a very, very simple operation: essentially, whether the bits of the value are equal. No dereferencing or anything like that.
2016-07-22T06:54:02Z leo_song: ggole: oh, you get me back to the zero point
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2016-07-22T06:54:11Z leo_song: so, how to implement SYMBOL in a lisp???
2016-07-22T06:54:57Z loke: leo_song: I think that you need to fix up (some kind of relocation if you like) all symbol references in an object when you load them.
2016-07-22T06:55:27Z loke: Since, as you noted, a symbol reference changes when you restart an instance.
2016-07-22T06:56:10Z Bike: which is to say, once the symbol is canonical in whatever sense in your image, you edit the bytecode to use it more directly.
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2016-07-22T06:57:16Z loke: Bike: That is pretty much identical to how relocatable libraries are loaded by dlopen
2016-07-22T06:57:42Z ggole: Don't you need to do that for any constant object?
2016-07-22T06:57:54Z leo_song: But rewriting the symbol code in the compiled functions could be very complex(or slow?)
2016-07-22T06:58:12Z ggole: I don't think it needs to be complex.
2016-07-22T06:58:53Z ggole: Basically you have an array of locations which need to be adjusted at load time
2016-07-22T06:59:25Z leo_song: Em, just looking through the array of bytecode, find and rewrite?
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2016-07-22T07:00:11Z ggole: Any place where a pointer to the object is stored.
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2016-07-22T07:00:19Z ggole: eg, constant tables or that kind of thing.
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2016-07-22T07:02:14Z leo_song: Store constant values in a table, and use a reference as op code argument?
2016-07-22T07:02:28Z leo_song: like python VM?
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2016-07-22T07:18:15Z ggole: leo_song: yeah. If you do that, then of course you need to update the constants as well. Can't leave em pointing to the wrong place.
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2016-07-22T07:32:07Z leo_song: Ok, thank you. I'll try this way.
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2016-07-22T11:36:24Z mrottenkolber: So usocket has a new function socket-shutdown, is there any documentation on what it does anywhere?
2016-07-22T11:39:13Z pjb`: mrottenkolber: no need for a documentation, it's a classic TCP feature.
2016-07-22T11:39:30Z pjb`: mrottenkolber: it closes just one side of the bidirectional stream.
2016-07-22T11:39:33Z moore33: man 2 shutdown
2016-07-22T11:39:37Z pjb`: Nope.
2016-07-22T11:39:53Z moore33: ?
2016-07-22T11:40:05Z pjb`: Oh, right, man 2 shutdown. I thought it was a primitive for 1 shutdown :-)
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2016-07-22T11:40:28Z moore33: Heh, I had just typed man shutdown with predictable results ;)
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2016-07-22T11:40:35Z pjb`: (I must confess shamefully that lately I've been using shutdown(1) a lot on my workstation at home).
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2016-07-22T11:45:21Z mrottenkolber: well, might make sense to at least note that in the docs (e.g “see shutdown(2)”)
2016-07-22T11:45:25Z mrottenkolber: thanks though!
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2016-07-22T11:48:49Z mrottenkolber: I need to truncate an input stream after N bytes, is there any library that makes this easy?
2016-07-22T11:49:10Z mrottenkolber: (except the obvious gray stream solution)
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2016-07-22T11:51:06Z mrottenkolber: ah flexi streams :-)
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2016-07-22T12:14:49Z pjb`: mrottenkolber: notice that there's no POSIX function to truncate a file!  (only linux and BSD since 4.2 have a truncate(2) syscall).
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2016-07-22T12:15:11Z pjb`: mrottenkolber: so the obvious way to "truncate" a file, is to make a shorter copy.
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2016-07-22T12:43:52Z rumbler31: hello #lisp
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2016-07-22T13:18:27Z rumbler31: is there a performance gain to be had by using a with-slots form vs serial setfs to accessor methods?  i have a macro that does the latter, so typing convenience isn't the quesion
2016-07-22T13:19:39Z dlowe: There is not a performance gain on sbcl.
2016-07-22T13:20:32Z rumbler31: in hindsight it seems the former makes the macro cleaner to write.
2016-07-22T13:20:32Z Grue``: I'd think setting a slot would be faster than using an accessor, because accessor is a CLOS method and has to be dispatched and stuff
2016-07-22T13:20:57Z rumbler31: sorry, i though those were the same things?
2016-07-22T13:20:58Z dlowe: setf expansion is essentially a macro
2016-07-22T13:20:59Z Grue``: maybe SBCL optimizes the simple accessors thouygh
2016-07-22T13:22:23Z rumbler31: grue``: how else is a slot set if not via setf on the accessor method?
2016-07-22T13:22:48Z Grue``: (setf (slot-value ...))
2016-07-22T13:22:52Z sjl: rumbler31: (setf (slot-value...))
2016-07-22T13:23:32Z rumbler31: oh....
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2016-07-22T13:24:37Z dlowe: and with-slots, of course.
2016-07-22T13:25:06Z dlowe: and :initform/:initarg in the slot definition
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2016-07-22T13:31:10Z moore33: The problem is that setting the slot and calling the writer generic function have different semantics, since the writer can have around methods, etc.
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2016-07-22T13:35:09Z dlowe: but in the end, it's easy to make good code fast, and very hard to make fast code good.
2016-07-22T13:35:20Z dlowe: so you should probably focus on whatever is most readable
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2016-07-22T13:38:14Z Grue``: and sometimes the code is both slow and bad
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2016-07-22T13:39:46Z rumbler31: i think currently my code is slow and bad.
2016-07-22T13:43:23Z rumbler31: i read enough of the pcl chapter on binary files once back when I was first starting in lisp, and its given me enough rope that i've now hung myself.  I didn't really understand what it was talking about in the later part of the chapter, so it turns out i've reimplemented the work and i'm missing stuff that would be convenient, and while I have no idea what constitutes fast code
2016-07-22T13:43:56Z dlowe: that last depends on your project
2016-07-22T13:44:09Z dlowe: there's no "fast," only "fast enough"
2016-07-22T13:44:20Z dlowe: there is, however, a such thing as "slow"
2016-07-22T13:44:57Z dlowe: but that's determined more by data structures than things like which accessor method do I use
2016-07-22T13:46:53Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321052
2016-07-22T13:47:36Z dlowe: 89.19% of which was spent in GC. - that's a lot of consing
2016-07-22T13:48:11Z dlowe: if you're dealing with that much data, you should increase sbcl's heap size
2016-07-22T13:48:19Z dlowe: that will increase your speed by quite a bit, I think
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2016-07-22T13:49:00Z mrottenkolber: note that consing in itself is very fast, but 90% really is a lot. short lived obects are cheap, long lived on the other hand...
2016-07-22T13:49:28Z mrottenkolber: rumbler31: subseq copies the whole sequence, try using a displaced vector
2016-07-22T13:49:51Z rumbler31: while there isn't enough context here to characterize performance, the input file is about 700 meg, and I have defined two rather large binary types that get composed from the input stream where the rest's data fields are simply recorded into a sequence
2016-07-22T13:50:31Z mrottenkolber: rumbler31: http://mr.gy/ansi-common-lisp/make_002darray.html <- see DISPLACED-TO argument
2016-07-22T13:50:34Z dlowe: rumbler31: run this (sb-ext:dynamic-space-size)
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2016-07-22T13:51:27Z rumbler31: yes i'm about to annotate the paste with the function that did the work.  the methods for the most general types that I do not bother converting to objects simply get stored, so its either a call to make a new sequence of the subject data, or in half the types, create an object from the data.  so all the objects i've made will be long lived, if I understand what is going on
2016-07-22T13:51:37Z dlowe: on my system, that's just 1G
2016-07-22T13:51:54Z dlowe: by default
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2016-07-22T13:52:43Z dlowe: sbcl  --dynamic-space-size 8192 will give it 8G
2016-07-22T13:54:21Z rumbler31: i'm on ccl, and I have to go soon but I'll be back and investigate your suggestions.
2016-07-22T13:54:21Z rumbler31: mrottenkolber: if I understand this correctly, I think I would need to copy the seq, since I need to store the data that I read.
2016-07-22T13:55:08Z rumbler31: theoretically i would make a whole class out of the type, right now I store the header of the field and the data in a list, then store those lists
2016-07-22T13:55:17Z rumbler31: is this stupid?
2016-07-22T13:56:28Z dlowe: depends on your access patterns
2016-07-22T13:56:29Z rumbler31: i meant to annotate the original, but this is the function I ran
2016-07-22T13:56:30Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321053
2016-07-22T13:56:31Z mrottenkolber: ccl is a good choice! :-)
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2016-07-22T13:57:01Z rumbler31: right now I
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2016-07-22T13:57:57Z dlowe: rumbler31: you don't need the if payload
2016-07-22T13:58:06Z dlowe: the loop terminates if there's no payload
2016-07-22T13:58:17Z dlowe: er, if container
2016-07-22T13:58:26Z dlowe: I'll comment privately, actually
2016-07-22T13:58:34Z rumbler31: I'm trying to figure out whether I need to write enough machinery to re-emit the data i read.  as in do I need to go all the way and store the entire file, then massage it in some way so I can emit it back out to disk, or do I just need to write enough code to make analyzing the data convenient, with little regard made to keeping a "digested" file consistent for later writing
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2016-07-22T13:59:59Z rumbler31: that was vestigial, but I see how I can make it look less silly
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2016-07-22T14:47:00Z phoe: Hey hi.
2016-07-22T14:47:16Z phoe: Where should one begin if one wants to implement Unix sockets in USOCKET?
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2016-07-22T14:52:08Z dlowe: you want to know how to use usocket?
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2016-07-22T14:52:29Z dlowe: or you want to add support to usocket?
2016-07-22T14:52:39Z dlowe: for AF_UNIX
2016-07-22T14:52:40Z phoe: I want to add Unix socket support to USOCKET.
2016-07-22T14:52:44Z phoe: For AF_UNIX.
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2016-07-22T14:56:17Z dlowe: Seems to me that it could already support unix sockets.
