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C++ is an extremely complex language, as evidenced by the draft ISO standard. the syntax is so complex that common tools to parse and process programming languages fail to handle C++. the precise meaning of several of its constructs is still open to debate, and several vendors who have produced large C++ systems still disagree prof 2015-07-01T00:46:09Z gabriel_laddel: oundly on what they mean. C++ leaves a lot to the implementation for the same reason C does, but that reason was valid for C. the previous draft standard was rejected by the international programming language community, as being grossly inadequate for an international standard. it is unlikely that C++ will reach standard status for several years, still. even if it does become a standard, the vendors in the C++ m 2015-07-01T00:46:09Z gabriel_laddel: arket are not known for their willingness to follow standards in the first place, and some even make a point of doing weird things that lock you into their environment. the creator of C++, quote a Bell Labs proverd that "language design is library design", so you improve the C++ system to meet your needs by adding new objects and new functions for them, but you cannot expand on existing objects. it is possible to 2015-07-01T00:46:09Z gabriel_laddel: learn C++ well in about 18 months, but it takes several years to become, and constant vigilance to remain, an expert, since the language is still in flux. (I programmed in C++ for about a year (less than it took to learn it well, which is why I quit -- life is too long to know C++ well), but still help others understand C++ concepts by relating to other languages (typically C and Lisp) where the concepts are much b 2015-07-01T00:46:09Z gabriel_laddel: etter expressed.) 2015-07-01T00:46:44Z gabriel_laddel: also: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3103356827666810@naggum.no.html 2015-07-01T00:47:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T00:47:07Z gabriel_laddel: ^ re: C++'s standard. 2015-07-01T00:51:31Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T00:51:57Z pterygota joined #lisp 2015-07-01T00:52:20Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-01T00:52:29Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-07-01T00:53:04Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-01T00:57:33Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-01T01:01:32Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T01:02:19Z IPmonger__ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:03:38Z ronh left #lisp 2015-07-01T01:03:45Z IPmonger__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T01:03:59Z IPmonger__ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:04:05Z IPmonger__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T01:04:21Z IPmonger left #lisp 2015-07-01T01:05:39Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T01:06:08Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T01:07:14Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:07:46Z Bike: format incantation question: i have a list of lists, like let's say ((1 2) (2 3)). i'd like to print a comma separated list where each sublist has some sub-control-string, but i don't want to print the trailing comma. anyone know? 2015-07-01T01:08:09Z Bike: like, for ((1 2) (2 3)) maybe i want "1 + 2, 2 + 3" out. ~:{~d + ~d~^, ~} doesn't work. 2015-07-01T01:10:33Z nyef: Hang on, I've had to do something like this. 2015-07-01T01:10:43Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T01:13:10Z nyef: "~:{~d + ~d~#[~:;, ~]~}" ...) is probably not quite what you need, but could be in the right direction. 2015-07-01T01:13:16Z pillton: (format nil "~{~{~d + ~d~}~^, ~}" '((1 2) (2 3))) 2015-07-01T01:13:24Z nyef: Hrm. 2015-07-01T01:13:29Z nyef: Or that? I don't know. 2015-07-01T01:13:34Z Bike: gosh. 2015-07-01T01:13:50Z IPmonger_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:13:51Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:13:52Z Bike: well, it works. much obliged. 2015-07-01T01:13:58Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-01T01:14:22Z IPmonger_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T01:14:37Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:15:56Z eazar_refreshed quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-01T01:16:04Z pillton: Like regular expressions, FORMAT is remarkable and unmemorable. :) 2015-07-01T01:20:13Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-01T01:21:15Z ninja-maid-robot quit (Quit: brb everynyan) 2015-07-01T01:21:34Z IPmonger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T01:21:57Z drjeats: hi, I'm making a shitty toy lisp in C. I'm adding simple exception handling, and although the guide I'm following suggested a global exception state (like python), I think I'd rather add an IsError flag to a value's flags and check for that at appropriate times to start stack unwinding. am I about to make a horrible mistake? 2015-07-01T01:22:17Z Bike: "a value's flags"? 2015-07-01T01:22:18Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:23:46Z nyef: You might be about to make a mistake. Remember to decouple the unwind part from the finding a handler for the exception part, and allow the exception handler to chose from some set of "restarts", being different places to unwind to. 2015-07-01T01:24:15Z pterygota quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T01:24:22Z nyef: Or, more accurately, being different functions to run that unwind to different places. 2015-07-01T01:25:05Z mtd_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:25:24Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:26:12Z ninja-maid-robot joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:27:20Z drmeister: Warning: Don't purchase the "Let Over Lambda" book on Apple iBooks. The code samples are mangled to the point where they are unreadable. 2015-07-01T01:27:43Z nyef: You are obtaining a refund, I hope? 2015-07-01T01:27:51Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T01:27:52Z drjeats: nyef: is that for handling resumption? I'm not sure if I'm at the point where I can implement that, this is sort of a dopey recursive tree-walking interpreter 2015-07-01T01:27:53Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:28:18Z nyef: drjeats: Do you have BLOCK/RETURN-FROM, CATCH/THROW, or TAGBODY/GO ? 2015-07-01T01:28:36Z nyef: In the common-lisp sense, that is? 2015-07-01T01:29:23Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T01:29:42Z drmeister: drjeats: Stop - whatever you are doing - don't go further. Shitty toy lisps in C are a gateway drug to writing your own implementation of Common Lisp. Just stop - your wife and children will thank me. 2015-07-01T01:29:45Z drjeats: nyef: Just CATCH/THROW. I haven't delved into CL yet, only have done simple elisp and clojure so far 2015-07-01T01:29:46Z drmeister: :-) 2015-07-01T01:29:48Z nyef: (TAGBODY/GO and BLOCK/RETURN-FROM require lexical nesting to resolve the control-flow, but they are, fundamentally, unwind operations. CATCH/THROW uses an object as a catch tag.) 2015-07-01T01:30:09Z drjeats: drmeister: I appreciate your concern, lol. I'm not married though, so can I keep going? 2015-07-01T01:30:23Z nyef: Oh, and drmeister knows what he's talking about with simple toy lisps being gateway drugs. 2015-07-01T01:30:25Z drmeister: Oh - then knock yourself out. 2015-07-01T01:30:52Z drjeats: oh wait shit you're clasp guy 2015-07-01T01:30:58Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:31:10Z drjeats: the google talk you gave was really cool 2015-07-01T01:31:23Z drmeister: Oh thank you very much! 2015-07-01T01:31:24Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T01:31:41Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:32:47Z drjeats: @Bike (late response, soz!) I have a Value struct that has a type tag and flags field for stuffing things in. is that super gross? 2015-07-01T01:33:13Z Bike: kinda yeah 2015-07-01T01:33:32Z Bike: i mean, imagine trying to put that in a register for instance 2015-07-01T01:33:53Z drjeats: it's definitely...piggy 2015-07-01T01:34:06Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:34:29Z grees_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T01:34:29Z grees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T01:34:51Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T01:38:00Z IPmonger_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:38:01Z IPmonger_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T01:40:21Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:47:54Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:48:18Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-01T01:49:04Z drjeats: TIL about block/return-from and tagbody/go 2015-07-01T01:49:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:49:54Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-01T01:51:02Z drjeats: lots of stuff gonna need to change for version 0.0.0.0.2 2015-07-01T01:51:52Z drjeats: Bike: flags is gross, but unless you do NaN tagging, the type tag is at least required, right? 2015-07-01T01:52:27Z Bike: without type erasure, yeah 2015-07-01T01:52:58Z Bike: even then you can have integers by putting 30 bits or so in the high bits and use the lower two for tag, and stuff like that 2015-07-01T01:53:30Z drmeister: What is type erasure? 2015-07-01T01:53:30Z aap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T01:53:34Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:53:45Z drmeister: wiki has an answer 2015-07-01T01:54:24Z nyef: ... Is "NaN tagging" as twisted a concept as it sounds/ 2015-07-01T01:54:26Z nyef: ? 2015-07-01T01:54:33Z Bike: yes 2015-07-01T01:54:34Z drjeats: yup 2015-07-01T01:54:47Z Bike: it's just that there's a lot of bit patterns than mean NaN, so you stuff other stuff in there 2015-07-01T01:54:54Z Bike: if you hate truth and beauty 2015-07-01T01:55:43Z nyef: Using double-floats for all numbers, a NaN-type float for everything else, a handful of bits for actual type information, and the rest of the mantissa for pointer or immediate data? 2015-07-01T01:56:10Z Bike: yeah, something like that. 2015-07-01T01:56:22Z Bike: i don't know if any production system does it. maybe some javascript? i think that's where i heard of it. 2015-07-01T01:56:29Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-01T01:56:55Z nyef: That's... probably appropriate for a language with only the one numeric type, but at the same time fairly horrible. 2015-07-01T01:56:56Z Bike: JavaScriptCore in webkit, apparently 2015-07-01T01:57:10Z Bike: source: some blog post 2015-07-01T01:57:16Z drjeats: the wingolog one? 2015-07-01T01:57:31Z ryankarason is now known as anybody 2015-07-01T01:57:33Z Bike: yes 2015-07-01T01:58:11Z anybody is now known as ryankarason 2015-07-01T01:58:14Z Bike: as it also mentions, v8 doesn't do it because it just doesn't use tags in regs if there's enough information 2015-07-01T01:59:35Z vrrm joined #lisp 2015-07-01T02:00:43Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-01T02:03:36Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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No? 2015-07-01T03:08:01Z nyef: That I had. 2015-07-01T03:09:05Z nyef: But at the same time, there's some crazy stuff in this spec. 2015-07-01T03:09:51Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T03:12:09Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-07-01T03:13:52Z badkins quit 2015-07-01T03:18:20Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-01T03:22:55Z skalartheobsrvr joined #lisp 2015-07-01T03:28:51Z emaczen: What can I do when parenscript produces javascript that causes the browser a stackoverflow? I'm quite baffled considering the code is just: (loop ... collect (loop ... collect (funcall function args))) 2015-07-01T03:30:06Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-01T03:30:43Z Bike: well, look at the javascript, for one 2015-07-01T03:34:15Z Zhivago: javascript, like CL, has an implementation dependent stack depth limit. 2015-07-01T03:34:27Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T03:34:39Z Zhivago: The js backtrace should be illuminating. 2015-07-01T03:35:09Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T03:35:53Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T03:36:43Z emaczen: Zhivago: Where can I find the backtrace? 2015-07-01T03:40:20Z Zhivago: Perhaps window.onerror = function (errorMsg, url, lineNumber, column, errorObj) { console.log('' + errorObj.stack); } ? 2015-07-01T03:45:12Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T03:50:47Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T03:51:33Z FreeBird_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T03:54:54Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-01T03:57:34Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T03:59:13Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T03:59:48Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:01:14Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:04:04Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-01T04:05:18Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:06:30Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:08:03Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T04:08:24Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:08:36Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T04:09:09Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-01T04:10:22Z phf: is there a handy paredit function to reverse the order of sexp at current depth? 2015-07-01T04:10:56Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:13:24Z pjb: phf: no, but there's the standard emacs transpose-sexp command: C-M-t 2015-07-01T04:14:12Z pjb: minion: memo for contrapunctus: you can use a macro to denote tail calls that will hide the transformation into an iteration. Several of them float arround but it will probably be faster to write your own. 2015-07-01T04:14:12Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell contrapunctus when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-01T04:14:59Z pjb: minion: memo for contrapunctus: I wouldn't call "programmer" somebody who has difficulty reading a recursive function. 2015-07-01T04:14:59Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell contrapunctus when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-01T04:15:58Z heurist` joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:16:33Z kristof: recursive functions are often simpler that iterative ones. 2015-07-01T04:17:05Z beach: and iterative functions are often simpler than recursive ones. 2015-07-01T04:17:09Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-01T04:18:20Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T04:18:56Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:19:40Z nyef: Which is odd, because they're isomorphic. 2015-07-01T04:20:54Z nyef: Perhaps there's some sort of threshold effect in terms of the complexity of the control logic and the data flow involved in each step of the iteration or recursion? 2015-07-01T04:21:55Z nyef: (If this is the case, then one can determine an approximate value of the threshold and use it to define an heuristic for when to prefer one over the other.) 2015-07-01T04:22:02Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:22:16Z kristof: nyef: Easy. Is your datastructure recursive or not? 2015-07-01T04:22:21Z beach: I don't know. What I do know is that for traversing linear data structures such as lists or vectors, iteration is often easier, and for traversing more complex ones such as trees, recursion is definitely simpler. 2015-07-01T04:23:26Z nyef: Okay, with a tree the recursion is simpler because the information about the backtracking required is implicit in the control stack. 2015-07-01T04:23:48Z beach: Yep. 2015-07-01T04:23:48Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:24:08Z nyef: kristof: What if I'm stepping one of each? 2015-07-01T04:24:11Z beach: And with linear types, you often don't need to backtrack. 2015-07-01T04:24:53Z nyef: kristof: Worse, what if I'm _conditionally_ stepping one of each? 2015-07-01T04:25:08Z pjb: But even for multiple recursion (tree-like), it is sometimes better to use an iteration with an explicit stack. 2015-07-01T04:26:17Z kristof: :o 2015-07-01T04:27:05Z kristof: nyef: I would opt for a recursive algorithm still, and pass an iterator along as one of the arguments 2015-07-01T04:28:14Z pjb: My advice is to abstract it away using a macro, so you get the best of two: a recursive high level view, and an iterative implementation. 2015-07-01T04:29:07Z nyef: ... But do you? 2015-07-01T04:30:05Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-01T04:30:11Z nyef: After all, as soon as the use of the stack is made explicit (or tail-call optimization is involved), your recursive implementation becomes iterative. 2015-07-01T04:32:44Z Zhivago: Rather, as soon as you make it clear that backtracking is not involved, it becomes iterative. 2015-07-01T04:33:10Z Zhivago: Using a special stack for backtracking is just an implementation detail. 2015-07-01T04:37:52Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:40:01Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:40:41Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, Hunchentoot 1.2.32, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14 flexi-streams 1.0.15 2015-07-01T04:40:56Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, Hunchentoot 1.2.32, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14, flexi-streams 1.0.15 2015-07-01T04:46:25Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:47:30Z j4cknewt joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:48:41Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-01T04:49:40Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-01T04:51:54Z drmeister: beach: Hi - I asked about the convert-constant-to-immediate a couple of times but I kept forgetting to implement it. That's probably why you thought I'd implemented it. Sorry. 2015-07-01T04:52:16Z drmeister: By "forgetting" I mean distracted by other things that were broken. 2015-07-01T04:52:27Z drmeister: I just implemented it. 2015-07-01T04:53:31Z jlarocco quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-01T04:53:54Z skalartheobsrvr left #lisp 2015-07-01T04:54:17Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T04:55:44Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:58:38Z beach: drmeister: Great. 2015-07-01T04:58:44Z keen___________8 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T04:59:48Z keen___________7 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-01T05:01:09Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-01T05:01:43Z drmeister: As I mentioned yesterday, I have a compiler macro that converts (+ x y z) --> (two-arg-+ (two-arg-+ x y) z) 2015-07-01T05:01:54Z drmeister: Then to inline it I use something like: 2015-07-01T05:01:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/31H4V2pc/ 2015-07-01T05:02:29Z drmeister: I need to inline fixnump and a cleavir-primop:fixnump - correct? 2015-07-01T05:03:34Z beach: Is there a cleavir-primop:fixnump? 2015-07-01T05:03:41Z beach: If not, use TYPEQ. 2015-07-01T05:03:43Z drmeister: Not at the moment. 2015-07-01T05:04:06Z beach: OK, is there a fixnump instruction? 2015-07-01T05:04:20Z drmeister: Good question - checking. 2015-07-01T05:04:51Z beach: There is. 2015-07-01T05:04:54Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-07-01T05:05:21Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T05:05:51Z drmeister: I don't translate it to LLVM-IR. 2015-07-01T05:05:55Z beach: It is probably easiest to convert the TYPEQ ... FIXNUM AST to a fixnump instruction. 2015-07-01T05:06:10Z beach: That way we don't need to introduce new ASTs and new primops. 2015-07-01T05:06:42Z beach: You should translate that instruction to a few MIR instructions. 2015-07-01T05:07:12Z beach: Or, just one, I guess. 2015-07-01T05:07:25Z drmeister: Like this? ((and (typeq x fixnum-ast) (typeq y fixnum-ast)) 2015-07-01T05:07:27Z beach: Check whether the least significant bit is 0. 2015-07-01T05:07:34Z drmeister: Right. 2015-07-01T05:07:43Z beach: (typeq x fixnum) 2015-07-01T05:07:51Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T05:08:27Z beach: That will turn into a TYPEQ-AST with FIXNUM as the type. 2015-07-01T05:09:08Z beach: Then we can turn that AST into a FIXNUMP-INSTRUCTION. 2015-07-01T05:09:17Z drmeister: Checking... 2015-07-01T05:11:12Z moei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T05:11:48Z moei joined #lisp 2015-07-01T05:13:43Z j4cknewt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T05:14:01Z drmeister: Slime is compiling... compiling... compiling... 2015-07-01T05:14:35Z mtd_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T05:14:47Z drmeister: I screwed something up. (sigh) fixing... 2015-07-01T05:15:12Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-07-01T05:15:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T05:16:51Z phf: does sbcl have an equivalent of ccl's with-input-from-vector? 2015-07-01T05:19:58Z mtd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T05:22:06Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-01T05:22:17Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-01T05:23:02Z drmeister: beach: I think I screwed it up for the night - it's going to take me a while to fix this. So I'll work on it and get back to you in the next couple of days. If I can get TWO-ARG-+ to inline fixnum/fixnum addition then I can work on my own for a while implementing other primops. 2015-07-01T05:23:27Z beach: drmeister: OK. Take your time. 2015-07-01T05:24:57Z drmeister: Once I inline fixnum-+ and fixnum-< then I should be able to write some test code that does integer looping and arithmetic that doesn't cons anything and doesn't call out to any functions. That will be a good test of what I can achieve with LLVM-IR. 2015-07-01T05:25:24Z beach: Yes, I agree. 2015-07-01T05:25:40Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-01T05:26:10Z drmeister: "God made the integers, all else is the work of man." - Leopold Kronecker 2015-07-01T05:26:36Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T05:27:12Z easye: drmeister: Amen. 2015-07-01T05:29:46Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-01T05:29:48Z beach: drmeister: You seem to have created a significant fan club around Clasp. Congratulations! 2015-07-01T05:30:57Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T05:33:01Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-01T05:33:04Z akkad: CL on llvm has been the holy grail for some 2015-07-01T05:34:03Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T05:35:25Z drmeister: Thank you. 2015-07-01T05:36:12Z drmeister: Ah - my problem is my fasl file for ASDF is out of date. 2015-07-01T05:36:20Z drmeister: Recompiling. 2015-07-01T05:37:09Z drmeister: akkad: They put some effort into it at Google but gave up. I'm not sure how much effort. 2015-07-01T05:37:51Z drmeister: beach: It's only going to happen because of Cleavir. 2015-07-01T05:37:57Z beach: drmeister: Clearly, your excellent presentation skills play an important role. 2015-07-01T05:38:31Z beach: drmeister: Maybe you should figure out how to use those skills even more to your advantage. 2015-07-01T05:38:38Z beach: Like become a politician. :) 2015-07-01T05:39:05Z beach: Or just convince the NSF to let you give a presentation to support your grant proposeals. 2015-07-01T05:39:08Z beach: proposals. 2015-07-01T05:39:29Z beach: s/NSF/DoD/ 2015-07-01T05:39:36Z drmeister: Thank you. 2015-07-01T05:39:39Z drmeister: Working on it. 2015-07-01T05:40:02Z beach: drmeister: But I am probably not telling you something you don't already know. 2015-07-01T05:41:16Z drmeister: I can only speak that way because I've got a plan and I'm well along that plan. 2015-07-01T05:41:48Z beach: drmeister: Maybe so. But many people have a plan but are still unable to communicate it. 2015-07-01T05:42:24Z drmeister: Teaching undergraduate classes has been valuable. 2015-07-01T05:42:29Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T05:44:51Z syrinx joined #lisp 2015-07-01T05:47:11Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-01T05:47:23Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-01T05:48:20Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T05:48:38Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T05:48:58Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-07-01T05:51:28Z stevegt_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T05:54:25Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-01T05:55:46Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-01T06:00:13Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T06:00:35Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:03:26Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:03:43Z mrSpec quit (Changing host) 2015-07-01T06:03:43Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:05:23Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-01T06:08:42Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:09:22Z drmeister: convert-constant-to-immediate is working. 2015-07-01T06:09:45Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/hiEQRVu.png 2015-07-01T06:10:14Z drmeister: beach: This is produced from: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda (x y) (+ x y 123456)) :debug t) 2015-07-01T06:10:44Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:10:53Z cmack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T06:12:26Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-01T06:13:31Z otwieracz: Huh, nice. 2015-07-01T06:16:36Z drmeister: Hmm, but it crashes LLVM I think because I'm trying to put an integer into a pointer. 2015-07-01T06:19:40Z dnm joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:19:53Z dnm: Hi all. 2015-07-01T06:20:10Z dnm: What are people's favorites/suggestions for CL code to emit PostScript? 2015-07-01T06:20:19Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-01T06:20:44Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T06:20:54Z dnm: So far I've found: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/io/plisp/ && https://github.com/cage2/cl-pslib (binding to pslib, in C) && http://www.frank-buss.de/lisp/functional.html 2015-07-01T06:21:31Z dnm: Also looking at Vecto and CL-VECTORS, which don't handle PostScript per se, but I'll probably use Vecto too. 2015-07-01T06:23:32Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:24:54Z dnm: Also found some stuff in Scheme, but in here I'm looking at CL. ;] 2015-07-01T06:27:20Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:32:03Z zRecursive left #lisp 2015-07-01T06:32:29Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:33:44Z myrk2 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:34:49Z myrk2: As far as I can tell, I can't use split-sequence to split on multi-character "word" like "<>". Is there something else I can use to split a string when on <> occurrences? 2015-07-01T06:36:50Z drmeister: beach: Fixed the problem - convert-constant-to-immediate is working fine. 2015-07-01T06:40:39Z vrrm quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-01T06:41:13Z drmeister: beach: This is a simple dotimes loop 2015-07-01T06:41:22Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:41:38Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/bsHajlm.png 2015-07-01T06:42:22Z drmeister: Code: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda (x y) (dotimes (i 10) (+ x y))) :debug t) 2015-07-01T06:42:56Z drmeister: There are only three funcalls in this, two to TWO-ARG-+ and one to TWO-ARG-<. 2015-07-01T06:43:03Z drmeister: This is ready for inlining. 2015-07-01T06:44:35Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:45:25Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:45:40Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-01T06:48:07Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-01T06:49:08Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-01T06:50:32Z emaczen: Zhivago: Thanks, I figured out part of my parenscript issues but the stacktrace is unfortunately cryptic... 2015-07-01T06:52:53Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T06:54:55Z emaczen: Can someone help me with parenscript here? 2015-07-01T06:56:14Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:01:34Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:02:45Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:03:40Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:04:19Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:05:44Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:05:55Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:07:11Z Grue`: myrk2: ppcre:split 2015-07-01T07:07:30Z pjb: myrk2: there's a split-sequence-if 2015-07-01T07:07:34Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:07:44Z Grue`: it still splits on only one character 2015-07-01T07:07:45Z pjb: but indeed it works only for single elements. 2015-07-01T07:07:49Z pjb: yes. 2015-07-01T07:08:32Z myrk2: So I guess I'll end up with ppcre. 2015-07-01T07:08:39Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:08:48Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-01T07:08:53Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-01T07:10:08Z salv0 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:10:39Z Grue`: I always end up with ppcre 2015-07-01T07:11:06Z myrk2: c: 2015-07-01T07:11:57Z Zhivago: If you're dealing with that a lot you might consider using streams rather than strings. 2015-07-01T07:12:22Z Zhivago: ppcre is a reasonable choice if you're wedded to string butchery. 2015-07-01T07:13:39Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/RMzvfNj.png 2015-07-01T07:14:22Z drmeister: That calculates the Nth number in the Fibonacci series 2015-07-01T07:14:50Z drmeister: (time (foo 1000)) --> 113796925398360272257523782552224175572745930353730513145086634176691092536145985470146129334641866902783673042322088625863396052888690096969577173696370562180400527049497109023054114771394568040040412172632376 2015-07-01T07:15:59Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda (a &aux x (p1 1) (p2 1)) (dotimes (i a) (setq x (+ p1 p2)) (setq p2 p1) (setq p1 x)) x) :debug t) 2015-07-01T07:16:37Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:16:54Z myrk2: And when is this better than a simple sum loop? 2015-07-01T07:17:06Z drmeister: For some reason I feel better about that than I do that Clasp+Cleavir is self hosting. I guess it's because I can see the whole thing. 2015-07-01T07:17:23Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:17:34Z drmeister: What's a simple sum loop? 2015-07-01T07:17:53Z Zhivago: myrk2: When you don't want to confuse yourself with loop macro insanity because you are debugging a compiler. 2015-07-01T07:17:55Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:18:09Z drmeister: This is simple, it uses sums and it's got a loop. 2015-07-01T07:18:17Z jackdaniel: loop is horrible *shrug* 2015-07-01T07:18:31Z drmeister: Oh, LOOP 2015-07-01T07:18:32Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-07-01T07:18:50Z drmeister: Good night all. 2015-07-01T07:21:01Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:21:05Z myrk2: And when I have a better grasp of reading from streams, I'll consider dropping ppcre, but for now, I'm ok with reading it line by line, then splitting it. 2015-07-01T07:24:53Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:25:31Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:26:55Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:27:20Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:28:30Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:29:56Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:30:35Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:32:54Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:33:13Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:33:55Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:34:12Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:34:42Z RussT1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T07:35:21Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:35:33Z harish_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T07:36:18Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:37:25Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:38:20Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:45:40Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:46:57Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:47:35Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:48:12Z Beetny_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:48:50Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T07:48:55Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:49:56Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T07:52:53Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-01T07:53:05Z drjeats quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-01T07:55:09Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:56:05Z man213 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:56:55Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T07:57:19Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T08:00:16Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:02:42Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:05:08Z Borbus_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T08:06:13Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T08:07:28Z emlow quit (Quit: emlow) 2015-07-01T08:10:45Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T08:12:41Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-01T08:14:48Z loke: jackdaniel: Nothing horrible about LOOP. It embodies everythng that makes CL awesome. 2015-07-01T08:15:36Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:15:38Z jackdaniel: loke: arguably 2015-07-01T08:16:26Z p_l: my only issue with loop is lack of standard protocol for extensibility 2015-07-01T08:16:41Z p_l: (something that is common with normal sequence type) 2015-07-01T08:17:28Z jackdaniel: afair iterate does that (is designed to be extensible) 2015-07-01T08:17:46Z loke: p_l: I can agree with you there 2015-07-01T08:18:41Z loke: CL would benefit greatly from extensible sequences in any case 2015-07-01T08:18:49Z loke: SBCL has them, but being standard would be neat. 2015-07-01T08:19:36Z jackdaniel: abcl has them as well 2015-07-01T08:19:58Z loke: jackdaniel: Yes, and probably others too. But they all use different API’s :-( 2015-07-01T08:20:27Z jackdaniel: I think only sbcl and abcl implement extensible sequences 2015-07-01T08:20:45Z loke: Not even LW and Allegro? 2015-07-01T08:21:14Z jackdaniel: and api is clearly explained in paper, I see no reason to present incompatible apis 2015-07-01T08:21:20Z p_l: loke: the extensible-sequences code&spec was part of the CDR initiative 2015-07-01T08:21:41Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:22:06Z loke: Well that initiative was a termendous failure, with (as far as I know) exactly zero of them being actually implemented anywhere. 2015-07-01T08:22:08Z jackdaniel: p_l: which cdr? 2015-07-01T08:22:17Z jackdaniel: loke: not true 2015-07-01T08:22:19Z p_l: loke: two of them are 2015-07-01T08:22:25Z loke: p_l: which ones? 2015-07-01T08:22:33Z jackdaniel: cdr5 is implemented in ECL for instance 2015-07-01T08:22:37Z p_l: one is grandfathered in (MOP), the other is extensible sequences iirc 2015-07-01T08:22:49Z jackdaniel: p_l: which cdr treats about extensible sequences? 2015-07-01T08:24:02Z p_l: huh, just checked, it appears it isn't part of it... I was pretty sure that's where I have seen it 2015-07-01T08:24:29Z jackdaniel: but api is in paper 2015-07-01T08:24:37Z jackdaniel: I think it could end in cdr 2015-07-01T08:24:48Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:25:27Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-01T08:25:42Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T08:25:50Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:26:01Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T08:28:34Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:29:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T08:29:26Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T08:29:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:29:50Z radioninja_work joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:30:28Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:30:31Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for Xof: is there a chance that "User-extensible sequences in Common Lisp" will land in CDR (https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/)? 2015-07-01T08:30:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Xof when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-01T08:31:54Z tjscanlon joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:32:23Z tjscanlon: Hi, probably not the best place to ask this :) but is Common Lisp the best Lisp for writing commercial applications? 2015-07-01T08:32:45Z jackdaniel: it is considered production stable, so yes 2015-07-01T08:32:59Z jackdaniel: on the other hand clojure seems to be more common pick 2015-07-01T08:33:14Z jackdaniel: s/pick/choice/ 2015-07-01T08:34:11Z milosn quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-01T08:35:58Z H4ns: tjscanlon: "best" is heavily dependent on many factors, and "commercial applications" is not specific enough to narrow it down meaningfully. 2015-07-01T08:36:49Z H4ns: tjscanlon: if you provide more details about the type of applications you're thinking of, you may get a better answer, although #lisp is rather biased and "better answer" may not necessarily be "good answer" :) 2015-07-01T08:38:04Z emlow joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:38:04Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T08:38:22Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:39:27Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:40:07Z mulk_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:44:03Z mulk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T08:45:37Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T08:45:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:47:46Z emlow quit (Quit: emlow) 2015-07-01T08:49:07Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T08:50:03Z larocca quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T08:53:25Z emlow joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:54:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-01T08:54:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-01T08:54:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:00:43Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T09:05:51Z myrk2: Can I convert shift-jis to utf-8 with sbcl? 2015-07-01T09:06:20Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T09:06:55Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:07:41Z svetlyak_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:07:41Z svetlyak_ is now known as svetlyak40wt_ 2015-07-01T09:08:26Z dim: see babel 2015-07-01T09:08:32Z dim: and external-format 2015-07-01T09:11:29Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T09:12:09Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T09:12:37Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:13:18Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:13:21Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:17:22Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-01T09:18:52Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:25:58Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:28:20Z myrk2: Thanks dim; looking. 2015-07-01T09:28:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-01T09:30:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:31:51Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:32:41Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:33:41Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T09:34:37Z syrinx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T09:36:49Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:40:15Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-01T09:41:28Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-01T09:44:11Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-07-01T09:49:03Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-01T09:52:06Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:53:03Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:53:50Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:54:01Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:56:23Z jackdaniel: or flexi-streams 2015-07-01T09:56:58Z svetlyak40wt_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T09:57:31Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-01T09:57:37Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T09:57:41Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T09:58:11Z streptotrichosis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T10:00:27Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-07-01T10:02:50Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:04:09Z djh joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:04:16Z dim: well it depends if you convert from a file to another file or something else 2015-07-01T10:05:04Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:07:29Z dim: (with-open-file (i "..." :direction :input :external-format :sjis) (with-open-file (o :direction :output :external-format :utf-8) (loop for line in (read-line i nil nil) while line (write-line line o)))) 2015-07-01T10:10:23Z tjscanlon quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Only, the document I'm getting is from drakma. 2015-07-01T10:17:15Z myrk2: And afaict, drakma doesn't support sjis natively. 2015-07-01T10:17:39Z H4ns: myrk2: get it as octects from drakma, use babel to convert. 2015-07-01T10:18:04Z H4ns: myrk2: drakma uses flexi-streams, so if flexi-streams supports sjis, drakma should as well 2015-07-01T10:18:11Z myrk2: Ok, I'm trying to grok babel, but the documentation seem to be nonexistent. 2015-07-01T10:18:28Z myrk2: H4ns: not according to the flexi stream docs I read today. 2015-07-01T10:18:39Z H4ns: myrk2: not much more to it than babel:octects-to-string, i thought? 2015-07-01T10:18:50Z H4ns: myrk2: ok - i was not sure. 2015-07-01T10:18:52Z myrk2: I haven't even come across an example. 2015-07-01T10:19:11Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-01T10:19:38Z jackdaniel: (babel:octets-to-string vector-full-of-wild-octets-\o/ :encoding :utf-8-or-whatever) 2015-07-01T10:20:00Z myrk2: Ah, thanks. 2015-07-01T10:20:08Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T10:20:52Z jackdaniel: but flexi-streams have really nice documentation 2015-07-01T10:21:19Z svetlyak_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:21:19Z svetlyak_ is now known as svetlyak40wt_ 2015-07-01T10:21:37Z jackdaniel: one example of "teach not show" attitude 2015-07-01T10:22:06Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T10:22:13Z myrk2: Yeah, flex streams were ok; only sjis wasn't listed among the supported encodings. 2015-07-01T10:22:47Z jackdaniel: act now! that is - add it, so all can profit ::) 2015-07-01T10:23:43Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T10:24:30Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-01T10:27:27Z scymtym: jackdaniel: SBCL's extensible sequence protocol has been slightly extended (pun intended) compared to what the paper describes 2015-07-01T10:28:22Z jackdaniel: scymtym: thanks for info. Then I think it is even more important to write cdr with something, all can agree on (for compability sake) 2015-07-01T10:28:37Z jackdaniel: s/,// 2015-07-01T10:29:06Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:31:49Z scymtym: may be too early since the new stuff (specializable MAP, MERGE, CONCATENATE) has seen little use so far (as far as i know) 2015-07-01T10:33:33Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:34:11Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T10:35:06Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:35:52Z jackdaniel: is api prone to further changes? 2015-07-01T10:36:33Z svetlyak40wt_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T10:36:42Z kcj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T10:37:55Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:38:31Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-01T10:39:29Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:39:41Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:42:45Z svetlyak40wt quit 2015-07-01T10:49:44Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-01T10:51:34Z Guest6542 is now known as `micro 2015-07-01T10:52:21Z man213 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-01T10:53:02Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:53:46Z jackdaniel: is it me, or gitlab website is down? 2015-07-01T10:54:04Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:54:13Z scymtym: jackdaniel: re api change: that's hard to know until it gets used seriously. that was my point. 2015-07-01T10:54:29Z vydd: jackdaniel: 503 2015-07-01T10:55:48Z jackdaniel: scymtym: it's hard to use it seriously before wide adoption and while its not clhs compliant, cdr is semi-spec, what makes it more "adoptable" 2015-07-01T10:55:51Z jackdaniel: vydd: thanks 2015-07-01T10:56:04Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:56:25Z larocca joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:58:22Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T10:58:44Z Xach: jackdaniel: can you suggest an example of a cdr that somebody has used? 2015-07-01T10:59:32Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-01T10:59:45Z Ven_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-01T11:00:27Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/document/1/index.html (I know, I'm cheating a bit) 2015-07-01T11:00:31Z ferada: cdr 8 would be great to get more support for imo 2015-07-01T11:00:32Z scymtym: jackdaniel: i see your point, but tentative adoption could happen before a cdr since the implementation in SBCL is straightforward and well documented. on the other hand, once a cdr is accepted, it would probably be hard to make amendments based on experience using the extension. 2015-07-01T11:00:59Z scymtym is not saying a cdr is a bad idea in general 2015-07-01T11:03:21Z jackdaniel: scymtym: cdr's can be revised (ie cdr4 is revision of cdr0) 2015-07-01T11:05:46Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:05:57Z scymtym: then maybe first submitting the older part of the protocol as one cdr and later the newer part as another cdr "extended² sequence protocol" would be a possibility :) 2015-07-01T11:06:27Z jackdaniel: sounds good to me :) 2015-07-01T11:06:53Z Xach: Has anyone taken the cdr system seriously? 2015-07-01T11:07:13Z Xach: No time like the present, I guess. 2015-07-01T11:08:20Z jackdaniel: Xach: well, I do, don't understand your hostility to the idea 2015-07-01T11:08:39Z jackdaniel: it's better then incompatible extensions "fixing" stuff not covered in clhs 2015-07-01T11:08:42Z Xach: jackdaniel: I don't understand how it produces anything actually usable. 2015-07-01T11:08:54Z Xach: jackdaniel: Really? Has it done that? 2015-07-01T11:09:45Z Xach: I'm trying to understand a flow from cdr to useful functionality for a CL programmer 2015-07-01T11:10:11Z Xach: It seems to me that any cdr flow could also happen without the cdr process. 2015-07-01T11:10:17Z spintronic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T11:10:22Z jackdaniel: I think some ideas need time for adoption, and simple denial is something I don't understand 2015-07-01T11:10:41Z spintronic joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:11:38Z Xach: I think the CDR process has standardization backwards and cannot work. 2015-07-01T11:11:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:12:07Z jackdaniel: ack 2015-07-01T11:12:30Z Xach: It seems to me like ritual without results. 2015-07-01T11:12:53Z jackdaniel: I see potential to manage implementations extensions in compatible manner 2015-07-01T11:13:20Z jackdaniel: it's all about social agreement - it can be done w/o cdr 2015-07-01T11:13:36Z gabriel_laddel: does anyone know of a decent documentation of X events? 2015-07-01T11:13:38Z jackdaniel: libraries can be managed w/o quicklisp, but it's convenient to have central place for this 2015-07-01T11:15:58Z p_l: Xach: CDR -> example implementation (preferably public domain) -> inclusion in implementations -> ???? -> PROFIT ? 2015-07-01T11:16:53Z H4ns: p_l: it seems that so far, the process has not created notable successes in terms of inclusions in implementations. 2015-07-01T11:17:03Z Xach: p_l: I don't think the motivation is good enough for step 3 2015-07-01T11:17:57Z Xach: It's possible that one good counterexample will bootstrap the CDR system into relevance. 2015-07-01T11:18:22Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:19:21Z Xach: But "i have a good idea" -> "you should patch your implementation and maintain code for my idea" seems like a lot to ask, and the incentives have to be pretty good. 2015-07-01T11:19:28Z splittist: MOP -> Closer to MOP -> increased conformance at the implementation level 2015-07-01T11:19:46Z Xach: Closer-MOP is a great thing. Did that use the CDR process? 2015-07-01T11:19:56Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:20:05Z splittist: Gray Streams -> commonly included -> Simple Streams are better -> ??? -> trivial-gray-streams? 2015-07-01T11:20:22Z p_l: Xach: that's why I thought about requirement being the second step - a public domain implementation of the extension with instructions about possible inclusion way (extensible-sequences contains great examples!) 2015-07-01T11:20:24Z splittist: Xach: no - precisely 2015-07-01T11:20:59Z scymtym: Xach: while true, that seems a bit unfair since closer-mop doesn't have to touch many internals while things like extensible sequences or package-local nicknames probably have to 2015-07-01T11:22:45Z Xach: scymtym: I think inclusion in an implementations sets a pretty high bar that the CDR does not (and I don't think intends to) address. 2015-07-01T11:24:08Z scymtym: Xach: true, i just wanted to point that some things can (and maybe should be done) as libraries (plus maybe a bit of monkey-patching) while others cannot 2015-07-01T11:24:22Z scymtym: s/point/point out/ 2015-07-01T11:26:08Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:28:04Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T11:28:06Z yorick joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:29:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T11:30:08Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T11:32:11Z Xach: I like the idea of useful extensions that require implementation change. I don't think think the CDR process is a useful part of achieving that. 2015-07-01T11:32:23Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:33:44Z Xach: Maybe it's just the current way people seem to be using the CDR process. 2015-07-01T11:34:54Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:35:44Z scymtym: Xach: on a related note: what would it take for libraries using, for example, package-local nicknames to be accepted into quicklisp? 2015-07-01T11:36:09Z Xach: scymtym: compatible support for the feature from multiple implementations. 2015-07-01T11:38:46Z scymtym: Xach: i see, thanks 2015-07-01T11:39:51Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T11:40:27Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:46:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-01T11:48:05Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:49:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:50:26Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:50:44Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-01T11:55:04Z Xach: luis: I'm going to push a converted darcs repo of yaclml to github (unless you are on the verge of doing it yourself) 2015-07-01T11:55:58Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-01T12:02:21Z Baggers: AeroNotix: how is lispkit going? 2015-07-01T12:02:52Z AeroNotix: Baggers: hey, right now I'm super duper triple busy with work. It's serviceable and I use it when I don't need to get shit done ASAP. 2015-07-01T12:03:03Z AeroNotix: But there are some issues with it, I can't remember off the top of my head but yeah. YMMV 2015-07-01T12:03:11Z AeroNotix: also hi, love the work you've been doing 2015-07-01T12:06:19Z Baggers: thanks, I'm been using vimperator for ages but I'd love the cross that 'uncanny valley' between emacs and browser 2015-07-01T12:06:48Z gabriel_laddel: Baggers: conkeror? 2015-07-01T12:06:57Z AeroNotix: it works quite well for that. The keybindings and functionality provided is mostly there. There are some issues with e.g. link highlighting that cause browser lockups. 2015-07-01T12:08:01Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T12:08:15Z Baggers: gabriel_laddel: conkeror and vimperator (with emacs bindings) both have different strengths compared to each other. I just keep expecting emacs to have read the text in the browser when I autocomplete (like any other buffer) 2015-07-01T12:08:29Z kons joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:08:52Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:08:57Z Baggers: AeroNotix: Sounds like something to play with at home though. Have to be a bit more reliable at work though :D 2015-07-01T12:09:08Z AeroNotix: Baggers: yeah that's pretty much the state of things. 2015-07-01T12:10:15Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:10:25Z Baggers: cool thanks for the work on it! more cool toys to play with 2015-07-01T12:11:35Z AeroNotix: Np 2015-07-01T12:11:39Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:19:48Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-01T12:22:36Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:23:38Z Beetny_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T12:32:50Z luis: Xach: go for it! 2015-07-01T12:33:10Z newcup: Baggers: btw, recent emacsen have native browser called "eww", which works with some web pages 2015-07-01T12:33:47Z AeroNotix: https://db.tt/sp8KkSTR 2015-07-01T12:33:50Z AeroNotix: but looks like this 2015-07-01T12:34:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T12:34:53Z jackdaniel: o, polski gogl :D 2015-07-01T12:35:01Z Xach: luis: done & done 2015-07-01T12:35:03Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:35:11Z jackdaniel: s/gogl/gógl/ 2015-07-01T12:35:36Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:36:12Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-01T12:36:20Z jackdaniel: eww is nice for plain sites w/o js, but it binds #\& to external browser 2015-07-01T12:36:37Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T12:36:48Z Baggers: newcup: eww locks up emacs waaay to often 2015-07-01T12:37:09Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:39:04Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:39:36Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:40:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T12:41:48Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T12:41:51Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:43:46Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, etc.) 2015-07-01T12:43:56Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:45:17Z newcup: right. I've only used it with some simple documentation pages, which it seems to handle fine 2015-07-01T12:47:07Z heurist` joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:47:08Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T12:52:01Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:53:02Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T12:54:34Z luis: Xach: you've pushed the fix also, right? 2015-07-01T12:54:44Z Xach: luis: yes. 2015-07-01T12:54:53Z Xach: and an update to the README with some sharplispers info. 2015-07-01T12:55:15Z luis: nice job. Thanks! 2015-07-01T12:55:45Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:56:21Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T12:56:48Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T12:58:31Z streptotrichosis joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:59:06Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:59:32Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T12:59:47Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-07-01T13:00:04Z flip214 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T13:00:32Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-01T13:00:47Z dmitigr: hello 2015-07-01T13:03:00Z flip214 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T13:03:00Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2015-07-01T13:03:00Z flip214 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T13:05:41Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T13:05:43Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T13:07:45Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-01T13:08:13Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-01T13:08:31Z dmitigr left #lisp 2015-07-01T13:08:42Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-01T13:11:58Z svetlyak40wt 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A list or an atom? 2015-07-01T15:05:09Z jackdaniel: 23 files changed, 6 insertions(+), 272 deletions(-) \o/ 2015-07-01T15:05:22Z oGMo: also there is nothing guaranteeing termination; you could have nothing but list all the way down 2015-07-01T15:05:27Z oGMo: ggole: both a list and an atom 2015-07-01T15:05:39Z synergy_: Why is the second element of a cons object called the cdr? 2015-07-01T15:05:41Z Ettore quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T15:05:55Z loz: something - data - register 2015-07-01T15:05:59Z jackdaniel: it is historical name 2015-07-01T15:06:00Z Bike: it's "historical", meaning just gibberish 2015-07-01T15:06:00Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-01T15:06:02Z ggole: You could just say a cons or an atom instead then 2015-07-01T15:06:03Z loz: car is address register 2015-07-01T15:06:10Z jackdaniel: synergy_: you can safely use (rest list) instead of (cdr list) 2015-07-01T15:06:15Z Bike: like how "to be" somehow conjugates as "is" 2015-07-01T15:06:38Z loz: he just asked why, not what to use instead :D 2015-07-01T15:06:44Z eudoxia: i always use (first cons) and (rest cons) 2015-07-01T15:06:51Z eudoxia: i don't recall the last time i used car and cdr 2015-07-01T15:06:51Z ggole: Also, I would expect cyclic sexp-structure to break almost everything written to work over sexps 2015-07-01T15:06:53Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-01T15:07:02Z loz: car and cdr are simply shorter 2015-07-01T15:07:03Z jackdaniel: loz: ssh ;) but yes, mb 2015-07-01T15:07:04Z snafuchs joined #lisp 2015-07-01T15:07:05Z Xach: i use car and cdr when i'm working on conses as trees. 2015-07-01T15:07:11Z Xach: first and rest when working on them as lists. 2015-07-01T15:07:14Z clog joined #lisp 2015-07-01T15:07:25Z holycow joined #lisp 2015-07-01T15:07:26Z Xach: i don't work on them as trees that often, but when i do 2015-07-01T15:08:16Z loz: idk why are you so negative about car/cdr 2015-07-01T15:08:41Z sivoais_ is now known as sivoais 2015-07-01T15:08:45Z sivoais quit (Changing host) 2015-07-01T15:08:45Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-07-01T15:09:12Z synergy_: But what does decrement have to do with anything/ 2015-07-01T15:09:27Z synergy_: Is it like saying that the rest of the list is one decremented from the whole list? 2015-07-01T15:09:29Z jackdaniel: loz: I mostly use car/cdr 2015-07-01T15:09:42Z loz: yay, i'm not alone 2015-07-01T15:09:47Z Bike: synergy_: it's just a peculiarity of an ancient instruction set. it doesn't mean anything relevant. 2015-07-01T15:10:01Z pjb: not negative, but cons consp car cdr null is one abstraction layer, and list list* listp first rest second … tenth last butlast endp is another abstration layer. 2015-07-01T15:10:08Z pjb: Just don't mix your abstraction layers. 2015-07-01T15:10:26Z ThePhoeron_ is now known as ThePhoeron 2015-07-01T15:10:44Z Bike: nobody mentioned decrement registers, hmmmmmm 2015-07-01T15:10:46Z pjb: synergy_: that's even older than LISP! cf. http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html 2015-07-01T15:11:18Z pjb: Bike: it's actually Contents of Address or Decrement _part_ of Register. 2015-07-01T15:11:20Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-01T15:11:28Z loz: Bike: i believed it was data register 2015-07-01T15:12:47Z pjb: loz: nope, it's a nice trick if you write assembler code, instead of using a base address and a length, to represent your memory blocks, arrays, etc, use the address beyond the end, and a decrement offset. So instead of doing base+index, you do end-decrement. Then you have all kind of nice optimizations coming out. 2015-07-01T15:12:56Z shka_: synergy_: they picked names from instruction set, and they sticked rather well 2015-07-01T15:12:56Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-01T15:13:18Z pjb: the 7090 was a Lisp Machine. It even had a XEV machine instructions that was an EVAL. 2015-07-01T15:13:33Z synergy_: Lisp is interesting 2015-07-01T15:13:39Z pjb: With XEV, you could evaluate a "dynamic" instruction code. 2015-07-01T15:14:39Z pjb: synergy_: beside the address and decrement parts, there were also two 3-bit flag areas. With similar instructions to read or write them independently. So naturally they were used for type tags. 2015-07-01T15:15:14Z loz: so only nine types were supported? 2015-07-01T15:15:51Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T15:16:33Z Bike: obviously that's why there were no strings 2015-07-01T15:17:14Z nyef: ... Nine types? What? 2015-07-01T15:17:45Z loz: hm, two areas 2015-07-01T15:17:55Z loz: thats twice wore) 2015-07-01T15:17:57Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-01T15:17:59Z loz: more* 2015-07-01T15:18:16Z nyef: Two flag areas, presumably assigned one to the address field and one to the decrement field. 2015-07-01T15:18:22Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-01T15:18:34Z nyef: Each flag area is three bits => eight data types for the pointers? 2015-07-01T15:18:49Z Bike: 2*3 and 2^3 are basically the same, nyef 2015-07-01T15:19:17Z Bike: as is 3^2 2015-07-01T15:19:41Z williamyao: Within one order of magnitude is good enough, I guess. 2015-07-01T15:20:06Z nyef: (* 2 3) => 6, (expt 2 3) => 8, (expt 3 2) => 9. 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So nil is returned, unevaluated. 2015-07-01T15:56:11Z contrapunctus quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-01T15:56:12Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus 2015-07-01T15:56:18Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-01T15:57:01Z Bike: try writing eval (for a tiny lisp, not CL), it's a good exercise 2015-07-01T15:57:08Z synergy_: Then I'm confused as to why (list 'a 'nil) is equal to (cons 'a (cons nil nil)) 2015-07-01T15:57:29Z Bike: it's not 2015-07-01T15:58:03Z synergy_: No? 2015-07-01T15:59:14Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-01T15:59:14Z Bike: er, yes, it is, nevermind 2015-07-01T15:59:16Z dlowe: well, they both evaluate to (A NIL) 2015-07-01T15:59:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-01T15:59:38Z dlowe: NIL evaluates to itself 2015-07-01T15:59:51Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T16:00:08Z dlowe: so 'NIL evaluates to NIL through the QUOTE operator, but NIL evaluates to NIL from evaluation rules 2015-07-01T16:00:12Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:00:19Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:00:32Z pjb: Because CL:NIL is defined as (defconstant cl:nil 'cl:nil). 2015-07-01T16:01:08Z pjb: But notice that if you're in a different package with a different symbol named "NIL", then it may be different and you can have (not (eql nil 'nil)). 2015-07-01T16:01:23Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T16:01:34Z synergy_: Ok 2015-07-01T16:02:01Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:02:06Z synergy_: But 'nil represents data, correct? 2015-07-01T16:02:19Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:02:35Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:02:53Z pjb: yes, there are conotations. 2015-07-01T16:03:20Z pjb: () is empty list in code. '() is empty list as data. nil is false. 'nil is the symbol nil as data. 2015-07-01T16:04:16Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:04:56Z synergy_: I see. So what makes them different is only how they're represented? 2015-07-01T16:06:22Z pjb: how you write them in text. Once read, you have only two forms: CL:NIL and (CL:QUOTE CL:NIL) and when evaluated, both return the same object CL:NIL. 2015-07-01T16:06:26Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:06:57Z pjb: CL:NIL represents the empty list, the false boolean, the absence of value, the bottom type, etc. 2015-07-01T16:07:12Z pjb: (null (values)) --> t ;-) 2015-07-01T16:07:32Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:07:33Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:07:35Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:07:50Z synergy_: Ok. So what makes code different from data past how they're written in text? Like besides the quote, are '2 and 2 at all different? If not why differentiate them? 2015-07-01T16:07:57Z synergy_: Is it all semantic? 2015-07-01T16:08:41Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:08:45Z loz: synergy_: (eq 2 '2) => T 2015-07-01T16:08:47Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-01T16:09:00Z pjb: The textual representation we call S-expresions, or sexp, is a textual representation for lisp data. 2015-07-01T16:09:20Z loz: synergy_: 2 is evaluated to data integer holding a value of 2 2015-07-01T16:09:24Z pjb: (eq 2 '2) represents the lisp data (CL:EQ 2 (CL:QUOTE 2)). 2015-07-01T16:09:40Z loz: at least as I understand) 2015-07-01T16:09:49Z pjb: When we evaluate this lisp data, it becomes code. Code is data that is being evaluated. 2015-07-01T16:10:10Z pjb: When we compile this lisp data, it becomes source code. Source code is data that is being compiled into binary code. 2015-07-01T16:10:12Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:10:17Z synergy_: Whoa, epiphany. 2015-07-01T16:10:29Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T16:10:51Z pjb: Now the problem is that since we are evaluating our data as if it was code, we have to indicate that some parts of it is still some literal data, otherwise we couldn't write literal data in our code! 2015-07-01T16:11:01Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:11:06Z pjb: That's where the CL:QUOTE operator enters the scene. 2015-07-01T16:11:28Z pjb: Since it prevents evaluation of its argument, it allows to keep it its status of data. 2015-07-01T16:12:26Z pjb: synergy_: notice that the source code in lisp is not textual data, but lisp objects that are represented by S-expressions. 2015-07-01T16:12:30Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:12:57Z pjb: In all other programming languages (include scheme unfortunately), the source code is the text. 2015-07-01T16:13:09Z RussT2 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:13:34Z loz: pjb: including scheme? 2015-07-01T16:13:47Z reb``: loz: yes 2015-07-01T16:13:47Z pjb: Yes, scheme specifies the source as text. check r5rs. 2015-07-01T16:13:57Z loz: are you referring to their #lang? 2015-07-01T16:14:01Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:14:26Z pjb: synergy_: this note is important, because this is what allows to integrate a macro system, where a lisp function takes some lisp data, and produce some other lisp data, which is then taken as the source code to be compiled in place of the macro "call". 2015-07-01T16:14:27Z contrapunctus: loz: I'm under the impression #lang is a Racket thing, not a Scheme thing. 2015-07-01T16:14:27Z minion: contrapunctus, memo from pjb: you can use a macro to denote tail calls that will hide the transformation into an iteration. Several of them float arround but it will probably be faster to write your own. 2015-07-01T16:14:27Z minion: contrapunctus, memo from pjb: I wouldn't call "programmer" somebody who has difficulty reading a recursive function. 2015-07-01T16:14:44Z shka_: hi 2015-07-01T16:14:48Z RussT1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:14:58Z loz: can you give example how this affects scheme? 2015-07-01T16:15:06Z contrapunctus: pjb: cool, thanks! :) 2015-07-01T16:15:20Z shka_: so 2015-07-01T16:15:21Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:15:26Z pjb: loz: symbols are useless in scheme. 2015-07-01T16:15:43Z shka_: i have a form that calls make-array with fill-pointer = 0 but without adjustable 2015-07-01T16:15:53Z synergy_: So then what does 'a represent? 2015-07-01T16:15:58Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:16:08Z shka_: when i use this form in repl, it gives me something that i expect to see 2015-07-01T16:16:28Z shka_: however, i want to bind this array to the slot-value in object 2015-07-01T16:17:06Z shka_: and suddenly, this vector seems lost it's fill-pointer (it appears to have maximum size) 2015-07-01T16:17:18Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T16:17:19Z shka_: i don't know what it is happening 2015-07-01T16:17:30Z pjb: for example, in scheme, they have identifiers. 2015-07-01T16:17:34Z shka_: any hint? 2015-07-01T16:18:11Z pjb: shka_: something done by your program, not by lisp. 2015-07-01T16:18:30Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:18:34Z pjb: lisp never copies stuff (apart from numbers and characters passed as arguments). 2015-07-01T16:18:37Z shka_: let me paste 2015-07-01T16:19:07Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:19:17Z shka_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150927 2015-07-01T16:19:20Z shka_: that's all i do 2015-07-01T16:19:28Z pjb: you can use: array-has-fill-pointer-p 2015-07-01T16:19:50Z tokamach quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T16:19:56Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:19:57Z pjb: what does the next method do? 2015-07-01T16:20:19Z shka_: sets another value from base class 2015-07-01T16:20:24Z shka_: this one works 2015-07-01T16:20:53Z synergy_: What resources do you all recommend for learning lisp from scratch? 2015-07-01T16:21:03Z synergy_: Right now I'm reading LLTHW 2015-07-01T16:21:04Z shka_: synergy_: practical common lisp is good 2015-07-01T16:21:07Z oGMo: read a book and write some code? 2015-07-01T16:21:14Z shka_: pjb: this function returns nil 2015-07-01T16:21:35Z shka_: i'm running sbcl 2015-07-01T16:22:44Z oGMo: synergy_: no matter how many books you read, you won't learn much until you dive in and write something for real. follow idioms and practices (e.g. style things), but not dogmatically .. figure out why they're useful. read other code and see how it does things instead of asking. etc. 2015-07-01T16:23:06Z oGMo: pretty much how you learn anything 2015-07-01T16:23:32Z synergy_: I've been experimenting with things in the repl as I read right now 2015-07-01T16:23:47Z synergy_: Then asking questions if I don't understand something 2015-07-01T16:24:28Z oGMo: sure, but once you know enough things to write some real project, do it .. start with a .asd to load your code, make yourself a package, and add all your things 2015-07-01T16:25:11Z pjb: shka_: http://paste.lisp.org/+38GF/1 2015-07-01T16:25:25Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:27:23Z shka_: let my try exactly the same code 2015-07-01T16:27:58Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:29:33Z synergy_: pjb: So what's the difference in a list I have as data versus one as code if my elements are numbers? 2015-07-01T16:29:49Z synergy_: Since numbers evaluate to themselves 2015-07-01T16:30:16Z pjb: a list like (1 2 3) when evaluated gives a program-error, since 1 is not the name of an operator. 2015-07-01T16:30:54Z pjb: A list like (+ 1 2 3) when evaluated, evaluates the numbers 1,2 and 3 in that order ,then calls the function fbound to + with the values obtained. 2015-07-01T16:32:01Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:32:04Z pjb: happily, when you evaluate 1, you get 1. 2015-07-01T16:32:25Z pjb: all the lisp objects are self-evaluating apart from cons cells and symbols. 2015-07-01T16:32:35Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:32:36Z Shinmera: For those who use log.irc.tymoon.eu: There's been a couple of improvements and fixes. 2015-07-01T16:32:38Z pjb: So you need quote only for lists and for symbols. 2015-07-01T16:34:07Z shka_: pjb: i think i just managed to find bug in sbcl 2015-07-01T16:34:18Z shka_: after restarting inferior lisp it started to work 2015-07-01T16:34:29Z shka_: without changing anything in code 2015-07-01T16:34:51Z pjb: synergy_: however, you cannot put any random lisp object in the source code of a program, because when compiling it, those lisp objects must be serialized to the fasl file, and lisp knows how to do that only for its own types (with a few exceptions). For CLOS classes, you can define a MAKE-LOAD-FORM for your classes. 2015-07-01T16:35:01Z pjb: even quoted. 2015-07-01T16:35:50Z pjb: So instead, you can use load-time-value with an expression, lisp code that be compiled and that will be evaluated when the fasl file is loaded to build the random lisp object you want. 2015-07-01T16:36:07Z synergy_: So generally, the ' operator prevents non self evaluating code from being evaluated? 2015-07-01T16:36:23Z pjb: yes, or data in general. 2015-07-01T16:36:43Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:37:11Z synergy_: But in the case of something like '2, it just evaluates to 2. Can you go over why that is? 2015-07-01T16:37:12Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:38:37Z abbe_ is now known as abbe 2015-07-01T16:39:12Z RussT2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:39:20Z Shinmera: What else do you expect it to be? 2015-07-01T16:39:22Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:39:56Z pjb: (defun eval (form) (cond ((symbolp form) (get-variable-value form)) ((atom form) form) (t (case (first form) ((quote) (check-arguments 1 1 form) (second form) #| <-- because of that |#) ((if) …) … (otherwise (cond ((macro-function (first form)) (eval (macroexpand form))) (t (funcall (first form) (mapcar 'eval (rest form)))))))) 2015-07-01T16:40:22Z pjb: synergy_: there's absolutely nothing to fret about, just read the eval function. 2015-07-01T16:40:48Z pjb: 2 evaluates to 2 because ((atom form) form) 2015-07-01T16:41:00Z pjb: '2 evaluates to 2 because ((quote) (second form)) 2015-07-01T16:41:03Z pjb: and so on. 2015-07-01T16:41:39Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T16:41:47Z pjb: bbl 2015-07-01T16:43:26Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-07-01T16:44:47Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-01T16:49:41Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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In general one per file. 2015-07-01T17:43:38Z pjb: There are docstrings, from which documentation can be extracted. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/ 2015-07-01T17:43:38Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T17:43:39Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-01T17:43:45Z pjb: I didn't update it recently… 2015-07-01T17:44:16Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2015-07-01T17:44:36Z anunnaki quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T17:44:53Z anunnaki_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-01T17:44:57Z dkcl` joined #lisp 2015-07-01T17:45:41Z shka_: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq 2015-07-01T17:45:54Z shka_: that package name though :P 2015-07-01T17:46:16Z pjb: usually, you (defpackage … (:use :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence)) and use replace-subseq. 2015-07-01T17:47:10Z shka_: yeah 2015-07-01T17:47:48Z shka_: becuase i have no choice 2015-07-01T17:47:51Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T17:48:01Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2015-07-01T17:48:02Z pjb: And soon enough I'll write a CDR for relative package names, with patches for the various implementations, so… 2015-07-01T17:48:28Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T17:49:49Z pjb: (replace-subseq '(0) #(1 2 3 4) 2 2) --> #(1 2 0 3 4) 2015-07-01T17:50:04Z pjb: (replace-subseq "hello" #(1 2 3 4) 2 2) --> #(1 2 #\h #\e #\l #\l #\o 3 4) 2015-07-01T17:50:32Z pjb: (replace-subseq "bonjour" "hello world" 0 5) --> "bonjour world" 2015-07-01T17:51:38Z S4xS3: bonjour 2015-07-01T17:51:47Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-01T17:52:35Z hugomg joined #lisp 2015-07-01T17:53:04Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T17:53:38Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T17:53:51Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T17:54:16Z milosn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T17:54:26Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-01T17:56:01Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-07-01T17:56:17Z Jaskologist quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-01T17:56:48Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T17:58:30Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-07-01T17:59:01Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-01T17:59:30Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:02:05Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-01T18:02:11Z emaczen: So I'm stuck on a "faulty" parenscript conversion. I am passing a list of predicate expression to a macro such as ((< x 5) (/= y 8)) and the translated javascript converts the < and /= as strings, whereas lisp can just funcall those symbols... The translated javascript is: [['lessthan' 'x' 5], ['slashequals', 'y', 8]] 2015-07-01T18:02:14Z tkd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-01T18:02:46Z emaczen: The idea is to solve this with lisp macros so that I can run the same code in lisp and in the browser. 2015-07-01T18:03:22Z emaczen: jasom: Any ideas? You are the only other person I know who uses parenscript... 2015-07-01T18:03:37Z easye` uses parenscript. 2015-07-01T18:03:53Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T18:03:56Z pjb: ((< x 5) (/= y 8)) doesn't look like code. 2015-07-01T18:04:00Z cpopell2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T18:04:03Z pjb: Try: (list (< x 5) (/= y 8)) 2015-07-01T18:04:37Z Bike: i think the idea is there's some macro foo st (foo ((< x 5) (/+ y 8) ...) ...) is valid? 2015-07-01T18:04:42Z S4xS3 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-01T18:04:47Z emaczen: Bike: Correct 2015-07-01T18:05:03Z pjb: check the macro then. 2015-07-01T18:05:29Z emaczen: easye': Any ideas? 2015-07-01T18:05:39Z emaczen: pjb: It works fine in Lisp 2015-07-01T18:05:57Z Bike: i think the problem is that the parenscript transpiler is translating symbol names as data in a different way than as code, and it's not working out great 2015-07-01T18:06:08Z pjb: the javascript macro. IIRC they're distinct from the CL macros. 2015-07-01T18:06:23Z pjb: s/java/paren/ 2015-07-01T18:06:56Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:07:03Z emaczen: Bike: You are correct, it is converting the symbols < and /= to strings and then it tries to use them as functions... 2015-07-01T18:07:17Z brpocock: I've toyed with Paren, but ... what are you hoping to get as the output? Something like function (x,y) {x<5; y != 8;} ?? 2015-07-01T18:07:18Z emaczen: In lisp this is fine since those symbols have functions associated with them 2015-07-01T18:08:04Z Bike: any chance you can hack it and do "function lessthan (x,y) { return x < y; }" 2015-07-01T18:08:46Z emaczen: brpocock: I think if I can get the symbols < and /= to be translated to functions just like Bike is saying then it will work but I don't know how to get it to do that... 2015-07-01T18:09:20Z emaczen: Like, a macro named "<" that expanded to function(x, y) { return x < y; } 2015-07-01T18:09:20Z brpocock: You could provide them yourself, in a pinch. :-/ 2015-07-01T18:09:42Z emaczen: It doesn't expand to that when I call my macro though :-/ 2015-07-01T18:10:02Z emaczen: Let me try making a paste... I think this is more complicated than it looks 2015-07-01T18:11:18Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:11:31Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:11:37Z cpopell2 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:11:39Z brpocock: I'm seeing it like the Lisp gets a list of expr's and evals them, but the JS gets an array of arrays of (fbound-symbol) (params...) and doesn't have a way to eval them? 2015-07-01T18:12:22Z emaczen: brpocock: Yes, the symbols actually end up being strings and then the javascript error is "string is not a function" 2015-07-01T18:12:57Z brpocock: so [ [ 'fn', 'arg0', ... ] , ... ] you'd prefer as like [ function (arg0, ...) { fn(arg0, ...) }, ... ] ,,, except that even still, "<(x, 4)" isn't valid JS? 2015-07-01T18:13:25Z ggole quit 2015-07-01T18:14:00Z brpocock: So probably something like ( mapcar #'paren:eval-to-js-* list-of-function ) is needed (but I don't know the name of that bit) ? 2015-07-01T18:14:44Z emaczen: brpocock: Yes, I think It wouldn't be too hard once it evaluate to <(x, 4) 2015-07-01T18:15:16Z brpocock: :-/ and that would yield at best function () { return x < 4; } ... assuming that x is lexically bound at the time the function "function" is called, it'll be closed over then. 2015-07-01T18:15:38Z Bike: i think without actually seeing some code i can't do much more than speculate wildly 2015-07-01T18:15:52Z emaczen: Bike: Agreed, I'll finish the paste. 2015-07-01T18:18:20Z tjscanlon joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:21:32Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:23:05Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T18:23:15Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+38GN -- let me know if you need any clarifications. 2015-07-01T18:23:25Z emaczen: I tried to make everything as clear as possible 2015-07-01T18:23:59Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:24:57Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:30:07Z brpocock: At first blush, I'd say, JS has no analogue to "funcall" since there are no first-order symbols, so you would need to either implement something to emulate it, or compile the predicate-list in Lisp on its way out :-/ 2015-07-01T18:31:28Z emaczen: brpocock: (funcall fn x y) seems to translate to fn(x, y) in parenscript 2015-07-01T18:31:31Z brpocock: I'm assuming that the "where" expressions are being created at run-time from user input, though, so that means more like writing a "funcall" interpreter that understands the strings that the symbols are translated into :-( ;;; disclaimer: barely have used Parenscript at all 2015-07-01T18:32:01Z brpocock: But (I may be wrong) that is only in the case where "fn" is a constant? 2015-07-01T18:32:33Z Baggers: brpocock: Out of curiosity how well do js symbols (https://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Symbol) relate to our cl ones? 2015-07-01T18:33:19Z brpocock: That's ES6, I haven't "seen it used" yet, but I think it's roughly the same concept as keywords, roughly. 2015-07-01T18:33:37Z brpocock: Or uninterned symbols, more like. 2015-07-01T18:33:57Z Baggers: brpocock: interesting, thanks 2015-07-01T18:34:14Z brpocock: ie Symbol("x") ≠ Symbol("x") (which I didn't know until reading that) 2015-07-01T18:34:36Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-01T18:35:15Z Baggers: oh..yeah I didnt see that either 2015-07-01T18:35:25Z brpocock: but Symbol.for("x") = Symbol.for("x"), like a keyword; that's what I was thinking-of. 2015-07-01T18:35:30Z emaczen: I wish Lisp was the language in the browsers.... 2015-07-01T18:35:40Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T18:35:58Z brpocock: I say Kw because they can't be (afaik) coërced into fns or vars 2015-07-01T18:36:15Z nalik891 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T18:36:52Z emaczen: Is it reasonable to file this as an issue for the parenscript project? 2015-07-01T18:36:57Z emaczen: or "bug" 2015-07-01T18:37:19Z Xach: emaczen: If it were me, I'd start a discussion on the parenscript list first. 2015-07-01T18:37:32Z Xach: It's possible that you may find expertise there that is missing from #lisp 2015-07-01T18:38:03Z emaczen: Xach: Cool, I'll try that, and thanks for the input (I haven't used too many mailing lists yet) 2015-07-01T18:38:09Z emaczen: So I don't always think of it. 2015-07-01T18:39:05Z emaczen: brpocock: Thanks for the effort, I bet hacking at funcall in Parenscript is the correct solution. 2015-07-01T18:41:46Z zematis joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:42:41Z dnm joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:43:43Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T18:44:39Z zematis quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T18:45:44Z Oladon: Sigh. There are never any Lisp jobs on HN's "Who's Hiring" 2015-07-01T18:46:03Z Natch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T18:46:33Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:47:41Z shka_: Oladon: yup 2015-07-01T18:47:52Z aluchan joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:49:38Z pjb: instead check https://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ 2015-07-01T18:49:49Z Oladon: Aye, I keep up with that one, but there are rarely posts there either. 2015-07-01T18:50:03Z pjb: Also, http://ravenpack.es has a permanent CL job offer. 2015-07-01T18:50:23Z pjb: http://www.ravenpack.com/company/careers/ 2015-07-01T18:50:41Z Oladon: Yeah, not moving to Spain. 2015-07-01T18:50:50Z pjb: Marbella is a nice place. 2015-07-01T18:50:57Z Oladon: No doubt. 2015-07-01T18:53:12Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:54:11Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:54:16Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:55:30Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-01T18:57:30Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:57:52Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-01T18:58:16Z duggiefresh is now known as Guest84827 2015-07-01T18:58:25Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I just injected a suggestion to look into Clasp. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9810342 2015-07-01T19:32:10Z drmeister: There, I posted this to a discussion on Racket: I've implemented a Common Lisp that interoperates with C++ and uses LLVM as the backend because I was motivated by the same shortcomings in traditional software development languages and tools (https://github.com/drmeister/clasp). I choose Common Lisp rather than Scheme because the killer feature of Lisp is 2015-07-01T19:32:10Z drmeister: Macros and they are easier to use in Common Lisp than they are in Scheme. Also, Slime (Emacs interface to Common Lisp) is one of the most powerful software development environments available IMHO. 2015-07-01T19:32:14Z Bike: he talks about scheme on twitter sometimes. 2015-07-01T19:32:19Z drmeister: I may have kicked a hornet's nest. 2015-07-01T19:32:30Z drmeister: Bike: Yeah, I've been reading his posts about it for years. 2015-07-01T19:32:37Z pjb: They're transfuge, they used to do it with CL. 2015-07-01T19:33:15Z Bike: Transfuge? 2015-07-01T19:33:38Z pjb: treators if you will. 2015-07-01T19:33:58Z Bike: oh. who, oculus? 2015-07-01T19:34:04Z ilya joined #lisp 2015-07-01T19:34:06Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T19:40:57Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T19:42:04Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-01T19:42:14Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-01T19:44:32Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T19:49:49Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-01T19:49:54Z brpocock: +1 drmeister, I hope to be switching ecl→clasp whenever we have some ‘safe down time’ to refactor our C++ binding code as well. 2015-07-01T19:53:30Z IPmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T19:56:21Z IPmonger_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T19:58:20Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T19:59:34Z Fare: how's clasp doing these days? 2015-07-01T19:59:42Z Fare: I finally watched the boston talk video... GREAT! 2015-07-01T20:00:28Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:02:07Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:03:51Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:05:02Z Shinmera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T20:05:10Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:05:14Z dnm joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:05:46Z isoraqathedh quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-07-01T20:06:04Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T20:06:38Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T20:07:49Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:10:00Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T20:11:49Z isoraqathedh quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T20:12:02Z tjscanlon quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-01T20:13:04Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:13:17Z tjscanlon joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:14:04Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T20:15:16Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T20:16:25Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:16:47Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:17:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:19:06Z jackdaniel: brpocock: :( 2015-07-01T20:21:18Z Fare: jackdaniel, how actively are you working on ECL? 2015-07-01T20:21:38Z jackdaniel: well, last two weeks were pretty fruitful 2015-07-01T20:21:40Z Fare: interested in fixing the linking bug that prevents using bundle-op ? 2015-07-01T20:22:21Z ilya quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T20:22:33Z jackdaniel: obviously, however can't fix a few things at the same time, so have to prioritize them - like openbsd threads bug 2015-07-01T20:23:02Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T20:23:05Z jackdaniel: but I want to look into it next week (have to actually work on my company, which is in its infancy :p) 2015-07-01T20:23:12Z jackdaniel: a well that is 2015-07-01T20:23:15Z jackdaniel: s/a/as/ 2015-07-01T20:23:58Z jackdaniel: anyways, I'd say pretty actively 2015-07-01T20:24:03Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:24:48Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-01T20:26:28Z frankS2: Anyone know of a good apache kafka library for SBCL? 2015-07-01T20:27:14Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-01T20:27:48Z jackdaniel: in the meantime gn all \o 2015-07-01T20:28:37Z Baggers: jackdaniel: goodnight 2015-07-01T20:32:01Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T20:33:44Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:34:00Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T20:35:14Z synergy_: So I've read in one place that earmuffs notation is used for dynamically scoped variables and from another place that it's used for global variables? Is a global var dynamically scoped? 2015-07-01T20:35:18Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:36:02Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:36:16Z williamyao: defparameter and defvar create dynamic variables, yes. 2015-07-01T20:36:30Z williamyao: clhs defparameter 2015-07-01T20:36:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 2015-07-01T20:37:20Z digiorgi left #lisp 2015-07-01T20:38:20Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T20:41:30Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:47:03Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:47:53Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T20:47:57Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:51:26Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:54:16Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T20:54:25Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-01T20:54:46Z drmeister: What's a good reference (Naggum?) for why CL is better for macros than Scheme? 2015-07-01T20:55:23Z drmeister: Something more accessible than Let Over Lambda 2015-07-01T20:56:32Z Shinmera: Are you looking for Naggum's namespaces/hygiene article or something else? 2015-07-01T20:56:44Z nyef: You are in dangerous waters, my friend. 2015-07-01T20:57:22Z drmeister: The Naggum post on hygiene was great. 2015-07-01T20:57:36Z Shinmera: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3236789642671151@naggum.net.html 2015-07-01T20:59:27Z Bike: this is, uh. naggum sure was psychologistic at times 2015-07-01T21:00:21Z Bike: also not about macros, but i guess shinmera said that 2015-07-01T21:00:36Z Shinmera: It's tangentially about macros. 2015-07-01T21:00:43Z nyef: The root argument may be viable, but the presentation is fairly inflammatory. 2015-07-01T21:00:52Z Bike: classic naggum 2015-07-01T21:01:57Z Bike: well, personally, i like lisp macros cos it's just a function. it takes a form that's probably a cons and returns another form that's probably a cons. scheme does the same basic thing, i think, but the whole pattern matching business means another layer to keep track of mentally 2015-07-01T21:02:30Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-01T21:05:53Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:08:25Z jself joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:09:02Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-01T21:09:22Z A205B064 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T21:13:15Z brpocock: jackdaniel: ECL working all right for us, but we're using it embedded in a large third-party C++ environment (UnrealEngine) and bindings are kinda a huge pain :-( 2015-07-01T21:14:03Z Shinmera: brpocock: I'm sure drmeister (as well as many others) would be more than overjoyed to see Clasp interacting with Unreal. 2015-07-01T21:14:24Z brpocock: jackdaniel: planning to contrast clasp with its shiny LLVM integration — since the C++ thing's all LLVM anyway — and see if it'll reduce the work a bit. 2015-07-01T21:14:31Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-01T21:15:05Z brpocock: It'll be as open-source a binding as possible; ie, we plan to share it, within the confines of the Unreal license. 2015-07-01T21:15:34Z brpocock: https://www.unrealengine.com/eula § d. 2015-07-01T21:15:52Z synergy_: Is there a big enough difference between slimv and slime to pick slime and emacs? 2015-07-01T21:16:06Z Shinmera: From what I've heard, yes. 2015-07-01T21:16:06Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:16:57Z brpocock: So it's basically BSD/MIT-type licensing, but we'll have to confirm somehow that you're an Unreal licensee (which is kinda an open question that we may eventually need to escalate with Epic, at some point) 2015-07-01T21:17:16Z frsilent_ is now known as frsilent 2015-07-01T21:17:24Z frsilent quit (Changing host) 2015-07-01T21:17:24Z frsilent joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:17:48Z whiteline: brpocock: sounds nice, you're an indie dev team? 2015-07-01T21:18:45Z brpocock: Our big restriction was that we target ARM (Ouya) and that pretty much had/has ruled-out Clasp (still true;?) 2015-07-01T21:19:11Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T21:20:42Z brpocock: Yeah, side job, we're developing a “little” single-player game as a sort of stepping-stone to being a new front-end for my WIP Lisp rewrite of our MMORPG engine. (The current, ActionScript/Flash front-end was owned by another co. I used to work for, who finally finished going out of business last fall.) 2015-07-01T21:20:55Z williamyao: synergy_: I've used both, and from what I can tell, no. You've got pretty much all the things you'd want to use in both; evaluating and compiling from within a source file and by region, expression, toplevel form etc; stepping through stack frames and examining variables in the debugger; macroexpansion; symbol completion; and function description/hyperspec lookup. I found slimv a little clunkier and the facilities for moving around 2015-07-01T21:20:56Z williamyao: within s-expressions wasn't as nice, but they're about equal in features. 2015-07-01T21:21:17Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:23:35Z DrWat joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:24:08Z DrWat quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T21:24:12Z synergy_: Alright, thanks 2015-07-01T21:24:43Z synergy_: I can tell that this is a partly opinion based topic 2015-07-01T21:24:56Z synergy_: But I'm not doing anything intricate yet so I think slimv will be fine 2015-07-01T21:26:06Z synergy_: Heh, at this point I really wouldn't able to know if one was better than the other since I don't know about the features I would need or whatever else 2015-07-01T21:26:53Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T21:26:58Z williamyao: comma-c, comma-d, and comma-a are all you really need anyways :D 2015-07-01T21:27:45Z Bike: wait, does clasp even have anything arch specific? i thought the compiler just put out llvm-ir and used mps for memory 2015-07-01T21:28:44Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:29:32Z drmeister: I didn't put any architecture specific stuff in there other that 64-bit words. 2015-07-01T21:31:47Z Bike: uh, well, that rules out ouya's processor then. 2015-07-01T21:32:05Z drmeister: I'm purposefully keeping 32-bit option alive. Nanobots will be 32-bit before 64-bit. 2015-07-01T21:32:46Z brpocock: +1, sorry, yeah. Not all-ARM, but my-ARM is a problem. Although I'd love to have time to explore it. 2015-07-01T21:33:24Z Bike: on the bright side you've halted the ouya grey goo apocalypse... for now 2015-07-01T21:34:25Z drmeister: Grey goo no. A bright future for all yes. 2015-07-01T21:35:13Z Bike: i suppose i should update my jokey fearmongering, you've probably heard grey goo enough that it's just irritating 2015-07-01T21:35:41Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:36:10Z drmeister: Grey goo is silly and darn near impossible. Choking on our own trash is far more likely unless I have something to do with it. 2015-07-01T21:38:21Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:38:24Z aluchan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T21:38:35Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:40:13Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T21:43:17Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-01T21:45:01Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T21:45:49Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T21:48:15Z nell joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:53:33Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T21:54:53Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-01T21:55:00Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T21:55:16Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:56:52Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-01T21:58:41Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-01T22:02:48Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-01T22:03:08Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:05:59Z tkd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-01T22:08:34Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-01T22:09:24Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:10:06Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:10:37Z cluck: drmeister: grey goo can be absolutely real, we call them bacteria and fungi and algae, fortunately they usually lack intent and coordination 2015-07-01T22:10:42Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T22:10:54Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:11:20Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-01T22:11:39Z Bike: meister got a feynman award in nanotech, none of us really need to tell him about it (and i don't need to make tired jokes) 2015-07-01T22:12:15Z bege quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T22:13:05Z bege joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:13:28Z cluck: drmeister: flesh eating bacteria is totally a thing we worry about creating in hospitals (tl;dr has happened, fortunately quickly contained) and that's by accident (evolution), i dread imagine what a similar _designed_ machine would be capable of 2015-07-01T22:13:44Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-01T22:14:28Z DNoved1 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:14:31Z Baggers: dreading to imagine things doesnt seem pay off well in the long run 2015-07-01T22:16:56Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T22:17:43Z Baggers decides he should stick his nose in the debate and scuttles away 2015-07-01T22:17:49Z Baggers: shouldn't 2015-07-01T22:17:52Z Baggers: damnnit 2015-07-01T22:18:18Z cluck: Bike: i realize that, and in day-to-day i agree with his standing because most professionals capable of doing it won't. but accidents and malice exist and so we should keep such lessons and warnings in the back of our minds, lest we repeat what happened in the '60s, which set back nanotechnology research by at least 20 years 2015-07-01T22:21:31Z williamyao quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T22:21:32Z oGMo: LSD? i'm not sure that was a setback.. 2015-07-01T22:21:43Z oGMo: and this is all horribly off-topic ;) 2015-07-01T22:22:02Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:22:56Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-07-01T22:23:51Z IPmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-01T22:24:13Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:24:19Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:26:14Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-01T22:27:35Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:29:00Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:30:53Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:30:59Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-01T22:32:15Z mc40 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T22:32:18Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T22:32:19Z aeth: Hmm... Isn't every place where there's a common compatability library basically a place where a new CL standard could help? So e.g. filesystem, MOP, unicode, etc. 2015-07-01T22:32:39Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T22:33:19Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-01T22:34:04Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:35:18Z haasn` is now known as haasn 2015-07-01T22:37:12Z tjscanlon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T22:39:03Z brpocock: perhaps. 2015-07-01T22:39:38Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:39:41Z brpocock: I'd prefer on the filesystem front that the OS catch up to the spec (versioning and remote hosts, particularly) 2015-07-01T22:43:20Z nyef: brpocock: Well, remote hosts is available on WinAPI, IIRC, and versioning on VMS... 2015-07-01T22:43:58Z brpocock: yeah, and gvfs on Linux does a nice job, if someone were to monkey-patch it into the compiler, and all. 2015-07-01T22:45:09Z resttime: can one import a function from another package, but have it renamed? 2015-07-01T22:45:13Z jakeway joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:46:09Z brpocock: Even if ANSI never got fired up about it, I'd guess that “we, the users” could probably establish some meta-standard around the top 5 most-downloaded packages on Quicklisp and the top 10 others whose names begin “trivial-*” and call it the "CL-2015 standard library expansion pack” or some more clever acronym and be rather happy about it. 2015-07-01T22:46:57Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-01T22:47:10Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:47:32Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T22:47:41Z resttime: i guess another question is if a function can have a nickname like a package 2015-07-01T22:47:52Z brpocock: “I have a new Lisp compiler” → “does it comply with ANSI and SLEP-2015?” 2015-07-01T22:48:07Z brpocock: resttime: you can bind the same symbol to another function, yes — 2015-07-01T22:48:40Z quasisane quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-01T22:48:43Z jakeway quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-01T22:49:16Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T22:49:23Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:49:43Z aeth: brpocock: you don't need an ANSI standard, you probably just need a Github-hosted document that the major FOSS implementations agree to 2015-07-01T22:49:45Z brpocock: (setf (symbol-function my-foo) (symbol-function other::foo)) 2015-07-01T22:50:08Z aeth: brpocock: then anyone who wants to make a new CL can basically just go off of that 2015-07-01T22:50:10Z brpocock: The commercial vendors would probably be happy to sign on such a thing, as well. 2015-07-01T22:50:25Z aeth: probably. Especially if Quicklisp libraries are written to it 2015-07-01T22:50:29Z brpocock: I get the gist that Lw, Franz, and Clozure are all pretty amenable. 2015-07-01T22:50:37Z brpocock: (amenable to portability) 2015-07-01T22:51:11Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T22:51:24Z brpocock: resttime: my bad, quote those symbols for what you probably want 2015-07-01T22:51:27Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:51:43Z brpocock: (setf (symbol-function 'my-foo) (symbol-function 'other::foo)) 2015-07-01T22:51:50Z resttime: brpocock, np thanks for the info 2015-07-01T22:53:19Z brpocock: you may need/want that inside (eval-when …) as well, if you're doing some namespace laundering 2015-07-01T22:53:53Z aeth: brpocock: Actually, didn't someone try that already? A reimagined CL standard-like thing or something. I think I remember reading about it a while ago, perhaps on HN. Maybe it was too ambitious in its changes. 2015-07-01T22:53:55Z vin` joined #lisp 2015-07-01T22:54:25Z resttime: aeth, http://cl21.org/ ? 2015-07-01T22:54:47Z aeth: yes, I think. Unless there's more than one 2015-07-01T22:54:51Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-01T22:55:22Z brpocock: aeth: it's actually a pretty good idea, maybe some of the celebs like Xach and Faré could pitch it 'round. 2015-07-01T22:55:46Z brpocock: Isn't "CL21" meant as "just" an aesthetic lib? Perhaps I misunderstood 2015-07-01T22:56:24Z aeth: maybe that's the wrong one 2015-07-01T22:58:05Z aeth: brpocock: cl21 does have a few things that we were talking about. "Include MOP." "Syntax for regular expression." 2015-07-01T22:59:18Z brpocock: I think it's a syntactic lib, but its prerequisites (‘Quicklisp’ can be thought of as a rather severely large prerequisite set!) kinda make up the ‘expanded common library’ set that I was thinking-uf. 2015-07-01T22:59:49Z Baggers: brpocock: cl21 also says it want's to make things 'More object oriented' which is not something I would want to hear in any updated standard 2015-07-01T23:00:18Z aeth: https://github.com/cl21/cl21/blob/master/cl21.asd 2015-07-01T23:00:33Z aeth: brpocock: yeah definitely, it's just more syntax on top of a lot of the libraries you were thinking of 2015-07-01T23:01:13Z aeth: assuming you're working off of this: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/06/may-2015-download-stats.html 2015-07-01T23:01:27Z brpocock: I had a vague notion more like, perhaps (:use :cl :slep2015) ⇒ get all of ANSI and (alexandria trivial-features cl-ppcre babel closer-mop cl-fad bordeaux-threads flexi-streams trivial-gray-streams local-time) or so 2015-07-01T23:01:44Z brpocock: yeah, I actually had 2/2015 open in a tab, by coïncidence. 2015-07-01T23:01:46Z aeth: right 2015-07-01T23:02:20Z brpocock: plus asdf, uiop 2015-07-01T23:02:38Z aeth: There's a few other things that would be interesting to try to push. More functional programming stuff (*very* in-style right now) would be one. 2015-07-01T23:02:41Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-01T23:02:42Z brpocock: I'd add split-sequence, maybe iterate (I don't use it, but …) 2015-07-01T23:03:06Z brpocock: and usocket 2015-07-01T23:03:37Z brpocock: and something like trivial-backtrace to actually get stack frame info cross-platform would be a treat. 2015-07-01T23:04:07Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-07-01T23:04:30Z aeth: Another thing I'd like to see is something to compete with XML and JSON, but using s-expressions. Maybe I'm alone here. 2015-07-01T23:04:36Z brpocock nominates aeth to write up a standards document in LaTeX and shopping compiler vendors? 2015-07-01T23:04:45Z brpocock: Um. Like CL:READ ? 2015-07-01T23:04:54Z aeth: But what would be cool is basically a safe READ that will only read lists (including alists/plists), vectors, etc. 2015-07-01T23:04:57Z resttime: aeth, https://github.com/conspack/cl-conspack ? 2015-07-01T23:05:15Z brpocock: (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (read)) ? 2015-07-01T23:05:24Z aeth: resttime: possibly 2015-07-01T23:05:47Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-01T23:05:49Z aeth: resttime: I will have to read how it works 2015-07-01T23:05:57Z brpocock: oh crap, g2g 2015-07-01T23:06:06Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T23:06:57Z aeth: brpocock: Well, what I mean is a subset of read so that it's *just* the data structures. 2015-07-01T23:07:12Z aeth: I mean, obviously people can and probably have wrote such libraries, but it won't be as fast as if it is built in. 2015-07-01T23:11:29Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-01T23:16:20Z Fare: aeth: what do you expect to do with a standard, and where is the force that will make people comply to it? 2015-07-01T23:18:58Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-01T23:23:36Z Fare: brpocock: and BTW, cl-fad is superseded by uiop, that is more portable. 2015-07-01T23:24:02Z Fare: and has a slightly better API, IMNSHO. 2015-07-01T23:25:28Z Fare: finally, it's trivial for you to write a system that does (uiop:define-package :slep2015 :use-reexport (alexandria trivial-features cl-ppcre babel closer-mop cl-fad bordeaux-threads flexi-streams trivial-gray-streams local-time)) 2015-07-01T23:25:57Z Fare: well, assuming no symbol conflict. Then you'd have to :mix-reexport and/or :shadowing-import-from. 2015-07-01T23:26:55Z Fare: but the real point is, your standard has no tooth by itself unless there is a will for implementers to comply. 2015-07-01T23:27:12Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-07-01T23:27:15Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T23:27:27Z Fare: if what you want is readily implementable as a library, then the standard is useless 2015-07-01T23:27:30Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-01T23:27:43Z pillton: Good morning! 2015-07-01T23:28:16Z Fare: if what you want isn't, then it has a cost to the implementers, and won't be implemented by any implementation unless you do it yourself, and even then, get maintainers to approve that. 2015-07-01T23:29:11Z nyef: And for it to be adopted by a majority of implementations, the cost of implementation must outweigh the cost of non-implementation, which means that you need users for your new standard. 2015-07-01T23:29:35Z Fare: and for there to be users, you need an implementation... catch-22 2015-07-01T23:29:55Z Fare: unless your feature is so cool that it causes people to jump implementation ship. 2015-07-01T23:30:09Z whiteline: whiteline 2015-07-01T23:30:25Z Fare: at which point you implement it once, and others grudgingly comply or die. 2015-07-01T23:31:19Z Fare: nyef: did you ever document the work required to fix sbcl signal handling so it's user-modifiable, already? 2015-07-01T23:32:43Z vydd quit 2015-07-01T23:37:58Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-01T23:39:33Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-01T23:40:04Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-01T23:41:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-01T23:43:10Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-01T23:45:27Z aeth: Fare: You're right. So the best strategy would be to fork sbcl or something similar 2015-07-01T23:46:31Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-01T23:47:38Z Fare: aeth: best strategy for WHAT? 2015-07-01T23:47:42Z Fare: what's the end point? 2015-07-01T23:47:48Z Fare: or the direction? 2015-07-01T23:48:03Z Fare: the constraints? 2015-07-01T23:48:08Z Fare: the vision? 2015-07-01T23:48:10Z Fare: the goal? 2015-07-01T23:50:09Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-01T23:53:02Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-01T23:54:15Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-01T23:55:03Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-01T23:57:16Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-01T23:59:46Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:00:39Z Fare: if what you want is a better lisp, then (1) writing down the vision, (2) relentlessly working towards it, (3) adopting the best ideas and practices of existing experts on the domains on which you're not pushing the envelope — is a better strategy than gathering a committee for yet another standard. 2015-07-02T00:02:05Z Fare: what do you want to add to sbcl that requires a fork? 2015-07-02T00:04:58Z deadmund joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:06:09Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-02T00:06:24Z deadmund: I am looking at this simple guess the number example: http://landoflisp.com/guess.lisp but when I run it on the command line (clisp example.cl) nothing happens? I tried calling these functions ( e.g. at the end putting (start-over) ) but it doesn't work? Am I doing something wrong?? 2015-07-02T00:06:42Z nyef: Fare: Interrupt-handling? No, I don't believe I ever did. 2015-07-02T00:06:42Z deadmund: Please be gentle, I'm a newbie!! 2015-07-02T00:06:52Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T00:07:54Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:07:54Z nyef: deadmund: Have you tried following the instructions that go with that example? 2015-07-02T00:07:59Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-02T00:08:20Z deadmund: nyef: I don't see any instructions. What are you taking about? http://landoflisp.com/source.html 2015-07-02T00:09:18Z nyef: deadmund: The instructions that are, presumably, in the book. 2015-07-02T00:09:59Z deadmund: I don't have the book. Just searching for some simple list program online. Do you know why I'm not seeing anything when I run this code? Is it incomplete? 2015-07-02T00:10:08Z deadmund: seems it's complete to me but I know very little lisp! 2015-07-02T00:10:25Z deadmund: There is guess-my-number which takes the average of big and small 2015-07-02T00:10:44Z deadmund: and there is smaller and bigger which seem to be something to do with if the user guessed too high or too low.... 2015-07-02T00:11:01Z Baggers left #lisp 2015-07-02T00:12:02Z hitecnologys: The CLHS states UNWIND-PROTECT always executes cleanup forms no matter what happens. Is it true in real world at least for major implementations or there are nuances, as usual? 2015-07-02T00:12:03Z nyef: ... and the explanation would be in the book, which I don't have and have never read. 2015-07-02T00:12:31Z nyef: hitecnologys: The nuances involve thread cancellation, bugs, and errors that occur during the cleanup forms. 2015-07-02T00:13:06Z hitecnologys: nyef: so, I don't accidentally kill thread from outside, implementation devs don't screw up and I don't mess the cleanup forms, I'm good? 2015-07-02T00:13:35Z hitecnologys: s/I don't accidentally/if I don't accidentally/ 2015-07-02T00:13:59Z aeth: Fare: You said a new standard would require its own implementation, right? 2015-07-02T00:14:27Z hitecnologys: nyef: well, that sounds comforting, thanks. 2015-07-02T00:14:29Z nyef: hitecnologys: Oh, and asynchronous interrupt delivery. That can also cause issues. 2015-07-02T00:15:08Z hitecnologys: nyef: can that be avoided by using SB-EXT:WITHOUT-INTERRUPS or similar functionality of other implementations? 2015-07-02T00:15:17Z hitecnologys: INTERRUPTS* 2015-07-02T00:15:31Z Fare: aeth: doesn't have to be a fork, unless the standard is substantially incompatible, at which point you're not going to get much traction in the community, and might as well start from code that's closer to what you want. 2015-07-02T00:16:44Z deadmund: nyef: It's incomplete. Thanks for nothing!! :) 2015-07-02T00:16:47Z deadmund quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T00:17:12Z Fare: aeth: once again, what are you trying to do? first find out, then the means will follow. 2015-07-02T00:17:31Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T00:17:34Z jason_m: deadmund: the game works 2015-07-02T00:17:47Z Fare: if you want minor modifications to CL, pick one implementation, modify it, and see if it works foryou 2015-07-02T00:18:01Z jason_m: deadmund: after you load the code into clisp, pick a nimber in your head, and evaluate (guess-my-number) 2015-07-02T00:18:29Z jason_m: deadmund: and then evaluate (smaller) or (bigger) to direct the program to the correct answer 2015-07-02T00:18:44Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:18:46Z Fare: if you want radical improvements, such as continuations, or linear types, or a hygienic module system, etc. — then CL might not be the best starting point. 2015-07-02T00:19:36Z nyef: jason_m: s/he is gone. 2015-07-02T00:19:38Z axion: jason_m: he won't see anything after he leaves unless he views a channel log 2015-07-02T00:20:32Z jason_m: nyef, ah thanks 2015-07-02T00:20:40Z Fare: if "all you want" is better packaging of "batteries included", then hacking quicklisp might be a better starting point. 2015-07-02T00:20:46Z jason_m: they were missing a -repl on the clisp command line 2015-07-02T00:22:44Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:23:40Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T00:26:21Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:27:50Z Zhivago: hitech: It probably doesn't do so if the machine explodes in a huge ball of fire, first. 2015-07-02T00:28:16Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: well, I'm mostly concerned about factors I can control. 2015-07-02T00:28:33Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:28:34Z Zhivago: Well, if you can control them ... then you can ... control them. :) 2015-07-02T00:28:36Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T00:29:25Z hitecnologys: It's not like I can just tell cosmic rays to stop shining or prevent users from unplugging their machines from power grid. 2015-07-02T00:29:55Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:30:55Z nyef: You want factors outside your control? At one point SBCL had a bug on non-x86 platforms where a GC occurring while handling an asynchronous signal had a good chance at corrupting the signal context. 2015-07-02T00:31:51Z Zhivago: hitech: Probably the real question should be 'how reliable do I need a given process to be?' 2015-07-02T00:32:35Z Zhivago: If it needs to be very reliable, then an external and/or remote watchdog is probably what you want. 2015-07-02T00:32:45Z hitecnologys: Well, mostly I just want to make sure it's as reliable as I can make it without going too insane. 2015-07-02T00:33:18Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T00:33:19Z hitecnologys: I can afford it to miss once in a while, but if it's going to do it regularly, then I'm in trouble. 2015-07-02T00:33:21Z Zhivago: Well, it's certainly intended to be reliablish. 2015-07-02T00:33:40Z Zhivago: I'd expect it to be approximately as reliable as any of the other non-local transfer mechanisms. 2015-07-02T00:35:11Z Fare wonders if monolithic-concatenate-source-op can be a valid delivery mechanism for bootstrapping a "rich" variant of quicklisp. 2015-07-02T00:35:26Z Fare: one that would include, e.g. https support. 2015-07-02T00:35:53Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: actually, since it only cleans up thread context and resets it's state, I doesn't actually matter that much whether is got reset or not. I can verify whether thread is running or stopped anyway in any point in time, it would just add extra overhead to do so periodically rather than when thread quits. I've already got scheduler that monitors worker threads state so in case it fails to stop correctly, it 2015-07-02T00:35:55Z hitecnologys: won't last more than ~10ms. 2015-07-02T00:36:03Z Fare: of course, ironclad uses wrappers around compile and load, and isn't amenable to that without modification. 2015-07-02T00:36:31Z Zhivago: hitech: Well, then it sounds like you'll be fine. 2015-07-02T00:36:45Z Fare: another option would be the lisp equivalent of a .shar 2015-07-02T00:36:53Z hitecnologys: Zhivago, nyef: OK, thanks for help. Back to coding now. 2015-07-02T00:37:19Z Zhivago: hitech: Instead of doing a periodic clean, I'd suggest that you clean one when starting a new thread. 2015-07-02T00:37:49Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: it does that too. 2015-07-02T00:38:00Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: that's what I actually meant by periodic clean. 2015-07-02T00:38:17Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:38:43Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: threads get restarted anyway, so there's no need to duplicate things. 2015-07-02T00:40:18Z Fare: btw, does anyone use POIU? The main issue I see with it is that it forks therefore doesn't like threads therefore won't run under SLIME. 2015-07-02T00:40:30Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:40:47Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:41:30Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T00:41:47Z Fare: but if it could be made to run in a subprocess, then it could fork at will. 2015-07-02T00:41:56Z nowhere_man_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T00:42:12Z Fare: though at that point we might as well have an asdf4 thingie. 2015-07-02T00:42:19Z Fare: or xcvb. 2015-07-02T00:51:15Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-02T00:51:25Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T00:52:32Z Guest84827 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T00:53:27Z guaqua quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T00:53:32Z Guest16735 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T00:56:41Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, etc.) 2015-07-02T00:58:22Z Guest16735 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T01:12:04Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-02T01:14:48Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T01:18:38Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-07-02T01:23:06Z phf: i want to take a vector and pretend it's a stream of unsinged-byte 8 in a portal way. what's the package i should use? ccl comes with with-input-from-vector, but otherwise it seems every package that needs that functionality has its own (e.g. ironclad's make-octet-input-stream) 2015-07-02T01:23:41Z phf: (i'm also ok if it's fast and non-portabl sbcl only version) 2015-07-02T01:24:15Z nyef: phf: ISTR there's something like that in flexi-streams as well. 2015-07-02T01:24:52Z nyef: Otherwise, it's a fairly straightforward application of the Gray streams protocol to implement your own. 2015-07-02T01:25:45Z phf: it might be a good exercise to learn gray streams protocol (*sometime later* look another vector octet stream implementation!) 2015-07-02T01:26:45Z Xach: flexi-streams does it 2015-07-02T01:27:10Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, etc.) 2015-07-02T01:28:59Z phf: i also found fast-io and trivial-octet-streams 2015-07-02T01:29:38Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-02T01:30:30Z eli: pjb`: Oculus haven't existed enough time to be using anything "for years". 2015-07-02T01:31:06Z eli: You're probably senile-ly confusing them with Naughty Dog, who used a *Lisp* for years, and they still are using a Lisp, only a different one. (They never used the common one, AFAICR.) 2015-07-02T01:31:41Z kristof: If you've ever read GOOL, or whatever it is called, it looks more like Fortran than it does lisp 2015-07-02T01:32:16Z renopt joined #lisp 2015-07-02T01:32:53Z eli: Yeah, that, but they had a bunch of variants of it too, to varying degrees of lispiness (but probably none were too close to idiomatic code) 2015-07-02T01:33:19Z kristof: I didn't know that. I just know that all the examples I've seen have been objectively gross. 2015-07-02T01:34:04Z eli: IIRC, what they do now is pretty different -- more like descriptions that get compiled to code, so probably much less imperative-looking. 2015-07-02T01:34:10Z kristof: As if Backus himself had designed the language 2015-07-02T01:34:11Z OxMLR joined #lisp 2015-07-02T01:34:39Z Xach: Objectively. 2015-07-02T01:34:58Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T01:37:57Z kristof: It was tongue in cheek :P 2015-07-02T01:40:25Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-02T01:41:05Z zophy quit (Quit: eat yer wheaties) 2015-07-02T01:41:20Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T01:43:29Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-02T01:46:52Z quasisane joined #lisp 2015-07-02T01:47:39Z vin` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T01:48:20Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T01:52:53Z jlongste` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T01:52:56Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T01:54:08Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-02T01:54:19Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T01:54:46Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-02T01:56:54Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-02T01:59:04Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T01:59:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T02:01:17Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T02:05:13Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T02:07:14Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T02:13:19Z akkad: how would you track the updates to multiple files in lisp, e.g. tail -f /var/log/hosts/login.cron|grep "login accepted"|curl some url. 2015-07-02T02:14:21Z hitecnologys: So, I finished initial sketch of that hive-task thing I started writing some time ago. I decided to let go that preemptive multitasking idea because it's hard to maintain and implement and it adds lots of overhead as well. It seems to work fine now, though it's still alpha quality and there are many more things I would like to do before actually using in elsewhere. Anyway, I put what I have on the GH so 2015-07-02T02:14:23Z hitecnologys: constructive critics is welcome: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/hive-task. 2015-07-02T02:14:35Z hitecnologys: Ah, I hate it when I miss characters limit. 2015-07-02T02:14:50Z pillton: akkad: I periodically open the files and start reading from where I stopped last time. 2015-07-02T02:14:57Z Xach: Anyone happen to have some CL code to compute the duration in seconds of an MP3 file? 2015-07-02T02:15:37Z hitecnologys: Xach: I presume you're not OK with using external utilities? 2015-07-02T02:15:57Z hitecnologys: Xach: I may have a code that relies on ffmpeg. 2015-07-02T02:16:00Z Xach: hitecnologys: I am somewhat ok. I have not found such a utility yet. 2015-07-02T02:16:10Z hitecnologys: Xach: let me take a look then. 2015-07-02T02:16:14Z pillton: Xach: Doesn't PCL have a section on extracting that information? 2015-07-02T02:16:43Z Xach: pillton: i believe it's for extracting id3 info 2015-07-02T02:16:53Z quasisane quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-02T02:17:03Z Xach: pillton: i'm looking for audio info 2015-07-02T02:17:35Z Xach: I am able to inspect each frame and get lots of data, but I am either not getting the proper data or analyzing it wrong 2015-07-02T02:17:36Z pillton: Xach: Sorry. I thought that the information you wanted would be in there. 2015-07-02T02:17:46Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-07-02T02:18:01Z Xach: pillton: it might be, but i'm actually working with mp3 files that have no id3 info 2015-07-02T02:19:09Z hitecnologys: Xach: nope, seems like it's gone. I used to write something like that a year or so ago for splitting tracks according to CUE sheet. 2015-07-02T02:20:04Z hitecnologys: I probably threw it out after solving the problem I needed custom solution for. 2015-07-02T02:20:56Z Xach: I think I may have some code from the mp3info utility I can adapt. 2015-07-02T02:25:34Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-02T02:25:40Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-02T02:28:03Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T02:30:01Z quasisane joined #lisp 2015-07-02T02:30:24Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T02:32:06Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-02T02:34:21Z redline6561: Xach: ... I bet there's something like that inside ahefner's shuffletron/mixalot. Granted it has some C lib dependencies 2015-07-02T02:34:21Z minion: redline6561, memo from PuercoPop: I've pushed some work to the cli-commands branch of coleslaw. It uses buildapp to generate a binary with 4 commands build/clean/rebuild/serve. It has some rough edges, with error reporting and getting the Makefile to be ccl friendly (I have to take a look at pgloader's Makefile in more detail). I'll comment on the PR with more detail. Give it a try if you can over the weekend and let me 2015-07-02T02:34:55Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T02:38:20Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T02:39:16Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T02:43:13Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-02T02:44:36Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-02T02:53:24Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-02T02:53:51Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-02T02:54:52Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T02:55:08Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:00:40Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T03:00:58Z echo-are` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:00:59Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:02:11Z echo-are` is now known as echo-area 2015-07-02T03:04:27Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T03:07:15Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:07:37Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:08:13Z emaczen`: Will SBCL or CCL with SLIME give you the the line of the file that is causing the error when you get a backtrace? 2015-07-02T03:08:37Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:12:38Z j0nii joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:14:40Z nyef: emaczen`: Only if the relevant form is actually IN the backtrace. If the cause is elsewhere (typically between the keyboard and the chair) then it can't really direct the editor to the right place. 2015-07-02T03:15:33Z emaczen`: nyef: I don't follow? Why do other languages/environments do this then? 2015-07-02T03:16:11Z j0nii quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-02T03:16:28Z j0nii joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:16:49Z nyef: If the cause of the error is that someone fat-fingered a configuration file, thus screwing up something that won't happen until five minutes later, how would the editor be able to get to the configuration file from the backtrace? 2015-07-02T03:17:14Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:17:57Z Bike: well, the function actually signalling might be something you don't care about. (mapcar 4 5) => mapcar signals an error, not whatever's calling mapcar 2015-07-02T03:18:01Z j0nii quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-02T03:18:13Z nyef: Now, if you're asking about the most proximate form to DETECTING the error, that's another matter, and then yes, it should work Just Fine. 2015-07-02T03:18:43Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T03:19:48Z emaczen`: I'm not really sure what it is, but it just feels like the backtraces I get aren't as helpful as I have used elsewhere 2015-07-02T03:21:00Z nyef: That may be the case. And you may find that adjusting your DEBUG optimize quality helps. 2015-07-02T03:21:47Z emaczen`: nyef: Here is an example that I finally just solved 2015-07-02T03:21:59Z emaczen`: I have a macro called define-class 2015-07-02T03:22:11Z emaczen`: I accidentally typed defipne-class 2015-07-02T03:22:37Z emaczen`: I'm using ps:defmacro+ps so emacs doesn't syntax highlight it the define so I don't see it for awhile 2015-07-02T03:22:40Z OxMLR: Are there any games that are built with lisp that are in active development? 2015-07-02T03:23:03Z emaczen`: The only backtrack error message I would get was "serious errors" 2015-07-02T03:23:42Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:23:48Z emaczen`: I want to say in other environments, it would show me that mispelling of define-class by telling me that definpe-class is undefined and taking me to that line of code 2015-07-02T03:24:03Z nyef: That sounds like poor error scenario design with "ps", whatever that is. 2015-07-02T03:24:16Z emaczen`: It's parenscript 2015-07-02T03:24:24Z emaczen`: nyef: Could be... 2015-07-02T03:24:35Z emaczen`: I was also wondering if I just didn't know how to use SLIME that well 2015-07-02T03:25:38Z williamyao left #lisp 2015-07-02T03:31:20Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:32:26Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T03:35:39Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T03:36:27Z stevegt_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:38:33Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:38:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-02T03:38:50Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-02T03:40:27Z OxMLR: Hello 2015-07-02T03:41:46Z Fare: good morning! 2015-07-02T03:42:33Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-07-02T03:44:34Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T03:46:21Z beach: Any McCLIM users around? I have started making changes to ultimately eliminate MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN as a superclass of BASIC-PANE and I made a few minor changes yesterday. I just want to make sure I didn't break anything. I ran some tests myself of course, but McCLIM does not have a complete test suite, so I wanted to make sure. 2015-07-02T03:47:11Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T03:48:08Z faheem_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-02T03:55:26Z OxMLR quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T03:57:28Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-02T03:58:08Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-07-02T04:01:05Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T04:01:11Z pjb: There's a new C pre processor implemented in Common Lisp at com.informatimago.common-lisp.languages.cpp ; here's an example: http://sprunge.us/GDBN 2015-07-02T04:01:56Z pjb: (It's output is actually a list of list of tokens (one sublist per line)). 2015-07-02T04:03:47Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-02T04:04:50Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T04:04:51Z Bike: impressive. is it that :includes is where "" files are looked for, and :include-bracket-directories for <>? 2015-07-02T04:06:33Z pjb: aeth: the only places where you'd need a new standard, is where implementing it as a library would be very very inconvenient or impossible. For example, adding call-with-current-continuation to Common Lisp as a library is very very inconvenient: either you re-implement a whole scheme in CL, or you do it partially. Basically, it's almost impossible to integrate it correctly with existing CL control structures (block, throw, condition 2015-07-02T04:06:33Z pjb: handlers, restarts). Then if you really want call-with-current-continuation in CL, you will have to design a new standard. 2015-07-02T04:06:55Z pjb: aeth: but unless you have to go full metalinguistical to implement it, you don't need a new standard. 2015-07-02T04:09:01Z pjb: aeth: another example, is that extending the lisp reader to do some simple things such as reading sources to produce documentation, becomes soon very impractical (you have basically to go full metalinguisticall, starting with re-implement a lisp reader (done), but also a lisp implementation to be able to evaluate the reader macros and the *features* for the implementations. Adding a small feature to readtables could help a lot here. 2015-07-02T04:09:21Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-02T04:09:26Z pjb: But this doesn't need a whole new standard, just an extension of Common Lisp (which are ALLOWED by the CL standard), so just a CDR and patches to implementations. 2015-07-02T04:09:37Z pjb: aeth: just go write CDRs! 2015-07-02T04:09:49Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T04:11:25Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T04:11:28Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T04:12:43Z badkins quit 2015-07-02T04:16:09Z beach: I find the CDR process very sane. It's a shame so many people disparage it. 2015-07-02T04:17:03Z loke: beach: That would be because none of the CL vendors care about it. 2015-07-02T04:18:11Z DNoved1 quit (Quit: ()) 2015-07-02T04:19:00Z beach: And you think that can be fixed by declaring it useless? I think it can be fixed by more people using it. 2015-07-02T04:19:21Z beach: But, yes, I know, that's not the tradition here. 2015-07-02T04:19:31Z beach: Much easier to disparage. 2015-07-02T04:19:37Z loke: beach: I never declared anything. I have been known to state the it's _effectively_ pointless today. 2015-07-02T04:19:57Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T04:19:58Z beach: I wasn't referring to you personally. 2015-07-02T04:20:44Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T04:22:00Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-02T04:23:52Z pjb: Bike: yes. Actually the options are :include-quote-directories and :include-bracket-directories (and there's also an option to specify search functions), but for the cpp-e (test) driver command, I added a &key include parameter for ease of use. 2015-07-02T04:24:33Z pjb: loke: This is not correct, some CDRs are implemented in some implementations! 2015-07-02T04:24:58Z loke: pjb: Didn't we discuss this yesterday? And the conclusion was that the number was 2 (or was it 1) 2015-07-02T04:26:17Z pjb: ok, so far there's only Armed Bear Common Lisp --> (:CDR6). 2015-07-02T04:26:29Z pjb: Existance proof is all is needed :-) 2015-07-02T04:26:45Z kristof: Is there a uniform way to declare you implement a cdr? 2015-07-02T04:26:46Z pjb: Notice that there's at least one CDR that is implemented as a library. 2015-07-02T04:26:48Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-02T04:26:54Z kristof: Perhaps just an exposed feature with the number? 2015-07-02T04:26:57Z pjb: kristof: yes, there's a CDR about it :-) 2015-07-02T04:27:03Z kristof: oh glorious 2015-07-02T04:27:11Z loke: pjb: You referring the hash table one? The one that was a library even before it become a cdr? 2015-07-02T04:27:51Z beach: loke: The fact is that people here are human, and they react to statements in various ways. When someone prominent like you declares a thing "pointless", some people react to that by losing interest in it. 2015-07-02T04:27:53Z beach: loke: So you are in fact doing something more than declaring it effectively pointless; you are implicitly encouraging less prominent people to drop it. 2015-07-02T04:28:11Z beach: loke: Now, that might of course be what you want. 2015-07-02T04:28:18Z loke: beach: Point taken. I guess I am. 2015-07-02T04:28:45Z loke: beach: It's caused by my personal disappointment that the process wasn't successful. It should have been. 2015-07-02T04:30:05Z beach: loke: You need to become less Swedish and more American. "We can do it!". :) 2015-07-02T04:30:16Z kristof: beach: Aren't you French? :P 2015-07-02T04:30:41Z beach: kristof: If only you knew. 2015-07-02T04:31:05Z kristof: I don't! This sounds like a good story. 2015-07-02T04:31:23Z beach: I won't bore #lisp participants with it. 2015-07-02T04:31:38Z kristof: Fair enough 2015-07-02T04:31:57Z loke: kristof: I guess it _can_ be done (anything is possible!) but how? Continuing down the cdr route seems hopeless to me. Still, there are a few pain-points in CL that can't be implemented using libraries (like the pjb-mentioned continuations), and a few others like extensible sequences 2015-07-02T04:32:18Z kristof: loke: you mean beach 2015-07-02T04:32:26Z pjb: loke: it's not hopeless, but it requires more coding, after writing the CDR: you have to provide the patches. 2015-07-02T04:32:39Z loke: Standardised code walkinger API and first-class environments are others. 2015-07-02T04:33:05Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-02T04:33:11Z pjb: another thing that could be good for a "superset of the CL language" standard, would be real numbers. 2015-07-02T04:33:14Z beach: loke: If I were to drop everything that people have told me is "pointless", I wouldn't have done very many of the things I have. 2015-07-02T04:33:29Z theos: good morning everyone 2015-07-02T04:33:35Z loke: pjb: real numbers? 2015-07-02T04:33:50Z pjb: also, dynamic precision long float like in clisp are an extension that could be specified for a "superset of the CL language" standard. 2015-07-02T04:33:56Z beach: Good morning theos. 2015-07-02T04:33:59Z adhoc: beach: its funny how thats a great motivator 2015-07-02T04:34:03Z pjb: loke: as in realib (continued fraction or whatever). 2015-07-02T04:34:24Z loke: pjb: I see. That could be useful, yes 2015-07-02T04:34:42Z beach: adhoc: What is? Having others declare it pointless? Yeah, once you learn to take it the right way. 2015-07-02T04:34:42Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-02T04:35:05Z adhoc: beach: yes, or declaring something as impossible, when its just really hard 2015-07-02T04:35:08Z loke: pjb: But wait a minute. I'm not a maths person but can't that be represented using rationals? 2015-07-02T04:35:26Z pjb: :-) 2015-07-02T04:35:37Z kristof: Who was it that said that Lisp comes with a free code walker in the form of MACROLET? 2015-07-02T04:35:43Z kristof: Doug Hoyte, or Paul Graham? 2015-07-02T04:35:45Z pjb: Nope, that's the most funny blunder non-mathematicians do. I mean, it's been know for more than 2500 years! 2015-07-02T04:35:47Z kristof: I think it was Hoyte. 2015-07-02T04:35:49Z beach: adhoc: I agree. But it has taken me decades to take such remarks as a challenge rather than being discouraged by them. 2015-07-02T04:36:33Z adhoc: beach: understood =) 2015-07-02T04:36:57Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T04:37:02Z adhoc: its all too easy to clutter your life with unachievable ideas 2015-07-02T04:37:15Z adhoc: until you get one actually done 2015-07-02T04:37:32Z loke: pjb: are there real numbers that are not rational but have repeating digits? I 2015-07-02T04:37:39Z pjb: obviously, you have to distinguish: proven to be impossible, from pointless because I, from my ivory twer, am not interested in it. 2015-07-02T04:37:58Z kristof: loke: Any repeating decimal can be represented as a rational number. 2015-07-02T04:38:05Z loke: kristof: exactly 2015-07-02T04:38:10Z pjb: loke: if there's no infinite repeatition, that doesn't count. 2015-07-02T04:38:11Z kristof: loke: Because any repeating decimal can be represented as an infinite geometric series. 2015-07-02T04:38:20Z kristof: What pjb said :P 2015-07-02T04:38:39Z loke: Right, so exactly what is it pjb wants then? Exact representation of irrational numbers? 2015-07-02T04:38:50Z kristof: Irrational, transcendental, yeah 2015-07-02T04:38:58Z kristof: Not exact, but arbitrarily precise 2015-07-02T04:39:00Z loke: Let's take it all the way to surreal numbers. 2015-07-02T04:39:19Z Zhivago: Don't forget infintessimals. 2015-07-02T04:39:23Z kristof: Well, think of a little function that everytime you ask it for another 3 orders of precision, it gives it to you. 2015-07-02T04:39:28Z loke: kristof: But you can be arbitrarily precise with rationals... 2015-07-02T04:39:38Z loke: kristof: OK, then I unmderstand 2015-07-02T04:39:48Z pjb: loke: yes. This would be a symbolic representation, basically, the same you'd write on paper in maths. We can still compute with them, and notably, compute approximations. 2015-07-02T04:39:51Z kristof: loke: Okay, sure. But that's an implementation detail. 2015-07-02T04:39:53Z loke: Zhivago: That's covered by the surreal numbers. 2015-07-02T04:40:08Z kristof: No, it's not :o 2015-07-02T04:40:09Z j4cknewt joined #lisp 2015-07-02T04:40:18Z kristof: infinitessimals are hyperreals 2015-07-02T04:40:33Z kristof: This is not Lisp! OT! 2015-07-02T04:40:42Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T04:40:51Z pjb: Not entirely. 2015-07-02T04:41:04Z loke: "In mathematics, the surreal number system is an arithmetic continuum containing the real numbers as well as infinite and infinitesimal numbers, respectively larger or smaller in absolute value than any positive real number." 2015-07-02T04:41:15Z pjb: The point here is that it's impossible to perform exact numerical computation with those numbers (as simple as (sqrt 2)!!!). 2015-07-02T04:41:17Z loke: seems to me it covers infitesimals too 2015-07-02T04:41:49Z pjb: But lisp is a symbolic programming language, and it would seem perfectly normal to have them as symbolic value that can be represented and computed with, exactly. 2015-07-02T04:41:57Z pjb: So (expt (sqrt 2) 2) --> 2 2015-07-02T04:41:59Z pjb: and not 2.0 2015-07-02T04:42:32Z loke: pjb: What languages does that? Mathematica? 2015-07-02T04:42:43Z Zhivago: Considering floats as intervals might help. 2015-07-02T04:42:47Z pjb: and (exp (* pi (sqrt -1))) -> -1 exactly. 2015-07-02T04:43:18Z pjb: loke: yes, a few mathematical systems can computer symbolically with reals. 2015-07-02T04:43:40Z pjb: Check this expression in CL, we get a complex number! 2015-07-02T04:43:42Z loke: pjb: Right, but outside of maths applications, there are no general languages that support it? 2015-07-02T04:44:03Z pjb: Hence Ariane-5 and a few other rocket explosions. 2015-07-02T04:44:04Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T04:45:14Z PuercoPop: Oi, I'm profiling the use of hashtables (instead of alists or plists) in stumpwm's *event-fn-table* which is populated only once and then it is accessed to dispatch x11 events. My hypothesis is that the use of hashtables is a premature optimization. Any obvious mistake in my benchmarking methodology? Any pro tips? Here is the code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150940 2015-07-02T04:45:55Z Zhivago: Symbolic mathematics is pretty complicated -- think about what happens when you write (* 2 (sqrt x)) and x turns out to be pi. 2015-07-02T04:46:41Z pjb: PuercoPop: basically, if you have more than half a dozen elements (in implementations like sbcl or ccl), then you can go hash-table. below, a-lists or p-lists are better. 2015-07-02T04:47:24Z Zhivago: The result of that expression is pretty much that expression in some form -- and then you need future expressions to be able to factor things out of it, since it's not itself reducable. 2015-07-02T04:47:58Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T04:48:32Z Zhivago: And since real people rarely care enough about doing that kind of stuff, it doesn't get done in real systems. 2015-07-02T04:48:56Z pjb: and then people complain about 2.00001 and 0.9999999 2015-07-02T04:49:53Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T04:49:54Z Zhivago: Unfortunately the cost of educating them around that issue is low enough that that's what gets done. :) 2015-07-02T04:50:31Z pjb: Zhivago: this is not the point. We have rational, we don't need education: their use is optional (and sometimes people use them without realizing). 2015-07-02T04:50:42Z pjb: having real reals would be similar. 2015-07-02T04:50:54Z stevegt_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T04:51:01Z Zhivago: Well, it's a kind of half-arsed stop-gap, I guess. 2015-07-02T04:52:28Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T04:52:44Z PuercoPop: pjb: then I must be bench-marking wrong. The table has 17 elements but my measurements favor plists. 2015-07-02T04:53:12Z pjb: PuercoPop: did you compile with optimize speed 3? 2015-07-02T04:53:40Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T04:54:08Z pjb: Also, you may want to make the hash-tables yourself, and compare with different test functions. 2015-07-02T04:54:30Z PuercoPop: no, but then again the code is not ran under speed 3 2015-07-02T04:54:32Z pjb: (the hash function will depend on the test function and may impact strongly the performance of the hash-table). 2015-07-02T04:54:49Z PuercoPop: the test-function is eq as the keys are keywords 2015-07-02T04:55:32Z djinni` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T04:56:41Z pjb: anyways, 17 is within the range. for clisp it was 35. 2015-07-02T04:58:30Z PuercoPop: I understood half a dozen as ~6. So in clisp it should favor plists even more? good to know. 2015-07-02T04:58:44Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T04:58:53Z pjb: Yes. 2015-07-02T04:59:34Z pjb: That said, I benchmarked a few years ago, probably on a 32-bit system. It might be good to try again on 64-bit that may change the results. 2015-07-02T04:59:37Z keen___________9 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:02:06Z keen___________8 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T05:03:00Z djinni` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:03:12Z stevegt_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:05:10Z jlongste` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T05:05:18Z jackc-_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T05:06:35Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:07:03Z RussT1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T05:07:21Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T05:08:29Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:08:37Z wobh: hello 2015-07-02T05:08:48Z beach: Hello wobh. 2015-07-02T05:08:52Z pjb: hi wobh! 2015-07-02T05:09:13Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-07-02T05:09:50Z otwieracz: hey 2015-07-02T05:09:56Z wobh: So I've been thinking about forking the CL cookbook and putting in on Github (or something). How terrible and idea is that? 2015-07-02T05:10:16Z pjb: wobh: forking is a normal operation for github repositories. 2015-07-02T05:10:18Z pjb: Go ahead. 2015-07-02T05:10:26Z wobh: s/and idea/an idea/ 2015-07-02T05:10:31Z jackdaniel: wobh: why not suggest authors to move there? 2015-07-02T05:10:40Z jackc- joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:10:41Z jackdaniel: or maybe you did it already and met wall of silence? 2015-07-02T05:10:55Z pjb: Well, once the authors receive a few pull requests, they may be motivated. 2015-07-02T05:11:19Z jackdaniel: yes, but cookbook isn't on github yet, I think it's wobh idea to put it there 2015-07-02T05:12:10Z wobh: Yeah, currently it's hosted on the increasingly spammy sourceforge. 2015-07-02T05:12:31Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:12:42Z wobh: I don't like thinking of it as a "rescue" but I feel like it kinda would be. 2015-07-02T05:12:52Z pjb: wobh: if it's already under a revision system you should try to convert it to git first, by using eg. reposurgeon. 2015-07-02T05:13:07Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T05:13:25Z wobh: Yeah, there's also the matter of converting CVS to Git. That's pretty important. 2015-07-02T05:13:33Z jackdaniel: wobh: i'd try suggestion to authors, and if that fails due to lack of interest, then it's fine 2015-07-02T05:13:51Z pjb: wobh: http://www.catb.org/~esr/reposurgeon/dvcs-migration-guide.html 2015-07-02T05:14:12Z wobh: jackdaniel: that's a good idea, and seems like the considerate thing to do. 2015-07-02T05:14:20Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-02T05:14:20Z PuercoPop: sourceforge is included on the uBlock adblocker 2015-07-02T05:14:31Z pjb: actually, we should prepare for a sourceforge implosion, and therefore move to git all the CL (sleeping) projects still on sourceforge. 2015-07-02T05:14:59Z PuercoPop: I was unaware how mucho slower clisp is compared to sbcl! 2015-07-02T05:15:05Z jackdaniel: how to move mailing list archives? 2015-07-02T05:15:16Z pjb: PuercoPop: depends what for. 2015-07-02T05:15:52Z pjb: PuercoPop: if you use a lot of CL operators, then it's as fast or faster ,since they're written mostly in C. If you write your own code, then it's interpreter or byte-code compiled and VM intepreted, therefore slower. 2015-07-02T05:16:43Z pjb: What's surprising however, is the slowness of gethash which is implemented in C. What that shows, is that implementing complex algorithms (as little complex as computing a good hash) in C is very hard and leads to slower code than in CL. 2015-07-02T05:18:10Z PuercoPop: pjb: the benchmark code on clisp is takes almost 5 minutes on Clisp, but it conses when in SBCL it didn't so I should take a look at what is actually being run in SBCL probably. 2015-07-02T05:18:56Z akkad: sorceforget 2015-07-02T05:19:22Z pjb: 901 lisp programs on sf: http://sourceforge.net/directory/?q=lisp 2015-07-02T05:22:43Z astronaut_wannab joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:23:14Z wobh: So the mailing list is also hosted by sourceforge. I wonder if I should try to contact John Thingstad directly. 2015-07-02T05:23:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:24:12Z wobh: The last message in the archive is from 2013, "hello" 2015-07-02T05:25:00Z wobh: The one before that is from 2012, a feature request auto-post. 2015-07-02T05:28:07Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T05:32:06Z Brozo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:32:42Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T05:32:55Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:33:43Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:33:50Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T05:35:09Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:35:57Z wobh: pjb: thanks for the link on conversion. 2015-07-02T05:38:22Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:38:30Z Fare: is it just me? trying to install the sbcl 1.2.12 msi (either x86 or x64) fails for me. 2015-07-02T05:41:39Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T05:42:36Z Fare: has anyone used sb-ext:run-program on Windows recently? 2015-07-02T05:42:54Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3-dev) 2015-07-02T05:42:55Z j4cknewt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T05:43:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:43:48Z schjetne: beach: I feel bad about the Gmail comments now 2015-07-02T05:44:51Z Fare: any windows user around? 2015-07-02T05:44:57Z wobh: Ok emailed the last known address of jthing 2015-07-02T05:45:36Z wobh: I have used SBCL on windows, but not recently. My windows computer is a bit of bust right now. Sorry. 2015-07-02T05:46:10Z wobh: (laptop, lamp dying. Just goes black.) 2015-07-02T05:46:12Z nell joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:47:21Z nell is now known as aluchan 2015-07-02T05:48:35Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T05:51:12Z wobh: Hmm http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/copying-cl-cookbook-to-wikibook-ideas-feedback/702419 2015-07-02T05:51:16Z astronaut_wannab quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T05:52:36Z wobh: that was in 2006, but it seems that jpt took over in 2008 http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/copying-cl-cookbook-to-wikibook-ideas-feedback/702419 2015-07-02T05:52:57Z wobh: err http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/cl-cookbook/704734 2015-07-02T05:53:40Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:55:55Z wobh: And this is the new link to the wikibook https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Common_Lisp 2015-07-02T05:56:38Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-02T05:57:27Z Colleen joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:01:24Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T06:06:20Z beach: schjetne: That was by design. 2015-07-02T06:06:37Z beach: schjetne: Don't take it personally. 2015-07-02T06:06:42Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-02T06:07:14Z faheem_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:08:02Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:08:06Z beach: schjetne: It's just a general ambiance here in #lisp. 2015-07-02T06:08:37Z Shinmera: Argh, looks like Colleen broke down over night and didn't do any logging. Sorry about that. I'll backport from the clozure logs. 2015-07-02T06:08:49Z ilya joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:11:54Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:13:03Z ilya: hi. using cl-yason, i would like to change how true and false are parsed (:true and :false instead of 'yason:true and 'yason:false). i could just run (parse) and then map the structure but it seems like waste. can i wrap the yason:parse-constant function in a way that would work? if i understand correctly, if i replace it after the module is loaded it won't help because other functions will already have reference to the old symbol. what do 2015-07-02T06:13:12Z beach: Shinmera: But I guess #clasp logs are lost. 2015-07-02T06:13:53Z Shinmera: Yeah :( 2015-07-02T06:14:20Z Shinmera: My hoster was having network problems about an hour before I left for bed, so that might have happened again while I was asleep. 2015-07-02T06:14:40Z schjetne: beach: throwing out the whole thing for inspiration was unwarranted, I was just complaining about posting styles. Apparently Gmail transforms everything to an IM-like thread, so user experience is great as long as both parties use Gmail. 2015-07-02T06:15:39Z schjetne: Incidentally I've been sketching on a file tagging system myself 2015-07-02T06:16:19Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:17:13Z schjetne: The idea is to define tags that depend on each other, so the system can suggest tags for new files, or highlight files that might have have a newly added tag apply to them 2015-07-02T06:17:27Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:17:53Z schjetne: And then project the whole thing onto a hierarchal file system using CL-Webdav or CL-FUSE so it can be transparently accessed by other programs 2015-07-02T06:18:33Z jackdaniel: beach: Shinmera: its only since yesterday, but dumped my #clasp buffer http://ix.io/jqi 2015-07-02T06:18:51Z schjetne: Maybe a stop-gap measure until we have something native 2015-07-02T06:18:53Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: What offset do those timestamps have? 2015-07-02T06:18:56Z jackdaniel: day-before-yeserday that is° 2015-07-02T06:19:00Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-02T06:19:17Z Shinmera: Apparently nothing new got posted over night anyway though 2015-07-02T06:19:24Z jackdaniel: 30VI (~5pm CET) -- now 2015-07-02T06:19:24Z beach: schjetne: Sounds good. 2015-07-02T06:20:05Z beach: schjetne: I am thinking an in-core system. But others have opinions about that. 2015-07-02T06:20:27Z beach: jackdaniel: Oh, thanks! 2015-07-02T06:20:28Z emma_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:20:41Z jackdaniel: beach: np 2015-07-02T06:21:20Z Shinmera: beach: According to what jackdaniel just posted the logs on Clasp are complete on log.irc.tymoon.eu 2015-07-02T06:21:39Z man213 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:21:44Z beach: Oh, OK. [confused] 2015-07-02T06:22:04Z jackdaniel: last message is from 21:51 (CET) 2015-07-02T06:22:08Z kamentomov joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:24:33Z kamentomov: Hi! What is wrong with this form: (#'+ 1 2)? 2015-07-02T06:24:45Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:25:08Z Shinmera: kamentomov: that's ((function +) 1 2) which is not a valid form. 2015-07-02T06:25:45Z Shinmera: You'll want (funcall #'+ 1 2) or just (+ 1 2) 2015-07-02T06:25:58Z dkcl` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T06:26:06Z kamentomov: Shinmera: thank you but why it isn't a valid form? 2015-07-02T06:26:13Z Shinmera: Because it's defined that way. 2015-07-02T06:26:35Z schjetne: beach: I haven't started implementing yet, but I think I'll keep the files in the normal file system, named by the hash of their contents, and the metadata using one of the persistence libraries 2015-07-02T06:27:10Z schjetne: And do the tagging GUI in CLIM or in the browser 2015-07-02T06:27:21Z kamentomov: \whois kamentomov 2015-07-02T06:27:25Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T06:27:34Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T06:28:08Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:28:37Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/form 2015-07-02T06:28:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#form 2015-07-02T06:29:02Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T06:31:35Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 187 seconds) 2015-07-02T06:31:45Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 187 seconds) 2015-07-02T06:31:54Z xach quit (Ping timeout: 187 seconds) 2015-07-02T06:32:20Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:32:20Z 2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: ccl-logbot nikki93 angavrilov kamentomov emma Harag mrSpec ilya tmtwd faheem_ Colleen Shinmera ehu aluchan wemeetagain xificurC fsvehla sunwukong Brozo_ jumblerg jackc- wobh stevegt_ djinni` keen___________9 Petit_Dejeuner_ harish happy-dude arpunk voidlily beach peppermachete emaczen` echo-area smokeink resttime innertracks mbuf quasisane frkout pranavrc Fare aap_ nalik891 renopt nowhereman_ gigetoo stardiviner zacharias_ kristof zeitue Mhoram Jubb 2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: quazimodo pjb pillton sdemarre tkd Natch CEnnis91 bege sheilong A205B064 jself bgs100 ASau isoraqathedh emanuelz cpopell3 brpocock Jaskologist milosn anunnaki psy_ srcerer defaultxr lancetw sulky mathrick synchromesh gendl__ clog snafuchs Neet splittist billstclair danlentz jasom torpig GGMethos zymurgy bjorkintosh eazar001 scharan backupthrick_ synergy_ codeitagile trn AntiSpamMeta kalzz lpaste bb010g sbryant ircbrows- marvi_ haasn john-mca` ThePhoeron 2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: trig-ger_ abbe yrk ec\_ lemoinem jsnell_ sivoais c74d3 Ober_ otwieracz zyoung_ hratsimi1ah larocca_ eak_ p_l frsilent sytse_ joga misv_ kaptin Tuxedo easye` cyraxjoe lacedaemon Blkt_ victor_lowther justinmcp joshmcmillan_ asedeno alms_clozure sepi` reb`` eschulte ahungry_ Posterdati flip214 yasha9 streptotrichosis heurist` yorick spintronic pavelpenev aretecode djh emlow mulk_ whiteline radioninja_work theos knobo salv0 Walex cyphase myrk2 impulse mtd 2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: moei yeticry kvsari adhoc ninja-maid-robot `micro dmiles_afk Oddity MoALTz__ constantinexvi ft devon Patzy foom NaNDude sz0 emaczen dougk_ emuxius arrubin marinintim Xach schoppenhauer HDurer dtw skrue xan_ jewel jrm balle fikusz larxy kanru nydel roscoe_tw dvgroc froggey whartung guiloooo honkfestival hlavaty cmatei manfoo7 araujo kjeldahl zacts salva les hitecnologys lala Zhivago PlasmaStar MrWoohoo Bike mlamari farhaven ferada setheus SAL9000 copec 2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: cods mingvs Tordek vert2 hyoyoung techiewickie ozzloy cpt_nemo Oladon capitaomorte j0ni Khisanth jdz Fleurety PuercoPop jtz wolgo vhost- lokulin dfox prince_jammys loz vap1 loke brucem pinterface1 joneshf-laptop replcated_ akkad vlnx seg smull gniourf segmond Kruppe ssake_ ssake phadthai ryankarason newcup pok sharkz_ sharkz p8m crichter eli warex zaquest tristero __main__ joast arrsim ski epitron christoph_debian mach Cthulhux bishopj` joshe jaffachief 2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: s1n4 someone TeMPOraL alex6407 troydm xristos taij33n |3b| izabera gko ktx PinealGlandOptic qlkzy nicdev K1rk funnel peterhil` wooden ahungry pchrist cross Zotan H4ns Tristam brandonz switchp0rt housel shifty779 dilated_dinosaur m_zr0 redline6561 sigjuice EnergyCoffee sfa thomas russell-- antoszka ``Erik drdo sshirokov endou___________ wizzo wolf_moz- alladia_ drmeister swflint_away daimrod johs eMBee tokik luis ecraven kini josteink ggherdov specbot 2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: clop yauz NhanH frankS2 dlowe gz stokachu birk d4gg4d Subfusc lieven rvirding XachX rotty1 cojy angus yeltzooo gabot viaken2 bcoburn axion tmh_ rj-code zmyrgel brent80_plow sjl zbigniew phf tokenrove decent stux|RC ck_ Takumo mood oGMo The_third_man gensym spacebat1 motumla mikaelj_ jeaye fionnan aeth nopf dim edran cantstanya zickzackv ivan4th ivan\ Intensity AeroNotix sellout l1x kbtr rvchangu- p_l|backup eagleflo dsp_ low-profile RazWelle1 diginet 2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: musegarden metaf5 peccu larme schjetne clarkema Guest15425 _death jackdaniel samebcha1e Mandus_ nisstyre alchemis7 nightfly erg minion cibs tomaw tessier SHODAN bytecrawler renard_ theBlackDragon failproofshark Fade z0d aerique vsync wyan ineiros cmbntr ramus oconnore j_king jayne klltkr_ finnrobi_ 2015-07-02T06:32:20Z kornbluth.freenode.net:#lisp- [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup 2015-07-02T06:32:37Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T06:32:48Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T06:33:06Z emaczen`: H4ns: Why not? 2015-07-02T06:33:12Z wobh: long answer: read _Let Over Lambda_ and replace with pandoric macro. 2015-07-02T06:33:55Z H4ns: emaczen`: because there is no portable way to do it. it is very likely that the names x and y are already los. 2015-07-02T06:34:14Z emaczen`: H4ns: Fair enough 2015-07-02T06:34:22Z H4ns: emaczen`: this is not to say that it is impossible to get at the values. it is just not something that you'll want to do in regular programs. 2015-07-02T06:34:46Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:35:48Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T06:36:06Z Zhivago: If you are using a closure as an object, then you perhaps should not be using a closure. 2015-07-02T06:52:28Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:52:28Z 2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: ccl-logbot Fare svetlyak40wt man213 ndrei stepnem nikki93 angavrilov kamentomov emma mrSpec ilya tmtwd faheem_ Colleen Shinmera ehu aluchan wemeetagain xificurC fsvehla sunwukong Brozo_ jumblerg jackc- wobh stevegt_ djinni` keen___________9 Petit_Dejeuner_ harish happy-dude arpunk voidlily beach peppermachete emaczen` echo-area smokeink resttime innertracks mbuf quasisane frkout pranavrc aap_ nalik891 renopt nowhereman_ gigetoo stardiviner zacharias_ 2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: zeitue Mhoram Jubb quazimodo pjb pillton sdemarre tkd Natch CEnnis91 bege sheilong A205B064 jself bgs100 ASau isoraqathedh emanuelz cpopell3 brpocock Jaskologist milosn anunnaki psy_ srcerer defaultxr lancetw sulky mathrick synchromesh gendl__ clog snafuchs Neet splittist billstclair danlentz jasom torpig GGMethos zymurgy bjorkintosh eazar001 scharan backupthrick_ synergy_ codeitagile trn AntiSpamMeta kalzz lpaste bb010g sbryant ircbrows- marvi_ haasn 2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: john-mca` ThePhoeron trig-ger_ abbe yrk ec\_ lemoinem jsnell_ sivoais c74d3 Ober_ otwieracz zyoung_ hratsimi1ah larocca_ eak_ p_l frsilent sytse_ joga misv_ kaptin Tuxedo easye` cyraxjoe lacedaemon Blkt_ victor_lowther justinmcp joshmcmillan_ asedeno alms_clozure sepi` reb`` eschulte ahungry_ Posterdati flip214 yasha9 streptotrichosis heurist` yorick spintronic pavelpenev aretecode djh emlow mulk_ whiteline radioninja_work theos knobo salv0 Walex cyphase 2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: myrk2 impulse mtd moei yeticry kvsari adhoc ninja-maid-robot `micro dmiles_afk Oddity MoALTz__ constantinexvi ft devon Patzy foom NaNDude sz0 emaczen dougk_ emuxius arrubin marinintim Xach schoppenhauer HDurer dtw skrue xan_ jewel jrm balle fikusz larxy kanru nydel roscoe_tw dvgroc froggey whartung guiloooo honkfestival hlavaty cmatei manfoo7 araujo kjeldahl zacts salva les hitecnologys lala Zhivago PlasmaStar MrWoohoo Bike mlamari farhaven ferada setheus 2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: SAL9000 copec cods mingvs Tordek vert2 hyoyoung techiewickie ozzloy cpt_nemo Oladon capitaomorte j0ni Khisanth jdz Fleurety PuercoPop jtz wolgo vhost- lokulin dfox prince_jammys loz vap1 loke brucem pinterface1 joneshf-laptop replcated_ akkad vlnx seg smull gniourf segmond Kruppe ssake_ ssake phadthai ryankarason newcup pok sharkz_ sharkz p8m crichter eli warex zaquest tristero __main__ joast arrsim ski epitron christoph_debian mach Cthulhux bishopj` joshe 2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: jaffachief s1n4 someone TeMPOraL alex6407 troydm xristos taij33n |3b| izabera gko ktx PinealGlandOptic qlkzy nicdev K1rk funnel peterhil` wooden ahungry pchrist cross Zotan H4ns Tristam brandonz switchp0rt housel shifty779 dilated_dinosaur m_zr0 redline6561 sigjuice EnergyCoffee sfa thomas russell-- antoszka ``Erik drdo sshirokov endou___________ wizzo wolf_moz- alladia_ drmeister swflint_away daimrod johs eMBee tokik luis ecraven kini josteink ggherdov 2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: specbot clop yauz NhanH frankS2 dlowe gz stokachu birk d4gg4d Subfusc lieven rvirding XachX rotty1 cojy angus yeltzooo gabot viaken2 bcoburn axion tmh_ rj-code zmyrgel brent80_plow sjl zbigniew phf tokenrove decent stux|RC ck_ Takumo mood oGMo The_third_man zickzackv gensym spacebat1 ivan4th motumla mikaelj_ jeaye fionnan aeth nopf dim edran cantstanya ivan\ Intensity AeroNotix sellout l1x kbtr rvchangu- p_l|backup eagleflo dsp_ low-profile RazWelle1 2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: diginet musegarden metaf5 peccu larme schjetne clarkema Guest15425 _death jackdaniel samebcha1e Mandus_ nisstyre alchemis7 nightfly erg minion cibs tomaw tessier SHODAN bytecrawler renard_ theBlackDragon failproofshark Fade z0d aerique vsync wyan ineiros cmbntr ramus oconnore j_king finnrobi_ klltkr_ jayne 2015-07-02T06:53:45Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-02T06:57:14Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-02T06:58:58Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:03:50Z dkcl` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:05:16Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:05:16Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2015-07-02T07:05:16Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:05:29Z protist joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:06:10Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:08:51Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T07:11:24Z pjb: kamentomov: basically, it's an invalid form for the fundamental reason that Common Lisp DOES NOT _evaluate_ the operator! (contrary to scheme). This is done so that one may write a efficient CL compiler easily. 2015-07-02T07:11:54Z pjb: kamentomov: check chapter 3. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_.htm 2015-07-02T07:12:07Z Partmedia joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:13:05Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-02T07:13:53Z fionnan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:13:59Z fionnan joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:14:22Z kamentomov quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:14:59Z bishopj` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T07:15:15Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:18:35Z Petit_Dejeuner__ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:19:36Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:21:10Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:21:38Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:22:08Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:23:31Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:23:45Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:23:58Z wat quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:25:23Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:25:47Z kamentomov joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:25:51Z kamentomov: \quit 2015-07-02T07:25:55Z kamentomov quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-02T07:27:29Z kamentomov joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:29:11Z sdemarre1 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:30:12Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:30:12Z resttime: is there a function like #'cond which continues to evaluate even after a case is true? 2015-07-02T07:31:06Z Shinmera: resttime: Just use a couple of WHENs 2015-07-02T07:31:17Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:32:09Z resttime: Shinmera, kk gotcha 2015-07-02T07:32:13Z pjb: wobh: cvssync is another esr tool: http://www.catb.org/~esr/cvs-fast-export/cvssync.html 2015-07-02T07:32:25Z pjb: wobh: http://www.catb.org/~esr/cvs-fast-export/ 2015-07-02T07:32:42Z pjb: This is why I put everything in a single git repo, so users get all my tools at once… 2015-07-02T07:33:19Z zacharias_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-02T07:33:23Z pjb: resttime: cond is not a function. 2015-07-02T07:33:52Z aluchan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:35:41Z resttime: pjb, oh you're right, it's a macro 2015-07-02T07:36:17Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-02T07:37:30Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-02T07:38:20Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:40:10Z kamentomov: Shinmera: beach, I figured it out and I'm grateful. I wondered if there is a portable way to get the name of a function from a function object? Second thing was if I can get the name can I do something like ((function-name function) args). I'm just looking around.. no biggie 2015-07-02T07:40:32Z drmeister: Hello. 2015-07-02T07:41:02Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:41:11Z H4ns: kamentomov: you can't. what are you trying to do? why do you need to put the function object into the function expression of the s-expression? are you writing a macro? 2015-07-02T07:42:15Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:43:07Z kamentomov: I'm just poking around, H4ns. I'm not wrting a macro. "No" to both questions or? 2015-07-02T07:43:27Z ecraven: can I tell SLIME to fuzzy complete symbols? or complete at any part inside the symbol, not just the beginning? 2015-07-02T07:43:45Z Shinmera: kamentomov: There might be an implementation specific way to retrieve the name, but nothing in the standard. 2015-07-02T07:44:13Z H4ns: kamentomov: even if you have the function name, you need funcall or apply to call it 2015-07-02T07:44:16Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T07:45:00Z pjb: kamentomov: functions have between 0 and N names! 2015-07-02T07:45:30Z kamentomov: ecraven: Try M-x slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol 2015-07-02T07:46:35Z ecraven: kamentomov: thanks! 2015-07-02T07:46:45Z kamentomov: pjb: that's ok. Any portable way to get any of them? 2015-07-02T07:47:21Z kamentomov: H4ns: I see - thanks 2015-07-02T07:47:25Z pjb: kamentomov: conforming code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/132174#1 2015-07-02T07:47:45Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:48:20Z pjb: kamentomov: if you do: (defstruct p f) (defvar *v* (make-p :f (lambda (x) x))), then you could also infer a name such as (p-f *v*) for that anonymous function. 2015-07-02T07:49:16Z pjb: kamentomov: but scanning the whole image for all such references (ie. finding all the paths leading to live lisp objects), is very costly, and not 100% possible in conforming code. (eg. you can't know what's in closures). 2015-07-02T07:49:41Z FareWell joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:49:52Z pjb: So it could be possible that (funcall *f* 1) is the name of a function, but you couldn't guess it easily. 2015-07-02T07:50:34Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:51:15Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:51:58Z pjb: kamentomov: again, if you wonder why the standard doesn't include these features, it's because it was designed to allow efficient implementations on strange targets. For example, if you want to compile a CL program on a 8-bit machine with 64 KB RAM, then you cannot keep the symbol naming the lexical variables around, or the useless names of the functions, etc. 2015-07-02T07:52:06Z tristero quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:52:27Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:52:42Z pjb: On the other hand, on the machines we have nowadays, you can write a CL implementation that provides all sort of development and debugging niceties, such as this (and cf. therefore slime features). 2015-07-02T07:53:32Z tristero joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:54:46Z Zhivago: That's not quite true. 2015-07-02T07:55:02Z Zhivago: You need to remember that CL was envisioned as a compatibility layer between existing implementations. 2015-07-02T07:55:37Z Zhivago: They tried to minimize the burden on existing implementations, which is why most of the environmental introspection stuff in CLTL2 didn't make it in. 2015-07-02T07:55:53Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-02T07:56:26Z tmtwd_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:56:56Z FareWell quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T07:57:46Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-02T07:58:35Z Shinmera: kamentomov: function-lambda-expression can give you the function name, but it isn't guaranteed. 2015-07-02T07:59:06Z Shinmera: Or rather, it can give you a name, which may or may not be the name it was defined by, if it returns one at all. 2015-07-02T08:00:42Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:00:59Z pjb: Nice: The tertiary value, name, is the ``name'' of function. The name is intended for debugging only and is not necessarily one that would be valid for use as a name in defun or function. :-) 2015-07-02T08:01:06Z ndrei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T08:01:55Z kamentomov: Very interesting insides. Shinmera, that's awesome! Thanks to all! 2015-07-02T08:04:30Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:04:34Z loke: Does anyone know if iolib works on Windows? I'm using it for some low-level stuff and I somehow dooubt that it does, given just how unix-centric the API seems to be. 2015-07-02T08:05:21Z Shinmera: The trouble will probably be getting libfixposix to work. 2015-07-02T08:05:24Z john-mca` is now known as john-mcaleely 2015-07-02T08:07:34Z kamentomov quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T08:12:01Z Partmedia left #lisp 2015-07-02T08:13:10Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:13:47Z tkd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-02T08:14:17Z arquebus joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:14:37Z dim: loke: I don't think it does, but I might be wrong, fe[nl]ix is the author and shows up here at times 2015-07-02T08:14:56Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:16:40Z loke: Oh, fenlix is the author? 2015-07-02T08:17:29Z wobh: good night 2015-07-02T08:18:00Z wobh quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-02T08:18:09Z heurist` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:18:35Z kamentomov joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:18:42Z arquebus quit (Quit: konversation disconnects) 2015-07-02T08:18:59Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T08:19:17Z dim: loke: unless I'm mixing nicknames again, yeah 2015-07-02T08:19:33Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:20:14Z dim: also see #iolib 2015-07-02T08:20:16Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:20:59Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:21:30Z arquebus joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:21:42Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-02T08:23:42Z arquebus quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-02T08:24:37Z loke: According to the web page they only support linux and freebas 2015-07-02T08:24:40Z loke: freebsd 2015-07-02T08:25:28Z wat quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T08:26:14Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:27:33Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:32:02Z ecraven: kamentomov: would you happen to know what the flags mean, for slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol? they seem to be bfgctmsp, f for function, m for macro I assume? 2015-07-02T08:32:48Z loke: p = package 2015-07-02T08:32:51Z loke: c = class 2015-07-02T08:32:58Z loke: t = type 2015-07-02T08:33:25Z loke: s = special 2015-07-02T08:33:41Z loke: b = constant (if I remember correctly) 2015-07-02T08:33:50Z synergy_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T08:34:08Z loke: No, it seems to be globals 2015-07-02T08:36:20Z ecraven: loke: thanks! 2015-07-02T08:37:09Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-02T08:38:10Z spintronic quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-02T08:38:15Z loke: Oh, and g = generic function 2015-07-02T08:38:23Z loke: That should be all, I think 2015-07-02T08:38:35Z ecraven: great, thank you again! 2015-07-02T08:38:50Z spintronic joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:39:04Z ecraven: hm.. what's a global? 2015-07-02T08:39:09Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-02T08:39:11Z ecraven: boole-andc1 is one, for example 2015-07-02T08:40:06Z loke: Anything that has been DEFVAR'ed, DEFCONST or DEFPARAMETER 2015-07-02T08:40:15Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:40:21Z ecraven: thanks :) 2015-07-02T08:41:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:41:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-02T08:41:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:42:46Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T08:45:18Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:45:23Z guicho left #lisp 2015-07-02T08:45:53Z enedil joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:45:58Z enedil: hi! 2015-07-02T08:46:44Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:47:05Z enedil: Anyone knows why clisp yelds `((SETF X (READ))) should be a lambda expression` http://pastebin.com/9McrWi4i ? `main` is a one-argument function. 2015-07-02T08:47:12Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:48:08Z dim: did you try with CCL and SBCL, and do you have the same behaviour? 2015-07-02T08:48:19Z Shinmera: dim: just look at the code, it's obviously wrong 2015-07-02T08:48:19Z H4ns: line 6 is just syntactically incorrect 2015-07-02T08:48:29Z dim: Shinmera: sorry then 2015-07-02T08:48:34Z splittist: pjb: congrats on the cpp thing - the spec is truly bizarre. Should "definiting" be "defining"? 2015-07-02T08:48:50Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:48:54Z dim: condition-too-lazy 2015-07-02T08:49:06Z H4ns: enedil: you can't just put extra parentheses around something. they are more than grouping constructs as they are in arithmetic expressions. 2015-07-02T08:49:50Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T08:50:03Z Shinmera: dim: Also, I just realised I never got back to you about qt-libs on the weekend. Sorry! 2015-07-02T08:51:04Z dim: no pb 2015-07-02T08:51:40Z pjb: splittist: definitely, thanks :-) 2015-07-02T08:51:44Z Shinmera: dim: I realised that OS X doesn't have Qt as shared libraries by default, which means I need to handle deployment for those as well. Then I got fed up with it and forgot about it. 2015-07-02T08:52:27Z dim: on this topic I failed to find docs explaining how to static link against foreign libs using SBCL, which I would like to try for pgloader 2015-07-02T08:52:51Z Shinmera: iirc it's not a main feature anyway 2015-07-02T08:53:16Z Shinmera: #sbcl people might have some ideas though 2015-07-02T08:53:33Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-02T08:55:06Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:55:37Z enedil: @H4ns I know - but the setf should be distinguished from format, shouldn't it? 2015-07-02T08:55:45Z enedil: @H4ns I know - but the setf should be distinguished from format, shouldn't it? 2015-07-02T08:55:54Z enedil: H4ns: I know - but the setf should be distinguished from format, shouldn't it? 2015-07-02T08:55:54Z H4ns: e e 2015-07-02T08:56:10Z H4ns: enedil: i do not understand what you mean by that 2015-07-02T08:56:38Z enedil: Look: (setf x (read)) 2015-07-02T08:56:38Z enedil: (format t "~S~%" (main x)) 2015-07-02T08:57:11Z enedil: why do you state that I shouldn't use parentheses around setf? 2015-07-02T08:57:31Z enedil: these are different expressions 2015-07-02T08:57:37Z enedil: H4ns: 2015-07-02T08:57:57Z H4ns: enedil: you had it like ((setf x (read))) before and that was wrong. 2015-07-02T08:58:09Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-07-02T08:59:43Z guicho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T08:59:57Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-07-02T09:00:27Z pjb: enedil: check #clnoobs 2015-07-02T09:00:48Z guicho quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-02T09:01:07Z jackdaniel: enedil: maybe you did want to do something like `(,(setf x '+) 1 2 3) ? not that it makes any sense tough 2015-07-02T09:02:35Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-02T09:03:14Z enedil: H4ns: aaaah! I realized - I thought that cond macro is taking 2 args - one expression and a list, while it takes one testing expression and how-much-do-you-want args. 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(In clisp repl) 2015-07-02T10:44:01Z djh: i.e. why is it not in a list? 2015-07-02T10:46:19Z kamentomov quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-02T10:47:52Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-07-02T10:47:52Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T10:49:12Z angus: djh: 'bar and (quote bar) are the same 2015-07-02T10:51:25Z djh: ohh.. so list returns (quote bar) and then *that* evals to 'bar? 2015-07-02T10:51:41Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T10:52:01Z angus: no.. it's not evaling. the printer sees the list (quote bar) and prints it using the alternative form 2015-07-02T10:52:34Z djh: yes, that's what I meant. Poorly worded, sorry 2015-07-02T10:53:00Z pozori joined #lisp 2015-07-02T10:53:01Z pozori quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T10:54:18Z nalik891 quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-07-02T10:56:05Z Ettore left #lisp 2015-07-02T11:01:30Z easye` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-02T11:01:43Z easye joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:02:43Z Natch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T11:04:14Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:05:25Z ysagade joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:06:19Z ysagade quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T11:06:50Z angus quit (Quit: cleaning buffers...) 2015-07-02T11:07:50Z angus joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:07:57Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T11:07:57Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:08:51Z dkcl` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T11:08:57Z dkcl` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:09:43Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:11:34Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:13:35Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T11:13:47Z emma quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T11:13:50Z joga quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T11:14:44Z joga joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:15:09Z joga quit (Changing host) 2015-07-02T11:15:09Z joga joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:15:45Z dkcl` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-02T11:16:02Z 64MAC8X5W joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:16:02Z 7GHAALZTB joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:16:24Z jrm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T11:16:36Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:16:36Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-07-02T11:16:36Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:19:58Z emma joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:24:13Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:25:29Z loz: about drakma, how should one make request with utf characters in url? 2015-07-02T11:26:03Z loz: as I see, http-request has hardcoded :latin-1 stream 2015-07-02T11:26:17Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-02T11:27:13Z ysagade joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:27:52Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:28:46Z wat quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T11:29:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-02T11:30:54Z svetlyak40wt quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-07-02T11:31:35Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:31:35Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:31:47Z ysagade quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T11:34:15Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T11:34:46Z 7GHAALZTB quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T11:34:51Z 64MAC8X5W quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T11:36:36Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:40:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:41:45Z ecraven quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T11:46:45Z man213 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-02T11:48:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T11:49:39Z ysagade joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:49:51Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:50:15Z loz: any portable library to handle command line arguments? 2015-07-02T11:50:27Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:52:22Z ysagade quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T11:52:50Z ysagade joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:53:06Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:53:06Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-07-02T11:53:06Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:54:14Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-02T11:57:30Z ysagade quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-02T12:00:04Z jackdaniel: loz: url doesn't accept utf-8 characters, you have to use percent-encoding 2015-07-02T12:00:18Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T12:01:04Z loz: jackdaniel: ok, just wrote one myself 2015-07-02T12:02:45Z ysagade joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:02:58Z loz: can't get command line arguments for sbcl image now 2015-07-02T12:04:01Z ramkrsna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T12:04:45Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:04:48Z Xach: uiop:command-line-arguments is one way 2015-07-02T12:05:15Z man213 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:07:23Z ysagade quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T12:10:49Z ysagade joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:11:16Z ysagade quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T12:11:29Z ecraven joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:11:39Z ysagade joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:13:56Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-02T12:14:46Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:16:01Z ysagade quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T12:16:21Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:17:15Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:17:31Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:17:36Z mbuf quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-02T12:19:48Z ysagade joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:21:31Z FareWell joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:21:34Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-02T12:22:55Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:23:46Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:24:17Z ysagade quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T12:24:19Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:24:59Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:25:26Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:27:00Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:27:02Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:29:34Z wat quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T12:30:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T12:31:06Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T12:34:47Z FareWell left #lisp 2015-07-02T12:38:13Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:38:32Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T12:39:07Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:39:10Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T12:39:47Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T12:40:00Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:40:46Z DalekBaldwin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T12:40:50Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T12:41:16Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:42:11Z art_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:42:12Z art_ is now known as svetlyak40wt_ 2015-07-02T12:42:20Z svetlyak40wt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T12:43:16Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:43:29Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T12:46:27Z svetlyak40wt_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-02T12:47:11Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T12:48:52Z loz: is there any speed difference between (f x) and (funcall #'f x) ? 2015-07-02T12:48:53Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:49:01Z H4ns: measure. 2015-07-02T12:50:37Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:52:30Z loz: H4ns: strange thing is bytes consed: https://gist.github.com/maximvl/0d837c470f663ea32bc6 2015-07-02T12:52:44Z nyef: loz: With SBCL, the speed difference, if there is any, would be in the reader and the compiler, they should produce essentially identical code at runtime. 2015-07-02T12:54:18Z H4ns: loz: i have no explanation for the 14k consed in the second case, but as it is such a tiny amount of memory, i would just ignore it. 2015-07-02T12:54:31Z H4ns: loz: run it again to see if the amount is always the same. 2015-07-02T12:55:18Z loz: H4ns: becames less until reaches zero for both cases 2015-07-02T12:55:24Z ggole: Microbenchmarks like this aren't really reliable 2015-07-02T12:55:58Z H4ns: ggole: reliable enough in this case 2015-07-02T12:56:02Z ecraven: using sbcl, I see the opposite, consing in the first case (1968 bytes), no consing then 2015-07-02T12:56:24Z ggole: A strong compiler could easily fold away the car operation or even elide the whole loop 2015-07-02T12:56:28Z ecraven: seems rather arbitrary 2015-07-02T12:57:05Z nyef: You could DECLARE NOTINLINE, which should defeat such optimizations. 2015-07-02T12:57:40Z nyef: At which point you're testing funcall/return overhead, primarily. 2015-07-02T12:57:42Z ggole: Turning off inlining doesn't really defeat DCE 2015-07-02T12:58:33Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T12:58:54Z ggole: And even if it does, it's easy to measure something other than what you think you are measuring 2015-07-02T12:58:55Z H4ns: well, maybe using a function with side effects would be better for benchmarking, i agree. 2015-07-02T12:59:12Z H4ns: ggole: as always, it helps to know what you're doing. 2015-07-02T12:59:17Z nyef: If you declare notinline, the compiler can't know that it's side-effect-free. 2015-07-02T12:59:18Z ggole: Sure enough. 2015-07-02T13:00:16Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:00:28Z ggole: nyef: is that really true? Notinline should guarantee redefinability, but I don't think there are any promises about optimisation 2015-07-02T13:02:05Z loz: just thinking about optimizing my -> macro 2015-07-02T13:02:29Z loz: probably doesn't worth it 2015-07-02T13:02:48Z ysagade joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:04:17Z nyef: ggole: If the compiler optimizes based on what it knows about a function, and then you change the function, what it knew was wrong, and could break. 2015-07-02T13:06:53Z ggole: Guards, code invalidation and similar techniques allow for it (by preventing execution entering parts of the code in which such assumptions were used). 2015-07-02T13:06:59Z ysagade quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T13:07:09Z ggole: I don't think CL implementations tend to use these techniques though. 2015-07-02T13:07:27Z ecraven: nyef: recompile everything that uses that function 2015-07-02T13:07:33Z ecraven: isn't that what self does? 2015-07-02T13:07:34Z ggole: So in practice, I suppose you're right. 2015-07-02T13:07:54Z nyef: ecraven: Common Lisp is not Self. 2015-07-02T13:09:04Z ecraven: nyef: how does that prevent it from re-compiling things? 2015-07-02T13:10:17Z nyef: It doesn't, but it'd be a bit of work to make it happen... and mind the constraints on "minimal compilation"! 2015-07-02T13:10:45Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:15:04Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:20:57Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-07-02T13:25:23Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:25:41Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:26:20Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:29:50Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T13:30:22Z Urchin[emacs] joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:30:58Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T13:31:38Z wat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-02T13:31:55Z Posterdati: hi 2015-07-02T13:32:03Z Posterdati: please help: A non-existent ERRNO-VALUES syscall error has been signaled: UNKNOWN, 121. This seems to be a bug in IOlib. Please report it to iolib-devel@common-lisp.net 2015-07-02T13:32:15Z Posterdati: what is error 121? 2015-07-02T13:33:24Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:33:47Z mc40 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T13:33:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:33:53Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-02T13:33:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:34:45Z Xach: Posterdati: unknown. 2015-07-02T13:34:55Z Posterdati: nice 2015-07-02T13:36:23Z Urchin[emacs] left #lisp 2015-07-02T13:36:43Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:36:45Z Xach: On my system, errno 121 corresponds to EREMOTEIO, Remote I/O error. 2015-07-02T13:38:22Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:38:24Z pjb: loz: beware that the answer to your question may depends on whether you're considering a CL function or a user function. 2015-07-02T13:38:47Z pjb: loz: a CL implementation can open code any of its operators (as if they were all special operators!). 2015-07-02T13:40:29Z Posterdati: XachX: it occurs in ecl when I try to write a one byte buffer on the i2c 2015-07-02T13:43:18Z konstantin joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:46:28Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:47:18Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T13:47:56Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:49:28Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T13:50:03Z mulk_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T13:51:19Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:51:40Z prphp_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T13:55:08Z Zhivago: Note that special operators need not be open coded. 2015-07-02T13:55:20Z oleo: hello 2015-07-02T13:55:21Z Zhivago: The only special thing is that code-walkers should consider them irreducable. 2015-07-02T13:55:59Z prphp_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T13:57:45Z nyef: And there's a specific set of special operators that should be considered irreducible, and all implementation-defined extensions should have a macroexpansion as well so that codewalkers can still deal with them. 2015-07-02T13:59:32Z tkd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-02T14:00:04Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:04:19Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:06:41Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:08:56Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T14:09:21Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:10:07Z Grisha joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:10:23Z Grisha: hi everyone 2015-07-02T14:11:07Z Grisha quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-02T14:12:15Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:13:45Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T14:13:53Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T14:15:31Z wqer joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:16:11Z Grisha joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:16:13Z Grisha: hi 2015-07-02T14:16:29Z Grisha: in a macro, I would like to make use of (type-of x), where x is a parameter of the macro 2015-07-02T14:16:45Z Grisha: it always gives me SYMBOL back 2015-07-02T14:16:56Z Grisha: because macro parameters are not evaluated 2015-07-02T14:17:07Z Grisha: before macroexpansion 2015-07-02T14:17:12Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-02T14:17:13Z Grisha: is there a way to overcome it? 2015-07-02T14:20:16Z ggole: Types aren't known until runtime, in general. So no. 2015-07-02T14:20:31Z Grisha: too bad ;-( 2015-07-02T14:20:38Z ggole: You could generate code that makes use of type-of, though. 2015-07-02T14:21:27Z Grisha: the thing I'm trying to implement is something like appending (or rather unit'ing) a list to one of a struct's slots 2015-07-02T14:22:00Z man213 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-02T14:22:30Z Grisha: ideally macro would understand what struct it is and (setf (structname-slotname) (union (structname-slotname) parameter)) 2015-07-02T14:22:43Z Grisha: the question is how to get that structname 2015-07-02T14:22:54Z Grisha: given the parameter of the macro 2015-07-02T14:23:12Z ggole: Pass it as an argument? 2015-07-02T14:23:32Z Grisha: yep, would be a solution, thank you 2015-07-02T14:23:36Z jdz: Grisha: (pushnew parameter (structname-slotname))? 2015-07-02T14:23:50Z Grisha: jdz, yes 2015-07-02T14:24:07Z Grisha: I would like to derive structname automatically from parameter 2015-07-02T14:24:12Z Grisha: if it's at all possible 2015-07-02T14:24:22Z jdz: i think it's a bad idea 2015-07-02T14:24:56Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:25:09Z Grisha: I see 2015-07-02T14:25:16Z jdz: being explicit about what your code should be doing is a good idea 2015-07-02T14:25:55Z jdz: that way you could add checks in your code to actually complain when wrong (unexpected) parameters are being used 2015-07-02T14:26:30Z Grisha: a good idea 2015-07-02T14:26:41Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T14:27:06Z Grisha: i've got a couple of structures many slots of which consists of lists 2015-07-02T14:27:36Z Grisha: and I thought that automatizing addition of lists to those slots could be independet of the particular structure type 2015-07-02T14:27:44Z Grisha: *with many slots 2015-07-02T14:29:34Z wat quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T14:32:35Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T14:32:46Z jself quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T14:37:37Z Grisha: thanks a lot! 2015-07-02T14:37:39Z Grisha quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T14:39:20Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T14:39:35Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T14:40:31Z pie_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:41:41Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:43:27Z dkcl` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:46:33Z Petit_Dejeuner__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-02T14:51:44Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:53:31Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:54:31Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-02T14:54:58Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:04:36Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:05:46Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:07:18Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:08:59Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:09:08Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:10:33Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:11:26Z alexshendi joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:12:04Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:12:50Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:13:52Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-02T15:13:53Z theos: does CL have inbuilt regex? 2015-07-02T15:14:18Z nyef: Not really. You might try cl-ppcre for regex. 2015-07-02T15:15:35Z theos: why wouldnt the standard include a powerful regex? is there something better than regex? 2015-07-02T15:16:01Z nyef: When was modern regex invented? 2015-07-02T15:16:10Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-02T15:16:17Z Bike: no, it's just simple to do as a library. no need to make it a core thing.\ 2015-07-02T15:16:43Z theos: but is it faster than awk etc? 2015-07-02T15:18:07Z nyef: While regex was known as far back as '56, and appeared in unix over the '70s, perl-style regex is from about '86. 2015-07-02T15:18:24Z sdemarre2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:18:51Z nyef: The CL standard is from '84, with the last revision in '94. 2015-07-02T15:18:58Z sdemarre1 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:19:29Z theos: they should have included regex in '94 imo. no complaints 2015-07-02T15:19:39Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-02T15:19:42Z Bike: i don't have performance metrics on hand but there's no reason for it to be slower than awk 2015-07-02T15:20:44Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:20:46Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irregsexp/ here, this says it's faster than perl. 2015-07-02T15:21:15Z Bike: not perl regexes though, just regexes. 2015-07-02T15:21:16Z theos needs to learn to use repl in place of shell 2015-07-02T15:22:20Z ziocroc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T15:22:24Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:24:17Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:24:24Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:25:51Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T15:28:17Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:29:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T15:29:15Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:29:59Z dim: Bike: awk's regexp are much faster than perl ones for kickers 2015-07-02T15:30:24Z dim: https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html 2015-07-02T15:30:55Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T15:31:05Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:31:45Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:32:09Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:32:11Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:32:34Z grees joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:35:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:37:43Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:37:52Z kami: Good afternoon. 2015-07-02T15:37:52Z grees: hey.. i'm trying to get started with cl-charms and tryed to execute the examples from github (https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms) but i always get "Error in curses call". I installed cl-charms with quicklisp 2015-07-02T15:38:12Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:39:37Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:40:03Z DeadTrickster: neat sbcl error 2015-07-02T15:40:04Z DeadTrickster: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x00007fffc80146c0 *** 2015-07-02T15:40:04Z DeadTrickster: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 19626(tid 140737199404800): 2015-07-02T15:40:04Z DeadTrickster: SIGABRT received. 2015-07-02T15:40:11Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:43:32Z mc40: grees: did you run in terminal or emacs? 2015-07-02T15:43:41Z grees: emacs 2015-07-02T15:43:49Z mc40: have to be in terminal 2015-07-02T15:44:26Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:45:46Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-07-02T15:46:56Z grees: mc40: aaaah thank you! Hmm... so no nice and easy developement with emacs+slime an cl-charms ? 2015-07-02T15:47:04Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T15:47:13Z nyef: DeadTrickster: That looks like something stomped or double-freed a malloc()ed block of memory. 2015-07-02T15:47:38Z p_l: grees: start your image in terminal, start swank-server manually inside, connect to it from slime 2015-07-02T15:47:56Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:48:06Z DeadTrickster: nyef, this is actually the first time sbcl throws something like that at me 2015-07-02T15:48:36Z DeadTrickster: nyef, I just restarted my image 2015-07-02T15:48:53Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:49:02Z wat quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:49:17Z grees: p_l: what do you exactly mean with "image" ? 2015-07-02T15:49:21Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:50:08Z p_l: grees: start your lisp implementation (SBCL, CCL, etc.) in a terminal, then manually launch swank-server inside of it (don't recall the process from memory, you'll have to google), then attach to it from slime 2015-07-02T15:50:53Z wqer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T15:50:59Z grees: p_l: ah i see! thx 2015-07-02T15:52:28Z brpocock: symbol-plist / “The use of setf should be avoided, since a symbol's property list is a global resource …” / but it's fair game to (setf (get 'mypackage:mything ',sym) ,val), no? That warning surprises me 2015-07-02T15:54:38Z nell joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:55:03Z brpocock: or are symbol-plist names treated ignoring packages, so I must move carefully, I see now. 2015-07-02T15:55:45Z mc40: grees: I think this page has the steps you need http://www.cliki.net/SLIME-HOWTO 2015-07-02T15:56:02Z myrk2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T15:56:20Z grees: mc40: thanks allready followed the instructions :) 2015-07-02T15:56:42Z mc40: grees: ok cool 2015-07-02T15:57:52Z Xach: pjb: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-02/failure-report/com.informatimago.html#com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.test has new warnings 2015-07-02T15:58:25Z myrk2 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T15:58:31Z alexshendi left #lisp 2015-07-02T15:59:37Z grees: mc40: well it's not working as it should but now i know how it "should" be done :) 2015-07-02T16:03:15Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T16:03:58Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T16:05:15Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-02T16:05:33Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:06:25Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-02T16:09:24Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:10:51Z DeadTrickster: Xach, https://github.com/xach/zs3/pull/17 2015-07-02T16:11:35Z Xach: DeadTrickster: Can you give more context? What prompted you (?) to make that? 2015-07-02T16:11:41Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:12:21Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:12:31Z DeadTrickster: well as it was discussed here before chunga is flawed so we are using custom version where header names parsed as plain strings so bvalue return nil 2015-07-02T16:12:44Z Xach: We? 2015-07-02T16:12:45Z DeadTrickster: we have patched chunga and drakma 2015-07-02T16:12:55Z DeadTrickster: yep 2015-07-02T16:13:26Z DeadTrickster: why use bvalue when you have drakma:header-value anyway? 2015-07-02T16:13:37Z DeadTrickster: sounds irresponsible 2015-07-02T16:14:44Z Xach: I don't remember. 2015-07-02T16:15:55Z Xach: I suspect my code predates drakma:header-value. 2015-07-02T16:16:47Z DeadTrickster: anyway, please consider merging it. I hope it will be included in next QL release as well 2015-07-02T16:19:01Z Xach: No, thanks. 2015-07-02T16:19:13Z Xach: You should keep a private modified version of ZS3 too. 2015-07-02T16:20:54Z Brozo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T16:21:35Z DeadTrickster: private? 2015-07-02T16:22:49Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:23:39Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T16:23:42Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T16:24:19Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T16:27:27Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:28:26Z tmtwd: um, if I have clisp and sbcl, how do I configure emacs to choose between them 2015-07-02T16:29:32Z Xach: tmtwd: you can choose with C-u M-x slime 2015-07-02T16:29:43Z Xach: tmtwd: you can also edit the slime-lisp-implementations variable 2015-07-02T16:30:11Z Xach: tmtwd: you can also choose which is the default connection with the slime-connections interface 2015-07-02T16:30:13Z tmtwd: Xach, in .init.el? 2015-07-02T16:30:43Z Xach: tmtwd: sure. i use ~/.emacs. 2015-07-02T16:30:53Z tmtwd: Xach, cool 2015-07-02T16:30:57Z tmtwd: thanks :) 2015-07-02T16:32:35Z tmtwd: mapcar in lisp is basically map in scheme right? 2015-07-02T16:32:54Z tmtwd: oh, and all common lisps follow the same specs right? 2015-07-02T16:33:22Z Xach: tmtwd: they aim to conform to the standard. they all fall short in different ways, some shorter than others. and they all add their own extras. 2015-07-02T16:33:35Z nyef: Might be interesting to see a new implementation for the '84 standard. (-: 2015-07-02T16:33:50Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T16:33:56Z tmtwd: so which one most closely follows the spec? 2015-07-02T16:34:31Z nyef: Does it matter? 2015-07-02T16:35:00Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-02T16:35:01Z Xach: tmtwd: most are pretty great at it. gcl falls pretty short. i wouldn't recommend it. 2015-07-02T16:35:12Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T16:35:16Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:35:52Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:36:54Z mhd_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:39:31Z dkcl` is now known as dkcl 2015-07-02T16:39:36Z dkcl quit (Changing host) 2015-07-02T16:39:36Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:40:29Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T16:40:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:41:57Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:44:53Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:45:05Z protist quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-02T16:45:45Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:46:58Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T16:48:55Z mhd_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Can't that be implemented as a library? 2015-07-02T17:37:17Z aeth: You would just need to handle *, -, /, +, sqrt, etc. 2015-07-02T17:39:21Z GuestC6248 is now known as tengonovia 2015-07-02T17:40:33Z tyson2 left #lisp 2015-07-02T17:40:50Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-02T17:41:12Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-02T17:42:39Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-02T17:44:14Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T17:44:44Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-02T17:45:33Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-02T17:46:25Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T17:47:36Z vydd_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T17:47:58Z vydd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T17:49:09Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-02T17:49:33Z pjb: aeth: my argument was: "would it be easy to do, without reimplementing half of CL?" 2015-07-02T17:49:45Z pjb: aeth: I know the answer: no, it wouldn't. 2015-07-02T17:50:38Z wat quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T17:51:47Z pjb: You would have to shadow all the mathematical functions in a REAL-CL package, so far so good (a little impractical though). But worse, real reals call for some kind of lazyness, which means that you will have to re-implement also the comparison operators, the output operators (print princ prin1 format write etc), and perhaps a few ore. 2015-07-02T17:51:48Z pjb: more 2015-07-02T17:52:18Z pjb: aeth: furthermore all this re-implementations or wrapping has the big advantage of being very not modular, and incompatible with other re-implementations and wrappings! 2015-07-02T17:52:26Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T17:53:07Z pjb: Ie, it's a very bad situation, where we have to go metalinguistical to do it correctly, and therefore it should be included in a "superset of the Common Lisp language" standard. 2015-07-02T17:57:12Z rudolfochrist left #lisp 2015-07-02T17:58:32Z tmtwd: how do I reset the repl in slime 2015-07-02T17:58:42Z tmtwd: I did something and C-c won't won't 2015-07-02T17:58:52Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T17:59:32Z failproofshark: tmtwd: slime-restart-inferior-lisp 2015-07-02T17:59:36Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-02T17:59:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:01:34Z pjb: Xach: thanks. I wouldn't mind receiving automatic test reports by email (eg. the :maintainer or :author email in the defsystem). 2015-07-02T18:01:58Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:02:06Z pjb: tmtwd: in a repl buffer, you can also type ,restart RET 2015-07-02T18:04:42Z tengonovia quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-02T18:05:05Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:05:24Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T18:06:11Z rebelshrug joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:06:18Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:06:23Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:06:31Z pjb: Xach: I've pushed a correction. 2015-07-02T18:10:50Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:11:58Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:12:12Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T18:12:23Z les quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-02T18:14:07Z aeth: pjb: well you can use some lazy library (clazy?) to get some of the work done if it can work 2015-07-02T18:14:45Z aeth: pjb: the output operators do need to be reimplemented no matter what extension you write (we were talking about this before in the context of adding units to numbers) 2015-07-02T18:14:57Z aeth: (well, by "we" I mean #lisp) 2015-07-02T18:15:33Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:16:15Z pjb: I know. I've already done it. (cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.invoice.invoice). 2015-07-02T18:16:33Z prphp joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:17:38Z innertracks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T18:18:25Z selat_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T18:18:27Z aeth: pjb: you're right about the incompatabilities. I think the best approach might be to make it a sort of pseudo-standard or something, but a library. 2015-07-02T18:19:03Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:19:36Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:22:56Z pjb: a standard for a "superset of the Common Lisp standard" is something allowed by the Common Lisp standard. Why would you call it a pseudo-standard? 2015-07-02T18:23:02Z pjb: just write a CDR. 2015-07-02T18:24:24Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:25:09Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T18:25:13Z Adlai joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:25:33Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:26:35Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:28:39Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:28:45Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:29:05Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:29:07Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:30:42Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:31:06Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:33:21Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:35:50Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T18:36:49Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T18:36:55Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:38:17Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:38:32Z selat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T18:39:03Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:41:18Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:41:56Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:42:11Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:42:22Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:42:35Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:42:40Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:44:16Z selat_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:44:22Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:45:48Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T18:46:43Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T18:46:49Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:47:36Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:51:58Z wat quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:52:05Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:53:35Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-02T18:53:41Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:54:06Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:54:11Z kami`` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T18:54:17Z kami`` is now known as kami 2015-07-02T18:56:05Z kami` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T18:57:33Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T18:59:35Z Grue` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:00:49Z aeth: pjb: Is CDR like SRFI? 2015-07-02T19:01:19Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:01:36Z nyef: aeth: AIUI, SRFI was the inspiration for CDR. 2015-07-02T19:01:57Z aeth: ah 2015-07-02T19:02:10Z nyef: ... Or maybe it was PEP. Something like that. 2015-07-02T19:02:27Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:03:17Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T19:03:19Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:03:33Z kami` is now known as kami 2015-07-02T19:03:56Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T19:04:05Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:05:20Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T19:05:40Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:07:36Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:07:45Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:07:48Z kami quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-02T19:07:52Z kami` is now known as kami 2015-07-02T19:08:12Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T19:08:24Z aeth: What I like about Python is that there's a PEP 0008. It does a lot for readability. 2015-07-02T19:08:41Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:08:48Z aeth: (That's the style guide one.) 2015-07-02T19:09:10Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:09:28Z kami`` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:10:15Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T19:10:15Z kami`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T19:12:03Z kami`` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:12:16Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:12:40Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T19:12:53Z kami` quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-02T19:12:58Z les quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-02T19:12:58Z kami`` is now known as kami 2015-07-02T19:13:06Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:13:25Z les quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-02T19:13:51Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:14:44Z les quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-02T19:15:15Z contrapunctus: aeth: Lisp and Scheme have "readable s-expressions and sweet-expressions", what's the problem? 2015-07-02T19:15:16Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:15:16Z contrapunctus: *runs* 2015-07-02T19:17:41Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:18:46Z ggole quit 2015-07-02T19:19:02Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:20:47Z selat_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T19:20:59Z dnm joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:21:05Z lisper29 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T19:24:24Z aeth: contrapunctus: I didn't get the joke 2015-07-02T19:25:05Z aeth: But what I mean, is that there's an authoritative thing for tools to look at when it comes to Python, so quite a lot of Python has the exact same feel to it. There's some of this in Lisp these days, too. If I see )))) on a line by itself I know it's really, really, really ancient code 2015-07-02T19:26:26Z nyef: aeth: Or there's a line-comment immediately before. 2015-07-02T19:26:52Z PuercoPop: aeth: he is referencing two projects that strive for 'readabilty' by replacing the parens 2015-07-02T19:26:56Z aeth: ah 2015-07-02T19:27:39Z Xach saw ") ; end if" once or twice 2015-07-02T19:30:14Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:30:54Z contrapunctus: PuercoPop: making fun of, more like. ;) 2015-07-02T19:30:59Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:31:10Z contrapunctus: aeth: I suppose something like gofmt for Lisp could be a good idea. 2015-07-02T19:31:58Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T19:32:05Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T19:34:24Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-02T19:34:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T19:37:03Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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it seems dead 2015-07-02T21:15:29Z nyef: skrue: Apparently, there are at least two users. 2015-07-02T21:15:51Z skrue: do you get natiev style with it? 2015-07-02T21:16:28Z nyef: It's supposed to be at least theoretically possible, but I don't know that it happens. 2015-07-02T21:18:14Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-07-02T21:18:25Z capriccio5 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-02T21:18:41Z selat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T21:19:53Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-07-02T21:22:02Z DNoved1 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T21:22:36Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T21:22:39Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T21:22:39Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T21:23:38Z rebelshrug quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-02T21:24:01Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T21:24:12Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-02T21:26:02Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T21:26:07Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T21:26:38Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T21:27:16Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-02T21:30:06Z contrapunctus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T21:33:12Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T21:38:05Z dilated_dinosaur: i definitely have a love/hate relationship with lisp 2015-07-02T21:39:00Z dilated_dinosaur: that is all 2015-07-02T21:39:34Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-02T21:39:45Z Bike: okay 2015-07-02T21:39:45Z Brozo quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-07-02T21:39:53Z johs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T21:40:51Z MasterPiece quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T21:43:04Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-02T21:44:29Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, etc.) 2015-07-02T21:45:05Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T21:47:06Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T21:48:15Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-02T21:48:30Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T21:48:30Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T21:48:30Z solyd: hi. i'm considering using sbcl for a small 2d game. how hard is it? any good libraries for sound/graphics that will let me focus on the game logic? 2015-07-02T21:50:09Z nyef: solyd: There's apparently a #lispgames channel. Perhaps they'd know? 2015-07-02T21:50:28Z solyd: nyef: thanks for referring me, didn't know it existed 2015-07-02T21:52:38Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-02T21:53:00Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-02T21:55:15Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T21:59:24Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T21:59:37Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:00:11Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:01:32Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:04:38Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:04:57Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:04:59Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:08:49Z pok quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:09:42Z brpocock: “Surely, it must exist.” Is there really no existing read-table for (Clojure's) EDN notation yet? 2015-07-02T22:09:52Z pok joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:13:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:15:01Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:16:27Z dim: what's EDN notation? 2015-07-02T22:18:12Z stevegt_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:18:32Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:18:50Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:19:19Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:19:34Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:20:41Z ecraven: the more I look into the slime/swank protocol, the more it seems like just calling arbitrary lisp code over the wire :-) rather hard to emulate with Scheme :-/ 2015-07-02T22:21:45Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:22:00Z prphp quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T22:22:09Z dim: there's already a scheme equivalent 2015-07-02T22:22:15Z ecraven: not as nice as slime 2015-07-02T22:22:22Z ecraven: and MIT/GNU Scheme already has a mostly-working swank 2015-07-02T22:22:22Z brpocock: EDN is like Clojure's particular take on sexp's with [] for arrays and such. 2015-07-02T22:22:25Z dim: http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/ right? 2015-07-02T22:22:28Z ecraven: dim: yes 2015-07-02T22:22:52Z ecraven: but it is as well-documented as slime, and there is no mostly-working MIT/GNU Scheme implementation, as opposed to slime 2015-07-02T22:22:56Z dim: brpocock: something like what is to be found in http://cl21.org maybe? 2015-07-02T22:23:07Z kons quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:23:14Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:23:28Z brpocock: Meaning I have Clojure-y EDN structures that I want to read in as sexp's and wasn't hoping to roll my own reader. 2015-07-02T22:23:37Z brpocock: But, que cera cera 2015-07-02T22:26:07Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:27:04Z brpocock: and on that note, I departs shortly 2015-07-02T22:27:46Z thawes_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:29:18Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-02T22:32:15Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:34:42Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:35:10Z thawes_ is now known as thawes 2015-07-02T22:35:44Z thawes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T22:35:57Z thawes joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:36:57Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:37:05Z clog joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:37:20Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:41:22Z lpaste quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:41:38Z gendl__ quit (Quit: gendl__) 2015-07-02T22:42:06Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:42:16Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:42:33Z XachX joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:42:41Z modula joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:42:45Z quasisan1 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:42:50Z quasisane quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:43:00Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:43:14Z Neet quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:43:22Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:43:26Z Blkt joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:43:33Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:43:33Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:43:34Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:43:34Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2015-07-02T22:43:36Z lacedaemon quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:43:42Z Neet joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:43:56Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:43:56Z Blkt_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:44:05Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:44:38Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:44:53Z Carisius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T22:45:34Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:45:39Z lpaste joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:46:06Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:48:24Z brpocock quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T22:48:54Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-02T22:49:57Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-07-02T22:58:19Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-02T22:58:29Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T23:00:45Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-07-02T23:01:06Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-02T23:02:14Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-02T23:03:05Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:03:09Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:04:15Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-02T23:08:49Z ssake quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T23:09:21Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:09:45Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-02T23:14:50Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:15:24Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-02T23:18:45Z epl692 joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:19:11Z epl692: Hello 2015-07-02T23:19:56Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:20:33Z epl692: Can someone help me with defmacro "stuff". 2015-07-02T23:21:53Z akkad: sure 2015-07-02T23:22:59Z pillton: epl692: Just ask your question. There is no need to get permission to ask. 2015-07-02T23:23:11Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:26:19Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:26:28Z epl692: Alright, I am trying to make a macro that defines a function. Is that even a "thing", I mean I have heard the magic of lisp and code that writes code, I just am not sure how to do it quite yet. 2015-07-02T23:27:06Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-02T23:28:12Z nyef: Oddly enough, the DEFUN construct that is used to define functions is itself a macro. 2015-07-02T23:28:22Z pillton: Yes you can. The word macro is short for macro function. There are no restrictions on what your macro function can call. 2015-07-02T23:28:43Z nyef: (defmacro my-defun (name arglist &body body) `(defun ,name ,arglist ,@body)) 2015-07-02T23:29:45Z epl692: That kinda confuses me... I have seen that format before, but am very new with lisp 2015-07-02T23:29:47Z epl692: http://pastebin.com/9Fz4pbsd 2015-07-02T23:29:52Z epl692: is my code so far 2015-07-02T23:30:34Z pillton: I would read the macro chapter in the book "Practical Common Lisp." 2015-07-02T23:31:04Z epl692: okay, (oddly enough I just convinced my library to buy that book) 2015-07-02T23:31:18Z pillton: It is available online too. 2015-07-02T23:31:28Z epl692: I know 2015-07-02T23:31:50Z IPmonger_ joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:32:49Z pillton: You can create functions using functions too. 2015-07-02T23:32:52Z pillton: clhs fdefinition 2015-07-02T23:32:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm 2015-07-02T23:33:29Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-02T23:33:43Z Bike: epl692: you don't need to quote or capitalize nil, just so you know. 2015-07-02T23:33:49Z Walex quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-02T23:34:00Z Adlai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-02T23:34:16Z epl692: oh, didn't know that 2015-07-02T23:37:23Z epl692: Okay, so I tried to call a function to define a function with some parameters in it (basically what was in the comments of the pastebin I posted.) and it came back at me saying it had not heard of that variable. 2015-07-02T23:38:02Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:39:59Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:40:00Z pillton: epl692: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150987 2015-07-02T23:42:01Z pillton: Well look at that. SBCL's print-object method for functions doesn't honour *print-case*. 2015-07-02T23:42:16Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:42:24Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-02T23:42:28Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:43:55Z epl692: alright, so I think I need to alter my function that makes functions a bit, turn some of it into a lambda and what not. 2015-07-02T23:44:28Z oGMo: pillton: how is that? 2015-07-02T23:44:59Z epl692: thank you so much for your help! 2015-07-02T23:45:04Z heurist` joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:45:17Z pillton: oGMo: Look at the paste. It has # 2015-07-02T23:46:59Z pillton: epl692: No worries. Macros are great. Just make sure you need them before you use them though. 2015-07-02T23:47:25Z oGMo: pillton: i'm not sure you're guaranteed it doesn't, #< means "unreadable" so i'd assume it can more or less do whatever it wants 2015-07-02T23:47:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:48:12Z oGMo: though in my tests i'm seeing # so i dunno 2015-07-02T23:48:59Z oGMo: (i.e. since #< is there, "FUNCTION" isn't necessarily a symbol being printed) 2015-07-02T23:49:17Z pillton: oGMo: Yes. Yes. It is just a stylistic point. I doubt a patch would be applied anyhow given my failed attempt to remove PPRINT-NEWLINE from within PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT. 2015-07-02T23:50:20Z vydd_: I'm probably doing this in a wrong way, but how do I escape from double backquote and get quoted symbol? http://paste.lisp.org/display/150986 (3rd line ',,TYPE creates ',ELEMENT and I need 'ELEMENT) 2015-07-02T23:50:44Z oGMo: ,', probably 2015-07-02T23:50:45Z Bike: ,',thing, usually 2015-07-02T23:51:20Z vydd_: doesn't work, I get ,' and then in final expand sbcl tells me that element is not defined (so I guess it's the same as if it didn't have the quote) 2015-07-02T23:51:29Z oGMo: otherwise, you're substituting TYPE, then susbstituting whatever TYPE evaluated to (probably resulting in an error), then quoting that 2015-07-02T23:51:34Z oGMo: iirc 2015-07-02T23:54:24Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-02T23:54:26Z oGMo: also ,@rest 2015-07-02T23:54:29Z oGMo: (probably) 2015-07-02T23:54:43Z oGMo: which is your issue, it looks like 2015-07-02T23:55:00Z vydd_: oh, wow. let me check that 2015-07-02T23:55:03Z oGMo: well that and it should be ,', 2015-07-02T23:55:31Z Bike: (list* 'make-instance ',type (attrs->init attrs)) :/ 2015-07-02T23:59:08Z vydd_: firstly, oGMo was right in that I needed ,@ ; thanks! left it out sometime during rewrites, and of course, I wasn't even getting "element unbound" anymore 2015-07-02T23:59:24Z vydd_: Bike: I'll try that now 2015-07-02T23:59:39Z Bike: ogmo's right though probably 2015-07-02T23:59:52Z Adlai joined #lisp 2015-07-03T00:01:31Z Adlai quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-03T00:01:43Z vydd_: Well, he is in that I missed that, but it doesn't solve it completely. I only get a .."friendlier".. error. 2015-07-03T00:02:19Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-03T00:03:51Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T00:07:31Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-03T00:08:41Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T00:10:29Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T00:11:13Z Walex2 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T00:11:14Z Walex quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T00:19:09Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-03T00:22:55Z oGMo: vydd_: what are you getting now? 2015-07-03T00:23:18Z vydd_: Bike, oGMo: thanks! I used oGMo's fix and Bike's list idea to produce something not pretty, but functional 2015-07-03T00:23:45Z vydd_: oGMo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150988 that works :\ 2015-07-03T00:24:39Z oGMo: that is possibly easier to read than double backquoting 2015-07-03T00:24:52Z vydd_: yeah 2015-07-03T00:24:56Z oGMo: although, list* 2015-07-03T00:25:44Z oGMo: (like Bike said originally, save an APPEND) 2015-07-03T00:26:10Z vydd_: that didn't work; I probably made a mistake somewhere then 2015-07-03T00:26:43Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T00:28:17Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T00:29:14Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: I reverted the removal of those .asd files for the moment 2015-07-03T00:29:27Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: thanks. that's really helpful. 2015-07-03T00:29:28Z adjl joined #lisp 2015-07-03T00:29:42Z Xach rebuilds everything 2015-07-03T00:30:00Z wooden joined #lisp 2015-07-03T00:30:00Z wooden quit (Changing host) 2015-07-03T00:30:00Z wooden joined #lisp 2015-07-03T00:30:04Z fe[nl]ix: I sent a few pull requests, but most of the projects are old and look unmaintained 2015-07-03T00:30:07Z fe[nl]ix: hard to fix 2015-07-03T00:31:10Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-03T00:31:25Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T00:32:38Z grees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T00:34:28Z vydd_: ah, got it! http://paste.lisp.org/display/150990 needed another quote. thanks again! 2015-07-03T00:36:00Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-03T00:38:07Z epl692 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-03T00:41:35Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2015-07-03T00:41:36Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-07-03T00:41:36Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T00:55:19Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T00:59:34Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:00:01Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:07:17Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T01:08:55Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:09:48Z stevegt_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T01:11:46Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:16:09Z jason_m quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-03T01:17:43Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:18:44Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T01:19:59Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-03T01:22:03Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:23:44Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:26:40Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T01:30:38Z bytecrawler quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T01:30:44Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T01:31:06Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:33:09Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T01:33:43Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:33:54Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T01:35:22Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:40:17Z Guest65_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:42:46Z Guest65_ is now known as not_tfl 2015-07-03T01:43:52Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:44:14Z sfa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T01:44:50Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:45:11Z sfa joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:46:48Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T01:47:18Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:47:24Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:47:53Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:49:20Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T01:49:37Z thawes joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:51:31Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T01:54:51Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T01:55:05Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-03T01:55:44Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T02:05:28Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:05:37Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T02:11:39Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T02:18:22Z vydd quit 2015-07-03T02:21:42Z copec joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:21:50Z RussT1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T02:22:14Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:24:38Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:25:31Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:31:07Z myrk2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T02:32:42Z myrk2 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:33:47Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T02:33:57Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:34:46Z sdemarre1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T02:37:08Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:43:21Z Slippy joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:44:40Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:47:35Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T02:50:43Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:53:24Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:54:59Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-03T02:55:06Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-03T03:00:11Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-03T03:00:46Z nyef: I think I finally have an angle on the color stuff in CLX. 2015-07-03T03:01:05Z nyef: But, at the same time, wow. The documentation is *terrible* there. 2015-07-03T03:01:14Z beach: What was the problem with it? Other than the fact that it is complicated? 2015-07-03T03:01:33Z nyef: The fact that it's undocumented, and that it is undocumented is undocumented. 2015-07-03T03:02:12Z Bike: i did find clx docs once, but it took me a while 2015-07-03T03:02:53Z nyef: Bike: The texinfo is in the manual/ directory in the clx sources. 2015-07-03T03:03:01Z beach: nyef: Maybe it is one of those cases where you have to go to the xlib documentation or to the protocol specification. 2015-07-03T03:03:08Z Bike: i'm not good at texinfo :( 2015-07-03T03:03:25Z nyef: No, it's one of those cases where you have to go to the source. 2015-07-03T03:03:25Z zRecursive left #lisp 2015-07-03T03:03:41Z beach: I use this one: http://bauhh.de/clxman/ 2015-07-03T03:03:42Z nyef: And I say this, having the xlib documentation and the protocol specification open already. 2015-07-03T03:03:42Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T03:03:55Z beach: http://bauhh.de/clxman/9_1_Colormaps_and_Colors.html 2015-07-03T03:04:25Z nyef: Find the VISUAL-INFO function in that mess. Good luck. 2015-07-03T03:05:26Z beach: There is an apropos on the on-line documentation. 2015-07-03T03:05:37Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3-dev) 2015-07-03T03:05:40Z beach: http://bauhh.de/clxman/1_6_Data_Types.html#visual-info 2015-07-03T03:05:57Z beach: http://bauhh.de/clxman/doc-index.cgi?q=visual 2015-07-03T03:06:06Z Bike: why exactly did they decide to do "cardx" instead of (unsigned-byte x) 2015-07-03T03:06:36Z nyef: Bike: Because the protocol calls it card29. 2015-07-03T03:06:56Z nyef: beach: That finds the structure, not the function. 2015-07-03T03:07:09Z beach: Hmm. 2015-07-03T03:07:21Z nyef: I *did* mention that it was undocumented, right? 2015-07-03T03:07:29Z beach: You did. 2015-07-03T03:10:41Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-03T03:11:08Z DNoved1 quit (Quit: ()) 2015-07-03T03:11:47Z theos: morning 2015-07-03T03:11:55Z beach: Hello theos. 2015-07-03T03:12:29Z adjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T03:13:47Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-03T03:16:52Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T03:17:53Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T03:18:19Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T03:21:35Z beach: So, we definitely need better documentation for CLX. 2015-07-03T03:22:05Z beach: But I would also like to see a more CLOS-y version of CLX. 2015-07-03T03:23:07Z nyef: Yeah, rewriting the CLX documentation, and possibly writing a CLX-style set of xlib bindings (so that we get easier integration with an FFI-based OpenGL) is starting to appear on my project list. 2015-07-03T03:25:29Z nyef: I could do with a more generally modern CLX, with less of the pandering to the '84 standard, lisp machines, and so on. 2015-07-03T03:26:17Z beach: Yeah. 2015-07-03T03:26:45Z nyef: Holding the API consistent, once we figure out what the actual API is, makes sense, though. 2015-07-03T03:27:24Z nyef: Still, a possible project for later. 2015-07-03T03:29:28Z bytecrawler joined #lisp 2015-07-03T03:29:39Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-03T03:32:21Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-03T03:32:58Z nyef: Tomorrow, I'm hoping to file off a number of rough edges from my graphics stuff. Colored inks, proper keyword arguments to the graphics methods, and so on. 2015-07-03T03:33:13Z Slippy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T03:33:17Z beach: Excellent! 