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2015-12-01T03:38:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-12-01T03:41:31Z blubjr: beach beach
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2015-12-01T03:55:19Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-12-01T04:19:10Z Oladon: Evening beach :)
2015-12-01T04:19:15Z Oladon: Nearly bedtime here...
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2015-12-01T04:23:22Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-12-01T04:24:12Z drmeister: Hey everybody
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2015-12-01T04:24:23Z blubjr: hi drmeister
2015-12-01T04:24:36Z drmeister: Hi blubjr - what's shakin?
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2015-12-01T04:28:49Z blubjr: wine..
2015-12-01T04:31:36Z beach: drmeister: I understand you finally decided it is acceptable to depend on Common Lisp for bootstrapping Clasp.
2015-12-01T04:33:19Z drmeister: Hah!   Yes, flash- made an excellent point what are people who use Clasp going to be comfortable with?  Common Lisp of course.  The C++ scraper was getting complicated (written in Python) and rather than complicate it further we decided to write it in Common Lisp.
2015-12-01T04:34:21Z drmeister: SAL9000 suggested using C++ macros to annotate the C++ code and run everything through the C++ preprocessor.   I wrote a CL program with sbcl+slime in a day that got the basics working.
2015-12-01T04:34:29Z drmeister: It was a very pleasant experience.
2015-12-01T04:34:47Z drmeister: Very life affirming - exactly what I wanted in a programming environment.
2015-12-01T04:35:18Z beach: So now I suppose you can appreciate why I insist on having the full Common Lisp language available when I implement SICL.
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2015-12-01T04:36:53Z beach: You understand that this decision of yours opens A LOT of possibilities for cleaning up the code of Clasp.  I am not saying it should be done NOW, and I am not saying YOU should do it.  Just saying that it is possible, and perhaps desirable.
2015-12-01T04:37:10Z drmeister: Sure - and if sbcl could speak to C++ I wouldn't be messing around with my own (somewhat) implementation.
2015-12-01T04:38:05Z beach: That's different, though.
2015-12-01T04:38:08Z drmeister: Well, the idea is to start by giving the ~1500 C++ functions and methods regular underscored names and making them discoverable via M-. in Slime.
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2015-12-01T04:38:46Z drmeister: That should lower the barrier to people coming on board (I hope).
2015-12-01T04:38:46Z nyef: And the main issue with SBCL speaking C++ is the exception handling, isn't it?
2015-12-01T04:39:18Z drmeister: Even I am always flailing around trying with grep trying to figure out if a function is implemented in C++ or CL.
2015-12-01T04:40:22Z beach: For example, you could run Cleavir in SBCL and compile Clasp source to bitcode files.
2015-12-01T04:40:27Z drmeister: nyef: One of them - the exception handling, the type conversions is another.  Mangled names.  I could come up with a list.
2015-12-01T04:41:16Z nyef: I have a prediction to make: The only really brutal item on that hypothetical list is the exception handling.
2015-12-01T04:41:39Z drmeister: Maybe.
2015-12-01T04:42:00Z loke: Hello drmeister
2015-12-01T04:42:02Z loke: and nyef
2015-12-01T04:42:05Z loke: and beach
2015-12-01T04:42:42Z drmeister: I say that not because I don't believe you.  It's because I don't believe you can figure  out all of the problems until one actually tries to make it work.
2015-12-01T04:43:21Z nyef: That's fair.
2015-12-01T04:43:25Z drmeister: Hi loke - I've got an Arch VM now from Shinmera and I'm trying to get it to work.  We have VMWare incompatibilities.
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2015-12-01T04:44:06Z nyef: I know that getting unwind integration working on 32-bit windows was a pain... And that's the ONLY port of SBCL where it's been done.
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2015-12-01T05:13:21Z jasom: nyef: exception-handling is a non-issue
2015-12-01T05:14:07Z jasom: nyef: have "call-c++-function" work in a try/catch that catches all exceptions
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2015-12-01T05:27:17Z drmeister: jasom: callbacks will be a stumbling block.  If lisp calls C++ functions and they call lisp functions and the lisp functions use non-local exits... boom.
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2015-12-01T05:51:19Z jasom: drmeister: that is the same in C as well, right?
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2015-12-01T05:56:16Z drmeister: I don't think so - C doesn't depend on unwinding calling destructors like C++ does.  Although any C programmer doing fancy things with setjmp/longjmp will probably complicate interoperation with sbcl.
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2015-12-01T06:03:20Z beach: What is the idiomatic way of rounding a number to a multiple of some integer?  I can think of (* n (round x n)).
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2015-12-01T06:04:36Z phoe_krk: beach: rounding by lisp standards?
2015-12-01T06:04:37Z minion: phoe_krk, memo from pjb: In a file, (make-package :my-test-package :use (list :cl)) (in-package :my-test-package)  cannot work, because make-package is a function.
2015-12-01T06:05:07Z beach: phoe_krk: I don't know what that is supposed to mean.
2015-12-01T06:05:19Z phoe_krk: (round 3/4) => 0
2015-12-01T06:05:25Z phoe_krk: (round 5/4) => 2
2015-12-01T06:05:45Z phoe_krk: A naive approach once told me they'd eval to 1.
2015-12-01T06:06:15Z beach: What makes you think (round 5/4) gives 2?
2015-12-01T06:06:59Z phoe_krk: That's what I once read in Paul Graham's ANSI CL.
2015-12-01T06:07:22Z beach: Page number please?
2015-12-01T06:08:01Z phoe_krk: https://7chan.org/pr/src/ANSI_Common_Lisp_-_Paul_Graham.pdf 162 by PDF standards.
2015-12-01T06:09:15Z jasom: drmeister: C absolutely depends on unwinding doing things like C++ does
2015-12-01T06:09:26Z phoe_krk: Wait wait.
2015-12-01T06:10:05Z jasom: drmeister: how about something simple like acquire_lock(); call_callback(); release_lock(); <-- non-local exit from callback will cause incorrect behavior most likely
2015-12-01T06:10:06Z drmeister: jasom: Where?  There is no concept of unwinding in C.
2015-12-01T06:10:15Z phoe_krk: "Instead it rounds to the nearest even digit:"
2015-12-01T06:10:22Z jasom: drmeister: which is why you can't do non-local exits from lisp callbacks in C
2015-12-01T06:10:53Z jasom: drmeister: the fact that C++ gives you a way to handle non-local exits that lisp doesn't know about makes it no less safe than C
2015-12-01T06:10:54Z drmeister: jasom: Sure - but that is the programmers problem.
2015-12-01T06:10:55Z beach: phoe_krk: That is the accepted unbiased rounding method, but that doesn't mean (round 5/4) gives 2.
2015-12-01T06:11:19Z phoe_krk: beach: it shows I'm not a native English speaker.
2015-12-01T06:11:32Z phoe_krk: for once, I thought that even *digit* == even *number*.
2015-12-01T06:11:37Z phoe_krk: Even numbers = 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, ...
2015-12-01T06:11:45Z phoe_krk: Even digits = 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ...
2015-12-01T06:11:53Z beach: phoe_krk: But it has nothing to do with my question.
2015-12-01T06:12:05Z phoe_krk: Yes, my fault.
2015-12-01T06:12:13Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: 5/4 is closer to 1 then to 2 or 0 hrm
2015-12-01T06:12:26Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-12-01T06:12:34Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2015-12-01T06:12:40Z blubjr: hi jackdaniel
2015-12-01T06:12:45Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: morning, I already solved my problem above
2015-12-01T06:12:51Z phoe_krk: now on to beach's.
2015-12-01T06:12:53Z jasom: drmeister: I agree that it would be nice to have graceful C++ stack unwinding, but the lack of it right now just makes the C++ FFI no worse than the C FFI since you can't safely do this with C FFI anyways
2015-12-01T06:13:48Z beach: phoe_krk: Never mind.  I'll use what I suggested until something better pops up.
2015-12-01T06:14:55Z jasom: integrating C++ exceptions with the lisp condition system is not something I demand from my FFI; I'm would find an FFI implementation that requires stacks be not unwound past the Lisp/C++ boundary to be an acceptable FFI
2015-12-01T06:15:07Z phoe_krk: beach: what you suggested seems to be the most obvious and probably the most proper way to do that.
2015-12-01T06:15:17Z jasom: particularly if it gets all those other things that are unrelated to non-local exits correct (e.g. types overloading, mangling...)
2015-12-01T06:15:47Z drmeister: jasom: Graceful C++ stack unwinding that works with CL stack unwinding is what Clasp does. If that's not what someone cares about - then that's fine.  As soon as they need it though - it's a huge gotcha.
2015-12-01T06:17:58Z jasom: drmeister: oh, I agree it's a great feature of clasp
2015-12-01T06:18:24Z jasom: drmeister: I'm just pointing out that it is *not* anywhere near public-enemy #1 for geting sbcl to interface with C++
2015-12-01T06:19:05Z jasom: drmeister: and it would be preferrable that the FFI save you from yourself by catching any non-local exits at the lisp/c++ boundary
2015-12-01T06:19:23Z jasom: (assumming it can't get it right like clasp does)
2015-12-01T06:20:26Z drmeister: Thanks.   I think we agree - if it's not what you need then it's not a problem.
2015-12-01T06:20:55Z drmeister: My point is that once you need it you will be stuck.
2015-12-01T06:20:58Z jasom: drmeister: I was primarily responding to nyef's comment about exception handling being the only major issue
2015-12-01T06:21:03Z jasom: drmeister: indeed
2015-12-01T06:22:01Z drmeister: We all start writing code by writing a few lines and then adding and adding code.  We draw on more and more features of the languages we write in.   I always reach a point where I bump into the limitations the languages impose on me.
2015-12-01T06:22:15Z drmeister: Until I discovered Common Lisp I thought that was natural.
2015-12-01T06:23:46Z jasom: now that I think of it, you might be able to get it right in sbcl with the proper combination of unwind-protect and try/catch; you can tell if there is any C++ above you on the stack by just binding a dynamic variable in your FFI call-C++ form; if there isn't one and you catch an exception then you need to signal the lisp runtime in some way; if there isn't then you just unwind the stack via a lisp throw/catch
2015-12-01T06:23:47Z jasom: to get back to C++ and then raise the exception there
2015-12-01T06:27:13Z jasom: You would need some sort of autogenerated wrappers for each C++ function you want to call from lisp in order to wrap the call with a try/catch and then package the total result up as a tuple of value, exception-object
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2015-12-01T06:27:34Z drmeister: It's pretty late here - I better get to bed because I teach in the morning.
2015-12-01T06:27:41Z jasom: right, you're east-coast
2015-12-01T06:27:45Z jasom: good night
2015-12-01T06:28:11Z drmeister: 'night
2015-12-01T06:29:21Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: does ECL have any socket reference?
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2015-12-01T06:30:03Z phoe_krk: I've made basic googling around https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/ and I can't see anything
2015-12-01T06:31:36Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: it's suported by iolib and usocket, it's api is compatible with sb-bsd-sockets
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2015-12-01T06:32:25Z jasom: I haven't tried it, but basic-binary-ipc should work as well
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2015-12-01T06:33:01Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: thanks
2015-12-01T06:33:12Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: does it include sockets in non-blocking mode?
2015-12-01T06:33:50Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: yes
2015-12-01T06:34:08Z jackdaniel: you may see the interface in src/contrib/sockets/sockets.lisp
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2015-12-01T06:44:15Z phadthai: phoe_krk: the interface is inspired from the sbcl sockets one and mostly compatible
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2015-12-01T08:00:22Z blubjr: should (format nil "~:(a ~~) b~)") evaluate to "A ~) B", or should it be an error because it doesn't worry about ~~ until after doing the case conversion
2015-12-01T08:00:47Z blubjr: the first behaviour makes more sense to me, but my lisp at least gives the second behaviour, i can't find anything about it in the hyperspec
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2015-12-01T08:04:30Z blubjr: im just worried about what the standard says and i don't see where it does
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2015-12-01T08:05:48Z blubjr: actually technically an unmatched ~) is ub so not necessarily an error but you know what i mean
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2015-12-01T08:41:28Z Bike: A ~) B makes more sense to me and it's what i get on local.
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2015-12-01T08:41:58Z Bike: ccl gives an error but i am not sure why
2015-12-01T08:42:24Z blubjr: ya im on ccl
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2015-12-01T08:42:53Z Bike: (format nil "~:(a ~~ ) b~)") works, might be a bug
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2015-12-01T09:08:28Z jlarocco: is anybody here familiar with the mixalot library?
2015-12-01T09:09:04Z jlarocco: I'm trying to use mpg123:decode-mp3-file to get sample data from MP3 files, and I'm consistently getting 2x as many samples as I expect
2015-12-01T09:11:07Z flip214: jlarocco: perhaps because of stereo?
2015-12-01T09:11:27Z flip214: are the samples duplicated, just similar, or 0?
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2015-12-01T09:14:03Z jlarocco: so I have a 1 minute 25 second mp3, encoded in stereo at 44100, signed 16 bit, and I get 32848032 samples
2015-12-01T09:15:21Z jlarocco: dividing by 2, and then by 44100 gives 169.918 seconds, which is 2.83 minutes
2015-12-01T09:15:28Z flip214: samples or bytes?
2015-12-01T09:15:37Z jlarocco: which is 2 minutes and 50 seconds
2015-12-01T09:15:43Z jlarocco: samples
2015-12-01T09:16:06Z jlarocco: i think
2015-12-01T09:16:31Z jlarocco: (type-of the-sample-buffer) -> (simple-array (signed-byte 16) (32848032))
2015-12-01T09:16:51Z flip214: because 85 sec * 44100 * 2 (stereo) gives me 7.5e6 samples
2015-12-01T09:17:04Z flip214: so even as bytes I'd only expect 15MB....
2015-12-01T09:17:46Z flip214: and if you write the data to /dev/dsp, does it sound right, or half as fast?
2015-12-01T09:18:18Z flip214: does the data look sane? are 16bit values just duplicated, or are there zeroes inbetween, is the last half 0-only, ...
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2015-12-01T09:18:49Z jlarocco: and (subseq (car the-sample-buffer) (* 44100 40) (* 44100 41)) returns a bunch of 16-bit signed numbers, which look more or less correct
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2015-12-01T09:19:05Z jlarocco: no duplicates, no 0s every other entry or anything
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2015-12-01T09:24:59Z flip214: care to paste example code?
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2015-12-01T09:33:54Z jlarocco: oh, yeah: http://paste.lisp.org/display/162757
2015-12-01T09:38:15Z flip214: hmmm, make a sin wave in audacity, save as mp3, and look at the resulting data?
2015-12-01T09:38:27Z flip214: or a triangle even
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2015-12-01T10:11:17Z jlarocco: strange, a 30 second sine wave from audacity has 2646000 samples, which is what I'd expect
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2015-12-01T10:14:27Z jlarocco: oh wait, it created a mono file
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2015-12-01T11:29:11Z jlarocco: I think I solved the problem
2015-12-01T11:29:59Z jlarocco: I should have noticed sooner, but the second half of the array was all zeroed out
2015-12-01T11:30:42Z jlarocco: it looks like decode-mp3-file is allocating the array 2x the size it actually needs
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2015-12-01T11:31:30Z jlarocco: https://github.com/ahefner/mixalot/blob/master/mpg123.lisp#L916
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2015-12-01T11:33:10Z jlarocco: i submitted a pull request
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2015-12-01T14:13:23Z ane: in SLIME, what's the deal with C-c C-z being bound to slime-nop?
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2015-12-01T14:26:26Z Xach: ane: I don't know. It used to do something different but was changed last year.
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2015-12-01T14:37:34Z ane: do you remember what it does? in other REPL environments it usually goes back to the previous buffer
2015-12-01T14:37:39Z ane: i mean, used to do
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2015-12-01T14:50:02Z jackdaniel: ane: on my machine: C-c C-z         slime-switch-to-output-buffer
2015-12-01T14:50:25Z jackdaniel: it puts me in the repl buffer
2015-12-01T14:51:17Z ane: yeah, what about in the repl buffer?
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2015-12-01T14:52:05Z jackdaniel: C-c C-z is undefined
2015-12-01T14:52:39Z jackdaniel: ah, that's what you meant
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2015-12-01T15:03:15Z oGMo: anyone know how widespread asdf3 installation is? it looks like recent SBCL ships with it, but i'm not usre how widespread _that_ is, either
2015-12-01T15:05:04Z Xach: oGMo: only clisp lacks asdf 3. it lacks any asdf at all.
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2015-12-01T15:05:34Z oGMo: Xach: ok. (and, wow)
2015-12-01T15:06:40Z Xach: not all implementations have the very latest asdf 3
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2015-12-01T15:09:11Z oGMo: heh, looks like :if-feature doesn't take (or ...) anyway
2015-12-01T15:09:59Z jackdaniel wonders whenever asdf api will stabilize someday
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2015-12-01T15:19:15Z easye: There's a *lot* of API...
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2015-12-01T15:32:30Z Cymew: If asdf-devel is to believed I think most implementations now have asdf v3, but probably not the latest. Fare would know the details.
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2015-12-01T17:10:09Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-12-01T17:11:46Z synchromesh: Good evening to you sir!
2015-12-01T17:11:46Z minion: synchromesh, memo from easye: I'm unsure which version of your code your last question referred to, but the error you quote seems to indicate that ASDF-JAR:PACKAGE is attempting to read JSS from within a jar to package, which won't work as far as I know.  I suppose the system you are trying to package includes JSS as a dependency in the ASDF:DEFSYSTEM form.  I might try removing JSS as an ASDF dependency, instead relying on REQUIRE to
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2015-12-01T17:15:01Z beach: I am making progress on my Clump library.  The tests pass and I am making good progress with the documentation: http://metamodular.com/clump.pdf
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2015-12-01T17:23:53Z Fade: nice :)
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2015-12-01T17:25:51Z beach: Thanks.  I am writing it for a single purpose, namely another library called Cluffer.  It is a library for representing an editor buffer which I extracted from Second Climacs.  It represents the buffer as a splay tree of lines, hence Clump.
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2015-12-01T17:26:53Z beach: I am kind of stuck with the GUI of Second Climacs, so I figured, if I extract the buffer representation (which I am fairly pleased with) perhaps progress can be made with other GUIs and with additions to the buffer that are independent of the GUI.
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2015-12-01T17:28:53Z Fade: what were you using for the interface?
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2015-12-01T17:29:49Z beach: CLIM3/CLIMatis.  I haven't decided what to do about presentation types for CLIM3/CLIMatis, so I have not implemented input, like minibuffer input, yet.
2015-12-01T17:30:10Z beach: But I think what I will do is to stick a CLIM2 interface on it using McCLIM.
2015-12-01T17:31:31Z beach: So 1. Finish the documentation for Clump.  2. Use it to finish Cluffer.  3.  Use Cluffer in Second Climacs.  4.  Write a CLIM2 interface for Second Climacs.
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2015-12-01T17:31:59Z beach: Most of it is already written so it is not a very ambitious sequence of projects.
2015-12-01T17:32:18Z rme: beach: Have you given some thought to Unicode combining characters and the whole rest of that mess in your buffer API?
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2015-12-01T17:32:49Z beach: Nope.  Sorry.  The buffer can contain any Common Lisp object though.
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2015-12-01T17:34:00Z beach: Maybe once I get Cluffer out there, someone who knows more about that stuff can give it some thought.
2015-12-01T17:34:02Z rme: I'm not trying to be critcal;  just wondering.  I have thought about it a bit, but I don't really have a good solution in mind.

2015-12-01T17:34:26Z beach: Yeah, I know it's messy, but that is basically the extent of my knowledge.
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2015-12-01T17:36:24Z Fade: how are combining characters handled in other editors?
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2015-12-01T17:43:48Z beach: I need to go fix dinner.  But I'll read the logs if you come up with something interesting.
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2015-12-01T17:46:12Z rme: If your IRC client is good with Unicode,  a⃝  will be a small letter a with a circle around it.  My emacs. for instance, renders that as two characters: an "a" and then a little box indicating that the font has no corresponding glyph for the character.
2015-12-01T17:46:33Z Shinmera: Unicode is a scarily complex standard.
2015-12-01T17:46:45Z rme: My impression is that lots of common editors kind of ignore the issue.  I can hardly blame them.
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2015-12-01T17:46:54Z shka: Shinmera: Unicode or UTF?
2015-12-01T17:46:57Z shka: https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo
2015-12-01T17:46:57Z Shinmera: Unicode.
2015-12-01T17:47:03Z shka: anybody using these?
2015-12-01T17:48:15Z shka: it looks rather sweet
2015-12-01T17:48:24Z shka: not sure if there is anything better
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2015-12-01T17:53:11Z sellout: shka: I’m not aware of anything better. I think it’s pretty good ;)
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2015-12-01T17:55:37Z sellout: shka: It could probably use more docs, and there’s a lightning talk deck from last year’s ILC that I should post somewhere.
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2015-12-01T17:57:59Z jasom: Shinmera: unicode is arguably simpler than it should be, despite its complexity.  It's a complex problem.
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2015-12-01T17:59:37Z shka: sellout: i'm a little bit scared by " It is still very new and not too well tested so you should expect some rough edges and changes in its future design." while last commit was 2 years ago
2015-12-01T18:00:54Z jasom: beach: aren't line-based representations of a buffer slow for loading large files?
2015-12-01T18:01:13Z sellout: shka: I think that comment is out of date ;) Most of the problem is that it relies on parts of the MOP that are buggy in many CL impls, so there are workarounds when possible.
2015-12-01T18:01:48Z sellout: Or, actually, not even the mop, but in define-method-combination, which is simply a poorly-specified bit of ANSI CL.
2015-12-01T18:01:56Z sellout: (but the MOP, too)
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2015-12-01T18:04:33Z shka: sellout: ok, i'm under impression that this is exactly what I need in order to actually be productive with cl
2015-12-01T18:04:44Z shka: sellout: thanks for writting it!
2015-12-01T18:05:58Z sellout: On the shoulders of giants^W Matthias Hölzl.
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2015-12-01T18:06:42Z oleo: i'd prefer on the boobs of giants.......
2015-12-01T18:06:50Z oleo: lol
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2015-12-01T18:09:44Z dlowe: contracts look like a way to structure assertion statements?
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2015-12-01T18:10:19Z dlowe: Aren't they verified at compile time with logic provers in Eiffel?
2015-12-01T18:10:50Z Shinmera: Most things can't be proven at compile time.
2015-12-01T18:10:58Z Shinmera: So it's still loads of run time checking.
2015-12-01T18:11:28Z jasom: dlowe: one static thing that Eiffel provides is that preconditions cannot be strengthened by inheritance and postconditions cannot be weakened
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2015-12-01T18:15:26Z sellout: jasom: Yeah, and Quid Pro Quo checks that, too. If a precondition is strengthened, you get a warning. It’s impossible to weaken a postcondition, because a postcondition is the product of postconditions on the hierarchy.
2015-12-01T18:18:28Z PuercoPop: oGMo: it does take it, but it has to be a keyword :or, check the grammar in the asdf manual
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2015-12-01T18:21:09Z oGMo: PuercoPop: ah cool
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2015-12-01T18:39:46Z jasom: sellout: I would think that having implicit postconditions would be error prone, but I take it that you haven't found that to be true.
2015-12-01T18:40:56Z sellout: @jasom: How so?
2015-12-01T18:42:35Z sellout: @jasom: Conditions are added to the docstrings of functions they’re applied to, and failures show the specific condition that failed, so hopefully that’s explicit enough to track down where one failed.
2015-12-01T18:42:44Z sellout: Ugh, sorry – Slack syntax.
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2015-12-01T18:53:06Z jasom: sellout: no worries
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2015-12-01T18:57:16Z beach: jasom: Very likely slower than a simple gap buffer.  But I am more concerned about associating information such as parser state with lines than with reading and writing huge files.
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2015-12-01T19:26:19Z n2kra_:  (ABCL) if updated could J be made a like a contrib jar module
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2015-12-01T19:32:45Z n2kra_: beach> presentations ? (Mc)CLIM
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2015-12-01T20:59:31Z pjb:  rme: next you will be asking that "a⃝" be a string of length 1, (which the CL standard would allow, but this would imply that char-code-limit would be on the order of 2644598017394415282980887909431010067380614499508682752  or something like that.
2015-12-01T21:01:20Z n2kra_: UTF-21 ?
2015-12-01T21:02:20Z rme: I'm saying that I think I would want an editor's forward-char command to go over the whole "a with circle" combined entity.
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2015-12-01T21:03:21Z Bike: i guess you'd have extension functions to break a character into codepoints, or something...
2015-12-01T21:03:41Z dlowe: rme: how would you remove the secondary entity, then?
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2015-12-01T21:04:48Z rme: dlowe: One way would be to require the user to delete the whole entity and re-type it.  Another might be to use M-delete or something to take off combining characters.
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2015-12-01T21:06:53Z jasom: I agree that combining characters ought to be treated as a single character for editors.
2015-12-01T21:07:03Z pjb: rme: definitely.  An unicode editor would also allow you to edit those combinations.
2015-12-01T21:07:44Z pjb: inspect, edit, normalize, able to search a and find а etc.
2015-12-01T21:08:22Z pjb: (map 'list 'char-code "aа") #| --> (97 1072) |#
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2015-12-01T21:09:37Z jasom: I typically want to navigate by glyphs not by unicode code-points
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2015-12-01T21:11:22Z jasom: Of course what should happen if you hit delete immediately before this: ffi?
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2015-12-01T21:12:53Z ASau: More complex question is what should happen if you hit delete immediately before Ѿ.
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2015-12-01T21:13:47Z rme: jasom: probably ff.
2015-12-01T21:14:06Z jasom: rme: but it's a single code-point because of "history"
2015-12-01T21:14:12Z rme: But I believe ligatures and combining character sequences are distinct.
2015-12-01T21:14:47Z ASau: rme: is ы a ligature or not?
2015-12-01T21:14:51Z jasom: rme: several ligatures have their own code-points because existing documents worked this way; they are distinct from other ligatures
2015-12-01T21:15:49Z ASau: rme: what about ß?
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2015-12-01T21:16:10Z jasom: ы is not a ligature, ß I think is no longer considered one, but slightly more controversial
2015-12-01T21:16:27Z ASau: jasom: you're wrong on ы.
2015-12-01T21:16:43Z ASau: (Given your position on ß.)
2015-12-01T21:17:31Z Xof: if you hit delete immediately before ffi, you delete the character before it
2015-12-01T21:17:31Z jasom: actually I suppose it depends on which language you are speaking for ы
2015-12-01T21:17:44Z pjb: If your editor transforms ss into ß then ß DEL should leave s.  Unless for reason of orthography, if it checks it.
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2015-12-01T21:18:06Z ASau: pjb: why not "z"?
2015-12-01T21:18:51Z rme: I consider a ligature to be a typographic concept. The ffi ligature, for example, represents three letters.  The right thing, IMO, would be for an editor to treat it like three letters.
2015-12-01T21:19:12Z ASau: jasom: consider the main language where this letter comes from.
2015-12-01T21:19:22Z jasom: ASau: Church slavic?
2015-12-01T21:19:23Z Xof: (less facetiously: I think that there is no one right thing.  It will depend on context)
2015-12-01T21:19:32Z pjb: indeed.
2015-12-01T21:19:50Z Xof: in text modes, I think ffi is three letters.  In programming modes, it's probably one
2015-12-01T21:19:52Z ASau: jasom: it's true that for later scripts it can be easily considered single letter.
2015-12-01T21:20:17Z rme: It's all a big pain, certainly.
2015-12-01T21:20:24Z Xof: it's an opportunity!
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2015-12-01T21:20:59Z ASau: jasom: in old Russian it was definitely a ligature "ъі".
2015-12-01T21:21:08Z pjb: Also, you'd have to consider how it's input.  If you type f f i to obtain ffi then DEL would be equivalent to f f to obtain ff.
2015-12-01T21:21:39Z pjb: but if you have a key binding to get ffi from a single key, then perhaps you should remove it entirely when followed by DEL.
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2015-12-01T21:22:17Z jasom: post 1996 ß is a distinct letter from ss in German, and no other modern languages use it; for historical documents it will mostly be considered a ligature
2015-12-01T21:22:17Z pjb: ie. the context is not only the language and type of document, but also the input method and other user interface considerations.
2015-12-01T21:23:12Z pjb: jasom: yes, and notably there are words distinguished only on ss vs. ß; ss -> ß might still be in the input method, hence my remark above.
2015-12-01T21:24:36Z ASau: BTW, Emacs follows correct correspondence of sz -> ß at least in one of input modes.
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2015-12-01T21:25:22Z ASau: ("german-postfix", if you want to try it out.)
2015-12-01T21:26:48Z ASau: There're other interesting signs besides Ѿ actually.
2015-12-01T21:27:16Z ASau: Ѥ, Ѩ, and Ѭ are interesting in this respect too.
2015-12-01T21:28:13Z ASau: Despite the outlook, I'm not sure that they are ligatures. :D
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2015-12-01T21:29:58Z jlarocco_: strange
2015-12-01T21:30:49Z jlarocco_: I selected those characters and middle-click pasted them into emacs and they didn't show up
2015-12-01T21:31:10Z jlarocco_: resulted in: Ѥ, Ѩ, and Ѭ
2015-12-01T21:31:30Z jasom: ASau: you've convinced me I need to update my fallback list for my terminal
2015-12-01T21:31:32Z ASau reads it clear.
2015-12-01T21:31:54Z ASau: jasom: ?
2015-12-01T21:32:02Z jlarocco_: but middle click pasting into chrome and other windows works
2015-12-01T21:32:07Z jlarocco_: i'll have to look into that
2015-12-01T21:32:23Z jasom: ASau: my terminal wasn't able to render the early cyrillic characters you pasted
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2015-12-01T21:32:36Z jasom: e.g. yus
2015-12-01T21:32:48Z ASau: I'm not sure that they are "early."
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2015-12-01T21:33:32Z ASau: They could be force-dropped from official alphabet in 1708 earliest.
2015-12-01T21:33:49Z jasom: they were in early cyrillic
2015-12-01T21:33:53Z jasom: they are not in modern cyrillic
2015-12-01T21:33:55Z ASau: That makes them last 3/4 of the whole life.
2015-12-01T21:34:27Z ASau: jasom: my font doesn't even have some letters from modern Cyrillic script.
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2015-12-01T21:34:53Z jasom: ASau: with unicode aware programs you can typically provide a list of fonts to fallback on if your main font lacks a character
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2015-12-01T21:35:55Z jasom: I thought I was fairly complete since I can render Georgian, CJK, Thai, and Amharic... you found a hole
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2015-12-01T21:36:28Z jasom: I suppose the fact that I can render this: ᚻᛖ ᚳᚹᚫᚦ ᚦᚫᛏ ᚻᛖ ᛒᚢᛞᛖ ᚩᚾ ᚦᚫᛗ ᛚᚪᚾᛞᛖ ᚾᚩᚱᚦᚹᛖᚪᚱᛞᚢᛗ ᚹᛁᚦ ᚦᚪ ᚹᛖᛥᚫ just points to the anglocentrism of my setup
2015-12-01T21:36:29Z pjb: just install all the fonts you can grab.
2015-12-01T21:36:33Z ASau: I have ԠԡԢԣԤԥ but not ԦԧԨԩԪԫԬԭԮԯ
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2015-12-01T21:36:38Z pjb: :-)
2015-12-01T21:36:45Z ASau: All those are from modern script.
2015-12-01T21:36:47Z pjb: I've got Ԧԧ but not ԨԩԪԫԬԭԮԯ
2015-12-01T21:37:42Z pjb: runes are complicated too, there are 5 or 6 variations for times and space boxes…
2015-12-01T21:38:05Z pjb: for different time and space boxes.
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2015-12-01T21:42:48Z aeth: I have what pjb has and Ԯԯ
2015-12-01T21:42:53Z DeadTrickster: My pixels broken or what?\
2015-12-01T21:43:05Z DeadTrickster: do you guys see these symbols too?
2015-12-01T21:43:11Z shka: DeadTrickster: t
2015-12-01T21:43:23Z jonh: i do
2015-12-01T21:43:41Z DeadTrickster: huh
2015-12-01T21:43:48Z pjb: Just install all the fonts.
2015-12-01T21:43:56Z aeth: I am only missing 6 assuming pjb and ASau used the same 6
2015-12-01T21:44:00Z pjb: emacs is not to bad at displaying most of unicode.
2015-12-01T21:44:24Z aeth: ԨԩԪԫԬԭ
2015-12-01T21:44:29Z pjb: I lack u+0528 - u+052F.
2015-12-01T21:44:32Z aeth: Those are the only ones I don't have.
2015-12-01T21:44:49Z DeadTrickster: aeth,  I see ԨԩԪԫԬԭ
2015-12-01T21:44:50Z Xof: hunter42
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2015-12-01T21:46:39Z aeth: I probably don't have the Unicode emoji
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2015-12-01T21:51:28Z aeth: Actually, I do. It's a font called Symbola apparently.
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2015-12-01T21:52:45Z aeth: 🗺
2015-12-01T21:52:57Z aeth: That doesn't show up in my terminal, though, when I paste it in.
2015-12-01T21:53:53Z aeth: Interesting. The flaw is Konsole and not my system fonts. The fonts I couldn't see show up in emacs.
2015-12-01T21:54:05Z aeth: (Except for the world map.)
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2015-12-01T22:03:04Z jasom: aeth: I use urxvt which lets you specify a custom fallback list
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2015-12-01T22:03:18Z jasom: I just added unifont to the end for ugly, but existing characters on the entire BMP
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2015-12-01T22:10:27Z k-stz: I have a naming question: I want to write a library that will be used to write and test sicp's picture language. That's a dsl to describe nested pictures and patterns within a parallelogram. What would be a good name?
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2015-12-01T22:16:12Z plertrood: The two hard problems in computer science : caching and naming things...
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2015-12-01T22:19:03Z k-stz: picture-language-primitives picture-language-package
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2015-12-01T22:20:15Z pillton: k-stz: http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/
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2015-12-01T22:22:27Z pillton: k-stz: I sometimes use names of characters from The Wire.
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2015-12-01T22:23:38Z jasom: picture-language-ultimate-maker-package or PLUMP for short
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2015-12-01T22:24:25Z pillton: light-blue-bike-shed
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2015-12-01T22:24:57Z jasom: Package to Implement MITs Picture Language PIMPL
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2015-12-01T22:26:45Z k-stz: I'll give it a descriptive long one and rename it when I forget I wanted to rename it. that'll fix it
2015-12-01T22:28:31Z k-stz: jasom: something like that looks good minus the acronym
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2015-12-01T22:34:53Z jasom: I'm old-school; it's not a legitimate project until it has a dorky acronym
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2015-12-01T22:40:48Z k-stz: I feel like an acronym makes it something for wide use. As if it needs a terse handle because it will be oft used in talks and writing
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2015-12-01T22:42:20Z k-stz: PIMPL just begs the next iteration that makes it Easy or Extensible
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2015-12-01T22:50:24Z nyef: k-stz: And a knock-off library that is a three-letter recursive acronym ending in "... Imaging Tool".
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2015-12-02T01:04:50Z philosophydude-3: Any pagans here?
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2015-12-02T02:59:26Z darlinger: sort of
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2015-12-02T03:10:29Z namespace: (cons #'concatenate '('(a b c) '(d e f)))
2015-12-02T03:10:30Z namespace: (#<FUNCTION CONCATENATE> '(A B C) '(D E F))
2015-12-02T03:10:38Z namespace: Is it possible to execute this?
2015-12-02T03:11:05Z namespace: Oh wait I want apply don't I...
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2015-12-02T03:12:16Z Bike: most likely.
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2015-12-02T03:58:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-02T03:59:51Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-12-02T04:00:53Z blub: hi beach
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2015-12-02T04:03:47Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-12-02T04:05:44Z beach: In the logs, I saw the discussion on how to handle Unicode.  I didn't get any wiser, though.  I am guessing it should not be the buffer that handles that; it should just store sequences of Common Lisp objects.  It is up to the view to do something reasonable to display the contents.
2015-12-02T04:06:20Z beach: Yet another reason to extract the buffer abstraction from the rest of the editor, I guess.
2015-12-02T04:09:05Z jasom: beach: I agree; the buffer stores either characters or bytes (depending on how you want to do it) what happens when you press "delete" is up to whomever controls the buffer
2015-12-02T04:09:25Z beach: That too, yes.
2015-12-02T04:10:09Z jasom: beach: tell me more about the splay tree of lines; what are the keys?
2015-12-02T04:10:27Z beach: jasom: AHA!
2015-12-02T04:10:41Z beach: Common misunderstanding that trees must be used as search trees.
2015-12-02T04:10:53Z beach: In fact, most trees can be used to encode sequences.
2015-12-02T04:11:04Z jasom: this is true
2015-12-02T04:11:05Z beach: Instead of storing keys, you store the number of lines in a subtree.
2015-12-02T04:11:18Z beach needs to finish his books on data structures.
2015-12-02T04:11:38Z rme: Here's a dumb question.  Suppose there is a reverse-line command.  That would need to be Unicode-aware in order to work correctly. So do commands of this nature sit on top of the buffer abstraction?
2015-12-02T04:11:41Z jasom: an in-order traversal of a tree will be a sequence; is there another way?
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2015-12-02T04:12:03Z jasom: though in this case, you could say that the key is the index in the sequence (it works out the same)
2015-12-02T04:12:19Z beach: jasom: That's pretty much it.  You can get to a particular line by following size slots.
2015-12-02T04:12:39Z beach: jasom: Yes, but if you do that, you have to update every node for every operation.
2015-12-02T04:13:16Z beach: rme: In my opinion, yes.  It would be client code that takes out the contents, processes it, and puts in some other contents.
2015-12-02T04:14:07Z jasom: so this gives you faster random access than a list, but faster inserts than an array
2015-12-02T04:14:37Z beach: jasom: Yes, and self caching because of the splay tree.
2015-12-02T04:14:40Z jasom: very long lines will be inefficient in this representatino of course, but that's not a use case for most code editors
2015-12-02T04:14:55Z beach: Frequently-used lines migrate to be close to the root.
2015-12-02T04:15:08Z brucem: jasom: People keep opening minified files in editors and getting upset when the editor dies.
2015-12-02T04:15:16Z beach: jasom: I use a gap buffer, so my lines are as good as Emacs buffers.
2015-12-02T04:15:26Z jasom: a gap buffer for each line?
2015-12-02T04:15:27Z jasom: nice
2015-12-02T04:15:29Z beach: Yes.
2015-12-02T04:15:49Z jasom: brucem: opening minified files with syntax-highlighting on can be fun
2015-12-02T04:16:13Z brucem: jasom: yes.
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2015-12-02T04:16:28Z beach: jasom: I have the concept of open/closed lines.  An open line is a gap buffer.  A closed line is an array.
2015-12-02T04:16:47Z jasom: beach: do you use the depth in the splay tree for open/closed?
2015-12-02T04:16:54Z jasom: beach: or some other metric?
2015-12-02T04:17:09Z beach: I think right now, only the current line is open.
2015-12-02T04:17:31Z beach: But I have the possibility of having (say) the N last edited lines open.
2015-12-02T04:17:37Z jasom: brucem: I have an alias that runs vim with a config that disables all filetype plugins and syntax for opening such files
2015-12-02T04:17:38Z beach: Not sure it is worth it.
2015-12-02T04:17:51Z beach: Anyway, for those who didn't see it, here is the documentation for Clump.  When I finish the part about binary trees, I'll put it on hold for a while and work on Cluff (the buffer abstraction that uses splay trees): http://metamodular.com/clump.pdf
2015-12-02T04:18:19Z jasom: beach: I saw that after you went to bead; it looks interesting
2015-12-02T04:18:27Z beach: jasom: Depth in the splay tree would probably be pretty much equivalent to that.
2015-12-02T04:18:46Z beach: ... to the last N lines, that is.
2015-12-02T04:18:49Z jasom: beach: not quite; e.g. edit line, hit up 20 times, edit line
2015-12-02T04:19:17Z jasom: if you only convert to gap buffer on a write, that would be different from read-only accesses
2015-12-02T04:19:18Z beach: Right, not quite.
2015-12-02T04:20:06Z beach: I forget exactly what I do at the moment.  I do know that there is some kind of protocol for lines so that client code can adapt it.
2015-12-02T04:20:17Z beach: Object-oriented programming in CLOS and all that.
2015-12-02T04:21:14Z beach: The buffer protocol (the sequence of lines) is fairly separate from the line protocol (the sequence of characters in a line).
2015-12-02T04:23:39Z beach: The part about the buffer that I am the most pleased with is the buffer-update protocol.  It allows client code to issue an arbitrary number of editing operations without having the views of the contents involved.  Each view can then query the buffer concerning updates from last time.  And this query is very efficient if only a few lines have changed between two updates.
2015-12-02T04:24:43Z beach: Once I get the extracted code to work with Clump, I will update the documentation so that this aspect will be clear.
2015-12-02T04:27:43Z beach: I was thinking the other day that there is a lot of functionality in (say) Emacs that is independent of the way things are shown to the user in a view.  For that reason, I have some hope that the buffer abstraction could evolve independently of the exact editor that uses it.
2015-12-02T04:33:11Z phf: i was just asking for something like that recently, when you weren't around. i have a very naive buffer implementation (a string backed buffer, with protocol identical to emacs's), which i use as a stepping stone when porting elisp hacks to common lisp. i'd like to move it to a more sensible set of data structures
2015-12-02T04:33:56Z beach: This might be an opportunity then.
2015-12-02T04:36:12Z phf: is that your "cluffer" project? or buffers in climacs2?
2015-12-02T04:36:38Z beach: It's Cluffer.  I am extracting the buffer code from Second Climacs into Cluffer.
2015-12-02T04:36:46Z phf: ah i see
2015-12-02T04:37:04Z beach: It is different from (first) Climacs which uses flexichain as a buffer.
2015-12-02T04:40:29Z beach: phf: As I explained, Second Climacs is stuck without input because CLIM3/CLIMatis is stuck without presentation types.  I am hoping the way forward is to extract the buffer of Second Climacs, and then give Second Climacs a CLIM2 GUI, at least temporarily.
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2015-12-02T04:46:54Z beach: phf: Second Climacs also has a layer of abstraction that turns the Cluffer protocols into an Emacs protocol.  I am considering including that layer in Cluffer as well.
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2015-12-02T04:47:46Z phf: that'll be in line with some of your other projects. an emacs construction kit :)
2015-12-02T04:48:03Z beach: Yeah.  People don't change much. :)
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2015-12-02T04:50:40Z loke: I've written a small function that expands stupid tracking-links, such as t.co
2015-12-02T04:50:58Z loke: Very useful. I also noticed that often these things runs several levels deep.
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2015-12-02T07:16:47Z smokeink: does ecl provide a parameter similar to sbcl's --quit ?
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2015-12-02T07:21:53Z jackdaniel: smokeink: what does quit do?
2015-12-02T07:22:32Z Bike: makes sbcl stop after everything's processed, so you can just run it to eval stuff on the command line, and so on
2015-12-02T07:23:02Z jackdaniel: ecl -eval "(list 1 2 3)" -eval "(quit)"
2015-12-02T07:23:12Z jackdaniel: something like direct evaling "quit" ?
2015-12-02T07:23:24Z smokeink: yeah -eval might do :)
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2015-12-02T07:26:02Z JuanDaugherty: why don't you just quit programmatically?
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2015-12-02T07:26:21Z smokeink: i could
2015-12-02T07:28:34Z smokeink: how to add args in ecl ? any param like sbcl's  --end-toplevel-options ? for example if i want to execute the current script $0 and transmit the params to it $@ i use this: exec sbcl --noinform --load $0 --quit --end-toplevel-options "$0" "$@"
2015-12-02T07:30:58Z smokeink: JuanDaugherty: if i put (quit) at the end of the code sbcl gives a warning '(quit) is deprecated' , sbcl wants (exit) instead. ecl doesn't have (exit)
2015-12-02T07:31:23Z JuanDaugherty: it's got something. I don't use it.
2015-12-02T07:31:49Z jackdaniel: smokeink: did you consider using cl-launch for these purposes? it does it portably for wide number of implementations
2015-12-02T07:31:51Z JuanDaugherty: quit, die, exit, terminate, return, something
2015-12-02T07:31:55Z jackdaniel: like providing the entry point etc
2015-12-02T07:32:41Z JuanDaugherty: detach even
2015-12-02T07:34:19Z jackdaniel: cl-launch may be used like this helper script: http://paste.lisp.org/display/163315
2015-12-02T07:34:37Z jackdaniel: and it's invocable with a shell command
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2015-12-02T07:37:23Z smokeink: jackdaniel: i'll give it a try, thanks for the suggestion
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2015-12-02T07:37:32Z jackdaniel: sure :)
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2015-12-02T07:53:19Z smokeink: http://pastecode.ru/331e3/ cl-launch fails with ecl
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2015-12-02T08:01:31Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure what this error mean, works on my machine OK
2015-12-02T08:01:33Z smokeink: hmm strange bug, it vanished
2015-12-02T08:01:48Z smokeink: now it works fine here too
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2015-12-02T08:04:11Z jackdaniel: http://fare.livejournal.com/184127.html here is some scarce destription how to create a multicall binaries
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2015-12-02T12:50:16Z arnaudga: hello, I'm in trouble to debug some sources, will you point me to a good tutorial/how to ? I'm using Debian/emacs/slime/sbcl/quicklislp. I'm particularly interested in "step by step" in my code
2015-12-02T12:50:43Z namespace: arnaudga: So if you're using sbcl, the debugger you get on error includes a step-by-step function.
2015-12-02T12:52:06Z arnaudga: yes, but i don't get on error, but on infinite loop, and would like to see what happen in each function
2015-12-02T12:52:10Z Shinmera: arnaudga: This series is rather good. http://malisper.me/2015/08/19/debugging-lisp-part-5-miscellaneous/
2015-12-02T12:52:56Z arnaudga: Thanks Shinmera
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2015-12-02T16:08:29Z Posterdati: hi
2015-12-02T16:09:19Z Posterdati: I've got problem load gsll for ecl on freebsd 10
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2015-12-02T16:12:03Z Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/163616
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2015-12-02T16:16:08Z hlavaty: Posterdati: likely, there is no such thing as FFI_SYSV on bsd-sparc64
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2015-12-02T16:17:16Z Posterdati: hlavaty: where is it defined?
2015-12-02T16:17:52Z hlavaty: its not defined, but it's used in libffi-unix.c:71
2015-12-02T16:18:39Z hlavaty: you'll need to fix/port libffi-unix.c to your system
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2015-12-02T16:51:20Z otwieracz: OK, I do not get it – how it is intended to work?
2015-12-02T16:51:37Z otwieracz: Looks like it's generating C code.
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2015-12-02T16:56:00Z jasom: jackdaniel: with ecl multicall is less necessary than with sbcl as ecl binaries are much smaller (but of course much higher startup time as well)
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2015-12-02T17:00:41Z LiamH: otwieracz: it generates C that is compiled, loaded, and run; that C program writes out a lisp file that is then compiled and loaded in CL.
2015-12-02T17:01:04Z otwieracz: Oh my
2015-12-02T17:01:12Z DeadTrickster: (format nil "~{~a~^, ~}" '(1 2 3 4))  how to move #\, to variable?
2015-12-02T17:01:29Z LiamH: The most reliable parser of C include files is a C compiler.
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2015-12-02T17:06:41Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-12-02T17:06:50Z oleo: evening beach
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2015-12-02T17:09:54Z beach: This is the close-to-final version of the Clump documentation: http://metamodular.com/clump.pdf
2015-12-02T17:09:55Z beach: I will take suggestions for improvements, but that shall have to be either by email or starting tomorrow (UTC+1) because I am to tired to deal with it now.
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2015-12-02T17:10:27Z beach: I guess I could check the logs in case someone prefers to give comments here in #lisp.
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2015-12-02T17:13:21Z Posterdati: LiamH: hi
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2015-12-02T17:14:31Z LiamH: Hi Posterdati
2015-12-02T17:15:02Z Posterdati: LiamH: I've got some problem with gsll on freebsd 10
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2015-12-02T17:22:57Z Posterdati: LiamH: to tell the truth is a cffi problem:  http://paste.lisp.org/display/163616
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2015-12-02T17:24:00Z LiamH: No, it's a libffi problem
2015-12-02T17:25:13Z LiamH: I'd say the header files aren't installed but it doesn't give ffi.h missing error, it seems to have that. It just doesn't know any of the definitions in it.
2015-12-02T17:26:00Z Posterdati: there was several speces between -g options and the rest
2015-12-02T17:26:13Z Posterdati: but seems to compile the same way
2015-12-02T17:26:14Z LiamH: Are you sure libffi exists for BSD/sparc64?
2015-12-02T17:26:19Z Posterdati: yes
2015-12-02T17:26:32Z Posterdati: I installed it via ports
2015-12-02T17:26:53Z LiamH: No idea what that is, but OK.
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2015-12-02T17:27:36Z Posterdati: //usr/ports/devel/libffi
2015-12-02T17:27:51Z LiamH: So, libffi-unix.lisp isn't correct for BSD. You'll have to modify it.
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2015-12-02T17:28:04Z Posterdati: LiamH: ok...
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2015-12-02T17:28:30Z Posterdati: (cenum abi
2015-12-02T17:28:30Z Posterdati:  ((:default-abi "FFI_DEFAULT_ABI"))
2015-12-02T17:28:31Z Posterdati:  ((:sysv "FFI_SYSV"))
2015-12-02T17:28:31Z Posterdati:  ((:unix64 "FFI_UNIX64")))
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2015-12-02T17:29:57Z Posterdati: seems it is defined here
2015-12-02T17:30:09Z LiamH: yup
2015-12-02T17:30:16Z Posterdati: but?
2015-12-02T17:30:37Z LiamH: but?
2015-12-02T17:30:51Z Posterdati: where is the problem?
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2015-12-02T17:31:33Z LiamH: looks like FFI_SYSV and FFI_UNIX64 aren't defined for your libffi.
2015-12-02T17:32:46Z LiamH: I guess all you have is "FFI_DEFAULT_ABI", which is all you need really.
2015-12-02T17:33:23Z Posterdati: //usr/local/include/ffi.h hasn't got them
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2015-12-02T17:33:36Z LiamH: Indeed, I figured that must be the case.
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2015-12-02T17:33:52Z LiamH: Based on the error message.
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2015-12-02T17:34:30Z LiamH: So you need to create a new cenum abi form and then conditionalize the two #+bsd #-bsd appropriately.
2015-12-02T17:35:07Z Posterdati: ok but I do not know the abi infos to fill the cenum
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2015-12-02T17:35:28Z LiamH: I'm assuming :bsd occurs in *features*.
2015-12-02T17:35:56Z Posterdati: :FREEBSD
2015-12-02T17:36:04Z LiamH: OK then that
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2015-12-02T17:37:39Z Shinmera: beach: How would your buffer/trees deal with something like multiple cursors?
2015-12-02T17:38:10Z Shinmera: beach: Having multiple cursors is an emacs package that I use very extensively every day, so I'm wondering if there's a way to make it more efficient (it's pretty damn slow in emacs).
2015-12-02T17:38:39Z beach: Shinmera: The Cluffer library attaches cursors to lines, and you can use as many cursors as you like.
2015-12-02T17:39:01Z jasom: beach! I thought you were asleep
2015-12-02T17:39:16Z Shinmera: beach: Even multiple cursors on the same line?
2015-12-02T17:39:29Z beach: Shinmera: Yes.
2015-12-02T17:39:34Z Shinmera: Great!
2015-12-02T17:39:51Z beach: jasom: I do go to sleep early, but not this early.  However, dinner is imminent and I shall have to leave soon.
2015-12-02T17:40:12Z Posterdati: LiamH: #+freebsd (cc-flags "-I/usr/local/include")
2015-12-02T17:40:15Z Posterdati: too?
2015-12-02T17:40:46Z LiamH: No, please don't put any paths into code.
2015-12-02T17:41:05Z beach: Shinmera: In fact, there is a very simple optimization that I haven't implemented and that makes the time for most simple operations independent of the number of cursors.
2015-12-02T17:41:18Z beach: I believe I implemented it in Climacs, however.
2015-12-02T17:41:27Z jasom: beach: I noticed your comment about 2-3 trees; I haven't done those, but I found 2-4 trees easier to get right than red-black tress which are isometric to them. (There's a binary tree that is isometric to 2-3 trees but I can't recall the name)
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2015-12-02T17:42:03Z beach: jasom: Right, I forget which one.
2015-12-02T17:42:19Z jasom: beach: aha wikipedia to the rescue: AA trees
2015-12-02T17:42:28Z beach: Ah, interesting.
2015-12-02T17:42:43Z jasom: I'm pretty sure that nobody willingly implements red-black trees twice
2015-12-02T17:42:49Z beach: Arne Andersson as I recall?
2015-12-02T17:42:59Z beach: Heh.
2015-12-02T17:43:16Z jasom: Indeed Arne Andersson; good memory
2015-12-02T17:43:49Z beach: I looked at those a few years ago.  Smart guy.
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2015-12-02T17:45:02Z beach: Shinmera: As Cluffer is written now, cursors in one line do not affect the performance of editing operations in a different line.
2015-12-02T17:45:08Z jasom: The paper was written in 1993, which is fairly recent for binary tree research
2015-12-02T17:45:21Z beach: That's true.
2015-12-02T17:45:53Z Shinmera: beach: I was just looking at gap buffers earlier today and was curious about how multiple cursors would be handled by that.
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2015-12-02T17:46:31Z beach: Shinmera: By storing the physical location rather than the logical location in the cursor, you don't have to update the cursors for each insertion.  Only when the gap moves.
2015-12-02T17:46:47Z beach: I do that in (first) Climacs already.
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2015-12-02T17:47:24Z beach: Er, so I guess that must be in the Flexichain code, since (first) Climacs uses Flexichain.
2015-12-02T17:48:39Z beach: jasom: I recall liking one of his papers that lets the tree get unbalanced and then just rebuilds the entire thing from time to time.  He proves that the amortized cost is still logarithmic per operation.  Nice stuff.
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2015-12-02T17:49:30Z beach: So he somehow monitors the imbalance and rebuilds when it gets too bad.
2015-12-02T17:50:14Z Shinmera: That sounds like quite a thing to prove.
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2015-12-02T17:50:39Z beach: His papers are quite accessible as I recall.
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2015-12-02T17:52:09Z beach: Dinner.  I might pop in briefly later.
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2015-12-02T17:54:53Z Posterdati: LiamH: definitions are in ffitarget.h not in ffi.h that's the problem
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2015-12-02T17:59:17Z LiamH: Interesting, I wondered about that; I recall that there is a second .h file.
2015-12-02T17:59:41Z LiamH: Why isn't it loaded?
2015-12-02T18:01:03Z jasom: Shinmera: if you can sort a tree with a maximum unbalanced height difference of M and size N  in Mlog(N) time then it's log(N) amortized insert
2015-12-02T18:01:51Z jasom: s/sort/balance
2015-12-02T18:02:55Z Posterdati: LiamH: in ffi.h there's an include for ffitarget.h
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2015-12-02T18:03:29Z LiamH: right, so it should be included
2015-12-02T18:04:11Z Posterdati: but in ffitarget.h there's only FFI_DEFAULT_ABI definition
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2015-12-02T18:04:36Z Posterdati: LiamH: I'm comparing it with the x86-64 version
2015-12-02T18:04:53Z LiamH: you said the definitions were in ffitarget.h
2015-12-02T18:05:11Z Posterdati: FFI_DEFAULT_ABI is an enum
2015-12-02T18:05:14Z Posterdati: yes
2015-12-02T18:05:38Z LiamH: I mean the others, are they in ffitarget or not?
2015-12-02T18:05:51Z Posterdati: no
2015-12-02T18:06:01Z Posterdati: SYSV is missing from borh
2015-12-02T18:06:03Z Posterdati: SYSV is missing from both
2015-12-02T18:06:15Z LiamH: Then you have the same problem as before. What file they're in is not important.
2015-12-02T18:06:46Z Posterdati: no
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2015-12-02T18:14:30Z Guest1197: DeadTrickster: (format nil "~:{~A~:^~A ~}" (mapcar (lambda (data) (list data #\,)) '(1 2 3 4))) #| --> "1, 2, 3, 4" |#
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2015-12-02T18:14:52Z DeadTrickster: I was waiting for you
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2015-12-02T18:15:09Z DeadTrickster: I knew you will tell me something
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2015-12-02T18:16:00Z DeadTrickster: however this looks uglier than hell, pjb can I do it with ~? or ~@?
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2015-12-02T18:17:59Z pjb: DeadTrickster: any other solution will be even uglier, but perhaps this: (format nil "~V,V/fmt-list/" "~A" ", " '(1 2 3 4)) but then you will have to write an ugly cl-user::fmt-list function.
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2015-12-02T18:22:05Z DeadTrickster: and this not even nested format control string!
2015-12-02T18:22:06Z Posterdati: LiamH: ok, bye bye to gsll on freebsd :)
2015-12-02T18:22:27Z Posterdati: LiamH: and I think other cffi related stuffs
2015-12-02T18:22:43Z LiamH: Not sure why, it seems like there's an easy solution there.
2015-12-02T18:23:24Z LiamH: 1) copy form 2) delete two lines 3) prepend conditionals
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2015-12-02T18:23:51Z Posterdati: it is not working
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2015-12-02T18:24:06Z Posterdati: because the costants are not defined
2015-12-02T18:24:08Z pjb: DeadTrickster: the problem is that there's no way to push/pop argument index with ~*.
2015-12-02T18:24:37Z LiamH: Posterdati: paste what you wrote
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2015-12-02T18:25:02Z LiamH: in lisppaste
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2015-12-02T18:26:26Z pjb: DeadTrickster: see for example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/163695
2015-12-02T18:26:54Z DeadTrickster: pjb, (format nil "~{~a~^~@? ~}" '(1 2 3 4) ","  ) -> 2 fell through ETYPECASE expression.
2015-12-02T18:26:54Z DeadTrickster: Wanted one of (SIMPLE-STRING STRING). why is that?
2015-12-02T18:27:23Z pjb: because 2 is not a string.
2015-12-02T18:27:53Z Bike: DeadTrickster: ~? still grabs an argument in the same way ~a does - so, from inside the list.
2015-12-02T18:27:53Z pjb: (format nil "~{~a~^~@? ~}" '(1 "~A" "," 2 "~A" "," 3 "~A" ","  4 "~A" "," )) #| --> "1, 2, 3, 4, " |#
2015-12-02T18:28:32Z Posterdati: LiamH: http://paste.lisp.org/display/163616#1
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2015-12-02T18:29:33Z jasom: Shinmera: http://user.it.uu.se/~arnea/ps/gb.pdf <-- general balanced trees; it's quite readable
2015-12-02T18:29:42Z DeadTrickster: (format nil "~{~a~^~@? ~}" '(1 "," 2 "," 3 "," 4 ","))
2015-12-02T18:29:44Z DeadTrickster: this works
2015-12-02T18:30:03Z DeadTrickster: however it still prints #\, after 4
2015-12-02T18:30:05Z LiamH: Posterdati: looks right to me, what error do you get?
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2015-12-02T18:30:20Z pjb: DeadTrickster: what do you think ~^ does?
2015-12-02T18:30:21Z Posterdati: LiamH: I'm recompiling
2015-12-02T18:30:29Z pjb: (format nil "~{~a~^~@? ~}" '(1 "," 2 "," 3 "," 4)) #| --> "1, 2, 3, 4" |#
2015-12-02T18:30:29Z Posterdati: LiamH: it seems to go!
2015-12-02T18:30:46Z LiamH: Posterdati: good!
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2015-12-02T18:30:59Z Posterdati: LiamH: not sure what happened
2015-12-02T18:31:16Z Posterdati: LiamH: I restarted the interpreter and it compiles now
2015-12-02T18:31:28Z DeadTrickster: pjb, blackmagic of course )
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2015-12-02T18:32:16Z Posterdati: this is the current file -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/163616#2
2015-12-02T18:32:32Z LiamH: Posterdati: Can you do a pull request on  CFFI github?
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2015-12-02T18:32:55Z Posterdati: LiamH: sure, how?
2015-12-02T18:33:21Z LiamH: Do you use git?
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2015-12-02T18:33:31Z DeadTrickster: pjb, well it skips everything till ~} after last arg.
2015-12-02T18:33:32Z DeadTrickster: hmm
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2015-12-02T18:34:00Z Posterdati: LiamH: sure
2015-12-02T18:34:22Z pjb: DeadTrickster: yes, and in (… 4 ",") what is the last argument?
2015-12-02T18:34:41Z DeadTrickster: "," yea it obvious now
2015-12-02T18:35:03Z LiamH: Posterdati: Fork the CFFI repo, commit your change, and you will see a button "Pull request" or something like that on github.
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2015-12-02T18:35:26Z DeadTrickster: lol
2015-12-02T18:35:28Z Posterdati: LiamH: may I do the same from the quicklisp repo dir?
2015-12-02T18:35:33Z LiamH: Posterdati: no
2015-12-02T18:35:59Z LiamH: Posterdati: I'll take care of it - you've pasted your file so I can commit it.
2015-12-02T18:36:27Z Posterdati: let me try
2015-12-02T18:36:33Z DeadTrickster: oh libffi shit
2015-12-02T18:36:41Z DeadTrickster: I always have to edit it manually
2015-12-02T18:36:52Z DeadTrickster: whenever QL updates cffi
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2015-12-02T18:40:41Z Posterdati: LiamH: I did it, please could you check?
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2015-12-02T18:42:59Z LiamH: Posterdati: Looks like Travis is still checking it.
2015-12-02T18:43:10Z Posterdati: ok
2015-12-02T18:43:15Z LiamH: but looks right
2015-12-02T18:43:48Z LiamH: Don't know if Travis includes a FreeBSD  check.
2015-12-02T18:44:14Z Posterdati: so FFI_SYSV and FFI_UNIX64 are not needed
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2015-12-02T18:44:33Z Posterdati: LiamH: it is compiling
2015-12-02T18:44:55Z Posterdati: LiamH: it is loading flexistream now!
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2015-12-02T18:45:05Z LiamH: Did you close the pull request?
2015-12-02T18:45:24Z Posterdati: yes
2015-12-02T18:45:41Z Posterdati: tapioco71 closed this 3 minutes ago
2015-12-02T18:46:06Z LiamH: I reopened
2015-12-02T18:46:10Z Posterdati: LiamH: why?
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2015-12-02T18:46:19Z LiamH: I can't merge it if it's closed.
2015-12-02T18:46:25Z Posterdati: ah ok
2015-12-02T18:46:31Z Posterdati: I didn't know that
2015-12-02T18:46:57Z Posterdati: is it still testing?
2015-12-02T18:47:01Z LiamH: yes
2015-12-02T18:47:09Z LiamH: I'll check on it later.
2015-12-02T18:47:23Z Posterdati: was fast
2015-12-02T18:47:28Z Posterdati: good!
2015-12-02T18:47:59Z LiamH: Still building on sbcl32
2015-12-02T18:48:08Z Posterdati: LiamH: thanks for the help
2015-12-02T18:48:17Z Posterdati: here too
2015-12-02T18:48:27Z LiamH: Posterdati: np, thanks for improving CFFI
2015-12-02T18:48:27Z Posterdati: on openbsd it worked ok
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2015-12-02T18:49:07Z LiamH: BTW, GSLL doesn't absolutely need cffi-libffi. Only for some complex number functions, and simulated annealing.
2015-12-02T18:49:09Z Posterdati: check passed
2015-12-02T18:49:14Z LiamH: yup
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2015-12-02T18:49:31Z Posterdati: seems ok now
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2015-12-02T18:49:54Z Posterdati: the test involved compiling something on a freebsd pc?
2015-12-02T18:50:49Z LiamH: doubtful
2015-12-02T18:51:02Z LiamH: Probably linux is all they test
2015-12-02T18:51:09Z Posterdati: so how can you really test it?
2015-12-02T18:51:14Z LiamH: You did!
2015-12-02T18:51:27Z Posterdati: :)
2015-12-02T18:51:52Z Posterdati: would be nice to have an automated test on freebsd/openbsd machine
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2015-12-02T18:52:07Z LiamH: Suggest that to github
2015-12-02T18:53:22Z Posterdati: aha
2015-12-02T18:53:27Z LiamH: For all I know they may already have one
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2015-12-02T18:55:06Z beach: jasom: That's the one!  Great stuff.
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2015-12-02T18:56:25Z sorressean: How do you do something conditionally based on the type? e.g: list/symbol/etc?
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2015-12-02T18:57:38Z synchromesh: sorressean: TYPECASE et al. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_tpcase.htm
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2015-12-02T18:58:57Z sorressean: ur. is there anything else?
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2015-12-02T18:59:54Z synchromesh: It's Lisp, anything else you get to make yourself. :)
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2015-12-02T19:00:19Z synchromesh: Can you be more specific about your requirements?
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2015-12-02T19:00:28Z sorressean: how? like how would you figure out the type without those?
2015-12-02T19:00:33Z sorressean: I only need symbol vs list.
2015-12-02T19:00:42Z synchromesh: Well, there's TYPE-OF
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2015-12-02T19:01:00Z synchromesh: and TYPEP.
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2015-12-02T19:01:15Z sorressean: awesome. that looks like what I need.
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2015-12-02T19:13:25Z Shinmera: jasom: Thanks!
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2015-12-02T19:31:49Z Xach:  /win 3
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2015-12-02T20:18:06Z jackdaniel: jasom: but that was exactly what he desired (infering from $0, $1 arguments)
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2015-12-02T20:20:15Z Akwok: do you guys believe in the herafter
2015-12-02T20:20:47Z Akwok: we need to wake up
2015-12-02T20:20:52Z Akwok: there is more in this life
2015-12-02T20:21:04Z Akwok: whe have to prepare for the day of judgment
2015-12-02T20:21:08Z Akwok:  where we will meet al allah
2015-12-02T20:21:11Z Akwok: this is import
2015-12-02T20:21:18Z Akwok: there is more  believe me
2015-12-02T20:21:40Z Akwok: sombody in here
2015-12-02T20:21:41Z Akwok: hello
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2015-12-02T20:26:01Z attila_lendvai: Akwok: the yehova's witnesses dropped by just a couple of minutes before you, and they stole all the minds susceptible... you'll have to come back in a few months (or alternatively you can keep your religion to privacy and friends).
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2015-12-02T20:26:22Z Akwok: my friend
2015-12-02T20:26:30Z Akwok: the islam is true
2015-12-02T20:26:32Z Akwok: i swear
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2015-12-02T20:26:41Z Akwok: what is in the koran
2015-12-02T20:26:42Z Fade: I am a Satanist.
2015-12-02T20:26:47Z Akwok: dont worry
2015-12-02T20:26:49Z dlowe: It's okay. I've already judged everyone.
2015-12-02T20:26:52Z synchromesh: Akwok: Yes, we're actually all just hidden Markov models in here.
2015-12-02T20:26:53Z Fade: you should come to my churge.
2015-12-02T20:26:57Z dlowe: The day of judgement is over.
2015-12-02T20:27:00Z Akwok: no no
2015-12-02T20:27:08Z Akwok: the people will come for there sins
2015-12-02T20:27:10Z Akwok: the dont stop
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2015-12-02T20:27:17Z dlowe: Akwok: look, this is off topic for this channel
2015-12-02T20:27:18Z Akwok: islam is easy like programming
2015-12-02T20:27:24Z Akwok: you have to know the basic of islam
2015-12-02T20:27:30Z attila_lendvai heads for the shovel, this troll seems hungry... :)
2015-12-02T20:27:31Z Akwok: before you can go to the other part
2015-12-02T20:27:33Z dlowe: Akwok: and you haven't done anything to deserve attention
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2015-12-02T20:27:42Z dim: then rewrite your book in common-lisp, meanwhile, you're off-topic
2015-12-02T20:27:45Z Akwok: you guys interup me constaly
2015-12-02T20:27:50Z Akwok: should lissen a while
2015-12-02T20:28:05Z Akwok: that i loop you over till you rich your place
2015-12-02T20:28:06Z H4ns: Akwok: you may now leave.
2015-12-02T20:28:08Z Akwok: i can make you happy
2015-12-02T20:28:10Z Fade: is there an op around?
2015-12-02T20:28:14Z synchromesh: Akwok: Sod off, please.
2015-12-02T20:28:14Z Akwok: hans
2015-12-02T20:28:17Z Akwok: relax hans
2015-12-02T20:28:21Z Akwok: alles onder controle
2015-12-02T20:28:39Z Akwok: sorry guys
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2015-12-02T20:28:52Z Akwok: difficult people
2015-12-02T20:28:53Z dlowe: You seem new here. You make yourself welcome in this place by talking about things that are both on-topic and helpful.
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2015-12-02T20:29:10Z Akwok: you guys need to learn how to talk
2015-12-02T20:29:15Z Akwok: with people
2015-12-02T20:29:20Z dlowe: You may be trying to be helpful, but you are not on-topic.
2015-12-02T20:29:24Z Akwok: it is a big problem to understand
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2015-12-02T20:29:37Z Akwok: you have to learn how to understand stuff
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2015-12-02T20:29:48Z Akwok: you can learn from people
2015-12-02T20:29:50Z warweasle: Akwok: w3 4R3 L33t H4X0r5!
2015-12-02T20:29:54Z dim: Akwok: it's simple, actually, either you're talking about Common Lisp and we might care, or you are not and we don't.
2015-12-02T20:29:58Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2015-12-02T20:30:00Z attila_lendvai: Akwok: look, you need to show basic respect, or you'll get kickbanned... it's this simple
2015-12-02T20:30:12Z Xach: first some housecleaning
2015-12-02T20:30:16Z warweasle: Lisp is my religion.
2015-12-02T20:30:16Z Akwok: yeah what can i say
2015-12-02T20:30:30Z Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*Adium@195.9.173.* *!*@*184.6.41.196 *!*@50-206-104-58-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net *!*@*.79.116.238.250
2015-12-02T20:30:33Z Akwok: you guys are top programmers
2015-12-02T20:30:33Z Xach has set mode -bb *!*@200.79.252.182 *!*b80601ea@*.184.6.1.234
2015-12-02T20:30:33Z Xach has set mode +b *!*Akwok@*.adsl2.static.versatel.nl
2015-12-02T20:30:41Z Akwok [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Akwok)
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2015-12-02T20:30:52Z dim: good riddance
2015-12-02T20:31:00Z Fade: thank you
2015-12-02T20:31:08Z dim: thx Xach indeed
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2015-12-02T20:48:22Z Posterdati: LiamH: I talked too early: http://paste.lisp.org/display/163616#3
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2015-12-02T21:24:25Z LiamH: Oh that's probably my fix
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2015-12-02T21:24:48Z LiamH: Looks like your implementation is ECL?
2015-12-02T21:30:50Z LiamH: Posterdati: made an issue https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/antik/antik/issues/2
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2015-12-02T21:38:14Z DeadTrickster: how to execute cleanup form of unwind-protect iff protected form returned normally?
2015-12-02T21:38:30Z DeadTrickster: I remember I saw something like :no-error or something like that
2015-12-02T21:38:58Z DeadTrickster: pjb,
2015-12-02T21:39:11Z sorressean: Anyone able to look at this for me? I'm not really sure why it's not working out the way I wanted. http://pastebin.com/25kqm6Uq
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2015-12-02T21:39:30Z pjb: unwind-protect always do it.
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2015-12-02T21:39:46Z pjb: (unwind-protect 42 (print 'hello)) #| hello  --> 42 |#
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2015-12-02T21:39:51Z DeadTrickster: pjb, iff i.e. if and only if
2015-12-02T21:39:54Z synchromesh: DeadTrickster: :no-error is HANDLER-CASE, I believe.
2015-12-02T21:39:59Z DeadTrickster: ah
2015-12-02T21:40:12Z pjb: (unwind-protect (progn 42 (print 'iff)) (print 'hello)) #| iff hello  --> iff |#
2015-12-02T21:40:36Z pjb: vs. (unwind-protect (progn (error "hi") (print 'iff)) (print 'hello)) #| hello ERROR: hi |#
2015-12-02T21:41:27Z DeadTrickster: I'm broken today lol
2015-12-02T21:41:40Z oGMo: yeah, if you want code to run only if there's not an error, you don't need anything special ;)
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2015-12-02T21:43:04Z DeadTrickster: I meant something like this: code performs non local transfer (including entering debugger, etc) and i such case I MUST do something
2015-12-02T21:43:19Z DeadTrickster: looks like flag might help
2015-12-02T21:43:26Z pjb: This is what unwind-protect does. But entering a debugging is not a non-local transfer.
2015-12-02T21:43:45Z pjb: Exiting from the debugger is.
2015-12-02T21:44:01Z pjb: unless the error is a continuable error and you exit with a continue restart.
2015-12-02T21:44:07Z DeadTrickster: oh
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2015-12-02T21:44:47Z sorressean: I'm new to lisp, so I'm just looking for some pointers as to where I'm going wrong.
2015-12-02T21:44:57Z DeadTrickster: (let ((flag)) (unwind-protect (progn ... (setf flag t)) (unless flag ...)))
2015-12-02T21:45:07Z pjb: (block hi (unwind-protect (return-from hi nil) (print 'hi))) #| hi  --> nil |#
2015-12-02T21:45:50Z pjb: If you don't want to clean up then yes, but then, why do you have a unwind-protect?
2015-12-02T21:45:59Z pjb: (progn … …) will do the same.
2015-12-02T21:46:07Z synchromesh: sorressean: Have you checked out Peter Seibel's book Practical Common Lisp? It's a must-read. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2015-12-02T21:46:14Z Posterdati: LiamH: in antik there's something like  (member t)  in the code!