2016-07-22T14:56:27Z dlowe: don't you just pass in a different address family
2016-07-22T14:57:08Z phoe: Address family?
2016-07-22T14:57:27Z jdz: AF in AF_UNIX stands for Address Family
2016-07-22T14:57:45Z phoe: Oh! I didn't know that.
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2016-07-22T14:58:42Z dlowe: I mean, I guess I would try to make it work in whatever native lisp I was using
2016-07-22T14:58:50Z dlowe: then see if I could fit it into usocket
2016-07-22T14:59:29Z dlowe: it looks like it may be assuming an internet address everywhere
2016-07-22T14:59:38Z phoe: I think it is.
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2016-07-22T15:08:16Z hjudt: aqq
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2016-07-22T15:09:33Z phoe: aqq?
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2016-07-22T15:12:50Z phoe: I think I'll pass for now; I need to read up more on sockets in general.
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2016-07-22T16:32:27Z Fade: phoe: iolib supports unix domain sockets ootb.
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2016-07-22T16:49:13Z phoe: Fade: iolib is huge and and has C dependencies.
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2016-07-22T16:51:33Z akkad: and requires fixlibposix.
2016-07-22T16:51:53Z phoe: which is the C dependency I was talking bout.
2016-07-22T16:51:54Z phoe: about.
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2016-07-22T16:57:17Z Fade: 'huge' ?
2016-07-22T16:57:33Z Fade: it's 2016. nothing under 500G is huge. ;)
2016-07-22T16:57:34Z phoe: contains lots of stuff that is not sockets, where we need specifically sockets.
2016-07-22T16:58:01Z Fade: I've had very good experiences with iolib.
2016-07-22T16:58:06Z phoe: Fade: you forgot about the yo-momma-class jokes.
2016-07-22T16:58:06Z Fade: it's solid as a brick on the ground.
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2016-07-22T16:58:21Z phoe: Fade: yes, but the C dependency is a sore spot.
2016-07-22T16:58:39Z phoe: especially if we want this to be portable CL.
2016-07-22T16:58:53Z phoe: as in, as portable as possible.
2016-07-22T16:59:03Z Fade: it works on linux and bsd
2016-07-22T16:59:06Z Fade: it might work on windows.
2016-07-22T16:59:08Z Fade: dunno.
2016-07-22T16:59:15Z dlowe: the C dependency is what makes it solid, I think
2016-07-22T16:59:23Z Fade: if you're phobic about the cffi bindings, then I guess that's that.
2016-07-22T16:59:24Z dlowe: it does what it says on the label
2016-07-22T16:59:26Z akkad: it just does too much (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0) (debug 0)) for my tastes
2016-07-22T16:59:30Z phoe: Yes, but again - we don't want people who want to use McCLIM to *have to* install GCC and Autotools and GCC on the same machine.
2016-07-22T16:59:39Z phoe: uh, double GCC
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2016-07-22T16:59:55Z jdz: just to be sure
2016-07-22T17:00:28Z Fade: the only system that doesn't ship gcc by default is windows.
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2016-07-22T17:00:41Z Fade: oh, has osx totally switched to clang?
2016-07-22T17:01:00Z phoe: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/blob/master/backend/sbcl.lisp#L181
2016-07-22T17:01:01Z phoe: wat
2016-07-22T17:01:04Z Fade: anyhow, if you're shipping client software, ship the client binaries.
2016-07-22T17:02:33Z Fade: they're delicate users, and you don't want to scare them by installing a lisp compiler. ;)
2016-07-22T17:03:22Z phoe: Fade: you know that you can't ship a Lisp binary *without* installing a Lisp compiler?
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2016-07-22T17:04:29Z Fade: phoe: uh, of course you can.
2016-07-22T17:04:38Z TMA: phoe: I have read you can evict the compiler from the final binary at least in some of the implementations (LispWorks)
2016-07-22T17:04:43Z pjb: Fade: yes, Apple only provides clang.  /usr/bin/gcc is still clang in disguise.
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2016-07-22T17:04:56Z Fade: *nod*
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2016-07-22T17:04:57Z pjb: Fade: you can install a gcc with MacPorts or brew.
2016-07-22T17:05:08Z phoe: TMA: welp, I didn't know that.
2016-07-22T17:05:38Z Fade: oh, that's what you meant. I was talking about a separate step. an external lisp.
2016-07-22T17:06:04Z Fade: having the compiler there is useful in things like network servers.
2016-07-22T17:06:08Z phoe: an "internal" lisp, as you mean it, still carries a compiler in many cases.
2016-07-22T17:06:15Z Fade: you can connect to them and patch them without bringing down the service.
2016-07-22T17:06:19Z phoe: ^
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2016-07-22T17:06:49Z phoe: You basically have the language available all the time, which is, well, the way of Lisp.
2016-07-22T17:07:04Z akkad: except on android where they strip a lot of it
2016-07-22T17:07:12Z Fade genuflects to the beneficient celestial electron
2016-07-22T17:07:15Z phoe: I don't know the Android Lisp build process.
2016-07-22T17:07:39Z Fade: anyhow that compiler comes 'for free' when they install your app.
2016-07-22T17:07:59Z Fade: unless, of course, you're running allegro or lispworks, in which case, it comes at some cost.
2016-07-22T17:08:39Z akkad: they are free if you know how to ask them nicely
2016-07-22T17:09:50Z Fade: :D
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2016-07-22T18:01:24Z phoe: I have a question.
2016-07-22T18:01:37Z phoe: I have LOCAL-TIME:TIMESTAMP class that has a defined PRINT-OBJECT method.
2016-07-22T18:01:56Z phoe: I make a DATE class that has LOCAL-TIME:TIMESTAMP as one of its superclasses.
2016-07-22T18:02:32Z phoe: How can I "copy" the PRINT-OBJECT method from LOCAL-TIME:TIMESTAMP to DATE?
2016-07-22T18:02:43Z phoe: Like - I want DATE to print the same as LOCAL-TIME:TIMESTAMP.
2016-07-22T18:02:59Z Bike: if date is a subclass of timestamp, print-object should already use the method for timestamp on objects of class date.
2016-07-22T18:03:11Z phoe: Oh?
2016-07-22T18:03:13Z phoe: Let me check.
2016-07-22T18:03:20Z Bike: i mean... that's how method dispatch works.
2016-07-22T18:03:29Z Grue``: yeah, this is basic inheritance... unless "one of its superclasses" is something different
2016-07-22T18:04:04Z phoe: ...
2016-07-22T18:04:09Z phoe: what is this magic
2016-07-22T18:04:22Z phoe: I expected that it would print in the #<> notation
2016-07-22T18:04:26Z Bike: it's how CLOS works?
2016-07-22T18:04:29Z phoe: oh wait
2016-07-22T18:04:30Z phoe: it's a method
2016-07-22T18:04:35Z Bike: it's like, the most basic aspect of how CLOS works
2016-07-22T18:04:53Z phoe: so PRINT-OBJECT TIMESTAMP is above PRINT-OBJECT T in method precedence
2016-07-22T18:04:57Z phoe: I just realized
2016-07-22T18:05:52Z phoe: like "hey, it's a method, and it has print-unreadable-object as its least specialized method, so method precedence comes into effect"
2016-07-22T18:06:42Z phoe: and I was like wtf magic
2016-07-22T18:09:20Z PuercoPop: phoe: you could use the compute-effective-method to get a 'function' that would be the result of applying the object to another generic function
2016-07-22T18:10:24Z PuercoPop: (ignore that, I misread the question)
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2016-07-22T18:25:48Z H4ns: phoe: what do you want to say by "wat" in your usocket issue?  did you have a problem description, too?
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2016-07-22T18:29:05Z phoe: H4ns: Why the "#-ecl #-ecl #-ecl"?
2016-07-22T18:29:21Z phoe: What's the difference between "#-ecl #-ecl #-ecl" and "#-ecl"?
2016-07-22T18:30:00Z H4ns: #-ecl "comments out" one form if :ecl is on *features*, #-ecl #-ecl "comments out" two forms.
2016-07-22T18:30:19Z phoe: So it stacks?
2016-07-22T18:30:29Z H4ns: phoe: yes.  it is obvious when you know common lisp :D
2016-07-22T18:30:47Z phoe: "#-feature #-feature 'a 'b" is therefore equivalent to "#-feature 'a #-feature 'b"?
2016-07-22T18:30:54Z H4ns: correct.
2016-07-22T18:31:03Z H4ns: you could submit a pr with a change that does that.
2016-07-22T18:31:05Z phoe: That's absolutely not obvious and I consider it confusing.
2016-07-22T18:31:25Z H4ns: you can submit a pr, which should have "improve style" in the title.
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2016-07-22T18:31:35Z phoe: When you see a (defun ......) you might not see that a few tens of lines above someone made a repeated #- macro.
2016-07-22T18:31:47Z H4ns: but again, just because you don't find it obvious does not mean that it is not obvious.
2016-07-22T18:32:15Z H4ns: phoe: it is a matter of opinion, really.
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2016-07-22T18:32:51Z phoe: H4ns: could you link the part of the standard which says this?
2016-07-22T18:32:55Z phoe: I'm really curious now.
2016-07-22T18:33:02Z Bike: i've been doing this for a while and that's pretty surprising... i would have thought the first #- would start a read of the rest, and that that read would then do a normal #- foo read
2016-07-22T18:33:05Z H4ns: phoe: no.  read up on reader conditionals.
2016-07-22T18:33:14Z Bike: clhs #+
2016-07-22T18:33:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
2016-07-22T18:33:45Z H4ns: i'm not against changing the code, but "wat" is not a sufficient description and if someone does not like the style, they should at least include a pr that improves it.
2016-07-22T18:33:50Z phoe: H4ns: I am, and I find no information on #+ and #- stacking with each other.
2016-07-22T18:34:01Z H4ns: phoe: you need to read more then.
2016-07-22T18:34:42Z Bike: could you give a pointer?
2016-07-22T18:34:57Z H4ns: i don't have one, because i have bad memory.