2015-07-03T03:34:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-03T03:36:46Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-03T03:44:12Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T03:45:00Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T03:45:27Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T03:47:35Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T03:49:45Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-03T03:51:13Z nyef: Hrm... Maybe even indirect inks. 2015-07-03T03:51:52Z beach: drmeister: It will take a very long time to allocate 2^53 bytes. 2015-07-03T03:55:31Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-03T03:57:10Z beach: I should probably write a very simple type inferencer. One that only recognizes FIXNUM, CONS, NULL, LIST, and T. 2015-07-03T03:57:25Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T03:57:38Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-03T03:58:09Z nyef: Be careful, type system representation can be a nightmare. 2015-07-03T03:58:27Z beach: Yeah, that's why I want to do a simple thing first. 2015-07-03T03:58:42Z beach: Just to get immediate benefit without too much complexity. 2015-07-03T03:58:55Z Zhivago: That often leads to painting yourself into corners later. 2015-07-03T03:59:11Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T03:59:16Z Zhivago: Still, the CL type system is pretty pathetic, so it might not be a big deal. 2015-07-03T03:59:40Z Zhivago: I'd suggest class inference rather than type inference might be what you're actually looking for. 2015-07-03T04:00:26Z nyef: The amount of trouble SBCL has had due to broken type representations... 2015-07-03T04:00:27Z beach: That won't help with FIXNUM. 2015-07-03T04:00:56Z Zhivago: It will if you set up a system class corresponding to FIXNUM. 2015-07-03T04:01:06Z Zhivago: Which is what you should be doing, anyhow. 2015-07-03T04:01:51Z beach: In Cleavir, I may not have a choice, since it is meant to be implementation-independent (or implementation-configurable). 2015-07-03T04:02:02Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-03T04:02:26Z beach: You can of course say that I shouldn't be doing things like Cleavir. 2015-07-03T04:02:50Z Zhivago: Nah, just put it down as "types that really ought to be classes". 2015-07-03T04:03:20Z beach: In SICL, it's obviously a class. 2015-07-03T04:03:29Z Zhivago: The same nonsense applies to all of those array specializations as well. 2015-07-03T04:03:51Z nyef: A separate class for each specialization? What? 2015-07-03T04:04:06Z nyef: Does that apply to dimensionality as well? 2015-07-03T04:04:08Z beach: That's what I was planning for SICL. 2015-07-03T04:04:12Z Zhivago: The upgraded types correspond to implementation classes. 2015-07-03T04:04:17Z beach: not dimensions, no. 2015-07-03T04:04:51Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-03T04:05:19Z Zhivago: if you limit your type inference to dealing with 'types that correspond to things that are implementation classes even if CL got it wrong', then it should be pretty straight-forward. 2015-07-03T04:05:21Z not_tfl quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-03T04:05:59Z beach: Sounds right. 2015-07-03T04:07:32Z beach: And that will likely get most of the benefits in terms of performance. 2015-07-03T04:08:08Z beach: ... simply because the instructions to be used correspond to those classes. 2015-07-03T04:08:19Z Zhivago: Yes. 2015-07-03T04:08:30Z Zhivago: Then you can add actual types on top at some later time. 2015-07-03T04:09:17Z beach: I tend to agree. 2015-07-03T04:10:50Z beach: I decided early on that there is no point in representing a type such as (OR (ARRAY DOUBLE-FLOAT) (ARRAY SINGLE-FLOAT)) 2015-07-03T04:11:13Z beach: Because at least one test is required anyway to determine which one of the two it is. 2015-07-03T04:11:47Z beach: So, might as well make it T. 2015-07-03T04:12:00Z Bike: you could still do some optimizations with that, they're just harder and get less return 2015-07-03T04:12:07Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-03T04:12:27Z beach: People who care about performance will not have that kind of type uncertainty in their code anyway. 2015-07-03T04:14:27Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T04:15:03Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T04:16:24Z nyef: They'll use a MACROLET to produce two copies of the code? 2015-07-03T04:17:01Z beach: No, they will decide on one or the other and stick a declaration in there. 2015-07-03T04:17:39Z nyef: And if they need to support both, they'll use a MACROLET to produce both versions. 2015-07-03T04:17:53Z beach: Something like that. 2015-07-03T04:18:24Z Bike: lexical deftype, where are you 2015-07-03T04:19:30Z nell joined #lisp 2015-07-03T04:21:40Z pillton: Bike: Yes yes. Where are you?! 2015-07-03T04:21:52Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-03T04:28:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T04:28:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-03T04:29:43Z pillton: Lexical types, interpreted functions and a compiler. What a combination that would be. It would save so much effort. 2015-07-03T04:37:29Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T04:48:10Z drmeister: beach: FIXNUMP is now inlining in Cleavir+Clasp 2015-07-03T04:48:15Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-03T04:48:19Z beach: Excellent! 2015-07-03T04:49:04Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T04:54:08Z beach: drmeister: In the second code example you gave me, are you saying that it prints EXPAND several times? 2015-07-03T04:54:22Z drmeister: Yes, here is the output from Clasp. 2015-07-03T04:54:24Z beach: drmeister: It is not doing that here. 2015-07-03T04:54:44Z beach: Here, EXPAND is printed only once. 2015-07-03T04:56:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Yn0UbO4M/ 2015-07-03T04:56:50Z beach: Here, EXPAND is printed only once. 2015-07-03T04:56:50Z drmeister: When I COMPILE-FILE this source file: 2015-07-03T04:57:15Z drmeister: So it's on my end, or an interaction between Clasp and Cleavir 2015-07-03T04:57:20Z drmeister: tracing... 2015-07-03T04:57:42Z beach: It must be that your compile-file somehow calls generate-ast several times. 2015-07-03T04:58:58Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-03T04:59:25Z stevegt_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T04:59:28Z drmeister: Tracing generate-ast 2015-07-03T04:59:31Z freston joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:01:43Z keen__________10 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:03:12Z keen___________9 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-03T05:04:08Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/xJJuKfwX/ 2015-07-03T05:04:48Z drmeister: Line 87 it calls GENERATE-AST with the EVAL-WHEN 2015-07-03T05:05:43Z drmeister: The 6 EXPAND's are all printed within the one call to GENERATE-AST 2015-07-03T05:06:10Z beach: drmeister: EVAL-WHEN processing involves calling EVAL. 2015-07-03T05:06:24Z beach: I think CLEAVIR-ENV:EVAL. 2015-07-03T05:06:45Z beach: You might have a look at what you are doing in your method on that function. 2015-07-03T05:07:25Z drmeister: Oh, you know what, I'm probably compiling whatever is being passed to EVAL 2015-07-03T05:08:01Z beach: I am doing that here. Yet, it only expands once here. 2015-07-03T05:12:30Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-03T05:13:09Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/NDzuhUdm/ 2015-07-03T05:13:57Z drmeister: I'll try and generate a backtrace every time it traces into CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:EVAL 2015-07-03T05:15:11Z drmeister: The problem is probably on my side. I'll dig deeper. I'll tell you how it turns out tomorrow. It's getting kind of late for me and I'm a bit jet lagged. 2015-07-03T05:15:23Z beach: OK. 2015-07-03T05:15:40Z drmeister: I'm also working on inlining fixnum-+ 2015-07-03T05:15:53Z drmeister: Do you have a few minutes and I can describe what I'm doing? 2015-07-03T05:16:01Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-03T05:17:19Z drmeister: I'm working toward the final solution - currently it looks like this: 2015-07-03T05:17:19Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/SN7ToMBt/ 2015-07-03T05:18:02Z drmeister: Then I look at the code for (cleavir-compile 'tadd '(lambda (x y) (test-two-arg-+ x y))) 2015-07-03T05:18:06Z pranavrc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-03T05:19:18Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T05:19:21Z drmeister: Uh, that should be z on line 9 I think 2015-07-03T05:19:33Z beach: Yes, it should. 2015-07-03T05:19:36Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-03T05:19:54Z drmeister: Fixed 2015-07-03T05:19:55Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:20:18Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:20:26Z drmeister: Compiling... 2015-07-03T05:21:16Z hlavaty quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T05:21:37Z drmeister: When I evaluate this: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'tadd '(lambda (x y) (test-two-arg-+ x y))) 2015-07-03T05:21:43Z drmeister: I get this error: 2015-07-03T05:21:54Z drmeister: The slot CLEAVIR-AST::%TYPE-SPECIFIER in the object # is unbound. 2015-07-03T05:22:31Z beach: Hmm. 2015-07-03T05:23:26Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-03T05:24:43Z beach: That slot is set by a call to REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE. Is it possible that you have a problem with that function? 2015-07-03T05:24:54Z beach: Oh, no wait. 2015-07-03T05:24:56Z beach: My bad. 2015-07-03T05:25:38Z beach: It is initialized by a call to make-typeq-ast. 2015-07-03T05:25:53Z beach: So I don't see how it can be unbound. 2015-07-03T05:26:10Z beach: Oh, hold on... 2015-07-03T05:27:41Z beach: No, false alarm 2015-07-03T05:27:53Z beach: I thought it might be that this particular slot does not get cloned. 2015-07-03T05:28:09Z beach: Let me make an experiment. 2015-07-03T05:28:40Z drmeister: No problem. 2015-07-03T05:28:40Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:30:11Z beach: Yes, cloning that AST doesn't work. 2015-07-03T05:31:07Z beach: OK, that will give me something to do today. 2015-07-03T05:31:31Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:32:16Z beach: Thanks for pointing that out. 2015-07-03T05:32:36Z drmeister: Why would cloning that AST be problematic? 2015-07-03T05:32:57Z beach: I am guessing because that slot doesn't contain an AST. 2015-07-03T05:32:59Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T05:33:12Z beach: It ought to be the case that such slots are just copied over. 2015-07-03T05:33:39Z drmeister: Oh, because it contains the unevaluated type? 2015-07-03T05:33:54Z beach: Because it contains an S-expression rather than an AST. 2015-07-03T05:35:09Z drmeister: Ok, well I have stuff to do as well wrt macros. 2015-07-03T05:35:33Z beach: And you need to investigate why it expands several times. 2015-07-03T05:35:40Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-07-03T05:36:36Z beach: If it expands 4 or 5 times when it ought to do 1, then that could kill compilation performance. 2015-07-03T05:38:08Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:38:35Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-03T05:38:36Z drmeister: We've talked about this before but I find this part really hard to think about When cleavir-environment:eval is invoked I use bclasp to compile the form if it is an atom and cclasp to compile it if it is a cons - does that sound appropriate? 2015-07-03T05:38:41Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T05:39:20Z beach: Maybe so. 2015-07-03T05:39:26Z drmeister: Maybe that needs more explanation. 2015-07-03T05:39:36Z beach: It depends on other things as well. 2015-07-03T05:39:48Z beach: It would not be enough for SICL for instance. 2015-07-03T05:40:04Z drmeister: Interesting - please go on. 2015-07-03T05:40:09Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:40:17Z beach: I have compound forms for which invoking the compiler would make it go into an infinite computation. 2015-07-03T05:40:30Z beach: So I need to handle those specially as well. 2015-07-03T05:41:01Z drmeister: What sort of forms would do that? 2015-07-03T05:41:27Z beach: (sicl-global-environment:global-environment) for instance. 2015-07-03T05:41:59Z beach: or (sicl-global-environment:function-cell 'sicl-global-environment:function-cell) 2015-07-03T05:42:46Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-03T05:42:51Z drmeister: I don't know how you think about or see that? It's impenetrable to me. Do you have any insight you could share? 2015-07-03T05:42:56Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T05:42:59Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:43:21Z beach: No, you would have to understand how SICL first-class global environments work in order to understand that. 2015-07-03T05:43:46Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:43:52Z smull quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T05:44:00Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:44:16Z drmeister: Ok - I can see that. I was thinking in terms of what would I be looking for in cleavir+clasp that would produce the same problem. Although - I'm not encountering infinite loops. 2015-07-03T05:44:17Z beach: It just so happens that compiling one of those forms would generate a request to evaluate the same form again, so it would go into an infinite computation. 2015-07-03T05:44:33Z johs joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:44:52Z beach: That is why I don't think your problem is related to whether you call the compiler or the bclasp evaluator. 2015-07-03T05:45:21Z smull joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:45:26Z drmeister: When I trace cleavir-environment:eval I don't see nested evals. 2015-07-03T05:45:36Z beach: Right. 2015-07-03T05:45:44Z beach: It appears it is called several times. 2015-07-03T05:46:28Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:46:49Z drmeister: I think if I can print a backtrace every time cleavir-environment:eval then I should be able to track down the problem. 2015-07-03T05:47:15Z beach: Yeah, you need to find out from what function EVAL is called. 2015-07-03T05:48:53Z beach: Or, you can put a (break) in your method on EVAL. 2015-07-03T05:49:02Z beach: And look at the backtrace manually. 2015-07-03T05:52:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:53:25Z beach: I think I know why cloning is not working. I'll try to fix it today. 2015-07-03T05:55:07Z wobh: ugh. 2015-07-03T05:55:59Z wobh: I want a memoized slot, but it's for what's currently a struct. I think it's gotta be a class. 2015-07-03T05:57:20Z decent quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T05:57:36Z decent joined #lisp 2015-07-03T05:59:44Z drmeister: beach: Thank you 2015-07-03T06:04:36Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-03T06:06:56Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-03T06:11:15Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T06:12:55Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-03T06:14:15Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-03T06:17:58Z beach: drmeister: You can try it now. 2015-07-03T06:18:05Z beach: I think I fixed the cloning problem. 2015-07-03T06:18:54Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T06:19:06Z drmeister: I'll try it in a few minutes - just finishing a report 2015-07-03T06:19:27Z beach: Sure, no rush. 2015-07-03T06:19:31Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T06:19:34Z beach: Just saying. 2015-07-03T06:21:09Z nell joined #lisp 2015-07-03T06:21:31Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T06:23:09Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T06:26:22Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-03T06:26:43Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T06:26:44Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T06:32:00Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T06:49:09Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-03T06:50:32Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-03T06:51:56Z lewis1711 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T06:52:07Z lewis1711: has anybody tried using s-expressions for algebra? 2015-07-03T06:52:31Z beach: What kind of algebra? 2015-07-03T06:53:46Z beach: I think the traditional AI programs doing math stuff use s-expressions. I forget what they were called now. "tutor" maybe? 2015-07-03T06:54:08Z beach: Also, symbolic derivation typically uses s-expressions. 2015-07-03T06:54:20Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-07-03T06:54:30Z lewis1711: beach, just in general. symbolic stuff. I mean by hand. right now I am trying to verify that i^2 = -1, given the definition of complex number multiplication 2015-07-03T06:55:13Z beach: You are much better off with s-expressions for any type of symbolic manipulation than you are with traditional math notation, for sure. 2015-07-03T06:55:54Z lewis1711: for a CAS, I would agree. I am struggling a bit to do it myself though. could be a lack of practice, but I consider myself "fluent" in s-expressions usually 2015-07-03T06:57:19Z beach: The advantage of s-expressions when you do it "by hand" is that you can usually write an Emacs macro to do some tedious simplification or other manipulation. 2015-07-03T06:58:09Z beach: That way, you are also more confident that you made fewer mistakes. 2015-07-03T06:58:55Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:00:52Z lewis1711: well that's not really by hand. that's the machine parsing s-expressions 2015-07-03T07:01:15Z beach: Whatever. 2015-07-03T07:02:24Z beach: Then no, whatever you do, don't use S-expressions. 2015-07-03T07:03:43Z lala quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-03T07:05:01Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-03T07:08:13Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:08:21Z mlamari_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:08:23Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:08:30Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:08:50Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:09:03Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:09:27Z lewis1711: polish notation works OK. ie, assume fixed arity, not LISP where any distributive function has variable arity 2015-07-03T07:09:42Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:10:06Z modula joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:10:45Z funnel_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:10:48Z pinterface joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:10:55Z aerique quit (Quit: ...) 2015-07-03T07:11:03Z kbtr_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:11:05Z eli quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:06Z defaultxr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T07:11:06Z fionnan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:06Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:06Z salv0 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:06Z MoALTz__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:06Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:06Z pinterface1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:06Z kbtr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:08Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2015-07-03T07:11:12Z smull quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:12Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:12Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:12Z mlamari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:12Z dfox quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:11:18Z funnel_ is now known as funnel 2015-07-03T07:11:19Z salv00 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:11:20Z smull joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:11:26Z fionnan joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:11:42Z cmatei joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:11:45Z aerique joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:12:46Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:13:31Z beach: Lisp uses polish notation. 2015-07-03T07:14:25Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:14:54Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:16:14Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:19:58Z dfox joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:22:12Z theos: did the poles invent lisp? 2015-07-03T07:22:49Z antoszka: AFAIR McCarthy was *not* a Pole. :) 2015-07-03T07:22:55Z lewis1711: beach, right, I mean parens free polish notation (fixed arity functions) 2015-07-03T07:31:52Z beach: OK, time to get to work! 2015-07-03T07:31:55Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-03T07:32:20Z replcated joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:33:30Z replcated_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:33:30Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:33:30Z mach joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:35:30Z sheilong quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:35:45Z akkad: is defining env vars from inside lisp in the spec? 2015-07-03T07:35:51Z tkd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:37:18Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:39:48Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:40:01Z akkad: noo 2015-07-03T07:40:15Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:41:27Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T07:42:16Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:43:57Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:44:00Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:45:14Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:46:24Z coetry joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:46:34Z coetry: how do you all see lisp in relation to the web assembly announcement? 2015-07-03T07:47:06Z coetry: seems like a huge step forward for all progamming languages, a wide door has been opened, pandora's box maybe? 2015-07-03T07:47:12Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:47:44Z theos: what web assembly announcement? 2015-07-03T07:48:22Z coetry: https://medium.com/javascript-scene/what-is-webassembly-the-dawn-of-a-new-era-61256ec5a8f6 2015-07-03T07:48:28Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:49:06Z Baggers: coetry: does seem pretty cool. having a standard that will (thanks to browser wars) get implemented fairly well is exciting. 2015-07-03T07:49:08Z coetry: basically, the web is getting native byte code and javascript no longer rules 2015-07-03T07:49:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T07:49:49Z coetry: yeah, it's language agnostic which is the beautiful part, i truly see this as a point of rejoicing for all language communities (those who whish to hack the web) 2015-07-03T07:50:11Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:50:20Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-07-03T07:50:42Z coetry: but now parenscript is no longer necessary, or atleast it shouldn't target javascript anymore. A fork of the project should target wasm 2015-07-03T07:50:58Z coetry: Huge performance gains in execution and coding 2015-07-03T07:51:56Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:52:12Z ircbrows- is now known as ircbrowse 2015-07-03T07:52:19Z coetry: Here are the design docs for those interested: https://github.com/WebAssembly/design 2015-07-03T07:52:19Z tyrannozarus_001 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T07:52:30Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-03T07:52:43Z theos: oh assembly language for the web! i always wanted that! 2015-07-03T07:55:07Z coetry: theos, yeah man they are talking about created an LLVM backend, this has massive potential 2015-07-03T07:56:08Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T08:00:58Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T08:02:05Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:03:20Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T08:04:34Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-03T08:05:30Z coetry quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-03T08:06:04Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:06:17Z pjb: minion: memo for coetry: I'm prepared, my code is AGPL3. 2015-07-03T08:06:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell coetry when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-03T08:07:45Z defaultxr quit (Quit: defaultxr) 2015-07-03T08:10:13Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:10:53Z pt1 quit 2015-07-03T08:12:44Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:19:28Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-03T08:22:27Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T08:22:27Z BRFPocock joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:22:31Z selat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T08:23:01Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:24:07Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:24:46Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-03T08:25:52Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:31:04Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T08:32:34Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:33:40Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:34:00Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T08:35:30Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-03T08:36:06Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:39:47Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T08:40:28Z jackdaniel: webdev is perfect implementation of lisp idea - like lisp puts language in the language, webdev implement operating system in the operating system ;-) 2015-07-03T08:40:36Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:44:06Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T08:44:08Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:44:25Z kami quit (Changing host) 2015-07-03T08:44:25Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:45:21Z akkad: well the real power is wasm on the server side, once browsers are found to be too slow 2015-07-03T08:45:45Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:45:49Z akkad: flashbacks to the comments made about java applets 2015-07-03T08:46:10Z jackdaniel: why do you need wasm to utilize *anything* on server side? 2015-07-03T08:46:25Z milosn quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-03T08:48:09Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:48:09Z akkad: ^^ re: javascript, java 2015-07-03T08:48:35Z akkad: browser tech always ends up on server side 2015-07-03T08:48:40Z akkad: e.g. mongodb 2015-07-03T08:49:09Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:49:42Z jackdaniel goes back to merging android support into ecl devel branch 2015-07-03T08:50:31Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T08:51:49Z wobh chuckles morbidly at the thought of Oracle suing Mozilla for trademark infringement. 2015-07-03T08:54:36Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-03T08:56:27Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T08:57:10Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-03T08:58:35Z cosmicexplorer joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:00:37Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T09:01:04Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T09:01:07Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:04:27Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T09:05:43Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:06:15Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:06:57Z knobo: When I post a file to caveman2 how do I get the content of the file? 2015-07-03T09:08:15Z kamentomov joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:10:25Z kamentomov: I'm trying to find out why the following print form runs at run time. Your help will be appreciated. (defmacro rev-setq (val var) (print "ran") `(setq ,var ,val)) 2015-07-03T09:12:27Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:12:28Z H4ns: kamentomov: it does not, from visual inspection. 2015-07-03T09:12:39Z H4ns: kamentomov: provide a full example on paste.lisp.org 2015-07-03T09:12:53Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T09:12:54Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T09:14:52Z kamentomov: Thanks a lot, H4ns. That's the whole thing beside the test call (let (a) (rev-setq 4 a) a). I put in a file, I compiled it and executed it in the REPL. How can I test it properly? 2015-07-03T09:14:53Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:15:38Z H4ns: how do you "execute a file in the repl"? 2015-07-03T09:16:01Z kamentomov: with (let (a) (rev-setq 4 a) a) 2015-07-03T09:16:11Z kamentomov: and it prints the string 2015-07-03T09:16:15Z H4ns: of course. 2015-07-03T09:16:32Z H4ns: your expression is first macroexpanded, then evaluated 2015-07-03T09:16:33Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:16:52Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T09:16:53Z kamentomov: how to get it not to print it? I need to demo it to someone 2015-07-03T09:17:06Z H4ns: what is "it" that you want to demonstrate? 2015-07-03T09:17:21Z kamentomov: that it does not execute the print in run time 2015-07-03T09:17:38Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:17:57Z H4ns: put (defun x (let (a) (rev-setq 4 a) a)) into the file, then call (x) on the repl 2015-07-03T09:18:17Z H4ns: you will see the print be executed when you compile the file, but not when you call x 2015-07-03T09:18:36Z kamentomov: thanks a LOT 2015-07-03T09:18:45Z H4ns: anything entered in the repl will first be read, then evaluated, then printed. note how "read" is part of REPL 2015-07-03T09:18:56Z kamentomov: right 2015-07-03T09:20:35Z marcoecc joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:20:43Z ninja-maid-robot quit (Quit: fix config) 2015-07-03T09:21:06Z ninja-maid-robot joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:23:21Z kamentomov quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-03T09:23:32Z huza joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:25:57Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:27:54Z marcoecc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T09:29:27Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-03T09:30:34Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:34:43Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:35:50Z knobo: This was quite difficult to find out of. 2015-07-03T09:36:05Z knobo: The caveman2 documentation does not say anything about posting files 2015-07-03T09:37:00Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T09:38:29Z harish quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T09:38:32Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T09:38:37Z knobo: It's probably easy.. 2015-07-03T09:38:42Z akkad: welcome to lisp projects :P 2015-07-03T09:38:58Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-03T09:39:03Z knobo: Someting like adding a -filecontents to the variable... 2015-07-03T09:39:09Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T09:39:32Z knobo: akkad: but, usualy it's easy to read it from the source. 2015-07-03T09:39:41Z knobo: but not in this case. 2015-07-03T09:40:45Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:43:00Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T09:43:07Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:46:15Z knobo: hunchentoot has the post-parameter that tells where the file was stored. 2015-07-03T09:46:58Z knobo: Maybe I have to mix in a hunchentoot handler, if it is possible. 2015-07-03T09:48:55Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-03T09:50:59Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T09:51:19Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T09:57:14Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T09:59:17Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:07:19Z pjb: H4ns: that's not the point, since the macroexpansion will occur during EVAL! 2015-07-03T10:07:36Z pjb: Since eval is passed source code (a sexp), by the REPL, it will have two choices: 2015-07-03T10:07:50Z pjb: either interpret it, therefore macroexpand the macro while interpreting it, at "run-time". 2015-07-03T10:08:22Z pjb: or put it in a lambda form, compile it, and call it, which means that it will macroexpand during compilation and then run it. But both are still done inside EVAL. 2015-07-03T10:08:31Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:09:12Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:13:34Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:13:38Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:14:59Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:17:37Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T10:18:23Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:18:23Z knobo: If I have a flexi-streams::vector-input-stream, how do I get the whole content of the stream? 2015-07-03T10:18:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:19:09Z pjb: I'd try: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.stream:contents-from-stream stream) 2015-07-03T10:19:10Z freston quit (Quit: freston) 2015-07-03T10:19:15Z pjb: if it's a STREAM, it should work. 2015-07-03T10:19:51Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:20:40Z lewis1711 left #lisp 2015-07-03T10:21:54Z knobo: is not of type ... 2015-07-03T10:22:29Z pjb: I thought flexi-stream used gray-streams… 2015-07-03T10:22:38Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:22:57Z themattchan joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:23:03Z themattchan is now known as mach 2015-07-03T10:23:04Z pjb: Perhaps you could make a derived work of com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.stream:contents-from-stream for flexi-streams? 2015-07-03T10:23:10Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:23:15Z dilated_dinosaur: I made a thing, any feedback welcome https://github.com/ivankocienski/with-struct 2015-07-03T10:23:36Z ahungry_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:23:39Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: what about with-accessors? 2015-07-03T10:23:51Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:24:14Z dilated_dinosaur: hmm- isn't that like with-slots? 2015-07-03T10:25:01Z dilated_dinosaur: and uses CLOS foo to work its magic 2015-07-03T10:25:07Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: how do you deal with (defstruct (point (:conc-name pt-)) x y) ? 2015-07-03T10:26:05Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:26:21Z dilated_dinosaur: its not a very smart macro- so you would just supply 'struct name' and 'thing you want aliased in struct' as arguments 2015-07-03T10:26:35Z dilated_dinosaur: and it just blindly tries to substitute it 2015-07-03T10:26:57Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:27:06Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: my point is that with structures, it's useless to know the type of the structure to find out the name of the accessors. 2015-07-03T10:27:22Z pjb: That's why in with-accessors, you just give the name of the accessors. 2015-07-03T10:28:33Z dilated_dinosaur: yeah, but with-accessors then uses CLOS to do some introspection at run time to tie the pieces together 2015-07-03T10:29:35Z dilated_dinosaur: this macro is simply taking an argument 'structure' and glueing it to 'struct name'. there is no intelligent type determination going on 2015-07-03T10:30:39Z dilated_dinosaur: (it was also an excuse for me to scratch an itch and practice macro foo) 2015-07-03T10:31:14Z minion quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:32:01Z minion joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:33:22Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:35:12Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:36:58Z knobo: FLEXI-STREAM inherits TRIVIAL-GRAY-STREAM-MIXIN 2015-07-03T10:37:51Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:38:06Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: with-accessors is not specified to use CLOS. Just symbol-macrolet. 2015-07-03T10:38:16Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: you are confusing with with-slots. 2015-07-03T10:39:08Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:40:08Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: you could scratch more, and having a define-structure macro that would record the arguments and generated accessor names, to be used by your with-struct macro. This would teach you how to pass information from the compilation environment to the compilation environment, and from the compilation environment to the run-time environment (possibly thru a load time). This is not entirely trivial, and a good subject in 2015-07-03T10:40:08Z pjb: macro writing to learn ;-) 2015-07-03T10:40:41Z pjb: knobo: why is flexi-streams::vector-input-stream not exported? 2015-07-03T10:40:42Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:41:18Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:42:20Z knobo: I don't know. 2015-07-03T10:42:34Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:42:43Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T10:43:22Z knobo: I'm cheating now, and doing (slot-value f 'flexi-streams::vector) 2015-07-03T10:43:36Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:43:39Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:43:43Z knobo: I can se that the length of the vector is equal to the file I upleaded 2015-07-03T10:44:04Z knobo: But when I write it out, image-viewers does not recoginze it 2015-07-03T10:44:23Z knobo: does it have to do with the order of the bytes? 2015-07-03T10:44:59Z pjb: I've pushed a patch to make it work: (with-input-from-sequence (in #(1 2 3 4 5)) (contents-from-stream in)) --> #(1 2 3 4 5) 2015-07-03T10:45:56Z pjb: Just replace the first two lines of the body with: 2015-07-03T10:45:56Z pjb: (let ((dirs (and (typep stream 'file-stream) 2015-07-03T10:45:56Z pjb: (pathname-directory (pathname stream))))) 2015-07-03T10:45:56Z pjb: (if (and dirs 2015-07-03T10:45:59Z pjb: 2015-07-03T10:46:23Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:48:17Z jackdaniel: it's nice to discover such perls in ecl. JG after 13.5.1 implemented abstract machine type, so ecl can generate C code for cross-compilation with nice and portable way 2015-07-03T10:48:45Z jackdaniel: s/perls/pearls/ I think 2015-07-03T10:49:30Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:50:14Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:51:01Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:53:10Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:53:15Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-03T10:54:51Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-03T10:59:56Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:01:50Z wizzo is now known as _wizzo 2015-07-03T11:03:42Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-03T11:04:53Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:05:07Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:06:24Z _wizzo is now known as wizzo 2015-07-03T11:06:33Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-03T11:12:10Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:12:10Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-07-03T11:12:10Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:15:57Z tyrannozarus_001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-03T11:16:36Z knobo: There is something buggy about this, because the stream does not contain the file. it contains the whole multipart document 2015-07-03T11:16:42Z knobo: But it's size is the same as the file 2015-07-03T11:20:16Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-03T11:20:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T11:24:22Z Xach: pjb: i do not see any correction in com.informatimago's warning i mentioned earlier 2015-07-03T11:26:48Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:29:06Z knobo: so, when I am in sldb, can I jump to the definition of a method? 2015-07-03T11:30:38Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:30:44Z loke: knobo: yes. press v 2015-07-03T11:30:49Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:34:28Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:36:51Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T11:39:12Z dilated_dinosaur: pjb: hmm- interesting. thanks. will keep that in mind if and when my needs need satisfying again ;) 2015-07-03T11:39:17Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T11:40:05Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:41:17Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-03T11:42:11Z kons joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:44:07Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:48:14Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T11:50:14Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T11:50:40Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-03T11:54:06Z techiewickie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T11:55:36Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-03T11:56:28Z knobo: Would it be possible to jump from the sldb to trace the function (step by step)? 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directive in format? 2015-07-03T13:07:19Z pjb: use a format-control string provided as argument. 2015-07-03T13:07:23Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-07-03T13:07:25Z jackdaniel: oh, thanks 2015-07-03T13:08:11Z pjb: (format nil "~A ~?~%" (get-universal-time) "error: ~A ~A" '("Example." 42)) --> "3644917682 error: Example. 42" 2015-07-03T13:13:38Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:14:09Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T13:15:15Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-03T13:15:28Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:15:55Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:18:37Z NhanH quit 2015-07-03T13:18:51Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:19:16Z HamdiKalkan joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:21:27Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:22:03Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:25:05Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:27:47Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:28:53Z kons quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T13:31:01Z HamdiKalkan quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-03T13:33:08Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T13:35:34Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:35:43Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:40:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:42:07Z flip214: we should have a lisp bot here that evaluates such expressions 2015-07-03T13:42:21Z protist joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:42:38Z jackdaniel: ,eval nil 2015-07-03T13:42:40Z jackdaniel: hm 2015-07-03T13:43:38Z Vityok: flip214: how do you make sure that somebody will not feed it with suicidal code? 2015-07-03T13:43:47Z Vityok: akin to "rm -Rf /" or similar 2015-07-03T13:44:36Z pjb: flip214: no need. Just type C-x C-e 2015-07-03T13:44:36Z flip214: Vityok: yeah, that's the question, right? well, a chroot and similar things can help a lot ... and perhaps being limited to 200 characters, too 2015-07-03T13:44:41Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:44:56Z pjb: flip214: of course, bind C-x C-e to slime-eval-last-expression in erc buffers. 2015-07-03T13:44:59Z flip214: pjb: sorry, doesn't work in my IRC client. 2015-07-03T13:45:13Z pjb: that's your problem for choosing bad irc clients. 2015-07-03T13:45:30Z flip214: and even if it did, it's about showing the output *here*, not for me locally. Locally I'll just use ",eb". 2015-07-03T13:45:32Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:45:59Z pjb: - I want a million dollars. - ok, do this. - I don't want to do this, I want to do that. Do I get my million dollars? 2015-07-03T13:46:16Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:46:51Z flip214: - I want a million. - ok, here you are. - I didn't want dinars, I wanted dollars - what, isn't that good enough? 2015-07-03T13:46:53Z techiewickie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T13:47:18Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T13:47:38Z jackdaniel: we have to wait for cleavir i suppose and use global environment which will prevent malicious usages :) 2015-07-03T13:48:01Z Shinmera: Even with FCGE you can just start a bunch of calculation intensive infinite loops to bog the host down. 2015-07-03T13:48:11Z Shinmera: Whatever you do, eval bots are stupid idea. 2015-07-03T13:48:38Z jackdaniel: I'd disagree, fact you can break a tool doesn't mean mere existance of it is a bad idea 2015-07-03T13:48:44Z oleo: a testing channel with eval bots would be ok tho..... 2015-07-03T13:48:50Z oleo: not here! 2015-07-03T13:48:51Z pjb: Furthermore, somebody already implemented one. Just locate it, clone the git repo, and have a server run it (in its own channel). 2015-07-03T13:49:08Z oleo: it has to be secured too ofc..... 2015-07-03T13:49:09Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: It is when you expose it to the internet 2015-07-03T13:49:12Z jackdaniel: on lisp-pl there is ood, which does eval for privigiled users (in sandbox) 2015-07-03T13:49:18Z oleo: ah 2015-07-03T13:49:23Z jackdaniel: who° :D 2015-07-03T13:49:46Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-03T13:49:56Z jackdaniel: it's based on informatigo as far as I recall 2015-07-03T13:50:08Z jackdaniel: he's° 2015-07-03T13:50:45Z jackdaniel: and regarding infinite loops, it has timeout for any arbitrary expression 2015-07-03T13:51:29Z Shinmera: Doesn't mean you can't easily bog down the host 2015-07-03T13:51:59Z pjb: Doesn't mean you can't easily bog down ANY host. 2015-07-03T13:52:12Z jackdaniel: doesn't mean you can do it easily either 2015-07-03T13:52:30Z jackdaniel: this discussion leads nowhere, /me hides in his lamp 2015-07-03T13:53:59Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-03T13:54:09Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:54:13Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:54:20Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T13:54:39Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T13:55:23Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T13:55:52Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:56:42Z tkd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-03T13:57:50Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:57:58Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T13:59:22Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:02:02Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:03:20Z futpib_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:03:24Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-03T14:05:21Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T14:06:50Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T14:08:04Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T14:08:33Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:09:33Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:11:38Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:12:39Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T14:13:22Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T14:13:58Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T14:15:16Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:15:20Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-03T14:15:29Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T14:17:32Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:18:06Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:20:11Z balle quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-03T14:23:45Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:23:48Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T14:24:15Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-03T14:24:16Z futpib_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T14:24:39Z futpib_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:28:00Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T14:29:02Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-03T14:29:15Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:32:01Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T14:33:15Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:34:06Z jewel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T14:36:23Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-03T14:39:05Z futpib_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T14:39:27Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:43:45Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-03T14:46:38Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T14:46:46Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:46:53Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:47:44Z cojy quit 2015-07-03T14:47:45Z backupthrick_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T14:47:56Z cojy joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:49:38Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T14:50:52Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:53:01Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-03T14:53:23Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-03T15:00:12Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T15:00:24Z victor_lowther quit 2015-07-03T15:00:35Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-07-03T15:00:41Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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The operator is actually "derived work", and this is not a technical question. You could easily create a derived work without linking directly (eg. just by using a HTTP or IRC protocol to remotely connect and make use of the software). 2015-07-03T16:56:47Z pjb: Linking in one way or another can always circumvented, and the tribunal never used those technical arguments to determine, within the Copyright Law, what was derived work. 2015-07-03T16:57:29Z gz quit (Quit: ) 2015-07-03T16:57:30Z gz quit 2015-07-03T16:57:38Z gz joined #lisp 2015-07-03T16:57:44Z pjb: Also, notice that the mere translation of the work is definitely considered derived work (eg. take a novel, translate it from English to French, blam! derived work, you can distribute it only as the copyright owner permits and under the conditions he will. 2015-07-03T16:58:06Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T16:58:26Z pjb: Take a program written in lisp, rewrite it in C or Ruby, and blam! no linking involved, just a translation, and you've got a derived work that essentially belongs to the original copyright owner. 2015-07-03T16:58:46Z jackdaniel: pjb: I've got nothing against agpl, what I've found amusing is his arrogance by telling author, that he *should* change license he took, because he is obviously *wrong* and doesn't know what he *really* wants 2015-07-03T16:58:48Z alms_clozure quit 2015-07-03T16:58:54Z stevegt_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-03T16:58:57Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-07-03T16:59:22Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:00:08Z pjb: Unfortunately, what he says is much more often true of those who use non GPL licenses. AICS, people more often use BSD or MIT automatically without thinking about the consequences. 2015-07-03T17:00:38Z jackdaniel: aics? 2015-07-03T17:00:45Z jackdaniel: as I can see? 2015-07-03T17:01:11Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T17:01:28Z pjb: yes. 2015-07-03T17:01:43Z jackdaniel: thanks, urbandictionary decided to not help me this time :p 2015-07-03T17:01:53Z jackdaniel: s/to not/not to/ 2015-07-03T17:03:17Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:03:56Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T17:06:06Z enedil joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:06:18Z enedil greets 2015-07-03T17:06:28Z jackdaniel: enedil: hi o/ 2015-07-03T17:07:35Z enedil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T17:12:38Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-03T17:15:11Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T17:15:48Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-03T17:16:35Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:18:54Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:19:50Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:23:30Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T17:23:46Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-03T17:24:03Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:25:00Z pie_: why isnt lisp named lithp? 2015-07-03T17:25:18Z pjb: pie_: because McCarthy wasn't a queer. 2015-07-03T17:26:32Z jackdaniel: lisph or die 2015-07-03T17:26:42Z pie_: pronounced lisf? 2015-07-03T17:26:50Z pie_: ghoti 2015-07-03T17:27:39Z jackdaniel: I imagine how dissapointed must be lisping people when they search yt for their kind and see some IT tutorials :D 2015-07-03T17:28:13Z shortsightedsid joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:28:51Z pjb: jackdaniel: Now, how many years have you been studing English before you knew that "lisp" wasn't a programming language? 2015-07-03T17:29:07Z shortsightedsid: is there a function in CCL that returns the fasl extension used on that platform? 2015-07-03T17:29:22Z pjb: For me, that must have been more than 25 years! And I knew about lisp for about 22 then! 2015-07-03T17:29:33Z shortsightedsid: http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter3.1.html documents the list but I was hoping there's a function I can use 2015-07-03T17:30:47Z s00pcan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T17:31:11Z pjb: (ccl::backend-target-fasl-pathname target-backend) 2015-07-03T17:31:40Z pjb: (ccl::backend-target-fasl-pathname ccl::*target-backend*) --> #P".lx64fsl" 2015-07-03T17:31:41Z jackdaniel: pjb: to be honest I know that lisp is programming language for 6 years, while that it is speaking problem for 16 2015-07-03T17:31:52Z shortsightedsid: Ah! Thanks... 2015-07-03T17:31:59Z pjb: jackdaniel: So you're a latecomer :-) 2015-07-03T17:32:23Z EnergyCoffee quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-07-03T17:32:27Z jackdaniel: obviously 2015-07-03T17:33:36Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:33:59Z pjb: Even in French (my native language), I kept writing some words strangely for quite a few years because of programming. In LSE, loops are written POUR I<-1 JUSQUA 2 … so I used to write jusqua instead of jusqu'à :-) 2015-07-03T17:34:01Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:34:02Z EnergyCoffee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-03T17:34:42Z remi`bd: pjb: where are you lisping from? 2015-07-03T17:34:54Z pjb: Currently from Issy Les Moulineaux, near Paris. 2015-07-03T17:35:14Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:35:15Z remi`bd: I’m in Clermont-Ferrand 2015-07-03T17:35:15Z EnergyCoffee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-03T17:35:24Z pjb: shortsightedsid: it was easily found by typing M-. on compile-file ;-) 2015-07-03T17:35:34Z RussT2 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:36:30Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:36:31Z EnergyCoffee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-03T17:37:45Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:37:46Z EnergyCoffee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-03T17:38:51Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-03T17:39:01Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:39:02Z EnergyCoffee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-03T17:39:14Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:40:00Z RussT1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T17:40:16Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:40:17Z EnergyCoffee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-03T17:40:26Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:41:29Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:41:30Z EnergyCoffee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-03T17:41:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T17:42:46Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:42:47Z EnergyCoffee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-03T17:44:00Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:44:01Z EnergyCoffee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-03T17:45:16Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:45:16Z EnergyCoffee quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-03T17:46:00Z PuercoPop: is there some that inhibits interactive restarts from popping up? 2015-07-03T17:46:33Z EnergyCoffee joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:48:17Z Octophore joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:49:07Z shortsightedsid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T17:49:58Z bishopj`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T17:50:37Z jackdaniel: handler-bind which will intercept condition 2015-07-03T17:51:23Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-03T17:51:26Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:51:35Z bishopj`` joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:51:46Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:52:21Z PuercoPop: I'm trying to figure out why I get a restart that queries *query-io* on slime but not when on StumpWM. 2015-07-03T17:52:39Z PuercoPop: so there may be a 'global' handler-bind? 2015-07-03T17:53:08Z Bike: are you sure it doesn't? stumpwm might bind query io to /dev/null or something. 2015-07-03T17:53:10Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:53:11Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:53:35Z Bike: actually, iirc stumpwm has a pretty top-level error handler that doesn't offer restarts. 2015-07-03T17:53:53Z cosmicexplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T17:56:23Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T17:56:23Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-03T17:56:23Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:00:06Z PuercoPop: Bike: I get Caught 'error opening ...' at the top level. Please report this. The error I get is precisely the one I want to handle (Wrong battery name) 2015-07-03T18:00:44Z Bike: have you asked #stumpwm? 2015-07-03T18:02:58Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:04:11Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-03T18:04:19Z PuercoPop: No, will do. 2015-07-03T18:06:45Z Octophore quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:07:32Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:07:55Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T18:09:09Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-03T18:09:55Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:10:08Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:11:29Z cosmicexplorer joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:13:05Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:16:31Z Brozo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T18:17:36Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:17:37Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:17:42Z skeuomorf joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:17:48Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:18:20Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:21:05Z c74d3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T18:21:32Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:22:02Z bishopj`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T18:22:45Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:23:07Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:23:12Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:24:24Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:24:28Z cosmicexplorer quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.7)) 2015-07-03T18:24:36Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:24:39Z mdln- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T18:25:47Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:25:49Z ziocroc quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-03T18:25:58Z OxMLR joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:26:15Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:28:00Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:28:51Z mach joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:28:57Z Jaskologist_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:31:36Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:31:38Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:32:36Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:33:50Z jasom joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:35:08Z adjl left #lisp 2015-07-03T18:35:27Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:35:45Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:38:16Z protist quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-03T18:41:56Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:43:36Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:43:45Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:45:19Z phoe6 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:47:23Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:50:19Z klltkr joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:51:40Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:52:38Z Octophore joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:54:16Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:55:23Z RussT2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:57:41Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T18:58:19Z tkd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-03T18:58:48Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:01:00Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T19:01:22Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:02:32Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:03:24Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T19:03:31Z ggole quit 2015-07-03T19:04:00Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:04:04Z kdas_ is now known as kushal 2015-07-03T19:04:13Z Octophore quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T19:04:14Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2015-07-03T19:04:14Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:05:20Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:08:46Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:12:10Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:12:34Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-03T19:15:23Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T19:19:41Z C6248 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-03T19:22:58Z BRFPocock quit (Quit: BRFPocock) 2015-07-03T19:25:57Z tharu joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:28:10Z lala joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:29:08Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T19:31:58Z tharu quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-03T19:33:58Z tyrannozarus_001 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:37:58Z dnm joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:39:19Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T19:42:18Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:44:08Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:44:10Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-03T19:44:59Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T19:46:30Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-03T19:52:53Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T19:56:57Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T19:57:20Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:03:14Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T20:03:48Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:04:25Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:11:21Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:11:21Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-07-03T20:11:21Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:12:01Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-03T20:15:41Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T20:16:30Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-03T20:16:37Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:17:07Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T20:19:04Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:21:42Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:23:41Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-03T20:24:15Z badkins__ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:24:55Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-03T20:25:57Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:27:13Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T20:27:57Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:28:10Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T20:29:04Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-03T20:29:27Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:29:37Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T20:30:37Z badkins__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T20:32:40Z Utop_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:33:33Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-03T20:33:33Z Utop_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T20:33:51Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:35:32Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:36:10Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-03T20:38:30Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:38:45Z wemeetagain quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-03T20:40:56Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-07-03T20:44:25Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T20:49:41Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:49:44Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-03T20:49:59Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T20:54:44Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T20:58:27Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T20:59:44Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:00:46Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T21:00:52Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-03T21:00:59Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:01:19Z sz0 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-03T21:02:01Z mc40 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T21:03:23Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:08:06Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:08:50Z aeth: Lisp's motto is apparently "Made with secret alien technology." Maybe there should be secret-alien- package names instead of just so many cl- 2015-07-03T21:08:58Z aeth: Unless that's trademarked even though the logo is public domain? 2015-07-03T21:09:27Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T21:09:33Z flash- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T21:09:36Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:10:26Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-03T21:10:48Z hiroakip quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T21:11:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T21:12:45Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:13:16Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T21:13:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth, If people did that it wouldn't be a secret. 2015-07-03T21:16:12Z fantomik joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:16:55Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T21:18:41Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:23:19Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T21:23:45Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:29:32Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T21:31:36Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-03T21:32:42Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:34:31Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T21:35:30Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:36:22Z mdln joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:37:35Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T21:37:53Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:41:37Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-03T21:44:34Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T21:47:18Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:47:29Z pavelpenev quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-07-03T21:47:29Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-03T21:48:07Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:49:09Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-03T21:49:47Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:51:02Z remi`bd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T21:54:28Z troydm quit (Quit: What is hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2015-07-03T21:55:13Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:56:26Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:57:47Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-03T21:59:58Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:02:54Z ralt joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:03:26Z ralt: hi 2015-07-03T22:03:50Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:03:51Z oleo: hello 2015-07-03T22:04:17Z ralt: I have a type error I don't understand 2015-07-03T22:04:30Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T22:04:40Z ralt: I'm passing a (vector (unsigned-byte 8)), and I get a type error saying "not a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*))" 2015-07-03T22:05:04Z agdistis joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:05:14Z ralt: I don't see why it's not working... I thought vector was a subtype of simple-array 2015-07-03T22:05:57Z tyrannozarus_001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-03T22:06:28Z Shinmera: No 2015-07-03T22:06:50Z Shinmera: http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/ 2015-07-03T22:06:57Z c74d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:07:40Z ralt: ah, subtype of simple-vector, which simple-array is also. 2015-07-03T22:07:42Z ralt: damn. 2015-07-03T22:07:45Z ralt: well, thanks 2015-07-03T22:09:11Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-03T22:13:52Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-03T22:17:43Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:19:00Z larocca quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:19:13Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:19:45Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:20:27Z larocca joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:21:17Z ziocroc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T22:23:06Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T22:23:40Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:24:22Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:25:14Z fantomik quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-03T22:25:32Z phoe6 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-03T22:26:49Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:27:55Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:30:54Z eudoxia quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:35:17Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:35:58Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:38:37Z xirie joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:38:44Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-03T22:39:03Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:39:09Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T22:39:23Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:39:28Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:39:58Z badkins_ quit 2015-07-03T22:40:40Z zematis joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:42:44Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:44:06Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-03T22:44:15Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-03T22:46:18Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-03T22:46:30Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:48:46Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:50:38Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-03T22:54:32Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-03T22:57:39Z xirie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-03T22:58:30Z kristof: Can anyone think of a situation where this in this list ((expr) a b c), expr should be evaluated, but doesn't have to be a function? 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I've inlined integer addition and < 2015-07-04T02:02:03Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:02:09Z drmeister: Everything is working! 2015-07-04T02:02:17Z beach: Great. 2015-07-04T02:02:29Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:02:37Z nyef: drmeister: Congratulations. 2015-07-04T02:02:40Z drmeister: The llvm intrinsic for addition with overflow detection is just fine. 2015-07-04T02:02:48Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:02:51Z beach: Yeah, it looks that way. 2015-07-04T02:02:59Z beach: Generates the optimal code. 2015-07-04T02:03:10Z drmeister: Yes yes! 2015-07-04T02:03:14Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T02:03:32Z drmeister: I'm looking for a good integer algorithm to kick the tires of all this inlining. 2015-07-04T02:03:51Z Bike: algorithm for what now? 2015-07-04T02:03:59Z nyef: Go for a small-scale FIB? 2015-07-04T02:04:05Z drmeister: Sieve of Eratosthenes? 2015-07-04T02:04:12Z drmeister: I'm just reading about it. 2015-07-04T02:04:14Z nyef: That'd've been my second choice, yes. 2015-07-04T02:04:16Z Bike: oh, just something to test with? 2015-07-04T02:04:20Z drmeister: What's small-scale FIB? 2015-07-04T02:04:27Z nyef: Fibonacci sequence. 2015-07-04T02:04:55Z drmeister: nyef: That was my first choice - how would you formulate it? 2015-07-04T02:05:08Z Bike: just the dumb exponential blowup way? 2015-07-04T02:05:12Z nyef: Any old way? 2015-07-04T02:05:36Z drmeister: Like what though? Time how long it takes to calculate the N'th number in the sequence M times? 2015-07-04T02:06:01Z Bike: well, sure. you just want to profile some increase from the inlining, right? 2015-07-04T02:06:56Z Bike: (defun fib (n) (cond ((zerop n) 0) ((= n 1) 1) (t (+ (fib (- n 2)) (fib (- n 1)))))), run it a bunch of times on high n, you'll get some disparate times 2015-07-04T02:07:11Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:07:27Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-04T02:07:33Z drmeister: I need to translate that into an iterative, imperative version. 2015-07-04T02:07:36Z beach: It should remain a fixnum though. 2015-07-04T02:07:36Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:07:56Z sjl quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-04T02:08:04Z drmeister: Yes, it needs to remain a fixnum 2015-07-04T02:08:20Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:08:30Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-04T02:08:33Z Bike: (defun fib (n) (loop for a = 0 then b for b = 1 then (+ a b) repeat n finally (return a))), or something 2015-07-04T02:08:47Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T02:08:55Z myrk2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T02:08:55Z Bike: hm, nope. 2015-07-04T02:09:04Z axion quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T02:09:07Z larocca quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-04T02:09:38Z j0ni quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T02:10:07Z Bike: wow that's really wrong actually, 'm out of it. 2015-07-04T02:10:13Z larocca joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:10:14Z j0ni joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:10:43Z drmeister: It's ok, I kind of know what I'm looking for. 2015-07-04T02:11:21Z dlowe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-04T02:11:57Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:12:50Z dlowe joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:14:00Z Bike: oh, it wasn't that wrong, you just need to have a parallel set. 2015-07-04T02:14:16Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:18:19Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:18:31Z OxMLR quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T02:18:38Z mfranzwa quit (Quit: mfranzwa) 2015-07-04T02:20:10Z myrk2 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:23:05Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:23:36Z drmeister: I have to go to dinner - but here's what I've got right now. 2015-07-04T02:23:38Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/UkbQevfH/ 2015-07-04T02:24:02Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/fzYdL2QB/mir.pdf 2015-07-04T02:24:26Z Bike: you use aux, like, infinitely times more often than anything i've seen 2015-07-04T02:24:50Z drmeister: I was going to highlight the "fast-path" to demonstrate that there are no funcall's in it - but I need to go to dinner. 2015-07-04T02:25:20Z not_tfl quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-04T02:25:21Z Bike: it's amazing how fast these things get impossible to read 2015-07-04T02:25:33Z drmeister: beach: You've done a tremendous job here! 2015-07-04T02:25:33Z beach: You got that right. 2015-07-04T02:25:36Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:25:40Z beach: drmeister: Oh, thank you! 2015-07-04T02:25:50Z drmeister: Fiddle faddle, this stuff is poetry! 2015-07-04T02:26:09Z Bike: well, it's kind of pretty, but on the other hand it took me like two minutes to find the loop 2015-07-04T02:26:21Z beach: Bike: It works OK for very small examples. 2015-07-04T02:26:35Z Bike: right, by "fast" i meant like, as you get it more complicated. 2015-07-04T02:26:36Z beach: Bike: And it is way better than no graphic representation at all. 2015-07-04T02:26:45Z wobh: Whatever it is, it sounds more exciting than what I've been working on. 2015-07-04T02:26:47Z beach: Yeah, just agreeing with you. 2015-07-04T02:26:56Z Bike: reading textual IR sucks, that's for sure 2015-07-04T02:27:14Z wobh: https://github.com/wobh/cl-cookbook 2015-07-04T02:27:30Z wobh: http://wobh.github.io/cl-cookbook/ 2015-07-04T02:27:31Z beach: Bike: I can imagine that. I decided early on I didn't particularly want to do that. 2015-07-04T02:28:08Z wobh: pjb: thank you for suggesting reposurgeon. 2015-07-04T02:28:37Z wobh: It took a lot more setup than it should have, but once it worked, it worked. 2015-07-04T02:28:41Z OxMLR joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:28:49Z Bike: okay, i definitely found one loop with no funcalls in it! 2015-07-04T02:28:52Z beach: wobh: Great! 2015-07-04T02:29:05Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:29:10Z wobh: First issue, remove references to sourceforge. 2015-07-04T02:30:21Z Bike: i wonder, do you have graph traversal stuff? you could write something to highlight all loops pretty easily, i would think 2015-07-04T02:30:53Z wobh: Anyway, there's probably a bunch of other worthy projects to move. 2015-07-04T02:31:22Z beach: Bike: I definitely have graph-traversal code. But it doesn't involve generating printed representation. 2015-07-04T02:31:40Z Bike: well yeah, by "highlighting" i was thinking graphically as well. 2015-07-04T02:32:40Z beach: Yes, I understand. 2015-07-04T02:33:29Z beach: Probably not trivial to accomplish. 2015-07-04T02:34:25Z beach: Oh, I guess I could provide a second top-level printing function. It would search for loops first and then print those highlighted. 2015-07-04T02:34:34Z Bike: it could be kind of nice for microoptimization stuff, maybe 2015-07-04T02:34:39Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-04T02:34:49Z beach: I do have loop-detection code somewhere. 2015-07-04T02:35:35Z axion joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:36:03Z beach: A back arc in a loop is an arc from a node N to a node M such that M dominates N. 2015-07-04T02:36:05Z cluck quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T02:36:18Z beach: ... or something like that. 2015-07-04T02:38:11Z nyef: I can't help but feel that there's something wrong with that definition, but I can't remember enough about the dominance relation to puzzle out what. Or maybe there's nothing wrong with it, and my fuzzy recall of the definition of dominance is at fault. 2015-07-04T02:39:06Z beach: Dominance has a straightforward definition. 2015-07-04T02:39:14Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T02:39:27Z beach: A dominates B if every path from the start node to B goes through A. 2015-07-04T02:39:45Z beach: Make that "if and only if". 2015-07-04T02:40:26Z nyef: Yes, that's what I thought I rememebered. 2015-07-04T02:41:16Z nyef: Which makes it fairly easy to have a loop that doesn't involve an arc from N to M where M dominates N, because you could have the control-flow split such that M is only on one of hte paths to N. 2015-07-04T02:41:39Z beach: But, yeah, as I recall, there are structures that aren't considered loops by that definition, and that are sometimes convenient to consider as being loops. 2015-07-04T02:42:24Z beach: I think you are right. That definition of loop is fairly restricted. 2015-07-04T02:42:32Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-04T02:42:35Z j4cknewt joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:42:51Z beach: As I recall, I use a different one: A strongly connected component of the graph. 2015-07-04T02:43:05Z kristof: I wasn't aware of how good Lisp in Small Pieces is 2015-07-04T02:43:41Z kristof: This is a very satisfying read :) 2015-07-04T02:43:49Z nyef: kristof: Yeah, LiSP, for all that it's about Scheme rather than Common Lisp, is awesome. 2015-07-04T02:44:23Z kristof: They talk a lot about Common Lisp so no loss there 2015-07-04T02:45:23Z wobh: I was pretty excited when I first heard about Lisp in Small Pieces, but then I went looking for it. Stickershock knocked whatever the price was out of memory. 2015-07-04T02:45:57Z kristof: 130 bones 2015-07-04T02:46:24Z kristof: Oh, it's going for about 80USD now 2015-07-04T02:47:35Z theos: nobody is a pirate here? :P 2015-07-04T02:48:04Z nyef: For that book? Absolutely not! 2015-07-04T02:48:23Z wobh: Hrm. Amazon has it for $100, CBP for $120 2015-07-04T02:49:35Z beach: Bike: It is easy to get sucked into sub-projects for improving the graphical output. One thing I have considered would be an interactive program for exploring the graph, allowing the user to hide parts, or abstract away a bunch of nodes into a single one, etc. 2015-07-04T02:49:38Z gendl_ left #lisp 2015-07-04T02:49:38Z theos: hmm it was written in some other language and someone translated it to english 2015-07-04T02:50:11Z beach: theos: It was written in French, and the translator is so good that the English version is much better than the original. 2015-07-04T02:50:41Z theos: beach its ms kathleen 2015-07-04T02:50:51Z wobh: I was more broke when I first went looking. 2015-07-04T02:50:55Z nyef: Heh. Sub-projects for improving graphical output, huh? Right now my two active projects are NQ-CLIM and trying to get the video card in one of my computers running as a Linux framebuffer. (-: 2015-07-04T02:51:00Z beach: theos: Ms Callaway. 2015-07-04T02:51:53Z beach: theos: She is a brilliant writer too. 2015-07-04T02:51:55Z theos: Ms Kathleen Callaway. she is also french! 2015-07-04T02:52:04Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T02:52:19Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:52:24Z beach: theos: Yes, she has been French for 3 months or so. She is also American. 2015-07-04T02:52:37Z theos: oh 2015-07-04T02:53:20Z beach: I am going to her naturalization ceremony this coming Monday. 2015-07-04T02:54:00Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:54:53Z beach: nyef: It takes iron will to resist getting sucked into such a sub-project. :) 2015-07-04T02:55:16Z nyef: An iron will, or possibly a good project plan. 2015-07-04T02:55:29Z beach: Sure, yeah. 2015-07-04T02:55:37Z theos: beach thats awesome! :D 2015-07-04T02:55:42Z beach: theos: Kathleen Callaway is my wife. 2015-07-04T02:56:03Z theos: beach are you serious? 2015-07-04T02:56:05Z beach: theos: Or, as I usually say, my (admittedly small) family. 2015-07-04T02:56:09Z nyef: And *that's* one of the reasons why we don't pirate that book. d-: 2015-07-04T02:56:17Z beach: heh! 2015-07-04T02:56:22Z theos: this is a very small world 2015-07-04T02:56:58Z theos deletes all the copies of said book quickly 2015-07-04T02:57:19Z beach: nyef: No skin off her nose. She was paid a flat fee. 2015-07-04T02:57:28Z theos: beach so are you Mr Callaway? 2015-07-04T02:57:41Z beach: theos: No. She kept her maiden name. 2015-07-04T02:57:44Z drmeister: I still have some two-arg-- funcalls in there - I haven't inlined that function yet. 2015-07-04T02:58:11Z freston joined #lisp 2015-07-04T02:58:18Z theos: beach now i have to read that book! 2015-07-04T02:58:22Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T02:58:25Z beach: theos: You do, yes. 2015-07-04T02:59:02Z drmeister: I need to do this whole set + - < <= >= > = right away. 2015-07-04T02:59:11Z beach should ask Christian Queinnec for a percentage of his royalties. 2015-07-04T02:59:43Z kristof: woah 2015-07-04T02:59:52Z beach: drmeister: I think Bike said that there was a loop with no funcalls in it. 2015-07-04T03:00:01Z wobh: beach: That's a heck of a reveal. Well played. 2015-07-04T03:00:07Z kristof: I'm reading a book that beach's wife translated. _. 2015-07-04T03:00:22Z beach: wobh: It is common knowledge here. 2015-07-04T03:00:33Z drmeister: There may be - but I see some missed opportunities that will be corrected when I inline subtraction. 2015-07-04T03:00:47Z beach: wobh: You bring your copy to the next ELS, and she will sign it for you. 2015-07-04T03:00:55Z drmeister: LiSP is what set me down this road. 2015-07-04T03:01:08Z theos: wobh wait till beach's identity is revealed in future episodes 2015-07-04T03:01:28Z wobh: Ha! When I'm wealthy enough to do so, gladly! 2015-07-04T03:01:58Z beach: Bah, you sign up for grad school and have a professor pay your way. 2015-07-04T03:02:05Z beach: It's a job. 2015-07-04T03:02:38Z wobh: That's ... not how it works, ... here, anyway. 2015-07-04T03:02:49Z beach: wobh: Where is "here"? 2015-07-04T03:02:53Z theos 's profs couldnt make their own ends meet... 2015-07-04T03:03:21Z wobh: Apparently I live in some proximity to theos. 2015-07-04T03:03:39Z beach: and where is that? 2015-07-04T03:03:44Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-04T03:03:51Z wobh: For me, in the western US. 2015-07-04T03:03:57Z beach: wobh: I went to Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. That's how it worked there. 2015-07-04T03:04:29Z beach: Maybe times have changed. 2015-07-04T03:04:51Z theos: i live in India. where the principle/dean confiscates your scholarship. 2015-07-04T03:05:03Z wobh: I'm not confident I could pass the GRE's. 2015-07-04T03:05:18Z beach: theos: Wow! :( 2015-07-04T03:05:35Z dnm joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:06:15Z wobh: I "helped" a friend study for those, once. I was good enough to hold open a book for her and that was it. 2015-07-04T03:06:28Z beach: drmeister: I need to figure out how it can be that Cleavir is expanding multiple times, even though I didn't see it when I tried the first example by stassats. 2015-07-04T03:06:49Z freston quit (Quit: freston) 2015-07-04T03:09:00Z drmeister: beach: No problem - it is completely reproducible in cclasp. I confess that I don't have the root cause but it has something to do with that :AROUND method of CONVERT. 2015-07-04T03:09:30Z wobh: and scholarship confiscation happens here too, but it's called "fees". 2015-07-04T03:09:39Z drmeister: It isn't a recursive call to EVAL calling CONVERT calling EVAL and so on. 2015-07-04T03:09:46Z beach: drmeister: That much I understood. I am just puzzled that I didn't see it. 2015-07-04T03:10:09Z beach: I will investigate, of course. 2015-07-04T03:10:22Z drmeister: I'd be happy to work with you and run any tests that you want to run on cclasp to diagnose what is going on. 2015-07-04T03:10:37Z beach: drmeister: I'll keep that in mind. Thanks. 2015-07-04T03:11:06Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T03:11:16Z wobh: Oh, and just earlier this year, there was a graduate student strike! 2015-07-04T03:11:17Z freston joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:11:30Z drmeister: stassats will be up in about 10 hours - he tracked it down as far as he did pretty quickly. The guy is an amazing debugger. 2015-07-04T03:11:38Z bgs100 quit (Quit: brb) 2015-07-04T03:11:45Z beach: yeah. 2015-07-04T03:11:56Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:12:38Z drmeister: You saw the example that he came up with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (progn (progn (progn (progn (progn (foo))))))) - genius. 2015-07-04T03:12:58Z beach: I will try that one here. 2015-07-04T03:13:05Z beach: ... when I am a bit more awake. 2015-07-04T03:13:38Z drmeister: No problem. I have plenty of inlining to work on. 2015-07-04T03:13:48Z beach: Good. 2015-07-04T03:14:51Z drmeister: Once you implement the type inference and NIL/T removal optimization I think this code will run as fast as code written in C. 2015-07-04T03:14:56Z byroniczero joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:15:04Z drmeister: No hurry. 2015-07-04T03:15:20Z beach: Let's hope you are right. 2015-07-04T03:16:14Z drmeister: The LLVM-IR looks like LLVM-IR that clang generates - Clasp will be speaking LLVM-IR with no Common Lisp accent. 2015-07-04T03:16:47Z beach: I admit it is looking good so far. 2015-07-04T03:16:48Z drmeister: Once it is indistinguishable from LLVM-IR generated by Clang - it can't be anything but. 2015-07-04T03:18:25Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T03:18:42Z wobh: http://sourceforge.net/directory/os%3Amac/freshness%3Arecently-updated/?q=%22Common+Lisp%22 2015-07-04T03:18:43Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:18:46Z byroniczero quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-04T03:20:22Z byroniczero joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:20:33Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T03:23:07Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-04T03:23:34Z xirie joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:23:47Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:24:14Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:24:28Z Jirachier quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T03:27:40Z Clarice joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:28:00Z xirie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-04T03:28:24Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T03:29:21Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-04T03:30:20Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T03:30:43Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:33:33Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T03:34:59Z OxMLR quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T03:35:00Z nalik891 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T03:38:09Z beach: drmeister: I think I fixed the calls to CONTEXT. Thanks for finding that. Again, you are ahead of me, so I haven't executed that code yet here. 2015-07-04T03:39:52Z drmeister: You are welcome; to give credit where credit is due - stassats tracked it down. 2015-07-04T03:40:26Z beach: That too? Great! 2015-07-04T03:40:50Z nyef: stassats is amazing. 2015-07-04T03:42:16Z beach: drmeister: Now that you and stassats have debugged that code, I should start using it in SICL. :) 2015-07-04T03:42:54Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:43:15Z drmeister: Oh, CONTEXT - sorry - I read CONVERT. 2015-07-04T03:43:41Z drmeister: I found the CONTEXT one but that fell into my lap 2015-07-04T03:43:42Z beach: Aha, so that's entirely yours. 2015-07-04T03:44:15Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-04T03:45:36Z drmeister: Yeah, it's no big deal when I do it. I'm just very careful to give credit where credit is due. It's been a crazy day debugging-wise. 2015-07-04T03:46:17Z beach: Yeah, you seem very busy. I can take credit for that I suppose. :) 2015-07-04T03:46:19Z drmeister: And I'm really, really grateful to you for writing this stuff and to people who are helping me out with it. 2015-07-04T03:46:38Z drmeister: Yes, yes you can. 2015-07-04T03:47:50Z theos: havent seen stassats in a while. last time he was pissed about people talking OT 2015-07-04T03:47:52Z drmeister: I am very, very pleased that I had the sense to hitch my wagon to your engine. 2015-07-04T03:48:00Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-04T03:48:36Z nyef: theos: Haven't seen stassats in just over five hours. 2015-07-04T03:49:11Z theos: nyef oh. maybe we have different timezones 2015-07-04T03:49:25Z beach: theos: I think stassats left #lisp because he felt singled out and picked upon by pjb. 2015-07-04T03:49:57Z beach: theos: I may be wrong, but that was my impression. 2015-07-04T03:50:10Z drmeister is just happy to work with great collaborators 2015-07-04T03:50:17Z theos: beach :( thats unfortunate. i think he is a sensitive person. 2015-07-04T03:51:13Z beach: theos: Both pjb and stassats have very strong personality and are both very knowledgeable. 2015-07-04T03:51:26Z nyef: SBCL/arm wouldn't have been usable nearly as soon as it was if it weren't for stassats. 2015-07-04T03:52:18Z beach: drmeister: Again, flattery will get you nowhere. :) I am happy that my stuff is useful to you of course. 2015-07-04T03:53:24Z freston quit (Quit: freston) 2015-07-04T03:54:19Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:54:47Z drmeister: It's not flattery. Anyone can look at the Cleavir code and the Clasp code and see what I've gained from this. I'm happy about that. 2015-07-04T03:55:15Z drmeister: I'm also learning a lot. 2015-07-04T03:55:45Z drmeister: I anticipated that I would get a crash course on compiler design - and I am. 2015-07-04T03:55:54Z beach: Excellent! 2015-07-04T03:56:03Z beach: It this is only the beginning. 2015-07-04T03:57:11Z drmeister: My colleagues think I should approach our Computer Science department about a joint appointment. I was thinking about it. Perhaps I could submit my static analyzer for doing compacting garbage collection on C++ as original research. I'm musing it over. 2015-07-04T03:57:12Z freston joined #lisp 2015-07-04T03:57:46Z beach: "appointment" as in being affiliated with that department? 2015-07-04T03:58:57Z drmeister: I don't know what they would entertain. There is precedent for this. I used to work for Neal Ostlund - he was a Chemistry professor who later in life also became a professor of Computer Science. 2015-07-04T03:59:58Z drmeister: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/hotarticles/cenear/951023/neil.html 2015-07-04T04:00:38Z drmeister: This is his company: http://www.hyper.com 2015-07-04T04:00:44Z freston quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T04:01:07Z drmeister: I worked for him while I was an undergraduate. I'm sure that some of my code is still in Hyperchem. 2015-07-04T04:01:24Z theos: beach i am sure stassats is very knowledgeable. what i have noticed is that everytime i saw him here, he would get angry and quit the channel just because someone said something off-topic. i dont know the person well enough though. 2015-07-04T04:01:37Z beach: drmeister: I suppose whether it is possible depends on the rules that your university applies. 2015-07-04T04:02:28Z theos should go learn about godel machines 2015-07-04T04:02:55Z Bike: this is not a computer formalism, is it. blah 2015-07-04T04:05:21Z agdistis quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T04:05:58Z drmeister: beach: You have a FIXNUM-LESS-INSTRUCTION and a FIXNUM-NOT-GREATER-INSTRUCTION - is that all I need? 2015-07-04T04:06:06Z beach: drmeister: In France, you probably wouldn't stand a chance. They are very attached to formal education here. 2015-07-04T04:06:37Z beach: drmeister: I think that's all you need. 2015-07-04T04:06:41Z drmeister: They may be here as well. I haven't approached them. 2015-07-04T04:06:42Z nyef is very detached from formal education. 2015-07-04T04:08:01Z beach: drmeister: If you can do it, it would probably be good from the point of view of getting grants. 2015-07-04T04:08:04Z drmeister: The only reason to do it would be to get access to computer science graduate students. But twice as many faculty meetings (shudder). 2015-07-04T04:08:45Z beach: drmeister: I think there is still heaps of money to be had in CS. 2015-07-04T04:09:25Z drmeister: It may be good for grants. There is a huge interest here in computational design of materials and "Material Genomics". I'm a pretty rare breed - I'm a maker as well as a designer. 2015-07-04T04:10:25Z drmeister: We are good at building big computers - people want to use them to make better materials. 2015-07-04T04:10:45Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-04T04:11:05Z Bike: so a CS grad would be writing their thesis on compiler optimizations or somefin? 2015-07-04T04:11:06Z drmeister: I've been trying to do this my whole adult life - I should get some support for it. 2015-07-04T04:11:11Z beach: It might work. CS is "swallowing" many other domains now. Simply because computing is everywhere and the CS people have the right training to take advantage of that. 2015-07-04T04:11:40Z Bike: i mean my lab has some CS /under/grads, but that's different 2015-07-04T04:11:41Z beach: Bike: I don't think there is any career prospects in that. 2015-07-04T04:11:57Z freston joined #lisp 2015-07-04T04:12:11Z beach: Bike: I think compiler research is as dead as OS research. 2015-07-04T04:12:23Z beach: I might be wrong of course. 2015-07-04T04:15:05Z beach: drmeister: And I think that's a real danger if you move to CS and take on PhD students. You probably don't have the experience to determine when a PhD subject would be a valuable career path for the student. You could very easily ruin the career of someone without knowing it. 2015-07-04T04:15:29Z Bike: numerical programming, i bet you could do that 2015-07-04T04:16:20Z drmeister: beach: Yes, I'm very aware of that. 2015-07-04T04:17:37Z drmeister: It's a serious business - I don't approach it lightly. 2015-07-04T04:17:46Z beach: Bike: That's a tough domain to get new results in I think. 2015-07-04T04:18:18Z Bike: yes it is. might be some novel things to optimize in chemistry, but then, there's already proteins... 2015-07-04T04:18:19Z beach: drmeister: You could gang up with a colleague in CS. 2015-07-04T04:18:30Z Clarice: The state of compiler research is to let the LLVM guys do their thing. 2015-07-04T04:18:32Z drmeister: Our CS department doesn't have any language people. 2015-07-04T04:18:34Z Clarice is now known as kristof 2015-07-04T04:19:26Z beach: drmeister: That probably reflects what I said; compiler research is dead. 2015-07-04T04:19:32Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-04T04:21:54Z drmeister: beach: I obviously think the herd mentality is wrong on this. 2015-07-04T04:22:30Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T04:22:32Z drmeister: Anyway. 2015-07-04T04:23:32Z kristof: drmeister: What does the cs department at your university think of what you're doing? 2015-07-04T04:23:42Z kristof: Do you get assistance / interest, etc. 2015-07-04T04:24:29Z drmeister: The idea is that I should negate the results of FIXNUM-NOT-GREATER-INSTRUCTION and FIXNUM-LESS-INSTRUCTION and an optimization will take care of it? 2015-07-04T04:24:43Z stevegt_ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T04:24:47Z drmeister: kristof: My cs department doesn't know I exist. 2015-07-04T04:24:59Z beach: drmeister: What is it that you are missing? 2015-07-04T04:25:04Z Bike: do you not have cs undergrads? 2015-07-04T04:25:30Z drmeister: Bike: I had two but I spent a semester trying to help them set up emacs. 2015-07-04T04:25:38Z beach: Heh! 2015-07-04T04:26:08Z nyef: drmeister: Next time, have a puppet configuration for them to use? 2015-07-04T04:26:10Z Bike: hrm. they're not that bad here. got ffi and version control working and such 2015-07-04T04:26:26Z les quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-04T04:26:29Z drmeister: They teach these kids Java in Eclipse and they can't do anything unless you plunk them down into a chair in front of a computer with everything installed and started up. 2015-07-04T04:27:11Z beach: drmeister: Are you missing FIXNUM-GREATER and FIXNUM-NOT-LESS? 2015-07-04T04:27:28Z beach: drmeister: Just interchange the arguments and one of the others will work. 2015-07-04T04:27:29Z cyphase quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-07-04T04:27:35Z Bike: were they like, seniors? people who TA and shit. 2015-07-04T04:27:39Z Bike: well i guess i shouldn't prod 2015-07-04T04:27:42Z drmeister: I don't want to complain - they were sharp kids but we spent a lot of time trying to get them set up. 2015-07-04T04:27:43Z theos moved all departments to OSS while he was teaching. 2015-07-04T04:29:32Z beach: drmeister: Notice that there are more ASTs because they need to respect the evaluation order. 2015-07-04T04:29:34Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-04T04:29:48Z DNoved1 quit (Quit: ()) 2015-07-04T04:29:55Z drmeister: beach: Oh - exchange the arguments. I think my confusion is that there are FIXNUM-< FIXNUM-<= FIXNUM-> FIXNUM->= and just two FIXNUM-LESS-INSTRUCTION and FIXNUM-NOT-GREATER-INSTRUCTION. 2015-07-04T04:30:03Z drmeister: I've got an impedance mismatch. 2015-07-04T04:30:19Z drmeister: Does Cleavir do the argument swapping? 2015-07-04T04:30:26Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-04T04:30:42Z drmeister: Ok. Sorry to be a dunce. 2015-07-04T04:30:44Z alchemis7 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T04:31:02Z nyef: NOT-GREATER is LESS-OR-EQUAL, right? 2015-07-04T04:31:25Z drmeister: nyef: That was my next question. I'm 99.99999% sure it's "yes" 2015-07-04T04:31:25Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-04T04:31:34Z drmeister: Yeeha. 2015-07-04T04:31:45Z drmeister trundles off to write some code 2015-07-04T04:31:47Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T04:33:35Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-04T04:33:43Z beach: drmeister: You should only have to worry about generating the ASTs and implementing the existing instructions. The rest should be taken care of by Cleavir. 2015-07-04T04:34:39Z drmeister: Got it. 2015-07-04T04:35:34Z drmeister: What is the cleavir-primop:fixnum-arithmetic operator for? 2015-07-04T04:36:08Z mdln quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T04:38:00Z drmeister: I'm going to run out of cleavir-primop's soon :-) 2015-07-04T04:38:06Z stevegt_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-04T04:39:23Z nyef: ... The two of you have got me starting to think about writing my own Lisp compiler. And I'm fairly sure that I have a pile of other things that should take priority. 2015-07-04T04:39:33Z drmeister: Nah, I'll be fine with this for a while. I'm looking for "proof of concept" of speedup here. 2015-07-04T04:40:27Z drmeister: I used this recently but it is very apropos. 2015-07-04T04:40:28Z drmeister: https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2829/13394088375_00d70ddaaa_z.jpg 2015-07-04T04:40:59Z drmeister: Darn - I used it on you didn't I? 2015-07-04T04:41:19Z drmeister: And you are one of the five people in North America who hasn't seen the movie. 2015-07-04T04:41:20Z beach: drmeister: I forget what it's for. 2015-07-04T04:41:39Z drmeister: It's a humorous warning. 2015-07-04T04:41:59Z drmeister: beach - have you seen the Lord of the Rings movies? 2015-07-04T04:42:04Z nyef: ... Yes. Yes, you did. And no, I still haven't seen it. 2015-07-04T04:42:11Z beach: drmeister: No, I have not. Sorry. 2015-07-04T04:42:33Z drmeister: Oh my goodness! 2015-07-04T04:42:45Z beach: nyef: I take it you would not be interested in helping out with Cleavir? 2015-07-04T04:43:15Z nyef: ... I don't know. 2015-07-04T04:43:37Z nyef: Right now I think I have my hands full with NQ-CLIM and this Linux thing. 2015-07-04T04:43:45Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-04T04:43:51Z drmeister: nyef: Join us! Become one of us! 2015-07-04T04:43:56Z drmeister starts chanting 2015-07-04T04:44:13Z nyef: drmeister: Get the total system build time down under four hours first! 2015-07-04T04:44:28Z drmeister: Damnit! 2015-07-04T04:44:51Z drmeister: :-) 2015-07-04T04:45:18Z drmeister: Cleavir's really understandable! It's really nice code! 2015-07-04T04:45:34Z beach: Thank you! 2015-07-04T04:45:51Z drmeister dangles imaginary Cleavir code in front of nyef while he kicks his code under the rug. 2015-07-04T04:46:19Z nyef: I think that the worst of the scope creep on the Linux-kernel thing is over, but I may end up helping out with some of the userland stuff as well. 2015-07-04T04:47:13Z beach: "userland stuff"? 2015-07-04T04:47:18Z Guest82228 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T04:47:45Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-04T04:48:33Z nyef: Yeah, MIPS support in some linux distros is a bit iffy. 2015-07-04T04:48:43Z beach: I see. 2015-07-04T04:49:30Z nyef: On the other hand, I think I finally have a stable enough system that I might be able to do some SBCL hacking on it, which was the entire point of this exercise. 2015-07-04T04:50:07Z beach: Great! 2015-07-04T04:50:27Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-04T04:51:49Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-04T04:52:51Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T04:53:06Z stevegt_ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T04:53:13Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:03:19Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:05:59Z zematis joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:08:08Z stevegt_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T05:12:19Z xirie joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:15:47Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T05:16:19Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:16:43Z xirie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T05:17:54Z RussT2 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:18:47Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:20:02Z RussT1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-04T05:25:45Z les quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-04T05:26:11Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:27:55Z wobh: Read about SICL and Cleavir, now exploring metamodular.com. 2015-07-04T05:28:11Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:29:43Z beach: Good! Good! :) 2015-07-04T05:30:03Z dnm joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:31:46Z wobh: If you haven't come across it, already some of Kathy Sierra's work might explain why people would "resist learning" for some things. 2015-07-04T05:32:29Z beach: I'll check it out. Thanks. 2015-07-04T05:32:51Z wobh: http://seriouspony.com/blog/2013/7/24/your-app-makes-me-fat 2015-07-04T05:33:27Z nyef: Ah, right. I remember that bit from her book, "Badass". 2015-07-04T05:33:31Z freston quit (Quit: freston) 2015-07-04T05:33:38Z wobh: Unfortunately, it draws on some psychological studies which might be wrong. 2015-07-04T05:33:53Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:33:56Z PuercoPop: nyef: btw I've seen some info about your clxs proyect but the repo seems to be dead 2015-07-04T05:34:10Z kami: Good morning, #lisp. 2015-07-04T05:34:18Z wobh: (not because the idea isn't sound, but because nearly every study about everything is wrong) 2015-07-04T05:35:10Z nyef: PuercoPop: Yeah... looks like I still haven't gotten around to putting it on github. 2015-07-04T05:36:17Z kami: Xach: did you have time to review this PR? https://github.com/darabi/quicklisp-slime-helper/commit/c9545dafd1ded0cc038fc3ea0b8feed7e053d413 2015-07-04T05:36:25Z PuercoPop: how does it compares to zen? 2015-07-04T05:36:47Z nyef: clxs is massively incomplete. 2015-07-04T05:36:58Z nyef: I have no idea about that other thing. 2015-07-04T05:37:13Z les quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-04T05:38:22Z beach: wobh: Psychology is hard to get right. 2015-07-04T05:38:59Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T05:39:52Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:41:15Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:44:23Z nyef: Ugh. It's almost quarter of two. I need to get some sleep. 2015-07-04T05:44:32Z nyef: G'night all. 2015-07-04T05:44:41Z beach: 'night nyef. 2015-07-04T05:45:44Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:46:21Z agdistis joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:46:57Z agdistis quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T05:47:03Z kami: Good night, nyef. 2015-07-04T05:48:23Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-04T05:48:58Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T05:50:04Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T05:56:44Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-04T06:03:49Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:05:04Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:06:37Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:07:55Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:10:46Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T06:11:46Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T06:12:31Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:15:17Z drmeister: beach: I have some timing data. 2015-07-04T06:15:35Z beach: Yes? 2015-07-04T06:15:37Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/OozCsXZ0/ 2015-07-04T06:16:05Z drmeister: (time (fibn 100000000 78)) on SBCL 47.025 second 2015-07-04T06:16:18Z drmeister: On Clasp with inlining 130 seconds 2015-07-04T06:16:29Z drmeister: In C 1.5 seconds 2015-07-04T06:16:29Z beach: Wow, not bad at all. 2015-07-04T06:16:37Z les quit (Quit: "") 2015-07-04T06:16:47Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:17:03Z beach: Well, you probably didn't set all the optimize flags in SBCL. 2015-07-04T06:17:14Z drmeister: I didn't set any optimize flags in SBCL 2015-07-04T06:17:34Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:17:36Z drmeister: What do you recommend? 2015-07-04T06:17:45Z beach: So it's a bit unfair to compare to C. 2015-07-04T06:18:07Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/sjhDOg55/ 2015-07-04T06:18:30Z tankfeeder joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:18:32Z drmeister: Those don't work. Hang on - 2015-07-04T06:19:09Z beach: You need to check that you don't get a bignum in the end. 2015-07-04T06:20:34Z tankfeeder left #lisp 2015-07-04T06:20:48Z mea-culpa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T06:20:49Z beach: OK, no risk. 2015-07-04T06:21:02Z les quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T06:21:20Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/62alxddY/ 2015-07-04T06:21:25Z beach: On my computer SBCL does it in 5.4 seconds. 2015-07-04T06:21:35Z beach: with no optimization. 2015-07-04T06:22:06Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:22:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/64dLqDVg/ 2015-07-04T06:23:08Z beach: 2.1 seconds with some optimize flags and some declarations. 2015-07-04T06:23:10Z drmeister: Hmmm, I'm still getting 47 seconds. 2015-07-04T06:23:16Z drmeister: What are you using? 2015-07-04T06:23:53Z beach: Also (declare (fixnum reps num)) 2015-07-04T06:23:58Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:24:40Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T06:25:14Z beach: If you do &aux (rnum 0) (p1 0) (p2 0) (z 0) you can also declare those to be fixnums. 2015-07-04T06:25:48Z drmeister: Right, but that's not a fair fight. 2015-07-04T06:26:03Z beach: Then I get 0.87 seconds. 2015-07-04T06:26:08Z beach: Right. 2015-07-04T06:26:19Z beach: I already said that the Clasp number is great. 2015-07-04T06:26:27Z beach: I was thinking of your C comparison. 2015-07-04T06:26:50Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-04T06:27:00Z drmeister: Right - here is the code for that: 2015-07-04T06:27:02Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/XBTwmTkl/ 2015-07-04T06:27:27Z beach: How does the Clasp timing compare to bclasp? 2015-07-04T06:29:44Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:30:40Z drmeister: I have to dial the reps way down. 2015-07-04T06:30:43Z drmeister: Ho boy 2015-07-04T06:30:58Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T06:31:02Z dnm_ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:31:28Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-04T06:32:20Z drmeister: Hang on - checking numbers - t 2015-07-04T06:32:44Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:33:24Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T06:34:08Z drmeister: About 118x faster 2015-07-04T06:34:16Z beach: Heh! 2015-07-04T06:34:20Z beach: Nice! 2015-07-04T06:34:23Z Shinmera: Now we're cooking. 2015-07-04T06:34:41Z les quit (Quit: "") 2015-07-04T06:35:01Z drmeister: That's without type inference and without nil/T comparison optimization. 2015-07-04T06:35:10Z beach: Yep. 2015-07-04T06:35:13Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:36:59Z drmeister: And there is zero consing other than 510 bytes that I get whatever I do. 2015-07-04T06:37:12Z Shinmera: Sounds good all around. 2015-07-04T06:37:47Z drmeister: So that's pretty much it. Variables on the stack, immediates and inlining. 2015-07-04T06:37:55Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:38:08Z Shinmera: drmeister: If you can push the changes still, I can launch a build in a few minutes. 2015-07-04T06:38:25Z Shinmera: Probably won't be done by the time you wake up, but either way. 2015-07-04T06:38:42Z drmeister: Hang on - pushing 2015-07-04T06:39:15Z schjetne: Authors should put their IBAN numbers inside the covers. As a rule I don't buy e-books, the tools for production and distribution are free (as in freedom and price), the only ones I'm concerned with reinbursing are the authors who put in all the effort. Printed books are a different matter because there is effort in production and they provide added value over the contents. (return-from tangential-rant) 2015-07-04T06:39:51Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:40:17Z drmeister: Pushed 2015-07-04T06:40:21Z drmeister: newbuild branch 2015-07-04T06:41:02Z beach: drmeister: Well, this is very good news indeed. 2015-07-04T06:41:05Z Shinmera: drmeister: Ok, I'll launch a build on my workstation as soon as I can convince myself to leave the sofa. 2015-07-04T06:41:50Z drmeister: beach: Yes, it's very exciting. 2015-07-04T06:42:08Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-04T06:42:55Z RussT2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T06:43:34Z beach: And since you are using LLVM, I don't even have to implement all the traditional compiler optimizations in order to do even better. 2015-07-04T06:43:53Z beach: A few HIR-level optimizations should be sufficient. 2015-07-04T06:44:08Z beach: In particular type inference. 2015-07-04T06:45:51Z les quit (Quit: "") 2015-07-04T06:46:12Z drmeister: Agreed. 2015-07-04T06:46:13Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:46:37Z drmeister: What do you call the T/NIL optimization? There are some places where it generates NIL or T and then immediately tests for them. 2015-07-04T06:47:33Z drmeister: Maybe it doesn't have a name. 2015-07-04T06:48:58Z beach: It is similar to PRE 2015-07-04T06:49:10Z beach: Partial Redundancy Elimination. 2015-07-04T06:49:32Z beach: Except that PRE is only done for values and not for conditional branches. 2015-07-04T06:49:38Z beach: So I don't think it has a name. 2015-07-04T06:50:37Z beach: If it hasn't been done before, it might be publishable. 2015-07-04T06:51:18Z beach: There is a paper about code replication to avoid multiple tests. 2015-07-04T06:51:40Z beach: But they don't have a good algorithm for it the way I do, as I recall. 2015-07-04T06:52:39Z beach: I can do it by graph rewriting techniques, which is great because correctness is easy to see. 2015-07-04T06:53:39Z drmeister: Sorry - I was crawling around the MIR. 2015-07-04T06:53:44Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:53:55Z drmeister: I circled what I was looking at. 2015-07-04T06:53:57Z beach: No problem. I was just blabbing. 2015-07-04T06:54:15Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/TVrxL7Zt/mir.pdf 2015-07-04T06:55:09Z beach: Yeah, very typical. 2015-07-04T06:56:28Z beach: You will also find multiple tests for FIXNUMP. 2015-07-04T06:56:54Z beach: Maybe not in this case, but in general. 2015-07-04T06:57:04Z beach: Similar for CONSP. 2015-07-04T06:58:38Z drmeister: Yes. They turn into a single TEST instruction and a branch 2015-07-04T06:58:40Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T06:59:13Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T06:59:54Z drmeister: But I think the precalc-value-ref are hurting a lot. They may be turned into calls or they may be inlined by LLVM - I'll COMPILE-FILE this and disassemble it. 2015-07-04T07:01:03Z xirie joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:02:30Z beach: At the very least, they turn into an array access. 2015-07-04T07:03:51Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T07:03:59Z beach: But that should not be a problem, at least not in the future. 2015-07-04T07:04:16Z beach: These values can be cached in registers. 2015-07-04T07:04:29Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:05:05Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-04T07:05:13Z beach: You need to figure out how to convince LLVM that the result of a precalc-value-ref instruction can be cached. 2015-07-04T07:05:31Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:05:53Z xirie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-04T07:07:05Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T07:08:55Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:10:23Z zematis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T07:12:04Z drmeister: Here, I've highlighted the hot paths 2015-07-04T07:12:17Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/p9tmHj58/mir.pdf 2015-07-04T07:12:58Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:15:06Z beach: Does LLVM do loop-invariant optimizations? 2015-07-04T07:16:10Z beach: If so, the precalc-value-ref should be done outside the loop body. 2015-07-04T07:16:26Z drmeister: Also, this is the MIR, the final LLVM-IR could look quite different. 2015-07-04T07:16:35Z beach: Right. 2015-07-04T07:16:43Z drmeister: Actually, hang on, I COMPILE'd this - I better COMPILE-FILE it - that does more optimizations 2015-07-04T07:18:46Z beach: Still, I think what I am saying is important. You need to convince LLVM that those precalc-value-ref can be cached, i.e., that they compute the same value each time. Then LLVM should be able to cache the values in registers. 2015-07-04T07:19:33Z beach: It can't figure that out by itself, because it has to assume that other operations can change the result of these instructions. 2015-07-04T07:20:09Z drmeister: With COMPILE-FILE it's 10.7 seconds 2015-07-04T07:20:18Z drmeister: COMPILE was 13.3 2015-07-04T07:20:24Z beach: Nice! 2015-07-04T07:21:26Z beach: I thought you said 130. Did you change the arguments? 2015-07-04T07:23:02Z pjb: beach: so you'll be French too in 3 months by marriage? Don't they do naturalisations in couples? 2015-07-04T07:23:31Z beach: pjb: I don't know. I would have to at least apply. 2015-07-04T07:23:35Z beach is guessing that drmeister is too excited to pay attention. 2015-07-04T07:23:58Z pjb: Well, I'm a programmer, not a public administrator… 2015-07-04T07:24:42Z beach: Sure. I am not going to apply though. There is no point now that we are all basically in the same country. 2015-07-04T07:24:54Z pjb: Of course. 2015-07-04T07:25:23Z pjb: Only that they didn't really make it the same country, the way they built the Euro. This will backfire. 2015-07-04T07:25:41Z beach: We'll see. 2015-07-04T07:26:11Z beach: It's all still very new. Give them time. 2015-07-04T07:26:46Z xirie joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:28:48Z drmeister: Sorry - I'm digging around looking for the "final" LLVM-IR generated after all LLVM optimizations 2015-07-04T07:28:54Z drmeister: Reading... 2015-07-04T07:30:04Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:30:52Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:31:50Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:34:44Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:34:51Z pjb: In French university, you can still do some stuff without formal background, if you pass some exam (recently I watched an interview of a guy who did some interesting work in optics and could have access to university to experiment, without even the bac, but after some kind of "thesis defence". And notably, professionnal experience can be validated as formal background for late entry. But of course it's rather exceptionnal in a country 2015-07-04T07:34:51Z pjb: with 90% of pupils certified able to go to the University :-) 2015-07-04T07:34:54Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-04T07:35:09Z drmeister: Hmmmf - I prefer Cleavir graphs. 2015-07-04T07:35:18Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/Yo7PVNR5/cfg.cl-%3EFIBN.dot.pdf 2015-07-04T07:36:28Z agdistis joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:36:59Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:37:13Z beach: drmeister: I can't read that. You shall have to summarize for me. 2015-07-04T07:37:30Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T07:37:49Z drmeister: I can't read it either. 2015-07-04T07:38:01Z drmeister: I'm crawling around it in Adobe Illustrator 2015-07-04T07:38:47Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T07:39:32Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:39:35Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:40:31Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T07:40:32Z drmeister: Well, I can see it's not inlining my intrinsic functions. 2015-07-04T07:41:02Z beach: Your intrinsic functions? 2015-07-04T07:41:21Z j4cknewt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T07:41:27Z mrSpec quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-04T07:43:40Z drmeister: I implemented a lot of simple operations in C and I call them using the C calling convention. 2015-07-04T07:43:56Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T07:43:56Z drmeister: I thought they would be inlined but... nope. 2015-07-04T07:44:45Z beach: I see. 2015-07-04T07:44:52Z drmeister: They are short, they should be inlined - I'll look into it. Or I'll generate code for them. 2015-07-04T07:54:47Z pjb: drmeister: inlining can only be done by a compiler who knows the source. 2015-07-04T07:55:20Z pjb: Perhaps there's some provision for link-time inlining, but this would require extra machinery and intimate knowledge of the compiler at the other side. 2015-07-04T07:56:02Z pjb: Otherwise, you would have to use trick like fetching the binary code, analysing it, remove the call protocol, re-optimize it out, probably by rewriting some instructions. Not exactly simple. 2015-07-04T07:56:03Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:56:06Z drmeister: Yes, and I went through some contortions to get LLVM-IR code generated from a C++ file into Common Lisp code. 2015-07-04T07:56:20Z drmeister: ... inlined into Common Lisp code. 2015-07-04T07:56:44Z pjb: I guess you processed the LLVM-IR and transformed it to adapt it into the CL context. 2015-07-04T07:57:02Z drmeister: It is link time inlining, it does require extra machinery. 2015-07-04T07:57:11Z pjb: yep. 2015-07-04T07:57:24Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-04T07:57:58Z drmeister: Yet - something is broken. 2015-07-04T07:58:11Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-04T07:58:13Z pjb: wobh: oops! You now need to update the links! There are links from http://wobh.github.io/cl-cookbook/windows.html to sourceforge :-) 2015-07-04T07:59:34Z drmeister: Ugh, it's too late. It's been a long day. 'night all. 2015-07-04T08:01:14Z beach: 'night drmeister. 2015-07-04T08:01:19Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-04T08:03:57Z drmeister: beach: I just saw your comments. 2015-07-04T08:04:31Z drmeister: Yes, I changed the multiplier but the 10.7 (COMPILE-FILE) and 13.3 (COMPILE) timing numbers are with the same arguments. 2015-07-04T08:05:15Z drmeister: Also, inlining isn't working for a lot of intrinsic calls so once I fix that there should be an improvement. 2015-07-04T08:05:41Z drmeister: Alright - really good night. 2015-07-04T08:09:31Z momo-reina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T08:14:47Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-07-04T08:26:44Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T08:30:56Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-04T08:32:36Z Partmedia joined #lisp 2015-07-04T08:35:06Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-04T08:36:06Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T08:42:22Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2015-07-04T08:44:27Z momo-reina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T08:44:48Z momo-rei` joined #lisp 2015-07-04T08:45:04Z momo-rei` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T08:47:26Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T08:47:56Z momo-rei` joined #lisp 2015-07-04T08:48:44Z jackdaniel: oof, so much backlog, won't read that for sure :D 2015-07-04T08:48:45Z jackdaniel: hi all 2015-07-04T08:48:57Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. 2015-07-04T08:49:37Z beach: I can summarize the interchange between myself and drmeister so that you don't have to read it. 2015-07-04T08:50:12Z xirie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-04T08:50:27Z jackdaniel: sounds good :) 2015-07-04T08:50:36Z beach: Essentially, a loop computing Fibonacci numbers in Clasp with fixnums and Cleavir inlining is 100 times faster than in Clasp without Cleavir. 2015-07-04T08:50:40Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-04T08:50:48Z jackdaniel: congratz then :) 2015-07-04T08:50:53Z beach: Thanks! 2015-07-04T08:51:00Z beach: Very promising indeed. 2015-07-04T08:51:21Z beach: And there is still more room for improvements. 2015-07-04T08:51:58Z jackdaniel: always is (for sufficiently big project), what is crucial then is person/hour power 2015-07-04T08:53:01Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2015-07-04T08:53:11Z beach: Sure. The most benefit will be in the beginning. Then it will decline because improvements will be more modest and they will take longer and longer to code. 2015-07-04T08:53:33Z jackdaniel: logarithmic growth ;) 2015-07-04T08:53:39Z momo-rei` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T08:54:05Z smull quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T08:55:04Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-04T08:55:19Z beach: Something like that. 2015-07-04T08:55:50Z beach: Did you get the reports about bugs in Clasp that come from ECL code. I think it was LAST and BUTLAST. 2015-07-04T08:55:56Z beach: ? 2015-07-04T08:56:16Z jackdaniel: no I didn't 2015-07-04T08:56:49Z beach: Hmm. I have no easy way of grepping in the #clasp logs. 2015-07-04T08:56:50Z jackdaniel: at least nothing that I know about, I'll check on gitlab 2015-07-04T08:57:43Z jackdaniel: no, only recent bugreport with GC < 7.4 2015-07-04T08:59:59Z beach: Oh, well. You might have to check with drmeister and stassats. 2015-07-04T09:00:51Z smull joined #lisp 2015-07-04T09:01:23Z beach: stassats said: (deftype foo (x . y) (list 'qoute x y)) is broken on ECL too. 2015-07-04T09:01:55Z jackdaniel: ah, this, it's more about deftype as is - it uses member and iterates over arguments like on list 2015-07-04T09:01:57Z beach: jackdaniel: As I recall, it doesn't like the dotted lambda list for DEFTYPE. 2015-07-04T09:02:07Z beach: Right. 2015-07-04T09:02:19Z jackdaniel: yes, I've copied it from abcl issue tracker, where stassats kindly put it 2015-07-04T09:02:29Z beach: Oh, OK. Great! 2015-07-04T09:03:26Z jackdaniel: I wonder however how many bugs I've missed 2015-07-04T09:03:37Z jackdaniel: mentioned in #clasp 2015-07-04T09:04:55Z beach: I don't think you missed anything. 2015-07-04T09:07:34Z jackdaniel: that's good :) ok, time to test this VisualStudio2013 patches 2015-07-04T09:15:32Z smull quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-04T09:16:13Z smull joined #lisp 2015-07-04T09:23:46Z ktt9 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T09:23:54Z ktt9 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T09:24:34Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T09:24:47Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-04T09:25:20Z fantomik joined #lisp 2015-07-04T09:26:08Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-04T09:27:40Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T09:28:07Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-04T09:29:34Z the_real_intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-04T09:32:49Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-04T09:38:12Z jackdaniel: only project I know of, which has linear growth so far is linux 2015-07-04T09:38:23Z jackdaniel: saw even charts :) 2015-07-04T09:39:07Z beach: Growth as in number of additional users per time unit? 2015-07-04T09:39:23Z jackdaniel: no, growth as improvements in time 2015-07-04T09:39:39Z beach: Oh! 2015-07-04T09:39:56Z beach: Right, referring to previous discussion. I get it now. :) 2015-07-04T09:40:09Z jackdaniel: linux as in kernel, not gnu/linux os 2015-07-04T09:40:17Z pjb: then necessarily it will be exponential growth! e^-t 2015-07-04T09:40:31Z pjb: since improvements converges toward perfection. 2015-07-04T09:40:49Z jackdaniel: new functionalities might be considered as improvements as well 2015-07-04T09:41:13Z jackdaniel: so when you finish something, you can jump into something another, leaving previous thing perfect as is 2015-07-04T09:42:11Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-04T09:43:52Z jackdaniel: ibm tried to push more ppl into OS/2 development, but fast initial growth ended in numerous regressions, so it's matter of human power only below some certain level of complexity 2015-07-04T09:48:31Z the_real_intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T09:49:07Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-04T09:49:38Z jackdaniel: https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fthetowerofbabel.net%2Fyahoo_site_admin%2Fassets%2Fimages%2Ftower_of_babel.170113154.jpg&f=1 2015-07-04T09:52:28Z pjb: Architecturally, this doesn't look sound… 2015-07-04T09:53:16Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T09:53:51Z jackdaniel: babel tower, abandonned by god and people 2015-07-04T09:54:09Z jackdaniel: once a proof of human proud and mighty, now sad legend 2015-07-04T09:54:52Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-04T09:59:13Z momo-reina quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T10:00:27Z jackdaniel: s/proud/pride/ 2015-07-04T10:00:41Z jackdaniel: s/mighty/might/ :P 2015-07-04T10:01:47Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-04T10:05:12Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-04T10:13:03Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-04T10:13:52Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T10:21:32Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-04T10:22:39Z ziocroc quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-04T10:23:51Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-04T10:26:04Z 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beach: nyef: Any hacking plans today? 2015-07-04T13:41:32Z nyef: At some point today I'd like to try and get color drawing working in NQ-CLIM. 2015-07-04T13:41:50Z tengonovia left #lisp 2015-07-04T13:42:09Z nyef: Right now, though, I'm trying to figure out what I can about a particular hardware-accelerated video card. 2015-07-04T13:42:26Z beach: Sounds like fun. 2015-07-04T13:42:48Z nyef: Reverse engineering? Great fun, when you have something to go on. (-: 2015-07-04T13:47:24Z freston joined #lisp 2015-07-04T13:47:48Z cojy quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-04T13:47:58Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-04T13:48:39Z freston quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T13:49:26Z mrcom joined #lisp 2015-07-04T13:50:32Z freston joined #lisp 2015-07-04T13:55:22Z kdas_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T13:55:33Z pgomes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T13:55:47Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-04T13:57:35Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T14:01:46Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T14:05:45Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T14:06:26Z Jordan__ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:06:44Z Jordan__ is now known as JKaye 2015-07-04T14:07:22Z JKaye: Is there any way to specify the argument to a (go) form at runtime? 2015-07-04T14:08:01Z JKaye: I would like to be able to push symbols onto a stack, then later pop them off and (go) to them 2015-07-04T14:08:16Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:11:00Z nyef: JKaye: No, you would need to use CATCH/THROW for that. 2015-07-04T14:12:08Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:12:13Z nyef: Or have some construct that dispatches on the symbol and then GOes to the appropriate tag, probably built via a macro. 2015-07-04T14:14:18Z JKaye: I may have to go with the second option 2015-07-04T14:15:00Z JKaye: My code is all being built from a few macros right now anyway, so I guess it shouldn't be too difficult to do something like that 2015-07-04T14:23:07Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:26:16Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T14:26:44Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:27:21Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:28:01Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T14:28:27Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-04T14:30:22Z JKaye: It might be a little more difficult than I was expecting actually 2015-07-04T14:30:33Z JKaye: Basically I'm looking to make this expansion work 2015-07-04T14:30:34Z JKaye: http://pastebin.com/PNnQ1aZ1 2015-07-04T14:31:10Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-04T14:32:11Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:33:03Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T14:34:29Z |3b|: maybe a loop with a CASE in it instead of tagbody? 2015-07-04T14:36:43Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:36:50Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-04T14:36:59Z |3b| also thinks you can close over the go tags and store (lambda () (go ...)) then funcall that 2015-07-04T14:37:07Z |3b|: maybe i'm thinking of blocks though 2015-07-04T14:37:44Z nyef: No, no... That bit with (lambda () (go ...)) should work. 2015-07-04T14:38:07Z |3b|: yeah, was just realizing the mention of dynamic extent in the clhs implied that 2015-07-04T14:38:12Z nyef: Same principle as closing over a block, really, only GO tags are all at the same lexical level, and don't accept values. 2015-07-04T14:38:22Z JKaye: How would that work? 2015-07-04T14:39:02Z |3b|: (tagbody :foo (funcall (lambda () (go :foo)))) for a trivial example 2015-07-04T14:39:25Z |3b|: in your case, store the (lambda()(go :foo)) instead of :foo and funcall it to jump to :foo 2015-07-04T14:39:35Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:39:40Z JKaye: Ahh I understand 2015-07-04T14:39:43Z JKaye: Let me give that a shot 2015-07-04T14:40:01Z nyef: Or prep a plist mapping :foo to the lambda with the GO, and then you can funcall (getf ...)... 2015-07-04T14:41:12Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-04T14:48:16Z wobh: A 2015-07-04T14:50:34Z chingon joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:51:31Z chingon: Hola, ¿qué tal? :-) 2015-07-04T14:51:49Z JKaye: |3b|: Got it working! Thanks a lot 2015-07-04T14:51:53Z JKaye: nyef: Thanks to you too 2015-07-04T14:54:22Z fantomik joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:55:24Z chingon is now known as MoO3 2015-07-04T14:58:25Z heurist` joined #lisp 2015-07-04T14:58:37Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:01:21Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:02:22Z beach: Shinmera: Around? 2015-07-04T15:05:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T15:05:36Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:05:36Z attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 2015-07-04T15:05:36Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-04T15:05:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:08:01Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:08:20Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-04T15:09:41Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:16:28Z otjura: are there any benefits to Common Lisp over Scheme? 2015-07-04T15:16:35Z pjb: Yes. 2015-07-04T15:16:45Z pjb: See, the reaction is quite different ;-) 2015-07-04T15:16:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-04T15:17:01Z beach: otjura: This is a Common Lisp channel so you won't get an unbiased opinion here. 2015-07-04T15:17:08Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-04T15:17:13Z pjb: Try ##lisp 2015-07-04T15:17:52Z otjura: let's formulate more clearly. what is the benefit of two namespaces versus one? 2015-07-04T15:18:04Z otjura: that's where it boils down to, doesn't it? 2015-07-04T15:18:12Z freston quit (Quit: freston) 2015-07-04T15:18:15Z beach: otjura: This is a Common Lisp channel so you won't get an unbiased opinion here. 2015-07-04T15:18:21Z pjb: otjura: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 2015-07-04T15:18:27Z otjura: I've read it. 2015-07-04T15:18:28Z beach: otjura: And, no, that's not what it boils down to. 2015-07-04T15:18:49Z beach: There is also CLOS, the condition system, packages, etc, etc, etc. 2015-07-04T15:18:53Z otjura: I digress. on lowest technical level it does. 2015-07-04T15:19:10Z jasom: otjura: 2 namespaces is but a minor difference 2015-07-04T15:19:30Z jasom: call/cc is a big distinguishing featuer of scheme that can't easily be implemented in common lisp 2015-07-04T15:19:49Z jasom: wheras it's fairly trivial to implement 2 namespaces in scheme or 1 namespace in common lisp via a macro 2015-07-04T15:19:50Z Shinmera: beach: I am now 2015-07-04T15:20:05Z beach: Is your logbot dead? 2015-07-04T15:20:24Z Shinmera: No 2015-07-04T15:20:44Z otjura: jasom: so theoretically scheme has more power? 2015-07-04T15:20:46Z Shinmera: Colleen: hi 2015-07-04T15:20:46Z Colleen: Hello. 2015-07-04T15:20:48Z jasom: otjura: and the lisp package system, as many as its faults, make it tractible to write macros safey without defsyntax 2015-07-04T15:21:13Z beach: Shinmera: OK, something else is wrong then. I am missing 9 hours of #clasp logs 2015-07-04T15:21:21Z Shinmera: beach: From when to when? 2015-07-04T15:21:41Z beach: 07:00 UTC to now. 2015-07-04T15:21:50Z Shinmera: I can see them just fine 2015-07-04T15:22:03Z beach: OK, I'll try to reload the page from scatch. 2015-07-04T15:22:06Z jasom: otjura: I said "easily" http://www.cliki.net/cl-cont 2015-07-04T15:23:56Z jasom: otjura: but if you care about which has more power theoretically, you probably want scheme. 2015-07-04T15:24:19Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T15:24:21Z jasom: lisp takes a more pragmatic and less theoretical approach to many things 2015-07-04T15:24:31Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T15:24:31Z |3b|: "theoretically" they are both turing equivalent, so both can compute the same set of things 2015-07-04T15:26:11Z otjura: jasom: thanks, that about answers it 2015-07-04T15:26:42Z jasom: otjura: though both communities are large enough and have enough implementations that you can't make any sweeping statements about either. 2015-07-04T15:27:55Z Shinmera: You can always make sweeping statements. It just won't be of much use for anything beside condescension though. 2015-07-04T15:28:07Z klltkr joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:28:23Z beach: Shinmera: What is the link for the #clasp log with default interval? 2015-07-04T15:28:31Z Posterdati: hi 2015-07-04T15:28:37Z Shinmera: beach: http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp 2015-07-04T15:28:37Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:28:39Z Posterdati: how can I change the stack size in ecl? 2015-07-04T15:28:53Z beach: Shinmera: https://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp doesn't work for me. 2015-07-04T15:29:15Z OxMLR: Anyone here ever write their own Lisp? 2015-07-04T15:29:15Z minion: OxMLR, memo from pjb: DANG! I have a hangman game that was in active development two or three weeks ago, but it's done now! Damned, I'll never be able to satisfy you! 2015-07-04T15:29:15Z minion: OxMLR, memo from pjb: http://cliki.net/Game 2015-07-04T15:29:39Z beach: minion: Please tell OxMLR about SICL. 2015-07-04T15:29:39Z minion: OxMLR: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2015-07-04T15:29:39Z pjb: OxMLR: why bother answering you, obviously you don't read this channel! 2015-07-04T15:29:40Z Shinmera: beach: I don't know what to say, I'm seeing everything from even until the most recent message you just made 2015-07-04T15:29:52Z beach: Shinmera: Hmm, OK. 2015-07-04T15:29:54Z pjb: OxMLR: TWO people are implementing two different CL implementation current in here! 2015-07-04T15:30:08Z pjb: OxMLR: beach -> sicl and drmeister -> clasp; but you never heard of them!!! 2015-07-04T15:30:20Z Shinmera: beach: I can only think of a caching issue. 2015-07-04T15:30:28Z MoO3: otjura: esta vida es como un restaurante ... xd 2015-07-04T15:30:36Z OxMLR: :D i didnt know if they were online or not :P 2015-07-04T15:30:55Z Shinmera: beach: Does http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp?from=2015-07-04T07%3A00%3A00 show anything? 2015-07-04T15:31:09Z drmeister: OxMLR: We are 2015-07-04T15:31:30Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:31:49Z pavelpenev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T15:34:42Z nell joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:36:06Z beach: Shinmera: It works. Give me 30 minutes. Emergency here. 2015-07-04T15:36:56Z Shinmera: beach: I'm guessing there might be a caching issue somewhere on the way to your screen. Maybe cloudflare is doing something weird when it shouldn't. 2015-07-04T15:36:57Z MoO3 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-04T15:37:51Z OxMLR: I'm planning on writing my first Lisp in Rust, if anyone wants to help or offer any advice PM me c: 2015-07-04T15:38:13Z |3b|: beach, Shinmera: http vs https? 2015-07-04T15:38:20Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T15:38:30Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:38:41Z Shinmera: |3b|: There's no https version for it to begin with 2015-07-04T15:38:47Z |3b|: http (Shinmera's link) works here, https (beach's link) returns an error 2015-07-04T15:38:49Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T15:39:05Z Posterdati: how can I change the stack size in ecl? 2015-07-04T15:39:12Z Shinmera: (https doesn't work because of the single-subdomain level certificate) 2015-07-04T15:39:22Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T15:39:40Z Shinmera: |3b|: Well he said there weren't any logs for a specific time range, so I assumed he had a link that actually worked at all. 2015-07-04T15:40:11Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-04T15:40:54Z pjb: OxMLR: read LiSP: Lisp in Small Pieces http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz 2015-07-04T15:41:31Z manfoo7` joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:42:07Z manfoo7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T15:43:15Z jasom: Shinmera: well lisp does remain influential in "key algorithmic techniques such as recursion and condescension" 2015-07-04T15:43:33Z Shinmera: jasom: Indeed, that's what I was hinting at. 2015-07-04T15:44:01Z jasom: Shinmera: that's a blog article that I read at least once a year 2015-07-04T15:44:41Z Shinmera: It is very good indeed. 2015-07-04T15:44:50Z freston joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:45:13Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:45:53Z freston quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T15:46:03Z edgar-rft: Posterdati: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/re86.html 2015-07-04T15:46:10Z OxMLR: pjb, i think that link is down? 2015-07-04T15:46:36Z Posterdati: edgar-rft: thanks 2015-07-04T15:46:38Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T15:48:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:52:26Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:54:10Z segmond joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:54:12Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-04T15:54:33Z drmeister: Hi OxMLR, yes beach and I are sharing code and experiences as we develop a pair of new Common Lisp implementations. 2015-07-04T15:54:48Z drmeister: His is called Sicl and the one I'm working on is called Clasp. 2015-07-04T15:55:24Z drmeister: github.com/drmeister/clasp 2015-07-04T15:55:39Z drmeister: minion: tell OxMLR about Clasp 2015-07-04T15:55:39Z minion: OxMLR: Clasp: An implementation of Common Lisp that interoperates smoothly with C++ and uses LLVM to generate native code 2015-07-04T15:55:45Z drmeister: Yay! 2015-07-04T15:56:17Z drmeister: We got a 142x (one hundred and forty two times) speed up last night. 2015-07-04T15:56:41Z Fade: !! 2015-07-04T15:57:27Z drmeister: It's now within an order of magnitude of SBCL and C. 2015-07-04T15:57:39Z pjb: OxMLR: try amazon then. 2015-07-04T15:57:54Z drmeister: And there are obvious improvements/optimizations to make still. 2015-07-04T15:58:15Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T15:58:51Z OxMLR: drmeister, interesting, I believe I saw that on HN actually 2015-07-04T16:01:22Z beach: |3b|: Oh, maybe so. Thanks. 2015-07-04T16:01:46Z beach: Anyway, I need to go. 2015-07-04T16:05:03Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:07:30Z drmeister: OxMLR: Yeah, take a look at it. Cleavir is a beautiful compiler. It uses CLOS extensively and it is very easy to follow what is going on. 2015-07-04T16:08:10Z drmeister: My code... uh... less so - but it works and it allows C++ code to be run and interface with a Common Lisp environment. 2015-07-04T16:08:14Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-04T16:10:08Z drmeister: I like to think of Cleavir as the shiny, chrome engine and Clasp as the tires: they touch the real world and get muddy but they get you new places. 2015-07-04T16:11:22Z drmeister needs to get some retreading and that undercoating that he keeps hearing about. If you don't get the undercoating, that baby will rust right out from under you. 2015-07-04T16:11:37Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:13:10Z drmeister: I'm on Darwin. SBCL version 1.2.11 and ASDF version 3.1.3 are pretty up to date - right? 2015-07-04T16:14:21Z Shinmera: Yes 2015-07-04T16:14:41Z nyef: Your SBCL is about two months old, but that shouldn't be a big deal. 2015-07-04T16:15:01Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:17:11Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:17:30Z aiken joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:18:49Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-04T16:21:45Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T16:22:14Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-04T16:22:15Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:22:15Z linux_dream quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T16:22:30Z salv00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T16:22:50Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:23:56Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:24:46Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:26:27Z drmeister: How do people get quicklisp into SBCL at startup? 2015-07-04T16:27:35Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T16:27:37Z drmeister: .sbclrc 2015-07-04T16:27:43Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:27:47Z nyef: Have a look at (ql:add-to-init-file), yes. 2015-07-04T16:27:56Z nyef: (I think that's what it's called, at least.) 2015-07-04T16:28:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: I had this website with a list of papers on Common Lisp papers provided by the community. They were all proposals and descriptions of libraries. Does anyone here know what I'm thinking of? I can't find it. 2015-07-04T16:31:55Z cojy joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:32:19Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-04T16:32:41Z tokenrove: Petit_Dejeuner: are you thinking of https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/ ? 2015-07-04T16:33:19Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:33:54Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:34:01Z Petit_Dejeuner: tokenrove, yes, thank you 2015-07-04T16:39:19Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T16:39:23Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:40:16Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T16:42:24Z aiken quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T16:43:08Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:44:59Z linux_dream quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-04T16:45:40Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:47:02Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T16:47:49Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-04T16:48:14Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-04T16:49:33Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T16:50:59Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T16:51:16Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:51:47Z dnm_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T16:52:06Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-04T16:52:09Z drmeister: What is the most idiomatic way to set *default-pathname-defaults* to a particular directory to load things from it? 2015-07-04T16:52:40Z drmeister: Just (setq *default-pathname-defaults* (pathname "~/WHATEVER"))? 2015-07-04T16:54:05Z manfoo7` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T16:54:17Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:54:32Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:56:01Z alusion joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:56:28Z manfoo7` joined #lisp 2015-07-04T16:56:33Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-04T16:57:28Z fantomik quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-04T16:59:59Z oGMo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T17:00:18Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:00:23Z `micro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T17:00:38Z `micro joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:00:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: drmeister, If it's dynamic, then you could use a let, right? 2015-07-04T17:01:02Z `micro is now known as Guest77697 2015-07-04T17:01:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: (let ((*default-pathname-defaults* (pathname "~/WHATEVER")) (do-operations)) 2015-07-04T17:02:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-04T17:02:23Z oGMo joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:03:24Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-04T17:06:39Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:08:55Z samebcha1e is now known as samebchase 2015-07-04T17:09:36Z drmeister: Petit_Dejeuner: Thank you 2015-07-04T17:10:26Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T17:11:03Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:13:03Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:13:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: np 2015-07-04T17:14:25Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:15:33Z heurist` joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:15:47Z MoO3 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:16:07Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T17:16:34Z MoO3: Should the wild horses that roam North America be considered native wildlife? 2015-07-04T17:19:32Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-04T17:20:09Z ggole: Introduced species aren't usually considered native. 2015-07-04T17:20:54Z DNoved1 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:20:56Z dfox quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T17:21:01Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:24:47Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:24:47Z akkad: well horses were here originally before people in NA 2015-07-04T17:24:59Z akkad: it's like calling "first post" "native" 2015-07-04T17:25:04Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:25:21Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:27:03Z ggole: Oh, hmm 2015-07-04T17:27:16Z ggole: I thought they were like camels and foxes in .au - totally nonendemic 2015-07-04T17:29:43Z dfox joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:31:24Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:32:50Z Bike: american horses went extinct a couple millenia ago 2015-07-04T17:33:53Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T17:35:07Z MoO3: ggole ...like a yellow carp in .ch :-) 2015-07-04T17:35:17Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:35:26Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T17:37:50Z jlarocco: if I have two byte values (msb and lsb) how can I convert them to a signed 16 bit number? 2015-07-04T17:38:38Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:38:50Z Bike: (+ (ash high 8) low) 2015-07-04T17:39:04Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:39:25Z jlarocco: but that returns an unsigned 2015-07-04T17:39:53Z williamyao: (* (if (logbitp 15 msb) -1 1) (dpb msb (byte 7 8) lsb)) 2015-07-04T17:39:56Z jlarocco: (the (signed-byte 16) (+ (ash msb 8) lsb)) does the type conversion, but signals an error 2015-07-04T17:40:01Z jlarocco: for negatives 2015-07-04T17:40:10Z Bike: that's not what "the" does. william's should work 2015-07-04T17:41:03Z jlarocco: that will technically work, but is there any way to do it without the if? 2015-07-04T17:41:25Z Bike: what's wrong with an if? 2015-07-04T17:41:34Z jlarocco: I was hoping for a way to just reinterpret what was already there 2015-07-04T17:41:41Z H4ns: jlarocco: look at the binary-types library, https://github.com/frodef/binary-types 2015-07-04T17:41:54Z jlarocco: i don't need a new value, just a way to indicate the value already there is actually signed 2015-07-04T17:42:01Z williamyao: Lisp is not C. You can't just go treating everything as a sequence of bits all willy nilly. 2015-07-04T17:44:21Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:45:36Z jlarocco: H4ns, I think that will work 2015-07-04T17:45:38Z jlarocco: thanks 2015-07-04T17:46:07Z nyef: Some of us can get away with treating everything as a sequence of bits all willy nilly, but it takes a while to get there... and we STILL do the IF thing for signed conversions. 2015-07-04T17:46:14Z MoO3: not willy nilly but itsy bitsy 2015-07-04T17:46:31Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T17:46:40Z nyef: No, itsy bitsy is small stuff, willy nilly is uncontrolled stuff. 2015-07-04T17:49:56Z MoO3: whitout aviators all airplanes are uncontrolled 2015-07-04T17:51:41Z MoO3: whitout was not controlled 2015-07-04T17:54:30Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-04T17:55:14Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:55:21Z pgomes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T17:55:24Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T17:57:11Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:57:29Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-07-04T17:57:38Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:02:07Z MoO3 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-04T18:02:56Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T18:04:23Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:10:52Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:11:52Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T18:16:20Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-04T18:17:09Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:17:15Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:17:29Z Baggers quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2015-07-04T18:23:22Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T18:28:44Z m_zr0 quit (Quit: brb) 2015-07-04T18:30:49Z milosn_ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:31:27Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T18:31:45Z milosn_ is now known as milosn 2015-07-04T18:32:48Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:35:04Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T18:35:24Z m_zr0 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:38:30Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:40:02Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:41:32Z kdas_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T18:41:37Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:41:37Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-07-04T18:41:37Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:42:22Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-04T18:42:36Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-04T18:44:16Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:48:09Z jackdaniel: hm, what is better - preserve invalid corner-case with system boehm GC version 7.2 displaying warning, or just prevent building with it hinting, that included with ECL boehm GC is compatible? 2015-07-04T18:50:54Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-04T18:51:35Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-04T18:54:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-04T18:55:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T19:01:11Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T19:02:45Z NNaNDude joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:03:07Z NaNDude quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T19:04:10Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:04:50Z JKaye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T19:05:10Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:08:41Z dnm joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:09:43Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T19:09:46Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:12:12Z drmeister: Ho ho ho, Clasp is about 7x faster than Python for that Fibonacci example. 2015-07-04T19:14:17Z otjura: drmeister: nice google talk and great work with CLASP. 2015-07-04T19:16:07Z dim: drmeister: nice! unfortunately beating python at being fast is quite easy, I would say... next up? javascript? java/jvm? sbcl? ;-) 2015-07-04T19:16:17Z drmeister: C 2015-07-04T19:16:31Z dim: oh, yeah. I like your ambitions ;-) 2015-07-04T19:16:34Z drmeister: But my colleagues use Python. 2015-07-04T19:16:54Z dim: maybe a python compiler in cl wouldn't be totally out of reach? 2015-07-04T19:17:03Z dim: I don't mean for you to implement, forcibly... 2015-07-04T19:17:21Z dim: well then I guess the problem is all the C-coded parts that python uses to avoid being even more slow 2015-07-04T19:17:48Z Bike: clpython, right? 2015-07-04T19:18:05Z drmeister: otjura: Thank you 2015-07-04T19:18:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: "C" Why stop there? Fortan still exists. 2015-07-04T19:18:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ruRZqhqg/ 2015-07-04T19:18:44Z dim: https://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/manual.html#completeness-compabitility 2015-07-04T19:18:49Z Bike: i saw meister's talk posted with «note: "molecular" here is not a metaphor» 2015-07-04T19:19:08Z drmeister: That's SBCL - note: no declares because I'm comparing Clasp's current level of optimization (no type inference) to SBCL 2015-07-04T19:19:37Z drmeister: Clasp is 10.7 seconds. 2015-07-04T19:19:39Z Bike: have you added stuff to with explicit type annotations? 2015-07-04T19:20:33Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-04T19:21:40Z drmeister: Clasp doesn't use type annotations yet so that will speed up SBCL and have no effect (yet) on Clasp. 2015-07-04T19:22:37Z Bike: maybe you should do that next. just easy stuff, transform + to fixnum+ or something 2015-07-04T19:22:49Z drmeister: I also implemented the algorithm in C++ and it requires 0.15 seconds 2015-07-04T19:22:51Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:23:04Z drmeister: So there is still room for improvement. 2015-07-04T19:23:32Z drmeister: But we can see where the improvements need to be made because I can compare the LLVM-IR generated by Clang with the LLVM-IR generated by Clasp. 2015-07-04T19:24:59Z Xach left #lisp 2015-07-04T19:25:41Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:25:51Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:26:53Z drmeister: Here's python2.7 2015-07-04T19:26:57Z dim: drmeister: here's my fav fib definition in CL: (defun fib (n) (loop repeat n for x = 0 then y and y = 1 then (+ x y) finally (return y))) 2015-07-04T19:27:03Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/p3qeFWjV/ 2015-07-04T19:27:19Z drmeister: Python: 73.9 seconds 2015-07-04T19:27:42Z drmeister: My esteemed colleagues (and other Scientific Python weenies) can suck on that! 2015-07-04T19:27:48Z XachX: now now 2015-07-04T19:28:13Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:28:13Z PuercoPop: iirc Nick Levine demo-ed something to expose CL to python last year. 2015-07-04T19:28:32Z XachX: You know that anything that must be fast in python is done via an FFI of some sort. 2015-07-04T19:29:00Z dim: drmeister: see also http://tapoueh.org/blog/2012/07/10-solving-sudoku and http://tapoueh.org/blog/2012/08/20-performance-the-easiest-way 2015-07-04T19:29:17Z drmeister: XachX: Yes, Scientific Python uses boost.python - which is the C++ template programming prototype for clbind - Clasp's interface to C++. 2015-07-04T19:29:28Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T19:30:33Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-04T19:30:35Z drmeister: I'm convinced that it is the reason that Scientific Python exists. Without boost.python it would be a much harder job to expose the C++/C/Fortran libraries that Scientific Python relies on. 2015-07-04T19:32:25Z NNaNDude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-04T19:32:53Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:33:07Z dim: I think I'm that close to writing a dim-cl-lib or something that depends on the usual things I'm using in several projects and add my usual monkey patches and local improvements (that I don't think are worthy of publishing)... how bad is that? 2015-07-04T19:33:18Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:33:19Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-04T19:34:11Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-04T19:34:48Z dim: it would have hunchentoot + load-static-ressource-in-the-binary-image things, fixed simple-routes, py-configparser + list-of-alist-to/from-ini, cl-who and cl-ppcre, alexandria with some functions exported, things like that 2015-07-04T19:37:28Z zematis joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:39:45Z JKaye joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:40:30Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:41:02Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-04T19:42:47Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-04T19:43:12Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:43:44Z ggole quit 2015-07-04T19:44:08Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T19:44:15Z skeuomor1 joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:46:32Z skeuomorf quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T19:47:02Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:48:39Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-04T19:49:07Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T19:51:12Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:51:56Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:52:52Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T19:53:38Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T19:54:44Z JKaye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T19:55:44Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-04T19:56:20Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:56:37Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-04T19:57:30Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-04T19:58:28Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-04T20:10:55Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T20:11:52Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-04T20:12:12Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-04T20:15:13Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-04T20:16:20Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-04T20:20:07Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-04T20:24:08Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-04T20:25:39Z pjb: XachX: I've pushed some more corrections. 2015-07-04T20:26:15Z shum joined #lisp 2015-07-04T20:27:42Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-04T20:29:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-04T20:32:07Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-04T20:32:15Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T20:32:41Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-04T20:32:50Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-04T20:34:11Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-04T20:34:44Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-04T20:35:57Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-04T20:37:20Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-04T20:37:39Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-04T20:39:41Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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If they point to the same closure? 2015-07-05T00:36:34Z nyef: If they are EQ? 2015-07-05T00:37:04Z nyef: I'd ask why this is even a question, but I'm fairly sure that I don't want to know. 2015-07-05T00:37:16Z kristof: Implementation. 2015-07-05T00:37:28Z kristof: Lisp interpreter. 2015-07-05T00:37:42Z pjb: kristof: you could compare the code. 2015-07-05T00:38:03Z pjb: So you could say that (equal (lambda (x) x) (lambda (y) y)) because the generated code is the same. 2015-07-05T00:38:40Z pjb: Perhaps even (equal (lambda (x) (+ 1 x)) (lambda (y) (+ y 1))) if you can perform the comparison taking into account data flow and properties of operators. 2015-07-05T00:38:48Z pjb: but you have to be careful with side effects. 2015-07-05T00:38:51Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T00:38:51Z nyef: I'd say to stick with EQ. Anything else just opens a bit of a can of worms. 2015-07-05T00:39:16Z kristof: I am leaning toward that, since pjb's solution is clever but is slightly scary. 2015-07-05T00:39:20Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-07-05T00:39:28Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-05T00:39:39Z pjb: You could include a symbolic evaluator, evaluate both functions, and compare the symbolic results obtained. If they're the same, then the functions would be the same. 2015-07-05T00:40:24Z kristof: For my implementation that ends up being the same as name comparison, but later there will be a nuance between the two... 2015-07-05T00:40:45Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-07-05T00:41:12Z zeitue quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T00:41:19Z kristof: Thank you both 2015-07-05T00:41:48Z pocket quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-05T00:43:59Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Right now it's showing a black-on-white line drawing of a maze, similar to the first wizardry game, only with ONE of the lines in magenta. 2015-07-05T02:47:28Z harish_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T02:47:49Z nyef: In short, not impressive yet. 2015-07-05T02:48:58Z Quadrescence: nyef, hey if lispers are impressed with 60 year old tech i'm sure we would be entertained by a monochromatic maze :) 2015-07-05T02:49:07Z Quadrescence: or dichromatic 2015-07-05T02:50:45Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-05T02:51:14Z freston joined #lisp 2015-07-05T02:53:37Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-05T02:53:55Z Brozo_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-05T02:54:01Z nyef: Let's see... 60 year old tech. "Word Processing" was coined as a term 60 years ago. The Polio vaccine was approved by the FDA. Experimental existence proof of the antiproton. The first accurate atomic clock was created 60 years ago August 24. The Velcro patent was awarded. The first wireless TV remote... 2015-07-05T02:58:06Z nyef: If you want to step that down to 46 year old tech, there was the moon landing. That was pretty impressive. 2015-07-05T02:58:08Z pie_ is now known as ie_ 2015-07-05T02:58:31Z ie_ is now known as pie_ 2015-07-05T02:58:47Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-05T02:59:46Z freston quit (Quit: freston) 2015-07-05T03:06:18Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T03:07:13Z shum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-05T03:08:46Z nyef: Okay, color stuff all synced up to github. 2015-07-05T03:09:47Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-05T03:09:52Z nyef: Tomorrow, assuming that I don't spend all of my time hacking the Linux kernel or something, I hope to get the graphics-method keyword arguments thing sorted. 2015-07-05T03:10:13Z nyef: And some more planning done, since that will empty my task queue. 2015-07-05T03:10:14Z beach: Sounds good. 2015-07-05T03:10:30Z nyef: Oh, and I still need to do indirect and flipping inks. 2015-07-05T03:17:17Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-05T03:21:42Z Brozo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-05T03:22:31Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T03:24:24Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-05T03:27:18Z nyef: Heh. "If an infinite recursion is created by using an indirect ink, an error is signalled when the recursion is created, when the design is used for drawing, or both." Does CONTROL-STACK-EXHAUSTED work as a suitable error? (-: 2015-07-05T03:27:40Z nyef: (Okay, to be fair, the resolution procedure is probably tail-recursive.) 2015-07-05T03:28:05Z sdemarre1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-05T03:28:12Z beach: Maybe you can set a low optimize flag to avoid TCO. :) 2015-07-05T03:28:42Z nyef: Or I can ignore the problem and hope it goes away? 2015-07-05T03:28:58Z nyef: I'll probably want to revise my chosen representation for indirect inks anyway. 2015-07-05T03:29:04Z beach: That's optimal when it comes to the amount of work required. 2015-07-05T03:34:43Z beach: Wow, beautiful thunderstorm here. Off-topic, I know, sorry. Back to Common Lisp. 2015-07-05T03:35:12Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-05T03:36:00Z bola joined #lisp 2015-07-05T03:45:19Z drmeister: Hello 2015-07-05T03:45:40Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-05T03:48:09Z dnm quit 2015-07-05T03:48:27Z beach: Hello drmeister. 2015-07-05T03:50:07Z drmeister: Stassats hinted that one of my problems may be that my eval is getting top level forms and is not processing them as such. I haven't had the time to investigate further. 2015-07-05T03:50:46Z drmeister: 13:21 looking at eval, you just put the form into lambda and compile it, that's not going to work with defmacro 2015-07-05T03:50:54Z beach: drmeister: I suggest you lay low. The problem is very likely in Cleavir and I am on it. 2015-07-05T03:51:17Z drmeister: Ok 2015-07-05T03:52:39Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-05T03:53:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: The messages in the topic/motd are all recommended? 2015-07-05T03:53:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: *libraries 2015-07-05T03:54:37Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Hell will freeze over before #lisp participants can all agree to recommend something. 2015-07-05T03:55:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ah, I'll just do whatever I want then. 2015-07-05T03:55:49Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: I suggest you ask here about specific libraries, and then you listen to all the (contradictory) opinions before making your own decision. 2015-07-05T03:56:40Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: You can then choose the opinion of people whose opinion you trust and ignore that of others. 2015-07-05T03:58:17Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-05T03:58:27Z nyef: Or you could do your own research and form your own opinions without asking in the channel. 2015-07-05T03:58:42Z beach: That's much harder, though. 2015-07-05T03:58:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: ^ 2015-07-05T03:59:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, I should ask about specific libraries in here from now on though. Usually when I ask it's something like "what's the *best* library for x" 2015-07-05T04:05:47Z nyef: And the answer depends on your selection criteria, which usually isn't specified, so everybody applies their own, hence the disagreements. 2015-07-05T04:06:46Z beach: Exactly. 2015-07-05T04:09:00Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-05T04:10:46Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-05T04:11:02Z bola left #lisp 2015-07-05T04:11:18Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-05T04:11:57Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-05T04:15:14Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2015-07-05T04:16:24Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-05T04:18:42Z beach: drmeister: I can reproduce the problem here now. 2015-07-05T04:19:18Z drmeister: Excellent! 2015-07-05T04:19:30Z beach: drmeister: As I said, my SICL environment is very incomplete. At the moment, I only have a function to load source code, so it uses CL:COMPILE as its compiler. 2015-07-05T04:19:37Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-05T04:20:07Z beach: drmeister: But when I use the function AST-FROM-FILE, which is the beginning of a COMPILE-FILE, I get multiple macro expansions. 2015-07-05T04:20:43Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-05T04:20:53Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-05T04:20:56Z drmeister: Ok 2015-07-05T04:21:20Z beach: drmeister: I am not sure how much time I can spend hacking today. A friend and his sons are coming over for lunch, so I have to cook twice today. 2015-07-05T04:21:47Z beach: And it's the weekend, so I want to spend time with my (admittedly small) family. 2015-07-05T04:22:36Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-05T04:22:47Z beach: I realize some people might be impatient, but they shall just have to wait until I get around to it. 2015-07-05T04:22:47Z drmeister: No problem. I'm messing with problems with llvm. At your leisure. 2015-07-05T04:23:52Z drmeister: We all wear big person pants around here. We can wait. :-) 2015-07-05T04:24:10Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-05T04:25:09Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-07-05T04:27:11Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T04:27:14Z drmeister: And really, I'm trying to make up for projecting my anxieties in the past. Take you time and enjoy the time with your family. I have plenty to do and family of my own. 2015-07-05T04:28:06Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-07-05T04:28:58Z drmeister: I think I can get even more speed once I get rid of the function calls that llvm is failing to inline. 2015-07-05T04:29:23Z beach: That sounds good. 2015-07-05T04:30:39Z drmeister: Llvm on OS 2015-07-05T04:31:09Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T04:31:10Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-05T04:31:14Z beach: I am not sure what you mean by "projecting [your] anxieties in the past", but it is probably not important either. 2015-07-05T04:31:27Z drmeister: It's not. 2015-07-05T04:32:35Z drmeister: Everything is fine. I'm really excited about our recent progress. 2015-07-05T04:39:57Z theos: good morgen 2015-07-05T04:42:06Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-05T04:43:38Z beach: drmeister: Yes, it is looking quite good. 2015-07-05T04:43:47Z beach: Hello theos. 2015-07-05T04:48:05Z jlongster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T04:49:33Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-05T04:56:57Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-05T05:06:25Z stevegt_ joined #lisp 2015-07-05T05:08:07Z OxMLR joined #lisp 2015-07-05T05:09:43Z OxMLR quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-05T05:10:16Z OxMLR joined #lisp 2015-07-05T05:13:46Z OxMLR is now known as mlrutherford 2015-07-05T05:15:07Z mlrutherford quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-05T05:15:59Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-05T05:20:13Z mlrutherford is now known as OxMLR 2015-07-05T05:20:30Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-05T05:20:42Z OxMLR is now known as mlrutherford 2015-07-05T05:22:50Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-05T05:23:49Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-05T05:24:41Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-05T05:28:33Z klltkr joined #lisp 2015-07-05T05:30:28Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-05T05:31:58Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-05T05:33:21Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-05T05:39:18Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-05T05:42:01Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-05T05:43:44Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-05T14:05:35Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-05T14:06:49Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-05T14:08:54Z nell is now known as aluchan 2015-07-05T14:11:12Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-05T14:11:28Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-05T14:13:15Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-05T14:21:32Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2015-07-05T14:23:21Z Cr23C6 joined #lisp 2015-07-05T14:24:34Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-05T14:24:40Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-05T14:30:01Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-07-05T14:32:19Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach 2015-07-05T14:34:50Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-05T14:37:01Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-05T14:37:31Z cosmicexplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T14:40:48Z oleo__: hello :) 2015-07-05T14:44:09Z __009__kk joined #lisp 2015-07-05T14:44:23Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-05T14:46:28Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-05T14:46:56Z drmeister: Hello, hi beach 2015-07-05T14:54:07Z |3b|: p_l: yeah, that sounded interesting 2015-07-05T14:59:09Z Cr23C6 left #lisp 2015-07-05T15:02:16Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:03:37Z Octophore joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:04:04Z beach: drmeister: I sent you email. I found the reason for the problem with multiple macro expansions, and I think I fixed it. 2015-07-05T15:04:31Z drmeister: Excellent - I'll give you feedback in a few minutes. 2015-07-05T15:04:36Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-05T15:04:43Z beach: Did you read the email? 2015-07-05T15:04:57Z beach: I suggested that you don't commit to it until you have tested it. 2015-07-05T15:05:32Z beach: ... for the same reason as usual, i.e., I don't have a complete-enough environment for testing here. 2015-07-05T15:05:42Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:05:52Z beach: So I might have introduced some other problem. 2015-07-05T15:06:10Z aluchan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-07-05T15:06:17Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-05T15:06:18Z beach thinks that might already be too late. 2015-07-05T15:06:57Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:08:11Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:08:38Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:10:13Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-05T15:11:02Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:11:41Z theos: the arrow has left the bow 2015-07-05T15:12:10Z beach: Poetic! 2015-07-05T15:12:27Z Shinmera: Just gotta do a matrix style dodge and you'll be fine 2015-07-05T15:15:57Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:16:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T15:16:06Z nell joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:17:45Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:18:11Z nell is now known as aluchan 2015-07-05T15:18:38Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-05T15:20:33Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:25:16Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-05T15:27:55Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-05T15:28:00Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:29:28Z Octophore quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-05T15:30:15Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T15:31:38Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:34:22Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:37:44Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:38:55Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-05T15:42:25Z Octophore joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:48:12Z mea-culp` joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:50:12Z mea-culpa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-05T15:50:18Z Octophore quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-05T15:51:48Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:53:04Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T15:53:44Z drmeister: beach: That did the trick - hang on - info following. 2015-07-05T15:53:53Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-05T15:54:02Z drmeister: I'm compile-filing this: 2015-07-05T15:54:07Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ssk9nOqR/ 2015-07-05T15:54:41Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ggC3Zb2b/ 2015-07-05T15:54:54Z drmeister: EXPAND is printed only twice now. Previously it was 6 times 2015-07-05T15:58:15Z beach: Great! 2015-07-05T15:59:11Z beach: I guess if there is some compile-time evaluation that is not being done, we will know that eventually. 2015-07-05T15:59:25Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-05T15:59:31Z drmeister: Does this correct the other issue with EVAL as well? 2015-07-05T15:59:41Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-05T15:59:46Z beach: I don't know that there is another issue with EVAL. 2015-07-05T15:59:51Z drmeister: Looking for details... 2015-07-05T16:01:49Z drmeister: (cleavir-env:eval '(progn (defmacro #1=#.(gensym)()) (#1#)) nil nil) 2015-07-05T16:01:51Z drmeister: Trying 2015-07-05T16:01:59Z beach: drmeister: One thing that would be interesting to know is whether the latest change influences the compilation time. 2015-07-05T16:04:23Z __009__kk left #lisp 2015-07-05T16:05:43Z drmeister: I'll be able to tell you shortly - I'm wrestling with some problems with symbols being required out of order in cclasp. 2015-07-05T16:06:02Z drmeister: The question above about this: (cleavir-env:eval '(progn (defmacro #1=#.(gensym)()) (#1#)) nil nil) 2015-07-05T16:06:42Z drmeister: Should EVAL process top-level forms as COMPILE-FILE does? reading... 2015-07-05T16:07:18Z beach: They process things differently. 2015-07-05T16:07:35Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:08:32Z flash- joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:09:12Z beach: clhs compile-file 2015-07-05T16:09:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm 2015-07-05T16:10:49Z nell joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:10:55Z nell is now known as alusion 2015-07-05T16:13:19Z drmeister: beach: That form (cleavir-env:eval '(progn (defmacro #1=#.(gensym)()) (#1#)) nil nil) fails in Clasp - I guess because I haven't set cleavir-env:eval to process top level forms properly. 2015-07-05T16:13:43Z beach: I don't know. 2015-07-05T16:13:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T16:14:10Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-05T16:14:17Z beach: If you set *compiler* to 'cl:eval, it should process it correctly. 2015-07-05T16:14:46Z beach: It fails for me too, so it might be another problem. 2015-07-05T16:15:04Z beach: How does your failure manifest itself? 2015-07-05T16:16:15Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:18:52Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:19:36Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-05T16:21:45Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:25:00Z stevegt_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-05T16:25:36Z momo-reina quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-05T16:26:01Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:26:03Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-05T16:26:54Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:27:20Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-05T16:27:32Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:28:09Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:30:16Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-05T16:30:47Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:31:05Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-05T16:31:54Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-05T16:32:40Z beach: drmeister: I need to go cook dinner. I might be back later. 2015-07-05T16:33:57Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:34:51Z drmeister: beach: Talk to you later. 2015-07-05T16:34:54Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-05T16:34:55Z larocca quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-05T16:36:24Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:36:52Z larocca joined #lisp 2015-07-05T16:39:36Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-05T16:40:39Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-07-05T16:54:11Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-07-05T17:02:05Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-05T17:04:39Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: Franz's newsletter 2015-07-05T17:04:47Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-05T17:05:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-05T17:08:12Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-05T17:15:14Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-05T17:17:03Z stevegt_ joined #lisp 2015-07-05T17:22:37Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-05T17:33:03Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-05T17:39:28Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-05T17:40:34Z EDW1304 joined #lisp 2015-07-05T17:49:30Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-05T17:50:38Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T17:51:14Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-05T17:53:35Z streptotrichosis joined #lisp 2015-07-05T17:54:41Z stevegt_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-05T17:54:47Z EDW1304 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-05T17:57:58Z flash- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-05T18:00:03Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T18:01:15Z perpetuum joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:02:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:06:27Z perpetuum quit 2015-07-05T18:07:21Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:15:21Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:16:45Z oleo__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-05T18:18:18Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:21:54Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-05T18:22:10Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T18:22:19Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:24:32Z sircc joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:24:47Z sircc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T18:30:50Z DNoved1 joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:31:28Z zematis joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:31:38Z xirie joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:32:41Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:32:57Z pranavrc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-05T18:33:38Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:35:32Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-05T18:36:31Z zematis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-05T18:37:10Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:37:33Z pjb: Clarisse sera vengée. Nous disons deux fois... 2015-07-05T18:40:18Z fe[nl]ix: ??? 2015-07-05T18:40:39Z pjb: Le facteur s'est endormi. 2015-07-05T18:41:47Z pjb: Le grand blond s'appelle Bill. 2015-07-05T18:43:15Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T18:43:44Z contrapunctus: Weiß jemand, was er gesagt hat? 2015-07-05T18:44:40Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:46:02Z pjb: :-) 2015-07-05T18:46:11Z pjb: Sorry, that was for #lispcafe. 2015-07-05T18:46:13Z zematis joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:46:57Z pjb: But so far, contrapunctus is ahead of the race. 2015-07-05T18:48:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-05T18:48:33Z contrapunctus: :) 2015-07-05T18:49:42Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-05T18:50:24Z s00pcan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-05T18:53:29Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:54:15Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/55d4871bc689e02002fb getting corruption in quicklisp files. 2015-07-05T18:54:41Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-07-05T18:55:09Z Bike: that's not a corrupted file, that's a file not using ascii. i think you need to mess with your locale 2015-07-05T18:56:00Z akkad: odd, osx, default settings 2015-07-05T18:56:08Z pjb: or add #+asdf-unicode :encoding #+asdf-unicode :utf-8 to the system. 2015-07-05T18:56:27Z |3b|: the system being read? 2015-07-05T18:56:40Z pjb: Yes. 2015-07-05T18:57:31Z pjb: Well, no. lack.asd contains a #.(with-open-file that doesn't specify :external-format. This is the bug. 2015-07-05T18:57:42Z |3b|: ah 2015-07-05T18:57:54Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-05T18:57:57Z pjb: probably the other asd in lack do the same… 2015-07-05T19:05:15Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-05T19:05:18Z wglb joined #lisp 2015-07-05T19:12:56Z intinig quit 2015-07-05T19:13:28Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-05T19:13:32Z akkad: thanks 2015-07-05T19:14:02Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-05T19:14:23Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.33 2015-07-05T19:16:45Z xirie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-05T19:17:54Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-05T19:19:10Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-05T19:19:46Z skrue quit (Quit: .) 2015-07-05T19:19:58Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-05T19:21:45Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-05T19:24:03Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-05T19:24:40Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-05T19:24:47Z admg joined #lisp 2015-07-05T19:28:47Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-05T19:30:29Z xirie joined #lisp 2015-07-05T19:33:56Z jackdaniel: is defining print-object specialized on standard-object allowed? like (defmethod print-object ((obj standard-object) stream) …) 2015-07-05T19:34:24Z Bike: no. defining methods on any standard gf specialized on only standard classes isn't allowed. 2015-07-05T19:34:34Z Bike: because maybe the implementation has done so already. 2015-07-05T19:34:57Z jackdaniel: yes it did! and that's why weblocks crashes ecl :| 2015-07-05T19:35:36Z jackdaniel: thanks 2015-07-05T19:37:11Z Bike: 11.1.2.1.2 #19 if you need a citation to complain with 2015-07-05T19:38:36Z jackdaniel: thanks. I have to prevent such behavior as well tough - like rising condition 2015-07-05T19:39:10Z nyef: Package locks? 2015-07-05T19:42:24Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-05T19:42:43Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-05T19:43:40Z ggole quit 2015-07-05T19:46:57Z Bike: are package locks sophisticated enough to find definitions fitting all the criteria? 2015-07-05T19:46:58Z Shinmera: Package locks wouldn't grip on method definitions 2015-07-05T19:47:35Z Shinmera: Unless I'm misunderstanding something about how they work 2015-07-05T19:49:27Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-05T19:53:22Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-05T19:53:45Z lala quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-05T19:57:00Z akkad: Why would the markdown readme file be loaded via quicklisp/lack.asd? READ error during LOAD: :ASCII stream decoding error on # logs:|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34 2015-07-06T07:05:54Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:06:24Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:06:33Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:08:13Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:13:11Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:16:14Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T07:18:33Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:19:53Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T07:20:16Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:20:16Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2015-07-06T07:20:16Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:26:30Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:28:36Z loke: Hello H4ns 2015-07-06T07:30:53Z H4ns: loke: o/ 2015-07-06T07:31:19Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:31:59Z mea-culp` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T07:32:55Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:34:12Z loke: H4ns: Do you know if it's possible to get usocket to talk ipv6 on sbcl? 2015-07-06T07:34:34Z loke: my hunchentoot don't want to listen to ipv6 and that makes me sad 2015-07-06T07:34:51Z H4ns: loke: i think there is a usocket branch that supports ipv6, did you have a look at that yet? 2015-07-06T07:34:57Z loke: (I only have ipv6 connectivity to my external staging server) 2015-07-06T07:35:05Z loke: H4ns: no. I didn't 2015-07-06T07:35:26Z loke: Who is the maintainer of usocket? 2015-07-06T07:35:55Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:36:21Z H4ns: chun tian (binghe) 2015-07-06T07:36:29Z loke: Oh, not on #lisp? 2015-07-06T07:36:37Z H4ns: not to my knowledge 2015-07-06T07:36:47Z H4ns: he's very responsive to emails and github issues, though. 2015-07-06T07:37:06Z loke: OK, thanks. I'll test that. 2015-07-06T07:37:22Z theos: looks like he doesnt like irc though 2015-07-06T07:37:27Z loke: I presume that Hunchentoot will simply work out of the box? 2015-07-06T07:37:35Z loke: (once usocket supports it) 2015-07-06T07:37:38Z H4ns: loke: it should. 2015-07-06T07:37:43Z loke: Cool. Thanks. 2015-07-06T07:41:10Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:42:37Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:43:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-06T07:48:08Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T07:52:18Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:53:58Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-06T07:54:26Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-06T07:56:46Z not_tfl quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-06T08:00:32Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T08:01:33Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:01:36Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T08:07:46Z holycow joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:08:04Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:13:47Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T08:14:56Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T08:19:33Z monod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T08:21:20Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:21:57Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:26:04Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-06T08:27:12Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:28:11Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-06T08:28:32Z xirie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T08:35:11Z shifty779 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T08:40:15Z man213 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:41:36Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T08:47:27Z shifty779 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:47:29Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:47:52Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:48:09Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:48:18Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T08:49:51Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:52:52Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T08:52:56Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-06T08:53:48Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-06T08:53:48Z TMitBee joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:56:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:56:52Z TMitBee: What necessity does SICP satisfy for a beginner wanting to learn to program with Common Lisp? 2015-07-06T08:57:20Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-06T08:57:35Z TMitBee: iow, is it a "must read" text? 2015-07-06T08:59:57Z lieven: not if you want to learn Common Lisp 2015-07-06T09:02:11Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T09:02:20Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T09:03:34Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:04:20Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:04:30Z manfoo7` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-07-06T09:06:06Z theos: TMitBee get "Land of Lisp" or "ANSI Common Lisp" 2015-07-06T09:06:26Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:06:47Z jdz: theos: why those? i'd find those two a bit questionable 2015-07-06T09:06:51Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-06T09:07:22Z dim: Practical Common Lisp is great to attack CL from another PL experience 2015-07-06T09:08:01Z theos: jdz i find those good to start with. couldnt stand PCL for some reason 2015-07-06T09:08:12Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T09:09:45Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:09:52Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-06T09:17:48Z TMitBee: thanks 2015-07-06T09:17:56Z TMitBee quit 2015-07-06T09:18:14Z loz: i saw a good introduction article 2015-07-06T09:18:16Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:18:42Z pranavrc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-06T09:18:44Z loz: which has some advices against scheme and sicp 2015-07-06T09:19:36Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:23:36Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:24:42Z ehu1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T09:25:58Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:27:09Z milosn quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-06T09:28:24Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:28:31Z synchromesh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T09:29:24Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:33:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:36:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T09:39:24Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T09:39:30Z ajtulloch quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-07-06T09:43:08Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:46:27Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:48:38Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:51:35Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-06T09:55:48Z jackdaniel seconds theos pick 2015-07-06T09:56:10Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-07-06T09:56:18Z jackdaniel: or afternoon 2015-07-06T09:56:19Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-06T09:56:50Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T09:57:25Z emlow quit (Quit: emlow) 2015-07-06T09:59:00Z pjb: aeth: the basis of testing, is to control the boundaries. Also, when testing you don't want to overspecify, that is, to test results too precisely. In the case of a GUI, if you wanted to test the whole GUI stack and the video controller and screen, that would imply a camera, and some image matching or even visual recognition. 2015-07-06T09:59:07Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:59:21Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T09:59:53Z pjb: aeth: but if you want to test your own GUI program, and not the GUI framework, OS and hardware, then you should provide to your GUI program a mock API, and control that your program calls the expected entry points. 2015-07-06T10:01:33Z lisper29 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-06T10:01:40Z pjb: aeth: notably, that means that you can check the geometry with all the precision or lack of precision you want. (most users do not specify geometry precisely, but some do). 2015-07-06T10:03:38Z pjb: akkad: check ignore-warning in clhs muffle-warning. 2015-07-06T10:10:43Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-06T10:11:36Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-06T10:14:05Z mvilleneuve quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T10:15:43Z larxy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T10:25:50Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-06T10:26:55Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-06T10:28:13Z jumblerg quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-06T10:29:06Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-06T10:34:40Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T10:36:19Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-06T10:42:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-06T10:46:50Z venu joined #lisp 2015-07-06T10:49:51Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-06T10:54:04Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-06T10:54:41Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-06T10:56:48Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:02:41Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:03:51Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T11:03:52Z Brozo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:07:38Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-06T11:07:55Z skeuomor1 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:09:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-06T11:09:50Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:11:33Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:13:54Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:17:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T11:17:52Z larion joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:19:09Z newbie joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:19:32Z newbie is now known as Guest39466 2015-07-06T11:19:46Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T11:21:08Z venu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-06T11:26:32Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:27:47Z Xach: pjb: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-05/failure-report/com.informatimago.html#com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.test still problematic 2015-07-06T11:35:18Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:36:36Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:41:41Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:44:37Z kcj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T11:45:50Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:46:18Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T11:47:04Z jamesf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T11:50:14Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:51:07Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-07-06T11:52:35Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-06T11:57:46Z jef_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T11:59:01Z Guest39466 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:02:07Z Guest39466 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:03:00Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:06:25Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:08:46Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:09:58Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:11:16Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:12:27Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:13:04Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:13:13Z Brozo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:16:37Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:17:52Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:17:59Z pjb: let me see. 2015-07-06T12:21:04Z Xach: if you load with quickload, be sure to use :verbose t 2015-07-06T12:21:23Z NhanH quit 2015-07-06T12:21:36Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:22:17Z loz: #lisp, what do you think about http://ribosome.ch ? 2015-07-06T12:22:52Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: have you thought of turning those checks into something more automatable ? 2015-07-06T12:22:58Z fe[nl]ix: a QA service 2015-07-06T12:23:16Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: I've thought about it. Did you have something specific in mind? 2015-07-06T12:24:20Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:25:04Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: those failure reports are very useful, I'd like to be able to trigger a check from a github commit hook 2015-07-06T12:25:26Z fe[nl]ix: then have your system compile all reverse deps in the latest release and notify me of breaks 2015-07-06T12:25:45Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:25:47Z dim: well can't do do that already with travis-ci? 2015-07-06T12:26:11Z fe[nl]ix: I'd have to write code to handle all cases, and Xach already has it 2015-07-06T12:26:36Z kp666 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-06T12:26:41Z dim: I don't realize at all what is this handling you're talking about, so ok 2015-07-06T12:27:02Z dim: I was thinking (ql:quickload :your-system :verbose t) + some filtering to trigger build failure in a travis-ci hook 2015-07-06T12:27:04Z fe[nl]ix: I'd pay for something like this 2015-07-06T12:27:19Z dim: I guess the "some filtering" parts is what you're thinking about and the part Xach has already done? 2015-07-06T12:27:41Z fe[nl]ix: first, I said all reverse deps 2015-07-06T12:27:52Z fe[nl]ix: so, e.g. everything that depends on cffi 2015-07-06T12:28:15Z nyef: "everything that depends on cffi" is a fairly large everything. 2015-07-06T12:28:22Z fe[nl]ix: doing that in a single travis session would probably overflow the time limit 2015-07-06T12:28:29Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T12:28:39Z fe[nl]ix: nyef: it's just CPU cycles 2015-07-06T12:28:52Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:29:09Z nyef: And disk space, presuming that you have the files on-hand already. 2015-07-06T12:29:44Z nyef: But yes, it's "just resources". 2015-07-06T12:29:46Z dim: fe[nl]ix: oh, reverse deps, ok, misread, sorry 2015-07-06T12:30:52Z segmond joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:31:27Z cojy quit 2015-07-06T12:31:40Z cojy joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:35:11Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:35:34Z duggiefresh is now known as Guest64664 2015-07-06T12:35:55Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T12:36:10Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:38:01Z Guest39466 quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-06T12:39:06Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:39:34Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:40:11Z nalik891 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T12:41:34Z azr_src quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-06T12:41:37Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:41:45Z azr_src joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:42:22Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:43:17Z victor_lowther quit 2015-07-06T12:43:27Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:45:59Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:46:27Z splittist quit 2015-07-06T12:46:37Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:46:47Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:47:22Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:49:03Z caoliver quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-06T12:50:28Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:51:08Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:51:31Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:51:53Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-06T12:52:11Z kami: Hello #lisp 2015-07-06T12:54:09Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T12:54:33Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:01:01Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:01:19Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-06T13:01:34Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:03:22Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-06T13:11:53Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:12:55Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T13:14:02Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:14:06Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:18:30Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:18:36Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:21:30Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:23:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T13:23:43Z endou___________ quit 2015-07-06T13:24:02Z endou___________ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:24:10Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:24:10Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-06T13:24:10Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:24:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:25:44Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: right now the process is intertwined. i want to more strongly decouple project updates from build testing, and make it easier to roll back individual updates, and make it possible (and easy) project sets that emerge as dists if testing is successful. 2015-07-06T13:25:49Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T13:26:02Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: i think decoupling updates more will help set up more flexible builds in the future 2015-07-06T13:26:50Z bb010g quit 2015-07-06T13:26:51Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-06T13:27:03Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:27:09Z Xach: I also need to get on the scriptable setup bandwagon and make it possible to install even the hairy prerequisites on a scratch system. my build server is too much a precious snowflake. 2015-07-06T13:28:12Z ninja-maid-robot quit (Quit: I have irrefutable proof that D < 0. It follows trivially from 2D > 3D, which is obviously true.) 2015-07-06T13:28:26Z Xach: of course, it would be somewhat straightforward to at least see if the current stuff builds ok without too many changes 2015-07-06T13:28:38Z ninja-maid-robot joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:28:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-06T13:29:08Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:29:22Z IPmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-06T13:29:45Z dim: Xach: is there a ql function to list reverse dependencies, ala apt-cache rdepends? 2015-07-06T13:30:44Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T13:31:43Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:32:18Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:32:47Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:33:42Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:37:12Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:37:28Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-06T13:37:35Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T13:37:35Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T13:37:40Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:38:46Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:40:31Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T13:40:55Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T13:41:50Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:43:03Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:46:22Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:48:33Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T13:50:16Z phadthai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T13:51:15Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-06T13:52:38Z Xach: dim: (ql:who-depends-on "system-name") 2015-07-06T13:53:23Z pie_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T13:53:32Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:01:27Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:03:11Z ninja-maid-robot quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-06T14:08:10Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:09:01Z dim: excellent, thx 2015-07-06T14:09:50Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-06T14:12:18Z skeuomor1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-06T14:12:24Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:16:26Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T14:17:11Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T14:17:13Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:18:56Z skeuomor1 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:19:57Z Xach: pjb: what's the scoop? 2015-07-06T14:20:58Z oleo: hello 2015-07-06T14:21:16Z oleo: :( 2015-07-06T14:23:25Z larion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T14:23:32Z larion joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:27:57Z theos: hi 2015-07-06T14:29:55Z arbol joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:30:12Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:30:37Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:32:00Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:32:44Z pjb: Xach: testing on sbcl. I'll tell you soon. 2015-07-06T14:32:48Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:35:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:36:13Z Vityok: can somebody please recommend a good manual/howto or sources about doing bit-wise logical operations in Common Lisp 2015-07-06T14:36:54Z Vityok: I've been doing Shift-OR algorithm implementation and it looks like implementation is not optimal as SBCL/CCL wrap 2015-07-06T14:37:04Z Xach: Vityok: it supports everything you might want to do. are you looking for function names? 2015-07-06T14:37:26Z Vityok: lognot/logior/etc. into additional calls that make it underperform compared to the theoretical estimates 2015-07-06T14:37:44Z Xach: Vityok: What do you mean by "wrap"? 2015-07-06T14:37:48Z nyef: Are you working in word-sized or smaller chunks with proper type declarations? 2015-07-06T14:38:25Z Vityok: I would like to start with the word-sized ops as Shift-OR is advertised to be working fast with word-sized integers 2015-07-06T14:38:58Z Vityok: for example: (lognot 0) returns -1, making it conflict with (unsigned-byte _) 2015-07-06T14:39:22Z nyef: Ah, use LOGAND to clamp the results to the appropriate width. 2015-07-06T14:39:22Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T14:39:33Z Xach: Vityok: you can mask it or extract it to get the patterns you want. 2015-07-06T14:39:56Z Vityok: canonical implementations in C/Java/etc. work with (unsigned-byte 32) or similar, but IIRC some Lisp implementations don't provide real 32-bit integers as one bit is used to tag it for GC 2015-07-06T14:40:10Z H4ns: the key technique to avoid calls and type checks is to properly declare all variables and arguments 2015-07-06T14:40:28Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-06T14:40:31Z p_l: Vityok: most lisps use tagged fixnums, yes 2015-07-06T14:40:46Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:40:51Z Xach: SBCL will additionally do full word operations if you use logand/ldb to restrict the result sizes. 2015-07-06T14:41:27Z atsidi joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:41:34Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:42:14Z Vityok: so probably there is some kind of a HOWTO or some sources that could be used as an example for good practices? 2015-07-06T14:42:40Z Xach: Vityok: I don't think so. I think it is just vaguely shared knowledge. 2015-07-06T14:43:08Z Xach: Like posting some code, saying "how can this be improved?" or similar 2015-07-06T14:43:24Z Vityok: ie. there is https://github.com/pkhuong/bitap-regexp by Paul-Virak Khuong 2015-07-06T14:43:24Z Vityok: 2015-07-06T14:44:00Z H4ns: this may be helpful: http://recurial.com/programming/efficient-bit-scaning-in-lisp/ 2015-07-06T14:44:11Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-06T14:44:17Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-06T14:44:31Z Vityok: the sources in question are: https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match/src/d2ba36b45592a1d32d45c98c955a022485fb0822/src/shift-or.lisp?at=devel 2015-07-06T14:44:41Z Vityok: H4ns: thanks, will take a look 2015-07-06T14:45:31Z Vityok: or Rabin-Karp also suffers tremendously because I couldn't implement efficient bit-wise operations: https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match/src/a084ae973cf91c128c70fa053f12a4d0bd01d4be/src/rabin-karp.lisp?at=default 2015-07-06T14:46:05Z fe[nl]ix: what bit-wise operations ? 2015-07-06T14:46:23Z H4ns: Vityok: also this: http://blog.30dor.com/2014/03/21/performance-and-types-in-lisp/ 2015-07-06T14:47:04Z Vityok: fe[nl]ix: probably poor wording, I mean logical bit operations on unsigned integers (shift, or, not, etc.) 2015-07-06T14:47:15Z Vityok: like ash, lognot, logior, logand, etc 2015-07-06T14:47:19Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T14:47:26Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:47:53Z Vityok: H4ns: thanks for sharing it! 2015-07-06T14:48:23Z Vityok: I wish that the code that Mike Vollmer wrote was available as a Quicklisp library 2015-07-06T14:48:33Z Vityok: because I am not very good at x86 assembly 2015-07-06T14:49:05Z H4ns: Vityok: just looking for calls and counting the number of instructions will get you a long way. 2015-07-06T14:49:20Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T14:50:28Z Vityok: H4ns: so far bit-based algorithms (Rabin-Karp, Shift-OR) are not my primary focus as the Boyer-Moore-Horspool seems to provide excellent performance 2015-07-06T14:51:06Z H4ns: Vityok: let me offer you a blank stare 2015-07-06T14:51:20Z Vityok: but just out of a curiousity I would like to check if its possible to improve performance of the RK or S-OR impelementations as it might eventually prove useful in other cases 2015-07-06T14:52:10Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T14:52:18Z Vityok: BTW, if anyone is interested in looking for robust search of substrings, take a look at the CL-STRING-MATCH library 2015-07-06T14:52:32Z jocuman joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:52:38Z Vityok: Boyer-Moore-Horspool implementation offers decent speed-up on SBCL 2015-07-06T14:52:46Z |3b| wouldn't consider it 'robust' if it has random declarations about string types in the public API 2015-07-06T14:53:18Z |3b|: not all strings are SIMPLE-STRINGS, and lying to the compiler about it will cause things to randomly break for users 2015-07-06T14:53:51Z Xach: check-type would be safer 2015-07-06T14:54:07Z skeuomor1 is now known as skeuomorf 2015-07-06T14:54:19Z |3b|: right, or typecase with duplicated implementation so it still works on normal strings if not quite as fast 2015-07-06T14:54:30Z skeuomorf quit (Changing host) 2015-07-06T14:54:30Z skeuomorf joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:55:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T14:55:22Z |3b|: (duplicated implementation since at least SBCL can compile better code when it knows the specific type, so you can have a fast version and a generic version, even if the code is identical) 2015-07-06T14:56:03Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:56:29Z |3b| doesn't mean actually duplicating the text of the code though, factor it out with a macrolet or inlined function, maybe local function 2015-07-06T14:58:29Z Vityok: thanks for your advice 2015-07-06T14:58:59Z synchromesh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T14:59:14Z Vityok: I will certainly look into this issue as well 2015-07-06T14:59:21Z gz quit (Quit: ) 2015-07-06T14:59:21Z gz quit 2015-07-06T14:59:31Z gz joined #lisp 2015-07-06T14:59:44Z Vityok: feel free to open new tickets if you find more problems 2015-07-06T14:59:47Z |3b|: if that sor code relies on CHAR-CODEs being less than 256, you should probably verify that at runtime 2015-07-06T15:00:15Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:00:19Z mrcom quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-06T15:00:27Z alms_clozure quit 2015-07-06T15:00:27Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-06T15:00:35Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:01:00Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:01:37Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-07-06T15:01:37Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:04:26Z ofosos joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:04:31Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T15:05:34Z ofosos: Hi, I'd like to bundle a binary file with my asdf system to be used in testing said system. Anybody got an idea, how the test cases may find said file? 2015-07-06T15:06:17Z oGMo: ofosos: specify it as :static-file and use asdf "look up component" functions to get the path? 2015-07-06T15:07:26Z Shinmera: Alternatively, there's asdf:system-relative-pathname 2015-07-06T15:08:07Z ofosos: Oh, great :) 2015-07-06T15:08:09Z Shinmera: And alternatively you can do it without ASDF altogether, by using *compile-file-pathname*/*load-pathname* and merging that to get the proper relative pathname. 2015-07-06T15:08:23Z oGMo: https://github.com/rpav/laconic/blob/master/src/asdf.lisp#L3 <- the function i use, feel free to rip it off of course 2015-07-06T15:08:24Z Shinmera: *merging that with a relative path 2015-07-06T15:08:34Z oGMo: those too 2015-07-06T15:09:10Z fe[nl]ix: ofosos: don't put it in the ASDF system, :static-file is utterly useless 2015-07-06T15:09:14Z oGMo: i think newer asdf actually basically has a function as per above as well 2015-07-06T15:09:30Z oGMo: fe[nl]ix: it works pretty well IME :p 2015-07-06T15:09:32Z Shinmera: ofosos: See http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html 2015-07-06T15:09:53Z Shinmera: Esp. the first comment by stassats 2015-07-06T15:11:44Z Xach: pjb: thanks. if your project can be fixed to build with sbcl, i am ready for a new quicklisp release. 2015-07-06T15:11:53Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:12:44Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:14:32Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-06T15:16:30Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:17:02Z ramkrsna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T15:17:37Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-06T15:18:40Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:18:47Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T15:19:22Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T15:19:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:19:53Z pjb: Xach: Seems to be good, only remains a few style warnings. I'm commiting and pushing. 2015-07-06T15:19:57Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-06T15:20:14Z Xach: pjb: thank you 2015-07-06T15:22:36Z ninja-maid-robot joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:22:48Z pjb: Xach: done, you can fetch it. 2015-07-06T15:23:04Z Xach tries with super excitement 2015-07-06T15:23:26Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-06T15:23:26Z Shinmera: So I'm guessing we're closed to the next QL release? 2015-07-06T15:23:59Z Xach: I'm quite open to it, actually 2015-07-06T15:24:12Z Shinmera: I can't type today it seems 2015-07-06T15:24:21Z Shinmera: *close, I meant. 2015-07-06T15:24:23Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-06T15:24:39Z Xach: The older I get, the more I type phoenetically. Maybe my ratio of speaking to typing has gone up. 2015-07-06T15:24:46Z Xach: Shinmera: yes, very close 2015-07-06T15:25:33Z Shinmera: Great! Now I just have to hope that qt-libs actually works on everyone else's systems. 2015-07-06T15:25:41Z pjb: Xach: I've got a asd file that contains systems with errors (for testing). Would there be a way to indicate quicklisp that it should not try to load it? 2015-07-06T15:26:19Z Xach: pjb: i can do that, but it may not be worth the trouble. 2015-07-06T15:26:39Z pjb: Right. And I could add my own #+pjb-testing and push it when I need it. 2015-07-06T15:29:41Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T15:31:46Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:31:46Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:31:51Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:32:15Z man213 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-06T15:32:17Z rpg: Do I understand SLIME correctly that it's supposed to use ^L as a prefix key for load commands? 2015-07-06T15:32:40Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:32:49Z pjb: I fail to see how. 2015-07-06T15:32:59Z pjb: Try C-h m to see the key bindings in your slime mode. 2015-07-06T15:33:05Z rpg: No, sorry. I misunderstood the code: C^c-C^l 2015-07-06T15:33:27Z rpg: seems odd there's no menu entry for this. 2015-07-06T15:33:37Z pjb: You've got the notation all wrong. It should be: C-c C-l 2015-07-06T15:33:41Z Shinmera: What kind of notation is that? 2015-07-06T15:33:57Z pjb: emacs. 2015-07-06T15:34:02Z pjb: C-c C-l is bound to slime-load-file 2015-07-06T15:34:04Z Shinmera: pjb: I know, I was asking rpg. 2015-07-06T15:34:32Z rpg: Shinmera: absent-minded! 2015-07-06T15:34:35Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-06T15:34:54Z rpg: I think I was striving for ^c-^l and got a little carried away! 2015-07-06T15:35:53Z pjb: Let's keep the notation straight, it's C-c C-l. 2015-07-06T15:37:58Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T15:38:53Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-06T15:40:55Z ninja-maid-robot is now known as magical-imouto 2015-07-06T15:45:32Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:45:56Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:45:59Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T15:53:22Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-06T15:56:48Z arbol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T15:56:48Z goglosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T15:57:49Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:00:59Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T16:02:39Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T16:02:41Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:02:45Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T16:06:18Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:10:55Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:15:10Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-06T16:16:45Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T16:17:02Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:19:02Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:21:35Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T16:23:07Z badkins_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T16:23:24Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:27:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T16:29:03Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:29:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:31:49Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:32:11Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T16:32:28Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:35:02Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T16:40:01Z larocca quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-06T16:41:04Z larocca joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:41:38Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:45:03Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:46:14Z dim: so if anyone wants to implement SSL in pure CL but thinks that maybe a single protocol version or cypher might be enough for kicks, just see https://tessera.wikimedia.org/dashboards/6/tls 2015-07-06T16:46:30Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:46:37Z dim: 82.45% of https trafic of wikimedia uses TLSv1.2 2015-07-06T16:46:46Z dim: a pure CL implementation of that might go a long way ;-) 2015-07-06T16:46:51Z williamyao quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T16:47:10Z stevegt_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-06T16:47:26Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:47:34Z pjb: You could even use acl2 to prove it and make that a nice student project. 2015-07-06T16:47:39Z dim: cyphers ecdhe-rsa-aes128-gcm-sha256 and ecdhe-rsa-aes128-sha256 are 57.75% + 24.07% too, add ecdhe-rsa-aes128-sha for another 13% if you want to go fancy 2015-07-06T16:47:53Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T16:48:08Z dim: I really want someone to see those facts and react like "oh so it's a week end's project, let me have a crack at it" 2015-07-06T16:48:17Z dim: and that person won't be me unfortunately 2015-07-06T16:48:38Z Shinmera: I'm usually crazy like that, but I got too much to worry about already. 2015-07-06T16:48:46Z dim: please? ;-) 2015-07-06T16:49:19Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T16:49:20Z dim: there's a clean room ocaml implementation of TLS to get started from 2015-07-06T16:49:24Z dim: just saying 2015-07-06T16:50:39Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:50:42Z tkd quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-06T16:50:42Z Zotan quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-06T16:50:42Z drdo quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-06T16:50:42Z Subfusc quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-06T16:50:42Z rj-code quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-06T16:50:42Z scymtym: the ocaml implementation i heard of has parts written in C to prevent timing attacks 2015-07-06T16:50:48Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:51:01Z drdo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:51:03Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:51:12Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:51:16Z scymtym: may be a different one, of course 2015-07-06T16:51:37Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:52:31Z foom: If you're going to write a new TLS stack, I'd recommend using an existing library for the crypto primitives. 2015-07-06T16:54:29Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:54:33Z rj-code joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:54:44Z dim: https://github.com/mirleft/ocaml-tls is the one I'm thinking of scymtym 2015-07-06T16:54:47Z fe[nl]ix: dim: thanks for the link 2015-07-06T16:54:59Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T16:55:42Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:55:50Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-06T16:57:23Z drjeats joined #lisp 2015-07-06T16:58:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:00:19Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T17:01:41Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:02:45Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T17:04:09Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:07:12Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-06T17:07:29Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-06T17:08:03Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:08:26Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T17:08:52Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:09:16Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-06T17:10:20Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:11:57Z drjeats left #lisp 2015-07-06T17:14:45Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-06T17:17:07Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:17:29Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-06T17:20:12Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:26:16Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T17:27:32Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:28:09Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:30:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T17:33:04Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T17:34:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:34:42Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:38:08Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:38:12Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T17:38:47Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:40:40Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:42:37Z Quadrescence quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-06T17:42:44Z thedud quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T17:48:46Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:48:48Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:52:37Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:54:51Z EWD1305 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:56:57Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-06T17:59:15Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T17:59:42Z thedud quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-06T18:00:13Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T18:03:05Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:03:18Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:08:03Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:08:33Z ofosos quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-06T18:11:28Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:11:36Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-06T18:15:35Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T18:15:52Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-06T18:16:10Z klltkr joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:20:06Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:20:08Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-06T18:23:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:23:29Z EWD1305 is now known as BWV988 2015-07-06T18:27:23Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:32:44Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:34:53Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:35:47Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T18:36:18Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:36:53Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:38:41Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-06T18:39:27Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:40:05Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:41:43Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:43:58Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:44:02Z malbertife quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T18:44:42Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:49:20Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-06T18:52:02Z pranavrc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-06T18:52:17Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T18:52:29Z brpocock: some time ago, some folks on here discussing how “git” seems to “unnecessarily” respond to patches with whitespace changes and all by showing many lines changed? Came across this just now: man gitattributes / /Generating diff text / tell Git to use an external command to generate the diff … 2015-07-06T18:52:48Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-06T18:53:30Z foom: Hm? The builtin diff in git supports -w and -b fine... 2015-07-06T18:53:30Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-06T18:53:36Z brpocock: ie, it's possible that an enhanced READ could perform tree-wise diffs. (Preserving comments and reader macros) 2015-07-06T18:53:46Z foom: Oh, you want it to know lisp too. 2015-07-06T18:54:23Z foom: Yea, you could totally do that if you were so inclined. 2015-07-06T18:54:45Z Bike: oh, how do you get git do that -w -b stuff, it looks useful maybe 2015-07-06T18:54:57Z foom: with -b 2015-07-06T18:54:58Z foom: or -w 2015-07-06T18:55:13Z Bike: passed to what? 2015-07-06T18:55:25Z foom: anything that prints a diff 2015-07-06T18:57:42Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-06T19:01:08Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(So I get my 72-column view, and you can have your 160-column view, and git never knows what hit it). 2015-07-06T19:17:50Z brpocock: But a wise diff'er would complement that, such that we could run arbitrary reformatters in our editors without fear of angering the vcs 2015-07-06T19:18:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:18:55Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T19:19:18Z akkad: hmmm no ecl love in trivial-core-dump 2015-07-06T19:23:54Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T19:24:56Z synchromesh left #lisp 2015-07-06T19:26:08Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:26:09Z ynchromeshs joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:26:55Z fe[nl]ix: in .gitattributes: *.lisp diff=lisp 2015-07-06T19:27:28Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T19:27:43Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:27:46Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:28:53Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T19:33:15Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-06T19:36:52Z azr_src quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-06T19:37:02Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:40:47Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:44:52Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-06T19:44:59Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T19:45:17Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-06T19:46:20Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:47:10Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:47:26Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:51:01Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:52:05Z atsidi quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-06T19:52:10Z Beluki joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:53:26Z EDW1305 left #lisp 2015-07-06T19:53:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:53:42Z EDW1305 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:57:19Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T19:58:09Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T19:58:44Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T19:59:17Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:00:29Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:01:03Z akkad: how do you secure a swank socket on a multiuser system? 2015-07-06T20:02:05Z Xach: akkad: you can have it reference a file that only your user can read as a kind of cookie 2015-07-06T20:02:45Z akkad: oh? interesting 2015-07-06T20:03:47Z antoszka: Xach: does that make swank create a server on a unix socket rather than a TCP socket? 2015-07-06T20:03:58Z Xach: antoszka: I don't think so. 2015-07-06T20:05:40Z pjb: Using such a socket or named pipe would be a nice patch to swank for such situations. Alternatively, implement TLS in CL, and integrating it with swank, with some key or password management would do. 2015-07-06T20:05:56Z pjb: Ask dim about TLS in CL. 2015-07-06T20:06:12Z pjb: if you need some motivation. 2015-07-06T20:06:34Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T20:06:42Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:08:17Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:08:26Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:09:48Z akkad: pair it with a client cert. 2015-07-06T20:11:06Z joast joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:11:06Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:12:12Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:12:13Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T20:13:42Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-06T20:13:52Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-06T20:18:52Z attila_lendvai: good luck getting that patch through helmut... :) 2015-07-06T20:21:35Z PuercoPop: attila_lendvai: have you tried sly? 2015-07-06T20:22:51Z attila_lendvai: PuercoPop: I've tried to get many things into slime... but no, not this specific change. it's just my experience with helmut's extreme conservatism and his focus on his own needs as a slime user and maintainer. 2015-07-06T20:24:09Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:24:09Z antoszka: That's why all the new features can/should go into SLY :) 2015-07-06T20:24:23Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-06T20:24:36Z antoszka: I have a feeling the community is rather open to fixes/enhancements. 2015-07-06T20:24:42Z PuercoPop: attila_lendvai: I read you lamenting that slime wasn't fork in the same thread so I wanted to point you towards sly. 2015-07-06T20:25:50Z PuercoPop: (his maintainer is helpful & friendly ime) 2015-07-06T20:25:52Z PuercoPop: *forked 2015-07-06T20:29:11Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:31:02Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T20:31:29Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T20:32:15Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-06T20:35:08Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:35:18Z attila_lendvai: PuercoPop: ah, ok. (I've misread sly to srly) 2015-07-06T20:37:48Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-06T20:37:59Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:38:27Z attila_lendvai makes a note to rebase and send his slime patches to sly and then go on using sly instead of slime 2015-07-06T20:39:16Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:43:38Z dkcl: Who do I have to have sex with in order for sly to support XEmacs? 2015-07-06T20:44:57Z antoszka: with <>? 2015-07-06T20:45:32Z Xach: dkcl: that seems unlikely to work 2015-07-06T20:45:34Z PuercoPop: dkcl: you can open an issue on its tracket, but it seems unlikely as Sly is targeting Emacs 24+ 2015-07-06T20:45:48Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-06T20:45:56Z dkcl: Oh well 2015-07-06T20:45:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-06T20:46:51Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:47:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:47:33Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-06T20:49:09Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:50:49Z EDW1305 left #lisp 2015-07-06T20:52:06Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T20:52:59Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T20:53:19Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-06T20:54:11Z subopt: Does CL have something like the Emacs load-path var? 2015-07-06T20:55:36Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-07-06T20:55:36Z brpocock: ASDF kinda does that bit, typically. 2015-07-06T20:56:06Z antoszka: Common Lisp by itself does not, but yeah, ASDF does. 2015-07-06T20:56:32Z subopt: thanks 2015-07-06T20:57:05Z antoszka: subopt: In what context do you need that? 2015-07-06T20:57:40Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:57:42Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:57:46Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-06T20:58:39Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T20:59:28Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-06T21:00:32Z subopt: antoszka: Just working through an interactive tutorial. Thought my lisp thought it was running somewhere other than where i'd assumed. Found my mistake w/o needing something like load-path though. 2015-07-06T21:00:47Z antoszka: Right. 2015-07-06T21:01:04Z Shinmera: For that you most likely want to look at *default-pathname-defaults* 2015-07-06T21:01:18Z subopt: Shinmera: thanks 2015-07-06T21:01:28Z antoszka: There's also *default-pathane-defaults* on the lower level 2015-07-06T21:01:30Z antoszka: ah, lol 2015-07-06T21:01:34Z antoszka: Shinmera was faster 2015-07-06T21:01:45Z Davidbrcz quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-06T21:01:46Z antoszka: an I typoed :( 2015-07-06T21:01:51Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I have the source location configured in .sbclrc 2015-07-06T21:19:39Z hydan: latest sbcl from git and slime from Quicklisp 2015-07-06T21:19:46Z walter|r_ joined #lisp 2015-07-06T21:20:35Z antoszka: hm... sounds like slime/sbcl got out of sync somewhat 2015-07-06T21:20:52Z antoszka: why not just run the latest stable release of sbcl? 2015-07-06T21:22:10Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-06T21:22:10Z wemeetagain quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T21:22:26Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T21:23:08Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-06T21:23:31Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-07-06T21:23:58Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-06T21:25:50Z badkins quit 2015-07-06T21:26:15Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T21:32:11Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-06T21:32:32Z monod quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2015-07-06T21:32:58Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-06T21:33:34Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T21:35:21Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-07-06T21:35:29Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T21:37:35Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-07-06T21:40:11Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-06T21:40:45Z Guest64664 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-06T21:41:02Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-06T21:45:07Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-06T21:51:28Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-06T21:52:40Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-07-06T21:52:53Z gendl: Hi, in Bordeaux-threads, what would be a portable way of doing 2015-07-06T21:53:00Z gendl: (slot-value proc ‘mp:process-name) 2015-07-06T21:53:37Z gendl: apparently the process object itself is still an implementation-specific one 2015-07-06T21:53:54Z _death: bt:thread-name 2015-07-06T21:54:02Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-06T21:54:20Z gendl: aha, perfect, thanks. 2015-07-06T21:56:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-06T21:57:14Z gendl: somehow skipped right over that in the API documentation. 2015-07-06T21:57:50Z _death: ;) 2015-07-06T21:59:13Z fe[nl]ix: gendl: how did you type a LEFT_SINGLE_QUOTATION_MARK ? 2015-07-06T22:01:58Z gendl: single-quote ‘key ‘on ‘my ‘keyboard. 2015-07-06T22:02:04Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-06T22:02:09Z gendl: but i’m not sure why it’s coming out as left-single-quote 2015-07-06T22:02:39Z gendl: it should be a normal single-quote. But I understand that character is kind of messed up in Unicode. 2015-07-06T22:02:42Z brpocock: On my keyboard it's either/both of Compose ' < or Greek+( [ISO_Level5_Shift + (], but I'm betting it's your IRC mode 2015-07-06T22:03:02Z gendl: i’m using Colloquy on Mac, with a Thinkpad bluetooth keyboard. 2015-07-06T22:08:06Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-06T22:08:47Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T01:10:54Z copycat1 is now known as copycat 2015-07-07T01:11:29Z copycat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T01:11:36Z copycat1 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:11:45Z copycat1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T01:11:53Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:16:47Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T01:18:02Z nyef: ... Am I reading this right? If I want to have a class accept an initarg that is not associated with a slot, the defined-correct way to make it valid is to define (preferably :AFTER) methods on ALLOCATE-INSTANCE, INITIALIZE-INSTANCE, REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE, SHARED-INITIALIZE, UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS and UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-DIFFERENT-CLASS? 2015-07-07T01:18:35Z nyef: (Per CLHS 7.1.2, as reinforced by CLHS 7.3.1.) 2015-07-07T01:18:39Z Bike: can't you just do shared-initialize and have the rest ignore them? 2015-07-07T01:20:10Z nyef: Well, that's the thing. At least some of these functions are specified &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS, but there's a apparently a separate process that validates the set of keywords provided against the set of keywords bound for by the methods defined on the functions. 2015-07-07T01:20:36Z nyef: And it's done on a per-function basis. 2015-07-07T01:20:47Z nyef: That is, if I'm reading this part of CLHS right. 2015-07-07T01:21:26Z Bike: wow, this is really confusing. 2015-07-07T01:21:42Z nyef: Right. Also stupid-seeming, somehow. 