2015-12-02T21:46:17Z DeadTrickster: trying to implement poor man's transactions for mongodb ) all-or-nothing
2015-12-02T21:46:26Z pjb: (block hi (progn (if (zerop (random 2)) (return-from hi nil))  (print 'clean-up))) #| --> nil |#
2015-12-02T21:46:39Z pjb: or: (block hi (progn (if (zerop (random 2)) (return-from hi nil))  (print 'clean-up))) #| clean-up  --> clean-up |#
2015-12-02T21:46:48Z sorressean: synchromesh:  I haven't.
2015-12-02T21:47:27Z synchromesh: sorressean: It's all available for free at that link.
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2015-12-02T21:47:50Z DeadTrickster: PCL is ten years old sadly
2015-12-02T21:48:02Z sorressean: awesome. I'll look later. I want to solve this.
2015-12-02T21:48:12Z sorressean: I have the basics already anyway.
2015-12-02T21:48:20Z synchromesh: sorressean: Another excellent free on-line book is Paul Graham's On Lisp. http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html
2015-12-02T21:48:35Z DeadTrickster: But I remember when it came out. PRACTICAL CL, seriously )
2015-12-02T21:48:42Z oGMo: DeadTrickster: and CL is like 21 years old, hasn't changed much ;)
2015-12-02T21:48:46Z pjb: DeadTrickster: indeed, too bad it wasn't written 30 years ago.
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2015-12-02T21:48:56Z DeadTrickster: oGMo, sadly yes
2015-12-02T21:49:01Z oGMo: not sadly
2015-12-02T21:49:05Z DeadTrickster: ha-ha
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2015-12-02T21:49:23Z sorressean: synchromesh:  thanks. I'll bookmark that as well.
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2015-12-02T21:49:34Z pjb: With a time machine, you could take all the lisp book back in 1960 and crunch all those other programming languages.
2015-12-02T21:49:48Z sorressean: I have a good understanding, I just need to learn by doing stuff (which I'm trying to do here).
2015-12-02T21:49:55Z LiamH: Posterdati: ?
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2015-12-02T21:50:50Z synchromesh: pjb: In the 60's Lisp was already crunching all the other languages... It was the hardware that had to evolve sufficiently. IMHO.
2015-12-02T21:50:59Z oGMo: erm.. that
2015-12-02T21:51:30Z pjb: synchromesh: well, already if the funarg problem had been resolved in 1960 instead of 1970, we'd avoided scheme.
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2015-12-02T21:51:35Z Posterdati: LiamH: antik-master-b6c0fc62-git/physical-quantities/format-output.lisp:44
2015-12-02T21:51:46Z pjb: that would also have helped with functional programming languages.
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2015-12-02T21:51:48Z sorressean: so I'd appreciate any pointers as to where I'm going wrong.
2015-12-02T21:52:07Z Posterdati: LiamH: antik-master-b6c0fc62-git/physical-quantities/format-output.lisp:43
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2015-12-02T21:52:29Z sorressean: I think I'm handling the case where the value exists in the specific cell wrongly.
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2015-12-02T21:53:51Z LiamH: Posterdati: I'm about to release a new version of Antik, it is available now in the "documentation" branch. Give that a try. You will need the antik-multiple-systems branch of GSLL.
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2015-12-02T21:58:17Z sorressean: hrm. I think it's because I'm not appending anything.
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2015-12-02T22:00:22Z sorressean: I wonder if appending a nil would work in that case. so it wouldn't break the chin.an
2015-12-02T22:01:21Z sorressean: meh. guess not, still the same bt.
2015-12-02T22:02:53Z sorressean: I'm at a dead-end. is there a better place I should be asking for help?
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2015-12-02T22:03:44Z synchromesh: sorressean: You need to be accumulating your result as you work your way through the list. I'm just debugging my example for you...
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2015-12-02T22:04:17Z sorressean: synchromesh:  that's what I was working on. I append in the other case, but I don't know how to handle the case where you just need to skip.hne
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2015-12-02T22:07:44Z synchromesh: sorressean: Here's my version: http://paste.lisp.org/+3IE2
2015-12-02T22:09:34Z sorressean: ur. what's the a for?
2015-12-02T22:09:44Z sorressean: oh. I see.
2015-12-02T22:10:03Z synchromesh: sorressean: That's "a" for "accumulator".
2015-12-02T22:10:19Z sorressean: synchromesh:  thanks. that makes a lot of sense.
2015-12-02T22:11:17Z synchromesh: sorressean: No problem, once you've read through those two books (and they're both really great reads) it'll seem more natural.
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2015-12-02T22:12:01Z sorressean: synchromesh:  awesome, thanks. I really should do that. I never learn well by reading, but it would probably help more in this case to see examples and ideas.
2015-12-02T22:13:53Z synchromesh: sorressean: PCL walks you through all the nuts & bolts and explains what they're for, while On Lisp is more how to think in The Lisp Way, which you need in order to use the language the way it's intended.
2015-12-02T22:14:23Z synchromesh: sorressean: And as I say, much better written than you might expect. :)
2015-12-02T22:14:48Z sorressean: awesome. thanks. Yeah, wrapping your head around a new peradigm is a mess
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2015-12-02T22:17:10Z hellekin: go constantinexvi
2015-12-02T22:17:14Z hellekin: oops
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2015-12-02T22:51:28Z hoogabooga: anyone hiring junior lisp dev around boston? no java or clojure?
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2015-12-02T22:57:22Z hoogabooga: zomg java  the paiiiin the paiiiiiiiiiiinnnnn
2015-12-02T22:57:27Z fe[nl]ix: hoogabooga: you can try to apply to Google
2015-12-02T22:57:42Z hoogabooga: the mother suggests the duke's son is human
2015-12-02T22:58:01Z hoogabooga: a bene gessetite witch
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2015-12-02T22:58:43Z fe[nl]ix: hoogabooga: that's off-topic
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2015-12-02T22:59:26Z hoogabooga: ok
2015-12-02T22:59:43Z hoogabooga: lets talk lisp web apps that dont use a sql db
2015-12-02T22:59:49Z hoogabooga: ideally just files
2015-12-02T22:59:59Z hoogabooga: how much more simpler is such a setup?
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2015-12-02T23:00:16Z synchromesh: hoogabooga: Nice swerve. I used Rucksack quite successfully in a commercial Lisp app.
2015-12-02T23:00:36Z synchromesh: s/used/am using/
2015-12-02T23:01:54Z hoogabooga: I dream after reading cat-v.org of a file server, pehaps freebsd with zfs mirrors in raid 10, and the simply appsrvers that nfs mount it and run
2015-12-02T23:02:00Z hoogabooga: maybe running werc and rc
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2015-12-02T23:02:08Z hoogabooga: and all i do is add appservers if load goes up
2015-12-02T23:02:13Z hoogabooga: backup with rsync
2015-12-02T23:02:29Z hoogabooga: just insane simplicity vs devltry i deal with at work
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2015-12-02T23:06:12Z hoogabooga: get a few 100 users hitting that rucksak?
2015-12-02T23:07:48Z synchromesh: TBH it's just an intranet app so there's not that much concurrent access.
2015-12-02T23:09:41Z synchromesh: Still a fair bit of traffic, though. Had some issues with garbage collection but reliability-wise it was pretty great. I got to thank Arthur Lemmens personally at the ECLS earlier this year. :)
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2015-12-03T00:36:04Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/franzinc/imap <- is that portable at all?
2015-12-03T00:36:16Z phoe_krk: Or found in the QL?
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2015-12-03T00:37:19Z Xach_: that was very gavinoesque
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2015-12-03T01:12:22Z sorressean: Anyone able to look at this? I'm testing out a bst structure. I keep getting errors because for some reason the code is using (< nil...) http://pastebin.com/Yyxiw3WT
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2015-12-03T01:17:01Z Bicyclidine: your indentation is messed up, you don't put closing parens on new lines like that
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2015-12-03T01:18:06Z Bicyclidine: you mean tree-insert, right? this is pretty strange
2015-12-03T01:18:50Z Bicyclidine: you have three statements. the first is the if null, which just returns a value and is therefore discarded, then you have a print, then you have an if
2015-12-03T01:19:11Z Bicyclidine: so if you pass nil as v it'll hit the third if and do (< nil e)
2015-12-03T01:19:26Z Bicyclidine: i don't know what you wanted to do but i doubt it was that
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2015-12-03T01:26:13Z sorressean: Bicyclidine:  I'm sorry, I'm totally blind and using a screen reader. I don't know what the proper indentation style is, but this makes all the parens easy to track.
2015-12-03T01:27:04Z sorressean: Bicyclidine:  The first if statement should check to see if v (the tree) is null. If so, it just creates a new tree. so you could do like (tree-insert 32) and it would return (32 nil nil).
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2015-12-03T01:27:15Z Bicyclidine: Right. BUt then that new tree goes nowhere.
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2015-12-03T01:28:03Z sorressean: It wouldn't if you only insert one value. it would be passed back. it should be returned though.
2015-12-03T01:28:03Z Bicyclidine: You have three statements, the first one is (if (null v) (tree-make-node e nil nil)). That statement is just an expression, it has no side effects, so it does nothing. You could take it out of the function and the function would have exactly the same effect.
2015-12-03T01:28:11Z Bicyclidine: Yeah it's not returned.
2015-12-03T01:29:47Z Bicyclidine: you might have meant (if (null v) (tree-make-node e nil nil) (if (< (tree-node-value v) e) ...)), which makes the second if only execute if the first condition (null v) is false.
2015-12-03T01:30:25Z Bicyclidine: so your parens are not closing over the right things, so to speak.
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2015-12-03T01:31:31Z sorressean: ah. okay, I see that now.
2015-12-03T01:32:01Z namespace: Is apply a macro?
2015-12-03T01:32:29Z sorressean: Even after updating that I get the same sort of error.
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2015-12-03T01:33:40Z sorressean: It was returning trees before because (print v) gave me (6 nil nil). now I get the same, but the next is (nil) which is a bit of an issue.l
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2015-12-03T01:36:25Z sorressean: http://pastebin.com/JYV2nwYa <-- updated code in a few places.
2015-12-03T01:36:39Z sorressean: end up with the same warnings though.eh
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2015-12-03T01:36:51Z sorressean: well, error rather.
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2015-12-03T01:39:27Z sorressean: ah. I see the issue.
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2015-12-03T01:41:00Z sorressean: Although I'm not really sure how to fix it. (tree-right-branch) can return nil, so if you do (tree-insert 32 (tree-right branch v) ... ) and it's nil, that will mean v is nil.
2015-12-03T01:42:11Z sorressean: I'm getting '(nil) though for some reason.
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2015-12-03T01:47:33Z sorressean: yeah. so that's the issue. at some point (nil) is returned and I'm not sure why. I think that's where I need help if someone wouldn't mind.
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2015-12-03T02:11:09Z pjb: sorressean: that's where you need to introduce some types.
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2015-12-03T02:12:14Z pjb: tree-right-branch can return nil, so it's type is T.  But what is the type of tree-insert?  Does it take a T as second argument?
2015-12-03T02:17:07Z jasom: speaking of binary trees; am I right that the number of leaf nodes in a binary tree is always equal to the number of interior nodes plus 1?
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2015-12-03T02:18:40Z jasom: By induction that seems correct, since when you insert a node, you add an interior node for which one child is a leaf node and the other child is whatever it is replacing in the tree
2015-12-03T02:19:07Z jasom: so every time you add an interior node you net one more leaf node
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2015-12-03T02:25:20Z drmeister: What does preserving-whitespace mean in READ-PRESERVING-WHITESPACE?
2015-12-03T02:25:41Z jasom: drmeister: when (read) normally finishes, it will consume all whitespace after the item read
2015-12-03T02:25:50Z jasom: read-preserving-whitespace will not consume that whitespace
2015-12-03T02:26:16Z pjb: (with-input-from-string (in "hello ")  (values (read-preserving-whitespace in) (read-char in))) #| --> hello ; #\  |#
2015-12-03T02:26:25Z pjb: (with-input-from-string (in "hello ")  (values (read in) (read-char in nil nil))) #| --> hello ; nil |#
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2015-12-03T02:26:46Z n2kra_: think I used it in a parser of another language
2015-12-03T02:27:50Z jasom: drmeister: slight correction, not all whitespace, but a single whitespace character
2015-12-03T02:28:00Z pjb: jasom: not all: (with-input-from-string (in "hello     ")  (values (read in) (read-char in nil nil))) #| --> hello ; #\  |#
2015-12-03T02:28:26Z pjb: drmeister: it may also matter if the whitespace is a newline.
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2015-12-03T02:30:13Z drmeister: I see - thank you
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2015-12-03T03:01:48Z Bike: I still don't understand ASDF's rules for finding things. I have a symlink called 'sandalphon.types' in quicklisp/local-projects, that goes to a folder containing sandalphon.types.asd, which defines the sandalphon.types system. and asdf can't find it. what am i missing, here.
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2015-12-03T03:04:59Z jasom: Bike: ccl or sbcl?
2015-12-03T03:05:07Z pjb: asdf:*central-registry* is quite simple to understand.
2015-12-03T03:05:43Z Bike: sbcl
2015-12-03T03:05:51Z pjb: Perhaps you need a   (ql:register-local-projects) ?
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2015-12-03T03:06:12Z Bike: doesn't help
2015-12-03T03:10:42Z Bike: doesn't work in ccl either.
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2015-12-03T03:22:48Z earl-ducaine: pjb: sadly, asdf:*centralregistry* is also depreciated.
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2015-12-03T03:23:18Z Bike: asdf's replacements are friggin bizarre so i don't mind that, but having a push in my whateverrc is kinda grody
2015-12-03T03:24:01Z pillton: Bike: I think a directory needs to be marked as a tree in order for ASDF to recurse in to subdirectories.
2015-12-03T03:24:19Z pillton: Bike: Section 4.1 of the ASDF documentation.
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2015-12-03T03:26:58Z pjb: earl-ducaine: I'm too dumb to understand the other, I only use asdf:*central-registry* or let quicklisp deal with it.
2015-12-03T03:27:20Z Bike: i put a :tree for quicklisp/local-projects and it still doesn't work. friggin a
2015-12-03T03:27:40Z pillton: Did you invoke (asdf:clear-source-registry)?
2015-12-03T03:27:49Z Bike: i restarted the lisp
2015-12-03T03:28:04Z Bike: doesn't work with that either
2015-12-03T03:28:17Z Bike: my system has achieved invisibility.
2015-12-03T03:28:24Z earl-ducaine: pjb: same here.  I've read the asdf manual from cover to cover, and reread the section related to where it finds sources multiple times and it's still totally opaque to me...
2015-12-03T03:28:43Z earl-ducaine: Something about it gives me a total mental block.
2015-12-03T03:29:00Z pillton: Did you put (:tree (:home "quicklisp/local-projects/")) ? including the trailing '/'?
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2015-12-03T03:29:54Z pillton: Actually the trailing '/' isn't important after looking at my configuration.
2015-12-03T03:30:15Z Bike: i did (:tree "/home/me/quicklisp/local-projects/")
2015-12-03T03:30:24Z Bike: maybe dots in the filename fuck it up? i'm at a loss.
2015-12-03T03:30:43Z Bike: central registry it is...
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2015-12-03T03:43:26Z pjb: Bike: also, check that your asd is without error.
2015-12-03T03:43:38Z Bike: well, it loads once it's in the registry.
2015-12-03T03:44:02Z pjb: ok
2015-12-03T03:48:31Z loke: Bike: Did you delete the .txt file in quicklisp/local-projects?
2015-12-03T03:48:46Z Bike: system-index? no, it's there
2015-12-03T03:48:52Z loke: Bike: Delete it
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2015-12-03T03:48:59Z loke: then restart and try ql again
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2015-12-03T03:50:18Z Bike: still no. the generated file doesn't have this system in it
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2015-12-03T03:52:15Z loke: Bike: where is the .asd file located?
2015-12-03T03:52:40Z Bike: in the sandalphon.types directory.
2015-12-03T03:52:49Z loke: And what are the filenames? And is your tree available somehwere (github?) where I can look at it/
2015-12-03T03:52:50Z loke: ?
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2015-12-03T03:53:34Z Bike: i'm cleaning it up before i put it online. but i mean, there is no tree. the system has one directory with the asd and the sources, and this is the directory symlinked in local-projects.
2015-12-03T03:54:00Z loke: Bike and can I see the asd?
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2015-12-03T03:55:18Z Bike: if you want. nothing exciting. http://paste.lisp.org/+3IJA
2015-12-03T03:57:07Z loke: Hmm, seems simple enough
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2015-12-03T04:38:21Z Bike: i have a print-object method for a superclass, which uses a gf. if the user forgot to define a method on that gf, would you expect an error, or a default to print?
2015-12-03T04:39:09Z Bike: i ask because what happens when i don't think about it is that print-object calls the gf on the object, which calls no-applicable-method, which signals an error that tries to print the object, which results in a hard to understand error message, and i'm definitely getting rid of that.
2015-12-03T04:41:02Z Bike: relatedly, you know what no-applicable-method signals isn't specified closer than 'error'? sucks, imo
2015-12-03T04:48:55Z smokeink: hello, i think i've found a bug in asdf uiop's (command-line-arguments) : http://pastecode.ru/1cdcd/
2015-12-03T04:49:35Z pillton: Bike: What about having the print-object method handle the no-applicable-method signal?
2015-12-03T04:50:10Z Bike: handling it could be either one of the things i said
2015-12-03T04:50:29Z Bike: smokeink: argv[0] is the program name, no?
2015-12-03T04:51:49Z pillton: Bike: I would expect a default to be printed.
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2015-12-03T04:53:54Z pillton: The only error I would be prepared to accept with print-object is "Unable to print (stream closed)".
2015-12-03T04:55:24Z Bike: hrm. i'd rather signal an error, but it's easy to change either way
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2015-12-03T04:58:16Z pjb: A little trick: (defgeneric gf (x) (:method (x) :default-method))
2015-12-03T04:58:36Z pjb: So you don't get no-applicable-method. So you don't have such problems.
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2015-12-03T04:59:12Z Bike: yeah, but in this case i don't think a default method makes sense.
2015-12-03T04:59:23Z pjb: What does this gf do?
2015-12-03T04:59:47Z Bike: it takes an object and returns a sexp that could have been parsed to produce the object.
2015-12-03T05:01:52Z pjb: (defgeneric gf (x) (:method (x) (error "Missing a ~S method for ~S" 'gf (class-name (class-of x))))) ;then
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2015-12-03T05:02:18Z Bike: that is pretty much what i did, though with a method on no-applicable-method.
2015-12-03T05:02:24Z Bike: though i forgot class-name. should do that.
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2015-12-03T05:08:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-12-03T05:12:10Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-12-03T05:13:39Z smokeink: Bike: argv[0] is the program name yes . The problem is that (uiop:command-line-arguments) returns NIL
2015-12-03T05:14:04Z Bike: oh, i misunderstood. sorry.
2015-12-03T05:14:42Z smokeink: (uiop:raw-command-line-arguments) works fine, while (uiop:command-line-arguments) doesn't . (command-line-arguments) should return '(argv[1],argv[2],...,argv[argc-1])
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2015-12-03T05:15:50Z smokeink: this bug might have to do with the binary being compiled or something
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2015-12-03T05:18:32Z smokeink: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/78aaa8fc0e537a1493836019ee709842ae07ccd5/uiop/image.lisp#L238 this is the function
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2015-12-03T05:20:41Z smokeink: hmm i got it, it wants -- as a parameter
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2015-12-03T05:22:31Z smokeink: but that means it doesn't recognize the binary as compiled . -- should be used only for non-standalone executables
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2015-12-03T05:36:32Z smokeink: this fixes it: http://pastecode.ru/f10c5/
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2015-12-03T06:02:25Z drmeister: Hi everybody.
2015-12-03T06:03:47Z drmeister: Hi beach - how is the source level debugging conversion going?   A couple of weeks ago you said you were doing a bit every day.
2015-12-03T06:05:35Z beach: I am still doing a bit every day.  I am also working on the representation of the environment in order to make it iterative and faster.
2015-12-03T06:06:06Z beach: Both those tasks are pretty boring, so I am amusing myself with other things in parallel.
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2015-12-03T06:11:34Z drmeister: What's the amusing stuff?
2015-12-03T06:12:12Z beach: Unrelated to SICL and Cleavir.  I am extracting the buffer code from Second Climacs into an independent library.
2015-12-03T06:13:14Z drmeister: I'm cleaning up code.
2015-12-03T06:13:25Z beach: Good!
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2015-12-03T06:17:18Z beach: The environment code is especially boring because it is code that works, and the only reason I am working on it is to improve performance in Clasp where it takes too much stack and where the generic dispatch makes it slow.
2015-12-03T06:17:35Z smokeink: this is my final workaround for the ecl uiop arguments problem above http://pastecode.ru/d3c1e/
2015-12-03T06:18:22Z drmeister: beach: Should I pull the latest sicl?
2015-12-03T06:19:00Z beach: Nah, wait until you have a more stable situation.
2015-12-03T06:19:08Z beach: There is no new functionality for you.
2015-12-03T06:19:44Z drmeister: I'm going to make about 1500 C++ functions and class methods accessible using M-.
2015-12-03T06:20:30Z drmeister: That should lower the barrier to working with the C++ code when it's at our fingertips.
2015-12-03T06:20:54Z beach: I believe you.
2015-12-03T06:21:00Z drmeister: I'll rename many of the functions <package>_<name_with_underscores>  following the ECL convention.
2015-12-03T06:22:29Z drmeister: The new scraper I wrote using SBCL is working well.   SAL9000 had a great suggestion to run all of the source code through the C++ preprocessor - that greatly simplified parsing.
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2015-12-03T06:23:05Z drmeister: It's been a huge job though integrating its output with the Clasp code.
2015-12-03T06:24:56Z beach: You work too hard, it seems.
2015-12-03T06:25:34Z drmeister: I had this code that translated C++ variable names into Common Lisp symbols written in Python that I didn't want to rewrite in Common Lisp because I already have it written in C++ in Clasp.   So I pass them raw to Clasp now.  It took a while to track down errant symbols.
2015-12-03T06:25:54Z drmeister: It's a big job and C++ isn't forgiving.
2015-12-03T06:26:09Z drmeister: She be a harsh mistress.
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2015-12-03T06:28:39Z beach: I am not into hard work.  I try to use computers to do much of the work for me so that I don't have to.
2015-12-03T06:30:36Z drmeister: The "hard" part comes when I introduce subtle bugs that I have to spend hours tracking down.   It's easier to write fresh code than to change old code.  That's what I do a lot of these days.
2015-12-03T06:31:18Z drmeister: The "holy crap" I broke something and I don't know what.  Especially when it shows up only an hour into a build.
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2015-12-03T06:31:56Z beach: drmeister: Sorry, I need to go.  Talk later.
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2015-12-03T07:30:31Z jackdaniel: dum dum, good morning :)
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2015-12-03T07:39:34Z loke: drmeister: Does it compile with latest llvm now? :-)
2015-12-03T07:39:43Z Shinmera: loke: No
2015-12-03T07:40:02Z loke: OK. thanks
2015-12-03T07:40:02Z Shinmera: loke: I prepped him an Arch VM though, so hopefully he can dig in and debug that sometime soon.
2015-12-03T07:40:47Z Shinmera: Probably will be a bit though until the current code cleanup effort is done.
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2015-12-03T09:26:55Z smokeink: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/34062166/how-to-distribute-the-asdf-quicklisp-dependencies-along-with-an-app-compiled-wit
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2015-12-03T09:27:37Z Shinmera: smokeink: You'll want to look at Quicklisp bundles, I suppose.
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2015-12-03T09:31:57Z jackdaniel: smokeink: did you require the asdf?
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2015-12-03T09:32:41Z jackdaniel: (require 'asdf) (in-package "ASDF/DRIVER") works fine
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2015-12-03T09:32:43Z jackdaniel: here
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2015-12-03T09:33:04Z jackdaniel: inferior-shell requires some other stuff, like alexandria, so abovementioned bundles are the best shoot I suppose
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2015-12-03T10:02:30Z smokeink: jackdaniel: (require 'asdf) (in-package :asdf/driver) works fine here too , but try to add a dependency in example.asd then -load this https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/develop/examples/asdf/readme.lisp then run ./example and you'll get that error
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2015-12-03T10:03:08Z smokeink: my situation is that i want to distribute a simple script as an exe, to be executed on windows
2015-12-03T10:04:07Z smokeink: i am very new to ecl i don't know what i should distribute along with it or how to deploy it
2015-12-03T10:06:08Z norfumpit: guise, whats my malfunction here - http://paste.lisp.org/display/164206 - what i get is (length *power-commands*) definitions of a command named power-command
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2015-12-03T10:06:40Z jackdaniel: smokeink: have you read the ecl manual? there is some info. I'm quite busy right now, but tomorrow I'll have some and we can hack on it tomorrow if you want to
2015-12-03T10:06:49Z jackdaniel: (if you won't solve it today obv)
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2015-12-03T10:13:34Z jackdaniel: smokeink: btw, what do you load? it works fine for me (adding inferior-shell)
2015-12-03T10:13:43Z jackdaniel: I do ecl -load readme.lisp
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2015-12-03T10:14:27Z jackdaniel: and it builds just fine (I load quicklisp in my .eclrc fwiw, so all the dependencies are in place)
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2015-12-03T10:25:13Z smokeink: jackdaniel: it builds successfully but when i run the resulting executable it gives that error
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2015-12-03T10:25:35Z smokeink: i also have quicklisp in .eclrc
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2015-12-03T10:28:41Z smokeink: i also do ecl -load readme.lisp
2015-12-03T10:30:00Z smokeink: jackdaniel: so you can run the resulted executable?
2015-12-03T10:30:15Z jackdaniel: ./example
2015-12-03T10:30:19Z jackdaniel: but I have the same problem
2015-12-03T10:30:32Z jackdaniel: I'll investigate it tomorrow, it might be a bug actually
2015-12-03T10:30:43Z jackdaniel: could you file an issue on gitlab ?
2015-12-03T10:33:23Z jackdaniel: not sure if it's not asdf bug though. anyway as a workaround you may add in the readme.lisp when building the standalone executable
2015-12-03T10:33:37Z jackdaniel: (asdf:make-build :example :type :program :prologue-code '(require 'asdf) :epilogue-code '(ext:quit 0) :move-here "./")
2015-12-03T10:33:43Z jackdaniel: note the prologue-code
2015-12-03T10:33:48Z jackdaniel: then ./example works just fine
2015-12-03T10:34:11Z jackdaniel: smokeink: ↑
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2015-12-03T10:34:48Z smokeink: ok :)
2015-12-03T10:35:24Z smokeink: if all the asdf dependencies are compiled in the exe and i don't have to manually distribute them then that's really neat
2015-12-03T10:35:37Z jackdaniel: indeed :)
2015-12-03T10:36:03Z jackdaniel: I have a stalled work on the cross compilation
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2015-12-03T10:37:51Z smokeink: and btw https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/78aaa8fc0e537a1493836019ee709842ae07ccd5/bundle.lisp#L331 somebody marked the function as deprecated
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2015-12-03T10:39:39Z jackdaniel: yes, I've talked with RG and Fare about that. They're not sure to keep it, but if it'll be marked as obsolete I'll return to the asdf-ecl separate version
2015-12-03T10:40:53Z smokeink: why not keep it, what's wrong with it? maybe it'll be used by clasp as well
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2015-12-03T10:42:34Z jackdaniel: here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1493031
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2015-12-03T10:44:10Z jackdaniel: regarding fancy C++ stuff: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/195
2015-12-03T10:45:08Z jackdaniel: smokeink: could you file a bug on gitlab regarding the asdf?
2015-12-03T10:47:33Z smokeink: yes sure
2015-12-03T10:47:38Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-12-03T10:51:52Z smokeink: just made a gitlab account, where is the add issue button ? https://gitlab.com/groups/embeddable-common-lisp/issues
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2015-12-03T10:52:54Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/groups/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues
2015-12-03T10:53:00Z jackdaniel: add ecl/ (embed… is a group)
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2015-12-03T13:55:33Z splittist: If I could just win 1 I would be happy. 3 seems like a tough ask.
2015-12-03T13:56:21Z flip214: at least 3 out of 30 coin throws? easy.
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2015-12-03T16:50:01Z mrSpec: Hi! I've noticed that slime-who-calls doesnt work in CCL, when function is called inside method. Has anyone else noticed this? Can explain why? I created small testcase: http://lisp.pl/upload/test.tar.gz to reproduce: (ql:quickload :test) (in-package :test) M-x slime-who-calls test
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2015-12-03T16:51:43Z mrSpec: However sometimes it seems to work e.g. when I remove .cache and load test for the first time.
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2015-12-03T17:14:22Z ukari_: shimera, it seems that symbol-function can make (setf (symbol-function 'g) closure) return a function in lisp-2
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2015-12-03T17:20:35Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-12-03T17:24:04Z beach: ukari_: [I am reading the logs] What is it that you are trying to do with SYMBOL-FUNCTION, etc?
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2015-12-03T17:26:54Z ukari_: beach: few days ago, i talk with shinmera about “in lisp, variables name and functions name won't conflict even when they spells same”
2015-12-03T17:27:38Z beach: Right, we say that they are in different "namespaces".
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2015-12-03T17:30:28Z ukari_: lisp-1 and lisp-2,which one is better
2015-12-03T17:30:49Z Shinmera: The one you like.
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2015-12-03T17:31:07Z beach: Oh dear.  You are in an IRC dedicated to the Common Lisp language which is not a lisp-1, so you won't get an unbiased opinion here.
2015-12-03T17:31:28Z Shinmera: Obviously though, lisp-2 is better because higher numbers are better :)
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2015-12-03T17:32:05Z mtl_: I kinda wish CL was a lisp-1
2015-12-03T17:32:10Z Shinmera: I don't.
2015-12-03T17:32:23Z mtl_: but oh well, not really a big deal, just have to use funcall occasionally
2015-12-03T17:33:39Z beach: Here is my favorite Common Lisp pun (from McCLIM): (defmethod graft ((graft graft)) graft)
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2015-12-03T17:34:04Z ukari_: i think funcall is not beauty if i treated lisp as a FP like erlang
2015-12-03T17:34:07Z Shinmera: beach: I would also hate to miss beautiful bits of poetry from my code like (let ((location (location location))) ..)
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2015-12-03T17:34:23Z beach: Nice one, too!
2015-12-03T17:34:52Z beach: ukari_: Again, this is a channel dedicated to Common Lisp.
2015-12-03T17:35:43Z ukari_ sorry
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2015-12-03T17:38:05Z switchp0rt: I am new to lisps and currently using sbcl. I am looking for a good build/dependency manager, something like sbt/leiningen/cabal for managing a lisp project. any recommendations?
2015-12-03T17:38:39Z Shinmera: switchp0rt: ASDF is the standard for project building and Quicklisp the standard for library distribution.
2015-12-03T17:38:42Z beach: switchp0rt: I don't know what those do, but the "standard" for building things is ASDF.
2015-12-03T17:38:44Z shka: switchp0rt: quicklisp + asdf
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2015-12-03T17:39:04Z Shinmera: switchp0rt: See http://reader.tymoon.eu/article/267 for an introduction.
2015-12-03T17:39:26Z beach: switchp0rt: Also, it is best to install SLIME using Quicklisp.
2015-12-03T17:39:34Z switchp0rt: is there a build file that handles all the installation of dependencies?
2015-12-03T17:39:38Z beach: [since you are not yet using those tools]
2015-12-03T17:39:51Z switchp0rt: beach: i am using slime install via spacemacs, seems to work okay
2015-12-03T17:40:10Z switchp0rt: Shinmera thanks, i am checking that out now
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2015-12-03T17:40:35Z beach: switchp0rt: You need to distinguish between build and install.  ASDF builds, Quicklisp installs.
2015-12-03T17:41:12Z switchp0rt: beach okay, is there a configuration file that handles all of that? ie, asdf install, asdf build, asdf test, etc..
2015-12-03T17:41:28Z switchp0rt: beach or am I thinking about it all wrong
2015-12-03T17:41:42Z beach: switchp0rt: The .asd file is what controls dependencies, both on other systems and between files.
2015-12-03T17:41:53Z switchp0rt: beach great! thank you
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2015-12-03T17:42:06Z beach: But it won't automatically call Quicklisp for installation of missing systems.
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2015-12-03T17:51:29Z jdz: but quicklisp will consult ASDF to install dependencies of a system
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2015-12-03T18:02:54Z mordocai: cgore: Hello stranger.
2015-12-03T18:03:02Z cgore: yo
2015-12-03T18:03:40Z cgore: I'm trying out a new IRC client instead of ERC in Emacs.
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2015-12-03T18:40:37Z dim: did you try rcirc (in Emacs too)?
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2015-12-03T18:41:53Z cgore: Never used that one.
2015-12-03T18:42:03Z cgore: I'm using Textual.
2015-12-03T18:42:25Z cgore: Seems okay.
2015-12-03T18:42:56Z cgore: How's rcirc compare to ERC?
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2015-12-03T18:45:25Z dim: simpler, batteries not included, just works
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2015-12-03T18:45:55Z dim: well I've never used ERC myself, spent time setting up rcirc and that's all I've been using for a very long time now
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2015-12-03T18:47:24Z cgore: Cool, I might give it a shot sometime.
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2015-12-03T18:47:34Z cgore: Sometimes it's nice to have IRC in the editor.
2015-12-03T18:47:44Z cgore: Especially for copying code back and forth.
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2015-12-03T18:51:55Z pjb:  /msg - pjb
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2015-12-04T03:07:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-04T03:08:40Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-12-04T03:11:53Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach :)
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2015-12-04T03:12:47Z beach: Suppose we had a Common Lisp reader in which the states and the call stack are reified.  We could turn such a reader into an incremental one.
2015-12-04T03:12:51Z beach: On (say) a line-by-line basis, it would be possible to store the state+stack at the beginning and at the end of the line.
2015-12-04T03:12:53Z beach: In almost all cases, it would be possible to derive the complete parse tree of an entire editor buffer incrementally at a very little cost as the contents of the buffer changes.
2015-12-04T03:13:54Z beach: Such a parser would have a much better idea of what is in a buffer of Common Lisp code than any of the techniques currently used.
2015-12-04T03:15:30Z nyef: Isn't that a good chunk of the CLIM input editor infrastructure?
2015-12-04T03:15:47Z nyef: Or isomorphic to it, at least?
2015-12-04T03:16:12Z fe[nl]ix: I don't see how it could have a better understanding of the code
2015-12-04T03:16:33Z beach: I think the CLIM input editor is much simpler.  It just re-parses everything starting at the point where modifications begin.
2015-12-04T03:16:51Z fe[nl]ix: it would be faster for an editor, which is still very useful
2015-12-04T03:17:20Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Right, no better than an existing reader.  But that is typically not how an editor buffer is analyzed today.
2015-12-04T03:18:15Z beach: nyef: I am thinking that modifications to a line in the middle of the buffer would not require re-parsing the rest.  Once could "patch" the state+stack at the beginning of each line according to changes.
2015-12-04T03:18:17Z fe[nl]ix: that's true
2015-12-04T03:20:31Z fe[nl]ix: beach: as long as that modification doesn't change the meaning of the following lines
2015-12-04T03:20:43Z beach: Right.
2015-12-04T03:20:49Z fe[nl]ix: but you could handle the few special cases
2015-12-04T03:20:57Z beach: Exactly.
2015-12-04T03:21:22Z beach: Occasionally, the entire meaning will change, and then the user will probably expect a little more time for the parser to catch up.
2015-12-04T03:22:35Z beach: But even when (say) a single `(' is inserted, the change from one line to the next can often be expressed as a modification to the stack between two lines.
2015-12-04T03:22:44Z beach: No need to re-parse the lines themselves.
2015-12-04T03:23:00Z beach: So even a fairly large buffer would be fast to analyze.
2015-12-04T03:23:22Z nyef: Even better if you have paredit-style structure editing.
2015-12-04T03:23:32Z beach: Yes, definitely.
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2015-12-04T03:26:16Z drmeister: Hello.
2015-12-04T03:26:27Z npatrick04: Hi
2015-12-04T03:26:41Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-12-04T03:26:44Z beach: Hello npatrick04.
2015-12-04T03:27:28Z beach: I think writing a reader with reified state and stack won't be too hard.
2015-12-04T03:27:32Z drmeister: Does anyone have strong feelings about changing clasp's directory hierarchy from things like:     clasp/src/core     to clasp/src/clasp/core    this is in the same spirit as the include directory that is:    clasp/include/clasp/core
2015-12-04T03:28:27Z drmeister: It would facilitate embedding clasp in other projects (something that I do now with my chemistry language Cando).
2015-12-04T03:28:36Z nyef: My feeling on a wholesale directory structure change is that if it's to be done, then it's better done sooner, as it is rather disruptive in terms of source control history.
2015-12-04T03:29:03Z drmeister: Ah, well that horse has left the stable.
2015-12-04T03:29:25Z drmeister: But that is a strong argument NOT to change it.
2015-12-04T03:29:44Z nyef: Only if you're looking forwards.
2015-12-04T03:30:15Z nyef: Three years from now, if the project is still going, the history bump will be fairly unnoticable because it's so far back.
2015-12-04T03:31:28Z nyef: But it still prevents using git log on a file and getting results beyond a certain point, and then if you want more history you have to run git log on the old pathname.
2015-12-04T03:31:56Z nyef: The sooner you change over, the more time you have to build history on the new path, and the less disruptive the change becomes over time.
2015-12-04T03:32:26Z drmeister: Understood.
2015-12-04T03:36:23Z nyef: Beyond that, I have no actual opinion on the change itself, just that of the timing if there IS to be a change. (-:
2015-12-04T03:37:29Z phf: renames are incredibly gratuitous for how disruptive they tend to be. i tend to read git history to gain insight into design decisions, and it seems like it's becoming more and more up vogue to "keep things clean" that way. they did renames on slime recently, why? who knows, "good new convention", etc.
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2015-12-04T03:41:07Z fe[nl]ix: phf: what renames ?
2015-12-04T03:42:15Z phf: you mean in slime? swank-foo.el to swank/foo.el
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2015-12-04T03:46:35Z fe[nl]ix: phf: what's the problem there ?
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2015-12-04T03:58:04Z phf: fe[nl]ix: i think it's gratuitous when done on long running projects. i didn't mean to single out slime, but in this case i had a code cut without a repository details from before the rename that was patched manually, i wanted to identiy the custom changes. a simple diff -rUn turned into a more extensive exercise
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2015-12-04T04:05:08Z brucem: nyef: git log --follow
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2015-12-04T04:22:16Z Bike: today i learned that you can do (destructuring-bind (&optional ((a b) (list 3 4))) ...). i am pretty sure i should not know this.
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2015-12-04T04:24:18Z pillton: clhs 3.4.4.1
2015-12-04T04:24:18Z specbot: Destructuring by Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dda.htm
2015-12-04T04:24:46Z White_Flame: or even (&optional ((a &optional b) (list 3 4))
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2015-12-04T04:25:47Z Bike: disgusting
2015-12-04T04:26:50Z kyfho: hey can I see your lisp powered website?
2015-12-04T04:26:58Z kyfho: do you avoid sql database? awesome!
2015-12-04T04:26:58Z pillton: (destructuring-bind ((a b)) '((1 2)) (list a b)) => (1 2)
2015-12-04T04:27:05Z kyfho: lisp kicking ass serving web gui
2015-12-04T04:27:12Z blub: lol
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2015-12-04T04:40:23Z pjb: beach: do you realize that the lisp reader calls reader macros that are implemented in Common Lisp, and which, besides the simple standard reader macros, will often include parsers of whole alternative languages?
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2015-12-04T04:42:53Z pjb: beach: of course, you should feel free to abuse it, since reader macros should be idempotent.
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2015-12-04T04:48:53Z beach: pjb: I realize that.  I am not saying my suggestion will always work; just that it will be better than what we currently do.
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2015-12-04T04:52:49Z kyfho: what do lispers think of devops?
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2015-12-04T04:54:00Z blub: when would you ever use ~:} in format
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2015-12-04T04:54:29Z blub: aside from the case where you know the argument list is empty, won't it always be an error
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2015-12-04T04:58:39Z Bike: devops is that thing @fart does, right
2015-12-04T05:00:16Z White_Flame: presumably devopping is the act of removing the backend from SBCL
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2015-12-04T05:01:39Z beach: :)
2015-12-04T05:04:33Z smokeink: why do ecl compiled binaries give such warnings? Warning: Duplicate proclamation for POSITIVE-REAL-P ...
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2015-12-04T06:01:04Z drmeister: Does anyone use M-. with slime to inspect C sources in ECL?
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2015-12-04T06:01:51Z drmeister: I thought I hooked everything up right in Clasp but I'm getting:  cond: Error: No TAGS file /Users/meister/Development/clasp/src/lisp/TAGS found. It should have been installed with CLASP.
2015-12-04T06:01:59Z drmeister: Time to check swank
2015-12-04T06:02:52Z drmeister: Ah, yes, the error message is from slime/swank/clasp.lisp
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2015-12-04T06:23:36Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-12-04T06:23:47Z jackdaniel: smokeink: I personally don't know
2015-12-04T06:24:02Z jackdaniel: probably it gets duplicated :P
2015-12-04T06:24:18Z jackdaniel: ie some proclamations file is loaded twice
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2015-12-04T06:53:41Z beach: I think the source of system code should be included in the executable so that M-. will always work and will always show the source as it was when the corresponding binary was created.
2015-12-04T06:54:39Z pillton wants the comments included too.
2015-12-04T06:54:58Z beach: Right.  The text of the file as it was when it was compiled.
2015-12-04T06:55:19Z beach: Just read the entire file into memory and store it in a string.
2015-12-04T06:56:51Z beach: I think it is one of these situations where it was not feasible to do it when the system was written, and nobody has done the calculation again in view of the drop in cost of memory and disk space.
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2015-12-04T06:58:56Z Fare: beach: do you have a complete CLOS implementation?
2015-12-04T06:59:11Z Fare: beach: how easy would it be to port it to Scheme?
2015-12-04T06:59:27Z beach: It is almost complete.  I don't have all the method combinations.
2015-12-04T06:59:55Z beach: I have not given any thought to such a port.
2015-12-04T07:00:36Z beach: It is pretty much written in idiomatic CLOS, without bootstrapping considerations.
2015-12-04T07:01:09Z beach: ... because I assume the existence of a full CLOS implementation when the system is bootstrapped.
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2015-12-04T07:07:40Z pillton: Hmm. sb-cltl2:function-information appends (&rest t) on to the function type in http://paste.lisp.org/display/164774. Does anyone know why?
2015-12-04T07:07:59Z Bike: sbcl has strange ideas about values types.
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2015-12-04T07:08:40Z Bike: what a coincidence, i was just about to ask: shouldn't (the (values) 4) be illegal?
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2015-12-04T07:09:19Z Bike: the way values types are defined to work is that "they indicate the parameter list of a function that, when given to multiple-value-call along with the values, would correctly receive those values."
2015-12-04T07:09:36Z Bike: and (multiple-value-call (lambda () 'works) 4) doesn't, of course
2015-12-04T07:10:05Z pillton: Where are you reading?
2015-12-04T07:10:17Z Bike: values type specifier
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2015-12-04T07:11:25Z Bike: oh, wait, there's more stuff in the.
2015-12-04T07:12:49Z Bike: yeah, ok, so sbcl tries to normalize values types so that they actually work strictly with THE, for better or worse.
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2015-12-04T07:14:45Z pillton: Ah.. I see. Nice catch.
2015-12-04T07:15:36Z Bike: if you want to say "this returns exactly two values" what you do in sbcl is throw &optional on the end, which i think actually makes no sense.
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2015-12-04T07:17:02Z tiir: luxemburgusrat.ddns.net
2015-12-04T07:17:08Z tiir: to talk about haxxoring for real
2015-12-04T07:17:13Z tiir: no logs! for real!
2015-12-04T07:17:24Z tiir: no nsa shit
2015-12-04T07:17:33Z tiir: private server in the other side of the world
2015-12-04T07:17:43Z tiir: bah.. public, tor and bots allowed
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2015-12-04T07:18:50Z Bike: beach: by the way, i'm writing an implementation of the CL type system. doesn't use hbaker's idea like yours does. https://github.com/Bike/sandalphon.types
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2015-12-04T07:36:33Z beach: Bike: Interesting.  I shall have to check it out.  I am not sure what "an implementation of [a] type system" means.
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2015-12-04T07:40:10Z sid_cypher: morning, lisp :3
2015-12-04T07:41:19Z varjag: morn
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2015-12-04T07:41:56Z sid_cypher: what an admirable brevity^^
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2015-12-04T08:11:16Z Shinmera: :scream:
2015-12-04T08:11:16Z Colleen: http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/scream.wav
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2015-12-04T08:25:26Z splittist: beach: if the editor provided a means for writers of reader macros to provide their own buffer annotations (including, perhaps "use the Python parser") then you get an 85%, instead of 80%, solution (:
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2015-12-04T10:12:19Z sid_cypher: usually there can be quite a lot of type systems, but it depends on your precise definition of a type system.
2015-12-04T10:13:30Z sid_cypher: how about "everything is a number and a typedef is a bidirectional mapping from custom type to integer"
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2015-12-04T10:15:50Z sid_cypher: unicode string are numbers in base 1114112, because that's how many code points there are, apparently.
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2015-12-04T10:22:06Z sid_cypher: ugh, i misinterpreted the log, so the complete pointlessness of my rant struck me in crushing realization. Thank you in advance for ignoring that.
2015-12-04T10:26:24Z jackdaniel: ,hue
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2015-12-04T11:55:59Z aerique: could someone mention me please?  #test isn't very helpful today
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2015-12-04T11:56:22Z djh: aerique: ok
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2015-12-04T11:56:50Z aerique: djh: thanks!
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2015-12-04T14:11:34Z Cymew: If I evaluate this: (setf (aref *tile-array* i) 'img1)
2015-12-04T14:11:56Z Cymew: Then the symbol in the array will be known as IMG1 and not img1
2015-12-04T14:12:07Z Cymew: Is there a way to stop that?
2015-12-04T14:12:12Z phoe_krk: '|img1|
2015-12-04T14:12:30Z Cymew facepalms
2015-12-04T14:12:39Z Cymew: Why do I never remeber that one...
2015-12-04T14:12:44Z phoe_krk: Happens to everyone.
2015-12-04T14:13:38Z phoe_krk: I'm working on a brief Lisp presentation to give for people interested in learning the language. So far I have a few things I want to show, including interactivity, quick prototyping, recompilation while the program is running, macros (let's write us a while), inspector, >>
2015-12-04T14:14:11Z phoe_krk: >> possibilities of naming variables/functions/symbols, namespaces, homoiconity. Is there anything else simple and showy enough that I should include?
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2015-12-04T14:15:18Z phoe_krk: Like, any demos for other small but unique features of the language?
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2015-12-04T14:16:50Z flip214: phoe_krk: don't know whether that counts as small or unique, but clos & introspection?
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2015-12-04T14:17:05Z flip214: ie. writing a function that dumps an instance to json or so?
2015-12-04T14:17:33Z phoe_krk: flip214: introspection. that's fun, thanks!
2015-12-04T14:17:51Z flip214: phoe_krk: maybe mention cl21, too??
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2015-12-04T14:18:26Z phoe_krk: flip214: cl21, I didn't know that
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2015-12-04T14:20:37Z phoe_krk: that's one interesting project
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2015-12-04T14:23:51Z phadthai: hmm not example code, but if it can help, I have a list of features at http://git.pulsar-zone.net/?p=mmondor.git;a=blob;f=mmsoftware/cl/test/advantages-of-common-lisp.txt;hb=HEAD
2015-12-04T14:23:52Z jackdaniel: it's not CL though
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2015-12-04T14:24:58Z mtl_: functional regexes... neat
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2015-12-04T14:25:53Z flip214: phoe_krk: mention *vars* instead of passing objects around ... *request* in hunchentoot?
2015-12-04T14:26:10Z phoe_krk: flip214: global variables? what do you mean?
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2015-12-04T14:28:44Z flip214: well, not global, but dynamic   http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html
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2015-12-04T14:29:22Z flip214: well, building "everything" via CONS cells is interesting from a non-practical POV, too
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2015-12-04T14:39:46Z phoe_krk: oh, I see
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2015-12-04T14:42:46Z Cymew: OK, I'm lost. Someone have some code which stores instantiated objects from a class in an array, and then grabs the data from the array as an argument so SLOT-VALUE of that object? Am I just making it complicated for myself?
2015-12-04T14:43:52Z phoe_krk: ummm.
2015-12-04T14:43:57Z dlowe: Cymew: I'm not sure what the complication is
2015-12-04T14:43:59Z phoe_krk: You have an array of objects.
2015-12-04T14:44:15Z phoe_krk: (aref array num) is an object.
2015-12-04T14:44:32Z phoe_krk: (slot-value (aref array num) slot-name) is the value of this object's slot called slot-name.
2015-12-04T14:44:36Z phoe_krk: AFAIR
2015-12-04T14:44:49Z Cymew: the thing is, (EVAL (AREF my-array 0)) claims the output is an unbound variable, not a pointer to my object...
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2015-12-04T14:45:01Z phoe_krk: Why eval?
2015-12-04T14:45:05Z dlowe: eval?
2015-12-04T14:45:30Z Cymew: because I need the object. I can not use SLOT-VALUE on a symbol, only an instantiated class.
2015-12-04T14:45:40Z phoe_krk: Ummm.
2015-12-04T14:45:45Z phoe_krk: You store *symbols* in the array?
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2015-12-04T14:45:59Z Cymew: yeah, pointers to the objects
2015-12-04T14:46:33Z Cymew: otheriwse I would have to have multiple copies of the object, which is wasteful if the array is of size 100 and 80% are just one kind.
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2015-12-04T14:47:07Z Cymew: So, (LET symbolname (make-instance ... )) and so on
2015-12-04T14:47:10Z Xof: there's a lot wrong with this
2015-12-04T14:47:27Z splittist: Cymew: I'm pretty sure that whatever you are trying to describe is not what actually happens.
2015-12-04T14:47:35Z Cymew: I'm guessing I'm just approaching it wrong...
2015-12-04T14:47:57Z Xof: Cymew: ok, the first thing is that lexical bindings are lexical: you can not at any point later go back to the symbol that you used and have any operator give you the value
2015-12-04T14:47:59Z splittist: Cymew: I have seldom found thinking in terms of pointers helps when reasoning about CL
2015-12-04T14:48:05Z phoe_krk: Cymew: judging from your description, I call PEBKAC
2015-12-04T14:48:19Z Xof: so doing (let ((foo <something>)) (setf (aref *array* 0) 'foo)) is basically never right
2015-12-04T14:48:22Z phoe_krk: as in, that's what happened to me quite many times
2015-12-04T14:48:46Z phoe_krk: Cymew: can you show us the code?
2015-12-04T14:48:49Z Xof: secondly: while I agree that thinking about pointers usually doesn't help, maybe a useful first approximation is: everything is a pointer
2015-12-04T14:49:14Z mtl_: just put the objects in the array
2015-12-04T14:49:24Z Cymew: Yes, everything is a pointer, so that's why I even used the word
2015-12-04T14:49:33Z Xof: so (let ((foo <something>)) (fill *array* foo)) fills the array with (say 100) references to the same object
2015-12-04T14:49:46Z Xof: not 100 copies, so there's no "waste"
2015-12-04T14:50:03Z Xof: Cymew: yes, but clearly you used it completely wrong, which is what splittist was trying to tell you gently
2015-12-04T14:50:28Z mtl_: I don't think objects get copied unless you explicitly copy them
2015-12-04T14:50:29Z Xof: that is, a Lisp value that is an array is (secretly, to a first approximation) a pointer to an array
2015-12-04T14:50:40Z phoe_krk: mtl_: objects *don't* get copied
2015-12-04T14:50:49Z Xof: you don't need manually to generate a new pointer to your lisp value; it already is a pointer
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2015-12-04T14:51:05Z mtl_: phoe_krk: that's what I'm saying
2015-12-04T14:51:10Z phoe_krk: yes, agreed
2015-12-04T14:51:16Z BitPuffin is now known as OUT
2015-12-04T14:51:25Z mtl_: you'd have to manually create another object and copy all the slot values over
2015-12-04T14:51:29Z Cymew: (let ((foo <something>)) (setf (aref *array* 0) 'foo)) is basically what I'm doing
2015-12-04T14:51:41Z Xof: yes, and it's completely wrong for at least the two reasons I've just given you
2015-12-04T14:51:53Z phoe_krk: Cymew: you don't store an object pointer.
2015-12-04T14:51:57Z phoe_krk: you store a symbol.
2015-12-04T14:52:04Z phoe_krk: Forget about the 'foo.
2015-12-04T14:52:05Z phoe_krk: Type just foo.
2015-12-04T14:52:27Z Xof: (1) lexical bindings don't persist, and (2) foo is already a "pointer" (in your terms), you don't need to use the symbol FOO
2015-12-04T14:52:28Z phoe_krk: So you can (aref *array* 0) and have an object instance.
2015-12-04T14:52:54Z Cymew: lexical bindings don't persist, indeed.
2015-12-04T14:52:58Z phoe_krk: (let ((foo "something")) (setf (aref *array* 0) foo))
2015-12-04T14:53:09Z Cymew: I guess I will have to meditate a bit more on the meaning of that.
2015-12-04T14:53:12Z Xof: but as splittist says, (0) using pointer terminology in CL can lead to confusion
2015-12-04T14:53:22Z phoe_krk: oh, one thing.
2015-12-04T14:54:08Z phoe_krk: Symbols aren't pointers. You don't dereference an object in Lisp by calling eval on its symbol.
2015-12-04T14:54:38Z Cymew: Oh, I did not use EVAL in my code, that was just a shorthand
2015-12-04T14:54:54Z phoe_krk: I mean, a symbol and an object can be bound in one piece of code and unbound in other, and each other bound to something even more different elsewhere.
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2015-12-04T14:55:19Z phoe_krk: Let's suppose that (aref *array* 0) returns 'foo.
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2015-12-04T14:55:42Z Cymew: Scoping rules always mess me up in all languages, so I guess I'm just back to my usual kind of errors.
2015-12-04T14:55:58Z nyef: phoe_krk: Wouldn't it return foo, not (quote foo)?
2015-12-04T14:56:07Z phoe_krk: nyef: correct.
2015-12-04T14:56:23Z mtl_: Cymew: just do (setf (aref ...) <object>)
2015-12-04T14:56:39Z mtl_: there will be no waste of space or superfluous objects
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2015-12-04T14:57:11Z phoe_krk: ^
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2015-12-04T14:58:03Z phoe_krk: You can literally fill a 100-piece arrray with *object* and this doesn't mean you copy the object that's referenced by *object* 100 times.
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2015-12-04T14:58:38Z phoe_krk: It just means that (eq (aref *array* x) (aref *array* y)) returns T for x,y between 0 and 99.
2015-12-04T14:58:47Z phoe_krk: They all return the same object.
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2015-12-04T14:59:58Z Cymew: Maybe I should have did some testing with EQ and EQL before barking up this stupid tree...
2015-12-04T15:00:07Z Cymew: s/did/done/
2015-12-04T15:00:38Z Cymew: Knuth was correct again about when to optimize.
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2015-12-04T15:01:49Z Cymew: Thanks a lot for the reality check, all.
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2015-12-04T15:02:21Z phoe_krk: I don't know what Knuth said, but optimize as the *last* thing.
2015-12-04T15:02:38Z phoe_krk: It's much easier once your thing is already working.
2015-12-04T15:02:52Z dlowe: unfortunately, a lot of people try that for correctness, too.
2015-12-04T15:02:54Z phoe_krk: And you can just replace parts in it with more optimized ones you debug outside of the running program.
2015-12-04T15:03:01Z phoe_krk: dlowe: explain
2015-12-04T15:03:30Z mtl_: it
2015-12-04T15:03:46Z phoe_krk: *it
2015-12-04T15:03:51Z mtl_: it's very easy to spew out some ugly but working code and tell yourself you'll clean it up later
2015-12-04T15:04:09Z dlowe: "I'll write this program without regard to design or thought and then fix the "hotspot" bugs found at the end."
2015-12-04T15:04:20Z Cymew: My error was I had working code, untill I started this whole business
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2015-12-04T15:04:44Z phoe_krk: dlowe: mtl_: well, that works but is hardly maintainable
2015-12-04T15:04:53Z OUT: mtl_: are you talking shit 'bout me!?
2015-12-04T15:04:59Z OUT: just kidding
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2015-12-04T15:05:09Z phoe_krk: and you can almost assume that your code *will* need maintenance at some point.
2015-12-04T15:05:15Z mtl_: hah
2015-12-04T15:05:20Z OUT: weow change your nick to a common word and watch all channels light up
2015-12-04T15:05:26Z phoe_krk: at which point if you did it the quick and dirty way, the person maintaining the code is fscked.
2015-12-04T15:05:26Z OUT is now known as BitPuffin
2015-12-04T15:05:28Z BitPuffin: :D
2015-12-04T15:05:33Z mtl_: gotta love irc
2015-12-04T15:06:04Z phoe_krk: :P
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2015-12-04T15:06:42Z mtl_: phoe_krk: my issues lie at the opposite side of spectrum; I sometimes spend so much time trying to design the whole program in my head no actual code gets written
2015-12-04T15:07:07Z mtl_: cause every time I start writing code I start thinking "but what if I need to do X later"
2015-12-04T15:07:14Z phoe_krk: mtl_: I have a problem - inability to do such things
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2015-12-04T15:07:33Z phoe_krk: so I end up writing a plist or alist containing my program so I can see what's inside my head
2015-12-04T15:07:35Z synchromesh: mtl_: catastrophism is a common problem with programmers I'd say.
2015-12-04T15:07:43Z phoe_krk: and these rough notes eventually end up working
2015-12-04T15:08:32Z mtl_: synchromesh: define catastrophism?
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2015-12-04T15:11:19Z synchromesh: mtl_: Hmm, maybe that's not the word for it (or at least not the common definition of the word) - I mean when you have an idea and before you can get started your imagination has extrapolated the initial premise into a huge system that is too complex to ever be implemented.
2015-12-04T15:11:33Z mtl_: ah
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2015-12-04T15:11:38Z mtl_: well put
2015-12-04T15:11:42Z mtl_: yes, this is exactly my problem
2015-12-04T15:12:04Z zwdr: well, but one of the cool things about lisp is that you can start out small in your REPL!
2015-12-04T15:12:41Z zwdr: I mean, I have the same problems, but that helps a bit with it
2015-12-04T15:12:56Z synchromesh: I'm trying to do a "minimum viable product" prototype but my brain is struggling with the "minimum" part.
2015-12-04T15:13:25Z synchromesh: Probably because up until now I was paid by the hour. :)
2015-12-04T15:13:33Z zwdr: haha
2015-12-04T15:13:57Z zwdr: I've had success with a simple list of features, and then sorting them on a scale of 1-10
2015-12-04T15:14:21Z zwdr: so I'd first implement the most important and that would be the first iteration yielding the first protoype
2015-12-04T15:14:25Z zwdr: and so on
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2015-12-04T15:16:08Z mtl_: yeah lisp is much more accommodating than other languages in this respect
2015-12-04T15:16:45Z mtl_: since making code heavily extensible is one of its biggest strengths
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2015-12-04T15:29:06Z White_Flame: synchromesh: "feature creep"
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2015-12-04T15:35:33Z synchromesh: White_Flame: That's more once you've started; I'm talking about what happens while you're still mulling over the original idea and what you could do with it, and somehow you end up with something that resembles the Metaverse...
2015-12-04T15:35:49Z White_Flame: "analysis paralysis"
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2015-12-04T15:36:52Z zwdr: I have the opposite problem, every time I think about adding a feature there's a small, persistent voice in the back of my head screaming "UNIX Philosophy!"
2015-12-04T15:37:03Z zwdr: I guess its the suckless syndrome
2015-12-04T15:39:50Z phf: zwdr: that's like calling being healthy and in shape "skinny person syndrome" ;)
2015-12-04T15:40:24Z White_Flame: features are good, but must be subject to good design and orthogonality
2015-12-04T15:40:33Z zwdr: maybe phf, but maybe I miss out on adding features that would improve the software :s
2015-12-04T15:40:36Z synchromesh: zwdr: By that argument, shouldn't you be using Scheme? :)
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2015-12-04T15:41:08Z zwdr: I mainly use Racket... that doesnt really count I guess :v
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2015-12-04T16:09:39Z sid_cypher: oh hey, fellow "analysis paralysis" talk.
2015-12-04T16:10:39Z sid_cypher: i spend much more time writing down stuff on sheets of paper than coding during the design phase
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2015-12-04T16:12:11Z synchromesh: sid_cypher: It wasn't really that either that I meant - not "I have too many options/ideas and I can't decide", more "I had a simple idea I could've tackled in a day but now it's metastasised into a monster that's too big to even start".
2015-12-04T16:12:20Z sid_cypher: and it gets reeeeeeally hard to stop my self from "pulling in optional dependencies" such as a dozen additional features all with robust data handling with all kinds of sanity checks
2015-12-04T16:12:50Z sid_cypher: synchromesh: oh, divide and conquer then :)
2015-12-04T16:13:23Z synchromesh: sid_cypher: I think "YAGNI" probably sums it up best.
2015-12-04T16:14:01Z synchromesh: sid_cypher: Or possibly just "KISS". :)
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2015-12-04T16:14:45Z sid_cypher: good advice, YAGNI, but i can only force myself to follow it after leaving hundreds of TODO comments in the code.
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2015-12-04T16:21:03Z White_Flame: synchromesh: I've generally understood analysis paralysis to be the former.  You get so wound up during the analysis phase that the project is paralyzed, not that you the analyst gets paralyzed
2015-12-04T16:21:21Z White_Flame: s/former/latter/ :-P
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2015-12-04T16:24:38Z sid_cypher: another painful thing is to release your project in an MVP state without all those great features you've envisioned.
2015-12-04T16:25:14Z sid_cypher: you put them on a roadmap and realize the road may take years to walk :)
2015-12-04T16:26:42Z White_Flame: my MVP states tend to be pretty up there already :-P
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2015-12-04T16:37:13Z pjb: Cymew: learn and write a few programs in Modula-2.
2015-12-04T16:37:36Z pjb: phoe_krk: no, it doesn't happen to everybody; not to people who used to program in uppercase languages.
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2015-12-04T16:38:43Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-12-04T16:38:51Z Shinmera: Hello beach.
2015-12-04T16:39:40Z phoe_krk: Hey.
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2015-12-04T16:41:29Z pjb: sid_cypher: nope. unicode strings are sequences of combinations of code points. IIRC, there may be up to 9 code-points making up a single glyph or character. so basically, unicode-char-code-limit would be (expt char-code-limit 9) = 2644598017394415282980887909431010067380614499508682752
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2015-12-04T16:42:35Z sid_cypher: pjb: are you sure you are talking about Unicode itself and not an encoding like UTF-8 or UTF-16?
2015-12-04T16:43:11Z pjb: sid_cypher: yes, unicode, with its combination of code-points.
2015-12-04T16:43:50Z pjb: minion: memo for Cymew: learn and write a few programs in Modula-2 (then you'll remember about uppercase symbols).  Also useful: (setf *print-case* :downcase) ; but this breaks some bad libraries…
2015-12-04T16:43:50Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Cymew when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-12-04T16:43:52Z sid_cypher: pjb: alright, this makes sense as well.
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2015-12-04T16:48:57Z pjb: sid_cypher: well, perhaps we cannot combine any two random code point, then the set of combining code points is much smaller, so it's (* 1114112 (expt on-the-order-of-a-hundred 9)) or something.
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2015-12-04T16:50:09Z sid_cypher: pjb: welp, good thing we do not have to implement any of that.
2015-12-04T16:51:04Z pjb: beach: quick considerations for keeping source in image: 1- what is the purpose? 2- can it be read-only? 3- then may want to reconstitute the text from sexps. 4- or compress the text anyways. 5- I have 585 MB of .lisp in ~/quicklisp (some duplicate versions, so it's a fuzzy upper bound); all loaded, that makes for a 154 MB executable image with ccl64.
2015-12-04T16:51:36Z pjb: sid_cypher: if we wanted to provide 100% unicode support with 100% CL conformity, we'd have to have such a char-code-limit…
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2015-12-04T16:52:18Z pjb: But I'm not sure that'd be possible to provide 100% unicode support, there are really very strange things in it (and very language dependent too).
2015-12-04T16:52:25Z sid_cypher: Japanese and Lojban grammars are superior because they allows you to skip the he/she/it business.
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2015-12-04T16:52:41Z pjb: Not a sign of superiority at all.
2015-12-04T16:53:15Z beach: pjb: Bah, those are just consequences of Yahoo computing environments.
2015-12-04T16:53:54Z beach: Why should I care whether it sits on disk in the quicklisp directory or in a .so file somewhere?
2015-12-04T16:54:09Z sid_cypher: pjb: how would you reformulate "I'll tell Cymew when he/she/it next speaks" without having to specify an annoying pronoun?
2015-12-04T16:54:18Z beach: Or, rather, why should I HAVE TO CARE.
2015-12-04T16:56:00Z White_Flame: sid_cypher: good ol' singular unspecific "they"
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2015-12-04T16:57:18Z pjb: beach: the main point is readonly or readwrite.  Sometimes, I M-. into the implementation and correct a bug. In this case I want RW. But most of the time, I M-. instead of a CLHS lookup, RO.  In the case of RW, you want to push the patch to a git/svn and pull request, etc…
2015-12-04T16:57:26Z sid_cypher: White_Flame: is it an accepted thing already? i've heard people deny the existence of singular they.
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2015-12-04T16:57:51Z White_Flame: who knows what "accepted" means, but I've heard it used all my life
2015-12-04T16:57:59Z pjb: beach: ie. it's not simple (it should be), but better done in the external system and file system, until we have git inside the lisp image.
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2015-12-04T16:58:42Z beach: pjb: I think that, given that we have this Yahoo computing environment, I would have the source in the executable read-only, so that it corresponds to the executable code.  If editing is desired, I would compare some check sum with the version on disk and, if they correspond, let the user edit the file.
2015-12-04T16:59:48Z beach: pjb: The main utility here is to make it possible to always show positions in source code that are guaranteed to correspond to the executable code.  Editing is a different story.
2015-12-04T17:00:05Z pjb: beach: also, popular platforms nowadays, include things like Raspberry Zero (512 MB RAM, 8 GB SSD), or iPad (perhaps 1 or 2 GB RAM, 16 GB SSD), so we should also consider all the possible targets.
2015-12-04T17:00:17Z beach: Nah.
2015-12-04T17:00:20Z beach: You can if you want.
2015-12-04T17:01:11Z pjb: If you restrict to RO, I'd consider a sexp form (function-lambda-expression), and pprint to display the "source".
2015-12-04T17:02:05Z Fare: beach: what about "just" remembering the filename + checksum + location within file?
2015-12-04T17:02:25Z Fare: that (minus checksum?) seems to be what ccl is doing.
2015-12-04T17:02:36Z beach: Because the file might have been modified.
2015-12-04T17:02:49Z beach: And then there is no source corresponding to the executable.
2015-12-04T17:02:52Z Fare: hence remembering the checksum. It's the source control's job to have it
2015-12-04T17:02:52Z pjb: And some "distributions" don't install the text source files.
2015-12-04T17:03:08Z Fare: "not my problem" ?
2015-12-04T17:03:19Z pjb: Well, you could as well remember a git url and commit hash.
2015-12-04T17:03:35Z pjb: If there's a repo cloned locally so good, otherwise fetch it from the remote repo.
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2015-12-04T17:03:53Z pjb: Let's just abstract it away.
2015-12-04T17:04:05Z Fare: I mean, if you're building the compiler and its debug information, that's better
2015-12-04T17:04:17Z Fare: if you're building the IDE, you'll need the source control support anyway
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2015-12-04T17:04:58Z Fare: Racket seems to track source location for various layers of intermediate macro-expansion.
2015-12-04T17:05:25Z beach: Yeah, that's a good idea.  Might not work all the time, but often it will.
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2015-12-04T17:10:28Z beach: pjb: Have you read Fare's description of the difference between Human and Houyhnhnm computing?
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2015-12-04T17:11:37Z pjb: beach: I don't have the url.
2015-12-04T17:11:37Z pjb:  
2015-12-04T17:11:55Z beach: http://ngnghm.github.io/
2015-12-04T17:12:04Z pjb: He! I don't even have the longest package name; it's ORG.TYMOONNEXT.RADIANCE.LIB.MODULARIZE.INTERFACES.TEST-IMPLEMENTATION.ASDF; and the shortest is KM.
2015-12-04T17:12:40Z pjb: beach: thanks, I'll read it later.
2015-12-04T17:13:54Z beach: pjb: When you do, I hope you will understand why I am so grumpy, now that there is this excellent description of all that we are doing wrong.  It does not make me want to work to compensate for the flaws in our current computing environment.
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2015-12-04T17:14:24Z beach: A package name that ends with ASDF?  That's odd!
2015-12-04T17:15:06Z Fare: I have such a package name!
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2015-12-04T17:15:24Z beach: What is its purpose?
2015-12-04T17:15:34Z Fare: it's called ASDF.
2015-12-04T17:15:39Z Fare: you may have heard of it.
2015-12-04T17:15:48Z beach: Heh.  OK, you win!
2015-12-04T17:16:14Z Fare: I like to say that it does NOTHING, but it does it well. Kind of.
2015-12-04T17:16:48Z Fare: actually, not so well with defsystem-depends-on — that doesn't work well incrementally.
2015-12-04T17:17:37Z beach: I am certainly not going to complain about it, because, if I did, I would not know what I am talking about.
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2015-12-04T17:20:36Z Shinmera: pjb: The shortest is `v` for the verbose logger.
2015-12-04T17:20:50Z Shinmera: And I think there's some other single-letter ones out there too.
2015-12-04T17:21:39Z Shinmera: beach: It's from back when I made a separate package for the ASD file.
2015-12-04T17:21:56Z Shinmera: I don't do that anymore nowadays.
2015-12-04T17:22:10Z beach: Git it.
2015-12-04T17:22:18Z beach: Heh, "Got it".
2015-12-04T17:22:24Z beach: Interesting typo.
2015-12-04T17:23:55Z beach: pjb: Once Shinmera does some adaptive maintenance on Radiance, your package will be the one with the longest name again.
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2015-12-04T17:24:46Z mordocai: Ooh yeah, that reminds me. Is there a de facto "standard" logging library for lisp? With log levels and such?
2015-12-04T17:24:55Z mordocai: I'm sure there isn't, but what do people use here?
2015-12-04T17:25:55Z shka: mordocai: logging does not seems to be terribly difficult, right? ;-)
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2015-12-04T17:26:10Z mordocai: shka: You would think that, but there's a reason most languages have a standard logging library.
2015-12-04T17:27:19Z sid_cypher: CLiki Current recommendend libraries list suggests Log4CL
2015-12-04T17:27:36Z shka: well cl has not, but http://www.cliki.net/logging
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2015-12-04T17:27:54Z mordocai: I see that but CLiki's log4cl article mentions it looks unmaintained as well
2015-12-04T17:27:57Z White_Flame: how many languages have it in the actual standard library, though?
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2015-12-04T17:28:30Z mordocai: Not sure, but I consider de facto standards very close to equal for my use cases.
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2015-12-04T17:32:09Z mordocai: White_Flame: Looks like ruby, python, and clojure all have logging libraries in their "core libraries" as in libraries that are shipped with the language but have to be enabled.
2015-12-04T17:32:31Z mordocai: There's java.util.logging as well but not sure if that is shipped with java or not.
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2015-12-04T17:33:01Z shka: mordocai: yes, cl is from different era
2015-12-04T17:33:33Z shka: when language was just set of semantics and data structures
2015-12-04T17:33:35Z mordocai: shka: I'm not complaining about cl not having it, just addressing the question.
2015-12-04T17:33:48Z shka: sure
2015-12-04T17:33:52Z shka: i undertand that
2015-12-04T17:34:00Z shka: but i would simply pick one of those
2015-12-04T17:34:10Z shka: check if it is doing it's job
2015-12-04T17:34:16Z shka: and be done with it
2015-12-04T17:34:23Z shka: probabbly they all do the same thing in the end
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2015-12-04T17:35:30Z pjb: beach: I have one too.  That's the whole point of structured hierarchical package names.  com.informatimago.tools.asdf
2015-12-04T17:35:44Z pjb: I have a com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp too.
2015-12-04T17:36:13Z beach: What is the purpose of the one that ends with .asdf?
2015-12-04T17:36:14Z mordocai: shka: I feel like that's one of the reasons btw that lisp isn't really used in business applications. When you are writing an application that your business depends on you want to know that the libraries you are using are being successfully used by other people. The lisp community generally just says "Try it yourself, why do you care if other people use it?". I like that philosophy for personal projects, but not for ones for business.
2015-12-04T17:36:16Z pjb: Shinmera: of course; I only considered the 1551 packages loaded by quick-load-all.
2015-12-04T17:36:41Z shka: mordocai: well, perhaps you are right
2015-12-04T17:36:43Z mordocai: In any case, works for me this time because I'm only using lisp for personal stuff
2015-12-04T17:36:56Z sid_cypher: it would be really good to have a "de-facto standard library for feature N" list, approved by the whole community with voting and such.
2015-12-04T17:36:59Z shka: it is just rather… boring issue
2015-12-04T17:37:06Z mordocai: shka: Yep :)
2015-12-04T17:37:28Z shka: and i don't feel like i want to deal with boring stuff right now
2015-12-04T17:37:28Z beach: mordocai: I am willing to bet that not one single additional business application would use Common Lisp even if it had a standard logging library.
