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2016-01-02T04:22:02Z beach` is now known as beach
2016-01-02T04:22:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-01-02T04:25:20Z heddwch: That's offtopic
2016-01-02T04:29:51Z warweasle`: heddwch: I am Groot!
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2016-01-02T04:31:36Z heddwch: lol
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2016-01-02T04:56:20Z kyfho: devops makes me sad
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2016-01-02T05:09:11Z p_l: beach: is it just me or did the channel turn surreal?
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2016-01-02T05:13:24Z beach: I don't think it's just you.
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2016-01-02T05:14:53Z beach: Perhaps by this coming Monday, things will be back to normal.  Who knows what all that partying can lead to.
2016-01-02T05:22:50Z p_l: ah, that might be it
2016-01-02T05:22:52Z p_l didn't party at all
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2016-01-02T06:38:16Z jasom stayed up until 11:20
2016-01-02T06:43:33Z beach: That's more than I managed to do.
2016-01-02T06:43:55Z jasom: I took a nap today so may be up until midnight
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2016-01-02T06:45:06Z mtl: and here I still haven't gone to bed and it's almost 8 am
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2016-01-02T07:01:53Z moore33: beach: http://wdobbie.com/post/gpu-text-rendering-with-vector-textures/
2016-01-02T07:02:24Z moore33: beach: Looks interesting, also for a summary of other techniques.
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2016-01-02T07:09:19Z beach: moore33: Nice, thanks!
2016-01-02T07:17:51Z pjb: minion: memo for Wasdaf: to access the X clipboard from a termimal program (cl-charm), you can use xclip (this is UNIX!).
2016-01-02T07:17:51Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Wasdaf when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-01-02T07:25:59Z beach: moore33: Am I right in thinking that these techniques do not take into account that alignment of glyphs might change as a result of size?
2016-01-02T07:27:25Z pjb: pillton: Modern was in 1920.  Modern is quite old nowadays.
2016-01-02T07:28:08Z pjb: Whouah! It's even older, it terminated in 1920!
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2016-01-02T07:29:55Z |3b|: beach: it is more reasonable these days to not snap text to pixels, since angular resolution started improving again in the last few years
2016-01-02T07:31:20Z beach: |3b|: Pardon my ignorance, but what does it mean to "snap text into pixels" and what is meant by "angular resolution"?
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2016-01-02T07:32:00Z p_l: |3b|: actually, the choice of that depends on OS, which sets standards for the UI
2016-01-02T07:32:27Z p_l: at high resolution medium, both yield similar enough results to be indistinguishable
2016-01-02T07:32:29Z |3b|: "angular resolution" as in pixels per degree, which combines DPI and viewing distance
2016-01-02T07:32:35Z moore33: beach: I'm not sure. I don't think there is any "tuning" based on glyph size on the screen.
2016-01-02T07:33:15Z pjb: beach: he means mf.lisp
2016-01-02T07:33:22Z beach: |3b|: I have no idea whether you are talking about software, monitors, GPUs, or something else.
2016-01-02T07:33:28Z p_l: beach: Windows and Mac used to have two opposite approaches to fitting glyphs to screen. Windows snapped to pixels for crisp readability on screen, while Mac emulated printing on higher resolution medium which made it a bit aesthetically better but sometimes blurred
2016-01-02T07:33:31Z |3b|: "snap to pixels" as in adjust glyphs to line up with the pixel grid, to pretend you have higher bandwidth display than the nyquist limit
2016-01-02T07:33:50Z |3b|: beach: for angular resolution, displays + OS
2016-01-02T07:34:41Z |3b|: for quite a while, it was very hard to find a desktop display better than about 100DPI, and the OS/software of the times wouldn't work right even if you did
2016-01-02T07:35:24Z p_l: Windows afaik supported it, X11 supported it... and I think that was it
2016-01-02T07:35:31Z |3b|: fortunately with the last few versions of the major OS, that has improved (and even become a feature, see "retina" displays), so hardware has followed by actually providing those displays
2016-01-02T07:35:34Z p_l: Mac assumed 72 dpi iirc or something
2016-01-02T07:35:40Z beach: OK, let me say this: Even on my fairly-high-resolution monitors, and even when I do the rendering in the CPU with a very high resolution, not aligning the glyphs gives unacceptable quality for things like Gsharp.  I don't see how any improvement in OS, GPU, etc could fix that.
2016-01-02T07:35:57Z beach: The only solution I can see is to wait for monitors with higher resolution.
2016-01-02T07:36:10Z |3b|: p_l: sort of, you could change DPI in windows but it would break all sorts of things
2016-01-02T07:36:35Z p_l: |3b|: that's because of ignorant applications, not because of OS
2016-01-02T07:36:48Z |3b|: beach: right, monitors is the important part
2016-01-02T07:36:57Z p_l: |3b|: similar to how Cocoa degenerated by the time "Retina" displays showed up
2016-01-02T07:37:06Z |3b|: p_l: i seem to remember some of those "ignorant applications" shipping with the OS :p
2016-01-02T07:37:21Z beach: So basically the message is: beach, give up and wait for higher-resolution monitors to be available.  Sure, I can do that.
2016-01-02T07:37:37Z |3b|: and i was mainly complaining about the entire ecosystem, not the OS itself
2016-01-02T07:37:45Z beach: I guess once I get my two 4K monitors, I won't care anymore.
2016-01-02T07:37:55Z |3b|: beach: not quite
2016-01-02T07:38:04Z |3b|: that was more the message
2016-01-02T07:38:17Z p_l: beach: you might try to get higher resolution in one dimension by using sub-pixel rendering, but you'll need to know the details about internal layout of the display
2016-01-02T07:38:31Z p_l: (and of course forget about sub-pixel on CRT)
2016-01-02T07:38:37Z |3b|: sort of like avoiding code optimizations that could be solved by a faster CPU and spending the effort elsewhere
2016-01-02T07:38:57Z beach: p_l: I have tried that, and it is not worth it, especially since it basically only works with black and white.
2016-01-02T07:39:16Z beach: |3b|: Yeah, you might be right.
2016-01-02T07:39:49Z beach: One way of looking at it is that I won't have anything to show before 4K monitors become the norm.
2016-01-02T07:41:04Z p_l: beach: ... except in print, so... I think antoszka would love something for music typesetting that would output beautiful sheet music ;)
2016-01-02T07:41:34Z beach: There are several other advantages of giving up.  One important such advantage is that text size in pixels will be totally proportional to text size in some other measure such as point size.
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2016-01-02T07:42:24Z beach: p_l: Now I am totally confused.  Printing is no longer a problem with current printer resolution.
2016-01-02T07:42:25Z |3b|: also easier to rotate/scale/etc nicely if you care about that
2016-01-02T07:42:48Z beach: Yeah, OK, I get it.  Y'all got the message across.
2016-01-02T07:42:53Z pjb: beach: NeXTSTEP (and then MacOSX and iOS) always had the same mode for printing and for displaying.
2016-01-02T07:43:04Z pjb: s/mode/model/
2016-01-02T07:43:09Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
2016-01-02T07:43:19Z pjb: What difference do you see?
2016-01-02T07:43:32Z p_l: beach: I'm a bit confused as well, so I'll just harken back to CLIM and NeWS, and mention the ability to just "replay" the display from screen to hi-res print
2016-01-02T07:43:39Z beach: pjb: I already explained that.
2016-01-02T07:43:45Z pjb: oh, sorry.
2016-01-02T07:43:46Z |3b|: though i guess there are still lots of cheap/low-end laptops with low DPI displays being sold :/
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2016-01-02T07:44:26Z beach: |3b|: Sure, but I am willing to abandon those as part of my targeted user base.
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2016-01-02T07:45:17Z |3b|: and to clarify, i meant the option of not caring about pixels is becoming more reasonable, not that it is necessarily the most reasonable choice, sorry if that was unclear
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2016-01-02T07:45:47Z beach: Right, I think I understand.
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2016-01-02T07:50:03Z beach: moore33: So basically, all we need is regions defined by Bezier curves for all possible chapes?
2016-01-02T07:50:06Z beach: shapes
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2016-01-02T07:50:30Z beach: If so, that is very good news indeed.
2016-01-02T07:51:40Z moore33: beach: I think that is the crux of the technique. Also, I'm not convinced that some pixel-based tuning isn't possible. In the shader, you know you are evaluating the sample for a physical pixel location.
2016-01-02T07:52:43Z pjb: This is good for a screen dump.  However there may be application level difference between displaying and printing.  Basically, the drawing method of the application knows if it's drawing for print or for screen, and can (optionally) format things differently.
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2016-01-02T07:53:48Z pjb: For a simple example, a HTML page will be rendered with links underlined on the screen, but with references to bottom notes with urls on the printed page.
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2016-01-02T07:54:58Z beach: I think I need to digest this information and contemplate the consequences.
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2016-01-02T07:59:12Z jasom: just remember: the more bezier curves you have the longer it takes to render.  It's the law of spline demand
2016-01-02T07:59:38Z pjb: beach: this means that there are several layers to the printing problem.  But the drawing API is the same (and when you print on a Postscript printer or a PDF file, the drawing mechanisms are the same too).
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2016-01-02T08:31:21Z beach: jasom: more different ones, or more that could also be similar?
2016-01-02T08:31:47Z jasom: beach: it was just a dumb pun "spline demand" "supply and demand"
2016-01-02T08:31:58Z beach: Oh, sorry, read to fast. :)
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2016-01-02T08:33:06Z beach: moore33: OK, stupid question(s): For each Bezier "region" is it correct that you just need a single copy of it in the GPU, no matter how it will be positioned in the pixel grid when rendered in different places?
2016-01-02T08:33:33Z beach: ... and no matter how it will be scaled?
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2016-01-02T08:36:52Z beach goes away and will come back later to read the answer(s).
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2016-01-02T14:55:45Z jusss: hi there, if there's a string like "12" and how I know it's integer or not ?
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2016-01-02T14:58:39Z z0d: jusss: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_parse_.htm
2016-01-02T14:58:40Z flip214: clhs PARSE-INTEGER
2016-01-02T14:58:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm
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2016-01-02T15:00:46Z jusss: z0d: cl's functions is really more than scheme
2016-01-02T15:02:00Z dtw: jusss, there is also (every #'digit-char-p ...)
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2016-01-02T15:16:26Z LiamH: (every #'digit-char-p "-34") => NIL
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2016-01-02T15:18:11Z flip214: (loop for i from most-negative-fixnum to most-positive-fixnum if (equalp "-34" (format nil "~d" i)) do (return i))
2016-01-02T15:19:19Z LiamH: (time (loop for i from most-negative-fixnum to most-positive-fixnum if (equalp "-34" (format nil "~d" i)) do (return i)))
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2016-01-02T15:34:09Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2016-01-02T15:34:26Z blub: hi beach
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2016-01-02T15:39:30Z pjb: jusss: flip214's solution is a very good solution, you can alter it for example as: (loop for i from most-negative-fixnum to most-positive-fixnum if (equalp "twelve" (format nil "~r" i)) do (return i)) #| --> 12 |#
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2016-01-02T16:13:31Z flip214: yeah, that solution is expandable to roman numerals, maya numbers, .... EVERYTHING!
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2016-01-02T17:06:10Z jeti: Edi Weitz' book Common Lisp Recipes is available as PDF at http://www.apress.com/9781484211779?gtmf=s
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2016-01-02T17:07:18Z synchromesh: jeti: I'm going to wait until the movie version comes out.
2016-01-02T17:07:37Z synchromesh kids - he's saving up for the dead tree version
2016-01-02T17:09:46Z jeti: Edi himself hasn't yet seen the paper version but expects it 'in a few days'
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2016-01-02T17:14:42Z jsgrant: synchromesh: I'm actually more excited for the Broadway interpretation .
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2016-01-02T17:19:31Z jeti: Read through the first chapter and it begins on a comparatively high level about the subtleties of symbols and packages.  Very useful for me at least.
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2016-01-02T19:54:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: When you guys run a lisp image on a server, do you run it with screen and then open emacs and connect to it when you need to do something or do you just run in emacs in screen too. Because I've been doing the latter, and it's a pain with all the key bindings. Or is there some other setup that works well?
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2016-01-02T19:58:36Z axion: i do the latter, but with tmux, and i don't experience any of this pain you speak of
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2016-01-02T20:00:29Z heddwch: neither... no emacs on the server
2016-01-02T20:00:41Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: how comes emacs is a pain?
2016-01-02T20:00:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: screen uses the shortcuts C-a and C-d among others
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2016-01-02T20:01:33Z pjb: You can configure screen to use other keys for that. I bind it to C-t
2016-01-02T20:01:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: Also, some weird terminal stuff. Like backspace didn't move the cursor back last time I played with it.
2016-01-02T20:01:54Z pjb: You can configure emacs to use it.
2016-01-02T20:01:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: pjb: Well yeah, but then if I want to use C-t for trace or something...
2016-01-02T20:02:02Z pjb: also, use stty
2016-01-02T20:02:12Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: you have to give up something!
2016-01-02T20:02:22Z pjb: But there are 32 control codes to choose from!
2016-01-02T20:02:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: Maybe on YOUR keyboard.
2016-01-02T20:02:57Z heddwch: …
2016-01-02T20:03:01Z pjb: Actually, I use C-z  in screen (but sometimes I have screen in screen, so I may have a C-t temporarily).
2016-01-02T20:03:05Z pjb: On all keyboards.
2016-01-02T20:03:11Z mood: I'd connect to the image using a locally running Emacs, through an SSH tunnel
2016-01-02T20:03:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: That seems like a lot.
2016-01-02T20:03:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: mood: Okay, that makes sense too.
2016-01-02T20:03:28Z pjb: C-z is not that useful in emacs, and you can always M-x suspend-emacs RET instead.
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2016-01-02T20:05:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: Alright, that would work.
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2016-01-02T20:09:09Z pjb: So, screen\shell\lisp which gives you a REPL for "maintainance". If you need to debug, you can load swank and launch a swank server, and connect to it from an emacs instance elsewhere.
2016-01-02T20:09:39Z pjb: Actually, I launch the lisp image in a shell loop, so it's restarted automatically if it quits.
2016-01-02T20:10:00Z pjb: Like this:
2016-01-02T20:10:02Z pjb: su -c 'screen -d -m -S botihn -t botihn -c /home/pjb/etc/screenrc \
2016-01-02T20:10:02Z pjb:          bash -c  "export LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 ; while sleep 2 ; do \
2016-01-02T20:10:02Z pjb:                    /usr/bin/rlwrap /usr/local/sbin/botihn ; done"' \
2016-01-02T20:10:05Z pjb:     - pjb
2016-01-02T20:10:09Z pjb:  
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2016-01-02T20:52:43Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner: i use ^^ as escape character for screen (and tmux), so i have no trouble running emacs in a detached session.
2016-01-02T20:53:20Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner: i don't experience any of the other troubles that you seem to have.  maybe you should experiment with different TERM settings or using a different terminal emulator.
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2016-01-02T21:10:01Z jeti``:  /whois h4ns
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2016-01-02T21:14:43Z malice: Hello guys! Happy new year!
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2016-01-02T21:15:01Z malice: I have a question: I'm reading Paul Graham's On Lisp, and I have a trouble understanding the function:
2016-01-02T21:15:02Z malice: http://ix.io/n7p
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2016-01-02T21:15:48Z malice: It looks to me like the intention was to run mapcar over each list with FN, then append resulting lists
2016-01-02T21:16:42Z Bicyclidine: yeah. that's a common function.
2016-01-02T21:16:43Z malice: However, mapcar, when given more lists, works differently - instead of returning list of results of mapping FN over each list, it returns one list, with result of mapping FN with Nth element of each list as arguments
2016-01-02T21:16:47Z malice: How should that work?
2016-01-02T21:16:54Z malice: Do I understand something wrong?
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2016-01-02T21:17:46Z dim: (mapcar #'list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) --> ((1 A) (2 B) (3 C))
2016-01-02T21:17:48Z Bicyclidine: the idea is that (mappend f l1 l2) = (apply #'append (mapcar f l1 l2)).
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2016-01-02T21:18:40Z malice: Yeah, I'm talking about that dim. I expect mapcar to work just like this.
2016-01-02T21:18:44Z Bicyclidine: so for instance (mappend (lambda (x y) (list (+ x y))) '(1 2 3) '(7 8 13)) => (8 10 16)
2016-01-02T21:19:35Z Bicyclidine: or with dim's, (mappend #'list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) => (1 a 2 b 3 c), which is (apply #'append '((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))).
2016-01-02T21:19:37Z malice: Ahh...
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2016-01-02T21:19:59Z malice: So that's the use case of this function.
2016-01-02T21:20:05Z malice: Now it's clearer to me. Thanks a lot guys.
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2016-01-02T21:27:27Z warweasle: Hey vydd.
2016-01-02T21:29:23Z pjb: malice: notice that there's mapcan: (mapcan (function list) '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) #| --> (1 a 2 b 3 c) |#
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2016-01-02T21:31:25Z malice: pjb: Yeah, but it works destructively. Could that be a problem?
2016-01-02T21:31:41Z pjb: malice: indeed.
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2016-01-02T21:33:29Z pjb: malice: for example, there are a few CL functions that return non-mutable lists, such as list-all-packages. If you returned such a list from the function that would be a problem.  You could compose with copy-list: (mapcan (compose (function copy-list) (lambda (k) (gethash k named-lists))) '(a b c))
2016-01-02T21:34:43Z malice: That makes sense. So I shouldn't use mapcan when I have a chance of getting some conses that are owned by someone else?
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2016-01-02T21:36:45Z pjb: Exactly.
2016-01-02T21:38:15Z pjb: malice: on the other hand, mappend has another problem: it use apply, which calls the function append, and therefore is limited in the number of arguments by call-arguments-limit which can be as small as 50.
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2016-01-02T21:39:26Z malice: pjb: Thanks! I did not know that! It surely looks like a problem...
2016-01-02T21:40:14Z malice: pjb: So to get around it, what should I do?
2016-01-02T21:42:00Z pjb: You may use a function such as com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:concatenate-sequences
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2016-01-02T21:42:43Z malice: Will look into that. Thanks.
2016-01-02T21:43:30Z malice: I have another question, while we're at it, if I may :)
2016-01-02T21:43:34Z malice: I have an example here: http://ix.io/n7q
2016-01-02T21:43:40Z malice: It's quote vs function
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2016-01-02T21:43:57Z pjb: Yes.
2016-01-02T21:44:02Z malice: I do not fully understand why it works like that. I've read that special operator function reaches to the lexical environment
2016-01-02T21:44:15Z malice: And square returns the object, unevaluated.
2016-01-02T21:44:31Z pjb: funcall calls apply.  When apply is given a symbol instead of a function, it calls (symbol-function symbol).
2016-01-02T21:44:46Z pjb: defun sets (symbol-function symbol) which makes the symbol fbound.
2016-01-02T21:45:28Z pjb: but (function square) finds the function named square in the lexical environment, before finding (symbol-function 'square) in the global environment.
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2016-01-02T21:46:01Z malice: That makes sense.
2016-01-02T21:46:19Z pjb: Notice that FUNCTION is called lexically in the body of FLET, while APPLY is not seen here. Therefore APPLY can only find a function dynamically fbound to the given symbol.
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2016-01-02T21:46:59Z malice: Right.
2016-01-02T21:47:07Z malice: Sometimes it looks like Lisp can be as complicated as C++...
2016-01-02T21:47:21Z pjb: It's still simplier.
2016-01-02T21:47:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: ...but the syntax never will be.
2016-01-02T21:47:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks for all the help guys, I'm trying to set up emacs on tmux so it's comfortable.
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2016-01-02T21:49:24Z jeti: minion: add "cl-recipes" as:"Common Lisp Recipes" by Edi Weitz available as PDF from http://www.apress.com/programming/lisp.  Recommended after working through "Practical Common Lisp".
2016-01-02T21:49:24Z minion: OK, done.
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2016-01-02T21:50:14Z malice: Thank you very much pjb.
2016-01-02T21:50:32Z malice: Can this knowledge be found in CLTL?
2016-01-02T21:50:43Z pjb: Yes, and in CLHS.
2016-01-02T21:50:55Z malice: Right. Thanks a lot.
2016-01-02T21:51:27Z malice: pjb: Do you have any website, github account or such? I would be interested in looking at your code or something like that, if you don't mind.
2016-01-02T21:52:03Z pjb: http://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago
2016-01-02T21:52:15Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/
2016-01-02T21:52:27Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html
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2016-01-02T21:53:45Z malice: Oh, it's you. I've read few posts that you wrote. They're nice.
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2016-01-02T21:55:46Z Petit_Dejeuner needs to write something for hosting usenet posts that isn't javascript hell.
2016-01-02T21:59:10Z jaykru_: what's a good library for dealing with file io in CL? (i.e. enumerating the files in a directory) https://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/ looked nice but isn't portable
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2016-01-02T22:00:39Z jeti: H4ns: around?
2016-01-02T22:00:55Z H4ns: jeti: barely
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2016-01-02T22:01:59Z jeti: H4ns: Nice work, book of Edi! Congrats
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2016-01-02T22:02:59Z H4ns: jeti: thanks, i'll forward that.
2016-01-02T22:03:21Z H4ns: jeti: although you'll probably meet him before i do :)
2016-01-02T22:03:48Z jeti: H4ns: Apress spells Lisp still LISP, did you already try to correct that?
2016-01-02T22:04:30Z H4ns: jeti: i'm just a reviewer, i have little influence on the rest of the book promotion process
2016-01-02T22:04:42Z H4ns: well, actually, i have no influence at all :)
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2016-01-02T22:05:09Z p_l: minion: cl-recipes?
2016-01-02T22:05:10Z minion: cl-recipes: Edi Weitz "Common Lisp Recipes" available as
2016-01-02T22:06:43Z pjb: jaykru_: there's cl-path, there's stuff in uiop, com.gigamonkeys.pathnames, etc.
2016-01-02T22:07:54Z phoe_krk: cl-recipes! <3
2016-01-02T22:08:10Z jaykru_: pjb: cl-fad seems to have some nice functions for this. thanks.
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2016-01-02T22:08:53Z pjb: Yes, cl-fad too.
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2016-01-02T22:19:54Z malice: jaykru_: what's wrong with UIOP?
2016-01-02T22:20:45Z jaykru_: didn't really look into it once cl-fad was working
2016-01-02T22:22:16Z jaykru_: I'm very new to CL as you can see
2016-01-02T22:24:03Z phoe_krk: jaykru_: feel free to explore various alternatives and find your own preferred one! Myself I was using UIOP for executing programs as nothing else was portable and working enough for me at the moment, maybe now things have changed.
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2016-01-02T22:26:04Z jaykru_: phoe_krk: cl-fad is working for me, but UIOP seems a lot more extensive and convenient (mainly due to being prepackaged with ASDF)
2016-01-02T22:26:17Z jaykru_: thanks for the help everyone. this channel is so damn friendly!
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2016-01-02T22:27:03Z phoe_krk: jaykru_: you're welcome
2016-01-02T22:27:15Z phoe_krk: jaykru_: and don't feel afraid to stick to what's working at the moment.
2016-01-02T22:27:19Z phoe_krk: you can always unstick yourself later on.
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2016-01-02T22:50:22Z phoe_krk: http://weitz.de/cl-recipes/errata.pdf that's cute
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2016-01-02T23:10:05Z varjagg: Xach: have a version of cl-jpeg that builds with :verbose t now on sbcl
2016-01-02T23:10:09Z varjagg: in my github fork
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2016-01-02T23:19:57Z jeti: phoe_krk: yes dramatic :)
2016-01-02T23:21:54Z phoe_krk: :P
2016-01-02T23:23:13Z jeti: minion: cl-recipes
2016-01-02T23:23:14Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-recipes''.
2016-01-02T23:23:33Z phoe_krk: minion: cl-recipes?
2016-01-02T23:23:33Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-recipes''.
2016-01-02T23:23:45Z jeti: alzheimers
2016-01-02T23:23:52Z phoe_krk: xD
2016-01-02T23:25:38Z jeti: minion: add "cl-recipes" as:"Common Lisp Recipes" by Edi Weitz
2016-01-02T23:25:38Z jeti:        available as PDF from http://www.apress.com/programming/lisp (2. Jan 2016).
2016-01-02T23:25:38Z jeti:        Recommended after working through "Practical Common Lisp".
2016-01-02T23:25:38Z minion: add "cl-recipes" as"Common Lisp Recipes" by Edi Weitz: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/add%20\"cl-recipes\"%20as\"Common%20Lisp%20Recipes\"%20by%20Edi%20Weitz?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 27..
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2016-01-02T23:27:00Z jeti: minion: forget "cl-recipes"
2016-01-02T23:27:00Z minion: What's "cl-recipes"? Never heard of it.
2016-01-02T23:27:57Z jeti: minion: add "cl-recipes" as:"Common Lisp Recipes" by Edi Weitz available as PDF from http://www.apress.com/programming/lisp. Recommended after working through "Practical Common Lisp".
2016-01-02T23:27:57Z minion: OK, done.
2016-01-02T23:28:23Z jeti: minion: cl-recipes
2016-01-02T23:28:23Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-recipes''.
2016-01-02T23:28:41Z jeti: minion: "cl-recipes"
2016-01-02T23:28:42Z minion: "cl-recipes": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/\"cl-recipes\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 21..
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2016-01-02T23:29:22Z minion: What's "cl-recipes"? Never heard of it.
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2016-01-02T23:56:18Z malice: Should, or shouldn't I sharp-quote lambda as an argument function? Why?
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2016-01-02T23:57:21Z varjagg: would (signed-byte 16) map to a useful storage class on sbcl?
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2016-01-02T23:57:36Z varjagg: or it binds a full fixnum anyway
2016-01-02T23:59:54Z p_l: I think it binds to 16 bit values in optimized arrays
2016-01-03T00:00:58Z varjagg: cool
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2016-01-03T00:02:44Z varjagg: yep i see the difference in allocation
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2016-01-03T00:03:41Z p_l: varjagg: with array, you can simplify allocation so that tagging isn't necessary even without going (safety 0)
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2016-01-03T00:04:07Z p_l: (since GC etc. can get type information from definition of the array)
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2016-01-03T01:30:51Z trinitr0n: https://www.facebook.com/events/131858610522588/
2016-01-03T01:30:59Z trinitr0n: If you're in the Pacific Northwest
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2016-01-03T01:54:09Z Quadrescence: trinitr0n, there's going to be a Seattle Lisp Meetup later this month
2016-01-03T01:56:14Z trinitr0n: Quadrescence: Probably can't make it to feb but feel free to pass around
2016-01-03T01:56:45Z Quadrescence: trinitr0n, Are you hosting/going to this meet?
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2016-01-03T01:59:00Z trinitr0n: Quadrescence: I am hosting, yeah
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2016-01-03T01:59:11Z Quadrescence: cool neat
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2016-01-03T02:16:39Z d00der: Hello
2016-01-03T02:17:10Z d00der: So I'm going to make a roguelike, and will write the core in C.. But I want to use a lisp as a scripting language
2016-01-03T02:17:40Z d00der: Guile or Racket seem like the obvious choices, but I have experience with common lisp, how well would that work?
2016-01-03T02:19:15Z les: why not ECL?
2016-01-03T02:19:58Z d00der: Not sure, never heard of it :) I've been away from the lisp scene
2016-01-03T02:20:05Z d00der: Is it a lightweight common lisp?
2016-01-03T02:20:23Z les: yeah its a small light weight cl
2016-01-03T02:20:39Z les: 'embeddable common lisp' if you will
2016-01-03T02:20:59Z les: though to be honest you shouldn't have many difficulties using guile or racket either if you know CL
2016-01-03T02:21:05Z d00der: Great, I'm just reading about it now. Seems like it could be perfect
2016-01-03T02:22:37Z d00der: I'm fairly new to C, and I've been away from CL for a long time, so I don't really have any idea what I'm doing
2016-01-03T02:22:47Z d00der: But the idea sounds fun to me
2016-01-03T02:24:57Z les: depending on how much work you want to do on the 'nuts and bolts' you might want to consider looking at something like libtcod to give you a useful starting point
2016-01-03T02:25:04Z les: for the C side of things
2016-01-03T02:25:28Z d00der: Yeah I've been thinking about that, I've noticed many of the top roguelikes use it
2016-01-03T02:25:34Z d00der: Including my favorite, Brogue
2016-01-03T02:25:47Z d00der: I don't want to reinvent the wheel so I'll probably use it
2016-01-03T02:27:12Z d00der: Thanks for the suggestions!
2016-01-03T02:27:18Z les: Good luck
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2016-01-03T04:56:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hi, I'm trying to write a parser and have the following code. The first function works fine, but the second gets stuck in an infinite loop. I assume the second function gets stuck because I'm popping from a list instead of reading from a stream, and so the recursive calls copy the list by value instead of reference. Is there a better way to go about this? https://www.refheap.com/c01b2ed503a90d2eaa5393230
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2016-01-03T05:01:24Z Bicyclidine: Petit_Dejeuner: it only pops once. try "for token = (pop tokens)".
2016-01-03T05:04:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: Alright, that solves the infinite loop problem.
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2016-01-03T05:28:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-01-03T05:33:39Z nyef: Hello beach.
2016-01-03T05:34:19Z beach: Hey nyef.  What's up?
2016-01-03T05:34:52Z nyef: Not much. In the planning stages for writing a new emulator.
2016-01-03T05:35:15Z beach: What would it emulate?
2016-01-03T05:35:48Z nyef: Looking to start with MIPS, but the scope might expand to cover PA-RISC and Alpha.
2016-01-03T05:36:37Z beach: Existing emulators aren't good enough?
2016-01-03T05:36:58Z nyef: For the MIPS? No.
2016-01-03T05:39:12Z les: i always liked the mips instruction set.
2016-01-03T05:39:55Z les: tidy, lots of registers, mostly (completely?) orthogonal
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2016-01-03T05:40:37Z nyef: I want to emulate a specific MIPS system, and there's basically nothing suitable to use as a basis.
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2016-01-03T05:41:03Z nyef: les: You might also have a look at the Alpha instruction set, it's also pretty clean.
2016-01-03T05:41:37Z nyef: As opposed to the PA-RISC instruction set, which is spectacularly twisty.
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2016-01-03T07:29:51Z pjb: It's crazy, writing a rogue in C!  The dumbest thing to do.
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2016-01-03T07:41:51Z kazlock: Who was it that was helping me with a string search function the other day?
2016-01-03T07:50:38Z H4ns: kazlock: logs are here: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/
2016-01-03T07:51:35Z kazlock: ty h4ns, found it
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2016-01-03T07:52:17Z kazlock: loke: I came up with a way to do string matching in O(n)
2016-01-03T07:52:36Z kazlock: and its pretty simple
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2016-01-03T08:12:10Z ahungry: Why can't CLOS dispatch if two objects want to use the same accessor name?  like, (defclass Foo () ((Blub :accessor Blub))), then a (defclass Bar () ((Blub :accessor Blub))) - I'd think it could look at what object was being passed to the call to (Blub <some-object>) ?
2016-01-03T08:12:24Z ahungry: Or am I only having an issue since I put each defclass in a separate package and the exports are messing it up
2016-01-03T08:12:54Z Bicyclidine: it's totally possible to have the accessors be methods of the same gf, yeah.
2016-01-03T08:13:21Z ahungry: I hate to prefix each with Foo-Blub, Bar-Blub - so in this case, I could probably fix by just dropping all my defclass statements in one large file?
2016-01-03T08:13:21Z H4ns: ahungry: you may want to qualify "Why can't CLOS dispatch" a bit more.
2016-01-03T08:13:49Z H4ns: ahungry: you could also make sure that "Blub" is actually the same symbol for both classes.
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2016-01-03T08:13:55Z Bicyclidine: what file they're in doesn't matter, just the package
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2016-01-03T08:14:12Z ahungry: This is a short example for the project i'm working on https://github.com/ahungry/alluring-allegory/blob/master/src/choice.lisp
2016-01-03T08:14:13Z H4ns: ahungry: from what you're writing, it seems that there are two distinct Blub symbols in two distinct packages.
2016-01-03T08:14:21Z ahungry: trying to keep things more modular (yes)
2016-01-03T08:14:42Z ahungry: Is there a way I can have that file + defclass export just "Text" and not "Choice-Text", to be used in my main.lisp
2016-01-03T08:14:59Z ahungry: as well as have a thing like 'Actor' as a defclass which does the same (but is a different type of Text coming out)
2016-01-03T08:15:02Z H4ns: ahungry: exports are explicit, there is no magic.
2016-01-03T08:15:26Z ahungry: So, the fix is just to avoid needing to export?  Keep them all in the main package vs making the sub packages like this
2016-01-03T08:15:30Z Bicyclidine: oh, you're doing one package per file
2016-01-03T08:15:47Z Bicyclidine: and one class per file
2016-01-03T08:15:58Z Bicyclidine: i would, basically, not do that
2016-01-03T08:16:01Z H4ns: ahungry: no, the fix is to understand what symbols your accessors are named by and creating the packages accordingly.
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2016-01-03T08:16:29Z H4ns: ahungry: or, of course, not understand packages and put everything into one package.  you'd even get applause for that from some people.
2016-01-03T08:17:36Z H4ns: ahungry: you could, for example, have an "api" package that exports all the symbols that are used to name accessors, and then name the accessors api:foo
2016-01-03T08:17:55Z ahungry: For some reason (ignorance) I was hoping the export on the class name itself would bubble up all it's accessors, so anytime a package which was using said package would know to handle the (Accessor <object>)
2016-01-03T08:18:11Z H4ns: ahungry: yeah, ignorance.  you need to learn how packages work.
2016-01-03T08:18:19Z Bicyclidine: symbols are read at read time. the reader doesn't know anything about defclass at all
2016-01-03T08:18:31Z Bicyclidine: package system doesn't either
2016-01-03T08:19:23Z ahungry: I guess I've had to do php too much lately, where a package made up of classes (and all internal methods) are passed around by the object level, so $foo->blub() would never conflict with $bar->blub(), since the method is internal to the object
2016-01-03T08:19:56Z H4ns: cool story bro
2016-01-03T08:20:52Z Bicyclidine: the basic point is that there are no fancy tricks like that: symbols are just read in the current package (though that can incorporate USE and stuff), and symbols with distinct packages are distinct symbols.
2016-01-03T08:21:19Z Bicyclidine: so if you want your accessors to have the same symbol for a name, you do that. there are tons of ways you could organize that - put everything in one package, use an api package like hans said, whatevs.
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2016-01-03T08:23:01Z ahungry: thanks all, night
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2016-01-03T08:29:29Z dreamaddict: ok I am very confused on how ASDF, Quicklisp, and the whole defpackage thing work together in CLisp
2016-01-03T08:29:45Z dreamaddict: it makes me wish for Python’s “import” :P
2016-01-03T08:29:54Z beach: What's stopping you?
2016-01-03T08:30:11Z dreamaddict: I don’t grasp how it’s hooked up already :P
2016-01-03T08:30:20Z beach: I mean, go use Python.
2016-01-03T08:30:29Z beach: Furthermore, CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp.
2016-01-03T08:30:38Z White_Flame: quicklisp finds & downloads ASDF systems for you.  ASDF defines what files go into systems, and how they're downloaded.  Packages are kind of orthogonal to all of that; the code that systems load in can be in whatever package the source code declares
2016-01-03T08:30:43Z beach: If you want to abbreviate Common Lisp, "CL" is preferable.
2016-01-03T08:30:50Z dreamaddict: gotcha
2016-01-03T08:30:50Z White_Flame: s/downloaded/loaded/
2016-01-03T08:31:29Z White_Flame: ASDF predated quicklisp; QL is a nice helper which adds "download from the internet" on top of ASDF's "find this system on disk"
2016-01-03T08:32:01Z dreamaddict: ok so ASDF is the cake and QL is the frosting
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2016-01-03T08:33:09Z White_Flame: Probably the biggest confusion is that systems & packages are completely independent
2016-01-03T08:33:23Z beach: And ASDF and Quicklisp manage "systems", whereas DEFPACKAGE creates a package, which is not like packages in other languages.
2016-01-03T08:33:48Z White_Flame: you can load a system called "cl-utilities", and it could define packages "util-networking" and "old-utils" or whatever
2016-01-03T08:34:15Z White_Flame: the name "cl-utilities" is just a label for the whole system, and has nothing to do with how the actual code is accessed & called
2016-01-03T08:34:19Z dreamaddict: also, I find some .lisp code on github, it’s supposed to do some neat things but there is a ton of .asd and .lisp files and then I wonder, what do I type into the code that I am writing to use which file
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2016-01-03T08:35:06Z dreamaddict: or, which file of all of the files is the default “face” of the package…and then where do those files go?  in a separate folder?  how then do you distribute whatever you make from a mass of .lisp files?
2016-01-03T08:35:10Z White_Flame: the easiest would be to drop that whole directory into ~/quicklisp/local-projects (or symlink from local-projects to a dir holding the git clone), and (ql:quickload "system-name")
2016-01-03T08:35:21Z White_Flame: where the system name generally matches the .asd files
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2016-01-03T08:37:11Z dreamaddict: once the Lisp system has analogues in my brain to C/Python/other languages it’ll probably be a bit easier to grasp
2016-01-03T08:37:36Z beach: It often doesn't.
2016-01-03T08:38:11Z dreamaddict: well…some of it does, a little bit, right?
2016-01-03T08:39:04Z White_Flame: consider C, where a system would be like the directory name of the source code project
2016-01-03T08:39:21Z White_Flame: has nothing to do with the function names or C++ namespace
2016-01-03T08:39:42Z White_Flame: whereas a C++ namespace would be somewhat akin to a Lisp package
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2016-01-03T08:41:11Z White_Flame: python directly maps directory names in the language, while Java also makes filenames & class names match.  Lisp, C/C++, etc don't do that
2016-01-03T08:42:20Z dreamaddict: ok hmmm
2016-01-03T08:43:37Z dreamaddict: because if I were naively designing a package system, I’d want to store a list somewhere mostly permanent that ties a library name to a directory and wad of files
2016-01-03T08:44:18Z White_Flame: ASDF does do that
2016-01-03T08:44:27Z dreamaddict: and then whip up something where you could query the “master list” and just use something like Python’s import…(import lib ‘MP3-AUDIO’)
2016-01-03T08:44:32Z dreamaddict: ok so ASDF has a registry
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2016-01-03T08:44:34Z H4ns: dreamaddict: you'd do that if you'd take files and directories as granted, but that was not the case when common lisp was designed.
2016-01-03T08:44:46Z White_Flame: it has a registry of directories to search in, and finds .asd files.  The system is then directory-relative to that .asd file
2016-01-03T08:44:46Z dreamaddict: that I have heard
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2016-01-03T08:45:34Z heranort: how can i speak to someone in IRC that is visible to everybody, but not using the private message?
2016-01-03T08:45:44Z White_Flame: quicklisp then also adds its downloaded repositories, and ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ to that, as well as (I believe it's on QL's end) defaults to recursively search directories for asd files, so you can just symlink to a deep parent
2016-01-03T08:45:55Z White_Flame: heranort: you just did
2016-01-03T08:46:11Z heranort: no, i want to speak to exactly someone
2016-01-03T08:46:19Z White_Flame: heranort: I just did
2016-01-03T08:46:30Z heranort: White_Flame: like this?
2016-01-03T08:46:42Z White_Flame: sure.  Your irc client might also do tab-completion on names
2016-01-03T08:47:06Z heranort: wow. i just find how cool my client is....
2016-01-03T08:47:08Z dreamaddict: where is the asdf registry located (usually)?
2016-01-03T08:47:30Z White_Flame: asdf:*central-registry*
2016-01-03T08:47:48Z White_Flame: (push "my/dir" asdf:*central-registry*) to add a location
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2016-01-03T08:48:31Z synchromesh: White_Flame: *CENTRAL-REGISTRY* is deprecated; the full ASDF config story is at https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-searches-for-systems
2016-01-03T08:48:37Z White_Flame: good to know
2016-01-03T08:48:40Z dreamaddict: does QL automatically install asdf?  I just tried that in my REPL and it did not work
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2016-01-03T08:49:01Z White_Flame: yes, QL is pretty good at "just take care of it"
2016-01-03T08:50:09Z heranort: dreamaddict: did you put the asdf:*central-registry* into parenthesis?
2016-01-03T08:50:14Z synchromesh: dreamaddict: AFAIK most Lisp implementations ship with a more-or-less up-to-date ASDF these days.
2016-01-03T08:50:14Z dreamaddict: yep
2016-01-03T08:50:16Z heranort: remove them if you did
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2016-01-03T08:50:37Z dreamaddict: ok, it’s in the quicklisp directory
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2016-01-03T08:51:30Z dreamaddict: it would also be cool if there were something that one could invoke to copy every dependent code file into a directory for shipping a project
2016-01-03T08:51:55Z synchromesh: dreamaddict: I'm using ASDF for that at the moment.
2016-01-03T08:51:59Z heranort: how to write GUI programs in CL? I've tried many of the packages, tk, gtk, and something else. but they look ugly on my retina screen. is there any solution?
2016-01-03T08:51:59Z White_Flame: QL has such a feature either in progress or completed
2016-01-03T08:52:06Z dreamaddict: oh nice
2016-01-03T08:52:21Z dreamaddict: I guess one thing about Lisp is that it’s not compiled, strictly speaking, everything stays loose
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2016-01-03T08:52:31Z synchromesh: dreamaddict: That's why I have the "how to configure ASDF" link close to hand. :)
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2016-01-03T08:52:45Z dreamaddict: which is great for only one machine, but starts to boggle me thinking of how that works for distributions and whatnot
2016-01-03T08:53:20Z White_Flame: heranort: iirc, commonqt is well regarded.  I tend to talk to browsers, which takes care of a lot of the front end
2016-01-03T08:53:31Z dreamaddict: heranort:  if you find a good answer to that let me know
2016-01-03T08:53:43Z synchromesh: dreamaddict: ASDF will manage (re-)compiling files as needed, so for delivery you have to tell it not to do that.
2016-01-03T08:54:02Z heranort: White_Flame: is FFI a good idea?
2016-01-03T08:54:12Z White_Flame: heranort: "good" is relative to your project
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2016-01-03T08:54:38Z synchromesh: heranort: I'm running ABCL on the JVM, so it's not just a good idea, it's the law.
2016-01-03T08:54:53Z heranort: hmm.. i just want my assignment to be robust and not very ugly.
2016-01-03T08:55:19Z synchromesh: heranort: Values to variables, or due in on Monday?
2016-01-03T08:55:35Z heranort: no, i'll do that in next semester.
2016-01-03T08:56:16Z heranort: a easy-to-use one, probably. light-weight and robust
2016-01-03T08:56:23Z heranort: not crashing so often
2016-01-03T08:56:44Z heranort: like sdl, i tried its example and it crashed after 15 secs.
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2016-01-03T08:58:50Z White_Flame: does the free version of CCL come with any Mac UI stuff?
2016-01-03T08:59:20Z heranort: clozure cl is about to get outdated on gui, i guess.
2016-01-03T09:01:35Z heranort: it has the GUI stuff called "obj-c bridge" so isn't that a kind of FFI?
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2016-01-03T09:08:45Z synchromesh: heranort: I would've said so, yes.
2016-01-03T09:10:10Z heranort: synchromesh: so there's only three approaches left, commonqt4, web and commercial lispworks.
2016-01-03T09:11:23Z synchromesh: heranort: There's a crowd that are packaging a web-based front-end as a native application GUI framework, but I can't remember what they're called.
2016-01-03T09:12:45Z heranort: synchromesh: alright. i'll keep my eyes on that. thank you anyway. so it's my job to get down to learn common qt :)
2016-01-03T09:13:41Z White_Flame: synchromesh: like webkit?
2016-01-03T09:14:14Z heranort: i truly hope cl has the gui tools like racket does.
2016-01-03T09:14:31Z ecraven: heranort: SLIME is the best :)
2016-01-03T09:14:37Z synchromesh: White_Flame: Like using webkit in your native app, yes.
2016-01-03T09:14:55Z heranort: ecraven: slime? you mean run gui on Emacs?
2016-01-03T09:14:55Z White_Flame: heranort: all the commercial Lisps tend to have full native UI builders
2016-01-03T09:14:57Z synchromesh: Google showed me this, which is a pretty good read: http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/
2016-01-03T09:15:22Z White_Flame also recommends that link
2016-01-03T09:15:28Z synchromesh: Doesn't mention the GUI thing I was thinking of, though.
2016-01-03T09:15:30Z heranort: White_Flame: student, poor, no approach to that...
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2016-01-03T09:16:22Z ecraven: heranort: maybe there are academic versions for students?
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2016-01-03T09:17:01Z heranort: yeah, and even the academic version, lispworks is enough to drive me crazy.
2016-01-03T09:18:33Z heranort: it does has the free version but doesn't support to produce executables. maybe i can pack all the lispworks to my teacher...
2016-01-03T09:18:45Z synchromesh: Ah, here it is: http://ceramic.github.io/
2016-01-03T09:18:57Z synchromesh: "Turn web applications into native desktop apps."
2016-01-03T09:19:16Z White_Flame: Electron, that's it.  I was searching for Element :-P
2016-01-03T09:19:17Z synchromesh: heranort: LispWorks is great if you can afford it.
2016-01-03T09:19:52Z heranort: synchromesh: so use the ceramic I can write webpages and turn it into native desktop apps?
2016-01-03T09:20:22Z synchromesh: heranort: Dude, I found the link for you, but you're going to have to actually read the page(s) yourself... :)
2016-01-03T09:21:25Z heranort: yeah. i'll do that later. the poor net speed is not enough to open that page currently.
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2016-01-03T09:25:27Z synchromesh: You're welcome...
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2016-01-03T09:38:07Z dreamaddict: what some of this looks like, correct me if I am wrong, is using the web browser locally in order to be a GUI
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2016-01-03T09:41:21Z synchromesh: dreamaddict: That's the impression I was getting also: "Electron uses web pages as its GUI, so you could also see it as a minimal Chromium browser, controlled by JavaScript."
2016-01-03T09:42:07Z synchromesh: And it's based on Node.js.
2016-01-03T09:42:35Z dreamaddict: the amount of files it just installed on my machine is insane
2016-01-03T09:42:57Z dreamaddict: I just wonder how easily portable this is…I have a project I’d like to do, a client/server thing
2016-01-03T09:43:31Z dreamaddict: I really like Lisp for…everything except for making a nice, tidy, easily distributable package out of a mass of code, apparently
2016-01-03T09:43:54Z synchromesh: LispWorks can do it. :)
2016-01-03T09:43:59Z dreamaddict: but every time I think I know what is going on, someone posts a Lisp library like this (Ceramic)…and I love it
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2016-01-03T09:47:03Z dreamaddict: but then I think, what if I wrote something with it, how on Earth would someone else run it?
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2016-01-03T09:48:24Z dreamaddict: aaand there’s “Shipping” on the Ceramic website and you know what I’ll just shet mah mouf and check out this fantastic looking piece of software…
2016-01-03T09:48:30Z dreamaddict: thank you synchromesh for that tip :D
2016-01-03T09:49:01Z synchromesh: dreamaddict: You're welcome :)
2016-01-03T09:49:48Z dreamaddict: it’s things like this, and the OpenGL CEPL demo video I saw that make me really wish I could code all of my things in Lisp
2016-01-03T09:50:10Z dreamaddict: the CEPL demo had a guy coding graphics by hot-compiling
2016-01-03T09:50:36Z synchromesh: dreamaddict: I agree, CEPL is something I'd like to spend more time on myself.
2016-01-03T09:51:18Z synchromesh: Using something like Varjo to write WebGL shaders in CL for VR in the browser... yes please.
2016-01-03T09:51:54Z dreamaddict: the only thing I am running into so far in my novice exploration of this language is “how well does it play with other, less cool, languages?”
2016-01-03T09:52:35Z dreamaddict: the honest answer is, I have no idea what resources are available to even answer that question properly, but every time I think something is lacking, it turns out that there is a sweet sweet sweet implementation of it
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2016-01-03T09:54:11Z synchromesh: Yes, the general situation is pretty good and is only getting better.
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2016-01-03T09:54:59Z pjb: ahungry: you don't read cll, do you?
2016-01-03T09:55:05Z pjb: ahungry: you should read cll.
2016-01-03T09:55:55Z dreamaddict: one thing I could say is:  the list of resources available to Quicklisp is…tough to decipher for a newb
2016-01-03T09:56:07Z pjb: ahungry: for example, if you read cll, you wouldn't have missed: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/comp.lang.lisp$20pjb$20package$20interface/comp.lang.lisp/Q9DiBvnVGrg/mL4ZrQWmBgAJ
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2016-01-03T09:57:09Z dreamaddict: I can’t tell what does what, or what packages are more “serious” than others, other than maybe guessing by the list of dependencies…there is no hierarchy that says, for example, that Alexandria and Babel are must-have
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2016-01-03T10:40:39Z dmiles_afk: where are most recent benchmarks between impls?  I am looking specifically to see how ECL stacks up
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2016-01-03T10:45:16Z sea``: oOoooh, I absolutely /hate/ that #'sort in common lisp can destroy its argument. I just ended 10 hours of debugging and it boiled down to that. It was editing a list that I was using
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2016-01-03T10:48:04Z pjb: sea``: (defun safe-sort (seq test &key (key (function identity))) (sort (copy-seq seq) test :key key))
2016-01-03T10:48:38Z sea``: That's exactly what I did! Except for the name. I'm trying to figure out how I'll remind myself to use that instead of sort
2016-01-03T10:49:17Z White_Flame: be a man and call it common-lisp:sort  ;)
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2016-01-03T10:51:05Z pjb: sea``: (defpackage "SEA-LISP" (:nicknames "SL") (:shadow "SORT") (:use "CL") (:export . #.(let (e) (do-external-symbols (s "CL" e) (push (symbol-name s) e)))))  (in-package  "SEA-LISP") (defun sort (seq test &key (key (function identity))) (cl:sort (copy-seq seq) test :key key))
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2016-01-03T10:51:19Z pjb: then (:use "SL") instead of (:use "CL").
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2016-01-03T10:52:18Z pjb: (defpackage "SEA-LISP-USER" (:nicknames "SL-USER") (:use "SL")) (in-package "SL-USER") ; instead of "CL-USER".
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2016-01-03T10:54:35Z sea``: That's just shifting what I have to remember.. I'm going to add a line to my init file that makes it shadow the usual sort
2016-01-03T10:55:08Z pjb: sea``: it's factoring it out, since you will have a lot of other functions to "patch" like this.
2016-01-03T10:55:46Z pjb: further, it's easy to write a lisp function to scan all your source for defpackage and warn on :use "CL".
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2016-01-03T11:14:42Z shka: sea``: i don't see why do you hate this
2016-01-03T11:15:09Z shka: you would have to add additonal O(n) to your sorting
2016-01-03T11:15:18Z shka: not exactly great
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2016-01-03T11:18:17Z dreamaddict: given all of that rigamarole
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2016-01-03T11:18:25Z dreamaddict: I’d rather just remember the (copy-seq)
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2016-01-03T11:20:29Z |3b|: shka: because it is error prone and easy to forget. if there is only one, the destructive version is possibly preferable since you can build the safe version out of that but not the other way around, but lots of other CL functions have a destructive and non-destructive version, so why not sort
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2016-01-03T11:21:57Z shka: well, i would prefer to just have guaranteen about sort
2016-01-03T11:22:12Z shka: since i find myself using sortf macro often
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2016-01-03T12:25:09Z moore33: "Lemonodor-fame is but a hack away!" Does lemonodor still do Lisp?
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2016-01-03T12:32:05Z synchromesh: No, he's moved on to drones.
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2016-01-03T12:34:55Z moore33: That's still cool.
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2016-01-03T12:35:57Z synchromesh: He might still be using Lisp, but he doesn't blog about it any more. His new blog is http://lemondronor.com/
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2016-01-03T12:36:59Z moore33: He frequented #lisp a lot back in the day.
2016-01-03T12:37:31Z lurker: Hie! I want to compare two algorythm together in term of complexity, so I want to calculate the time each takes to compute; how can I do that in CL? Thanks!
2016-01-03T12:38:02Z lurker: I think that there is a function like trace which calculate the time a function makes to compute
2016-01-03T12:38:39Z _death: clhs time
2016-01-03T12:38:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm
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2016-01-03T12:39:19Z lurker: thanks you!
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2016-01-03T12:57:15Z ogam: lurker: you would obviously use a code walker, to determine the data flow and the complexity of the control flow, thus obtaining an O(…) expression.  You could then use a symbolic simplifier to get a simple expression of it.
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2016-01-03T13:02:20Z lurker: ogam: I take notes, and I'll study what you just gave me. Thanks!
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2016-01-03T13:20:37Z sea``: shka: I'll take the extra O(n). I don't really mind. The lispy program I'm running now takes about half a week to complete normally. The slower sorts just tack perhaps an hour or so on, and that's nothing major to me. What /is/ major, though, is forgetting the behavior of sort and running the program for a full day, only to then have it stop unexpectedly and print garbage, and then to have to spend yet /another/ day on top of that
2016-01-03T13:20:37Z sea``: tracking down the bug
2016-01-03T13:21:14Z shka: oh
2016-01-03T13:21:20Z shka: why it takes so long?
2016-01-03T13:24:57Z sea``: because it's a big problem, and this particular instance of it takes this long to solve
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2016-01-03T13:27:10Z sea``: That's a bad reason. It's a program to solve a problem that can't be solved in less than a polyomial number of steps in the input size, and this particular input size is large enough to make it take this long
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2016-01-03T14:41:38Z shka: sea``: i'm wonder what you are doing
2016-01-03T14:43:09Z shrdlu68: Hello, what's the common lisp equivalent of C's fseek?
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2016-01-03T14:43:35Z H4ns: shrdlu68: not quite equivalent, but similar: file-position
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2016-01-03T14:44:48Z shrdlu68: H4ns: It's exactly what I was wishing for, thanks!
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2016-01-03T18:51:15Z ieure: Is there a reasonable template somewhere that I can look at, which builds a standalone binary?
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2016-01-03T18:51:40Z ieure: I'm thrashing around in the ASDF documentation, but having a hard time figuring out how to build a thing.
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2016-01-03T18:55:23Z H4ns: ieure: have a look at quickproject
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2016-01-03T18:57:17Z ieure: H4ns, Thank you, that looks promising.
2016-01-03T18:57:49Z drmeister: Hello everyone
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2016-01-03T18:59:02Z Xach: quickproject doesn't really build a standalone binary, though.
2016-01-03T18:59:43Z H4ns: true enough, sorry.  they'll probably also need buildapp
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2016-01-03T19:01:38Z ieure: Won't ASDF build me a monolithic bin?
2016-01-03T19:02:27Z H4ns: i don't think it does, but i have not followed recent asdf additions.  i use buildapp to build my monolith.
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2016-01-03T19:07:05Z Xach: ASDF does do it
2016-01-03T19:07:10Z Xach: asdf:build-op is the thing
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2016-01-03T19:07:25Z Xach: I continue to use buildapp because I don't know how asdf's thing works
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2016-01-03T19:18:17Z dim: there's also https://github.com/renard/cl-image-builder that allows --self-upgrade of the binary from a source checkout, telling ASDF not to try to find and reload all the dependencies
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2016-01-03T19:18:39Z dim: dunno if asdf:build-op newer enhancements deprecate cl-image-builder
2016-01-03T19:18:44Z dim: (or buildapp)
2016-01-03T19:22:38Z dim: my use case here: being able to use the pgloader binary image (bin dist) to install a patch/fix: git clone pgloader sources, /usr/bin/pgloader --self-upgrade /path/to/sources ...; bugfix available without asking for any CL dev env
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2016-01-03T19:40:17Z fourier: Why this doesn't work? http://paste.lisp.org/display/304488
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2016-01-03T19:42:25Z fourier: shouldn't flet define a lexical context with functions for eval ?
2016-01-03T19:43:09Z H4ns: fourier: eval always operates in a null lexical environment.
2016-01-03T19:43:22Z fourier: aah, ok
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2016-01-03T19:43:46Z fourier: thanks!
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2016-01-03T20:20:54Z kami: Good evening.
2016-01-03T20:20:58Z kami: AeroNotix: ping
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2016-01-03T21:13:59Z AeroNotix: kami: pong?
2016-01-03T21:14:33Z AeroNotix: sorry for the late response
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2016-01-03T21:54:27Z kami: AeroNotix: I have worked a bit on cl-zk. I have used Verrazano to automatically create the cffi bindings.
2016-01-03T21:55:14Z kami: Would you mind if I use stefil for testing?
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2016-01-03T22:06:55Z AeroNotix: sure gfi
2016-01-03T22:07:01Z AeroNotix: kami: if you want
2016-01-03T22:07:51Z kami: AeroNotix: and what is more important: did you have any problems with multithreading?
2016-01-03T22:08:23Z kami: I have some irregular crashes of sbcl when using make-connection with :log-callback
2016-01-03T22:10:05Z je4i: kami: what are advantages of stefil compared to other testing libs
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2016-01-03T22:12:30Z nyef: ... I heard "SBCL" and "crash" in the same sentence without a disjunction. I don't like that.
2016-01-03T22:12:38Z AeroNotix: kami: yeah, in the source I noted that the log-callback version is a bit wonky. I think that's something underlying in the zk library
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2016-01-03T22:13:31Z kami: nyef: AeroNotix and I are working on a cffi based library to interface to zookeeper
2016-01-03T22:13:58Z kami: there is a single- and a multi-threaded version of the zookeeper C library
2016-01-03T22:14:24Z nyef: Ah, okay.
2016-01-03T22:14:33Z nyef: A lot less worrisome for me, then.
2016-01-03T22:15:08Z kami: when using the mt one, I sometimes get this message when in C-land pthread_create is called: * fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 6200(tid 140737050081024): GC invariant lost, file "thread.c", line 309
2016-01-03T22:15:59Z AeroNotix: yikes that's weird. kami can you reproduce?
2016-01-03T22:16:03Z AeroNotix: easily?
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2016-01-03T22:16:44Z kami:  AeroNotix: it happens often, but not each and every time.
2016-01-03T22:17:41Z nyef: Wait, wait... Something other than the SBCL runtime is calling pthread_create()?
2016-01-03T22:17:45Z AeroNotix: kami: show a gist of your code/make an issue on github? Interesting issue but I've been driving for 6+ hours today and I'm totally spent.
2016-01-03T22:17:49Z AeroNotix: nyef: likely the zk library
2016-01-03T22:18:01Z nyef: That might be the issue. ISTR that that's bad mojo.
2016-01-03T22:18:32Z nyef: Especially if it then tries to invoke a Lisp-side callback.
2016-01-03T22:18:43Z nyef: (If the new thread tries, that is.)
2016-01-03T22:18:46Z kami: nyef: that's exactly what happens.
2016-01-03T22:18:56Z AeroNotix: lol, nice nyef
2016-01-03T22:19:03Z nyef: That might be guaranteed not to work.
2016-01-03T22:19:10Z kami: nyef: is there a workaround or should we stick to the single-threaded library?
2016-01-03T22:19:48Z nyef: I'm... not sure, actually.
2016-01-03T22:20:07Z nyef: This is part of the threading infrastructure that might or might not have been improved since the last time I messed with it.
2016-01-03T22:20:15Z nyef: You might be better off sticking to the single-threaded library.
2016-01-03T22:21:28Z nyef: Looks like it's been about five years since the last time I did any heavy lifting on the thread stuff?
2016-01-03T22:22:04Z AeroNotix: nyef: noted, thanks
2016-01-03T22:22:05Z nyef: (The initial push to get threading working on a non-x86oid target... And even then, it turned out that I missed a few bits.)
2016-01-03T22:23:38Z kami: AeroNotix: I will switch to libzookeeper_st and get back. When will you be around here, tomorrow?
2016-01-03T22:23:54Z kami: nyef: thank you for your help
2016-01-03T22:24:20Z nyef: Not a problem. Good luck, and I hope that you get things working.
2016-01-03T22:24:34Z nyef: ... and that eventually SBCL can handle this sort of thread damage gracefully...
2016-01-03T22:24:50Z AeroNotix: kami: yeah definitely.
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2016-01-03T22:26:33Z kami: nyef, AeroNotix: it seems to work flawlessly with the single-threaded version of the libzookeeper
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2016-01-03T22:27:00Z AeroNotix: amazing.
2016-01-03T22:27:16Z p_l: kami: why not write a native interface to zookeeper?
2016-01-03T22:27:23Z AeroNotix: p_l: tried it. Such a pain in the arse
2016-01-03T22:27:33Z AeroNotix: there are a lot of undocumented binary protocols and such
2016-01-03T22:27:56Z AeroNotix: basically I ended up wiresharking two other implentations to figure out what to do
2016-01-03T22:28:02Z AeroNotix: just a waste of my time
2016-01-03T22:28:08Z AeroNotix: seems that using cffi might be simpler to implement
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2016-01-03T22:28:38Z p_l: just be aware that some Hadoop-related protocols are implemented through JNI...
2016-01-03T22:28:55Z p_l: I'm not sure I want to know what happens when JVM and SBCL fight in one process group xD
2016-01-03T22:29:02Z nyef: Maybe we need a C-to-SBCL or C-to-Lisp compiler, so that the bullshit involved is different?
2016-01-03T22:29:12Z AeroNotix: nyef: meta bullshit, if you will.
2016-01-03T22:29:24Z nyef: p_l: Most likely to work on 32-bit windows. Least likely to work everywhere else.
2016-01-03T22:29:38Z kami: p_l: you mean the C lib loads the java lib to do the work? Let me check.
2016-01-03T22:29:49Z p_l: nyef: well, Windows has SEH, so outside of VMS everything else probably got it worse :<
2016-01-03T22:29:59Z nyef: (And that because 32-bit windows SBCL actually makes some gesture towards SEH interoperability.)
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2016-01-03T22:34:13Z p_l: apparently ZooKeeper uses some NIHed up protocol compiler
2016-01-03T22:35:12Z AeroNotix: p_l: yep
2016-01-03T22:35:21Z AeroNotix: exactly why it's a pita
2016-01-03T22:35:51Z kami: p_l: the C library seems to be stand-alone. Parts of the C code are generated from Java code.
2016-01-03T22:37:47Z p_l: jesus, even the "lite" code looks a bit like the original Hadoop protocols
2016-01-03T22:39:03Z p_l: (and those sent packets of java serialized classes
2016-01-03T22:39:33Z kami: je4i: I just happen to have worked with stefil before
2016-01-03T22:39:57Z p_l: why do people invent new crap every time?
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2016-01-03T22:41:56Z nyef: p_l: Because it takes too much effort to figure out how to use the old crap.
2016-01-03T22:43:24Z je4i: used stefil for the first time yesterday (came with clouchdb) and I could not find out how it can show the actual problem diff.
2016-01-03T22:43:26Z p_l: nyef: I think it's sometimes just the effort of filtering out FUD
2016-01-03T22:44:09Z nyef: Sometimes, yes.
2016-01-03T22:44:11Z p_l: nyef: for example, you would hear that "X is bad" but not the details thus spread it further, and then write a new design that is *worse* than X, but you don't know it and hey, it's new, shiny, of course it's better, right?
2016-01-03T22:44:28Z nyef: Or finding actually useful documentation.
2016-01-03T22:44:52Z p_l: nyef: and of course network effects of stuff not getting libs etc. in newer environments
2016-01-03T22:45:23Z p_l: I found out that ONC RPC is probably better (in no-portmap mode) than our current Thrift based RPC (for a project at work)
2016-01-03T22:45:42Z nyef: Yeah, you get "X is bad", but more rarely "here's what X nailed, absolutely, that should be preserved going forward."
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2016-01-03T22:46:18Z p_l: even rarer is getting an Old Bearded One explain "this and this were teething problems and our general naivety"
2016-01-03T22:49:48Z nyef: Like not spelling "creat()" with an e on the end? (-:
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2016-01-03T22:57:27Z p_l: hehehe
2016-01-03T22:58:00Z p_l: that's in the same region as why Pascal is case-insensitive and why classic pascal understands max 10-letter identifiers ;)
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2016-01-03T23:01:47Z kami: AeroNotix: I pushed my changes to my repo
2016-01-03T23:02:48Z kami: Good night.
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2016-01-04T01:19:27Z drmeister: I'm trying to sort a list of packages in order of who uses who.  If package A uses B then B should come before A. Most packages don't use any other packages.   My order criteria is if A is in B's use package list then the the ordering function returns T otherwise NIL.
2016-01-04T01:19:34Z drmeister:  I guess this is called a weak ordering?  Do I need to use a special sort (bubble sort - where every element is compared to every other element) or will the general Common Lisp SORT work?
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2016-01-04T01:23:46Z Heranort: what stopped you from using the general sort?
2016-01-04T01:24:51Z Heranort: if you don't want to change the position of identical elements, go use the stable-sort function.
2016-01-04T01:24:56Z drmeister: Nothing, I implemented it but I can't convince myself that it will always work properly.
2016-01-04T01:25:47Z drmeister: I think I see my issue.
2016-01-04T01:25:53Z nyef: It's a partial order, so you can't use SORT.
2016-01-04T01:26:00Z drmeister: Say I have a package A that uses package D.
2016-01-04T01:26:20Z drmeister: I describe that with the notation  (A D)
2016-01-04T01:26:57Z drmeister: Sorting the list (A D) (B) (C) (D)  has the problem that there is no way of comparing (A D) to (B) or (C)
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2016-01-04T01:27:18Z drmeister: nyef: Thanks, is that the technical name for it?  A "partial order"?
2016-01-04T01:28:11Z drmeister: Yes:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partially_ordered_set
2016-01-04T01:28:17Z nyef: The packages ordered by dependencies... yeah, a partially ordered set.
2016-01-04T01:28:20Z Heranort: ah.. that reminds me of "minimum priority queues"
2016-01-04T01:28:34Z bcoburn_s_e: just add an arbitrary extra criteria?  sort by dependencies and then alphabetically or something?
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2016-01-04T01:30:02Z nyef: So, you have an unsorted list of packages, and your (initially empty) sorted list of packages. Loop over the unsorted list, moving packages to the sorted list if all of their dependencies are already in the sorted list. If any pass over the unsorted list doesn't move any packages then either the unsorted list is empty or you have a dependency loop.
2016-01-04T01:30:39Z nyef: Oddly enough, asdf package-inferred-system has to do this.
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2016-01-04T01:32:51Z drmeister: nyef: Thank you.  That is what I need.
2016-01-04T01:33:44Z nyef: You're welcome.
2016-01-04T01:34:13Z nyef: Had to implement this myself a few years ago. (-:
2016-01-04T01:34:57Z drmeister: I'm reorganizing the clasp startup code for several reasons (discoverability of C++ functions, documentation, cleanup).  Everything is now scraped from the C++ code.  I just realized that I need to intern symbols into packages in the correct order or there is trouble.
2016-01-04T01:35:02Z nyef: Your other option is more of a recursive process, going through each package in turn and doing a depth-first search for dependencies not already in the output list.
2016-01-04T01:35:16Z nyef: Which can highlight particular dependency loops.
2016-01-04T01:36:36Z drmeister: I have a pretty short list of packages so I'll use your first algorithm - I see what it does.
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2016-01-04T01:38:18Z nyef: Mmm. And you can see that it always terminates. I think that the DFS process produces better diagnostics for dependency errors, though.
2016-01-04T01:42:45Z drmeister: Noted.
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2016-01-04T03:20:31Z drmeister: Does the GRAY stream package need to use the COMMON-LISP package?
2016-01-04T03:21:31Z nyef: That would depend on the desired semantics when it is the current package.
2016-01-04T03:22:29Z nyef: Depending on what you're doing, it might be entirely independent, or use :IMPORT-FROM, or similar.
2016-01-04T03:22:47Z nyef: Or it might :USE COMMON-LISP.
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2016-01-04T03:25:43Z drmeister: For generic functions the GRAY package code would use the package qualified names - right?
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2016-01-04T03:27:58Z drmeister: What is the rule of thumb for when you do :USE a package?
2016-01-04T03:31:15Z nyef: I have two ways to express dependencies. One is :USE, and the other is :IMPORT-FROM. I will occasionally :IMPORT-FROM a small number of symbols from another package, or will :IMPORT-FROM without symbols. But I will :USE if I'm expecting to want to refer to many of the exported symbols of a package.
2016-01-04T03:32:01Z nyef: Most of the time, I :USE COMMON-LISP.
2016-01-04T03:32:29Z nyef: But most of the time I'm not declaring "interface packages".
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2016-01-04T03:34:23Z drmeister: Thank you.
2016-01-04T03:35:59Z nyef: You may find that GRAY needs to export certain COMMON-LISP symbols... or vice-versa.
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2016-01-04T04:19:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-01-04T04:21:25Z nyef: Hello beach.
2016-01-04T04:26:39Z blub: hi beach
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2016-01-04T05:45:16Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2016-01-04T05:53:59Z ogam: drmeister: you just need a topological-sort: (mapcar 'package-name (topological-sort (copy-list (list-all-packages)) (lambda (a b) (member a (package-use-list b)))))
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2016-01-04T05:54:50Z ogam: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:topological-sort of course.
2016-01-04T05:56:25Z ogam: Well, not exactly, since there may be cycles (cf. http://paste.lisp.org/display/304509), and this function doesn't return all the nodes in that case.
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2016-01-04T05:58:44Z drmeister: ogam: Thanks - does that work for partially ordered sets?
2016-01-04T06:00:13Z ogam: If it doesn't contain cycle, yes. But package-use can have cycles.
2016-01-04T06:00:40Z ogam: topological sort is designed for partially ordered sets.
2016-01-04T06:01:25Z ogam: My implementation will have to be extended to deal with cycles (it should gather all the member of the cycle together).