2015-07-07T01:21:55Z Brozo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:21:59Z nyef: And then there's something later on that conflicts, but is very possibly not in a normative section. 2015-07-07T01:22:30Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-07T01:23:24Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:23:57Z not_tfl quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-07T01:26:54Z nyef: Hrm. Looks like it might be "define a method on ANY of these functions, and the initargs become legit for this situation", with SHARED-INITIALIZE being on the list for all of the situations. 2015-07-07T01:27:56Z copycat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T01:27:57Z copycat1 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:29:23Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:29:39Z Bike: practically speaking i have to doubt whether any implementations really do much... 2015-07-07T01:30:00Z copycat1 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-07T01:30:39Z nyef: Do you get errors when you supply a bogus initarg to MAKE-INSTANCE? Obviously SOMETHING happens. 2015-07-07T01:30:43Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:30:49Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:32:09Z Beluki quit (Quit: Beluki) 2015-07-07T01:32:36Z nikki93 quit 2015-07-07T01:32:45Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-07T01:33:01Z nyef: This is actually new ground for me in terms of using CLOS for anything beyond the basics. 2015-07-07T01:33:12Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:33:19Z mlrutherford quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T01:33:43Z Bike: i think that's in make instance, at least on sbcl 2015-07-07T01:34:29Z Bike: (defclass foo () ()) (shared-initialize (make-instance 'foo) nil :bar 'baz) works, at least, and yes i know that's technically not allowed 2015-07-07T01:35:16Z Bike: though it's kind of hard to tell because ctors are scary. 2015-07-07T01:36:36Z Bike: but on ccl it's signaled from initialize instance. bummer. 2015-07-07T01:36:42Z nyef: Yeah, I feel like I'm on the precipice of some really involved bit of research into precisely how the CLOS stuff all fits together. 2015-07-07T01:38:39Z Bike: in ccl it's checked in ccl::check-initargs in l1-clos-boot.lisp which is... difficult to understand, but does involve all those functions you listed 2015-07-07T01:38:54Z Bike: actually no, not reinitialize or update. ok then. 2015-07-07T01:38:59Z _2sexp joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:39:44Z Bike: ...ok, looks like it takes a list of functions, but ignores all but the first it's called with, which in the normal make-instance path is just initialize-instance. 2015-07-07T01:39:53Z Bike: wait no. 2015-07-07T01:40:20Z nyef: For the MAKE-INSTANCE path, you have ALLOCATE-INSTANCE, INITIALIZE-INSTANCE, and SHARED-INITIALIZE. 2015-07-07T01:40:23Z Bike: okay, i kind of hate this. 2015-07-07T01:40:48Z Bike: ccl::compute-initargs-vector is apparently where the horrible things in 7.1.2 happen. 2015-07-07T01:41:00Z nyef: The primary method for INITIALIZE-INSTANCE calls SHARED-INITIALIZE. 2015-07-07T01:41:02Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T01:41:28Z nyef: The contract for MAKE-INSTANCE is that somewhere an error is signalled if a bogus initarg is supplied. 2015-07-07T01:41:29Z Bike: and it literally goes through each function's methods and looks for aok-p or rest. 2015-07-07T01:41:51Z Bike: also contains #+no(...), which is p. good code 2015-07-07T01:42:07Z nyef: The contract for ALLOCATE-INSTANCE requires that the initargs already have been checked for validity. 2015-07-07T01:42:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:43:22Z Bike: ok so i guess what you want to do is define methods on all those functions with aok-p that probably just call call-next-method. argh. 2015-07-07T01:43:26Z nyef: The primary method for REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE is defined to do the validity checking and then punt to SHARED-INITIALIZE, and this corresponds to the second case in 7.1.2. 2015-07-07T01:43:58Z Arathnim joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:44:50Z nyef: Hrm. &A-O-K on one of these methods kills initarg validation? What? 2015-07-07T01:45:33Z Bike: well it kills key validation in general, right. 2015-07-07T01:45:54Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:46:07Z nyef: Hrm... Okay, now I need to look into the semantics of &KEY arguments on generic functions. 2015-07-07T01:46:29Z nyef: ... I might actually have half a clue as to what's going on by the time beach shows up. 2015-07-07T01:46:35Z aap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T01:46:42Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T01:47:17Z aap joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:47:36Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:51:02Z not_tfl quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-07T01:51:14Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:53:56Z nyef: Okay, I think this mostly hangs together. The trick is 7.6.4, which is the definition for lambda-list congruency, and that SHARED-INITIALIZE (and presumably the others, I haven't checked yet) are specified &REST initargs &KEY &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS, which means that the GF doesn't do any validity checking on the keyword arguments, and that none of the methods need to mention any specific keyword arguments, nor do they need to mention 2015-07-07T01:53:56Z nyef: &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS. 2015-07-07T01:54:17Z Bike: the others all have aok-p, yeah. 2015-07-07T01:55:00Z Bike: really that's why it seems weird, 7.1.2 seems to be saying that aok-p actually does matter on methods, but it usually wouldn't if the gf has aok-p. 2015-07-07T01:55:22Z zRecursive left #lisp 2015-07-07T01:55:45Z nyef: Right, right... And I'm not sure that I fully understand the interaction of &A-O-K with GFs. 2015-07-07T01:56:15Z Bike: "If &allow-other-keys is mentioned in the lambda list of any applicable method or of the generic function, any keyword arguments may be mentioned in the call to the generic function. " and " A method is invoked as if the keyword argument pair whose name is :allow-other-keys and whose value is true were supplied, though no such argument pair will be passed. " is basically it, i think. 2015-07-07T01:56:34Z Bike: so the initializes are explicitly different from that. 2015-07-07T01:56:36Z nyef: Right, and the following point as well. 2015-07-07T01:57:47Z nyef: Although here's one for point 5. If &A-O-K isn't defined at the GF level, and does not appear on all of the methods, it only kicks in if one of the methods it appears on is "applicable". 2015-07-07T01:58:18Z nyef: ... Which I presume means "is selected by the arguments supplied"? 2015-07-07T01:58:24Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-07T01:58:57Z Bike: oh, christ, you're right. 2015-07-07T01:59:22Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-07T01:59:24Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:01:04Z Brozo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T02:04:55Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:05:21Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-07T02:07:04Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T02:07:56Z josereyes53 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:08:38Z josereyes53 left #lisp 2015-07-07T02:08:54Z nyef: Also looks like defining a class, creating a handful of instances, and then defining a SHARED-INITIALIZE method that applies to any further uses of MAKE-INSTANCE should work. 2015-07-07T02:13:10Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:14:27Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:15:57Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-07T02:22:25Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:23:39Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T02:25:29Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:26:07Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:31:29Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T02:34:22Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:37:38Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:37:38Z zacharias quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T02:37:44Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:37:46Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-07T02:38:16Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-07T02:38:24Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:40:58Z pocket quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T02:41:48Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T02:42:43Z b3nutz3r joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:43:01Z b3nutz3r quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-07T02:43:25Z dvnmk joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:43:26Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T02:44:21Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-07T02:45:24Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T02:46:26Z hegel: does anyone know if the snap4 code was released? 2015-07-07T02:46:34Z hegel: this was for symbolics open genera 2015-07-07T02:46:44Z hegel: the lisp machine 2015-07-07T02:48:43Z hegel: http://wush.net/~opengenera/ this shows up on a google search 2015-07-07T02:49:37Z hegel: and when I do a readelf on the "snap5" there I can see there are significant changes 2015-07-07T02:50:12Z hegel: but it still doesn't work with recent versions of X (>~ 2013) 2015-07-07T02:50:42Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T02:51:34Z hegel: and I can't find who's working on this one, doesn't seem to be brad@heeltoe.com 2015-07-07T02:52:22Z dvnmk quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-07T02:52:51Z nyef: beach: It looks like the next major chunk of functionality that I need to define for NQ-CLIM is actually the input subsystem. 2015-07-07T02:53:57Z nyef: Not to the point of being able to run the input editor, but possibly to the point of being able to use STREAM-READ-GESTURE. 2015-07-07T02:55:05Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T02:55:05Z beach: nyef: That sounds plausible. 2015-07-07T02:56:27Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T02:58:09Z nyef: So I'm thinking to continue working on some of the small stuff that I already have defined over the course of this week, while I plan out what needs doing for the input handling, get that at least somewhat sorted out, flip back to the frame management and layout stuff, then tackle the text stuff (text style mappings, text metrics, actually drawing text on a medium). 2015-07-07T02:58:44Z nyef: And that should be enough of the underlying system actually built out that I can start dealing with output-records and the input editor. 2015-07-07T02:59:57Z beach: The beginning of input handling should not be hard to plan. 2015-07-07T03:00:01Z nyef: I think if I'm working on a simple input/output stream, even without presentations, by the end of the month, it'll be fairly good progress. 2015-07-07T03:00:30Z skeuomorf quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T03:00:34Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-07T03:02:40Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-07-07T03:04:06Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T03:04:49Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-07T03:05:00Z stevegt_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T03:10:23Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T03:19:22Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-07T03:20:12Z walter|r_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T03:23:01Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-07T03:29:21Z beach: drmeister: I merged the two conflicting :AROUND methods. 2015-07-07T03:29:43Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-07T03:29:45Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-07T03:43:15Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T03:44:31Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T03:45:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T03:50:17Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T03:51:06Z drmeister: beach: Wonderful - thank you. I'm not sure what was wrong but I haven't tried to build ASDF yet. 2015-07-07T03:51:25Z drmeister: I will pull your changes and proceed to build ASDF 2015-07-07T03:51:30Z drmeister: cclasp built find 2015-07-07T03:51:30Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T03:52:07Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T03:53:49Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-07T03:54:16Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-07T03:55:55Z drmeister: fine 2015-07-07T03:56:44Z drmeister: And it does simple fixnum arithmetic fast. It's 5-7x faster than Python. 2015-07-07T04:02:03Z beach: Good. 2015-07-07T04:02:51Z nyef: ... Python, or that-other-python? 2015-07-07T04:02:54Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T04:03:19Z Bike: the really slow python 2015-07-07T04:03:22Z nyef: Ah. 2015-07-07T04:03:29Z nyef: Okay, that-other-python. 2015-07-07T04:03:39Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-07T04:03:52Z drmeister: The 'other' python. 2015-07-07T04:06:46Z s00pcan quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-07T04:07:36Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-07T04:08:03Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T04:16:44Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-07T04:18:09Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-07T04:25:48Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-07T04:25:54Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T04:26:06Z Arathnim quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-07T04:29:30Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-07T04:29:34Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T04:32:23Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 1.3.15 2015-07-07T04:32:44Z loke: hello drm 2015-07-07T04:32:55Z loke: and nyef 2015-07-07T04:33:13Z copycat1 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T04:33:24Z pranavrc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-07T04:35:32Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T04:36:09Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/0Rl8Jvd1/ 2015-07-07T04:36:35Z drmeister: beach: EVAL-WHEN doesn't appear to be EVAL-WHEN'ing properly 2015-07-07T04:37:13Z drmeister: I traced CONVERT-SPECIAL and CCLASP-EVAL to see what (EVAL-WHEN (:compile-toplevel...) ...) was evaluating in a COMPILE-FILE 2015-07-07T04:37:24Z drmeister: Here is what I'm COMPILE-FILE'ing 2015-07-07T04:37:38Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/32YrjCBo/ 2015-07-07T04:38:59Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-07T04:39:07Z beach: Did you pull after my merging the two :AROUND methods? 2015-07-07T04:39:13Z drmeister: On line 19 of the first past is where CONVERT-SPECIAL specialized on EVAL-WHEN is being invoked with the form. 2015-07-07T04:39:29Z drmeister: Oh - wait. 2015-07-07T04:39:39Z drmeister: I pulled - but I didn't recompile all of cclasp. 2015-07-07T04:40:10Z drmeister: Right - sorry, I have two ways of running Cleavir and the one that is failing was compiled through the day. 2015-07-07T04:40:18Z drmeister: I'll get back to you tomorrow once I recompile it. 2015-07-07T04:40:21Z beach: OK. 2015-07-07T04:40:27Z drmeister: Sorry about that. 2015-07-07T04:40:32Z beach: No problem. 2015-07-07T04:42:59Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-07T04:44:08Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-07T04:45:10Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-07T04:49:11Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-07T04:51:24Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T04:51:26Z copycat1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T04:55:56Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T04:58:27Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-07T04:58:41Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T04:59:48Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:02:10Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T05:03:24Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-07T05:04:31Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T05:05:59Z sharkz_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T05:08:40Z Fleurety quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-07T05:11:10Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:14:00Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:14:54Z DNoved1 quit (Quit: ()) 2015-07-07T05:15:04Z tmtwd_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:17:43Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-07T05:21:04Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:21:15Z mlrutherford: anyone ever mess with Shen language? 2015-07-07T05:21:27Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T05:21:52Z f3lp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T05:22:13Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:22:47Z mlrutherford quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-07T05:26:04Z alusion joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:27:44Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-07-07T05:27:56Z jackdaniel never messed with Shen language 2015-07-07T05:29:04Z tmtwd_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T05:29:04Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T05:33:28Z alusion quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-07T05:36:44Z RussT1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T05:37:01Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. 2015-07-07T05:38:51Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T05:41:39Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:45:43Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:46:56Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T05:48:06Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:48:39Z emaczen: How can I uniquely set the name of the variable of generated, nested lambda lists? 2015-07-07T05:49:12Z emaczen: Inside a lambda-list I can't do something like: (lambda ((gensym-push lst))) 2015-07-07T05:49:32Z jackdaniel: `(lambda (,(gensym)) ...) 2015-07-07T05:50:02Z emaczen: Oops, I forgot to say that I want to store all gensyms 2015-07-07T05:50:05Z sharkz_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:50:47Z emaczen: In a list 2015-07-07T05:51:21Z jackdaniel: (defmacro my-lambda-duh-duh (vars) (let ((lst (make-gensyms n))) `(lambda (,@lst) ...)) 2015-07-07T05:51:24Z jackdaniel: ) 2015-07-07T05:51:36Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-07T05:51:37Z jackdaniel: or setf, push, nconc, whatever 2015-07-07T05:52:09Z jackdaniel: macro should contain body, not vars obv 2015-07-07T05:55:39Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-07T05:57:31Z emaczen: jackdaniel: Thanks, I should be able to merge this into what I am doing. 2015-07-07T05:58:07Z jackdaniel: yw :) 2015-07-07T05:58:26Z jackdaniel: don't forget about duh-duh 2015-07-07T05:58:35Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T05:59:38Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:02:10Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-07T06:03:47Z kdas_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-07T06:04:30Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T06:06:54Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:14:23Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-07T06:21:00Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:25:17Z emaczen quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-07T06:29:00Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:31:39Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:34:15Z Adlai joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:40:18Z sharkz_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-07T06:40:45Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:40:46Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T06:41:18Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-07T06:41:43Z keito` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:42:02Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-07T06:44:39Z kdas_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T06:46:51Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-07T06:47:42Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:47:46Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:50:49Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:52:33Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T06:52:35Z sharkz_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:53:26Z em joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:55:34Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:56:58Z frkout quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T06:57:22Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-07T06:59:43Z ronh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T06:59:49Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T07:02:45Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:04:58Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:06:18Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:06:18Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2015-07-07T07:06:18Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:07:35Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:08:12Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T07:14:26Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:16:20Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:17:55Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T07:20:25Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T07:20:38Z hocwp joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:20:39Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:22:32Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:22:43Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-07T07:27:26Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:29:00Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:29:41Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-07-07T07:30:29Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T07:35:53Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-07T11:04:00Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-07T11:06:22Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T11:07:14Z jackdaniel: is it permissible to use bsd licensed code in project declared "public domain" ? 2015-07-07T11:07:36Z p_l: jackdaniel: afaik it should be okay, but IANAL 2015-07-07T11:08:10Z jackdaniel: thanks 2015-07-07T11:11:07Z fe[nl]ix: kind of 2015-07-07T11:11:08Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T11:11:36Z fe[nl]ix: it's labeling a project as "public domain" that's almost certainly not legal 2015-07-07T11:11:52Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: depends on wording 2015-07-07T11:12:07Z jackdaniel: hm, not my projects, just submitting pull request 2015-07-07T11:12:27Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/pmai/md5/pull/1 2015-07-07T11:12:31Z p_l: while many people claim it's not, what they actually do is mixing up different law systems 2015-07-07T11:13:30Z jackdaniel is away 2015-07-07T11:14:27Z fe[nl]ix: all analyses I've read conclude that neither in the US, nor West-European countries does copyright law allow relinquishing copyright 2015-07-07T11:15:24Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: did it specify what they included under "copyright"? Because for example in Poland, you have two separate "rights", of which right to copy (literal "copyright") is relinquishable 2015-07-07T11:15:59Z p_l: the other is "authorship", meaning you can't be stripped of the fact you're the author of the piece 2015-07-07T11:17:23Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-07T11:17:26Z p_l: with "public domain" defined as works that have "material" rights relinquished or expired, but not "author" rights 2015-07-07T11:18:06Z p_l: (tl;dr, "someone" got the bright idea of reading the whole copyright act when preparing for an exam in HS. Was strangely enlightening, both in good and bad ways) 2015-07-07T11:18:36Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha 2015-07-07T11:20:40Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T11:20:46Z p_l: good ways: Reverse Engineering a guaranteed right of everyone that can't be taken away by EULA; Bad ways: copyright lengths due to WTO; wtf ways: DRM provisions written in a way that breaks logic 2015-07-07T11:21:46Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T11:22:25Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-07T11:22:33Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-07-07T11:23:23Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T11:23:38Z Shinmera: Ain't law just fun 2015-07-07T11:24:39Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T11:25:49Z Xach is reminded that philg wanted to write computer-aided litigation tools in CL 2015-07-07T11:26:52Z p_l: Shinmera: the wtf bit is that I'm unsure if it wasn't a clever ruse to protect DRM tools without actually protecting them - because it specifies that only "succesful" DRM mechanisms are protected, which suggests that broken ones are free game... 2015-07-07T11:27:44Z Shinmera: p_l: That's a problem I'm noticing with a lot of strict things: They try to be strict, but fail to properly define the terminology, making things really strange and inconsistent in the end. 2015-07-07T11:27:52Z theos: Xach an AI in CL that finds loopholes in the law? sounds interesting 2015-07-07T11:27:53Z p_l: sorry, "effective" 2015-07-07T11:28:16Z p_l: and in the sense of efficiency 2015-07-07T11:28:47Z p_l: theos: an AI that automates patent search in a way that combats bad patents would be a great thing 2015-07-07T11:29:14Z p_l once read a patent from post-2000 that patented RLE as this miraculous new compression method that will speed up internet 2015-07-07T11:30:27Z Shinmera: Interesting tidbit: While Swiss law has a default copyright duration of 70 years, there's a special clause for software that reduces it to 50 years. Still too long imo, but either way interesting. 2015-07-07T11:31:01Z p_l: Shinmera: IIRC, thanks to WTO treaty, we got the material rights counted from *death of author* instead of publication date 2015-07-07T11:31:38Z Shinmera: Rrright. I forgot about that. Now I'm not sure which it is. The only thing I am sure about is that it's specifically less for software than everything else. 2015-07-07T11:32:23Z p_l: Shinmera: yeah, but still counted from author's death, which is pretty much against the whole idea of copyright 2015-07-07T11:33:00Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T11:36:54Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-07-07T11:42:16Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-07T11:42:22Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T11:42:38Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-07T11:43:56Z theos: if someone else cant figure out a better code even after 50 years of the author's death, then software patents are very profitable 2015-07-07T11:46:04Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T11:46:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-07T11:46:59Z p_l: theos: software patents are usually about self-evident code to increase the suable set 2015-07-07T11:47:58Z p_l: for example patenting something considered easy enough to be solved without preparation in coding interview (abovementioned RLE) 2015-07-07T11:49:11Z p_l: or on things that in many countries are considered just math and isn't patentable, but because of USA it ends up unsued worldwide 2015-07-07T11:49:16Z p_l: like due to now-expired patents, most JPEG files are on average 25% bigger than it could be without change in quality, because someone held a patent on algorithmic coding 2015-07-07T11:50:16Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-07T11:50:50Z theos: p_l i am aware of such (mal)practices. there should be a CL software to kill such claims 2015-07-07T11:52:22Z theos: a software to determine if the patent will halt progress. i think most patents halt progress though 2015-07-07T11:53:17Z p_l: theos: it used to be that patents helped progress because they included the documentation to replicate the "invention", thus showing people what was achieved. 2015-07-07T11:53:46Z hlavaty: so they should include source code? brilliant:-) 2015-07-07T11:54:01Z p_l: anyway, right now I would kill just for easy and quick to use GUI toolkit that would merge some level of CLIM stuff with, let's say, QT 2015-07-07T11:54:37Z p_l: hlavaty: not necessarily source code, but many patents were required to contain enough technical description to replicate the patented creation 2015-07-07T11:54:48Z Shinmera: p_l: What exactly would you want from CLIM in Qt? 2015-07-07T11:55:42Z hlavaty: didnt lichteblau work on clim+qt for his editor fork? 2015-07-07T11:55:57Z p_l: Shinmera: some of the presentation stuff (not everything), (accept) and such. Also, Listener. Kinda more like "bunch of premade widgets specific to Lisp", I guess. 2015-07-07T11:56:09Z Shinmera: p_l: Hmm. 2015-07-07T11:56:33Z p_l: or rather, a "lispish framework on top of QT" 2015-07-07T11:56:46Z p_l: no time to give for such work right now -_- 2015-07-07T11:56:56Z hlavaty: ffi gui are lisp dead end 2015-07-07T11:57:20Z Shinmera: You'll FFI in some form at some point 2015-07-07T11:57:22Z p_l: hlavaty: any kind of GUI these days will involve heavy FFI, no matter what 2015-07-07T11:57:27Z p_l: even if you go straight to hardware 2015-07-07T11:57:36Z hlavaty: no 2015-07-07T11:57:44Z p_l: (because the GPUs are essentially complete specialized computers that could compare with CM-1) 2015-07-07T11:57:58Z Shinmera: p_l: Qtools goes half way to where you want I guess. I'll look into those CLIM things you mentioned and see what I can do when I have time (after August) 2015-07-07T11:58:28Z p_l: Shinmera: have you played with OpenGenera? Or AutoCAD? Some of the stuff from it might explain what I've been thinking of 2015-07-07T11:58:43Z p_l is a bit surprised that AutoCAD technically has very... lispish interface in places 2015-07-07T11:58:52Z Shinmera: p_l: No, but I'll read the CLIM spec, something I wanted to do for a long time anyway. 2015-07-07T11:59:06Z Shinmera: p_l: Well there is AutoLisp, so 2015-07-07T11:59:39Z hlavaty: autocad was in lisp 2015-07-07T12:00:21Z p_l: hlavaty: afaik it was never in lisp, but used their own AutoLisp (a very archaic dialect) for scripting 2015-07-07T12:00:31Z p_l: (kinda my first meeting with Lisp) 2015-07-07T12:00:41Z Shinmera: AutoLisp is still in use from what I know 2015-07-07T12:00:55Z p_l: Shinmera: it's unkillable, despite AutoDesk's attempts 2015-07-07T12:01:25Z Shinmera: Heh 2015-07-07T12:02:03Z quux left #lisp 2015-07-07T12:03:09Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T12:03:44Z p_l: they tried at some point by introducing either VBScript as scripting approach directly, or implemented WSH support (the latter would be much more interesting, because it would allow scripting from let's say ECL) 2015-07-07T12:09:18Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T12:12:55Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:13:26Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:14:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T12:14:21Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:16:15Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T12:16:38Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-07T12:23:01Z shum joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:23:12Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T12:24:15Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:24:38Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:26:10Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:27:24Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T12:28:47Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T12:31:49Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T12:32:59Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:33:34Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:34:28Z shum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-07T12:34:54Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:38:13Z pyon is now known as magical-imouto 2015-07-07T12:43:27Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:44:32Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:47:43Z dvnmk joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:49:00Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T12:50:19Z schjetne: Speaking of copyright and licenses, what does Franz mean by "Lisp only offers one choice, which is to link the Library into an executable at build time" in their preamble to the LGPL? 2015-07-07T12:50:26Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:50:53Z schjetne: Especially since the ability to load code at runtime is part of the spec 2015-07-07T12:51:42Z kami: Hello #lisp 2015-07-07T12:53:37Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-07T12:55:13Z byroniczero quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-07T12:55:20Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:55:34Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-07T12:55:44Z lisper29 is now known as Guest58105 2015-07-07T12:56:14Z byroniczero joined #lisp 2015-07-07T12:56:55Z theos: hey kami 2015-07-07T12:58:21Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:03:16Z someone quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T13:03:48Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-07T13:04:50Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:05:35Z someon joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:05:41Z p_l: schjetne: it's because LGPL is a bit specific to how runtime linkers work in typical C-based environment vs. CL 2015-07-07T13:07:31Z dvnmk quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Glad Oracle hasn't laid claim to OpenJVM under that reasoning 2015-07-07T13:29:11Z pjb: schjetne: it's more a problem for the copyright owner issuing the license than for the user. 2015-07-07T13:29:30Z pjb: dlowe: that would make an interesting lawsuit. 2015-07-07T13:29:47Z dlowe: I don't think anyone has tried the "software translation" angle 2015-07-07T13:29:48Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T13:30:16Z dlowe: doesn't mean it couldn't happen, of course 2015-07-07T13:30:19Z schjetne: Version 3 of the license seem to resolve the problems from C-centrism (Section 3 can of course be ignored) 2015-07-07T13:30:23Z pjb: dlowe: probably because few programmers have read the copyright law :-) 2015-07-07T13:30:36Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:31:25Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-07T13:31:44Z dlowe: pjb: I think your legal reasoning wouldn't hold up in the US. Copyright here would apply to the source code and binary, not the functionality, even if the functionality was identical. 2015-07-07T13:32:20Z dlowe: A translation of the source code would definitely be a derived work 2015-07-07T13:32:22Z schjetne: The main problem might be that 'executable' isn't defined. 2015-07-07T13:32:33Z pjb: I'm sure it would, given that judges already equate source and binary for this. 2015-07-07T13:33:21Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:33:26Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T13:33:41Z pjb: For example, I'm set to take the C sources of GNU emacs and translate them to Common Lisp, as much as possible mechanically, manually otherwise. I want to obtain a CL source that provides the same bug-for-bug functionalities as the C sources. You cannot escape that this will be a derived work, and if I distribute it, it will have to be under the GPL3 like GNU emacs. 2015-07-07T13:33:53Z schjetne: But I'm sure a fasl or saved image file could be reasonably considered an 'executable' 2015-07-07T13:33:54Z dlowe: pjb: agreed. 2015-07-07T13:34:24Z pjb: schjetne: source is executable, with the right processor = compiler+machine (virtual or not). 2015-07-07T13:34:44Z pjb: theorically and legally there's no difference. 2015-07-07T13:34:46Z dlowe: schjetne: it can get pretty hairy if you try to pin it down. That's why we have legal systems in the first place 2015-07-07T13:34:48Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:37:16Z schjetne: Anyway, it seems the LGPLv3 resolves the problem with C-centrism, without compromising the protection of the user. 2015-07-07T13:37:27Z prphp joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:38:21Z schjetne: It's not really good for anything if the user can't load a modified version of the library. 2015-07-07T13:40:54Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:41:30Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:41:54Z duggiefresh is now known as Guest80357 2015-07-07T13:41:58Z Guest80357 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T13:42:41Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T13:43:03Z Zhivago: You can do a cleanroom decoupling. 2015-07-07T13:43:21Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:43:32Z Zhivago: Have one team generate a spec by examining A, and then another team implement the spec without examining A. 2015-07-07T13:43:59Z schjetne: Zhivago: I don't follow 2015-07-07T13:44:08Z Zhivago: It breaks the derivation. 2015-07-07T13:44:25Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T13:44:29Z Zhivago: The spec produced by observing A is not derived from the form of A, but from its function. 2015-07-07T13:44:48Z pjb: Zhivago: that doesn't prevent against patent, and I'm not sure it would proctect you against derived work accusations anyways. You could try to say that if you get the same results, it's because it's obvious and trivial. 2015-07-07T13:44:52Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:44:56Z Zhivago: The implementation produced that satisfies that spec without derivation from A is likewise non-derived. 2015-07-07T13:45:12Z Zhivago: Patent isn't about derivation, so that's a separate dimension. 2015-07-07T13:45:18Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:45:39Z p_l: pjb: it's the trick to fulfill the inane copyright in USA 2015-07-07T13:45:47Z p_l: in many places, you do not need clean-room 2015-07-07T13:45:57Z Zhivago: pjb: You need clear documentation of the process, etc -- cleanroom work is extremely expensive. 2015-07-07T13:46:20Z schjetne: Zhivago: yeah, I prefer people just honour the LGPL, that's better for everyone 2015-07-07T13:46:45Z schjetne: And I don't intend to include the Franz exceptions either. 2015-07-07T13:46:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:48:26Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-07T13:48:37Z schjetne: There is something I wonder about the ECL license as well. ECL is under the GNU Library General Public License version 2 or later. But 2 is the latest by that name, so I'm unsure if it can be distributed under the terms of the LGPLv2.1+ 2015-07-07T13:48:59Z schjetne: *the last by that name 2015-07-07T13:49:35Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-07T13:50:20Z Xach: pjb: bad system with cycles! 2015-07-07T13:50:25Z schjetne: Consequently this applies to clasp as well 2015-07-07T13:51:16Z pjb: Xach: Yes, on purpose. Now it has a #+testing in git. 2015-07-07T13:51:58Z Guest58105 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-07T13:54:06Z jasom: pjb: I also think it is dubious to claim that clisp is a derived work of readline, but RMS claimed that at one point. 2015-07-07T13:54:47Z pjb: Agreed. 2015-07-07T13:56:16Z schjetne: jasom: linking method notwithstanding? 2015-07-07T13:56:30Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T13:57:15Z jasom: schjetne: indeed. I doubt that an optional dependency could ever prohibit you from distributing your softweare under whatever license you so choose (though obviously you must obey the license of any software you distribue *with* it) 2015-07-07T13:57:43Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T13:58:13Z jasom: The obvious absurd example would be if someone made a plugin for your software that uses GPLed libraries; that clearly doesn't affect your copyrights. 2015-07-07T14:00:15Z schjetne: That doesn't seem to be the issue with CLISP, though. 2015-07-07T14:00:52Z schjetne: A program that can potentially include readline but doesn't obviously isn't a derived work of readline, and doesn't become one until you put the two together. 2015-07-07T14:00:58Z jasom: You could argue that shipping software with a "just plug in " part encourages users to violate their license to the GPL software, except for the fact that, as far as I can tell, it doesn't violate the license to link software you don't distribute with GPLed software. 2015-07-07T14:01:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:01:52Z jasom: readline is no longer a good example, since there is an API compatible BSD licensed library for that now. 2015-07-07T14:03:08Z H4ns: there is violating the terms of a license and then there is violating the spirit of a license. given that, it is best to either completely avoid the gpl or avoid non-gpl software. all that talk about compatibility is really just nitpickery. 2015-07-07T14:03:10Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:03:51Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:03:55Z jasom: I think the argument that RMS was making is that shipping the software that way showed an intent to circumvent the license of readline; given that non-negotiable contracts tend to rule against the author, that might be a hard sell, but we don't know because no judge has ruled on this yet. 2015-07-07T14:04:18Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:04:34Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:04:36Z larion joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:04:45Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:05:01Z schjetne: NMAP has a very strict interpretation: https://svn.nmap.org/nmap/COPYING 2015-07-07T14:05:15Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:05:19Z jasom: H4ns: yes, anytime you violate the spirit of a license you are playing with fire, even if it's clear that you will probably win at trial. 2015-07-07T14:05:23Z schjetne: Even parsing output is considered a derived work 2015-07-07T14:05:29Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-07T14:05:46Z H4ns: jasom: you're not playing with fire, really, you're just being an ass :) 2015-07-07T14:06:24Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:06:33Z skeuomorf quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:06:38Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:06:46Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-07T14:06:48Z H4ns: jasom: and, actually, an ass only in the definition of those who believe in ownership of rights to software. 2015-07-07T14:08:08Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:08:11Z jasom: H4ns: I was speaking purely in terms of legal liability; though there is a large overlap between being an ass and being liable for damages. 2015-07-07T14:08:37Z H4ns: heh 2015-07-07T14:08:51Z jasom: of course there's also a large overlap between being an ass and suing for damages. 2015-07-07T14:09:49Z schjetne: H4ns: or those who believe software is for everyone and use copyright law to help with that. 2015-07-07T14:10:09Z Vityok: what is the proper approach to writing robust "generalized" code in Lisp? 2015-07-07T14:10:19Z Vityok: akin to a C++ template or Java generics 2015-07-07T14:10:20Z dlowe: program well 2015-07-07T14:10:31Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:10:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:10:42Z jasom: Vityok: you mean parametric polymorphism? 2015-07-07T14:10:43Z pjb: Do not call functions (libraries) that expect specific types. 2015-07-07T14:10:51Z dlowe: oh, that. What pjb said 2015-07-07T14:11:07Z Vityok: ok, here is the source I've got and want to improve: 2015-07-07T14:11:08Z pjb: For example, some libraries expect simple arrays for no reason. 2015-07-07T14:11:17Z pjb: lisppaste 2015-07-07T14:11:24Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:11:26Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:11:35Z Vityok: https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match/src/a084ae973cf91c128c70fa053f12a4d0bd01d4be/src/boyer-moore-horspool.lisp?at=default 2015-07-07T14:11:47Z jasom: pjb: For example, some libraries expect simple arrays for performance reasons, because sbcl is an order of magnitude slower when manipulating non-simple arrays 2015-07-07T14:11:59Z Guest77697 is now known as `micro 2015-07-07T14:12:07Z pjb: Then use an implementation where using non-simple arrays is not so slow! 2015-07-07T14:12:29Z Vityok: based on yesterday's criticism I see how I can add typechecks to ensure that the generated functions expecting simple-string handle a string gracefully 2015-07-07T14:12:43Z jasom: pjb: or provide a public API that converts the types for you. 2015-07-07T14:12:49Z pjb: Vityok: well first the name. string-match. No why restrict yourself to strings? vector-match would be better, but the best would be sequence-match. 2015-07-07T14:13:23Z pjb: Vityok: so the defaults for key and test would be identity and eql. 2015-07-07T14:14:00Z pacon2 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:14:02Z Vityok: well, it started with strings, so the name is kind of a part of its legacy 2015-07-07T14:14:11Z williamyao: pjb: Boyer-Moore-Horspool doesn't seem like it would work very well if the set of possible keys was infinite 2015-07-07T14:14:13Z pjb: Vityok: for an example, check replace-subseq. 2015-07-07T14:14:30Z pjb: williamyao: it can be a finite set of symbols or of integers or of whatever. 2015-07-07T14:14:38Z pjb: Vityok: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq 2015-07-07T14:15:11Z williamyao: That's true. 2015-07-07T14:15:14Z jasom: williamyao: you could replace the array with a hash-table, and then the default value on lookup would be the length of your needle 2015-07-07T14:15:17Z Vityok: pjb: thanks, cause I've thought you are saying about replace and subuseq implementations in different Lisps 2015-07-07T14:15:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:15:45Z skeuomorf joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:15:51Z pacon2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T14:16:01Z pjb: Vityok: well, subseq and replace are generic functions too in CL, so they would also be good examples. 2015-07-07T14:16:13Z Vityok: williamyao: it doesn't work very well even if the set of keys is a finite bound the the char-code-limit 2015-07-07T14:16:19Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:16:29Z pjb: In general, use MAP instead of MAPCAR or LOOP (:across or :in ?), and use the function in the sequence chapter of clhs. 2015-07-07T14:16:50Z jasom: pjb: technically they are *not* defined to be generic-functions by the standard 2015-07-07T14:16:52Z Vityok: pjb: but the point was to make the code as robust as possible 2015-07-07T14:16:54Z pjb: Notice that most CL implementations currently have char-code-limit = 1114112. 2015-07-07T14:16:56Z pacon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:17:29Z Vityok: it looks like by narrowing accepted types it is possible to achieve a better degree of optimization in SBCL 2015-07-07T14:18:00Z trn joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:18:04Z pjb: or worse, depending. 2015-07-07T14:18:21Z jasom: Vityok: by narrowing accepted types you can sometimes get better performance, and by widening accepted types you get more broadly useful code. 2015-07-07T14:18:28Z Vityok: so far that code works much faster than the standard search 2015-07-07T14:18:44Z jasom: Vityok: do you want it to be faster, or more generic? 2015-07-07T14:18:55Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:19:18Z Vityok: jasom: so that was the point: sources there are a kind of a template that can be used to generate implementations for specific data types 2015-07-07T14:19:30Z Vityok: but it is a bit ... not very pretty 2015-07-07T14:19:30Z jasom: Also, for a small number of types, you can get better performance by defining a function with an etypecase that dispatches to your type-specialized implementations. 2015-07-07T14:20:00Z Vityok: but then I will have to essentially duplicate sources with only very slight changes 2015-07-07T14:20:05Z p_l: btw, anyone looked at possible mapping between OpenCL and *lisp-like system? 2015-07-07T14:20:25Z pjb: Vityok: but with different types sbcl could generate more specialized and optimized code. 2015-07-07T14:20:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:21:11Z pjb: Vityok: for example, if your input strings are base-string, it may be good to do a special loop for them with base-char, since that will be 8-bit, instead of string and character that will be 32-bit. 2015-07-07T14:21:25Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:21:46Z Vityok: yep, indeed, but the problem is how to avoid code duplication in an elegant way 2015-07-07T14:22:27Z pjb: Write a macro to generate the different variants from the same source. 2015-07-07T14:22:46Z Vityok: I was able to do this by using a "giant" macro that takes given "keys", "data types" ,etc and generates specialized functions 2015-07-07T14:22:58Z Vityok: but I was wondering if there is a more "elegant" solution 2015-07-07T14:23:25Z dlowe: fast, small, generic. pick two. 2015-07-07T14:23:47Z Vityok: since CL exists for a lot of years already, probably people have found some approach to deal with this problem 2015-07-07T14:24:17Z pjb: Write generic code, that saves your time. 2015-07-07T14:24:24Z dlowe: I think the usual approach is "don't worry so much about execution speed" 2015-07-07T14:24:33Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:25:09Z Vityok: yeah... only when the difference is minutes vs seconds or an order of magnitude for a substring "search" operation 2015-07-07T14:25:54Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:26:24Z pjb: Vityok: for example, between the time the SpaceX rocket started to have a problem (detected leak), and the time the human decided to explode it, it was more than 6 seconds. So it doesn't matter if your program detects it in 10 ns or 100 ms, what would matter, is that your program would be able to take the right decision, to separate stages immediately, and to pull the good stage safely away before the explosion of the defective stage, 2015-07-07T14:26:24Z pjb: even if the orbit will be wrong. It could be corrected later or adapted otherwise. 2015-07-07T14:26:50Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-07T14:26:54Z Vityok: my app parses other application logs 2015-07-07T14:26:56Z pjb: What's really dumb, IMO, is to blow the whole rocket up for a little leak. 2015-07-07T14:27:18Z pjb: Vityok: same thing: you will get wrong logs. 2015-07-07T14:27:41Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:27:55Z dlowe: pjb: even if a little leak is all you detect, it could be an iceberg tip. 2015-07-07T14:27:57Z pjb: Vityok: then, from generic algorithms, you can get fast algorithms by partial execution. 2015-07-07T14:28:14Z Vityok: and there are about 100 keys for differnt problems 2015-07-07T14:29:17Z Vityok: and there millions of lines in a typical logs bundle 2015-07-07T14:29:39Z pjb: You definitely do not want to work on strings. 2015-07-07T14:29:51Z pjb: Instead, read the logs as binary files, and work on bytes. 2015-07-07T14:29:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:30:54Z Vityok: well... yes... https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-faster-input/wiki/Benchmark%20results 2015-07-07T14:31:04Z Vityok: I even did a benchmark for this 2015-07-07T14:31:58Z Vityok: the problem is that I also have a number of regular expressions in my keyset 2015-07-07T14:31:59Z Shinmera: A single TIME is not going to cut it. 2015-07-07T14:33:47Z pjb: Vityok: cf. the COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.ASCII package. 2015-07-07T14:33:57Z Vityok: thanks 2015-07-07T14:34:11Z Vityok: will be looking for the hinted sources 2015-07-07T14:34:59Z Vityok: but I still would like to make this library as useful for others as possible 2015-07-07T14:35:01Z pjb: functions ascii-string ascii-bytes ascii-format bytes= bytes/= bytes< etc. 2015-07-07T14:35:17Z Vityok: :-) cool 2015-07-07T14:36:00Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:36:13Z Vityok: I also explored with ASCII-only implementations https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match/src/a084ae973cf91c128c70fa053f12a4d0bd01d4be/contrib/ascii-strings.lisp?at=default 2015-07-07T14:36:57Z pjb: Yes, this way. If you want it fast. 2015-07-07T14:37:48Z pjb: You can even have a reader macro so that !"HELO" --> #(72 69 76 79) 2015-07-07T14:37:49Z Vityok: in my dreams I would also like to see an NFA implementation of a regex engine in CL 2015-07-07T14:38:11Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:38:16Z jasom: For several implementations, their string functions are so highly optimized that I have in the past used iso-8859-1 encodings with strings for binary data. Don't do that, but it is the easiest way to get something within about a factor of 2 of what is beset. 2015-07-07T14:38:30Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:38:34Z Denommus` quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-07T14:38:41Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:39:13Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:39:37Z Denommus quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-07T14:39:43Z Vityok: jasom: do you recall what implementations these were? 2015-07-07T14:39:43Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T14:40:18Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:40:24Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:40:47Z Denommus quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-07T14:40:54Z jasom: Vityok: sbcl, ccl, clisp. Though you can't do it with ccl and :external-format on windows, as there is no way I could find to disable \r\n conversion 2015-07-07T14:41:11Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:41:38Z jasom: Vityok: a big part of this is the slowness of graystreams. There is a fast binary IO library that doesn't use the streams interface that works better than this hack 2015-07-07T14:42:06Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:42:12Z jasom: e.g. with-output-to-string is faster than vector-push-extend of byte-vectors 2015-07-07T14:43:05Z antgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T14:43:29Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:43:48Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:43:49Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:43:51Z jasom: but on sbcl, map-into of a preallocated array is faster than either; on ccl there's something else you need to do (don't recall at this point in time) &ct. 2015-07-07T14:44:38Z jasom: It's been a while since I've been working on something for which performance was that critical. 2015-07-07T14:44:44Z pjb: well, that would depend on the extend parameter. If you use (length vector) as extent parameter, it should be faster to use vector-push-extend, I'd say. 2015-07-07T14:45:43Z oGMo: fast-io sortof tries to abstract this 2015-07-07T14:45:54Z jasom: pjb: right, this is why I said it was the easiest way to "get something within about a factor of 2 of what is best" it also had the advantage of having "good" performance across all implementations (someone submitted a patch that was faster on sbcl, but 8x slower on ccl, for example) 2015-07-07T14:46:02Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:46:09Z jasom: oGMo: I think that's the one I was thinking of 2015-07-07T14:46:11Z oGMo: but admittedly i've only really optimized for sbcl, i'll take a look at Vityok's results for CCL 2015-07-07T14:46:23Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:46:31Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-07T14:47:26Z jasom: and for no good reason (map 'vector ...) was faster than map-into of a preallocated vector on CCL at the time (It's probably fixed now, as I reported that to the CCL folks) 2015-07-07T14:47:36Z oGMo: also there are some things even fast-io could do considerably faster i think .. i have some optimizations for the read-X functions i think i haven't pushed .. but at least, it's a single place to focus on optimizing 2015-07-07T14:48:20Z jasom: I agree; if you find a performance hack for a given implementation, submit it to fast-io 2015-07-07T14:48:24Z jasom: oGMo: is fast-io yours? 2015-07-07T14:48:28Z oGMo: jasom: yeah 2015-07-07T14:48:33Z jasom: oGMo: it's awesome. 2015-07-07T14:48:40Z oGMo: it's a start ;/ 2015-07-07T14:48:45Z jasom: right 2015-07-07T14:48:51Z jasom: the interface is good 2015-07-07T14:49:24Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:49:45Z jasom: so far it's (at worst) "not-bad" performance in my testing, which beats out every single other library I've tried for binary IO. 2015-07-07T14:50:26Z oGMo: yeah i think the main thing i saw recently was cl-tga reading data in ridiculously fast, and i was trying to match that 2015-07-07T14:51:06Z Shinmera: fast-io was quite nice when I used it, so props for that. 2015-07-07T14:51:08Z oGMo: it just does some simple read-sequence though i think 2015-07-07T14:51:10Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:51:14Z oGMo: thanks heh 2015-07-07T14:51:28Z ssake quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:51:32Z jasom: heh, my favorite patch I received on a project was where I had a struct that was a vector and an offset, and someone submitted a patch to switch it to offset arrays. The code was originally offset arrays, then I switched to copying the array, wich was faster, and finally the struct which was only marginally faster but felt less dirty than doing all that copying 2015-07-07T14:51:55Z oGMo: hah 2015-07-07T14:52:14Z ssake_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T14:55:29Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-07T14:56:40Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:03:21Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:03:40Z Harag quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-07T15:04:10Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T15:04:30Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:06:53Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:08:15Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:08:32Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:10:59Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:11:11Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T15:13:50Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:14:10Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:14:46Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:20:46Z ehu1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:21:31Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:21:40Z Denommus quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-07T15:25:35Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:25:50Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:26:00Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2015-07-07T15:26:19Z Shinmera: Good evening, beach. 2015-07-07T15:27:32Z brpocock: howdy. 2015-07-07T15:28:52Z theos: guten tag beach 2015-07-07T15:29:39Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:30:26Z brpocock quit (Quit: brpocock) 2015-07-07T15:30:40Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:33:50Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:35:07Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-07T15:35:23Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T15:36:55Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:38:12Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T15:38:12Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:40:11Z ssake quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:41:23Z streptotrichosis quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:41:38Z ramkrsna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T15:42:39Z xan__ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:43:34Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:45:17Z __009__kk joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:46:00Z xan_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:46:15Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:46:57Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:49:40Z subopt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T15:50:06Z streptotrichosis joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:50:30Z subopt joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:50:46Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-07T15:51:04Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-07T15:53:01Z sdemarre1 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:54:22Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T15:54:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:54:52Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:55:59Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:56:57Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-07T15:58:05Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:58:56Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T15:59:55Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T16:03:19Z alusion joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:03:23Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T16:04:00Z beach: Shinmera: Is it possible to download your logs for #clasp and #lisp in text format? 2015-07-07T16:05:13Z Shinmera: beach: No, but I'll add that as a feature later today, if it's urgent. 2015-07-07T16:05:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T16:05:22Z beach: Not urgent. 2015-07-07T16:05:28Z Shinmera: Ok, I'll do it anyway 2015-07-07T16:05:30Z beach: But it would be nice to have at some point. 2015-07-07T16:05:46Z Shinmera: Yeah, the chatlog module is rather... under developed anyway. 2015-07-07T16:06:04Z Shinmera: I think I did add a JSON API, but I don't remember 2015-07-07T16:06:17Z beach: Oh. I didn't mean to give you additional work. 2015-07-07T16:10:11Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:12:23Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T16:16:43Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:17:16Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T16:19:27Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:19:40Z xan__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T16:23:22Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:23:33Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T16:24:35Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:26:11Z sdemarre1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T16:28:49Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:34:08Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:34:22Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-07T16:34:48Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:34:48Z jumblerg quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-07T16:35:55Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:39:09Z kdas_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T16:40:24Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:41:56Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:43:14Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T16:43:22Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:44:30Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T16:44:56Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:44:59Z walter|r_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:45:25Z hegel: anyone know if fukamachi hangs out here? 2015-07-07T16:46:09Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-07T16:46:29Z Shinmera: He doesn't. 2015-07-07T16:46:38Z hegel: i'm a python dev getting into lisp and found his stuff on github, seems like he's putting out some good things 2015-07-07T16:46:47Z Shinmera: You can find him on twitter though, @nitro_idiot 2015-07-07T16:46:51Z hegel: does he do irc at all? 2015-07-07T16:46:53Z hegel: ah ok 2015-07-07T16:47:18Z hegel: what's the word on cl21? 2015-07-07T16:47:54Z hegel: i imagine it would have irritated many common lisp veterans, seems a little youthful to me as a project 2015-07-07T16:48:15Z Shinmera: Also nobody to my knowledge actually uses it, so there's that 2015-07-07T16:48:51Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-07T16:48:55Z hegel: it seems kinda dead 2015-07-07T16:49:04Z Shinmera: Probably because nobody uses it. 2015-07-07T16:49:59Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T16:50:33Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:50:42Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:51:04Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T16:51:07Z Shinmera: Either way, people will probably also be less willing to help anyone that actually uses it, because a project like that makes it a lot more annoying to debug beginner's problems/questions. 2015-07-07T16:51:40Z Shinmera: So I would not advocate someone to start out with it, which is ironic, considering it was intended to serve exactly that use. 2015-07-07T16:52:06Z Shinmera: And once you're well-versed enough in CL you probably won't really see much benefit in using it anymore either, since you can just as easily jumble together some libraries without having to replace the CL package. 2015-07-07T16:52:13Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:52:45Z Shinmera: The only actual benefit it seems to bring is package-local nicknames, but it does that through gross reader hacks, so I would not advocate using it for that purpose either. 2015-07-07T16:53:35Z ecraven: would a patch to slime-media.el that base64 decoded the :data part of a transfered image be acceptable? 2015-07-07T16:53:41Z nyef: Don't we have package-local nicknames through some other system anyway? 2015-07-07T16:53:46Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:54:00Z Shinmera: Some implementations provide it natively, most don't. 2015-07-07T16:54:02Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:54:05Z ecraven: as far as i found, only slimer uses it anyway, and that only with :file, not :data 2015-07-07T16:54:39Z Shinmera: For those that do, from what I've heard the API is rather different, so it's probably not easy to unify it. 2015-07-07T16:57:07Z Shinmera: Speaking of overly ambitious projects 2015-07-07T16:57:20Z Shinmera: My current pet thought project is a replacement for ASDF 2015-07-07T16:57:33Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-07T16:57:39Z Shinmera: Something that isn't specifically tailored for CL, but can rather be used as a general build system. 2015-07-07T16:58:30Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T16:59:34Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T16:59:41Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T17:01:22Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:01:22Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T17:03:51Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:06:33Z brpocock: I'd seen a private project someone wrote to translate many Gnu Makefiles into ASDF rules, actually. 2015-07-07T17:07:01Z Shinmera: ASDF is a really poor fit for anything but Lisp. And even for that it's arguably a poor fit. 2015-07-07T17:07:45Z brpocock: I believe he was building a C library by running its ./configure script and then driving the rest of the build through ASDF, but it had used some rather lower-level-than-I-use stuff about defining wrapper/:before/&c methods for the different compilation stages. 2015-07-07T17:08:08Z Shinmera: ABCD does that 2015-07-07T17:08:23Z Shinmera: But I stopped working on it exactly because I realised I spent way too much time fighting ASDF. 2015-07-07T17:08:25Z hocwp quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-07T17:09:52Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:15:29Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T17:15:56Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:16:00Z v0|d joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:16:11Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-07T17:19:01Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:19:40Z psy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T17:22:06Z DGASAU: p_l: JFYI, in Russian Law the situation is exactly what you describe for Poland. 2015-07-07T17:22:54Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T17:23:11Z DGASAU: p_l: "public domain" means that the work is not copyrighted nor copyrightable, authorship is still preserved (i.e. you cannot claim you're author of work in public domain). 2015-07-07T17:23:28Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:23:44Z DGASAU: p_l: before 2008 you certainly could place your own work into public domain. 2015-07-07T17:24:18Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T17:25:44Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-07T17:28:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:31:50Z xan__ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:32:45Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:34:19Z xan_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T17:34:52Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:35:05Z jasom: Shinmera: for generic build systems, I find redo to be more that sufficient for me. That style, but running lisp functions instead of shell-scripts might be nice. 2015-07-07T17:35:05Z foom joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:35:32Z Shinmera: jasom: Are you referring to https://github.com/apenwarr/redo ? 2015-07-07T17:35:35Z jasom: Shinmera: yes 2015-07-07T17:35:41Z Shinmera: Alright, I'll have a look. 2015-07-07T17:36:08Z Shinmera: My current idea is to have the system adapt different defaults and strategies depending on what language you want to build. 2015-07-07T17:36:16Z jasom: It's extremely minimal 2015-07-07T17:39:28Z jasom: just invoke a shell script with 3 predetermined arguments, and it provides callbacks for the shell script to register information about dependencies 2015-07-07T17:42:49Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 186 seconds) 2015-07-07T17:49:10Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:49:10Z 2015-07-07T17:49:10Z names: ccl-logbot zyaku Petit_Dejeuner foom joneshf-laptop ziocroc xan__ cadadar psy_ yati v0|d Denommus Brozo Davidbrcz mishoo_ ebrasca kdas_ gravicappa k-stz walter|r_ brpocock lucien fortitude shka arborist Xach alusion dkcl subopt streptotrichosis __009__kk yeticry contrapunctus beach dougk_ stardiviner gingerale phadthai yasha9 cluck guiloooo quazimodo trn skeuomorf happy-dude jlongster badkins prphp tmtwd echo-area williamyao oleo cyphase someone 2015-07-07T17:49:11Z names: byroniczero kami nyef CEnnis91 magical-imouto ceryo ndrei Mon_Ouie pie__ milosn lokulin aretecode Mhoram akersof wizzo ronh mrottenkolber cosmicexplorer Fleurety harish_ stepnem troydm Shinmera marvi jewel ggole angavrilov em sharkz_ Adlai munksgaard whiteline f3lp sunwukong eazar001 MrWoohoo edgar-rft stevegt_ setheus karswell aap _2sexp theos keen__________13 Walex2 arpunk gendl wemeetagain joast ynchromeshs Patzy sulky rj-code tkd Subfusc drdo Zotan 2015-07-07T17:49:11Z names: alms_clozure gz jocuman Natch yrdz endou___________ splittist victor_lowther cojy segmond NhanH farhaven wz1000 dilated_dinosaur shifty779 kanru cods zaquest voidlily sivoais nell schjetne Oddity prince_jammys AntiSpamMeta killmaster mach dan64 specbot minion lala cheryllium PlasmaStar jewel_ hitecnologys zeitue easye araujo narendraj9 Oladon tessier adhoc aeth john-mcaleely scymtym NaNDude m_zr0 jdz dfox oGMo `micro Jaskologist smull fikusz Posterdati les 2015-07-07T17:49:12Z names: alchemis7 axion myrk2 dlowe j0ni sjl Intensity MoALTz Blkt_ z0d jasom ryankarason Kruppe EnergyCoffee yorick DGASAU akkad mearnsh otwieracz replcated aerique cmatei fionnan kbtr_ pinterface funnel mlamari_ decent johs bytecrawler copec sfa lpaste cyraxjoe fe[nl]ix Neet quasisan1 XachX clog pok zacts ecraven jrm joga angus HDurer guaqua kvsari spintronic tristero faheem_ Colleen xificurC jackc- djinni` nowhereman_ gigetoo pillton bege isoraqathedh anunnaki 2015-07-07T17:49:12Z names: srcerer lancetw mathrick snafuchs billstclair danlentz torpig GGMethos zymurgy bjorkintosh scharan codeitagile kalzz sbryant ircbrowse haasn ThePhoeron trig-ger_ abbe ec\_ lemoinem jsnell_ Ober_ zyoung_ hratsimi1ah eak_ p_l frsilent sytse_ misv_ kaptin Tuxedo justinmcp joshmcmillan_ asedeno sepi` reb`` eschulte flip214 djh radioninja_work impulse mtd moei dmiles_afk constantinexvi ft devon emuxius arrubin marinintim schoppenhauer dtw nydel roscoe_tw 2015-07-07T17:49:12Z names: froggey whartung honkfestival kjeldahl salva Zhivago Bike ferada SAL9000 mingvs Tordek vert2 hyoyoung ozzloy cpt_nemo capitaomorte Khisanth PuercoPop jtz wolgo vhost- loz vap1 loke brucem vlnx seg gniourf newcup sharkz p8m crichter warex __main__ arrsim ski epitron christoph_debian Cthulhux joshe jaffachief s1n4 TeMPOraL alex6407 xristos taij33n |3b| izabera gko ktx PinealGlandOptic qlkzy nicdev K1rk ahungry pchrist cross H4ns Tristam brandonz housel 2015-07-07T17:49:12Z names: redline6561 sigjuice thomas russell-- finnrobi_ klltkr_ jayne j_king oconnore ramus cmbntr ineiros wyan vsync Fade failproofshark theBlackDragon renard_ SHODAN tomaw cibs erg nightfly nisstyre Mandus_ samebchase jackdaniel _death clarkema larme peccu metaf5 musegarden diginet RazWelle1 low-profile dsp_ eagleflo p_l|backup rvchangu- l1x sellout AeroNotix ivan\ cantstanya edran dim nopf jeaye mikaelj_ motumla ivan4th spacebat1 gensym zickzackv The_third_man 2015-07-07T17:49:12Z names: mood Takumo ck_ stux|RC tokenrove phf zbigniew brent80_plow zmyrgel tmh_ bcoburn viaken2 gabot rotty1 rvirding lieven d4gg4d birk stokachu frankS2 yauz clop ggherdov josteink kini luis tokik eMBee daimrod swflint_away drmeister alladia_ wolf_moz- sshirokov ``Erik antoszka 2015-07-07T17:49:59Z jasom: Shinmera: redo solves this by providing a callback to register dependencies when performing a build. 2015-07-07T17:50:18Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:50:33Z zyaku: If I'm not using inheritance, is there any reason to use DEFCLASS over DEFSTRUCT? 2015-07-07T17:50:43Z Shinmera: zyaku: Redefinition. 2015-07-07T17:50:49Z jasom: or rather it's "build this if it's out-of-date, and implicitly put it on my list of dependencies for checking if I'm out of date" 2015-07-07T17:51:28Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-07T17:51:37Z Shinmera: jasom: I'm currently not clear on whether having a system that just does dependencies is enough. There might be separate tracking for which parts are affected by a build action. 2015-07-07T17:51:56Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T17:51:59Z Shinmera: Either way, there's a lot for me to think about, and at the moment everything is heavily in flux. 2015-07-07T17:53:10Z zyaku: Shinmera: thanks! 2015-07-07T17:53:15Z jasom: Shinmera: single commands that generate multiple-outputs are an issue too 2015-07-07T17:53:33Z Shinmera: jasom: Indeed. Hence my thoughts of having a separate "affecting" thing. 2015-07-07T17:54:07Z Shinmera: But anyway, I don't want to say much at this point because I'm nowhere near sure enough on anything. I'll remember to bring this up again once I have some specific ideas. 2015-07-07T17:54:20Z jasom: redo explicitly doesn't support such things 2015-07-07T17:54:34Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-07T17:55:30Z jasom: djb tends to take the point of view that the rest of the world is wrong when they do things any way but the simplest 2015-07-07T17:56:19Z contrapunctus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T17:56:19Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:56:19Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T17:56:34Z Shinmera: I want to make my system modular so you can plug the parts you need on to it. I really dislike that ASDF is this giant monolith. But again, I don't quite know how to do that yet either, so. 2015-07-07T17:57:02Z ggole quit 2015-07-07T17:57:02Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus 2015-07-07T17:59:29Z xan__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T18:00:20Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T18:01:06Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T18:01:25Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T18:03:48Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:05:18Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:05:37Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:08:59Z xan__ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:11:13Z nydel quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-07T18:11:58Z xan_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T18:15:41Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:16:13Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:17:01Z walter|r_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T18:20:08Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:21:52Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:23:49Z skeuomorf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T18:24:44Z trig-ger_ is now known as trig-ger 2015-07-07T18:25:06Z gniourf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T18:26:07Z skeuomorf joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:26:53Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T18:27:23Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:27:25Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:29:22Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:29:43Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-07T18:29:55Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:32:07Z larion joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:36:39Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-07-07T18:36:44Z Ln_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:37:13Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T18:37:50Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:37:54Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:38:01Z vrrm joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:41:00Z monod quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T18:42:40Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T18:43:09Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:44:04Z Ln_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-07T18:47:12Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-07-07T18:47:23Z Ln_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:49:12Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:49:31Z Xach: Shinmera: did you see pitman's paper on the topic? 2015-07-07T18:49:51Z Shinmera: Xach: I don't think I did. What was it called? 2015-07-07T18:50:05Z Xach: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Large-Systems.html 2015-07-07T18:50:20Z Shinmera: Ah-- thanks a lot! 2015-07-07T18:51:02Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:52:27Z Xach: http://xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=allegro+compilation+defsystem&sort=of has some discussion on the topic too 2015-07-07T18:52:52Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T18:54:38Z skeuomorf quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T18:54:57Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-07-07T18:55:12Z Ln_ is now known as EDW1305 2015-07-07T18:55:16Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-07T18:56:48Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T18:58:36Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-07T18:59:56Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:01:16Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:01:25Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:04:27Z xan__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-07T19:06:10Z antgreen` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:08:01Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T19:08:17Z kdas_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-07T19:08:29Z spintronic left #lisp 2015-07-07T19:16:24Z crypto joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:16:48Z crypto is now known as Guest22171 2015-07-07T19:19:49Z z0d quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-07T19:19:52Z Guest22171 is now known as z0d 2015-07-07T19:19:57Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2015-07-07T19:19:57Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:20:17Z williamyao: (defun tranpose (list) (apply #'map 'list #'list list)) 2015-07-07T19:20:39Z williamyao: That's a lot of lists. 2015-07-07T19:20:58Z EDW1305 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-07T19:22:18Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:23:46Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T19:28:00Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-07T19:30:18Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:30:23Z Denommus` quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-07T19:30:49Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:30:54Z Denommus` quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-07T19:30:55Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T19:31:20Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:31:23Z Denommus` quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-07T19:32:05Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:32:10Z Denommus` quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-07T19:32:12Z shka: williamyao: hey, it's lisp! 2015-07-07T19:33:07Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:33:11Z Denommus` quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-07T19:33:18Z shka: folks, right now i'm working on https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/86 2015-07-07T19:33:27Z shka: i wrote code that should work 2015-07-07T19:33:33Z shka: but, here is the problem 2015-07-07T19:33:41Z shka: i can't build ecl with my code in 2015-07-07T19:33:58Z Bike: uh, something wrong with &rest? 2015-07-07T19:34:00Z shka: ;;; Unhandled lisp initialization error 2015-07-07T19:34:02Z shka: ;;; Message: 2015-07-07T19:34:03Z shka: UNBOUND-VARIABLE 2015-07-07T19:34:23Z shka: i'm getting this during compilation of loop2 and core dump 2015-07-07T19:34:48Z Bike: i don't think dotted lists are valid lambda lists. 2015-07-07T19:34:52Z shka: right now i'm scratching my head trying to figure out how to debug it 2015-07-07T19:35:00Z shka: Bike: well, sbcl accepts those 2015-07-07T19:35:10Z Bike: sbcl accepts a lot of things 2015-07-07T19:35:17Z Bike: just use &rest 2015-07-07T19:35:53Z shka: hmmm 2015-07-07T19:36:08Z Bike: clhs 3.4.1 2015-07-07T19:36:08Z specbot: Ordinary Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 2015-07-07T19:36:14Z Bike: grammar's right there, no dots 2015-07-07T19:36:28Z shka: with whole respect, i need jackdaniel's opinion on this subject 2015-07-07T19:36:29Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:36:46Z Bike: hm. it might be okay in macro lambda lists. 2015-07-07T19:37:12Z Bike: yeah guess it is. i'd still use &rest though. 2015-07-07T19:37:39Z shka: Bike: anyway, no idea how to debug it? 2015-07-07T19:37:53Z Bike: not with just a message of "UNBOUND-VARIABLE", no 2015-07-07T19:38:29Z Bike: if it builds without your patch it presumably is something in your patch, maybe you misspelled something 2015-07-07T19:38:29Z shka: oh, but i think that i know what is wrong 2015-07-07T19:38:39Z dlowe: It works in macro lambda lists through destructuring. It's still better to use &rest or &body 2015-07-07T19:38:42Z shka: Bike: well, MACROS 2015-07-07T19:38:51Z Bike: i don't know what you mean. 2015-07-07T19:40:42Z Natch quit (Quit: exit(EXIT_FAILURE);) 2015-07-07T19:42:03Z shka: i mean that macros makes subtle bugs easy to slip 2015-07-07T19:47:47Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:50:06Z Kruppe quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T19:50:07Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:51:11Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:51:42Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:52:17Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:52:41Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-07T19:53:57Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T19:54:13Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:56:38Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:56:48Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-07T19:57:02Z grees joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:57:06Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-07T19:58:32Z shka: frustraiting 2015-07-07T19:58:37Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T19:58:38Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T19:59:15Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:01:11Z Shinmera: Xach: Hmm. Naggum makes some good arguments in favour of standardisation there. However, the issue with build systems and the like is that if there isn't an implementation (possibly of a standard) that works "everywhere", people will be very shy to use it. And once there is one, it's very unlikely someone will reimplement the standard (if it exists) because of the effort required to get up to the same level. 2015-07-07T20:01:40Z Shinmera: Xach: I guess what I'm saying is that I have a whole lot of work ahead of myself. 2015-07-07T20:02:40Z Xach: as norvig quoted chaucer: "the lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne." 2015-07-07T20:02:55Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:03:33Z Shinmera: Another point from my argument is that, even if you have a standard, people will be very likely to cling to the first implementation and any specific quirks it might exhibit in unspecified areas. 2015-07-07T20:04:05Z Shinmera: (SBCL is an example of that syndrome -- quite a few libraries only work well on it, or not at all on anything else) 2015-07-07T20:04:47Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T20:04:54Z Xach: that also happens when you have an implementation 2015-07-07T20:05:08Z Xach: Oh, missed the "even" bit 2015-07-07T20:05:21Z Shinmera: Definitely. I'm just saying that just because there is a standard does not mean that suddenly people will only adhere to that. 2015-07-07T20:06:16Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:06:55Z Shinmera: Anyway, I'll include the idea of a standard protocol into my thoughts. Maybe I can do something in that vein. 2015-07-07T20:07:27Z grees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T20:10:22Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T20:10:37Z alesguzik joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:10:40Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T20:11:49Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:11:56Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-07T20:12:36Z cpopell3 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:14:12Z dim: Shinmera: are you familiar with the README first idea? write a README about how to use your thing once it's done first, explaining it to its users, so that you have a big picture of how it (should) works 2015-07-07T20:14:47Z vrrm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-07T20:15:25Z dim: Shinmera: also I might be able to challenge such a README after having done el-get and PostgreSQL extension system, including add-ons that have been refused, and having written pginstall, a user-land completion of the ideas I wanted to hack into PostgreSQL proper 2015-07-07T20:15:38Z shka: ha! 2015-07-07T20:15:41Z shka: i made it! 2015-07-07T20:15:48Z brpocock: Literate programming? :-) 2015-07-07T20:16:11Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:16:13Z Shinmera: dim: I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying. 2015-07-07T20:16:33Z Shinmera: dim: "Write a README about how to use your thing once it's done first"? So.. I should write a README once I've written my implementation? 2015-07-07T20:16:37Z __009__kk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T20:16:43Z shka: brpocock: noooo, fixed bug in ecl 2015-07-07T20:16:45Z shka is proud 2015-07-07T20:17:12Z brpocock: I meant dim was describing something like Literate Programming :-) But, yay +1 shka 2015-07-07T20:17:45Z shka: oh, sorry 2015-07-07T20:17:49Z brpocock: I'm using ECL for my pet project so I look forward to pulling your fix :-) 2015-07-07T20:17:55Z shka: i got a bit egocenctric for a second 2015-07-07T20:19:02Z k-stz: Shinmera: write a README about how to use your thing (...) first [then implement it] 2015-07-07T20:19:15Z k-stz: that sounds like an interesting approach 2015-07-07T20:19:22Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:19:26Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:19:37Z Shinmera: k-stz: I guessed that was what he was trying to say, but you know. Ambiguity. 2015-07-07T20:20:43Z Shinmera: Generally I can't work like that because what the interface is and everything might change vastly while the initial implementation is built. Actually writing the software often reveals further complications or possible improvements. 2015-07-07T20:20:54Z dim: Shinmera: before you even start thinking in terms of code 2015-07-07T20:20:58Z Xach: it can be a back-and-forth loop 2015-07-07T20:21:09Z Xach: i found that writing docs helped clarify the implementation, and vice versa 2015-07-07T20:21:13Z dim: Shinmera: http://tom.preston-werner.com/2010/08/23/readme-driven-development.html 2015-07-07T20:21:13Z Shinmera: Yeah. 2015-07-07T20:21:37Z dlowe: huh. I called it doc driven. 2015-07-07T20:21:45Z dim: I've been using that approach for a long while and I find it very good 2015-07-07T20:21:53Z fragamus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:21:54Z dlowe: it's a good idea. doc <-> tests <-> code 2015-07-07T20:22:00Z Shinmera: Generally I start out with long brainstorming to get my terminology and core points straight and then move on to a "dream interface" that I would use to solve potential problems. Then I implement the system around it. 2015-07-07T20:22:12Z dim: dlowe: oh no, the docs comes after, the README is the vision about how to use the tool, what you want to solve 2015-07-07T20:22:21Z dim: nothing too detailed 2015-07-07T20:22:22Z fragamus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-07T20:22:25Z Shinmera: Either way, I usually don't have my projects (really) public while I work on them, so I don't know how contribution would work. 2015-07-07T20:22:56Z alesguzik quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T20:23:17Z dim: Shinmera: I'm just saying, if you're going to write a README first, I'll happily review it and might even have some comments more or less interesting and to the point 2015-07-07T20:23:29Z Shinmera: Sure. I'll keep it in mind, thanks. 2015-07-07T20:23:29Z dlowe: in my experience, strangers will only contribute when they need immediately what you already have 2015-07-07T20:23:54Z dim: I'd be happy to have something that I can understand to replace ASDF ;-) 2015-07-07T20:23:59Z dlowe: dim: what he's calling a readme is what I call docs :) 2015-07-07T20:24:07Z dim: hehe 2015-07-07T20:24:10Z Shinmera: And I call it 'interface driven' 2015-07-07T20:24:28Z dlowe: Just don't give it a four letter name of adjacent keyboard letters 2015-07-07T20:24:33Z dim: I'm too lazy to do it proper, but docs for me needs to cover in general 3 publics: (end-)users, admins and hackers 2015-07-07T20:24:35Z Shinmera: I won't, don't worry 2015-07-07T20:24:46Z dim: it's ok that the hackers docs are in the code itself, comments etc 2015-07-07T20:24:53Z jsnell_: trivial-hjkl 2015-07-07T20:24:53Z Shinmera: I disagree 2015-07-07T20:25:06Z Bike: mk-defsystem 2015-07-07T20:25:07Z dim: but the real docs should address both how to use and how to operate the thing you're building, IME 2015-07-07T20:25:25Z Shinmera: Even internals that nobody but a programmer should touch should be explained and properly documented in a separate file. 2015-07-07T20:25:49Z dim: separate file I don't know about that, I'm not good at reading them 2015-07-07T20:26:03Z Shinmera: I meant 'separate' in the same way that about.html or README.md is separate 2015-07-07T20:26:39Z Shinmera: (My example for this is Qtools, which has a section that explains how the internals work) 2015-07-07T20:28:25Z MasterPiece quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-07T20:29:10Z brpocock: The “overview of how the bits go together” doc, as opposed to docstrings for each function … 2015-07-07T20:29:24Z Shinmera: Yeah. 2015-07-07T20:29:51Z Shinmera: The 'why's as well 2015-07-07T20:31:02Z mrottenkolber quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T20:31:43Z animosiush joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:34:01Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-07T20:34:16Z jasom: VBNM Very Better than gNu Make 2015-07-07T20:34:44Z ynchromeshs: Hi folks, If my process running the Swank server is printing to standard error and that's appearing in my *inferior-lisp*, how hard would it be to get it to print to *error-output* (as well or instead of *inferior-lisp*) so I can see it in my REPL? 2015-07-07T20:34:48Z brpocock: Strangely, I have no /usr/bin/build 2015-07-07T20:35:22Z brpocock: How is that name not Taken? 2015-07-07T20:36:22Z Bike: maybe it's the build engine they used in duke nukem 2015-07-07T20:36:23Z yati quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-07T20:36:23Z Xach: ynchromeshs: not too hard. one way is to set the *inferior-lisp* thread's value of *error-output* to a broadcast stream 2015-07-07T20:37:17Z v0|d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-07T20:39:48Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-07T20:40:24Z ynchromeshs: Xach: Thanks, I'll investigate that in the morning. 2015-07-07T20:41:40Z Mandus_ is now known as Mandus 2015-07-07T20:42:38Z animosiush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-07T20:44:43Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:45:39Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T20:48:03Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-07T20:48:30Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: what do you mean ASDF is monolithic ? 2015-07-07T20:49:21Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: Everything is in one giant file and ASDF continuously tries to pack everything anyone might want to do with ASDF into itself. 2015-07-07T20:49:39Z Shinmera: Rather than having a system with a lightweight core accompanied by various extensions that provide additional functionality. 2015-07-07T20:50:24Z fe[nl]ix: if your core build system is extensible QA becomes a nightmare 2015-07-07T20:50:33Z fe[nl]ix: been there with maven 2015-07-07T20:50:37Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:51:13Z pjb: Shinmera: it's a specification of asdf, to be deliverable as a single asdf.lisp file. 2015-07-07T20:51:25Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: I don't know if that's a necessity or a coincidence. 2015-07-07T20:51:30Z Shinmera: pjb: I know. 2015-07-07T20:51:37Z pjb: Notice that nowadays, the source of asdf is spread over several file, IIRC, and concatenated in the right order to deliver asdf.lisp 2015-07-07T20:52:26Z grees joined #lisp 2015-07-07T20:53:17Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-07T20:53:22Z HisaoNakai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T20:59:01Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-07T21:01:14Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:01:58Z grees: does someone know a solution to this: i use emacs + slime. I wrote a function which just loops and reads from a buffer and prints the lines on the screen! when i call that function in a repl which was started in a normal terminal it just works as expected but inside emacs it doesn't print the lines from the buffer on the screen. Only if interrupt the loop i get everything which was read printed! 2015-07-07T21:02:23Z Bike: probably need to finish-output and such 2015-07-07T21:03:03Z grees: Bike: I do use force-output 2015-07-07T21:03:33Z ceryo quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-07T21:05:31Z monod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T21:09:28Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-07T21:10:53Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-07T21:11:05Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-07T21:14:18Z pjb: grees: your question is very confusing. 2015-07-07T21:14:46Z pjb: How do you get lines from the buffers from CL? How do you print on the screen with emacs? 2015-07-07T21:15:21Z pjb: Why do you expect us to debug your code without providing it? http://paste.lisp.org/new 2015-07-07T21:15:51Z grees: pjb: its not a problem with the code since it works in a normal repl 2015-07-07T21:16:14Z pjb: grees: WFM. 2015-07-07T21:16:46Z pjb: Since you don't want to give your code, I write my own, and it fucking works for me very nicely both in a xterm and in slime. 2015-07-07T21:17:24Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T21:17:25Z aeth: Are binary trees in Lisp usually represented as cons (i.e. (car node) and (cdr node)) or lists (i.e. (car node) and (cadr node)) ? Or something else? 2015-07-07T21:17:49Z Bike: conses if i'm not doing anything too complicated. 2015-07-07T21:17:55Z grees: pjb: one sec pls^^ 2015-07-07T21:18:03Z pjb: aeth: take quicklisp, identify all occurences of binary trees, count them, and count the occurences where a cons is used vs. the others. 2015-07-07T21:18:32Z Bike: it's not like lists versus conses is terribly important, though. 2015-07-07T21:18:37Z pjb: aeth: notice that useful binary trees have labels attached to each node, so already, a single cons cell is insufficient to represent a labelled binary tree node. 2015-07-07T21:18:50Z nyef: I think that the last time I was dealing with a binary tree in lisp, the representation was "2k-long vectors of unsigned-byte 8 per node" or something equally silly. 2015-07-07T21:19:26Z nyef: (Okay, they were B-trees, not binary trees, and the representation was dictated by an existing file, but it still counts, doesn't it?) 2015-07-07T21:19:38Z Bike: i wrote really dumb addition chain exponentiation and just used conses, but i had another function that printed them as a completely different format for readability 2015-07-07T21:19:43Z aeth: pjb: yes I noticed that there are issues with conses, especially if the conses can have lists as their content. I'm not sure how to tell a cons from a list (since lists show up in CONSP as they are technically conses) 2015-07-07T21:19:44Z fragamus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:19:48Z grees: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151185 2015-07-07T21:19:50Z pjb: aeth: but mostly, those questions are of no importance. What matters, is that you define a functional abstraction. 2015-07-07T21:20:02Z jasom: aeth: last time I wrote a tree, I used a struct 2015-07-07T21:20:36Z Bike: grees: um, you're not using finish-output or force-output in the loop. 2015-07-07T21:20:55Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:21:01Z Bike: and also you're not using it on standard output anyway. 2015-07-07T21:21:23Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T21:22:23Z aeth: It's sad that it's not as simple as conses, though, because conses as trees can be traversed really easily with tail recursion. 2015-07-07T21:22:54Z pjb: aeth: that's why I invented TRONSES. 2015-07-07T21:23:02Z aeth: I was just looking over programming forums to see what the non-Lisp crowd are talking about and this was a thread I found. https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/39d0u1/google_90_of_our_engineers_use_the_software_you/ 2015-07-07T21:23:04Z Bike: twice on each node without non-tail calls, huh 2015-07-07T21:23:06Z grees: Bike: you're right sry 2015-07-07T21:23:31Z Bike: grees: does it work as you expect if you throw (finish-output) into the loop? 2015-07-07T21:24:01Z aeth: If the comments are right it looks like the answer is as simple as (defun invert (node) (cond ((consp node) (cons (invert (cdr node)) (invert (car node)))) (t node))) assuming that conses/lists can't be elements of the tree and it's a cons tree 2015-07-07T21:25:13Z aeth: Also assuming it's SBCL or something else that can handle that kind of recursion (I think that will be optimized? I've seen stuff like that done, but mostly in Scheme) 2015-07-07T21:25:15Z Bike: interview questions are so sad. 2015-07-07T21:25:15Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:25:32Z Bike: aeth: well, those aren't tail calls, is the issue. 2015-07-07T21:25:36Z aeth: ah 2015-07-07T21:25:40Z Bike: also there's two of them. 2015-07-07T21:25:55Z aeth: so this will blow the stack if the tree's too big 2015-07-07T21:26:24Z Bike: the maximum stack depth is just the tree height, so i wouldn't worry about it. 2015-07-07T21:26:34Z jasom: aeth: walking a tree requires some state for backtracking; you can do it recursively, which keeps the state on the stack, or iteratively which requires you to explicitly maintain the state 2015-07-07T21:27:24Z aeth: jasom: right, the only list/tree algorithms I have memorized off the top of my head are the recursive ones because of Scheme. 2015-07-07T21:27:42Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:28:47Z jasom: aeth: list algorithms need not be recursive, tree algorithms must 2015-07-07T21:28:53Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:29:35Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:29:42Z jasom: aeth: scheme won't optimize away the recursive calls to tree walking either (at least for all but the last child you visit for each node) as it's not tail-recursive 2015-07-07T21:30:07Z pjb: grees: works for me, once you debug it! http://paste.lisp.org/+38NL/1 2015-07-07T21:30:10Z aeth: Yes, I see that now. Because there's two. I guess I was being overly optimistic in what can be optimized. 2015-07-07T21:31:04Z pjb: grees: if you can't count up to 4, you can use #.(length "PONG") 2015-07-07T21:31:33Z Bike: aeth: not just that there's two, but also that you do something with the result other than immediately return it. 2015-07-07T21:31:53Z Bike: tail calls are goto with rename, you see 2015-07-07T21:33:34Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:34:00Z aeth: Hmm... I know how you can use conses or lists as the tree data structure while being able to store conses or lists as data, too. Maybe you can just CONS :not-a-node or something to lists/conses and then check the CAR for that in the tree algorithms. 2015-07-07T21:34:26Z lisper29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-07T21:34:58Z pjb: aeth: check https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/Nno1qbWeP2M/DemL4JflZgwJ 2015-07-07T21:35:10Z grees: pjb: what do you mean with: if you cant count to 4? dont get it 2015-07-07T21:35:14Z Bike: i'd just use structs or classes or something. 2015-07-07T21:35:30Z fragamus quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-07T21:35:51Z pjb: grees: you had: (replace line "PONG" :end1 5) and this signals an error. This is probably why you don't get any output. 2015-07-07T21:36:01Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:36:05Z fragamus joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:36:32Z antgreen` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-07T21:36:46Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-07T21:39:03Z grees: pjb: hm that doesn't change the problem.. 2015-07-07T21:39:14Z pjb: As you can see, it works perfectly for me. 2015-07-07T21:39:24Z grees: i see 2015-07-07T21:39:48Z Bike: did you try fixing force-output use, or what 2015-07-07T21:39:53Z pjb: grees: http://paste.lisp.org/+38NL/2 2015-07-07T21:40:17Z grees: Bike: yes i tryed 2015-07-07T21:40:36Z pjb: of course, it would be good to add finish-output or force-output in any case. 2015-07-07T21:46:06Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-07T21:47:16Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-07T21:47:17Z williamyao: aeth: You can actually walk a tree in constant _stack_ space; consider: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151187 2015-07-07T21:47:30Z williamyao: calling it with (invert some-tree #'identity) 2015-07-07T21:47:51Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:48:04Z grees: pjb: Bike: aaah i had the force-output at the wrong place , thx 4 help 2015-07-07T21:48:05Z williamyao: But like jasom said, you need some state stored somewhere; in this case inside the closures that end up going on the heap. 2015-07-07T21:48:22Z williamyao: Er, in constant stack space without using explicit iteration. 2015-07-07T21:49:37Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:51:45Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:51:47Z pjb: also, having parent links can help 2015-07-07T21:53:48Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-07T21:54:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-07T21:54:59Z grees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T21:55:36Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-07T21:56:41Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-07T21:57:30Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-07T22:00:04Z __009__kk joined 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Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-08T00:07:55Z kdas_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-08T00:08:21Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-08T00:12:13Z pillton: Fare: What do you want it to return? 2015-07-08T00:16:00Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T00:16:53Z Fare: an absolute path that may not be fully resolved. 2015-07-08T00:17:20Z Fare: (or even a relative path, to support perverse cases without an accessible root) 2015-07-08T00:19:23Z harish_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T00:19:25Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T00:20:51Z pillton: I'm not sure I follow. What is wrong with something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151194 2015-07-08T00:21:07Z cosmicexplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T00:22:02Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T00:22:08Z Fare: you may not have access rights 2015-07-08T00:22:13Z Fare: it may be a directory 2015-07-08T00:22:33Z Fare: the merging with d-p-d might be tricky 2015-07-08T00:22:39Z Fare: d-p-d might be logical 2015-07-08T00:22:47Z Fare: the pathname may be logical 2015-07-08T00:22:58Z Fare: d-p-d may be relative 2015-07-08T00:23:09Z Fare: you may be on windows 2015-07-08T00:23:25Z pillton: Clisp's probe-file doesn't work on directories. 2015-07-08T00:23:32Z Fare: the pathname may look like a file, but name a directory 2015-07-08T00:23:40Z Fare: etc. 2015-07-08T00:24:08Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-08T00:24:50Z Fare: and yes, you want if possible your semantics to be portable enough to be useful on all platforms, if possible 2015-07-08T00:28:00Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-08T00:28:25Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-07-08T00:32:18Z dvnmk joined #lisp 2015-07-08T00:35:35Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T00:36:12Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-08T00:36:25Z yasha_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T00:38:52Z Fare: in any case, it's hours of lost work building a portable abstraction on top of 15+ CLs on 4+ platforms 2015-07-08T00:38:53Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T00:39:19Z Fare: and I admit some of the variants are just plain broken. 2015-07-08T00:39:27Z pillton: Yeah. 2015-07-08T00:39:36Z Fare: (but who cares about gcl, genera, corman, xcl ?( 2015-07-08T00:39:49Z Fare: or mocl or clasp 2015-07-08T00:40:02Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T00:40:35Z pillton: I don't think it is an implementation we need. It is a CDR. 2015-07-08T00:40:43Z keen__________14 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T00:40:54Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T00:40:59Z Fare: so that 10 years from now, we'll have a common implementation? 2015-07-08T00:41:57Z keen__________13 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T00:42:17Z Fare: I actually believe what CL ideally needs is someone to complete iolib on both unix and windows -- and maybe then get that standardized 2015-07-08T00:42:29Z Fare: but hey, not gonna happen. 2015-07-08T00:42:49Z holycow: it will if someone pays for it 2015-07-08T00:43:53Z holycow: the age old problem 2015-07-08T00:44:04Z holycow: and then, someone comes along finances it and then it is done all wrong 2015-07-08T00:44:04Z holycow: heh 2015-07-08T00:44:27Z holycow: good night 2015-07-08T00:44:29Z holycow quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-08T00:45:38Z Fare: interesting how the Scheme community tries to do it through standardization, too. 2015-07-08T00:46:01Z Fare: It still take years, even there, with plenty of discrepancy between implementations still. 2015-07-08T00:47:49Z pillton: I/O is complicated. I'm not sure standardising it is worth while. 2015-07-08T00:47:55Z pillton: It falls in to the same bucket as threads. 2015-07-08T00:48:00Z pillton: In my opinion. 2015-07-08T00:49:27Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T00:50:17Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-08T00:51:45Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-08T00:52:38Z Fare: or maybe instead of trying to make CL portable, effort should be poured into making one implementation great, e.g. SICL, or whatever 2015-07-08T00:56:03Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-08T00:56:24Z segmond joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:02:06Z Fare: grrr, just the treatment of #p"" vs #p"./" is a bitch, and there's no normalization function. 2015-07-08T01:02:32Z Fare: oh, and I'm pretty sure "." and ".." don't exist on genera, and maybe not in macos9. 2015-07-08T01:05:11Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:05:38Z Fare: btw, does .. mean up or back? 2015-07-08T01:08:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T01:09:22Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:09:23Z ceryo quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T01:11:31Z skeuomorf joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:15:59Z tyrannozarus_001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-08T01:17:55Z jasom: Fare: it means "parent" 2015-07-08T01:18:43Z jasom: not "back" since foo/bar/../ might not be the same as foo/ 2015-07-08T01:20:09Z nyef: ... In the case that bar is a symlink or hard-link? 2015-07-08T01:20:50Z jasom: nyef: you can't hard-link directories, so symlink only 2015-07-08T01:20:56Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-08T01:21:18Z nyef: Fair enough. I didn't think a hard-link made too much sense with a directory, but wasn't sure. 2015-07-08T01:22:17Z jasom: I don't know if it's in POSIX anywhere but unix essentially guarantees a tree, if you don't follow links or cross FS boundaries 2015-07-08T01:22:53Z pillton: Fare: Couldn't we just introduce a dynamic variable *string-to-pathname-function* to solve this problem? 2015-07-08T01:24:03Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T01:24:23Z jasom wants readers to allow you to hook into conversion from tokens to symbols 2015-07-08T01:24:46Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:24:56Z pillton: jasom: Yes. That is a good one too. 2015-07-08T01:25:02Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:25:58Z pillton: I would actually prefer *object-to-pathname-function*. 2015-07-08T01:27:42Z Zhivago: Why not target namestrings instead? 2015-07-08T01:28:24Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:28:28Z Fare: jasom: that's a lot of if's. I also remember having unreadable or dangling parents preventing introspection of the absolute path. 2015-07-08T01:29:10Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T01:29:17Z jasom: yes 2015-07-08T01:29:26Z jasom: well there is no absolute patch in that case 2015-07-08T01:29:50Z Fare: so shoud probe-file fail, or return a relative path? 2015-07-08T01:30:38Z __009__kk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T01:31:38Z jasom: fail 2015-07-08T01:32:01Z pillton: clhs 19.1.3 2015-07-08T01:32:02Z specbot: Parsing Namestrings Into Pathnames: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_ac.htm 2015-07-08T01:32:18Z pillton: Zhivago: "because the format of namestrings is implementation-dependent." 2015-07-08T01:32:52Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-08T01:33:25Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:33:46Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-08T01:33:48Z pillton: The general pattern is converting one representation in to a pathname. People clearly find the current conversion frustrating, so why not give them the ability to implement the conversion themselves. 2015-07-08T01:33:50Z alusion joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:34:11Z alusion quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T01:35:04Z jasom: probe-file returns a truename, a truname is a filename, and a filename must be a handle that can be used to refer to a file in the file system. There is no such handle for a file like this, so probe-file should fail 2015-07-08T01:35:40Z alusion joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:38:19Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T01:39:25Z __009__kk joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:39:33Z Fare: what about a non-truenaming variant of probe-file ? 2015-07-08T01:41:37Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T01:44:53Z dvnmk quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-08T01:45:40Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:45:51Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T01:47:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:47:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T01:48:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:48:57Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T01:49:34Z jasom: then it gets down to what do you mean by "exists" 2015-07-08T01:49:54Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:52:43Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T01:53:58Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:55:09Z jasom: signaling file-error actually might be better 2015-07-08T01:55:16Z jasom: An error of type file-error is signaled if the file system cannot perform the requested operation. 2015-07-08T01:58:17Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-08T01:58:20Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T02:00:17Z jasom: I think there is a strong case for saying that a deleted file doesn't exist so probe-file should fail 2015-07-08T02:01:45Z Borbus joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:02:35Z nyef: Doesn't PROBE-FILE have a defined, non-error semantic for a non-extant file? 2015-07-08T02:02:44Z nyef: Or am I misremembering? 2015-07-08T02:02:53Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:03:13Z jasom: nyef: it does, the question is does this file exist? 2015-07-08T02:04:13Z jasom: I originally said it should return nil, but offered the option of file-error if you think the file does exist 2015-07-08T02:04:54Z nyef: ... And now I'm lost. What's the specific situation here? 2015-07-08T02:05:55Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:06:24Z wz1000 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T02:07:05Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:07:12Z jasom: nyef: an orphaned file on unix with a still-open file-stream 2015-07-08T02:07:56Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:08:03Z nyef: The file exists until the stream is closed, but it is not accessible via the filesystem, so you can't get a name for it. 2015-07-08T02:08:04Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-08T02:08:11Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-08T02:08:41Z jasom: nyef: if it exists then probe-file should return it's truename 2015-07-08T02:08:51Z jasom: s/it's/its 2015-07-08T02:09:06Z jasom: nyef: if it doesn't exist you return nil 2015-07-08T02:09:12Z nyef: But does it still HAVE a truename? 2015-07-08T02:09:19Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:09:21Z jasom: nyef: clearly not 2015-07-08T02:09:48Z drmeister: Hi beach! We were just over in #clasp mulling over a problem that we encountered with some strange looking MIR. stassats found a nice, small test case. If you have some time, could I show it to you? 2015-07-08T02:09:51Z jasom: I would argue it doesn't even have a filename by the CLHS definition, since there isn't a handle by which you can referrence it in the filesystem 2015-07-08T02:09:54Z nyef: So, it exists, because it still takes up space on the disk, and you still have a file descriptor for it. 2015-07-08T02:10:01Z nyef: Right, no filename. 2015-07-08T02:10:09Z nyef: Maybe it's no longer a FILE? 2015-07-08T02:10:11Z jasom: so either nil or signal file-error is correct 2015-07-08T02:10:30Z jasom: nyef: no good, it is still of type file-stream, so it is a pathname designator 2015-07-08T02:10:46Z beach: drmeister: Sure, but please show the HIR instead. 2015-07-08T02:10:56Z drmeister: Sure. 2015-07-08T02:11:20Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:11:30Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-08T02:11:53Z jasom: If you think it exists, then signalling file-error is clearly the right thing to do (since the file system cannot perform the operation of looking up its truename) 2015-07-08T02:12:00Z jasom: If you think it doesn't exist, returning nil is correct 2015-07-08T02:12:27Z drmeister: beach: Here is the code that generates the problem (crash) 2015-07-08T02:12:35Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda () (block nil (let ((form (block in (let (*) (return-from in)) (return-from nil nil)))) form))) :debug t) 2015-07-08T02:12:36Z jasom: I lean towards "it doesn't exist" but I see the argument for the other side 2015-07-08T02:13:41Z nyef: clhs 20.1.2 2015-07-08T02:13:42Z specbot: File Operations on Open and Closed Streams: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/20_ab.htm 2015-07-08T02:14:13Z nyef: Third paragraph, second sentence. 2015-07-08T02:14:15Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/inM443q.png 2015-07-08T02:14:31Z nyef: Pretty much explicitly licenses a NIL result. 2015-07-08T02:15:07Z drmeister: beach: I think the problem is at the top - the G2054 variable 2015-07-08T02:15:55Z jasom: nyef: the question isn't what the spec allows, but what is correct semantics for unix. 2015-07-08T02:16:16Z drmeister: In the MIR there is a Fetch in the outermost function - something that I haven't encountered before. It tries to fetch a cell from a closed over environment but the environment is nil --> crash. 2015-07-08T02:16:16Z beach: drmeister: What's the problem with it? 2015-07-08T02:16:53Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/ArGjUizU/mir.pdf 2015-07-08T02:17:49Z drmeister: Note - on the left, under "Start" the first thing that happens is a "Fetch" - of what environment? This is the outermost function and I've always run it in the top level environment. 2015-07-08T02:18:09Z beach: So this is the result of the escape analysis? 2015-07-08T02:18:39Z drmeister: I'm not sure. I should look and see what happens between the HIR I posted and this MIR. 2015-07-08T02:18:44Z drmeister: Checking... 2015-07-08T02:18:52Z nyef: jasom: The file no longer has a truename... And PROBE-FILE returns the truename, therefore follow the contract for TRUENAME, which is a FILE-ERROR. 2015-07-08T02:19:53Z beach: drmeister: You confused me, because this is not really what I call MIR. What I call MIR has address calculations exposed. 2015-07-08T02:20:58Z drmeister: Right - sorry. It's not clear to me where it stops being HIR and starts being MIR. 2015-07-08T02:21:16Z drmeister: Mostly because I barely use address calculations yet. 2015-07-08T02:21:18Z beach: It is MIR once you replace CAR-INSTRUCTION by MEMREF... 2015-07-08T02:21:33Z beach: And READ-CELL by the same. 2015-07-08T02:22:13Z drmeister: Right - and I should do that soon. 2015-07-08T02:22:32Z beach: OK, let me start by checking that I can reproduce the problem here. 2015-07-08T02:24:18Z beach: drmeister: Bad news. It doesn't crash here. 2015-07-08T02:24:27Z drmeister: Great - thank you. I thought it might be a consequence of how values are returned by RETURN-FROM across function boundaries. 2015-07-08T02:24:35Z drmeister: beach: It won't crash for you. 2015-07-08T02:24:47Z drmeister: Do you invoke the outer function? 2015-07-08T02:24:50Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-08T02:25:08Z Fare: drmeister, btw, I watched your presentation eventually, and wow, awesome! Congratulations. 2015-07-08T02:25:30Z beach: drmeister: I'll check the details. It could be that my translation hides the problem. 2015-07-08T02:25:59Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:26:49Z Rptx quit (Quit: gonna sleep) 2015-07-08T02:28:59Z Fare: so a limitation of CL seems that it can only process files that have a truename? 2015-07-08T02:29:17Z Fare: and must compute the truename of every file? 2015-07-08T02:30:29Z beach: drmeister: It is going to take some time, because I am not quite awake yet. Some people might get impatient in the meantime. 2015-07-08T02:30:47Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-08T02:31:32Z Zhivago: fare: Well, a truename need not be unique. 2015-07-08T02:32:23Z Zhivago: fare: Doesn't it just boil down to not being logical in the final analysis? 2015-07-08T02:33:18Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T02:34:37Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:36:32Z beach: drmeister: Since I don't do the escape analysis here, that would explain why it doesn't crash here. 2015-07-08T02:36:57Z beach: drmeister: continuing my investigation... 2015-07-08T02:37:03Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:37:25Z drmeister: No problem. 2015-07-08T02:38:21Z beach: drmeister: Remind me what the next step is! Is it PROCESS-CAPTURE-VARIABLES? 2015-07-08T02:38:31Z beach: CAPTURED 2015-07-08T02:38:36Z drmeister: Checking. 2015-07-08T02:39:10Z beach: ... after generating HIR, that is. 2015-07-08T02:39:53Z drmeister: Immediately after the first HIR I pasted is PROCESS-CAPTURED-VARIABLES. 2015-07-08T02:40:00Z drmeister: I can generate HIR after that step as well 2015-07-08T02:40:12Z beach: It's OK. 2015-07-08T02:40:31Z drmeister: I'll identify the step that's doing it. 2015-07-08T02:41:10Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:41:45Z beach: drmeister: There is already a discrepancy at the HIR level between your code and mine. 2015-07-08T02:41:51Z drmeister: The problem could be on my side - maybe I need to enclose the outermost function in an environment. 2015-07-08T02:42:16Z drmeister: Maybe I need to enclose the outermost function in a closed over environment. 2015-07-08T02:42:50Z beach: I don't seem to have the equivalent of G2054. 2015-07-08T02:43:00Z drmeister: Hmm 2015-07-08T02:43:09Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:43:22Z Fare: beach: do you have a formal or semi-formal way of encoding the invariants for each of your passes? 2015-07-08T02:43:38Z Fare: do they look like algrebaic data types? 2015-07-08T02:43:39Z drmeister: G2045? 2015-07-08T02:44:07Z Fare: can you reset the gensym counter before generating the examples? 2015-07-08T02:44:09Z drmeister: Sorry, G2054 (in an ellipse) 2015-07-08T02:45:29Z beach: Fare: Not at the moment. 2015-07-08T02:45:32Z drmeister: These particular gensyms have very similar names. 2015-07-08T02:47:31Z badkins quit 2015-07-08T02:48:44Z fragamus quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-08T02:49:48Z drmeister: Here are the HIR transformations that I'm using. It's the PROCESS-CAPTURE-VARIABLES that is creating the Fetch that causes the crash. 2015-07-08T02:50:07Z drmeister: But the problem may not be the Fetch but rather that I am not enclosing the outermost function in an environment 2015-07-08T02:50:11Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/85TWmFTU/ 2015-07-08T02:50:46Z drmeister: Although, how I would determine that I need to enclose it in an environment eludes me. 2015-07-08T02:51:11Z drmeister: With Cleavir, I've relied on enclose-instruction to do that for me. 2015-07-08T02:51:24Z beach: drmeister: I can't keep up. 2015-07-08T02:51:38Z drmeister: There's no hurry. 2015-07-08T02:51:55Z drmeister: Take your time. I'll work on something else. 2015-07-08T02:52:08Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-08T02:52:23Z beach: drmeister: I see an ELIMINATE-SUPERFLUOUS-TEMPORARIES in there. 2015-07-08T02:53:15Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T02:54:04Z beach: drmeister: Are you still here? 2015-07-08T02:54:12Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-07-08T02:54:17Z beach: drmeister: I see an ELIMINATE-SUPERFLUOUS-TEMPORARIES in there. 2015-07-08T02:54:23Z beach: Is that normal? 2015-07-08T02:54:41Z drmeister: Yes, I started using eliminate-superfluous-temporaries as soon as you fixed it. 2015-07-08T02:55:23Z beach: drmeister: But, we discussed this, and I told you that it is not working and that you shouldn't use it. You already demonstrated a problem with it, and I told you the approach is naive and doesn't work. 2015-07-08T02:55:43Z drmeister: Oh - I thought you meant the old approach and that you fixed it. 2015-07-08T02:55:49Z drmeister: I'll comment it back out. 2015-07-08T02:55:52Z beach: drmeister: The problem you showed at the time was pretty much identical to the one you are showing me now. 2015-07-08T02:55:59Z drmeister: Ah! 2015-07-08T02:56:22Z drmeister: Sorry, I misunderstood - I thought you had fixed it. I'll comment it out. 2015-07-08T02:56:38Z beach: I have not fixed it, and I won't in the foreseeable future. 2015-07-08T02:57:43Z drmeister: Got it. 2015-07-08T02:57:53Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T02:58:17Z drmeister: Trying again. 2015-07-08T02:59:17Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-08T03:01:02Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T03:02:30Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T03:05:12Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T03:06:42Z drmeister: I've turned off eliminate-superfluous-temporaries, and then verified that I turned it off and the problem persists. 2015-07-08T03:07:39Z beach: Now that is very strange, because it looked exactly like the kind of problem that eliminate-superfluous-temporaries would create. 2015-07-08T03:09:28Z pjb: Fare: (defun probe-file* (not-true-path) (when (probe-file not-true-path) not-true-path)); what's hard in that? 2015-07-08T03:10:22Z pjb: pillton: probe-file is not specified to work on directories. clisp provides ext:probe-directory 2015-07-08T03:10:24Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-08T03:12:20Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-08T03:12:32Z alusion: (lambda (who) (cond ((string= who "pjb") '(bro do you even lisp)) (t nil))) 2015-07-08T03:12:35Z beach: drmeister: There is something fishy in there. I don't have an UNWIND in my HIR code, but you do. 2015-07-08T03:12:41Z alusion: is that line correct 2015-07-08T03:13:19Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-08T03:14:02Z drmeister: Well, that is something. I wonder why. 2015-07-08T03:14:13Z beach: drmeister: In your HIR, there is a precalc-value-ref: '*:0 2015-07-08T03:14:19Z beach: drmeister: What does that mean? 2015-07-08T03:14:20Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-08T03:14:34Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T03:15:52Z beach: drmeister: Oh, I see what it is. Never mind. 2015-07-08T03:16:14Z drmeister: That means get a load-time-value. stassats put the * in there - it is the special variable * and it's being bound to NIL. 2015-07-08T03:16:22Z beach: Yes, yes, I get it. 2015-07-08T03:16:33Z drmeister: I already had the description typed out. 2015-07-08T03:17:08Z pjb: Fare: an implementation can define physical pathnames (ie. truenames) however it wants. An open file of which you delete the last link, still has a devid and an inode. Therefore you can still build a physical "pathname" to designate it. 2015-07-08T03:17:38Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-08T03:18:21Z pjb: Fare: and besides the implementation specific definitions imposed by the standard, implementations can provide extensions to CL. POSIX:PROBE-FILE or whatever with whatever specification you like. 2015-07-08T03:19:00Z beach: drmeister: Can you give me the HIR before you call the HIR transformations? 2015-07-08T03:19:16Z drmeister: Sure. 2015-07-08T03:19:42Z drmeister: Before TYPE-INFERENCE? 2015-07-08T03:19:55Z beach: Yes, before my-hir-transformations. 2015-07-08T03:20:24Z beach: Or before it does its first thing. 2015-07-08T03:22:47Z drmeister: Working... 2015-07-08T03:24:23Z pillton: pjb: Yes. It took me by surprise all those years ago. 2015-07-08T03:24:23Z copycat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T03:24:27Z copycat1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T03:25:29Z drmeister: Here you go: http://i.imgur.com/3jCSo9v.png 2015-07-08T03:26:48Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T03:26:51Z copycat1 is now known as copycat 2015-07-08T03:27:14Z drmeister: Or do you want something earlier? 2015-07-08T03:27:26Z beach: I don't know yet. I don't think so. 2015-07-08T03:27:27Z copycat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T03:27:28Z copycat1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T03:27:39Z beach: I am thinking this one looks normal, but I need a few more minutes. 2015-07-08T03:27:43Z pjb: pillton: you don't need to probe directories, since we have ENSURE-DIRECTORIES-EXIST. 2015-07-08T03:27:54Z pjb: ;-) 2015-07-08T03:28:47Z pillton: pjb: But no DELETE-DIRECTORY. 2015-07-08T03:29:10Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-08T03:29:21Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-08T03:29:52Z copycat1 is now known as copycat 2015-07-08T03:30:05Z beach: drmeister: I believe this HIR is OK. 2015-07-08T03:30:08Z copycat quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T03:30:20Z pillton: pjb: Do you have a view on incorporating a mechanism for arbitrary transformations from strings to pathnames? 2015-07-08T03:30:34Z beach: drmeister: The G2092 is the is the static environment, and since you don't have any captured variables, it is not used. 2015-07-08T03:32:01Z drmeister: Generating some more after following transforms in anticipation. 2015-07-08T03:32:02Z pjb: pillton: what about defun? 2015-07-08T03:32:27Z pjb: (defun arbitrary-transformation-from-string-to-pathname (string) …) ; --> pathname 2015-07-08T03:32:49Z pjb: as in: (pathname string) --> pathname. 2015-07-08T03:33:18Z beach: drmeister: Hold on.... 2015-07-08T03:33:19Z pillton: pjb: Please don't do that. I was under the impression that you had already read the conversation above. 2015-07-08T03:33:33Z beach: drmeister: There is an input to the UNWIND-INSTRUCTION. 2015-07-08T03:34:06Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T03:34:37Z beach: drmeister: The UNWIND-INSTRUCTION doesn't take any inputs. 2015-07-08T03:35:51Z beach: drmeister: I need to define * as a special variable in my environment and then generate HIR again, so see whether I have the same thing. 2015-07-08T03:36:00Z drmeister: Oh dear. 2015-07-08T03:37:16Z drmeister: Good eyes. I've been staring at these for hours trying to figure out what was wrong. 2015-07-08T03:43:37Z beach: drmeister: My unwind does not have an input. 2015-07-08T03:46:20Z drmeister: Hmm. 2015-07-08T03:46:28Z drmeister: This is what I had reduced the form to: (block nil (let ((form (BLOCK main (LET ((CORE::*HANDLER-CLUSTERS* nil)) (RETURN-FROM main (FOO))) (RETURN-FROM main (return-from nil nil))))) form)) 2015-07-08T03:46:37Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T03:47:30Z drmeister: I don't know if that gives any clues 2015-07-08T03:48:20Z drmeister: Would it help to look at the AST? 2015-07-08T03:48:30Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T03:48:57Z beach: I can't keep up. 2015-07-08T03:49:06Z beach: I am still staring at my HIR. 2015-07-08T03:49:09Z __009__kk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T03:50:12Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T03:51:58Z beach: drmeister: I think we need to figure out why your unwind has an input and mine doesn't. 2015-07-08T03:52:09Z drmeister: I'm digging. 2015-07-08T03:52:40Z beach: drmeister: Since this is before any common transformations, something must have introduced it. 2015-07-08T03:53:39Z beach: drmeister: Is your introduction of landing pads an independent phase? That is, is it possible to look at the HIR before the landing pads are introduced? 2015-07-08T03:54:10Z drmeister: Checking. 2015-07-08T03:56:49Z drmeister: If you would like to leave this with me for a while - I can figure out why the UNWIND-INSTRUCTION has an input. 2015-07-08T03:57:07Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-08T03:59:29Z Tetsumi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T04:02:50Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T04:22:06Z drmeister: The problem is in my CONVERT-FUNCTIONS - I haven't tracked it down completely but the UNWIND is fine before and has that input after. 2015-07-08T04:23:13Z beach: OK, so I'll let you look at it some more? 2015-07-08T04:23:32Z drmeister: beach: Ah, your UNWIND doesn't have inputs - but my INDEXED-UNWIND does. 2015-07-08T04:24:11Z drmeister: It's coming back to me now. 2015-07-08T04:24:28Z drmeister: I should have specialized LABEL so that it prints a different label. 2015-07-08T04:25:13Z drmeister: My INDEXED-UNWIND instruction needs a value to know where it will unwind to. 2015-07-08T04:25:57Z drmeister: This was necessary to use C++ exception handling to implement UNWIND. 2015-07-08T04:26:04Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T04:26:49Z beach: OK, then let's look at the HIR after captured variables have been processed. 2015-07-08T04:27:28Z beach: drmeister: Aside from that input, I think it looks OK. 2015-07-08T04:30:54Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T04:33:02Z beach: drmeister: The problem is related to your input of unwind. 2015-07-08T04:33:14Z beach: Because that input results in the Fetch. 2015-07-08T04:33:50Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T04:33:53Z drmeister: Ok. 2015-07-08T04:34:50Z beach: I see in the phase 1 HIR that the variable that is input to the unwind is captured. 2015-07-08T04:34:54Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/6auUkQUJ/mir.pdf 2015-07-08T04:35:03Z beach: It is written by one function and read by another. 2015-07-08T04:35:11Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-08T04:35:44Z beach: Definitely related to that. 2015-07-08T04:35:49Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T04:36:29Z beach: Oh, but now it looks fine I think. 2015-07-08T04:36:38Z drmeister: Ok, so I have to provide an closed over environment 2015-07-08T04:36:40Z beach: Because you actually create a cell. 2015-07-08T04:36:51Z beach: Oh, no my bad. 2015-07-08T04:37:43Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-08T04:38:16Z milosn quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-08T04:38:25Z beach: I am not thinking straight. 2015-07-08T04:38:56Z beach: I guess I don't understand what the input to the unwind contains. 2015-07-08T04:40:06Z drmeister: I'm trying to recall the details. 2015-07-08T04:40:26Z beach: Normally, when you have this kind of input, it's that there is a constant that has been hoisted. 2015-07-08T04:40:40Z drmeister: When a function is entered that has a landing pad I think it pushes a value onto a stack 2015-07-08T04:40:43Z beach: So, in that case, the top-level function must provide an environment with that constant in it. 2015-07-08T04:41:43Z drmeister: I think the INDEXED-UNWIND throws a C++ exception with that frame-id value and the landing pads keep unwinding until they get an exception that contains their matching frame-id value. 2015-07-08T04:42:17Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T04:42:37Z beach: The question here is who supplies the value of that input to the unwind. 2015-07-08T04:43:58Z drmeister: Here - I'll set up a case that works. 2015-07-08T04:44:23Z beach: If it is the output of the landing-pad-named-enter instruction, I assume that it has to be passed as an argument. 2015-07-08T04:44:51Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-07-08T04:44:53Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-08T04:45:12Z __009__kk joined #lisp 2015-07-08T04:45:15Z drmeister: Which of the outputs of the enter instruction is the closed over environment? Is it the first output? 2015-07-08T04:45:25Z beach: Yes, I think so. 2015-07-08T04:45:42Z beach: So here it is G2092:0 and it is not used. 2015-07-08T04:46:12Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-07-08T04:47:13Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T04:47:54Z beach: But then, since G2094:0 is a captured variable, it must have a cell for it in the static environment. 2015-07-08T04:48:19Z drmeister: Which HIR/MIR graph are you referring to? I posted several. 2015-07-08T04:49:04Z beach: http://i.imgur.com/3jCSo9v.png 2015-07-08T04:49:21Z beach: This is the phase 1 HIR. 2015-07-08T04:49:39Z beach: In that graph, G2094:0 is captured. 2015-07-08T04:50:05Z beach: It is an argument to the function defined by landing-pad-named-enter. 2015-07-08T04:50:12Z __009__kk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T04:50:46Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T04:51:58Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T04:52:04Z beach: So I guess a cell should be created for it, and written and then that cell should be passed to en enclose of the enter NIL:0 instruction. 2015-07-08T04:52:21Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-08T04:52:24Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-08T04:52:58Z beach: Here https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/6auUkQUJ/mir.pdf 2015-07-08T04:53:04Z beach: you do create a cell. 2015-07-08T04:53:20Z beach: And you do put the argument into that cell. 2015-07-08T04:53:57Z beach: And that cell is passed to the enclose, so it looks fine. 2015-07-08T04:54:27Z beach: Looks good to me. 2015-07-08T04:55:03Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T04:55:04Z __009__kk joined #lisp 2015-07-08T04:56:27Z drmeister: Then the question is why is there a Fetch in the outer function? 2015-07-08T04:56:43Z beach: Yes, that's a good question. 2015-07-08T04:56:54Z drmeister: That's what is causing the crash. 2015-07-08T04:57:07Z beach: OK, I was looking at the wrong fetch. :( 2015-07-08T04:57:47Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-08T04:58:14Z drmeister: Also, a bit of housekeeping - why doesn't the label of unwind print as "indexed-unwind" - I had specialized (defmethod cleavir-ir-graphviz::label ((instr indexed-unwind-instruction)) all along. If that had worked we might have saved some time. 2015-07-08T04:58:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/zYTkYHOC/ 2015-07-08T05:00:41Z beach: I see no particular reason why the outermost function should supply anything to the landing-pad-named-enter. 2015-07-08T05:00:54Z beach: Let me do some conversion here and see if I get the same thing. 2015-07-08T05:01:17Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/4A6EGMca/mirAnnotated.pdf 2015-07-08T05:02:13Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-08T05:02:24Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-08T05:02:41Z drmeister: I've annotated the MIR. The red oval surrounds the offending Fetch. The cyan oval contains the closed over environment that contains the cell Fetched by that Fetch - does it not? It's being fed into FORM - why? 2015-07-08T05:03:16Z beach: I also did process-captured-variables, and I don't have that fetch. 2015-07-08T05:03:26Z beach: But I do have a lot more temporaries. 2015-07-08T05:03:37Z beach: Are you sure you removed the call to eliminate-superfluous-temporaries? 2015-07-08T05:04:19Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-07-08T05:04:35Z drmeister: Let me check to make sure I don't call it somewhere else. 2015-07-08T05:04:43Z drmeister: I'm starting to grow paranoid 2015-07-08T05:05:07Z drmeister: Yes, it's commented out 2015-07-08T05:05:19Z beach: Maybe I do have that fetch after all. 2015-07-08T05:06:52Z drmeister: Could you display your HIR? 2015-07-08T05:07:35Z beach: I could, but it wouldn't help much. 2015-07-08T05:07:43Z beach: It looks very different from yours. 2015-07-08T05:08:37Z beach: OK, I am pretty sure I also have a fetch in the topmost function. 2015-07-08T05:08:45Z beach: I need to figure out why. 2015-07-08T05:09:06Z drmeister: It's this transformation that inserts it: cleavir-hir-transformations:process-captured-variables 2015-07-08T05:09:11Z drmeister: Which makes sense. 2015-07-08T05:09:14Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-08T05:09:17Z drmeister: It processes captured variables. 2015-07-08T05:09:24Z drmeister is learning 2015-07-08T05:09:36Z beach: I just called it, and I do have a top-level fetch as well. 2015-07-08T05:09:49Z beach: It will take me a large part of the day to figure out why. 2015-07-08T05:10:59Z drmeister: It appears that prior to that transformation every ENTER-INSTRUCTION has as its first output the closed over environment but that closed over environment is not the input for anything - do you see that as well? 2015-07-08T05:11:24Z beach: Yes, but it is used by the transformation. 2015-07-08T05:11:35Z beach: Nothing to worry about. 2015-07-08T05:12:17Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/KlPFGyF.png 2015-07-08T05:12:24Z drmeister: That was before the PROCESS-CAPTURED-VARIABLES transformation. 2015-07-08T05:12:36Z beach: Yes, I know. 2015-07-08T05:12:50Z beach: Though perhaps it should be a separate variable for each function. 2015-07-08T05:12:52Z drmeister: G1856 is an output of three ENTER-INSTRUCTIONs but not the input for anything. 2015-07-08T05:12:59Z beach: Yes, yes, yes. I know. 2015-07-08T05:13:04Z beach: It's the static environment. 2015-07-08T05:13:06Z drmeister: Doesn't it need to be an input of something to generate a closure? 2015-07-08T05:13:27Z beach: It is not used until captured variables are processed. 2015-07-08T05:13:41Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-08T05:14:03Z beach: Before captured variables are processed the sharing across functions is implicit. 2015-07-08T05:14:04Z drmeister: Oh, I see what you are saying. It's a placeholder until captured variables are identified. 2015-07-08T05:14:13Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-08T05:14:23Z drmeister: So are there any shared variables in there? 2015-07-08T05:14:28Z drmeister: Looking... 2015-07-08T05:14:32Z beach: No. 2015-07-08T05:14:50Z beach: Only the input to your unwind 2015-07-08T05:15:05Z beach: Nothing in the top-level function. 2015-07-08T05:15:20Z drmeister: There would have to be a shared variable between the Start function (top-level) and one of the other functions - correct? 2015-07-08T05:16:10Z beach: "would have"? In order for there to be a fetch. Yes, I think so. 2015-07-08T05:16:21Z drmeister: Here it is right after PROCESS-CAPTURED-VARIABLES: http://i.imgur.com/unCqPsD.png 2015-07-08T05:16:50Z beach: Right. 2015-07-08T05:17:17Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3-dev) 2015-07-08T05:17:25Z drmeister: There's a clue here - isn't there? 2015-07-08T05:17:35Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-08T05:17:39Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-08T05:17:57Z drmeister: G2034 will be the same cell as G2032 - correct? 2015-07-08T05:18:26Z beach: Yes, I suppose so. 2015-07-08T05:18:57Z drmeister: So for some reason it's being used to initialize FORM 2015-07-08T05:19:01Z drmeister: Hmm 2015-07-08T05:19:04Z beach: It is probably NIL. 2015-07-08T05:19:15Z drmeister: I'm not leading anywhere - I'm just trying to learn to read this better. 2015-07-08T05:20:39Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-08T05:25:11Z mlrutherford quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T05:26:06Z beach: drmeister: There is no point in your waiting for me to fix it in real time. 2015-07-08T05:26:20Z drmeister: No problem. 2015-07-08T05:26:47Z drmeister: I was just providing as much support as I could while we were investigating. 2015-07-08T05:26:58Z beach: Sure, thanks. 2015-07-08T05:27:23Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out why I'm not getting these labels: 2015-07-08T05:27:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/fXhGT33B/ 2015-07-08T05:27:34Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T05:27:57Z drmeister: We could have saved some time if they had been printing and you saw that they weren't exactly your UNWIND-INSTRUCTIONs 2015-07-08T05:28:00Z beach: drmeister: do #'label and then use the SLIME inspector to see what methods you have. 2015-07-08T05:28:24Z beach: or #'cleavir-ir-graphviz::label I guess. 2015-07-08T05:28:55Z __009__kk left #lisp 2015-07-08T05:29:01Z beach: [assuming Clasp provides the methods to SLIME] 2015-07-08T05:29:13Z drmeister: Yeah :-) 2015-07-08T05:29:20Z drmeister: Let's see 2015-07-08T05:29:46Z drmeister: So #'cleavir-ir-graphviz::label and then C-c S-i? 2015-07-08T05:29:57Z beach: I use the mouse. 2015-07-08T05:30:16Z beach: Right click on the function presentation, I think. 2015-07-08T05:30:23Z beach: My fingers know it. I don't. 2015-07-08T05:31:00Z drmeister: No, it doesn't provide that yet. 2015-07-08T05:31:32Z beach: "it" = Clasp and "that" = the list of methods? 2015-07-08T05:31:46Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T05:32:35Z beach: mop generic-function-methods 2015-07-08T05:32:36Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-methods.html 2015-07-08T05:34:19Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-07-08T05:36:30Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-08T05:37:17Z drmeister: beach: Yes, Clasp (it) doesn't provide the list of methods (that). 2015-07-08T05:37:39Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T05:38:24Z drmeister: beach: I see why the label isn't working. It's because of the pink arrow you specialize on draw-instruction. 2015-07-08T05:38:37Z drmeister: Should I specialize on draw-instruction? 2015-07-08T05:39:25Z drmeister: I guess I should specialize on draw-instruction for INDEXED-UNWIND-INSTRUCTION 2015-07-08T05:40:36Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-07-08T05:41:10Z akkad: hi 2015-07-08T05:41:36Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-08T05:41:45Z beach: drmeister: Yes, do that. 2015-07-08T05:41:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-08T05:41:59Z drmeister: Hi jackdaniel 2015-07-08T05:42:24Z beach: drmeister: There is probably a reason why LABEL is not exported. 2015-07-08T05:42:38Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-07-08T05:42:58Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T05:43:25Z drmeister: That would be it. I see the value of not adding AST nodes and new instructions but I don't know how I would do this without them. 2015-07-08T05:44:41Z beach: Oh, it *is* exported. Hmm. 2015-07-08T05:44:57Z drmeister: I think I asked for that to be exported. 2015-07-08T05:45:04Z beach: Heh, OK. 2015-07-08T05:48:50Z ecraven: regarding slime, is master the right branch to do patches against? 2015-07-08T05:51:17Z beach: Time to get to work! 2015-07-08T05:51:19Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-08T05:52:36Z alusion quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-08T05:52:44Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-08T05:58:37Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-08T05:58:37Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T05:58:41Z zacts: hi 2015-07-08T05:58:58Z zacts: hm... I just can't make up my effing mind. 2015-07-08T05:59:15Z zacts: learn CL and scheme before Haskell? or learn Haskell before CL and scheme 2015-07-08T05:59:27Z ecraven: just learn them all 2015-07-08T05:59:34Z Zhivago: It doesn't much matter -- they are quite unrelated. 2015-07-08T06:00:00Z Tristam quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T06:00:05Z zacts: Zhivago: oh really? 2015-07-08T06:00:12Z Zhivago: Yes. 2015-07-08T06:00:23Z zacts: So the functional aspect of Haskell won't directly carry over into scheme or lisp? 2015-07-08T06:00:34Z zacts: make that, common lisp, not 'lisp' 2015-07-08T06:00:42Z Zhivago: schema and CL are eager procedural languages. 2015-07-08T06:00:48Z Zhivago: Haskel is a lazy functional language. 2015-07-08T06:00:50Z zacts: eager? 2015-07-08T06:00:51Z moei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T06:00:57Z Zhivago: Yes. 2015-07-08T06:01:10Z zacts: no, I don't know if eager is a technical term in this context? 2015-07-08T06:01:11Z zacts: :-) 2015-07-08T06:01:19Z Zhivago: It is a technical term in this context. 2015-07-08T06:01:24Z zacts: what does it mean? 2015-07-08T06:01:26Z moei joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:01:32Z Zhivago: It is the opposite of lazy. 2015-07-08T06:01:38Z zacts: oh 2015-07-08T06:01:41Z zacts: I see, ok 2015-07-08T06:02:04Z zacts: ecraven: well of course 2015-07-08T06:02:12Z zacts: but in which order? 2015-07-08T06:02:34Z zacts: SICP mentions laziness at the end of the book I think...? 2015-07-08T06:02:40Z pinterface1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:03:00Z zacts: so perhaps scheme and CL would give a more well rounded picture of different styles of programming... I'm wondering 2015-07-08T06:03:07Z akkad: loading drakma on ecl I Get Cannot modify locked readtable #. 2015-07-08T06:03:09Z ecraven: zacts: the one with the smallest specification is Scheme 2015-07-08T06:03:23Z pinterface quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-08T06:03:24Z Zhivago: zacts: Perhaps. 2015-07-08T06:03:42Z french_boy joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:03:42Z ecraven: the one with the best libraries might be CL 2015-07-08T06:03:50Z ecraven: certainly the one least like other languages is haskell :{) 2015-07-08T06:04:03Z zacts: ok 2015-07-08T06:04:11Z zacts: I think SICP 2015-07-08T06:04:33Z french_boy: should i learn haskell from great good or another book? 2015-07-08T06:04:43Z french_boy: or should i learn lisp (scheme) from SICP? 2015-07-08T06:04:44Z zacts: french_boy: I've heard the great good book sucks these days 2015-07-08T06:04:54Z zacts: from bitemyapp on #haskell-beginners 2015-07-08T06:05:05Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T06:05:23Z theos: french_boy learn common lisp! 2015-07-08T06:05:26Z zacts: everyone on the haskell channels recommends bitemyapp's learnhaskell github page for a path to learn Haskell 2015-07-08T06:05:29Z zacts: but hm... 2015-07-08T06:05:38Z zacts: I'm not there yet, obviously... so just fwiw 2015-07-08T06:05:53Z french_boy: which functional language is actually worth my time: haskell or lisp? 2015-07-08T06:06:02Z Zhivago: lisp is procedural. 2015-07-08T06:06:10Z french_boy: simon peyton jones claims that haskell is useless, so i'm skeptical. 2015-07-08T06:06:18Z Zhivago: As to what your time is worth, I do not know. 2015-07-08T06:06:34Z akkad ponders where the idea that lisp is functional comes from 2015-07-08T06:06:44Z theos: french_boy common lisp is functional too 2015-07-08T06:06:48Z ecraven: akkad: it can be, can't it? 2015-07-08T06:06:54Z Zhivago: It lends itself to a functional style of programming. 2015-07-08T06:06:55Z ecraven: lisp can be whatever (and often has been) 2015-07-08T06:07:03Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:07:10Z french_boy: so, as a first language, you guys recommend lisp? 2015-07-08T06:07:15Z french_boy: (common lisp) 2015-07-08T06:07:32Z theos: french_boy first and last. you can make your own languages with CL 2015-07-08T06:08:47Z french_boy: but isn't the "wizard book" sicp taught in scheme? also, how good is a book called land of lisp? 2015-07-08T06:09:34Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T06:10:12Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:10:38Z akkad: "can be functional" vs IS functional. 2015-07-08T06:10:44Z akkad: bash can be functional :P 2015-07-08T06:11:00Z theos: if it can be functional then it IS functional 2015-07-08T06:11:04Z ecraven: french_boy: there's also "realm of racket" I think 2015-07-08T06:11:20Z izabera is now known as izaber 2015-07-08T06:11:23Z izaber is now known as izabera 2015-07-08T06:15:21Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-08T06:15:38Z theos: french_boy learn lisp can be challenging. but learning a new language is challenging. learn CL macros. learn CLOS. 2015-07-08T06:15:57Z theos: learn/learning 2015-07-08T06:16:13Z hegel joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:17:18Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T06:18:20Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:19:30Z akkad: "if php can be OO, then it is OO" 2015-07-08T06:20:35Z akkad: Easy to spot a truly functional language. "Does it let me compile my crap code and do the right thing despite my incorrect usage, or do I fight the compiler until my middle finger bleeds" 2015-07-08T06:23:08Z pranavrc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T06:23:45Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:25:04Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:28:43Z dvnmk joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:30:54Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2015-07-08T06:30:54Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:31:11Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-07-08T06:35:07Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T06:37:05Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-08T06:40:05Z jackdaniel: 3 classes of compilers: functional, GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) and FIGO (first in, garbage out) ^_^ 2015-07-08T06:40:24Z jackdaniel: and please, don't force me to defend this joke :p 2015-07-08T06:41:14Z pinterface1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T06:41:31Z H4ns: is sbcl 1.2.13 known to contain bugs in optimization diagnostics? i see it fail while compiling flexi-streams, allegedly because of an invalid format string in sbcl 2015-07-08T06:41:36Z dvnmk quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Is that why cl-memcached fails with an error saying that :|utf-8| is an illegal encoding? 2015-07-08T08:21:20Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T08:21:32Z jackdaniel: loke: I'm afraid yes. I'll wrap new release in upcoming month, but until then 15.2.21 is best for nixes 2015-07-08T08:21:38Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:21:46Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:21:58Z mvilleneuve quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T08:22:04Z jackdaniel: or develop branch, which is not throughfully tested, but considered stable 2015-07-08T08:22:24Z wbooze joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:22:47Z loke: jackdaniel: Is this why the cffi stuff fails too? 2015-07-08T08:22:56Z loke: Specifically, the cffi-grovel 2015-07-08T08:23:08Z jackdaniel: I don't know 2015-07-08T08:23:27Z jackdaniel: could you test it with develop branch and submit a bugreport if there still is a problem? 2015-07-08T08:23:41Z loke: jackdaniel: Which branch/repository is that? 2015-07-08T08:23:50Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/commits/develop 2015-07-08T08:24:08Z jackdaniel: branch develop, repository on gitlab 2015-07-08T08:24:46Z jackdaniel: there is also automatic mirror on common-lisp.net 2015-07-08T08:25:33Z loke: what's the actual git repository url to clone? 2015-07-08T08:27:01Z jackdaniel: git clone https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl.git -b develop 2015-07-08T08:27:20Z jackdaniel: altough develop branch is default , so -b develop is redundant 2015-07-08T08:28:05Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T08:28:17Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:30:02Z loke: thanks 2015-07-08T08:30:35Z jackdaniel: np :) 2015-07-08T08:31:00Z loke: cloning now. Gitlab is pretty slow 2015-07-08T08:33:01Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T08:33:25Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:35:38Z loke: still fails by the way 2015-07-08T08:36:06Z loke: I'm filing a bug report 2015-07-08T08:37:40Z akkad: wow, 73k vs 14->40MB. ecl must not be including all the quicklisp stuff 2015-07-08T08:38:05Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:38:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit 2015-07-08T08:38:14Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T08:39:24Z theos quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-08T08:40:20Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:41:39Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-08T08:41:53Z loke: Issue 89 2015-07-08T08:42:03Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:42:51Z jackdaniel: loke: thanks 2015-07-08T08:42:55Z jackdaniel: akkad: what do you mean? 2015-07-08T08:43:58Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T08:44:08Z not_tfl quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-08T08:45:12Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:46:17Z akkad: standalone delivered binary size 2015-07-08T08:46:22Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:46:23Z jackdaniel: loke: it can't find amqp.h (don't know what this header is) 2015-07-08T08:46:40Z akkad: rabbitmq? 2015-07-08T08:46:53Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T08:47:17Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-08T08:47:35Z jackdaniel: akkad: ecl is mainly libecl and encodings by size, ecl is just a repl 2015-07-08T08:47:56Z jackdaniel: you can strip lib binary if you find it too huge 2015-07-08T08:47:59Z akkad: that would explain a lot 2015-07-08T08:48:11Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T08:49:08Z jackdaniel: if you build against local gmp and bdwgc, it should be even smaller 2015-07-08T08:49:25Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:49:30Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T08:49:52Z akkad: k 2015-07-08T08:50:28Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:50:28Z jackdaniel: by local I mean system pre-installed (if you have them, configure should autodetect it) 2015-07-08T08:50:43Z akkad: yeah it's just going to move the size to libraries it links to 2015-07-08T08:50:55Z akkad: sbcl bin is going to be easier to deliver 2015-07-08T08:51:29Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-08T08:51:39Z loke: jackdaniel: It would be nice to be able to DISASSEMBLE compiled functions in ecl 2015-07-08T08:51:51Z loke: I.e. to see the generated C code. 2015-07-08T08:51:51Z jackdaniel: I agree :) 2015-07-08T08:52:04Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:52:08Z emanuelz quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T08:52:10Z loke: is there so other way to see the generated code? 2015-07-08T08:52:20Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-07-08T08:52:25Z phadthai: you can disassemble the bytecode versions, but for now you'd have to use objdump to disassemble the ecl compiled code 2015-07-08T08:52:33Z jackdaniel: but don't remember how to switch it 2015-07-08T08:52:43Z phadthai: if I remember someone had some slime patch for such 2015-07-08T08:52:59Z jackdaniel: loke: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15163967/ecl-dump-c-source-for-every-compilation-unit-and-its-dependencies 2015-07-08T08:53:14Z jackdaniel: (setf c::*delete-files* nil) 2015-07-08T08:53:43Z jackdaniel: akkad: if you are concerned on size, then sbcl doesn't seem perfect choice either 2015-07-08T08:54:51Z progo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:55:00Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T08:55:38Z akkad: you take what you can :P 2015-07-08T08:55:49Z akkad: I'm just seeing what the design tradeoffs are between the two 2015-07-08T08:55:59Z mlamari_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T08:56:14Z salva quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T08:56:24Z mlamari_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T08:56:50Z jackdaniel: akkad: I think for both sbcl end ecl you can reduce many binaries sizes with approach taken with cl-launch - creating multibinary (like busybox) with shared fasls etc 2015-07-08T08:57:05Z jackdaniel: or any supported implementation essentially 2015-07-08T08:57:14Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T08:58:22Z akkad: nice 2015-07-08T08:58:26Z akkad: will check that out 2015-07-08T08:58:45Z jackdaniel: also see, what are real sizes after building standalone binaries - it might be smaller 2015-07-08T09:00:20Z akkad: yeah virtual lib sizes will complicate it 2015-07-08T09:00:41Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:00:41Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2015-07-08T09:00:41Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:01:41Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:02:03Z jackdaniel: loke: how is rabbit library called? I don't have it on system, so no wonder it fails here 2015-07-08T09:02:55Z loke: What linux distributin are you on? 2015-07-08T09:02:58Z dvnmk quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-08T09:03:01Z loke: You need rabbitmq-c 2015-07-08T09:03:06Z loke: It's in most distros. 2015-07-08T09:03:13Z jackdaniel: void, but I have also guix, neither has rabbit* on repos 2015-07-08T09:03:30Z loke: https://github.com/alanxz/rabbitmq-c 2015-07-08T09:03:45Z user9 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:04:05Z user9 is now known as user4 2015-07-08T09:04:24Z user4 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T09:04:39Z user9 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:04:40Z user9 is now known as user4 2015-07-08T09:04:58Z user4 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T09:05:07Z user4 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:06:06Z larion joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:06:23Z akkad: wow, that blew up. /me sticks with sbcl... ecl just grew to consume double the ram 2015-07-08T09:06:42Z loke: jackdaniel: Is there an ECL version of condition-wait that takes a timeout? 2015-07-08T09:07:18Z loke: I used an extension to bordeaux-thread:condition-wait that accepts a timeout, but I only support abcl, ccl and sbcl right now. I'd like to add ecl support. 2015-07-08T09:07:45Z loke: bordeaux calls into mp:condition-variable-wait, but it doesn't seem to accept a timeout 2015-07-08T09:07:57Z akkad: now if you can deliver static bins 2015-07-08T09:08:18Z loke: Oh wait... condition-variable-timedwait seems to be what I need 2015-07-08T09:08:22Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:08:33Z loke: argh... but it's not implemented. I keep answereding my own questions here 2015-07-08T09:09:10Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:09:36Z jackdaniel: loke: I'll check in free time if you fill issue with label "feature" 2015-07-08T09:09:58Z jackdaniel: I've got to go now, be back in few hours 2015-07-08T09:10:14Z loke: jackdaniel: thanks! 2015-07-08T09:10:29Z jackdaniel: sure :) 2015-07-08T09:12:42Z loke: Issue 90 2015-07-08T09:16:52Z user4 quit (Quit: user4) 2015-07-08T09:19:43Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:20:00Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T09:20:53Z user4 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:20:53Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:21:32Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:23:41Z user4 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T09:23:52Z user4 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:24:53Z user4 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T09:27:21Z kcj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T09:29:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T09:30:05Z harish_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T09:30:11Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-08T09:31:22Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T09:31:53Z ramkrsna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T09:32:39Z Matthew joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:32:59Z Matthew: Hey guys, I have one problem and I can't find solution quickly enough... 2015-07-08T09:33:02Z Matthew is now known as Guest49287 2015-07-08T09:33:12Z Guest49287: How can I access last element of an array/ a string? 2015-07-08T09:33:58Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:35:38Z Shinmera: clhs elt 2015-07-08T09:35:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_elt.htm 2015-07-08T09:35:40Z Shinmera: clhs length 2015-07-08T09:35:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_length.htm 2015-07-08T09:38:00Z edgar-rft: Guest49287: (aref (length )) 2015-07-08T09:38:11Z Shinmera: edgar-rft: That will signal an error. 2015-07-08T09:38:24Z edgar-rft: in which case? 2015-07-08T09:38:28Z Shinmera: In all cases. 2015-07-08T09:38:37Z Guest49287: 1- length 2015-07-08T09:38:38Z Guest49287: thanks 2015-07-08T09:38:55Z edgar-rft: oh, I see, I'm dumb... 2015-07-08T09:38:55Z Guest49287: edgar-rft: arrays are indexed from 0 :) 2015-07-08T09:40:09Z Shinmera: Actually it won't signal an error in one case, but it will still give you unexpected behaviour: If your array has a fill-pointer and has an actual array size greater than the fill-pointer. 2015-07-08T09:40:48Z Shinmera: Hence why you should use ELT, which checks that it is within bounds of the fill-pointer, if it exists. 2015-07-08T09:43:01Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T09:44:50Z Shinmera: (in this case of last element it won't matter of course because length will be equal to the fill-pointer, if a fill pointer exists) 2015-07-08T09:45:37Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:45:43Z edgar-rft: Thanks Sinmera! I just found ELT's note in CLHS: "AREF may be used to access vector elements that are beyond the vector's fill pointer." 2015-07-08T09:48:30Z pinterface quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T09:48:35Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:49:26Z pinterface joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:51:26Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T09:52:12Z edgar-rft: But even then a simple ELT with an index of (1- length) will signal a TYPE-ERROR with empty strings or arrays: (elt "" (1- (length ""))) => Error: Invalid index -1, what means you must additionally test for empty sequences. 2015-07-08T09:52:30Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:53:04Z Shinmera: Sure, but an empty sequence doesn't have a last element to begin with, so that's not really part of the original question. 2015-07-08T09:53:15Z edgar-rft: That's true. 2015-07-08T09:53:48Z stux|RC quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T09:54:02Z blandest joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:56:54Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T09:57:43Z dim: hehe, While it might be syntactically convenient for some common applications in compiled-only languages under Unix, MAKE does not represent a theory of how to maintain systems. 2015-07-08T09:58:15Z dvnmk joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:58:18Z Shinmera: It always struck me odd that Make is seen as anything else but a bit more convenient batch files. 2015-07-08T09:58:38Z Shinmera: Since that's really all it is. 2015-07-08T09:59:07Z p_l: Shinmera: Well, I see it as an experiment that escaped the lab... :D 2015-07-08T09:59:14Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2015-07-08T09:59:51Z Shinmera: p_l: I wonder how many things in common usage today are escaped test subjects. 2015-07-08T10:00:36Z dim: well I prefer makefiles to complex shell scripts, but really I'm not writing shell scripts anymore and if possible not ever again 2015-07-08T10:00:51Z dim: that said, even when I like Make for what it does, it's quite limited 2015-07-08T10:00:56Z Shinmera: Colleen: worse 2015-07-08T10:00:56Z Colleen: Just because something is worse does not excuse something bad. 2015-07-08T10:01:03Z dim: hehe, nice one 2015-07-08T10:01:57Z Shinmera: Anyway, build systems are difficult to get right because of the large amount of variety in what you might want to do, and the complex relationships that arise to properly describe such a system. 2015-07-08T10:02:33Z dim: scons, cmake, make, qmake, gnumake, and plenty others have tried, yes 2015-07-08T10:02:33Z p_l: Shinmera: /bin/dd's cli arguments and even the name itself are an elaborate joke that is missed on most people these days :) 2015-07-08T10:02:51Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:03:14Z p_l: Make's use of TAB character is legacy of it being an experiment in using lex/yacc 2015-07-08T10:04:56Z dim: dd -- copy and convert ; cc was already taken 2015-07-08T10:05:11Z dim: must be my favorite unix humour instance ;-) 2015-07-08T10:06:02Z loke: dim: as was cd and dc 2015-07-08T10:06:04Z p_l: dim: actually it's older than CC 2015-07-08T10:06:19Z p_l: though that one is also good :D 2015-07-08T10:06:46Z loke: You guys know about any library to help converting sexps between CL and clojure? 2015-07-08T10:06:53Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:06:56Z mrottenkolber: Hi 2015-07-08T10:07:03Z p_l: dim: dd = data definition or data declaration, iirc, from IBM jCL 2015-07-08T10:07:49Z mrottenkolber: I get "SWANK/BACKEND:ACTIVATE-STEPPING not implemented" when pressing S on a frame in Slime on Clozure CL. Any ideas whats wrong? 2015-07-08T10:07:54Z loke: http://www.tutorialspoint.com/jcl/jcl_dd_statement.htm 2015-07-08T10:08:10Z loke: mrottenkolber: ccl doesn't support stepping, does it? 2015-07-08T10:08:43Z mrottenkolber: loke: I didn't know that. 2015-07-08T10:08:43Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T10:11:09Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:12:52Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-08T10:14:39Z mrottenkolber: :( 2015-07-08T10:15:04Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:15:09Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:18:35Z ronh quit 2015-07-08T10:18:51Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-08T10:18:51Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-08T10:19:11Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:24:06Z pinterface1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:24:42Z pinterface quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-08T10:29:54Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:30:55Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:34:15Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T10:35:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:38:10Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:40:59Z pie_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:50:11Z pinterface joined #lisp 2015-07-08T10:50:31Z pinterface1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-08T10:50:54Z dvnmk quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I don't really know what you want from your example. 2015-07-08T11:36:18Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: check out backwards-parenscript (via bhyde) - it does what you're asking for 2015-07-08T11:36:32Z gabriel_laddel: "structural pattern matching" 2015-07-08T11:36:44Z gabriel_laddel: backwards parenscript doesn't compile though 2015-07-08T11:36:56Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-08T11:37:53Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: an example https://github.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune/blob/master/browser/js-to-ps.lisp#L137 2015-07-08T11:38:04Z chrnybo: Shinmera: I've unwounded a truth table in order to give helpful feedback on which parameters to a function that are missing or superfluous. Just wanted to narrow it down. 2015-07-08T11:38:24Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T11:39:59Z dtw: CASE uses EQL (object identity) for comparison. You need COND for other tests. 2015-07-08T11:40:46Z chrnybo: Shinmera: ... narrow it down to what I was wondering about. 2015-07-08T11:41:33Z chrnybo: Nice to know that there wasn't something obvious missing. COND it is, then. 2015-07-08T11:41:54Z Shinmera: chrnybo: I still don't really know what you mean, but no matter. As dtw said, you want COND and EQUAL or EQUALP. 2015-07-08T11:42:31Z Shinmera: Obviously you can write a macro around COND that gives you the same thing as CASE but with something other than EQL as test. 2015-07-08T11:45:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T11:48:26Z chrnybo: Shinmera: Thanks. 2015-07-08T11:49:14Z segmond quit (Quit: Fail) 2015-07-08T11:51:58Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T11:54:12Z scymtym: chrnybo: have a look at ALEXANDRIA:SWITCH 2015-07-08T11:55:41Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-08T11:58:09Z chrnybo: I should have give a clue as to the scope here, I'm refactoring code that was a set of ifs to ensure that a function either got the arg A, OR the args B AND C. So importing a library is too much. 2015-07-08T11:59:38Z ynchromeshs: chrnybo: Alexandria is a pretty great library full of lots of useful stuff, it's well worth a look. 2015-07-08T11:59:52Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: ? if you're refactoring, just ql:quickload the package, do your refactoring and then with-open-file write out the result? 2015-07-08T12:00:10Z gabriel_laddel: it won't add it to your project... 2015-07-08T12:01:38Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:02:34Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:04:02Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:06:27Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:07:55Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:09:11Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:11:03Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:15:59Z chrnybo: gabriel_laddel: I don't quite follow? 2015-07-08T12:16:25Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: you're using quicklisp right? 2015-07-08T12:17:15Z chrnybo: gabriel_laddel: yes, I use ql for libraries. 2015-07-08T12:17:43Z gabriel_laddel: if you're doing a once-off automated refactoring then it costs you nothing to quickload and use the most appropriate tool for the job 2015-07-08T12:18:45Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: so, just do it with fare-quasiquote, which is exactly what you're looking for. You don't even have to save it to a file, just (named-readtables:in-readtable :fare-quasiquote) (match ...) at the repl 2015-07-08T12:18:50Z chrnybo: Ah, I nothing automated here, I used a too fancy term for simple rewriting, as in attempt to understand the code, rewrite, cross fingers. 2015-07-08T12:19:13Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: hrm. 2015-07-08T12:19:36Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: well, from what I've heard+seen here, what you're looking for is still fare-quasiqoute 2015-07-08T12:19:46Z gabriel_laddel: "structural pattern matching against lists" 2015-07-08T12:20:01Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:21:21Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:22:51Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:24:34Z yasha_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T12:28:57Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:29:48Z chrnybo: gabriel_laddel: In which file is MATCH defined? I have ql'ed fare-quasiquote and fare-quasiquote-extras, but can't apropos it. 2015-07-08T12:30:54Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: lol 2015-07-08T12:31:00Z gabriel_laddel: of course - it's in optima 2015-07-08T12:31:03Z gabriel_laddel: sorry about that 2015-07-08T12:31:30Z gabriel_laddel: (the package optima, in match.lisp) 2015-07-08T12:31:43Z gabriel_laddel: quasi-quote modifies the read table such that you can do list matching with optima 2015-07-08T12:32:14Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:35:20Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T12:36:13Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:36:30Z chrnybo: Mmm. What a glorious yak I got to shave. 2015-07-08T12:36:59Z chrnybo: -> nilp is not defined. 2015-07-08T12:37:19Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:37:25Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: nilp? 2015-07-08T12:37:52Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T12:39:25Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:39:30Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:39:49Z chrnybo: Used in the macroexpansion of optima:match. 2015-07-08T12:41:28Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: let me check my version number 2015-07-08T12:42:48Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: version "1.0" (from .asd file) and commit b2b9e32 2015-07-08T12:43:11Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: I reverted optima to this particular version because of some issues it was having with Alexandria... 2015-07-08T12:43:19Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:45:55Z chrnybo: gabriel_laddel: Ok if I stumble back to using COND, please? 2015-07-08T12:46:06Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: yeah, sure thing 2015-07-08T12:46:21Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: sorry about that. 2015-07-08T12:46:35Z gabriel_laddel: I faced this *exact* problem - was very excited about optima and it filled my need exactly. 2015-07-08T12:46:39Z gabriel_laddel: :/ 2015-07-08T12:47:21Z dvnmk joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:48:32Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:49:17Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:49:20Z dvnmk quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T12:50:37Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:51:35Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:52:25Z dvnmk joined #lisp 2015-07-08T12:53:11Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:59:03Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:59:26Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:59:37Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:59:46Z Tuxedo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:59:46Z j_king quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T12:59:53Z Tuxedo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T13:00:05Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T13:00:45Z copec joined #lisp 2015-07-08T13:00:50Z nightfly quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T13:00:57Z j_king joined #lisp 2015-07-08T13:01:42Z nightfly joined #lisp 2015-07-08T13:02:33Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T13:03:12Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-07-08T13:03:55Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-07-08T13:05:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T13:05:50Z dvnmk quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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than later. 2015-07-08T15:53:50Z H4ns: goglosh: i'd not use it for learning for that reason. 2015-07-08T15:54:04Z goglosh: I guess you're right 2015-07-08T15:54:27Z goglosh: and as an cl-like interface for emacs? 2015-07-08T15:54:30Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-08T15:54:38Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T15:54:39Z gabriel_laddel: goglosh: yeah, don't use it. 2015-07-08T15:54:40Z contrapunctus: goglosh: emacs-cl could use some love. 2015-07-08T15:54:43Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-08T15:54:56Z contrapunctus: (but...it'll probably need knowledge of both Elisp and CL) 2015-07-08T15:55:06Z H4ns: goglosh: if you already know cl and like to use some of it in emacs, why not? 2015-07-08T15:55:13Z gabriel_laddel: goglosh: there are various incompatibilities that you'll eventually hit in addition to ^^ and if you peek under the hood... 2015-07-08T15:55:14Z gabriel_laddel: ugh 2015-07-08T15:55:22Z gabriel_laddel: it's bad. 2015-07-08T15:55:38Z contrapunctus: ( https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl ) 2015-07-08T15:55:57Z goglosh: yeah, I guess that happens 2015-07-08T15:56:52Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T15:57:52Z goglosh: thanks for the advice 2015-07-08T15:58:46Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:01:22Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:05:34Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:05:34Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T16:05:55Z larion_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:09:25Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:09:26Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:11:27Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:12:43Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:16:11Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:19:07Z jasom: Hmm, I seem to be having a bug with dynamic-extend and sbcl. 2015-07-08T16:19:18Z jasom: s/dynamic-extend/dynamic-extent 2015-07-08T16:19:41Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:20:17Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:20:27Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151209 2015-07-08T16:20:32Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:20:54Z jasom: the unknown-pointer-object comes from a string declared to have dynamic extent 2015-07-08T16:21:50Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:21:50Z prince_j1mmys joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:22:11Z prince_jammys quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:22:39Z |3b|: is that from within the dynamic extent of the binding declared dynamic-extent? 2015-07-08T16:22:44Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:23:25Z nyef: jasom: Yeah, that'd be from valid_lisp_pointer_p() in src/runtime/gc-common.c not checking for stack spaces. 2015-07-08T16:24:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:24:38Z nyef: jasom: If you want to see what the string is, use SB-KERNEL:%MAKE-LISP-OBJ on that address. 2015-07-08T16:25:17Z nyef: But please be aware that %MAKE-LISP-OBJ is the "unsafe" version of a function in an SBCL-private package. 2015-07-08T16:25:25Z nyef: If you break it, you get to keep the pieces. 2015-07-08T16:25:48Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:26:41Z jasom: |3b|: yes 2015-07-08T16:27:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:27:21Z jasom: nyef: is it fixed in latest sbcl? 2015-07-08T16:27:25Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T16:29:25Z nyef: Almost certainly not. 2015-07-08T16:29:27Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:29:47Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:31:07Z jasom really feels like a #-sbcl in front of every dynamic-extent declaration could only improve things; it's very rare that I've seen it improve performance, and often it causes issues 2015-07-08T16:31:33Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:31:33Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:31:54Z scharan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-07-08T16:31:58Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:32:36Z jasom: some other library I used made the build output noisy because a macro expanded to a dynamic-extent declaration that sbcl style-warned about 2015-07-08T16:32:45Z jasom: I think it was cl-typesetting 2015-07-08T16:32:56Z nyef: Well, here's part of the problem: What happens if you have a D-X value in the backtrace, but it's since been smashed by something? 2015-07-08T16:33:05Z jasom: ah 2015-07-08T16:33:18Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:33:31Z jasom: nyef: so you're saying it's just the debug output that's an issue? 2015-07-08T16:33:38Z fe[nl]ix: cl-typesetting was written more than a decade ago 2015-07-08T16:33:42Z nyef: It's in the backtrace, which is taken when you enter the debugger. Which could lead to an error, thus entering the debugger, thus... 2015-07-08T16:33:42Z jasom: I know for a fact that the value is a string, so (length) should work on it 2015-07-08T16:34:11Z nyef: jasom: As I said, call SB-KERNEL:%MAKE-LISP-OBJ on that hex value for the object address, and you should get something useful. 2015-07-08T16:34:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:34:49Z jasom: well commenting out the dynamic-extend declaration lets everything work fine 2015-07-08T16:35:09Z jasom: and one of these day's I'll be able to type dynamic-extent 2015-07-08T16:35:31Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:36:24Z jasom sees if he can make a smaller test-case 2015-07-08T16:36:36Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T16:37:22Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:37:36Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:37:57Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:38:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:38:18Z nyef: jasom: "MAKE-LISP-OBJ does not work on dynamic-extent values", maybe? 2015-07-08T16:38:23Z pie_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:39:11Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:39:15Z nyef: (defun test () (let ((foo (cons nil nil))) (declare (dynamic-extent foo)) (assert (eq (sb-kernel:make-lisp-obj (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address foo) nil) foo)))) or so. 2015-07-08T16:39:38Z intinig quit 2015-07-08T16:39:58Z WarWeasle joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:40:20Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T16:42:09Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-08T16:43:40Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:46:17Z |3b|: jasom: is the problem the backtrace or that it errored in the first place? 2015-07-08T16:48:22Z jlongster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T16:48:51Z WarWeasle: 2015-07-08T16:48:51Z WarWeasle: 2015-07-08T16:48:51Z WarWeasle: 2015-07-08T16:48:51Z WarWeasle: 2015-07-08T16:48:53Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:49:03Z jasom: |3b|: that it errored in the first place 2015-07-08T16:50:52Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:52:33Z jasom: also I get "unknown pointer object" for what should be a string 2015-07-08T16:52:57Z jasom: when I use %make-lisp-obj that is 2015-07-08T16:53:08Z jasom: If I comment out the dynamic extend, the code works properly 2015-07-08T16:53:38Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-08T16:54:51Z WarWeasle quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-08T16:56:00Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T16:57:16Z ggole quit 2015-07-08T16:57:20Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:00:10Z dvgroc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:02:14Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T17:04:10Z ramkrsna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T17:06:06Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T17:06:15Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:06:21Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T17:06:29Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:06:38Z progo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T17:06:53Z progo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:07:22Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:07:25Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:08:39Z |3b|: jasom: can you show the code? 2015-07-08T17:10:28Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:12:21Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T17:13:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:13:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-08T17:13:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:15:00Z ljose joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:16:22Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:17:01Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:17:13Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:23:52Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:24:59Z fragamus joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:31:36Z PuercoPop: so apparently there are two different lispkit projects, same name, same goal https://github.com/vlnx/lispkit 2015-07-08T17:32:45Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T17:32:46Z gabriel_laddel: hahaa 2015-07-08T17:33:16Z pjb: PuercoPop: more https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=lispkit 2015-07-08T17:33:56Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T17:35:42Z contrapunctus: Any news on what happened to AeroNotix's LispKit? Channel is +s, a few months have passed since the last commit, doesn't seem to be anything in the Gitter nor the mailing list... 2015-07-08T17:36:26Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T17:37:56Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T17:38:02Z larion_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:38:02Z larion joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:38:44Z PuercoPop: pjb: I meant in CL. But I had now idea there was a lispkit lisp dialect 2015-07-08T17:38:55Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-08T17:39:27Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:40:29Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:42:29Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:42:46Z jasom: |3b|: I'm seeing if it reproduces with latest iolib 2015-07-08T17:43:19Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: reproduce what ? 2015-07-08T17:43:59Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-08T17:44:02Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: what I believe to be a bug in sbcl that shows up with stream-write-char on iolib 2015-07-08T17:44:11Z fe[nl]ix: ooh 2015-07-08T17:44:14Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:44:36Z jasom: and it does 2015-07-08T17:46:57Z jasom: hmm copy/paste isn't liking me 2015-07-08T17:47:56Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:49:23Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+38O9/2 2015-07-08T17:49:53Z ichernetsky joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:49:56Z jasom: write-char makes a single-element string with dynamic-extent and write-sequence barfs on it saying it's not a sequence 2015-07-08T17:50:30Z jasom: sbcl 1.2.11 2015-07-08T17:51:01Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-08T17:52:56Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:53:25Z |3b|: how does it make the string? 2015-07-08T17:53:42Z |3b| seems to have reproduced it using make-string 2015-07-08T17:53:47Z |3b|: (and no iolib) 2015-07-08T17:53:59Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:55:20Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-08T17:56:08Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T17:56:34Z |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151209#4 2015-07-08T17:57:51Z Bike: no error here. weird. 2015-07-08T17:58:38Z |3b| is using 1.2.13.30 win/x8664 2015-07-08T17:58:54Z Bike: 1.2.5, gee, i'm behind 2015-07-08T17:59:03Z pjb: boohoo! 2015-07-08T18:00:06Z |3b|: error on 1.2.13.2 x8664 linux, no error on 1.2.13.30 arm/linux 2015-07-08T18:00:19Z Bike: i do get it in 1.2.10 x8664 linux 2015-07-08T18:00:31Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T18:00:40Z nyef: So, looks to be backend-dependent and a regression? 2015-07-08T18:00:52Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:01:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T18:01:40Z Bike: so it seems 2015-07-08T18:02:05Z nyef: Sounds like a good candidate for the test suite, then. 2015-07-08T18:02:10Z nyef: d-x.impure.lisp. 2015-07-08T18:07:10Z |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/+38O9/5 2015-07-08T18:07:42Z zeitue quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T18:07:57Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:08:23Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:13:11Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-08T18:15:42Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:17:37Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:18:00Z jewel__ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:19:13Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T18:20:47Z jasom: Is there a document describing the behavior one can count on for threads on sbcl? 2015-07-08T18:21:17Z jasom: I'm implementing a recursive lock, and would like to have a fast lock-free path for the case where the lock is already held 2015-07-08T18:21:44Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:21:54Z pjb: "recursive locks considered harmful", or something. 2015-07-08T18:21:57Z fe[nl]ix: don't use recursive locks 2015-07-08T18:23:44Z jasom: is that a "no" then? 2015-07-08T18:24:11Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:24:37Z pjb: just a friendly advice. 2015-07-08T18:26:24Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:27:17Z fe[nl]ix: the inventor of recursive locks stated on a mailing list that he meant them as a quick way to port code that wasn't designed for locking 2015-07-08T18:27:36Z fe[nl]ix: and he didn't imagine that POSIX would standardize them 2015-07-08T18:27:49Z fragamus quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-08T18:27:59Z jasom: well I'm porting code that wasn't designed for locking 2015-07-08T18:28:24Z jasom: and I discovered that bt:acquire-recursive-lock on sbcl is a nop 2015-07-08T18:29:10Z foom: sbcl has a perfectly-functioning with-recursive-lock function 2015-07-08T18:29:33Z jasom: yup, but I can't do that because the time in which I need to hold the lock is not lexically defined. 2015-07-08T18:30:42Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-08T18:32:33Z pranavrc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T18:33:16Z fe[nl]ix: foom: that's the macro, but there's no grab-recursive-mutex 2015-07-08T18:35:25Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-08T18:35:39Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-08T18:36:53Z monod quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2015-07-08T18:37:19Z foom: Indeed. Since it doesn't have a count, it can't deal with unrelated lock/unlock calls. 2015-07-08T18:39:11Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:39:54Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T18:40:33Z foom: If you need that, you'll want to have a separate count, and check holding-mutex-p yourself 2015-07-08T18:41:44Z jasom: oh right, there's a holding-mutex-p 2015-07-08T18:41:47Z jasom: that'll do 2015-07-08T18:42:36Z bobbysmith007 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:45:37Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:47:51Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-08T18:48:06Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:51:17Z jasom: what does it mean that "release-mutex is not interrupt safe" are we talking about signals? 2015-07-08T18:51:20Z |3b|: looks like that bug isn't specific to make-string, or strings, though possibly needs typed arrays 2015-07-08T18:51:58Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T18:53:44Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-08T18:54:13Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:55:06Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T18:55:50Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:56:53Z foom: jasom: yes, say, press control-c, then unwind 2015-07-08T18:56:55Z stevegt_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T18:57:15Z foom: jasom: sometimes people expect that control-c and "abort" from the debugger won't blow up the process 2015-07-08T18:58:17Z foom: So, internally, sbcl tries to be careful that things are safe to unwind from such random places. 2015-07-08T18:58:40Z foom: User-level code often doesn't care about that so much 2015-07-08T18:59:34Z foom: Certainly we didn't on the project I worked on. If you aborted from within something, and that left a mutex locked or some state corrupted, oh well so sad restart your image. 2015-07-08T19:00:07Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:00:13Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:04:25Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:05:05Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:06:24Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:08:05Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi 2015-07-08T19:08:34Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T19:09:01Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:11:02Z stevegt_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:13:55Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:14:11Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:14:43Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T19:14:54Z schjetne` joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:15:19Z aluchan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:15:53Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:15:53Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:16:05Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:17:05Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:17:08Z mach joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:25:44Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:25:48Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:28:14Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:28:51Z Xach: pjb: new problems 2015-07-08T19:28:53Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:29:08Z Xach: pjb: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-08/failure-report.html 2015-07-08T19:29:32Z elimik31 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:31:21Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:32:11Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T19:34:29Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:35:55Z jasom: gah, I found another bug, END-OF-FILE error when reading from a string with eof-error-p set to nil; seeing if I can reproduce 2015-07-08T19:37:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T19:38:23Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:41:11Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T19:42:38Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:44:17Z jasom: can someone confirm that this should not signal an end-of-file error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151211 2015-07-08T19:44:22Z |3b|: jasom: it errors if it sees an incomplete object regardless of that flag 2015-07-08T19:44:39Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:44:45Z jasom: oh 2015-07-08T19:44:48Z jasom: darn 2015-07-08T19:45:27Z jasom: you're right. I'm an idiot 2015-07-08T19:45:50Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:45:58Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:47:33Z wedesoft joined #lisp 2015-07-08T19:49:51Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:52:23Z |3b|: hmm, that 2nd test case is worse than i thought, doesn't even need the type declaration http://paste.lisp.org/+38O9/6 2015-07-08T19:52:59Z |3b|: still doesn't affect arm though 2015-07-08T19:53:29Z pnpuff quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-08T19:55:03Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T19:56:16Z |3b|: seems to be specific to specialized arrays with immediate sized values... doesn't error on ub64 or double-float 2015-07-08T19:56:56Z |3b|: ub8 still doesn't error on arm though 2015-07-08T19:57:48Z ecraven: is there a place on irc to take to SLIME people? 2015-07-08T19:58:12Z |3b|: here is one 2015-07-08T20:04:18Z eudoxia: is quicklisp being terribly slow for anyone else 2015-07-08T20:04:30Z Xach: eudoxia: at fetching stuff? 2015-07-08T20:04:33Z eudoxia: yes 2015-07-08T20:05:04Z Xach: hmm, it is kind of slow for me too. 2015-07-08T20:05:07Z eudoxia: 19.85KB/sec 2015-07-08T20:05:22Z Xach: i'm getting 100-200KB/sec. i expect more like 1MB+ 2015-07-08T20:05:23Z eudoxia: AWS status dashboard says everything's green 2015-07-08T20:05:30Z Xach: yeah, it'd all be on AWS 2015-07-08T20:05:34Z eudoxia: then again if it weren't half the internet would be on fire 2015-07-08T20:05:52Z eudoxia: it just timed out fetching lack 2015-07-08T20:06:37Z Xach: sorry! 2015-07-08T20:06:55Z Xach: eudoxia: where are you, geographically? i'm on the east coast of the USA. 2015-07-08T20:07:07Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:07:15Z eudoxia: Uruguay 2015-07-08T20:07:26Z eudoxia: let me try this from a US server 2015-07-08T20:07:30Z Xach: Hmm, it's super-fast from my colo in canada. 2015-07-08T20:07:45Z Xach: 4MB/sec 2015-07-08T20:08:12Z eudoxia: it's quite fast from EC2, yep 2015-07-08T20:08:13Z Xach: 10MB/sec from dallas 2015-07-08T20:08:36Z Xach: eudoxia: maybe it's an intermediate network we have in common 2015-07-08T20:08:58Z eudoxia: hmm 2015-07-08T20:09:05Z jasom: I was getting slow speeds earlier today too from socal 2015-07-08T20:09:23Z jasom: 10-200K/s 2015-07-08T20:10:07Z eudoxia: i ran traceroute to see what it hops over and it's taking its time 2015-07-08T20:10:43Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:11:48Z yati quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T20:12:10Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:12:49Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:12:56Z nyef: FWIW, I'm getting occasional bouts of lag to a VNC session I have running in AWS us-east-1. 2015-07-08T20:14:02Z wedesoft_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:14:02Z wedesoft_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T20:14:31Z wedesoft_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:14:50Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T20:15:12Z wedesoft quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T20:15:27Z pjb: Xach: I've pushed the changes, there were missing dependencies on the new systems. 2015-07-08T20:15:31Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T20:15:48Z pjb: Xach: Do you have the script with which you test systems available? 2015-07-08T20:16:11Z Xach: pjb: it is on github, but is a pain to set up. a simple attempt to load via asdf would give a similar error. 2015-07-08T20:17:27Z pjb: Yes, from a scratch image. But while developping in an image where dependencies are already loaded, this goes undetected. Also, it's necessary to try it for each system. When I use my umbrella system com.informatimago, some dependencies may be loaded before the dependent even if the link is missing. 2015-07-08T20:17:36Z pjb: What's the github repo where it is? 2015-07-08T20:18:10Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-08T20:18:38Z Xach: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-controller/ 2015-07-08T20:19:07Z pjb: Thanks. 2015-07-08T20:19:39Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:22:50Z |3b|: pjb: in https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1471809 is "S/CL-USER" a typo or some package that might have non-cl versions of some of those symbols? (or that otherwise implies loading some code before that AVER shows up) 2015-07-08T20:23:32Z Xach: pjb: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-08/failure-report/com.informatimago.html#com.informatimago.languages.c11 much better now 2015-07-08T20:25:01Z elimik31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T20:26:36Z Xach: but still... 2015-07-08T20:29:12Z yeltzooo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:30:38Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T20:31:06Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-08T20:32:11Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:32:46Z scymtym: re https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1471809: the debugger help string at the top contains "Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:QUIT) to exit from SBCL." which contradicts sbcl --version printing 1.2.13 a few lines down 2015-07-08T20:33:55Z ljose quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-08T20:34:14Z |3b| missed that too 2015-07-08T20:38:02Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T20:40:06Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:40:46Z myrk2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T20:44:13Z myrk2 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:46:49Z wedesoft_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T20:47:45Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:48:20Z ceryo quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-08T20:49:00Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T20:49:32Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T20:50:29Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T20:50:51Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:54:05Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-08T20:56:06Z tmtwd: how do I break out of a slime command? 2015-07-08T20:56:15Z tmtwd: I think its caught in an infinite loop 2015-07-08T20:56:15Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T20:56:53Z Bike: C-c C-c 2015-07-08T20:57:03Z dlowe: tmtwd: if that doesn't work check the *inferior-lisp* buffer 2015-07-08T20:57:10Z dlowe: your lisp may have died horribly 2015-07-08T20:58:45Z larion_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T20:58:45Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:00:18Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:02:12Z |3b|: C-c C-b from a lisp buffer (where C-c C-c would try to compile something) 2015-07-08T21:02:39Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:02:41Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:03:06Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:05:25Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:06:14Z |3b|: jasom: filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1472785 for that dynamic-extent thing 2015-07-08T21:06:16Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:06:53Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:07:00Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:08:43Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:10:00Z duggiefresh quit 2015-07-08T21:10:26Z larion_ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:10:27Z larion joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:10:38Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:14:35Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T21:16:04Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:19:19Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:20:05Z not_tfl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:20:14Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:20:20Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:21:16Z pjb: Xach: S/CL-USER is a custom prompt. 2015-07-08T21:21:37Z pjb: It shows that it's sbcl, in the cl-user package. 2015-07-08T21:23:03Z kvsari quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:27:20Z scymtym: pjb: did you see my remark regarding the version mismatch? assuming i didn't get confused, the repl session seems to be using a different SBCL than the sbcl --version commandline invocation. 2015-07-08T21:28:09Z jasom: |3b|: thanks 2015-07-08T21:28:49Z zyaku joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:32:10Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:35:43Z larion_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-08T21:35:46Z larion quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-08T21:35:48Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:36:17Z cpopell3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:36:29Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:37:26Z pjb: scymtym: let me check again. 2015-07-08T21:40:10Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-08T21:43:40Z scymtym: pjb: thanks. while at it, can you include the output of (SB-EXT:DESCRIBE-COMPILER-POLICY)? this looks like the kind of bug that would depend on the compiler policy. 2015-07-08T21:44:50Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:45:27Z pjb: done. 2015-07-08T21:45:42Z scymtym cannot reproduce with SBCL 1.2.13 and typical compiler policies 2015-07-08T21:45:44Z scymtym: thanks 2015-07-08T21:45:45Z pjb: I can't reproduce it so I made it invalid. 2015-07-08T21:46:02Z scymtym: phew 2015-07-08T21:46:38Z dim: pjb: desultory reading some of your code at https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/ I guess you would benefit from something like (put 'print-parseable-object 'common-lisp-indent-function (get 'let 'common-lisp-indent-function)) in your emacs setup? 2015-07-08T21:47:18Z pjb: dim: usually, slime infer things correctly from the macro definition. 2015-07-08T21:47:51Z dim: well it doesn't always or I don't have the proper slime fancy setting 2015-07-08T21:48:06Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:48:17Z dim: I know I have quite some manual settings here 2015-07-08T21:48:29Z pjb: Yes, sometimes it fails. Also, of course, you need to have an inferior lisp launched with the library loaded. 2015-07-08T21:48:35Z pjb: same here. 2015-07-08T21:48:46Z dim: like (put 'bind 'common-lisp-indent-function (get 'let 'common-lisp-indent-function)) is for metabang-bind 2015-07-08T21:49:04Z dim: or (put 'register-groups-bind 'common-lisp-indent-function 2) for cl-ppcre 2015-07-08T21:49:08Z dim: well you know the drill 2015-07-08T21:49:32Z dim: ok I'd better go get some sleep, gn! 2015-07-08T21:51:04Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-07-08T21:53:59Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T21:54:46Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T21:55:34Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-07-08T21:56:19Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T21:56:26Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T21:56:44Z zygentoma quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T21:56:53Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-08T21:57:07Z aeth: Is there an online "super grep" that has e.g. all the packages in Quicklisp, the source code of various Lisp implementations, etc.? I guess the closest thing I can think of is searching code in Github, then filtering by Common Lisp, but there's a lot of noise on Github (e.g. all of the forks) and a lot of languages I don't care about (in fact I can't even filter by Common Lisp in the default UI if there are more popular languages in the top 2015-07-08T21:59:43Z aeth: hmm, looks like Github has language:"Foo" syntax. It's still not as useful as locally grepping for some reason 2015-07-08T22:00:30Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:01:14Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T22:01:49Z PuercoPop: aeth: so you mean something like sourcegraph but for CL? 2015-07-08T22:02:09Z aeth: I'm not aware of sourcegraph 2015-07-08T22:02:48Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:03:05Z aeth: But basically something equivalent to recursively grepping ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software assuming that that directory only has the latest copy per program (instead of lots of versions) 2015-07-08T22:03:28Z aeth: (adding sbcl, etc., that obviously won't be in Quicklisp) 2015-07-08T22:05:02Z tmtwd: I tried the function collect in repl, but when I tried to load source code I got this error: ; 2015-07-08T22:05:02Z tmtwd: ; caught STYLE-WARNING: 2015-07-08T22:05:02Z tmtwd: ; undefined function: COLLECT 2015-07-08T22:05:02Z tmtwd: ; 2015-07-08T22:05:55Z pjb: (apropos "COLLECT") 2015-07-08T22:06:40Z pjb: also, it might be because it's defined in a different file that is loaded/compiled after the first. So you might want to update your dependencies in the asd file. 2015-07-08T22:07:23Z pjb: aeth: my solution: load all the systems in quicklisp in a single image, and use apropos. 2015-07-08T22:07:44Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-08T22:08:14Z tmtwd: I don't think thats the problem http://pastebin.com/DnGQF6te 2015-07-08T22:08:40Z tmtwd: I tested that function in pieces in the repl, but maybe I put it together incorrectly 2015-07-08T22:08:41Z aeth: pjb: Loading all of quicklisp will cost the quicklisp project bandwidth, though. This is a good case for the "cloud" because not everyone needs 100% of every package downloaded locally if they just want to search around 2015-07-08T22:08:45Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:09:28Z foom: I almost wrote a script to take all the sources from quicklisp and commit them to a git repo 2015-07-08T22:09:36Z foom: I think that'd be the best solution 2015-07-08T22:09:45Z aeth: foom: the cheapest, probably 2015-07-08T22:09:50Z foom: Every time quicklisp updates, take all the new packages, and commit to git, and upload to github 2015-07-08T22:09:51Z aeth: then you can just use a local repo search 2015-07-08T22:10:06Z foom: Then you get history, and git grep is awesomely fast. 2015-07-08T22:10:20Z aeth: yeah 2015-07-08T22:10:37Z aeth: foom: and the best part is, if you download the whole thing, you get a modern "batteries-included" programming language ;-) 2015-07-08T22:10:45Z foom: But I don't work on CL code anymore, so I'm not actually going to do this. 2015-07-08T22:10:46Z aeth: The most batteries included in the world! 2015-07-08T22:10:59Z foom: It'd be great for someone to do so, though 2015-07-08T22:11:56Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:12:15Z aeth: foom: an alternative might be to just donate a code search program to the Quicklisp project, depending on how they're hosted and if they want it 2015-07-08T22:12:38Z foom: sure, but the git repo would be great for all sorts of other uses 2015-07-08T22:13:13Z brpocock: git submodule add $bletch … et al? 2015-07-08T22:13:19Z foom: no, not submodules 2015-07-08T22:13:22Z foom: those are crap, don't use them 2015-07-08T22:13:38Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T22:13:48Z foom: just a single, flat, repo of each quicklisp release. 2015-07-08T22:14:06Z foom: With all the files from all the projects included in it. 2015-07-08T22:14:14Z wemeetagain quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:14:23Z fragamus joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:15:00Z aeth: hmm, looking it up, it looks like "the Quicklisp project" is Xach 2015-07-08T22:15:04Z foom: yes 2015-07-08T22:15:57Z foom: You *could* use subtree merges to include the commit history of each imported project, for those that use git instead of release tarballs, but I don't think that's actually important, and makes things a lot more complicated. 2015-07-08T22:17:04Z aeth: not everything in Quicklisp uses Git 2015-07-08T22:17:24Z aeth: I've seen -cvs, -darcs, and -svn 2015-07-08T22:17:46Z foom: yes? 2015-07-08T22:18:03Z alusion quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:18:05Z aeth: So a single flat repo is the only way to avoid complications afaik 2015-07-08T22:18:16Z foom: I agree. :) 2015-07-08T22:18:41Z aeth: Do some actually use release tarballs instead of even CVS? wow 2015-07-08T22:19:13Z aeth: Although I guess real Lisp programmers program on LispMs that probably don't have CVS, SVN, git, etc., installed on them 2015-07-08T22:20:19Z nyef: aeth: Feel free to write a version of git in Lisp. 2015-07-08T22:20:56Z aeth: nyef: Iirc, git is very Unixy, linked to the nature of Unix. It'll either be an immitation or basically a reinvention of lots of Unixy ways of doing things except in Lisp. 2015-07-08T22:22:03Z nyef: ... So? 2015-07-08T22:22:04Z aeth: Distributed revision control in Lisp could be roughly compatable with git so you could do git->foo and foo->git but I think it'd be a waste to actually rewrite git in Lisp 2015-07-08T22:22:40Z nyef: Guess I'll have to try to con someone else into doing it, then. 2015-07-08T22:24:42Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:24:56Z aeth: Why do git when you can do something cooler? 2015-07-08T22:25:32Z aeth: You can even try to solve some of the weaknesses of git that led to Github by e.g. integrating some Github-specific features that git lacks, like a bug tracker and (iirc) pull requests. 2015-07-08T22:25:54Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:26:24Z nyef: Nevermind that pull requests are a broken interaction model, and issue tracking is entirely orthogonal to source control...? 2015-07-08T22:26:34Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:26:38Z aeth: Of course pull requests are broken. 2015-07-08T22:27:37Z aeth: One big mistake a FOSS program can make is to closely copy proprietary software it's trying to replace. 2015-07-08T22:28:11Z aeth: Don't clone pull requests, reimagine them. 2015-07-08T22:29:14Z nyef: So, here's the thing. I don't want an all-singing, all-dancing development tool. I want source control that interoperates with git. 2015-07-08T22:29:16Z aeth: Issue tracking isn't entirely orthogonal to source control. If you integrate the issue tracker you can e.g. include metadata in the commits that refer to the issue, etc. With git, you have to do this in the commit message rather than in metadata. 2015-07-08T22:29:38Z aeth: nyef: I thought the point of Lisp design was all-singing, all-dancing? Unix/C's the worse is better world. 2015-07-08T22:30:00Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:30:11Z nyef: When was the last time you read "Good News, Bad News, and How to Win Big"? 2015-07-08T22:30:26Z badkins quit 2015-07-08T22:30:47Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:30:49Z aeth: nyef: it's not in my Firefox Awesome Bar history, so I guess it's probably been more than a year 2015-07-08T22:31:06Z nyef: Right. 2015-07-08T22:31:10Z aeth: oh wait, it's not in the title of the page so idk 2015-07-08T22:31:29Z nyef: https://www.dreamsongs.com/WIB.html 2015-07-08T22:31:46Z aeth: yes 2015-07-08T22:31:53Z Zhivago: aeth: Non-interoperability is not a winning strategy. 2015-07-08T22:32:20Z aeth: I mean that "Good News, Bad News, and How to Win Big" is not in which is why I didn't find it at first 2015-07-08T22:33:10Z aeth: It kind of proves my point about how metadata can be useful :-p 2015-07-08T22:33:51Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-08T22:35:11Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:35:30Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T22:36:09Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:36:31Z aeth: Zhivago: non-interoperability? 2015-07-08T22:36:45Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:36:49Z Zhivago: The all-singing all-dancing design approach to not working with anything existing. 2015-07-08T22:38:03Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:41:35Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:41:35Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:42:45Z qubitner1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:42:56Z williamyao quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T22:43:38Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:45:32Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-08T22:49:07Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-08T22:50:42Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:50:44Z nalik891 quit (Quit: Good night) 2015-07-08T22:51:57Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-08T22:54:06Z monod quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2015-07-08T22:55:42Z arrsim quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:56:34Z arrsim joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:56:46Z endou___________ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:56:46Z ktx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-08T22:57:30Z endou___________ joined #lisp 2015-07-08T22:57:52Z ktx joined #lisp 2015-07-08T23:02:17Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-08T23:04:18Z arborist quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-08T23:05:42Z PuercoPop: is there a way to make asdf load all the system definitions is its path? 2015-07-08T23:06:36Z PuercoPop: (not the systems, just the system definitions) 2015-07-08T23:06:47Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-08T23:08:16Z pjb: PuercoPop: (loop :for (d . ss) :in (com.informatimago.tools.try-systems::find-asd-systems-in-directory #P"~/src/lisp/") :do (loop :for s :in ss :do (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op s))) 2015-07-08T23:08:35Z pjb: I'm writing it, it's not published yet :-/ 2015-07-08T23:09:13Z pjb: Oh, sorry, you want: 2015-07-08T23:09:32Z pjb: (mapcar 'load (directory #P"/some/path/**/*.asd")) 2015-07-08T23:13:35Z PuercoPop: pjb: except the #P"/foo/" is determined by asdf. 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seconds) 2015-07-09T02:56:02Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-09T02:56:57Z skeuomorf quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-09T02:59:09Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-09T02:59:21Z blt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-09T03:05:12Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T03:15:17Z nightfly quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T03:19:06Z mlrutherford: How come lisp has been around for SO long, but has consistently been ignored by the masses, even though its a fantastic language? 2015-07-09T03:19:39Z Bike: lizard conspiracy 2015-07-09T03:19:41Z |3b|: aliens 2015-07-09T03:20:10Z pjb: mlrutherford: how comes La Tour d'Argent has been around for SO long, but has consistently been ignored by the masses, even though it's a fantastic restaurant? 2015-07-09T03:21:25Z |3b| notes that you are asking this on IRC, which is ignored by the masses as well 2015-07-09T03:21:36Z mlrutherford: fair point :P 2015-07-09T03:22:22Z mlrutherford: Full disclosure: I'm ridiculously new to Lisp, so im not caught up on my Lisp history yet 2015-07-09T03:22:34Z Bike: wow, this is way too expensive for me 2015-07-09T03:23:09Z pjb: mlrutherford: marry, have a lot of babies, teach them lisp. If all lispers do that, eventually, we should take over the world! 2015-07-09T03:23:27Z pjb: lot of babies = at least six. 2015-07-09T03:23:48Z mlrutherford: :P in all seriousness, what is the likelihood that Lisp will gain traction again (in some form or another)? 2015-07-09T03:23:55Z |3b|: but more seriously, people aren't always (or even mostly) rational, and even if they are, they might be optimizing for different things than you are 2015-07-09T03:24:00Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-09T03:24:09Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-09T03:24:21Z pjb: mlrutherford: same probability as I would find a genie in a lamp, and not botch my three wishes. 2015-07-09T03:24:22Z |3b|: if you consider clojure to "have traction", 100% 2015-07-09T03:24:40Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-09T03:25:30Z nyef: |3b|: If you consider clojure to "be a lisp" and to "have traction"? 2015-07-09T03:26:22Z |3b|: if not, impossible to predict... 1 killer application or popular scriptable game could be enough, but you can't really predict those even in popular languages where there a lot of candidates 2015-07-09T03:26:22Z nyef: ... Wait, I have work to do tomorrow. Why am I still up and looking at compiler bugs? 2015-07-09T03:26:39Z beach: Oh, one of THOSE questions. "If Lisp is so good, why is it not more popular?" 2015-07-09T03:27:13Z nyef: "If sobriety is so good, why is it not more popular?" 2015-07-09T03:27:41Z pjb: I tried the McDonald analogy, but I don't know if I've been successful. 2015-07-09T03:27:44Z mlrutherford: sorry for asking a dumb question, just figured somebody might know something i dont :P 2015-07-09T03:27:58Z beach: mlrutherford: http://metamodular.com/Essays/wrong.html 2015-07-09T03:28:15Z beach: mlrutherford: http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html 2015-07-09T03:30:33Z mlrutherford: I think my question boils down to me being afraid of wasting my time writing in Lisp if its destined to be a classroom language. 2015-07-09T03:30:40Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-09T03:30:52Z beach: mlrutherford: You are right. Go learn something more popular. 2015-07-09T03:30:59Z mlrutherford: But i suppose everything is dying, just at different rates 2015-07-09T03:31:10Z pjb: mlrutherford: don't worry, it's definitely not a classroom language. That's part of the problem, actually. 2015-07-09T03:32:07Z pjb: mlrutherford: for example, perl is dead (who still uses it?). lisp was born 56 years ago and still going. Bet which one will be still going 56 years in the future? 2015-07-09T03:34:02Z linux_dream: a new dialect of lisp 2015-07-09T03:34:30Z mlrutherford: pjb, My (uninformed) opinion is that Lisps issue is primarily one of it's image rather than its abilities 2015-07-09T03:35:16Z mlrutherford: linux_dream, it would have to be a dialect that has a significant advantage over what already exists. 2015-07-09T03:35:25Z pjb: mlrutherford: You know, Spanish is already the language most spoken in the US. Clearly, English is on the sliding slope. Care to switch to #lisp-es? 2015-07-09T03:35:31Z mlrutherford: linux_dream, i think clasp is 100 steps in the right direction 2015-07-09T03:35:38Z beach: mlrutherford: Wow, you read those essays pretty fast. 2015-07-09T03:36:51Z linux_dream: mlrutherford, do you mean clisp?? 2015-07-09T03:36:59Z pjb will bbl 2015-07-09T03:37:13Z mlrutherford: linux_dream, no clasp :P https://github.com/drmeister/clasp 2015-07-09T03:37:36Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T03:38:46Z linux_dream: nice 2015-07-09T03:39:26Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-09T03:42:57Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-09T03:47:39Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-09T03:47:51Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T03:47:52Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-07-09T03:50:40Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-09T03:52:21Z mlrutherford quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T03:53:16Z ahungry: Language comparisons you say? Try out my new tool http://lang-pop.ahungry.com/compare/haskell/clojure/lisp (written in common lisp) =] 2015-07-09T03:54:00Z linux_dream: what do the numbers represent? 2015-07-09T03:54:09Z ahungry: subreddit subscribers 2015-07-09T03:54:46Z ahungry: you can change the url to whatever you want as long as its a valid reddit.com/r/something page) 2015-07-09T03:55:16Z ahungry: i was going to tie in freenode active chat channel users as well eventually 2015-07-09T03:56:07Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T03:56:55Z ahungry: as far as popular languages go (among redditusers at least) javascript and python blow away everything else 2015-07-09T03:57:01Z ahungry: http://lang-pop.ahungry.com/compare/haskell/clojure/lisp/racket/scheme/matlab/prolog/c_programming/java/schala/cpp/php/ruby/python/javascript 2015-07-09T03:57:13Z ahungry: but that doesn't mean they're the best 2015-07-09T03:57:23Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-09T03:57:51Z theos: so you want to connect reddit users to irc? 2015-07-09T03:58:31Z ahungry: No, I plan to add more pie charts to the page, like another one beneath the existing one that also queries stats based on the same URL but breaks it out among freenode users for instance 2015-07-09T03:58:49Z ahungry: maybe any other things I can automate, like stack overflow topics for the lang etc 2015-07-09T03:58:55Z wooden joined #lisp 2015-07-09T03:59:10Z theos: pie charts are old. try some newer visualization tools 2015-07-09T04:00:52Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:01:43Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T04:02:51Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:03:14Z ahungry: it was just a small vecto function call i wrote to graph it, I think its decent (shows for instance on the last link that everything after C makes up a tiny part of the pie compared to the top contenders) 2015-07-09T04:03:18Z ahungry: What do you like? bar graphs? 2015-07-09T04:03:55Z rotcehmc quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-07-09T04:05:37Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-09T04:07:24Z linux_dream: github hsa also similar stats 2015-07-09T04:07:33Z theos: i like pie charts too. i am just too obsessed with fancy visualization tools :D 2015-07-09T04:07:37Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:07:41Z linux_dream: if I remember well javascript also escapes 1st there 2015-07-09T04:10:15Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T04:10:25Z kristof: Cleavir is to compilers as the metaobject protocol is to CLOS, yes? 2015-07-09T04:10:33Z theos: my experience has shown me that popular means "NOT worth knowing". thats why I learned CL instead of python or C++ or even java(tpc) 2015-07-09T04:11:04Z beach: kristof: Interesting parallel. Thanks, I guess. 2015-07-09T04:11:06Z kristof: theos: Point-of-view is worth 80 IQ points. 2015-07-09T04:11:15Z kristof: beach: It was a question, actually. 2015-07-09T04:11:50Z theos: kristof what do you mean? 2015-07-09T04:11:54Z MasterPiece quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-09T04:12:02Z beach: kristof: The question is very vague, but I will be happy to answer any more specific questions about Cleavir if you want. 2015-07-09T04:12:10Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T04:16:15Z kristof: beach: In retrospect, the analogy was strained. 2015-07-09T04:16:31Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:17:04Z kristof: It's just that when I read that the implementation allows for generic function "hooks" into the way it operates, it reminded me of the way CLOS has metaobject "hooks" for how it works in general. 2015-07-09T04:18:14Z beach: I see what you mean. However, that is standard practice for object-oriented programs written in CLOS. 2015-07-09T04:18:20Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:18:54Z beach: So your question boils down to "Are the MOP and Cleavir both written using CLOS?" 2015-07-09T04:19:16Z Bike: well, a lot of what makes the MOP the MOP is using CLOS to make CLOS, so hey. 2015-07-09T04:20:05Z kristof: That wasn't quite what I meant, but my question was confused anyway, so it's irrelevant now. 2015-07-09T04:20:14Z Niac_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T04:20:28Z kristof: Something more concrete: is Clasp using Cleavir? 2015-07-09T04:20:35Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-09T04:21:10Z beach: kristof: drmeister saw Cleavir as a way to write a compiler that generates faster code than his original system was able to do. 2015-07-09T04:23:04Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T04:23:47Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:24:36Z kristof: beach: Does he plan on doing optimizations on his end or will the majority of static analysis be done with Cleavir? 2015-07-09T04:24:45Z beach: kristof: This work is still embryonic, though. A week or so ago, Clasp could do inlined fixnum arithmetic for the first time. 2015-07-09T04:25:01Z kristof: Progress is progress. :) 2015-07-09T04:25:04Z beach: kristof: It depends on the kind of optimization. 2015-07-09T04:25:20Z beach: kristof: Cleavir will do type inference and some other Common Lisp-specific optimizations. 2015-07-09T04:25:42Z beach: kristof: drmeister will use LLVM for low-level optimizations such as register allocation etc. 2015-07-09T04:25:48Z kristof: beach: I suppose then that cleavir would do flow anlaysis and anything else related to semantics, while Clasp will fiddle with assembly level stuff? 2015-07-09T04:25:50Z kristof: Okay 2015-07-09T04:26:05Z kristof: I saw that a good 30% of the code in Clasp was ASM. That's a sizeable chunk! 2015-07-09T04:26:23Z beach: That doesn't sound right. 2015-07-09T04:26:39Z kristof: Those are just the numbers at the top of the github repository. 2015-07-09T04:26:49Z kristof: Those numbers could be biased in any which way. 2015-07-09T04:27:06Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-09T04:27:49Z beach: You need to ask drmeister about that. I think it is plain wrong. 2015-07-09T04:29:09Z Bike: the github repo has and had a whole bunch of irrelevant junk in it, so between that and the skeezy language detection i wouldn't take that number too seriously 2015-07-09T04:29:23Z Bike: for one thing, it doesn't have any machine assembly, most likely, just llvm ir 2015-07-09T04:29:58Z kristof: Yeah, I couldn't find anything. 2015-07-09T04:30:06Z kristof: Mayber it's confusing the .jam extension? 2015-07-09T04:30:52Z drmeister: Hello 2015-07-09T04:31:02Z beach: Hello drmeister 2015-07-09T04:31:18Z kristof: drmeister: I was just confused about why Github thinks Clasp is 30% assembly. 2015-07-09T04:31:38Z drmeister: Really? Where do you see that? 2015-07-09T04:32:41Z kristof: On Github. I think the .jam extension is confusing it. When you try clicking on "assembly", it can't find anything. 2015-07-09T04:33:27Z drmeister: Hmm, I was worried that there may be some large LLVM-IR files in there and maybe it thought that was assembly? There shouldn't be any though. 2015-07-09T04:34:10Z kristof: I wouldn't worry about it. I only mentioned it because I thought it was accurate on first glance and was impressed. 2015-07-09T04:34:18Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-09T04:36:13Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-09T04:36:19Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-09T04:39:52Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:41:43Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:42:37Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:43:53Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:44:07Z phax left #lisp 2015-07-09T04:45:09Z nightfly joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:45:12Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:46:35Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-09T04:47:39Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-09T04:48:25Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T04:48:51Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T04:50:48Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:57:04Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T04:57:49Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T04:58:42Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:03:17Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:06:55Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-09T05:07:02Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:07:33Z phax left #lisp 2015-07-09T05:07:48Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T05:09:37Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-09T05:10:59Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:11:22Z sunwukong quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T05:11:38Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T05:12:15Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:13:43Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-07-09T05:14:07Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T05:14:23Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:19:46Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T05:24:04Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-07-09T05:24:07Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: oi 2015-07-09T05:25:06Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. 2015-07-09T05:25:10Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-09T05:25:53Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T05:29:05Z innertracks1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:29:32Z theos: does CL code involve GPL somewhere? or any other license 2015-07-09T05:29:55Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T05:30:01Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by cl code? 2015-07-09T05:30:15Z jackdaniel: ecl is lgpl2, abcl is gpl with class exception 2015-07-09T05:30:21Z jackdaniel: if you ask about implementations 2015-07-09T05:30:28Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T05:30:36Z jackdaniel: clisp is gpl, sbcl public domain 2015-07-09T05:30:40Z theos: say i make software in CL, use emacs and sbcl 2015-07-09T05:31:31Z jackdaniel: I seriously doubt someone would try to enforce gpl on your software due to used implementation, even if there might be some technical doubts with clisp 2015-07-09T05:31:42Z jackdaniel: on the other hand many cl libraries are gpl/agpl 2015-07-09T05:32:07Z jackdaniel: so if you are gpl-agnostic, you should watch what you use 2015-07-09T05:32:27Z Niac quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T05:32:35Z jackdaniel: but making software with emacs and sbcl is not a problem in this sense, you can make with it propietiary software 2015-07-09T05:32:40Z theos: how will they know what i used? 2015-07-09T05:32:43Z sdemarre1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:33:19Z jackdaniel: theos: how people will know, that you stole something? maybe they won't , but trying to hide this fact puts you in very sad moral position 2015-07-09T05:34:12Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:35:52Z jackdaniel: imagine someone putting hours/days/months into creating some library, for which he/she can charge a lot of money, because it's *that* good, but decides to give it for free. and then some lazy thief takes his code and builds his library with steroids (which is easy, because code is maintainable), and sells it using different name 2015-07-09T05:36:06Z H4ns: then what? 2015-07-09T05:36:18Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-07-09T05:36:44Z theos: jackdaniel morality is relative. and i am a pirate yes! thanks. oh i am not talking about selling someone else's work under my own name. 2015-07-09T05:36:45Z jackdaniel: nothing, I would be pissed if someone would try to close my gpl'ed code, like I would be pissed if someone would steal my wallet, or spit on my face 2015-07-09T05:37:09Z jackdaniel: theos: gpl doesn't enforce opening your code unless you distribute it 2015-07-09T05:37:26Z H4ns: jackdaniel: then it is you who has a problem, because you put spitting in your face onto the same as something that you've created. 2015-07-09T05:37:36Z H4ns: onto the same level 2015-07-09T05:38:13Z jackdaniel: H4ns: no, licences exist to comply with them. It's act of stealing, what is problem in sense of enforcing law 2015-07-09T05:38:27Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:39:02Z milosn quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-09T05:39:09Z H4ns: jackdaniel: no, it is not an act of stealing, because nothing is taken away by the act. your position requires adherence to a belief system and you're drawing false analogies to support it. 2015-07-09T05:40:02Z innertracks1 quit (Quit: innertracks1) 2015-07-09T05:40:16Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-09T05:40:21Z jackdaniel: I'm not saying gpl is perfect license neither it's better/worse then any other, and while I essentially agree with your "you can't steal an information" crap, we live in a world, where people actually regulate information flow 2015-07-09T05:40:50Z theos: i dont want my code to be misused so i never release it. 2015-07-09T05:41:59Z loke joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:42:14Z jackdaniel: theos: then you are free of gpl doubts, you don't have to release your code if you don't distribute your software 2015-07-09T05:43:00Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T05:43:09Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:43:30Z jackdaniel: even if it links in any way with gpled code that is 2015-07-09T05:43:50Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:45:59Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:46:39Z araujo__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T05:47:00Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:47:53Z araujo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:48:13Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T05:48:33Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T05:50:06Z araujo__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T05:50:30Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:53:48Z aeth: Code that's never released can still be misused. 2015-07-09T05:54:49Z aeth: What worries me is the LLGPL. Afaik, rule #1 of FOSS licenses is to not write your own licenses and so I'm really not sure if I can trust custom licenses like that. 2015-07-09T05:54:51Z theos: jackdaniel i mean, i dont release the source. i was concerned about selling proprietary CL code and getting sued by RMS or someone over GPL violation 2015-07-09T05:55:46Z theos: if i release the source code, i will want other people to do with it whatever they want to do. 2015-07-09T05:56:10Z jackdaniel: well, if you use gpl libs in your propietary code, then you may be sued by rms or someone over gpl violation 2015-07-09T05:56:28Z jackdaniel: then use bsd licensed libraries avoid gpl'ed ones 2015-07-09T05:56:55Z jackdaniel: and propietiary code may be misused, as aeth pointed out 2015-07-09T05:57:26Z aeth: Stay away from GPL libraries unless you are writing a GPL application (GPL *applications* are OK to *use*, of course.) 2015-07-09T05:57:27Z theos: even if its inside a blackbox? 2015-07-09T05:57:46Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:57:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-09T05:58:00Z jackdaniel: blackbox? 2015-07-09T05:58:03Z aeth: If you want to try to find some clever way to work around the GPL or profit from the GPL, consult a lawyer, not #lisp. And that lawyer might be wrong. 2015-07-09T05:59:07Z aeth: Most libraries are not GPL. They're usually MIT these days, especially on something like Lisp where apparently the LGPL isn't used without modification (modified as the LLGPL) 2015-07-09T05:59:13Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-09T05:59:45Z jackdaniel: well, if you can't find library which does desired thing and is non-GPL, you may hire someone to write one for you 2015-07-09T06:00:18Z yeticry quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-09T06:01:03Z theos: hmm. software licenses are so tricky 2015-07-09T06:01:15Z aeth: Most of the (A)GPL Lisp libraries these days are (afaik) at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/index.html 2015-07-09T06:01:33Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:01:34Z aeth: You will almost always encounter MIT, LLGPL, or BSD licenses at least ime 2015-07-09T06:02:07Z aeth: I was grepping through a bunch that I have downloaded, and usually the only GPL is for the examples and/or some helper tools like a shell script 2015-07-09T06:03:14Z jackdaniel: if it's called for it's results, then it's not linking 2015-07-09T06:03:39Z jackdaniel: so you're ok with that 2015-07-09T06:04:04Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Easy solution. Just GPL your code to be safe. 2015-07-09T06:04:14Z aeth: It's pretty simple: Libraries don't use GPL, applications might use GPL. Rarely, libraries *do* use GPL, and those are for GPL applications only. 2015-07-09T06:04:34Z aeth: And yes, Petit_Dejeuner_ is right. The maximum compatability is to use GPLv3 or later. If you use GPLv2 you can't use Apache licensed libraries. 2015-07-09T06:04:48Z theos: what about using emacs or other gnu software to make software? 2015-07-09T06:04:50Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:05:09Z beach: theos: What about it? 2015-07-09T06:05:22Z jackdaniel: it's not a problem, you can use gcc to create closed software, since gpl doesn't enforce license nor ownership on products of gpl-licensed software 2015-07-09T06:05:35Z Petit_Dejeuner_: If you use GIMP to create an image, your image is not licensed under the GPL. 2015-07-09T06:05:40Z theos: do i have to send copies of gpl along with the software? 2015-07-09T06:05:50Z aeth: theos: emacs lisp programs are always (afaik) GPL. Programs written in emacs usually aren't. If you're writing elisp for distribution you might have to GPL it, but if you're doing Common Lisp (the subject of this channel) you won't have to GPL it (except maybe if you use clisp, I think people are unsure) 2015-07-09T06:05:55Z beach: theos: International copyright law has the concept of "derived work". Using software is not creating a derived work of it. 2015-07-09T06:05:59Z RussT2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T06:06:16Z mwsb quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-09T06:06:49Z theos: aeth i see. fortunately, i use sbcl which is mostly public 2015-07-09T06:07:43Z jackdaniel: I think you didn't understand a thing from answers - it doesn't matter what sbcl license is 2015-07-09T06:07:47Z beach: theos: Again, using a program A to create a program B does not automatically mean that B is a derived work of A. For that, you need to include parts of A in B. 2015-07-09T06:08:39Z theos: oh. so sbcl license is for distributing sbcl and not software compiled with it? 2015-07-09T06:08:40Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Programs compiled with gcc are not auto GPL'd. 2015-07-09T06:09:26Z theos: Petit_Dejeuner_ i think i heard RMS say that linux is GNU/Linux because it used gcc and other tools? 2015-07-09T06:09:42Z aeth: If you make some clever language in Common Lisp, and want to make an emacs mode to edit it, you can GPL the emacs mode without having to GPL the program that compiles/interprets the language. I'm guessing this is because the emacs mode is derived from emacs, but the actual program itself doesn't have anything to do with emacs (you can also write the hypothetical language in vim or ed) 2015-07-09T06:09:44Z H4ns: i would still say that it is a failure to the intent of the gpl if one uses gpl'ed programs to produce non-gpl'ed software. 2015-07-09T06:10:04Z aeth: But I think that's the extent of where using emacs can make you use the GPL. 2015-07-09T06:10:15Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-09T06:10:21Z jackdaniel: H4ns: i wouldn't 2015-07-09T06:10:32Z H4ns: all that talk about how to smart-ass the gpl is just failing to help the original point of the free software foundation. 2015-07-09T06:10:38Z Petit_Dejeuner_: "i think i heard RMS say that linux is GNU/Linux because it used gcc and other tools?" That's about credit. The GNU guys created everything that isn't the kernel and they dislike being forgotten or ignored. It's not about licensing. 2015-07-09T06:11:15Z jackdaniel: H4ns: but I agree with second statement 2015-07-09T06:11:17Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner_: same line of belief, though: "if i created it, i get a say in how it is used". 2015-07-09T06:11:34Z theos: ^^ 2015-07-09T06:11:46Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Are you referring to my last line or the previous one? 2015-07-09T06:11:58Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner_: about the credit 2015-07-09T06:12:17Z aeth: H4ns: There's nothing stopping someone from forking the AGPLv3 adding additional restrictions to try to increase the virality. 2015-07-09T06:12:17Z jackdaniel: it's not about usage, but appreciation of effort 2015-07-09T06:12:19Z Petit_Dejeuner_: "used" You might need to define that. 2015-07-09T06:12:28Z aeth: The AGPL started outside of GNU, they might like this new license too. 2015-07-09T06:12:35Z Petit_Dejeuner_: AGPL is great 2015-07-09T06:12:36Z kristof: This is quite off-topic for this channel. 2015-07-09T06:13:00Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-09T06:13:01Z Petit_Dejeuner_: it's late and all the ops are sleeping 2015-07-09T06:13:04Z aeth: I at least have been trying to stay on topic with specific Common Lisp related licensing examples. 2015-07-09T06:13:26Z aeth: It can be on topic, I think. Lisp does complicate some of the licensing because the licenses are written with C in mind. 2015-07-09T06:13:50Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:14:00Z H4ns: it is a dead horse beaten to death thousands of times already. 2015-07-09T06:14:10Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:14:18Z jackdaniel: yet you hold a stick like all of us 2015-07-09T06:14:25Z aeth: H4ns: But I must continue recursively beating the dead horse until it returns nil. 2015-07-09T06:14:28Z jackdaniel roars 2015-07-09T06:14:33Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T06:14:37Z jackdaniel: time to do something productive, see you later o/ 2015-07-09T06:14:46Z H4ns: i'd not mind declaring all license discussions off-topic for #lisp :) 2015-07-09T06:14:59Z Petit_Dejeuner_: #lisplicense 2015-07-09T06:15:23Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:15:53Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:16:24Z aeth: H4ns: actually there are some cases where licenses could be very on topic, e.g. when discussing libraries in Quicklisp 2015-07-09T06:17:45Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T06:17:45Z aeth: And e.g. maybe Quicklisp should automatically check to make sure that if something with :license depends on libraries that are "GPL" then it itself is "GPL" or "AGPL" 2015-07-09T06:18:02Z H4ns: aeth: that would be a file topic for discussion in #quicklisp 2015-07-09T06:18:07Z H4ns: fine topic 2015-07-09T06:18:18Z aeth: bah 2015-07-09T06:18:32Z salva joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:18:38Z aeth: I should start a campaign to get Quicklisp added to the CL standard, then, so licenses can be on topic again here. :-p 2015-07-09T06:18:55Z H4ns: you really love license discussions, don't you? 2015-07-09T06:18:57Z theos: thanks everyone 2015-07-09T06:19:00Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T06:20:44Z aeth: H4ns: sadly, yes, I have thought about licenses too much and would probably actively participate in #lisplicense 2015-07-09T06:23:08Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:27:08Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:27:47Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-09T06:31:16Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:31:22Z Grue`` is now known as Grue` 2015-07-09T06:32:14Z dripping_nut joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:32:14Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:32:19Z dripping_nut: holy hell SICP is boring. it has to be the most boring text i've ever read in my life... and people call this an introductory text? 2015-07-09T06:33:37Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T06:33:49Z dripping_nut: overly flowery, technical text with diction not at all akin to a prototypical beginner is NOT a good introduction to compsci. 2015-07-09T06:34:13Z Shinmera: different strokes for different folks 2015-07-09T06:34:39Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T06:35:10Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:35:17Z dripping_nut: i reckon so, Shinmera. 