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2015-12-04T17:37:42Z mordocai: beach: It's an overall community thing, not about one library
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2015-12-04T17:38:21Z shka: mordocai: we have some de facto standard libs
2015-12-04T17:38:23Z shka: usocket
2015-12-04T17:38:26Z shka: bt
2015-12-04T17:38:26Z pjb: mordocai: having a standard logging library sounds silly for me. Each different kind of applications needs different kinds of logging and log delivery.
2015-12-04T17:38:33Z shka: and more
2015-12-04T17:39:06Z sid_cypher: shka: cool, where are they listed so that newfriends can easily find them?
2015-12-04T17:39:18Z beach: mordocai: My point is that the reasons that not many business applications use Common Lisp are WAY more profound that that.
2015-12-04T17:39:43Z mordocai: beach: I disagree. I think the only reason common lisp is not as popular as clojure is the community.
2015-12-04T17:39:43Z sid_cypher: well, one place is http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries
2015-12-04T17:39:58Z zwdr: I believe the organic development process lisp lends itself to is just not suited for large teams
2015-12-04T17:40:09Z pjb: beach: businesses need business DSLs, like Cobol or Java JESS.
2015-12-04T17:40:19Z pjb: need and use.
2015-12-04T17:40:31Z zwdr: well, you could plant a lisp app top-down, but then that wont really play to the strengths of the language
2015-12-04T17:40:34Z beach: I can't say I care much.
2015-12-04T17:40:35Z zwdr: *plan
2015-12-04T17:40:38Z mordocai: zwdr: Clojure has that too, but it is doing fairly well. That might be due to the jvm though.
2015-12-04T17:41:03Z zwdr: thats true mordocai, maybe I'm wrong
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2015-12-04T17:41:19Z sid_cypher: oh, businesses want to reduce responcibily and simplify decision-making, right?
2015-12-04T17:41:35Z DeadTrickster: how to define callback at runtime using cffi?
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2015-12-04T17:42:10Z sid_cypher: when you say "try those libs and decide", you increase responsibility of the asker and give him decision troubles.
2015-12-04T17:42:21Z mordocai: sid_cypher: Right, basically.
2015-12-04T17:42:29Z mordocai: Which makes managers anxious
2015-12-04T17:42:43Z mordocai: Not saying that is right, but it does appear to be the way things are
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2015-12-04T17:43:29Z beach doesn't think we should cater to incompetent management.
2015-12-04T17:44:38Z sid_cypher: mordocai: when my webstuff is done, i consider using it to make a web-of-trust library rating of sorts.
2015-12-04T17:44:43Z DeadTrickster: oh flamewar again
2015-12-04T17:44:51Z DeadTrickster: better answer my question
2015-12-04T17:45:02Z DeadTrickster: 100% pure lisp
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2015-12-04T17:45:44Z shka: DeadTrickster: lie! some c is involved!
2015-12-04T17:45:51Z DeadTrickster: blah
2015-12-04T17:45:57Z DeadTrickster: you got me $-)
2015-12-04T17:46:16Z mordocai: I'd like to be able to use lisp in my career, but to do so I have to be able to convince (sometimes incompetent) management that it is a good idea. That is why I bother discussing this tuff.
2015-12-04T17:46:26Z mordocai: stuff*
2015-12-04T17:46:32Z sid_cypher: +1
2015-12-04T17:46:43Z beach: mordocai: I think that is a horrible idea.
2015-12-04T17:46:52Z shka: well, i don't have any answers
2015-12-04T17:46:54Z mordocai: beach: That's nice.
2015-12-04T17:47:05Z pjb: mordocai: at one time, it'll be easier to start up your own company,convince customers that you can do their program and don't discuss how you do it.
2015-12-04T17:47:06Z shka: but if you figure this thing out
2015-12-04T17:47:09Z beach: mordocai: They will make a mess and then blame Lisp for the failure.
2015-12-04T17:47:12Z shka: let me know
2015-12-04T17:47:28Z sid_cypher: beach: your intolerance towards less than competent managers is a bit youngful-maximalistic.
2015-12-04T17:47:36Z mordocai: beach: That's what management always does with any language so *shrug*
2015-12-04T17:48:18Z dwchandler: I haven't done it with lisp yet, but in the past I've used non-mainstream langs by just building something and showing that I have something working.
2015-12-04T17:48:18Z sid_cypher: people have blamed lisp so much, we're immune by now, or at least "it can't get any worse"
2015-12-04T17:48:37Z beach: dwchandler: That is a much better technique.
2015-12-04T17:49:03Z beach: sid_cypher: "youngful"?  What does it mean?
2015-12-04T17:49:07Z dwchandler: It's the only way I know how
2015-12-04T17:49:26Z sid_cypher: beach: most usually pertaining to young people
2015-12-04T17:49:28Z beach: dwchandler: Can't agree more.
2015-12-04T17:49:36Z zwdr: oh yea, remembers me of a story my father told me, where he had to build something for a customer he didnt really like, and provide the source
2015-12-04T17:49:37Z beach: sid_cypher: Thanks [I guess].
2015-12-04T17:49:42Z zwdr: so he wrote it in Smalltalk
2015-12-04T17:49:48Z zwdr: cause who the fuck knows smalltalk?
2015-12-04T17:49:55Z zwdr: anyway, thats OT
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2015-12-04T17:50:17Z pjb: not entirely. Smalltalk was written in lisp originally.
2015-12-04T17:50:25Z mordocai: beach: dwchandler: It isn't a different technique than what I suggested. It is a way so start down the path of convincing a manager, but most managers will not be convinced simply by someone on their team writing something in a language.
2015-12-04T17:50:41Z pjb: They'll fire him.
2015-12-04T17:50:48Z sid_cypher: should've done that in Malebolg i mean Whitespace
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2015-12-04T17:52:23Z namespace: zwdr: http://squeak.org/
2015-12-04T17:52:30Z namespace: Smalltalk isn't *that* obscure.
2015-12-04T17:52:30Z dwchandler: mordocai: it depends on the company. last place I worked that sort of thing worked well. ask and you get a "no". make something and the manager bitches but doesn't stop anything. later, the manager stops bitching
2015-12-04T17:52:40Z namespace: I'd be seriously surprised if Smalltalk was more obscure than CL.
2015-12-04T17:52:49Z sid_cypher: "nice demo, make it a java bean - what do you mean it lisp? - rewrite it in java."
2015-12-04T17:53:11Z mordocai: dwchandler: Right, but you won't ever get to write your core business software in the language that way. At least in the general case. It'll be limited to tools/supporting software.
2015-12-04T17:53:12Z dwchandler: mordocai: current company that won't work, but then we're already using a variety of languages
2015-12-04T17:53:56Z pjb: namespace: actually, I've got the impression CS students have more lisp or scheme coverage than smalltalk.
2015-12-04T17:53:57Z dwchandler: a rewrite of a critical app was done in erlang, for instance
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2015-12-04T17:54:48Z mordocai: dwchandler: Awesome. Yeah, in my experience that kind of thing has been completely off the table. Of course, there is a lot more erlang in production out there than lisp.
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2015-12-04T17:55:09Z Shinmera: mordocai: Verbose has log levels, categories, and other fancy stuff. http://shinmera.github.io/verbose/
2015-12-04T17:56:00Z mordocai: Shinmera: Nice, i'll look at it first. I generally like your stuff.
2015-12-04T17:56:09Z Shinmera: Oh- glad to hear!
2015-12-04T17:56:35Z Shinmera: pjb: Verbose is in Quicklisp, though I think I have `v` as a nickname, rather than the primary name.
2015-12-04T17:56:46Z sid_cypher: "when facing a choice, use Shinmera's stuff"
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2015-12-04T17:56:56Z Shinmera: sid_cypher: I don't think that's a good rule to go by.
2015-12-04T17:58:13Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: wouldn't you like more feedback and pull requests for your projects? :)
2015-12-04T17:58:43Z mordocai: Shinmera: Is this really by the perl foundation? https://github.com/Shinmera/verbose/blob/master/LICENSE#L1-L2 :P
2015-12-04T17:58:51Z Shinmera: sid_cypher: Sure, but I would like it even more if people chose the things that are most suitable, and I'd be hard pressed to agree to the claim that my particular choices turn out to be the most favourable generally.
2015-12-04T17:59:09Z Shinmera: mordocai: The license is, yes.
2015-12-04T17:59:27Z mordocai: Ah, so the license itself is copyrighted by the perl foundation? Got it
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2015-12-04T18:04:47Z Shinmera: mordocai: I find https://tldrlegal.com/license/artistic-license-2.0-(artistic) to be quite useful to get a quick look at licenses.
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2015-12-04T19:32:14Z Xach: Anyone got windows and ccl and feel like trying something for me?
2015-12-04T19:32:21Z Xach: looking for 1.10 or 1.11
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2015-12-04T19:33:59Z pjb: aw, windows…
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2015-12-04T19:35:33Z mtl_: I do have a windows partition, but i'd rather not boot it since it's stuck in some loop where it does 100+ "update configurations" and fails at 90-something, which apparently makes it discard everything
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2015-12-04T19:35:45Z Xach: bummer
2015-12-04T19:35:58Z mtl_: takes half an hour to boot it
2015-12-04T19:36:03Z Xach: i am having a vexing problem with ccl:save-application and i don't know if it's just my setup, virtualization, ccl, or something else
2015-12-04T19:36:21Z Xach: if it's not happening to only me i will feel better, even though it might not immediately help solve the problem
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2015-12-04T19:41:42Z dwchandler: Xach: windows with something else in a vm, or windows in a vm, or just plain windows?
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2015-12-04T19:42:53Z Xach: dwchandler: plain windows
2015-12-04T19:42:58Z PuercoPop: mordocai: the article from grammarly that you posted on reddit has the 'logging library' they use, it is one function! Checkout orthecreedence's vom
2015-12-04T19:43:01Z Xach: i am having trouble with windows 10 and windows server 2012
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2015-12-04T19:50:20Z pjb: Ah, I won't do MS-windows 10.  I'll phase out my flight simulator addiction rather than persist using MS-windows.
2015-12-04T19:52:23Z mordocai: PuercoPop: Ah, cool. Yeah I didn't see that. I'll take a look.
2015-12-04T19:52:38Z mordocai: Well, I probably did see that but I haven't read that article in full for months.
2015-12-04T19:53:19Z dlowe: I'll use win10 once the bugs and driver issues are shaken out. They will only discover that I only play video games on windows.
2015-12-04T19:55:24Z Xach: what about server 2012?
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2015-12-04T19:56:28Z Shinmera: Xach: I have a Win10 VM
2015-12-04T19:56:38Z Shinmera: Haven't got CCL on it, but I can change that.
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2015-12-04T19:56:59Z Xach: can you give http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1332 a try?
2015-12-04T19:57:12Z mordocai: PuercoPop: That GSoC was very informative, hadn't seen it. Also, I should probably start hanging out on #sbcl as well I feel.
2015-12-04T19:57:20Z Shinmera: Xach: Sure, give me a minute.
2015-12-04T19:58:16Z JuanDaugherty: first appearance of 32-64 issue
2015-12-04T19:58:59Z Shinmera: Garrgh, updates
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2015-12-04T19:59:06Z Shinmera: Might be more than a minute now
2015-12-04T19:59:14Z JuanDaugherty has native 10 64 but not ccl
2015-12-04T20:00:18Z JuanDaugherty: or I guess "real" (non-vm), not native
2015-12-04T20:01:36Z phf: pjb: x-plane runs on linux :)
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2015-12-04T20:03:35Z PuercoPop: mordocai: the video from allegro is also interesting, check it out when you have the time.
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2015-12-04T20:07:36Z Shinmera: Xach: Should I repeat this a few times or?
2015-12-04T20:07:41Z Shinmera: Xach: the first test seems to have succeeded
2015-12-04T20:08:25Z Xach: Shinmera: sure
2015-12-04T20:08:36Z Xach: Shinmera: if i run it 10 times, i get 9 failures, generally
2015-12-04T20:10:47Z Shinmera: Xach: Ran it 6 times now, still no failure.
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2015-12-04T20:11:01Z Xach: ok. that does not really help me feel any better!
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2015-12-04T20:11:08Z Shinmera: Sorry!
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2015-12-04T20:11:47Z Xach tries some other stuff
2015-12-04T20:12:06Z Shinmera: Is there anything else I could tell you?
2015-12-04T20:12:15Z Shinmera: (send the produced files or something)
2015-12-04T20:13:19Z Xach: no, that's ok
2015-12-04T20:13:40Z Shinmera: Ok. Let me know if you have something new to test then.
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2015-12-04T20:14:01Z phf: mordocai: i was at an executive brainstorm session at a large java firm, where the question was raised on how to attract young and inexpensive talent pool, and the solution was to spinoff a skunk works team, the language choice was between clojure, scala and ruby on rails running on jruby. i'm kind of glad that common lisp doesn't factor in that sort of debates.
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2015-12-04T20:14:55Z dlowe: abcl could have been on the table
2015-12-04T20:16:23Z phf: dlowe: abcl would not have solved the stated problem
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2015-12-04T20:20:01Z dlowe: phf: it might have if marketed right
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2015-12-04T20:21:14Z dwchandler: "young and inexpensive"
2015-12-04T20:21:18Z dlowe: when I was young and inexpensive, I found teams accomplishing things more attractive than any single technology.
2015-12-04T20:22:28Z dwchandler: I guess programmers-as-commodity is fine if you're building something uninteresting/non-challenging
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2015-12-04T20:23:23Z phf: dwchandler: most of the things built are uninteresting/non-challenging. in order for them to be otherwise ~owners~ need to have interesting and challenging ideas.
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2015-12-04T20:23:26Z shka: dwchandler: that's the case for 90% of market
2015-12-04T20:23:46Z dlowe: you can always make things interesting and challenging by upping the ante for quality
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2015-12-04T20:24:24Z phf: imho that's why lisp success stories are always solutions to hard problems in novel markers by people who are technically sophisticated to begin with. (rather then, say, widgets co, or todoap.pr)
2015-12-04T20:24:35Z TMA: dlowe: thats upping the challenging part; interesting is a property of the target domain
2015-12-04T20:25:05Z dwchandler: I'd rather let someone else deal with 90% of the market. There are tons of php, java, and node.js devs out there. They can have it.
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2015-12-04T20:26:02Z JuanDaugherty: hear hear
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2015-12-04T20:28:42Z dwchandler: Easy for me to say now. When I was young and hungry, not so much.
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2015-12-04T20:30:06Z phf: dwchandler: but your pain threshold was probably higher, appreciation for lisp's particularly clever design decisions was perhaps non-existent, etc.
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2015-12-04T20:34:22Z phf: i mean, every couple of years someone decides to solve a problem at the frontline of technological and cognitive possibility, and there's an incredibly high chance they choose lisp and succeed (more often in solving the problem, rather then say, financially). i think if the goal is to work on problems that are challenging and interesting, then lisp has an incredibly high adoption rate.
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2015-12-04T20:46:10Z shka: well, i just wish i would have a chance to work on anything that is really innovative
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2015-12-04T20:56:31Z phf: i was at an education conference recently, and amongst bandwagon of "virtual blackboard" and "gamify your experience", there was this one http://www.whiteboxlearning.com. end-to-end education platform for STEM. guided design of a glider or a car, with various levels of physics problems/questions, 3d simulation of your design, 3d print parts of your design into a construction kit, etc. really fucking impressive, compared to what's being
2015-12-04T20:56:31Z phf: peddled as "education technology"
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2015-12-04T20:57:47Z phf: anyway, talked to ceo, turned out whole thing is written in common lisp (of course!), ceo was actually kind of worried because whole thing written by two guys, and what if they are hit by bus, etc. was actually surprised there were people out there interested in doing common lisp programming :o
2015-12-04T20:58:18Z mordocai: He should come to irc and watch the resumes flow in
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2015-12-04T21:00:02Z phf: or interested parties here can send them polite "hello, in case you're looking" message, that is if interested in education market. literally the only product that stood out on its own (ignoring google classroom and lego and other such heavyweights)
2015-12-04T21:00:29Z shka: phf: this looks really cool
2015-12-04T21:00:33Z shka: such a nice idea
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2015-12-04T21:00:39Z mordocai: phf: indeed
2015-12-04T21:01:08Z PuercoPop: phf: Kenny Tilton also has an algebra tutoring website written in CL.
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2015-12-04T21:02:25Z shka: damn
2015-12-04T21:02:49Z shka: whiteboxlearning looks like fun
2015-12-04T21:02:51Z shka: really :D
2015-12-04T21:02:54Z phf: yeah, i gave these whitebox people kenny tilton's email (hope he doesn't mind :x) in case they might want to integrate another lisp product into their classroom/school management backend
2015-12-04T21:04:02Z shka: there was a game where you were building a bridge that had to support weight of train
2015-12-04T21:04:19Z phf: their renderer is written in flash, i think they are writing an experimental html5 rewrite, but it's basically a dumb client, vrml style
2015-12-04T21:04:19Z shka: i spend HOURS on that back when i was kid
2015-12-04T21:04:36Z attila_lendvai: luis: are there any plans to use conium to implement swank? if not, would that be a good idea? to have a factored out debug-portability lib that swank uses?
2015-12-04T21:05:42Z shka: phf: flash is not that bad for things like this
2015-12-04T21:06:16Z phf: shka: it doesn't even figure as "flash" it's more like a weird lisp to browser 3d ffi thing :>
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2015-12-04T22:24:17Z mood: Shinmera: I can't currently load autobuild (newest from the dist) because of a compile error in r-ratify. Is this a known problem?
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2015-12-04T22:24:54Z Shinmera: mood: When in doubt fetch things from git.
2015-12-04T22:25:06Z Shinmera: Though hold on
2015-12-04T22:25:09Z Shinmera: I'll just update the dist
2015-12-04T22:26:57Z Shinmera: mood: Try updating the dist again
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2015-12-04T22:27:28Z mood: Hmm, same error. I'll clear the cache
2015-12-04T22:28:55Z Shinmera: Ah wait
2015-12-04T22:29:05Z Shinmera: ratify is not in the dist, I have to add that.
2015-12-04T22:29:30Z mood: Shinmera: same error: http://link.joram.io/db.txt
2015-12-04T22:29:47Z Shinmera: Now it should be good.
2015-12-04T22:29:59Z Shinmera: Yeah, I rewrote ratify.
2015-12-04T22:30:21Z mood: Shinmera: Fixed. Awesome
2015-12-04T22:30:32Z Shinmera: There's also been some breaking changes to Autobuild
2015-12-04T22:30:54Z Shinmera: Namely there's a staging mechanism now, so your recipes need to be updated.
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2015-12-04T22:31:37Z Shinmera: For clasp, something like http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/E0# should be good now.
2015-12-04T22:31:39Z mood: Shinmera: I see. I'll take a look
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2015-12-04T22:33:44Z mood: Shinmera: There appears to be a problem somewhere. The browser complains about a '<c:splice-inner>' xml namespace not existing
2015-12-04T22:33:49Z DeadTrickster: is it me or fast-io doesn't enforce signedness ?
2015-12-04T22:33:59Z mood: Looks like a Clip template not being rendered?
2015-12-04T22:34:13Z Shinmera: Yeah clip needs an update too-- I thought that was in the dist?
2015-12-04T22:34:23Z mood: Shinmera: I thought so too
2015-12-04T22:34:29Z Shinmera: Turns out it isn't!
2015-12-04T22:35:13Z Shinmera: I should probably just dump in all of my projects at some point. Anyway, clip is updated now.
2015-12-04T22:35:39Z DeadTrickster: like here: (write8-be out 200)
2015-12-04T22:35:58Z DeadTrickster: it throws type error here (write8-be out 260)
2015-12-04T22:36:05Z DeadTrickster: huh?
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2015-12-04T22:40:39Z mood: Shinmera: Thanks, builds are running again.
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2015-12-04T22:48:14Z mood: DeadTrickster: fast-io doesn't appear to enforce anything. The reason 260 gives an error is that it doesn't fit in 8 bits, unsigned.
2015-12-04T22:48:41Z DeadTrickster: mood, that is what I'm talking about
2015-12-04T22:48:43Z DeadTrickster: :-)
2015-12-04T22:49:04Z DeadTrickster: it enforces unsigned bounds but not signed
2015-12-04T22:49:07Z oGMo: it doesn't enforce the sign?
2015-12-04T22:49:09Z oGMo: err
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2015-12-04T22:50:02Z mood: It converts from signed to unsigned before types really come into play
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2015-12-04T22:50:44Z oGMo: i'm not sure why i don't have declare type for each function
2015-12-04T22:51:21Z oGMo: oh, i use THE, which is probalby wrong
2015-12-04T22:51:33Z DeadTrickster: oGMo, you are the author of fast-io?
2015-12-04T22:51:49Z oGMo: DeadTrickster: yeah, and i wrote it awhile ago so it probably could be better ;)
2015-12-04T22:51:57Z DeadTrickster: I'm too lazy to proper report issues on github sorry
2015-12-04T22:52:15Z oGMo: i just happened to notice it mentioned here, i'll fix
2015-12-04T22:52:27Z DeadTrickster: I usually find people here ho-ho
2015-12-04T22:52:35Z oGMo: but yeah if you have issues definitely report, i _try_ to keep up on them
2015-12-04T22:53:07Z DeadTrickster: oGMo, well it doesn't break things for me that is why I'm lazy here
2015-12-04T22:53:31Z DeadTrickster: typ[e constraints enforced in my code long before fast-io comes into play
2015-12-04T22:53:52Z oGMo: sure, but proper decls if nothing else can only help
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2015-12-04T22:55:08Z DeadTrickster: actually for my super-secret mongodb driver I use handrolled one-file lib very close to fast-io with one difference though - it supports some kind of cursor
2015-12-04T22:55:37Z DeadTrickster: when binary protocol says you have to write length of the packet first it helps greatly
2015-12-04T22:56:07Z DeadTrickster: I just insert placeholder then I emit all bytes needed counting them and after that I insert proper length
2015-12-04T22:56:50Z oGMo: brb
2015-12-04T22:59:43Z DeadTrickster: oGMo, actually look here: https://github.com/cl-rabbit/cl-amqp/blob/master/src/protocol/types.lisp#L374 I have to encode in separate buffer just to be able to insert length first int the main one
2015-12-04T23:02:46Z pjb: phf: yes, X-Plane and FlightGear; but DCS World is more adrenaline-loaded :-)
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2015-12-04T23:46:27Z oGMo: DeadTrickster: ah yeah .. with e.g. conspack i only have to encode type/length first .. in theory i can block out a value and write it later, but
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2015-12-04T23:49:14Z oGMo: committed a fix, though, should signal an error on bad values now
2015-12-04T23:49:28Z DeadTrickster: but...?
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2015-12-04T23:50:36Z DeadTrickster: you extending underlying array right? what about something like (with-length-as-ub32 ... ) where you store position and increment cursor by 4
2015-12-04T23:50:40Z DeadTrickster: oGMo,
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2015-12-04T23:54:53Z drmeister: Is it legitimate to do this:
2015-12-04T23:54:55Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/b9e5py7E/
2015-12-04T23:55:14Z drmeister: Within a loop, assign to a dynamic variable    for *tags* = tags
2015-12-04T23:55:58Z Bicyclidine: i think so?
2015-12-04T23:56:03Z drmeister: I want to debug what's in tags and I think it's more convenient in slime if its in a dynamic variable
2015-12-04T23:56:50Z drmeister: Or is there a way to evaluate forms in a particular frame using M-C-x or something like that?
2015-12-04T23:57:23Z drmeister: Maybe if I could open a buffer in slime that is attached to a particular frame in the backtrace.  Does slime let me do that?
2015-12-04T23:57:31Z |3b|: it is legitimate, and slime debugger should be able to see the lexical variable if you compile with high debug settings (depending on implementation)
2015-12-04T23:59:00Z drmeister: The slime debugger sees it but I have some complicated forms that I want to evaluate including tags and typing them into a single line will be painful.
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2015-12-05T00:52:14Z isoraqathedh: When CFFI tries to load a library on Windows, what is it looking for? I'm trying to load sqlite but it's asking for an "sqlite3", which is not sqlite3.dll (x86 or x64) nor the .exe. I run an x64 system, but it complains about whatever I fed it not being a "Win32" application.
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2015-12-05T01:01:13Z rick-mon`: anyone in here using zpb-ttf to render fonts into an sdl opengl window?
2015-12-05T01:02:35Z drmeister: If I have a string that contains an entire text file, how do I find the end of line from a specific character position?
2015-12-05T01:02:55Z drmeister: (position #\return buffer :start index)  isn't working.
2015-12-05T01:04:22Z drmeister: #\Newline?  #\linefeed?
2015-12-05T01:04:55Z Bicyclidine: i would try #\newline, at least.
2015-12-05T01:05:10Z rick-mon`: the only way I manage to do it currently is by wrapping each individual frame's rendering call in zpb-ttf:with-font-loader macro.  Pretty sure this is not the right way...
2015-12-05T01:05:32Z |3b|: isoraqathedh: .dll should work, needs to match 32/64bit of lisp implementation you are using, and either be in one of the paths windows searches or a path cffi is configured to look in
2015-12-05T01:05:47Z isoraqathedh: Hm…
2015-12-05T01:06:49Z isoraqathedh: What function is CFFI using in order to find the file? M-. chasing gets me nowhere, but I'm not the best at reading code.
2015-12-05T01:10:28Z |3b|: whatever the implementation uses, which seems to be LoadLibraryA on windows sbcl, probably similar on other windows implementations
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2015-12-05T01:13:03Z nyef: Note that LoadLibraryA doesn't work for unicode-enabled libraries. For that you'd need to use LoadLibraryW. (kidding.)
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2015-12-05T01:15:46Z drmeister: #\newline did the job - thank you.
2015-12-05T01:16:01Z PuercoPop: drmeister: I think you are forgetting to specify :test #'char=
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2015-12-05T01:16:45Z drmeister: PuercoPop: I am forgetting to do that.
2015-12-05T01:17:29Z isoraqathedh: Ah great, I was being a dumb and thought I downloaded the x64 when I actually downloaded the x86 twice.
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2015-12-05T01:17:49Z rick-mon`: my application has to co-exist with a system that's running very low-latency realtime audio - currently suspect the font-loader is thrashing the disk when re-instantiated every video frame & intermittently causing audio dropouts...
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2015-12-05T01:21:29Z isoraqathedh: The error message is a little confusing then, since it led me to thinking it wants an x86…
2015-12-05T01:21:44Z isoraqathedh: But then again I might be misinterpreting what "Win32" means.
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2015-12-05T01:34:14Z jonaqua: hi people, I am a newbie in lisp. I read in Paul Graham's ACL that there is actually a type declaration in Lisp. I would like to ask if you guys use that often?
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2015-12-05T01:34:53Z jonaqua: Becasue I see that it looks a bit like haskell in the sense that one can define a new type which takes other types as arguments.
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2015-12-05T01:39:03Z Bicyclidine: god damn, why do they do that.
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2015-12-05T01:46:10Z pjb: Bicyclidine: it's worse: they probably kill emacs between editing two files!
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2015-12-05T01:50:08Z Bicyclidine: jonaqua: hello again. so, yes, i use deftype often, as most people probably do, but it's not quite like haskell - it's more of a macro mechanism.
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2015-12-05T01:53:17Z jonaqua: Bicyclidine: Thanks. I have been reading books about lisps recently and now I'm reading haskell so I am trying to see the similarity  because I saw some people claimed that haskell is actually lisp in disguise
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2015-12-05T01:53:51Z Bicyclidine: people say that about everything. it's kind of a dull thing to say. haskell is fine as haskell without also being lisp.
2015-12-05T01:54:11Z pjb: jonaqua: definiting types in lisp is basically a useless activity.  More like documentation than anything else, really.
2015-12-05T01:54:45Z pjb: Even more useless to define function types in lisp…
2015-12-05T01:54:51Z Bicyclidine: what a negative nancy
2015-12-05T01:55:27Z pjb: I've never seen a programming language implement a function from a type definition.
2015-12-05T01:55:29Z jonaqua: pjb: But I thought it can help the effiency of the program by giving the compiler some hints?
2015-12-05T01:55:45Z pjb: Function types only define families of functions, so they're useless.
2015-12-05T01:55:56Z Bicyclidine: uh, what?
2015-12-05T01:56:08Z jonaqua: BTW it's so cool to be able to talk to other lispers. It's my first time using IRC LOL
2015-12-05T01:56:12Z Bicyclidine: jonaqua: they can, yes. they can also function in/as assertions to help correctness.
2015-12-05T01:56:33Z pjb: jonaqua: either the compiler is able to infer the type itself, so there's no gain to be obtained, or it still has to check the type at run-time (most of the time in lisp anyways), so it's still entirely useless.
2015-12-05T01:57:20Z Bicyclidine: having to check types doesn't make optimizations useless. you can have large blocks that assume type information or even use specialized representations.
2015-12-05T01:57:49Z pjb: Well, notice how assertions are a run-time feature, really.  So yes you could use deftype and use the defined type in check-type.  But it is entirely a run-time notion, and it's not that useful.
2015-12-05T01:58:46Z Bicyclidine: (progn (check-type x float) ...arithmetic code...) could be compiled as (progn (check-type x float) (let ((x (float-bits-unsafe x))) ...arithmetic code...))
2015-12-05T01:58:53Z pjb: I mean, people who use deftype can infer and track the run-time types in their head, (so checking is always valid), and people who don't can't (and without check, the program is never invalid).
2015-12-05T01:59:27Z pjb: Bicyclidine: yes.
2015-12-05T01:59:37Z Bicyclidine: but this is useless?
2015-12-05T01:59:52Z pjb: Well, already float is a union of 4 different types in CL…
2015-12-05T02:00:03Z pjb: In clisp, one of them is even dynamically modifiable.
2015-12-05T02:00:17Z Bicyclidine: so make it single-float? come on man.
2015-12-05T02:00:20Z pjb: So, the compiler still have to call generic function.
2015-12-05T02:00:25Z pjb: Ok.
2015-12-05T02:00:45Z pjb: So that would be about the only case, for very these simple basic types.
2015-12-05T02:01:35Z jonaqua: Ah ha, I see. So pjb is saying because of 2 reasons deftype is not too usefull: 1. the compiler will infer the type. 2. at runtime things are still modified
2015-12-05T02:01:40Z Bicyclidine: well there you have it, all you can do is use unwrapped machine arithmetic in a dynamic language with one annotation, totally worthless.
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2015-12-05T02:03:01Z pjb: jonaqua: there's actually a more fundamental reason.  It's that defining or declaring types doesn't let the compiler do the programmer's job.
2015-12-05T02:03:30Z Bicyclidine: it's not modification, it's that most lisp types don't correspond to representations easily.
2015-12-05T02:03:51Z jonaqua: pjb: really? I thought it exposes some bug at compile time to let the programmer see it
2015-12-05T02:03:52Z pjb: Yes, and then there's the class vs. type dichotomy :-)
2015-12-05T02:04:03Z Bicyclidine: like, a common type is list, which is (or cons null), and cons and null are pretty distinct, so you're going to represent it as a boxed object (T) despite the type restriction.
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2015-12-05T02:04:52Z Bicyclidine: what it does do is let you move up assertions (or elide them, in unsafe code) so that later code can be simpler; like, if the compiler knows something is a list, it knows that taking the CAR of it won't be an error.
2015-12-05T02:05:13Z pjb: jonaqua: my position is that static typing (compilation-time type inference and type checks) are a good thing for newbie programmers. I'm not a newbie programmer anymore.
2015-12-05T02:06:58Z pjb: We'd dream of having more programmer initiated to programming using lisp, but really, I'm not sure it would be such a good idea.  Lisp is probably more of a seasonned programmer programming language.  I'd let newbies start with Modula-2, or even Haskell, and when they've got some experience and hit the wall a few times, they'd upgrade to lisp.
2015-12-05T02:07:17Z jonaqua: pjb: haha, okay. I am still a newbie so that's why i'm always a bit worried. Anyway it's fun to be able to do programming without worrying about types at the beginning. I did Fortran and C++ before so Lisp is like a really different world for me.
2015-12-05T02:07:37Z pjb: Of course, beside the popularity problem that this implies, there's also a longevity problem, a survivor bias.
2015-12-05T02:08:06Z Bicyclidine: always good to keep in mind why lisp programmers have a reputation as elitists
2015-12-05T02:09:28Z jonaqua: I just love the language without thinking about it.
2015-12-05T02:09:41Z pjb: jonaqua: now, lisp is a good language in which you can use any programming style you want easily enough. So if you like design by contract programming (invariants, pre/post conditions), then check-type and assert will help you with that.  But since types are associated to lisp objects, not to lisp variables, it's essentially a run-time notion in lisp.  If a compiler is able to infer anything at compilation time, so good for you, but
2015-12-05T02:09:41Z pjb: don't count on it.
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2015-12-05T02:11:32Z jonaqua: pjb: I see. Lisp is really so different. But it's good to know I can use any style.
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2015-12-05T02:12:58Z jonaqua: Oh btw, I'm half way through the book "Let Over Lambda" and "On Lisp". So I am wondering how do you guys figure out new uses of macros? Do you just experiment a lot or there is actually some research site to share macro techniques?
2015-12-05T02:13:12Z Bicyclidine: "new uses"?
2015-12-05T02:13:17Z Bicyclidine: like, new places to use them?
2015-12-05T02:14:28Z jonaqua: I mean. At first I thought macro is text substitution. Then later I learned that it's code generation. Then later I saw it can actually embed other languages. Then I learned that I can even imitate object system with it. So I am wondering whether there are other "uses".
2015-12-05T02:14:31Z pjb: jonaqua: for example, if you're interested in formal verification/proof of lisp programs, you might have a look at ACL2 which is based on Common Lisp.
2015-12-05T02:15:12Z Bicyclidine: jonaqua: it's pretty much the same as functions, you see something and decide "oh i should write a function" or "oh i should write a macro". and then if it could be useful to others you throw it in a library and put it online somewhere.
2015-12-05T02:15:13Z pjb: With acl2, the system can indeed infer and prove interesting properties of your programs (but on the other hand, it uses a subset of CL).
2015-12-05T02:16:21Z Bicyclidine: for example, there's an 'iterate' library that provides a macro that gives you a DSL for loopy code.
2015-12-05T02:17:24Z pjb: There are really several uses for macros.  Simple "text substitution" kinds of macro (often they can be avoided in CL using some other CL notion).  Repeatitive code or boilerplate code generation (those macros can also often be implemented as higher order functions, but even in this case, we often use a macro to provide a nice API to those HOF).
2015-12-05T02:17:29Z jonaqua: Bicyclidine: When I was reading Let Over Lambda I had a bit of mind blown moments becuase the author showed some uses I haven't imagined before. So this makes me wonder whatelse macros can do other than make them write functions for us.
2015-12-05T02:18:12Z pjb: And there are macros that are more like mini-compilers for DSL (Domain Specific Languages).
2015-12-05T02:18:25Z jonaqua: pjb: yes i'm looking at the acl2 demo. it's pretty cool!
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2015-12-05T02:19:24Z pjb: Personnaly, I wouldn't exactly define LOOP or ITERATE as DSL.  They're in the same category of macros as COND or DEFUN, ie. they define lisp control structures, without really inventing a new language.
2015-12-05T02:19:30Z Bicyclidine: jonaqua: i mean, 'code generation' is a fine way to look at it, it's just that code generation can do a lot of things.
2015-12-05T02:19:57Z Bicyclidine: and most of the really complex macros are defined as independent functions, which the macro lets run in service of the compiler.
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2015-12-05T02:20:12Z pjb: If the domain you're considering in your DSL is the domain (or a subdomain) of the algorithmic programming, then lisp is your algorithmic programming language, and you're just extending lisp with a trivial control structure.
2015-12-05T02:20:24Z pjb: Not really a "DSL" in my book.
2015-12-05T02:21:11Z Bicyclidine: i don't know let over lambda except for doing nonconforming things with backquotes. for imitating object systems i'm not totally sure what you mean; you can traditionally do that with closures or with vectors with wraps over them or with bla bla bla.
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2015-12-05T02:23:29Z pjb: The problem with DSL macros, is that they may require quite some specialized knowledge about compilation algorithms and code generation.   Lately I had a look at a (unfinished) book about SQL compilation, (you know, query/joint optimization/scheduling, etc), and it was already more than 800 pages with only 1/4 written.  So I think I won't implement a database/SQL-like DSL anytime soon.
2015-12-05T02:24:01Z marian_: does anyone why timezones in local-time package don't belong to the timestamp, but need to be passed around
2015-12-05T02:24:03Z jonaqua: 800 pages....
2015-12-05T02:24:22Z marian_: when doing timeshift calculations, formatting, etc
2015-12-05T02:24:30Z pjb: unfinished.  This is quite a nice domain to study, when you're young. :-)
2015-12-05T02:24:45Z PuercoPop: Bicyclidine: LoL uses a term 'sublexical'-scoping or something (Maybe pandoric). Meaning the lexical scope of purposely communicating through unhygenic macros iirc.
2015-12-05T02:25:18Z Bicyclidine: sounds strange.
2015-12-05T02:25:31Z pjb: jonaqua: but one place where macros are nice, is when you can map some declarative form to one or more lisp definitions (classes, variables, functions, etc).
2015-12-05T02:25:36Z jonaqua: PuercoPop: That is exactly where I am at the moment and I cannot quite understand what he means by sub-lexical scope.
2015-12-05T02:26:36Z PuercoPop: It is strange.
2015-12-05T02:26:50Z pjb: jonaqua: for example, I have a set of defelement/defattribute macros to generate a HTML parser, and another set of defelement/defattribute macros to generate a HTML generator.  Then I can compile the same source file containing the definition of HTML 4.01 expressed with those defelement and defattribute forms, and they generate a parser or a generator.
2015-12-05T02:27:17Z Bicyclidine: is it like replacing compiler-let with symbol-macrolet and macroexpand, or what
2015-12-05T02:28:27Z PuercoPop: Sec I'll look it up to see if I refresh my memory
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2015-12-05T02:31:51Z PuercoPop: jonaqua: Btw, don't worry about it, Lisp is plenty useful w/o sub-lexical macros :D. LoL references some nice papers though, check them out if you can
2015-12-05T02:32:43Z jonaqua: pjb: Wow, and damn, so much to learn, so little time.
2015-12-05T02:33:48Z jonaqua: PuercoPop: I kind of give up on LoL at the moment and focus on "On Lisp". Maybe I will have a better understanding after I finish On lisp
2015-12-05T02:34:20Z PuercoPop: Bicyclidine: ok, so he says that because when you *inject* variables through macros there is no textual reference to the variable it is not lexical scope but sub-lexical scope
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2015-12-05T02:36:04Z pjb: jonaqua: a nice introduction to lisp macros is Casting Spels in Lisp  Conrad Barski, M.D.  http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html
2015-12-05T02:36:19Z pjb: nice and small.
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2015-12-05T02:37:02Z Bicyclidine: PuercoPop: well, now i've moved from not knowing what "sublexical" means to not knowing what "inject" means.
2015-12-05T02:37:59Z PuercoPop: Bicyclidine: anaphoric macros for example inject the symbol it to the scope
2015-12-05T02:38:17Z Bicyclidine: ...is that not a textual reference?
2015-12-05T02:38:51Z Bicyclidine: and how is putting something in the lexical scope "sublexical"? if i had to call it anything it would be "lexical"
2015-12-05T02:38:56Z Bicyclidine: well. i know you're not the writer.
2015-12-05T02:38:58Z jonaqua: pjb: WOW, a new book!!! I just read Land of Lisp last month!
2015-12-05T02:39:15Z pjb: jonaqua: oh, and despite what we told earlier, you can have fun with deftype and check-type at will. (but much more careful with type declarations however, they don't do what you think they do).
2015-12-05T02:39:25Z jonaqua: Anyone think of the "music video" whenever you think of Land of Lisp? I do!
2015-12-05T02:39:48Z pjb: jonaqua: notably, the type specifier satisfies is quite fun.
2015-12-05T02:40:09Z pjb: jonaqua: deftype is really like defmacro, you can have macro-expansion-time processing in it.
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2015-12-05T02:41:07Z Bicyclidine: i wonder how stupid it would be to consider haskell's type-level evaluation as strict and lisp's as normal
2015-12-05T02:41:30Z pjb: jonaqua: see for example 3 types I defined this week: http://paste.lisp.org/+3JJU
2015-12-05T02:41:33Z jonaqua: BTW I have a gap in the understanding of macro expansion.
2015-12-05T02:41:53Z PuercoPop: He is saying that because there is no text binding the it, but the reference is in the macro expansion it is not textual. And that because "lexical scope means the name is applicable to code in the textual body of a binding construct such as let" the scope injected by expanding a macro is not lexical. (Btw I'm not saying I'm agreeing with him, just trying to represent his viewpoint)
2015-12-05T02:41:56Z pjb: jonaqua: they're used to declare the type of slots in classes (and ccl does check them when we set the slots).
2015-12-05T02:42:49Z Bicyclidine: PuercoPop: i know you're not, just, this does not make a ton of sense.
2015-12-05T02:42:50Z PuercoPop: iirc he then uses them in 'useful' 'pandoric' macros so it is not just arguing for arguing sake. (I don't remember either what they were)
2015-12-05T02:42:58Z jonaqua: So my understanding is that I can defmacro and then use it like a function Then when the reader reads it, it expands the macro before handing it to the evaluator. But somehow the "#." read macro is different. I tried the experiment in LoL and found that the reader reads the already expanded form.
2015-12-05T02:43:27Z Bicyclidine: reader doesn't know about macros.
2015-12-05T02:43:34Z pjb: jonaqua: I could have defined relation-to as: http://paste.lisp.org/+3JJU/1
2015-12-05T02:43:43Z Bicyclidine: it goes reader -> compiler/macroexpansion -> eval, and macros are in the second step. read macros are in the first.
2015-12-05T02:43:51Z pjb: jonaqua: no, macros cannot be used as functions.
2015-12-05T02:43:57Z pjb: jonaqua: they can be used as special operators.
2015-12-05T02:44:24Z pjb: jonaqua: the evaluation rule of functions is easy: evaluate the arguments from left to right, find the function, call it with the values of the arguments.
2015-12-05T02:44:47Z pjb: jonaqua: for special operators and macros, the rule is more complex, it is given by the special operator or the macro itself.
2015-12-05T02:45:21Z pjb: jonaqua: the body of the macro processes the _source_ of the arguments, and producers a new source expression to be compiled in place of the macro application.
2015-12-05T02:46:17Z pjb: jonaqua: and yes, reader macros are used by the reader, to scan specific syntaxes, when reading.
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2015-12-05T02:47:01Z pjb: jonaqua: and there are also compiler-macros, which are called to process function calls, so that you may actually generate more efficient code or perform some other processing at compilation time, on the calls of a given function.
2015-12-05T02:48:36Z pjb: [text]-->(reader(calls reader macros))-->[sexp]-->(compiler [sexp]-->(calls macros)-->[sexp]-->(calls compiler-macros)-->[sexp])-->[compiled functions]
2015-12-05T02:48:48Z jonaqua: Yes I know that macros are not functions. Sorry for the confusion. It's just that my mental picture is that the reader calls someone to do something when a macro is in the code. Then that someone expands it. And then the expanded code is handed to eval. But read macro looks different. It's as if that someone expands it before reader sees it.
2015-12-05T02:49:38Z pjb: The reader doesn't process macros (doesn't call them). It only calls the reader macros.  The reader is used to read data, not code.
2015-12-05T02:49:56Z pjb: (actually, there's no code in lisp, only data; lisp code is just lisp data).
2015-12-05T02:50:30Z pjb: For example, 42. is read as the integer 42, it's lisp data. It can also be evaluated as lisp code (eval '42.) #| --> 42 |#
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2015-12-05T02:51:23Z pjb: But you cannot "compile" 42.  You can only compile lambda expressions (functions): (compile nil '(lambda () 42.)) #| --> #<Anonymous Function #x30200397CB1F> ; nil ; nil |#  (funcall (compile nil '(lambda () 42.))) #| --> 42 |#
2015-12-05T02:52:09Z pjb: jonaqua: what you have in mind, and you should not confuse it into an indistinct ball of mud, is the REPL: Read Eval Print Loop: (loop (print (eval (read))))
2015-12-05T02:52:34Z pjb: jonaqua: try it: (loop (print (eval (read)))) RET (+ 1 2) RET (* 3 4) RET (defun f () 42) RET (f) RET
2015-12-05T02:52:45Z pjb: C-c C-c to exit this infinite loop ;-)
2015-12-05T02:52:54Z PuercoPop: Well from skimming the section on pandoric macros I don't seem to remember clearly what they were. It appears related to accessing the scope of closures. Fun fact, just read the author talking about writing in *portable* common lisp.
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2015-12-05T02:53:42Z pjb: jonaqua: The CL standard REPL is a little more sophisticated, including an error handler, printing of a prompt, and printing of multiple resulting values. But it's basically the same (loop(print(eval(read)))) thing.
2015-12-05T02:53:43Z PuercoPop: jonaqua: If you want a well-written clearly explained CL checkout Norvig's PAIP. The main value proposition of LoL is the ranty style of writing.
2015-12-05T02:55:07Z jonaqua: PuercoPop: Yeah, I saw lots of people commenting on LoL's weird attitude. PAIP is my next to-read. People claims it's the best book on computer programming.
2015-12-05T02:56:06Z PuercoPop: imh it is at least one of the most easy to understand due to being so well written.
2015-12-05T02:56:12Z jonaqua: pjb: I can make sense of the read-eval-print loop without the concept of macro. I can still understand it when only a "normal" macro is involved. But then now read macro is just weird and I don't know where to fit it in my picture.
2015-12-05T02:56:12Z pjb: Yes, when he does lisp, Norvig's good.
2015-12-05T02:56:19Z Bicyclidine: i wouldn't say it's the best but it's defs good.
2015-12-05T02:56:42Z pjb: jonaqua: well, the reader macro is a function that is called by READ, not by EVAL.
2015-12-05T02:56:50Z Bicyclidine: jonaqua: the parser. which you don't uuslaly write in the metacircular evaluator you've hopefully written or read.
2015-12-05T02:57:15Z pjb: eval can be implemented as (defun eval (sexp) (funcall (compile nil `(lambda () ,sexp))))
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2015-12-05T02:57:53Z pjb: So eval like compile will call macroexpand to expand the macros, and will also call the compiler-macros, before generating the code of the function, and calling it.
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2015-12-05T02:58:30Z pjb: jonaqua: check the chapter 2 of CLHS, it gives the reader algorithm (IIRC, there are only 2 algorithms given in CLHS).
2015-12-05T03:00:30Z pjb: jonaqua: basically, it collects the constituent character to make a token (integer, floats, and symbols), and when it sees another character, then it calls a reader macros to scan it.  The basic lisp syntax such as: ' ( ; " `  are reader macros, and # introduce  the standard dispatching reader macros such as #' #( #A #B #O #X #R #P etc
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2015-12-05T03:01:11Z pjb: The thing, is that apart from reading the integers, floats and symbols, all the rest of the CL syntax is customizable, by installing or removing reader macros from the *readtable*.
2015-12-05T03:02:46Z pjb: There's a little complexity in the reader algorithm to process correctly the constituent characters (they have character traits), to decide whether the token is a symbol or a number: |42| is read as a symbol named "42", just like 4\2, while 42 could be read as a symbol or as a number, depending on *read-base*, and while 42. would be read as an integer in base ten.
2015-12-05T03:03:10Z pjb: But apart from that, you could implement the lisp reader in a single function of half a dozen lines.
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2015-12-05T03:07:02Z jonaqua: pjb: Sorry for not responding for a while but I am still reading CLHS's reader algorithm.
2015-12-05T03:11:00Z jonaqua: 11:10 *** 315 #lisp End of /WHO list.
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2015-12-05T03:19:47Z pjb: jonaqua: of course, you can then read the implementation of the reader in the various implementations (just type read M-. in slime), or a standalone implementation such as: com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader:read
2015-12-05T03:20:06Z pjb: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp) RET com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader:read M-.
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2015-12-05T03:41:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-05T03:43:43Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-12-05T03:44:12Z blub: hi beach
2015-12-05T03:49:41Z beach: Don't tell me I missed all the fun again.
2015-12-05T03:50:05Z Bicyclidine: for some definition of "fun"
2015-12-05T03:50:43Z beach: Bicyclidine: I think I understand what your library is doing.  I will definitely take a closer look when I get back into type inference and stuff like that.
2015-12-05T03:50:51Z beach: What is the license you have in mind?
2015-12-05T03:51:04Z Bicyclidine: public domain
2015-12-05T03:51:28Z beach: Great!
2015-12-05T03:52:19Z Bicyclidine: What I want to do, beyond just the type system, is have real types for functions, and I think in general the full type of a function is a function from types to types. so that's a lot more work that will probably be another library anyway.
2015-12-05T03:52:47Z beach: I see.  I think that will be very useful.
2015-12-05T03:52:52Z Bicyclidine: CL function types are kinda weird.
2015-12-05T03:52:58Z beach: I know.
2015-12-05T03:53:05Z beach: I don't remember seeing a canonical representation of types.  Did you define one?
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2015-12-05T03:53:34Z Bicyclidine: type specifiers are parsed into objects, or do you mean how or/and/not are collapsed and stuff?
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2015-12-05T03:54:19Z Bicyclidine: well, i should probably define whether (integer 4 4) is an eql-type or an interval-type and stuff, and actually write the definition somewhere.
2015-12-05T03:54:30Z beach: I mean, is there a single representation for a particular type so that type equality can be a syntactic comparison.  Modulo the usual caveats of course.
2015-12-05T03:54:35Z nyef: Is there a difference between BIT and (UNSIGNED-BYTE 1)?
2015-12-05T03:54:57Z Bicyclidine: right now they're both (integer 0 1).
2015-12-05T03:54:57Z beach: Yes, that.
2015-12-05T03:55:13Z Bicyclidine: but since objects are just made willy-nilly they wouldn't be eql. i could have caching...
2015-12-05T03:55:18Z beach: Bicyclidine: What about AND/OR, are they turned into an OR of ANDs?
2015-12-05T03:55:27Z nyef: Or if you construct the union (OR) of a complete partition of some type?
2015-12-05T03:55:46Z Bicyclidine: beach: yes.
2015-12-05T03:55:55Z beach: OK, I'll have a look.
2015-12-05T03:56:20Z Bicyclidine: nyef: that one i don't have. would have to include more information, which i suppose i should. (i've been comparing with the sb-kernel functions as i go)
2015-12-05T03:56:39Z beach: I think Baker is right that canonicalizing is not useful for subtypep (unless the type is a constant), but for things like type inference it is useful.
2015-12-05T03:58:19Z nyef: Bicyclidine: Be very careful with using the SBCL type system as a model. We've had some fairly spectacular bugs found in it over the years, and I've yet to see any proof that there aren't more.
2015-12-05T03:58:24Z Bicyclidine: actually i guess it wouldn't be that hard to do exhaustive partitions. but i don't think the clhs has an exhaustive list of exhaustive partitions
2015-12-05T03:59:02Z Bicyclidine: nyef: yeah, when i get around to tests i'll be using ccl and sbcl bug reports :p
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2015-12-05T04:01:02Z nyef: The one where it turned out that all of the array stuff had been completely wrong for years with nobody noticing was fairly impressive, for example.
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2015-12-05T04:06:30Z namespace is currently using Fukamachi's prove as a test framework, realizes he doesn't really know how to test the tests
2015-12-05T04:06:55Z namespace: How does that proof go that you need more bits of proof than program?
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2015-12-05T04:16:44Z beach: Bicyclidine: Did you have any particular use in mind for your type system implementation?
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2015-12-05T04:18:39Z Bicyclidine: mainly type inference. it would be nice if it could be useful to an implementation, too. i was kind of thinking of abcl's typep and subtypep, which were pretty basic last i looked
2015-12-05T04:19:12Z beach: I see.
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2015-12-05T04:22:48Z beach: Do you take contributions, in case I come up with something useful?
2015-12-05T04:23:10Z Bicyclidine: sure.
2015-12-05T04:23:45Z beach: Great!  I am not saying I will, but in case I think of something.
2015-12-05T04:31:24Z nanomonkey:  /quit
2015-12-05T04:31:33Z nanomonkey: oye
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2015-12-05T06:04:22Z namespace: (maphash #'(lambda (k v) v) count-table)
2015-12-05T06:04:37Z namespace: Assume a normal hash table, why does this return nil?
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2015-12-05T06:06:53Z blub: namespace: maphash always returns nil
2015-12-05T06:07:00Z namespace: Ah.
2015-12-05T06:07:02Z blub: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_maphas.htm
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2015-12-05T06:07:52Z blub: (loop for value being the hash-values of h collecting value) would work
2015-12-05T06:10:30Z namespace: Thanks.
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2015-12-05T07:26:29Z kami: Good morning.
2015-12-05T07:26:40Z sid_cypher: morning^^
2015-12-05T07:26:58Z blub: hi kami sid_cypher
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2015-12-05T08:22:33Z beach: Shinmera: Were you saying Paul Graham implemented Clojure?
2015-12-05T08:23:02Z beach: I know he did Arc, but I didn't think he was involved in Clojure.
2015-12-05T08:23:35Z Shinmera: Err he didn't actually
2015-12-05T08:23:40Z Shinmera: I was misremembering
2015-12-05T08:23:46Z beach: Ah, OK.
2015-12-05T08:23:55Z Shinmera: My mind doesn't work well after midnight :(
2015-12-05T08:24:06Z beach: That makes two of us then.
2015-12-05T08:24:09Z Shinmera: But that it was first written in CL as a prototype-- that much is true at least.
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2015-12-05T08:24:46Z ralt: hi
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2015-12-05T08:25:11Z ralt: how do I know where a system is? I have loaded it through ql:quickload, and want to double check that it's local package, is there a way to do that?
2015-12-05T08:25:41Z Shinmera: (ql:where-is-system :foo)
2015-12-05T08:25:54Z ralt: well :)
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2015-12-05T08:26:02Z ralt: thank you very much.
2015-12-05T08:26:15Z Shinmera: Or (asdf:system-source-directory :foo)
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2015-12-05T09:05:58Z beach: OK, I think I finally know how to turn the buffer code of Second Climacs (now in the Cluffer repository) into a library with an acceptable object-oriented design.
2015-12-05T09:06:04Z beach: I started transforming Cluffer according to these ideas, but it will take me another few days to do, and probably a bit more to get the documentation into an acceptable state: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2015-12-05T09:06:43Z beach: It seems to always take me at least 2 or 3 attempts to get an acceptable design.
2015-12-05T09:06:55Z beach: I wonder whether others have the same problem, or whether it is just me.
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2015-12-05T09:07:55Z Shinmera: I usually end up with at least one rewrite of a project after a while too.
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2015-12-05T09:08:32Z Shinmera: Some things take more rewrites than others. Radiance is the sixth rewrite of my web framework project.
2015-12-05T09:08:33Z beach: Must be a law of nature.
2015-12-05T09:11:25Z beach: Often I *think* I have an acceptable design, only to discover when looking at it later that it needs a complete rewrite to be acceptable.
2015-12-05T09:11:47Z beach: Oh, well.  Not a big deal I guess.
2015-12-05T09:12:34Z Shinmera: It is a big deal for companies with huge applications because they often don't want to spend the money on a rewrite. :/
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2015-12-05T09:17:12Z jackdaniel: "Perfect is the enemy of good" – François-Marie Arouet
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2015-12-05T09:17:46Z Shinmera: "Just because it's a quote doesn't make it true or even particularly wise" - Someone, probably
2015-12-05T09:18:15Z jackdaniel: I've quoted it because I consider it wise. I'm sure that there are quotes I would disagree with
2015-12-05T09:19:37Z beach: jackdaniel: Though, in the cases I referred to, it wasn't even "good".
2015-12-05T09:19:56Z beach: So "good" is not the enemy of "bad".
2015-12-05T09:20:12Z jackdaniel: beach: yeah, I've just referred to endless rewriting (like 6 times). I find myself rewriting the first version quite often too.
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2015-12-05T09:20:53Z jackdaniel: I'd say that "good enough for me is the enemy of good at all" :)
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2015-12-05T09:21:36Z jackdaniel: maybe a bad wording on this one. s/good enough/good for me/
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2015-12-05T09:22:19Z Shinmera: We could easily get into the old "Worse is better/worse" debate all over, but I think at this point it's beating a dead horse.
2015-12-05T09:23:38Z jackdaniel: it's not about "worse is better", but sure, you may think that. I'm going to read a little. Have a nice day :)
2015-12-05T09:26:08Z clique: "March ör Die", Motorhead
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2015-12-05T09:30:28Z namespace: Scope question: In a map statement can you have side effects that affect things in the calling scope?
2015-12-05T09:31:13Z Shinmera: If you have a closure that has access to those variables, or special bindings, sure.
2015-12-05T09:31:58Z Shinmera: (let ((c 0)) (mapc (lambda (el) (incf c el)) '(1 2 3 4)) c) => 10
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2015-12-05T10:03:25Z oleo: morning
2015-12-05T10:03:46Z blub: hi oleo
2015-12-05T10:03:54Z oleo: hellooo
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2015-12-05T13:45:38Z shka: how do you guys handle lack of next method in clos?
2015-12-05T13:45:49Z shka: right now I'm just creating base classes
2015-12-05T13:45:56Z shka: and implement methods that do nothing
2015-12-05T13:48:31Z PuercoPop: shka: lack of next method? There (call-next-method) afaik
2015-12-05T13:49:01Z shka: hmmm
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2015-12-05T13:49:07Z blub: shka: what do you mean
2015-12-05T13:49:26Z shka: i mean that if i (call-next-method) but there is no next method
2015-12-05T13:49:36Z shka: sbcl raises condition
2015-12-05T13:50:39Z blub: oh, it calls no-next-method
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2015-12-05T13:50:52Z blub: a generic function
2015-12-05T13:51:08Z shka: aha?
2015-12-05T13:51:36Z blub: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_no_nex.htm#no-next-method
2015-12-05T13:51:50Z PuercoPop: shka: are you calling always (call-next-method)? What are you trying to do?
2015-12-05T13:51:57Z shka: ha! that makes a lot more sense now
2015-12-05T13:52:01Z shka: thanks
2015-12-05T13:52:01Z dwchandler: specifically, for no-next-method "The system-supplied method on no-next-method signals an error of type error."
2015-12-05T13:52:56Z shka: PuercoPop: multiple inheritance sometimes means that i have no idea if method is always the last one
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2015-12-05T13:53:06Z dwchandler: shka: I'm curious about why you want to call-next-method when you don't have any.
2015-12-05T13:53:11Z shka: well, that plus how generic functions works
2015-12-05T13:53:42Z dwchandler: hrm
2015-12-05T13:53:57Z shka: i meah that:
2015-12-05T13:54:11Z shka: if i assume that this the last method
2015-12-05T13:54:26Z shka: it can bite me in the ass
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2015-12-05T13:54:46Z shka: since class be inherited
2015-12-05T13:54:49Z PuercoPop: I normally don't call-next-method except on :around methods.
2015-12-05T13:55:07Z shka: yeah, i undertand that
2015-12-05T13:55:24Z PuercoPop: shka: not really, :around/:before/:after are called always.
2015-12-05T13:55:36Z shka: i know
2015-12-05T13:55:58Z shka: i just happen to (call-next-method) ;-)
2015-12-05T13:55:59Z dwchandler: is this useful? http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_next_m.htm#next-method-p
2015-12-05T13:56:32Z shka: dwchandler: kinda, but manual checking can grow boring
2015-12-05T13:56:59Z nyef: ISTM that if you don't know if your method is the last one to be called or not, your protocol isn't designed very well.
2015-12-05T13:57:24Z dwchandler: If only there were a way to abstract that manual checking somehow :p
2015-12-05T13:58:14Z shka: nyef: mixins
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2015-12-05T13:58:31Z nyef: So?
2015-12-05T13:58:42Z shka: ok, that was stupid
2015-12-05T13:58:52Z shka: nyef: you have point here
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2015-12-05T14:13:55Z epsylon: hello lel
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2015-12-05T14:56:32Z pjb: jackdaniel: François-Marie Arouet was also known as Voltaire, one of the worst person of the universe.
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2015-12-05T14:58:12Z jackdaniel: pjb: I'm aware of his pseudonym, yet I strongly disagree with your judgment about him
2015-12-05T14:58:19Z blub: i dont think hes that bad..
2015-12-05T14:59:20Z pjb: He was racist, he had competing authors emprisonned, he was a liar, (contrarily to what he said, that he'd fight to have them speak what they wanted), etc.
2015-12-05T14:59:52Z pjb: blub: It's the sign of Satan, of being all light and speaking/writing well, but spreading bad ideas.
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2015-12-05T15:00:32Z pjb: He had shares in slave corporations.
2015-12-05T15:00:33Z jackdaniel: I'll keep my disagreement refraining myself from further discussion :)
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2015-12-05T15:01:27Z pjb: I know that he's highly regarded outside of France (and by leftists inside of France), because only a filtered version is published, but you should know him better…
2015-12-05T15:04:45Z blub: es-tu français
2015-12-05T15:04:57Z pjb: Yes.
2015-12-05T15:05:11Z blub: oh
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2015-12-05T15:53:52Z lieven: lol Joseph de Maistre is alive and kicking
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2015-12-05T17:12:53Z shka: looking for example of how to use clod
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2015-12-05T17:24:20Z edgar-rft: shka: never used clod myself, but there is some text under <http://quickdocs.org/clod/api>
2015-12-05T17:24:34Z shka: edgar-rft: thanks, seen that
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2015-12-05T17:24:43Z shka: i was just wondering what result looks like
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2015-12-05T18:10:51Z shka: uh, my memory is failing me
2015-12-05T18:11:53Z shka: can somebody tell me if when dispatching multimethod call, argument that appears first on the lambda list is considered first
2015-12-05T18:11:54Z shka: right?
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2015-12-05T18:12:04Z shka: so code like
2015-12-05T18:12:06Z pjb: basically ues.
2015-12-05T18:12:28Z pjb: Basically yes.  But it's more complex than that.
2015-12-05T18:13:02Z pjb: clhs compute-applicable-method
2015-12-05T18:13:03Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for compute-applicable-method.
2015-12-05T18:13:09Z pjb: clhs compute-applicable-methods
2015-12-05T18:13:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comput.htm
2015-12-05T18:13:15Z pjb: specbot: really, duh!
2015-12-05T18:13:20Z shka: (defgeneric something (a b c)) (defmethod something ((a basic-a) b (c very-special-c))) (defmethod something ((a basic-a) b (c (eql nil))
2015-12-05T18:13:23Z Bike: shka: if you want to change it you can use :argument-precedence-order in the defgeneric.
2015-12-05T18:13:40Z shka: Bike: i don't want to do it
2015-12-05T18:13:44Z Bike: ok.
2015-12-05T18:13:56Z shka: i just want to be sure that i remember this correctly
2015-12-05T18:14:16Z pjb: Check 7.6.6 Method Selection and Combination
2015-12-05T18:14:28Z Bike: so, if those are the two methods, first it checks a, and since they have the same specializer it goes to b. since those have the same specializer it goes to c, and whichever one c is will be the method called.
2015-12-05T18:14:59Z pjb: :argument-precedence-order is nice because you give the exact order of arguments you want :-)
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2015-12-05T18:15:24Z shka: Bike: thanks, now i remember
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2015-12-05T18:31:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to tell if a symbol is external in a package?
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2015-12-05T18:32:06Z Jonsky: (symbol-package)?
2015-12-05T18:32:09Z Shinmera: find-symbol's second value will tell you.
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2015-12-05T18:32:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks
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2015-12-05T19:22:36Z phoe_krk: Does there exist a Lisp utility that, given a list of values of mixed type, invoked in a way similar to (from *list* get fifth string) will return the fifth string it finds?
2015-12-05T19:22:58Z phoe_krk: I mean, there can be any number of values of any other type in between the strings.
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2015-12-05T19:24:00Z phoe_krk: I ask because I feel like writing one and don't want to duplicate something that already exists.
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2015-12-05T19:29:20Z Bike: (fifth (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (typep x type-of-choice)) *list* :count 5)) would do it, i think.
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2015-12-05T19:54:29Z phoe_krk: Bike, I want readability. I know that such a function will do it for me, but it has five pairs of parens while the thing I imagine has one and a sort of loop-like DSL in it.
2015-12-05T19:55:42Z Bike: (defmacro from (list get nth type) (declare (ignore get)) `(,nth (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (typep x ',type)) ,list))
2015-12-05T19:56:30Z Bike: but i'd just do (defun nth-of-type (n type list) ...) and then yours is (nth-of-type 5 'string *list*).
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2015-12-05T20:14:44Z LiamH: Does anyone know of a diagram illustrating "4.3.5 Determining the Class Precedence List"?
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2015-12-05T20:21:34Z phoe_krk: Bike: oh, that's sweet.
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2015-12-05T21:22:07Z jimston: hello
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2015-12-05T21:23:22Z jimston: what if I need to upgrade SBCL/CCL on a production web server? do I need to stop the SBCL/CCL instance for upgrading, or what is the "best
2015-12-05T21:23:27Z jimston: " way?
2015-12-05T21:24:24Z jackdaniel: jimston: if you want to use the newer version of them then you'll have to stop them
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2015-12-05T21:25:07Z jackdaniel: and load all the code again (at least that's what I believe, but I'm not 100% sure – saved image can't be upgraded to the newer version)
2015-12-05T21:25:09Z jimston: jackdaniel: but in case of CLISP I can just replace the interpretter, right?
2015-12-05T21:25:10Z H4ns: jimston: it is also not usually a good idea to update binaries and supporting files in place.
2015-12-05T21:25:30Z H4ns: jimston: (while applications that use them are running, that is)
2015-12-05T21:25:54Z jimston: H4ns: why not?
2015-12-05T21:26:44Z H4ns: jimston: even with clisp, overwriting the binary while it is running can cause problems.  it really depends on how you upgrade.  but also consider extra files that are replaced in the upgrade.  if the running application loads them and they're from the new version, problems are rather likely.
2015-12-05T21:26:48Z jimston: H4ns: if I use CGI, I can just replace CGI script/compiled binary or interpreter for the script w/o stopping
2015-12-05T21:27:02Z H4ns: jimston: aha.  a cgi is not usually "running".
2015-12-05T21:27:02Z jackdaniel: jimston: I don't know about the CLISP - doesn't what you mention involve just reloading all the sources?
2015-12-05T21:27:45Z jimston: H4ns: right
2015-12-05T21:27:47Z H4ns: jimston: my advice is: don't do it.  deploy into a fresh docket container or virtual machine, then switch over in the frontend server.
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2015-12-05T21:30:11Z jimston: H4ns: but, actually, switching the container is similar to stop and start?
2015-12-05T21:30:20Z jimston: H4ns: I mean SBCL/CCL
2015-12-05T21:31:11Z H4ns: jimston: that really depends on how you organize the switchover.  if the old and new applications are backed by the same database, the switchover can be made seamless.
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2015-12-05T21:34:00Z jimston: H4ns: the reason I don't want to use docker and co because such a things is complicates maintaince
2015-12-05T21:34:15Z jimston: H4ns: I want to avoid it by using old CGI :)
2015-12-05T21:34:52Z jimston: H4ns: but SBCL/CCL has huge overhead when running as standalone executables
2015-12-05T21:34:55Z H4ns: jimston: well, there are certain measures that you need to make if you want seamless software upgrades.  but maybe it is better to just accept some downtime to simplify things.
2015-12-05T21:35:04Z H4ns: jimston: "huge overhead"?
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2015-12-05T21:36:47Z H4ns: jimston: ah.  cgi.  i have no advice if you insist on that.
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2015-12-05T21:37:35Z jimston: H4ns: yeah, compared with C. (format *standard-output* "Hello from Lisp")  compiled as standalone executable runs 30 times slower than C analogue
2015-12-05T21:38:09Z jimston: H4ns: and huge overhead of memory usage (Lisp image is very big)
2015-12-05T21:39:35Z H4ns: jimston: i know all that.  you're doing it wrong if you're restarting your lisp for every single web request.  if you cannot accept that, it will be very hard to give you any useful advice.
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2015-12-05T21:40:29Z jimston: H4ns: also, SBCL/CCL FFI is also "slow" (compared to C++ FFI) -- run-program is very slow :(
2015-12-05T21:40:50Z jimston: H4ns: compared to fork() and execve()
2015-12-05T21:41:30Z jimston: H4ns: so, what it best for me to use CL in production with minimal maintaince overhead ?
2015-12-05T21:42:10Z H4ns: jimston: you run a standalone web server (hunchentoot or something else) in your lisp image.  for upgrades, you bring it down, upgrade, then bring it back up.
2015-12-05T21:42:57Z H4ns: jimston: use a reverse proxy (i.e. varnish or nginx or apache) so that you are fleible in terms of serving some stuff from your lisp server, and some stuff from somewhere else.
2015-12-05T21:43:05Z jimston: H4ns: okay. What do you think about Hunchentoot vs FastCGI in production?
2015-12-05T21:43:15Z DeadTrickster: most of the time bringing it down is too harsh
2015-12-05T21:43:36Z H4ns: jimston: i'm not using fastcgi, so i cannot comment.  i have no use for it.
2015-12-05T21:43:43Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: why?
2015-12-05T21:43:44Z DeadTrickster: just connect to it and reevaluate changed code
2015-12-05T21:43:50Z H4ns: haha.  right.
2015-12-05T21:44:08Z DeadTrickster: that is what we are doing at least - swank tunneled over ssh
2015-12-05T21:44:26Z jimston: DeadTrickster: nice :) but what if I want to upgrade a compiler?
2015-12-05T21:44:26Z DeadTrickster: *connections to swank*
2015-12-05T21:44:29Z H4ns: i like reproducible servers.
2015-12-05T21:44:48Z DeadTrickster: H4ns, agree but hot fixes are more than welcome sometimes
2015-12-05T21:45:21Z DeadTrickster: or when I have to debug my buggy code (you know when that error happens only for this user, huh?)
2015-12-05T21:45:33Z DeadTrickster: jimston, transfer sockets
2015-12-05T21:45:42Z DeadTrickster: like nginx does for example
2015-12-05T21:45:53Z DeadTrickster: fork then replace with new image
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2015-12-05T21:46:56Z jimston: DeadTrickster: hmm. do you have an examples?
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2015-12-05T21:48:00Z DeadTrickster: jimston, sadly not now, however publishing something on github is planned
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2015-12-05T21:48:49Z jimston: DeadTrickster: what implementation you use?
2015-12-05T21:48:51Z H4ns: jimston: you can just send a SIGSTOP to your frontend server, do the upgrade, then send SIGCONT to it.
2015-12-05T21:49:14Z jimston: H4ns: aha, thanks!
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2015-12-05T21:50:24Z jimston: H4ns: what about Hunchentoot? Is it production ready? It seems, that it just a toy?
2015-12-05T21:50:37Z H4ns: jimston: what makes you think so?
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2015-12-05T21:52:08Z ralt: Xach: ping
2015-12-05T21:52:11Z jimston: H4ns: the last change in July. looks like abandoned project with very few amount of users (like experimental/prototype software)
2015-12-05T21:52:22Z DeadTrickster: jimston, sbcl
2015-12-05T21:52:46Z H4ns: jimston: it is rather stable and used in several production systems.
2015-12-05T21:53:10Z H4ns: jimston: there have been no changes because it is complete enough not requiring constant maintenance.
2015-12-05T21:53:19Z DeadTrickster: jimston, hunchentoot has it own problems but it is stable I personally oversee servers running for years now, woops
2015-12-05T21:53:51Z H4ns: jimston: maybe you should do some research and experimentation on your own.
2015-12-05T21:53:56Z DeadTrickster: jimston, however it slow and has security problems because chunga interns header names
2015-12-05T21:54:23Z ralt: I recommend not using hunchentoot for security matter if you're using sessions though, unless you make your own session subclass
2015-12-05T21:54:29Z ralt: (and know how it should be done)
2015-12-05T21:54:33Z DeadTrickster: slow probably not precise here
2015-12-05T21:54:40Z H4ns: it is slow.
2015-12-05T21:54:40Z ralt: the session ids are not secure at all
2015-12-05T21:54:43Z DeadTrickster: threaded-taskmaster is slow
2015-12-05T21:54:46Z DeadTrickster: no
2015-12-05T21:54:54Z DeadTrickster: well it is threaded )
2015-12-05T21:55:15Z jimston: so, I want to try FastCGI :)
2015-12-05T21:55:23Z H4ns: it is also slow because it uses rather slow mechanisms to parse headers and deal with chunked encoding or other parts.
2015-12-05T21:55:38Z jimston: I don't need to extend CLOS-based Hunchentoot
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2015-12-05T21:55:50Z DeadTrickster: well it can doo 2000-3000 req/sec on 5-6 years old servers
2015-12-05T21:56:04Z DeadTrickster: more than enough for us )
2015-12-05T21:56:16Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: other servers can be 4-5 times faster.
2015-12-05T21:56:41Z DeadTrickster: yea actually we have deployed handrolled one - about 20000 / sec
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2015-12-05T21:56:43Z DeadTrickster: sbcl too
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2015-12-05T21:57:14Z DeadTrickster: but again it's just a tool not complete http server implementation
2015-12-05T21:57:19Z ralt: if I find what I consider a bug in quicklisp, where should I report?
2015-12-05T21:57:36Z ralt: github?