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2016-01-04T06:10:41Z nyef: ogam: What if you want to enforce DAGness instead of merely grouping cycles?
2016-01-04T06:12:25Z ogam: Then call package-unuse to break the cycles.
2016-01-04T06:13:03Z ogam: When I say "grouping" I just mean that it would be nice to have members of the cycles in a common exclusive range in the result.
2016-01-04T06:13:42Z ogam: The "A" in DAG means Acyclic!
2016-01-04T06:13:47Z ogam: package-use doesn't define a DAG.
2016-01-04T06:13:56Z ogam: package-use-list I mean.
2016-01-04T06:14:13Z drmeister: It's ok, I don't think I need something so high powered.  These are CL package use declarations in C++ source code and any cycles are considered errors.
2016-01-04T06:15:36Z ogam: drmeister: my advice is to detect them at least. You can use: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304509#1
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2016-01-04T06:43:36Z Quadrescence: is there a way to resolve the circularity between two structures referring to each other? e.g.  (defstruct a (x nil :type b)) (defstruct b (x nil :type a))
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2016-01-04T06:56:25Z lieven: just drop the type declaration in the definition of a
2016-01-04T06:56:58Z Quadrescence: yes, of course that would work, but that is a very unsatisfying solution
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2016-01-04T06:59:52Z lieven: seriously, people tend to overextimate what type declarations in CL will buy them
2016-01-04T07:00:00Z lieven: if you want Haskell, you know where to find it
2016-01-04T07:00:09Z lieven: *overestimate
2016-01-04T07:00:23Z Quadrescence: lieven, sometimes it provides runtime type safety, which buys a lot
2016-01-04T07:00:32Z Quadrescence: im not looking for mega-optimization from it
2016-01-04T07:00:49Z Quadrescence: especially in circular structures, it helps, and in this case it did, when I was interactively compiling
2016-01-04T07:01:00Z lieven: except that in a lot of places, a type declaration tells the compiler to believe you about the type and do less checks
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2016-01-04T07:01:20Z Quadrescence: lieven, yes, so know your compiler and the effects of compiler policy, which I do
2016-01-04T07:01:41Z lieven: anyways, you could try redefining a later on
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2016-01-04T07:05:41Z resttime: Quadrescence, Perhaps usage of DEFCLASS to create the definitions first and then using the meatobject protocol to add the slots with the types afterwards.
2016-01-04T07:06:20Z resttime: *metaobject
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2016-01-04T07:07:52Z flip214: can somebody tell me the local part of @paulgraham.com, so that I can shoot an email about a recent blog post?
2016-01-04T07:08:01Z lieven: we're talking about structures. you can't create these with defclass
2016-01-04T07:09:07Z lieven: flip214: http://paulgraham.com/info.html
2016-01-04T07:09:15Z resttime: Oh, I was implying switching from using a structure to class as well
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2016-01-04T07:10:09Z flip214: lieven: ah, thanks.
2016-01-04T07:10:19Z flip214: didn't look at that page.
2016-01-04T07:10:38Z lieven: it has the devious name of email. how were you to know?
2016-01-04T07:10:46Z loke: lieven: In response to your comment about overestimating the need for type declarations... People also tend to overestimate their need for performance in using structs instead of classes.
2016-01-04T07:10:58Z loke: Hint hint
2016-01-04T07:11:55Z lieven: loke: agreed. I tend not to use defstruct at first for that reason. When and if performace becomes a problem, turning classes into structs can become an optimisation.
2016-01-04T07:12:09Z flip214: lieven: but did you notice that this link is only visible at the root? when in an essay, there's no "email" link...
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2016-01-04T07:12:41Z loke: I have to admit that even in my red-black tree implementation, moving from classes to structs for the nodes gave a barely preceptible performance increase.
2016-01-04T07:12:57Z loke: And that's the type of structure where you'd expect to see some performance.
2016-01-04T07:13:23Z lieven: flip214: did you have some wisdom to share about his latest one about the causes of increasing fragmentation?
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2016-01-04T07:16:52Z flip214: lieven: sorry, no. no wisdom from me, just found a typo.
2016-01-04T07:19:02Z lieven: lol nothing wrong with that. I have a cheque from Knuth for not much more than that and a mistake in a reference.
2016-01-04T07:22:18Z loke: Ohh, a checque from Knuth!
2016-01-04T07:22:23Z loke: PIC/URL, please
2016-01-04T07:22:31Z loke: I have never seen one
2016-01-04T07:22:48Z loke: I have the books here, of course. And I could only wish to find an error in them.
2016-01-04T07:23:07Z lieven: sorry, I just moved last month and it's in one of the myriad boxes in my garage
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2016-01-04T07:24:55Z loke: lieven: I'm shocked, SHOCKED!, that you don't have a picture of it ready to go for situations such as this one.
2016-01-04T07:25:00Z lieven: and the error was in 'Literate Programming', not in tAoCP
2016-01-04T07:25:21Z loke: That's no excuse...
2016-01-04T07:25:28Z lieven: he has stopped doling them out because of too many pictures. His bank got tired of defeating the identity theft attempts
2016-01-04T07:26:01Z loke: lieven: He could just send the 10 dollars (or however many it was) in cash :-)
2016-01-04T07:26:18Z lieven: well, nobody wants the cash
2016-01-04T07:26:48Z lieven: cashing it here in Europe would have cost me far more than its value
2016-01-04T07:27:40Z ogam: Quadrescence: there's no point in (defstruct a (x nil :type b)) (defstruct b (x nil :type a)). You cannot create either a a or a b, since you would need a b or an a first!
2016-01-04T07:28:53Z ogam: (defstruct a (x nil :type (or null b))) (defstruct b (x nil :type (or null a))) ; works in cc.
2016-01-04T07:28:55Z ogam: ccl
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2016-01-04T07:44:06Z flip214: ogam: why not? until you create an instance, you wouldn't need the full definition - so just predeclare it.
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2016-01-04T07:45:47Z White_Flame: flip214: because the :type specifier doesn't allow NIL in the slot
2016-01-04T07:47:17Z White_Flame: circularity generally involves mutating one of the ends to point to a newer item
2016-01-04T07:52:42Z ggole: You could do that directly with let rec, but CL lacks it.
2016-01-04T07:54:46Z flip214: White_Flame: and that's what I proposed - declaring type a (empty), declaring b, redeclaring type a.
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2016-01-04T07:56:24Z White_Flame: it has little to do with declaring types; it has to do with being able to reference instantiated objects
2016-01-04T07:56:47Z White_Flame: and as structs instead of class instances, redeclaring is likely undefined behavior
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2016-01-04T08:00:50Z Seteeri: Has anybody used the pack package? - https://github.com/soemraws/pack
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2016-01-04T08:03:06Z Seteeri: When I use unpack and pass a variable instead of a string - it slows down significantly
2016-01-04T08:03:22Z Seteeri: I can't figure out why...
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2016-01-04T08:05:01Z _death: because it needs to interpret the string each time.. you can use compile-struct-string to compile it once (or every time it changes) and pass it to pack*
2016-01-04T08:05:25Z _death: or unpack* in your case
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2016-01-04T08:06:28Z Seteeri: hmm
2016-01-04T08:07:15Z Seteeri: BTW, do you happen to be the original author of it?
2016-01-04T08:07:21Z _death: yes
2016-01-04T08:07:37Z Seteeri: nice, thanks for the package btw!
2016-01-04T08:07:50Z Seteeri: I'm coming from Python so it's really convenient
2016-01-04T08:07:57Z _death: np
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2016-01-04T08:09:56Z flip214: _death: but it doesn't support the crc type, like perl does, right?
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2016-01-04T08:11:59Z Seteeri: I'm still not exactly sure why I'm getting these results - http://pastebin.com/raw/NvZrbWvc
2016-01-04T08:12:47Z _death: flip214: nope
2016-01-04T08:12:54Z Seteeri: Other than the obvious that there's additional work being done...
2016-01-04T08:14:35Z Seteeri: I'm on Linux 64-bit SBCL 1.3.0
2016-01-04T08:15:11Z _death: suppose another solution is to add a small cache
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2016-01-04T08:15:58Z Seteeri: In my code, when I use a variable it takes almost a second a call, whereas when I use a string, it's almost instant
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2016-01-04T08:17:54Z lieven: probably compiler macros that do a lot of the work at compile time
2016-01-04T08:18:15Z _death: Seteeri: when you pass a string literal it compiles it into closures at load-time..
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2016-01-04T08:20:29Z _death: Seteeri: you can use the memoize package: (org.tfeb.hax.memoize:memoize-function 'pack:compile-struct-string :test #'equal)
2016-01-04T08:22:02Z Seteeri: ah okay
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2016-01-04T08:22:52Z Seteeri: yeah, if I use compile-struct-string beforehand, that speeds it up
2016-01-04T08:23:16Z Seteeri: for me, that's the simpler solution right now so
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2016-01-04T08:33:50Z Heranort: does cl have any stable python ffi currently?
2016-01-04T08:36:55Z loke: Heranort: There is cl-python, which I believe is Python implemented in CL
2016-01-04T08:37:05Z loke: Heranort: What is it you want to do, exactly?
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2016-01-04T08:38:47Z Heranort: use python's gui tools and cl's macro
2016-01-04T08:38:58Z loke: Heranort: What GUI tools are those?
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2016-01-04T08:39:08Z Heranort: like tk
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2016-01-04T08:39:18Z Heranort: it's simple in python
2016-01-04T08:39:19Z loke: There are TK bindings for CL
2016-01-04T08:39:31Z Heranort: i've tried that, it doesn't work fine.
2016-01-04T08:39:39Z loke: TK is not a Python thing. They were invented for TCL back in the very early 90's
2016-01-04T08:39:40Z Heranort: on retina screens...
2016-01-04T08:40:01Z loke: Heranort: OK, so did you try the GTK+ bindings? Or the Qt ones? I hear they are decent.
2016-01-04T08:40:13Z Heranort: gotcha. but i had a book introducing tk in python
2016-01-04T08:40:43Z Heranort: Qt works fine but it is complex.
2016-01-04T08:40:44Z loke: Heranort: Then use a different book. :-)  I think this is an excellent example of someone trying to make the nail fit the hammer.
2016-01-04T08:41:11Z loke: Heranort: I think it's probably worth the effort though.
2016-01-04T08:41:20Z Heranort: :D yeah. until i find other books teaching gui in lisp
2016-01-04T08:41:32Z Heranort: however i couldn't find that yet
2016-01-04T08:41:43Z _death: or you could try and fix the tk bindings
2016-01-04T08:41:54Z loke: Heranort: GUI development has never been a huge priority for CL. And these days, I'd say GUI development doesn't seem to be a high priority _anywhere_ (unless you're mobile)
2016-01-04T08:42:32Z Heranort: loke: so are you recommending the web programming like html??
2016-01-04T08:43:19Z Heranort: i know there's no ansi standard for gui and web programming
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2016-01-04T09:11:40Z flip214: hmmm, just got sbcl 1.3.1 installed (via apt-get), and now clsql won't connect to the database: "There is no applicable method for the generic function CLSQL-SYS:DATABASE-NAME-FROM-SPEC"
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2016-01-04T09:14:05Z flip214: argh, bad image file. sorry about the noise.
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2016-01-04T09:33:22Z pjb: minion: memo for Heranort: there's a very nice python<->CL bridge explained in ELS2014. "CLAUDE – The Common Lisp Library Audience Expansion Toolkit". http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/editions/2014/ELS2014.pdf
2016-01-04T09:33:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Heranort when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-01-04T09:45:26Z flip214: does clsql-orm really need postgres, as written in http://quickdocs.org/clsql-orm/ ? is there a version for mysql, too?
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2016-01-04T09:49:30Z PuercoPop: flip214: ? From the ASD I get the impression it works for sqlite and MySQL, not postgres
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2016-01-04T09:54:11Z flip214: PuercoPop: yeah, https://github.com/AccelerationNet/clsql-orm says that too. thanks.
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2016-01-04T10:29:28Z kami: Good morning.
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2016-01-04T10:46:26Z flip214: can I tell CLSQL to do "use names utf8" or something like that?
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2016-01-04T10:48:27Z flip214: found it, thanks
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2016-01-04T10:50:47Z DeadTrickster: looks like someone is learning clsql today :-)
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2016-01-04T11:09:46Z AeroNotix: kami: I can't find your fork of cl-zk. Did you fork on github or just locally?
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2016-01-04T12:03:52Z kami: AeroNotix: forked on github: https://github.com/darabi/cl-zk
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2016-01-04T12:06:05Z kami: AeroNotix: my fork shows up on https://github.com/AeroNotix/cl-zk/network
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2016-01-04T12:14:35Z flip214: what's the easiest way to check whether a list matches (OR NULL x), and then return x?
2016-01-04T12:14:57Z flip214: what's the most basic pattern-matching in CL?
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2016-01-04T12:16:53Z White_Flame: x
2016-01-04T12:17:04Z djh_: what do you want to return if it doesn't match?
2016-01-04T12:17:10Z White_Flame: if X is nil, that'll return nil :-P
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2016-01-04T12:17:37Z White_Flame: oh, do you mean the literal list of 2 symbols and a variable, (OR NULL x)?
2016-01-04T12:17:44Z flip214: djh_: then another COND clause will get used
2016-01-04T12:17:48Z White_Flame: such that (OR NULL 3) will bind x to 3?
2016-01-04T12:17:49Z flip214: White_Flame: yes.
2016-01-04T12:17:54Z djh_: I was assuming 'x' was the list to be matched
2016-01-04T12:18:16Z White_Flame: yeah, that's a really weird sample
2016-01-04T12:18:21Z White_Flame: PAIP builds such a thing
2016-01-04T12:18:27Z flip214: I'm currently using (AND (EQ (FIRST list) 'or) ...), but that doesn't look nice
2016-01-04T12:18:45Z blub: that's the best vanilla cl has
2016-01-04T12:18:52Z blub: there are libraries to do pattern matching tho
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2016-01-04T12:24:08Z djh_: You could test for the first two in one go with (equal (cdr (reverse list)) '(null or)) I suppose :)
2016-01-04T12:24:51Z AeroNotix: kami: thx
2016-01-04T12:25:28Z kami: AeroNotix: fyi, I'm creating a docker container with zookeeper to use for Travis testing
2016-01-04T12:25:55Z AeroNotix: kami: ok. Doesn't travis have zk though? I recall I've put zookeeper on there before
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2016-01-04T12:27:10Z kami: AeroNotix: I need the zookeeper docker container anyway. But thanks for the hint.
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2016-01-04T12:34:37Z AeroNotix: ok
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2016-01-04T13:11:54Z otwieracz: Is this somehow supported to install quicklisp system-wide?
2016-01-04T13:12:11Z Xach_: otwieracz: i've heard some have done it, but it is not part of the design
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2016-01-04T13:19:53Z phoe_krk: otwieracz: I think Debian does it by default, somehow, but I ignored it and installed it on my own anyway
2016-01-04T13:20:14Z phoe_krk: by default = it's in the repositories and available for installation
2016-01-04T13:21:00Z AeroNotix: otwieracz: I typically use a local quicklisp per project and a global one for quick hacking
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2016-01-04T13:21:10Z AeroNotix: I treat it a bit like virtualenv for python
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2016-01-04T13:21:30Z otwieracz: AeroNotix: quicklisp per project? How?
2016-01-04T13:21:42Z AeroNotix: otwieracz: you can tell quicklisp where to install with the quicklisp:install function
2016-01-04T13:21:50Z AeroNotix: I just use this to install it into a specific directory
2016-01-04T13:21:51Z Xach_: you can also simply make copies
2016-01-04T13:21:56Z dwchandler: AeroNotix: you mean "global" as in a user-wide, right? Or actually system-wide?
2016-01-04T13:22:08Z AeroNotix: dwchandler: global meaning for a user, sorry
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2016-01-04T13:22:15Z dwchandler: kk
2016-01-04T13:22:19Z AeroNotix: I don't know if system-wide makes sense really
2016-01-04T13:22:32Z AeroNotix: if you're wanting to do it for applications, you should compile an image to run applications from
2016-01-04T13:22:47Z AeroNotix: running applications and loading libraries at start up isn't a nice UX.
2016-01-04T13:22:56Z AeroNotix: compile the application however => run it
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2016-01-04T13:30:14Z flip214: what's the map function for a tree?
2016-01-04T13:30:43Z pjb: maptree.
2016-01-04T13:31:17Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:maptree of course.
2016-01-04T13:32:07Z Xach_: flip214: subst-if, tree-equal
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2016-01-04T13:34:45Z flip214: pjb: Xach_: thanks
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2016-01-04T14:28:05Z clop: Is there a way to temporarily set (declaim (optimize ...)), load some code, and then set the optimize levels back to whatever they used to be?
2016-01-04T14:28:28Z lisp989: Hey guys, so my Lisp knowledge has gone a bit rusty
2016-01-04T14:28:41Z lisp989: I want to get back into it, and was solving the 99 problems
2016-01-04T14:28:59Z lisp989: I wanted to reverse a list, by doing it myself
2016-01-04T14:29:40Z lisp989: but seem not to be able to. I can get it reversed just fine, but not flatten it. So I end up with ((b (c (d (e) ) ) ) )
2016-01-04T14:29:44Z lisp989: or something like that
2016-01-04T14:30:00Z pjb: clop: definitely.
2016-01-04T14:30:29Z lisp989: should I provide the code?
2016-01-04T14:30:29Z pjb: clop: notice that optimization levels are not taken into account when loading fasl file, only when compiling them (and perhaps when loading the sources).
2016-01-04T14:30:46Z djh: lisp989: would probably help
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2016-01-04T14:30:57Z pjb: lisp989: yes, use http://paste.lisp.org/new
2016-01-04T14:32:42Z lisp989: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304528
2016-01-04T14:32:45Z lisp989: here it is :)
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2016-01-04T14:32:56Z djh: eek! Too many newlines!
2016-01-04T14:33:09Z zaquest: ouch
2016-01-04T14:33:51Z clop: pjb, thanks, i wonder if there's a finer grained way to do it?  but i can work with that
2016-01-04T14:34:15Z lisp989: sorry, usually it's not that bad, but I tried using more newlines, seems I went overkill, eh?
2016-01-04T14:34:15Z White_Flame: did you try (locally (declare ...) (load ...)) ?
2016-01-04T14:34:36Z White_Flame: not sure how compilation/loading handles local declarations
2016-01-04T14:35:04Z pjb: lisp989: first, when (null (cdr a)), then a = (x) or () then the reverse should be (x) or (), unchanged.  Why do you call (append a) in that case?
2016-01-04T14:35:44Z lisp989: ah sorry, I experimented with that, I should have pasted the version where it is just car A
2016-01-04T14:35:46Z pjb: lisp989: then, reverseWork returns a list.  to produce a proper list, cons takes an element, and a list (or ()).  So cons won't do there, in the T case.
2016-01-04T14:36:23Z lisp989: what will then?
2016-01-04T14:36:28Z pjb: lisp989: hint: you may use append in instead of cons (with some modification to the arguments); (it will be inefficient, but we can deal with that later.)
2016-01-04T14:37:25Z varjag:  my eyes
2016-01-04T14:37:35Z pjb: lisp989: always put a space before ( ,but not between two ((  Never put a space or a newline before or after a ).
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2016-01-04T14:39:05Z White_Flame: lisp989: I annotated a reflowed version of what people are generally used to http://paste.lisp.org/display/304528#1
2016-01-04T14:39:20Z clop: White_Flame, thanks, I didn't even know about locally
2016-01-04T14:39:30Z White_Flame: (though I seem to have missed inserting a space after reverseWork.  also, rename to reverse-work)
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2016-01-04T14:40:09Z pjb: clop: it's not a good idea to hardwire optimization level in the code.  Never do that.
2016-01-04T14:40:24Z pjb: clop: optimization levels should be left for the FINAL user of the code.
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2016-01-04T14:52:54Z lurker: I find out I think lisp989
2016-01-04T14:54:12Z dreamaddict: I ended up using an accumulator for reverse
2016-01-04T14:54:15Z lurker: http://paste.lisp.org/+6IZ5
2016-01-04T14:54:27Z lisp989: Hey I solved it, just now :D
2016-01-04T14:54:31Z djh: I found an accumulator to be the best way to go
2016-01-04T14:54:38Z djh: Means you can stick to cons rather than append
2016-01-04T14:54:42Z lurker: I used append
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2016-01-04T14:55:17Z lisp989: it will almot ceirtanly make your eyes bleed, but at least it works :P
2016-01-04T14:55:39Z lisp989: certainly*
2016-01-04T14:55:44Z lurker: i don't know if it's even possible to solve this with cons
2016-01-04T14:55:57Z lurker: with a augmentation recursive function
2016-01-04T14:56:18Z pjb: lurker: now, your solution is O(n²).  How could you rewrite it so that it's O(n)?
2016-01-04T14:56:28Z dreamaddict: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304530
2016-01-04T14:56:58Z lurker: pjb: well...
2016-01-04T14:57:17Z pjb: dreamaddict: with labels, you can skip the &optional, and give always the two arguments (ie. call it with '() to start). So it could be compiled to faster code.
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2016-01-04T14:58:09Z dreamaddict: ah…that is good to know
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2016-01-04T14:58:30Z dreamaddict: did not know that &optional was a speed hit
2016-01-04T14:58:33Z clop: if you really want your eyes to bleed, check out rev3 here: https://github.com/acl2/acl2/blob/master/books/coi/defung/rev3.lisp
2016-01-04T14:58:34Z lurker: pjb: i don't know...
2016-01-04T14:58:35Z pjb: dreamaddict: notice that you can test for (endp element) instead of (cdr element) and this simplifies the else branch (just return accum), so you don't have duplicate subexpressions.
2016-01-04T14:58:55Z zaquest: why so many people suddenly reverse lists? ( -_-)
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2016-01-04T14:59:13Z dreamaddict: thank you again pjb…I saw that and it didn’t quite look right (the duplicate expressions)
2016-01-04T14:59:15Z White_Flame: zaquest: school is back in session after the holiday break?
2016-01-04T14:59:17Z lisp989: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304528#2
2016-01-04T14:59:22Z dreamaddict: also did not know about endp
2016-01-04T14:59:35Z lisp989: here is the solution that worked
2016-01-04T14:59:42Z White_Flame: Eternal September lives on
2016-01-04T14:59:58Z dreamaddict: aiii again with the single parentheses
2016-01-04T15:00:04Z dreamaddict: it looks wrong
2016-01-04T15:00:17Z pjb: lisp989: it will fail on (reverseWork '()); try it and debug it.
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2016-01-04T15:01:10Z lurker: pjb: I really don't know how to make it O(n)... I'm such a nubs :(
2016-01-04T15:01:14Z lisp989: Well I didn't write it again from scratch but used the already badly formatted code and just rewrote what was needed for it to work
2016-01-04T15:01:22Z pjb: lurker: it depends on what tools you have (ie: can you use a loop with setf, or must you use recursion?)  dreamaddict has a solution using recursion, where we use an accumulator containing the partial result.
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2016-01-04T15:01:51Z dreamaddict: also, I made an effort to eschew iteration for the List portion of 99 problems
2016-01-04T15:01:59Z djh went with http://paste.lisp.org/display/304531
2016-01-04T15:02:08Z pjb: lurker: if you can use setf, then you just keep this partial result in a variable, and loop over the input cells, consing (pushing) a new cell onto the partial result.
2016-01-04T15:02:12Z lurker: pjb: I still need to learn more about the language, I only know recursion, I'm gonna learn about loop soon
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2016-01-04T15:02:16Z dreamaddict: so that I could practice writing the recursive way because I really needed it…so I didn’t necessarily write the fastest one
2016-01-04T15:02:36Z lurker: Ok i'll try
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2016-01-04T15:03:04Z dreamaddict: also push might be faster than using the cons…?
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2016-01-04T15:03:48Z pjb: dreamaddict: (push element var) basically expands to (setf var (cons element var)), so it's the same.
2016-01-04T15:03:56Z dreamaddict: ok
2016-01-04T15:04:07Z pjb: (but push takes care of evaluating the side effects of var only once).
2016-01-04T15:04:38Z pjb: White_Flame: it's a good thing! We've pushed for years to have more people ;-)
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2016-01-04T15:05:12Z dreamaddict: push is faster than append though, correct?  I was under the impression that append is wasteful in tight loops and I should try not to use it if possible
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2016-01-04T15:05:56Z White_Flame: append has to traverse the full list, push just makes a new head
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2016-01-04T15:06:17Z lurker: Another try: http://paste.lisp.org/+6IZ8
2016-01-04T15:06:21Z White_Flame: (well, appending a tail can do tail sharing, but still)
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2016-01-04T15:06:57Z lurker: pjb: Is it what you mean by "tmp variable" which i need to push?
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2016-01-04T15:29:15Z ghard: Howdy! Has anybody been looking into hacking an ODBC backend for CL-DBI?
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2016-01-04T15:31:25Z pjb: lurker: imagine you want to reverse a chain. You can hold the head of the chain in one hand, and the head of the reversed chain so far, in the other hand. You take the first element of the chain, and push it on the reversed chain so far. And repeat until no element is left from the input chain. Then you will have the whole reversed chain in the other hand.
2016-01-04T15:31:34Z pjb: This other hand is you temp variable. ;-)
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2016-01-04T15:32:54Z pjb: lurker: this is a good accumulator version.  Often we prefer to replace the &optional with a local function using labels, but sometimes it's useful to have it on the API. A typical example is revappend (or nreconc).
2016-01-04T15:33:31Z pjb: (defun rev (list) (revappend list '())) (rev '(1 2 3)) --> (3 2 1)  ; cheater ;-)
2016-01-04T15:35:57Z pjb: dreamaddict: yes, push = cons = allocates only one cons cell.  append will have to copy all the lists (but the last one), so it will allocate O(n) cons cells (therefore using a proportional O(n) time).
2016-01-04T15:36:59Z pjb: dreamaddict: now of course, if you always append a list of length 1, you only copy 1 cons cell, so it stays O(1), only at a cost double. (cons x y) == (append (list x) y)
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2016-01-04T15:45:03Z lurker: pjb: The funny thing is that I started to do what you just said, doing local function, and I was thinking I was doing absolutely just dumb shit.. I'm glad to see that I was not totaly retarded... :D
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2016-01-04T15:50:02Z mrSpec: Hi guys! I'm just using xpath for the first time, Could someone explain me why I see "Hello world" twice at - http://paste.lisp.org/display/304536 instead of "hello world" and "bar"?
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2016-01-04T15:51:41Z lurker: pjb: however thanks for the help and the explanation. It's very helpful
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2016-01-04T15:57:07Z pjb: lurker: You may check my solutions: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/l99/index.html
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2016-01-04T16:04:11Z lurker: pjb: thanks! I didn't even knew the challenge
2016-01-04T16:04:57Z pjb: lurker: check: http://cliki.net/exercices then.
2016-01-04T16:05:07Z lurker: pjb: ok
2016-01-04T16:06:42Z lurker: pjb: Oh ok, you have to not use some precompiled function like nth or nthcdr
2016-01-04T16:07:15Z lurker: Just the basic primitive one
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2016-01-04T16:16:31Z warweasle: Does anyone use callbacks in ECL? Do you have to do anything special? my cl-ode library won't compile either of my two callback functions.
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2016-01-04T16:18:43Z jackdaniel: warweasle: please consult src/tests/regressions/tests/foreign-interface.lsp file, there are callback examples
2016-01-04T16:18:59Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Thanks.
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2016-01-04T16:19:42Z jackdaniel: but it's better to use cffi interface
2016-01-04T16:19:50Z jackdaniel: it should work and is portable
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2016-01-04T16:20:54Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2016-01-04T16:21:01Z jackdaniel: hello beach o/
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2016-01-04T16:21:27Z warweasle: jackdaniel: So cffi doesn't support ecl callbacks?
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2016-01-04T16:21:55Z jackdaniel: I believe it does
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2016-01-04T16:22:04Z jackdaniel: that's why I suggested you should use it
2016-01-04T16:22:09Z jackdaniel: it doesn't work for you?
2016-01-04T16:22:33Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I'm getting a compile error. I can't get any more informatin than that.
2016-01-04T16:22:46Z jackdaniel: hrm, could you share a minimal snippet?
2016-01-04T16:23:18Z warweasle: (cffi:defcallback moved-callback :void ((body :pointer)) )
2016-01-04T16:23:24Z beach: lurker: [I am reading the logs] I suggest you work on your latest version so that it looks more conventional.
2016-01-04T16:23:50Z beach: lurker: Underscore is not used in Common Lisp symbols and your indentation is wrong.
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2016-01-04T16:24:24Z jackdaniel: warweasle: I have only a style warning on that
2016-01-04T16:24:51Z jackdaniel: warweasle: and it works – (callback moved-callback)
2016-01-04T16:24:52Z jackdaniel: #<foreign :POINTER-VOID>
2016-01-04T16:25:00Z beach: lisp989: The same goes for you.  Indent your code properly, and follow the spacing conventions that pjb told you about.
2016-01-04T16:25:01Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Odd...
2016-01-04T16:25:21Z jackdaniel: what version are you using?
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2016-01-04T16:28:58Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I'm trying to remember the version variable...
2016-01-04T16:29:08Z jackdaniel: (lisp-implementation-version)
2016-01-04T16:29:10Z jackdaniel: ↑ funciton
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2016-01-04T16:29:28Z warweasle: jackdaniel: 16.1.0
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2016-01-04T16:29:55Z jackdaniel: could you run it from the cli (instead of slime, which hides some stuff) and paste the error output?
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2016-01-04T16:30:11Z warweasle: I'm updating quicklisp. Let's see if that does anything.
2016-01-04T16:30:30Z jackdaniel: btw, 16.1.0 ain't released yet :p
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2016-01-04T16:31:37Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Oh, that could be my problem.
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2016-01-04T16:32:56Z jackdaniel: :)
2016-01-04T16:34:33Z lisp989: Well thank you guys, you have been very helpful today :)
2016-01-04T16:35:42Z lisp989: I hope in the following days I regain back most of my Lisp knowledge and fix my formatting issues ^^
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2016-01-04T16:37:37Z warweasle: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/+6IZH
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2016-01-04T16:39:38Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Also gcc (Debian 5.2.1-23) 5.2.1 20151028
2016-01-04T16:41:19Z lurker: beach: thx for the comment!
2016-01-04T16:41:53Z lurker: beach: I always use undercore.. Gonna be difficult to change this habbit
2016-01-04T16:41:58Z jackdaniel: warweasle: and you have a recent cffi?
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2016-01-04T16:43:31Z pwnie: im getting these errors that cause my .lisp file not to compile: http://sprunge.us/MRDW - Why? I use setf to set variables to values, but is this not the right way to do it?
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2016-01-04T16:44:47Z lieven: SETQ at toplevel isn't required to create bindings when they don't already exist
2016-01-04T16:45:18Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I just got the newest
2016-01-04T16:45:26Z pwnie: setq? im not using setq?
2016-01-04T16:45:34Z jackdaniel: warweasle: also if you could paste /home/warweasle/.cache/common-lisp/ecl-16.1.0-6e3b64e4-linux-x64/home/warweasle/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-ode/ode.c somewhere (and ode.lisp preferably), then I could try to investigate it
2016-01-04T16:45:41Z lieven: pwnie: note that it's just a warning
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2016-01-04T16:46:23Z pwnie: but why does it always say undefined variable?
2016-01-04T16:46:23Z blub: pwnie: setf expands into setq
2016-01-04T16:46:34Z pwnie: im giving the variable a value, is that not the same as defining?
2016-01-04T16:46:44Z blub: what is the original code
2016-01-04T16:47:08Z Zhivago: Assignment is not establishment.
2016-01-04T16:47:19Z White_Flame: (defvar *things* '((object1 ...)))
2016-01-04T16:47:25Z pwnie: blub: http://sprunge.us/TRfa
2016-01-04T16:47:34Z blub: oh
2016-01-04T16:47:38Z White_Flame: most lisps will be generous and create a variable for you if you set to one that doesn't exist
2016-01-04T16:47:46Z White_Flame: but usually not without warning
2016-01-04T16:48:03Z warweasle: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304541#1
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2016-01-04T16:48:42Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Most likely I'm doing something dumb, but it does work on sbcl.
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2016-01-04T16:49:35Z pwnie: White_Flame: Why things wrapped with *'s?
2016-01-04T16:49:59Z White_Flame: pwnie: it's purely a convention, to ensure that you don't accidentally bind that variable locally somewhere, too
2016-01-04T16:50:12Z warweasle: pwnie: We call them "earmuffs"
2016-01-04T16:50:17Z warweasle: pwnie: :)
2016-01-04T16:50:21Z pwnie: heh
2016-01-04T16:50:58Z White_Flame: if some function did (let ((things '(1 2 3)) ...) and 'things' was declared as a special variable, then THINGS would be shadowed to the value (1 2 3) for any external code that's called within that body, which is very likely not what's intended
2016-01-04T16:51:45Z White_Flame: the earmuff convention just makes it very apparent that a special variable is being bound
2016-01-04T16:52:49Z jackdaniel: warweasle: implementations have different implementation in cffi. I think it's problem with cffi, but I can't reproduce your problem, hence can't verify this suspicion
2016-01-04T16:53:13Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Let me see if I can replicate it at home. If not, then it's not an issue for me.
2016-01-04T16:53:13Z pwnie: thanks White_Flame
2016-01-04T16:53:45Z jackdaniel: warweasle: if you'll come up with a reproductible case, please post it on the gitlab, I'll take a look at it then
2016-01-04T16:54:10Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Thanks. It's good to see someone keeping ECL alive.
2016-01-04T16:54:38Z jackdaniel: alive and (hopefully) kicking ;]
2016-01-04T16:54:49Z pwnie: I'm still a bit confused though, is it better to use setf or defvar when assigning values to variables?
2016-01-04T16:54:58Z pwnie: In what case would I use setf vs defvar?
2016-01-04T16:55:03Z warweasle: jackdaniel: If I have anything to do about it, it will be *very* popular.
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2016-01-04T16:55:07Z pwnie: And would I ever use setq directly?
2016-01-04T16:55:11Z White_Flame: defvar defines a variable.  setf sets some place
2016-01-04T16:55:34Z White_Flame: setf sets some value into a place, which could be a variable, could be a member of an array/struct/object, etc
2016-01-04T16:56:09Z White_Flame: I think setq is mostly a legacy thing
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2016-01-04T16:56:56Z mtl: pwnie: defvar is only for defining variables
2016-01-04T16:57:07Z pwnie: hmmm, looks like my book doesn't cover assignment until pg 300, maybe theres a reason why they havent gone over this yet
2016-01-04T16:57:09Z mtl: in fact, if the variable already exists, it won't assign the value
2016-01-04T16:57:28Z mtl: you would use setf to change the value of an existing variable
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2016-01-04T16:59:29Z jackdaniel: warweasle: could you tell what is a value of cffi::*cffi-ecl-method* ?
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2016-01-04T17:00:45Z jackdaniel: and if 'ecl-with-backend is present in *features*?
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2016-01-04T17:01:21Z warweasle: jackdaniel: :DFFI
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2016-01-04T17:01:56Z warweasle: jackdaniel: :ECL-WITH-BACKEND
2016-01-04T17:02:04Z jackdaniel: then inlining should take place in a first place with a recent cffi. OK, so as I said, if you come up with a reproductible case, please share.
2016-01-04T17:02:10Z jackdaniel: shouldn't °
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2016-01-04T17:02:23Z warweasle: jackdaniel: OH, I was using it with the C++ build.
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2016-01-04T17:03:00Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I try it at home. Right now I'm on a headless server.
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2016-01-04T17:35:32Z sparta9aa: my gods the java world is such a scam
2016-01-04T17:35:37Z sparta9aa: switch everything to lisp
2016-01-04T17:35:56Z joga snaps fingers and *whoosh*, it is done.
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2016-01-04T17:36:51Z White_Flame: "I had a problem, so I thought to use Java."
2016-01-04T17:36:54Z White_Flame: "Now I have a ProblemFactory."
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2016-01-04T17:42:39Z nyef: White_Flame: Or a ProblemFactoryGeneratorBean ?
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2016-01-04T17:46:53Z attila_lendvai: luis: shall I also delete this: (y-or-n-p "Are you sure you want to quit the inferior lisp process?")?
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2016-01-04T17:56:25Z attila_lendvai has deleted it, leaving it in comments with some commentary
2016-01-04T17:58:33Z lurker: If you put one million monkeys in front of keyboards, one or two should code in Perl; all the other one code in java
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2016-01-04T18:12:20Z sparta9aa: lol
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2016-01-04T18:30:56Z luis: attila_lendvai: okidokie, I'll think about it.
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2016-01-04T18:32:03Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: any progress with CFFI?
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2016-01-04T18:33:19Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: I'm stuck with the asdf part always redoing the generation...
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2016-01-04T18:34:02Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: besides the c2ffi stuff I didn't delve into the macroexpansion code because it needs someone who has a comprehensive understanding of it, who should begin with either a cleanup of the names, or writing a few lines about each of those protocol methods that are overridden for various types
2016-01-04T18:34:31Z attila_lendvai: and that was too much for my current hacking energies in this direction
2016-01-04T18:35:06Z LiamH: But, the problem of requiring a translator for a foreign structure is solved?
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2016-01-04T18:42:34Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: well, solved in the sense that I can continue working, but it's still a hack that effectively disables foreign->lisp translation, so it's not a long-term solution
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2016-01-04T18:43:24Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: I also have serious issues with my perfectionism, and if I start working on this it'll draw me into designing a better cffi api, but that is again a bigger bite than I should take at this point
2016-01-04T18:43:43Z attila_lendvai: forgot the smily... :)
2016-01-04T18:44:22Z LiamH: Well luis was going to rethink the mapping between types anyway, I think.
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2016-01-04T18:46:40Z pjb: lurker: you need a billion monkeys: cf. http://www.gigamonkeys.com
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2016-01-04T19:09:32Z lurker: pjb: haha :D
2016-01-04T19:13:52Z sparta9aa: just simple searches and web gui are hard
2016-01-04T19:13:59Z sparta9aa: let alone redesigning cffi
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2016-01-04T19:41:14Z dim: a billion unpaid monkeys, apparently (IIUC the current pg;dr thing)
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2016-01-04T19:48:32Z sparta9aa: do you as a lisp programmer look at other shops and see 100s of hours wasted on things you could easily do better?
2016-01-04T19:48:33Z katco: if i have (defgeneric foo (bar)), will a CLOS foo accessor not meet that signature?
2016-01-04T19:49:10Z AJavaIdiot: Hi guys, noob question: Why does (with-open-file (stream etc etc) :etc :etc)) not try to evaluate stream as a function, and is more than happy to just use it as a variable?
2016-01-04T19:49:27Z AJavaIdiot: I've got an extra parens in there, but I think it's cleary what I meant
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2016-01-04T19:49:44Z dlowe: AJavaIdiot: stream *is* the variable
2016-01-04T19:50:10Z dlowe: AJavaIdiot: it binds stream to the result of OPEN-FILE, which is passed the rest of that form
2016-01-04T19:50:20Z dlowe: and then closes it when control exits that form
2016-01-04T19:50:22Z Bicyclidine: because with-open-file is a macro that determines its syntax.
2016-01-04T19:50:42Z Bicyclidine: basically the same reason (lambda (foo bar) ...) doesn't try to evalute (foo bar).
2016-01-04T19:50:47Z AJavaIdiot: My question was more in terms of the syntax dlowe: Normally a list's first element is a function, the rest are arguments
2016-01-04T19:51:04Z dlowe: AJavaIdiot: yeah, the syntax is mutable with macros and special forms
2016-01-04T19:51:06Z AJavaIdiot: Ok, that explains it. Thanks to both of you :)
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2016-01-04T20:19:20Z sparta9aa: is lisp better than haskell erlang prolog smalltalk java go ocaml?
2016-01-04T20:19:26Z jackdaniel: no
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2016-01-04T20:19:29Z jackdaniel: it's just different
2016-01-04T20:21:08Z dlowe: I'm willing to take a stand and say that it's better than PHP.
2016-01-04T20:21:27Z AJavaIdiot: there's a lot of hubhub about php6
2016-01-04T20:21:30Z mordocai: I'm also willing to say it is better than java the language (though not necessarily the jvm ecosystem)
2016-01-04T20:21:50Z mordocai: I also don't like go but that's entirely personal preference
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2016-01-04T20:22:48Z AJavaIdiot: so far the greatest thing about common lisp vs other languages I've tried has been how nicely things (usually) come together
2016-01-04T20:23:00Z mordocai: So cl-who is pretty good at lispy syntax -> html. Does anyone know if someone has made a script to turn html to cl-who syntax? Cause I need one.
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2016-01-04T20:23:46Z dlowe: yeah, there are very few pathological corner cases with CL, despite the large number of features
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2016-01-04T20:25:08Z AJavaIdiot: also, the polish notation
2016-01-04T20:25:22Z dlowe: there's infix macros you can use if you want
2016-01-04T20:25:22Z Bicyclidine: mordocai: there are several html parsers, sure. cxml sort of thing
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2016-01-04T20:25:44Z dlowe: nearly nobody uses them after a while.
2016-01-04T20:26:34Z mordocai: Bicyclidine: So what i'm wanting to build (since it doesn't seem to exist) is an emacs mode that edits in s expressions but saves as html. So I need to be able to sexpr <-> html without any loss. That way I can write my html in sexpressions but what my team sees is html.
2016-01-04T20:26:46Z dim: in case there's interest for that around here, I just setup a Dockerfile for pgloader (CL) and an automated build on docker hub for it: https://hub.docker.com/r/dimitri/pgloader/
2016-01-04T20:26:53Z mordocai: Using tmp files as an intermediary is fine for my case
2016-01-04T20:27:11Z dim: the first build has yet to happen before you can get the image, and IIUC a new image will be built for each pull in the master's branch
2016-01-04T20:27:42Z dim: you can then run `docker run --rm --name pgloader pgloader:debian pgloader --version` and have the SBCL image kick in
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2016-01-04T20:29:27Z mood: mordocai: I thought I had seen a library to convert html->cl-who once, but I can't find it so I might be imagining things. It seems fairly easy to implement (famous last words) using an HTML parser and a bit of tree walking
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2016-01-04T20:30:05Z mordocai: mood: Yeah, I was just hoping it was already done.
2016-01-04T20:30:45Z mordocai: mood: With that piece a simple on save/on load file hook should do the rest in emacs.
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2016-01-04T20:31:00Z mordocai: Just "shell out" to common lisp for translation
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2016-01-04T20:52:30Z katco: what's the difference between the with clause and the initially clause in the CL loop macro?
2016-01-04T20:53:28Z isoraqathedh: `initially` introduces a bunch of arbitrary code that runs before the loop actually starts.
2016-01-04T20:53:31Z oGMo: with declares lexical variables, and intially is just a form?
2016-01-04T20:53:49Z oGMo: ah, yes
2016-01-04T20:53:51Z isoraqathedh: `with … = …` introduces some variables that may be used during the loop, and is mroe specific
2016-01-04T20:54:09Z katco: but with is only run 1x before the loop starts, correct?
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2016-01-04T20:54:16Z mood: Yes
2016-01-04T20:54:48Z katco: ah ok. so i would use 'initially' if i wanted something more complicated than vars?
2016-01-04T20:55:08Z mood: 'initially' is for when you don't care about the values produced by those forms, basically
2016-01-04T20:55:33Z katco: ok
2016-01-04T20:55:36Z katco: ty everyone :)
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2016-01-04T20:57:26Z isoraqathedh: How do you make a pathname that has a wildcard in it?
2016-01-04T20:58:50Z isoraqathedh: Like, say, what :name argument would you have to pass into `make-pathname` to make it spit out a pathname that corresponds to "foo*", i.e. the string "foo" and a wildcard/
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2016-01-04T21:03:23Z axion: :wild
2016-01-04T21:04:39Z axion: you can always do (describe (pathname "/some/dir/*"))
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2016-01-04T21:05:30Z isoraqathedh: Eh, not really. It's more like I need to get all files in a dir that match a common prefix.
2016-01-04T21:05:42Z isoraqathedh: So "foo*".
2016-01-04T21:05:55Z isoraqathedh: :wild only permits "*".
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2016-01-04T21:08:42Z Xach: isoraqathedh: unportably, you can use "foo*" and see what happens.
2016-01-04T21:09:01Z Xach: isoraqathedh: portably, you would have to do some manual testing of the prefix yourself.
2016-01-04T21:09:02Z isoraqathedh: SBCL escapes the *, cleverly enoguh.
2016-01-04T21:09:09Z Xach: It doesn't.
2016-01-04T21:09:19Z isoraqathedh: So :name "foo*" becomes "foo^*"
2016-01-04T21:09:57Z isoraqathedh: https://gyazo.com/c16bdb1e3854f06db1c8ae6a3f6bedc1
2016-01-04T21:10:12Z Xach: Ok, I see. Sorry.
2016-01-04T21:10:23Z Xach: You may have better luck with "/foo/bar/foo*" instead.
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2016-01-04T21:15:17Z axion: in sbcl, :name "foo*" => #<SB-IMPL::PATTERN "foo" :MULTI-CHAR-WILD>
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2016-01-04T21:16:03Z isoraqathedh: Is it system dependent how it does it?
2016-01-04T21:16:14Z axion: implementation dependent
2016-01-04T21:16:39Z jasom: isoraqathedh: there are several libraries to allow you to do more file and directory related things portably
2016-01-04T21:16:41Z axion: best to use a portable pathname library, like uiop or cl-fad perhaps
2016-01-04T21:16:44Z isoraqathedh: See, Windows SBCL 1.3.1.
2016-01-04T21:16:52Z jasom: uiop has a little bit, and cl-fad is specifically for this
2016-01-04T21:16:53Z isoraqathedh: Ah, right, I forgot about those libraries.
2016-01-04T21:16:59Z mood: axion: Do you just (make-pathname :name "foo*") for that? My SBCL escapes the *
2016-01-04T21:17:23Z axion: mood: wrap that in a DESCRIBE
2016-01-04T21:18:52Z mood: axion: It's still just a pathname with a Name of "foo*". #P"foo*" gives me a pattern though
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2016-01-04T21:19:59Z axion: oh yes
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2016-01-04T21:56:28Z Yanez: could someone please show me an example of how to use POSIX:WITH-STREAM-LOCK in CLISP?
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2016-01-04T22:05:11Z sparta9aa: I dunno
2016-01-04T22:05:19Z sparta9aa: what are you trying to do?
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2016-01-04T22:08:07Z mood: Yanez: You just (with-stream-lock (the-stream-to-lock) (do-something) (with-the-stream)), what is it you don't understand?
2016-01-04T22:09:41Z Yanez: mood: I get *** - UNIX error 9 (EBADF): Bad file number
2016-01-04T22:10:03Z Yanez: mood: I did (with-open-file (in "filename") (posix:with-stream-lock (in) (read-line in)))
2016-01-04T22:11:41Z Yanez: mood: I think I need to put the stream's fd as argument to with-stream-lock, instead of in, but I don't know how to get that from the stream
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2016-01-04T22:12:27Z mood: The documentation says you should pass the stream
2016-01-04T22:12:59Z mood: I have no idea what the problem is
2016-01-04T22:14:02Z mood: I do get the same error
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2016-01-04T22:15:25Z mood: Yanez: I think the problem is that the file is an input stream, and with-stream-lock by default tries to get an exclusive lock, for writing
2016-01-04T22:15:36Z mood: Adding :shared t makes the call succeed
2016-01-04T22:15:52Z mood: So (posix:with-stream-lock (in :shared t) ...)
2016-01-04T22:16:08Z Yanez: mood: uhm... I actually need it for writing, so let me try opening it for output...
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2016-01-04T22:17:03Z Yanez: mood: yeah, it worked... thanks!
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2016-01-04T22:17:54Z mood: Yanez: np. "We all learned something"
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2016-01-04T23:25:58Z AJavaIdiot: Silly question, but how's my indentation? http://paste.lisp.org/display/304556
2016-01-04T23:26:11Z AJavaIdiot: I'm comfortable reading it, but is it "idiomatic", for lack of a better word?
2016-01-04T23:26:47Z bcoburn_: parens on their own lines is pretty unusual
2016-01-04T23:26:56Z mood: AJavaIdiot: Place the closing )s all on one line, and you're pretty close to idiomatic
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2016-01-04T23:27:14Z AJavaIdiot: I think that's the C programmer in me, bcoburn_
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2016-01-04T23:29:10Z AJavaIdiot: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304557
2016-01-04T23:29:18Z AJavaIdiot: Would this be better, mood?
2016-01-04T23:29:44Z AJavaIdiot: missed one in putfile
2016-01-04T23:34:13Z jasom: AJavaIdiot: I don't put spaces between multiple opening ( on a line, which you do in the cond
2016-01-04T23:34:25Z jasom: and I don't think I've seen that before
2016-01-04T23:35:06Z jasom: oh, and anything of the form (with-foo (stuff) should indent the following line by 2
2016-01-04T23:35:16Z jasom: so the loop in getfile should be indented by two more
2016-01-04T23:36:59Z AJavaIdiot: and also in putfile then
2016-01-04T23:37:01Z jasom: and arguments should be indented past the openeng parens; emacs will by defualt line up your keyword pairs in putfile with the start of (merge-pathnames... but it also wouldn't be wrong to line them up with the start of out
2016-01-04T23:37:02Z AJavaIdiot: ok, thanks jasom
2016-01-04T23:37:20Z jasom: either way the keyword pairs you have in putfile need to be indented by at least one more
2016-01-04T23:37:56Z AJavaIdiot: much appreciated
2016-01-04T23:38:07Z jasom: there is a decent standalone lisp source-code formatter somewhere... let me check
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2016-01-04T23:38:30Z AJavaIdiot: I'd be thankful if you linked me to it
2016-01-04T23:38:40Z jasom: AJavaIdiot: looking now
2016-01-04T23:38:44Z AJavaIdiot: ty
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2016-01-04T23:40:41Z jasom: AJavaIdiot: here's one https://web.archive.org/web/20111108151416/http://evalwhen.com/scmindent/lispindent.lisp
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2016-01-04T23:42:26Z jasom: http://ds26gte.github.io/scmindent/index.html <-- same program but not from the internet archive
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2016-01-04T23:43:06Z AJavaIdiot: the last one gives me a 404
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2016-01-04T23:43:18Z AJavaIdiot: but the code from web archive works too
2016-01-04T23:43:19Z AJavaIdiot: thanks jasom
2016-01-04T23:43:30Z jasom: https://github.com/ds26gte/scmindent
2016-01-04T23:43:38Z jasom: bah, I mis-copied
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2016-01-04T23:44:12Z jasom: C-L in chrome highlights but does not move to the primary selection; occasionally confuses me
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2016-01-04T23:44:47Z AJavaIdiot: it's ok, no harm done :D
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2016-01-04T23:47:16Z jasom: it's not as nice as what slime does, because slime can read the argument lists of your macros and be smarter
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2016-01-04T23:47:38Z jasom: but it is better than nothing (and you can manually add names of macros that you want treated differently to the lispwords file
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2016-01-05T00:45:07Z isoraqathedh: Hm, there seems to be no library for working with Exiftool.
2016-01-05T00:46:24Z jasom: uiop:run-program :P
2016-01-05T00:47:43Z isoraqathedh: But then I'll have to paaaarse ooooutpuuut.
2016-01-05T00:47:46Z isoraqathedh: (Oh well, that'll do.)
2016-01-05T00:50:58Z nyef: Parse the EXIF data directly instead of using a tool?
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2016-01-05T00:59:31Z je4i: http://www.xach.com/lisp/zpb-exif/
2016-01-05T01:09:39Z isoraqathedh: Eh, I tried that, it didn't pick it up. Apparently `exiftool` stores the metadata as an RDF at the end (?) of the file.
2016-01-05T01:09:54Z isoraqathedh: And of course the documentation of cl-rdfxml is sparse.
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2016-01-05T04:17:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-01-05T04:22:44Z drmeister: Hi beach - happy New Year.
2016-01-05T04:22:57Z beach: Thanks!  You too!
2016-01-05T04:23:00Z beach: Any resolutions?
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2016-01-05T04:24:18Z drmeister: No, I just have drives.
2016-01-05T04:24:24Z akkad: getting this in ccl 'Error: File #P"/var/log/hosts/usr/bin/crontab.log" does not exist.' yet my (handler-case (progn ,@body) (end-of-file () (sleep 1)) ((or stream-error file-error) (condition) (format t "We got file-error: ~A~%" condition)) does not seem to catch it properly and prevent debugger entry
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2016-01-05T04:31:46Z Bicyclidine: guess it's not a file-error, then.
2016-01-05T04:32:27Z akkad: is there a way in the debugger to get the exact condition that triggered it?
2016-01-05T04:33:01Z Bicyclidine: yeah, but you can just do (handler-case whatever (t (c) c))
2016-01-05T04:33:18Z Bicyclidine: i don't get that error on opening a nonexistent file, incidentally
2016-01-05T04:34:12Z akkad: ccl:simple-file-error maybe?
2016-01-05T04:34:22Z akkad: I think it's dir permissions
2016-01-05T04:34:30Z akkad: sbcl just ignores this. cl-fad:walk-directory
2016-01-05T04:35:14Z Bicyclidine: simple-file-error is a subclass of file-error
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2016-01-05T04:39:19Z akkad: k
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2016-01-05T04:43:31Z drmeister: beach: Do you have any recommendations for a good book on writing a Lisp interpreter?
2016-01-05T04:44:33Z trinitr0n: drmeister: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0694003611/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451969039&sr=8-1
2016-01-05T04:44:39Z beach: The only one I can think of at this time would be LiSP.  Maybe also Allen's book "Anatomy of Lisp".
2016-01-05T04:46:24Z beach: PAIP has a few chapters on interpreting/compiling Lisp as well.
2016-01-05T04:47:21Z beach: drmeister: What distinguishing features do you want your interpreter to have?
2016-01-05T04:48:14Z drmeister: PAIP?
2016-01-05T04:48:23Z beach: minion: Please tell drmeister about PAIP.
2016-01-05T04:48:24Z minion: drmeister: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming
2016-01-05T04:48:31Z beach: By Peter Norvig.
2016-01-05T04:49:05Z beach: Do you want it to be small?  Have fast "compilation"?  Have fast execution?  Something else?
2016-01-05T04:49:52Z drmeister: I want it to be fast and I want to implement it in C++.
2016-01-05T04:49:53Z beach: Or maybe you are just doing this as a programming exercise?
2016-01-05T04:50:11Z beach: Fast compilation or fast execution?
2016-01-05T04:50:27Z beach: There is always some "compilation" involved.
2016-01-05T04:51:11Z drmeister: A tradeoff of both.   It's purpose is to replace my S-expression walker and bclasp.
2016-01-05T04:51:23Z drmeister: Its - (sigh)
2016-01-05T04:51:39Z beach: And what is wrong with what you have?
2016-01-05T04:51:54Z drmeister: Slow
2016-01-05T04:54:25Z beach: If you want fast execution, and you can't generate native code, then I think a bytecode interpreter is the best alternative.  Is there any reason you don't want a compiler that generates native code?
2016-01-05T04:54:39Z drmeister: There, I just ordered a used copy of Anatomy of Lisp.
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2016-01-05T04:54:56Z beach: Oh, it's still in print?  Amazing.
2016-01-05T04:55:08Z beach: In many ways, it is easier to understand than LiSP.
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2016-01-05T04:59:56Z drmeister: I could generate LLVM-IR - so I could generate native code or a byte-code interpreter.  I'll decide later.
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2016-01-05T05:15:58Z nyef: I found something interesting not so long ago: There are some CPU simulators out there that operate by translating the target CPU instruction set to bytecode, then either interpreting the bytecode or translating it further to host machine code.
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2016-01-05T05:17:02Z beach: Interesting.
2016-01-05T05:17:48Z beach: It reminds me of the technology that Digital Equipment developed in order to translate VAX code to Alpha code.
2016-01-05T05:17:56Z nyef: An example of the bytecode interpreter approach would be GXemul. An example of the bytecode-as-intermediate-translation approach would be QEMU.
2016-01-05T05:18:00Z beach: That was some amazing research.
2016-01-05T05:18:17Z nyef: Ooh. Link?
2016-01-05T05:18:36Z beach: Not sure about a link.  It was published in many journals and conferences.
2016-01-05T05:18:42Z beach: ... at least as I recall.
2016-01-05T05:19:30Z nyef: Hrm... Okay, so I'll just have to do some digging myself then.
2016-01-05T05:19:35Z beach: I can give you the main points as I remember them...
2016-01-05T05:19:42Z H4ns: should not be hard, it was rather well discussed back then
2016-01-05T05:20:01Z beach: Yeah, OK, fair enough.
2016-01-05T05:22:31Z beach: nyef: Googling "translating VAX to Alpha Digital Equipement" gave some useful links.
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2016-01-05T05:23:43Z nyef: Thanks. That was pretty much the keyword set that I was going to start with. (-:
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2016-01-05T05:25:13Z H4ns: the dec technical journal vol 4 no 4 has the "binary translation" article
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2016-01-05T05:44:29Z beach: Short progress report on Cluffer: I have near 100% coverage on the tests of the edit protocol.  I am making small modifications to the update protocol, and after that I will write the tests for that as well.  Documentation of the client protocols is almost done.  I have yet to write documentation for maintainers and creators of new implementations of the client protocols.
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2016-01-05T05:45:27Z beach: And I have yet to write an article about Cluffer to submit to ELS. :)
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2016-01-05T06:07:09Z nyef: Hunh. Multi-block machine idiom detection. Neat.
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2016-01-05T06:13:48Z nyef: Okay, I kindof see how to make that happen.
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2016-01-05T06:18:24Z beach: nyef: Is this VAX->Alpha?  Neat stuff, huh?
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2016-01-05T06:20:16Z nyef: That's actually from the MIPS->Alpha one, but yeah.
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2016-01-05T06:20:48Z beach: The technique invented by the DEC people is not specific to VAX.
2016-01-05T06:22:36Z nyef: It's fairly obvious how it would work, just from the description, it checks for a particular sort of flow graph, where there's a condition leading to a consequent and possibly an alternate, and the consequent (and alternate, if present) are simple moves, and it generates a predicated move instead of the branches.
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2016-01-05T06:23:44Z beach: Oh, I guess I didn't know about that aspect.
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2016-01-05T06:24:48Z akkad: Ober: https://gist.github.com/88b0a6a271263ad39773 that look clean enough?
2016-01-05T06:25:10Z akkad: rather it does.
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2016-01-05T06:40:15Z loke: akkad: You can write that as (< 0 diff seconds-ago)
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2016-01-05T09:08:40Z BRODUS: how can I access the slots of a class from within a common lisp object
2016-01-05T09:09:00Z BRODUS: s/class/instance
2016-01-05T09:09:04Z synchromesh: BRODUS: clhs slot-value
2016-01-05T09:09:11Z synchromesh: clhs slot-value
2016-01-05T09:09:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm
2016-01-05T09:09:19Z BRODUS: thanks
2016-01-05T09:09:23Z synchromesh: NP
2016-01-05T09:10:36Z yvm: Why CFFI creates class with no slots for translating cstruct?
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2016-01-05T09:15:07Z BRODUS: synchromesh: Oh I think I wasn't clear.  I'm creating an object using make-instance, some of the slots define functions that need to reference other functions within the instance.  I guess I'm looking for the common lisp equivalent of 'this' or 'self'
2016-01-05T09:17:23Z synchromesh: BRODUS: CLOS is based around generic functions rather than "class methods" as such, so none of the generic function parameters is priviledged as "this" (although in practice the first parameter often is). See Siebel for more background: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html
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2016-01-05T09:24:47Z loke: BRODUS: slots don't define functions. Exactly what is it you're doing?
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2016-01-05T09:25:57Z synchromesh: BRODUS: Usually you end up doing that sort of self-referential initialisation in the INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AROUND method.
2016-01-05T09:27:30Z loke: synchromesh: Umm, how and when? (I use a lot of CLOS, and I have used :around methods on initialize-instance maybe twice, ever)
2016-01-05T09:27:31Z BRODUS: loke: why not? they can hold a reference to a function no?
2016-01-05T09:27:48Z loke: BRODUS: They can, but generally don't.
2016-01-05T09:28:27Z loke: BRODUS: I think you might not understand yet how methods work in CLOS, and you try to assign functions to a class.
2016-01-05T09:29:31Z synchromesh: loke: Sorry, I meant to say :AFTER not :AROUND.
2016-01-05T09:29:48Z loke: synchromesh: Ah yes. Then it makes sense.
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2016-01-05T09:30:08Z synchromesh: loke: Not enough coffee yet.
2016-01-05T09:30:22Z loke: You can do some pretty "interesting" stuff with :around methods on it though :-)
2016-01-05T09:31:27Z BRODUS: well, thanks for the help, sounds like i have some reading to do
2016-01-05T09:31:46Z loke: synchromesh: I found my ;around method on initialzie-instance:
2016-01-05T09:31:48Z loke: synchromesh: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/metaclasses.lisp#L144
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2016-01-05T09:32:35Z loke: BRODUS: I presume you have Java or C++ experience. The key thing to remember is that methods are not tied to a class, but are standalone. This standalone concept is called "generic function".
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2016-01-05T09:33:14Z loke: BRODUS: A generic function can have many concrete implementations. Each implementation is called a "method" of the generic function.
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2016-01-05T09:33:53Z splittist: unless the methods are combined, or enhanced with :around et al
2016-01-05T09:34:14Z loke: splittist: Of course, but let's not rush ahead too quickly :-)
2016-01-05T09:34:30Z splittist: Indeed (:
2016-01-05T09:35:51Z loke: Seems like BRODUS is out reading something now, anyway :-)
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2016-01-05T09:45:20Z splittist: I wonder if beach actually uses all the tex packages listed at the beginning of Cluffer.tex...
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2016-01-05T10:54:38Z splittist: beach: line 42 chap-supplied-implementations.tex : 'standard' should be 'simple'.
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2016-01-05T11:08:27Z jackdaniel reads about SRL (semantic role labeling) and sees sexps everywhere \o/
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2016-01-05T12:23:16Z splittist: beach: you're welcome (:
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2016-01-05T14:31:26Z splittist: clhs unwind-protect
2016-01-05T14:31:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_unwind.htm
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2016-01-05T15:20:27Z clop: is there a better way to manipulate the environment in cmucl than using *environment-list*?  I just want a setenv/getenv that actually works (manipulating the *environment-list* doesn't seem to affect the actual environment for foreign code)
2016-01-05T15:20:59Z loke`: clop: Out of curiousity, why are you using CMUCL?
2016-01-05T15:22:21Z clop: loke, i don't use it myself, but ACL2 can run on it... I'm maintaining ACL2's connection to Quicklisp
2016-01-05T15:22:32Z loke`: clop: I see.
2016-01-05T15:23:05Z loke`: clop: To be honest, I don't know anything about CMUCL. But, what mechanism are you using to run the external programme?
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2016-01-05T15:24:22Z clop: i don't actually know, something in the asdf system seems to be querying the environment instead of *environment-list*
2016-01-05T15:24:48Z loke`: clop: What part of the environment (i.e. which variable) is queried?
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2016-01-05T15:25:16Z d00der: Anyone get their hands on Common Lisp Recipes yet?
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2016-01-05T15:25:57Z splittist: d00der: virtual hands on the PDF. Just finished reading about the pretty printer, I think.
2016-01-05T15:26:09Z d00der: Nice. How is it?
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2016-01-05T15:26:46Z splittist: Very good. Not many typos, a nice style, and an interesting range of topics. Of course, the second half might be rubbish (:
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2016-01-05T15:27:32Z d00der: Haha. Good to hear. I've got a couple projects in mind and was going to go with C but am thinking to impulse buy it and do them in CL
2016-01-05T15:27:37Z loke`: d00der: I ordered it on paper
2016-01-05T15:27:52Z loke`: Paper version was only 10 dollors cheaper than paper, so why not?
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2016-01-05T15:28:36Z d00der: Yeah I always prefer paper.. But I'm weird that way..
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2016-01-05T15:29:35Z splittist: I'll probably get the paper version, too. It's not like I'm going to go broke buying newly published lisp books.
2016-01-05T15:29:55Z loke`: I don't prefer paper, but this one is an exception. Three reasons: 1) I partly buy this is a gesture of support for the CL community. 2) This is not a novel that I'll read from start to finish, but rather casually browse during breakfast. 3) The digital version was only slightly cheaper than the paper one.
2016-01-05T15:30:03Z d00der: Exactly.. Feels like forever ago I bought Practical Common Lisp
2016-01-05T15:30:57Z loke`: d00der: PCL and QL was what got me back into Lisp a few years ago. Now I rarely use anything else.
2016-01-05T15:31:31Z synchromesh also plans to buy the dead tree edition
2016-01-05T15:31:32Z d00der: I've been away from CL for a long time. But I've been playing around with it again lately. Lots of great new libraries since then. And quicklisp is a godsend...
2016-01-05T15:32:18Z d00der: I had sbcl running caveman2 in like 5 minutes. eight years ago getting a library going was a nightmare
2016-01-05T15:32:21Z loke`: And without CL, my company would have had to use Lync... I'd never have persevered in building Potato in anything else. :-)
2016-01-05T15:32:22Z loke`: http://potato.dhsdevelopments.com/
2016-01-05T15:32:37Z loke`: I mean https://github.com/cicakhq/potato
2016-01-05T15:33:04Z d00der: loke`: cool, I'll check it out
2016-01-05T15:36:21Z synchromesh: Do any Lispers here have a considered opinion on Go (the language, not the game)?
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2016-01-05T15:37:29Z loke`: synchromesh: I don't think there is a generic "lispers opinion" on it.
2016-01-05T15:37:31Z jackdaniel: someone claimed some time ago that he hates it
2016-01-05T15:37:38Z loke`: I have mine, as im sure others have too.
2016-01-05T15:37:43Z jackdaniel: but I like a game :)
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2016-01-05T15:38:01Z dwchandler: I think Go is neither horrible nor great, for that type of language
2016-01-05T15:38:06Z Zhivago: I'm not particularly impressed by the language, but it has great tooling.
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2016-01-05T15:38:28Z dwchandler: It's a bit disappointing Go didn't go full actor model
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2016-01-05T15:39:30Z Zhivago: By that, do you mean rather erlang style processes?
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2016-01-05T15:39:54Z dwchandler: I have a friend who writes go, and sometimes pastes code he's trying to debug. I am surprised at the amount of scaffolding, given it's a "modern" language.
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2016-01-05T15:40:43Z dwchandler: Zhivago: Well, erlang I guess, but other langs use actor model also. Message passing to share stuff.
2016-01-05T15:41:29Z Zhivago: Well, they do that via channels -- I'm guessing you'd rather they had boundaries to pointers?
2016-01-05T15:41:38Z dwchandler: Go's channels aren't quite there, and they are single-type channels, which can be a bit of a pain
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2016-01-05T15:42:48Z dwchandler: But I think Go fills a certain niche fairly well. I don't hate it.
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2016-01-05T15:44:33Z synchromesh: Cheers folks!
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2016-01-05T15:45:16Z dwchandler: Something I love about Go: people who love mainstream OO style exceptions get really upset and bitchy :-)
2016-01-05T15:45:21Z loke`: It seems like people have the same opinion about Go as I do. So perhaps there is a general Lispers opinion on it?
2016-01-05T15:45:54Z loke`: dwchandler: Yet you do Common Lisp, which has exacactly that type of error handling?
2016-01-05T15:46:14Z dlowe: signals are a lot more awesome than exceptions
2016-01-05T15:46:25Z dwchandler: I wouldn't say that. Conditions are like exceptions that someone thought about first ;-)
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2016-01-05T15:50:12Z reb`: I've written a fair amount of Go code.  It's not terrible.  I think I perfer it to Java.  Lots of error checking code, some boilerplate, etc.
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2016-01-05T15:51:21Z z0d: you prefer it to Java? that's not saying much... <-:
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2016-01-05T15:53:42Z synchromesh: I've managed to get ABCL to start up on Google App Engine, but the cold-start time for servlets is ~50s. Apparently Go apps can start in ~300ms, so I'm forced to consider it.
2016-01-05T15:54:33Z dwchandler: That's actually fifty SECONDS?! Wow.
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2016-01-05T15:56:19Z synchromesh: As part of a general philosophical question - how much work/time can/should I put into being able to use Lisp (c.f. ParenScript) vs. just using those other languages (e.g. SCSS, XSLT) or a better-suited language to the environment (e.g. Go)? Time being money and all that.
2016-01-05T15:57:22Z White_Flame: I'd say it depends on how much future you have with it
2016-01-05T15:57:34Z White_Flame: if it's a one off that won't be maintained, meh, do it in whatever
2016-01-05T15:57:41Z synchromesh: dwchandler: Yes, it's not a great start. There are some optimisations I can try, but it's never going to be great. Unless I can prune e.g. the compiler, unused library code etc.
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2016-01-05T15:57:58Z White_Flame: If it's something you're going to be living with & modifying, there's up-front costs with long-tail benefits not just to you but to the open source upstream
2016-01-05T15:58:30Z synchromesh: White_Flame: I'd like to use it to build an empire of highly-automated, low-maintenance lucrative web apps, so it's definitely the former.
2016-01-05T15:58:59Z synchromesh: White_Flame: (sorry, the latter)
2016-01-05T15:59:29Z White_Flame: I do find that I've gotten the most cross-project code reuse out of Lisp than other languages
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2016-01-05T15:59:52Z White_Flame: so that's certainly worth considering if you're going to have a bunch of independent projects
2016-01-05T16:00:12Z synchromesh: That's the attraction - in principle one's Lisp DSLs can compile to web apps, native apps, desktop apps etc.