2015-07-09T06:35:43Z dripping_nut: at least i know understand the reasoning for the negative side of the amazon reviews for the book. 2015-07-09T06:36:02Z dripping_nut: *now 2015-07-09T06:36:47Z Shinmera: SICP is scheme as well, and this is a CL channel, so people here would not normally recommend it. 2015-07-09T06:37:51Z aeth: dripping_nut: It has its moments of genius. "good-enough?" is a brilliant function name imo. 2015-07-09T06:37:55Z Shinmera: If you want to complain and be on topic you should try #scheme 2015-07-09T06:38:53Z eli joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:38:53Z eli quit (Changing host) 2015-07-09T06:38:53Z eli joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:40:09Z dripping_nut: aeth: i don't think opinions on the book would be so polarizing if it wasn't commonly considered to be an introductory/beginner text. 2015-07-09T06:41:37Z H4ns: dripping_nut: it is a beginner text for non-cs academics. 2015-07-09T06:43:03Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T06:43:24Z aeth: It's an introductory/beginner text for *MIT*. 2015-07-09T06:43:30Z aeth: (or was, at least) 2015-07-09T06:43:33Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:44:01Z aeth: That's an important distinction. 2015-07-09T06:48:03Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T06:48:44Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T06:49:36Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:52:26Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:54:22Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T06:54:40Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T06:55:03Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T06:56:21Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-09T07:01:49Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:02:00Z copycat: hi 2015-07-09T07:02:07Z copycat: any graphical editors written in common lisp? 2015-07-09T07:02:21Z Shinmera: What kind of graphical editor 2015-07-09T07:02:23Z copycat: i know autocad is written in autolisp 2015-07-09T07:02:42Z Shinmera: But it's not 2015-07-09T07:03:04Z Shinmera: AutoCAD supports AutoLISP as a scripting language. It isn't itself written in AutoLISP. 2015-07-09T07:03:19Z copycat: im not sure what different kinds of graphical editors there are 2015-07-09T07:03:35Z copycat: let's just say cad file editing 2015-07-09T07:04:46Z Shinmera: I don't know of any CAD editors that are written in Lisp. 2015-07-09T07:04:53Z H4ns: copycat: you need to be more specific, really. are you interested in knowing whether one can write cad programs in lisp? or whether any popular cad programs _are_ written in lisp? or do you want to hack on an open source cad program that is written in lisp? 2015-07-09T07:05:06Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:05:10Z copycat: first and second really 2015-07-09T07:05:19Z H4ns: copycat: yes and no. 2015-07-09T07:05:43Z copycat: darn 2015-07-09T07:05:50Z copycat: any example of complex guis developed in cl? 2015-07-09T07:05:59Z Shinmera: How complex are we talking? 2015-07-09T07:06:07Z H4ns: copycat: http://opusmodus.com/ 2015-07-09T07:06:18Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:06:32Z copycat: i would think that a graphical editor like autocad would be pretty complex 2015-07-09T07:06:56Z copycat: games count too i guess, but i'm not interested in these 2015-07-09T07:08:10Z dripping_nut left #lisp 2015-07-09T07:08:12Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-09T07:08:32Z copycat: what kind of libraries were used to make opusmodus? 2015-07-09T07:08:45Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:08:47Z H4ns: copycat: to my knowledge, it was written in clozure cl with cocoa 2015-07-09T07:09:16Z Shinmera: There's https://github.com/Shinmera/parasol but I haven't worked on it in a long while. 2015-07-09T07:09:26Z Shinmera: And I don't know if that counts as "complex" 2015-07-09T07:09:37Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T07:11:21Z aerique joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:11:47Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-09T07:12:18Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T07:13:43Z copycat: how does cl "drop down" to c? 2015-07-09T07:13:43Z Shinmera: Looks like I last worked on it in January or so. https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TXpJNQ== 2015-07-09T07:19:22Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:21:13Z copycat: shinmera, why did you start learning cl? 2015-07-09T07:21:25Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T07:21:37Z Shinmera: Because it seemed different and interesting :shrug: 2015-07-09T07:21:37Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾ 2015-07-09T07:22:33Z copycat: gui options for cl don't look so great.. 2015-07-09T07:23:00Z copycat: what other kind of programs could i get started with? 2015-07-09T07:23:12Z copycat: my first few projects were guis 2015-07-09T07:23:18Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ 2015-07-09T07:23:28Z p_l: well, people make a lot of stuff with simplistic things like devdraw 2015-07-09T07:24:08Z p_l lol'd today when someone asked RSC about whether he used go-qml for his presentation software, only to find he used Plan9's draw ported to run on OSX 2015-07-09T07:24:19Z loke: jackdaniel: around? 2015-07-09T07:25:02Z loke: With some luck, jackdaniel will see this at some point. The bug that I reported yesterday seems to be in CFFI. I analysed it and I think I know why it happens: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1472926 2015-07-09T07:28:24Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:34:13Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:34:49Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T07:36:04Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:42:30Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:43:47Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:47:30Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:50:02Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T07:51:16Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T07:52:02Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:53:02Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:56:14Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T07:56:53Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-09T07:59:09Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:01:34Z farhaven_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:01:42Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:03:05Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:05:12Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T08:06:15Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:11:04Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-09T08:13:16Z frkout quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T08:16:57Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-09T08:18:22Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2015-07-09T08:21:05Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:25:19Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:26:23Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi 2015-07-09T08:31:23Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:31:55Z jackdaniel: loke: thanks for update, should I close report on gitlab then? 2015-07-09T08:32:31Z loke: jackdaniel: Can you check if the CFFI implementation for ECL is broken? 2015-07-09T08:32:42Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: hi, if you have a question, just hit me with memo or query 2015-07-09T08:32:51Z loke: It seems as though they are doign what they do becauseof a limitation? 2015-07-09T08:32:53Z jackdaniel: yes, but not before 19CET 2015-07-09T08:32:59Z loke: sure :-) 2015-07-09T08:33:10Z loke: All I really wanted you to do is read the comment in the cffi code 2015-07-09T08:33:22Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:33:26Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: no only to inform you that the app is almost ready, yesterday I tested the lcd and i2c interface software 2015-07-09T08:34:39Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T08:34:55Z jackdaniel: loke: it can be implemented (invoke command second part that is - output) 2015-07-09T08:35:18Z jackdaniel: only limitation of output stream in ecl is that it's stream has to have file handle, therefore it can't be gray stream 2015-07-09T08:35:31Z jackdaniel: output stream from run-command I mean 2015-07-09T08:35:48Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:35:53Z jackdaniel: but if you give :output :stream to run-command, it will create by itself valid stream, which can be read 2015-07-09T08:36:00Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: congratz :) 2015-07-09T08:36:15Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: thanks to ecl 2015-07-09T08:36:57Z jackdaniel: write tutorial for ecl quarterly ;-) I'll be back later o/ 2015-07-09T08:36:58Z nml joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:38:09Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:39:47Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: how!!?!? 2015-07-09T08:40:40Z jackdaniel: you know, emacs, keyboard :) if it's related to ecl and has content, ill include it obviously 2015-07-09T08:40:56Z jackdaniel: loke: or command (ext:system …) may be used 2015-07-09T08:41:07Z jackdaniel: I think I fixed this bug in iolib tough, hm 2015-07-09T08:41:32Z jackdaniel: no I didn't 2015-07-09T08:43:48Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:44:31Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:45:02Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:45:34Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:45:51Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-09T08:46:47Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:46:56Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:47:12Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:47:12Z low-profile quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:47:12Z Fade quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:47:19Z Fade joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:47:36Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:47:38Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:48:04Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:49:01Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T08:49:05Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:49:26Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:50:49Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:54:13Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:54:37Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:55:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:56:11Z loz joined #lisp 2015-07-09T08:56:12Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T08:56:18Z loz: greetings 2015-07-09T08:56:29Z loz: any smalltalk-guys here?) 2015-07-09T09:00:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T09:01:45Z low-profile joined #lisp 2015-07-09T09:02:55Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T09:14:16Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-09T09:17:22Z Zotan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T09:17:38Z loke: loz: Sometimes we make smalltalk 2015-07-09T09:17:57Z loke: jackdaniel: What did you have for lunch today (that's smalltalk) 2015-07-09T09:18:29Z loz: loke: I wonder how did they make code blocks 2015-07-09T09:18:40Z loke: loz: Who? 2015-07-09T09:19:00Z loz: ones you can pass to if / for methods 2015-07-09T09:19:10Z loz: loke: smalltalkers) 2015-07-09T09:19:16Z loke: Lisp uses the IF form: (IF clause then else) 2015-07-09T09:19:28Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-07-09T09:24:28Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T09:28:38Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T09:29:28Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-09T09:32:06Z Niac quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T09:36:27Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T09:38:44Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T09:39:39Z magical-imouto quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T09:42:37Z magical-imouto joined #lisp 2015-07-09T09:43:55Z jdz: loz: aren't code blocks in smaltalk closures? 2015-07-09T09:47:20Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-09T09:48:22Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-09T09:49:39Z jackdaniel: hm, nothing yet. not sure tough, probably rice with sausage and onion 2015-07-09T09:49:48Z jackdaniel: ;-) 2015-07-09T09:53:28Z duscae joined #lisp 2015-07-09T09:54:02Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-09T09:55:25Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T09:55:56Z duscae: calling all lispers! 2015-07-09T09:56:44Z duscae: would you all agree that lisp is practically an immortal language, by virtue of being THE most adaptable language of every PL out there? 2015-07-09T09:57:36Z Posterdati: and you are? 2015-07-09T09:58:20Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T09:58:43Z duscae: i'm duscae, random IRC lurker and random query-making extraodinaire. you? 2015-07-09T09:59:20Z duscae: what's your take on the above question? 2015-07-09T09:59:27Z jdz: duscae: to get an answer to that question you'd first have to define "lisp" 2015-07-09T09:59:48Z jdz: duscae: and therein would probably lie an answer to your question 2015-07-09T10:00:13Z duscae: jdz: very true. i'm referring to the lisp dialect common lisp. 2015-07-09T10:01:04Z duscae: jdz: is it not the most adaptable language of them all, famous for being capable of assimilating features from other languages? 2015-07-09T10:01:27Z duscae: i'm no expert and lisp is an interesting family of languages to me. :) 2015-07-09T10:02:30Z jdz: the language itself is very flexible and powerful, but you must also consider the environment. for instance, the language does not have any notion of threading/concurrent/parallel programming 2015-07-09T10:03:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T10:04:25Z jdz: but the fact that implementations can provide that facility while still maintaining conformance to the standard is a testament to your statement 2015-07-09T10:04:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:04:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-09T10:04:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:05:47Z jackdaniel: I'd replace "THE most" with "very", unless you mastered all languages in the wild ;) 2015-07-09T10:06:31Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:08:16Z duscae: peter norvig said the following: 2015-07-09T10:08:22Z duscae: "Lisp is the most adaptable language ever –The key to survival is to find a new niche –In 30 years Lisp will likely be ahead of C++/Java (but behind something else)..." 2015-07-09T10:09:15Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:11:42Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-09T10:11:54Z schjetne`: Has anyone here worked with ZeroMQ? There seems to be a lot of different bindings for it. 2015-07-09T10:12:29Z schjetne` is now known as schjetne 2015-07-09T10:13:17Z jdz: i know Ravenpack are using ZeroMQ, but not sure which bindings they're using 2015-07-09T10:13:38Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-09T10:14:25Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:14:33Z jdz: check last year's ELS lightning talks 2015-07-09T10:16:17Z schjetne: jdz: thanks, I will 2015-07-09T10:18:05Z duscae quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-09T10:18:23Z jdz: schjetne: http://medias.ircam.fr/search/?q=lisp 2015-07-09T10:18:39Z schjetne: I found the video 2015-07-09T10:18:53Z jdz: oh, good 2015-07-09T10:18:54Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-09T10:19:45Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:21:25Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:23:20Z schaueho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T10:24:20Z schjetne: They seem to be transitioning to lisp-zmq, should be pretty good if they are using it. And it even has some docs. 2015-07-09T10:26:11Z Patzy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:26:25Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:28:18Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-09T10:29:25Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:32:04Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:33:51Z Vityok: jdz: I doubt other programming languages have a notion of threads embedded into their definition 2015-07-09T10:34:34Z schjetne: A lot of popular languages hardly even have definitions 2015-07-09T10:34:39Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-09T10:34:56Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:35:29Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:36:02Z jdz: Vityok: for instance Java has "synchronized" and "volatile" keywords 2015-07-09T10:37:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:37:47Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:39:09Z jackdaniel: doesn't erlang has such primitives? 2015-07-09T10:40:25Z p_l: jackdaniel: Erlang has primitives for communication 2015-07-09T10:40:33Z jackdaniel: mhm 2015-07-09T10:40:41Z p_l: technically speaking erlang the language has no mention concurrency or threading 2015-07-09T10:46:14Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:47:04Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:47:38Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T10:50:25Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-09T10:54:01Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T10:54:33Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-09T10:59:22Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:02:47Z loz quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-09T11:03:03Z loz joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:04:33Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:04:44Z wedesoft joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:05:18Z chrnybo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T11:07:33Z renard_ left #lisp 2015-07-09T11:09:34Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T11:10:03Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:10:18Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:11:50Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:13:32Z someone quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:14:03Z crocket joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:14:07Z someon joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:14:12Z crocket left #lisp 2015-07-09T11:14:39Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T11:17:16Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:17:47Z Vityok: jdz: iirc synchronized in Java is aking to synthatic sugar that avoids boilerplate to acquire-release locks 2015-07-09T11:18:14Z jdz: Vityok: why would you need locks? 2015-07-09T11:20:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:20:08Z Vityok: or mutexes 2015-07-09T11:21:05Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:21:17Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T11:21:24Z jdz: yes 2015-07-09T11:22:37Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T11:23:04Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:23:58Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:29:00Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:32:09Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:34:03Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:36:54Z wedesoft quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:37:11Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:37:22Z cmatei_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:37:30Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:37:32Z cmatei_ is now known as cmatei 2015-07-09T11:38:29Z cmatei quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T11:38:41Z cmatei joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:40:28Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:43:37Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:43:53Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:44:13Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:44:46Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:45:26Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:46:09Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T11:46:18Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:47:39Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T11:48:44Z cmatei_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:49:47Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:51:17Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T11:52:36Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:53:10Z wedesoft joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:54:31Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:54:50Z wedesoft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T11:55:45Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-09T11:59:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T12:01:54Z not_tfl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T12:02:51Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:08:11Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:08:17Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-09T12:08:34Z someon is now known as someone 2015-07-09T12:10:03Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-09T12:10:14Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:10:47Z pjb: jackdaniel: there are tools developed (by teachers to catch cheating students) to compare programs and see if one is derived from another. 2015-07-09T12:13:11Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-09T12:14:08Z pjb: theos: beware, even if you don't release your code, if you give access to it thru the Internet, and if it includes AGPL3 libraries (such as com.informatimago), then you will have to provide the sources! 2015-07-09T12:14:25Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:15:24Z theos: pjb but how will anyone find out what libs it uses if its closed source? 2015-07-09T12:15:25Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:15:27Z jackdaniel: pjb: I'm aware of that, original question was "how do they find out…" in context not realeasing your own source, and while it is possible, it isn't that straightforward as abovementiond programs 2015-07-09T12:15:31Z zacharias quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T12:15:50Z pjb: theos: some information can be leaked: output formats, results from specific algorithms, etc. 2015-07-09T12:16:14Z pjb: jackdaniel: well, ^; otherwise, indeed I assumed availability of binaries. 2015-07-09T12:17:29Z jackdaniel: even having binaries doesn't make it easy, unless you specifically know what it could steal from (unless they're not stripped) 2015-07-09T12:17:53Z pjb: no, the comparison algorithms compares the structure of the code. It works well on binaries. 2015-07-09T12:18:11Z pjb: Of course, the first thing smart copying students do is to search and replace all the identifiers… 2015-07-09T12:18:32Z theos: pjb thats a good point. 2015-07-09T12:18:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-09T12:18:41Z pjb: It's basically a graph comparison. 2015-07-09T12:19:10Z jackdaniel: maybe it's my horrible english, but I'm prety sure I've mentioned "unles you specifically know what it could steal from" 2015-07-09T12:19:35Z jackdaniel: s/prety/pretty/ s/unles/unless/ 2015-07-09T12:19:43Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:19:48Z pjb: You just fetch all the apps in the appstore, and compare all of them with your libraries :-) 2015-07-09T12:20:15Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:23:32Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T12:23:50Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:24:05Z theos: what if your software depends on gpl software? dependencies etc 2015-07-09T12:24:17Z pjb: Then it will have to be GPL. 2015-07-09T12:24:37Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-09T12:24:42Z pjb: theos: basically, the question is whether your program is a derived work of the GPL software it depends on. 2015-07-09T12:25:16Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:25:20Z pjb: Juridicaly, "dependencies" are not too relevant AFAIK. What counts is the "derived work" notion. 2015-07-09T12:25:32Z theos: i see. so i have to write my own software from scratch. 2015-07-09T12:25:45Z pjb: Therefore if you write a library that is not derived work of the GPL library, you will be able to release it under your own license (even privative). 2015-07-09T12:26:17Z pjb: You can then write a derived work of both your library and the GPL, and here the GPL will trump over and impose the GPL on your derived work (but not on the other libraries that are not derived work). 2015-07-09T12:26:26Z pjb: Hence the importance of modularization! 2015-07-09T12:26:55Z theos: thats one of the reasons i dont like GPL and licenses in general 2015-07-09T12:27:33Z pjb: But notice the terms of the GPL in this case: you must provide the source of the derived work, and the build scripts and all the necessary files to recompile the sources and rebuild the binaries. This means, if you include a privative library, that you must provide the .a or .o containing it, needed to link the binaries. 2015-07-09T12:28:44Z pjb: It is fair: it allows users to modify the library and your derived work! 2015-07-09T12:29:31Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T12:33:10Z pjb: H4ns: using gpl software to produce non-gpl software is not a failure of gpl. You have to understand, that the GPL is based 100% on the copyright law, and exploits it to the fullest. What happens here, is that the produced software is not a _derived_work_ of the tools used to create it, therefore copyright law doesn't apply, therefore gpl doesn't apply. 2015-07-09T12:34:11Z Guthur quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T12:34:16Z pjb: Now of course, if you write a REPL program using clisp and save an executable image of it, you will have a hard time convincing anybody that your REPL is not a derived work of clisp, hence you will have to release it under GPL with your sources. 2015-07-09T12:34:21Z theos looks up what derived work means 2015-07-09T12:34:39Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T12:37:08Z otjura quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T12:37:09Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:37:42Z renard_ quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2015-07-09T12:38:08Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:38:14Z pjb: aeth: basically, lisp doesn't complicate things over C, per se, because what matter in all cases, is what judges determine is derived work or not. Technicalities such as how it's built or linked don't matter at all here. 2015-07-09T12:38:57Z pjb: aeth: In the old times, perhaps the difference was that you could get privative software written in C delivered as binary libraries, while lisp software would more often be distributed as sources (but then, lisp was more open source than C). But nowadays, apart from some firmware binary blobs, who still uses privative libraries? 2015-07-09T12:44:25Z switchp0rt joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:44:36Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:47:42Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T12:51:29Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:55:43Z switchp0rt quit (Changing host) 2015-07-09T12:55:43Z switchp0rt joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:55:52Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:56:03Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:56:41Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T12:56:55Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-09T12:57:47Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:01:13Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:03:37Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:06:01Z pacon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-09T13:07:44Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:07:56Z pacon quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T13:08:02Z jusss joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:14:12Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:20:08Z pie_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:21:09Z n1x joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:21:55Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T13:22:53Z Carisius joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:23:55Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:27:36Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T13:28:46Z qubitner1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-09T13:30:22Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-09T13:31:02Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:31:20Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:31:55Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:33:48Z cpopell3 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:34:06Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:34:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T13:36:27Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:36:51Z ceryo quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T13:36:56Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:37:10Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:37:57Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:38:42Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:40:22Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:40:54Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:41:23Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:43:33Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T13:47:08Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:47:41Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T13:47:45Z nixmaniack joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:47:46Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:50:32Z n1x quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T13:52:59Z nixmaniack quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-09T13:54:33Z nixmaniack joined #lisp 2015-07-09T13:57:48Z nixmaniack quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-09T13:58:45Z n1x joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:00:14Z ceryo quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-09T14:07:02Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:10:12Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:13:21Z oleo: hello 2015-07-09T14:19:00Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T14:21:33Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:21:45Z dlowe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2015-07-09T14:29:14Z dlowe joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:31:13Z nml quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T14:32:12Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T14:32:59Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T14:33:28Z flip214: Is there some effort to keep http://paste.lisp.org/ spam-free? 2015-07-09T14:33:39Z flip214: *any 2015-07-09T14:35:29Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:36:56Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:37:15Z Shinmera: There's been some talk about spam filters, but I don't know what happened to that 2015-07-09T14:39:52Z prphp joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:40:16Z Guthur quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T14:43:42Z flip214: okay... seems like it's being abused. thanks! 2015-07-09T14:44:28Z |3b|: yeah, it frequently is :/ 2015-07-09T14:44:30Z Shinmera: I'm not sure who the best person is to talk to about this. I think stassats might be responsible? 2015-07-09T14:44:40Z Shinmera: Maybe ehu as well. 2015-07-09T14:44:59Z easye: Yes, ehu and stasstats are the ones to talk to. 2015-07-09T14:45:25Z pjb: Perhaps using a harder captcha would help? 2015-07-09T14:45:27Z easye: Last I heard (a month ago), they were looking at adding a Bayesian filtering system. 2015-07-09T14:45:59Z pjb: Just identifying duplicate/repeatitive pastes would help too. 2015-07-09T14:46:15Z pjb: Bayesian can be fooled with filler words. 2015-07-09T14:46:35Z flip214: well, simply restricting to lisp might help ;) 2015-07-09T14:46:45Z isoraqathedh: Or just code. 2015-07-09T14:46:52Z |3b|: lots of legitimate content is pretty random 2015-07-09T14:46:53Z dlowe: that will just force them to put their spam in comments 2015-07-09T14:46:58Z |3b|: build logs, asm dumps, etc 2015-07-09T14:47:14Z pjb: Yes, there is a lot of non purely lisp stuff. 2015-07-09T14:47:46Z H4ns: What's the problem with the spam? 2015-07-09T14:47:59Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T14:48:11Z dlowe: H4ns: on lisppaste 2015-07-09T14:48:12Z oleo: non purely lisp, pffft, most of it is pron dude, wake up! 2015-07-09T14:48:40Z pjb: Well, actually the problem is that it's hard to find old pastes. The search engines don't work well enough (perhaps google is slow at indexing it). I've started writing a search engine for lisppaste with montezuma. 2015-07-09T14:48:42Z H4ns: dlowe: sure, but i don't see the issue. is it about hygiene? disk space? something i don't see? 2015-07-09T14:49:08Z easye: I thought Montezuma was dead. 2015-07-09T14:49:16Z pjb: H4ns: you could browse the list of paste, but nowadays you've got one good paste on page listing spam. 2015-07-09T14:49:21Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:49:26Z pjb: easye: anything better? 2015-07-09T14:49:37Z easye: No, I was sad to see it go. 2015-07-09T14:49:49Z pjb: it's free software, it never dies or go. 2015-07-09T14:49:58Z easye: But dropped from Quicklisp, right? 2015-07-09T14:50:14Z pjb: I didn't notice. 2015-07-09T14:50:24Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:50:28Z easye: No, it is still in Quicklisp. 2015-07-09T14:50:29Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:50:33Z easye: My mistake. 2015-07-09T14:51:01Z pjb: So far, the problem I've found is that it's not thead safe, so I have to change the architecture of my stuff… 2015-07-09T14:51:12Z aftershave joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:51:33Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-09T14:51:53Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:55:33Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:55:34Z jangle joined #lisp 2015-07-09T14:55:46Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T14:55:48Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-09T14:56:24Z jangle quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T14:57:09Z schjetne: pjb: I use Elasticsearch, but my bindings are too hackish and need to be rewritten 2015-07-09T14:57:25Z pjb: No FFI. 2015-07-09T14:57:28Z schjetne: Also there's the downside of having to run a whole extra program 2015-07-09T14:57:43Z schjetne: Not FFI, just a REST client 2015-07-09T14:58:19Z schjetne: But I guess that's even worse than calling out to an FFI 2015-07-09T14:58:24Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-09T15:00:00Z pjb: Also, sources of lisppaste are currently unavailable, that doesn't promote collaboration. is dead. ftp://common-lisp.net/pub/project/lisppaste/lisppaste2.3.tar.gz https://common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste/ doesn't indicate the new git repo, the obvious git clone http://common-lisp.net/projects/lisppaste/lisppaste.git is repository not found. 2015-07-09T15:00:31Z pjb: Some server have changed/migrated, and unfortunately, there's a lot of old web pages everywhere that would need updating… 2015-07-09T15:02:47Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-09T15:03:09Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T15:05:37Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T15:05:38Z pjb: Ah, it's in git clone https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/lisppaste/new-bots.git 2015-07-09T15:09:48Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-09T15:11:28Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T15:16:40Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T15:17:17Z aftershave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-09T15:18:51Z aftershave joined #lisp 2015-07-09T15:21:31Z cpopell3 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 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accounts, then a much harder captcha could be used for anonymous pastes 2015-07-09T15:49:44Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-09T15:50:00Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T15:50:11Z jasom: if the paste is really just for this channel, then you could require a nick registered with freenode, and at paste creation time say "pm lisppaste on freenode with this code: XXXX" or something 2015-07-09T15:50:47Z subopt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T15:51:17Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T15:51:31Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T15:51:34Z subopt joined #lisp 2015-07-09T15:52:21Z Bike: in ancient times there was a lisppastebot, you could just have that again and check for +i. 2015-07-09T15:53:50Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-09T15:55:21Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-07-09T15:55:55Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T15:58:27Z |3b|: it isn't just this channel 2015-07-09T15:59:06Z farhaven_ is now known as farhaven 2015-07-09T15:59:18Z |3b|: enough spam checking to re-enable the bots would be nice though 2015-07-09T16:01:35Z shka: any standard idea to manage unit tests with ql? 2015-07-09T16:01:49Z shka: i can create separate project 2015-07-09T16:01:58Z shka: but perhaps there is a better way 2015-07-09T16:02:00Z aftershave joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:02:01Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T16:03:07Z pjb: shka: you can. 2015-07-09T16:03:25Z shka: ok 2015-07-09T16:03:29Z pjb: shka: I do have separate test systems for each of my systems, since for testing, I load different libraries and different files in addition to the tested system. 2015-07-09T16:03:45Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T16:03:58Z shka: ok 2015-07-09T16:04:06Z pjb: Check the asd files in https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master 2015-07-09T16:04:07Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T16:04:20Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T16:04:23Z shka: also, fiveAM is any good? 2015-07-09T16:05:04Z pjb: Perhaps. When I tried it it wasn't satisfactory, because I had to test end-to-end processing chains with different processes (and even, on different computers). 2015-07-09T16:05:05Z Bike: fiveam's aight 2015-07-09T16:05:05Z contrapunctus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T16:05:11Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:05:21Z pjb: But I assume for simple libraries, it might be good. in anycase, I have my own SIMPLE-TEST package. 2015-07-09T16:05:46Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T16:06:49Z pjb: basically, in a defsystem :com.informatimago, I have this clause: :in-order-to ((asdf:test-op (asdf:test-op "com.informatimago.test"))), and in a .test.asd defsystem form, I have: #+asdf3 :perform #+asdf3 (asdf:test-op (operation system) #|call testing code|#). 2015-07-09T16:07:25Z pjb: But check the indirection, since the testing code is not loaded yet when loading the test system! https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.test.asd 2015-07-09T16:07:39Z shka: pjb: sadly, gpl 2015-07-09T16:07:53Z pjb: Go read ASDF manual then! 2015-07-09T16:08:04Z pjb: I'll watch you to check for derived work! 2015-07-09T16:08:12Z metaphysician quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-09T16:09:07Z shka: pjb: i want to go for either BSD or MIT license, i don't want to mess with gpl 2015-07-09T16:10:24Z pjb: Nonetheless, if you've been influenced by anything I've said here, you might be writing some derived work without knowing. I'll scrutinize your work! Call your lawyer. 2015-07-09T16:11:22Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:11:34Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: knock it off 2015-07-09T16:12:24Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:13:02Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-09T16:13:49Z shka: pjb: i don't know where are you going 2015-07-09T16:14:06Z shka: you picked gpl to limit use of your library 2015-07-09T16:14:14Z shka: now i won't use it 2015-07-09T16:14:23Z shka: so good for you 2015-07-09T16:14:32Z shka: why are you mocking me? 2015-07-09T16:14:44Z theos: are we still talking about licenses? 2015-07-09T16:14:56Z contrapunctus: theos: s/^/why / 2015-07-09T16:14:58Z Shinmera: The ride never ends 2015-07-09T16:15:34Z fe[nl]ix: y'all, it's off-topic so please stop 2015-07-09T16:22:21Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:25:42Z eudoxia: i use fiveam for everything because... i don't know, actually. i think i read a blog post about it. 2015-07-09T16:25:56Z eudoxia: also travis ci for automatic testing 2015-07-09T16:26:38Z pjb: shka: I'm mocking you for your unjustified fears. Boo! 2015-07-09T16:27:12Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 2015-07-09T16:27:14Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:27:21Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: that's enough 2015-07-09T16:27:26Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:28:18Z cheryllium: Anyone know why allegroserve might hang? I did (require :aserve) followed by (net.aserve:start :port 8000), going to localhost:8000 loads forever 2015-07-09T16:28:21Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T16:28:43Z brpocock: Come, now, next thing we know you'll be waxing rhapsodic about Anna Kournikova, pjb :-/ 2015-07-09T16:28:51Z eudoxia: cheryllium: any errors on the REPL side? 2015-07-09T16:28:56Z fe[nl]ix: brpocock: stop 2015-07-09T16:29:04Z oleo: fewww 2015-07-09T16:29:05Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:29:15Z shka: also 2015-07-09T16:29:24Z cheryllium: eudoxia: No, unless I'm just dumb and don't know where to look. I'm not using slime or anything, just starting from the command line 2015-07-09T16:29:44Z shka: let's say i defined type of sorted array along with assertion to check if it is really sorted 2015-07-09T16:29:47Z eudoxia: cheryllium: well then no idea. why aserve though? 2015-07-09T16:30:02Z cheryllium: I'm looking for any lisp web server, aserve seemed like a good choice 2015-07-09T16:30:03Z shka: however, this assertion is checked only in my debug build 2015-07-09T16:30:14Z cheryllium: Is it not? 2015-07-09T16:30:15Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:30:27Z Shinmera: cheryllium: It's not something people use as a first, usually. 2015-07-09T16:30:35Z cheryllium: Shinmera why is that? 2015-07-09T16:30:38Z eudoxia: cheryllium: http://clacklisp.org/ is what lisp web apps should be built on 2015-07-09T16:30:42Z shka: cheryllium: what are your needs? 2015-07-09T16:30:47Z Shinmera: Or at least around these parts, since we're mostly OSS oriented here. 2015-07-09T16:30:58Z akkad: if clack delivered properly on LW :P 2015-07-09T16:31:04Z fe[nl]ix: cheryllium: aserve has been practically unmaintained for years 2015-07-09T16:31:04Z shka: hunchentoot is actually not that terrible for certain use cases 2015-07-09T16:31:09Z Shinmera: cheryllium: Because hunchentoot is the 'de facto standard not-efficiency-focused' server 2015-07-09T16:31:15Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:31:27Z eudoxia: yes hunchentoot is a good server, but you don't want to write an application that's bound to the server 2015-07-09T16:31:50Z eudoxia: i mean, unless you're extremely committed, clack is the more flexible choice, since you can use hunchentoot or any underlying server that's supported 2015-07-09T16:32:00Z Shinmera: You don't need to commit yourself to clack either. Writing a thin wrapper around hunchentoot is trivial and takes an hour at best. 2015-07-09T16:32:11Z akkad: hunchentoot or hunchentoot 2015-07-09T16:32:13Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T16:32:15Z pjb: shka: assertions should remain in production. Try to write O(1) or at most O(n) assertions. 2015-07-09T16:32:29Z eudoxia: "write your own" isn't really good advice. 2015-07-09T16:32:39Z shka: pjb: i diseagree 2015-07-09T16:32:46Z Shinmera: eudoxia: ? 2015-07-09T16:32:46Z eudoxia: i mean there really is no way to reinvent the wheel when you have an extensively tested, battle-tested platform to work on 2015-07-09T16:32:52Z eudoxia: for this case, i mean 2015-07-09T16:33:06Z pjb: eudoxia: writing your own has the big advantage that when you come back a few years later for maintaince, the API of the libraries has not changed entirely! 2015-07-09T16:33:07Z cheryllium: I don't have huge needs, just looking for something to serve some static pages, some ORM would be nice... I was planning to write on top of a web server, just needed to find a good web server 2015-07-09T16:33:12Z shka: pjb: the problem is that i want to check basicly everything i can, but that would hurt performance 2015-07-09T16:33:14Z eudoxia: if we were talking about, idk, a weather api client, sure, write your own, whatever. but web development is hard and Clack solves a lot of problems. 2015-07-09T16:33:26Z pjb: eudoxia: I had to rewrite a hunchentoot app, because it completely changed how one uses it. 2015-07-09T16:33:35Z cheryllium: What are the downsides to using hunchentoot? I may look into that instead 2015-07-09T16:33:50Z Shinmera: cheryllium: It's not speed oriented, as I said. 2015-07-09T16:33:55Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:34:03Z Shinmera: So you'll want to throw a cache in front of it 2015-07-09T16:34:09Z pjb: None, apart the fact that it may still change its API in the future, since it did in the past. 2015-07-09T16:34:10Z eudoxia: cheryllium: the downside is you're stuck with it. for instance, i just wrote an app where i used hunchentoot for dev, and Woo (a fast web server) for prod for extra performance. 2015-07-09T16:34:11Z pjb: I use it. 2015-07-09T16:34:13Z Shinmera: But other than that it works just fine according to what people report. 2015-07-09T16:34:26Z eudoxia: that would not have been possible had i written the app directly on Hunchentoot, but it is possible thanks to Clack 2015-07-09T16:34:26Z Shinmera: eudoxia: You aren't stuck with it if you're smart about it 2015-07-09T16:34:29Z pjb: cheryllium: in anycase, always clearly modularize your code! 2015-07-09T16:34:35Z eudoxia: cheryllium: consider http://eudoxia.me/lucerne/docs/example--a-twitter-clone.html 2015-07-09T16:34:42Z pjb: cheryllium: write your application independent of the webapp framework you use. 2015-07-09T16:34:51Z eudoxia: Shinmera: with Clack changing web servers is literally changing a keyword from :hunchentoot to :woo 2015-07-09T16:34:54Z cheryllium: pjb That is good advice! 2015-07-09T16:35:09Z Shinmera: eudoxia: But then you /are/ stuck with clack. 2015-07-09T16:35:11Z jasom: eudoxia: until you can't upgrade because clack changed its api... 2015-07-09T16:35:38Z eudoxia: well all my webapps went through the clack/lack update unscathed 2015-07-09T16:35:47Z eudoxia: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2015-07-09T16:36:10Z shka: clack is not that bad 2015-07-09T16:36:15Z jasom: eudoxia: I haven't yet figured out how to do the clack/lack update 2015-07-09T16:36:25Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T16:36:31Z jasom: though I haven't looked to closely, since it's still listed as unstable 2015-07-09T16:36:34Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T16:36:35Z eudoxia: jasom: ql:quickload :clack-v1-compat 2015-07-09T16:36:47Z pjb: To be sure you've modularized correctly, you can even provide two entirely different user interfaces on a give application. Eg. web interface, and ncurses interface, or web interface and mcclim interface, etc. 2015-07-09T16:36:54Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:37:09Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:37:48Z cheryllium: Okay. I'm trying out clack now, it looks promising 2015-07-09T16:38:56Z cheryllium: And pjb thank you, that's good advice and I can see what you're saying now 2015-07-09T16:39:42Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-09T16:39:53Z jasom: I use the REPL as my second interface; if I can't easily perform the basic operations of the webapp from the REPL, then something is wrong. 2015-07-09T16:40:17Z pjb: Definitely. 2015-07-09T16:40:46Z cheryllium: In that case I can start writing my application and even worry about the web interface later 2015-07-09T16:40:52Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:40:59Z pjb: I once implemented subclasses of GUI (window, menu, button, etc), into play format/read-line stuff, to prototype it in the REPL. 2015-07-09T16:41:07Z pjb: s/play/plain/ 2015-07-09T16:41:27Z pjb: cheryllium: that's definitely the right thing to do. Put the interface later on. 2015-07-09T16:41:41Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T16:43:01Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:43:15Z kiwi235711 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:44:55Z shka: oh man, i'm already glad that i started to use unit tests 2015-07-09T16:50:07Z eudoxia: i remember the first unit tests i ran 2015-07-09T16:50:40Z eudoxia: i thought i'd write them like most folks, as an aftertought, but over time i've moved into a kind-of-TDD 2015-07-09T16:50:52Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:51:17Z ``Erik_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T16:52:17Z jasom: eudoxia: OIC there is a v1 compatibility layer for clack v2 2015-07-09T16:52:40Z eudoxia: yep 2015-07-09T16:52:47Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T16:52:53Z jasom: eudoxia: any idea if lack is stable enough to be worth my while to port my backend to it? 2015-07-09T16:53:09Z eudoxia: i wouldn't write an app in clack itself 2015-07-09T16:53:18Z eudoxia: but any of the three web frameworks built on it is pretty stable 2015-07-09T16:53:45Z jasom: well I wrote an app in clack itself :) 2015-07-09T16:53:46Z eudoxia: i would suggest maybe porting it to ningle and see how you like it? 2015-07-09T16:56:17Z pjb: probably better advice would be given on #lispweb 2015-07-09T16:56:29Z pjb: or at least, more precise, about web frameworks. 2015-07-09T16:56:32Z eudoxia: oh i forgot about that channel 2015-07-09T16:57:15Z jasom: eudoxia: I like my router though 2015-07-09T16:57:57Z eudoxia: jasom: i use myway. but here's a thought: pluggable routers for clack web frameworks. 2015-07-09T16:58:00Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T16:59:19Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-09T17:00:29Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:02:16Z munksgaard quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-09T17:04:21Z jasom: I use optima to match on the clack environment, so the rules can be any valid optima rules 2015-07-09T17:05:01Z eudoxia: cool 2015-07-09T17:05:21Z jasom: If your router is pluggable, then what else does a microframework do? 2015-07-09T17:05:43Z qubitner1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T17:06:22Z jasom: I guess session management 2015-07-09T17:06:35Z eudoxia: convenience stuff like defining views and mounting sub-applications 2015-07-09T17:06:37Z jasom: CSRF prevention 2015-07-09T17:06:47Z eudoxia: that's done by clack actually 2015-07-09T17:07:15Z jasom: I couldn't find good middleware documentation, so I wrote my own for those two 2015-07-09T17:07:44Z eudoxia: hmmm 2015-07-09T17:07:49Z eudoxia: i should update the docs 2015-07-09T17:08:04Z eudoxia: or, rather, write them using my doc generator 2015-07-09T17:08:38Z jasom: I wrote a single middleware for both session management and CSRF prevention, since they are closely coupled with the CSRF prevention technique I am using. 2015-07-09T17:09:52Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T17:10:52Z synergy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:10:54Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:12:28Z synergy_: How does lisp work in regards to compilation and running a file? What are the steps I have to take to go from a .lisp file to a runnable program? Is this implementation specific? 2015-07-09T17:12:38Z eudoxia: synergy_: http://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ 2015-07-09T17:12:48Z jasom: allright, I'll update my mongrel2 handler to clackv2 tonight and see how well the v1 compat works with my application 2015-07-09T17:12:54Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:14:48Z jasom: synergy_: It is implementation specific, though nearly all implementations allow you to make a standalone application 2015-07-09T17:15:29Z synergy_: So when is lisp code runnable, after it's compiled? 2015-07-09T17:15:42Z jasom: synergy_: lisp uses incremental compilation 2015-07-09T17:16:21Z |3b|: synergy_: most lisps can evaluate lisp code directly, possibly involving compilation to machine code in the process 2015-07-09T17:17:00Z jasom: synergy_: You typically (ASDF will do this for you) compile a lisp file to a "Fast loading file" or fasl. You can then load that file, and this changes the state of your image. Most implementations let you dump the image to disk, optionally as an executable file. 2015-07-09T17:17:05Z |3b|: lisp developers tend to just run things from the REPL rather than building a binary, though building binaries is usually available when needed (though may not imply compilation to machine code) 2015-07-09T17:17:15Z jasom: cl-launch will abstract all of this for you though. 2015-07-09T17:17:37Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Imo you should use ASDF's program-op to dump a binary nowadays 2015-07-09T17:17:53Z eudoxia: Shinmera: what does it do 2015-07-09T17:17:57Z jasom: Shinmera: is that widely implemented now? 2015-07-09T17:18:21Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Load your system, prepare it for dumping and restoring, dump it. 2015-07-09T17:18:33Z eudoxia: hmm 2015-07-09T17:18:33Z Shinmera: eudoxia: integrates nicely with the system definition too. 2015-07-09T17:18:36Z eudoxia: i should take a look at it 2015-07-09T17:18:50Z Shinmera: Eg https://github.com/Shinmera/halftone/blob/master/halftone.asd#L33 2015-07-09T17:19:09Z Shinmera: All that's left to do then is just `sbcl --eval '(asdf:operate :program-op :halftone)'` 2015-07-09T17:19:21Z Shinmera: (exchange qt-program-op for just program-op for your usual applications. 2015-07-09T17:19:23Z Shinmera: ) 2015-07-09T17:19:35Z jasom: eudoxia: quick snippet from the docs: The program-op operation will create an executable program from the specified system and its dependencies. You can use UIOP for its pre-image-dump hooks, its post-image-restore hooks, and its access to command-line arguments. And you can specify an entry point my-app:main by specifying in your defsystem the option :entry-point "my-app:main". 2015-07-09T17:19:37Z eudoxia: hey, this dll-op thing is interesting 2015-07-09T17:19:46Z Shinmera: jasom: I'm not sure how widely it is, but it definitely works on SBCL and CCL at least. 2015-07-09T17:20:00Z jasom: Shinmera: I'm pretty sure it works on ecl 2015-07-09T17:20:20Z jasom: That's where I first used it, as making a standalone program on ecl without it is not pleasant 2015-07-09T17:20:52Z eudoxia: i'm putting the finishing touches on a library that -- pls forgive -- downloads buildapp shells out to it 2015-07-09T17:21:04Z eudoxia: maybe i should take a look at extending ASDF to do some of this stuff 2015-07-09T17:21:06Z eudoxia: hmm 2015-07-09T17:21:23Z kiwi235711 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T17:22:10Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:24:19Z copycat left #lisp 2015-07-09T17:24:50Z synergy_: So in the repl, I usually wouldn't run compiled code, just my .lisp files 2015-07-09T17:25:16Z synergy_: And once inside the repl, compilation would occur? 2015-07-09T17:25:28Z jasom: synergy_: sort-of 2015-07-09T17:25:31Z ggole quit 2015-07-09T17:25:51Z jasom: synergy_: compilation and loading are separate steps 2015-07-09T17:26:21Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:26:26Z jasom: synergy_: you can load a .lisp file, or load a FASL file (which is the output of compile-file) 2015-07-09T17:26:51Z synergy_: What occurs during the loading step?> 2015-07-09T17:26:54Z jasom: ASDF is a build tool that will manage compiling and loading for you though, and I suggest that for anything more than a one-off script you use ASDF 2015-07-09T17:27:25Z |3b|: synergy_: in some implementations, (almost) everything is compiled, even if you just typed it into the repl 2015-07-09T17:28:05Z jasom: synergy_: modifying your currently running image by executing the code in the file (whether it's .lisp or a compiled .lsip file) 2015-07-09T17:28:21Z jasom: synergy_: that last line should have ended "a compiled .lisp file)" 2015-07-09T17:29:05Z synergy_: And again a compiled .lisp file is a FASL file 2015-07-09T17:29:20Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:29:42Z jasom: synergy_: right, though different implementations may use .fas .fasl etc. for the file extention 2015-07-09T17:29:55Z cpopell3 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:30:06Z jasom: synergy_: (compile-file "/path/to/a/lisp/file.lisp") to see how your implementation does it 2015-07-09T17:30:30Z jasom: (replacing the string with an actual path to a .lisp file, if that wasn't obvious) 2015-07-09T17:30:51Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:31:53Z synergy_: Got ya 2015-07-09T17:32:01Z jasom: loading a file is *similar* to just typing each line from the file into a REPL, though there are some important differences that mostly exist to aid the compiler in optimization and to speed up compilation times 2015-07-09T17:34:04Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T17:34:58Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:38:09Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T17:39:26Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-09T17:44:07Z Shinmera: Does anyone know why in the world an SBCL-dumped binary might eat up all possible CPU when launched as an .app on OS X, but works fine when the actual binary file itself is directly launched? 2015-07-09T17:45:19Z nyef: Shinmera: Oddly enough, a possibility comes to mind. What do you count as "directly launched"? 2015-07-09T17:45:29Z Shinmera: nyef: I double click the binary file. 2015-07-09T17:45:48Z hrr4 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:45:55Z nyef: It's an environmental change, obviously. 2015-07-09T17:45:55Z oGMo: looking for nonexistent terminal io? 2015-07-09T17:46:07Z nyef: That'd be the first thing that comes to mind, yes. 2015-07-09T17:46:13Z Shinmera: oGMo: That would be my guess, but why would that eat up all CPU instead of just terminating 2015-07-09T17:46:30Z Shinmera: Also, how would I tell SBCL not to look for it 2015-07-09T17:46:32Z oGMo: Shinmera: rephrase.. _assuming_ terminal io which is nonexistent ;) 2015-07-09T17:46:43Z Natch_j joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:47:03Z Shinmera: oGMo: It's the most likely thing. When I directly launch it, a terminal pops up. 2015-07-09T17:47:09Z oGMo: you might tell it to use a main function instead of the repl, but i'm not sure 2015-07-09T17:47:12Z oGMo: Shinmera: oh, hrm 2015-07-09T17:47:14Z Shinmera: Which I obviously want to avoid with a GUI app 2015-07-09T17:47:33Z Shinmera: oGMo: It does use a custom main function 2015-07-09T17:47:46Z Shinmera: There's no READing being done from what I know of the code I have 2015-07-09T17:47:52Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T17:47:52Z oGMo: oh, then no idea ;/ 2015-07-09T17:48:43Z arrubin left #lisp 2015-07-09T17:49:27Z nyef: http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/118598/macos-differences-between-running-a-bundled-app-and-running-the-bundles-execut is a possible angle to look at. 2015-07-09T17:50:03Z __009__kk joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:50:15Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:50:26Z Shinmera: Yeah, I do have a rudimentary Info.plist. I guess I'm missing some options that SBCL needs or something. 2015-07-09T17:50:30Z Shinmera: I'll dig around further. 2015-07-09T17:51:02Z Natch_j quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-09T17:51:32Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:51:55Z nyef: If there are no stdio streams open, then attempting to write to standard output would trigger an error, which... You know what? It might be trying to open the tty stream for query-io or something like that... Or trying to get into the debugger. 2015-07-09T17:52:49Z Shinmera: Right. Probably infinitely looping on trying to present the error and opening a debugger or something 2015-07-09T17:53:00Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:53:21Z Shinmera: Though the debugger is disabled, so probably more along the lines of just printing the error 2015-07-09T17:54:13Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-09T17:55:41Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T17:55:52Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-09T17:57:23Z ofosos joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:57:31Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T17:58:07Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:58:22Z ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 2015-07-09T17:58:44Z ofosos: hi, anyone know how usockets policy toward additions to the api is? I want read timeouts and would consider implementing them on 3-4 linux/opensource lisps. Does there have to be support for all platforms to accept a feature? 2015-07-09T17:59:14Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-09T17:59:26Z cheryllium: does anyone here have experience with postmodern? 2015-07-09T18:00:16Z brpocock: some… yes… 2015-07-09T18:00:37Z cheryllium: I read somewhere that deftable is deprecated, do you know if that is true? 2015-07-09T18:01:07Z brpocock: oh, I have not touched the ORM bits at all, sorry. 2015-07-09T18:01:17Z cheryllium: ah okay that's okay. 2015-07-09T18:01:30Z H4ns: deftable is not about orm, it is just a ddl syntax 2015-07-09T18:01:56Z H4ns: cheryllium: and it will not go away, so just use it. 2015-07-09T18:02:03Z brpocock: however, http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/index.html is authoritative, and says no such thing. 2015-07-09T18:02:27Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:02:29Z cheryllium: okay thank you. in that case, could somebody give me an example on how to use it? I am confused by the description 2015-07-09T18:03:22Z cheryllium: Ah nmvd, just found this excellent resource. https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/postmodern-examples/postmodern-table-management#create-with-deftable 2015-07-09T18:07:31Z reb``: ofosos: You should contact the usockets maintainers. If I remember correctly, not all features are supported by every Lisp/OS combination. I would be surprised if read timeouts are currently totally unsupported. 2015-07-09T18:07:45Z jasom: Shinmera: FYI the environment for a .app file is *very* minimal. If you want a .app you're probably better off with ccl 2015-07-09T18:08:56Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:09:23Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:10:01Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:10:17Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-09T18:13:06Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:13:47Z lala quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-09T18:14:16Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:16:21Z cryptopsy joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:16:27Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:16:47Z cryptopsy: can i get automatic management of () brackets in vim so i don't have to manual type and align them myself? 2015-07-09T18:17:28Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-09T18:18:20Z williamyao: cryptopsy: https://github.com/vim-scripts/paredit.vim 2015-07-09T18:24:19Z tyrannozarus_001 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:24:59Z jasom: cryptopsy: also ":set lisp" will get you better lisp indentation 2015-07-09T18:25:12Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:26:48Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T18:29:59Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:30:58Z synergy_: There's also delimitMate for tag pairing in general 2015-07-09T18:31:06Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-09T18:32:06Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:32:23Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for loke: I've fixed %invoke in both cffi and iolib and made pull requests to maintainers - it may take a while tough before they'll wrap new release, so I'd use git versions in local-projects for time being. cl-rabbit loads here fine now 2015-07-09T18:32:23Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell loke when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-09T18:33:07Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for loke: if it's not merged yet in github, check pull requests tab 2015-07-09T18:33:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell loke when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-09T18:33:34Z jackdaniel: I'd suggest to use° 2015-07-09T18:34:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:35:51Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T18:36:18Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:37:25Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:42:24Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T18:45:00Z monod quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-09T18:45:03Z resttime` joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:45:27Z Shinmera: Argh. Not only are stdout/stderr not bound to anything anymore since mountain lion, it's now also complaining about using Pixmaps outside the main thread, even though I'm /not/ using pixmaps, I'm using QImages, which /should/ be thread safe. 2015-07-09T18:45:44Z Shinmera: The latter error appears when I try to use a CCL-dumped binary. 2015-07-09T18:45:54Z Shinmera: SBCL runs fine from the command line at least. 2015-07-09T18:46:05Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:47:27Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T18:47:48Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T18:48:14Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T18:48:35Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:50:20Z jasom: I got an SBCL app to run in a .app container by generating an automater .app that would setup a sane enviornment and launch an executable 2015-07-09T18:50:36Z Shinmera: jasom: Ah-- thanks. I'll give that a shot 2015-07-09T18:50:39Z jasom: but you end up with the automator logo in your docker 2015-07-09T18:50:53Z Shinmera: I'm pretty sure I can change that 2015-07-09T18:50:53Z jasom: Shinmera: I can send you the .app if you want 2015-07-09T18:50:59Z Shinmera: That'd be great! 2015-07-09T18:51:46Z Shinmera: Oh, and I forgot to mention that, immediately following the pixmap warning on CCL, the entire thing crashes due to an unhandled ffi error. 2015-07-09T18:52:22Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:52:59Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-07-09T18:53:00Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:53:07Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:53:39Z Bike: with cl-opengl i'm getting my old friend: error nesting depth exceeded. yaaaaay ffi somethings. 2015-07-09T18:55:54Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T18:57:46Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T18:57:49Z gendl_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T18:58:04Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T18:59:16Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T19:01:02Z jangle joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:01:14Z synergy_: I have a function that adds elements to a list. I tested it out with a dummy entry and it worked. After recompiling, why did the variable still have its dummy contents that I had added? 2015-07-09T19:01:27Z synergy_: The list was made with defvar 2015-07-09T19:01:34Z cheryllium: Does anyone know how to select all rows using postmodern? I have tried :select :all, and 'all and *... 2015-07-09T19:01:44Z flash- joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:01:55Z Xach: synergy_: defvar only initializes a variable if it is not already bound 2015-07-09T19:01:58Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:02:08Z |3b|: cheryllium: '* rather than * maybe? 2015-07-09T19:02:09Z jackdaniel: ynchromeshs: use defparameter if you want to change 2015-07-09T19:02:14Z jackdaniel: synergy_: ° 2015-07-09T19:02:49Z cheryllium: |3b|: That was it!!! Thank you!! 2015-07-09T19:03:05Z synergy_: Xach, but why wouldn't recompiling completely reset the variable? 2015-07-09T19:03:27Z Xach: synergy_: because that is not how common lisp works. if you quit and restart it will start fresh, though. 2015-07-09T19:03:43Z jackdaniel: synergy_: it's not a bug, it's a feature - you have defparameter for the second behaviour 2015-07-09T19:03:47Z |3b|: the point of DEFVAR is to not change it 2015-07-09T19:03:51Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:04:19Z synergy_: So is there some sort of background process that keeps state when I start common lisp? 2015-07-09T19:04:20Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:04:23Z lala joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:04:32Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T19:04:35Z |3b|: it is a foreground process... the lisp you started 2015-07-09T19:04:38Z jackdaniel: synergy_: recompiling some stuff isn't the same as restarting lisp process 2015-07-09T19:04:46Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T19:05:12Z synergy_: |3b|, oh I see 2015-07-09T19:05:34Z gendl_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T19:05:39Z |3b|: you start a lisp, then interact with it through the repl, sort of like interacting with bash or whatever at a shell prompt 2015-07-09T19:05:49Z |3b|: (except with a nicer language and better compiler :) 2015-07-09T19:05:56Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:06:05Z Patzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T19:06:13Z synergy_: So compilation isn't tied to the state that the lisp process keeps 2015-07-09T19:06:24Z |3b|: it might not be the best model for some things, but at this point the language is standardized and we can't really change it 2015-07-09T19:06:32Z dim: after another day solving customer problems in lisp, I can tell you how much I appreciate the tooling ;-) 2015-07-09T19:06:34Z jackdaniel: synergy_: if you use emacs, you can use M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp 2015-07-09T19:06:38Z |3b|: compilation is just a function you can call 2015-07-09T19:06:47Z jackdaniel: to restart lisp process 2015-07-09T19:06:56Z synergy_: Alright, I understand 2015-07-09T19:06:59Z dim: jackdaniel: ,restart-inferior-lisp is what I use 2015-07-09T19:07:02Z |3b|: the state includes things like functions you have defined (compiled or not), variables, etc 2015-07-09T19:07:25Z dim: basically I only type ,r because it remembers what I did last time ;-) 2015-07-09T19:07:31Z |3b|: so CL is defined in terms of making changes to that state, rather than a monolithic "compilation" process like you might have in C 2015-07-09T19:07:47Z jackdaniel: dim: thanks, is really more handy (/me will switch :p) 2015-07-09T19:08:31Z bobbysmith007 left #lisp 2015-07-09T19:08:33Z |3b|: a lot of that dates back to the lisp machines, where you were always running the lisp, because that is all there was 2015-07-09T19:08:50Z synergy_: So let's say I had a function that I compile, then I edit the function and recompile, the function definition is replaced correct? And would that be because functions are initialized each time you compile? 2015-07-09T19:09:09Z |3b|: the DEFUN macro replaces the previous definition when it is evaluated 2015-07-09T19:09:18Z |3b|: independent of compilation 2015-07-09T19:09:56Z |3b|: (along with some other things specific to compilation, mostly to allow other things being compiled to know about the function even if it hasn't actually been loaded yet) 2015-07-09T19:10:06Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:10:36Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T19:10:42Z |3b|: if you compile a file containing a defun, that probably doesn't change any existing definition of that function. if you load the result of that compilation, /then/ the new definition takes effect 2015-07-09T19:11:20Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:11:31Z |3b|: the CL model takes a while to get used to if you are used to c-like languages, but it is much nicer for interactive development 2015-07-09T19:12:01Z |3b|: the edit-compile-run cycle happens at single function level, making iteration much faster 2015-07-09T19:12:55Z |3b|: (and to be more precise, i mean "used to the common implementations of c-like languages", since the language itself doesn't actually require the interaction model imposed by the usual tools) 2015-07-09T19:13:01Z nyef: I hear that some C environments allow an edit-compile-run cycle on the single-function level that affects a running program... 2015-07-09T19:14:09Z synergy_: Ok, so the loading stage is where I should expect state changes to occur to a program? 2015-07-09T19:14:10Z brpocock: Eclipse does so for Java, but I've only seen ugly hacks to allow such things in C (due to C using a edit-compile-LINK-load cycle) 2015-07-09T19:14:17Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-09T19:15:04Z |3b|: right, think of LOADing as evaluating each form in your file one after the other 2015-07-09T19:15:36Z |3b|: DEFVAR forms make sure a variable exists, and optionally initialize it if not. DEFUN forms create(or redefine) functions, etc 2015-07-09T19:16:23Z |3b|: FORMAT forms at the top level print things when the file is loaded, and similarly for anything else you do with side effects 2015-07-09T19:16:33Z |3b|: the side effects happen when the file is loaded 2015-07-09T19:16:55Z |3b|: (you can also arrange for side effects to happen at compile time if required) 2015-07-09T19:17:47Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:18:21Z aeth: What's better Lisp style? (* -1 x y) or (* (- x) y) 2015-07-09T19:19:42Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:20:12Z Xach: I think I would understand (- (* x y)) better. 2015-07-09T19:20:27Z Xach: YMMV 2015-07-09T19:20:28Z |3b| would consider any of them OK depending on context 2015-07-09T19:20:57Z aeth: Xach: ah 2015-07-09T19:21:06Z cpopell3 finished SICP 1.1 last night 2015-07-09T19:21:08Z cpopell3: baby steps. 2015-07-09T19:21:17Z cpopell3: doing it on paper, mostly 2015-07-09T19:22:05Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:22:24Z Ettore quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T19:22:31Z aeth: I was just thinking about exponential decay in Lisp, and Wikipedia says the formula is N_o * e ^ -(λt) 2015-07-09T19:22:51Z |3b|: if transcribing some equation where negating X or Y has a specific meaning, negating it directly in CL is probably better. if you just want the whole thing negated, probably Xach's version. 2015-07-09T19:22:55Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:23:03Z oleo: aeth: good joke 2015-07-09T19:23:34Z Bike: decay constant's lambda but time constants are tau. 2015-07-09T19:23:38Z aeth: I guess in context (- (* )) makes more sense 2015-07-09T19:23:55Z |3b|: yeah, for that -1 would be better than negating one of the terms, but keeping it around the whole thing would be best 2015-07-09T19:23:59Z Bike: also seconding (- (* foo bar)). 2015-07-09T19:24:15Z Bike: thirding? nthing 2015-07-09T19:24:46Z |3b| can't think of many reasons for a constant -1, possibly to contrast with similar forms with other constants 2015-07-09T19:26:24Z Ettore quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T19:26:31Z Bike: it does get kind of weird when it gets long. i have a file with (/ (1+ (exp (/ vhalf v) slope))) 2015-07-09T19:26:46Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:27:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-09T19:27:12Z jackdaniel: Bike: incfing ;) 2015-07-09T19:27:48Z aeth: I always comment formulae in Lisp with some ASCII approximation of the original in infix above if it's not immediately obvious which one it is. 2015-07-09T19:27:54Z oleo: that's why you use prefix to suffix converters..... 2015-07-09T19:27:58Z oleo: and vice versa.... 2015-07-09T19:28:24Z Ettore quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T19:28:48Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:29:51Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T19:29:57Z Ettore quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T19:30:03Z Rptx joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:30:17Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:30:57Z Ettore quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T19:31:15Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:33:43Z Ettore quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T19:34:01Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:35:42Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:36:07Z Ettore quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T19:36:24Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:37:04Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:41:35Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:42:35Z ziocroc quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-09T19:43:01Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:44:01Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:52:56Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T19:58:00Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T20:02:30Z cpopell3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-09T20:05:36Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:09:41Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-09T20:10:24Z cpopell3 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:15:14Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-09T20:16:35Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-09T20:18:00Z aeth: Afaik, the way Quicklisp works is that you (ql:quickload :foo) and foo loads all of its dependencies. If :bar depends on foo you would (ql:quickload :bar) and run (bar:baz) in the SLIME REPL. 2015-07-09T20:18:26Z aeth: But what if bar depends on foo in the sense that foo is an application (e.g. an emacs) and bar is a plugin to that application (e.g. a script that handles git or something)? 2015-07-09T20:19:07Z zematis joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:19:10Z Bike: that's all asdf, not quicklisp, really 2015-07-09T20:19:14Z aeth: Is there a way in ASDF and/or Quicklisp to express this type of relationship or would the program have to manually load in the .lisp files? 2015-07-09T20:19:26Z Bike: i think the stumpwm people were doing something there 2015-07-09T20:19:52Z Bike: but i think it'll take some... arrangements... it's not built into asdf but asdf is pretty extendable 2015-07-09T20:20:51Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:22:04Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T20:22:44Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:25:31Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:30:04Z jangle quit (Quit: jangle) 2015-07-09T20:33:19Z PuercoPop: you can use before and after methods 2015-07-09T20:34:08Z PuercoPop: I use them to load wookie's plugin before loading my system, see: http://wookie.lyonbros.com/faq 2015-07-09T20:36:00Z tyrannozarus_001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-09T20:36:24Z pjb: aeth: you would have to subclass various classes of asdf to express it. 2015-07-09T20:37:40Z flash- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T20:37:52Z contrapunctus quit (Quit: "Winken, blinken, nod.") 2015-07-09T20:37:55Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T20:38:51Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:39:14Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-09T20:40:21Z Shinmera: Argh, looks like I need to bundle even more garbage with a .app to make it work since Qt needs additional libraries to link against that aren't on a standard OS X system. 2015-07-09T20:41:12Z aeth: pjb: hmm, so this is a needed library, then? OK. 2015-07-09T20:41:47Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:41:48Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T20:41:49Z nyef: Shinmera: You're starting to get me seriously thinking about repaving my next OSX box with Linux as soon as I get it. /-: 2015-07-09T20:42:01Z trasto joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:42:27Z Shinmera: nyef: Things are "aight" as a dev if you get ports working and muck about with all the keyboard garbage to get it to work how it does everywhere else 2015-07-09T20:42:27Z aeth: What's interesting is that an emacs in Common Lisp would probably be scripted in a very different way than GNU Emacs because of CLOS afaik. 2015-07-09T20:42:47Z Shinmera: nyef: But, well, for deploying applications, a lot of stuff still has to be done. 2015-07-09T20:43:13Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T20:43:21Z aeth: nyef: The problem looks like a problem with Qt not a problem with Lisp itself. So afaik the actual problem is that Lisp currently depends on too much C and C++. 2015-07-09T20:43:24Z Shinmera: For most developers it gets automatically taken care of by Xcode and similar, I assume. Since we're not in that boat, someone has to do that grunt work. 2015-07-09T20:44:33Z cpopell4 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:45:26Z nyef: Heh. Keyboard. "What's the Meta key in this VM again? It's either Option or Command..." 2015-07-09T20:45:31Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:45:53Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:46:42Z |3b|: esc :p 2015-07-09T20:46:43Z cpopell3 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T20:47:27Z sdemarre1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-09T20:48:50Z aeth: The META key is the one just to the left of CTRL and to the right of SUPER and HYPER. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg 2015-07-09T20:49:54Z aeth: Also, apparently curly braces are so evil that they must be put far away in a non-standard spot and the normal {} keys should be () 2015-07-09T20:50:40Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:50:41Z nyef: |3b|: Well, I'm more looking for things like the M-tab window switcher thing. 2015-07-09T20:50:57Z pjb: aeth: try Hemlock. 2015-07-09T20:51:36Z dlowe: Heh. That keyboard predates curly brace standardization 2015-07-09T20:52:20Z aeth: dlowe: sort of like how the Star Wars prequels predate the empire. :-P 2015-07-09T20:53:00Z aeth: I just want to know how people in the 1990s decided to standardize behind C++ (or Java) and XML. 2015-07-09T20:54:09Z dlowe: C++ seemed neat at the time, and XML was a huge improvement in the business world over the zillions of custom formats that came before 2015-07-09T20:54:16Z dlowe: anyway, off topic. 2015-07-09T20:54:27Z dlowe: bringing it around to lisp, actually 2015-07-09T20:54:36Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T20:54:54Z pjb: aeth: Sun put a lot of money on Java and XML. 2015-07-09T20:54:56Z aeth: I guess historical Lisp is off-topic, but I was just wondering why something with syntax like Lisp lost out. Maybe bad editors or something (no paredit?) 2015-07-09T20:55:07Z dlowe: decent lisp compilers were hard to come by in the early nineties 2015-07-09T20:55:10Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-09T20:55:17Z pjb: aeth: then Sun went broke, and Oracle bought them, and Oracle puts a lot of money on Java and XML. 2015-07-09T20:55:19Z aeth: Because s-expressions seem roughly equivalent to XML, but a lot less verbose and a lot more powerful. 2015-07-09T20:55:28Z dlowe: but yeah, Java had a huge amount of cash pushing it 2015-07-09T20:55:44Z dlowe: XML has a lot more than people give it credit for 2015-07-09T20:55:53Z dlowe: Not all of it is on the side of Good 2015-07-09T20:55:56Z pjb: aeth: so you know what you need to do: start a company, become the #1 selling some kind of hardware, be worth trillions, spend those trillions on promoting lisp and sexps. 2015-07-09T20:56:01Z dlowe: but it's not just fancy s-exprs 2015-07-09T20:56:02Z aeth: You can even store (quoted) code in your .sexp data format because code's just a list. Maybe s-expressions are too powerful. 90s viruses could've been terrible with Lisp. 2015-07-09T20:56:31Z lieven quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T20:58:21Z pjb: Happily, we're not in the 90s anymore, 10s viruses wouldn't know what to do with lisp 2015-07-09T20:59:19Z nyef: Are we going to have another "Roaring '20s"? 2015-07-09T21:00:37Z Shinmera is beyond glad he bothered to make his library copying and fix-up system flexible enough to make it trivial to include some further dependencies. 2015-07-09T21:02:30Z aeth: XML has schemas but afaik s-expressions could also have schemas. 2015-07-09T21:02:53Z aeth: I think the reason people hate XML is the terrible syntax that seemingly has multiple ways to do the same thing. 2015-07-09T21:02:58Z aeth: (Also the verbosity.) 2015-07-09T21:04:11Z aeth: dlowe: Technically speaking, though, I think everything on a computer can be expressed as fancy s-expressions afaik, although some things map more easily than others. 2015-07-09T21:05:35Z aeth: pjb: but if Lisp ever took off 20s viruses would probably be quite effective against Lisp because people right now are relying on security by obscurity afaik 2015-07-09T21:05:45Z nyef: aeth: Everything on a computer can be expressed as a sequence of ones and zeros. A sequence of ones and zeros can be expressed as an s-expression. QED. 2015-07-09T21:06:28Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T21:06:48Z aeth: nyef: exactly. #b101010 2015-07-09T21:06:57Z aeth: Lisp is very expressive. 2015-07-09T21:07:11Z nyef: ... 74? 2015-07-09T21:07:32Z nyef: Oh. No, 42. 2015-07-09T21:07:33Z aeth: 42 2015-07-09T21:07:42Z aeth: This is the internet, everything has to be a nerdy reference. 2015-07-09T21:07:58Z aeth: It is sad that I actually know 101010 is 42. 2015-07-09T21:08:48Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T21:09:44Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-09T21:11:17Z magical-imouto quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-09T21:12:41Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:13:22Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:13:48Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T21:14:25Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-09T21:14:43Z mlrutherford: Has anyone here tried Shen now that it is BSD-licensed? 2015-07-09T21:16:04Z aeth: oh wow its website actually uses <marquee> 2015-07-09T21:16:05Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:17:03Z hrr4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T21:17:10Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T21:18:16Z cyphase quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-07-09T21:18:26Z flash- joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:19:59Z loz1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-09T21:23:57Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-09T21:24:24Z trasto quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T21:28:08Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:30:22Z Shinmera: Ok, I think I got an APP that actually runs properly (it does in my Yosemite VM). If anyone with OS X system would like to give it a shot, here you go: https://github.com/Shinmera/halftone/releases/tag/1.1.0 2015-07-09T21:30:27Z learnit joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:30:34Z Shinmera: *with an OS X system 2015-07-09T21:30:45Z ceryo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-09T21:31:26Z akkad: Shinmera: ok 2015-07-09T21:31:38Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:32:49Z nyef: Shinmera: Downloading to a 10.7.5 Lion machine now. 2015-07-09T21:33:07Z Shinmera: nyef: Let me know how much it crashes and burns 2015-07-09T21:33:09Z nyef: (Because screw upgrading.) 2015-07-09T21:33:11Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:33:14Z nyef: Will do. 2015-07-09T21:33:37Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:33:50Z Shinmera: (might have to launch from a terminal under Halftone.app/Contents/Application/halftone to get some debug output) 2015-07-09T21:34:23Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-09T21:34:35Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:35:11Z Shinmera: Most likely the ld paths refer to a version specific library in the system or something that'll cause it to fail to load them. 2015-07-09T21:37:01Z yrk left #lisp 2015-07-09T21:37:58Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-09T21:38:19Z nyef: Yeah, launching the app silently does nothing. 2015-07-09T21:38:41Z nyef: Running from the terminal, there's a CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR. 2015-07-09T21:38:51Z Shinmera: Yeah, so it can't find a dependant lib 2015-07-09T21:39:10Z nyef: Something about a missing symbol ___sincos_stret. 2015-07-09T21:39:20Z Shinmera: Oh. Well that's not what I expected then. 2015-07-09T21:39:35Z Shinmera: What does `otool -L Halftone.app/Contents/Application/QtCore.dylib` report? 2015-07-09T21:39:56Z tyrannozarus_001 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:39:58Z nyef: Referenced from QTCore.dylib, expected in /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib. 2015-07-09T21:40:05Z nyef: otool? Hrm... 2015-07-09T21:40:24Z Shinmera: Should be a system provided thing. It's the ldd of os x 2015-07-09T21:41:48Z tmtwd_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:41:48Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T21:41:58Z nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151250 2015-07-09T21:41:58Z tmtwd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T21:42:49Z Shinmera: Do the absolute paths all exist? 2015-07-09T21:44:47Z nyef: Annotated with the actual error I got. 2015-07-09T21:45:28Z Shinmera: Yeah looks like the library isn't backwards compatible that far. 2015-07-09T21:46:35Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:46:41Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:46:43Z nyef: The absolute paths all exist. I can't comment as to the @loader_path one or the QtCore.dylib. 2015-07-09T21:46:51Z Shinmera: That's fine 2015-07-09T21:47:13Z Shinmera: The first one is just the file name itself. And @loader_path means relative to the library file's location 2015-07-09T21:47:36Z ``Erik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-09T21:47:38Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T21:47:46Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:47:52Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2015-07-09T21:47:55Z Shinmera: Ok, so yes. Looks like it's compiled using symbols of the newer library that don't exist on yours. There's two potential solutions to this: a) upgrade your OS b) compile the libraries yourself 2015-07-09T21:48:30Z hocwp quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T21:48:31Z Shinmera: b) I don't want you to go through with yet since qt-libs hasn't been rolled out yet (but QL should update soon) 2015-07-09T21:48:50Z nyef: Or I could just wait until I have access to my Yosemite box. 2015-07-09T21:48:57Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-09T21:49:01Z nyef: (Which is sitting at the office.) 2015-07-09T21:49:10Z Shinmera: Well I meant if you wanted to see if it's possible to get running on this one. 2015-07-09T21:49:24Z Shinmera: It might be interesting for me to see if a lib compiled for an older system would be forwards compatible. 2015-07-09T21:49:29Z nyef: Ah, no. This one I don't particularly care about. 2015-07-09T21:49:39Z Shinmera: Alright, fair enough. 2015-07-09T21:50:03Z nyef: It's actually somewhat messed up and long overdue for a repave, but I don't have the time spare to repave it and set everything that I need back up on it. 2015-07-09T21:50:28Z Shinmera: Yeah, upgrading always takes more time than one wants it to. 2015-07-09T21:50:40Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T21:52:31Z flash- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T21:54:53Z Shinmera: Anyway, thanks for trying! Too bad compatibility is still a problem everywhere. 2015-07-09T21:56:19Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-09T21:57:18Z dim: at least there's something common everywhere 2015-07-09T21:59:40Z Shinmera: :/ 2015-07-09T22:01:41Z qxc joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:04:58Z Shinmera can't wait to hear that his dlls for Windows don't work on Win8+ 2015-07-09T22:05:17Z Shinmera: (they already don't work on XP, but at least that's EOL so I can ignore it) 2015-07-09T22:07:28Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-09T22:07:39Z synergy_: Why is defparameter called defparameter? 2015-07-09T22:07:40Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T22:07:53Z nyef: synergy_: Hysterical raisins. 2015-07-09T22:07:56Z Shinmera: Beacuase 2015-07-09T22:12:51Z tmtwd_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T22:13:18Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:14:06Z gabriel_laddel: Has anyone here had any luck communicating with serial devices on linux using SBCL? I realize this is a bit of shot in the dark. 2015-07-09T22:14:21Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-09T22:14:30Z vrrm joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:14:52Z zematis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T22:15:24Z pjb: synergy_: because defvar was already used. 2015-07-09T22:15:36Z gabriel_laddel: Currently I've tried cl-serial, but trying to `write-byte' fails with "Control strack exausted (no more space for function call frames)..." and I've really not the time to debug it when there are 4 other offerings (https://github.com/tuscland/lw-serial-port https://github.com/ryepup/arduino-experiments https://github.com/redline6561/trivial-raw-io 2015-07-09T22:15:36Z gabriel_laddel: http://repo.or.cz/w/cl-v4l2.git https://github.com/shamazmazum/cl-serial 2015-07-09T22:15:36Z gabriel_laddel: ) 2015-07-09T22:15:41Z nyef: gabriel_laddel: Yes, though I've been using an external program to change the comm port parameters. 2015-07-09T22:15:41Z pjb: synergy_: of course, defparameter should be used for program variables, while defvar should be used for program parameters. 2015-07-09T22:15:48Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-09T22:16:16Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: you mean you've been going through C? 2015-07-09T22:16:43Z nyef: I've been opening the port with minicom first, quitting minicom, then using my lisp program. 2015-07-09T22:17:02Z gabriel_laddel googles minicom, having not heard of it 2015-07-09T22:17:19Z nyef: It's a terminal program. You can "get away" with using stty, though. 2015-07-09T22:17:47Z gabriel_laddel: "stty - change and print terminal line settings" 2015-07-09T22:17:49Z gabriel_laddel: ... 2015-07-09T22:17:54Z gabriel_laddel: yay linux 2015-07-09T22:18:22Z gabriel_laddel: So, I've actually got some example code for this particular device, but they use a .NET serial port object 2015-07-09T22:18:51Z gabriel_laddel: so I've got the baud rate, parity, data, stop bits etc. 2015-07-09T22:18:52Z nyef: After that, use WITH-OPEN-FILE on the serial port device. (-: 2015-07-09T22:18:59Z gabriel_laddel: O? 2015-07-09T22:19:02Z gabriel_laddel: oh wow 2015-07-09T22:19:04Z gabriel_laddel: that is cool 2015-07-09T22:19:13Z anon_random joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:19:13Z nyef: Yeah. 2015-07-09T22:19:30Z nyef: At some point I'm hoping to sit down and come up with a better method. 2015-07-09T22:19:33Z anon_random: Would you guys say that Lisp is an immortal language, by virtue of being the most adaptable one, being able to assimilate features from other languages into itself? 2015-07-09T22:19:41Z gabriel_laddel: no, lisp sucks 2015-07-09T22:19:52Z nyef: Oh, how cute. It's another troll! 2015-07-09T22:20:03Z akkad: he's come to the right place 2015-07-09T22:20:13Z gabriel_laddel: anon_random: there *are* lots of blog posts on this btw 2015-07-09T22:20:24Z gabriel_laddel: e.g., PG, stanislav (loper-os) etc. 2015-07-09T22:20:25Z nyef: Pull the string, see if he'll say something else? 2015-07-09T22:20:33Z gabriel_laddel: steve yegge 2015-07-09T22:20:49Z anon_random: gabriel_laddel: any links? 2015-07-09T22:20:59Z gabriel_laddel: anon_random: GOOGLE 2015-07-09T22:21:05Z anon_random: nyef: I'm not a troll, troll. 2015-07-09T22:21:16Z anon_random: gabriel_laddel: That doesn't work. I need LINKS. 2015-07-09T22:21:17Z gabriel_laddel: google "steve yegge drunken blog rants, lisp wins, I think " 2015-07-09T22:21:17Z nyef: Aww... See? Cute! 2015-07-09T22:21:18Z gabriel_laddel: try that 2015-07-09T22:21:31Z anon_random: gabriel_laddel: Alright 2015-07-09T22:21:45Z anon_random: nyef: No, you're not cute, troll. 2015-07-09T22:22:10Z gabriel_laddel: the lisp community is toxic 2015-07-09T22:22:18Z gabriel_laddel: anon_random: get fucked, loser 2015-07-09T22:22:40Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-09T22:23:00Z nyef: gabriel_laddel: Anyway, at some point I'm hoping to sort out doing the termios stuff from the Lisp side, but it's pretty far down my list at the moment. 2015-07-09T22:23:14Z anon_random: gabriel_laddel: Fuck off, beta cuckold. Go breastfeed your son, fat ass neckbeard. 2015-07-09T22:23:22Z gabriel_laddel: :0 2015-07-09T22:23:32Z mlrutherford: oo, fancy talk 2015-07-09T22:23:48Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: that would be awesome. Your help over the past few days has been a great boon btw. 2015-07-09T22:24:06Z gabriel_laddel: you're essentially ensuring CL + McCLIM get deployed in a new company 2015-07-09T22:24:17Z gabriel_laddel: *ensured 2015-07-09T22:25:20Z nyef: mlrutherford: What'd I say? Absolutely adorable behavior! (-: 2015-07-09T22:25:47Z nyef: gabriel_laddel: Cool. Except for the McCLIM bit, but I can't have everything at this early stage of the game. (-: 2015-07-09T22:26:13Z anon_random: nyef: Kiss lisp, b1tch. 2015-07-09T22:26:31Z gabriel_laddel: is there a ban function in this channel? 2015-07-09T22:26:35Z mlrutherford: nyef, mainly referring to anon_random :P 2015-07-09T22:26:53Z pjb: gabriel_laddel: yes, but it only applies to me :-) 2015-07-09T22:27:08Z nyef: mlrutherford: Well, yes. Do you remember the old troll dolls from about 20-30 years ago? 2015-07-09T22:27:22Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:27:36Z pjb: https://www.google.fr/search?q=troll+doll&newwindow=1&safe=off&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=TPWeVeLpPIr9UrOXuLgL&ved=0CCEQsAQ&biw=1029&bih=707 2015-07-09T22:27:39Z pjb: adorable 2015-07-09T22:27:41Z mlrutherford: nyef, ah yes. The oh-so-collectable ones? 2015-07-09T22:28:01Z nyef: Yeah, THOSE troll dolls. 2015-07-09T22:28:07Z anon_random: mlrutherford: This is the Lisp community, b1tch. If you can't handle the heat, gtfo of the kitchen! 2015-07-09T22:28:44Z mlrutherford: anon_random, shouldn't you be doing homework? :P 2015-07-09T22:28:47Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-09T22:28:49Z pjb: gabriel_laddel: just use /ignore as we've all done five minutes ago already. 2015-07-09T22:28:50Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-09T22:29:06Z gabriel_laddel: oh, duh 2015-07-09T22:29:08Z gabriel_laddel: thanks 2015-07-09T22:29:27Z mlrutherford: didnt know that command existed, thanks :D 2015-07-09T22:29:49Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-09T22:29:56Z anon_random: mlrutherford: Dumb beta square. 2015-07-09T22:30:29Z zematis joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:31:17Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T22:32:07Z nyef: gabriel_laddel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151251 is my notes on using stty and how to possibly do the equivalent from SBCL. 2015-07-09T22:32:12Z Carisius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T22:33:54Z trasto joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:34:44Z cosmicexplorer joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:36:52Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: do you know what "Bits" (from "Bps/Par/Bits") & "lockfile location" refer to in the mincom config (mincom -s) 2015-07-09T22:37:36Z nyef: No, but you don't need a config file. 2015-07-09T22:37:42Z dkcl quit (Quit: Back in a bit.) 2015-07-09T22:37:44Z gabriel_laddel: sorry? 2015-07-09T22:37:49Z gabriel_laddel: a config file? 2015-07-09T22:38:03Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:38:04Z nyef: Oh. 2015-07-09T22:38:10Z nyef: That fires up the config window? 2015-07-09T22:38:29Z gabriel_laddel: yeah 2015-07-09T22:38:51Z nyef: I have no idea about the lockfile, but that Bps/Par/Bits thing is what you want to mess with. 2015-07-09T22:39:17Z gabriel_laddel: Hrm, I think that "data bits" in the spec I'm looking at refers to the -8 flag 2015-07-09T22:39:19Z nyef: Bits would be the number of data and stop bits. 2015-07-09T22:39:33Z gabriel_laddel: well, those are two different things though 2015-07-09T22:39:38Z gabriel_laddel: I have one stop bit, 8 data bits 2015-07-09T22:39:45Z nyef: What about parity? 2015-07-09T22:39:51Z gabriel_laddel: nope 2015-07-09T22:39:52Z nyef: 8N1 is fairly typical. 2015-07-09T22:39:57Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:40:05Z gabriel_laddel: It says "none" for parity, is listed. 2015-07-09T22:40:13Z nyef: That'd be it. 2015-07-09T22:40:34Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:42:52Z anon_random quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-09T22:43:00Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:47:36Z pyon quit (Quit: I have irrefutable proof that D < 0. It follows trivially from 2D > 3D, which is obviously true.) 2015-07-09T22:47:53Z gabriel_laddel: !@ 2015-07-09T22:47:55Z gabriel_laddel: ! 2015-07-09T22:47:56Z gabriel_laddel: that worked 2015-07-09T22:48:01Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: thank you 2015-07-09T22:48:41Z tmtwd_ joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:49:18Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-09T22:50:28Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T22:50:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T22:51:26Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-07-09T22:53:01Z cheryllium: I am looking for recommendations on what library to use for a simple authentication server. Does anyone have suggestions? 2015-07-09T22:53:25Z |3b|: is this a cffi bug? http://paste.lisp.org/+38PG 2015-07-09T22:54:28Z attila_lendvai: cheryllium: ironclad may help with the actual crypto algos 2015-07-09T22:59:13Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T23:00:14Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: what :external-format are you using? The device I'm speaking with responds with the failure code on all data I'm sending it (this is great news though). 2015-07-09T23:02:04Z gabriel_laddel: I got it! 2015-07-09T23:02:06Z gabriel_laddel: w00t 2015-07-09T23:02:21Z nyef: gabriel_laddel: Congratulations. 2015-07-09T23:02:47Z nyef: gabriel_laddel: And now that you have it working, you can use stty to boil down the comm settings to a single command line. 2015-07-09T23:04:20Z badkins_ quit 2015-07-09T23:06:20Z pjb: line settings could be passed as :external-format. You could write a CDR to specify it, and implement it on a couple of implementations. 2015-07-09T23:07:01Z gabriel_laddel: pjb: "line settings"? 2015-07-09T23:07:20Z pjb: stty stuff. 2015-07-09T23:07:31Z pjb: parity, bits, stop bits etc. 2015-07-09T23:08:28Z fe[nl]ix: |3b|: yes, it's a bug 2015-07-09T23:08:49Z |3b|: ok, will file an issue for it in a bit 2015-07-09T23:09:14Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-09T23:09:15Z gabriel_laddel: pjb: is there some sort of hidden book of unixisms I've not read? How would one have an inkling that you'd be able to do that? 2015-07-09T23:11:05Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-09T23:11:14Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T23:14:52Z Xach: gabriel_laddel: there is more than one 2015-07-09T23:15:18Z Xach: gabriel_laddel: i can recommend Linux Application Development and Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment 2015-07-09T23:16:06Z gabriel_laddel: Xach: Thanks. 2015-07-09T23:17:13Z not_tfl quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-09T23:20:40Z aeth: Is :type used often in DEFCLASS? The only place I've seen it mentioned is in the hyperspec itself, not in various other CLOS-related stuff I've read. When I grep a bunch of Lisp programs, type seems to be used in defstruct more often. 2015-07-09T23:23:39Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-09T23:24:00Z mfranzwa quit (Quit: mfranzwa) 2015-07-09T23:25:13Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-09T23:25:27Z gabriel_laddel: aeth: I saw it used today in cl-serial 2015-07-09T23:27:47Z n1x joined #lisp 2015-07-09T23:30:02Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T23:30:27Z PuercoPop: aeth: afaik how it is used it implementation specific and most implementations don't use it all. The library quid-pro-quo does though 2015-07-09T23:31:07Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-09T23:31:19Z PuercoPop: (only for assertion purposes) 2015-07-09T23:32:46Z prphp quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-09T23:34:36Z aeth: ah, interesting, it doesn't do what I thought it would do 2015-07-09T23:35:17Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-09T23:35:33Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-09T23:37:20Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T23:37:35Z aeth: (defclass test () ((foo :initarg :foo :type integer))) (make-instance 'test :foo "blah") ; no error 2015-07-09T23:37:46Z aeth: Also no error with (slot-value (make-instance 'test :foo "blah") 'foo) 2015-07-09T23:37:49Z aeth: Using sbcl 2015-07-09T23:37:52Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-09T23:38:05Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2015-07-09T23:38:32Z trasto quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-07-09T23:40:28Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-09T23:41:07Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-09T23:41:14Z aeth: Apparently "undefined" means "nothing happens" 2015-07-09T23:42:11Z nyef: aeth: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/485718 2015-07-09T23:43:38Z aeth: yes, it does make sense that it could be used as an optimization 2015-07-09T23:44:01Z aeth: although I guess there might be some complexity given the type of, uh, types you could put there 2015-07-09T23:45:20Z brpocock: Just a (check-type …) in the (setf …) function, no? 2015-07-09T23:45:52Z nyef: There's also a matter of redefinition or inheritance providing a wider type. 2015-07-09T23:46:00Z tyrannozarus_001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-09T23:46:28Z brpocock: looks like, per the patch, it does check if (safety 3) ? 2015-07-09T23:47:45Z aeth: I didn't know there was a check-type, there is probably some code I can rewrite to use that instead assuming it is faster to write it the proper way. 2015-07-09T23:48:53Z aeth: (let ((foo 1)) (check-type foo integer) (1+ foo)) 2015-07-09T23:49:18Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-09T23:49:48Z aeth: Replace 1 with "blah" and it will have an error, but it's a correctable one, unlike (1+ "blah") 2015-07-09T23:49:51Z aeth: So it's pretty cool 2015-07-09T23:50:15Z n1x quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-09T23:51:03Z 16WABGS0F joined #lisp 2015-07-09T23:51:03Z 92AABMI76 joined #lisp 2015-07-09T23:51:06Z aeth: Something like (integer 0 10) is *really* cool. 2015-07-09T23:51:36Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-09T23:52:06Z aeth: Do Lisp implementations like SBCL use the information that check-type gives or are additional optimization stuff needed? 2015-07-09T23:52:25Z brpocock: (defun 2+ (n) (declare (type number n)) (check-type n number) (+ 2 n)) ; eg, if you want to feel like a C programmer. type = (function (number) (values number &optional)) 2015-07-09T23:52:28Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-09T23:52:46Z nyef: I'm not quite sure how much brains SBCL has here, but it's probably the implementation most likely to make use of the information. 2015-07-09T23:53:03Z harish_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-09T23:53:10Z copycat quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-09T23:53:19Z aeth: brpocock: ok so use both declare and check-type if I want the compiler to know *and* the error to be recoverable? 2015-07-09T23:53:35Z pjb: brpocock: you've got. (check-type n number) is dead code, since YOU have promised to the compiler that n was ALWAYS bound to a number! 2015-07-09T23:53:36Z brpocock: it doesn't flow upwards to the type of the function — but — it will warn on bad code following 2015-07-09T23:54:11Z brpocock: (defun strcat (s) (check-type s number) (concatenate 'string s "foo")) ; compiler warning 2015-07-09T23:54:13Z pjb: brpocock: therefore (2+ "hello") will be nasal daemon. 2015-07-09T23:54:16Z aeth: pjb: so does that mean you'll get an earlier error that you can't supply a new value for? 2015-07-09T23:54:28Z pjb: aeth: it means you won't get an error. 2015-07-09T23:54:44Z pjb: type declarations is advanced stuff in CL. 2015-07-09T23:54:52Z brpocock: SBCL throws a TYPE-ERROR there 2015-07-09T23:55:04Z aeth: well in SBCL I get a type-error, as brpocock says 2015-07-09T23:55:05Z brpocock: (2+ "moo") ⇒ type-error 2015-07-09T23:55:07Z pjb: brpocock: you need to write: (defun 2+ (n) (check-type n number) (locally (declare (type number n)) (+ 2 n))) 2015-07-09T23:55:08Z aeth: So I can't supply a new value 2015-07-09T23:55:23Z pjb: brpocock: type-error are within nasal daemons. 2015-07-09T23:55:44Z pjb: brpocock: another implementation could have sent an ICBM on you. 2015-07-09T23:56:34Z pjb: brpocock: but of course, any implementation that would use the type declaration in 2+ would have infered it automatically in the first place, so it's totally useless. 2015-07-09T23:56:34Z brpocock: I don't usually bother to (declare (type…)) at all, but (check-type) doesn't alter the declared type of the function. but +1 pjb if that's undefined. 2015-07-09T23:56:59Z brpocock: One might hope that + would be well-defined :-) 2015-07-09T23:57:17Z aeth: pjb: would your rewrite to put DECLARE in LOCALLY probably slow down the code? 2015-07-09T23:57:43Z aeth: also wow Lisp is so much harder than something like Python because there's more than one implementation to worry about. :-p 2015-07-09T23:58:04Z brpocock: If you're deeply worried the speed, you can always optimize for speed over safety and recompile 2015-07-09T23:58:18Z pjb: aeth: of course, you'd rather want fast code producing nasal daemons and making rockets explode… 2015-07-09T23:58:24Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-09T23:58:52Z brpocock going to make rockets not explode … ciao 2015-07-09T23:58:56Z tmtwd_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-09T23:59:26Z brpocock quit (Quit: brpocock) 2015-07-09T23:59:39Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-09T23:59:40Z aeth: pjb: well technically rockets will probably use Ada and explode anyway 2015-07-09T23:59:40Z pjb: aeth: while in python, you don't have to bother with python 2.7 3.0 3.3 pypy cpython cl-python brython hotpy ironpython jython pymite pyvm rapydscript snappy tinypy amongst others. 2015-07-09T23:59:57Z pjb: Could you try to stop saying idiocies? 2015-07-10T00:00:25Z aeth: pjb: python and ruby don't have specs afaik, so the other implementations are supposed to be bug-for-bug compatable with the main implementation, in Python's case just regular "python" not e.g. pypy 2015-07-10T00:00:30Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:00:31Z copycat left #lisp 2015-07-10T00:00:37Z pjb: aeth: stop saying bullshit! 2015-07-10T00:00:41Z aeth: Python was a bad example because of the 2-vs-3, so perhaps I should've said Ruby (although I haven't coded much in Ruby) 2015-07-10T00:00:44Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-10T00:00:45Z pjb: ruby is STANDARDIZED! It has several implementations too! 2015-07-10T00:00:51Z aeth: ah, interesting 2015-07-10T00:00:56Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:00:58Z aeth: god damn it Hacker News misleads sometimes I guess 2015-07-10T00:01:23Z pjb: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3868970 2015-07-10T00:01:29Z pjb: aeth: again stop it! 2015-07-10T00:02:42Z pjb: I mean, you don't even have the excuse that it'd appear on the second page of google results! 2015-07-10T00:02:58Z pjb: Anything that's on the first page of google results should be considered common knowledge. 2015-07-10T00:03:25Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-10T00:03:27Z n1x joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:03:41Z aeth: pjb: I guess what I read years ago and misunderstood is that the standard for Ruby is irrelevant because there's one hugely popular implementation and then less popular implementations, so there's a de facto standard in following the main implementation. 2015-07-10T00:03:52Z pjb: Far from it. 2015-07-10T00:04:02Z Rav3n joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:04:23Z aeth: I could've sworn I read something about this about 2-3 years ago, but it's not worth defending further, especially because this is #lisp not #ruby 2015-07-10T00:04:32Z pjb: Any experienced ruby programmers (and ruby on rails) will tell you they have to deal with several ruby implementations. And even to use some specific implementation with some specific patch, to extract the performance they need on their servers… 2015-07-10T00:05:05Z aeth: pjb: There's your mistake. Assuming an experienced ruby programmer wrote what I am partially remembering. 2015-07-10T00:05:14Z aeth: I guess I read garbage and took it as fact. 2015-07-10T00:05:19Z pjb: Just like we do in CL, developping on the implementation that's best to develop on, and deploy on the one that's best for deployment. 2015-07-10T00:05:28Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:06:28Z pjb: Bah, soon we'll hook internet on our brains, and "we"'ll be smarter: http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150706/srep11869/full/srep11869.html 2015-07-10T00:07:08Z aeth: pjb: I guess the problem is, quite a few people seem very smart in some comments/blogs and have no idea what they're talking about, and so quite a bit of what I learned needs to be unlearned. Thanks, Internet. 2015-07-10T00:07:38Z pjb: Don't use web forums. Use google to get the original papers. 2015-07-10T00:07:40Z zematis quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-10T00:07:50Z aeth: but web forums are like the junk food of the Internet :-( 2015-07-10T00:08:11Z jasom: aeth: like python, you can write an application just for one implementation and be okay, but it is good citizenship to make sure your libraries work on multiple implementations 2015-07-10T00:09:15Z jasom: but it is still better to say "I've only run this on lispworks, but here's the code if anyone is interested" than to just keep it to yourself 2015-07-10T00:09:45Z aeth: There won't be problems if I put (check-type n number) (locally (declare (type number n)) (+ 2 n)) into a macro, will there? 2015-07-10T00:10:10Z pjb: With a progn around it'll be ok. 2015-07-10T00:10:15Z aeth: Also OMG there it is again. Two similar things with opposite orders. n and number are reversed. Just like nth and elt use opposite orders to do basically the same thing for lists and sequences respectively. 2015-07-10T00:10:32Z aeth: That is probably the most annoying thing about Common Lisp. 2015-07-10T00:11:58Z Rav3n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-10T00:12:03Z __009__kk: ˙/p 2015-07-10T00:12:07Z __009__kk left #lisp 2015-07-10T00:13:49Z aeth: Wait, so LOCALLY is basically just PROGN where DECLARE can work? 2015-07-10T00:14:05Z Rav3n joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:18:58Z pjb: yes 2015-07-10T00:19:17Z aeth: Common Lisp has all sorts of odd features. 2015-07-10T00:20:05Z 16WABGS0F is now known as quazimodo 2015-07-10T00:21:18Z aeth: I'm kind of impressed emacs can handle the auto-indentation for labels in TAGBODY, though. (Matches indentation in hyperspec, although it seems like most people who use tagbody on Github use incorrect indentation where the label lines up with lines of code instead of coming before in the indentation) 2015-07-10T00:23:12Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-10T00:24:19Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:24:22Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:24:24Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T00:25:17Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-10T00:25:50Z djinni` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T00:26:01Z scymtym_: aeth: SBCL can check slot types on write: sbcl --no-userinit --eval '(progn (proclaim (quote (optimize (safety 3)))) (defclass a () ((b :initarg :b :type integer))) (make-instance (quote a) :b "bla"))'. however, this should be treated as a debugging tool and your code must not rely on it since 1) users should be able to use arbitrary optimization settings 2) relying on it makes the code not portable 2015-07-10T00:26:12Z otjura: hmm.. in land of lisp make-array creates array of nils but my sbcl setup creates array with zeroes 2015-07-10T00:26:36Z Bike: otjura: it's undefined, use :initial-element if you need one particularly 2015-07-10T00:30:35Z jasom: scymtym_: on any safety other than 0, cmucl checks all type declarations; I think that is still true of sbcl too 2015-07-10T00:32:36Z scymtym_: jasom: this is for the :type slot options not type declarations in general. for the above example, only safety 3 makes it signal a type-error with my SBCL version. 2015-07-10T00:32:50Z jasom: ah 2015-07-10T00:33:17Z nyef: jasom: I believe I owe you an apology about that DX problem yesterday. 2015-07-10T00:33:32Z jasom: nyef: why? 2015-07-10T00:33:49Z jasom: did you introduce it? 2015-07-10T00:33:53Z nyef: Yeah. 2015-07-10T00:34:22Z ynchromeshs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T00:34:29Z ofosos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T00:34:40Z jasom: heh, no worries, maybe 30 minutes total in reproducing it (I walked up the stack, and saw the declaration and immediately thought that was the culprit, so I had a workaround in about 5 minutes) 2015-07-10T00:34:41Z nyef: stassats narrowed it down to the STACK analysis phase, after which point I found the thinko that I had made a few months (or more?) ago. 2015-07-10T00:34:55Z Xach: aeth: tagbody's structure is pretty simple. symbols are indented one way and lists indented another. 2015-07-10T00:35:01Z ofosos joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:35:06Z aeth: Interesting. do, do*, dolist, dotimes and some others have implicit tagbodies according to the hyperspec. So you can e.g. use go (i.e. go to) in dotimes. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_tagbod.htm 2015-07-10T00:35:12Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:35:27Z nyef: There's now a fun test case in the system as well, it DX-allocates a CONS, does a conditional loop, then DX-allocates another CONS and checks them for EQness. 2015-07-10T00:35:31Z synergy_: If I were to make an s-expression drawing of a defun statement, would the two branches be the parameter list and the function body? 2015-07-10T00:35:50Z nyef: If the loop gets taken, they are EQ because the stack got trashed. 2015-07-10T00:35:56Z jasom: aeth: this is useful because there isn't an equivalent to what c-like languages call "continue" in the looping forms 2015-07-10T00:35:58Z aeth: Xach: yes but prog doesn't seem to know this in emacs 2015-07-10T00:36:16Z aeth: prog is very similar to tagbody 2015-07-10T00:36:43Z aeth: I guess I found a bug in the indentation algorithm? 2015-07-10T00:37:12Z aeth: prog also is supposed to indent tags specially. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog_.htm 2015-07-10T00:37:18Z Xach: aeth: seems more likely that it's a bug in the configuration. 2015-07-10T00:37:49Z tmtwd_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:37:52Z aeth: At least for me, I can convert something from (tagbody ...) to (prog () ...) and it lines up the tags with the rest in the latter 2015-07-10T00:38:08Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:38:43Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-10T00:38:45Z aeth: jasom: Yes and apparently there's a (go out) idiom that doesn't look terrible, where you just end a tagbody (or implict tagbody) with "out" 2015-07-10T00:40:28Z aeth: https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=%22go+out%22+language%3A%22Common+Lisp%22&type=Code&ref=searchresults 2015-07-10T00:40:29Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T00:41:19Z aeth: I think the code that uses this is very, very ancient, though. 2015-07-10T00:41:34Z Bike: the sicl code there is probably just a test 2015-07-10T00:41:51Z Bike: one of the others is implementing a loop sort of macro, so of course it uses go, and another is a parser, and parsers are weird 2015-07-10T00:42:13Z aeth: here's a go out in 1980s code 2015-07-10T00:42:16Z aeth: https://github.com/filonenko-mikhail/embeddable-maxima/blob/afdfa3f0a7ec9e674e8cdcbb7452ca5aeb6b5236/src/miscellaneous/laplac.lisp#L570 2015-07-10T00:42:41Z jasom: aeth: that's not a whole lot better than a (block ... (return-from ...)) 2015-07-10T00:42:43Z aeth: it looks like it's a loop 2015-07-10T00:42:51Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T00:43:44Z keen__________16 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:45:21Z keen__________15 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-10T00:45:26Z defaultxr quit (Quit: defaultxr) 2015-07-10T00:50:10Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:52:55Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:53:27Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:53:35Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:54:16Z aeth: hmm, GO is probably very useful in compiling certain langauges to Common Lisp (COBOL?) 2015-07-10T00:56:41Z learnit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-10T00:56:44Z nyef: It's useful for state machines. 2015-07-10T00:57:26Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:57:27Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-10T00:57:39Z Bike: did not help at all with my brainfuck compiler, i'm afraid 2015-07-10T00:57:45Z n1x quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T00:57:53Z aeth: Why not? 2015-07-10T00:58:27Z Bike: cos i used closed loops instead 2015-07-10T00:58:28Z aeth: What went wrong? 2015-07-10T00:58:31Z aeth: ah 2015-07-10T00:59:12Z nyef: Every so often, and it's not very often, I run into a situation where a TAGBODY actually is the most natural control structure to suit the problem that I have. 2015-07-10T00:59:48Z nyef: Most recent was last night. The second most recent could easily have been last year... or earlier. 2015-07-10T00:59:50Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T00:59:52Z aeth: Interesting, I was mostly thinking about just for fun joke projects that could use it. 2015-07-10T01:00:15Z synergy_: What is the syntax for accepting plist keys as parameters and having an arbitrary number of them? 2015-07-10T01:00:26Z copycat left #lisp 2015-07-10T01:00:37Z synergy_: Such that each would not be explicitly named in the parameter list 2015-07-10T01:00:49Z Bike: synergy_: &rest and using getf in the body 2015-07-10T01:01:16Z nyef: Do you want to have a constraint that there be an even number of arguments? 2015-07-10T01:01:29Z nyef: You could try &rest whatever &key &allow-other-keys. 2015-07-10T01:02:33Z synergy_: So something like (defun foo (&rest &key) body)? 2015-07-10T01:03:16Z nyef: (defun foo (&rest args &key &allow-other-keys) ...) or just (defun foo (&rest args) ...), though note that you can pass an odd number of arguments to the latter version., 2015-07-10T01:04:17Z pjb: aeth: comefrom http://paste.lisp.org/+38PL 2015-07-10T01:04:50Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T01:05:22Z learnit joined #lisp 2015-07-10T01:05:43Z aeth: comefrom is great 2015-07-10T01:05:55Z Bike: only top level?? weak 2015-07-10T01:06:12Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-10T01:06:35Z synergy_: nyef: The function, it receives an arbitrary number of key arguments. 2015-07-10T01:07:20Z aeth: pjb: It's actually not that different from goto, though. You just need to reverse your brain's parsing of the goto, which isn't hard. The only confusion is when there's more than one comefrom for the same label. 2015-07-10T01:07:30Z synergy_: nyef: So I'm guessing I wouldn't need the args part that you added above 2015-07-10T01:07:50Z aeth: pjb: You just happened to use the most evil way to handle undefined behavior, calling random. 2015-07-10T01:08:03Z pjb: In my lisp library, I've got 32 occurences of tagbody, 17 of which are real tagbody forms. I've used it twice in my brainfuck implementation. 2015-07-10T01:09:00Z pjb: well once, the other is commented out. 2015-07-10T01:09:12Z pjb: I defined a %while-nz macro that uses it. 2015-07-10T01:09:24Z aeth: I think what would be more evil than comefrom in a language is a language that only does approximate arithmetic. So e.g. (+ 10 10) could be 20 or it could be 11 or it could be 99, anything with two digits since the real answer is two digits. 2015-07-10T01:09:27Z pjb: tagbodies are great for macros. 2015-07-10T01:10:17Z pjb: You could still do some computation in such a language… 2015-07-10T01:10:20Z aeth: (1+ x) of course will add anything from 0 to 9 2015-07-10T01:10:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-10T01:11:02Z aeth: Loops will be very fun that way. It will be increasing if you use 1+, but who knows by how much? 2015-07-10T01:12:42Z aeth: If you get unlucky, you'll wind up with an infinite loop, although that will be unlikely. 2015-07-10T01:13:44Z Bike: http://esolangs.org/ 2015-07-10T01:13:50Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T01:15:13Z n1x joined #lisp 2015-07-10T01:16:20Z aeth: In this language, based on how I just defined it, (1+ x) will be distinct from (+ 1 x) of course because (1+ x) will add any integer from 0 to 9 to x while (+ 1 x) will return something with the same number of base 10 digits as the real result. 2015-07-10T01:17:02Z aeth: If you're smart you can generate a bunch of results, get the max and min, and try to figure things out. 2015-07-10T01:17:45Z aeth: Bike: Except with Common Lisp you don't have to make a separate esolang because you can just extend the language itself to add useful features like this. 2015-07-10T01:19:33Z Bike: and with fortran's structured programming features, you can just add a "random-add" function. isn't it amazing how far programming has come 2015-07-10T01:20:39Z aeth: Writing random-add isn't redefining + (would that work?) 2015-07-10T01:20:46Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-10T01:21:00Z aeth: random_add(1, 2) in Python or something isn't going to look at all like 1 + 2. 2015-07-10T01:21:13Z synergy_: After reading the hyperspec page on it, I'm unclear on exactly what the &rest keyword does in an ordinary lambda list. What is it actually doing? 2015-07-10T01:21:34Z Bike: synergy_: takes the rest of the arguments and makes them available as a list in the function's code 2015-07-10T01:22:37Z synergy_: So if I have a list of specified parameters, suffixed with a rest paremeter, then I'll get a list of the rest of the arguments 2015-07-10T01:22:37Z Bike: aeth: let me try again: i am a lisp programmer, you do not need to advertise it to me, i just linked you a website with many ideas for programming systems like that and i don't know why you turned that into an advertisement for something i already use. 2015-07-10T01:23:07Z |3b|: (defun foo (a b &rest c) (list :a a :b b :c c)) (foo 1 2 3 4 5) => (:a 1 :b 2 :c (3 4 5)) 2015-07-10T01:23:08Z Bike: (defun foo (a b &rest c) (list a b c)), (foo 4 5 6 7 8) => (4 5 (6 7 8)) 2015-07-10T01:23:11Z Bike: lol 2015-07-10T01:24:18Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-10T01:24:46Z aeth: Bike: I guess I just thought it was cool that you can do something like pjb's comefrom in Lisp rather than making a new language that uses comefrom 2015-07-10T01:25:03Z aeth: Bike: Sorry if there was an error in my communication on my end 2015-07-10T01:25:11Z Bike: it is kind of neat, yes 2015-07-10T01:25:28Z Bike: it would be nice if it wasn't only top level, but i guess that's more like continuations 2015-07-10T01:25:36Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-10T01:25:37Z aeth: Basically, Lisp makes esoteric languages obsolete because most of their features can be incorporated into Lisp itself in some way. 2015-07-10T01:26:03Z aeth: Which is cool. 2015-07-10T01:26:12Z |3b|: 'obsolete' sounds like an odd adjective to use with most esolangs :p 2015-07-10T01:26:24Z |3b|: that sort of implies they were useful to start with :) 2015-07-10T01:26:40Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T01:26:49Z aeth: For languages that are really out there you could still import similar features inline like loop or in a string like format. 2015-07-10T01:26:50Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T01:26:56Z aeth: So that power is still there for Lisp 2015-07-10T01:27:33Z Bike: http://esolangs.org/wiki/TwoDucks well, good luck 2015-07-10T01:29:33Z innertracks1 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T01:31:11Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T01:31:31Z aeth: Assuming it literally requires time travel, there will probably be an sbcl-specific way to do it once the hardware gets there. Unfortunately, that still wouldn't be portable CL. 2015-07-10T01:31:40Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T01:31:54Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-10T01:34:24Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-10T01:37:04Z n1x quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T01:38:52Z n1x joined #lisp 2015-07-10T01:39:33Z synergy_: What would be a good way to traverse a list and test a predicate against all elements in the list? I'm trying to do it with dolist, but that doesn't seem to be a good option. 2015-07-10T01:39:59Z Bike: clhs every 2015-07-10T01:40:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 2015-07-10T01:40:01Z Bike: and friends 2015-07-10T01:40:36Z tmtwd_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T01:43:22Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T01:46:40Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T01:49:09Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-07-10T01:49:17Z Rptx` joined #lisp 2015-07-10T01:51:46Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-10T01:53:01Z Rptx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T01:53:02Z synergy_: Ok, thanks that's what I needed. 2015-07-10T01:53:21Z synergy_: Is there a dolist equivalent for plists that would only traverse the values? 2015-07-10T01:54:12Z Bike: (loop for (key value) on list by #'cddr do ...stuff...) 2015-07-10T01:55:10Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T01:56:12Z |3b|: alexandria:doplist 2015-07-10T01:57:07Z |3b|: (which needs the alexandria lib, but you probably have that if you use pretty much any other libs, and easy to get using quicklisp if not) 2015-07-10T01:57:19Z aeth: Interesting, this is implemented with tagbody and go. https://github.com/keithj/alexandria/blob/b1c6ee03c41e0db97989ae38e70da4d8263e09d1/lists.lisp#L76 2015-07-10T01:57:58Z Bike: kind of pointlessly, looks like 2015-07-10T01:58:13Z |3b|: yeah, DOLIST and similar are implicit TAGBODYs 2015-07-10T01:58:27Z Bike: oh, right that's why 2015-07-10T01:58:27Z aeth: The way I probably would have written it is as a DO that only works on every other entry in a list 2015-07-10T01:58:39Z |3b|: so if you want to implement a new DOWHATEVER, you might as well keep that 2015-07-10T01:59:26Z |3b|: (not that many people will care, or even notice) 2015-07-10T02:00:04Z aeth: |3b|: It's in ALEXANDRIA, it's almost like being in CL. People should care. 2015-07-10T02:00:24Z |3b|: care that DOWHATEVER bodies are implicit TAGBODYs? 2015-07-10T02:00:26Z aeth: If your way is better, why not try to submit a patch? However alexandria works 2015-07-10T02:00:41Z Bike: why are you reading this as a complaint 2015-07-10T02:00:49Z |3b| is saying alexandria uses TAGBODY in order to maintain a feature of DOLIST that nobody cares about 2015-07-10T02:00:54Z aeth: ah 2015-07-10T02:01:27Z |3b|: though thinking about it, it makes it easy to skip to the end of an iteration (or restart one) 2015-07-10T02:01:32Z |3b|: which could be useful 2015-07-10T02:01:51Z aeth: Go To Considered Useful? 2015-07-10T02:02:21Z |3b|: reasonably scoped goto isn't too bad 2015-07-10T02:02:39Z Bike: knuth's rationale for goto is irrelevant in CL, it's funny 2015-07-10T02:03:20Z |3b|: does goto destination even need to be in the same function in C? 2015-07-10T02:03:57Z Bike: pretty sure, yeah 2015-07-10T02:04:07Z Bike: for anything else you use, well, long jump 2015-07-10T02:05:20Z aeth: Does GO even need to be in the same function in CL? What if you wrap the top level in TAGBODY and DEFUN from there? Would that work? Would you be able to access all the defined functions from outside of the tagbody? 2015-07-10T02:06:00Z ramus joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:06:05Z Bike: tagbody tags are defined lexically and have dynamic extent 2015-07-10T02:06:16Z |3b|: you can close over a go tag, but it is still lexically scoped, and only works within the dynamic extent of the tagbody 2015-07-10T02:06:36Z Bike: so it's ok to do (tagbody foo (some-function (lambda () (go foo)))) 2015-07-10T02:08:15Z aeth: But if the program is in one file, then it's almost like global, right? You can even use PROG instead of TAGBODY to simulate global variables, right? Although I guess the problem is accessing those variables from something that uses that program as a library. 2015-07-10T02:08:44Z Bike: then they're only global lexically 2015-07-10T02:09:01Z Bike: so you couldn't, like, load a file and define a new function that jumps to something in it, or new labels 2015-07-10T02:09:33Z |3b|: use THROW/CATCH if you want arbitrary jumps (still dynamic extent though) 2015-07-10T02:09:40Z |3b|: or conditions 2015-07-10T02:10:23Z n1x quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T02:12:13Z n1x joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:15:57Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-10T02:18:16Z emaczen: I'm writing s-expressions to a variable defined in another package, and I see a lot of atoms in the s-expressions end up getting prefixed with their package names. As an example, even the atoms such as "for" of a (loop for ...) s-expression get prefixed with the package name where the code lives. For certain symbols I don't want the package name being prefixed -- how can I achieve this? 2015-07-10T02:19:31Z emaczen: I don't want to write a function that traverses through s-expressions and removes the package names, I want to stop the prefixing from happenning since that would be much simpler. 2015-07-10T02:19:45Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:21:23Z n1x quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T02:21:25Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:21:40Z |3b|: does returning booleans with cffi-libffi also not work? 2015-07-10T02:22:07Z |3b|: and not have a workaround, unlike struct typedefs 2015-07-10T02:23:13Z |3b|: though looks like that definition is broken in the first place, so maybe i don't care either way 2015-07-10T02:23:14Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:23:24Z n1x joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:24:16Z les quit (Quit: "") 2015-07-10T02:24:27Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:25:22Z |3b|: can someone remind me what void foo(some_struct_typedef arg[2]); means in c? is that just (arg (:pointer some-struct-typedef)) in cffi? 2015-07-10T02:25:27Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:25:40Z |3b|: or is it (arg some-struct-typedef :count 2) 2015-07-10T02:26:53Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T02:27:36Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:30:54Z theos: guten tag 2015-07-10T02:32:16Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:32:23Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-10T02:32:29Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:32:50Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T02:33:52Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:34:23Z jleija quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-10T02:34:40Z synergy_: How do I run a function passed as argument to another function without getting a function undefined error? 2015-07-10T02:34:41Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:35:04Z n1x quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-10T02:35:19Z synergy_: Something like (defun foo (predicate arg) (predicate arg)) 2015-07-10T02:35:22Z cosmicexplorer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-10T02:35:26Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T02:35:35Z synergy_: This gives me a function PREDICATE not defined error 2015-07-10T02:35:57Z |3b|: (defun foo (predicate arg) (funcall predicate arg)) (foo #'plusp 1) 2015-07-10T02:36:35Z synergy_: Ok, I'll check out funcall on the hyperspec 2015-07-10T02:36:41Z synergy_: clhs funcall 2015-07-10T02:36:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm 2015-07-10T02:36:53Z |3b|: CL has different rules for interpreting the first element of a list being evaluated than for the rest of it, which happens to not include looking up the values of variables 2015-07-10T02:37:06Z n1x joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:37:27Z |3b|: so (foo ...) means call a function named foo, but not call a function stored in a variable named foo 2015-07-10T02:37:36Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-10T02:37:54Z |3b|: funcall just calls the function specified by the first argument, passing the remaining arguments to it 2015-07-10T02:38:18Z nyef: APPLY will do the same, but "spread" the last argument (which must be a list) into further arguments. 2015-07-10T02:38:32Z |3b|: (scheme on the other hand does look up functions in variables in that situation) 2015-07-10T02:38:33Z synergy_: So then funcall is evaluated by evaluating whatever the argument (in this case predicate) to the actual function? 2015-07-10T02:38:44Z nyef: Yes. 2015-07-10T02:40:01Z |3b|: note that FUNCALL is a normal function, so its arguments are evaluated as any other 2015-07-10T02:40:31Z synergy_: I'm still getting used to lisp; what makes a function different from a variable? 2015-07-10T02:40:31Z |3b|: in that case, it looks at the variable PREDICATE to get the function object to call 2015-07-10T02:40:37Z n1x quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-10T02:40:57Z |3b|: you call functions, you store things (possibly including functions) in variables 2015-07-10T02:41:37Z |3b|: the distinction in that example is that there are separate namespaces for the /names/ of functions and variables 2015-07-10T02:42:23Z synergy_: Ok 2015-07-10T02:42:24Z |3b|: so to evaluate (foo bar), it looks up FOO in the function namespace, and looks up BAR in the variable namespace, then calls the result of the former with the result of the latter as an argument 2015-07-10T02:42:43Z |3b|: that lets you name variables LIST without any conflicts 2015-07-10T02:43:02Z |3b|: (let ((list '(1 2 3))) (list list)) => ((1 2 3)) 2015-07-10T02:43:14Z synergy_: Alright, that's what I needed to know. The two share different namespaces. That's pretty interesting 2015-07-10T02:43:40Z |3b|: sort of the opposite of 'share' :) 2015-07-10T02:44:39Z synergy_: Well I mean, function names share a namespace and variables share another one inclusive to themselves 2015-07-10T02:45:02Z synergy_: Thanks for the help 2015-07-10T02:45:03Z otjura: multiple namespaces are more common than mashing all in one 2015-07-10T02:45:03Z |3b|: yeah, that sounds more reasonable 2015-07-10T02:45:53Z |3b|: both strategies are pretty common 2015-07-10T02:47:12Z |3b| will assume those args are pointers for now, at least it compiles :/ 2015-07-10T02:49:07Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:50:01Z ynchromeshs joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:50:48Z |3b|: ah, still have some functions that take single structs... guess i'll translate the booleans by hand 2015-07-10T02:50:50Z otjura: like in java you can define int foo and method foo in same scope 2015-07-10T02:51:11Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T02:52:07Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-10T02:53:21Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T02:56:36Z DalekBaldwin joined #lisp 2015-07-10T03:04:42Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-07-10T03:16:41Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-10T03:19:30Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-10T03:19:52Z synergy_: How does the syntax for traversing a list like this work: (loop for (key value) on list by #'cddr do ...stuff...)? This is from an earlier comment from Bike 2015-07-10T03:20:10Z Bike: clhs loop 2015-07-10T03:20:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 2015-07-10T03:20:15Z Bike: it's a complex sublanguage 2015-07-10T03:21:29Z synergy_: I read through the hyperspec, but I'm not very clear on what's going on in this example 2015-07-10T03:22:25Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-10T03:23:47Z synergy_: I'm trying to figure out what the step-fun is/does on this line: for-as-on-list::= var [type-spec] on form1 [by step-fun] 2015-07-10T03:23:59Z synergy_: And how does for in differ from for on? 2015-07-10T03:24:14Z Bike: it's a bit complicated, but let me try to explain 2015-07-10T03:24:27Z Bike: (loop for var on list ...) binds var to list, then to (cdr list), then (cdr (cdr list)), etc 2015-07-10T03:24:46Z Bike: "by #'cddr" changes the function, so first var is bound to list, then to (cddr list), then (cddr (cddr list)), etc 2015-07-10T03:25:05Z Bike: then the other tricky bit is i'm not just using var as a symbol, i have it as a list, so it "destructures" 2015-07-10T03:25:32Z Bike: (loop for (a b) on list ...) binds a to (first list) and b to (second list), then a to (first (cdr list)) and b to (second (cdr list)), etc, see 2015-07-10T03:26:05Z synergy_: So a and b each become a list? 2015-07-10T03:26:19Z synergy_: Or do you mean the actual first element of the list 2015-07-10T03:26:47Z Bike: the actual first element of the list 2015-07-10T03:26:59Z synergy_: Ok that makes sense 2015-07-10T03:27:21Z Bike: you can try (loop for (key value) on list do (print (list key value))) and such, might help 2015-07-10T03:28:17Z synergy_: So on the second iteration, does the new a become the old b? Pretty much, does the traversal step by ones or by the length of the list you provide as var so that there's no overlap? 2015-07-10T03:28:55Z Bike: the traversal function is fixed as cdr by default, like i said 2015-07-10T03:29:07Z Bike: in my snippet i made it #'cddr so that it wouldn't duplicate things as you say 2015-07-10T03:31:23Z synergy_: And you used cddr because there were two elements in that list 2015-07-10T03:31:29Z Bike: right. 2015-07-10T03:32:06Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-10T03:32:29Z Bike: (loop for (key value) on '(:a 4 :b 7) do (print key)) => :A, 4, :B, 7, but (loop for (key value) on '(:a 4 :b 7) by #'cddr do (print key)) => :A, :B like you want 2015-07-10T03:33:54Z synergy_: I see 2015-07-10T03:33:59Z synergy_: I had to see what cddr actually was, and when I got to the hyperspec I was hit with so many combinations of a and d. ...That was a lot 2015-07-10T03:37:05Z DalekBaldwin: I only just found out that even though the binding form does destructuring, it doesn't work quite like destructuring-bind 2015-07-10T03:38:10Z |3b|: yeah, LOOP destructuring is simpler (but allows skipping elements with NIL) 2015-07-10T03:38:16Z DalekBaldwin: try (loop for ((a b c) d) on '((1 2) 3 (4 5) 6) by #'cddr collect a collect b collect c collect d) for example 2015-07-10T03:39:04Z DalekBaldwin: it doesn't recognize &optional, but can still treat variables as optional if a sublist terminates early 2015-07-10T03:40:49Z dwrngr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T03:40:58Z djinni` joined #lisp 2015-07-10T03:41:02Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2015-07-10T03:41:57Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-10T03:42:04Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-10T03:43:12Z Bike: synergy_: yeah all the combinations are a bit much. this loop thing is pretty much the only place i use any beyond car and cdr, personally 2015-07-10T03:44:17Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-10T03:45:23Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-10T03:45:30Z synergy_: Bike: Yea you could probably write a function that takes the number of levels in that you want so that you could replace the functionality of all of those with one 2015-07-10T03:45:55Z Bike: a guy i know wrote that as his first macro. 2015-07-10T03:46:51Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-10T03:48:39Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T03:52:08Z aeth: ah, looping by cddr, brilliant. How do you say cddr? cuddudder? 2015-07-10T03:52:25Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-10T03:52:47Z DalekBaldwin: could-ould-er 2015-07-10T03:52:52Z Bike: seedeedeearr 2015-07-10T03:54:06Z aeth: and then caddr would be caddudder, I guess 2015-07-10T03:55:32Z beach: aeth: The pronunciation is in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2015-07-10T03:55:41Z aeth: XD 2015-07-10T03:55:50Z beach: clhs caddr 2015-07-10T03:55:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm 2015-07-10T03:55:53Z Bike: (defmacro cr (middle form) (loop for l across (reverse (symbol-name middle)) do (setf form (ecase l ((#\a #\A) `(car ,form)) ((#\d #\D) `(cdr ,form)))) finally (return form))) 2015-07-10T03:56:27Z aeth: I almost put a "h" in there 2015-07-10T03:56:33Z aeth: But I decided to spell it like "udder" 2015-07-10T03:56:38Z aeth: English has too many ways to spell things. 2015-07-10T03:56:48Z Bike: even works for (cr || form), beaut 2015-07-10T04:07:33Z DalekBaldwin: quicklisp 2015-07-10 is out 2015-07-10T04:09:28Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-10T04:12:47Z PuercoPop: what was the name older attempt to write CL in CL? (not SICL). 2015-07-10T04:13:21Z beach: The Japanese guy? 2015-07-10T04:13:37Z PuercoPop: I think so 2015-07-10T04:13:53Z ahungry: cl21? 2015-07-10T04:13:58Z beach: No, no. 2015-07-10T04:14:05Z PuercoPop: no, an older like 10 years ago attempt 2015-07-10T04:14:09Z ahungry: ahhh 2015-07-10T04:14:16Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T04:14:19Z beach can't remember. 2015-07-10T04:14:35Z beach: Sacla. 2015-07-10T04:14:50Z nyef: ... Did that ever go anywhere? 2015-07-10T04:15:11Z nyef: Or did it just sort of die out before getting very far, like so many such efforts? 2015-07-10T04:15:25Z beach: I think it stopped. But I think he got pretty far. 2015-07-10T04:15:36Z PuercoPop: beach: thanks. I've been trying to remember it for almost a week 2015-07-10T04:15:46Z beach: http://homepage1.nifty.com/bmonkey/lisp/sacla/index-en.html 2015-07-10T04:16:01Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.0 2015-07-10T04:17:21Z nyef: Hrm. Last update looks like 2012? 2015-07-10T04:17:36Z nyef: July 2012? 2015-07-10T04:18:24Z nyef: Ah. An "I give up for now" message. 2015-07-10T04:19:05Z synergy_: So reading through Practical Common Lisp, I came across the #' operator. It was explained, but I'm trying to think of a more succinct way of describing it to myself. Does the #' operator just change the namespace lookup for a symbol from variable to function?/ 2015-07-10T04:19:25Z beach: synergy_: It is not an operator. 2015-07-10T04:19:39Z beach: synergy_: It is a reader macro that wraps its argument in (FUNCTION ...) 2015-07-10T04:19:49Z nyef: And FUNCTION is a special operator. 2015-07-10T04:20:01Z PuercoPop: on a similar note, is there a portable and 'short' implementation of a debugger? Currently I'm looking at sbcl's but it is not 'short' 2015-07-10T04:20:31Z nyef: PuercoPop: Nor would I argue that it is portable or particularly *good*. 2015-07-10T04:20:42Z synergy_: beach: Alright, thanks for clearing that up 2015-07-10T04:21:46Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T04:21:53Z nyef: synergy_: There are things other than symbols that you can use with FUNCTION. But basically, yes, it says "look at this thing as a function, and return that function as a value". 2015-07-10T04:22:55Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-10T04:23:03Z synergy_: nyef: Ok. Then why in the book was #' used with lambda declarations? Is this a case outside of symbols when you'd use that macro? 2015-07-10T04:23:07Z PuercoPop: nyef: yeah, but the portable is more of a nice to have. What I want to get is a better understanding of the restart system. For example, how do I use a condition to programatically generate one or more restarts from it. 2015-07-10T04:24:09Z nyef: synergy_: Lambda expressions, not declarations. And, yes, a lambda expression is a "name" for a function. Another case is a "SETF function" such as (setf aref). 2015-07-10T04:24:24Z drmeister: Hello 2015-07-10T04:24:34Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-10T04:24:42Z beach: Hello drmeister. 2015-07-10T04:24:48Z beach: Still in Vancouver? 2015-07-10T04:24:50Z nyef: PuercoPop: Oh! Umm... 2015-07-10T04:25:01Z drmeister: Yes. I'll be here for a few more weeks. 2015-07-10T04:25:06Z MasterPiece quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-10T04:25:27Z synergy_: nyef: "A lambda expression is a 'name' for a function." Could you elaborate? 2015-07-10T04:25:56Z beach: synergy_: It is just that the FUNCTION special operator takes either a function name or a lambda expression as an argument. 2015-07-10T04:26:01Z nyef: clhs 9.1.4.2.4 2015-07-10T04:26:01Z specbot: Associating a Restart with a Condition: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_adbd.htm 2015-07-10T04:26:05Z beach: synergy_: Nothing to worry about. 2015-07-10T04:26:09Z nyef: PuercoPop: That sort of thing? 2015-07-10T04:26:49Z aeth: so instead of (cdr (list 1 2 3)), I can write (funcall (function cdr) (list 1 2 3)) 2015-07-10T04:27:04Z aeth: and instead of that I can write (funcall (function funcall) (function cdr) (list 1 2 3)) 2015-07-10T04:27:19Z nyef: clhs function 2015-07-10T04:27:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 2015-07-10T04:27:23Z nyef: clhs function,special operator 2015-07-10T04:27:25Z nyef: Hrm. 2015-07-10T04:27:57Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-10T04:28:09Z nyef: synergy_: Have a read of CLHS for "Special Operator FUNCTION", particularly the part of the description that starts "If name is a lambda expression". 2015-07-10T04:28:32Z synergy_: Alright, I will 2015-07-10T04:28:45Z theos: has someone used CL for home automation or any type of device control? 2015-07-10T04:28:50Z nyef: Also check out the glossary entry (linked from that page) for lambda expression. 2015-07-10T04:29:50Z PuercoPop: nyef: in concrete. Say a value should be set to one of subdirectory names of a directory. When the value is incorrect I'd like to add a restart for each possible subdirectory. (Taken from this case: https://github.com/PuercoPop/stumpwm-contrib/blob/battery-modeline/modeline/battery/battery.lisp#L47). 2015-07-10T04:30:06Z PuercoPop: currently I prompt for the value 2015-07-10T04:30:53Z nyef: Technically it might not be a function name, but it's used as such in its most common scenarios (see also CLHS 3.1.2.1.2.4 and CLHS 3.1.3). 2015-07-10T04:31:42Z nyef: PuercoPop: Ah! You want restarts for each subdirectory there? 2015-07-10T04:32:08Z PuercoPop: Yes, as a first goal. 2015-07-10T04:32:45Z nyef: If you had a single subdirectory in hand, what would you use? 2015-07-10T04:32:56Z Bike: hm, would you have to do recursive invocations of restart-bind/case? suuuuucks 2015-07-10T04:33:11Z nyef: Bike: Aww... Now you've gone and spoiled it. 2015-07-10T04:33:19Z Bike: oops 2015-07-10T04:34:45Z nyef: PuercoPop: Anyway, Bike has the right of it. Get it working for a single directory, then use recursion. 2015-07-10T04:35:42Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-10T04:35:44Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T04:37:34Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T04:38:24Z Bike: now what i want to know is, are there any common implementations of restart-bind that wouldn't work just as well with an evaluated list 2015-07-10T04:39:10Z PuercoPop nods 2015-07-10T04:42:55Z vrrm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T04:43:35Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-10T04:44:53Z jackdaniel: jdhello o/ 2015-07-10T04:44:59Z jackdaniel: hello° 2015-07-10T04:45:21Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. 2015-07-10T04:46:57Z qxc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T04:49:36Z learnit quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T04:52:58Z PuercoPop: now the next task is to figure out how to tie *query-io* with stumpwm's commands. Which seem kind of CLIMish 2015-07-10T04:53:55Z learnit joined #lisp 2015-07-10T04:58:02Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-10T04:58:02Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T04:58:11Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-10T04:58:54Z learnit quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T05:05:24Z synergy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T05:09:29Z beach: nyef: Where do you see July 2012? 2015-07-10T05:09:31Z user4 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T05:09:52Z nyef: beach: In the Japanese version. 2015-07-10T05:10:00Z beach: Ah, OK. 2015-07-10T05:10:10Z user4 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-10T05:10:30Z nyef: Then I dumped it through google translate. 2015-07-10T05:10:46Z beach: I just did that as well :) 2015-07-10T05:10:59Z beach: "Status report" 2015-07-10T05:11:37Z learnit joined #lisp 2015-07-10T05:12:46Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T05:13:05Z jackdaniel: for the record cl21 uses cltl2 stuff not covered in clhs, therefore not that portable 2015-07-10T05:13:25Z Niac joined #lisp 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(Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T10:57:25Z Xach: H4ns: I'll build quicklisp and see what happens! 2015-07-10T10:57:37Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T10:57:41Z learnit joined #lisp 2015-07-10T10:58:22Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-10T10:59:05Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T10:59:39Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:00:30Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:00:56Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:03:09Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T11:04:12Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T11:09:17Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-10T11:12:30Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:13:50Z akersof quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-10T11:13:58Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:14:44Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:19:05Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T11:20:18Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T11:23:56Z theos: has someone used CL for home automation or any type of device control? 2015-07-10T11:24:32Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-10T11:24:48Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:27:20Z H4ns: Xach: Thanks! 2015-07-10T11:30:08Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:30:35Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:32:37Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-10T11:32:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:35:22Z munksgaard quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-10T11:36:06Z Brozo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T11:36:59Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:38:29Z pranavrc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-10T11:38:42Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:39:21Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T11:41:57Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:42:43Z scymtym_: H4ns: will passing a PURI:URI object to DRAKMA:HTTP-REQUEST signal an error in the new version? 2015-07-10T11:43:04Z H4ns: scymtym_: that would not be desireable, i'd say 2015-07-10T11:44:03Z scymtym_: sorry, do you mean passing the object or signaling the error would not be desirable? 2015-07-10T11:44:20Z H4ns: scymtym_: signalling an error would not be desirable 2015-07-10T11:45:00Z H4ns: scymtym_: but it is not unlikely that exactly this could happen now. i would want to quickly fix the problem, though. 2015-07-10T11:45:19Z scymtym_: H4ns: i see, thank you 2015-07-10T11:45:24Z H4ns: scymtym_: any help with that would be appreciated. 2015-07-10T11:47:36Z scymtym_: H4ns: since drakma itself should probably not depend on puri in the long run (that would defeat the purpose of the migration to quri, i guess), maybe making HTTP-REQUEST a generic function and adding a method for PURI:URI in a drakma-compat (or similar) system would be a solution 2015-07-10T11:47:58Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T11:48:21Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:48:35Z H4ns: scymtym_: i see no problem in depending on puri. the purpose of the change is not to get rid of the dependency, but to improve the behavior of drakma with URLs containing non-ascii characters 2015-07-10T11:49:27Z scymtym_: H4ns: then converting puris to quris should suffice (no idea whether that is easy, though) 2015-07-10T11:49:44Z H4ns: scymtym_: the number of keyword arguments that HTTP-REQUEST accepts makes it a bit hard to move to a generic function without adding massive amounts of pass-through code. 2015-07-10T11:50:57Z H4ns: scymtym_: it should not be too hard - then again, it may be better to force people moving to quri - they were supposedly passing PURI:URLs in the past in the hope that they could deal with non-ascii characters better that way, so quri should make that work better. 2015-07-10T11:51:02Z scymtym_: H4ns: i don't know the code, but there probably already is something like (ensure-uri argument) since the function accepts strings and URI objects. maybe the conversion can be hooked in there. 2015-07-10T11:51:11Z scymtym_ is just speculating and will stop now 2015-07-10T11:51:59Z H4ns: scymtym_: the reality is much sadder than what you've speculated. 2015-07-10T11:52:26Z H4ns: (setq uri (cond ((puri:uri-p uri) (puri:copy-uri uri)) (t (puri:parse-uri uri)))) 2015-07-10T11:52:29Z H4ns: oh boy. 2015-07-10T11:52:31Z H4ns: :/ 2015-07-10T11:54:20Z Xach has been using puri api on returned url 2015-07-10T11:54:58Z scymtym_: H4ns: i'm sure people will recognize the benefit of migrating to quri, but it would be good if they could use the next quicklisp release without touching all code using drakma (unless everybody passes strings) 2015-07-10T11:55:03Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:55:06Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T11:55:42Z H4ns: scymtym_: two options: send pull requests, or complain that this is too much pain now and have me pull back the release :) 2015-07-10T11:56:21Z H4ns: scymtym_: i'm really open to either option. i don't want to cause any trouble. 2015-07-10T11:56:22Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T11:58:12Z Xach: I suspect that my building quicklisp won't help to find many problems, because it seems like a runtime issue, not a compile-time one. 2015-07-10T11:58:16Z scymtym_: H4ns: for my code, i will probably bite the bullet and convert it. no sure whether that solution will work for all of quicklisp, though. 2015-07-10T11:59:39Z H4ns: I think it will be more a problem for users of quicklisp rather than for quicklisp itself. 2015-07-10T11:59:49Z Xach: quicklisp does not use drakma 2015-07-10T12:00:10Z Xach is being imprecise; by "building quicklisp" he means all quicklisp-provided projects 2015-07-10T12:00:27Z Xach: but the quicklisp client, that fetches those projects, does not use drakma 2015-07-10T12:00:33Z H4ns: of course. i guess scymtym_ referred to projects within quicklisp that use drakma 2015-07-10T12:00:34Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-10T12:00:43Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T12:00:50Z scymtym_: yes 2015-07-10T12:07:05Z aftershave joined #lisp 2015-07-10T12:12:37Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-10T12:19:17Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-10T12:21:10Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T12:22:32Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-10T12:23:00Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-07-10T12:31:35Z mrottenkolber quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-10T12:31:57Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-10T12:39:34Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T12:39:34Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-10T12:39:34Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T12:42:15Z user4 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T12:49:29Z chemuduguntar quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T12:49:41Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T12:53:05Z loz: on ccl: Unknown character name - "BLACK_VERTICAL_RECTANGLE" . 2015-07-10T12:53:09Z loz: ... 2015-07-10T12:56:10Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T12:57:11Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-07-10T12:59:08Z jackdaniel: Xach: is quicklisp download module capable of handling https? 2015-07-10T12:59:26Z jackdaniel: client that is° 2015-07-10T13:04:34Z copycat quit (Quit: copycat) 2015-07-10T13:06:15Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-10T13:09:07Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T13:10:18Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T13:10:20Z Xach: jackdaniel: no. 2015-07-10T13:10:30Z Xach: jackdaniel: i hope to make it easy to plug in a replacement that does, though. 2015-07-10T13:11:02Z jackdaniel: thanks 2015-07-10T13:11:39Z dlowe: you could do like emacs does and punt it to an external process 2015-07-10T13:11:47Z Xach: I'm not going to do that by default 2015-07-10T13:12:03Z Adlai: hmmm... anybody have paredit bindings that work over ssh? 2015-07-10T13:12:41Z dlowe: They work for me. Terminal troubles? 2015-07-10T13:12:47Z Adlai might have under-configured things, but all the slurp and barf keybindings just don't make it through 2015-07-10T13:13:03Z dlowe: In a pinch, you can use ESC prefix in place of M- 2015-07-10T13:13:10Z dlowe: and that usually goes through 2015-07-10T13:13:43Z Adlai: the trouble is with eg C-<right> aka C-) 2015-07-10T13:13:56Z Adlai: aka paredit-forward-slurp-sexp, which i'd rather not type each time :P 2015-07-10T13:14:17Z Xach: adlai: i had a different problem (not plain ssh, but ssh+screen): http://lispblog.xach.com/post/112939066338/using-paredit-within-screen 2015-07-10T13:14:42Z Adlai: aha, this is ssh_tmux, might be the same issue? 2015-07-10T13:14:45Z Adlai reads 2015-07-10T13:15:27Z jdz: Shinmera: also, discussing stuff on Twitter sucks 2015-07-10T13:16:20Z Xach: H4ns: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-10/failure-report.html has some failures related to your change. the pattern is "assume that drakma depends-on puri, and use puri functions on the drakma return values" 2015-07-10T13:16:31Z Xach: the error ends up being "package PURI not found" 2015-07-10T13:16:51Z Xach: Shinmera: many qtools failures today 2015-07-10T13:16:59Z Shinmera: jdz: I can't say I know why that happens. The error is not exactly descriptive 2015-07-10T13:17:16Z pjb: Anyways, Knuth never considered go to to be harmful. It's his editor who wrote this title. Do you cater to editors' advices or to Knuth's? 2015-07-10T13:17:18Z Shinmera: jdz: Probably some error internal to Qt that isn't handled right. 2015-07-10T13:17:31Z jdz: Shinmera: i could try narrowing it down to exact image(s) 2015-07-10T13:17:32Z loz: Xach why not tramp/sshfs? 2015-07-10T13:17:35Z Shinmera: Xach: Aw jeez. 2015-07-10T13:17:46Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:17:46Z Shinmera: jdz: If you want to spend your time with that, be my guest! 2015-07-10T13:17:53Z Xach: Shinmera: /qt-libs-20150710-git/libcommonqt/source/commonqt.pro": No such file or directory 2015-07-10T13:17:56Z jdz: pjb: Dijkstra? 2015-07-10T13:18:09Z Xach: loz: I have not been able to get a good connection between slime and tramp. 2015-07-10T13:18:13Z pjb: Perhaps, Knuth was referenced above, I just copy-pasted. 2015-07-10T13:18:31Z H4ns: Xach: ok - i have a few hours to burn on this, but just a small few, and i don't want to cause more grief than necessary. what do you suggest? 2015-07-10T13:18:34Z Bike: dijkstra wrote goto considered harmful, knuth wrote the response about how goto was actually useful sometimes. 2015-07-10T13:18:34Z Xach: Shinmera: luckily the next release is a month away, plenty of time to fix. 2015-07-10T13:18:49Z Bike: his main reason was for error handling, though, so it's not too lisp relevant 2015-07-10T13:18:56Z H4ns: (comments/opinions from other users are appreciated as well) 2015-07-10T13:19:11Z Shinmera: Xach: that's more of a curse than a blessing, since I wanted to have the changes from last night in still. 2015-07-10T13:19:22Z Xach: H4ns: I don't know. I wish there was a way to keep using puri but get the features you want. This will break a few of my projects that aren't in quicklisp. 2015-07-10T13:19:35Z loz: Xach cause of network problems? 2015-07-10T13:19:53Z Xach: loz: No, because of the pathname translation. 2015-07-10T13:19:54Z H4ns: Xach: it is not so much features that i want, but that are wanted by other users who try to use drakma with non-ascii urls. 2015-07-10T13:20:12Z Shinmera: Xach: Can't say I know what that error has to do with anything though. It still builds fine on Travis. 2015-07-10T13:20:18Z p_l: Bike: dijkstra wrote an article about issues with goto-spaghetti programs, Wirth renamed it "goto considered harmful" (making it the only part remembered by people), Knuth wrote a response about structured programming with goto 2015-07-10T13:20:18Z H4ns: Xach: puri is broken beyond repair in that regard, hence the move to quri 2015-07-10T13:20:23Z p_l: Bike: IIRC 2015-07-10T13:20:25Z loz: Xach i don't understand then why do you need tramp here, ssh tunnel should make it 2015-07-10T13:20:27Z Xach: H4ns: beyond repair? 2015-07-10T13:20:29Z Bike: something like that, yeah 2015-07-10T13:20:36Z Xach: loz: I don't want to discuss it, sorry. 2015-07-10T13:20:36Z H4ns: Xach: yes. puri is really really broken. 2015-07-10T13:20:47Z loz: ok, no problems 2015-07-10T13:21:18Z dlowe: Seems like the only thing to do is to file feature requests and hope they get fixed before the next cycle 2015-07-10T13:21:31Z H4ns: Xach: in any case, i am personally not interested beyond not wanting to be hated. it seems that i could get more hate by the quri change than by just keeping things as they are. 2015-07-10T13:21:41Z dlowe: That's an interesting and thorny problem, though 2015-07-10T13:21:41Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:22:00Z dlowe: in the long term, I mean 2015-07-10T13:22:09Z p_l: H4ns: would it be possible to write a puri-compat library for quri? 2015-07-10T13:22:24Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:22:25Z Xach: H4ns: I think I would keep drakma using puri and release drakma2 or drachma or something. 2015-07-10T13:22:33Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:22:41Z H4ns: Xach: ok. i'll pull the change and the release. 2015-07-10T13:22:54Z dlowe: You could prevent that by entirely subsuming the uri abstraction, so drakma only returned drakma-uris, and then you could change what a drakma-uri is 2015-07-10T13:23:10Z Xach: that also requires a time machine to go back and do that in the past 2015-07-10T13:23:23Z Xach: (or doing it for the future drakma2-or-whatever) 2015-07-10T13:23:25Z H4ns: dlowe: i'm not going to invest any significant work into the maintenance of ediware going forward, sorry. 2015-07-10T13:23:26Z dlowe: Sure, I'm interested in a general strategy 2015-07-10T13:23:34Z dlowe: Not this particular incident 2015-07-10T13:23:38Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-10T13:23:38Z dlowe: because it's going to happen again 2015-07-10T13:23:48Z jdz: Shinmera: it definitely crashes on this image: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4093182/p1501ay.jpg 2015-07-10T13:24:03Z eudoxia: i use quri for everything, but i agree: puri works and drakma should keep it for bugwards compatibility. 2015-07-10T13:24:19Z eudoxia: people who want to use quri can use dexador, an HTTP client built on it 2015-07-10T13:24:23Z trebor_home joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:24:24Z dlowe: eudoxia: intentional or accidental typo? :) 2015-07-10T13:24:28Z Shinmera: jdz: Thanks. I'll see if I can reproduce/fix it. 2015-07-10T13:24:35Z eudoxia: dlowe: intentional 2015-07-10T13:24:45Z Shinmera: Though again, the actual image handling is all Qt, so I doubt i can do much beyond catching the error. 2015-07-10T13:25:09Z jdz: Shinmera: i'm not complaining, just trying to help :) 2015-07-10T13:25:25Z myrk2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T13:25:33Z Shinmera: jdz: I on the other hand /am/ complaining. 2015-07-10T13:26:02Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:26:09Z myrk2 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:27:01Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1 2015-07-10T13:27:24Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:29:28Z myrk2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T13:29:29Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:29:32Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-10T13:29:39Z Shinmera: Xach: Something else on your system must have changed that suddenly revealed this as I haven't changed that part of the library in a long while. I'll see what I can do to reproduce it. 2015-07-10T13:29:45Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:29:56Z Xach: Shinmera: ok 2015-07-10T13:30:11Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T13:30:17Z Brozo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:30:42Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:31:38Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:31:54Z Shinmera: jdz: If you have the time: Seeing if you can successfully load qt-libs on OS X would help me out a lot 2015-07-10T13:32:11Z Shinmera: The latest quicklisp variant though (today's release) 2015-07-10T13:38:26Z Shinmera: Xach: Looks like github is having trouble serving the source archive that qt-libs tries to download. 2015-07-10T13:38:31Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T13:38:46Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:38:50Z Xach: NO! It MUST be something on MY system! 2015-07-10T13:39:06Z learnit quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-10T13:39:11Z Shinmera: Well if that was the cause on your end then you would've gotten a drakma error, rather than a file-not-found issue 2015-07-10T13:39:16Z Shinmera: So there's yet something else going on 2015-07-10T13:39:29Z Xach checks the .cache 2015-07-10T13:39:51Z jdz: Shinmera: yes, i hit the 500 status on "Downloading https://github.com/Shinmera/qt4/archive/qt-libs1.1.0.zip" 2015-07-10T13:40:15Z Shinmera: Maybe all the quicklisp downloads are trashing github's servers :^) 2015-07-10T13:40:33Z Xach: i can pay them a little something out of the monthly donations 2015-07-10T13:40:34Z jdz: hitting the continue restart a few times gets me back to the REPL 2015-07-10T13:40:45Z Xach: so they can lease a new linode or something 2015-07-10T13:40:45Z cluck: Shinmera: the drakma error must be due to the greek economic crisis ;) 2015-07-10T13:41:22Z eudoxia: github just gave me a unicorn 2015-07-10T13:41:34Z eudoxia: so it's probs partially down 2015-07-10T13:41:38Z Shinmera: Yeah. 2015-07-10T13:41:58Z jdz: oh no, i lied, i aborted the compilation, then restarted the quickload 2015-07-10T13:42:12Z Shinmera: Xach: Can you tell me what the folder contains that is reported in the failure? 2015-07-10T13:42:21Z jdz: which succeeded, but i thin it most probably is in a broken state 2015-07-10T13:42:23Z Shinmera: It might be creating an additional subdirectory that it shouldn't. 2015-07-10T13:42:29Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T13:42:31Z Shinmera: jdz: Yeah. 2015-07-10T13:43:57Z Xach: Shinmera: the source/ directory is empty 2015-07-10T13:44:00Z Shinmera: jdz: You can retry by 1) restarting your image (this is necessary due to an ASDF bug) 2) quickloading qt-lib-generator 3) calling (qt-lib-generator:install-system :libcommonqt :force T) 2015-07-10T13:44:46Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T13:45:01Z Shinmera: Xach: Hmm. Well, I'll see what happens once github is back. 2015-07-10T13:45:09Z pjb: GitHub is Down <https://status.github.com/> 2015-07-10T13:45:23Z p_l: I've seen "it's up" just a moment ago 2015-07-10T13:45:58Z pjb: GitLab is Up https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master 2015-07-10T13:46:15Z Xach ponders trying amazon's hosted git for some things 2015-07-10T13:46:30Z pjb: GitHub status: 15:43 CEST We're investigating problems affecting a small number of repositories. 2015-07-10T13:46:34Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:47:59Z eudoxia: go home everyone, no work today 2015-07-10T13:48:15Z Shinmera: Well I have physics to study, so I'll get back to this later. 2015-07-10T13:49:09Z jdz: eudoxia: so much for the "distributed" part 2015-07-10T13:49:24Z eudoxia: jdz: the "D" in DVCS stands for GitHub 2015-07-10T13:49:31Z prphp joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:49:34Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-10T13:49:37Z p_l: well, in this case it was used for centralised storage, git itself works pretty well :D 2015-07-10T13:49:53Z Shinmera: jdz: The only reason I'm using GitHub to begin with is because everything else would probably be even less reliable. 2015-07-10T13:50:20Z jdz: p_l: centralised storage, and a major part in deployment pipeline 2015-07-10T13:50:22Z jackdaniel: common-lisp.net :) 2015-07-10T13:50:28Z pjb: The difference, if you hosted your own git server, is that you could repair them yourself when they failed. 2015-07-10T13:50:30Z H4ns: "We're investigating problems affecting a small number of repositories." right. 2015-07-10T13:50:31Z Shinmera has thought of distributing the necessary source code along with qt-libs instead of downloading it, but that would explode the size to stupid amounts and duplicate things on most systems with stuff they don't need. 2015-07-10T13:50:40Z trebor_home quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T13:51:03Z pjb: Shinmera: And your own server could actually be more reliable, because it wouldn't be loaded as much as github server, and it wouldn't be DDOSed as much. 2015-07-10T13:51:20Z Shinmera: pjb: But I'm not up 24/7 either. 2015-07-10T13:51:40Z jackdaniel: and vps are cheap (even for standards *here*) 2015-07-10T13:51:49Z Brozo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T13:52:17Z Shinmera: So far, github has a better uptime percentage than I do, and having the archives alongside the source code hosting just makes sense. 2015-07-10T13:53:12Z learnit joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:55:05Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:55:17Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:56:22Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-07-10T13:56:28Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:01:13Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-10T14:03:39Z Shinmera: Xach: the archive downloaded fine for me now and the compilation went by smoothly. 2015-07-10T14:07:46Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T14:09:41Z Shinmera: Xach: Travis also passed. If you could try rebuilding it, that'd be great. 2015-07-10T14:10:36Z Xach tries 2015-07-10T14:10:46Z Shinmera: Do you clean the fasl cache between tries? 2015-07-10T14:10:55Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:11:56Z Shinmera is guessing that the empty source/ directory might prevent it from downloading the archive again. 2015-07-10T14:12:04Z Xach: I just tried with an empty fasl cache 2015-07-10T14:13:22Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T14:13:36Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:14:06Z Shinmera: Ok. 2015-07-10T14:14:56Z Xach: hmm, same failure 2015-07-10T14:16:56Z Shinmera: Does the failure report not include things from standard-output? 2015-07-10T14:17:36Z Shinmera: Because usually qt-libs should print status messages about what it's doing, which I'm not seeing any of in the report. 2015-07-10T14:17:43Z Xach: Shinmera: no. here's what i am getting: http://xach.com/tmp/qtools.txt 2015-07-10T14:19:19Z Shinmera: Looks like it isn't downloading anything then. 2015-07-10T14:19:30Z user4 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-10T14:19:31Z Shinmera: Ok. I'll need some time to figure out what's going on here. 2015-07-10T14:19:37Z Xach: hmmm 2015-07-10T14:19:40Z Xach tries something else 2015-07-10T14:19:47Z user4 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:20:03Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-10T14:21:20Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:22:09Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T14:22:55Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:23:12Z Xach: Shinmera: i think the drakma 2.0.0 changes busted it. the 2.0.1 update fixed it. 2015-07-10T14:23:33Z Shinmera: Huh. 2015-07-10T14:23:35Z user4 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-10T14:23:52Z Shinmera: I was going to suggest drakma as a joke, but whadda ya know 2015-07-10T14:23:57Z user4 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:24:15Z H4ns: that sounds horrible 2015-07-10T14:25:20Z dlowe: H4ns: I guess you're not interested in my iolib hack for drakma :D 2015-07-10T14:25:47Z Shinmera: The current QL (10.7.2015) is still on drakma 1.3.15, is that right? 2015-07-10T14:25:53Z Xach: yes 2015-07-10T14:26:03Z Shinmera: Ok. That would explain why it still worked on my system then. 2015-07-10T14:26:08Z Xach: ja 2015-07-10T14:26:30Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:27:08Z H4ns: dlowe: well, if you want to have it in the release, then i might be interested with my maintainer hat on. 2015-07-10T14:28:31Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:29:05Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:29:16Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:34:33Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:35:15Z Vityok quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T14:35:15Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T14:37:04Z ceryo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T14:37:35Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:38:03Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:41:31Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T14:41:46Z dlowe: H4ns: I'll see if there's a way for it not to be a hack 2015-07-10T14:41:51Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:42:16Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:45:42Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-10T14:46:09Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:49:04Z akkad: does ecl actually compile your lisp code? with this I am getting a tiny binary with all my lisp code it in, even after strip1(). https://gist.github.com/5cbf4aaf7a6bb4d29e87 2015-07-10T14:51:34Z Mhoram quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T14:52:50Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:54:00Z jackdaniel: akkad: it does compile code to c, and c code is compiled with compiler on host (unless you use bytecompiler) - not that binary is dynamically linked with libecl 2015-07-10T14:54:14Z jackdaniel: s/not/note/ 2015-07-10T14:54:33Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:55:25Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:55:47Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T14:55:52Z akkad: right 2015-07-10T14:56:15Z jackdaniel: you may invoke ldd on your binary, to check it 2015-07-10T14:59:00Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-10T14:59:48Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T15:00:02Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:00:47Z prphp_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:00:51Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:04:56Z prphp quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-10T15:08:22Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:10:00Z hlavaty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T15:10:49Z badkins_ quit 2015-07-10T15:13:12Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:23:12Z smith_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:25:35Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:25:58Z smith_: Hello guys, I'm trying to figure out how to send large files using Common Lisp, is there any library that might makes my job here a little easier? 2015-07-10T15:26:14Z smith_: I'm thinking of using usocket, though it might be a bit too low level. 2015-07-10T15:26:49Z recurry joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:27:16Z recurry: As a first language, I'm torn between Lisp and C. Any recommendations? 2015-07-10T15:27:25Z jasom: smith_: you could use drakma and hunchentoot 2015-07-10T15:27:46Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-10T15:27:48Z williamyao: recurry: I'm not sure what you expect asking that question in here; you already know what people are going to answer. 2015-07-10T15:28:00Z jasom: recurry: both are good to learn. If you do choose lisp, I can recommend a good book 2015-07-10T15:28:13Z jasom: minion: tell recurry about gentle 2015-07-10T15:28:13Z minion: recurry: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-07-10T15:28:44Z jasom: my favorite introductory text for C is both out-of-print and off-topic for this channel 2015-07-10T15:29:49Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:30:02Z recurry: Would you all say that "Gentle" is a better introduction to Lisp than K&R is to C? 2015-07-10T15:30:27Z jasom: recurry: I don't like K&R as an intro to C 2015-07-10T15:30:32Z eudoxia: recurry: definitely, it's pretty much the book that taught me how to program 2015-07-10T15:30:45Z jasom: recurry: Gentle is a very good book for lisp as a first language 2015-07-10T15:30:48Z smith_: jasom: thanks, I'm basically trying to create a file server in CL. I'll take a look at both drakma & hunchentoot. 2015-07-10T15:31:17Z jasom: smith_: this was just a suggestion for expediently sending files. drakma is an http client and hunchentoot is an http server 2015-07-10T15:33:04Z smith_: jasom: Ah, I see. Then it sounds like both are a bit of an overkill. 2015-07-10T15:33:18Z smith_: We still don't have a SSH library in CL, do we? 2015-07-10T15:33:44Z recurry: jasom: Thanks for the recommendation. Checking out the pdf. 2015-07-10T15:34:02Z eudoxia: smith_: https://github.com/alxchk/cl-libssh2 and trivial-ssh 2015-07-10T15:34:05Z recurry: jasom: Btw, how was your Lisp -> C transition? 2015-07-10T15:34:47Z smith_: eudoxia: Ooh sweet! Thanks! I love it when I'm wrong. 2015-07-10T15:35:16Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T15:35:17Z jasom: recurry: oh, the eclipse to emscripten? I fixed a lot of bugs in eclipse, but never got it working on emscripten 2015-07-10T15:36:41Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:37:42Z prphp joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:40:00Z user4 quit (Quit: user4) 2015-07-10T15:40:31Z eudoxia: jasom: where's the latest repo? 2015-07-10T15:40:38Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:41:17Z prphp_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-10T15:42:43Z jasom: eudoxia: should be on my github account 2015-07-10T15:45:46Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:46:36Z nydel quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-10T15:48:52Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:51:28Z subopt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T15:51:57Z subopt joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:55:32Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-10T15:57:08Z jackdaniel: recurry: embeddable common lisp implementation allows you to use both C and Lisp at the same time 2015-07-10T15:58:24Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T16:00:27Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:02:45Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:03:13Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:03:19Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T16:04:24Z kedorlaomer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-10T16:05:23Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:06:03Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-10T16:06:20Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:06:25Z jasom: jackdaniel: he should probably learn the languages one-at-a-time though 2015-07-10T16:07:08Z jackdaniel: you're right 2015-07-10T16:07:49Z learnit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T16:18:06Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-10T16:21:59Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T16:23:03Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-10T16:23:22Z recurry left #lisp 2015-07-10T16:24:47Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-10T16:25:23Z pjb: smith_: for a (big) file server on the web with CL, I had to use a C process to upload and download the files, since hunchentoot was way to slow at transfering big files (100M - 600M). It was a few years ago, perhaps that changed? 2015-07-10T16:27:13Z prphp_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:28:21Z drmeister: How do I configure ASDF from within the Common Lisp environment - there was a special variable for that. 2015-07-10T16:28:47Z eudoxia: drmeister: you mean the central registry? 2015-07-10T16:28:50Z Shinmera: are you looking for asdf:*central-registry*? 2015-07-10T16:28:53Z trn joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:28:58Z smith_: pjb: Thanks for sharing your experiences. Yeah, that's what I feared. Though I'll try out trivial-ssh and cl-libssh2 first, and if those were too slow, try to go low level with usocket. 2015-07-10T16:29:06Z Shinmera: Or what kind of configuration do you mean 2015-07-10T16:29:08Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T16:29:12Z drmeister: Does asdf:*central-registry* work? 2015-07-10T16:29:17Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:29:18Z Shinmera: Work for /what/ 2015-07-10T16:29:27Z |3b|: it does what it has always done 2015-07-10T16:29:30Z pjb: drmeister: yes, I use it all the time. 2015-07-10T16:29:41Z pjb: drmeister: for "manual" stuff. 2015-07-10T16:29:50Z drmeister: work to add directories that contain .asd files to ASDF's list of directories that it searches for .asd files. 2015-07-10T16:29:58Z drmeister: pjb: How do you use it? 2015-07-10T16:29:58Z pjb: that's its purpose. 2015-07-10T16:29:59Z Shinmera: You push directory pathnames onto there that it should search for asd files. (non-recursively) 2015-07-10T16:30:12Z pjb: drmeister: (pushnew some-path asdf:*central-registry* :test 'equalp) 2015-07-10T16:30:18Z pjb: some-dir-path 2015-07-10T16:30:47Z prphp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-10T16:31:49Z pjb: drmeister: sometimes, you can appendf to it, or even setf. Check an example: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/tools/try-systems.lisp#L153 and https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/tools/try-systems.lisp#L82 2015-07-10T16:32:27Z pjb: drmeister: but of course, you would scan other repositories than ~/quicklisp usually. 2015-07-10T16:34:07Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:34:11Z ofosos: /quit 2015-07-10T16:34:13Z ofosos quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-10T16:36:56Z jackdaniel: /quit 2015-07-10T16:36:57Z angavrilov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T16:37:01Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T16:39:02Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-10T16:40:44Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:40:45Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-10T16:41:29Z luis: |3b|: ouch, so many bugs! :) 2015-07-10T16:41:39Z |3b|: luis: yeah :/ 2015-07-10T16:41:48Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:42:28Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T16:42:52Z luis: I will be travelling for a week starting tomorrow, so I won't have the chance to look into them until I return. 2015-07-10T16:44:09Z |3b| hopes that's all for now :) 2015-07-10T16:44:39Z |3b|: though haven't tried all the functions/structs/etc yet 2015-07-10T16:46:43Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T16:46:44Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-10T16:47:38Z theverbg joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:47:56Z smith_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T16:49:25Z |3b|: oops, actually i think i forgot to report one :/ 2015-07-10T16:49:41Z pie_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:50:07Z smith_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:50:30Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:51:56Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:52:23Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T16:52:36Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T16:53:53Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:53:54Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:54:10Z |3b|: ok, filed 2015-07-10T16:55:24Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:56:04Z fe[nl]ix: luis: can we move issues to github ? 2015-07-10T16:56:44Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:56:45Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:56:59Z pgomes: Hi 2015-07-10T16:57:09Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T16:57:11Z pgomes: Is there anybody who can help me with quick lisp ?:P 2015-07-10T16:58:25Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:58:26Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-07-10T16:58:26Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-10T16:58:40Z pgomes: I have updated the distribution the most current one today 2015-07-10T16:58:56Z pgomes: and now I get an error when trying to install the real on lined 2015-07-10T16:59:08Z pgomes: debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR: 2015-07-10T16:59:08Z pgomes: Value of 0 in(CHAR-NAME 0) is 0, not a CHARACTER. 2015-07-10T16:59:08Z pgomes: Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:EXIT) to exit from SBCL. 2015-07-10T16:59:08Z pgomes: restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name): 2015-07-10T16:59:08Z pgomes: 0: [ABORT] Exit debugger, returning to top level. 2015-07-10T16:59:09Z pgomes: (SB-C::%COMPILE-TIME-TYPE-ERROR (0) CHARACTER #<unavailable argument> (0) "(CHAR-NAME 0)") 2015-07-10T16:59:11Z pgomes: 0] 0 2015-07-10T17:00:12Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-10T17:02:35Z pgomes: sorry wrong channel 2015-07-10T17:02:58Z dlowe: even in the right channel, you should be using lisppaste :) 2015-07-10T17:04:06Z pgomes: you are correct 2015-07-10T17:04:08Z pgomes: i will do so 2015-07-10T17:05:36Z prphp__ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:06:12Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-10T17:06:25Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-10T17:07:01Z pgomes: this is the paste 2015-07-10T17:07:01Z pgomes: http://paste.lisp.org/+38Q6 2015-07-10T17:07:03Z jackdaniel: attach some brazzers passwords, as you can see from listing 90% of people does that to gain help ;D 2015-07-10T17:07:07Z pgomes: in case anybody is interested 2015-07-10T17:07:33Z pgomes: :P 2015-07-10T17:08:24Z dlowe: hm. yuck. 2015-07-10T17:08:34Z dlowe: I don't use linedit, sorry. 2015-07-10T17:08:57Z pgomes: Its just out of curiosity ...slime si a better solution all together 2015-07-10T17:09:02Z prphp_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:09:22Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:09:28Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:10:33Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:11:01Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:12:48Z luis: fe[nl]ix: we've had this discussion before. I kind of like launchpad, but won't object to moving _if_ we migrate all the issues (open and closed). 2015-07-10T17:13:06Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:13:47Z fe[nl]ix: I'll try to find a migration script 2015-07-10T17:14:31Z luis: ok :) 2015-07-10T17:15:24Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:23:58Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:31:00Z badkins quit 2015-07-10T17:31:42Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:31:45Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:31:55Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:32:55Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:34:28Z smith_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-10T17:35:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:37:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:37:41Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:38:47Z prphp joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:38:47Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:39:13Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:42:20Z prphp__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:43:47Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:45:17Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-10T17:46:09Z loz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:47:22Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T17:48:50Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:48:53Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:49:26Z loz joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:51:54Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:52:29Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:54:39Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:55:03Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:55:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:55:23Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:55:47Z bertro joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:56:01Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:56:29Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:58:05Z chu quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-10T17:58:51Z fizixer joined #lisp 2015-07-10T17:59:07Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T17:59:43Z cluck_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:00:03Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T18:00:10Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:00:18Z cluck quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-10T18:00:23Z cluck_ is now known as cluck 2015-07-10T18:00:42Z fizixer: I'm trying to understand 'lisp facilitates creation of embedded DSLs'. I see that we can create a lisp DSL using s-expressions which itself is code. However... 2015-07-10T18:01:35Z fizixer: when you need to validate the structure of that DSL, in other words, detect and report syntax errors of that DSL, then the amount of coding overhead in lisp vs any other language is not that different. Am I right? 2015-07-10T18:02:02Z drmeister: Is there a way to list directories recursively? 2015-07-10T18:02:18Z fizixer: by syntax errors I don't mean errors in s-expressions, but errors in the "schema" of the DSL. 2015-07-10T18:02:34Z Xach: drmeister: :wild-inferiors, sort of 2015-07-10T18:02:56Z Xach: drmeister: e.g. (directory "foo/**/*.asd") will generally find all the *.asd files in any subdirectory of "foo/" 2015-07-10T18:03:40Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T18:03:54Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:04:10Z dlowe: fizixer: that's correct, though in CL you can compile your DSL to Common Lisp and then to machine code, which is pretty novel 2015-07-10T18:04:45Z jackdaniel: fizixer: you can match patterns 2015-07-10T18:04:55Z jackdaniel: scheme has even defsyntax 2015-07-10T18:05:21Z jackdaniel: but cl doesn't have builtin stuff for that as far as I'm concerned 2015-07-10T18:05:46Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:06:00Z dlowe: fizixer: it also depends on what level of abstraction your DSL resides 2015-07-10T18:06:21Z |3b|: fizixer: i think it is more about the ease of use than the ease of implementation, though trivial parsing helps with the latter 2015-07-10T18:06:39Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:07:09Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-10T18:08:16Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:08:26Z |3b|: and CL is probably a bit easier to generate than a lot of languages (everything is an expression, etc) 2015-07-10T18:08:57Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:09:30Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T18:09:35Z |3b|: letting you get directly to the "implement the DSL itself" part, even if that can still be arbitrarily complicated 2015-07-10T18:12:57Z |3b|: also compose a bit better than running preprocessors, since macros can expand to other macros, while if you wanted to use one DSL from another with a preprocessor, you would in the worst case have to keep running all your possible preprocessors until nothing changed 2015-07-10T18:13:33Z fizixer: e.g., consider this valid DSL program: (paragraphs 'text' (list (listitem 'text') (listitem 'text')) 'text') 2015-07-10T18:13:40Z fizixer: but this is invalid DSL: (paragraphs 'text' (list (listitem 'text')) 'text' (listitem 'text')) even though it's valid code. 2015-07-10T18:13:52Z fizixer: because listitem should reside inside a list 2015-07-10T18:14:39Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:19:05Z mindless_null joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:19:42Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:20:19Z jackdaniel: fizixer: you can create macro list estabilishing macro listitem, so listitem isn't valid identifier outside of list 2015-07-10T18:20:33Z jasom: fizixer: macrolet in paragraphs could handle that 2015-07-10T18:20:49Z jasom: s/paragraphs/listitem 2015-07-10T18:22:06Z fizixer: hmm 2015-07-10T18:22:38Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:22:45Z Alfr quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-10T18:27:28Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:27:28Z gendl_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T18:27:41Z Jirachier quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-10T18:33:22Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:33:53Z gabriel_laddel is now known as gabriel_laddel_w 2015-07-10T18:34:29Z gabriel_laddel_w is now known as Gabriel-work 2015-07-10T18:35:04Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-10T18:36:50Z williamyao: fizixer: If you're not convinced, here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151284 2015-07-10T18:37:09Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T18:37:15Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:37:42Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T18:40:14Z lisper29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-10T18:40:46Z fizixer: williamyao: wow that looks awesome! 2015-07-10T18:40:50Z prphp_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:41:39Z remi`bd: a/quit 2015-07-10T18:41:41Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-10T18:41:44Z fizixer: though I'm wondering if it would be fair to say that non-macro lisp can let you embed DSLs but if you need to validate your DSLs macros or recommended for brevity? 2015-07-10T18:42:06Z fizixer: *macros are recommended 2015-07-10T18:42:11Z Gabriel-work: nyef: erm. so I can't read from the stream I've `open''d even though I can write to it, and the results from the device print to the minicom output? 2015-07-10T18:42:20Z Gabriel-work: does this ring any bells? 2015-07-10T18:42:40Z nyef: Why do you still have minicom open? 2015-07-10T18:43:07Z nyef: The port shouldn't lose its tty settings when you close minicom. 2015-07-10T18:43:14Z akkad: were lispms multiuser? 2015-07-10T18:43:20Z nyef: And at that point minicom won't be swiping your input. 2015-07-10T18:43:25Z Gabriel-work: well, I've closed it, but I ge the same thing 2015-07-10T18:43:31Z Gabriel-work: I can send to it - but it blocks 2015-07-10T18:43:40Z Gabriel-work: is this why stty? 2015-07-10T18:43:44Z nyef: Are you opening the file appropriately? 2015-07-10T18:43:59Z nyef: :direction :io 2015-07-10T18:44:08Z Gabriel-work: (open "/dev/ttyUSB1" :direction :io :if-exists :overwrite) 2015-07-10T18:44:13Z Gabriel-work: defparameter that 2015-07-10T18:44:17Z Gabriel-work: then write to it 2015-07-10T18:44:30Z prphp quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T18:44:39Z nyef: Hrm. Okay, you might also want an external-format or element-type on that. 2015-07-10T18:45:01Z Gabriel-work: and this would somehow effect my ability to read from it...? 2015-07-10T18:45:09Z Gabriel-work: I mean, sure, but why? 2015-07-10T18:45:28Z williamyao: fizixer: I don't think I can give a satisfactory general answer to that. Whether using pure functions or stepping into the realm of macros to create a DSL (after all, any sizeable program is a DSL; functions are simply abstractions for expressing your program as well) will depend very heavily on what you're trying to do. 2015-07-10T18:45:36Z nyef: Shouldn't affect the blockingness, but could affect the data stream if it's not entirely ascii data. 2015-07-10T18:48:01Z Gabriel-work: so I have nfi what I would feed in as those keyword arguments 2015-07-10T18:48:07Z Gabriel-work: (unsigned-byte 8)? 2015-07-10T18:48:11Z Gabriel-work: :ascii? 2015-07-10T18:48:15Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-10T18:48:24Z Gabriel-work: is there documentation I could read? 2015-07-10T18:50:05Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:50:23Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:51:21Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:52:18Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:53:06Z nyef: You'd override element-type if you wanted a binary stream. 2015-07-10T18:53:33Z nyef: You'd override external-format if you want a character stream and are dealing with non-ascii characters. 2015-07-10T18:53:42Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:54:09Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:54:17Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-10T18:54:20Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:54:22Z keen__________16 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T18:54:24Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-10T18:55:22Z nyef: Something you might try if you have two serial ports and a null modem cable is to connect one of the serial ports to the other, run a lisp test program on one side and minicom or another terminal emulator on the other. 2015-07-10T18:55:33Z nyef: Just to make sure that you have two-way communications going. 2015-07-10T18:55:43Z keen__________16 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T18:55:45Z nyef: Basically try to take any unknowns out of the equation. 2015-07-10T18:55:49Z Gabriel-work: hrm. 2015-07-10T18:55:52Z Gabriel-work: I don't have that 2015-07-10T18:56:02Z nyef: Which don't you have? 2015-07-10T18:56:04Z Gabriel-work: but it is sending databack to the minicom, so that much is working, no/ 2015-07-10T18:56:16Z Gabriel-work: I don't have a null modem cable 2015-07-10T18:56:35Z nyef: ... You know that if the data is going to minicom, it means that lisp can never see it, right? 2015-07-10T18:56:42Z fizixer: williamyao: makes sense. Thanks! 2015-07-10T18:56:50Z Gabriel-work: nyef: right 2015-07-10T18:56:58Z Gabriel-work: but that alone means it /is/ responding 2015-07-10T18:57:04Z Gabriel-work: but to where when minicom is dead? 2015-07-10T18:57:05Z nyef: Okay, fair point. 2015-07-10T18:57:33Z nyef: Then you need to be doing something on the lisp side to get the data, possibly in terms of STREAM-LISTEN. 2015-07-10T18:58:22Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:00:03Z Gabriel-work: What is weird is that when I originally setup the device I was able to read off of the stream twice 2015-07-10T19:00:09Z Gabriel-work: and then never again 2015-07-10T19:00:16Z otjura: is there more any other way to maintain scope in defun for variables except with let clause? 2015-07-10T19:00:27Z Gabriel-work: I suppose I could have accidentally hit a key in the minicom window... 2015-07-10T19:00:31Z zyoung_ is now known as zyoung 2015-07-10T19:00:35Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:01:06Z contrapunctus quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-10T19:01:10Z Bike: otjura: what do you want to do? 2015-07-10T19:01:12Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus 2015-07-10T19:01:39Z otjura: like if I defvar inside function, it leaks out. prevent that from happening. 2015-07-10T19:02:04Z williamyao: ...are you trying to create a dynamic variable inside a function? 2015-07-10T19:02:28Z shaman3s joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:02:46Z Bike: defvar does not bind lexical variables 2015-07-10T19:02:52Z jasom: otjura: you almost certainly don't want a defvar in a function 2015-07-10T19:02:58Z fizixer quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-10T19:04:17Z jasom: otjura: let, multiple-value-bind, destructuring-bind, loop, prog, lambda (and probably others) will all establish bindings inside a function 2015-07-10T19:04:46Z pgomes left #lisp 2015-07-10T19:05:14Z jasom: or outside a function for that matter 2015-07-10T19:05:54Z jasom: If it's the extra nesting that's bothering you, you can use aux parameters, but those are discouraged by most style guides 2015-07-10T19:06:26Z otjura: okay, thanks jasom 2015-07-10T19:07:14Z jasom: otjura: perhaps you could paste the code as you would do it with let, and tell us why you don't like let there? 2015-07-10T19:08:04Z shaman3s quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T19:10:09Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:10:15Z ggole quit 2015-07-10T19:10:15Z ahungry: Is there a way to have sbcl warn on unmatched types in user declared functions? For instance, (defun call-+ (a) (+ a "3")) will throw a warning, while (defun add (a b) (+ a b)), followed by a (defun call-add (a) (add a "3")) will not (even if using a (declare (number a) (number b)) in #'add 2015-07-10T19:10:21Z otjura: ahaha.. I'm just toying so don't take this so seriously http://pastebin.com/pzxYAEMj 2015-07-10T19:11:01Z otjura: but it actually does act weirdly in that both printed values of w are the same 2015-07-10T19:11:08Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T19:12:05Z ahungry: why wouldn't they be the same? 2015-07-10T19:12:19Z ahungry: your (- w y) would not modify your defvar 2015-07-10T19:12:43Z ahungry: maybe you thought you were doing a (decf w y)? 2015-07-10T19:13:02Z nyef: Gabriel-work: Sounds like you might need to reset things a bit. Close out minicom, close out your lisp stream, power-cycle the device you're trying to talk to, and then set up again. 2015-07-10T19:13:04Z otjura: ahungry: why not? that's highly unintuitive 2015-07-10T19:13:32Z williamyao: otjura: That statement is like kicking a hornet's nest :) 2015-07-10T19:13:54Z ahungry: In another language it would be equivalent to calling: int w = x * y; w - y; 2015-07-10T19:13:55Z williamyao: But more specifically, look at how you did (* x y); that's how these functions are supposed to be used 2015-07-10T19:14:09Z williamyao: Call them for return values, not for modifying state 2015-07-10T19:15:12Z otjura: ahungry: ah I see now 2015-07-10T19:15:28Z |3b|: ahungry: declare tells the compiler it is definitely that type, and anything that happens if it isn't is undefined (which might be signal an error or might be a crash) if you want type checking, use CHECK-TYPE 2015-07-10T19:16:19Z |3b|: if you don't get an error from adding "3" to something in SBCL, you should probably increase your safety settings though, since it should catch that 2015-07-10T19:16:43Z Gabriel-work: nyef: no dice. I'm checking out the relevent definitions of stream-listen to see if anything pops up 2015-07-10T19:17:17Z nyef: Gabriel-work: Okay, well, good luck. 2015-07-10T19:17:33Z Gabriel-work: neyf: real quickly - stty couldn't fix this could it? 2015-07-10T19:17:39Z nyef: Might be able to. 2015-07-10T19:17:43Z Gabriel-work: lolk 2015-07-10T19:17:48Z ahungry: |3b|: I tried changing the declare to check-type, it still doesn't warn when defining call-add as my call-+ one did though 2015-07-10T19:17:56Z nyef: Take a look at the stty output and see if anything seems obvious. 2015-07-10T19:17:59Z ahungry: How do you adjust sbcl safety to get a warn there 2015-07-10T19:18:00Z Gabriel-work: I read your notes, but it didn't point me to anything like a rationale for how these things work 2015-07-10T19:18:04Z Gabriel-work: hrm 2015-07-10T19:18:06Z |3b|: ahungry: can you make a paste with the full example? 2015-07-10T19:18:09Z ahungry: yes 2015-07-10T19:18:27Z |3b|: if you haven't been declaring/declaiming (safety 0) anywhere, it should catch it 2015-07-10T19:18:59Z nyef: Well, they wouldn't. They're MY notes, and I know a few things about how serial works in unix due to having read APUE (Stevens) a few times, among other things. 2015-07-10T19:19:12Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:19:44Z ahungry: This is what i'm referring to http://sprunge.us/WKcS 2015-07-10T19:19:46Z nyef: You might also try reading up on "termios", which is the API for doing stty type things. 2015-07-10T19:19:55Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T19:20:00Z |3b|: ahungry: (sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy) should tell you if something chganged safety globally 2015-07-10T19:20:04Z ahungry: SBCL warns of the asserted type being mismatched on a #'+ call, even if nested in a defun 2015-07-10T19:20:12Z ahungry: while my user defined can't get the same level of warning 2015-07-10T19:20:32Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:20:42Z |3b|: oh, you want a compile-time warning at the call site? 2015-07-10T19:20:46Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T19:20:46Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T19:21:28Z ahungry: Yea, I'm trying to figure out how to come up with some common lisp type safety (settings or custom macro/functions) equivalent, or close to type safety in a language like haskell 2015-07-10T19:21:32Z |3b|: i think a global ftype declaration might get that, though i'm not sure if that is a generally safe thing to do 2015-07-10T19:22:01Z otjura: well I modified (- w y) to (defvar w (- w y)) and it still doesn't change value of w 2015-07-10T19:22:24Z otjura: that's obviously after first introducing w two lines up 2015-07-10T19:22:27Z |3b|: you shouldn't be using defvar there 2015-07-10T19:22:28Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus 2015-07-10T19:22:34Z williamyao: Don't use defvar inside a function; it's for defining global variables only, essentially. 2015-07-10T19:22:35Z |3b|: use SETF to modify variables 2015-07-10T19:23:39Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T19:23:41Z ahungry: you can use defparameter multiple times to change your variable (or use it once then use setf), with defvar subsequent defvar calls do not modify your value 2015-07-10T19:24:01Z |3b|: don't use defparameter inside functions either (though it would at least change the value) 2015-07-10T19:24:03Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:24:11Z ahungry: (defvar *v* 1) => 1, (defvar *v* 2) => 1 2015-07-10T19:24:15Z ahungry: from the clhs http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 2015-07-10T19:24:20Z williamyao: otjura: I think this is what you're trying to do http://paste.lisp.org/display/151293 2015-07-10T19:24:52Z otjura: williamyao: I know, but I'm in "exploring language mode" currently 2015-07-10T19:24:57Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:25:24Z otjura: so lotsa stupid things going around and asking more whys than 5 year old child in zoo 2015-07-10T19:25:26Z jasom: otjura: part of how defvar works is it will not assign to the variable if the variable is already bound 2015-07-10T19:25:46Z andrew joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:25:51Z jasom: and you essentially never want to use defvar and defparameter inside a function 2015-07-10T19:25:54Z williamyao: Then I'd suggest reading the hyperspec. 2015-07-10T19:26:20Z andrew is now known as Petit_Dejeuner 2015-07-10T19:27:22Z |3b|: ahungry: yeah, a global ftype could cause problems at safety 0 or on other implementations, so not sure it would be a good solution unless you only care about sbcl 2015-07-10T19:28:44Z |3b|: i think you can tell also sbcl to derive function types automatically, which would probably be a bit easier (but still potentially cause problems if you change a function without recompiling call sites, which is why it doesn't do so by default) 2015-07-10T19:29:44Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:30:03Z nyef: Note that SBCL still tends to derive function types within a single file by default, which has caused problems for me at times. 2015-07-10T19:32:06Z jasom: nyef: notinline should fix that 2015-07-10T19:32:41Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-10T19:32:59Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:33:40Z nyef: jasom: Yes, but I shouldn't have to splatter NOTINLINE all over my file. 2015-07-10T19:34:39Z ahungry: declare ftype works when I add the line to my call-add function, but not when I have it directly in my #'add function, which wouldn't help as I want the type declaration in the function definition (or near it) 2015-07-10T19:34:54Z ahungry: how do you set the global ftype of a function? since declare can't be a top level form 2015-07-10T19:35:01Z dlowe: declaim 2015-07-10T19:35:02Z |3b|: declaim is global 2015-07-10T19:35:05Z ahungry: thanks 2015-07-10T19:35:18Z nyef: Or proclaim, but you'll usually want declaim. 2015-07-10T19:35:20Z dlowe: proclaim is... within the file? is that it? 2015-07-10T19:35:26Z dlowe: I can never remember 2015-07-10T19:35:29Z nyef: dlowe: proclaim is the function version. 2015-07-10T19:35:33Z |3b| would probably just look for the sbcl switch to derive them rather than typing out types by hand though 2015-07-10T19:35:48Z dlowe: ohhh. No wonder I got confused when I was starting out. 2015-07-10T19:35:58Z dlowe: Eventually I just learned "never touch proclaim" 2015-07-10T19:36:13Z |3b|: declaim ~= (eval-when ... proclaim) 2015-07-10T19:36:51Z nyef: ahungry: If you want to be really clever, and don't mind tying your program to SBCL, have a look at DEFOPTIMIZER (whatever DERIVE-TYPE). 2015-07-10T19:37:34Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:38:14Z jasom: nyef: C-c C-k keeps it from being a problem for me 2015-07-10T19:38:22Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T19:38:36Z nyef: jasom: I'm using (SETF FDEFINITION) in a test suite. It remains a problem for me. 2015-07-10T19:38:37Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T19:38:44Z jasom: ah 2015-07-10T19:38:45Z |3b|: ahungry: just remember that the type declarations probably make your program less safe than without them on other implementations, they might cause it to not even catch the errors at run-time 2015-07-10T19:38:56Z |3b|: (or in sbcl with (safety 0)) 2015-07-10T19:39:01Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:39:11Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T19:39:20Z jasom: nyef: I think asdf has a version of defun that is designed for when you want to allow redefinition 2015-07-10T19:39:48Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:40:49Z ahungry: hmm, could use a little syntactic sugar, but I think http://sprunge.us/OBPH is now what i'd expect for a 'type safe' lisp 2015-07-10T19:41:29Z eudoxia: heh 2015-07-10T19:41:50Z eudoxia: coincidentally the other day i thought about making a couple of macros to provide typed versions of defun, let, etc. 2015-07-10T19:42:12Z eudoxia: like (defun f ((x number) y (z string)) string ... ) 2015-07-10T19:42:21Z Gabriel-work: IMHO, replace defun with a macro that records the types passed to it 2015-07-10T19:42:25Z jasom: ahungry: now get it working with funcall and algebraic types 2015-07-10T19:42:49Z Gabriel-work: then run the program, and have a flag you can set to derive type annotations based on real life usage patterns 2015-07-10T19:43:18Z jasom: e.g. reduce that takes a vector specialized to type A and a function that takes arguments of type A and returns A 2015-07-10T19:43:23Z Gabriel-work: If I pass an int, int bool to a function 100% of the time, 1200k times, is that going to change? Idk, maybe 2015-07-10T19:43:37Z Gabriel-work: but you could use it as a starting point for a type inferencer 2015-07-10T19:43:58Z scymtym: ahungry: eudoxia: have a look at lparallel's src/util/defun.lisp 2015-07-10T19:44:04Z ahungry: surprisingly what I linked in sprunge does work with a funcall set up 2015-07-10T19:44:26Z jasom: ahungry: with a non-constant value for the function you are funcall-ing? 2015-07-10T19:44:39Z eudoxia: scymtym: cool 2015-07-10T19:44:57Z ahungry: just with (defun funcall-add (a) (funcall #'add "3" a)) 2015-07-10T19:45:09Z ahungry: it warns on the "3" 2015-07-10T19:45:43Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T19:45:47Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-10T19:45:55Z k-stz: is the order in which GETHASH iterates over value/keys in a hash-table the same in which the values where put into the hash-table (with GETHASH setfably) 2015-07-10T19:46:20Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-10T19:46:29Z k-stz: argh I meant MAPHASH iterates 2015-07-10T19:46:31Z dlowe: k-stz: no. the order is not dependable 2015-07-10T19:46:58Z k-stz: dlowe: I feared so, thanks 2015-07-10T19:47:19Z dlowe: k-stz: if you need that, I might recommend an alist 2015-07-10T19:48:40Z k-stz: it might be a performance issue, i'm thinking of an array, and the hashtable returns the indices to that array.. ? 2015-07-10T19:49:19Z k-stz: (aref *objects-to-render* (gethash :box *hash-table*)) 2015-07-10T19:49:47Z williamyao: You could just wrap a hashtable in a class of your own that keeps track of the keys and their order. 2015-07-10T19:50:36Z jasom: k-stz: or you could keep a vector or list of keys as they are inserted, and loop over that 2015-07-10T19:50:49Z peterhil joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:51:23Z k-stz: hey those are cool ideas 2015-07-10T19:51:28Z jasom: efficient tail-insertion takes a tiny bit more bookkeeping than using vector-push-extend, but either should work 2015-07-10T19:51:49Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T19:52:04Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:56:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:58:12Z ahungry: having a brain fart, what's the opposite of #'rest? All of a list but the last item 2015-07-10T19:59:02Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-10T19:59:09Z brpocock: #'butlast 2015-07-10T19:59:27Z oleo: jep 2015-07-10T19:59:30Z oleo: butlast 2015-07-10T19:59:44Z ahungry: thanks, new there was something better than reverse, cdr, reverse 2015-07-10T20:01:54Z contrapunctus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-07-10T20:02:53Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T20:03:27Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-10T20:04:48Z ahungry: Sweet this is pretty decent now http://sprunge.us/fbWN 2015-07-10T20:04:58Z ahungry: for the amount of time invested at least heh 2015-07-10T20:06:33Z Gabriel-work: new datapoint to anyone paying attention to my lisp listening woes - I can 'cat' the /dev/ttyUSBx file at the command line, send stuff to it from lisp, and open a new thread and constantly read from that, which works 2015-07-10T20:06:41Z DalekBaldwin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T20:06:43Z Gabriel-work: so... I guess I'll just do this for the time being 2015-07-10T20:08:53Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T20:09:17Z Gabriel-work: oh, I should have specified both of those work *seperately* 2015-07-10T20:11:08Z badkins_ is now known as badkins 2015-07-10T20:16:06Z Gabriel-work: oh, also, minicom was ON when I did this. 2015-07-10T20:17:00Z Gabriel-work: (to anyone who wonders why I'm dropping this all in the logs - the exact formula of magic strings to do this sort of thing + other's commentary might prove useful for perhaps unifying the knowledge into a library or at least a blog post) 2015-07-10T20:17:44Z nyef: This is bizarre. 2015-07-10T20:19:12Z ahungry: Sweet, with my defn macro and my glyphs project, I can now use this (ƒ→ add (number → number → number) α → (+ α αb)) to declare a type safe add function that gives WARN if someone doesnt call like (add 3 4) when in another function 2015-07-10T20:19:28Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-10T20:19:48Z ahungry: now to add clos type checking in there (assuming declaim ftype doesnt already handle) 2015-07-10T20:21:02Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-10T20:22:05Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-10T20:22:15Z ahungry: or a better one, (ƒ→ factorial (number → number) 0 → 1 α → (* α (factorial (1- α)))), with a warning if used like (defun epic-fail () (factorial "three")) 2015-07-10T20:22:38Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-10T20:25:51Z Guest54250 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T20:26:52Z akkad looks for anyone here who is attending the Balisp tomorrow 2015-07-10T20:27:32Z Gabriel-work quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-10T20:30:02Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-10T20:30:29Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-10T20:33:07Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T20:34:47Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T20:34:47Z victoroak joined #lisp 2015-07-10T20:34:56Z DalekBaldwin joined #lisp 2015-07-10T20:35:17Z prphp_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-10T20:35:28Z pjb: akkad: lisp machines were multi-user in a way. AIUI, there was still a single lisp image with all the code and all the files accessible by everybody, but there were user-specific packages. (defpackage "USER.AKKAD" (:use "ZETA-LISP")) (defpackage "USER.PJB" (:use "ZETA-LISP")) etc. 2015-07-10T20:36:27Z akkad: was there any security between users? or was it like RMS heaven? 2015-07-10T20:36:39Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-10T20:37:16Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T20:37:39Z pjb: No security. 2015-07-10T20:38:16Z victoroak quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-10T20:39:10Z akkad: k 2015-07-10T20:40:06Z Guest54250 left #lisp 2015-07-10T20:41:34Z ahungry: What are all the different types available to check-type? string, float, integer, number, what other ones? 2015-07-10T20:41:44Z ahungry: cons, symbol, and atom? 2015-07-10T20:41:49Z Shinmera: Any and all types? 2015-07-10T20:44:10Z |3b|: all CL types 2015-07-10T20:44:30Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-10T20:44:46Z |3b|: clhs 4.3.2 2015-07-10T20:44:46Z specbot: Defining Classes: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_cb.htm 2015-07-10T20:44:59Z |3b|: clhs 4.2.3 2015-07-10T20:44:59Z specbot: Type Specifiers: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_bc.htm 2015-07-10T20:45:05Z |3b|: yeah, that one ^ 2015-07-10T20:45:34Z gabriel_laddel: hrm, so it turns out minicom was still eating my outup 2015-07-10T20:45:36Z gabriel_laddel: *output 2015-07-10T20:45:40Z gabriel_laddel: just very little of it 2015-07-10T20:45:44Z akkad: that clhs comes with an ide which has a shortcut key to docs 2015-07-10T20:45:49Z gabriel_laddel: so you'd get *most* of a message coming from cat 2015-07-10T20:46:36Z nyef: gabriel_laddel: Again, why the hell do you have minicom still running when you're trying to consume the output via some other mechanism? 2015-07-10T20:46:45Z nyef: gabriel_laddel: Stop doing that. 2015-07-10T20:47:59Z gabriel_laddel: because it doesn't work without it? 2015-07-10T20:48:06Z gabriel_laddel: and the stty commands I tried didn't make it work? 2015-07-10T20:48:20Z gabriel_laddel: but yes, after lunch 2015-07-10T20:48:43Z gabriel_laddel: I shall try and see about getting it work without minicom 2015-07-10T20:50:00Z pjb: otjura: there's a reason why you don't want to use defvar and defparameter inside a function. Do you know the reason? 2015-07-10T20:50:24Z |3b|: ahungry: in particular you can include any predicate in a type passed to CHECK-TYPE with (SATISFIES some-predicate) 2015-07-10T20:50:28Z nyef: As I said, the changes that minicom makes to the port in terms of stty should "stick" even after minicom closes. 2015-07-10T20:50:54Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T20:51:04Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-10T20:52:27Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-10T20:53:42Z ahungry: thanks guys 2015-07-10T20:53:42Z |3b|: for example (check-type x (and integer (satisfies evenp) (satisfies primep))) is a silly way to verify X is 2 (assuming you defined a working PRIMEP) 2015-07-10T20:54:07Z ahungry: thats pretty cool 2015-07-10T20:54:40Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-10T20:55:05Z jsnell_ is now known as jsnell 2015-07-10T20:55:20Z |3b|: (though sbcl can't figure out it means that, so at best would generate code for x being an INTEGER, rather than having that specific value) 2015-07-10T20:55:41Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T20:55:52Z badkins quit 2015-07-10T21:00:32Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-10T21:01:14Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-10T21:01:50Z otjura: pjb: not really aside that they declare global variables 2015-07-10T21:01:50Z minion: otjura, memo from pjb: It's because defvar and defparameter declaim the variable name special. Therefore any function loaded or compiled before you CALL the function containing the defvar or defparameter will believe any reference or binding to that variable is a lexical reference or binding. The compiler will warn when you refer such free variables. 2015-07-10T21:01:50Z minion: otjura, memo from pjb: And worse, AFTER you've declared it special by defvar or defparameter (or using explicitely declaim or proclaim in your function which you wouldn't do either in general), the same symbol now is know as a special variable and therefore will get in new functions, or newly compiled function, dynamic binding and global value, so it won't be a free variable anymore. 2015-07-10T21:01:50Z minion: otjura, memo from pjb: This is also because of this special declaration of the symbol naming variables in defvar and defparameter, that we use the earmuff convention, naming such variables *X* instead of X. 2015-07-10T21:02:03Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-10T21:16:33Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-10T21:19:47Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T21:21:57Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T21:26:05Z dougk_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T21:28:26Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T21:33:02Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-10T21:35:27Z duggiefresh quit 2015-07-10T21:35:59Z ceryo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-10T21:37:31Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T21:38:35Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-10T21:39:02Z pjb: ahungry: what would (factorial #C(1 2)) do? 2015-07-10T21:39:26Z pjb: ahungry: (typep #C(1 2) 'number) --> t 2015-07-10T21:40:04Z pjb: ahungry: I'm sorry to say, but IMO, useless. 2015-07-10T21:40:25Z |3b|: not useless, just not as useful as it could be 2015-07-10T21:41:12Z |3b|: and maybe his factorial is extended to complex numbers ;) 2015-07-10T21:41:34Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-10T21:41:54Z pjb: |3b|: my point: this is what his types said, but not his implementation! 2015-07-10T21:44:45Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-10T21:44:49Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-10T21:49:00Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-10T22:03:59Z monod quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2015-07-10T22:08:35Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T22:09:14Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-10T22:15:40Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-10T22:17:57Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-10T22:18:07Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-10T22:23:04Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-10T22:25:15Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-10T22:25:44Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-10T22:26:17Z Rptx joined #lisp 2015-07-10T22:27:37Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-10T22:28:03Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-10T22:29:09Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-10T22:30:59Z magical-imouto is now known as ninja-maid-robot 2015-07-10T22:34:40Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-07-10T22:35:32Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-10T22:37:52Z IPmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-10T22:39:12Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - 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Check the documentation of your inferior-lisp program. 2015-07-11T01:24:24Z pyon is now known as magical-imouto 2015-07-11T01:25:22Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T01:26:30Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T01:28:43Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T01:29:02Z axion quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0) 2015-07-11T01:29:14Z axion joined #lisp 2015-07-11T01:29:34Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T01:30:09Z zRecursive left #lisp 2015-07-11T01:31:07Z drl: pjb, thanks. What does this mean: "/home/l/sbcl-core: 1: /home/l/sbcl-core: LCBSl-l-2015-06-18-04-15-52j@: not found" 2015-07-11T01:32:27Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-07-11T01:33:58Z nyef: What on earth...? 2015-07-11T01:34:51Z nyef: That's a core header and build ID. What the heck are you doing?!? 2015-07-11T01:35:17Z nyef: What did you set as your inferior-lisp-program? 2015-07-11T01:35:31Z pjb: chmod 755 /home/l/sbcl-core perhaps? 2015-07-11T01:35:48Z Walex2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T01:37:09Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-07-11T01:37:10Z nyef: Even that shouldn't be enough, surely? 2015-07-11T01:37:28Z nyef: I could understand it happening with "sh sbcl.core", though. 2015-07-11T01:37:43Z drl: nyef, (setq inferior-lisp-program "/home/l/sbcl-core") 2015-07-11T01:37:57Z nyef: I was afraid of that. 2015-07-11T01:38:04Z nyef: The core file is not directly executable. 2015-07-11T01:38:14Z nyef: There's a separate "sbcl" program that goes with it and loads the core image. 2015-07-11T01:39:25Z drl: So, a name clash? I should name my core something else? 2015-07-11T01:39:49Z pjb: No, you should run sbcl, like everybody else. 2015-07-11T01:42:37Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-11T01:42:47Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T01:42:53Z pjb: (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl --core /home/l/sbcl-core") ; for example. 2015-07-11T01:45:56Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-11T01:47:33Z Guest42 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T01:48:24Z drl: pjb, thanks. that solved my problem. 2015-07-11T01:49:36Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-11T01:50:25Z pjb: drl: alternatively, instead of saving a sbcl core, you could save an executable image. 2015-07-11T01:50:52Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-11T01:50:59Z pjb: Adding :executable t to your sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die call. 2015-07-11T01:52:50Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T01:56:47Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-11T02:03:46Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T02:04:06Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:04:55Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T02:05:54Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T02:06:30Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T02:06:37Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T02:07:54Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:07:59Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:09:27Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:09:29Z Guthur: with SBCL; with a stream is better to read large chunks and then subseq, or smaller more discrete chunks 2015-07-11T02:09:39Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:10:03Z Guthur: the stream has discrete size prepended sub sequences 2015-07-11T02:10:23Z Guthur: but i know total length before processing 2015-07-11T02:10:46Z nyef: This sounds like an opportunity for you to practice writing microbenchmarks. 2015-07-11T02:12:34Z Guthur: nyef: hehe, i was afraid something like that might be said 2015-07-11T02:12:36Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:13:14Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-11T02:14:29Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:14:50Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:14:57Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-11T02:17:44Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:19:13Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-11T02:21:00Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:21:08Z gabriel_laddel: bonjour 2015-07-11T02:22:05Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T02:24:50Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:25:33Z Guest42 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-11T02:27:47Z |3b| wonders if the (set of) cffi extension protocol is fixable without breaking backwards compatibility (or even at all) 2015-07-11T02:29:00Z |3b|: or how many people would care about incompatible changes 2015-07-11T02:31:46Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:32:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-11T02:32:37Z nyef: backwards compatibility... with uffi? 2015-07-11T02:32:50Z |3b|: with the existing uses of the protocol 2015-07-11T02:33:27Z |3b|: which are probably broken in some edge cases, but presumably not edge cases that matter to the users 2015-07-11T02:35:27Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:35:33Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:38:34Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T02:39:14Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:45:24Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T02:45:46Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T02:47:28Z theos: Good morning 2015-07-11T02:47:45Z beach: Hello theos. 2015-07-11T02:49:32Z smith_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:50:16Z theos: its raining and all i can think of is how can i apply CL to rains! 2015-07-11T02:55:36Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:58:01Z pyx joined #lisp 2015-07-11T02:58:07Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T03:00:14Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:02:20Z drl: pjb, thanks. I'll try that too. 2015-07-11T03:05:03Z Rptx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-11T03:05:17Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:05:43Z synergy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:06:16Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-11T03:06:34Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T03:07:31Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:09:18Z synergy_: What's a good book/reading on lisp to learn about the mechanics of the language? I've been reading through Practical Common Lisp, but so far hasn't been very helpful in learning *about* how the language works so much as it has how to use it. Say for example, when the #' macro was introduced, I had no idea it was a macro, and at this point still didn't know what a macro was. 2015-07-11T03:09:18Z minion: synergy_, memo from pjb: use the with-functions macro from http://paste.lisp.org/display/144269 2015-07-11T03:09:18Z minion: synergy_, memo from pjb: that's because that book was written by a programmer who was used of a precursor language to Common Lisp, where there was no CL:LAMBDA macro, so they had to write (function (lambda (…) …)) all the time. But now in CL, CL:LAMBDA is a macro that examands to (function (lambda (…) …)) so we don't need to write the FUNCTION, we can just write (lambda (…) …). 2015-07-11T03:10:05Z synergy_: ? 2015-07-11T03:11:36Z kristof: synergy_: Does Peter Siebel not explain what reader macros are? 2015-07-11T03:11:49Z muyinliu_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:11:53Z Fare: What's the offering in terms of interactive (soft real time) music software programmable in lisp (need not be Common Lisp)? 2015-07-11T03:12:11Z williamyao: IIRC, he doesn't ever introduce them. Certainly never mentions SET-MACRO-CHARACTER et al 2015-07-11T03:13:57Z cosmicexplorer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T03:13:57Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:14:15Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-11T03:14:27Z synergy_: I think it's discussed briefly in chapter 4 2015-07-11T03:14:40Z synergy_: Any suggestions though? 2015-07-11T03:15:02Z williamyao: If you're willing to dive in, there's always CLTL or the ANSI spec. 2015-07-11T03:17:15Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T03:18:31Z synergy_: For CLTL, it seems to focus on CL from the perspective of someone that already knows Standard Lisp. Should I start there instead? 2015-07-11T03:19:03Z williamyao: I'm not really sure what you mean by 'mechanics,' to be honest. 2015-07-11T03:19:12Z theos: synergy_ read ANSI CL by paul graham :P for macros, read ON LISP and then Let Over Lambda 2015-07-11T03:21:29Z beach: Fare: OpenMusic 2015-07-11T03:21:51Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:22:57Z Fare: beach: yes, I'm trying to run jack so I may run openmusic 2015-07-11T03:23:00Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-11T03:23:19Z Fare has a patch for named-readtables to run on the latest CCL, btw. 2015-07-11T03:23:37Z beach: synergy_: If you are interested in how the language works internally, I recommend Lisp in Small Pieces. There is very little written about the history of the language though, such as *when* certain constructs where introduced. 2015-07-11T03:24:31Z synergy_: Thanks for the suggestions everyone 2015-07-11T03:24:53Z beach: Fare: Furthermore, I think pjb is (or at least was) working on some aspects of OpenMusic, so he could give you advice in case you need to do something a bit more complicated. 2015-07-11T03:25:10Z hrr4 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:25:40Z beach: synergy_: The best thing to do would be to ask here for specific cases, and then we might be able to suggest something more precise. 2015-07-11T03:26:09Z synergy_: Ok, I'll be sure to do so 2015-07-11T03:26:43Z Fare: JackServer::Open failed with -1 2015-07-11T03:28:09Z beach: Fare: I have never been able to run any kind of music software on Linux. I always have problems like that. Very disappointing, really. 2015-07-11T03:28:28Z Fare: ubuntu seems keen on restarting pulseaudio when I kill it — maybe that's why jackd can't start? 2015-07-11T03:29:55Z muyinliu quit 2015-07-11T03:33:30Z pjb: synergy_: so you already have half a dozen books to read. I say, let's keep it simple, just go read the clhs! Ok, you'll need to read it two or three times, but it's a single book! 2015-07-11T03:35:32Z Fare: pjb: have you used openmusic or another interactive music environment in lisp (not necessarily CL) ? 2015-07-11T03:36:27Z pjb: I've got the sources of openmusic around, but I'm actually working on another application, Patchwork. 2015-07-11T03:37:04Z mechanical joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:37:50Z hrr4` joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:38:00Z Fare: is it interactive? 2015-07-11T03:38:04Z Fare: is it free softwaer? 2015-07-11T03:38:11Z Fare: can you actually run it? 2015-07-11T03:38:15Z pjb: I don't have a jack configuration running. I tried several years ago. I'm just happy that debian 7 is able to configure pulse so I can use mplayer and youtube in firefox. 2015-07-11T03:38:27Z Fare: :-/ 2015-07-11T03:38:39Z Fare: no jack, so you can't actually run openmusic, right? 2015-07-11T03:39:11Z pjb: Patchwork should be interactive eventually, taking and producing MIDI. (but it usually works in batch). 2015-07-11T03:39:36Z pjb: No, I've not tried to run openmusic for several years now. 2015-07-11T03:39:39Z Fare googles his way to this page: https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/WalkThrough_User_PulseOnJack 2015-07-11T03:40:10Z Fare: I'm looking for an interactive system that will let me "autotune" the accompaniement to my songs 2015-07-11T03:40:56Z Fare: i.e. it plays to the rhythm and nuances I interactively specify somehow (touch pad? touch screen? midi? whatever), but otherwise always plays the correct notes. 2015-07-11T03:41:27Z pjb: Fare: have you seen http://incudine.sourceforge.net/ ? 2015-07-11T03:41:31Z hrr4 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T03:42:18Z pjb: I just learned of it today, not tried yet, but it seems quite the thing. 2015-07-11T03:43:42Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T03:43:43Z hrr4`` joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:43:56Z hrr4` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T03:44:18Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-11T03:46:15Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T03:46:35Z Fare: I hadn't 2015-07-11T03:47:46Z Fare: looks interesting 2015-07-11T03:50:17Z Fare: also wants jack 2015-07-11T03:51:54Z syrinx joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:53:03Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:53:20Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-11T03:54:23Z pjb: Yes, it's the basis required by all serious musical application on linux. 2015-07-11T03:55:31Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T03:55:42Z nyef: Hence why jack isn't available by default anywhere, nor is it particularly easy to get running? 2015-07-11T03:58:02Z Fare: I'll kill my X server, in the hope of being able to start jack while pulseaudio isn't running... ttyl 2015-07-11T03:58:03Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:58:41Z beach: drmeister: Around? 2015-07-11T03:58:51Z drmeister: Hi beach - yes. 2015-07-11T03:58:52Z smith_: Hi guys, another newbie question here: are there any tutorial for usocket for an absolute beginner in socket programming? 2015-07-11T03:58:59Z cluck quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T03:59:05Z drmeister: I'm still working on testing your changes. 2015-07-11T03:59:18Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-11T03:59:37Z pjb: smith_: http://www.amazon.com/UNIX-Network-Programming-Richard-Stevens/dp/0139498761 http://www.unixnetworkprogramming.com/ 2015-07-11T03:59:37Z beach: drmeister: I believe I fixed the problem that stassats told me about yesterday with (macrolet ((bla ((&key index)))) ...) 2015-07-11T03:59:46Z drmeister: Excellent. 2015-07-11T04:00:12Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-07-11T04:00:37Z smith_: pjb: thanks, buddy 2015-07-11T04:01:27Z beach: drmeister: No rush with the test. Just wanted to let you know about the fix. 2015-07-11T04:02:12Z Fare quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T04:03:11Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T04:03:59Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-11T04:05:37Z Fare: wonderful: (1) lightdm the display manager also insists on respawning pulseaudio (2) even when I kill -STOP lightdm so it doesn't autorespawn the evil daemon, jackd fails to start because nts access to the X server (!) 2015-07-11T04:06:35Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-07-11T04:07:48Z SAL9000: Fare: try putting some garbage into the pulseaudio config file... although that might result in a respawn loop. 2015-07-11T04:11:12Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-11T04:12:15Z Fare learns incidentally via http://jackaudio.org/faq/pulseaudio_and_jack.html that if I cat /proc/asound/cards I get the names of my cards, and there's no hw:0 only a hw:PCH 2015-07-11T04:12:19Z Fare: and hw:HDMI 2015-07-11T04:13:07Z learnit quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T04:15:42Z Fare: of course, that's only enough information to get to the next error message... 2015-07-11T04:16:17Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T04:16:21Z SAL9000: are you trying to get JACK to connect to Pulse? 2015-07-11T04:16:53Z Fare: I'm trying to get JACK to connect at all 2015-07-11T04:17:16Z Fare: latest error is jack failing to access a non-existent /tmp/dbus-CEtYqtGOgx 2015-07-11T04:17:37Z SAL9000: do you have a dbus session running? 2015-07-11T04:18:46Z SAL9000: if not, you might need to change your x11 session file to 'exec dbus-launch --exit-with-session /usr/bin/your-window-manager' 2015-07-11T04:19:06Z Fare: due to my reusing the same screen after killing X 2015-07-11T04:19:52Z SAL9000: I'm reasonably sure that killing X should kill lightdm and thus everything gets reset, including dbus 2015-07-11T04:20:49Z Fare: yay, after copy/pasting the DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS from a new konsole tab to the screen, I could start jackd (as a user) and mplayer -ao jack ....mp3 works 2015-07-11T04:21:04Z SAL9000: :) 2015-07-11T04:24:26Z Fare: now to try openmusic, incudine, etc... 2015-07-11T04:25:49Z learnit joined #lisp 2015-07-11T04:27:37Z Guthur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T04:28:04Z Fare: wonderful: openmusic wants me to apt-get install libportmidi0:i386 whereas incudine wants me to incompatibly apt-get install libportmidi0 2015-07-11T04:28:47Z Fare: now to install a chroot? my, software sucks 2015-07-11T04:29:16Z tmtwd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T04:29:33Z pjb: Why do you complain? libportmidi0 is actively maintained! 2015-07-11T04:30:23Z pjb: Fare: but is it not a 32-bit vs. 64-bit question? Probably you can install both at the same time. 2015-07-11T04:33:09Z Fare: not using plain ubuntu packages 2015-07-11T04:33:50Z drmeister: Is anyone aware that ECL (and Clasp) doesn't work with UIOP:SUBDIRECTORIES if the subdirectories names have mixed case? 2015-07-11T04:35:13Z drmeister: Well, it doesn't appear to work on OS X. 2015-07-11T04:35:33Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-07-11T04:35:46Z synergy_: I'm just starting to see how useful "code as data" is in lisp. I read a function that would generate predicate functions for a function that runs multiple tests on data. That's so cool 2015-07-11T04:35:54Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T04:35:58Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-11T04:36:06Z drmeister: I have a directory: /usr/local/lib/ecl-13.5.1/Talks (notice the mixed case of the last directory name) 2015-07-11T04:36:28Z drmeister: (translate-logical-pathname #P"SYS:Talks") --> "/usr/local/lib/ecl-13.5.1/talks" 2015-07-11T04:36:50Z drmeister: The case of the last name has changed. 2015-07-11T04:37:32Z drmeister: That breaks UIOP:SUBDIRECTORIES 2015-07-11T04:37:44Z drmeister: This has taken me hours to track down (sigh) 2015-07-11T04:38:01Z drmeister: beach: And that's another half-shaved yak in my backyard. 2015-07-11T04:38:11Z beach: drmeister: :( 2015-07-11T04:38:45Z beach: synergy_: This is only the beginning. 2015-07-11T04:39:16Z drmeister: I can't use UIOP:SUBDIRECTORIES to crawl through the sicl subdirectories (mixed case breaks UIOP:SUBDIRECTORIES) to push them into asdf:*central-repository* 2015-07-11T04:39:41Z drmeister: Does anyone have any ideas how to get around this? 2015-07-11T04:39:50Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T04:40:22Z Bike: fix translate-logical-pathname? it doesn't have to ignore case, doesn't it? 2015-07-11T04:40:38Z Bike: failing that, use the newer asdf configuration, which has a recursive subdirectory search thingie 2015-07-11T04:40:52Z synergy_: beach{ Seriously. That's something I find the lack of such in other programming languages to be a bit hindering. Especially when trying to learn functional programming in javascript. 2015-07-11T04:42:41Z beach: synergy_: I believe you. 2015-07-11T04:43:01Z muyinliu: exit 2015-07-11T04:43:08Z muyinliu quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-11T04:43:26Z synergy_: beach{ The more I learn about lisp, the more interesting it gets 2015-07-11T04:44:20Z muyinliu_: how to use cffi in Windows systems? 2015-07-11T04:45:45Z beach sees a "so how come Lisp is not more popular?" coming. 2015-07-11T04:47:18Z Fare finds the next error... openmusic crashing after querying for the name of a workspace to create. 2015-07-11T04:47:35Z Fare: muyinliu_, you mean MS Windows ? 2015-07-11T04:47:55Z Fare: drmeister, why does mixed case break uiop:subdirectories ? 2015-07-11T04:48:37Z Fare: oh, I see, you're using logical pathnames. 2015-07-11T04:48:46Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2a4eJFEI/ 2015-07-11T04:48:52Z drmeister: Line 19. 