2016-07-22T18:35:28Z H4ns: there used to be people here who could point to every single point in the spec, given a question like this.  i was never among them.
2016-07-22T18:35:48Z Bike: i mean. the syntax is #-test expression. i would think, from the description, that in #-ecl #-ecl foo, you have #-ecl (#-ecl (foo)), so to speak. but this is evidently not the case.
2016-07-22T18:36:36Z Bike: oh, no, i think i get it
2016-07-22T18:37:25Z Bike: you have #-ecl #-ecl foo bar, so it reads #-ecl and decides to skip the next form. so it reads the next form from "#-ecl foo bar". reading that, it sees #-ecl and skips the next form, which is foo. then it reads bar, and skips that from the outer #-ecl.
2016-07-22T18:37:32Z Bike: so that makes sense. i'd hardly call it obvious though.
2016-07-22T18:37:34Z rme: There's a ccl ticket about this.  http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1112
2016-07-22T18:37:46Z rme: (I think it's about this)
2016-07-22T18:39:10Z phoe: H4ns: perhaps I have to read more, but I have read the standard and I find nothing about #+ #- nesting with each other, therefore I consider your statement about it being obvious as a foundationless one.
2016-07-22T18:39:20Z phoe: Clearly not obvious enough to be mentioned in the standard.
2016-07-22T18:39:39Z H4ns: *shrug*
2016-07-22T18:39:39Z phoe: I actually had to follow a similar process as Bike in order to get what's going on.
2016-07-22T18:40:00Z phoe: Perhaps you have to read less.
2016-07-22T18:40:01Z H4ns: as i wrote, submit a pr that improves the style.  i'd merge it.
2016-07-22T18:40:10Z phoe: Sure thing.
2016-07-22T18:40:15Z H4ns: perhaps you have to... well anyway.
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2016-07-22T19:36:36Z Polyphony: Is there an easy way to take two lists, '(a b c) and '(d e f) and associate their members, or "merge" them into '((a .d) (b . e) (c . f))
2016-07-22T19:37:38Z Polyphony: I've been fiddling with loop but it's just not coming along as quickly as I'd imagined (due to my own common-lisp incompetence)
2016-07-22T19:37:39Z TMA: Polyphony: (mapcar #'cons '(a b c) '(d e f))
2016-07-22T19:37:48Z Polyphony: :|
2016-07-22T19:37:53Z Polyphony: thanks TMA
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2016-07-22T19:40:05Z Polyphony: I felt like there was an easier way that I wasn't seeing...
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2016-07-22T19:48:04Z Bike: loop would be (loop for e1 in l1 for e2 in l2 collect (cons e1 e2))
2016-07-22T19:48:18Z rumbler31: this is going to sound a little funny, but what exactly is the nature of garbage.  loosely, if I have a function that reads sequences of varying lengths from a file and collects them all and returns the collection, have I created garbage?
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2016-07-22T19:48:59Z rumbler31: the consing i've done is a necessary part of making all the lists, so in that case I don't know how to avoid it,
2016-07-22T19:48:59Z TMA: rumbler31: garbage is a piece of data, that is no longer accessible
2016-07-22T19:49:05Z Bike: basically there are certain "roots" that are never collected - stuff like global package definitions, and the current control stack - and anything that you can't reach somehow by traversing from a root is garbage.
2016-07-22T19:49:50Z rumbler31: so then spending a lot of time in garbage collection means i'm making things that i'm instantly discarding, for example
2016-07-22T19:49:59Z Bike: possible.
2016-07-22T19:50:39Z Bike: if there are conses that don't end up in the returned collection, they're probably garbage.
2016-07-22T19:50:47Z rumbler31: hmm
2016-07-22T19:52:02Z rumbler31: ok
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2016-07-22T19:52:59Z TMA: rumbler31: by "reads sequences of varying lengths from a file and collects them all" do you mean that you get say (a b c) (c d) (e) and then collect them into ((a b c) (c d) (e)) or into (a b c c d e)?
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2016-07-22T19:55:02Z rumbler31: the former, and more specifically at this point, ((a b) (c d) (e f))  where a c e are all the same kind of object and b d e may be objects or just the sequences
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2016-07-22T19:58:36Z TMA: rumbler31: that shall not generate lot of garbage in itself
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2016-07-22T19:59:15Z rpg: Does anyone know about the relationship between portable allegroServe and the AllegroServe that Franz makes available on github? Does paserve pull over content from aserve? Or have they diverged forever?
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2016-07-22T20:01:29Z TMA: rumbler31: try measuring progressively smaller pieces of your code to find where the most garbage comes from
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2016-07-22T20:14:37Z rumbler31: are there other ways of measuring this than just (time... ?
2016-07-22T20:15:11Z phoe: rumbler31: implementation-specific tools.
2016-07-22T20:16:17Z Bike: usually a "profiler"
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2016-07-22T20:42:28Z H4ns: rpg: back then, portable allegroserve was the open source version of aserve + acl-compat
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2016-07-22T20:43:14Z H4ns: rpg: it might be possible to take franz' github version and extend acl-compat to support everything that they now use.  the question is "why?"
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2016-07-22T20:43:32Z rpg: Now it looks like people are making mods to both paserve and aserve.  I didn't see any obvious sign that paserve was pulling in changes from aserve, but Sourceforge is so impossible to navigate now that I might have missed something
2016-07-22T20:44:05Z H4ns: rpg: i'm not sure, but i would not be surprised if paserve is currently not maintained.
2016-07-22T20:44:14Z Bike: the cliki page on paserve mentions that tracking aserve would be nice to do in the future
2016-07-22T20:44:24Z rpg: If Franz finds and fixes bugs, it would be a shame if they don't get pulled back into paserve
2016-07-22T20:44:46Z dfigrish: rpg: why just not use Hunchentoot?
2016-07-22T20:44:52Z H4ns: rpg: it would be a shame if someone used paserve, true
2016-07-22T20:45:10Z H4ns: rpg: but then, why use paserve in the first place?
2016-07-22T20:45:23Z rpg: TBH, for inexpensive deliveries I would like paserve -- there are several places where Franz does things in a very nicely lispy way where the alternatives are unpleasantly C-like (e.g., sockets)
2016-07-22T20:45:51Z rpg: H4ns: I like Allegro. My customers don't like the license tax on executables
2016-07-22T20:46:12Z rpg: dfigrish: Conversely, why use Hunchentoot?
2016-07-22T20:46:31Z rpg: What's great about Hunchentoot that I should change?
2016-07-22T20:46:44Z dfigrish: rpg: at least because it's maintained
2016-07-22T20:46:53Z rpg: dfigrish: aserve is maintained
2016-07-22T20:47:28Z H4ns: rpg: i switched to hunchentoot because every time i had the need to modify aserve, i could not stand it.  now, not that hunchentoot is a beauty, but aserve is much less of that.
2016-07-22T20:47:36Z rpg: I'm not saying hunchentoot is bad, but I'm not excited about switching to something that might even leave me with worse features.
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2016-07-22T20:48:11Z H4ns: rpg: so there, you should become the paserve maintainer and merge aserve patches.
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2016-07-22T20:48:35Z rpg: H4ns: OK -- you take ASDF and I'll take paserve! ;-)
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2016-07-22T20:49:17Z dfigrish: rpg: I mean the free version of aserve
2016-07-22T20:49:27Z rpg: H4ns: I'd be interested to hear what you needed to fix in AllegroServe.  It's always just pretty much worked for me.
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2016-07-22T20:49:34Z H4ns: rpg: i think this is an interest driven thing, and i'm not interested in asdf :)
2016-07-22T20:49:55Z H4ns: rpg: it has been like 10 years ago, so i can't remember.  i can remember if*, however
2016-07-22T20:50:14Z H4ns: and the "common lisp style guide" that john foderaro has written.
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2016-07-22T20:51:45Z rpg: I actually kind of like IF* -- I really hate the "Oh, crap, now I have to go back and put in PROGN" thing with IF.  Or, worse, "oh, crap, now I have to go back and transform my IF into a COND."
2016-07-22T20:52:03Z rpg: I should figure out how to make SLIME automate that refactoring.....
2016-07-22T20:52:09Z H4ns: conditionals are a smell in itself
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2016-07-22T20:52:54Z H4ns: but anyway, it is rare nowadays to even hear someone talking about paserve.  might be that this is just not the right place to ask, maybe try pro@ whether there are any other users?
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2016-07-22T20:53:12Z rpg: pro@?
2016-07-22T20:53:16Z dlowe: My experience is that nearly every IF eventually turns into a COND.
2016-07-22T20:53:26Z H4ns: rpg: the pro@common-lisp.net mailing list
2016-07-22T20:53:37Z rpg: dlowe: Except for the IFs that should have been WHENs or UNLESSes!
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2016-07-22T20:53:45Z dlowe: rpg: T
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2016-07-22T20:53:55Z PuercoPop: rpg: there is a elisp package for that, redshank. (Haven't used it though)
2016-07-22T20:54:00Z rpg: H4ns: thanks.  I didn't know about that mailing list.
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2016-07-22T20:54:10Z dlowe: PuercoPop: that's true for all X
2016-07-22T20:54:21Z dlowe: the question is which elisp package
2016-07-22T20:54:32Z rpg: PuercoPop: I looked at redshank about a decade ago, when I was using ELI more than SLIME.  I'll have another look. Thanks for the suggestion
2016-07-22T20:54:35Z PuercoPop: dlowe: lol, but I meant to transform if into conds
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2016-07-22T21:18:14Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321083 <- I need some insight on refactoring this.
2016-07-22T21:18:35Z phoe: STANDARD-DATE is a subclass of LOCAL-TIME:TIMESTAMP.
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2016-07-22T21:19:31Z phoe: I mean - if it's refactorable much.
2016-07-22T21:22:45Z xaotuk: phoe: why do you append date values then descructure-bind them?
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2016-07-22T21:24:28Z xaotuk: phoe: subseq of reversed list is just one of ideas, perhaps there is something better too
2016-07-22T21:24:40Z Bike: indeed, i would just do two multiple value binds
2016-07-22T21:24:50Z phoe: xaotuk: I did two MVBs.