2016-01-05T16:00:37Z White_Flame: you mean like this? http://ceramic.github.io/ ;)
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2016-01-05T16:01:17Z synchromesh: But App Engine is a fairly constrained environment so I'm not sure whether I'll get those benefits particularly.
2016-01-05T16:01:32Z synchromesh: Yes, I've seen Ceramic, it looks very nice.
2016-01-05T16:02:29Z synchromesh: Which is a good point - perhaps App Engine is too Procrustean and I should just go with something in a Docker (or Google Cloud) container instead.
2016-01-05T16:02:31Z dwchandler: synchromesh: have you looked at alternatives to app engine? why pick that? not saying you've made a bad choice, but wondering...
2016-01-05T16:02:42Z dwchandler: Ahh, there you go :)
2016-01-05T16:03:13Z Zhivago: App Engine design is pretty much dominated by the database they provide.
2016-01-05T16:03:14Z dwchandler: explore your options :)
2016-01-05T16:03:23Z Zhivago: See if it is a good fit to your use-cases first.
2016-01-05T16:03:56Z synchromesh: dwchandler: The deal as I imagined it was "I jump through your design/architucture hoops and you take care of all the scaling & other admin" but this initial trouble with cold-start times suggests that deal might be off.
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2016-01-05T16:05:27Z dlowe: synchromesh: I think you're way over-designing for something that doesn't exist yet. A single host on the internet will easily handle tens of thousands of users in whatever language.
2016-01-05T16:05:46Z synchromesh: dlowe: I think you're right there.
2016-01-05T16:06:13Z dlowe: synchromesh: just write your thing in whatever will get it done fastest (I like CL) and solve the problems as they come
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2016-01-05T16:06:44Z dwchandler: also depends on the kind of "apps" you want
2016-01-05T16:07:53Z dwchandler: for client-side heavy (javascript), the server just serves stuff and can handle tons of clients
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2016-01-05T16:11:37Z rpg: I've found a few oddities in SLIME's fontification:  places where it seems to incorrectly characterize arguments as excess when they are not. If I was to pastebin a code snippet, could someone please verify that this is SLIME and not some pathology of my emacs configuration?
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2016-01-05T16:12:36Z synchromesh: Yes, I see your point(s). I don't really want to have to administer Linux server instances in the cloud (I run my own Gentoo box in the garage, but it's not my core competency) but I should probably look at running things in containers.
2016-01-05T16:13:06Z rpg: http://pastebin.com/FdX1svKR
2016-01-05T16:15:17Z synchromesh: rpg: Not sure what you mean by "incorrectly characterize arguments as excess".
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2016-01-05T16:16:01Z rpg: for me, SLIME highlights the (required) final argument to find-if in the pastebin snippet in bright red; which I believe means that SLIME thinks that argument should not be there.
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2016-01-05T16:16:52Z synchromesh: rpg: Then you have enabled SLIME fontification that I'm unaware of... I don't see anything like that.
2016-01-05T16:17:29Z rpg: synchromesh: thank you! that's what I needed to know. I don't have a good way to test "vanilla SLIME," so if you don't see this, it's probably an error in my configuration.
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2016-01-05T16:19:39Z loke`: rpg: that highlight happens for me too
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2016-01-05T16:20:05Z loke`: rpg: It always does that when you have a symbol following on the same line as the end of a multi-line list
2016-01-05T16:20:19Z loke`: rpg: put a newline before hypo...
2016-01-05T16:20:42Z rpg: loke`: thanks! that was really confusing me.
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2016-01-05T16:22:09Z loke`: I'm not sure where that highlight comes from, but I like it. It helps me notice when I accidentally put stuff there (which can easily be mistaken to be part of the list)
2016-01-05T16:22:15Z loke`: I think it's triggered by paredit
2016-01-05T16:22:26Z rpg: One more highlighting question: seems like anything starting by "check" gets highlighted in red.
2016-01-05T16:22:41Z rpg: loke`: It's not paredit; I'm not using it.
2016-01-05T16:22:54Z loke`: OK
2016-01-05T16:23:08Z loke`: Well, it's not from slime-highlight, because it had it before i used it.
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2016-01-05T16:26:57Z rpg: maybe slime-fontifying-fu? that comes with slime-fancy.
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2016-01-05T16:27:44Z splittist: rpg: it's not a standard emacsy thing, like TODO ?
2016-01-05T16:27:59Z rpg: splittist: Honestly, no idea.
2016-01-05T16:28:19Z rpg: splittist: I ought to be able to see if it happens in emacs-lisp mode....
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2016-01-05T16:29:17Z rpg: splittist: Yes, it does happen in emacs-lisp mode. too -- so it's not a SLIME thing.
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2016-01-05T16:33:12Z splittist: beach: should cluffer:line-number accept a cursor?
2016-01-05T16:37:46Z drmeister: If two packages export symbols with the same name A:FOO B:FOO and package C wants to use both packages A and B - what is the best way to do this?
2016-01-05T16:38:11Z drmeister: Lets say I want C to inherit A:FOO and not B:FOO.
2016-01-05T16:38:29Z drmeister: Do I shadow-import A:FOO and then have C use A and B?
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2016-01-05T16:45:05Z je4i: yes shadowing-import as edi explains on p 14 of cl-recipes
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2016-01-05T16:56:38Z flip214: how can I get the stream associated with a hunchentoot request? I'd like to resize the output buffer; strace shows 4KiB, which is too small for my purposes.
2016-01-05T16:58:19Z rpg: Another SLIME question: it seems like SLIME pervasively puts default values into the prompt line, instead of using emacs defaulting capabilities. Anyone know why that decision was made?
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2016-01-05T16:58:51Z rpg: It has the somewhat undesirable consequence of making us delete the default value before supplying an alternate.
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2016-01-05T17:00:38Z je4i: flip214: hunchentoot:request has a slot content-stream. Is that what you are looking for?
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2016-01-05T17:02:03Z flip214: je4i: probably... need to find out how to resize without destroying eventual contents, though. thanks!
2016-01-05T17:02:07Z flip214: (defmethod initialize-connection-stream ((acceptor acceptor) stream)
2016-01-05T17:02:09Z flip214: is what I just found
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2016-01-05T17:06:26Z flip214: je4i: A stream from which the request
2016-01-05T17:06:27Z flip214: body can be read if there is one.
2016-01-05T17:06:32Z flip214: ie. post data.
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2016-01-05T17:08:15Z je4i: there is also get-post-data (&key (request *request*) want-stream (already-read 0))
2016-01-05T17:08:15Z je4i:   "Reads the request body from the stream and stores the raw contents
2016-01-05T17:08:15Z je4i: \(as an array of octets) in the corresponding slot of the REQUEST
2016-01-05T17:08:15Z je4i: object.  Returns just the stream if WANT-STREAM is true.  If there's a
2016-01-05T17:08:18Z je4i: Content-Length header, it is assumed, that ALREADY-READ octets have
2016-01-05T17:08:21Z je4i: already been read."
2016-01-05T17:09:39Z flip214: I guess I need to use SEND-HEADERS and modify the returned stream
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2016-01-05T17:23:17Z jackdaniel: clhs defstruct
2016-01-05T17:23:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm
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2016-01-05T17:37:18Z pseudo_sue: hey, does anyone know where I might be able to dig up a copy of "Genetic Programming: The Movie" (the vhs tape accompanying Koza's 1992 book on GP in lisp)?
2016-01-05T17:42:25Z warweasle: After a quick look, I think it's a "Stand Alone Complex".
2016-01-05T17:43:20Z pseudo_sue: thanks for taking a look. it seems to have more or less vanished from the surface of the earth, aside from a few $150 copies on amazon
2016-01-05T17:43:59Z warweasle: There is no, and never was an original. But it's existence is not as important as the ideas it suppositly contains.
2016-01-05T17:44:09Z warweasle is just joking. 
2016-01-05T17:44:21Z warweasle: But all I found were circular links.
2016-01-05T17:45:15Z pseudo_sue: lol
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2016-01-05T17:48:45Z yrk: cl+ssl (via zs3) errors on only some GNU machines, but not others... weird. wondering what's the culprit
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2016-01-05T17:49:29Z Bicyclidine: looks like three of koza's four books have dieo tapes, and none of them look very available for download. you probably have to hunt.
2016-01-05T17:49:58Z pseudo_sue: yeah, this looks like a time to refamiliarize myself with interlibrary loan
2016-01-05T17:50:11Z pseudo_sue: it's funny how long it's been since I actually had to hunt for a hard copy of... anything
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2016-01-05T17:53:06Z warweasle: Wow. Something not youtube in this day and age.
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2016-01-05T17:53:28Z pseudo_sue: the mind reels
2016-01-05T17:53:45Z warweasle: Which can mean only one thing: Conspiracy. This video is crucial to the freedom of the world!
2016-01-05T17:53:50Z dwchandler: maybe on vimeo, then
2016-01-05T17:54:22Z pseudo_sue: there's simply no other possibility: it was destroyed by Sarah Connor, in the mid 1990s.
2016-01-05T17:54:40Z warweasle: I'll notify the tin-foil initiative.
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2016-01-05T17:57:35Z pseudo_sue: hey, while we're talking videos, anyone have any suggestions for interesting lisp tutorials? I'm pretty new to the language. I've started following the SICP lectures (which are wonderful), but would be interested in some other practical -- maybe systems-level, or network related -- tutorials/seminars as well
2016-01-05T17:58:03Z pseudo_sue: (anything dealing with GP and lisp, in particular, would be awesome)
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2016-01-05T17:58:33Z pseudo_sue: I know I can comb through youtube for this, but I'd like to hear some favourites.
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2016-01-05T17:58:57Z warweasle: pseudo_sue: There was a series where someone made a ray-tracer in lisp. It helped me understand how emacs/slime/lisp are used together. And then there is "Land of Lisp"
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2016-01-05T17:59:29Z pseudo_sue: nice. emacs+slime is a beautiful environment. It's what I'm using too. I'll google ray-tracer...
2016-01-05T17:59:40Z warweasle: pseudo_sue: It even has a music video: (defmethod test ((this function)) (print "this is a function!"))
2016-01-05T17:59:47Z pseudo_sue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1oMRw04W3E looks like it
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2016-01-05T18:01:28Z warweasle: pseudo_sue: That music video should teach you everything you ever need to know about lisp. Ever.
2016-01-05T18:01:36Z pseudo_sue: I think I've got land of lisp kicking around as a pdf somewhere. I picked up a copy of Realm of Racket, hoping to get one of my kids into it early.
2016-01-05T18:02:34Z pseudo_sue: I don't consider a language elegant unless everything I need to know about it can be compressed into a music video. This is good news.
2016-01-05T18:02:58Z warweasle: pseudo_sue: So lisp and forth, huh?
2016-01-05T18:03:45Z shka: pseudo_sue: you made my day
2016-01-05T18:04:13Z warweasle: That reminds me, I need to finish cl-balance-weasles-on-rake.
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2016-01-05T18:06:59Z splittist: Land of Lisp seems kid-friendly, but uses a fairly obscure style (lots of "(car (assoc (cadr ...") and doesn't create 3D games on a tablet...
2016-01-05T18:07:17Z splittist: Realm of Racket seems to be aimed at sour undergraduates.
2016-01-05T18:07:31Z warweasle: splittist: I'm working on a Unity replacement in lisp. I just need a few days to finish it.
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2016-01-05T18:08:05Z pseudo_sue: shka: :) ; warweasel: yep.
2016-01-05T18:08:43Z warweasle: pseudo_sue: Allow me to introduce #lispgames
2016-01-05T18:08:49Z pseudo_sue: splittist: ha! yeah, I actually only got as far as the mopey kid getting sucked into schemeland...
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2016-01-05T18:09:04Z pseudo_sue: nice. I'll check it out, warweasel.
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2016-01-05T18:09:09Z mordocai likes land of lisp and realm of racket. Is not a sour undergraduate.
2016-01-05T18:11:13Z shka: land of lisp is actually really good book imho
2016-01-05T18:11:28Z shka: examples are entertaining
2016-01-05T18:11:39Z pseudo_sue: oh, I haven't given up on realm of racket yet. or land of lisp (which I was enjoying for a while, until something or other clobbered my schedule)
2016-01-05T18:11:46Z holycow: i agree with shka
2016-01-05T18:12:00Z shka: i really like evolution
2016-01-05T18:12:04Z shka: and dice of doom
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2016-01-05T18:15:41Z holycow: it is a king of challenging book
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2016-01-05T18:15:51Z holycow: it isn't really step by step, it jumps around quite a bit
2016-01-05T18:16:14Z holycow: a lot of the work is in forcing your self to stop and understand what a piece of the code is actually doing ... and if you don't understand it to actually do the work to get it
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2016-01-05T18:16:48Z holycow: a lot of fun though, and the examples are real fun examples so its a great book imo
2016-01-05T18:16:49Z shka: but that's a good thing
2016-01-05T18:16:57Z holycow: i think so yes.
2016-01-05T18:17:17Z shka: nodoby likes to be spoon-feeded
2016-01-05T18:17:35Z mordocai: Well, some people do. They probably aren't lisp programmers though
2016-01-05T18:17:35Z holycow: well it gets boring.  a lot of the other books out there are greate support books for this one
2016-01-05T18:17:58Z holycow: there is one that is really step by step and excellent but holy crap is it boring
2016-01-05T18:17:59Z holycow: :)
2016-01-05T18:19:10Z holycow: mordocai: i agree, you need both types of resources.  my issue has always been incentive to really learn it fully.  land of lisp shows some simple examples and how to get there, you have to dig up the step by step stuff for the difficult bits
2016-01-05T18:19:15Z pseudo_sue: hey, found my land_of_lisp.mobi. this is a good day.
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2016-01-05T18:19:51Z shka: pseudo_sue: enjoy it!
2016-01-05T18:19:52Z pseudo_sue: speaking of which, anyone want a copy?
2016-01-05T18:19:53Z shka: it is fun
2016-01-05T18:19:55Z pseudo_sue: I will.
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2016-01-05T18:21:55Z pseudo_sue: https://itmb.co/m3w5s if anyone wants one. it's in mobi format, for ebook readers
2016-01-05T18:22:44Z warweasle: I'll just have to get mine back from the intern, who I'm fairly certain didn't read any of it.
2016-01-05T18:24:02Z holycow: i lost mine, i have to buy another one
2016-01-05T18:24:24Z mordocai: I have a copy under my bed.
2016-01-05T18:24:37Z mordocai: It protects me from monsters
2016-01-05T18:24:43Z holycow: heh
2016-01-05T18:24:52Z holycow: i just love that he fricking illustrated it
2016-01-05T18:25:09Z holycow: what an amazing way to talk about a language
2016-01-05T18:25:46Z dwchandler: I have a hardcopy, but nice to have ebook too
2016-01-05T18:27:20Z mordocai: Yeah, I have both. I use the hardcopy when I feel like reading in bed and the ebook when I work through examples.
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2016-01-05T18:28:14Z dwchandler: I do it exactly the other way around :D
2016-01-05T18:28:32Z pseudo_sue: I've got a big soft spot for old school text adventures. that's something I remember getting a kick out of w that book.
2016-01-05T18:28:39Z pseudo_sue: a *case insensitive* text adventure too.
2016-01-05T18:29:07Z pseudo_sue: reminds me of when I used to write those things in GWBASIC as a kid
2016-01-05T18:29:53Z mordocai: dwchandler: Dual monitors makes ebook + programming really nice IMHO
2016-01-05T18:30:00Z pseudo_sue is lost in a monochrome haze of nostalgia
2016-01-05T18:30:39Z pseudo_sue: mordocai: yeah, I'm using a setup like that right now, actually.
2016-01-05T18:30:46Z dwchandler: mordocai: sure. I use hardcopy so I'm not tempted to copy/paste code. I learn/remember better when I type it in.
2016-01-05T18:31:14Z warweasle: Does anyone remember the "Micro-Adventures"? They were stories with little programs in them that had something to do with the book.
2016-01-05T18:31:22Z pseudo_sue: same. sometimes I retype copyable code just for the sake of finger exercise/muscle memory
2016-01-05T18:31:42Z pseudo_sue: oh jeez, I remember those, i think. I think we used to get those out of my elementary school library
2016-01-05T18:31:44Z warweasle: I still have a few of them.
2016-01-05T18:31:53Z pseudo_sue: the code was all basic, right?
2016-01-05T18:32:02Z pseudo_sue: I haven't seen those in freaking DECADES
2016-01-05T18:32:10Z warweasle: pseudo_sue: Yes. I loved them.
2016-01-05T18:32:11Z pseudo_sue: do you know where to find any?
2016-01-05T18:32:59Z warweasle: pseudo_sue: Yes. They're on a shelf in my office.
2016-01-05T18:33:11Z pseudo_sue: right where I least expected them...
2016-01-05T18:33:30Z pseudo_sue: i wonder if any have been scanned, out there in cyberspace...
2016-01-05T18:34:04Z pseudo_sue: aw bummer. thought I found a whole website, and it was some dude's travel blog...
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2016-01-05T18:34:29Z pseudo_sue: dammit, the travel journalism industry is burying these gems! we must act fast.
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2016-01-05T18:35:13Z warweasle: pseudo_sue: LOL!
2016-01-05T18:35:36Z pseudo_sue: one penny! http://www.amazon.ca/Big-Freeze-Jean-M-Favors/dp/0590333836/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1452018911&sr=8-5&keywords=%22micro-adventures%22
2016-01-05T18:35:40Z warweasle: I found some on amazon, for pennies.
2016-01-05T18:35:57Z pseudo_sue: let's see if it's not $35 shipping...
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2016-01-05T18:36:22Z holycow: heh
2016-01-05T18:36:28Z pseudo_sue: $6.49 shipping. i can live with that
2016-01-05T18:36:36Z warweasle: pseudo_sue: It's not on prime.
2016-01-05T18:38:06Z warweasle: You should see if one seller has them all. It will only cost 7 cents more.
2016-01-05T18:38:18Z pseudo_sue: Big Freeze, Spellbonud & Time Trap. Yeah, but that makes them an unexpected surprise, in 4-6 weeks' time
2016-01-05T18:38:23Z pseudo_sue: good point
2016-01-05T18:39:06Z pseudo_sue: was the code in these for GWBASIC or Commodore BASIC? Did it matter? it's been a while
2016-01-05T18:39:47Z pseudo_sue: Irssi: #gwbasic: Total of 1 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 0  normal"
2016-01-05T18:39:56Z pseudo_sue: all quiet on the basic front
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2016-01-05T18:41:31Z warweasle: pseudo_sue: It's not GW-BASIC. That's what I had and they didn't work.
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2016-01-05T18:42:03Z warweasle: pseudo_sue: Well, some of them didn't.
2016-01-05T18:42:27Z pseudo_sue: wouldn't be hard to find an emulator for whatever it uses, these days
2016-01-05T18:42:53Z pseudo_sue: probably commodore, would be my guess. I have an old machine. it'd be fun to give it something to do.
2016-01-05T18:43:51Z mordocai: dwchandler: Oh yeah, as far as typing stuff vs copy and paste. I broke myself of copy and pasting a long ago when teaching myself how to program. I can't remember the last time I copy and pasted something from a book I was learning from rather than typing it.
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2016-01-05T22:31:07Z akkad: is there a way at an assert/break prompt to get the name of the condition that triggered it?
2016-01-05T22:31:13Z akkad: ccl specically
2016-01-05T22:33:18Z Bicyclidine: in sldb, it's C
2016-01-05T22:33:32Z prxq: akkad: if you are using slime, that information should be directly visible in the debug buffer
2016-01-05T22:33:44Z akkad: remote binary, no slime
2016-01-05T22:33:54Z Bicyclidine: ah, let's see...
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2016-01-05T22:35:11Z Bicyclidine: i don't actually see it. but you can always do (handler-case offending-form (t (c) c)) to get a hold of the object.
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2016-01-05T22:53:23Z akkad: t? not familiar with that
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2016-01-05T22:55:02Z Bicyclidine: it just evaluates the offending-form, and if a condition of type t (i.e. any error) is signaled, it executes ((lambda (c) c) that-condition).
2016-01-05T22:55:16Z Bicyclidine: and returns that, instead of going to the debugger or whatnot.
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2016-01-06T01:38:53Z akkad: oh true. derp. thanks.
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2016-01-06T02:09:18Z Jonsky: Out of curiosity, I asked Lisp to calculate (factorial 10000)
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2016-01-06T02:09:36Z Jonsky: It gave me the answer within 2 sec
2016-01-06T02:09:39Z Jonsky: Crazy
2016-01-06T02:12:33Z resttime: Out of curiosity, I asked Lisp to calculate (factorial 10000) and I got [Condition of type UNDEFINED-FUNCTION] instantly :(
2016-01-06T02:13:48Z Zhivago: jonsky: Welcome to indefinite precision integer support.
2016-01-06T02:13:57Z Zhivago: Although you'll find many other languages support it also.
2016-01-06T02:14:11Z Jonsky: I just watched the number flush my screen and I felt very happy....
2016-01-06T02:16:25Z Jonsky: resttime: I feel sorry for your repl...
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2016-01-06T02:24:12Z resttime: TCO factorial 0.058 seconds: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304611
2016-01-06T02:24:46Z Bicyclidine: yeah, the slow part is printing it out
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2016-01-06T02:29:56Z Jonsky: Hmmm I never thought of writing it this way, so neat
2016-01-06T02:30:29Z Jonsky: I just used the textbook example and made a (labels) LOL
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2016-01-06T02:33:21Z Bicyclidine: (* (sqrt (* 2 pi n)) (expt (/ n (exp 1)) n)) is good enough for anyone, i say
2016-01-06T02:34:26Z resttime: CPS factorial: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304611#1
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2016-01-06T02:36:57Z resttime: Wait I think I did this before
2016-01-06T02:37:34Z resttime: http://paste.lisp.org/display/159750#1
2016-01-06T02:38:03Z resttime: Hehehe found it in some IRC logs.
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2016-01-06T03:14:41Z incal: I'm on Elisp: how does one use `cl-remove' or `cl-delete' (or the equivalent) *with strings*? they don't catch the equivalents what I can see but I get it to work with numbers. do they use some predicate that doesn't play with strings?
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2016-01-06T03:15:35Z incal: I also get it to work with `cl-remove-if' and then a lambda with `string=' to do it manually
2016-01-06T03:16:24Z Bicyclidine: you might be better off in an emacs channel, but yes, i imagine the default predicate doesn't work well with strings.
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2016-01-06T03:16:33Z Bicyclidine: if those functions are like the cl ones, you'd use :test #'string=
2016-01-06T03:16:40Z Bicyclidine: well, for remove anyway.
2016-01-06T03:16:51Z incal: thx, brb
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2016-01-06T03:18:48Z incal: yes, that works, thanks man
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2016-01-06T03:22:32Z warweasle`: Question about allocating resources. If I (load "...") a lisp file, and it runs commands and stores the result, but doesn't wrap them in a function: will it store all the data it no longer needs?
2016-01-06T03:23:13Z warweasle`: I'm trying to load 3D assets this way and I don't want to keep an unused copy of the data just because I loaded it somewhere.
2016-01-06T03:23:42Z pillton: LOAD is capable of modifying the global environment.
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2016-01-06T03:25:05Z pillton: Loading is no different to copying and pasting the file in to the REPL.
2016-01-06T03:25:34Z warweasle`: pillton: So it should go away when gc finds the data is not accessible?
2016-01-06T03:25:41Z pillton: Yes.
2016-01-06T03:25:50Z warweasle`: pillton: Aswsome
2016-01-06T03:26:09Z warweasle`: pillton: What if I compile it into a fasl?
2016-01-06T03:26:27Z pillton: FASL == Fast loading.
2016-01-06T03:26:38Z warweasle`: pillton: But no differenece?
2016-01-06T03:26:53Z Bicyclidine: then there are some hard-to-concisely-explain semantic differences, but there's nothing magically GC-immune
2016-01-06T03:27:36Z resttime: If the 3D assets are loaded via CFFI, be careful.
2016-01-06T03:28:37Z Bicyclidine: of course, if you have (defvar *name* [a whole shitload of data here]) then that will still be accessible, and so on
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2016-01-06T03:29:00Z Bicyclidine: if you don't do something to *name*. normal stuff
2016-01-06T03:29:02Z warweasle`: Is there a way to return a value from a load?
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2016-01-06T03:29:36Z Bicyclidine: no. if you need something like that, put it in a variable.
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2016-01-06T03:31:57Z pillton: warweasle`: You are better off implementing something like (load-3d-asset name) then relying on LOAD.
2016-01-06T03:32:19Z Bicyclidine: oh, yeah, if that's what you're doing, definitely don't have your assets be arbitrary lisp files or somethin
2016-01-06T03:33:08Z warweasle`: Bicyclidine: Why not?
2016-01-06T03:33:55Z Bicyclidine: it's not a very efficient encoding, and having your assets perform arbitrary side effects is insecure and confusing
2016-01-06T03:34:16Z warweasle`: Ahh.
2016-01-06T03:34:26Z Bicyclidine: plus you'd have to do something weird-looking to "return a value" as you want to do
2016-01-06T03:34:42Z pillton: And it avoids your question entirely.
2016-01-06T03:35:16Z Bicyclidine: XBM images are C headers, and they killed that format way back in 89~
2016-01-06T03:35:19Z warweasle`: eventually I think I'll use conspack, but I'm just getting stuff working.
2016-01-06T03:36:30Z pillton: I don't think the standard specifies anything about a garbage collector.
2016-01-06T03:36:34Z Bicyclidine: you could do something basic like writing out floats in text and reading them back in, in a fixed format (3 coords and 2 texcoords per line, something like that)
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2016-01-06T03:37:17Z warweasle`: I like the idea that lisp can be used as a dynamic format.
2016-01-06T03:40:18Z pillton: The only issue you have with using the reader is that some lisps have limits on the number of atoms between ( and ).
2016-01-06T03:41:16Z Bicyclidine: i can think of more issues than that
2016-01-06T03:42:00Z pillton: Apart from performance?
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2016-01-06T03:42:49Z Bicyclidine: sure. writing floats in decimal is weird, off the top of my head.
2016-01-06T03:43:31Z warweasle`: Bicyclidine: I'm thinking fasls fix that.
2016-01-06T03:44:00Z Bicyclidine: that particular issue, maybe.
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2016-01-06T04:02:57Z pillton: Isn't this just a representation issue? Doesn't (= x (read-from-string (format nil "~W" x))) hold for all x in number?
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2016-01-06T04:29:21Z Bicyclidine: it seems to, but i didn't think it did. whoops.
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2016-01-06T05:10:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-01-06T06:15:54Z pjb: pillton: it should, but you may have surprises with floating point numbers. Sometimes, it's not roundtrip. But with IEEE, the implementation should be able to provide it.
2016-01-06T06:17:59Z jasom: and there's infinite values and NaN's though those may not be of type number
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2016-01-06T06:28:52Z akkad: hmmm. any easy way to decompile a sbcl generated binary? coworker left without the source to a bin we use
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2016-01-06T06:37:53Z pjb: It's true that CL doesn't specify a syntax for NANs; this could be a simple extension provided by the implementation.
2016-01-06T06:38:15Z pjb: akkad: how funny.
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2016-01-06T07:07:33Z beach: minion: memo for splittist: Yes, it is normal that the line-oriented functions of Cluffer accept a cursor as well.  I systematically define trampoline functions that make a recursive call with the line to which the cursor is attached, or to error if the cursor is detached.
2016-01-06T07:07:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell splittist when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-01-06T07:12:43Z pillton: jasom: I understand that there are infinite values however it is my understanding that only unique values of decode-float are elements of the type float.
2016-01-06T07:13:08Z pillton: G'day beach.
2016-01-06T07:13:38Z beach: Hey pillton.  I wish you a happy new Lisp year.
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2016-01-06T07:14:16Z pillton: beach: Hopefully! I will start the year well.
2016-01-06T07:16:06Z pillton: pjb: Yep.
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2016-01-06T07:17:25Z pillton: beach: Oh. Happy new lisp year to you too.
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2016-01-06T08:23:12Z splittist: my memo, please, minion
2016-01-06T08:23:12Z minion: splittist, memo from beach: Yes, it is normal that the line-oriented functions of Cluffer accept a cursor as well.  I systematically define trampoline functions that make a recursive call with the line to which the cursor is attached, or to error if the cursor is detached.
2016-01-06T08:23:29Z myrkraverk: What would be a non-lisp year?
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2016-01-06T08:25:20Z synchromesh: myrkraverk: Any year before 1958?
2016-01-06T08:25:43Z myrkraverk: possibly, possibly.
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2016-01-06T10:15:44Z [6502]: Hello... what is the result-form optional part of (dotimes ...) good for?
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2016-01-06T10:20:05Z mood: [6502]: It allows you to specify what the (dotimes ...) will return
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2016-01-06T10:21:53Z [6502]: mood: i understand that... but is it used often? dotimes loops a prescribed number of times and cannot introduce extra locals... what can you compute there that can't be done right after the (dotimes ...) form?
2016-01-06T10:23:37Z [6502]: mood: at first sight seems just a method to shuffle around code in confusing ways...
2016-01-06T10:24:15Z mood: I don't think it's used much
2016-01-06T10:24:41Z mood: There are probably use-cases where it would make sense, but I can't currently think of any
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2016-01-06T10:26:28Z [6502]: mood: i can only think to (dotimes (i (compute-count) i) ...)
2016-01-06T10:27:02Z [6502]: mood: but that would have been a perfect default instead of NIL, imo
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2016-01-06T10:27:54Z splittist: [6502]: it could be the default return value if the loop doesn't exit otherwise. It makes more sense when you think of it as a restriction on DO.
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2016-01-06T10:32:05Z [6502]: splittist: ah... (dotimes (i count <retval>) ... (return <otherval>) ...)
2016-01-06T10:32:09Z [6502]: splittist: this makes sense
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2016-01-06T10:33:26Z [6502]: splittist: also makes sense to have dotimes returning NIL by default
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2016-01-06T10:39:44Z [6502]: splittist: it can also used to perform actions only in case the loop completed (like the strange "for ... else" or "while ... else" syntax in Python)
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2016-01-06T10:40:23Z [6502]: thanks... back to coding
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2016-01-06T12:29:33Z Posterdati: hi
2016-01-06T12:29:48Z Posterdati: why opencv was removed from quicklisp repository?
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2016-01-06T12:42:26Z attila_lendvai: Posterdati: can't find any sign of that here: http://blog.quicklisp.org/
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2016-01-06T13:07:54Z Posterdati: attila_lendvai: 2013?
2016-01-06T13:08:10Z Posterdati: attila_lendvai: I remember I installed via quicload
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2016-01-06T14:25:36Z Xach: Posterdati: I could not build it
2016-01-06T14:25:44Z Xach: that is almost the only reason things get removed
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2016-01-06T14:50:06Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: I'm staring at some libffi macroexpansion... it seems to me that it doesn't stick to the same assumptions re cffi:expand-from-foreign
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2016-01-06T14:51:13Z posterdati300: finally they added again clisp in debian repository
2016-01-06T14:51:13Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: I think non-fsbv calls pass in a value-expression that return the value, while in case it's fsbv the expression is one mem-ref away, i.e. only the var from with-foreign-object
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2016-01-06T14:53:57Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: or maybe I'm misunderstanding the cffi api
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2016-01-06T15:20:16Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: I've pushed a failing test
2016-01-06T15:20:47Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: I don't understand, but it's been a while since I looked at the code. I'll take a look at your test.
2016-01-06T15:21:20Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: I'm not completely sure whether it's a bug, or it's an unjust expectation from me, but I think it's the former
2016-01-06T15:22:24Z LiamH: So, libffi works by making a pointer to every argument, then dereferencing it internally.
2016-01-06T15:23:07Z LiamH: So in cffi-libffi, we have to make a pointer to every single argument, even things like doubles and ints.
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2016-01-06T15:23:47Z LiamH: That's the reason for the expand...-indirect function.
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2016-01-06T15:26:13Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: this is dealing with the return-value only. the same applies there?
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2016-01-06T15:34:47Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: Yes. libffi (and of course cffi-libffi) can also handle return-by-value structures.
2016-01-06T15:35:09Z LiamH: This is what I was trying to get at when we had the discussion before about your fix.
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2016-01-06T15:35:38Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: so, my test is not a bug, but a wrong assumption about the CFFI API?
2016-01-06T15:35:39Z LiamH: The on-the-fly acceptance of pointers or values will work only function arguments, not for return values.
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2016-01-06T15:36:08Z LiamH: Sorry, haven't looked at your test yet.
2016-01-06T15:36:21Z LiamH: hold on
2016-01-06T15:37:50Z LiamH: So if you declare it as a structure by value return, it should defreference the pointer and convert it.
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2016-01-06T15:38:31Z attila_lendvai: the return value is an int
2016-01-06T15:40:13Z LiamH: That looks like a bug
2016-01-06T15:40:17Z nzambe: mood: i recently saw use of result-form along the following lines (defmethod foo :around (a baz)(dotimes (x (list in a) (call-next-method))(if no change necessary (return ...))))
2016-01-06T15:41:20Z nzambe: mood: so the around method checked if the actual method foo needed to be called and used the result-form to do so, i thought the idiom was neat
2016-01-06T15:41:36Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: I'll look into it later.
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2016-01-06T15:45:26Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: ok, thanks! it smells like a non-trivial change... but it's not crucial for me, I just wanted to add a type that automatically signals an error, but I can special-case that function with a KLUDGE or something
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2016-01-06T15:46:24Z nzambe: mood: the above was [6502] mixed the names in my going through the logs
2016-01-06T15:47:28Z mood: nzambe: No worries, I'm interested too. I think the idiom you describe makes it hard to see the intent behind the code while reading, though
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2016-01-06T16:02:18Z nzambe: mood: i see what you mean, i had read the description of what had to happen and so expected it but otherwise it would take some puzzling over
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2016-01-06T16:48:38Z kami: Good evening
2016-01-06T16:48:47Z blub: hi kami
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2016-01-06T18:41:13Z drmeister: Hi - in sbcl (1.2.11) on OS/X I have SB-POSIX:FORK and SB-POSIX:GETENV but on Ubuntu (sbcl 1.1.14.debian) I don't.  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to access FORK and GETENV in a portable way (OS/X vs Ubuntu)
2016-01-06T18:41:46Z Xach: drmeister: Is there any way to not use such a very old old old sbcl on ubuntu?
2016-01-06T18:43:14Z drmeister: I guess that's the problem - I installed it with apt-get - I would have thought it would be more up to date.
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2016-01-06T18:44:31Z Xach: It's from 2013
2016-01-06T18:45:06Z flip214: drmeister: $ apt-cache policy sbcl
2016-01-06T18:45:10Z Xach: drmeister: you could use sb-alien, i think, to call those underlying functions directly.
2016-01-06T18:45:14Z flip214: says 2:1.3.1-1 for me.
2016-01-06T18:45:19Z Xach: drmeister: i don't have the exact syntax, though, sorry.
2016-01-06T18:45:21Z flip214: which ubuntu are you using?
2016-01-06T18:45:35Z flip214: drmeister: perhaps sb-unix is better?
2016-01-06T18:45:47Z Xach: sb-unix is not meant for user programs. it is a private package.
2016-01-06T18:45:49Z flip214: "better" as in "has these functions"?
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2016-01-06T18:46:06Z flip214: Xach: and sb-posix isn't?
2016-01-06T18:46:13Z Xach: sb-posix is not private.
2016-01-06T18:46:19Z Xach: it is meant for users
2016-01-06T18:46:53Z flip214: okay...
2016-01-06T18:46:59Z dlowe: perhaps it would be more clear if sb-unix were named %sb-unix or something
2016-01-06T18:47:13Z pjb: On the other hand, you wouldn't dare using "SB-%POSIX".
2016-01-06T18:47:17Z Xach: the first word of the docstring is "private"
2016-01-06T18:47:18Z flip214: ah, "private" not as "compatible", as I mistakenly read. ("sb-" prefix!)
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2016-01-06T18:47:28Z dlowe: because it's not at all obvious when you look at apropos
2016-01-06T18:47:29Z Xach: as is the custom for all private sbcl packages
2016-01-06T18:47:36Z dlowe: you may never get to the docstring
2016-01-06T18:47:39Z PuercoPop: drmeister: use the sbcl from apt-get to compile sbcl from source and then remove the apt-get'ed package before doing make install
2016-01-06T18:47:51Z dlowe: don't even have to remove the package
2016-01-06T18:47:56Z dlowe: /usr/local/bin has priority
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2016-01-06T18:49:01Z pjb: myrkraverk: a lisp year is prefixed. A non-lisp year would be infix.
2016-01-06T18:49:14Z flip214: just add debian unstable as package source, and install from there.
2016-01-06T18:49:17Z myrkraverk: pjb: c;
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2016-01-06T18:52:24Z drmeister: Hmm, I better stick with the default, old sbcl.  This is for a scraper that I wrote in sbcl for the clasp build system.  I don't want to add another dependency for a recent version of sbcl.
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2016-01-06T19:15:07Z pjb: minion: memo for beach: You'll like this: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2874238
2016-01-06T19:15:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-01-06T19:18:38Z flip214: pjb: are you interested in storage solutions?
2016-01-06T19:19:57Z pjb: it's part of a computer system.
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2016-01-06T19:20:17Z pjb: I've at more than ten hard disks on my desk, so you may say yes.
2016-01-06T19:20:23Z pjb: s/at/got/
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2016-01-06T19:22:02Z jasom: I do too, but I think they all add up to less than a single TB
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2016-01-06T19:23:49Z jasom: ah just over a TB, I forgot one of the 2.5" drives was a 250GB one
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2016-01-06T19:25:31Z pjb: True :-) I've got half a dozen 250 GB disks. But then, 2 1TB and 2 2TB in addition to the 10 TB in the computer.
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2016-01-06T19:32:24Z Posterdati: pjb: are you a storage feticist?
2016-01-06T19:32:32Z pjb: Nope.
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2016-01-06T19:33:10Z pjb: Storage space has a tendency to always fill very fast.
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2016-01-06T20:02:18Z Posterdati: pjb: movies and data for your classifier softwares?
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2016-01-06T22:03:13Z mk2: I found a website with patches to make Sbcl work on Android by Stas Boukarev from 2014-05-28. Can I download a binary of SBCL for Android?
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2016-01-06T22:07:05Z lisp686: Anyone with experience in lispbox or can recommend me a better Emac for lisp?
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2016-01-06T22:13:44Z je4i: M-x emacs-version RET → GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin14.5.0, NS apple-appkit-1348.17) of 2015-08-27 on tenten-slave.macports.org
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2016-01-06T22:17:32Z jasom: lisp686: which OS?
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2016-01-06T22:22:37Z jasom: For linux, use whatever is in your package manager for emacs; for OS X, use: http://emacsformacosx.com/ ; for windows I would recommend http://www.iqool.de/lispstick.html though it's starting to get old
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2016-01-06T22:27:42Z je4i: on windows I use GNU Emacs as well
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2016-01-06T22:41:42Z jasom: je4i: the question is *which* gnu emacs :)
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2016-01-06T22:49:06Z je4i: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsForWindows says the 'official' one is here: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/windows/ntemacs.html
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2016-01-06T23:12:49Z kenanb: how should I reference the slots of the class before they are bound, I am trying to add an initialize-instance :before method so I can get the default instance data from the :import argument if it is provided, and let initialize-instance override the arguments provided by the user later
2016-01-06T23:15:04Z kenanb: there is a 'root slot in my project class, and I do (setf (slot-value proj 'root) ...) in my initialize-instance :before method, but somehow it is unbound in the instance unless I explicitly bind it in make-instance
2016-01-06T23:19:30Z je4i: clhs:shared-initialize
2016-01-06T23:20:09Z kenanb: anything I setf inside with-slots work like a charm, but I need to say "if :root is non-nil, set root to :root, otherwise set root to something else" now if I put root in with-slots, it will always reference the slot-value of root, which is not yet bound because this is initialize-instance :before method
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2016-01-06T23:21:11Z kenanb: so I explicitly say (setf (slot-value proj 'root) ...) outside with-slots in order for "root" to reference the value of the keyword argument, but then the binding doesn't happen
2016-01-06T23:21:20Z attila_lendvai: lisp programmers adding me on linkedin on their government name, while interacting with me online on their pseudonyms -- not good.
2016-01-06T23:22:12Z Posterdati: attila_lendvai: I tried to connect with you :)
2016-01-06T23:22:31Z attila_lendvai: posterdati: recently? :)
2016-01-06T23:22:42Z Posterdati: 1 hour ago
2016-01-06T23:23:03Z attila_lendvai: ok, then it's you! gotcha! :)
2016-01-06T23:23:43Z resttime: kenanb: I'm a bit confused at what behaviour you want, would it work with an :after method?
2016-01-06T23:24:20Z Posterdati: attila_lendvai: I was sure about the problem to match my nick with my real life name
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2016-01-06T23:25:32Z attila_lendvai: I do use pesudonyms online when I should. but doing public programming stuff doesn't fall into that category. if for nothing else then for building my reputation.
2016-01-06T23:26:36Z attila_lendvai heads bedwards soon
2016-01-06T23:26:53Z kenanb: resttime: I want to be able to get the value of :root argument of make-instance, which is the initarg or 'root slot
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2016-01-06T23:27:09Z PuercoPop: kenanb: wouldn't :initform suffice? Or in :after initialize-instance?
2016-01-06T23:27:54Z kenanb: maybe I should explicitly add :root to the keyword arglist of initialize-instance :before method if I want to use it?
2016-01-06T23:28:10Z kenanb: even though it is defined as an initarg of a slot
2016-01-06T23:29:28Z PuercoPop: btw is this related to coleslaw content types? I feel you closed the PR a bit prematurely
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2016-01-06T23:29:43Z kenanb: PuercoPop: I should bind the slots to some particular values before the main method of initialize-instance overrides some of it
2016-01-06T23:30:58Z kenanb: PuercoPop: so I am working on an initialize-instance :before method, but I believe my problem is with me not understanding some fundamentals here
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2016-01-06T23:31:35Z kenanb: PuercoPop: initform will not suffice because the initial values are read from a file
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2016-01-06T23:32:28Z kenanb: PuercoPop: nope, this stuff is for a seperate project called fossicker
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2016-01-06T23:33:04Z kenanb: PuercoPop: btw thanks for the memo about plugin implementation, it is interesting indeed
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2016-01-06T23:34:56Z resttime: kenanb: Can I see some source?  All I can think of is that what you're doing should be in an :after method instead at the moment.
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2016-01-06T23:35:26Z PuercoPop: kenanb: couldn't the initform use a special variable that keeps the values read from a file? CLOS initialization is one of the parts I'm least familiar with but afaik initialize-instance :after where user initialization code should go
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2016-01-06T23:38:19Z resttime: What the standard says about initialize-instance is that it is the function when the slots are initialized with the values so trying to access it :before to get the default value won't work it (at least that is my reasoning behind what I believe to be your problem) http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_init_i.htm
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2016-01-06T23:38:38Z resttime: Err by access it, I mean accessing the slot
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2016-01-06T23:39:54Z blub: cant you just do it from the constructor
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2016-01-06T23:42:55Z kenanb: resttime: I was not trying to access slot value, I was trying to set it manually using the initarg, and then let shared-initialize do its own thing regardless
2016-01-06T23:44:05Z kenanb: resttime: but I handled it now, turns out I need to explicitly reference the keyword in keyword arglist of initialize-instance even though I am using the initarg defined in class already
2016-01-06T23:44:57Z kenanb: thanks folks :)
2016-01-06T23:45:31Z kenanb: //msg PuercoPop hey
2016-01-06T23:45:35Z resttime: kenanb: Oh okay, that's cool then.
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2016-01-06T23:46:22Z kenanb: I should use /msg instead of //msg right? :D
2016-01-06T23:47:08Z kenanb: emacs autocomplete fail
2016-01-06T23:47:57Z ieure: //msg use whatever you want
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2016-01-07T00:17:44Z arnaudga: hello
2016-01-07T00:18:55Z arnaudga: I have a 2 dimension array, is it possible to get the entire vector of one dimension in juste one function ?
2016-01-07T00:19:33Z Bicyclidine: you can make a displaced array.
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2016-01-07T00:23:51Z arnaudga: ok, I will investigate, thanks
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2016-01-07T02:49:09Z loke: Good morning lisp!
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2016-01-07T03:00:17Z Kazlock: good morning loke
2016-01-07T03:00:26Z loke: Hello
2016-01-07T03:01:02Z Kazlock: Remember when we were working on the string search function?
2016-01-07T03:01:33Z loke: Yes?
2016-01-07T03:01:51Z Kazlock: I came up with a O(n) procedure that works
2016-01-07T03:02:04Z Kazlock: but I haven't implemented it in CL yet
2016-01-07T03:02:52Z loke: Kazlock: Then you should write a paper on it and become famous in CS
2016-01-07T03:03:43Z Kazlock: loke: yeah right. Its slower than boyer-moore, but it's much simpler
2016-01-07T03:04:03Z Kazlock: https://github.com/ebracho/String-Search/blob/master/StringSearch.c
2016-01-07T03:04:26Z loke: Then it's not O(n) :-)
2016-01-07T03:05:00Z Kazlock: its O(c*n), but my c is bigger than boyer-moore's c
2016-01-07T03:05:16Z loke: boyer-moore in O(n+m)
2016-01-07T03:05:26Z loke: oh wait, it isn't
2016-01-07T03:05:32Z loke: it's O(n*m)
2016-01-07T03:05:41Z Kazlock: it is, the m comes form preprocessing the search pattern
2016-01-07T03:05:50Z Kazlock: but the tradeoff is a constant of < 1 on the m
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2016-01-07T03:05:59Z Kazlock: er the n
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2016-01-07T05:25:31Z caoliver: I have CCL and SBCL lying around.  Is there still a good reason to consider CMUCL?
2016-01-07T05:28:06Z loke: caoliver: No. Not really.
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2016-01-07T05:28:52Z caoliver: Thanks.  I had figured that SBCL had caught up on about everything, and the last time I built CMUCL (late 90s), it was very painful.\
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2016-01-07T05:30:30Z caoliver: Sorry for the noob question.
2016-01-07T05:30:47Z loke: I believe building cmucl is still very painful.
2016-01-07T05:30:51Z pillton: Why wouldn't you test your software on CMUCL?
2016-01-07T05:31:04Z loke: SBCL is very easy, and yes, it's better than cmucl by far, and has been for quite some time.
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2016-01-07T05:32:28Z caoliver: I have a small zsh script that installs sbcl + docs with some non-standard tweaks.  It's pretty trivial by comparison.
2016-01-07T05:32:57Z pillton: CMUCL is as easy as SBCL in my opinion.
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2016-01-07T05:33:19Z caoliver: Maybe now, but it wasn't when I last built it.
2016-01-07T05:33:32Z pillton: I don't build it. I download the releases.
2016-01-07T05:34:36Z caoliver: I tend to like things put in odd places with my particular eccentricities patched in, so I usually wind up building.
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2016-01-07T05:34:59Z pillton: All you have to do with CMUCL is uncompress the release.
2016-01-07T05:35:24Z caoliver: If you like the way it's set up that is.
2016-01-07T05:35:39Z pillton: How do you like it set up?
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2016-01-07T05:36:19Z caoliver: What I mean is that I seldom to default installs of most things that aren't part of the standard Slackware I run.
2016-01-07T05:36:26Z caoliver: seldom DO
2016-01-07T05:36:43Z pillton: That doesn't answer my question.
2016-01-07T05:37:21Z H4ns: pillton: "it cannot be good if i have not built it myself"
2016-01-07T05:37:33Z Zhivago: s/not //
2016-01-07T05:37:37Z caoliver: You want specifics, but I'm saying in general, I don't like many decisions that get compiled into builds, so I build them myself ON PRINCIPLE.
2016-01-07T05:38:05Z pillton: cooliver: Perhaps I'd like your custom set up. I can't reproduce it based on your statements.
2016-01-07T05:39:50Z caoliver: Here's a quick example: With sbcl, for a long time I specifically patched the doc generator to make separated html files since the large one loaded slowly on my computer of the period, but that meant I had to hack the filename generation/
2016-01-07T05:40:50Z caoliver: Another: things used to be in /site rather than /usr/local.  Even now, things are usually built and installed by a special install users, and never root.  Many installers don't like that.
2016-01-07T05:41:45Z caoliver: It's just a way of saying I've got odd shaped feet, and often need special shoes.  ;)
2016-01-07T05:42:21Z Zhivago: Or, perhaps, that you believe you have odd shaped feed. :)
2016-01-07T05:43:12Z caoliver: Some default shoes fit, some don't.  C'est la vie.
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2016-01-07T05:44:48Z caoliver: Bascially the way I do things is aside from some commercial things, I build everything that's not distro or distro patch.
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2016-01-07T05:45:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-01-07T05:45:00Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: You'll like this: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2874238
2016-01-07T05:45:10Z pillton: caoliver: Ok.
2016-01-07T05:45:15Z pillton: G'day beach.
2016-01-07T05:45:23Z H4ns: caoliver: consider cmucl to be commercial.  now you're done.
2016-01-07T05:46:11Z caoliver: I guess I'm trying to ascertain if I'm cutting my nose off to spite my face by simply saying "I don't need it."
2016-01-07T05:46:29Z caoliver: Need being used loosely.
2016-01-07T05:46:34Z H4ns: caoliver: do you test with other commercial implementations?  if not, no need to bother.
2016-01-07T05:46:52Z caoliver: Lisp is more a sketchpad.
2016-01-07T05:47:20Z beach: pjb: Thanks!  Yes, I like it.
2016-01-07T05:47:42Z caoliver: I.e. I've got something that's going to wind up as C++, but I'm coming to grips with the problem, so I want to make a little "lab" is lisp to quickly try things out.
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2016-01-07T05:48:02Z caoliver: s/is lisp/in lisp/
2016-01-07T05:48:27Z H4ns: caoliver: what makes you consider implementations that you don't use if you're doing things just for yourself?
2016-01-07T05:49:09Z caoliver: There might be some nifty extension that might be useful to me.
2016-01-07T05:49:14Z Zhivago: There's an interesting disorder where people believe that they have died.
2016-01-07T05:49:25Z caoliver: I haven't?
2016-01-07T05:50:28Z H4ns: caoliver: if you need long floats, cmucl has you covered
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2016-01-07T05:51:40Z caoliver: I think maxima is the only place I might see high precision floats, and it handles those already/
2016-01-07T05:52:55Z caoliver: I just had run across some noise suggesting that threads are more mature on CMUCL, but the post was a good while back, and I'm not sure it's still true.
2016-01-07T05:54:20Z H4ns: caoliver: not true.  cmucl does not even have threads.  it has cooperative multitasking.
2016-01-07T05:54:43Z caoliver: Again, thanks for the info.
2016-01-07T05:55:28Z caoliver: I'm just trying to cure my ignorance.
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2016-01-07T08:08:40Z KKKTRIPLEK: the problem with niggers is that they expect handouts for something white people and niggers have no involvement in
2016-01-07T08:08:44Z KKKTRIPLEK: white people haven't owned niggers for a very long time
2016-01-07T08:08:53Z KKKTRIPLEK: niggers haven't been slaves nor useful for a very long time
2016-01-07T08:08:57Z KKKTRIPLEK: i'm not trolling just stating the obvious
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2016-01-07T08:09:52Z flip214: H4ns: ^^ thanks a lot.
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2016-01-07T08:19:40Z H4ns: flip214: hu?
2016-01-07T08:24:24Z flip214: H4ns: the troll is already gone again. thank you, anyway!
2016-01-07T08:25:15Z loke: Who was it that maintained closure-html?
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2016-01-07T08:33:23Z H4ns: flip214: i'm not involved in troll removal in this channel, but i'm thankful that we have people who tastefully fill that role.
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2016-01-07T08:34:55Z flip214: okay, will ask felix next - seems to be NL, so european timezone. thank you!
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2016-01-07T10:41:19Z flip214: can anybody tell me how to change hunchentoot's socket stream buffers to a bigger size?
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2016-01-07T10:45:37Z loke: flip214: which buffers are those?
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2016-01-07T10:48:16Z flip214: loke: hunchentoot::*hunchentoot-stream* is reported to be a sb-impl::fd-stream; I found "o-buf" in there...
2016-01-07T10:48:33Z flip214: perhaps I can resize that, but that sounds seriously non-compatible.
2016-01-07T10:49:06Z loke: Hunchentoot uses usocket, and as far as I can tell hunchentoot simply gets the stream from it
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2016-01-07T10:49:27Z loke: it calls usocket:usocket-accept and then that's the stream it's using
2016-01-07T10:50:36Z flip214: ah yes, that's using sb-bsd-sockets:socket-make-stream in the background
2016-01-07T10:50:45Z loke: Yes
2016-01-07T10:50:57Z loke: and it has a keyword, :buffering :full
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2016-01-07T10:51:26Z flip214: but can't set the buffer size....
2016-01-07T10:51:41Z flip214: the default 4K is too small - it makes too many syscalls.
2016-01-07T10:53:31Z splittist: flip214: and your network is so fast this is a problem?
2016-01-07T10:53:56Z flip214: splittist: 4K in a write syscall is a problem, yes.
2016-01-07T10:54:09Z flip214: perhaps my CPUs are just too slow?
2016-01-07T10:54:15Z loke: flip214: I'm looking at fd-stream.lisp and I can't see where the 4k comes from
2016-01-07T10:55:45Z loke: Oh wait. Now I see
2016-01-07T10:56:41Z loke: Interesting. This is a system-wide setting. +bytes-per-buffer+ in fd-stream.lisp
2016-01-07T10:56:50Z flip214: ouch ;)
2016-01-07T10:57:39Z flip214: and even if it was configurable, the logic around get-buffer would need changing.
2016-01-07T10:57:55Z loke: And while alloc-buffer can take a buffer-size, it actually caches the buffers in a global list, *available-buffers*. It does not seem to be prepared to have multiple sizes in that list.
2016-01-07T10:58:40Z loke: I guess you could change that constant and rebuild SBCL?
2016-01-07T10:58:55Z loke: If you see a performance improvement after that, you should bring it up to the developers.
2016-01-07T10:59:22Z loke: This is probably code that's been around since cmucl
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2016-01-07T11:35:24Z nowhere_man: I'm wondering why CL has get-setf-expansion return code instead of a lambda
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2016-01-07T11:43:28Z jackdaniel: nowhere_man: it returns 5 values which build a setf expansion
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2016-01-07T11:43:35Z jackdaniel: spec setf expansions
2016-01-07T11:43:47Z jackdaniel: hm, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_aab.htm
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2016-01-07T12:06:22Z nowhere_man: jackdaniel: I know
2016-01-07T12:06:51Z nowhere_man: my question is, why did CL went with this design instead of a function that return a lambda to call with the values to store instead
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2016-01-07T12:16:07Z jackdaniel: maybe because setf works also on places, which functions doesn't?
2016-01-07T12:17:08Z jackdaniel: if you want a code which setf expands to you may use macroexpand
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2016-01-07T12:17:52Z jackdaniel: s/which/while/
2016-01-07T12:18:00Z jackdaniel: ie (setf (values a b c) (values 1 2 3))
2016-01-07T12:18:26Z Posterdati: hi
2016-01-07T12:18:31Z jackdaniel: o/
2016-01-07T12:18:37Z Posterdati: is there any cl-opencv user here?
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2016-01-07T12:22:49Z Posterdati: I've got a problem with cl-opencv, when exit from with-named-window the window stays opened
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2016-01-07T12:33:10Z splittist: Are there any good examples of extensive parenscript usage?
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2016-01-07T13:09:37Z lurker: Hie, what is the best to use between accumulator recursive fct and augmentation recursive fct? Or Does it depends on the situation?
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2016-01-07T14:28:55Z clop: can anyone successfully clone the cmucl git repo?  when I try the links at http://www.cons.org/cmucl/download.html I just get errors that the repository is not found
2016-01-07T14:29:15Z clop: don't know if it's a problem on my end or theirs
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2016-01-07T14:34:10Z edgar-rft: clop: common-lisp.net has switched to gitlab: <https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/groups/cmucl>
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2016-01-07T14:34:48Z clop: edgar-rft, thanks!
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2016-01-07T14:49:47Z eschulte: in general, for a function which should only be called on a particular type, what's the suggested best practice?  to use a defmethod, or assert type-of at the top of the function?
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2016-01-07T14:52:54Z jackdaniel: eschulte: method is fine, or (check-type …)
2016-01-07T14:53:02Z jackdaniel: at the start of the function
2016-01-07T14:53:32Z eschulte: thanks
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2016-01-07T14:53:36Z eschulte: wasn't aware of check-type
2016-01-07T14:53:41Z jackdaniel: :)
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2016-01-07T15:16:07Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: thanks for the fix! (seems like it was simpler than I feared)
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2016-01-07T15:29:06Z human_nature: well
2016-01-07T15:29:23Z human_nature: I have to say that at work there is a lot of activity fixing messes we ourselves create
2016-01-07T15:29:28Z human_nature: disks runnig outa of spce
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2016-01-07T15:32:27Z flip214: human_nature: buy some more.
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2016-01-07T15:33:08Z human_nature: lol
2016-01-07T15:33:14Z human_nature: I want to USE less DISK
2016-01-07T15:33:30Z human_nature: 10k is 10,000 lines of code
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2016-01-07T15:34:08Z human_nature: I love the idea of different program for different tasks, and think lots of conditinal are spagetti code
2016-01-07T15:34:20Z human_nature: boss is opposite, he wants 1 code base with tons conditional
2016-01-07T15:34:20Z human_nature: lol
2016-01-07T15:34:30Z human_nature: says mutiple programs doing multiple things is spagetti
2016-01-07T15:34:31Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: You're welcome. It was simple. I figured it would be, but the time involved is searching for the simple fix.
2016-01-07T15:34:34Z human_nature: i am like divide up takss
2016-01-07T15:34:37Z human_nature: specialize
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2016-01-07T15:34:45Z human_nature: he wants monopilthic and cases
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2016-01-07T15:36:35Z zwdr: I really like ML-style match
2016-01-07T15:36:53Z zwdr: but it can lead to switch-syndrome as well
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2016-01-07T15:38:03Z human_nature: I prefer multiple short specialized programs
2016-01-07T15:38:08Z human_nature: to one monolithic spagetti
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2016-01-07T15:38:20Z human_nature: hek I prefer shell to ansible, and everyone thinks im insane
2016-01-07T15:38:37Z human_nature: I hate my job
2016-01-07T15:38:43Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: It makes that translate-objects-ret a bit cleaner too; it just calls translate-objects now with two possible forms of call-form.
2016-01-07T15:39:12Z human_nature: it seems lisp has 100s of things that others have already figured out to make life easier
2016-01-07T15:39:23Z human_nature: it is just a challenge to read about them all and use them
2016-01-07T15:39:32Z human_nature: like tools lyng in the grass
2016-01-07T15:39:47Z zwdr: I think Lisp really lends itself to a lot of small modules
2016-01-07T15:39:57Z zwdr: so I agree with you
2016-01-07T15:40:34Z zwdr: but hell I make money writing PHP
2016-01-07T15:40:37Z human_nature: Just amazing I was going to accuse the current recipie of spagetti code and boss sees my solution as spagetti code
2016-01-07T15:40:45Z human_nature: lol
2016-01-07T15:40:54Z human_nature: do you have to do agile n scrume n stuff?
2016-01-07T15:41:00Z z0d: zwdr: don't air your dirty laundry
2016-01-07T15:41:09Z human_nature: it seems they try and kill all programming fun n creativity
2016-01-07T15:41:10Z zwdr: its the difference between building a monolith and a dsl
2016-01-07T15:41:28Z zwdr: z0d: yea this will follow me right
2016-01-07T15:41:29Z zwdr: shit
2016-01-07T15:41:35Z human_nature: it is never a bad idea to buy hardware bewcause it works 24/7 unlike humans
2016-01-07T15:41:59Z human_nature: I am spending hours fixing vmware and 6T usb dive is $200
2016-01-07T15:42:11Z zwdr: human_nature: PHP kills enough fun already, its horrible. But enough of that
2016-01-07T15:42:15Z zwdr: its offtopic
2016-01-07T15:43:39Z human_nature: is darcs2 as good as git?
2016-01-07T15:43:49Z human_nature: is there any source code manager in lisp?
2016-01-07T15:44:10Z z0d: darcs is simpler than git IMO
2016-01-07T15:44:18Z z0d: simpler to use, that is
2016-01-07T15:45:00Z z0d: human_nature: not to my knowledge, but we already have loads, so why have another?
2016-01-07T15:45:41Z attila_lendvai: luis: I think the cffi generator stuff is ready for consideration: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/84
2016-01-07T15:47:15Z human_nature: darcs seems cool
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2016-01-07T15:47:38Z human_nature: have you tried developing with a few team members over the net using darcs?
2016-01-07T15:47:40Z human_nature: work well?
2016-01-07T15:48:01Z z0d: it does
2016-01-07T15:49:02Z human_nature: so ok say I take a part of a program and improve it (I am not a pro developer)  how do you get my copy without overwritring your own? and test it? and then what happens when it looks good and I want to merge it with my stuff?
2016-01-07T15:49:21Z human_nature: or you want to merge with your stuff rather
2016-01-07T15:49:36Z z0d: you should ask this in #darcs
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2016-01-07T15:49:41Z attila_lendvai: that's both offtopic here and a google search away
2016-01-07T15:49:42Z human_nature: ok
2016-01-07T15:49:44Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: That's a big changeset.
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2016-01-07T15:53:15Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: that depends what you set as a reference point... :) I'm quite happy with how you can now start using a new C lib from lisp within an hour's work.
2016-01-07T15:54:01Z human_nature: when I see these concurrency libraries on cliki
2016-01-07T15:54:21Z human_nature: I wonder, how hard is it to write a program that uses one, to make my program be very fast?
2016-01-07T15:54:26Z mordocai: cl-wrap is also very nice
2016-01-07T15:54:30Z mordocai: cl-autowrap*
2016-01-07T15:54:30Z attila_lendvai: human_nature: fewer enters helps readability on the other side
2016-01-07T15:54:54Z mordocai: human_nature: Depends on what your program is bottle necked on
2016-01-07T15:55:10Z human_nature: Do people use them to write fasts non sql data base? (relly? I find more enters way nice, but you are not alone in telling me to make fewer)
2016-01-07T15:55:19Z attila_lendvai: mordocai: yes, I started out with that, and I used some code even. but I don't want the extra stuff, I want simple cffi
2016-01-07T15:55:35Z mordocai likes the extra stuff
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2016-01-07T15:56:43Z mordocai: human_nature: If you want a database use one that already exists. Making your own database is pretty much always a bad idea.
2016-01-07T15:58:10Z attila_lendvai: human_nature: also, consider speed once it works and you have profiled it. in my experience if you start out with speed in mind, then you'll get less done that will work less accurate and it'll even be slower at the end of the day because you allocate you mind to the wrong things at the wrong phase
2016-01-07T16:00:07Z zwdr: I also believe it's rare to have a use case that justifies writing a DBMS
2016-01-07T16:00:44Z zwdr: well, there's much to learn by doing it I guess?
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2016-01-07T16:02:30Z mordocai: zwdr: human_nature: Yeah you can learn a lot. Just don't use it in production, even for personal stuff IMO.
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2016-01-07T16:04:20Z human_nature: so i should just use php and postgresql?
2016-01-07T16:04:34Z mordocai: human_nature: or common lisp and postgresql :)
2016-01-07T16:04:39Z mordocai: or X and postgresql
2016-01-07T16:04:42Z mordocai loves postgresql
2016-01-07T16:04:58Z zwdr: yea, everything but PHP
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2016-01-07T16:33:23Z splittist: clhs labels
2016-01-07T16:33:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
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2016-01-07T16:39:11Z luis: attila_lendvai: goddamn. (cl-)travis has been particularly flaky lately
2016-01-07T16:40:39Z human_nature: why is work such hell?
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2016-01-07T16:43:29Z jdz: because people are ungrateful pricks and always want something they do not have
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2016-01-07T16:48:52Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2016-01-07T16:50:30Z moore33: beach: Hey there.
2016-01-07T16:50:58Z beach: moore33: I take it you are back in a more civilized region now?
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2016-01-07T16:51:53Z splittist: Yo beach! I'm having fun reproducing some of Second Climacs in a vi-ish terminal-based app. Perhaps I can even plug in your analyzers (:
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2016-01-07T16:52:05Z beach: Nice!
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2016-01-07T16:53:12Z beach: Cluffer update: It passes all the tests and I have nearly 100% code coverage.  I'll be working on the remaining few percent in the next few days.  Documentation is near complete.  Here is how the PDF looks: http://metamodular.com/cluffer.pdf
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2016-01-07T16:53:44Z moore33: beach: Yes, though the weather was better in the Drôme...
2016-01-07T16:53:47Z beach: splittist: Are you using something like cl-curses or whatever that library might be called?
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2016-01-07T16:54:11Z splittist: beach: yes - croatoan.
2016-01-07T16:54:26Z splittist: beach: and Cluffer, of course.
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2016-01-07T16:54:35Z beach: Oh, really?
2016-01-07T16:54:49Z beach: So you are not using the code in Second Climacs?
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2016-01-07T16:56:25Z beach: Or maybe I already plugged Cluffer into Second Climacs?
2016-01-07T16:56:31Z beach can't remember.
2016-01-07T16:56:53Z splittist: I think you have, somewhat. I started with something I had written (years ago...) using flexichains, and adapted it to Cluffer. Then I wanted to see what Second Climacs had that I could use directly.
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2016-01-07T16:57:52Z beach: splittist: OK.  Expect some changes to the code in Second Climacs soon.  I will make sure it uses Cluffer correctly, and I am working on a CLIM II GUI.
2016-01-07T16:58:03Z oGMo: anyone know of a pointer/memory/foreign compare-and-swap for CL?
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2016-01-07T17:00:59Z splittist: beach: OK. I think I'll go my own way on command processing anyway, but if I can adapt sufficiently to the 2C view/show/buffer structure I might be able to use the syntax analyzers. (Not that I'll have a great variety of shades and fonts to decorate with, but...)
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2016-01-07T17:02:07Z beach: splittist: Yes, that would be great.  We should keep in touch with respect to those analyzers.
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2016-01-07T17:04:17Z splittist: beach: Indeed.
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2016-01-07T17:06:38Z beach: splittist: Are you using the update protocol of Cluffer?
2016-01-07T17:07:04Z beach: I guess not, since I only just fixed the last (I hope) problems today.
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2016-01-07T17:10:48Z splittist: beach: I am, actually. Seemed to work with some casual testing... I guess I'd better pull the updated version.
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2016-01-07T17:11:16Z beach: Yes, that would be a good idea.
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2016-01-07T17:13:02Z attila_lendvai: luis: ENUM.SIZE.ERROR actually fails on ccl, I'm looking into it now
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2016-01-07T17:14:13Z beach: splittist: This is a great surprise.  I had expected that nobody would care about Cluffer, except for me, that is.
2016-01-07T17:14:55Z splittist: beach: not a bad surprise, I hope.
2016-01-07T17:15:06Z beach: Right.  A good one.
2016-01-07T17:19:55Z beach: I guess if your application is VI-ish, you are not interested in the Basic-Emacs layer that comes with Second Climacs.
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2016-01-07T17:22:39Z splittist: beach: Not really, no.
2016-01-07T17:22:47Z moore33: When are we going to have Multiple Climacs?
2016-01-07T17:23:45Z beach doesn't know.
2016-01-07T17:24:20Z beach: Anyway, time to go fix dinner.
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2016-01-07T17:24:36Z splittist: seems a fine idea.
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2016-01-07T17:28:28Z moore33: Does trivial-garbage have a portable without-gc, or do I need to look elsewhere for that?
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2016-01-07T17:31:08Z fe[nl]ix: without-gc is a bad idea in general and it's definitely not portable
2016-01-07T17:33:17Z moore33: @fe[nl]ix: Well, in a finalizer I want to put an object on a queue for later action. I'm not sure how to protect the queue and prevent deadlock without some kind of without-gc mechanism.
2016-01-07T17:35:50Z fe[nl]ix: an object, but not the one being collected, right ?
2016-01-07T17:36:05Z warweasle: If a lisp file has a current fasl, will lisp load that instead?
2016-01-07T17:36:36Z moore33: @fe[nl]ix: Right; basically, a more primitive representation of the foreign resource wrapped by the object.
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2016-01-07T17:38:41Z fe[nl]ix: moore33: how about you focus on SBCL first and use sb-ext:atomic-push ?
2016-01-07T17:38:54Z fe[nl]ix: once you have it working you can generalize it
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2016-01-07T17:40:22Z moore33: @fe[nl]ix: Generalize atomic-push? :) Actually, I probably care only about sbcl and ccl, but others might feel differently.
2016-01-07T17:40:41Z fe[nl]ix: as in using a portable library
2016-01-07T17:40:53Z fe[nl]ix: bordeaux-threads doesn't have atomics
2016-01-07T17:40:54Z fe[nl]ix: yet
2016-01-07T17:40:59Z moore33: yeah
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2016-01-07T17:47:21Z luis started working on that but got distracted, as usual
2016-01-07T17:48:13Z moore33: luis: Very cool, but don't worry; the lack of atomics is certainly not blocking for me yet :)
2016-01-07T17:50:17Z moore33: bbl
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2016-01-07T18:23:13Z LiamH: luis: I've patched libffi to make it threadsafe, using Bordeaux threads. It is conditionalized so that BT is not needed, but will be used if loaded prior to cffi-libffi.
2016-01-07T18:23:45Z LiamH: luis: How do you handle an optional system dependency of this type?
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2016-01-07T18:28:49Z luis: I don't handle it very well.