2015-12-05T21:57:49Z DeadTrickster: leave memo for Xach_ probably
2015-12-05T21:57:54Z DeadTrickster: and github of course
2015-12-05T21:58:07Z DeadTrickster: jimston, also take a look at woo and wookie
2015-12-05T21:59:24Z shka: hunchentoot is not that slow
2015-12-05T21:59:34Z shka: faster than many other servers
2015-12-05T21:59:37Z shka: like tornado
2015-12-05T22:00:11Z shka: good night all
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2015-12-05T22:01:55Z XachX: ralt: email is ok
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2015-12-05T22:03:46Z ralt: XachX: well, too late
2015-12-05T22:03:51Z ralt: unless you want both
2015-12-05T22:03:56Z ralt: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues/125
2015-12-05T22:04:19Z XachX: That is also good
2015-12-05T22:04:23Z ralt: cool
2015-12-05T22:04:24Z ralt: ty
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2015-12-05T22:17:01Z phoe_krk: Does SBCL's garbage collection "pause the world" until it's done? Or Can I run SBCL's gc in another thread and have it occur transparently to everything else?
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2015-12-05T22:22:25Z DeadTrickster: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/gc.lisp
2015-12-05T22:25:59Z phoe_krk: (define-alien-routine gc-stop-the-world void)
2015-12-05T22:27:33Z phoe_krk: I can't see that function defined anywhere else in the repo though.
2015-12-05T22:28:04Z phoe_krk: oh, wait, it is, but as gc_stop_the_world
2015-12-05T22:28:56Z axe: the GC is written in lisp, thats cool
2015-12-05T22:29:29Z phoe_krk: axe: a good part of it
2015-12-05T22:29:39Z phoe_krk: the bottom of SBCL is C
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2015-12-05T22:30:15Z axe: i see
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2015-12-05T22:34:23Z nanomonkey: hello
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2015-12-05T23:12:57Z jimston: It seems to me CCL is more stable than SBCL. Isn't it?
2015-12-05T23:13:09Z jimston: well, more or less
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2015-12-06T00:03:59Z jimston: is CLISP is adandoned?
2015-12-06T00:04:16Z jimston: abandoned
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2015-12-06T00:11:08Z LiamH: jimston: essentially yes
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2015-12-06T00:37:32Z nyef: jimston: As an SBCL maintainer, I'd like to know what sense of "stable" you're looking for, and specific cases of SBCL being less "stable" than CCL.
2015-12-06T00:38:36Z jimston: nyef: the number of "FIXME" in the source code
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2015-12-06T00:39:01Z nyef: That's... not really something I'd consider an indication of stability, but okay.
2015-12-06T00:40:14Z jimston: nyef: also, FFI in CCL are seems to be more stable (according to the docs)
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2015-12-06T00:40:23Z nyef: I was afraid you were talking about something like "crashes more often".
2015-12-06T00:40:55Z nyef: ... Documentation? Where in which documentation?
2015-12-06T00:42:02Z jimston: nyef: e.g., see SBCL doc - http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Calling-Lisp-From-C note "extremely hackish". CCL doc does not have such words :)
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2015-12-06T00:42:57Z nyef: Ahh... The callback mechanism.
2015-12-06T00:43:23Z nyef: ... That's not even the callback mechanism.
2015-12-06T00:43:27Z nyef: Wow, that needs to be updated.
2015-12-06T00:43:38Z nyef: 0.7.5 is... not recent.
2015-12-06T00:44:04Z nyef: On the other hand, the callback mechanism isn't unversally available, either.
2015-12-06T00:44:07Z jimston: nyef: so, the overall impression that SBCL in only for TRUE and mature Lisp hackers :)
2015-12-06T00:44:33Z jimston: nyef: while CCL is more clean and stable for regular users :)
2015-12-06T00:44:44Z jimston: nyef: I have such feelings
2015-12-06T00:45:30Z nyef: Okay, documentation update required. So noted, and thank you. (-:
2015-12-06T00:45:39Z jimston: :)
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2015-12-06T02:05:55Z n_blownapart: hi do lisp interpreters integrate with light table?
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2015-12-06T04:35:36Z drmeister: n_blownapart: i haven't heard anyone integrate CL with light table. We
2015-12-06T04:35:46Z drmeister: Have slime in emacs
2015-12-06T04:37:24Z drmeister: I need to write a #x7f and #x01 into a text file. I'm generating an emacs etags file. Can I do this with a regular text file in CL?
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2015-12-06T04:48:00Z nyef: Possibly unportably.
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2015-12-06T04:49:04Z nyef: Try the obvious thing, (with-open-file (foo "test.txt" :direction :output) (format foo "~A~A" (code-char #x7f) (code-char #x01))) ?
2015-12-06T04:49:23Z nyef: Or some more-obvious test that currently escapes me, even.
2015-12-06T04:52:19Z drmeister: What about newlines in binary files?
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2015-12-06T04:53:59Z nyef: If you're working in a binary file, rather than a text format, surely you have full control over the encoding?
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2015-12-06T04:56:37Z drmeister: The etags tags format doesn't mention the end of line code.
2015-12-06T04:57:46Z drmeister: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctags
2015-12-06T05:00:27Z nyef: Presume that it's the standard unix format, a linefeed character.
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2015-12-06T05:01:37Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-12-06T05:01:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-06T05:02:13Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-12-06T05:04:00Z drmeister: I have to generate an etags file to expose c++ functions to allow slime to access them with M-.
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2015-12-06T06:23:57Z drmeister: If I create:   (make-string-output-stream :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))
2015-12-06T06:24:04Z drmeister: How do I get the output string?
2015-12-06T06:25:09Z drmeister: (get-output-stream-string stream) complains...
2015-12-06T06:25:11Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/SttuPhkR/
2015-12-06T06:25:26Z Bike: cos it ain't a string. you need a decoding layer.
2015-12-06T06:25:49Z Bike: you can use... i think babel?
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2015-12-06T07:53:07Z drmeister: Bike: Thanks.  A regular text file seems to work fine.
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2015-12-06T08:12:47Z kami` is now known as kami
2015-12-06T08:12:52Z kami: Good morning
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2015-12-06T08:18:43Z Jonsky: good morning to you too kami
2015-12-06T08:19:31Z Jonsky: Your name is "God" in Japanese hahaha
2015-12-06T08:19:44Z Shinmera: Among other things.
2015-12-06T08:20:21Z Jonsky: hair
2015-12-06T08:20:23Z Jonsky: paper
2015-12-06T08:22:19Z Jonsky: so how are you guys and ladies?
2015-12-06T08:22:29Z Jonsky: (I don't want to sound sexist.)
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2015-12-06T08:25:08Z darrin: (defun hello ()
2015-12-06T08:25:24Z darrin: "Hello from Idaho, USA!"
2015-12-06T08:25:25Z darrin: )
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2015-12-06T08:25:52Z Jonsky: ((lambda greet () "Hello ya'll!!") (get-everyone))
2015-12-06T08:26:10Z Jonsky: ooops
2015-12-06T08:26:20Z Jonsky: ((lambda () "Hello ya'll!!") (get-everyone))
2015-12-06T08:26:25Z Jonsky: much better now
2015-12-06T08:26:46Z kami: Jonsky: thanks for the hint. Yes, I was surprised to hear that when I was in Japan for the first time.
2015-12-06T08:27:11Z Jonsky: I used to say the same to an Italian girl named Camilla
2015-12-06T08:27:19Z Jonsky: Her friends called her Cami
2015-12-06T08:29:56Z heddwch: darrin: You're from Idaho? I'm sorry.
2015-12-06T08:30:41Z Jonsky: darrin: hello there
2015-12-06T08:30:41Z darrin: Hey now, I like it here. My backyard is a woodland with a river flowing through it, a lovely place to be.
2015-12-06T08:30:49Z Jonsky: WOW
2015-12-06T08:31:16Z heddwch: darrin: Oh, one of those that don't even realize it's that bad D:
2015-12-06T08:31:20Z heddwch is also from Idaho
2015-12-06T08:32:01Z darrin: It's a lovely place to sit and stare when I can't wrap my mind around that last paragraph while learning common lisp.
2015-12-06T08:32:45Z Jonsky: Is there only one Idaho?
2015-12-06T08:33:09Z darrin: Yep. The word doesn't mean anything, it's completely made up.
2015-12-06T08:33:16Z Jonsky: You know, there are some cities with the same name in US.
2015-12-06T08:33:25Z darrin: They just used it to name the territory, and then the state.
2015-12-06T08:33:30Z heddwch: Plenty of them, really.
2015-12-06T08:34:06Z darrin: Oh, yeah, Idaho is a state, though there is a place in Colorado (state) called Idaho Springs.
2015-12-06T08:35:41Z heddwch: s/state/&\/gestapo\/coven/
2015-12-06T08:36:05Z heddwch: Er, meant Idaho, not Colorado
2015-12-06T08:36:18Z darrin: City names in the US can be strange. I have a friend from Finland who once asked me "Is there really a town called 'Body of Christ'?"
2015-12-06T08:36:19Z Jonsky: hahahaa
2015-12-06T08:36:28Z Jonsky: REALLY?????
2015-12-06T08:36:38Z darrin: It took me a minute to realize he meant Corpus Christi, Texas.
2015-12-06T08:36:40Z Shinmera: Can you guys move this chatter to #lispcafe? Thanks.
2015-12-06T08:36:49Z darrin: sorry.
2015-12-06T08:36:53Z Jonsky: Sorry
2015-12-06T08:37:20Z heddwch: Not sorry, was waiting for one of the regulars to discourage people from existing :) See #lisp a few months later
2015-12-06T08:37:57Z Shinmera sighs
2015-12-06T08:38:06Z pjb: In the meantime, there are people in #lispcafe waiting for your non-lisp discussions…
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2015-12-06T08:43:22Z Shinmera: It is very well possible to join multiple channels at the same time.
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2015-12-06T08:48:24Z heddwch: shikhin: What are you doing, you know talking's not allowed here.
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2015-12-06T08:52:51Z shikhin: heddwch: What're you saying? I've heard it's great for chatter.
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2015-12-06T08:53:27Z heddwch: :p
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2015-12-06T15:52:19Z axion: is there anything like alexandria:alist-plist that will make it into a keyword symbol plist?
2015-12-06T15:53:17Z phoe_krk: axion: what are the cars of your alist right now? symbols?
2015-12-06T15:53:23Z axion: yes
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2015-12-06T15:54:10Z phoe_krk: (alexandria:alist-plist '((:asdf . 4) (:qwer . 3) (:zxcv . 2))) ;; => (:ASDF 4 :QWER 3 :ZXCV 2)
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2015-12-06T15:54:15Z phoe_krk: I don't see any issue here
2015-12-06T15:54:44Z axion: i would list to do '((a . 1) (b . 2)) => '(:a 1 :b 2)
2015-12-06T15:54:44Z phoe_krk: keywords in, keywords out
2015-12-06T15:54:47Z axion: like*
2015-12-06T15:54:58Z phoe_krk: hm, so symbols into keywords.
2015-12-06T15:55:02Z axion: yes
2015-12-06T15:55:26Z phoe_krk: I think you'd need to use an additional function that returns the same list with the symbol interned into the KEYWORDS package.
2015-12-06T15:57:40Z Shinmera: (loop for (key . val) in alist collect (intern (string key) :keyword) collect val)
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2015-12-06T16:05:56Z DeadTrickster: anyone is also getting roswell errors on travis-ci?
2015-12-06T16:06:20Z DeadTrickster: end of file on #<SYNONYM-STREAM :SYMBOL SB-SYS:*STDIN* {1000197593}>
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2015-12-06T16:19:02Z sjl: Is there something like COUNT for multi-dimensional arrays?
2015-12-06T16:19:30Z sjl: e.g. (count 1 #*001100) works fine, but (count 1 (make-array '(10 10) :element-type bit)) breaks
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2015-12-06T16:23:29Z Shinmera: (loop for i below (array-total-size array) count (eql 1 (row-major-aref array i)))
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2015-12-06T16:24:42Z h0wl3vvd: in lisp GC can be disabled and memory can be allocated fully manually ? is that option exist here ?
2015-12-06T16:25:00Z sjl: ah so just manually looping across the thing by hand
2015-12-06T16:25:03Z Shinmera: Depends on your implementation.
2015-12-06T16:25:15Z justinabrahms: Hey lispers. I'm unclear why this raises an error on common lisp. When evalling the form (min (remove 1 (list 1 1 2 3)))  The error is: "The value (2 3) is not of type REAL." What gives?
2015-12-06T16:25:33Z Shinmera: sjl: Multi dimensional arrays are not sequences, so there's no fancy functions to run across them.
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2015-12-06T16:25:41Z justinabrahms: The reading I've done suggests I might not have a "properly formed list" but the docs for remove says it returns the same type that goes in.
2015-12-06T16:26:13Z Shinmera: justinabrahms: MIN does not take a list as argument.
2015-12-06T16:26:29Z justinabrahms: Ahh. How do I handle spreads then?
2015-12-06T16:26:34Z ggole: You probably want (apply #'min (remove ...))
2015-12-06T16:26:36Z Shinmera: You can use APPLY or REDUCE
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2015-12-06T16:26:40Z ggole: Or rather, reduce
2015-12-06T16:26:45Z justinabrahms: Thanks. :)
2015-12-06T16:27:15Z Shinmera: APPLY has the downside that up to a given size of elements it's implementation dependant whether it will work due to the argument count limit.
2015-12-06T16:27:18Z ggole: You may wish to check whether the sequence is empty though
2015-12-06T16:27:29Z ggole: Since min will error given 0 arguments
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2015-12-06T16:28:21Z justinabrahms: Thanks. This is just for a toy thing (I'm trying to do adventofcode.com in CL just to do it)
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2015-12-06T16:48:49Z ukari: hola, is it ok to use `(lambda (arg) ) in a macro?
2015-12-06T16:49:53Z ukari: the compiler waring me undefind variable ARG
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2015-12-06T16:51:20Z Shinmera: Add a (declare (ignore arg)) in the body.
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2015-12-06T17:19:39Z ukari: http://paste.lisp.org/+3jzg
2015-12-06T17:20:08Z pjb: sjl: you can use count (and any other sequence function) on multidimensional arrays, thru a displaced 1D array: (count 1 (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.array:displaced-vector (make-array '(10 10) :initial-element 1))) #| --> 100 |#
2015-12-06T17:20:14Z ukari: i feel confused about this, just the first one works well
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2015-12-06T17:20:59Z pjb: ukari: 1- you didn't write down the specification of each function in their docstrings. 2- you didn't paste any test case.
2015-12-06T17:22:59Z Bike: ukari: the second one returns a lambda that returns a form. ` doesn't evaluate anything, it just builds a form to be executed.
2015-12-06T17:23:02Z pjb: AFAICS, partial1 and partial2 work perfectly well, doing exactly what they do.  There is an error in the macro partial3.
2015-12-06T17:23:54Z pjb: Bike: this is obvious. partial2 can be quite useful to perform symbolic computing: (funcall (partial2 '+ 'x 'y)) --> (+ x y)
2015-12-06T17:24:17Z Bike: ukari: in the macro, you're trying to insert "rest" into a form at compile time, but "rest" doesn't exist until the lambda is called.
2015-12-06T17:24:19Z pjb: (funcall (partial2 '+ 'x 'y) 'z) --> (+ x y z)
2015-12-06T17:24:53Z Bike: ukari: you could have `(apply #',fn ,@bind rest)
2015-12-06T17:25:12Z Bike: though that also includes a gensym problem
2015-12-06T17:26:19Z pjb: h0wl3vvd: some implementations don't even have a garbage collector. For example, Movitz.
2015-12-06T17:27:27Z pjb: sjl: arrays are arrays and can be displaced over to any other array, so you can use all the fancy sequence functions on arrays as I demonstrated above.
2015-12-06T17:30:29Z pjb: justinabrahms: (alexandria:extremum '(1 1 2 3) (function <)) #| --> 1 |#
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2015-12-06T17:31:41Z pjb: ukari: you might prefer to use the (declare (ignorable arg)) declaration, since it works whether arg is used or not in the potentially unknown body.
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2015-12-06T17:35:05Z ukari: pjb, what about using (declare (ignore arg))
2015-12-06T17:35:50Z Bike: ignore doesn't have anything to do with the problems you pasted
2015-12-06T17:37:32Z Bike: what they do is, with no declare, if you don't use a variable where it's in scope, you might get a warning about that. with the declare ignore, if you DO use it, you'll get a warning, but no warning if you don't use it. with ignorable, you don't get a warning either way.
2015-12-06T17:38:38Z pjb: ukari: (let ((body 'arg)) (compile nil `(lambda (arg) (declare (ignore arg)) ,@body))) #| ERROR: The value arg is not of the expected type list. |#
2015-12-06T17:39:00Z pjb: ukari: sorry, I mean: (let ((body '(arg))) (compile nil `(lambda (arg) (declare (ignore arg)) ,@body)))
2015-12-06T17:39:14Z pjb: this will give a warning: ;Compiler warnings : ;   In an anonymous lambda form: Variable arg not ignored.
2015-12-06T17:39:14Z pjb:  
2015-12-06T17:40:01Z pjb: Therefore with declare ignore, you cannot win: (let ((body (if (zerop (random 2)) '(arg) '()))) (compile nil `(lambda (arg) (declare (ignore arg)) ,@body))) will warn 1/2.
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2015-12-06T18:27:56Z francogrex: in the R language there is a concept naming and retrieving lists and sublists as such subhs$subh_total$page (page is a sub of subh_total which is a member of subhs). Does anyone know if there is a package providing some similar approach here?
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2015-12-06T18:29:26Z phoe_krk: francogrex: you mean, you have a list and you want a sublist of it, correct?
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2015-12-06T18:29:56Z francogrex: yes well that's putting it very lightly
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2015-12-06T18:31:05Z phoe_krk: (subseq '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) 3 7) ;; => (3 4 5 6)
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2015-12-06T18:32:16Z phoe_krk: SUBSEQ gives you a subsequence, as shown above. From the mentionworthy things, the first place is 0, not 1 - as shown above - and the "end" is the first place that's not included - like 7 isn't, as shown above as well.
2015-12-06T18:32:31Z francogrex: phoe_krk: yes but that's not what I am looking for
2015-12-06T18:32:53Z phoe_krk: you want to be able to name a sublist and later retrieve it?
2015-12-06T18:33:05Z francogrex: yes that
2015-12-06T18:33:06Z pjb: francogrex: you don't really need a package for that, since that's what you get with any closure.
2015-12-06T18:33:56Z pjb: francogrex: of course, there are a few macros wrapping some "standardized" closures, such as &/deref.
2015-12-06T18:35:00Z francogrex: for example (get :subhs :subh_total :total) ...
2015-12-06T18:35:16Z phoe_krk: francogrex: I say, define a global variable called *my-sublists* or something. assign a hashmap to it. then, write a function that stores argument pairs of format: name (list begin end) and puts them in that hashmap.
2015-12-06T18:35:16Z phoe_krk: then, write another function that you feed the name argument. it searches the hashmap by the name, gets the list, begin and end arguments and performs (subseq list begin end) - giving you what you need.
2015-12-06T18:35:24Z francogrex: ok
2015-12-06T18:35:52Z francogrex: I was thinking of hashes, but pjb mentioned closures
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2015-12-06T18:36:01Z phoe_krk: simply create your own hashmap or plist or alist, whatever you're more comfortable with, that you're able to search - feed it name, get the list, the beginning and the end. then you're able to use subseq.
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2015-12-06T18:38:37Z pjb: (defun make-sublist (list start end) (lambda (m &optional index (new-value nil new-value-p)) (ecase m (get (subseq list start end)) (ref (assert (<= 0 index (- end start 1))) (elt list (+ start index))) (set (assert (<= 0 index (- end start 1)))  (assert new-value-p) (setf (elt list (+ start index)) new-value)))))
2015-12-06T18:39:48Z pjb: (let ((sl (make-sublist (list 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) 3 6))) (values (funcall sl 'get) (funcall sl 'set 2 0) (funcall sl 'get))) #| --> (4 5 6) ; 0 ; (4 5 0) |#
2015-12-06T18:41:12Z phoe_krk: or that! which isn't all that different from my proposed solution.
2015-12-06T18:41:42Z francogrex: ok thanks that's the idea roughly
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2015-12-06T18:48:09Z francogrex: quite nice actually :)
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2015-12-06T19:27:03Z axion: well, i just finished a library for generating game maps for roguelike games
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2015-12-06T19:41:50Z Quadrescence: i think im going to livestream a little bit
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2015-12-06T19:59:21Z Quadrescence: im gonna start here in a min http://www.twitch.tv/dingdongpringle
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2015-12-06T20:12:10Z Xach: Quadrescence: cool
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2015-12-06T20:16:31Z DeadTrickster: dingdongpringle playing Programming
2015-12-06T20:16:35Z DeadTrickster: how nice
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2015-12-06T20:16:38Z epl692: question: I want to write a function/macro that will write a macro that will create a list structure. What's a good place to start. I'm looking to do something like (mkList id name phone) and having it result in a (defun (id name phone) (list :id id :name name :phone phone)), preferably with use of &rest. Ideas?
2015-12-06T20:16:50Z DeadTrickster: nope let see advert first
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2015-12-06T20:19:22Z axion: when does november QL get released?
2015-12-06T20:19:41Z Shinmera: It's been skipped.
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2015-12-06T20:26:11Z epl692: I guess, my main question. Should this be a function or a macro? Don't quite have the experiance to know yet.
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2015-12-06T20:39:45Z Xach: argh. git tarballs aren't working properly for me.
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2015-12-06T20:40:13Z Xach: epl692: defstruct will do something like that for you
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2015-12-06T20:55:54Z DeadTrickster: Xach, hey, December QL is already out?
2015-12-06T20:56:04Z Xach: DeadTrickster: no.
2015-12-06T20:57:42Z epl692: Xach: defstruct runs, but I don't quite understand what this does, but it seems like the correct direction.
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2015-12-06T20:59:04Z DeadTrickster: Xach, cool very tasty stuff just merged into cl+ssl. hope it will be included in the next QL release
2015-12-06T20:59:51Z DeadTrickster: Xach, also could you please restore read-csv from here: https://github.com/deadtrickster/read-csv
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2015-12-06T21:01:09Z Xach: DeadTrickster: can you please open a github issue so I don't forget?
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2015-12-06T21:04:02Z phoe_krk: hey, I just realized that, in Lisp, I can go as functional as I want or need to
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2015-12-06T21:04:14Z phoe_krk: and wherever necessary, just go OO
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2015-12-06T21:13:55Z DeadTrickster: Xach, sure will do later today
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2015-12-06T21:16:10Z DeadTrickster: anyone is actualy using xcvb?
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2015-12-06T21:27:34Z Shinmera: It probably doesn't even work anymore.
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2015-12-06T23:06:50Z phoe_krk: Can I do labels inside with-slots?
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2015-12-06T23:08:11Z Bike: sure
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2015-12-06T23:08:34Z Bike: with-slots just expands to a symbol-macrolet, likely
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2015-12-06T23:26:39Z phoe_krk: Does iterate allow me to declare a local variable inside it that doesn't get changed, except when I explicitly setf it?
2015-12-06T23:26:53Z phoe_krk: Because (for x = 0) will set it to 0 on each iteration.
2015-12-06T23:27:19Z Bike: in loop it's "with". is there a "with" in iterate?
2015-12-06T23:27:49Z Bike: yeah, looks like there's a with and it should work.
2015-12-06T23:28:21Z phoe_krk: oh, yes. thanks.
2015-12-06T23:29:24Z phoe_krk: and suddenly my main doesn't look as scary as it did.
2015-12-06T23:29:41Z phoe_krk: I mean, it's still seven parens deep, but come on, nowhere as bad as it was.
2015-12-06T23:30:11Z blub: cg
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2015-12-06T23:41:26Z axion: how can i switch inferior-lisp implementations with slime or sly?
2015-12-06T23:41:48Z pjb: slime-cycle-connection but  is deprecated.
2015-12-06T23:42:08Z axion: in favor of something different?
2015-12-06T23:42:08Z Bike: slime-next-connection now, isn't it
2015-12-06T23:42:26Z pjb: Whouah!  How great an improvement!
2015-12-06T23:43:36Z DeadTrickster: lol
2015-12-06T23:44:18Z Xach_: axion: I use slime-selector c
2015-12-06T23:44:23Z axion: assuming i have 2 implementations defined in emacs config, how can i start the second one? next-connection is not going to work
2015-12-06T23:44:44Z Xach_: C-u M-x slime, but now I can't remember the right syntax from there, sorry :(
2015-12-06T23:44:53Z pjb: C-u M-x slime
2015-12-06T23:46:02Z axion: i must be doing something wrong, because that just starts another of the same implementation
2015-12-06T23:46:27Z pjb: There's also C-- M-x slime RET
2015-12-06T23:48:06Z axion: aha i'm using helm, which does not allow a prefix argument for M-x
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2015-12-06T23:53:33Z axion: great, it's M-x sly C-u RET
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2015-12-07T00:01:38Z vickk: is scheme easier to learn than common lisp?
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2015-12-07T00:04:33Z DeadTrickster: what is the preferred way to install CCL on ubuntu?
2015-12-07T00:04:45Z axion: they are very different. for me, i think Common Lisp is easier having more available to me.
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2015-12-07T00:06:55Z Xach_: DeadTrickster: svn checkout
2015-12-07T00:07:12Z DeadTrickster: ah
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2015-12-07T00:12:53Z vickk: axion: maybe common lisp is more practical (for some values of practical), but i found it to be very difficult to understand in depth. That's because the standard and most materials are too abstract; presumably because there are several different implementations. The hyperspec is also awful to read - all these hyperlinks are super annoying to me.
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2015-12-07T00:14:10Z axion: Ok
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2015-12-07T00:16:43Z Xach_: vickk: the hyperspec is not easily read start to finish, but it is a very excellent reference.
2015-12-07T00:17:00Z marusich: I'm having trouble understanding why this evaluates to #f (in Guile): (eq? '(a b c) (list 'a 'b 'c)). My REPL prints out identical results when I evaluate '(a b c) and (list 'a 'b 'c). In both cases, it prints: (a b c). I don't understand this behavior; what am I missing?
2015-12-07T00:17:32Z Xach_: marusich: this is not a good channel for guile or scheme questions. it is CL-only.
2015-12-07T00:17:43Z marusich: CL?
2015-12-07T00:17:47Z Xach_: common lisp.
2015-12-07T00:17:47Z axion: Common Lisp
2015-12-07T00:17:55Z marusich: I see. Does the same problem not occur for common lisp, then?
2015-12-07T00:18:05Z Xach_: marusich: common lisp does not have EQ?
2015-12-07T00:18:08Z axion: common lisp does not have such a function
2015-12-07T00:18:10Z marusich: Huh, I see.
2015-12-07T00:18:14Z marusich: I'll ask in guile, then. Thanks
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2015-12-07T00:18:44Z Xach_: there are similar problems, but it's hard to say if they are applicable. i don't know much about scheme (and if i did, i wouldn't discuss it here)
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2015-12-07T00:19:46Z marusich: I think I have my own answer. eq? behaves differently than I expected; I wanted equal?
2015-12-07T00:20:00Z marusich: (equal? '(a b c) (list 'a 'b 'c)) evalutes to #t
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2015-12-07T00:22:42Z blub: eq tests object identity
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2015-12-07T00:23:57Z DeadTrickster: I remember when I tried to implement CL on .net I read CLHS for year or two on almost daily basis
2015-12-07T00:24:05Z DeadTrickster: only to discover something new on the next day
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2015-12-07T00:25:51Z DeadTrickster: what I love the most is X3J13 notes and issues
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2015-12-07T00:27:53Z blub: benefits: avoids cost of non-adoption
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2015-12-07T00:34:08Z phoe_krk: Why would I get "Access denied" (error code 5) when trying to read from a socket stream?
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2015-12-07T00:51:18Z phoe_krk: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 9900(tid 31725568): Heap exhausted, game over.
2015-12-07T00:51:20Z phoe_krk: whoops.
2015-12-07T00:51:32Z phoe_krk: something went terribly, terribly wrong I think.
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2015-12-07T00:53:03Z Bike: well, that just means you consed too much stuff
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2015-12-07T01:00:28Z pjb: phoe_krk: those are obviously, low level errors.  Probably some kind of POSIX errno code. Read the manual and the headers of your POSIX platform.
2015-12-07T01:00:43Z phoe_krk: pjb: I found out, trying to read from a closed stream.
2015-12-07T01:00:50Z pjb: phoe_krk: (I mean the access denied error code 5).
2015-12-07T01:01:08Z phoe_krk: about the heap exhausted thing - no idea, I just did something wrong and buggy.
2015-12-07T01:01:09Z pjb: phoe_krk: I don't care the exact error. I care you know where to look for the next one.
2015-12-07T01:01:23Z phoe_krk: I think I know where to look for the next one.
2015-12-07T01:01:28Z pjb: Good.
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2015-12-07T01:20:34Z namespace: How do you create an input stream that takes its data from that written to an output stream from another part of the program?
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2015-12-07T01:21:51Z pjb: using   com.informatimago.clext.pipe:make-pipe
2015-12-07T01:21:55Z pjb: (AGPL3)
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2015-12-07T01:22:56Z pjb: namespace: or you cal use (let ((data (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (some-part))))   (with-input-from-string (*standard-input* data) (other-part)))
2015-12-07T01:23:02Z pjb: if you can buffer all the data.
2015-12-07T01:24:26Z namespace: But how would I connect STDOUT to STDIN?
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2015-12-07T01:27:04Z pjb: There is no standard way to deal with those POSIX specific notions. But you may find your implementation has some function such as make-stream-from-file-descriptor or something.
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2015-12-07T01:28:05Z vydd: hello! any recommendations for a caching library? I probably need LRU, but having more algorithms to choose from would be great.
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2015-12-07T01:30:54Z pjb: vydd: Why, com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.cache of course. (AGPL3).
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2015-12-07T01:32:51Z vydd: pjb: great!
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2015-12-07T01:45:04Z vydd: pjb: I'm going to use caching for a custom memoization mechanism. Your docs say it's disk based, so I'm wondering how flexible the code would be if I wanted to modify it for that purpose? Just skimming through code makes me think it might not be well suited for this.
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2015-12-07T01:45:55Z pjb: vydd: there are memoizing libraries.
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2015-12-07T01:50:40Z vydd: pjb: Right, but none of the memoizing libraries I found (looked at libraries returned by (ql:system-apropos "memo")) was big on finite caches; and one other piece of code I found explicitly said it was "grossly suboptimal".
2015-12-07T01:52:00Z vydd: pjb: So I figured it might be easier to look for a generalized caching library with good implementations of caching algorithms, and then just write a tiny memo wrapper around that.
2015-12-07T01:55:39Z vydd: pjb: It's for https://github.com/vydd/sketch; I'd like to experiment with caching/memoizing drawing instructions, but can't use standard defmemo implementations, because having a user draw a thousand random points 60 frames per second would get ugly very quickly.
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2015-12-07T02:03:30Z pjb: vydd: then it's more a buffer than a cache or memoization that you want, it seems.
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2015-12-07T02:39:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-07T02:40:04Z blub: hi beach
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2015-12-07T02:44:24Z vydd: hi!
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2015-12-07T02:50:11Z beach: blub: Are you working on any Common Lisp project?
2015-12-07T02:51:01Z jsgrant: Anybody poke around with Mezzano yet? I plan on setting up a dev-env for it by the end of the year.
2015-12-07T02:52:14Z vydd: pjb: I need a policy for removing the data. For example, each frame has a background scenery and a few characters. I always draw the background, and LFU, for example, keeps the background drawing commands (their results) in memory. Characters keep changing (I could be displacing their skeletons to represent motion), and it's probably ok not to have them in cache. Also, they're small in number, so it's not as expensive to recalculate
2015-12-07T02:52:14Z vydd: their vertices. That's why I think it's caching and standard caching algorhitms that I need. Hm. https://github.com/AccelerationNet/function-cache looks promising.
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2015-12-07T02:53:40Z pjb: vydd: then it's more a buffer than a cache or memoization that you want, it seems. Perhaps there are solutions using opengl too?
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2015-12-07T02:54:28Z pjb: vydd: sounds more like a drawing problem. perhaps you should ask on #lispgames. Perhaps there are solutions using opengl too?
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2015-12-07T02:55:48Z blub: beach: nothing very interesting, ive been poking together an implementation of format on the side for fun but thats all..
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2015-12-07T02:56:12Z beach: blub: OK.
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2015-12-07T03:00:42Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-12-07T03:01:49Z vydd: pjb: I have chatted about it there already. Having caching/buffering/memoization here is just an idea I'd like to explore, and the opinion there was that it might work. There are of course opengl techniques for optimizing streamed drawing, and I'm using/going to use those.
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2015-12-07T03:20:40Z drmeister: Hey everyone.
2015-12-07T03:22:11Z blub: hi drmeister
2015-12-07T03:22:15Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-12-07T03:23:03Z phf: vydd: i am curious, if you have a stream of commands draw sprites, how do you figure out the boundaries? like say you call a bunch of draw square functions with fixed params, that's your background, and then a bunch of draw square functions and that's your sprite
2015-12-07T03:24:25Z drmeister: Hey blub, beach
2015-12-07T03:25:20Z drmeister: I've been doing more cleanup today.  stassats says he got M-. and M-, working in Slime for clasp - now I just need source locations.
2015-12-07T03:26:35Z beach: I can take a hint.
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2015-12-07T03:27:56Z drmeister: beach: Was that meant for me?
2015-12-07T03:28:01Z drmeister: :-)
2015-12-07T03:28:02Z beach: Yes.
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2015-12-07T03:28:31Z drmeister: I'm not as good at taking hints.   :-) I'm not sure what you mean.
2015-12-07T03:28:43Z beach: Yeah, right.
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2015-12-07T03:29:16Z drmeister: Do you mean because you were encouraging me to do the cleanup?   You were/are right - it's necessary.
2015-12-07T03:30:03Z beach: Nah, I wasn't thinking of anything in particular.
2015-12-07T03:30:07Z drmeister: I'm using a pragmatic combination of  find/grep/Common Lisp/sed/emacs.
2015-12-07T03:30:18Z drmeister: Oh.  Ok.  No problem here.
2015-12-07T03:30:35Z vydd: phf: I'm not sure what you mean. If you are referring to my example, I wanted to present a case where Least Frequently Used cache algorithm would do well. The library doesn't know what the user is drawing, but the fact that some of the meshes are more frequently drawn is observable. I still don't know if this would work that well in practice.
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2015-12-07T03:35:45Z vydd: phf: So, there's no notion of background and foreground, just less and more frequent, less and more recent, etc. - but I hope that's enough to help in ~many~ cases.
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2015-12-07T03:39:32Z phf: vydd: ah, i see. i was curious about how granular is the information that backend ultimately sees. if all you had were like squares and circles then caching overhead would outweigh the benefits, but it looks like you have some (with-foo (draw-bar) (draw-baz)) kind of operations, that can be grouped and cached together?
2015-12-07T03:42:39Z vydd: phf: That's one thing, but I think caching could work on even lower level, because each shape has its fill color and stroke color (also, stroke weight). Because I want to have custom line joins and caps in future, and also don't like that maximum line width (stroke weight) depends on the implementation, I'm implementing strokes as triangle strips. (That's pretty common for tools that can do nice vector graphics and use gl).
2015-12-07T03:45:20Z vydd: phf: To get those triangle strips, I have to do some potentially computationally non trivial math, and actually drawing a large enough regular hexagonal grid using fill and stroke colors becomes a nightmare.
2015-12-07T03:46:57Z vydd: phf: Very easy to solve when you know it's all same stuff repeated, but when the users just gets there via exploratory programming, mixing that code with all kinds of regular lisp logic...it's a whole different problem.
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2015-12-07T03:49:41Z phf: right so your user level primitive shapes are not just a trivial rasterization problem, so caching that stuff makes sense
2015-12-07T03:51:13Z vydd: that's what I'm hoping for
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2015-12-07T07:50:03Z dreamaddict: are there any good ways to play directly with the pointers in a list?
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2015-12-07T07:50:55Z dreamaddict: say…for example, I was making an anagram solver, and instead of making new lists out of one big fat wordlist, I wanted to make a list of references to the main wordlist, and change up the cdr’s so that the list of references only pointed to a subset of the words
2015-12-07T07:51:33Z jackdaniel: you may replce car and cdr of the list with rplaca and rplacd
2015-12-07T07:51:35Z dreamaddict: (I want to filter a dictionary for words that fit inside of “test phrase”…instead of copying by value each item from the dictionary, make a list of “pointers” that only point to the items that I want
2015-12-07T07:52:23Z jackdaniel: it's a crude way though
2015-12-07T07:52:38Z dreamaddict: I mean if this were C I could do a bunch of pointer fuckery
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2015-12-07T07:53:00Z jackdaniel: yes, but it's not C. Consider it a feature :)
2015-12-07T07:53:01Z dreamaddict: but then the rest of it would be no fun to write, which is why I wanted to try it in LISP
2015-12-07T07:53:08Z dreamaddict: oh it’s definitely a feature
2015-12-07T07:53:21Z dreamaddict: but then I’m like, the things I want to do to make it go faster start looking like C :P
2015-12-07T07:53:31Z jackdaniel: generally lisp doesn't give your construct to do pointer arithmetic at all
2015-12-07T07:54:03Z jackdaniel: s/your/you/
2015-12-07T07:54:12Z jackdaniel: s/construct/constructs/
2015-12-07T07:54:26Z dreamaddict: that seems to be the case
2015-12-07T07:55:26Z dreamaddict: all I want essentially is to have one list, ‘(1 2 3 4 5), and make a new list from it, ‘(1 5) that is references and not actually a 1 and a 5
2015-12-07T07:56:09Z jackdaniel: the quote you write here isn't a lisp QUOTE operator ;)
2015-12-07T07:56:10Z dreamaddict: because in my actual program, the numbers are instead kind of unwieldy database record type things that are a bitch to copy and relist…which is kind of the meat of the work that the program does
2015-12-07T07:56:18Z dreamaddict: the ‘
2015-12-07T07:56:26Z dreamaddict: is when I type in the REPL :P
2015-12-07T07:56:40Z dreamaddict: on my computer at least…
2015-12-07T07:56:47Z jackdaniel: dreamaddict: if you have list (list object1 object2 object3) and you name it *x*
2015-12-07T07:57:01Z jackdaniel: and do (list (first *x*) (last *x*))
2015-12-07T07:57:12Z jackdaniel: then the objects referenced by a new list reference to the same objects
2015-12-07T07:57:20Z dreamaddict: ah
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2015-12-07T07:57:33Z dreamaddict: the list operator makes references...?
2015-12-07T07:57:39Z dreamaddict: function
2015-12-07T07:57:47Z dreamaddict: the list function makes references
2015-12-07T07:57:57Z jackdaniel: if that's what you ask – you have it by design. No, list is just a structure where you put objects
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2015-12-07T07:58:11Z jackdaniel: when you say (first *x*), then you put there object which is a first element of *x*
2015-12-07T07:58:14Z jackdaniel: that's all
2015-12-07T07:58:54Z dreamaddict: and…what about if I use remove?  that returns a…value copy?
2015-12-07T07:59:00Z jackdaniel: hrm, how to say that… Everything in lisp is basically a pointer (unless it isn't ;-), it's just that you can't do pointer arithmetics
2015-12-07T07:59:19Z dreamaddict: ok that’s mostly what I figured
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2015-12-07T07:59:32Z jackdaniel: when you use function remove, you create a new list without this element
2015-12-07T07:59:37Z dreamaddict: I just need to know when it is making lists by reference and when it is copying values
2015-12-07T07:59:43Z jackdaniel: if you use nremove, then you modify the original list, but objects are intact
2015-12-07T08:00:14Z jackdaniel: it never copies the values (unless some object is an immediate type, but it's mainly about numbers, characters and such)
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2015-12-07T08:00:45Z dreamaddict: ok, so the results from non-destructive manipulations like remove and whatnot always return (in C terms) references
2015-12-07T08:01:13Z jackdaniel: in C terms there are pointers only :P but yeah, conceptually you're right
2015-12-07T08:01:29Z dreamaddict: ok that is good to know
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2015-12-07T08:02:12Z dreamaddict: and then also what I would wonder is…in my anagram solver, I have an entry that is a list of cons cells (character . value) for each distinct letter in the word
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2015-12-07T08:02:50Z dreamaddict: like “waffles” (#/w . 1) (#\f . 2) etc.  I didn’t type the symbols in properly whatever…it’s a list of those cons cells
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2015-12-07T08:03:17Z dreamaddict: seemed convenient for keeping track of letter counts in each word…but now I wonder, if I should change that to a 26 byte array of letter counts instead…if that would be faster to work with
2015-12-07T08:03:27Z dreamaddict: some guy on stackoverflow said working with a lot of cons cells is slooowww
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2015-12-07T08:03:44Z Quadrescence: cons cells aren't slow
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2015-12-07T08:03:56Z Quadrescence: replacing fast data structures with inappropriate cons-cell-based ones is slow
2015-12-07T08:04:16Z Quadrescence: e.g., using lists for repeated random access instead of vectors
2015-12-07T08:04:20Z dreamaddict: I…would have no idea what is inappropriate in this case, I’m very new with LISP
2015-12-07T08:04:39Z dreamaddict: probably a vector is a better idea
2015-12-07T08:04:43Z jackdaniel: dreamaddict: we are talking about the Common Lisp, which is somewhat related to LISP, but totally different
2015-12-07T08:04:45Z Quadrescence: that is more a question of computer science and less of lisp
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2015-12-07T08:05:18Z pjb: dreamaddict: you can use & and deref in lisp just like in C.
2015-12-07T08:05:21Z dreamaddict: well I guess…?  more like, I don’t know enough about how LISP implements these things to know what is the faster option
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2015-12-07T08:05:36Z pjb: dreamaddict: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp
2015-12-07T08:05:53Z jackdaniel: please, don't confuse him further pjb…
2015-12-07T08:05:58Z jackdaniel: either way I've got to go
2015-12-07T08:06:01Z jackdaniel: have a nice day all
2015-12-07T08:06:02Z Quadrescence: pjb, sometimes i wonder if you ever think pedagogically ;)
2015-12-07T08:06:20Z pjb: In this case, no. I definitely wanted to confuse more.
2015-12-07T08:06:54Z pjb: If the guys can't realize that we don't play with pointers, but that lists are made of chains of conses and that we can manipulate those chains, it's hopeless.
2015-12-07T08:07:32Z dreamaddict: hey now
2015-12-07T08:07:39Z dreamaddict: that much I do get
2015-12-07T08:08:10Z dreamaddict: what I don’t get is, when is it copying the whole element and when is it copying a reference
2015-12-07T08:08:26Z dreamaddict: in this case the element is big so…I wanted to know
2015-12-07T08:08:31Z pjb: dreamaddict: Try this instead: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/l99/index.html  or read Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
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2015-12-07T08:08:48Z pjb: dreamaddict: lisp never copies.
2015-12-07T08:08:58Z dreamaddict: ok then
2015-12-07T08:08:59Z varjag: copying is explicit throughout common lisp
2015-12-07T08:09:08Z varjag: i.e. you have to do it yourself
2015-12-07T08:09:12Z dreamaddict: great, that is super informative!!!
2015-12-07T08:09:13Z pjb: dreamaddict: (well, CL implementations are allowed to copy numbers and characters, that's all; that's why (eq 42 24) can be false.
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2015-12-07T08:09:32Z pjb: (eq 42 42) I mean.
2015-12-07T08:09:41Z pjb: evel (let ((x 42)) (eq x x)) can be false.
2015-12-07T08:09:43Z pjb: even
2015-12-07T08:09:59Z dreamaddict: that is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for varjag!
2015-12-07T08:10:20Z varjag: thats' why god made =
2015-12-07T08:10:23Z Quadrescence: pjb, is (eq fixnum fixnum) for = fixnums necessarily true though?
2015-12-07T08:10:30Z Quadrescence: i dont remember
2015-12-07T08:10:35Z pjb: Quadrescence: not necessarily.
2015-12-07T08:11:05Z pjb: Quadrescence: even fixnums can be represented as Integer (in Java) or NSNumber (in Objective-C or swift).
2015-12-07T08:11:13Z jackdaniel: Quadrescence: eq guarantees the same address in the memory, while immediate type might be stored directly in a cons cell
2015-12-07T08:11:59Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, i know that, but im trying to tie in the fact that fixnums are intended to have efficient representation
2015-12-07T08:12:23Z Quadrescence: but i guess the additional constraint is that they must be (signed-byte 16), and java probably can't get away with that as immediate values or something
2015-12-07T08:12:25Z pjb: It's not even this.  What this part of CLHS says, is that you can get copies of the boxed objects (number or characters) made when passing the arguments. It's unrelated to slots.
2015-12-07T08:12:26Z prxq: pjb: (let ((x 42)) (eq x x)) can be false?
2015-12-07T08:12:29Z pjb: Yes.
2015-12-07T08:12:31Z pjb: clhs eq
2015-12-07T08:12:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm
2015-12-07T08:12:43Z pjb: Why do you think we keep repeating not to use EQ.
2015-12-07T08:12:56Z dreamaddict: ok I’ve got another great question
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2015-12-07T08:13:17Z dreamaddict: is there any LISP equivalent to the thing you can do in C where you can subtract ‘c’ from ‘e’ and get 2?
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2015-12-07T08:13:40Z pjb: (- (char-code #\e) (char-code #\c))
2015-12-07T08:13:48Z varjag: char-code
2015-12-07T08:13:48Z pjb: dreamaddict: but you may also obtain 22 or 84.
2015-12-07T08:14:13Z prxq: pjb: yeah, i see. It's pretty useless most of the time.
2015-12-07T08:14:22Z dreamaddict: ideally there would be something that could compile down to the ultra fast and simple thing that C does in that scenario
2015-12-07T08:14:27Z pjb: dreamaddict: if you want to get 2, then you would rather use (- (position #\e *alphabet*) (position #\c *alphabet*)).
2015-12-07T08:14:38Z pjb: prxq: in C too.
2015-12-07T08:15:03Z pjb: dreamaddict: check http://cliki.net/Performance
2015-12-07T08:15:29Z dreamaddict: heh I saw a code jam that was about translating text messages into old-school nine key sequences for texting
2015-12-07T08:15:47Z dreamaddict: and it used the trick of subtracting ‘a’ to get the place in an array
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2015-12-07T08:17:35Z pjb: dreamaddict: in all languages it's bad practice.
2015-12-07T08:17:38Z dreamaddict: eh as long as (position *char* *alphabet*) is fast enough that should be OK
2015-12-07T08:18:18Z pjb: dreamaddict: on the other hand, in CL, you could add a compilation-time check to ensure that it's safe to do so at run-time (with the big assumption that the encoding doesn't change between compilation time and run-time, of which there's no real guarantee).
2015-12-07T08:19:04Z dreamaddict: right, so what you are insinuating here is that I should use (position *char* *alphabet*)
2015-12-07T08:19:27Z pjb: C too has some nice verbiage in its standards.  You definitely will want to avoid any character that is not in the ASCII character set in C literal strings.
2015-12-07T08:19:39Z pjb: dreamaddict: yes.
2015-12-07T08:19:51Z pjb: Or use a library like iconv (in C) or babel in CL.
2015-12-07T08:20:00Z dreamaddict: of course…this code jam scenario the input was guaranteed in a certain range
2015-12-07T08:20:20Z dreamaddict: and I still like subtracting ‘0’ from a numeric character to get the literal value
2015-12-07T08:20:27Z dreamaddict: or whichever character that is
2015-12-07T08:20:35Z dreamaddict: but hey I can play in the rules here
2015-12-07T08:21:01Z pjb: In some character sets, 0=O and 1=I; good luck with your subtractings…
2015-12-07T08:21:20Z prxq: well, good luck if that's your character set.
2015-12-07T08:21:25Z prxq: you will need it :-)
2015-12-07T08:21:27Z pjb: yes.
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2015-12-07T08:22:04Z dreamaddict: what character sets would be doing that
2015-12-07T08:23:35Z pjb: (values (apply (function -) (coerce (string-to-octets "na" :encoding :ebcdic-us) 'list)) (apply (function -) (coerce (string-to-octets "na" :encoding :us-ascii) 'list))) #| --> 20 ; 13 |#
2015-12-07T08:29:22Z pjb: dreamaddict: check section 13.1.6 Ordering of Characters
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2015-12-07T08:33:16Z Bike: dreamaddict: for -'0' you can just use digit-char-p, which should be fast regardless of the character set
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2015-12-07T08:35:56Z dreamaddict: thank you very much
2015-12-07T08:36:49Z pjb: dreamaddict: notice that nothing prevents you, and often you would rather be well advised to, to use (unsigned-byte 8) instead of characters in your programs.
2015-12-07T08:37:15Z dreamaddict: the string is made of characters though
2015-12-07T08:37:26Z dreamaddict: it’s…easier…to use characters in this case?
2015-12-07T08:37:40Z pjb: dreamaddict:  a lot of protocols that look like being textual protocols are actually binary protocols, (and specify, eg. ASCII or UTF-8 encoding for the textual parts). Same thing with file formats.  Same thing with PROCESSINGS of a lot of POSIX files.
2015-12-07T08:37:51Z pjb: Don't use strings.
2015-12-07T08:37:58Z pjb: strings are vectors of characters.
2015-12-07T08:38:20Z pjb: instead uses vectors of octets (with (deftype octet () '(unsigned-byte 8))).
2015-12-07T08:38:46Z pjb: Using vectors of octets will let you read and write as fast as C, and will let you process the vectors as fast as C.
2015-12-07T08:39:07Z dreamaddict: ok well you’ve sold me there
2015-12-07T08:39:40Z pjb: Of course, you may want to have the convenience of writing "HELO" when you mean #(72 69 76 79).  For this you can easily write a reader macro.
2015-12-07T08:40:04Z pjb: See for example the package COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.ASCII.
2015-12-07T08:40:12Z dreamaddict: # is the designator for a vector I take it
2015-12-07T08:40:38Z dreamaddict: and in this case, a reader macro would probably be more efficient than working with characters
2015-12-07T08:40:46Z dreamaddict: (anagram solver)
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2015-12-07T08:41:14Z pjb: (ascii-format nil "HELO ~A~%" "example.com") --> #(72 69 76 79 32 101 120 97 109 112 108 101 46 99 111 109 13 10)
2015-12-07T08:41:45Z pjb: dreamaddict: nope, you're wrong. #\# is a dispatching reader macro character.
2015-12-07T08:42:00Z pjb: #\# #\( is the dispatching reader macro to read literal vectors.
2015-12-07T08:42:24Z dreamaddict: ok
2015-12-07T08:42:36Z pjb: Notice that ascii-format will produce the same bytes whatever the host character codes.
2015-12-07T08:42:44Z pjb: it produces ASCII bytes.
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2015-12-07T08:43:53Z dreamaddict: ok this I will have to look into
2015-12-07T08:44:02Z pjb: (bytes= (ascii-format nil "HELO") #(72 69 76 79)) #| --> t |#
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2015-12-07T08:44:57Z dreamaddict: because at some point I will want to solve an anagram in under 8 hours or whatever
2015-12-07T08:45:50Z pjb: etc, so you can easily read vectors of octets, and process them as easily as with strings, using bytes= instead of string=, and using the usual vectors, arrays and sequence CL functions that you would use with strings. Check the string chapter in clhs and you'll see that there are very few operators specific to strings.
2015-12-07T08:46:22Z pjb: (and most those that are there, are actually string designator operators, like (string= 'hello "HELLO") #| --> t |# )
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2015-12-07T09:09:52Z loke: I know pjb will hate me for this, but I'm generally making the assumption that CHAR-CODE returns Unicode code points. I simply don't support platforms where they don't.
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2015-12-07T09:16:56Z DeadTrickster: I wonder hows pjb has so much time to hang out here and always quickly respond to random things
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2015-12-07T09:20:19Z loke: DeadTrickster: Does he really? I think he does what the rest of us do; are active at random times.
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2015-12-07T09:20:50Z loke: For example, he didn't reply to my previous message. That suggests that he's not always constantly monitoring the IRC.
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2015-12-07T09:50:21Z loke: DeadTrickster: oh, I see you on #rabbitmq
2015-12-07T09:51:29Z namespace: Okay so I blew the call stack and am now staring at the debugger prompt.
2015-12-07T09:51:37Z namespace: Is there actually a way to fix this?
2015-12-07T09:51:51Z namespace would prefer not to restart the program, the computation was expensive
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2015-12-07T09:56:46Z flip214: namespace: perhaps you can restart an earlier stack frame, and cause it to *not* recurse any more?
2015-12-07T09:57:20Z namespace: So what like redefine the function to something non recursive and then rerun it?
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2015-12-07T10:03:10Z namespace: I'm thinking I could save-lisp-and-die and then rerun the image with a larger control stack.
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2015-12-07T10:10:43Z DeadTrickster: loke, yeah sadly that channel almost dead
2015-12-07T10:10:58Z loke: DeadTrickster: The mailing list/google group is much more active.
2015-12-07T10:11:18Z namespace just realized it's taking in a stream
2015-12-07T10:11:20Z namespace: Hm.
2015-12-07T10:12:01Z DeadTrickster: ah mailing lists... actually it's much simpler to just consult with rabbitmq source code than ask and wait
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2015-12-07T10:18:10Z namespace gives up on this for now
2015-12-07T10:18:14Z namespace: What's the best http client library?
2015-12-07T10:20:09Z DeadTrickster: for what?
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2015-12-07T10:22:27Z namespace: For common lisp? O_o I doubt it significantly varies based on field of endeavor.
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2015-12-07T10:26:46Z DeadTrickster: namespace, if you are plannign to talk to secure service non of them is right for you
2015-12-07T10:26:57Z DeadTrickster: are
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2015-12-07T10:27:49Z loke: DeadTrickster: What's wrong with Drakma?
2015-12-07T10:28:36Z namespace: DeadTrickster: Thankfully I'm not.
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2015-12-07T10:29:18Z DeadTrickster: loke, the way it handles ssl connections
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2015-12-07T10:30:19Z JuanDaugherty: likely a clification of curl
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2015-12-07T10:30:41Z JuanDaugherty: or direct binding of same
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2015-12-07T10:35:02Z DeadTrickster: namespace, then you have broad selection - maybe three libs drakma, drakma-async, dexador
2015-12-07T10:35:45Z loke: DeadTrickster: How do you mean?
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2015-12-07T10:39:46Z DeadTrickster: loke, partly because of cl+ssl defaults e.g. not chain validation by default
2015-12-07T10:40:09Z DeadTrickster: look at the recent cl+ssl commits, particularly mine :-)
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2015-12-07T10:41:26Z loke: DeadTrickster: Really? I did not know that,.
2015-12-07T10:41:29Z loke: Better for cl+ssl then
2015-12-07T10:41:37Z loke: cl+ssl is quite horrible anyway
2015-12-07T10:41:43Z DeadTrickster: sure it is
2015-12-07T10:42:09Z DeadTrickster: I think that is mainly because that infamous "don't write security yoiurself" motto
2015-12-07T10:42:26Z DeadTrickster: and no one cared indeed )
2015-12-07T10:42:33Z loke: Well, the idea behind cl+ssl isn't bad. Of course we should like to an existing TLS library.
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2015-12-07T10:42:55Z loke: The actual implementation of it is bad. For example, it does not expose any functions to do certificate maangement.
2015-12-07T10:43:07Z DeadTrickster: no worries it will be fixed
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2015-12-07T10:43:51Z loke: I needed to do manual certificate validation once, and I needed to call an ungodly number of internal functions in cl+ssl (as well as wrap some other OpenSSL function)
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2015-12-07T10:44:54Z DeadTrickster: well I'm now setting up tests
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2015-12-07T10:45:13Z DeadTrickster: once everything setup there is one year-long unmerged pull request
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2015-12-07T10:45:22Z DeadTrickster: and then we will start collection use-cases
2015-12-07T10:45:26Z DeadTrickster: collecting
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2015-12-07T10:46:22Z loke: Yay!
2015-12-07T10:46:31Z loke: You the maintainer of cl+ssl?
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2015-12-07T10:47:26Z DeadTrickster: well not me avodonosov is but he gave me green light
2015-12-07T10:48:16Z loke: DeadTrickster: Good. Can I assume that all with just automatically work, or will I have to add a flag to Drakma to make sure certs are validated?
2015-12-07T10:48:25Z loke: Or do you control it with some dynamic bidning?
2015-12-07T10:49:06Z DeadTrickster:  right now you can probably use new #
2015-12-07T10:49:09Z DeadTrickster: make-context
2015-12-07T10:49:20Z DeadTrickster: it has reasonable defaults that battle-tested
2015-12-07T10:49:30Z DeadTrickster: and with-global-context macro
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2015-12-07T10:50:08Z DeadTrickster: however sometimes drakma somehow manages to bypass even that
2015-12-07T10:50:16Z loke: I think a lot of code won't be updated. Wouldn't it make sense to have Drakma use validated connections by defaults?
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2015-12-07T10:50:58Z DeadTrickster: of course
2015-12-07T10:51:15Z DeadTrickster: but as I said we are waiting for that pull request merged
2015-12-07T10:51:21Z loke: Which one?
2015-12-07T10:51:22Z ukari: which one is better? http://paste.lisp.org/+3k1z
2015-12-07T10:51:29Z DeadTrickster: hostname validation
2015-12-07T10:51:49Z loke: ukari: Best for what?
2015-12-07T10:52:22Z ukari: getting function arguements
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2015-12-07T10:52:34Z loke: ukari: For what purpose?
2015-12-07T10:53:21Z ukari: loke: for a macro used to currying
2015-12-07T10:53:27Z scymtym__: ukari: SB-INTROSPECT:FUNCTION-ARGLIST is deprecated
2015-12-07T10:54:06Z scymtym__: between swank and sb-introspect, it depends on your requirements
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2015-12-07T10:58:31Z frosten: The Common Lisp has a reputation of an excellent language for a single programmers. What do you think about collaborative programming in Common Lisp? Is there are known issues for team development?
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2015-12-07T10:59:03Z pjb: frosten: it works for team developments too.
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2015-12-07T11:01:00Z frosten: pjb: how well it works?
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2015-12-07T11:04:58Z frosten: pjb: how the problem can be divided into the subparts? By dividing by packages?
2015-12-07T11:07:29Z ukari: frosten, maybe use git ?
2015-12-07T11:07:56Z frosten: ukari: wow :)
2015-12-07T11:09:44Z frosten: ukari: I dubious becase development in Common Lisp is image-based. So, what the developer should do after the each git pull? Reload the image?
2015-12-07T11:10:40Z SAL9000: Is an SBCL port available for OpenIndiana (Solaris) x86_64? If not, which CL implementation is recommended for this platform?
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2015-12-07T11:11:31Z frosten: SAL9000: http://sbcl.org/platform-table.html
2015-12-07T11:11:39Z ukari: frosten, too hard for me to answer
2015-12-07T11:12:14Z SAL9000: frosten: I imagine that the developers in the team could communicate -- in the commit messages or otherwise -- whether an image reload is needed, or just a ASDF system reload or /we.
2015-12-07T11:12:15Z SAL9000: w/e*
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2015-12-07T11:13:55Z frosten: SAL9000: in other words, the programmers should be disciplined enough
2015-12-07T11:14:14Z SAL9000: I imagine that is necessary whether they are using Lisp or not.
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2015-12-07T11:15:31Z frosten: SAL9000: I agree.
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2015-12-07T11:16:01Z SAL9000: On the other hand, Java etc. pretty much exists to corral mediocre programmers so that they cannot do too much damage.
2015-12-07T11:16:22Z varjag: restarting a lisp isn't such a big deal
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2015-12-07T11:17:27Z frosten: varjag: yes, just as C/C++ monothilic apps, for instance
2015-12-07T11:18:08Z frosten: well, the best practice is to restart Lisp after each source updates.
2015-12-07T11:20:02Z frosten: SAL9000: on the other hand, it would be nice to make money with programming in Lisp as with programming in Java :)
2015-12-07T11:22:17Z InvalidCo: java oop is a cruel joke on humanity
2015-12-07T11:22:34Z InvalidCo: not that there is any other type of java...
2015-12-07T11:23:10Z SAL9000: frosten: Amen to that.
2015-12-07T11:23:26Z InvalidCo: just yesterday I found out that while multiple inheritance is and has been a big no-no in java
2015-12-07T11:23:43Z InvalidCo: there's a new feature in 8 where you can add "default" methods to interfaces
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2015-12-07T11:24:20Z varjag: that's coming from industry's issues with multiple inheritance in c++
2015-12-07T11:24:21Z varjag: it kinda soured it
2015-12-07T11:24:38Z InvalidCo: mmh
2015-12-07T11:24:54Z varjag: yeah it didn't really ever work
2015-12-07T11:25:06Z varjag: other than in 3-liner textbook examples
2015-12-07T11:25:16Z InvalidCo: :)
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2015-12-07T11:25:51Z varjag: my gripe with java is antiquated execution model
2015-12-07T11:26:05Z varjag: more than any other (lack of) feature
2015-12-07T11:26:52Z InvalidCo: I'm not sure if you're talking about threading
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2015-12-07T11:27:11Z frosten: I know many good programmers which are not use Lisp just because it can't make money -- there are too few employers which demands Lisp, but there are a huge amount of them which demands Java. :(
2015-12-07T11:27:18Z varjag: no, more about things like 64k execution segments
2015-12-07T11:27:21Z varjag: in jvm
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2015-12-07T11:27:24Z InvalidCo: ah
2015-12-07T11:27:27Z varjag: or broken scoping
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2015-12-07T11:28:36Z InvalidCo: wait. are you saying that jvm is already an outdated architecture?
2015-12-07T11:28:53Z varjag: what do you mean already
2015-12-07T11:29:08Z varjag: it was designed to run on early 1990s microcontrollers
2015-12-07T11:29:12Z InvalidCo: heh
2015-12-07T11:29:25Z InvalidCo: guess I never gave it that much thought
2015-12-07T11:30:08Z varjag: if it was a physical cpu/hw it would've been on par with m68000 or i8088
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2015-12-07T11:32:05Z varjag: the only things i have that still use 64k code segments are my ancient palm pilot iiix and the jvm
2015-12-07T11:32:21Z varjag: except i don't try to run eclipse on palm iiix
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2015-12-07T11:40:19Z frosten: is Hunchensocket production ready?
2015-12-07T11:40:33Z frosten: I read somewhere it's not
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2015-12-07T11:57:54Z flip214: hmmm, impatient this grasshopper is.
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2015-12-07T12:17:15Z DeadTrickster: what 'production ready' means anyway?
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2015-12-07T12:23:37Z flip214: DeadTrickster: iso 9000 certified, and only crashes after 2 weeks notice.
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2015-12-07T12:27:17Z Xach: I don't know what others think, but I like to think of "production ready" as "when my app crashes, it's probably not from a production ready component"
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2015-12-07T12:29:57Z DeadTrickster: Xach, very close and broad at the same time. For example if app crashed due to bug in linux or sbcl are they not considered production ready too?
2015-12-07T12:30:05Z flip214: Xach: OTOH, "production" can be *so* many different environments that exhaustive tests are not possible; so, in a complex enough system (which some "hello world" today are already becoming), there's always a chance of unexpected state.
2015-12-07T12:30:07Z Xach: DeadTrickster: it depends on the rarity
2015-12-07T12:30:41Z Xach: that is why i think of "probably"
2015-12-07T12:31:05Z DeadTrickster: rarity and circumstances. what I'm trying to say is this: if it works it probably works )
2015-12-07T12:32:20Z DeadTrickster: however this doesn't consider performance for example.
2015-12-07T12:32:45Z DeadTrickster: can 100% correct and fail-safe but ugly slow code be production ready
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2015-12-07T12:33:30Z DeadTrickster: so when people use 'production ready' phrase I think they are trolling actually
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2015-12-07T12:34:41Z shka: DeadTrickster: sure it can
2015-12-07T12:35:18Z shka: 100% correct code is may be just what some people need
2015-12-07T12:35:23Z shka: (and never seem to get)
2015-12-07T12:35:53Z dwchandler: waiting for code to be perfect to be ready for production? that never happens
2015-12-07T12:36:19Z DeadTrickster: is it production ready should be always replied with 'define production ready' imo
2015-12-07T12:36:41Z shka: sure
2015-12-07T12:36:45Z dwchandler: yes
2015-12-07T12:36:45Z shka: the thing is
2015-12-07T12:36:53Z shka: that some software simply cannot fail
2015-12-07T12:36:57Z shka: it can be slow
2015-12-07T12:37:05Z shka: it can lack features
2015-12-07T12:37:09Z shka: but it can't fail
2015-12-07T12:37:19Z DeadTrickster: sadly everything can fail
2015-12-07T12:37:23Z DeadTrickster: and will
2015-12-07T12:37:26Z dwchandler: all systems can fail
2015-12-07T12:37:28Z DeadTrickster: just give it enough time
2015-12-07T12:37:29Z shka: sure
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2015-12-07T12:37:45Z shka: the thing is: you want to avoid it
2015-12-07T12:37:51Z dwchandler: So critical systems plan failure modes
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2015-12-07T12:37:56Z shka: and if this the only thing that matters…
2015-12-07T12:38:09Z DeadTrickster: tell what you want but erlang shifted my mind greatly on this topic
2015-12-07T12:38:12Z shka: you may not care about anything else
2015-12-07T12:38:24Z shka: DeadTrickster: care to elaborate?
2015-12-07T12:39:01Z dwchandler waits to hear about OTP and supervision trees and how that changes things :)
2015-12-07T12:39:14Z DeadTrickster: if it will fail just make sure 1) it won't affect the rest of the app 2) and yes supervision
2015-12-07T12:41:13Z shka: heh
2015-12-07T12:41:23Z shka: i wanted to try erlang some times ago
2015-12-07T12:41:29Z DeadTrickster: I like sbcl --disable-debugger dilemma. If error occured then sbcl enters debugger and since this is on server it simply hangs. if debugger disabled process exists immediately
2015-12-07T12:41:29Z shka: but went for cl instead
2015-12-07T12:41:37Z shka: you know the rest…
2015-12-07T12:42:19Z DeadTrickster: so either you wrap every thread in catch or prepare monit or another supervisor ;-)
2015-12-07T12:43:14Z dwchandler: shka: erlang/elixir is worth spending some time with, to see what they're up to. maybe some ideas are worth bringing back to CL
2015-12-07T12:43:23Z DeadTrickster: exactly
2015-12-07T12:44:10Z DeadTrickster: just elixir as an example of building community & ecosystem in such a short time is wonderful
2015-12-07T12:45:13Z DeadTrickster: however they stand on giant shoulders - I mean erts here
2015-12-07T12:45:55Z dwchandler: by design and with much acknowledgement
2015-12-07T12:46:18Z DeadTrickster: bright side of having just one implementation
2015-12-07T12:46:31Z DeadTrickster: they don't have to fight over function names :-)
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2015-12-07T12:47:12Z dwchandler: the BFDL model seems more responsive, too
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2015-12-07T12:47:37Z DeadTrickster: Benevolent dictator for life?
2015-12-07T12:47:42Z dwchandler: yah
2015-12-07T12:48:14Z dwchandler: quick turnaround on deciding how to move forward
2015-12-07T12:48:29Z dwchandler: bikeshedding can be shutdown
2015-12-07T12:48:39Z dwchandler: *shut down
2015-12-07T12:49:19Z DeadTrickster: I'm mean how many cl implementation do we have?
2015-12-07T12:50:03Z dwchandler: but anyway, erlang has an interesting take on production and how to handle it. other langs, including CL, could do worse than to have a look and borrow/adapt some things
2015-12-07T12:50:03Z DeadTrickster: take a look at orderaux threads I can't use it simply because sbcl supports timeouts but others not!
2015-12-07T12:50:24Z DeadTrickster: bordeaux
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2015-12-07T13:03:24Z Xach: varjag: i am having Trouble building cl-jpeg. updating sbcl to make sure it's not a transitory glitch.
2015-12-07T13:03:36Z dwchandler: at my job we have ~10K public facing servers. there WILL be crashes. every day. we can't pretend we can make things not crash, so how to handle them?
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2015-12-07T13:06:02Z varjag: Xach: i'm halfway in into redeclaring the types there, it's a bit of a mess
2015-12-07T13:06:09Z Xach: oh no :(
2015-12-07T13:06:18Z varjag: and ccl has own ideas what should be inferred there
2015-12-07T13:06:26Z Xach: varjag: is there anything i can do to get a version that builds on sbcl 1.3.1 today?
2015-12-07T13:06:34Z dwchandler: so we have to plan for the best way to fail and how to get back into service quickly
2015-12-07T13:07:03Z varjag: Xach: could you try the pre-merge version of cl-jpeg on it?
2015-12-07T13:09:20Z varjag: back to d0ecaa6af86f2e6d75ed2fb044e33b996904bb89
2015-12-07T13:09:25Z varjag: eh
2015-12-07T13:09:51Z varjag: the sept. 4 commit
2015-12-07T13:11:39Z DeadTrickster: Xach, why can't you use latest tag? because usually there is now tags?
2015-12-07T13:11:48Z DeadTrickster: no
2015-12-07T13:11:54Z Xach: DeadTrickster: there is no tag.
2015-12-07T13:12:33Z Xach: varjag: d0ecaa6 is the sept 4 commit?
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2015-12-07T13:12:50Z varjag: yep
2015-12-07T13:13:06Z varjag: that's before the array type declaration changes
2015-12-07T13:13:11Z DeadTrickster: can your tools detect latest tag and use it automatically? or it is better to keep master in good shape?
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2015-12-07T13:17:36Z Xach: DeadTrickster: I haven't noticed a widespread practice of using tags to designate good versions for lisp projects
2015-12-07T13:17:54Z Xach: DeadTrickster: I very much *would* like to make my tools detect the latest github "release" thing and use it
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2015-12-07T13:24:50Z DeadTrickster: Xach, good to hear, cool
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2015-12-07T13:25:50Z DeadTrickster: again, why version string should be moved from asd to separate file?
2015-12-07T13:26:24Z Xach wonders what would be good to use as a cl-jpeg tag in this case
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2015-12-07T15:30:24Z shka: hmm
2015-12-07T15:30:42Z shka: i'm wondering how to use quid pro quo to setup assertions on async methods
2015-12-07T15:30:46Z shka: is it even possible
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2015-12-07T15:50:53Z ukari: (defun f (x y) (- x y)), how to get the function's body (- x y)
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2015-12-07T15:51:19Z Xach: ukari: there is no reliable standard way
2015-12-07T15:51:44Z Xach: ukari: you can make something to do it, that uses defun underneath, but also does some bookkeeping, if you like
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2015-12-07T16:55:08Z jasom: Xach: IIRC github generates a git tag for each release
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2015-12-07T16:57:19Z Xach: I think that's true, yeah. And they have an API to map from project name to versioned releases to download URLs.
2015-12-07T16:57:23Z dwchandler: jasom: github generates a "release" for each tag. there's nothing automatic. someone must tag
2015-12-07T16:57:36Z dwchandler: afaik
2015-12-07T16:58:17Z jasom: dwchandler: you're right, I have it backwards, it generates a release for the tag not the other way around
2015-12-07T16:58:20Z Xach: dwchandler: Oh, that seems to be the case.
2015-12-07T16:58:21Z dwchandler: otoh, tagging and then pushing tags is trivial
2015-12-07T16:58:31Z Xach: I thought a release was more separate from tags.
2015-12-07T16:58:56Z Xach: I guess they add a bit more UI to it.
2015-12-07T16:59:10Z dwchandler: github has extras for releases, like attaching binaries and other stuff, but it's built around tagging I think
2015-12-07T16:59:40Z dwchandler <-- not an expert but has played with it a little
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2015-12-07T17:01:16Z jasom just checked: When you hit the "create release" you can either create a new tag or use an existing one
2015-12-07T17:01:28Z jasom: but there is always a tag for each release, though there may be non-release tags
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2015-12-07T17:04:59Z dwchandler: also, tags are independant of github, so it would work for gitlab or whatever. it's the canonical way to label a release
2015-12-07T17:05:16Z dwchandler: same concept for hg
2015-12-07T17:07:00Z dwchandler: or cvs for that matter ;-)
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2015-12-07T17:16:53Z Xach: I have lost track. Is the/a Ceramic ceramic person around?
2015-12-07T17:17:00Z Xach: I can't build it because it depends on quicklisp.
2015-12-07T17:20:57Z ukari: is it illegal to recursive macro in it's defmacro? http://paste.lisp.org/+3k2n
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2015-12-07T17:26:59Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-12-07T17:27:24Z oleo: evening beach
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2015-12-07T17:29:20Z beach: ukari: [reading the logs] There are many problems with that code.  What are you trying to do?
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2015-12-07T17:30:53Z beach: ukari: For one thing, your expansion (if it ever happens) will look something like: (lambda ((car <something>)) (...)) but that lambda list is not legal.
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2015-12-07T17:31:46Z ukari: hola, beach
2015-12-07T17:32:09Z beach: ukari: Second, macros don't evaluate their arguments, so in the call to CURRY, you pass it (QUOTE (X Y Z)) which is going to be the value of ARG inside the body of the macro.
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2015-12-07T17:37:57Z beach: ukari: Third, you are defining a macro, but in the code for defining that macro, there is a use of (CURRY ...).  Since the macro is not yet defined, the compiler will either complain or (more likely) assume that CURRY is a function and generate code as if it were.  This code will then be incorrect because you define CURRY as a macro.
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2015-12-07T17:46:42Z ukari: i rewrite that, http://paste.lisp.org/+3k2o
2015-12-07T17:47:57Z ukari: why it treat cdr as a variable but not as a function call
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2015-12-07T17:48:58Z beach: Again, macros don't evaluate their arguments.
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2015-12-07T17:49:41Z beach: When you do (curry (cdr args) (...)), the value of the ARGS parameter inside CURRY will be the list consisting of the symbol CDR and the symbol ARGS.
2015-12-07T17:49:42Z dwchandler: It's what makes macros special :)
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2015-12-07T17:49:50Z ukari: macros call don't eval arguements too?
2015-12-07T17:50:33Z beach: ukari: If you don't know how macro calls work, perhaps you should not use macros.