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2016-07-22T21:25:02Z phoe: But they looked pretty ugly to me.
2016-07-22T21:25:29Z xaotuk: phoe: too many not needed bindings, yes
2016-07-22T21:25:36Z Bike: the units variable seems pretty useless; (check-type unit (member :nanosecond etc))
2016-07-22T21:25:57Z phoe: Oh, can I do MEMBER in CHECK-TYPE? Cool!
2016-07-22T21:26:11Z Baggers: evening all. I have a lisp binary created via save-and-die. I have some '.so' files that need to be loaded on startup in a folder called lib in the same directory as the binary. Im unsure how to get the path relative to the binary so I can tell cffi where to look. I need to be able to do this on Linux, Windows & OSX. Does anyone know a way of getting that path?
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2016-07-22T21:26:37Z Bike: phoe: check-type works with any time, and member types exist
2016-07-22T21:27:03Z Bike: with any type
2016-07-22T21:27:05Z phoe: Baggers: Linux should be able to deal with it through LD_PRELOAD envvariable I think.
2016-07-22T21:27:09Z rpg: phoe: MEMBER is a type constructor....
2016-07-22T21:27:17Z Bike: try to avoid using ld_preload, though
2016-07-22T21:27:26Z phoe: rpg: yes, another thing had to click in my mind though. Thanks.
2016-07-22T21:28:45Z rpg: phoe: couldn't you use the keyword to index into the two values-lists and do the comparison there?
2016-07-22T21:29:10Z rpg: Then you would just be operating on two lists. Introducing the individual variable names seems unnecessary
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2016-07-22T21:29:51Z Bike: or des-bind/mvb with a &rest
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2016-07-22T21:30:12Z Bike: cuts out that ridiculous ignore, anyway
2016-07-22T21:30:13Z rpg: I don't think the bind needs doing at all.  If you write a loop and just terminate when you get to the right index.j
2016-07-22T21:30:36Z Bike: you're right
2016-07-22T21:30:54Z rpg: I.e. translate the UNIT argument into an index, and loop From I until = I UNIT-INDEX
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2016-07-22T21:32:42Z Bike: (loop for d1 in (m-v-l ...) for d2 in (m-v-l ...) for u in '(:year ...) unless (= d1 d2) do (return nil) when (eq unit u) do (return t))
2016-07-22T21:32:45Z Bike: maybe?
2016-07-22T21:33:29Z rpg: Bike, that's what I was thinking, too.
2016-07-22T21:33:44Z Bike: or "repeat (unit-to-index unit)" like you said
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2016-07-22T21:33:52Z rpg: I think RETURN is also a LOOP keyword, but I wouldn't swear to it. So it might be just UNLESS (= d1 d2) RETURN NIL
2016-07-22T21:33:58Z Bike: i think that's how repeat works, anyway
2016-07-22T21:34:03Z rpg just uses ITERATE now
2016-07-22T21:34:15Z Bike: it's probably pretty easy in iterate too
2016-07-22T21:34:28Z rpg: Bike: the conditional is just less weird in ITERATE
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2016-07-22T21:35:37Z Bike: it's true, loop conditionals are not my favorite eithe
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2016-07-22T21:40:11Z rpg: Bike: Loop conditionals + multiple values ===> me switching to ITERATE
2016-07-22T21:40:20Z Bike: lol fair
2016-07-22T21:40:28Z rpg: oh, yeah, plus the auto-indenting!
2016-07-22T21:41:16Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321083#1
2016-07-22T21:41:23Z phoe: Much better! Thanks.
2016-07-22T21:41:57Z Bike: if you keep the check-type it will be actually impossible to reach the error
2016-07-22T21:42:42Z rpg: phoe: If you want you could even handle the UNIT in GET-DATE, where you are already truncating the return lists.  You could just truncate away anything you don't care about
2016-07-22T21:42:47Z phoe: Bike: yes, thanks!
2016-07-22T21:43:22Z phoe: rpg: what do you mean? I don't get it just yet.
2016-07-22T21:43:27Z rpg: Then it's just (every #'= (get-date date-1) (get-date date-2))
2016-07-22T21:43:59Z phoe: This sounds even cooler.
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2016-07-22T21:44:05Z Bike: phoe: as in, truncate to the relevant index in get-date
2016-07-22T21:44:05Z phoe: But I need to think on how to truncate this.
2016-07-22T21:44:09Z rpg: phoe: You are doing NTHCDR on the return value of decode-timestamp.  Why not use the UNIT to pick the N for NTHCDR?
2016-07-22T21:45:05Z rpg: (nthcdr (+ 4 (position UNIT UNIT-LIST))) -- or something like that
2016-07-22T21:48:28Z xaotuk: phoe: there is a macro local-time:with-decoded-timestamp where you can isolate elements you want
2016-07-22T21:50:00Z xaotuk: For example if you need just hour an min: (local-time:with-decoded-timestamp (:hour h :minute m) (local-time:now) ...)
2016-07-22T21:51:29Z xaotuk: h and m have bound values to hour and minute...
2016-07-22T21:52:18Z Bike: that seems kind of complex to use based on a runtime specification of fineness
2016-07-22T21:53:02Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321083#2
2016-07-22T21:53:17Z Bike: that... backquote doesn't work
2016-07-22T21:53:29Z phoe: ...
2016-07-22T21:53:30Z phoe: welp
2016-07-22T21:53:34Z phoe: I'm not in a macro
2016-07-22T21:53:51Z Bike: it's not that, it's just that backquote forms return, you know, a form. they don't evaluate it
2016-07-22T21:53:51Z phoe: wait a second
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2016-07-22T21:54:31Z phoe: right, it doesn't work.
2016-07-22T21:55:34Z phoe: What would be the easy way of avoiding duplicating that list of keywords?
2016-07-22T21:55:48Z phoe: Oh wait.
2016-07-22T21:56:01Z Bike: i suppose i would make it a constant, but that's sort of a pain
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2016-07-22T21:56:14Z phoe: check-type is a macro.
2016-07-22T21:56:17Z phoe: I can't `, inside it.
2016-07-22T21:56:43Z Bike: i think you have disordered ideas about macros, but the point is you can't provide a run-time spec, yeah.
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2016-07-22T21:56:59Z Bike: honestly i'd probably suck it up and write it twice. the compiler will coalesce it
2016-07-22T21:58:09Z phoe: well, this function is already 30% of what it was before.
2016-07-22T21:58:14Z rpg: phoe: I still don't see why you need to do *both* subseq *and* NTHCDR. Instead of (NTHCDR (+4 (position unit unit-list)) (nreverse ...)))
2016-07-22T21:58:44Z rpg: Oh, you'd have to reverse the UNIT-LIST....
2016-07-22T21:59:49Z phoe: rpg: because it doesn't work.
2016-07-22T21:59:55Z phoe: I need a NREVERSE either way.
2016-07-22T22:00:09Z rpg: I don't know what you mean it doesn't work.
2016-07-22T22:00:11Z phoe: I need a slice from the middle.
2016-07-22T22:00:17Z phoe: The function returns wrong values.
2016-07-22T22:00:26Z Bike: mm, but the actual order doesn't matter if you've sliced out only the ones you need
2016-07-22T22:00:30Z rpg: You are dropping some suffix.  Just drop more.
2016-07-22T22:00:49Z phoe: rpg: The actual list is '(ns ss mm hh day month year day-of-week daylight-saving-time-p timezone-offset timezone-abbreviation)
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2016-07-22T22:00:59Z phoe: I need to drop the four last ones, plus some from the beginning.
2016-07-22T22:01:04Z rpg: oh, I see.
2016-07-22T22:01:12Z phoe: So, a slice from the middle.
2016-07-22T22:01:19Z phoe: I agree that the order doesn't matter if I call EVERY.
2016-07-22T22:01:20Z rpg: phoe: Yes, you can do that.
2016-07-22T22:01:21Z Bike: which you can do with subseq
2016-07-22T22:01:24Z phoe: But I need to cut from both sides.
2016-07-22T22:01:25Z phoe: Bike: !
2016-07-22T22:01:33Z Bike: i mean you know you're providing two indices, right?
2016-07-22T22:01:37Z Bike: a beginning and an end
2016-07-22T22:01:53Z phoe: Yes, I am.
2016-07-22T22:02:03Z phoe: I'd need to calculate both. Gimme a second.
2016-07-22T22:02:09Z Bike: maybe just add four to both?
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2016-07-22T22:03:33Z rpg: (subseq date (position unit units) (- (length seq) 4)) -- but there could be an off-by-one error in there!
2016-07-22T22:03:35Z phoe: yer a wizard.
2016-07-22T22:03:58Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321083#3
2016-07-22T22:04:08Z phoe: rpg: there is an off-by-one error.
2016-07-22T22:05:05Z Bike: tragically beautiful
2016-07-22T22:05:54Z rpg: phoe: I always have to check the way the end index is computed! inclusive? exclusive? I just have a mental block about this
2016-07-22T22:05:55Z xaotuk: phoe: now looks nice :)
2016-07-22T22:06:06Z Bike: now you just need to kill the nreverse
2016-07-22T22:06:08Z phoe: rpg: I think I'll stay with this one. I can only trade a NREVERSE call for a LET-binding of SEQ plus a LENGTH call.
2016-07-22T22:06:16Z phoe: Bike: ^
2016-07-22T22:06:24Z phoe: rpg: I'm the same about this
2016-07-22T22:06:53Z phoe: they're all always either exclusive or inclusive, depending on the side you look at it from
2016-07-22T22:07:08Z rpg: phoe: Yes, that seems reasonable. I'd add a comment or two, though!!! Six months from now that is just going to be WTF to you ;-)
2016-07-22T22:07:25Z phoe: Bike: I won't kill the NREVERSE because then I'll need a LET and a LENGTH.
2016-07-22T22:07:34Z phoe: rpg: it's already wtf enough right now
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2016-07-22T22:07:53Z Bike: (subseq (m-v-l ...) (position unit '(:nanosecond ...)) 7)?