2016-01-07T18:29:43Z luis: Maybe it should always depend on bordeaux threads, unless there's another way of making it thread-safe.
2016-01-07T18:29:50Z luis: What's thread-unsafe about it?
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2016-01-07T18:46:36Z akkad: clhs get-hostname-by-ip
2016-01-07T18:46:36Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for get-hostname-by-ip.
2016-01-07T18:46:40Z LiamH:  luis: There's a hash table *cif-table* which stores function definitions.
2016-01-07T18:46:59Z LiamH: luis: it's only an issue for compilation.
2016-01-07T18:47:09Z LiamH: luis:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1474211
2016-01-07T18:47:26Z LiamH: and I don't think it's that big a deal, because it is only for compilation
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2016-01-07T18:48:27Z LiamH: I don't like the idea of making  a hard dependency on BT, because that cffi-libffi will needlessly fail for those who don't want and can't use threads.
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2016-01-07T18:49:40Z fe[nl]ix: optional deps don't work with ASDF and are a bad idea anyway
2016-01-07T18:50:26Z LiamH: so I will make no dependency, it will use BT if it's there, if not, code will expand as it does now
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2016-01-07T18:55:11Z Yanez: clhs get-internal-run-time
2016-01-07T18:55:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get__1.htm
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2016-01-07T19:32:01Z dog_chair: why lisp over haskell and smalltalk and erlang and prolog?
2016-01-07T19:32:34Z dlowe: why not?
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2016-01-07T19:32:51Z H4ns: we like our parentheses
2016-01-07T19:33:15Z dlowe: in C++, you can use as many parenthesis as you want and it doesn't even matter :D
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2016-01-07T19:33:41Z dlowe: (C++ and a lot of other languages)
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2016-01-07T19:35:10Z myrkraverk_: In C++, you can even use gratuitous { and } too.
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2016-01-07T19:35:40Z dlowe: yeah, but people don't love curly braces the way they love parentheses
2016-01-07T19:35:41Z myrkraverk_: main() {{{ printf( "foo" ); }}}
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2016-01-07T19:36:06Z myrkraverk_: Hmm, maybe not.
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2016-01-07T19:36:42Z H4ns: in clojure, comma is white space!!11elf   (defn,,,,,hello[foo,,,],,,(,,,println,,,"hello"foo))
2016-01-07T19:36:58Z myrkraverk_: That's convenient.
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2016-01-07T19:37:08Z xantoz: for people who can't quit commas?
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2016-01-07T19:37:22Z dlowe: H4ns: are you effing kidding me?
2016-01-07T19:37:25Z dlowe twitches.
2016-01-07T19:37:27Z H4ns: yeah.  that ignited my initial hate for clojure.
2016-01-07T19:37:34Z H4ns: dlowe: no kidding
2016-01-07T19:37:45Z H4ns: but i must admit that the hate has faded
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2016-01-07T19:38:14Z dlowe: this should be brought up more: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html
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2016-01-07T19:38:21Z dlowe: minion: features?
2016-01-07T19:38:21Z minion: features: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/features
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2016-01-07T19:38:55Z ieure: I like commas as whitespace in CLJ.
2016-01-07T19:38:55Z dlowe: minion: common lisp features?
2016-01-07T19:38:55Z ieure: Though I rarely use them at all.
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2016-01-07T19:38:55Z minion: i'm written in common lisp
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2016-01-07T19:39:03Z ieure: The comma thing may be a wart, but it's so superficial I don't think it matters.
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2016-01-07T19:40:22Z dlowe: yeah, I'm more aghast at the poor taste rather than any practical offensiveness
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2016-01-07T19:48:50Z foom: what was that feature intended for?
2016-01-07T19:49:04Z H4ns: just plain appeasement
2016-01-07T19:49:08Z foom: Of who?
2016-01-07T19:49:14Z foom: Who wants to use commas as spaces?
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2016-01-07T19:50:02Z foom: Or, can you put the parens in the wrong place too?
2016-01-07T19:50:19Z foom: println("hello", foo)?
2016-01-07T19:50:19Z ieure: They're treated that way so you can use commas for visually separating things in lists/vectors.
2016-01-07T19:50:39Z H4ns: foom: no, parens are significant.  but you can write {:foo 1, :bar 2} in a map literal
2016-01-07T19:50:40Z ieure: Since Clojure doesn't use the alist style ((k1 v1) (k2 v2)), but (k1 v1 k2 v2)
2016-01-07T19:50:49Z ieure: You can optionally do (k1 v1, k2 v2)
2016-01-07T19:50:53Z ieure: Or whatever you want.
2016-01-07T19:51:04Z dlowe: that's plist style, btw :)
2016-01-07T19:51:05Z foom: Right. Or (k1, v1 k2, v2). :)
2016-01-07T19:51:14Z H4ns: {:foo,1 :bar,2}
2016-01-07T19:51:16Z H4ns: i so love it.
2016-01-07T19:51:30Z foom: It's best to mix the styles
2016-01-07T19:51:42Z H4ns: heh
2016-01-07T19:51:53Z foom: (k1, v1 k2 v2, k3 v3)
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2016-01-07T20:06:15Z mordocai: Are there any good lisp related mailing lists I should join? I recently got my email filtering improved so i'm looking for more cool stuff to read.
2016-01-07T20:08:41Z mordocai: Also will program lisp for lisp related programming books
2016-01-07T20:08:46Z mordocai: (they're expensive)
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2016-01-07T20:15:06Z z0d: mordocai: you can read a lot of Lisp books for free on the Web
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2016-01-07T20:20:20Z reb`: mordocai: I also look at the Usenet group comp.lang.lisp
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2016-01-07T20:23:54Z H4ns: mordocai: the pro@common-lisp.net mailing list is rather low volume, but once or twice a year a nice thread comes up and all the smug lisp wheenies come out of their caves to vent their ridiculous opinions.
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2016-01-07T20:25:52Z mordocai: z0d: Yeah I was thinking more the new books like common lisp recipes https://www.apress.com/9781484211779
2016-01-07T20:26:10Z mordocai: All the books on my list right now are more than $50 each
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2016-01-07T20:27:34Z z0d: even in digital form?
2016-01-07T20:28:34Z mordocai: Yep
2016-01-07T20:28:49Z mordocai: Most textbooky things are nearly as expensive in digital form as physical
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2016-01-07T20:37:52Z z0d: mordocai: and even Let Over Lambda is partly free
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2016-01-07T20:39:49Z H4ns: even that!1
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2016-01-07T20:41:35Z z0d: even as in advanced topic
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2016-01-07T21:01:23Z dog_chair: bitorrent makes many free
2016-01-07T21:01:25Z dog_chair: :
2016-01-07T21:01:27Z dog_chair: :)
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2016-01-07T21:02:53Z Xach: luis: on debian 8, with a freshly compiled sbcl, i land in ldb when ql:quickloading perfpiece.
2016-01-07T21:03:00Z Xach: luis: also happens with 1.3.1 download
2016-01-07T21:03:10Z Xach: Control stack exhausted
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2016-01-07T21:07:19Z 7GHABYMZQ: Hie, I'm on the way to finish practical Common Lisp, what book should I read to complement it? Thx!
2016-01-07T21:07:27Z 7GHABYMZQ: complete*
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2016-01-07T21:22:19Z meirl: how do you guys deal with public speaking?
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2016-01-07T21:22:25Z meirl: My lisp has gotten out of hand
2016-01-07T21:22:34Z meirl: and its embarrassing
2016-01-07T21:24:44Z Yanez: so so funny...
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2016-01-07T21:25:49Z oleo: meirl: brush you teeth.........
2016-01-07T21:25:55Z oleo: lol
2016-01-07T21:25:59Z oleo: :)
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2016-01-07T21:28:22Z resttime: I check the CLHS to verify what I say is right ;)
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2016-01-07T22:13:41Z n_blownapart: hi scheme question here: on line 36 of this paste the little schemer book says "always use 1 for the value of the terminating line... what line on the paste does this refer to? thanks   http://pastie.org/10676851
2016-01-07T22:13:57Z n_blownapart: other channels quiet .. ^^
2016-01-07T22:14:32Z reb`: n_blownapart: This channel is for Common Lisp, so you may not get a response.
2016-01-07T22:14:44Z akkad_: it's all lisp
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2016-01-07T22:15:57Z Bicyclidine: you should ask #scheme. if you don't get a response, joining a washing machine channel to try to get an answer doesn't make sense.
2016-01-07T22:16:23Z n_blownapart: ok
2016-01-07T22:17:05Z dwchandler: n_blownapart: generally, that comment refers to the identity for multiplication. Same for 0 and addition.
2016-01-07T22:17:44Z dwchandler: Beyond that, it's an unclear comment to me.
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2016-01-07T22:17:55Z dwchandler: English fail
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2016-01-07T22:18:40Z n_blownapart: dwchandler: thanks. I was following well, and then read that sentence...what could he (a native English speaker) mean?
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2016-01-07T22:20:17Z dwchandler: dunno. "last line" isn't at all clear to me. if you understand the code then don't worry about it :)
2016-01-07T22:20:56Z n_blownapart: pax thanks dwchandler
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2016-01-07T22:22:00Z |3b| finds it unclear also, but i think it means line 14, where the recursion in O* (which uses O+) terminates
2016-01-07T22:22:36Z n_blownapart: |3b|: excellent thanks.
2016-01-07T22:22:59Z |3b|: if you implemented exponentiation using O*, it would use 1 there
2016-01-07T22:24:23Z n_blownapart: |3b|: like any number raised to the 0th power ?
2016-01-07T22:24:47Z n_blownapart: don't quite follow
2016-01-07T22:25:32Z |3b|: sounds right
2016-01-07T22:25:53Z n_blownapart: hmm thanks working on it.
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2016-01-08T00:58:29Z xantoz: is there a library that will let me do XSLT in CL?  it seems like I'm going to need to apply some XSLT server-side (version 1.0 will do)
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2016-01-08T00:58:53Z p_l: xuriella?
2016-01-08T00:59:03Z xantoz: right, should've just googled
2016-01-08T00:59:23Z xantoz: I'll try it, anyway
2016-01-08T00:59:27Z p_l: that said, I'll be happy if someone updates it for 2.0, or makes it a compiler or so
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2016-01-08T01:15:27Z xantoz: xuriella ignores <xsl:output indent="yes"> ...
2016-01-08T01:15:49Z xantoz: not that it's very important outside debugging, but
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2016-01-08T01:33:05Z SAL9000: Is there any naming convention for FFI binding systems, other than CL-FOO?
2016-01-08T01:33:05Z minion: SAL9000, memo from drmeister: I finished implementing the new scraper.  It's in testing.   I'll haven't written any documentation on it but it looks very much like what we talked about.  There are lots of examples in the code.   grep for DEFUN or DEFMETHOD.  All of the markup macros are in clasp/include/clasp/core/scrape.h
2016-01-08T01:33:05Z minion: SAL9000, memo from drmeister: The startup code used to involve lots of hand written calls to functions like af_def and class_<Foo_O>().def(...) and enum_<...>().value(...) to define functions, classes, methods and enums.  They have all been taken out of the startup code and now the scraper extracts tags for them and builds the code to expose these things
2016-01-08T01:33:05Z minion: SAL9000, memo from drmeister: Thank you for the UTF-8 fix.
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2016-01-08T03:17:51Z myrkraverk: Question, when reading a text, which leads up to lisp programming, is it disconcerting to see bytes referred to as 0xFA?
2016-01-08T03:18:16Z Bicyclidine: disconcerting?
2016-01-08T03:18:28Z myrkraverk: I guess I'm just more used to the C convention, than lisps.  Yeah, instead of #xFA.
2016-01-08T03:19:25Z myrkraverk: I may change it later, but my instinct is to write 0x in front of bytes when I write text.
2016-01-08T03:19:56Z Bicyclidine: i think people would usually understand both, but i suppose #x is nicer.
2016-01-08T03:20:16Z myrkraverk: *nod*
2016-01-08T03:20:35Z myrkraverk: I'm still writing, so I'll think about the presentation later c;
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2016-01-08T03:28:41Z myrkraverk: Yikes, I've spent about 300 words, just on an introduction to some of the real world problems we encounter with text processing.
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2016-01-08T03:29:49Z Bicyclidine: eh, that's just an abstract length, no big
2016-01-08T03:30:12Z myrkraverk: Time to start talking about decoding octets with SBCL.
2016-01-08T03:30:30Z linoge: Ok so I'm learning Lisp and came across CLOS. I've heard many and more times that state is to be avoided. How is it then that CLOS is part of the cl then?
2016-01-08T03:30:34Z myrkraverk: Ok.  I'm just starting on the code relevant text now.
2016-01-08T03:30:57Z linoge: s/of the/of/
2016-01-08T03:31:15Z myrkraverk: linoge: because CL is not there to force any one type of programming paradigm on you.
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2016-01-08T03:32:29Z linoge: Ok, but CLOS being accepted in core isn't a kind of insinuation?
2016-01-08T03:33:00Z myrkraverk: I don't think so.
2016-01-08T03:33:28Z myrkraverk: (but I wasn't there, at the time of CL's standardization)
2016-01-08T03:34:29Z Bicyclidine: linoge: CL was not formalized with the idea that state is bad. or for functional programming at all.
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2016-01-08T03:35:09Z linoge: I didn't say it was bad, just avoided.
2016-01-08T03:35:31Z Bicyclidine: cl wasn't formalized with the idea of avoiding state either
2016-01-08T03:35:39Z linoge: :-)
2016-01-08T03:35:51Z linoge: Ok, but would you recommend me using CLOS?
2016-01-08T03:36:09Z Bicyclidine: however works for you. i'm not a functional purist.
2016-01-08T03:36:15Z myrkraverk: linoge: It depends on what you want to achieve.  I don't always use CLOS, but it's there when I need/want it.
2016-01-08T03:36:36Z linoge: mmm
2016-01-08T03:37:15Z linoge: Well, while learning lisp I've become attracted to language theory (I think it is called like that, isn't it?)
2016-01-08T03:38:34Z linoge: and I'd really want to extend my knowledge, would you please share any book or resource that might be of help for archieving this?
2016-01-08T03:38:42Z Bicyclidine: "programming language theory", i guess you mean
2016-01-08T03:38:46Z Bicyclidine: Lisp in Small Pieces is nice
2016-01-08T03:38:51Z linoge: Yep
2016-01-08T03:39:18Z Bicyclidine: Types and Programming Languages is more PLTy, plus it'll incidentally teach you basic haskell and typed racket
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2016-01-08T04:33:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-01-08T04:35:34Z warweasle: beach: Good morning...well, nearing midnight rather.
2016-01-08T04:37:14Z beach: For those who didn't see my progress report some 10 hours ago: Cluffer passes all tests with nearly 100% coverage.  In the next few days I'll try to cover the rest as well.  Documentation is nearly finished, and the PDF looks like this: http://metamodular.com/cluffer.pdf
2016-01-08T04:37:39Z slyrus: morning beach!
2016-01-08T04:38:00Z loke: What is cluffer actually?
2016-01-08T04:38:01Z beach: slyrus: Did I send you email about your libraries?
2016-01-08T04:38:03Z warweasle: What's cluffer?
2016-01-08T04:38:07Z loke: (and I still associate it with Fluffer)
2016-01-08T04:38:10Z slyrus: beach: no, I don't think so
2016-01-08T04:38:12Z warweasle: Is it like clompers?
2016-01-08T04:38:27Z beach: Cluffer a library for representing the buffer of a text editor.
2016-01-08T04:38:46Z warweasle: beach: You have my attention. Go on.
2016-01-08T04:38:47Z beach: slyrus: There are several GIT repositories that are no longer available.
2016-01-08T04:39:13Z loke: beach: does it integrate with Emacs?
2016-01-08T04:39:15Z slyrus: oh. yeah, I've moved most stuff over to github. lemme know if there's something in particular that I've missed.
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2016-01-08T04:39:22Z beach: warweasle: Several people write text editors in Common Lisp.  There is Hemlock, Goatee, Climacs, Second Climacs, etc.
2016-01-08T04:39:29Z slyrus: I suppose I could move everything over to c-l.net now too.
2016-01-08T04:39:42Z slyrus: heh. hadn't heard about second climacs.
2016-01-08T04:39:49Z beach: slyrus: OK, then it would be great if you could update the documentation to reflect the move.
2016-01-08T04:39:52Z warweasle: beach: Wait, does it put rich text on textures and images?
2016-01-08T04:40:13Z slyrus: beach: sure, but let me know which libraries in particular you're looking for.
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2016-01-08T04:40:49Z beach: slyrus: At that particular time, it was for representing images and loading/storing them.
2016-01-08T04:40:52Z slyrus: and is there a canonical app that uses cluffer, e.g. a full-featured text editor?
2016-01-08T04:41:05Z beach: ch-image?
2016-01-08T04:41:33Z beach: warweasle: It does no such thing.  Think of it as a very efficient representation of an editable sequence, divided into lines, and that lends itself to the use case of a text editor.
2016-01-08T04:41:35Z slyrus: that's been replaced by opticl
2016-01-08T04:41:35Z warweasle: beach: Or does it handle the editing side. Because I have cl-pango which puts the text on an image, pdf or opengl texture. But I could use the "editor" logic. Syntax highlighting, ect.
2016-01-08T04:42:13Z beach: warweasle: I will add parsing logic for various languages, so that's part of the reason for the new representation.
2016-01-08T04:42:22Z slyrus: beach: but if you want the ch-image source, it's here: https://github.com/slyrus/ch-image
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2016-01-08T04:42:53Z beach: slyrus: OK, thanks.
2016-01-08T04:43:13Z newcup: good god. usually I've been asleep when beach wishes good morning to everyone. it's very late...
2016-01-08T04:43:14Z warweasle: beach: I'm rolling cl-pango into it's own libraray since I use it to make pdfs now. Could you look at that and see if we overlap or if I could make a lisp editor/repl with your stuff?
2016-01-08T04:43:20Z beach: slyrus: It was just that I found the documentation elsewhere and then the link was dead.
2016-01-08T04:43:34Z slyrus: oh, ok. yeah, I should fix that.
2016-01-08T04:44:01Z beach: warweasle: Cluffer does nothing to present the text to the user, so probably no overlap.
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2016-01-08T04:45:29Z warweasle: beach: You had my attention. Now you have my interest.
2016-01-08T04:45:32Z warweasle: :)
2016-01-08T04:45:35Z beach: warweasle: splittist is using Cluffer to create an editor right now.
2016-01-08T04:45:51Z warweasle: beach: But I need one for 3Dmacs
2016-01-08T04:47:31Z newcup: I reckon movie people consider 3D a gimmick
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2016-01-08T04:47:34Z beach: slyrus: I am thinking of using ch-image to replace image loading and representation in McCLIM.
2016-01-08T04:47:35Z warweasle wants to build an editor in common lisp that can handle text, graphics, vector AND 3D.
2016-01-08T04:48:04Z beach: warweasle: The documentation should be very close to complete, so it should be able to tell you whether you can use it for your purpose.
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2016-01-08T04:48:44Z warweasle: newcup: It might be a good idea or I might just be attacking windmills. Either way, I think it will secure my legacy.
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2016-01-08T04:50:42Z newcup: warweasle: at this point in time, the goggles feel too restricting or inconvenient, and the whole thing doesnt't feel to give any better feeling
2016-01-08T04:50:58Z newcup: warweasle: but I'd be glad to be proven wrong
2016-01-08T04:52:13Z newcup: I think 3d-displays are a big thing in future. how well has e.g. clim prepared for that?
2016-01-08T04:52:16Z warweasle: newcup: Well, I'm not thinking Johnny Mnemonic. But Sometimes it's useful to manipulate data, and drawings in space.
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2016-01-08T04:53:13Z newcup: warweasle: in this case I think you're aiming too low. but what do I know.
2016-01-08T04:53:44Z slyrus: beach: use opticl instead
2016-01-08T04:54:09Z beach: slyrus: OK.
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2016-01-08T04:54:46Z warweasle: newcup: I still think goggles are 57.6 kFails/S.
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2016-01-08T04:55:47Z newcup: :)
2016-01-08T04:55:58Z beach: slyrus: This is not something I will do immediately.  But I do want to simplify McCLIM and other software by making it more modular.  Using a good external library for images would be part of that.
2016-01-08T04:56:18Z newcup: warweasle: the world is as we see it
2016-01-08T04:57:33Z newcup: but isn't the occulus rift in the markets today?
2016-01-08T04:58:49Z warweasle: newcup: Yes, but I'm still not convinced. You know, "wait for the movie because I've heard this before."
2016-01-08T05:00:42Z newcup: then there are two people waiting, at least
2016-01-08T05:02:17Z newcup: warweasle: but I can't see what you're waiting for?
2016-01-08T05:03:40Z slyrus: beach: that would be awesome. you'll need my retrospectiff for TIFF images and cl-jpeg for JPEGs (duh) and similarly a couple other libraries for SVGs too.
2016-01-08T05:03:42Z warweasle: newcup: It's cool, that's true. But is it useful? Or is it another fad?
2016-01-08T05:04:17Z Bicyclidine: oculus is accepting pre-orders, which are six hundred bucks.
2016-01-08T05:04:51Z newcup: warweasle: 3d? I fail to see it being too useful with the current technology. maybe if we ever get the 3d projection technology
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2016-01-08T05:05:53Z warweasle: newcup: I don't think it's useful because it's not well integrated into other tools. 3D is useful for spreadsheets and presentations. It's just been difficut for a regular user to access.
2016-01-08T05:06:01Z warweasle: 3D plots are fairly common.
2016-01-08T05:06:37Z warweasle: Games are making people wish for HUDs on their PCs.
2016-01-08T05:06:51Z warweasle: Why should this be hard to add or manipulate.
2016-01-08T05:06:53Z warweasle: ?
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2016-01-08T05:09:15Z newcup: warweasle: well, up to einstein's times, they had to do everything in paper, conceptually in limited 2d, but still they got this far
2016-01-08T05:09:46Z newcup: warweasle: I guess with modern technology people can imagine things that are beyond these limits. I at least hope so
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2016-01-08T05:11:48Z Bicyclidine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jahnke_gamma_function.png old 3d is fun~
2016-01-08T05:13:03Z newcup: hand-written?
2016-01-08T05:13:43Z Bicyclidine: i don't know what mechanical tools they used.
2016-01-08T05:14:37Z newcup: that's an intriguing piece anyway
2016-01-08T05:15:22Z beach: slyrus: That should be no problem now that we have Quicklisp.
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2016-01-08T05:17:08Z beach: slyrus: Do you think it would be worthwhile having a separate library just for the representation of images in memory and for loading/storing such images to various file formats?
2016-01-08T05:17:49Z slyrus: maybe. opticl is kind of that really. there's some simple drawing stuff in there too that could be broken out if necessary.
2016-01-08T05:18:17Z beach: Excellent, I'll have a look at it, and do some tests, but not immediately.  Thanks.
2016-01-08T05:21:37Z mordocai: Anyone know of any test coverage tools that work with prove?
2016-01-08T05:21:52Z newcup: warweasle: hey, you're making an entry in http://itch.io/jam/january-2016-lisp-game-jam?
2016-01-08T05:22:09Z warweasle: newcup: Yes.
2016-01-08T05:22:19Z newcup: warweasle: great!
2016-01-08T05:22:44Z newcup: warweasle: I wanted to participate too, but... no time :(
2016-01-08T05:22:49Z warweasle: newcup: This is a few days old but it's something to show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6uyPZUPb7w
2016-01-08T05:24:48Z newcup: warweasle: looks good, there's no way out :D
2016-01-08T05:25:08Z warweasle: newcup: It's more pacman than maze.
2016-01-08T05:25:25Z warweasle: newcup: with Orbital "LAZERS"
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2016-01-08T05:26:38Z newcup: warweasle: absolutely, looks good, especially for three days worth of work
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2016-01-08T05:26:57Z newcup: I'd never guessed it'd be that fast
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2016-01-08T05:29:16Z newcup: warweasle: I did this in about three weeks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-SWG3A_mAQ
2016-01-08T05:30:20Z newcup: warweasle: and I hope I'd have time to improve that, especially now as I gave a piano of mine for a friend for his kids to practice on
2016-01-08T05:32:16Z warweasle: newcup: Wow. That looks really good.
2016-01-08T05:32:31Z warweasle: newcup: But what good are neutrals in the key of C?
2016-01-08T05:32:40Z newcup: warweasle: I thought that looks very stuttering and repulsive :)
2016-01-08T05:33:00Z newcup: warweasle: my plan was to change the key, if the score got high enough
2016-01-08T05:33:18Z warweasle was joking.
2016-01-08T05:33:28Z warweasle: newcup: It looked smooth to me.
2016-01-08T05:33:32Z newcup: warweasle: the stuttering is somehow a result of the recording process
2016-01-08T05:33:35Z warweasle: newcup: What are you using for input?
2016-01-08T05:33:44Z warweasle: newcup: I get that on my stuff as well.
2016-01-08T05:34:08Z newcup: warweasle: ah, good. but true, it's no good to only have key of C-major (A-minor)
2016-01-08T05:34:30Z newcup: warweasle: input's from midi device
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2016-01-08T05:38:20Z newcup: warweasle: only works with ccl and sbcl, here's the code: https://github.com/jnykopp/notewhacker/blob/master/midi.lisp
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2016-01-08T05:42:37Z warweasle: newcup: I *am* interested but I'm hacking on the gamejam. For some reason it's become important to me. Also, the world has thrown a chunk at me this week because...well, because.
2016-01-08T05:43:49Z newcup: warweasle: I understand very well. It's very hard to divert your concentration to multiple things
2016-01-08T05:43:52Z emaczen: How can I print a Tab Inside a ~{~a~} directive?
2016-01-08T05:44:15Z newcup: warweasle: do concentrate on the game jam! and do well! :)
2016-01-08T05:45:35Z emaczen: (format t "~{~a, ~}" '(1 2 3)) -- replace the comma with a tab is what I want.
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2016-01-08T05:47:43Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: put in a literal tab, or ~t
2016-01-08T05:48:34Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: ~t works great! I was trying #\tab before without any luck. How would you do it that way?
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2016-01-08T05:48:59Z Bicyclidine: like, insert an actual tab character.
2016-01-08T05:49:05Z loke: emaczen: You could do (format t "~c" #\Tab)
2016-01-08T05:49:19Z Bicyclidine: doesn't work well with the ~{
2016-01-08T05:49:25Z newcup: emaczen: this is more of a #lisp question, but good if you're satisfied
2016-01-08T05:49:40Z Bicyclidine: ...? this is #lisp?
2016-01-08T05:49:51Z loke: newcup: that's why we're in #lisp
2016-01-08T05:50:13Z newcup: loke: they don't appreciate good whiskies ;)
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2016-01-08T05:50:24Z newcup: oops, this is #lis
2016-01-08T05:50:25Z newcup: p
2016-01-08T05:50:30Z loke: Only crazy people don't appreciate whisky
2016-01-08T05:50:42Z loke: Anyway, I'm going to lunch now.
2016-01-08T05:50:52Z newcup: loke: bon appetit
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2016-01-08T05:54:51Z mordocai: Sorry if someone answered this and I missed it, but does anyone know of any code test coverage tools that work with prove?
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2016-01-08T05:56:09Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: (format t "~{~%~t~s~}" '(1 2 3)) -- the ~t seems to only be doing one whitespace
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2016-01-08T05:57:38Z Bicyclidine: clhs ~t
2016-01-08T05:57:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cfa.htm
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2016-01-08T05:58:00Z Bicyclidine: configure away
2016-01-08T05:58:35Z emaczen: Thanks
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2016-01-08T07:32:33Z mordocai: So I just tried to add a test system to my project but quicklisp isn't picking it up. https://gitlab.com/mordocai/crypts-and-corpses/tree/master. (ql:quickload :crypts-and-corpses-test) says package not found. What silly/stupid thing am I doing wrong here?
2016-01-08T07:34:05Z mordocai: The directory is in ~/quicklisp/local-projects and crypts-and-corpses system is picked up fine
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2016-01-08T07:35:52Z H4ns: did you restart your lisp yet?  it could be that there is a cache somewhere.
2016-01-08T07:36:28Z mordocai: I think I did, but i'll try again real quick. Worse case i'll just do what I did in my last project and call it crypts-and-corpses/test and include it in the main .asd
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2016-01-08T07:37:12Z mordocai: Nah, restarting the lisp didn't help any
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2016-01-08T07:38:51Z flip214: mordocai: look via strace what files quicklisp looks at?
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2016-01-08T07:40:28Z mordocai: It's mainly hitting ~/quicklisp/local-projects/system-index.txt
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2016-01-08T07:40:48Z mordocai: Which does not have my new asd for whatever reason
2016-01-08T07:42:42Z mordocai: Normally I don't have to manually enter that but maybe it only makes them for packages named after the dir? idk
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2016-01-08T07:43:16Z mordocai: Either way adding it to that fixes the issue
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2016-01-08T07:49:22Z loke: mordocai: Just delete the system-index.txt file
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2016-01-08T07:49:40Z loke: It will be rebuilt when you restart
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2016-01-08T07:51:30Z mordocai: loke: yep that works
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2016-01-08T08:01:47Z jimbow: a lot of things in life i know, but one thing i cant figure why a nigger can call me a honkey, and i cant call a nigger a nigger
2016-01-08T08:01:53Z jimbow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPNLIbwiN_4
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2016-01-08T08:12:36Z myrkraverk: Question, is it good for or bad form to write #'(lambda ...) ?
2016-01-08T08:14:34Z lieven: I do it that way. It's not necessary but it signals a function value like #'fun does.
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2016-01-08T08:15:54Z Zhivago: #'(lambda ...) is short-hand for (function (lambda ...)), (lambda ...) is also short-hand for (function (lambda ...)) :)
2016-01-08T08:16:57Z myrkraverk: Ok.  In the elisp world, I think #'(lambda ...) is considered bad form.  So I guess I'll just write (lambda ...) like I'm used ot.
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2016-01-08T08:39:23Z scymtym_: mordocai: i think the proper way to update the local system index is QUICKLISP:REGISTER-LOCAL-PROJECTS
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2016-01-08T08:44:34Z je4i: ql is great but lacks documentation
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2016-01-08T08:47:59Z jackdaniel: je4i: step in and write it \o/
2016-01-08T08:48:18Z jackdaniel: volunteer based stuff tends to, erm, need volunteers ;)
2016-01-08T08:50:29Z je4i: this is ok, but I would first be interested what xach thinks about it
2016-01-08T08:51:14Z jackdaniel: Xach_: ↑
2016-01-08T08:51:22Z jackdaniel: fair enough :)
2016-01-08T08:55:30Z je4i: minion: memo to Xach: are there any plans to set up kind of wiki for ql to improve documentation?
2016-01-08T08:55:30Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-01-08T08:58:28Z splittist: has anyone ever seen good documentation produced by a wiki?
2016-01-08T08:58:28Z myrkraverk: Does minion work with a nick prefix?
2016-01-08T08:59:03Z myrkraverk: splittist: I haven't.  But good documontation have shown up as a series of blog post.
2016-01-08T08:59:09Z myrkraverk: +s
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2016-01-08T09:00:58Z je4i: myrkraverk: enter /msg minion help
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2016-01-08T09:01:19Z jackdaniel: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2013/09/teach-dont-tell/#act-6-read-the-wiki (whole blog post is great)
2016-01-08T09:03:54Z je4i: jackdaniel: nice one, accepted
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2016-01-08T09:09:20Z splittist: jackdaniel: love it.
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2016-01-08T09:20:50Z myrkraverk: Now, wikis are ok - you can have access controls and a select few editors.
2016-01-08T09:21:03Z myrkraverk: but that's not what people think of, when you mention "wiki"
2016-01-08T09:22:04Z myrkraverk: And it's sometimes impossible to get nontechnical people to realize that a wiki can have access control.
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2016-01-08T09:42:21Z jackdaniel: is there a reason why sbcl signals a warning instead of an error when compiled with invalid mapcar? (defun bah () (mapcar #'(lambda (arg) arg))) ;; no argument to mapcar
2016-01-08T09:43:17Z splittist: isn't that one empty list?
2016-01-08T09:43:43Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/206 <- full logs (both ecl and sbcl)
2016-01-08T09:43:54Z jackdaniel: hm, there is no second argument to mapcar
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2016-01-08T10:02:14Z splittist: clhs throw
2016-01-08T10:02:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_throw.htm
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2016-01-08T10:23:02Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: technically, nothing prevented that DEFUN from completing its task
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2016-01-08T10:26:40Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: yes, I'm not saying it's sbcl's bug – just wonderin if there is anything more deep behind this decision
2016-01-08T10:26:56Z jackdaniel: what would render signalling an error bogus
2016-01-08T10:27:20Z jackdaniel: s/wonderin/wondering/
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2016-01-08T10:28:02Z White_Flame: I wonder if that decision is old enough to be a CMUCL holdover
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2016-01-08T10:29:08Z Zhivago: Consider the result of (*)
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2016-01-08T10:31:27Z jackdaniel: Zhivago: in clhs it's explicitly said, that the syntax is MAP function &rest lists+   ; in opposition to lists* - that's for one. the second thing is that provided function takes exactly one argument
2016-01-08T10:31:56Z jackdaniel: (by MAP I mean the whole family)
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2016-01-08T10:36:17Z White_Flame: it's not just MAP, btw.  (defun x (a b c) ...) (defun y () (x 1)) also warns but compiles
2016-01-08T10:36:59Z White_Flame: this latter one is STYLE-WARNING instead of WARNING, but yeah
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2016-01-08T10:41:06Z Zhivago: That's certainly a strong indicative hint.
2016-01-08T10:41:46Z White_Flame: a hint towards what?
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2016-01-08T11:18:24Z Posterdati: hi
2016-01-08T11:18:50Z Posterdati: how can I copy a #2a array into a #3m one using gsll?
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2016-01-08T11:31:35Z luis: Xach: ACK
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2016-01-08T13:29:49Z bpanthi: Help
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2016-01-08T13:55:20Z moore33: |3b|:In cl-opengl, is there support for ARB or EXT version of functions when the real thing isn't there?
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2016-01-08T14:02:18Z moore33: |3b|:Nevermind :)
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2016-01-08T14:09:39Z oleo: hello :)
2016-01-08T14:12:44Z loke`: hello
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2016-01-08T14:37:24Z warweasle: When is the next QuikLisp update? I'd like to coordinate some changes. I've separated some of clinch's libraries: cl-freeimage, cl-pango, and cl-ode.
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2016-01-08T14:41:11Z moore33: warweasle: I've been meaning to tell you that you might be interested in my nascent efforts at https://github.com/timoore/lpsg.
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2016-01-08T14:46:25Z warweasle: moore33: Cool, is this for the gamejam?
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2016-01-08T14:47:39Z moore33: No, what is that? :) I have two use cases in mind: modelling or CAD programs with complex scenes, and a rendering engine for Climatis.
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2016-01-08T14:48:17Z unix_easier: well
2016-01-08T14:48:31Z warweasle: moore33: Climatis?
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2016-01-08T14:48:50Z unix_easier: another day of being a linux admin in a java hornetq debian shop, with oracle and postgres, apache, tomcat, and jenkins and appadynamics
2016-01-08T14:48:55Z unix_easier: its a sick sick world
2016-01-08T14:49:04Z unix_easier: ansible is being pushed
2016-01-08T14:49:07Z moore33: wareasle: Or Clim 3; beach's follow-on to McClim.
2016-01-08T14:49:09Z unix_easier: as cure for all ills
2016-01-08T14:49:23Z unix_easier: and vmware is shaking under 100s of vms contention and snapshot backups
2016-01-08T14:49:26Z unix_easier: lol
2016-01-08T14:49:30Z unix_easier: hilarious stuff
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2016-01-08T14:50:37Z warweasle: moore33: I really wish everyone could get behind a single system, but some need 3D acceleration and others need cross platform, native windowing.
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2016-01-08T14:51:24Z moore33: warweasle: Yeah...
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2016-01-08T14:52:46Z moore33: warweasle: I've been very slowly working on this. When I started, I wanted to explore some of the current rendering engine ideas, and I didn't want to do it in C++.
2016-01-08T14:53:20Z warweasle: moore33: BTW, my gamejam project uses deferred lighting. :)
2016-01-08T14:53:39Z warweasle: moore33: I intend to push that into clinch proper, soon.
2016-01-08T14:53:49Z moore33: warweasle: Good stuff!
2016-01-08T14:53:51Z warweasle: moore33: And shadows...if I can figure them out.
2016-01-08T14:55:30Z moore33: warweasle: Do you have a hard lower limit on OpenGL version for clinch, or do you check for extensions?
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2016-01-08T14:55:47Z warweasle: moore33: I'm hoping by .5 or .6 to be able to load meshes, do automatic cleanup on opengl objects, and have sdl2 built in.
2016-01-08T14:55:54Z unix_easier: when does the lisp powered desktop come along? to replace mac n windows poo?
2016-01-08T14:56:05Z unix_easier: :)
2016-01-08T14:56:05Z warweasle: moore33: No, but I recommend 3.5.
2016-01-08T14:56:09Z warweasle: moore33: Or above.
2016-01-08T14:56:24Z dlowe: unix_easier: it already came and went
2016-01-08T14:56:38Z moore33: warweasle: In the same vain, I'm hoping to write a .obj loader soon for LPSG.
2016-01-08T14:56:43Z warweasle: moore33: Otherwise, I'm not sure if deferred rendering will work.
2016-01-08T14:57:18Z warweasle: moore33: Why not use classimp? I could use some help with building a shader library for it.
2016-01-08T14:58:02Z warweasle could really use something like a shader compiler, but can't seem to find any of the maintainers to help understand how to use them.
2016-01-08T14:58:41Z warweasle: moore33: Is 3.5 too modern?
2016-01-08T14:58:43Z synchromesh: warweasle: I guess you've seen Chris Bagley's Varjo (https://github.com/cbaggers/varjo)?
2016-01-08T14:59:06Z unix_easier: :(
2016-01-08T14:59:13Z moore33: warweasle: That may be a better way to go. I'm trying to do more FFI than necessary, though in this domain that may be a lost cause.
2016-01-08T14:59:42Z unix_easier: I must say I enjoy openbsd with iceWM and chrome or firefox(with youtube adblok)
2016-01-08T14:59:58Z warweasle: synchromesh: I've looked at it, but I don't understand it.
2016-01-08T15:00:15Z unix_easier: is there any kinda bigtable grid database done in lisp?
2016-01-08T15:00:33Z moore33: warweasle: I didn't know that there was a 3.5 ;) 3.3 seems absolutely fine to me. The remaining users who are on post 3.0 implementations seem to have reasonable extensions, unless your app needs geometry shaders.
2016-01-08T15:01:41Z warweasle: moore33: I was using 3.2, but the only example for multiple output targets required 3.5.
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2016-01-08T15:03:18Z unix_easier: when making lisp apps in production, how do lispers handle upgrades?
2016-01-08T15:03:34Z synchromesh: warweasle: He's made quite a number of videos about his CEPL project (that uses Varjo), they might help. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2VAYZE_4wRKKr5pJzfYD1w4tKCXARs5y
2016-01-08T15:03:43Z moore33: warweasle: I've never seen Opengl 3.5; I thought they went from 3.3 to 4.0.
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2016-01-08T15:11:12Z warweasle: synchromesh: I'll see about adding that to clinch, but I could use help understanding the compiler and how to integrate it.
2016-01-08T15:11:22Z moore33: Hmm, can't seem to get to assimp's web site.
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2016-01-08T15:12:03Z moore33: Someone forgot to pay the bill...
2016-01-08T15:12:28Z synchromesh: warweasle: Fair enough too. I haven't looked at it in anger (as it were) but I met Chris at the last ELS and he seemed very approachable. So if you contact him directly I'm sure he could help you.
2016-01-08T15:14:05Z warweasle: synchromesh: To be completely fair, I have a lot of other items ahead of a shader builder, so I haven't tried very hard.
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2016-01-08T15:16:10Z moore33: warweasle: When you say "shader library for classimp," do you mean a library for shading everything that OpenAsset can produce? I don't really know anything about Open Asset.
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2016-01-08T15:17:38Z warweasle: moore33: Yes.
2016-01-08T15:17:49Z warweasle: moore33: Or at least the basic ones.
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2016-01-08T15:26:20Z unix_easier: are ther any common lisp online games?
2016-01-08T15:26:29Z unix_easier: like world warcraft?
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2016-01-08T15:28:29Z moore33: warweasle: It looks like the complicated part is implementing Open Asset's "texture stack."
2016-01-08T15:28:40Z jsgrant: I recall a mmo gamedev framework that used CL on the server-end, but can't exactly recall the name of it atm.
2016-01-08T15:28:47Z jsgrant: Romans? Romance?
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2016-01-08T15:29:36Z zwdr: not really about games, but yahoo webshops still uses lisp as templating language
2016-01-08T15:29:43Z jsgrant: unix_easier: http://sourceforge.net/projects/romance/
2016-01-08T15:29:46Z zwdr: I found the docs a time ago
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2016-01-08T15:30:05Z jsgrant: I'm not sure if there was ever a game written with it though and/or even how mature that codebase happens to be generally.
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2016-01-08T15:30:44Z jsgrant: Gamedev is a place I'd like to see CL get some more mindshare in, and due to a number of relevant projects I think there's some potiental there.
2016-01-08T15:33:30Z unix_easier: hmm
2016-01-08T15:33:36Z unix_easier: looks graphically like a phone game
2016-01-08T15:34:01Z unix_easier: eve online is stakless python I heard
2016-01-08T15:34:07Z unix_easier: surely lisp can do better
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2016-01-08T15:34:39Z warweasle: jsgrant: Are you familiar with #lispgames?
2016-01-08T15:35:58Z jsgrant: warweasle: Vaguely, I plan on getting more involved later this year actually; CEPL holds a fair amount of interest with me, and if they hold another gamejam in 2017, I'll likely through a hat in that ring to get more involved. :^)
2016-01-08T15:36:09Z jsgrant will probably start lurking there though, now that it's mentioned again.
2016-01-08T15:37:44Z unix_easier: oow
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2016-01-08T15:40:07Z warweasle: jsgrant: I'd like to plug my clinch engine.
2016-01-08T15:40:33Z warweasle: jsgrant: A lot is about to change with version 0.5
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2016-01-08T15:41:17Z warweasle: jsgrant: I learned a lot making my game and I'm incorporating that experience into clinch.
2016-01-08T15:41:29Z jsgrant: warweasle: Are you BradWBeer, I'm assuming on Github?
2016-01-08T15:41:37Z jsgrant: You are*
2016-01-08T15:41:43Z warweasle: jsgrant: Yes.
2016-01-08T15:42:02Z jsgrant: Oh, I did already star that repo; Thought the name sound familar.
2016-01-08T15:42:09Z warweasle: jsgrant: :)
2016-01-08T15:42:34Z jsgrant: warweasle: Game type?
2016-01-08T15:42:58Z jsgrant: Sorry, I'm being very vague; I'm going to grab some water brb.
2016-01-08T15:43:11Z warweasle: jsgrant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6uyPZUPb7w   It's fully 3D by the way, including physics.
2016-01-08T15:43:44Z warweasle: jsgrant: It's going to be a pacman game but with physics which requires a little more skill.
2016-01-08T15:44:33Z jsgrant: Back, and also neat; I like the spam of lambs. :^)
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2016-01-08T15:45:54Z moore33: warweasle: Do you have thoughts on relying on GC to free OpenGL resources, as opposed to forcing the user to deallocate objects explicitly?
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2016-01-08T15:46:54Z jsgrant: warweasle: Now to just implement fully physic realistic water flow, that you have to avoid geting drenched by. ;^)
2016-01-08T15:47:04Z jsgrant: Neat little demo though.
2016-01-08T15:50:39Z unix_easier: I prefer games with swords n spells
2016-01-08T15:50:42Z unix_easier: personally
2016-01-08T15:50:48Z warweasle: moore33: I think a mixed approach is best.
2016-01-08T15:51:15Z warweasle: jsgrant: I've thought about moving to pure ECL so I could use blender easily.
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2016-01-08T15:51:29Z warweasle: jsgrant: It can do that very well.
2016-01-08T15:51:37Z p_l: jsgrant: sounds like DwarfFortress...
2016-01-08T15:52:28Z jsgrant: warweasle: Oh, I had no idea that there was some intergration assumingly of ECL into/with Blender.
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2016-01-08T15:52:43Z moore33: jsgrant: What's the connection between ECL and Blender?
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2016-01-08T15:53:31Z warweasle: moore33: To elaborate on GC, Opengl objects need to be deallocated. It's best if they are unloaded manually but in case they are not, finalizers should also be used. Furthermore, there should be a weak-hash-table of loaded objects so they can be unloaded on exit.
2016-01-08T15:53:34Z jsgrant: p_l: You know, I still haven't played Dwarf Fortress; Let alone really know what it's about, though I'm pretty sure super realism inregards to physics may be an issue.
2016-01-08T15:53:47Z warweasle: moore33: ECL can use C++ code.
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2016-01-08T15:54:19Z warweasle: moore33: You can call directly rather than writing a wrapper library.
2016-01-08T15:54:32Z moore33: warweasle: Interesting about ecl.
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2016-01-08T15:55:32Z warweasle: moore33: I also believe ECL can be staticly linked with libraries by using configure arguments when you build ECL.
2016-01-08T15:55:59Z moore33: warweasle: It's interesting to consider whether deleting objects on exit is necessary, or if it's easiest to just destroy the OpenGL context and be done with it.
2016-01-08T15:56:01Z warweasle: moore33: If nothing else, you can write your own program, link everything there and then start ECL.
2016-01-08T15:56:29Z warweasle: moore33: I don't think you can count on OpenGL deallocating properly.
2016-01-08T15:56:31Z jsgrant: moore33: Ah, I think what happened is that I assumed like Gimp once did with their custom Scheme; I partially assumed that Blender might of integrated ECL for scripting purposes already. If that's not the case though, then meh, Blenders game-engine looks a bit slugish generally.
2016-01-08T15:56:53Z jackdaniel: warweasle: btw, were you able to reproduce on you home machine the bug you mentioned earlier?
2016-01-08T15:57:02Z warweasle: jsgrant: Although it might make more sense to use an existing game engine with ECL.
2016-01-08T15:57:07Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Yes.
2016-01-08T15:57:19Z jackdaniel: could you report an issue with steps to reproduce?
2016-01-08T15:57:26Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I was going to look into it more when I'm done with the gamejam.
2016-01-08T15:57:38Z jackdaniel: understood, thanks
2016-01-08T15:57:44Z moore33: warwealse: I think you can assume that; otherwise it's a big bug.
2016-01-08T15:57:48Z jsgrant: warweasle: Yeah, but this is the Lisp community; Isn't the point to be extremely impractical and roll everything from scratch, every single time? :^)
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2016-01-08T15:58:02Z warweasle: jsgrant: Yes. That goes without saying.
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2016-01-08T15:59:29Z jsgrant still crosses his fingers for the relevance of mcclim, but knows that qtools is going to win out ultimately. :^I
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2016-01-08T15:59:51Z warweasle: jsgrant: Although, I believe a lisp game engine will have advantages over scripting an existing one.
2016-01-08T16:00:10Z jsgrant: warweasle: Well, I can surely agree on that one.
2016-01-08T16:00:15Z warweasle: jsgrant: Such as creating a graphics "bytecode" compiler.
2016-01-08T16:00:17Z moore33: jsgrant: You are probably right, but don't count out beach's infinite endurance :)
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2016-01-08T16:02:05Z jsgrant: moore33: Why isn't there a "I want to believe" poster with the little Lisp Alien yet?
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2016-01-08T16:02:47Z warweasle: jsgrant: Imagine compiling your game from an editor and it optimizes it into a custom, cross-platform engine.
2016-01-08T16:02:55Z splittist: the biggest barrier to universal adoption of beachware will be the increasingly odd names. cluffer I can just about type, but claracter is never going to work...
2016-01-08T16:03:17Z moore33: splittist: Heh!
2016-01-08T16:03:49Z warweasle: splittist: I should write one call Gizz-MOP
2016-01-08T16:04:12Z jsgrant: Everything beach is selling, I want, I just think the network effect has been so brutally hostile to such things and will likely drown all attempts onwads as it has to the past, that it's stuck in a "to dream the impossible dream" to me; His optimism is great and infectious though and I wish him and his attempts the best.
2016-01-08T16:04:18Z flip214: splittist: will all that be written in clommon cllisp?
2016-01-08T16:04:28Z warweasle: Ok, what is beach up to?
2016-01-08T16:04:58Z moore33: jsgrant: beach just doesn't give a shit about the network effect. If he needs something interesting he writes it, even if it takes yeaers.
2016-01-08T16:05:02Z jsgrant: warweasle: He's the guy working on climacs, mcclim, and a dozen other things.
2016-01-08T16:05:04Z moore33: s/yaers/years
2016-01-08T16:05:09Z warweasle: flip214: I need to eat breakfast. How about some Claptain Clunch. Wow, we are developing a lisp.
2016-01-08T16:05:26Z warweasle: jsgrant: Is it all toward a single goal?
2016-01-08T16:06:02Z jsgrant: warweasle: I'm pretty sure he wants a full CL computing environment, though I haven't heard him say so directly.
2016-01-08T16:06:13Z warweasle: jsgrant: That sounds familiar.
2016-01-08T16:06:21Z synchromesh: warweasle: beach is a CL bodhisattva - he toils for the eventual enlightenment of all Common Lispers
2016-01-08T16:06:50Z warweasle: synchromesh: See Lisp, kill Lisp. Because the real Lisp is inside of you!
2016-01-08T16:07:34Z synchromesh: Choose neither Scheme nor Clojure, but follow the Middle Path - Common Lisp.
2016-01-08T16:07:50Z jsgrant: moore33: I'm already halfway on the bandwagon, though I don't know if I could/would ever be able to get that commited. Those are the people you need though, people who don't really care largely about the network effect and will keep truding onwards regardless.
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2016-01-08T16:08:03Z warweasle: "Master Foo, does emacs have Buddha nature?" Thinks a moment, "Why the hell not? It has everything else! ... It lacks a decent text editor, though."
2016-01-08T16:09:17Z warweasle: Schemer: "Buddha is small, clean, and serious." Common Lisper: "Buddha is big, has hairy armpits, and laughs."
2016-01-08T16:09:26Z splittist: The network effect is why Altavista will never be dethroned as the principle search engine of the network, and why new languages like Go, Swift and Rust have no users.
2016-01-08T16:09:52Z synchromesh: splittist: I've just started using Go, actually.
2016-01-08T16:09:54Z splittist: s/ple/pal/
2016-01-08T16:10:07Z jsgrant: Relative "CL competence" is my big 2016 resolution-thingy though, so maybe in a years time I'll be in a state where I'm willing to go all-in or at least close to it.
2016-01-08T16:10:15Z splittist: synchromesh: exactly
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2016-01-08T16:10:40Z synchromesh: splittist: Yes, my fingers ran ahead of my brain there I think.
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2016-01-08T16:24:02Z dwchandler: altavista was the prominent search engine before google
2016-01-08T16:24:25Z dwchandler: I still miss the boolean search queries
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2016-01-08T16:29:56Z splittist: clhs upcase
2016-01-08T16:29:56Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for upcase.
2016-01-08T16:29:59Z splittist: (:
2016-01-08T16:30:31Z warweasle: Are there any lispers in Indianapolis?
2016-01-08T16:31:02Z dwchandler: clhs string-upcase
2016-01-08T16:31:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stg_up.htm
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2016-01-08T16:31:14Z dwchandler: splittist ^^
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2016-01-08T16:44:02Z moore33: clhs a bad cold
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2016-01-08T16:44:35Z moore33: hmph
2016-01-08T16:44:45Z moore33: clhs a-bad-cold
2016-01-08T16:44:46Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for a-bad-cold.
2016-01-08T16:44:56Z moore33: That's better.
2016-01-08T16:46:03Z splittist: dwchandler: yes. I was looking for char-up/downcase.
2016-01-08T16:46:23Z splittist is never sure when the standard will abbreviate something...
2016-01-08T16:49:48Z mordocai: splittist: What, you don't have the standard memorized yet? Better get on that :P
2016-01-08T16:51:08Z Xach_: wo
2016-01-08T16:51:08Z minion: Xach_, memo from je4i: are there any plans to set up kind of wiki for ql to improve documentation?
2016-01-08T16:51:12Z Xach_: je4i: no
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2016-01-08T16:53:18Z mordocai: Xach_: Hey since you are around. Would a wrapper using http://foo.wyrd.name/en:bearlibterminal violate the "no obscure foreign libraries" rule of quicklisp or might it be able to get in? The library isn't in any package managers but it does ship pre-compiled binaries for windows and linux (I guess NOT mac os?).
2016-01-08T16:54:01Z mordocai didn't want to make a github issue and just waste time if it doesn't have a chance to get in anyway.
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2016-01-08T16:54:45Z Xach_: I don't want to grab that, sorry.
2016-01-08T16:55:00Z mordocai: No problem, that's why I checked :P
2016-01-08T16:55:04Z Xach_: I'm having trouble with the existing niche roguelike support library, tcod
2016-01-08T16:55:19Z mordocai: Xach_: yeah, that's why I wrote a wrapper for this. tcod was broken for me
2016-01-08T16:55:46Z moore33: Xach_: What's your threshold for "obscure?"
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2016-01-08T16:57:18Z Xach_: moore33: i'm particularly sensitive right now, because i'm moving to debian 8 for builds and there are ten or so libraries that are hard to install, and i don't want to add another one.
2016-01-08T16:57:55Z moore33: Xach_: It's really of academic interest for me.
2016-01-08T16:57:59Z Xach_: it counts as obscure if it's not in debian doesn't build with ./configure && make && make install
2016-01-08T16:58:11Z Xach_: (maybe with a little more fuss than that, but not much more)
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2016-01-08T16:58:49Z Xach_: I would like to have some ready-made way to bundle up these things so setting up a ql build server is a matter of running a script or two, but until then
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2016-01-08T17:03:49Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2016-01-08T17:05:38Z jackdaniel: o/
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2016-01-08T17:06:48Z blub: hi beach
2016-01-08T17:07:07Z jackdaniel: beach: what is your opinion on this? https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/206 (regarding prefered compiler behavior – warning or error)
2016-01-08T17:07:28Z Xach_: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-01-08/failure-report.html is the current debian 8 failure list
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2016-01-08T17:09:26Z mordocai: Xach_: Anything I could do to help or do you just need to slog through it on your own?
2016-01-08T17:10:42Z beach: jackdaniel: Not sure what you are asking.  It is an error, so the compiler should at least warn about it, I would think.  No?
2016-01-08T17:11:26Z jackdaniel: yes, I mean – what is more appropriate - error on compilation or a mere warning
2016-01-08T17:12:16Z beach: Warning I would think.
2016-01-08T17:12:43Z beach: In SICL, I signal an error, but then the compiler should probably convert that to a warning.
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2016-01-08T17:13:27Z jackdaniel: hm, since it's bogus by all means shouldn't it be an error though?
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2016-01-08T17:14:27Z beach: I haven't thought about it much, but it seems to me that the compiler should not fail to compile virtually anything.
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2016-01-08T17:15:26Z beach: For instance, what if that particular form is never evaluated.  Why should the programmer not be allowed to execute that program?
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2016-01-08T17:16:38Z jackdaniel: on the other hand warnings should warn about somewhat dubious constructs, invalid ones should be swept away
2016-01-08T17:16:45Z beach: One more argument: Perhaps the programmer would prefer to fix the incorrect code in his/her program in a different order from the one the compiler reports it in.
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2016-01-08T17:18:11Z jackdaniel: thanks, I'll think about it. My intuition goes the other way though :p
2016-01-08T17:18:19Z beach: Yeah, I can tell.
2016-01-08T17:18:21Z beach: :)
2016-01-08T17:19:08Z beach: Perhaps it would help you to know that I consider warnings from the compiler to be errors that should be fixed.
2016-01-08T17:19:27Z beach: Of course, some Common Lisp implementations make that pretty hard to accomplish.
2016-01-08T17:20:39Z mordocai noticed a lot of warnings scroll by when compiling sbcl.
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2016-01-08T17:25:24Z splittist: mordocai: highly valuable information from the compiler about typos and thinkos usually. In my case, at least.
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2016-01-08T17:26:49Z beach: splittist: Maybe mordocai means compiling SBCL on SBCL.
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2016-01-08T17:28:52Z beach: To me, it is very disconcerting to have some widespread generate warnings when compiled.  That either means that there are errors in that software, or that the implementation makes it hard to avoid warnings in perfectly good code.
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2016-01-08T17:29:03Z beach: some widespread software
2016-01-08T17:29:13Z mordocai: beach: Yeah, like when I cloned the git repo and built sbcl using sbcl.
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2016-01-08T17:31:00Z moore33: beach: Sometimes It's hard to clean up 35-year old code :)
2016-01-08T17:31:45Z beach: That too.
2016-01-08T17:32:11Z zwdr: well good thing CL is at least reasonably stable with that
2016-01-08T17:32:16Z beach: I spend a considerable amount of time removing warnings from compiling McCLIM.
2016-01-08T17:32:18Z zwdr: but 35 years? Where'd you find that?
2016-01-08T17:33:09Z beach: zwdr: Many implementations were started before the standard was voted, so they are largely written in CLtL1 Common Lisp.
2016-01-08T17:33:43Z jdz: and CL is only 20 years old, anyway
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2016-01-08T17:33:55Z loke`: jdz: Umm...
2016-01-08T17:34:10Z loke`: jdz: 27 years old.
2016-01-08T17:34:40Z loke`: Oh wait. Sorry. I mean 22 years
2016-01-08T17:34:49Z loke`: Why did I think it came out in 1989?
2016-01-08T17:35:23Z jdz: does not matter much -- it's last century, anyway :)
2016-01-08T17:35:34Z moore33: zwdr: Parts of cmucl are easily that old.
2016-01-08T17:35:39Z loke`: jdz: Hey. The best centry!
2016-01-08T17:36:11Z moore33: loke`: How are getting that? CLtL1 came out in 1984 or so.
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2016-01-08T17:38:16Z loke`: moore33: The standard is 1994
2016-01-08T17:38:29Z loke`: CLtL1 was before the standard.
2016-01-08T17:39:04Z moore33: loke`: What does that have to do with the age of implementations?
2016-01-08T17:39:10Z jdz: for some reason i had year 1995 in my head
2016-01-08T17:39:22Z moore33: For that matter, are there any implementations that were started after the standard came out?
2016-01-08T17:39:34Z jackdaniel: jscl
2016-01-08T17:39:46Z loke`: moore33: ABCL, Clasp
2016-01-08T17:39:54Z loke`: SBCL
2016-01-08T17:40:23Z moore33: Besides, it's really a stretch to say that CL didn't start with CLtL1 and the discussions that lead to it.
2016-01-08T17:40:39Z moore33: loke`: Never mind all the CMUCL code in SBCL...
2016-01-08T17:41:11Z loke`: moore33: Fair enough. Just noticed CMUCL is from 1980
2016-01-08T17:41:24Z loke`: Still, ABCL and Clasp are valid exampled.
2016-01-08T17:41:42Z jackdaniel: clasp shares some code with other implementations too
2016-01-08T17:42:22Z moore33: loke`: I will grant you that. I don't know Clasp; and don't know anything about the code in ABCL.
2016-01-08T17:42:22Z loke`: jackdaniel: Given the liveral licenses on almost all Lisp code, I'd be _very_ surprised if there was a single implementation that didn't share code with another.
2016-01-08T17:42:42Z loke`: Clasp is only a couple of years old.
2016-01-08T17:42:45Z jackdaniel: I think ABCL and JSCL would count
2016-01-08T17:43:03Z loke`: what's JSCL?
2016-01-08T17:43:05Z jackdaniel: loke`: and by sharing code I mean >10% (as a rough estimation)
2016-01-08T17:43:13Z jackdaniel: not finished yet CL implementation in javascript
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2016-01-08T17:43:18Z blub: why reinvent the wheel
2016-01-08T17:43:25Z loke`: jackdaniel: That sounds pretty neat indeed.
2016-01-08T17:43:51Z loke`: Doesn't llvm have a javascript code generator too? Perhaps clasp could be ocerced into using it.
2016-01-08T17:43:52Z beach: minion: Please tell blub about SICL.
2016-01-08T17:43:53Z minion: blub: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2016-01-08T17:43:53Z jackdaniel: demo here http://www.learnlispthehardway.org/try-lisp/
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2016-01-08T17:44:08Z loke`: Oh yeah. Clasp uses Sicl
2016-01-08T17:44:11Z jackdaniel: it doesn't have quite a few things yet though
2016-01-08T17:44:15Z loke`: doesn't it?
2016-01-08T17:44:23Z beach: blub: For that ↑ reason.
2016-01-08T17:44:25Z moore33: beach: Should have thought of SICL too :)
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2016-01-08T17:44:52Z blub: thats a good reason
2016-01-08T17:44:53Z beach: moore33: Well, it doesn't really exist yet, so you are forgiven. :)
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2016-01-08T17:45:12Z beach: Dinner.  I might be back later.
2016-01-08T17:45:17Z jackdaniel: \o
2016-01-08T17:45:18Z moore33: Me too.
2016-01-08T17:45:22Z jackdaniel: o/
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2016-01-08T17:48:43Z flip214: |
2016-01-08T17:48:44Z flip214: o
2016-01-08T17:49:00Z flip214: \|/
2016-01-08T17:49:01Z flip214:  o
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2016-01-08T18:07:40Z jasom: loke`: The problem with using llvm's javascript backend is that nearly all lisp implementations assume the call stack is in addressable memory, but it is not with llvm's javascript backend
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2016-01-08T18:25:54Z sebboh: Question.. you know that thing where some variables are magically inserted into the scope of a little function that you're calling?  It's called closure, or that's a closely related concept.  How do I do it?
2016-01-08T18:28:32Z sebboh: Suppose (defun call-some-functions (functions) (let ((a 10) (progn functions))))... Then (call-some-functions (list function1 function2))... How can I let function1 and function2 see the let-bound variable?
2016-01-08T18:28:59Z mordocai: (let ((blah 5)) (defun blargh () (princ blah)) (defun blah () (princ blah)))
2016-01-08T18:29:05Z mordocai: Might not be exact but something like that
2016-01-08T18:31:32Z sebboh: defining blah via (let ...) or defining it via loop are the same, right?
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2016-01-08T18:32:57Z mordocai: sebboh: Technically it depends but for your use case probably
2016-01-08T18:33:18Z sebboh: I don't understand what you're showing me with those defuns inside there.  I want to pass arbitrary functions in, so I don't have to write many versions of the big function which opens the file and all that.
2016-01-08T18:33:31Z sebboh: mordocai: I accept that answer. :)
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2016-01-08T18:34:45Z beach: sebboh: You would have to define those functions inside the let.
2016-01-08T18:34:51Z jackdaniel: sebboh: you may want to read about dynamic scope
2016-01-08T18:34:53Z p_l: sebboh: you want special variables probably
2016-01-08T18:35:00Z jackdaniel: ↑
2016-01-08T18:35:04Z p_l: not closure
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2016-01-08T18:36:53Z p_l: WITH-OPEN-FILE and WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING are macros that essentially wrap the code in a let block binding some special variables for the scope of that block
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2016-01-08T18:37:51Z p_l: they are a great example of "deduplicating" the code for handling some kind of resource
2016-01-08T18:38:34Z unix_easier: down with oracle! ban java!
2016-01-08T18:38:37Z mordocai: sebboh: As far as my example, my naming didn't help much there since I named the let binding and the function symbol the same (though that actually should work thanks to namespaces).
2016-01-08T18:38:38Z p_l: sebboh: hope that helps, can't type lisp on my phone ;-)
2016-01-08T18:39:36Z p_l: best JVM tgat I have usexld so far is from IBM
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2016-01-08T18:49:56Z sebboh: oh, duh, for what I'm doing here... I want to write a macro.  This'll be the first one.
2016-01-08T18:50:36Z sebboh: The macro will expand to my current big function... but with whatever values I specify filled in...
2016-01-08T18:51:39Z sebboh: p_l, thank you.  I'm actually using with-open-file and thinking about how it works led me to deciding to write a macro for this. :)
2016-01-08T18:51:45Z sebboh: and all, thank you.
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2016-01-08T18:52:52Z p_l: sebboh: fun thing - it doesn'tchave to be macro (that just takes care of makimg it easy to pass code/functions around)
2016-01-08T18:53:19Z p_l: it qill work just fine with a function that uses funcall on one of its argumenta inside a let block
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2016-01-08T18:58:35Z sebboh: funcall, oh, hm.  Okay.
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2016-01-08T20:35:57Z kenanb: how do I get the generic function object given a generic function name
2016-01-08T20:36:14Z kenanb: I want to reach the resulting object reference of defgeneric
2016-01-08T20:36:33Z kenanb: and also, how do I reach its defined methods
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2016-01-08T20:42:10Z kenanb: also, AFAIK a generic function is a funcallable-standard-object, if I manually define a class of funcallable-standard-class metaclass and set a function to it, I need to explicitly funcall the instances of that function, how does defgeneric create instances that can actually be directly called instead of being funcalled, does it also define a symbol with the same name in function namespace?
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2016-01-08T20:44:45Z kenanb: sorry for too many questions, I am trying to find the answers from MOP spec and SBCL source, but the source for that stuff is a little complicated, I couldn't find the answer those three particular questions
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2016-01-08T20:46:35Z mordocai: kenanb: Just to let you know, I read your questions and have no idea what the answers are
2016-01-08T20:46:52Z splittist: kenanb: as for your third question, isn't this one of the things ensure-generic-function-using-class does? What does the closette code for this do?
2016-01-08T20:47:05Z splittist: s/third/last/
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2016-01-08T20:50:59Z kenanb: mordocai: thank you for trying to answer anyway :)
2016-01-08T20:51:26Z kenanb: splittist: hmm, yes, that seems to be it, thank you!
2016-01-08T20:52:37Z kenanb: CLHS says: The function ensure-generic-function is used to define a globally named generic function with no methods or to specify or modify options and declarations that pertain to a globally named generic function as a whole.
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2016-01-08T20:59:34Z kenanb: ah, so funcallable-instance-function in the case of a generic function is not the one that is actually called by user, but it is the gf's discriminating-function, so the gf definition in global namespace explicitly funcalls the funcallable-instance-function, which is the discriminating-function
2016-01-08T20:59:48Z trinitr0n: http://pastebin.com/Yj4ezjGe
2016-01-08T20:59:49Z kenanb: ok that I understood now, thank you splittist
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2016-01-08T21:01:57Z splittist: kenanb: my pleasure (:
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2016-01-08T21:04:59Z trinitr0n: Sorry for a potential flame question but
2016-01-08T21:05:17Z trinitr0n: what is a good common lisp implementation that is not clozure
2016-01-08T21:05:27Z trinitr0n: is there a generally accepted best implementation
2016-01-08T21:05:34Z mordocai: No and sbcl
2016-01-08T21:05:45Z trinitr0n: purpose would be to run ancient code written for MACLISP or on symbolics
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2016-01-08T21:05:49Z resttime: Second for SBCL is another popular option.
2016-01-08T21:05:51Z trinitr0n: * or for
2016-01-08T21:05:53Z trinitr0n: okay
2016-01-08T21:05:57Z trinitr0n: that's what I'm using already
2016-01-08T21:06:02Z trinitr0n: it's...
2016-01-08T21:06:03Z trinitr0n: okay
2016-01-08T21:06:18Z mordocai: trinitr0n: It is actually very very good but the repl isn't.
2016-01-08T21:06:23Z mordocai: Use slime
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2016-01-08T21:08:39Z trinitr0n: mordocai: thank you
2016-01-08T21:08:42Z trinitr0n: this looks promising
2016-01-08T21:08:50Z trinitr0n: second dumb question
2016-01-08T21:08:57Z trinitr0n: any good OpenGL bindings?
2016-01-08T21:09:06Z mordocai: trinitr0n: Yes and come to #lispgames
2016-01-08T21:09:22Z mordocai: Not that it is off topic but there are some people there that don't hang out here
2016-01-08T21:09:31Z trinitr0n: cool
2016-01-08T21:09:34Z trinitr0n: thank you
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2016-01-08T21:16:54Z kenanb: splittist: hmm, now that I know it actually creates a function in global function namespace, both fdefinition and symbol-function did the trick to retrieve the generic function object associated with the name :)
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2016-01-08T22:13:23Z AJavaIdiot: (I hope it's ok to post this directly since it's a short line of code)
2016-01-08T22:14:24Z AJavaIdiot: I understand both why this doesn't change the col1 and col2 symbols: (mapcar #'(lambda (x y) (push x y)) '(3 4) (list col1 col2)). My question is, how would I "dereference" (as you would in C) the y, to refer to the actual symbols?
2016-01-08T22:15:16Z AJavaIdiot: I'd be grateful if anyone could just so much as point me towards a function/macro, I don't need a full explanation :)
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2016-01-08T22:22:15Z kenanb: AJavaIdiot: sorry I don't quite get what you want, this is not working and I don't know which part to fix, can you provide a sample output you are trying to reach
2016-01-08T22:22:24Z resttime: AJavaIdiot: Your question feels very odd in the context of C, but to refer to the actual symbol you quote it like 'y which is short for (quote y)
2016-01-08T22:23:08Z kenanb: AJavaIdiot: are col1 and col2 actually variables or should they actually be symbols? because you didn't quote them.