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2015-12-07T17:51:01Z beach: ukari: Do you have reasons to believe that a function can't do the work?
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2015-12-07T17:52:02Z ukari: you right, it seems no need for macro, i try again
2015-12-07T17:52:31Z beach: Good luck.  Dinner is ready, it seems...
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2015-12-07T18:05:43Z sjl: is there a way to left/right shift bit arrays?  ash only works on numbers and I can't seem to find anything like bit-and for shifting
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2015-12-07T18:07:40Z Xach: sjl: FILL, sort of?
2015-12-07T18:08:16Z Xach: sjl: I wonder if SBCL and others make it as fast as it could be.
2015-12-07T18:08:25Z sjl: Xach: fill with copy-seq you mean?
2015-12-07T18:08:38Z Xach: sjl: no. fill can take the same array as source and target.
2015-12-07T18:08:43Z sjl: ah
2015-12-07T18:08:49Z Xach: oh, wait...not fill
2015-12-07T18:09:00Z Xach: replace, maybe?
2015-12-07T18:09:28Z Xach: yes, REPLACE is what I was thinking of.
2015-12-07T18:09:31Z Xach: sorry about that.
2015-12-07T18:09:41Z sjl: yeah this looks more promising
2015-12-07T18:09:42Z sjl: hmm
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2015-12-07T18:11:25Z sjl: ah, it's destructive though, unlike bit-and and friends
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2015-12-07T18:12:42Z Xach: bit-and and friends can be destructive, though
2015-12-07T18:12:44Z rick-monster` is now known as rick-monster
2015-12-07T18:12:54Z Xach: i have used that feature and enjoyed that it's there
2015-12-07T18:13:37Z sjl: I guess I'll just write my own
2015-12-07T18:13:39Z sjl: using replace
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2015-12-07T18:14:05Z shka: hmm
2015-12-07T18:14:12Z shka: it is not directly related to lisp
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2015-12-07T18:14:33Z shka: but i guess this may turn out to be right place to ask this question here
2015-12-07T18:15:05Z kruhft: go for it
2015-12-07T18:15:24Z shka: i want to implement data base-ish sort of a thing
2015-12-07T18:15:36Z shka: that is i have nodes in tree (more or less)
2015-12-07T18:15:52Z shka: obviously, i need to store those on disk
2015-12-07T18:16:10Z shka: i'm trying to figure out how to optimally handle opening those
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2015-12-07T18:16:31Z kruhft: on disk b-tree?
2015-12-07T18:16:46Z shka: my current idea is that all disk operations should be performed async
2015-12-07T18:16:48Z dim: do you need transactions and crash-safety?
2015-12-07T18:16:55Z shka: kruhft: not b-tree
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2015-12-07T18:17:28Z shka: dim: crash-safety: yes, transactions: not so much
2015-12-07T18:18:24Z shka: if i can get crash-safety without transactions it is fine
2015-12-07T18:18:46Z dim: async means you can have crash-safety only with data loss
2015-12-07T18:19:28Z dim: all you can achieve is to avoid corruption and arrange for the service to start again with some version of the data set
2015-12-07T18:19:30Z shka: right
2015-12-07T18:20:15Z shka: how real word data bases deal with it?
2015-12-07T18:20:16Z dim: if you want strong guarantees and a battle-proof system, I recommend using PostgreSQL, unless what you want is an educational project about how to do that
2015-12-07T18:20:29Z dim: shka: Write-Ahead Logs, mainly
2015-12-07T18:20:35Z shka: right
2015-12-07T18:21:11Z shka: well, general purpose data base will not be well suited for things i want to do
2015-12-07T18:21:20Z shka: plus i want to learn something
2015-12-07T18:21:29Z dim: so double entry system (every write is done twice), usually WAL written in sync mode (think journalisation of the file system metadata and/or data), and you have a checkpoint process to truncate the WAL stream at known times
2015-12-07T18:21:49Z dim: "will not be well suited" == you did the research and POC already?
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2015-12-07T18:22:40Z Xach: what i learned from working on adding transactions a homegrown database system was that it's nice to use postgres if you can.
2015-12-07T18:23:06Z shka: dim: will not be well suited == i really, really want to do it myself
2015-12-07T18:23:13Z shka: mostly
2015-12-07T18:23:15Z shka: ;-)
2015-12-07T18:24:07Z shka: i am aware that this is proabbly not ideal way to get things right
2015-12-07T18:24:11Z shka: but at the same time
2015-12-07T18:24:16Z shka: i am not getting paid for that
2015-12-07T18:24:18Z dim: then I will only add a last remark about PostgreSQL: it really is a "database kernel" and you can go a very long way into adding your own features into it without ever having to recompile/fork the main system (see the contrib modules and extensions for examples, one of them being PostGIS)
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2015-12-07T18:25:09Z dim: consider that a new file system usually takes 5 years before the main production outage class bugs are solved, and you're talking about data and crash safety here, so you'll learn a lot on the way
2015-12-07T18:25:49Z dim: educational and production ready, when we talk about data... it's pretty hard to have both, unless you're very much not in a hurry
2015-12-07T18:26:01Z sjl: Xach: does this look sane for the shifting ? http://paste.stevelosh.com/5665cef827c4ca000793e617?lisp
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2015-12-07T18:33:20Z shka: dim: on the other hand, there is no chance i will be able to learn this stuff with my day job
2015-12-07T18:33:29Z shka: so doing this stuff is perhaps my only option
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2015-12-07T18:40:42Z shka: on the other hand, how in the name of everything sacred was PostGIS implemented
2015-12-07T18:40:52Z shka: they are using R-Tress there?
2015-12-07T18:41:30Z Xach: sjl: looks all right to me. since it works only on vectors, i think LENGTH would be more terse than ARRAY-DIMENSION there.
2015-12-07T18:41:42Z sjl: ah yeah
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2015-12-07T19:45:45Z warweasle: Will eq test if a cons cell is the same cons cell?
2015-12-07T19:45:53Z kruhft: no
2015-12-07T19:46:17Z kruhft: well, it's not supposed to; eq is defined only for symbols
2015-12-07T19:46:57Z warweasle: kruhft: Ok, thanks.
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2015-12-07T19:47:24Z kruhft: use eql
2015-12-07T19:47:43Z warweasle: kruhft: I need to know what parts of two lists are shared.
2015-12-07T19:47:49Z dlowe: what?
2015-12-07T19:47:59Z dlowe: EQ works fine on cons cells
2015-12-07T19:48:11Z kruhft: isn't it implementation dependent?
2015-12-07T19:48:13Z dlowe: and kruhft doesn't know what they are talking about
2015-12-07T19:48:14Z dlowe: No.
2015-12-07T19:48:27Z shka: eq is mostly pointer comparsion iirc
2015-12-07T19:48:33Z kruhft: hmm, must be thinking of the original lisp paper by accident
2015-12-07T19:48:35Z dlowe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/f_eq.htm
2015-12-07T19:48:45Z shka: warweasle: that sounds problematic
2015-12-07T19:48:52Z shka: are you sure that you need this?
2015-12-07T19:49:01Z dlowe: Now, EQL on a cons cell is exactly the same as EQ
2015-12-07T19:49:09Z warweasle: shka: No. I just thought it would speed up a diff algorithm.
2015-12-07T19:49:14Z shka: i see
2015-12-07T19:49:15Z dlowe: so you can use one or the other for aesthetic reasons
2015-12-07T19:49:29Z shka: ok, good to know
2015-12-07T19:49:35Z dlowe: I prefer to use EQL on everything unless I really need EQ, which is pretty much never
2015-12-07T19:49:38Z shka: btw, what are you workin on? ;-)
2015-12-07T19:49:45Z warweasle: shka: If it's the same cons cell, then the sub-tree should be equal, right?
2015-12-07T19:50:10Z kruhft: not necessarily
2015-12-07T19:50:32Z shka: hmmm
2015-12-07T19:50:33Z oGMo: yes necessarily
2015-12-07T19:50:41Z shka: warweasle: it sounds like it should
2015-12-07T19:50:42Z kruhft: what if the subtree has been mutated?
2015-12-07T19:50:52Z shka: at least i can't figure other countes scenario
2015-12-07T19:51:03Z oGMo: kruhft: what if it had? you're still pointing to literally the same object
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2015-12-07T19:51:10Z shka: kruhft: than it was mutated in both trees
2015-12-07T19:51:16Z oGMo: there are no _both_
2015-12-07T19:51:22Z shka: well, yeah
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2015-12-07T19:51:29Z oGMo: it's either EQ, and there's one object, or it's not EQ
2015-12-07T19:51:32Z dlowe: yes necessarily
2015-12-07T19:51:35Z kruhft: ok, maybe i'm wrong again, i'll shut up
2015-12-07T19:51:50Z dlowe: EQ returns true when the two arguments are the exact same object.
2015-12-07T19:52:06Z shka: on the other hand, i'm interested what are you doing
2015-12-07T19:52:09Z dlowe: You're thinking that two objects with the same printed representation might not be the exact same object
2015-12-07T19:52:11Z shka: since it sounds like fun
2015-12-07T19:52:20Z dlowe: but that's not the situation here.
2015-12-07T19:52:43Z warweasle: shka: I'm writing a sexp tree diff tool.
2015-12-07T19:53:04Z shka: oh!
2015-12-07T19:53:09Z shka: i wanted to do that
2015-12-07T19:53:16Z warweasle: shka: I'm going to use it as an API to safely update remote data trees.
2015-12-07T19:53:26Z shka: right
2015-12-07T19:54:07Z shka: so it is like this: run some functional code on tree, get another tree, get diff?
2015-12-07T19:54:11Z warweasle: shka: Which will update a 3D renderer.
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2015-12-07T19:54:29Z shka: heh, it gets even better :D
2015-12-07T19:54:39Z warweasle: shka: Yes. And since it's remote...I will never get an exact copy of cons cells...DOH!
2015-12-07T19:54:40Z shka: so this tree is scene graph?
2015-12-07T19:54:58Z shka: well, yes
2015-12-07T19:55:15Z shka: perhaps you should not use naked cons cells
2015-12-07T19:55:21Z Xach: eudoxia: did you see the issue with trivial-build?
2015-12-07T19:55:29Z shka: or perhaps it is not worth the effort
2015-12-07T19:55:29Z Xach: eudoxia: it is inhibiting ceramic on ql today
2015-12-07T19:55:35Z warweasle: shka: Sort of. It's a tree based JIT language which can rebuild subtrees and update data on demand.
2015-12-07T19:55:48Z eudoxia: Xach: yes, i just got back home
2015-12-07T19:56:01Z eudoxia: i'm thinking i can maybe just have it load asdf if quicklisp is unavailable
2015-12-07T19:56:10Z Xach: ok
2015-12-07T19:56:12Z eudoxia: anyways i'll fix it ~soon~
2015-12-07T19:56:15Z shka: warweasle: what about sticking id to cons cells?
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2015-12-07T19:56:44Z shka: or actually using structs instead of cons cells
2015-12-07T19:57:03Z warweasle: shka: I was going to create a "buffer" object which would have a UUID, but not for every cell.
2015-12-07T19:57:13Z shka: aha
2015-12-07T19:57:23Z shka: i guess you need to figure this thing out
2015-12-07T19:57:48Z shka: warweasle: good luck with this project, it sounds interesting!
2015-12-07T19:58:03Z warweasle: shka: Right now I have some 2D stuff working. Where I have a buffer for text and another buffer for the attributes. It outputs rich text.
2015-12-07T19:58:35Z warweasle: shka: You update one and the texture should update too.
2015-12-07T19:59:12Z shka: well, i don't know much about graphics to be honest
2015-12-07T19:59:14Z warweasle: shka: It's all lisp code so you can just eval it. Safety is not a concern at this time.
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2015-12-07T19:59:38Z warweasle: shka: I don't know if anyone can say they do.
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2015-12-07T20:01:19Z shka: warweasle: is it open source?
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2015-12-07T20:02:29Z warweasle: shka: It will be.
2015-12-07T20:02:48Z shka: cool
2015-12-07T20:02:58Z warweasle: shka: You can find most of it in https://github.com/BradWBeer/cl-pango
2015-12-07T20:03:43Z shka: good
2015-12-07T20:03:54Z shka: i may be interested in the future
2015-12-07T20:04:09Z shka: thubs up
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2015-12-07T20:05:12Z warweasle: shka: I'm more than happy to post my test code. I'm just working out this other piece. Eventually I'll create the "buffer" logic and then add 3D stuff.
2015-12-07T20:05:50Z shka: hmm, no time to play with this right now
2015-12-07T20:05:56Z shka: sorry :/
2015-12-07T20:06:14Z warweasle: It's fine. Just ask if you ever are.
2015-12-07T20:06:22Z shka: but I have idea for small semi-strategic game
2015-12-07T20:06:33Z shka: that i never really could start working on
2015-12-07T20:06:54Z shka: and i wish some day i may use something like that for rendering
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2015-12-07T20:08:21Z warweasle: shka: Oh, it works with CL-Cairo2 and you can use CL-Freeimage to save/load images.
2015-12-07T20:08:43Z shka: good to know
2015-12-07T20:08:50Z warweasle: shka: Makes kind of a lisp SVG
2015-12-07T20:09:09Z shka: heh, that's quite sweet
2015-12-07T20:09:30Z shka: ability to represent stuff with lisp code is always cool
2015-12-07T20:11:56Z warweasle: shka: That's the entire idea of mine. Text, text attributes, vector draw commands, 3D meshes, etc. All lisp. All updates when you change their trees. Also, it can all be kept in a single tree. Sort of an infinitely extendible file format. With built in scripting!
2015-12-07T20:12:23Z shka: i see where are you going to with that
2015-12-07T20:12:42Z shka: that's how i'm selling common lisp
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2015-12-07T20:13:31Z warweasle: shka: I'm not sure if I want to call it 3Dmacs or Qix.
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2015-12-07T20:14:08Z Jonsky: I have a n00b question
2015-12-07T20:14:11Z shka: "see, xml is basicly language that is extensible, right? common lisp is like xml, but it can also be executed if you need to, and happens to have dozens of awesome features"
2015-12-07T20:14:17Z shka: Jonsky: sure, go one
2015-12-07T20:14:17Z Jonsky: (funcall #'and 1 2)
2015-12-07T20:14:23Z Jonsky: Why is it invalid?
2015-12-07T20:14:26Z shka: Jonsky: and is just not a function
2015-12-07T20:14:38Z Jonsky: but I tried (fboundp 'and)
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2015-12-07T20:14:58Z shka: Jonsky: sure, but it still is not a function ;-)
2015-12-07T20:15:12Z Jonsky: argh, (fbounp) is  a liar!!
2015-12-07T20:15:28Z shka: Jonsky: try that:
2015-12-07T20:15:31Z shka: (function and)
2015-12-07T20:15:43Z Jonsky: so I guess i have to wrap a lambda on it
2015-12-07T20:15:49Z shka: yes
2015-12-07T20:15:53Z shka: and is a macro
2015-12-07T20:16:01Z Jonsky: I'm trying to write a short circuit version of fold
2015-12-07T20:16:07Z shka: aha
2015-12-07T20:16:11Z Jonsky: so it takes a binary function
2015-12-07T20:16:22Z shka: easy
2015-12-07T20:16:28Z Jonsky: and if things go wrong (nil is returned) then it stops
2015-12-07T20:16:36Z shka: Jonsky: so, basicly reduce?
2015-12-07T20:16:42Z Xach: Jonsky: the usual trick is (every #'identity list)
2015-12-07T20:16:49Z Jonsky:  like a reduce with error check
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2015-12-07T20:17:03Z shka: Jonsky: easy, do the following
2015-12-07T20:17:14Z shka: write function that will call reduce
2015-12-07T20:17:21Z Jonsky: I saw something like that in haskell but haskell requires wrapping things in a weird type called Just
2015-12-07T20:17:38Z shka: and wrap passed callback in closure
2015-12-07T20:17:40Z Jonsky: And I thought to myself ,"Why don't I just write it in lisp ?"
2015-12-07T20:17:45Z shka: that will return earlier
2015-12-07T20:18:16Z shka: Jonsky: pro tip: you can return to every place on stack
2015-12-07T20:18:21Z shka: for instance
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2015-12-07T20:19:10Z Jonsky: hang on I am not sure I understand "wrap passed callback in closure". I understand what closure is but I don't understand other words in the sentence
2015-12-07T20:19:25Z Jonsky: Sorry again for my n00bness
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2015-12-07T20:20:58Z shka: Jonsky: (block test (reduce (lambda (a b) (let ((p (+ a b))) (if (> p 8) (return-from test p) p))) '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7)))
2015-12-07T20:21:03Z shka: Jonsky: i mean that
2015-12-07T20:21:10Z shka: dunno about haskell
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2015-12-07T20:21:57Z Xach: Jonsky: EVERY stops when it sees a nil.
2015-12-07T20:22:22Z shka: i forgot about every
2015-12-07T20:22:24Z Jonsky: Xach: Gosh of course!!! I'm so stupid
2015-12-07T20:22:41Z Xach: There's no evidence of that so far
2015-12-07T20:22:50Z shka: Jonsky: worry not, i keep forgetting about every as well
2015-12-07T20:22:54Z Jonsky: Oh hang on it's different.
2015-12-07T20:23:05Z Jonsky: Every is a test for all the members in a list
2015-12-07T20:23:16Z shka: perhaps becasue it is not painfull enough
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2015-12-07T20:23:23Z shka: Jonsky: apply instead of funcall?
2015-12-07T20:23:28Z shka: and you are golden
2015-12-07T20:23:29Z Jonsky: I'm trying to do something like (fold-nil #'+ '(1 2 3 nil 4))
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2015-12-07T20:23:42Z Jonsky: if nil is not there, it will just sum everything
2015-12-07T20:23:46Z Jonsky: now nil is there, it stops
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2015-12-07T20:25:29Z shka: Jonsky: i think that instead of trying to do it this way, you should simply use reduce but wrap your function with closure
2015-12-07T20:25:37Z shka: but that's just me
2015-12-07T20:25:45Z Jonsky: shka: Thanks for the (block test...) tip. It's really cool. Somehow I'm still not used to use (block )
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2015-12-07T20:25:57Z warweasle: Has anyone done a diff/patch for sexps?
2015-12-07T20:25:59Z dlowe: many things will create an implicit block
2015-12-07T20:26:08Z shka: Jonsky: because it is sort low level
2015-12-07T20:26:25Z shka: as dlowe says, mostly lisp is doing it for you
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2015-12-07T20:27:06Z shka: anyway, you can write it this way
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2015-12-07T20:27:27Z Xach: warweasle: yes
2015-12-07T20:27:35Z shka: and if somehow syntax will looks clumsy, you can macro it
2015-12-07T20:27:42Z eudoxia: Xach: i think i fixed it
2015-12-07T20:27:45Z Xach: warweasle: http://lemonodor.com/archives/001226.html
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2015-12-07T20:28:11Z shka: Xach: lemondor is your page?
2015-12-07T20:28:12Z Xach: eudoxia: looks good here, i'll retry ceramic too
2015-12-07T20:28:14Z Xach: shka: no.
2015-12-07T20:28:18Z shka: ok
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2015-12-07T20:28:39Z shka: been wondering if names stands from what i think it stands from
2015-12-07T20:28:46Z Xach: i do have a ten-year-old comment on that page though
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2015-12-07T20:30:20Z Jonsky: Thanks you so much guys. You are awesomely helpful and friendly.
2015-12-07T20:30:36Z warweasle: Xach: Oh, That's what I've been using. I need to modify how it renders the output. I would prefer a list of positions (3 3 2 5 + old new)
2015-12-07T20:31:32Z shka: Jonsky: you are welcome! have fun!
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2015-12-07T20:33:42Z warweasle: Xach: Is there a patch function?
2015-12-07T20:33:54Z Xach: warweasle: i don't know, sorry. i have never used diff-sexp
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2015-12-07T20:34:56Z warweasle: Xach: K, thanks
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2015-12-07T21:58:54Z dreamaddict: here’s my anagram solver so far (never mind the inefficiencies, I just want it to find anagrams right now)
2015-12-07T21:58:56Z dreamaddict: http://codetidy.com/7527/
2015-12-07T21:59:15Z dreamaddict: I can’t figure out how to get use-word to recurse such that it can find phrases
2015-12-07T21:59:39Z dreamaddict: or, how to accumulate found phrases…because I suck at recursion (for now)
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2015-12-07T22:00:32Z Xach_: dreamaddict: I'd like to review the code, but the unconventional formatting for the control flow makes it hard for me to read.
2015-12-07T22:00:44Z dreamaddict: I don’t know how it is “supposed” to be formatted :P
2015-12-07T22:00:44Z Xach_: it's not super-terrible, but it's off enough that it slows me down.
2015-12-07T22:01:16Z dreamaddict: I tried to put some structure to it according to what other lisp code I’ve seen vaguely looks like but no, I don’t know how it is supposed to look
2015-12-07T22:01:29Z Xach_: dreamaddict: the IF in particular is trouble for me. if it's on multiple lines, the test should follow IF, then the consequent and alternative should be aligned under the test.
2015-12-07T22:01:37Z DeadTrickster: Xach_, have you seen something "portable compare-and-swap" in Quicklisp?
2015-12-07T22:01:51Z Xach_: DeadTrickster: hmm, i feel like i have, but i can't remember the name or names :(
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2015-12-07T22:02:21Z Xach_: like a trivial-cas or something. nothing shows up in apropos, though.
2015-12-07T22:02:55Z Xach_: dreamaddict: in general, nested forms should indent. so the body of a LET should be more to the right, not in line with the opening of the let.
2015-12-07T22:03:15Z dreamaddict: ok I’ll try to  clean some of this up
2015-12-07T22:03:28Z Xach_: dreamaddict: it might be easier to read if instead of (if test nil <body>) you just did (unless test body)
2015-12-07T22:03:33Z Xach_: with proper indentation, of course
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2015-12-07T22:04:00Z Xach_: dreamaddict: do you use emacs? that can make it easier. otherwise, copying other code carefully is the way to go.
2015-12-07T22:04:04Z DeadTrickster: actually there is trivial-cas package in chanl. funny thing - code stolen from somewhere already. so I'll stole it too )
2015-12-07T22:04:12Z dreamaddict: actually I use vim in one window and sbcl in another
2015-12-07T22:04:23Z DeadTrickster: and sadly it supports ccl and sbcl only
2015-12-07T22:04:35Z dreamaddict: I don’t usually make things in LISP, this is the maiden voyage (this project)
2015-12-07T22:05:13Z Xach_: dreamaddict: overall the code looks like a good first effort. things often start off with more than a little vague confusion. but it's hard for me to get into the control flow with the formatting.
2015-12-07T22:05:34Z dreamaddict: it works
2015-12-07T22:05:58Z dreamaddict: which is my favorite part…but sure, my LISP conventions are shitty
2015-12-07T22:06:03Z DeadTrickster: Xach_, should portability be serious concern when proposing library for QL?
2015-12-07T22:06:17Z dreamaddict: ok so, instead of (if (not test) nil), use unless?
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2015-12-07T22:06:59Z mordocai: DeadTrickster: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/01/getting-library-into-quicklisp.html
2015-12-07T22:07:03Z mordocai: TLDR: Yes
2015-12-07T22:07:07Z Xach_: dreamaddict: (if (not test) nil body) is better written (when test body)
2015-12-07T22:07:16Z dreamaddict: ok
2015-12-07T22:07:22Z Xach_: dreamaddict: (if test nil body) is better written (unless test body)
2015-12-07T22:07:35Z dreamaddict: ok so I’ll fix those with when
2015-12-07T22:07:45Z Xach_: they're easier to indent, too
2015-12-07T22:08:02Z dreamaddict: I wanted to be sure that it did exactly what I wanted, so that the checks would evaluate in the right order
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2015-12-07T22:09:37Z dreamaddict: the when conditional will return nil if it fails, right?
2015-12-07T22:09:58Z Xach_: yes. same with unless.
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2015-12-07T22:16:01Z dreamaddict: http://codetidy.com/7528/
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2015-12-07T22:16:10Z dreamaddict: still probably not right but some of it is fixed up
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2015-12-07T22:20:49Z DeadTrickster: is it even possible? take bt from example. yes it provides uniformed interface but internals still implementation specific and so behavior
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2015-12-07T22:23:14Z mordocai: DeadTrickster: Right, I believe the general idea is that it should "work" on multiple implementations, not necessarily that it works identically. Xach_ correct me if I'm wrong there.
2015-12-07T22:23:44Z Xach_: I prefer things that are meant to work on more than just one implementation
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2015-12-07T22:24:57Z pjb: LOL: <InvalidCo> there's a new feature in 8 where you can add "default" methods to interfaces LOL :-)
2015-12-07T22:25:05Z Xach_: dreamaddict: the body of DEFUN (and WHEN & UNLESS) should go in two spaces.
2015-12-07T22:25:27Z dreamaddict: two spaces?
2015-12-07T22:25:30Z dreamaddict: instead of an indent
2015-12-07T22:25:48Z dreamaddict: damn it I am going to have to learn emacs aren’t I
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2015-12-07T22:26:00Z dreamaddict: to get this to format properly without having to remember all of how it is supposed to go
2015-12-07T22:27:09Z Xach_: dreamaddict: it's pretty consistent
2015-12-07T22:27:14Z flip214: dreamaddict: you can use vim with slimv, too - if that's easier than learning a new editor.
2015-12-07T22:27:14Z pjb: If you just use M-q in the form, emacs will indent it consistently.
2015-12-07T22:27:28Z Xach_: dreamaddict: most things that have multi-line bodies indent two spaces. other things line up under the thing on the previous line.
2015-12-07T22:27:33Z pjb: (and if indenting is "inconsistent", then it's a sign you made a mistake with the parentheses).
2015-12-07T22:27:38Z dreamaddict: I like vim-style editing commands as opposed to three-keys-simultaneously things in emacs, is the thing
2015-12-07T22:27:49Z dreamaddict: ok I was just using tab for pretty much every indent
2015-12-07T22:27:51Z Xach_: dreamaddict: you'd get quite a ways if you are consistent...you indent WHEN multiple different ways, for example.
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2015-12-07T22:31:21Z Xach_: dreamaddict: It would also help a bit if you had an overarching description of the problem. What you have in comments is a little low-level for me, i.e. "here's what i'm doing" instead of "here's the problem and here's the strategy for solving it"
2015-12-07T22:31:47Z dreamaddict: that’s the part I am having trouble envisioning
2015-12-07T22:32:01Z dreamaddict: basically, use-word should recurse and then spit out a bunch of phrases at the end of the traversing
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2015-12-07T22:32:42Z pjb: DeadTrickster: http://cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation
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2015-12-07T22:33:27Z dreamaddict: but…should I use a global variable for that?  or is there a way to have something in let that can be accessed by the function after it recurses?
2015-12-07T22:33:29Z pjb: DeadTrickster: given that most of them are free software, you're free to write a CDR to specify timeouts and to implement them in each of them.
2015-12-07T22:34:04Z dreamaddict: like, at the base level of invocation, there is a big list…as it recurses, when it reaches an end and has a whole phrase, is there a way that it can reach back however many levels of recursion and put the result in the list at the top level
2015-12-07T22:34:14Z dreamaddict: or do you basically just use a global variable for that
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2015-12-07T22:36:37Z dreamaddict: really I just have trouble translating what I want a function to do into something recursive
2015-12-07T22:36:56Z dreamaddict: it’s OK, at least the code itself is decent at least
2015-12-07T22:37:16Z pjb: minion: memo for ukari: when the implementation lets you do it, it's thru FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION; for example, in clisp: (function-lambda-expression (function f)) --> (LAMBDA (X Y) (DECLARE (SYSTEM::IN-DEFUN F)) (BLOCK F (- X Y))) ; #(NIL NIL NIL NIL ((DECLARATION OPTIMIZE DECLARATION))) ; F.  Otherwise have a look at ibcl: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2015-12-07T22:37:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell ukari when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-12-07T22:43:25Z didi: I am trying to understand the reader algorithm and invalid chars. Only Backspace and Rubout (I don't know what "Rubout" is) are invalid chars?
2015-12-07T22:43:58Z didi: So, say `á', is a valid char?
2015-12-07T22:44:43Z pjb: Not necessarily.
2015-12-07T22:44:56Z didi: Well, I guess there isn't a "valid char" category.
2015-12-07T22:45:00Z pjb: the list of constituent characters is left to the implementation.
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2015-12-07T22:45:10Z didi: pjb: Hum.
2015-12-07T22:45:24Z pjb: But you could expect that á is a constituent character, otherwise, complain.
2015-12-07T22:45:34Z didi: oic
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2015-12-07T22:46:29Z pjb: didi: notice that Unicode defines several categories of characters. There's no CL API to query them, or specification to map them to CL character traits.  In consequence, there may be some inconsistency of treatement by the different implementations.
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2015-12-07T22:46:43Z pjb: didi: it'd be interesting to have a precise survey of those details.
2015-12-07T22:46:57Z pjb: For example, CLISP has a better table of unicode character names, than eg. CCL.
2015-12-07T22:47:35Z didi: pjb: This is interesting. So an invalid trait is more like a blacklist.
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2015-12-07T22:49:24Z pjb: Until you define a reader macro on it, or change the syntax of the character with set-syntax-from-char.
2015-12-07T22:49:37Z didi nods
2015-12-07T22:50:02Z pjb: (set-syntax-from-char #\bs #\space) 'hello\world --> HELLO\WORLD
2015-12-07T22:50:23Z pjb: even better:
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2015-12-07T22:51:16Z pjb: Oops, (set-syntax-from-char #\bs #\a) 'helloworld doesn't work in ccl.
2015-12-07T22:51:25Z didi: So what trait an implementation would give for the thousands of unicode characters?
2015-12-07T22:51:40Z pjb: in general, it'll be constitent by default.
2015-12-07T22:52:12Z didi: But what trait? AIUI each constituent character has also a trait.
2015-12-07T22:52:20Z pjb: 'здраствуйте
2015-12-07T22:52:23Z pillton: How can I tell ASDF to ignore files in ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d
2015-12-07T22:52:24Z pjb: 'здраствуйте #| --> здраствуйте |#
2015-12-07T22:54:01Z pillton: Actually. Forget it. I'll just go back to the deprecated way.
2015-12-07T22:55:20Z dreamaddict: http://codetidy.com/7529/
2015-12-07T22:55:22Z dreamaddict: third draft
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2015-12-07T22:58:25Z pjb: didi: right. the constituent trait is used to determine the parsing of the token.  The implementation will have to classify the unicode characters into the various constitient traits (this can be done by unicode "category of characters", I don't know the exact unicode terminology).   Most unicode character will have the alphabetic trait (not alphanumeric, since the standard specifyes that only the base-char digits can be used as digit
2015-12-07T22:58:25Z pjb: IIRC).  Of course, some unicode "character", ie. code-points, could be also invalid (eg. unmapped code-points, or code-points with special meanings).
2015-12-07T22:59:02Z pjb: package markers, exponent markers, etc probably won't be constituent trait of any other characters than the specified standard characters.
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2015-12-07T22:59:41Z dreamaddict: included an overarching strategy, even
2015-12-07T23:00:26Z didi: pjb: Thank you.
2015-12-07T23:00:49Z pjb: didi: the constitent trait is essentially what is modified by escapes:  abc\:def:ghi\:jkl
2015-12-07T23:01:07Z pjb: only the : in the middle has the package marker constituent trait, since it's not escaped.
2015-12-07T23:01:41Z pjb: +123e42 -> float  +123\e42 -> symbol (since e here has not the exponent marker constituent trait).
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2015-12-07T23:06:17Z dreamaddict: is there a way to use let, or something analogous, that preserves a value across recursions?  or is that essentially what global variables are for?
2015-12-07T23:06:39Z dreamaddict: I guess I still have a C attitude that global variables are a sin, when that’s not necessarily so in LISP
2015-12-07T23:07:46Z oGMo: dreamaddict: they still sortof are, but _special_ (dynamic) variables are not
2015-12-07T23:08:14Z newdan: dreamaddict: Not a CL expert by any stretch but global state is bad in every other language, I would be very skeptical of it being considered good in CL...
2015-12-07T23:08:21Z dreamaddict: well me too
2015-12-07T23:08:33Z dreamaddict: ideally I would like my anagram function to return a list of anagrams
2015-12-07T23:08:42Z dreamaddict: that’s more functional, right
2015-12-07T23:08:48Z oGMo: that's no different in CL
2015-12-07T23:09:20Z oGMo: CL is not really different than most other languages, you just have a few extra things most don't (real macros and dynamic scope), and slightly different syntax
2015-12-07T23:09:23Z dreamaddict: but that involves one iteration of the function being the “master” that keeps track of the results of the other recursions
2015-12-07T23:09:28Z dreamaddict: and I don’t know how LISP can or does handle that
2015-12-07T23:09:32Z oGMo: no it doesn't
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2015-12-07T23:10:17Z dreamaddict: ok then I have no idea how to properly state in LISP, or apparently conceptualize, what it is supposed to do
2015-12-07T23:10:41Z phoe_krk: dreamaddict: don't keep state, use an accumulator as one of the function arguments
2015-12-07T23:10:55Z dreamaddict: fantastic!
2015-12-07T23:11:09Z phoe_krk: and when the recursion is done, simply return the accumulator
2015-12-07T23:11:10Z oGMo: well. actually in this case you might, since you probably want a separate function to make _one_ anagram, but
2015-12-07T23:11:20Z oGMo: recursion works too, but don't overabuse it
2015-12-07T23:11:32Z dreamaddict: well the thing is, there is a list of words
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2015-12-07T23:11:37Z phoe_krk: that should also keep your function TCO-optimizable if you do it well.
2015-12-07T23:11:54Z dreamaddict: the best way for the function to hit every possibility is for it to search the whole list
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2015-12-07T23:12:06Z dreamaddict: which involves searching the whole list of each word in the list
2015-12-07T23:12:07Z dreamaddict: etc.
2015-12-07T23:12:09Z oGMo: dreamaddict: then in _any_ language, you want one function to keep a list of lists, another to keep a list of anagrams, and one to make a single anagram
2015-12-07T23:12:49Z oGMo: you can do it differently, but if it's harder to read (or write), why
2015-12-07T23:14:12Z dreamaddict: somehow I think the accumulator is going to be the answer here
2015-12-07T23:14:38Z dreamaddict: the function that makes the anagram makes the lists as well
2015-12-07T23:14:46Z dreamaddict: each word it picks makes a new list of possible words to search
2015-12-07T23:15:26Z dreamaddict: really all I was wondering is, where do you put a “bin” for completed phrases
2015-12-07T23:15:33Z dreamaddict: and apparently that bin is called an accumulator
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2015-12-07T23:20:25Z newdan: dreamaddict: Accumulator isn't a CL specific term, it's just any data you can "add to." In C if you loop over an array of ints and add each element to an "int sum" variable, you can call the "sum" variable an accumulator
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2015-12-07T23:21:39Z newdan: If you're storing a bunch of strings it's easy to put them all in a list. The CL list is a linked list data structure, very easy to work with
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2015-12-07T23:23:08Z dreamaddict: of course
2015-12-07T23:23:46Z dreamaddict: but I was wondering, should that list be a global variable or is there a way for that list to be part of a recursive function, but only the “trunk” of it
2015-12-07T23:24:01Z dreamaddict: the base layer, whatever, I don’t have enough CS education to really use the right terminology here
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2015-12-07T23:27:10Z phoe_krk: dreamaddict: try writing something that works = does something that you want it to do, and later show us the code. we'll try to pinpoint the differences we're talking about here.
2015-12-07T23:27:23Z phoe_krk: it will be much easier to discuss a working example.
2015-12-07T23:27:25Z dreamaddict: I already have the code that does one step
2015-12-07T23:27:26Z dreamaddict: http://codetidy.com/7529/
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2015-12-07T23:27:39Z dreamaddict: the use-words function at the bottom returns a wordlist, stepped once
2015-12-07T23:27:56Z dreamaddict: I could fileshare my wordlist.txt file, if you want to try it out…it all works as it is right now
2015-12-07T23:28:22Z dreamaddict: the wordlist.txt file that came with this challenge is laughably misspelled but it’s what I am using
2015-12-07T23:28:29Z phoe_krk: pfff, that would take me a while. a while that I don't have today.
2015-12-07T23:28:38Z phoe_krk: I'm sorry but in my case it would need to wait until tomorrow.
2015-12-07T23:28:48Z phoe_krk: maybe someone else on the channel has a moment to spare to check the code.
2015-12-07T23:29:35Z dreamaddict: it’s OK, I have to go now anyway
2015-12-07T23:29:46Z dreamaddict: I’ll hack at this later
2015-12-07T23:29:54Z dreamaddict: but thank everyone in this channel for their help
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2015-12-07T23:30:14Z dreamaddict: this lisp channel is 10 times more active and helpful than the C++ channel seems to be
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2015-12-08T03:01:36Z beach: Hmm.  A lot of bad advice and incorrect information given here lately.
2015-12-08T03:04:16Z xospacebat: in python and some other languages there is a facility for importing a function/variable from another package, and establishing it in the current package under a different name: import package.name as othername
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2015-12-08T03:05:00Z beach: Great!
2015-12-08T03:05:18Z xospacebat: I haven't seen anything along those lines in CL, though I could write something to do it. If no such facility exists, do you think it is a broken idiom?
2015-12-08T03:05:26Z xospacebat: I don't like package nicknames much
2015-12-08T03:05:28Z phoe_krk: beach: in case I screwed up somewhere, please let me know
2015-12-08T03:05:46Z beach: phoe_krk: I didn't look into the details.  I'll let you know if I see anything.
2015-12-08T03:05:53Z phoe_krk: beach: thanks.
2015-12-08T03:06:04Z beach: xospacebat: For individual functions, you can use (SETF FDEFINITION)
2015-12-08T03:06:09Z beach: clhs fdefinition
2015-12-08T03:06:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm
2015-12-08T03:06:25Z phoe_krk: xospacebat: for whole packages, I wrote that tiny package called pseudonyms. I think it's usable enough right now.
2015-12-08T03:06:37Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/phoe-krk/pseudonyms
2015-12-08T03:07:25Z beach: xospacebat: Why do you see the need for something like that?
2015-12-08T03:07:46Z xospacebat: interesting approach phoe_krk
2015-12-08T03:09:06Z xospacebat: beach: could be brain damage from using other languages, but I like to have that kind of control over the namespace
2015-12-08T03:09:07Z phoe_krk: xospacebat: I simply avoided the whole mess with nicknames and the fact they're destructive towards the original packages.
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2015-12-08T03:09:44Z Bike: well, if you want to use two symbols from different packages with the same name
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2015-12-08T03:11:00Z beach: These days, I almost exclusively use package prefixes everywhere for packages other than the current one and for a few others like COMMON-LISP.
2015-12-08T03:11:47Z beach: But that was the kind of situation I wanted to check whether xospacebat was trying to improve.
2015-12-08T03:13:38Z xospacebat: I might not like the library author's naming scheme, some functions get a bit wordy especially when prefixed by a package name, that might in turn have.parts.itself
2015-12-08T03:13:59Z xospacebat: its a convenience thing, an itch with no corresponding welt
2015-12-08T03:14:09Z beach: Got it.
2015-12-08T03:16:40Z pillton: phoe_krk: How is pseudonyms going? Have you learnt anything new now that you have something working?
2015-12-08T03:17:29Z phoe_krk: pillton: I haven't touched it yet, been busy studying. but I'll definitely give it some more time now that I see people are beginning to use it.
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2015-12-08T03:21:11Z beach: Clearly, some naming conventions don't lend themselves to explicit package prefixes, such as the packages created by pjb.
2015-12-08T03:22:16Z beach: That kind of naming convention requires package aliases, which are not standardized.
2015-12-08T03:22:17Z |3b|: xospacebat: importing symbols under other names is a bit messier in CL since the symbols are actual runtime objects, so it might be confusing if for example (symbol-name 'foo) is "BAR"
2015-12-08T03:23:24Z beach: |3b|: That can't happen though, can it?  It's a bit early for me to think straight, but I can't see how that could happen.
2015-12-08T03:23:26Z xospacebat: yeah, it would be the function or variable cell of the symbol that I'd want copied over to a local symbol
2015-12-08T03:23:34Z |3b|: which might matter for example in the LOOP macro which compares symbols by name rather than identity
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2015-12-08T03:23:53Z |3b|: beach: it can't happen in CL
2015-12-08T03:23:58Z beach: Whew!
2015-12-08T03:24:13Z |3b| was talking about a hypothetical case where someone added the python feature to CL
2015-12-08T03:24:19Z beach: xospacebat: For individual global functions, you can use (SETF FDEFINITION) as I said.
2015-12-08T03:24:26Z xospacebat: will (setf fdefinition) at compile+load+execute time work for macros?
2015-12-08T03:24:26Z pillton: |3b|: You could have (symbol-name 'bar) => "FOO".
2015-12-08T03:24:47Z pillton: |3b|: I'd laugh out loud though.
2015-12-08T03:25:05Z |3b|: pillton: in compliant code?
2015-12-08T03:25:27Z phoe_krk: a Python feature to CL?
2015-12-08T03:25:31Z phoe_krk: like what, garbage collection?
2015-12-08T03:25:48Z xospacebat: import ... as ...
2015-12-08T03:25:55Z |3b|: phoe_krk: the specific one being discussed, importing names as other names
2015-12-08T03:26:17Z phoe_krk: that would need a bigger macro.
2015-12-08T03:26:27Z beach: xospacebat: For macros you would have to use (SETF MACRO-FUNCTION).
2015-12-08T03:26:32Z phoe_krk: but is possible.
2015-12-08T03:26:34Z pillton: |3b|: It wouldn't be compliant as changes to INTERN would have to be made.
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2015-12-08T03:27:13Z |3b|: pillton: actually, i guess changing the reader macro on #\' is compliant (if a bad idea), so it could in compliant code
2015-12-08T03:27:14Z beach: clhs macro-function
2015-12-08T03:27:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm
2015-12-08T03:27:31Z |3b|: or #\(
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2015-12-08T03:30:19Z phoe_krk: okay guys
2015-12-08T03:30:21Z phoe_krk: good night
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2015-12-08T03:30:38Z pillton: Night.
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2015-12-08T05:17:46Z Tiferet: Hello
2015-12-08T05:18:25Z Tiferet: Did anyone here start their lisp journey with david touretzky's common lisp book?
2015-12-08T05:18:51Z beach: Probably a few did.
2015-12-08T05:19:41Z beach: It is usually recommended for those with little or no prior programming experience.
2015-12-08T05:19:54Z Tiferet: I have zero...
2015-12-08T05:20:16Z Tiferet: well, outside of the 120 pages I've read and the exercises I've worked through (in gentle common lisp)
2015-12-08T05:20:18Z beach: Then that book is what many people here would recommend.
2015-12-08T05:21:57Z Tiferet: So truly, without any prior knowledge this book should be readily assimilable?
2015-12-08T05:22:13Z spacebat`: you might also have fun with Conrad's Land of Lisp
2015-12-08T05:22:35Z Tiferet: spacebat`: I did look into that book. I found the tone off-putting...
2015-12-08T05:22:55Z Tiferet: spacebat`: maybe I am being superficial
2015-12-08T05:23:28Z beach: Tiferet: I personally don't know.  I am just telling you what people here usually recommend.
2015-12-08T05:23:45Z Tiferet: beach: understood. thank you.
2015-12-08T05:24:25Z Tiferet: Maybe I should look into land of lisp... lol
2015-12-08T05:24:42Z Tiferet: boredom is an issue
2015-12-08T05:24:52Z beach: I looked at that one briefly, and I also found it unappealing.
2015-12-08T05:25:08Z beach: But I am not the right person to judge that kind of stuff.
2015-12-08T05:25:13Z Tiferet: beach: right?
2015-12-08T05:25:22Z Tiferet: beach: *nods*
2015-12-08T05:26:52Z beach: I also understand that it uses some non-idiomatic constructs, and even some that won't work in all implementations.
2015-12-08T05:27:03Z beach: I can't remember what they were now. :(
2015-12-08T05:27:14Z beach: Oh, backquote stuff.
2015-12-08T05:27:28Z beach: Is assumed to be implemented as lists, but that is not the case in (say) SBCL.
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2015-12-08T05:29:06Z Tiferet: beach: way over my head. all I know at this point is that backquoted symbols create lists
2015-12-08T05:29:21Z beach: Sort of.
2015-12-08T05:31:53Z beach: Tiferet: You should be fine with "Gentle" plus the Common Lisp HyperSpec.  And you can always ask here if you are stuck.
2015-12-08T05:32:10Z beach: Tiferet: I recommend you install SLIME using Quicklisp.
2015-12-08T05:33:03Z beach: ... unless you are using something like LispWorks.
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2015-12-08T05:34:06Z beach: Using the OS package manager seems to sometimes create problems due to incompatible versions between the Common Lisp implementation and SLIME.
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2015-12-08T05:35:36Z Tiferet: beach: thank you. I've got a full slime environment set up
2015-12-08T05:35:54Z Tiferet: beach: currently trying this constrain function exercise >_<
2015-12-08T05:36:32Z blub: where are you stuck
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2015-12-08T05:37:00Z beach: blub: Tiferet didn't mention being stuck. :)
2015-12-08T05:37:10Z Tiferet: beach: :D
2015-12-08T05:37:21Z Tiferet: blub: thank you blub. it means a lot to me to solve this on my own
2015-12-08T05:38:12Z blub: oh, sorry
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2015-12-08T05:38:23Z Tiferet: blub: thank you though!
2015-12-08T05:38:34Z beach: Tiferet: I recommend you submit your code for review using paste.lisp.org once you have something working.
2015-12-08T05:38:56Z Tiferet: beach: thank you! if you wouldn't mind :D
2015-12-08T05:38:57Z beach: Tiferet: It will avoid your developing non-idiomatic habits early.
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2015-12-08T05:40:37Z beach: Tiferet: Caution, though.  I have seen a lot of bad advice and wrong information given here lately.  You should take advice from several different people before believing it. :)
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2015-12-08T05:44:27Z Tiferet: beach: appreciated!
2015-12-08T05:44:43Z Tiferet: beach: so... this is what I came up with http://paste.lisp.org/display/166009
2015-12-08T05:44:51Z Tiferet: beach: and it's wrong
2015-12-08T05:45:19Z Tiferet: beach: but - hilariously - I checked the answer key in the back of the book and DT gives the exact same answer
2015-12-08T05:46:06Z beach: Tiferet: You need to start by indenting your code as SLIME/Emacs suggest.
2015-12-08T05:46:55Z beach: Other than that, I don't see what is wrong with it.
2015-12-08T05:47:19Z Tiferet: beach: ah, i think I know why it looks like that. I absent-mindedly added cond to each line at first then wracked my brains and removed them
2015-12-08T05:47:32Z Tiferet: beach: C-d C-d C-d lol
2015-12-08T05:47:43Z Tiferet: beach: the result returned is wrong
2015-12-08T05:48:00Z beach: In what way?
2015-12-08T05:48:14Z beach: What did you give it, what did it return, and what did you expect it to return?
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2015-12-08T05:48:52Z Tiferet: beach: http://i.imgur.com/G22lFNO.png
2015-12-08T05:49:12Z Tiferet: beach: I expected "50" for example, and got "-50"
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2015-12-08T05:50:14Z beach: Tiferet: The -50 is max and the 50 is min.
2015-12-08T05:50:18Z blub: (defun constrain (x max min)
2015-12-08T05:50:24Z beach: No wonder the result is strange.
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2015-12-08T05:51:18Z beach: Tiferet: You might want to swap the two parameters min and max.  The current order is, er, unusual.
2015-12-08T05:51:40Z Tiferet: beach: i guess the book is wrong then
2015-12-08T05:52:04Z beach: Entirely possible.
2015-12-08T05:54:45Z Tiferet: beach: http://i.imgur.com/vfAChfl.jpg
2015-12-08T05:55:01Z Tiferet: beach: exercise 4.10
2015-12-08T05:55:42Z beach: Technically, it doesn't say that max should come before min in the lambda list.
2015-12-08T05:56:08Z beach: So the correct answer must be (defun constrain (x min max) ...)
2015-12-08T05:56:48Z beach: Is there a suggested solution with MAX before MIN in the lambda list?
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2015-12-08T05:56:54Z Tiferet: beach: his answer key reads (x max min)
2015-12-08T05:57:00Z Tiferet: beach: yes
2015-12-08T05:57:12Z beach: That seems wrong, yes.
2015-12-08T05:57:40Z Tiferet: beach: oh well. at least it wasn't me.
2015-12-08T05:57:55Z Tiferet: beach: thank you
2015-12-08T05:58:00Z beach: Anytime.
2015-12-08T05:59:32Z Tiferet: well, I better get to sleep. goodnight everyone and thanks again.
2015-12-08T05:59:37Z blub: good night
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2015-12-08T06:02:36Z drmeister: Hey everybody.  I've got a question about programming in Common Lisp with Slime while creating an ASDF system.  I've got several files, and several packages.  Do you keep a frame open on your packages.lisp file and keep adding symbols to the package export list?  How do you ensure that old symbols are removed from the package export list?
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2015-12-08T06:26:44Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-12-08T06:26:58Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-12-08T06:27:12Z spacebat`: drmeister: that's not a problem I've had, but I imagine my first impulse would be to read the defpackage form and slurp the exports, then step through the external symbols in the package unexporting those not in the list
2015-12-08T06:27:45Z spacebat`: but I also just stumbled across this today which might do something like this https://github.com/rpav/defpackage-plus
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2015-12-08T06:30:14Z beach: drmeister: I personally don't use multiple frames, but I do keep a buffer with the package definition(s) in it.  Sometimes I will just C-c C-c after adding an exported symbol.  Sometimes I switch to the SLIME interaction window and LOAD-OP the system again.
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2015-12-08T06:31:14Z beach: drmeister: I split my Emacs frame using C-x 3 so that I have two windows next to each other.  Once window contains the SLIME interaction and the other window contains code.
2015-12-08T06:32:27Z drmeister: spacebat`: Thanks.
2015-12-08T06:32:27Z minion: drmeister, memo from jackdaniel: I was checking something in ECL and found something related to our prior discussion. In internal.h ECL has defined some _ecl_funcallX functions, which call function w/o vaargs up to four arguments
2015-12-08T06:33:37Z drmeister: beach: You have source code in so many files and so many different packages.  You work with one file at a time?
2015-12-08T06:33:37Z jackdaniel: oh, that was fast
2015-12-08T06:33:42Z jackdaniel: hello o/
2015-12-08T06:33:47Z drmeister: Hey jackdaniel
2015-12-08T06:33:50Z beach: drmeister: I didn't say that.
2015-12-08T06:33:52Z drmeister: Thanks.
2015-12-08T06:33:55Z beach: I just don't use multiple frames.
2015-12-08T06:34:17Z beach: I switch between the buffers using C-x b.
2015-12-08T06:34:29Z drmeister: I see
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2015-12-08T06:35:57Z pjb: drmeister: I have an emacs command that will add the symbol at point or the symbols defined by the following form to the export list of the current package, bound to H-e.
2015-12-08T06:36:06Z pjb: drmeister: for removal, it has to be done by hand.
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2015-12-08T06:41:02Z dongcarl: Hi guys, does anyone know how to use '(' as a symbol in lisp?
2015-12-08T06:41:12Z beach: |(|
2015-12-08T06:41:13Z drmeister: pjb: That sounds appealing.
2015-12-08T06:42:07Z dongcarl: beach: so '(|(| . |)|) is a pair with '(' as a symbol as the car and ')' as a symbol as the cdr?
2015-12-08T06:42:33Z beach: dongcarl: Indeed.
2015-12-08T06:43:00Z dongcarl: beach: does it work the same way for '{' and '['? would I even need the || in those cases?
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2015-12-08T06:43:10Z beach: No you don't.
2015-12-08T06:43:21Z beach: Those are already constituent characters.
2015-12-08T06:43:30Z dongcarl: beach: thanks
2015-12-08T06:43:40Z beach: Anytime.
2015-12-08T06:45:35Z dongcarl: beach: http://ideone.com/uCQfwk what am I doing wrong here?
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2015-12-08T06:46:49Z jackdaniel: dongcarl: you use symbol |(|, but it has no value (as the first argument of assoc)
2015-12-08T06:47:11Z beach: dongcarl: Did you mean to quote it?
2015-12-08T06:47:13Z jackdaniel: dongcarl: you may want to quote it, like (assoc '|(| …)
2015-12-08T06:48:00Z jackdaniel: http://www.nethack.org/v360/release.html , time to celebrate :)
2015-12-08T06:48:20Z beach: dongcarl: Also, for questions like that, you are better off not addressing anyone in particular.  That way you will have the attention of more than one person (hopefully).
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2015-12-08T06:49:30Z beach: dongcarl: Why are you using symbols here?
2015-12-08T06:49:38Z beach: ... as opposed to characters?
2015-12-08T06:50:34Z dongcarl: beach: thanks! Umm... I'm porting parinfer from clojure w/ node server to emacs-lisp...
2015-12-08T06:51:15Z beach: Oh, Emacs Lisp.
2015-12-08T06:51:31Z beach: You might not get good advice here then.  This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2015-12-08T06:51:35Z dongcarl: beach: it has a map which has delimiters and their matching delimitors as keys and values respectively
2015-12-08T06:51:47Z dongcarl: beach: but there isn't a channel for emacs lisp :-(
2015-12-08T06:51:55Z beach: That doesn't justify symbols as opposed to characters.
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2015-12-08T06:52:03Z beach: dongcarl: Sorry to hear that.
2015-12-08T06:52:07Z dongcarl: beach: how would I use characters?
2015-12-08T06:52:20Z dongcarl: beach: very new to this :/
2015-12-08T06:52:34Z beach: In Common Lisp: #\(, etc.
2015-12-08T06:52:42Z beach: But I don't know about Emacs Lisp.
2015-12-08T06:53:06Z dongcarl: beach: it mostly works the same way I'll check! thanks!
2015-12-08T06:53:19Z dongcarl: beach: assoc would work the same way for characters?
2015-12-08T06:53:21Z xantoz: Emacs Lisp uses fixnums iirc
2015-12-08T06:53:54Z dongcarl: xantoz: which means?
2015-12-08T06:54:06Z beach: dongcarl: Again, I don't know about Emacs Lisp.  In Common Lisp, ASSOC uses EQL for comparison by default, so that will work for characters and symbols.
2015-12-08T06:54:12Z xantoz: at least when you aref on a string in emacs what you get back is just a number
2015-12-08T06:54:21Z jackdaniel: in emacs lisp you use characters like ?(
2015-12-08T06:54:25Z xantoz: 8-bit code
2015-12-08T06:55:33Z dongcarl: jackdaniel: yeah I just stumbled upon the page :/
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2015-12-08T07:03:12Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Thanks for that insight on ECL funcall.
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2015-12-08T07:15:36Z jackdaniel: drmeister: sure thing :)
2015-12-08T07:20:36Z dongcarl: Is it possible to pass a list to let statements? Or is that not possible because it's a special form?
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2015-12-08T07:32:48Z ggole: dongcarl: why do you want to do that?
2015-12-08T07:33:59Z ggole: It's possible that progv is what you are after, but using progv is usually a sign you are doing something fairly strange
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2015-12-08T07:40:51Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-12-08T07:44:11Z jackdaniel: dongcarl: you may create your own macro which expands to let
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2015-12-08T07:45:36Z jackdaniel: (defmacro xxx-let (bindings &body body) `(let ,bindings ,@body) ; should expand to the ordinary let
2015-12-08T07:45:55Z jackdaniel: it might be a good starting point for whatever you like to butcher this let ;)
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2015-12-08T07:55:38Z Bike: dongcarl: let is lexical. it doesn't make sense to let the variable names be runtime-variable.
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2015-12-08T12:53:33Z xantoz: what's a safe way to convert a string to a number, now again?
2015-12-08T12:54:16Z jackdaniel: clhs parse-number
2015-12-08T12:54:16Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for parse-number.
2015-12-08T12:54:22Z jackdaniel: clhs parse-integer
2015-12-08T12:54:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm
2015-12-08T12:55:53Z jackdaniel: xantoz: you may also (read-from-string "number") and check its typep it
2015-12-08T12:56:07Z xantoz: right, so read-from-string is safe too, for general data structures
2015-12-08T12:56:25Z xantoz: was just about to ask
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2015-12-08T12:56:58Z blub: you should bind *read-eval* to nil first
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2015-12-08T12:59:30Z jackdaniel: summing up, it would be something like (defun parse-number (string) (let* ((*read-eval* nil) (x (read-from-string string))) (check-type x number) x)
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2015-12-08T13:00:05Z h0wl3vvd: hello, common lisp is usually interpreted or compiled
2015-12-08T13:00:05Z h0wl3vvd: /
2015-12-08T13:00:08Z h0wl3vvd: ?*
2015-12-08T13:00:43Z dim: depends on the implementation, can be both
2015-12-08T13:01:02Z h0wl3vvd: but compiled to byte and machine code
2015-12-08T13:01:04Z h0wl3vvd: or only byte /
2015-12-08T13:01:06Z h0wl3vvd: ?*
2015-12-08T13:01:12Z dim: given my impression on the often used implementations, I would say typically compiled nowadays
2015-12-08T13:01:28Z jackdaniel: mostly compiled to the machine code
2015-12-08T13:01:36Z dim: SBCL typically compiles, CCL I think will either interpret or compile, and clisp compiles to byte code
2015-12-08T13:01:42Z p_l: I think the only bytecoded implementation is CLISP and (obviously) the Java-based ABCL
2015-12-08T13:01:49Z dim: ECL and clasp will compile too, right jackdaniel?
2015-12-08T13:01:54Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-08T13:01:58Z p_l: ECL has bytecode and C-based compilation
2015-12-08T13:02:03Z p_l: (depends on what you need)
2015-12-08T13:02:04Z jackdaniel: by default it translates to C and compiles with GCC
2015-12-08T13:02:08Z jackdaniel: but byte compiler is available
2015-12-08T13:02:13Z dim: p_l: ABCL compiles to bytecode but then the JVM does JIT compiling to machine code, I believe
2015-12-08T13:02:17Z jackdaniel: for targets without C/C++ compiler
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2015-12-08T13:02:29Z h0wl3vvd: i have question about diffrence between common and scheme in this topic, common is more often used compiled when scheme is more used as a interpreting script
2015-12-08T13:02:33Z h0wl3vvd: or what is the situation
2015-12-08T13:02:37Z h0wl3vvd: between these two ?
2015-12-08T13:02:52Z p_l: Allegro, LW, SBCL, CCL, CMUCL all compile to native code for the platform though some have evaluators as well (interpreters)
2015-12-08T13:02:58Z jackdaniel: common lisp has much begger standard then scheme
2015-12-08T13:03:03Z jackdaniel: that's the main difference
2015-12-08T13:03:04Z p_l: h0wl3vvd: different languages - a lot of compiled schemes out there
2015-12-08T13:03:16Z jackdaniel: putting aside the dispute what is better – too big or too small standard
2015-12-08T13:03:18Z p_l: h0wl3vvd: also, since Scheme used to be smaller, it was used as scripting language in various projects
2015-12-08T13:05:07Z h0wl3vvd: i have heard that comparsion of scheme and common like c and c++
2015-12-08T13:05:39Z jackdaniel: in some sense it's pretty accurate
2015-12-08T13:05:48Z h0wl3vvd: in what sense exacly
2015-12-08T13:06:00Z p_l: in sense of size of the language
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2015-12-08T13:06:22Z p_l: C is very very small, especially when you discard the "standard library" (often a quite good option to do)
2015-12-08T13:06:40Z h0wl3vvd: discard
2015-12-08T13:06:41Z h0wl3vvd: ?
2015-12-08T13:06:43Z h0wl3vvd: what u mean by that ?
2015-12-08T13:06:51Z spacebat: ignore?
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2015-12-08T13:07:11Z h0wl3vvd: ignore standard library ? why ?
2015-12-08T13:07:52Z jackdaniel: h0wl3vvd: programming languages are ususally built from two things: rules how the language looks, behaves etc, and the standard library which provides you some primitives (like accessing files etc.)
2015-12-08T13:08:10Z jackdaniel: what p_l means is that C rules are very simple
2015-12-08T13:08:29Z dim: in that sense scheme now is R7RS and my understanding is that R7RS is "bigger" than the CL standard
2015-12-08T13:08:52Z h0wl3vvd: <jackdaniel> what p_l means is that C rules are very simple
2015-12-08T13:08:54Z h0wl3vvd: what rules ?
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2015-12-08T13:09:04Z jackdaniel: have you programmed in C?
2015-12-08T13:09:30Z dim: I would argue that C rules are quite complex (memory barriers and things) for lack of standardisation, in order for portability (weak argument if you ask me)
2015-12-08T13:09:43Z h0wl3vvd: jackdaniel: yes
2015-12-08T13:09:50Z h0wl3vvd: but what u mean by "rules"
2015-12-08T13:09:53Z h0wl3vvd: give me a example
2015-12-08T13:10:12Z jackdaniel: I mean syntax. Example: each variable has to have declared type
2015-12-08T13:10:16Z dim: think syntax and parser, and then semantics
2015-12-08T13:10:19Z h0wl3vvd: yeah
2015-12-08T13:10:26Z jackdaniel: function arguments are separated by "," and enclosed in "()"
2015-12-08T13:10:27Z h0wl3vvd: i see syntax and parser and semantics
2015-12-08T13:10:27Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-08T13:10:37Z h0wl3vvd: its compiler
2015-12-08T13:10:38Z p_l: also, whether the "standard library" is truly needed or not
2015-12-08T13:10:40Z h0wl3vvd: contain, yes ?
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2015-12-08T13:11:27Z jackdaniel: yes, compiler has to implement these
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2015-12-08T13:11:53Z jackdaniel: while standard library  might be sometimes third party
2015-12-08T13:12:04Z h0wl3vvd: ok thanks
2015-12-08T13:12:32Z h0wl3vvd: and what u mean by "behaves"
2015-12-08T13:12:33Z jackdaniel: either way common lisp (as both semantics and the standard library) is bigger than scheme
2015-12-08T13:12:33Z h0wl3vvd: example ?
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2015-12-08T13:12:46Z jackdaniel: hrm, evaluation rule for instance
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2015-12-08T13:13:03Z jackdaniel: in CL you have guaranteed, that all arguments of the function are evaluated from left to right
2015-12-08T13:13:06Z h0wl3vvd: hmm, what ?
2015-12-08T13:13:09Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-08T13:13:22Z jackdaniel: while in scheme there is no such rule, they may be evaluated in any order
2015-12-08T13:13:45Z jackdaniel: (at least I believe it's true for scheme, not 100% sure if I remember correctly)
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2015-12-08T13:13:57Z h0wl3vvd: any another behave example ?
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2015-12-08T13:14:03Z h0wl3vvd: ls
2015-12-08T13:14:23Z jackdaniel: namespaces – in common lisp you may have variable and function both sharing the same name without the conflict
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2015-12-08T13:14:37Z jackdaniel: because it's position what denotes if it's variable or a function
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2015-12-08T13:14:43Z jackdaniel: in scheme there is only one namespace
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2015-12-08T13:15:02Z jackdaniel: what is somewhat more elegant, but often more cumbersome
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2015-12-08T13:15:36Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-08T13:15:45Z h0wl3vvd: can u explain me that evaluate of arguments ?
2015-12-08T13:15:54Z h0wl3vvd: i dont really understood that
2015-12-08T13:16:01Z jackdaniel: let's use C example
2015-12-08T13:16:19Z jackdaniel: you have a function, which prototype is: "int xxx(int a, int b);"
2015-12-08T13:16:45Z jackdaniel: you may call it "xxx(1+3, 22);" and a will have value 4, and b will be 22
2015-12-08T13:17:05Z h0wl3vvd: yeah
2015-12-08T13:17:07Z jackdaniel: but 1+4 is something, what needs to be computed (evaluated)
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2015-12-08T13:17:52Z jackdaniel: so if you have "xxx(1+3, 20+2);" (putting aside the fact, that compiler will do it at compile time, let's ignore that), then if evaluation is from left to right
2015-12-08T13:18:00Z jackdaniel: then you first add 1+3, then 20+2
2015-12-08T13:18:15Z jackdaniel: but if you have no guarantee regarding this, then the order is implementation dependant
2015-12-08T13:18:50Z jackdaniel: imagine now, that you call "xxx(i++, i++);" <- this will yield a different result for different evaluation orders
2015-12-08T13:19:56Z h0wl3vvd: yeah
2015-12-08T13:20:04Z h0wl3vvd: but when im passing arguments without any computation
2015-12-08T13:20:26Z h0wl3vvd: xxx(foo, bar); or xxx(4,22)
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2015-12-08T13:20:30Z h0wl3vvd: ?
2015-12-08T13:20:34Z jackdaniel: if they have no side effects, then there is no difference
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2015-12-08T13:20:54Z jackdaniel: that's what scheme emphasizes
2015-12-08T13:21:19Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-08T13:21:32Z h0wl3vvd: okay but that evaluation process can be diffrtent for implementations
2015-12-08T13:21:44Z jackdaniel: scheme encourages more functional style of writing programs by not specifying the order of evaluation
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2015-12-08T13:22:00Z jackdaniel: CL on the other hand has clearly specified, that these are evaluated from left to right
2015-12-08T13:23:22Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-08T13:23:22Z h0wl3vvd: kk
2015-12-08T13:23:25Z jackdaniel: so every implementations which pretends to the Common Lisp name needs to fulfill this promise (that it goes from left to right)
2015-12-08T13:23:56Z h0wl3vvd: kk i see
2015-12-08T13:23:58Z h0wl3vvd: thanks
2015-12-08T13:24:16Z Zhivago: Which avoids a lot of subtle bugs which you can commonly see in C programs.
2015-12-08T13:24:34Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-12-08T13:24:55Z jackdaniel: encouraging (making easier) writing in less functional style
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2015-12-08T13:25:10Z jackdaniel: I hope I have helped (not confused you). I've got to go, have fun o/
2015-12-08T13:26:54Z h0wl3vvd: jackdaniel: yeah u haved helped alot
2015-12-08T13:26:56Z h0wl3vvd: thanks man
2015-12-08T13:26:57Z h0wl3vvd: :)
2015-12-08T13:27:24Z h0wl3vvd: btw
2015-12-08T13:27:32Z h0wl3vvd: C dont specify order of evaluation too ?
2015-12-08T13:28:06Z jackdaniel: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/376278/parameter-evaluation-order-before-a-function-calling-in-c
2015-12-08T13:28:22Z jackdaniel: use the force (duckduckgo/google) Luke!
2015-12-08T13:29:12Z h0wl3vvd: i dont get
2015-12-08T13:29:13Z h0wl3vvd: this link
2015-12-08T13:29:14Z lieven: h0wl3vvd: C has a fairly intricate concept of sequence points for that
2015-12-08T13:29:27Z h0wl3vvd: ahh wait
2015-12-08T13:29:28Z h0wl3vvd: i see
2015-12-08T13:29:28Z h0wl3vvd: thanks
2015-12-08T13:30:01Z h0wl3vvd: what about c++, its solves it diffrently ?
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2015-12-08T13:35:35Z ggole: But multiple modifications (to the same storage) between sequence points is undefined behaviour
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2015-12-08T13:40:46Z Zhivago: C has no sequence points between parameter evaluation, so yes -- there is no order there (which is slightly different to the order being undefined).
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2015-12-08T13:52:44Z lieven: as an aside, it's strongly recommended that your own macros in CL follow the same rule of left to right evaluation
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2015-12-08T14:58:09Z kami`: Hello #lisp
2015-12-08T14:58:14Z wathek: Hi everybody
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2015-12-08T14:58:49Z wathek: I'm experiencing a problem with act-r and I don't know if it's the right place to ask the question or not
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2015-12-08T15:02:47Z kami: wathek: never heard of it, but as it seems to be CL software, someone here might know it
2015-12-08T15:03:19Z wathek: kami: thank you anyway
2015-12-08T15:06:00Z kami: wathek: so, what is the problem you're experiencing?
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2015-12-08T15:07:33Z wathek: kami: I'm looking for a way to create a chunk type that represents a list
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2015-12-08T15:15:45Z kami: wathek: looking at the doc of chunk-slot-value on page 73 of the 516 page reference manual, it seems like the value of a chunk slot can be any lisp value
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2015-12-08T15:23:07Z wathek: kami: let me check that thank you ;)
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2015-12-08T15:44:02Z francogrex: hi I had asked that question before and got a good response from pjb. But I think I wasn't clear enough on what I really desired to have. I am looking for hint on developing a special type of containers where such a thing (or similar) would be possible: http://paste.lisp.org/display/166052
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2015-12-08T15:49:07Z blub: so you already implemented what you want and now you want an uglier interface for it ?
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2015-12-08T15:59:03Z francogrex: blub? I have implemented nothing yet, it's an idea
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2015-12-08T16:01:30Z jdz: francogrex: something like (defun get? (container &rest path) (reduce #'elt container path))
2015-12-08T16:01:32Z jdz: ?
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2015-12-08T16:05:35Z jdz: a working version: (defun get? (container &rest path) (reduce #'elt path :initial-value container))
2015-12-08T16:06:08Z francogrex: jdz ok; and what would the container be?
2015-12-08T16:06:22Z jdz: (get? *mother-list* 2 1)
2015-12-08T16:07:29Z francogrex: yes ok but the idea is to use the keywords. The user doesn't need to know that it is position 2 subposition 1
2015-12-08T16:08:26Z francogrex: it maybe called bigass and subass-blue so (get? *mother* :bigass :subass-blue) should work
2015-12-08T16:08:27Z jdz: then replace ELT with GETF
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2015-12-08T16:10:30Z francogrex: jdz yes that's it
2015-12-08T16:10:56Z ukari: francogrex, i recommand you read parctical common lisp, page 29. it looks like what you need
2015-12-08T16:10:56Z minion: ukari, memo from pjb: when the implementation lets you do it, it's thru FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION; for example, in clisp: (function-lambda-expression (function f)) --> (LAMBDA (X Y) (DECLARE (SYSTEM::IN-DEFUN F)) (BLOCK F (- X Y))) ; #(NIL NIL NIL NIL ((DECLARATION OPTIMIZE DECLARATION))) ; F.  Otherwise have a look at ibcl: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2015-12-08T16:11:17Z francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/display/166052#1 according to jdz
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2015-12-08T17:39:29Z jasom: (reduce #'getf '(:element2 :sub-element1) :initial-value '(:element0 (1 2 3) :element1 (4 5 6) :element2 (:sub-element0 (78 7) :sub-element1 (15 85)) :element3 (4 5)))
2015-12-08T17:40:06Z jasom: so (defun get? (container &rest path) (reduce #'getf path :initial-value container))
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2015-12-08T17:40:54Z jasom: oh, jdz already said that I see
2015-12-08T17:42:24Z shka: hi
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2015-12-08T17:49:53Z kami: Hi shka
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2015-12-08T17:54:44Z shka: kami: hello there :-)
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2015-12-08T17:57:12Z jasom: minion: memo for beach: thanks for pointing me at Arne Andersson's writings; I implemented his General Balanced Tree for fun and it was quite elegant
2015-12-08T17:57:12Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-12-08T18:50:16Z pjb: minion: memo for francogrex: there's no equivalent of displaced array for lists, but you can build a meta-list instead. (defun meta-list (list) (loop :for meta :on list :collect meta))  So instead of accessing the element thru (car cell), you would do (caar meta-cell)  You can build sub-meta-lists, reversed-meta-lists, every-other-element-meta-lists, whatever you want.
2015-12-08T18:50:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell francogrex when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-12-08T18:53:38Z pjb: minion: memo for francogrex: (defun meta-list (list &key (start 0) (end nil)) (loop :for i :from 0 :for meta :on list :when (and (<= start i) (or (null end) (< i end))) :collect meta)) #| --> meta-list |#  (let* ((l (list 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)) (m (meta-list l :start 2 :end 4))) (loop :for c :in m :do (incf (#|meta|#car c) 100)) (values (mapcar 'car m) l)) #| --> (103 104) ; (1 2 103 104 5 6 7) |#
2015-12-08T18:53:38Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell francogrex when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-12-08T20:10:19Z shka: guys
2015-12-08T20:10:23Z shka: i just need to know
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2015-12-08T20:10:52Z shka: (defgeneric foo (instance context)) <- isn't that pathological by any chance?
2015-12-08T20:11:07Z DeadTrickster: foo?
2015-12-08T20:11:16Z shka: placeholder name
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2015-12-08T20:11:33Z shka: basicly, i'm not sure if this does not lead me to hell
2015-12-08T20:12:00Z shka: because context has a tendency to become everything
2015-12-08T20:12:16Z DeadTrickster: where is the problem I don't understand
2015-12-08T20:12:33Z DeadTrickster: are you know sure about creating generic function with two arguments?
2015-12-08T20:12:37Z dlowe: it's defined in a package, right?
2015-12-08T20:12:42Z shka: i'm getting stuff like (complex-context (logging-context error-handling ...) ())
2015-12-08T20:13:20Z shka: DeadTrickster: i'm not sure about overusing multiple dispatch
2015-12-08T20:13:29Z shka: in the manner like this
2015-12-08T20:13:37Z DeadTrickster: ah you want to specialize on context too?