2016-07-22T22:08:05Z Bike: 7 being where day-of-week is
2016-07-22T22:08:28Z Bike: and it might be off by one because durr
2016-07-22T22:08:29Z xaotuk: phoe: I find it readable now
2016-07-22T22:08:31Z rpg: I kinda think permitting negative end indices would be a nice addition to subseq
2016-07-22T22:08:50Z Bike: or at least "length of subsequence" rather than "end"
2016-07-22T22:08:58Z Bike: not that that would help here
2016-07-22T22:09:28Z rpg: (subseq date (position....) -4) would be really nice.
2016-07-22T22:09:40Z Bike: yeah
2016-07-22T22:09:46Z phoe: rpg: what would it do?
2016-07-22T22:09:52Z Bike: cut out the last four elements
2016-07-22T22:09:55Z phoe: oh!
2016-07-22T22:09:56Z phoe: I see.
2016-07-22T22:09:59Z rpg: phoe: It would be interpreted as (- length 4)
2016-07-22T22:10:04Z Bike: since the length of the values-list is fixed, it's not that important here, but a bit more readable
2016-07-22T22:10:35Z rpg: Seems like dropping a relative number of elements would be a common enough thing to want to do.
2016-07-22T22:10:45Z Bike: well, sure. that's why it's in python
2016-07-22T22:11:00Z rpg feels morally certain this is in perl
2016-07-22T22:11:22Z phoe: rpg: it looks like NTHCDR's job, actually
2016-07-22T22:11:31Z Bike: nthcdr cuts from the front
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2016-07-22T22:11:41Z Bike: this would be more like butlast
2016-07-22T22:11:42Z phoe: (nthcdr (- length 4) list)
2016-07-22T22:11:45Z Bike: except sequence-general
2016-07-22T22:11:51Z phoe: oh right
2016-07-22T22:11:52Z phoe: butlast
2016-07-22T22:11:52Z Bike: nnnnno, that takes the last four elements
2016-07-22T22:12:09Z phoe: you want the *reverse* of this
2016-07-22T22:12:48Z Bike: anyway, the thing i said seems to work locally
2016-07-22T22:13:06Z Bike: i even got the 7 right! how amazing is that.
2016-07-22T22:13:29Z rpg: If I made a version of SUBSEQ like this, I would never need to remember how that end argument works again! ;-)
2016-07-22T22:15:17Z Bike: (defun slice (seq start &optional (relative-end 0)) (subseq seq start (- (length seq) relative-end))) patent pending
2016-07-22T22:15:58Z rpg: Bike: ALEXANDRIA fame beckons!
2016-07-22T22:16:27Z rpg: except I like the generic version that uses positive integers as the index and negative integers as offsets....
2016-07-22T22:19:25Z Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/+6VQZ/4 i missed a colon but you get the idea
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2016-07-22T22:22:45Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321086 <- what do you guys think?
2016-07-22T22:22:55Z phoe: It's the whole implementation of what I want my DATE to do.
2016-07-22T22:23:18Z rpg: Bike: very elegant!
2016-07-22T22:23:29Z Bike: 7 is, after all, a holy number
2016-07-22T22:24:18Z Bike: change-class. whoa-ho
2016-07-22T22:25:26Z phoe: welp
2016-07-22T22:25:53Z phoe: since STANDARD-DATE is a mixin-wrapper around LOCAL-TIME:TIMESTAMP, I allowed myself to do that
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2016-07-22T22:26:07Z Bike: yeah, it makes sense since parse-timestring isn't flexible enough
2016-07-22T22:26:16Z phoe: and also because I don't want to rewrite chunks of LOCAL-TIME just to return objects of my type
2016-07-22T22:26:40Z Bike: but, well.... why is this a class, i have to ask
2016-07-22T22:26:56Z Bike: i mean, your date-etc seem to be yours. can you not just define them on timestamps?
2016-07-22T22:27:33Z phoe: I might - but I have a protocol defined on DATE as a protocol class.
2016-07-22T22:27:49Z Bike: hrm.
2016-07-22T22:28:26Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321086#1 <-
2016-07-22T22:28:43Z phoe: So I want my objects be of class DATE.
2016-07-22T22:28:56Z phoe: I mean, uhushd.
2016-07-22T22:29:01Z phoe: Have a superclass of DATE.
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2016-07-22T22:29:37Z phoe: So I have two superclasses there, DATE that allows my STANDARD-DATE to participate in the protocol and LOCAL-TIME:TIMESTAMP that provides the implementation.
2016-07-22T22:31:19Z phoe: Which allows me to separate the protocol (abstraction) from actual implementation. If I declared everything on TIMESTAMPs, that would strip that abstraction layer.
2016-07-22T22:31:54Z phoe: Also, welp, I totally forgot about the :TIMESTAMP argument.
2016-07-22T22:33:36Z phoe: Which is unnecessary, by the way, since I have PARSE-DATE.
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2016-07-22T22:59:59Z rumbler31: well, a switch from 'unsigned-byte arrays to '(unsigned-byte 8) arrays yielded a 10x speedup
2016-07-22T23:00:26Z phoe: rumbler31: sounds like something one could expect
2016-07-22T23:00:37Z phoe: ...wait a second
2016-07-22T23:00:39Z rumbler31: except me prior to now
2016-07-22T23:00:47Z Bike: unsigned-byte is just nonnegative integers
2016-07-22T23:00:48Z phoe: sounds like something one could actually *not* expect
2016-07-22T23:01:05Z phoe: Bike: so an unsigned-byte can be any length in Lisp?
2016-07-22T23:01:07Z phoe: clhs unsigned-byte
2016-07-22T23:01:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_unsgn_.htm
2016-07-22T23:01:10Z Bike: you betcha
2016-07-22T23:01:15Z phoe: ...
2016-07-22T23:01:20Z Bike: byte lenghts aren't fixed, that's why you need the 8
2016-07-22T23:01:31Z phoe: Common Lisp - where a byte is as long as you want it to be®
2016-07-22T23:01:38Z phoe: I love this language
2016-07-22T23:02:41Z phoe: < Bike> byte lenghts aren't fixed
2016-07-22T23:03:03Z rumbler31: which from what |3b| tells me, means that since 'unsigned-byte is not necessarily a specialized array, that the garbage collector needs to review each entry in the array to see if it is a reference to an object on the heap, otherwise if it knows that each array entry is just an 8 bit byte, this is impossible and can skip this
2016-07-22T23:03:25Z Bike: (upgraded-array-element-type 'unsigned-byte) is probably T, yeah
2016-07-22T23:03:38Z Bike: which means that the elements of the array are going to be "boxed", essentially
2016-07-22T23:03:38Z phoe: so well
2016-07-22T23:03:54Z phoe: the compiler goes from the boxed values that it needs to unbox every single time
2016-07-22T23:03:55Z rumbler31: except if you want to consume data from streams i've never seen a stream with a type other that '(unsigned-byte 8).  I just happened to not repeat this in code that didn't complain
2016-07-22T23:04:05Z phoe: to basically a series of bytes*
2016-07-22T23:04:11Z phoe: *as understood in the rest of the computing world
2016-07-22T23:04:19Z rumbler31: ok next question
2016-07-22T23:04:19Z Bike: rumbler31: character streams are not uncommon
2016-07-22T23:04:33Z rumbler31: bike: aside those, I meant.
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2016-07-22T23:06:06Z rumbler31: so next question.
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2016-07-22T23:07:06Z rumbler31: to reiterate context real quick, i'm reading a binary file with a tag structure, like a riff.  I have a specialized reader for a few of the fields, otherwise i return the errant 'unsigned-byte array
2016-07-22T23:07:33Z rumbler31: when doing this wrong, the code not only takes forever to complete but memory usage grows very large
2016-07-22T23:08:06Z Bike: what unsigned-byte array?
2016-07-22T23:08:10Z rumbler31: I can understand why there would be way too much work for the gc so I get why it would take forever, but why exploding memory usage?
2016-07-22T23:08:32Z phoe: boxing?
2016-07-22T23:08:35Z phoe: same issue as above?
2016-07-22T23:08:47Z phoe: does '(unsigned-byte 8) generate this?
2016-07-22T23:09:04Z rumbler31: phoe: no, memory usage is lower
2016-07-22T23:09:49Z rumbler31: bike:  I have a loop where I create a tag object from reading the stream, and determine if my next read needs to be a specialized read to create an object for which I know how to do so, or otherwise do a read-sequence call
2016-07-22T23:10:09Z rumbler31: I was making an array of type 'unsigned-byte, and read-sequence'ing into that, and returning it
2016-07-22T23:10:39Z rumbler31: i'd guess half to 80% of the file would consist of the latter read
2016-07-22T23:10:52Z Bike: So if you don't know how to read the next object you just dump the entire rest of the stream into an array?
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2016-07-22T23:11:31Z rumbler31: yes.  this way if I need to modify this file and write it back out, I can preserve the structure I don't care about
2016-07-22T23:11:51Z phoe: rumbler31: how do you create the array?
2016-07-22T23:12:01Z Bike: well, then the obvious memory usage is allocating that array
2016-07-22T23:13:09Z rumbler31: or in my specific case, I need to modify the tag header for every field, and ignore the data for most fields.
2016-07-22T23:13:09Z rumbler31: (let ((data (make-array size :element-type 'unsigned-byte... then later (read-sequence data stream) stream)))
2016-07-22T23:13:29Z rumbler31: bike: sorry not the rest of the stream, just the payload bytes for that field
2016-07-22T23:13:58Z Bike: so not one array, you're making a bunch of arrays, one for every weird field.
2016-07-22T23:14:02Z phoe: rumbler31: can I see a larger chunk of your code?
2016-07-22T23:14:24Z rumbler31: bike:  so i read a fixed size field header that includes the payload type and byte length, if its a type I know about I pass the stream to the specialized reader, otherwise issue a read-sequence call for the payload bytes and then loop back
2016-07-22T23:14:27Z phoe: Like, above that LET.