2015-07-11T04:48:53Z Fare: There's an easy solution: don't, EVER, use so called "logical pathnames". 2015-07-11T04:49:05Z drmeister: (truename* u) != (truename* f) because of differences in case 2015-07-11T04:49:25Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T04:49:29Z drmeister: Really? 2015-07-11T04:49:34Z Fare: really 2015-07-11T04:49:39Z muyinliu_: Fare, yes, I want to get Disk Space in Common Lisp on Windows XP/7/8. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/27585874/how-to-get-disk-space-used-free-total-in-common-lisp/28357017#28357017 2015-07-11T04:49:43Z drmeister: I was about to fix Common Lisp pathnames. 2015-07-11T04:50:19Z Fare: I might be one of the few guys who got software to work portably with logical pathnames (namely, asdf), and it's hell, for no benefit whatsoever. 2015-07-11T04:50:44Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-11T04:50:50Z Fare: that said, uiop is accepting patches 2015-07-11T04:51:34Z muyinliu_: Fare, the project cl-diskspace I wrote is only support Mac/Linux 2015-07-11T04:52:23Z drmeister: Fare: That did the trick. 2015-07-11T04:52:38Z drmeister: (uiop:subdirectories (translate-logical-pathname #P"sys:kernel;contrib;sicl;")) --> A bunch of directories 2015-07-11T04:53:04Z drmeister: (uiop:subdirectories #P"sys:kernel;contrib;sicl;") --> A whole lot of nuthin' 2015-07-11T04:53:05Z Fare: muyinliu_, are you using cffi on mac/linux ? 2015-07-11T04:54:05Z Fare: drmeister, you could try to relax the way uiop restricts directory on logical pathnames, at least for clasp 2015-07-11T04:55:07Z muyinliu_: Fare, yes 2015-07-11T04:55:10Z Fare: the restrictions are there to make the code work portably. From one implementation to the other, it gets really wild 2015-07-11T04:55:32Z Fare: muyinliu_, I suppose that on linux and mac, you can rely on the compiler being installed 2015-07-11T04:55:50Z Fare: not completely true on a mac, but true enough for developers who use a mac 2015-07-11T04:56:00Z Fare: even less true for windows, though 2015-07-11T04:56:28Z Fare: and then you need to identify the same compiler that was used for the CL implementation. 2015-07-11T04:56:50Z Fare: Ideally, you'd do it all statically, and would deliver a standalone binary, though. 2015-07-11T04:57:55Z muyinliu_: was there example that use cffi in Common Lisp on Windows system? 2015-07-11T04:58:10Z muyinliu_ is now known as muyinliu 2015-07-11T04:58:39Z Fare: muyinliu_, I suppose the same examples would work, mostly — if you somehow have the correct compiler configured in your path 2015-07-11T05:00:07Z Fare: I also STRONGLY recommend against logical pathnames in the asdf:*central-registry* 2015-07-11T05:00:17Z Fare: ASDF goes through heroics to support it 2015-07-11T05:00:30Z Fare: but even heroics can only do so much 2015-07-11T05:00:58Z Fare: Actually, I recommend finding every line of program on earth that uses logical pathnames, and deleting it. 2015-07-11T05:02:44Z Fare: muyinliu, now, if you can get the answer by running an external utility, run-program can save the day 2015-07-11T05:03:15Z Fare: it's not elegant, at all, but it gets the job done 2015-07-11T05:04:51Z drmeister: This is a general ASDF question (I don't want to bug you with ASDF questions Fare). 2015-07-11T05:05:14Z drmeister: I need to configure ASDF to load systems in a local directory hierarchy. 2015-07-11T05:05:16Z Fare: That's appropriate: I'm General ASDF. 2015-07-11T05:05:20Z Fare: Or Admiral. 2015-07-11T05:05:29Z Fare: Or something. 2015-07-11T05:05:31Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-11T05:05:51Z drmeister: I was thinking of using (require :asdf) and then following it with (load "sys:local-asdf-config.lisp") 2015-07-11T05:06:29Z drmeister: That LOAD would load a program that would recursively crawl down the directories under #P"SYS:" and push them into asdf:*central-repository*. 2015-07-11T05:06:33Z drmeister: Is there a better way? 2015-07-11T05:08:04Z muyinliu: Fare, run-program is a solution. But I just want to know how to call Windows API GetDiskFreeSpaceEx with cffi. I can't find any example like calling Windows API with cffi. Which compiler is require? 2015-07-11T05:08:37Z Fare: muyinliu, the compiler used to compile your lisp 2015-07-11T05:09:57Z muyinliu: Fare, I use SBCL, but only the binary from sbcl.org, I don't know how to compile SBCL from source code. 2015-07-11T05:10:07Z Fare: VC++ or MinGW or cygwin gcc or whatever else was used. 2015-07-11T05:10:21Z Fare: sbcl was probably built with mingw 2015-07-11T05:11:00Z Fare: there are recipes around for statically compiling a sbcl with code from cffi extensions 2015-07-11T05:11:21Z Fare: but they haven't been productized and integrated into cffi and asdf 2015-07-11T05:12:07Z Fare: if you do it, what more, portably, that could go a long way to providing a delivery mechanism for CL applications that require C extensions. 2015-07-11T05:16:49Z muyinliu: Fare, GetDiskFreeSpaceEx is included in C:/WINDOWS/system32/kernel32.dll 2015-07-11T05:17:51Z muyinliu: Fare, but don't know how to call it. 2015-07-11T05:17:51Z Fare: muyinliu: you may or may not need a cffi-wrapper 2015-07-11T05:18:29Z Fare: just because it's probably C++, and CFFI probably wants a C wrapper. 2015-07-11T05:18:44Z Fare: now, if you used CLASP... 2015-07-11T05:19:28Z Fare: although, what happened to https://common-lisp.net/project/fetter/ and other such C++ interfaces for CL ? 2015-07-11T05:19:50Z drmeister: beach: Are you still online? 2015-07-11T05:20:09Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda () (block nil (let ((form (block in (let (*) (return-from in nil)) (return-from nil nil)))) form))) :debug t) 2015-07-11T05:20:19Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T05:20:29Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/0pg7wxen/mir.pdf 2015-07-11T05:20:34Z drmeister: It works. 2015-07-11T05:20:53Z |3b|: muyinliu: define a foreign library for that dll, then defcfun (using the full name GetDiskFreeSpaceExW or ...A) and call it as in linux 2015-07-11T05:20:54Z drmeister: The bad Fetch is gone. 2015-07-11T05:21:15Z beach: drmeister: I am. 2015-07-11T05:21:31Z beach: drmeister: Great! 2015-07-11T05:21:32Z Fare: |3b|: aren't there C vs C++ issues? 2015-07-11T05:21:55Z |3b|: not for C APIs (which most of windows is as far as i know) 2015-07-11T05:22:07Z muyinliu: |3b|, Here is the code I wrote: 2015-07-11T05:22:09Z muyinliu: (in-package :cl-diskspace) 2015-07-11T05:22:09Z muyinliu: (define-foreign-library kernel32 2015-07-11T05:22:10Z muyinliu: (:windows "C:/WINDOWS/system32/kernel32.dll")) 2015-07-11T05:22:10Z muyinliu: (use-foreign-library kernel32) 2015-07-11T05:22:12Z muyinliu: ;; BOOL WINAPI GetDiskFreeSpaceEx( 2015-07-11T05:22:12Z muyinliu: ;; _In_opt_ LPCTSTR lpDirectoryName, 2015-07-11T05:22:13Z Fare: oh, somehow I thought it was all C++ 2015-07-11T05:22:14Z muyinliu: ;; _Out_opt_ PULARGE_INTEGER lpFreeBytesAvailable, 2015-07-11T05:22:14Z muyinliu: ;; _Out_opt_ PULARGE_INTEGER lpTotalNumberOfBytes, 2015-07-11T05:22:16Z muyinliu: ;; _Out_opt_ PULARGE_INTEGER lpTotalNumberOfFreeBytes 2015-07-11T05:22:16Z muyinliu: ;; ); 2015-07-11T05:22:18Z muyinliu: (defcfun ("GetDiskFreeSpaceEx" %GetDiskFreeSpaceEx) 2015-07-11T05:22:18Z muyinliu: :boolean 2015-07-11T05:22:19Z beach: muyinliu: Stop that. 2015-07-11T05:22:20Z muyinliu: (lpDirectoryName :string) 2015-07-11T05:22:20Z drmeister: Gah! No pasting! 2015-07-11T05:22:20Z muyinliu: (lpFreeBytesAvailable :pointer) 2015-07-11T05:22:22Z muyinliu: (lpTotalNumberOfBytes :pointer) 2015-07-11T05:22:22Z muyinliu: (lpTotalNumberOfFreeBytes :pointer)) 2015-07-11T05:22:33Z beach: minion: Please tell muyinliu about lisppaste. 2015-07-11T05:22:33Z minion: muyinliu: look at lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 2015-07-11T05:23:09Z muyinliu: Sorry... 2015-07-11T05:23:35Z |3b|: muyinliu: http://paste.lisp.org/+38S5 2015-07-11T05:23:56Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-11T05:24:01Z |3b|: (don't use that code directly, use the correct types and such) 2015-07-11T05:25:17Z |3b|: windows functions that take strings tend to be macros that expand to same thing with W or A at the end (unicode vs ascii), so you need to add that by hand when making bindings 2015-07-11T05:25:22Z drmeister: beach: Was there anything else that you wanted me to test? 2015-07-11T05:25:41Z beach: drmeister: Actually, I have no idea what you are up to these days (with respect to Clasp). You seem to be working on several things: pathnames, copy constructors, compilation speed, fixnum arithmetic, etc, etc. 2015-07-11T05:25:55Z drmeister: Yeah - it's nutty. 2015-07-11T05:26:08Z |3b|: and thinking about it, my definition probably should have used ...A since oi think ...W takes utf16 not utf8. not really sure about that either though 2015-07-11T05:26:12Z beach: drmeister: I didn't mean that. 2015-07-11T05:26:25Z drmeister: No, I do - it's nutty. :-) 2015-07-11T05:26:54Z drmeister: I was referring more to that other thing that you fixed. 2015-07-11T05:27:25Z drmeister: (macrolet ((bla ((&key index)))) ...) 2015-07-11T05:27:26Z |3b|: muyinliu: looks like you had it mostly right aside from that, and don't specify a path for system libraries 2015-07-11T05:27:33Z beach: drmeister: Don't worry about it. I guess I'll hear more if other things break. 2015-07-11T05:27:35Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-11T05:27:56Z beach: drmeister: I was able to test that one myself here. 2015-07-11T05:28:01Z drmeister: Ok. 2015-07-11T05:28:03Z beach: drmeister: So you have fixnum arithmetic working, right? 2015-07-11T05:28:40Z drmeister: Addition, subtraction and comparison. 2015-07-11T05:28:49Z beach: Good enough. 2015-07-11T05:28:50Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T05:29:37Z beach: drmeister: I'll get back to source tracking and type inference then. 2015-07-11T05:30:17Z drmeister: I'll be able to tell you tomorrow if Slime works now with cclasp. 2015-07-11T05:30:25Z beach: Oh, OK. 2015-07-11T05:30:55Z ofosos joined #lisp 2015-07-11T05:32:51Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-11T05:32:59Z Fare: /home/tunes/cl/THIRDPARTY/incudine/src/libincudine.so: undefined symbol: XInitThreads. 2015-07-11T05:33:12Z Fare: so, incudine won't link :-( 2015-07-11T05:33:51Z synergy_: Is there a way to print a function's actual code rather than something like #<FUNCTION (LAMBDA (CD)) {100577346B}>? 2015-07-11T05:34:10Z Bike: synergy_: disassemble 2015-07-11T05:34:20Z beach: synergy_: Not portably. You can try: 2015-07-11T05:34:49Z beach: clhs f-l-e 2015-07-11T05:34:49Z specbot: function-lambda-expression: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm 2015-07-11T05:35:38Z beach: synergy_: Commercial Common Lisp vendors would not be happy if you could always do that. 2015-07-11T05:37:07Z Fare: the function is in libX11 2015-07-11T05:38:41Z synergy_: Weird, it only printed out the function name and parameters 2015-07-11T05:38:55Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-11T05:39:29Z beach: synergy_: Since commercial Common Lisp vendors would not be happy if it always printed the source code, the standard does not require the source code to be kept and displayed. 2015-07-11T05:39:41Z beach: synergy_: So it is not weird at all. 2015-07-11T05:39:42Z synergy_: I see 2015-07-11T05:40:18Z synergy_: Well then what's a common way of checking code generated by your program from a function? 2015-07-11T05:40:46Z beach: synergy_: I don't understand the question. 2015-07-11T05:41:48Z synergy_: beach{ Say I have a function that generates a lambda, how can I see what that lambda turned out like and if it was made correctly by the function if it's not guaranteed that I would be able to get it returned from the repl 2015-07-11T05:42:16Z Bike: you mean, it returns a closure? or an actual lambda form? 2015-07-11T05:42:41Z beach: synergy_: Why do you type "{" after my handle? 2015-07-11T05:42:45Z synergy_: A closure 2015-07-11T05:43:00Z Bike: well then the code is just lexically there in the function. 2015-07-11T05:43:19Z Bike: all the closure does is define some variables' values, no big 2015-07-11T05:44:20Z beach: synergy_: If you have a function such as (defun ff (...) (lambda (...) ...)) then the code is (lambda (...) ...) as Bike says. 2015-07-11T05:44:42Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-11T05:45:12Z synergy_: beach{ But instead of (lambda ...) it's `#'(lambda ...) 2015-07-11T05:45:24Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-07-11T05:45:32Z beach: Same thing (sort of). 2015-07-11T05:45:45Z beach: synergy_: Why do you type "{" after my handle? 2015-07-11T05:45:59Z theos: he wrote a closure to address you? 2015-07-11T05:46:17Z Bike: synergy_: hang on, then you're returning a lambda form, not a function. it's quoted. 2015-07-11T05:46:39Z beach: Oh, indeed. 2015-07-11T05:46:47Z synergy_: Bike{ Quoted or unquoted, same result for me though 2015-07-11T05:46:58Z theos: ^^ 2015-07-11T05:47:02Z beach: synergy_: Why do you type a "{" after people's handle? 2015-07-11T05:47:03Z muyinliu: |3b|, the SBCL says: Couldn't execute "gcc", should I install gcc using MinGW? or Cygwin? 2015-07-11T05:47:06Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T05:47:09Z cosmicexplorer joined #lisp 2015-07-11T05:47:27Z |3b|: muyinliu: what were you doing when it said that? 2015-07-11T05:47:31Z beach: synergy_: OK, this is the time where we ask the standard question: What is is that you *really* want to do? 2015-07-11T05:47:40Z |3b| wouldn't expect normal cffi use to require gcc 2015-07-11T05:48:19Z Bike: synergy_: they're different (defun foo () '(lambda ())), (type-of (foo)) => CONS, (defun bar () (lambda ())), (type-of (bar)) => FUNCTION 2015-07-11T05:48:31Z muyinliu: |3b|: when I load project cl-diskspace with quicklisp 2015-07-11T05:48:59Z synergy_: Bike{ Wait, why is that? 2015-07-11T05:49:01Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T05:49:11Z beach: synergy_: Why do you type a "{" after people's handle? 2015-07-11T05:49:22Z synergy_: beach{ And it's just something I did when I verified this account 2015-07-11T05:49:28Z Bike: cos one's quoted and one ain't, like i said, and yes that { thing is slightly annoying but ignoring someone asking you about it is more annoying 2015-07-11T05:49:36Z |3b|: muyinliu: yeah, don't load the grovel stuff on windows 2015-07-11T05:50:04Z muyinliu: |3b|: why? NOT support? 2015-07-11T05:50:05Z beach: synergy_: Account? What account? 2015-07-11T05:50:13Z synergy_: Bike{ I was trying to answer, but I wanted to address questions about the problem itself because you all asked both questions around the same time 2015-07-11T05:50:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T05:50:38Z synergy_: beach{ For irc 2015-07-11T05:50:42Z |3b|: muyinliu: groveller calls c compiler to figure out details of C ABIs, but for a single simple function like that you don't need it 2015-07-11T05:50:45Z beach: synergy_: Will you please stop typing an open curly brace after people's handles and use colon ":" instead? 2015-07-11T05:50:52Z theos: i think he means he replaced the , with a { 2015-07-11T05:51:18Z synergy_: beach: Alright. 2015-07-11T05:51:30Z beach: synergy_: You are breaking the highlighting of people handles when you do that. 2015-07-11T05:51:54Z |3b|: muyinliu: groveller works on windows, but you have to install a c compiler, which most windows users won't have (and even fewer with gcc) 2015-07-11T05:52:05Z beach: synergy_: OK so back to your programming question. What is it that you are trying to do? 2015-07-11T05:52:09Z synergy_: beach: Ahh, ok I knew a few clients that highlighted if the name was present at all. Sorry about that 2015-07-11T05:52:34Z theos: synergy_ go to settings>preferences>interface>input box> nick completion suffix= : 2015-07-11T05:52:41Z eazar_fsm_addict joined #lisp 2015-07-11T05:53:51Z synergy_: beach: I have a macro that returns a lambda. I'd like to be able to print this lambda to verify its correctness since parts of it are generated by the macro 2015-07-11T05:54:14Z Bike: use macroexpand-1 2015-07-11T05:54:33Z synergy_: clhs macroexpand 2015-07-11T05:54:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm 2015-07-11T05:56:44Z synergy_: Bike: Expanding it wasn't the problem, the same #<FUNCTION (LAMBDA (CD)) {100577346B}> was returned. 2015-07-11T05:57:10Z Bike: could you paste some code? i think your macro is wrong, among other things 2015-07-11T05:57:17Z beach: synergy_: Then you are doing something wrong. 2015-07-11T05:57:28Z beach: synergy_: You should return a lambda expression, not a function. 2015-07-11T05:57:59Z beach: synergy_: Because after the macro gets expanded, the resulting code is evaluated, turning the lambda expression into a function. 2015-07-11T05:58:21Z synergy_: Sure, I'm going to test one more thing beforehand 2015-07-11T05:58:59Z beach: synergy_: For example: (defmacro mac (x) `(lambda (y) (+ ,x y))) 2015-07-11T05:59:07Z muyinliu: |3b|: OK, then how to fix these code? repo: https://github.com/muyinliu/cl-diskspace-dev.git 2015-07-11T06:00:08Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-07-11T06:00:29Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-11T06:00:52Z Bike: which gives (mac 4) => #<FUNCTION (LAMBDA (Y))>, (macroexpand-1 '(mac 4)) => (LAMBDA (Y) (+ 4 Y)) 2015-07-11T06:01:43Z |3b|: muyinliu: just define that LARGE_INTEGER type by hand 2015-07-11T06:01:57Z synergy_: Ah, ok. I hadn't quoted the macro invocation. I'm getting a proper return now 2015-07-11T06:02:43Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-11T06:02:47Z beach: synergy_: What do you mean by "quoted the macro invocation"? 2015-07-11T06:02:50Z drmeister: beach: I'm getting some kind of infinite loop with EVAL 2015-07-11T06:03:00Z muyinliu: |3b|: yeah... I don't know how to define LARGE_INTEGER... 2015-07-11T06:03:16Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ehSkmotS/ 2015-07-11T06:03:36Z synergy_: Resembling (macroexpand-1 (mac 4)) instead of (macroexpand-1 '(mac 4)) 2015-07-11T06:03:51Z beach: synergy_: That is not a macro invocation. 2015-07-11T06:03:54Z drmeister: Investigating... 2015-07-11T06:03:57Z |3b|: muyinliu: easiest is just use a 64bit int, not sure if cffi supports that on every possible platform or not though 2015-07-11T06:04:08Z beach: synergy_: That is a form passed as argument to macroexpand-1. 2015-07-11T06:05:03Z drmeister: It's compilation of the first macro. 2015-07-11T06:05:26Z muyinliu: |3b|: could you help me to fix the code? and I will test it on platforms 2015-07-11T06:05:27Z beach: drmeister: Could this just be a case where you call the compiler recursively inside EVAL and it generates a similar form to evaluate again. 2015-07-11T06:06:03Z synergy_: beach: Independent of whether or not it was quoted? Without the quote, why would it not be considered an invocation? 2015-07-11T06:06:04Z beach: drmeister: Are you saying this phenomenon has been triggered by some recent change I made? 2015-07-11T06:06:30Z beach: synergy_: You are right. Without the quote, it is invoking the macro. Which, as you pointed out, you don't want. 2015-07-11T06:07:10Z beach: synergy_: With the quote, it is just data, so it is a form to pass to macroexpand-1. 2015-07-11T06:07:31Z synergy_: beach: Ok, just wanted to make sure that I wasn't misunderstanding anything 2015-07-11T06:08:13Z drmeister: beach: No. I was just grasping for straws. You've made a bunch of changes, I've made a bunch of changes... I have no idea what the problem is at this point. 2015-07-11T06:08:56Z synergy_: Ohh, and if it were to be invoked (i.e. omitting the quote) macroexpand would be passed the result of invoking the macro instead. Hence the unwanted printing. Is that right? 2015-07-11T06:09:07Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-11T06:09:09Z beach: synergy_: Exactly. 2015-07-11T06:10:27Z synergy_: beach: Alright. There's a lot of nuances I have to understand in lisp I'm guessing 2015-07-11T06:10:59Z beach: synergy_: This one is pretty simple though. MACROEXPAND-1 is a function, so its arguments are evaluated before the function is invoked. 2015-07-11T06:11:48Z synergy_: I was referring more so to the general printing of different forms 2015-07-11T06:12:09Z learnit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T06:12:11Z beach: OK. 2015-07-11T06:12:27Z mechanical quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T06:13:26Z synergy_: Thanks for the help beach and Bike. Also, apologies for hindering your ease of use with the "{" 2015-07-11T06:13:39Z drmeister: beach: I have a small test case. COMPILE-FILE of a trivial macro throws it into an infinite loop - I'll track it down. 2015-07-11T06:14:50Z Bike: np 2015-07-11T06:16:36Z beach: synergy_: Yes, no problem. And good luck to you. 2015-07-11T06:16:45Z beach: drmeister: OK, keep me posted. 2015-07-11T06:19:39Z synergy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T06:21:02Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-11T06:22:11Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-11T06:28:00Z |3b|: muyinliu: just use :long-long for ULARGE_INTEGER is the best i can suggest at the moment 2015-07-11T06:28:27Z |3b|: if it doesn't work for someone, maybe they will send a patch :) 2015-07-11T06:28:37Z Shinmera: Good morning, #lisp. 2015-07-11T06:29:09Z |3b|: maybe someone else might have better ideas though 2015-07-11T06:29:29Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-11T06:29:51Z beach: Hello Shinmera. 2015-07-11T06:32:28Z mea-culpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T06:35:49Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-07-11T06:39:25Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T06:43:18Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-07-11T06:45:02Z theos: guten tag 2015-07-11T06:45:03Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. 2015-07-11T06:51:43Z Shinmera: beach: You can now get the chatlogs in a pre-rendered plain-text format if you add the query parameter format=rendered. http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/api/chatlog/get?server=freenode&channel=lisp&format=rendered 2015-07-11T06:52:12Z beach: Excellent! Thank you very much. 2015-07-11T06:52:29Z beach: Now I can use my ordinary tools on it much more easily. 2015-07-11T06:52:46Z Shinmera: I think I messed up the time region selection in the process though, hold on. 2015-07-11T06:54:20Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T06:56:05Z Shinmera: Ah- no I didn't. I had just configured too small a standard limit for the amount of messages. 2015-07-11T06:56:53Z drmeister: beach: Do you have a moment? 2015-07-11T06:57:26Z beach: I do, yes. 2015-07-11T06:57:31Z beach: Shinmera: I'll check it later. 2015-07-11T06:57:55Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T06:58:21Z Shinmera: beach: should be all fine now. 2015-07-11T06:58:44Z drmeister: So it's evaluating this: (COMMON-LISP:FUNCTION (COMMON-LISP:LAMBDA (#:G1786 #:G1785 COMMON-LISP:&AUX (#:G1787 (COMMON-LISP:CDR (EXT:TRULY-THE COMMON-LISP:CONS #:G1786 ) ) ) ) (COMMON-LISP:DECLARE (COMMON-LISP:IGNORABLE #:G1787 #:G1786 ) (CORE:LAMBDA-NAME FOO ) ) (COMMON-LISP:DECLARE (COMMON-LISP:IGNORE #:G1785 ) ) (COMMON-LISP:BLOCK FOO 2015-07-11T06:58:44Z drmeister: (COMMON-LISP:IF #:G1787 (CORE::DM-TOO-MANY-ARGUMENTS #:G1786 ) ) ) ) ) 2015-07-11T06:58:46Z beach: Shinmera: I still have to figure out exactly what to type to get what I want. I'll do that later. 2015-07-11T06:59:15Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-11T06:59:19Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-11T06:59:56Z drmeister: This is the CCLASP-EVAL that we wrote a couple of days ago: 2015-07-11T06:59:58Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151364 2015-07-11T07:00:13Z Shinmera: beach: Sure. The query parameters are `from` and `to`, which accept either unix timestamps or iso-8601-timestamps. 2015-07-11T07:00:56Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, I can see those in the browser, so I think I can figure it out. Otherwise, I will ask. 2015-07-11T07:01:08Z drmeister: On line 34 is where it goes when given (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...)) 2015-07-11T07:01:18Z Shinmera: beach: Alright. 2015-07-11T07:01:22Z Shinmera is off to breakfast 2015-07-11T07:01:37Z learnit joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:01:49Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:02:01Z hrr4`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T07:02:15Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:02:19Z drmeister: Then it immediately calls EVAL-COMPILE which calls cclasp-compile-in-env with (LAMBDA () (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...))) 2015-07-11T07:03:54Z drmeister: Then it does some compilation and then it calls CCLASP-EVAL with the form above wrapped in another (FUNCTION ....) 2015-07-11T07:04:06Z drmeister: and it goes into an infinite loop like that. 2015-07-11T07:04:45Z drmeister: I should just pack it in for the day - I can't think straight. 2015-07-11T07:05:14Z beach: drmeister: OK. 2015-07-11T07:06:03Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T07:06:23Z beach: drmeister: It doesn't look like a problem that is due to any of my latest fixes. 2015-07-11T07:07:06Z beach: drmeister: You need to figure out what the FORMS of the TOP-LEVEL-ENTER-INSTRUCTION look like when this form is compiled and why they look like that. 2015-07-11T07:07:29Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:07:46Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:07:52Z drmeister: Why TOP-LEVEL-ENTER-INSTRUCTION? 2015-07-11T07:08:14Z beach: That's where the forms are located. Those that are passed to EVAL. 2015-07-11T07:08:53Z beach: drmeister: Are you sure you want to compile the entire form in this case? 2015-07-11T07:09:06Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T07:09:43Z beach: Never mind my last remark. 2015-07-11T07:09:51Z drmeister: I'm not sure. stassats wrote the body of the eval - I wrote the environment handling stuff. 2015-07-11T07:10:09Z drmeister: I have to think really hard what I want (FUNCTION ...) to do. 2015-07-11T07:10:20Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-11T07:10:32Z drmeister: I want it to return a closure. 2015-07-11T07:11:08Z beach: Anyway, the FORMS of the TOP-LEVEL-ENTER-INSTRUCTION are passed to EVAL so it must be the case that compiling this form results in a form that is even more complicated than the original one. 2015-07-11T07:11:54Z beach: drmeister: Also, you can probably simplify the test input a lot. 2015-07-11T07:12:36Z drmeister: It's doing (FUNCTION (lambda () (foo))) --> (lambda () (FUNCTION (lambda () (foo)))) --> (function (lambda () (FUNCTION (lambda () (foo))))) ... 2015-07-11T07:12:54Z beach: Yeah, that's better. 2015-07-11T07:13:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:13:54Z bertro quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-11T07:14:29Z cheryllium quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T07:16:45Z drmeister: I'm making an even simpler case. 2015-07-11T07:17:04Z drmeister: I thought we had this eval working. 2015-07-11T07:18:02Z beach: Look at the HIR and look at the forms of the TOP-LEVEL-ENTER-INSTRUCTION. This will give you a clue as to what is going on. 2015-07-11T07:18:14Z beach: The HIR should be pretty simple. 2015-07-11T07:19:08Z beach: For what it's worth, it compiles fine here, so I don't think my latest fixes caused this. 2015-07-11T07:20:54Z ofosos quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-11T07:21:53Z eliasbagley joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:22:20Z alladia_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T07:23:12Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:24:13Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:27:13Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T07:28:15Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:28:15Z voidlily quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T07:30:21Z beach: drmeister: Do you have anything else for me to look at? 2015-07-11T07:30:33Z drmeister: No - not now. 2015-07-11T07:31:47Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-11T07:34:43Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:34:47Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T07:36:12Z drmeister: beach: I have a minimal case 2015-07-11T07:36:17Z drmeister: (EVAL-WHEN (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL :load-toplevel) #'(LAMBDA () )) --> infinite loop 2015-07-11T07:36:29Z drmeister: (EVAL-WHEN (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL ) #'(LAMBDA () )) --> No infinite loop 2015-07-11T07:36:46Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:36:52Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:36:54Z RussT1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T07:38:08Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T07:38:48Z beach: And this happens when you compile it? 2015-07-11T07:38:54Z Zhivago quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-11T07:39:00Z beach: Using the file compiler? 2015-07-11T07:39:55Z beach: Or when you load it? 2015-07-11T07:40:03Z beach: Or when you call EVAL with it? 2015-07-11T07:40:50Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:41:45Z drmeister: When I COMPILE-FILE it with Cleavir 2015-07-11T07:42:46Z beach: drmeister: What about the different compilation phases? Does it convert it to AST? To HIR? 2015-07-11T07:43:42Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T07:44:04Z beach: drmeister: I don't have a COMPILE-FILE written, so I can't test it here easily. 2015-07-11T07:44:21Z drmeister: It doesn't appear to be getting out of generate-ast 2015-07-11T07:44:22Z beach: Maybe I should write myself one, just so that I can use it for testing. 2015-07-11T07:45:11Z beach: drmeister: OK. So it calls EVAL from generate-ast. With what arguments? 2015-07-11T07:45:57Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T07:46:31Z drmeister: These are the arguments: 2015-07-11T07:46:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/vxI72EmV/ 2015-07-11T07:46:36Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T07:47:58Z beach: Presumably, those arguments are then immediately used to call GENERATE-AST again. 2015-07-11T07:48:03Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:48:11Z beach: This time, without the EVAL-WHEN. 2015-07-11T07:48:22Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T07:48:51Z drmeister: It's this function that is calling EVAL in the infinite loop: 2015-07-11T07:48:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1Ed5HCsZ/ 2015-07-11T07:49:06Z drmeister: So remove the EVAL-WHEN? 2015-07-11T07:49:20Z beach: No. 2015-07-11T07:49:56Z beach: Er, hold on... 2015-07-11T07:52:11Z beach: It could be that *compile-time-too* is never bound to false. 2015-07-11T07:52:26Z alladia joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:52:27Z beach: But if so, I wonder why we have never seen this problem before. 2015-07-11T07:53:15Z drmeister: Yeah, I thought this EVAL was working a couple of days ago 2015-07-11T07:53:58Z beach: You may want to try to bind *compile-time-too* to NIL in GENERATE-AST. 2015-07-11T07:54:25Z drmeister: Before I call GENERATE-AST? Or hack Cleavir? 2015-07-11T07:54:32Z beach: the latter. 2015-07-11T07:54:35Z beach: See if it works. 2015-07-11T07:54:55Z beach: I am still puzzled as to why we have never seen this before. 2015-07-11T07:55:17Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2t3aO45R/ 2015-07-11T07:55:38Z drmeister: In here? 2015-07-11T07:55:48Z beach: yeah. 2015-07-11T07:56:00Z beach: Add another binding to the LET 2015-07-11T07:56:00Z eazar_fsm_addict quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-11T07:56:20Z drmeister: Like this: 2015-07-11T07:56:22Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Yy1dPofH/ 2015-07-11T07:56:26Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:56:28Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-11T07:57:15Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-11T07:58:31Z beach: I definitely need to write myself some version of compile-file. 2015-07-11T07:59:18Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-11T07:59:42Z drmeister: It still does it. 2015-07-11T07:59:55Z drmeister: Trying again to ensure I didn't screw something up 2015-07-11T08:00:21Z drmeister: Didn't save changes to generate-ast.lisp 2015-07-11T08:00:23Z drmeister: Trying again 2015-07-11T08:00:28Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T08:00:58Z beach: I make stupid mistakes like that when I am tired. I guess we all do. 2015-07-11T08:01:42Z beach: I still can't figure out how on earth this could possibly have worked in the past. 2015-07-11T08:01:43Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:03:41Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:04:10Z drmeister: Ok, that works for the test case. 2015-07-11T08:04:44Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T08:04:54Z drmeister: I can compile this now: (defmacro foo () ) 2015-07-11T08:05:22Z cosmicexplorer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T08:05:51Z drmeister: This seems to work. 2015-07-11T08:05:56Z beach: Good. 2015-07-11T08:06:10Z beach: Thinking about it, I think I have a clue as to why it worked in the past. 2015-07-11T08:06:19Z drmeister: I'll start compiling cclasp and see what happens. It takes about 15 min to get to the first macro 2015-07-11T08:06:24Z drmeister: What is it? 2015-07-11T08:06:33Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:06:39Z beach: I think I always tested *compiler* at the same time before calling EVAL. 2015-07-11T08:06:48Z beach: I omitted that test this time. 2015-07-11T08:07:16Z beach: I need to make up my mind about the exact meaning of these variables. 2015-07-11T08:07:51Z beach: It would, of course, help if I could test it myself. 2015-07-11T08:08:15Z drmeister: Yeah, the meaning of things eventually catches up with me as well. 2015-07-11T08:08:55Z drmeister: Would you be able to push those changes - or should I run with what I have? 2015-07-11T08:09:14Z beach: I can do it. Give me a few minutes... 2015-07-11T08:09:21Z drmeister: No problem. 2015-07-11T08:11:09Z psy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T08:11:35Z beach: Pushed. 2015-07-11T08:12:49Z pjb: drmeister: do use logical pathnames. But #P"SYS:Talks" IS NOT a logical pathname. Logical pathnames components are specified to contains only uppercase standard characters, digit standard characters and minus signs. 2015-07-11T08:13:14Z beach: I guess I can write myself a compile-file that generates Common Lisp code from HIR into a file and then calls the host compiler on that file. I would then have to write a version of LOAD that first calls the host LOAD and then executes some function in the current first-class global environment. 2015-07-11T08:13:17Z drmeister: pjb: Thanks 2015-07-11T08:13:43Z pjb: drmeister: you should write: #P"SYS:TALKS;" use the semicolon since it's a directory!, and have a translation to map that to the physical pathname #P"/some/path/to/Talks/". 2015-07-11T08:13:46Z cosmicexplorer joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:14:27Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-11T08:14:29Z beach: Such a COMPILE-FILE would also speed up my bootstrapping process. 2015-07-11T08:14:50Z pjb: drmeister: now of course, you can extend the CL language to make namestrings such as "SYS:Talks" map to some physical pathname meaningful enough for your implementation. 2015-07-11T08:15:28Z pjb: But I'm not sure less strictness would be good in the pathname domain, the situation is already complex enough… 2015-07-11T08:15:49Z learnit quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 38.0.5/20150525141253]) 2015-07-11T08:16:02Z pjb: People are very confused about pathnames because of such extensions provided (and mostly undocumented!) by implementations. 2015-07-11T08:16:48Z ynchromeshs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-11T08:17:45Z pjb: drmeister: also, notice that on MacOSX, you can have case sensitive file systems. (and remember that as a unix system, you can mix case sensitivity and case insensitivity in a given pathname, so it make sense to to make truenames differning only for the case, to be different! 2015-07-11T08:18:05Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:18:35Z drmeister: How do you mix case sensitivity and case insensitivity in a given pathname on unix? 2015-07-11T08:20:24Z muyinliu_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:21:28Z pjb: mount -t msdos /dev/disk2s1 /Volumes/ 2015-07-11T08:22:04Z pjb: mount -t msdos /dev/disk2s1 /Volumes/MsDosFileSystem ; mount -t HFS+ /dev/disk3s1 /Volumes/MsDosFileSystem/CASESENS 2015-07-11T08:22:28Z pjb: /Volumes/MsDosFileSystem may be or may be not case sensitive (depending on the case sensitivity of the root file system. 2015-07-11T08:22:49Z pjb: /Volumes/MsDosFileSystem/CASESENS being on a MS-DOS file system is not case sensitive. 2015-07-11T08:23:07Z pjb: /Volumes/MsDosFileSystem/CASESENS/SomeFile being on a case sentive file system is case sensitive. 2015-07-11T08:23:30Z pjb: Namely, the case sensitivity property is a property of the component, not of the pathname. 2015-07-11T08:23:40Z pjb: Unfortunately this is not a notion that is directly available to CL. 2015-07-11T08:24:03Z pjb: But you may be able to implement it correctly in a CL implementation. 2015-07-11T08:25:14Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-11T08:26:10Z ggole: That's a property of the filesystem, rather than of the path 2015-07-11T08:26:12Z pjb: Notice that CL programs should use make-pathname and merge-pathnames WITH defaults, and since defaults are a runtime value, it may be a physical pathname or a logical pathname default, therefore building physical or logical pathnames. You may then delete and not delete those lines at the same time. 2015-07-11T08:26:50Z drmeister: Macros compile now 2015-07-11T08:27:00Z drmeister: beach^ 2015-07-11T08:27:01Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:27:05Z pjb: ggole: indeed. And then, this can be correctly taken into account only for truenames, since pathnames can denote pathnames that are not mounted yet! 2015-07-11T08:27:18Z ggole: Right. 2015-07-11T08:27:45Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T08:27:45Z beach: drmeister: Great! 2015-07-11T08:27:53Z drmeister: Thank you 2015-07-11T08:28:06Z beach: Pleasure. 2015-07-11T08:34:36Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:36:32Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T08:36:48Z pjb: drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/+38SP 2015-07-11T08:38:04Z pocket quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T08:38:48Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T08:40:43Z drmeister: Yeah, that was what I was looking for all day. 2015-07-11T08:41:04Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:41:28Z drmeister: Shinmera gave me a nice little script that worked with UIOP - I used that but I got a little hung up when I used logical pathnames. 2015-07-11T08:44:20Z pjb: muyinliu: You don't necessarily need CFFI to call Foreign functions. If you use ccl on MS-Windows, you have access to a number of MS-Windows API thru the ccl reader macro #_; for example, once I called: (#_GetACP) directly in ccl. 2015-07-11T08:44:42Z arquebus joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:45:09Z muyinliu: pjb: like MCL on Mac? 2015-07-11T08:47:15Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:50:30Z muyinliu_ quit 2015-07-11T08:51:05Z eazar_fsm_addict joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:51:11Z arquebus quit (Quit: konversation disconnects) 2015-07-11T08:54:16Z eazar_fsm_addict is now known as gen_eazar001 2015-07-11T08:55:17Z sfa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T08:55:17Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-11T08:55:40Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:55:44Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:55:51Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-11T08:56:19Z luis joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:57:03Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-11T08:57:09Z rvchangu- quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-11T08:58:24Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-11T08:58:27Z eli quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-11T08:59:42Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:02:27Z pjb: muyinliu: yes. 2015-07-11T09:02:56Z sfa joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:04:02Z muyinliu: pjb: Thanks. I just eval (#_GetDiskFreeSpaceEx "C:\") in CCL on Windows XP, but got "Error: Foreign function not found: WIN32::|GetDiskFreeSpaceEx|" 2015-07-11T09:04:21Z pjb: So there. Then you will have to load some dll I guess. 2015-07-11T09:04:46Z muyinliu: pjb: OK, how to load dll in CCL? 2015-07-11T09:04:47Z pjb: muyinliu: check http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter13.12.html 2015-07-11T09:05:16Z gen_eazar001 is now known as eazarlang_001 2015-07-11T09:05:33Z pjb: I would do something like: (ccl:open-shared-library #P"c:/…/….dll") 2015-07-11T09:07:42Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T09:10:53Z muyinliu: pjb: someone said GetDiskFreeSpaceEx is contained by c:/windows/system32/kernel32.dll, after eval (ccl:open-shared-library "c:/windows/system32/kernel32.dll") with no error, still get the same error output while eval (#_GetDiskFreeSpaceEx "C:/") 2015-07-11T09:12:21Z syrinx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T09:14:15Z pjb: Some more work will be needed… 2015-07-11T09:14:24Z muyinliu: pjb: Emacs contains these code like: http://web.mit.edu/Emacs/source/emacs/src/w32fns.c 2015-07-11T09:15:11Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:16:07Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T09:16:38Z pjb: Well, clearly, you've not read the advice of |3b|. 2015-07-11T09:16:54Z pjb: Why are you still after the inexistant function GetDiskFreeSpaceEx? 2015-07-11T09:17:43Z pgomes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T09:19:36Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T09:20:55Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:30:30Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:33:31Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T09:35:00Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:35:03Z muyinliu: pjb: could you tell me why "Error: Foreign function not found: WIN32::|GetDiskFreeSpaceEx|"? 2015-07-11T09:35:32Z muyinliu: pjb: GetDiskFreeSpaceEx is definitely contained by kernel32.dll 2015-07-11T09:35:38Z ghost_runner joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:36:29Z ghost_runner: for learning lisp, which book is recommend (for someone who can only read one at a time): SICP or PAIP? if the latter, where can i read it online? thanks, guys. :) 2015-07-11T09:36:40Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:36:48Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:38:34Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-11T09:38:46Z H4ns: ghost_runner: sicp is a book that teaches programming using scheme, not lisp. paip is not available online. 2015-07-11T09:40:30Z ghost_runner: which would you recommend. if necessary, i'm willing to by PAIP (if it's better than SICP; if not, i'll use SICP to learn the scheme dialect). 2015-07-11T09:40:35Z ghost_runner: *? 2015-07-11T09:41:47Z pjb: ghost_runner: sicp teaches you programming, not scheme. To learn scheme you will have to read something else. 2015-07-11T09:42:04Z pjb: ghost_runner: people have read sicp doing the exercises in Common Lisp, and other programming language, even C++ !!! 2015-07-11T09:42:14Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:42:55Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:43:51Z muyinliu: pjb: I evall (#_GetDiskFreeSpaceExA "c:/"), error output become: Missing arguments in (WIN32::|GetDiskFreeSpaceExA| "c:/"), as https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa364937(v=vs.85).aspx as GetDiskFreeSpaceExA require 4 arguments... how to fix this? 2015-07-11T09:44:04Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:44:04Z pjb: Give it four arguments. 2015-07-11T09:44:05Z ghost_runner: pjb: hmm... well then; that's an eye-opener (i thought it used scheme to teach programming). what's recommended for a novice interested in lisp programming then? will SICP still do or are there better options? 2015-07-11T09:44:37Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:44:38Z remi`bd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T09:44:39Z pjb: muyinliu: notice, those arguments are probably pointers to the results, so you will have to allocate memory. 2015-07-11T09:45:47Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-11T09:46:52Z Guthur: is there a list of all the destructive functions in CL? 2015-07-11T09:47:04Z ghost_runner: pjb: will learning a CL or another lisp be easier and better in the long run than learning something like c, java or c++ first, in your opinion? 2015-07-11T09:47:12Z pjb: Yes. 2015-07-11T09:47:32Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:47:36Z pjb: And yes, as a first programming language, learning Lisp would definitely be better. 2015-07-11T09:47:46Z pjb: Then you can learn assembler, or C. 2015-07-11T09:49:51Z ghost_runner: pjb: was your first yes to "will SICP still do" or guthur? 2015-07-11T09:50:10Z pjb: ghost_runner: it was to sicp. 2015-07-11T09:50:41Z ghost_runner: ah, okay. :) 2015-07-11T09:50:56Z ghost_runner: thanks for the answers. 2015-07-11T09:51:29Z Guthur: ghost_runner: Lisp is a great language to learn about many of the advanced features of high level programming languages; first class functions, meta programming, a great OO system in CLOS (CL), as well as just programming in general 2015-07-11T09:52:14Z Guthur: as well usually having a great interactive development support 2015-07-11T09:53:59Z ghost_runner: is it something i can continuously use as a favorite language (since i intend to learn it first), like the python community does python? like, do most of you guys in here use lisp for most of your programming needs or do you all use in conjunction with other languages, due to it being older and all? 2015-07-11T09:55:11Z pjb: ghost_runner: no, we only use it for five minutes, after Sunday mass. Then we quickly go back to C++. 2015-07-11T09:55:20Z Guthur: I have predominately used Lisp as my professional language for the last ~3 years 2015-07-11T09:55:22Z pjb: And spend all week on #lisp. 2015-07-11T09:56:19Z jackdaniel: bots doesn't count ;) 2015-07-11T09:56:26Z jackdaniel is an AI 2015-07-11T09:56:39Z jackdaniel: with admiteddly bad english :p 2015-07-11T09:57:00Z bertro joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:58:42Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:59:05Z ghost_runner: how old were you guys when you learned to program or learned lisp even, if you don't mind me asking? 2015-07-11T09:59:05Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T09:59:33Z pjb: 11 and 24 2015-07-11T10:00:06Z pjb: Well, I was interested in computing before 11, but I had access to a computer only then. 2015-07-11T10:00:14Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-11T10:01:09Z ghost_runner: ah, your first language wasn't a lisp :/ 2015-07-11T10:01:10Z jackdaniel started extensively use lisp 3 years ago - was 23 2015-07-11T10:01:38Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-07-11T10:01:51Z pjb: Unfortunately, no. They would have had a hard time implementing a lisp for 8 users on 4 Kw RAM and 128 KB hard disk. 2015-07-11T10:02:44Z pjb: The original LISP ran batch on 32 Kw RAM and tapes and punched cards (not limited to hard disk sizes). 2015-07-11T10:03:44Z pjb: ghost_runner: I re-implemented my first language in CL. you can try it at http://nasium-lse.ogamita.com:8117/ 2015-07-11T10:04:05Z pjb: http://nasium-lse.ogamita.com/ 2015-07-11T10:05:54Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T10:06:37Z pjb: So basically, the interpreter and system used 2Kw (16-bit words), and the user data used 2Kw. The time sharing swapped the whole 2Kw out and in for each user. 2015-07-11T10:07:35Z pjb: Usually there was 9 terminals (up to 18), so that would take 36 KB of 128 KB of disk space only for the swap. 2015-07-11T10:07:52Z ghost_runner: pjb: i checked it out. i can't understand the language (french, i think) used for the interpreter. :( 2015-07-11T10:07:59Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-11T10:08:45Z pjb: Yep, it was French. Slightly better than basic, since we had procedures and functions, with lexical parameters, and pass by value and pass by reference, and also, high order functions. 2015-07-11T10:09:26Z pjb: The guys who designed it knew lisp. Too bad the hardware they had to use was too limited to lisp. 2015-07-11T10:10:26Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T10:10:35Z pocket quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T10:10:48Z ghost_runner: is lisp not as capable in low-level programming as the c family of languages? 2015-07-11T10:11:29Z pjb: ghost_runner: even better! for example it has ldb and dpb for bit manipulation that C doesn't even have (while a lot of processors have bit field manipulation instructions). 2015-07-11T10:16:16Z ghost_runner: pjb: so, memory management--an aspect of programming i've read that c uses a lot--can also be done in lisp? i don't have to learn c to practice memory management, and instead can use the language of my choice (lisp)? 2015-07-11T10:16:25Z smith_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-11T10:16:27Z pjb: Of course. 2015-07-11T10:17:27Z pjb: In C, memory is represented as a big array of bytes. Do the same in lisp: (defvar *mem* (make-array 1000 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) and you're all set to manage it like in C. 2015-07-11T10:18:03Z ghost_runner: sweet! 2015-07-11T10:18:05Z pjb: Have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.heap.heap 2015-07-11T10:20:07Z ghost_runner: seems like lisp is quite the ideal first (and long-run) language. and here i was considering c, due to quora and stackexchange recommendations 2015-07-11T10:20:08Z pjb: The only thing is that if you want to manage memory in lisp, you have to be careful of not using the mutator in the critical functions. This might be less obvious than in other programming languages, since a lot of CL functions allocate memory: cons, make-array, pathname, etc. Even + can allocate memory for bignums. 2015-07-11T10:20:12Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T10:20:54Z pjb: But then, you can define a package exporting only safe functions, and use it instead of CL when you write your memory management code. 2015-07-11T10:22:52Z pjb: ghost_runner: most implementations also provide what's called LAP: Lisp Assembler Program. This allows you to write code in assembler. (It's called VOP in sbcl). 2015-07-11T10:24:38Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-07-11T10:26:17Z ynchromeshs joined #lisp 2015-07-11T10:26:42Z ghost_runner: so, there exists a lisp compiler for lisp->asm compilations, like gcc? 2015-07-11T10:28:51Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T10:29:29Z ghost_runner: pjb: wow, this is a godsend: http://xuanji.appspot.com/isicp/ 2015-07-11T10:30:49Z pjb: several: sbcl ccl cmucl clasp (ecl and gcl use gcc to compile to native code, ecl, clisp and cmucl can also compile to bytecode and include a virtual machine), abcl targets the JVM. 2015-07-11T10:34:36Z ghost_runner: how is the lisp os genera? i can't find much about it online. 2015-07-11T10:34:45Z pjb: it's nice. 2015-07-11T10:35:14Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T10:35:43Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk 2015-07-11T10:39:21Z ghost_runner: looks much easier to use if you know lisp than windows, linux and mac are to general users, imo. 2015-07-11T10:42:40Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-11T10:43:10Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T10:45:27Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-11T10:45:32Z ghost_runner: pjb: too bad it's not available to the general public. looks more interesting the the current stuff out 2015-07-11T10:46:14Z pjb: ghost_runner: you can go the outlaw road. 2015-07-11T10:46:23Z eliasbagley quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-11T10:53:04Z Guthur: Emacs and SLIME can be an adequate Lisp Machine 2015-07-11T10:53:25Z pjb: Any CL implementation is, basically. 2015-07-11T10:53:31Z pjb: You only need to add a GUI. 2015-07-11T10:53:59Z pjb: Have a look at Movitz and Mezzano. 2015-07-11T10:55:38Z Guthur: ghost_runner: I feel I should warn you against being swayed by Clojure marketing 2015-07-11T10:56:18Z Guthur: I have to use it for work, and while it's better than no Lisp, it's claim to be a modern Lisp really has very little basis 2015-07-11T10:56:43Z Guthur: the tooling and compiler are very weak compared CL 2015-07-11T10:57:09Z Guthur: s/CL/CL implementations 2015-07-11T10:57:21Z Guthur: ...and SLIME 2015-07-11T10:58:31Z ghost_runner: yeah, i've read that there a quite a few cl/scheme-to-clojure converts out there, due to something called a JVM, i think 2015-07-11T10:59:24Z Guthur: yeah, i don't really get that argument, unless you want to run on hadoop or something 2015-07-11T11:00:10Z Guthur: and I have found that if you push a little harder clojure users often admit it's not really that compelling 2015-07-11T11:00:24Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T11:00:31Z Guthur: you still tend to wrap around it to hide the Java'ness of it 2015-07-11T11:08:38Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-11T11:10:46Z pjb: That's because functional programming is a flawed concept. 2015-07-11T11:11:34Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-11T11:12:22Z muyinliu: pjb: I try to call GetDiskFreeSpace (another function) and success. But I don't know how to get the value of lpSectorsPerCluster and other variable... code: http://paste.lisp.org/+38SV 2015-07-11T11:14:54Z muyinliu: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/+38SW 2015-07-11T11:16:00Z eazarlang_001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-11T11:16:08Z Guthur: pjb: I feel is used with sprinkle of pragmatism it can be a very useful discipline 2015-07-11T11:16:19Z Guthur: s/is/if 2015-07-11T11:16:28Z Guthur: re FP 2015-07-11T11:17:14Z pjb: muyinliu: you'd use rref or pref to get the values of the rlet blocks. 2015-07-11T11:17:48Z pjb: Guthur: of course. Hence Lisp, where you can mix and match several programming paradigms according to your current problem. 2015-07-11T11:18:24Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T11:21:39Z muyinliu: pjb: could you give some examples? 2015-07-11T11:25:39Z pjb: something like http://paste.lisp.org/+38SW/1 I gues. 2015-07-11T11:26:56Z muyinliu: pjb: I try. but (pref lpSectorsPerCluster #>LPDWORD) only get something like #<A Foreign Pointer #x8> 2015-07-11T11:27:17Z pjb: That would depend on the type #>LPDWORD. 2015-07-11T11:27:36Z pjb: Perhaps you want something like :long.long or :long or :int ? 2015-07-11T11:28:34Z pjb: Probably, it's wrong to do rlet with #>LPDWORD, since you don't want to allocate pointers, but double words! 2015-07-11T11:28:45Z pjb: LPDWORD is probably a type of long pointer to double word. 2015-07-11T11:29:16Z pjb: The question is what is a double word for MS-Windows? 32-bit? 64-bit? 2015-07-11T11:29:58Z pjb: Perhaps there's a #>DWORD ? 2015-07-11T11:30:07Z muyinliu: pjb: checking, wait a second 2015-07-11T11:31:42Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T11:34:30Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T11:37:14Z ghost_runner quit (Quit: Going to sleep) 2015-07-11T11:39:10Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T11:42:50Z muyinliu: pjb: finally, the code is finished ^_^, here: http://paste.lisp.org/+38SX 2015-07-11T11:43:02Z muyinliu: pjb: thanks a lot^_^ 2015-07-11T11:45:07Z xan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T11:47:24Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-11T11:47:32Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T11:48:22Z oleo__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T11:49:34Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-11T11:50:06Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T11:57:30Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-11T12:00:39Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:02:59Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:03:12Z pjb: muyinliu: nope. It lacks #+(and ccl windows). 2015-07-11T12:03:26Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-11T12:03:29Z pjb: muyinliu: you should always conditionalize code that is so dependent on a platform or an implementation. 2015-07-11T12:03:47Z pjb: And provide alternative implementations or at least, signal an error on the alternative case. 2015-07-11T12:04:16Z muyinliu: pjb: thanks for noticing^_^ 2015-07-11T12:04:26Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:04:30Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T12:06:42Z synchromesh left #lisp 2015-07-11T12:07:17Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:09:54Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:10:35Z brpocock quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T12:10:35Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:11:58Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-11T12:12:44Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:14:11Z cosmicexplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:15:11Z k-stz: I'm struggling with applying this http://random-state.net/log/3390120648.html need some examples or more reading material online 2015-07-11T12:17:07Z brpocock quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T12:17:18Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:17:37Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:17:48Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:18:14Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:18:27Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:18:47Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:19:01Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:19:07Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:19:25Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:19:34Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:20:03Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:20:13Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:20:42Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:20:48Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:21:02Z beach: k-stz: Go to http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html and type "invoke-with" in the Apropos window. 2015-07-11T12:21:10Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:21:25Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:21:57Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:22:34Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:23:13Z beach: k-stz: For each entry you will find a corresponding macro that refers to it. So for instance, in the entry for INVOKE-WITH-DRAWING-OPTIONS you will see that it is referred to from WITH-DRAWING-OPTIONS. 2015-07-11T12:23:41Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:24:17Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:24:41Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:25:04Z k-stz: ok hope it helps 2015-07-11T12:25:21Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:25:39Z beach: That I can't guarantee. I just dug up some examples for you. 2015-07-11T12:25:48Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:25:57Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:26:52Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:27:00Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:27:00Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:27:03Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:27:08Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:27:38Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:27:46Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:28:19Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:28:59Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:30:07Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:30:44Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:31:04Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-11T12:31:07Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:31:19Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:32:23Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T12:32:35Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:32:49Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:33:11Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:34:10Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:34:19Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:36:30Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:36:41Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:37:01Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:37:11Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:37:13Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:37:21Z Guthur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T12:37:36Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:37:51Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:38:12Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:38:27Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:38:51Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:39:04Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:39:31Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:39:39Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:40:05Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:40:16Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:40:43Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:40:52Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:41:24Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:41:29Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:41:55Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:42:02Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:42:32Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:42:41Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:43:10Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:43:59Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:44:14Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:44:28Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:44:53Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:45:05Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:45:30Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:45:41Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:46:07Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:46:18Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:46:43Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:46:48Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T12:46:54Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:47:17Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:47:29Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:47:42Z k-stz: how would I translate this (defmacro do-upto-10 ((i) &body body) `(loop for ,i upto 10 do (progn ,@body))) into the call-with-* form? 2015-07-11T12:47:51Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:47:53Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:48:02Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:48:07Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:48:52Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:52:15Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:52:45Z brpocock quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-11T12:53:28Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:53:44Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:53:49Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:53:55Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:53:59Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:54:27Z ggole: k-stz: eh? 2015-07-11T12:54:28Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:54:37Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:55:07Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:55:14Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:55:40Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:55:51Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:55:57Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:56:00Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:56:23Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:56:45Z k-stz: ggole: this perhaps, or just some fluke that it works: http://paste.lisp.org/+38T0 2015-07-11T12:57:01Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T12:57:02Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:57:18Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T12:57:22Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:57:35Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:58:03Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:58:14Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:58:38Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:58:42Z ggole: Oh right. I wondered if you were talking about continuation passing style. 2015-07-11T12:58:45Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:59:08Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T12:59:21Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T12:59:48Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T12:59:59Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:00:23Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:00:36Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:00:58Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:01:10Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:01:42Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:01:50Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:02:19Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:02:28Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:02:56Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:03:06Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:03:36Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 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2015-07-11T13:15:02Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:15:22Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:15:37Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:16:01Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:16:13Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:16:43Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:16:51Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:17:14Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:17:24Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:17:32Z k-stz: could it be imposslbe to translate this (defmacro do-upto-x ((i x) &body body) `(loop for ,i upto ,x do (progn ,@body))) into a call-do-upto-x form 2015-07-11T13:17:53Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:18:05Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:18:32Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:18:40Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:19:04Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:19:18Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:19:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:19:44Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:19:53Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:20:21Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:20:29Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:21:01Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:21:40Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:22:00Z Xach: k-stz: no, it could not be 2015-07-11T13:22:05Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:22:15Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:22:43Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-11T13:22:43Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:22:55Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:23:20Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:23:34Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:24:05Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:24:42Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:25:07Z 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Change the foreground color, execute some forms, change it back to what it was. Etc. 2015-07-11T13:27:10Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:27:41Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:28:19Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:28:46Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:28:57Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:29:28Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:30:06Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:30:30Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:30:31Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:30:35Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:30:47Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:31:06Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:31:30Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:31:46Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:31:50Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:32:29Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:32:39Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T13:32:57Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:33:05Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:33:31Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:33:41Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:34:07Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:34:18Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:34:37Z k-stz: beach: ah good to know, then I'm solving the wrong problem 2015-07-11T13:35:07Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:36:39Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:36:52Z k-stz: Xach: it is possible then? sorry i ask, the negations confused me 2015-07-11T13:37:16Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:37:51Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:38:23Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:38:49Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:39:00Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:39:34Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:39:40Z Xach: k-stz: sure. (call-for-i-upto-x x fun) => (defmacro for-i-upto-x ((i x) &body body) `(call-for-i-upto-x ,x (lambda (,i) ,@body)))))) approximately 2015-07-11T13:40:05Z Xach: (defun call-for-i-upto-x (x fun) (dotimes (i x) (funcall fun i))))) approximately 2015-07-11T13:40:13Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:40:39Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:40:51Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:40:58Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:41:50Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:41:55Z muyinliu: pjb: CCL call Win32 API GetDiskFreeSpaceEx code: http://paste.lisp.org/+38T2 2015-07-11T13:42:03Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:42:27Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:42:40Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:43:06Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:43:50Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:43:50Z brpocock quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T13:44:00Z muyinliu: pjb: another question: using CFFI to call Win32 API like GetDiskFreeSpaceEx require gcc or not? 2015-07-11T13:44:12Z k-stz: Xach: oh. oooooh I didn't consider just passing the ,x outside the lambda! 2015-07-11T13:44:29Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:44:54Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:44:58Z XachX: Consider it! 2015-07-11T13:45:03Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:45:46Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:46:18Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:46:40Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:46:50Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:47:18Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:47:30Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:47:56Z k-stz: that's great thanks a bunch 2015-07-11T13:48:42Z k-stz: just getting it to work is enough euphoria for a saturday hehe 2015-07-11T13:48:58Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:49:01Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:49:32Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:49:54Z Guthur: muyinliu: it should not require gcc, unless you are doing some grovelling 2015-07-11T13:50:16Z muyinliu: Guthur: thanks^_^ 2015-07-11T13:50:53Z copycat quit (Quit: copycat) 2015-07-11T13:51:44Z muyinliu: Guthur: how to call GetDiskFreeSpaceEx directly? 2015-07-11T13:52:27Z brpocock quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T13:53:14Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:53:33Z muyinliu: Guthur: use cffi:foreign-funcall ? 2015-07-11T13:54:00Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:54:24Z brpocock quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T13:54:35Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:54:39Z Guthur: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#Functions 2015-07-11T13:54:43Z Guthur: muyinliu:^ 2015-07-11T13:54:59Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:55:09Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:55:26Z Guthur: that should wrap it in a nice CL funcallable 2015-07-11T13:55:34Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:55:44Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:56:15Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:56:16Z muyinliu: how about the type translate? such as PULARGE_INTEGER 2015-07-11T13:56:25Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:56:41Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:56:55Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:57:12Z Guthur: you can define custom types 2015-07-11T13:57:35Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:58:01Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:58:03Z Guthur: that's a pointer to https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa383742(v=vs.85).aspx 2015-07-11T13:58:09Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:58:37Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:58:48Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:58:51Z Guthur: ffi takes a little bit of work 2015-07-11T13:58:53Z Guthur: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#defcunion 2015-07-11T13:59:02Z Guthur: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#defcstruct 2015-07-11T13:59:08Z Guthur: those two might help 2015-07-11T13:59:10Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T13:59:22Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T13:59:31Z Guthur: my cffi-fu is quite rusty so I can't really help much more than that 2015-07-11T13:59:51Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T13:59:59Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:00:01Z rxd joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:00:22Z rxd: will lisp help improve my piss poor algorithm design skills(problem solving) 2015-07-11T14:00:25Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:00:33Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:00:36Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:00:38Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:00:44Z rxd: because i suck at algorthms 2015-07-11T14:01:02Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:01:07Z Shinmera: Why do you think it would? 2015-07-11T14:01:09Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:01:32Z ggole: Practice will help you improve. Practice in lisp, if you like. 2015-07-11T14:01:33Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:01:49Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:02:09Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:02:24Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:02:27Z harish_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:02:48Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:02:59Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:03:21Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:03:33Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:03:39Z k-stz: lisp might help because it is fast to write programs in it, but that's about it I'd say 2015-07-11T14:03:52Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:03:59Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:04:13Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:04:21Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:04:34Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:04:47Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:05:12Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:05:25Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:05:26Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:05:45Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:06:00Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:06:25Z Shinmera: It also allows you more ways to solve problems with, since it offers multiple paradigms. 2015-07-11T14:06:25Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:06:36Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:06:57Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:07:08Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:07:34Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:07:45Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:08:12Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:08:23Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:08:50Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:08:56Z pacon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T14:08:58Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:09:15Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-11T14:09:20Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:09:35Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:09:56Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:09:59Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:10:11Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:10:45Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:11:17Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:11:24Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:11:29Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T14:11:42Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:11:51Z zophy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T14:11:53Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:12:18Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:12:31Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:12:53Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:13:05Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:13:34Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:13:44Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:14:05Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:14:20Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:14:42Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:14:55Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:15:30Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:15:38Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:15:45Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:15:57Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:15:59Z muyinliu: Guthur: param type LPDWORD, should I use with-foreign-pointer or with-foreign-objects before call the foreign function GetDiskFreeSpace? 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It's almost complete, but meet a weird problem: http://paste.lisp.org/+38T3 2015-07-11T14:33:06Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:33:19Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:35:03Z Th30n joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:36:05Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T14:38:26Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:38:27Z muyinliu: pjb: weird, now the output is correct... 2015-07-11T14:38:31Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:39:24Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:39:45Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:39:55Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:40:02Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:40:19Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-11T14:41:01Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:41:14Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:41:33Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:41:49Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:42:11Z 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closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:45:54Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:45:57Z beach: drmeister: OK, I'll investigate, but not today. 2015-07-11T14:46:32Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:47:05Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:47:43Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:47:53Z zophy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:48:03Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:48:16Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:48:18Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:48:39Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:48:44Z Guthur quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:48:56Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:49:20Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:49:22Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:49:31Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:49:50Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:50:04Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:50:28Z brpocock quit (Remote 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2015-07-11T14:54:16Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:54:39Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:54:49Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:55:19Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:56:01Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:56:36Z Fare: muyinliu, mind that uiop defines #+os-windows and #+os-unix to help you distinguish 2015-07-11T14:56:36Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:56:37Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T14:57:06Z Fare: beach: thanks, incudine looks like exactly the thing I was looking for. 2015-07-11T14:57:11Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:57:35Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T14:57:46Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:58:07Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T14:58:22Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:58:29Z SilentEcho joined #lisp 2015-07-11T14:58:42Z brpocock quit (Read error: Connection 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2015-07-11T15:16:55Z muyinliu: pjb, Guthur, Fare, |3b|: new version of cl-diskspace: https://github.com/muyinliu/cl-diskspace.git, now support Unix/Linux/Mac and Windows. Thank you again^_^ 2015-07-11T15:16:56Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:16:59Z brpocock quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T15:18:47Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:18:55Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:19:05Z beach: Fare: I think it was pjb who recommended it and not me. But hey, you are welcome. :) 2015-07-11T15:19:14Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:19:24Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:19:35Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:20:02Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:20:14Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:20:17Z Fare: beach: oops, thanks. 2015-07-11T15:21:04Z Fare: beach: would SICL / cleavir be a good starting point to build a lisp compiler with linear objects (and/or variables) and multiple-use continuations ? 2015-07-11T15:22:03Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:22:11Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:22:39Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:22:51Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:23:21Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:23:30Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:23:35Z beach: Fare: Remind me what linear objects are. 2015-07-11T15:25:00Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:25:19Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:25:44Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:25:54Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:26:08Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:27:04Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:27:36Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:27:42Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-11T15:28:01Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:28:05Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:28:32Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:28:36Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T15:28:44Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:29:11Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:29:12Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:29:23Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:29:53Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:30:02Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:30:30Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:30:39Z ggole: beach: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/Use1Var.html 2015-07-11T15:30:58Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:31:11Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:31:12Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:31:21Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:32:08Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:32:29Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:32:38Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:32:51Z beach: ggole: Thanks. 2015-07-11T15:33:04Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:33:30Z SilentEcho quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-07-11T15:33:49Z SilentEcho joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:33:49Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:33:57Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:34:17Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-11T15:34:27Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:34:35Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:34:40Z beach: minion: memo for Fare: I don't see anything in Cleavir that would prevent it from being used to create such a compiler. 2015-07-11T15:34:41Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-11T15:35:04Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:35:14Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:35:28Z SilentEcho quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T15:35:37Z SilentEcho joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:35:44Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:35:54Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:36:24Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:36:33Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:37:41Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:37:51Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:38:30Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:38:30Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:40:20Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:40:27Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:40:40Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:40:56Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:40:58Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:41:06Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:41:41Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:41:46Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:42:13Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:42:14Z aftershave joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:42:24Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:43:36Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:43:43Z brpocock quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T15:43:53Z smith_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:44:15Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T15:44:44Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:45:01Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:45:40Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:45:40Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:45:56Z peterhil` joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:46:30Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-11T15:47:21Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-11T15:47:29Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:47:37Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:48:01Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:48:09Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:48:14Z mea-culp` joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:48:16Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:48:46Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:48:56Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:49:35Z mea-culpa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T15:49:35Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:49:35Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:50:02Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:50:12Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:50:40Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:50:52Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:51:52Z subopt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T15:52:35Z subopt joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:54:27Z pie_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T15:57:34Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T15:58:45Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:03:45Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:05:03Z RussT1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T16:06:15Z zophy_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-11T16:06:18Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T16:06:25Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:14:14Z bertro quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T16:17:22Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-11T16:20:02Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-11T16:22:47Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T16:24:34Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T16:24:58Z pie__ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:28:25Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:28:45Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:30:26Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:31:01Z Th30n quit 2015-07-11T16:32:04Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-11T16:38:20Z DarkElement joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:38:31Z DarkElement: Anyone here help with the Maya software? 2015-07-11T16:39:00Z Shinmera: Is Maya written in Common Lisp? 2015-07-11T16:42:56Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:44:18Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-11T16:45:23Z pjb: DarkElement: nope. Here we know Common Lisp. Maya is an AutoDesk module. If it has any relationship to Lisp, it's AutoLisp. 2015-07-11T16:45:54Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:46:12Z DarkElement: AutoLisp? 2015-07-11T16:47:01Z pjb: DarkElement: you should scold AutoDesk to replace AutoLisp by Common Lisp in their products. 2015-07-11T16:47:23Z sizaxyd left #lisp 2015-07-11T16:47:30Z DarkElement: Umm..ok... 2015-07-11T16:47:49Z joast joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:48:18Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:48:37Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T16:48:46Z pjb: DarkElement: Besides, on freenode, AFAIK, it's frowned upon to talk about privative software. Freenode is for Free(dom) software. 2015-07-11T16:49:01Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:49:07Z pjb: DarkElement: http://freenode.net/ You've reached freenode, an IRC network providing discussion facilities for the Free and Open Source Software communities, not-for-profit organizations, and related communities. 2015-07-11T16:49:17Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-11T16:50:04Z DarkElement: Sorry, got it for student license 2015-07-11T16:50:33Z pjb: DarkElement: Yes, that's the candyman trick. The first drug dose is always free. 2015-07-11T16:50:50Z pjb: DarkElement: but if you want support or another dose you'll have to pay dearly to the corporation. 2015-07-11T16:50:58Z DarkElement: I see, lmao 2015-07-11T16:51:47Z pjb: Perhaps you would consider Blender, Sketch3D, or some other: http://www.3ders.org/3d-software/3d-software-list.html 2015-07-11T16:52:22Z williamy` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T16:58:36Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T16:59:41Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:01:21Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-11T17:06:25Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:08:22Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:11:19Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T17:12:31Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:12:34Z dadada joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:14:52Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T17:16:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-11T17:17:22Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:17:24Z edgar-rft: if anybody cares: there is a taiwanese channel #lisp.tw on freenode that discusses AutoLisp (omong other Lisp dialects), but I have no idea if you need to ask question in Taiwanese :-) 2015-07-11T17:19:17Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:21:16Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-11T17:22:49Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T17:23:36Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T17:25:09Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:27:24Z pie__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T17:27:56Z aeth: There's a ##lisp that is apparently for all lisps (it just says "and others" so maybe not), but idk if that includes proprietary non-historical ones like Autolisp. It's tiny so if no one there knows Autolisp you'd be out of luck, anyway. 2015-07-11T17:27:59Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:28:48Z dadada: The average customer of the computing industry has been served so poorly that he expects his system to crash all the time, and we witness a massive worldwide distribution of bug-ridden software for which we should be deeply ashamed. 2015-07-11T17:32:12Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:34:09Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:34:38Z smith_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-11T17:37:20Z pie__ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:38:40Z dadada left #lisp 2015-07-11T17:44:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:44:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-11T17:44:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:44:39Z mbuf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T17:46:14Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T17:46:34Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:47:26Z DarkElement: autolisp is unrelated to autodesk, correct 2015-07-11T17:48:06Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:48:21Z zophy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:49:40Z bin7me joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:51:54Z Shinmera: No. 2015-07-11T17:54:53Z akkad: balisp today. 2015-07-11T17:55:11Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T17:55:20Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:55:24Z contrapunctus: akkad: balisp? 2015-07-11T17:57:19Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T17:57:47Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T17:58:12Z lemoinem quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-11T17:58:21Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:58:52Z yati1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:59:19Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T17:59:19Z yati1 is now known as yati 2015-07-11T17:59:29Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-11T17:59:53Z akkad: bay area lisp meetup 2015-07-11T18:00:03Z akkad: in Franz Standard Time 2015-07-11T18:00:13Z contrapunctus: oh. cool! 2015-07-11T18:00:44Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:07:16Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T18:07:36Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T18:09:20Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:09:52Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T18:10:13Z dafunktion: nicd 2015-07-11T18:10:15Z dafunktion: nice 2015-07-11T18:12:46Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:15:31Z _baremetal joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:16:23Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T18:20:06Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:20:17Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-11T18:22:27Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:23:06Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T18:23:25Z tutte joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:25:34Z |3b| wonders if muyinliu missed that i pasted apparently working but incomplete cffi code for that free space function at the beginning of the discussion :/ 2015-07-11T18:27:03Z pjb: Hum… perhaps that would be a feature for lisp paste, to report to the paster, when an IP corresponding to a nick on irc fetches the paste on html. 2015-07-11T18:29:07Z |3b| also wonders which direction i want to go with hacking CFFI itself 2015-07-11T18:29:41Z |3b|: (and with the bindings i'm trying to write that are causing all the problems in the first place) 2015-07-11T18:30:36Z pjb: Just say no. 2015-07-11T18:30:44Z tutte quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-11T18:30:58Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T18:31:13Z pjb: That said, there's a level of FFI that is more like implementing an extension in C to the implementation, to access the host OS. 2015-07-11T18:31:18Z |3b|: reimplementing a c lib just so i can push the ffi down a bit doesn't sound like particularly good way to use my time at the moment 2015-07-11T18:31:30Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-11T18:31:32Z pjb: But if you're writing a FFI over a library, then no. 2015-07-11T18:31:39Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:32:55Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T18:33:07Z |3b|: the library is the userland side of a device driver, so i'd still need ffi to call the kernel side, and then i'd be constantly reimplementing the changes to the userland side since it is the subject of active r&d 2015-07-11T18:33:33Z |3b|: and then i'd have to have a version for each OS instead of just binding the userland side once 2015-07-11T18:33:53Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:35:57Z pjb: yeah, those are considerations. 2015-07-11T18:36:03Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:37:43Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:37:51Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T18:38:09Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T18:39:42Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:39:51Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T18:43:09Z yati1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:43:33Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T18:43:33Z yati1 is now known as yati 2015-07-11T18:48:49Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:49:31Z hrr4`` joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:55:03Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:55:47Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T18:56:03Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:57:15Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-07-11T18:58:51Z zophy_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T18:59:19Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T19:00:24Z jewel__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T19:00:33Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:00:47Z dmitigr: hello, folks! 2015-07-11T19:02:49Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T19:02:54Z pjb: hello, folk! 2015-07-11T19:03:55Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:04:19Z oleo: evening 2015-07-11T19:04:26Z _baremetal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T19:04:36Z dmitigr: could you tell me please, is it worth it to buy LispWorks 7.0 (Hobbyst) in order for better learning Common Lisp by working in LispWorks IDE? 2015-07-11T19:05:53Z PuercoPop left #lisp 2015-07-11T19:06:12Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T19:06:24Z |3b|: most of us just use emacs+slime rather than a separate IDE 2015-07-11T19:06:27Z dmitigr: I know that many cool Lisp software, such as Hunchentoot or cl-ppcre was writen by using LispWorks, so I think its matters. 2015-07-11T19:06:42Z pjb: I wouldn't think so. 2015-07-11T19:06:45Z Shinmera: I don't think it matters. 2015-07-11T19:07:04Z |3b|: those were written by the same person, who happens to use that implementation 2015-07-11T19:07:17Z |3b|: lots of other cool things were written by sbcl users, ccl users, clisp users, etc 2015-07-11T19:07:21Z pjb: And if you're on Mac, you can use the Clozure CL.app IDE from Appstore, or the MCLIDE.app IDE. 2015-07-11T19:08:25Z |3b|: (there are other reasons it might be worth paying for an implementation, but most of those probably don't matter for someone just starting, aside from maybe support) 2015-07-11T19:08:27Z dmitigr: I'm Emacs user since 2010, so I don't have problems with it. I just trying to be more productive. 2015-07-11T19:08:36Z |3b|: if you already use emacs, just get slime 2015-07-11T19:08:58Z dmitigr: |3b|: I'm already using SLIME :-) 2015-07-11T19:09:14Z pjb: dmitigr: one very good reason you don't want to pay for a privative implementation, is that you won't get the source code, so when you have a problem, you cannot solve it and correct the implementation. 2015-07-11T19:09:28Z pjb: This is really very bad. 2015-07-11T19:09:30Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:09:34Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:09:36Z dmitigr: just asking here what are lispers thinking about. 2015-07-11T19:09:37Z monod quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T19:09:47Z zophy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:10:01Z |3b|: this is "free"node, so you should expect a bit biased answer in that direction :) 2015-07-11T19:10:03Z dmitigr: pjb: uh 2015-07-11T19:10:31Z |3b|: you probably would get different answers from a lispworks forum/mailing list/whatever 2015-07-11T19:10:35Z dmitigr: |3b|: :-) But Lisp community is so tiny, that I have'nt choise :-( 2015-07-11T19:10:47Z |3b|: there are lots of tiny lisp communities though 2015-07-11T19:10:54Z pjb: there are tens of CL implementations! and hundreds of libraries! You only have choices! 2015-07-11T19:11:07Z |3b|: the commercial lisps have their own communities 2015-07-11T19:11:10Z pjb: and indeed, we don't count the non-CL lisps (ask on ##lisp) 2015-07-11T19:11:20Z |3b|: (there is lots of overlap between the various communities though) 2015-07-11T19:12:17Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-11T19:13:58Z dmitigr: okay guys 2015-07-11T19:14:11Z dmitigr: I got your opinions. 2015-07-11T19:14:33Z dmitigr: And respects it! 2015-07-11T19:15:12Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:16:25Z pjb: For example going with a privative OS costs the US NAVY hundreds of millions of dollars every years now, since the corporation doesn't want to maintain that OS anymore. If they had used Linux instead, they would have had to pay to get some linux commercial support, but they wouldn 2015-07-11T19:16:31Z pjb: 't have to pay to keep using it. 2015-07-11T19:16:59Z dmitigr: I'm thiking about purchasing LispWorks because of these words of Edi Weitz: "The best productivity tip I can give is to stick with one implementation and IDE and to invest a lot of time to really learn how to use it — including all the implementation-specific goodies like debuggers, inspectors, steppers, browsers, and so on." So, I thought that IDE/impl. matters ;-) 2015-07-11T19:17:22Z |3b|: it does a bit, but you can do that with slime and sbcl too :) 2015-07-11T19:17:54Z |3b|: and with slime+sbcl, you can add features if you miss one 2015-07-11T19:17:54Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-11T19:18:24Z pjb: At the beginning, it's good to stay with a single implementation. But when you're more experimented, it's better to use several of them, because they have different characteristics that are all useful. 2015-07-11T19:18:41Z pjb: Happily, emacs+slime covers most of the differences in debuggers inspecteurs, etc. 2015-07-11T19:19:59Z dmitigr: |3b|: well, ok 2015-07-11T19:20:06Z dmitigr: pjb: nice :-) 2015-07-11T19:20:33Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:22:01Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:23:07Z dmitigr: I used C++ many years and programming in it is unpleasant. So, I want to find really good tool to be more productive. ;) 2015-07-11T19:24:26Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:24:38Z jackdaniel: if you are emacs user, then you have invested a lot of time into using it - you know at least half of your lisp ide already ;) 2015-07-11T19:25:00Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:25:06Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T19:25:24Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T19:25:26Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:25:27Z jackdaniel: rest of ide is mode called slime, with all goodies mode can introduce 2015-07-11T19:27:30Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: yes, I guess :-) But I believe that here many experienced lispers that knows how to be productive and what tools to use. 2015-07-11T19:28:06Z dmitigr: As I can see, SLIME is one of the best tools. 2015-07-11T19:28:09Z |3b|: hmm, maybe adding yet another hook to the cffi protocol would be enough 2015-07-11T19:28:12Z jackdaniel: it is mere my personal opinion, but essence of productivity doesn't lie between tools, however tools may be helpful 2015-07-11T19:28:17Z pjb: also, be sure to add paredit, so emacs+slime+paredit. 2015-07-11T19:28:35Z pjb: It likes in the programmability of the tools. 2015-07-11T19:28:38Z pjb: lies 2015-07-11T19:29:10Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:29:41Z dmitigr: So, real pro is able to set the programmable tool for his own needs to be productive? :-) 2015-07-11T19:29:42Z |3b|: i think both of the existing expand-* could be implemented in terms of an expand-to-foreign-memory function, so most people could just make a method for that 2015-07-11T19:30:35Z jackdaniel: programmable tools might leverage productivity of productive person, yet I still think, that being productive is more attitude and work method then tools 2015-07-11T19:31:38Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:32:43Z |3b|: people who want to use a custom allocator will still need to use the full protocols though 2015-07-11T19:35:56Z dmitigr: |3b|: are you author of clws/cl-opengl? :-) 2015-07-11T19:36:12Z |3b|: more or less 2015-07-11T19:36:28Z |3b| is the current maintainer of cl-opengl, but didn't write all of it 2015-07-11T19:36:39Z dmitigr: uh 2015-07-11T19:36:55Z dmitigr: nice 2015-07-11T19:38:42Z contrapunctus: What's the word about quickdocs.org ? It comes up near the top of any Lisp searches I do (in duckduckgo), but opening it says it's "under maintainence. Sorry."... 2015-07-11T19:39:48Z |3b| would assume some sort of maintenance 2015-07-11T19:40:00Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-11T19:40:08Z |3b|: works here though 2015-07-11T19:40:44Z contrapunctus: o_o' 2015-07-11T19:41:22Z contrapunctus: oh. TIL - main page opens fine. it's the library links (hopefully, only the ones from DDG) that don't. 2015-07-11T19:41:45Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T19:42:02Z |3b|: ah, looks like some of the links on fron page are down too 2015-07-11T19:42:23Z |3b|: guess the one i ended up on was cached locally or something 2015-07-11T19:42:40Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:42:51Z contrapunctus: hm... 2015-07-11T19:44:35Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T19:46:09Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:46:34Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:48:48Z dmitigr: I've already read ANSI Common Lisp and Practical Common Lisp. Next, I want to write a medium-sized startup with it. What time it take to feel comfortable with Common Lisp in real development? :-) 2015-07-11T19:49:01Z DarkElement left #lisp 2015-07-11T19:49:30Z dmitigr: approximately :-) 2015-07-11T19:49:38Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:49:41Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-11T19:51:26Z hrr4`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T19:52:29Z ggole quit 2015-07-11T19:53:02Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-11T19:53:02Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:53:02Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2015-07-11T19:53:02Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:53:44Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T19:54:21Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:54:40Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-11T19:57:22Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T19:57:47Z bin7me quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-11T19:58:47Z Shinmera: Between one second and eternity. 2015-07-11T20:02:22Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:02:51Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T20:03:09Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T20:05:05Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:05:53Z Grue` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T20:06:45Z dmitigr: Shinmera: and for you? 2015-07-11T20:07:07Z Shinmera: I don't know. What does it mean to be comfortable with a language? 2015-07-11T20:07:51Z dmitigr: Shinmera: ability to write useful software, rather than "hello, world"s? 2015-07-11T20:07:52Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T20:08:10Z Shinmera: I did that within the first week of using Lisp, so 2015-07-11T20:08:13Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:08:14Z Shinmera: 0 seconds, I guess? 2015-07-11T20:08:54Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:09:08Z wyan: dmitigr: that has nothing to do with the language and everything to do with your experience carrying out similar projects 2015-07-11T20:09:31Z |3b| thinks that is more a question of potential uses and amount of general programming knowledge than specific language knowledge 2015-07-11T20:10:20Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-07-11T20:10:21Z |3b|: SLEEP + PRINT might be enough to make something useful, or if you already know how to program you could build something pretty complex just by programming like some other language 2015-07-11T20:10:47Z dmitigr: Shinmera: before you wrote you first useful program in Lisp, how many books you read about it? 2015-07-11T20:10:59Z Shinmera: dmitigr: PCL.. 2015-07-11T20:11:01Z Shinmera: *. 2015-07-11T20:11:32Z dmitigr: Shinmera: is it publicaly available? 2015-07-11T20:11:40Z Shinmera: minion: tell dmitigr about pcl 2015-07-11T20:11:40Z minion: dmitigr: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-11T20:12:15Z dmitigr: Shinmera: no, I already read PCL :-) I mean your software :-) 2015-07-11T20:12:55Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/lquery/ 2015-07-11T20:14:02Z dmitigr: Shinmera: looks impressive! 2015-07-11T20:14:35Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-11T20:14:56Z dmitigr: Shinmera: and what other books you read? 2015-07-11T20:15:12Z Shinmera: Much later I read On Lisp. Haven't finished anything beyond that so far. 2015-07-11T20:15:34Z dmitigr: :-) 2015-07-11T20:16:43Z dmitigr: Shinmera: you how do you think, was it possible to write lquery in C++ within a first week after reading The C++ Programming Language? :-) 2015-07-11T20:16:49Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:16:52Z dmitigr: you how = and how 2015-07-11T20:16:56Z pjb: contrapunctus: be happy, quickdocs is under active maintainance! 2015-07-11T20:17:15Z Shinmera: dmitigr: I haven't done it, so I can't say. 2015-07-11T20:17:53Z pjb: dmitigr: if you peruse the hyperspec, you can feel confortable with CL programming from the first day. 2015-07-11T20:18:01Z pjb: Of course, you might not write much code this first day. 2015-07-11T20:18:36Z pjb: dmitigr: consider it a caching process. There's those 1182 pages of hyperspect you need to load into the cache memory in your brain. This will take some times. 2015-07-11T20:18:50Z pjb: You can use various algorithms, to optimize different workloads. 2015-07-11T20:19:11Z pjb: Since we cannot know your workload, we cannot tell you what cache filling algorithm you should use. 2015-07-11T20:19:50Z pjb: One thing that works well, if you have a good memory (if your cache is large enough and you don't flush it too easily), is to read books from cover to cover. 2015-07-11T20:20:16Z dmitigr: pjb: yes, that what I'm doing. 2015-07-11T20:20:30Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-11T20:21:21Z dmitigr: pjb: I want to learn how to use Lisp to write DSLs for each task. 2015-07-11T20:21:37Z dmitigr: pjb: and write a task in this DSL. 2015-07-11T20:21:40Z dmitigr: tasks 2015-07-11T20:21:58Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T20:22:05Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:22:16Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:23:11Z dmitigr: because I think that Lisp is a metalanguage first of all :-) 2015-07-11T20:23:54Z dmitigr: so it would be nice to learn how to generate a small languages for each task. 2015-07-11T20:24:28Z pjb: dmitigr: watch Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/ or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZmcmdsoAXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UOmItPa4iA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPavndhYxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9xLi0iJg1g 2015-07-11T20:24:28Z pjb: 2015-07-11T20:24:53Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:25:13Z dmitigr: pjb: thank you! 2015-07-11T20:25:22Z Jaskologist_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:25:34Z pjb: dmitigr: then check ometa (but I find ometa useless, if you use embedded DSL (using sexps)). The principle described by Alan Kay is sound though. 2015-07-11T20:25:42Z pjb: cl-ometa I mean. 2015-07-11T20:26:02Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T20:27:08Z contrapunctus: pjb: https://github.com/DalekBaldwin/clometa ? 2015-07-11T20:27:22Z pjb: Yes. 2015-07-11T20:27:26Z pjb: it's in quicklisp. 2015-07-11T20:27:49Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:28:09Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-11T20:28:21Z pjb: On the other hand, cl-ometa is a good example of a DSL for the parser specification domain. 2015-07-11T20:29:09Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:29:54Z akkad: are there any graph dbs for cl? 2015-07-11T20:30:25Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:30:42Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-11T20:30:48Z Fare: beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substructural_type_system 2015-07-11T20:30:48Z minion: Fare, memo from beach: I don't see anything in Cleavir that would prevent it from being used to create such a compiler. 2015-07-11T20:31:36Z PuercoPop: akkad: https://github.com/kraison/vivace-graph-v3/ (haven't tried it though) 2015-07-11T20:31:50Z PuercoPop: and there is allegroGraph 2015-07-11T20:32:59Z akkad: 30 people all over 50 and 2 under 30... the state of lisp/scheme :P 2015-07-11T20:33:12Z Grue` joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:34:03Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T20:35:10Z drmeister: minion: memo for beach: one of my llvm buddies worked on the Idris compiler. 2015-07-11T20:35:10Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-11T20:37:29Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-11T20:37:41Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:37:48Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-11T20:39:03Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:42:36Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T20:43:34Z hegel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T20:48:08Z gacepa joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:49:13Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:50:00Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T20:51:48Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T20:53:59Z Grue` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T20:54:17Z yati quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-11T20:54:45Z malbertife quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T20:56:52Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T20:56:59Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2015-07-11T20:57:10Z dmitigr: Thank you all! See you later! 2015-07-11T20:57:43Z dmitigr quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2015-07-11T20:59:48Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T21:00:55Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:04:57Z kristof: I have a friend who does c# for a living. They're currently months behind on schedule because they have to write classes for a tremendous amount of similar objects. But most of the objects are very similar. So my friend pitched a "code generator" to his boss, and is now writing one. 2015-07-11T21:05:48Z kristof: He's probably going to spend the next month doing this. It's essentially just string manipulation. The generator goes into a database, pulls out some names, generates combinations, and auto-generates methods, etc. for the new class. 2015-07-11T21:06:04Z kristof: And by methods, I actually mean .cs files. 2015-07-11T21:06:22Z kristof: So he tells me all this, and I just laugh, thinking he reinvented metaprogramming. 2015-07-11T21:06:55Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T21:07:29Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:07:38Z Bike: c# has stuff for that, i did a presentation on it once. it's very verbose 2015-07-11T21:08:14Z kristof: I guarantee you it'd be better than what he's writing. 2015-07-11T21:08:34Z Bike: LINQ, that's it 2015-07-11T21:08:36Z Bike: probably 2015-07-11T21:08:40Z kristof: LINQ is different. 2015-07-11T21:09:34Z kristof: LINQ is just first class query constructs for c#. 2015-07-11T21:09:38Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T21:10:10Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:10:32Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-11T21:18:04Z Grue` joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:22:21Z wooden quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T21:22:43Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T21:22:54Z epitron quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T21:22:54Z zophy_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-11T21:25:22Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:25:29Z zophy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:30:09Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:30:59Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:31:16Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:31:59Z francogrex: I remember in earlier versions of sbcl I was getting a lot of compiler notes when compiling-file. Now with this program specifically I am getting nothing. is it possible that those are muffled somehow? 2015-07-11T21:32:12Z nyef: francogrex: Are you using SLIME? 2015-07-11T21:33:06Z francogrex: nyef: I am using a terminal simply and compile-file this here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151390 2015-07-11T21:33:56Z nyef: I have no idea. 2015-07-11T21:34:52Z nyef: What notes were you expecting? 2015-07-11T21:35:17Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:37:24Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T21:38:03Z francogrex: something like note: doing xxx to xxx coercion (cost 13) ... I used to get some like those 2015-07-11T21:38:31Z nyef: There could be some improvements to the type inference logic over time. 2015-07-11T21:38:33Z francogrex: and type confusion... 2015-07-11T21:38:38Z francogrex: I suppose so 2015-07-11T21:39:27Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:39:51Z |3b| gets some from that 2015-07-11T21:40:11Z francogrex: nyef was there not a compiling option to output some verbosity to another file 2015-07-11T21:40:28Z francogrex: |3b|: what do you get, can you post please? 2015-07-11T21:40:41Z nyef: Are you thinking of :TRACE-FILE ? 2015-07-11T21:40:55Z francogrex: yes indeed 2015-07-11T21:40:56Z nikki93 quit 2015-07-11T21:41:29Z |3b|: annotated the paste 2015-07-11T21:42:50Z francogrex: hmm strange. |3b| (LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-VERSION) ? 2015-07-11T21:43:09Z |3b|: "1.2.13.48-4d06dba" 2015-07-11T21:43:36Z lucien quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T21:43:49Z francogrex: 1.2.11 here, so that's not the version I suppose something else 2015-07-11T21:45:08Z |3b|: tried with --no-userinit --no-sysinit ? 2015-07-11T21:45:43Z nyef: Ah, I gets SET, so the type inferencer punts. Declare I to be FIXNUM as well? 2015-07-11T21:48:41Z francogrex: even with --no-userinit --no-sysinit I don't get the notes: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151390#2 2015-07-11T21:48:43Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:51:01Z epitron joined #lisp 2015-07-11T21:52:57Z |3b|: and that was just (compile-file "test.lisp")? 2015-07-11T21:54:08Z francogrex: |3b|: yes. I tried also on version "1.0.50.openbsd" and I still don't get the notes 2015-07-11T21:54:09Z |3b|: and that path is actually the file you are looking at? 2015-07-11T21:54:12Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T21:54:17Z zophy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-11T21:54:28Z francogrex: it is yes 2015-07-11T21:54:54Z |3b|: odd 2015-07-11T21:55:04Z akkad: can you make staticly linked ecl delivered apps? 2015-07-11T21:55:19Z francogrex: akkad: yes 2015-07-11T21:55:23Z akkad: k 2015-07-11T21:56:03Z francogrex: about 4.5 Mb in size the standalone 2015-07-11T21:57:02Z akkad: nice 2015-07-11T21:57:33Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/110110b7eb2df54f46b2 is what I use to generate the bin now 2015-07-11T21:59:52Z francogrex: yes it's ok 2015-07-11T22:04:16Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-11T22:05:46Z echo-area quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-11T22:05:46Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-11T22:06:09Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:06:39Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T22:08:38Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:09:02Z akkad: francogrex: do you know the static keyword? 2015-07-11T22:09:24Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T22:09:52Z francogrex: no not a keyword, you'll need to have a statically built ecl 2015-07-11T22:10:03Z akkad: k 2015-07-11T22:10:23Z pie__ is now known as pie_ 2015-07-11T22:10:25Z akkad: found the echoldox 2015-07-11T22:10:29Z francogrex: build it with --disable-shared I think will do 2015-07-11T22:10:41Z francogrex: echoldox? 2015-07-11T22:11:48Z akkad: ecl-docs 2015-07-11T22:12:15Z wolf_moz- is now known as wolf_mozart 2015-07-11T22:12:45Z wolf_mozart quit (Changing host) 2015-07-11T22:12:45Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:12:45Z wolf_mozart quit (Changing host) 2015-07-11T22:12:45Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:13:55Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:14:21Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:15:29Z akkad: recursivecharacters.com fun 2015-07-11T22:17:33Z lucien joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:18:56Z lucien quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-11T22:19:12Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-11T22:24:43Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:26:20Z eli joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:26:20Z eli quit (Changing host) 2015-07-11T22:26:20Z eli joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:26:41Z akkad: Found invalid character Rubout. ecl dislikes --disable-shared 2015-07-11T22:28:25Z francogrex: it's a bug then. which version of ecl? 2015-07-11T22:28:29Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:34:11Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T22:43:00Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-11T22:45:57Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T22:46:21Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-11T22:46:43Z |3b|: maybe instead of trying to simplify cffi, it would be easier to just export the extra protocol and make a wrapper to easily generate all the methods at once 2015-07-11T22:47:05Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:48:11Z |3b| will think about it more tomorrow :/ 2015-07-11T22:50:28Z theverbg joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:51:37Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:51:47Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-11T22:51:50Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-11T22:52:00Z phax left #lisp 2015-07-11T22:52:54Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-11T23:03:48Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-11T23:04:41Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-11T23:04:41Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T23:08:50Z gingerale- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-11T23:10:09Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T23:14:33Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T23:15:53Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-11T23:18:37Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-11T23:19:24Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T23:20:39Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-11T23:22:04Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-11T23:28:54Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-11T23:31:13Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-11T23:33:15Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-11T23:36:55Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-11T23:37:39Z Zhivago quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T23:38:13Z j0ni quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-11T23:39:40Z j0ni joined #lisp 2015-07-11T23:39:55Z dvgroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-11T23:40:45Z dvgroc joined #lisp 2015-07-11T23:41:02Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-11T23:42:14Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-11T23:43:12Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T00:00:35Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:03:24Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-12T00:03:48Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:09:11Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:15:51Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-12T00:24:34Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T00:24:52Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:28:20Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:29:06Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-12T00:31:41Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:38:02Z s00pcan quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-12T00:40:36Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T00:43:06Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:44:46Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T00:44:58Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T00:45:04Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:48:14Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:48:46Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-12T00:53:19Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:53:24Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:54:31Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-12T00:55:28Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T00:57:01Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-12T00:59:07Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:00:15Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-12T01:01:07Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T01:02:38Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:02:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-12T01:02:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:04:08Z contrapunctus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T01:10:51Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:26:55Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:26:55Z s00pcan quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-12T01:27:20Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:28:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T01:29:31Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:32:58Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:34:31Z dkcl quit (Quit: Enjoy) 2015-07-12T01:38:49Z Brozo quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-07-12T01:39:11Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:41:10Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:41:35Z aeth: What's the difference between declare and declaim? 2015-07-12T01:42:36Z williamyao: aeth: DECLARE is only allowed at the beginning of certain forms, like LET, PROG, etc. DECLAIM is global. 2015-07-12T01:42:44Z williamyao: clhs declare 2015-07-12T01:42:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 2015-07-12T01:42:54Z aeth: yes I'm reading the CLHS, it doesn't seem particularly clear here 2015-07-12T01:44:30Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-12T01:46:06Z williamyao: There's a list right there on that page that lists which forms you can use DECLARE in. 2015-07-12T01:48:08Z nyef: DECLAIM is a macro, and operates at toplevel. DECLARE is not a function, macro, or special form, instead it is an expression that is only valid in certain contexts. 2015-07-12T01:48:26Z aeth: No, I mean it's not very clear about the whole thing. I have to read several different pages to get an overview of what's going on (at least it's the *hyper* spec, with hyperlinks) and it's not clear what the declaration identifiers are. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_d.htm#declaration_identifier 2015-07-12T01:48:55Z aeth: oh I see, I have to click on each and every one of those links too in order to understand how it works 2015-07-12T01:49:00Z pie_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T01:49:53Z nyef: Well, it *is* an implementation spec, not a tutorial, introduction, overview, or other explanatory text. 2015-07-12T01:50:07Z _baremetal joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:51:07Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-12T01:52:16Z pjb: But then, when you've been nursed on the r5rs, the Pascal Report and the Modula-2 Report, you cannot learn a language otherwise than by reading the its standard specification… 2015-07-12T01:52:19Z aeth: Yes, it's the spec, but Google (at least the pages it chooses to send me) seems to only be turning up the CLHS here 2015-07-12T01:52:36Z aeth: "common lisp declaim" doesn't even return anything except for one result that's just a piece of code. 2015-07-12T01:52:46Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:53:01Z pjb: The result of declaim is implementation dependant. 2015-07-12T01:53:03Z aeth: There are some other pages, but not very accurate. One even is talking about "the" 2015-07-12T01:53:07Z pjb: Therefore you shall not use it in conforming code. 2015-07-12T01:53:57Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T01:55:31Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-07-12T01:56:01Z aeth: pjb: You probably won't like that, but that's a useful hint. Maybe I'll have more luck looking for sbcl-specific stuff rather than CL stuff in Google. 2015-07-12T01:56:42Z kristof: Doesn't Paul Graham's book have a description of every common lisp standard symbol? 2015-07-12T01:56:47Z pjb: I don't see how that's helpful at all. 2015-07-12T01:57:02Z pjb: kristof: or a big subset at least. 2015-07-12T01:57:02Z aeth: and sure enough "sbcl" provides results where "common lisp" doesn't. 2015-07-12T01:57:31Z pjb: I wouldn't know, I never search for sbcl. 2015-07-12T01:58:17Z aeth: For implementation-specific stuff, it'll be easier to write to SBCL and hopefully port it later than to write to, well, nothing because the spec is unclear. 2015-07-12T01:58:28Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T01:58:31Z kristof: aeth: SBCL's manual would tell you what it optimizes, and what it doesn't optimize, and perhaps how it does it. :) I think standardizing optimization levels is one of the most curious things in the common lisp. 2015-07-12T01:58:50Z kristof: *common lisp standard 2015-07-12T01:58:51Z aeth: kristof: yes the manual is what I found. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/ 2015-07-12T02:01:30Z aeth: If declaim is too non-portable I guess I can do a lot of declare stuff. 2015-07-12T02:01:38Z aeth: Unless that suffers the same problem, idk. 2015-07-12T02:02:39Z aeth: I guess at the very least I'll have to eventually test the code I write on CCL for OS X users. I'm not sure what Windows users use. SBCL? 2015-07-12T02:05:22Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-12T02:06:02Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-12T02:07:45Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T02:10:29Z aeth: What CL is common on Windows? 2015-07-12T02:14:17Z pjb: ccl 2015-07-12T02:14:19Z pjb: clisp 2015-07-12T02:14:20Z pjb: sbcl 2015-07-12T02:14:22Z pjb: abcl 2015-07-12T02:15:03Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T02:15:09Z pjb: aeth: just use #+sbcl for implementation specific stuff. 2015-07-12T02:17:21Z aeth: ugh, it would be nice if Github's search would read "#+sbcl" as a search for #+sbcl and not as a search for sbcl 2015-07-12T02:17:43Z aeth: because imo the #1 way to make sure I get the syntax right is to see it in code 2015-07-12T02:18:19Z aeth: It looks like #+sbcl (declare foo) is what I might want (in one line)? Also, for declaim. 2015-07-12T02:18:42Z aeth: or maybe #-foo if the foo impelementation has problems 2015-07-12T02:23:59Z nyef: clhs #+ 2015-07-12T02:23:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 2015-07-12T02:24:35Z aeth: Google of coures does not like #+ or "#+" at al 2015-07-12T02:25:04Z aeth: "!l1sp #+" on DuckDuckGo works, though. 2015-07-12T02:25:12Z Guthur: the CLHS is not too bad as far as language documentation goes 2015-07-12T02:25:20Z Guthur: I've certainly seen worse 2015-07-12T02:27:15Z aeth: Guthur: The problem, I think, is that it's very dated in its web design, and so things that might have made sense in "1996-2005" don't make as much sense today, including breaking everything into often extremely short pages (like 2.4.8.17) 2015-07-12T02:27:17Z Guthur: and this lists everything that can go in a proclaim and hence a declaim http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_procla.htm#proclaim 2015-07-12T02:27:39Z aeth: Another place where the CLHS looks dated is the lack of actual code examples in a lot of places (including 2.4.8.17) 2015-07-12T02:28:04Z Guthur: possibly, but I've seen some "modern" languages that don't even use hyperlinks in the online documentation 2015-07-12T02:28:39Z nyef: aeth: That's because you're used to documentation that is meant to be used to learn how something is used, not specification that is meant to be used as a guide for how to implement something. 2015-07-12T02:28:52Z Guthur: well it's not really a tutorial site as mentioned, check something like Practical Common Lisp for tutorial 2015-07-12T02:29:51Z Guthur: as an aside declare, proclaim, declaim are relatively advanced facilities 2015-07-12T02:30:46Z aeth: I think hyperlinks are kind of overrated, I like the r7rs PDF, although yes it probably doesn't have code examples for absolutely everything 2015-07-12T02:31:08Z aeth: (r7rs.pdf does seem to have links in it, though.) 2015-07-12T02:31:13Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T02:32:29Z aeth: PDF means I can use my very large screens to kind of get some sort of feel for the whole language, rather than just the subsection of a subsection of a subsection (although Scheme's spec isn't that detailed) 2015-07-12T02:33:24Z Guthur: i really could not disagree more about hyperlinks, there is next to no cost and they can make lookup infinity easier i.e. i don't have to do it manually 2015-07-12T02:33:55Z aeth: if everything's all on on page, you can e.g. just use #sections if you want to use the table of contents, but otherwise just use the browser's search feature 2015-07-12T02:34:15Z aeth: Instead of having to rely on external search engines like l1sp 2015-07-12T02:35:27Z Guthur: there may be an all in one page hyperspec, it actually would not be hard because it is sectioned 2015-07-12T02:35:35Z aeth: nyef: unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground (at least a popular one) between PCL and CLHS 2015-07-12T02:35:42Z Guthur: it would be large though 2015-07-12T02:36:08Z aeth: Guthur: right, r7rs could probably all fit on one HTML page without issues, CLHS probably would need several pages, but I doubt the sections have to be as small as they needed to be in 1996 2015-07-12T02:36:19Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-12T02:37:04Z aeth: In 2015 I think people are more used to scrolling down than to clicking on (non-animated!) GIF right arrows 2015-07-12T02:37:26Z Guthur: i've never clicked on the right arrows, hehe 2015-07-12T02:37:36Z aeth: I've clicked on the up a few times 2015-07-12T02:38:08Z Guthur: i don't read it like a book, I use it as a reference, Symbol index for specifics, or contents for topics 2015-07-12T02:38:17Z aeth: yes 2015-07-12T02:38:44Z nyef: I've occasionally read parts of CLHS as a book. 2015-07-12T02:39:00Z aeth: These days I just type "!l1sp" into my location bar and use duckduckgo's redirect to go to l1sp.org (I set DuckDuckGo as my default search engine for this) 2015-07-12T02:39:08Z mejja joined #lisp 2015-07-12T02:39:32Z aeth: Then I can use clhs, pcl, etc. 2015-07-12T02:40:03Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-12T02:40:30Z aeth: I didn't think declare is that advanced, though? I've seen declare and declaim used in some libraries. 2015-07-12T02:42:01Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-07-12T02:42:11Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-12T02:42:28Z Guthur: because it can be useful, but you will rarely find yourself unable to do something without the use of declare, proclaim or declare, compiler hints aside 2015-07-12T02:43:09Z aeth: Well yes, I can just use Common Lisp like it's Python, but if the type's known, why not give it a little speed boost? 2015-07-12T02:45:45Z williamyao: If you've already got the whole library or application done, go wild with optimizations. Otherwise, premature optimization, etc. etc 2015-07-12T02:46:47Z williamyao: Plus CL compilers are mature enough where often you won't need to do so for performant code anyways. 2015-07-12T02:47:25Z aeth: well yes normally I agree about premature optimization, but I'm working with OpenGL which means if I write something that runs too slowly, it won't be real time anymore 2015-07-12T02:47:30Z aeth: So I have to give some thought to speed throught 2015-07-12T02:47:51Z williamyao: Fair enough. 2015-07-12T02:51:41Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-12T02:51:54Z aeth: I started out just experimenting around with naive code the way I usually write stuff... and it's not that fun when mixed with cl-opengl. 2015-07-12T02:52:43Z aeth: What I'm trying to do now is a different approach, which is trying to find out how high-performance CL works 2015-07-12T02:52:54Z pjb: aeth: http://cliki.net/Performance 2015-07-12T02:52:59Z aeth: thanks 2015-07-12T02:53:12Z aeth: I've been to that page 2015-07-12T02:53:40Z aeth: There are papers that say it can be very fast, which is great. What I need is to know the patterns that are used to write Lisp quickly 2015-07-12T02:53:44Z magical-imouto is now known as ninja-maid-robot 2015-07-12T02:54:54Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T02:55:27Z pjb: The pattern is not to lose time with low level stuff like you have to do with C or C++, and instead spend your time finding a better algorithm, or avoiding computations altogether (eg. by replacing them with symbolic computations or reasoning). 2015-07-12T02:55:45Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-12T02:56:26Z aeth: I guess I'm approaching this backward. I was looking at libraries that run very fast, and one thing they seem to do is use declaim and/or declare 2015-07-12T02:57:14Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-12T02:58:02Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-12T02:58:21Z lokulin quit (Changing host) 2015-07-12T02:58:21Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-07-12T02:58:40Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 39.0/20150630154324]) 2015-07-12T02:58:42Z pjb: This is low level optimization. At most you make it run twice as fast with declarations. You want orders of magnitudes faster! You want to think to switch from O(e^n) to O(n)! 2015-07-12T02:59:08Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-12T02:59:21Z Bike: i read that as O(n!) and man, confusing 2015-07-12T03:03:59Z aeth: Bike: I can do that. That sounds easy, using O(n!) code 2015-07-12T03:06:35Z aeth: pjb: some of the advice seems bad, e.g. the article that says "Why you should never, ever, EVER use linked-list in your code again" 2015-07-12T03:07:35Z aeth: At least the way I write my code, with lots of calls to MAP where possible, MAPCAR on lists seems to be faster than MAP 'vector on vectors (and yes there are good reasons why this would happen given how the implementations work) 2015-07-12T03:08:02Z aeth: Unless the conversion is very expensive, it seems to make sense to convert to vector as late as possible and use lists at first. 2015-07-12T03:10:49Z aeth: so afaik anything that can be expressed as (a simple) map would be better on a linked list 2015-07-12T03:12:02Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-12T03:16:28Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-12T03:21:31Z _baremetal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T03:21:57Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-12T03:23:02Z DBeepBeep joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:26:49Z DBeepBeep left #lisp 2015-07-12T03:32:42Z eazarlang_001 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z waqqx joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z waqqx left #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z eiqthem joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z eiqthem left #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z nmygmjr joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z nmygmjr left #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z zsntofd joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z zsntofd left #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z yuuqi joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z yuuqi left #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z snxnbm joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z snxnbm left #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z uenptsg joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:39Z uenptsg left #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:40Z xvbqj joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:33:40Z xvbqj left #lisp 2015-07-12T03:34:16Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:34:40Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-12T03:34:45Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T03:38:19Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T03:41:04Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:41:12Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-12T03:41:12Z minion: beach, memo from drmeister: one of my llvm buddies worked on the Idris compiler. 2015-07-12T03:41:32Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-12T03:41:54Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-12T03:42:57Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:43:09Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-12T03:51:19Z theos: morning beach 2015-07-12T04:01:38Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-12T04:11:47Z kristof quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-12T04:14:10Z beach: I can't remember where in the Common Lisp HyperSpec the relationship between declarations, documentation, and forms in a BODY is discussed. Can anyone help? 2015-07-12T04:16:46Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-12T04:16:56Z jsnell: clhs 3.4.11 2015-07-12T04:16:57Z specbot: Syntactic Interaction of Documentation Strings and Declarations: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dk.htm 2015-07-12T04:18:26Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-12T04:20:02Z beach: Thanks! 2015-07-12T04:22:01Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-12T04:23:20Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T04:23:37Z theos: jsnell how do you remember the numbers? 2015-07-12T04:23:46Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-12T04:26:43Z jsnell: oh no, I just knew the general area of the documentation this was in, went there, and then pasted the number here. the only section number I remember is 11.1.2.1.2.1 just because it's both important and funny. 2015-07-12T04:27:09Z nyef: ... Is that SIMILARITY, or PACKAGE LOCKS ? 2015-07-12T04:27:23Z jsnell: package lock stuff 2015-07-12T04:27:39Z nyef: I was fairly sure that it was one of the two. (-: 2015-07-12T04:28:37Z beach: drmeister: The MACROLET problem turned out to be a problem with a BODY with only declarations in it and no forms. It should be fixed now. 2015-07-12T04:30:57Z theos: hmm 2015-07-12T04:36:30Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-12T04:41:00Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2015-07-12T04:43:21Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-12T04:47:51Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-12T04:58:41Z cheryllium quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T05:08:01Z Guthur: does there and exist a more upto date version of usockets documentation 2015-07-12T05:08:14Z Guthur: the docs here does not seem to fully match the public API 2015-07-12T05:08:18Z Guthur: https://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/api-docs.shtml 2015-07-12T05:11:24Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-12T05:11:54Z Guthur: on a related note, when a peer disconnects it seems to leave the stream socket in a constant ready to read state 2015-07-12T05:12:17Z Guthur: is there a way of knowing that the peer as disco'd 2015-07-12T05:14:34Z ofosos joined #lisp 2015-07-12T05:15:54Z Guthur: ah nvm, it's an end of file error 2015-07-12T05:16:08Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-12T05:25:04Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T05:25:13Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-12T05:25:16Z mlrutherford quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T05:25:51Z drmeister: beach: Great - thank you! 2015-07-12T05:32:46Z akkad: parallel gc exist for most lisps? 2015-07-12T05:33:10Z Bike: i don't think so 2015-07-12T05:34:16Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-12T05:34:38Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T05:35:03Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-12T05:36:01Z eazarlang_001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-12T05:37:54Z beach: drmeister: I just realized my fix doesn't generally work. 2015-07-12T05:38:05Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-12T05:38:14Z beach: Or, rather, it doesn't correctly detect some errors. 2015-07-12T05:38:19Z drmeister: I haven't had a moment to pull it yet - so it's not a problem. 2015-07-12T05:38:38Z beach: It should work for correct code. 2015-07-12T05:38:52Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-12T05:38:59Z drmeister: I was going to pull it in a half hour or so. Should I wait? 2015-07-12T05:39:24Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T05:40:04Z drmeister: I see, it' won't correctly detect errors. I'll pull it - I'll test it on working code (Slime). 2015-07-12T05:40:33Z Denommus quit (Quit: going to sleep) 2015-07-12T05:43:27Z meiji11 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-12T05:44:21Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-12T05:46:36Z beach: You can pull now. 2015-07-12T05:48:07Z beach: The question was what to do with (declare ...) <form> (declare ...). 2015-07-12T05:49:05Z beach: After the first fix I did today, <form> was considered a declaration. Now, the second (declare ...) is considered a form, so the problem will be reported as DECLARE not being a valid function name. 2015-07-12T05:49:15Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T05:50:08Z beach: Before my first fix today, in a body with only declarations, the declarations were considered to be forms, which is of course wrong. 2015-07-12T05:51:16Z Bike: Clasp's running slime now? 2015-07-12T05:52:29Z beach: Bike: It (bclasp) has done for some time. The question was about cclasp, i.e., Clasp using the Cleavir-based compiler. I think they are close to running SLIME with it. 2015-07-12T05:52:46Z Bike: Cool. 2015-07-12T05:52:53Z beach: Or at least I think that's true. drmeister can be more specific. 2015-07-12T05:53:18Z drmeister: Yes, I think we are close to running Slime with it. 2015-07-12T05:53:55Z gabriel_laddel left #lisp 2015-07-12T05:55:17Z drmeister: stassats knows better how close. His machine builds cclasp faster than mine does and he has made more attempts to run Slime than I have. I've been killing my build because he reports errors before I can find them and I stop to try and debug things. 2015-07-12T05:55:51Z beach: How long does it take to build it now on your machine? 2015-07-12T05:55:53Z Bike: haha. 2015-07-12T05:55:54Z drmeister: Here's what he said a couple of hours ago: "swank server starts but has trouble connecting" 2015-07-12T05:55:59Z drmeister: About 8 hours 2015-07-12T05:56:10Z beach: That's down from what? 11? 2015-07-12T05:56:19Z drmeister: Today it took stassats 4:35:37.98 hours 2015-07-12T05:56:26Z beach: Do we know what made it faster? 2015-07-12T05:56:40Z beach: Improvements to the bclasp compiler? 2015-07-12T05:56:43Z drmeister: Down from 11 a couple of weeks ago. 2015-07-12T05:56:47Z drmeister: Still - it's a crazy amount of time. 2015-07-12T05:59:37Z beach: drmeister: So do you know what made it faster? 2015-07-12T06:05:59Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-12T06:06:34Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-12T06:07:04Z drmeister: The big thing was compiler macros for + - < <= >= > = in bclasp and doing (+ fixnum fixnum) using overflow detection rather than promoting the fixnums to bignums 2015-07-12T06:07:53Z drmeister: Consing &rest arguments and promoting all fixnums to bignums for (1+ x) was expensive. 2015-07-12T06:08:39Z Bike: oh huh, you just allocated bignums for every fixnum addition? 2015-07-12T06:08:53Z drmeister: I did, I don't anymore. 2015-07-12T06:10:03Z Bike: i forget, what do you use for bignums? 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2015-07-12T09:47:20Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-12T09:48:05Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-07-12T09:50:30Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-12T09:52:52Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T09:54:30Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-12T09:54:45Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T09:55:31Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-12T09:56:04Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T09:56:31Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-12T09:59:43Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: have you ever tested JSON encoder in your UC thing? 2015-07-12T10:00:10Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: It's not JSON-spec compliant iirc. 2015-07-12T10:00:32Z Shinmera: UC is a bad solution anyway, in hindsight. 2015-07-12T10:00:39Z Shinmera: I should replace it with something better. 2015-07-12T10:00:56Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: it also doesn't work. I discovered this a few days ago while trying to write data in other-programmers-readable format. 2015-07-12T10:01:15Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: yeah, doesn't surprise me. 2015-07-12T10:01:29Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I couldn't debug this since it goes into infinitely-recursive errors, exhausting max error depth. 2015-07-12T10:01:36Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T10:01:43Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I took a look a the code, it looks fine, but it doesn't work. 2015-07-12T10:01:57Z hitecnologys: s/a look a/a look at/ 2015-07-12T10:02:14Z Shinmera: I don't have the time to fix it right now, sorry. 2015-07-12T10:03:23Z hitecnologys: It's OK, I've worked it around by using database to store data, since production system happen to have MariaDB running. =P 2015-07-12T10:03:34Z Shinmera: My future plan for the UC replacement/revision is to just provide a set of 'smart accessors' that should be able to traverse any data structure properly, and leave the encoding / decoding up to the user so they can pick a parser appropriate to their format. 2015-07-12T10:04:28Z hitecnologys: That would be great. If also added support for XDG_* stuff it would be even greater. 2015-07-12T10:04:41Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T10:04:47Z Shinmera: What do you mean by that? 2015-07-12T10:04:52Z hitecnologys: Bleh, something's wrong with my fingers today: If you also* 2015-07-12T10:05:17Z hitecnologys: I mean if UC could automatically write files to, say .config/ location, it would be handy. 2015-07-12T10:05:31Z Shinmera: Ah, I see. That's a good idea, yeah. 2015-07-12T10:05:33Z hitecnologys: Because sometimes I need to construct config on fly for persistence. 2015-07-12T10:05:44Z hitecnologys: And then I need to deal with pathnames myself. 2015-07-12T10:05:46Z hitecnologys: Nasty. 2015-07-12T10:06:09Z hitecnologys: I even wrote an abstraction layer on top of it, but it's not as good as I want it to be either. 2015-07-12T10:11:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-12T10:12:20Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:14:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:14:56Z async_eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:17:21Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:17:38Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:19:31Z francogrex quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T10:20:17Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:20:28Z Guthur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T10:20:51Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:22:40Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:23:07Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-12T10:23:49Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-12T10:26:24Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:32:33Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T10:35:00Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-12T10:38:05Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:42:12Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:45:10Z beach: Shinmera: Thanks for the text-only interface. Now I have to write a little program that takes a date and produces the URL that will download all entries for the day indicated by the date. 2015-07-12T10:45:39Z Shinmera: beach: Note that the API is limited to a 1000 messages tops, so always make sure to check the ending date. 2015-07-12T10:45:59Z Shinmera: err, 1000 events tops 2015-07-12T10:46:19Z beach: Shinmera: Oh, OK. My intention was to download them a day at a time. 2015-07-12T10:46:22Z Shinmera: If it's particularly active at some point you might not get everything in one call. 2015-07-12T10:46:48Z beach: Hmm, yes, I guess so. 2015-07-12T10:47:26Z beach: In fact, that number is easily exceeded, it seems. 2015-07-12T10:47:41Z Shinmera: The good news is that iterating over it should not be hard. 2015-07-12T10:48:01Z beach: Sure, yes. 2015-07-12T10:48:09Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:48:30Z beach: Is that limitation true for the HTML interface as well? 2015-07-12T10:48:34Z Shinmera: Yes. 2015-07-12T10:48:57Z beach: That explains the mysterious behavior I remarked on in the past. 2015-07-12T10:49:17Z beach: Why 1000, rather than (say) 1000000? 2015-07-12T10:49:31Z Shinmera: Because then the server would quickly get overloaded 2015-07-12T10:49:43Z beach: I see. 2015-07-12T10:49:45Z Shinmera: I don't cache any of the requests. 2015-07-12T10:49:52Z beach: I understand. 2015-07-12T10:50:08Z beach: Lunch. I'll be back later. 2015-07-12T10:51:33Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-12T10:56:07Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-12T11:03:44Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-12T11:09:15Z munksgaa1d joined #lisp 2015-07-12T11:09:35Z Shinmera: beach: The reason that the limit is so low is mostly because my current web stack is not in any way optimised to be fast. I haven't had time to work on making that happen yet. 2015-07-12T11:09:53Z gacepa quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-07-12T11:10:58Z gacepa joined #lisp 2015-07-12T11:12:16Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T11:17:44Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, I see. Don't worry about it. This is fine as it is. 2015-07-12T11:20:04Z nyef: WooHoo! I just successfully allocated and engrafted a medium for an indirectly-mirrored sheet, and it worked! (-: 2015-07-12T11:20:24Z nyef: It'll break down as soon as I start adding geometry and clipping to the mix, but this is a very nice start. 2015-07-12T11:21:24Z ssake_ joined #lisp 2015-07-12T11:23:02Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-12T11:25:26Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-07-12T11:32:49Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-12T11:34:29Z Guthur: nyef: what is an indirectly-mirrored sheet? 2015-07-12T11:35:54Z nyef: Guthur: It's a sheet without a direct mirror. 2015-07-12T11:36:26Z nyef: (Thus, a sheet that uses a mirror belonging to an ancestor.) 2015-07-12T11:37:30Z Guthur: hehe, i think i am missing so crucial context, not sure what a sheet is in this case 2015-07-12T11:38:55Z nyef: This is in the context of CLIM. 2015-07-12T11:40:52Z Guthur: ah ok, neat, are you working on an implementation? 2015-07-12T11:42:22Z nyef: More-or-less. There are parts of the spec that are incoherent, insane, incomplete, or broken, so I'm taking it as more of a guideline. 2015-07-12T11:43:16Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-12T11:46:44Z nyef: Okay, I need to get going. 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(first form) form) nil) 2015-07-12T13:00:51Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-12T13:02:14Z beach: pjb: Good idea actually. 2015-07-12T13:04:03Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:07:10Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:07:33Z schjetne: Strange. I'm trying out the lisp-zmq examples for ZeroMQ, and they keep failing on a call to ZMQ::CALL-FFI with one of the arguments dissapearing in thin air. 2015-07-12T13:07:38Z schjetne: Will paste 2015-07-12T13:09:04Z pjb: beach: On the other hand, since the implementation may still have to process declarations specially, it may already have the tests in place for all the cases, so this macro wouldn't be macroexpanded ever in the first place. Given special declarations must be handled. 2015-07-12T13:09:41Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:10:33Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T13:11:30Z schjetne: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151440 2015-07-12T13:11:46Z schjetne: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151441 2015-07-12T13:11:47Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:11:47Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-12T13:11:47Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:11:51Z schjetne: Never seen anything like it 2015-07-12T13:16:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:25:58Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:37:38Z ggole: Nil isn't of type (or symbol *)? O_o 2015-07-12T13:37:57Z loke_erc joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:40:21Z schjetne: Yes, that's another weird thing, (symbolp nil) => t 2015-07-12T13:40:29Z tajjada joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:40:38Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T13:41:21Z schjetne: But I did discover that CFFI had grovelled the wrong .h 2015-07-12T13:41:35Z schjetne: Maybe that will fix the problem 2015-07-12T13:41:55Z pjb: The error message is mislabelled, but in anycase, CL:NIL cannot be funcalled. 2015-07-12T13:42:25Z pjb: Perhaps this implementation uses a non-symbol to represent CL:NIL. 2015-07-12T13:42:43Z schjetne: This is CCL, I get the same in SBCL 2015-07-12T13:43:10Z pnpuff quit (Quit: qicr for android: faster and better) 2015-07-12T13:46:10Z schjetne: Yes, zapping the cached filed and making sure it grovels the correct header file solved the problem. But it was a really confusing error message 2015-07-12T13:47:01Z schjetne: Now to get through Pacman's thick skull I want ZeroMQ 3 and all the packages depending on it will shut up and like it. 2015-07-12T13:48:06Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:48:47Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:49:09Z schjetne: But as always, bothering others about the problem is the best catalyst for me to find the solution, so thanks for bearing with me! 2015-07-12T13:49:19Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:49:25Z francogrex: I have a good idea for a tree shaker. attach lisp to gdb and walk through the assembly code! 2015-07-12T13:50:44Z pjb: Be extra careful with non-conforming or undefined code. The launch a missile thread is not in vain! http://www.computerworld.com/article/2945383/cyberwarfare/did-hackers-remotely-execute-unexplained-commands-on-german-patriot-missile-battery.html 2015-07-12T13:50:55Z pjb: threat 2015-07-12T13:52:06Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:54:19Z MinlP-xx joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:54:50Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-12T13:55:38Z MinlP-xx quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-12T13:55:43Z schjetne: "German Patriot", that sounds contentious. 2015-07-12T13:56:20Z pjb: Like West Virginia Patriot, or Bagdad Patriot? 2015-07-12T13:56:30Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-12T13:57:48Z schjetne: Knowing Germans I would have assumed they would have rebranded it something innocious, like "Bundesaufgeher" 2015-07-12T14:00:01Z smith_ joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:02:16Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T14:02:22Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-12T14:02:29Z MinlP joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:06:35Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T14:09:49Z shifty joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:12:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:20:22Z MinlP quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-07-12T14:24:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:27:09Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:31:25Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T14:31:54Z schoppenhauer: hi. is anyone using lisp, specifically cffi, under nixos? 2015-07-12T14:32:50Z loke_erc: schoppenhauer: What is nixos? 2015-07-12T14:32:59Z schoppenhauer: loke_erc: nixos.org 2015-07-12T14:36:01Z tessier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T14:36:06Z schoppenhauer: well the problem appears to be that cffi does not like libraries in nonstandard paths, apparently 2015-07-12T14:36:15Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:38:48Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:39:09Z Bike: it should just be using the system search mechanism 2015-07-12T14:42:17Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:43:04Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-12T14:45:55Z schoppenhauer: it isn't. 2015-07-12T14:46:05Z schoppenhauer: or maybe it is 2015-07-12T14:46:21Z schoppenhauer: or maybe it is in some way that is not the way the nixos-people expected 2015-07-12T14:46:51Z schoppenhauer: it works when I set the path explicitly inside cffi. but not when I use LD_LIBRARY_PATH 2015-07-12T14:48:23Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:48:58Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:49:35Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:51:05Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:51:41Z yati quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T14:58:58Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:59:19Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-12T14:59:33Z schoppenhauer: ah there is NIX_LISP_LD_LIBRARY_PATH 2015-07-12T15:01:02Z DeadTrickster: is it safe to use change-class on sbcl? 2015-07-12T15:01:16Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: what do you mean by "safe"? 2015-07-12T15:01:40Z DeadTrickster: clhs make note about optimizations and slot accessors 2015-07-12T15:02:13Z DeadTrickster: and undefined results... 2015-07-12T15:03:14Z DeadTrickster: Also I don't remember any code that actually uses it. 2015-07-12T15:03:40Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-12T15:03:48Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: i've been using it and found it to work, but i'm not the right person to say that it generally works in all possible cases 2015-07-12T15:03:51Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-12T15:04:47Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-12T15:05:02Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: change-class is part of the standard, though, so i would be surprised if there are general restrictions on its use other than what the standard mandates. 2015-07-12T15:05:11Z DeadTrickster: H4ns, now I just need to upgrade to more specialized class (basically add slots) 2015-07-12T15:05:22Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_chg_cl.htm 2015-07-12T15:05:43Z DeadTrickster: I'm just not sure it was designed for what I'm planning to do with it 2015-07-12T15:06:02Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: it is designed to change the class of an instance to another class 2015-07-12T15:06:13Z DeadTrickster: H4ns, yeah =) 2015-07-12T15:06:30Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: making the object into a more specific instance within the same inheritance tree is a proper use case. 2015-07-12T15:07:08Z pllx_ joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:07:26Z DeadTrickster: It's like I have an object factory and later I can decide to upgrade the class if some specific conditions met 2015-07-12T15:08:09Z magical-imouto quit (Quit: fix config) 2015-07-12T15:10:03Z Guthur: DeadTrickster: I'm guessing you have some complex/deep hierarchy of inheritance? 2015-07-12T15:10:36Z Guthur: if so, it really doesn't scale, and is a broken model OO, imo 2015-07-12T15:11:31Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: if you like your class hierarchy, then it sounds to me that using change-class to the effect that you describe is okay. 2015-07-12T15:12:02Z DeadTrickster: Guthur, not so deep actually: my case: I'm using clws and sometimes I have to have different classes for clients depending on context (logged in, role and so on) 2015-07-12T15:12:03Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: change-class potentially flushes caches for the instance that you're changing, so there could be a performance penalty. 2015-07-12T15:12:40Z DeadTrickster: I have base class clws:client and if client connects to specific resource I want to upgrade it to class with additional fields 2015-07-12T15:13:04Z DeadTrickster: or slots, whatever ) 2015-07-12T15:14:49Z Guthur: well it is Lisp, so anything is possible, hehe 2015-07-12T15:15:58Z beach: DeadTrickster: I use it in some situations. For instance in the Cleavir compiler, I change the class of certain instructions in intermediate code once I know more about their exact nature. It saves a lot of complicated manipulation to preserve the identity of those instructions as well as their positions in the instruction graph. 2015-07-12T15:16:04Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:17:46Z DeadTrickster: H4ns, regarding caches, class will be changed almost immediately after object creation (as early as possible, when headers parsed and resource accepted connection) 2015-07-12T15:18:12Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: so there is nothing to worry about 2015-07-12T15:19:40Z DeadTrickster: beach, you changing class to more specific too? 2015-07-12T15:20:21Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-12T15:20:38Z DeadTrickster: H4ns, I worried mostly about inlining and all other sbcl-specific optimizations 2015-07-12T15:20:57Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: change-class is not up for negotiation 2015-07-12T15:21:05Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:21:15Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: it'd be a bug in sbcl if it screwed up when you use it. 2015-07-12T15:21:53Z Guthur quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T15:25:41Z munksgaa1d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T15:27:39Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:27:44Z scymtym: DeadTrickster: check https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/b2cd21199ee67ea8ad6f5d49b83d0c7d8e817f42/tests/clos.impure.lisp#L190 and the following ~250 lines. the things exercised there should definitely work. 2015-07-12T15:28:03Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, thx 2015-07-12T15:36:12Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:36:25Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:38:52Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:38:54Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T15:40:30Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T15:46:40Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T15:48:57Z mea-culp` joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:49:28Z copycat quit (Quit: copycat) 2015-07-12T15:49:48Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T15:50:11Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:50:12Z mea-culpa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T15:52:22Z subopt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T15:53:05Z subopt joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:53:20Z mea-culp` is now known as mea-culpa 2015-07-12T15:53:54Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T15:54:13Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T15:54:14Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:54:37Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:55:14Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-12T15:57:52Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T15:59:44Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-12T16:01:00Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T16:01:55Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-12T16:02:43Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-07-12T16:03:44Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-12T16:04:35Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-12T16:05:46Z pie_ joined #lisp 2015-07-12T16:07:19Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T16:09:21Z torpig quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T16:09:39Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Surprising. 2015-07-12T17:40:54Z pjb: it gives error about a lexical variable *it*. IMO, it's a conformity bug. 2015-07-12T17:41:59Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-12T17:45:36Z Bike: well with has to establish a new binding, right? 2015-07-12T17:46:04Z pjb: It looks like all implementations shadow the specialness of the with variables! 2015-07-12T17:46:17Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-12T17:46:37Z pjb: Bike: special symbols always get dynamic bindings! Or so I thought. It looks like loop with would be the way to shadow a special declaration. 2015-07-12T17:47:49Z Bike: (locally (declare (special *it*)) (let ((*it* 4)) (f))) => f fails, because the let binding is lexical 2015-07-12T17:47:57Z pjb: (defmacro lexical-let ((&rest bindings) &body body) `(loop ,@(mapcan (lambda (binding) (if (cdr binding) (list :with (first binding) := (second binding)) (list :with (first binding)))) bindings) :repeat 1 :do ,@body)) 2015-07-12T17:48:09Z pjb: Bike: yes, and this is extra-ordinary! 2015-07-12T17:48:21Z Bike: no, it's normal. 2015-07-12T17:48:27Z Bike: nothing to do with loop, even. 2015-07-12T17:48:40Z pjb: Ok. I thought that the special declaration would go down the scopes. 2015-07-12T17:49:03Z pjb: So you will have to declare it special globally. 2015-07-12T17:49:05Z Bike: if something's globally special it's different. it's kind of confusing... 2015-07-12T17:49:20Z CapeX joined #lisp 2015-07-12T17:49:32Z pjb: Yes. 2015-07-12T17:49:33Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-12T17:49:49Z Bike: it's in clhs special, though. "A special declaration does not affect inner bindings of a var; the inner bindings implicitly shadow a special declaration and must be explicitly re-declared to be special." 2015-07-12T17:50:07Z pjb: (declaim (special *it*)) (loop :with *it* = 42 :repeat 3 :collect (f)) --> (42 42 42) 2015-07-12T17:50:12Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T17:50:16Z Bike: oh, yeah, it's specially mentioned that it works different with a proclamation 2015-07-12T17:50:24Z Bike: "When used in a proclamation, a special declaration specifier applies to all bindings as well as to all references of the mentioned variables." 2015-07-12T17:50:32Z Bike: that is pretty weird. need a declare lexical 2015-07-12T17:50:56Z ggole: That's a strange feature. 2015-07-12T17:51:01Z Bike: or better yet just have a special dynamic let, but whatever 2015-07-12T17:51:03Z pjb: Bike: the thing is that loop is specified in a way that doesn't ensure a place for declaration about the look variables. 2015-07-12T17:51:16Z Bike: yeah, i get that. 2015-07-12T17:51:32Z Bike: probably i'd just use a let outside the loop, really 2015-07-12T17:51:34Z pjb: So the only way is to have a global declaim. 2015-07-12T17:51:54Z pjb: Yes, it will be simplier. 2015-07-12T17:52:24Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-12T17:53:39Z CapeX is now known as OpeX 2015-07-12T17:54:47Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T18:02:17Z yati quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-12T18:06:31Z tajjada quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-12T18:09:47Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-12T18:10:51Z gacepa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-12T18:11:32Z pjb: And otherwise, if you want to keep using take to make rotations in a non-destructive way, then you can do it without a circular list, but using (append ls ls). 2015-07-12T18:12:43Z pllx joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:14:44Z contrapunctus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T18:15:31Z OpeX quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-12T18:15:35Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:18:06Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-12T18:18:51Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:24:58Z gacepa joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:25:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:26:00Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:26:12Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T18:28:01Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T18:29:35Z mlrutherford quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T18:30:45Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T18:31:17Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T18:34:22Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:38:15Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:39:03Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:39:17Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-12T18:39:27Z francogrex: how may I optimize this further? http://paste.lisp.org/display/151466 2015-07-12T18:40:13Z francogrex: the use of generic * comes from this (the integer (* g g)), but I cannot restrict this to fixnum and remain correct 2015-07-12T18:40:36Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:42:04Z shka: francogrex: type number? 2015-07-12T18:42:46Z shka: also, this style looks weird 2015-07-12T18:43:15Z pjb: francogrex: so g = (isqrt (the fixnum n) in the end right? 2015-07-12T18:43:17Z francogrex: huh? what are you talking about type number? 2015-07-12T18:43:31Z shka: return-from is weird imho 2015-07-12T18:43:32Z pjb: francogrex: you should probably consider most-positive-fixnu. 2015-07-12T18:43:43Z shka: francogrex: fixnum is not only number type 2015-07-12T18:44:19Z pjb: (let ((g #.(isqrt (1+ most-positive-fixnu)))) or something. Then you should be able to prove that (<= g (isqrt most-positive-fixnum)) and therefore that (* g g) is a fixnum. 2015-07-12T18:44:32Z francogrex: shka are you being serious? please wait 2015-07-12T18:44:56Z shka: well, if you can 2015-07-12T18:45:06Z shka: 't stick to the fixnum, don't use fixnum 2015-07-12T18:45:15Z pjb: fixnum bignum integer ratio short-float single-float double-float long-float float real complex number 2015-07-12T18:45:16Z shka: ;-) 2015-07-12T18:45:27Z shka: exactly 2015-07-12T18:45:44Z p_l: shka: but if 99.99% of ops will be in fixnum space... 2015-07-12T18:46:07Z shka: well, he wants to keep it fast, so i guess you are right 2015-07-12T18:46:09Z pjb: francogrex: first bug you have is that you don't test for (minusp n). 2015-07-12T18:46:11Z francogrex: pjb: my aim was a rêplacement of isqrt 2015-07-12T18:46:12Z p_l: that said, you could detect integer overflow and typecase it 2015-07-12T18:46:43Z pjb: francogrex: most-positive-fixnum is a constant, but it change depending on the implementation. You can replace #. by a literal constant. 2015-07-12T18:48:35Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T18:49:24Z francogrex: pjb yes, (g most-positive-fixnum) and (the fixnum (* g g)) ... ok did it 2015-07-12T18:49:38Z francogrex: n will never be -ve in the program 2015-07-12T18:49:52Z francogrex: now it flows 2015-07-12T18:50:14Z pjb: Then (declare (type n (and fixnum (integer 0)))) 2015-07-12T18:50:56Z MoO3 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:53:12Z francogrex: pjb: here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151466#1 beats C in speed. (with a little help from stassats earlier) 2015-07-12T18:53:32Z francogrex: why is he away from #lisp 2015-07-12T18:53:34Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T18:54:18Z pjb: But it's wrong. You have to start with g<=√most-positive-fixnum. 2015-07-12T18:55:40Z pjb: If you don't want to use at read time isqrt, then you will have to (let ((g #+(and ccl :64-bit-host) 1073741823 #+(and ccl :32-bit-host nnnn #+(and clisp 32-bit) … #+(and clisp 64-bit) … etc.))) …) 2015-07-12T18:55:44Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T18:55:49Z francogrex: right 2015-07-12T18:56:33Z pjb: I don't feel that #.(isqrt most-positive-fixnum) be cheating. 2015-07-12T18:57:50Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T18:58:41Z pjb: That gives you a function working in (ceiling (integer-length most-positive-fixnum) 2) loops. It seems to me that there are suites that converge faster to compute square roots. 2015-07-12T18:59:14Z pjb: (but then, perhaps they require floating points, I don't know). 2015-07-12T19:01:02Z francogrex: there are even faster than this that I stole from here: http://www.codecodex.com/wiki/Calculate_an_integer_square_root#C 2015-07-12T19:02:23Z francogrex: how does C guarantee the type of g*g ? 2015-07-12T19:02:38Z shka: francogrex: it does not 2015-07-12T19:02:47Z shka: it just hopes for the best ;-) 2015-07-12T19:03:13Z shka: francogrex: basicly, it can overflow 2015-07-12T19:04:09Z francogrex: shka: yes there it can overflow 2015-07-12T19:04:35Z shka: francogrex: rule of thumb: lisp values correctness over speed 2015-07-12T19:06:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T19:06:42Z pjb: overflow is just one possibility. The ANSI C standard just leaves it undefined. Anything could happen. An implementation of C on a controlled environment machine like a lisp implementation could very well signal an overflow error just like in lisp. Or launch a German Patriot missile toward your general direction. 2015-07-12T19:07:39Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:08:10Z cluck: C is P&P 2015-07-12T19:08:18Z cluck: program and pray 2015-07-12T19:09:28Z shka: well, precisly 2015-07-12T19:09:49Z shka: practical speaking, it will most likely overflow, though 2015-07-12T19:10:05Z cluck: (and then you fall flat on your face because neptune and dennis ritchie are dead and there are no more C gods) 2015-07-12T19:10:12Z shka: and that's fine, standard allows that 2015-07-12T19:10:39Z shka: cluck: no, simply some airplane will crash or something… 2015-07-12T19:10:53Z shka: or rocket will explode 2015-07-12T19:11:21Z p_l: shka: they tend to use Ada or manually coding in all the checks 2015-07-12T19:11:22Z cluck: even babies can say ada! \o/ 2015-07-12T19:11:29Z MoO3: I'm afraid that computer science has suffered from the popularity of the Internet. 2015-07-12T19:11:34Z shka: p_l: remember that Ariane start? 2015-07-12T19:11:47Z cluck: p_l: hivemind 2015-07-12T19:11:50Z p_l: shka: tgat was human failure 2015-07-12T19:12:03Z shka: sure it was 2015-07-12T19:12:27Z shka: but in the end, human are responsible for creation of all software 2015-07-12T19:13:06Z shka: so either we will accept that human nature, or do same thing all over again 2015-07-12T19:13:35Z Shinmera: p_l: There was a recent story about airplanes being grounded due to a bug that would have lead to a complete lockdown of the plane if it had run without a reboot for a number of days (I'll let you guess why) 2015-07-12T19:13:46Z shka: seriously, programming is any " 2015-07-12T19:13:49Z shka: art" 2015-07-12T19:13:52Z shka: for a reason 2015-07-12T19:14:04Z p_l: yes, but in this case you can deliminate between "software worked okay but was told to do idiotic thing" and "software bug" 2015-07-12T19:14:24Z shka: Shinmera: yup 2015-07-12T19:14:36Z shka: and recently airplane crashed because, basicly overflow 2015-07-12T19:14:40Z p_l: Shinmera: yeah, I know, someone probably got a new one torn for that 2015-07-12T19:15:03Z p_l: shka: what overflow-related crash? 2015-07-12T19:15:15Z Shinmera: Can't wait for unix time to overflow. 2015-07-12T19:15:16Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T19:15:29Z shka: some military airplane, can't remember right now, sorry 2015-07-12T19:15:37Z p_l: A400 was a failure in linking/loading, not overflow 2015-07-12T19:15:54Z shka: really? 2015-07-12T19:16:05Z shka: hmm, i was pretty sure that it was overflow 2015-07-12T19:16:32Z p_l: essentially, the FADEC software was loaded without crucial performance data, IIRC 2015-07-12T19:16:35Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:16:41Z shka: i see 2015-07-12T19:17:31Z p_l: making it go bonkers when it tried to do certain calculations which caused a failure of 3 engines in a cascade 2015-07-12T19:17:44Z shka: well, this doesn't change that i STILL think that saying "it was human fault" is wrong route 2015-07-12T19:17:57Z shka: since, yes: humans make mistakes 2015-07-12T19:18:09Z shka: and they will always be 2015-07-12T19:18:40Z p_l: shka: in this case it's a question of whether the mistake was in linker itself or person linking/loading the software made a mistake 2015-07-12T19:20:11Z shka: oh, certainly, but in the end wasn't it scenario that should be considered in the system? 2015-07-12T19:20:21Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-12T19:21:26Z p_l: complex issue. do you think SBCL's load function should check if you forgot raw data in files you load? 2015-07-12T19:21:41Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:21:55Z pllx quit (Quit: ++) 2015-07-12T19:21:58Z MoO3: Safran 2015-07-12T19:22:49Z shka: p_l: hard question 2015-07-12T19:23:14Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:23:16Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:23:30Z p_l: the linker software on case of A400 would be implicated of the command to include the data was present but the data ended up malformed in the final output 2015-07-12T19:24:03Z p_l: however, the people preparing the build would be the source of issue of they forgot to include it 2015-07-12T19:24:04Z shka: p_l: i think that in mission critical stuff, everything should be checked 2015-07-12T19:24:20Z p_l: and so on for all steps 2015-07-12T19:24:53Z p_l: shka: but the compiler/linker is not a superintelligent strong AI 2015-07-12T19:25:16Z shka: at some point, it should become 2015-07-12T19:25:20Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:25:28Z p_l: so the problem is either with process ("human") or a bug in tools 2015-07-12T19:25:36Z shka: no 2015-07-12T19:25:39Z shka: it is the same 2015-07-12T19:26:31Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T19:26:35Z p_l: ultimately yes, but that's not the kind of ultimate you need it want when trying to prevent further accidents 2015-07-12T19:26:51Z shka: i disagree 2015-07-12T19:26:55Z p_l: s/it/or/ 2015-07-12T19:27:03Z francogrex: I even wrote this in asm code but not faster than the mainstream one: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151466#2 2015-07-12T19:28:10Z MoO3: harder better faster stronger 2015-07-12T19:28:33Z p_l: shka: i would give a longer talk on the difference between "human error" and otherwise in accident investigation but I am on the phone in shaky bus on a country road ;-) 2015-07-12T19:28:49Z shka: francogrex: wow, you really wanted to beat current implementation? 2015-07-12T19:28:51Z shka: nice 2015-07-12T19:29:01Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-12T19:29:31Z shka: p_l: oh, right 2015-07-12T19:29:33Z shka: carry one 2015-07-12T19:29:55Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T19:30:15Z p_l: but if necessary, I might bother my father for authoritative source on the definition 2015-07-12T19:30:16Z francogrex: shka: not so nice, it's not what I wanted :( I want the fastest possible. 2015-07-12T19:30:41Z Bike: sbcl's is, you know, fast. it's got a nice algorithm and everything 2015-07-12T19:30:52Z shka: francogrex: can you please said what EXCTALY what you want to do? 2015-07-12T19:30:57Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T19:31:11Z shka: since, sbcl was developed by experts 2015-07-12T19:31:20Z yati1 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:31:24Z shka: since 80s? 2015-07-12T19:31:28Z shka: dunno 2015-07-12T19:31:43Z shka: anyway, it is really not that simple to beat sbcl 2015-07-12T19:31:45Z Bike: plus alien-funcall isn't trivial. 2015-07-12T19:32:20Z beslyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T19:33:14Z shka: francogrex: if you really want to get exactly what sbcl already does, it may be impossible 2015-07-12T19:33:43Z yati quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-12T19:34:01Z yati1 is now known as yati 2015-07-12T19:34:19Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-12T19:34:19Z shka: though, if you want simply aproximination, perhaps we can rethink it 2015-07-12T19:35:57Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-12T19:37:43Z shka: francogrex: it's not like i'm trying to get you down, you know ;-) 2015-07-12T19:41:20Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T19:41:28Z francogrex: trying to beat that shit in terms of speed: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151466#3 2015-07-12T19:41:34Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:42:32Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:44:01Z shka: francogrex: uh, what for? 2015-07-12T19:44:17Z francogrex: fun what else 2015-07-12T19:44:31Z shka: oh, ok 2015-07-12T19:44:42Z shka: well, i never liked optimizing lisp 2015-07-12T19:45:03Z francogrex: it can be a lotta fun 2015-07-12T19:45:35Z shka happily mapcars, reduces and conses memory 2015-07-12T19:46:21Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:46:24Z Bike: "optimizing lisp" by writing your own machine code is pretty ridiculous 2015-07-12T19:47:04Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-12T19:47:17Z francogrex: Bike: yes, but i was using all options available to me... I think what I posted is the wrong way though I should try using sbcl vops 2015-07-12T19:47:33Z shka: francogrex: probabbly yes, but unless i really need performance, i'm sticking to my style 2015-07-12T19:47:46Z shka: it is not fastest way 2015-07-12T19:47:47Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-12T19:47:51Z shka: but it is pleasant to read 2015-07-12T19:47:59Z shka: and easy to understand 2015-07-12T19:48:18Z shka: oh, add clos to it 2015-07-12T19:48:22Z shka: lot's of it 2015-07-12T19:48:52Z shka: i may end up with something slower, but it is easier to extend and modify 2015-07-12T19:49:06Z shka: and those are points I really care about 2015-07-12T19:50:51Z shka: francogrex: and besides, in real applications, it is usually good idea to optimize at last stage 2015-07-12T19:51:03Z Bike: just look at sb-alien:alien-funcall, it's not just a jump. if you want it to go fast you shouldn't try to do it in a foreign land 2015-07-12T19:52:31Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2015-07-12T19:52:31Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:53:10Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:53:28Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-12T19:55:38Z shka: i would happily complain more about performance obsessions, but i better go to bed 2015-07-12T19:55:45Z shka: good night all 2015-07-12T19:55:48Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-12T19:56:05Z francogrex quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-12T19:57:32Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T19:57:40Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T19:59:12Z k-stz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T19:59:24Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T19:59:27Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:01:06Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:02:32Z ggole quit 2015-07-12T20:03:38Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:03:42Z francogrex: I was cut 2015-07-12T20:04:06Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:06:55Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:08:53Z gordius joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:08:54Z yati quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T20:09:39Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:12:59Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T20:13:31Z francogrex: NickServ is a bitch sometimes 2015-07-12T20:14:20Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T20:14:34Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:15:30Z gordius left #lisp 2015-07-12T20:15:46Z gordius joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:16:50Z gordius left #lisp 2015-07-12T20:17:07Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:22:40Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-12T20:24:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:24:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-12T20:24:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:24:24Z Brozo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:24:31Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T20:26:25Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:26:56Z LiamH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T20:30:53Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-12T20:33:05Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-12T20:33:12Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:37:06Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-12T20:47:17Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-12T20:48:08Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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It's rare a lisp application that loads fasl on launch. 2015-07-12T21:56:57Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-12T21:56:57Z pjb: In most cases, it's even simplier to load the resources in the image before save-lisp-and-die, so even the resources are included there. 2015-07-12T21:58:04Z |3b| hasn't (and isn't going to) look up the details of that specific crash, so no idea if the motivations of the software design that lead to it would have caused similarly bad design in CL or not 2015-07-12T21:58:41Z pjb: |3b|: we're in #lisp, let's say it would have prevented it. 2015-07-12T21:59:11Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-07-12T21:59:39Z |3b|: no, lets say things that aren't obviously wrong leading people to reject the true things we might say as well 2015-07-12T21:59:47Z pjb: Just like having used CL would have prevented the bug in Ariane-5 (because in CL, functions are generic and switch from fixnum to bignum automatically), and in the Martian sonde (because in CL you would easily have defined a magnitude type with units and automatic unit conversion). 2015-07-12T21:59:48Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T22:01:06Z |3b|: you would only "easily" do that if you knew you needed to 2015-07-12T22:01:27Z |3b|: and if that was in the spec it would have been done in another language or someone would have made sure the units matches 2015-07-12T22:01:55Z bola joined #lisp 2015-07-12T22:02:55Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T22:03:20Z |3b|: and are you sure CL would even fit on the bit that overflowed in ariane5? 2015-07-12T22:03:45Z |3b|: and that someone wouldn't have dumped a "the fixnum" or whatever on it anyway? 2015-07-12T22:04:08Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-12T22:06:13Z pjb: |3b|: again, this is the source of the problem! If they'd used Common Lisp, they'd have to use bigger computers, so they wouldn't shave bits and the problems wouldn't occur in the first place. And if that means they have to put 1% more fuel, then they'll still come in the black, given the number of crashes avoided! 2015-07-12T22:06:39Z |3b| meant "bits" as in "components" rather than 0/1 2015-07-12T22:06:40Z pjb: What I'm saying is that we should build things less brittle, with more functional redundancy. 2015-07-12T22:07:07Z pjb: bit as in 0/1; What crashed the Ariane-5 is basically the bits they shaved on the Ariane-3. 2015-07-12T22:07:22Z pjb: Of course this will translate into components and mass. 2015-07-12T22:07:41Z |3b| is saying that CL doesn't magically provide that, and saying it does will just make people dismiss all the things it does do as also being hyperbole 2015-07-12T22:07:41Z pjb: But then, I don't see that 64-bit computers are heavier than 32-bit or 16-bit computers. 2015-07-12T22:08:06Z pjb: I'm saying exactly the contrary: using CL magically provide that, because of the change of attitude. 2015-07-12T22:08:07Z |3b|: are they as well shielded? 2015-07-12T22:08:10Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-12T22:08:48Z |3b|: so why are you always complaining about people forcing optimization settings if their attitude was magically changed when they started using CL? 2015-07-12T22:09:00Z pjb: Exactly for that. 2015-07-12T22:09:14Z pjb: Because they don't let their attitude magically changed by CL. They're just evil. 2015-07-12T22:09:46Z |3b|: so in other words, the evil people would still have crashed the rocket, plane, etc 2015-07-12T22:10:00Z |3b|: and using CL would have had 0 effect 2015-07-12T22:10:51Z bola: Guys, is there a difference between #'(lambda ..) and (lambda ...) ? 2015-07-12T22:11:18Z pjb: the first is a list of two elements starting with the symbol CL:FUNCTION the second is a list of more or less elements, starting with the symbol lambda. 2015-07-12T22:11:26Z Bike: bola: the latter macroexpands into the former. 2015-07-12T22:11:30Z pjb: assuming the stadnard reader macro #'. 2015-07-12T22:11:43Z pjb: Only if you call macroexpand with them as argument… 2015-07-12T22:12:25Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-12T22:12:30Z Bike: also assuming you're using common lisp on a computer and the laws of physics haven't changed in such a way that the computer becomes inoperable 2015-07-12T22:13:15Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-12T22:14:09Z bola: so thee's really no difference... in practice at least 2015-07-12T22:14:10Z bola: ty 2015-07-12T22:15:48Z antoszka: bola: The difference is in more or less verbose conveying your intentions to whoever is reading the code :) 2015-07-12T22:16:00Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T22:16:14Z Beluki quit (Quit: Beluki) 2015-07-12T22:16:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-12T22:16:34Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-12T22:17:12Z |3b|: bola: the evaluate to the same thing, but differ before that point, or in situations where they are not evaluated 2015-07-12T22:17:13Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-12T22:17:50Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-12T22:18:18Z |3b|: or aren't evaluated under the usual rules, for example ((lambda ())) is valid code while (#(lambda ())) isn't 2015-07-12T22:18:45Z bola: uh... interesting 2015-07-12T22:19:23Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T22:19:23Z nyef: ((lambda (x) (+ x 3)) 39) => something. (#'(lambda (x) (+ x 3)) 39) => syntax error. 2015-07-12T22:19:34Z bola: Why is that last one so? 2015-07-12T22:20:11Z |3b|: because CL has special evaluation rules for the first element of a list being evaluated, which specifically include (lambda ...) but don't include (function (lambda ...)) 2015-07-12T22:20:12Z nyef: Because a list beginning with FUNCTION is not a legal name for a function. 2015-07-12T22:20:28Z nyef: ... That, too. 2015-07-12T22:20:59Z bola: oh alright 2015-07-12T22:21:05Z nyef: (Apparently, the lambda expression ISN'T a function name, it just happens to tend to be accepted as a substitute for a function name in a few places.) 2015-07-12T22:21:18Z |3b|: right 2015-07-12T22:22:06Z |3b|: and (setf foo) is a name, but isn't accepted there either i think 2015-07-12T22:22:51Z nyef: Hrm. 2015-07-12T22:23:14Z bola: What? 2015-07-12T22:23:20Z chelseaclinton quit 2015-07-12T22:23:23Z |3b|: clhs 3.1.2.1.2 2015-07-12T22:23:24Z specbot: Conses as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm 2015-07-12T22:23:46Z nyef: Right, yes. 2015-07-12T22:23:59Z nyef: It has to be a symbol naming a function, it's not actually calling for a function name. 2015-07-12T22:24:06Z |3b|: right 2015-07-12T22:24:13Z nyef: Okay. 2015-07-12T22:25:05Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-12T22:26:41Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T22:28:20Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-12T22:33:16Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T22:35:06Z pjb: bola: there's a difference, quite important in practice, and you should be aware of it. 2015-07-12T22:35:31Z pjb: bola: (not (equal '(lambda (x) x) '#'(lambda (x) x))) 2015-07-12T22:36:01Z pjb: ((lambda (x) x) 42) is a valid form (#'(lambda (x) x) 42) produces a program-error when compiled. 2015-07-12T22:36:05Z pjb: etc. 2015-07-12T22:36:14Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-12T22:37:36Z bola: it's all because of the macro expansion, right? 2015-07-12T22:37:46Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-12T22:37:57Z Chippie00 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T22:38:14Z Bike: not in that case, no 2015-07-12T22:38:52Z p_l: pjb: there is no link-time on A400 2015-07-12T22:39:18Z p_l: pjb: The error was *during* creation of the image or loading it 2015-07-12T22:39:37Z p_l doesn't have full report 2015-07-12T22:43:19Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-12T22:43:36Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T22:43:48Z p_l: ah, "torque calibration data" was wiped from three engines' ECU 2015-07-12T22:43:57Z pjb: p_l: ok. So they just installed a botched executable. Indeed, it should have been tested on the ground. It's rather incredible. 2015-07-12T22:44:28Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T22:44:29Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-12T22:44:49Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T22:45:06Z p_l: pjb: essentially, a mistake in assembling the system on the ground that wasn't caught 2015-07-12T22:45:31Z pjb: bola: yes. And macro expansion only happens on the code. When you present a sexp or a form, who's to tell it's code or data? Not me in anycase. Unless your question contains a keyword such as "evaluates", "results" or something that would let us think that you will be using the lisp data as code, it's just a sexp for me. 2015-07-12T22:46:03Z p_l: for more lisp-related stuff, I' veeb looking through Essential *Lisp 2015-07-12T22:46:15Z p_l: pondering if I can push it into GPU :) 2015-07-12T22:46:30Z pjb: p_l: fetch the sources of *lisp. 2015-07-12T22:46:50Z p_l: pjb: the sources are quite useless for the endeavour 2015-07-12T22:47:01Z p_l: the open-source emulator is of more use, IMO 2015-07-12T22:47:23Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-12T22:47:26Z pjb: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/parallel/?searchterm=lisp%20connection%20machine 2015-07-12T22:47:55Z pjb: And change the backend from Connection Machine to GPU. 2015-07-12T22:48:17Z Bike: GPU architecture isn't very similar to the CM's. i found that pretty disappointing when i learned that 2015-07-12T22:48:57Z pjb: The CM is rather unique, but I'd think the processors in the GPU are more powerful than the processors in the CM. 2015-07-12T22:49:09Z gacepa quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-07-12T22:49:10Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-12T22:49:55Z p_l: they both are and aren't 2015-07-12T22:50:06Z Bike: i mean they're not used or arranged in a similar way, so *lisp might be weird or pointless to port 2015-07-12T22:50:15Z p_l: certain behaviours of *lisp would be useless, yes 2015-07-12T22:53:04Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T22:55:03Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T22:57:12Z bola quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T22:59:19Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-12T23:00:36Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T23:01:16Z fweyt joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:01:37Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-12T23:02:36Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:06:10Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:06:25Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T23:09:38Z lisper29 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-12T23:10:47Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T23:14:01Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:15:09Z ghost_runner joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:15:24Z ghost_runner: would i learn more from SICP as a beginner than i would using c? 2015-07-12T23:17:30Z |3b| suspects reading a book and programming in some specific language would teach different things regardless of the book and the language 2015-07-12T23:17:42Z |3b|: so hard to say "more" in either direction 2015-07-12T23:18:20Z |3b|: SICP is a fairly deep computer science text, so probably would teach lots of things you might not discover on your own programming 2015-07-12T23:19:01Z ghost_runner: like, should I study with k&r and learn c or sicp and learn the lisp variant? 2015-07-12T23:19:39Z |3b|: both? 2015-07-12T23:20:11Z |3b|: though this channel is biased towards starting with lisp obviously :) 2015-07-12T23:21:41Z |3b|: or more likely, CL and some easier text 2015-07-12T23:23:00Z ghost_runner: hmm 2015-07-12T23:23:01Z theverbg quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-12T23:23:18Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-07-12T23:28:13Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:28:38Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T23:28:49Z Bike: if you want to learn machine stuff it would probably be better to learn a machine language than C, if that's what you're thinking ("low-level" etc) 2015-07-12T23:28:53Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:31:08Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:31:23Z ghost_runner: Bike: a machine language? like 0010010010 or asm? 2015-07-12T23:31:36Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:32:02Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-12T23:32:33Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:34:04Z abbe: hi 2015-07-12T23:35:05Z ghost_runner left #lisp 2015-07-12T23:35:20Z abbe: if 'defpackage' an already defined package, then are by new changes (e.g. added an 'import-from' block) be applicable, or will they be ignored? 2015-07-12T23:35:44Z Takumo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-12T23:35:59Z abbe: s/^if/if I/ 2015-07-12T23:36:06Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:36:07Z Takumo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-12T23:36:07Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:36:21Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-07-12T23:36:46Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-12T23:36:53Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:36:53Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-12T23:37:01Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:37:12Z Bike: "If defined-package-name already refers to an existing package, the name-to-package mapping for that name is not changed. If the new definition is at variance with the current state of that package, the consequences are undefined" 2015-07-12T23:37:25Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-12T23:37:27Z abbe: hmm 2015-07-12T23:37:36Z abbe: ih! 2015-07-12T23:37:39Z abbe: s/i/o/ 2015-07-12T23:37:41Z abbe: thanks! 2015-07-12T23:37:44Z abbe: I missed that 2015-07-12T23:37:47Z Bike: basically it's undefined. 2015-07-12T23:38:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T23:38:29Z |3b|: probably close enough to what you want for interactive use though 2015-07-12T23:38:44Z abbe: okay 2015-07-12T23:39:00Z abbe: also, should I always be CAPITALIZING symbol/package names, when providing them in string form, like in (:import-form ....) 2015-07-12T23:39:16Z |3b|: though if the change in imports causes symbol conflicts you might get a bunch of errors, so might be easier to delete the package first for big changes 2015-07-12T23:39:16Z nyef: "Undefined" meaning "the committee couldn't agree on any one thing to do because everybody already did things one way or another and didn't want to break their existing code." 2015-07-12T23:39:24Z k-stz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-12T23:39:59Z |3b|: most people use string designators (like uninterned symmbols) to avoid having to think about case 2015-07-12T23:40:14Z |3b|: some people type in upper case strings though 2015-07-12T23:40:18Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-12T23:40:27Z nyef: I just always capitalize, because I leave readtable-case alone and don't care about "modern mode". 2015-07-12T23:40:48Z |3b|: by default the reader converts things to uppercase before doing the lookup, so it won't find names that you specified as lower case 2015-07-12T23:41:18Z abbe: Okay 2015-07-12T23:42:38Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:42:48Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-12T23:42:58Z abbe: also thanks |3b|, use-package, after delete-package now works as expected. 2015-07-12T23:43:02Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:46:11Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-12T23:46:41Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:49:15Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:49:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:50:31Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-12T23:53:04Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:53:07Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-12T23:55:48Z fweyt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T00:05:06Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:05:20Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:06:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-13T00:10:36Z Chippie00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T00:11:59Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:15:41Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:15:48Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:16:23Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:17:23Z rritoch: Is there any official documentation and release of clbuild? I'm coming from clojure, and interested in ABCL, and am looking for a good package manager to assist with compilation and deployment of apps. 2015-07-13T00:19:30Z Bike: rritoch: the package manager that clbuild uses is quicklisp, it's not a package manager itself, i don't think. 2015-07-13T00:20:27Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:21:52Z rritoch: Bike: Ok, thanks. Looking at clbuild is at end of life > https://gitorious.org/clbuild2 2015-07-13T00:22:01Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-13T00:22:40Z nyef: ... That's just gitorious being at end of life. 2015-07-13T00:23:20Z rritoch: Ok, is there any activly maintained version of clbuild ? 2015-07-13T00:24:12Z nyef: Oh! THAT clbuild. 2015-07-13T00:24:19Z nyef: Yeah, don't use that. Use quicklisp instead. 2015-07-13T00:24:33Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T00:24:47Z rritoch: nyef: Ok, thanks. 2015-07-13T00:24:58Z nyef: http://quicklisp.org/ 2015-07-13T00:25:00Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T00:27:58Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-13T00:30:37Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-13T00:34:55Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:38:28Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-13T00:38:42Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-13T00:39:19Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:39:47Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-13T00:41:16Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:41:45Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T00:44:37Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T00:50:39Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T00:51:05Z walter|r quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T00:52:11Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:52:22Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:53:39Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:53:51Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-13T00:56:27Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T01:07:58Z abbe: I'm wondering what's the best way to match the type of class, basically check if object O is of class C: (eql (type-of O) 'C), or there is some built-in function for this ? 2015-07-13T01:08:19Z abbe: s/type of class/type of class of object/ 2015-07-13T01:09:23Z nyef: Are you looking for TYPEP ? 2015-07-13T01:09:26Z nyef: clhs typep 2015-07-13T01:09:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_typep.htm 2015-07-13T01:09:47Z nyef: Or are you specifically looking to exclude subclasses? 2015-07-13T01:10:40Z abbe: 'typep' works for me, thanks 2015-07-13T01:11:26Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:11:27Z nyef: No problem. Good luck with whatever it is you're working on. (-: 2015-07-13T01:11:34Z abbe: also, what do you mean by "are you specifically looking to exclude subclasses?" ? 2015-07-13T01:12:08Z abbe: as i see 'typep' matches all the types in the hierarchy 2015-07-13T01:13:32Z abbe: so an instance of cl-mime:multipart-mime (inherits cl-mime:mime) returns T for both cl-mime:mime, and cl-mime:multipart-mime, but not cl-mime:text-mime, which ofcourse cl-mime:multipart-mime does not inherit from. 2015-07-13T01:13:46Z anonymous_guppy joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:13:47Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:13:53Z nyef: Well, your example with (EQL (CLASS-OF x) (FIND-CLASS 'SOME-CLASS)) would only match direct instances of SOME-CLASS, not subclasses. 2015-07-13T01:14:38Z nyef: In this case, it would match for cl-mime:multipart-mime, but not cl-mime:mime. 2015-07-13T01:15:14Z anonymous_guppy: why is lisp and its family called hackers language 2015-07-13T01:15:15Z nyef: Usually you don't care if you get the base class or a subclass, but given that you were checking TYPE-OF or CLASS-OF directly, I had to ask. 2015-07-13T01:15:16Z abbe: right, although I used `type-of', but 'typep' is what I was looking for. 2015-07-13T01:15:37Z |3b|: anonymous_guppy: it isn't 2015-07-13T01:15:55Z |3b|: (and if it is, you should ask the people who call it that why they choose to do so) 2015-07-13T01:16:02Z abbe: :D 2015-07-13T01:16:21Z anonymous_guppy: it is referred to as hack language by some 2015-07-13T01:16:24Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T01:16:34Z |3b|: well, ask "some" then 2015-07-13T01:16:41Z nyef: I figured you were probably looking for typep, but you could have been trying to do something clever instead, so double-checking was in order. 2015-07-13T01:17:21Z |3b| calls it a good prototyping language, because it is good for prototyping, maybe they mean something similar? 2015-07-13T01:17:28Z anonymous_guppy: do hackers use lisp? 2015-07-13T01:17:41Z anonymous_guppy: or is it hype 2015-07-13T01:17:42Z |3b|: (it is also a good implementation language for that matter) 2015-07-13T01:17:55Z |3b|: yes to both 2015-07-13T01:18:02Z |3b|: and for multiple definitions of hackers 2015-07-13T01:18:06Z Rptx joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:18:14Z |3b|: lots of hackers use other things too 2015-07-13T01:18:17Z |3b|: some use axes 2015-07-13T01:18:23Z nyef: |3b|: Why are you playing with the troll? 2015-07-13T01:18:34Z |3b|: nyef: frustration with cffi? 2015-07-13T01:18:45Z |3b|: or rather with my inability to fix it 2015-07-13T01:18:52Z nyef: Ah. Fair enough. Carry on, then. (-: 2015-07-13T01:19:19Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-13T01:20:26Z anonymous_guppy: crackers use lisp? 2015-07-13T01:20:44Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:20:53Z |3b|: but good point, i should probably stop trolling here, feel free to ask further on #lispcafe if you want me to continue 2015-07-13T01:22:00Z thedud quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-13T01:23:22Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T01:24:19Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:27:03Z nikki93: guys... lisp has spoiled me 2015-07-13T01:27:11Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:27:17Z nikki93: now I can't work in a language where errors crash the whole system and you have to just redo from start and can't 'love code' or repl 2015-07-13T01:27:42Z pjb: abbe: against undefined things, what you can do is to define them! Don't use cl:defpackage, use com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.package:defpackage (but extract it from the com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.package, since there it works with com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.package:package, not with cl:package). 2015-07-13T01:27:45Z anonymous_guppy: haskell seems much better than lisp 2015-07-13T01:27:53Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 2015-07-13T01:28:01Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:28:13Z Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.41.88.9 *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.103.10.199.35 *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.62.149.5 *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.162.208.142 2015-07-13T01:28:16Z Xach has set mode -b *!*@85.101.129.107 2015-07-13T01:28:19Z Xach has set mode +b *!*b80601ea@*.184.6.1.234 2015-07-13T01:28:24Z anonymous_guppy [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (anonymous_guppy) 2015-07-13T01:28:27Z Xach has set mode -o Xach 2015-07-13T01:28:31Z nyef: Xach: Thank you. 2015-07-13T01:28:34Z pjb: abbe: (in-package :cl-user) (shadow 'defpackage) (defmacro defpackage …) #|then:|# (defpackage "A") (defpackage "A" (:use "CL)) ; is defined. 2015-07-13T01:28:39Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T01:28:44Z nyef did not have the energy to try and reverse-troll him. 2015-07-13T01:28:49Z pjb: That was quick! Nice :-) 2015-07-13T01:29:11Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:29:37Z Chippie00 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:30:46Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:31:59Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:32:03Z Xach is kind of looking forward to the next gavino visit 2015-07-13T01:32:44Z abbe: hmm 2015-07-13T01:33:46Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:35:26Z abbe: pjb: what is the difference ? and what did you re-define `defpackage' to ? the same definition as `cl:defpackage' ? 2015-07-13T01:35:27Z nml joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:36:12Z pjb: The difference is that *I* defined the defpackage macro to do exactly what I wanted it to do when the package already exist! 2015-07-13T01:36:23Z abbe: oh, okay 2015-07-13T01:37:01Z abbe: thanks :) 2015-07-13T01:37:11Z pjb: Notice that most implementations do something sane. But as mentionned this can involve restarts. And you may actually get different results depending on the implementation. So if you want to avoid that, you can define your own defpackage macro (you'd use it only while developping, assumedly). 2015-07-13T01:38:43Z abbe: right, I get that now, it was only one-off thing, I missed that line in the clhs documentation. thanks for elaborating. 2015-07-13T01:40:31Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:41:19Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:43:46Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T01:44:05Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-13T01:47:37Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T01:48:43Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T01:50:30Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:55:24Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T01:55:40Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:57:00Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:58:06Z metaphysician joined #lisp 2015-07-13T01:58:54Z wobh: Anyone here ever have to use (defmethod foo ((eql null)) ...) for something? 2015-07-13T02:00:12Z pjb: (typep nil 'null) --> t 2015-07-13T02:00:13Z |3b| probably does (defmethod ((eql (eql nil))) instead, and would hit whoever named the argument EQL in the first place 2015-07-13T02:00:22Z pjb: (foo nil) 2015-07-13T02:00:33Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T02:00:50Z |3b|: and yes, i do have methods specialized on the value NIL (or the class NULL) 2015-07-13T02:00:56Z jamesf joined #lisp 2015-07-13T02:01:07Z pjb: wobh: dispatching on nil is a common idiom, when you want to process a list with a generic function, given that list is not a class! 2015-07-13T02:01:34Z |3b|: also when you want to distinguish it from something dispatching on symbols 2015-07-13T02:01:38Z pjb: (defmethod foo ((self null)) (print 'done)) (defmethod foo ((self cons)) (print (car self)) (foo (cdr self))) 2015-07-13T02:01:56Z Xach: pjb: list is a class 2015-07-13T02:02:18Z pjb: Oops, yes. It is. 2015-07-13T02:02:30Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-13T02:02:37Z pjb: Well, when you want to believe you're programming in haskell :-) 2015-07-13T02:03:21Z pjb: (defgeneric foo (x) (:method ((self null)) 'done) (:method ((self cons)) (thing (car self) (foo (cdr self))))) 2015-07-13T02:08:15Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-13T02:09:26Z dafunktion quit 2015-07-13T02:10:05Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-13T02:11:57Z wobh: Well that's a lot more convenient than the "null object" pattern. We've been discussing it at work (using Ruby) and I've been thinking about why nil doesn't seem so problematic in CL. This evening it it occured to me you can do defmethod on nil no problem at all. 2015-07-13T02:13:09Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T02:14:08Z |3b|: just make sure you aren't thinking of CL methods in terms of belonging to objects, since they are independent 2015-07-13T02:14:25Z wobh: definitely. 2015-07-13T02:15:53Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T02:22:59Z wobh: That reminds me of a tangential thing about CL types and classes. I was rereading William Cook's essay on abstract data types and I thought about how it works in CL. 2015-07-13T02:26:08Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-13T02:26:09Z abbe: I just finished writing my CL script, and now I look at it, it's super ugly/messy, esp. with long function names, badly indented code 2015-07-13T02:26:24Z wobh: The way I understand Cook's definitions, it seems like CL classes might be more like abstract types (if you define an algebra of methds) and CL types might be more like classes (having a characteristic function). 2015-07-13T02:27:00Z Bike: uh, like an indicator function? 2015-07-13T02:27:21Z wobh: But it's likely I don't understand either Cook or CL types and classes. 2015-07-13T02:27:22Z abbe: Is there any document with some guidelines/tips, that could help me write good liking code 2015-07-13T02:27:32Z abbe: s/likin/lookin/ 2015-07-13T02:27:47Z Bike: lisp types are just sets, classes are more organized/restricted as a graph 2015-07-13T02:28:10Z |3b|: generally "correct" CL indentation is considered "how emacs does it" 2015-07-13T02:28:32Z |3b|: (with some help from slime contribs in some specific cases) 2015-07-13T02:28:40Z abbe: well, yeah, but super long method names, it becomes a mess pretty soon 2015-07-13T02:28:42Z abbe: let me paste mine 2015-07-13T02:29:40Z wobh: In emacs, definitely use the slime lisp modes. 2015-07-13T02:30:14Z wobh: Unless you're writing elisp. 2015-07-13T02:30:26Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-13T02:30:37Z abbe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151507 2015-07-13T02:31:11Z abbe: it works fine, and looks like it'll need re-factoring 2015-07-13T02:32:03Z nml: It looks too 'nested' 2015-07-13T02:32:07Z abbe: yes :/ 2015-07-13T02:32:20Z wobh: That's a lot of flets. 2015-07-13T02:32:52Z nml: why not break it into top-level defs ? 2015-07-13T02:32:54Z abbe: so how to avoid this ? should I be creating a variable for something that becomes a nested? 2015-07-13T02:33:20Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-13T02:33:42Z Xach: abbe: not related to nesting, but (NOT (NULL X)) can often be written simply X. 2015-07-13T02:33:43Z wobh: You could even move them out of the main function body (flet ... (defun ...)) 2015-07-13T02:34:19Z abbe: I thought since these flet-ed functions are only in use by this 'search-maildir' so maybe should be in its body 2015-07-13T02:34:47Z abbe: Xach: sure, thanks 2015-07-13T02:35:42Z abbe: Is there a document, or guide, that I could follow, before asking folks to review ? 2015-07-13T02:36:37Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T02:36:42Z |3b|: abbe: separate functions are fine, not exporting them lets people know they aren't intended for use outside the package 2015-07-13T02:36:58Z |3b|: and that way you can test them independently and such 2015-07-13T02:37:23Z abbe: oh, okay 2015-07-13T02:38:00Z abbe: so unless I need to take advantage of closures, I should avoid 'flet', something like this ? 2015-07-13T02:38:17Z nml_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T02:39:03Z |3b|: if you think it is making your function too big/messy, then it probably is 2015-07-13T02:39:10Z nml_: when I encounter such kind of problems, I usually go to read others' code. 2015-07-13T02:39:10Z nml quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-13T02:39:11Z nml_ is now known as nml 2015-07-13T02:39:12Z |3b|: if it isn't, keep it 2015-07-13T02:39:36Z abbe: okay 2015-07-13T02:40:17Z wobh: I think flet in the function body is really helpful for cases like the lambda you're using with mapc. 2015-07-13T02:41:29Z abbe: yes, should have moved mapc lambda to a named function instead 2015-07-13T02:41:37Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-07-13T02:41:58Z |3b|: also consider if there are some parts of that function that might be independently useful, like "do something for each mail in maildir" and "download the attachments for specified messages" 2015-07-13T02:42:12Z wobh: It's a little bit long, kind of an edge case, really, but if it were longer it would be kind of awkward. Broken out and named it would make the mapc form easier to understand 2015-07-13T02:42:19Z |3b|: (and why is something called SEARCH-MAILDIR downloading attachments? 2015-07-13T02:42:19Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-13T02:42:50Z |3b| would expect it to return a list of matching mails or something 2015-07-13T02:43:24Z abbe: |3b|: right, I wasn't careful about naming, I was only trying to see if searching part works, when it worked I kept on adding to it, without fixing its name. 2015-07-13T02:44:10Z abbe: also, any advice about indentinng these long lines, courtesy: long function calls involving long names, e.g. make-pathname, or with-open-file ? 2015-07-13T02:44:19Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-13T02:44:26Z wobh: Another case for flet 2015-07-13T02:44:28Z |3b|: those aren't long names :p 2015-07-13T02:44:35Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-13T02:44:49Z abbe: yeah, by CL standards, not long 2015-07-13T02:46:56Z nml: It's not even long by C or C++ standard 2015-07-13T02:49:04Z renopt joined #lisp 2015-07-13T02:52:23Z nyef: Mmm. It's not update-instance-for-redefined-class, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were longer names in the spec (though I don't recall offhand if there are or not). 2015-07-13T02:54:21Z wobh: I like the slightly redundant ones: default-pathname-defaults, broadcast-stream-streams, ... 2015-07-13T02:57:51Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-13T02:58:37Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-13T02:59:27Z wobh: Norvig and Pittman have a pretty good style guide in the form of slides for a talk. 2015-07-13T03:00:07Z wobh: Google's style guide 2015-07-13T03:00:23Z wobh: for common lisp also has some good advice. 2015-07-13T03:00:41Z theos: google doesnt like CL. they only love python 2015-07-13T03:00:56Z wobh: (and a couple things I remember thinking were really weird, but I don't remember what they were) 2015-07-13T03:01:54Z wobh: be that as it may: https://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml 2015-07-13T03:02:46Z wobh: Reisbeck's is short and sweet: http://cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/lisp-style.html 2015-07-13T03:03:47Z wobh: http://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf 2015-07-13T03:07:55Z |3b| can't decide how i feel about writing (flet ((foo (a b) #1#)) ...) 2015-07-13T03:08:03Z Brozo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T03:08:12Z abbe: Thanks 2015-07-13T03:08:39Z |3b|: it is inside (macrolet ((bar (a b) #1=`(...))) ) 2015-07-13T03:08:52Z wobh: where is that? 2015-07-13T03:09:18Z |3b|: that flet? in the code i'm writing 2015-07-13T03:09:29Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:10:03Z wobh: ah 2015-07-13T03:10:03Z |3b|: trying to avoid duplicating code between all the various CFFI extension hooks, some of which run directly and some of which return code 2015-07-13T03:11:00Z |3b|: the macrolet avoids duplication between the 2 runtime functions, then i need the flet for the compile-time functions, and the #1=, #1# to avoid duplication between those 2015-07-13T03:11:12Z phf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T03:11:36Z phf joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:11:37Z |3b|: though at that point i guess i could just make the variables match and use #1# for all the uses :/ 2015-07-13T03:11:53Z phf quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T03:11:53Z phf joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:12:44Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-13T03:12:58Z |3b|: maybe i should write a macro to define all the variants at once 2015-07-13T03:13:12Z |3b|: that might have the same effect more cleanly 2015-07-13T03:13:28Z wobh: maybe that's a case for a `with-` type of macro. 2015-07-13T03:13:54Z |3b|: not really 2015-07-13T03:14:15Z |3b|: 'def' type might work though 2015-07-13T03:15:07Z |3b|: (define-cffi-translators (var1 var2) read-form write-form) or something 2015-07-13T03:22:47Z mlrutherford quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T03:22:57Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:23:21Z cpopell4 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T03:24:17Z pie_ quit (Quit: pie_) 2015-07-13T03:24:31Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T03:24:46Z pie_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:24:50Z pie_ left #lisp 2015-07-13T03:28:04Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T03:32:50Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T03:34:23Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T03:36:52Z pinterface: |3b|: Do you actually need to define all the variants? IIRC, #'translate-to/from-foreign are mostly called via the default expansion of expand-to/from-foreign, so if you override the expand*s can you not skip the translate*s? 2015-07-13T03:37:22Z cheryllium quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 39.0/20150630154324]) 2015-07-13T03:37:33Z pinterface: Though it's been a few years, so my memory and/or comprehension is probably rather fuzzy by now. 2015-07-13T03:38:41Z |3b|: pinterface: passing structures by values makes things much more complicated, particularly if you don't want it doing a bunch of extra runtime dispatch for no reason :/ 2015-07-13T03:39:06Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T03:39:28Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:39:40Z arpunk quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T03:39:40Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:39:41Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:40:02Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:40:41Z cpopell4 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:40:44Z |3b|: possibly translate-to-foreign and translate-into-foreign-memory is enough if you don't mind the extra runtime cost, i don't remember what works and what doesn't at this point :/ 2015-07-13T03:42:41Z |3b|: but then if you want to use expand-to-foreign to get mem-ref without runtime dispatch, you also need to define cffi::expand-to-foreign-dyn-indirect to avoid bugs (or to work around API flaws, not sure which at this point) 2015-07-13T03:46:14Z pinterface: Hrm... apparently I may have just lived with the run-time costs (looks like I don't have a lot of expand-to/from-foreigns). 2015-07-13T03:46:51Z pinterface: Pretty sure fsbv got merged into mainline CFFI like...the week after my CFFI-using stuff went on hiatus, so I've not experienced the ways in which that's changed things. 2015-07-13T03:47:57Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T03:49:13Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:49:24Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-13T03:49:49Z wooden joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:49:49Z wooden quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T03:49:49Z wooden joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:50:38Z |3b|: pinterface: unfortunately it seems a bit broken :( 2015-07-13T03:50:51Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-13T03:51:18Z pinterface: Aw. Sad! :( 2015-07-13T03:51:36Z |3b|: doesn't help that the extension APIs haven't evolved quite coherently 2015-07-13T03:52:05Z beach: nyef: Congratulations to the progress on NQ-CLIM. 2015-07-13T03:52:11Z nyef: Thanks. 2015-07-13T03:52:32Z nyef: I'm rapidly getting to the point where the worst pain is the lack of proper event handling. 2015-07-13T03:52:36Z theos: morning beach 2015-07-13T03:52:38Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-13T03:53:08Z |3b|: converting lisp data to C data in foreign memory has been mixed with filtering lisp data in the translate-*/expand-* functions, and the fsbv stuff needs them separate 2015-07-13T03:53:46Z |3b|: and existing code uses both functions, so i'm not sure it can be fixed without breaking existing code 2015-07-13T03:54:13Z |3b|: (or without just requiring user code to define lots of similar methods) 2015-07-13T03:54:28Z madrik joined #lisp 2015-07-13T03:56:04Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-13T04:02:39Z pinterface: Well, it wouldn't be the first time thing-added-later felt a little grafted-on, however unfortunate. 2015-07-13T04:04:27Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-13T04:04:43Z |3b|: yeah :/ 2015-07-13T04:06:58Z |3b| collapsed under the combination of ways you would want to translate types X ways you would want to use types X API entry points X ways the various APIs interact internally and gave up on fixing it for now :( 2015-07-13T04:07:20Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-13T04:07:54Z |3b|: X not breaking the existing uses 2015-07-13T04:09:51Z pinterface: CFFI is definitely a vast and complex system. Probably necessarily so, but I can't imagine trying to keep it all in one's head. Ample whiteboard space probably helps. 2015-07-13T04:11:23Z |3b|: yeah 2015-07-13T04:11:57Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T04:12:45Z rritoch quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-13T04:13:00Z Chippie00 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-13T04:13:17Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-13T04:13:55Z |3b|: this macro makes my brain hurt 2015-07-13T04:15:58Z |3b|: `(let ((,',x ...)) ,(let ((,x ',x)) ,foo) ,',x)) 2015-07-13T04:16:00Z Rptx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T04:16:19Z Bike: you are dabbling with forces beyond your ken........... 2015-07-13T04:16:42Z |3b| isn't sure that is an improvement of the macrolet #1= flet #1# thing, though at least it only needs to happen once 2015-07-13T04:17:00Z nyef: Bike: Is that what happens when Barbie is unfaithful? 2015-07-13T04:17:11Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-13T04:17:38Z loke: |3b|: that can't be the full macro 2015-07-13T04:17:49Z |3b|: loke: no, just one of the worse parts 2015-07-13T04:17:50Z loke: there is only one level of ` while there are double-instances of , 2015-07-13T04:18:02Z loke: You got the whole pne? 2015-07-13T04:18:04Z loke: one 2015-07-13T04:18:20Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-13T04:18:43Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T04:18:43Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-13T04:18:44Z nyef: |3b|: That can't be right... Does it even READ cleanly under SBCL these days? 2015-07-13T04:19:39Z |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/+38WT whole thing 2015-07-13T04:21:04Z |3b| has no idea if it is conformant, and is pretty sure it isn't sane 2015-07-13T04:21:14Z |3b|: though it possibly sort of works 2015-07-13T04:21:41Z nyef: |3b|: The ` at the start, just after the body gets ignored, is immediately escaped with the ,@(when write. And then there's a new ` before the DEFMETHOD, and another before the WITH-FOREIGN-OBJECT, and another just before the LET after the second DEFMETHOD. 2015-07-13T04:21:52Z nyef: ... And I changed conventions halfway through, there, didn't I? 2015-07-13T04:22:10Z nyef: Anyway, it looks legit to me. 2015-07-13T04:24:25Z |3b| was more objecting to the binding the variable to itself quoted part, the quote/unquote stuff in general was just enough to get to the edge without quite going over 2015-07-13T04:25:26Z |3b|: with the same variable uses with , ,, ', and ,', in various parts of the expansion 2015-07-13T04:25:45Z nyef: Okay, yeah, I'm not even going to try to parse that right now. 2015-07-13T04:26:28Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-07-13T04:26:28Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-13T04:26:31Z pinterface: The (type vector2f) in translate-to-foreign should probably be (type ,class), I'm guessing? 2015-07-13T04:26:43Z |3b|: yeah, thanks 2015-07-13T04:26:58Z |3b| probably would have missed that for a while 2015-07-13T04:27:53Z |3b| is at least happy &body &key has the desired effect on indentation :) 2015-07-13T04:28:50Z |3b|: seems like i had that problem before without thinking of that solution 2015-07-13T04:32:25Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-13T04:33:26Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-13T04:33:43Z zacharias quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T04:33:43Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-13T04:33:59Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T04:37:47Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-13T04:38:15Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-13T04:39:19Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-13T04:40:04Z |3b|: actually, i suspect that expand-to-foreign shouldn't be there in the first place. If anything it should be the nonexistent expand-into-foreign-memory 2015-07-13T04:42:59Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T04:47:00Z nyef: Hunh. Apparently, my last six commits count towards my contribution for the 13th. 2015-07-13T04:47:11Z nyef: I don't know if that's disconcerting or not. 2015-07-13T04:48:06Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-13T04:49:33Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-13T04:52:53Z loke: nydel: you talking about github? 2015-07-13T04:53:08Z loke: it uses the timezone of the system you're commiting on 2015-07-13T04:53:32Z nyef: loke: You talking to me? 2015-07-13T04:53:37Z loke: yes 2015-07-13T04:53:39Z nyef: Ah. 2015-07-13T04:53:39Z loke: :-) 2015-07-13T04:53:46Z nyef: Mind your auto-complete. (-: 2015-07-13T04:53:53Z nyef: And yeah, github. 2015-07-13T04:54:13Z loke: whats your github id? 2015-07-13T04:54:23Z nyef: https://github.com/abridgewater/ 2015-07-13T04:54:37Z |3b|: hmm, actually got a reasonable expansion from defcfun, guess i'll have to compile some C and see if it runs at some point 2015-07-13T04:55:06Z loke: Here's me: https://github.com/lokedhs 2015-07-13T04:56:51Z loke: nyef: The github ui doesn't show the timezone for your commits and I have to leave for a moment now 2015-07-13T04:56:56Z nyef: You've been doing the github thing quite a bit longer than I have, apparently. 2015-07-13T04:57:09Z loke: Seems like it :-) 2015-07-13T04:57:11Z nyef: Yeah, I'm about to crash, myself. It's just about 1 AM here. 2015-07-13T04:57:31Z nyef: I'm about to beat your longest streak, though. 2015-07-13T04:57:33Z loke: 12:57 here. I have a airdresser appointment at 13 2015-07-13T04:58:00Z loke: My real longest streat is 79 days actually, but some of those are on a private repository so it's not visibe :-) 2015-07-13T04:58:18Z nyef: Ah. 2015-07-13T04:58:28Z nyef: Fair enough, then. 2015-07-13T05:01:44Z loke: Well, it's arguable that only true open source actually matters 2015-07-13T05:01:50Z loke: hidden software doesn't exist :-) 2015-07-13T05:02:44Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T05:03:24Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T05:05:45Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-13T05:07:55Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-13T05:12:33Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T05:17:02Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-13T05:17:02Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T05:17:02Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-13T05:23:32Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-13T05:23:37Z eazarlang_001 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T05:24:23Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 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(Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T09:28:41Z Vityok: drmeister: that's really nice! thanks for your great work! 2015-07-13T09:30:36Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-13T09:31:10Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-13T09:39:09Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-07-13T09:40:33Z drmeister: Vityok: Thank you. 2015-07-13T09:41:55Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T09:42:42Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-13T09:44:36Z loz: drmeister: wery well done! I haven't expect new cl implementations nowadays 2015-07-13T09:45:18Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-13T09:45:20Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-13T09:46:09Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-13T09:47:13Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-07-13T09:51:24Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-13T09:53:40Z dmatsya joined #lisp 2015-07-13T09:53:54Z dmatsya left #lisp 2015-07-13T09:56:50Z chelseaclinton quit 2015-07-13T09:58:27Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T09:58:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T10:00:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T10:00:57Z guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:01:20Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T10:01:28Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:03:19Z chelseaclinton joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:04:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-13T10:07:06Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:07:10Z chelseaclinton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T10:07:56Z troydm quit (Quit: What is hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2015-07-13T10:08:46Z Cymew: I await the day you say it's 4 times *faster* than C. ;) 2015-07-13T10:15:45Z drmeister: Thanks folks, I'm off to bed 2015-07-13T10:19:00Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:19:47Z chelseaclinton joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:20:41Z smith_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:21:21Z chelseaclinton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T10:24:51Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T10:25:37Z munksgaard quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-13T10:25:40Z resttime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T10:25:54Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:28:06Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:30:27Z theos: CL is already 10times faster than C 2015-07-13T10:31:22Z jackdaniel: what is healthier - orange or apple? 2015-07-13T10:31:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-13T10:31:29Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T10:31:50Z theos: depends on what you can digest more 2015-07-13T10:32:33Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T10:32:35Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-13T10:34:36Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:36:10Z guthur`: I'm allergic to oranges so... 2015-07-13T10:36:50Z zadock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T10:37:04Z guthur`: not sure if I am really allergic to C though, certainly find CL easier to digest 2015-07-13T10:37:28Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:40:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:42:00Z chelseaclinton joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:42:02Z chelseaclinton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T10:43:44Z tajjada joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:45:52Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:53:01Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-13T10:54:36Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:55:05Z dmitigr: theos: 10x faster than C? O_o 2015-07-13T10:57:17Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T10:58:20Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-07-13T10:58:31Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:01:13Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T11:01:30Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T11:02:30Z loz: probably in writing programs? 2015-07-13T11:02:40Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:02:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-13T11:04:05Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T11:04:51Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:06:57Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:07:37Z theos: 10x less pita 2015-07-13T11:08:56Z dmitigr: loz: maybe 2015-07-13T11:09:57Z dmitigr: theos: when you point me a HTTP server written in CL which faster than NGINX, I'll trust you :-) 2015-07-13T11:10:18Z dmitigr: theos: but don't even try to point me to teepeedee :-) 2015-07-13T11:10:25Z theos: dmitigr you should be afraid that i will find one 2015-07-13T11:10:26Z schjetne: I wonder if Ada is a good alternative to C. Though I still haven't had to do a job for which CL isn't the right tool. 2015-07-13T11:10:33Z Shinmera: The current one is Woo. https://github.com/fukamachi/woo 2015-07-13T11:11:45Z dmitigr: Shinmera: Eitaro makes many of cool stuff, but it seems to me that NGINX used much more in production than woo :-) 2015-07-13T11:11:52Z loz: Shinmera: i tried to use it with clack, even tutorial examples doesn't work 2015-07-13T11:11:57Z Shinmera: dmitigr: that's not an argument 2015-07-13T11:12:01Z jackdaniel: dmitigr: you asked about something faster then nginx 2015-07-13T11:12:03Z jackdaniel: not more popular 2015-07-13T11:12:06Z Shinmera: loz: it works just fine for me. 2015-07-13T11:12:16Z jackdaniel was searching for name, but Shinmera got faster ;p 2015-07-13T11:12:38Z loz: Shinmera: maybe I should check out latest version 2015-07-13T11:13:36Z dmitigr: Shinmera: any benchmarks A vs B are suck. And you know it well :-) 2015-07-13T11:13:45Z Shinmera: dmitigr: cool story bro 2015-07-13T11:14:22Z loz: btw I would like to see cowboy (erlang) in that list 2015-07-13T11:14:55Z jackdaniel: dmitigr: you asked X vs NGINX, so you claim your question sucked? ^_^ 2015-07-13T11:15:26Z dmitigr: Shinmera: the only argument for me is the useless software should not be considered as an example. NGNIX are used by many highload sites. Who are using woo? 2015-07-13T11:15:27Z loz: which is said to be only web server one can put in use without nginx in front of it 2015-07-13T11:15:42Z Shinmera: dmitigr: cool story bro 2015-07-13T11:16:08Z m_zr0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T11:16:17Z loz: nginx is older and is written in C, both made it more popular 2015-07-13T11:16:36Z jackdaniel hides in his lamp 2015-07-13T11:16:37Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: yeah, my question suck :-) But don't try to lie me about the CL is 10x faster than C :_) 2015-07-13T11:16:53Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-13T11:17:15Z jackdaniel: dmitigr: none language is "fastery' then any other - CL lets you write programs, which are 10x faster then their counterparts in C 9and vice versa) 2015-07-13T11:17:36Z jackdaniel: bigger application is, bigger win for CL imho 2015-07-13T11:17:58Z jackdaniel: s/fastery/faster/ 2015-07-13T11:18:01Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: what is a "bigger" application? 2015-07-13T11:18:03Z schjetne: dmitigr: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=300 2015-07-13T11:18:07Z z0d: well, it all boils down to the compiler and - in theory - a C compiler should generate more concise code 2015-07-13T11:18:36Z jackdaniel: dmitigr: I am pretty sure you can figure it out, what is "big application" without strict definition 2015-07-13T11:18:36Z z0d: but speed is usually not the issue 2015-07-13T11:19:11Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: there are a LOT of "big" software, including Wolfram Mathematica which written in C, not in CL. So? 2015-07-13T11:19:13Z schjetne: Hmm, that wasn't the blog post I was looking for 2015-07-13T11:20:14Z jackdaniel: dmitigr: I see you miss a point - I'm claiming, that similar applications written in C and in CL, if they are sufficiently complicated, are faster in favour of CL 2015-07-13T11:20:23Z jackdaniel: due to architectural flexibility 2015-07-13T11:20:55Z jackdaniel: not that you can't write big applications in C 2015-07-13T11:22:22Z jackdaniel: these misunderstendings of my words seem little intentional, therefore I take for granted, you're a troll dear sir :) 2015-07-13T11:22:34Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: maybe, I'm not a computer scientist. But in /practice/ I will trust to NGINX rather than woo, while I like CL very much. ;-) 2015-07-13T11:22:51Z p_l: there's also the issue of simple manpower put into various tasks 2015-07-13T11:23:58Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: theory can be very beauty, but practice is a king :-) 2015-07-13T11:24:26Z schjetne: I was of course looking for this bit on speed by Naggum: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/Vn31kjztWpQ/BVsZhsFMVlIJ 2015-07-13T11:25:13Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-13T11:25:15Z p_l: dmitigr: and with powerful enough engine (or effort) I can make even doors to the barn fly, to paraphrase a certain someone 2015-07-13T11:25:29Z dmitigr: schjetne: I respect Erik! But what stuff he wrote? I know also much flame... 