2016-01-08T22:23:45Z AJavaIdiot: I'm sorry, maybe my example wasn't the best
2016-01-08T22:23:48Z AJavaIdiot: Here's the actual code:
2016-01-08T22:23:51Z AJavaIdiot: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304773
2016-01-08T22:24:20Z AJavaIdiot: (Excuse the formatting)
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2016-01-08T22:25:27Z kenanb: AJavaIdiot: it is ok but just to address the syntax problems, you don't newline parens in CL and you don't put whitespaces between them
2016-01-08T22:25:59Z AJavaIdiot: I know, I already asked for some tips about making my code look more idiomatic the other day. I'm just not used to it yet, but thanks
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2016-01-08T22:26:49Z InvalidCo: heh
2016-01-08T22:27:12Z InvalidCo: I'd been trying to figure out how to catch certain classes being redefined
2016-01-08T22:27:25Z InvalidCo: just hooking some stupidly complex ui code around
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2016-01-08T22:28:22Z InvalidCo: after perusing amop and spending days stuck on the same problem I realized you just need to specialize initialize-instance
2016-01-08T22:28:39Z InvalidCo: first arg is your metaclass
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2016-01-08T22:37:27Z kenanb: AJavaIdiot: ok, there are many problems with this function, I am trying hard time to understand it, are you trying to transpose the matrix or flatten it into a one dimentional array or something
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2016-01-08T22:38:04Z pjb: kenanb: (make-array (reduce (function *) (array-dimensions matrix)) :displaced-to matrix)
2016-01-08T22:39:19Z PuercoPop: kenanb: to return the function that would be call use compute-effective-method
2016-01-08T22:39:32Z AJavaIdiot: kenanb: I just cleaned up the code a bit and added a few comments to try to make it more understandable
2016-01-08T22:39:34Z AJavaIdiot: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304774
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2016-01-08T22:39:47Z AJavaIdiot: But you hit it the first time: I'm trying to transpose the matrix
2016-01-08T22:41:38Z kenanb: PuercoPop: yeah, I figured that out, too, once I realized I can simply reference the generic function object with (fdefinition 'fname). still, thank you :)
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2016-01-08T22:43:08Z pjb: AJavaIdiot: you're not using the right data structure.
2016-01-08T22:43:23Z AJavaIdiot: I'm aware pjb! I should be using a 2d array
2016-01-08T22:43:37Z AJavaIdiot: But using the "wrong" data structure is part of the exercise
2016-01-08T22:43:47Z pjb: Oh, somebody's forcing you to use lists.
2016-01-08T22:44:20Z AJavaIdiot: Yes. I already know how to use arrays, but I think the intent is to drive home the point of much easier it is to use the right data structure
2016-01-08T22:44:27Z AJavaIdiot: for each thing (by making us do the opposite)
2016-01-08T22:44:49Z pjb: (let ((matrix '((1 2 3) (4 5 5) (7 8 9)))) (apply (function mapcar) (function list) matrix)) --> ((1 4 7) (2 5 8) (3 5 9))
2016-01-08T22:45:35Z pjb: It works while (< (length matrix) (1- call-arguments-limit)) (or the stack overflows, on some implementations).
2016-01-08T22:46:05Z pjb: Or rather (< (length matrix) (- call-arguments-limit 2)) in this case, since we pass to previous arguments.
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2016-01-08T22:46:27Z pjb: Oops, no, 1-. I'm tired.
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2016-01-08T22:48:42Z kenanb: AJavaIdiot: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3513128/transposing-lists-in-common-lisp
2016-01-08T22:49:29Z kenanb: AJavaIdiot: this link just gives an explanation of what pjb already stated
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2016-01-08T22:53:46Z AJavaIdiot: Thanks both pjb and kenanb, I'm working through the explanation right now
2016-01-08T22:54:45Z kenanb: AJavaIdiot: try (mapcar #'+ '(1 2 3) '(6 7 8)) and you'll get (7 9 11) because it applies the function #'+ to the CARs of its arguments, so change #'+ with list, and you'll get almost what you want with a slight difference.
2016-01-08T22:55:16Z AJavaIdiot: But still, just for curiosity's sake, is there any way to do what I was trying to do? ("derefence" the y in the lambda to affect the object it was copied from, or pass in the object (columns (parentheses within parentheses, so appropriate)) to the lambda, and not a copy of its value)
2016-01-08T22:56:01Z kenanb: AJavaIdiot: the difference is you don't have multiple flat lists but a single nested list, so you need to APPLY #'mapcar to it, instead of calling mapcar directly
2016-01-08T22:56:02Z AJavaIdiot: That much I understand kenanb, it's apply that I haven't worked with yet
2016-01-08T22:56:30Z pjb: AJavaIdiot: Well, NIL is not mutable. This is your problem. But if you used a mutable structure to hold your columns, you could do it.
2016-01-08T22:57:16Z pjb: AJavaIdiot: you could use a cons cell.  (let ((col1 (cons nil nil)) …) … (lambda (element list) (push element (cdr list))) …)
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2016-01-08T22:57:29Z pjb: Then you would have the columns in (cdr col1) etc.
2016-01-08T22:58:03Z pjb: But with push, you would have collected the elements in the reverse order so you would need nreverse to revert to the original order.
2016-01-08T22:58:16Z pjb: (make-cmatrix :col1 (nreverse (cdr col1)) …)
2016-01-08T22:58:55Z pjb: Oh, no. I see you've processed the rows in the reverse order, so it will be ok.
2016-01-08T22:59:03Z pjb: (make-cmatrix :col1  (cdr col1) …)
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2016-01-08T23:00:19Z AJavaIdiot: You lost me a bit pjb
2016-01-08T23:00:31Z pjb: ok, let me gather it for you.
2016-01-08T23:00:53Z AJavaIdiot: I thought that mutability was irrelevant here, since in (lambda (element list) ...) list is a copy of whatever I pass to the lambda
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2016-01-08T23:01:40Z AJavaIdiot: To make an analogy: I think I'm passing in by value, and I'd want to pass in by reference
2016-01-08T23:02:17Z AJavaIdiot: (Apologies, I'll be gone for a bit, but I'll read anything you reply when I'm back)
2016-01-08T23:02:58Z pjb: AJavaIdiot: you can keep a reference in the cdr of a cons cell.
2016-01-08T23:03:43Z pjb: In CL, there's only passing by value. Only some values are references (like objets, cons cells, structures, arrays, etc).
2016-01-08T23:04:22Z pjb: So when you want to pass a reference to something that is not a reference, you need to wrap it into a structure that is a reference.
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2016-01-08T23:07:45Z pjb: AJavaIdiot: check: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304774#1
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2016-01-08T23:08:52Z pjb: Oh, and you can use mapc instead of mapcar since you don't use the result.
2016-01-08T23:09:12Z pjb: Also correct the comment in row->cols.
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2016-01-08T23:48:52Z AJavaIdiot: thanks pjb
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2016-01-09T00:18:14Z theethicalegoist: Has anyone read the common lisp recipes book yet?
2016-01-09T00:19:28Z je4i: partly
2016-01-09T00:19:54Z theethicalegoist: how is it?
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2016-01-09T00:21:45Z je4i: I like it.  Learned a lot of things
2016-01-09T00:24:36Z jlarocco_: i wish there were a kindle version
2016-01-09T00:25:07Z jlarocco_: or any ebook version, really
2016-01-09T00:25:47Z theethicalegoist: I think you can get a pdf version from apress, but it's a bit expensive for an ebook
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2016-01-09T00:27:09Z jlarocco_: oh, just checked their site and it says "eBook coming soon"
2016-01-09T00:27:18Z jlarocco_: $49 doesn't seem too bad
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2016-01-09T00:28:45Z jlarocco_: a complete ebook of let over lambda would be nice, too
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2016-01-09T02:32:23Z mordocai: What's the easiest way to loop across a two dimensional array? I'm thinking nested loop across but idk.
2016-01-09T02:32:44Z mordocai: Though I need the indexes too so maybe just inc some integers
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2016-01-09T02:40:07Z Bike: probably loop increasing an index, and then have two variables bound to the values of mod
2016-01-09T02:42:16Z resttime: Could use two DOTIMES
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2016-01-09T02:46:45Z oGMo: or make a flat displaced array and iterate linearly ;)
2016-01-09T02:47:04Z oGMo: getting the X/Y back is a simple calculation if you need it
2016-01-09T02:47:29Z oGMo: but nested loops are no less efficient and possibly less confusing in some cases
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2016-01-09T02:48:14Z mordocai: oGMo: Yeah, my array is flat displaced but i'm using axions crawler which isn't :P
2016-01-09T02:48:57Z pseudo_sue: speaking of iteration... is there a nice way to iterate over a function's arguments (as symbols)? Here's the sort of thing I want to do, but the way I did it irks me, & seems unlispy. https://bpaste.net/show/28acd2a46c40
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2016-01-09T02:50:08Z pseudo_sue: basically, I want to take a bunch of arguments and stick them into a hashtable with the key being the symbol's name and the value being the symbol's value. seems like there should be a way of doing this.
2016-01-09T02:50:24Z pseudo_sue: (without clunking through it like I did in the paste)
2016-01-09T02:53:06Z oGMo: pseudo_sue: that is not a great way to do that i think
2016-01-09T02:53:13Z resttime: Immediately I think of a macro which feels kinda hacky, but I'm wondering if there's anything that can inspect the function arguements.
2016-01-09T02:53:16Z pseudo_sue: yeah, it seems intuitively stupid..
2016-01-09T02:53:18Z oGMo: i mean, &key arguments for that .. keys tend to be slow as hell
2016-01-09T02:53:53Z pseudo_sue: yeah? what would you recommend. I don't care about speed in this context, since it's a function that will only be called infrequently.
2016-01-09T02:53:58Z oGMo: pseudo_sue: imagine (setf rax ...) and then make a macro so you can (define-regs rax rbx ...)
2016-01-09T02:54:12Z pseudo_sue: (the context here: it's a sandbox for testing ROP-chains in)
2016-01-09T02:54:13Z oGMo: (setf rax 0 rbx 1 rcx 2 ...)
2016-01-09T02:54:41Z oGMo: ah, well, either way a similar approach should work
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2016-01-09T02:55:53Z pseudo_sue: I like the way &key lets me specify only the regs I need, in this case. Could you say a bit more about the way you'd do this? This is the first project I've really attempted in lisp. Haven't touched macros yet.
2016-01-09T02:56:19Z pseudo_sue: (emacs configs aside)
2016-01-09T02:56:20Z oGMo: but setf also lets you specify what you need
2016-01-09T02:57:19Z oGMo: (defun (setf REGNAME) (v) (setf (gethash 'REGNAME *registers*) v)) should be an easy macro to make
2016-01-09T02:57:24Z pseudo_sue: okay, and I could use a macro to have, say, "rax" (or, better, %rax) expand to (gethash "rax" *registers*)?
2016-01-09T02:57:31Z oGMo: also you might want to use symbols rather than strings
2016-01-09T02:57:38Z pseudo_sue: nice.
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2016-01-09T02:58:05Z pseudo_sue: makes sense. strings seem unnecessarily heavy for smth like this
2016-01-09T02:58:10Z Zhivago: Why are you looking them up dyamically? :)
2016-01-09T02:58:19Z pseudo_sue: because noob.
2016-01-09T02:58:21Z oGMo: also you can make accessors that way. you might want to tie this to some VM stateful object thing rather than a global, but either way
2016-01-09T02:59:11Z pseudo_sue: using a class?
2016-01-09T02:59:56Z Zhivago: If it doesn't need to be dynamic, you can just have something like (define-register rax ...)
2016-01-09T03:00:24Z Zhivago: And that can establish whatever operations you want on rax with all of the appropriate parameters.
2016-01-09T03:00:29Z pseudo_sue: Zhivago: you're right, I'll probably want bring this down to a lexical binding, especially if I want to be running multiple vm threads at once.
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2016-01-09T03:01:39Z pseudo_sue: I'm really green with lisp rn, so if there's any tutorials, wikis, manuals, etc. that you could point me to (Practical Common Lisp is what I've been using so far) that would be super-welcome
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2016-01-09T03:02:50Z pseudo_sue: or, say, a gist or snippet that does roughly the sort of thing you're talking about
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2016-01-09T03:05:55Z resttime: I call it the "uh-oh" macro: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304789
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2016-01-09T03:06:33Z pseudo_sue: thanks, resttime!
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2016-01-09T03:09:27Z resttime: No problem, it just does the same thing as before (except the hash-key is uppercase).  Also it's definitely an "uh-oh"  so don't use it lol.  Though it is a way you can think of for meta programming is all.
2016-01-09T03:10:25Z pseudo_sue: it's a good place to start. the (symbol-name arg) bit is actually pretty close to what I was originally looking for. I'll give some more thought to scoping, too, before I get too attached to any particular way of setting this up.
2016-01-09T03:10:38Z pseudo_sue: got to run for a bit. thanks again!
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2016-01-09T03:15:58Z resttime: Oh whoa it's really wrong, should be collecting those SETF's into a list and then splicing hahaha.
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2016-01-09T03:16:18Z resttime: Uh-oh D:
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2016-01-09T03:19:45Z pseudo_sue: (phew, good thing I'm still here... I figured it was buggy as is though. )
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2016-01-09T03:21:15Z resttime: That should do it, still an uh-oh though lol: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304789#1
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2016-01-09T03:22:30Z pseudo_sue: thanks again!
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2016-01-09T03:24:04Z pseudo_sue: this at least scratches the aesthetic itch that my func had left me with. now to go deal with scoping issues...
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2016-01-09T03:32:55Z resttime: Replace it later on, it's probably more "aesthetic" in the hacky sense.  oGMo and Zhivago were hinting at something more important regarding better design so make sure to think about what they have said.
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2016-01-09T03:35:50Z pseudo_sue: will do.
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2016-01-09T03:48:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-01-09T03:48:44Z pseudo_sue: morning, beach!
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2016-01-09T04:09:41Z beach: pseudo_sue: Are you working on something related to x86-64 machine code?
2016-01-09T04:10:02Z pseudo_sue: yup. It's part of a larger project, that I'm just getting started on.
2016-01-09T04:10:21Z beach: Do you care to elaborate on what the project is about?
2016-01-09T04:10:22Z pseudo_sue: I'm working on a platform for genetically programming ROP-chain payloads.
2016-01-09T04:10:28Z beach: Ah, OK.
2016-01-09T04:10:42Z p_l: oh, nice!
2016-01-09T04:10:51Z pseudo_sue: https://github.com/ObliviaSimplex/rop-pharm Here's the readme.
2016-01-09T04:10:58Z pseudo_sue: I just got working on it today.
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2016-01-09T04:11:26Z pseudo_sue: My plan is to teach myself lisp as I go.
2016-01-09T04:11:39Z p_l has been thinking of something using semantic web style knowledge representation for code, as basic block for things like classic AI planning and genetic generation of code
2016-01-09T04:11:40Z pseudo_sue: seems like a good project for the language.
2016-01-09T04:11:57Z pseudo_sue thinks that sounds really cool. 
2016-01-09T04:12:06Z p_l: pseudo_sue: well, it's (IMO) definitely easy to steal code from the compiler ;)
2016-01-09T04:12:37Z p_l: on SBCL, there are (undocumented but workable) ways to simply reuse its code generation library to generate arbitrary code
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2016-01-09T04:13:10Z pseudo_sue: p_l: I want to keep everything virtualized though, and living in lisp-land, so that I can port the tool out to other architectures (like ARM, or Dalvik bytecode, or whatever)
2016-01-09T04:13:30Z pseudo_sue: p_l: tell me more.
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2016-01-09T04:13:46Z p_l: pseudo_sue: yeah, that was part of what inspired me for the idea of semantic-web style of representation for code/operations/etc.
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2016-01-09T04:14:56Z p_l: as for reusing SBCL's bits, http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/ <--- is a very good writeup
2016-01-09T04:15:25Z pseudo_sue: wait, "port" isn't what I meant there. I meant that it could be used to generate rop-chains for non-x86/amd64 machine code as well -- just a matter of writing a different architecture module. the logic'll be the same.
2016-01-09T04:16:01Z pseudo_sue: (module here being: a simplified VM and a battery of lisp functions to stand in for the opcodes)
2016-01-09T04:17:36Z pseudo_sue is reading the pvk post now
2016-01-09T04:17:54Z beach: pseudo_sue: You might want to use slime-indentation in your slime-setup in your .emacs file so that you get LOOP indentation right.
2016-01-09T04:18:17Z beach: pseudo_sue: No need to put a newline after COND in your code if the clauses fit on the remainder of the line.
2016-01-09T04:18:25Z pseudo_sue: beach: thanks for the tip. I confess that my indentation is an undisciplined mess.
2016-01-09T04:18:38Z beach: pseudo_sue: If you have an IF without an ELSE, it is better to use WHEN.
2016-01-09T04:19:00Z pseudo_sue: (I think I was working on a wee little 50 column terminal window at the time I wrote a lot of that code)
2016-01-09T04:19:03Z beach: pseudo_sue: If you have an IF with both branches, put the test and each branch on a separate line.
2016-01-09T04:19:08Z pseudo_sue: thanks.
2016-01-09T04:19:44Z beach: Use 3 semicolons for a comment at the top level of a file.
2016-01-09T04:20:23Z pseudo_sue: this is helpful. I had this really uncomfortable sense of not having a feel for lisp indentation style, and emacs will only get you so far.
2016-01-09T04:20:26Z beach: Instead of testing for numberp in different functions, you may consider using generic functions.
2016-01-09T04:20:31Z pseudo_sue: it's a sort of culture shock.
2016-01-09T04:20:48Z pseudo_sue: beach: I'll check that out.
2016-01-09T04:20:59Z beach: SLIME with slime-indentation will do a very good job on the indentation.
2016-01-09T04:21:04Z beach: ... including LOOP.
2016-01-09T04:22:15Z pseudo_sue: one thing I've got a really poor sense of, so far, though, is where to break the line when you just run out of space (going over 70 chars, say)
2016-01-09T04:22:34Z pseudo_sue: I've got a feel for how to do that in C, say, but not here.
2016-01-09T04:22:38Z beach: Yeah, I agree.  It depends on the situation.
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2016-01-09T04:23:23Z beach: Sometimes I use LET* to introduce names so that the "main" form becomes shorter.
2016-01-09T04:23:35Z beach: (or LET)
2016-01-09T04:23:45Z beach: It also serves as documentation for the subforms.
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2016-01-09T04:23:57Z pseudo_sue: I think I've been doing a bit of that. glad it was kosher.
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2016-01-09T04:24:15Z beach: Of course, not everyone agrees with me. :)
2016-01-09T04:25:09Z pseudo_sue: it's a kind of pythonic idiom, hey? using local bindings freely just to document and abbreviate.
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2016-01-09T04:25:32Z pseudo_sue: (kind of common anywhere, but moreso over there, in pythonland)
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2016-01-09T04:26:52Z Bike: 's just throwing a bunch of lemmas into your paper.
2016-01-09T04:26:52Z beach: I believe you.  I don't follow what happens in that land.
2016-01-09T04:27:14Z beach: Bike: Good analogy, yes.
2016-01-09T04:28:28Z pseudo_sue: that's funny, I think I used the same analogy today for an assembly lab i was TAing
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2016-01-09T04:29:16Z pseudo_sue: (well, assembly and architecture -- we were doing the Nand2Tetris labs)
2016-01-09T04:29:27Z pseudo_sue: (which are a lot of fun, btw)
2016-01-09T04:30:33Z beach: pseudo_sue: Where do you work?
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2016-01-09T04:30:56Z pseudo_sue: I'm a grad student at Dalhousie, in Halifax.
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2016-01-09T04:32:07Z beach: Interesting.
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2016-01-09T04:33:08Z pseudo_sue: how about you, beach?
2016-01-09T04:33:43Z beach: I'm in Bordeaux, France.
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2016-01-09T04:34:42Z eudoxia: hello everyone, i'm in a state of sin and could use some pointers
2016-01-09T04:35:16Z eudoxia: i need to setf the slots of a class instance. like, an instance of standard-class. because i'm serializing standard-class instances and restoring them
2016-01-09T04:35:46Z eudoxia: i can do it in sbcl by setf'ing the sb-pcl::direct-slots but there's not portable way to do it through closer-mop that i know of, probably because it's a horrible idea
2016-01-09T04:36:27Z beach: By "class instance" I assume you don't mean an instance of a class but rather a "class metaobject"?
2016-01-09T04:36:41Z eudoxia: yes
2016-01-09T04:37:03Z Bike: there's class-slots
2016-01-09T04:37:10Z beach: It may not be as easy as that.
2016-01-09T04:37:16Z eudoxia: yes but i don't think that's setfable is it
2016-01-09T04:37:39Z Bike: i am not sure.
2016-01-09T04:37:46Z beach: No, you don't want to setf class-slots.
2016-01-09T04:37:57Z beach: That's done by the class-finalization protocol.
2016-01-09T04:37:58Z Bike: you need to setf for the deserialization, right? why not just make a class all in one shot?
2016-01-09T04:38:17Z eudoxia: i know you can't *quite* restore the same object
2016-01-09T04:38:32Z eudoxia: because you can't tell the different between inherited slots and direct slots
2016-01-09T04:38:36Z eudoxia: unless you store them differently
2016-01-09T04:39:06Z Bike: sb-mop:class-direct-slots?
2016-01-09T04:39:33Z Bike: i'm filled with home that anything exported from sb-mop is in c2mop
2016-01-09T04:39:38Z Bike: mop class-direct-slots
2016-01-09T04:39:38Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-direct-slots.html
2016-01-09T04:39:44Z Bike: ha ha
2016-01-09T04:40:18Z eudoxia: direct slots aren't setfable either with closer-mop
2016-01-09T04:40:39Z eudoxia: ah god dammit i'm gonna need reader conditionals for every implementation
2016-01-09T04:40:42Z beach: You can always use REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE with :DIRECT-SLOTS.
2016-01-09T04:40:55Z Bike: But why do you have to setf, I'm not understanding this.
2016-01-09T04:40:59Z eudoxia: hmm, that's a good idea beach
2016-01-09T04:41:18Z eudoxia: Bike: because i can't pass :direct-slots as an initarg in make-instance for some reason
2016-01-09T04:41:27Z beach: This page should tell you what is possible: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/initialization-of-class-metaobjects2.html
2016-01-09T04:41:51Z Bike: :direct-slots shows up in slime for (make-instance 'standard-class ...), at least
2016-01-09T04:42:06Z eudoxia: huh
2016-01-09T04:42:06Z beach: Yes, :DIRECT-SLOTS works.
2016-01-09T04:42:53Z beach: "The :direct-slots argument is a list of canonicalized slot specifications."
2016-01-09T04:43:01Z eudoxia: ah yes i remember the problem
2016-01-09T04:43:18Z eudoxia: it works but throws a strange error
2016-01-09T04:43:38Z beach: "signals"
2016-01-09T04:43:45Z eudoxia: yes, signals
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2016-01-09T04:43:53Z Bike: What's the error?
2016-01-09T04:44:04Z eudoxia: see the :direct-slots initarg takes a list of lists, where each list is a slot specification
2016-01-09T04:44:13Z eudoxia: but what I have here arent lists but actual slot objects
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2016-01-09T04:44:36Z beach: You can't do that.
2016-01-09T04:44:45Z beach: "The :direct-slots argument is a list of canonicalized slot specifications."
2016-01-09T04:45:01Z eudoxia: yes
2016-01-09T04:45:06Z eudoxia: thus the state of sin
2016-01-09T04:45:12Z Bike: Can you not alter the deserialization to not make slot objects?
2016-01-09T04:45:21Z eudoxia: probably
2016-01-09T04:45:32Z Bike: also, that's kind of weird. i would have expected make-instance to take actual slots.
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2016-01-09T04:45:48Z eudoxia: yeah, shame
2016-01-09T04:46:40Z Bike: beach: on the subject or raising signaled throws, check out this trainwreck https://coderwall.com/p/lhkkug/don-t-confuse-ruby-s-throw-statement-with-raise
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2016-01-09T04:48:42Z beach: Bike: Thanks.  Similar problem I see.
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2016-01-09T04:49:55Z beach: eudoxia: I suppose you could convert your slot metaobjects back to canonical slot specifications.  As I recall, the identity of a slot metaobject is not important.
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2016-01-09T04:51:49Z eudoxia: beach: oh, christ, I don't think so. part of the slot specification to slot object transformation includes an (apply #'make-instance some-list)
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2016-01-09T04:52:15Z eudoxia: turning that back into a list is like turning ash into the high school notebooks i burnt after i graduated
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2016-01-09T04:52:39Z Bike: well, yeah, but it's probably just a standard slot?
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2016-01-09T04:53:06Z eudoxia: it's a custom subclass
2016-01-09T04:53:29Z Bike: o.
2016-01-09T04:53:36Z eudoxia: ah, fug it
2016-01-09T04:54:00Z eudoxia: i'll just restore it to some other not-quite-a-standard-subclass-instance class
2016-01-09T04:54:28Z Bike: i would first rearrange things so that you just keep the class name and initargs list, and pass that to the class make-instance.
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2016-01-09T04:54:32Z eudoxia: see, the broader context of this is, i'm storing class definitions into files so i can diff them, because the class definitions represent SQL tables and the diffs represent database migrations
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2016-01-09T04:54:56Z eudoxia: so i don't really need to restore the classes from their serialized representation for anything other than diffing
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2016-01-09T07:40:44Z moore33: beach: You might find this interesting in terms of graphical apps and layers:http://teespring.engineering/posts/how-teespring-uses-canvas-svg-dom-to-design-tshirts/
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2016-01-09T07:42:06Z moore33: |3b|: morning
2016-01-09T07:42:15Z beach: Hello moore33
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2016-01-09T07:43:40Z moore33: beach: I'm up early on a Saturday cuz Isaac is doing last minute work on a big report. That's my boy!
2016-01-09T07:43:56Z beach: Heh.  I see.
2016-01-09T07:44:03Z beach: Is it due this afternoon?
2016-01-09T07:44:31Z p_l: ... or 23:59 yesterday?
2016-01-09T07:45:24Z beach: moore33: Thanks for the link.
2016-01-09T07:45:29Z p_l might be projecting a bit from his own uni experiences ;)
2016-01-09T07:46:02Z beach: Unless time flies very fast, Isaac is still a bit too young for university projects.
2016-01-09T07:46:38Z p_l: beach: ... ah, then due today or monday morning
2016-01-09T07:46:49Z moore33: beach: Monday morning, but it needs to get to the printer today. Report de stage.
2016-01-09T07:47:02Z p_l: took me till university that I started to consider deadlines to be suggestions ;)
2016-01-09T07:47:16Z moore33: SVG is pretty cool.
2016-01-09T07:48:09Z beach: Looks that way.  Isn't it inspired by PostScript?
2016-01-09T07:48:15Z moore33: LibreOffice is a POS. I'm about ready to refuse help on the next project unless he does it in LaTeX :)
2016-01-09T07:48:31Z p_l: moore33: LyX might be usable gateway drug
2016-01-09T07:48:44Z jackdaniel: good morning o/
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2016-01-09T07:48:51Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2016-01-09T07:48:58Z moore33: beach: That and pdf, esp the transparency stuff.
2016-01-09T07:49:08Z beach: Yes, I see.
2016-01-09T07:49:10Z p_l: beach: I think SVG has more in common with PDF
2016-01-09T07:49:53Z beach: OK.
2016-01-09T07:50:10Z moore33: p_l: That's an idea...
2016-01-09T07:51:09Z beach: moore33: Did I tell you about the huge bug I found in McCLIM?  It only affects people using a lot of keyboard shortcuts (like ESA does) and who have turned their CapsLock key into an additional control key.
2016-01-09T07:51:23Z p_l: beach: easy way to check - PostScript is essentially turing-complete language that happens to have drawing in standard library, while PDF is much more rigid vector drawing description format
2016-01-09T07:51:56Z beach: moore33: Despite the CapsLock being a control, McCLIM still treats it as CapsLoc, so C-x comes across as C-X which is usually not bound.
2016-01-09T07:52:19Z beach: p_l: Right.  I read up on both standards.  But not on SVG (yet).
2016-01-09T07:52:36Z p_l: :)
2016-01-09T07:52:44Z moore33: beach:sigh
2016-01-09T07:53:07Z beach is reminded of his "PreScript" exercise, using Common Lisp macros to do PostScript-like graphics.
2016-01-09T07:53:11Z p_l: beach: sometimes I forget I'm in #lisp, and people here are used to reading the standards ;)
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2016-01-09T07:54:10Z beach: Yeah, it's a occupational hazard.
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2016-01-09T07:57:58Z moore33: beach: then there's the matter of the compose key, international keyboards, etc.
2016-01-09T07:58:08Z beach: I know :(
2016-01-09T07:58:19Z beach: I completely redesigned that in CLIMatis.
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2016-01-09T07:58:33Z beach: I think we need a first-class "input-method" abstraction.
2016-01-09T07:58:41Z moore33: Yeah
2016-01-09T07:59:13Z beach: Except that it can easily become over-engineered if one takes into account any kind of gesture as input and output.
2016-01-09T07:59:21Z beach: So I need to think about how to accomplish it.
2016-01-09T07:59:33Z moore33: beach: does current Climatis have a working example that outputs text? Graphics?
2016-01-09T07:59:42Z beach: Input methods should also be possible to put in a cascade I think.
2016-01-09T07:59:54Z beach: moore33: Yes, it does.
2016-01-09T08:00:05Z moore33: great
2016-01-09T08:00:13Z beach: There is a calendar example that worked last time I looked.
2016-01-09T08:00:24Z beach: And I regularly use the "Clueless" inspector myself.
2016-01-09T08:00:51Z beach: Yesterday, I wrote a McCLIM GUI with one command starting Clueless on the application frame so that I could inspect it.
2016-01-09T08:00:54Z beach: Works great.
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2016-01-09T08:04:48Z ai2d7: how I can define a local variable ?
2016-01-09T08:04:53Z ai2d7: without let
2016-01-09T08:05:03Z beach: Why do you not want to use LET?
2016-01-09T08:05:14Z ai2d7: let is not sugar ?
2016-01-09T08:05:15Z beach: LET is the typical way to define a local variable.
2016-01-09T08:05:21Z jackdaniel: ((lambda (variable) …) value)
2016-01-09T08:05:28Z beach: clhs let
2016-01-09T08:05:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2016-01-09T08:05:37Z beach: It's a special operator.
2016-01-09T08:05:48Z beach: So it is at the very basis of the Common Lisp language.
2016-01-09T08:05:59Z beach: ai2d7: Again, why do you not want to use LET?
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2016-01-09T08:08:16Z ai2d7: beach: so let is not a syntactic sugar in cl ?
2016-01-09T08:08:40Z Zhivago: Not for the purpose of code-walking, at any rate.
2016-01-09T08:08:47Z beach: No, like I said, it is a special operator.  The term "syntactic sugar" doesn't exist in Common Lisp.
2016-01-09T08:08:58Z Zhivago: (which is all special-operator is meaningful with respect to anyhow)
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2016-01-09T08:13:48Z beach: ai2d7: So, you just aren't going to answer my question?
2016-01-09T08:15:04Z ai2d7: beach: sorry, I was thinking it's a sugar, so I'd not likt to use it, my apologize
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2016-01-09T08:15:58Z beach: If by "syntactic sugar" you mean macros and such, they represent important abstractions.  So if you want to become a good programmer, you should probably learn to like "syntactic sugar".
2016-01-09T08:16:39Z jackdaniel: "Good notation eliminates thought." – Eric Siggia
2016-01-09T08:17:01Z ai2d7: beach: see this http://paste.ubuntu.com/14445343/
2016-01-09T08:17:21Z ai2d7: beach: I don't understand why it's different
2016-01-09T08:18:40Z beach: ai2d7: Why what is different from what else?
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2016-01-09T08:19:31Z ai2d7: beach: every (funcall (als)) get the same answer 2, but (defvar ss (als)) and (funcall ss) get different answers
2016-01-09T08:19:47Z jackdaniel: als returns a closure (each call of als returns a new closure). If you store it in a variable each next funcall of stored closure preserves same `m'
2016-01-09T08:20:02Z beach: ai2d7: In the first case, the expression (als) is evaluated twice.  In the second case it is evaluated once.
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2016-01-09T08:20:31Z beach: ai2d7: When you have general questions like that, you are better off not addressing me personally.  I may disappear at any time.
2016-01-09T08:21:42Z beach: ai2d7: Do you know any other programming languages?
2016-01-09T08:22:01Z ai2d7: yes, python and c
2016-01-09T08:22:33Z beach: OK, then imagine int x = 0; int f() { x++;}
2016-01-09T08:23:02Z Zhivago: Python supports lexical closure.
2016-01-09T08:23:08Z beach: Oh, OK.
2016-01-09T08:23:09Z jackdaniel: ↑
2016-01-09T08:23:21Z beach: ai2d7: Zhivago can explain this better than I can then.
2016-01-09T08:24:35Z beach: My example was not so great anyway.
2016-01-09T08:25:15Z ai2d7: eval twice or once make me confused
2016-01-09T08:25:38Z ai2d7: when it's twice or onec ?
2016-01-09T08:25:55Z Bike: also, that has nothing to do with let syntax. you can get the same effect with (defun als () ((lambda (m) (lambda () (setq m (+ m 2)) m)) 0)).
2016-01-09T08:25:57Z Zhivago: http://ideone.com/kOxvQ1
2016-01-09T08:26:59Z resttime: (als) creates a new "box" which has 0 "apples" and a "button" that adds 2 new "apples" to the "box" every time that "button" is "pushed."
2016-01-09T08:27:19Z resttime: (funcall (als)) pushes the button of the newly created box.
2016-01-09T08:27:35Z resttime: Every time (funcall (als)) is done a new box is made and the button of this box is pushed.
2016-01-09T08:27:58Z resttime: (defvar ss (als)) alternatively saves the box as ss
2016-01-09T08:28:00Z Zhivago: Does that python example make sense?
2016-01-09T08:28:42Z moore33: Gotta go fight fires
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2016-01-09T08:30:49Z ai2d7: Zhivago: I understand the example, but I need think eval once or twice
2016-01-09T08:31:13Z ai2d7: and my english is not good
2016-01-09T08:31:18Z ai2d7: sorry
2016-01-09T08:33:32Z Zhivago: Here is a fairly literal translation into CL http://ideone.com/CLQ1IS -- although normally you would use lambda rather than flet there.
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2016-01-09T08:45:37Z beach: ai2d7: To "evaluate" means to compute the value.  If you call a function twice, you may not get the same result as you would if you call it once, store the value, and use it later.
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2016-01-09T08:46:36Z ai2d7: als return a closure (lambda () (setq m (+ 2 m)) m)
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2016-01-09T08:46:47Z ai2d7: and (als) return m ?
2016-01-09T08:47:00Z ai2d7: and ss is not eq (als) ?
2016-01-09T08:47:05Z jackdaniel: ai2d7: als returns a closure (let (m) (lambda () …))
2016-01-09T08:47:15Z jackdaniel: and let is preserved between this closure calls
2016-01-09T08:47:19Z jackdaniel: s/let/m/
2016-01-09T08:47:41Z jackdaniel: each call to (als) creates new closure, but if you store (als) value in a variable
2016-01-09T08:47:50Z ai2d7: jackdaniel: (defvar ss (als)) and ss'value is not (als) ?
2016-01-09T08:47:52Z jackdaniel: then when you refere to this variable you use the same closure
2016-01-09T08:48:23Z jackdaniel: ai2d7: take function: int *xxx() { return new int[16]; }
2016-01-09T08:48:25Z beach: ai2d7: That's correct.  Each time you call (als) a new object is returned.
2016-01-09T08:48:29Z jackdaniel: each call to xxx returns new table
2016-01-09T08:49:16Z jackdaniel: and als returns a new closure on each call
2016-01-09T08:49:32Z jackdaniel: and closure cares it's own "m" variable
2016-01-09T08:53:04Z ai2d7: each call (als) return a new closure, and store the closure into a variable, and ?
2016-01-09T08:54:05Z beach: ai2d7: Each call (als) returns a new closure that may ore may not be stored into a variable.
2016-01-09T08:54:44Z ai2d7: ok, if I would store it into a variable and ?
2016-01-09T08:54:46Z beach: ai2d7: If you do (funcall (als)) then the closure that (als) returns is not stored in a variable.  It is passed as an argument to funcall which calls the closure and then discards it.
2016-01-09T08:55:08Z jackdaniel: ai2d7: if you store it in a variable, when you call it (this variable)
2016-01-09T08:55:20Z jackdaniel: you refere to the same closure, which has "m" preserved between calls
2016-01-09T08:55:40Z jackdaniel: so if this closure increments `m', then next call "sees" incremented `m'
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2016-01-09T09:12:37Z beach: jackdaniel: ai2d7 must have fainted.  It is easy to be overwhelmed by such fantastic technology. :)
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2016-01-09T09:13:56Z jackdaniel: beach: yeah, apparently so. I hope my examples weren't that bad though :p
2016-01-09T09:14:09Z beach: Not bad at all.
2016-01-09T09:15:06Z ai2d7: yes, it's fantastic
2016-01-09T09:15:56Z ai2d7: I mean closure, I don't see this word in other lanuguage
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2016-01-09T09:16:32Z contrapunctus: it's mentioned...but not often.
2016-01-09T09:16:53Z beach: ai2d7: Zhivago says Python has closures, and you know Python.
2016-01-09T09:17:40Z Th30n: There's an old saying, objects are poor man's closures.
2016-01-09T09:17:59Z ai2d7: yes, I know a little python, and there's not much about closure on python's introduce
2016-01-09T09:18:27Z beach: Th30n: With CLOS, it's often the other way around.
2016-01-09T09:18:28Z Th30n: ai2d7: Because python didn't have closures initially.
2016-01-09T09:19:11Z Th30n: ai2d7: You had to fake them by using keyword arguments in local functions and lambdas. Setting the default keyword value to something in lexical scope.
2016-01-09T09:19:50Z resttime: There's another old saying, closures are a poor man's object.
2016-01-09T09:20:40Z beach: resttime: That's what I meant by "the other way around".
2016-01-09T09:21:08Z Th30n: beach: Yep, CLOS is probably the only OO implementation that I like.
2016-01-09T09:21:10Z ai2d7: actually I don't like OOP, even through I use them, but I don't often create class
2016-01-09T09:21:34Z resttime: beach: Whoops, missed that which means time for sleep.
2016-01-09T09:21:36Z beach: ai2d7: The concept of a closure is fundamental in programming: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_%28computer_programming%29
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2016-01-09T09:21:39Z jackdaniel: There's yet another old saying: side effects are bad for the cache
2016-01-09T09:21:42Z jackdaniel: :p
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2016-01-09T09:23:03Z beach: ai2d7: If I were you, I would stop having (negative) opinions about things that you still need to learn, such as "syntactic sugar" and "OOP" if you want to become a good programmer.  It is much better to learn about those things first, and then have an opinion, which would be an informed one at that point.
2016-01-09T09:23:28Z ai2d7: you're right
2016-01-09T09:24:15Z ai2d7: my some opinions are not good
2016-01-09T09:25:08Z beach: ai2d7: People who hang out here are typically very knowledgeable, so it is preferable to have informed opinions when you discuss with them.
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2016-01-09T09:28:06Z ai2d7: actually there's a puzzle called yin-yang puzzle make me confused about closure
2016-01-09T09:29:02Z beach: Interestingly, one of the first examples on the Wikipedia page on closures is in Python.
2016-01-09T09:29:48Z ai2d7: it seems yin-yang puzzle is not a cl stuff, so I don't ask it here
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2016-01-09T09:30:02Z beach: That Wikipedia page looks like it would be a good idea for you to read.
2016-01-09T09:30:32Z Th30n: beach: Yeah, I laughed a bit seeing the first example in Python. But then again, at work we use closures regularly in Python.
2016-01-09T09:30:36Z ai2d7: I read wikipedia page about yin yang puzzle , but I don't think it's enought detail
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2016-01-09T09:32:53Z ai2d7: it use continuations, and it don't mention closure on the wikipedia
2016-01-09T09:33:34Z ai2d7: language is a really problem for me, my bad english
2016-01-09T09:34:06Z Th30n: ai2d7: continuation is a different concept from closure
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2016-01-09T09:36:25Z ai2d7: Th30n: yes, it's different, is there a possible one variable save the continuation and the variable is free variable in closure?
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2016-01-09T09:37:35Z ai2d7: like the upper example, I don't know what's the good name of m
2016-01-09T09:38:06Z Th30n: Ugh, your English really makes the question hard to understand. But if I get it correctly, then the answer would be yes.
2016-01-09T09:38:25Z ai2d7: closure: some free variables and inner functions
2016-01-09T09:38:56Z Th30n: ai2d7: Yes, and the variable gets the value from the scope of function definition.
2016-01-09T09:39:51Z ai2d7: Th30n: like the upper example, so m can store the continuation ?
2016-01-09T09:40:12Z Th30n: What upper example? Wikipedia on closures?
2016-01-09T09:40:27Z ai2d7: Th30n: I mean my example
2016-01-09T09:40:45Z ai2d7: Th30n: m of here http://paste.ubuntu.com/14445343/
2016-01-09T09:40:53Z Th30n: Oh, I came late. I don't have that in my logs
2016-01-09T09:41:35Z ai2d7: m is variable in closure, and it's a free variable to the inner function in closure
2016-01-09T09:41:40Z Th30n: Oh yeah, so for example you say (let ((m some-function)))
2016-01-09T09:41:50Z Th30n: and you use m inside the inner function
2016-01-09T09:42:11Z ai2d7: so this m can store continuation ?
2016-01-09T09:42:48Z Th30n: Yes, functions are first class. You can treat them as data. A variable can store any value, this includes functions.
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2016-01-09T09:43:42Z ai2d7: continuation can store what the next to do, and m in closure can store the something, so if m store continuation, I think it's fantastic
2016-01-09T09:44:04Z Th30n: Yep
2016-01-09T09:44:43Z jackdaniel: where did the continuation talk came from? :p it's not available in CL standard (scheme has continuations)
2016-01-09T09:45:12Z Th30n: jackdaniel: I don't know, when I came continuations transformed into closures. So we discussed that, it went back to conts.
2016-01-09T09:45:38Z ai2d7: like there's a function, it display 1 2 3, and it display 1 at the first time I call it, and it display 2 at the second time, and it display 3 at the third time
2016-01-09T09:46:43Z jackdaniel: ai2d7: I know what continuations are, I'm just saying they're not covered by common lisp standard :) cc is a great concept though
2016-01-09T09:46:49Z ai2d7: like you call the function at the first time, it just execute 1/3
2016-01-09T09:47:09Z ai2d7: and you call it again, it execute 1/3 to 2/3
2016-01-09T09:47:31Z ai2d7: and you call it at the third time, it will execute 2/3 to 3/3
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2016-01-09T09:47:56Z jackdaniel wonders if ai2d7 read his last statement
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2016-01-09T09:48:07Z Th30n: jackdaniel: I think he is explaining it to himself.
2016-01-09T09:48:07Z ai2d7: is that wonderful ?
2016-01-09T09:48:29Z Th30n: It sure is, especially when you discover the advanced uses which make some things a lot easier.
2016-01-09T09:49:26Z ai2d7: 1/3 means 1/3 of whole program
2016-01-09T09:49:53Z jackdaniel: ai2d7: you may also get back in time and call the function from the state between 1/3 and 2/3 after 3/3 ;)
2016-01-09T09:52:15Z ai2d7: store the continuation in variable of the closure, then store closure into another variable, each call this variable I call jump to the continuation
2016-01-09T09:52:34Z ai2d7: the different continuation
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2016-01-09T11:03:38Z jackdaniel: I wonder how feasible would it be to use ISLISP as a bootstrap language for CL implementation
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2016-01-09T11:05:49Z jackdaniel: or even as a core for the implementation
2016-01-09T11:09:12Z beach: For bootstrapping, it will probably be better than C or C++, but not as good as Common Lisp itself.
2016-01-09T11:10:20Z beach: What made you consider using something other than Common Lisp for bootstrapping?
2016-01-09T11:11:37Z jackdaniel: I hope you remember our talk about bootstraping from some months ago and CL0 digression. I wonder how the whole thing could be arranged in a modular way
2016-01-09T11:12:07Z jackdaniel: like C -> CL0 -> CL1 -> ISLISP -> CommonLisp -> Additional extensions
2016-01-09T11:12:51Z beach: Actually, I don't remember that discussion. :(
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2016-01-09T11:13:49Z beach: I guess I didn't see the point back then, and I don't see it now.
2016-01-09T11:14:31Z jackdaniel: uhm
2016-01-09T11:15:18Z beach: I there some idea behind all this that the languages in the sequence are gradually more complex?
2016-01-09T11:17:37Z jackdaniel: it's easier to port the less complex parts for new architectures (and easier to optimize it). Also I find modular systems more elegant then big monolitic systems and I think they are easier to maintain. It's just a loose idea though
2016-01-09T11:18:41Z beach: I still don't get it.
2016-01-09T11:18:58Z beach: I don't see how this sequence of different languages implies modularity.
2016-01-09T11:19:34Z beach: I also don't see how you will automatically benefit from optimization in a preceding language in the sequence for subsequent languages in the sequence.
2016-01-09T11:20:55Z beach: All I see is that for writing the optimizer for Common Lisp with your method, you have to use a language that is different and potentially less convenient for the task.
2016-01-09T11:21:01Z beach: But maybe I am missing something.
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2016-01-09T11:21:24Z jackdaniel: it's mere an intuition, I believe trying to explain it (without a solid thinking first on my side) could do more harm then good
2016-01-09T11:21:37Z beach: Hmm, OK.
2016-01-09T11:21:48Z beach: Perhaps you are thinking of translating Common Lisp to ISLISP, to ...?
2016-01-09T11:22:17Z beach: It occurred to me that this might be the case, given that you are the maintainer of an implementation that translates Common Lisp to some other language.
2016-01-09T11:22:33Z Zhivago: Earlier optimizations can harm later optimizations, as optimizations generally discard information they find irrelevant.
2016-01-09T11:24:11Z jackdaniel: hrm, it's more like writing CL in ISLISP after writing ISLISP in some smaller language going down to C rather then translating
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2016-01-09T11:24:44Z Zhivago: Why not just write CL in CL?
2016-01-09T11:24:46Z jackdaniel: ecl for now it's bootstrapped from ecl_min (which is small lisp interpreter written in C)
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2016-01-09T11:25:04Z Zhivago: Otherwise you get stuck in some lengthy chain of random languages.
2016-01-09T11:27:48Z jackdaniel: lowest common denominator in today computers (in my unerstanding) is C. This chain is just a matter of arranging gradually CL concepts in source code (answering why not just write CL in CL)
2016-01-09T11:28:18Z streamOfConsciou: maybe the lcd is ida pro xd
2016-01-09T11:28:40Z streamOfConsciou: ok, just kidding... sorry :)
2016-01-09T11:30:40Z jackdaniel: either way I've got to go. Thanks for food for thought :)
2016-01-09T11:30:48Z jackdaniel: have a nice day o/
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2016-01-09T12:45:55Z shka: hello
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2016-01-09T12:49:10Z synchromesh: shka: hello!
2016-01-09T12:49:26Z shka: so how everyone is doing? ;-)
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2016-01-09T12:49:54Z shka: btw, can anybody please try to explain to me what the heck monad is?
2016-01-09T12:50:32Z shka: i'm trying to find good explanation online, but sadly each and every one is written in some ML-like language
2016-01-09T12:50:39Z shka: which is not what i understand
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2016-01-09T12:52:39Z synchromesh: shka: "All told, a monad in X is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors of X, with product × replaced by composition of endofunctors and unit set by the identity endofunctor." -- http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3870088/a-monad-is-just-a-monoid-in-the-category-of-endofunctors-whats-the-problem
2016-01-09T12:52:49Z shka: thanks
2016-01-09T12:52:55Z shka: that makes perfect sense
2016-01-09T12:53:00Z shka: ;-)
2016-01-09T12:53:29Z synchromesh: shka: Think of it as a jumping-off point for some reading about & around the subject...
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2016-01-09T12:53:54Z shka: aha!
2016-01-09T12:54:13Z shka: so it can be implemented in AOP style
2016-01-09T12:54:15Z synchromesh: shka: AFAICT monads are FP's way of having its functional cake and eating its side-effects too.
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2016-01-09T13:03:45Z shka: synchromesh: i understand that part
2016-01-09T13:03:54Z shka: i just can't figure out how this is implemented
2016-01-09T13:04:56Z synchromesh: shka: I've bought http://haskellbook.com/ and I'm planning to work through it with my kids so hopefully it will enlighten us in due course.
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2016-01-09T13:20:01Z beach: So give me some ideas about what an "input method" would be.  What would some operations be on such a thing?  I mean, it takes "gestures" as input and create other gestures as output, but what is the nature of a "gesture"?  Or at least, what are some examples of gestures, and how would they be represented?
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2016-01-09T13:23:20Z synchromesh: beach: I (day-)dream of an augmented-reality Emacs where I directly manipulate 3D representations of my source code that hover over my desk. I haven't nailed down exactly what the gestures or their representations would be.
2016-01-09T13:23:46Z beach: It's hard stuff, isn't it?
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2016-01-09T13:24:52Z synchromesh: beach: Yeah, but at least today with consumer VR & AR headsets and things like WebVR it's something I could conceivably do now as a Masters-level project, rather than being a complete fantasy.
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2016-01-09T13:25:32Z synchromesh: s/do/have great fun making demos for/
2016-01-09T13:26:33Z beach: Sure.  I am more interested in the abstractions involved.  I can imagine some abstract gestures that I can describe in vague prose, but I am trying to nail down the definitions so that I can represent the stuff in software.
2016-01-09T13:27:32Z synchromesh: Which set of input devices/sensors are you considering initially?
2016-01-09T13:28:24Z beach: I would be happy with keyboard and mouse, but with considerations for typical tactile screens like tablets or phones.
2016-01-09T13:28:40Z synchromesh: One of the problems with VR gestural interfaces will be the "I wasn't raising my hand, I was scratching my nose" issue. You swat away a fly and accidentally rearrange your class hierarchy.
2016-01-09T13:29:04Z beach: That kind of consideration is *way* beyond what I am aiming for.
2016-01-09T13:29:40Z beach: I also don't care to implement all possibilities as long as my abstractions don't make it impossible to do so.
2016-01-09T13:29:48Z synchromesh: Fair enough. :)
2016-01-09T13:30:20Z beach: I can see how to define "input method" with only keyboard input.
2016-01-09T13:30:36Z beach: And I don't even know what it means when a mouse is involved.
2016-01-09T13:30:39Z synchromesh: Tablets offer "scrubbing" and "scribbling"-type gestures that you don't see with mice.
2016-01-09T13:30:50Z beach: Sure.
2016-01-09T13:31:29Z synchromesh: They often seem to be defined in terms of a sort of "visual grammar" with other on-screen objects. Would you need some sort of DSL?
2016-01-09T13:31:32Z beach: There is also the question of more abstract gestures, even with a mouse, say "moving to the left while the middle button is pressed.
2016-01-09T13:32:12Z synchromesh: I appreciate that in Lisp the boundary between "specification", "protocol" and "DSL" is often blurry.
2016-01-09T13:32:20Z beach: Yeah.
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2016-01-09T13:35:19Z synchromesh: Perhaps we'll end up with the "Ex Machina" model -- a "deep learning" neural network trained on YouTube videos and footage of TV weather presenters that just knows every gesture when it sees it.
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2016-01-09T13:36:27Z beach: Maybe so.  But I would be willing to start with a set of clearly-defined gestures.
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2016-01-09T13:47:06Z Zhivago: I use cursive script input on my telephone these days.
2016-01-09T13:47:43Z Zhivago: I suspect that a shift will happen back toward penmanship for fine work, rather than flapping your fingers about.
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2016-01-09T14:00:49Z beach: I'll pass, but others should go ahead if they want to.
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2016-01-09T14:02:51Z beach: Before email was common, I still remember how happy my sister was when I started typing my letters, because then she could just hand them to the other family members, rather than having to decipher my handwriting.
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2016-01-09T14:08:06Z Zhivago: I suspect that your writing would improve if you were using it to talk to a computer. :)
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2016-01-09T14:08:19Z Zhivago: The fast feedback cycle is powerful.
2016-01-09T14:08:23Z beach: I would get cramps in my hand.
2016-01-09T14:08:59Z dto: Xach_: hello. i have a quicklisp question or two, when you have a moment.
2016-01-09T14:09:06Z dto: and good morning beach, Zhivago
2016-01-09T14:09:18Z beach: Hello dto.
2016-01-09T14:09:26Z XachX: dto: yo
2016-01-09T14:09:47Z dto: XachX hello, :) shall we continue on #quicklisp?
2016-01-09T14:10:12Z XachX: I am afraid I don't have much time. Can you ask here and maybe some one can pitch in?
2016-01-09T14:10:37Z dto: sure.
2016-01-09T14:10:44Z dto: i'll catch you later on :)
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2016-01-09T14:13:48Z dto: so, i have separated my quadtree and collision detection from Xelf out into a small library called Quadrille. https://gitlab.com/dto/quadrille/tree/master    and i'll probably add my A-star pathfinding to Quadrille as well
2016-01-09T14:14:58Z dto: i've got most of the generics and docstrings i need, as well as a quick users guide in the source, but i'd like to write some more documentation and make it into a nice page like http://xelf.me/reference.html
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2016-01-09T14:16:10Z dto: the pathfinding and collision detection are both very fast.
2016-01-09T14:17:46Z dto: so my question is, if i follow the guidelines and polish things up very nicely, is that something you might be interested in for QL? I have also some new code for minimal UPnP client that talks to home router server to set up port forwards for games. https://gitlab.com/dto/xelf/blob/master/upnp.lisp which needs some work but I would like to make that into a mini lib too.
2016-01-09T14:18:28Z dto: no rush on answering this. just food for thought.
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2016-01-09T14:19:51Z synchromesh: dto: FWIW they all sound like very worthy QL projects to me.
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2016-01-09T14:22:40Z dto: cool synchromesh well that's 1 vote :)
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2016-01-09T14:26:59Z beach: I was under the impression that Xach didn't care about the utility of the code as long as it compiles correctly.  No?
2016-01-09T14:27:05Z mood: dto: Add another vote from me. Both sound useful
2016-01-09T14:28:01Z beach: Sure, me too.  It's not my domain, but it looks complete and nice.
2016-01-09T14:28:42Z scymtym_: beach: some minimal meta-data (mainly license) and has to compile in at least two implementations, i think
2016-01-09T14:29:06Z beach: OK, makes sense.
2016-01-09T14:30:23Z dto: are the quicklisp requirements listed somewhere?
2016-01-09T14:31:14Z mood: dto: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects#to-add-a-project-to-quicklisp
2016-01-09T14:31:57Z dto: oh thanks for this mood , looks perfect
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2016-01-09T14:34:29Z mood: dto: np. Getting something into QL is really quite easy. I look forward to giving your libraries a spin
2016-01-09T14:34:59Z dto: mood: cool! :)
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2016-01-09T17:51:21Z pjb: mordocai: see http://paste.lisp.org/display/304839
2016-01-09T17:51:36Z pjb: Oops, sorry.
2016-01-09T17:51:41Z pjb: pseudo_sue: see http://paste.lisp.org/display/304839
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2016-01-09T18:21:42Z pjb: pseudo_sue: if you insist on hash-tables, you can write a macro: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304839#1
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2016-01-09T18:25:28Z splittist: Is the natural implementation of a push-down automaton in lisp simply function calls?
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2016-01-09T18:31:32Z pjb: jackdaniel: given that there are only a couple of ISLISP implementation on a much smaller range of systems, I would advise you to booktstrap ISLISP in CL instead of CL in ISLISP.  Also, implementing ISLISP in CL is rather trivial.
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2016-01-09T18:34:30Z pjb: jackdaniel: ease of porting is not function of the size of a program, but on its architecture.  A program that is well modularlized and layered, with all the platform specific dependencies well enclosed in definite packages is what makes it easy to port.
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2016-01-09T18:36:47Z pjb: shka: monads, in CL are method combinations.
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2016-01-09T18:37:04Z pjb: clhs define-method-combination
2016-01-09T18:37:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_4.htm
2016-01-09T18:37:10Z pjb: this let you define a monad.
2016-01-09T18:38:32Z pjb: beach: Garnet handles gesture input.
2016-01-09T18:39:25Z vsync: pjb: i wonder if this will help me understand monads
2016-01-09T18:39:30Z vsync: i keep trying and getting confused
2016-01-09T18:39:40Z vsync: but i understand method combinations
2016-01-09T18:40:28Z pjb: beach: of course, in Garnet basically the only "gesture" the computers could record were 2D mouse movements.  Nowadays, anything you do with a handheld computer can be considered a gesture, with all the sensors involved: humidity, barometric pressure, 3D accelerometer, 2D screen touches and movements, etc.
2016-01-09T18:40:59Z pjb: vsync: http://dorophone.blogspot.fr/2011/04/deep-emacs-part-1.html
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2016-01-09T18:43:04Z pjb: beach: you may also add eye movement (captured eg. with infrared sensors or cameras), body movement (captured eg. with kinect or wifi localization), etc.  Any input source originating from the user.
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2016-01-09T18:44:07Z vsync: elisp, interesting choice
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2016-01-09T18:44:22Z pjb: beach: there are 6D "mouses", where you have a usual 2D mouse, that you can lift up and down too (so 3D), and that you can also rotate on three more axis: 6D.
2016-01-09T18:44:55Z Jonsky: So much to read, but really thank you again pjb
2016-01-09T18:45:01Z pjb: beach: there are styluses for pads that capture the pressure in addition to the 2D movement.
2016-01-09T18:45:11Z pjb: Jonsky: sure. The Internet is big.
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2016-01-09T18:48:37Z pjb: beach: with devices like kinect or wifi localizators, you could take into account that the human body has 244 degrees of freedom.  Ultimately, a "gesture" would be a temporal sequence of a vector in R^244.  Happily, the various devices project to vector spaces with less dimensions, and more semantically-loaded sequences ("mouseDown" "mouseUp").
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2016-01-09T18:51:20Z pjb: splittist: push-down automatons are mathematical objects.  They're not meant only to be "executed".
2016-01-09T18:51:22Z moore33: I want my computer to reboot when I scratch my butt.
2016-01-09T18:51:49Z pjb: splittist: therefore the data structure you will use will as always, depend on the algorithms you want to implement, on your push-down automatons.
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2016-01-09T18:52:32Z pjb: moore33: it's possible. with this: http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/06/04/wi-fi-signals-enable-gesture-recognition-throughout-entire-home/ http://wisee.cs.washington.edu/wisee_paper.pdf
2016-01-09T18:53:10Z pjb: moore33: notice that the gesture could have a different meaning depending on the room you're in, the wall you're facing, whether there's somebody else before or behind you, looking at your or not, etc.
2016-01-09T18:53:29Z moore33: pjb:The future is now!
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2016-01-09T19:00:33Z beach can now see that he didn't get the problem of "input methods" across at all.  Oh, well.
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2016-01-09T23:39:42Z hkian: Anyone have experience with LFE? I'm an experienced CL programmer, but I want to use Erlang for a new project. Was thinking about perhaps leverage LFE so that I wouldn't have to give up my parens.
2016-01-09T23:41:23Z hkian: I know CL has some actor libraries, etc, but I really need the high fault tolerance of Erlang/OTP. It's a backend for reading from a LARGE number of field sensors.
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2016-01-09T23:53:11Z mordocai: hkian: Unfortunately i don't know LFE and LFE is off topic here due to the channel being CL only.
2016-01-09T23:53:19Z mordocai: So you might not get an answer
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2016-01-09T23:53:37Z hkian: For sure. Just thought I'd ask
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2016-01-10T00:01:27Z hkian: Anyone know if there's a way to directly inject JS symbols in Parenscript? It's kinda annoying to hafta do things like (ps (new -foo)) to get "new Foo();". I find myself often having to change my readtable just to work with Parenscript.
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2016-01-10T00:03:49Z hkian: I find Parenscript is like 80% adequate for my needs, but I have to fight it for that last 20%. Especially if I want to leverage ES6/7.
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2016-01-10T00:08:13Z hkian: Kinda makes me wanna write a replacement for Parenscript. I've already got too many side projects tho!
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2016-01-10T00:16:01Z Bike: manual says -foo is what you're supposed to do to get Foo. I'm not sure that |Foo| or whatever would be much of an improvement...
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2016-01-10T00:19:51Z hkian: Yeah, I'm aware of that. However, I want to be able to do something like (ps:ps (ps:new (ps:js-sym "Foo")))
2016-01-10T00:21:14Z hkian: If you're trying to interact with code that follows different capitalization conventions with WeirdSYMsLikeTHis then you find yourself doing things like -weird-s-y-m-s-like-t-his that can hurt readability
2016-01-10T00:21:47Z Bike: yeah, i see what you mean.
2016-01-10T00:22:09Z hkian: I might just write a read macro that will take a string and spit out the correct mangled PS symbol
2016-01-10T00:22:17Z Bike: if i'm understanding parenscript correctly, that might best be done through... that.
2016-01-10T00:23:00Z hkian: PS doesn't have a JS-SYM or any mechanism for directly injecting symbols, AFAIK
2016-01-10T00:23:41Z Bike: i'm not s ure if having it as a function/special form would even be possible with how this seems to work.
2016-01-10T00:24:05Z hkian: Yeah you'd have to hack Parenscript
2016-01-10T00:24:14Z hkian: And modify it quite extensively to support that
2016-01-10T00:24:45Z hkian: Might just be easier to do #js"WeirdSYM" => -weird-s-y-m
2016-01-10T00:24:54Z Bike: indeed.
2016-01-10T00:25:26Z Zhivago: Why not just |Foo|?
2016-01-10T00:27:12Z Bike: ...oh, the js symbol conversion stuff is only applied if the symbol's all uppercase or starts with a symbol. doy.
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2016-01-10T00:34:46Z hkian: Zhivago: That works, but not for everything.
2016-01-10T00:36:34Z Bike: what wouldn't it work for?
2016-01-10T00:39:30Z hkian: |DOM|
2016-01-10T00:39:44Z hkian: IIRC
2016-01-10T00:39:50Z hkian: Don't have my lisp env on hand
2016-01-10T00:40:34Z Bike: because it would get interpreted by parenscript? don't you just do *dom* or something?
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2016-01-10T00:50:22Z hkian: Yes, you'd have to use *dom*
2016-01-10T00:50:49Z hkian: Now try something like ReactDOM
2016-01-10T00:51:00Z hkian: You'd have to do -react-d-o-m
2016-01-10T00:51:25Z Bike: |ReactDOM| should work.
2016-01-10T00:52:34Z janky: I wrote a function to process files, and i'm trying to figure out where some error handling code should live.   right now, if I want to process a series of files and my function runs into some kind of error, I'd like to simply skip that file and come back to it.  the concept of skipping a file seems to depend on some understanding that we are looping through a list of files
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2016-01-10T00:58:00Z |3b|: janky: not really, it is just as useful to skip a single file
2016-01-10T00:58:16Z |3b|: for example loading an optional config file or something
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2016-01-10T01:01:22Z |3b|: though with CL condition system, you can split it into layers, and have the inner part provide options like skipping rest of file, or returning a specific value instead of what would have been read from file, or whatever, and then outer part can decide which is appropriate for a particular use
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2016-01-10T01:05:55Z |3b|: then the loop could add options like skipping the rest of the list, skipping that file, wait then retry, etc
2016-01-10T01:11:40Z janky: hmm. ok thanks, I'll look into it in more detail
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2016-01-10T01:21:47Z hkian: Ah you're right. It |symbol| works for mixed case
2016-01-10T01:21:59Z hkian: But not for single case
2016-01-10T01:22:27Z hkian: So that |DOM| is always rendered "dom" but |fooDOM| => "fooDOM"
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2016-01-10T01:28:25Z Zhivago: I predict that it is that all upper-case that is catching the default behaviour.
2016-01-10T01:28:59Z hkian: That would make sense
2016-01-10T01:30:04Z Zhivago: Having an option to turn off that magic might be the simplest approach.
2016-01-10T01:30:08Z hkian: I've never bothered to get my mind around READTABLE-CASE stuff. Mostly because the casing of symbols never made any difference to me. However, it becomes necessary when doing stuff with ParenScript
2016-01-10T01:30:12Z hkian: There is
2016-01-10T01:30:43Z hkian: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert)
2016-01-10T01:31:02Z Zhivago: I mean the parenscript magic.
2016-01-10T01:31:19Z hkian: Ah yes. That's what I was talking about earlier.
2016-01-10T01:31:33Z hkian: I wish I could just directly inject a JS symbol
2016-01-10T01:32:10Z hkian: Something like (ps:js-sym "MySymBOL")
2016-01-10T01:32:46Z hkian: It's not THAT big of a deal. I'd rather have ES6/7 support before that.
2016-01-10T01:33:12Z |3b|: i think it does some variable renaming to get lexical scope, so injecting raw symbols would be risky
2016-01-10T01:33:24Z hkian: True
2016-01-10T01:34:18Z hkian: I have a PS REPL that runs on NodeJs inside of SBCL.
2016-01-10T01:34:25Z hkian: That I've been playing with
2016-01-10T01:34:40Z hkian: So I'm pretty new to PS and messing around with it
2016-01-10T01:34:42Z |3b| would probably just add an option to override the automatic translation for specific symbols, so you could specify once that my-symbol is "MySymBOL" rather than typing |MySymBOL| every time
2016-01-10T01:35:02Z hkian: |3b| that seems reasonable
2016-01-10T01:35:16Z hkian: https://github.com/helmutkian/cl-node
2016-01-10T01:35:22Z hkian: That's something I've been working on
2016-01-10T01:35:46Z hkian: Embeds NodeJs within a CL runtime
2016-01-10T01:36:24Z hkian: Still very rough. But I have been able to get an HTTP server running in NodeJs with the route handlers written in CL.
2016-01-10T01:36:53Z hkian: It's mostly for doing server-side rendering of React -- that was the original use case
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2016-01-10T01:47:24Z Zhivago: Why embed rather than communicate?
2016-01-10T01:48:15Z hkian: Because, why not?
2016-01-10T01:48:41Z Zhivago: Because of not having complicated and unusual failure cases due to being unable to manage resources such as memory properly?
2016-01-10T01:49:18Z hkian: Yes, memory management becomes an issue
2016-01-10T01:49:40Z hkian: It's much easier & safer to just communicate over a socket
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2016-01-10T01:50:46Z hkian: But it's more fun to hack together a franken CL/Node environment
2016-01-10T01:52:46Z hkian: I've used EdgeJs in production. Which is a similar project for Node and .NET . There were many, many, many headaches.
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2016-01-10T01:55:27Z hkian: But it's interesting to expose state between two run times. You can't share state thru communication. Which safer, yes. But if you're manipulating LARGE objects, it can be problematic to serialize/deserialize constantly
2016-01-10T01:56:26Z hkian: *which is safer
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2016-01-10T02:06:41Z |3b|: just put all your state in a third process :)
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2016-01-10T02:07:28Z hkian: |3b|: How does that do it?
2016-01-10T02:07:45Z hkian: By do it, I mean expose state to both runtimes?
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2016-01-10T02:11:49Z |3b|: database is a common way
2016-01-10T02:11:55Z phoe_krk: (defun make-board () (make-list 5 :initial-element (make-list 5 :initial-element :_))) <- that makes the generated lists share structure, which isn't what I want.
2016-01-10T02:12:15Z hkian: |3b| I get what you're saying
2016-01-10T02:12:22Z |3b|: (though admittedly not appropriate for everything)
2016-01-10T02:12:24Z phoe_krk: How can I generate fresh lists, so (setf (third (first (make-board))) :X) changes only one element, not five?
2016-01-10T02:12:59Z |3b|: (loop repeat 5 collect (make-list 5 ...))?
2016-01-10T02:13:15Z phoe_krk: Ooh, thanks.
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2016-01-10T02:22:07Z hkian: Take it easy, all. It's time for me to actually go out into the world!
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2016-01-10T02:39:57Z phoe_krk: What's the equivalent of for (int i; ...) for (int j; ...) {...} in Lisp's iter?
2016-01-10T02:40:17Z phoe_krk: Because (iter (for j ...) (iter (for k ...) (things))) doesn't work as I think it would.
2016-01-10T02:40:49Z phoe_krk: Namely, returning from the inner iter doesn't stop the outer iter.
2016-01-10T02:42:53Z Bike: Stop? It wouldn't in C either.
2016-01-10T02:43:18Z Bike: Wait, do you mean just cl:return? iter probably establishes a NIL block.
2016-01-10T02:43:45Z blub: you'd need a specific block and a return-from i think
2016-01-10T02:43:50Z blub: the same way you'd use a label and a goto in c
2016-01-10T02:44:07Z phoe_krk: Yes, cl:return.
2016-01-10T02:44:24Z Bike: that's roughly like C break, in this case. so it only breaks out of the inner loop.
2016-01-10T02:44:35Z phoe_krk: I see.
2016-01-10T02:44:42Z Bike: But you can probably establish a named block with iter. if not you can just do (block foo (iter ... (return-from foo ...)))
2016-01-10T02:45:03Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Named-Blocks.html#Named-Blocks yeah, there you go.
2016-01-10T02:45:17Z Bike: ft. your exact use case~
2016-01-10T02:46:03Z phoe_krk: yessss, it works.
2016-01-10T02:46:04Z phoe_krk: thanks <3
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2016-01-10T03:37:26Z myrkraverk: When printing strings, with FORMAT, is there something better than ~A ?
2016-01-10T03:37:38Z blub: better how
2016-01-10T03:37:40Z Bike: Please describe "better than" in more detail
2016-01-10T03:38:24Z myrkraverk: Well, in this case, I'm writing an example code, so I was wondering of there is a better (for some value of better) format code.