2016-07-22T23:14:37Z rumbler31: yes one moment
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2016-07-22T23:14:39Z rumbler31: yes
2016-07-22T23:14:39Z rumbler31: one moment
2016-07-22T23:14:41Z phoe: Or actually.
2016-07-22T23:14:52Z phoe: You can substitute each (make-array ...) with:
2016-07-22T23:15:04Z Bike: right, i see. so a bunch of arrays that end up holding 80% of the file :p
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2016-07-22T23:15:15Z phoe: (progn (format t "Allocating an array!~%") (make-array ...))
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2016-07-22T23:15:27Z phoe: And tell me how much of your console gets spammed when you run your code.
2016-07-22T23:15:31Z phoe: Also, how big are the arrays?
2016-07-22T23:15:45Z rumbler31: if you're familiar with the pcl chapter on the id tag parsing, its essentially that, except less sophisticated.
2016-07-22T23:15:54Z phoe: Huh.
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2016-07-22T23:16:10Z rumbler31: the arrays seem to be under 1000 bytes each
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2016-07-22T23:18:40Z rumbler31: bike: yes, this is necessary as my primary task is to modify the headers of each payload and leave most of the data unchanged
2016-07-22T23:18:55Z Bike: it might be, but it isn't going to be cheap memorywise, is all.
2016-07-22T23:19:06Z phoe: rumbler31: I'd actually go another way.
2016-07-22T23:19:14Z phoe: Store only the modified parts in memory.
2016-07-22T23:19:27Z phoe: And read the unmodified ones from the original file as you want to write the modified one down.
2016-07-22T23:19:49Z phoe: Pros? Little memory usage.
2016-07-22T23:19:58Z phoe: Cons? You read the file twice, which is pretty cheap.
2016-07-22T23:20:06Z rumbler31: for at least one task.  in others I would like to analyse specific payloads, and build the specific readers when I discover that I need data from a new field
2016-07-22T23:20:07Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321089
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2016-07-22T23:20:58Z phoe: You make a new array at each LOOP iteration.
2016-07-22T23:21:56Z rumbler31: now that it turns out that it helps to specify things sometimes, memory usage is satisfactory for what i'm doing now but I see how that could be done
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2016-07-22T23:22:08Z rumbler31: i imagine that is necessary because I need to store new data each time, right?
2016-07-22T23:22:08Z Bike: well, cool.
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2016-07-22T23:22:15Z rumbler31: or lol did I forget about vestigial code again
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2016-07-22T23:22:27Z Bike: technically you could probably come up with some kind of reusal scheme, but fuck t hat noise
2016-07-22T23:22:42Z rumbler31: phoe: what?
2016-07-22T23:23:52Z rumbler31: bike: my first thought was that doing all the specialized reading would be slow, and i'd have to come up with a caching mechanism, where the class stores the array and only reads slots out from it as they are first accessed, and writes to the array only when a finalize-to-disk operation is performed
2016-07-22T23:24:08Z phoe: Each LET causes MAKE-ARRAY to fire.
2016-07-22T23:24:08Z rumbler31: but since this is all offline analysis, it doens't have to be blazing fast
2016-07-22T23:24:12Z phoe: Which allocates a new array.
2016-07-22T23:24:19Z phoe: Unless it's late and I'm not seeing stuff.
2016-07-22T23:24:42Z phoe: And I might be blind, because there are more methods defined on that and I'm looking at the least specific one.
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2016-07-22T23:47:15Z rumbler31: phoe I don't know about each let, i've written them in least specific first
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2016-07-22T23:48:00Z rumbler31: so a container header is an object I assume that i've successfully read and instantiated, after that I use the type in the container to read the payload.  unfortunately for *reasons* this type has a sub header
2016-07-22T23:48:18Z rumbler31: that I also read for the real payload type
2016-07-22T23:49:39Z rumbler31: in the case that the subheader type is of two known instances, the method specialized on those and supplies the correct reader, otherwise in the case of a container with a type i'm not expecting the whole payload is returned as an array, and in the case of a subtype i'm not expecting, the subtype header object and the rest of the payload are returned
2016-07-22T23:50:12Z rumbler31: the original location of the 'unsigned-byte arrays were in the least specific methods for container-payload and castable-payload
2016-07-22T23:51:11Z rumbler31: it *seems to work*tm
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2016-07-22T23:53:22Z rumbler31: and this is where the pcl implementation is superior, this dispatch relationship can be baked into the pcl implementation of each of the classes.  I read the book early in my lisping and when I came up against my current problem I remembered enough of what I understood from the chapter to dive in and find myself almost uncannily following along the chapter going, man he's describing standing up almost exactly what i'm doing and then modifyin
2016-07-22T23:53:22Z rumbler31: g his implementation as he encounters the same problems i'm facing....
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2016-07-22T23:54:55Z rumbler31: i should have read the whole chapter again before diving in.  the only thing I've got that I don't see conveniently anywhere else is that I have several array fields to read that could be treated as individual values, or array of structs, and I can specify the array type or the struct type and that it be repeated n times, which will expand to uniquely named slots
2016-07-22T23:56:10Z rumbler31: especially for when I decide I just want the nth circuit breaker value I don't have to remember that oh its an array I have to index, I just use the same slot name convention for the accessor (cb-n obj)
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2016-07-23T01:01:18Z kahmalo: in clhs 6.1.2.2, there are excessive parentheses in both tagbody forms. Are such errata still being collected in the CLiki?
2016-07-23T01:01:28Z Bike: sure
2016-07-23T01:01:30Z Bike: clhs 6.1.2.2
2016-07-23T01:01:31Z specbot: Local Variable Initializations: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abb.htm
2016-07-23T01:01:41Z Bike: heh, oops.
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2016-07-23T01:24:00Z kahmalo: do you mind adding it? I'm going to sleep
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2016-07-23T02:49:39Z cref1o: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-07-23T03:45:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-23T03:48:00Z sharkteeth: morning/evening
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2016-07-23T04:27:38Z beach: Fare: Chào Em!
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2016-07-23T04:28:44Z beach: Fare: I think maybe the Tunes #lisp logbot crashed, perhaps due to a temporary network failure.
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2016-07-23T05:54:30Z flicflac: 185.30.166.37 @verne
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2016-07-23T07:07:12Z dmiles: what is the name of the variable for the default file type that is normally set to "lsp" ?
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2016-07-23T07:07:55Z Bike: um. nothing standard?
2016-07-23T07:08:12Z dmiles: i gues not
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2016-07-23T07:21:30Z Bike: why would that come up? the lisp system doesn't make source files that don't have names you provide as far as i know
2016-07-23T07:21:45Z dmiles: ECL doesnt see ".sl" files
2016-07-23T07:21:56Z dmiles: erm ".cl"
2016-07-23T07:22:54Z Bike: what do you mean "doesn't see"? (load "foo.cl") should work fine
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2016-07-23T07:34:27Z PuercoPop: dmiles: are you thing about ASDF definitions?
2016-07-23T07:34:50Z PuercoPop: I know that the extension (:file "foo") looks for is configurable
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2016-07-23T08:28:59Z beach wishes he had a way of remembering important design decisions so as to avoid taking actions later on that are contrary to those decisions.
2016-07-23T08:29:40Z beach: Writing them down doesn't help.  Finding what was written down requires remembering that a decision was made.
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2016-07-23T08:43:02Z PuercoPop: beach: maybe org-mode tags could help (although the interface for querying them is not very pleasant IMHO)
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2016-07-23T08:44:05Z beach: Yeah, maybe so.  I need to think about it.
2016-07-23T08:44:20Z beach: Thanks for the hint.
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2016-07-23T09:53:01Z SumoSudo: Goodday.. How would one completely flush out the REPL and ENV in SBCL?
2016-07-23T09:53:44Z SumoSudo: a fresh restart maybe
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2016-07-23T09:57:27Z rumbler31: do you mean the a slime buffer you're using or do you mean the actual state of the image
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2016-07-23T10:00:29Z SumoSudo: the state of the image I guess.. I have been using (quit) and restrating the sbcl swank server and restarting nvim and its REPL..
2016-07-23T10:00:51Z SumoSudo: I'd like to just reload the .asd file on a fresh image probably
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2016-07-23T10:30:38Z dfigrish: folks, is CommonQt works with Qt 5?
2016-07-23T10:32:01Z PuercoPop: dfigrish: no
2016-07-23T10:32:15Z dfigrish: ah, I see this now "Qt libraries (tested with 4.8), QT5 is not yet supported."
2016-07-23T10:32:20Z dfigrish: but why?
2016-07-23T10:33:58Z PuercoPop: because the author hasn't worked on supporting it
2016-07-23T10:34:30Z PuercoPop: Neither does eql for that matter
2016-07-23T10:37:16Z dfigrish: I'm curious, is it because of lack of time, or because of problems with Lisp impls?
2016-07-23T10:39:53Z PuercoPop: lack if time most likely
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2016-07-23T11:03:10Z rumbler31: sumosudo:  well I guess, what problems are you running into where you find that you must shutdown the image?
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2016-07-23T11:04:53Z rumbler31: as you modify the code for a system you have loadable via asdf, you should just be able to reload the system and the changes will take effect.  if you're doing things like renaming globals, i imagine you'd end up with extra symbols that your new code doesn't use, which you can unintern at you're leisure
2016-07-23T11:05:42Z rumbler31: *or renaming functions (which is really making a new symbol to which you're attaching a function, so unintern applies there too)
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2016-07-23T11:10:03Z rumbler31: if you load a system that you later no longer need, while i don't think it would end up "junking up your image" in an observable sense, I can see how it would be easier to simply restart it.
2016-07-23T11:10:34Z rumbler31: dfigrish: also you're best bet for using commonqt is sbcl.
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2016-07-23T11:32:46Z Grue`: reloading the entire system doesn't always work, especially if you have defvars or name conflicts between packages
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2016-07-23T12:07:16Z SumoSudo: the problem is naming conflicts.. and trying to get the depends-on correct within my package..
2016-07-23T12:08:36Z SumoSudo: using ucw and its package system also breaks across my package.. so is there a way to dump and refresh to swank-server start?