2015-12-08T20:13:44Z shka: yes
2015-12-08T20:13:54Z shka: but i'm not sure where this can lead me
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2015-12-08T20:14:21Z DeadTrickster: sorry that wasn't obvious from the start :-)
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2015-12-08T20:15:05Z shka: i mean: it looks like a nice and simple idea to have strong way to basicly extend everything
2015-12-08T20:15:27Z DeadTrickster: give defmethod example
2015-12-08T20:16:21Z shka: (defmethod write-node ((node file-node) (context log-context)))
2015-12-08T20:16:42Z shka: something like that for instance
2015-12-08T20:17:08Z shka: issue is that context has a tendency to become rather bloated object
2015-12-08T20:17:25Z shka: and i'm not sure if this will become a problem or not
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2015-12-08T20:18:50Z DeadTrickster: sounds context-oriented
2015-12-08T20:19:30Z DeadTrickster: there was lib for that
2015-12-08T20:19:39Z DeadTrickster: contexl
2015-12-08T20:19:39Z shka: well, i just wanted to know if this is not well recognized antipattern in the cl world
2015-12-08T20:19:50Z DeadTrickster: forget about it
2015-12-08T20:19:55Z DeadTrickster: if it works it works
2015-12-08T20:20:18Z shka: DeadTrickster: it is almost too good to be true
2015-12-08T20:20:21Z shka: seriously
2015-12-08T20:20:39Z shka: it solves around 75% of my design problems
2015-12-08T20:20:44Z DeadTrickster: ha
2015-12-08T20:20:48Z shka: and i am suspecious
2015-12-08T20:20:55Z dlowe: I would wait to use it to see if it *actually* solves it
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2015-12-08T20:21:20Z DeadTrickster: well if you want to calculate sin and there is sin function what you will do?
2015-12-08T20:21:54Z shka: dlowe: i have the very same feeling
2015-12-08T20:22:18Z shka: it just can't be so easy as it looks like
2015-12-08T20:24:58Z shka: i need to think about it
2015-12-08T20:25:37Z shka: probabbly before and after methods will be fine
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2015-12-08T21:41:06Z attila_lendvai: so, what's the state of the art in RPC if I want to be interoperable with ios, android, etc? I'm looking at google's protobuf and gRPC, but I'm not sure the lisp side is mature enough
2015-12-08T21:43:19Z dlowe: I'm pretty sure Google is using it internally.
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2015-12-08T21:43:47Z p_l: I'm not sure we have crucial component of gRPC2, which is HTTP2
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2015-12-08T21:49:56Z mood: There is this, not sure how much would need to be updated: https://github.com/akamai/cl-http2-protocol
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2015-12-08T22:04:44Z attila_lendvai: but google probably doesn't have any cl code that needs to be interoperable... I need to write a server that will talk to ios/android apps and I don't want to roll my own custom rpc in the 21st century
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2015-12-08T22:05:57Z dlowe: attila_lendvai: the front ends have to talk to the flight search backends
2015-12-08T22:06:22Z dlowe: there's literally no reason to use gRPC/protobuf without interoperability
2015-12-08T22:06:29Z attila_lendvai: dlowe: but do you see any opensource cl activity from google re protobuf/grpc?
2015-12-08T22:07:13Z dlowe: Hey, that doesn't mean CL is popular
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2015-12-08T22:07:56Z dlowe: The popular alternative is JSON
2015-12-08T22:08:07Z dlowe: which is probably good enough for most things
2015-12-08T22:09:01Z attila_lendvai: hrm, json also makes sense here, because it won't be high traffic, and I guess it helps debuggability
2015-12-08T22:09:01Z pjb: if you write lisp code, JSON is very bad, and inefficient.
2015-12-08T22:09:06Z p_l: except not having a schema (well, there's JSON Schema, but I don't trust it and we don't have anything for it). Thrift is worse than ONC RPC (package that over a better mobile framing and you get great stuff)
2015-12-08T22:09:26Z pjb: for example, JSON uses Java floating point format, so you have to write a java printer and reader for all your numbers!
2015-12-08T22:09:36Z p_l: pjb: Javascript, which is worse
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2015-12-08T22:09:45Z pjb: yes,
2015-12-08T22:09:46Z pjb: .
2015-12-08T22:09:54Z p_l: gRPC and protobufs get benefit of specification language and quite good transport mechanism (HTTP2)
2015-12-08T22:10:23Z pjb: I can understand using HTTP or HTTP2.  But you can just send a Content-Type: application/common-lisp-sexp instead of json.
2015-12-08T22:10:43Z pjb: or Content-Type: application/rivest-sexp
2015-12-08T22:11:01Z pjb: or even a custom-sexp.
2015-12-08T22:11:12Z p_l: pjb: I like the aspect of extra "specification", decoupled from rest of the code, which can be indeed generated from lisp
2015-12-08T22:11:43Z attila_lendvai: I need to be low-impedance towards the apps, otherwise I may get the question why it's in lisp...
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2015-12-08T22:11:51Z p_l: interestingly, ONC RPC has a glorious past when it comes to being used in Lisp for interop
2015-12-08T22:11:57Z pjb: attila_lendvai: good argument.
2015-12-08T22:11:58Z pjb: :-(
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2015-12-08T22:27:58Z DeadTrickster: so json not fast enough for non-existing server? or what was that? not lispy enough?
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2015-12-08T22:34:36Z oGMo: isn't the main reason for protobufs etc because it's got better C-ish tools?
2015-12-08T22:34:48Z oGMo: generating structs etc
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2015-12-08T22:46:18Z jasom: oGMo: it has an IDL for generating code to any language
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2015-12-08T22:47:05Z oGMo: jasom: right, but vs dynamic formats a la json etc
2015-12-08T22:47:10Z jasom: which reminds me, Apache thrift includes RPC
2015-12-08T22:47:58Z jasom: Xach was working on thrift bindings a while ago
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2015-12-08T23:09:25Z Xach: Probably not me. I don't like to make bindings.
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2015-12-08T23:15:30Z reepca: Is there some equivalent to read-sequence that just reads everything that is currently available?
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2015-12-08T23:27:01Z DeadTrickster: reepca, you mean non-blocking sequence?
2015-12-08T23:27:06Z DeadTrickster: read-sequence
2015-12-08T23:28:05Z Bicyclidine: with no upper limit on size read, probably
2015-12-08T23:28:09Z pillton: What is a name for a macro that expands to (let ((name (slot-value instance 'name))) ...)?
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2015-12-08T23:28:54Z Bicyclidine: i dunno, i'd probably use with-slots instead
2015-12-08T23:29:29Z pillton: I don't want slot-value to be called every time.
2015-12-08T23:29:55Z Bicyclidine: you could call it bind-slots or something, i guess
2015-12-08T23:30:15Z reepca: The issue I'm facing is that if I give a 50-element array to read-sequence, and the stream only has 15 elements ready to be read, it will wait for 50 to be available before returning.
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2015-12-08T23:31:09Z phoe_krk: Hey, over at #lisp-pl we're trying to breathe new air into http://lisp.pl - is there any kind of Lisp CMS/blog anyone would suggest as CLiki seems fairly outdated about the topic?
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2015-12-08T23:39:59Z Bicyclidine: reepca: i don't think there's a standard function for that, but i don't think a loop with LISTEN would be much slower than a hypothetical implementation function
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2015-12-08T23:40:49Z reepca: What, read one element at a time?
2015-12-08T23:40:55Z Bicyclidine: yeah
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2015-12-08T23:43:52Z durant_: When you're stuck in a complex loop is it okay to use a GOTO to break out of it?
2015-12-08T23:44:19Z Bicyclidine: like, cl:loop?
2015-12-08T23:44:23Z durant_: yes
2015-12-08T23:44:36Z Bicyclidine: loop forms establish blocks, you can just RETURN
2015-12-08T23:46:23Z |3b|: for the simple case, there is also loop-finisg
2015-12-08T23:46:26Z |3b|: *loop-finish
2015-12-08T23:46:46Z durant_: I'm doing some numerical work and was using some sbcl
2015-12-08T23:47:27Z reepca: Is there any standard equivalent to listen for working with non-character streams?
2015-12-08T23:47:51Z |3b|: clhs listen
2015-12-08T23:47:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listen.htm
2015-12-08T23:47:54Z Bicyclidine: listen should work with a non-character stream
2015-12-08T23:47:59Z reepca: it doesn't
2015-12-08T23:48:06Z |3b|: yeah, looks like it just says "input stream"
2015-12-08T23:48:12Z reepca: at least, not the kind that usocket produces
2015-12-08T23:48:22Z pillton: reepca: IO libraries can do what you want. e.g. iolib, basic-binary-ipc or cl-async.
2015-12-08T23:49:34Z reepca: listen only returns true "if there is a character immediately available"
2015-12-08T23:49:44Z pjb: phoe_krk: cliki.net is a wiki.  You can insuffle it with new air anytime  you edit it!
2015-12-08T23:49:47Z reepca: pillton: could you recommend one in particular?
2015-12-08T23:49:52Z pjb: Go fucking edit click.net!
2015-12-08T23:50:12Z |3b|: pjb: what good is editing if you don't know the answer?
2015-12-08T23:50:31Z phoe_krk: pjb: uhhh, I have nothing to edit it with.
2015-12-08T23:50:34Z pillton: reepca: My opinion is biased and probably out of date.
2015-12-08T23:50:37Z Bicyclidine: ew, click dot net is some SEO thing
2015-12-08T23:50:49Z pillton: reepca: I wrote basic-binary-ipc.
2015-12-08T23:50:59Z pjb: Then you use google to learn about the subject before updating cliki, obviously.
2015-12-08T23:51:07Z reepca: are any of them in quicklisp?
2015-12-08T23:51:23Z pillton: reepca: They all are as far as I know.
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2015-12-08T23:52:23Z pillton: reepca: You can use quicklisp:system-apropos to find out.
2015-12-08T23:52:34Z |3b|: pjb: being unhelpful doesn't seem like a good way to convince other people to be helpful
2015-12-08T23:53:07Z |3b|: pjb: maybe politely suggest they update cliki with whatever answers they get rather than complain about them asking at all
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2015-12-08T23:55:04Z pjb: Too many people consider it read only.
2015-12-08T23:55:41Z |3b|: sure, so it is reasonable to suggest updating it
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2015-12-08T23:57:12Z phoe_krk: pjb: I've already used google and found nothing, hence I ask here.
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2015-12-08T23:59:40Z |3b|: phoe_krk: you might also try #lispweb, though it isn't very active and probably is mostly people that are also here
2015-12-08T23:59:48Z zacts: 4
2015-12-08T23:59:51Z phoe_krk: actually.
2015-12-09T00:00:02Z phoe_krk: I'll go to sleep right now because my mind ran out of stack.
2015-12-09T00:00:14Z phoe_krk: and ask tomorrow.
2015-12-09T00:00:15Z phoe_krk: Niiiight.
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2015-12-09T00:49:59Z jasom: Xach: ah, it was rsynnott
2015-12-09T00:52:00Z jasom: but he was unable to get permission from his employer to release it; he did point to this one as looking good: https://github.com/lisp/de.setf.thrift
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2015-12-09T01:03:19Z sepi: Is the author of caveman in this channel?
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2015-12-09T01:24:57Z harumph: Are all modern web related libraries written by fukamachi?
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2015-12-09T01:30:18Z eudoxia: um excuse me
2015-12-09T01:30:23Z eudoxia: i write web libraries too
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2015-12-09T01:32:24Z harumph: eudoxia: but it's uncanny. every time i start looking for a library for something, i find a fukamachi repo.
2015-12-09T01:32:50Z harumph: he's like the holowaychuck of lisp (you have to be a nodejs dev to get that)
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2015-12-09T01:33:34Z clintm: harumph: I have noticed this too and am usually pleasantly surprised when this happens.
2015-12-09T01:34:29Z eudoxia: harumph: i only know one insanely productive node dev, tj
2015-12-09T01:34:47Z harumph: tj holowaychuk
2015-12-09T01:35:07Z eudoxia: oh, they are the same person
2015-12-09T01:35:25Z eudoxia: >tfw i'm not yet the tj of lisp
2015-12-09T01:35:28Z eudoxia: why even live
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2015-12-09T01:41:22Z sepi: harumph: yeah, that's also my impression :)
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2015-12-09T01:58:40Z zacts: does sbcl have a pretty printer?
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2015-12-09T01:59:50Z nyef: zacts: It's required as part of the Common Lisp standard.
2015-12-09T02:00:15Z zacts: oh nice
2015-12-09T02:00:22Z zacts: what function do I invoke?
2015-12-09T02:00:55Z zacts: I'm searching the web
2015-12-09T02:00:59Z Bike: clhs pprint
2015-12-09T02:00:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
2015-12-09T02:01:35Z Bike: well, *print-pretty* is the main thing. iirc it's T in sbcl by default anyway
2015-12-09T02:02:03Z zacts: oh nice thanks
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2015-12-09T02:03:26Z nyef: Note that the bulk of the pretty printer is new in the ANSI version of the standard, so you might be out of luck if you're using a CLtL1 implementation.
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2015-12-09T02:56:53Z loke: Good morning Lisp
2015-12-09T02:57:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: good morning, loke
2015-12-09T02:57:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: were you the one working on a massaging website?
2015-12-09T02:58:01Z loke: Massage?
2015-12-09T02:58:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/mass/mess/
2015-12-09T02:58:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2015-12-09T02:58:31Z loke: Website? Well, it's designed for private internal deployment
2015-12-09T02:58:57Z loke: We made it because we didn't like the idea of hosting confidential corporate disucssions on external servers (like slack forces you to)
2015-12-09T02:59:09Z loke: We ended up with something that we feel is nicer to use than slack anyway
2015-12-09T02:59:24Z loke: And it's in Lisp, so that's good.
2015-12-09T02:59:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: How does the communication with the server work?
2015-12-09T03:00:00Z loke: HTTP
2015-12-09T03:00:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: do you use websockets or something like server-sent events?
2015-12-09T03:00:23Z Zhivago: I suspect that's the next thing people will have to start realizing -- the need to understand all servers to be external. :)
2015-12-09T03:00:28Z loke: I have three separate backend implementations: HTML5 EventSource, websockets or long-poll
2015-12-09T03:00:37Z loke: it will gracefully fall back to long-poll
2015-12-09T03:01:10Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: You're welcome to try it: http://potato.dhsdevelopments.com/
2015-12-09T03:01:43Z loke: There are several API's one can use to extend the system too.
2015-12-09T03:01:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been trying to implement EventSource for my own project but I'm having a hard time figuring out which web library to use
2015-12-09T03:02:04Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: You can use mine
2015-12-09T03:02:33Z loke: But note that while EventSource is awesome, many sites use caching proxies that ignore the spec
2015-12-09T03:02:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, this is an internal thing :)
2015-12-09T03:03:18Z loke: they will cache and delay the eventsource messages, and it's incredibly difficult to detect when it happens. It's so bad that our application doesn't even use EventSource by default anymore. It goes straight for websocket with fallback to long poll
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2015-12-09T03:03:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've implemented it in python on Twisted before, but Lisp web frameworks generally seem to leave this kind of thing undocumented
2015-12-09T03:03:59Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: I implemented this:
2015-12-09T03:04:04Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/html5-notification
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2015-12-09T03:05:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks.
2015-12-09T03:06:29Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: The code may seem overly complex, but it's carefully designed to support statelessness with a guarantee that messages are never lost (even if the client is disconnected for an arbitrary time)
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2015-12-09T03:06:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does it work on a thread-per-request model?
2015-12-09T03:06:51Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: No.
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2015-12-09T03:10:31Z loke: You have the concept of "data sources" where each client is subscribed to a set of data sources, and will get an update whenever a source is ready to deliver data. The EventSource "id" value is used to encode the state of all the eventsources.
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2015-12-09T03:12:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: ok, reading through the code now.
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2015-12-09T05:05:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-09T05:05:54Z minion: beach, memo from jasom: thanks for pointing me at Arne Andersson's writings; I implemented his General Balanced Tree for fun and it was quite elegant
2015-12-09T05:06:04Z beach: Nice!
2015-12-09T05:07:03Z eudoxia: hello beach
2015-12-09T05:07:16Z eudoxia: remember that awful ANSI spec source parser I told you about a long time ago?
2015-12-09T05:07:30Z eudoxia: well it's close to somewhat complete, yey
2015-12-09T05:07:54Z beach: Excellent!  I didn't know you were still working on it.
2015-12-09T05:08:31Z eudoxia: i returned to it recently
2015-12-09T05:08:41Z beach: Great!
2015-12-09T05:08:48Z eudoxia: the commit logs record my descent into madness https://github.com/LispLang/ansi-spec
2015-12-09T05:10:17Z beach: Impressive!
2015-12-09T05:11:49Z beach: Do you have any plans for it?
2015-12-09T05:11:51Z eudoxia: thanks. at the moment, it generates a 60MB XML file that's not quite valid XML. so i'm going to finish it and try to clean that up.
2015-12-09T05:12:07Z beach: OK, good idea.
2015-12-09T05:12:28Z eudoxia: the next step is to write down what the XML looks like so i don't forget when i find another shiny toy to get distracted with
2015-12-09T05:12:55Z eudoxia: and then an XML->HTML so i can generate a prettier Hyperspec, post it to Hacker News and rake in that sweet karma
2015-12-09T05:13:15Z beach: Sounds good.
2015-12-09T05:14:09Z eudoxia: yep just a little bit left
2015-12-09T05:14:10Z eudoxia: i learnt more about latex than i ever wanted to
2015-12-09T05:14:23Z beach: I know what you mean!
2015-12-09T05:19:59Z eudoxia: well, whatever. one extra application of this parser: a nicer spec format means interested parties will be able to easily fork the spec
2015-12-09T05:20:22Z beach: Yes, that was the purpose of my wanting it.
2015-12-09T05:20:40Z beach: Be sure to keep us posted about your progress.
2015-12-09T05:20:46Z beach: That's great news indeed.
2015-12-09T05:20:49Z jasom: eudoxia: aren't there copyright issues with forking the spec?
2015-12-09T05:20:59Z beach: Not the draft, no.
2015-12-09T05:21:07Z jasom: ohhh the *draft* ansi spec, nice
2015-12-09T05:21:12Z eudoxia: who knows, maybe some folks will go through it, clear out some contradictions or something and make a new version other impls adopt
2015-12-09T05:21:19Z eudoxia: jasom: the CLHS is copyrighted
2015-12-09T05:21:28Z jasom: eudoxia: as is the final ANSI spec
2015-12-09T05:21:30Z eudoxia: the TeX sources are public domain or whatever
2015-12-09T05:21:43Z eudoxia: yeah yeah but the delta between the TeX sources and the finished product is ~0
2015-12-09T05:21:47Z jasom: right
2015-12-09T05:21:53Z eudoxia: a bunch of editorial changes no-one noticed
2015-12-09T05:24:07Z eudoxia: it's all documented right here http://web.archive.org/web/20140711172606/http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=431
2015-12-09T05:24:54Z eudoxia: tldr ANSI charges 30 of your hard earned dollars for a shitty scan when you can just compile the draft yourself
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2015-12-09T05:32:52Z beach: So, I can soon start my work on Common Lisp version 2 (which will be called something else, so as to avoid confusion with CLtL2).
2015-12-09T05:34:21Z eudoxia: cool, what's CL next gen going to be like
2015-12-09T05:34:37Z eudoxia: Typed CL as in Typed Racket? more consistent names?
2015-12-09T05:34:54Z beach: Like the first, except more things defined.  Like what declarations mean and what conditions are signaled and when.
2015-12-09T05:35:01Z eudoxia: oh
2015-12-09T05:35:37Z eudoxia: like more specific conditions declared in the spec?
2015-12-09T05:35:43Z beach: Maybe.
2015-12-09T05:35:52Z eudoxia: that would be pretty good
2015-12-09T05:36:05Z beach: But especially more things defined where the spec says undefined or implementation specific.
2015-12-09T05:36:07Z eudoxia always wanted a portable "disk full" condition
2015-12-09T05:36:49Z beach: Any attempt at more ambitious changes would fail to gain acceptance, so there would be no point.
2015-12-09T05:36:54Z eudoxia: yes
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2015-12-09T05:39:39Z beach: And, very importantly, any implementation that is conforming according to the new spec would also be conforming according to the existing one.
2015-12-09T05:40:13Z eudoxia: that is also a useful property
2015-12-09T05:40:42Z beach: Yes, I gave it some thought, and I think it is essential.
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2015-12-09T05:45:19Z loke: beach: Just avoice the number 2, or the words "next", "future", etc.
2015-12-09T05:45:22Z loke: avoid
2015-12-09T05:45:45Z beach: Good advice.  Thanks.
2015-12-09T05:46:23Z loke: Something nonthreatening, like... hmm... "General Lisp" :-)
2015-12-09T05:47:21Z beach: I see what you mean.  I have been toying with SCL as in Strict Common Lisp, but I don't like it myself.
2015-12-09T05:47:31Z loke: Is your intent to codify the existing patterns in CL development?
2015-12-09T05:47:47Z beach: Yes, but very conservatively.
2015-12-09T05:47:54Z loke: Like dynamic variable behaviour in the face of threads?
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2015-12-09T05:48:01Z beach: Only where there is more or less consensus.
2015-12-09T05:48:07Z beach: Yes, that's a good one.
2015-12-09T05:48:15Z loke: (I believe pretty much all implementations behave the same in that respect now?)
2015-12-09T05:48:33Z beach: That's the kind of thing I want to capture, yes.
2015-12-09T05:48:33Z loke: At east CCL and SBCL seems to agree :-)
2015-12-09T05:48:51Z beach: And it is very useful behavior too.
2015-12-09T05:48:57Z eudoxia: so, because SCL ⊂ CL, this could be implemented as a sort of compiler plugin
2015-12-09T05:49:12Z eudoxia: or, say, a system you load along with Cleavir that adds extra checks or something
2015-12-09T05:49:30Z beach: I hadn't thought about it that much.
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2015-12-09T05:49:45Z pjb: You could call it weasel, for WSL Well Specified Lisp.
2015-12-09T05:50:24Z beach: Not bad.  But I won't take any name suggestions at this point.  I know where such a discussion will lead.
2015-12-09T05:50:55Z pjb: or cheese.  For faiselle for FSL Formally Specified Lisp.
2015-12-09T05:51:06Z pjb: :-)
2015-12-09T05:51:11Z loke: beach: I would love to see better threading privitives. Most implementation (with the exception of CCL) alreadt has them, but you can rarely use them since Bordeaux exposes such a tiny bit. I've started wiriting my own extension to bordeaux that at least provides things like CAS condition-broadcast (the latter one needing a whole emulation layer for CCL, because of its utter braindead threading primitives)
2015-12-09T05:51:38Z loke: I mean CAS _and_ condition-broadscast
2015-12-09T05:51:46Z loke: I didn't mean to imlpy they have anything to do with eachother
2015-12-09T05:51:50Z beach: loke: Good plan, but I won't go that far in SCL (or whatever it will be called).
2015-12-09T05:52:28Z loke: beach: Once thing that is desperately needed, but would be hard work is to have a formalised memory model.
2015-12-09T05:52:48Z beach: I am not into hard work.
2015-12-09T05:53:03Z eudoxia: perhaps a succession of modifications to the standard
2015-12-09T05:53:09Z beach: Laziness is a virtue in CS as you know.
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2015-12-09T05:53:38Z eudoxia: CL/1.1 clear out some undefined behaviour, CL/1.2 formal memory model, CL/1.3 threading primitives
2015-12-09T05:53:42Z beach: eudoxia: Yes, definitely, and each one with very low ambition level.  And with several years in between.
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2015-12-09T05:55:29Z loke: I'm concerned that many CL implementations might not even _have_ a formal memory model.
2015-12-09T05:55:59Z loke: That could make it very hard to design threading primitives that are more clever than simple locks.
2015-12-09T05:57:11Z loke: That said, one can always implement anything on top of locks and simple condition notifications, which is what I'm having to do to implement condition-broadcast on CCL. It's slow as, well... something really really slow, but what can I do?
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2015-12-09T05:57:40Z beach: Sounds like you have a quest for yourself.
2015-12-09T05:58:12Z loke: beach: My quest is dictated by me wanting Potato to run on CCL again, which hasn't been possible since I started using condition-broadcast.
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2015-12-09T05:59:12Z beach: loke: Fine, but you should know that I do not plan to work on a formal memory model for SCL (or whatever it will be called) so that you can run Potato on CCL.
2015-12-09T05:59:32Z loke: beach: I'm not asking you to.
2015-12-09T05:59:37Z beach: Good.
2015-12-09T06:00:11Z loke: What I am asking you to is to consider my extended threading primitives if I ever finish with them.
2015-12-09T06:00:34Z beach: We can discuss that when it happens.
2015-12-09T06:00:41Z loke: You mean "if" it happens.
2015-12-09T06:00:47Z beach: That too. :)
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2015-12-09T06:06:49Z pjb: Let's be optimistic!
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2015-12-09T06:08:18Z beach: That is very un-Lisp-y of you.
2015-12-09T06:09:12Z beach: The more Lisp-y way seems to be "it can't be done", "too much work", "pointless", "we are all doomed", etc.
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2015-12-09T06:31:03Z Robdgreat: "just give up"
2015-12-09T06:31:11Z Robdgreat is learning
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2015-12-09T06:46:34Z beach: Robdgreat: Sorry to expose you to this negativism.
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2015-12-09T06:47:19Z Robdgreat: I'm already saturated, don't worry
2015-12-09T06:47:24Z beach: Heh!
2015-12-09T06:47:42Z beach: For what it's worth, I am not at all pessimistic or negative myself.
2015-12-09T06:49:20Z Robdgreat: I have nothing but time lately, yet I can't seem to motivate myself to start learning Lisp for real, so I just lurk hoping to learn by osmosis
2015-12-09T06:49:27Z Robdgreat: It's not working. You guys need to try harder
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2015-12-09T06:50:07Z pjb: You've watched too much Matrix.
2015-12-09T06:50:40Z Robdgreat: no neck stabby
2015-12-09T06:50:44Z pjb: Robdgreat: you may try the book "The Little Schemer"; it includes sandwiches of peanut butter and marmelade.
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2015-12-09T06:51:30Z beach: Anyway, time to get to work!
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2015-12-09T06:51:47Z Robdgreat: work is for suckers!
2015-12-09T06:51:50Z Robdgreat doesn't think this
2015-12-09T06:52:00Z Robdgreat: it just helps me feel better about being unemployed
2015-12-09T06:53:10Z Robdgreat: pjb: are the Ten Commandments meant to mean anything at all to the uninitiated?
2015-12-09T06:53:27Z pjb: not really
2015-12-09T06:53:38Z Robdgreat: ok, good. I shall come back to them later on
2015-12-09T06:53:58Z loke: pjb: Peanut butter tastes pretty gross. But mixing it with marmelade (or jam, as they do in the us) is even grosser
2015-12-09T06:54:03Z pjb: That's why they're at the beginning, so you may come back to them easily.
2015-12-09T06:54:22Z Robdgreat: peanut butter is great
2015-12-09T06:54:24Z pjb: loke: I know, but that's the recipe in The Little Schemer.
2015-12-09T06:54:28Z Robdgreat: I prefer jam to marmalade, yes
2015-12-09T06:54:41Z loke: Marmelade is nice on toasts
2015-12-09T06:54:51Z pjb: IIRC, there are allowances for local variations.
2015-12-09T06:55:02Z Robdgreat: I could go for some marmite on toast
2015-12-09T06:55:11Z loke: Robdgreat: You Aussie?
2015-12-09T06:55:11Z Robdgreat: these damn kiwis have won me over
2015-12-09T06:55:20Z Robdgreat: loke: kiwi transplant
2015-12-09T06:55:25Z loke: Hmm, I thought marmite was an aussie thing?
2015-12-09T06:55:34Z Robdgreat: if I were Aussie I might be more likely to have said vegemite
2015-12-09T06:55:44Z loke: Robdgreat: where are you from?
2015-12-09T06:55:51Z loke: originally
2015-12-09T06:55:51Z Robdgreat: southern US
2015-12-09T06:56:14Z loke: I have tried marmite. It was not very pleasant. :-)  That said, I can understand why some peope like it.
2015-12-09T06:56:28Z Robdgreat: you have to use small quantities
2015-12-09T06:56:36Z Robdgreat: if you put too much it's not good
2015-12-09T06:56:37Z loke: I used a very small quantity :-)
2015-12-09T06:56:52Z Robdgreat: that said, I know a guy who talks about eating vegemite from the jar with a spoon
2015-12-09T06:56:54Z Robdgreat: that's dedication
2015-12-09T06:57:05Z Robdgreat: he's not even from australasia. He's Finnish
2015-12-09T06:57:36Z loke: Robdgreat: Have your tried Kvas? (it's a russian drink, tastes a bit like vegemite/marmite)
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2015-12-09T06:57:52Z Robdgreat: No, but I'm game to try
2015-12-09T06:58:38Z loke: Robdgreat: It tastes like... hmm... bread yeast, with a foamy consistency like beer
2015-12-09T06:59:19Z loke: It's not bad actually. Traditionally sold from soviet-style stalls like this one: http://www.wineterroirs.com/images/2007/08/03/rus_wn_kvas.jpg
2015-12-09T06:59:25Z Robdgreat: I may need to be on the lookout for it
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2015-12-09T06:59:49Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-12-09T07:02:51Z loke: Hej maki
2015-12-09T07:02:52Z loke: kami
2015-12-09T07:03:21Z kami: loke: too early for maki, here :)
2015-12-09T07:03:32Z loke: what is maki?
2015-12-09T07:04:02Z loke: Oh, the japanese sushi thing
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2015-12-09T07:05:50Z kami: :)
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2015-12-09T07:07:37Z loke: kami: I'd presume you're in Europe then?
2015-12-09T07:07:42Z loke: I just had lunch
2015-12-09T07:11:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Good night! :)
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2015-12-09T09:11:41Z Jonsky: Little schemer is cool. Full of elephants
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2015-12-09T09:16:35Z xantoz: I have a cxml question: I'm using with-xml-output to generate XML. How do I generate processing instructions? Specifically I'm looking to associate an XSLT with the document.
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2015-12-09T09:43:43Z loke: Jonsky: The problem si that is discusses Scheme, which is not Lisp/
2015-12-09T09:45:18Z Jonsky: Oh c'mon
2015-12-09T09:45:24Z Jonsky: It's just lisp-1
2015-12-09T09:45:51Z Jonsky: And I didn't know a damn thing about y combinator before reading it.
2015-12-09T09:46:38Z Jonsky: I didn't expect it to go into that respect of computer programming. Before reading that I thought it's only about some nice tricks of writing programmes in lisp.
2015-12-09T09:46:44Z Jonsky: or Scheme
2015-12-09T09:47:16Z Jonsky: So I really like the book. It explains some serious stuff in a way that evey a n00b like me can understand.
2015-12-09T09:52:06Z xantoz: nvm, I found cxml:processing-instruction
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2015-12-09T09:57:03Z Jonsky: And I always wonder why CL has no call-with-current-continuation
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2015-12-09T09:57:42Z Jonsky: I read from the table of content of On Lisp that we can creat a macro for it ourselves but I still wonder why it's not included in CL.
2015-12-09T10:00:49Z Shinmera: Because it's a very tough constraint on compiler writers.
2015-12-09T10:01:24Z Shinmera: You can fake continuations to some extent as cl-cont and similar projects do, but it's not really the same.
2015-12-09T10:01:47Z Jonsky: But even Scheme has it...I want my call-cc toy....mommy...
2015-12-09T10:01:50Z Shinmera: And really, continuations are way less useful than people claim.
2015-12-09T10:02:58Z Jonsky: Oh...I thought it's used a lot in real programming because The Seasoned Schemer spent several chapters explaining it.
2015-12-09T10:03:23Z Shinmera: Schemers would like to have you believe it's very useful, but it really isn't.
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2015-12-09T10:04:20Z Jonsky: Argh... all those headaches are not nothing then.
2015-12-09T10:04:32Z Jonsky: are for* nothing
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2015-12-09T10:04:44Z Shinmera: Learning new concepts and ideas is never for nothing.
2015-12-09T10:05:20Z Shinmera: It's a nice way to think and solve certain problems and sometimes it is the cleanest solution.
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2015-12-09T10:05:34Z Shinmera: *to think about and
2015-12-09T10:05:42Z Jonsky: When I really got it I was so surprised that before I never really understood what it means exactly to be "next process".
2015-12-09T10:08:01Z Jonsky: So what if you would like to use a certain point of computation in the future but you don't want to use call-with-cc? Would you do it by making a closure to save the current point?
2015-12-09T10:08:16Z Shinmera: Either way, CL is in many respects an engineer's language. It was designed for real world corporations to write useful programs and solutions with. And it was designed as the combination of several existing dialects at the time, so it has a lot of things in it that exist because they're useful or because doing otherwise would be impractical for little benefit.
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2015-12-09T10:09:13Z Shinmera: Sure, you can use closures if you want.
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2015-12-09T10:21:10Z DeadTrickster: uh oh
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2015-12-09T10:23:52Z DeadTrickster: is there any known compare and swap implementation except sbcl?
2015-12-09T10:24:33Z Shinmera: The commercial ones probably have support for it
2015-12-09T10:25:59Z Shinmera: For CCL I'm finding http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/994
2015-12-09T10:27:40Z Shinmera: ABCL should be able to use the Java stuff.
2015-12-09T10:28:18Z easye: ABCL's story on atomic operators is unfortunately not that clear.
2015-12-09T10:28:44Z Shinmera: Oh?
2015-12-09T10:29:09Z easye: We use the JVM primitives  (inconsistently).  A more thorough code review (including what our compiler outputs) with a testsuite would give me more confidence in that we are "doing the right thing"
2015-12-09T10:29:51Z easye: That being said, I know of no reproducible test case that shows we *don't* have atomic operations.
2015-12-09T10:30:28Z easye: From what I understand of the JVM, all primitive types other than a Java long should be atomic.
2015-12-09T10:31:14Z easye: I'd be happy to go over what I know (not much really) about this issue in more detail in #abcl if anyone has a burning need.
2015-12-09T10:31:49Z Shinmera: I was thinking of using explicit atomic types from the Java libs like AtomicInteger and all.
2015-12-09T10:32:07Z Shinmera: Those should work anyway, right?
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2015-12-09T10:32:23Z easye: Yes, of course.
2015-12-09T10:32:49Z Shinmera: Yeah, and those have a CAS method, which is what DeadTrickster is looking for.
2015-12-09T10:32:52Z easye: But I would think that users would expect this to be preserved in CL types as well by any decent implementation.
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2015-12-09T10:50:22Z luis: DeadTrickster: http://kvardek-du.kerno.org/2012/06/augmenting-bordeaux-threads-with-atomic.html
2015-12-09T10:51:03Z luis: alas, I never got to actually add anything to bordeaux-threads :(
2015-12-09T10:51:07Z DeadTrickster: thank you guys
2015-12-09T10:51:30Z luis: but, that's a 3+ year old survey of CAS support in CL implementations
2015-12-09T10:53:01Z luis: one important take away from that blog post is that "CAS support" is not a boolean proposition.
2015-12-09T10:53:22Z DeadTrickster: yeah "place" should be considered too
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2015-12-09T10:53:27Z mdemont: (how hard (is it (to)) learn lisp)
2015-12-09T10:53:52Z DeadTrickster: but looks like I want only svref
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2015-12-09T11:03:33Z synchromesh: mdemont: Not that hard. Check out http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
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2015-12-09T11:14:07Z namespace: mdemont: Depends on your prior programming experience.
2015-12-09T11:14:42Z namespace: If you're a decent programmer to begin with I'd agree on Not That Hard. If you're a novice it will be considerably harder to grok it.
2015-12-09T11:15:06Z namespace: But that's probably true for any programming language. Lisp is just a cut above in that respect.
2015-12-09T11:15:44Z namespace: Source: Tried to learn Lisp as my first language barring minor experience with python, got my butt kicked.
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2015-12-09T11:19:44Z Jonsky: I used to find CL's 2 namespace awkward
2015-12-09T11:21:55Z mdemont: should I read sicp?
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2015-12-09T11:22:49Z namespace: mdemont: Well probably yes but not for CL. SICP is a great book but if you're just looking to learn the language (You are trying to learn CL right?) you probably want Paul Graham's On Lisp.
2015-12-09T11:23:02Z namespace: As a note, PG's book assumes prior programming experience.
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2015-12-09T11:24:06Z Jonsky: Or maybe he can read PG's ANSI Common Lisp first?
2015-12-09T11:24:11Z Jonsky: I find it enjoyable to read
2015-12-09T11:24:22Z p_l: for just learning CL as second or latter language, I recommend Practical Common Lisp
2015-12-09T11:24:47Z Jonsky: That one's very cool!!!
2015-12-09T11:24:48Z p_l: On Lisp later for some macrology I guess, PG's ANSI CL only with Graham Crackers on hand
2015-12-09T11:25:21Z p_l: SICP is a general book about programming. A very good book, but it's not one for learning a language - it's one for learning how to think about programming
2015-12-09T11:25:24Z Jonsky: I like that Peter Seibel wrote some long programme to show how things are actually much more convenient in Lisp
2015-12-09T11:26:21Z Jonsky: I couldn't get Chapter 4 of SICP at first, even after re-reading the chapter several time.
2015-12-09T11:26:24Z mdemont: i dont know what is CL?
2015-12-09T11:26:30Z Jonsky: I had to look on the internet.
2015-12-09T11:26:35Z Jonsky: CL-- Common Lisp
2015-12-09T11:26:49Z mdemont: ah
2015-12-09T11:26:53Z mdemont: i have dr racket installed
2015-12-09T11:27:22Z Jonsky: Are you using Realm of Racket?
2015-12-09T11:27:37Z mdemont: dont know what that is
2015-12-09T11:27:53Z jackdaniel: mdemont: I believe you'll be better supported on the #scheme channel . People use here Common Lisp, which is different from racket
2015-12-09T11:28:04Z mdemont: hmm
2015-12-09T11:28:05Z mdemont: ok
2015-12-09T11:28:06Z Jonsky: And I stopped SICP in the middle of Chapter 5. I might go back to it later. It's just a bit difficult.
2015-12-09T11:28:10Z easye: Jonsky: +1 on _ANSI Common Lisp_ as a fun read.  That a ray tracer could be so elegantly expressed "blew my mind"
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2015-12-09T11:28:26Z Jonsky: OH YES!!!
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2015-12-09T11:28:57Z Jonsky: You know I spent an hour or two just staring at that 3 or 4 pages of code.
2015-12-09T11:29:27Z Jonsky: The maths is not difficult for me as I studied maths. But I was like "What? You can do that in CL???"
2015-12-09T11:31:24Z Jonsky: The other examples like quick sort or so are too short and common. So I didn't pay attention. But the ray tracer was really something.
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2015-12-09T12:24:06Z sepi: Does anyone know how to get the id of a recently added row using datafly?
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2015-12-09T13:54:35Z mrottenkolber: Hi
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2015-12-09T13:56:36Z mrottenkolber: So I created ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/foo-bar.conf, containing two lines of the form (:tree "/some/path/") but ASDF won't find the systems. What am I missing? I know it reads the config, but I can't tell why it doesn't pick up any systems.
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2015-12-09T13:58:20Z mrottenkolber: Or if it picks up any, asdf:*source-registry-parameter* is nil
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2015-12-09T14:01:06Z synchromesh: mrottenkolber: My foo-bar.conf contains ";(:tree (:home "src/synchromesh/"))" which suggests I couldn't get it to work either, but I can't find the mechanism I'm using instead... :(
2015-12-09T14:02:17Z mrottenkolber: This sucks, the new ASDF is all neat and such but this not working is so typical...
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2015-12-09T14:03:19Z Xach: I added the local-projects thing because I could not remember the syntax and paths for asdf configuration
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2015-12-09T14:04:09Z mrottenkolber: But QL uses asdf underneath, no?
2015-12-09T14:05:27Z synchromesh: Ah, symlinks in ~/.local/share/common-lisp/systems/ to my .asd files in my source tree.
2015-12-09T14:05:46Z mrottenkolber: oh not this shit again
2015-12-09T14:05:54Z synchromesh: I knew they were there somewhere...
2015-12-09T14:06:13Z synchromesh: Yes, *ASDF-CENTRAL-REGISTRY* is dead, long live *ASDF
2015-12-09T14:06:19Z synchromesh: -CENTRAL-REGISTRY*!
2015-12-09T14:06:25Z mrottenkolber: symlinks for *each* ASD or to the trees?
2015-12-09T14:06:46Z Xach: mrottenkolber: yes. but you can add custom functions to search for systems, and quicklisp adds one.
2015-12-09T14:06:49Z synchromesh: Just the .ASD files themselves, not the directories.
2015-12-09T14:07:05Z synchromesh: Yes, each .ASD file.
2015-12-09T14:07:57Z synchromesh: This is just what Worked For Me, there's probably a "more correct" way.
2015-12-09T14:08:03Z mrottenkolber: Xach: I am looking for a standard way to find installed systems. I don't really like using QL because I don't want to build my app including a package manager...
2015-12-09T14:08:17Z Xach: mrottenkolber: sure, i understand. i wouldn't either.
2015-12-09T14:08:27Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi
2015-12-09T14:08:28Z Xach: mrottenkolber: just commiserating, sort of.
2015-12-09T14:08:38Z mrottenkolber: synchromesh: Well, I am doing it the “correct” way and it doesn't work. :)
2015-12-09T14:08:43Z Xach: when faced with the same problem, i gave up in my own way
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2015-12-09T14:09:06Z mrottenkolber: How do I find out which ASDF version I am on?
2015-12-09T14:09:20Z mrottenkolber: Gonna drop fare a mail I think :)
2015-12-09T14:09:32Z synchromesh: mrottenkolber: Yes, I'm hoping someone will help us get the "correct" way to work... :)
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2015-12-09T14:15:21Z mrottenkolber: Well if Xach couldn't figure it out then fare messed up. At the very least this is a documentation bug.
2015-12-09T14:15:51Z Xach: I think I could figure it out if I was carefully reading the documentation at the time, but I forgot it very quickly
2015-12-09T14:16:00Z Xach: It was a "set up once and then never touch" kind of thing
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2015-12-09T14:16:53Z Shinmera: In my opinion it's still messed up because so far every time this has come up nobody has been able to answer the problem adequately.
2015-12-09T14:17:11Z mrottenkolber: It's not like I am not following the documentation
2015-12-09T14:17:14Z Shinmera: So even if it works somehow, it's still far from usable.
2015-12-09T14:17:15Z mrottenkolber: It just doesn't work.
2015-12-09T14:17:37Z mrottenkolber: > First create the directory ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/3; there create a file with any name of your choice but with the type conf4, for instance 50-luser-lisp.conf; in this file, add the following line to tell ASDF to recursively scan all the subdirectories under /home/luser/lisp/ for .asd files: (:tree "/home/luser/lisp/")
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2015-12-09T14:17:46Z mrottenkolber: This doesn't work, period.
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2015-12-09T14:18:05Z mrottenkolber: ASDF 3.1.3
2015-12-09T14:18:40Z mrottenkolber: It reads the configuration file but it doesn't scan the directories.
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2015-12-09T14:34:22Z mrottenkolber: Aha. it doesn't follow symlinks! :)
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2015-12-09T14:37:13Z mrottenkolber: It works!!!
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2015-12-09T14:40:17Z Posterdati: hi
2015-12-09T14:40:24Z synchromesh: mrottenkolber: Can you describe what you've determined? I don't have any symlinks in my tree...
2015-12-09T14:40:38Z mrottenkolber: Cool: now I can have a fairly simple Makefile to build my (ccl specifc) app:
2015-12-09T14:40:38Z mrottenkolber: bin/erlangen-port-mapper:
2015-12-09T14:40:38Z mrottenkolber: 	ccl -Q -b -n -l build/port-mapper.lisp
2015-12-09T14:41:27Z mrottenkolber: synchromesh: (:tree "/usr/lib/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/") <- this works for me.
2015-12-09T14:41:49Z mrottenkolber: (in /home/max/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/20-quicklisp.conf)
2015-12-09T14:41:53Z Xach: that is not a great option
2015-12-09T14:42:09Z Xach: there are *.asd files in quicklisp/software/ that are not and should not be loaded normally
2015-12-09T14:42:26Z Xach: usually that happens when a project bundles a bunch of third-party libraries that are no longer necessary to bundle, and they fall out of sync
2015-12-09T14:42:28Z Cymew: $ cat ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/00-asdf.conf -> (:tree "/home/ante/src/") works fine for me.
2015-12-09T14:42:29Z synchromesh: Yes, that just looks like what Quicklisp does itself anyway...
2015-12-09T14:42:43Z mrottenkolber: Xach: what would be preferred?
2015-12-09T14:42:45Z Xach: quicklisp does not do that. it has a static index of valid system files.
2015-12-09T14:43:20Z Xach: mrottenkolber: I don't have a good short answer. what i do is use ql:write-asdf-manifest-file and make a function to read from that manifest file and put it in the system search function list.
2015-12-09T14:43:21Z mrottenkolber: synchromesh: replace the directory with whatever you want, it will work but not follow symlinks under that tree
2015-12-09T14:43:40Z Cymew: I can confirm the above mentioned third party situation is bad. Quite messy, and I got some help from Xach debugging jus that.
2015-12-09T14:44:12Z synchromesh: mrottenkolber, Cymew: Thanks, I'll try that at some point.
2015-12-09T14:44:42Z Cymew: mrottenkolber: Could be Fare was thinking about portability. Windows does not have symlinks. :(
2015-12-09T14:45:23Z mrottenkolber: Cymew: Yeah, I wouldn't be mad if he just did not think about symlinks at all, the are funky business. My bad, really.
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2015-12-09T14:48:02Z mrottenkolber: Xach: I think I understand what you mean, bundled systems could supersede QL systems? Isn't that really a fault of the bundling systems?
2015-12-09T14:48:30Z Xach: mrottenkolber: yes. and it would be good to do away with them. that has not happened yet.
2015-12-09T14:49:00Z Xach: you could say that bundling systems is a symptom of an outdated project. i don't think people start new projects that way.
2015-12-09T14:49:49Z mrottenkolber: I think that would be a reasonable “precondition” for QL systems: All dependencies must be QL systems.
2015-12-09T14:50:44Z mrottenkolber: I can image some people feel bad for submitting their tiny libs as QL systems, I know I did, but as far as I remember you sanctioned that last ELS. :)
2015-12-09T14:51:50Z Xach: don't feel bad! i don't care how i pad my stats! one-line libraries are just as critical as 100kloc projects when i chase that sweet vc funding!
2015-12-09T14:52:01Z mrottenkolber: haha
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2015-12-09T16:00:09Z Mini_Evo: Hi guys, I'm struggling with some code here: http://pastebin.com/Ur2FNXHM , is there an easier way than running (remove nil ???) at the end (it feels inefficient)
2015-12-09T16:02:06Z dim: you can use loop instead
2015-12-09T16:02:11Z reb``````: Mini_Evo: Looks like your high level goal is to retain integers in a list and remove non-integers.  Is that right?
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2015-12-09T16:02:27Z nyef: Mini_Evo: Have a look at the LOOP macro.
2015-12-09T16:02:29Z nyef: clhs loop
2015-12-09T16:02:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
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2015-12-09T16:02:46Z dim: (loop for x in '(1 x 2 y z 3) when (numberp x) collect x) --> (1 2 3)
2015-12-09T16:03:01Z Mini_Evo: reb`: that is correct, I'm also trying to retain operators in the new list
2015-12-09T16:03:18Z dim: (remove-if-not #'numberp '(1 x 2 y z 3)) (1 2 3)
2015-12-09T16:03:20Z Mini_Evo: unfortunately, it's a programming assignment and I'm not allowed to use the loop construct
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2015-12-09T16:03:37Z nyef: ... You know you've been working in Lisp for a while when... you want dynamic scope for common table expressions in SQL.
2015-12-09T16:03:39Z reb`: Mini_Evo: As dim suggested you can use loop, but also see remove, remove-if, remove-if-not, etc.
2015-12-09T16:03:41Z dim: oh an assignment, I should have guessed
2015-12-09T16:04:04Z dim: nyef: hehe
2015-12-09T16:04:15Z dim: nyef: dynamic scope in SQL is known as UPDATE ;-)
2015-12-09T16:04:24Z Mini_Evo: I already have (remove nil(map 'list #'integer-collect? input)))
2015-12-09T16:04:28Z dim: in PostgreSQL you can UPDATE ... RETURNING from within CTEs
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2015-12-09T16:04:51Z Mini_Evo: but is it possible to have my #'integer-collect? function to return 'nothing' instead of nil
2015-12-09T16:05:05Z nyef: dim: This is a particularly nasty query scenario pieced together with stored procedures running dynamic SQL.
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2015-12-09T16:05:22Z reb`: Mini_Evo: no
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2015-12-09T16:06:12Z Mini_Evo: so running (remove nil) on my returned list is the best scenario?
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2015-12-09T16:06:39Z dim: nyef: that kind of dynamic SQL where you build a query and throw it to EXECUTE?
2015-12-09T16:06:44Z nyef: Yes!
2015-12-09T16:06:48Z dlowe: Mini_Evo: you should remove nil before mapping
2015-12-09T16:07:01Z dim: it's quite awful
2015-12-09T16:07:22Z dim: nyef: see if you can avoid it... sometimes a recursive query helps
2015-12-09T16:07:37Z dim: depends what you're doing, hop on to #postgresql some people are really helpful there
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2015-12-09T16:07:40Z Mini_Evo: reb`: nil is returned as a result of the map
2015-12-09T16:08:14Z dim: I can tell you that if RhodiumToad gets interested into your problem you're out of the woods, but please ask to the channel at wide, just like here
2015-12-09T16:08:24Z nyef: In this case, it's producing a single row of results, but each element gets to run virtually the same query parameterized for a different table joined in and a different set of (dynamic) where clauses.
2015-12-09T16:09:02Z dim: sounds like maybe window functions would solve it then
2015-12-09T16:09:14Z dim: or correlated subqueries
2015-12-09T16:09:19Z dim: anyway
2015-12-09T16:09:46Z nyef: Hrm. Three angles to try. Thank you! (-:
2015-12-09T16:11:07Z dim: if you're not comfortable yet with window functions, learn that first, then get back to your problem
2015-12-09T16:11:17Z Xach: corrugated subqueries
2015-12-09T16:11:17Z dim: there's SQL before Window Functions and after it
2015-12-09T16:11:48Z dim: nyef, see http://tapoueh.org/blog/2013/08/20-Window-Functions and http://tapoueh.org/blog/2012/10/05-reset-counter to begin with ;-)
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2015-12-09T16:32:40Z drmeister: If I start up slime when another slime is running - how does that work?  Do all forms go to the second *inferior-lisp*<2> until I shut it down and then the initial *inferior-lisp* takes over?
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2015-12-09T16:33:22Z Shinmera: The status bar will tell you which one the current buffer is connected to
2015-12-09T16:35:10Z armour: Greetings. I had an error installing parenscript that cannot find package NAMED-READTABLES. When runing (ql:quickload '(cl-who hunchentoot parenscript)). It does install cl-who and hunchentoot with dependencies. But no way around parenscript. Been googling around but maybe you can point me into the right direction.
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2015-12-09T16:36:11Z Xach: armour: it might be a problem with :defsystem-depends-on that quicklisp has
2015-12-09T16:36:12Z dim: drmeister: you can use either, sometimes I have a REPL on SBCL and another one on CCL e.g.
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2015-12-09T16:36:47Z Xach: armour: does it work if you explicitly add named-readtables?
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2015-12-09T16:40:19Z armour: Xach: have not tried it. I actually reinitialized the source registry and got REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE: illegal keyword/value pair :MAILTO,
2015-12-09T16:40:19Z armour:       "mega@retes.hu" in argument list.
2015-12-09T16:40:19Z armour:  
2015-12-09T16:40:38Z Xach: armour: interesting. are you using clisp?
2015-12-09T16:40:43Z armour: yes
2015-12-09T16:40:59Z Xach: are you able to use something better instead?
2015-12-09T16:41:05Z Xach: sbcl and ccl are better.
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2015-12-09T16:42:51Z armour: Xach: I have sbcl on my arm computer, will try there. I kinda newbie to lisp, so I try to run the implementtion that goes for the book I am learning from.
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2015-12-09T16:46:03Z armour: Xach: you might be right, maybe is something withn clisp. Looks it is calling a keyword :MAILTO that might not be implemented on parenscript anymore. A bug?
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2015-12-09T16:46:25Z warweasle: Are there any sbcl hackers on now? I would like to know if I can spit out the guts of an interpreted form.
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2015-12-09T16:47:51Z nyef: warweasle: As an SBCL hacker, my answer is "I have no idea, but if it's an interpreted function I might try function-lambda-expression".
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2015-12-09T16:49:22Z warweasle: nyef: I'm assuming interpreted forms are compiled to something else?
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2015-12-09T16:50:07Z warweasle: nyef: Is there any chance it's optimized lisp code?
2015-12-09T16:54:33Z nyef: It depends on your interpreter-mode setting. And even when it's set to compile, it might still interpret if it's "simple" enough. And I have no idea how the interpreters work.
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2015-12-09T17:01:12Z warweasle: nyef: hmmm...I guess this is a dead end.
2015-12-09T17:02:02Z nyef: Or you need to find another SBCL hacker. What are you actually trying to do?
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2015-12-09T17:07:01Z warweasle: nyef: I want to serialize and deserialize a closure. But I want to do as much processing on the client. Processing constants, expanding macros, etc.
2015-12-09T17:07:19Z nyef: Ah, okay, you're doing crazy black magic. Nevermind then. (-:
2015-12-09T17:07:26Z nyef: Good luck.
2015-12-09T17:07:36Z warweasle: nyef: You might think me insane.
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2015-12-09T17:10:47Z nyef: Only if you try to put such an abomination into production.
2015-12-09T17:15:07Z nyef: I can certainly understand working out a prototype for doing such things, but one of the main things that you should be learning from it is how fragile it is.
2015-12-09T17:16:11Z nyef: Including with respect to updates to your lisp implementation, considerations for any cross-implementation-version things going on, and the like.
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2015-12-09T17:20:46Z Mini_Evo: hi again guys, any idea how I would extract the following lambda function into it's own standalone function: (map 'list (lambda (term) (format t "Checking for ~d in ~d~%" term input)) input))
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2015-12-09T17:30:40Z warweasle: nyef: I might just make a mini-lisp interpreter.
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2015-12-09T17:34:33Z Bike: Mini_Evo: what's input?
2015-12-09T17:35:17Z Mini_Evo: a list of items e.g. '(5x x y 1 2 3)
2015-12-09T17:35:50Z Bike: I mean, like, is it a closure variable? Do you want multiple functions for different inputs, or what?
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2015-12-09T17:40:28Z Mini_Evo: I'd like one of the variables to stay the same, and the other to be iterated through
2015-12-09T17:40:48Z Mini_Evo: so I can create a function to check for a term for each place in the list
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2015-12-09T17:50:52Z drmeister: Thanks folks, for the advice on using multiple slime sessions.
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2015-12-09T17:57:38Z prxq: warweasle: what do you want to do with closure serialization ?
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2015-12-09T18:00:27Z phoe_krk: Haskell is amusing
2015-12-09T18:01:20Z attila_lendvai: we have some proof of concept to use serializable closures to implement some business process modeling stuff. basically call/cc continuations committed into the database, with surprisingly little constraints compared to vanilla CL
2015-12-09T18:01:29Z Bike: Mini_Evo: you can do like (let ((input whatever)) (defun check-whatever (term) (format t "Checking for ~d in ~d~%" term input)))
2015-12-09T18:03:11Z warweasle: prxq: I actually want to run code on a client and send it (as updates) to the server. I think I can use macro-something to replace variables...
2015-12-09T18:04:07Z warweasle: symbol-macrolet
2015-12-09T18:04:41Z Mini_Evo: I Bike: I tried the following http://pastebin.com/67kmU8Uh
2015-12-09T18:05:19Z Mini_Evo: I just want to be able to called a #'term-collect? function instead of the lambda function
2015-12-09T18:05:56Z Mini_Evo: but have the term stay the same and the list position change each iteration through the map
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2015-12-09T18:09:49Z Bike: i'd replace it with a function that makes a closure. like (defun make-term-collect (term) (lambda (input) ...)), and then use it like (eval (remove nil (map 'list (make-term-collect term) input))).
2015-12-09T18:10:28Z warweasle: Ack. Is there a macro which replaces a symbol in a list something else?
2015-12-09T18:10:38Z Bike: there is a function, SUBSTITUTE
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2015-12-09T18:11:55Z Mini_Evo: I'll give that a shot, cheers for the help!
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2015-12-09T18:31:54Z sepi: Why would I choose cl-dbi over clsql?
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2015-12-09T18:36:36Z dlowe: beats me. why would you?
2015-12-09T18:36:47Z attila_lendvai: there's also hu.dwim.rdbms (we wrote it because clsql confuses database and transactions, which was a bad enough sign to just write our own after a few weeks of struggling with it)
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2015-12-09T18:37:39Z attila_lendvai: it has only one well-tested backend, for postgres sqlite is ok, oracle is old and rusty
2015-12-09T18:39:51Z sepi: dlowe: mainly because I was giving caveman2 a shot but now I'm a bit frustrated with the state of documentation of datafy which in turn uses  cl-dbi so now I've been looking if there are good alternatives
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2015-12-09T19:19:46Z attila_lendvai: how do I turn a negative cl integer into an (unsigned-byte 16)?
2015-12-09T19:20:08Z jasom: attila_lendvai: do you want twos complement?
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2015-12-09T19:20:20Z attila_lendvai: jasom: yes, it's for FFI
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2015-12-09T19:22:42Z jasom: attila_lendvai: (logand #xffff x)
2015-12-09T19:23:10Z jasom: there's probably other ways to do it
2015-12-09T19:23:57Z attila_lendvai: jasom: thanks
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2015-12-09T19:32:14Z Bike: (ldb (byte n 0) x) is easy for other widths
2015-12-09T19:33:16Z attila_lendvai: Bike: thanks!
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2015-12-09T19:41:12Z axion: Xach: do you plan on continuing lisptips?
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2015-12-09T19:47:43Z cbd_: Hey I am having trouble loading a package in clisp
2015-12-09T19:48:00Z cbd_: I've stumbled across weitz.de/packages.html
2015-12-09T19:48:14Z cbd_: which basically tells me that you don't load packages
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2015-12-09T19:49:13Z axion: that is correct
2015-12-09T19:49:22Z prxq: cbd_: you wanted to load a library, probably...
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2015-12-09T19:49:43Z cbd_: All the same, I'm on debian, I've installed clisp and cl-cffi and I don't know how to use the functions it provides
2015-12-09T19:50:28Z axion: what are you trying to load?
2015-12-09T19:50:32Z cbd_: cffi
2015-12-09T19:50:39Z axion: quicklisp it
2015-12-09T19:50:48Z prxq: cbd_: well.... that way lie bad experiences.
2015-12-09T19:51:18Z cbd_: Really? it's documentation makes it sound like the cat's meow
2015-12-09T19:51:25Z prxq: cbd_: better: uninstall the debian packages, install sbcl from upstream, and then use quicklisp to load the libs you want to use.
2015-12-09T19:51:47Z cbd_: Do I have to use sbcl or can I keep using clisp?
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2015-12-09T19:52:05Z prxq: debian packaging of lisp stuff is somewhat disappointing. And clisp is somewhat oldish.
2015-12-09T19:52:15Z axion: you can use clisp, but bear in mind, SBCL is much more performant
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2015-12-09T19:52:56Z cbd_: I understand it is opinion, but is it safe to call SBCL the dominant common lisp implementation on linux?
2015-12-09T19:53:02Z prxq: ..and the ffi is much saner.
2015-12-09T19:53:07Z prxq: cbd_: fairly safe.
2015-12-09T19:53:21Z prxq: the ffi from sbcl is much saner, I mean.
2015-12-09T19:55:04Z phoe_krk: What would be the dominant CL implementation on Windows, then?
2015-12-09T19:55:24Z axion: more than likely, Clozure CL
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2015-12-09T19:58:15Z prxq: or allegro (among all including open source and non-open source)
2015-12-09T19:58:26Z dim: well sbcl runs on windows too
2015-12-09T19:58:38Z axion: it does, albeit with a big fat warning
2015-12-09T19:58:50Z cbd_: What is the general opinion of lispworks?
2015-12-09T19:59:01Z dim: I've been encouraged to go past this warning
2015-12-09T19:59:25Z synchromesh: cbd_: I maintain a commercial Lisp app on Windows written in LispWorks, it's great.
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2015-12-09T20:00:02Z prxq: Warning: your operating system is crud. [C]ontinue [A]bort [R]etry
2015-12-09T20:00:02Z mordocai: dim: What warning is printed when you use SBCL on windows?
2015-12-09T20:00:24Z synchromesh: If "dominant" is defined as "earns the most revenue" then LispWorks & Allegro would win hands down, I suspect.
2015-12-09T20:01:31Z axion: mordocai: something along the lines of being experimental and the developers not having any interest in making it any more stable on Windows.
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2015-12-09T20:03:04Z mordocai: Meh, revenue. Who has time for that?
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2015-12-09T20:03:50Z synchromesh: (equalp *time* *money*) => T
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2015-12-09T20:13:10Z cbd_: Hey guys, I got it to work in sbcl, thanks a bunch
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2015-12-09T20:14:28Z phoe_krk: axion: I call BS on no developer interest
2015-12-09T20:14:35Z phoe_krk: "WARNING: the Windows port is fragile, particularly for multithreaded code.  Unfortunately, the development team currently lacks the time and resources this platform demands."
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2015-12-09T20:18:24Z mordocai: I'm with dim that I have -heard- that windows works perfectly fine(including with threads). They just aren't guaranteeing anything. I don't use windows myself so *shrug*.
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2015-12-09T20:19:17Z nyef: Most of the SBCL developers don't use windows either, hence the current situation.
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2015-12-09T20:22:25Z Xach: I have had a pretty big headache with a network thing on sbcl/windows
2015-12-09T20:22:35Z Xach: something is getting stuck in a refill buffer routine
2015-12-09T20:22:35Z phoe_krk: Xach: tell me, what is it?
2015-12-09T20:22:44Z Xach: see above
2015-12-09T20:22:50Z phoe_krk: hm
2015-12-09T20:22:58Z phoe_krk: #sbcl might help, that's beyond my level of comprehension
2015-12-09T20:23:04Z phoe_krk: mordocai: I've been threading a little bit, I see nothing wrong
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2015-12-09T20:23:51Z DeadTrickster: I'm looking for something like java or .net List. where ordering preserved and underlying storage shrinks/grows without disturbing me
2015-12-09T20:24:09Z DeadTrickster: looked at cliki found nothing
2015-12-09T20:24:21Z dim: synchromesh: the evaluation version of LW doesn't even allow to quickload pgloader, so I can't have an opinion on it...
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2015-12-09T20:25:19Z dim: DeadTrickster: sounds like a plain list? see push/pop/list/list* and friends, maybe cons if you need to get down to that level
2015-12-09T20:25:21Z mood: DeadTrickster: A normal CL list has those properties. You could also look at vector-push-extend.
2015-12-09T20:25:57Z DeadTrickster: push pop works on head isn't it?
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2015-12-09T20:26:22Z DeadTrickster: I want insertions at given index
2015-12-09T20:26:26Z DeadTrickster: as well as deletions
2015-12-09T20:26:45Z dim: see nth and setf or rplacd
2015-12-09T20:27:02Z DeadTrickster: ok and N(1) access )
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2015-12-09T20:27:15Z DeadTrickster: why you can't read my mind ?
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2015-12-09T20:27:29Z dim: that's an array or a vector then, so vector-push-extend for extending it
2015-12-09T20:27:53Z DeadTrickster: yes and here we are back to my question
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2015-12-09T20:28:51Z dim: please define "without disturbing me" then
2015-12-09T20:29:36Z DeadTrickster: i.e. hides fill pointer or better replaces underlying vector with new one
2015-12-09T20:29:39Z DeadTrickster: so it can be simple
2015-12-09T20:29:54Z DeadTrickster: and handles shrinkage to conserver memory
2015-12-09T20:30:20Z prxq: DeadTrickster: what is that called in java?
2015-12-09T20:30:30Z jasom: Java List does not have N(1) access
2015-12-09T20:30:47Z DeadTrickster: well I'm not 100% sure about java. but in .net they call this List
2015-12-09T20:32:01Z jasom: DeadTrickster: vectors with fill pointers should behave about like .net ArrayList
2015-12-09T20:32:01Z DeadTrickster: so setting / removing can possible take longer than O(1) if underlying storage needs housekeeping
2015-12-09T20:32:11Z DeadTrickster: but they are not simple
2015-12-09T20:32:24Z DeadTrickster: and still I have to implement shrink/grow logic
2015-12-09T20:32:32Z jasom: not grow, just shrink
2015-12-09T20:32:39Z DeadTrickster: why?
2015-12-09T20:32:43Z jasom: vector-push-extend will add to the end and grow if needed automatically for you
2015-12-09T20:33:12Z DeadTrickster: well again, this wouldn't simple-vector
2015-12-09T20:33:18Z DeadTrickster: so no cas for me
2015-12-09T20:33:25Z jasom: cas?
2015-12-09T20:33:30Z mood: It's important to note that at least Java's ArrayList won't shrink the underlying array either
2015-12-09T20:33:31Z DeadTrickster: compare-and-swap
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2015-12-09T20:34:17Z DeadTrickster: so looks like I'll write it myself
2015-12-09T20:34:24Z DeadTrickster: lets call it array-list )
2015-12-09T20:34:27Z mordocai: Insert is I think the main legitimate thing missing from vector from my point of view.
2015-12-09T20:34:38Z mordocai: vector-insert-extend I guess
2015-12-09T20:34:46Z DeadTrickster: yep
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2015-12-09T20:34:52Z jasom: DeadTrickster: I'm looking at the .net List documentation and not seeing compare-and-swap
2015-12-09T20:34:53Z DeadTrickster: and again
2015-12-09T20:34:55Z DeadTrickster: no shrinking
2015-12-09T20:34:59Z DeadTrickster: not simple-vector
2015-12-09T20:35:09Z mordocai: DeadTrickster: The things you reference also don't shrink.
2015-12-09T20:35:32Z DeadTrickster: jasom, not surprising
2015-12-09T20:36:28Z foom: it's unfortunate that a resizeable vector in sbcl has so much worse performance than a simple-vector.
2015-12-09T20:36:39Z prxq: that .net list docs look weird. No complexity estimates for things like 'insert'
2015-12-09T20:36:56Z jasom: prxq: I'm pretty sure that insert is O(n) on that
2015-12-09T20:37:11Z prxq: me too, but it doesn't say.
2015-12-09T20:37:28Z jasom: probably so they can change the implementation
2015-12-09T20:37:50Z prxq: well, the docs say that that thing is implemented on an array
2015-12-09T20:37:58Z jasom: oh, so that's just stupid then
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2015-12-09T20:38:24Z jasom: DeadTrickster: why do you want a simple-vector?
2015-12-09T20:38:39Z DeadTrickster: for compare-and-swap as I probably said
2015-12-09T20:39:11Z jasom: DeadTrickster: where are you getting compare-and-swap from?
2015-12-09T20:39:18Z DeadTrickster: sbcl
2015-12-09T20:39:27Z DeadTrickster: ccl too
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2015-12-09T20:40:35Z mood: prxq: jasom: The .NET List.insert documentation, at least the one I'm looking at, does say "This method is an O(n) operation, where n is Count."
2015-12-09T20:40:35Z jasom: ah, I must have missed sbcl adding that
2015-12-09T20:40:52Z jasom: it works on: car, cdr, first, rest, svref, symbol-plist, symbol-value, svref, slot-value sb-mop:standard-instance-access, sb-mop:funcallable-standard-instance-access,
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2015-12-09T20:41:14Z jasom: so it works on both svref *and* svref :)
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2015-12-09T20:42:15Z prxq: mood: ah, it's in the docs of the insert function. I thought it would be on the List page.
2015-12-09T20:42:46Z prxq: fun thing, though. It's an array, and it has like a hundred+ methods.
2015-12-09T20:42:48Z jasom: so it's interesting that you can't do a CAS on specialized arrays in sbcl
2015-12-09T20:43:24Z jasom: prxq: we have a bunch too: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_arrays.htm
2015-12-09T20:43:28Z DeadTrickster: why you all reading docs?
2015-12-09T20:43:29Z DeadTrickster: https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr/blob/master/src/mscorlib/src/System/Collections/Generic/List.cs
2015-12-09T20:43:48Z jasom: DeadTrickster: that's just the implementation, not the specification.  The implementation might be wrong :P
2015-12-09T20:43:58Z DeadTrickster: agree )
2015-12-09T20:44:27Z prxq: jasom: that's like, less than 50 :-)
2015-12-09T20:45:09Z jasom: prxq: and all sequence operations will work too
2015-12-09T20:45:18Z jasom: prxq: plus all of chapter 4 of Alexandria
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2015-12-09T20:45:32Z prxq: ok, ok, ok :)
2015-12-09T20:45:47Z jasom: they just aren't all documented in the same place in Lisp, since you don't have to chain your algorithms to your classes in lisp
2015-12-09T20:45:51Z DeadTrickster: ok how to remove nth element form our beloved cons-based list?
2015-12-09T20:46:11Z DeadTrickster: using casable "places"
2015-12-09T20:46:50Z jasom: DeadTrickster: if n is zero, use pop (there's an atomic pop already implemented)
2015-12-09T20:46:51Z DeadTrickster: not exactly returning eq list
2015-12-09T20:46:53Z DeadTrickster: it can be new
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2015-12-09T20:47:10Z DeadTrickster: well I need this operation: Remove (item)
2015-12-09T20:47:19Z DeadTrickster: so first I have to find it (or its index)
2015-12-09T20:47:20Z jasom: othrewise (cdr (nthcdr (1- n) list))
2015-12-09T20:47:55Z prxq: DeadTrickster: remove is in the cl docs
2015-12-09T20:48:00Z DeadTrickster: but it is expected that Add/Remove will be much less common than reading or iterating
2015-12-09T20:48:08Z DeadTrickster: prxq, is it casable?
2015-12-09T20:48:37Z jasom: DeadTrickster: and you can use position to find the position, but of course this is all non-thread-safe
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2015-12-09T20:48:49Z jasom: even though it only gives you CASable places
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2015-12-09T20:49:02Z DeadTrickster: jasom, exctly that is why I'll pure functional
2015-12-09T20:49:09Z DeadTrickster: and will have slot with "lis"
2015-12-09T20:49:12Z DeadTrickster: "list"
2015-12-09T20:49:18Z DeadTrickster: because slot-value is casable
2015-12-09T20:49:33Z DeadTrickster: so entire list going to be replaced
2015-12-09T20:50:00Z jasom: oh, that's easy then; just use remove
2015-12-09T20:50:05Z jasom: it's pure functional
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2015-12-09T20:50:14Z DeadTrickster: yep
2015-12-09T20:50:35Z jasom: and you *can* prepend in O(1) time with lists if you will never mutate the lists
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2015-12-09T20:51:07Z DeadTrickster: aha because I don't event need O(1) access to arbitrary item
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2015-12-09T20:51:17Z DeadTrickster: I just want to iterate
2015-12-09T20:52:26Z jasom: lists are much better than vectors for pure-functional code for this reason; of course in the past 50 years people have come up with alternatives to lists for pure-functional code, and you may be able to find such a library for lisp
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2015-12-09T20:53:30Z jasom: put if you just want O(1) push and pop and O(n) iterate, lists are fine
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2015-12-09T20:54:10Z jasom: removing from the middle is asymptotically the same as from an array
2015-12-09T20:54:32Z jasom: just copy the first N-1 elements and then append the cdr of the element you are removing
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2015-12-09T20:56:06Z DeadTrickster: yeah you right, overall I'm execting all this CAS stuff to be a great adventure
2015-12-09T20:56:27Z DeadTrickster: I can simple use mutexes here but decided to try CAS
2015-12-09T20:56:49Z DeadTrickster: simply
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2015-12-09T21:38:48Z dimitrian: hello guys!
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2015-12-09T21:44:34Z dimitrian: how do you think, is it worth it to start a project of a new realiable and fast HTTP server in Common Lisp, or it will be doomed to fail because of Apache/NGINX?
2015-12-09T21:46:07Z dimitrian: I want implement something great and want to find an interesting idea. :)
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2015-12-09T21:52:26Z eudoxia: lisp is not going to be a problem
2015-12-09T21:52:40Z eudoxia: whatever the case you will likely use nginx as a reverse proxy for the app server
2015-12-09T21:53:10Z mordocai: eudoxia: I'm pretty sure dimitrian is wanting to make a nginx/apache replacement not an app server
2015-12-09T21:53:18Z eudoxia: oh
2015-12-09T21:53:35Z eudoxia: well in that case
2015-12-09T21:53:41Z dimitrian: modocai: yes, exactly
2015-12-09T21:53:45Z eudoxia: what i'd do is take Woo for the actual server code
2015-12-09T21:54:00Z dimitrian: eudoxia: no, I want to create a new!
2015-12-09T21:54:03Z eudoxia: and write some useful modules on top of it
2015-12-09T21:54:07Z mordocai: Yeah, my comment was going to be that I thought it existed already but didn't remember the name.
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2015-12-09T21:54:31Z eudoxia: dimitrian: ok, sure, but take a look at this https://github.com/fukamachi/woo
2015-12-09T21:55:04Z mordocai: dimitrian: Either way, your market share is likely to be near zero due to apache/nginx unless yours has some substantial advantages. Being in lisp won't count as an advantage.
2015-12-09T21:55:12Z mordocai: Doesn't mean it won't be fun to do though
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2015-12-09T21:56:17Z dimitrian: Have you guys any good ideas what kind of software is actual to be implemented?
2015-12-09T21:56:17Z synchromesh: dimitrian: teepeedee2 is the other example that comes to mind (after Woo): http://john.freml.in/teepeedee2-c10k
2015-12-09T21:56:19Z dlowe: dimitrian: have you looked at the existing HTTP server implementation?