2015-07-13T11:25:49Z dmitigr: also = only 2015-07-13T11:26:07Z dmitigr: schjetne: and, of course, many contributions to Emacs 2015-07-13T11:26:09Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:26:14Z dmitigr: schjetne: anything else? 2015-07-13T11:27:29Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:27:32Z Takumo quit (Quit: ZNC is going down!) 2015-07-13T11:28:24Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:28:25Z Takumo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T11:28:25Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:29:14Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:29:23Z dmitigr: Btw, I'm not a fan of C, not a fan of Lisp, not a fan of anything else. I'm just interested in creating software. 2015-07-13T11:29:32Z schjetne: dmitigr: if you want to talk practice, a programmer will easily cost you close €100 an hour. EC2 large will run you $0.104 in the same amount of time. It's clear where your priorities should be. 2015-07-13T11:30:59Z dmitigr: schjetne: and EC2 written in Common Lisp, right? :-) 2015-07-13T11:31:22Z H4ns: what's the topic again? 2015-07-13T11:31:26Z p_l: probably mostly duct tape and intern sweat 2015-07-13T11:31:40Z Takumo quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-13T11:32:02Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:32:02Z Takumo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T11:32:02Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:32:40Z Takumo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T11:32:41Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T11:34:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-13T11:34:18Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:34:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-13T11:35:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:35:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T11:35:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:36:15Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:36:15Z Takumo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T11:36:15Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:37:18Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-13T11:37:25Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:39:18Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:41:37Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:42:34Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-13T11:44:38Z pacon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-13T11:45:37Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:48:15Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-13T11:48:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:48:17Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T11:50:08Z Ober quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T11:53:18Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-13T12:00:58Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:03:10Z smith_: Shinmera: Love your works on the Qtools and related projects. Keep up the great works! 2015-07-13T12:03:30Z Shinmera: smith_: Thanks! Let me know if there's anything that could use improvement. 2015-07-13T12:03:40Z Shinmera: (There's a lot of it, but I might not notice everything) 2015-07-13T12:03:46Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:08:16Z smith__ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:09:31Z smith_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T12:09:45Z smith__: Shinmera: I will! :) 2015-07-13T12:11:40Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:16:33Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-13T12:19:40Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:20:25Z magical-imouto is now known as ninja-maid-robot 2015-07-13T12:22:51Z smith__: Man, I'm so addicted to Common Lisp + Emacs + SLIME 2015-07-13T12:23:13Z smith__: Scheme/Racket is nIce, but nothing beat SLIME 2015-07-13T12:28:39Z tajjada quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-13T12:29:13Z dmitigr: smith__: you know, as of Racket 6.1.1 there are drracket-tool-lib package that factors out parts of DrRacket's IDE so that they can be reused with other editors, such as Emacs :-) 2015-07-13T12:30:53Z przl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T12:33:39Z streptotrichosis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T12:34:27Z antoszka: dmitigr: has somebody done the integration, though, yet? 2015-07-13T12:34:54Z ninja-maid-robot is now known as magica-imouto 2015-07-13T12:35:48Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:36:36Z magica-imouto is now known as magical-imouto 2015-07-13T12:38:48Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:40:23Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:41:22Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T12:43:02Z dmitigr: antoszka: I have no idea. Maybe you'll ask in the Racket mailing list? 2015-07-13T12:45:20Z loz becoming addicted to smalltalk's env 2015-07-13T12:46:34Z antoszka: dmitigr: Yeah :) 2015-07-13T12:47:30Z Ober joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:48:40Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:48:56Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:49:03Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T12:49:24Z jamesf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T12:50:06Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:51:10Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-13T12:54:46Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-07-13T12:54:50Z dwrngr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T12:54:56Z guthur` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-13T12:55:34Z xificurC quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-07-13T12:56:01Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:01:57Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T13:07:36Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T13:10:01Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:11:13Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:12:07Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:12:08Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:12:33Z dmitigr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T13:13:43Z walter|r quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T13:13:52Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:13:55Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:15:00Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T13:15:34Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:17:18Z guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:17:33Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:17:36Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T13:18:02Z eylusion_e is now known as eylusion 2015-07-13T13:18:32Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T13:18:32Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:19:09Z ronh_t joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:19:16Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:19:38Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-13T13:19:38Z ronh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-13T13:22:13Z mach joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:23:59Z yang joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:25:58Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:28:30Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:28:59Z Posterdati quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T13:29:01Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:32:13Z MarkusBarthlen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T13:32:25Z MarkusBarthlen joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:35:32Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T13:37:29Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:37:31Z lisper29 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T13:37:48Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-13T13:37:55Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:41:50Z Ettore left #lisp 2015-07-13T13:42:13Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:42:20Z Ettore left #lisp 2015-07-13T13:42:26Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:48:29Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:48:36Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T13:49:14Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:49:30Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:49:34Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:52:39Z Octophore joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:53:04Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-13T13:57:53Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-07-13T13:59:31Z josteink is editing his "open in emacs" vs-extension in emacs, opened from vs 2015-07-13T14:00:43Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-13T14:02:26Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:03:26Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-13T14:04:29Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:04:59Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:05:00Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:05:37Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-13T14:05:52Z stokachu quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-13T14:05:53Z eylusion_p joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:06:43Z emaczen: I have a macro that generates a recursive expansion, why does this work in the REPL and not when compiling? I can guess that when compiling, it will just infinitely keep expanding, so if it doesn't compile when I evaluate it in the REPL then what does it do in the REPL and how could I mimick that behavior for when it tries to get compiled? 2015-07-13T14:07:09Z stokachu joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:07:42Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:08:17Z williamyao: Mind pasting it? 2015-07-13T14:08:21Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T14:08:34Z eylusion quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T14:08:40Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:09:06Z emaczen: williamyao: I'm just looking for quick suggestions 2015-07-13T14:10:24Z Bike: if it always expands to another use of itself it shouldn't work anywhere 2015-07-13T14:11:46Z jasom: emaczen: how does it "not work" when compiling? 2015-07-13T14:12:00Z ynchromeshs: williamyao: In my experience there's some supporting function that hasn't been defined yet, wrapping things in an EVAL-WHEN (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL :LOAD-TOPLEVEL :EXECUTE) form usually helps. 2015-07-13T14:12:37Z ynchromeshs: williamyao: emaczen: Oops, addressed that to the wrong person. :) 2015-07-13T14:13:09Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:14:11Z nml quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T14:14:20Z emaczen: jasom: When I am compiling, it just hangs on "compiling my-function" 2015-07-13T14:15:59Z superjudge joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:17:52Z emaczen left #lisp 2015-07-13T14:17:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T14:19:17Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:19:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-13T14:20:21Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T14:24:00Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:28:08Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:28:11Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-13T14:29:41Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-13T14:30:27Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:32:28Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T14:36:07Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:36:09Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T14:38:03Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:41:43Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T14:42:15Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:43:00Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-13T14:43:31Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T14:45:03Z guthur`: Has anyone notice how bordeaux threads in QL does not have the timeout on condition-wait 2015-07-13T14:45:31Z guthur`: it would appear that QL has a slightly older version, more than a year by the looks of it 2015-07-13T14:45:56Z guthur`: i noticed it because it means that i can not use the timeout on lparallel.queues 2015-07-13T14:46:12Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:46:51Z fe[nl]ix: I'll make a new release before the end of the month 2015-07-13T14:46:53Z guthur`: I know it's reasonable to assume that some libraries are not tracked that closely, but it's a little surprising that BT is one of them 2015-07-13T14:46:57Z guthur`: ah ok 2015-07-13T14:47:31Z guthur`: np, i'll just pull to my local-projects for now 2015-07-13T14:48:35Z dafunktion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T14:50:27Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T14:50:32Z dmitigr: folks, is there are library for full text search like in Postgres for Common Lisp? 2015-07-13T14:50:57Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:54:14Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T14:55:04Z jdz: dmitigr: there's http://www.cliki.net/Montezuma 2015-07-13T14:56:11Z dmitigr: jdz: aha, thank you! 2015-07-13T14:57:13Z smith__: jdz: That has to be one of the best name for a library. 2015-07-13T14:58:11Z nyef: Heh. Just don't piss it off. (-: 2015-07-13T14:59:35Z dmitigr: nyef: do you mean 'name' or library? 2015-07-13T15:00:18Z nyef: That particular library. 2015-07-13T15:00:47Z nyef: The results wouldn't be pretty when it gets back at you. 2015-07-13T15:01:59Z dmitigr: nyef: you think it's better to tune Postgres FTS? 2015-07-13T15:03:08Z dmitigr: nyef: I would like to buy AllegroCL with its Cache, but its too expensive. 2015-07-13T15:03:54Z nyef: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/montezumas-revenge.html 2015-07-13T15:06:01Z dmitigr: nyef: :-) 2015-07-13T15:06:04Z oGMo: montezuma appears last updated in 2009 .. if it does everything you need, use it, but Pg likely gets more active development and tuning itself 2015-07-13T15:06:53Z nyef: I use postgresql FTS, myself. 2015-07-13T15:06:57Z Xach: same 2015-07-13T15:07:08Z dmitigr: oGMo: but why so many cool projects written in Common Lisp are so often unbandoned?! 2015-07-13T15:07:30Z oGMo: dmitigr: there are many cool projects in CL that are also not abandoned 2015-07-13T15:07:35Z Xach: dmitigr: keeping projects going takes a lot of energy and there's only so much to go around. 2015-07-13T15:07:42Z oGMo: there are cool projects in any language on any platform that are abandoned 2015-07-13T15:08:36Z eudoxia: dmitigr: to be fair, montezuma is quite old i think. it's the descendant of a system written before Lucene. 2015-07-13T15:09:27Z dmitigr: I got it. 2015-07-13T15:09:29Z Xach: lucene is a descendent of a previous system written in lisp 2015-07-13T15:09:55Z dmitigr: Xach: Btw, initally, Postgres was written in Lisp :-) 2015-07-13T15:10:06Z dmitigr: initially 2015-07-13T15:10:15Z theos: when things become popular, they switch to python 2015-07-13T15:10:26Z Xach: truly the world is full of miracles 2015-07-13T15:10:55Z theos: i think because they have to hire more programmers for the expansion and those programmers dont know CL 2015-07-13T15:13:03Z mlrutherford: Is there a Lisp equivalent of Typed Racket? 2015-07-13T15:13:29Z dlowe: ... Typed Racket is a Lisp? 2015-07-13T15:13:47Z dlowe: No, there's no Common Lisp equivalent 2015-07-13T15:13:51Z mlrutherford: Not a huge fan of Scheme though :/ 2015-07-13T15:14:09Z dmitigr: does anybody tried to implement Generalized Inverted Index or Generalized Search Tree in Common Lisp? 2015-07-13T15:14:20Z dlowe: It would be neat, but it'd also be a pretty different language. 2015-07-13T15:15:27Z mlrutherford: How hard would it be to just roll my own? 2015-07-13T15:15:55Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:15:59Z dvgroc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-13T15:16:21Z Vityok: a quick question: in CFFI how to deal with functions like getPoint(double* x, double *y)? 2015-07-13T15:16:35Z jasom: Vityok: with-foreign-object 2015-07-13T15:17:05Z Vityok: jasom: (with-foreign-objects ((x :double) (y :double)))? 2015-07-13T15:17:18Z Vityok: and then calling (mem-ref x) (mem-ref y)? 2015-07-13T15:18:06Z jasom: yeah 2015-07-13T15:18:24Z Vityok: jasom: thanks, giving it a try 2015-07-13T15:18:51Z dlowe: mlrutherford: I don't know your capabilities. :) I'd find it pretty hard, even if I made it as a layer on top of the existing compiler. 2015-07-13T15:19:08Z jasom: I don't know enough about typed racket to comment mlrutherford 2015-07-13T15:19:45Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T15:20:16Z jasom: you can get something useful just by declaring all of your types in sbcl 2015-07-13T15:20:30Z fe[nl]ix: Vityok: no, just pass x and y. remember that CFFI deals in pointers and there's not & operator 2015-07-13T15:20:36Z dlowe: jasom: yeah, that's really not the same thing 2015-07-13T15:20:46Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-13T15:21:13Z xificurC: mlrutherford: depends on your skills, right. And racket isn't really scheme anymore, that's one of the reasons they changed the name 2015-07-13T15:21:22Z dlowe: jasom: parameterized types provide some pretty amazing guarantees 2015-07-13T15:21:27Z ggole: Maybe Shen is something like the equivalent of Typed Racket 2015-07-13T15:21:37Z ggole: Although that isn't a good description of it 2015-07-13T15:21:55Z xificurC: ggole: isn't it just a toy right now though? 2015-07-13T15:22:12Z ggole: It's not as encompassing as Racket, that's for sure 2015-07-13T15:22:16Z ggole: I wouldn't call it a toy exactly 2015-07-13T15:22:22Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-13T15:22:23Z jasom: dlowe: I know 2015-07-13T15:23:07Z jasom: reading about typed racket, it provides both parameterized types, and enforcment of checking for union types, neither of which you get with Python 2015-07-13T15:23:27Z xificurC: I remember reading the mailing list how the author found it useless to include an option for opening a file for appending 2015-07-13T15:24:21Z H4ns: ~. 2015-07-13T15:24:41Z ggole: There's some nifty stuff like variadic function types, too 2015-07-13T15:24:47Z ggole: Which you don't usually get in typed settings 2015-07-13T15:26:14Z xificurC: yeah, since TR is trying to complement racket with types, so they have to have a typed solution for that 2015-07-13T15:26:34Z pjb: schjetne: any language is a good alternative to C. Even Pascal was used to write unix kernels! 2015-07-13T15:26:35Z xificurC: I mean it's not trying to be a new language, just racket with types 2015-07-13T15:26:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:26:49Z ggole: Well, they could subset 2015-07-13T15:27:07Z xificurC: the goal is not to iirc 2015-07-13T15:27:09Z Vityok: fe[nl]ix: thanks, this might work 2015-07-13T15:27:30Z xificurC: they miss some stuff, like generics, but want to incorporate it (one day) 2015-07-13T15:27:33Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:28:08Z Vityok: fe[nl]ix: how do I recover double values for use in Lisp then? 2015-07-13T15:28:27Z jasom: Vityok: with mem-ref 2015-07-13T15:28:28Z Vityok: since I got sb-sys:int-sap 2015-07-13T15:28:50Z xificurC: a typed layer on top of CL would be nice though :) Could do type checking and just strip ip down to plain CL, maybe even with type hints 2015-07-13T15:29:00Z xificurC: s/ip/it/ 2015-07-13T15:29:06Z jasom: (with-foreign-objects ((x :double) (y :double)) (foreign-funcall ...) (values (mem-ref x) (mem-ref y))) 2015-07-13T15:29:15Z Vityok: fe[nl]ix: it is happening! 2015-07-13T15:29:21Z Vityok: thanks all for helping me 2015-07-13T15:30:02Z Bike: a type system on top of a type system sounds like bad times 2015-07-13T15:30:15Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-13T15:30:16Z pjb: xificurC: CL is already a typed language. 2015-07-13T15:30:53Z pjb: But it's so much better to write generic code… 2015-07-13T15:31:32Z guthur` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T15:31:36Z jasom: xificurC: CL is typed. You'd just need to do more type calculations at compile type, and add parametric types 2015-07-13T15:32:10Z jasom: e.g. CL's type system offers no way to represent a typed list, other than via SATISFIES 2015-07-13T15:32:33Z jasom: s/a typed list/an arbitrary length typed list/ 2015-07-13T15:33:15Z Bike: recursive types too. 2015-07-13T15:33:43Z jasom: Bike: right, I was mentally classifying them under parametric types, but that is a good distinction 2015-07-13T15:33:56Z jasom: it already has parametric types without recursion 2015-07-13T15:34:00Z Bike: i mean, CL has "parametric types", except they're just dumb macros 2015-07-13T15:34:06Z Bike: most of the time 2015-07-13T15:34:24Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:34:36Z ggole: You could try for inference, but subtyping doesn't play well with that 2015-07-13T15:34:59Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:35:06Z jasom: ggole: sbcl and cmucl already have type inference 2015-07-13T15:36:29Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T15:36:50Z nightfly quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:50Z stux|RC-only quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:50Z jewel_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:50Z johs quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:51Z justinmcp quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:51Z marinintim quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:51Z warex quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:51Z Cthulhux quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:51Z jaffachief quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:51Z clop quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:52Z frankS2 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:52Z d4gg4d quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:52Z gabot quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:52Z viaken2 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:52Z zmyrgel quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:52Z gensym quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:53Z ivan\ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:53Z l1x quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:53Z eagleflo quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:53Z Mandus quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:56Z Xach quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:57Z ecraven quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:57Z frsilent quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:58Z mtd quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:58Z honkfestival quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:58Z vert2 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:58Z kini quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:58Z josteink quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:58Z ggherdov quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:59Z mood quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:59Z spacebat1 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:59Z mikaelj_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:36:59Z jeaye quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:37:00Z nopf quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:37:00Z cantstanya quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:37:00Z AeroNotix quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:37:00Z p_l|backup quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-13T15:37:01Z warex joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:01Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:02Z eagleflo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:03Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:03Z mtd joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:04Z honkfestival joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:04Z vert2 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:05Z nopf joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:05Z Mandus joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:05Z frsilent joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:05Z frsilent quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T15:37:05Z frsilent joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:05Z johs joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:05Z gensym joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:07Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:07Z zmyrgel joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:07Z viaken2 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:08Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T15:37:10Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:12Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:15Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:15Z nightfly joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:16Z clop joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:19Z spacebat1 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:20Z gabot joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:21Z mood_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:22Z jeaye joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:24Z jasom: question: is there a good reason to use lists over vectors, other than the fact that lists allow you to share structure? 2015-07-13T15:37:31Z p_l|backup joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:34Z ecraven joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:37:34Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:38:01Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:38:11Z pjb: Yesterday somebody mentionned that lists were faster than vectors for his algorithm. 2015-07-13T15:38:13Z Bike: don't have to copy the whole thing every time you want to increase the length 2015-07-13T15:38:29Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T15:38:36Z AeroNotix joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:38:43Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:38:59Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:39:37Z jasom: Bike: that's what fill pointers are for 2015-07-13T15:40:03Z smith__: I was wondering about that too. 2015-07-13T15:40:05Z ggole: jasom: type inference in terms of inferring typed-racket style declarations is a bit different to what sbcl does 2015-07-13T15:40:08Z krkini joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:40:12Z pjb: When you access vectors (aref v (incf i)) must do (+ (array-base-address v) (* i (size-of (array-element-type v)))) but for lists, you just do (cdr list). 2015-07-13T15:40:18Z Bike: that just lets your fixed length be larger than the initial number of elements 2015-07-13T15:40:23Z sdothum quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-13T15:40:28Z pjb: ie. the computing of the address of the next slot is cached in the cdr. 2015-07-13T15:40:50Z pjb: jasom: you can have to increase the size in the middle! 2015-07-13T15:41:00Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:41:04Z smith__: pjb: wait, I thought vector was indexed, so random access is O(1)? 2015-07-13T15:41:17Z pjb: smith__: what about the constants? 2015-07-13T15:41:31Z jasom: pjb: if it's a vector of type T, then it's just a bitshift, and you have to do indirection for a list anyway 2015-07-13T15:41:33Z Bike: i hear you should just get a better computer instead of worrying about O constants 2015-07-13T15:41:33Z pjb: O(.) is only good when you have an infinite number of elements. 2015-07-13T15:41:39Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:41:56Z pjb: And then, the effects of cache memory makes it more like O(√n/n) rather than O(1). 2015-07-13T15:42:16Z ggole: Caching concerns aren't going to favour linked lists... 2015-07-13T15:42:27Z pjb: depends on the size. 2015-07-13T15:42:33Z ggole: Sure. Short lists are fine. 2015-07-13T15:42:39Z smith__: so... (linked) lists or vectors? 2015-07-13T15:42:46Z pjb: smith__: depends. 2015-07-13T15:42:50Z Bike: jasom: anyway i basically use lists just when i'm doing something small or nested (which isn't really a vector thing anyway), personally 2015-07-13T15:43:13Z pjb: smith__: depends on the size, depends on your access patterns, depends on your operations, depends on your algorithm. 2015-07-13T15:43:16Z smith__: Am I wrong to assume that if I do a loop over the entire sequence, then there won't be that much different between lists and vectors, performance wise? 2015-07-13T15:43:24Z pjb: smith__: depends. 2015-07-13T15:43:31Z jasom: smith__: it really depends 2015-07-13T15:43:44Z smith__: I see, thanks guys. 2015-07-13T15:43:48Z jasom: smith__: vectors may play better with prefetching and caching 2015-07-13T15:43:51Z ggole: If the sequence is out of cache the vector will be considerably faster. 2015-07-13T15:43:56Z smith__: I see. 2015-07-13T15:43:58Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:44:00Z smith__: Didn't know that. 2015-07-13T15:44:04Z H4ns: only if it contains boxed data 2015-07-13T15:44:08Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-13T15:44:49Z pjb: lists are often built in a single place, and sometimes copied, and in those cases ,even in an implementation without cdr-coding, the cons cells will be allocated in the same area, therefore will have the same cache properties as vectors. (even better, since the address of the next cell is already in the cache). 2015-07-13T15:45:10Z pjb: That said, of course, lists without cdr-coding will take twice the space of vectors. 2015-07-13T15:45:25Z jasom: smith__: the reason that CS classes focus on asymptotic performance (which is identical for looping over a vector or a list) is because constant factors are *very* hard to pin down in many cases 2015-07-13T15:45:58Z Bike: and even the variable factors are still hard to do on modern machines, yay 2015-07-13T15:46:03Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:46:10Z jasom: some copyingcollectors will tend to make non-adjacent lists adjacent during a GC as well 2015-07-13T15:46:21Z pjb: jasom: also, I've observed that with the processors and ram we have nowadays, it's rather much less important to control time and space complexity than it was 30 years ago. I'm sorry to report, that in most cases, thinking about O(.) is premature optimization. 2015-07-13T15:46:42Z smith__: jasom: Damn, so bascially asympotic analysis is not enough to analyze data structure performance, then? 2015-07-13T15:46:45Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:46:56Z pjb: And if you're google or amazon, you will deal with it with parallelism anyways. 2015-07-13T15:47:00Z jasom: pjb: I still find an N of 20 is a good place to start worrying about O(.) 2015-07-13T15:47:02Z pjb: smith__: far from it. 2015-07-13T15:47:22Z jasom: smith__: if you have a large number of elements, then the O(.) is very important 2015-07-13T15:47:39Z smith__: pjb: so... basically using either one is fine? I've been trying to use vectors in all of my CL programs so far 2015-07-13T15:47:45Z pjb: jasom: Once I had to deal with a graph of ~2000 nodes, and I was very afraid of O(.). When I ran the program, it was within 300 ms! 2015-07-13T15:47:45Z frankS2 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:47:50Z smith__: guess all I'm doing is premature optimization? 2015-07-13T15:47:53Z williamyao: After all, an algorithm that always takes infinite time to run is still O(1) :) 2015-07-13T15:47:55Z jasom: pjb: ah 2015-07-13T15:47:55Z Bike: https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2012/07/21/the-magic-ring-buffer/ optimizin my circular conses 2015-07-13T15:48:17Z pjb: But of course ,that was on multiple-gigabyte RAM and multiple-gigabyte Herz. 2015-07-13T15:48:28Z pjb: gigaHertz. 2015-07-13T15:48:41Z smith__: pjb: that's a sexy machine you got here. 2015-07-13T15:48:42Z pjb: So nowadays, the N are much bigger. 2015-07-13T15:48:50Z mea-culp` joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:48:50Z smith__: Bit data, eh? 2015-07-13T15:48:54Z smith__: *Big 2015-07-13T15:48:55Z pjb: smith__: just a simple Intel i7 3.something GHz. 2015-07-13T15:49:03Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:49:27Z pjb: so big data is more like in the millions or the billions nowadays. 2015-07-13T15:49:38Z pjb: Anything that you can process in your RAM is not big data. 2015-07-13T15:49:39Z mea-culpa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T15:49:45Z pjb: I have 24 GB of RAM here. 2015-07-13T15:50:00Z jasom: smith__: you still essentially never want to use an exponential time algorithm for something that isn't a fixed number of elements 2015-07-13T15:50:29Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-13T15:50:33Z smith__: jasom: I see, that's a nice rule of thumb 2015-07-13T15:51:07Z jasom: e.g. I've seen register allocators that will fall back on exponential time algorithms for x86 (with something like 6 useful registers, that's okay) 2015-07-13T15:52:16Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:52:31Z l1x joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:52:56Z subopt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T15:53:04Z epitron: Bike: hah.. that's a very clever hack 2015-07-13T15:53:12Z ggole: On the other hand, register counts vary surprisingly widely, so it's worth worrying about if your algorithm might run in unexpected places. 2015-07-13T15:53:21Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-13T15:53:21Z subopt joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:53:23Z shka: http://quickutil.org/ what is it 2015-07-13T15:53:28Z jasom: ggole: yeah, not going to run int on SPARc 2015-07-13T15:53:31Z shka: how it is related to quicklisp? 2015-07-13T15:53:50Z oGMo: it isn't afaik 2015-07-13T15:53:52Z ggole: I was thinking of GPUs 2015-07-13T15:53:52Z Xach: shka: not at all 2015-07-13T15:53:55Z ggole: They have tons of regs 2015-07-13T15:54:05Z ggole: Several hundred thousand 2015-07-13T15:54:45Z jasom: wow, most I've programed for was 4096 2015-07-13T15:54:56Z jasom: haven't done any GPU stuff though 2015-07-13T15:55:40Z ggole: My understanding is that stack memory is horribly slow because of obscure architectural reasons, so register numbers are selected so that there are effective never any spills. 2015-07-13T15:55:42Z jasom: and I realized SPARC isn't worse than Power for register allocation, since the register windows restrict you to 31 registers 2015-07-13T15:55:44Z Bike: i have in fact heard GPU programmers complaining about this exact problem, compiler devs just figuring exponential regalloc is going to work 2015-07-13T15:56:16Z ggole: There's interesting recent research on regalloc, actually 2015-07-13T15:56:51Z ggole: Colouring is supposed to be efficient on programs in SSA form 2015-07-13T15:56:52Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-13T15:57:03Z shka: Xach: thanks for answer 2015-07-13T15:57:07Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-13T15:57:20Z shka: also, guys: i have a problem with symbol conflict between two packages 2015-07-13T15:57:43Z pjb: shadow. 2015-07-13T15:57:45Z Xach: shka: there are ways to get through such problems 2015-07-13T15:57:56Z shka: namely between iterate:collecting and serpaneum:collecting 2015-07-13T15:58:23Z Xach: shka: you can import iterate's symbol, or import serapeum's symbol, or import neither 2015-07-13T15:58:24Z shka: oh, i'm pretty sure there are solutions for problems like this, just not sure what should i do 2015-07-13T15:58:26Z pjb: Yes, (:shadowing-import-from "ITERATE" "COLLECTING") if you use the one from iterate more often. 2015-07-13T15:58:34Z pjb: in defpackage. 2015-07-13T15:58:42Z shka: pjb: thanks! 2015-07-13T15:58:55Z Xach: shka: shadowing-import-from is for preferring to use one or the other without a prefix. shadow is when you want to use a prefix for both. 2015-07-13T15:58:56Z shka: Xach: thanks as well 2015-07-13T15:59:16Z shka: i want to use iterate without prefix 2015-07-13T15:59:24Z shka: ok, it's clear now 2015-07-13T15:59:29Z shka: you are great guys :-) 2015-07-13T16:00:08Z badkins quit 2015-07-13T16:00:38Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T16:01:32Z oskarth joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:01:47Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T16:01:47Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:01:52Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:03:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-13T16:05:26Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:06:06Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T16:06:32Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:06:55Z gabriel_laddel: I'm using uiop:run-program to run a program and getting "FATAL: failed to add I/O device: Filedes is not a tty". It would be nice to trick it into thinking I'm a tty. Is this a realistic desire? 2015-07-13T16:07:16Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:07:31Z gabriel_laddel: (to be clear, this shell command works from an xterm) 2015-07-13T16:07:47Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-13T16:07:57Z gabriel_laddel: Hence, I conclude that error message aside it wants something that could run ncurses 2015-07-13T16:08:25Z Bike: if you tell it it's a tty you're probably going to get term control junk, which isn't going to work well with just a normal stream or something 2015-07-13T16:09:21Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:09:27Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:09:39Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-13T16:09:41Z gabriel_laddel: Bike: actually in this case I won't. 2015-07-13T16:09:54Z gabriel_laddel: It will only be printing out text seperated by #\Return #\Newline 2015-07-13T16:10:01Z gabriel_laddel: (indicating a newline) 2015-07-13T16:12:14Z gabriel_laddel: oh hey, :external-format :ascii on uiop:run-program works 2015-07-13T16:12:17Z gabriel_laddel: for now at least 2015-07-13T16:12:18Z gabriel_laddel: thanks all 2015-07-13T16:12:40Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-13T16:13:19Z pjb: That may be a bug in uiop:run-program; it must be doing something right with :external-format :ascii that it is not doing without. 2015-07-13T16:13:25Z pjb: Talk to Fare about it. 2015-07-13T16:14:12Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: I can't load iolib today. It failed in my build system, and failed in the same way when locally cloned into a "normal" sbcl setup. 2015-07-13T16:14:29Z fe[nl]ix: what's the error ? 2015-07-13T16:14:32Z shka: pjb: could you please, remind me which function in the cesarum i should use to insert data into vector? 2015-07-13T16:14:48Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-13/failure-report/iolib.html has the info - "The name "CFFI-GROVEL" does not designate any package." 2015-07-13T16:14:53Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: I don't really understand it, sorry. 2015-07-13T16:15:12Z Xach: superficially I do, but I don't see how it's caused by the system file. 2015-07-13T16:15:14Z pjb: shka: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq 2015-07-13T16:15:33Z pjb: shka: notice that (setf subseq) is in CL, but it works only when the replacement is of same length. 2015-07-13T16:15:33Z dmitigr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T16:15:40Z epitron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T16:15:41Z shka: pjb: thanks 2015-07-13T16:16:05Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: I'll fix it when I get back home 2015-07-13T16:16:16Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: ok. are you on holiday in australia? 2015-07-13T16:16:23Z Xach: (no rush) 2015-07-13T16:16:33Z fe[nl]ix: no, just at work :D 2015-07-13T16:16:55Z gabriel_laddel: pjb: Bike: wait, nvm. 2015-07-13T16:17:34Z gabriel_laddel: No bug in uiop:run-program, just my impatience. It print out the commands I *send* to an associated FD. 2015-07-13T16:17:50Z gabriel_laddel: which is exactly the behavior I was expecting from the program 2015-07-13T16:18:01Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T16:18:16Z gabriel_laddel: Also, it had to do with my setting :input t and :output nil 2015-07-13T16:18:35Z epitron joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:21:31Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:23:44Z scharan joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:24:58Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:25:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:29:48Z smith__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-13T16:30:19Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T16:30:30Z jaffachief joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:30:35Z booley joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:34:06Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:41:59Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:42:21Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-13T16:43:16Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:44:29Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:45:00Z warweasle` joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:45:56Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:46:17Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-13T16:49:16Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:49:42Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:50:39Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:50:46Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:52:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T16:52:59Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:58:34Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-13T16:59:31Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:01:18Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:02:22Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T17:05:00Z devon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T17:07:47Z warweasle`: Can quicklisp kick off a C build? 2015-07-13T17:08:43Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T17:09:53Z reb``: warweasle`: In theory yes. Quicklisp builds using ASDF. You can extend ASDF to build C code. 2015-07-13T17:10:39Z warweasle`: reb``: Not sure I know how to do that. 2015-07-13T17:11:11Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-13T17:11:12Z fe[nl]ix: not sure I'd want to do that 2015-07-13T17:11:50Z warweasle`: Well, it was worth asking. I'll just add build instructions. 2015-07-13T17:12:46Z chelseaclinton_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:13:01Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:13:24Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-13T17:13:33Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:13:50Z eudoxia: warweasle`: check out shinmera's abcd 2015-07-13T17:17:53Z ronh_t is now known as ronh 2015-07-13T17:19:33Z warweasle`: eudoxia: I was trying to do a quicklisp install. I think it would be easer for a newbie to just build ODE. 2015-07-13T17:19:48Z eudoxia: ok then 2015-07-13T17:23:52Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:24:55Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T17:25:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:26:35Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:29:53Z shka: any clever way to export class along with it slots and accessors? 2015-07-13T17:30:35Z SilentEcho quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-07-13T17:32:52Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-13T17:33:08Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:33:42Z Xach: shka: no. 2015-07-13T17:33:53Z pjb: shka: use M-x pjb-cl-export-definition-at-point RET 2015-07-13T17:33:55Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T17:34:27Z pjb: It could be a tad smarter: it's not idempotent. 2015-07-13T17:34:50Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-07-13T17:35:18Z pjb: It's in https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs 2015-07-13T17:35:26Z shka: Xach: i found something called defclass* 2015-07-13T17:35:31Z shka: it looks kinda nice 2015-07-13T17:35:52Z pjb: Well, there's also cl-annotations @export (defclass …) 2015-07-13T17:36:05Z Xach: shka: I'm not a fan of such defclass syntax sugar 2015-07-13T17:36:34Z p8m quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-13T17:36:47Z pjb: Oops, sorry, pjb-cl-export-definition-at-point has not migrated to https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs yet. 2015-07-13T17:37:25Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:37:32Z shka: pjb: shame on you! 2015-07-13T17:37:33Z pjb: shka: there it is: http://paste.lisp.org/+38XN 2015-07-13T17:37:39Z nyef: "Syntactic sugar causes cancer of the semicolon"? 2015-07-13T17:38:23Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-13T17:38:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:39:21Z shka: oh well, i can do it manuall 2015-07-13T17:39:23Z shka: y 2015-07-13T17:40:46Z shka: but i will probabbly write something like defclass* myself 2015-07-13T17:40:49Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:40:52Z shka: just simpler 2015-07-13T17:40:55Z williamyao: Hmm, the CLHS for PROG2 is wrong. Whom would I notify about this? 2015-07-13T17:41:04Z Bike: it's a known issue 2015-07-13T17:41:17Z pjb: williamyao: http://cliki.net/Issue%20PROG2-RETURN-VALUE 2015-07-13T17:41:20Z shka: with just additional flag for accessors 2015-07-13T17:41:28Z Bike: the standard is frozen, so there's nobody to notify; normally you might throw a note on cliki but as you can see we got one already 2015-07-13T17:41:47Z williamyao: Gotcha. 2015-07-13T17:41:54Z pjb: Cost of Non-Adoption: Continued need to explain the infelicities of the specification editing process. 2015-07-13T17:41:57Z Bike: cute 2015-07-13T17:42:42Z pjb: williamyao: You've earned a medal. Soon you won't be a CL newbie anymore. 2015-07-13T17:43:05Z pjb: Let's gamify clhs reading. 2015-07-13T17:43:31Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:46:18Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T17:47:14Z Brozo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:47:19Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T17:47:21Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T17:47:51Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:47:58Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-13T17:48:51Z Brozo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T17:49:19Z chelseaclinton_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T17:54:22Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:54:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: This looks neat. http://ceramic.github.io/ 2015-07-13T17:55:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T17:56:08Z jewel_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-13T17:58:40Z blabergjdjfhj joined #lisp 2015-07-13T17:59:31Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:01:11Z blabergjdjfhj left #lisp 2015-07-13T18:01:17Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:01:48Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-13T18:02:34Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T18:03:19Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T18:03:22Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-13T18:03:51Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:08:13Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:09:18Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-13T18:09:25Z sjl: b 7 2015-07-13T18:09:28Z sjl: ugh 2015-07-13T18:09:34Z sjl: how do I keyboard 2015-07-13T18:10:54Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Forces me to go through my code and think about its organisation and what should actually be public and shouldn't. 2015-07-13T18:41:03Z dmiles_akf joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:41:09Z jasom: shka: I'd write something to generate the :export line for you then 2015-07-13T18:41:12Z eudoxia: Shinmera: ok 2015-07-13T18:41:17Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-13T18:41:38Z Ettore left #lisp 2015-07-13T18:43:30Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:43:31Z Xach: slime has that already. C-c x will update your defpackage form with the symbol at point. 2015-07-13T18:43:40Z Xach: one at a time, though,. 2015-07-13T18:44:05Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:44:09Z Ettore left #lisp 2015-07-13T18:44:48Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:44:52Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:45:53Z Shinmera: Does someone know what this group is about? https://github.com/bsmr-common-lisp 2015-07-13T18:46:02Z Shinmera: Seems to be just a collection of various CL repositories 2015-07-13T18:46:07Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T18:46:11Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T18:46:43Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:46:44Z eudoxia: yeah that's this thing i'm doing where i create a bunch of orgs and just clone repos to inflate the number of common lisp repos on github 2015-07-13T18:46:51Z eudoxia: haha just kidding (seriously) 2015-07-13T18:51:24Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T18:51:28Z Shinmera: eudoxia: I updated the ABCD repo to say it's abandoned. 2015-07-13T18:51:56Z Shinmera: eudoxia: It's esp. strange to me because they've hidden all members, so I don't know who or why or what. 2015-07-13T18:52:43Z eudoxia: Shinmera: maybe they forgot to set membership to public 2015-07-13T18:52:53Z Shinmera: Isn't that the default? 2015-07-13T18:53:45Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:54:02Z Shinmera: I don't even see a setting to do any hiding or showing 2015-07-13T18:54:36Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T18:54:37Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-13T18:54:41Z eudoxia: no 2015-07-13T18:54:55Z eudoxia: look at your profile in incognito mode 2015-07-13T18:55:26Z Shinmera: Huh, indeed. 2015-07-13T18:55:36Z LiamH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T18:56:32Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:56:35Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-13T18:56:37Z eudoxia: Shinmera: go to the org, click on 'people', and there you can choose the membership type 2015-07-13T18:56:43Z Shinmera: Yeah, I found it. 2015-07-13T18:58:31Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T18:58:39Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:00:51Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T19:02:01Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:02:35Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:02:38Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:03:03Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T19:03:11Z bin7me joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:07:12Z Brozo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T19:08:02Z yati1 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:08:05Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:08:06Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-13T19:08:17Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:08:19Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T19:08:19Z yati1 is now known as yati 2015-07-13T19:08:27Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:10:05Z josemanuel quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-13T19:11:48Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:12:50Z warweasle` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T19:18:19Z cosmicexplorer joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:20:28Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:21:09Z larme quit (K-Lined) 2015-07-13T19:21:09Z gko quit (K-Lined) 2015-07-13T19:22:43Z keen__________18 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:23:13Z gko joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:23:23Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:23:30Z keen__________17 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T19:23:55Z larme joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:24:25Z rpg: I'm trying to build BORDEAUX-THREADS and, at least in some contexts, I'm getting an error where CFFI says "Unknown CFFI Type: :STRUCT" Anyone know what that's about? 2015-07-13T19:25:26Z rpg: Is CFFI too old? 2015-07-13T19:25:57Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:26:22Z badkins quit 2015-07-13T19:26:45Z contrapunctus quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-13T19:26:48Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus 2015-07-13T19:27:49Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: yes 2015-07-13T19:28:12Z rpg: What's really puzzling me is that in some circumstances this code loads fine, and in others it blows up with this error. 2015-07-13T19:29:33Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:30:19Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-13T19:30:36Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Is there some bug in my version of CFFI that allows non-determinism into the loading process? 2015-07-13T19:30:52Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:31:15Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: I can't think of anything 2015-07-13T19:32:44Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-13T19:35:29Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T19:37:00Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T19:37:19Z cadadar: hi all, is there a tool to minify CL code? e.g. http://paste.lisp.org/display/151552 2015-07-13T19:39:15Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: thanks. For whatever reason, updating CFFI seems to fix this. 2015-07-13T19:39:24Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:39:50Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Looks like I may have to do the whole iolib dependency tree :-/ 2015-07-13T19:40:57Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-13T19:42:41Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: When I try to load the new IOLIB, I get an error that CFFI-GROVEL doesn't designate a package. 2015-07-13T19:43:16Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-13T19:43:45Z rpg: Is there any chance that I need something like a defsystem-depends-on for this? 2015-07-13T19:44:30Z fe[nl]ix: no, that's an error that Xach noticed too, I'll fix it in a few hours when I get home 2015-07-13T19:44:30Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T19:45:12Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: ah. Is there a release version that's older than master I could use for a while? 2015-07-13T19:45:22Z larme quit (K-Lined) 2015-07-13T19:45:23Z gko quit (K-Lined) 2015-07-13T19:46:31Z subopt left #lisp 2015-07-13T19:46:45Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-13T19:46:53Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:47:09Z fe[nl]ix: you can delete the most recent 2-3 commits 2015-07-13T19:47:28Z gko joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:48:07Z larme joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:49:02Z rpg: thanks! Now I'm getting new EPIPE errors in code that always worked before. 2015-07-13T19:49:32Z rpg: broken pipes.... 2015-07-13T19:49:47Z pjb: Casser sa pipe, c'est mal! 2015-07-13T19:50:03Z clique: pipe mills? 2015-07-13T19:50:27Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T19:55:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:55:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-13T19:55:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-13T19:59:15Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-13T19:59:20Z k-stz: using with the one package per file approach, do you also give the file the same name as the package? 2015-07-13T20:00:04Z H4ns: k-stz: yes 2015-07-13T20:00:23Z nyef: k-stz: Yes, modulo little bits like file extensions and a system-specific prefix. 2015-07-13T20:00:40Z nyef: That way the build tool can find the files given the package names. 2015-07-13T20:01:10Z nyef: Also note that this means that your packages form a DAG, not anything with loops. 2015-07-13T20:01:55Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-13T20:03:08Z cpopell4 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:04:33Z k-stz: ok 2015-07-13T20:04:41Z k-stz: anything with loops in design/architecture i think is a bad sign 2015-07-13T20:05:39Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:05:53Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:06:20Z nyef: Mmm. In this case, it's a dependency graph, so loops aren't very fun. 2015-07-13T20:06:48Z clique: DAG? 2015-07-13T20:06:52Z k-stz: i didn't know which word (design/architecture) would fit there 2015-07-13T20:06:58Z nyef: clique: Directed Acyclic Graph. 2015-07-13T20:07:03Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:07:13Z nyef: minion: What does DAG stand for? 2015-07-13T20:07:13Z minion: Democratical Atrabilious Groundy 2015-07-13T20:07:21Z clique: :) 2015-07-13T20:07:25Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T20:07:52Z antoszka: :) 2015-07-13T20:08:01Z k-stz: minion: What does Democratical Atrabilious Groundy mean? 2015-07-13T20:08:01Z minion: a man, a plan, a canal - panama 2015-07-13T20:08:03Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:08:09Z clique: I was thinking to Draw Allen's Graph 2015-07-13T20:09:14Z ggole quit 2015-07-13T20:09:57Z cpopell4 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:10:37Z k-stz: nyef: oh I just now understood what you mean with DAG in that context. Sounds like plan to stick to then 2015-07-13T20:11:22Z clique: ok, Allen's plot 2015-07-13T20:11:30Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:12:10Z nyef: k-stz: There are some downsides to one-package-per-file, but I find that they are quite outweighed by the upsides. Others may or may not agree. 2015-07-13T20:12:15Z Brozo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:12:50Z nyef: I may not even agree at some point in the future. But for now, it's working well for me. 2015-07-13T20:12:53Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:12:56Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T20:13:28Z reb``: nyef: I think it boils down to what your file size tolerance is. 2015-07-13T20:13:30Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:13:59Z pjb: nyef: mostly agree. However for more complex packages or libraries, you might want or prefer to have separate files defining stuff in the same package. 2015-07-13T20:14:13Z pjb: Notaby when you want to use functions at macroexpansion time. 2015-07-13T20:14:17Z clique: Allen curve 2015-07-13T20:14:43Z nyef: reb``: After about 500 lines, files start feeling overlong. 2015-07-13T20:14:48Z pjb: reb``: emacs 32-bit can handle 128MB files. emacs-64bit has no forseable limit AFAIK. 2015-07-13T20:14:59Z pjb: nyef: use narrow-to-region 2015-07-13T20:15:38Z nyef: Bah. More files! (-: 2015-07-13T20:16:02Z pjb: or have emacs do it for you, use a edit-toplevel-form command (bind it to something nice, like C-x C-f), and let emacs manage storing and retrieving toplevel forms from a bunch of files automatically. 2015-07-13T20:16:15Z _death: for some of my projects I switched to package-inferred-systems, and it seems convenient enough.. https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-package_002dinferred_002dsystem-extension.html 2015-07-13T20:16:47Z fe[nl]ix: _death: an example ? 2015-07-13T20:17:03Z akkad: if only those are not all on one line 2015-07-13T20:17:09Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:17:58Z _death: fe[nl]ix: https://github.com/death/constantia 2015-07-13T20:18:40Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T20:18:48Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:18:50Z _death: fe[nl]ix: also note the all.lisp file.. in bigger projects I have several of those 2015-07-13T20:18:59Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:19:41Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:20:15Z k-stz: _death: I assume it basically allows you to load your system by only providing the package names? 2015-07-13T20:20:31Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:20:47Z frsilent quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:21:45Z frsilent joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:22:13Z _death: k-stz: you still have an asd file.. but the dependencies are determined via the defpackage forms.. when I converted projects to use this style, I sometimes revealed accidental importing/shadowing 2015-07-13T20:22:38Z qlkzy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:23:45Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:24:04Z k-stz: ah I see 2015-07-13T20:24:05Z _death: I like that it makes each file have explicit "inputs/outputs".. i.e. dependencies and export list 2015-07-13T20:24:54Z _death: easy to add more code without worrying about shadowing, and to have short names 2015-07-13T20:26:02Z Brozo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:26:06Z Shinmera: I experience the opposite usually, by which adding more packages introduces more conflicts. 2015-07-13T20:26:39Z Shinmera: I also see packages as the external interface, whereas the files are the internal structure. The two are usually not the same. 2015-07-13T20:27:58Z qlkzy joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:28:38Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:28:49Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:28:50Z _death: Shinmera: well, I guess it depends on how you import your stuff.. for example, I never :use except for packages of the same system and the CL package (I guess it could be relaxed to "systems I control" and CL package).. always use :import-from specifying just the names I want 2015-07-13T20:29:13Z _death: same system -> same project 2015-07-13T20:29:50Z Shinmera: I just don't see the point in introducing this additional constraint on writing your projects. 2015-07-13T20:30:12Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:30:21Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:30:21Z Shinmera: Keeping track of all the necessary shadowing and when to :use vs. not seems like an exercise in additional dependency tracking to me rather than anything useful. 2015-07-13T20:30:23Z _death: maybe try it on one of your projects and see how it goes? 2015-07-13T20:30:45Z Shinmera: I'd have to see an upside first to have any incentive to try it. 2015-07-13T20:30:53Z k-stz: yes just wanted to write: one ought to start the next small project deliberately trying a different approach 2015-07-13T20:31:26Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:31:40Z Shinmera: Extreme analogy: I don't need to throw myself off a cliff just to see how it goes. One can expect the results through analysis without having to experimentally verify it each time. 2015-07-13T20:32:22Z Davidbrcz quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-13T20:32:30Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:32:38Z _death: well, if you use stuff you don't control, then that's a recipe for disaster, as one of the packages suddenly exports a name that another package you use already exports and then you get a conflict.. in the good case.. in the bad you get a silent redefinition of some newly exported symbol 2015-07-13T20:33:05Z Shinmera: Hence why I generally don't :use anything except the base package. 2015-07-13T20:33:34Z Brozo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-13T20:33:39Z Shinmera: But now, if I split up my project into many packages I either need to prefix the hell out of it, specifically import a lot, or get a lot of conflicts in things that should be the same function like accessors and the like. 2015-07-13T20:34:00Z p_l: Shinmera: completely unrelated - have you seen opusmodus ? 2015-07-13T20:34:06Z Brozo joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:34:20Z Shinmera: p_l: I have, but I haven't had time to try it yet. That was one of my incentives for buying a mac, actually. Thanks for reminding me! 2015-07-13T20:34:27Z p_l: :) 2015-07-13T20:34:28Z Shinmera makes a ticket 2015-07-13T20:34:32Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T20:34:48Z _death: Shinmera: no, you have stuff like that all.lisp file.. say, for each directory in your project 2015-07-13T20:35:02Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-13T20:35:23Z Shinmera: _death: And that does what exactly? 2015-07-13T20:36:33Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:37:07Z _death: it creates a package that exports all the symbols they export.. so you can just use that 2015-07-13T20:37:34Z Shinmera: Not everything that I use in my internal components should be exported. 2015-07-13T20:38:05Z _death: sure, you write that form and choose what to do.. 2015-07-13T20:38:23Z Shinmera: And even then: What exactly do you gain out of all this additional package writing? Not having to write an explicit system file seems like miniscule gain. 2015-07-13T20:38:41Z Shinmera: _death: But then how do I use things internally if they aren't exported? 2015-07-13T20:38:48Z Shinmera: Now we're back to my original point. 2015-07-13T20:39:48Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:39:48Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:40:36Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:41:20Z Brozo quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-07-13T20:41:27Z _death: well I already described some benefits I perceived.. anyway, if you can't bother to try, and your system (scuse the pun :) works for you.. it's ok 2015-07-13T20:41:54Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:42:43Z p_l: Shinmera: regarding Opusmodus - I have no way of testing it out, but the screenshot reminded me of how I'd see a "modern" CL GUI application 2015-07-13T20:42:50Z p_l: especially look at the "listener" window 2015-07-13T20:43:17Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:43:33Z contrapunctus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 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https://books.google.pl/books?id=kxMzIhvT18YC&pg=SL5-PA7&lpg=SL5-PA7&dq=lisp+airplane+design+software&source=bl&ots=rXe_Zwz0Xo&sig=_IHTGz-tStdGDklGGQNa85WEPnk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAWoVChMIrr6NvvzYxgIVBdUUCh2bzAye#v=onepage&q=lisp%20airplane%20design%20software&f=false 2015-07-13T20:48:44Z clique: ok :D 2015-07-13T20:48:52Z p_l: old software manual mentioning lisp innards 2015-07-13T20:49:19Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:49:27Z cyphase quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-13T20:51:31Z _death: Shinmera: btw your "extreme analogy" reminded me of aristotle & horse teeth :) 2015-07-13T20:52:28Z cosmicexplorer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:54:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-13T20:55:05Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:55:57Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-13T20:58:11Z krkini is now known as kini 2015-07-13T21:01:28Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T21:03:15Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-13T21:05:48Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 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function SB-VM::ISQRT32 is undefined ? 2015-07-13T22:11:51Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-13T22:12:04Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: pong...briefly 2015-07-13T22:13:50Z fe[nl]ix: I sent you a patch that should hide the groveler output in ql:quickload 2015-07-13T22:14:30Z fe[nl]ix: just wanted to know what you think 2015-07-13T22:15:41Z francogrex: it's ok never mind fixed it with (defknown isqrt32:isqrt32 ... 2015-07-13T22:15:46Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: what is the groveler output? 2015-07-13T22:16:05Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-13T22:16:35Z fe[nl]ix: mostly the gcc command line executed 2015-07-13T22:17:32Z fe[nl]ix: but under the default ql:quickload parameters that gets output amid all the nice dots and looks ugly 2015-07-13T22:20:29Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-13T22:21:26Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-13T22:21:39Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-13T22:21:41Z m_zr0 joined #lisp 2015-07-13T22:24:20Z 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2015-07-14T00:49:22Z kristof: Bike: I hopefully will. 2015-07-14T00:49:25Z pjb: :-) 2015-07-14T00:49:55Z Bike: you should use mps or somefin. 2015-07-14T00:50:01Z kristof: Bike: I was worried how often I would have to do hare-and-tortoise cycle detection. And the answer is "only on set-cdr". 2015-07-14T00:50:14Z Chippie00 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T00:50:16Z kristof: er, rplcd 2015-07-14T00:51:00Z Bike: if it's real CL you might also get cyclic structures from the reader. 2015-07-14T00:51:31Z nyef: kristof: For our next refcounter-breaking trick, we create a CONS where the CAR points back to itself. 2015-07-14T00:51:36Z kristof: Bike: I'm wondering if assigning a weak reference is good enough to be memory safe and not have memory leaks. 2015-07-14T00:51:43Z Bike: aaaaand nyef raises an obvious point. 2015-07-14T00:51:47Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-14T00:51:55Z kristof: nyef: Then do the same thing for rplca? 2015-07-14T00:52:08Z kristof: So both rplca and rplcd check for - 2015-07-14T00:52:10Z kristof: oh 2015-07-14T00:52:11Z nyef: (Now, does anyone remember under what circumstances you would want to do this?) 2015-07-14T00:52:26Z Bike: admiring #s in my repl, of course 2015-07-14T00:52:28Z kristof: nyef: Cyclic trees? 2015-07-14T00:52:44Z nyef: Building a list, in order, from front to back. 2015-07-14T00:52:57Z Bike: kristof: doing a cycle detection on every rplca/d is probably slow. 2015-07-14T00:53:39Z kristof: Bike: This is probably proof that not using a garbage collector is almost strictly slower than using one. 2015-07-14T00:53:41Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T00:53:57Z kristof: I should just use a mark and sweep cons arena and call it a day. 2015-07-14T00:53:59Z nyef: (setf (car list-head) (setf (cdar list-head) (cons new-element nil))), then your list gets built on CDR list-head, one cell at a time. 2015-07-14T00:54:09Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-14T00:54:11Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-14T00:54:34Z nyef: Yeah, there's a reason why we don't refer to reference counting as "garbage collection", and instead refer to it as "a joke". 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When in the debugger, several (hundred) calls into the recursive function, how can i quickly inspect the value of a top level special variable? the backtrace only shows locals. 2015-07-14T03:18:59Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:19:09Z beach: jason_m: e 2015-07-14T03:19:11Z H4ns: jason_m: use "e" to evaluate an expression 2015-07-14T03:20:02Z jason_m: perfect, thanks! now I know how to do more than quit the debugger :) 2015-07-14T03:22:27Z beach: Speaking of which, what is the idea behind the fact that the SLIME debugger does not have an ordinary REPL window? 2015-07-14T03:23:27Z Jaskologist_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T03:23:53Z Jaskologist_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:24:34Z Bike: that it's more common to use a restart? 2015-07-14T03:24:55Z cmoneylulz quit 2015-07-14T03:25:06Z beach: Hmm. 2015-07-14T03:25:56Z jamesf joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:27:05Z beach: And is that the case? 2015-07-14T03:27:17Z nyef: Yes, because there's no REPL window. 2015-07-14T03:27:28Z beach: Good one! :) 2015-07-14T03:27:32Z nyef: Thank you. (-: 2015-07-14T03:28:26Z nyef: More seriously, though, when I'm not using SLIME and land in the debugger, most of the time the error message or the error message plus the backtrace tells me enough about what's going on that my next action IS to pick a restart. 2015-07-14T03:29:37Z beach: Maybe you are right. However, when I *do* need more information, I find the SLIME debugger a bit inconvenient. It would be nice to have a command, say C-C C-r to give a repl window. 2015-07-14T03:29:50Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T03:30:48Z nyef: There's a command to dump you into the implementation debugger in the *slime-repl* window. Does that count? 2015-07-14T03:31:10Z nyef: I forget what it is, though. My SLIME-fu is pretty rusty these days. 2015-07-14T03:31:21Z beach: I'll find it. Thanks. 2015-07-14T03:33:45Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T03:35:00Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-14T03:35:58Z nydel quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-14T03:37:53Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:40:36Z copycat1 is now known as copycat 2015-07-14T03:40:43Z beach: It seems to be `B' sldb-break-with-default-debugger. 2015-07-14T03:40:53Z nyef: Sounds about right. 2015-07-14T03:41:30Z beach: Using it, I get a message in the *slime-repl ..* buffer, but no REPL. 2015-07-14T03:41:43Z nyef: ... Typical. 2015-07-14T03:42:07Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:42:19Z beach: If that is normal, then "no, that doesn't count". 2015-07-14T03:42:40Z nyef: Sounds like it's broken in some respect. 2015-07-14T03:42:49Z beach: Yeah, could be. 2015-07-14T03:47:12Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T03:47:15Z White__Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:48:34Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T03:48:36Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:49:46Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T03:49:52Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:50:04Z rpg: beach: I have the same impression as you: I miss having a full-fledged REPL. I find dealing with just the "E" command pretty limiting. 2015-07-14T03:51:03Z beach: Yeah, it feels like it must feel to wear a straitjacket. 2015-07-14T03:51:25Z beach: I really hate to complain about stuff like this, simply because I know that there are a lot of nice people putting in a lot of their time to provide these things for free. I should just figure out how to do it better and do it. 2015-07-14T03:51:41Z rpg: I got used to the Allegro debugger, which doesn't have the awesome inspector interface of slime, but I miss having a REPL in the debugger. 2015-07-14T03:52:19Z rpg: Someone explained to me that it's very hard to have two different interaction windows simultaneously in Emacs, and that accounts for part of the reason why SLDB works the way it does. 2015-07-14T03:52:43Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-14T03:52:46Z beach: Ah, that would explain it. 2015-07-14T03:53:00Z rpg: I think maybe having the SLDB frame + a REPL in a debugger context would be very difficult to keep straight. I didn't fully understand, to be honest. 2015-07-14T03:53:11Z rpg: good night! 2015-07-14T03:53:13Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T03:53:17Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:54:17Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-14T03:54:57Z rritoch: Hi, I'm sure your sick of this type of question but is there anything wrong with this string-split function? http://pastebin.com/2UXh5EvH ... and is there a better way? 2015-07-14T03:55:48Z nyef: rritoch: Crazy question but... Isn't this the sort of thing that cl-ppcre would be good for? 2015-07-14T03:56:16Z Bike: what is even happening here 2015-07-14T03:56:16Z beach: rritoch: For one thing, your indentation is completely off, so it is impossible to read your code. 2015-07-14T03:56:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T03:56:58Z Bike: i guess making your own w combinator is impressive in a weird way. well, use labels instead of passing the thing to itself 2015-07-14T03:57:08Z nyef: Oh, wow. Yeah, that threw me. I thought that a LET* was called for, but that LAMBDA... Eesh. 2015-07-14T03:58:00Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T03:58:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:58:31Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:58:31Z rritoch: Yes, it is a recursive lambda function, sorry about the indentation but I'm working in notepad 2015-07-14T03:58:40Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-14T03:59:02Z beach: rritoch: It is very impolite to submit badly indented code for others to read. 2015-07-14T03:59:02Z nyef: Wow. Umm... Yeah, words fail me. 2015-07-14T03:59:39Z beach: rritoch: And you should probably use LABELS and LOOP as Bike and nyef pointed out. 2015-07-14T03:59:41Z nyef: Is there any reason you're using notepad instead of a real editor (one with paren balancing and some notion of indent rules) 2015-07-14T03:59:58Z nyef: ? 2015-07-14T04:00:21Z theos: rritoch try out SLIME mode in emacs. it will make your life very easy 2015-07-14T04:00:26Z rritoch: nyef: Just lazy to setup eclipse with lisp support. 2015-07-14T04:00:40Z beach: rritoch: You want Emacs + SLIME. 2015-07-14T04:00:45Z nyef: I'm not going to say "use emacs", and I'm definitely not going to say "use vi", but I am going to say "notepad has to be just about the third worst editor for programming in that I've ever heard of". 2015-07-14T04:00:57Z theos: god no! use emacs with SLIME mode 2015-07-14T04:00:57Z beach says, having just complained about SLIME, for which he is sorry. 2015-07-14T04:01:00Z rritoch: theos: This is a ABCL project so it will also include java code, emacs I don't think is a good solution for that. 2015-07-14T04:01:15Z nyef: And then I'll leave you to imagine what would be even worse than notepad. (-:< 2015-07-14T04:01:25Z adhoc: rritoch: it isn't that bad 2015-07-14T04:01:46Z theos: rritoch emacs can do everything 2015-07-14T04:01:49Z adhoc: nyef: edlin for a start 2015-07-14T04:01:58Z nyef: adhoc: There you go! 2015-07-14T04:02:01Z rritoch: But yes, I need to get eclipse working or use a better editor for it. 2015-07-14T04:02:05Z beach: rritoch: Well, you can use whatever editor you want of course, but then please make sure your code is indented the way Emacs would have done it before submitting it for others to read. 2015-07-14T04:02:13Z nyef: adhoc: Ever tried editing a text file with DEBUG ? 2015-07-14T04:02:18Z adhoc: yes 2015-07-14T04:02:42Z goglosh: should I check 2015-07-14T04:02:50Z nyef: Ah, those were the days... They sucked, but were kindof cool anyway. 2015-07-14T04:02:53Z goglosh: Let over Lambda or On Lisp? 2015-07-14T04:03:05Z adhoc: nyef: no, no they weren't 2015-07-14T04:03:13Z theos: goglosh first On Lisp then LoL 2015-07-14T04:03:36Z goglosh: okay 2015-07-14T04:03:57Z goglosh: it's annoying how there are 2 lisp books named LoL 2015-07-14T04:04:21Z nyef: Yes they were. Writing a Forth implementation by carving out a fixed-size zero-filled .COM file with DEBUG and then filling it with short pieces of code, one at a time? That was awesome! 2015-07-14T04:04:50Z nyef: From DEBUG I can get Forth. From Forth I can get Lisp. 2015-07-14T04:05:24Z nyef: Also, from Forth I can get a real text editor, which speeds the whole process up dramatically. 2015-07-14T04:06:30Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T04:06:49Z adhoc: nyef: first you must create the universe 2015-07-14T04:07:07Z Quadrescence: to do what, bake an apple pie from scratch? 2015-07-14T04:07:11Z nyef: Heh. The number of times I've heard that tonight. (-: 2015-07-14T04:07:33Z adhoc: Quadrescence: apple pies are over rated. 2015-07-14T04:07:34Z goglosh: I understand lispers do that for breakfast 2015-07-14T04:07:41Z goglosh: create the universe I mean 2015-07-14T04:07:55Z nyef: goglosh: Oh, and here I thought you were talking about apple pie for breakfast. 2015-07-14T04:08:13Z adhoc: nyef: that works for me 2015-07-14T04:08:22Z goglosh: well if you can create a universe you sure can make apple pie 2015-07-14T04:08:31Z Quadrescence: goglosh, I'm not sure Lispers create the universe 2015-07-14T04:08:45Z Quadrescence: but they do Save #|the|# World occasionally ;) 2015-07-14T04:09:05Z goglosh: in world.lisp? 2015-07-14T04:09:09Z nyef: Quadrescence: SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE ! 2015-07-14T04:09:10Z dafunktion quit 2015-07-14T04:09:47Z theos: goglosh From the introduction of Let Over Lambda "There are very few good references or tutorials on macro construction. Paul Graham's On Lisp is one of the exceptions. Every word of On Lisp is required reading for anyone interested in macros. On Lisp and Graham's other writings were the most important inspirations for the creation of the book you are reading now." 2015-07-14T04:09:47Z goglosh: ^ cool name for a function 2015-07-14T04:09:49Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:10:24Z goglosh: alright then, on lisp it is 2015-07-14T04:12:48Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-14T04:13:05Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:13:25Z wemeetagain quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T04:15:04Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T04:17:29Z rritoch: Here's the same code with better indenting http://pastebin.com/ANpwqHqe 2015-07-14T04:17:58Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T04:18:34Z Bike: as i said, use labels, not that lambda 2015-07-14T04:19:30Z beach: rritoch: It is very twisted code. Use iteration rather than recursion. 2015-07-14T04:19:39Z Bike: beyond that the whole method is pretty inefficient... maybe try tracking just positions instead of consing up new strings. 2015-07-14T04:20:43Z rritoch: Bike: I'm sure it's not efficient, but when I googled for a string splitter I didn't find any decent examples, and most examples had bugs in them. 2015-07-14T04:20:57Z beach: rritoch: Is this an exercise, or do you really need to split a string? In the latter case, use SPLIT-SEQUENCE. 2015-07-14T04:21:08Z Bike: the one people usually use is split-sequence, yeah. 2015-07-14T04:21:13Z rritoch: beach: I really need to split strings of course 2015-07-14T04:21:27Z nyef uses cl-ppcre, but that's more because it's available for other reasons already. 2015-07-14T04:21:34Z beach: rritoch: I maintain that your code is very twisted. Why are you using recursion here? 2015-07-14T04:21:37Z Bike: https://github.com/sharplispers/split-sequence/blob/master/split-sequence.lisp#L142-L157 2015-07-14T04:24:31Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:24:47Z rritoch: Bike: Well, split sequence won't split on a string 2015-07-14T04:24:58Z beach: Oh? 2015-07-14T04:25:11Z rritoch: Bike: Well, when I try I'm getting an error 2015-07-14T04:25:19Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-14T04:25:31Z beach: You need to be more specific. 2015-07-14T04:25:39Z H4ns: rritoch: cl-ppcre:split just works 2015-07-14T04:26:33Z rritoch: (split-sequence "cd" "abcdef") > maximum depth exceeded 2015-07-14T04:26:43Z Bike: it takes an element, not a substring 2015-07-14T04:26:49Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-14T04:26:57Z Bike: you can do a substring with ppcre's, i think 2015-07-14T04:27:09Z Bike: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\Space "novit enum dominus qui sunt eius") => ("novit" "enum" "dominus" "qui" "sunt" "eius"), 32 2015-07-14T04:27:23Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:27:53Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-14T04:28:00Z Bike: but it's weird that you get an error, that should return ("abcdef"), 6. 2015-07-14T04:28:14Z beach: rritoch: I take it you don't care that your code is twisted? 2015-07-14T04:28:18Z H4ns: rritoch: cl-ppcre:split can split on any regular expression. 2015-07-14T04:28:18Z Bike: maybe you're using it in something else that's giving you the error. 2015-07-14T04:29:10Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:29:26Z rritoch: Bike: Using ABCL and working on developing a project/packager system for mixxed lisp+java projects. 2015-07-14T04:30:16Z Bike: what i mean is, i think split-sequence isn't causing the error, and if so you should try to avoid unnecessarily confusing us by reporting that it is 2015-07-14T04:31:38Z rritoch: When I typed it into my REPL it returned an error. I'm NOT using your platform, so if your platform doesn't throw the same error, that isn't on me, it's on ABCL, I have no way of knowing that it works on your platform. 2015-07-14T04:32:15Z Bike: you typed just (split-sequence "cd" "abcdef")? 2015-07-14T04:32:17Z rritoch: Sorry thta I confused you but I'm just returning to common lisp after about 20 year hiatus 2015-07-14T04:32:40Z Bike: maybe it's some weird abcl bug if so 2015-07-14T04:33:10Z rritoch: [10] CL-USER(30): (split-sequence "cd" "abcdef") 2015-07-14T04:33:10Z rritoch: 2015-07-14T04:33:11Z rritoch: Maximum error depth exceeded (14 nested errors) with 'The function SPLIT-SEQUENCE is undefined.'. 2015-07-14T04:33:11Z rritoch: [10] CL-USER(31): 2015-07-14T04:33:21Z Bike: okay. 2015-07-14T04:33:27Z Bike: so, i found your problem, eh. 2015-07-14T04:33:52Z rritoch: lol 2015-07-14T04:33:58Z H4ns: rritoch: "The function SPLIT-SEQUENCE is undefined." 2015-07-14T04:34:01Z Bike: (ql:quickload :split-sequence) 2015-07-14T04:34:08Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-14T04:34:09Z rritoch: I really should have read that better 2015-07-14T04:34:12Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:34:42Z Bike: wonder what the hell is making such a simple error error, but that's a different matter 2015-07-14T04:35:06Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:36:09Z rritoch: I haven't used common-lisp in 20 years, the last time I used it was in college. I'm trying to "necromance" it because clojure is too proprietary for me. 2015-07-14T04:37:19Z rritoch: But I am sorry, that was 100% my fault, I stopped reading after "Maximum error depth" 2015-07-14T04:37:52Z Bike: just try to be more specific in the future :) 2015-07-14T04:38:21Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T04:38:48Z rritoch: Bike: Anyhow, I don't have quicklist installed, and it won't be available to this app 2015-07-14T04:39:07Z rritoch: Bike: Since this app's job will be to install quicklisp for you, as one of it's tasks. 2015-07-14T04:39:30Z rritoch: err, quicklisp 2015-07-14T04:40:17Z Bike: you should probably get quicklisp for your own exploration, though 2015-07-14T04:42:29Z beach: and Emacs + SLIME. 2015-07-14T04:43:12Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T04:43:45Z Quadrescence: rritoch, what is proprietary about clojure? The Oracle JVM? 2015-07-14T04:46:02Z eazarlang_001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-14T04:46:03Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-14T04:46:11Z rritoch: Quadrescence: Clojure is the property of cognitect 2015-07-14T04:46:44Z Quadrescence: rritoch, I thought they just provide support and enterprise maintenance. 2015-07-14T04:46:46Z White__Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T04:46:54Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:47:27Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:48:53Z Quadrescence: rritoch, The source code is here under an open source license: https://github.com/clojure/clojure 2015-07-14T04:50:10Z rritoch: Quadrescence: According to the web site, Rich Hickey is the co-founder and CTO of cognitect, since he made clojure in their employ it seems they have ownership. 2015-07-14T04:50:54Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:51:37Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:51:43Z Quadrescence: rritoch, It is open source (i.e., it has an open source license), and contributions submitted to the Clojure project have copyright jointly assigned between the patch author and Rich Hickey. 2015-07-14T04:51:52Z Quadrescence: I would not classify that in any way as "proprietary". 2015-07-14T04:53:45Z loke: Are CFFI function calls not thread-safe? I'm looking at CFFI:PREPARE-FUNCTION and it caches the CIF in a hashtable, and its upadte isn't protected by a mutex. 2015-07-14T04:53:55Z Quadrescence: rritoch, Anyway, you might be surprised to find that Common Lisp's roots are in very proprietary, non-open-source soil, and there still are proprietary, non-open-source, non-free implementations. ;) 2015-07-14T04:54:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T04:54:19Z loke: As far as I can tell, you could corrupt the hashtable by attempting to multiple CFFI functions in parallel 2015-07-14T04:54:29Z rpg quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-14T04:54:58Z Quadrescence: loke, What is PREPARE-FUNCTION? 2015-07-14T04:55:02Z rritoch: Quadrescence: Sure, but Common Lisp itself is an open standard making common lisp itself non-proprietary, even if some implementations are proprietary 2015-07-14T04:55:02Z beach: Is it just my impression, or is it the case that more than half of the problems that are discussed here have to do with FFI? 2015-07-14T04:55:18Z rritoch: Quadrescence: As of now there are no standards associated with clojure 2015-07-14T04:55:24Z mea-culp` is now known as mea-culpa 2015-07-14T04:55:28Z Quadrescence: rritoch, The CL standard itself is proprietary! 2015-07-14T04:55:34Z Quadrescence: Not free to share, copy, or distribute. 2015-07-14T04:55:43Z beach: Most standards are proprietary. 2015-07-14T04:55:44Z loke: Quadrescence: It's an internal function that parses the cffi definition and creates some internal structures needed to do the foreign funcall 2015-07-14T04:55:56Z loke: Quadrescence: it needs to do that once for every call 2015-07-14T04:56:03Z loke: (the first call to every function, that is) 2015-07-14T04:56:05Z Quadrescence: loke, So you're worried about compiling DEFCFUNs in parallel? 2015-07-14T04:56:17Z Quadrescence: Ah, okay 2015-07-14T04:56:29Z loke: Quadrescence: Yes. Since this is performed not when the defcfun is compiled, but rather on the first call to the generated function 2015-07-14T04:57:04Z loke: so if you have two cfuns, say FOO and BAR and these functions first calls are called at the same time in different threads. 2015-07-14T04:57:22Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-14T04:57:32Z Quadrescence: loke, if it is as you say then yes that sounds dangerous 2015-07-14T04:57:40Z rritoch: Quadrescence: Sure, and as beach says, most standards are proprietary, most notably POSIX, which isn't even free. 2015-07-14T04:57:40Z loke: Or even, if you do a first call of FOO while at the same time calling _any_ other cffi function, the first call with alter the hashtable while the second call will look at the same hashtable at the saemt time 2015-07-14T04:57:50Z loke: (check PREPARE-FUNCTION in libffi/functions.lisp) 2015-07-14T04:58:14Z Quadrescence: rritoch, The Clojure source code is published, why couldn't you derive a new implementation from that? It doesn't sound like your quip is propriety, but implementation-independent standardization. 2015-07-14T04:58:21Z loke: (any cffi call becomes a macro that expands to a call to PREPARE-FUNCTION) 2015-07-14T04:58:21Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-14T04:58:27Z Quadrescence: loke, I did an apropos for PREPARE-FUNCTION and didn't see it. 2015-07-14T04:58:51Z rritoch: Quadrescence: There's no standard, so if you make your own implementation of clojure, your effectivly making your own language 2015-07-14T04:59:29Z Quadrescence: rritoch, If it matches the reference implementation, then it's fine, no? Like pypy for Python. 2015-07-14T04:59:40Z loke: Quadrescence: Ah, you need to do this on a cffi function that returns a structure 2015-07-14T04:59:54Z loke: Quadrescence: those are special because they are called through libffi 2015-07-14T05:00:49Z rritoch: Quadrescence: Python may not yet have a standard, but I suspect it isn't far down the road. There are numerous implementations of python right now so at some point a standard will be needed to ensure some level of compatibility between implementations. 2015-07-14T05:00:57Z loke: Quadrescence: functions that just returns a pointer or a single value does not expand into t a macro 2015-07-14T05:01:13Z Quadrescence: rritoch, Do you consider Python proprietary in the same way Clojure is? 2015-07-14T05:01:38Z jleija quit (Quit: good night everyone) 2015-07-14T05:02:32Z Quadrescence: loke, I see the definition of PREPARE-FUNCTION now, but I don't see its use. Anyway, like I said, it sounds like you're right and this could be problematic with parallel code. 2015-07-14T05:04:43Z rritoch: Quadrescence: I'm not sure. I see it's owned by the "Python Software Foundation" so I suppose it is proprietary 2015-07-14T05:05:50Z rritoch: Quadrescence: I've never attempted to contribute to python so I don't know what the politics of Python is. 2015-07-14T05:06:35Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:08:33Z rritoch: Quadrescence: Either way, the proprietary nature of python has nothing to do with why I chose common lisp over python. Python application management is too problematic since there's no binary compatibility between versions which leads to complex configuration and installation procedures. 2015-07-14T05:10:40Z rritoch: Quadrescence: So while I could have used Jython, ABCL is a my choice for scripting in JVM for now. Though I'm still transitioning from Clojure to ABCL as I only started using it 2 days ago. 2015-07-14T05:11:06Z loke: Filed a bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1474211 2015-07-14T05:11:52Z rritoch: Quadrescence: My choice to switch from Clojure to ABCL is purely rooted in the proprietary nature of Clojure. 2015-07-14T05:13:13Z Quadrescence: rritoch, I still don't understand what you're talking about. In fact you keep making completely non-sense claims. 2015-07-14T05:13:41Z beach: Quadrescence: Are you trying to discourage rritoch from using Common Lisp? :) 2015-07-14T05:13:51Z Quadrescence: No, but I don't like misinformation. ;) 2015-07-14T05:13:53Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:14:02Z beach: Typical for a lisper. 2015-07-14T05:14:07Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-07-14T05:14:52Z beach: rritoch: Anyway, welcome back to Common Lisp. I see we need to work on your programming style. 2015-07-14T05:16:03Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:16:11Z kristof: What a weird conversation 2015-07-14T05:16:28Z rritoch: beach: Ty, and your not the first to say that. The only reason anyone puts up with my code is that it works, but everyone complains that my code is unreadable and doesn't make sense. 2015-07-14T05:16:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:16:48Z rritoch: beach: I'm sure its something I need to work on. 2015-07-14T05:17:04Z beach: rritoch: Judging from your first submission, yes. 2015-07-14T05:17:34Z beach: But that kind of thing can be fixed. 2015-07-14T05:17:38Z beach: Nothing to worry about. 2015-07-14T05:17:54Z beach: Just a bit of work and a large amount of humility. 2015-07-14T05:18:09Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T05:18:27Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T05:19:47Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-14T05:20:21Z mtd joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:21:15Z theos: rritoch why dont you use SBCL? 2015-07-14T05:21:24Z rritoch: beach: Your profiling skills are scary. I don't believe I've ever been so accuratly profiled in a development community before. 2015-07-14T05:21:42Z beach: theos: I think he said it's a mixed Java + Common Lisp project. 2015-07-14T05:22:03Z theos: oh i thought he said he has to work with java because of abcl 2015-07-14T05:22:04Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-14T05:22:06Z rritoch: theos: I specifically need this to run on JVM 2015-07-14T05:22:31Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T05:23:23Z rritoch: theos: See http://ralph.ritoch.net/2015/02/12/web-development-programming-language-reviews/ 2015-07-14T05:23:27Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-14T05:23:32Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:24:27Z rritoch: theos: I strongly believe JVM is the best technology to facilitate the needs of future web development systems which include intelligent agents, and time based services. 2015-07-14T05:25:03Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T05:25:12Z rritoch: theos: JVM fails miserably at rapid development though, which is where common-lisp comes in. 2015-07-14T05:26:43Z eylusion_p_n joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:27:30Z rritoch: theos: I should say "java" fails miserably. Though I made that decision before learning about JRebel 2015-07-14T05:27:34Z eylusion_p quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T05:29:06Z theos: rritoch why not do everything in CL? everything that comes from java is crap imo 2015-07-14T05:29:13Z wolgo quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-14T05:30:14Z theos: there are also efforts(big ones) to introduce web-assembly language and kill all other webdev languages 2015-07-14T05:30:19Z rritoch: theos: Not many technologies are released with CL api's, but most are released with Java API's, so ABCL offers the best of both worlds. 2015-07-14T05:31:04Z rritoch: theos: If that happens, than great, as long as I can keep my java dependent code isolated, migrating to the next generation of compiled LISP won't be too painful. 2015-07-14T05:31:35Z theos: rritoch you have been programming for 30 years. i am sure you can make new technologies with CL. unless you are bound by company policy 2015-07-14T05:31:45Z beach: rritoch: What is "the next generations of compiled LISP"? 2015-07-14T05:32:05Z rritoch: theos: No, I'm an independent contractor, I own everythingn I make. 2015-07-14T05:32:35Z rritoch: beach: That is just my response to theos's comments that they're working on a web-assembly language 2015-07-14T05:33:02Z beach: rritoch: But what does it mean? 2015-07-14T05:34:32Z rritoch: beach: Since common lisp is an open standard, it is reasonable to believe it will be possible to implement it in any new "assembly language". 2015-07-14T05:34:46Z rritoch: beach: As long as that assembly language is turing complete 2015-07-14T05:34:51Z beach: I see. 2015-07-14T05:36:21Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T05:37:56Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:41:57Z rritoch: theos: Eventually I'll be able to make new technologies in CL, but there is a lot of yak shaving to do to implement existing technologies in CL. I don't see much yet for AOP or IOC in CL which I'll simply inherit from java by using ABCL. 2015-07-14T05:43:30Z rritoch: IOC = Inversion of Control 2015-07-14T05:45:13Z lieven: lol you are aware that AOP started in CL? 2015-07-14T05:45:49Z Quadrescence: rritoch, https://common-lisp.net/project/aspectl/overview.html 2015-07-14T05:46:33Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-14T05:47:06Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:47:27Z theos: rritoch most of the things that you see being implemented in popular languages is actually copied/stolen from lisp. and yes it will take time to switch to CL but it will be worth it. and you dont have to abandon java or python. 2015-07-14T05:48:03Z beach: rritoch: I think you need to hang out here a lot more before jumping to such general conclusions. 2015-07-14T05:48:10Z theos: ^^ 2015-07-14T05:49:15Z rritoch: beach: Sure, and I'm very aware that a lot of technologies were borrowed from LISP, like Java 8 finally implementing lambda expressions. 2015-07-14T05:49:45Z Quadrescence: Lisp stole FORTRAN's FORMAT!!! 2015-07-14T05:50:02Z rritoch: beach: I'm just saying that I don't see it, that doesn't mean it isn't there. 2015-07-14T05:50:37Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T05:50:37Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:51:10Z beach: rritoch: And I am saying that you could save a lot of work for yourself by assuming you need JVM for things that are more complete in Common Lisp anyway. 2015-07-14T05:51:33Z beach: By *not* assuming that, I guess. 2015-07-14T05:52:23Z rritoch: beach: Sure, but as I said orignally, many technologies are released with java API's that aren't released with LISP API's. 2015-07-14T05:52:45Z beach: But AOP is not one of them. 2015-07-14T05:53:12Z beach: rritoch: Also, we haven't written it "LISP" for the past few decades. Now we write "Lisp". 2015-07-14T05:53:32Z rritoch: beach: Can you direct me to something that explains how to implement AOP in Lisp? 2015-07-14T05:54:06Z beach: rritoch: Quadrescence gave you a link. Most of AOP already exists in CLOS as different method combinations. 2015-07-14T05:54:22Z theos: rritoch you be be amazed at how much lisp programmers had already achieved with little code long before most of the modern languages were invented. whenever you think of a new tech, lisp will say "been there, done that, forgotten, moved on" 2015-07-14T05:54:24Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:54:30Z theos: be/will 2015-07-14T05:54:57Z Quadrescence: lispers still have a lot of work to go though ;) 2015-07-14T05:55:04Z rritoch: Quadrescence: Thanks. I missed your link, and any "yak shaving" you can help me avoid is well appreciated 2015-07-14T05:55:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-14T05:55:35Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-14T05:55:45Z beach: rritoch: Aspect-oriented programming was invented by Greg Kiczales who also invented the Common Lisp metaobject protocol. 2015-07-14T05:58:22Z beach: rritoch: Here is my advice to you: Start by spending some time (a year maybe) to learn about modern Common Lisp programming practice and all the features of CLOS. Only then, decide what it is that you need from JVM. This is work that you need to do anyway if you want to program in Common Lisp at all, so it won't be wasted. 2015-07-14T05:58:33Z beach: rritoch: You can do what you want with this advice of course. 2015-07-14T05:58:40Z rritoch: Ok, well my ignorance asside. This is how I"m going to learn and avoid re-inventing the wheel, but it seems that to implement IOC would simply be a matter of using a custom reader/loader that extracts metadata and performs injections based on that metdata. 2015-07-14T05:58:49Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T05:59:17Z rritoch: Is that a fair statement or is there already an IOC engine for LISP also? 2015-07-14T05:59:31Z rritoch: err, Lisp... 2015-07-14T06:00:31Z beach: rritoch: I think you will find that no particular engine is required. 2015-07-14T06:00:34Z aeth: LISP, Lisp, lisp. Doesn't matter. It's case insensitive. 2015-07-14T06:00:44Z beach: aeth: It is not. 2015-07-14T06:01:01Z beach: rritoch: Most of that stuff is directly available through standard CLOS programming. 2015-07-14T06:01:19Z aeth: beach: It was a CL joke, sorry. 2015-07-14T06:01:20Z beach: rritoch: Which is why I recommend you spend some time learning about modern Common Lisp programming practice. 2015-07-14T06:02:42Z beach: rritoch: More generally, I think you will find that a large number of design patters exist to overcome limitations in traditional languages such as Java, and that those limitations do not exist in Common Lisp. 2015-07-14T06:03:49Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:04:19Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-14T06:04:22Z aeth: Right, that's the hardest think about Lisp. It has its own design patterns. 2015-07-14T06:04:23Z jasom: theos: to be fare, CLOS was not "long before most of the modern languages were invented." 2015-07-14T06:04:30Z rritoch: beach: IOC isn't about breaking limitations. It is about avoiding dependencies and producing cross-platform compatiblity through configuration instead of code. 2015-07-14T06:05:31Z beach: rritoch: I am saying that some of the reasons that people invent "engines" and "design patterns" is that it is hard to express what they want in traditional languages. So if you don't find such engines or design patterns in Common Lisp, it might be that they are not needed. 2015-07-14T06:05:58Z jasom: rritoch: Right, but IOC *frameworks* are about making IOC easier in the language, much of it is just natural in lisp 2015-07-14T06:05:59Z beach: rritoch: Inversion of Control doesn't require a name in Common Lisp because it is part of the standard CLOS programming practice and it is easy in Common Lisp. 2015-07-14T06:06:44Z beach: rritoch: Seriously, I really recommend that you learn modern Common Lisp programming practice first before discussing. 2015-07-14T06:07:07Z beach: rritoch: Many people here would be willing to help you with that. 2015-07-14T06:07:20Z Quadrescence: loke, are you going to patch CFFI? 2015-07-14T06:07:48Z Quadrescence: beach, When can you allocate time to write a C compiler with me in CL? 2015-07-14T06:07:56Z theos: jasom i was talking of lisp in general. CL is fairly "new" in the lisp family. 2015-07-14T06:08:13Z beach: aeth: You speak nonsense. That's a problem only when you are used to lesser languages and are having a hard time liberating your mind from their restrictions. 2015-07-14T06:08:41Z beach: Quadrescence: That sounds like a great idea. I have been thinking about it. 2015-07-14T06:08:45Z rritoch: beach: I see that CLOS provides OOP to clojure, though I don't specifically see the dependency injection feature, or pattern. If you can provide an example that would be great. 2015-07-14T06:08:58Z H4ns cries 2015-07-14T06:08:58Z rritoch: err, Lisp not clojure, sorry, still in transition 2015-07-14T06:09:14Z Quadrescence: beach, I have for a very long time and I would really, really like to dedicate time to work on it. 2015-07-14T06:09:42Z beach: Quadrescence: Are you serious? It's a lot of work. 2015-07-14T06:09:58Z Quadrescence: beach, yes it is, I don't know if I could do all the fancy stuff, but maybe C89 and before. 2015-07-14T06:10:24Z Quadrescence: beach, And I am a bit more greedy. I don't want "just" another C compiler, I want it integrated into Lisp. 2015-07-14T06:10:44Z beach: Hmm. "integrated" how? 2015-07-14T06:10:47Z rritoch: As a "pure" example. I have some code which deals with the database using ANSI SQL and I need to dependency inject the driver for the specific database implementation being used. 2015-07-14T06:10:51Z theos: jasom looks like OOP started with lisp around 50s-60s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming#History 2015-07-14T06:11:18Z Quadrescence: beach, In the style of C on the Lisp Machines for example, Zeta C, etc. I want to (as much as possible) have Lisp and C coexist. 2015-07-14T06:11:27Z rritoch: That is the most common situation. The user of the application edits the configuration file to use the appropriate driver. 2015-07-14T06:11:39Z Quadrescence: But that presents issues with GC and friends, or you rely very liberally on the interpretation of the C standard. 2015-07-14T06:11:40Z beach: Quadrescence: So you want C pointers to be safe and such? 2015-07-14T06:11:57Z jasom: rritoch: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8399626/point-of-using-dependency-injection-and-for-that-matter-an-ioc-container-in-li 2015-07-14T06:12:06Z Quadrescence: beach, To have them be safe means that you need to take a very liberal interpretation of the C standard, AFAIK. 2015-07-14T06:12:12Z jasom: rritoch: it's not a *great* example, but I didn't have to write it :) 2015-07-14T06:12:47Z beach: Quadrescence: Not necessarily. The C standard basically already contains the restrictions required. Nobody checks them though. 2015-07-14T06:13:01Z jasom: beach: it allows conversion from inegers to pointers and back 2015-07-14T06:13:01Z rritoch: jasom: Thanks, reading it now 2015-07-14T06:13:03Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:13:21Z jasom: beach: as long as the integral type is "large enough" 2015-07-14T06:13:27Z jasom: so there is some wiggle room around that 2015-07-14T06:14:04Z jasom: "all pointers are larger than the largest integer supported" would be a valid implementation 2015-07-14T06:14:15Z beach: jasom: Yeah, I would need to think about how to do things like that. 2015-07-14T06:14:17Z jasom: but it won't run much of existing C code 2015-07-14T06:14:19Z ggole: asm.lisp: implement a C heap by shifting values into and out of bignums 2015-07-14T06:14:27Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T06:14:49Z jasom: alternatively you could pin all locations referrenced by integers 2015-07-14T06:15:00Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:15:29Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-14T06:15:32Z rritoch: jasom: Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for :) 2015-07-14T06:15:35Z jasom: most people don't realize it, but malloc() is not allowed to be used for heterogenous types, so the first non-character type used to access an allocation can be considered to be "the type" of that allocation 2015-07-14T06:15:49Z beach: I'll let Quadrescence think about things like that. I am just thinking that Common Lisp would be the ideal language for writing a C compiler, or a compiler for many languages, really. 2015-07-14T06:15:51Z jasom: beach: union is the other sticky point 2015-07-14T06:16:42Z jasom: but you could allocate some extra space with the union to tag it with what the last accessed type was 2015-07-14T06:16:57Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T06:16:59Z rritoch: I suppose this brings me back to a specific question I should ask, which is vageuly related to IOC 2015-07-14T06:17:01Z beach: In fact, I think I read somewhere that GCC is now using garbage collection more and more, for programmer sanity I would imagine. 2015-07-14T06:17:48Z jasom: beach: I've seen more than one C compiler that just allocates memory and resets the heap after processing each function 2015-07-14T06:18:10Z jasom: beach: since C compilers are usually self-hosting they can allow themselves to do that 2015-07-14T06:18:13Z beach: I guess that would be another way of preserving programmer sanity. 2015-07-14T06:18:18Z rritoch: I'm parsing my command line's first argument as the "command", the command itself will exist as SOMEPREFIX-COMMAND::COMMAND 2015-07-14T06:19:01Z rritoch: What is the best way of doing that, without using eval since I can't easily pass an array and configuration to eval as far as I can tell. 2015-07-14T06:19:28Z jasom: rritoch: so just (apply (intern (string-upcase argument) :someprefix-command) other-arguments) 2015-07-14T06:19:29Z beach: clsh symbol-function 2015-07-14T06:19:30Z aeth: beach: Nonsense? Lisp has design patterns not in other languages, related to macros, etc. Unless I have a mistaken definition of "design pattern". 2015-07-14T06:20:01Z beach: clhs symbol-function 2015-07-14T06:20:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_1.htm 2015-07-14T06:20:48Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T06:21:02Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-14T06:21:12Z aeth: beach: couldn't e.g. this be classified as a design pattern? http://random-state.net/log/3390120648.html 2015-07-14T06:21:15Z jasom: rritoch: you can add configuration &ct to the apply anyway 2015-07-14T06:21:58Z jasom: no need to use symbol-function typically, as funcall and apply both take function designators 2015-07-14T06:22:15Z beach: rritoch: What jasom said. 2015-07-14T06:25:25Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:25:29Z jasom: Is it me, or does Java make IOC really, really hard? I don't do much java, but looking at some examples of IOC in it frightens me. 2015-07-14T06:25:34Z rritoch: jasom: Thanks, that is awesome :) 2015-07-14T06:25:46Z jasom: clhs apply 2015-07-14T06:25:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 2015-07-14T06:25:49Z jasom: clhs funcall 2015-07-14T06:25:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm 2015-07-14T06:25:52Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-14T06:26:00Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-14T06:26:01Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:26:23Z rritoch: jasom: Java uses two methods for IOC, XML configuration and/or Annotation configuration. Most systems, like spring, offer both, doubling the learning curve 2015-07-14T06:26:29Z jasom: rritoch: depending on whether you want the function to take the args as separate arguments, or as a list, you can use apply or funcall. Apply just unpacks the last argument for you 2015-07-14T06:26:48Z jasom: rritoch: spring is the source of that infamous class, isn't it? 2015-07-14T06:26:58Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:27:14Z jasom: AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean <-- there it is 2015-07-14T06:27:56Z jasom: 4 GoF referrences in a single class name 2015-07-14T06:28:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:28:31Z rritoch: jasom: I understand, the intern function is the key, converting string & symbol to a callable function is what I needed. The rest is implementation details I can worry about later. 2015-07-14T06:29:14Z larme quit (K-Lined) 2015-07-14T06:29:14Z gko quit (K-Lined) 2015-07-14T06:29:55Z larme joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:30:13Z gko joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:30:55Z rritoch: So basicaly, Lisp already has all the features I need, but I couldn't find them without this chatroom. We (I) need to see less coding and more blogging :) keeping all of this important information in your heads and only sharing them with those who dare to ask is unfair. 2015-07-14T06:31:37Z aeth: Java makes everything hard. https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition 2015-07-14T06:31:46Z jasom googled for lisp dependency injection to find the stack-overflow article 2015-07-14T06:31:55Z rritoch: I partially blame google though, google gives horrible results for anything Lisp related. 2015-07-14T06:32:15Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T06:32:29Z rritoch: At least that's my impression so far 2015-07-14T06:32:45Z aeth: I agree. 2015-07-14T06:32:49Z jasom: rritoch: it's hard because lisp is a word with many meanings 2015-07-14T06:32:50Z H4ns: rritoch: you could also reach out for one of the several good lisp books and read them first. that'd give you a head start and make it easier for you to navigate the information that is available, which is plenty. 2015-07-14T06:33:12Z jasom: minion: tell rritoch about book 2015-07-14T06:33:14Z minion: book: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/book 2015-07-14T06:33:23Z aeth: jasom: yes but if you prefix it with "common lisp" it's not smart enough to realize that you're prefixing it with "common lisp" to disambiguate meanings, and so you eliminate a lot of otherwise relevant results 2015-07-14T06:33:35Z aeth: jasom: also Google handles Python okay and that has multiple meanings too 2015-07-14T06:33:46Z rritoch: I'm not a big fan of second-hand information though 2015-07-14T06:34:08Z jasom: minion: tell rritoch about pcl 2015-07-14T06:34:08Z minion: rritoch: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-14T06:34:32Z aeth: But I guess the problem is that "Lisp" has multiple *programming* meanings so even when the results start being customized to programming ones, there's lots of e.g. emacs lisp results 2015-07-14T06:35:00Z rritoch: Where can I actually find the ANSI Lisp specification, google just brings me to Lisp works which has been the source I've found for most of my searches 2015-07-14T06:35:17Z tajjada quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-14T06:35:19Z aeth: use http://l1sp.org/html/ 2015-07-14T06:35:39Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-14T06:35:50Z jasom: rritoch: you need to pay money to ANSI for the actual specification; the hyperspec is free and written by the editor of the ANSI standard. 2015-07-14T06:36:08Z H4ns: the actual ansi spec is not worth the money. 2015-07-14T06:36:08Z theos: rritoch CLTL2 and CL hyperspec 2015-07-14T06:36:28Z jasom: the cl hyperspec is what everyone uses in practice 2015-07-14T06:36:51Z rritoch: aeth: That link is broken 2015-07-14T06:36:52Z jasom: you can even download it and have emacs look stuff up in it for you 2015-07-14T06:36:54Z lieven: KMP even kept in his mistakes like the definition of PROG2 :) 2015-07-14T06:37:17Z jasom: lieven: and the inclusion of the LOOP macro 2015-07-14T06:37:19Z jasom ducks 2015-07-14T06:37:52Z lieven: heh I would argue that the mistake was excluding the extension mechanism from LOOP but then I like LOOP :) 2015-07-14T06:38:02Z aeth: rritoch: it works for me, in case your font is bad, that's a "1" (one) not a "l" (the letter) in the 2nd position 2015-07-14T06:38:20Z jasom: I actually like LOOP too, but it seems to be one of the more controversial inclusions 2015-07-14T06:38:53Z rritoch: aeth: L1sp.org is a redirect service for Common Lisp documentation. For example, try these links: ? 2015-07-14T06:38:54Z lieven: also a nice example of IOC 2015-07-14T06:39:00Z jasom: also see this: http://xach.com/lisp/clhs-lookup/ 2015-07-14T06:39:18Z aeth: jasom: right but l1sp also shows other results, e.g. alexandria's documentation and pcl 2015-07-14T06:39:25Z aeth: so I switched to l1sp 2015-07-14T06:39:57Z jasom: aeth: oh, that's nice 2015-07-14T06:40:04Z jasom: MOP as well? 2015-07-14T06:40:22Z aeth: yes 2015-07-14T06:40:25Z aeth: http://l1sp.org/search?q=make-instance 2015-07-14T06:41:36Z aeth: *oh* now I know what's going on 2015-07-14T06:42:12Z aeth: the results use /s because you can generate redirects that way. so http://l1sp.org/mop/make-instance 2015-07-14T06:43:57Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:44:18Z aeth: I've actually never really read the main page before because I just go to it through !l1sp in DuckDuckGo 2015-07-14T06:44:26Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:45:15Z aeth: !lisp is http://lispdoc.com/ but the results are a lot more verbose than !l1sp 2015-07-14T06:45:22Z beach: jasom: Xach recently made l1sp.org redirect to metamodular.com for MOP queries. 2015-07-14T06:45:24Z rritoch: Thanks everyone for your help. I have a baby bird here begging for attention so I need to take a break. Even if I wanted to buy the ANSI Lisp standard, the link I found is broken 2015-07-14T06:45:27Z theos: clhs make-instance 2015-07-14T06:45:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ins.htm 2015-07-14T06:45:38Z rritoch: One last question before I go, Would http://clhs.lisp.se/Front/Contents.htm be a decent starting point? 2015-07-14T06:46:05Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:46:12Z beach: rritoch: That is the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2015-07-14T06:46:42Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T06:46:42Z rritoch: beach: Thanks, I'll take that as a yes. 2015-07-14T06:46:57Z beach: rritoch: That is not the typical URL you would use, though. 2015-07-14T06:47:18Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:47:24Z aeth: rritoch: The way I use the hyperspec is by searching for specific things through an external search engine rather than directly reading it cover to cover 2015-07-14T06:48:18Z aeth: You'll have to use a Lisp-specific one if you want to e.g. look for #+ because Google's not going to recognize that. http://l1sp.org/search?q=%23%2B 2015-07-14T06:48:36Z rritoch: Beach, well I just want to go end-to-end so I don't miss anything. Reading it is being added to my todo list, there's already some documentation I need to finish which is more of a priority since my clients haven't specifically granted me permission to use Lisp. 2015-07-14T06:49:08Z antoszka: I don't think the ANSI spec is freely available, but the CLHS is about as close as you'll get. Correct me if I'm wrong. 2015-07-14T06:49:16Z beach: rritoch: Go to http://www.lispworks.com/ and download your own copy. 2015-07-14T06:49:39Z rritoch: beach: The link at lispworks.com for the official spec is broken. 2015-07-14T06:49:43Z antoszka: Also, CLtL2, available in print form is as close as you'll get in a cover-to-cover form, but it's pre-ANSI. 2015-07-14T06:49:57Z beach: rritoch: Works for me. 2015-07-14T06:49:59Z rritoch: beach: "The document you tried to access is not available or may have been replaced by a newer version. " 2015-07-14T06:50:18Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-14T06:50:27Z beach: rritoch: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/common-lisp.html 2015-07-14T06:50:30Z rritoch: beach: Who knows, I could be geoblocked 2015-07-14T06:50:38Z beach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm 2015-07-14T06:50:42Z theos: ftp://ftp.lispworks.com/pub/software_tools/reference/HyperSpec-7-0.tar.gz 2015-07-14T06:50:56Z theos: rritoch ^^ 2015-07-14T06:51:06Z loke: Quadrescence: well, I could patch it by simply adding a lock 2015-07-14T06:51:25Z aeth: the easiest way to get blocked or recently removed content is to use the Internet Archive imo: https://web.archive.org/web/20150522074110/http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/common-lisp.html 2015-07-14T06:51:27Z beach: antoszka: Correct about the ANSI spec and the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2015-07-14T06:51:30Z aeth: If for some reason it's being blocked in your area 2015-07-14T06:51:32Z rritoch: theos: Thanks, I do prefer offline reading 2015-07-14T06:51:53Z loke: However, it seems silly to me to have every single call to the function acquire a lock just because of the initialisation 2015-07-14T06:52:08Z loke: seems to me that it would make more sense to use a copy-on-write mechanism here 2015-07-14T06:52:39Z loke: Also, perhaps it would make more sense to keep the cached data in the symbol-plist of the function name instead of in a hash 2015-07-14T06:52:57Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:53:10Z antoszka: beach: thx 2015-07-14T06:53:33Z beach: antoszka: ywlcm 2015-07-14T06:53:38Z antoszka: :) 2015-07-14T06:54:23Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:54:32Z rritoch: Ok, well I'm headed out. Thanks again. 2015-07-14T06:54:47Z rritoch quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-14T06:56:19Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-14T06:57:18Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-14T07:03:06Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-14T07:03:43Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T07:06:40Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-14T07:07:58Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-14T07:08:12Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-14T07:10:46Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-14T07:12:22Z replcated joined #lisp 2015-07-14T07:14:11Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T07:16:53Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T07:21:23Z keen__________18 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T07:22:42Z keen__________18 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T07:23:03Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-14T07:25:23Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-14T07:26:48Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T07:29:06Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T07:31:00Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T07:31:00Z copycat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T07:31:08Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-14T07:34:23Z bin7me joined #lisp 2015-07-14T07:40:01Z cosmonaut joined #lisp 2015-07-14T07:42:11Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T07:42:58Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T07:55:17Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T07:56:33Z cosmonaut left #lisp 2015-07-14T07:59:29Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:04:14Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:05:01Z beach: So for bootstrapping SICL, I *could* define a version of COMPILE-FILE that translates to HIR, then translates HIR to Common Lisp, writes the result to a file that is then compiled with the host compiler. Loading the host FASL would then define some function MUMBLE:F that, when called with some first-class global environment E, executes the load-time side effects in E. 2015-07-14T08:05:06Z beach: But is it worth it? 2015-07-14T08:05:44Z Shinmera: I don't know how much work that would take to get going. From your description it sounds deceptively easy. 2015-07-14T08:05:44Z minion: Shinmera, memo from pjb: however, throwing oneself off a cliff seems to be quite the fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nx37ccqHMk 2015-07-14T08:06:02Z beach: It probably isn't that hard actually. 2015-07-14T08:06:24Z Shinmera: Sounds like a simple way to get the bootstrapping time trimmed down then. 2015-07-14T08:06:38Z beach: That's exactly what I am contemplating. 2015-07-14T08:08:19Z lotekkk joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:10:06Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-14T08:12:35Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T08:12:47Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-14T08:12:48Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:15:48Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:16:20Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:18:04Z beach: Currently, in the host environment, the result of compiling a form is 1. A function that can be compiled in the NULL lexical environment by the host compiler, and 2. A list of FORMs. To "load" the result of the compilation, the function should be called with the VALUEs of the forms in some first-class global environment. 2015-07-14T08:18:05Z beach: I could wrap all that into a globally-defined function (say MUMBLE:F) that takes the environment as an argument, calls the environment-relative EVAL on the forms, and passes the result to the function generated as result number 1. 2015-07-14T08:20:06Z beach: (defun mumle:f (env) (apply (lambda (...) ...) (loop for form in forms collect (env:eval form env)))) 2015-07-14T08:20:10Z beach: Something like that. 2015-07-14T08:20:32Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:20:55Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:20:56Z lotekkk quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-14T08:21:24Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-14T08:21:40Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:21:48Z beach: Or, instead of DEFUN MUMBLE:F I could do (SETF (FDEFINITION 'MUMBLE:F) (LAMBDA (ENV) ....)) to avoid warnings about redefined functions. 2015-07-14T08:21:56Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:22:59Z dmitigr: after reading some ugly c++ mess how it pleasant to see nice (setf (fdetinition ... :-) 2015-07-14T08:23:08Z Shinmera: Why does it need to be a globally defined function? Can't you just store it in a special varialbe or something? 2015-07-14T08:23:33Z Shinmera: Or even better: A hash map associating FASLs to their "top level function" 2015-07-14T08:23:41Z beach: Shinmera: Sure, same thing. But nothing can be returned from CL:LOAD, so it needs to have some global side effect. 2015-07-14T08:23:47Z Shinmera: Right. 2015-07-14T08:24:53Z beach: Whether I store all the loaded functions or not depends on how long it takes to load the FASL by the host CL:LOAD. 2015-07-14T08:25:28Z beach: Actually, if I am going to store them in a hash table, I don't need to use the host COMPILE-FILE. 2015-07-14T08:25:48Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:26:09Z beach: That's probably even easier. 2015-07-14T08:26:18Z beach: Thanks Shinmera! :) 2015-07-14T08:26:40Z Shinmera: Sure. 2015-07-14T08:27:25Z beach: Ah, but then I still have to recompile when I exit the host Common Lisp environment. 2015-07-14T08:28:25Z beach: Decisions, decisions. 2015-07-14T08:28:49Z p_l: is there a quicklisp utility to delete all but newest version of package? 2015-07-14T08:29:01Z dmitigr: folks, is it possible unload packages? 2015-07-14T08:29:45Z Shinmera: clhs delete-package 2015-07-14T08:29:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_del_pk.htm 2015-07-14T08:29:52Z guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:30:52Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:31:36Z Shinmera: p_l: (ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:find-dist "quicklisp")) 2015-07-14T08:32:03Z Shinmera thinks that's the way to do it, but isn't 100% sure 2015-07-14T08:32:25Z dmitigr: Shinmera: thank you! Yet another question. What if I redefine a function (handler of Hunchentoot) while it running to serve some request (in production)? 2015-07-14T08:32:39Z Shinmera: dmitigr: What if? 2015-07-14T08:33:37Z dmitigr: Shinmera: umm, what consequences? is it fine to do it on "active" system, or I need to stop before? 2015-07-14T08:34:09Z Shinmera: dmitigr: How about you try it out? 2015-07-14T08:35:45Z dmitigr: Shinmera: it would be nice to know about consequences before trying something :-) 2015-07-14T08:35:56Z Shinmera: Why? You can try it at home with your own machine. 2015-07-14T08:36:36Z Shinmera: It won't delete your hard drive if that's a concern. 2015-07-14T08:38:03Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-14T08:38:07Z guthur`: dmitigr: there are probably not guarantees, but if existing lambda is currently being executed it will probably be fine 2015-07-14T08:39:34Z guthur`: I don't think i would recommend doing it too often in production 2015-07-14T08:39:54Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T08:39:56Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:40:14Z dmitigr: Shinmera: yes, I can and I know that such experiments does not broke my hdd. But I want to know what behaviour is expected before trying :-) 2015-07-14T08:40:24Z Shinmera: I'm doing it in production often enough. The far more problematic thing is APIs slipping away under your feet. 2015-07-14T08:40:59Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:41:01Z dmitigr: guthur`: thank you! 2015-07-14T08:42:06Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-14T08:43:00Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:43:49Z dmitigr: Shinmera: I know that Lisp is an excellent language to experiments! But knowledge of mature Lisp hackers are irreplaceable. So, I think it better to ask. 2015-07-14T08:43:58Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:44:04Z schjetne: Are the ELS 2015 lightning talk slides available somewhere? 2015-07-14T08:44:12Z Shinmera: Well I don't consider myself a mature lisp hacker, so 2015-07-14T08:44:19Z schjetne: I'm struggling to remember the name of that Erlang-style concurrency library 2015-07-14T08:44:50Z dmitigr: Shinmera: everything is relative. compared to me -- you are :-) 2015-07-14T08:44:52Z Shinmera: schjetne: Mine are up https://github.com/Shinmera/talks and re-recorded https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkDl6Irujx9PL5LfhvvkkeMiCiDij8jzM 2015-07-14T08:45:06Z Shinmera: schjetne: But in general, nothing is up unless the authors did it themselves. 2015-07-14T08:45:42Z schjetne: Ah. If I can find my proceedings I might have scribbled it there 2015-07-14T08:45:50Z Shinmera: dmitigr: Generally code redefinition is not problematic. What is problematic is when you run into mismatches because you forgot to define a function or the API is not consistent anymore. 2015-07-14T08:46:03Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:46:10Z schjetne: My desk is in a perpetual state of disarray 2015-07-14T08:46:28Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T08:47:09Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:48:55Z dmitigr: Shinmera: I see. Thank you. 2015-07-14T08:48:58Z guthur`: Shinmera: which is another excellent reason why one should be rather careful about doing it in production. If I've released and deployed version x.y.z then redefined a lot of functions what version is now deployed 2015-07-14T08:49:31Z Shinmera: guthur`: Sure, but if you keep that in check you should be just fine and dandy. 2015-07-14T08:49:32Z guthur`: of course when the proverbial hits the fan it's nice to be able to go in there interactively 2015-07-14T08:50:25Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:50:40Z guthur`: very much like all the power in Lisp, it should be used responsibly 2015-07-14T08:51:12Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-14T08:51:14Z Shinmera: I've updated colleen on the fly a lot, as well as my websites. It's really not a problem as long as you know what you're doing. And if you don't, you can still emergency fix it easily enough 2015-07-14T08:51:28Z Shinmera: as long as you don't crash your lisp entirely by heap exhaustion or memory corruption. 2015-07-14T08:51:48Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:51:59Z dmitigr: Shinmera: do you have "websites" under SBCL runtime? 2015-07-14T08:52:23Z Shinmera: dmitigr: everything on tymoon.eu, yes. 2015-07-14T08:52:40Z Shinmera: most prominently, http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/ and http://blog.tymoon.eu 2015-07-14T08:52:40Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-14T08:52:51Z dmitigr: Shinmera: okay, I'll check! :-) what is the longest uptime you have? 2015-07-14T08:53:11Z Shinmera: My uptime isn't great because of some FD problem I haven't figured out yet because I lack the time to debug it 2015-07-14T08:54:00Z Shinmera: Currently I'm at 10 days. 2015-07-14T08:54:13Z Shinmera: There's people that have lisp servers running for months or years though 2015-07-14T08:55:07Z dmitigr: Shinmera: I'm asking because I choised CL as middleware language for relatively big startup. 2015-07-14T08:55:31Z Shinmera: dmitigr: Then you should ask people that have experience running CL on a large scale. Which isn't me. 2015-07-14T08:55:46Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-14T08:55:51Z dmitigr: Shinmera: who then? :-) 2015-07-14T08:55:59Z guthur`: dmitigr: my last employer deployed a CL system that would serve very high volume and profile websites 2015-07-14T08:56:17Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-14T08:56:29Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T08:56:43Z dmitigr: guthur`: nice to know! SBCL? 2015-07-14T08:56:45Z guthur`: with no real problem what so ever, I only know of one situation where we had a problem in the system, and it was on a very old version that the client dragged their heels about upgrading 2015-07-14T08:56:50Z guthur`: LispWorks 2015-07-14T08:57:02Z Shinmera: dmitigr: the Google Flights team is running SBCL in production 2015-07-14T08:57:22Z guthur`: SBCL is a solid implementation 2015-07-14T08:57:40Z guthur`: ITA (Google Flights) used that 2015-07-14T08:57:44Z dmitigr: Shinmera: uh, AFAIK, Douglas Katzman from Google? :-) 2015-07-14T08:57:49Z guthur`: ...to AFAIK 2015-07-14T08:58:00Z dmiles_afk quit 2015-07-14T08:58:36Z guthur`: there is also a company in Spain doing high volume news ticket parsing for finanical market sector 2015-07-14T08:58:57Z jdz: ravenpak 2015-07-14T08:59:02Z jdz: Ravenpack even 2015-07-14T08:59:05Z Shinmera: somewrite (A Japanese company) are using lisp as well. 2015-07-14T08:59:15Z guthur`: yep http://www.ravenpack.com/ 2015-07-14T08:59:32Z beach: They are even hiring, I think. 2015-07-14T08:59:47Z Shinmera: Both are, yes. 2015-07-14T08:59:51Z jdz: first entry on https://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ 2015-07-14T08:59:56Z guthur`: Shinmera: yeah just spotted them last night, If I hadn't just started a new job i might have been interested in contacting them to see if there are stil roles 2015-07-14T09:00:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:00:24Z Posterdati: hi 2015-07-14T09:00:24Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-14T09:00:26Z beach: Spain would be a great place to live, I would think. 2015-07-14T09:00:30Z Posterdati: in Tokyo? 2015-07-14T09:00:33Z guthur`: there is also a company in portugal doing train resource optimization, really cool stuff 2015-07-14T09:00:37Z beach: Hello Posterdati. 2015-07-14T09:01:05Z jdz: guthur`: yeah, i've recently learned their software runs London underground 2015-07-14T09:01:34Z guthur`: I seen them are ECL a few years ago, really interesting system 2015-07-14T09:01:38Z guthur`: are/at 2015-07-14T09:01:48Z guthur`: ECL/ELS 2015-07-14T09:03:05Z dmitigr: well I hope I'll not fail with SBCL :-) 2015-07-14T09:03:42Z guthur`: Failure will unlikely be because of the implementation 2015-07-14T09:04:36Z guthur`: you have a powerful tool with Lisp, leverage it to developer quality functionality in a timely fashion 2015-07-14T09:05:03Z marc_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:05:18Z jdz: there's also Grammarly 2015-07-14T09:05:34Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T09:06:38Z jdz: http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/running-lisp-in-production-at-grammarly.html 2015-07-14T09:07:11Z dmitigr: guthur`: I'll try. But from C++ experience I guess that knowledge of implementation is requered, because of possible platform bugs. 2015-07-14T09:07:38Z dmitigr: guthur`: so, I bother about reliability of the platform. 2015-07-14T09:07:56Z jdz: dmitigr: i'm just curious why would you choose CL if you're not familiar with it? 2015-07-14T09:09:59Z dmitigr: jdz: yes, I came from C++ world. Because I want to up my skills and I believe that Lisp can help. 2015-07-14T09:10:28Z jdz: dmitigr: do you at least have somebody proficient in CL in your startup? 2015-07-14T09:11:10Z dmitigr: jdz: no, I'm absolutely alone :-) 2015-07-14T09:13:12Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:13:29Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T09:14:20Z beach: jdz: Perhaps dmitigr read the paper by Hudak et al, showing that it could take very little to become more productive with a good new language than with a mediocre language that one is familiar with. 2015-07-14T09:14:48Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:14:48Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T09:15:34Z dmitigr: beach: no, I read the paper by Paul Graham :-) 2015-07-14T09:15:45Z beach: That works too. 2015-07-14T09:15:54Z beach: Otherwise, here it is: http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~apt/cs457_2005/hudak-jones.pdf 2015-07-14T09:16:24Z beach: It focuses on Haskell, but the message is independent of the particular language, if you read the paper carefully. 2015-07-14T09:24:03Z dmitigr: jdz: actually, some time ago I had a dilemma: write my little web toolkit in C++ or learn Common Lisp and use existence solutions. I've choised second. Do you think it was mistake? :-) 2015-07-14T09:24:23Z jdz: dmitigr: i definitely think it is not a mistake 2015-07-14T09:25:00Z jdz: i was just trying to say that having somebody proficient in CL would let you skip a lot of "noob" mistakes 2015-07-14T09:25:01Z copycat1 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:25:31Z jdz: for instance, to have the sense of when to use macros, and more importantly, when not to 2015-07-14T09:26:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T09:26:39Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-14T09:26:41Z schjetne: I found my copy of the proceedings, it was Max Rottenkolber with Erlangen, but I can't find anything about it online. I wanted to give the actor model a try, and wondered what was the most recent offering. 2015-07-14T09:28:00Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-14T09:28:39Z dmitigr: jdz: it's okay, because it's impossible to avoid mistakes. But it is possible to avoid Greenspun's Tenth Rule :-) 2015-07-14T09:29:14Z dmitigr: beach: thanks for the article! 2015-07-14T09:30:38Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:31:06Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-14T09:31:17Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2015-07-14T09:32:08Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:33:19Z beach: dmitigr: Pleasure. One day, I will write a review of that article, and discuss the consequences for managing software projects. 2015-07-14T09:33:32Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:35:32Z dmitigr: after all I decide to learn Common Lisp because I need a powerful language to express my own stuff from scratch (excluding very base stuff), because I don't like to use libraries (especially the C++ libraries). I think that Lisp is already higly abtracted tool for DSL generation for expressing ideas from scratch. 2015-07-14T09:37:09Z marc_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-14T09:37:19Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:37:36Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T09:38:04Z dmitigr: C++'s classes or templates are not enougth for me to express ideas, because they are force me to think at too low abstracted level. 2015-07-14T09:39:24Z guthur` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T09:39:45Z guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:44:06Z xificurC: pjb: quite late answer but yesterday you wrote it is much better to write generic code than to use types. Would you care to elaborate on this topic? I've toyed around with Haskell and OCaml to appreciate the compile time guarantees the type system provides. Moreover haskell's type classes offer a way to write generic code within the right constraints. I'm not defending these languages, just saying the cons I 2015-07-14T09:44:08Z xificurC: know while I don't have enough knowledge to list the cons of 'generic code' 2015-07-14T09:44:51Z copycat1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T09:47:12Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T09:47:19Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:48:19Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T09:49:02Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T09:49:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:50:20Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:53:25Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-14T09:56:23Z spacebat1: is there a portable way to determine whether a symbol has a been declared special? 2015-07-14T09:56:36Z Shinmera: No 2015-07-14T09:56:47Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T09:57:10Z Shinmera: But have a look here for some implementations' versions https://github.com/Shinmera/staple/blob/master/symbols.lisp#L213 2015-07-14T09:57:52Z spacebat1: sbcl's way of warning on setq before defvar is annoying 2015-07-14T09:58:13Z Shinmera: You shouldn't be doing it in the first place 2015-07-14T09:59:03Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-14T09:59:37Z spacebat1: I don't like the word should :) 2015-07-14T10:00:06Z Shinmera: That's your problem 2015-07-14T10:00:08Z H4ns: spacebat1: don't do it. 2015-07-14T10:01:27Z spacebat1: not even at the repl? setq is wordy enough, defparameter doesn't exactly roll off the fingers 2015-07-14T10:01:43Z Shinmera: You can use it /after/ you've declared your variable. 2015-07-14T10:01:57Z H4ns: spacebat1: defp<tab> 2015-07-14T10:02:25Z spacebat1: that blocks at defpackage vs defparameter 2015-07-14T10:02:32Z H4ns: spacebat1: defv<tab> 2015-07-14T10:02:46Z spacebat1: defvar doesn't clobber upon re-evaluation 2015-07-14T10:02:51Z H4ns: spacebat1: define yourself a d macro. 2015-07-14T10:02:58Z H4ns: spacebat1: and stop whining already :) 2015-07-14T10:03:02Z spacebat1: lol 2015-07-14T10:03:25Z spacebat1: I'm smiling, its just an annoyance - I like that lispworks doesn't whine about it 2015-07-14T10:03:56Z Shinmera: using set on an undefined variable has implementation dependant consequences. 2015-07-14T10:04:05Z Shinmera: Hence why you should not do it 2015-07-14T10:04:16Z Shinmera: Hence why SBCL bickers 2015-07-14T10:04:34Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:04:51Z spacebat1: fair enough 2015-07-14T10:05:17Z Shinmera: Once you have defvar'd your variable you can use set/q/f. 2015-07-14T10:05:47Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:06:40Z spacebat1: yup, and the repl angle is just an afterthought - I asked because I have a macro that redirects streams to strings, but I don't want to return the strings from the form - I figured it would be nice to allow the name of a symbol to be passed in 2015-07-14T10:06:53Z spacebat1: then I thought, what if the symbol hasn't been declared special? I should check for that 2015-07-14T10:07:34Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:07:34Z HDurer quit (Changing host) 2015-07-14T10:07:34Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:07:36Z dmitigr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T10:07:40Z spacebat1: Shinmera: your symbol-special-p should do that nicely 2015-07-14T10:07:56Z Shinmera: Make sure to #+sbcl (require :sb-cltl2) 2015-07-14T10:08:18Z spacebat1: I will thanks 2015-07-14T10:10:19Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T10:16:56Z rjmacready joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:17:41Z smith joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:19:47Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:19:48Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:22:43Z rjmacready quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-14T10:25:27Z smith quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-14T10:28:28Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:29:56Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:33:12Z smith joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:35:35Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T10:40:17Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-14T10:40:36Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:40:45Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:44:08Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:45:20Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T10:45:34Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-14T10:46:52Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:46:52Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T10:47:26Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:49:59Z ronh_b joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:51:31Z ronh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T10:52:46Z loke: spacebat1: Why not pass a continuation? 2015-07-14T10:53:32Z loke: spacebat1: like (defun blah (&key setter) ... (when setter (funcall setter result)), and call like (blah (lambda (s) (setq my-nonspecial-variable s))) 2015-07-14T10:54:43Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:55:36Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:56:07Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-14T10:57:44Z user4 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T11:00:24Z ivan4th quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T11:02:32Z user4 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-14T11:03:01Z spacebat1: loke yes that's a nice enough alternative 2015-07-14T11:03:28Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-14T11:03:35Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2015-07-14T11:03:50Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-14T11:04:08Z switchp0rt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T11:07:17Z switchp0rt joined #lisp 2015-07-14T11:07:27Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T11:26:08Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-07-14T11:26:29Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T11:26:59Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T11:28:52Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T11:33:00Z loz: http://ceramic.github.io/ 2015-07-14T11:33:06Z loz: wha do you think, #lisp? 2015-07-14T11:34:14Z z0d: loz: looks interesting. I'll try it 2015-07-14T11:35:52Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T11:41:21Z Vityok: loz: it is an interesting idea but imho web-apps lack UI frameworks that would efficiently mimick desktop UI 2015-07-14T11:41:44Z Vityok: Mozilla's XUL was a nice idea but it didn't take off except for Firefox 2015-07-14T11:44:20Z Vityok: meanwhile, mobile seems to be the next desktop; it is unfortunate that CL has a glaring lack of parsable instructions how to develop for Android or iOS 2015-07-14T11:44:35Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T11:46:45Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T11:47:21Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T11:47:27Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-14T11:47:40Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-14T11:48:35Z guthur` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T11:49:45Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T11:50:06Z switchp0rt quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-14T11:50:06Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T11:52:37Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T11:55:14Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T11:57:17Z schjetne: Vityok: there's Mocl, unfortunately it's proprietary. 2015-07-14T11:57:51Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-14T11:58:14Z ynchromeshs: Vityok: And LispWorks 2015-07-14T11:58:21Z ynchromeshs: http://www.lispworks.com/products/lw4mr.html 2015-07-14T11:58:38Z ynchromeshs: Also proprietary. 2015-07-14T11:59:17Z smith: How are both of these in practice? 2015-07-14T12:00:51Z spacebat1: I've not used mocl, but I've seem people both swear by it and also be scared off by the current set of bugs - I guess its a matter of whether your use case runs into a bug, and how easy it is for them to fix 2015-07-14T12:00:57Z switchp0rt joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:01:06Z Vityok: yes, there are few propreitarity solutions, there are ECL ports to Android 2015-07-14T12:01:15Z ynchromeshs: smith: I can't say - I was too busy on other projects to participate in the LW4MR alpha or beta, and now I'm targetting the web with ABCL+GAE, but I do have a LW7 license so I hope to try it eventually. 2015-07-14T12:01:36Z smith: I see, thanks for the info guys. 2015-07-14T12:01:54Z spacebat1: I just noticed that the lispworks ios runtime can't publish to the app store because its 32bit arm only, but the store requires 64bit apps 2015-07-14T12:02:31Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T12:02:56Z ynchromeshs: I'm sure they're working on that. :) 2015-07-14T12:03:06Z schjetne: I wonder if CCL could be a candidate for iOS because of its Objective C bridge 2015-07-14T12:06:11Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:06:20Z antoszka: ynchromeshs: > targetting the web with ABCL+GAE <- what's GAE in this context? 2015-07-14T12:07:16Z ynchromeshs: antoszka: Sorry, that's Google App Engine. 2015-07-14T12:07:26Z antoszka: ynchromeshs: Ah, thanks. 2015-07-14T12:08:33Z dmitigr: schjetne: it seems to me, that Objective C will be replaced by Swift soon :-) 2015-07-14T12:11:49Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:11:52Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:12:26Z spacebat1: there's a lot of legacy objectiveC to migrate, but I'm sure the wukix/mocl guys are working on the swift story 2015-07-14T12:14:42Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:14:52Z scymtym: does the first element of a type specifier that is a proper list have a name (like the first element in a special form is called "special operator")? 2015-07-14T12:15:11Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T12:15:40Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:20:10Z guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:20:17Z xificurC: is there a way to create a fast and small standalone CL executable? Last time I did something (maybe a year ago?) there was save-lisp-and-die in SBCL that dropped a 45MB hello world in my face 2015-07-14T12:20:18Z Shinmera: scymtym: compound type specifier name? 2015-07-14T12:20:33Z Shinmera: clhs 4.2.3 2015-07-14T12:20:33Z specbot: Type Specifiers: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_bc.htm 2015-07-14T12:21:22Z scymtym: Shinmera: seems right, thanks 2015-07-14T12:21:24Z guthur`: xificurC: What are you comparing it too? 2015-07-14T12:21:27Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-14T12:21:39Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:22:17Z guthur`: xificurC: JVM is about 60MB 2015-07-14T12:22:19Z xificurC: guthur`: I'm not comparing, but if you want a comparison Racket, OCaml, Haskell, I think all of these produce something around 200kB executables 2015-07-14T12:23:24Z ggole: They don't come with a compiler. 2015-07-14T12:23:35Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T12:23:44Z Shinmera: sbcl with core compression produces around 17mb exes nowadays 2015-07-14T12:24:08Z Vityok: xificurC: commercial CL implementations have tree-shackers that might generate deployable binaries of normal size 2015-07-14T12:24:12Z xificurC: my concern is that I need to deliver standalone, I can't ask people to install CL 2015-07-14T12:24:58Z fe[nl]ix: xificurC: just deliver the whole thing. what's the matter with 45 MB ? 2015-07-14T12:25:47Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: Floppy drives are gonna be a pain. 2015-07-14T12:26:29Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:26:31Z xificurC: fe[nl]ix: nothing in particular to be honest, was just thinking maybe there has been some improvement in this front 2015-07-14T12:26:35Z guthur`: ECL might produce smaller executables 2015-07-14T12:26:42Z ynchromeshs: Vityok: My delivered LispWorks executables are 14-17MB on Windows. 2015-07-14T12:26:44Z smith had a flashback to his youth installing Ultima 8 on floppy drives 2015-07-14T12:26:44Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-14T12:26:45Z Shinmera: xificurC: There has. As I said, activate core compression. 2015-07-14T12:27:02Z xificurC: Shinmera: any drawbacks to that? 2015-07-14T12:27:03Z fe[nl]ix: xificurC: if you're willing to pay for Lispworks 2015-07-14T12:27:40Z Shinmera: xificurC: You need to have sbcl compiled with it to use it. I think that's the default everywhere except windows. 2015-07-14T12:27:59Z smith: Huh, how about that http://xach.livejournal.com/295584.html 2015-07-14T12:28:04Z Shinmera: xificurC: Check for the sb-core-compression feature. 2015-07-14T12:28:08Z smith: SBCL supports core compression since 2011 2015-07-14T12:28:10Z smith: TIL 2015-07-14T12:28:19Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:28:32Z smith: As always, documentations and discoverability is the weakness of CL, it seems 2015-07-14T12:28:46Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T12:29:04Z Shinmera: smith: core compression is stated in the docs. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Function-sb_002dext_003asave_002dlisp_002dand_002ddie 2015-07-14T12:29:25Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:31:26Z smith: Shinmera: But still most people don't know about that, recent thread on Hacker News has plenty of people complaining about image size 2015-07-14T12:31:38Z smith: the thread about Ceramic, that is 2015-07-14T12:32:05Z Shinmera: :shrug: 2015-07-14T12:32:06Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾ 2015-07-14T12:32:16Z smith: :P 2015-07-14T12:33:19Z xificurC: thank you all 2015-07-14T12:34:06Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-14T12:35:20Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:36:46Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:37:12Z jdz: smith: people on HN complaining? is that an indication of anything? 2015-07-14T12:37:47Z nyef: jdz: That the site is still up. 2015-07-14T12:38:17Z jdz: nyef: hopefully that problem will solve itself in due time. 2015-07-14T12:39:16Z smith: jdz: Well, that might be an indication that I need to stop paying so much attentions to people having a misconception of Lisp in general :P 2015-07-14T12:39:58Z Kenjin quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-14T12:40:21Z jdz: smith: yes. the best approach is to do that by creating cool stuff 2015-07-14T12:40:27Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:40:32Z Kenjin quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-14T12:40:45Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:41:07Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:44:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T12:44:57Z Vityok: what it is the proper way to retreive data from a string that is allocated by a native function 2015-07-14T12:45:01Z Vityok: in CFFI 2015-07-14T12:45:05Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:45:07Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T12:45:30Z Vityok: basically the native function is convert(what*, char**buf) 2015-07-14T12:45:34Z guthur`: Vityok: you can specify a string return type on the function and CFFI should take care of it for you 2015-07-14T12:45:46Z guthur`: ah that 2015-07-14T12:46:20Z Vityok: guthur`: yep, but this function wants to get a pointer to a char pointer, allocate the string and assign it to the given char pointer 2015-07-14T12:46:38Z guthur`: with-foreign-string, maybe 2015-07-14T12:47:05Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:47:15Z guthur`: or just alloc some memory and pass a pointer 2015-07-14T12:47:15Z Vityok: yeah, but I've got doubts as to petty details 2015-07-14T12:47:33Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-14T12:47:34Z guthur`: I have not done much CFFI in a while so will defer to someone else of the docs 2015-07-14T12:47:37Z guthur`: of/or 2015-07-14T12:47:51Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-14T12:48:21Z Vityok: ok, thanks 2015-07-14T12:48:54Z pyon is now known as kawaii-imouto 2015-07-14T12:50:03Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-14T12:51:48Z smith: jdz: yeah, yeah, I got you. Less wasting time on a glorified forum & more hacking, right? 2015-07-14T12:52:08Z jdz: minion: chant 2015-07-14T12:52:08Z minion: MORE HACKING 2015-07-14T12:52:47Z smith: lol 2015-07-14T12:55:50Z jasom: Vityok: (with-foreign-object (str-ptr :string 1) (call-some-c-function str-ptr) (mem-ref str-ptr :string)) 2015-07-14T12:56:05Z jasom: Vityok: oh, that's slightly wrong 2015-07-14T12:56:23Z jasom: Assuming you need to free the allocated string, you'll want a (prog1 ) there 2015-07-14T12:56:24Z fe[nl]ix: it should be foreign-string-to-lisp 2015-07-14T12:56:39Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: doesn't mem-ref do that for you? 2015-07-14T12:56:58Z Vityok: jasom: it looks liek foreign-string-to-lisp is the way to go here 2015-07-14T12:57:08Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: maybe, with the recent translators 2015-07-14T12:57:12Z Vityok: but I've got doubts as to how to declare this thing 2015-07-14T12:57:14Z fe[nl]ix: but I've never tried that 2015-07-14T12:57:45Z Vityok: and I couldn't think of any known C functions with the same argument types to look at an example of an existing CFFI binding 2015-07-14T12:59:46Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: (foreign-string-to-lisp (mem-ref str-ptr :pointer)) will also get the value out (and mem-ref of :string does too on the version of cffi and sbcl I have installed) 2015-07-14T13:00:34Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:00:40Z fe[nl]ix: Vityok: use with-foreign-string to populate *what, allocate a :pointer for **buf then return (foreign-string-to-lisp (mem-ref buf :pointer)) 2015-07-14T13:01:37Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: probably don't need to populate it, if it takes a char ** it likely will allocate (or return from an internal buffer) for you. Obviously depends on the function 2015-07-14T13:02:29Z fe[nl]ix: you need to allocate the double pointer 2015-07-14T13:03:13Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: which (with-foreign-object (str-ptr :string 1) ...) does 2015-07-14T13:03:29Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:03:35Z fe[nl]ix: that's not what I'm referring to 2015-07-14T13:04:24Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-14T13:05:00Z fe[nl]ix: the signature given is convert(what*, char**buf), which I suppose is convert(char *what, char **buf) 2015-07-14T13:05:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T13:05:16Z jasom: ah 2015-07-14T13:05:18Z jasom: right 2015-07-14T13:05:18Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:06:36Z beach: It would be interesting to compile statistics about the percentage of all the utterings here that concern FFI. 2015-07-14T13:06:45Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:07:03Z kp666 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-14T13:08:08Z jasom: while people are talking about FFI, is it guaranteed that foreign-alloc will return a pointer acceptable for use by free()? 2015-07-14T13:08:09Z byroniczero quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:08:31Z lisper29 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:08:50Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:08:54Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:09:34Z p_l: jasom: noi 2015-07-14T13:09:35Z p_l: *no 2015-07-14T13:10:30Z jasom: so I have to bind to malloc if I want to pass a buffer that my libraries will free; that was my reading of the CFFI docs too, but I've seen code that depends on it (probably SBCL works that way and nobody tested it on something that didn't) 2015-07-14T13:10:34Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:11:26Z p_l: jasom: probably nobody tested it on something that wants to call free() on passed pointers, especially on windows... 2015-07-14T13:11:51Z p_l: generally, you aren't guaranteed your *malloc* will give something that other library can call free() on 2015-07-14T13:13:56Z jasom: p_l: it depends on if you have libc in a shared object 2015-07-14T13:14:08Z p_l: jasom: even then 2015-07-14T13:14:27Z p_l: jasom: your free() and some library's free() can be two different objects 2015-07-14T13:14:47Z p_l: (even easier, afaik, with versioned symbols insanity, or so I think) 2015-07-14T13:15:11Z byroniczero joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:15:31Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:15:55Z lisper29 is now known as Guest65389 2015-07-14T13:17:35Z jasom: p_l: by "shared" I meant "shared between you and the library" 2015-07-14T13:17:49Z jasom: glibc makes it very hard to not have the same version 2015-07-14T13:18:14Z jasom: anyway, good libraries will provide an allocator and freeing function for you 2015-07-14T13:18:15Z p_l: jasom: mostly because most code will be compiled with same runtime and compiler 2015-07-14T13:18:39Z jasom: p_l: IIRC if you statically link glibc, it will at initialization time look for a newer one and dynamically load it. 2015-07-14T13:19:06Z p_l: jasom: yup. The problem is that sometimes bad code on some side doesn't use them, or someone somewhere passes something somewhere they shouldn't, and sometimes someone screws up the linker 2015-07-14T13:19:20Z p_l: jasom: and consider the case where two different libc's are used ;D 2015-07-14T13:19:35Z jasom: right with two different libc's are use you are SoL 2015-07-14T13:19:52Z p_l: jasom: only if you assume what you malloc someone else can free... :D 2015-07-14T13:21:06Z jasom: p_l: plenty of libraries pass you ownership of pointers without a callback for freeing them 2015-07-14T13:21:34Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:21:36Z p_l uses brain bleach, hops into CL image to shield himself 2015-07-14T13:21:44Z jasom: haah 2015-07-14T13:22:18Z beach: Vityok: What are you using FFI for? 2015-07-14T13:23:40Z Vityok: beach: for this: https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-gdal 2015-07-14T13:23:53Z Vityok: the devel branch is the most current, but still outdated 2015-07-14T13:24:45Z Vityok: the function I've got problems with is: OGRErr OSRExportToProj4(OGRSpatialReferenceH, char **) 2015-07-14T13:25:04Z Vityok: so, the first parameter is an input, a reference to a data structure, I can deal with it 2015-07-14T13:25:17Z Vityok: but the second: char** is the problem 2015-07-14T13:25:45Z Vityok: the function will allocate a char array and assign it to the passed char* pointer 2015-07-14T13:25:58Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:27:42Z fe[nl]ix: beach: CFFI is weird to those used to C because it deals only with pointers and there's no reference operator, only dereference 2015-07-14T13:27:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:28:22Z beach: I see. 2015-07-14T13:28:48Z p_l: it removes the thin veener from memory operations 2015-07-14T13:29:46Z fe[nl]ix: so instead of int n; int *np = &n; you have only int *n = foreign_alloc(sizeof(int)) 2015-07-14T13:30:11Z fe[nl]ix: actually, void *n 2015-07-14T13:30:54Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:31:59Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:32:19Z jdz: Vityok: you might be able to figure out something out of https://bitbucket.org/jdzerins/evp 2015-07-14T13:32:31Z jdz: i just made it public, i hope it's accessible 2015-07-14T13:32:59Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:33:43Z flip214: what's the reverse side of &allow-other-keys? 2015-07-14T13:34:11Z Xach: flip214: syek-rehto-wolla& 2015-07-14T13:34:14Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:34:15Z beach: flip214: "reverse side"? 2015-07-14T13:34:55Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:35:03Z Vityok: jdz: could you please name a particular function/place in the sources where to look? 2015-07-14T13:35:08Z flip214: no, the thing that can be passed in an argument list to make the called function *not* puke on undefined keys 2015-07-14T13:35:22Z beach: :allow-other-keys t 2015-07-14T13:35:26Z flip214: :allow-other-keys 2015-07-14T13:35:36Z flip214: ah yes, just found it. thanks, beach! 2015-07-14T13:35:48Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:36:22Z jdz: Vityok: well, there are instances in ffi.lisp of (:pointer (:pointer :unsigned-char)) 2015-07-14T13:36:32Z Vityok: jdz: thanks! 2015-07-14T13:36:37Z jdz: Vityok: look up where those are used in evp.lisp 2015-07-14T13:37:05Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:37:42Z loz: how is ,@ called? 2015-07-14T13:38:05Z beach: loz: unquote splicing. 2015-07-14T13:40:27Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:43:09Z jdz: Vityok: actually https://bitbucket.org/jdzerins/evp/src/f454684f057a02bde546ca0254c1c012ad7eae49/evp.lisp?at=master#cl-109 2015-07-14T13:43:26Z jdz: Vityok: the code did work at some point, so that's probably how it works 2015-07-14T13:43:46Z Vityok: jdz: thanks! 2015-07-14T13:44:44Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-14T13:45:38Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:45:46Z jdz: Vityok: actually look at the function that starts on line 174 (the other one with that comment is commented out) 2015-07-14T13:46:36Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:46:47Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:47:48Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:48:00Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:48:23Z beach: nyef: What's the progress on NQ-CLIM? 2015-07-14T13:49:09Z nyef: It's looking more and more like the next step is to sort out the input handling. 2015-07-14T13:49:50Z beach: There is some simple stuff in there, like defining the CLIM event classes and mapping X11 event types to them. 2015-07-14T13:50:04Z nyef: Yes, that's probably where I'm going to start. 2015-07-14T13:51:11Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:51:25Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:54:32Z loz: is commonqt available from quicklisp? 2015-07-14T13:54:43Z Xach: loz: yes 2015-07-14T13:55:14Z loz: Xach (ql:quickload "commonqt") -> System "commonqt" not found 2015-07-14T13:55:15Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:55:29Z Xach: loz: that is not the name of the system. it's just "qt" 2015-07-14T13:55:57Z loz: Xach I see now, thanks) 2015-07-14T13:56:55Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-07-14T13:58:00Z loz: how would one know name of the system? 2015-07-14T13:58:17Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:58:36Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T13:59:20Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:00:21Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:01:31Z epitron quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-14T14:02:05Z Xach: loz: (ql:system-apropos "commonqt") can help a little 2015-07-14T14:02:37Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:04:33Z epitron joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:07:03Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: are you entirely against shipping libraries with patches in QL ? 2015-07-14T14:07:34Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: yes, but I'm not against adopting libraries (when wearing my sharplisper hat). 2015-07-14T14:07:46Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: I don't want the situation where there is an active maintainer working on code that is not the same that is in quicklisp. 2015-07-14T14:08:15Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: I am open to persuasion but it would have to be very persuasive 2015-07-14T14:08:28Z fe[nl]ix: maybe lichtblau would agree to move cxml under sharplispers 2015-07-14T14:08:43Z Xach: Did you get a response from lichtblau? 2015-07-14T14:09:02Z fe[nl]ix: not yet, I think he's very busy at work 2015-07-14T14:09:34Z fe[nl]ix: I have the two patches for cxml.asd and closure-common.asd if you're interested 2015-07-14T14:09:39Z beach: loz: You need to learn to acknowledge that you understood, or at least read, what people were trying to tell you. 2015-07-14T14:10:11Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: in conjunction with the QL patch I sent you, those fix the compilation output of cxml 2015-07-14T14:10:18Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T14:10:20Z beach is not really expecting any acknowledgment on that remark, of course. 2015-07-14T14:10:36Z loz: beach: what do you mean? 2015-07-14T14:10:40Z Xach: I may switch the default mode of quicklisp to verbose in the future. 2015-07-14T14:11:02Z Xach: I don't see a way to achieve what I really want, which is "quiet quicklisp library loading, verbose local code loading" 2015-07-14T14:11:09Z beach: loz: I told you "unquote splicing". Answer: <silence>. Xach told you about system-aprorpos. Answer: <silence>. 2015-07-14T14:11:31Z beach: loz: So we don't know whether what we told you was even received. 2015-07-14T14:12:06Z beach: loz: A simple "got it", "ok", or "thanks" would do fine. 2015-07-14T14:12:35Z loz: beach: ye, sorry 2015-07-14T14:13:11Z loz: I just was thinking this can be too much noise from me, cause I'm often asking questions) 2015-07-14T14:13:55Z beach: There is no need to make a long phrase. A simple "ok" will do. 2015-07-14T14:14:01Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:15:02Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: you can't quiet things without cooperation from authors 2015-07-14T14:15:31Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: for most things it's quiet enough. slime, cxml, and cffi are big exceptions. 2015-07-14T14:15:32Z fe[nl]ix: but you can tell them that if they need to print stuff from ASDF methods, output only to *DEBUG-IO* 2015-07-14T14:15:41Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:15:45Z fe[nl]ix: pretty slim contract 2015-07-14T14:15:52Z emaczen: What is the difference between , and eval? 2015-07-14T14:16:48Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-14T14:16:58Z beach: emaczen: , is a reader macro. EVAL is a function. 2015-07-14T14:16:59Z loz: beach: ok) 2015-07-14T14:18:03Z beach: emaczen: Furthermore, the reader macro doesn't call EVAL. 2015-07-14T14:18:10Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:18:25Z emaczen: beach: How can I see what , expands into? 2015-07-14T14:18:48Z beach: (car (read-from-string "`(,a)")) 2015-07-14T14:20:00Z beach: Actually, that gives the ` 2015-07-14T14:20:11Z beach: emaczen: Are you using SBCL? 2015-07-14T14:20:24Z emaczen: beach: Aren't , and eval similar? Would you expect to be able to simulate one with the other in most circumstances? 2015-07-14T14:20:31Z beach: (type-of (caadr (read-from-string "`(,a)"))) 2015-07-14T14:20:37Z emaczen: Yes, I got SB-Quasiquote ad the evaluation of that 2015-07-14T14:20:54Z beach: emaczen: , doesn't have anything to do with EVAL. 2015-07-14T14:20:56Z emaczen: That gives me SB-IMPL::Comma 2015-07-14T14:21:08Z beach: Yes, exactly. I think it is a struct or something. 2015-07-14T14:21:34Z warweasle: Hello,I created some emacs functions for slime which append the last result or expression to a file. If anyone wants them I can post them for you. 2015-07-14T14:22:07Z beach: emaczen: Something like `(a ,b) eventually expands to something like (list 'a b) 2015-07-14T14:22:57Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T14:23:10Z beach: emaczen: So basically anything preceded by , does *not* get quoted, and everything else *does* get quoted. No EVAL involved. 2015-07-14T14:23:21Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:23:31Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:24:06Z emaczen: beach: Got it. 2015-07-14T14:25:12Z beach: emaczen: Here is another way to get an idea of what is going on. Do (read-from-string "`(,a)") in the SLIME repl, and then use the inspector on the (first) value. 2015-07-14T14:26:51Z beach: emaczen: You will then see that ,A is a "STRUCTURE-OBJECT of type SB-IMPL::COMMA" and you will see that it contains two slots EXPR which is A and KIND which is 0. 2015-07-14T14:27:11Z beach: emaczen: Not that I know what KIND means here. It is SBCL specific. 2015-07-14T14:28:03Z emaczen: How do I go "back" with slime inspector? 2015-07-14T14:28:11Z beach: l 2015-07-14T14:28:20Z beach: Stands for "last". 2015-07-14T14:28:57Z beach: emaczen: Given your nick, you should know that, because it is the same in many parts of Emacs. 2015-07-14T14:28:58Z emaczen: Thanks 2015-07-14T14:29:02Z beach: Anytime. 2015-07-14T14:29:24Z emaczen: haha yeah, I was trying "u" and "B" 2015-07-14T14:29:49Z beach: In Emacs INFO, I think `l' is used as well 2015-07-14T14:30:08Z beach: And in many other cases that I can't think of right now. 2015-07-14T14:30:12Z emaczen: I think you actually told me about 'l' before the last time I asked about the slime inspector... I just don't use it enough yet... 2015-07-14T14:30:23Z mea-culpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T14:30:24Z beach: Oh, that could be. 2015-07-14T14:31:16Z beach: I use it a lot. It is quite rudimentary, but it does the job most of the time. 2015-07-14T14:34:07Z emaczen: So the use of 'eval' is discouraged right? 2015-07-14T14:34:38Z H4ns: emaczen: yes. it is rarely the right tool. 2015-07-14T14:34:46Z beach: You use it when you need it. It is there for that purpose. But the simplified newbie advice is "if you are using it, you are doing something wrong". 2015-07-14T14:35:45Z emaczen: Okay, I'll come up with another solution 2015-07-14T14:35:47Z Guest65389 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-14T14:36:25Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:39:16Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:39:35Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:41:47Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-14T14:43:16Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:45:42Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:46:02Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-14T14:46:30Z drmeister: What would you do to make this run as fast as possible in SBCL? 2015-07-14T14:47:12Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T14:47:27Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151578 2015-07-14T14:48:35Z Xach: make pkhuong curious about it 2015-07-14T14:50:26Z bin7me quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T14:50:51Z lvspais joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:51:01Z jdz: Xach: haha, best tip ever 2015-07-14T14:51:07Z Xach: sorry :( 2015-07-14T14:51:13Z jdz: no, i mean it 2015-07-14T14:51:13Z Xach: it is not all that practical 2015-07-14T14:51:17Z beach: drmeister: Start by cranking up OPTIMIZE. 2015-07-14T14:51:36Z beach: drmeister: Then declare everything FIXNUM (provided it's true, of course). 2015-07-14T14:51:45Z drmeister: I recently ran this in clasp and it was only 4x slower than C - I'm trying to reproduce that now. 2015-07-14T14:52:48Z nyef: Transform to use tail-recursion and no SETs, even if that means introducing a tail-recursive LABELS function? 2015-07-14T14:53:06Z nyef: That might not work out too well, not sure. 2015-07-14T14:53:22Z smith: beach: will compiling it to an image binary file help? 2015-07-14T14:53:48Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:54:00Z beach: smith: I don't think so. But I am not sure. 2015-07-14T14:55:34Z drmeister: I got LLVM inlining to work (with a lot of contortions) and I've been trying to remove the contortions to get back to the point where I can try again. 2015-07-14T14:55:44Z beach: drmeister: Oh, and in order to declare the AUX variables fixnum, you need to initialize them to 0. 2015-07-14T14:55:59Z beach: drmeister: What would be some good arguments to pass? 2015-07-14T14:56:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-14T14:59:01Z beach: nyef: There is no recursion in the function as it is. 2015-07-14T14:59:36Z drmeister: So this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/151578#1 2015-07-14T15:00:27Z beach: Except for the syntax error in declare, yes. 2015-07-14T15:00:40Z beach: (type fixnum reps ...) 2015-07-14T15:00:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-14T15:01:00Z sheilong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T15:01:08Z beach: drmeister: What arguments have you used to test it? 2015-07-14T15:01:28Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:01:30Z drmeister: (fibn 10000000 78) 2015-07-14T15:01:37Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:02:02Z drmeister: Calculate the 78th element of the fibn sequence 10 million times. 2015-07-14T15:02:24Z drmeister: Clasp requires 11 seconds without llvm inlining. 2015-07-14T15:02:33Z beach: 0.87s on my machine. 2015-07-14T15:03:59Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:04:25Z beach: Better run it yourself to get consistent comparisons. 2015-07-14T15:04:50Z kristof: beach: Was that running SBCL or Clasp? 2015-07-14T15:04:55Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:04:56Z beach: SBCL. 2015-07-14T15:05:00Z beach: I don't have Claps intalled. 2015-07-14T15:05:02Z beach: installed 2015-07-14T15:05:29Z beach: er, Clasp. 2015-07-14T15:05:34Z beach: Can't type today. Sorry. 2015-07-14T15:06:14Z kristof: Geez, I need to open my copy of Lisp in Small Pieces, again. I can't seem to define recursive functions. The free variable lookup in the recursive call is failing. 2015-07-14T15:06:47Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T15:06:51Z antoszka: beach: You must have one hell of a CPU. Takes 5.2 seconds on my sbcl. 2015-07-14T15:07:02Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:07:07Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:07:49Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:08:06Z beach: antoszka: I don't think so. 2015-07-14T15:08:34Z beach: Mine is an ordinary PC desktop. Several years old, too. 2015-07-14T15:08:54Z antoszka: Wonder why so different then. 2015-07-14T15:09:14Z dmitigr: antoszka: OS? 2015-07-14T15:09:17Z beach: Let's see what others have to say. 2015-07-14T15:09:28Z beach: I could have made a mistake. 2015-07-14T15:11:09Z beach: antoszka: Did you do the version with all the declarations in it? 2015-07-14T15:11:50Z pjb: xificurC: sure. Assume you want to replace a substring. You could write (defun replace-substring (string replacement start) (check-type string string) (check-type replacement string) (check-type start (integer 0)) (loop :for i :from start :for ch :across replacement :do (setf (char string i) ch)) string) 2015-07-14T15:11:51Z guthur` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T15:12:21Z Bike: two seconds on my netbook, so 0.87s on an acctual computer makes sense 2015-07-14T15:12:29Z pjb: xificurC: but you could realize that a string is a vector, so there's no point in restricting this algorithm to strings, you could allow vectors, and also, vectors are sequences, so you could also generalize it to sequences. 2015-07-14T15:12:54Z dmitigr: beach: are you on Intel or AMD? 2015-07-14T15:13:09Z beach: dmitigr: I don't even know. Hold on... 2015-07-14T15:13:32Z beach: Intel Core 2015-07-14T15:13:46Z pjb: xificurC: so you could write instead: (defun replace-subsequence (sequence replacement start) (check-type sequence sequence) (check-type replacement sequence) (check-type start (integer 0)) (setf (subseq sequence start (+ start (length replacement))) replacement) sequence). 2015-07-14T15:14:06Z lvspais quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T15:14:27Z dmitigr: beach: and motherboard? 2015-07-14T15:14:28Z drmeister: Here's what I get for a version written in C 2015-07-14T15:14:31Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/oVu7pbVh/ 2015-07-14T15:14:53Z beach: dmitigr: I don't know and I don't know how to find out. 2015-07-14T15:15:06Z Bike: and .7s on the actual computer, yepyep. 2015-07-14T15:15:21Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/CuvZdJY7/ 2015-07-14T15:15:22Z beach: Sounds very plausible. 2015-07-14T15:15:26Z pjb: xificurC: so now, in addition to (replace-subsequence "Hello World" "B-Bye" 0), you can also write (replace-subsequence "Hello World" #(#\G #\e #\o #\r #\g) 6) or (replace-subsequence (vector 0 0 0 0 0 0) '(1 2 3) 2) 2015-07-14T15:16:35Z beach: drmeister: What do *you* get with SBCL? 2015-07-14T15:16:49Z drmeister: I'm trying to get there. 2015-07-14T15:16:55Z Bike: maybe antoszka just deleted the declare fixnum? that reeeeeally slows things down 2015-07-14T15:16:57Z drmeister: I've got LLVM inlining crashing all around me. 2015-07-14T15:17:05Z drmeister: Multitasking 2015-07-14T15:17:36Z kristof mumbles something about a house of cards 2015-07-14T15:17:45Z antoszka: beach: no, the very plain version, I can certainly try to re-run with all declarations. 2015-07-14T15:17:53Z antoszka: dmitigr: Linux, 64bit. 2015-07-14T15:17:58Z beach: antoszka: That explains the difference. 2015-07-14T15:18:07Z Bike: oh. well, yeah. 2015-07-14T15:19:05Z beach: dmitigr: But as you can see, mine is not particularly fast compared to that of Bike for instance. 2015-07-14T15:21:25Z drmeister: beach: In sbcl it takes 0.56 seconds - our machines have similar capabilities. 2015-07-14T15:21:37Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:22:35Z drmeister: I appear to be uncovering some shortcomings in LLVM inlining. I may be the first person to attempt to inline code generated by a C++ compiler into code generated by another compiler. 2015-07-14T15:23:19Z dmitigr: beach: shrug. 2015-07-14T15:23:24Z Bike: ...llvm ir, right? 2015-07-14T15:25:15Z jack-zhang quit (Quit: 离开) 2015-07-14T15:30:06Z drmeister: Yes, LLVM-IR. 2015-07-14T15:31:29Z tajjada joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:31:53Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:33:09Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T15:34:49Z pjb: aeth: design pattern ≡ macros. cf. http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Object-Oriented-Programming 2015-07-14T15:37:36Z dmitigr: pjb: not really, since "design pattern" term are better applicable to languages without macros :-) 2015-07-14T15:38:35Z pjb: The point is that in lisp you don't need GoF, because you have macros, and you are doing design patterns without knowing it, like Jourdain. 2015-07-14T15:38:48Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-14T15:39:04Z pjb: dmitigr: on the other hand, once you write code in "pattern", you should introdce a macro to reify the design pattern. 2015-07-14T15:39:26Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-14T15:39:34Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-14T15:39:35Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T15:39:39Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T15:39:50Z pjb: dmitigr: and also, you should realize that some design patterns are not "localized", they may involve several different classes and different parts seemingly unrelated in the code. But you can still design macros to such effects! 2015-07-14T15:39:52Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:39:54Z |3b| introduces a macro to implement the "write patterns as a macro" pattern 2015-07-14T15:40:17Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:40:46Z dmitigr: pjb: yes, exactly 2015-07-14T15:40:50Z pjb: macros making macros patten. 2015-07-14T15:40:53Z pjb: It's covered. 2015-07-14T15:42:35Z pjb: Now, you could have informal design patterns that would cover hitting in the face of a coworker, but without going to those extremes, explaining people that they can have their beloved design patterns and make the CL compiler generate them automatically for them by formlizing them as lisp macro, should be an argument to have them try to switch to Common Lisp! 2015-07-14T15:42:41Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-14T15:42:45Z dmitigr: |3b|: there is some article related what you wrote - http://arxiv.org/pdf/cs/0409016v1.pdf 2015-07-14T15:42:54Z pjb: So try to polish the argument instead. 2015-07-14T15:44:00Z dmitigr: |3b|: but it quite old :) 2015-07-14T15:47:48Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:48:26Z dmitigr: pjb: yeah, attempt to thinking at higher level of absraction is one of the reason I start learning Lisp. 2015-07-14T15:48:42Z pjb: Exactly. 2015-07-14T15:48:54Z Ven quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-14T15:50:01Z kristof: I don't disbelieve in design patterns. I do, however, reject inescapable boilerplate. 2015-07-14T15:50:24Z kristof: Anyone who has ever used a first-class function knows what the strategy pattern is. They just think very little of it. 2015-07-14T15:50:38Z kristof: "Of course I'd 'pass around' a strategy." 2015-07-14T15:50:45Z pjb: dmitigr: I don't understand OOP having problems with modularization. They should just do the same thing they do at the class level, on the package level and on the module level and on the component level, and on the subsystem level, and on the system level. In the OOP/OOD books I read in my time (Rumbaugh, Booch, etc) (just before UML), there were chapters about that; and in the UML specifically there are notations for those level of 2015-07-14T15:50:45Z pjb: abstraction. 2015-07-14T15:51:23Z pjb: OOP programmers. 2015-07-14T15:52:28Z pjb: schjetne: so your desk is more like a cyclic a-directed graph? 2015-07-14T15:53:42Z dmitigr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T15:54:41Z kristof is now known as oyster 2015-07-14T15:54:45Z oyster is now known as seahorse 2015-07-14T15:54:57Z tajjada quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T15:54:59Z seahorse is now known as kristof 2015-07-14T15:55:54Z tajjada joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:55:56Z pjb: spacebat1: this warning on setq, it's really to save your hours or days of debugging, once you fall on the unintended implementation dependant consequences. 2015-07-14T15:56:25Z pjb: spacebat1: also, always names your special variables (defvar/defparameter) with *earmuffs*. 2015-07-14T15:57:55Z pjb: spacebat1: I find too many bugs in mocl to start developping with it. I'd put my effort on ecl instead. 2015-07-14T15:58:16Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-14T15:58:52Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:00:44Z kristof is now known as oyster 2015-07-14T16:04:15Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T16:04:31Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T16:04:55Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:06:58Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:07:07Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-14T16:08:25Z oyster is now known as kristof 2015-07-14T16:09:15Z Jaskologist_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-14T16:09:35Z jack-zhang quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T16:10:22Z tajjada quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-14T16:11:50Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T16:12:22Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-14T16:12:30Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-14T16:12:35Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-14T16:20:30Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-14T16:22:25Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:23:30Z eylusion_p_n quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T16:24:09Z nml quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T16:24:12Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T16:24:32Z foom joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:24:58Z salv0 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:27:31Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:27:36Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-14T16:29:07Z emaczen: Is there a way to get the index of the maximal element in a sequence using loop? 2015-07-14T16:29:50Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T16:29:51Z emaczen: A simple way... it would just be convenient, otherwise I would just write it myself. 2015-07-14T16:30:07Z Bike: you pretty much have to write it yourself, unfortunately. 2015-07-14T16:30:21Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:30:36Z Bike: unless you're okay with traversing the list twice i guess. 2015-07-14T16:30:49Z emaczen: Bike: It would be nice if you could write (loop for ele in lst by idx maximize ele) 2015-07-14T16:31:09Z oGMo: the simple way would be, sort and check, but less efficient than iterating it 2015-07-14T16:31:10Z Bike: you can't. i think you can do that with the iterate library. 2015-07-14T16:31:35Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T16:32:13Z oGMo: otoh this is such a trivial loop to write i'm not even sure why it's a question .. check alexandria, then write your own 2-liner 2015-07-14T16:32:41Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:34:11Z sebbee joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:34:17Z sebbee: is lisp fast 2015-07-14T16:34:24Z Xach: sebbee: yes 2015-07-14T16:34:26Z sebbee: good 2015-07-14T16:35:02Z sebbee: so what is scheme? it looks like lisp 2015-07-14T16:35:37Z jasom: sebbee: It is a language with similar syntax to lisp, and somewhat of a shared history 2015-07-14T16:37:23Z antoszka: And many superficial similarities. 2015-07-14T16:37:35Z sebbee: so it is lisp renamed with enhanced syntax 2015-07-14T16:37:39Z antoszka: No. 2015-07-14T16:38:00Z sebbee: im not ignorant here, i'm just trying to get what lisp and scheme is 2015-07-14T16:38:19Z sebbee: my professor said i should avoid it at all cost 2015-07-14T16:38:45Z antoszka: The syntax is actually simplified in comparison to Common Lisp. It's just a different language. Fine for what it was devised for, there's absolutely no reason to avoid it. 2015-07-14T16:38:56Z antoszka: But since you're here we'll recommend getting to know Common Lisp. 2015-07-14T16:39:25Z Xach: Shinmera: I'm having a weird problem building qtools. I get an error on a full build of every project that I can't reproduce when building just qtools. 2015-07-14T16:39:40Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-14/failure-report/qtools.html#qtools has the log 2015-07-14T16:40:29Z jasom: sebbee: To a certain extent it's like Java and C++ -- to someone who knows neither language, they look an awful lot alike. 2015-07-14T16:42:05Z sebbee: thats a great comparison 2015-07-14T16:43:32Z sebbee: im more interested in web technologies 2015-07-14T16:46:06Z jasom: sebbee: the web is a set of protocols that you can interact with in any number of languages. It's popular enough that you'll find web frameworks in whatever language you learn, including lisp. 2015-07-14T16:46:18Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:47:20Z eudoxia: you don't have to look far though! http://eudoxia.me/lucerne/ 2015-07-14T16:47:27Z eudoxia: shameless plug ^ 2015-07-14T16:47:38Z sebbee: buttplugged 2015-07-14T16:47:39Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-14T16:49:40Z jasom: I wrote my first CGI program in C. I don't recommend that path. 2015-07-14T16:50:46Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:52:08Z eudoxia: i wrote my first web app in allegroserve along the lines of the PCL example 2015-07-14T16:52:11Z eudoxia: don't recommend that either 2015-07-14T16:52:39Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:56:31Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:56:48Z smith: eudoxia: thanks for Ceramic, mate. 2015-07-14T16:56:48Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:56:51Z smith: Looks lovely. 2015-07-14T16:57:06Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-07-14T16:57:47Z eudoxia: smith: glad you like it :D 2015-07-14T16:58:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-14T16:58:37Z pjb: sebbee: either you have an excellent professor doing some reverse psychology on you, or you have a very bad teacher. 2015-07-14T16:59:03Z pjb: sebbee: The most important thing you can make in your programmer life, is to learn lisp. 2015-07-14T17:00:35Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T17:01:07Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:02:12Z pjb: sebbee: you can write programs that can be run on both Common Lisp and scheme, (cf. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/ ) but this doesn't mean much given that you can also write programs that can be run on both C, sh, csh and fortran, for example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151585 2015-07-14T17:02:25Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:03:24Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:09:24Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:12:56Z kristof: In a scheme like syntax: (define sum (lambda (n) (if (< n 1) 0 (+ n (sum (- n 1)))))) 2015-07-14T17:13:09Z kristof: My interpreter craps its stack at about (sum 500) 2015-07-14T17:13:17Z pjb: This is not tail call. 2015-07-14T17:13:33Z kristof: pjb: It woudn't matter, as I don't reuse stack frames yet. 2015-07-14T17:13:46Z pjb: Yes, you do: you have a recursive call to sum. 2015-07-14T17:14:06Z pjb: I mean, you _use_ stack frames. 2015-07-14T17:14:31Z kristof: pjb: Right, but there wouldn't be any way for me to optimize a tail-call because my silly toy interpreter just recurses dumbly. 2015-07-14T17:14:42Z pjb: kristof: as an implemented, don't be surprised, anything between 500 and 20000 is what you get in general. 2015-07-14T17:14:48Z pjb: s/ted/ter/ 2015-07-14T17:14:52Z oGMo: kristof: fix it? 2015-07-14T17:15:00Z kristof: oGMo: I only just put my pants on! 2015-07-14T17:15:15Z kristof: I would rather restructure the code as is. 2015-07-14T17:15:18Z pjb: You can fix it by not using the host stack to implement your interpreter call stack. 2015-07-14T17:15:58Z kristof: pjb: Surely there is some tradeoff in execution speed by heap allocating frames. 2015-07-14T17:16:11Z pjb: Not really. 2015-07-14T17:16:19Z kristof: Good enough for me :) 2015-07-14T17:16:21Z pjb: And also, you must consider call/cc in scheme. 2015-07-14T17:16:51Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:16:55Z oGMo: err, heap allocating frames _is_ slower, but probably not for what you're doing 2015-07-14T17:16:58Z ggole: Heap stack frames are absolutely slower 2015-07-14T17:17:07Z pjb: If you generate native code, having a stack stored in the heap or using the "processor" stack should be as fast: the same push and pop instructions are used. 2015-07-14T17:17:33Z pjb: And when you have threads anyways, this is what you have, heap allocated stacks. 2015-07-14T17:17:40Z ggole: You can't use call/ret pairs with heap allocated frames 2015-07-14T17:17:43Z oGMo: though at this point you should likely switch to CPS and manage frames separately as necessary, but 2015-07-14T17:17:47Z kristof: pjb: I'm slowly making my way through Norvig's lispy implementation for educational purposes. Unfortunately, I'm using Rust, so I have to jump through a lot of hoops when it comes to memory safety. 2015-07-14T17:18:42Z oGMo: not to mention using the heap for frames is probably hell on the cache 2015-07-14T17:19:01Z kristof: oGMo: Not if I use an arena 2015-07-14T17:19:10Z pjb: not to mention that call/cc means the stack is not a stack anymore, but a DAG. 2015-07-14T17:19:19Z pjb: or a tree more specifically. 2015-07-14T17:19:22Z oGMo: call/cc is not CPS 2015-07-14T17:19:57Z sebbee: pjb: thanks for your honest words. my professor is a jedi master 2015-07-14T17:19:59Z kristof: pjb: Do you have a personal preference when it comes to call/cc? Whenever I see delimited or undelimited continuations I just think "that could have been structured a lot more clearly without continuations." 2015-07-14T17:20:05Z sebbee: not sure if hes yoda or mace windu, tho 2015-07-14T17:20:15Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T17:20:43Z oGMo: kristof: if you haven't looked into continuation passing style, you should 2015-07-14T17:20:54Z pjb: kristof: call/cc is a low level construct. But undelimited continuations allows to implement easily coroutines, multi-threading and other parallel or pseudo-parallel control structures. 2015-07-14T17:20:55Z oGMo: then call/cc is more or less a side effect you can implement if you want 2015-07-14T17:21:12Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:21:31Z kristof: oGMo: I have, it's usually clearer to pass thunks directly 2015-07-14T17:22:03Z kristof: pjb: Oh, I think I understand. So one typically does not use call/cc, one builds on top of it and uses that abstraction 2015-07-14T17:22:25Z pjb: yes. 2015-07-14T17:22:45Z pjb: Just like eg. in CL you wouldn't use tagbody/go directly, but you'd use macros that'd expand to such a form. 2015-07-14T17:23:16Z sebbee: pjb: any textbook suggestions for lisp or a website where i can go wild 2015-07-14T17:23:34Z sebbee: library next door has The Little Schemer 2015-07-14T17:23:35Z pjb: http://cliki.net gives all the pointers you'd want. 2015-07-14T17:23:39Z pjb: A good book. 2015-07-14T17:24:00Z kristof: sebbee: For Common Lisp, you'll want to just jump straight into Practical Common Lisp 2015-07-14T17:24:11Z pjb: and if you prefer scheme (#lisp is for Common Lisp, #scheme for scheme, and ##lisp for lisp in general), then http://www.schemers.org 2015-07-14T17:24:15Z jasom: minion: tell sebbee about minion 2015-07-14T17:24:15Z minion: minion: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/minion 2015-07-14T17:24:22Z jasom: minion: tell sebbee about gentle 2015-07-14T17:24:22Z minion: sebbee: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-07-14T17:24:26Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-14T17:24:34Z kristof: sebbee: For nifty macro tricks, you'll want to read On Lisp and Let Over Lambda 2015-07-14T17:24:38Z eazarlang_001 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:24:48Z pjb: and also: Casting Spels in Lisp Conrad Barski, M.D. http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 2015-07-14T17:24:55Z sebbee: this one? http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2015-07-14T17:24:58Z kristof: sebbee: Finally, for a reference, you'll want to look at the Hyperspec on occasion, or ask someone here 2015-07-14T17:24:59Z pjb: yes 2015-07-14T17:26:07Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-14T17:28:08Z sebbee: thanks for all the links 2015-07-14T17:28:12Z sebbee: I will report back 2015-07-14T17:28:39Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:28:41Z sebbee: i read a nice quote about lisp: its the only language which can solve problems which you dont know the answer to yet 2015-07-14T17:28:43Z sebbee: thats why im here basically :) 2015-07-14T17:29:05Z waaron joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:29:27Z pjb: sebbee: check this for an example of wishful programming: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/oGmha6PbAD4/kmpG51wjJ6gJ 2015-07-14T17:34:11Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T17:35:50Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:37:18Z schjetne is trying to wrap his head around MOP 2015-07-14T17:38:09Z schjetne: I managed to create a metaclass that lets me instantiate objects from JSON, now I just need to somehow implicitly define methods that turn the objects back into JSON 2015-07-14T17:39:17Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-14T17:39:40Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:40:02Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:40:51Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:40:56Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:43:11Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T17:45:18Z sebbee: got slime with emacs hooked up :) 2015-07-14T17:46:54Z pjb: schjetne: why a metaclass? Wouldn't a simple function (possibly using the MOP) be enough? 2015-07-14T17:46:55Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-07-14T17:48:36Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:49:45Z schjetne: pjb: I specify json data types and key names in the slots 2015-07-14T17:50:01Z schjetne: the slot definitions, that is 2015-07-14T17:50:02Z pjb: I see. Ok. 2015-07-14T17:50:10Z schjetne: To ensure a perfect round-trip 2015-07-14T17:50:20Z pjb: I would just have used the slot-name. 2015-07-14T17:50:48Z pjb: And indeed, you'd need the type specified or have to use a default mapping. 2015-07-14T17:51:49Z schjetne: I want the name specified explicitly, for when I need to interoperate with other systems with obnoxious unlispy naming conventions 2015-07-14T17:51:56Z pjb: yes. 2015-07-14T17:52:08Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T17:52:14Z pjb: this is an acceptable requirement :-) 2015-07-14T17:52:35Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:52:37Z schjetne: What I need to do now is make sure each class with my metaclass gets a yason:encode-slots method that turns it all back into JSON 2015-07-14T17:55:01Z schjetne: I wish there were a good MOP cookbook somewhere 2015-07-14T17:57:49Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T17:58:29Z francogrex: do you think it's possible to extract the corman lisp assembler and make it into a separate portable lib? cormanlisp/Sys/assembler.lisp ? 2015-07-14T17:58:29Z francogrex: 2015-07-14T17:58:58Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:59:05Z pjb: theorically, yes. 2015-07-14T17:59:34Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-14T17:59:34Z pjb: In practice, why? Any native CL implementation already has a x86/x86_64 backend. 2015-07-14T17:59:47Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T17:59:55Z digiorgi: visit ceramic.github.io 2015-07-14T18:01:53Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T18:02:19Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:03:12Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:03:32Z ggole quit 2015-07-14T18:03:53Z schjetne: I'm really not sure how to approach my problem, I suppose I could define a mixin class that has the method, but that doesn't seem terribly elegant. I'd imagine I could also compile a separate method when the class is defined. I have seen very little MOP code, so I have no idea what would be idiomatic. 2015-07-14T18:06:13Z xificurC_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:07:40Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:07:44Z francogrex: pjb: corman's was quite good 2015-07-14T18:08:13Z Bike: schjetne: if classes that use your metaclass also have to subclass some class (likehow standard-classes subclass standard-object) you could just define a method for encode-slots on that superclass. 2015-07-14T18:08:14Z pjb: Isn't it limited to 32-bit? 2015-07-14T18:08:35Z pjb: francogrex: ^ 2015-07-14T18:08:45Z francogrex: yes I think it is 32-bit x86 2015-07-14T18:09:45Z francogrex: i'll give it a try just for fun 2015-07-14T18:09:54Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T18:10:09Z francogrex: I had gotten the one of movitz, was ok relatively 2015-07-14T18:10:14Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T18:10:34Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:11:19Z schjetne: Bike: I wasn't planning on explicitly subclassing some other class, but I'm guessing I can do that implicitly in one of the methods belonging to my metaclass. 2015-07-14T18:11:42Z sebbee: odd and even are not functions in clisp? 2015-07-14T18:11:51Z ronh_b is now known as ronh 2015-07-14T18:12:07Z Bike: sebbee: oddp, evenp 2015-07-14T18:12:30Z sebbee: i was just about to write them myself with (mod x 2) 2015-07-14T18:12:34Z sebbee: thanks :D 2015-07-14T18:13:33Z pjb: predicate functions in lisp often have a P or -P suffix. 2015-07-14T18:13:43Z pjb: (there are rules on the presence of -). 2015-07-14T18:14:03Z pjb: But some old predicate functions don't, like null and atom :-) 2015-07-14T18:14:18Z dlowe: sebbee: http://www.cliki.net/Naming+conventions 2015-07-14T18:14:37Z dlowe: and some predicate functions return other useful values, like digit-char-p 2015-07-14T18:15:49Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-14T18:17:00Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-14T18:17:21Z francogrex: hmm it's like a deja vu. I tried this before and ran into the same circular paradox: the defasm macro makes use within its code of a uvectorp function than in itself is a defasm function! 2015-07-14T18:17:47Z pjb: bootstrap. 2015-07-14T18:18:26Z Bike: uvectorp is probably something like (typep x '(simple-array sys:word (*))), though, maybe you could replace it 2015-07-14T18:18:52Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:19:00Z sebbee: is there something like (pair? arg) 2015-07-14T18:19:03Z pjb: yes, and later, if you want, you can re-implement uvectors with your new assembler. 2015-07-14T18:19:07Z sebbee: atom i guess 2015-07-14T18:19:14Z sebbee: if its not an atom, its a list 2015-07-14T18:19:15Z francogrex: ok 2015-07-14T18:19:16Z pjb: Any function used in the assembler can be replaced by equivalent CL functions. 2015-07-14T18:19:34Z pjb: You have to port it to conforming CL, instead of using corman primitives. 2015-07-14T18:19:39Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:19:42Z pjb: sebbee: it's consp 2015-07-14T18:20:23Z pjb: sebbee: (shadown 'listp) (defun listp (x) (or (null x) (consp x))) 2015-07-14T18:20:25Z pjb: shadow 2015-07-14T18:20:46Z sebbee: and whats shadow? 2015-07-14T18:21:09Z sebbee: like shadowing functions 2015-07-14T18:21:11Z pjb: shadow let's you remove from the package a symbol, so you can intern a new symbol with the same name. 2015-07-14T18:21:14Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:21:17Z pjb: It has nothing to do with functions. 2015-07-14T18:21:26Z pjb: It's purely a package/symbol operation. 2015-07-14T18:22:20Z pjb: Now of course, since here I want to fbind a function to a symbol named "LISTP", it has to be a symbol different from CL:LISTP, since you are forbidden to redefine the fbindings of symbols in the CL package. 2015-07-14T18:22:42Z williamy` joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:22:58Z sepi`` joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:23:44Z warweasle left #lisp 2015-07-14T18:24:01Z sebbee: I can shadow every symbol? 2015-07-14T18:25:13Z pjb: Yes, if you wish. 2015-07-14T18:25:13Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:25:34Z pjb: You might prefer to just define a package with no symbol to begin with: (defpackage "S1" (:use)) 2015-07-14T18:25:39Z otwierac1 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:25:48Z ssake__ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:25:50Z pjb: (in-package "S1") (cl:defun f (x) (cl:1+ x)) (f 2) 2015-07-14T18:25:52Z pok_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:25:58Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:26:04Z `micro_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:26:11Z gigetoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:26:21Z pjb: now there are two symbols interned in the package S1, one named "F" and one named "X". 2015-07-14T18:26:22Z dtw: cl:in-package 2015-07-14T18:26:24Z sebbee: Is this why people love lisp? because you can mold it the way you wwant 2015-07-14T18:26:27Z `micro_ is now known as Guest97548 2015-07-14T18:26:31Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-14T18:26:38Z pjb: dtw: I wasn't in "S1" when I evaluated in-package. 2015-07-14T18:26:42Z pjb: sebbee: yes. 2015-07-14T18:26:46Z dtw: True. :-) 2015-07-14T18:26:57Z pchrist_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:27:12Z pjb: sebbee: but indeed, if you want to change the package once you're in S1, you have to use eg. (cl:in-package "CL-USER") 2015-07-14T18:27:19Z contrapunctus: sebbee: fellow Lisp newbie, pinch of salt etc - I think PG's arch analogy is a great answer to that question ;) 2015-07-14T18:27:26Z dtw: Lisp programmers don't need to whine about laguage's features. All can be implemented by any programmer. 2015-07-14T18:28:00Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-14T18:29:11Z ThePhoeron_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:29:14Z sebbee: I'm implementing the add1 and add2 functions 2015-07-14T18:29:23Z dlowe_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:29:27Z marvi_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:29:36Z sebbee: feels good in a strange way 2015-07-14T18:29:45Z rvchangu- joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:29:51Z lpaste_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:29:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:29:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-14T18:29:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:30:04Z ecraven- joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:30:05Z pjb: Then, write a macro to define addN functions. (define-adder N) 2015-07-14T18:30:49Z zacharias quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:49Z williamyao quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:51Z ggherdov quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:51Z l1x quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:51Z ecraven quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:52Z marvi quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:52Z schjetne quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:52Z eli quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:53Z rvchangue_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:53Z lieven quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:53Z dlowe quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:54Z ssake quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:54Z vaporatorius__ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:54Z gz quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:54Z splittist quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:54Z victor_lowther quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:54Z cojy quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:55Z `micro quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:55Z otwieracz quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:55Z lpaste quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:56Z pok quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:56Z faheem_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:56Z gigetoo quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:56Z danlentz quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:56Z zymurgy quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:56Z ThePhoeron quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:56Z sepi` quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:58Z pchrist quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:58Z sshirokov quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:58Z drmeister quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:58Z peccu quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-14T18:30:59Z dlowe_ is now known as dlowe 2015-07-14T18:30:59Z ecraven- is now known as ecraven 2015-07-14T18:30:59Z gigetoo_ is now known as gigetoo 2015-07-14T18:30:59Z otwierac1 is now known as otwieracz 2015-07-14T18:31:07Z sshirokov joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:31:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:32:07Z sebbee: define? 2015-07-14T18:32:09Z sebbee: not defun? 2015-07-14T18:32:09Z schjetne joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:32:14Z pjb: Nope. 2015-07-14T18:32:20Z Shinmera: Xach: Ahah. You're hitting the verbose bug that I was afraid you'd hit before. (I did tell you about that) 2015-07-14T18:32:22Z pjb: defun is an abbreviation for define-function 2015-07-14T18:32:30Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:32:34Z ovidnis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T18:32:45Z sebbee: i am confused 2015-07-14T18:32:45Z Shinmera: Xach: What's happening is that Qtools is compiled after verbose, which activates the #+verbose parts. But then verbose isn't loaded because it isn't an explicit dependency. 2015-07-14T18:32:47Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:32:50Z pjb: you could define a macro named defadder, but it may grow old soon enough, so define-adder is a good name. 2015-07-14T18:33:03Z pjb: sebbee: By what? 2015-07-14T18:33:06Z ovidnis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T18:33:11Z sebbee: I don't know anything about macros yet 2015-07-14T18:33:16Z Shinmera: Xach: I'll think about a better way of doing this. Sorry that you're running into it (I'm frankly surprised you didn't until now) 2015-07-14T18:33:20Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:33:35Z pjb: sebbee: I can teach you all there is to know about macros in two seconds. 2015-07-14T18:33:57Z sebbee: I'd love to hear that 2015-07-14T18:34:04Z pjb: sebbee: can you build a list that contains two symbols, and two lists? 2015-07-14T18:34:27Z sebbee: (list one two (list one) (list two)) ? 2015-07-14T18:34:37Z sebbee: okay maybe that's a terrible example 2015-07-14T18:34:42Z pjb: Well, if you wanted the symbols one and two you'd have to quote them. 2015-07-14T18:34:53Z pjb: (list 'one 'two (list 'one) (list 'two)) --> (one two (one) (two)) ; very good. 2015-07-14T18:35:33Z pjb: Now, build a list whose first symbol is DEFUN, the second is F, and the first list contains one symbol X and the second list contains two symbols and a number: + X 42 2015-07-14T18:36:20Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-14T18:36:38Z pjb: (More exactly, write an expression which when evaluated will build such a list). 2015-07-14T18:36:49Z sebbee: (define-adder (x n) (+ x n)) 2015-07-14T18:36:56Z pjb: Not so fast. 2015-07-14T18:37:06Z pjb: First the call to list. 2015-07-14T18:37:28Z pjb: It's like (list 'one 'two (list 'one) (list 'two)) but with different quoted symbols. 2015-07-14T18:38:04Z sebbee: (list 'DEFUN 'F (list 'x) (list + 'X 42)) 2015-07-14T18:38:12Z sebbee: i dont need to quote the number right 2015-07-14T18:38:17Z pjb: You need to quote '+ 2015-07-14T18:38:24Z pjb: For the number it's not necessary. 2015-07-14T18:38:27Z sebbee: (list 'DEFUN 'F (list 'x) (list '+ 'X 42)) 2015-07-14T18:38:35Z pjb: Good. (list 'defun 'f (list 'x) (list '+ 'x 42)) --> (defun f (x) (+ x 42)) 2015-07-14T18:38:36Z pjb: Notice something strange? 2015-07-14T18:38:47Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-14T18:39:39Z sebbee: i'm not sure 2015-07-14T18:39:41Z pjb: The result of (list 'defun 'f (list 'x) (list '+ 'x 42)) is a sexp that's also lisp code! (defun f (x) (+ x 42)) 2015-07-14T18:40:37Z pjb: Now we'd want to use a symbol whose name is generated as the concatenation of "ADD" and the representation of the number 42 in decimal. So we could obtain (defun add42 (x) (+ x 42)). 2015-07-14T18:40:42Z pjb: How can you do that? 2015-07-14T18:41:10Z sebbee: add a second arg to our function 2015-07-14T18:41:17Z sebbee: and replace it with 42 2015-07-14T18:41:42Z pjb: Well, using format we can build a string containing the name of the symbol we'd want. 2015-07-14T18:41:46Z pjb: (format nil "ADD~D" 42) --> "ADD42" 2015-07-14T18:41:55Z pjb: And using intern, we can obtain the symbol with that name: 2015-07-14T18:42:02Z pjb: (intern (format nil "ADD~D" 42)) --> add42 2015-07-14T18:42:05Z pjb: 2015-07-14T18:42:33Z pjb: So we may use this in our list: (list 'defun (intern (format nil "ADD~D" 42)) (list 'x) (list '+ 'x 42)) --> (defun add42 (x) (+ x 42)) 2015-07-14T18:42:52Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-14T18:43:03Z pjb: and indeed, now we're ready to write a function generate-adder taking a parameter N instead of a literal 42. 2015-07-14T18:43:12Z sebbee: i am a bit lost here 2015-07-14T18:43:21Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:43:22Z sebbee: whats the ~D doing there 2015-07-14T18:43:29Z pjb: Formats in decimal a number. 2015-07-14T18:43:53Z pjb: It's like %d in C. 2015-07-14T18:43:56Z sebbee: ah 2015-07-14T18:44:12Z pjb: So, can you write the defun generate-adder? 2015-07-14T18:44:27Z paddymahoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T18:44:38Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:44:41Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T18:44:42Z sebbee: if ~d is for decimals, is ~s for stringsß 2015-07-14T18:44:50Z pjb: Yes :-) 2015-07-14T18:45:06Z pjb: It's a little more complex. 2015-07-14T18:45:24Z sebbee: (list 'defun (intern (format nil "ADD~S" 'n)) (list 'x 'n) (list '+ 'x 'n)) 2015-07-14T18:45:34Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:45:42Z sebbee: i actually wanted to write "n" 2015-07-14T18:45:45Z sebbee: since its a string 2015-07-14T18:45:48Z sebbee: but not sure about that 2015-07-14T18:45:49Z smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-14T18:46:02Z pjb: Well, 42 was a literal. We still want it to be a literal, only a literal that will change according to our parameter n. 2015-07-14T18:46:17Z williamy`: You have an REPL open; you can just try it :D 2015-07-14T18:46:18Z pjb: So we won't be quoting n, and it won't be a parameter of addN. 2015-07-14T18:46:39Z williamy` is now known as williamyao 2015-07-14T18:46:39Z warweasle: I'm trying to test how much faster floats are than rationals in sbcl. What's the best way to do that. Random tends to be slow. Lists might be adding too much overhead. Any ideas? 2015-07-14T18:46:44Z pjb: sebbee: something like: (defun generate-adder (n) (list 'defun (intern (format nil "ADD~D" n)) (list 'x) (list '+ 'x n))) 2015-07-14T18:47:10Z pjb: warweasle: implement an numeric algorith, like square root, and try it on real and on rationals? 2015-07-14T18:47:15Z sebbee: williamyao: i am scared of the repl :D 2015-07-14T18:47:24Z pjb: sebbee: try (generate-adder 42), (generate-adder 33). 2015-07-14T18:47:32Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T18:47:43Z pjb: sebbee: don't be, the repl is the best candy you can find in the cl chocolate box. 2015-07-14T18:47:56Z lisper29 is now known as Guest54176 2015-07-14T18:48:10Z pjb: sebbee: what do you get from (generate-adder 33) ? 2015-07-14T18:48:19Z Guest54176 is now known as lisper29` 2015-07-14T18:48:21Z warweasle: pjb: Won't calling a function with constants make sbcl optimize and just return a constant value? 2015-07-14T18:49:27Z Bike: only if sbcl knows the function is pure 2015-07-14T18:49:33Z pjb: warweasle: notice rationalize; try: (rationalize pi) ; (let* ((x (random 100.0d0)) (r (rationalize x))) (list (clock (f x)) (clock (f r)))) 2015-07-14T18:49:52Z sebbee: (DEFUN ADD33 (X) (+ X 33)) 2015-07-14T18:49:56Z pjb: warweasle: you may also have two variants with type declarations so (list (clock (f/f x)) (clock (f/r r))) 2015-07-14T18:50:03Z pjb: sebbee: Good! 2015-07-14T18:50:12Z sebbee: this is insane 2015-07-14T18:50:19Z pjb: sebbee: so what we have here is a lisp function taking some arguments, and returning a sexp that is some lisp code. 2015-07-14T18:50:47Z pjb: sebbee: no what we want, is to be able to write (define-adder 33) and that the compiler compiles the lisp code returned by (generate-adder 33) instead of (define-adder 33). 2015-07-14T18:50:57Z Bike: warweasle: you can also do declare noninline to force a call 2015-07-14T18:51:04Z pjb: sebbee: and this is all there is to macros: (defmacro define-adder (n) (generate-adder n)). 2015-07-14T18:51:42Z pjb: sebbee: defmacro lets you install into the compiler a hook so that (define-adder …) forms are compiled by calling instead (generate-adder …) and compiling the resulting code. 2015-07-14T18:51:45Z xificurC_: pjb: thanks for your thoughts. What you are describing can be done in a typed system with e.g. type classes and that version wouldn't error on an e.g. number as input 2015-07-14T18:52:51Z pjb: xificurC_: of course, it's independent of early or late typing. You can do the same in Haskell. The point is that it's the programmer who specifies or use operations that are too type specific. 2015-07-14T18:53:40Z pjb: sebbee: now, of course, the body of defmacro can be any lisp expression, so like with normal functions, you can factorize or defactorize the generate-adder function. 2015-07-14T18:53:42Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-14T18:54:13Z pjb: sebbee: we could write directly: (defmacro define-adder (n) (list 'defun (intern (format nil "ADD~D" n)) (list 'x) (list '+ 'x n))) 2015-07-14T18:54:14Z sebbee: im pretty much stunned right here 2015-07-14T18:54:36Z warweasle: This can't be right. For sqrt, rationals seem faster? 2015-07-14T18:54:48Z pjb: warweasle: :-) 2015-07-14T18:54:49Z xificurC_: pjb: I see your point although I'm not sure I agree. Even if the programmer would e.g. restrict your example in haskell's type system to a type class you can always define a new type that implements the type class 2015-07-14T18:55:39Z Bike: warweasle: in my terrible metric, (sqrt 2982980/18910) takes a few hundred more cycles than (sqrt 157.74617). 2015-07-14T18:55:55Z Bike: make sure you call with wide ranges of values and all. 2015-07-14T18:56:03Z xificurC_: and a misuse would be caught at compile time, which is a nice ensurance you get from the type checker that your code is sane in at least that sense 2015-07-14T18:56:05Z jasom: xificurC_: and if you use a defgeneric, the programmer can implement a method for another type 2015-07-14T18:56:35Z xificurC_: jasom: and can you enforce it on compile time? 2015-07-14T18:56:44Z Bike: when i learned about typeclasses i was actually just like, wow, this is a weird way to do methods 2015-07-14T18:57:04Z sebbee: how do I get rid of the define-adder function inside my slime? 2015-07-14T18:57:18Z pjb: Why? 2015-07-14T18:57:24Z sebbee: well 2015-07-14T18:57:34Z pjb: You can (unintern 'define-adder) 2015-07-14T18:57:40Z sebbee: okay 2015-07-14T18:58:00Z sebbee: just in case I'm creating a terrible function and want to recreate it 2015-07-14T18:58:07Z sebbee: i should unintern it first and then reimplement it 2015-07-14T18:58:07Z Bike: warweasle: by the way, in sbcl sqrt on ratios is just defined as (coerce (%sqrt (coerce num 'double-float)) 'single-float), it seems. 2015-07-14T18:58:23Z pjb: You need unintern when you change the category, between function, generic functions, macros. 2015-07-14T18:58:44Z pjb: sebbee: but otherwise, you can redefine your functions without further ado. 2015-07-14T18:58:46Z warweasle: I'm getting rationals slightly faster on windows. 2015-07-14T18:59:07Z pjb: sebbee: try with bigger rationals. eg. by requiring more precision? 2015-07-14T18:59:17Z pjb: s/sebbee/warweasle/ 2015-07-14T18:59:51Z jasom: xificurC_: a compiler could emit a style-warning if a gf is invoked for which there is no existing method 2015-07-14T19:00:03Z jasom: xificurC_: but I'm not aware of any compiler that does 2015-07-14T19:00:24Z pjb: They just do no-such-method errors. 2015-07-14T19:00:35Z pjb: I mean, no-applicable-method 2015-07-14T19:00:46Z Bike: it would be pretty difficult because CLOS is so MOPy 2015-07-14T19:00:54Z jasom: pjb: xificurC_ asked about compile time detection 2015-07-14T19:01:06Z pjb: ok. 2015-07-14T19:01:06Z warweasle: I just used the same value: 51583/327 2015-07-14T19:01:33Z Bike: yeah one value isn't going to do it 2015-07-14T19:01:36Z jasom: Bike: well this would be for standard method resolution; obviously if you customize that, all bets are off 2015-07-14T19:01:45Z xificurC_: maybe I'm just too cautious about this and bugs like this don't lurk too much into code anyway 2015-07-14T19:02:03Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T19:02:03Z pjb: (rationalize (sqrt 51583/327)) -> 25559/2035 ; such a result doesn't push rationals very far. You want more precision that what you get with single-floats or even double-floats. 2015-07-14T19:02:06Z pjb: 2015-07-14T19:02:07Z frsilent quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T19:02:13Z cpopell5 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-14T19:02:21Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:02:24Z Shinmera: warweasle: If you want to benchmark things, try trivial-benchmark. 2015-07-14T19:02:33Z pjb: or said otherwise, if you don't require more precision, then rationals cannot run too far behid floating points. 2015-07-14T19:02:39Z Bike: jasom: i mean, making sure the gf isn't customized isn't always easy 2015-07-14T19:02:41Z xificurC_: I just thought having more compile time guarantees and checks is always a bonus to ensure your code is sane. But you guys coded a lot of CL to know if you'd get more benefits or issues with something like that 2015-07-14T19:02:53Z C3D20 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:02:58Z warweasle: pjb: But rationals are bignums. they will take linear time with size. Floats have a set precision. 2015-07-14T19:03:04Z pjb: I mean, on 64-bit processors, the numerator and denominators stay within the 64-bit range! 2015-07-14T19:03:11Z jasom: xificurC_: it is true that a good type system will prevent some bugs. However, it also makes doing certain things harder 2015-07-14T19:03:16Z pjb: warweasle: see they're not bignums on 64-bit processors :-) 2015-07-14T19:03:18Z Bike: warweasle: so your comparison is inherently flawed? 2015-07-14T19:03:27Z xificurC_: jasom: care to give a simple example? 2015-07-14T19:03:31Z sebbee: pjb: thanks for your example. :-) i'm going to implement simple functions for now to see what clisp can do 2015-07-14T19:03:38Z jasom: xificurC_: custom method resolution 2015-07-14T19:03:45Z pjb: So basically, ratio operations are just 2 integer operations vs. 1 float operation. 2015-07-14T19:04:05Z pjb: sebbee: ok, final word: when the body of the macro is complex (when it generates a lot of code), then it's useful to have the macro call generating functions and do the hard work in functions (easier to debug too). But often macros generate simple expressions, so we have all the code directly in the macro body. 2015-07-14T19:04:18Z warweasle: Shinmera: Do you know how to invoke it? 2015-07-14T19:04:23Z Bike: only some integer operations. sqrt isn't good since the operation on ratios is in fact a division and then a floating point operation 2015-07-14T19:04:26Z xificurC_: jasom: yeah, stuff like that is past my experience for now 2015-07-14T19:04:32Z pjb: sebbee: and there's also the backquote and comma reader macros to help with writing list following templates. 2015-07-14T19:04:33Z warweasle: Shinmera: Trival-benchmark 2015-07-14T19:04:38Z sebbee: pjb: so I should refrain from using defun and write macros all the time 2015-07-14T19:04:39Z xificurC_: maybe one day I'll see this more clearly 2015-07-14T19:04:42Z pjb: sebbee: but it's orthogonal to macros. 2015-07-14T19:04:49Z xificurC_: thank you for your input guys 2015-07-14T19:04:51Z Shinmera: warweasle: http://shinmera.github.io/trivial-benchmark/ 2015-07-14T19:05:10Z pjb: sebbee: no, you shoudl write functions usually. Macros are for when you want to write a function generating code. 2015-07-14T19:05:26Z jasom: xificurC_: any time there are two choices, it's likely that there are tradeoffs 2015-07-14T19:05:37Z sebbee: pjb: gotcha 2015-07-14T19:05:40Z xificurC_: there sure are 2015-07-14T19:05:48Z pjb: sebbee: for example, there are more than 900 operators in CL, but less than 70 macros. 2015-07-14T19:06:23Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T19:07:02Z jasom: xificurC_: It's also notoriously hard to get significant quantities of good data on the effect of tools on productivity, so we can't say "static type systems reduce feature pace by X% but reduce defect rate by Y%" 2015-07-14T19:07:37Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T19:07:41Z jasom: If you test your code, some fraction of the tests you write would be obviated by a powerful compile-time type system. 2015-07-14T19:07:45Z Bike: i count 91, so less than 100 (pedantic) 2015-07-14T19:07:55Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:07:57Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:08:04Z xificurC_: jasom: yeah, while simple examples can show the difference it's probably hard to show it in the more complex ones 2015-07-14T19:08:33Z pjb: Bike: special operators can be covered with macros too. 2015-07-14T19:08:41Z sebbee: pjb: just a small question again, I think you answered that earlier, Can I compile lisp to c? 2015-07-14T19:08:46Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:08:58Z warweasle: I'm just going to believe windows:sbcl's floats are slow. 2015-07-14T19:09:02Z jasom: If we could ever download peoples brains to computers, we actually could do controlled trials (copy A works with haskell, copy B works with lisp) 2015-07-14T19:09:13Z antoszka: sebbee: you can, but you generally compile it directly to high quality machine code, so there's usually no reason to compile to C 2015-07-14T19:09:22Z Bike: warweasle: that is probably a premature conclusion 2015-07-14T19:09:25Z pjb: sebbee: yes. ecl and gcl generate intermediary C code, that they compile with gcc. 2015-07-14T19:09:46Z pjb: sebbee: there are also converters such as clicc and mocl that translate lisp code to C, to be compiled externally and included in C projects. 2015-07-14T19:09:54Z antoszka: Is gcl still maintained at all? Haven't heard much about it in the recent years. 2015-07-14T19:10:09Z xificurC_: jasom: even that could be hard to quantify 2015-07-14T19:10:13Z pjb: antoszka: yes. They made some progress a few months ago. 2015-07-14T19:10:13Z sebbee: antoszka: high quality machine code? 2015-07-14T19:10:15Z warweasle: Bike: I'm not publishing my results, I just wanted to know if my opengl calculations would take a major hit using rationals. 2015-07-14T19:10:35Z warweasle: Bike: Right now my conclusion is to try it on Linux. 2015-07-14T19:10:36Z pjb: sebbee: sbcl can generate code that runs faster than equivalent C code compiled by gcc in some cases. 2015-07-14T19:10:37Z Bike: probably not too major 2015-07-14T19:10:46Z antoszka: sebbee: Yes. Most implementations include a native compiler. 2015-07-14T19:10:48Z pjb: sebbee: cf http://cliki.net/Performance 2015-07-14T19:10:49Z Bike: and in any case with GL you're going to need singles anyway, so 2015-07-14T19:10:53Z antoszka: sebbee: And what pjb says. 2015-07-14T19:11:49Z Bike: warweasle: though i don't want to scare you off from using rationals, if that makes more sense for whatever you're doing. 2015-07-14T19:12:09Z dmitigr: sebbee: the primary reason you want to translate Lisp to C when the Lisp impl. could not be/don't ported to the target platform. 2015-07-14T19:12:10Z warweasle: Bike: It doesn't. I'm just chasing windmills. 2015-07-14T19:13:00Z Bike: http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2134 2015-07-14T19:14:56Z sebbee: dmitigr: but when I install gnu clisp im good to go i guess 2015-07-14T19:15:25Z sebbee: whats the goto library for guis? 2015-07-14T19:15:28Z pjb: sebbee: what OS do you use? 2015-07-14T19:15:42Z sebbee: I'm on a dreadful windows machine currently 2015-07-14T19:16:02Z pjb: clisp and ccl work nicely on MS-Windows. sbcl can work there too. 2015-07-14T19:16:03Z jasom: sebbee: commonqt is probably the best gui library at the moment 2015-07-14T19:16:13Z warweasle: sebbee: Where we're going, we don't NEED GUIs. 2015-07-14T19:16:29Z sebbee: I'm just asking for the rare case that a customer demands guis 2015-07-14T19:16:46Z Shinmera: sebbee: Have a look at http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ 2015-07-14T19:16:48Z warweasle: sebbee: I'm joking of course. 2015-07-14T19:16:49Z dmitigr: sebbee: Racket has GUI. 2015-07-14T19:16:52Z pjb: There's not a lot of MS-Windows GUI to be used from CL. I guess you could use GTk or common-Qt. But if I had to do a GUI app on MS-Windows, I guess I'd use ccl and directly FFI the MS-Windows APi. 2015-07-14T19:17:46Z sebbee: but isnt racket scheme? 2015-07-14T19:17:56Z Shinmera: Racket is neither CL nor Scheme 2015-07-14T19:18:01Z Shinmera: So: Off-topic 2015-07-14T19:18:19Z dmitigr: Shinmera: off-topic? lol 2015-07-14T19:18:26Z dmitigr: dmitigr: it's #lisp? 2015-07-14T19:18:37Z Bike: check the topic 2015-07-14T19:18:37Z Shinmera: Read the topic. 2015-07-14T19:18:55Z dmitigr shrug. 2015-07-14T19:19:09Z dmitigr: okay, Racket is not Lisp, good to know :-) 2015-07-14T19:19:19Z Bike: apparently there's ##lisp now if you want to talk about parentheses in general 2015-07-14T19:19:58Z sebbee: Don't get your pitchforks 2015-07-14T19:20:00Z warweasle: Racket is not a lisp? 2015-07-14T19:20:08Z pjb: Nope, it's scheme. 2015-07-14T19:20:17Z Bike: it's not "lisp", where "lisp" means common lisp, which is the topic of this channel 2015-07-14T19:20:43Z Bike: 's not like speech impediments would be on topic either 2015-07-14T19:20:51Z dmitigr: Bike: no, I don't want to talk about parentheses. It's stupid. I just want to say, that when I opened Realm Of Racket, I saw the photo of John McCarthy. So, I don't clearly understand what the problem? :-) 2015-07-14T19:20:53Z warweasle: I feel like this is a Monty Python skit. THE PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JEDUEA! 2015-07-14T19:21:00Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:21:30Z dmitigr: Bike: Lisp is an idea, not a language. 2015-07-14T19:21:32Z Bike: dmitigr: this channel is about common lisp and not racket, as evidenced by what we talk about and the topic. 2015-07-14T19:21:42Z sebbee: I just implemented (defun half (x) (/ x 2)) 2015-07-14T19:21:48Z sebbee: and i accidentally divided through zero 2015-07-14T19:21:57Z dmitigr: Bike: okay, you can ban me for the word "Racket". 2015-07-14T19:22:04Z sebbee: actually i didnt 2015-07-14T19:22:07Z Bike: i think you're thinking that i'm way more hostile than i am. 2015-07-14T19:22:23Z Oladon: Bike: hostile people tend to perceive others as hostile as well. 2015-07-14T19:22:44Z warweasle quit (Quit: Look at me still talking when there science to do...) 2015-07-14T19:23:00Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:23:29Z digiorgi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T19:24:17Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:24:33Z dmitigr: I don't crearly understand why the channel dedicated to Common Lisp called #lisp rather than #cl. Okay, I don't read the topic, but I don't understand why Racket which /is/ Lisp cannot be recommended for it GUI library. 2015-07-14T19:24:56Z H4ns: dmitigr: just get on with it. 2015-07-14T19:24:59Z antoszka: dmitigr: Just assume it's historical reasons. 2015-07-14T19:26:05Z vhost- quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-14T19:26:40Z dmitigr: antoszka: okay, I'm assumed :-) 2015-07-14T19:26:57Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-14T19:27:06Z pjb: dmitigr: because you have to assume that somebody who asks in #lisp wants a CL answer. 2015-07-14T19:27:25Z pjb: dmitigr: use ##lisp if you don't want to assume anything, use #scheme if you want to assume scheme. 2015-07-14T19:27:46Z Bike: "Look, it's the #python channel, I don't see why y'all are so negative about ophiology" 2015-07-14T19:28:21Z dmitigr: pjb: I already answered -- I assumed that #lisp about Lisp, rather than about just one of it's dialects. Mea culpa that I'm not read the topic. 2015-07-14T19:28:33Z Bike: ok, let's drop it then 2015-07-14T19:29:11Z vhost- joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:31:21Z sebbee: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation is beautiful 2015-07-14T19:31:43Z antoszka: sebbee: You can get a dead-tree form as well. It's nicely published. 2015-07-14T19:31:48Z antoszka: (and recently reprinted) 2015-07-14T19:32:39Z sebbee: I will consider that 2015-07-14T19:33:26Z antoszka: Actually most of the interesting Common Lisp books are pretty easy to obtain new. 2015-07-14T19:34:44Z dmitigr are waiting for a new book from Dr. Edmund Weitz. 2015-07-14T19:34:58Z antoszka: Yeah! 2015-07-14T19:36:06Z Xach: eBay prices on many CL books are pretty low. 2015-07-14T19:36:20Z Xach: I picked up a nearly-new copy of ANSI Common Lisp for about $5 2015-07-14T19:37:03Z sebbee: do I need a library to get started with HTTP? 2015-07-14T19:37:20Z williamyao: Define 'need.' 2015-07-14T19:37:57Z sebbee: need = are there http functions included within the clisp standard ecosystem 2015-07-14T19:38:13Z sebbee: or tcp, udp whatever 2015-07-14T19:38:29Z xificurC_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-14T19:38:29Z williamyao: Nope, not specifically. If you haven't already, pick up quicklisp, then install drakma and hunchentoot. 2015-07-14T19:38:44Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:38:45Z pjb: sebbee: well, http is a simple protocol you can easily implement directly for simple requests. On the other hand, there are also extensions and more sophisticated uses, for which you may want to use a library. Currently, I use drakma for client, and hunchentoot + my own html generating macros for server. 2015-07-14T19:39:14Z sebbee: Thanks! 2015-07-14T19:39:19Z pjb: sebbee: check the examples of socket programming in http://clisp.cons.org documentation. 2015-07-14T19:39:21Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-14T19:39:41Z arpunk quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-14T19:39:56Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:40:01Z sebbee: link is redirecting to the top level domain 2015-07-14T19:40:14Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:40:34Z pjb: sebbee: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/socket.html 2015-07-14T19:40:51Z pjb: Example 32.14. Lisp HTTP client 2015-07-14T19:41:22Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:41:41Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:41:59Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T19:42:04Z contrapunctus quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-14T19:42:07Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus 2015-07-14T19:42:26Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T19:42:56Z pjb: sebbee: but when you start writing serious lisp code, you want to write conforming code and avoid using implementation specific features directly, so you would use "portability libraries" that modularize and let you use those features from any implementation. So instead of using the SOCKET package of clisp directly, you'd use usocket or iolib. And then using other libraries such as drakma and hunchentoot comes naturally. 2015-07-14T19:43:06Z pjb: sebbee: check http://cliki.net for libraries. 2015-07-14T19:43:14Z pjb: (and of course quicklisp). 2015-07-14T19:44:09Z sebbee: I followed the guide on cliki.net and have clisp, quicklisp and slime ready on here 2015-07-14T19:44:16Z pjb: good. 2015-07-14T19:44:39Z pjb: I mean use the search box in http://cliki.net to find libraries about anything you want. 2015-07-14T19:45:46Z dmitigr: http://quickdocs.org/ are also way to find. 2015-07-14T19:45:49Z sebbee: hunchen and drakma are created by the same person :) 2015-07-14T19:46:44Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:47:04Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-14T19:47:08Z dmh: usocket loaded w/ quicklisp is really great 2015-07-14T19:47:22Z dmh: i got pretty far with that and never looked at implemetation sockets again 2015-07-14T19:48:03Z arpunk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T19:48:07Z sebbee: i cannot use (ql:quickload :drakma) from within slime 2015-07-14T19:48:32Z sebbee: "there is no package named QL" 2015-07-14T19:48:41Z sebbee: but I did install slime earlier with the same command :/ 2015-07-14T19:49:08Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:49:36Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-14T19:49:48Z aeth: What's the difference between these? (append '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) and (concatenate 'list '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) 2015-07-14T19:49:49Z antoszka: sebbee: Seems that the lisp loaded in your SLIME is missing quicklisp init. 2015-07-14T19:50:02Z antoszka: sebbee: Did you follow the steps to add quicklisp to your lisp's init file? 2015-07-14T19:50:12Z aeth: Is append vs. concatenate just because Common Lisp tends to have one thing for lists and another for sequences (map/mapcar, append/concatenate, elt/nth, etc.)? 2015-07-14T19:50:24Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:51:07Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T19:51:12Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:51:29Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T19:51:42Z sebbee: i forgot to add the lines to my .clisprc.lisp but it is nowhere to be found 2015-07-14T19:52:11Z Bike: aeth: more or less 2015-07-14T19:52:19Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T19:52:34Z pjb: aeth: append doesn't copy the last list, concatenate copies all the sequences. 2015-07-14T19:52:40Z antoszka: sebbee: You can create the file in your home directory if it does not exist. 2015-07-14T19:52:50Z sebbee: thats the question 2015-07-14T19:52:54Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:52:54Z lieven joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:52:54Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:52:54Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:52:54Z peccu joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:52:56Z sebbee: where will lisp search for the .clisprc.lisp 2015-07-14T19:53:09Z sebbee: C:/users/sbe/ or C:/users/sbe/appdata/roaming ? 2015-07-14T19:53:41Z pjb: (with-open-file (out "~/.clisprc.lisp" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists :append) (print '… out)) 2015-07-14T19:53:55Z pjb: sebbee: it's hard to say, so create it from within clisp ;-) 2015-07-14T19:54:02Z aeth: pjb: interesting, so append should actually be avoided in '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6) unless the code has no side effects on the '(4 5 6), then, I guess 2015-07-14T19:54:12Z ahungry: What would be the easiest way to present REPL text to a web browser? In particular debugger errors requiring interactivity? Is there a swank client written in javascript or anything? 2015-07-14T19:54:17Z aeth: Although I guess that's kind of given in '(4 5 6) being used instead of (list 4 5 6) 2015-07-14T19:54:17Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:55:06Z pjb: sebbee: http://paste.lisp.org/+38YW 2015-07-14T19:55:15Z pjb: aeth: exactly. 2015-07-14T19:55:35Z pjb: aeth: also, concatenate is nice since it works with any kind of sequence. 2015-07-14T19:55:47Z cojy joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:55:49Z l1x joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:55:55Z pjb: (concatenate 'list #(1 2 3) '(3 4 5) "hello") --> (1 2 3 3 4 5 #\h #\e #\l #\l #\o) 2015-07-14T19:56:09Z gz joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:56:19Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:56:29Z sebbee: how do I paste into the clisp terminal :-) 2015-07-14T19:56:36Z pjb: (concatenate 'string "ADD" #(#\4 #\2) '(#\- #\Y #\A #\Y)) --> "ADD42-YAY" 2015-07-14T19:56:44Z antoszka: You don't, just do it in the shell, sebbee. 2015-07-14T19:56:46Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-14T19:56:49Z pjb: sebbee: MS-Windows question. I'm not sure. 2015-07-14T19:57:04Z dmh: sebbee: i dont think you can w/o a patch 2015-07-14T19:57:06Z pjb: sebbee: That's why we prefer to use emacs as UI. 2015-07-14T19:57:09Z dmh: ghetto :( 2015-07-14T19:57:13Z antoszka: sebbee: Or re-run the quicklisp installation steps, not missing the add-to-init step. 2015-07-14T19:57:15Z edgar-rft: sebbee: start CLISP without a .clisprc file, then at the CLISP REPL see the result of (user-homedir-pathname), it will return the directory that CLISP thinks to be your HOME directory 2015-07-14T19:57:20Z antoszka: sebbee: Quicklisp will do it for you. 2015-07-14T19:57:38Z Xach: You don't have to re-run installation. You can (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") and use (ql:add-to-init-file) after that. 2015-07-14T19:57:47Z sebbee: c:/users/sbe 2015-07-14T19:57:48Z sebbee: alright 2015-07-14T19:58:30Z mood_: If I'm using Esrap to implement a grammar that specifies a string as being opened by an arbitrary number of single quotes and closed by the same number of single quotes, is there a way to implement that without resorting to (function ...) ? 2015-07-14T19:58:37Z mood_ is now known as mood 2015-07-14T19:59:11Z sebbee: I really have to say, this is the friendliest irc channel in a while 2015-07-14T19:59:32Z edgar-rft: sebbee: but only sometimes... 2015-07-14T19:59:40Z dmh: compared to what? :P 2015-07-14T19:59:50Z mc40: Shinmera: I managed to quickload :qtools on my mac but had to manually change LD_LIBRARY_PATH to DYLD_LIBRARY path and then build smokeqt in shell before restarting the quickload process which completed successfully I hope. 2015-07-14T19:59:54Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T19:59:56Z Bike: mood: you can recurse, can't you? 2015-07-14T20:00:11Z Shinmera: mc40: You shouldn't have to do that 2015-07-14T20:00:12Z dlowe: mood: if you have quoted-string := " string " | " quoted-string " I think that would do it 2015-07-14T20:00:24Z dlowe: (in the appropriate esrap notation, of course) 2015-07-14T20:00:32Z mood: I'll give it a try 2015-07-14T20:00:45Z dlowe: seems like a weird mode of operation, though 2015-07-14T20:00:48Z Shinmera: mc40: are you sure you're on the latest quicklisp? 2015-07-14T20:00:56Z dlowe: what if you want a quote in your quoted string? 2015-07-14T20:00:57Z mc40: Shinmera: Let me check 2015-07-14T20:01:14Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:01:23Z mood: dlowe: Anything that isn't the initial number of quotes is just inserted into the string 2015-07-14T20:02:52Z mc40: Shinmera: 2015-06-16 even after I run ql:update-client 2015-07-14T20:03:17Z Shinmera: mc40: That updates the client, not the quicklisp dist. 2015-07-14T20:03:26Z Shinmera: mc40: try (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") 2015-07-14T20:03:29Z faheem_ joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:04:16Z mc40: Shinmera: ok thanks I should probably have known that :) 2015-07-14T20:04:43Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:04:48Z sebbee: still not working 2015-07-14T20:04:57Z sebbee: when I open clisp on its own, I can ql:quickload with no problems 2015-07-14T20:05:01Z sebbee: but I can't do that within slime 2015-07-14T20:05:49Z pjb: Compare (user-homedir-pathname) in the terminal and in slime? 2015-07-14T20:06:02Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:06:30Z Posterdati: sebbee: you have to add the path of your projects 2015-07-14T20:06:44Z pjb: Not with quicklisp, it manages alone. 2015-07-14T20:06:57Z pjb: Oh, you mean sebbee's own projects. 2015-07-14T20:07:19Z pjb: sebbee: Yes. what system do you try to quickload? 2015-07-14T20:07:34Z sebbee: drakma 2015-07-14T20:07:47Z pjb: it should work. 2015-07-14T20:07:56Z pjb: does (user-homedir-pathname) return the same thing in both cases? 2015-07-14T20:08:08Z sebbee: (ql:quickload :drakma) yields: there is no package QL 2015-07-14T20:08:23Z pjb: Yes. It seems it didn't load ~/.clisprc.lisp 2015-07-14T20:08:36Z sebbee: now its roaming 2015-07-14T20:08:37Z pjb: Do you have a -norc option in inferior-lisp-program ? 2015-07-14T20:08:57Z pjb: sebbee: yes, MS-Windows is strange like that. So install a copy of ~/.clisprc.lisp there too. 2015-07-14T20:08:58Z antoszka: That looks like a possible reason. 2015-07-14T20:09:04Z pjb: (and remember to update both). 2015-07-14T20:09:34Z pjb: Perhaps you can set some environment variable in emacs so that when clisp is launched from slime, you get the same home directory? 2015-07-14T20:09:49Z pjb: %HOME% or %APPsomething% I don't remember. 2015-07-14T20:09:55Z dmh: %APPDATA% 2015-07-14T20:09:58Z dmh: i think 2015-07-14T20:10:03Z antoszka: #windows… :) 2015-07-14T20:10:05Z sebbee: can I shadow the user-homedir-pathname function? 2015-07-14T20:10:13Z dmh: I'm switching to clisp right now let me cehck 2015-07-14T20:10:48Z pjb: So you could put (setf (getenv "%APPDATA%") "C:/users/sbe/") in ~/.emacs 2015-07-14T20:11:09Z pjb: sebbee: no, that wouldn't help to shadow user-homedir-pathname. 2015-07-14T20:11:26Z pjb: sebbee: old code would still refer to cl:user-homedir-pathname. . 2015-07-14T20:11:55Z pjb: sebbee: but if you set the environment variabl %APPDATA% (or perhaps %HOME%) in emacs, then when slime forks clisp, clisp will get the right homedir. 2015-07-14T20:11:58Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-14T20:13:08Z dmh: hrm, its (getenv "APPDATA") for me 2015-07-14T20:13:26Z dmh: but slime worked without any messing about 2015-07-14T20:13:27Z pjb: And dierctly to the homedir? 2015-07-14T20:13:36Z pjb: (setf (getenv "APPDATA") "C:/users/sbe/") ? 2015-07-14T20:13:38Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:13:46Z dmh: I didnt change it 2015-07-14T20:14:14Z sebbee: yea :D ql is now visible to slime 2015-07-14T20:14:19Z sebbee: but here goes the next error: Unable to load foreign library (LIBSSL). 2015-07-14T20:14:22Z pjb: dmh: Does it point to your homedir where .clisprc.lisp is, or to some other subdirectory? 2015-07-14T20:14:49Z pjb: sebbee: Right. it's unfortunate that some lisp libraries use foreign libraries. 2015-07-14T20:15:04Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-14T20:15:22Z pjb: sebbee: you would have to locate the sources of the libssl library compile it on MS-Windows, producing a libssl.dll, and have it use that. 2015-07-14T20:15:30Z dmh: roaming appdata (C:\Users\Dexter\AppData\Roaming), I don't have a .clisprc.lisp 2015-07-14T20:15:45Z pjb: sebbee: Are you sure you want to use MS-Windows? It makes things much more complicated… 2015-07-14T20:15:50Z pjb: (than linux). 