2016-01-10T03:38:51Z Bike: That doesn't help.
2016-01-10T03:39:09Z myrkraverk: Hmm.
2016-01-10T03:39:14Z Bike: I mean there are plenty of format directives. Many of them could in some situation be more useful than ~a.
2016-01-10T03:39:22Z Bike: That's vacuous.
2016-01-10T03:39:31Z myrkraverk: If you're printing lines from a text file?
2016-01-10T03:40:25Z Bike: Depends on how you want to print those lines.
2016-01-10T03:40:54Z myrkraverk: Well, in my example, it looks ok.
2016-01-10T03:41:05Z blub: can i see your example
2016-01-10T03:41:16Z |3b|: if you don't want it to be READable, or to act like WRITE, or to have case conversion, ~a is probably a reasonable choice
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2016-01-10T03:42:45Z myrkraverk: blub: soon enough, I'm working on a blog.
2016-01-10T03:43:03Z myrkraverk: |3b|: ok, I'll stick with ~a for now then.
2016-01-10T03:43:27Z blub: i meant to see if i would use ~a
2016-01-10T03:44:04Z myrkraverk: blub: Hmm.
2016-01-10T03:47:22Z myrkraverk: http://paste.lisp.org/+6J8E
2016-01-10T03:48:20Z myrkraverk: I know the context doesn't explain the error-flag, but that should be irrelevant.
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2016-01-10T04:25:51Z SAL9000: Is there an existing library for making "lockable" CLOS classes? I'm writing a Lispy wrapper for a C library which is not thread-safe.
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2016-01-10T04:38:47Z phoe_krk: SAL9000: "lockable"?
2016-01-10T04:39:48Z SAL9000: phoe_krk: locks as in the synchronization primitives
2016-01-10T04:40:02Z phoe_krk: SAL9000: bordeaux-threads?
2016-01-10T04:40:07Z phoe_krk: it has locks built in
2016-01-10T04:40:33Z mordocai: Also cross implementation threading things!
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2016-01-10T04:40:40Z phoe_krk: locks as in mutex locks
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2016-01-10T04:40:55Z SAL9000: it does, yes -- the question is whether there is some macrology out there to automatically wrap slots etc. of a CLOS class with, say, readers-writer locks.
2016-01-10T04:40:58Z Bike: using actual locks might be overcomplex sometimes. like, in sbcl you can CAS standard slots, so you could make atomic updates based on that.
2016-01-10T04:41:24Z Bike: but no, i don't know of a library for that.
2016-01-10T04:41:48Z mordocai: I saw a work in progress library that had cross platform CAS but it looked dead
2016-01-10T04:41:48Z SAL9000: and unless I can CAS SAPs, I'd still need mutexes for those
2016-01-10T04:42:02Z mordocai: cross implementation*
2016-01-10T04:42:20Z Bike: what do SAPs have to do with CLOS?
2016-01-10T04:42:41Z SAL9000: 14:55:51 <SAL9000> [...] I'm writing a Lispy wrapper for a C library which is not thread-safe.
2016-01-10T04:44:00Z Bike: oh, right. still, that would be out of scope for a library just providing pseudoatomic slot access
2016-01-10T04:44:31Z SAL9000: Well, I'd say "wrap methods", but I'm pretty sure that doesn't make sense with CLOS like it does with "classic" OO
2016-01-10T04:45:28Z Bike: What's a wrap method?
2016-01-10T04:45:41Z SAL9000: "wrap" is meant as a verb
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2016-01-10T04:47:47Z mordocai: What does "SAP" stand for in the context btw?
2016-01-10T04:47:58Z Bike: system area pointer
2016-01-10T04:48:01Z SAL9000: System Area Pointer. SBCL-specific term for foreign pointers
2016-01-10T04:48:21Z mordocai: Ah okay
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2016-01-10T04:48:38Z mordocai: I'm pretty new but would clos's :around, :after, :before stuff for methods help at all?
2016-01-10T04:49:28Z phoe_krk: I believe they could!
2016-01-10T04:49:35Z phoe_krk: :before make-lock
2016-01-10T04:49:39Z phoe_krk: :after unmake-lock
2016-01-10T04:50:30Z SAL9000: hmm... anything in the MOP which would allow discovery of all methods specialized on a given class?
2016-01-10T04:51:14Z Bike: mop specializer-d-m
2016-01-10T04:51:14Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for specializer-d-m.
2016-01-10T04:51:22Z Bike: mop specializer-direct-methods
2016-01-10T04:51:22Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/specializer-direct-methods.html
2016-01-10T04:51:41Z Bike: I think that would work.
2016-01-10T04:52:11Z Bike: I don't know how the automatic definition of accessors would go, though. Whether you could do that in MOP or if you'd need a fancier macro, i mean.
2016-01-10T04:53:23Z SAL9000: How do I get a specializer metaobject? (closer-mop:specializer) is undefined
2016-01-10T04:53:36Z Bike: classes are specializers, iirc
2016-01-10T04:54:00Z Bike: mop ensure-class
2016-01-10T04:54:00Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-class.html
2016-01-10T04:54:08Z SAL9000: that works, thanks
2016-01-10T04:55:34Z Bike: ...huh, I think it's make-instance that's s upposed to define accessor methods?
2016-01-10T04:56:41Z Bike: minion: memo for beach: i know you have a lot on your plate, but it would be nice if the MOP pages had links to the TOC etc.
2016-01-10T04:56:41Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-01-10T04:56:51Z resttime: Bit related, I like looking at this this documentation for MOP: http://www.crategus.com/books/closer-mop/
2016-01-10T04:57:07Z resttime: Er, C2MOP that is.
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2016-01-10T04:58:03Z mordocai: It is stuff like SAL9000 being able to do this that remind me why common lisp is awesome every day
2016-01-10T04:58:15Z SAL9000: :-)
2016-01-10T04:59:30Z SAL9000: in case someone else wants to do something like this: the following gets me a list of symbols, which could then be used to define :around methods for locks: (map 'slot-definition-readers (map 'accessor-method-slot-definition (specializer-direct-methods (ensure-class 'class))))
2016-01-10T05:00:25Z Bike: welp. i have no idea when readers are actually defined.
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2016-01-10T05:02:25Z Bike: somewhere in make-instance, i guess.
2016-01-10T05:03:45Z Bike: ...doing this through MOP might be a pain.
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2016-01-10T05:04:29Z Bike: no, wait, so you could define a metaclass bla bla bla, and then put an :after method on probably shared initialize to add an :around method to all the readers and writers to handle lock shit.
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2016-01-10T05:07:22Z SAL9000: yeah, I'm looking at metaclasses and method-classes. Can't find any docs on them, though.
2016-01-10T05:08:29Z Bike: well basically what you do is (defclass locked-class (standard-class) ...), specify (:metaclass locked-class) in classes you want to be locked, and then define a bunch of methods on stuff
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2016-01-10T05:10:27Z SAL9000: can a locked-class class inherit from a standard-class class?
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2016-01-10T05:11:06Z Bike: oh, yes, that's the thing i always forget. you have to define a method on... something... but once you do, yes, it can.
2016-01-10T05:11:09Z PuercoPop: SAL9000: you define that through validate-superclass
2016-01-10T05:11:17Z Bike: yeah that one.
2016-01-10T05:12:32Z PuercoPop: so if you want to prohibit locked-class to inherit from standard-class you do (defmethod validate-superclass ((class locked-class) (super standard-cass)) nil)
2016-01-10T05:12:43Z PuercoPop: replace nil with t if you want to allow it
2016-01-10T05:13:17Z SAL9000: makes sense. I'm using simple-finalizers, so I guess I should allow locked-class'es to inherit from standard-class'es
2016-01-10T05:13:32Z PuercoPop: and swap locked-class and standard-class to specify the other direction of inheritance
2016-01-10T05:16:52Z SAL9000: Thanks for all the help! :)
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2016-01-10T05:24:50Z SAL9000: Is there any existing library implementing readers-writer mutexes?
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2016-01-10T05:27:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-01-10T05:27:08Z minion: beach, memo from Bike: i know you have a lot on your plate, but it would be nice if the MOP pages had links to the TOC etc.
2016-01-10T05:27:45Z beach: Yes, good point.
2016-01-10T05:27:50Z Bike: top o' the generalized mornin' to ya
2016-01-10T05:27:50Z PuercoPop: SAL9000: iirc the Sonya Keene uses locks as a use case in CLOS, but no library that I know of
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2016-01-10T05:50:14Z |3b|: rather than a locked-class, don't you want locked-gf? not sure a class could affect arbitrary methods that happen to specialize on it
2016-01-10T05:51:08Z Bike: well, having locked accessors easily would be nice. i guess you could do slot values too...
2016-01-10T05:52:34Z |3b| suspects i'd prefer explicit locking anyway though, single lock isn't always what you want
2016-01-10T05:53:22Z |3b|: but i guess depends on the c lib and how it is thread-unsafe
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2016-01-10T06:12:42Z beach: Bike: Something like this: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/initialization-of-method-metaobjects.html
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2016-01-10T06:13:01Z Bike: yeah, great.
2016-01-10T06:13:11Z beach: OK, I'll work on that.
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2016-01-10T06:33:45Z mordocai: Is there a built in sign function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_function or do I need to write it? I specifically want the "return -1 0 or 1" behavior.
2016-01-10T06:34:10Z Bike: clhs signum
2016-01-10T06:34:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_signum.htm
2016-01-10T06:34:53Z mordocai: Ah wasn't finding that with searches thanks
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2016-01-10T06:47:59Z beach: Bike: How about something like this for the generic functions: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-direct-subclasses.html ?
2016-01-10T06:48:32Z Bike: with the methods? wasn't it already like that?
2016-01-10T06:48:51Z beach: No.  There was no title and no links.
2016-01-10T06:49:07Z beach: Like this: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-direct-superclasses.html
2016-01-10T06:50:05Z Bike: oh, you meant on top. yeah, seems good.
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2016-01-10T07:26:57Z jasom: I love unhandled memory faults with no backtrace; super easy to debug!
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2016-01-10T07:32:57Z moore33: beach: good morning
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2016-01-10T07:34:39Z beach: Hello moore33
2016-01-10T07:37:39Z moore33: I stole define-protocol-class from McClim for LPSG. I changed it a bit to define generic functions instead of slot definitions.
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2016-01-10T07:43:33Z beach: moore33: OK.  It's not a big macro is it?
2016-01-10T07:44:30Z moore33: beach: no, and I wrote it originally as far as I can tell :)
2016-01-10T07:45:22Z beach: Oh, OK. :)
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2016-01-10T07:45:44Z moore33: The default method combination is really pretty amazing in terms of picking apart a protocol and splitting up the responsibilitie logically.
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2016-01-10T07:46:01Z moore33: Responsibilities
2016-01-10T07:46:07Z moore33: Damn tablet
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2016-01-10T07:50:19Z beach: Yes, I remember when I taught it in The Land of the Long White Cloud.  The students knew Java and they were perfectly willing to break all client code by modifying the protocol.  With the standard method combination, there is no need.  Just introduce an :AROUND method.
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2016-01-10T07:57:23Z moore33: Gotta go running. Bbl.
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2016-01-10T09:59:45Z synchromesh: beach: I remember meeting you and your spouse in Wellington at a presentation Geoff Cant had organised (IIRC).
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2016-01-10T10:08:10Z beach: synchromesh: Oh, interesting!
2016-01-10T10:08:22Z beach: Yes, sounds very plausible.
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2016-01-10T10:09:45Z beach: Are you still in Aotearoa?
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2016-01-10T10:15:22Z beach suspects NZCLUG no longer exists. :(
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2016-01-10T10:29:27Z synchromesh: beach: No, I'm living in England now. Still using CL professionally (or at least for money) though. And I think you're right about NZCLUG.
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2016-01-10T13:08:00Z malice: Hello! I've been trying to write small utility - sandbox package(the place where you can go, check something and go back without polluting previous namespace)
2016-01-10T13:08:13Z malice: However, I got a small problem; First of all, here's my code: https://github.com/MatthewRock/cl-sandbox/blob/master/sandbox.lisp
2016-01-10T13:08:30Z malice: I start it with #'sandbox:start, then end with #'sandbox:exit
2016-01-10T13:08:46Z malice: after exiting, when I press enter or just do anything for REPL to advance, I get an error message:
2016-01-10T13:09:00Z malice: "Help! 11 nested errors.SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded."
2016-01-10T13:09:26Z malice: It also says something about backtrace, but I can't see it; I'm running SLIME connected to external lisp process(with slime-connect)
2016-01-10T13:09:47Z malice: 11 errors sound bad; I'd like to fix it, but I don't even know what error is this
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2016-01-10T13:17:51Z |3b|: malice: usually that means there was an error when it tried to print your error
2016-01-10T13:18:15Z |3b|: malice: for example a bad print-object method on something in the backtrace
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2016-01-10T13:24:52Z malice: hmm
2016-01-10T13:25:20Z malice: |3b|: any idea what could be causing the bug? Previously I've had no problems(except for SLIME, which should be fixed now)
2016-01-10T13:25:32Z |3b| 's best guess is *package gets into a bad state somehow, might try printing that in EXIT before restoring it
2016-01-10T13:25:53Z |3b| doesn't see anything obviouslyt wrong though
2016-01-10T13:26:39Z malice: The code worked just fine before
2016-01-10T13:27:00Z malice: Well, thanks for help :)
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2016-01-10T13:28:49Z |3b|: or a *debugger-hook* that sets *PACKAGE* to cl-user or something safe and with-standard-io-syntax before calling debugger
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2016-01-10T15:48:16Z malice: How can I check if something is a function, a macro, or a special operator?
2016-01-10T15:50:29Z malice: e.g. I want to check what #'lambda is.
2016-01-10T15:52:12Z malice: Also, do I need to quote lambda now? I've read that it is possible that lambda is a macro which in fact returns (function (lambda ...))
2016-01-10T15:52:35Z malice: So if I write a function which returns lambda expressions, do I need to return (lambda...) or #'(lambda..>)
2016-01-10T15:52:36Z malice: ?
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2016-01-10T15:53:42Z mtl: malice: both will work
2016-01-10T15:54:40Z mtl: personally I never use #' with lambda, but this is merely a matter of style
2016-01-10T15:55:26Z malice: mtl: thanks.
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2016-01-10T16:50:02Z dim: if anyone is good at CFFI, I would appreciate any hints/help on that: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/226
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2016-01-10T16:53:55Z fe[nl]ix: dim: that means the FFI didn't find a global symbol named SSL_get_version
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2016-01-10T16:54:28Z fe[nl]ix: so either libssl.so wasn't loaded or it was loaded but doesn't export that symbol, or it doesn't have it at all
2016-01-10T16:55:48Z dim: how can this happen to some people and not me (either in macosx or debian)?
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2016-01-10T16:58:51Z contrapunctus: o/
2016-01-10T17:01:05Z contrapunctus: I'm trying to read characters without requiring Enter to be hit to accept the input. read-char on SBCL 1.3.0.debian doesn't seem to behave that way. Is the solution still what is given here, or has something new come up in the meantime? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20276738/reading-a-character-without-requiring-the-enter-button-pressed
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2016-01-10T17:16:07Z fe[nl]ix: dim: they may be loading an incorrect libssl.so
2016-01-10T17:17:51Z dim: how can I figure that out? is there some logging code I should add for that? how do I get the pathname of the loaded .so after the fact, say?
2016-01-10T17:18:17Z fe[nl]ix: dim: I would suggest that instead of loading libssl in lisp, you create an empty library as an indirection
2016-01-10T17:18:28Z fe[nl]ix: and link it to all required system libraries
2016-01-10T17:18:51Z fe[nl]ix: then you would only load from lisp that shim
2016-01-10T17:19:28Z fe[nl]ix: this helps with the fact that the linking would be done using the OS tools, and finding the correct library as well
2016-01-10T17:19:36Z fe[nl]ix: so you can use pkg-config, etc...
2016-01-10T17:21:15Z fe[nl]ix: dim: you can look at /proc/$PID/maps to see exactly which library was loaded
2016-01-10T17:21:21Z fe[nl]ix: because libraries are mmap'd
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2016-01-10T17:23:51Z dim: so, I hate the whole business of dynamic loading of libs, and I want it as simple as possible, and I just don't understand how/why it shouldn't be CFFI's job to make it work... your proposal is really making me anxious, I don't want to lose my mind trying to solve that problem myself, and the last thing I want to do is develop my own .so
2016-01-10T17:23:58Z dim: I really hope there's another solution
2016-01-10T17:24:07Z dim: also note that debian users are out of the woods
2016-01-10T17:24:28Z dim: because the lib is found at the same place on the build setup and the live/running setup
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2016-01-10T17:24:53Z dim: so I should maybe just answer: either use debian or ask your OS packager to properly package pgloader like I did in debian.
2016-01-10T17:25:08Z dim: (it's a tad too harsh an answer for my taste)
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2016-01-10T17:31:25Z contrapunctus: folks? anyone?
2016-01-10T17:32:34Z p_l: contrapunctus: you need to swiych terminal into raw mode to be able to read without enter being pressed
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2016-01-10T17:34:39Z contrapunctus: thanks p_l , looking into that.
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2016-01-10T17:35:12Z p_l: generally it's unix API issue
2016-01-10T17:36:24Z fe[nl]ix: dim: the OS tools are all geared towards compile-time binding between library name and paths
2016-01-10T17:36:44Z fe[nl]ix: not runtime dlopen(), like CL FFIs do
2016-01-10T17:37:50Z contrapunctus: p_l: aha, this looks related - https://github.com/kingcons/trivial-raw-io
2016-01-10T17:38:38Z dim: fe[nl]ix: I wish I didn't have to care... so much... I took on qmynd maintenance to avoid cl-mysql FFI, but can't do that for SSL and SQLite and FreeTDS unfortunately
2016-01-10T17:38:50Z fe[nl]ix: CFFI tries to replicate some of the features found in ld(1) and pkg-config(1) but it can't do a good job because those things are OS-specific
2016-01-10T17:39:15Z dim: I'm close to thinking it would be cheaper overall to just implement pure-CL solutions to those than trying to beat CFFI into something that just works
2016-01-10T17:39:59Z fe[nl]ix: it's really easy: have an autotools script that looks for those libraries and compiles a small library that links to them
2016-01-10T17:40:10Z fe[nl]ix: what everybody does is what is guaranteed to work
2016-01-10T17:41:01Z dim: at runtime?
2016-01-10T17:41:25Z fe[nl]ix: at compile-time
2016-01-10T17:41:28Z dim: my understanding is that the problem we have is that buildtime and runtime environments are different, right?
2016-01-10T17:41:57Z fe[nl]ix: no, it's that the buildtime environments can vary wildly
2016-01-10T17:42:12Z attila_lendvai: fe[nl]ix: those things in linux are only easy for the *second* time
2016-01-10T17:42:25Z dim: related, fe[nl]ix, see also: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/316#issuecomment-169900415
2016-01-10T17:42:35Z fe[nl]ix: versions and install paths can vary from system to system
2016-01-10T17:42:43Z dim: ok
2016-01-10T17:43:13Z dim: now, how do I guarantee that libpgloadersslwrapper will never fail to load from CFFI on any system where pgloader is compiled?
2016-01-10T17:43:36Z dim: (and again, I only really care about debian here, and in debian it works)
2016-01-10T17:44:04Z fe[nl]ix: I suspect it works by accident
2016-01-10T17:44:08Z dim: (except in the latest link (issue 316) and I don't understand why (it's a debian docker image failing to load SSL again, used to work, I didn't change the code around the loading)
2016-01-10T17:44:32Z fe[nl]ix: the buildtime and runtime distro need to be the same, for practical purposes
2016-01-10T17:44:48Z dim: that's what happens with docker and debian
2016-01-10T17:44:51Z fe[nl]ix: in #316 he's probably using too old a version of openssl
2016-01-10T17:45:07Z dim: he's using the debian/jessie one :/
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2016-01-10T17:45:21Z fe[nl]ix: openssl tends not to remove functions once they're part of the API/ABI
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2016-01-10T17:46:22Z fe[nl]ix: dim: that's why I suggest an autotools script that does the job of searching for the required C libs and prints the versions found, etc...
2016-01-10T17:46:25Z fe[nl]ix: better debugging
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2016-01-10T17:46:44Z fe[nl]ix: you have no visibility on what dlopen() does when loading from Lisp
2016-01-10T17:47:51Z fe[nl]ix: and of course the openssl man pages don't list the version in which that function was added
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2016-01-10T17:48:26Z fe[nl]ix: I miss SunOS man pages, they were very well written
2016-01-10T17:49:02Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: don'txwxpwct much in terms of manpages from GNU projects :-(
2016-01-10T17:49:07Z dim: I begin to grasp the missing symbol problem now
2016-01-10T17:49:27Z dim: you're telling me the build env did have the symbol, but the run-time doesn't have it?
2016-01-10T17:50:17Z dim: as the build and run-time envs are the same when using docker, what must have happened is that the OS contains several libssl versions and one of them has been used for building pgloader, yet another one is linked to at runtime?!
2016-01-10T17:50:24Z fe[nl]ix: yes, because of two different versions of libssl being installed
2016-01-10T17:50:43Z fe[nl]ix: dim: I would suppose so
2016-01-10T17:51:05Z dim: the docker image has both libssl1.0.0 and openssl debian packages
2016-01-10T17:51:10Z fe[nl]ix: and since multiple versions can be installed at the same time, this can happen
2016-01-10T17:51:15Z dim: my understanding is that we need both
2016-01-10T17:51:28Z dim: CFFI needs the "developer edition" of the .so right?
2016-01-10T17:51:43Z p_l: dim: no
2016-01-10T17:52:08Z p_l: unless yiu're using a groveller or something
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2016-01-10T17:52:41Z dim: all I do is depend on QL systems that in turn depend on cl+ssl
2016-01-10T17:52:53Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: the problem is that the concrete .so changes with each version, so you can't hardcode that in the CFFI definition
2016-01-10T17:52:56Z dim: (postmodern, qmynd and some others)
2016-01-10T17:53:17Z fe[nl]ix: basically, in lisp everybody loads the .so, which is only provided by the -dev packages
2016-01-10T17:53:28Z fe[nl]ix: but the actual version changes
2016-01-10T17:53:42Z dim: fe[nl]ix: I could advice the user of issue #316 to remove the libssl package and only keep the runtime support (openssl package), right?
2016-01-10T17:53:48Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: the right thing to do is to depend on SONAME iirc, but it might mean enconding versioned symbols in CFFI
2016-01-10T17:54:34Z p_l: because makimg the same function with same argunenta use a different ABI is a thing nowadays
2016-01-10T17:54:35Z dim: ah well openssl package doesn't have the .so https://packages.debian.org/jessie/amd64/openssl/filelist
2016-01-10T17:54:53Z fe[nl]ix: dim: the package openssl only contains command-line utils
2016-01-10T17:54:59Z dim: libssl1.0.0 has it, https://packages.debian.org/jessie/amd64/libssl1.0.0/filelist
2016-01-10T17:55:38Z dim: so I can't even start to guess where the other ssl .so might be coming from :/
2016-01-10T17:56:15Z p_l: btw, loadibg a library through dlopen() and loading them through ELF header symbol resolving calls the same code
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2016-01-10T17:57:26Z dim: all I know is "Undefined alien: "SSL_CTX_set_default_verify_dir"
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2016-01-10T18:00:09Z scymtym_: dim: have you seen https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/issues/33 ?
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2016-01-10T18:02:09Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: the search paths can differ between compile-time and runtime
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2016-01-10T18:04:24Z dim: scymtym_: thanks! just added that reference to the pgloader issue
2016-01-10T18:04:32Z dim: witht some version questioning from fe[nl]ix
2016-01-10T18:04:44Z fe[nl]ix: dim: touch empty.c ; gcc empty.c -fPIC -shared -o libpgloaderwrapper.so -Wl,--no-as-needed $(pkg-config libssl --libs)
2016-01-10T18:04:53Z fe[nl]ix: it's that easy
2016-01-10T18:05:08Z dim: is there a way to have SBCL "import" the build-time .so into the image, then use this one rather than any other one?
2016-01-10T18:05:34Z dim: I mean, the built image is already depending on the run-time env a lot (OS, kernel version, libc I guess, etc) so we're not dealing with portability here
2016-01-10T18:05:53Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: which is why RPATH was always an abomination
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2016-01-10T18:06:19Z dim: fe[nl]ix: then I need something in lisp to load that, cffi again I guess
2016-01-10T18:06:28Z fe[nl]ix: dim: exactly
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2016-01-10T18:06:46Z dim: where do I need to ship the libpgloaderwrapper.so ?
2016-01-10T18:06:59Z dim: I'm sure it depends on the OS
2016-01-10T18:07:19Z dim: and also, now I have gcc and binutils and half-the-world as a build dependency
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2016-01-10T18:07:33Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: in certain cases RPATH is very useful because it avoids search paths
2016-01-10T18:07:54Z fe[nl]ix: dim: clang should work too(e.g. OSX)
2016-01-10T18:08:02Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: yes, but it shouldn't be automatically hardcoded by default
2016-01-10T18:08:19Z fe[nl]ix: but using autotools helps with compiling this indirection
2016-01-10T18:08:25Z dim: what about loading the ssl.so and freetds.so and etc from build-time right into the sbcl image and then having that loaded (either automatically as already linked or explicitely from the image) at run-time?
2016-01-10T18:09:28Z fe[nl]ix: dim: you can sort of do that, I think one of my colleagues here published the code that we use to relink the SBCL core
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2016-01-10T18:10:34Z dim: I'm thinking (defparameter *ssl.so* (read-file-into-byte-vector ...)) then somehow have cffi use that
2016-01-10T18:10:59Z fe[nl]ix: it's not that easy
2016-01-10T18:11:03Z dim: there's no way I'm having to recompile SBCL as a build dependency of pgloader :/
2016-01-10T18:11:52Z fe[nl]ix: then you have to write it to the file-system, and depending on mount options you won't necessarily be able to load it
2016-01-10T18:11:57Z fe[nl]ix: although that's pretty unlikely
2016-01-10T18:12:08Z fe[nl]ix: dim: not recompiling, relinking
2016-01-10T18:13:07Z fe[nl]ix: so basically, if your target is a Linux distro, do what everybody else does(e.g. Perl/Python/Ruby users) and install your wrapper.so to /usr/lib64
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2016-01-10T18:13:35Z dim: I could do that for *packages* of pgloader, but those don't have the problem we're talking about
2016-01-10T18:13:50Z fe[nl]ix: deploying a single executable is not easy, currently
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2016-01-10T18:14:02Z dim: I'm trying to address the problem of people who are building pgloader or running a pre-compiled version of it on their setup
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2016-01-10T18:14:15Z fe[nl]ix: for those who run the executable from the source tree, put the .so next to the executable and load it from there
2016-01-10T18:14:20Z fe[nl]ix: that should be a known path
2016-01-10T18:14:21Z dim: pre-compiled but not properly packaged for their target OS
2016-01-10T18:15:04Z dim: (cffi:load-foreign-library "pgloaderwrapper" :search-path ".")
2016-01-10T18:15:21Z fe[nl]ix: here we compile everything statically, it's common to have 2GB server executables
2016-01-10T18:15:48Z fe[nl]ix: dim: no, don't rely on the CFFI search path, because it's implementation-specific what "." means
2016-01-10T18:16:01Z dim: rather (cffi:load-foreign-library "pgloaderwrapper" :search-path (asdf:system-relative-pathname :pgloader "build/bin/")
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2016-01-10T18:16:36Z dim: I'd like to have libssl statically compiled into the pgloader image
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2016-01-10T18:16:49Z dim: is there a (mostly) sane way to do that?
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2016-01-10T18:16:57Z fe[nl]ix: (merge-pathnames (asdf:system-relative-pathname :pgloader "build/bin/") #p"libpgloaderwrapper.so")
2016-01-10T18:17:04Z fe[nl]ix: then cffi:load-foreign-library that
2016-01-10T18:17:21Z fe[nl]ix: dim: no, there's no sane way to do that
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2016-01-10T18:17:48Z fe[nl]ix: I'll blog about it once I'm sure
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2016-01-10T18:20:12Z dim: gcc build/empty.c -fPIC -shared -o build/bin/libpgloaderwrapper.so -Wl,--no-as-needed
2016-01-10T18:20:13Z dim: ld: unknown option: --no-as-needed
2016-01-10T18:20:20Z dim: ok, not pursuing that route either ;/
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2016-01-10T18:21:07Z fe[nl]ix: wow, I didn't expect that
2016-01-10T18:21:19Z dim: I'll leave it to "please use the debian package"
2016-01-10T18:21:31Z fe[nl]ix: --as-needed was made default a while ago, now it's mandatory :(
2016-01-10T18:21:32Z fe[nl]ix: boo
2016-01-10T18:21:44Z dim: clang: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see invocation)
2016-01-10T18:21:52Z dim: it's clang rather than gcc here
2016-01-10T18:21:59Z fe[nl]ix: hmm
2016-01-10T18:22:00Z dim: but anyway, another build dependency hell
2016-01-10T18:22:50Z dim: ld: unknown option: --no-as-needed
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2016-01-10T18:23:00Z dim: /usr/local/Cellar/gcc47/4.7.3/bin/gcc-4.7 build/empty.c -fPIC -shared -o build/bin/libpgloaderwrapper.so -Wl,--no-as-needed
2016-01-10T18:23:15Z dim: still no luck
2016-01-10T18:23:19Z dim: anyway
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2016-01-10T18:24:25Z dim: back to lparallel queues to optimize loading a single big CSV file
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2016-01-10T18:25:41Z fe[nl]ix: dim: ld --version ?
2016-01-10T18:26:52Z dim: ld: unknown option: --version
2016-01-10T18:27:08Z dim: you're oa loop here :/
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2016-01-10T18:27:51Z fe[nl]ix: it means the system ld is clang's
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2016-01-10T18:28:14Z fe[nl]ix: and even if you compile with gcc, gcc will use the system compiler
2016-01-10T18:28:28Z fe[nl]ix: one more reason not to use clang
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2016-01-10T18:29:02Z dim: re, hope the loop was on my side
2016-01-10T18:29:13Z dim: (though it was from rcirc being unhappy about something)
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2016-01-10T18:30:34Z fe[nl]ix: what do you mean by "loop" ?
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2016-01-10T18:32:17Z dim: sorry, had a problem where your message kept appearing again and again as in an infinite loop
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2016-01-10T18:52:49Z emaczen: How can I specialize on a plist vs just a list?
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2016-01-10T18:55:02Z Bike: in a method, you mean?
2016-01-10T18:55:14Z emaczen: Bike: Yes
2016-01-10T18:55:22Z Bike: can't.
2016-01-10T18:55:42Z emaczen: Bike: Are there common workarounds?
2016-01-10T18:55:56Z Bike: not that i'm aware of. i've never heard of someone wanting to do that.
2016-01-10T18:56:07Z Bike: plist structure isn't easily detectable, you know?
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2016-01-10T18:56:36Z emaczen: Bike: Maybe I should have used a hash-table...
2016-01-10T18:56:40Z Bike: and it's contextual. if i do (mapcar #'print '(:foo bar :baz bak)) is that a list or a plist?
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2016-01-10T18:57:44Z emaczen: These plists are pretty small in general which is why I used a list
2016-01-10T18:57:52Z emaczen: vs a hashtable I mean
2016-01-10T18:58:05Z Bike: well, sure. but it's unusual to want different behavior for "a list" than for "a plist".
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2016-01-10T18:58:41Z emaczen: Bike: Why is that unusual?
2016-01-10T18:58:47Z Bike: really, i guess it's unusual to have one function that somehow does the same thing to a sequence and to a map.
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2016-01-10T19:03:50Z emaczen: Bike: Thanks for the food for thought -- I'm going to just temporarily convert to a hash-table and specialize on hash-tables and lists.
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2016-01-10T19:17:26Z dim: or create your own "map" type (a class or a struct maybe) and specialize on that
2016-01-10T19:17:41Z dim: you can then implement your map type either as a plist or an hash-table
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2016-01-10T20:28:53Z resttime: Finally finished reading all of Erik Naggum's articles in the archive.  Interesting read, learned about lisp and stuff.
2016-01-10T20:29:27Z resttime: I think I'll look through his library next.
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2016-01-10T21:31:03Z wglb: Does any lisp besides Lispworks have functions to access the Windows Regsitry?
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2016-01-10T21:33:08Z pjb: wglb: almost CL implementations running on MS-Windows have FFI.  Therefore you can call the MS-Windows functions to access the MS Windows Registry.  Use CFFI.
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2016-01-10T21:36:36Z wglb: pjb: Thanks.
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2016-01-10T22:50:50Z dim: what's the common way to do with-output-to-string for bytes instead?
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2016-01-10T22:54:55Z pjb: vector-push-extend.
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2016-01-10T22:56:02Z dim: should I worry about performances?
2016-01-10T22:56:10Z pillton: dim: There is support for in memory byte streams in Edi Weitz's flexi-streams.
2016-01-10T22:56:18Z pjb: Or else you can get out the big guns, and use Gray Streams.
2016-01-10T22:56:21Z dim: thx
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2016-01-10T22:56:51Z pjb: If you don't know the maximum size, then use vector-push-extend with a third parameter that is proportional to the length.
2016-01-10T22:56:53Z dim: I remember having removed cde using that in qmynd for perfs re
2016-01-10T22:57:02Z pjb: Pfft!
2016-01-10T22:57:09Z pjb: Balderdash!
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2016-01-10T22:57:44Z dim: rcirc bugged again, sorry
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2016-01-10T23:08:26Z RealityVoid: hello!
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2016-01-10T23:28:48Z dreamaddict: quick question:  I’m installing Linux on my new machine, for coding, a lot of which will be in Lisp…is there a “best” Linux install for that?
2016-01-10T23:29:06Z dreamaddict: (also, I’m a Linux noob but not beyond learning such an OS)
2016-01-10T23:33:16Z mtl: dreamaddict: not that I know of
2016-01-10T23:33:27Z mtl: that is, I can't think of a lisp focused distro off the top of my head
2016-01-10T23:34:01Z dreamaddict: I meant, I don’t know much about the differences between Linuxes…I was thinking an easy one like Debian or Ubuntu maybe and just wondering if there was something I might not know about that would make me regret one over the other when it came to coding
2016-01-10T23:34:03Z mtl: as for what's best for lisping, as long as there's reasonably up to date compilers available, it should be fine
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2016-01-10T23:34:28Z jsgrant: mtl: By Lisp, meaning CL?
2016-01-10T23:34:39Z mtl: yes
2016-01-10T23:34:45Z jsgrant: mtl: Debian.
2016-01-10T23:35:00Z dreamaddict: Debian it is
2016-01-10T23:35:05Z mtl: yeah, debian is good
2016-01-10T23:35:05Z jsgrant: That being said, Quicklisp kinda makes it a non-issue largely between any distro.
2016-01-10T23:35:14Z dreamaddict: I can always get a more arcane version of Linux later, if I feel like it
2016-01-10T23:35:38Z mtl: I use arch linux myself, don't really have any issues
2016-01-10T23:35:47Z mtl: but I feel like sbcl might get "too" up to date some times
2016-01-10T23:35:50Z dreamaddict: oh I’ve heard great things about arch
2016-01-10T23:35:54Z jsgrant: I was going to take the jump to Debian awhile back, then realized it was like 10 minutes of work to get everything I wanted via Quicklisp on a Fedora install.,
2016-01-10T23:36:07Z dreamaddict: but this is going to be my first Linux, and I kind of don’t feel like getting that deep into something like Arch just yet
2016-01-10T23:36:09Z mtl: dreamaddict: it's a great distro, not ideal for linux beginners :/
2016-01-10T23:36:15Z dreamaddict: not until I understand better why I would need to :)
2016-01-10T23:36:16Z dreamaddict: so I’ve heard
2016-01-10T23:36:30Z mtl: I had been using linux for years before I started with arch
2016-01-10T23:36:34Z jsgrant: Guix is probably something interesting to keep an eeye on in the future, but for now it's pretty much all Scheme via Guile and even then they don't have that much software packages. :^P
2016-01-10T23:36:59Z dreamaddict: I saw this cool Ceramic library on QL that used the web browser as the GUI
2016-01-10T23:37:03Z dreamaddict: it looks neat, at least...
2016-01-10T23:37:39Z mtl: jsgrant: that's interesting
2016-01-10T23:37:52Z mtl: uh
2016-01-10T23:38:02Z mtl: looks like I accidentally stole a nick
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2016-01-10T23:39:16Z jsgrant: dreamaddict: If you are a first-time Opensource Unix-like OS user, Debian/Ubuntu is probably still a good starting place (I started with Ubuntu in early HS, which was like 6 or-so years ago so maybe it's changed ... but doubtful). Fedora is also pretty good all things considered, but I'm biased on that front.
2016-01-10T23:39:24Z mtl_: I don't wanna get ghost killed or something :P
2016-01-10T23:39:27Z jsgrant: Either or, or anything else, it shoulde
2016-01-10T23:39:37Z jsgrant: shouldn't be a big deal*
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2016-01-10T23:39:49Z jsgrant: Due to quicklisp and like self-contained tech.
2016-01-10T23:39:53Z dreamaddict: sounds like I’m going to go with Debian
2016-01-10T23:40:13Z dreamaddict: what little Linux experience I have is from learning vim and a few bash commands on the OSX Terminal
2016-01-10T23:40:24Z dreamaddict: and I did grow up with DOS
2016-01-10T23:40:40Z jsgrant: dreamaddict: I also would probably go with the "Desktop GNOME" opition or similar, as a starter in the installer.
2016-01-10T23:40:43Z dreamaddict: some people these days aren’t down with the command like but that ain’t me
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2016-01-10T23:41:15Z jsgrant: Which, I think may be the default still if you chose the desktop group.
2016-01-10T23:41:44Z mtl_: Yeah I think gnome is still default on debian
2016-01-10T23:41:48Z dreamaddict: now I just need to figure out how to configure dual-boot on this fresh machine
2016-01-10T23:42:03Z dreamaddict: as long as I can play with that sweet looking CEPL
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2016-01-10T23:42:38Z thodg: is cmucl still the best option for production environments ?
2016-01-10T23:42:39Z jsgrant: dreamaddict: Yeah, no idea on that one; Never messed with that -- once I switched to Opensource Unix-likes, I decided to jump all-in, sorry.
2016-01-10T23:42:45Z thodg: or not ?
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2016-01-10T23:43:10Z jsgrant: dreamaddict: Yeah, cepl is a pretty exciting project. :^)
2016-01-10T23:43:27Z dreamaddict: eh I wouldn’t care that much about Windows except for I have friends who like to play games that aren’t on Linux
2016-01-10T23:43:28Z mtl_: what's cepl?
2016-01-10T23:43:38Z dreamaddict: code-eval-play-love?
2016-01-10T23:44:00Z dreamaddict: not sure about that last one…it’s a cool Lisp IDE
2016-01-10T23:44:15Z dreamaddict: I saw a guy make some videos with him using it with OpenGL, hot-compiling graphics demos
2016-01-10T23:44:24Z jsgrant: mtl_: The "Code Eval Play Loop", a set of abstracted primitives and higher-level stuff to make making game-engines and graphic demos easier.
2016-01-10T23:44:27Z aeth: As for desktops: KDE's buggy, but has features. GNOME isn't buggy, but is continuously removing features. Afaik, the situation hasn't changed recently.
2016-01-10T23:44:31Z dreamaddict: it made me realize how Lisp is like the code and the config file at the same time
2016-01-10T23:45:00Z jsgrant: dreamaddict: Well, not really an ide; More so it plugs into say swank for slime and can use it via an ide-like system/editor like Emacs.
2016-01-10T23:45:12Z mtl_: dreamaddict: yeah, i realised than when I started using stumpwm
2016-01-10T23:45:26Z mtl_: and configuring it it common lisp
2016-01-10T23:45:45Z mtl_: i love that stuff
2016-01-10T23:46:14Z resttime: thodg: I am not sure what you mean by "production environment" but SBCL and CCL are the usual options people pick now, I think.
2016-01-10T23:46:20Z mtl_: jsgrant: is it usable as a general IDE?
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2016-01-10T23:47:08Z jsgrant: aeth: I'm using Fedora's Workstation Spin on my main rig and it runs GNOME (and for day-to-day inside said session, a vm that runs stumpwm + emacs) and I think people are too harsh on GNOME. It's more of a casual environment, and does a pretty good job at that -- but it's not really crippled or anything, as people will lead one to believe. :^P
2016-01-10T23:47:14Z mtl_: oh, it plugs into emacs
2016-01-10T23:47:22Z aeth: On Linux, most people use SBCL, afaik. Some libraries might not even work under other Common Lisp implementations because a lot of people just code for SBCL.
2016-01-10T23:47:45Z aeth: jsgrant: Unless you have a setup that GNOME developers apparently do not have, such as having two desktop monitors apparently.
2016-01-10T23:47:52Z axion: a lot of people code for CCL on Linux, too
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2016-01-10T23:47:54Z thodg: i have a problem with their growing idiomacies, common lisp needs a common unix abstraction layer
2016-01-10T23:48:02Z jsgrant: mtl_: Yeah, to my understanding it just leaves a connection open to swank/slime and you can hack it in a live-coding like environment via Emacs, or whatever else can talk to/via swank.
2016-01-10T23:48:20Z aeth: GNOME, unless it's changed recently, has one "primary" and one "secondary" monitor and you have to basically do most things on the primary. KDE usually (although sometimes bugs break it) allows you to have two full panels at the bottom of each monitor.
2016-01-10T23:48:34Z mtl_: ah
2016-01-10T23:48:48Z aeth: s/two/one/
2016-01-10T23:48:50Z aeth: i.e. two full panels
2016-01-10T23:48:59Z mtl_: here I was getting the excited by the idea of a CL ide written in CL that isn't emacs
2016-01-10T23:49:25Z aeth: KDE is extremely customizable so even though the default isn't that great, you can get it to be useable on niche setups more than GNOME, where you have to install a bunch of JavaScript plugins to do anything
2016-01-10T23:49:42Z trinitr0n: dreamaddict: The animation files used for the movie tron are the same way
2016-01-10T23:49:44Z aeth: Not like I'm a big KDE fan. When I say it's buggy, I mean it. It's very buggy, at least the versions that Fedora ships way too early.
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2016-01-10T23:49:46Z trinitr0n: part procedural
2016-01-10T23:49:46Z jsgrant: aeth: There's an extension for that, but yes, it's dumb there isn't or wasn't a shipped option to do that. That being said, I don't know the state of that anymore, I'm only using one monitor now after accidently knocking over my other.
2016-01-10T23:49:48Z trinitr0n: part config
2016-01-10T23:49:59Z trinitr0n: the scenest themselves were written in lisp
2016-01-10T23:50:10Z jsgrant: mtl_: Second-Climacs.... :^I
2016-01-10T23:50:11Z aeth: At the moment, I'm using xterm instead of konsole because konsole sometimes doesn't close, creating a process that eventually climbs to 100% CPU on one thread until I kill it.
2016-01-10T23:50:17Z trinitr0n: (the animations, lighting, etc- everything but geometries)
2016-01-10T23:50:18Z aeth: There's always a new bug to discover when KDE updates.
2016-01-10T23:50:30Z aeth: (i.e. the window closes but not the process)
2016-01-10T23:50:37Z jsgrant still needs to play with Qtools, now that he thinks of it.
2016-01-10T23:51:13Z mtl_: jsgrant: wow, hadn't caught that
2016-01-10T23:51:20Z mtl_: I was aware of climacs, thought it was just dead
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2016-01-10T23:52:26Z jsgrant: mtl_: Nah, Beach resurrects yet another piece of precious CL cargo.
2016-01-10T23:52:43Z dreamaddict: they wrote Tron in Lisp?
2016-01-10T23:52:49Z dreamaddict: awesome
2016-01-10T23:52:50Z trinitr0n: yeah
2016-01-10T23:52:57Z trinitr0n: A platform called ASAS
2016-01-10T23:53:07Z trinitr0n: I have to code for it and am trying very hard to get it released
2016-01-10T23:53:09Z aeth: Another great bug: my computer spends forever at 100% after closing some Steam games to generate a core dump (ironically, it thinks the game crashes except when it actually crashes) so I need to disable systemd coredumps. Every single time systemd updates, since Fedora will overwrite the 50-coredump.conf that needs to be overwritten with a link to /dev/null (wtf were systemd programmers thinking)
2016-01-10T23:53:11Z mtl_: dreamaddict: I think CL software was used to make gollum in the LOTR films as well
2016-01-10T23:53:23Z trinitr0n: actually it was used for the simulations / battles
2016-01-10T23:53:28Z jsgrant: dreamaddict: There was at the very least, a frame or 10 with Emacs clearly in it via a CLI.
2016-01-10T23:53:31Z dreamaddict: and yet, every single person that I have met who codes has never heard of Lisp
2016-01-10T23:53:31Z trinitr0n: (in LOTR)
2016-01-10T23:53:46Z dreamaddict: do you mean the original Tron or the new one?
2016-01-10T23:53:50Z trinitr0n: O.G.
2016-01-10T23:54:01Z mtl_: trinitr0n: didn't know that, I could've sword I've read that the software used to animate gollum was CL, though
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2016-01-10T23:54:12Z trinitr0n: ;	"TRON"	MCP Objects
2016-01-10T23:54:12Z trinitr0n: ;
2016-01-10T23:54:12Z trinitr0n: ;---------------------------------------------------------------
2016-01-10T23:54:12Z trinitr0n: (l mcpon)
2016-01-10T23:54:12Z trinitr0n: (defun	mcp-setup  (version)
2016-01-10T23:54:14Z trinitr0n:         (tranew-cmd  '(VIStavision format))
2016-01-10T23:54:17Z trinitr0n: 	(define resolution 9)
2016-01-10T23:54:17Z jsgrant: dreamaddict: New Tron has Emacs.
2016-01-10T23:54:19Z trinitr0n: Etc... :)
2016-01-10T23:54:51Z dreamaddict: seriously Lisp is spoiling me on languages
2016-01-10T23:55:00Z trinitr0n: Lisp is cool
2016-01-10T23:55:06Z dreamaddict: I’m going to have to use something lamer to get employment
2016-01-10T23:55:11Z jsgrant: dreamaddict: Not even heard of Clojure, that's still somefactor of "trendy" isn't it?
2016-01-10T23:55:22Z dreamaddict: yeah people do seem to take Clojure seriously
2016-01-10T23:55:24Z trinitr0n: comparing my Symbolics Lisp Machines to like, everything else of their time is an interesting exercise
2016-01-10T23:55:27Z trinitr0n: anyway
2016-01-10T23:55:35Z dreamaddict: at least it works on the JVM, which means that you can use all of the Java/JS libraries easily with it...right?
2016-01-10T23:55:38Z trinitr0n: TRON was animated in a bunch of software running in MACLISP on a PDP-10
2016-01-10T23:55:50Z mtl_: dreamaddict: yup
2016-01-10T23:56:05Z trinitr0n: if Disney plays nice maybe I can get these tape dumps released
2016-01-10T23:56:11Z dreamaddict: that seems like the compromise you make if you like Lisp but want to get a job
2016-01-10T23:56:12Z mtl_: trinitr0n: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirai_%28software%29
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2016-01-10T23:56:33Z dreamaddict: I don’t know anything about it really but that’s what the situation appears to be
2016-01-10T23:56:34Z jsgrant: Is javascript running on top of the JVM, I thought that was the reason Clojurescript was written?
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2016-01-10T23:56:44Z trinitr0n: dreamaddict: could be worse, I'm a PM now so I don't write anything for work
2016-01-10T23:57:26Z mtl_: dreamaddict: well, there's more to clojure than just running on the JVM
2016-01-10T23:57:51Z dreamaddict: it’s…a scheme?
2016-01-10T23:57:55Z trinitr0n: regarding ASAS, Lisp in TRON: http://www.red3d.com/cwr/papers/1982/ASAS82.html
2016-01-10T23:58:13Z aeth: Clojure's not a Scheme or a Common Lisp, it's its own thing
2016-01-10T23:58:15Z mtl_: it's focused on functional programming
2016-01-10T23:58:24Z aeth: And Clojure often departs from the Lispy way of doing things.
2016-01-10T23:58:25Z aeth: Afaik.
2016-01-10T23:58:30Z jsgrant: mtl_: Oh wow, had no idea via LOTR.
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2016-01-10T23:59:28Z mtl_: and designed for threads and concurrency and stuff
2016-01-10T23:59:32Z jsgrant: aeth: Well, it's certainly not very CLish, even though to my knowledge it started with the intention of being an implementation of such on the JVM; Strong object system, vs functionally oriented.
2016-01-10T23:59:42Z trinitr0n: mtl_: neat. it's an offshoot of S-GEOMETRY, which I have an early 80s copy of- https://www.instagram.com/p/1lsGMyNS8b/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n
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2016-01-11T00:00:25Z pillton: It is a bug to read white space characters after a terminating macro character isn't it?
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2016-01-11T00:00:52Z jsgrant: trinitr0n: Do you have a video somewhere showing of that software on that lispm, I seem to recall that vaguely?
2016-01-11T00:01:00Z trinitr0n: yeah
2016-01-11T00:01:04Z trinitr0n: I think it's on my twitter
2016-01-11T00:01:12Z trinitr0n: i'll check
2016-01-11T00:01:34Z aeth: jsgrant: It doesn't seem very Scheme-like, either. It doesn't have "automatic tail call coptimization" according to Wikipedia, and that's used heavily in Scheme. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clojure#Features
2016-01-11T00:01:36Z jsgrant: trinitr0n: Ah yeah, I think you are right -- that I saw it from a link off there.
2016-01-11T00:01:52Z aeth:  *optimization
2016-01-11T00:02:21Z trinitr0n: https://twitter.com/tr1nitr0n/status/640245142494953472
2016-01-11T00:02:22Z aeth: It also apparently has macros closer to CL
2016-01-11T00:03:43Z jsgrant: Yeah, that was it.
2016-01-11T00:03:54Z trinitr0n: I need to shoot more
2016-01-11T00:04:00Z trinitr0n: the power supply on that machine shit out
2016-01-11T00:04:23Z trinitr0n: I actually have three 3620s, and all the supplies have blown transistors
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2016-01-11T00:07:50Z pillton found the answer in the clhs entry about read.
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2016-01-11T01:20:27Z prion: Hi! I have a little problem: I try to install a package with quicklisp, "lisp-critic", which verify my code; but after the "(ql:quickload "lisp-critic")" command, which respond by anothing seems to work... Do I miss a command?
2016-01-11T01:20:57Z prion: respond by: ("lisp-critic"), which must say that the package is well installed...
2016-01-11T01:23:34Z prion: I find out: I must call the package with (use-package '#:lisp-critic). Thanks anyway!
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2016-01-11T02:36:33Z loke: Good morning lisp
2016-01-11T02:37:00Z jsgrant: Good evening loke.
2016-01-11T02:37:28Z Heranort_: Good morning
2016-01-11T02:37:28Z minion: Heranort_, memo from pjb: there's a very nice python<->CL bridge explained in ELS2014. "CLAUDE – The Common Lisp Library Audience Expansion Toolkit". http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/editions/2014/ELS2014.pdf
2016-01-11T02:37:48Z Heranort_: Wow! that is cool!
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2016-01-11T02:38:24Z Heranort_: i'll check about that. thx!
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2016-01-11T02:52:18Z Heranort_: oh this one works on lispworks on windows, and to install it i must have a paid license, i don't have that :-|
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2016-01-11T04:42:19Z PuercoPop: Heranort_: there is also burgled-batteries
2016-01-11T04:42:40Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/mmontone/burgled-batteries
2016-01-11T04:43:05Z PuercoPop: if you want to access Python libraries from CL
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2016-01-11T05:16:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-01-11T05:16:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: morning
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2016-01-11T06:22:26Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-01-11T07:17:26Z emaczen: can subclasses inherit initforms or initargs? If so, how -- I keep getting a slot unbound error and I don't want to have to write a default-initarg for each subclass...
2016-01-11T07:18:48Z Bike: they should inherit them without you doing anything.
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2016-01-11T07:22:41Z emaczen: Bike: I have an initialize-instance method for each subclass -- could this be affecting it?
2016-01-11T07:23:27Z Bike: i'm sure it could
2016-01-11T07:23:51Z emaczen: but shouldn't the default initform be set if an initarg for that field is never passed into "initialize-instance"?
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2016-01-11T07:28:02Z Bike: well, i don't know what you're doing. shared-initialize is i think what does the "check for args and if there isn't one use the initform" stuff, if you're totally overriding it that might nto happen.
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2016-01-11T09:01:16Z shka: yo
2016-01-11T09:01:45Z shka: does anybody happen to know what is the possible way to represent graph in persistent data structure?
2016-01-11T09:06:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: shka: Persistant as in immutable, but keeping around references to unchanged parts of the graph when you create a new one based on an existing one?
2016-01-11T09:06:10Z shka: yes
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2016-01-11T10:20:20Z flip214: shka: build trees of connections, and share subtrees?
2016-01-11T10:20:39Z flip214: or perhaps even tries
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2016-01-11T10:22:22Z shka: flip214: how that would look like?
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2016-01-11T10:23:21Z flip214: well, have a structure with (from to) for the connections, and build a tree of them?
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2016-01-11T10:25:19Z shka: hmmm
2016-01-11T10:25:50Z shka: flip214: and what would be root?
2016-01-11T10:26:42Z flip214: sorry, I don't understand that question.
2016-01-11T10:26:49Z shka: root of the tree
2016-01-11T10:27:01Z shka: but that was silly question
2016-01-11T10:27:39Z flip214: you need some way to get the tree ordered, I guess... do you have some order for the vertices?
2016-01-11T10:27:56Z shka: i kinda have in this scenario
2016-01-11T10:29:15Z flip214: for nodes (1 2 3) the connection tree might look like (((1 2) (1 3)) (2 3))  .. after removing the (2 3) connection you'll be left with the ((1 2) (1 3)) subtree
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2016-01-11T10:49:44Z shka: flip214: interesting, but i want to have everything biderectional
2016-01-11T10:56:20Z flip214: shka: yes, no problem.
2016-01-11T10:56:37Z flip214: just define a connection tuple to be stored in ascending vertex order.
2016-01-11T10:57:00Z shka: clever idea!
2016-01-11T10:58:30Z shka: but I would like to get quick answer to the question "where i can go from this node?"
2016-01-11T10:59:04Z flip214: well, then store each connection twice - (1 2) and (2 1)
2016-01-11T10:59:25Z flip214: then the tree should be O(log(2* connections)) again
2016-01-11T10:59:34Z shka: thats a little bit :( though
2016-01-11T10:59:53Z shka: anyway
2016-01-11T10:59:57Z shka: flip214: thanks for ideas
2016-01-11T11:00:16Z shka: you gave me some great input
2016-01-11T11:00:30Z flip214: if you only store once, then you can still do O(log(N)) for the "from" connections, and then have O(N*log(N)) for the "..to" parts
2016-01-11T11:01:43Z shka: and i can use some sort of lookup table
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2016-01-11T11:02:00Z shka: but no
2016-01-11T11:02:10Z shka: that would defeat whole purpose of tree
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2016-01-11T11:03:23Z shka: flip214: i have any idea
2016-01-11T11:03:59Z shka: basicly, i would use something like HAMT
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2016-01-11T11:04:18Z shka: each trie would be nodes that i can get from there
2016-01-11T11:04:42Z shka: to update structure, i would do copy on write
2016-01-11T11:04:55Z shka: on all paths that should be modified
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2016-01-11T11:06:01Z shka: anyway, i have ideas
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2016-01-11T12:13:26Z sconery: (good (day))
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2016-01-11T13:21:05Z flip214: (every #'good days)
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2016-01-11T13:38:45Z loke``: flip214: → NIL
2016-01-11T13:38:48Z loke``: or no?
2016-01-11T13:39:21Z Heranort: maybe (some #'good days)
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2016-01-11T13:42:18Z loke``: (remove (complement #'good) days)
2016-01-11T13:42:48Z loke``: Hmm, I mean
2016-01-11T13:42:53Z loke``: (remove-if (complement #'good) days)
2016-01-11T13:44:29Z flip214: loke``: REMOVE-IF-NOT ?
2016-01-11T13:44:42Z Heranort: that is no further supported...
2016-01-11T13:45:05Z loke``: flip214: Yeah, I know.
2016-01-11T13:45:16Z flip214: I thought that it should stay, ie. that the deprecation has been deprecated?
2016-01-11T13:45:29Z loke``: remove-if-not is much better, but then I wouldn't have had the opportunity to show off my 31337 skillz with COMPLEMENT.
2016-01-11T13:45:48Z flip214: yeah, right.
2016-01-11T13:46:02Z flip214: (NOT #'complement) ;)
2016-01-11T13:46:27Z loke``: flip214: And yes, you are right. The deprecation was silly to begin with. And it's not like there's a new CL standard coming that will remove it.
2016-01-11T13:46:28Z Heranort: nice show :-D
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2016-01-11T13:50:16Z Heranort: i found about poems written in perl and i wonder is there any poem written in lisp?
2016-01-11T13:50:42Z Heranort: the sexp poem \o/
2016-01-11T13:51:17Z zwdr: the punctuation would suck wouldnt it :D
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2016-01-11T13:52:39Z mtl_: and does let rhyme with let* ?
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2016-01-11T13:52:59Z Heranort: zwdr: full of @#$@%$@ :D
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2016-01-11T14:10:43Z jackdaniel: /'_°-°_'\
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2016-01-11T14:27:54Z splittist: http://community.schemewiki.org/?lisp-poetry
2016-01-11T14:28:14Z splittist: apropos Heranort ^
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2016-01-11T14:28:55Z jackdaniel: heheh
2016-01-11T14:29:14Z jackdaniel: the lambda ascii-art is great, I saw it somehwere once
2016-01-11T14:29:18Z jackdaniel: before
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2016-01-11T14:44:15Z otwieracz: Hi!
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2016-01-11T14:50:02Z Heranort: good evening
2016-01-11T14:54:33Z otwieracz: Let's say I've got got asd system „proj-a”
2016-01-11T14:54:41Z otwieracz: And following hierarchy on FS:
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2016-01-11T14:54:46Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304962
2016-01-11T14:55:05Z otwieracz: I'm adding directory with proj-a.asd to ql:*local-project-directories*
2016-01-11T14:55:39Z otwieracz: And now, in asdf:defsystem #:proj-a
2016-01-11T14:55:55Z otwieracz: How can I specify to look for #:dep-b inder submodules/common-dependencies/dep-b?
2016-01-11T14:58:30Z contrapunctus: I also have an ASDF question (...sort of). If one has a program backend, a CLI, and a GUI - what's the usual way to organize them into systems? (assuming one wants to use the package inferred system, which I gather new projects should be...)
2016-01-11T14:59:27Z moore33: I'm not seeing the attraction of the package inferred approach, but then I'm a dinosaur.
2016-01-11T15:02:03Z dlowe: I don't like the package inferred approach, myself.
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2016-01-11T15:03:26Z Xach_: otwieracz: I don't know, sorry. If I was in that situation, i'd teach asdf about the location instead (e.g. with :tree) or use the fact that local-projects scans the whole tree too.
2016-01-11T15:03:29Z contrapunctus: s/should be/should/
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2016-01-11T15:04:05Z otwieracz: Xach_: How does :tree work?
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2016-01-11T15:04:23Z otwieracz: It will let me include another .add?
2016-01-11T15:04:47Z contrapunctus: moore33 , dlowe - I see...and suppose one doesn't use the package-inferred-system?
2016-01-11T15:05:07Z Xach_: otwieracz: it makes note of every .asd in a directory tree at every level
2016-01-11T15:05:32Z Xach_: otwieracz: like local-projects does
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2016-01-11T15:06:04Z moore33: contrapunctus: Use large packages for symbols, something else for dependencies :)
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2016-01-11T15:06:47Z otwieracz: Xach_: how asdf will act, if I will have multiple structures like this one
2016-01-11T15:07:04Z otwieracz: Xach_: but with different version of dep-b for example?
2016-01-11T15:07:30Z contrapunctus: moore33: I meant how to organize it into /systems/ o.o
2016-01-11T15:07:35Z otwieracz: (my-project-1 depends on dep-b git submodule in revision X, my-project-2 needs dep-b revision Y)
2016-01-11T15:07:35Z dlowe: contrapunctus: My projects usually have the structure doc/ src/ tests/ with asd files on the top level
2016-01-11T15:07:36Z Xach_: otwieracz: If you want to load different versions, you must reconfigure asdf
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2016-01-11T15:08:01Z dlowe: sometimes I have a compile/ directory for package definitions and macros that src/ depends on
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2016-01-11T15:08:19Z dlowe: so it rebuilds the whole src/ tree when I change a macro
2016-01-11T15:08:29Z Xach_: otwieracz: I don't think there is a convenient way to do what you're talking about, sorry. But I also don't know asdf very well.
2016-01-11T15:08:34Z moore33: contrapunctus: I haven't really found my way through that. I am not an asdf power user. Yet.
2016-01-11T15:09:11Z otwieracz: Xach_: because there's no way to work with two systems, each one depending on different version of one software
2016-01-11T15:09:25Z contrapunctus: hm. I see, thanks dlowe , moore33
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2016-01-11T15:09:40Z Xach_: otwieracz: That's correct. In a single session, you can't load distinct versions of the same project to satisfy other requirements.
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2016-01-11T15:10:42Z otwieracz: I am not even talking about single session.
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2016-01-11T15:11:19Z Xach_: otwieracz: The way to do it is to reconfigure asdf, then.
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2016-01-11T15:11:31Z otwieracz: What do you mean by reconfiguring asdf?
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2016-01-11T15:12:32Z Xach_: otwieracz: It has to know about the structure of systems you want to load into a particular session. So it must be made to ignore or overlook conflicting different versions of the same project.
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2016-01-11T15:16:26Z Xach_: otwieracz: asdf configuration has a major escape hatch in asdf:*system-definition-search-functions*. So if you can't figure out how to use asdf to configure paths to system files, you might be able to write your own function to do exactly what you want and put it in that list.
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2016-01-11T15:23:37Z otwieracz: Xach_: stupid question – what if I will do (load "submodules/blabla/dep-b/dep-b.asd")
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2016-01-11T15:23:48Z otwieracz: Because asdf files are just loaded
2016-01-11T15:25:03Z Xach_: otwieracz: They aren't just loaded - the environment established by load-system is different in certain ways than a plain load
2016-01-11T15:25:13Z otwieracz: Oh. Ok.
2016-01-11T15:25:26Z Xach_: otwieracz: There was an internal function named something like load-system-file that I think should be part of supported external functionality, but I don't know if that has happened
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2016-01-11T15:30:48Z otwieracz: damn
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2016-01-11T15:35:29Z fe[nl]ix: ASDF/BACKWARD-INTERNALS:LOAD-SYSDEF
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2016-01-11T15:42:47Z otwieracz: fe[nl]ix: however, this still sounds like dirty hack
2016-01-11T15:43:18Z otwieracz: fe[nl]ix: and I am not convinced to use it just to match git-submodule workflow
2016-01-11T15:43:46Z otwieracz: (the idea is to have common dependencies pinned to specific versions for each project)
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2016-01-11T15:45:00Z fe[nl]ix: that has nothing to do with the issue that the way to (re)load a .asd file is the function above
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2016-01-11T16:20:11Z dwchandler: I've seen/read several times that the state of free software lisp environments today is still lacking compared to the days of lisp machines (zmacs, et al).
2016-01-11T16:20:42Z dwchandler: Anyone know of a good writeup of this, or other pointers to concrete criticisms/details?
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2016-01-11T16:21:13Z Xach_: I don't know of many details, but it would make sense, given that the lisp machine companies were well-capitalized and hired a lot of great people to do a ton of great work.
2016-01-11T16:21:27Z dwchandler: Is the state of commercial environments approaching or ahead of the days of lisp machines?
2016-01-11T16:21:36Z Xach_: Commercial CL environmens?
2016-01-11T16:21:51Z dwchandler: Yes, commercial CL
2016-01-11T16:21:57Z moore33: You can download all the Symbolics manuals and decide for yourself.
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2016-01-11T16:22:25Z dwchandler: moore33: well, I'm not sure I have the perspective to make all the judgements
2016-01-11T16:22:30Z Xach_: dwchandler: I think it's a bit hard to compare because of the high level of top to bottom integration of the lisp machines.
2016-01-11T16:22:48Z jsgrant: dwchandler: Here is a write up what Beach put out of what he wants in a modern LispOS, that is prety nice as a basic overview.
2016-01-11T16:22:57Z Xach_: Where there's a single documentation system interwoven into everything, a single language, a coherent suite of tools and stuff.
2016-01-11T16:23:20Z Xach_: The benefit we get of these modern times is much, much greater hardware speed.
2016-01-11T16:23:24Z Xach_: So much.
2016-01-11T16:24:05Z jsgrant: A lot of the the issues in modern CL implementations (as far as I can tell) if one wants a LispM like-env, a is not so much a technical issue, as much as "not done/practical/costly" thing.
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2016-01-11T16:24:37Z mordocai: jsgrant: Do you have a link to that beach write up?
2016-01-11T16:24:54Z mordocai: I'm not sure what beach's name is so not sure how to google it
2016-01-11T16:24:56Z jsgrant: mordocai: Woops, thought I posted it. https://github.com/robert-strandh/LispOS
2016-01-11T16:24:58Z dwchandler: Xach_: exactly. with modern speeds, things like lighttable (where things are shown live) become practical, and other things nobody has done yet
2016-01-11T16:25:12Z mordocai: jsgrant: thanks
2016-01-11T16:25:21Z moore33: Lisp Machines didn't have a web browser (heh, not actually sure of that) which you could use to look stuff up on StackOverflow
2016-01-11T16:25:34Z dwchandler: jsgrant: thanks for the link :)
2016-01-11T16:26:14Z jsgrant: Xach: I would /love/ if CL picked up Skriba or something; Lack of a common documentation base is something that is a bit saddening for me, and was a big draw personally that had me looking at Racket before I started taking CL a lot more seriously.
2016-01-11T16:26:44Z Xach_: jsgrant: I would like it if docs were a solved problem, but it seems like a hard one.
2016-01-11T16:27:13Z jsgrant: Xach: Yeah, it's not like there's a "central authority" thing like Racket has.
2016-01-11T16:27:31Z Xach_: jsgrant: and people come from so many different backgrounds and motivation, too.
2016-01-11T16:28:10Z jsgrant: Organically, it'd have to be something like asdf or ql, where people see the value of it over other solutions and it just becomes expected.
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2016-01-11T16:29:01Z jsgrant: Markdown and/or plaintext is pretty ubiquitous at this point, but it's so limited that I really don't want it to be the defacto.
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2016-01-11T16:29:52Z jsgrant: Even org-mode is fine, and it'll get you pretty far all-and-all, but still.
2016-01-11T16:29:53Z contrapunctus: speaking of LispOSes...anyone know what became of the development on Mezzano? Seems to have stalled...which'd suck :\
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2016-01-11T16:31:16Z jsgrant: contrapunctus: Froggery has been working on it for years, I think it just got to the point where he felt he could post it; I doubt it's really stalled, he's probably just not pushed to master in a longtime or life has been busy and it's still just a side project to him -- so it's not on his main priority list.
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2016-01-11T16:31:40Z jsgrant: I doubt he's 'done or similar, since on the repo it's marked as a demo.
2016-01-11T16:31:44Z jsgrant: in the*
2016-01-11T16:32:13Z jackdaniel: regarding the lisp OS'es, there is also interim (https://github.com/mntmn/interim)
2016-01-11T16:32:14Z jsgrant still hasn't really played with it yet, but is on his to do list.
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2016-01-11T16:32:25Z contrapunctus: jsgrant: same here
2016-01-11T16:32:36Z contrapunctus: hey, jackdaniel . thanks, checking it out.
2016-01-11T16:32:56Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: Yeah, when they add usb support so I can use a generic keyboard I'll be a bit more interested. :^P
2016-01-11T16:33:14Z jsgrant: I vaguely recall that's higher on his priority list though.
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2016-01-11T16:33:20Z contrapunctus: "The shell is the editor is the REPL is the language is the compiler." heh
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2016-01-11T16:35:51Z contrapunctus is reading the 'documentation' in beach's LispOS repo. Nice - it seems like well-thought-out stuff (so far).
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2016-01-11T16:37:07Z jsgrant: I was just thinking how limiting deving and OS and running it of a RPi would be .... then realized the laptop I'm running probably has lower specs than the second model it's targeted off from. :^I
2016-01-11T16:37:14Z jsgrant: an OS*
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2016-01-11T16:38:24Z jsgrant: contrapunctus: Yeah, it's a really nice read.
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2016-01-11T16:44:51Z froggey: contrapunctus: jsgrant is right, I've been busy with other stuff. don't worry, I'll keep working on it
2016-01-11T16:45:54Z rpg: Random portability question: I am wrapping LET around a top-level DEFUN to (on some implementations) control optimizations. By making the DEFUN non top-level, is this likely to make it less efficient? I have a vague memory of this not being A Good Thing To Do, but no specifics...
2016-01-11T16:46:00Z contrapunctus: whoa! :D
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2016-01-11T16:46:36Z contrapunctus: froggey: I haven't run it yet but nevertheless - congratulations on this achievement, and thank you for sharing this work!
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2016-01-11T16:47:48Z froggey: thanks
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2016-01-11T16:49:40Z moore33: rpg: Well, obviously your function is now a closure, which may be less efficient than a non-closure, but also may be the best way to do what you want.
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2016-01-11T16:55:11Z rpg: moore33: that's what I was thinking.  I see what I was doing wrong now, I think.