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2015-12-09T21:56:37Z dlowe: oh, I'm late to the conversation
2015-12-09T21:56:46Z dimitrian: dlowe: do you mean Woo?
2015-12-09T21:57:07Z dlowe: I was thinking more of Hunchentoot and derivatives
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2015-12-09T21:57:44Z dlowe: There's a niche for a HTTP2 library
2015-12-09T21:58:00Z mood: dimitrian: Something you might be interested in: http://www.aosabook.org/en/nginx.html
2015-12-09T21:58:03Z dimitrian: dlowe: Hunchentoot is great, but: 1) it uses CLOS, so, it can be faster 2) it is a toolkit rather than complete solution like NGINX
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2015-12-09T21:59:17Z dimitrian: I want to write an useful software as a complete solution and trying to find an idea what to write :)
2015-12-09T21:59:38Z dimitrian: And use Common Lisp as a primary lang.
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2015-12-09T22:00:41Z mordocai: I would probably use a common lisp nginx alternative if it had similar performance on my personal website. Wouldn't use it for work though.
2015-12-09T22:00:46Z dimitrian: synchromesh: I don't want to contribute to existing libraries (sorry). I want to start a new project
2015-12-09T22:01:04Z dlowe: Write an HTTP2 server.
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2015-12-09T22:01:28Z synchromesh: dimitrian: I wasn't suggesting you contribute, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of the prior art.
2015-12-09T22:01:43Z dimitrian: synchromesh: I see.
2015-12-09T22:01:52Z mordocai: dimitrian: Just FYI, that attitude is WAY too prevalent in open source in general and the lisp community in particular. You don't have to contribute to be able to build up on top of someone else's work.
2015-12-09T22:02:10Z mordocai: Just fork it if you don't want to deal with other people's idea for future direction
2015-12-09T22:02:22Z synchromesh: dimitrian: You could write a CL server for Google's new gRPC framework, built on HTTP/2: http://www.grpc.io/
2015-12-09T22:03:04Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus
2015-12-09T22:03:18Z synchromesh: dimitrian: "Standing on the shoulders of giants" is always the way to go, where possible. Particularly if you want people to actually adopt your work...
2015-12-09T22:03:27Z pjb: minion: memo for warweasle: of course, there's nsubstitutef and substitutef: (let ((l (list 1 2 3))) (nsubstitutef l 0 2) l) #| --> (1 0 3) |#
2015-12-09T22:03:27Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell warweasle when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-12-09T22:04:21Z dimitrian: synchromesh: yes, but it's Google...
2015-12-09T22:04:41Z dimitrian: synchromesh: I don't know why, but I didn't like it...
2015-12-09T22:05:00Z dimitrian: Could anybody know why I don't like Google?
2015-12-09T22:05:07Z dimitrian: Does
2015-12-09T22:05:23Z mordocai not sure if troll.
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2015-12-09T22:05:42Z dlowe: Probably because they have the largest Common Lisp deployment in the world.
2015-12-09T22:05:45Z eudoxia: synchromesh: yes, that's why I suggested taking Woo and writing Nginx's functionality on top of it
2015-12-09T22:05:53Z synchromesh: dimitrian: You don't have to like them in order to stand on their shoulders...
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2015-12-09T22:06:13Z dimitrian: synchromesh: I see you.
2015-12-09T22:06:29Z synchromesh: dimitrian: I never liked Microsoft much while I was making a living writing Windows C++ apps.
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2015-12-09T22:08:32Z dimitrian: eudoxia: Woo is using libev and trying to be a cross-implementation. I don't want to use libev/libuv/libevent or whatever. I just want to use SBCL and epoll()/kqueue(), or, even, write my own select() in Lisp.
2015-12-09T22:08:59Z eudoxia: sure whatever i recommend against it because it's too much work
2015-12-09T22:09:06Z synchromesh: dimitrian: "Don't re-invent the wheel" is another useful maxim. :)
2015-12-09T22:09:22Z dimitrian: :(
2015-12-09T22:09:26Z eudoxia: be lazy like a fox
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2015-12-09T22:09:30Z pjb: phoe_krk: notice that since this warning has been written, 2 or 3 different MS-Windows versions have been released.  It was probably a good idea not to invest anything on them.  Let's way for the definite versionof MS-Windows…
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2015-12-09T22:09:41Z mood: dimitrian: If you really want to do this, do it, but don't go in with the expectation that it will actually be used.
2015-12-09T22:09:56Z mood: Expecting success is generally not a good way to achieve it.
2015-12-09T22:10:07Z pjb: Yeah, I'm the type to wait for the death of an artist, and to buy the complete works to read/listen/watch in a single session.
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2015-12-09T22:11:43Z dimitrian: Okay. You guys suggest to not reinvent the wheel.
2015-12-09T22:11:52Z Xach_: dimitrian: i did it your way. it was fun. go for it!
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2015-12-09T22:12:43Z mood: Building this could be a great way to learn things, so if you're motivated, go for it
2015-12-09T22:12:45Z dimitrian: But, guys, I don't want to write a stupid binding to C libraries! I want to create a completely new software in Lisp.
2015-12-09T22:13:03Z pjb: dimitrian: I totally support this choice.
2015-12-09T22:13:09Z pjb: go for it!
2015-12-09T22:13:11Z synchromesh: dimitrian: Don't let us put you off!
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2015-12-09T22:14:37Z Xach_: dimitrian: that's what i like. go for it! nobody can stop you if you really want to do it.
2015-12-09T22:15:11Z pjb: dimitrian: you can use http://duckduckgo.com
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2015-12-09T22:17:20Z dimitrian: Xach_: the only stop factor why I doubt (and even fear, to be honest) to start a new project is f**king money and fear to being poor.
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2015-12-09T22:22:27Z mordocai: dimitrian: Yeah, the main thing is don't think this is going to make you rich/be used by millions. Have a day job.
2015-12-09T22:24:17Z synchromesh: dimitrian: Yes, "writing cool Lisp software" and "making money" are two completely orthogonal problems.
2015-12-09T22:24:46Z dimitrian: unfortunately :(
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2015-12-09T22:26:51Z dimitrian: But I believe that Lisp can be used to make an useful complete solution which are more reliable and smart than software in other languages.
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2015-12-09T22:29:40Z dimitrian: And the only way to write a "cool Lisp software" and "make money" is to write a really useful software for the end user rather than for Lispers only.
2015-12-09T22:29:46Z dimitrian: I think so.
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2015-12-09T22:32:09Z synchromesh: dimitrian: Can't argue with that, I'm trying to do that myself. :)
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2015-12-09T22:35:11Z nyef: Nothing unfortunate about "cool Lisp software" and "making money" being orthogonal. It's a far, FAR better scenario than them being anti-correlated.
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2015-12-09T22:40:34Z axion: Xach_: did you see my message?
2015-12-09T22:40:46Z dimitrian: nyef: do you have a good idea what software to implement in Lisp?
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2015-12-09T22:41:17Z dimitrian: nyef: I have an idea crisis :(
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2015-12-09T22:41:42Z dimitrian: Not sure what to create.
2015-12-09T22:41:43Z pjb: dimitrian: smartphones will be out in 5 years (studies say).  Write a program to replace smartphones.
2015-12-09T22:41:54Z nyef: Start by figuring out what software to implement, then worry about the Lisp bit.
2015-12-09T22:42:30Z dimitrian: nyef: I agree.
2015-12-09T22:43:13Z nyef: Before you start, question your need to implement software.
2015-12-09T22:43:16Z dimitrian: pjb: how can hardware (smartphones) can be replaced by software?
2015-12-09T22:43:40Z pjb: dimitrian: for example, there's hardware everywhere, screens, computers. When a Rapsberry Zero costs $5…
2015-12-09T22:43:43Z nyef: How can hardware be replaced by software? Simulation and virtualization, of course! d-:
2015-12-09T22:43:52Z Bicyclidine: probably studies on that too. useful things, studies
2015-12-09T22:44:23Z pjb: dimitrian: so you could just move the software and the display and the sensors, and whatever around the user, without a need for a unique centralized smartphone.
2015-12-09T22:45:01Z pjb: dimitrian: you can just assume connectivity (network availability), and to know where the I/O and sensor devices are located and where the persons/users are located.
2015-12-09T22:45:55Z dimitrian: pjb: it seems to me that you're talking about the "Internet of Things" concept
2015-12-09T22:46:01Z pjb: If you know that a user is in front of a screen, and you can "hear" him, then you can take a vocal command, and display output on that screen.  When you detect the user moves and is now in front of another screen, you just move the output to that other screen.
2015-12-09T22:46:09Z pjb: If you want to call it like that.
2015-12-09T22:46:47Z pjb: Once you can localize everybody and every I/O device, you can in effect delocalize entirely the computing environment.
2015-12-09T22:47:11Z dimitrian: pjb: No, I don't want to participate in creation of system of the total control.
2015-12-09T22:47:40Z pjb: Then you will be totally controlled by those who write it in switf or java, instead of those who write it in lisp…
2015-12-09T22:48:13Z Bicyclidine: if we had good ideas we'd write them ourselves. setting out just to make money isn't, like, the best motivation, you know?
2015-12-09T22:48:15Z dimitrian: pjb: it doesn't matter what lang to use to create such a thing.
2015-12-09T22:48:20Z pjb: If you wrote it  in lisp yourself, you could include zero-knowledge protocols, to ensure the privacy of people.
2015-12-09T22:49:15Z dimitrian: IoT is not a useful software. I believe it's evil. Sorry for that.
2015-12-09T22:49:27Z pjb: C'est vous qui voyez.
2015-12-09T22:50:52Z Bicyclidine: http://tiffzhang.com/startup/?s=70973392766 there's so many possibilities
2015-12-09T22:51:57Z mordocai: Bicyclidine: nice, I hadn't seen that before.
2015-12-09T22:52:01Z dimitrian: Bicyclidine: hehe :)
2015-12-09T22:52:07Z dimitrian: thanks!
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2015-12-09T22:54:18Z Bicyclidine: but you know what i mean, right? fitzgerald wasn't like "i'm going to write the great american novel", he was like "i'm going to write this novel about part of society in the 20s"
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2015-12-09T22:56:17Z dimitrian: bye guys! thank you all! cu!!
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2015-12-09T22:57:35Z axion: sigh, been greping sly's source for 2 hours trying to find where a feature is implemented so i can turn it off
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2015-12-09T22:59:40Z axion: apparentl abbreviating REPL return values is well-hidden
2015-12-09T22:59:56Z Bicyclidine: abbreviating how?
2015-12-09T23:00:08Z mordocai: ...
2015-12-09T23:00:24Z axion: like a multiline value is ellipsis-ized
2015-12-09T23:00:44Z Bicyclidine: i mean, you know it's not *print-length* or anything, right?
2015-12-09T23:00:56Z attila_lendvai: axion: call/truncated-output-to-string ?
2015-12-09T23:01:07Z axion: Bicyclidine: positive
2015-12-09T23:01:45Z axion: it's quite annoying working with a 4x4 matrix lib that is pretty-printed into rows, only being able to see the first row
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2015-12-09T23:33:00Z spyrosoft: Has anyone else using Hunchentoot run into issues with the error-template-directory?
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2015-12-09T23:35:41Z spyrosoft: I have a 404.html, but I can't figure out how to make Hunchentoot use it.
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2015-12-09T23:37:42Z spyrosoft: (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor :document-root "." :error-template-directory "path/to/error/template/directory/" :port 8080))
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2015-12-09T23:38:37Z axion: what i do is this, though probably not the best way
2015-12-09T23:39:21Z axion: first modify the dispatch table like this: (setf (cdr (last *dispatch-table*)) (cons '404-dispatcher nil))
2015-12-09T23:40:54Z axion: and add: (defun 404-dispatcher (request) 'my-custom-404)
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2015-12-09T23:46:14Z spyrosoft: Thanks axion.
2015-12-09T23:46:17Z axion: for my purposes, 'my-custom-404 is just a function with (redirect "/"), though it can be anything
2015-12-09T23:46:44Z spyrosoft: This solves another problem I had.
2015-12-09T23:46:46Z axion: i think i ran into your problem years ago...i havent touched my hunchentoot code in a long time, so i may be missing something else
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2015-12-10T00:03:42Z jasom: check my work; why does this return 1: (let ((ht (make-hash-table :test #'equal)) (pair (cons 0 0))) (setf (Gethash pair ht) t (cdr pair) 1 (gethash pair ht) t) (hash-table-count ht))
2015-12-10T00:04:13Z jasom: hmm it returns 2 on ccl; is this possible an sbcl bug?
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2015-12-10T00:04:39Z nyef: The bug is that you're mutating your hash keys.
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2015-12-10T00:06:32Z jasom: ah, didn't know that was disallowed
2015-12-10T00:06:41Z nyef: And now you do. (-:
2015-12-10T00:06:51Z jasom: yup
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2015-12-10T00:08:07Z jasom: it's a reasonable limitation.  copy-list to the rescue
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2015-12-10T03:52:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-12-10T04:02:47Z beach: So, yesterday I wasted a few hours because of my bad memory.  My idea was to write an incremental reader with reified states and stack so that the state of the reader could be stored in order to restart it in that state later.  The ultimate purpose being to use a version of the reader for parsing an editor buffer.
2015-12-10T04:03:07Z beach: However, after thinking about how to restart it, I vaguely remembered having solve this problem before.
2015-12-10T04:05:06Z beach: Looking in the directory of Second Climacs, I figured out that I had already solved the problem using an ordinary reader and a Gray stream into the buffer.
2015-12-10T04:05:07Z beach: I simply store results of calls to READ with beginning and end buffer position.  When a READ is asked for at a position that has the result stored, instead of doing the READ, it returns what was stored and skips the Gray stream to the end of the expression.
2015-12-10T04:06:02Z Zhivago: Sounds fragile under insertion.
2015-12-10T04:06:42Z beach: I have that figured out already.  It removes caches for expressions that span insertion points.
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2015-12-10T06:34:59Z beach: Hmm, I have received two separate emails from two different senders, urging me to add a link to this site: http://wiht.link/common-lisp on my website.
2015-12-10T06:35:00Z beach: My website is accessible through three different domain names, and the two email messages mentioned different domain names.  The messages are so similar that it makes me think they have been automatically generated.  Does anyone understand what is going on here?
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2015-12-10T06:39:01Z beach: The contents looks legitimate and informative.  So is it just that they want to increase Google hit count?
2015-12-10T06:39:19Z pjb: beach: yes, this is spam.
2015-12-10T06:39:43Z pjb: They're trying to make you build their web site directory.
2015-12-10T06:39:59Z beach: Can you elaborate?  How does that work?
2015-12-10T06:42:49Z beach: I am sorry that I am so ignorant when it comes to web technology and economics.
2015-12-10T06:43:59Z pjb: Pierre Desproges explained it very well in this Chronicle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRa0higzII4&index=17&list=PL8F7E79701510590D
2015-12-10T06:44:24Z Bike: i mean, getting linked to increases your pagerank, if nothing else.
2015-12-10T06:44:25Z pjb: Same as Facebook or anything else really.
2015-12-10T06:44:56Z beach: pjb: Thanks.
2015-12-10T06:46:40Z pjb: Well, in the case of wiht.link, it seems that they offers short links and marketing statistics against their learning all your web statistics (and perhaps the possibility of inserting their own advertisements on all the pages you serve).
2015-12-10T06:47:53Z pjb: That's the kind of "problems" that smart people are let to "solve" in our society, instead of living peacefully, developping limitless energy sources and space travel.
2015-12-10T06:49:56Z beach: Bike: I guess I don't understand how much energy it is worth for someone to spend in order to get one more link to his or her web site.  That's what I meant when I said I am ignorant when it comes to web economics.
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2015-12-10T06:50:26Z Bike: spam's cheap
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2015-12-10T06:51:13Z beach: I guess so.  Someone had to put together this Common Lisp information though.  That seems expensive to me.  How many links can they hope for, given the relative lack of popularity of Common Lisp?
2015-12-10T06:52:14Z beach: Anyway, thanks to both of you for confirming that there is something behind these emails other than the desire to spread information about Common Lisp.
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2015-12-10T06:52:47Z beach: Oops.  Time to get to work!
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2015-12-10T06:56:07Z Bike: they could just send that to every site ever linked in the logs of this channel. who knows.
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2015-12-10T07:11:32Z pjb: minion: memo for beach: it's not specific to CL or anything.  They have a program that gets a list of domain name with addresses from the whois databases. Then the program fetches pages from the web site at that domain, extracts keywords, and generate an email to entice you to use their "service".
2015-12-10T07:11:32Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-12-10T10:26:37Z SAL9000: I'm implementing a multi-threaded web-scraper (Drakma, lparallel); how could I limit the number of concurrent requests to a given server (domain name)?
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2015-12-10T10:46:35Z InvalidCo: SAL9000: I'm not familiar with lparallel but I guess I would create a channel per domain name
2015-12-10T10:47:13Z SAL9000: I'd like to use futures rather than tasks where possible
2015-12-10T10:47:13Z InvalidCo: there seems to be a :fixed-capacity-argument which looks like it would do what you want
2015-12-10T10:49:23Z InvalidCo: have the future then enqueue the task and wait for the result?
2015-12-10T10:50:05Z SAL9000: Should I be worrying about task re-ordering in channels?
2015-12-10T10:50:30Z InvalidCo: do you have futures depending on each other in the same channel?
2015-12-10T10:50:53Z SAL9000: as in circular dependency?
2015-12-10T10:51:00Z InvalidCo: that too
2015-12-10T10:51:22Z SAL9000: I won't have circular dependency, but my async tasks will create more tasks
2015-12-10T10:51:27Z InvalidCo: I guess the sane thing to do here would be to put all your network i/o code in the task and your logic in the future
2015-12-10T10:51:40Z InvalidCo: and not have the task create more tasks, just the future
2015-12-10T10:52:22Z SAL9000: Is there any way I could hook into Drakma to implement this kind of behaviour?
2015-12-10T10:52:40Z SAL9000: I'd like to also re-use connections where possible, if that's possible
2015-12-10T10:53:34Z SAL9000: the thing is that while each initial request goes to the same server (and thus should be serialized), HTTP redirects may go to other servers which should then be processed in parallel -- drakma doesn't return until the redirects have been processed.
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2015-12-10T10:56:05Z InvalidCo: seems like drakma:http-request takes a :redirect nil
2015-12-10T10:57:06Z InvalidCo: I would try what happens with that and see if it's simple enough to write your own logic to enqueue/promise a new request based on the next url
2015-12-10T10:57:39Z SAL9000: Makes sense. What happens to SPECIAL variables when multiple threads are about? I'd like to make the "connection cache" global.
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2015-12-10T10:58:26Z InvalidCo: try it out, see what happens
2015-12-10T10:59:51Z InvalidCo: often times I can't be bothered with documentation so I just either open the source or try throwing stuff at the repl
2015-12-10T11:02:53Z loke: SAL9000: Depends on the implementation
2015-12-10T11:02:59Z loke: but most implementations do the same thing
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2015-12-10T11:06:34Z Alfr: Hello. I have a problem with sbcl, threads and CommonQT: I wrote an event-loop, which sometimes has to be interrupted from a other thread. That worked quite well until I added a gui using CommonQt. In particular, after calling qt:make-qapplication it seems that sb-thread:interrupt-thread doesn't work anymore. Example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/166235
2015-12-10T11:07:45Z Alfr: Does someone have an idea what happens there and maybe how to fix this? :)
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2015-12-10T11:15:02Z InvalidCo: gui toolkits seldom play nice with multiple threads
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2015-12-10T11:19:13Z Alfr: Guess I found that out the hard way.
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2015-12-10T11:20:20Z InvalidCo: commonqt seems to use bordeaux-threads
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2015-12-10T11:26:12Z Alfr: I did too, but for a simple example I tried to narrow it down as much as possible and ended up with qt:make-qapplication and sb-thread:interrupt-thread .
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2015-12-10T11:34:18Z InvalidCo: I can't trace the magic in make-qapplication
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2015-12-10T11:34:29Z InvalidCo: it may very well be in the cpp-side of things
2015-12-10T11:35:41Z InvalidCo: qt has its own thread implementation, which you might use if commonqt supports it
2015-12-10T11:36:01Z InvalidCo: have you tried putting the make-qapplication before the threads are instantiated?
2015-12-10T11:37:08Z SAL9000: Is there a portable reader-writer-lock package available?
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2015-12-10T11:41:12Z Alfr: InvalidCo, yes that's actually how it initially was: start the network event-loop and then start the gui.
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2015-12-10T13:32:24Z flip214: clhs defstruct
2015-12-10T13:32:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm
2015-12-10T13:32:29Z flip214: specbot: merci
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2015-12-10T14:00:02Z n2kra: is http://paste.lisp.org/new also used in #ecl? way to tag ecl posts ?
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2015-12-10T14:01:43Z Xach_: n2kra: it does not matter. you can just use it.
2015-12-10T14:02:30Z n2kra: Hmmm, http://paste.lisp.org/channels
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2015-12-10T14:03:10Z Xach_: n2kra: it used to announce pastes. now it doesn't. channels don't matter.
2015-12-10T14:04:43Z pjb: You have to paste the url yourself.
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2015-12-10T14:10:33Z drmeister: Does anyone recommend a good Common Lisp documentation system.  I'm looking at this: http://www.cliki.net/documentation%20tool
2015-12-10T14:14:17Z z0d: Symbolics Concordia
2015-12-10T14:14:19Z z0d hides
2015-12-10T14:14:32Z Xach_: drmeister: http://commondoc.github.io/codex/ is something new. i haven't tried it though.
2015-12-10T14:14:36Z n2kra Snort
2015-12-10T14:16:46Z n2kra the time I almost trade a PDP-11/20 (to show at DEC 20th anniversary) for a 3600
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2015-12-10T14:51:21Z Xof: Xach_: for release planning, what are your quicklisp plans for this month?
2015-12-10T14:51:48Z Xach_: Xof: i hope to have something out in the next few days. things are shaping up. sunday is a candidate.
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2015-12-10T14:53:42Z Xof: Xach_: this is presumably to be tested with sbcl-1.3.1 rather than with our HEAD?
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2015-12-10T14:54:01Z Xof: (I'm thinking about how to do SBCL release over this seasonal period)
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2015-12-10T14:54:47Z Xach_: Xof: yes
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2015-12-10T14:57:07Z Xof: so maybe it makes sense for us not to release this month... so that people can enjoy their sbcl-1.3.1/QL stability for six weeks or so :-)
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2015-12-10T15:47:43Z sebboh: Greetings. I'm making my own module for stumpwm! It's an exercise to learn about stump and clx.  Anyway, I'm not there yet, because I'm having trouble reading a value out of a slot in a CLOS object.
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2015-12-10T15:49:22Z sebboh: I can call (current-screen) and get a clos object of type screen.  It has an ID.  Because, this line is in the defclass for screen: (id :initform nil :accessor screen-id)
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2015-12-10T15:51:07Z sebboh: I want to (let ...) a variable of my own to store the ID number from that screen object. Here's what I got so far... (let ((screen-number (screen-id (current-screen)))) ....here I attempt to use screen-number for some purpose...)
2015-12-10T15:52:12Z sebboh: What am I doing wrong?  Isn't screen-id some dynamically created function or macro or "method" that I can call at this time, pass it a screen object, and get the value from the slot named id?
2015-12-10T15:53:05Z Zhivago: Why do you believe that you're doing something wrong?
2015-12-10T15:53:47Z sebboh: Oh, I should have mentioned that. :) undefined function: SCREEN-ID during compilation.
2015-12-10T15:54:07Z pjb: sebboh: (apropos "SCREEN-ID")
2015-12-10T15:54:08Z Zhivago: Did you load the file containing the class definition?
2015-12-10T15:54:27Z Zhivago: Is it exported into the package you're currently using?
2015-12-10T15:54:32Z sebboh: Zhivago, I am in a slime session attached to the currently running stumpwm.
2015-12-10T15:54:51Z Zhivago: Try pjb's suggestion.
2015-12-10T15:54:57Z sebboh: So, I don't know, and I don't know.
2015-12-10T15:54:59Z sebboh: ok
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2015-12-10T15:56:02Z sebboh: COMMON-LISP-USER::SCREEN-ID; SCREEN-ID (fbound); TREEMACS::SCREEN-ID
2015-12-10T15:56:12Z sebboh: treemacs is my package.
2015-12-10T15:56:25Z Zhivago: What is *package*?
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2015-12-10T15:56:54Z n2kra: If stumpwm package does NOT use common-lisp, can their be a stumpwm-user to work in?
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2015-12-10T15:58:22Z sebboh: in my slime repl? stumpwm> ... I just want to draw some lines as I did in junior highschool on a TI-81 and on my commodore 64, and it gwbasic, and logo, and quickbasic.
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2015-12-10T15:59:26Z Zhivago: You're probably using the wrong screen-id function. I guess you could test it by trying to call common-lisp-user::screen-id or treemacs::screen-id instead and seeing which works ...
2015-12-10T15:59:28Z luis`: drmeister: I've never tried codex, but last time I had to use one, I enjoyed atdoc.
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2015-12-10T16:00:50Z sebboh: Zhivago, did I successfully communicate that screen-id is the named accessor for a slot on all stumpwm::screen objects?
2015-12-10T16:01:00Z sebboh: And/or does that change anything?
2015-12-10T16:01:51Z sebboh: (also I'm not sure if stumpwm::screen is the right way to describe the screen class that stumpwm defines in primatives.lisp...)
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2015-12-10T16:03:37Z n2kra: ever use Xnest/Xepher for testing?
2015-12-10T16:06:39Z sebboh: Zhivago: stumpwm::screen-id seems to have done the trick.  New question...  I thought that my ...namespace?  package?  called treemacs was a superset of the stumpwm package, because I did (defpackage #:treemacs (:use #:cl :stumpwm))... So why would I need the stumpwm:: on the call to screen-id?
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2015-12-10T16:14:51Z n2kra: external vs internal symbols CLHS 11.1.2.
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2015-12-10T16:15:20Z sebboh: n2kra, I have used Xnest once long ago, I forget why. But in this case, I'm just running a minimal X environment in a little virtual machine.  Sometimes I c-t ; quit stumpwm when I am concerned that I've mucked up some state somewhere...
2015-12-10T16:16:19Z sebboh: When stumpwm quits, the whole sbcl process goes away and I'm dropped back to a console. startx again and I'm back at the beginning.  ...Invoking quit in a slime repl has the same result. :)
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2015-12-10T16:19:48Z musselboy: do lispers use stuff like jenkins or is that a java spawned demon from hell?
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2015-12-10T16:20:37Z pjb: The later. But you may try to use jenkins.
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2015-12-10T16:20:48Z joshe: lispers only use software written in lisp
2015-12-10T16:20:56Z n2kra: will ECL on Android need some JNI to become an Android intent App
2015-12-10T16:21:01Z joshe: that's why there are so few lispers, the supply of lisp machines is limited
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2015-12-10T16:21:27Z pjb: It'd be easier to rewrite jenkins in lisp, than to try to write the jenkins scripts in  whatever language they have to be written. ;-) (almost).
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2015-12-10T16:21:39Z pjb: n2kra: definitely.
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2015-12-10T16:22:22Z pjb: n2kra: that is: you will use libecl compiled with the ndk and call it from the java app.  Or you will fork an ecl process from the java app, and communicate with it thru sockets or whatever.
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2015-12-10T16:23:58Z pjb: sebboh: you can just add a (in-package :stumpwm) at the beginning of your file, when you use slime.  There's also a M-x slime-sync-package-and-default-directory that could be used if you already have the in-package form.
2015-12-10T16:25:32Z n2kra: (In a VM) eating your own dog food
2015-12-10T16:25:43Z pjb: gn
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2015-12-10T16:29:36Z sebboh: Isn't Travis a CI environment that is more lisp friendly than Jenkins?
2015-12-10T16:29:51Z sebboh: Or does it fill some other niche?
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2015-12-10T16:33:43Z sebboh: It's been three years since I used Jenkins/Hudson on the daily, but basically it was just a hook that kicked off a job when you made a commit, and wrapped the results in some html for the pointy hair boss to look at.  Nonetheless, the exercise of getting your code to work with a CI environment (somebody else's) is well worth it.
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2015-12-10T16:36:27Z mordocai: Speaking of lisp friendly CI, gitlab CI is pretty nice since you just run your own docker workers. It can run anything in docker so you can set up a lisp docker image.
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2015-12-10T16:38:42Z dwchandler: s/since/except/
2015-12-10T16:39:19Z musselboy: lol
2015-12-10T16:40:07Z sebboh: docker and containers in general are one of those things that so many people are so excited about that they must all surely be wrong.  Like football.
2015-12-10T16:40:18Z musselboy: yep
2015-12-10T16:40:20Z musselboy: and obama
2015-12-10T16:40:26Z musselboy: and globla warming
2015-12-10T16:40:40Z mordocai: Meh, I don't particularly care for docker in production but I love it for development stuff
2015-12-10T16:40:51Z musselboy: I am starting to see how bad software really is, software making a lot of money.
2015-12-10T16:41:03Z musselboy: Startign to believe lisp is really better by a lot.
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2015-12-10T16:41:33Z mordocai should write a common lisp LXC manager.
2015-12-10T16:41:38Z mordocai: Not that it is THAT hard
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2015-12-10T16:44:06Z sebboh: musselboy, I'm starting to think that personal computing devices should be single threaded, assuming that single-threadedness is a prereq for deterministic operation...  I can navigate the menus of NES games with my eyes closed (which includes PLAYING the game for some of the cool turned-based games...) but I can't open my browser on a windows or linux computer without getting feedback from the screen in the middle of the
2015-12-10T16:44:06Z sebboh: operation... mostly waiting until the machine is ready to accept the next keypress.
2015-12-10T16:44:26Z musselboy: lol
2015-12-10T16:44:57Z sebboh: makes it impossible to develop muscle memory...
2015-12-10T16:45:20Z musselboy: I am struggling to learn to touch type
2015-12-10T16:45:41Z musselboy: Need muscle memory.
2015-12-10T16:45:48Z sebboh: What about play an instrument or operate a motor vehicle?
2015-12-10T16:45:59Z musselboy: no yes
2015-12-10T16:46:34Z musselboy: How about a web browser in common lisp.
2015-12-10T16:46:37Z n2kra: aren't interrupts non-deterministic?
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2015-12-10T16:50:06Z sebboh: n2kra: yeah but I'm not talking about math here... Just the user experience.  There's one type of interrupt I am familiar with, as a user: ctrl+c (or BREAK, back in the day..) I used to use it when there was obviously some run-away loop going on...  The results of that interrupt were predictable.
2015-12-10T16:51:31Z sebboh: As for interrupts from, for example, a network card...  Screw that, I should have my personal computer's undivided attention until the point in time that I ask it to talk to the network, ie, check email.
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2015-12-10T16:52:20Z sebboh: anyway, I'll get back on #topic...
2015-12-10T16:52:21Z dwchandler: so, CP/M or MS-DOS then?
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2015-12-10T16:52:37Z dwchandler: or Apple ][
2015-12-10T16:52:47Z n2kra: was there a non-irq cpu proven (with ACL) for an aircraft
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2015-12-10T16:55:57Z sebboh: dwchandler: with modern peripherals?  Sure.  Single process, single memory space, single user.  Whatever it takes to get that high that I used to experience before I started typing faster than my PC could keep up... (win95, btw, it was then!)
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2015-12-10T16:56:23Z sebboh: (when the hardware was demonstrably faster than ever)
2015-12-10T16:56:32Z mordocai: Not my experience with win95
2015-12-10T16:56:45Z mordocai: Was slow as hell on my parents' computer
2015-12-10T16:57:17Z n2kra: MPM, DeskView, SOS
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2015-12-10T16:57:40Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-12-10T16:57:41Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: it's not specific to CL or anything.  They have a program that gets a list of domain name with addresses from the whois databases. Then the program fetches pages from the web site at that domain, extracts keywords, and generate an email to entice you to use their "service".
2015-12-10T16:58:00Z beach: pjb: Got it.  Thanks!
2015-12-10T16:58:20Z dwchandler: I have much fewer complaints along those lines since switching to bsd/linux/mac
2015-12-10T16:58:53Z dwchandler: I'm not sure what windows is like these days
2015-12-10T16:58:56Z sebboh: mordocai, my beef was that it wouldn't always place the windows in the same place, and that during start up, some components might become ready before others.  So my habit of clicking blank regions of the screen knowing that a button would soon appear there got broken... Because the UI was no longer something that I could create a working model of in my head--not because of complexity! Because it was no longer deterministic.  Two
2015-12-10T16:58:56Z sebboh: incantations of the same input would result in different outcomes.  No more learning of muscle memory, from win95 on...
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2015-12-10T17:00:03Z dwchandler: that's a UI problem, not necessarily because of interrupts
2015-12-10T17:00:04Z mordocai: sebboh: Ah I see, I read your win95 comment incorrectly.
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2015-12-10T17:00:11Z sebboh: of course I didn't realize how damaging that was until more recently when I watched friends and family get smart phones and learn to use them...
2015-12-10T17:00:46Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-12-10T17:02:07Z nyef: sebboh: The primary thing that breaks being able to type or mouse ahead for me is the web browser. Almost everything else I use on a regular basis allows for muscle-memory macros quite well.
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2015-12-10T17:02:59Z sebboh: dwchandler: I think a lot of it has to do with the input event queues...  I think strict ordering of ... what do you call it when you alt+tab, a context switch?  Strict ordering of context switches and queuing of keyboard/mouse/touch events.. could produce a happier experience, even without going back to square one and limiting yourself to single-threadedness.  But, I'm not sure.  I advocate single-threadedness because I know damn good
2015-12-10T17:02:59Z sebboh: and well that would acheive the result I want--it couldn't not!
2015-12-10T17:03:58Z nyef: Oh yes it could!
2015-12-10T17:04:20Z dwchandler: it's not interrupts or single-threadedness. it's just bad design
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2015-12-10T17:05:03Z n2kra: the proven cpu was when fly-by-wire was new
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2015-12-10T17:07:11Z sebboh: nyef, I guess if a developer uses random() all over some application, it could be difficult for me to learn how to interact with that application even while my eyes are closed.  Games do this on purpose, for great benefit!
2015-12-10T17:07:36Z sebboh: s/even while my eyes are closed/well/
2015-12-10T17:09:02Z nyef: Not even that, just use a single-threaded program to interact with an asynchronous interface or three.
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2015-12-10T17:10:28Z sebboh: Like reading from a tape?  Yeah, that's an interaction that I expect to vary from time to time.  That's what abort, retry, or fail is for.  Which brings us back to CL. ;)
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2015-12-10T17:33:01Z sebboh: LiamH that is a damned fine hostname.
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2015-12-10T17:35:16Z LiamH: Thank you
2015-12-10T17:35:18Z mordocai: Has anyone used cl-quickcheck? It doesn't say in docs if shrinking is implemented (the docs are also half ruby). Anyone know? If not, I can just try it of course.
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2015-12-10T17:36:00Z LiamH: Fortunately, it has slightly more than 4K words of RAM.
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2015-12-10T17:41:02Z n2kra: whats the bang!path ?
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2015-12-10T18:19:48Z musselboy: devops is stupid
2015-12-10T18:19:53Z musselboy: so is virtualization
2015-12-10T18:20:01Z musselboy: name based virtual hosts blow it all up
2015-12-10T18:20:07Z musselboy: I hate people
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2015-12-10T19:41:33Z musselboy: I am starting to realize how bad software development really is.
2015-12-10T19:41:42Z musselboy: The lisp people are probably right.
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2015-12-10T19:42:00Z blub: lol
2015-12-10T19:43:09Z musselboy: I bet converting what we do to lisp would massively improve things.
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2015-12-10T19:47:43Z phoe_krk: What's the simplest way of creating a deque in Lisp?
2015-12-10T19:48:22Z phoe_krk: I thought of using a (data next-node prev-node) list as a node.
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2015-12-10T19:50:35Z sebboh: phoe_krk: maybe I misunderstood your question, but... isn't there a destructive push function and a destructive pop function?  So your deque itself would be an ordinary list?
2015-12-10T19:51:15Z phoe_krk: sebboh: I have to implement a deque myself. An ordinary list is a single ended list and I need both ends.
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2015-12-10T19:52:33Z sebboh: oh, right, deques allow business on both ends.  Well, destructive reverse.  Sorry, your lists must be much longer than I was picturing.
2015-12-10T19:58:53Z shka: phoe_krk: get two arrays, link together
2015-12-10T19:59:21Z phoe_krk: shka: welp, I want to do that using some kind of list structure.
2015-12-10T19:59:33Z shka: why?
2015-12-10T19:59:48Z shka: oh well, if you really need list
2015-12-10T19:59:53Z shka: make double linked list
2015-12-10T20:00:00Z shka: store both ends
2015-12-10T20:00:09Z phoe_krk: shka: school assignment :P
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2015-12-10T20:00:20Z shka: well ok
2015-12-10T20:00:20Z phoe_krk: I already implemented a single-ended list in Lisp
2015-12-10T20:00:25Z phoe_krk: now I want to do something that's actually usable.
2015-12-10T20:00:30Z shka: yes, i know that
2015-12-10T20:00:42Z shka: ok, implement double link list
2015-12-10T20:00:49Z shka: wrap in some object
2015-12-10T20:01:00Z shka: store both ends of the list
2015-12-10T20:01:26Z shka: push to begin = new begin
2015-12-10T20:01:29Z shka: push to end = new end
2015-12-10T20:01:31Z shka: done
2015-12-10T20:01:33Z shka: easy
2015-12-10T20:02:53Z nyef: Oh, wow. A sudden wave of nostalgia for the times when we'd find someone asking for help with an assignment, and start competing for shortest implementation (by whatever measure, and only by reporting the measure not the actual implementation) or most twisted implementation (the "dfs return path" incident, check lisppaste for details). (-:
2015-12-10T20:03:51Z mordocai: Heh, that sounds like fun.
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2015-12-10T20:29:07Z jasom: phoe_krk: easiest way is to keep track of the last CONS cell in a list
2015-12-10T20:29:29Z phoe_krk: jasom: not really the easiest, this way you can't delete the last element in O(1).
2015-12-10T20:29:39Z jasom: phoe_krk: oh I thought this was a queue
2015-12-10T20:29:55Z jasom: phoe_krk: so you're not limited to FIFO operation on it?
2015-12-10T20:30:04Z phoe_krk: maybe my bad, I want to be able to add/delete elements on both ends.
2015-12-10T20:31:18Z phoe_krk: > catch 'up
2015-12-10T20:31:19Z phoe_krk: > '
2015-12-10T20:31:22Z phoe_krk: > throw 'up
2015-12-10T20:31:24Z phoe_krk: jeez xD
2015-12-10T20:32:02Z jasom: phoe_krk: yeah, then a doubly-linked list would make sense; I don't think I've ever actually needed a double-ended queue in the real world, but I'm sure there's some uses for htem
2015-12-10T20:32:12Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/24437 good lords
2015-12-10T20:32:27Z phoe_krk: this is some sick stuff
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2015-12-10T20:34:00Z Bike: jesus christ nyef. lmao
2015-12-10T20:34:38Z nyef: Bike: You found the paste, then?
2015-12-10T20:34:44Z Bike: phoe did
2015-12-10T20:34:48Z nyef: Ah, so I see.
2015-12-10T20:35:13Z nyef: My main regret is that I didn't manage to fit (car dinal) in there as a form.
2015-12-10T20:35:21Z Bike: pkhuong's is just a strategy that's not usual, yours is... well, it's pretty great, anyway
2015-12-10T20:36:09Z Bike: (car (or dinal (go up))) could be (or (car dinal) (go up)), couldn't it?
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2015-12-10T20:36:57Z phoe_krk: I... don't think PCL advises using restarts like *that*
2015-12-10T20:37:16Z phoe_krk: I'll have a piece of code to show during tomorrow's Lisp presentation
2015-12-10T20:37:18Z nyef: Bike: I think that might affect the semantics a bit.
2015-12-10T20:37:23Z phoe_krk: "that is a very simple tree traversal code"
2015-12-10T20:38:15Z Bike: i dunno. dinal is non-list -> error. dinal is cons -> (car dinal). dinal is null -> (go up)
2015-12-10T20:38:49Z nyef: Let's see... UP is a restart name, a GO tag, a CATCH tag, and a local function. Does that sound about right?
2015-12-10T20:39:43Z Bike: seems so
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2015-12-10T20:52:38Z phoe_krk: nyef: wtf
2015-12-10T20:52:50Z phoe_krk: why isn't it a local variable
2015-12-10T20:52:56Z phoe_krk: that's an unoccupied symbol slot
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2015-12-10T20:56:32Z nyef: phoe_krk: Because I wanted to make the (OR DINAL ...) joke!
2015-12-10T20:57:06Z nyef: On the other hand, if it was a local variable, and I had a local function named SHUT... (-:
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2015-12-10T20:58:07Z phoe_krk: :P
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2015-12-10T20:58:31Z Bike: ohhhhh.
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2015-12-10T20:58:54Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/166285 pfffft.
2015-12-10T20:58:54Z phoe_krk: (setf *tree* nil) (setf *tree* (bst-push *tree* 5)) (setf *tree* (bst-push *tree* 6)) works.
2015-12-10T20:59:14Z phoe_krk: (setf *tree* (bst-push *tree* 7)) doesn't.
2015-12-10T20:59:18Z phoe_krk: ...wait why am I doing setf
2015-12-10T21:00:05Z phoe_krk: (setf *tree* nil) (bst-push *tree* 5) (bst-push *tree* 6) - this works.
2015-12-10T21:00:07Z shka: good lord
2015-12-10T21:00:10Z phoe_krk: (bst-push *tree* 7) - this magically hangs it up.
2015-12-10T21:00:12Z shka: this is so evil
2015-12-10T21:00:17Z phoe_krk: I know it is
2015-12-10T21:00:26Z phoe_krk: but I can't do the tree in a functional way.
2015-12-10T21:00:35Z shka: nyef: you are either insane or genious
2015-12-10T21:00:36Z phoe_krk: only the only good and proper way.
2015-12-10T21:00:39Z phoe_krk: oppan Java style.
2015-12-10T21:00:42Z phoe_krk: oh, that. he is.
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2015-12-10T21:01:32Z nyef: shka: There's a reason I usually keep the part of me that can write that sort of code away from writing code.
2015-12-10T21:01:56Z nyef: Or, at least, away from writing code in languages other than assembler.
2015-12-10T21:01:57Z shka: phoe_krk: sure you can do tree functional way
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2015-12-10T21:02:06Z phoe_krk: shka: not in my teacher's case
2015-12-10T21:02:11Z shka: pfff
2015-12-10T21:02:15Z shka: nonsense
2015-12-10T21:02:25Z phoe_krk: shka: of course I do, and I want to do, but not in here :P
2015-12-10T21:02:48Z shka: phoe_krk: trust me, don't try to treat this all to serous
2015-12-10T21:03:00Z shka: it is all phony, really
2015-12-10T21:03:04Z phoe_krk: shka: heh. well, I'll write it functional style, okay.
2015-12-10T21:03:10Z phoe_krk: AND THEN I'LL SETF EVERYTHING.
2015-12-10T21:03:15Z phoe_krk: and watch the world burn.
2015-12-10T21:03:19Z shka: that's what i would do
2015-12-10T21:03:29Z phoe_krk: I mean, insert setfs everywhere.
2015-12-10T21:03:34Z shka: no?
2015-12-10T21:03:37Z shka: why
2015-12-10T21:03:42Z shka: just do following
2015-12-10T21:03:45Z phoe_krk: because I want to watch the world burn, shka.
2015-12-10T21:03:57Z shka: but that's to much work
2015-12-10T21:04:01Z shka: do the following
2015-12-10T21:04:19Z shka: btw, why for the gods sake this is macro?
2015-12-10T21:04:38Z Bike: your macro here is already functional. you could take out the setfs and make it a function and it would work the same, far as i can tell
2015-12-10T21:04:58Z phoe_krk: shka: case of setfing an empty var.
2015-12-10T21:05:10Z phoe_krk: you can't setf a nil from inside a function.
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2015-12-10T21:05:24Z Bike: plus as a macro it has multiple evaluation.
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2015-12-10T21:05:43Z phoe_krk: and, hell, I'll scrap it and just rewrite it in a defun/functional way.
2015-12-10T21:05:57Z shka: yes, please
2015-12-10T21:05:59Z Bike: i mean, don't scrap it, literally just pull out some commas and you're done
2015-12-10T21:06:07Z shka: or that
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2015-12-10T21:08:37Z shka: phoe_krk: should root only tree loook like (nil something nil)?
2015-12-10T21:08:48Z phoe_krk: yes, precisely
2015-12-10T21:08:55Z shka: why?
2015-12-10T21:09:20Z Bike: the format is tree := (tree element tree). the first of the list is the left branch, third is the right branch.
2015-12-10T21:09:30Z shka: aaah, right
2015-12-10T21:09:32Z Bike: tree := nil | (tree element tree), sorry
2015-12-10T21:09:43Z shka: yeah, makes sense
2015-12-10T21:10:18Z shka: if i write code like this
2015-12-10T21:10:53Z shka: i usually also define functions like left-branch right-branch
2015-12-10T21:10:57Z shka: and value
2015-12-10T21:11:19Z shka: i find it difficult to follow just first, second etc.
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2015-12-10T21:14:10Z Bike: actually one thing you can do is (defstruct (bst (:type list) (:constructor (left element right))) left element right) which, if i remembered the syntax, defines make-bst, bst-left, bst-element, and bst-right, and setfs.
2015-12-10T21:14:33Z eudoxia: *-element?
2015-12-10T21:14:51Z Bike: (:constructor make-bst left element right). bah
2015-12-10T21:15:04Z eudoxia: oh
2015-12-10T21:15:16Z Bike: still wrong
2015-12-10T21:15:46Z Bike: (:constructor make-bst (left element right)). there. now it runs.
2015-12-10T21:15:50Z shka: i had no idea about :constructor
2015-12-10T21:17:41Z nyef: Oh, involve a :CONC-NAME option as well already. d-:
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2015-12-10T21:34:01Z jasom: ah, a boa constructor
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2015-12-10T21:34:33Z Bike: it beats writing a bunch of (defun (setf bst-left) ...) shit is all
2015-12-10T21:34:37Z jasom: is that the lamest pun in the hyperspec, or is there a worse one?
2015-12-10T21:35:30Z shka: boa constructor is actually the thing in hyperpec?
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2015-12-10T21:36:01Z mood: clhs defstruct
2015-12-10T21:36:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm
2015-12-10T21:36:02Z Bike: yes. "By Order of Arguments". it's pretty dire.
2015-12-10T21:36:03Z mood: yes
2015-12-10T21:36:48Z jasom: on the other hand, I've never forgotten how :constructor works due to that pun, so it's not all bad
2015-12-10T21:38:23Z shka: hehe
2015-12-10T21:38:27Z shka: actually funny
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2015-12-10T23:14:05Z drmeister: Thank you Xach and luis for your suggestions for documentation systems.
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2015-12-11T00:39:23Z dto: hello Xach and friends. im just popping in to mention that we on #lispgames have set up a Lisp Game Jam for just after New Years. ye all are invited to participate/discuss. http://itch.io/jam/january-2016-lisp-game-jam
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2015-12-11T00:46:18Z zacts: drmeister: what did you decide on?
2015-12-11T00:46:38Z zacts: (for a documentation system, that is)
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2015-12-11T00:50:36Z Zhivago: All true theories can be put into practice.
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2015-12-11T01:40:35Z phoe_krk: heavens crumble and die the moment you abuse Lisp and spell defparameter as DeFpArAmEtEr
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2015-12-11T02:06:45Z drmeister: zacts: flash- has some documentation that he wrote using emacs org mode that looks very nice.  I need to talk with him about what's involved with that.  I think I'll use that.
2015-12-11T02:07:01Z drmeister: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/HeyFlash/clasp-stuff/blob/master/clod-doc.html
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2015-12-11T02:07:39Z drmeister: zacts: This is what he generated to describe the clbind library:  https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/HeyFlash/clasp-stuff/blob/master/clasp-clbind-info.html
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2015-12-11T02:09:35Z phoe_krk: it would be amusing to write a Haskell -> CL automatic translator
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2015-12-11T02:11:46Z phoe_krk: that pops in Haskell code and gives you CL code
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2015-12-11T02:17:23Z phoe_krk: translating Haskell code into Lisp feels so mechanical that I could almost write a bit of Lisp to do that. o_o essentially a with-haskell-syntax.
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2015-12-11T02:32:05Z zacts: nice drmeister
2015-12-11T02:32:10Z zacts: it kind of reminds me of ruby doc
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2015-12-11T02:32:54Z zacts: http://ruby-doc.org/stdlib-2.2.3/libdoc/monitor/rdoc/Monitor.html
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2015-12-11T02:41:30Z zacts: I think I prefer your doc over http://ruby-doc.org even
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2015-12-11T03:19:52Z mordocai: I'm going to write some stuff about garbage collection and how it differs between implementations for articulate-lisp.com. Message me (feel free to query) if you have some input you think would be valuable.
2015-12-11T03:20:04Z mordocai: Or submit it here: https://github.com/pnathan/articulate-common-lisp/issues/53
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2015-12-11T04:05:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-12-11T04:06:18Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-12-11T04:08:36Z blub: hi beach
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2015-12-11T04:14:50Z beach: I said I was going to extract the buffer code from Second Climacs into a separate library, but in fact, I could not resist making significant improvements to the architecture.  This is why it is taking longer.  Improved architecture also means easier to write test code, so it's a good thing I hope.
2015-12-11T04:15:23Z beach: Also, the documentation was too skimpy and has to be improved.
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2015-12-11T04:22:34Z mordocai: Anyone know of any broad/high level documentation on clisp's garbage collector?
2015-12-11T04:23:03Z pjb: It's in the release notes of clisp.
2015-12-11T04:23:16Z mordocai: Hmmm.. didn't look there. I looked in the manual. Checking.
2015-12-11T04:23:45Z beach: mordocai: I like your project on writing about garbage collectors in different implementations.
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2015-12-11T04:24:45Z mordocai: beach: Yeah, the problem is the only one with good docs on it i've found so far is CCL. Though that's out of SBCL, CCL, and Clisp so not a huge sample set yet.
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2015-12-11T04:25:07Z mordocai: I plan on writing about the commercial implementations as well, though maybe in less detail.
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2015-12-11T04:25:27Z beach: mordocai: There are many SBCL developers around, so you can ask them if that should turn out to be necessary.
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2015-12-11T04:26:19Z mordocai: beach: Yeah, i asked on sbcl and got a good starting point.
2015-12-11T04:26:24Z mordocai: #sbcl that is
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2015-12-11T04:31:41Z beach: mordocai: What are you planning to do with the information that you collect, other than write it down and share it?
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2015-12-11T04:32:27Z mordocai: beach: Probably just that. I'll most likely stick with sbcl for my personal development.
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2015-12-11T04:34:13Z pjb: mordocai: sorry, I meant the implementation notes: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/gc.html
2015-12-11T04:37:27Z mordocai: pjb: Ah yeah. Looks like a compacting precise non-generational gc maybe? I'm new to all this, learning as I go.
2015-12-11T04:37:56Z beach: mordocai: Do you know about "The Garbage Collection Handbook", by Jones?
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2015-12-11T04:38:47Z beach: I can recommend it, even though the writing itself is pretty bad.  Its main virtue is that it is complete.
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2015-12-11T04:41:37Z mordocai: Meh, textbook priced
2015-12-11T04:42:04Z beach: Too expensive?
2015-12-11T04:42:19Z mordocai: It is for me to buy just right now off hand.
2015-12-11T04:42:29Z mordocai: The library might have it, or I can buy it next paycheck maybe
2015-12-11T04:43:33Z beach: You can get it for under 50 UKP on amazon.co.uk.
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2015-12-11T04:45:29Z nyef: Cheapest I'm seeing on amazon is about $78 (US).
2015-12-11T04:45:33Z beach: You can get the predecessor book "Garbage Collection" on amazon.com for under 23 USD.
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2015-12-11T04:47:14Z beach: mordocai: A good university library should have it.
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2015-12-11T04:51:50Z beach drools when thinking about the library at Schloss Dagstuhl.
2015-12-11T04:53:20Z beach: https://www.dagstuhl.de/bibliothek/
2015-12-11T04:54:56Z nyef: Oh my.
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2015-12-11T11:05:05Z luis: There's an older survey paper that is nicer to read than Jones's book.
2015-12-11T11:06:26Z luis: Uniprocessor Garbage Collection Techniques, by Paul R. Wilson. Quite a bit more enjoyable to read, IMHO. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.138.5038
2015-12-11T11:06:56Z luis: Hmm, but I now see mordocai went away.
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2015-12-11T11:11:40Z Cymew: Interesting paper anyway, I agree.
2015-12-11T11:12:33Z luis: I found it linked from SBCL/CMUCL's GC source code, actually.
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2015-12-11T12:47:58Z flip214: what's the easiest way to pass a reference to an array element? In C I'd simply use a pointer, do I need to pass the array and the index/indizes in lisp? It's just about identity, ie. EQ comparision.
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2015-12-11T12:49:04Z flip214: perhaps I could pass a foreign pointer around...
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2015-12-11T12:54:06Z Cymew: (AREF my-array idx) is just a pointer. Look back in the logs when I was taken to task recently for thinking about pointers. ;)
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2015-12-11T12:56:11Z flip214: Cymew: no, that'll return the value that is stored there... I can't pass that as a "pointer" that way.
2015-12-11T12:56:22Z namespace sighs
2015-12-11T12:56:37Z namespace: Okay that is like the 5th time this program has crashed because the control stack runs out of memory.
2015-12-11T12:57:00Z namespace: I don't seem to have any non tail recursive functions to gunk it up, I'm not creating a bunch of lambdas.
2015-12-11T12:57:16Z flip214: namespace: "don't recurse, iterate"
2015-12-11T12:57:55Z flip214: namespace: debugging to high, so the stack frames are kept?
2015-12-11T12:58:13Z z0d: namespace: Common Lisp doesn't optimize tail-calls away by default
2015-12-11T12:58:28Z z0d: well, CL implementations to be precise
2015-12-11T12:58:32Z namespace: z0d: I thought SBCL did.
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2015-12-11T12:59:50Z namespace: Anyway I'm running it over a 10gb file to make a word frequency table.
2015-12-11T13:00:08Z namespace: If you return too much data does the Lisp VM just go kaput?
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2015-12-11T13:01:48Z flip214: namespace: why do you recurse for that? won't LOOP, ITERATE, or the DO* macros fulfill your needs?
2015-12-11T13:01:56Z z0d: namespace: not without some DECLARE magic AFAIR
2015-12-11T13:02:16Z namespace: flip214: Most of the program is written with loop macros.
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2015-12-11T13:03:01Z namespace: Part of my annoyance is the seemingly inability to test whether my function is being compiled tail recursive or not.
2015-12-11T13:03:07Z namespace: *seeming
2015-12-11T13:03:26Z flip214: namespace: you'll need to use DISASSEMBLE for that, I'm afraid
2015-12-11T13:03:40Z z0d: http://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html
2015-12-11T13:03:43Z namespace: Is that a debugger command or?
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2015-12-11T13:03:47Z z0d: might be outdated though
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2015-12-11T13:09:58Z flip214: namespace: normal CL function
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2015-12-11T13:12:03Z namespace: flip214: Thanks, is this x86 or?
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2015-12-11T13:13:06Z flip214: don't know, what architecture are you on?
2015-12-11T13:13:36Z namespace: x86_64, I was mostly asking if it was native assembly or bytecode.
2015-12-11T13:14:02Z flip214: well, try it out
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2015-12-11T13:20:11Z flip214: can (ITERATE (for var in-vector vector)) go backwards, too?
2015-12-11T13:20:31Z flip214: ah, it takes DOWNTO
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2015-12-11T13:23:38Z phoe_krk: so, I'm hosting that Lisp presentation in a moment, http://i.imgur.com/xuCpJA6.png , and I have a question - is there any easily implementable but showy reader macro that I should include there as a demonstration?
2015-12-11T13:24:37Z phoe_krk: I already have with-c-syntax because that's what people there are familiar with and I'll show how it gets turned into Lisp code through double macroexpand (it works), but I wonder whether there's anything simpler that I can write before everyone's eyes
2015-12-11T13:25:51Z flip214: write a WITH- macro?
2015-12-11T13:25:52Z nyef: phoe_krk: xml-mixed-mode, maybe?
2015-12-11T13:27:02Z phoe_krk: flip214: with-macro isn't a reader macro, I already have that kind covered
2015-12-11T13:27:12Z phoe_krk: nyef: hm.
2015-12-11T13:27:20Z phoe_krk: maybe I'll be plain silly and use my own pseudonyms
2015-12-11T13:27:22Z phoe_krk: they're fairly simple
2015-12-11T13:27:34Z phoe_krk: and might get the job done
2015-12-11T13:27:39Z flip214: ah sorry, misread.
2015-12-11T13:27:57Z flip214: phoe_krk: show the interpol reader?
2015-12-11T13:29:45Z phoe_krk: hm
2015-12-11T13:29:56Z phoe_krk: or I might avoid their explanation altogether for now, just showing how they work.
2015-12-11T13:29:59Z phoe_krk: I'll use interpol, sure
2015-12-11T13:30:20Z flip214: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1351956/read-macros-what-do-you-use-them-for
2015-12-11T13:30:26Z flip214: sql in CL
2015-12-11T13:30:34Z phoe_krk: sql in CL?
2015-12-11T13:30:57Z phoe_krk: oh, I see
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2015-12-11T14:07:37Z baboon`: hello, I'm half way through Practical Common Lisp and I'm about to start making a reasonably small web app. I understand Caveman2 is the way to go, but how does that fare for UI?
2015-12-11T14:07:54Z baboon`: is there any way to use something like React with a library maybe?
2015-12-11T14:08:09Z baboon`: or would I have to implement an API in CL and then use React.js?
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2015-12-11T14:08:47Z baboon`: the way I understand it right now, Caveman is like vanilla ruby on rails (with less feature and a better language ;)
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2015-12-11T14:15:22Z synchromesh: Has anyone successfully used the ASDF configuration DSL? I want to tell it not to look for any configuration files in the file system.
2015-12-11T14:15:37Z synchromesh: Before I post to asdf-devel...
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2015-12-11T14:21:05Z newcup: baboon`: you might also want to ask that in #lispweb
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2015-12-11T14:21:27Z baboon`: newcup, wasn't aware of that one, thanks
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2015-12-11T14:22:37Z newcup: you're welcome. maybe knowledgeable people are awake there :)
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2015-12-11T14:48:41Z attila_lendvai: synchromesh: would it be ok if you could reset the configuration from lisp code?
2015-12-11T14:49:33Z attila_lendvai: if so, you can do this: (asdf:initialize-source-registry '(:source-registry :ignore-inherited-configuration))
2015-12-11T14:49:59Z synchromesh: attila_lendvai: Yes, that sort of thing could work.
2015-12-11T14:50:34Z synchromesh: attila_lendvai: Thanks for that. I guess I need to keep working through the manual... or should I be grovelling the source as well?
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2015-12-11T14:53:00Z synchromesh: attila_lendvai: I'm trying to set up a web app written in ABCL on Google App Engine, so there's some extra magic for getting the ASD & Lisp files from a JAR file in the classpath. Or can I just stuff things into ASDF/SOURCE-REGISTRY:*SOURCE-REGISTRY*?
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2015-12-11T14:53:59Z attila_lendvai: sorry, I have zero experience with abcl
2015-12-11T14:56:12Z synchromesh: attila_lendvai: That's fine, it's more the ASDF DSL I'm trying to get my head around - the ABCL bits seem to be working (thanks to easye's code).
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2015-12-11T15:04:47Z synchromesh: attila_lendvai: Great, I think that worked! Now I just need to do the same thing for the output translations. But first we're going bowling for my son's 7th birthday. Thanks again!
2015-12-11T15:05:06Z attila_lendvai: you're welcome, and have fun!
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2015-12-11T15:27:53Z ZabaQ has just discovered M-x slime-attach-gdb. Bona-fide magic.
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2015-12-11T15:33:20Z pjb: flip214: in lisp it's the same as in C: (& (aref m 42))
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2015-12-11T15:34:12Z pjb: flip214: see: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp
2015-12-11T15:38:39Z pjb: flip214: now, in the specific case of arrays, what you could do is to use a displaced array.
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2015-12-11T15:42:15Z pjb: flip214: eg. (let* ((v (vector 1 2 3 4)) (pointer (nsubseq v 0 1))) (print (aref pointer 0)) (setf pointer (nudge-displaced-vector pointer :start+ 1 :length 1)) (print (aref pointer 0)))
2015-12-11T15:42:35Z pjb: (nudge-displaced-vector implements pointer arithmeric ;-))
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2015-12-11T16:23:07Z n2kra: namespace still here?
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2015-12-11T16:25:23Z n2kra: is one parser type LAR ? as I got to bigger and deeper files at first clisp had o told to load compile (-C ?)
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2015-12-11T16:27:39Z n2kra: I used a few different CL imps to check that I was writing portable code
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2015-12-11T16:37:39Z Mini_Evo: does anyone know what the easiest way is to remove all integers from a string?
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2015-12-11T16:38:22Z Xach_: Mini_Evo: I don't know about the easiest, but (remove-if #'digit-char-p string) is fairly easy
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2015-12-11T16:39:31Z n2kra: s/LAR/LALR
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2015-12-11T16:40:22Z Xach_: lalr is a type of parser
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2015-12-11T16:41:54Z Mini_Evo: Xach_: It's returning results wrapped in '|' characters
2015-12-11T16:42:03Z Mini_Evo: Xach_: is it possible to fix this?
2015-12-11T16:42:04Z n2kra: I was only doing one thing, text to HTML, if I wanted to do multiple store it in Symbols, or CLOS objects, would generic functions do?
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2015-12-11T16:44:30Z n2kra: mini_evo some kind of :case handling
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2015-12-11T16:46:38Z pjb: Mini_Evo: try: (symbol-name result)
2015-12-11T16:47:38Z Mini_Evo: cheers for the help guys, I've got it in a working state
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2015-12-11T17:14:56Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-12-11T17:16:25Z ggole: Mini_Evo: take care that if you use that, the numbers can't be in formats other than [0-9]
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2015-12-11T17:16:52Z ggole: It would suck to get surprised by a 0x10 or similar
2015-12-11T17:17:35Z beach: Mini_Evo: [I am reading the logs] It would be helpful if you give examples of what you have and what result you want to obtain, and also what you have done so far.
2015-12-11T17:17:37Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-12-11T17:17:49Z beach: Mini_Evo: So for instance, strings contain characters and not integers.
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2015-12-11T17:23:56Z nyef: beach: Have you seen/read http://www.cs.technion.ac.il/~erez/Papers/stopless.pdf ?
2015-12-11T17:24:26Z beach: nyef: First time!  Thanks!
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2015-12-11T17:25:22Z nyef: beach: Found it in the references slide (last slide) of http://www.slideshare.net/goldshtn/modern-gc
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2015-12-11T17:25:59Z n2kra: digit-char-p & opt radix ?
2015-12-11T17:25:59Z beach: I see.  Interesting!
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2015-12-11T17:30:02Z beach: nyef: I will save it for later.  Right now, it's the end of a long and productive day of work, and I don't think I can understand a technical paper at this point.
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2015-12-11T17:33:18Z nyef: That's fine, I just wanted to see if you had anything to say about it, or point you to it if you hadn't seen it yet.
2015-12-11T17:33:33Z nyef: I'm not in a great rush over GC stuff right now.
2015-12-11T17:33:48Z beach: I see.  I will definitely read it and let you know what I think.
2015-12-11T17:33:56Z nyef: Though I am considering ramping up for another GC hacking run in SBCL "soon".
2015-12-11T17:34:11Z nyef: (Which is to say, "probably not this year".)
2015-12-11T17:34:15Z beach: Oh, interesting.
2015-12-11T17:34:27Z beach: Next year is only 3 weeks away.
2015-12-11T17:36:43Z nyef: Okay, it might not happen in January, either.
2015-12-11T17:37:06Z beach: OK, just trying to be encouraging...
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2015-12-11T17:38:07Z nyef: Except that a couple of us on the SBCL side are looking at the possibility of getting rid of cheneygc entirely, because gencgc is so much better in many ways, but gencgc has been showing its age and creakiness for a while as well.
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2015-12-11T17:40:58Z beach: In what way does it show?
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2015-12-11T17:45:24Z nyef: Certainly in maintenance, but also in situations like when there are a lot of threads.
2015-12-11T17:45:55Z beach: I see.
2015-12-11T17:46:10Z nyef: Both of SBCL's garbage collectors pre-date threading support. One of them (cheneygc) simply couldn't be updated to work with threads.
2015-12-11T17:47:45Z beach: So it's not used when SBCL is compiled with thread support?
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2015-12-11T17:51:03Z nyef: One of the prerequisites for upgrading a backend to include thread support is to upgrade it to work with gencgc rather than just cheneygc.
2015-12-11T17:51:26Z beach: I understand.
2015-12-11T17:51:34Z nyef: Because gencgc allows per-thread allocation regions, whereas cheneygc has a single, gloabal allocation pointer, almost always stored in the register set.
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2015-12-11T17:51:56Z nyef: Great for a stop-the-world single-threaded system, incompatible with threads.
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2015-12-11T17:55:47Z beach: It would be interesting to determine how much of that is intrinsic in the technique and how much is just a matter of how it is implemented.
2015-12-11T17:55:57Z beach: Dinner.  I will check in briefly later.
2015-12-11T17:56:31Z n2kra: with current mem vs 64bit addr space are there enough tag bits to try for parallel/concurrent grey multiple mutator
2015-12-11T17:56:45Z nyef: The other bit is that gencgc is fundamentally single-threaded. So a GC involves stopping all of the mutators, running a collection on a single thread, then resuming all of the mutators.
2015-12-11T17:56:47Z ggole: If you tried to sync fine-grained allocations contention would murder you
2015-12-11T17:57:20Z ggole: You *really* don't want the cache line you are populating with your new object's fields to ping-pong between cores
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2015-12-11T17:58:24Z nyef: ggole: If you're going that far, how about a NUMA-aware collector, running the collection processes on nodes close to the memory that they need to work with?
2015-12-11T17:59:01Z ggole: There are quasi-similar ideas in some of the JVMs
2015-12-11T17:59:09Z nyef: After a certain number of threads, SBCL's GC time gets to be dominated by the overhead of stopping and restarting the world.
2015-12-11T17:59:20Z nyef: (The mutators, that is.)
2015-12-11T17:59:44Z ggole: The idea is to have each thread respond to signals to, eg, walk its own stack and spit out a list of roots
2015-12-11T18:00:56Z ggole: Each thread's stack memory stands a good chance of being hot in the cache of the thread in question.
2015-12-11T18:02:39Z nyef: Right, have each thread have a relatively lightweight flip-and-mark-roots process, and then let the rest of the magic happen in parallel... And preferentially, don't require all of the threads to flip at the same time.
2015-12-11T18:03:04Z nyef: This just goes back to my thesis "gencgc is showing its age and creakiness".
2015-12-11T18:03:52Z nyef: There are better ways, we know some of them, we haven't spent the engineering time required to apply them.
2015-12-11T18:04:58Z nyef: Partly because of the probably between five and ten people who understand most of how gencgc works, everyone has a life.
2015-12-11T18:05:16Z ggole: Yeah, it seems like a fair hunk of work
2015-12-11T18:05:34Z dlowe: and no legions of cheap college students, either
2015-12-11T18:06:47Z mordocai wishes he had enough time/motivation to implement cool GC techniques.
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2015-12-11T18:30:10Z jackdaniel: antoszka: moze filemon?
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2015-12-11T19:47:57Z jasom: minion: memo for beach: any garbage collection scheme can be made more thread friendly by allocating large chunks to each thread; then you get a linear reduction in the amount of lock contention for grabbing memory from the central pool.  Memory assigned to a thread but not yet allocated is then typically considered live by the GC.
2015-12-11T19:47:57Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-12-11T19:49:49Z jasom is working on incrementing the number of people who understand most of gencgc by one
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2015-12-11T19:50:52Z mordocai is also working on that, where the 1 is himself.
2015-12-11T19:51:22Z mordocai: Well, maybe not most in my case
2015-12-11T19:51:27Z mordocai: At least some
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2015-12-11T19:52:58Z jasom: I'm up to some already
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2015-12-11T19:53:59Z jasom: more reinforcement of my wish that sparc/power/alpha had won over x86 and arm
2015-12-11T19:55:25Z jasom: 15/16 GPRs is a bit tight for dual stacks
2015-12-11T19:56:32Z jasom: and even more so when you have to statically divide the registers between two domains
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2015-12-11T19:58:40Z jasom: though AArch64 corrects this at least
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2015-12-11T20:08:57Z nyef: jasom: AArch64 is apparently fairly similar to MIPS.
2015-12-11T20:10:07Z jasom: nyef: in a lot of ways it is with the sometimes-zero register and all
2015-12-11T20:10:14Z jasom hadn't thought of that before
2015-12-11T20:10:59Z nyef: I'm almost entirely unfamiliar with AArch64, but I'm somewhat conversant with MIPS.
2015-12-11T20:11:14Z jasom: nyef: I haven't done any mips since the 5kc was current
2015-12-11T20:11:37Z nyef: I'm working on R14000 and R16000 hardware, myself.
2015-12-11T20:12:03Z jasom has nightmares of counting the number of ssnops due to the ISA lacking proper synchronization instructions
2015-12-11T20:12:16Z jasom: also, that one didn't have an interrupt-safe way to disable interrupts
2015-12-11T20:12:24Z nyef: ?
2015-12-11T20:12:39Z nyef: What counts as "an interrupt-safe way to disable interrupts"?
2015-12-11T20:13:01Z jasom: nyef: the "interrupt is enabled bit" was in a register along with other fields that ISRs might want to change
2015-12-11T20:14:02Z nyef: Sure. So you have to R/M/W it, and there's a hazard afterwards if you've disabled interrupts so you can't just presume in your IRQ handler that they're enabled, you have to actually check, but I don't see that as being interrupt-unsafe.
2015-12-11T20:14:31Z jasom: nyef: I mean if you r/m/w it then you might lose changes made in an ISR
2015-12-11T20:14:45Z nyef: Ahh.
2015-12-11T20:14:48Z nyef: Fair enough.
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2015-12-11T20:17:03Z jasom: that could be worked around by the OS fairly easily, since it was non-smp, but annoying.  The ssnop stuff was a pain though; calculating pipeline stages on a superscalar architecture with instruction prefetching was a pain, particularly when you changed itlbs...
2015-12-11T20:17:19Z nyef: Okay, you win.
2015-12-11T20:17:49Z nyef: ... I wonder if there's something like that going on with the DTLBs in Linux on R1x000?
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2015-12-11T20:18:13Z jasom: nyef: do they use MIPS ISA v1?  Most of this was fixed in later revisions of hte ISA
2015-12-11T20:18:27Z nyef: MIPS IV
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2015-12-11T20:19:13Z jasom: 5kc was MIPS32 release 1 I think...
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2015-12-11T20:20:18Z nyef: Oh, so here's a neat thing to find reference to in an architecture manual: PA-RISC has a concept of a "palindromic NOP", which is necessary when switching endianness modes on the processor, due to not being able to know precisely when the mode change will hit other than it being within a specific window of seven instructions.
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2015-12-11T20:22:21Z jasom looked it up: 5k was MIPS64, but ran 32 bit mode as a MIPS32r1, and this was replacing a 4k.  I'm guessing that MIPS IV processors have both of those issues (but if they don't prefetch and aren't superscalar, the calculations are much simplified)
2015-12-11T20:23:52Z jasom: and I looked that up and the R10k  can issue 5 instructions per cycle, so it's likely to be just the same PITA
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2015-12-11T20:25:22Z nyef: Yeah, superscalar. And there's some occasional cache consistency issue with speculative execution on the R10k itself that got fixed for the later CPUs in series.
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2015-12-11T20:36:22Z n_blownapart: hi  this pertains to scheme. if relevant to lisp, please explain why some (primative) functions do not require a single quote to denote an argument?
2015-12-11T20:37:04Z n_blownapart: i.e. in the case of null?
2015-12-11T20:37:35Z mordocai: n_blownapart: You might get an answer, but for reference this is a Common Lisp specific channel. There's a #scheme I think. The answer is likely the same in this case.
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2015-12-11T20:39:37Z jasom: n_blownapart: in most dialects of lisp quote is not used to denote an argument, but rather to prevent evaluation of a form; both special-operators and macros can control which of their arguments are evaluated, while functions calls will evaluate all of their arguments.
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2015-12-11T20:40:19Z mordocai: It worked!
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2015-12-11T20:41:09Z jasom: n_blownapart: also see ##lisp for discussion about various lisp-varients if you have a non-dialect-specific question
2015-12-11T20:41:15Z White_Flame: n_blownapart: could you give an example of where you think it's confusing?
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2015-12-11T20:44:23Z n_blownapart: thanks jasom White_Flame  .. well I'm just beginning . I'm reading an article on lisp dialects / clojure that is dealing with the explicit #quote func. in the early pages of 'the little schemer,' null? would return true without the single quote, and false with it. btw the scheme channel is dead. thanks for helping...
2015-12-11T20:45:28Z n_blownapart: I'm not a programmer. I know a bit of ruby and scheme is quite foreign.
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2015-12-11T20:45:40Z eschulte: so this sounds absurd as I ask it, but is anyone aware of a reasonably efficient scheme emulator that runs under common lisp?
2015-12-11T20:45:41Z jasom: n_blownapart: something like (let ((x nil)) (null x)) => t (let ((x nil)) (null 'x)) => nil
2015-12-11T20:46:24Z jasom: n_blownapart: (this is a common-lisp version of what you're talking about, to keep things on-topic for here)
2015-12-11T20:46:25Z axion: n_blownapart: quote returns just the object, which is not evaluated.