2015-07-14T20:15:52Z dmh: wait, quicklisp didnt install right :) let me do again :p 2015-07-14T20:16:03Z sebbee: I've got a debian on this machine 2015-07-14T20:17:19Z dmh: pjb: same problem indeed, clisp rc goes to C:\users\<name> 2015-07-14T20:17:20Z antoszka: sebbee: Yeah, that's definitely gonna make things easier. 2015-07-14T20:17:25Z antoszka: sebbee: If you run Debian. 2015-07-14T20:17:46Z antoszka: sebbee: And you may choose 'sbcl' as your main implementation of choice, it seems to be best supported by the community. 2015-07-14T20:18:12Z waaron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T20:18:25Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:19:07Z C3D20 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-07-14T20:19:29Z sebbee: im stuck on windows today for "reasons" 2015-07-14T20:20:14Z pjb: sebbee: well, once you have the right configuration, it will be ok. 2015-07-14T20:20:44Z antoszka: sebbee: Consider running a Linux in a virtual machine then (for the purpose of playing around with common lisp) 2015-07-14T20:21:03Z antoszka: sebbee: unless you want to program stuff for Windows, in which case, obviously, you'll have to deal with the related problems :) 2015-07-14T20:22:35Z dmh: it's not that bad once you get it going :) 2015-07-14T20:22:55Z dmh: certainly difficult there though, especially if you use vim 2015-07-14T20:23:04Z dmh: which is probably unlikely 2015-07-14T20:23:36Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T20:23:51Z RazWelle1 is now known as RazW 2015-07-14T20:24:49Z RazW is now known as RazWelles 2015-07-14T20:25:46Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:25:50Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-14T20:26:28Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:28:45Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:30:32Z mood: I adapted my esrap problem a bit, to use Lua-style [==[string]==]s. The basic idea works, but since there is no non-greedy repetition it doesn't work. Am I missing something? http://paste.lisp.org/+38YX 2015-07-14T20:31:49Z dmh: pjb: now i'm just curious, trying to fix same problem. (setf (getenv "APPDATA") "C:/foo")) doesn't work: 2015-07-14T20:31:59Z dmh: ;; NOTE: even tho ql says to put "~/quicklisp" that doesnt work on windows, because that expands to appdata, but quick lisp ended up installed to users/dexter/quicklisp :( so just use fullpath wtf 2015-07-14T20:32:07Z dmh: er, wrong line sorry 2015-07-14T20:32:11Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T20:32:20Z dmh: error: (getenv "APPDATA") is not a valid place expression 2015-07-14T20:35:15Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:35:20Z yati quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T20:37:50Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T20:39:54Z dmh: somehow lost tab completion in emacs in the process haha 2015-07-14T20:41:23Z pjb: Then use (setenv "APPDATA" "c:/users/seb/") 2015-07-14T20:41:48Z pjb: Perhaps (require 'cl) before (setf (getenv "APPDATA") "c:/users/seb/") would help. 2015-07-14T20:42:42Z dmh: I got it working somehow without this before so I'm digging around 2015-07-14T20:42:53Z dmh: I think with quicklisp-slime-helper 2015-07-14T20:43:20Z pjb: I don't have my MS-Windows machine available now, but since I load a common common.lisp rc file, IIRC, I just put a duplicate of .clisprc.lisp in each directory. 2015-07-14T20:43:34Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T20:44:01Z dmh: ah 2015-07-14T20:44:01Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:44:48Z aeth: I'm not a hardware person. Is it possible to put Common Lisp on an FPGA? 2015-07-14T20:45:15Z aeth: Is that one way to get a lispm? 2015-07-14T20:45:55Z Xach: Marc Battyani used CL to compile programs to FPGA for high-frequency trading appliances. 2015-07-14T20:46:09Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:46:22Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-14T20:46:49Z antoszka: mrSpec was the guy most recently working on it :) 2015-07-14T20:47:03Z antoszka: (for the same company that MB created) 2015-07-14T20:47:04Z Bike: FPGAs don't run programs in the right sense 2015-07-14T20:47:23Z pjb: You can implement algorithms in FPGAs. 2015-07-14T20:47:24Z dmh: its fried in at gate level at that point, no? 2015-07-14T20:47:26Z Bike: you could, of course, design a lispm, put it on an fpga, and then run lisp on that 2015-07-14T20:47:48Z pjb: you could also implement a Common Lisp processor directly. 2015-07-14T20:47:57Z pjb: But you'd need a big FGPA. 2015-07-14T20:48:07Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:48:14Z pjb: It's easier and cheaper to use a layered architecture. 2015-07-14T20:48:50Z edgar-rft: aeth: yes, its possible, but you would inadvertibly run into the same problems like the old Lisp Machines, with every update you would need new hardware. 2015-07-14T20:50:43Z whartung: But it's an FPGA, so updating the hardware is easy :) 2015-07-14T20:51:52Z edgar-rft: Yes, today it's easier than updating old Lisp Machine hardware, but still annoying.. 2015-07-14T20:52:16Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-14T20:52:37Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:52:50Z sebbee: pjb: insanely easy on debian 2015-07-14T20:52:53Z sebbee: thanks again 2015-07-14T20:52:54Z pjb: edgar-rft: you didn't need new hardware with the old harware: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/CADR_-_The_Lisp_Machine,_late_1970s,_view_1_-_MIT_Museum_-_DSC03747.JPG 2015-07-14T20:53:03Z pjb: edgar-rft: just change a few patches. 2015-07-14T20:53:05Z pjb: ie. actual cables! 2015-07-14T20:53:14Z pjb: sebbee: you're welcome. Have fun! 2015-07-14T20:54:57Z Xach: that reminds me 2015-07-14T20:55:17Z pchrist_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T20:55:32Z Xach: http://www.ebay.com/itm/221823700991 <-- draft working paper for the CONS lisp machine 2015-07-14T20:56:28Z pjb: Yep, that should go to a museum… 2015-07-14T20:56:36Z edgar-rft: pjb: dream on, or do you really think that you can make a 1970s Lisp machine compete with 2015s hardware by changing a few cables? 2015-07-14T20:57:03Z Xach: http://www.ebay.com/itm/361338634479 made me laugh too 2015-07-14T20:57:16Z pjb: edgar-rft: a guy is creating a mega processor: http://www.megaprocessor.com/ 2015-07-14T20:57:37Z pchrist joined #lisp 2015-07-14T20:58:07Z pjb: edgar-rft: you can't deny it was cool to be able to "upgrade" your processor by adding/changing a few discrete component in the middle of it and come out with new instructions. 2015-07-14T20:58:37Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-14T20:59:25Z pjb: Imagine: you logged on your computer and the MOTD was: "hey guys, we have two new instructions, blah blah, update your programs!" :-) 2015-07-14T21:00:15Z oGMo: heh 2015-07-14T21:00:16Z whartung: kudos to the megaprocessor guy, but I seriously don't see the point, not at the scale he's doing it. A 16 bit processor made out of transisitors isn't any more interesting than a 4 bit processor, it's just a lot more transisitors. 2015-07-14T21:00:27Z edgar-rft: The megaprocessor idea is old (but funny), I heard this already 30 yoars ago :-) 2015-07-14T21:00:32Z pjb: I guess you could still retrieve such messages on internet. 2015-07-14T21:00:33Z Bike: i have a few instructions not working on my home computer because i'm too chickenshit to upgrade the mobo firmware, so, that's sort of already happening. 2015-07-14T21:00:55Z oGMo: i imagine more instructions being added, with encoded semantics, and a compiler being smart enough to figure out how to integrate them automatically 2015-07-14T21:01:03Z pjb: whartung: it's more "practical" You could implement CL on a 16-bit processor, not on a 4-bit. 2015-07-14T21:01:32Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T21:01:33Z rick-monster joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:01:35Z whartung: he has 256 byte of ram pjb 2015-07-14T21:01:46Z pjb: edgar-rft: and at least, with his processor, he can trust the hardware! 2015-07-14T21:01:58Z pjb: whartung: yes, he would have to add some ram. 2015-07-14T21:01:58Z dmitigr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T21:02:09Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:02:53Z edgar-rft: But debugging a megaprocessor would be a nightmare. Which of the million transistors is dead? 2015-07-14T21:03:02Z whartung: simple, the black one 2015-07-14T21:03:04Z pjb: Well, like any debugging. 2015-07-14T21:03:10Z pjb: The smoking one. 2015-07-14T21:03:17Z whartung: yea, the "red" one 2015-07-14T21:03:31Z whartung: "I use FLIR to debug my CPU" 2015-07-14T21:03:37Z pjb: :-) 2015-07-14T21:04:22Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:04:32Z streptotrichosis joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:04:44Z pjb: for sure, it's not tempest protected. He can trust it, but you wouldn't do crypto on it, without isolating it well. 2015-07-14T21:04:49Z Bike: i can't tell where he says what kind of transistors he's using. 2015-07-14T21:05:48Z whartung: it's mentioned, they're pretty generic "raido shack, 15/$1" transistors 2015-07-14T21:06:06Z pjb: http://www.megaprocessor.com/VitalStatistics.html 2015-07-14T21:06:13Z pjb: 500 kg! :-) 2015-07-14T21:06:17Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T21:06:36Z Bike: just wondering if it's still mosfets 2015-07-14T21:07:21Z pjb: You can also do logic with diodes instead of processors. I would go with diodes, since 1- they're cheaper, 2- you can use leds in place. 2015-07-14T21:07:54Z goglosh: damn I can't (read-line) in slime 2015-07-14T21:07:58Z aeth: hmm, ok. so Lisp FPGA is possible. Would it be faster than an historic lispm? Than a raspberry pi? 2015-07-14T21:07:59Z goglosh: it just skips it 2015-07-14T21:08:01Z goglosh: any ideas? 2015-07-14T21:08:07Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-14T21:08:41Z Bike: normally at this point i'd suggest aeth buy a virtex and check it out, but xilinx's tools are horrifying and i can't recommend their use in good conscience 2015-07-14T21:08:53Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:08:54Z Bike: goglosh: Skips it how? 2015-07-14T21:09:34Z Bike: does (with-input-from-string (s "foo") (read-line s)) still work, bla bla 2015-07-14T21:09:35Z goglosh: I type (read-line)<RET> and returns "" 2015-07-14T21:09:38Z contrapunctus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-07-14T21:09:49Z goglosh: I type (read-line)foo and returns "foo" 2015-07-14T21:09:59Z goglosh: leme see 2015-07-14T21:10:17Z Bike: weird. maybe there's an extra newline weaseling its way in. 2015-07-14T21:10:26Z goglosh: maybe 2015-07-14T21:10:29Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:10:33Z mlrutherford left #lisp 2015-07-14T21:10:36Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:11:03Z Bike: aeth: "speed of a processor" is kinda incoherent at the best of times, but it would probably be faster than a lispm, and for an rpi depends on the pi and the fpga. it would certainly be fast enough to mess with, which is why you'd want it 2015-07-14T21:11:23Z whartung: if you wanted to persue an FPGA, I think it would be more interesting to do a software based simulator first. 2015-07-14T21:11:33Z Bike: probably prudent. 2015-07-14T21:11:50Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:12:23Z pjb: check http://www.frank-buss.de/lispcpu/ 2015-07-14T21:12:43Z whartung: I wrote a 6502 simulator, and the accompanying assembler -- that was fun. "is this a bug in my simulator, or the assembler". It's interesting work when you can't trust anything lol 2015-07-14T21:13:52Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T21:13:54Z pjb: But you can't beat the coolness of https://www.visual65.com/. 2015-07-14T21:14:01Z goglosh: Bike: yeah there is a (single) extra newline when I do press RET... any idea how I can get rid of that? 2015-07-14T21:14:01Z sebbee: are defun's from files that I (load "filepath") forever inside my clisp 2015-07-14T21:14:04Z whartung: oh yea 2015-07-14T21:14:06Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:14:13Z whartung: no sebbee 2015-07-14T21:14:14Z pjb: Perhaps one day we will be able to do a 3D scan of a lisp machine and convert it into an emulator? 2015-07-14T21:14:24Z whartung: you can just restart clisp 2015-07-14T21:14:29Z aeth: Would porting e.g. sbcl be possible or would a new Common Lisp be necessary? 2015-07-14T21:14:35Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: bugfix) 2015-07-14T21:14:40Z Bike: i don't think you understand what an fpga is 2015-07-14T21:14:47Z whartung: you can make them permanent by dumping a new image and booting from that (I think…pretty sure you can do that) 2015-07-14T21:14:48Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:14:49Z pjb: Sorry, I meant http://www.visual6502.org/ above. 2015-07-14T21:15:02Z Bike: you could program an fpga to act as some architecture sbcl (and infrastructure like an OS) already runs on 2015-07-14T21:15:27Z aeth: Bike: you put algorithms in the FPGA so e.g. parts of a Lisp could be sped up? 2015-07-14T21:15:46Z whartung: yes aeth 2015-07-14T21:15:59Z aeth: I know FPGAs were used briefly in Bitcoin mining between GPUs and ASICs. 2015-07-14T21:16:10Z Bike: I mean, that's adding instructions to the isa, assuming you have the fpga acting as a cpu. 2015-07-14T21:16:11Z aeth: I know a bit about FPGAs, but I am not a hardware person 2015-07-14T21:16:13Z whartung: GC barriers, primitive tagging, stuff like that 2015-07-14T21:16:46Z Bike: or you could do like a professor i had once did and make stuff like binary search a hardware instruction, but i can't recommend it 2015-07-14T21:16:56Z aeth: right so you take a simple architecture and expand it with Lisp specific stuff or something? 2015-07-14T21:17:03Z Bike: sure. 2015-07-14T21:17:07Z whartung: something as simple as creating a CONS cell is a primitive, native concept to the CPU. 2015-07-14T21:17:50Z Bike: memory barriers would probably be a good place to start. i don't know how good an idea it would be to fix instructions for any kind of allocation, even stack instructions go unused sometimes 2015-07-14T21:18:03Z whartung: could always siloconize the CLISP byte code 2015-07-14T21:18:56Z Bike: if you want a free isa to start with you could look at risc-v or something, dunno how great it is 2015-07-14T21:19:33Z pjb: The cool thing you can do is to implement the garbage collector in silicium and the type and bound checking. 2015-07-14T21:19:40Z pjb: So you run as fast as C on Intel. 2015-07-14T21:19:55Z pjb: faster since you don't call free. 2015-07-14T21:19:58Z Bike: x86 has an array bound check instruction, i don't think anyone uses it 2015-07-14T21:20:06Z yati quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T21:20:11Z pjb: because it's not done in parallel. 2015-07-14T21:20:22Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-14T21:20:26Z aeth: pjb: So mix an FPGA and a regular CPU, but offload some of the Lisp stuff to the FPGA? 2015-07-14T21:20:35Z pjb: (or wasn't. With pipelined processor it can be). 2015-07-14T21:20:39Z pjb: aeth: possibly. 2015-07-14T21:20:44Z Bike: that seems kind of different. 2015-07-14T21:20:51Z Bike: a gc coprocessor... i wonder how much sense that even makes 2015-07-14T21:20:58Z aeth: Would that be a speed up, though? 2015-07-14T21:21:09Z pjb: With a 36-bit data bus, 32-bit + 4 for tags, or 72 bit, 64 + 8 for tags. 2015-07-14T21:21:59Z pjb: It does: https://www.google.fr/search?q=hardware+garbage+collection 2015-07-14T21:22:14Z whartung: SPARC has (or at least had) native support for tagged data. 2015-07-14T21:22:29Z whartung: Obj-C is tagging data now. 2015-07-14T21:22:36Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T21:22:41Z pjb: Yes, with @42 :-) 2015-07-14T21:22:56Z aeth: It'd be kind of funny if #lispgames took off and in 5 years gamers buy FPGAs to speed up their games' Lisp. 2015-07-14T21:23:09Z pjb: Apple really botched Objective-C, they could have made it something great. 2015-07-14T21:23:10Z aeth: A GPU, a CPU, and a LPU 2015-07-14T21:23:22Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:24:22Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:24:30Z sebbee: pjb: drakma working without further ado 2015-07-14T21:24:33Z sebbee: awesome! 2015-07-14T21:25:58Z p_l: I think a cpu with alpha-style PALcode giving you more direct control over model-specific tlb/mmu details would be better tha coprocessor as GC - because you'd be free to tinker with GC 2015-07-14T21:26:50Z p_l: n.b. LispMs don't do HC in hw either - they had a tailored mmu whose data was snooped by GC 2015-07-14T21:26:51Z pjb: The idea of hardware GC is that you would spend 0 second on it. As long as there is enough memory, you could allocate some immediate, without any wait. 2015-07-14T21:27:13Z bigboy joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:28:09Z bigboy: hello is anyone there 2015-07-14T21:28:25Z whartung: but, as long as there's enough memory, allocating out of GC is already simply bumping up a pointer -- can't get much cheaper than that. It's when you need to GC that it all gets hinky. 2015-07-14T21:29:16Z whartung: if (addr + amtToAllioc < barrier) { oldAddr = addr; addr += amtToAlloc; } 2015-07-14T21:29:26Z whartung: return oldAddr 2015-07-14T21:29:46Z Bike: is first fit actually what lisps use? 2015-07-14T21:30:59Z bigboy: Does anyone here use slime via the emacs 24 package interface 2015-07-14T21:31:32Z whartung: talkig about modern GCs Bike... 2015-07-14T21:31:57Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:32:07Z p_l: Bike: nursery is usually "just increment a pointer" afaik in most generational setups 2015-07-14T21:32:37Z Bike: didn't know that. 2015-07-14T21:32:43Z p_l: sometimes allocation has bits of GC action intertwined of course 2015-07-14T21:33:04Z whartung: I wrote a curmmy GC once, that's all I did lol 2015-07-14T21:33:19Z whartung: *crummy 2015-07-14T21:33:21Z Bike: i've been looking at mps again, i know its allocations are basically increments but haven't looked too far into the code. 2015-07-14T21:33:24Z lisper29` left #lisp 2015-07-14T21:33:26Z eudoxia: i know how to get Swank to give me the source location where a function definition begins, but is there a way to get it to find the whole definition string? from beginning to end? 2015-07-14T21:33:42Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T21:34:07Z Bike: it might not exist as a string, and i don't think slime keeps the defining forms 2015-07-14T21:34:33Z pjb: Use forward-sexp from the source location? 2015-07-14T21:35:44Z antoszka: bigboy: I usually install SLIME via quicklisp's 'quicklisp-slime-helper' package. 2015-07-14T21:35:45Z eudoxia: pjb: i need to do this entirely from the CL side 2015-07-14T21:35:49Z eudoxia: as in, from a Swank client 2015-07-14T21:35:49Z whartung: that's what I wanted to know. As I understood it, the original LispM's (at least Genera) a) used a versioned file system, and b) kept pointers to source code in the compiled code..always curious how that all worked 2015-07-14T21:35:56Z antoszka: bigboy: helps keep it in sync with swank. 2015-07-14T21:36:20Z Bike: Yes, I've been wondering about hwo lisps link again lately. I think I should dive into SBCL FASLs again, i think the devs mentioned wanting to rewrite it anyway. 2015-07-14T21:36:45Z Shinmera: eudoxia: I did some work for that in dissect 2015-07-14T21:36:49Z pjb: eudoxia: perhaps you want ibcl? 2015-07-14T21:36:55Z pjb: Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 2015-07-14T21:36:55Z bigboy: antoszka: thanks 2015-07-14T21:37:06Z Shinmera: eudoxia: It's not nice, efficient, or well-separated code though, so.. good luck tearing that apart. 2015-07-14T21:37:13Z scymtym: mood: if i understand correctly, you want something like (esrap:defrule qs (or (and #\' qs #\') (* (not #\')))) (esrap:parse 'qs "'''bla'''") => ("'" ("'" ("'" (#\b #\l #\a) "'") "'") "'")? 2015-07-14T21:37:14Z pjb: eudoxia: ie, the sexp, not the text? 2015-07-14T21:37:31Z eudoxia: pjb: no, no, i want the *text*. 2015-07-14T21:37:33Z pjb: eudoxia: otherwise it's possible to use swank to RPC from CL to emacs. 2015-07-14T21:37:42Z Bike: eudoxia: maybe you can (setf (file-position source) ...) and just READ from there? 2015-07-14T21:37:52Z eudoxia: Bike: that's actually what i'm trying now 2015-07-14T21:38:21Z eudoxia: well, something like that, since setf file position doesn't work 2015-07-14T21:38:47Z pjb: (file-position source new-pos) 2015-07-14T21:38:51Z pjb: clhs file-position 2015-07-14T21:38:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_p.htm 2015-07-14T21:38:58Z Bike: sorry, i haven't used file-position before. 2015-07-14T21:39:30Z anks joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:39:33Z eudoxia: wow it actually worked 2015-07-14T21:39:49Z Bike: glory be. 2015-07-14T21:40:18Z Bike: it probably won't work in general. like if there's a reader macro defined earlier, i dunno. 2015-07-14T21:40:18Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:40:50Z eudoxia: Bike: right, i think it'd fail if there was a cl-annot annotation 2015-07-14T21:41:57Z whartung: I stumbled across that the other day -- cl-annot…and it brought up a question 2015-07-14T21:42:14Z whartung: how do you macroexpand a reader macro? 2015-07-14T21:42:21Z pjb: you read it. 2015-07-14T21:42:26Z whartung: I guess you ca =n just read it 2015-07-14T21:42:29Z whartung: yea 2015-07-14T21:42:35Z pjb: (read) RET #\a RET --> #\a 2015-07-14T21:42:42Z whartung: (soryy -- typing one hsnded here) 2015-07-14T21:42:45Z pjb: Well, you have to quote it too. 2015-07-14T21:42:51Z slyrus: is there a #asdf yet? 2015-07-14T21:45:27Z pjb: for example, compare the output of (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list (with-input-from-string (in "'#P\"/tmp/\"") (read in))) with (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list (with-input-from-string (in "'#'F") (read in))) 2015-07-14T21:45:49Z eudoxia: hmmm 2015-07-14T21:46:06Z pjb: This shows that #'F reads as (function f), while #P"/tmp/" reads as the _result_ of (pathname "/tmp/"). 2015-07-14T21:46:06Z eudoxia: i tried my function on a function that's preceded by an @export macro, yep, it only reads the macro 2015-07-14T21:46:12Z eudoxia: @export reader macro* 2015-07-14T21:46:33Z pjb: Yep :-) 2015-07-14T21:47:02Z pjb: A better algo on noting the file-positions could give the right position. 2015-07-14T21:47:08Z eudoxia: i suppose the solution would be "read until the resulting string is longer than Swank's snippet" 2015-07-14T21:47:31Z eudoxia: but that's horrifying 2015-07-14T21:49:13Z eudoxia: oh well, i'll solve this tomorrow 2015-07-14T21:49:17Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-14T21:49:29Z vhost- quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3-dev) 2015-07-14T21:49:37Z vhost- joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:49:37Z vhost- quit (Changing host) 2015-07-14T21:49:37Z vhost- joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:50:56Z anks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-14T21:53:14Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-14T21:54:06Z smull quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-14T21:55:03Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-14T21:56:28Z dmh: sebbee: did you ever get it working on windows 2015-07-14T21:56:35Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-14T21:57:21Z sebbee: what do you mean 2015-07-14T21:57:33Z dmh: quicklisp 'ql:' workign in slime 2015-07-14T21:57:40Z sebbee: yea 2015-07-14T21:57:59Z dmh: i just tried moving my stuff to a new machine and it wont load even with explicit path to my clisprc 2015-07-14T21:58:04Z dmh: did you just copy it to another dir? 2015-07-14T21:58:07Z sebbee: i did the idiot way 2015-07-14T21:58:10Z sebbee: yes exactly that :D 2015-07-14T21:58:17Z dmh: where'd you stick it 2015-07-14T21:58:32Z dmh: i was trying fancy merge-pathnames crap with no luck haha 2015-07-14T21:59:15Z sebbee: c:/users/sbe/appdata/roaming/hereyoushouldputfile 2015-07-14T21:59:16Z pjb: why? 2015-07-14T21:59:23Z pjb: merge-pathnames works nicely. 2015-07-14T21:59:32Z dmh: yea, and it loads the file and ql: still doesnt work :| 2015-07-14T21:59:38Z pjb: sebbee: be careful, CL distinguishes file pathnames from directory pathnames. 2015-07-14T21:59:54Z pjb: if hereyoushouldputfile is a directory, then you need to show it with a final / 2015-07-14T21:59:59Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T22:00:01Z dmh: ok well i gave quicklisp a custom directory too so maybe something got messed up 2015-07-14T22:00:23Z pjb: compare: (pathname-name "c:/users/sbe/appdata/roaming/hereyoushouldputfile") with (pathname-name "c:/users/sbe/appdata/roaming/hereyoushouldputfile/") and 2015-07-14T22:00:34Z pjb: compare: (pathname-directory "c:/users/sbe/appdata/roaming/hereyoushouldputfile") with (pathname-directory "c:/users/sbe/appdata/roaming/hereyoushouldputfile/") 2015-07-14T22:00:36Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T22:01:02Z dmh: ugh i copied and fixed the path in .clisprc.lisp and it works 2015-07-14T22:01:07Z Ettore quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T22:01:26Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:01:34Z dmh: need to write that one down so i dont forget it, thx 2015-07-14T22:03:42Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-14T22:05:04Z vhost- quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3-dev) 2015-07-14T22:06:10Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-14T22:06:28Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:07:44Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:07:58Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:08:30Z vhost- joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:11:19Z dmh: i tried to repeat the steps and verified its loading .clisprc.lisp but now it's not working 2015-07-14T22:11:23Z dmh: what a waste of time 2015-07-14T22:13:49Z pjb: is your environment variable set correctly? (did you write the setenv in ~/.emacs?) 2015-07-14T22:14:46Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T22:15:21Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:15:37Z dmh: what i did was force quicklisp to install in appdata 2015-07-14T22:16:14Z bigboy quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-14T22:16:25Z dmh: i've tried several things, let me sort out 2015-07-14T22:16:43Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-14T22:17:55Z dmh: wait, i forget, what exactly were you suggesting to setenv? 2015-07-14T22:18:35Z dmh: figured it out, the generated .clisprc.lisp will not have right path :( 2015-07-14T22:18:42Z dmh: so simply copying it doesnt work 2015-07-14T22:19:11Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-14T22:24:21Z dmh: i had to change to "(merge-pathnames "quicklisp\\setup.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname))" and it worked after that :) 2015-07-14T22:24:36Z dmh: didnt seem to take a custom :path into account during ql install 2015-07-14T22:26:17Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T22:26:47Z smull joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:27:08Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:27:57Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-14T22:28:55Z salv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T22:30:18Z RussT1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-14T22:30:59Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:31:42Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:32:05Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-14T22:34:18Z dmh: here are the steps i took, I still had to edit if I didnt force install in appdata http://www.dexterhaslem.com/?p=40 2015-07-14T22:35:43Z dmh: i normally use ccl but not sure if i cba to try changing anything now :D 2015-07-14T22:36:41Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T22:36:44Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:37:05Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:37:54Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-14T22:38:10Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-14T22:42:25Z sebbee: dmh: still not working 2015-07-14T22:42:36Z dmh: nah, got it working 2015-07-14T22:42:52Z dmh: or wait what 2015-07-14T22:42:58Z sebbee: what what 2015-07-14T22:43:05Z dmh: were you asking me? 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Is there a means to force the output 2015-07-15T02:10:04Z keen__________19 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T02:11:33Z David36 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T02:14:12Z keen__________18 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T02:17:32Z cheryllium quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 39.0/20150630154324]) 2015-07-15T02:18:24Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-15T02:19:44Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-07-15T02:20:50Z akkad: how does one load a pkgdcl.lisp the properway? 2015-07-15T02:21:17Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-15T02:21:56Z Xach: akkad: you can load lisp files with LOAD. 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djh radioninja_work constantinexvi ft schoppenhauer dtw roscoe_tw whartung kjeldahl Bike ferada 2015-07-15T04:13:11Z names: SAL9000 mingvs Tordek hyoyoung ozzloy capitaomorte jtz brucem vlnx seg newcup crichter ski christoph_debian joshe s1n4 TeMPOraL alex6407 xristos taij33n |3b| izabera PinealGlandOptic nicdev K1rk cross brandonz housel redline6561 sigjuice thomas russell-- antoszka wolf_mozart swflint_away daimrod eMBee tokik yauz birk rvirding rotty1 bcoburn tmh_ brent80_plow zbigniew tokenrove ck_ The_third_man zickzackv motumla dim edran sellout dsp_ RazWelles diginet 2015-07-15T04:13:11Z names: musegarden clarkema _death jackdaniel samebchase nisstyre erg cibs tomaw SHODAN failproofshark vsync wyan ineiros cmbntr finnrobi_ klltkr_ jayne oconnore 2015-07-15T04:24:05Z ThePhoeron_ is now known as ThePhoeron 2015-07-15T04:36:12Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-15T04:36:20Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-15T04:36:36Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T04:38:17Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-15T04:39:22Z White__Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-15T04:39:24Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T04:42:03Z beach: nyef: Have you compiled Clasp yet? 2015-07-15T04:42:30Z nyef: Had to kill the build while it was dealing with Cleavir, for time reasons. 2015-07-15T04:42:37Z nyef: But bclasp works. 2015-07-15T04:42:48Z nyef: And I should be able to try again tomorrow or Thursday. 2015-07-15T04:42:54Z beach: OK. 2015-07-15T04:42:58Z beach: nyef: I don't think it is a good use of my time at this point to try to speed up the compilation time of Cleavir. 2015-07-15T04:43:05Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-15T04:43:31Z nyef: Let me guess... Far better to try and put together a more complete system on your side? 2015-07-15T04:43:38Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-15T04:43:48Z beach: And work on optimizations and source tracking. 2015-07-15T04:44:34Z nyef: Mmm. I suspect that there's some fairly dreadfully low-hanging fruit with bclasp anyway. 2015-07-15T04:44:56Z beach: Sounds right. 2015-07-15T04:45:26Z nyef: Not even on the level of escape analysis. Just physical environment analysis would probably do a world of good. 2015-07-15T04:45:54Z beach: What do you mean by "physical environment analysis"? 2015-07-15T04:46:37Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-15T04:46:50Z nyef: The bit that determines if a variable needs to be closed over, and if it needs a full value-cell or if it can be closed over by value. 2015-07-15T04:47:32Z beach: I see, yes. 2015-07-15T04:48:07Z loke: Who is the maintainer of bordeaux-threads? 2015-07-15T04:48:08Z nyef: Combined with escape analysis and dynamic-extent gives you the ability to use a direct stack frame reference instead of a value-cell, and so on. 2015-07-15T04:48:26Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-15T04:48:53Z nyef: But the big thing is killing the heap-allocated lexical environments. 2015-07-15T04:49:16Z beach: nyef: But are there many cases of closed-over variables in typical programs? I wouldn't think so. 2015-07-15T04:49:49Z nyef: Anywhere you have a FLET, LABELS, or LAMBDA, you are potentially closing over variables. 2015-07-15T04:50:00Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-15T04:50:09Z nyef: The problem with Clasp is that it treats EVERY variable as being potentially closed-over. 2015-07-15T04:50:26Z beach: Not cclasp. 2015-07-15T04:50:30Z nyef: Once you know that a variable isn't closed-over, you can stack-allocate it. 2015-07-15T04:50:32Z beach: Maybe bclasp does. 2015-07-15T04:50:41Z nyef: Sure, but it takes forever to get to cclasp. 2015-07-15T04:51:14Z beach: Right. 2015-07-15T04:51:26Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-15T04:52:07Z loke: Speaking of closed-over variables 2015-07-15T04:52:38Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-15T04:53:17Z loke: A bug that bit me hard yesterday was me creating threads in a LOOP, passing in the value of a loop variable in the thread creation. Obviously that closed over the loop variable but the variable is then modified in the next iteration of the loop. This created a race condition with a very hard-to-track-down bug. 2015-07-15T04:53:47Z nyef: loke: And the classic solution is to rebind your iteration variables before you close over them. 2015-07-15T04:53:56Z loke: nyef: Which is how I solved it :-) 2015-07-15T04:54:06Z loke: nyef: The tricky part was finding it. 2015-07-15T04:54:49Z beach: nyef: Is it worthwhile, though, to speed up bclasp if it is going to be used only for bootstrapping cclasp? 2015-07-15T04:54:49Z nyef: And I get the distinct impression that physical environment analysis can be done as a code-walker pass, producing annotations as bound declarations. Tie that into the compile-time environment representation, and it becomes a lot easier to switch to using a local variable in the stack frame than digging through a runtime environment structure. 2015-07-15T04:55:33Z beach: So doing it basically on source code? 2015-07-15T04:55:37Z nyef: Yes! It's too slow to even debug right now. 2015-07-15T04:55:40Z nyef: Sure. 2015-07-15T04:55:46Z nyef: There's no IR with the bclasp compiler. 2015-07-15T04:55:56Z beach: Yes, I see. 2015-07-15T04:56:09Z nyef: So it's either introduce an IR or treat the Lisp code itself as IR. 2015-07-15T04:57:29Z beach: In my opinion, of course, it would be a lot better to bootstrap cclasp on a Common Lisp implementation and get rid of bclasp altogether. But I don't think the world is ready for such a radical move. I need to show that it works on SICL first. 2015-07-15T04:57:47Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T04:58:30Z nyef: Mmm. Part of the overall angle that Clasp, and ECL before it, was working was that it can be bootstrapped given a C compiler, no host CL required. 2015-07-15T04:59:04Z beach: Maybe that's true for ECL, but I don't think that's a goal with Clasp. 2015-07-15T04:59:27Z Bike: it'd be C++, for one. i think the main goal was basically the interoperability bizniz 2015-07-15T04:59:41Z beach: Yeah. 2015-07-15T05:00:33Z beach: But drmeister thinks (and he may be right) that the current bootstrapping method is required because he needs C++ inetroperation during bootstrapping so that he can operate the LLVM that way. 2015-07-15T05:00:35Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-15T05:03:51Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-15T05:04:09Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-15T05:04:24Z nyef: Okay, it's gone 1 AM, and I have work to deal with in the morning. 2015-07-15T05:04:52Z nyef: G'night. 2015-07-15T05:05:14Z beach: 'night nyef. 2015-07-15T05:08:17Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 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get-output-stream-string 2015-07-15T07:02:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_ou.htm 2015-07-15T07:03:14Z dmitigr: hello, world 2015-07-15T07:03:43Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:04:04Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:04:14Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:04:20Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-15T07:05:41Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:06:02Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:06:06Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:07:36Z dmitigr: are there are plans to publish a new version of Common Lisp standard? 2015-07-15T07:08:08Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:08:15Z loke: aeth: several languages are 2015-07-15T07:08:19Z loke: aeth: like php 2015-07-15T07:08:23Z loke: and visualbasic 2015-07-15T07:13:14Z Guthur: dmitigr: very very unlikely 2015-07-15T07:14:23Z Guthur: It takes a lot of energy to undertake such a task and there really doesn't seem to enough of it acheive that critical mass 2015-07-15T07:15:21Z Guthur: it's actually not immediately obvious what it would achieve 2015-07-15T07:16:13Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:18:07Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T07:18:18Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T07:18:29Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:19:27Z dmitigr: Guthur: I see. This is sadly, since I think that renewing a standard migth attract more new users to the CL to avoid stagnation. 2015-07-15T07:19:36Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:19:48Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:20:01Z ahungry: What do you guys think of this? Very early prototype of an idea I just had 2015-07-15T07:20:03Z ahungry: http://sluglisp.ahungry.com/#/saved/package/glyphs 2015-07-15T07:20:13Z ahungry: a web gui for browsing available quicklisp packages 2015-07-15T07:20:23Z ahungry: plan to make it available in quicklisp also so users can run it on localhost vs using my server 2015-07-15T07:20:49Z ahungry: right now it only works for packages hosted via github (luckily thats around 75% of them) 2015-07-15T07:21:55Z keen__________20 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T07:21:56Z pocket quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T07:22:01Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:22:06Z H4ns: dmitigr: that is not how standards work. they are not put into existence to attract users. rather, they are put in by interested parties when a language has many users, to avoid fragmentation. 2015-07-15T07:22:13Z thomas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T07:22:23Z thomas joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:23:28Z keen__________20 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:26:01Z dmitigr: H4ns: yes, I agree. But look at C++ populatiry after C++11/14 was published, and C++17 comming soon. It's grow very much. I think that for many young developers Common Lisp might looks like old language, because even C moved to C11. 2015-07-15T07:26:25Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:27:05Z loke: dmitigr: Wait, are you saying that C++ is now used in _more_ areas than it had previously been? 2015-07-15T07:27:27Z H4ns: dmitigr: common lisp _is_ an old language, and it does not have enough users to warrant a standardization effort. 2015-07-15T07:28:34Z H4ns: dmitigr: c++ is a completely different beast. it has a huge user base and many many applications in production. a large portion of the software industry is sold on c++. there is enough money in it to update the standard regularly. 2015-07-15T07:29:02Z dmitigr: loke: yes, it is. For example, there are many web frameworks written in C++11/14 last years. 2015-07-15T07:29:12Z marvi_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:29:40Z loke: dmitigr: Yes, and there have been many written for CL as well. The question is how many of those are actually used to build real applications. 2015-07-15T07:29:57Z tkd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:30:18Z Shinmera: ahungry: check out staple-server 2015-07-15T07:30:29Z nopf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:30:55Z nopf joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:31:20Z Shinmera: ahungry: Though I don't understand whether you mean your thing to be for all ql systems regardless of whether they're loaded or not, or if it's supposed to be dynamic 2015-07-15T07:31:33Z dmitigr: H4ns: I see of course. But /I/ belive that renewing a standard might be a chance to achive some new critical mass for the future of Common Lisp. 2015-07-15T07:31:45Z Shinmera: Have fun with that belief then 2015-07-15T07:32:06Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:32:57Z dmitigr: loke: CL are much better suited for web development rather that C++. But what good web tools for CL except Hunchentoot? WebLocks? Sorry, it sucks. Sorry, but I think so. 2015-07-15T07:33:25Z dmitigr: loke: but in C++ there are no good web frameworks also :-) 2015-07-15T07:33:52Z H4ns: dmitigr: so you're not looking for a "standard", but for good libraries 2015-07-15T07:33:55Z Shinmera: "I haven't really looked around and the only thing I saw sucked, so I'm going to assume everything sucks and there's nothing else" 2015-07-15T07:34:08Z ahungry: Shinmera: the idea is that its for exploring the eco system 2015-07-15T07:34:20Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-15T07:34:24Z loke: dmitigr: I wrote a lot of it myself. The amount of code needed isn't that great, and it all compes pretty naturally in CL. In fact, everything that Rails (for example) does, I have implemented in... (let see...) a few hundred lines of code 2015-07-15T07:34:25Z ahungry: finding new libraries to play with that arent too outdated etc 2015-07-15T07:34:26Z Shinmera: ahungry: So your QL distributed version would be an ahead of time compiled set of HTML files? 2015-07-15T07:34:50Z loke: dmitigr: If you don't believe me you're welcome to look at the code once it'sopen sourced (should be soon) 2015-07-15T07:35:09Z fe[nl]ix: dmitigr: you may believe whatever you like. unless you can come up with a few €1e6 you may also stop talking 2015-07-15T07:35:11Z dmitigr: H4ns: actually I very like Ediware. It seems to be very good quality stuff. But I want a future for such excellent language as Common Lisp. So I think we need to renew standard. 2015-07-15T07:35:32Z Shinmera: dmitigr: again. Have fun with that. 2015-07-15T07:35:36Z loke: dmitigr: What is it that you would like to see updated then? 2015-07-15T07:35:36Z H4ns: dmitigr: *shrug* 2015-07-15T07:35:39Z ahungry: I think I'll end up having rate limited stats (github stars/fork stats etc.) cached in the repo itself and renewed periodically (and monthly for quicklisp users) 2015-07-15T07:35:45Z dmitigr: fe[nl]ix: "you may believe whatever you like" this is not new phrase to me, so sorry. 2015-07-15T07:35:58Z ahungry: then the readme file will always be a fresh drakma:http-request, so users always see the newest readme/project page when clicking the project in sidebar 2015-07-15T07:35:58Z loke: dmitigr: There are in fact very few things that needs a standards update. 99% of what peole want is implementable/available as libraries. 2015-07-15T07:36:10Z Shinmera: ahungry: Quickdocs already sort of fills your niche. It'd be better imo to add a project index page to it than make something completely independent. 2015-07-15T07:37:36Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:37:36Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-07-15T07:37:36Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:38:12Z ahungry: Ah I will have to look through it then, I was thinking of adding more of the tagging/popularity features on this so we can see what projects in each category are newest 2015-07-15T07:38:29Z ahungry: pulling the readmes was just trivial and let me get the idea out there quickly 2015-07-15T07:38:51Z ahungry: annyways, hittin the sack, night 2015-07-15T07:39:22Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:39:33Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:39:50Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:41:43Z nml quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:43:02Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:43:22Z nml joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:44:04Z dmitigr: loke: I see and I believe you. I know that in CL its relatively easy to write Rails-like framework. And I understand that the everything in Common Lisp may be implemented as library. (e.g. CLOS.) My point for renewing standard only for making Common Lisp looks like a "modern" language, with e.g. threads and regexps described in standard. This might help to attract /new/ users to Common Lisp. 2015-07-15T07:44:46Z fe[nl]ix: new users don't care about standards 2015-07-15T07:45:36Z dmitigr: fe[nl]ix: yeah, and they prefer to use e.g. usockets to make cross-impl. stuff. :-) 2015-07-15T07:45:59Z loke: And cl-ppcre is both good and not needing any new standard. It's right there and works on every single CL implementation out there. 2015-07-15T07:46:49Z fe[nl]ix: dmitigr: new users don't have preferences because they don't know the language and libraries 2015-07-15T07:46:53Z dmitigr: loke: cl-ppcre are good candidate to include to the standard then :-) 2015-07-15T07:47:04Z loke: dmitigr: What benefit would it have? 2015-07-15T07:47:23Z loke: Are people not using cl-ppcre right now because it's not in the spec? 2015-07-15T07:47:27Z dmitigr: loke: I already say what benefit in /my/ opinion. 2015-07-15T07:47:45Z loke: dmitigr: I think you'll find lots of disagreement. 2015-07-15T07:47:55Z Shinmera thinks he's going to insane from the constant fucking repetitive bullshit talk about "WE NEEDS A NEW STANDARD" every god damn second week 2015-07-15T07:47:58Z dmitigr: loke: I see :-) 2015-07-15T07:48:19Z Shinmera: Make cool shit in lisp or shut up 2015-07-15T07:48:50Z dmitigr: loke: and I see that renewing CL standard is a sensitive subject. 2015-07-15T07:48:55Z loke: Is Stelian Ionescu ever on #lisp? 2015-07-15T07:49:02Z Shinmera: loke: he's fe[nl]ix 2015-07-15T07:49:03Z fe[nl]ix has set mode +b *!~user@*.netbynet.ru 2015-07-15T07:49:03Z dmitigr [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (dmitigr) 2015-07-15T07:49:11Z loke: really? 2015-07-15T07:49:15Z Shinmera: Yes. 2015-07-15T07:49:24Z loke: fenlix: so you are the maintainer of bordeaux-threads? 2015-07-15T07:49:29Z fe[nl]ix: loke: g'day sir, how may I be of assistance ? 2015-07-15T07:50:07Z fe[nl]ix: loke: yes 2015-07-15T07:50:12Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T07:50:27Z loke: fenlix: ah. Would you be willing to accept some new stuff for it? 2015-07-15T07:50:49Z loke: There are two features that I have hacked around myself that I need, and having it part of bordeaux would be nice. 2015-07-15T07:50:49Z fe[nl]ix: it depends 2015-07-15T07:50:55Z dmh: does anyone know of some way to make a compilation take less RAM or somehow restrict it? 2015-07-15T07:51:03Z loke: 1) implementation of condition-broadcast 2015-07-15T07:51:08Z dmh: or would this vary wildly by implementation 2015-07-15T07:51:11Z loke: 2) Implementation of timeouts for notify-wait 2015-07-15T07:51:31Z Shinmera: dmh: It varies by implementation. 2015-07-15T07:51:40Z dmh: fark, thx 2015-07-15T07:51:40Z Shinmera: dmh: What makes you worried about RAM? 2015-07-15T07:51:56Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:52:01Z dmh: I'm trying to setup some very basic stuff on a constrained system and it's causing it to blow up bad 2015-07-15T07:52:09Z loke: fenlix: my timeouts for condition-wait works for SBCL, ABCL and CCL at the moment 2015-07-15T07:52:11Z dmh: quicklisp install took almost an hour 2015-07-15T07:52:22Z Shinmera: I hear CCL is less compilation intensive than SBCL, so maybe give that a shot 2015-07-15T07:52:26Z dmh: trying to use slime helper crash and burns, so was hoping for an easy out 2015-07-15T07:52:29Z dmh: I'm using CLISP 2015-07-15T07:52:38Z Shinmera: I don't know about that then. 2015-07-15T07:52:39Z dmh: this is on a MIPS processor, SBCL is horrendously outdated there 2015-07-15T07:52:41Z clog joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:52:48Z loke: dmh: CLISP is horribly slow 2015-07-15T07:52:54Z fe[nl]ix: loke: I'm willing, if you can get pkhuong to review the patches too, and add extensive tests 2015-07-15T07:52:59Z dmh: yea, I figured such 2015-07-15T07:53:04Z dmh: but I'm kind of stuck 2015-07-15T07:53:13Z fe[nl]ix: loke: despite being the maintainer, I'm not a threading expert 2015-07-15T07:53:20Z loke: fenlix: What are the minimum platforms that needs support? 2015-07-15T07:54:01Z loke: ECL just received the necessary primitives to do times condition-wait, so I'll implement that too soon. 2015-07-15T07:54:24Z fe[nl]ix: sbcl, ccl are the necessary ones 2015-07-15T07:54:31Z fe[nl]ix: allegro smp & lispworks would be nice 2015-07-15T07:54:32Z Shinmera: dmh: One way I'm seeing is running a faster VM system on a better machine, compiling everything there, and then copying it over to your constrained system. 2015-07-15T07:54:38Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:54:42Z Shinmera: dmh: But that seems a bit roundabout. 2015-07-15T07:54:50Z dmh: copying the FASL in place? 2015-07-15T07:54:52Z dmh: or whatever 2015-07-15T07:54:58Z Shinmera: Yeah. 2015-07-15T07:55:10Z dmh: that would be architecture dependant? 2015-07-15T07:55:10Z Shinmera: Just need to make sure you're compiling with the exact same version. 2015-07-15T07:55:10Z loke: fenlix: OK, I'll work on it over the forthcoming Hari Raya holidays 2015-07-15T07:55:20Z dmh: ignoring clisp bytecode 2015-07-15T07:55:35Z loke: fenlix: what's the best way to submit the patches? Pull request on your github project? 2015-07-15T07:55:38Z Shinmera: dmh: I don't know about clisp, but in general FASLs are platform or even compiler version dependant. 2015-07-15T07:55:52Z dmh: ah ok, good to know 2015-07-15T07:55:55Z dmh: might give that a shot 2015-07-15T07:56:02Z dmh: thanks 2015-07-15T07:56:07Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-15T07:56:15Z fe[nl]ix: loke: yes, just make sure you Cc some other people that can review the code 2015-07-15T07:56:25Z loke: fenlix: OK, thanks 2015-07-15T07:56:52Z loke: fenlix: do you think a platform-independent implementation of CAS would be a candidate for inclusion as well? 2015-07-15T07:57:34Z loke: (the CAS can be emulated using mutexes on platforms that don't have the underlying interface) 2015-07-15T07:57:42Z loke: I have that implementation ready too 2015-07-15T07:58:03Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:59:06Z fe[nl]ix: CAS is nice, but I'd like to have an overview of native support in the various implementations to see how we can wrap those primitives 2015-07-15T07:59:55Z loke: fenlix: My implementation does native CAS of SBCL and emulates on others. I could easily add support for native cas on ABCL as well, and I presume other platforms also have primitives for it. 2015-07-15T07:59:56Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-15T07:59:56Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-07-15T07:59:56Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:01:22Z fe[nl]ix: CAS for what operations ? 2015-07-15T08:01:47Z loke: fenlix: No special operations. It's just the underlying primitive. 2015-07-15T08:01:49Z fe[nl]ix: for what type of targets ? 2015-07-15T08:02:13Z loke: fenlix: any value. it's basically an object that can be CAS'ed (similar to the "atomic" in Clojure) 2015-07-15T08:03:03Z dmitrys99 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:03:25Z loke: The compatibility implementation simply uses EQ, if that's what you want to know. 2015-07-15T08:04:30Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:04:36Z fe[nl]ix: loke: not that easy. the purpose of a compatibility library is that a form must work on all implementations 2015-07-15T08:05:03Z dmitrys99: Hi, guys! I'm trying to start CCL on FreeBSD and run my file with option --load, but something goes wrong: CCL answers me 'File "--load" does not exist'. I tried full path to both ccl and my file with no success. Does anyone know what is wrong? 2015-07-15T08:05:23Z loke: fenlix: It does, since there is a fallback implementation. That said, I have only concluded that SBCL and ABCL have the necessary primitives to do a lockless CAS operation. I'm just assuming the others can too. 2015-07-15T08:07:48Z chelseaclinton joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:07:52Z chelseaclinton: heya 2015-07-15T08:08:59Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:09:03Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T08:09:13Z fe[nl]ix: loke: let's say that an implementation supports CAS with SVREF and others don't. how do you deal with that ? 2015-07-15T08:09:31Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T08:09:38Z loke: fenlix: I don't support that. The CAS'able value is wrapped in an opaque object 2015-07-15T08:10:05Z loke: So if the underlying implementation ONLY supports cas on svref, then its implementation have to contain a single-element vector 2015-07-15T08:10:41Z streptotrichosis quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-15T08:11:02Z fe[nl]ix: I need to see the implementation 2015-07-15T08:11:12Z Shinmera: loke: So basically like Java's Atomic* things? 2015-07-15T08:11:21Z loke: Shinmera: it's exactly like that 2015-07-15T08:12:57Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-15T08:17:05Z dmitrys99: I checked, it works well on Windows machine 2015-07-15T08:19:46Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T08:22:10Z dmitrys99: Sorry, my fault. The subsequent call (after loading I (load ...) another file) is incorrect. 2015-07-15T08:22:24Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T08:28:21Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T08:28:34Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:29:47Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-15T08:32:10Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T08:36:21Z sharkz_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-15T08:36:55Z chelseaclinton: getting an error on this function (cond ((= 2 3) #t) ((= 2 4) #t) (else 3)) 2015-07-15T08:37:09Z sharkz_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:37:17Z jdz: chelseaclinton: use T instead of ELSE 2015-07-15T08:37:38Z jdz: (and COND is not a function) 2015-07-15T08:37:54Z jdz: chelseaclinton: oh, and you probably want to go to #scheme 2015-07-15T08:38:25Z chelseaclinton: is there a clisp equivalent 2015-07-15T08:38:33Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:38:47Z jdz: Scheme's #t is just t in common lisp 2015-07-15T08:39:04Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T08:39:13Z jdz: so your above form in common lisp would be: (cond ((= 2 3) t) ((= 2 4) t) (t 3)) 2015-07-15T08:39:30Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:39:49Z chelseaclinton: Thank you so much 2015-07-15T08:40:20Z chelseaclinton: <jdz> (and COND is not a function), why can I call it then? sorry clnoob here 2015-07-15T08:41:27Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:41:37Z jdz: chelseaclinton: COND is a macro in CL, and macros are expanded before they are executed 2015-07-15T08:41:40Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:42:12Z jdz: chelseaclinton: try (macroexpand-1 '(cond ((= 2 3) t) ((= 2 4) t) (t 3))) 2015-07-15T08:42:17Z w37 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:42:25Z jdz: or macroexpand-all 2015-07-15T08:42:45Z Shinmera: macroexpand-all is not a standard function. 2015-07-15T08:43:06Z jdz: oh, right 2015-07-15T08:43:50Z jdz: C-c M-m on the form in SLIME :) 2015-07-15T08:45:14Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:45:14Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-07-15T08:45:15Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:45:23Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:46:04Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:49:12Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T08:49:17Z nml quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-15T08:52:05Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:52:21Z salva quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T08:56:25Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-15T08:57:32Z nml joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:00:26Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:00:30Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:02:11Z guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:02:48Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:05:03Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:05:11Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-15T09:05:41Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:06:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:07:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:07:29Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:08:43Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T09:10:52Z balle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T09:12:19Z guthur`: dmitigr: I'd just reiterate what was said early re new standard, it's not a standard that will bring new users but rather people making cool stuff and making it available for reuse 2015-07-15T09:12:36Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:13:10Z guthur`: there is only one thing that i can think of that I would like to see in CL and that is some generators 2015-07-15T09:13:36Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:13:39Z guthur`: LOOP is the only option, which is very unfortuate 2015-07-15T09:16:07Z ynchromeshs: guthur`: Why does "people making cool stuff and making it available for reuse" imply updating the language spec (i.e. forking the language)? Since it's CL, a library/package that implements the feature looks just like it's part of the language anyway, so what's the advantage? 2015-07-15T09:17:03Z balle joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:17:06Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:18:24Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:20:40Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:20:55Z jdz: ynchromeshs: because that's the only way to force stuff down people's throats 2015-07-15T09:21:23Z jdz: which has nothing to do with making cool stuff, really 2015-07-15T09:21:25Z ynchromeshs: OK, *apart* from the obvious advantges. 2015-07-15T09:22:14Z ynchromeshs: (Also, is my nick too long or something? It keeps coming up as "ynchromeshs"...) 2015-07-15T09:22:31Z guthur`: ynchromeshs: sorry i don't really follow, I was not saying it implied updating the spec 2015-07-15T09:23:05Z ynchromeshs: Sorry, you're right, you didn't say that. 2015-07-15T09:23:11Z guthur`: what i said was that dmitigr's goal of getting new users is better served by new software than by new standard 2015-07-15T09:23:24Z ynchromeshs: Ah right, yes, I agree. 2015-07-15T09:23:37Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:24:24Z guthur`: and yes according to irc your nick is ynchromeshs 2015-07-15T09:24:35Z guthur`: not sure if you meant it to be more than that 2015-07-15T09:24:43Z ircbrowse: the advantages of adding things to the language spec depends whether it's prescriptive or descriptive — ideally the latter 2015-07-15T09:25:52Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:26:24Z ircbrowse: if you're smarter than the whole community, maybe being prescriptive is better for them ;-) but that's rare 2015-07-15T09:27:09Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:27:11Z jdz: ircbrowse: i don't exactly understand what you're saying here. it seems to me that the whole Common Lisp spec is "prescriptive" 2015-07-15T09:28:19Z jdz: i.e., it describes how _conforming_ implementations must behave (with a bit of leeway in the form of "implementation dependent" behaviour) 2015-07-15T09:28:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T09:29:00Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:29:05Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:31:35Z salva joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:32:04Z ircbrowse: it was written to describe how people were basically using lisp at the time (interlisp, maclisp, etc.), give or take 2015-07-15T09:32:28Z ircbrowse: the prescriptive part is the "let's never change this again" part 2015-07-15T09:33:09Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:33:39Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-15T09:34:04Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:34:25Z ircbrowse: see kent's history of CL 2015-07-15T09:34:28Z ircbrowse: (“One problem was that Common Lisp was more descriptive than prescriptive. That is, if two implementation communities disagreed about how to solve a certain problem, CLTL was written in a way that sought to build a descriptive bridge between the two dialects in many cases rather than to force a choice that would bring the two into actual compatibility.”) 2015-07-15T09:34:40Z ircbrowse: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html 2015-07-15T09:34:53Z pjb: It's easy: estimate how much money it will cost to make a new standard, and launch a kickstarter for it. In any case, this is not the topic of #lisp. Try ##lisp or #kickstarter 2015-07-15T09:36:25Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:37:40Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T09:37:47Z ghard_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:38:43Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:41:05Z ghard_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-15T09:41:33Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:41:44Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:42:18Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:43:18Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T09:46:07Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:46:43Z guthur`: pjb: it might be a borrowing topic but the topic for #lisp is Common Lisp and a Standard for CL is about CL 2015-07-15T09:47:07Z guthur`: borrowing/boring 2015-07-15T09:47:54Z pjb: The only standard for Common Lisp is the ANSI Common Lisp standard. Anything else won't be Common Lisp. 2015-07-15T09:48:02Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:48:55Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:50:36Z chelseaclinton quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-15T09:53:18Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:53:36Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:54:14Z pocket quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-07-15T09:54:51Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:55:11Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:55:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:55:17Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:56:45Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T09:56:58Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:57:03Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:57:56Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T09:58:09Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-15T09:59:49Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:00:38Z frkout quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T10:00:48Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:08:16Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:14:15Z nml quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-15T10:16:19Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:17:53Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-15T10:18:16Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T10:18:47Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T10:20:00Z dmitrys99 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T10:22:28Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T10:26:38Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T10:27:06Z alimiracle joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:27:16Z alimiracle: hi lisp users 2015-07-15T10:27:26Z alimiracle: lisp is ded? 2015-07-15T10:28:04Z fe[nl]ix: no, it's alive, it's alive 2015-07-15T10:28:05Z fe[nl]ix: mwahahaha 2015-07-15T10:28:41Z antoszka: not dead, just smells funny. 2015-07-15T10:29:31Z alimiracle: I cant find new Programs in lisp 2015-07-15T10:29:48Z alimiracle: this mene lisp is ded 2015-07-15T10:30:32Z p_l: there are new programs in lisp, common lisp even. Just not everyone is making them for others to use 2015-07-15T10:31:22Z alimiracle: you se new? lol 2015-07-15T10:31:34Z jackdaniel: I have that strange feeling, that it's someone who was kicked a few minues ago from channel, but I may be wrong of course 2015-07-15T10:31:35Z antoszka: Seems that trolls inhabit the atmosphere of Pluto, and a lot of them got transferred over the air recently. 2015-07-15T10:32:02Z jackdaniel: in new incarnation that is 2015-07-15T10:32:11Z antoszka: Well, people have funny pastimes. 2015-07-15T10:32:40Z alimiracle: lisp is ded use python 2015-07-15T10:32:59Z antoszka: I recently saw a dead python. 2015-07-15T10:33:05Z antoszka: It wasn't a nice view, mind you. 2015-07-15T10:33:19Z jackdaniel: alimiracle: ok, on my way - meet you there! 2015-07-15T10:33:37Z antoszka: alimiracle: Please discuss python in #python. 2015-07-15T10:33:47Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 2015-07-15T10:33:57Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@37.238.78.191 2015-07-15T10:34:04Z antoszka: p_l: thx. 2015-07-15T10:34:17Z alimiracle [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (At least you got an interesting IP address, so you have that going for you) 2015-07-15T10:34:52Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T10:35:18Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T10:38:56Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T10:40:11Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-15T10:40:19Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:40:42Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:40:52Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-15T10:41:28Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:41:56Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T10:42:43Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:45:53Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:47:46Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:48:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:49:06Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T10:50:34Z munksgaard quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-15T10:59:39Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:01:42Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:02:53Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:04:51Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:09:09Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-15T11:10:33Z coetry joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:21:16Z thomas quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-15T11:22:05Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T11:22:16Z thomas joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:29:07Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:29:59Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:32:06Z KarlDscc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:32:40Z mc40_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:32:45Z coetry quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-15T11:33:06Z mea-culp` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:33:19Z zyoung_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:33:26Z Mandus_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:33:29Z eagleflo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:33:39Z trnv2 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:33:42Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:34:27Z zymurgy1 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:34:37Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:34:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-15T11:34:37Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:36:22Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:37:02Z overdrive joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:37:21Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:37:33Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:34Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:34Z zymurgy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:34Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:34Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:37:34Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:34Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:34Z mea-culpa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:34Z mc40 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:35Z Mandus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:35Z eagleflo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:35Z hlavaty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:35Z zyoung quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:37:45Z trnv2 is now known as trn 2015-07-15T11:37:51Z clique: hello ! 2015-07-15T11:37:53Z clique quit (Changing host) 2015-07-15T11:37:53Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:37:58Z mc40_ is now known as mc40 2015-07-15T11:38:41Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:40:33Z jackdaniel: o/ 2015-07-15T11:42:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:42:10Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:42:39Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:45:33Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:46:27Z clique quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:46:33Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:47:18Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:48:45Z tmtwd quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-15T11:49:04Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:50:18Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:50:42Z kvsari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T11:50:58Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:53:00Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:53:50Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:53:56Z xificurC: I'm planning on working on a project that needs to work on the 2 of my least favorite OSs (Win and OSX) that needs to connect and work with a db (sqlite and db2 preferably) and needs a GUI frontend. Looking at CLI recommendations I see clsql and cl-dbi for db and cl-gtk2, gtk-cffi and commonqt for GUI. Are these all still maintained? Would you recommend any of these considering the platforms I need to target? 2015-07-15T11:54:34Z H4ns: xificurC: I'd use LispWorks and CAPI for the GUI part. 2015-07-15T11:54:53Z guthur`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:55:56Z p_l: commonqt is maintained, but if you can swing the money for LW licenses, I'd recommend that 2015-07-15T11:56:17Z guthur` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:56:58Z xificurC: yeah, I can't, would need something free 2015-07-15T11:57:23Z xificurC: and preferably documented 2015-07-15T11:58:32Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T11:59:19Z p_l: commonqt + Shinmera's qtools 2015-07-15T11:59:38Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-15T11:59:58Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:00:24Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:01:02Z ronh quit 2015-07-15T12:01:45Z dim: in (format t "~@<~a~^,~:>" (loop for i below 100 collect i)), how can I make it so that the parens are skipped and the coma actually added in between elements of the list? 2015-07-15T12:03:00Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:04:44Z xificurC: p_l: thanks 2015-07-15T12:05:04Z xificurC: and regarding dbs? what do you guys use nowadays 2015-07-15T12:05:40Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:05:46Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T12:05:48Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:05:59Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:06:44Z dim: PostgreSQL 2015-07-15T12:06:51Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:07:05Z Shinmera: postgres or sqlite if it needs to be a file 2015-07-15T12:08:57Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:09:46Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:10:30Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:10:45Z xificurC: sorry I meant what lib do you use to connect to the sql server (or file in case of sqlite) 2015-07-15T12:11:01Z Shinmera: Postmodern 2015-07-15T12:11:03Z Shinmera: or cl-sqlite 2015-07-15T12:11:19Z Shinmera: Respectively of course, though there isn't much choice in both cases. 2015-07-15T12:11:53Z xificurC: Shinmera: I see. I thought there will be an abstraction on top of different servers 2015-07-15T12:12:14Z Shinmera: There is, but it's usually not that great of an idea because you're limiting yourself a lot. 2015-07-15T12:12:25Z Shinmera: There's no point in doing that unless you want to write a general framework. 2015-07-15T12:12:38Z Shinmera: For a specific application you should make a pick that fits your needs and then use that 100%. 2015-07-15T12:12:48Z dim: +1 with what Shinmera says 2015-07-15T12:14:53Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:15:06Z xificurC: point taken, thanks Shinmera and dim 2015-07-15T12:15:30Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:15:32Z Shinmera knows from painful experience of writing said frameworks and constantly running into the limits when using it. 2015-07-15T12:15:56Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:17:06Z guthur`` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:17:33Z sepi`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T12:17:51Z scymtym: dim: i would suggest something like (format t "~@<~{~a~^, ~}~:@>" (loop for i below 100 collect i)) for a logical block with a list of things 2015-07-15T12:18:02Z sepi`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:18:28Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:18:43Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:19:10Z scymtym: if you don't need the logical block, it's just (format t "~{~a~^, ~}" (loop for i below 100 collect i)) 2015-07-15T12:20:20Z dim: I need the logical block here yes 2015-07-15T12:21:22Z dim: using ~<~{ fails here because the list is first expanded then used as a single item in the logical block, such that there's no ~% within the output 2015-07-15T12:21:30Z dim: I want multi-line indented output here 2015-07-15T12:23:29Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:24:01Z scymtym: dim: use ~@<~{ instead of ~<~{ (but that trick only works for the last thing in the format control string, otherwise just wrap the list in (list …)) 2015-07-15T12:25:50Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:26:56Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:27:10Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:28:09Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-15T12:30:00Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:31:16Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:31:47Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:35:09Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:35:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:37:06Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-15T12:37:14Z eylusion joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:37:33Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:38:26Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-15T12:38:39Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:43:57Z mea-culp` is now known as mea-culpa 2015-07-15T12:50:37Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:51:26Z dim: (format t "~@<~{~a~^,~}~:@>" (loop for i below 100 collect i)) is what I just tested and which isn't doing the multi-line output 2015-07-15T12:52:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:53:49Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T12:56:10Z guthur`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T12:59:29Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-15T13:00:34Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:04:15Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:04:30Z KarlDscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T13:05:02Z ronh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T13:05:09Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:05:38Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:09:01Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:10:15Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:10:52Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:11:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:16:03Z scymtym: dim: which implementation did you use? 2015-07-15T13:17:07Z scymtym: also, you may need a space after the #\, that is ~^, ~} for the automatic newline insertion to be effective 2015-07-15T13:18:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T13:19:13Z scymtym: "If ~:@> is used to terminate the directive (i.e., ~<...~:@>), then a fill-style conditional newline is automatically inserted *after each group of blanks* …" 2015-07-15T13:19:37Z dim: sbcl, (format t "~@<~{~a~^, ~}~:@>" (loop for i below 100 collect i)) works, thanks 2015-07-15T13:19:39Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:20:17Z scymtym: np 2015-07-15T13:20:36Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:21:43Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-15T13:25:08Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T13:25:12Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:25:20Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T13:25:22Z Xach: looks like a spaceship 2015-07-15T13:25:50Z dim: I'm quite happy that format knows how to pretty print with indentation and multi-line support and all, but yeah :( 2015-07-15T13:26:08Z dim: also, in that solution, say I want to add a per-line prefix (for the exercise only), I can't do it it seems 2015-07-15T13:26:08Z guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:26:29Z dim: meaning that (format t "~@<;; ~;~{~a~^, ~}~:>" (loop for i below 100 collect i)) will output ;; first then the list without line breaks 2015-07-15T13:26:36Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:27:08Z dim: and (format t "~@<;; ~;~{~a~^, ~}~:@>" (loop for i below 100 collect i)) will deal with line breaks and indentation and print the prefix only once, not one per output line 2015-07-15T13:27:11Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:27:48Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:29:04Z alimiracle joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:29:07Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:29:15Z alimiracle: hi 2015-07-15T13:29:28Z alimiracle: its lisp stil alife? 2015-07-15T13:29:52Z Xach: alimiracle: yes 2015-07-15T13:30:01Z jackdaniel: Xach: don't (scroll up) 2015-07-15T13:30:05Z scymtym: dim: (format t "~@<;; ~@;~{~a~^, ~}~:@>" (loop for i below 100 collect i)) 2015-07-15T13:30:08Z Xach: jackdaniel: don't scroll up? 2015-07-15T13:30:15Z scymtym: i.e. ~@; instead of ~; 2015-07-15T13:30:27Z jackdaniel: don't feed a troll, scroll up two pages to see proof 2015-07-15T13:30:34Z dim: scymtym: wow, thanks! 2015-07-15T13:30:36Z guthur`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T13:30:49Z jackdaniel: maybe 5 ^L 2015-07-15T13:30:54Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:30:54Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:31:02Z dim: scymtym: while at it, how to control the line length from the same format string? 2015-07-15T13:31:06Z alimiracle: but I cant find new Programs in lisp 2015-07-15T13:31:36Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 2015-07-15T13:31:45Z Xach has set mode -b *!*@37.238.78.191 2015-07-15T13:31:51Z dim: alimiracle: search for pgloader and pgcharts for examples 2015-07-15T13:31:59Z Xach has set mode +b *!*@37.238.* 2015-07-15T13:32:07Z David36 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:32:09Z alimiracle [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (ban evasion is rude) 2015-07-15T13:32:38Z dim: oh was I feeding a troll? 2015-07-15T13:33:00Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T13:33:16Z Xach: No. 2015-07-15T13:33:41Z Xach: It's ok to be friendly and helpful. 2015-07-15T13:33:41Z scymtym: dim: not possible with this approach, as far as i know. but the line length should be a property of the environment (columns in terminal window, emacs buffer, etc.), not the format control imo. *PRINT-RIGHT-MARGIN* lets you control where the pretty printer wraps lines, though. 2015-07-15T13:33:58Z dlowe: Xach: I think you just banned all of Iraq 2015-07-15T13:34:19Z Xof joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:34:42Z H4ns: what's it with all the kicking and banning today, is it very hot everywhere? something in the drinking water? 2015-07-15T13:34:55Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T13:35:21Z Xach: dlowe: Hmm, I don't know enough about freenode ban options to do something more fine-grained. 2015-07-15T13:35:28Z dim: *print-right-margin* is effective, thanks 2015-07-15T13:35:39Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:35:44Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-15T13:36:21Z Cymew: At least it will make ban evasion a bit harder for him for a while 2015-07-15T13:36:30Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:36:30Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-15T13:36:30Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-15T13:36:47Z p_l has set mode +b-b $a:alimiracle *!*@37.238.* 2015-07-15T13:36:54Z p_l: might work, I hope 2015-07-15T13:38:12Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T13:38:25Z Xach: Cool. 2015-07-15T13:38:29Z Xach has set mode -o Xach 2015-07-15T13:40:19Z David36 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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← probably chemtrails :) 2015-07-15T14:15:01Z ggole_ is now known as ggole 2015-07-15T14:16:06Z antoszka: Fun Lisp project: query geo-ip locations of trolls over time and space, and plot the paths of chemtrail-spraying aircraft :) 2015-07-15T14:16:25Z David36 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-15T14:20:25Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T14:21:40Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T14:23:13Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-07-15T14:25:22Z progo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T14:30:55Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-15T14:32:35Z ack006 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T14:39:06Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T14:39:27Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-15T14:40:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T14:41:07Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T14:43:07Z smith joined #lisp 2015-07-15T14:43:32Z p_l: antoszka: south cal. would come preloaded 2015-07-15T14:44:13Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T14:49:19Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T14:55:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T14:57:54Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T14:58:22Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-07-15T14:59:03Z guthur` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T14:59:48Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:00:44Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:01:00Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T15:01:38Z Xach: pjb: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-15/failure-report/com.informatimago.html#com.informatimago.languages.c11 2015-07-15T15:02:32Z dmiles_afk quit 2015-07-15T15:02:59Z cris_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:03:10Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:04:09Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-15T15:04:16Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:04:51Z cris_: Using the scm interpreter (scheme), and defining a variable as a number (pretty simple stuff) outputs unbound variable whenever I run (* var1 (* var2 var2)) 2015-07-15T15:04:53Z cris_: What gives? 2015-07-15T15:05:20Z jackdaniel: cris_: this channel is mainly concerned about common lisp, try ##lisp, or #scheme 2015-07-15T15:06:09Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:08:13Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T15:08:50Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:10:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T15:11:21Z jocuman joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:13:02Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T15:13:03Z dmh1 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:13:22Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:14:47Z dmh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:14:47Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:14:47Z dmh1 is now known as dmh 2015-07-15T15:16:16Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:18:22Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:19:43Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:20:05Z cris_ left #lisp 2015-07-15T15:21:55Z anachrome joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:23:46Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:24:08Z perax quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:24:51Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:25:09Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:25:30Z jackdaniel: heh, refactoring c++ app into CL module by module *is* fun 2015-07-15T15:26:24Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:27:12Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-15T15:27:30Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:28:56Z badkins quit 2015-07-15T15:33:15Z perpetuum joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:38:36Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:39:08Z ack006 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-15T15:40:53Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-07-15T15:42:07Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:43:04Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:43:10Z theos: +1 for the effort mate 2015-07-15T15:43:18Z jocuman quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:43:27Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:43:53Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:44:16Z flip214: is there some standard CL function that gives some number about used or free heap? I want to put that into a generating loop to slow it down, to avoid going OOM 2015-07-15T15:44:33Z flip214: ROOM would've to be textually parsed 2015-07-15T15:45:08Z jasom: flip214: trivial-garbage might have something 2015-07-15T15:45:28Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:45:31Z jasom: but it doesn't 2015-07-15T15:45:52Z jasom: flip214: it might be better to just keep track of the queue size 2015-07-15T15:46:17Z jasom uses fixed-size queues that block when full for this reason 2015-07-15T15:46:37Z dmiles_afk quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-15T15:46:48Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:46:59Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:47:00Z dmiles_afk quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-15T15:47:19Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:47:20Z dmiles_afk quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-15T15:47:40Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:47:41Z dmiles_afk quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-15T15:47:58Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:48:01Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:48:01Z dmiles_afk quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-15T15:48:03Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:48:22Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:48:22Z dmiles_afk quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-15T15:48:42Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:48:42Z dmiles_afk quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-15T15:48:56Z mea-culp` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:49:01Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:49:06Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:49:37Z flip214: jasom: I tried that, but it seems to run full even when limiting to a few thousand INTEGERS (with ~40 decimal digits) and 8GB heap... 2015-07-15T15:50:13Z mea-culpa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:51:20Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:52:02Z jasom: flip214: I created 10k integers of 40 decimal digits and heap size was 114MB at the end; it's not your queue that's the issue 2015-07-15T15:53:37Z flip214: well, I'm not really allocating much more data... 2015-07-15T15:53:39Z jasom: of course I tend to use queue sizes of something like 16 or 32, but usually generating data for the queue is much more expensive than a context-switch; larger queues will reduce context-switch overhead 2015-07-15T15:53:50Z jasom: flip214: is something keeping a referrence of them around? 2015-07-15T15:53:51Z flip214: I've got a few fixed-size array, and a few messageboxes 2015-07-15T15:54:05Z flip214: I wouldn't know where. 2015-07-15T15:54:05Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:54:25Z flip214: I'll try to get it fail faster than 20 minutes, perhaps I can find out what's the problem. 2015-07-15T15:54:34Z Xof joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:55:11Z jasom: flip214: you can do a (gc :full t) (room) <some work> (gc :full t) (room) to see if you are leaking 2015-07-15T15:56:25Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T15:57:27Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:58:04Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T15:58:09Z flip214: hmmm, I'll try to reproduce with 512M, perhaps that is faster... 2015-07-15T15:58:44Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-15T15:59:02Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-15T16:00:32Z pgomes quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-15T16:00:36Z flip214: it runs fine most of the time, but as the numbers get larger it seems to explode at one point. 2015-07-15T16:01:40Z flip214: of course, that's multithreaded and using SBCLs mailboxes, not a simple list... perhaps something is kept around somewhere. 2015-07-15T16:02:51Z jasom: speaking of multithreaded, is there documentation for what guarantees sbcl makes for inter-thread consistency? 2015-07-15T16:03:42Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:04:01Z jasom: e.g. for what objects would it hold true that if thread A reads it while thread B is mutating it, thread A will see either the old or the new value 2015-07-15T16:04:17Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T16:04:42Z williamyao: Is there jargon for the plus signs on constants? 2015-07-15T16:04:55Z jasom: williamyao: earmuffs? 2015-07-15T16:05:10Z williamyao: I thought those were just for asterisks. 2015-07-15T16:05:38Z flip214: jasom: I guess for guarantees you'd need to atomically swap some pointer around ... 2015-07-15T16:06:25Z jasom: flip214: right, and I'm guessing that e.g. (setf cdr) works that way on x86, as word-size writes are atomic on x86 2015-07-15T16:06:36Z flip214: even a (incf (slot1 obj) (slot2 obj)) might do two reads, increments, two writes 2015-07-15T16:06:37Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:06:48Z jasom: flip214: I expect incf to not be atomic 2015-07-15T16:07:30Z flip214: INCF not, but SBCL has atomic_inc IIRC 2015-07-15T16:08:12Z dpiav joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:08:50Z dpiav: Lisp is so great. 2015-07-15T16:08:58Z dpiav: The greatest language I've ever seen. 2015-07-15T16:09:17Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-15T16:09:20Z jackdaniel: it has it's flaws ;) 2015-07-15T16:09:54Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-15T16:11:55Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T16:12:09Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-15T16:14:03Z perax joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:14:48Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:15:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:17:02Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:17:14Z copycat quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-15T16:18:04Z flip214: so, the process is OOM again. ran some time fairly stable, then went off the cliff. Can I do something from LDB? 2015-07-15T16:18:14Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:20:04Z ronh quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-15T16:20:04Z sepi`` quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-15T16:20:05Z sdothum quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-15T16:20:05Z lieven quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-15T16:20:05Z splittist quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-15T16:20:05Z victor_lowther quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-15T16:20:05Z peccu quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-15T16:20:18Z flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151631 in case that's of any help 2015-07-15T16:20:22Z lieven joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:20:25Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:20:25Z peccu joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:20:34Z sepi`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:20:53Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:21:25Z dpiav quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-15T16:21:44Z fe[nl]ix: |3b|: you're awesome 2015-07-15T16:22:08Z flip214: now running with (ROOM) and (GC:FULL) every few seconds 2015-07-15T16:22:09Z fe[nl]ix: CFFI hasn't seen such good QA since before luis & I got real jobs 2015-07-15T16:23:14Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:23:26Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:25:14Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-07-15T16:27:28Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: is it linked on project page? (QA that is) 2015-07-15T16:29:36Z flip214: hmm, it seems to leak somewhere. 2015-07-15T16:29:37Z flip214: 21,917,616 bytes for 1,035,051 bignum objects. 2015-07-15T16:29:41Z flip214: 73,093,168 bytes for 2,629,733 bignum objects. 2015-07-15T16:29:45Z flip214: 82,093,856 bytes for 2,681,524 bignum objects. 2015-07-15T16:29:55Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: it's on launchpad 2015-07-15T16:29:56Z flip214: although the queue should be limited to 10k elements... 2015-07-15T16:31:23Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: oh, I tought you mean Question/Answers, while it's about quality assurance 2015-07-15T16:31:35Z fe[nl]ix: yes :) 2015-07-15T16:32:46Z paddymahoney quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-15T16:33:15Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:33:29Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:34:48Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:36:01Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:36:26Z lieven quit (Changing host) 2015-07-15T16:36:26Z lieven joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:37:58Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:39:36Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:40:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T16:41:29Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:42:34Z perpetuum quit 2015-07-15T16:44:19Z _sjs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T16:45:07Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:47:04Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:48:50Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T16:53:41Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-15T16:59:20Z ggole quit 2015-07-15T17:00:17Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-15T17:00:19Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:02:00Z salv0 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:02:47Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-15T17:04:34Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:05:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T17:05:43Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-15T17:10:42Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:11:53Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:13:20Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:13:20Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-15T17:13:20Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:14:34Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:14:51Z zymurgy1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-07-15T17:15:18Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:16:10Z scharan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-15T17:16:14Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:17:03Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:17:08Z araujo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T17:17:39Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T17:18:19Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T17:19:05Z w37 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T17:20:49Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:21:55Z zymurgy quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-07-15T17:22:07Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:22:49Z zymurgy quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-15T17:23:00Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:24:47Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:25:06Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:27:39Z ziocroc quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-15T17:28:05Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:28:23Z zygentoma is now known as zygentoma^dorf 2015-07-15T17:28:49Z scharan joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:30:30Z zymurgy quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-07-15T17:30:46Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:30:59Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T17:31:08Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:35:00Z keen__________21 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:35:51Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T17:36:01Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:38:12Z keen__________20 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T17:39:16Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:39:31Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:40:20Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T17:40:33Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:42:58Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T17:43:07Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:43:37Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:45:17Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T17:45:43Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:46:59Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:49:45Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T17:49:55Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:52:19Z dafunktion quit 2015-07-15T17:52:34Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:54:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:54:43Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T17:54:52Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:55:01Z clique: hello! 2015-07-15T17:56:43Z loz1: i'm a bit confused by this error message: 2015-07-15T17:56:43Z loz1: While computing the class precedence list of the class named CLACK::<SAMPLE-APP>. 2015-07-15T17:56:43Z loz1: The class named CLACK::<COMPONENT> is a forward referenced class. 2015-07-15T17:56:43Z loz1: The class named CLACK::<COMPONENT> is a direct superclass of the class named CLACK::<SAMPLE-APP>. 2015-07-15T17:56:59Z loz1: the class is defined as (defclass <sample-app> (<component>) ()) 2015-07-15T17:57:13Z nyef: Is <COMPONENT> defined? 2015-07-15T17:57:26Z eudoxia: have you loaded clack-v1-compat? 2015-07-15T17:57:38Z eudoxia: (this is the new 'have you tried turning it off and on again') 2015-07-15T17:57:40Z loz1: It names the class <COMPONENT> 2015-07-15T17:58:38Z loz1: eudoxia: oh, nice to see you here :) just found your github repos 2015-07-15T17:58:43Z loz1: and starred them :D 2015-07-15T17:59:10Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T17:59:21Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T17:59:29Z eudoxia: thanks, github stars are what keeps my blood pumping 2015-07-15T17:59:55Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-15T18:00:13Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:01:20Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:01:54Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:02:01Z loz1: eudoxia: loading clack-v1-compat helped, thanks 2015-07-15T18:02:20Z eudoxia: loz1: helped as in fixed it or got you further along? 2015-07-15T18:02:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-15T18:04:06Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:04:37Z loz1: eudoxia: well, i can't find how to stop existing clackup 2015-07-15T18:04:43Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:04:46Z loz1: to start a new one 2015-07-15T18:05:01Z eudoxia: clackup returns a handler object 2015-07-15T18:05:05Z eudoxia: you hold on to that and clack:stop it 2015-07-15T18:06:17Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-15T18:06:40Z loz1: i'm glad slime has presentations 2015-07-15T18:06:51Z dwrngr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:06:59Z loz1: eudoxia: done, nice 2015-07-15T18:08:51Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:08:58Z loz1: is trace marco works only for current thread? 2015-07-15T18:09:01Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:10:19Z jasom: loz1: clack messes with streams for worker threads, check the *inferior-lisp* buffer 2015-07-15T18:11:41Z loz1: jasom: yep, traces are there 2015-07-15T18:13:23Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:13:33Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:14:23Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:16:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:16:42Z clique quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T18:18:07Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-15T18:18:08Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:18:20Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:18:42Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:18:51Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:20:23Z jasom: I have some vacation next week, maybe I'll clean up my mongrel2 handler for clack and do a pull-request for inclusion of it 2015-07-15T18:22:36Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T18:22:51Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:23:02Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:23:04Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:23:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:23:28Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:25:57Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:26:00Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:26:21Z smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-15T18:27:26Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:27:38Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:32:04Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:32:19Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:32:30Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:32:41Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T18:33:14Z zygentoma^dorf quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T18:34:27Z jasom: is there an interface to posix advisory file locking? 2015-07-15T18:35:25Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T18:36:39Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-15T18:36:46Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:36:51Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:37:04Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:38:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T18:38:56Z digiorgi: HI, how do you have only one final result when using the unit testing framework "prove"?? 2015-07-15T18:40:41Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:40:47Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-15T18:41:01Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: if you're referring to fcntl(F_SETLK) you can use iolib 2015-07-15T18:41:54Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:42:04Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:42:23Z loz1: digiorgi: what do you mean by one final result? 2015-07-15T18:43:49Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:43:56Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: yes I am; I didn't see the constants for f_setlk in there, I'll check again 2015-07-15T18:43:59Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-15T18:44:02Z jasom: my iolib might also be out-of-date 2015-07-15T18:44:23Z fe[nl]ix: you surely have them, that code is very old 2015-07-15T18:45:31Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:46:22Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:46:32Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:49:09Z digiorgi: loz1: when unit testing runs, it gives the results per file, and with a lot of files i end seeing only the result of the last file 2015-07-15T18:50:57Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:51:09Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:52:00Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:52:24Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:53:40Z sun joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:53:45Z sun is now known as Guest62733 2015-07-15T18:54:18Z PuercoPop: digiorgi: how are you running your tests? you can do an #''and of successive calls to (run ...) 2015-07-15T18:55:57Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T18:56:06Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:56:11Z Guest62733 left #lisp 2015-07-15T18:57:11Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-15T18:57:57Z byroniczero quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-15T19:00:27Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-15T19:00:27Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T19:00:38Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:05:23Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T19:05:44Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:06:49Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:09:53Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T19:10:03Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:10:48Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T19:12:34Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:13:11Z loz1: how does slime/swank handle errors and debugger control? 2015-07-15T19:14:34Z loz1: does it just redirect input from socket to the broken thread? 2015-07-15T19:14:50Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T19:15:02Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:15:28Z loz1: or can it control debugging of other threads? like evaluate expressions in specified frames and so on.. 2015-07-15T19:16:13Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T19:17:01Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:18:12Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:18:19Z |3b|: fe[nl]ix: just wish i wasn't finding all these the hard way :/ (or that i had better luck fixing some of them) 2015-07-15T19:18:54Z fe[nl]ix: what are you doing that you found them all at once ? 2015-07-15T19:19:05Z contrapunctus quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-15T19:19:08Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus 2015-07-15T19:19:21Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T19:19:32Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:20:14Z |3b|: working on bindings for libovr (oculus' rift API), which likes passing structs around 2015-07-15T19:20:40Z |3b|: and putting them in structs and passing those around, etc 2015-07-15T19:22:14Z |3b|: lots of edge cases that cffi doesn't quite handle right when structs are passed by value, and i'm not sure if all of them can be fixed nicely without breaking backwards compatibility :( 2015-07-15T19:22:48Z LiamH: |3b| Do you have examples? 2015-07-15T19:23:26Z |3b|: LiamH: see the cffi bug tracker 2015-07-15T19:23:29Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T19:23:46Z |3b| added a dozen or so bugs 2015-07-15T19:23:51Z LiamH: |3b|: I saw your one pull request, did you see my comment? 2015-07-15T19:24:09Z |3b| checks 2015-07-15T19:24:18Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T19:24:28Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:24:55Z Bike: i remember ovr returning quats, but what else, hm 2015-07-15T19:24:56Z |3b|: no idea if i ran tests with it or not, isn't cffi set up to run them automatically for pull requests? 2015-07-15T19:25:07Z |3b|: and yeah, looked like copy-paste error to me too 2015-07-15T19:25:10Z LiamH: |3b|: Good point 2015-07-15T19:26:25Z |3b|: Bike: matrices, tracking state, sizei, frame timing, pose, eye render desc 2015-07-15T19:26:48Z Bike: yeah, i just checked and see it returning a whole tracking state, dang 2015-07-15T19:27:25Z |3b|: but also cffi gets confused for some non-struct return types if you pass structs as args 2015-07-15T19:28:07Z LiamH: well I don't see any issues 2015-07-15T19:28:16Z |3b|: launchpad, not github 2015-07-15T19:28:25Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T19:28:48Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T19:28:48Z jasom: loz1: on sbcl at least, it has no trouble debugging threads 2015-07-15T19:28:56Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T19:28:58Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:29:03Z |3b|: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bugs?orderby=-date_last_updated&start=0 2015-07-15T19:30:18Z LiamH: |3b|: Does your pull request affect/fix any of them? 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2015-07-15T19:53:05Z borklaser: *me 2015-07-15T19:53:26Z Bike: sure. what os, etc. 2015-07-15T19:53:42Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-15T19:53:59Z borklaser: Ubuntu 2015-07-15T19:54:03Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:54:24Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T19:55:45Z badkins quit 2015-07-15T19:55:49Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:55:50Z Bike: install sbcl and emacs from apt, then follow the directions at https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ to install quicklisp, then (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper), then launch emacs and type M-x slime and that should hopefully be about it 2015-07-15T19:56:23Z Bike: er, M-x meaning "alt and x at the same time" in emacs terminology 2015-07-15T19:57:12Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T19:57:23Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:57:57Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T19:58:32Z tyson2 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T19:58:35Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2015-07-15T19:59:33Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:01:38Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:01:49Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:03:20Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-15T20:04:15Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:05:40Z salv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:06:33Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:07:05Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:10:54Z ghard``` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-15T20:11:13Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:11:23Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:13:21Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:13:56Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:14:03Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T20:15:32Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T20:15:42Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:15:56Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:16:09Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:20:40Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:20:49Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:21:27Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:21:56Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:23:41Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:24:08Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:24:46Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:25:08Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:25:19Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:28:39Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-15T20:29:15Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:30:03Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:30:13Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:34:33Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:34:46Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:37:37Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T20:38:04Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T20:39:15Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:39:26Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:39:27Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:41:04Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T20:42:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:44:12Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:44:20Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T20:44:30Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:44:54Z borklaser: By knowing Scheme, will learning CL be super easy for me? 2015-07-15T20:45:45Z Bike: no, but it will probably be smoother than if you only knew something with more different syntax. 2015-07-15T20:45:55Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:46:04Z pgomes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-15T20:46:30Z Bike: and you already know what a macro is and such, i mean. 2015-07-15T20:48:16Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:48:20Z Xach: or, it could be less smooth if you think CL is like Scheme with weirder names. 2015-07-15T20:48:41Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:48:51Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:49:31Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:49:38Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T20:49:45Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T20:50:29Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:50:56Z ahungry: I did a bit of updates to http://sluglisp.ahungry.com - for tagging/categorizing, do you think it makes the most sense to do maintain myself and just update as people email, allow users to freely tag (similar to twitter hashtags or something) or use some sort of parsing on the cached readme files? 2015-07-15T20:51:15Z ahungry: s/to do maintain/to do maintenance/g 2015-07-15T20:53:38Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:53:49Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:54:52Z yati quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:55:09Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:58:06Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T20:58:18Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T20:58:39Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T20:59:25Z Xach: ahungry: maybe on source code too? 2015-07-15T21:00:08Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:00:19Z eazar_salesman joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:01:44Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:02:22Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-15T21:03:07Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:03:18Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:03:19Z ahungry: good idea I can probably do a call out to that via github api 2015-07-15T21:03:29Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:04:38Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:05:41Z yati1 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:06:24Z yati quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T21:06:24Z yati1 is now known as yati 2015-07-15T21:07:31Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:07:41Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:09:34Z Octophore2 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:09:51Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-15T21:10:19Z tyson2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:10:56Z Octophore3 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:12:14Z Octophore quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-15T21:12:28Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:12:36Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:12:43Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:14:20Z Octophore2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T21:16:56Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:17:06Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:17:17Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T21:17:21Z yati1 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:18:14Z yati1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T21:21:43Z pjb: Xach: would it be possible to specify a branch for quicklisp use along with the git repo? (It would be easier than successive tags, I guess) I could prepare the quicklisp release in quicklisp branch, so that it wouldn't get poluted by in-work developments. 2015-07-15T21:21:56Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:22:22Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:22:25Z yati joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:22:47Z pjb: Or I will have to switch to "development" branches to keep master clean. 2015-07-15T21:24:57Z yati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T21:26:21Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:26:31Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:31:20Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:31:33Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:35:45Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:35:55Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:36:16Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:36:23Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-07-15T21:39:50Z dmh quit (Quit: dmh) 2015-07-15T21:40:42Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:40:53Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:41:02Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:45:10Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:45:21Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:45:49Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T21:48:26Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:49:49Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-15T21:50:05Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T21:50:09Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:50:23Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:50:30Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-15T21:50:42Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:51:20Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-15T21:54:13Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T21:54:35Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:54:45Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:55:04Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:55:51Z Octophore joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:58:25Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-07-15T21:59:06Z Octophore3 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T21:59:32Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T21:59:42Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T22:04:00Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T22:04:12Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T22:07:19Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T22:09:06Z akkad: posting stuff to irc. would trivial-irc be the best choice? 2015-07-15T22:10:07Z fe[nl]ix: akkad: cl-irc 2015-07-15T22:10:25Z Xach: pjb: i can use tags 2015-07-15T22:11:09Z akkad: fe[nl]ix] thanks 2015-07-15T22:13:03Z ghard```` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T22:13:07Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T22:18:18Z mea-culp` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T22:20:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T22:23:00Z brpocock quit (Quit: brpocock) 2015-07-15T22:26:22Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-15T22:26:58Z duggiefresh quit 2015-07-15T22:28:41Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-15T22:30:39Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-15T22:32:53Z goglosh` joined #lisp 2015-07-15T22:33:15Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-15T22:34:41Z goglosh` is now known as goglosh 2015-07-15T22:41:07Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-15T22:41:45Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-15T22:41:51Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T22:42:05Z dim: ahungry: are the stars on your website github stars? 2015-07-15T22:43:07Z akkad: cl-irc seems to have everything BUT posting a message to a public channel 2015-07-15T22:44:01Z nyef: akkad: It's still a PRIVMSG operation, but instead of to a nick, it goes to a channel name. 2015-07-15T22:44:22Z akkad: ahh. ty 2015-07-15T22:44:24Z nyef: That's at the protocol level, though. I have no idea how it translates up to the library you're looking at. 2015-07-15T22:44:29Z akkad: thought there was a PUBLIC 2015-07-15T22:44:36Z akkad: cl-irc 2015-07-15T22:47:09Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-15T22:49:54Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-15T22:50:36Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-15T22:50:50Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-15T22:54:06Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-15T22:55:24Z dafunktion quit 2015-07-15T23:03:27Z phoe6 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-15T23:04:32Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-07-15T23:06:16Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-15T23:09:20Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-15T23:10:03Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-07-15T23:12:24Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-15T23:16:16Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, etc.) 2015-07-15T23:17:02Z paddymahoney quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-15T23:18:26Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-07-15T23:20:59Z Bike: cl-irc duplicates protocol terms pretty closely, so you will just be using the privmsg class/function/i forget what exactly it is 2015-07-15T23:21:01Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-15T23:21:35Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-15T23:23:40Z ``Erik: cl-irc:privmsg 2015-07-15T23:24:27Z ``Erik: (cl-irc:privmsg *connection* "#lisp" "blahblah") 2015-07-15T23:36:00Z paddymahoney quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-15T23:36:24Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-15T23:37:12Z triclops-help joined #lisp 2015-07-15T23:37:20Z dmh joined #lisp 2015-07-15T23:37:28Z triclops-help: Does anyone here have experience working with caveman2? 2015-07-15T23:37:40Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-15T23:37:55Z triclops-help: If so, can anyone enlighten me on why *session* is nil 2015-07-15T23:38:12Z triclops-help: Is there something I need to do to make it initialize properly? 2015-07-15T23:39:51Z not_tfl quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-15T23:40:03Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-15T23:40:23Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-15T23:40:27Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. 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What does the doc say? 2015-07-16T01:04:58Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:07:03Z contrapunctus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T01:07:04Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:08:21Z akkad: making emacs a prerequisite to learning lisp, is such bad advice 2015-07-16T01:12:39Z hydan: pjb: it says that it will disable tco for debug > 2. and also "If debug is greater than all of speed, space and compilation-speed the code will be steppable". 2015-07-16T01:12:54Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:15:08Z hydan: pjb: the part about inlining is a bit unclear, to me, but I think I was asking a wrong question to begin with. 2015-07-16T01:15:10Z hydan: thanks 2015-07-16T01:17:38Z ronh_t joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:17:42Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:17:50Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:20:11Z pjb: akkad: not a prerequisite, but a it goes without saying. 2015-07-16T01:20:16Z Patzy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:20:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T01:20:41Z pjb: Any computer users should be an emacs user. :-) 2015-07-16T01:21:06Z oGMo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:21:09Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:21:11Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:21:23Z keen__________21 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:21:23Z ronh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:21:23Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:21:23Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:21:23Z oGMo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:21:24Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:21:24Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:21:24Z ahungry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:21:24Z oGMo_ is now known as oGMo 2015-07-16T01:21:43Z keen__________21 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:23:10Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:24:05Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:24:58Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-16T01:25:03Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-16T01:25:50Z akkad: "To learn clojure, you need to master Eclipse first" 2015-07-16T01:28:55Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:28:59Z pjb: Obviously not. You need to use emacs first. 2015-07-16T01:29:13Z pjb: For anything, you need emacs. 2015-07-16T01:30:55Z akkad notes elisp is unable to bootstrap sbcl... until then, no need :P 2015-07-16T01:31:02Z Octophore2 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:32:08Z pjb: akkad: update emacs-cl and it might be able to. 2015-07-16T01:32:30Z hydan: akkad: If people want to use inferior tools, it is up to them. but a good advice goes a long way, for people who are willing to follow it. 2015-07-16T01:33:01Z Octophore quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:36:49Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:36:55Z Octophore joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:39:02Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:39:06Z Octophore2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:39:24Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:39:46Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T01:40:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:40:36Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:40:54Z hydan quit (Quit: zzzzZZZZZZzz) 2015-07-16T01:43:29Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:44:13Z akkad: knowing lisp is not boolean 2015-07-16T01:45:12Z akkad: hey, I live in emacs. but it's not something you master in an afternoon, before cracking on chapter one of PCL 2015-07-16T01:45:43Z pjb: This is the reason we should keep repeating: go learn emacs, to the earliest times. 2015-07-16T01:46:21Z akkad: if I had a replacement, I would replace it... 2015-07-16T01:47:15Z aeth: What's the standard way to run an application outside of the REPL? 2015-07-16T01:47:27Z akkad: aeth depending if you delivered a standalone binary 2015-07-16T01:50:31Z akkad: ediware is pretty good without emacs :P 2015-07-16T01:50:58Z White__Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:50:59Z aeth: maybe I should just tell any end user to download emacs, quicklisp, and slime :-p 2015-07-16T01:51:01Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:51:49Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:51:54Z akkad works in a mostly vim/sublime shop on cl/clojure 2015-07-16T01:52:28Z kristof: aeth: It depends on the application. But all of them will have some way of saving the Lisp instance after the code is compiled and loaded, and dumping the image as an (extraordinarily large) executable. 2015-07-16T01:52:42Z kristof: aeth: stuff like buildapp will abstract over this 2015-07-16T01:53:08Z pjb: aeth: double click on an icon? 2015-07-16T01:53:32Z aeth: pjb: oh of course, I should have just checked C:\Program Files and double clicked on the icon 2015-07-16T01:53:37Z aeth: is it even C:\Program Files anymore? 2015-07-16T01:53:46Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:53:51Z drmeister: Working with llvm inlining is the darkest sorcery. 2015-07-16T01:54:30Z edi joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:54:52Z drmeister: You need debugging metadata attached to all calls that you want inlining into and none attached to the functions you are inlining 2015-07-16T01:54:55Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T01:55:14Z lisper29 is now known as Guest2406 2015-07-16T01:55:18Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-16T01:55:28Z Guest2406 is now known as lisper29` 2015-07-16T01:57:19Z edi left #lisp 2015-07-16T02:00:36Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:01:07Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:01:32Z streptotrichosis joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:02:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit 2015-07-16T02:03:39Z lepardo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:05:27Z badkins quit 2015-07-16T02:05:31Z pjb: aeth: Here is how I launch an application written in Common Lisp: https://youtu.be/amf8-WQwXZo (namely, the hangman game, http://cliki.net/com.informatimago.hangman ). 2015-07-16T02:06:08Z pjb: aeth: it is rather standard, on MacOSX (and I hear, on MS-Windows), to double-click on an icon to launch an application. 2015-07-16T02:09:28Z aeth: oh yes, it's standard in e.g. Windows 3.1 2015-07-16T02:09:44Z aeth: where you open the application by navigating to the folder it's in, and double click the application icon 2015-07-16T02:11:44Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:11:57Z pjb: Perhaps you were thinking of another way? You could have a mind reader device, and launch applications just by thinking about them. http://www.biotele.com/mind_readers.html 2015-07-16T02:12:15Z aeth: well the real way to launch something is to launch it in the terminal with & at the end iirc :-p 2015-07-16T02:12:31Z aeth: or in most linux desktops you can also do something like Alt+F2 which is sort of like M-x 2015-07-16T02:12:53Z pjb: Granted. But you asked outside of the REPL. 2015-07-16T02:13:12Z pjb: What, you mean you don't run a REPL in all of your terminals? 2015-07-16T02:17:57Z borklaser quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-16T02:17:59Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:20:53Z nyef: What's the organization with the most impressive launch process for a common lisp application? NASA! 2015-07-16T02:21:30Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:21:34Z aeth: idk, the failure rate is way too high 2015-07-16T02:21:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-16T02:22:25Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-16T02:22:40Z kristof: Good evening! 2015-07-16T02:24:24Z pjb: aeth: actually no, AFAWK, the success rate for lisp applications launched into space by Nasa is 100%. 2015-07-16T02:24:46Z aeth: pjb: wow, that's actually pretty good 2015-07-16T02:25:09Z nyef: Pretty good, on a sample size of, what, one? 2015-07-16T02:25:12Z pjb: Indeed, foremost if you compare with other programming languages, where they definitely have had more than zero crashes. 2015-07-16T02:25:19Z pjb: nyef: yes, 1. 2015-07-16T02:25:43Z pjb: But you can't reproach it on CL. 2015-07-16T02:25:51Z nyef: Indeed. 2015-07-16T02:26:15Z pjb: so, CL 100%, C/C++ what, 80%? 2015-07-16T02:26:23Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:26:37Z aeth: Do they use any ADA? 2015-07-16T02:26:46Z pjb: Some I'd guess. 2015-07-16T02:27:02Z pjb: And for a time they used their own HAL/S programming language, quite nice too. 2015-07-16T02:28:06Z kristof: pjb: One would argue that statistically, a large enough sample size has not been obtained to do a hypothesis test of "CL applications do not fail" with an acceptable confidence level. 2015-07-16T02:28:22Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:28:38Z pjb: kristof: do you use 1,000,000 applications or just a handful? 2015-07-16T02:28:58Z pjb: kristof: do statistics apply when you use only 3 applications? (eg. emacs, firefox and mplayer). 2015-07-16T02:31:02Z kristof: pjb: We can calculate exactly how large a sample population we would need to be P percent confident in the proportion p-hat of applications that are sufficiently robust. 2015-07-16T02:31:04Z nyef: ... Which of those three are CL applications? 2015-07-16T02:31:15Z pjb: :-( 2015-07-16T02:31:53Z kristof: pjb: You know, I think examining very large applications in such a study would also necessitate studying prior released versions 2015-07-16T02:32:01Z kristof: After all, you fix bugs after you find them and rerelease 2015-07-16T02:32:08Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:34:30Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T02:34:43Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:35:45Z dafunktion quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T02:36:22Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:36:24Z axion quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T02:45:50Z Denommus` quit (Quit: going to sleep) 2015-07-16T02:49:27Z CodyReichert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T02:49:37Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:49:47Z White__Flame quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T02:50:30Z antonv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T02:50:38Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:52:50Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:53:04Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:53:06Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T02:57:19Z sebbee joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:59:02Z kcj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T02:59:46Z pyx joined #lisp 2015-07-16T02:59:51Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T03:02:05Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-16T03:03:15Z axion joined #lisp 2015-07-16T03:06:59Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-07-16T03:07:01Z aeth: CL probably has a lower fail rate. It has a functionalish style, and less mutation than normal languages, even though it's not like Haskell or even Scheme 2015-07-16T03:07:15Z aeth: With the right kind of libraries you could probably write some very stable code 2015-07-16T03:07:38Z aeth: The testing libraries in Quicklisp are probably not enough for, well, NASA. 2015-07-16T03:08:31Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-16T03:10:51Z nyef: aeth: Perhaps not, but they'd probably *love* ACL2. 2015-07-16T03:13:12Z aeth: acl2? 2015-07-16T03:14:27Z beach: By J Moore I suppose. 2015-07-16T03:14:40Z beach: UT Austin. 2015-07-16T03:15:22Z aeth: this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACL2 2015-07-16T03:15:55Z pillton: aeth: Yes. The theorem prover. 2015-07-16T03:16:04Z aeth: yes, that does kind of sound nice 2015-07-16T03:20:00Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T03:22:50Z theos: i thought nasa used lisp? 2015-07-16T03:24:15Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T03:25:14Z aeth: http://nasasearch.nasa.gov/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&affiliate=nasa&query=lisp 2015-07-16T03:25:23Z aeth: yes, yes they do 2015-07-16T03:25:30Z aeth: more than once 2015-07-16T03:26:08Z aeth: although maybe I shouldn't use present tense, I'm not sure 2015-07-16T03:28:02Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:30:41Z adhoc: aeth: there are probes on current missions that are running lisp 2015-07-16T03:31:10Z adhoc: it may not be under current development, though 2015-07-16T03:39:08Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-16T03:41:17Z pjb: There's a very easy way to put lisp on orbit. Use it to write the program of a microsatellite. 2015-07-16T03:41:21Z arpunk quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-16T03:41:37Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-16T03:41:48Z pjb: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/880837561/skycube-the-first-satellite-launched-by-you 2015-07-16T03:42:26Z goglosh: I believe that's been done 2015-07-16T03:42:26Z goglosh: well it's been done with a space mission, I know that 2015-07-16T03:42:38Z pjb: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/575960623/ardusat-your-arduino-experiment-in-space 2015-07-16T03:42:47Z goglosh: damn! 2015-07-16T03:43:10Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:43:10Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:44:48Z oskarth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T03:44:48Z asedeno quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T03:45:12Z alms_clozure quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:45:17Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:45:18Z frankS2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:45:19Z bb010g quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T03:45:53Z ggherdov quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:46:17Z faheem_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:46:47Z splittist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:46:47Z cojy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:46:57Z lala quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:46:57Z lancetw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:49:00Z faheem_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T03:49:31Z wizzo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:50:34Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:50:40Z trig-ger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T03:50:58Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-16T03:51:10Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T03:53:24Z drmeister: Hi beach. 2015-07-16T03:54:00Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-07-16T03:54:03Z beach: drmeister: How are things going with Clasp? 2015-07-16T03:54:11Z aeth: pjb: we could have the first IRC bot in orbit, although the latency probably wouldn't be good. 2015-07-16T03:54:12Z drmeister: I think I have llvm inlining worked out. It requires all this source information to be set up properly or it triggers an assertion. 2015-07-16T03:55:06Z drmeister: The reason I'm doing all of this is (1) hopefully speed up bclasp (2) speed up cclasp. It will be used throughout the system. 2015-07-16T03:55:12Z pjb: aeth: it's low orbit, latency can be better than ground communications :-) On the other hand if we were to put it on geosynchronous orbit, or on the moon it'd be another thing. 2015-07-16T03:55:30Z aeth: IRC bot on the moon? :o 2015-07-16T03:55:43Z Bike: apollo retroreflectors 2015-07-16T03:56:06Z cojy joined #lisp 2015-07-16T03:56:13Z Bike: which is to say you can bounce radio off the moon, it works okay 2015-07-16T03:56:27Z drmeister: Basically, I have all of these C++ data structures that ideally I should manipulate and query using LLVM-IR. If I rely on function calls then it will slow things down. It's much easier to work with them from C++ because the C++ compiler knows their layout. So I wrote little functions that I call from Clasp generated code to access them. 2015-07-16T03:56:49Z drmeister: The idea from the beginning was to eventually inline them all. That's what I've been working on the last couple of days. 2015-07-16T03:57:43Z Bike: i have that in my toy lisp. i have learned that C inlining rules are a lot more complicated than i thought. 2015-07-16T03:57:49Z drmeister: Since my lingua franca is LLVM-IR I wanted to be able to inline functions written in one language inside the other. 2015-07-16T03:57:57Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-07-16T03:58:10Z frankS2 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T03:59:07Z l1x joined #lisp 2015-07-16T03:59:41Z decimation joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:00:19Z aeth: drmeister: wait, a Lisp that does LLVM? 2015-07-16T04:00:40Z aeth: awesome 2015-07-16T04:00:41Z drmeister: aeth: Yer not from around these parts are ya? 2015-07-16T04:01:01Z drmeister: aeth: I'm funning you - yes - a Common Lisp that does LLVM. 2015-07-16T04:01:15Z beach: drmeister: aeth doesn't strike me as a good listener. 2015-07-16T04:01:23Z aeth: drmeister: well I need a solution for deploying Lisp in the browser in the future (not near future), which means wasm, which means the easiest way of doing it would be llvm->wasm because that is already being done 2015-07-16T04:01:46Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:01:48Z kristof: People will not like me for this suggestion, but aeth, as of right now you can already use clojurescript. 2015-07-16T04:02:01Z drmeister: Back in an hour or so - I'm being summoned to play volleyball 2015-07-16T04:02:10Z aeth: beach: fun fact, that was the only section I did poorly on in the standardized tests in elementary school. The "listening" section 2015-07-16T04:02:16Z kristof: drmeister: At midnight? 2015-07-16T04:02:24Z aeth: Idk why anyone would put a "listening" section on a test 2015-07-16T04:03:08Z aeth: beach: but I suspect I miss a lot on IRC because I multitask when I'm on IRC and I'm terrible at multitasking 2015-07-16T04:03:09Z beach: kristof: It's only 21:00 in Vancouver. 2015-07-16T04:03:30Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:03:31Z kristof: beach: I thought he lives in Pennsylvania 2015-07-16T04:03:46Z beach: Yes, but that's not where he is right now. 2015-07-16T04:03:50Z pjb: aeth: there's no hurry, you can read the back log. 2015-07-16T04:04:11Z aeth: that's what I like about IRC, especially channels that don't move quickly like this one 2015-07-16T04:04:14Z kristof: reading the backlog of #lisp is probably not riveting 2015-07-16T04:04:56Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:05:24Z aeth: and thanks to a mix of grep and DuckDuckGo's "!gh" I find https://github.com/drmeister/clasp 2015-07-16T04:05:44Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T04:06:07Z Bike: so, apropos of nothing, lately i have realized the "listen" function exists and is pretty convenient. not only can you check for input on an interactive stream, it tests for eof on files 2015-07-16T04:08:05Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T04:09:41Z asedeno joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:09:45Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:10:43Z nyef: Bike: And now the horrifying bit: This is mostly to be used by functions called by the scheduler to see if a given thread is ready to run yet. 2015-07-16T04:11:10Z Bike: what D: 2015-07-16T04:11:31Z nyef: Yeah. LispM multiprocesing is insane. 2015-07-16T04:12:04Z aeth: Ok, I guess as soon as one of the garbage collectors used by clasp can run on WASM, clasp can hopefully run in the browser. I'm guessing that will be the hardest and last part, since WASM will probably not initially support garbage collection. 2015-07-16T04:12:11Z nyef: If a process needs to block on something, they get to supply a function to the scheduler to say whether or not they should be woken up again. 2015-07-16T04:12:26Z aeth: I guess that clasp is going to be the solution I'll be using (eventually) for WASM because WASM uses LLVM 2015-07-16T04:12:42Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T04:12:51Z nyef: So the scheduler calls all of these functions in turn, and if none of them indicate a required wake-up, it can sleep for a second or so and then try again. 2015-07-16T04:13:40Z Bike: that seems kind of underrestricted, but i don't know much about multiprocessing 2015-07-16T04:14:45Z kristof: Well it's a really dumb way to schedule things, for one. 2015-07-16T04:15:14Z nyef: My notes from four years ago say "This scheme is simultaneously inefficient, extremely flexible, and completely unimplementable on modern operating system APIs." 2015-07-16T04:15:34Z Bike: well at least i have the basic idea down then 2015-07-16T04:16:02Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T04:16:02Z oskarth joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:18:12Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:19:59Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:21:02Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T04:23:07Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:31:08Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:31:08Z pjb: You mean it was cooperative multitasking>? 2015-07-16T04:32:43Z nyef: pjb: No, it was preemptive, but when a thread chose to block it would supply a "predicate" that the scheduler would call to see if the thread should still be blocked. 2015-07-16T04:32:59Z pjb: I see. 2015-07-16T04:33:23Z beach: Must have been a great idea at the time when there was a single processor. 2015-07-16T04:33:38Z nyef: There's a difference between "don't run me again until this function returns true" and "don't run anyone else until I'm done". 2015-07-16T04:34:30Z nyef: beach: Single processor, and the default scheduler granularity was an entire second. 2015-07-16T04:34:38Z pjb: Well, the idea there is to let the scheduler test for wake up, instead of waking up the task to have it sleep again immediately because the conditions are not met. 2015-07-16T04:34:40Z beach: Heh, yes. 2015-07-16T04:34:48Z pjb: It's way more sophisticated than a simple semaphore. 2015-07-16T04:35:20Z nyef: pjb: Also way more fragile. 2015-07-16T04:35:35Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T04:35:47Z pjb: Assumedly, programmers were grown up and wouldn't give the scheduler a functions that took half an hour to determine whether to wake up the task or not.. 2015-07-16T04:35:58Z meiji11 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T04:37:29Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:37:31Z nyef: There was a special I/O stream that was used by the debugger if an error occurred within the scheduler thread, since the normal streams operated in terms of the UI layer, which required that the scheduler be in working order. 2015-07-16T04:38:26Z lala joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:38:29Z wizzo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:38:53Z lala is now known as Guest10289 2015-07-16T04:39:33Z nyef: Okay, I'm crashing now. G'night all. 2015-07-16T04:39:40Z beach: 'night nyef. 2015-07-16T04:41:05Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-16T04:41:54Z ahungry_: Ok, for the sluglisp thing I was working on, you can now search project readmes with a regex search (http://sluglisp.ahungry.com/search/web.*env for instance shows 4 packages that match the term web.*env) 2015-07-16T04:43:47Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T04:44:30Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-16T04:45:05Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:45:50Z Guest10289 quit 2015-07-16T04:45:57Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:46:06Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:46:07Z lancetw quit 2015-07-16T04:46:17Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T04:47:16Z 7GHAAP6P7 is now known as quazimodo 2015-07-16T04:47:43Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:47:44Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-16T04:48:02Z ahungry joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:48:09Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-16T04:48:31Z lisper29` left #lisp 2015-07-16T04:49:49Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:50:22Z Guest10289 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:50:29Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:50:40Z williamyao left #lisp 2015-07-16T04:50:49Z smith joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:50:54Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T04:51:08Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:52:25Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:52:48Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:53:48Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T04:55:14Z thedud joined #lisp 2015-07-16T04:56:52Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T04:57:23Z Guest10289 quit 2015-07-16T04:58:57Z lala joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:02:26Z decimation left #lisp 2015-07-16T05:05:08Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T05:05:21Z drmeister: Hello 2015-07-16T05:05:49Z oleo_: morning 2015-07-16T05:06:07Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:06:44Z akkad hunts for the static web site generator in CL 2015-07-16T05:07:24Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:11:33Z eazar_rough_time joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:12:26Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T05:13:37Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:17:24Z smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-16T05:17:47Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T05:19:55Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:20:20Z metaphysician joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:22:09Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T05:22:13Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T05:23:54Z drmeister: beach: I just repeated a test I ran a couple of days ago - my Fibonacci sequence demo in cclasp + llvm inlining is only 4x slower than C and SBCL. 2015-07-16T05:24:10Z akkad: coleslaw it is 2015-07-16T05:24:27Z drmeister: C++ --> 0.74 seconds. Clasp --> 3.17 seconds. 2015-07-16T05:25:09Z eazar_rough_time is now known as dwightd_eazar001 2015-07-16T05:25:49Z drmeister: SBCL is 0.55 seconds 2015-07-16T05:26:10Z akkad: got a copy of the actual code? 2015-07-16T05:26:53Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/nz4211xa/ 2015-07-16T05:26:58Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:27:16Z drmeister: vs... 2015-07-16T05:27:18Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/4BjGHzJo/ 2015-07-16T05:29:42Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:32:28Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:33:01Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:33:36Z defaultxr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T05:34:55Z drmeister: llvm inlining is worth a factor of 6x in speed 2015-07-16T05:35:33Z jackdaniel: mapcar bug fixed \o/ 2015-07-16T05:35:52Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:36:53Z drmeister: jackdaniel: The bytecode compiler in ECL - is that a full Common Lisp compiler written in C? 2015-07-16T05:37:38Z jackdaniel: drmeister: yes 2015-07-16T05:37:59Z jackdaniel: but mentioned bug was problem with lisp->c compiler, bytecode cmp was ok 2015-07-16T05:37:59Z akkad: wow that never completes on acl 10 2015-07-16T05:38:27Z drmeister: What is the rough speed difference between the bytecode compiler and the lisp->c compiler? 2015-07-16T05:39:10Z jackdaniel: haven't done any benchmarks, so don't know 2015-07-16T05:39:28Z drmeister: Who wrote the bytecode compiler? How long has it been in ECL? 2015-07-16T05:39:54Z jackdaniel: 2001, Juan Jose wrote it 2015-07-16T05:41:01Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:42:59Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-16T05:43:14Z drmeister: Hmm, my demo above runs in ECL in 0.155 seconds 2015-07-16T05:43:39Z jackdaniel: well, you've put a few declarations, C compiler should optimize it nicely 2015-07-16T05:44:00Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't be suprised, if fibn function have comparable speed as sbcl 2015-07-16T05:44:25Z metaphysician quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T05:44:39Z drmeister: Does ECL do any loop unrolling? 2015-07-16T05:45:04Z drmeister: I'm guessing here how it might improve on the C++ code above. 2015-07-16T05:45:56Z drmeister: Is there a way to get the C code that ECL generates? 2015-07-16T05:46:30Z jackdaniel: idk, but even if it doesn't, C compiler might do that 2015-07-16T05:46:33Z akkad: wow compile makes a massive difference 2015-07-16T05:46:42Z jackdaniel: there is 2015-07-16T05:47:34Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:48:21Z pjb: akkad: why do you think compilation was invented in the 50s? 2015-07-16T05:48:47Z jackdaniel: (setf c::*delete-files* nil) will preserve C files in cashe 2015-07-16T05:48:54Z jackdaniel: s/cashe/cache/ 2015-07-16T05:50:34Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T05:51:17Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-16T05:52:27Z akkad: pjb: sbcl sets an expectation unmet elsewhere :P 2015-07-16T05:53:57Z drmeister: Hmmm, I don't see the ~/.cache/common-lisp/ecl-xxx directory 2015-07-16T05:55:12Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T05:56:28Z akkad: ecl have a true compile? 2015-07-16T05:56:30Z jackdaniel: it must be something with your host 2015-07-16T05:57:11Z jackdaniel: akkad: ecl has lisp->c compiler and lisp->bytecode, former is compiled to native with host c compiler 2015-07-16T05:57:37Z akkad: say a compile on a function. would results be any different from just running it? 2015-07-16T05:57:51Z jackdaniel: akkad: yes 2015-07-16T05:58:00Z jackdaniel: try fibn pasted by drmeister 2015-07-16T05:58:32Z jackdaniel: it takes 0.7s with compiled code, while bytecode takes 120s 2015-07-16T05:58:42Z akkad: I am. 2015-07-16T05:58:51Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T05:59:48Z akkad: (compile 'fibn) seems to be no faster than not 2015-07-16T06:01:11Z jackdaniel: C-c C-c already calls compile 2015-07-16T06:01:33Z akkad: must be a reference to not lisp 2015-07-16T06:02:14Z jackdaniel: and calling compile just compiles function, try (time (fibn 10000000 78)) 2015-07-16T06:02:28Z akkad: sure, I called it after compiling 2015-07-16T06:02:35Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T06:02:37Z akkad: otherwise that's a very expensive compile 2015-07-16T06:03:10Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Interesting - there's a similar relative speed difference between ECL's bytecode compiler vs lisp->c vs Clasps bclasp compiler vs cclasp. 2015-07-16T06:03:11Z jackdaniel: compilation in ecl is bottleneck, that's true 2015-07-16T06:03:55Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:04:13Z akkad: I'm saying I compile before running fibn 2015-07-16T06:05:30Z jackdaniel: so you put defun in repl, ran it measuring time, called compile on function and ran again and see now difference? 2015-07-16T06:05:34Z jackdaniel: s/now/no/ 2015-07-16T06:06:29Z jackdaniel: drmeister: bclasp is cleavir backend and cclasp is c backend? 2015-07-16T06:07:52Z drmeister: jackdaniel: It's different. Both bclasp and cclasp are llvm-backend. bclasp is a compiler that works like an interpreter. cclasp uses Cleavir as its compiler. 2015-07-16T06:08:01Z wizzo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-16T06:08:01Z wizzo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:08:09Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:08:16Z jackdaniel: akkad: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151654 2015-07-16T06:08:28Z jackdaniel: ok 2015-07-16T06:09:57Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T06:10:17Z jackdaniel: not sure if it prints default safety/space/speed/debug values before entering form and adjusts it according to declarations later, or there is bug when compiling function after defun 2015-07-16T06:10:36Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:11:55Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T06:12:51Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T06:13:44Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T06:20:01Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-16T06:21:44Z ASau`` joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:22:06Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T06:23:35Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T06:24:14Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:24:17Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T06:25:46Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:26:52Z ASau`` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T06:27:52Z DalekBaldwin joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:28:05Z nml joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:28:09Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-16T06:29:51Z nml: Is there a way to list all 25 special operators? 2015-07-16T06:30:41Z jackdaniel: hmm, I'd go with (list 'let 'quote 'flet …) 2015-07-16T06:30:42Z jackdaniel: ;D 2015-07-16T06:31:24Z nml: jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-16T06:31:27Z Shinmera: (let (s) (do-external-symbols (c :cl) (when (special-operator-p c) (push c s))) s) 2015-07-16T06:31:48Z z0d: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm 2015-07-16T06:32:13Z nml: z0d: yes I come from there 2015-07-16T06:33:23Z nml: Shinmera: special-operator-p seems to be a nice hint. 2015-07-16T06:33:35Z Shinmera: I just gave you the complete code 2015-07-16T06:33:38Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-16T06:34:36Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:34:39Z nml: Shinmera: just fired my REPL and confirmed :D 2015-07-16T06:35:44Z DalekBaldwin: I'd do (loop for s being the symbols of :common-lisp when (special-operator-p s) collect s) 2015-07-16T06:36:41Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:36:57Z Shinmera: Bah, I always forget LOOP includes a symbol iterator. 2015-07-16T06:37:09Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:37:13Z jackdaniel: we ain't need no CL, loop subset is sufficient ^_^ 2015-07-16T06:37:21Z DalekBaldwin: I don't really like how the built-in symbol iterator requires an imperative style 2015-07-16T06:37:33Z Shinmera: What does that even mean 2015-07-16T06:37:43Z Shinmera: LOOP isn't any less imperative 2015-07-16T06:37:52Z DalekBaldwin: collect is less imperative than push 2015-07-16T06:37:59Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:38:40Z Shinmera: Either it's imperative or not. There's no "less" about it. 2015-07-16T06:38:46Z kristof: Sure there is. 2015-07-16T06:39:15Z kristof: Collect is pretty low on the "imperative" scale compared to push. 2015-07-16T06:39:24Z kristof: Well, not by much. 2015-07-16T06:39:37Z kristof: At least it's not a GOTO 2015-07-16T06:40:23Z nml: I really hope my editor can give a special color for those special operators 2015-07-16T06:40:37Z Shinmera: nml: Why do you want that? 2015-07-16T06:41:06Z nml: Shinmera: I'm new to CL. I think that's helpful for educational purpose 2015-07-16T06:41:29Z jackdaniel: nml: not really, fact they are special doesn't mean, they are special :D 2015-07-16T06:41:29Z Shinmera: I don't think so. 2015-07-16T06:41:54Z nml: maybe that's because my 'bottom-up' reasoning :) 2015-07-16T06:42:02Z z0d: nml: usually you don't need to care whether something is a special operator 2015-07-16T06:42:11Z z0d: especially when you're new to CL 2015-07-16T06:42:21Z jackdaniel: lisp is extensible, so practially there is no difference between your own 3-conditional-if and if 2015-07-16T06:42:33Z jackdaniel: except from what it does that is 2015-07-16T06:42:45Z DalekBaldwin: lisp-mode appears to highlight all of them except setq, function, multiple-value-call, load-time-value, and quote 2015-07-16T06:42:54Z nml: that all complicated stuffs come from simple atoms is too attractive to me (as a new learner) 2015-07-16T06:43:51Z ahungry: if you're using emacs, you can easily add new faces to string matches with something like (font-lock-add-keywords 'slime-repl-mode '(("something" . font-lock-keyword-face))) 2015-07-16T06:44:29Z ahungry: I have mine set to match on all the weird symbols I use with my glyphs package (λ, ƒ, →, α, etc.) 2015-07-16T06:45:15Z jackdaniel: DalekBaldwin: also check-* and with-* 2015-07-16T06:45:35Z nml: ahungry: I used to use emacs, but currently use sublime text 3. 2015-07-16T06:46:01Z jackdaniel: derp, nvm, read it backwards 2015-07-16T06:50:24Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T06:50:46Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:50:59Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:53:48Z drmeister: What does it take to guarantee that a function cannot form a closure? No FUNCTION, FLET or LABELS? 2015-07-16T06:54:30Z pjb: Well, given that flet and labels are special operators, yes, You'd have to include them. 2015-07-16T06:54:45Z pjb: Otherwise, FUNCTION is the only operator creating closures. 2015-07-16T06:54:53Z pjb: Notice that even with flet. 2015-07-16T06:54:58Z Shinmera: Eliminating all FUNCTION calls would be premature 2015-07-16T06:55:15Z Shinmera: You only need to watch out for (function (lambda ..)) 2015-07-16T06:55:25Z pjb: I mean, functions defined with flet/labels may refer to free variables in the enclosing scope, but this doesn't mean a closure, just function. You have to use FUNCTION to make the closure. 2015-07-16T06:55:45Z pjb: (let ((x 42)) (flet ((f () (icnf x))) #|no closure so far, just a reference to the outer scope 2015-07-16T06:55:54Z pjb: |# (function f) #|closure created|#) 2015-07-16T06:55:55Z pjb: ) 2015-07-16T06:56:11Z pillton: drmeister: (coerce '(lambda (x) (1+ x)) 'function) 2015-07-16T06:56:41Z Shinmera: pillton: His problem is detecting whether variables are closed over 2015-07-16T06:57:00Z Shinmera: So that example doesn't matter 2015-07-16T06:57:10Z Shinmera: As far as I understand the situation at least. 2015-07-16T06:57:12Z pjb: Notice notably that: In situations where a closure over the same set of bindings might be produced more than once, the various resulting closures might or might not be eq. 2015-07-16T06:57:40Z drmeister: pillton: Thanks - I didn't give enough context - what Shinmera said. 2015-07-16T06:57:46Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-16T06:58:17Z pillton: Well, in my example you just detect errors. :) 2015-07-16T06:59:08Z pjb: Therefore: (let ((x 42)) (flet ((f () (incf x))) (list (function f) (function f)))) could create two closures! 2015-07-16T06:59:29Z nml: I just found that defstruct is not made of special operators 2015-07-16T06:59:35Z Shinmera: drmeister: In any case, detecting whether things are closed over isn't that easy. There's plentyful of lambdas that won't close over anything. 2015-07-16T06:59:38Z pjb: (but no implementation does it in this case, so (mapcar (function funcall) (let ((x 42)) (flet ((f () (incf x))) (list (function f) (function f))))) returns (43 44) instead of (43 43). 2015-07-16T07:00:00Z drmeister: pjb: Thanks - I get that. 2015-07-16T07:00:59Z nml: Is it impossible to build defstruct solely from special operators? 2015-07-16T07:01:12Z pjb: Nope. 2015-07-16T07:01:20Z pjb: you can build defstruct with lambda. 2015-07-16T07:01:30Z pjb: ie. FUNCTION. 2015-07-16T07:02:00Z nml: can defstruct control the memory layout of the constructed objects? 2015-07-16T07:02:15Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:02:47Z arquebus joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:04:46Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:05:41Z nml: Maybe I shouldn't apply my imperative thinking on CL. All defstruct needs to do is to compose a literal recognizable by the compiler 2015-07-16T07:06:28Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:08:20Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-16T07:08:58Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:09:29Z bertro joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:12:47Z cheryllium quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T07:12:55Z pjb: nml: See: http://paste.lisp.org/+390S 2015-07-16T07:13:14Z pjb: nml: you control the memory layout by controling the lambda lists. 2015-07-16T07:13:35Z justinmcp quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-07-16T07:13:38Z thomas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T07:13:38Z pjb: ie. you just don't it's the compiler who decides how closures are stored. 2015-07-16T07:13:45Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T07:13:51Z thomas joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:14:21Z pjb: nml: just forget about memory layout. Even if you use an array of unsigned bytes, and store bit by bit stuff in it, you don't control the memory. The lisp system does. 2015-07-16T07:14:57Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:15:17Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T07:15:32Z nml: pjb: thanks. I tried to read the source of SBCL about defstruct. But when it comes to the %expander- part, it gets too heavy for me. 2015-07-16T07:15:45Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-16T07:16:05Z Shinmera: SBCL sources in general often aren't easy to decipher 2015-07-16T07:16:23Z Shinmera: You're better off first learning to use CL itself before diving into implementation mechanisms 2015-07-16T07:16:30Z kvsari quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T07:16:50Z nml: Shinmera: generally speaking, its code is nice (aesthetic aspect) 2015-07-16T07:16:54Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:16:55Z pjb: nml: in sbcl, structures would be implemented with binary code (assembler generated from the VOP). It's a different layer. I don't see that helps to understand anything. 2015-07-16T07:17:23Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:17:42Z nml: I don't know your standard. but because I come from C world, so mine might be lower 2015-07-16T07:17:49Z mea-culpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T07:18:12Z pjb: nml: in any case to describe stuff at the binary/assembler level, we draw little diagrams instead: this is totally unrelated to the actual workings of a native processor and its memory subsystem. So you could as well understand structures by using the lambda-calculus. At least, this remains at the level of lisp. 2015-07-16T07:18:37Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T07:19:00Z nml: pjb: alright 2015-07-16T07:19:08Z pjb: the thing is that implementation mechanisms are quite varied, depending on the implementation and the target machine. You can't count on it. We may give some explainations, but they are always only purely pedagogical: unrelated to the real world. 2015-07-16T07:19:17Z pjb: It's turtles all the way down. 2015-07-16T07:20:10Z Quadrescence quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T07:22:25Z nml: pjb: then how did the symbolics guys implement their OS? they would have to write, say device drivers ? If they actually implemented all software in lisp 2015-07-16T07:23:36Z keen__________21 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T07:23:58Z nml: nml: I just once heard of that, not really being familiar with the history 2015-07-16T07:24:12Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T07:24:40Z Shinmera: The drivers were in lisp indeed 2015-07-16T07:24:46Z |3b|: implementors know how things translate, so they can control the results 2015-07-16T07:24:58Z nml: Shinmera: yeah, that's cool 2015-07-16T07:25:04Z Shinmera: But Symbolics used their own machines, so they didn't have to write drivers for everything out there. 2015-07-16T07:25:07Z |3b|: (and more to the point, they define how things translate, so can rely on it) 2015-07-16T07:25:21Z z0d: and I guess the drivers were written in low-level Lisp 2015-07-16T07:25:41Z keen__________21 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:25:51Z |3b|: or just a constrained subset of normal lisp 2015-07-16T07:26:22Z nml: BTW, is there a way to print upper-layers of immediate representations in SBCL 2015-07-16T07:26:25Z nml: ? 2015-07-16T07:26:53Z nml: I know disassemble 2015-07-16T07:27:05Z nml: and compile-file with :trace-file option 2015-07-16T07:29:16Z nml: functions for outputting those IR would be handy. 2015-07-16T07:29:18Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:30:06Z nml: intermediate representation* 2015-07-16T07:30:43Z pjb: Basically, they wrote their own compiler to compile some special functions in a special way to make things happen in the hardware. 2015-07-16T07:31:12Z pjb: Just like sbcl compiles (defun car (x) (car x)) in a special way, and like it compiles the VOPs in a special way. 2015-07-16T07:31:38Z pjb: nml: perhaps you could ask in #sbcl, they must know there. 2015-07-16T07:31:47Z nml: pjb: ok 2015-07-16T07:33:37Z jackdaniel: nice phrase - "turtles all the way down" :) - never heard it before 2015-07-16T07:34:08Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down 2015-07-16T07:34:27Z jackdaniel: yes, I've checked it 2015-07-16T07:35:19Z jackdaniel: I know how to handle known unknowns, unknown unknowns are worse ;) 2015-07-16T07:35:44Z p_l: nml: device drivers on symbolics were all lisp 2015-07-16T07:35:53Z p_l: (and normal lisp at that, iirc) 2015-07-16T07:36:03Z dwightd_eazar001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-16T07:36:29Z pjb: On NeXTSTEP (Cocoa) you write device drivers in Objective-C. 2015-07-16T07:36:34Z p_l: there was support in symbolics runtime to do various things useful in writing non-consing code 2015-07-16T07:37:56Z p_l: other than the lisp-written OS, there was the microcode that helped implement the lisp instruction set, but it didn't contain magic drivers afaik except on VLM (because VLM lacked the physical hardware that would be normally polled by GC code) 2015-07-16T07:40:39Z sebbee quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T07:42:02Z arquebus quit (Quit: konversation disconnects) 2015-07-16T07:44:01Z nml: at first I thought they just implemented an assembler 'DSL' within their lisp (along with a dynamic linker etc) 2015-07-16T07:45:14Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:45:44Z bertro: any alternatives to `Allegro CL`? 2015-07-16T07:46:22Z AjaxCrixum joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:46:30Z AjaxCrixum: Any C users here? 2015-07-16T07:46:44Z p_l: bertro: a lot, depends what exactly you need 2015-07-16T07:47:17Z nml: AjaxCrixum: I am 2015-07-16T07:47:27Z p_l: bertro: SBCL and CCL are popular open source options, CMUCL, CLISP and ECL are also viable and useful, on the commercial front there's Lispworks 2015-07-16T07:47:43Z AjaxCrixum: nml: Would you mind if I PM'd you? 2015-07-16T07:47:56Z nml: alright 2015-07-16T07:47:57Z p_l: nml: the "assembler DSL" approach is used in Mezzano for some bits 2015-07-16T07:48:42Z bertro: p_l: could i PM you? 2015-07-16T07:49:22Z AjaxCrixum: "nml is away: I'm not here right now." 2015-07-16T07:49:27Z AjaxCrixum: l0l you got me xD 2015-07-16T07:50:58Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T07:51:12Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:51:31Z p_l: bertro: sure 2015-07-16T07:55:33Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-07-16T07:59:35Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:01:44Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-16T08:03:58Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T08:05:39Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:08:12Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T08:10:12Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:13:28Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:15:08Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T08:17:16Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2015-07-16T08:17:58Z sebbee joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:18:04Z sebbee: i am struggling to grasp dolist 2015-07-16T08:19:29Z sebbee: (dolist (x (list 1 2) (print x)) 2015-07-16T08:20:11Z jackdaniel: sebbee: (dolist (x (list 1 2)) (print x)) 2015-07-16T08:20:28Z ecraven: sebbee: (dolist (VAR LST) whatever ...) 2015-07-16T08:20:34Z jackdaniel: it's (dolist (elt lst result) body) 2015-07-16T08:20:35Z ecraven: you have (dolist (VAR LST whatever)) 2015-07-16T08:20:45Z jackdaniel: (result is optional) 2015-07-16T08:20:46Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:24:47Z Octophore quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T08:26:17Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:27:51Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:27:51Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T08:28:04Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:28:25Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T08:30:01Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:33:32Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:37:15Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:38:55Z pjb: bertro: http://cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation 2015-07-16T08:39:26Z bertro: thank you 2015-07-16T08:40:42Z madrik joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:41:03Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:41:16Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:44:26Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:46:25Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-16T08:50:50Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-16T08:51:01Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T08:51:19Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:55:38Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T08:56:03Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-07-16T08:56:26Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T08:59:41Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:00:31Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:00:56Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:05:25Z ronh_t is now known as ronh 2015-07-16T09:06:22Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T09:09:24Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:12:33Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:12:58Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T09:13:29Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:15:26Z dubkoidragon joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:15:42Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T09:16:03Z sebbee: (dolist (x (list 1 2) (print x)) 2015-07-16T09:16:17Z sebbee: (do list (var list) (whatever)) 2015-07-16T09:17:22Z pjb: sebbee: nope. 2015-07-16T09:19:16Z pjb: sebbee: (do ((current list (cdr current))) ((null current)) (let ((var (car current))) (whatever))) 2015-07-16T09:19:16Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:19:38Z pjb: sebbee: (eq 'dolist 'do) --> nil 2015-07-16T09:20:20Z eylusion quit 2015-07-16T09:21:07Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T09:27:43Z jackdaniel: sebbee: just do (dolist (v '(1 2 3)) (print v)) and check what happens 2015-07-16T09:28:36Z peterhil` quit (Quit: Must not waste too much time here...) 2015-07-16T09:29:03Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T09:30:11Z dubkoidragon: would someone be so kind as to point me in the right direction of a good starting point to learn lisp syntax, run my codes on my comp, and how to install needed things to run this code. Thanks 2015-07-16T09:30:51Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-16T09:31:21Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:31:36Z 64MADC7ZF quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-16T09:31:59Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T09:32:40Z Vityok: dubkoidragon: it looks like Practical Common Lisp is a very good starting point 2015-07-16T09:32:55Z Vityok: installing and setting up depends on what OS do you use 2015-07-16T09:33:08Z Vityok: but typically people use SBCL/CCL + Emacs/SLIME 2015-07-16T09:33:20Z dubkoidragon: windows 8 2015-07-16T09:33:32Z Vityok: meh 2015-07-16T09:33:51Z dubkoidragon: I'm very very new to lisp so I am quite lost to be honest in what thos thing you meantioned are 2015-07-16T09:35:15Z Vityok: if you want to avoid the hurdle, you can try downloading a freeware introductory version of the LispWorks (Personal Edition) 2015-07-16T09:35:16Z Vityok: http://www.lispworks.com/downloads/index.html 2015-07-16T09:35:57Z Vityok: it is a limited version of the full-fledged product, but it has an editor, interpreter, and plenty of documentation 2015-07-16T09:36:23Z Vityok: SBCL and CCL (Clozure CL) are Common Lisp implementations that are used to run the Common Lisp code 2015-07-16T09:37:16Z Vityok: Emacs is a program that is usually used to edit text, SLIME is a "plugin" for a convenient and interactive Common Lisp development 2015-07-16T09:38:10Z dubkoidragon: Ok, this help was greatly appriciated 2015-07-16T09:38:12Z dubkoidragon: thanks you 2015-07-16T09:40:23Z Vityok: dubkoidragon: you're welcome 2015-07-16T09:41:17Z Vityok: dubkoidragon: actually, GNU Emacs is built around a Lisp interpreter, but a different dialect 2015-07-16T09:41:37Z Vityok: GNU Emacs alone is sufficient for learning very basic Lisp 2015-07-16T09:41:51Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:42:04Z antoszka: Vityok: If you want to go the ccl/sbcl (common lisp implementations) + emacs-and-slime way, then there are prepackaged portable (as in: no installation required) bundles available for Windows. 2015-07-16T09:42:21Z antoszka: Vityok: Just unzip into a directory and run; preconfigured, ready to explore. 2015-07-16T09:42:33Z antoszka: Let me see what's more or less up to date. 2015-07-16T09:43:02Z dubkoidragon: ok so basically is it ok to say that just getting to the point of running my lisp code, it will be quite a bit harder than with pyton or ruby 2015-07-16T09:43:04Z antoszka: Vityok: http://www.iqool.de/lispstick.html ← yeah, this seems to be more or less current. 2015-07-16T09:43:04Z dubkoidragon: ? 2015-07-16T09:43:33Z antoszka: dubkoidragon: Not really, you need an editor and a compiler/interpreter if you want to think the ruby/python way. 2015-07-16T09:43:49Z dubkoidragon: ok but I don't need a compiler for py or ru 2015-07-16T09:44:07Z antoszka: dubkoidragon: Of course my previous lines about listpstick were addressed to you, not Vityok, sorry Vityok :) 2015-07-16T09:44:08Z dubkoidragon: bu ti think i understand what youre trying to say 2015-07-16T09:44:28Z dubkoidragon: oh ok thank you 2015-07-16T09:44:31Z dubkoidragon: i appriciate 2015-07-16T09:45:19Z antoszka: dubkoidragon: For running python/ruby code you need to install python/ruby. For running Common Lisp code you need an implementation of Common Lisp (like sbcl, ccl). There's really no practical difference. 2015-07-16T09:45:43Z antoszka: dubkoidragon: Internally the code is compiled, but so it is in Ruby 2.x (compiled to YARV), you don't need to care about it. 2015-07-16T09:46:48Z antoszka: dubkoidragon: But since Common Lisp is very good with interactive development (like doing most stuff in python/irb) we're recommending an editor and a „plugin” that takes advantage of that. Rather than just writing source files by hand and running them through a compiler/interpreter. 2015-07-16T09:46:58Z dubkoidragon: ahh I see, there's so much I still need to learn 2015-07-16T09:47:41Z antoszka: Yeah, take your time and ask :) 2015-07-16T09:48:41Z sebbee: jackdaniel: (dolist (v '(1 2 3)) (+ v 1)) yields nil 2015-07-16T09:49:02Z loke: sebbee: Yes. dolist doesn't return anything 2015-07-16T09:49:45Z loke: (unless you explicitly call RETURN of course) 2015-07-16T09:49:49Z dubkoidragon: ok guys, like I said I appriciate everythign you've told and taught me here tonight. I look forward to getting to know y'all more as I start my lisp journey. Cheers 2015-07-16T09:50:08Z Vityok: dubkoidragon: you can do it in stages and start with the most basic things and then as you understand more and more you will eventually get to the Emacs/SLIME thing 2015-07-16T09:50:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:50:27Z dubkoidragon: sounds good 2015-07-16T09:50:32Z antoszka: Has dubkoidragon been recommended Gentle Introduction yet? 2015-07-16T09:50:39Z Vityok: antoszka: not yet 2015-07-16T09:50:47Z antoszka: minion: tell dubkoidragon about gentle 2015-07-16T09:50:47Z minion: dubkoidragon: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-07-16T09:51:05Z sebbee: loke: i see 2015-07-16T09:51:12Z loke: minion: If one has _any_ previous programmign experience, PCL is much better. 2015-07-16T09:51:13Z minion: what would you do otherwise? 2015-07-16T09:51:24Z loke: minion: tell dubkoidragon about pcl 2015-07-16T09:51:24Z minion: dubkoidragon: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-16T09:51:28Z dubkoidragon: Oki dokie, I will be adding that to the lost of lisp related things I will do when I get up 2015-07-16T09:51:34Z dubkoidragon: list**\ 2015-07-16T09:52:24Z antoszka: I think there's actually quite a gap between Gentle and PCL, so I guess both could turn out useful. 2015-07-16T09:53:14Z dubkoidragon: ok I will look at both, and ask any further questions, which I fear may be quite a few :x 2015-07-16T09:53:44Z guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-16T09:54:17Z dubkoidragon: oki once agian thank you and I'll likely speak to you guys tommorrow 2015-07-16T09:54:20Z dubkoidragon: g'night !! 2015-07-16T09:54:22Z dubkoidragon: :) 2015-07-16T09:54:28Z sebbee: have a pleasant sleep 2015-07-16T09:54:34Z antoszka: Morning here ;) 2015-07-16T09:54:43Z dubkoidragon: are you in poland? 2015-07-16T09:54:57Z sebbee: (i'm actually doing PCL at the moment) 2015-07-16T09:55:04Z antoszka: dubkoidragon: Yep. 2015-07-16T09:55:14Z dubkoidragon: I thought so. I am polish, but currently live in Canada 2015-07-16T09:55:20Z dubkoidragon: dobranoc 2015-07-16T09:55:26Z dubkoidragon: g'night again 2015-07-16T09:55:27Z antoszka: Oh, cool. Feel free to join #lisp-pl as well. 2015-07-16T09:55:31Z dubkoidragon: will do :) 2015-07-16T09:55:32Z antoszka: When you get up :) 2015-07-16T09:55:42Z dubkoidragon: yup yup :) thx 2015-07-16T09:57:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T09:58:00Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T09:59:57Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:00:28Z dubkoidragon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:01:31Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:02:05Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:02:13Z decent quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:02:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:02:45Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:06:47Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:07:00Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:07:51Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:08:38Z decent joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:09:44Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:09:46Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:10:59Z jackdaniel: sebbee: try (let ((result 0)) (dolist (v '(1 2 3 4) result) (incf result v))) 2015-07-16T10:13:05Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:13:30Z Jaskologist_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:14:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:15:37Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-16T10:16:46Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:16:46Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:17:37Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:17:42Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:17:58Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:20:04Z DalekBaldwin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:20:43Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-16T10:22:05Z Akshay: why lisp not clojure ? 2015-07-16T10:22:52Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:23:02Z loke: Akshay: I think the opposite is a better question to ask 2015-07-16T10:23:11Z loke: Personally, I have no good answer to that question 2015-07-16T10:23:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:23:23Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:23:41Z loke: There are no benefits to clojure compared to Lisp 2015-07-16T10:23:44Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:23:56Z p_l: some of us just don't want to be dependant on JVM 2015-07-16T10:24:10Z loke: p_l: And if you really want to, there is ABCL 2015-07-16T10:24:13Z Vityok: there is Armed Bear CL 2015-07-16T10:24:30Z Akshay: yaah it's jvm, it takes up to 1m sometime just run hello world 2015-07-16T10:24:38Z H4ns: in #clojure: <Akshay> why clojure not lisp 2015-07-16T10:24:46Z Akshay: heheheh 2015-07-16T10:24:56Z H4ns: Akshay: learn both, decide yourself. 2015-07-16T10:25:12Z Vityok: Akshay: launching VM takes some time 2015-07-16T10:25:50Z Akshay: right 2015-07-16T10:26:23Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:27:26Z mc40 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:27:39Z eazar_sheep_coun joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:29:28Z eazar_sheep_coun is now known as eazar_sheepcount 2015-07-16T10:30:58Z jackdaniel: abcl speed is decent when all is already built 2015-07-16T10:31:24Z guthur`: Akshay: the tooling for CL is generally better than Clojure 2015-07-16T10:31:32Z jackdaniel: it doesn't compile not used parts, so first usage takes time (at least it's what I've heard) 2015-07-16T10:32:35Z guthur`: Also CL is relatively well specified, Clojure has some inconsistencies in my opinion 2015-07-16T10:33:13Z guthur`: it also bleeds to much of JVM out sometimes, again in imo 2015-07-16T10:34:45Z loke: Clojure has one good thing going for it: Clojurescript 2015-07-16T10:35:28Z guthur`: just don't try to use core.async with ClojureScript, there are occasionaly weird bugs 2015-07-16T10:35:46Z H4ns: guthur`: stop spreading the fud. 2015-07-16T10:36:01Z guthur`: H4ns:it's not fud i have experienced it very recently 2015-07-16T10:36:04Z loke: Guthur: I limit my exposure to core/async to the use of asyc http/post calls. 2015-07-16T10:36:16Z guthur`: and can point you to the still outstanding issue ticket 2015-07-16T10:36:25Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:37:43Z H4ns: guthur`: why don't you just do it? 2015-07-16T10:38:16Z guthur`: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/MATCH-87 2015-07-16T10:38:30Z guthur`: sorry duckduckgo was being bad to me 2015-07-16T10:38:37Z guthur`: and there is similar one from 2014 2015-07-16T10:38:54Z guthur`: but I'm not searching any more, you don't have to believe me if you don't want to 2015-07-16T10:40:24Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-16T10:40:28Z H4ns: guthur`: the bug, if i understand it well, revolves around the combination of core.async and core.match, and in particular involving interop. 2015-07-16T10:40:53Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:40:55Z H4ns: guthur`: that does not make a compelling argument for not using core.async with cljs for me. but have it your way. 2015-07-16T10:42:10Z guthur`: we had with AJAX request and so yes with an interop 2015-07-16T10:42:41Z guthur`: but it was a lot of wasted time head scratching to find it working when you had the match rules in one order but broken in another 2015-07-16T10:43:09Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:43:15Z guthur`: compounded by the fact CLJS dev environment, even with figwheel, leaves alot to be desire 2015-07-16T10:43:51Z lala quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-16T10:44:08Z H4ns: guthur`: as opposed to what exactly? 2015-07-16T10:44:35Z guthur`: well, browser dev is never pleasant, I'll give you that 2015-07-16T10:44:49Z guthur`: but there is at least some tooling around JS 2015-07-16T10:45:31Z guthur`: the error messages can be very cryptic with CLJS, FIGWHEEL, and REAGENT 2015-07-16T10:45:38Z guthur`: oops sorry too many caps 2015-07-16T10:46:11Z pjb: Too many off topic I'd say. 2015-07-16T10:46:45Z pjb: But you were trolled by H4ns. 2015-07-16T10:46:50Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:47:04Z jackdaniel: '(hue hue hue) 2015-07-16T10:47:35Z H4ns: guthur`: i've had my share developing javascript, and all tooling cannot make writing javascript not suck. the best thing that can be said about it is that it is deployed everywhere. 2015-07-16T10:48:21Z guthur`: Yeah, i can't say I'm a fan of web dev in any form, so i'll probably be a little surly about 2015-07-16T10:48:45Z guthur`: i actually would have preferred we had used JS just some it could have been delegated to someone else, hehe 2015-07-16T10:48:53Z guthur`: some/so 2015-07-16T10:49:26Z guthur`: any, too off topic 2015-07-16T10:51:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:51:34Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:51:35Z ynchromeshs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T10:52:43Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:52:44Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:52:58Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:53:04Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T10:54:40Z intinig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T10:55:30Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-07-16T10:58:53Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:00:20Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:02:16Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@*.79.116.238.250 2015-07-16T11:02:48Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:06:54Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-16T11:07:41Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T11:09:36Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:10:18Z overdrive quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-16T11:12:06Z sebbee: an Object cannot start with #\) 2015-07-16T11:12:25Z sebbee: offending line: (y-or-n-p "Ripped [y/n]: ")))) 2015-07-16T11:13:16Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T11:13:52Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:20:47Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T11:21:01Z akkad: PCL? 2015-07-16T11:21:18Z jackdaniel: to many closing parens I guess 2015-07-16T11:22:39Z jackdaniel: s/to/too/ 2015-07-16T11:22:41Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:25:34Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T11:27:44Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T11:28:22Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:28:24Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:28:44Z milanj joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:29:00Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:29:17Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T11:30:57Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:30:59Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T11:36:21Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T11:37:09Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-16T11:39:11Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:39:14Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T11:39:33Z sebbee: yea pcl 2015-07-16T11:39:39Z sebbee: i dont see naything wrong with me code 2015-07-16T11:39:49Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:39:50Z schjetne: What's the best way of adding a method that specifies on all classes with a given metaclass? 2015-07-16T11:41:44Z schjetne: Define a finalize-inheritance :after that calls adds the method to the target generic function? 2015-07-16T11:44:17Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T11:45:14Z jozip joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:46:14Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:47:26Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:48:08Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:48:41Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T11:50:12Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:50:17Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:54:01Z lala_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:54:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T11:54:05Z madrik quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T11:54:47Z nml quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 39.0/20150630154324]) 2015-07-16T11:56:27Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T11:57:26Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T11:59:36Z thedud quit (Quit: thedud) 2015-07-16T12:00:10Z eagleflo_ is now known as eagleflo 2015-07-16T12:02:06Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:02:24Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:03:01Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:03:36Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:04:53Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:05:32Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T12:05:42Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:07:49Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:08:16Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:08:27Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:08:35Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:11:00Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:13:55Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:15:45Z AjaxCrixum quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-16T12:19:54Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-16T12:21:07Z jozip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T12:23:48Z sebbee quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:24:38Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:31:47Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:31:50Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:32:29Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:32:31Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:34:59Z keen__________22 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:36:03Z eazar_sheepcount quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-16T12:36:18Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:38:06Z keen__________21 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:39:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:40:17Z Octophore joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:40:24Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T12:40:30Z grouzen quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-16T12:40:47Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:41:43Z smith joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:41:56Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-16T12:42:09Z metaphysician joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:46:30Z Akshay quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T12:50:33Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:50:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T12:58:52Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-16T12:58:57Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:05:26Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:08:09Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T13:09:58Z guthur` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T13:11:37Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:12:50Z madrik joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:18:26Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:18:35Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:20:12Z sepi`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T13:20:46Z akkad: (sqlite:execute-single db "select id from ? where value = ?" table value) ;; guessing you can't wildcard the table 2015-07-16T13:20:56Z sepi`` joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:22:35Z guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:23:19Z fe[nl]ix: akkad: no DBMS accepts that 2015-07-16T13:23:34Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:24:19Z akkad: yeah format to the resque 2015-07-16T13:24:22Z akkad: rescue 2015-07-16T13:24:27Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T13:25:08Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:25:53Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:25:56Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:26:27Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:30:23Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:31:27Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:32:40Z oleo: hello :) 2015-07-16T13:34:03Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:34:36Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:35:46Z ehu1 is now known as ehu 2015-07-16T13:39:19Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T13:40:19Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:40:48Z gabot joined #lisp 2015-07-16T13:41:34Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T13:51:44Z dim: sql is statically typed, apart in sqlite 2015-07-16T13:52:09Z dim: but even sqlite doesn't go as far as allowing dynamic relations 2015-07-16T13:53:00Z oleo: pgsql does ? 2015-07-16T13:53:05Z oleo: or does not ? 2015-07-16T13:53:33Z oleo: you can have procedures there afaik, does that make it not dynamic in a sense ? 2015-07-16T13:54:05Z dim: you may have fully dynamic SQL in procedures with EXECUTE 2015-07-16T13:54:13Z dim: that's akin to using format in your cl code 2015-07-16T13:54:19Z oleo: ok 2015-07-16T13:55:18Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:02:20Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T14:04:14Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T14:08:12Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T14:13:36Z rlatimore joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:14:27Z rlatimore quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T14:14:47Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:18:07Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T14:20:08Z gabot joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:23:36Z madrik left #lisp 2015-07-16T14:25:32Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:26:53Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-16T14:28:17Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T14:28:31Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T14:29:53Z troydm: are there any articles that describe SBCL's garbage collector and it's inner workings? 2015-07-16T14:30:54Z chelseaclinton joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:31:21Z guthur` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T14:37:22Z nyef: troydm: Not that I'm aware of, unfortunately. 2015-07-16T14:38:17Z dlowe: You could probably write a book's worth of documentation on how sbcl works 2015-07-16T14:38:31Z Xach: or an encmuclopedia 2015-07-16T14:38:34Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:38:39Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:39:00Z nyef: Encycmuclopedia. 2015-07-16T14:39:01Z dlowe: Xach: I built my first custom sbcl deb package this morning 2015-07-16T14:39:46Z chelseaclinton: dlowe: glad to hear1 2015-07-16T14:39:47Z dlowe: it took a lot more doing than I was expecting :p 2015-07-16T14:40:02Z dlowe: but I should be able to make a latest-stable sbcl ppa soon 2015-07-16T14:40:18Z Xach: dlowe: cool 2015-07-16T14:40:38Z schjetne: Anyone has any suggestions for my MOP problem? 2015-07-16T14:40:43Z Xach: dlowe: i wasn't going to harrass you at dinner today, i promise 2015-07-16T14:40:45Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:41:13Z copycat quit (Quit: copycat) 2015-07-16T14:41:26Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T14:41:31Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:41:46Z dlowe: No need. I'm motivated by your mere presence 2015-07-16T14:42:37Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:43:12Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:43:50Z bertro quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-16T14:44:12Z bertro joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:45:08Z bertro quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T14:47:35Z schjetne: I'll try implementing what I mentioned, looking for a way to create a method 2015-07-16T14:48:39Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:48:58Z splittist: schjetne: you want a function that, when called with any object having a particular metaclass, calls a particular function with that object? 2015-07-16T14:49:50Z schjetne: splittist: yes, that's it 2015-07-16T14:50:24Z bertro joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:50:59Z schjetne: I'm trying to write a finalize-inheritance :after method that adds a method to a particular generic function 2015-07-16T14:51:57Z nyef: Why not "just" have the metaclass cause a particular mixin class to be added? 2015-07-16T14:52:10Z schjetne: That works too, just not sure how to pull it off 2015-07-16T14:52:25Z splittist: schjetne: are there multiple metaclasses you want to call the function with (objects of), or just the one? 2015-07-16T14:52:26Z schjetne: I guess then I'd want to change it to :before and stuff in the mixin 2015-07-16T14:52:34Z schjetne: Just one 2015-07-16T14:53:19Z troydm: I remember I've heard someone saying that SBCL is using generational compacting mark-and-sweep algorithm 2015-07-16T14:54:00Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T14:54:12Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:54:19Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:55:43Z dlowe: troydm: sure, but I figured that was higher-level than you wanted 2015-07-16T14:56:07Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-16T14:56:17Z Cymew: Maybe #sbcl have someone online not listenin in here? 2015-07-16T14:56:38Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T14:57:48Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:58:06Z splittist: schjetne: could you specialize compute-class-precedence-list? Or is that just shifting the issue somewhere else? 2015-07-16T14:59:13Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-16T14:59:18Z schjetne: splittist: I tried to force my mixin class into the direct-superclasses slot, but I just get an 'inconsistent superclasses' error 2015-07-16T14:59:49Z schjetne: That was the :before finalize-inheritance 2015-07-16T15:00:05Z schjetne: Looking up compute-class-precedence-list 2015-07-16T15:00:10Z troydm: dlowe: nah, I don't want specifics, just was wondering about higher level overview 2015-07-16T15:00:48Z splittist: schjetne: f-i calls c-c-p-l 2015-07-16T15:01:29Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:01:49Z cadadar_ quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-16T15:02:38Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:02:40Z schjetne: splittist: it seems your suggestion works, thanks! 2015-07-16T15:02:53Z splittist: I think my work here is done (: 2015-07-16T15:03:02Z schjetne: Using (cons (find-class 'json-serializable-mixin) (call-next-method class)) for compute-class-precedence-list 2015-07-16T15:05:21Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:05:40Z trn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T15:05:56Z ajtulloch quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-07-16T15:07:00Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:07:49Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:09:47Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T15:10:08Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:12:00Z schjetne: I have the project here: https://github.com/gschjetne/json-mop 2015-07-16T15:12:36Z schjetne: I'll have to flesh out the README tomorrow with a usage example 2015-07-16T15:13:00Z schjetne: And write tests, there are probably a ton of edge cases that makes the whole thing fall apart 2015-07-16T15:13:15Z eudoxia: the MOP is interesting 2015-07-16T15:13:30Z oleo: i don't like sqls which use capitalcase for everything man..... 2015-07-16T15:13:36Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:13:54Z Fade: Art of the Meta Object Protocol is one of those books that really changed my thinking meat 2015-07-16T15:14:01Z eudoxia is currently performing a double hemispherectomy on Crane's MOPery 2015-07-16T15:14:42Z Cymew: I've bought AMOP. Maybe I should get around to reading it. 2015-07-16T15:14:56Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:15:24Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:15:25Z schjetne: eudoxia: I gave Crane a try, I like it. The idea is to create something similar for my Elasticsearch library 2015-07-16T15:16:48Z eudoxia: scharan: i saw your elasticsearch client, it looks good 2015-07-16T15:16:49Z trn joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:17:00Z eudoxia: whoops wrong person 2015-07-16T15:17:13Z eudoxia: schjetne: you mentioned you were working on this for your/a startup? 2015-07-16T15:17:20Z schjetne: Yes, that's right 2015-07-16T15:17:35Z schjetne: Right now it's completely lacking a notion of mappings, which is bad news if you're working with Elasticsearch. 2015-07-16T15:17:45Z schjetne: That's what I want to fix with CLOS and MOP 2015-07-16T15:18:00Z eudoxia: what's a mapping? I've only ever used Elastic superficially 2015-07-16T15:18:09Z schjetne: Also, I've wasted far too much time typing up those query objects, that should make it easier to extend as well 2015-07-16T15:18:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:19:08Z schjetne: eudoxia: basically a schema, telling Elasticsearch what types your JSON attributes are and how to reason about them 2015-07-16T15:21:17Z eudoxia: right 2015-07-16T15:21:21Z eudoxia: well good luck with that 2015-07-16T15:21:26Z schjetne: thanks 2015-07-16T15:21:49Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:23:06Z schjetne: Oh, I have to give Codex a try too, for documenting it. 2015-07-16T15:23:37Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-16T15:23:42Z schjetne: But I'm done for today, time to go out and enjoy the sun for a bit 2015-07-16T15:24:02Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-16T15:26:47Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:27:10Z psy joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:27:24Z psy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-16T15:27:53Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:28:18Z psy joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:32:34Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:33:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:33:10Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:36:06Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:37:42Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:39:42Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:40:20Z cyphase quit (Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number) 2015-07-16T15:40:50Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:41:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:41:12Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:42:38Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:42:38Z Ettore quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T15:42:47Z Guest26759 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:42:59Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T15:44:21Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:44:38Z David36 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:45:37Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T15:45:47Z Ettore1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:45:55Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:46:46Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:48:23Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T15:48:32Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:50:26Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-16T15:53:17Z Guest26759 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T15:53:18Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:54:27Z jozip joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:54:57Z Guest83330 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:56:42Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-16T15:57:34Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T15:59:34Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:04:47Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T16:06:26Z chelseaclinton: I am he who walks unseen 2015-07-16T16:06:34Z chelseaclinton quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-16T16:07:04Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:08:50Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:11:54Z jozip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T16:14:47Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T16:16:11Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-16T16:20:32Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:23:52Z lala_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-16T16:24:28Z psy quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-16T16:25:03Z Akshay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T16:25:14Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T16:25:18Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:26:03Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T16:26:12Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:28:45Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-16T16:37:32Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:44:55Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:45:13Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:47:15Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:47:53Z baotiao quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T16:50:09Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T16:52:44Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T16:54:42Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:55:22Z Octophore2 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:55:23Z Octophore2 quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-16T16:55:47Z Octophore2 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T16:58:06Z Octophore quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T17:00:32Z lala joined #lisp 2015-07-16T17:09:17Z David36 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-16T17:44:45Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-16T17:45:47Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T17:46:52Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-16T17:48:43Z badkins quit 2015-07-16T17:52:04Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-07-16T17:54:48Z David36 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T17:55:06Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-16T17:55:12Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T17:56:04Z sebbee joined #lisp 2015-07-16T17:56:05Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-07-16T17:56:15Z sebbee: how do I lookup function definitions in slime? 2015-07-16T17:56:20Z sebbee: oh and hi o/ 2015-07-16T17:56:33Z Xach: sebbee: M-. is one easy way 2015-07-16T17:56:54Z sebbee: dot? 2015-07-16T17:57:00Z Xach: Yes. 2015-07-16T17:57:06Z Xach: Pronounced "meta-dot" 2015-07-16T17:57:10Z flip214: is there some atomic way to do (SETF X (MAX x y))? 2015-07-16T17:57:25Z sebbee: thanks xach 2015-07-16T17:57:35Z sebbee: waiting for my slime to load up and ill check it immediatelingelly 2015-07-16T17:59:04Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-16T17:59:21Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T18:02:10Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-16T18:02:39Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:02:44Z sebbee: No known definition in common lisp user Xach 2015-07-16T18:03:06Z Xach: sebbee: then you must give the full, proper name for the function. 2015-07-16T18:03:16Z Xach: sebbee: what function were you trying to look up? 2015-07-16T18:05:26Z sebbee: reverse 2015-07-16T18:06:17Z aeth: hmm, yesterday or the day before I pointed out http://l1sp.org/html/ and http://lispdoc.com/ but apparently there's also a http://quickdocs.org/ 2015-07-16T18:06:27Z David36 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-16T18:07:11Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:07:20Z sebbee: Thanks aeth, but i think I phrased it wrong 2015-07-16T18:07:38Z aeth: that's unrelated to the current conversation, it was for one that happened way earlier 2015-07-16T18:07:56Z aeth: about sources of authoritative documentation because most people just point out the hyperspec 2015-07-16T18:08:01Z Xach: sebbee: if you put your cursor on the symbol REVERSE and use M-. you will possibly get to the implementation of REVERSE. 2015-07-16T18:08:16Z Xach: sebbee: if you put your cursor on empty space and use M-. you can then type REVERSE and possibly get the same result. 2015-07-16T18:08:17Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:08:22Z sebbee: I would like to know how reverse was done in clisp as in (defun reverse (list) (cons (cdr list) (car list))) or whatever the case 2015-07-16T18:08:28Z axion joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:08:40Z Xach: sebbee: it's possible that the source of REVERSE in CLISP is not easily available. 2015-07-16T18:08:56Z aeth: sebbee: What I do is I search Github. Usually there's a mirror for popular projects 2015-07-16T18:08:59Z Xach: sebbee: clisp is not written in common lisp as much as other implementations are. 2015-07-16T18:10:24Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T18:11:14Z aeth: It doesn't look like there's a recent mirror for clisp, you might have to find and download the source and grep -r it. 2015-07-16T18:11:35Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:11:52Z David36 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:12:10Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:12:24Z aeth: If you got clisp through a distro there are probably ways to get the exact source directly for the version you're using, e.g. on Fedora/CentOS there are sources you can download for any given RPM. 2015-07-16T18:12:43Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:13:12Z Ettore1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T18:14:33Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:14:55Z flip214: jasom: I could fix my OOM by realizing that recursing (with max depth ~50) is much better than a breadth-first search... 2015-07-16T18:15:01Z Fade: debian/ubuntu : apt-get source clisp 2015-07-16T18:15:06Z flip214: runs about 50 times as fast, and doesn't go OOM. 2015-07-16T18:15:23Z flip214: changing algorithms beats low-level tuning, what a surprise. 2015-07-16T18:15:42Z Fade: hrmn. www.clisp.org seems to be erroring out. 2015-07-16T18:15:49Z aeth: yes 2015-07-16T18:16:04Z aeth: for Fedora/CentOS I think it's: yumdownloader --source clisp 2015-07-16T18:16:23Z aeth: that covers the deb and rpm ways of doing things 2015-07-16T18:16:23Z Xach: Sourceforge is having Problems 2015-07-16T18:16:33Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:17:32Z aeth: (what I mean is Fade gave the deb way, I gave the rpm way, therefore we covered the two most common ways) 2015-07-16T18:17:34Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T18:18:01Z fe[nl]ix: oh my, what are we going to do without Sourceforge ? 2015-07-16T18:18:07Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-16T18:18:18Z Fade: there's going to be orphans. 2015-07-16T18:18:26Z aeth: where will I get all my free toolbars without Sourceforge? 2015-07-16T18:18:42Z fe[nl]ix: think of the children 2015-07-16T18:18:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:20:34Z Fade: it's a bit sad-making that clisp is housed on sourceforge. 2015-07-16T18:21:04Z aeth: Every old enough project that hasn't migrated is probably going to be using *CVS* and Sourceforge 2015-07-16T18:21:10Z aeth: The lucky ones are using SVN and Sourceforge 2015-07-16T18:21:13Z fe[nl]ix: it's from the time when there was no alternative 2015-07-16T18:21:24Z Fade: for sure 2015-07-16T18:21:37Z jackdaniel: migration is hard 2015-07-16T18:21:39Z Fade: sourceforge should have become github. it's a fairly stunning failure of imagination that it did not. 2015-07-16T18:22:04Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:22:34Z foom: I think they missed the will and the resources. 2015-07-16T18:22:48Z foom: I guess, failure of imagination for the people failing to fund the development of the site. 2015-07-16T18:22:52Z aeth: foom: Github didn't have resources either, they were a bootstrapped startup until fairly recently when they got funding 2015-07-16T18:23:12Z foom: they had resources -- that is, developers, working on the site. 2015-07-16T18:23:22Z jackdaniel: well, it's easy to say aposteriori, that github was an obvious hit, I think that before github everone would consider it risky 2015-07-16T18:23:40Z aeth: github was definitely not an obvious hit, otherwise I would've used a different username 2015-07-16T18:23:41Z foom: SF was ALREADY it, though, they just let it flounder. 2015-07-16T18:23:57Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:24:30Z foom: If they'd kept up with developing the site, they could've kept the users, they probably had a presence for like 90% of projects at one point. 2015-07-16T18:24:33Z eudoxia: the point is though SF is fucked and everyone who has projects there should clone them to github 2015-07-16T18:24:44Z aeth: What github has, though, is a nice web interface. I kind of wish Lisp websites had better UIs. (Lisp websites tend to be so outdated that by changing your browser's default font, you can greatly improve the site. Yes, that's right. No CSS.) 2015-07-16T18:25:00Z foom: Why should you use CSS on a plain document? 2015-07-16T18:25:08Z eudoxia: because it looks better 2015-07-16T18:25:23Z foom: Someone should change the browser default so that it looks better, then. :) 2015-07-16T18:25:29Z eudoxia: motherfuckingwebsite.com is nice and all 2015-07-16T18:25:32Z eudoxia: but doesn't sell 2015-07-16T18:25:37Z aeth: foom: Honestly, I think you should even use a web font but that's probably beacuse I'm on Linux so I'm not used to seeing the styles people use when they don't use web fonts. 2015-07-16T18:25:56Z aeth: If you use a nice webfont and a nice simple CSS, you probably don't need much else in design 2015-07-16T18:26:04Z aeth: A lot of modern design is useless, yes 2015-07-16T18:26:22Z foom: Does everyone choose a new font for every word document they write? 2015-07-16T18:26:23Z foom: no. 2015-07-16T18:26:41Z eudoxia: just using a nice web font gets you 30% of the way to a good website 2015-07-16T18:26:48Z foom: Sorry, ranting about web crap is useless, I'll just stop. 2015-07-16T18:26:50Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:26:56Z eudoxia: foom: web sites aren't documents, they are advertisements 2015-07-16T18:26:57Z aeth: No, I don't mean choose a new font. I mean, choose one font that everyone will be able to use. You can't do that without webfonts, unfortunately. 2015-07-16T18:27:03Z fe[nl]ix: when I push to github and I have a tab open on Github on that pull request, it changes to "merged" within 2 seconds 2015-07-16T18:27:08Z fe[nl]ix: that's *very* impressive 2015-07-16T18:27:20Z eudoxia: fe[nl]ix: i noticed that too, do they use websockets or something 2015-07-16T18:27:33Z Fade: github is an impressive application. 2015-07-16T18:27:53Z aeth: Without web fonts if you do, say, "Times New Roman" or "Arial" you're not going to have that same font visible on Linux systems unless someone copied and pasted them to their font folder from their Windows partition (most people probably don't, and a few fonts that way wind up looking awful on Linux) 2015-07-16T18:27:58Z bytecrawler joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:28:25Z fe[nl]ix: the internal systems we have at work aren't that well done :D 2015-07-16T18:28:37Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:28:39Z foom: why would you say times new roman or ariel, though? 2015-07-16T18:28:44Z foom: how about "sans-serif" 2015-07-16T18:28:47Z jackdaniel: #lispweb maybe :p 2015-07-16T18:28:54Z foom: wait, I said I would stop 2015-07-16T18:28:57Z foom: damnit 2015-07-16T18:30:05Z vrrm joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:30:21Z aeth: foom: if you use sans-serif you can have it look wildly different on different platforms, especially now that there are some exotic platforms like game consoles and smartphones 2015-07-16T18:30:47Z aeth: You have 4 browsers on 3 desktop OSes, different versions of those OSes and browsers, and then lots of other devices. Way too many possible fonts. 2015-07-16T18:31:23Z aeth: and yeah this is #lispweb 2015-07-16T18:32:41Z sebbee: wait is clisp not common lisp 2015-07-16T18:32:57Z Fade: clisp is an implementation of the common lisp standard. 2015-07-16T18:33:02Z aeth: clisp is Common Lisp, but it's also a name that is probably used by uncreative people not realizing that the name is already taken 2015-07-16T18:33:09Z aeth: So if you're searching repos for it you might not get *the* clisp 2015-07-16T18:34:21Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:34:50Z aeth: e.g. if you search Github the first result isn't a mirror of clisp the Common Lisp, but a port of a toy Lisp. https://github.com/search?q=clisp 2015-07-16T18:35:24Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T18:36:43Z brpocock: FWIW, Fedora 22 ships v 2.49 with a release tag 16.20130208hg … so I guess it's on a Mercurial server somewhere. 2015-07-16T18:36:56Z aeth: somewhere 2015-07-16T18:37:25Z aeth: I checked https://savannah.gnu.org/ because clisp is a GNU project iirc and the only result I get is: https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/libxml-clisp 2015-07-16T18:37:40Z brpocock: facepalm … SF. I didn't realize they had Hg @ SF. Sorry, no help there. 2015-07-16T18:39:03Z Xach: foom: supper tonight? 2015-07-16T18:40:56Z brpocock: http://mirrors.cat.pdx.edu/fedora/linux/releases/22/Everything/source/SRPMS/c/clisp-2.49-16.20130208hg.fc22.src.rpm — is at least one mirror until SF comes back to life, though. 2015-07-16T18:41:40Z aeth: yes. Fedora's version might be out of date, but I'm not sure if clisp is being actively updated 2015-07-16T18:41:41Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:42:27Z rpg: aeth: I believe that people are working on it, but it hasn't seen any releases in many years now. 2015-07-16T18:42:43Z Xach: There was recently a request for new maintainers 2015-07-16T18:42:45Z aeth: right, some projects just don't get updated very often, I don't mean to imply that it's dead 2015-07-16T18:43:05Z Xach: I don't mind implying that it's near death, unless someone comes in to support it. 2015-07-16T18:43:09Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T18:43:28Z rpg: aeth: YMMV, but I haven't enjoyed it compared to CCL or SBCL (or commercial ACL). 2015-07-16T18:43:41Z aeth: Why did SBCL win? 2015-07-16T18:43:49Z aeth: I started coding Lisp long after SBCL won 2015-07-16T18:44:05Z aeth: What does SBCL do in its design that makes people prefer it? 2015-07-16T18:44:09Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:44:13Z aeth: (at least on Linux) 2015-07-16T18:44:16Z Fade: it generates very fast code from its compiler. 2015-07-16T18:44:17Z Xach: "win" is pretty loaded. 2015-07-16T18:44:31Z Fade: it runs on a lot of platforms. 2015-07-16T18:44:35Z Xach: There are plenty of other lisps that are not as widely used than SBCL that haven't "lost" 2015-07-16T18:44:44Z brpocock: The BSD license helped, that whole (L)LGPL thing is a problem. And it's pretty complete (to the standard), and does pretty fast code. 2015-07-16T18:45:00Z rpg: From my POV SBCL and CCL seem to have the most active communities of maintainers/developers. Very different models for their communities, though. 2015-07-16T18:45:21Z brpocock: (not to pick a fight on licenses, just that the (L)LGPL is a bit murky with distributing Lisp images) 2015-07-16T18:45:22Z Xach: I use SBCL because it works well on linux, it's fast, it makes a good show of standards compliance as a priority, it's easy to build from scratch, I feel like I can talk to the developers if I need to 2015-07-16T18:45:50Z smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-16T18:46:20Z aeth: brpocock: yes unfortunately I have to agree that some people don't like (L)LGPL. At this point I think I'm going to limit the licenses I personally release under to MIT and (A)GPL 2015-07-16T18:47:13Z brpocock: My main Lisp products are internal-use-only or AGPL, but I have eg. a game that's got ECL linked in and we've got to jump hoops for the LGPL thing. 2015-07-16T18:47:38Z aeth: ah 2015-07-16T18:48:21Z aeth: What I'm probably going to wind up doing is releasing a bunch of libraries under MIT even though my applications are probably going to be GPL because otherwise people will just use the roughly equivalent permissively licensed libraries and nothing's gained by making them GPL imo 2015-07-16T18:48:30Z foom: LLGPL is a really irritating license 2015-07-16T18:48:50Z foom: Xach: supper? 2015-07-16T18:49:41Z aeth: Actually, AGPL is probably better than GPL for Lisp. Things are going to get really messy really quickly with web stuff. 2015-07-16T18:50:09Z Xach: foom: yeah. small meetup tonight at mary chung. 2015-07-16T18:50:49Z foom: AGPL is fine if your goal is for people not to use your stuff. 2015-07-16T18:51:20Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:51:36Z H4ns: it won't be used, but it will be FREE! 2015-07-16T18:51:56Z aeth: foom: AGPL would be for things like e.g. a text editor. MIT would be for things like e.g. all the libraries I'll need to write in order to get that editor to actually run 2015-07-16T18:54:36Z aeth: found it, thanks cliki. https://www.gnu.org/software/clisp/ 2015-07-16T18:54:52Z aeth: some sort of mirror to the clisp site that's down 2015-07-16T18:55:10Z gendl__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T18:55:15Z aeth: and one of the links appears to be ftp for clisp: ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/clisp/ 2015-07-16T18:55:16Z gendl___ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:55:46Z aeth: sebbee: here's your source code for clisp. (I think) ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/clisp/release/2.49/ 2015-07-16T18:56:03Z sebbee: tyvm 2015-07-16T18:56:06Z aeth: I found the site from http://www.cliki.net/clisp 2015-07-16T18:56:18Z fe[nl]ix: in a sense it's too bad because clisp is one of the fastest interpreters I've ever seen 2015-07-16T18:56:19Z palter joined #lisp 2015-07-16T18:56:44Z fe[nl]ix: and the bytecode it produces is really small compared to SBCL or even CCL fasls 2015-07-16T18:57:49Z Fade: I use it to debug gnarly loops from time to time. 2015-07-16T18:57:59Z fe[nl]ix: that too 2015-07-16T18:58:01Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-16T18:58:25Z Fade: did the current clisp maintainer send out a message requesting a successor? 2015-07-16T18:58:26Z fe[nl]ix: its loop was implemented from scratch, whereas most others started from the old MIT implementation 2015-07-16T18:58:35Z fe[nl]ix: Fade: yep 2015-07-16T18:58:45Z Fade: no response? 2015-07-16T18:58:53Z fe[nl]ix: not publicly 2015-07-16T18:58:57Z Fade: :( 2015-07-16T18:59:07Z aeth: I can't confirm that the gnu.org site is ismilar to clisp.org because there's no Archive.org page for clisp.org thanks to robots.txt: https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.clisp.org 2015-07-16T18:59:18Z aeth: wow clisp is trying hard to be inaccessible 2015-07-16T18:59:24Z fe[nl]ix goes home 2015-07-16T18:59:42Z fe[nl]ix: I'm going to try migrating all CFFI bugs from Launchpad to Github 2015-07-16T18:59:51Z Fade: nice 2015-07-16T19:00:16Z aeth: I wonder how long it'll be until we all have to migrate from Github. 2015-07-16T19:00:44Z cluck: aeth: https://www.gnu.org/software/clisp/ 2015-07-16T19:01:18Z Bike: prophecy speaks of a dark age to come, when the planets align and the clouds show a pentagram. at that time, github will be bought by whoever's fucking up sourceforge 2015-07-16T19:01:19Z aeth: cluck: yes, I found that from cliki, I can't confirm that it's a mirror of what clisp.org looks like because we cannot access the old site. 2015-07-16T19:01:20Z eudoxia: aeth: now, today 2015-07-16T19:01:30Z eudoxia: please 2015-07-16T19:01:42Z aeth: Bike: Even better, Microsoft buys Github :-P 2015-07-16T19:02:01Z |3b|: yeah, that looks like the clisp site usually does 2015-07-16T19:03:16Z cluck: ..how it has looked since the '90s 2015-07-16T19:03:18Z cluck: ;) 2015-07-16T19:03:22Z aeth: I still think it's inevitable that one day Microsoft will change its name to Macrosoft and migrate everyone to Lisp# 2015-07-16T19:04:21Z vrrm quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T19:05:04Z aeth: What's sad is Lisp# would actually solve many issues people have with Lisp because you would be able to access C# libraries, so it would sort of be like Clojure with the JVM 2015-07-16T19:05:13Z Patzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T19:05:30Z Fade: I think there's a clojure port to C# 2015-07-16T19:05:35Z aeth: yes, probably 2015-07-16T19:05:41Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:05:50Z aeth: there might even be a Common Lisp on .NET 2015-07-16T19:06:34Z aeth: cluck: clisp's page looks at least 5 years newer than the hyperspec :-p 2015-07-16T19:07:04Z aeth: It's fancy. It uses tables. 2015-07-16T19:07:22Z aeth: It even uses a .png instead of (non-animated) .gif files 2015-07-16T19:08:10Z cluck: aeth: hey, clisp has the hyperspec in info format! 2015-07-16T19:08:18Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T19:08:54Z aeth: The info format? wow, we really are living in the future. 2015-07-16T19:11:00Z jasom: Fade: clojre was originally developed on both the CLR and JVM 2015-07-16T19:11:15Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:11:28Z jasom: Is it legal to distrubite the hyperspec in info format? I thought you couldn't modify it 2015-07-16T19:11:36Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:12:15Z aeth: jasom: I think you can compile a tex version of format yourself into lots of different formats, someone linked to something like that (not the hyperspec though) a week or so ago here 2015-07-16T19:12:28Z David36 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-16T19:12:29Z aeth: s/format/the spec/ 2015-07-16T19:12:33Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: not if it's built from the draft spec 2015-07-16T19:12:46Z fe[nl]ix: which was distributed as TeX file 2015-07-16T19:13:26Z Xach: jasom: no, it isn't legal. 2015-07-16T19:13:36Z Xach: "hyperspec" vs "spec" 2015-07-16T19:14:00Z fe[nl]ix: the usual trick that standard committees use: distribute a last draft that is basically identical to the final version 2015-07-16T19:14:06Z foom: Clisp HAD the spec converted to info format. Didn't they remove it from their distribution, because of unclear licensing? 2015-07-16T19:14:15Z cluck: aeth: jokes aside, it can actually render beautifully in emacs (lilypond too uses it to great effect, images and everything) 2015-07-16T19:14:35Z srcerer quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 39.0/20150630154324]) 2015-07-16T19:14:46Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:15:21Z pranavrc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T19:15:43Z j_king: hi Fade :) 2015-07-16T19:16:12Z David36 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:17:36Z dlowe: I'm working on a hyperspec compiler right now 2015-07-16T19:17:49Z dlowe: It'll be ready "soon" 2015-07-16T19:17:59Z Xach: dlowe: hopefully by 6:30pm 2015-07-16T19:18:05Z dlowe: not that soon. 2015-07-16T19:18:12Z srcerer joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:18:21Z dlowe: I spent my free hour today doing the PPA 2015-07-16T19:18:43Z Xach: prepare for scowls!! 2015-07-16T19:19:17Z foom: what's a hyperspec compiler? 2015-07-16T19:19:36Z foom: TeX -> web spec? 2015-07-16T19:20:34Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:21:59Z foom: Be prepared for a long discussion about how the TeX spec is not licensed for you to use it and it's illegal even though everyone intended it to be public domain they forgot to make it so, also you're hurting lisp because it's not even the final copy of the spec so it doesn't have the fairy-dust sprinkled on it, and also now people won't buy the ansi standard so who will pay for the next spec development, maybe you should ask them to license 2015-07-16T19:21:59Z foom: you the ACTUAL spec. 2015-07-16T19:22:30Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:22:35Z aeth: the next spec? 2015-07-16T19:22:41Z fe[nl]ix: foom: you'd make an excellent polemicist 2015-07-16T19:22:48Z aeth: foom: Ok, it's confirmed, CL is getting another spec :-p 2015-07-16T19:22:56Z David36 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-16T19:23:04Z aeth: I hope you have a source 2015-07-16T19:23:58Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T19:24:40Z dlowe: foom: I'll just disavow any knowledge of it. 2015-07-16T19:25:17Z sebbee quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-16T19:25:48Z foom: SGTM 2015-07-16T19:25:49Z David36 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:26:04Z dlowe: It will simply appear, unadorned by ownership with a Creative Commons license, and my own project will be coming out "soon" 2015-07-16T19:26:54Z eudoxia: it would be great to have the spec in a greatly simplified XML or something 2015-07-16T19:27:05Z eudoxia: like, basically just the links and semantic markup 2015-07-16T19:27:31Z aeth: XML? 2015-07-16T19:27:45Z aeth: This is #lisp just have it in a .sexp format 2015-07-16T19:27:53Z eudoxia: nothing wrong with that for cold data storage 2015-07-16T19:28:15Z aeth: if it's in .sexp you can just really easily load it into SLIME 2015-07-16T19:28:24Z dlowe: yeah, I did that already. 2015-07-16T19:29:10Z eudoxia: dlowe: can we get that from your project too so others can compile it in their own ways 2015-07-16T19:29:34Z eudoxia: i'd like to create a repo with an HTML version and really CSS the fuck out of it 2015-07-16T19:29:36Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-16T19:29:56Z dlowe: well, that's my plan. 2015-07-16T19:30:28Z aeth: eudoxia: technically I think you can just insert CSS to your browsing experience of the original Hyperspec 2015-07-16T19:30:36Z dlowe: I'm still working on getting everything nested properly. 2015-07-16T19:30:47Z eudoxia: aeth: right, but that's useful to *me*, not to *others* 2015-07-16T19:30:52Z aeth: I modify Hacker News to give it a maximum width so I can read it on a widescreen (wow it's like the future or something) 2015-07-16T19:31:03Z aeth: (widescreens? what's next? VR?) 2015-07-16T19:31:29Z aeth: Unfortunately Wikipedia isn't simple so I haven't found an easy way to make it readable on 1080p 2015-07-16T19:31:32Z Shinmera: aeth: You cannot because it's not usefully formatted. TeX->HTML produces unstructured code that is impossible to generally mark up nicely unless you do it for each page separately. 2015-07-16T19:31:48Z Shinmera: And I pity the fool who attempts that. 2015-07-16T19:31:50Z aeth: ah 2015-07-16T19:32:09Z eudoxia: you can't do it the simple way 2015-07-16T19:32:19Z aeth: no, I understand 2015-07-16T19:32:28Z aeth: some websites are easier than others to update 2015-07-16T19:32:30Z eudoxia: but you can parse the TeX with shinmera's parser, then go through it and write, say, XML tags to a file 2015-07-16T19:32:54Z eudoxia: ie, write '<section>' when you encounter a '\defineSection' and '</section>' when you encounter an '\endSection' 2015-07-16T19:33:13Z eudoxia: then you parse the properly nested XML 2015-07-16T19:33:48Z eudoxia: oh also you have to take into account the TeX macros and abbreviations defined in the spec 2015-07-16T19:34:18Z aeth: why write <section> ... </section> when you can write this? (:section ...) 2015-07-16T19:34:49Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T19:35:06Z eudoxia: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2015-07-16T19:35:53Z eudoxia: XML/JSON/YAML are well-specified, there is no agreed-upon S-exp notation (e.g. CL's runtime-modifiable syntax, Clojure's EDN, etc.) 2015-07-16T19:36:07Z eudoxia: i like well specified things. i know they will run in the future. 2015-07-16T19:37:56Z whiteline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T19:38:16Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:38:21Z Xach: hmm, the lisp supper is getting kind of crowded. 2015-07-16T19:39:02Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-16T19:39:59Z dim: like how many of you guys? 2015-07-16T19:40:16Z dim: maybe I should run a Common Lisp Meetup in Paris and see what happens ;-) 2015-07-16T19:40:28Z aeth: eudoxia: I'm actually going to write a well-specified CL subset for s-expressions so I can use s-expressions as data where possible. 2015-07-16T19:40:53Z eudoxia: aeth: +1 2015-07-16T19:41:22Z aeth: what I'm probably going to do is use the .sexp extension for everything and make the first line be an s-expression that gives you information about what it is and does 2015-07-16T19:42:05Z jasom now wonders how many lispers there are in Santa Barbara 2015-07-16T19:42:31Z Xach: dim: ~10 right now 2015-07-16T19:42:58Z Xach: dim: the last dinner we had, people kept arriving, like the dwarves in the hobbit, until we spilled over into 3 tables 2015-07-16T19:43:39Z dim: I like the comparison ;-) 2015-07-16T19:44:13Z dim: Xach: have fun, 10ish is a pretty good number already! 2015-07-16T19:44:19Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T19:44:24Z aeth: I'm writing a game engine (see #lispgames for others who are doing similar things) and games are very data driven. I don't have control over all of the data formats obviously (e.g. images, audio, etc.) but for things like configuration, AI, etc., it would be very easy if I just do it in s-expressions so I am going to 2015-07-16T19:45:31Z Xach: dim: yes, quite. 2015-07-16T19:45:38Z aeth: (binary formats wouldn't be good in s-expressions, anyway) 2015-07-16T19:45:39Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:45:52Z Xach: dim: we need to have one more often so fewer people show up :) 2015-07-16T19:46:02Z jasom: Xach: I'm guessing this isn't in Maine? 2015-07-16T19:46:21Z David36 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-16T19:46:34Z Xach: jasom: i took the train from maine to just north of jamaica plain 2015-07-16T19:46:41Z Xach: jasom: the dinner will be in cambridge, ma 2015-07-16T19:46:47Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:46:54Z Dasyatid1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:46:59Z aeth: Are there any issues with simply compressing s-expressions for e.g. save files? I don't think that will be a problem. A lot of games seem to just have some sort of text format that is then compressed for their saves. 2015-07-16T19:47:02Z Xach: our fair city 2015-07-16T19:47:06Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T19:47:20Z brpocock: foom: I dunno about CLISP, but a CL(H)S is in GCL in TeXinfo 2015-07-16T19:47:41Z jasom: I'm going to be in Boston for 2 hours in a little over a week (flying out of Logan) 2015-07-16T19:47:46Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T19:48:59Z pjb: aeth: cmucl executable is named lisp. cmucl is also one of the oldest CL implementations on unix. 2015-07-16T19:49:43Z aeth: pjb: is this re: sbcl being so popular? 2015-07-16T19:49:51Z aeth: I guess that would make sense, if it was one of the first 2015-07-16T19:49:57Z aeth: (as cmucl) 2015-07-16T19:50:04Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T19:52:47Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-16T19:54:48Z aeth: also it seems like all of the sourceforge-hosted websites are down 2015-07-16T19:54:54Z aeth: e.g. http://maxima.sourceforge.net/ 2015-07-16T19:54:58Z oleo: yes 2015-07-16T19:55:00Z oleo: they are 2015-07-16T19:56:02Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T19:56:09Z dim: Xach: is the pgloader twitter "trolling" (not sure yet) coming from your diner table? ;-) 2015-07-16T19:56:14Z mishoo__ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-16T19:57:03Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T19:57:15Z pjb: cluck: it's gcl that has the hyperspec in info (from TeXInfo), not clisp. But clisp has a custom:*browser* variables that let it ask your browser to display documentation and hyperspec on DESCRIBE and DOCUMENTATION calls. 2015-07-16T19:57:16Z brpocock: “SF.net Operations ‏@sfnet_ops 5 hours ago #SourceForge There's instability and frequent 500 errors on the SourceForge site currently. We're working on getting this fixed asap.” 2015-07-16T19:57:43Z pjb: aeth: info is very nice a file format for documentation. 2015-07-16T19:57:45Z Xach: dim: nope 2015-07-16T19:57:53Z aeth: pjb: well it's nice in emacs 2015-07-16T19:57:58Z pjb: exactly. 2015-07-16T19:58:16Z pjb: jasom: I believe gcl project got permission. 2015-07-16T19:58:16Z aeth: people's opinions on info probably depend on whether they view it in the terminal or in emacs 2015-07-16T19:58:30Z brpocock: It's not terrible in gnome-help, but it could use some love. 2015-07-16T19:59:45Z dim: Xach: then I'm surprised at the out-of-nowhere pgloader mention, but it means I have users, so I'm happy about it ;-) 2015-07-16T19:59:50Z pjb: foom: people don't buy the ansi standard, because what you get when you do so is a crappy scan in a pdf, or worse, a crappy printout of this crappy scanned pdf. 2015-07-16T20:00:24Z pjb: foom: if ANSI produced a nice ANSI CL Book well printed or e-edited, it probably would sell more of them. 2015-07-16T20:00:40Z brpocock: we had a copy at the office, but we lost the thing, and we didn't even know when it went missing, because it was useless. :-/ 2015-07-16T20:01:22Z Xach wants to make a nice printed book of dpans3 2015-07-16T20:01:30Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:02:07Z eudoxia: hm i just came up with something 2015-07-16T20:02:16Z eudoxia: is there a way to call tex like 'gcc -E' 2015-07-16T20:02:23Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:02:25Z eudoxia: as in just expand such and such macros but leave the text unchanged 2015-07-16T20:02:50Z pjb: aeth: there's provision for binary data in Rivest's SEXP proposal: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/sexp.html 2015-07-16T20:03:47Z aeth: pjb: yes I've read that and I don't think that's the way forward 2015-07-16T20:03:53Z aeth: pjb: It's designed for C, not for CL 2015-07-16T20:04:10Z aeth: pjb: my idea is more like JSON, a subset of CL itself 2015-07-16T20:04:12Z pjb: aeth: it's a protocol! 2015-07-16T20:04:43Z pjb: And it has the name "Rivest" attached to it. 2015-07-16T20:04:45Z aeth: right, but it's not worse-is-better trivial to implement under CL afaik 2015-07-16T20:05:08Z aeth: I want to design something that's as close to trivial as possible, that's the point of using s-expressions 2015-07-16T20:05:34Z jasom: aeth: There are a number of issues with using a subset of CL: inefficient representation of binary data, no hash tables, etc. 2015-07-16T20:06:09Z aeth: jasom: It would support plists and alists. I suspect that a database would be better than using hash tables for large amounts of data. 2015-07-16T20:06:19Z aeth: different problem 2015-07-16T20:06:25Z aeth: This would replace all the various text stuff around Unix 2015-07-16T20:06:34Z aeth: that is: configurations, logs, etc. 2015-07-16T20:07:38Z pjb: aeth: people don't wait for you. Xen configuration files are antively sexps. (Then they have a python layer that translates python configuration files to sexps…). 2015-07-16T20:07:41Z jasom: A problem with alists a plists is that they are hard to distinguish from lists 2015-07-16T20:08:03Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:08:21Z eudoxia: right 2015-07-16T20:08:32Z eudoxia: i would just have lists and a generic map thing 2015-07-16T20:08:32Z pjb: aeth: sbcl is popular, because it's a fork of cmucl whose purpose was to make it more easily bootstrappable and generally hackable. 2015-07-16T20:08:43Z brpocock: eudoxia: not afaik, but in a pinch, I imagine one could backtrack from the DVI with some degree of efficiency. 2015-07-16T20:08:52Z pjb: aeth: it's obvious, from the names: cmucl -> sbcl. 2015-07-16T20:08:53Z aeth: jasom: I was thinking about a way around this, and one way would be to give semantic information in the CAR of a list, with the first s-exp (generally the first non-commented line) saying exactly what it is 2015-07-16T20:09:01Z pjb: aeth: really. 2015-07-16T20:09:09Z eudoxia: brpocock: tried that, didn't work 2015-07-16T20:09:16Z jasom: aeth: another way would be to use vectors for your sequence type 2015-07-16T20:09:22Z eudoxia: its easier to parse the tex (still horrible though) 2015-07-16T20:09:47Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:09:51Z eudoxia: aeth: please for the love of god just have a map concept and give the CL parser the option to parse as plists, alists or hash tables 2015-07-16T20:10:02Z jasom: aeth: lastly you could require associative types to be plists and use #\{ as a reader macro to read them 2015-07-16T20:10:11Z eudoxia: nobody wants maps-as-(plist|alist) in their data exchange format 2015-07-16T20:10:15Z pjb: aeth: CM = Carnegie, Mellon SB = Steel, Bank 2015-07-16T20:11:30Z pjb: eudoxia: exchange formats go between non lisp systems too, therefore there is little point in having duplicate formats for maps (we don't care whether the end-points will use plist alist hashtables or something else). The format shall have a single syntax for maps! 2015-07-16T20:11:33Z aeth: jasom: yes, the only issue with using exclusively plists would be that I don't think Scheme has plists. But I guess at this point I've abandonned trying to write for more than one language, even more than one s-expression using language 2015-07-16T20:11:52Z eudoxia: pjb: yes, precisely 2015-07-16T20:13:32Z David36 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:13:56Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T20:14:12Z aeth: jasom: I think #\{ is probably the way to go, actually, you're right 2015-07-16T20:15:04Z jasom: It makes it not-a-subset of CL, but is trivial to implement still 2015-07-16T20:16:35Z David36 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T20:17:05Z bjorkintosh: subset of CL ... you mean, Lisp? 2015-07-16T20:17:21Z Bike: superset of a subset 2015-07-16T20:18:49Z aeth: well it's not a subset of emacs lisp or autolisp or scheme or clojure or arc or... 2015-07-16T20:19:07Z bjorkintosh: or ... lambda? 2015-07-16T20:19:16Z David36 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:20:16Z Bike: common lisp doesn't even have to have a λ character, therefore it's not a superset of church's calculus, QED 2015-07-16T20:20:27Z bjorkintosh: well done. 2015-07-16T20:20:49Z aeth: actually... 2015-07-16T20:21:04Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T20:21:31Z aeth: (defun λ () t) 2015-07-16T20:21:32Z brpocock: (defmacro λ ((&rest λlist) &body body) `(lambda ,λlist ,@body)) ; there, I fixed it. 2015-07-16T20:21:51Z aeth: oh wow 2015-07-16T20:21:52Z Bike: no, i mean common lisp implementations don't ahve to allow that character in text 2015-07-16T20:22:00Z aeth: well I tested it in sbcl and it works 2015-07-16T20:22:05Z Bike: why wouldn't it work 2015-07-16T20:22:15Z aeth: Bike: we need a new spec. don't change anything except require λ support 2015-07-16T20:22:15Z aeth: :-p 2015-07-16T20:22:41Z pjb: brpocock, aeth: it would be better with a reader macro, since that would allow (function (λ (x) x)) and #'(λ (x) x), because there are evil people around here. 2015-07-16T20:23:14Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:23:17Z pjb: (set-macro-character #\λ (lambda (s c) (declare (ignore s c)) 'cl:lambda) t) 2015-07-16T20:23:20Z aeth: well I'm evil because I didn't write a functional λ, I just wanted to see if it would be allowed at all 2015-07-16T20:24:01Z pjb: (funcall #'(λ (x) x) 2) --> 2 2015-07-16T20:24:17Z aeth: oh good 2015-07-16T20:24:38Z pjb: And also ((λ (x) x) 42) --> 42 2015-07-16T20:24:40Z brpocock: Unicode portability test, ƒ (defun 白皙孔雀保护者 () … ) 2015-07-16T20:24:45Z aeth: does that mean we can translate CL into other languages? e.g. coche instead of car 2015-07-16T20:24:51Z pjb: aeth: sure. 2015-07-16T20:25:02Z Bike: aeth: symbol names are just strings, so anything goes 2015-07-16T20:25:11Z Bike: of course they're not unicode-normalized, shit like that, probably 2015-07-16T20:25:19Z pjb: of course, (symbol-name 'coche) --> "CAR" might be unsettling. 2015-07-16T20:26:17Z ahungry: See my https://github.com/ahungry/glyphs (or available in quicklisp), I use λ and all those fun ones 2015-07-16T20:26:25Z brpocock: (:use :cl-español) would be way easier to implement than eg Lingua::Romana::Perligata was, you could just rebind the symbols into the package. 2015-07-16T20:26:47Z pjb: brpocock: doesn't work for NIL. 2015-07-16T20:26:48Z aeth: although I don't think car would *actually* translate to coche, that was a joke. CAR is an acronym iirc 2015-07-16T20:27:12Z pjb: brpocock: (if 'nulo 'verdad 'falso) --> verdad ; oops 2015-07-16T20:27:33Z williamyao: Is there a technical reason to prefer uninterned symbols for DEFPACKAGE instead of keywords? 2015-07-16T20:27:38Z pjb: that's why you need reader macros there. 2015-07-16T20:27:54Z pjb: williamyao: that's for people who believe the case of symbol names could change. 2015-07-16T20:27:58Z pjb: williamyao: I use strings. 2015-07-16T20:28:27Z pjb: williamyao: using keywords fills the KEYWORD package with all the symbols names ever exported (at compilation time). 2015-07-16T20:28:43Z brpocock: I think preserving (nil t c[ad]*r ) and a few other non-words would be fair. Likewise n- (nconc, nreverse) and -f (incf, setf) 2015-07-16T20:28:44Z pjb: So it may be a problem if you have long REPL sessions where you compile a lot of things. 2015-07-16T20:28:57Z williamyao: pjb: Okay, thanks. 