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2016-01-11T17:08:45Z RealityVoid: Hello... i'm trying to learn lisp using Practical Common lisp and I installed lispbox on windows.. but none of the slime commands don't seem to work...
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2016-01-11T17:21:15Z jasom: RealityVoid: the lispbox from there is a bit old, but I'm surprised it doesn't work at all... Can you give an example of what doesn't work (and how it doesn't work)?
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2016-01-11T17:22:01Z RealityVoid: jasom, I got the lispbox from https://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ I didn't know that PCL site had a lispbox variant
2016-01-11T17:24:56Z jasom: RealityVoid: no, that's what I meant IIRC PCL linked to that, right?
2016-01-11T17:25:12Z RealityVoid: but it works, calling the command with M-x slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp for example works, and running slime commands in slime works, just the shortcuts don't seem to work... for example C-x C-] should call the same M-x slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp but that doesn't happen...
2016-01-11T17:25:26Z jasom: that's really annoying
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2016-01-11T17:26:49Z jasom: I'm not near a functioning windows machine right now, but you can try this as well: http://www.iqool.de/lispstick.html#sec-4-1
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2016-01-11T17:27:28Z mordocai: RealityVoid: I'd imagine you are hitting windows/emacs issues. Keybindings are something that don't always work the same across platforms.
2016-01-11T17:27:34Z mordocai: It is also using an old emacs which can'thelp
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2016-01-11T17:28:19Z jasom doesn't have that keybinding in his map
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2016-01-11T17:28:54Z jasom: but C-h k C-x C-] should at least tell you if emacs thinks it is bound
2016-01-11T17:29:06Z RealityVoid: jasom, thanks, I'll look into that... sorry if seeming noobish but yesterday was my first experience with emacs and lisp so I might ask silly thigs
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2016-01-11T17:29:13Z RealityVoid: jasom, it says the command isn't bound
2016-01-11T17:29:15Z jasom: RealityVoid: no, this is a totally legit problem
2016-01-11T17:29:37Z jasom: RealityVoid: so yeah, it thinks it isn't bound; did you add this keybinding, or expect it to be there already?
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2016-01-11T17:30:28Z jasom: because in my fairly vanilla sime setup, I do not have this particular keybinding
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2016-01-11T17:32:46Z RealityVoid: from my understanding it souhl be there already, no? I C-h f slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp and it has a link to slime-editing-commands.el... over there, we have (define-key slime-mode-map "\C-c\C-]" 'slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp)))
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2016-01-11T17:33:26Z RealityVoid: should I manually add the slime-editing-commands.el or whould it be loaded by sefault on lispbox?
2016-01-11T17:34:03Z moore33: RealityVoid: Uh, it says C-c C-]
2016-01-11T17:34:10Z moore33: not C-x C-}
2016-01-11T17:34:16Z moore33: C-x C-]
2016-01-11T17:35:03Z RealityVoid: moore33, yes, I typoed into irc, that's what I used, sorry..
2016-01-11T17:35:24Z moore33: RealityVoid: OK. I have no further insight into your problem :)
2016-01-11T17:35:37Z jasom: okay, now *that* keybinding I have
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2016-01-11T17:40:48Z RealityVoid: huh, wierd... did you guys recieve that i typed the C-x C-] as  C-x C-} ?
2016-01-11T17:41:59Z moore33: RealityVoid: No, that was my typo.
2016-01-11T17:43:31Z RealityVoid: oh, ok, thought something was wierd...
2016-01-11T17:43:59Z RealityVoid: Is there a shortcut to load an .el file while emacs is rumming by any chance?
2016-01-11T17:44:06Z jsgrant should look into Lispstick more, would be nice to potentially carry around a CL-dev env.
2016-01-11T17:45:18Z jsgrant: RealityVoid: Bind '(load-file "whatever.el") to something? I don't know if it's binded to any key chord by default though.
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2016-01-11T17:55:00Z xantoz: RealityVoid: you can load files from inside dired-mode IIRC
2016-01-11T17:55:22Z xantoz: L
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2016-01-11T18:06:48Z RealityVoid: So I tried running lispbox on my linux pc and it doesn't have that command mapped by default there either, so I should deff be doing something extra so those commands are active..
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2016-01-11T18:12:16Z jasom: RealityVoid: wait, is this in the repl, or when editing a lisp file?
2016-01-11T18:12:51Z jsgrant: RealityVoid: Do you want to load, as in eval from, or to open it up to edit it?
2016-01-11T18:13:00Z jasom: that key is not bound in the repl, but it is bound when editing lisp files
2016-01-11T18:13:10Z jasom just noticed that
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2016-01-11T18:14:26Z RealityVoid: shit... yeesh, that was it..
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2016-01-11T18:14:53Z RealityVoid: I knew it was something stupid.. :|
2016-01-11T18:15:55Z RealityVoid: how did you tell where the key is bound?
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2016-01-11T18:17:47Z contrapunctus: RealityVoid: F1 k <press the key sequence>
2016-01-11T18:18:08Z contrapunctus: RealityVoid: alternatively, C-h instead of F1
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2016-01-11T18:22:14Z RealityVoid: heh, my router needed a restart and when joining it's wierd seeing my nick getting timed-out
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2016-01-11T20:39:20Z pjb: dwchandler: when was the last time you could see the source code of a widget on your iPad or iPhone, edit it, compile it, and continue using your application with your modifications taken int account?
2016-01-11T20:40:20Z mordocai: pjb: nil
2016-01-11T20:40:22Z mordocai: :P
2016-01-11T20:41:33Z pjb: mordocai: beach = Robert Strandh ; beach = playa = strandh
2016-01-11T20:42:06Z pjb: mordocai: right. And that's why Lisp Machines are still hundreds of years ahead. :-)
2016-01-11T20:42:12Z dwchandler: pjb: yeah, that's definitely one thing :)
2016-01-11T20:43:19Z pjb: dwchandler: that said, other systems have integrated those features.  Smalltalk (Squeak). HyperCard (more or less).  emacs (more or less).
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2016-01-11T20:44:06Z dwchandler: to a lesser degree, due to not running on a lisp os and being integrated with it, sure
2016-01-11T20:44:10Z pjb: dwchandler: while you could spend some times in designing a system that is inspectable and modifiable by the end-user, notice that it would be forbidden on iOS by Apple.
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2016-01-11T20:45:00Z dlowe: Seems like I remember some Hypercard-like thing built with scheme as the primary language
2016-01-11T20:45:21Z myrkraverk: pjb: even if installed "by hand" by the end user?
2016-01-11T20:45:27Z dwchandler: pjb: my real question was more along the lines of: given working on unix, mac, windows, what's missing from emacs+SLIME that was there in the good ol' days
2016-01-11T20:46:04Z dwchandler: so stuff that about integrating with the OS or windowing system is interesting but not really applicable immediately
2016-01-11T20:46:12Z pjb: myrkraverk: By definition, if you can use Xcode and have paid the Apple Developer Program to get the developper key to sign the application that you install on your test device, you are not an end-user.
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2016-01-11T20:47:13Z pjb: dwchandler: I guess the best would be to watch the youtube video you can find on lisp machines, and to readh the little documentation that is remaining. You can also run OpenGenera in an emulator.
2016-01-11T20:47:17Z myrkraverk: pjb: so it's not possible to download something from the 'net and install it "by hand" ?
2016-01-11T20:47:37Z pjb: myrkraverk: for a end-user, no. For a registered developper, yes.
2016-01-11T20:47:38Z dwchandler nods
2016-01-11T20:47:44Z myrkraverk: pjb: ok
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2016-01-11T20:48:04Z mordocai: You can also do it through jailbreaking but whether or not that is legal has been debated lately
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2016-01-11T20:48:23Z pjb: There's a reason Android has still some developer mindshare.
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2016-01-11T21:01:34Z myrkraverk: If I understand the American legal system correctly, it'll remain a "debate" until it goes through a judge.
2016-01-11T21:01:46Z myrkraverk: And even that will not solve the question in other jurisdictions.
2016-01-11T21:02:41Z prxq: myrkraverk: that's mostly the same in other legal systems.
2016-01-11T21:02:50Z myrkraverk: I see.
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2016-01-11T21:03:37Z jasom: myrkraverk: or until the legislature passes a law that clearly makes it legal or illegal
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2016-01-11T21:23:50Z pjb: myrkraverk: of course.
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2016-01-11T21:59:03Z sid_cypher: i've just read LispOS documentation.  a big global address space with a nosql-like object store, RAM as a cache to that space, security by trusted compiler or usermode sandboxing - all those things seem doable and would be great to have.
2016-01-11T22:00:04Z sid_cypher: device drivers, however, would have to be reused from another OS as is - reimplementing them is not viable until strong AI :)
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2016-01-11T22:53:39Z jasom: sid_cypher: http://rumpkernel.org/ <-- good place to start for drivers; 2-clause BSD license
2016-01-11T22:56:18Z p_l: sid_cypher: single address space for all storage is... peculiar thing in practice
2016-01-11T22:56:35Z p_l: sid_cypher: That said, one company managed that and sold it quite well
2016-01-11T22:57:48Z sid_cypher: jasom: great link, thanks
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2016-01-11T23:07:23Z Denommus: any stumpwm users here?
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2016-01-11T23:07:33Z Denommus: is there a "standard" way of defining the default groups?
2016-01-11T23:08:45Z sid_cypher: p_l: oh, there would be a lot of peculiar things to such an OS, i'm sure :)  nevermind developer's practice, how about sticking an NTFS flash drive in and... dumping an object subset onto it, presumably with on-the-fly attribute metadate to file format metadata conversion (like ID3 or EXIF)
2016-01-11T23:09:09Z Bike: Denommus: #stumpwm
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2016-01-11T23:13:18Z mtl_: Denommus: yes
2016-01-11T23:13:28Z mtl_: come to #stumpwm
2016-01-11T23:14:06Z mtl_: and I will try to help
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2016-01-11T23:24:39Z p_l: sid_cypher: you might want to get a hold of AS/400, nowadays sold as IBM i
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2016-01-11T23:26:51Z zch: New to programming, any tips on how I could write this better?: https://clbin.com/3R1ee - It's swapping the first and last elements of a list
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2016-01-11T23:28:28Z jasom: zch; if destructive operations are okay: (rotatef (car list) (car (last list))
2016-01-11T23:29:07Z zch: Haven't learned about the rotate function, thanks
2016-01-11T23:29:31Z jasom: zch: note that this destructively modifies the list, which your original function does not do
2016-01-11T23:30:31Z zch: Yeah, my function is making a new list and operating on that
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2016-01-11T23:31:50Z jasom: also your function won't work if there are duplicate elements in the list
2016-01-11T23:32:00Z jasom: clhs butlast
2016-01-11T23:32:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_butlas.htm
2016-01-11T23:32:10Z zch: jasom: yeah, saw that
2016-01-11T23:32:15Z zch: didnt know what to do about it
2016-01-11T23:34:25Z jasom: zch: hint: there is a primitive function in lisp that gives you all but the first item in a list
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2016-01-11T23:35:35Z jasom: you'll also want to handle lists of 0 or 1 elements correctly (my short rotatef version does not handle empty-lists, btw)
2016-01-11T23:35:48Z jasom: but I have to go zch
2016-01-11T23:37:22Z zch: I could handle lists of 0 or 1 elements with cond
2016-01-11T23:37:28Z zch: or if actually
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2016-01-11T23:45:42Z pjb: zch: if the exercise is about manipulating cons cells, then you may want to copy the list yourself, and when reaching the last cell, exchange the car with that of the first one.
2016-01-11T23:45:52Z pjb: zch: thus providing O(n) time complexity.
2016-01-11T23:47:36Z zch: pjb: well the exercise just wanted me to swap the first and last elements of list, they didnt specify anything
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2016-01-11T23:48:04Z zch: Which is manipulating cons cells
2016-01-11T23:49:43Z zch: modified: https://clbin.com/1JI0t
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2016-01-11T23:50:42Z pjb: zch: still worse than jasom's.
2016-01-11T23:51:19Z pjb: zch: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304984
2016-01-11T23:52:11Z zch: Oh, thats nice
2016-01-11T23:52:31Z pjb: zch: yours walks the list 6 times, and copies it 5 times.
2016-01-11T23:52:55Z pjb: zch: said otherwise, it's horrible (when applied on long lists).
2016-01-11T23:55:52Z pjb: zch: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304984#1
2016-01-11T23:56:51Z pjb: zch: also, remove removes ALL the occurences: (let ((list '(1 2 1 2 1 2))) (remove (first list) list)) --> (2 2 2) ; oops
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2016-01-11T23:57:43Z pjb: You can use :count (let ((list '(1 2 1 2 1 2))) (remove (first list) list :count 1)) --> (2 1 2 1 2)
2016-01-11T23:58:01Z zch: Yeah, there some things in your code im not familiar with at ll
2016-01-11T23:58:03Z zch: all*
2016-01-11T23:58:14Z zch: like the :count and other things that begin with :
2016-01-11T23:58:17Z pjb: Only pure Common Lisp.
2016-01-11T23:58:17Z pjb:  
2016-01-11T23:58:25Z pjb: You've used REMOVE, therefore you should have read
2016-01-11T23:58:26Z pjb: clhs remove
2016-01-11T23:58:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
2016-01-11T23:58:33Z pjb: and therefore you should know about the :count parameter.
2016-01-11T23:58:36Z zch: And ive never seen (let (head tail old) that form
2016-01-11T23:58:45Z zch: where your defining 3 variable names at once?
2016-01-11T23:58:50Z pjb: similarly, you've used it, so you MUST have read
2016-01-11T23:58:52Z pjb: clhs let
2016-01-11T23:58:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2016-01-11T23:58:57Z pjb: and know about this syntax.
2016-01-11T23:59:41Z pjb: When you use words, it is expected you have read their definition in the dictionary.
2016-01-11T23:59:53Z zch: I haven't read much documentation to be honest
2016-01-11T23:59:59Z zch: But I am now, thanks
2016-01-12T00:00:03Z pjb: zch: you know, the littl red button…
2016-01-12T00:00:28Z pjb: zch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuamSKIvhcA
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2016-01-12T00:04:13Z zch: lol
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2016-01-12T03:27:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-01-12T03:31:55Z beach: Any CLX experts around?  Maybe nyef?  On my computer, I have modified the keyboard mapping (using a GUI tool) so that my CapsLock is another Control key.  My CLX now returns the keycode for the CapsLock key both in the list of lock keycodes and in the list of control keycodes.
2016-01-12T03:31:56Z beach: Unfortunately, the McCLIM CLX backend seems to rely on it occurring in at most one of the lists.  I need to figure out whether this is a bug in the X11 server, a bug in CLX, or whether there is a way in CLX to query the server for the current modifier state.
2016-01-12T03:33:00Z trinitr0n: ls
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2016-01-12T03:34:17Z beach: Also, in the McCLIM CLX backend, there is a comment, presumably by gilberth, that for CLIM we want the modifier state as it is AFTER some key has been pressed, rather than BEFORE as is reported by the X server.  Why do we want that?  So that we can show pointer documentation and such?
2016-01-12T03:35:21Z mtl_: beach: I've done a similar thing in my xmodmap, setting capslock to hyper
2016-01-12T03:35:41Z mtl_: and I'm using stumpwm which is clx based
2016-01-12T03:35:57Z mtl_: it works fine though
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2016-01-12T03:36:15Z beach: Sure.  CLX correctly reports the modifier state, so that's not the problem.
2016-01-12T03:36:22Z mtl_: ah
2016-01-12T03:36:38Z mtl_: any use in me replicating it?
2016-01-12T03:36:39Z beach: The problem is that it appears to be impossible to deduce the modifier state using all the other information.
2016-01-12T03:36:53Z beach: The problem?
2016-01-12T03:36:57Z mtl_: yeah
2016-01-12T03:37:08Z beach: Thanks but no.  I know loke has it too.
2016-01-12T03:37:18Z mtl_: ok then
2016-01-12T03:37:24Z beach: And I know (as of yesterday) what the problem is.
2016-01-12T03:39:11Z beach: I could patch the return values of XLIB:MODIFIER-MAPPING so that a keycode occurs in at most one of the returned lists, but that would truly be a kludge.
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2016-01-12T03:41:34Z jsgrant waits for another decade, where Wayland is hopefully ubiquitous and most of this stuff will just be handled by a custom CL Compositor.
2016-01-12T03:41:52Z loke: The key problem in climacs?
2016-01-12T03:41:55Z loke: Yes, I have it. Annoying.
2016-01-12T03:42:12Z loke: beach: What is the problem caused by?
2016-01-12T03:43:17Z beach: The X11 server returns the CapsLock keycode as a member both of the list of lock keycodes and the list of control keycodes, but the McCLIM CLX backend assumes it is in at most one of the lists.
2016-01-12T03:44:17Z beach: If you start your Common Lisp, then open the default display, then call XLIB:MODIFIER-MAPPING, there should be a keycode that appears both in the second and in the third return value.
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2016-01-12T03:45:11Z loke: beach: So mcclim maked a bad assumption. The fix should be simple, no?
2016-01-12T03:45:15Z beach: No.
2016-01-12T03:45:34Z beach: If this behavior is correct, it is very annoying because then there is no way to query the X server for the current modifier state.
2016-01-12T03:45:52Z beach: And no way to deduce it from previous events.
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2016-01-12T03:48:03Z loke: That's right. I don't think there is a way to query for modifier state. You have to track it.
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2016-01-12T03:48:13Z loke: Oh wait
2016-01-12T03:48:23Z beach: I suspect (but I haven't gotten that far yet) that McCLIM uses this information to show pointer documentation.  So if you hold a control key down, the information displayed concerns button presses with the control modifier.  But if there is no way to find that out, then we are in trouble.
2016-01-12T03:48:34Z loke: no need to. Don't you get the modifier state as a bitmap tigether with every other KeyDown and KeyUp event?
2016-01-12T03:48:57Z beach: I get the modifier state BEFORE the key is pressed.
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2016-01-12T03:49:18Z beach: But I need to know it AFTER, so that when a control key is pressed, I know that the control key is down.
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2016-01-12T03:50:37Z Zhivago: http://www.x.org/archive/X11R7.5/doc/x11proto/proto.pdf
2016-01-12T03:50:39Z beach: So suppose there are currently no modifier keys pressed.  Then someone hits CapsLock.  Now, is the control modifier pressed, or the lock modifier?  No way of knowing.
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2016-01-12T03:51:03Z Zhivago: The KeyPress event carries the modifier state.
2016-01-12T03:51:19Z beach: It carries the modifier state BEFORE the key was pressed.
2016-01-12T03:52:38Z loke: You get get a KeyPress event for the key "a", say. And you hold Control at the same time, the KeyPress event for "a" will carry the modifier information for "control"
2016-01-12T03:53:02Z Zhivago: Perhaps beach is concerned about when you press the modifier key itself?
2016-01-12T03:53:19Z beach: loke: Correct, but if you (or I) press CapsLock, the modifier state will not include control.
2016-01-12T03:53:27Z loke: If so, then you'll get a KeyPress event for the "control" keycode. The modifiers doesn't even come into the picture.
2016-01-12T03:53:46Z Zhivago: Yeah. I'm not sure what the problem here is.
2016-01-12T03:53:48Z loke: beach: Caps Lock is special, if I remember correctly.
2016-01-12T03:54:00Z beach: loke: And that is the problem.
2016-01-12T03:54:02Z Zhivago: Is it about figuring out if the control keycode corresponds to a given modifier?
2016-01-12T03:54:46Z beach: Zhivago: It is about figuring out, given what key was pressed, what modifier that keypress changed, if any.
2016-01-12T03:54:50Z loke: beach: I can't see how caps lock is causing the problem, since I don't even have caps lock mapped on my keyboard.
2016-01-12T03:55:24Z beach: loke: And that is the problem because XLIB:MODIFIER-MAPPING still reports it as a LOCK modifier keycode.
2016-01-12T03:56:12Z loke: beach: You can't do that. Look at it like this: You may press Control when a differnt window is active, and then hold it down, move the mouse to your window and press a. That deliveres a KeyPress event with th "control" modifier to your application, but you never got the KeyPress for Control since that event was delivered to a different window.
2016-01-12T03:56:35Z beach: Yes, good point.
2016-01-12T03:57:09Z Zhivago: Hmm, is there a concrete example of the behavior you want? Why are you trying to predict state changes based on key presses?
2016-01-12T03:57:35Z beach: I think it has to do with McCLIM displaying pointer documentation, but I am not (yet) sure of that.
2016-01-12T03:58:17Z beach: So that if you press (say) a control key, the pointer documentation will change to show only what happens when you press a button with the control modifier in effect.
2016-01-12T03:59:02Z Zhivago: Is that undesirable?
2016-01-12T03:59:33Z beach: I might have to declare it impossible to do pointer documentation this way.
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2016-01-12T03:59:57Z loke: Don't you get modifier bits together with mouse events?
2016-01-12T04:00:01Z beach: As loke pointed out, I might not receive the event for the control key being pressed.
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2016-01-12T04:00:42Z beach: loke: It attempts to display documentation SO THAT YOU KNOW WHAT BUTTON TO PRESS, not so that you know what you just did.
2016-01-12T04:00:43Z Zhivago: Well, you don't need to because the window crossing event will carry that state?
2016-01-12T04:01:15Z beach: Zhivago: Really, I didn't realize those events had the state in them.  Maybe they do.
2016-01-12T04:02:05Z loke: If you just listen for all events, you can get a pretty good idea of the modifier state by just tracking the bits in them. If it include all KeyDown/KeyUp events plus the mouse events you're decently covered?
2016-01-12T04:02:21Z Zhivago: Hmm, let's check the spec.
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2016-01-12T04:03:45Z beach: loke: Except when the key-press event is of a modifier key.  Then you don't know the modifier state AFTER they key was pressed.
2016-01-12T04:03:51Z Zhivago: Looks like MotionNotify carries the key-and-button state with it.
2016-01-12T04:04:27Z loke: beach: Yeah, so what you really want is somehow one more event after that...
2016-01-12T04:05:00Z Zhivago: Ok, I see the problem.
2016-01-12T04:05:34Z loke: Zhivago: Yes. Me too. Inetersting one.
2016-01-12T04:05:39Z beach: Thanks for doing this, both of you.
2016-01-12T04:05:58Z beach: I now see that I need a different way of tracking modifier state.
2016-01-12T04:06:24Z loke: I'm starting to think if there is some way of using XTEST to inject a synthetic (unused) keypress after the other one just to check the state.
2016-01-12T04:06:39Z beach: That would be one possibility.
2016-01-12T04:06:57Z loke: That said, I's been years (decades) since I last touched XTEST so I honestly don't know if that's a viable approach.
2016-01-12T04:07:40Z beach: There are several options here.  I need to contemplate them before deciding something.
2016-01-12T04:08:04Z Zhivago: Hmm. Looks like MotionNotify needs to inform you of state changes, which makes sense.
2016-01-12T04:08:22Z Zhivago: e.g., for rubberbanding delimited by a modifier.
2016-01-12T04:08:31Z beach: AHA!
2016-01-12T04:08:32Z Zhivago: In which case, perhaps the problem doesn't actually exist.
2016-01-12T04:08:41Z beach: query-pointer returns the state it seems.
2016-01-12T04:08:49Z Zhivago: You could also poll that.
2016-01-12T04:09:16Z loke: beach: What does query-pointer map to?
2016-01-12T04:09:31Z beach: "map to"?
2016-01-12T04:09:40Z Zhivago: It queries the state of the pointer.
2016-01-12T04:09:50Z loke: beach: What Xlib call does it do?
2016-01-12T04:09:50Z beach: Duh! :)
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2016-01-12T04:10:06Z beach: loke: It doesn't map to any Xlib calls.
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2016-01-12T04:10:19Z beach: loke: CLX goes directly to the protocol.
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2016-01-12T04:10:32Z loke: beach: Ah yeah, but Xlib also does that.
2016-01-12T04:10:39Z Zhivago: XQueryPointer.
2016-01-12T04:10:47Z loke: beach: Almost all Xlib calls maps 1-to-1 to an Xprotocol call.
2016-01-12T04:10:55Z Zhivago: They weren't very imaginative, fortunately. :)
2016-01-12T04:11:15Z loke: Ah right. So XQueryPointer will return the modifier mask. There you have it.
2016-01-12T04:11:27Z Zhivago: Yeah, but you don't really want to do that if you can avoid it.
2016-01-12T04:11:46Z Zhivago: See if MotionNotify will tell you about modifier state changes.
2016-01-12T04:11:54Z loke: Zhivago: He can do it after every KeyPress event of a modifier key
2016-01-12T04:12:10Z loke: Zhivago: It doesn't. At least xev doesn't do it.
2016-01-12T04:12:19Z loke: Zhivago: And xev print s all events, AFAIK
2016-01-12T04:12:26Z loke: It does give motion notify events.
2016-01-12T04:12:40Z loke: (and I din't get a MptionNotify when I press any key)
2016-01-12T04:13:04Z Zhivago: Hmm, ah well.
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2016-01-12T04:16:16Z beach: This is great!  I have a much better picture of what my options are.
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2016-01-12T04:31:23Z beach: Step 1: verify that the information about the current modifier state is used only for pointer documentation.
2016-01-12T04:31:28Z beach: If so, then Step 2: remove the bogus attempt at tracking the current modifier state by looking at key-press and key-release events, since that technique doesn't work anyway.
2016-01-12T04:31:33Z beach: Step 3: Figure out a different way of tracking modifier state.
2016-01-12T04:31:34Z beach: Step 4: implement it.
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2016-01-12T04:32:12Z beach: It will temporarily break pointer documentation, but at least ESA applications will work again.
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2016-01-12T04:37:19Z loke: Yay
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2016-01-12T05:17:46Z drmeister: Hey lispers,  (defmethod foo :around (x) (bar x) (call-next-method)) (defmethod foo (y) (baz y))   is equivalent to (defun foo-fun (x) (bar x) (baz x)) - correct?
2016-01-12T05:18:29Z H4ns: for some value of "equivalent", yes.
2016-01-12T05:18:36Z nyef: Modulo redefinition semantics, yes.
2016-01-12T05:18:37Z drmeister: I'm reading someone else's code and I don't see why they made foo a generic function.
2016-01-12T05:18:54Z H4ns: because they could?
2016-01-12T05:19:00Z drmeister: Right - redefinition semantics.
2016-01-12T05:19:09Z nyef: And can't you use a :before qualifier there instead of :around?
2016-01-12T05:19:12Z Bike: because letting people write their own methods is nice sometimes
2016-01-12T05:19:36Z drmeister: Right, all good reasons.
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2016-01-12T05:20:30Z drmeister: I'm not criticizing, I'm reimplementing stuff in C++ and I need equivalent behavior.
2016-01-12T05:21:13Z nyef: ... why?
2016-01-12T05:21:59Z nyef: (Why reimplement in C++, that is, not why equivalent behavior.)
2016-01-12T05:22:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is it from C++ or to C++?
2016-01-12T05:22:45Z drmeister: To C++ and it's a side project.
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2016-01-12T05:23:51Z H4ns: "we can't help with such foolish things" :D
2016-01-12T05:24:58Z mordocai: Yeah,  you are bad and you should feel bad
2016-01-12T05:25:03Z mordocai: :P
2016-01-12T05:25:52Z loke: How do you even do generic functions in C++
2016-01-12T05:25:53Z loke: ?
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2016-01-12T05:27:08Z nyef: loke: With or without redefinition semantics?
2016-01-12T05:27:19Z nyef: Also, with or without EQL-specializers?
2016-01-12T05:28:38Z loke: I don't know. I was just curious :-)
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2016-01-12T05:28:55Z loke: Apparently drmeister has _something_ or he wouldn't ask, right?
2016-01-12T05:29:13Z nyef: There's a spectrum of techniques, from simply virtual methods to VisitorPattern to InterpreterPattern.
2016-01-12T05:29:37Z nyef: Well, in this case, it was more a question of "what's the semantics of this construct?" than anything else.
2016-01-12T05:29:52Z nyef: And it was in terms of a normal function, not a generic.
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2016-01-12T05:46:19Z drmeister: nyef: I just send a /msg to you - did that get through?
2016-01-12T05:47:05Z nyef: Ah, it did, but I was focussed on something else, and I have so many tabs open on IRC that it's easy to miss. Looking there now.
2016-01-12T05:47:29Z drmeister: irccloud has a couple of options and I randomly hit one or the other and I'm never sure which is the right one.
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2016-01-12T06:58:40Z lokien_: how is cl compared to clojure? in terms of productivity and performance
2016-01-12T06:59:06Z beach: lokien_: That is a very strange question.
2016-01-12T06:59:18Z beach: lokien_: First of all, we don't know how to measure productivity.
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2016-01-12T06:59:39Z lokien_: beach: I want your subjective opinions
2016-01-12T06:59:41Z beach: lokien_: Second, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so you won't get an unbiased answer.
2016-01-12T06:59:49Z lokien_: yeah, I know that
2016-01-12T06:59:56Z beach: lokien_: Third, performance is not a language question, but an implementation question.
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2016-01-12T07:01:42Z lokien_: beach: I think pretty much the same algorithm written in ruby would be slower than the same algorithm written in c
2016-01-12T07:01:43Z ecraven: beach: doesn't language design at least play a bit into performance?
2016-01-12T07:02:29Z beach: lokien_: That's because you confuse language and implementation.  I can imagine an implementation of C that is slower than the slowest implementation of Ruby.
2016-01-12T07:02:52Z flip214: lokien_: there are ruby compilers, and C interpreters.
2016-01-12T07:03:12Z lokien_: beach: so.. compare implementation of cl to clojure?
2016-01-12T07:03:27Z beach: ecraven: Sure.  Some languages make it very hard to generate good code.
2016-01-12T07:03:48Z flip214: lokien_: clojure and lisp are approximately equal in terms of abstraction, so they can get similar compiler optimizations.
2016-01-12T07:04:04Z flip214: clojure perhaps even more, because it has some guarantees about non-mutability (like FORTRAN had)
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2016-01-12T07:04:43Z lokien_: flip214: what about biased and subjective productivity in cl?
2016-01-12T07:05:39Z Bike: there are so many, many variables you could measure "productivity" as a function of, what's the point on focusing on this one
2016-01-12T07:05:54Z flip214: lokien_: while I've toyed a bit in CL (and it feels good, especially with swank), I can't offer a comparison with clojure.
2016-01-12T07:06:31Z lokien_: I find writing in cl hard, while writing clojure is pretty simple amd easy, I want to know what I'm missing
2016-01-12T07:06:35Z Bike: it's not even a matter of biased estimates, it's leaving so many things undefined and argh
2016-01-12T07:06:44Z lokien_: s/amd/and
2016-01-12T07:06:52Z flip214: lokien_: IMO, having enough experience to find out what data structures are needed makes much more difference to "productivity" than the language.
2016-01-12T07:07:24Z flip214: so if you're happy with clojure, stay around ... I might have questions in the future ;)
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2016-01-12T07:08:47Z lokien_: oh, well, I thought you guys would be better with advertising. I'll stay with clojure then
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2016-01-12T07:09:56Z beach: lokien_: #lisp participants prefer to be honest and informative.
2016-01-12T07:10:08Z beach: lokien_: Perhaps that's not the case in other channels?
2016-01-12T07:10:24Z lokien_: beach: I didn't get much information from you, to be honest
2016-01-12T07:10:42Z flip214: lokien_: oh, if it's advertising you sought.... CL has a bigger heap of books!
2016-01-12T07:10:45Z lokien_: I have a feeling you assume that I'm stupid or something
2016-01-12T07:10:47Z beach: lokien_: Me personally?  That's normal.  Your question is off topic.
2016-01-12T07:10:48Z H4ns: lokien_: maybe you want to stick to discussing common lisp rather than your feelings.
2016-01-12T07:11:17Z lokien_: I wanted to, H4ns
2016-01-12T07:11:23Z flip214: lokien_: does clojure have only hygienic macros? don't know OTTOMH
2016-01-12T07:11:25Z H4ns: lokien_: you can still do it.
2016-01-12T07:11:35Z H4ns: flip214: no.  but that is off-topic.
2016-01-12T07:11:49Z lokien_: so what is on topic?
2016-01-12T07:11:50Z flip214: well, if it doesn't, that's a plus for CL - IMO ;)
2016-01-12T07:11:59Z H4ns: flip214: it does.
2016-01-12T07:12:04Z H4ns: lokien_: common lisp.
2016-01-12T07:12:12Z beach: lokien_: Common Lisp, implementations of it, applications, libraries, etc.
2016-01-12T07:12:55Z flip214: lokien_: quicklisp might be an advantage for CL, c.t. clojure.
2016-01-12T07:13:04Z flip214: with all the available libraries...
2016-01-12T07:13:20Z beach: lokien_: There are also a fair number of newcomers here on a regular basis, so if you want information about Common Lisp, then just ask.
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2016-01-12T07:14:58Z lokien_: I wanted you to clarify some things about cl. but now I won't disturb you, have fun with your perfect crystalline pyramids
2016-01-12T07:15:12Z lokien_: thanks flip214 though, have a good day
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2016-01-12T07:15:19Z H4ns: lokien_: yeah.  have a nice day.
2016-01-12T07:15:21Z flip214: lokien_: if you have specific questions, just go ahead...
2016-01-12T07:15:38Z flip214: but I can't tell you "X is better than Y" if I don't know about Y, sorry about that.
2016-01-12T07:15:46Z flip214: I guess #java or #php is better in that, though ;)
2016-01-12T07:15:56Z beach: flip214: lokien_ left.
2016-01-12T07:15:57Z H4ns: flip214: they're just trolling, leave them alone.
2016-01-12T07:16:30Z flip214: H4ns: didn't sound like that to me.... but now she's gone anyway.
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2016-01-12T07:17:49Z beach agrees with H4ns' analysis.
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2016-01-12T08:29:05Z PuercoPop: flip214: they were probably trolling unknowingly at best.
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2016-01-12T08:49:10Z moore33: Common Lisp in Hacker News! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10879557
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2016-01-12T08:56:35Z synchromesh: Ooh, I like the #'() in "(keep-if #'(and integerp evenp) '(1 2 3 2.0 4))".
2016-01-12T08:58:46Z moore33: Anyone know much about CL21? Does it require any active changes to implementations? Hierarchical packages, maybe?
2016-01-12T08:58:47Z prxq: progress! at last! when do we get the curly braces?
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2016-01-12T09:03:30Z Cymew: ...and semicolons?
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2016-01-12T09:04:45Z PuercoPop: moore33: it is implemented in CL, so no changes needed. Just load the code to use
2016-01-12T09:05:09Z prxq: oh cool, edi has a book out! https://www.apress.com/9781484211779
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2016-01-12T09:11:20Z shka: sadly it is rather expensive
2016-01-12T09:13:07Z Cymew: Well. Kind of expected price, I'd say.
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2016-01-12T09:13:28Z Cymew: "Generating graphical user interfaces for desktop operating systems or mobile devices." - i wonder what that part is about.
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2016-01-12T09:17:16Z splittist: Cymew: JQuery and Ajax; Ltk; Java; CAPI; MOCL
2016-01-12T09:18:03Z loke: I prefer Lofn
2016-01-12T09:19:36Z splittist: loke: you would (:
2016-01-12T09:19:45Z loke: Of course :-)
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2016-01-12T09:20:10Z loke: It's possible that I have the most efficient termplate engine in existence though :-)
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2016-01-12T09:25:00Z shka: does mocl support threads?
2016-01-12T09:26:05Z shka: btw, any idea how mocl folks are doing?
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2016-01-12T09:26:18Z shka: i'm wonder if there is any market for that
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2016-01-12T09:27:51Z moore33: I wouldn't mind reading about ECL on Android. As I've said many times here, Maxima for Android blows me away.
2016-01-12T09:30:06Z splittist: One potential benefit of Edi's presentation as a series of problem statements and worked examples is that alternative solutions can be presented while picking up all his context. loke could provide his lofn version of Recipe 20-1, for example. (Perhaps not the best example.)
2016-01-12T09:31:23Z loke: moore33: wow. I didn't know about it
2016-01-12T09:31:42Z loke: moore33: I wonder whar maths renderer they use. I have a need for one for the potato client for andorid.
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2016-01-12T09:32:05Z moore33: loke: MathJAX, I think... that mean anything to you? :)
2016-01-12T09:32:21Z loke: Hmm, that suggests they are rendering to a WebView?
2016-01-12T09:32:30Z loke: I'm not using WebView, so that's not useful.
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2016-01-12T09:51:20Z Cymew: splittist: You've read it?
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2016-01-12T09:52:21Z splittist: Cymew: I'm reading it. And enjoying doing so.
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2016-01-12T09:54:46Z splittist: Cymew: I think it will be an essential book for any lisp shop. It's the next obvious book to read after PCL.
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2016-01-12T10:09:53Z Cymew: Sounds good.
2016-01-12T10:10:53Z Cymew: I had planned on getting it, but had forgotten. So thanks for the reminder!
2016-01-12T10:10:56Z djh: That the 'recipies' book? I've been impressed with it so far
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2016-01-12T10:16:03Z loke: I'm still waiting for my paper copy of the book.
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2016-01-12T10:25:56Z PuercoPop: loke: btw I saw you created a repo for a cl implementation of transit. Have you seen this one? https://github.com/gtod/transit-cl
2016-01-12T10:26:10Z loke: PuercoPop: No. I have not seen that.
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2016-01-12T10:27:49Z loke: PuercoPop: Who made it?
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2016-01-12T10:29:05Z PuercoPop: gtod, of whom I know nothing except that he occasionally contributes to orthocreedence's libraries.
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2016-01-12T10:30:31Z loke: The implementation looks decent enough by first look.
2016-01-12T10:30:45Z loke: I will try to use it before continuing on my own project.
2016-01-12T10:34:34Z loke: The main difference seems to be that this code is based on yason, while mine uses json-streams.
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2016-01-12T10:44:45Z otwieracz: what about foo.service.enable = bar.service.enable?
2016-01-12T10:44:50Z otwieracz: oops, not here
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2016-01-12T13:08:16Z HannahThePanda: Hi all; I have a CLOS question. Is it possible to define a method so that it works on instances of a class and all instances of subclasses of that class?
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2016-01-12T13:08:58Z jackdaniel: it works like that by default, doesn't it?
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2016-01-12T13:11:58Z jackdaniel: unless you specialize the method on the subclass, the more general method will be invoked
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2016-01-12T13:12:34Z HannahThePanda: jackdaniel: right, I messed up my test case with a type
2016-01-12T13:12:49Z HannahThePanda: *typo. Sorry!
2016-01-12T13:12:54Z jackdaniel: np :)
2016-01-12T13:13:03Z moore33: That was about to get interesting :)
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2016-01-12T13:45:45Z flip214: I can't be certain that a &rest list is freshly allocated, right? Before doing destructive operations I need to copy it, I guess.
2016-01-12T13:46:33Z jackdaniel: flip214: yes
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2016-01-12T13:48:52Z flip214: is there some way to find out whether I need to copy?
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2016-01-12T13:52:18Z scymtym_: flip214: in SBCL, you could SB-INTROSPECT:ALLOCATION-INFORMATION, but if you planning to do this as an optimization, that probably doesn't help
2016-01-12T13:53:16Z scymtym_: sorry, misread the question. that doesn't tell you whether the list is freshly allocated or not.
2016-01-12T13:53:22Z jackdaniel: flip214: why not always copy that list? do you predict very long lists?
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2016-01-12T13:54:44Z flip214: jackdaniel: well, I can't say.... the question just shot through my mind.
2016-01-12T13:55:33Z jackdaniel: I think it's unspecified by a spec, so you can't rely on that, though it's probably allocated on each call
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2016-01-12T13:57:03Z jackdaniel: "a rest parameter is permitted, but not required, to share structure with the last argument to apply."
2016-01-12T13:57:07Z jackdaniel: clhs 3.4.1.3
2016-01-12T13:57:07Z specbot: A specifier for a rest parameter: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dac.htm
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2016-01-12T13:58:19Z flip214: jackdaniel: I'm afraid that it'll break for (apply function '(1 2 3 4))
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2016-01-12T13:59:25Z jackdaniel: I think that if you modify destructively function arguments then it's a must to copy them as  a good practice
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2016-01-12T14:00:25Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by "it'll break" ? it's not required to share a structure. I'd say - it may break
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2016-01-12T14:09:24Z flip214: I tried to say "It'll break *at some time*"
2016-01-12T14:09:31Z jackdaniel: right :)
2016-01-12T14:10:21Z flip214: jackdaniel: well, the function could get a backtrace, and if it's not being called by apply it should have a fresh copy, right? ;)
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2016-01-12T14:12:09Z jackdaniel: yes, given the fact that function may call itself then rest list has to be distinct
2016-01-12T14:12:33Z jackdaniel: either way, I'd just copy this list and doesn't won't bother ;)
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2016-01-12T14:27:59Z dlowe: under some conditions, the rest list is stack-allocated
2016-01-12T14:28:30Z dlowe: all sorts of things a compiler can do. Just always copy.
2016-01-12T14:29:13Z dlowe: Honestly, I pretty much *never* destructively modify a list. We have lots of memory and cpu these days and it's just not worth the risk.
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2016-01-12T14:29:52Z jackdaniel building utilities tries to provide both versions: xxx and nxxx
2016-01-12T14:29:54Z dlowe: The exception is when I'm modifying individual conses for things like queues.
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2016-01-12T14:30:14Z d00der: So I'm trying to load a system I've created as per the docs, I have a subdirectory in ~/common-lisp trying to load with asdf 3.1.5 (asdf:load-system :system) but it's not finding it..
2016-01-12T14:30:50Z d00der: The manual says that should be enough as far as I can tell. I can load it if I push the dir onto the central registry, but I'd rather not do that
2016-01-12T14:31:34Z flip214: dlowe: sort...
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2016-01-12T14:32:07Z dlowe: flip214: sort with a copy.
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2016-01-12T16:25:34Z optikalmouse: has anyone taken a look at CL-21 yet? is it worthwhile to look into at all?
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2016-01-12T16:27:25Z mordocai: optikalmouse: I looked at it. I think it is a nice idea that won't go anywhere, personally.
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2016-01-12T16:28:01Z optikalmouse: mordocai: from my quick glance it looked like a lisp-in-a-box kinda starter package, does it add more than just packaging up some niceties together?
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2016-01-12T16:28:39Z mordocai: optikalmouse: It's trying to become basically a new language
2016-01-12T16:28:52Z jackdaniel: it heavily uses readtable, so it may be incompatible with some of the CL
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2016-01-12T16:29:25Z Xach: optikalmouse: my impression is that it's too different for people who like CL and not different enough for new people.
2016-01-12T16:29:45Z Xach: if you're going to depart from CL, it seems like new people like clojure a lot.
2016-01-12T16:29:46Z optikalmouse: a solution in search of a problem?
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2016-01-12T16:31:27Z jackdaniel: optikalmouse: on the other hand it would be useful to look at the rutils library
2016-01-12T16:31:45Z jackdaniel: it looks very promising, but doesn't pretend to be a new language
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2016-01-12T16:44:27Z splittist is almost tempted to break out iterate for this gnarly loop.
2016-01-12T16:44:34Z splittist: But perhaps I should just think harder.
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2016-01-12T16:47:11Z contrapunctus: or use recursion *ducks*
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2016-01-12T16:51:13Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: serapeum ?
2016-01-12T16:51:17Z akkad: or thwim harder
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2016-01-12T17:09:46Z contrapunctus: Why didn't Strandh's CL-reference take off? Sounds like a worthwhile project...(I'd contribute if I had the required know-how.)
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2016-01-12T17:10:12Z Xach: I don't think I've ever heard of it. Where can I read more?
2016-01-12T17:10:21Z contrapunctus: Xach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CL-reference
2016-01-12T17:10:28Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: beach is only one person with limited resources – it lacks volunteers I suppose
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2016-01-12T17:10:58Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: ah, that's what I meant - why didn't it get traction with the community.
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2016-01-12T17:11:16Z splittist: contrapunctus: what community?
2016-01-12T17:11:22Z contrapunctus: splittist: :(
2016-01-12T17:11:30Z jackdaniel: because people tend to think, that they don't have required know-how
2016-01-12T17:11:33Z Xach: contrapunctus: I don't think many know about it.
2016-01-12T17:11:36Z jackdaniel: know-how is something you gather while contributing
2016-01-12T17:11:43Z jackdaniel: not something you have in-front ;)
2016-01-12T17:11:59Z contrapunctus: Xach: I see, thanks
2016-01-12T17:12:23Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: I suppose that's one way to go about it.
2016-01-12T17:12:26Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: you may talk with eudoxia regarding the spec tex sources, I believe he worked on them
2016-01-12T17:12:40Z jackdaniel: as a starting point that is
2016-01-12T17:12:41Z Xach: contrapunctus: I like to follow new things in the CL world, but I don't remember any announcement or publicity around the start of the project. maybe he is waiting for more progress to push for awareness?
2016-01-12T17:13:06Z contrapunctus: Xach: ah, yeah, I didn't think of that.
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2016-01-12T17:36:00Z moore33: Anyone using CommonDoc Codex? Yay / nay?
2016-01-12T17:37:34Z contrapunctus didn't know of it, now going through website.
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2016-01-12T17:55:20Z mordocai: moore33: I was planning on trying it out but hadn't yet
2016-01-12T17:56:44Z Xach: moore33: I want to try it
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2016-01-12T18:04:17Z moore33: The document string markup seems fairly well done.
2016-01-12T18:04:23Z moore33: From looking at the docs.
2016-01-12T18:05:58Z mordocai: Yeah, well if I remember correctly it actually is modular so you can swap out the markup too
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2016-01-12T18:18:46Z jasom: mordocai: it uses pandocl, which currently only supports vertex and scriba
2016-01-12T18:21:30Z jasom: but you can define new formats just with one generic function
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2016-01-12T18:22:30Z mordocai: jasom: Yeah I'm pretty excited to try it.
2016-01-12T18:22:35Z mordocai: Just haven't had a good use case yet
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2016-01-12T18:33:18Z nzambe: not knowledgeable but how is CoommonDoc differ from Cluffer beach is working on?
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2016-01-12T18:34:29Z mordocai: nzambe: Different things entirely I think.
2016-01-12T18:34:40Z mordocai: nzambe: Cluffer is a text editor buffer, CommonDoc is for generating docs from a project
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2016-01-12T18:53:43Z sebboh: Question: http://paste.lisp.org/+6JDF See what I'm trying to do there?  In some languages, two functions that take different arguments are two different functions--the compiler knows which one you want based on what args you provide. However, this isn't working in CL...  Should I just rename one function? Or is there some other common strategy?
2016-01-12T18:54:24Z White_Flame: there's also (defun draw-rectangle (x1 y1 &optional x2 y2) ...)
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2016-01-12T18:54:42Z White_Flame: renaming it is common
2016-01-12T18:54:56Z sebboh: and then I'd have to (if (listp...) ...) or something, if I did the &optional route, eh?
2016-01-12T18:55:03Z White_Flame: there's also multimethods, but they really prefer the count of arguments to be the same across variations
2016-01-12T18:55:21Z White_Flame: &optional can give you additional flags to tell you if the last 2 args were included or not
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2016-01-12T18:55:40Z sebboh: white_flame, ahh, I see.
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2016-01-12T18:56:26Z White_Flame: when you refer to other languages, typically you're referring to very statically typed, statically compiled languages
2016-01-12T18:56:48Z White_Flame: Lisp doesn't really work that way :)
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2016-01-12T18:57:25Z sebboh: I'm not complaining, just exploring.  This is of course not the first time I've realized that lisp is not java. ;)
2016-01-12T18:57:39Z sebboh: Thank goodness!
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2016-01-12T18:58:09Z PuercoPop: btw asdf needs man power if anyone is interesed (gmane is down here so I can't link the discussion)
2016-01-12T18:58:26Z White_Flame: (defun draw-rectangle (x1 y1 &optional x2 (y2 nil is-y2-provided)) ...)
2016-01-12T18:58:44Z White_Flame: (param-name default-value flag-set-if-parameter-was-given)
2016-01-12T18:59:27Z White_Flame: oh, another option is to have a macro, which looks at the number of parameters at compile time and outputs a call to one of the two functions
2016-01-12T18:59:34Z mordocai: PuercoPop: Anything a relative noob can help with? I'd be glad to spend some time on it
2016-01-12T18:59:49Z White_Flame: but that's not usually done, as it's not very runtime flexible with APPLY and such
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2016-01-12T19:00:54Z sebboh: White_Flame: would you tell me more about runtime flexibility?  I wrote my first macro the other day. Worked great.
2016-01-12T19:01:09Z White_Flame: (apply #'macro-name param-list) won't work
2016-01-12T19:01:38Z White_Flame: but (eval `(macro-name ,@param-list)) will force it to work
2016-01-12T19:01:50Z sebboh: But (apply #'defun-name param-list) is a thing, eh?
2016-01-12T19:01:56Z White_Flame: yes
2016-01-12T19:02:08Z White_Flame: apply directly calls a function
2016-01-12T19:02:27Z White_Flame: whereas eval does the whole toplevel thing of macroexpansion
2016-01-12T19:02:47Z sebboh: gotcha.  That's fine.  Thank you for these lessons...  FYI I'm not going to rename a defun.. I'm going to delete one.  (I'm only calling these guys in a couple places!)
2016-01-12T19:02:55Z White_Flame: and macros are not functions (technical arguments following..)
2016-01-12T19:03:27Z sebboh: White_Flame: I'm doing this interactively so I don't think anything is compiled.
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2016-01-12T19:03:52Z White_Flame: with multimethods, you could have (defmethod draw-rect ((r rect)) ..) and (defmethod draw-rect ((p pair-of-rects)) ...) if you have those types defined
2016-01-12T19:04:07Z White_Flame: s/pair-of-rects/pair-of-points/
2016-01-12T19:04:41Z White_Flame: sebboh: if you're using SBCL or some other CL implementations, everything goes down to machine code, even interactively
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2016-01-12T19:05:00Z PuercoPop: mordocai: idk in detail, but it seems to me that having access to different CL implementation in different OSes could be of help
2016-01-12T19:05:26Z mordocai: PuercoPop: I probably won't be too much help then unfortunately. I only have access to linux.
2016-01-12T19:05:32Z White_Flame: sebboh: (defun my-len (x) (length x)) (disassemble #'my-len)
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2016-01-12T19:15:53Z sebboh: Holy crap, White_Flame, that's cool!
2016-01-12T19:16:14Z White_Flame: :)
2016-01-12T19:16:20Z sebboh: White_Flame: now, where's the (assemble ...) ? ;)
2016-01-12T19:16:33Z White_Flame: that's platform-specific, but you can do it
2016-01-12T19:16:41Z White_Flame: whereas disassemble is standard
2016-01-12T19:16:44Z attila_lendvai: sebboh: it's called cl:compile... ;)
2016-01-12T19:16:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: sebboh: If you're using emacs, C-c M-d
2016-01-12T19:17:18Z White_Flame: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/
2016-01-12T19:17:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: If you want to disassemble with a hotkey.
2016-01-12T19:18:01Z sebboh: slow down folks.  Speaking of hot keys, is there some M-x slime-eval-string-in-repl?
2016-01-12T19:18:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: C-c C-c
2016-01-12T19:18:15Z sebboh: not last-expression... string.  It should prompt me.
2016-01-12T19:18:35Z White_Flame: that's kind of what the REPL is
2016-01-12T19:18:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: return :^)
2016-01-12T19:18:49Z sebboh: Sorry, I'm not in the repl, I'm in a .lisp file buffer.
2016-01-12T19:19:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: C-c C-c is what I use to run a form from a .lisp buffer
2016-01-12T19:19:29Z sebboh: Previously I used a keyboard macro to switch to the repl buffer, type the function call I wanted, hit enter, and switch back to my editor...
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2016-01-12T19:19:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: C-z, enter, C-o ?
2016-01-12T19:20:04Z Xach: the repl is not a good place to write defuns, most of the time.
2016-01-12T19:20:09Z sebboh: C-z has been disabled here.  What does it do on your end?
2016-01-12T19:20:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: It jumps me to the repl.
2016-01-12T19:20:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: But only if I'm in a lisp buffer.
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2016-01-12T19:20:31Z sebboh: Petit_Dejeuner: I see.
2016-01-12T19:21:28Z sebboh: I just want to call (wipe-frame-buffer) in my repl whenever I hit f5.  I previously had this on a keyboard macro but then I redefined it so now I'm thinking of something longer lasting...
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2016-01-12T19:22:04Z White_Flame: M-Sh-, C-c C-o ?
2016-01-12T19:22:15Z White_Flame: (jump to top of buffer, clear output)
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2016-01-12T19:23:16Z sebboh: ... what? I retract my question. This isn't important.  (Originally I was asking for the name of an existing interactive function--it must not exist.)
2016-01-12T19:23:36Z White_Flame: C-c C-o clears the REPL buffer below the cursor
2016-01-12T19:23:37Z sebboh: s/interactive function/command/
2016-01-12T19:24:01Z sebboh: And C-x f sets the fill column. :)
2016-01-12T19:24:23Z White_Flame: slime-repl-clear-buffer might be what you want
2016-01-12T19:24:27Z White_Flame: ump to repl
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2016-01-12T19:24:40Z White_Flame: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/REPL-commands.html#REPL-commands
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2016-01-12T19:30:31Z sebboh: M-x slime-interactive-eval or C-c :
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2016-01-12T19:31:06Z White_Flame: well, there you go
2016-01-12T19:31:30Z sebboh: :)
2016-01-12T19:31:36Z sebboh: Thanks for the docs link. ;)
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2016-01-12T19:31:49Z White_Flame: 'tis but a google away :-P
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2016-01-12T19:39:20Z BIGBOOMBA: Quick question (22.1.2 of CLtL2): what is an "extended" token? How is it different from a token?
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2016-01-12T19:55:38Z dwchandler: PuercoPop: wrt asdf, did you mean https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/asdf-devel/2016-January/005102.html ?
2016-01-12T19:55:55Z dwchandler: That's a bit different than "man power"
2016-01-12T19:58:42Z mordocai: dwchandler: The follow up from fare makes it sound less likely that there will be any lingering issues
2016-01-12T19:59:41Z dwchandler: We'll see, I guess
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2016-01-12T20:01:31Z mordocai: It does sound like they need developers (besides a potential new maintainer).
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2016-01-12T20:05:35Z PuercoPop: dwchandler: yes, I meant that thread.
2016-01-12T20:06:03Z White_Flame: BIGBOOMBA: I think an extended token is one that could turn into a symbol or number, as opposed to just punctuation
2016-01-12T20:07:00Z shka: The ideal solution would of course be for young blood to take over
2016-01-12T20:07:01Z shka: from the two of us, but I don't see that happening. Common Lisp is not
2016-01-12T20:07:03Z shka: very welcoming nor attractive to new blood.
2016-01-12T20:07:11Z shka: :(
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2016-01-12T20:08:07Z dlowe: it was when I started :D
2016-01-12T20:08:18Z dlowe: and it seems a lot more welcoming now
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2016-01-12T20:09:15Z akkad: yk
2016-01-12T20:11:51Z attila_lendvai: I always felt that approaching CL is an uphill battle -- although one that is worth fighting. from some attitudes you can meet online, to the default values of stuff like various slime settings... and it does indeed seem to be more welcoming these days than it was a decade ago.
2016-01-12T20:13:06Z attila_lendvai: which has a lot to do with people like fare and Xach developing crucial infrastructure
2016-01-12T20:13:08Z dlowe: I think one problem is that *every* online community kind of sucks, and it's rare to get face-to-face support with less popular things like CL.
2016-01-12T20:13:45Z White_Flame: also, as seen earlier the "discussion CL relative to other languages is off-topic!" is a real turn-off for people who find this place and don't know about #clnoobs, ##lisp, etc
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2016-01-12T20:14:28Z White_Flame: though the flipside is flooding this place with language religion
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2016-01-12T20:15:39Z dlowe: Take it to #lispcult
2016-01-12T20:16:12Z PuercoPop: There is a little bump in the road at the start. Lucky for me I tried Clojure first so when I tried CL I had already wrestled with emacs
2016-01-12T20:16:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: But nobody's there. :(
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2016-01-12T20:16:35Z PuercoPop: I can't imagine using sbcl with rlwrap being a good experience to a beginner
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2016-01-12T20:18:31Z dlowe: you can always use it like perl/python/ruby/whathaveyou
2016-01-12T20:18:40Z dlowe: sbcl -load "mycoolprogram.lisp"
2016-01-12T20:18:53Z dlowe: you're missing out on a lot of good stuff, of course
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2016-01-12T20:19:16Z dlowe: but there's no need to learn *all* the good stuff right away
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2016-01-12T20:24:47Z dwchandler: I use sbcl + rlwrap, edit in vim. I know enough to know at least part of what I'm missing, but I'm not ready to go back to emacs at this point. But my point being, I agree with dlowe about not having to swallow the whole elephant at once. A bite at a time works, too.
2016-01-12T20:25:27Z dlowe: dwchandler: there used to be a slime interface for vim. I don't know what its state is now, though
2016-01-12T20:25:31Z PuercoPop: dwchandler: there are a at least a couple of lispers that happily use slimev
2016-01-12T20:26:09Z attila_lendvai: as I remember it took us around a week of active struggle to get going with emacs+slime+sbcl. and IIRC I was already playing with it on and off prior to that
2016-01-12T20:26:42Z dwchandler: I've been considering spacemacs
2016-01-12T20:28:27Z PuercoPop: I've been considering spacemacs as well as I liked vim modal editing a lot but don't feel reworking my configuration
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2016-01-12T20:30:22Z dwchandler: the vim solutions for running SLIME all look like horrible hacks to me. Vim doesn't have what's needed to do something like run SLIME, so anything is bound to be terrible
2016-01-12T20:30:52Z dwchandler: if people are happy with that, then cool.
2016-01-12T20:31:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: vim isn't a sin, it's a pennance
2016-01-12T20:32:45Z akkad: vi is ok
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2016-01-12T20:40:40Z jlarocco_: is there a good library for decoding bitfields?
2016-01-12T20:41:34Z jlarocco_: I have a 32-bit unsigned number, and know that bits 0-3 represent something, 4-8 something else, 9-21 something, etc.
2016-01-12T20:42:18Z Xach: jlarocco_: binary-types is the old-school one for that.
2016-01-12T20:42:26Z Xach: jlarocco_: in a pinch, you can use ldb for that sort of thing, though.
2016-01-12T20:42:46Z jlarocco_: awesome, thank you
2016-01-12T20:43:05Z Xach: e.g. (ldb (byte 3 0) number) => something, (ldb (byte 4 4) number) => something-else, etc
2016-01-12T20:43:56Z White_Flame: (byte <count of bits> <start position>)
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2016-01-12T20:48:21Z jlarocco_: (binary-types:define-bitfield ...) is exactly what I was hoping for
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2016-01-12T20:52:09Z pjb: sebboh: one thing you can do in CL that you cannot do in other languages, is to define a compiler macro, that will check the calls, and be able to generate specialy optimized code in each case. So you don't have to incur the overhead of &optional and the associated run-time parsing for "static" calls.
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2016-01-12T21:01:37Z pjb: sebboh: http://paste.lisp.org/display/305045
2016-01-12T21:01:53Z pjb: sebboh: notice the functions called in the disassembly.
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2016-01-12T21:13:11Z patrickwonders: Anyone else having trouble with Quicklisp getting partial content downloading right now?
2016-01-12T21:13:35Z Xach: patrickwonders: interesting. what are the symptoms?
2016-01-12T21:14:26Z patrickwonders: QL-HTTP::END-OF-DATA error thrown.
2016-01-12T21:14:49Z Xach: patrickwonders: for all downloads or for a particular one?
2016-01-12T21:14:52Z patrickwonders: When I wget, it takes several retries to get whole thing.
2016-01-12T21:15:16Z Xach: patrickwonders: what file?
2016-01-12T21:15:20Z Xach: or URL?
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2016-01-12T21:15:34Z Xach: What is the failure mode of wget?
2016-01-12T21:15:38Z patrickwonders: Tried to get fare-csv and failed so tried update-all-dists and failed on alexandria.
2016-01-12T21:16:31Z patrickwonders: Hmm. Works for me at work... Must be my home machine or network.
2016-01-12T21:16:41Z Xach: hmm, yeah, works for me locally too
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2016-01-12T21:17:27Z patrickwonders: Alright... Thanks...
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2016-01-12T22:18:39Z spupuser: sup Quadrescence
2016-01-12T22:18:41Z spupuser: its SailorR
2016-01-12T22:19:06Z spupuser: reading SICP and lead me here
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2016-01-12T22:36:48Z Mitzelflick: lisp would seem an idea web serving language, as html is just nested lists of strings, but has anyone like built a cluster app in lisp that can replace clsuters fo appservers and use abstraction to make it all simple?
2016-01-12T22:36:57Z Mitzelflick: like mass virtual hosts based on lists of info
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2016-01-12T22:41:06Z spupuser: how do you write a general recursive function in lisp as an iterative process in lisp?
2016-01-12T22:41:35Z spupuser: like say the function was (define f <some recursive thingey>  )
2016-01-12T22:42:18Z Bike: SICP does compiler stuff, doesn't it? You rewrite as jumps and stack operations.
2016-01-12T22:42:29Z White_Flame: isn't DEFINE scheme?  there's different tools in Common Lisp
2016-01-12T22:42:59Z spupuser: Bike, idk im only on page 58
2016-01-12T22:43:17Z moore33: SICP also talks about turning recursion into iteration at a higher level than pseudo-machine instructions.
2016-01-12T22:43:20Z Bike: keep reading, then :)
2016-01-12T22:43:24Z White_Flame: but in general, the body of the recursive function becomes the body of the loop.  Make loop tests as fit
2016-01-12T22:43:38Z moore33: ... early in the book :)
2016-01-12T22:43:43Z White_Flame: however, recursive functions can be more flexible than basic looping operations tend to support
2016-01-12T22:43:50Z Bike: moore33: general recursion or just tail?
2016-01-12T22:44:20Z moore33: Bike: general recursion -> tail recursion
2016-01-12T22:44:32Z moore33: That is the transformation from one to the other.
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2016-01-12T22:44:48Z moore33: Bear in mind it's been almost 30 years since I've read the book :)
2016-01-12T22:45:18Z Bike: well, so you introduce a stack for the non-tail-calls, and then do tail calls which we all know are just jumps. so there you go
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2016-01-12T22:45:35Z moore33: Pretty much.
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2016-01-12T22:48:35Z spupuser: if only there were a general recursive language
2016-01-12T22:49:04Z Bike: there are many
2016-01-12T22:49:07Z White_Flame: meaning what?
2016-01-12T22:49:30Z spupuser: like ...any mathematically valid recursive function
2016-01-12T22:49:35Z spupuser: and you can write it as -is
2016-01-12T22:49:39Z spupuser: and itll execute
2016-01-12T22:49:56Z spupuser: as long as its well-defined
2016-01-12T22:50:10Z Bike: writing a lambda calculus interpreter is a piece of cake. and that's just notation concerns, really.
2016-01-12T22:50:22Z White_Flame: I'd need to see an example of what you think is not possible
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2016-01-12T22:51:21Z spupuser: like solving functional equations
2016-01-12T22:51:25Z spupuser: defined recursively such as
2016-01-12T22:51:45Z spupuser: f ( x y= f(x) +f(y)
2016-01-12T22:51:48Z spupuser: f(xy)
2016-01-12T22:51:53Z spupuser: given some initial conditions
2016-01-12T22:52:02Z Bike: functional equations are different from recursion.
2016-01-12T22:52:12Z spupuser: how so
2016-01-12T22:52:17Z White_Flame: man nmap
2016-01-12T22:53:11Z Bike: they don't usually have one solution, for a start.
2016-01-12T22:53:15Z Bike: read through http://www.cofault.com/2010/01/hunt-for-addictive-monster.html, it's a trip
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2016-01-12T22:54:26Z White_Flame: and computer algebra systems deal with actual equations (and are availabile in Lisp as well)
2016-01-12T22:54:26Z Bike: they're more like constraints than they are definitions.
2016-01-12T22:54:59Z White_Flame: yeah, f(x*y) = f(x) + f(y) doesn't seem like a statement you wish to execute
2016-01-12T22:55:13Z White_Flame: but a declaration within some greater context to mathematically solve
2016-01-12T22:55:34Z spupuser: a nonlinear addictive function ....lol
2016-01-12T22:55:36Z White_Flame: ie, it informs a solver, it does not solve anything on its own
2016-01-12T22:55:53Z White_Flame: what is xy supposed to mean in f(xy) = f(x) + f(y) then?
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2016-01-12T22:56:21Z Bike: spupuser was referring to the article i linked, which is about solutions to f(x+y) = f(x) + f(y) that aren't in the form f(x) = k*x.
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2016-01-12T22:56:48Z White_Flame: yeah, I assumed it was related, but he had f(xy) instead
2016-01-12T22:56:52Z spupuser: Bike, did he prove it even exists?
2016-01-12T22:57:00Z spupuser: or that it satisfies every bad property of functions
2016-01-12T22:57:07Z Bike: sure. read the article.
2016-01-12T22:57:34Z spupuser: o I see the continue ...nice
2016-01-12T22:57:40Z Bike: White_Flame: they're both functional equations, and i have links for one but not the other, you see
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2016-01-12T22:58:32Z Bike: but even f(xy) = f(x) + f(y) is solved by logarithm in any base. probably a few other things too.
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2016-01-12T22:59:48Z Bike: you could give a few extra conditions, like f(e) = 1, that might make it unique, but then you're using a solver like you said.
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2016-01-12T23:02:37Z White_Flame: right, the question is if a "general recursion" programming language would be related to something like that
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2016-01-12T23:55:50Z Mitzelflick: gosh so much software is just painful
2016-01-12T23:55:53Z Mitzelflick: paaainful bs
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2016-01-13T00:28:27Z msmith: hi all, anyone know how to recursively load all lisp files with asdf?
2016-01-13T00:29:07Z jasom: msmith: you mean asdf:load-system
2016-01-13T00:29:35Z Posterdati: is define-test test-log-form-and-value wrong at the sixth assert-equal? (assert-equal 3 (length *log-with-value*))
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2016-01-13T00:30:33Z msmith: jasom: I mean in a system def doing something like :components  (:tree  "mydir/**/*.lisp"
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2016-01-13T00:33:47Z jasom: msmith: I don't think you can do that, but if you use package-inferred-system, it's not too hard to get something close
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2016-01-13T00:34:41Z jasom: msmith: alternatively you might be able to do some magic with a #. reader macro
2016-01-13T00:35:25Z msmith: jasom: ok, I'll look into the package-inferred-system approach
2016-01-13T00:38:05Z pillton: msmith: Is your system really able to be loaded in an arbitrary order?
2016-01-13T00:39:46Z jasom: FWIW, asdf *does* set the *default-pathname-defaults* to the root of the system when loading the .asd file, so calculating everything in a #. isn't as hard as it might sound
2016-01-13T00:39:47Z msmith: pillton: I have a core system and a path where modules are  kept.  the core system must be loaded first, but the modules need not be.  At least at this time
2016-01-13T00:39:54Z jasom: on the other hand don't do that :P
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2016-01-13T04:12:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-01-13T04:28:13Z solrize: is there a simple way in sbcl to make a big unboxed array of bytes?
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2016-01-13T04:29:00Z beach: (make-array ... :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) or something like that.
2016-01-13T04:29:22Z solrize: aha  thanks
2016-01-13T04:30:25Z beach: Anytime.
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2016-01-13T04:43:55Z doesthiswork: does anyone know what a "displacing macro" would be?
2016-01-13T04:44:38Z beach: Where did you see that?
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2016-01-13T04:44:55Z Zhivago: A macro to produce a displaced array?
2016-01-13T04:45:40Z doesthiswork: one of the xj13 writeups had a note from mr. moon that they were removed from the language
2016-01-13T04:46:17Z Bike: Could you link it?
2016-01-13T04:46:17Z doesthiswork: and there are various hints from google that it means something different than the sum of the words
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2016-01-13T04:46:43Z Zhivago: https://hanshuebner.github.io/lmman/macros.xml#displacing-macro-section ?
2016-01-13T04:47:33Z Bike: ...well, i'm glad we lost that.
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2016-01-13T04:47:53Z doesthiswork: http://clhs.lisp.se/Issues/iss301_w.htm
2016-01-13T04:48:21Z pillton: Weird.
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2016-01-13T04:48:29Z Bike: yeah, matches zhivago's link. Bletcherous indeed.
2016-01-13T04:48:36Z pillton: Yet another deviation from the evaluation model.
2016-01-13T04:48:49Z doesthiswork: oh youch
2016-01-13T04:48:50Z Zhivago: Lisp is a collection of expedient hacks, after all. :)
2016-01-13T04:49:20Z pillton: doesthiswork: Thanks for pointing that out.
2016-01-13T04:49:52Z doesthiswork: I was without internet for a few days so I read the hyperspec for fun
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2016-01-13T04:51:15Z pillton: Oh wait. "This is consistent with the checking-out of displacing macros from Common Lisp."
2016-01-13T04:51:22Z pillton: chucking*
2016-01-13T04:52:07Z dorkrawk: this might be a weird request, but I'm looking for some feedback on a Lisp related joke in a comic I'm writing...
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2016-01-13T04:52:32Z doesthiswork: leths hear it
2016-01-13T04:52:34Z brucem: +-
2016-01-13T04:53:06Z pillton gets out the drum and cymbol.
2016-01-13T04:53:27Z dorkrawk: for anybody familiar with the show Seinfeld, does this joke work: (Jerry and Kramer sitting at a computer) Kramer: "You know Jerry, this would be a lot easier if you were using Lisp..." Jerry: (clenching his fist) "Von Neumann!"