2015-12-11T20:46:26Z mordocai: eschulte: Found this on google http://mumble.net/~jar/pseudoscheme/
2015-12-11T20:46:54Z eschulte: mordocai: thanks, your googling is better than mine, all I found was lisp/scheme comparison pages
2015-12-11T20:46:56Z jasom: n_blownapart: for a simpler version (let ((x nil)) x) => nil ; (let ((x nil)) 'x)) => x
2015-12-11T20:47:21Z mordocai: eschulte: Yeah, I have the same thing happen sometimes
2015-12-11T20:47:23Z White_Flame: n_blownapart: (do-something x) means use the value of X.  (do-something 'x) means use the literal symbol X
2015-12-11T20:48:01Z n_blownapart: ok I'll run all of that thanks jasom. axion yeah but in this is not for the explicit 'quote', but for i.e. (null? '( a b c)
2015-12-11T20:48:11Z White_Flame: (do-something (+ 2 3)) means use the value 5.  (do-something '(+ 2 3)) means use the literal list containing '+, 2, and 3
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2015-12-11T20:48:54Z n_blownapart: White_Flame: et al... thanks working on it.
2015-12-11T20:49:53Z n_blownapart: correction* (null? '( a b c))
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2015-12-11T20:53:13Z ghost_: good evening guys
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2015-12-11T20:54:53Z jasom: n_blownapart: to simplify just remove the null? part since all that does is check if the value is nil or not
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2015-12-11T20:56:36Z jasom: for my non-lisp stuff I prefer redo to make just because redo build files are also just shell scripts; there's not enough room in my brain for 8 different "not quite shell" scripting languages
2015-12-11T20:57:50Z jasom: sorry, wrong channel
2015-12-11T20:58:22Z mordocai was confused for a moment.
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2015-12-11T23:10:32Z n_blownapart: thanks all I had to step out...
2015-12-11T23:10:55Z blub: hi n_blownapart
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2015-12-11T23:15:40Z the-nsa: hey, is it possible to make system calls with sbcl?
2015-12-11T23:15:51Z InvalidCo: linux syscalls?
2015-12-11T23:15:56Z the-nsa: yes
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2015-12-11T23:16:50Z InvalidCo: are you absolutely certain you need those?
2015-12-11T23:17:19Z the-nsa: hand't thought about that
2015-12-11T23:17:26Z n2kra: instead of save-lisp-and-die fork-lisp-and-die
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2015-12-11T23:17:43Z InvalidCo: I believe you can do some stuff with the sb-posix package
2015-12-11T23:17:45Z Bicyclidine: i'd think real hard, but i think most of the syscalls are in the sb-posix contrib (run (require :sb-posix) first)
2015-12-11T23:17:49Z InvalidCo: but I wouldn't really poke around
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2015-12-11T23:18:10Z the-nsa: sb-posix
2015-12-11T23:18:14Z the-nsa: okay I'll check that section
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2015-12-11T23:18:28Z Bicyclidine: what syscalls do you want to use?
2015-12-11T23:19:00Z the-nsa: I don't have a set in particular, but I want to make some daemon
2015-12-11T23:19:10Z n_blownapart: blub hi
2015-12-11T23:19:19Z nyef: Typically, you'd use the libc (thus, sb-posix) rather than a bare syscall.
2015-12-11T23:19:42Z nyef: SBCL can be made to do a bare syscall if necessary, but it's a bit involved, and horrifically platform-dependent.
2015-12-11T23:20:51Z nyef: (As in, needs to have at least one version per arch-os combination, minimum, and the actual data structure layouts and register assignments and whatnot may vary drastically.)
2015-12-11T23:21:07Z the-nsa: :/
2015-12-11T23:21:13Z the-nsa: wow that sucks
2015-12-11T23:21:27Z Bicyclidine: i think there's an sb-daemon somewhere. i dunno if it works, though
2015-12-11T23:21:43Z the-nsa: I want to manage users, and so on
2015-12-11T23:21:51Z the-nsa: uhh... processes
2015-12-11T23:22:26Z the-nsa: the idea is to interface what the kernel does, with lisp
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2015-12-11T23:22:39Z nyef: Seriously, almost nobody uses bare syscalls for anything, they almost all go via the libc.
2015-12-11T23:22:51Z the-nsa: yeah libc does sound like the way to go
2015-12-11T23:22:55Z Bicyclidine: i'm curious what situations would require bare syscalls.
2015-12-11T23:23:03Z Bicyclidine: other than "i don't want libc", i guess
2015-12-11T23:23:08Z jasom: Bicyclidine: if you want to use a syscall that libc hasn't adopted yet
2015-12-11T23:23:15Z InvalidCo: well, if you were to write your own libc? :)
2015-12-11T23:23:19Z Bicyclidine: makes sense.
2015-12-11T23:23:19Z nyef: Bicyclidine: Not having a libc is the main one. Or needing to use a syscall that isn't in the libc.
2015-12-11T23:23:36Z nyef: InvalidCo: Then we'd write it in terms of Lisp, see Zeta-C and such for examples.
2015-12-11T23:23:56Z jasom: polarssl made a syscall to access the new CSPRNG interface (and to check if the interface existed).
2015-12-11T23:24:15Z jasom: I think glibc now has a function for that though (it didn't at the time)
2015-12-11T23:24:21Z n2kra: if someone to tighten secuity deleted say chmod from libc, you could still make the syscall
2015-12-11T23:24:29Z the-nsa: ^
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2015-12-11T23:24:43Z the-nsa: that sounds like a possible scenario
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2015-12-11T23:26:09Z Bicyclidine: libc with no chmod? is that a thing?
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2015-12-11T23:27:08Z InvalidCo: sb-daemon looks pretty cool
2015-12-11T23:28:33Z n2kra: something I remember someone else pondering
2015-12-11T23:29:29Z Bicyclidine: I mean it would be a pointless "security measure" for exactly the reason you said.
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2015-12-11T23:31:56Z Bicyclidine: well. i guess it helps return to libc attacks? or something. still, seems weird
2015-12-11T23:33:30Z InvalidCo: heh
2015-12-11T23:33:59Z InvalidCo: seems like when sb-posix:chmod succeeds, it returns 0 (like the c syscall is supposed to on success)
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2015-12-11T23:35:00Z InvalidCo: but on error (such as a permission problem) it signals a SB-POSIX:SYSCALL-ERROR
2015-12-11T23:39:22Z Bicyclidine: that's pretty much what i've done writing a basic ffi layer. fuck errno
2015-12-11T23:40:13Z InvalidCo: but why return it for a successful call?
2015-12-11T23:40:30Z nyef: What gets really fun is when the difference between an actual error and a specific success result is that the success result leaves errno unchanged, but otherwise returns the same value as an error result...
2015-12-11T23:41:35Z Bicyclidine: sometimes a 'success' and an 'error' result look the same and it's annoying
2015-12-11T23:41:52Z Bicyclidine: InvalidCo: why return 0 instead of nil or something?
2015-12-11T23:42:32Z InvalidCo: beats me
2015-12-11T23:42:38Z InvalidCo: but that's what sb-posix seems to do
2015-12-11T23:42:57Z InvalidCo: I was thinking more along the lines of (values)
2015-12-11T23:43:13Z Bicyclidine: because the ffi needs to know the return value, and then telling it to ignore that value is slightly more work
2015-12-11T23:43:23Z InvalidCo: mm
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2015-12-12T00:39:18Z jasom: InvalidCo: fwiw I'm of the opinion that the process management tool should handle daemonizing; if I'm manually running a program, I want it in the foreground, and if it's being automatically run, then whatever is running it can handle daemonization.
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2015-12-12T00:48:48Z InvalidCo: the daemons I usually use provide -d
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2015-12-12T00:51:03Z jasom: InvalidCo: and I don't think I've *ever* passed -d to daemons that provide it (but am always passing -f to daemons that default to background)
2015-12-12T00:51:32Z InvalidCo: do your thing
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2015-12-12T00:57:15Z nyef: I typically don't bother with daemonization these days, I just run stuff in screen. Probably not the best way overall, but it's been working for me for a while now.
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2015-12-12T01:03:06Z InvalidCo: hopefully not in production :D
2015-12-12T01:03:22Z InvalidCo: I saw a few days ago screen mess up some character output
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2015-12-12T01:03:58Z InvalidCo: not in a significant way, but it still served as a reminder that maybe it's not a good idea to rely on it being a flawless piece of software :)
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2015-12-12T01:04:53Z nyef: Yes, actually, in production.
2015-12-12T01:05:53Z nyef: Lisp processes three and four per screen, one or two screens per node (serving different functions), and multiple nodes (EC2 instances).
2015-12-12T01:06:43Z nyef: It's not like we need to interact with them very much directly, this time around we're doing a lot less hot-patching as well, instead preferring to do a full release cycle where possible.
2015-12-12T01:09:00Z InvalidCo: doesn't sound too bad
2015-12-12T01:09:28Z InvalidCo: I was thinking more about something like a one-screen setup for both hotpatching and running the server as a foreground process :)
2015-12-12T01:10:32Z axion: i'm struggling with a package problem
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2015-12-12T01:10:47Z nyef: Been there, with something like eight process instances over at least two machines.
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2015-12-12T01:11:34Z nyef: And the reason that I use so many process instances is that I use a thread cap, so that excessive load doesn't bring the entire system to its knees, since SBCL doesn't deal well with "too many" threads. Feel free to quantify "too many" for yourself if you're worried about it.
2015-12-12T01:11:40Z nyef: axion: Oh?
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2015-12-12T01:12:07Z axion: well, i have a function, #'A, in package A. i :USE symbols from package A in another package B.
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2015-12-12T01:12:41Z axion: i want #'A to do something based on the package-name of #'A, even when called from package B
2015-12-12T01:12:47Z axion: how?
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2015-12-12T01:13:34Z InvalidCo: nyef: do you restart the whole lisp image on a full release update?
2015-12-12T01:15:48Z nyef: Yes. Before it was because it was a source code distribution, and it was the easiest way to make sure that everything got loaded/compiled. Now it's because it's an executable core, so it's unpack the new version, update a symlink, and restart each process.
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2015-12-12T01:17:10Z nyef: But then, this was also a deliberate design decision to keep all of the persistent state in postgresql rather than try to keep it anywhere else and have to deal with cache invalidation/synchronization, recovery in case a node gets bounced without warning, and the like.
2015-12-12T01:17:15Z InvalidCo: axion: eval the value of *package* compile-time?
2015-12-12T01:17:24Z jasom: clhs symbol-package
2015-12-12T01:17:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_3.htm
2015-12-12T01:17:48Z InvalidCo: nyef: yeah, that's what I figured
2015-12-12T01:17:50Z jasom: axion: all symbols have a "home package"
2015-12-12T01:18:00Z jasom: regardless of where they are used or imported
2015-12-12T01:18:10Z InvalidCo: :)
2015-12-12T01:18:21Z axion: jasom: thanks
2015-12-12T01:18:51Z nyef: axion: No points will be given for coming up with a sequence of legal package operations that manage to wedge a symbol in the keyword package that is not KEYWORDP.
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2015-12-12T01:22:27Z jasom: nyef: even better is one with no home package at all being accessible in the keyword package
2015-12-12T01:22:53Z nyef: jasom: That's not much harder. All you have to do is unintern it from its home package after getting it into the keyword package.
2015-12-12T01:23:13Z jasom: IMPORT followed by UNINTERN
2015-12-12T01:23:24Z nyef: Exactly.
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2015-12-12T01:23:34Z Bike: can you not just import a homeless symbol?
2015-12-12T01:23:48Z jasom: nope, import makes a homeless symbol homed
2015-12-12T01:23:48Z nyef: Bike: When you IMPORT a homeless symbol, it gets its home set.
2015-12-12T01:23:55Z Bike: oh. figures.
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2015-12-12T01:24:04Z nyef: But if you IMPORT a symbol WITH a home, it doesn't.
2015-12-12T01:24:37Z nyef: And there are special rules for IMPORT to KEYWORD, but they don't actually include overriding the SYMBOL-PACKAGE slot.
2015-12-12T01:24:44Z jasom: (import '(abcdefg) :keyword) (unintern 'abcdefg) :abcdefg => The variable #:ABCDEFG is unbound.
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2015-12-12T01:25:02Z nyef: jasom: Actually, THAT case might be a bug.
2015-12-12T01:25:14Z Bike: pff, that took a second to process.
2015-12-12T01:25:42Z nyef: clhs 11.1.2.3.1
2015-12-12T01:25:42Z specbot: Interning a Symbol in the KEYWORD Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abca.htm
2015-12-12T01:26:07Z nyef: Hrm.
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2015-12-12T01:26:14Z jasom: I never interned it into the KEYWORD package
2015-12-12T01:26:18Z Bike: doesn't say anything about imports!
2015-12-12T01:26:25Z Bike: doesn't say anything about a dog playing football
2015-12-12T01:26:33Z nyef: jasom: You did when you entered :abcdefg.
2015-12-12T01:26:55Z nyef: Have a look at the glossary for intern v.t., sense 1.
2015-12-12T01:27:11Z nyef: Oh, sorry, wrong glossary definition.
2015-12-12T01:27:37Z nyef: The glossary definition for interned is just as damning, if not more so.
2015-12-12T01:28:32Z nyef: Accessible directly, rather than inherited. And since there IS no :USE relationship, it's directly accessible.
2015-12-12T01:28:44Z nyef: So, THAT much should define it as a constant with its own value.
2015-12-12T01:28:56Z jasom: nyef: debatable
2015-12-12T01:29:04Z nyef: But it still isn't KEYWORDP, and still prints as #:ABCDEFG.
2015-12-12T01:29:38Z nyef: For a real challenge, find the line of reasoning through the CLHS which requires all symbols to have themselves as values.
2015-12-12T01:29:43Z jasom: oh, I think you're right
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2015-12-12T01:31:15Z jasom: arguably, when you import a symbol to KEYWORD it should become of type keyword
2015-12-12T01:31:21Z jasom: Symbols in the KEYWORD package are, by definition, of type keyword.
2015-12-12T01:32:19Z nyef: Yes, but that's not what KEYWORDP tests for.
2015-12-12T01:33:03Z nyef: And that's actually an interesting case for TYPEP, now isn't it? (-:
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2015-12-12T01:33:39Z nyef: It looks like TYPEP must use FIND-SYMBOL, not KEYWORDP, to test for keywordness, doesn't it?
2015-12-12T01:33:45Z jasom: (typep ':abcdefg 'keyword) => nil ; clearly a bug
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2015-12-12T01:34:29Z nyef: Oh, this is beautiful. (-:
2015-12-12T01:34:41Z Bike: christ.
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2015-12-12T01:35:13Z jasom: (find-symbol "ABCDEFG" "KEYWORD") => #:ABCDEFG , :INTERNAL ; it's not inherited, so it's a keyword
2015-12-12T01:35:25Z jasom: or rather it's of type keyword, but is not a keyword[1]
2015-12-12T01:35:31Z nyef: Hang on, that's wrong too!
2015-12-12T01:35:41Z nyef: It's required to be a public symbol, isn't it?
2015-12-12T01:35:44Z nyef: Exported, I mean.
2015-12-12T01:35:51Z jasom: yup
2015-12-12T01:36:18Z jasom: I predict that the sbcl devs will hate anybody who files this bug
2015-12-12T01:36:53Z nyef: I don't know, I'm finding it highly amusing, and am tempted to write up the test case and commit it myself.
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2015-12-12T01:37:37Z jasom: it will be a performance regression, surely?  Both on interning to keyword *and* on typep 'keyword
2015-12-12T01:38:39Z jasom: interestingly enough, INTERN does not intern a symbol
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2015-12-12T01:38:48Z jasom: by the hyperspec definition
2015-12-12T01:39:22Z nyef: It interns a string, given by a designator, doesn't it?
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2015-12-12T01:39:54Z jasom: nowhere does the INTERN definition reference the intern glossary entry, but instead has a specific definition that is congruent to the glossary entry, except with regards to existing symbols internal to the keyword package
2015-12-12T01:40:29Z nyef: The keyword package is not allowed to have any symbols in it that are not public.
2015-12-12T01:40:48Z jasom: sorry ,s/internal to/in the/
2015-12-12T01:42:08Z jasom: i.e. by the chls definition, (intern "ABCDEFG" "KEYWORD") should *not* do any work if "ABCDEFG" is already accessible in the keyword package
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2015-12-12T01:43:00Z jasom: whereas we already agreed that an unhomed symbol that is interned by the glossary definition *should* ensure that its value is itself and it is external
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2015-12-12T01:45:53Z jasom: aha, CCL does it right
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2015-12-12T01:46:13Z jasom: (import '(abcdefg) :keyword) (unintern 'abcdefg) :abcdefg => T T #:ABCDEFG
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2015-12-12T01:46:38Z jasom: clisp does it like sbcl
2015-12-12T01:47:03Z jasom: I want to know who the heck made that work correctly in CCL
2015-12-12T01:47:06Z Bike: did ccl do it that way deliberately?
2015-12-12T01:48:15Z jasom: whoa, ecl: (keywordp :abcdefg) => T
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2015-12-12T01:49:07Z jasom: (find-symbol "ABCDEFG" "KEYWORD") => NIL
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2015-12-12T01:49:25Z jasom: apparently ecl treats they keyword package as a complete special case
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2015-12-12T01:51:06Z Bike: ccl %insert-symbol doesn't have a note or anything, just special-cases keyword so that it's special/constant/bound to itself.
2015-12-12T01:51:09Z jasom: if you consider import to intern a symbol, then ccl is 100% correct by the spec
2015-12-12T01:53:01Z Bike: oh, i see. it's only like this because INTERN and IMPORT both call this internal %insert-symbol, and the binding is done there, instead of in intern or whatever
2015-12-12T01:53:15Z jasom: if, however, import does *not* intern a symbol,then it's incorrect
2015-12-12T01:54:01Z jasom: as (progn (import '(abcdefg) :keyword) abcdefg) => ABCDEFG
2015-12-12T01:55:52Z Bike: i'd look at how sbcl does it but M-. is still broken for whatever reason
2015-12-12T01:56:27Z jasom: Bike: IIRC it happens under the internal implementation of INTERN which is not invoked for IMPORT
2015-12-12T01:57:10Z Bike: figgers
2015-12-12T01:57:38Z jasom: nyef: what do you think?  Does import count as interning?
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2015-12-12T01:57:54Z jasom: "to look up the string in the package, returning either a symbol with that name which was already accessible in the package or a newly created internal symbol of the package with that name."
2015-12-12T01:58:27Z jasom: I would say it does not count as interning, since IMPORT does not return a newly created internal symbol
2015-12-12T01:58:37Z jasom: nor does it even create new symbol at all
2015-12-12T01:58:41Z nyef: Hrm. IMPORT is symbol designators, not string designators...
2015-12-12T01:59:38Z nyef: Oh, this is beautifully twisted: No, IMPORT doesn't count as interning... But FIND-SYMBOL does!
2015-12-12T02:00:01Z jasom: import has none of the features of interning, but neither does the definition of import require that you not do any interning
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2015-12-12T02:00:17Z axion: wow, I prompted quite the conversation
2015-12-12T02:00:22Z jasom: nyef: I don't know that find-symbol does, since it cannot create a new internal symbol
2015-12-12T02:00:46Z jasom: import definitely looks up a string in the package (checking for name conflicts)
2015-12-12T02:00:54Z nyef: Sure it does: If the symbol has been imported, it looks up the string in the package, returning the symbol with that name.
2015-12-12T02:01:10Z nyef: That is completely consistent with the definition of interning.
2015-12-12T02:01:35Z jasom: nyef: no it's not; it doesn't say "either looking it up and returning it, or creating a new one and returning it" it says "returning either ..."
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2015-12-12T02:02:08Z jasom: we may have surpassed the limits of the precision of english in determining whether or not FIND-SYMBOL interns
2015-12-12T02:02:40Z Bike: you've surpassed something, that's for sure.
2015-12-12T02:02:45Z jasom: lol
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2015-12-12T02:05:53Z nyef: Wait, why is it relevant if FIND-SYMBOL interns?
2015-12-12T02:06:10Z jasom: it's not for this particular issue
2015-12-12T02:06:24Z nyef: 11.1.2.3.1 clearly refers to the adjectival term, sense 2.
2015-12-12T02:06:56Z nyef: Except that it's taking up a verb slot in the sentence. Hrm.
2015-12-12T02:07:12Z nyef: This is like that one spot where there's a variable reference, and then, in parens, it says (function).
2015-12-12T02:07:30Z jasom: I disagree it refers to the stative passive form of the transitive verb
2015-12-12T02:07:33Z nyef: Or the other way around. I know it was some weirdly broken link semantic.
2015-12-12T02:07:41Z nyef: But the LINK is to the adjective.
2015-12-12T02:07:48Z jasom: because computers are dumb
2015-12-12T02:08:10Z jasom: links are non-normative
2015-12-12T02:08:21Z nyef: Okay, but if we're going with the intern v.t. entry in the glossary, it has to be sense 2.
2015-12-12T02:08:34Z jasom: why?
2015-12-12T02:08:34Z nyef: Because sense 1 only applies to strings, and we're given a symbol.
2015-12-12T02:08:40Z jasom: ah
2015-12-12T02:08:56Z Bike: X3J13 cleanup issue: include entirety of English and other grammatical structures in the glossary
2015-12-12T02:09:04Z jasom: lol
2015-12-12T02:10:09Z jasom: but we aren't talking about mapping symbols to a single canonical object, rather a string
2015-12-12T02:10:24Z jasom: so 11.1.2.3.1 is nonsensical
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2015-12-12T02:11:34Z nyef: I think that we can still rescue this: What if "when" in this case isn't a single event, but more a duration?
2015-12-12T02:11:48Z nyef: So "while" would be the better word choice, but in this case synonymous?
2015-12-12T02:11:50Z jasom: oh, if you use the adjectival form, and consider is interned to mean "to be made interned" then IMPORT does intern, but :foo does not intern
2015-12-12T02:12:45Z nyef: :foo would intern if there were not already such a keyword.
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2015-12-12T02:13:14Z nyef: There's special dispensation for that particular form of inter-package reference in the reader.
2015-12-12T02:13:16Z jasom: right, butr in the 11.1.2.3.1 sense it does not if there already is such a keyword, but in that case foo is already interned
2015-12-12T02:13:21Z SAL9000: On x86/x86_64, which garbage collector does SBCL use?
2015-12-12T02:13:38Z nyef: SAL9000: gencgc.
2015-12-12T02:13:40Z jasom: SAL9000: gencgc with a single stack
2015-12-12T02:13:54Z nyef: Right, the conservative form of the generational conservative garbage collector.
2015-12-12T02:14:09Z jasom: I believe ARM uses gencgc with the precise form, but there was talk of changing that for performance reasons
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2015-12-12T02:14:24Z SAL9000: Are it's trade-offs etc. documented someplace?
2015-12-12T02:14:56Z nyef: All other platforms, bar arm64 use cheneygc or can be built for either cheneygc or gencgc.
2015-12-12T02:14:59Z jasom: SAL9000: not really; it is a generational garbage collector with allocation pools for each thread and uses cheney's algorithm for collecting the nurseries
2015-12-12T02:15:04Z nyef: arm64 is gencgc-only
2015-12-12T02:15:26Z jasom: cheneygc is incompatible with threading
2015-12-12T02:15:33Z nyef: SAL9000: We had a discussion here earlier about GC in SBCL.
2015-12-12T02:15:41Z nyef: Within the past 24 hours, IIRC.
2015-12-12T02:15:48Z jasom: yeah, I *just* missed it
2015-12-12T02:15:49Z nyef: Certainly within the past 36 hours.
2015-12-12T02:15:56Z jasom: ~ 8am pacific time
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2015-12-12T02:16:48Z jasom: SAL9000: it's a stop-the-world, generational, copying GC, that tells you most of the tradeoffs
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2015-12-12T02:17:32Z SAL9000: Given the mention of nurseries I assume that small-and-short-lived objects get special treatment?
2015-12-12T02:18:06Z jasom: SAL9000: when we GC we first collect the nursery, and if that frees enough heap we stop
2015-12-12T02:18:18Z jasom: objects alive during this GC get promoted out of the nursery
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2015-12-12T02:19:34Z SAL9000: Makes sense. If I intend to write a soft-real-time application on CL, how could I go about reducing the impact of stop-the-world GC?
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2015-12-12T02:19:52Z jasom: SAL9000: don't allocate memory during latency-critical operations
2015-12-12T02:20:06Z SAL9000: Would explicitly calling the GC at intervals help?
2015-12-12T02:20:09Z jasom: SAL9000: or keep the heap small if a full gc is acceptible latency
2015-12-12T02:20:52Z jasom: yes explicitly calling GC at intervals *can* help, but you might also promote short-lived objects; if you're going to explicitly call it, I suggest you use (gc :full) to do so for various reasons including that
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2015-12-12T02:21:36Z jasom: in particular if you bound your heap size, you can have a soft-constraint on the time of a full gc, which would let you call it only when you know you have time, which reduces likelyhood of it happening at a bad time
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2015-12-12T02:22:18Z jasom: If you have a lot of long-lived objects that you want in RAM, consider allocating them on the C heap and accessing them through foreign-pointerns
2015-12-12T02:22:35Z jasom: this will hide them from the GC and reduce the time for a full GC
2015-12-12T02:22:46Z SAL9000: For long-lived - what about SB-EXT:PURIFY?
2015-12-12T02:22:58Z jasom: I don't think purify works on gencgc
2015-12-12T02:23:22Z SAL9000: the SBCL manual doesn't mention that, FYI.
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2015-12-12T02:24:18Z jasom: I may be wrong; I'm still learning the sbcl GC
2015-12-12T02:24:32Z SAL9000: speaking of foreign-pointers -- is it possible to pass lambdas etc. from SBCL to C functions, and then call them from C?
2015-12-12T02:24:42Z SAL9000: e.g. if I have an event-loop or something on the C side which wants to call-back into lisp
2015-12-12T02:24:54Z jasom: SAL9000: yes, CFFI calls them "callbacks"
2015-12-12T02:25:31Z jasom: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial_002dCallbacks.html
2015-12-12T02:25:37Z SAL9000: Uh... so, what does this refer to?
2015-12-12T02:25:38Z SAL9000: "Calling Lisp functions from C is sometimes possible, but is extremely hackish and poorly supported as of SBCL 0.7.5."
2015-12-12T02:25:44Z SAL9000: SBCL manual section 8.7.4
2015-12-12T02:26:14Z nyef: Purify was observed to actually slow things down on gencgc, and thus was disabled there.
2015-12-12T02:27:06Z nyef: Essentially, static space has to be scanned in its entirety for roots, while dynamic space can rely on the write barrier and related whatnot.
2015-12-12T02:28:01Z SAL9000: ah, because the pre-PURIFY stuff could be modified to contain pointers to GCable things...
2015-12-12T02:28:15Z nyef: lp 310198
2015-12-12T02:28:15Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/310198
2015-12-12T02:28:15Z jasom: SAL9000: CFFI uses an undocumented non-exported symbol from sb-alien to get it done
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2015-12-12T02:28:43Z nyef: This is the bug about the callback magic.
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2015-12-12T02:28:54Z nyef: ... Which isn't actually universally available in SBCL.
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2015-12-12T02:29:08Z jasom: nyef: oh, not all platforms support alien-lambda?
2015-12-12T02:29:10Z nyef: And the implementation is horrifying in several ways.
2015-12-12T02:30:56Z jasom: nyef: indeed, I feel dirty just reading this
2015-12-12T02:30:59Z nyef: Not available on Alpha or HPPA... Or SPARC.
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2015-12-12T02:31:38Z nyef: Available on x86, x86-64, ppc, mips, arm, and arm64.
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2015-12-12T02:31:56Z nyef: Yeah, that's all nine backends accounted for.
2015-12-12T02:32:19Z nyef: jasom: My question is, "why are we not sharing the :arg-tn methods with call-out?"
2015-12-12T02:33:25Z jasom: ;; FIXME: the saps are not gc safe
2015-12-12T02:33:40Z nyef: Heh. Where's that one?
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2015-12-12T02:33:53Z jasom: alien-callback-lisp-wrapper-lambda
2015-12-12T02:34:56Z xargs: Learning common lisp :)
2015-12-12T02:35:25Z nyef: ... What the...? Aren't those unboxed, aligned pointers on the C side, and thus FIXNUMs on the Lisp side? And pointing to stack space, not heap space?
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2015-12-12T02:37:37Z jasom: nyef: this is where my knowledge of sbcl internals is at its limit; I've only read the code, not changed it so I don't fully understand it
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2015-12-12T05:24:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-12T05:24:37Z minion: beach, memo from jasom: any garbage collection scheme can be made more thread friendly by allocating large chunks to each thread; then you get a linear reduction in the amount of lock contention for grabbing memory from the central pool.  Memory assigned to a thread but not yet allocated is then typically considered live by the GC.
2015-12-12T05:25:05Z beach: jasom: Thanks!
2015-12-12T05:26:36Z JuanDaugherty: that's true for cheney? does anybody use it?
2015-12-12T05:26:44Z JuanDaugherty: (in sbcl)
2015-12-12T05:27:37Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach
2015-12-12T05:27:43Z blub: hi beach
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2015-12-12T05:32:52Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: the sbcl cheneygc does not include this optimization; the gencgc does
2015-12-12T05:33:12Z JuanDaugherty: ah, thx
2015-12-12T05:33:52Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: beach's question last-night (his time) was if there was anything intrinsic the cheney that made it not amenable to threads, or whether it was an implementation detail of sbcl's
2015-12-12T05:34:57Z JuanDaugherty: ty, I'll look at it
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2015-12-12T07:01:39Z namespace: Best HTML parser?
2015-12-12T07:03:13Z beach: Don't know about best.  But this one is said to be "fault tolerant": https://common-lisp.net/project/closure/closure-html/
2015-12-12T07:04:15Z namespace: When I say 'best' I really mean "what's the standard one(s) I won't regret using".
2015-12-12T07:04:20Z namespace: Absolute best isn't really a requirement.
2015-12-12T07:05:53Z H4ns: i used https://github.com/copyleft/cl-html5-parser and it worked well for me
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2015-12-12T07:44:50Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-12-12T07:46:21Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2015-12-12T08:40:40Z Bike: the usual netlist format is sexps. whoda thunk it? capitalization makes it look more like autoCAD, though
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2015-12-12T13:03:28Z jangle: trying to use qtools, have a minimal app stood up.  i'm trying to find a way to retain a handle to the result of (make-instance 'qt-app) so that I can use swank to connect to a running lisp instance and modify the state of the application.  so far I can only redefine methods, and as long as I have ui functionality that exercises the methods things will work, but if I want to invoke methods from the repl,
2015-12-12T13:03:54Z jangle: what I try to do is, for example, instead of (with-main-window (window (make-instance 'qt-app)))
2015-12-12T13:04:23Z jangle: I do (setf *global* (make-instance 'qt-app)) then call (with-main-window (window *global*))
2015-12-12T13:05:03Z jangle: when I do this, qt complains about threading errors, and I imagine that is do to with the fact that *global* is defined in one thread (the main thread) while the call to (with-main-window starts up a new thread to actually run qt
2015-12-12T13:05:11Z jangle: but this is where I'm just guessing
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2015-12-12T13:27:12Z nyef: jangle: It's not so much that *global* is defined in a given thread, as (make-instance 'qt-app) is called in a given thread.
2015-12-12T13:28:18Z nyef: jangle: You might need to change the communication style used by swank, but I'm not in the least bit certain of the details.
2015-12-12T13:28:31Z nyef: Or it could be something else entirely, I just don't know.
2015-12-12T13:30:10Z jangle: hmm
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2015-12-12T17:09:00Z n2kra: nyef ? would this be relevent to jangle ? https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Multithreading.html#Multithreading
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2015-12-12T17:42:52Z n2kra: minion: show jangle https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Multithreading.html#Multithreading
2015-12-12T17:42:53Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``httpscommon-lisp.netprojectslimedochtmlMultithreading.htmlMultithreading''.
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2015-12-12T17:56:55Z n2kra: I keep thinking minion should have aliases, like Blake's 7 slave
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2015-12-12T18:28:08Z johns`: Wondering why (sb-ext:posix-getenv "SOME_EV") returns NIL, while the same call for "HOME" works as expected. SOME_EV is exported and visible in an SBCL started from the terminal. Not visible in an SBCL invoked via Slime.
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2015-12-12T18:34:03Z nyef: johns`: Might have something to do with your emacs configuration.
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2015-12-12T18:47:58Z Xof: processes starting from emacs inherit the emacs process' environment, not your shell's
2015-12-12T18:48:17Z Xof: so if for example your window manager started emacs, it might not have the same environment your shell does
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2015-12-12T18:53:54Z nyef: Yes, that was what I was trying to get at.
2015-12-12T18:54:20Z johns`: Many thanks, nyef and XoF.
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2015-12-12T19:20:44Z Jonsky: Weekend. Play time.
2015-12-12T19:21:00Z Jonsky: So I tried to write a programme to solve Picross / Hanjie.
2015-12-12T19:21:12Z Jonsky: And now I'm stuck.
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2015-12-12T19:36:38Z nyef: Jonsky: That's the incomplete run-length encoded image thing, right?
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2015-12-12T19:37:53Z Jonsky: nyef: yeah. It's fun to play with pencils so I thought maybe it's fun to play with lisp too.
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2015-12-12T19:39:47Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-12-12T19:40:19Z nyef: It's largely a matter of constraint propagation, isn't it?
2015-12-12T19:44:40Z nyef: And once you run out of the simple constraints to propagate, you start dealing with dependencies, looking to find options that can't work so that you can eliminate them from your search space...
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2015-12-12T19:48:31Z Jonsky: nyef: OK will look into that a bit.
2015-12-12T19:48:40Z Jonsky: nyef: Thanks for the tips.
2015-12-12T19:50:29Z Quadrescence: more lisp livecoding in 10 mins
2015-12-12T19:51:16Z eudoxia: oh boy
2015-12-12T19:52:37Z eudoxia: i hate how twitch requires flash
2015-12-12T19:53:55Z nyef: Huh? What? Livecoding?
2015-12-12T19:54:28Z Quadrescence: nyef, Programming On The Internet
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2015-12-12T20:47:49Z drmeister: Re: Handling documentation in Common Lisp -  I need to maintain a database keyed on (object doc-type) pairs to strings?
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2015-12-12T20:49:11Z nyef: drmeister: More-or-less, but you may find that it only needs to be objects of a certain type, and there are a limited number of doc-types. I forget the details.
2015-12-12T20:49:46Z drmeister: nyef: Thanks - I'm reading clhs documentation
2015-12-12T20:52:05Z ghost_: Good evening, there's someone that can teach me about lambda expressions please?
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2015-12-12T21:04:54Z phoe_krk: ghost_: tell me more
2015-12-12T21:05:06Z phoe_krk: what is that you don't understand?
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2015-12-12T21:05:44Z shka: ghost_: lisp or just lambda calculus?
2015-12-12T21:06:09Z ghost_: lisp
2015-12-12T21:06:12Z phoe_krk: shka: lambda calculus != (lambda () ...)
2015-12-12T21:06:18Z phoe_krk: and I think ghost_ means the latter
2015-12-12T21:06:49Z shka: phoe_krk: well, you never know
2015-12-12T21:07:13Z shka: ghost_: basicly lambda expression returns callable function object
2015-12-12T21:07:23Z shka: i don't know what else there is to say here
2015-12-12T21:07:40Z ghost_: ok
2015-12-12T21:08:31Z ghost_: thanks,
2015-12-12T21:08:52Z ghost_: about the high order functions in lisp?
2015-12-12T21:09:26Z shka: simply expression for functions that operate on other functions
2015-12-12T21:09:34Z shka: either return, or accept
2015-12-12T21:11:31Z ghost_: i understood, thanks, i appreciate your hel
2015-12-12T21:11:34Z ghost_: help
2015-12-12T21:12:41Z shka: ok
2015-12-12T21:13:00Z shka: ghost_: for example reduce
2015-12-12T21:13:04Z shka: or mapcar
2015-12-12T21:13:14Z shka: or curry from alexandria
2015-12-12T21:14:06Z ghost_: i know mapcar and how it function
2015-12-12T21:14:15Z ghost_: reduce not
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2015-12-12T21:36:47Z n2kra: when I wasn't sure what functions I needed bound to my first closure, I made an apply lambda to experiment at the REPL
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2015-12-12T22:03:50Z dreamaddict: I am not sure how to add outside modules to SBCL…I just need an md5 hash function in one of my programs
2015-12-12T22:03:59Z dreamaddict: code files, whatever
2015-12-12T22:04:10Z phoe_krk just interested one more person in Lisp. Yay.
2015-12-12T22:04:28Z dreamaddict: nice
2015-12-12T22:04:40Z dreamaddict: been telling my friend about how cool it is
2015-12-12T22:05:01Z dreamaddict: thank God I found LISP, I was getting severely burned out on trying to learn C++
2015-12-12T22:05:18Z blub: LISP
2015-12-12T22:05:48Z aeth: dreamaddict: Outside modules? Do you mean that you want to import something from a library? This is generally used for that these days: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
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2015-12-12T22:06:26Z dreamaddict: ah yes
2015-12-12T22:06:38Z dreamaddict: I saw that and asdf and was not sure of how to go about it
2015-12-12T22:06:54Z dreamaddict: quicklisp is the better one?
2015-12-12T22:07:01Z aeth: Quicklisp uses ASDF.
2015-12-12T22:07:17Z aeth: Quicklisp is the package manager.
2015-12-12T22:07:23Z dreamaddict: ok
2015-12-12T22:07:35Z dreamaddict: really do not know how to manage this sort of thing in LISP
2015-12-12T22:08:33Z dreamaddict: code portability still doesn’t make much sense to me, yet…if I wanted to send something that I coded in LISP to a friend, who has little or no LISP on his machine
2015-12-12T22:08:34Z aeth: For SBCL, you add a few lines to .sbclrc and then you can run (ql:quickload :foo) commands in the REPL.
2015-12-12T22:09:09Z dreamaddict: so running quicklisp once cements it into SBCL, into the config files or whatever so that it’s always there
2015-12-12T22:09:11Z aeth: You configure your project with some boilerplate to list its dependencies and if they're not in Quicklisp you can link to a local copy of the directory (assuming the project uses ASDF, which it should)
2015-12-12T22:09:33Z aeth: Then you can load your project through Quicklisp even though it's not actually in Quicklisp's repo.
2015-12-12T22:10:02Z aeth: The easiest way to run a program is to just launch it from the REPL (even a graphical program), e.g. in emacs SLIME.
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2015-12-12T22:10:16Z aeth: If you have to set up a binary, it's harder and implementation-dependent.
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2015-12-12T22:10:58Z aeth: dreamaddict: and yeah you follow the instructions in my link and (ql:add-to-init-file) is what adds it to the init file so Quicklisp always starts.
2015-12-12T22:12:22Z aeth: For a given project foo, you'll want a foo.asdf and a package.lisp. You can just look how other projects do this on Github. Then you can link to the directory of the project in ~/quicklisp/local-projects once quicklisp is installed and load it as if it is a quicklisp library.
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2015-12-12T22:13:01Z dreamaddict: ok quicklisp is loaded
2015-12-12T22:13:06Z aeth: It sounds a bit complicated, but you really only have to do all this work once because Quicklisp will keep working and you can just copy the ASDF/package boilerplate from project to project.
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2015-12-12T22:14:17Z aeth: dreamaddict: Okay, now you set up your project to have a foo.asd (replace "foo" with your project name) and package.lisp, and then link to the directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects (or wherever quicklisp installed itself)
2015-12-12T22:14:31Z aeth: Then you can load it via quicklisp and it will automatically load the dependencies
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2015-12-12T22:20:12Z drmeister: Is there a slime key binding for looking things up in the CLHS?  I see how to look up reader macros and format characters.
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2015-12-12T22:20:31Z drmeister: But C-h C-b   C-s hyperspec doesn't show anything
2015-12-12T22:20:50Z nyef: It's something like C-c C-d h maybe
2015-12-12T22:20:57Z nyef: Or C-c d h ?
2015-12-12T22:21:09Z nyef: But I think it might only do symbol names.
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2015-12-12T22:22:21Z blub: how do you look up reader macros and format directives
2015-12-12T22:23:04Z blub: hyperspec-lookup is just for symbols i just have that globally bound
2015-12-12T22:24:04Z dreamaddict: ok quicklisp has been installed, and I have my project file loaded in my editor (one lisp file)
2015-12-12T22:24:25Z dreamaddict: I have not worked at all with any kind of outside module manager in LISP at all ever
2015-12-12T22:24:52Z dreamaddict: the first thing I add is….hmmm.....
2015-12-12T22:25:56Z dreamaddict: guess I’ll check something else on github
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2015-12-12T22:27:10Z dreamaddict: that asd file is gnarly
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2015-12-12T23:40:13Z Polyphony: can anyone help me figure out what the key function is doing in this insert-sort example?  http://codepad.org/KErtn3kM
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2015-12-12T23:48:13Z Bike: that's what a usual CL function would call 'test'.
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2015-12-12T23:49:10Z Bike: it lets you use your own ordering. it could be written (if (< item (car li)) ...) and so on, but this makes it easier if you want to use string-lessp or something.
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2015-12-12T23:51:10Z Polyphony: thanks, I get it now.  using (insert-sort '(1 4 3) >) reverses output as expected
2015-12-12T23:52:54Z Polyphony: I come from a background of C and python, so I'm used to man-page style documentation, is there a similar location where I can search built-in functions and symbols other than the "common lisp hyper spec"?
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2015-12-12T23:58:11Z Bike: the hyperspec is the usual.
2015-12-12T23:58:17Z Bike: eg
2015-12-12T23:58:18Z Bike: clhs sort
2015-12-12T23:58:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm
2015-12-12T23:59:01Z Bike: i dunno what you mean by "man-page style", python's docs don't look remotely like man pages.
2015-12-12T23:59:51Z nyef: C documentation tends to BE man pages, though.
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2015-12-13T00:06:19Z Polyphony: well, I guess I meant "searchable" like how in c I can run a "tab-completed" `man malloc` or use python's `help(<module-name>)`
2015-12-13T00:07:14Z blub: m-x hyperspec-lookup has completion
2015-12-13T00:07:31Z nyef: Or you could use the DOCUMENTATION function from a REPL with completion.
2015-12-13T00:07:42Z nyef: Or even DESCRIBE.
2015-12-13T00:08:42Z Polyphony: cool, I was pretty much just browsing through and using the glossary of http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/ hoping to find an answer, and it was getting to be a pain in the neck
2015-12-13T00:09:21Z blub: apropos might help
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2015-12-13T01:58:43Z opcode: hey guys is cello usable?
2015-12-13T01:58:50Z opcode: their FTP seems to be down
2015-12-13T02:04:13Z dreamaddict: hey, what is the package that lets you work with byte vectors, convert strings to bytes, etc…?
2015-12-13T02:04:18Z dreamaddict: someone mentioned it to me a few days ago
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2015-12-13T02:24:00Z Bike: are you thinking of babel?
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2015-12-13T02:37:37Z dreamaddict: I…think so?
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2015-12-13T02:38:07Z dreamaddict: I was asking how I could work with byte arrays instead of string characters for a thing that I am doing, and someone mentioned a package…that name sounds familiar
2015-12-13T02:38:31Z dreamaddict: they said that using byte arrays could get the execution significantly closer to C speed
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2015-12-13T02:43:39Z Bike: well, byte arrays are in the standard. babel just does encoding and decoding to/from character sets.
2015-12-13T02:44:36Z dreamaddict: ah ok
2015-12-13T02:44:48Z dreamaddict: I’ll have to look that up a bit more
2015-12-13T02:45:00Z dreamaddict: shouldn’t require any extra package to go to and from regular characters, right?
2015-12-13T02:45:35Z Bike: no, it does. "regular characters" probably don't fit in a byte.
2015-12-13T02:47:07Z Bike: cl:char-code-limit is the highest character code, and it's probably going to be over 256
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2015-12-13T02:47:46Z Bike: so to get back and forth using a byte array you have separate encode/decode logic.
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2015-12-13T02:50:41Z dreamaddict: jeez…and here is me thinking that “regular characters” were the ones from the old school ASCII table
2015-12-13T02:50:45Z dreamaddict: that easily fit in a byte
2015-12-13T02:51:05Z dreamaddict: ok then I guess I’ll use babel for the encode/decode
2015-12-13T02:52:28Z Bike: you can't even write english with ascii very well, and there are several other languages in the world
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2015-12-13T02:53:01Z dreamaddict: can’t write english with ascii very well…?
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2015-12-13T02:54:54Z Bike: thinking you can get away with writing english with that few characters is, how you say, naïve
2015-12-13T02:55:44Z phf: i mean, he's using typographical quotes and ellipses in his text..
2015-12-13T02:56:07Z Bike: haha, you're right
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2015-12-13T02:56:28Z namra: greetings. is there something like clojurescript for common lisp?
2015-12-13T02:56:44Z dreamaddict: all I’m using are the keys on my keyboard :P
2015-12-13T02:57:28Z Bike: namra: parenscript is a lispy thing that compiles to JS. I think there are actual CL-in-JS things somewhere
2015-12-13T02:57:33Z dreamaddict: in the Terminal the same quote key that spits out “typographical quotes” in this chatroom, spits out a little quote character that has the same ASCII designation that it did on my keyboard from 30 years ago
2015-12-13T02:57:58Z Bike: “ and " are certainly not the same
2015-12-13T02:58:07Z dreamaddict: on my keyboard, they are the same key
2015-12-13T02:58:14Z dreamaddict: I am literally using the same key for both of those
2015-12-13T02:58:21Z Bike: well, okay, but that same key is putting out non-ASCII characters.
2015-12-13T02:58:33Z dreamaddict: in this chat program (colloquy) it is
2015-12-13T02:58:56Z phf: fancy that, i type russian with a ansi qwerty keyboard, so i suppose ascii is good enough for russian too
2015-12-13T02:59:03Z dreamaddict: in the terminal, it spits out a quote symbol that is recognized as a regular quote symbol by every compiler that I’ve worked with, that has an ASCII code that fits nicely into 8 bits without any crap
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2015-12-13T02:59:32Z dreamaddict: I get it, it’s the 21st century, the world ain’t 8 bit anymore
2015-12-13T02:59:50Z dreamaddict: but still…plain ASCII is not really *that* lacking for English
2015-12-13T02:59:53Z Bike: 7 bit
2015-12-13T02:59:56Z Bike: :p
2015-12-13T03:00:10Z dreamaddict: the table in my GWBASIC book from when I was a kid went up to 255
2015-12-13T03:00:22Z dreamaddict: the ASCII table
2015-12-13T03:00:26Z Bike: ah, standard ASCII is 7-bit. plenty of people extended it, of course.
2015-12-13T03:00:31Z dreamaddict: in the back of every computer language book I ever owned from the 90s
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2015-12-13T03:01:44Z phf: dreamaddict: this is tedious. you don't need a package to convert from ascii strings to octets and back. both operations are oneliners. if you want to do serious string support in your program though, you need something heavier, that's why most people just use babel
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2015-12-13T03:02:07Z dreamaddict: thank you
2015-12-13T03:02:13Z dreamaddict: I knew it didn’t have to be that big of a deal
2015-12-13T03:02:45Z dreamaddict: there is no need for serious string support in this case
2015-12-13T03:03:02Z phf: (map 'string 'code-char '(1 2 3 4)) and (map 'list 'char-code "foobar")
2015-12-13T03:03:30Z Bike: well, byte-arrays are easier than characters, in any case.
2015-12-13T03:03:39Z nyef: Does babel support the Mac OS Roman encoding ("macintosh" encoding) yet?
2015-12-13T03:03:40Z Bike: (make-array whatever :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)), bam
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2015-12-13T03:04:11Z nyef: (Yes, I DO still have to deal with that encoding several times a month.)
2015-12-13T03:04:46Z dreamaddict: sweet
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2015-12-13T03:05:14Z dreamaddict: then I guess the last question is, for comparing elements in two structures, does LISP go faster through a list or an array
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2015-12-13T03:05:59Z Bike: lists are usually O(n)ish access, arrays are usually O(1)ish access, so
2015-12-13T03:06:21Z nyef: ... (setf n 1) and use the lists? (-:
2015-12-13T03:06:27Z Bike: if you're mapping over them all at once it's probably some cache hardtodoness
2015-12-13T03:08:48Z Bike: it's probably nothing lisp-specific, really
2015-12-13T03:09:34Z dreamaddict: gotcha
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2015-12-13T03:35:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-12-13T03:36:49Z clintm: Morning, beach!
2015-12-13T03:37:49Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-12-13T03:40:51Z dreamaddict: hey as a new guy I’d just like to thank everyone in this room for officially being the most helpful programming IRC chat room I’ve ever been in
2015-12-13T03:41:06Z dreamaddict: keep being awesome
2015-12-13T03:41:30Z beach: It must be true.  dreamaddict is not the first one to say something similar.
2015-12-13T03:41:55Z dreamaddict: I haven’t tried all of them
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2015-12-13T03:42:00Z beach: Sure.
2015-12-13T03:42:03Z dreamaddict: but C++ was not nearly as awesome
2015-12-13T03:42:12Z dreamaddict: and probably, no one else is either
2015-12-13T03:42:43Z dreamaddict: probably because this is the awesomest language :)
2015-12-13T03:43:26Z beach: Must be.
2015-12-13T03:43:45Z beach: Let "SCL" stand for my planned effort to update the Common Lisp standard so that it is more strict (hence Strict Common Lisp).  Recall that a major restriction is that any implementation that is a conforming SCL implementation is also a conforming Common Lisp implementation.
2015-12-13T03:43:46Z beach: Now the question, prompted by my reading the logs about character sets: Would it be reasonable to be more specific about the character sets in SCL compared to the Common Lisp standard?
2015-12-13T03:45:36Z dreamaddict: I couldn’t possibly be informed enough to give a good answer to that question
2015-12-13T03:45:53Z dreamaddict: except to say that sometimes I just mean the plain ASCII table numbers for letters
2015-12-13T03:45:58Z dreamaddict: and can it just be that simple?
2015-12-13T03:46:05Z dreamaddict: in most languages, it is
2015-12-13T03:46:07Z dreamaddict: it seem
2015-12-13T03:46:08Z beach: Right, the question was directed to the few hundred more experienced participants. :)
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2015-12-13T03:47:22Z beach: And, no, ASCII is not enough.
2015-12-13T03:47:34Z beach: And it might be too restrictive too.
2015-12-13T03:48:09Z beach: For example, if some existing implementations use something else, then they will have a hard time becoming conforming.
2015-12-13T03:48:39Z nyef: beach: What about Scieneer Common Lisp?
2015-12-13T03:48:54Z beach: What about it?
2015-12-13T03:49:03Z nyef: It's also "SCL", isn't it?
2015-12-13T03:49:06Z beach: Oh, SCL?
2015-12-13T03:49:12Z beach: OK, I'll find something else.
2015-12-13T03:49:32Z nyef: See if you can get the GCL people to stop colliding with Golden Common Lisp while you're at it? (-;
2015-12-13T03:49:33Z beach: Consider my discussion to be wrapped in (let ((SCL ...)) ...)
2015-12-13T03:49:41Z beach: SCL is not the final name.
2015-12-13T03:49:50Z beach: That is not the point of my discussion.
2015-12-13T03:50:00Z beach: I am not suggesting that SCL be the final name.
2015-12-13T03:50:45Z beach: But I must refer to it somehow.  I have been using "Common Lisp version 2 which will be called something else to avoid confusion with CLtL2" but it's too long to use in each reference here.
2015-12-13T03:50:46Z clintm: I'm still waking up.  Are you asking about support in the (new) standard for utf-x character sets or have I not had enough coffee yet?
2015-12-13T03:51:32Z beach: clintm: Sort of.
2015-12-13T03:51:49Z beach: clintm: I am asking whether it would be too restrictive to add that to the standard.
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2015-12-13T03:52:17Z beach: This is not Python or any other language that can be altered according to the whims of a single person.
2015-12-13T03:52:29Z clintm: Thank god for that.
2015-12-13T03:52:34Z clintm: or whoever.
2015-12-13T03:54:15Z phf: apropos, is it conformant to make a lisp implementation where some code-char range is claimed to be say hiragana, and is written to a system stream as shift-jis?
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2015-12-13T03:55:15Z beach: Probably.  The standard allows for some radical implementation-specific extensions.
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2015-12-13T04:00:05Z nyef: phf: Yes, and if you are in a UTF-8 locale then SBCL does that.
2015-12-13T04:00:21Z nyef: Err, sorry, in a SHIFT-JIS locale, sorry.
2015-12-13T04:00:52Z nyef: (At least, I think it does. It certainly has the external-format support for it.)
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2015-12-13T04:12:46Z hijarian: Hi, guys, do we still have `(cl-l10n:parse-time)` avaiable somehow? It seems it was removed from their Darcs repo, and thus Lisp community doesn't have any means of locale-aware datetime strings parsing anymore.
2015-12-13T04:13:12Z hijarian: It would be very useful for me in the project I'm working in right now.
2015-12-13T04:14:05Z hijarian: They even list this function in the docs: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-l10n/docs/cl-l10n_3.html#IDX9 but actually there's no such code in the repo. :(
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2015-12-13T05:02:20Z phf: on sbcl, (string-to-octets (concatenate 'string '(#\CYRILLIC_SMALL_LETTER_A)) :external-format :shift_jis) --> #(132 112)
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2015-12-13T05:21:33Z lacedaemon: phf: a character is a string designator
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2015-12-13T05:26:11Z phf: i was confused because i didn't realize that jis x 0208 has cyrillic letters
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2015-12-13T05:35:36Z Quadrescence: Is there usable documentation of du.hwin.stefil anywhere?
2015-12-13T05:39:13Z Quadrescence: hu.dwim.stefil*
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2015-12-13T05:43:45Z White_Flame: I click in this window to check up on things, and accidentally "--> White_Flame has joined #\CYRILLIC_SMALL_LETTER_A".  Thanks, IRC client.
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2015-12-13T05:56:30Z fe[nl]ix: Quadrescence: M-. shall be thy documentation
2015-12-13T05:56:58Z Quadrescence: fe[nl]ix, figured as such
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2015-12-13T06:13:40Z pjb: beach: the problem of character sets is that character encodings is an external notion: files, I/O devices, etc.  Thankfully, in CL we distinguish character sets from character encodings (external-formats). So the question is what are the consequence of specifying eg. unicode version 8 for the character set, when running on an embedded system with only ASCII I/O support, or on an IBM mainfraime with EBCDIC I/O support.
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2015-12-13T06:14:30Z pjb: beach: also, remember that in CL, pathname components are specified as strings, and therefore there's an encoding involved in mapping system paths <-> CL physical pathname namestrings.
2015-12-13T06:15:48Z beach: Good points.  Thanks!
2015-12-13T06:16:00Z pjb: beach: the consequence of unicode version 8, is that it's big (will we be able to embed a full unicode version 8 implementation?) and it may be rather useless to have such a big char-code-limit, if the system only support ASCII.
2015-12-13T06:16:42Z pjb: Of course, we could exclude "small systems".
2015-12-13T06:16:52Z pjb: or "strange systems".
2015-12-13T06:17:38Z pjb: taking into account that a $5 credit-card form factor Raspberry Zero has 512 MB of RAM…
2015-12-13T06:17:39Z beach: Well, "if the system only supports ASCII" is not inevitable.  If we decide to require Unicode version 8 in "Strict CL", then such a system simply would not be conforming.  Hence my question.
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2015-12-13T06:18:52Z pjb: We could say that modern small systems are big enough to support uncode and CL, and consider that current CL cannot fit on the small embedded board like 8-bit Arduinos, so we have to consider subsets of CL for those embedded platforms.
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2015-12-13T06:19:40Z pjb: What I'm saying is that the choice must be made being concious of the requirements on the target platform.
2015-12-13T06:19:40Z beach: Defining subsets is an interesting idea.  Much harder to accomplish though.
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2015-12-13T06:19:50Z beach: Yes, absolutely.
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2015-12-13T06:22:28Z pjb: beach: now, you may have noticed how I wrote "unicode version 8".  If you specify a unicode, you have to choose a version, and it changes all the time, so your standard will have to change all the time too.
2015-12-13T06:22:44Z pjb: beach: therefore it may be better to not specify a specific character set.
2015-12-13T06:23:07Z beach: All valid points.
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2015-12-13T06:27:33Z beach: Also, as I have remarked before, once the door to modifications is open, it is reasonable to do it in several phases.  We can then start with the easy points, and leave more complicated points such as character set for later.
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2015-12-13T06:39:36Z beach: What should I call a class that is not a protocol class?  "concrete"?  "instantiable"?  Something else?
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2015-12-13T06:40:40Z beach: "implementation class"?
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2015-12-13T06:48:47Z White_Flame: I've heard "concrete" the most, but as the opposite to other languages' "abstract" classes
2015-12-13T06:49:24Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2015-12-13T07:03:52Z brianboyko: Howdy.  Anyone up?
2015-12-13T07:04:16Z dreamaddict: if a loop is collecting T/NIL values into a list, and that list is evaluated with an AND (which returns NIL is any value is NIL)…will the loop itself short circuit when it collects a NIL?  or is the loop fully collected before being evaluated?
2015-12-13T07:05:26Z H4ns: dreamaddict: when you say "evaluated", how are you doing that?
2015-12-13T07:05:42Z dreamaddict: a loop collecting results of comparisons into a list
2015-12-13T07:05:46Z dreamaddict: looping over an array
2015-12-13T07:05:58Z H4ns: dreamaddict: and then you're doing what, eval?
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2015-12-13T07:06:11Z H4ns: dreamaddict: show some code to make it clearer, paste.lisp.org
2015-12-13T07:06:33Z brianboyko: I'm coming from Javascript & Ruby. I'm on a Linux box.  How do I set up a Lisp programming environment?
2015-12-13T07:06:57Z dreamaddict: ok…I’m not sure how to write it still…I am new and still a bit fuzzy on what map-type function to use…one sec
2015-12-13T07:07:01Z H4ns: brianboyko: http://www.jonathanfischer.net/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ is still somewhat working.
2015-12-13T07:08:44Z dreamaddict: http://paste.lisp.org/display/166473
2015-12-13T07:09:05Z dreamaddict: that loop compares two objects that I have, and spits out a list of comparison results
2015-12-13T07:09:18Z dreamaddict: if any of them are nil, the whole thing should be nil
2015-12-13T07:09:47Z dreamaddict: the function using the loop either returns T if every comparison is T, or NIL if any of them are NIL…which is an AND, obviously
2015-12-13T07:10:07Z dreamaddict: I don’t know what to use to make it work with the least amount of iterating
2015-12-13T07:10:07Z H4ns: dreamaddict: you're collecting the results of the comparisons into a list.  no short-circuiting is going on.
2015-12-13T07:10:36Z H4ns: dreamaddict: you could use "WHEN <test> DO (RETURN NIL)"
2015-12-13T07:11:12Z dreamaddict: and have the loop be the test?
2015-12-13T07:12:07Z H4ns: no, (loop while ... when <test> do (return nil))
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2015-12-13T07:13:52Z H4ns: dreamaddict: http://paste.lisp.org/display/166473#1
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2015-12-13T07:19:17Z brianboyko: Quick question: is there any way to use common lisp without using emacs?
2015-12-13T07:19:44Z brianboyko: For example, running a *.lisp program from the bash command line.
2015-12-13T07:19:52Z dreamaddict: I use two terminal windows on this Mac, one has vim editing my lisp file, the other has SBCL REPL
2015-12-13T07:20:04Z dreamaddict: that’s one way to do it without emacs I suppose :P
2015-12-13T07:20:35Z H4ns: brianboyko: sure, but it will be much less pleasant.  the repl is the biggest advantage of common lisp, and the command line repl is much less capable than slime and emacs.
2015-12-13T07:21:00Z H4ns: brianboyko: that said, you can even use nano to edit your lisp programs.  it will be painful, though.
2015-12-13T07:21:11Z pjb: or just ed(1).
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2015-12-13T07:21:32Z blub: or you could use eg the lispworks ide
2015-12-13T07:22:14Z pjb: With a little imagination, using ed(1) is not that far from using punched cards…
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2015-12-13T07:22:25Z brianboyko: I just feel like a pig on rollerskates whenever I use emacs.
2015-12-13T07:24:35Z beach: brianboyko: If you use some inferior editor, then using Common Lisp will likely also give you a similar feeling.
2015-12-13T07:24:52Z brianboyko: I usually use Sublime Text.
2015-12-13T07:25:12Z H4ns: spacemacs is said to actually please some mac users
2015-12-13T07:25:49Z brianboyko: So, I've got a CL-USER> prompt up, in the bottom window.  What use is the top window then?
2015-12-13T07:26:14Z H4ns: brianboyko: you load your source file into it.
2015-12-13T07:27:28Z beach: brianboyko: If you have enough pixels horizontally, you might put the Emacs windows side-by-side rather than one above the other.
2015-12-13T07:27:53Z brianboyko: Okay.  So, how do I get the REPL to read the code in the buffer?
2015-12-13T07:28:19Z H4ns: C-M-x over the expression that you want to evaluate
2015-12-13T07:28:34Z Quadrescence: does someone have an example asdf file that has the test-op defined? I always forget the syntax and I'm not super good at navigating the ASDF documentation.
2015-12-13T07:28:44Z H4ns: brianboyko: this is the point where you reach out for the slime manual and read it.
2015-12-13T07:29:03Z brianboyko: "C-M-x" is undefined.
2015-12-13T07:29:17Z dreamaddict: did I hear someone say once that vim has slimv?
2015-12-13T07:29:18Z beach: Yeah, I was going to say that.  Learning Emacs + SLIME + Common Lisp by asking questions here is going to be painful to everyone.
2015-12-13T07:29:29Z brianboyko: Ah.
2015-12-13T07:29:32Z brianboyko: Yeah, I suppose it is.
2015-12-13T07:29:35Z brianboyko: Thank you for your help.
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2015-12-13T07:33:11Z Quadrescence: Actually, it looks like the ASDF manual is helpful here.
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2015-12-13T08:00:07Z hijarian: Hi, guys, do we still have `(cl-l10n:parse-time)` avaiable somehow? It seems it was removed from their Darcs repo, and thus Lisp community doesn't have any means of locale-aware datetime strings parsing anymore.
2015-12-13T08:08:53Z beach: Looks familiar.  You must already have said that.
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2015-12-13T08:30:27Z hijarian: beach: yup, I dared to spam a bit because of absence of responses. :)
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2015-12-13T10:36:34Z pjb: Before quicklisp, I (and probably other people too) tended to clone and gather copies of libraries found right and left, I would probably have a copy of the last cl-l10n:parse-time around, but since quicklisp, I rely on Xach :-(
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2015-12-13T11:02:07Z namespace: pjb: It sounds to me like people should start running mirrors of the QL repo.
2015-12-13T11:02:17Z blub: hi namespace
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2015-12-13T11:02:43Z namespace: Hi.
2015-12-13T11:02:47Z namespace is semi-surprised he's memorable
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2015-12-13T11:04:17Z blub: you're um right there
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2015-12-13T11:16:28Z easye: RE: cl-l10n If someone is interested, common-lisp.net can provide the last darcs repo on request.  Or someone with a c-l.net shell can simply access <file://common-lisp.net/project/cl-l10n/public_html/repos/cl-l10n/> themeselves.
2015-12-13T11:17:04Z easye: Small correction: e don't intend to serve darcs repos anymore, but we will be happy to give the underlying bits out to anyone who wants them.
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2015-12-13T11:18:27Z attila_lendvai: I'm just joining the discussion, but I'm an l10n committer, and I can access the darcs repo very well through ssh
2015-12-13T11:18:56Z attila_lendvai: shall I move it to hub.darcs.net? or just give in to the social pressure and move it to git?
2015-12-13T11:19:02Z easye: attila_lendvai: Right.  But we aren't supporting darcs via an anonymous access.
2015-12-13T11:19:22Z easye: attila_lendvai: common-lisp.net does not intend to change anything in the repo you have.
2015-12-13T11:19:35Z easye: And I understand the reluctance to move to git.
2015-12-13T11:19:36Z attila_lendvai: I'm not aware that I'm the maintainer, though... I just contributed a lot and since then no other committers seem to be active
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2015-12-13T11:19:58Z easye: Unfortunately, that probably makes you the de facto maintainer...
2015-12-13T11:20:27Z attila_lendvai: I personally still prefer darcs, but I'm also aware of the world around me
2015-12-13T11:20:31Z easye: common-lisp.net just no longer supports darcs as a "first class" service for anonymous access.
2015-12-13T11:21:14Z attila_lendvai: easye: it means there's no easy way to open http access to the darcs repo files?
2015-12-13T11:21:16Z easye: (not my personal choice to cut down on diversity)
2015-12-13T11:21:21Z attila_lendvai: (as a short term patch)
2015-12-13T11:22:51Z easye: Hmm.  <https://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-l10n-cl-l10n;a=summary> seems to be working.
2015-12-13T11:23:13Z easye: So, I would guess that reads would still work.
2015-12-13T11:23:16Z attila_lendvai: oh, everything works, the repo url, too: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-l10n/darcs/cl-l10n/
2015-12-13T11:23:34Z easye: Good.  One just can't push on non-SSH, I suppose.
2015-12-13T11:23:47Z attila_lendvai: yep, but that never worked
2015-12-13T11:24:04Z easye: Alright.  Nothing lost, little gained.
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2015-12-13T11:24:10Z attila_lendvai: so, is there anything that I need to address as the de factor maintainer?
2015-12-13T11:24:31Z attila_lendvai: IOW, shall I read the IRC log?
2015-12-13T11:24:55Z easye: Not from my side.  hijarian was looking for the source, not finding it in Quicklisp from what I can see.
2015-12-13T11:25:35Z easye: Wait.  hijarian was looking for CL-L10N:PARSE-TIME which seems to have disappeared from darcs.
2015-12-13T11:26:32Z attila_lendvai: he needs an old branch that conserved that state
2015-12-13T11:26:54Z easye: Is that functionality still present in another form?
2015-12-13T11:27:37Z attila_lendvai: I think it's half baked. the cldr database contains complex rules for date/time parsing and formatting, and I'm not sure about the parsing part
2015-12-13T11:27:55Z attila_lendvai: maybe I should just reinstate that function and mark it deprecated, because it's not the first time people miss it
2015-12-13T11:28:01Z easye: As de facto maintainer, then your task is to address its removal in some form.
2015-12-13T11:28:13Z easye: Or reinstate it in a form with WARN around it.
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2015-12-13T11:35:21Z easye: Preferably with an ability to muffle deprecation WARN programmaticly.
2015-12-13T11:37:02Z attila_lendvai: I think I'll just go with a comment for now. iirc that's a small-ish self-contained function
2015-12-13T11:37:52Z attila_lendvai ended up modernizing its asdf file
2015-12-13T11:40:00Z easye: attila_lendvai: Sounds good.  Much better than nothing!
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2015-12-13T13:02:39Z luis: attila_lendvai: I had a deja vu while replying to your last two cffi-devel emails.
2015-12-13T13:02:58Z luis: attila_lendvai: we've had a similar discussion 8 years ago. Back then you were playing with Verrazano.
2015-12-13T13:03:25Z luis: We're getting old!
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2015-12-13T13:06:26Z attila_lendvai: luis: ehh, indeed! :)
2015-12-13T13:06:55Z attila_lendvai: these damn source control systems record everything, makes nostalgia way too explicit! :)
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2015-12-13T17:32:27Z shifty: how does one retrieve the documentation in a (defpackage #:mine (:documentation "read me")) ?
2015-12-13T17:33:21Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/166512
2015-12-13T17:35:35Z phf: shifty: perhaps (documentation (find-package #:mine) t)
2015-12-13T17:39:31Z shifty: phf: oddly, that works.
2015-12-13T17:40:13Z luis: shifty: why is it odd?
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2015-12-13T17:43:09Z shifty: luis: I have not yet achieved a deep and comfortable understanding of packaging, so everything is a little odd!  I was expecting (documentation :mine 'package)
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2015-12-13T17:44:58Z luis: shifty: I see your point. I suppose it is inconsistent that function/type/variable documentation is indirectly attached to symbols whereas for packages/classes it is attached the actual objects.
2015-12-13T17:46:19Z luis: shifty: package names are strings though, so it would make a lot of sense to attach the documentation to a symbol, maybe?
2015-12-13T17:46:33Z shifty: luis: quite (although it would have taken me an hour to put it as succinctly as you just did!)  I'd settle for a footnote in CLHS (eg "how to retrieve the docstring")
2015-12-13T17:46:34Z luis: it would /not/ make a lot of sense, rather
2015-12-13T17:46:51Z phf: shifty: relevant bits are in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2015-12-13T17:47:14Z phf: in order to get documentation for packages, it says, you need to pass it a package object and doc-type eql t
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2015-12-13T17:48:01Z shifty: luis: exactly, although that's at my limit of understanding.  More contemplation required and then one day it will be easy.
2015-12-13T17:48:58Z shifty: phf: just because the documentation says something doesn't mean I managed to interpret it correctly!
2015-12-13T17:49:05Z phf: :)
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2015-12-13T17:50:12Z luis: shifty: FWIW, I also fumbled a bit trying to remember how to retrieve the docstring. BTW, the hyperspec page for defpackage links to the definition of "documentation string" which then links to the page phf mentioned. Granted, it's easier to find it after you know how it all generally works :)
2015-12-13T17:50:46Z shifty: same problem teachers have faced since the beginning of time - at the point we know enough to teach, we've forgotten what it was like not to know.
2015-12-13T17:53:17Z shifty: luis: bother, it does too.  still wouldn't have helped, didn't know how to supply the package object.
2015-12-13T17:53:24Z luis: The hyperspec is foremost a specification for people implementing Common Lisp compilers, so we have to cut it some slack. It's remarkably readable if you take that into account. :)
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2015-12-13T17:54:30Z luis: shifty: have you read Practical Common Lisp, http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html in particular?
2015-12-13T17:58:13Z shifty: luis: yes.  small pieces fall into place with each review and practice.
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2015-12-13T19:43:36Z luis: Any CCL users around that (would) like to trace setf functions and methods?
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2015-12-13T19:44:01Z luis: (using SLIME, I should mention)
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2015-12-13T20:16:33Z manornk: Hi all. I am beginner in lisp and wanted to ask something. First to say, I love it, but I can't but wonder what is it's use, other then AI in modern society?
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2015-12-13T20:18:48Z luis: manornk: here's a sample: http://franz.com/success/
2015-12-13T20:18:52Z axion: manornk: this channel is for Common Lisp, so i'm going to assume you're asking about that. It's pretty general purpose - there's a #lispweb for Web Development, and #lispgames for Game Development, to name a few
2015-12-13T20:19:20Z manornk: axion: I know. I am talking about common lisp.
2015-12-13T20:19:32Z manornk: luis: Thanks, let me check that :D
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2015-12-13T20:21:57Z manornk: This does look great. Thanks. Now I see what's it really
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2015-12-13T20:49:32Z phf: i'm new at lisp and i just wanted to ask, i was wondering, what's lisp use, i mean, besides, like, THE OPERATIONAL HARD AI HYPERCORE THAT'S CONTROLLING ALL OUR LIVES, i know is implemented in lisp, but, other then that? :o
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2015-12-13T20:53:11Z nyef: phf: Nonsense, everyone knows that the hard ai hypercore was bodged together with perl.
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2015-12-13T20:58:32Z shka_: nyef: that explains quite a lot
2015-12-13T20:58:54Z shka_: phf: it is quite good in web development
2015-12-13T20:59:11Z shka_: unlike python, some implementaiton offers real threads
2015-12-13T20:59:56Z nyef: (Unless you believe those conspiracy theorists who say that the whole "written in perl" thing is a cover-up, but even they can't agree on what it's a cover-up for.)
2015-12-13T20:59:57Z shka_: and we have things like blackbird and lparallel, making cl well suited for all sorts of parallel programming
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2015-12-13T21:00:29Z shka_: some people are using cl to build they own custom languages for certain domains
2015-12-13T21:00:43Z shka_: even HDL
2015-12-13T21:00:58Z shka_: franz offers graph data base
2015-12-13T21:01:13Z shka_: well suited for knowledge system stuff
2015-12-13T21:01:24Z phf: nyef: tell your lies to the robot inquisition you filthy lisper, everybody knows that it's LISP that's brought the AI scourge upon human kind
2015-12-13T21:04:50Z shka_: haha
2015-12-13T21:04:55Z shka_: seriously though
2015-12-13T21:05:08Z shka_: phf: it's not like cl is dominant tool in any area
2015-12-13T21:05:51Z shka_: but it is flexible and fast enough to solve broad range of problems
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2015-12-13T21:06:17Z shka_: we even have neat bindings to Qt
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2015-12-13T21:11:46Z shka_: phf: so perhaps you wanted to ask what you can build with cl instead?
2015-12-13T21:19:08Z zacts: yo lispers
2015-12-13T21:21:05Z Xach: yo
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2015-12-13T21:25:13Z Jonsky: BTW, should I just learn some perl just so I understand more about internet? or it's already replaced by python?
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2015-12-13T21:30:25Z Bike: i don't know what perl is going to tell you about the internet
2015-12-13T21:35:28Z Jonsky: You know people always say it's duct tape for the interweb...
2015-12-13T21:37:04Z Bike: you don't learn very much about machinery from learning about the duct tape hastily applied to it
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2015-12-13T21:37:50Z Jonsky: Bike: Oh right, silly me.
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2015-12-13T23:08:28Z jasom: Bike: you do learn about machinery from looking at *where* the duct tape has been applied
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