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2016-07-23T12:11:23Z SumoSudo: so all im doing is changing what is defined in the asd and top-level in-package stuff and want to reload from scratch to see what it does..
2016-07-23T12:11:44Z SumoSudo: an nvim close, then an sbcl quit and restart is just to tediouos
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2016-07-23T13:19:11Z rumbler31: sumosudo: if you're goal is to discover how the system behaves from standup, what you end up building will be a build script that will make this process repeatable, which would also end up making this process convenient to restart.
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2016-07-23T13:19:41Z rumbler31: like a script that loads sbcl and invokes the asdf methods to load your system
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2016-07-23T13:40:58Z Grue`: SumoSudo: FYI, in SLIME restarting is just ,r <enter>
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2016-07-23T14:29:13Z sjl: is there an easy way to get 1am to set *package* to the package a test was defined in when running it?
2016-07-23T14:29:34Z sjl: it's really annoying to (run) and get a giant pile of namespaced symbols in the output
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2016-07-23T14:34:32Z sjl: I suppose I can write an ugly macro to hack it in...
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2016-07-23T14:55:51Z beach: sjl: In your test package, write a function my-run that does a (let ((*package* <the-test-package>)) (run)).
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2016-07-23T15:04:28Z sjl: beach: my tests are split into several packages
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2016-07-23T15:05:18Z sjl: I ended up with http://paste.stevelosh.com/5793879bdb3c960007ac8925?lisp
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2016-07-23T15:34:14Z therik: hello
2016-07-23T15:34:30Z beach: Hello therik.
2016-07-23T15:38:15Z therik: i'm really confused about quicklisp, when I do ql:quickload of my local project, sometimes it works fine and other times it skips compiling some files
2016-07-23T15:38:52Z XachX_: therik: it should only compile if it has to. Does it error?
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2016-07-23T15:42:25Z therik: XachX_: nope, in fresh image it produces some dots, skips compilation of some files and doesn't produce any fasl's
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2016-07-23T15:42:52Z beach: therik: Where do you look for your fasls?
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2016-07-23T15:43:54Z therik: beach: next to the .lisp files
2016-07-23T15:44:05Z beach: That's not where they are stored.
2016-07-23T15:44:27Z beach: Try ~/.local/share/common-lisp/
2016-07-23T15:44:43Z beach: Er, no sorry.
2016-07-23T15:45:21Z beach: ~/.cache/common-lisp/...
2016-07-23T15:47:23Z therik: ah i see, but when I C-c C-k file they appear next to it
2016-07-23T15:47:39Z beach: But that does not invoke Quicklisp.
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2016-07-23T15:47:41Z therik: ok, is there a way to force recompilation in quickllisp?
2016-07-23T15:47:43Z beach: Nor ASDF.
2016-07-23T15:47:58Z beach: You can remove the fasls.
2016-07-23T15:48:26Z beach: Or you can use ASDF directly with :force t or something like that.
2016-07-23T15:48:51Z beach: I don't see why you would want to do that though.  Unless you didn't set your dependencies right.
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2016-07-23T15:49:28Z therik: i think i have some problems with lisp, i'm probably not using some macros right
2016-07-23T15:49:50Z beach: I am betting you are not setting your dependencies right.
2016-07-23T15:50:07Z beach: So that a file using a macro does not get recompiled when the macro is changed, maybe?
2016-07-23T15:51:48Z therik: maybe, i have eval-when on :compile-toplevel inside that macro to populate a list, then there is another macro that has eval-when :compile-toplevel that uses that list during expansion in another file
2016-07-23T15:52:26Z therik: so that means, for some reason this file sometimes doesn't get recompiled when changed, but I don't get why
2016-07-23T15:52:39Z beach: I usually put such macros in different files and let ASDF handle it.
2016-07-23T15:52:51Z beach: That way you don't need eval-when either.
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2016-07-23T15:56:08Z therik: beach: you mean if I setup dependency for that file so that it depends on everything, it's gonna be compiled last?
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2016-07-23T15:56:34Z therik: it actually sounds way more reasonable that my little abomination here
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2016-07-23T15:56:53Z beach: Just make sure that a file that contains the definition of a macro is a dependency of every file that uses that macro.
2016-07-23T15:57:24Z beach: In fact, I have given up on :depends-on for ASDF and just use :serial t.  It is much easier to manage.
2016-07-23T15:57:41Z beach: My computer is old, but it usually takes only seconds to compile a system.
2016-07-23T15:57:49Z sjl also just uses :serial t for everything
2016-07-23T15:58:08Z H4ns: seems like the only prudent choice to me, too.
2016-07-23T15:59:50Z XachX_: therik: you can use asdf directly and use :force t.
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2016-07-23T16:00:13Z XachX_: Oops. Lag.
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2016-07-23T16:04:26Z therik: thanks guys, i'll move it to the last file to clean it
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2016-07-23T16:59:40Z unbalancedparen: hi :D
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2016-07-23T17:14:24Z Fare: beach: I find package-inferred-system style nice in avoiding hidden dependencies. If you omit a dependency, the package system will tell you.
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2016-07-23T17:34:41Z beach: Fare: I see.
2016-07-23T17:34:52Z beach: Hello unbalancedparen.
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2016-07-23T18:23:15Z impaktor: I need some help. I'm a beginner (although long time stumpwm-user), and need to install GSLL: https://common-lisp.net/project/gsll/ Following the instructions, it starts to install, all looks well, then throws me into debugger, saying it cant find "rc", and other Greek I don't know.
2016-07-23T18:23:39Z impaktor: Output: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321200
2016-07-23T18:27:37Z Bike: more like dutch
2016-07-23T18:28:53Z impaktor: Hm, yes, some error message is in non-English, sorry.
2016-07-23T18:31:21Z Bike: but yeah, not sure what "no rc in PATH" means, though. might just be a warning about rc startup files, and the real error is the part i can't read
2016-07-23T18:31:22Z impaktor: Here it is in English: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321201
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2016-07-23T18:33:14Z Bike: This seems to be an issue with your GSL version, e.g. https://sft.its.cern.ch/jira/browse/ROOT-7777 https://root.cern.ch/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=20606
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2016-07-23T18:40:11Z impaktor: I know a lot of ROOT users. (They all hate it). Maybe I should ask them if they know of this bug?
2016-07-23T18:40:21Z impaktor: Bike: so you recommend I downgrade GSL?
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2016-07-23T18:40:57Z Bike: i think so, yeah
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2016-07-23T18:41:06Z impaktor: I kind of put in my article (to be submitted next week) that "code is available in Python, Matlab, and Common Lips", but if I cant get GSLL to work, then no go.
2016-07-23T18:41:27Z impaktor: Will submit to high impact journal.
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2016-07-23T18:43:34Z Bike: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/gsll-devel/2015q4/thread.html well, it looks like it should have been fixed...
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2016-07-23T18:51:17Z impaktor: Bike: Should I try to file a bug report? Or this has been resolved, but for some reason doesn't work on my machine?
2016-07-23T18:51:48Z Bike: you might try to contact liam healy, seems like they'd know what to do
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2016-07-23T18:55:19Z impaktor: Dang. I guess GSLL is the way to go when I need to do matrix multiplication, (and basic function minimization)?
2016-07-23T18:56:26Z Bike: well, anything remotely involved, yeah.
2016-07-23T18:56:40Z Bike: it probably usually works, i mean, it's under active development and gsl2 is not that recent, you know?
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2016-07-23T20:14:20Z dfigrish: okay, the CFFI looks good. But how to reload the updated foreign library?
2016-07-23T20:14:35Z dfigrish: wo restarting the Lisp image
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2016-07-23T20:24:37Z Bike: maybe just load-foreign-library?
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2016-07-23T20:29:42Z dfigrish: Bike: well, the documentation say nothing about reloading, but I'll try
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2016-07-23T20:45:20Z dfigrish: Bike: thats great
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2016-07-23T20:45:40Z dfigrish: Bike: works
2016-07-23T20:45:52Z Bike: cool
2016-07-23T20:46:00Z dfigrish: but the documentation should be cleared about this
2016-07-23T20:46:05Z dfigrish: 10 mins  of my life
2016-07-23T20:48:07Z Bike: well, loading and reloading aren't usually that distinct, and you'd have found it if you googled "load foreign cffi" or something
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2016-07-23T20:52:18Z malice: Hello! I've noticed that some .lisp files have got a 4-semicolon comment at the beginning of the file with "Mode:Lisp" and some other data(optionally). What does it do?
2016-07-23T20:53:58Z vydd: malice: like this: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Specifying-File-Variables.html ?
2016-07-23T20:54:13Z malice: Yes. Thanks!
2016-07-23T20:54:28Z vydd: np
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2016-07-23T21:03:49Z JustinHitla: really
2016-07-23T21:04:35Z JustinHitla: which one is better: 1) scheme  2) closure 3) common ?
2016-07-23T21:05:08Z SiCC: what problem is being solved?
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2016-07-23T21:12:17Z John[Lisbeth]: didn't there used to be a lisp dialect for oscillascopes?
2016-07-23T21:12:21Z John[Lisbeth]: in like the 70s or 80s
2016-07-23T21:13:05Z Bike: "for oscilloscopes"?
2016-07-23T21:13:22Z John[Lisbeth]: Yeah I think it was also used in old calculators and in educational settings
2016-07-23T21:13:35Z John[Lisbeth]: I read about it on wikipedia but I can't find it now
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2016-07-23T21:13:46Z Bike: what would a programming language for oscilloscopes be
2016-07-23T21:14:43Z John[Lisbeth]: I just read that they used it for oscillascopes alot
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2016-07-23T21:20:03Z sjl: If I have a function that returns a tree of conses/symbols/numbers, and I would like to keep track of which results I've seen from this function before, what's a fast way to do that?
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2016-07-23T21:20:51Z sjl: longer description of the problem: http://paste.stevelosh.com/5793dfab4d534300070c4933
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2016-07-23T21:21:35Z pjb: JustinHi1la: there's definitely a problem here: your scheme programs cannot run on closure and vice versa.  Instead, let's try to make them evolve to a common lisp, such as Common Lisp, so that all your lisp programs will run on all your lisps.