2016-01-13T04:53:46Z doesthiswork: ?
2016-01-13T04:54:31Z doesthiswork: are you makeing a reference to the Von Neumann bottleneck?
2016-01-13T04:54:36Z dorkrawk: Jerry had a bit where he used to yell "Newman!" (referring to Kramer's friend) all the time
2016-01-13T04:55:00Z solrize: whoosh
2016-01-13T04:55:04Z White_Flame: I don't think there's enough of a Lisp -> Neumann connection to make it a Lisp joke
2016-01-13T04:55:14Z doesthiswork: ah
2016-01-13T04:55:19Z solrize: could he yell "mccarthy"?
2016-01-13T04:55:19Z dorkrawk: yea... that's what I was worried about
2016-01-13T04:55:44Z solrize: or "newlisp" ?
2016-01-13T04:56:20Z pillton: or "you sound like my father".
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2016-01-13T04:56:47Z doesthiswork: well you don't really need lisp for this joke
2016-01-13T04:57:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: dorkrawk: Might work better if Kramer tells Jerry to use some lang that is good at paralellism.
2016-01-13T04:57:47Z dorkrawk: hmm... yea... something more directly about the architecture might work better
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2016-01-13T04:58:32Z White_Flame: also, isn't Neumann pronounced "Noy - muhn", and not "New muhn" as the seinfeld character?
2016-01-13T04:58:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: close enough
2016-01-13T04:59:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: maybe drop the 'von'
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2016-01-13T04:59:20Z dorkrawk: ha, you might be right. I've been pronouncing it "new-man" in my head for a long time and it's been a while since I've been in a CS class
2016-01-13T04:59:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: time to say it the cooler way
2016-01-13T04:59:50Z solrize: noy-monn
2016-01-13T05:00:43Z solrize: "you know jerry this would run faster if you used self-modifying code"
2016-01-13T05:05:09Z dorkrawk: yea, that or a Von Neumann bottleneck reference would be good... though perhaps this joke might be a bit too obscure to really land, haha
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2016-01-13T05:06:02Z dorkrawk: thanks for your help! I'll share the comic if I get to a script I like
2016-01-13T05:06:22Z doesthiswork: that one works well
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2016-01-13T05:09:24Z resttime: Whoa, lispworks reworked their website.
2016-01-13T05:09:33Z resttime: THey seem to support mobile now too.
2016-01-13T05:10:26Z resttime: I wonder how it compares to mocl.
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2016-01-13T05:42:08Z akkad: for relatively simple regexp is cl-ppcre:split the right way to go for speed?
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2016-01-13T06:24:24Z beach: tcr: Tobias?
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2016-01-13T06:26:28Z jasom: akkad: for pretty much anything that isn't fixed-position splitting, cl-ppcre will likely be at least competitive on speed.  It's pretty darn fast
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2016-01-13T06:30:54Z jasom: resttime: IIRC lispworks mobile versus mocl: the upside is that it actually works; downside is that it doesn't support iOS
2016-01-13T06:31:38Z jasom: oh, they have an iOS one too... *investigates further*
2016-01-13T06:32:19Z jasom: ah, "iOS runtimes cannot use cl:compile"
2016-01-13T06:32:34Z jasom: makes sense since iOS enforces W^X
2016-01-13T06:33:42Z flip214: I had a (handler-case sb-int:stream-decoding-error) that did (n
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2016-01-13T06:34:20Z flip214: (invoke-restart 'sb-int:force-end-of-file). but that does'nt work with sbcl 1.3.1 any more, because the restart is gone.
2016-01-13T06:35:19Z flip214: what's the name of the restart now?
2016-01-13T06:37:50Z flip214: ah, seems to be in sb-kernel.
2016-01-13T06:38:13Z jasom: hmm, the mobile support could possibly get me to spring for this, *if* it were a fixed price rather than an annual license
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2016-01-13T06:42:44Z akkad: mocl seems to be very slow in new updates and fixes
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2016-01-13T07:30:03Z flip214: hmmm, with sbcl 1.3.1 and current ql swank I get "(:TYPE :TRANSLATOR) is not a defined info type." in (SB-C::META-INFO :TYPE :TRANSLATOR T)
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2016-01-13T08:37:03Z scymtym_: flip214: stassats worked on that, at least improving the error report on the SBCL side. not sure whether the swank side is fixed as well. maybe ask in #sbcl.
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2016-01-13T08:43:23Z flip214: scymtym_: thanks
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2016-01-13T09:19:59Z solrize: is there a simple way to set the optimization flags in sbcl without putting with-compilation-unit in another file?  and is :optimize 'speed  supposed to give the fastest (i.e. unsafe) settings?
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2016-01-13T09:22:06Z |3b|: SPEED shouldn't make things that much less safe, SAFETY controls that (and you usually don't need to turn safety off in sbcl to get good speed)
2016-01-13T09:22:38Z flip214: solrize: (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 3)))  in .sbclrc?
2016-01-13T09:23:17Z solrize: thanks i'll try that but i think i want to set to 0, it's for a benchmark
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2016-01-13T09:24:00Z solrize: i was hoping to put something into the lisp file instead of .sbclrc but will try both ways.  i didn't know about declaim
2016-01-13T09:24:18Z solrize: actually i better quit for the night and mess with it more tomorrow... thanks / gnite
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2016-01-13T09:26:14Z z0d: solrize: are you sure, you need them?
2016-01-13T09:26:45Z solrize: well right now my lisp code is running about 20x slower than c++
2016-01-13T09:27:23Z z0d: I don't think that playing with optimization settings will buy you much
2016-01-13T09:27:38Z otwieracz: I think your code is the problem.
2016-01-13T09:27:41Z solrize: you might be right, i haven't done this type of thing very much
2016-01-13T09:28:03Z z0d: solrize: first, check your code and pinpoint what is slow
2016-01-13T09:28:18Z otwieracz: Take a look at slime-profiler
2016-01-13T09:28:24Z solrize: but i think safety 0 also tells the compiler to believe the type declarations, this should be a lot better with unboxed fixnums and chars
2016-01-13T09:28:24Z otwieracz: It will generate runtime statistics.
2016-01-13T09:28:28Z solrize: will look at profiler
2016-01-13T09:28:42Z z0d: solrize: don't microoptimize
2016-01-13T09:29:08Z solrize: well sbcl is about 5x faster than python with my current code
2016-01-13T09:29:33Z flip214: solrize: paste?
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2016-01-13T09:30:27Z solrize: http://lpaste.net/1539861108372799488
2016-01-13T09:31:09Z ralt: solrize: if you want it for a system, you can use asdf's around-compile
2016-01-13T09:31:33Z solrize: not sure what that is.  it's just a throwaway benchmark, comparing different compilers/languages
2016-01-13T09:31:43Z flip214: solrize: (random) in sbcl is quite a different thing than in python, and even more to C.
2016-01-13T09:31:50Z ralt: e.g. https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/test/test-around-compile.script#L19-L21
2016-01-13T09:31:57Z solrize: ah thanks
2016-01-13T09:32:13Z flip214: in C I believe you get some last*prime mod prime, while in sbcl it's some 2^10000 generator IIRC
2016-01-13T09:32:19Z solrize: random seems to call mersenne twister prng which is reasonable.  i'm mostly concerned with the timing of the second loop though
2016-01-13T09:32:22Z solrize: t2-t1
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2016-01-13T09:32:57Z solrize: c++ has several rng's to choose from and i tried a couple
2016-01-13T09:33:08Z flip214: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Random-Number-Generation
2016-01-13T09:33:17Z z0d: and note that the Mersenne twister is not really fast. you can find better algorithms
2016-01-13T09:33:18Z flip214: This particular sbcl version uses the popular MT19937 prng algorithm, and its internal state only effectively contains about 19937 bits of information. http://www.math.sci.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/~m-mat/MT/emt.html
2016-01-13T09:33:35Z solrize: yeah i'm not really worried about the rng speed.... i mostly want to optimize the counting loop at line 16
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2016-01-13T09:34:37Z splittist: solrize: you can promise the compiler that i, the contents of the arrays, and the result of the calculation are fixnums.
2016-01-13T09:35:27Z solrize: hmm i think i did that with the arrays with :element-type ?
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2016-01-13T09:36:32Z solrize: how do i do it with i which is bound by the loop macro?
2016-01-13T09:36:48Z solrize: loop for (the fixnum i)   ?
2016-01-13T09:36:56Z |3b|: loop for i fixnum
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2016-01-13T09:38:03Z |3b|: or for general types, loop for i of-type some-type
2016-01-13T09:38:18Z |3b|: but you probably don't need that
2016-01-13T09:38:20Z solrize: oh cool thanks
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2016-01-13T09:38:41Z solrize: anyway i'll mess with this more tomorrow, i'm really sleepy now it's almost 2am here
2016-01-13T09:38:44Z solrize: gnite!
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2016-01-13T11:49:55Z splittist decides using short-circuiting logical macros is just confusing himself
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2016-01-13T12:08:02Z nydel: if i do (and (foo-p) (bar-p)) and foo-p evaluates down to nil, is bar-p evaluated?
2016-01-13T12:08:14Z djh: no
2016-01-13T12:08:21Z nydel: that's what i thought, thanks
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2016-01-13T16:17:11Z luis: my copy of Common Lisp Recipes got damaged in route and wasn't delivered at all. :-/
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2016-01-13T16:18:36Z mordocai: luis: :(. Are they resending?
2016-01-13T16:20:45Z splittist: strict rationing. no replacements!
2016-01-13T16:21:19Z optikalmouse: the dystopia of lisp-world :(
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2016-01-13T16:21:58Z splittist: I'm sure it'll be garbage collected and recycled.
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2016-01-13T16:23:55Z PuercoPop: Mine is in route for at least 2 more weeks!
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2016-01-13T16:25:44Z optikalmouse: this is about perl, but it's still nice and how I feel whenever I write anything lispy: http://blogs.perl.org/users/zoffix_znet/2016/01/why-in-the-world-would-anyone-use-perl-6.html
2016-01-13T16:27:30Z mordocai: optikalmouse: Too bad perl is inferior :P
2016-01-13T16:28:09Z djh: Technically, it's about Perl6, which is different to Perl :P
2016-01-13T16:29:13Z mordocai: Meh, it got some new features but still the same ol' perl to me
2016-01-13T16:29:18Z mordocai: And I don't actually dislike it
2016-01-13T16:29:23Z mordocai: much
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2016-01-13T16:34:57Z optikalmouse: what I really like about perl and CL for that matter is they both start with coders are actually doing
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2016-01-13T16:35:12Z optikalmouse: :o
2016-01-13T16:35:17Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/bf68aa2f1968e24ce877 anyway I can speed that up?
2016-01-13T16:35:37Z PuercoPop: mordocai: It seems to have a different 'turtle' underneath with extensible grammars
2016-01-13T16:36:39Z mordocai: akkad: I'd profile it
2016-01-13T16:37:06Z mordocai: akkad: You may be just waiting on disk IO, I think reading in larger than one line chunks should help with that but profiling will tell you where to look probably
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2016-01-13T16:37:29Z Xach: akkad: you want a string of whatever is before the first occurrence of "postgresql: "?
2016-01-13T16:37:55Z djh: Perl6 is basically a brand-new language that was inspired by Perl.. I've yet to decide if I like it enough to try learning it properly
2016-01-13T16:38:02Z Xach: akkad: it's hard to make good suggestions when the semantics aren't too precisely explained, sorry
2016-01-13T16:38:28Z Xach: operating directly on things, and using names like "doit", are generally not illuminating
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2016-01-13T16:39:03Z akkad: gotcha. thanks
2016-01-13T16:39:03Z splittist: WRITE, SEARCH and SUBSEQ might suffice.
2016-01-13T16:39:29Z akkad: typically I'm doing the equivalent of awk -F"some string" '{print $2}' < file
2016-01-13T16:39:54Z jackdaniel: (defun work! (arg1 arg2 &key key-arg3) …)
2016-01-13T16:40:39Z Xach: akkad: using ppcre:split like that is likely to generate a lot of garbage if you only want one thing.
2016-01-13T16:40:51Z Xach: akkad: so one way to get faster is to be a bit more targeted.
2016-01-13T16:41:01Z akkad: ok. should I look at split-sequence?
2016-01-13T16:41:12Z akkad: makes sense
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2016-01-13T16:41:40Z Xach: akkad: split-sequence has the same issue with garbage.
2016-01-13T16:42:13Z akkad: I'd be better off removing unwanted portion vs tokenizing the whole thing
2016-01-13T16:42:53Z Xach: akkad: another way to think of the problem is "Return the subsequence of the input bounded by the nth and nth+1 occurrences of the delimiter string"
2016-01-13T16:43:28Z Xach: that still involves finding the occurrences of the delimiter, but doesn't involve extracting anything until you find the position of the nth+1 (and you don't have to keep searching after that)
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2016-01-13T16:44:22Z Xach: with splitting, you have to create subsequences and search for delimiters until the end.
2016-01-13T16:44:35Z Xach: of course, it's simple, and easy to understand, so if it's not a bottleneck, no reason to get more complex.
2016-01-13T16:45:45Z akkad: :D
2016-01-13T16:45:47Z akkad: thanks.
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2016-01-13T17:02:50Z contrapunctus: Sorry to bring up this subject again, but...has anyone considered/is anyone considering writing applications for any of the extant (and for whatever degree of 'complete') Lisp OS projects?
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2016-01-13T17:17:38Z PuercoPop: contrapunctus: you mean like more apps for Mezzano?
2016-01-13T17:17:46Z contrapunctus: PuercoPop: yeah
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2016-01-13T17:19:15Z eudoxia: probably not
2016-01-13T17:19:18Z PuercoPop: not really apps but I had been reading the compiler code. A friend of mine was trying to fix a bug in the ethernet driver iirc
2016-01-13T17:19:29Z eudoxia: i've been meaning to look at mezzano's graphics code source
2016-01-13T17:20:02Z PuercoPop: and nyef contributed some improvements as well.
2016-01-13T17:21:35Z contrapunctus: I guess I meant to ask - would it be considered practically useful to write applications for it?
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2016-01-13T17:22:07Z contrapunctus: (I've not yet used it - mean to, soon.)
2016-01-13T17:22:16Z eudoxia: you're probably not going to be deploying your web app to a Mezzano cluster on AWS any time soon
2016-01-13T17:22:25Z contrapunctus: lol
2016-01-13T17:22:29Z eudoxia: your metric function for 'practical' might vary
2016-01-13T17:22:30Z contrapunctus: no, for personal use
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2016-01-13T17:23:04Z eudoxia: for experimenting with an OS small enough that you can hold it all in your head, i'd say yeah
2016-01-13T17:23:55Z jackdaniel: hrm, if all libs CL app implement mezzano backend, then all applications may profit
2016-01-13T17:24:20Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: 'all libs CL app'?
2016-01-13T17:24:51Z jackdaniel: lets say you write photo viewer in CL which uses McCLIM
2016-01-13T17:25:06Z jackdaniel: if McCLIM has mezzano backend, then it would work on mezzano
2016-01-13T17:25:27Z jackdaniel: if McCLIM has X backend, then it would work also on unix with X
2016-01-13T17:25:39Z eudoxia: a lot of things like SQL databases won't work unless you have a CL SQL DB that runs on Mezzano
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2016-01-13T17:31:36Z sebboh: pjb: hey thank you!
2016-01-13T17:31:44Z sebboh: re: http://paste.lisp.org/display/305045
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2016-01-13T17:40:21Z sebboh: Question for anyone: in that paste I just linked to, on lines 67-71 (enable line numbers with checkbox at bottom of page)... I see that the arguments are being... Pushed onto some stack or register?  Is the place the args are being pushed a piece of hardware?
2016-01-13T17:41:51Z jackdaniel: why are you studying assembly? O_o
2016-01-13T17:42:01Z jackdaniel: (curious)
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2016-01-13T17:42:27Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-01-13T17:42:30Z sebboh: jackdaniel: I'm not. pjb put that paste together for me to demonstrate compile-time macros.
2016-01-13T17:42:41Z eudoxia: good evening beach
2016-01-13T17:43:07Z jackdaniel: good evening
2016-01-13T17:43:17Z beach: contrapunctus: Just to make sure, I hope you are not confusing Mezzano and what I describe here: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html right?
2016-01-13T17:43:25Z sebboh: my question is just curiosity.  I had no idea that my defuns were ending up as machine code. I am more familiar with interpreters and bytecode VMs.
2016-01-13T17:43:33Z sebboh: (But I guess I repeat myself!)
2016-01-13T17:44:01Z jasom: sebboh: read up on x86 assembly; in this case it's being pushed onto the C stack which is represented by the register %rsp
2016-01-13T17:44:12Z contrapunctus: beach: I meant any extant Lisp OSes. I was pointed to your writing by this channel, btw, really interesting read.
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2016-01-13T17:44:52Z jasom: sebboh: so pushq FOO will subtract 8 from %rsp and put the quadword (64-bit value) FOO in the location in memory pointed to be the new value of %rsp
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2016-01-13T17:45:51Z beach: contrapunctus: Thanks.  As far as I can tell the objectives are quite different, though.
2016-01-13T17:46:13Z sebboh: jasom, the C stack is a datastructure inside the kernel?  And the (physical) register %rsp points to it, ie, it tracks the "top" or "end" of said stack.
2016-01-13T17:46:24Z beach: contrapunctus: But to answer your questions [reading the logs] everything I write is ultimately aimed for the system I describe on those pages.
2016-01-13T17:46:36Z jasom: sebboh: the kernel is not at all involved; it's just memory
2016-01-13T17:47:02Z beach: contrapunctus: SICL, for instance, is meant to provide the basis in the form of a Common Lisp system with first-class global environments.
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2016-01-13T17:47:36Z sebboh: jasom, the kernel is not involved?  Then why don't I set %rsp to the memory space of some other process?
2016-01-13T17:47:51Z jasom: sebboh: because of virtual memory
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2016-01-13T17:48:08Z jasom: sebboh: all addresses accessible to a process are virtual, not physical addresses
2016-01-13T17:48:44Z sebboh: jasom, ok, I have heard that. I figured the kernel handles these virtual addresses...
2016-01-13T17:49:04Z jasom: sebboh: the kernel is typically responsible for setting up the hardware that manages them
2016-01-13T17:49:14Z jasom: sebboh: but once it's setup the kernel need not be involved
2016-01-13T17:49:26Z beach: contrapunctus: And for applications, this accounting system: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Compta is using the CLIM II interface manager.  The entire application is 400 lines of code, half of which is GUI.
2016-01-13T17:50:02Z contrapunctus: beach: hm...those sort of sound like Scheme environments IIUC. Existing CL implementations don't have them?
2016-01-13T17:50:45Z beach: Common Lisp does not have first-class global environments, no.  And I don't think Scheme does either.  I might be wrong of course.
2016-01-13T17:51:38Z beach: contrapunctus: Here is the paper describing first-class global environments: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf
2016-01-13T17:51:48Z beach: contrapunctus: Does it look like Scheme has something like that?
2016-01-13T17:51:49Z jasom: lisp doesn't have first-class lexical environments for that matter either...
2016-01-13T17:51:50Z sebboh: jasom, one last question: what do you call that hardware, or what do you call the .. opcodes? that you'd use to interact with it?
2016-01-13T17:51:58Z beach: jasom: Right.
2016-01-13T17:52:01Z jasom: sebboh: typically the MMU
2016-01-13T17:52:08Z beach: jasom: Well, sort of right.
2016-01-13T17:52:25Z beach: jasom: There is such an object, but no operations are defined on it. :)
2016-01-13T17:52:36Z jasom: beach: I'd call that second class :)
2016-01-13T17:52:51Z sebboh: jasom, oh, I've heard of that, but I thought its job was limited to translating the physical layout of DRAM chips to a single large logical block.
2016-01-13T17:52:58Z beach: jasom: I can agree with that. :)
2016-01-13T17:53:32Z jasom: sebboh: not quite right
2016-01-13T17:53:37Z contrapunctus: beach: oh, I see. Thanks.
2016-01-13T17:53:59Z jasom: sebboh: it's better to think of it as translating virtual addresses (a single large logical block) to bus addresses (a different single large logical block)
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2016-01-13T17:54:09Z contrapunctus: (I'm a bit new to all three, programming, Scheme, and CL, and thus easily confused)
2016-01-13T17:54:17Z jasom: sebboh: the memory controller (or dram contrller sometimes) is what translates a set of logical addresses to the pysical dram stuff
2016-01-13T17:54:19Z beach: contrapunctus: Dinner is imminent here, but I'll be happy to discuss this stuff with you some other time.
2016-01-13T17:54:35Z beach: contrapunctus: Or you can send me email if you like.
2016-01-13T17:54:48Z jasom: sebboh: and note that there is more than just dram on the system bus typically; for example PCI gets some of the system bus space typically
2016-01-13T17:54:49Z beach: I tend to be here mostly early morning (UTC+1)
2016-01-13T17:54:51Z sebboh: jasom, ah, I see.  I thought the MMU was the dram controller.  Well now I know. :)
2016-01-13T17:55:20Z beach: sebboh: I recommend a book on OS technology.
2016-01-13T17:55:39Z jasom: sebboh: I'd recommend Patterson/Hennesey
2016-01-13T17:55:49Z beach: that too.
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2016-01-13T17:56:05Z sebboh: the memory bus. Sure, hardware can present pieces of itself as ranges of addresses on that bus.
2016-01-13T17:56:18Z contrapunctus: beach: cool, thanks!
2016-01-13T17:57:08Z jasom: Computer Organization and Design: The Hardware/Software Interface by Patterson and Hennessy
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2016-01-13T17:57:23Z jasom: sebboh: start there; I don't have a good OS book to recommend though
2016-01-13T17:57:34Z sebboh: re: books, noted, if I want to learn more. ;)  I generally operate several layers of abstraction away from such things.
2016-01-13T17:57:35Z beach: There aren't any in fact. :)
2016-01-13T17:57:56Z jasom: If I were a halfway decent writer, maybe I'd write one
2016-01-13T17:57:59Z beach: But Silberschatz and Galvin seems to be the norm.
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2016-01-13T17:58:24Z jasom: Is that the dinosaur one?
2016-01-13T17:58:30Z beach: jasom: We could collaborate on one.  I have started one already.
2016-01-13T17:58:57Z beach: Right, dinosaurs.
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2016-01-13T18:00:22Z jasom: beach: Unfortunately I'd have to clear anything I share about the OS I'm most familiar with, as it's proprietary, and I've read most of the source of it.
2016-01-13T18:01:01Z beach: Interesting, which one is that?
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2016-01-13T18:01:55Z beach: My planned book is not about a particular system, other than the historical description.  Instead it will be more about the purpose of the OS and how one can accomplish its purpose in different ways.
2016-01-13T18:02:20Z beach: All the OS books I have read (and that's quite a few) are just descriptions of existing technology.
2016-01-13T18:03:03Z Bike: the first paper i read on anything was a thesis about OS design. it seems theses go more hog wild speculative
2016-01-13T18:03:07Z beach: They seem to have no opinion as to whether that technology is good or bad, nor even why things are the way they are.
2016-01-13T18:03:29Z beach: OOPS, dinner.  I might be back later.
2016-01-13T18:04:33Z jasom: beach: yeah the one we used in college was "Here's how Sun, Linux, and NT did it, with the history of Unix/ just do whatever is most expedient/ VMS" behind each one
2016-01-13T18:04:49Z sebboh: Request: somebody make a cellular automata that can used (more efficently than Conway's GoL) as a general purpose CPU.  Then just run that CA on ASICs or whatever you like.
2016-01-13T18:05:10Z Bike: Why?
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2016-01-13T18:07:26Z sebboh: Cause I estimate that such a platform would have a future.  Oh, here's an additional requirement: the proposed CA must allow some execution algorithm analogous to "Hashlife".
2016-01-13T18:08:21Z Bike: Why would you want hardware that can be emulated faster on a traditional computer?
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2016-01-13T18:09:25Z Bike: also, the operations of a GoL computer are perfect for frustrating hashlife execution, exactly as you'd expect
2016-01-13T18:09:43Z zwdr: haha those k-lines
2016-01-13T18:10:51Z contrapunctus: odd, why so many?
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2016-01-13T18:12:36Z sebboh: Bike: I think it'd be cool for my personal computer to be nothing more than a vast 2d array of bits and a few simple rules.  If a word processor (or any other software) was basically a bitmap that I "physically" blit onto some range of the plane, I would greatly enjoy watching the gears spin every time I hit a key. :)  And re: GoL computers being a pathological case for hashlife, well, er, *hand waving* functional programming. :)
2016-01-13T18:14:02Z sebboh: s/2d/whatever is appropriate for the proposed CA/
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2016-01-13T18:15:25Z Bike: that's like saying "*hand waving* ATP synthase", it doesn't even make sense as a joke
2016-01-13T18:15:45Z Bike: don't get me wrong, i like distributed computer stuff, i just don't understand where hashlife comes into it
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2016-01-13T18:16:40Z Bike: plus any physically implemented CA would be at least somewhat amenable to hashlife, since there is a speed of light in real life.
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2016-01-13T18:17:15Z optikalmouse: sebboh: it's called colorforth!
2016-01-13T18:17:18Z optikalmouse: or greenforth or something.
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2016-01-13T18:18:51Z optikalmouse: sebboh: GreenArrays!
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2016-01-13T18:18:53Z optikalmouse: http://www.colorforth.com/S40.htm
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2016-01-13T18:19:02Z optikalmouse: oops wrong link: http://www.greenarraychips.com/
2016-01-13T18:19:16Z optikalmouse: "144 independent computers"
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2016-01-13T18:20:19Z sebboh: optikalmouse: cool.  Bike: I'm just a daydreamer.  You'll note that I made a request, not a CA. :)
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2016-01-13T18:22:11Z Bike: anyway, i had a professor who was trying to sell CAputers, let's see if I can dig him up again...
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2016-01-13T18:23:14Z sebboh: Neat.
2016-01-13T18:23:54Z Bike: his stupid site is broken, but here it is anyway http://www.cellmatrix.com
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2016-01-13T18:26:09Z sebboh: Bike, the old site is still up. http://www.cellmatrix.com/entryway/products/concepts/intro1.html Is this what you were looking for?
2016-01-13T18:26:22Z Bike: yeah, that's more like it.
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2016-01-13T18:28:16Z sebboh: oh there is actually source on here. There is a layout editor which claims to be able to construct arbitrary physical electrical circuits.  Which sounds spot-on, given the topic.
2016-01-13T18:28:42Z sebboh: s/source/java classes/
2016-01-13T18:29:28Z Bike: i mostly remember this guy because he told the story of breaking warranty on a VAX and programming in an instruction to do binary search. fun times
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2016-01-13T18:30:29Z sebboh: Bike thanks for the new rabbit hole to dig around in. I'm off to lunch.
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2016-01-13T18:43:59Z beach: jasom: Exactly.  I think they are pretty much all like that.  I want to write a different one.
2016-01-13T18:44:07Z beach: [otherwise there would be no point]
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2016-01-13T19:19:06Z Warlock[29A]: Hi all. Does anybody tried to create standalone application using ECL under Windows?
2016-01-13T19:19:25Z Xach notes the hex of the beast
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2016-01-13T19:20:15Z jackdaniel: Warlock[29A]: yes, but you have to have a C compiler
2016-01-13T19:20:46Z jackdaniel: Warlock[29A]: the easiest way would be to build ECL from cygwin and use gcc from it
2016-01-13T19:20:51Z Warlock[29A]: I have installed Visual Studio 2015 with C++
2016-01-13T19:20:57Z Warlock[29A]: and MinGW
2016-01-13T19:21:00Z Warlock[29A]: with gcc
2016-01-13T19:21:18Z Warlock[29A]: I trying to use this tutorial (https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/ch34s06.html). Under linux it's works good, but under windows I got error 'Cannot find the external symbol BUILD-PROGRAM in #<"C" package>.'
2016-01-13T19:21:22Z jackdaniel: then you have to "install" C compiler - bytecmp is enabled by default
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2016-01-13T19:23:21Z jackdaniel: (c:install-c-compiler)
2016-01-13T19:23:30Z jackdaniel: gcc has to be accessible in system PATH
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2016-01-13T19:23:39Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: btw do you know what is the difference between ECL and ManKai?
2016-01-13T19:24:03Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: as far as I've digged through old mailing lists (fork happened before I knew ECL)
2016-01-13T19:24:28Z jackdaniel: it was fork without a clear reason. AFAIK it has some improved (or "improved"), windows support
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2016-01-13T19:24:37Z jackdaniel: and multithreding is a must
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2016-01-13T19:24:54Z jackdaniel: (that is you can't build w/o threads), and also linux platform is semi-dropped
2016-01-13T19:25:59Z attila_lendvai: I don't hesitate much before forking, but I've never forked without a discussion. that's just uncivilized...
2016-01-13T19:26:37Z jackdaniel: the point is, that his patches would be probably accepted (what I infere from the ML)
2016-01-13T19:26:55Z jasom: ah, with commondoc now existing, I'm dusting off my rst parser; I had almost forgotten how I (ab)used backgtracking to parse tables
2016-01-13T19:27:10Z PuercoPop: the author continues to develop mkcl, but I don't know in what direction that would be incompatible with ECL
2016-01-13T19:27:20Z Warlock[29A]: jackdaniel: I ran ecl.exe and executed (c:install-c-compiler) and i got error Cannot find the external symbol INSTALL-C-COMPILER in #<"C" package>. What is means?
2016-01-13T19:27:34Z PuercoPop: have you asked him if his interested in 'merging'?
2016-01-13T19:27:56Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: from the ml I've infered, that his patches would be accepted by Jose, he just didn't bother
2016-01-13T19:28:05Z jackdaniel: and he changed all the prefixes from ecl_ to mkcl_
2016-01-13T19:28:22Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: you may ask antonv for further details, I remember I saw him on this thread of ML
2016-01-13T19:29:12Z jackdaniel: I've asked mkcl maintainer, if he doesn't mind giving me explicit license to merge back some changes if I find any (mkcl is lgplv3), he said he has to think about it and will write back soon
2016-01-13T19:29:23Z jackdaniel: that was ~6 months ago
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2016-01-13T19:29:57Z jackdaniel: Warlock[29A]: I don't have ecl VM up, could you post an issue on gitlab? I'll check this thing up soon
2016-01-13T19:30:07Z jackdaniel: gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues
2016-01-13T19:30:30Z jackdaniel: s/ecl VM/Windows VM/
2016-01-13T19:30:34Z PuercoPop:  well at least you tried!
2016-01-13T19:31:10Z jackdaniel: yes, right now I'm very interested in merging and sharing repository of portable part of ECL with CLASP – drmeister is interested but seems to be short on time
2016-01-13T19:34:16Z Warlock[29A]: jackdaniel: Ok, thanks! I will do it. Now, i try compile it from source into MinGW, as you said.
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2016-01-13T19:34:37Z jackdaniel: I've suggested cygwin ;)
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2016-01-13T19:35:04Z jackdaniel: but cygwin imposes GPL license on apps linked to it, minGW doesn't
2016-01-13T19:36:21Z pjb: sebboh: actually, often the kernel/processor impose a "stack" on one specific register (usually, a dedicated processor register), to handle interruptions.  On some processors, the kernel may set a flag to have the processor use a specific priviledged stack register for interrupts, but it's not always available.  That's the only constraint imposing a stack in userspace.
2016-01-13T19:37:28Z Warlock[29A]: jackdaniel: For first I just want to create work example :)
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2016-01-13T19:38:01Z pjb: sebboh: (in the case of unix signals, there are options to deliver them on a specific stack, or to use this processor dedicated stack register, which usually points to the current thread stack (or some random thread in multi-core processors).
2016-01-13T19:38:32Z jackdaniel: Warlock[29A]: cygwin should give you "linux-like" behavior
2016-01-13T19:38:46Z jackdaniel: while on mingw I'll have to investigate it
2016-01-13T19:39:04Z jackdaniel: you gave me a really nice idea on issue for ecl quarterly :)
2016-01-13T19:39:18Z pjb: sebboh: So if you configure linux to use a dedicated stack for signals and interrupt and leave that stack alone, the rest of your userspace process can work without using any stack.  Notice that syscalls would use that stack, but you can consider syscalls as software interrupts.
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2016-01-13T19:42:00Z Warlock[29A]: jackdaniel: Ok, i understand. I have Cygwin. I will switch on it . Thanks for help! :)
2016-01-13T19:42:59Z jackdaniel: sure. note, that working with minGW will be differt, since it maps to windows api, while cygwin provides posix api
2016-01-13T19:43:21Z jackdaniel: so this example may be not representative if you want to use mingw in the future
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2016-01-13T19:46:47Z fourier: Is where a nice pattern on how to dig inside list of list of lists ? To not to write something like let ((something ...)) (when something (let ((something2 (dig-in-something))) (when something2 ((let something3 dig-in-something2
2016-01-13T19:47:43Z jackdaniel: fourier: subst
2016-01-13T19:47:54Z jackdaniel: but it's bit tricky :)
2016-01-13T19:47:59Z Warlock[29A]: jackdaniel: i have no preference between Cygwin or MinGw. If i can compile under Cygwin, ok, i will use Cygwin.
2016-01-13T19:48:08Z jackdaniel: also you may write higher-order function maptree
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2016-01-13T19:48:18Z Bike: you could write a simple macro. i personally haven't wanted to do something like that.
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2016-01-13T19:49:41Z fourier: jackdaniel: hm :)
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2016-01-13T19:50:36Z fourier: I feel is something like xpath actually
2016-01-13T19:51:46Z dlowe: fourier: most things that take lists will return NIL and accept NIL
2016-01-13T19:52:12Z dlowe: so (car (car (car foo))) will return NIL rather than signal a condition
2016-01-13T19:53:30Z fourier: dlowe: aah good
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2016-01-13T19:55:45Z fourier: aah thanks everybody, looks like Alexandria's when-let* (or similar) will do the trick
2016-01-13T19:56:25Z jackdaniel: there's also ensure-list
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2016-01-13T20:26:02Z jasom: dlowe: nil is a list
2016-01-13T20:26:53Z dlowe: jasom: you are correct. Need any more help?
2016-01-13T20:27:25Z jasom: dlowe: no, just pointing out that all things that take lists will accept nil
2016-01-13T20:27:34Z jasom: not just most
2016-01-13T20:27:35Z dlowe: jasom: didn't I just say that?
2016-01-13T20:27:49Z dlowe: not all things that take list will both return and accept NIL
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2016-01-13T20:29:03Z jasom: dlowe: maybe I just misunderstood you
2016-01-13T20:30:05Z jasom: obviously e.g. length will accept a list but won't ever return nil; is that what you were saying?
2016-01-13T20:30:07Z dlowe: but yes, all things that take lists will accept NIL. That may not be easily apparent to a beginner, though.
2016-01-13T20:30:57Z dlowe: you know, I think I'm gonna answer newbie questions on privmsg from now on
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2016-01-13T20:35:08Z jasom: fourier: you may want to consider using a pattern matching library like optima, depending on exactly what you mean by"like xpath"
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2016-01-13T20:45:53Z sebboh: pjb, sorry, I don't understand.  But that's OK, I'm just missing some pre-reqs, and you've already recommended a book.
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2016-01-13T22:17:09Z otwieracz: Is it possible to somehow make systems depend on specific version?
2016-01-13T22:17:22Z otwieracz: (and to respect this with quicklisp?)
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2016-01-13T22:19:59Z mordocai: otwieracz: ish. http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html
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2016-01-13T22:20:38Z XachX: otwieracz: no
2016-01-13T22:21:22Z otwieracz: Looks like it's quite impossible, right?
2016-01-13T22:21:28Z otwieracz: As far as I understand.
2016-01-13T22:21:51Z mordocai: Xach would know, he wrote/maintains quicklisp :P
2016-01-13T22:22:02Z otwieracz: I totally agree.
2016-01-13T22:22:19Z otwieracz: I am just thinking by myself why this might be even impossible.
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2016-01-13T22:23:00Z otwieracz: XachX: That's because the only place to specify dependencies is system definition, where asdf knows nothing about quicklisp releases. Right?
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2016-01-13T22:24:14Z XachX: That's an obstacle, yes
2016-01-13T22:25:12Z otwieracz: Maybe we need something like Ruby's bundler.
2016-01-13T22:25:50Z otwieracz: Specifying list of Quicklisp dependencies with dist release date.
2016-01-13T22:25:56Z otwieracz: And create bundle out of it.
2016-01-13T22:26:16Z ieure: Whoa wait just hold up a sec there
2016-01-13T22:26:17Z XachX: Qlot does that.
2016-01-13T22:26:24Z otwieracz: Qlot?
2016-01-13T22:27:13Z XachX: Qlot.
2016-01-13T22:27:39Z ieure: Even people I know who like Ruby refer to it as "bungler"
2016-01-13T22:28:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: https://github.com/fukamachi/qlot
2016-01-13T22:28:04Z otwieracz: That's certainly true that everything has been already invented :)
2016-01-13T22:28:38Z otwieracz: ieure: I am not getting into technical details here. I was just talking about way of selecting specific version of dependency.
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2016-01-13T22:56:51Z jasom: Anybody else run into an issue where quasiquotation causes slime to barf when it attempts to locate the position in the source file of a warning?
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2016-01-13T23:00:31Z jasom: sbcl 1.3.0; emacs 24.5.2; slime from latest quicklisp
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2016-01-13T23:06:51Z mordocai: Saw this on /r/lisp https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/637581271/the-3l-project
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2016-01-13T23:09:23Z jasom: mordocai: the author seems confused; at one point he says it runs lisp, at another point says it runs r7rs
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2016-01-13T23:11:39Z jsgrant: jasom: A common issue in lingustical classification of Lisp, is that they will refer to Scheme as being part of the "Lisp Family of Languages" or a "Lisp-like" language.
2016-01-13T23:12:15Z mordocai: Yeah, I posted it before I finished reading it. Would probably fit more in #scheme
2016-01-13T23:12:27Z jasom: jsgrant: right, but it is very rare for someone to refer to scheme as "lisp" rather than "a lisp" or "a dialect of lisp" or "a language in the lisp family"
2016-01-13T23:13:07Z jsgrant: jasom: Ah, didn't click/read through it when I posted that; Just started looking into the source url given. :^P
2016-01-13T23:14:14Z jsgrant: 90,000 USD goal; Jebus.
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2016-01-13T23:15:29Z mordocai: Yeah, one year salary
2016-01-13T23:15:33Z mordocai: For the one guy
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2016-01-13T23:17:32Z jsgrant: Does this guy have any kind of technical backing, that would go and lead one to be able believe he would be able to accomplish such goals?
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2016-01-13T23:20:33Z mordocai: jsgrant: Not that I saw on kickstarter
2016-01-13T23:21:44Z dwchandler: jasom: in my limited experience, scheme people typically say "scheme"
2016-01-13T23:21:57Z jasom: dwchandler: right
2016-01-13T23:22:06Z jasom: jsgrant: "I do most things in CHICKEN Scheme. I've done some small projects on the bare metal in x86 and ARMv6 assembly. Professionally I've hacked on Java and Javascript across the web stack for many years."
2016-01-13T23:22:08Z dwchandler: or "racket"
2016-01-13T23:22:25Z jasom: dwchandler: well racket specifically renamed itself to indicate it wasn't scheme
2016-01-13T23:22:34Z dwchandler: I know
2016-01-13T23:22:54Z dwchandler: "free to do what we want without purist yelling at us"
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2016-01-13T23:23:17Z jsgrant: jasom: Yeah, saw that bit -- I was looking for some actual projects of scale on the low-level osdev side of things that leads me to believe they have some notable experience here.
2016-01-13T23:23:35Z jsgrant: Checking their Github + Bitbucket accounts, eh.
2016-01-13T23:23:57Z mordocai: Yeah, i'd say they probably don't have any relevant experience to show
2016-01-13T23:23:58Z jsgrant: The only public Osdev project I see is, https://github.com/ThomasHintz/hintz-os and it's practically empty.
2016-01-13T23:26:11Z jsgrant: They have http://thintz.com/projects/os-resources on their site, but yeah, pretty if not completely sparse.
2016-01-13T23:26:18Z oGMo: jsgrant: anyone who did would not post a KS like that asking for $90k
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2016-01-13T23:26:37Z oGMo: with lots of "let's make it secure! in lisp!"
2016-01-13T23:26:41Z oGMo: and no details
2016-01-13T23:27:02Z jsgrant: oGMo: Oh, Kickstarter, that took me aback for a second. Is that a common shortening?
2016-01-13T23:27:14Z oGMo: jsgrant: that i've seen
2016-01-13T23:27:16Z mordocai: jsgrant: decently common yeah
2016-01-13T23:27:57Z jasom: oGMo: I know, not even a "here's a demo booting to a stripped-down REPL on qemu"
2016-01-13T23:28:13Z jsgrant: oGMo: Yeah, thinks and/or people like that make me a bit more skeptical of "crowdfunding platforms" as a whole.
2016-01-13T23:28:30Z jsgrant: things and/or people*
2016-01-13T23:28:32Z oGMo: jsgrant: well, to be fair, like 1 person has pledged heh
2016-01-13T23:29:43Z jsgrant wishes he had enough money for "wishful thinking seeding". :^I
2016-01-13T23:30:01Z oGMo: jasom: yeah. asking for $90k to finish up a very promising basically-complete project made by a team of OS and security engineers that wanted/needed certain certs would be reasonable
2016-01-13T23:30:52Z jsgrant gives froggey 100,000 usd to work on Mezzano for a year.
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2016-01-13T23:32:47Z jsgrant has become a cranky-old-man at 23, but yeah, years of optimism tied to years of being let down I guess will do that to you. :^P
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2016-01-13T23:36:58Z jasom suddenly feels very old
2016-01-13T23:37:10Z jsgrant: I have little doubt though that someday, probably by the end of the decade -- a LispM-like Os will be bootable from real hardware.
2016-01-13T23:37:29Z jsgrant: Won't get to be that popular, likely, but it'll be an option.
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2016-01-13T23:39:01Z jsgrant: jasom: At least you probably aren't part of the Old Guard of Lisp, and are starting to get really old comparatively.
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2016-01-13T23:39:33Z jsgrant: And even if you were, you at least have gloating privileges.
2016-01-13T23:40:28Z jsgrant: jasom: Either or though, I'm kinda a weird case. I attribute Emacs saving me from Art School, at 16.
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2016-01-14T00:21:27Z jsgrant: Brb, probs.
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2016-01-14T02:41:41Z myrkraverk: Can I use LOOP WHILE and also catch the WHILE clause in a variable?
2016-01-14T02:41:56Z myrkraverk: Or do I have to use some other construct for that?
2016-01-14T02:44:45Z Bike: you can do (loop for var = [form] while var ...)
2016-01-14T02:45:12Z myrkraverk: Oh, right.
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2016-01-14T04:36:04Z emaczen: Can systems be recursively found in directories?
2016-01-14T04:36:18Z emaczen: At least by default, this doesn't seem to be the case
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2016-01-14T04:37:50Z emaczen: Or is it pretty customary to put all systems in one directory?
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2016-01-14T04:46:03Z jasom: emaczen: IIRC asdf searches one directory deep
2016-01-14T04:46:37Z Bike: can't you deepen it with :tree and stuff?
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2016-01-14T04:47:36Z jasom: I think it will also handle systems named e.g. "foo/bar" but not sure
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2016-01-14T04:48:23Z jasom: Bike: ah, you are right the docs say that :tree will recurse
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2016-01-14T04:51:57Z jasom: emaczen: see the 3 line example config at the bottom of https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Configuration-DSL.html#Configuration-DSL
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2016-01-14T04:52:20Z jasom: that will tell asdf to recursively search /home/joeluser/cl for systems
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2016-01-14T04:53:41Z jsgrant: AeroNotix: Ping.
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2016-01-14T04:54:40Z emaczen: jasom: will it start in a directory, go back to the "base-directory" and then search recursively?
2016-01-14T04:56:27Z Bike: it will search whatever folder you write in and all its subdirectories
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2016-01-14T05:00:30Z emaczen: Bike: Okay, then I will have to move some directories into one "base directory"
2016-01-14T05:00:32Z emaczen: Thanks BIke
2016-01-14T05:00:49Z Bike: you can specify multiple trees and folders and stuff
2016-01-14T05:01:16Z emaczen: Bike: I'll keep that in mind, I'm having enough trouble as it is with symbols and packages...
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2016-01-14T05:31:20Z jsgrant: AeroNotix: I'll try to reach you again later/tomorrow.
2016-01-14T05:31:25Z jsgrant: Heading to bed for now. o/
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2016-01-14T05:56:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-01-14T06:03:52Z beach: I am thinking of submitting Acclimation for inclusion in Quicklisp: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Acclimation but I need for it to install on a second system.  But I don't have a second system, only SBCL on GNU/Linux.  Can someone with a different system check that it installs, please?
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2016-01-14T06:05:57Z Bike: loads on linux ccl. anything i can do to see that it works?
2016-01-14T06:06:09Z nyef: Hello beach.
2016-01-14T06:06:21Z beach: Bike: Nah, it should be straightforward.
2016-01-14T06:06:44Z beach: Bike: The main problem would be non-ascii characters in the Vietnamese language file.
2016-01-14T06:06:47Z H4ns: "it loads, so it runs"
2016-01-14T06:06:50Z beach: Bike Thanks.
2016-01-14T06:07:28Z Zhivago: Just write it in viscii. :)
2016-01-14T06:08:06Z H4ns: beach: loads fine on osx/sbcl
2016-01-14T06:08:35Z beach: Great, thanks!
2016-01-14T06:09:33Z H4ns: beach: also loads with osx/ccl
2016-01-14T06:10:01Z beach: I think that does it then.  All the requirements for Quicklisp are fulfilled.
2016-01-14T06:10:47Z Bike: you might want to put a mention in the faq/readme of needing an appropriate locale to load the files, because people (including me) tend to get confused about that sort of thing
2016-01-14T06:11:14Z beach: Good point.  Thanks.
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2016-01-14T06:40:02Z beach: As I work on the CLX backend for McCLIM, I have suggested improvements to the CLX documentation.  Looking at the source for CLX the documentation seems to be in Texinfo format.  Where should I submit suggested improvements?  Does CLX have a maintainer?
2016-01-14T06:43:10Z jackdaniel: beach: please send it also as ecl issue – we maintain in-tree separate fork (afaik it's something with recursive/non-recursive locks). I don't know if there are any active maintainers right now
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2016-01-14T06:43:56Z beach: jackdaniel: I'll try to remember that.
2016-01-14T06:44:09Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2016-01-14T06:50:58Z nyef: Didn't some group (lisp-gardeners or something like that?) take maintenance of CLX?
2016-01-14T06:51:30Z nyef: I know I had maintainership briefly because of the GLX stuff I was doing, but that was a while ago.
2016-01-14T06:52:07Z beach: I'll investigate a bit more.  If anyone finds something out, please let me know.
2016-01-14T06:54:10Z beach: nyef: Would you be willing to be the maintainer, in case it turns out that nobody maintains it currently?
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2016-01-14T06:57:08Z nyef: Not at this time, no.
2016-01-14T06:57:34Z beach: OK, just thought I would ask.
2016-01-14T06:58:15Z nyef: I'm not taking on any new avoidable responsibilities at this time. (-:
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2016-01-14T06:59:35Z jackdaniel: beach: judging from the git address it's sharplispers and afair Xach is part of them
2016-01-14T07:00:05Z beach: jackdaniel: Thanks!  I'll just ask Xach what the story is, then.
2016-01-14T07:00:16Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx (he even did the last commit)
2016-01-14T07:00:29Z jackdaniel: and some more back :D
2016-01-14T07:00:42Z beach: Excellent!
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2016-01-14T07:02:03Z beach: Then I'll just submit a pull request to see what happens. :)
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2016-01-14T07:04:07Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2016-01-14T07:05:18Z jackdaniel still reads the press, like each morning
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2016-01-14T07:28:23Z PuercoPop: Testing CL using Travis may get easier https://github.com/lisp-travis/travis-build/pull/2
2016-01-14T07:29:07Z jackdaniel: is there any tutorial/blogpost describing how to use travis for CL?
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2016-01-14T07:30:12Z jackdaniel: answering myself: http://eudoxia.me/article/lisp-travis-coveralls/ :p
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2016-01-14T08:14:15Z flip214: when using sb-ext:run-program with :stdout :stream, I believe it's using the wrong filehandle - the child process gets SIGPIPE when writing. See http://paste.lisp.org/display/305129 for a strace excerpt.
2016-01-14T08:14:28Z flip214: that's with 1.3.1... Am I doing something wrong?
2016-01-14T08:16:45Z flip214: hmm, with :error *standard-output* I can see sbcl do the open("/dev/null") for STDIN, and then 3 pipe()s... strange.
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2016-01-14T10:35:05Z AeroNotix: is there a bot which will message someone when they come online?
2016-01-14T10:35:30Z flip214: minion: tell AeroNotix about minion
2016-01-14T10:35:30Z minion: minion: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/minion
2016-01-14T10:35:42Z flip214: minion: memo for AeroNotix: yes.
2016-01-14T10:35:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell AeroNotix when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-01-14T10:36:09Z contrapunctus: hey, AeroNotix !
2016-01-14T10:36:28Z AeroNotix: contrapunctus: hi there
2016-01-14T10:36:28Z minion: AeroNotix, memo from flip214: yes.
2016-01-14T10:36:44Z AeroNotix: minion: memo for jsgrant. Email me. Best way to ensure I read your messages
2016-01-14T10:36:44Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2016-01-14T10:36:59Z AeroNotix: flip214: does that mean it got my message or what? :)
2016-01-14T10:37:06Z AeroNotix: contrapunctus: anything I can do for you?
2016-01-14T10:37:12Z jackdaniel: AeroNotix: no, you need ":" instead of "."
2016-01-14T10:37:17Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: derp
2016-01-14T10:37:48Z contrapunctus: AeroNotix: what happened to LispKit?
2016-01-14T10:37:54Z jackdaniel: syntax:   memo for <person>: memo-content
2016-01-14T10:38:39Z AeroNotix: minion: memo for jsgrant: Email me. Best way to ensure I read your messages
2016-01-14T10:38:39Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jsgrant when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-01-14T10:38:58Z AeroNotix: contrapunctus: my life/work got a bit ridiculous and I needed to put effort into other things. I'll get back to it eventually.
2016-01-14T10:39:28Z AeroNotix: contrapunctus: I'll still help with PRs if people send them. I think the idea of LispKit is still a very valid and worthwhile project. I just don't have enough time to dedicate to making it perfect like I would want.
2016-01-14T10:40:30Z contrapunctus: AeroNotix: I understand. I hope to be good enough with CL by then, to be able to contribute.
2016-01-14T10:41:03Z AeroNotix: contrapunctus: don't let your experience hold you back, I don't mind helping people learn CL through a proper project
2016-01-14T10:41:18Z AeroNotix: I'm not an expert like some people in here, but I'm proficient
2016-01-14T10:42:30Z contrapunctus: cool, thanks
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2016-01-14T10:43:25Z contrapunctus: currently doing a small CL practice project (privately)...just arrived from Scheme land.
2016-01-14T10:43:51Z flip214: does "sb-ext:run-program :output :stream" work for anybody with sbcl 1.3.1? strace shows sbcl reading from the pipe, but the child gets SIGPIPE.
2016-01-14T10:45:27Z AeroNotix: contrapunctus: cool, glhf
2016-01-14T10:45:42Z AeroNotix: flip214: example program?
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2016-01-14T10:57:12Z scymtym_: flip214: seems to work here with 1.3.1: sb-ext::(read-line (process-output (sb-ext:run-program "echo" '("foo") :search t :output :stream))) => "foo"
2016-01-14T10:57:45Z scymtym_ could have saved another sb-ext: there
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2016-01-14T11:07:29Z Prion_: I have a dream, a dream when I could find a space cadet like keyboard to type lisp
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2016-01-14T11:08:19Z contrapunctus: Prion_: Same. There are instructions for making one's own keyboards, though. Maybe one could make one.
2016-01-14T11:08:37Z contrapunctus: (assuming there aren't specific instructions for a Space Cadet already)
2016-01-14T11:08:56Z contrapunctus: (and assuming it's not already available for sale, used or otherwise.)
2016-01-14T11:09:09Z Prion_: I find some card which you can program yourself, put the switch yourself, but it's hard to do and very costly
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2016-01-14T11:11:33Z Prion_: This: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=536
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2016-01-14T11:12:03Z Prion_: But it can't contain all the keycap of a regular space cadet
2016-01-14T11:12:18Z Prion_: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Phantom_Group_Buy
2016-01-14T11:14:16Z flip214: scymtym_: thanks a lot. can you tell me what I'm doing wrong? http://paste.lisp.org/display/305129#1
2016-01-14T11:14:30Z Prion_: this is the thread on desktop authority about recreating the space cadet, but it's old: http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/recreating-the-lisp-keyboard-t497.html
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2016-01-14T11:16:09Z contrapunctus: Prion_: TBVH the layout of the Space Cadet freaks me out. The modifiers seem extremely far away from the optimal position and the space is needlessly gigantic. The thing looks very cool, but I'd rather get an Atreus or ErgoDox to type.
2016-01-14T11:16:33Z H4ns: i have a symbolics keyboard but it is a pain to use
2016-01-14T11:16:46Z Prion_: You break my dreams :(
2016-01-14T11:16:50Z H4ns: the most annoying thing is the rubout key, which is small and sits between random other keys.
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2016-01-14T11:17:27Z H4ns: it is totally cool, but i can't understand all the praise it gets.  i think if you use it for too long, you can get yourself crippled enough to think you enjoy it :D
2016-01-14T11:17:28Z contrapunctus: maybe I'll make my Atreus/ErgoDox with a Space Cadet color scheme >_>
2016-01-14T11:18:14Z Prion_: You really can type with these keyboard/
2016-01-14T11:18:15Z Prion_: ?
2016-01-14T11:18:33Z Prion_: It looks so weird
2016-01-14T11:20:02Z contrapunctus: Prion_: note that your fingers do not move laterally, you have thumb keys, all keys are accessible without moving from basic typing position.
2016-01-14T11:20:27Z Prion_: Maybe a japaneze type keyboard, with a very little space bar would work
2016-01-14T11:20:46Z Prion_: and all the modifier key moved under the thumb
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2016-01-14T11:21:33Z contrapunctus: and contrary to the design expectations of almost all keyboards, the hands don't approach the keyboard in a parallel position, but rather diagonally.
2016-01-14T11:21:46Z contrapunctus: both Atreus and ErgoDox take that into account.
2016-01-14T11:22:25Z Prion_: What do you think of a keyboard like that: http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/recreating-the-lisp-keyboard-t497.html?
2016-01-14T11:22:33Z Prion_: (sorry wrong link)
2016-01-14T11:22:47Z Prion_: the good one: http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/filco_majestouch_minila_keyboard_89676.jpg
2016-01-14T11:23:16Z Prion_: OMG wrong link again
2016-01-14T11:23:35Z contrapunctus: Prion_: the deskthority link has a saner-looking layout btw (saner compared to the original Space Cadet, that is)
2016-01-14T11:23:39Z Prion_: This kind of layout: http://www.amazon.com/Majestouch-Tactile-Keyboard-FFKB67M-EB/dp/B00BEVVFD0
2016-01-14T11:24:10Z Prion_: WIth a little space bart
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2016-01-14T11:24:40Z contrapunctus: Prion_: Please note the indents on your F and J keys. Your index fingers are supposed to be there. Now after placing them there...is the Meta key readily accessible to the thumb from this position?
2016-01-14T11:25:15Z H4ns: this talk http://adereth.github.io/blog/2015/11/19/clojure-slash-conj-talk-on-3d-printing-keyboards/ is fun and related to keyboards
2016-01-14T11:25:55Z Prion_: contrapunctus: No, I need to move my hand from I keycap, making me type from d and not from f...
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2016-01-14T11:26:46Z Prion_: That's why I was thinking about this type of keyboard: http://www.amazon.com/PFU-Keyboard-Professional-Capacitance-non-contact/dp/B001KWJTD6/ref=sr_1_sc_1/189-3661292-6056656?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1452770697&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=Happy+Hacking+Keyboard+Professional+japaneze
2016-01-14T11:26:50Z contrapunctus: Prion_: (That's how I think about a prospective keyboard. But note that I'm hardly an authority on this stuff...this is just my own unresearched opinion.)
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2016-01-14T11:26:59Z contrapunctus: H4ns: thanks!
2016-01-14T11:27:07Z Prion_: I'm way under authority :)
2016-01-14T11:27:53Z Zhivago: The cheapest keyboard is learning how to type.
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2016-01-14T11:28:27Z moore33: Yes! Touch typing is an extremely valuable skill.
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2016-01-14T11:28:47Z Zhivago: The rest is a bit like buying those mercury filled cables for your digital sound experience.
2016-01-14T11:29:24Z contrapunctus touch types.
2016-01-14T11:29:30Z Prion_: The problem with my typing is that I type with my left hand staggered from the f keycap to the d keycap because of I use my thumb to press alt...
2016-01-14T11:29:35Z flip214: I thought they were gold plated by a virgin cat during a moonlight dinner or something?
2016-01-14T11:29:41Z contrapunctus: Prion_: exactly.
2016-01-14T11:29:44Z Zhivago: I should have said 'learning to type properly'.
2016-01-14T11:30:06Z Prion_: So maybe a keyboard with little space bar should work way better
2016-01-14T11:30:44Z splittist wishes he could think faster than he can type
2016-01-14T11:30:45Z contrapunctus: Zhivago: surely any touch typist would recognize how unergonomically most keyboards are designed?
2016-01-14T11:31:13Z Zhivago: It turns out that most ergonomic arguments are almost complete bullshit.
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2016-01-14T11:31:47Z AeroNotix: "...and here is the evidence I put forth" -- Zhivago, presumably.
2016-01-14T11:31:50Z Zhivago: Extremely so in the case of qwerty vs. dvorak vs. magical keyboard.
2016-01-14T11:31:52Z attila_lendvai: get a keyboard with an ergonomically organized layout, not one that accommodates for the hammer mechanics from a century ago... it took a week to get used to my kinesis, and it's incomparable in comfort and accuracy
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2016-01-14T11:45:30Z scymtym_: flip214: not sure what is going wrong in your case, but afaik, SBCL uses SIGPIPE for inter-thread communication, so that may not actually be indicative of a problem
2016-01-14T11:47:39Z flip214: scymtym_: the SIGPIPE is for the git process, and it gets that upon writing to STDOUT.
2016-01-14T11:47:46Z flip214: but thanks for taking a look.
2016-01-14T11:48:15Z flip214: does the snippet work for you? if it is, then my environment has to be damaged somehow ... although I couldn't guess in which way ;/
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2016-01-14T12:00:19Z scymtym_: flip214: READ-SEQUENCE reads 0 bytes because LENGTH of BUFFER is 0, changing BUFFER to have non-zero length or using READ-LINE works as expected.
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2016-01-14T12:03:35Z flip214: scymtym_: ah, thank you so much!
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2016-01-14T12:18:47Z jackdaniel: can I iterate over structure slots?
2016-01-14T12:21:44Z H4ns: jackdaniel: there is no runtime inspection for structs, if that is what you want.
2016-01-14T12:21:56Z H4ns: jackdaniel: one of the many reasons to prefer classes over structs.
2016-01-14T12:22:30Z moore33: A level of indirection solves everything.
2016-01-14T12:23:05Z H4ns: right.  of course.  just reimplement clos badly and you're all set :D
2016-01-14T12:23:36Z moore33: H4ns: No, I meant the level of indirection in CLOS objects.
2016-01-14T12:23:39Z jackdaniel: hrm, so there is no way to get underlying structure (list/vector) portably from the struct? thanks
2016-01-14T12:25:42Z H4ns: moore33: ah, sorry.
2016-01-14T12:26:59Z phadthai: not portably I think...  I remember using a defstruct wrapper, or a hack using the printer to discover the slots (the latter not really portable either)
2016-01-14T12:27:47Z phadthai: I'm not sure if the mop of some implementations can also can provide struct slots
2016-01-14T12:29:16Z phadthai: i.e. using clos:slot-definition-name and clos:class-slots
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2016-01-14T12:31:38Z jackdaniel: right, these mop functions work with structs here :) but I'll probably won't rely on this, it's one place and may  be coded manually I suppose
2016-01-14T12:31:41Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2016-01-14T12:54:54Z igam: Prion_: you could build your own SpaceCadet keyboard.  cf. google and youtube.  In the mean time, a DasKeyboard ultima with your own .xmodmap is a good
2016-01-14T12:54:58Z igam: start.
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2016-01-14T13:15:24Z Prion_: igam: Thanks you!
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2016-01-14T13:31:03Z phadthai: toolkits like qt and gtk are now starting to handle their own maps, so xmodmap and xkb might no longer be enough depending... they still work for me in urxvt though
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2016-01-14T13:38:49Z antoszka: Guys, do you know if somebody has recreated the original Lisp Lizard logo in some vector format? Last I checked (a few years ago) the vector original was lost, and only bitmap versions were floating around.
2016-01-14T13:39:03Z antoszka: If not – is the alien available as vectors?
2016-01-14T13:40:25Z jackdaniel: http://www.lisperati.com/lisplogo.svg – alien
2016-01-14T13:40:43Z jackdaniel: http://www.lisperati.com/logo.html (other svg logos)
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2016-01-14T13:42:57Z antoszka: tia, zaglądałem tam
2016-01-14T13:43:02Z antoszka: trochę te SVG są zjebane
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2016-01-14T13:43:20Z antoszka: musiałbym je otworzyć w illustratorze i zobaczyć, czy będzie lepiej.
2016-01-14T13:43:26Z antoszka: bo przeglądarka renderuje je z błędami.
2016-01-14T13:44:46Z jackdaniel: nie ten kanał ;-)
2016-01-14T13:45:36Z antoszka: Lol, sorry guys.
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2016-01-14T13:53:45Z moore33: Polish?
2016-01-14T13:54:01Z jackdaniel: moore33: yeap
2016-01-14T13:54:32Z moore33: All set for ELS.
2016-01-14T13:54:34Z jackdaniel: if anyone is interested, here's lizard svg, I plan to vectorize it with colors on weekend http://hellsgate.pl/public/drawing.svg
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2016-01-14T14:04:07Z gabriel_laddel: How would I go about compiling a single ASDF system? (asdf:perform 'asdf:compile-op (find-system "system")) compiles all of the dependencies...
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2016-01-14T14:07:11Z Xach_: gabriel_laddel: only the first time, though, right?
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2016-01-14T14:07:28Z gabriel_laddel: Xach_: nope?
2016-01-14T14:07:46Z Xach_: Hmm, don't know.
2016-01-14T14:08:03Z gabriel_laddel: I recompiled flexi-trivial-dired (clim dired) and recompiled McCLIM, breaking the CLIM current session.
2016-01-14T14:08:25Z gabriel_laddel: I guess I can just disallow anyone from reloading systems that depend on McCLIM
2016-01-14T14:08:27Z gabriel_laddel: ...
2016-01-14T14:09:57Z igam: moore33: right a precondition for registration to the European Lisp Symposium, would be to have learned the language of the hosting country during the previous year  :-)
2016-01-14T14:10:18Z moore33: igam: That would be interesting!
2016-01-14T14:11:07Z igam: That's why we should have switched to Polish in #lisp since it was announced, to get some linguistic bath :-)
2016-01-14T14:11:32Z jackdaniel: spoko, nie ma sprawy :)
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2016-01-14T14:13:16Z moore33: My hovercraft is full of eels.
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2016-01-14T14:19:20Z splittist: ITYM Mój poduszkowiec jest pełen węgorzy.
2016-01-14T14:20:09Z splittist: I hope they fill out the 'How to get there' and 'Where to stay' parts of the site.
2016-01-14T14:20:17Z jackdaniel: splittist: "And this my jet is full of fish"?
2016-01-14T14:20:17Z splittist: (the els site, that is)
2016-01-14T14:20:21Z jackdaniel: x]
2016-01-14T14:20:38Z splittist: I need to do more work. How should I say 'hovercraft' and 'eels'?
2016-01-14T14:21:10Z jackdaniel: ok, I mistranslated, poduszkowiec is hovercraft
2016-01-14T14:21:24Z jackdaniel: and eels are wegorze :)
2016-01-14T14:21:43Z jackdaniel: so "And this my hovercraft is full of eels"
2016-01-14T14:22:06Z splittist: close enough for government work
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2016-01-14T15:17:49Z pseudo-sue: hey folks. I've got a pretty trivial format string question, but can't seem to find the answer I'm looking for online.
2016-01-14T15:18:11Z moore33: shoot
2016-01-14T15:18:49Z pseudo-sue: how do I left-pad an integer with zeros, in a nonconventional base? suppose, for example, I want to zero-pad a ternary integer. it seems like I'd use "~9,'03r" (for 9 digit ternary integer)
2016-01-14T15:19:01Z pseudo-sue: but that will throw an error.
2016-01-14T15:19:57Z pseudo-sue: "Argument X is not a REAL: #\0"
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2016-01-14T15:20:36Z H4ns: pseudo-sue: (format t "~3,9,'0R" 123456) -> "20021100110"?
2016-01-14T15:20:59Z pseudo-sue: sweet! thanks.
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2016-01-14T15:21:23Z pseudo-sue: I was just mentally parsing things wrong, it seems.
2016-01-14T15:22:01Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: la la la la la la la la la la lala
2016-01-14T15:22:08Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: Solo tengo recuerdos de un pasado feliz
2016-01-14T15:22:16Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: Solo tengo añoranzas en mi mente de ti
2016-01-14T15:22:18Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: Vuelve aquí
2016-01-14T15:22:22Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: la la la la la la la
2016-01-14T15:22:30Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: he vivido unos años, algo duros sin ti
2016-01-14T15:22:37Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: Ahora quiero olvidarlos y volver a reír
2016-01-14T15:22:41Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: la la la la la la la la
2016-01-14T15:22:44Z H4ns: does someone want to help the person out?
2016-01-14T15:22:46Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: en mi vida solo quedan esperanzas
2016-01-14T15:22:54Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: en mis sueños mi ilusion siempre eres tú.
2016-01-14T15:23:01Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: Sólo vivo esperando tu regreso
2016-01-14T15:23:10Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: con tu marcha te llevaste mi corazón
2016-01-14T15:23:17Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: ¿where are you from?
2016-01-14T15:23:20Z z0d: need more ops
2016-01-14T15:23:24Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: Han pasado unos años
2016-01-14T15:23:28Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: y por fin te encontré
2016-01-14T15:23:31Z pseudo-sue: now, a slightly tricker question: anyone know of an existing function, or package, for converting to n-ary gray codes? (ternary's what I'm after in this case, in particular, but n-ary would be great to have handy in general)
2016-01-14T15:23:32Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: la sonrisa en mis labios
2016-01-14T15:23:37Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: salió a flor de piel
2016-01-14T15:23:43Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: soy feliz
2016-01-14T15:23:58Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: me he enterado en el parqué que te has casado con él.
2016-01-14T15:24:08Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: Pero quiero decirte que pasó9 tu tiempo pasío
2016-01-14T15:24:14Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: pasó tu tiempo ya pasó tu hora
2016-01-14T15:24:18Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: ya pasó tu hora
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2016-01-14T15:24:21Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: ya pasó tu hora
2016-01-14T15:24:30Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: yo con mi marillo siempre siempre siempre
2016-01-14T15:24:38Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: siempre siempre siempre siempre
2016-01-14T15:24:49Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: porque eél era él era él era él y solo él
2016-01-14T15:25:28Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: Quisiera dedicarte todo el tiempo que me queda en esta vida.
2016-01-14T15:25:33Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: olvidame tú olvidame tú
2016-01-14T15:25:37Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: yo solo soy una bebita
2016-01-14T15:25:45Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: una bebita con el mundo en mis manitas
2016-01-14T15:25:53Z oleo: ?
2016-01-14T15:25:53Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: bomba bomba bomba bom,bita
2016-01-14T15:25:57Z oleo: lol
2016-01-14T15:25:59Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: bombsabomba bombita
2016-01-14T15:26:02Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: hola hola
2016-01-14T15:26:07Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: que tal estás amiguito??
2016-01-14T15:26:18Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: ¿seremos amigos siempre siempre siempre?
2016-01-14T15:26:24Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: Nunca te dejaré hermanito
2016-01-14T15:26:30Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: siempre siempre siempre estaremos unidos
2016-01-14T15:26:35Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: Hacemo snuestro pacto de sangre
2016-01-14T15:26:38Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: dame tu dedo
2016-01-14T15:26:41Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: dame tu dedo
2016-01-14T15:26:43Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: dame tu dedo
2016-01-14T15:26:48Z Diana_Diosa_de_l: toma toma toma toma el mío
2016-01-14T15:26:51Z fe[nl]ix has set mode +b *!~ircap@*.ono.com
2016-01-14T15:26:51Z Diana_Diosa_de_l [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (Diana_Diosa_de_l)
2016-01-14T15:27:07Z oleo: gracias!
2016-01-14T15:27:10Z oleo: hahahahha
2016-01-14T15:27:18Z moore33: hasta la vista
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2016-01-14T16:19:21Z flip214: there
2016-01-14T16:19:42Z flip214: there's no (format) or (with-output-to-string :start) or something like that, right?
2016-01-14T16:20:00Z flip214: what's the easiest way to replace part of an existing string, reusing the allocated space?
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2016-01-14T16:22:46Z dlowe: flip214: REPLACE
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2016-01-14T16:23:37Z splittist: flip: if it's a 'string' with a fill-pointer, you /can/ use format
2016-01-14T16:25:10Z flip214: dlowe: thanks!
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2016-01-14T16:53:55Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2016-01-14T16:54:44Z wheelsucker: Good morning.
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