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2016-07-23T21:23:06Z dfigrish: Bike: wrong. I can easily imagine that loading already loaded library cause error
2016-07-23T21:23:23Z dfigrish: Bike: I'm sure it can be explicitly documented
2016-07-23T21:23:31Z Bike: how would reloading be different?
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2016-07-23T21:23:49Z sjl: and here's the current code: https://bitbucket.org/sjl/hype/src/ea3f9539e534a734974e60a76d60dc442fb89678/src/main.lisp
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2016-07-23T21:25:58Z dfigrish: Bike: by definition
2016-07-23T21:26:13Z Bike: re load: load again.
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2016-07-23T21:27:37Z dfigrish: Bike: well, if follow the LOAD semantic, you're right
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2016-07-23T21:28:28Z Bike: but the real reason it's not documented specifically is probably that recompiling a shared library without also restarting lisp isn't that common.
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2016-07-23T21:29:10Z Bike: also, cffi is a compatibility layer, so any guarantees it makes (like that reloading will work) have to be backed up by the implementations, which also probably haven't run into that.
2016-07-23T21:29:57Z dfigrish: Bike: anyway, I think it would not be superfluous to just document it in 1 notice.
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2016-07-23T21:31:16Z dfigrish: the detailed documentation is better in anyway
2016-07-23T21:32:09Z Bike: hm, might have to take that back, cffi does try to close the library first
2016-07-23T21:33:51Z dfigrish: Bike: yeah, that's it
2016-07-23T21:33:53Z Bike: so submit a pull request, or wait for one of the maintainer to drop by here
2016-07-23T21:34:12Z dfigrish: Bike: well, tomorrow I'll submit
2016-07-23T21:34:23Z dfigrish: oops, today :)
2016-07-23T21:34:29Z dfigrish: 0:38 here
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2016-07-23T21:35:38Z dfigrish: Bike: and thank you :)
2016-07-23T21:36:57Z Bike: mhm
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2016-07-23T21:44:37Z malice: I'm checking out some Lisp project and I noticed that it has a TIMESTAMP file; what is the purpose of that file? Is it common practice?
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2016-07-23T21:56:13Z pjb: malice: I don't have this file in my projects, so you can say it's not common practice.
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2016-07-23T22:15:45Z Puck_: Can I write an OS in Lisp?
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2016-07-23T22:16:22Z malice: Puck_:yes
2016-07-23T22:16:35Z malice: Puck_: check out https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
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2016-07-23T22:17:56Z Puck_: malice, only on Common Lisp?
2016-07-23T22:18:36Z Puck_: malice, I mean, can I write an OS in other dialects (e.g. PicoLisp)?
2016-07-23T22:18:48Z libreman: I have a problem with quickload and the cffi-toolchain. It won't load (which means a lot of other packages won't load either). It gives me a COMPILE-FILE-ERROR on #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "cffi-toolchain" "toolchain" "asdf-compat">. I'm running debian jessie with SBCL 1.2.4.debian.
2016-07-23T22:18:50Z heddwch: This channel is mostly about common lisp
2016-07-23T22:19:08Z heddwch: Other dialects would also be possible, but off-topic
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2016-07-23T22:20:29Z JustinHitla: is lisp interpreter written in lisp itself ?
2016-07-23T22:20:51Z heddwch: That would depend on what implementation you're using, and most are not interpreters, they're compilers.
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2016-07-23T22:22:51Z malice: Puck_: Then I don't know. It should be possible, but I don't know if you can get away with using e.g. PicoLisp exclusively.
2016-07-23T22:22:57Z malice: (but you should, I guess)
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2016-07-23T22:27:46Z dfigrish: libreman: maybe try the latest SBCL version ?
2016-07-23T22:28:51Z libreman: Yeah but that would not be my first choice as this is the latest version in de debian repo's
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2016-07-23T22:30:00Z dfigrish: libreman: while this is the latest version in the Debian repository, it is quite old version in principle
2016-07-23T22:30:08Z heddwch: Your first choice didn't work. :p
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2016-07-23T22:31:01Z libreman: I'm downloading and installing version 1.3.7 at the moment
2016-07-23T22:31:09Z |3b|: libreman: you need newer asdf, either by getting newer sbcl or by installing newer asdf manually
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2016-07-23T22:32:12Z libreman: Yeah with a newer version every thing works
2016-07-23T22:32:23Z libreman: Thanks everybody
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2016-07-23T22:37:48Z dfigrish: good night
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2016-07-23T22:45:57Z JustinHitla: and good luck
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2016-07-23T22:50:51Z phoe: Night, #lisp.
2016-07-23T22:55:00Z JustinHitla: how is it always night somwhere ?
2016-07-23T22:55:48Z prole: Night here. Good night phoe. I'm close to bed too
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2016-07-23T22:59:29Z JustinHitla: 8:55am here
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2016-07-23T23:17:40Z malice: good night
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2016-07-23T23:18:25Z JustinHitla: and good luck
2016-07-23T23:19:08Z JustinHitla: so what is the lisp emacs uses ? common lisp ?
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2016-07-23T23:25:22Z Bike: emacs lisp.
2016-07-23T23:25:37Z JustinHitla: is it useful for anything rather than parsing config for emacs ?
2016-07-23T23:25:47Z JustinHitla: or writing scripts for emacs
2016-07-23T23:25:56Z JustinHitla: I mean outside of emacsbox
2016-07-23T23:26:09Z Bike: it's basically for emacs, yes. but there are some weird things written in it like http servers (that run within emacs)
2016-07-23T23:26:41Z JustinHitla: "weird things", you think they don't deserve to live ?
2016-07-23T23:27:33Z Bike: i just said they're weird, geez. cos they're in a text editor, that's all.
2016-07-23T23:27:56Z JustinHitla: Bike: pedal or motor ?
2016-07-23T23:28:04Z Bike: What?
2016-07-23T23:28:18Z JustinHitla: nothing
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2016-07-23T23:43:24Z rumbler31: pedal bike or motor bike
2016-07-23T23:43:42Z Bike: I'm actually stuffed.
2016-07-23T23:43:44Z JustinHitla: he just a bike
2016-07-23T23:44:11Z rumbler31: <.<
2016-07-23T23:46:07Z totimkopf: has anyone here read Common Lisp Recipes?
2016-07-23T23:47:44Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, hey, I'm looking for system where ecl is used and where they compete in terms of interrupts/memory handling? any hints?
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2016-07-24T00:06:50Z pjb: Bike: it's not weird: the text editor itself is written in lisp!
2016-07-24T00:07:44Z pjb: totimkopf: I was cooking chief before the Common Lisp Recipes were written, so, no, I didn't read them: I write my own recipes.
2016-07-24T00:07:53Z pjb: totimkopf: tell us: are they any good?
2016-07-24T00:08:22Z totimkopf: pjb: no idea, just got my copy
2016-07-24T00:08:39Z pjb: totimkopf: good, so you can read it and tell us later :-)
2016-07-24T00:09:01Z totimkopf: pjb: what is a cooking chief? :p
2016-07-24T00:09:56Z pjb: totimkopf: http://tinyurl.com/cokking-chief
2016-07-24T00:10:22Z totimkopf: ah, you mean chef :)
2016-07-24T00:10:38Z pjb: ok.
2016-07-24T00:10:56Z pjb: and  s/cokk/cook/
2016-07-24T00:11:02Z totimkopf: hehe
2016-07-24T00:11:29Z JustinHitla: pjb: "the text editor itself is written in lisp", base of it written in C, but since long time all additional code is in lisp, yes
2016-07-24T00:12:04Z pjb: Anyways, emacs is a platonic ideal. GNU emacs is one concrete instance; there's also Hemlock and a few other written in Common Lisp.
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2016-07-24T00:12:50Z JustinHitla: pjb: but who needs emacs when there is vim, right ?
2016-07-24T00:13:02Z pjb: Nope. vim is so lame.
2016-07-24T00:13:33Z JustinHitla: pjb: you use emacs as primary editor ? then you biased
2016-07-24T00:13:33Z pjb: Just look over the shoulder of a vim user vs. an emacs user. You'll quickly be edified.
2016-07-24T00:13:43Z pjb: I had a vi period.
2016-07-24T00:13:56Z pjb: So long ago.
2016-07-24T00:14:25Z JustinHitla: they should've called it "six"
2016-07-24T00:14:42Z pjb: seriously impaired experiment?
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2016-07-24T00:15:33Z pjb: vi vi vi the editor of the beast :-)
2016-07-24T00:16:02Z JustinHitla: Wiim
2016-07-24T00:16:09Z JustinHitla: Wii improved
2016-07-24T00:16:33Z JustinHitla: can you imagine edit source code using Wii's stick ?
2016-07-24T00:16:56Z pjb: With the right incantations. You could interface it with emacs and do it.
2016-07-24T00:17:39Z pjb: You can interface emacs with anything, cf htcpcp (coffee.el) or teledildonics.
2016-07-24T00:17:59Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1sXuHnf_lo
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2016-07-24T00:18:46Z JustinHitla: channel goes retard
2016-07-24T00:19:08Z pjb: That's what you get when you start talking scheme, clojure or vim in #lisp
2016-07-24T00:19:12Z pjb: Ask CL questions!
2016-07-24T00:21:45Z JustinHitla: teach me bad things in CL
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2016-07-24T00:27:14Z pjb: Unfortunately too late for me, time to go to bed. Good night!
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2016-07-24T00:27:40Z rumbler31: totimkopf: I've read parts of it
2016-07-24T00:27:56Z rumbler31: JustinHitla: make 10k arrays of type :unsigned-byte
2016-07-24T00:28:10Z rumbler31: do it you won't
2016-07-24T00:28:48Z rumbler31: excuse me I'm tired. of :element-type 'unsigned-byte
2016-07-24T00:30:44Z rumbler31: fill it with data you read from /dev/rand or the like
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2016-07-24T03:27:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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