2015-07-16T20:29:07Z aeth: it would be interesting setting up a CL translation project just because it's possible and easy 2015-07-16T20:30:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T20:30:17Z brpocock: but then it'd be just as super popular as cl21 for most of the same reasons. (Probably a zh or jp version could have an audience, though) 2015-07-16T20:30:17Z pjb: aeth: people spent a lot of time on the sources of clisp to translate the German comments. How happy will you be when you'll want to use (and maintain) a CL library written in Finish-CL? 2015-07-16T20:31:13Z pjb: Of course, there'd be an easy trick; just READ the source. 2015-07-16T20:31:16Z aeth: I'll write my code in Latin :-p 2015-07-16T20:31:34Z trqqd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T20:31:49Z pjb: But the main problem is the mismatch in symbol-name. 2015-07-16T20:32:13Z aeth: Ego in lingua latina loquor. :-p 2015-07-16T20:32:40Z aeth: yeah that would be a problem 2015-07-16T20:32:51Z David36 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-16T20:33:20Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:33:31Z pjb: But you could make a standard of a programming language using latin keywords and promoting a latin grammar like perligata. Notice that perligata is rather antithetic to lisp principles. 2015-07-16T20:33:43Z pjb: sexp is a data structure language. 2015-07-16T20:33:51Z rpg_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T20:34:00Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:34:02Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:35:28Z David36 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:37:32Z brpocock left #lisp 2015-07-16T20:39:59Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:41:56Z PuercoPop: pjb: *verdadero 2015-07-16T20:42:04Z David36 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-16T20:42:17Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T20:42:47Z David36 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:43:11Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:43:42Z pjb: thanks. 2015-07-16T20:44:18Z Ettore1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:45:00Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-16T20:45:11Z David36 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-16T20:45:34Z Ettore quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T20:45:34Z palter quit 2015-07-16T20:46:20Z jasom: pjb: are you the one who made a representation for lisp source code? 2015-07-16T20:46:37Z Xach: pjb: should i grab a tag from git? 2015-07-16T20:50:14Z pjb: Xach: nothing changed for now. I think I'll rather use development branches. But I have to set it up. 2015-07-16T20:50:50Z pjb: jasom: I don't think so. What are you refering to? 2015-07-16T20:51:26Z paddymahoney quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T20:51:43Z pjb: Xach: that would be a moving tag, like "quicklisp", that would be updated right? 2015-07-16T20:51:51Z jasom: someone had a way of representing lisp source code as lisp data-structures 2015-07-16T20:52:03Z jasom: could handle things that READ couldn't like #+foo 2015-07-16T20:52:08Z pjb: jasom: '(defun f (x) (* x x)) --> (defun f (x) (* x x)) 2015-07-16T20:52:51Z pjb: jasom: I implemented a lisp reader, but to "meta"-read #+foo, you need to redefine those reader macros which you can do with the normal reader. 2015-07-16T20:53:12Z jasom: pjb: so it wasn't you then. *someone* in here did it; I'll grep my logs 2015-07-16T20:53:27Z Xach: pjb: yes 2015-07-16T20:53:50Z pjb: Xach: I think I'll do that then, it's simple enough. Let me add this tag… 2015-07-16T20:53:56Z Xach: pjb: ok 2015-07-16T20:54:07Z vhost- is now known as sick2 2015-07-16T20:55:51Z brpocock: jasom: I'd be very interested to see that, particularly if it understood comments also. 2015-07-16T20:55:55Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T20:55:59Z jasom: brpocock: I think it did 2015-07-16T20:57:06Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-16T20:58:20Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:01:57Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:02:04Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:03:41Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-16T21:04:07Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T21:04:28Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:07:25Z ehu1 is now known as ehu 2015-07-16T21:07:30Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:08:15Z lotekkk joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:09:08Z jasom: how does one convert a foreign byte array to a lisp vector using cffi? 2015-07-16T21:09:27Z jasom: Anything better than making a vector and doign a loop with mem-aref? 2015-07-16T21:09:42Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:10:09Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T21:10:22Z edgar-rft: Hmmm... it would be interesting to know what "contents of address register" (CAR) and "contents of decrement register" (CDR) would be named in Latin, since such things didn't exist at that time, but I know that people exist who still speak Latin as a hobby. For example Google translator refuses to translate "address register" to Latin. 2015-07-16T21:12:00Z brpocock: locī gerulus ? (That which contains a place?) 2015-07-16T21:12:02Z dlowe: edgar-rft: you could use "first word bucket" and "second word bucket" maybe. 2015-07-16T21:13:07Z brpocock: jasom: you want (vector (unsigned-byte 8)) ? 2015-07-16T21:13:12Z Octophore joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:13:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:14:09Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-16T21:14:30Z Octophore2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-16T21:15:04Z jasom: brpocock: yeah 2015-07-16T21:15:16Z edgar-rft imagines a megaprocessor built from buckets instead of transistors <http://www.megaprocessor.com/> 2015-07-16T21:15:49Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:17:11Z Bike: that's moniac. good stuff, too 2015-07-16T21:17:15Z brpocock: jasom: something like #'cffi:convert-from-foreign maybe? I thought I had code that did that, but I can't seem to lay grep on it. 2015-07-16T21:17:34Z |3b|: you pretty much need the loop 2015-07-16T21:18:09Z |3b|: if you can provide the foreign array, you might be able to use something that is both a foreign array and a lisp array (see static-vectors for example) 2015-07-16T21:18:46Z |3b|: or there might be implementation specific tricks to write the loop more efficiently (something like a memcpy that writes to the memory of a lisp array for example) 2015-07-16T21:20:24Z |3b|: cffi:translate-from-foreign / cffi:expand-from-foreign and similar might let you hide the loop 2015-07-16T21:20:28Z jasom: |3b|: I can't, I need to copy out of a buffer that's goign away 2015-07-16T21:24:49Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:25:01Z cheryllium: could anyone please explain what this error means: "nil can't be destructured against the lambda list" 2015-07-16T21:25:10Z cheryllium: or what is likely to cause it? 2015-07-16T21:25:53Z Dasyatid1: cheryllium: Against _what_ lambda list? It sounds like missing arguments. 2015-07-16T21:26:24Z undoall joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:26:25Z cheryllium: thank you 2015-07-16T21:27:38Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T21:27:42Z Dasyatid1: … you're welcome? Did that actually help? 2015-07-16T21:28:12Z cheryllium: you said it was probably missing arguments, right? 2015-07-16T21:28:43Z williamyao: cheryllium: Sounds like you're accidentally passing NIL to a DESTRUCTURING-BIND. 2015-07-16T21:28:56Z Dasyatid1: It's one possible cause, but the message sounds incomplete. Against _which_ lambda list, and in what context? 2015-07-16T21:28:58Z cheryllium: What is a destructuring-bind? 2015-07-16T21:29:05Z Bike: clhs destructuring-bind 2015-07-16T21:29:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 2015-07-16T21:29:09Z Bike: a macro 2015-07-16T21:29:27Z williamyao: If you don't know what it is, that's probably not what's causing it. 2015-07-16T21:29:55Z cheryllium: I am using the function read-from-string, could that cause the error? 2015-07-16T21:30:11Z cheryllium: Sorry I have to be so vague... it is for my work. I appreciate the help 2015-07-16T21:30:20Z Bike: read-from-string could cause any error at all, really 2015-07-16T21:30:46Z cheryllium: ok let me ask.. if I create the string with prin1-to-string, then I should be able to read it back with read-from-string, right? 2015-07-16T21:30:51Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:30:53Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T21:31:13Z Bike: basically what it's saying is that you have an argument list (lambda list) that's being applied to something it can't fit, as if you did (print) 2015-07-16T21:31:15Z sick2 is now known as vhost- 2015-07-16T21:31:15Z Dasyatid1: If you wrote it out with *print-readably* bound to t, then mostly yes. 2015-07-16T21:33:37Z hegel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T21:34:06Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T21:34:19Z Dasyatid1: Or use keyword args to write-to-string, e.g., (write-to-string OBJ :readably t). 2015-07-16T21:35:01Z Dasyatid1: If you don't have anything enforcing print-readably then you don't necessarily get roundtrip. Or if you have some sort of customized printer that doesn't respect it properly or is malfunctioning, of course. 2015-07-16T21:35:14Z pjb: edgar-rft: latin is NOT a dead language. 2015-07-16T21:35:44Z Bike: still spoken by a worldwide community of underground monasteries 2015-07-16T21:35:46Z cheryllium: Thanks, I'll try using write-to-string, see if that changes the error.. 2015-07-16T21:36:08Z pjb: edgar-rft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MONIAC_Computer 2015-07-16T21:37:50Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-16T21:39:45Z pjb: edgar-rft: several hydrolic and pneumatic computers have been built. even in lego: https://www.flickr.com/photos/osr/10965620794 Even nowadays, there are research projects in pneumatic-microchip development. I can't google it now, but there was this little chip where the flow was switched from left to right or back using a third flow, without any moving piece, at a micro-scale. 2015-07-16T21:40:17Z pjb: Bike: and on the Internet in .va and public radio stations emiting from various countries including Finland. 2015-07-16T21:40:42Z Bike: do people actually use latin for daily business in the vatican? i've seen that ATM, i guess 2015-07-16T21:40:53Z hegel joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:41:21Z pjb: When a Chinese bishop meets a Finish bishop, I bet they speak in Latin. 2015-07-16T21:42:15Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T21:42:28Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T21:43:12Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-07-16T21:43:51Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T21:44:07Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:44:24Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:45:22Z newcup: pjb: off-topic pedantry... you're missing one "n" from Finnish. But no worries, lisp in summer projects also lists contestants being from "Findland" 2015-07-16T21:46:53Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-07-16T21:47:21Z scymtym: Bike: the SBCL reader can perform unicode normalization nowadays. see SB-EXT:READTABLE-NORMALIZATION. 2015-07-16T21:47:27Z salsa joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:47:30Z Bike: oh, that's cool. 2015-07-16T21:48:19Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:48:38Z pjb: newcup: sorry. I'll remember. 2015-07-16T21:50:54Z dmh joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:51:58Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-16T21:52:23Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-16T21:52:37Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T21:52:39Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T21:52:41Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:59:18Z Octophore2 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:59:50Z ziocroc2 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T21:59:58Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-16T22:00:41Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T22:00:49Z Guest83330 quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-07-16T22:01:14Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:02:43Z dmh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T22:02:54Z Octophore quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-16T22:03:05Z dmh joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:03:05Z cluck: pjb: yup, i mixed up the gnus 2015-07-16T22:06:29Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T22:07:32Z newcup: pjb: no problem :) (btw, Esperanto seems to be catching on in the church world; sadly, I can't find any reference to what the Pope thinks of lisp) 2015-07-16T22:08:18Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:13:43Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-16T22:14:21Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:16:13Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T22:18:57Z DeadTrickster quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T22:19:10Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:20:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T22:22:00Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T22:28:57Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:30:05Z salsa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T22:31:17Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:32:25Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:34:00Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-16T22:35:07Z Dasyatid1 left #lisp 2015-07-16T22:36:34Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:37:39Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T22:43:15Z theverbg joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:43:53Z dmh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T22:45:27Z alladia quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T22:53:13Z alladia joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:53:27Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:58:22Z dmh joined #lisp 2015-07-16T22:59:36Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-16T22:59:51Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:01:20Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:02:06Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:03:08Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:03:58Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:06:06Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T23:06:44Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-16T23:07:08Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:08:36Z copec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T23:11:30Z Cthulhux quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T23:11:30Z minion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T23:11:34Z Cthulhux` joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:12:16Z minion joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:12:35Z streptotrichosis quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:12:54Z PuercoPop: jasom: I think you were looking for hu.dwim.walker 2015-07-16T23:13:45Z copec joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:14:40Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-16T23:17:52Z streptotrichosis joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:18:55Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-16T23:20:10Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:20:59Z taij33n- joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:21:22Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:21:53Z taij33n quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:21:53Z jsnell quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:21:53Z jsnell joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:22:07Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:22:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:22:46Z abbe joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:27:08Z chu_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:27:47Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:30:39Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:30:56Z brpocock quit (Quit: brpocock) 2015-07-16T23:31:12Z pjb: in system cl-walker. 2015-07-16T23:31:38Z pjb: No, it's system hu.dwim.walker. 2015-07-16T23:32:22Z yasha_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:32:31Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:32:46Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-16T23:33:12Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:35:41Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-16T23:35:47Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-16T23:40:02Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:52:30Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-16T23:53:55Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-16T23:56:33Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-16T23:59:14Z jasom: PuercoPop: thanks! 2015-07-17T00:01:06Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T00:02:31Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-07-17T00:02:56Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T00:04:48Z lotekkk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T00:06:22Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-17T00:07:30Z ziocroc2 quit (Quit: ziocroc2) 2015-07-17T00:10:23Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-17T00:11:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T00:14:50Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T00:16:29Z aeth: Interesting, I found a way to get sbcl stuck in an infinite loop until the heap exhausts. (format nil "~{ ~}" "") 2015-07-17T00:17:58Z aeth: On clisp, that will be an error, and e.g. (format nil "~{ ~}" nil) will end. That will end in e.g. sbcl too, though. 2015-07-17T00:19:38Z aeth: ecl infinite loops until "storage exhausted" for (format nil "~{ ~}" "") too, so this seems to be an evil malformed format string 2015-07-17T00:20:52Z aeth: It seems to be the combination of the space in "~{ ~}" and the non-list element (obviously {} expects a list) 2015-07-17T00:27:27Z Ettore1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-17T00:28:44Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-17T00:29:41Z Bike: i'm surprised sbcl doesn't complain 2015-07-17T00:29:54Z aeth: sbcl complains for ~{~} but not ~{ ~} 2015-07-17T00:30:17Z Bike: it complains about something else with ~{~}, the argument doesn't matter 2015-07-17T00:30:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-17T00:30:33Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T00:30:55Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T00:31:09Z aeth: well I think it should complain for "~{ ~}" if there's nothing in there, because e.g. (format nil "~{ ~}" (list 1 2 3)) still fails 2015-07-17T00:31:25Z Bike: probably, but i meant just a type error. 2015-07-17T00:31:37Z aeth: if you must know how I found this it's because I put A instead of ~A in some test format string :-p 2015-07-17T00:34:19Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-17T00:36:23Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-17T00:42:38Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-17T00:42:42Z pjb: The thing is that ~{~} can eat a variable number of elements from the list! (format nil "~{~@[~A ~A~]-~}" '(1 2 nil 3 4 nil)) --> "1 2--3 4--" 2015-07-17T00:43:12Z pjb: Notice how when it finds nil, it only eats nil, but when it finds 1 or 3, it eats two. 2015-07-17T00:43:28Z pjb: This is why (format nil "~{ ~}" non-empty-list) is bound to fail. 2015-07-17T00:43:50Z pjb: (format nil "~{anything here~}" '()) --> "" 2015-07-17T00:45:45Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-17T00:46:41Z pjb: To have it process the ~{body~} at least once, you need ~:} and at least once you need ~1{ (format nil "~1{anything here~:}" '()) --> "anything here" 2015-07-17T00:46:44Z pjb: (format nil "~2{x~:}" '(1 2 3 4)) --> "xx" 2015-07-17T00:50:14Z kristof is now known as redcoat 2015-07-17T00:52:58Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T00:53:23Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-17T00:53:48Z mc40 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T00:57:14Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-17T00:58:38Z badkins quit 2015-07-17T01:02:41Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T01:03:38Z jlarocco quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-17T01:03:56Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:08:12Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T01:08:33Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:09:40Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:21:30Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:25:47Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:26:23Z edgar-rft: pjb: Hydraulic and pneumatic is technology from yesterday. Modern people use gingerbread computers <http://www.strangebusiness.com/content/item/107897.html> 2015-07-17T01:28:57Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-17T01:34:06Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-17T01:35:21Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:35:35Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T01:35:37Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:36:17Z lotekkk joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:38:52Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T01:39:22Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T01:40:13Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T01:40:38Z pjb: edgar-rft: well, I talked about new development in "micro" pneumatic chips. 2015-07-17T01:40:44Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:41:08Z pjb: Those computers are useful in some industrial context (and possibly in security contexts too), where interferences or tempest attack are a problem. 2015-07-17T01:42:01Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T01:44:58Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:45:18Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-17T01:49:08Z pjb: edgar-rft: check http://microfluidique.insa-toulouse.fr/Publications/Khelfaoui%2520et%2520al.,%25202009.pdf 2015-07-17T01:51:21Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:52:29Z edgar-rft: pjb: or this one? <https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17730-new-microprocessor-runs-on-thin-air/> 2015-07-17T01:52:39Z edgar-rft: (will check the PDF now...) 2015-07-17T01:53:57Z pjb: Yes, this article. 2015-07-17T01:54:59Z pjb: I guess, one could still get some info eg. in the IR band, about the working of such a processor, but that seems harder than with electronic processors, for cryptosecurity. 2015-07-17T01:55:38Z pjb: Oops: "It’s even possible to watch the pneumatic components in action, because the valve membranes reflect light strongly whenever they are forced downwards." 2015-07-17T01:56:17Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-17T01:57:05Z quazimod1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T01:57:06Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T02:00:11Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-17T02:00:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-17T02:01:05Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2015-07-17T02:01:10Z Zhivago quit (Changing host) 2015-07-17T02:01:10Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2015-07-17T02:04:30Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-17T02:08:57Z MasterPiece quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-17T02:12:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T02:12:47Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T02:13:56Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-17T02:15:57Z dmh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T02:18:36Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-17T02:19:44Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T02:22:50Z edgar-rft: pjb: I can see a usage in controling machines producing heavy electric or magnetical fileds, like high frequency power transmitters, nuclear spin tomography, magnetic resonance imaging, etc., where shielding the control electronics from the high-power fields is a real problem. 2015-07-17T02:23:00Z edgar-rft: Of course the data processing still must be done by a high-speed CPU but e.g. for motor control a hydraulic or pneumatic CPU would be fast enough. Long-term reliability of these things is of course another topic that probably still must be explored. As far as I have understood these are still laboratory prototypes. 2015-07-17T02:23:27Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T02:24:47Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-17T02:30:31Z pjb: Well, fast is relative. We're in the kHz range here. 2015-07-17T02:31:18Z edgar-rft: my first computer had 200 kHz = 0.2 MHz and it was fast enough... 2015-07-17T02:32:00Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-17T02:33:26Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-17T02:34:04Z edgar-rft: Also these are still prototypes. If I compare the speed of my computers I see 1980 = 200 kHz and 2015 = 2 GHz. 2015-07-17T02:35:33Z edgar-rft: Of course I know that air = sound speed and electricity = light speed but I think these toy machines still can be made faster. 2015-07-17T02:36:47Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T02:36:58Z redcoat: You were, of cousre, being metaphorical when you said electricity = light speed, right? 2015-07-17T02:37:21Z edgar-rft: No, electrons travel at light speed. 2015-07-17T02:37:28Z Zhivago: Nonsense. 2015-07-17T02:37:28Z Bike: electrons don't 2015-07-17T02:37:31Z redcoat: Well, that is not true :( 2015-07-17T02:37:34Z Bike: electric fields expand pretty fast tho 2015-07-17T02:37:37Z mfranzwa quit (Quit: mfranzwa) 2015-07-17T02:37:37Z Zhivago: Some electrons travel faster than light. 2015-07-17T02:37:49Z redcoat: Zhivago: Now that's nonsense. 2015-07-17T02:37:53Z Zhivago: And give off a pretty blue glow when doing so. 2015-07-17T02:38:07Z Zhivago: Look up Cherenkov Radiation. 2015-07-17T02:38:22Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-17T02:38:43Z redcoat: That is not the speed of light in a vacuum :P 2015-07-17T02:39:01Z Zhivago: How fortunate that no-one specified that ... 2015-07-17T02:39:48Z Bike: i think you'll find that if you account for bose-einstein condensates, _i_ am the most right, 2015-07-17T02:42:58Z jlongster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T02:44:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T02:51:55Z edgar-rft: Okay, just a little physics-reading later: Electrons travel much slower than light speed, and electrical waves would require a medium with unlimited bandwith to travel with light speed. 2015-07-17T02:52:02Z edgar-rft: What I originally wanted to say is that the speed of electrical waves is approx. one million times faster than the speed of air waves what means that an air-based CPU will always be one million times slower than an electrical CPU. 2015-07-17T02:52:10Z edgar-rft: Can we agree on that? 2015-07-17T02:53:02Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-07-17T02:53:24Z Bike: i don't know how much clock speeds are limited by propagation speed, honestly. 2015-07-17T02:54:44Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-17T02:56:20Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-17T02:56:52Z pocket quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T02:57:49Z edgar-rft: Crystal clock speed is mostly limited by the impedance of the PCB traces. Maximum possible clock speed of CPUs is most often limited by the chip temperature. 2015-07-17T02:58:02Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:00:10Z tmtwd_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:00:57Z edgar-rft: Both usually force the CPU to work much slower than theoretically possible. 2015-07-17T03:03:53Z theos: is someone making a timemachine? 2015-07-17T03:04:28Z tmtwd_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-17T03:05:01Z edgar-rft: theos: <http://sploid.gizmodo.com/meet-the-men-who-are-seriously-building-time-machines-1573256433> 2015-07-17T03:07:10Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:07:47Z mfranzwa quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-17T03:11:30Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:13:31Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T03:15:03Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:19:46Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-17T03:23:22Z pjb: in wires, with DC current, electrons travel at about 1 m/s. 2015-07-17T03:23:31Z pjb: They keep bumping into atoms… 2015-07-17T03:24:00Z pjb: with AC current, it's the same, but since they change direction 100 times a second, they don't move at all on averate. 2015-07-17T03:24:15Z nyef: Okay, that answers my first follow-up question. 2015-07-17T03:24:26Z nyef: ... And plausibly my second. 2015-07-17T03:24:36Z redcoat: But what about your third? 2015-07-17T03:25:16Z redcoat: While we're on the topic of electricity, I have to say that watt hours are the most poorly named unit of measurement ever conceived. 2015-07-17T03:25:16Z edgar-rft: pjb: yes, I confused the speed of electrons with the propagation speed of electric waves. 2015-07-17T03:25:23Z pjb: It's the wave of electric field that travels at light speed. 2015-07-17T03:25:24Z pjb: Yes. 2015-07-17T03:25:28Z nyef: I think my third might have had to do with reflected-wave signaling, but I'm possibly too tired to understand the answer. 2015-07-17T03:25:48Z pjb: light is just a pair of coupled electric field and magnetic field. 2015-07-17T03:25:51Z Bike: telegrapher's equations... my bane. 2015-07-17T03:25:57Z edgar-rft: redcoat: I think "Angstrom per week" is even worse 2015-07-17T03:26:00Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:26:20Z redcoat: edgar-rft: At least that is comprehensible 2015-07-17T03:26:22Z Bike: well watt hours are silly because it's just a rescaling of joules. 2015-07-17T03:26:30Z redcoat: it's worse than that 2015-07-17T03:26:39Z nyef: Favorite speed measurement: 1.79 x 10^12 furlongs per fortnight. 2015-07-17T03:26:45Z pjb: New Horizon is travelling at 1.87488e+23 angstrom/week. 2015-07-17T03:26:53Z Bike: then, of course, you get kilowatt-hours per year and such. 2015-07-17T03:26:56Z nyef: And it's even relevant to this conversation. (-: 2015-07-17T03:27:02Z redcoat: rather than seeming like a simple quantity, you have a rate multiplied by a time elapsed, which is inherently more complicated than just expressing the resultant quantity directly 2015-07-17T03:27:34Z lotekkk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-17T03:28:07Z redcoat: Bike: NO, there can't be anyone who does that!! 2015-07-17T03:28:23Z pjb: Go to the gas station, and ask for ten joules. 2015-07-17T03:28:32Z theos: looks like #lisp turned into #physics today :P i dont mind 2015-07-17T03:28:44Z redcoat: pjb: They will think I said jewels and press the button under the counter 2015-07-17T03:28:47Z nyef: theos: At least it's not #gun-control-debates again. 2015-07-17T03:28:51Z yaewa joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:29:02Z theos: nyef ya it could have been worse 2015-07-17T03:29:08Z pjb: theos: hard core lispers are in Mary Chung's :-) 2015-07-17T03:29:25Z nyef: pjb: We all left about two hours ago. 2015-07-17T03:29:51Z pjb: Ok. Good digestion then! 2015-07-17T03:29:54Z Bike: http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97&t=3 thank the united states government 2015-07-17T03:30:03Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T03:31:55Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-17T03:32:51Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:33:13Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T03:34:06Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-17T03:37:30Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-17T03:39:01Z chu_ is now known as chu 2015-07-17T03:42:17Z dmh joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:43:07Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-17T03:46:54Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-17T03:48:03Z gendl___ quit (Quit: gendl___) 2015-07-17T03:52:22Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:53:54Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:54:02Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-17T03:54:38Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-17T03:55:49Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-17T03:56:37Z theos: oi beach 2015-07-17T04:02:13Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-17T04:02:38Z beach: I tried to compile Clasp yesterday, but it failed with the following message: error while loading shared libraries: libgmpxx.so.4: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 2015-07-17T04:03:25Z beach: I managed to build it in the past, so I don't know why it would fail this time. 2015-07-17T04:06:16Z nyef: I've got no idea. I've only compiled Clasp the once, and that on OSX. 2015-07-17T04:06:47Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-17T04:11:35Z beach: Hmm, that file is in the externals-clasp directory, and I verified 3 times that I put the correct directory in the config file. 2015-07-17T04:11:56Z nyef: Which branches are you on for externals-clasp and clasp? 2015-07-17T04:12:11Z beach: The ones I was told: preview and newbuild respectively. 2015-07-17T04:12:21Z nyef: That should be right. Hrm. 2015-07-17T04:12:41Z beach: Oh well. Not that important. 2015-07-17T04:12:48Z beach: I'll check with drmeister at some point. 2015-07-17T04:13:19Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-17T04:17:03Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T04:24:41Z drmeister: Hello 2015-07-17T04:24:46Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T04:24:59Z beach: Hello drmeister. 2015-07-17T04:25:48Z nyef: Right, I need to crash now. 2015-07-17T04:25:50Z nyef: G'night all. 2015-07-17T04:26:02Z beach: 'night nyef. 2015-07-17T04:26:05Z drmeister: beach: It's a moving target but the "newbuild" branch of clasp and the "preview" branch of externals-clasp is probably best 2015-07-17T04:26:07Z drmeister: good night nyef 2015-07-17T04:26:17Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-17T04:26:28Z beach: drmeister: Yes, that's what I was told and that's what I did. 2015-07-17T04:26:55Z drmeister: And you ran into a problem with libgmpxx.so.4? 2015-07-17T04:27:14Z beach: Yes, despite the fact that it is in the externals-clasp directory. 2015-07-17T04:27:51Z drmeister: Hmm. 2015-07-17T04:28:24Z drmeister: Do you have time to do some debugging or do it some other time? 2015-07-17T04:28:41Z drmeister: debugging of the clasp build system 2015-07-17T04:28:41Z beach: I have time. It is more a question of whether you do. 2015-07-17T04:28:55Z beach: I don't know much about build systems. 2015-07-17T04:29:01Z beach: But I am willing to help. 2015-07-17T04:29:21Z drmeister: I'm trying to think of how we would diagnose what's wrong. 2015-07-17T04:29:24Z drmeister: I know, hang on. 2015-07-17T04:29:43Z beach: This is not high priority for me, so if you have better things to do, we can do it some other time. 2015-07-17T04:30:12Z drmeister: Well let's put five minutes into it and if we can't solve it we can try some other time. 2015-07-17T04:30:23Z beach: OK, that sounds good. 2015-07-17T04:30:24Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-17T04:30:33Z drmeister: Or rather, I'm interested in putting five minutes into it but I don't want to annoy you. 2015-07-17T04:30:53Z drmeister: Let me just check where that library ends up on my linux system 2015-07-17T04:31:48Z beach: Here, it is in externals-clasp/gmp-6.0.0/.libs/libgmpxx.so.4 2015-07-17T04:32:45Z drmeister: Where clasp looks for it is in externals-clasp/build/common/lib/libgmpxx.so.4 2015-07-17T04:33:06Z beach: OK, I'll check that one. Hold on... 2015-07-17T04:33:09Z drmeister: It moves it into the externals-clasp/build to simplify things. "simplify" 2015-07-17T04:33:23Z s00pcan quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-17T04:33:33Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-17T04:34:51Z beach: It exists there as a symbolic link and the target of the link also exists. 2015-07-17T04:35:00Z Niac quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T04:35:33Z beach: It happens when it tries to start clasp_boehm_o: clasp/build/clasp/bin/clasp_boehm_o -f bclasp -I -f ecl-min -l "buildClaspMinBoot.lsp" 2015-07-17T04:36:10Z rtoym joined #lisp 2015-07-17T04:37:15Z drmeister: Ok - so externals-clasp does not appear to be the problem. 2015-07-17T04:37:57Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T04:38:01Z drmeister: beach: in the top level clasp directory can you do this: make devshell 2015-07-17T04:38:36Z drmeister: Then: clasp_boehm_o -I -n 2015-07-17T04:38:37Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-17T04:38:48Z drmeister: That will start clasp in a minimal REPL 2015-07-17T04:38:50Z beach: Hold on... 2015-07-17T04:39:00Z drmeister: I expect it to fail with the same message. 2015-07-17T04:39:11Z beach: The make devshell gives the path to the externals-clasp/build directory 2015-07-17T04:39:38Z beach: It does fail with the same message. 2015-07-17T04:39:49Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-17T04:40:18Z drmeister: Do you use "strace"? 2015-07-17T04:40:30Z drmeister: It's been a while since I used it - hang on - checking options 2015-07-17T04:40:55Z drmeister: Yeah: strace clasp_boehm_o -I -n 2015-07-17T04:40:56Z beach: I have used strace in the past. 2015-07-17T04:41:13Z smith joined #lisp 2015-07-17T04:41:24Z drmeister: Then paste the output of that command. 2015-07-17T04:41:51Z drmeister: Then we can stop for now and I'll think about what's going on and compare it to my linux system. 2015-07-17T04:42:25Z beach: It tries to open the lib file in the standard directories but not in the one where it is located. 2015-07-17T04:44:36Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-17T04:45:33Z smith quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-17T04:45:51Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-17T04:47:32Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T04:53:06Z drmeister: I'll take a look at what it's supposed to do on my linux system and get back to you. 2015-07-17T04:53:16Z drmeister: Hopefully it has strace - it's an old Redhat system 2015-07-17T04:54:58Z beach: Do you need the full output? 2015-07-17T04:55:10Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-17T04:55:28Z beach: http://metamodular.com/clasp-out.text 2015-07-17T04:55:47Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-17T04:59:05Z beach: I have never thought about how hard it could be to come up with a fail-safe build system. I guess it must be very hard. 2015-07-17T04:59:29Z lotekkk joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:01:48Z yaewa quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-07-17T05:02:06Z moei joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:04:17Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:05:54Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:08:28Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:08:38Z dubkoidragon joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:10:04Z lotekkk quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-17T05:11:33Z ltekkk joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:12:42Z ltekkk quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-17T05:13:12Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T05:13:18Z lotekkk joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:13:23Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-17T05:17:58Z drmeister: Thanks. Sorry - I'm keep getting distracted here. 2015-07-17T05:18:01Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T05:18:13Z beach: Not a problem. 2015-07-17T05:18:22Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:18:53Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T05:19:24Z dmh- joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:20:30Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:20:36Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:20:46Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:21:14Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:21:58Z aap joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:22:20Z lacedaemon joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:22:22Z dmh quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:22:22Z K1rk_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:22:23Z ronh_d joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:22:32Z easye` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:22:32Z dmh- is now known as dmh 2015-07-17T05:22:36Z aeth: Does SLIME auto-log or do I have to C-x C-s it somewhere? 2015-07-17T05:23:00Z pozori joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:23:09Z cyraxjoe_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:23:12Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:23:24Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:23:25Z K1rk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:23:25Z ronh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:23:25Z danlentz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:23:25Z easye quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:23:25Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:23:26Z aap_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T05:23:26Z fe[nl]ix quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T05:23:26Z otjura quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:23:26Z nowhere_man quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T05:23:26Z cyraxjoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T05:23:26Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:23:37Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:24:08Z drdo joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:24:17Z beach: aeth: It seems to do it automatically. I don't know the frequency, but I know I never have to save anything manually. 2015-07-17T05:25:28Z aeth: beach: yeah I know it must because M-p remembers between sessions, but I can't seem to find it with locate. I tried a bunch of guesses to what the file could be called 2015-07-17T05:25:48Z aeth: and Google is being its usual level of helpful when it comes to Lisp (i.e. not helpful) 2015-07-17T05:26:45Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:28:04Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:30:47Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-17T05:31:48Z beach: aeth: ~/.slime-history.eld maybe? 2015-07-17T05:32:30Z dubkoidragon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:33:02Z aeth: oh that has to be it 2015-07-17T05:33:16Z warex quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-17T05:34:18Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:35:27Z beach: Time to get to work! 2015-07-17T05:35:29Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-17T05:35:53Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T05:37:32Z YamiGucci joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:38:18Z phax left #lisp 2015-07-17T05:38:19Z tmtwd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T05:38:31Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:38:55Z YamiGucci: How is Lisp as a first language in comparison to C, C++ or Java? 2015-07-17T05:39:19Z pjb: Great. 2015-07-17T05:39:38Z pjb: YamiGucci: check http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial 2015-07-17T05:39:45Z H4ns: YamiGucci: very good! 2015-07-17T05:39:49Z pjb: YamiGucci: and Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html 2015-07-17T05:40:50Z YamiGucci: I've been dabbling with those latter three languages and I feel like they're forcing me to understand low-level/mid-level stuff when I could be making cool things and improving my general algorithm skills 2015-07-17T05:40:53Z pjb: YamiGucci: for reasons: C deals with low level stuff that a newbie can avoid. C++ is really too complex, you have to define a sane subset you can use in a project before starting. Java (growing complex too), but foremost, a lot of boilerplate and useless syntax. 2015-07-17T05:41:18Z redcoat: YamiGucci: Very good 2015-07-17T05:41:30Z aeth: YamiGucci: what you really need is a REPL to play around with to learn things imo. 2015-07-17T05:41:34Z H4ns: YamiGucci: technical understanding is required for all programming at some point, but with lisp, you can start at a more abstract level. 2015-07-17T05:41:38Z pjb: YamiGucci: if your purpose is to put students in a straightjacket, then those languages can be good. But if you want to teach them programming notions, and have them write interesting programs, then use lisp. 2015-07-17T05:41:46Z aeth: Languages that don't use REPLs are frustratingly slow to learn how to code something with and idk how anyone can start with those languages 2015-07-17T05:42:06Z aeth: With Lisp you can just do (format t "Hello, world.") in the REPL, no need to compile anything. 2015-07-17T05:42:29Z redcoat: YamiGucci: Lisp is not only good as a first language, it's also good as a life-long language. 2015-07-17T05:43:11Z YamiGucci: I keep running into type errors among other mid-/low-level things in C and all of this complicated low-level stuff has resulted in me having only made a small little file IO program at best 2015-07-17T05:43:31Z H4ns: YamiGucci: i'd suggest that you try lisp to see whether it suits you better. 2015-07-17T05:43:38Z pjb: aeth: well, I have (add-hook 'c-mode-hook (lambda () (interactive) (local-set-key (kdb "C-c C-l") 'compile-and-run))) so, I can write C programs like Lisp programs, but indeed, there's no input in M-x compile. Perhaps I should use the shell instead. 2015-07-17T05:43:49Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:44:11Z redcoat: YamiGucci: You will need to learn how to get around types, sometime. No language will solve that for you. In C, you'll get a compile time error, but in Python or Lisp you'll probably run into a runtime error. 2015-07-17T05:44:18Z H4ns: YamiGucci: if you don't mind using a commercial lisp for learning, allegro cl and "basic lisp techniques" make for a good start 2015-07-17T05:44:20Z pjb: YamiGucci: types are important, even in languages like lisp that associate types to values, not to variables, and where there are no type declarations (or they are optional). 2015-07-17T05:44:42Z redcoat: In fact, programming is only about two things: defining data types, and performing operations on them. 2015-07-17T05:45:05Z H4ns: defining data types + operations -> ??? -> profit! 2015-07-17T05:45:08Z pjb: YamiGucci: but you cannot say that C/C++/Java are good language to learn typing either. int f(){char* a="hello"; return a+3;} is valid and only gives a warning (since it's not an error) on recent compilers. 2015-07-17T05:45:16Z redcoat: So if you never get your types straight, how will you ever know what operations you can perform on them? 2015-07-17T05:45:18Z yasha_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:45:29Z pjb: redcoat: exactly :-) 2015-07-17T05:45:44Z aeth: I'm writing something in SLIME right now. No file at all at the moment. It's fun. It started trivial and now it's around 22 lines. Maybe I'll get to the hundreds before I put it in a file. I don't think you can do that in C. 2015-07-17T05:45:55Z pjb: Oh you said "never". I thought you said "So if you get your types straight, how will you ever know what operations you can perform on them?" 2015-07-17T05:46:08Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:46:27Z pjb: YamiGucci: are you asking as teacher or as student? 2015-07-17T05:47:08Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:47:17Z redcoat: pjb: :( I'm not sure I follow the point you thought I was trying to make. 2015-07-17T05:47:25Z aeth: Someone should make a version of Lisp where types don't matter, so e.g. + will concatenate sequences. (+ 1 1) is 2 and (+ "foo" "bar") is "foobar" and (+ "foo" 1) is "foo1" and (+ "foo" (list 2 3)) is (list "foo" 2 3) etc. 2015-07-17T05:47:37Z YamiGucci: Like, I want to make something that will give me fulfillment but also want to learn about low-level stuff eventually; that's why I was wondering if Lisp would better prepare me for this difficult low-level stuff I'm *trying* to grasp in C/C++, as well as allow to me focus on what I believe really matters - algorithm design/problem solving skills 2015-07-17T05:47:41Z trqqd joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:47:45Z aeth: There will never be any errors in this language because it's not an error if it doesn't tell you it's an error. 2015-07-17T05:48:01Z redcoat: aeth: No, everything will be turned into a logic error. 2015-07-17T05:48:03Z lambda-smith: aeth: re:hacking in SLIME, yeah I know that feeels. SLIME is just a bliss to use 2015-07-17T05:48:23Z pjb: YamiGucci: as a teacher, lisp would also have the advantage that it allows you to add interesting things in the environment for students (cf. the work of Harold Weitz for example). 2015-07-17T05:48:48Z lambda-smith: pjb: Scheme is also a good candidate 2015-07-17T05:48:56Z pjb: YamiGucci: the thing is that low level stuff is not different than high level stuff, but involves only more complications, little technical details and requires more knowledge. For newbies, it's not a good starting point. 2015-07-17T05:49:23Z pjb: YamiGucci: unless of course, you make them write a program directly on a microprocessor, like eg. on 6502, in hexadecimal. 2015-07-17T05:49:53Z aeth: lambda-smith: The only problem with going between Scheme and Common Lisp is that it does take some practice to learn the differences. Funcall, nil as false, flet, etc. Lots of places where they're not similar at all. 2015-07-17T05:50:31Z aeth: I'm not sure if there's a giant list of differences out there on the Internet. There should be if there isn't. 2015-07-17T05:50:38Z pjb: YamiGucci: but this would be only for the learning experience, and to make them understand why some practices are established in software engineering and high level programming. Again, in terms of pedagogical order, this can come way after the initiation with Lisp. 2015-07-17T05:51:49Z pjb: YamiGucci: being a lisp programmer, you can approach low level programming in a better position than C programmers, because you're used to building abstractions and to write clear and modular programs (since it's easy to do in lisp, not so easy in C, at least not without a lot more discipline). 2015-07-17T05:51:59Z aeth: pjb: Anyone forced to write directly on a microprocessor should probably try to make a Lisp so that they won't have to write directly anymore. 2015-07-17T05:52:08Z Zhivago: Having + overloaded for concatenation is a really stupid idea. 2015-07-17T05:52:20Z Zhivago: But having a generic concatenation operator is a reasonable one. 2015-07-17T05:52:38Z pjb: foremost in lisp, where it comes in prefix! (+ "abc" "def") has no point. 2015-07-17T05:52:56Z aeth: Zhivago: Yes, that's the point. It's not a good idea. 2015-07-17T05:52:56Z lambda-smith: aeth: Yeah, I know what you are talking about. the Rosetta Code website is a good place to look up Common Lisp vs. Scheme differences 2015-07-17T05:53:10Z aeth: pjb: well I guess the point is to keep the symbols to a minimum 2015-07-17T05:54:15Z Zhivago: These days, I'd probably start with Racket rather than Scheme. 2015-07-17T05:54:20Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-17T05:54:40Z lotekkk quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:55:50Z redcoat: Zhivago: Having a monoid or group constraint is a good idea. Bounded polymorphism is a good idea. 2015-07-17T05:56:48Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T05:57:09Z yasha_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:57:22Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-17T05:59:31Z lotekkk joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:00:05Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:00:08Z YamiGucci: So, if I learn Lisp first, will learning a mid-level/low-level language like C, C++ and Java be easier? 2015-07-17T06:01:44Z redcoat: Yes. 2015-07-17T06:02:16Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:02:18Z redcoat: But don't just give it up after a while. Try to program regularly and do things. Read books. Share code. Read blog posts. Learn new styles of programming. 2015-07-17T06:03:11Z lotekkk quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-17T06:04:08Z pjb: YamiGucci: that said, check http://paste.lisp.org/display/149906 and the java link. Printed, the java sources would be about 23 pages. 2015-07-17T06:05:35Z dubkoidragon joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:06:18Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-17T06:07:04Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T06:07:36Z YamiGucci: This book seems to have the most five star ratings on Amazon and it says it teaches Lisp/LISP. Is it overrated or is it a good start to learn Electrical Engineering and Computer Science like it says in the title? 2015-07-17T06:07:45Z YamiGucci: Here's the link to the Amazon book: 2015-07-17T06:07:47Z YamiGucci: http://www.amazon.com/Structure-Interpretation-Computer-Programs-Engineering/dp/0262510871/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1437029135&sr=1-1&keywords=sicp 2015-07-17T06:08:02Z pjb: It is very good. 2015-07-17T06:08:16Z pjb: But it uses scheme for its examples, not Common Lisp. 2015-07-17T06:08:22Z pjb: That doesn't prevent you to learn Common Lisp and use it to do the exercises in sicp. 2015-07-17T06:08:28Z pjb: Several people have done htat. 2015-07-17T06:08:31Z pjb: that 2015-07-17T06:08:48Z pjb: Some even have done the exercises in C++! (But not the last chapter). 2015-07-17T06:09:07Z aeth: What's the best way to do #'foo regularly, where regularly is seconds or less? At first I thought to just use #'sleep but then I realized that if the action takes unexpectedly long, #'sleep won't be good enough, so now I make a new thread after sleeping. 2015-07-17T06:09:24Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T06:09:38Z pjb: You need to check the time. 2015-07-17T06:09:40Z aeth: But this isn't particularly elegant, so I'm guessing I'm doing something wrong, sort of like how you can technically REPL in (loop (print (eval (read)))) but you don't 2015-07-17T06:10:23Z YamiGucci: So the book lies about teaching you Lisp in the description? 2015-07-17T06:12:08Z pjb: YamiGucci: scheme is a kind of lisp. But it's not Common Lisp. This channel is about Common Lisp. ##lisp is about lisps in general. #scheme is about scheme. 2015-07-17T06:12:11Z aeth: YamiGucci: No, it's just really old, before it was really clear about the Lisp/Scheme distinction. Lisp and Scheme are closely related. 2015-07-17T06:13:13Z aeth: Scheme is a dog, Common Lisp is a wolf of today, and Lisp is the wolf they both came from. 2015-07-17T06:13:53Z pjb: aeth: just keep a variable with the next time, and when you need to schedule the task, compute the difference between the current time and the next time. If it's negative, then you skip a call (increment the next time with the period). If it's positive then sleep that time. 2015-07-17T06:14:30Z aeth: pjb: I'd keep track of time if it were, say, minutes. I'm not sure if it's a good idea if it's e.g. seconds or less than seconds 2015-07-17T06:14:45Z redcoat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T06:15:01Z aeth: here's the SICP videos, btw. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE18841CABEA24090 2015-07-17T06:15:06Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:15:22Z pjb: aeth: also, I don't know about cl:sleep, but unix sleep is approximative. You could call sleep(2); and when you awake, less or more (sometimes much more) time may have elapsed. (eg. if a signal occurs, then sleep exits early. If the computer hibernates, then much more time elapses. If the computer is busy, then sleep may exit late. 2015-07-17T06:16:13Z pjb: aeth: it works the same whatever the scale. The only difference is that you need to keep track of time more or less precisely. Also in CL, you have get-internal-run-time and get-internal-real-time, so you get to choose which one you want. 2015-07-17T06:17:01Z aeth: pjb: I don't *need* exact for this, what I'm doing is making a thread that runs in the background. It's basically just playing with threads. 2015-07-17T06:17:08Z pjb: If you want more precision than 1 second, have a look at https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/activity.lisp#L315 2015-07-17T06:17:19Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:17:55Z pjb: Otherwise get-universal-time should be good. But "No implementation is required to have a way to verify that the time returned is correct.". 2015-07-17T06:19:21Z aeth: pjb: this is what I have been playing around with to try to learn bordeaux-threads. http://paste.lisp.org/display/151769 2015-07-17T06:19:26Z aeth: I might as well just paste it in like that 2015-07-17T06:20:02Z aeth: It's rough, and the indentation is kind of off there, because I have been using SLIME. Just assume a CL-USER> in front and the indentation works 2015-07-17T06:20:21Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-17T06:21:10Z copycat quit (Quit: copycat) 2015-07-17T06:21:28Z armour joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:21:28Z gendl__ quit (Quit: gendl__) 2015-07-17T06:23:41Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:24:49Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:25:26Z redcoat joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:25:51Z YamiGucci quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-17T06:29:27Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:29:34Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T06:33:24Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-17T06:38:48Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T06:41:56Z loke joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:43:23Z dwightd_eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T06:50:22Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:02:41Z theverbg quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-17T07:03:16Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:16:18Z armour quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T07:17:07Z pozori quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T07:17:50Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-17T07:18:38Z Firedancer joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:22:17Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:22:31Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T07:25:01Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:27:37Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:28:43Z keen__________23 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:29:40Z keen__________22 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T07:30:16Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:31:39Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T07:32:08Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:33:01Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:33:17Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:44:14Z armour joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:44:36Z armour quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T07:54:14Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-17T07:54:20Z kami: Good morning. 2015-07-17T07:58:10Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-17T07:58:15Z redcoat quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T07:58:28Z Firedancer: Morning 2015-07-17T07:59:08Z Firedancer: Pretty quiet channel for it's user size 2015-07-17T08:00:16Z pjb: San-Francisco (USA): 01:00:00 PDT Fri Jul 17 2015 2015-07-17T08:00:16Z pjb: New-York (USA): 04:00:00 EDT Fri Jul 17 2015 2015-07-17T08:00:20Z pjb: Paris (France): 10:00:00 CEST Fri Jul 17 2015 2015-07-17T08:00:20Z pjb: Tokyo (Japon): 17:00:00 JST Fri Jul 17 2015 2015-07-17T08:00:23Z pjb: 2015-07-17T08:00:26Z pjb: 2015-07-17T08:00:48Z pjb: In Europe, people are gone to work. In the USA, to bed, and in Japan, coming home. 2015-07-17T08:02:23Z Firedancer: I am at work.... 2015-07-17T08:02:23Z pjb: Which is not to say that if you had asked a question, somebody wouldn't have answered, but since not, I'll go. 2015-07-17T08:03:02Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T08:03:47Z Firedancer: Well I did want to ask what it good math library for lisp? I would try some simpla FEM calculations so I don't need anything super fancy 2015-07-17T08:03:57Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-07-17T08:04:01Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-17T08:04:56Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-17T08:06:10Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T08:06:26Z pjb: femlisp 2015-07-17T08:09:18Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-17T08:09:25Z Firedancer: okay, I was looking that, but I wasn't sure if it was the best option. 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I am way too anti-social for anything like that so I think it is honorable that you are interested in that kind of stuff 2015-07-17T12:52:51Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-17T12:53:21Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-17T12:53:38Z jackdaniel: hm, I think you have very narrow definition of word social in mind - irc is social for instance ;) it's technological competition with founding and workshops, therefore legit leverage for developing own ideas 2015-07-17T12:54:37Z JuanDaugherty: yeah but if most of ur social is in irc ... . 2015-07-17T12:54:51Z chelseaclinton quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T12:54:55Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-17T12:55:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T12:56:22Z JuanDaugherty: (means you've flattened social down to txt, which is minimally social) 2015-07-17T12:56:44Z jackdaniel: that's what I meant by mentioning narrow definition of "social" - many people do valuabe things for society having poor social skills 2015-07-17T12:57:01Z JuanDaugherty: ah 2015-07-17T12:57:21Z jackdaniel: therefore you don't have to be "social" to be "social" ^_^ 2015-07-17T12:57:43Z JuanDaugherty: you could have a rich social life online and none in meatspace and then yeah you'd still be pretty social 2015-07-17T12:58:07Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-17T12:58:14Z jackdaniel: you can have no social contacts at all, but invent cure for cancer - damn, that's social innovation 2015-07-17T12:58:39Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-17T12:59:28Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T12:59:33Z core1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T13:00:00Z JuanDaugherty: i wonder if I will have to do a special build of sbcl to have complete control of threading and making sure it has the right relation to a kernel built for preemption 2015-07-17T13:00:15Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T13:00:22Z JuanDaugherty: well no I disagree 2015-07-17T13:00:54Z JuanDaugherty: humanitarian purpose doesn't satisfy the sense of social that was current 2015-07-17T13:01:19Z JuanDaugherty: until we extend to social works, which yeah was the equivocation 2015-07-17T13:01:40Z jackdaniel: hm, my understanding of "social doing" is more "doing for benefit of society" then "doing with other people" 2015-07-17T13:01:58Z JuanDaugherty: there is more than one valid sense 2015-07-17T13:02:28Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:02:30Z jackdaniel: I agree, yet I'm convinced that sense presented by me is more valid for abovementioned competition 2015-07-17T13:02:47Z JuanDaugherty: the one the competition refers to and the one Firedancer referred to 2015-07-17T13:03:42Z jackdaniel: social-1 and social-2, last thing we have to examine is which has only one namespace ;-) 2015-07-17T13:04:21Z JuanDaugherty: so I want to build a vehicle tied to the kernel for controlling a wide variety of apps, anything runnable and in lisp 2015-07-17T13:05:32Z JuanDaugherty: which one was like to have in some sense? seems more like 2 2015-07-17T13:05:41Z JuanDaugherty: *more likely to 2015-07-17T13:05:57Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-17T13:06:10Z JuanDaugherty: subject though i guess 2015-07-17T13:06:15Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-17T13:06:18Z sebbee joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:07:23Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:07:28Z JuanDaugherty: so I assume will just be an examined matching of what's going on in bordeaux or whovever and what I've built the kernel for 2015-07-17T13:07:37Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:07:47Z JuanDaugherty: *subjective 2015-07-17T13:09:11Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:09:12Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:09:20Z smull quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-17T13:10:00Z lala quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T13:12:34Z core1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:13:15Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. the vehicle would be mostly/centrally cl, the apps would just be arbitrary runnable binaries 2015-07-17T13:14:05Z JuanDaugherty: oh yeah gc, so in fact I guess you do have to special build to get the desired 2015-07-17T13:14:07Z lala joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:15:44Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:15:55Z Jirachier quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-17T13:16:23Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:16:41Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T13:18:59Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:23:30Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:23:57Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:24:10Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T13:24:42Z wemeetagain quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-17T13:28:26Z sebbee left #lisp 2015-07-17T13:28:36Z sebbee joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:28:38Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:29:14Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T13:30:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:30:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-17T13:30:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:30:22Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:30:37Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-17T13:32:28Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 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2015-07-17T16:04:00Z cluck quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-17T16:06:08Z noob-lisper joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:06:47Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T16:06:48Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-17T16:08:52Z mfranzwa quit (Quit: mfranzwa) 2015-07-17T16:11:44Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:13:21Z chelseaclinton joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:14:17Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:14:37Z chelseaclinton: hello lispers 2015-07-17T16:15:02Z chelseaclinton: I really enjoy the gentle introduction to common lisp... but ive did the error and peeked into practical lisp. and now I am so confused 2015-07-17T16:16:21Z dafunktion quit 2015-07-17T16:16:29Z antoszka: chelseaclinton: What's the confusion? 2015-07-17T16:17:00Z chelseaclinton: i am working on the database example 2015-07-17T16:17:10Z chelseaclinton: and the way write output file is introduced seems a bit rushed 2015-07-17T16:17:46Z core1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T16:17:48Z streptotrichosis quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-17T16:18:00Z antoszka: AFAIR PCL uses WITH-OPEN-FILE and just printing the (printable) datastructure to it. 2015-07-17T16:18:07Z antoszka: So that's pretty lightweight :) 2015-07-17T16:18:25Z antoszka: I think you can safely do both in parallel. 2015-07-17T16:18:50Z noob-lisper quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-17T16:19:52Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:22:49Z chelseaclinton: can I? i dont want to mess up my lisp understanding 2015-07-17T16:23:03Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T16:24:00Z jackdaniel: why not doing them one after another? 2015-07-17T16:24:27Z Bike: you can probably learn more than one thing at once... strange but true. 2015-07-17T16:24:30Z Bike: clhs with-open-file 2015-07-17T16:24:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 2015-07-17T16:24:46Z Bike: plus get some practice reading the spec. 2015-07-17T16:25:10Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:25:13Z chelseaclinton: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ pdf link is broken 2015-07-17T16:25:19Z chelseaclinton: nvm 2015-07-17T16:25:21Z chelseaclinton: disregard that 2015-07-17T16:27:37Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:29:41Z lisp-noob joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:31:40Z streptotrichosis joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:31:47Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-17T16:34:20Z core1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:34:34Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:35:24Z cyraxjoe_ is now known as cyraxjoe 2015-07-17T16:35:26Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-17T16:35:51Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T16:37:28Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:39:18Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:40:10Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T16:40:13Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:40:54Z mfranzwa quit (Quit: mfranzwa) 2015-07-17T16:43:07Z chelseaclinton: how do I remove items from a list, that are 5? 2015-07-17T16:43:18Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T16:43:33Z chelseaclinton: (remove-if #'equal (5) list) hitting a wall here 2015-07-17T16:43:35Z dlowe: (remove 5 list) 2015-07-17T16:44:00Z dlowe: (5) will not return a list, however. Try '(5) or (list 5) 2015-07-17T16:44:01Z chelseaclinton: thanks dude 2015-07-17T16:44:07Z chelseaclinton: i'm complicating stuff here 2015-07-17T16:44:44Z dlowe: That won't modify the list, btw. That just returns a new list with all the 5s removed 2015-07-17T16:45:31Z ggole: If you wanted to use remove-if, you would use a lambda: (lambda (x) (equal x 5)) 2015-07-17T16:47:02Z dlowe: You should probably use EQL or = to compare numbers rather than EQUAL 2015-07-17T16:47:46Z ggole: The behaviour is different (for =). 2015-07-17T16:48:47Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:48:56Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-17T16:50:13Z jlarocco quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-17T16:51:33Z chelseaclinton: struggling with lambda 2015-07-17T16:52:54Z chelseaclinton: if I #'lambda, how do I (x) and brace the whole expression 2015-07-17T16:53:06Z chelseaclinton: or can I just (lambda (x) (= x 5)) in there 2015-07-17T16:54:31Z antoszka: Think of lambda in the same way as you define functions. 2015-07-17T16:54:31Z dlowe: you need to think about what expressions return 2015-07-17T16:54:43Z antoszka: And the return value, as dlowe says. 2015-07-17T16:54:52Z dlowe: so (lambda (x) (= x 5)) returns a function that can be applied to one value 2015-07-17T16:55:12Z dlowe: and remove-if applies one value to every element of a list 2015-07-17T16:55:16Z antoszka: And returns true if that value is 5 2015-07-17T16:55:51Z dlowe: #'oddp returns a function that can also be applied to one value, so you could do (remove-if #'oddp list) and it will remove all the odd numbers 2015-07-17T16:56:35Z chelseaclinton: so just that I understand it right 2015-07-17T16:57:00Z chelseaclinton: #'oddp is just syntactic sugar for (remove-if (lambda (x) (oddp x))) 2015-07-17T16:57:06Z chelseaclinton: the lambda part 2015-07-17T16:57:09Z lala quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T16:57:24Z dlowe: it's syntactic sugar for (function oddp) 2015-07-17T16:57:51Z dlowe: which returns a function. A lambda expression also returns a function, but the function is unnamed 2015-07-17T16:57:51Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T16:58:30Z dlowe: but sure, if you can stick (lambda (x) (oddp x)) in there and it will work, just with an extra function call jammed in there 2015-07-17T16:58:32Z antoszka: If the function is unary (takes a single argument) you don't need to wrap it in a single-argument lambda that does nothing else but applies the argument to the function. 2015-07-17T16:58:54Z nyef: (lambda ...) as a form is syntactic sugar for (function (lambda ...)), where the LAMBDA in the FUNCTION form is a "lambda expression", not a form. 2015-07-17T16:58:55Z williamyao quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T16:58:59Z antoszka: It'll be, as dlowe says, just one more function call down. With a same result. 2015-07-17T16:59:02Z dlowe: nyef: ah, good point 2015-07-17T16:59:10Z chelseaclinton: you guys rock 2015-07-17T17:00:00Z nyef: You can also use a lambda expression in place of a function name at the start of a form, so ((lambda (x) (+ x 5)) 37) is a legal form. 2015-07-17T17:00:02Z antoszka: No, you rock wanting to learn lisp :) 2015-07-17T17:00:48Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:01:59Z lala joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:02:12Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T17:03:05Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:05:16Z mc40 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:05:45Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:06:25Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:06:43Z chelseaclinton: antoszka: i really want to but I don't know if lisp is what I'm looking for :/ 2015-07-17T17:06:46Z chelseaclinton: the droid im looking for 2015-07-17T17:07:42Z eazar_lions_ass joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:08:04Z dlowe: Maybe you're just looking for something new 2015-07-17T17:09:07Z chelseaclinton: I'm looking to write a DSL for a education site, with which courses can be created 2015-07-17T17:09:43Z antoszka: Lisp is certainly a good choice for (lisp-flavoured) DSLs. 2015-07-17T17:09:57Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:10:25Z jackdaniel: book "On lisp" presents implementation of prolog on top of common lisp 2015-07-17T17:10:27Z chelseaclinton: but I have yet to figure out the steps from my javascript application to lisp and back :D 2015-07-17T17:10:40Z chelseaclinton: on lisp is way too hard for me :( 2015-07-17T17:11:21Z jackdaniel: I mean, DSL doesn't have to be lisp-flavoured 2015-07-17T17:11:50Z lambda-smith: Hmmm... latest SLIME seems to broke ac-slime 2015-07-17T17:11:58Z lambda-smith: Anyone also experienced this? 2015-07-17T17:12:06Z dlowe: the steps are: install quicklisp, with quicklisp, install hunchentoot (web server) and cl-json, set up a handler to respond to your JS request. 2015-07-17T17:12:14Z dlowe: 3) profit! 2015-07-17T17:12:23Z jackdaniel: 4) celebrate! 2015-07-17T17:12:55Z antoszka: jackdaniel: well, a DSL doesn't have to be lisp-flavoured, but certainly more work's involved if it's not. And once you start writing lisp you want your DSLs to be Lisp-flavoured. Seems natural :) 2015-07-17T17:13:25Z jackdaniel: heh, unless your DSL targets something with semi-defined syntax (: 2015-07-17T17:13:27Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:13:29Z jackdaniel: but yes, true 2015-07-17T17:14:15Z Xach: I still really want to use the js library to make an extension language for non-lispers in a lisp application. 2015-07-17T17:14:57Z dlowe: Xach: that's a very intriguing idea. 2015-07-17T17:15:07Z dlowe: I'd think lua would be a better fit 2015-07-17T17:15:24Z core1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:15:40Z arunisaac joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:16:18Z chelseaclinton: to make a DSL which is not lisp flavoured, I would need a parser first 2015-07-17T17:16:18Z Xach: Did someone write a lua in Common Lisp? 2015-07-17T17:16:32Z Xach: I'm talking specifically about the javascript engine written completely in common lisp. 2015-07-17T17:16:42Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:16:54Z dlowe: Xach: ah, I didn't realize one already existed 2015-07-17T17:17:12Z lisp-noob quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-17T17:17:22Z Xach: http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/cl-javascript/ 2015-07-17T17:18:06Z lacedaemon: Xach: that's one project that might benefit from being under sharplispers 2015-07-17T17:18:17Z Xach: lacedaemon: why? 2015-07-17T17:18:18Z lacedaemon: I don't think Marijn is much interested in CL nowadays 2015-07-17T17:18:26Z lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 2015-07-17T17:18:34Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: his last update was 3 weeks ago on github 2015-07-17T17:18:44Z Xach: that is far more maintained than a lot of other projects 2015-07-17T17:19:07Z Xach: I think it is safe for now 2015-07-17T17:19:08Z fe[nl]ix: oops, I take back everything :) 2015-07-17T17:19:29Z Xach: the web page is pretty old, true 2015-07-17T17:20:41Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:22:00Z arunisaac quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:22:02Z dlowe: sharplispers? 2015-07-17T17:22:25Z jolgorio: Anyone read Norvig's Paradigms? 2015-07-17T17:22:31Z dmh: ya 2015-07-17T17:22:41Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:22:43Z dmh: good book, havent finished tho 2015-07-17T17:22:56Z daimrod quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:22:59Z jolgorio: it's big 2015-07-17T17:23:06Z jolgorio: I'm thinkjng of reading it 2015-07-17T17:23:31Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:23:34Z dmh: recommend it 2015-07-17T17:23:45Z jolgorio: Awright 2015-07-17T17:23:49Z dmh: even tho it's dated there is tons of fun stuff in it 2015-07-17T17:23:56Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-17T17:24:02Z jolgorio: but I'm a lisp newbie so 2015-07-17T17:24:08Z Xach: It is a very good book for learning Common Lisp. 2015-07-17T17:24:12Z williamyao: dmh: Waiting till I return to Uni to check it out from the library 2015-07-17T17:24:19Z Xach: It is not overly dated. 2015-07-17T17:24:19Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:24:39Z Xach: The tools it develops for discussing old AI problems are still useful. 2015-07-17T17:24:49Z jolgorio: well it's not like the standard has changed ever since... right? 2015-07-17T17:24:51Z Xach: And it covers practical common lisp better than many books. 2015-07-17T17:25:04Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:25:05Z jolgorio: better than pcl? :) 2015-07-17T17:25:22Z Xach: I think they are different styles, both very good 2015-07-17T17:25:44Z jolgorio: I'll give it a try 2015-07-17T17:25:46Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:25:46Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T17:26:18Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:26:29Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: github.com/sharplispers 2015-07-17T17:26:36Z dmh: different styles indeed 2015-07-17T17:26:44Z qubitnerd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T17:26:46Z Xach: Someone(tm) should write about sharplispers (again?) 2015-07-17T17:26:56Z dmh: i found PAIP coverage of more advanced stuff like decompiling interesting 2015-07-17T17:27:07Z dmh: er i mean disassembling 2015-07-17T17:27:12Z dmh: and debugging stuff and profiling 2015-07-17T17:27:19Z williamyao: You know, the Uni library has a copy of AMOP and online access to Land of Lisp too, which I found surprising. 2015-07-17T17:27:30Z Xach: libraries can be pretty great 2015-07-17T17:27:37Z dmh: what is AMOP? 2015-07-17T17:27:49Z williamyao: Art of the Metaobject Protocol 2015-07-17T17:27:52Z antoszka: Art of the Metaobject Protocol 2015-07-17T17:27:53Z dmh: ah 2015-07-17T17:27:55Z jackdaniel: Art of the Metaobject Protocol 2015-07-17T17:27:57Z jackdaniel: ugh 2015-07-17T17:27:58Z jackdaniel: :D 2015-07-17T17:27:59Z dmh: ah 2015-07-17T17:28:00Z dmh: :D 2015-07-17T17:28:01Z antoszka: lol 2015-07-17T17:28:07Z Oladon: dmh: It's Art of the Metaobject Protocol, in case you didn't know 2015-07-17T17:28:08Z jolgorio: lol 2015-07-17T17:28:12Z Oladon: ;) 2015-07-17T17:28:19Z dmh: I'm inclined to believe you 2015-07-17T17:28:35Z Oladon: I would never lie to you. 2015-07-17T17:28:38Z jolgorio: it's statistical knowledge 2015-07-17T17:28:42Z dmh: thx 2015-07-17T17:28:43Z jolgorio: You don't know for sure 2015-07-17T17:28:53Z core1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:29:11Z jackdaniel: wisdom of the crowd 2015-07-17T17:29:50Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: do you mind if I do that ? I'm looking for an excuse to blog again 2015-07-17T17:30:02Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: do it up! do you have any pictures from amsterdam to use? 2015-07-17T17:30:16Z Xach: I had one in mind 2015-07-17T17:31:25Z fe[nl]ix: what does Amsterdam have to do with sharplispers ? 2015-07-17T17:31:48Z Xach: That is where it was invented! 2015-07-17T17:31:55Z Xach: At a chip shop at 1:30am! 2015-07-17T17:32:34Z Xach: hmm, http://i.imgur.com/vVrbRYb.jpg is all i have. not as good as i remembered. 2015-07-17T17:32:51Z fe[nl]ix: oh, I didn't know that 2015-07-17T17:33:21Z Xach: nikodemus, me, and a few others went stumbling around after the reception and he brought up the idea and then he got it started on github shortly thereafter 2015-07-17T17:33:33Z jolgorio: 6 members? 2015-07-17T17:33:34Z Xach: this was ECLM 2010 2015-07-17T17:33:43Z jolgorio: there are more people here 2015-07-17T17:33:47Z Xach: or 2009? 2015-07-17T17:34:00Z Xach: oh, 2011. how time flies 2015-07-17T17:35:32Z jolgorio: How long have you been lisping Xach? 2015-07-17T17:35:35Z Xach: I wish I could remember who thought of the name sharplispers. It still makes me smile. 2015-07-17T17:35:39Z lancetw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:35:39Z d4gg4d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:35:45Z Xach: jolgorio: only since about 2000. 2015-07-17T17:35:57Z jolgorio: Nice 2015-07-17T17:36:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:36:11Z Xach had a nice dinner with eminent graybeards/grayhairs who have been hacking lisp since the 70s 2015-07-17T17:36:15Z lambda-smith just learn about SLIME's built-in fuzzy completion mode 2015-07-17T17:36:27Z lambda-smith: Well, I guess I could learn to live with ac-slime not working 2015-07-17T17:37:11Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:37:12Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:37:49Z jolgorio: is it true that elder lisp hackers float 3 inches above the ground? 2015-07-17T17:38:04Z antoszka: no, 5. 2015-07-17T17:38:45Z dlowe: They uniformly look smug. Seriously, they look like they've had a happy life and got one over on the establishment. 2015-07-17T17:38:48Z qubitner1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:39:26Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:40:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:40:38Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-17T17:40:45Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: having DARPA at their feet in their prime youth must have felt great 2015-07-17T17:42:41Z Xach: it was more like their necks on the chopping block with darpa holding an axe 2015-07-17T17:42:55Z Xach: "get it together or else!" 2015-07-17T17:43:27Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:43:39Z Xach: dlowe: btw, https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp is the talk i talked about yesterday 2015-07-17T17:43:50Z dlowe: Xach: ah, nice. Thanks for the link 2015-07-17T17:44:19Z Xach installs an ssd on the quicklisp build server 2015-07-17T17:45:37Z protist quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-17T17:45:38Z lambda-smith: Xach: man, I'd really love to have more podcast like that 2015-07-17T17:46:06Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-17T17:47:45Z Xach: lambda-smith: yeah, it was a bummer it didn't keep going 2015-07-17T17:48:33Z lambda-smith: Xarch: thank you for archiving that episode anyway, it's very informative. 2015-07-17T17:51:33Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:52:56Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:58:06Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-17T17:58:27Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-17T17:58:53Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:02:50Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-17T18:03:20Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:03:56Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:05:02Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:05:45Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:07:18Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:08:00Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:08:12Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:09:45Z jeremiahlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:10:56Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:11:06Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:11:43Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:12:25Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:12:35Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:13:06Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:13:06Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:14:28Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:15:57Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:15:57Z lambda-smith quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T18:16:10Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:17:19Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:17:34Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:17:49Z core1 left #lisp 2015-07-17T18:18:17Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:21:14Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:22:01Z schjetne: I wrote a README for JSON-MOP if anyone wants to give it a try. I still need to solve a few semantic issues, like null vs. NIL, but it's a start. 2015-07-17T18:22:05Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:22:09Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:22:18Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:22:19Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:23:38Z qubitner1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T18:24:02Z ggole quit 2015-07-17T18:25:08Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:26:00Z TOAA joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:26:17Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:26:34Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:26:45Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:27:14Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:27:53Z Akshay quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-17T18:29:21Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:31:24Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:31:33Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:31:59Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:32:03Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-17T18:33:20Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:35:51Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:36:13Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:36:23Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:37:33Z TOAA quit (Changing host) 2015-07-17T18:37:33Z TOAA joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:37:44Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-17T18:37:54Z gendl__ quit (Quit: gendl__) 2015-07-17T18:39:16Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:39:26Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:40:39Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:40:50Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:41:42Z dmh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-17T18:42:04Z dmitigr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:43:23Z undoall left #lisp 2015-07-17T18:44:30Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:45:04Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:45:33Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:45:44Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:49:09Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:49:12Z Cthulhux` quit (Changing host) 2015-07-17T18:49:12Z Cthulhux` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:50:04Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:50:14Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:51:55Z stev3n joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:52:29Z alaa joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:52:40Z alaa: Hi 2015-07-17T18:53:21Z alaa: is it possible to trace special operators? I'm trying in sbcl, but get back a warning about the not tracing 2015-07-17T18:54:03Z brpocock: um, not technically, although if it's in your own code there are some hacks… 2015-07-17T18:54:30Z alaa: my trial was for multiple-value-call 2015-07-17T18:54:43Z Bike: alaa: special operators probably aren't function calls at run time, so tracing might not make sense. 2015-07-17T18:54:46Z jeremiahlarocco_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:54:58Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:55:06Z brpocock: yeah, I doubt that is going to be traceable at all. It probably compiles to just some register-shuffling … 2015-07-17T18:55:08Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T18:55:20Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-17T18:57:31Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:59:48Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T18:59:57Z redcoat joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:00:00Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:00:24Z jolgorio quit (Quit: bye!) 2015-07-17T19:00:25Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:01:01Z jasom: alaa: you can trace the function that you are calling with m-v-c 2015-07-17T19:01:12Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:01:44Z jasom: schjetne: what's json-mop? 2015-07-17T19:03:11Z jasom: Xach, dlowe I'm working on a transcription of that talk; some non-native english speakers had trouble understanding it due to the audio quality 2015-07-17T19:04:10Z jeremiahlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:04:12Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:04:22Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:05:08Z dlowe: surprised soundcloud doesn't offer voice recognition 2015-07-17T19:06:03Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:06:10Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:06:17Z akkad: yt does. 2015-07-17T19:06:17Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T19:06:39Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T19:08:47Z dlowe: I guess you could try feeding it through your phone in a pinch 2015-07-17T19:09:01Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:09:11Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:09:14Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T19:10:44Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:11:08Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:13:05Z jlarocco2 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:13:45Z bertro joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:13:55Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:14:06Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:16:04Z eazar_lions_ass quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-17T19:17:09Z jeremiahlarocco_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-17T19:18:19Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:18:29Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:19:07Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T19:19:36Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:22:52Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:23:12Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:23:23Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:26:38Z schjetne: jasom: https://github.com/gschjetne/json-mop 2015-07-17T19:27:16Z schjetne: A way of turning CLOS objects into JSON and vice-versa 2015-07-17T19:27:44Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:27:54Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:29:54Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T19:32:06Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:32:39Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:32:49Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:36:11Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:37:29Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:37:39Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:40:06Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:41:53Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:42:04Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:42:34Z clop2: after listening to that lisp talk, it just started playing prank calls from (??)Xach to some credit card company?? 2015-07-17T19:44:48Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T19:46:36Z Shinmera: Soundcloud just plays the next thing from the profile 2015-07-17T19:46:43Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:46:52Z aeth: pjb: ok now I see what you mean about SLEEP not being anywhere near good enough. I guess I just didn't notice until I lowered the interval to less than one second 2015-07-17T19:46:53Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:46:57Z jlarocco2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T19:47:22Z PuercoPop quit (K-Lined) 2015-07-17T19:47:22Z wizzo quit (K-Lined) 2015-07-17T19:47:24Z Shinmera: clop2: That particular one is of some people trying to bait people into running malware on their computers by pretending to be customer support. Xach is just playing extra dumb for laughs. 2015-07-17T19:47:45Z clop2: it's oddly entertaining 2015-07-17T19:47:58Z eazar_lions_ass joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:48:03Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:48:10Z wizzo joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:50:04Z dafunktion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T19:51:37Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:51:48Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:52:58Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:55:59Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T19:56:10Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T19:59:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:00:53Z clique is now known as habanero 2015-07-17T20:00:54Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:01:09Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:01:23Z habanero is now known as Guest4539 2015-07-17T20:05:24Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:05:31Z dmitigr: guys, what book you recommend after ANSI CL, PCL and On Lisp? 2015-07-17T20:05:36Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:06:37Z Bike: probably just get coding at that point 2015-07-17T20:06:38Z jackdaniel: amop maybe 2015-07-17T20:06:41Z Bike: or earlier 2015-07-17T20:07:09Z dmitigr are choising - PAIP or AMOP :-) 2015-07-17T20:07:12Z jackdaniel: let over lambda 2015-07-17T20:07:19Z jackdaniel: might be profitable lecture 2015-07-17T20:07:26Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: ahh, true 2015-07-17T20:07:30Z jackdaniel: for prepared mind ^_^ 2015-07-17T20:08:07Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: indeed, must read. But want to dive into CLOS... 2015-07-17T20:08:24Z dlowe: dmitigr: The Keene CLOS book 2015-07-17T20:08:41Z dlowe: dmitigr: but you should also start just writing programs 2015-07-17T20:09:12Z Guest4539 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T20:09:26Z dmitigr: dlowe: umm, well, I'm tired to read a lot, so, it's time maybe :-) 2015-07-17T20:09:52Z jackdaniel: writing programs *and* reading books at the same time is perfect strategy 2015-07-17T20:10:19Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:10:30Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:10:47Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: my goal was "cache" a lot of info before I start. 2015-07-17T20:11:18Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-17T20:11:36Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-17T20:11:39Z jackdaniel: heh, I've started from tutorial on wikibooks ;p 2015-07-17T20:11:59Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: yes, it's the way also :) 2015-07-17T20:12:10Z dlowe: dmitigr: often you'll do well by contributing to an existing project first if you don't have a program you immediately want to write. 2015-07-17T20:12:14Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: just another strategy 2015-07-17T20:12:36Z jackdaniel: true 2015-07-17T20:12:37Z dmitigr: dlowe: I want to revise Hunchentoot 2015-07-17T20:12:58Z dlowe: dmitigr: That's not quite what I meant by "contributing" 2015-07-17T20:13:38Z jackdaniel: dmitigr: great opportunity to contribute to projects is to pick some cl implementation which needs love (for example ECL ;) and use it, and when you hit corner-case with lib, make a pull request with patch 2015-07-17T20:14:08Z jackdaniel: for implementaion or for lib, depends on reason why something doesn't work 2015-07-17T20:14:39Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: I've already fixed some bugs in Hunchentoot :-) 2015-07-17T20:15:09Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:15:10Z jackdaniel: that's great :) 2015-07-17T20:15:23Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:15:25Z dlowe: and submitted upstream? 2015-07-17T20:15:31Z dmitigr: dlowe: yes 2015-07-17T20:15:33Z dlowe: woo 2015-07-17T20:15:47Z jackdaniel: no, hunchentoot 2015-07-17T20:15:47Z jackdaniel: :D 2015-07-17T20:17:21Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: so, I want to revise it just to read the real code and improve it, because I tend to use it in production. 2015-07-17T20:18:23Z jackdaniel: as I already said, thats great ;) so if you fix bugs in libs, then you actually use language already 2015-07-17T20:18:45Z chelseaclinton: whats CLOS 2015-07-17T20:18:56Z dlowe: Common Lisp Object Syste 2015-07-17T20:18:57Z dlowe: m 2015-07-17T20:19:14Z chelseaclinton: can I use it without adding anyrhing 2015-07-17T20:19:18Z Bike: yes. 2015-07-17T20:19:26Z jackdaniel: its part of the standard 2015-07-17T20:19:32Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:19:42Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:19:47Z redcoat: Interesting nick. 2015-07-17T20:20:03Z Bike: everybody likes bikes, imo. 2015-07-17T20:20:14Z redcoat: I need to repair mine. 2015-07-17T20:20:27Z jackdaniel: I was wondering, whose nick that is :p who doesn't like jackdaniels? ;p 2015-07-17T20:21:35Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: well, I hope I'll write something useful for endusers in Lisp... thats a goal :) 2015-07-17T20:22:07Z Riastradh joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:22:08Z chelseaclinton: dmitigr: write something for me 2015-07-17T20:24:13Z Riastradh: SBCL wizards: Do you folks have a plan to migrate away from SourceForge? sbcl.org is currently down, and I would not be surprised if SourceForge were basically going down in flames now after they started injecting malware into project downloads. 2015-07-17T20:24:22Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:24:31Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:24:38Z jackdaniel: Riastradh: there is/was debate on #sbcl on that 2015-07-17T20:24:59Z dmitigr: chelseaclinton: what do you need? :) 2015-07-17T20:25:00Z jackdaniel: cl.net and github are both viable solutions 2015-07-17T20:25:09Z chelseaclinton: dmitigr: a dsl 2015-07-17T20:25:09Z Riastradh: (Same question for anyone else using SF.net, really -- SBCL is just a big project I know of that has relied on it.) 2015-07-17T20:25:47Z dmitigr: chelseaclinton: what dsl? 2015-07-17T20:25:55Z jackdaniel: is there a way to export mailing list archive from sf.net? 2015-07-17T20:26:08Z chelseaclinton: dmitigr: well im starting out with lisp and i just want to create a dsl for an education site 2015-07-17T20:26:15Z chelseaclinton: but i think ill just finish the books and implement it meself 2015-07-17T20:26:41Z dmitigr: chelseaclinton: I think it would be better :) 2015-07-17T20:26:47Z Riastradh: jackdaniel: No idea about archiving the mailing list. Just started thinking about this today when the site went into static mode. It occurred to me when the malware insertion was happening that if SF is going down Someone^TM should archive everything so we don't lose two decades of free software history. 2015-07-17T20:28:14Z foom: Most of the ml traffic is archived on other sites already, e.g. gmane.org 2015-07-17T20:28:14Z jackdaniel: ECL started migration a few months ago, but ML is very valuable resource 2015-07-17T20:28:15Z z0d: what's up with SF.net? malware? what happened? 2015-07-17T20:28:35Z dlowe: easier just to google it 2015-07-17T20:28:45Z trqqd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-17T20:28:48Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:28:56Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:29:08Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:29:53Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:30:09Z Riastradh: z0d: sf.net started fraudulently representing projects they deemed abandoned and injecting malware into project downloads. 2015-07-17T20:30:33Z chelseaclinton quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T20:30:40Z jackdaniel: malware is strong word - crapware like toolbars and ads I'd say 2015-07-17T20:30:42Z Bike: well, more to the point, they're down 2015-07-17T20:30:43Z Riastradh: First public notice of it happened a year or so ago, if I recall correctly, but then they did it to the GIMP about a month ago and people really started noticing. 2015-07-17T20:30:52Z Bike: http://sbcl.org/ behold 2015-07-17T20:31:19Z z0d: that is very sad 2015-07-17T20:31:39Z z0d: I've just read the story 2015-07-17T20:32:32Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-17T20:33:41Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:33:48Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:34:05Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:35:00Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-17T20:35:02Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:36:24Z gendl__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-17T20:36:58Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:38:41Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:38:44Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:38:54Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:40:05Z aeth: jackdaniel: idk, "crapware" is more like what they bundle with e.g. a new Windows computer. Something that's basically useless but bundled before you get the machine. 2015-07-17T20:40:22Z aeth: Imo it's malware to try to trick you to install unwanted software once the computer is running. 2015-07-17T20:40:41Z z0d: Java also does that (ask toolbar) 2015-07-17T20:41:12Z aeth: Well, Oracle is an evil company so I'm not surprised :-p 2015-07-17T20:41:19Z jackdaniel: aeth: according to dictionary you're wrong 2015-07-17T20:42:02Z aeth: jackdaniel: dictionaries aren't good for technical terms, especially because dictionaries reflect common usage, which may differ from technical usage or may be out of date. In this case, it's apparently out of date. If you go e.g. searching Google News, "malware" is what the newspapers are using. 2015-07-17T20:42:26Z aeth: So if you're going by defintions based on usage, people are using "malware" in this context. 2015-07-17T20:42:40Z jackdaniel: my representation of word "malware" is similar to that put in dictionary 2015-07-17T20:42:41Z aeth: If you're going on technical usage, Wikipedia might be more useful than a dictionary. Tbh, I'm not sure a dictionary has any use 2015-07-17T20:43:05Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:43:16Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:43:20Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:43:26Z aeth: jackdaniel: Right, which is probably what it used to be. These days, however, it seems like "malware" is being used more broadly, at least based on Google News. Perhaps that's because "crapware" contains a swear word, idk. 2015-07-17T20:43:30Z z0d: calling it malware (or something else) doesn't change the program which is installed for you via SF.net <-: 2015-07-17T20:43:53Z aeth: z0d: I think in this case, the malware is the installer, not the program. The installer does unwanted behavior. 2015-07-17T20:44:06Z aeth: If you install Java through e.g. a Linux repository, there's no malware. 2015-07-17T20:44:08Z jackdaniel: unwanted <> malicious 2015-07-17T20:44:27Z jackdaniel: and wikipedia also supports this understanding for a record 2015-07-17T20:45:01Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:45:01Z aeth: Bundling installers is actually similar to ransomware. There's a similar motivation, which is financial. 2015-07-17T20:45:14Z foom: Sourceforge really couldn't have chosen a better time to be down for a few days. 2015-07-17T20:45:17Z aeth: It just doesn't remove data, it just installs crap that makes your computer worse. 2015-07-17T20:45:41Z foom: Everyone was already getting grumpy at them for the gimp thing. 2015-07-17T20:46:05Z jackdaniel: installsinstalls/win 17 2015-07-17T20:46:10Z jackdaniel: derp 2015-07-17T20:46:39Z aeth: jackdaniel: I'm guessing that you're right in that "crapware" would be more accurate, but I'm guessing (as I said before) that the news media is probably self-censoring by choosing "malware" to avoid using the word "crap" 2015-07-17T20:47:38Z aeth: foom: I guess when companies collapse sometimes they really, really, really collapse 2015-07-17T20:47:43Z aeth: I wonder if Sourceforge will even be here in 5 years. 2015-07-17T20:48:00Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:48:10Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:48:13Z williamyao: aeth: jackdaniel: What does _any_ of this have to do with Lisp? 2015-07-17T20:48:29Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:48:40Z dlowe: sbcl leaving sourceforge 2015-07-17T20:48:45Z aeth: williamyao: Lisp projects tend to be older FOSS projects, so quite a few things are now inaccessible 2015-07-17T20:48:45Z jackdaniel: media call hackers people, who are vandals - it's definite proof that they are even less acurate then dictionaries ;) 2015-07-17T20:49:23Z jackdaniel: is there word in english "vandals" ? 2015-07-17T20:49:28Z aeth: I mean wow talk about old. Maxima's initial release is 1982 according to Wikipedia. 2015-07-17T20:50:05Z jackdaniel: yes there is :) /me checked 2015-07-17T20:50:13Z aeth: jackdaniel: In English, "vandalism" isn't serious afaik, more like graffiti or something. 2015-07-17T20:50:14Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:50:20Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:50:22Z aeth: So I think vandals would be more like e.g. DDOSers 2015-07-17T20:51:18Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:52:32Z aeth: I mean I *guess* a lot of "hackers" could be considered "vandals" based on Wiktionary... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vandal#Noun 2015-07-17T20:52:34Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T20:52:51Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:52:52Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T20:53:01Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:53:08Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T20:53:10Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-17T20:53:14Z jackdaniel: my point stands tough - media misuse words even more badly then me 2015-07-17T20:53:15Z SkNix quit (Quit: Saindo) 2015-07-17T20:53:18Z jackdaniel: what is an achievement ;) 2015-07-17T20:53:52Z aeth: Well, you can't misuse words, there is no English HyperSpec that must be followed. 2015-07-17T20:55:13Z redcoat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T20:55:27Z aeth: If enough people misuse a word that becomes the new definition. 2015-07-17T20:55:52Z jackdaniel: misusage might evolve to different word meaning by power of consensus, yet if "A" means "some description" and if someone uses it in context of "some other description", then it's misusage 2015-07-17T20:56:07Z dlowe: I postulate that a word is misused if it spawns a long offtopic discussion about it on IRC 2015-07-17T20:56:19Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-17T20:56:33Z aeth: No need for consensus. People in Spain didn't hold yearly meetings to change Latin into Spanish. 2015-07-17T20:56:38Z nidhogg joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:56:50Z aeth: dlowe: well it is kind of on topic because if you have an accurate model of language you can do cool AI stuff 2015-07-17T20:57:15Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T20:57:25Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T20:57:25Z jackdaniel: consensus doesn't have to be "decided", it is just common knowledge which might change with time 2015-07-17T20:57:39Z jackdaniel: anyways, g2g :D good night o/ 2015-07-17T20:57:44Z dlowe: aeth: I remain unconvinced with your semantic evasion 2015-07-17T20:58:01Z aeth: Yes, but there doesn't have to be one "consensus". There's no Latin anymore because people in different parts of the former Roman Empire that spoke Latin went different ways. 2015-07-17T20:59:15Z aeth: The scary thing will be when there are more AIs than humans using language, and humans lose control of language. :-p 2015-07-17T20:59:23Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T21:02:05Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T21:02:17Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T21:03:07Z MasterPiece quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-17T21:03:57Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-17T21:04:10Z aeth: dlowe: ok fine it was off-topic. 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2015-07-17T21:58:45Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T21:58:57Z Bike: cl 2015-07-17T21:59:17Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T21:59:29Z jasom: thanks 2015-07-17T21:59:31Z Bike: or at least cl exports it, i guess an implementation could have it elsewhere 2015-07-17T22:01:20Z jasom: That helped me not at all.. why would with-profiling say "The value NIL is not of type sb-sprof::samples" 2015-07-17T22:03:00Z jasom: (sb-sprof:with-profiling (:loop t :max-samples 100000 :report :graph) (+ 1 2)) 2015-07-17T22:03:25Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T22:03:34Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:03:35Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:06:06Z Bike: yes, that's strange 2015-07-17T22:06:29Z Bike: found it. looks like a typo. 2015-07-17T22:06:49Z Shinmera: a separate start-profiling and end-profiling still worked the last time I tried it. 2015-07-17T22:06:51Z Bike: evaluates sb-sprof:*samples* in the macroexpander which is obviously wrong 2015-07-17T22:07:12Z Bike: because there's a (let ((,last-index, (samples-index *samples*))) 2015-07-17T22:07:14Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-17T22:07:49Z Bike: just delete that comma and it works. 2015-07-17T22:08:09Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T22:08:21Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:08:34Z Bike: or at least expands properly, i haven't used sprof enough to know if it's correct output 2015-07-17T22:09:07Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:11:46Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:11:55Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:12:51Z ghard``` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T22:14:43Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:15:37Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-07-17T22:15:44Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:16:04Z eazar_lions_ass quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-17T22:20:30Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T22:23:17Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T22:23:34Z sheilong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T22:28:10Z bertro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T22:29:58Z alaa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-17T22:35:02Z stev3n quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-17T22:35:45Z Petit_Dejeuenr joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:36:18Z dmitigr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-17T22:36:51Z Petit_Dejeuenr is now known as Petit_Dejeuner 2015-07-17T22:37:34Z DrWat: why lisp? 2015-07-17T22:38:38Z Bike: i am under an ancient geas mandating its use. 2015-07-17T22:39:45Z DrWat: ho ancient? 2015-07-17T22:39:48Z DrWat: *how 2015-07-17T22:40:01Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:40:04Z brpocock: I lack sufficient will-power to determine the binding-orders of operators in the m-expression languages, so I figured if I'm gonna nest parens 16 levels deep anyways, I may as well have a good excuse. 2015-07-17T22:40:25Z Bike: i forget. i count not the passing of the days 2015-07-17T22:40:55Z DrWat: Bike i've heard ancienter. 2015-07-17T22:41:23Z DrWat: what are m-expression languages? 2015-07-17T22:43:38Z pjb: aeth: you have to choose your dictionary wisely: http://www.catb.org/jargon/ 2015-07-17T22:43:59Z brpocock: Like C, Perl. 2015-07-17T22:44:08Z pjb: aeth: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/M/malware.html 2015-07-17T22:44:14Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-17T22:44:24Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-17T22:46:16Z pjb: DrWat: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/index.html 2015-07-17T22:48:05Z DrWat: can we just pretend for a second i'm retarded and i know nothing about computers? 2015-07-17T22:48:06Z DrWat: well 2015-07-17T22:48:12Z pjb: M-expression is meta-expression; S-expression is symbolic-expression. Symbolic expressions are used to represent data. Meta expressions were planed to be used to represent code. Unfortunately, before McCarthy could finalize his M-expressions for LISP, Russel had implement an EVAL function that obviously took S-expression data, and interpreted it, so making possible to execute lisp programs, as long as they were represented as lisp 2015-07-17T22:48:13Z DrWat: it's not really necessary to pretend 2015-07-17T22:48:15Z pjb: data. 2015-07-17T22:49:13Z pjb: So, by extension, the expression "m-expression languages" would designate all the programming languages that are represented by a representation that is different from their representation for data. 2015-07-17T22:49:22Z DrWat: that's interesting. 2015-07-17T22:49:25Z pjb: Ie. All the programming languages, but lisp and scheme. 2015-07-17T22:50:29Z DrWat: why does lisp have a cult following? 2015-07-17T22:50:38Z pjb: DrWat: in C, you can represent data with brackets: int a[]={1,2,3,4}; char* b={"char","*","b","=","data",";"}; 2015-07-17T22:50:47Z pjb: But you cannot do anything with b. 2015-07-17T22:50:56Z DrWat: what do you mean 2015-07-17T22:51:27Z pjb: In lisp, you represent data with parentheses: (setf a (1 2 3 4)) (setf b '(setf b data)) 2015-07-17T22:51:56Z pjb: and since it's the same representation for code, we use (quote x) or 'x to indicate in the data interpreted as code, that some data should be left as data. 2015-07-17T22:52:22Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-17T22:52:25Z pjb: Sorry, (setf a (1 2 3 4)) is wrong as code, it should be: (setf a '(1 2 3 4)). 2015-07-17T22:52:27Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-17T22:53:08Z pjb: DrWat: with lisp, we can take data such as '(setf a '(1 2 3 4)) and evaluate it: (eval '(setf a '(1 2 3 4))) 2015-07-17T22:53:27Z pjb: C doesn't provide an intrinsic way to evaluate char* b={"char","*","b","=","data",";"}; 2015-07-17T22:53:28Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T22:54:01Z pjb: You would have to save the data to a file, to call a C compiler, to produce a shared library, to dynamically link this shared library and to call the function defined in it. 2015-07-17T22:54:04Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:54:15Z pjb: Or you would have to write your own interpreter. 2015-07-17T22:54:58Z pjb: But since the language is already a processor, (whether it interprets the code or compiles the code), it'd be ridiculous to have to write it again. Let's just call EVAL. 2015-07-17T22:55:19Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-17T22:55:24Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:55:27Z pjb: Now, since we use data to represent code, we can write easily functions to produce code, or to transform code: they are mere lisp processing functions. 2015-07-17T22:56:11Z pjb: And then, we can hook those functions into the compiler, by way of "macros", so the compiler call your functions producing code automatically. 2015-07-17T22:56:19Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-17T22:56:20Z DrWat: data to represent code.... i don't follow 2015-07-17T22:56:35Z patata joined #lisp 2015-07-17T22:56:36Z DrWat: but btw i appreciate your thoughtful response 2015-07-17T22:56:38Z pjb: (1 2 3) is a list of 3 numbers. 2015-07-17T22:56:44Z pjb: (a b c) is a list of 3 symbols. 2015-07-17T22:56:51Z DrWat: yes 2015-07-17T22:56:55Z pjb: (setq x a) is a list of 3 symbols. 2015-07-17T22:57:08Z pjb: (eval '(setq x a)) is a list of two elements. 2015-07-17T22:57:27Z pjb: When we evaluate the list (setq x a), we obtain the processing of assigning the value of the variable a to the variable x. 2015-07-17T22:57:44Z pjb: (setq x a) is a data list, but it's also a code form that can be evaluated. 2015-07-17T23:00:04Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:00:08Z DrWat: i don't think i understand nearly as much of the basics of comp sci to make good sense of your answer 2015-07-17T23:00:12Z DrWat: i appreciate it though 2015-07-17T23:00:12Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:01:12Z pjb: DrWat: there's a little detail here. In other languages, the "source code" is a text file. This is some data: text; a string. In lisp, we store also s-expressions in text files. But then the lisp system first reads the text files and produces s-expressions, which are internal data. "(setq x a)" is a string containing characters. It's data. When it's read we get the s-expression (setq x a), which is a list. There's no parenthesis 2015-07-17T23:01:15Z pjb: here. There's a cons cell, a reference to the symbol named "SETQ"; a reference to another cons cell that contains a reference to a symbol named "X" and a reference to the last cons cell which has a reference to the symbol named "A" and the symbol named "NIL". This is only data. 2015-07-17T23:01:20Z pjb: lisp objects, a data structure. 2015-07-17T23:02:48Z pjb: So lisp functions processing lisp data have it easy because they don't have to deal with low level character syntax, scanners, parsers, etc. It all hav been done by the READ function. This is why it's much easier to do meta-programming in lisp than in other programing language. 2015-07-17T23:03:06Z brpocock: The intent of my joke was around prefix-notation though ☺ (* (+ 1 2) 3) is equally as unambiguous as [[1 + 2] * 3] which is different from [1 + 2 * 3] 2015-07-17T23:03:06Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T23:03:38Z pjb: DrWat: ask questions if you don't understand, but there's not much to be known previously to understand it, it's rather stand alone. 2015-07-17T23:04:48Z pjb: brpocock: [[1 + 2 * 4] * 3 + 1] vs. ? 2015-07-17T23:05:11Z pjb: (+ 1 2 3) --> [1 + 2 + 3] is not DRY. 2015-07-17T23:05:18Z pjb: (+ 1 2 3) is DRY. 2015-07-17T23:06:18Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T23:08:42Z DrWat: pjb someone is trying to convince me to learn lisp as a first programming language 2015-07-17T23:09:11Z DrWat: i have a solid mathematical and statistical background but only informal experience with computers 2015-07-17T23:09:48Z DrWat: i want a programming language to make simple turn based games as a hobby 2015-07-17T23:09:57Z DrWat: what are your thoughts? 2015-07-17T23:10:13Z pjb: DrWat: I'd advise to learn lisp as first programming language too. 2015-07-17T23:10:30Z DrWat: why? 2015-07-17T23:10:30Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/rpsls/index.html 2015-07-17T23:10:42Z pjb: You can write simple turn based games in lisp easily. 2015-07-17T23:10:47Z pyon is now known as kawaii-imouto 2015-07-17T23:10:52Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/playtomo-stonedge/index.html 2015-07-17T23:11:52Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-17T23:12:04Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-17T23:12:46Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-17T23:12:52Z patata: DrWat: often I wish lisp was my first language 2015-07-17T23:13:10Z DrWat: why? 2015-07-17T23:13:29Z pjb: Not losing time hating other languages. 2015-07-17T23:13:38Z pjb: DrWat: A good book to learn programming with lisp is: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html 2015-07-17T23:14:05Z patata: It has some advanced features, which are difficult to grasp because more trasitional languages limit you 2015-07-17T23:14:15Z pjb: DrWat: the other languages all have hard limits. Those languages are cast in stone. If there's a feature that prevents you to write a given program easily, you have no way to contourn the problem. 2015-07-17T23:15:31Z pjb: DrWat: on the other hand, since in lisp you can write macros to, in effect, modify the compiler on the run, you can change and extend the language as you wish. Therefore you never bump against a limit, because if you need something to write easily a given program, and this is not available in the language or a library, then you can write a macro to add the feature to the language. 2015-07-17T23:15:32Z DrWat: but 2015-07-17T23:16:00Z DrWat: i want it to run in a browser D: 2015-07-17T23:16:06Z Guest97548 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-17T23:16:12Z pjb: DrWat: with other languages, you'd have to lobby people on the standardization comitee, wait a few years, and see if your modififcations has been added to the language. 2015-07-17T23:16:54Z pjb: Why in the browser? 2015-07-17T23:17:08Z pjb: You can access a lisp on the web: http://hubble.informatimago.com:8116/ 2015-07-17T23:18:02Z DrWat: because i want people that have no console background to be able to play a simple game 2015-07-17T23:18:38Z pjb: You could run the game on the server, and let them access it thru a web page. 2015-07-17T23:18:45Z pjb: There are a few schemes implemented in javascript, but no CL yet. 2015-07-17T23:19:08Z pjb: Perhaps someone will target the browsers with webassembly? 2015-07-17T23:19:08Z patata: well there are lisp->js compilers.... 2015-07-17T23:19:32Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-17T23:19:36Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-07-17T23:22:08Z DrWat: hmm 2015-07-17T23:22:37Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-17T23:22:43Z pjb: DrWat: have a look at: http://www.adamtornhill.com/articles/lispweb.htm 2015-07-17T23:23:26Z pjb: DrWat: otherwise, currently the solution is to generate javascript from a Common Lisp program on the server, using parenscript. 2015-07-17T23:23:38Z pjb: minion: tell DrWat about parenscript 2015-07-17T23:23:39Z minion: parenscript: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/parenscript 2015-07-17T23:23:50Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:25:19Z pjb: DrWat: with some work, you could assemble a tool chain to translate CL code to C, and then translate C to javascript. 2015-07-17T23:25:26Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:25:51Z pjb: For CL->C there's clicc (free) and mocl (commercial); they're only support a subset of CL. 2015-07-17T23:26:03Z DrWat: i don't think that sounds reasonable for someone who's learning a first programming language 2015-07-17T23:26:23Z DrWat: i meann... 2015-07-17T23:26:28Z pjb: For C->javascript there's clang + emscripten . 2015-07-17T23:28:32Z pjb: So you could try to set up a compiling chain such as CL -> [ clicc ] -> C -> [ clang ] -> LLVM -> [ emscripten ] -> javascript. 2015-07-17T23:29:02Z pjb: You would use CL to develop and debug locally, and when you've got a running program on your workstation, you'd use the translation chain to obtain the javascript to be tested on the browser. 2015-07-17T23:29:14Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:29:48Z patata quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-17T23:30:08Z pjb: The advantage would be that it would be possible to use other chains, to produce games on smart phones, on desktop computers, etc. 2015-07-17T23:30:17Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T23:32:45Z pjb: DrWat: see a simple hangman game written in CL running on MacOSX: http://cliki.net/com.informatimago.hangman 2015-07-17T23:35:51Z patata joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:35:59Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-17T23:37:23Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-17T23:40:51Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:41:47Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-17T23:47:50Z micro_ joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:47:52Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:51:37Z arpunk quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-17T23:51:52Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:52:59Z DrWat: ty pjb 2015-07-17T23:54:19Z patata quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-17T23:54:35Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:55:01Z arpunk quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-17T23:55:17Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:58:01Z mfranzwa quit (Quit: mfranzwa) 2015-07-17T23:58:46Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-17T23:59:43Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:03:30Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T00:09:00Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:13:46Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T00:13:56Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:17:28Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:18:37Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T00:18:41Z mascota joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:18:48Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:23:00Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T00:23:11Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:23:22Z badkins quit 2015-07-18T00:24:38Z dubkoidragon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T00:27:57Z ghard``` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T00:31:20Z jasom: pjb: is there a clicc that is updated for ANSI? Last version I found was CLtL 2015-07-18T00:31:30Z mascota quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-07-18T00:32:10Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:32:31Z jasom: DrWat: parenscript is a fairly straightforward way to emit javascript from lisp. The macros in parenscript are full CL code that emits javascript. 2015-07-18T00:33:55Z jasom: oh, parenscript *won't* give you a browser REPL though 2015-07-18T00:34:19Z dubkoidragon joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:34:33Z jasom has about 1% of a common lisp interpreter written in parenscript, I put it on hold to try and get eclipse working with emscripten 2015-07-18T00:38:10Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:38:50Z dubkoidragon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T00:42:51Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T00:43:18Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-18T00:44:08Z aeth: oh wow. I had something printing from 1 to 20 and I've been running this over and over again, and for some reason once it showed 4 twice instead of 3. strange. 2015-07-18T00:44:23Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:44:33Z dafunktion quit 2015-07-18T00:46:39Z aeth: I guess maybe threads aren't as easy as I thought. 2015-07-18T00:46:59Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T00:48:06Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:48:10Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:48:11Z aeth: Oh, I think I see what's going on. I guess I shouldn't trust scope when there are threads. 2015-07-18T00:49:41Z MasterPiece quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-18T00:49:47Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:50:08Z micro joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:50:13Z micro quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-18T00:50:35Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:50:43Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:51:01Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:51:24Z kanru quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T00:53:23Z Xach rebuilds quicklisp world with a new SSD on the build server 2015-07-18T00:53:44Z Riastradh joined #lisp 2015-07-18T00:55:19Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T00:55:58Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-18T00:58:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: Took less time? 2015-07-18T00:59:02Z Xach: Petit_Dejeuner: still pending 2015-07-18T00:59:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ah, so not THAT much faster. 2015-07-18T01:00:14Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:00:25Z Xach: Petit_Dejeuner: it normally takes more than 2 hours, so the jury's still out 2015-07-18T01:01:50Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:02:00Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:05:01Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T01:06:40Z nisstyre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T01:09:13Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T01:09:18Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-18T01:13:50Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-18T01:14:57Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-18T01:15:14Z ronh quit 2015-07-18T01:18:24Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:19:18Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-18T01:20:59Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:23:29Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:25:36Z bola joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:27:52Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-18T01:29:48Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-18T01:31:47Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:34:13Z aap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T01:34:54Z aap joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:39:18Z jasom: aeth: do not share state between threads 2015-07-18T01:39:19Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:39:20Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:39:41Z jasom: or at least state that you plan to mutate 2015-07-18T01:44:12Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T01:45:18Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-07-18T01:52:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T01:52:45Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T01:53:51Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T01:54:35Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:00:15Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-18T02:08:50Z jumblerg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T02:17:47Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T02:17:54Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:18:23Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T02:19:57Z nidhogg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T02:23:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T02:23:26Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:24:09Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:28:50Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T02:28:59Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:32:34Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:33:43Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T02:33:55Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:38:07Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T02:38:17Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:43:01Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T02:43:10Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:46:57Z bola quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-07-18T02:47:50Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T02:48:05Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:48:51Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:49:45Z jrm quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-18T02:51:16Z Chippie00 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:52:15Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T02:52:25Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:52:54Z eazar001_ is now known as eazar001 2015-07-18T02:53:09Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:57:04Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T02:57:14Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T02:58:39Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - 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Has anyone here much experience with CFFi-Grovel? 2015-07-18T03:28:50Z elderK: I was wondering if anyone's noticed that you have to export the slot names for "cstruct"s. 2015-07-18T03:29:00Z elderK: Otherwise you can't access the slots from other packages with foreign-slot-value 2015-07-18T03:29:06Z elderK: ? 2015-07-18T03:30:28Z ghard```` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T03:31:20Z nyef: If the slot names are symbols then I'd expect to have to export them. 2015-07-18T03:32:27Z elderK: Okay, cool. I was just wondering if I was doing something wrong. 2015-07-18T03:36:26Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-18T03:36:50Z elderK: Next question! How do you guys create/manage buffers that're sent into foreign programs? 2015-07-18T03:36:56Z elderK: Say for asynchronous calls. 2015-07-18T03:37:03Z elderK: I figure you'd just allocate some foreign memory, manage that. 2015-07-18T03:37:12Z elderK: And marshal as necessary? 2015-07-18T03:37:25Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-18T03:37:57Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-18T03:38:14Z nyef: For me, it varies, and I try not to use foreign libraries if I can avoid it, anyway, so I'm not the best person to answer that. 2015-07-18T03:38:33Z elderK nods 2015-07-18T03:38:57Z elderK: I'm just playing around with sockets and binding stuff like epoll and Win32 IOCP. 2015-07-18T03:41:23Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T03:42:21Z jumblerg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T03:42:23Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-18T03:42:24Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T03:44:12Z coyo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-18T03:45:04Z aeth: jasom: interestingly, I didn't think it was a problem because the thing that was causing the problem was (1+ i) in a lambda, but I guess the issue was that it was being executed in another thread or something. 2015-07-18T03:45:35Z aeth: Moving the (1+ i) into a let statement before the lambad fixed it, that calculation for some reason didn't play nice with threads. Now I can see why people have issues with threads. 2015-07-18T03:45:56Z aeth: (All of this is for a FORMAT string that I'm not going to have in the final code anyway.) 2015-07-18T03:46:11Z elderK quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-18T03:46:22Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-18T03:47:15Z aeth: I thought that the (1+ i) would be safe because it wasn't mutating, it was creating a copy and not changing the original, but for some reason this caused the thing that would normally count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... to count e.g. 2, 2, 3, 4, 4 2015-07-18T03:49:18Z aeth: I guess there was some issue with the order of execution when I was passing in a lambda to a function that created a thread and then funcalled that lambda. 2015-07-18T03:59:59Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-18T04:00:07Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T04:08:59Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T04:10:53Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T04:11:13Z Layla joined #lisp 2015-07-18T04:11:39Z Layla: #topchat 2015-07-18T04:12:19Z Layla left #lisp 2015-07-18T04:25:23Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T04:29:20Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T04:34:27Z jusss joined #lisp 2015-07-18T04:35:18Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T04:35:47Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T04:39:54Z Vicfred joined #lisp 2015-07-18T04:39:55Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-18T04:40:20Z GLM joined #lisp 2015-07-18T04:42:22Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T04:45:00Z eazar_bookworm joined #lisp 2015-07-18T04:54:18Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T04:56:23Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-18T04:56:39Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-18T05:01:34Z guthur`` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:01:34Z Chippie00 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-18T05:02:55Z jusss is now known as pears 2015-07-18T05:04:36Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T05:08:29Z ArcaneReality joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:09:22Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-18T05:09:24Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-18T05:12:43Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:20:59Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:21:36Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T05:22:54Z totaleclipse joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:24:04Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T05:26:16Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:28:16Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T05:30:30Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T05:30:53Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T05:31:04Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:31:16Z seg joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:32:35Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:34:56Z akersof quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T05:35:05Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:35:44Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T05:35:54Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:36:22Z guthur`` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T05:40:30Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T05:40:41Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:45:27Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T05:46:03Z vlnx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T05:46:25Z Vicfred quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T05:47:27Z guthur`` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:49:51Z GLM quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-18T05:51:55Z GLM joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:54:23Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:54:38Z codeitagile quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T05:55:47Z ahungry: So, I had to get latest sbcl from the github repo since sourceforge seems down for it at the moment, now i get this error when quickloading 'access' http://sprunge.us/XQhL 2015-07-18T05:56:24Z ahungry: I assume its an issue with the 'access' library under latest sbcl? 2015-07-18T05:57:52Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:58:14Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T05:58:49Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:59:05Z codeitagile joined #lisp 2015-07-18T05:59:42Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-18T05:59:47Z ahungry: Ok, not familiar with &aux and &environment, but removing &environment and putting 'env' after the &aux call seems to let it load 2015-07-18T06:00:55Z Bike: &environment should go after &aux 2015-07-18T06:01:02Z Bike: clhs 3.4.4 2015-07-18T06:01:02Z specbot: Macro Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dd.htm 2015-07-18T06:02:32Z ahungry: Ok so it is an issue with a library in quicklisp 2015-07-18T06:03:04Z ahungry: i guess sbcl prior to now didn't bother to enforce it maybe 2015-07-18T06:06:57Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-18T06:09:10Z bertro joined #lisp 2015-07-18T06:15:07Z synergy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T06:15:27Z synergy_: Why does (consp nil) return NIL when (listp nil) returns T? 2015-07-18T06:16:42Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-18T06:16:42Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-07-18T06:16:42Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-18T06:24:41Z PuercoPop: synergy_: check the second definition in the glossary http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm 2015-07-18T06:25:09Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T06:25:37Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T06:26:42Z guthur`` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T06:27:15Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-18T06:27:56Z synergy_: Ahh 2015-07-18T06:28:14Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-18T06:28:22Z synergy_: So all lists are objects consed to the empty list? 2015-07-18T06:28:33Z PuercoPop: basically nil is an atom, a cons is a pair where two objects can be stored 2015-07-18T06:28:53Z PuercoPop: the empty list is the atom nil 2015-07-18T06:29:52Z PuercoPop: and a list has the car, the first object stored in a cons, be an element and the rest of the list in a cons in the cdr of the first cons 2015-07-18T06:30:08Z PuercoPop: so the list (1 2 3) is really (1 . (2 . (3 . nil))) 2015-07-18T06:30:55Z PuercoPop: you can think of nil as a marker that signals the end of a list 2015-07-18T06:31:05Z PuercoPop: makes sense? 2015-07-18T06:32:42Z synergy_: Oh, it was a reading misunderstanding. When it said a "union of null and cons" I assumed that it would be something like (cons () ...). I understood that lists *ended* in nil. 2015-07-18T06:33:00Z synergy_: I thought they were saying that each list was a list consed to nil 2015-07-18T06:36:02Z PuercoPop: one can say they end in nil, as the last cons of a proper list should have its cdr be nil. 2015-07-18T06:36:56Z PuercoPop: to understand it better try writing a function that transverses a list recursively 2015-07-18T06:40:23Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-18T06:41:16Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-07-18T06:44:15Z synergy_: Ok, did it. I see what you mean 2015-07-18T06:46:35Z pears quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T06:48:58Z totaleclipse quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-18T06:48:58Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-18T06:56:04Z eazar_bookworm quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-18T07:02:31Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-18T07:02:58Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:04:39Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:08:14Z dubkoidragon joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:09:27Z synergy_: If I have a function that returns a lambda and the lambda needs to be recursive, how can I refer to it inside itself? 2015-07-18T07:10:14Z pgomes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T07:10:21Z dtw: synergy_, you can't. 2015-07-18T07:11:08Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:11:53Z eazar_hardwork joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:14:27Z synergy_: Why is that so? 2015-07-18T07:14:40Z synergy_: Does it have to do with the scope of the lambda? 2015-07-18T07:14:45Z PuercoPop: you can, read about the y-combinator 2015-07-18T07:15:02Z PuercoPop: which is about recursive anonymous functions 2015-07-18T07:15:05Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:15:13Z PuercoPop: but why would you want to that in the first place? 2015-07-18T07:15:36Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:18:17Z synergy_: It's a really contrived example. I'm making a function that returns a function that cycles through numbers until it reaches an upper bound set in the maker function. So you'd do something like (setf cycle33 (make-cycler 33)) 2015-07-18T07:18:23Z synergy_: Just for practice 2015-07-18T07:18:41Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-18T07:19:00Z PuercoPop: I think you'd really enjoy the little schemer then. 2015-07-18T07:19:58Z synergy_: The little schemer? 2015-07-18T07:20:14Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:20:22Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:21:35Z GLM quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-18T07:22:17Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T07:23:20Z PuercoPop: it is a book, in most editions it uses scheme only so it is off-topicish in this channel. It has a maieutic Q&A format, It starts nice and slow too. It 'answers' (by asking questions) both your questions. The one about consp/listp and the recursive lambda. 2015-07-18T07:25:08Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T07:25:32Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:26:13Z guthur`` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:27:07Z loz1: hi #lisp, I want to learn and practice designing and implementing dsl's, could you point me to good sources of information on that topic? 2015-07-18T07:27:45Z synergy_: Ohh, I've seen this book while watching some intro videos to lisp 2015-07-18T07:28:04Z synergy_: And now I'm absolutely curious about the y combinator 2015-07-18T07:29:45Z synergy_: Haskell Curry seems like a genius 2015-07-18T07:30:07Z PuercoPop: loz1: I enjoyed http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2068896 2015-07-18T07:31:04Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:31:20Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-18T07:31:29Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:31:43Z keen__________24 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:32:47Z keen__________23 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T07:33:14Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-18T07:34:06Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:35:22Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T07:36:10Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:37:23Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:38:09Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:38:21Z defaultxr quit (Quit: defaultxr) 2015-07-18T07:43:38Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T07:43:42Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:45:40Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T07:51:45Z bertro quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T07:54:00Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-07-18T07:55:39Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:00:24Z guthur`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T08:01:32Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:01:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:03:38Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-18T08:05:15Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-07-18T08:09:36Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:17:22Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-18T08:20:37Z GLM joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:21:20Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T08:21:49Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:24:03Z GLM quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-18T08:24:58Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T08:25:27Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:29:39Z pnpuff quit (Quit: qicr for android: faster and better) 2015-07-18T08:30:53Z synergy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T08:32:12Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T08:34:18Z chelseaclinton joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:37:15Z chelseaclinton: hi 2015-07-18T08:40:02Z hitecnologys: Is there anything built-in in CL that can help me determine number of processors system has? 2015-07-18T08:40:10Z Quadrescence: no 2015-07-18T08:40:10Z minion: Quadrescence, memo from pjb: aren't you satisfied by Vacietis? 2015-07-18T08:40:19Z Quadrescence: pjb, absolutely not 2015-07-18T08:40:51Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: bleh, OK, thanks. 2015-07-18T08:41:40Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:43:33Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:43:35Z sdemarre1 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:43:57Z beach: G'day everyone! 2015-07-18T08:44:07Z hitecnologys: beach: greetings! 2015-07-18T08:44:34Z p_l: ~/20 2015-07-18T08:44:37Z p_l: eh 2015-07-18T08:44:44Z p_l: good morning by the way ;) 2015-07-18T08:44:58Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:45:05Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: but couldn't Vacietis be enhanced to the point you are satisfied with it? 2015-07-18T08:45:13Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-18T08:46:19Z Quadrescence: I don't think so. 2015-07-18T08:46:38Z Quadrescence: To do the compiler properly I think one needs to be intimate with the runtime implementation. 2015-07-18T08:48:51Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-07-18T08:50:12Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T08:52:58Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T09:03:51Z bertro joined #lisp 2015-07-18T09:04:00Z beach: I don't know of *any* language that has a built-in function to determine how many processors the computer has. 2015-07-18T09:07:57Z antoszka: I'm sure there are some specialized language/architecture combos that have such built-ins (like Cray stuff maybe), but certainly that wouldn't be mainstream stuff :). 2015-07-18T09:12:27Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-18T09:15:04Z Shinmera: beach: Java has Runtime.availableProcessors 2015-07-18T09:16:34Z beach: Last time I looked, Java was not a language but a programming system entirely controlled by a single company. For it to count as a "language", I require it to have an independent standard. 2015-07-18T09:17:08Z Shinmera: beach: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/ 2015-07-18T09:17:29Z Shinmera: There's multiple Java implementations too, but either way, this isn't #java 2015-07-18T09:17:39Z dmitigr: beach: you may impl. you own JVM 2015-07-18T09:17:54Z dmitigr: beach: in theory, or course :) 2015-07-18T09:18:14Z beach: Whatever. 2015-07-18T09:19:07Z zacts: the USA I think now copyrights APIs 2015-07-18T09:19:16Z DrWatto joined #lisp 2015-07-18T09:19:20Z beach: That hasn't been settled yet. 2015-07-18T09:19:21Z zacts: so if so, then watch out! if you want to reimplement your own JVM 2015-07-18T09:19:27Z zacts: beach: ah ok 2015-07-18T09:19:38Z zacts: -> think <- keyword 2015-07-18T09:19:39Z zacts: :-D 2015-07-18T09:19:50Z DrWat quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T09:19:58Z beach: But yeah, I am following that evolution with great interest. 2015-07-18T09:20:55Z zacts: yeah, I hope this doesn't get set in stone 2015-07-18T09:21:21Z zacts: if it does, then the corruption is possibly beyond repair 2015-07-18T09:21:21Z beach: To me, it would be amusing. I have told people for decades that Java might be a trap like that. 2015-07-18T09:21:58Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-18T09:23:06Z zacts: well, hopefully oracle will get close, and then fail... and we'll be looking back at how silly oracle was. 2015-07-18T09:23:07Z PuercoPop: According to Bill gates deposition Java means multiple things. One is Java the language and another is Java the platform (jdk/jre) 2015-07-18T09:23:12Z GLM joined #lisp 2015-07-18T09:23:15Z beach: For decades, I have told my students that the risk involved in choosing a "language" that does not have an independent standard for an important commercial project should result in the person making that decision being fired. 2015-07-18T09:23:30Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T09:24:28Z zacts: I'm glad I personally didn't get too far into java... I wonder how an API copyright would affect clojure and jruby projects though 2015-07-18T09:24:30Z beach: I still remember when Sun Microsystems decided to change some libraries, making lots of code obsolete. Oracle can very well do the same. 2015-07-18T09:25:36Z GLM quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-18T09:25:38Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-07-18T09:26:52Z dmitigr: beach: but how about hardware/firmware? there is no independent standard for it. and anyway one should choise the vendor at least for it. 2015-07-18T09:27:35Z beach: dmitigr: "choose" 2015-07-18T09:28:12Z beach: dmitigr: I recommend you read the latest comments by RMS on "free hardware". It is significantly different from software. 2015-07-18T09:28:47Z clique: RMS? 2015-07-18T09:28:54Z beach: Richard Stallman. 2015-07-18T09:28:55Z zacts: clique: richard matthew stallman 2015-07-18T09:29:19Z beach: dmitigr: Just because we don't have much choice when it comes to hardware doesn't mean we should commit collective suicide when it comes to software. 2015-07-18T09:29:22Z zacts: it's his first, middle, and last initials (an old MIT tradition for login names to timesharing systems) 2015-07-18T09:29:26Z clique: i was thinking to root mean squares :( 2015-07-18T09:29:37Z zacts: or so I understand it as such 2015-07-18T09:29:51Z beach: zacts: I think that is correct, yes. 2015-07-18T09:31:08Z Niac quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T09:31:14Z dmitigr: beach: there is no freedom anyway. 2015-07-18T09:31:41Z dmitigr: nowhere 2015-07-18T09:31:43Z beach: Besides this is #lisp. One of our great arguments (in my opinion) is that there is a stable independent standard, and choosing Common Lisp for a project means that if your current software vendor goes bust, there are many others to choose from. 2015-07-18T09:32:11Z beach: dmitigr: That level of philosophy is off-topic for #lisp. 2015-07-18T09:34:25Z clique: freedom maybe not but degree of freedom yes 2015-07-18T09:34:52Z dmitigr: beach: QED. :) 2015-07-18T09:35:13Z zacts: dmitigr: I think square boxes are now more common than QED 2015-07-18T09:35:13Z clique: QED? 2015-07-18T09:35:17Z zacts: clique: it's latin 2015-07-18T09:35:19Z zacts: it's for math proofs 2015-07-18T09:35:29Z zacts: it's a traditional convention for ending a proof 2015-07-18T09:35:37Z zacts: but it's old school 2015-07-18T09:35:45Z beach: quod erat demonstrandum 2015-07-18T09:35:46Z zacts: now people usually use boxes, at least where I'm at 2015-07-18T09:35:58Z zacts: sorry, it's a latin acronym 2015-07-18T09:36:06Z zacts: I forgot the word acronym there 2015-07-18T09:36:24Z beach: clique: Your TLAs are not up to standard. 2015-07-18T09:36:35Z zacts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D. 2015-07-18T09:37:14Z clique: TLAs? oO :) 2015-07-18T09:37:15Z beach: clique: Three Letter Acronyms 2015-07-18T09:37:18Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-18T09:37:52Z zacts: clique: btw there are a couple of great books on math proofs, but also there is a software book that applies math proofs and logic to programming (not lisp specific, but it can be directly applied to lisp) 2015-07-18T09:37:59Z zacts: Software Foundations is the name of the book 2015-07-18T09:38:06Z zacts: by Pierce (the author) 2015-07-18T09:38:10Z zacts: it's creative commons 2015-07-18T09:38:14Z zacts: afaik 2015-07-18T09:38:30Z beach: In fact, I think the "standards" argument in favor of Common Lisp should be pushed a lot more than I see done. 2015-07-18T09:38:42Z guthur`` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T09:38:43Z zacts: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/sf/current/toc.html 2015-07-18T09:38:44Z zacts: fwiw 2015-07-18T09:39:05Z zacts: (for what it's worth) 2015-07-18T09:39:16Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T09:39:45Z beach: A very rudimentary risk analysis would be revealing for a project that chooses Java. But I guess companies that choose Java also have no clue how to do a risk analysis. 2015-07-18T09:40:39Z zacts: beach: nor do they probably know what modus tollens is... 2015-07-18T09:41:27Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T09:42:57Z zacts: I'm a latin snob now... ugh.. 2015-07-18T09:43:08Z zacts: I've been learning lingva latina lately 2015-07-18T09:43:42Z zacts: oh well... perhaps a lisp or scheme equivalent of Lingua::Romana::Perligata will happen 2015-07-18T09:43:47Z zacts: that would be interesting 2015-07-18T09:43:59Z zacts: but scheme is not structured this way... 2015-07-18T09:44:24Z zacts: you would only be using latin words to name functions or variables 2015-07-18T09:44:40Z zacts: much of the latin I think in Perligata is describing the syntax 2015-07-18T09:45:07Z zacts: hm... so yeah.. lisp perligata would probably just be latin nouns and verbs in parenthesis 2015-07-18T09:47:56Z clique: .... how language shapes thought xd 2015-07-18T10:17:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:17:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-18T10:17:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:19:27Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:21:02Z dubkoidragon quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-18T10:21:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:21:53Z tkd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T10:22:13Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:23:46Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-18T10:24:18Z tkd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T10:24:35Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:24:53Z tkd quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-18T10:25:53Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:26:48Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T10:26:50Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T10:27:23Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:34:46Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:34:50Z pjb: PuercoPop: LIST is (OR CONS NULL). Therefore (1 . 2) is a LIST. And so is #1=(1 . #1#). 2015-07-18T10:35:12Z pjb: PuercoPop: There are proper lists, dotted lists and circular lists. 2015-07-18T10:35:40Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-18T10:35:53Z oleo__: morning pjb 2015-07-18T10:36:18Z pjb: PuercoPop: We would want to (deftype proper-list (&optional (element-type *)) `(cons element-type proper-list)) but unfortunately the CL type system doesn't allow it. 2015-07-18T10:36:20Z pjb: oleo__: hitecnologys 2015-07-18T10:36:21Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:36:24Z pjb: oleo__: hi! 2015-07-18T10:37:36Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-18T10:37:53Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: ? 2015-07-18T10:38:02Z jackdaniel: hm? 2015-07-18T10:38:18Z jackdaniel: co ja? zrobilem cos? :D 2015-07-18T10:38:57Z ArcaneReality quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T10:39:04Z jackdaniel: dmitigr: "?" ? 2015-07-18T10:39:06Z PuercoPop: pjb: hmm had forgotten of circular lists, you are right. 2015-07-18T10:39:11Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: hi! could you tell me please what is si:reset-margin in sys::stack-error-handler in clos/conditions.lsp? 2015-07-18T10:39:18Z sdemarre1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T10:39:57Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: because I'm unable to build ECL with C++ compiler with a error: clos/conditions.c:3676:22: error: ‘si_reset_margin’ was not declared in this scope 2015-07-18T10:40:16Z jackdaniel: dmitigr: it is safe area necessary to perform restart, if stack overflow occurs 2015-07-18T10:40:38Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-18T10:40:50Z jackdaniel: if I remember correctly 2015-07-18T10:41:04Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T10:41:13Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:43:07Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-18T10:43:37Z jackdaniel: wrong, it's function, which resets safe area to default value 2015-07-18T10:44:26Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: and where this function defined in Lisp and why it does'nt seen by C++ compiler? 2015-07-18T10:45:27Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:45:59Z jackdaniel: hm, it is added. it is defined in src/c/stacks.d and added in src/c/symbols_list.h and src/h/internal.h (maybe it should be in external.h for c++ compiler? not sure) - commit 44c58e95f74 2015-07-18T10:47:25Z jackdaniel: you did make clean before build, right? 2015-07-18T10:47:39Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: uh, it's foreign C func. yes, I did 2015-07-18T10:48:19Z jackdaniel: hm, on compiler level it's bit fuzzy what is foreign and what's not :) 2015-07-18T10:48:45Z jackdaniel: I'll examine it on monday (c++ build) if you will be so kind to make an issue on gitlab 2015-07-18T10:49:13Z jackdaniel: preferably with patch :D 2015-07-18T10:49:43Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: no problem, and probably I'll try to understand whats going on. But I'm very new, so I don't promise. 2015-07-18T10:50:04Z scottj left #lisp 2015-07-18T10:50:06Z jackdaniel: dmitigr: probably function has to be declared in external.h, that would be my first guess 2015-07-18T10:50:10Z jackdaniel: thanks :) 2015-07-18T10:50:19Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: I see where ECL can be useful for me, so I want to understand it. 2015-07-18T10:50:41Z jackdaniel: sure, if you have any questions don't hestitate to ask 2015-07-18T10:51:21Z jackdaniel: if I'm not responding leave a memo 2015-07-18T10:51:47Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: btw, I can provide a mirror for ECL a bit later since AKAIK ECL is also hosted on SF 2015-07-18T10:52:03Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: and it's down 2015-07-18T10:52:22Z jackdaniel: ecl is hosted on gitlab and cl.net, sf keeps only ml as primary resource 2015-07-18T10:52:38Z dmitigr: uh 2015-07-18T10:53:09Z jackdaniel: page is there obviously, but next release in form of tarball will be published on cl.net 2015-07-18T10:54:47Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T10:54:57Z jackdaniel: thanks tough :) I've got to go, my flat is so dirty, that I can't delay cleaning anymore ;) 2015-07-18T10:55:26Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: good luck! thanks! :) 2015-07-18T10:55:42Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-18T10:56:13Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:58:23Z SpikeMaster joined #lisp 2015-07-18T10:59:23Z SpikeMaster quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-07-18T11:00:08Z pjb: hitecnologys: Have a look at #+linux (assoc :cpu-cores (com.informatimago.clmisc.resource-utilization::cpu-info)) ; but if you're in Xen, you'll won't get the real number. 2015-07-18T11:04:10Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:04:42Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-18T11:05:44Z pjb: zacts: perligata is antithetic to lisp. In lisp, the point is that operator and arguments are positionnal in an ordered list. In perligata, the function is given by the symbol suffix, and order doesn't matter much. Of course, you can implement any layer of DSL, but it would not be fun to be writing macros in perligata. 2015-07-18T11:05:49Z pjb: or lispigata. 2015-07-18T11:07:48Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:08:50Z dmitigr quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2015-07-18T11:12:16Z nowhere_man_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T11:12:34Z nowhere_man_ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:12:42Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T11:13:59Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:21:07Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:26:29Z shifty quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T11:26:47Z shifty joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:29:44Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T11:31:05Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T11:32:14Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:32:47Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:32:47Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-18T11:32:47Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:34:56Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-18T11:36:43Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T11:37:36Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:38:45Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-18T11:42:39Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:45:27Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T11:45:41Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T11:48:36Z chelseaclinton quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T11:51:05Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T11:51:50Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:00:59Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:05:45Z ndrei quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-18T12:06:06Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:08:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:09:07Z pjb is now known as Guest50523 2015-07-18T12:10:45Z sebbee joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:10:47Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T12:11:21Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:13:09Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:13:33Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T12:17:40Z sebbee: are there any channels where i could talk about computer architecture, pipelines and processors? 2015-07-18T12:17:41Z minion: sebbee, memo from pjb: that's because you don't see anything wrong in the code, that you should use emacs; check the indentation, use M-x check-parens RET 2015-07-18T12:17:41Z minion: sebbee, memo from pjb: clisp is the Common Lisp implementation written in C. C lisp. clisp. (but it still has a number of things implemented in CL, including notably the compiler). Other implementations, even ecl or gcl are mostly implemented in CL. 2015-07-18T12:22:33Z sebbee: oh cool a memo 2015-07-18T12:24:23Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:24:28Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:25:00Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T12:26:04Z eazar_hardwork quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-18T12:27:00Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:27:08Z Jaskologist_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-18T12:28:19Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T12:30:17Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:36:48Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:38:07Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T12:38:35Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T12:38:54Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:40:41Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:41:55Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-18T12:47:09Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T12:49:53Z bertro quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T12:50:19Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-07-18T12:53:49Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-18T12:55:31Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T12:58:49Z jasom: sebbee: you can talk about whatever you want in #lispcafe ... 2015-07-18T13:01:31Z bertro joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:03:15Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:04:55Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:06:47Z ktt9 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:06:57Z ktt9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T13:07:04Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:07:19Z pacon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T13:10:07Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:10:36Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T13:11:24Z smithzv joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:13:08Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:13:47Z qubitner1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T13:14:30Z loz1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-18T13:15:58Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:16:23Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:17:05Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:20:57Z otjura: while on topic of that memo, is there any reason to use any other implementation than SBCL? 2015-07-18T13:21:28Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T13:21:45Z beach: otjura: Very strange question. 2015-07-18T13:22:36Z digiorgi: SBCL is not good with multi-threading in windows 2015-07-18T13:22:39Z beach: otjura: Clasp is better if you want to interact with C++. CLISP has better long floats, ECL is designed to be embeddable, LispWorks has an excellent IDE. etc, etc, etc. 2015-07-18T13:23:45Z otjura: aha 2015-07-18T13:24:42Z otjura: out of free implementations, what is most recommended for server and desktop development? 2015-07-18T13:24:51Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T13:26:18Z jackdaniel: many people advice using CCL for development, while SBCL for final production image 2015-07-18T13:26:59Z otjura: why separate? 2015-07-18T13:27:14Z jackdaniel: probably due to tradeoff - CCL compiles faster, while SBCL produces better optimized code 2015-07-18T13:30:33Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:30:38Z beach: otjura: You won't find reliable answers to such a general question. Many people here are involved in the development of one or more implementations. Aside from jackdaniel, those people are unlikely to recommend any implementation other than the one they have chosen to work on. 2015-07-18T13:31:06Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-18T13:31:16Z otjura: understandable. lispers appear to be very passionate. 2015-07-18T13:31:49Z beach: I think that is very general human nature. 2015-07-18T13:32:03Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:32:15Z beach: otjura: Try asking specific questions instead. Compilation speed is one. Execution speed another. 2015-07-18T13:32:39Z beach: otjura: Quality of backtrace, explicit error messages, 2015-07-18T13:32:51Z otjura: execution speed and image size are the kings for me. 2015-07-18T13:33:00Z beach: See, that wasn't too hard. 2015-07-18T13:33:22Z jackdaniel: ECL produces really small images ;0 2015-07-18T13:33:25Z jackdaniel: : ;-) 2015-07-18T13:33:30Z beach: otjura: For example, many people complain about the size of an executable produced by SBCL. 2015-07-18T13:34:18Z beach: Not that I can understand the reasons for that, but hey, that's what some do. 2015-07-18T13:35:56Z z0d: well, Lisp applications and applications these days don't mix 2015-07-18T13:36:24Z jackdaniel: what do you mean z0d ? 2015-07-18T13:36:26Z z0d: it's hard to justify a Hello World program which is 120 MB 2015-07-18T13:36:37Z z0d: and I understand why it's 120 MB 2015-07-18T13:36:50Z beach: It is hard to justify delivering a "hello world" program. Period. 2015-07-18T13:37:00Z jackdaniel: hm, cl-launch takes approach from busybox - multicall binary 2015-07-18T13:37:02Z z0d: but still, we should let people have small executables 2015-07-18T13:37:07Z z0d: even if that's not Lispy 2015-07-18T13:37:35Z jackdaniel: so you can deliver n apps and size is log(n) 2015-07-18T13:37:42Z jackdaniel: * 120M 2015-07-18T13:38:01Z jackdaniel: but as already noted, ecl produces images ~3MB :p 2015-07-18T13:38:30Z z0d: my point is that in a "final" release, you don't want to ship with a full blown Lisp environment. just my opinion 2015-07-18T13:38:43Z jackdaniel: it's a great feature 2015-07-18T13:38:55Z jackdaniel: to have whole language at your disposal when using application 2015-07-18T13:39:09Z z0d: yes 2015-07-18T13:39:15Z z0d: but the end user will never use it 2015-07-18T13:39:27Z jackdaniel: you may use it, when something *breaks* and you have to fix it 2015-07-18T13:39:34Z jackdaniel: for user that is 2015-07-18T13:39:38Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:39:56Z jackdaniel: you may benefit from examining image - what is wrong - and it's easier to find bug 2015-07-18T13:40:05Z jackdaniel: coredumps are cool, but not even close to that 2015-07-18T13:40:48Z z0d: you don't need to have the debugger in a product for that. you can have a development version or use your own ccopy 2015-07-18T13:41:02Z Shinmera: Having the fully fledged environment available also allows you to ship diagnostics extensions to your customer that perform new things the software wasn't originally intended for. 2015-07-18T13:41:08Z jackdaniel: yes, unless bug is really rare and you have no idea how to reproduce that 2015-07-18T13:41:14Z otjura: w..what.. I can't just create a.out file that's just the application code with lisp? 2015-07-18T13:41:19Z jackdaniel: then you may use customer image, hwere bug is triggered already 2015-07-18T13:41:35Z Shinmera: otjura: You can create a single binary. 2015-07-18T13:41:41Z z0d: otjura: there are tree shakers that can do that 2015-07-18T13:41:50Z Shinmera: You don't need a tree shaker to create a binary. 2015-07-18T13:42:06Z z0d: yeah, but he was also cconcerned about size 2015-07-18T13:42:06Z jackdaniel: most implementations let you to create binary (if not all) 2015-07-18T13:42:21Z otjura: Shinmera: one that runs like ones created with gcc? 2015-07-18T13:42:27Z Shinmera: otjura: What does that mean? 2015-07-18T13:42:40Z jackdaniel: otjura: binary, which runs like that: $ ./a.out 2015-07-18T13:42:41Z Shinmera: gcc is orthogonal to binaries in general. 2015-07-18T13:42:42Z jackdaniel: and it works 2015-07-18T13:42:58Z otjura: jackdaniel: ah great, was worried for a while here 2015-07-18T13:43:02Z |3b|: otjura: you can create an elf (or whatever) executable, it just tends to include the entire runtime of the lisp in it 2015-07-18T13:43:59Z beach: otjura: The C world depends on libc being already installed on the platform that you deploy on. Common Lisp can not (at the moment) make any such assumptions. 2015-07-18T13:44:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T13:44:52Z beach: otjura: And since a typical Common Lisp implementation needs not only a garbage collector, but often also a compiler at run-time in order to make CLOS fast, the image needs to contain the complete compiler as well. 2015-07-18T13:45:41Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T13:46:38Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T13:47:25Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:49:06Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:49:48Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:51:39Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:56:03Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T13:56:11Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:56:26Z dubkoidragon joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:56:42Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-18T13:57:12Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T13:57:45Z clique quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T13:59:49Z hitecnologys: minion: memo for pjb: oh, sorry, I was afk. Will check that out, thanks. 2015-07-18T13:59:49Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-18T14:01:22Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T14:02:48Z jackdaniel: minion: botsnack 2015-07-18T14:02:49Z minion: botsnack: thanks 2015-07-18T14:02:56Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:02:58Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:03:02Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-18T14:03:45Z beatz joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:04:46Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-18T14:05:13Z Riastradh joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:06:51Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:10:48Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:11:52Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-18T14:12:42Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:17:00Z theos: good evening 2015-07-18T14:17:08Z beach: Hello theos. 2015-07-18T14:17:20Z theos: how are you this fine evening? 2015-07-18T14:17:43Z beach: Me? Oh, not too bad. Taking it easy today. It's the weekend after all. 2015-07-18T14:17:48Z beach: You? 2015-07-18T14:18:21Z theos: I am good too :) thinking about making a revolutionary CL software! 2015-07-18T14:18:34Z beach: Looking forward to it. 2015-07-18T14:20:08Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:20:09Z clique quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T14:20:12Z theos: most of what i can think of is already implemented though :S 2015-07-18T14:20:35Z digiorgi: theos: implement a functional gui library (: 2015-07-18T14:21:00Z digiorgi: theos: functional => working* 2015-07-18T14:21:13Z theos: digiorgi so there arent any? 2015-07-18T14:21:15Z Riastradh left #lisp 2015-07-18T14:21:19Z jackdaniel: there is many really good libs which lack man-hours - maybe join forces to make revolution ;) 2015-07-18T14:21:47Z zacharias quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T14:22:09Z digiorgi: theos: there are gui libraries but are terrible... 2015-07-18T14:22:30Z mc40 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T14:24:12Z theos: digiorgi maybe i didnt use them on a big enough scale to realize that :S 2015-07-18T14:24:32Z jackdaniel: digiorgi: these are strong words. have you tried each? 2015-07-18T14:25:03Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:26:00Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:26:43Z Shinmera: Arguably by the time a project reaches the size of a well usable GUI library it is bound to have become terrible. 2015-07-18T14:26:45Z jackdaniel: or you just spread fud and devaluate hard work people put in these libraries 2015-07-18T14:27:56Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:29:38Z Shinmera: Either way, the solution is to improve on existing GUI libraries or specifications, not to start from scratch, because you'd be much more likely to make another horrible mess if you did. 2015-07-18T14:30:11Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T14:30:34Z Shinmera: For example, I'd be beyond glad to have a custom layouting system for Qt implemented in lisp, because Qt's layouts are awful to work with. 2015-07-18T14:30:38Z theos: make a language for gui as an extension to CL 2015-07-18T14:30:55Z Shinmera: theos: What does that even mean 2015-07-18T14:30:57Z digiorgi: jackdaniel: sorry for that words, i mean that those libraries doesn't work well in all plataforms, or takes a C aproach that control your main thread, avoiding you to do a repl based development 2015-07-18T14:31:07Z theos: Shinmera a DSL 2015-07-18T14:31:27Z Shinmera: digiorgi: Qt works well on all platforms and you can use REPL based development with Qtools if you want to. 2015-07-18T14:31:30Z jackdaniel: there is specification for such a thing- CLIM that is, ask nyef for details 2015-07-18T14:31:35Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:31:38Z Shinmera: theos: What qualifies as a "DSL" 2015-07-18T14:31:50Z nyef: Mmm. I'm staring at part of the CLIM II spec now. 2015-07-18T14:32:01Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-18T14:32:10Z nyef: Apparently, the DEVICE-EVENT class is "instantiable". 2015-07-18T14:32:12Z dubkoidragon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T14:32:14Z Akshay quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-18T14:32:34Z Shinmera: nyef: As opposed to being an abstract super class? 2015-07-18T14:32:37Z nyef: And I'm wondering "why the heck would you create a DEVICE-EVENT and not one of its leaf subclasses"? 2015-07-18T14:33:17Z Shinmera: Depending on what kind of fields you have it might be useful to send out an event that is not associated with a particular device. 2015-07-18T14:33:17Z nyef: As opposed to a protocol class or a mixin. 2015-07-18T14:33:24Z theos: Shinmera hmm. a language instead of a lib just for gui work 2015-07-18T14:33:26Z Shinmera: But that's just a guess without any context. 2015-07-18T14:33:38Z Shinmera: theos: What is the difference between a "language" and a "lib"? 2015-07-18T14:34:09Z theos: Shinmera you use a lib with a language 2015-07-18T14:34:22Z Shinmera: theos: So? 2015-07-18T14:34:26Z jackdaniel: I think of it in terms of framework and library - library is something external you use, while framework is something you write in 2015-07-18T14:34:34Z nyef: A bare "device-event" has a timestamp, a sheet ("window"), and a modifier-state (key state for shift, meta, and the like). 2015-07-18T14:34:35Z Shinmera: Is everything a lib now because it ultimately runs assembly? 2015-07-18T14:35:03Z jackdaniel: like a hammer - which is a tool you use externally, and armor 2015-07-18T14:35:09Z jackdaniel: s/armor/armour/ (?) 2015-07-18T14:35:21Z Shinmera: nyef: Hmm. Might be used as a timer then? 2015-07-18T14:35:28Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:35:41Z nyef: And there's a way to distinguish it from its subclasses, but not easily via method specialization. 2015-07-18T14:35:48Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-18T14:35:50Z Shinmera: nyef: Though again, I concur that I'd rather have a specific subclass to instantiate for something like that, so making it able to be instantiated seems a bit bizarre to me. 2015-07-18T14:36:16Z Shinmera: Maybe there's a mechanism that works through change-class or something similar 2015-07-18T14:36:19Z nyef: A timer-event has a timestamp, but is a direct subclass of event. 2015-07-18T14:36:28Z Shinmera: So that you can start out with a general instance and then switch to a more specific one. 2015-07-18T14:37:23Z Shinmera: theos: Depending on what exactly you mean, Qtools may or may not already do what you're thinking of. http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ 2015-07-18T14:37:24Z nyef: I think that what it's trying to say is that it contains a full implementation of its protocol, not that anyone should actually make a direct instance of it. 2015-07-18T14:37:57Z Shinmera: nyef: I guess that would make sense. Though it certainly could use clarification if that is the true intent behind the message. 2015-07-18T14:37:57Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-18T14:40:25Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T14:41:00Z theos: Shinmera i see thanks. 2015-07-18T14:41:39Z digiorgi: i almost forgot http://ceramic.github.io/ 2015-07-18T14:42:35Z dubkoidragon joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:43:36Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T14:46:05Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:47:28Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-18T14:47:33Z sebbee: woah! digiorgi 2015-07-18T14:52:22Z sebbee: i cant nstall ceramic on windows 2015-07-18T14:52:24Z sebbee: not working 2015-07-18T14:52:43Z jackdaniel: windows not working? no wonder ;d 2015-07-18T14:54:02Z sebbee: oh great 2015-07-18T14:54:11Z sebbee: thats really helpful, appreciate it 2015-07-18T14:54:54Z jackdaniel is glad he could help 2015-07-18T14:55:56Z nyef: With windows, you have a bit of an uphill battle when it comes to free common lisp, as I'm sure you've noticed. 2015-07-18T14:56:39Z Shinmera: Qtools should install fine though 2015-07-18T14:56:45Z Shinmera: On the latest Quicklisp anyway. 2015-07-18T14:57:22Z sebbee: yes, I'm sorry I asked for support for windows 2015-07-18T14:57:28Z sebbee: I will go debian and keep my mouth shut 2015-07-18T14:57:57Z nyef: sebbee: The alternate approach is to say "this situation isn't good enough" and work to make it better. 2015-07-18T14:57:58Z jackdaniel: you haven't asked for support, you just concluded it doesn't work 2015-07-18T14:59:37Z p_l: people, let's not be so negative -_- 2015-07-18T15:00:02Z theos: what if there blood type is B- 2015-07-18T15:00:08Z Shinmera: A while back someone offered to test Qt-libs/Qtools on Windows 10. Is that offer still up? 2015-07-18T15:00:25Z theos: there is a win10 now? 2015-07-18T15:00:50Z Shinmera: Yes. 2015-07-18T15:00:55Z Shinmera: A preview anyway. 2015-07-18T15:01:23Z nyef: Aren't they at the point of cutting the release master build? 2015-07-18T15:01:38Z theos: oh. last i checked, kids were happy to get their new win8 pcs 2015-07-18T15:02:21Z jackdaniel: it's only two more windows to handle afterall 2015-07-18T15:02:22Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-18T15:03:14Z p_l: Shinmera: I can do some testing (it was me) 2015-07-18T15:03:25Z p_l: just will need binaries to test 2015-07-18T15:03:35Z Shinmera: p_l: Ah, cool. Just quickloading the latest qt-libs should do well enough as a test. 2015-07-18T15:03:43Z p_l: I don't have visual studio and the like installed on it 2015-07-18T15:03:45Z Shinmera: As in, the latest quicklisp version. 2015-07-18T15:04:09Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:04:34Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:04:54Z p_l: ok 2015-07-18T15:05:04Z p_l: will see, might have some time over weekend to do a test 2015-07-18T15:05:21Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:05:34Z p_l: anyway, afk for now, going shopping 2015-07-18T15:05:59Z dubkoidragon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-18T15:09:04Z kini quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-07-18T15:09:11Z yeticry quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-18T15:09:21Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-18T15:09:36Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T15:09:47Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T15:10:46Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:12:27Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T15:12:37Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T15:13:18Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-18T15:14:51Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-18T15:16:09Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:16:12Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-18T15:16:28Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:18:25Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:20:29Z kini joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:20:56Z jrm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T15:21:03Z beatz quit (Quit: beatz) 2015-07-18T15:23:22Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:23:22Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-07-18T15:23:22Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:24:20Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:25:34Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:25:59Z p_l: sebbee: btw, I welcome people trying to use open-source lisp sw on Windows - it's a sadly neglected platform in many areas. 2015-07-18T15:26:43Z sebbee: people already pointed me to debian earlierr 2015-07-18T15:26:59Z sebbee: so I guess ill just fire up my vm instead of posting windows problems 2015-07-18T15:28:01Z GLM joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:28:22Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-18T15:28:44Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:28:53Z sebbee: whats sw mean? 2015-07-18T15:29:06Z GLM quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-18T15:29:08Z p_l: software 2015-07-18T15:29:10Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T15:29:49Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:32:17Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T15:33:49Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T15:39:11Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-18T15:39:17Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:39:57Z sebbee quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-18T15:41:17Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:45:14Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:46:23Z whiteline quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-18T15:47:22Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:48:06Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:48:50Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:48:57Z whiteline quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-18T15:49:56Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T15:52:47Z abuela joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:53:35Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-18T15:56:09Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:00:34Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:01:10Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:04:33Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:05:42Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:09:14Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:21:15Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:24:56Z switchp0rt: I am new to lisp, but why can't i get the value from this hash table, but when I cons the k,v together it shows the value 2015-07-18T16:24:57Z switchp0rt: (print (gethash "token" (login *info*))) 2015-07-18T16:24:57Z switchp0rt: (maphash #'(lambda (k v) (print (cons k v))) (login *info*)) 2015-07-18T16:25:06Z switchp0rt: ("result" . "success") 2015-07-18T16:25:06Z switchp0rt: ("token" . "TEMPWt30bgZfek4JSxVzIKXAdfwk0AZv") 2015-07-18T16:28:50Z nyef: clhs make-hash-table 2015-07-18T16:28:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm 2015-07-18T16:28:58Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:29:02Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T16:29:18Z nyef: switchp0rt: Because the keys are strings, which don't compare well under EQ or EQL. 2015-07-18T16:30:13Z nyef: switchp0rt: If you make your hash table with :TEST 'EQUAL, or :TEST 'EQUALP, you should get a better result. 2015-07-18T16:30:15Z switchp0rt: nyef: specbot: thank you, that fixed it 2015-07-18T16:32:12Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:32:12Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-18T16:39:57Z jackdaniel: switchp0rt: you may also use symbols as keys, which would be better for performance perspective 2015-07-18T16:40:02Z jackdaniel: so instead of "result" use 'result 2015-07-18T16:40:20Z jackdaniel: and then eql should do 2015-07-18T16:43:22Z guthur`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T16:44:23Z luigibozzo joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:46:35Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T16:47:37Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-18T16:48:49Z jackdaniel: s/for/from/ 2015-07-18T16:49:16Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:49:50Z Guest50523 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T16:51:44Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:51:52Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T16:53:05Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:53:27Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-18T16:56:21Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-18T16:57:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: minion: botsnack 2015-07-18T16:57:08Z minion: botsnack: thanks 2015-07-18T16:57:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: I love it. 2015-07-18T16:58:04Z abuela quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T17:01:12Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:04:38Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:08:26Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:08:41Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:10:17Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-18T17:14:20Z kawaii-imouto quit (Quit: reboot) 2015-07-18T17:23:15Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:26:07Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:28:47Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-18T17:35:30Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:37:07Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T17:37:43Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-18T17:38:07Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:40:32Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:41:49Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:42:48Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:45:20Z digiorgi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T17:45:57Z clique quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T17:46:17Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-18T17:48:51Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:54:56Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:56:31Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:56:41Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:57:01Z pjb`: switchp0rt: you can do that: (defun get-key (test similar-key hash-table) (maphash (lambda (k v) (declare (ignore v)) (when (funcall test similar-key k) (return-from get-key k))) hash-table) nil) then: (gethash (get-key #'equal "token" table) table) if you happen to not have a key around, for a eql-hash-table. 2015-07-18T17:57:01Z minion: pjb`, memo from hitecnologys: oh, sorry, I was afk. Will check that out, thanks. 2015-07-18T17:57:15Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-18T17:57:31Z pgomes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T17:59:22Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:00:07Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:03:27Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:05:38Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-18T18:06:11Z clique is now known as KKT 2015-07-18T18:12:36Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:14:10Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:16:28Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for dmitigr: just as suspected, moving function declaration to external.h fixed cxx problem. You may pull repository for a fix. 2015-07-18T18:16:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dmitigr when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-18T18:17:35Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for dmitigr: thanks for reporting! :) 2015-07-18T18:17:35Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dmitigr when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-18T18:25:46Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:27:08Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:31:18Z Akshay quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T18:31:28Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-18T18:32:39Z kdas__ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:32:41Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: but why you defined si_reset_margin without @(defun for dpp? 2015-07-18T18:32:42Z minion: dmitigr, memo from jackdaniel: just as suspected, moving function declaration to external.h fixed cxx problem. You may pull repository for a fix. 2015-07-18T18:32:42Z minion: dmitigr, memo from jackdaniel: thanks for reporting! :) 2015-07-18T18:33:10Z KKT quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-18T18:33:16Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:35:22Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T18:36:51Z jackdaniel: two reasons: 1) convention kept in it's file (stacks.d), 2) not sure why defun doesn't export symbol from package when called with dpp, so it would be called si::reset-margin instead of si:reset-margin 2015-07-18T18:38:15Z jackdaniel: if I remember correctly, I did it some time ago 2015-07-18T18:38:24Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-18T18:38:31Z jackdaniel: my memory tends to mislead me sometimes :) 2015-07-18T18:38:37Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: but I believe that's correct, because you want to declare si_reset_margin in internal.h? 2015-07-18T18:38:57Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: so, it should not be exported? 2015-07-18T18:39:31Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T18:39:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:40:15Z jackdaniel: hm, it was one of many changes in road to fix stack problems, I didn't put much tought into where it should be put 2015-07-18T18:40:59Z jackdaniel: maybe you're right, on the other hand it's accessed in condition.lsp, so it is used in external packages 2015-07-18T18:41:16Z jackdaniel: conditions.lsp 2015-07-18T18:41:52Z jackdaniel: so there are arguments for keeping it external 2015-07-18T18:42:16Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: well, I've checked, that export.h included in every .c of build dir. so, thats should be the way to show the si_reset_margin's declaration to the c++ compiler in another fashion. 2015-07-18T18:42:58Z jackdaniel: wher is export.h? 2015-07-18T18:43:01Z jackdaniel: s/wher/where/ 2015-07-18T18:43:14Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: oops, external.h 2015-07-18T18:43:34Z jackdaniel: yes, I've moved it there 2015-07-18T18:43:37Z jackdaniel: pull repository 2015-07-18T18:44:02Z jackdaniel: that's exactly a thing I did :) 2015-07-18T18:45:29Z digiorgi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T18:46:17Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T18:46:23Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: of course this solves the compilation problem, because c++ compiler is happy now. but si_reset_margin are "private"? no? 2015-07-18T18:46:53Z jackdaniel: no it isn't, it's exported symbol in si, like many others 2015-07-18T18:47:25Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: why did you put in internal.h then? :) 2015-07-18T18:47:47Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T18:47:48Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: "Structures and functions that are not meant for the end user" 2015-07-18T18:47:49Z jackdaniel: I'm sure my brain can find a lot of excuses for it, but I made mistake 2015-07-18T18:47:58Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: uhhh 2015-07-18T18:48:19Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: I've hacked it several hours :) 2015-07-18T18:48:36Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: I was sure that it "private" :) 2015-07-18T18:48:41Z jackdaniel: heh, hope you had fun with it :) 2015-07-18T18:49:06Z jackdaniel: I barely understand surface of ECL codebase to be honest 2015-07-18T18:49:10Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:49:31Z jackdaniel: wouldn't even thing about taking maintainership, if it wouldn't be floating dead as someone put it 2015-07-18T18:49:32Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: and I've tryed to find a way to make c++ compiler happy by not declaring si_reset_margin in external.h :) 2015-07-18T18:50:02Z jackdaniel: it must be external when I think about it now, because it's accessed from lsp sources 2015-07-18T18:50:14Z jackdaniel: s/thing/think/ 2015-07-18T18:50:19Z Guest6344 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-18T18:50:26Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: I'm sure now that ECL's ecosystem must be documented! Or it's very painful to hack at first glance :) 2015-07-18T18:50:39Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:51:00Z jackdaniel: codebase is really nice and clean, but some documentation would be really helpful, yes 2015-07-18T18:51:49Z Guest6344 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-18T18:51:50Z jackdaniel: one of the tickets if moving documentation to ecl repository, not keep it separately 2015-07-18T18:51:56Z jackdaniel: s/if/is/ 2015-07-18T18:52:06Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:52:10Z Guest6344 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T18:52:13Z jackdaniel: and it would be easier to update it after making change "visible" to the user 2015-07-18T18:54:47Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:54:47Z pnathan|afk joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:54:59Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: but how about this call -- (si::formatter-aux *standard-output* ,control-string args) in iolib.lsp? The si_formatter_aux is defined in format.d and internal.h, but note ::, so it does'nt exported, but called from Lisp. 2015-07-18T18:56:01Z jackdaniel: I don't know 2015-07-18T18:56:02Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-18T18:56:36Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: so, I guess it's ok to call not exported functions in Lisp? 2015-07-18T18:56:46Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:57:04Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-07-18T18:57:20Z jackdaniel: as far as I'm concerned :) 2015-07-18T18:57:43Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: I meant in context of ECL sources 2015-07-18T18:57:53Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: not in Lisp et all 2015-07-18T18:57:57Z dmitigr: :) 2015-07-18T18:58:35Z redcoat joined #lisp 2015-07-18T18:58:54Z jackdaniel: yes, it's ok, but declaration must be visible 2015-07-18T18:59:51Z jackdaniel: usecase you brought shows that clearly ;) 2015-07-18T19:00:12Z lisper29 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T19:02:38Z jackdaniel: eh, it's pain to build ecl on 1ghz tablet ^_^ 2015-07-18T19:04:05Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: would'nt defining func. with @(defun make it visible in .o.c ? 2015-07-18T19:04:09Z Guest6344 is now known as BlueRavenGT 2015-07-18T19:04:32Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: without the need to declare in external.h 2015-07-18T19:05:05Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T19:05:22Z jackdaniel: it might, I'm not sure about that tough 2015-07-18T19:07:12Z jackdaniel: dpp will just transform defun, it won't create magically declaration somewhere else, will it? 2015-07-18T19:07:41Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-18T19:08:13Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: I think it should at least. At least format.d processed this way, I guess. 2015-07-18T19:08:20Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-18T19:08:54Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: so, si_formatter_aux declared in internal.h, but I'm not sure yet 2015-07-18T19:09:34Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:11:18Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:12:07Z dmitigr: have to go. good night! 2015-07-18T19:12:07Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:12:12Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T19:12:15Z jackdaniel: sleep well 2015-07-18T19:13:00Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-18T19:16:36Z dmitigr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T19:18:15Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:24:26Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:27:41Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T19:28:33Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:32:21Z rritoch quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-18T19:33:36Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:33:39Z contrapunctus quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-07-18T19:33:55Z pnathan|afk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T19:33:57Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:37:30Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:43:08Z vlnx quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-18T19:43:18Z eazar_hardwork joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:45:15Z eazar_hardwork is now known as eazar_woodhorse 2015-07-18T19:47:14Z eazar_woodhorse is now known as eazar_workhorse 2015-07-18T19:47:50Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:49:22Z totaleclipse joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:49:52Z totaleclipse: I'm trying to find more information about the (format nil "~r") directive 2015-07-18T19:50:15Z totaleclipse: this is the one that prints out "verbose" numbers like "one-hundred fifty-five" 2015-07-18T19:50:20Z Bike: clhs 22.3.2.1 2015-07-18T19:50:20Z specbot: Tilde R: Radix: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cba.htm 2015-07-18T19:50:23Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:50:27Z Bike: clhs ~r 2015-07-18T19:50:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cba.htm 2015-07-18T19:50:29Z totaleclipse: anyone know if there are other language options 2015-07-18T19:50:45Z Bike: roman numerals, i guess 2015-07-18T19:52:08Z totaleclipse: ok so english only then 2015-07-18T19:52:42Z totaleclipse: thanks for the links 2015-07-18T19:52:47Z Bike: pretty much just english, yeah. 2015-07-18T19:53:08Z ziocroc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T19:53:14Z lepardo: akkad: what did you end up settlign on for cl blog software? 2015-07-18T19:55:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T19:55:27Z akkad: lepardo: no, tried coleslaw. but it's barely more than something you could write in bash/awk to emit html, from, html... 2015-07-18T19:55:52Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T19:56:24Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T19:57:52Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-18T19:58:18Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-18T20:02:03Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-18T20:18:07Z luigibozzo left #lisp 2015-07-18T20:25:07Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-18T20:31:14Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-07-18T20:34:05Z digiorgi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T20:37:02Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-18T20:38:07Z akkad: H4ns: must util.lisp print out the damn version of lisp, the license it uses, etc? 2015-07-18T20:38:21Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-18T20:38:30Z H4ns: akkad: what are you talking about? 2015-07-18T20:39:01Z akkad: hunchentoot: Hunchentoot 1.2.34 (SBCL 1.2.13.65-645ddb6) at cfoo.com 2015-07-18T20:39:50Z H4ns: akkad: you need to provide me with more context if you want me to response in a respond in a meaningful and friendly manner. 2015-07-18T20:40:11Z H4ns: in particular as this wifi connection has substantial lag 2015-07-18T20:41:09Z akkad: H4ns: https://gist.github.com/227acf3749ddb091bec7 2015-07-18T20:42:36Z H4ns: akkad: nobody forces you to use that version string ever. 2015-07-18T20:42:40Z akkad: "this website is powered by Lispworks License akkajajl01911k1k" is not something I'd like to broadcast 2015-07-18T20:42:48Z H4ns: akkad: then don't 2015-07-18T20:42:56Z akkad: hit any hunchentoot site 404 page 2015-07-18T20:43:12Z akkad: the default is quite "the web in 1995" 2015-07-18T20:43:22Z H4ns: akkad: if you don't like it, use your own error pages. the standard error pages are rather basic. 2015-07-18T20:43:30Z H4ns: akkad: cool story bro 2015-07-18T20:44:40Z akkad: yeah, I know, security is not a lisp tradition 2015-07-18T20:45:04Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-18T20:45:06Z pjb`: You could broadcast that you used another lisp implementation? 2015-07-18T20:45:12Z Bike: akkad, he's just saying you can swap out the error page, same as any server. if you don't want some guru meditation. 2015-07-18T20:45:31Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-18T20:47:53Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-18T20:48:39Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T20:50:26Z lepardo: akkad: I would't use that for customer facing stuff. try portable allegroserve 2015-07-18T20:51:05Z H4ns: lepardo: because it has better error pages? lol. 2015-07-18T20:51:09Z akkad: well a commercial lisp includes the license key. not what I consider the best approach 2015-07-18T20:51:56Z Bike: just change the 404. you should probably do that anyway, only lazy sites keep the apache defaults 2015-07-18T20:52:51Z akkad: security is best done when it's DIY 2015-07-18T20:53:51Z jackdaniel: security is a joke, when you use defaults 2015-07-18T20:54:00Z jackdaniel: default password? root 2015-07-18T20:54:26Z psy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T20:54:29Z lepardo: akkad: your not going to get anyone here to agree with you. This crowd is in a different quadrant than the one you're in. security is not someting that really matters. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman no password. Lisp is not the best choice for those scenarios dude. 2015-07-18T20:54:47Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-18T20:55:01Z akkad: lepardo: rule of least surprise? 2015-07-18T20:55:14Z Bike: i'm not anti security because i think you should not just use a default error page, what the fuck 2015-07-18T20:55:41Z redcoat: Let's try to keep it civil. 2015-07-18T20:56:02Z Bike: it's not like i'm telling you to implement your own hash function, here. just write a web page. 2015-07-18T20:56:19Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T20:56:23Z jackdaniel: Bike: I don't understand their reasoning either ^_^ 2015-07-18T20:56:36Z jackdaniel: hm, neither* 2015-07-18T20:56:46Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-18T20:56:47Z redcoat: There's baiting, ignore it. Nothing to see here. 2015-07-18T20:56:59Z lepardo: akkad: never put hunchentoot up on my internet without significant lock down. 2015-07-18T20:57:26Z jackdaniel: fud - fud everywhere \o/ 2015-07-18T20:57:31Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T20:58:02Z akkad: yeah, no one pushes a 'default secure' posture... 2015-07-18T20:58:46Z Ober: akkad: this is lisp, not security. if you want that go to #openbsd 2015-07-18T20:59:12Z Ober: anyways hunchentoot should always be behind nginx or something else that is safe by default 2015-07-18T21:02:03Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-18T21:02:15Z synergy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-18T21:03:10Z synergy_: Are (defvar a 2) and (defparameter a 4) referred to by the same 'a? 2015-07-18T21:03:35Z Bike: they're the same variable, yes. you should use *a* though. 2015-07-18T21:04:05Z Shinmera: Don't leave those poor special variables in the cold! Give them nice earmuffs. 2015-07-18T21:04:29Z synergy_: Oh, yea. Forgot. This was just for example though 2015-07-18T21:05:49Z Bike: the difference is just that *a*'s value will only be set if it's not set already, for the defvar case. 2015-07-18T21:06:20Z synergy_: So defparameter even redefines variables defined with defvar? 2015-07-18T21:06:30Z Bike: it does. 2015-07-18T21:06:42Z synergy_: Ok, thank you 2015-07-18T21:06:57Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T21:08:33Z abuela joined #lisp 2015-07-18T21:08:38Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-18T21:10:22Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-18T21:12:30Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-07-18T21:13:40Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-18T21:16:06Z synergy_: What's the best way to make variables bound to the function they're assigned in? Doing something like (defun foo () (setf x 10)) makes x a global variable if called outside of any other function's scope. 2015-07-18T21:16:18Z Bike: just use let. 2015-07-18T21:16:24Z Bike: lexical binding, a godsend. 2015-07-18T21:16:32Z remi`bd: :D 2015-07-18T21:16:57Z |3b|: (setf x 10) doesn't make x a global variable, its behavior is undefined 2015-07-18T21:17:29Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T21:17:36Z |3b|: regardless of where it is called 2015-07-18T21:18:09Z synergy_: Its behavior is undefined? Could you elaborate? 2015-07-18T21:18:15Z |3b|: (unless X is already defined a a variable in an enclosing scope, or if it is globally defined special) 2015-07-18T21:18:20Z |3b|: setf doesn't create variables 2015-07-18T21:18:29Z |3b|: using it on undefined variables is undefined behavior 2015-07-18T21:18:34Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T21:18:45Z pjb`: check your compiler it may contain: (if (undefined-variable-p var) (launch-icbm (find-approximative-location *programmer*))) 2015-07-18T21:18:45Z vap1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-18T21:19:03Z synergy_: What is undefined behavior? 2015-07-18T21:19:06Z |3b|: man CL implementations will try to do something "useful" with it, but not all implementations pick the same "useful" thing 2015-07-18T21:19:10Z |3b|: *many 2015-07-18T21:19:18Z pjb`: synergy_: the implementation may do whatever it likes. 2015-07-18T21:19:23Z synergy_: Ah 2015-07-18T21:20:11Z |3b|: "undefined behavior" is behavior not defined by the specification. could mean something useful, could mean delete your hard drive, could be either depending on random internal details of the implementation 2015-07-18T21:20:33Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-18T21:20:56Z pjb`: synergy_: like launching a missile at you, sending a bug in the cern LHC so that an anti-god's particle is generated and the universe collapses, defining a special variable, defining a lexical variable, choosing at random, erasing your hard disk, whatever. 2015-07-18T21:21:02Z |3b|: so even if it seems predictable in your implementation of choice, don't rely on it unless they specifically document that they define specific behavior, and even then remember your code is unportable 2015-07-18T21:21:42Z synergy_: So anything that causes undefined behavior should be avoided unless you know what you're doing 2015-07-18T21:21:53Z |3b|: no, it should be avoided in either case 2015-07-18T21:21:58Z pjb`: No, even if you know what you are doing! 2015-07-18T21:22:04Z pjb`: Because the implementation is not a constant! 2015-07-18T21:22:11Z pjb`: It may be upgraded, it may be changed. 2015-07-18T21:22:12Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T21:22:15Z Bike: ICBM is maybe a slightly bad example since that implies the implementation does sort of define it 2015-07-18T21:22:19Z |3b|: if it is defined in a specific implementation, you might consider it, but even then i'd avoid it 2015-07-18T21:22:21Z Bike: Worse, UB can mean it's unpredictable 2015-07-18T21:22:31Z pjb`: It may be random. 2015-07-18T21:22:34Z Bike: one time it segfaults, one time it works for three weeks with no problems 2015-07-18T21:22:40Z synergy_: Oh I see 2015-07-18T21:22:53Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T21:23:07Z Bike: and then you have to debug it and you feel very sad and angry at the whole concept of technological progress. 2015-07-18T21:23:08Z pjb`: Eg. it might work in your development environment and crash in production, or worse, produce invalid results. 2015-07-18T21:24:09Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-07-18T21:24:15Z synergy_: Can a lisp file compiled on one computer be run on another? 2015-07-18T21:24:23Z pjb`: Not easily. 2015-07-18T21:24:31Z synergy_: Why is that? 2015-07-18T21:24:41Z |3b|: depends on the computers and what you mean by "a lisp file compiled ..." 2015-07-18T21:24:46Z pjb`: fasl files depends on the implementation (version, target, etc). There's little chance it may work on another system. 2015-07-18T21:24:56Z pjb`: But saved executuable image might work. 2015-07-18T21:25:05Z pjb`: If you have the same system on both. 2015-07-18T21:25:31Z |3b|: executables probably run on similar OS, .fasl files might run on any OS, or might require the exact same version of the lisp implementation on same arch/OS 2015-07-18T21:25:45Z |3b|: *similar OS and arch for executables 2015-07-18T21:26:23Z pjb`: Better distribute the sources and compile them while installing the system on the target computer. 2015-07-18T21:26:32Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-18T21:26:36Z synergy_: That hinders portability a lot I'm guessing. What's the reasoning in having compilers work like that? 2015-07-18T21:26:45Z |3b|: shared library versions are a common cause of problems between linux versions for example, or you might need to ship them with windows executables 2015-07-18T21:27:05Z Bike: synergy_: nah, we just distribute source instead 2015-07-18T21:27:12Z |3b|: not that different from c++ 2015-07-18T21:27:21Z Bike: the reasoning is mainly just that it's easy and simple for implementations 2015-07-18T21:27:23Z synergy_: synergy_: That's what I was thinking would make sense 2015-07-18T21:27:36Z |3b|: can't run x86 c++ binaries on arm, can't mix object files between c++ compilers even on same platform 2015-07-18T21:27:37Z synergy_: Bike:* 2015-07-18T21:28:05Z pjb`: That said, that doesn't prevent you to define an ABI (or a virtual ABI), to provide portability (even cross-implementations!) from one platform to another. 2015-07-18T21:28:32Z pjb`: You could even provide that in an implementation independent way (with a library, providing your own compiler). 2015-07-18T21:28:56Z synergy_: Wow, that's interesting 2015-07-18T21:28:58Z pjb`: I guess that ABCL just does that, generated jar containing .class containing JVM code. 2015-07-18T21:29:21Z pjb`: and given that the JVM part is already implemented by Oracle for all target platforms. 2015-07-18T21:29:33Z pjb`: s/generated/generating/ 2015-07-18T21:30:16Z synergy_: But then how would the ABI stay machine/implementation independent 2015-07-18T21:30:27Z pjb`: By controlling it. 2015-07-18T21:30:50Z synergy_: What do you mean? 2015-07-18T21:30:51Z pjb`: You would distribute a (source) library to read that ABI and convert it into local lisp. 2015-07-18T21:32:13Z digiorgi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-18T21:33:04Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-18T21:33:10Z synergy_: Ok. I guess that would make sense because distributing source is way more portable than distributing the compiled code 2015-07-18T21:34:18Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-18T21:34:41Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T21:35:01Z pjb`: You would distribute some kind of compiled code and a source library that would read that code, and transform it into a lisp form, to compile it with CL:COMPILE in the target implementation. 2015-07-18T21:35:56Z pjb`: The problem occurs when you want to compile things that are not in the CL package. 2015-07-18T21:36:02Z pjb`: CFFI, sockets, threads, etc. 2015-07-18T21:36:25Z pjb`: If you define that in your ABI, then your library needs to include support for that for all the target implementations. 2015-07-18T21:36:30Z redcoat: But then at that point you don't even have API compatiblity, so worrying about ABI compability is the least of your problems. 2015-07-18T21:36:47Z pjb`: You may want to provide it. 2015-07-18T21:36:52Z redcoat: You probably would. 2015-07-18T21:36:58Z pjb`: The jvm has thread instructions. 2015-07-18T21:37:06Z redcoat: You're right, it does. 2015-07-18T21:43:52Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T21:47:19Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-18T21:47:50Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-18T21:48:10Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T21:49:48Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-18T21:51:33Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-18T21:52:41Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-18T21:52:46Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-18T21:55:06Z mc40 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T21:56:04Z eazar_workhorse quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-18T21:56:28Z abuela: I'm looking at some code in LoL and it says something like (the fixnum acc) 2015-07-18T21:56:38Z abuela: is that some kind of optimization macro? 2015-07-18T21:56:55Z Shinmera: clhs the 2015-07-18T21:56:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm 2015-07-18T21:57:24Z abuela: thanks 2015-07-18T21:58:51Z abuela: I really should start checking the hyperspec more often 2015-07-18T21:58:55Z torpig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-18T22:00:24Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-18T22:01:36Z pjb`: abuela: yes, that optimizes bugs. 2015-07-18T22:01:52Z pjb`: abuela: that removes any safety and typecheck about the variable acc. 2015-07-18T22:07:22Z jwo joined #lisp 2015-07-18T22:08:01Z williamyao quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T22:08:16Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T22:13:03Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-18T22:13:07Z Chippie00 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T22:14:03Z Chippie00 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-18T22:16:48Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T22:18:48Z Chippie00 joined #lisp 2015-07-18T22:21:27Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-18T22:24:45Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-18T22:27:16Z loz1: any recommendations/critics on different lisps which are compiled to js? 2015-07-18T22:29:27Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-07-18T22:30:11Z abuela quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-18T22:31:50Z torpig joined #lisp 2015-07-18T22:36:37Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-07-18T22:36:41Z JuanDaugherty: there's more than 1 huh 2015-07-18T22:38:13Z |3b|: the #lisp answer is probably parenscript, or "just use js" 2015-07-18T22:38:33Z Shinmera: Just use js. 2015-07-18T22:38:54Z Shinmera: Or wait until WASM is a thing and we have a backend for that (probably a couple of years). 2015-07-18T22:38:59Z loz1: i just see a lots of different lispy scripts 2015-07-18T22:39:30Z loz1: Shinmera: who wants to use js, really 2015-07-18T22:39:35Z |3b|: most of the others are either toys, or sufficiently non-CL to be off topic here 2015-07-18T22:39:50Z Shinmera: loz1: I don't, but I prefer it over even more kludges. 2015-07-18T22:40:21Z |3b|: acheron is the only attempt at actual CL for JS i know of, but i haven't heard of anyone actually using it 2015-07-18T22:40:42Z loz1: btw, what do you think about shen? 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2015-07-19T00:50:43Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-19T00:51:34Z eazar_magic_pwny joined #lisp 2015-07-19T00:55:11Z eazar_magic_pwny is now known as modus_pwnens001 2015-07-19T00:55:14Z |3b|: synergy_: it doesn't? (or alternately, what exact code did you try?) 2015-07-19T00:55:53Z synergy_: (append '() 3) return 3 instead of (3) 2015-07-19T00:56:03Z |3b|: clhs append 2015-07-19T00:56:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm 2015-07-19T00:57:15Z |3b|: that's what it is specified to do 2015-07-19T00:57:29Z modus_pwnens001 is now known as eazar_woodhorse 2015-07-19T00:57:42Z |3b|: note that (append (list 1) 3) is (1 . 3), not (1 3) 2015-07-19T00:59:04Z synergy_: Ok, I see what I did 2015-07-19T00:59:13Z |3b|: (if it isn't clear, (1 . 3) is the result of (cons 1 3), while (1 3) is the result of (list 1 3), which is (cons 1 (cons 3 nil)) ) 2015-07-19T00:59:18Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-19T00:59:35Z synergy_: To get the desired effect, I would do (append '() '(3)) 2015-07-19T00:59:40Z |3b|: right 2015-07-19T00:59:44Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:00:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T01:01:21Z |3b|: usually one tries to avoid APPENDing single elements, since it has to go through every element in the first list(s) each time, and instead do something like (push 3 list) to add 3 to the beginning of list. if order matters you can reverse it at the end 2015-07-19T01:01:49Z zeitue quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-19T01:01:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:01:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-19T01:01:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:02:31Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:04:42Z nyef: Or you could use the old (setf (car list-head) (setf (cdar list-head) (cons new-element nil))) trick. All you have to do is create LIST-HEAD as a CONS with a CAR pointing to itself. 2015-07-19T01:05:20Z nyef: Storage overhead: One CONS cell. 2015-07-19T01:06:04Z synergy_: What are the biggest differences in CONS chains that terminate in nil versus those that don't? 2015-07-19T01:06:37Z nyef: Propriety. 2015-07-19T01:06:57Z nyef: If the last CONS has a CDR of NIL, then it is a "proper" list. 2015-07-19T01:07:19Z |3b|: some functions only work correctly on proper lists 2015-07-19T01:07:44Z synergy_: When's it useful to have non-nil terminating cons chains? 2015-07-19T01:07:53Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T01:07:53Z redcoat quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T01:08:01Z |3b|: circular lists can be useful 2015-07-19T01:08:03Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:08:18Z pjb`: Notice that using push and nreverse is as efficient as using the head/tail trick. 2015-07-19T01:08:32Z |3b|: or you can have a tree instead of a list 2015-07-19T01:08:45Z pjb`: (as long as you don't blow off the cache/pagination/swap limits. 2015-07-19T01:08:46Z pjb`: ) 2015-07-19T01:09:13Z synergy_: |3b|: Oh, that's a good point 2015-07-19T01:09:23Z pjb`: Notice also that loop :append and :collect hide this implementation detail. 2015-07-19T01:10:11Z nyef: The advantage to the CONS trick, and it may not be much of one, is that you can grab and use the accumulated list at any time, then go back to accumulating more items. 2015-07-19T01:11:10Z nyef: With LOOP, you're stuck with operating in the context of a single function, and can't access the accumulated list until it's done. 2015-07-19T01:11:26Z eazar_woodhorse is now known as helenofwoodhorse 2015-07-19T01:11:33Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:11:52Z nyef: With NREVERSE, you have to pay the reversal multiple times if you want to use the list in forward order and then go back to accumulating items. 2015-07-19T01:11:58Z |3b|: you can access the partial list in LOOP if you name it 2015-07-19T01:12:11Z nyef: Really? Okay, that's cool. 2015-07-19T01:12:27Z nyef: Still has the control-flow limitation, though. 2015-07-19T01:12:32Z |3b|: yeaj 2015-07-19T01:12:48Z nyef: So, tradeoffs. Tradeoffs everywhere. 2015-07-19T01:15:02Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:15:56Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:18:16Z jrm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T01:18:23Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:18:52Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-07-19T01:18:52Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:19:03Z akersof quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T01:19:12Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:19:58Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T01:21:53Z mach joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:26:12Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:26:17Z williamyao quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T01:29:22Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T01:31:04Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:31:39Z redcoat joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:32:54Z badkins quit 2015-07-19T01:33:26Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:35:57Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-19T01:41:24Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:42:30Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:47:29Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T01:48:42Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T01:49:20Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-19T01:49:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T01:51:42Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T01:52:59Z pjb`: I can't wait the day sbcl determines the universe is finite, and completes all its compilations by only a single warning: "note: deleting unreachable code" without producing any code. 2015-07-19T01:54:32Z nyef: pjb`: Right now, wouldn't that already apply to most of sourceforge? 2015-07-19T01:56:21Z pjb`: It's frightnening. 2015-07-19T01:56:39Z pjb`: That's why I keep my own repositories on git.informatimago.com 2015-07-19T01:57:56Z walter|r_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T02:04:16Z nyef: Mmm. On the one hand, having to deal with your own security and backups. On the other hand, it's a much smaller target, and your infrastructure is sufficiently modest that, if necessary, you can have everything back up again fairly quickly, right? 2015-07-19T02:06:00Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:07:18Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T02:09:18Z johs quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-19T02:09:23Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T02:09:56Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:10:10Z johs joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:10:15Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:10:43Z Lycurgus left #lisp 2015-07-19T02:12:37Z xificurC quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T02:13:12Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:13:33Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T02:14:09Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:14:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-19T02:17:15Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T02:18:20Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:19:54Z synergy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T02:21:58Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:23:01Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:25:16Z totaleclipse quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-19T02:27:04Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:28:12Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T02:28:47Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:29:30Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-19T02:30:31Z walter|r_ joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:31:02Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:31:12Z walter|r_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T02:33:38Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T02:35:44Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:38:04Z rritoch quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-19T02:38:12Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:38:26Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:41:30Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-19T02:46:08Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-19T02:56:03Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-19T02:59:15Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T03:05:53Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-19T03:06:11Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-19T03:12:23Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-19T03:16:48Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-19T03:18:06Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-19T03:20:05Z Chippie00 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T03:24:50Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-19T03:25:18Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-19T03:29:10Z Rptx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T03:34:41Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-19T03:34:59Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-19T03:36:22Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T03:37:07Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-19T03:37:28Z bertro quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-19T03:56:55Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-19T04:03:50Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-19T04:16:48Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-19T04:19:50Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-19T04:24:09Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T04:34:07Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-19T04:36:31Z guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-19T04:38:28Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-19T04:38:35Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-19T04:40:10Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T04:40:57Z jrm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T04:41:32Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-19T04:41:32Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-07-19T04:41:32Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-19T04:41:38Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-19T04:46:01Z nyef: beach: I found another "fun" aspect of the CLIM II spec. PROCESS-NEXT-EVENT is required to call DISTRIBUTE-EVENT to figure out where an event needs to go before forming up the EVENT object, but DISTRIBUTE-EVENT takes an EVENT as an argument. 2015-07-19T04:46:28Z beach: Oh, nice! :) 2015-07-19T04:46:34Z nyef: There's also a mention of non-SHEET event clients, but nowhere in the spec is such a client defined. 2015-07-19T04:46:59Z beach: It vaguely comes back. 2015-07-19T04:47:17Z guthur` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T04:48:06Z beach: I also remember having no clue what those functions do, i.e., PROCESS-NEXT-EVENT, etc., and it required already knowing what a typical backend system such as X11 does in similar situations. 2015-07-19T04:48:50Z nyef: Yes, I've long known that this part of the spec is less than excellent. 2015-07-19T04:49:58Z beach: Can I please ask you to write an annotation when you find stuff like that? Unless there is already one, of course? 2015-07-19T04:50:42Z nyef: Oh, right. 2015-07-19T04:51:10Z nyef: I think that this goes back to the whole "working from a local copy of the spec" thing. 2015-07-19T04:51:28Z beach: I see. 2015-07-19T04:51:35Z jrm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T04:51:57Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-19T04:51:57Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-07-19T04:51:57Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-19T04:52:31Z nyef: At any rate, before I get much further with events, I think I need to dig into how CLX event handling works in a multi-threaded scenario. 2015-07-19T04:55:01Z beach: As I understand it, a typical CLIM II implementation has a single thread that handles events coming from the display server. 2015-07-19T04:58:57Z nyef: Except for the uni-thread case, right? 2015-07-19T04:59:21Z nyef: And do you remember the discussion about event handling in DUIM? 2015-07-19T04:59:41Z beach: I am afraid not. 2015-07-19T04:59:43Z beach: :( 2015-07-19T05:00:20Z nyef: All sheets for a given frame share an event queue, and there's no actual "port message-handling thread". Which makes sense: That's what the X server is for! 2015-07-19T05:00:38Z beach: Yes, I remember that. 2015-07-19T05:01:00Z beach: ... sort of. 2015-07-19T05:01:18Z nyef: CLIM is partly defined in terms of LispM UI, where they didn't have a separate display server, it was all in one image. 2015-07-19T05:01:20Z beach: I remember that the sheets share an event queue. 2015-07-19T05:01:34Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-19T05:02:41Z beach: But I also understood that if there are several threads, as in several applications in the same Common Lisp process, then there is a single thread communicating with the X11 server. 2015-07-19T05:03:05Z beach: What this thread does is to enqueue events on the per-thread event queues. 2015-07-19T05:06:11Z beach: I guess I don't understand what you are concerned about with respect to "how CLX event handling works in a multi-threaded scenario". 2015-07-19T05:06:11Z nyef: I'm not in the least bit convinced that such a thread is necessary or desirable. 2015-07-19T05:06:28Z beach: Oh, OK. Then I understand a bit more. 2015-07-19T05:06:56Z nyef: And then there's the matter of threads issuing X requests that require a response. 2015-07-19T05:07:19Z nyef: You're either marshaling those over to the port thread, or you're still dealing with the contention issue. 2015-07-19T05:08:25Z beach: Yes, I see. 2015-07-19T05:12:41Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T05:13:32Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-07-19T05:14:01Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T05:14:08Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2015-07-19T05:14:08Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-07-19T05:14:45Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-19T05:31:50Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T05:32:40Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-19T05:35:33Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-19T05:47:16Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-19T05:55:54Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T06:00:05Z aeth: oh look clisp's website is sort of up now. http://clisp.org/ 2015-07-19T06:00:33Z aeth: html that's not being detected by my browser as HTML :-p 2015-07-19T06:01:22Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-19T06:01:48Z aeth: I spoke too soon. It's just a sourceforge "temporarily offline" warning 2015-07-19T06:03:21Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-19T06:05:00Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-19T06:06:06Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-19T06:06:27Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T06:09:18Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-19T06:13:25Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T06:14:37Z BlueRavenGT quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T06:16:04Z helenofwoodhorse quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-19T06:18:46Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-19T06:24:46Z Akshay quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-19T06:34:27Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-19T06:34:49Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T06:35:03Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-19T06:37:58Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-19T06:47:40Z redcoat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T06:49:51Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-19T06:49:53Z meiji11 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T06:50:05Z pranavrc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T06:50:30Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-19T06:53:12Z pyx joined #lisp 2015-07-19T06:53:41Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-19T06:59:50Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T07:06:29Z beach: Bad news: I am rewriting the SICL bootstrapping code yet again. This is probably the 5th or 6th time. Good news: Each time I rewrite it, it becomes more understandable and therefore more maintainable. It is good I don't write this code in the context of a commercial programming project, because I would then not have been allowed to rewrite it. 2015-07-19T07:07:11Z Shinmera: Or even in a project that people are already supposed to use. 2015-07-19T07:08:44Z Shinmera: I don't think drmeister would be very happy if you suddenly decided to rewrite the interface to Cleavir from scratch :) 2015-07-19T07:08:53Z beach: Right. I feel very sorry for drmeister, for instance. He announced the project and got people very excited about it, but now he has a lot of pressure on him to fix problems and improve performance. I could not have done what he is doing. But at the same time, I am impressed that he can keep it up. 2015-07-19T07:08:56Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T07:09:38Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-19T07:10:07Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T07:10:09Z beach: Yeah, that's a problem too. He decided he wanted to use it before I made a formal announcement that it is done. I might actually have to make changes in the future, but I will definitely do that in collaboration with drmeister so that there won't be too much trouble. 2015-07-19T07:10:46Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-19T07:11:42Z beach: The advantage of the bootstrapping code, as opposed to Cleavir, is that it does not (or should not) affect any client code. It is entirely internal to SICL. 2015-07-19T07:11:47Z Shinmera: That's actually a problem I have with the current Quicklisp model: There's no real way for me to know how many people are using my projects and in what way they're using it, nor is there a good way for me to communicate potential breaking changes or things like that. 2015-07-19T07:12:06Z beach: Yes, good point. 2015-07-19T07:12:28Z beach: Maybe you should ask people to "register" as users. 2015-07-19T07:12:54Z Shinmera: That would be too much of a bother. 2015-07-19T07:13:04Z schjetne: Maybe adopting the semver system would be useful 2015-07-19T07:13:34Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-07-19T07:14:12Z schjetne: As far as I can tell ASDF only lets you specify one particular version string 2015-07-19T07:14:23Z Shinmera: That might help with telling people that there have been breaking changes, but it doesn't fix the problem of me not knowing what people actually use, which parts they care about, etc. 2015-07-19T07:14:28Z Shinmera: Yes. 2015-07-19T07:15:28Z schjetne: Quicklisp statistics might show which version people are using. Though in my experience with JavaScript projects we just set a version and never touch anything unless absolutely necessary. 2015-07-19T07:16:06Z Shinmera: The stats aren't query-able at this point in time though. 2015-07-19T07:16:16Z Shinmera: And they're skewed by people who just download everything. 2015-07-19T07:16:29Z Shinmera: As well as automated tests and such. 2015-07-19T07:17:04Z schjetne: Or just look directly at the ASD of projects that use the scheme 2015-07-19T07:17:07Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T07:18:02Z schjetne: Not sure what it would take to add the capability to either ASDF or Quicklisp 2015-07-19T07:18:23Z Shinmera: The capability for what? 2015-07-19T07:18:24Z schjetne: This is the sort of thing I'm thinking of: https://www.npmjs.com/package/semver 2015-07-19T07:19:16Z schjetne: But it requires that the software you use stick to Semver and avoid doing things like breaking the API on a minor version. 2015-07-19T07:19:21Z Shinmera: ASDF doesn't enforce anything on the version field and only does equality tests. 2015-07-19T07:19:38Z schjetne: http://semver.org/ 2015-07-19T07:19:50Z Shinmera: And from what I remember of a prior discussion, Xach is not interested in adding an enforcement for version strings, since QL does its own versioning. 2015-07-19T07:22:11Z schjetne: Yes, the QL model seems to mesh better with most Lisp software 2015-07-19T07:22:39Z Shinmera: Either way, my core issue lies in the lack of a good communication channel between user and provider. Version strings are only tangential to that. 2015-07-19T07:23:38Z H4ns: If there are users who are interested, why would it not be possible to get them to subscribe to a mailing list in order to get a discussion going? 2015-07-19T07:24:01Z schjetne: I subscribe to a few Github projects that I'm usign for that reason 2015-07-19T07:24:31Z H4ns: In my experience, users usually respond relatively quickly if upstream changes affect them. It is just important to provide a clear communications channel. 2015-07-19T07:24:40Z Shinmera: Right. 2015-07-19T07:24:42Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T07:24:52Z H4ns: (i.e. mailing list, github issues etc.) 2015-07-19T07:26:29Z Shinmera: I'm once again reminded of a project I wanted to start: Something that parses recent github history and changelog files or similar to provide a simple interface for people to see what changed from one quicklisp version to the next. 2015-07-19T07:27:21Z PuercoPop: semver 'enforcement' could be done as an ASDF extension if desired 2015-07-19T07:27:34Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: an extension can't really enforce anything 2015-07-19T07:28:18Z PuercoPop: it can in 2015-07-19T07:28:40Z PuercoPop: *it can't onto others 2015-07-19T07:29:09Z Shinmera: The entire point of enforcing it would be to have everyone adhere to a scheme. An extension can't enforce that by nature of being optional. 2015-07-19T07:29:09Z schjetne: It can assert that the version of the dependency is the one you want, but it doesn't know where to find the correct version, and neither does Quicklisp. 2015-07-19T07:30:00Z drmeister: Hello 2015-07-19T07:30:13Z drmeister: beach: What interface? 2015-07-19T07:32:10Z PuercoPop: but I don't see which keeping a package.json or similar to be read on the lisp rc file and then use and around method on load-op to error or find the right version. 2015-07-19T07:32:11Z schjetne: You could do your own dependency fetching, but it would just be obnoxious to put something like that on Quicklisp. 2015-07-19T07:32:30Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T07:33:01Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T07:33:25Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-19T07:33:33Z drmeister: Oh phew, I read what you said again. I appreciate what you say. 2015-07-19T07:34:08Z drmeister: The LLVM project moves pretty quickly as well and I have to keep up with them. 2015-07-19T07:35:49Z beach: drmeister: Hello. 2015-07-19T07:35:59Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-19T07:36:18Z drmeister: Howdy. I'm in a new place, I'm on a ridiculous little peninsula called "Point Roberts". 2015-07-19T07:36:36Z beach: Vacation? 2015-07-19T07:38:19Z drmeister: It's a little peninsula that juts off of the west coast of Canada and crosses the 49th parallel and so it is in the United States. But you can only get here via Canada by land or by ferry. 2015-07-19T07:38:21Z beach: Oh, is the southern tip of it in the USA and the rest in Candada? 2015-07-19T07:38:32Z beach: Canada 2015-07-19T07:38:33Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-07-19T07:38:51Z drmeister: It's peaceful though and I can see so many stars. 2015-07-19T07:39:08Z drmeister: We are visiting with friends for a few days. 2015-07-19T07:39:19Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-19T07:39:37Z sebbee joined #lisp 2015-07-19T07:39:54Z drmeister: cclasp is about to finish compiling - then I can test my exception handling fix. 2015-07-19T07:40:15Z beach: Great! 2015-07-19T07:41:37Z drmeister: I followed your advice and randomly Control-C'd my code and looked around. It spends a lot of time in dynamic_cast and accessing the lexical environment. 2015-07-19T07:42:06Z beach: That's what I thought. 2015-07-19T07:43:03Z beach: To me it looks like that's ALL it is doing. 2015-07-19T07:45:41Z drmeister: So I'm doing some timing experiments with explicit definitions on dynamic_cast 2015-07-19T07:47:17Z beach: Stupid question: Why is dynamic cast using string comparison? 2015-07-19T07:48:16Z faheem_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-19T07:48:20Z drmeister: I don't know. I thought on Unix dynamic_cast used pointer comparisons. 2015-07-19T07:48:33Z drmeister: And on Windows it used string comparisons. 2015-07-19T07:51:57Z beach: drmeister: I have only vague knowledge of C++. Can you explain in a phrase or two the purpose of dynamic cast, and why it is used in this context? 2015-07-19T07:52:37Z beach: drmeister: I mean, in this context, aside from checking the type, should it not be a NOP? 2015-07-19T07:53:17Z beach: drmeister: Is that the one that is needed in order to descend in the type hierarchy? 2015-07-19T07:55:05Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-19T07:55:10Z drmeister: I use it to cast pointers down the type hierarchy. If the cast isn't allowed it returns NULL. 2015-07-19T07:55:32Z Shinmera: beach: Maybe http://stackoverflow.com/questions/28002/regular-cast-vs-static-cast-vs-dynamic-cast helps a bit 2015-07-19T07:55:58Z beach: Shinmera: Thanks! 2015-07-19T07:56:32Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-19T07:56:49Z beach: For a language with a reputation to be ultra fast, it seems like using string comparison to check the type of an object would be really dumb. 2015-07-19T07:57:01Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-19T07:57:39Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T07:59:46Z beach: drmeister: Why don't you do something like introduce a C++ method `cons_p' that returns true for CONSes and false for everything else. Then you can use static cast instead. 2015-07-19T08:00:49Z beach: drmeister: That's a standard trick in CLOS as well because generic-function dispatch is often faster than searching the class precedence list. 2015-07-19T08:02:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:03:43Z drmeister: That's how I'm speeding up the dynamic_casts that I'm doing most often. I'm doing a timing test at the moment to compare dynamic_cast<Environment_O*>(ptr) to ptr->environmentp() 2015-07-19T08:04:31Z beach: I am very interested in the result. 2015-07-19T08:04:51Z sebbee quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T08:04:52Z theos: morning beach 2015-07-19T08:05:19Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:06:03Z beach: Hey theos. 2015-07-19T08:09:27Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-07-19T08:10:19Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:10:34Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:11:58Z beach: The more I think about it, the more it seems like a really stupid thing to do to use string comparison for checking the type of an object. Why don't they introduce something similar to the class precedence list. Hell, since everything is static, it can be computed at compile time, or at least at link time. Much easier than what CLOS has to do. 2015-07-19T08:13:00Z beach: Maybe this is additional evidence for my standard phrase: "it is impossible to write a C++ program that is both fast and maintainable". 2015-07-19T08:14:34Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T08:16:39Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:21:27Z beach: Now, the main question remains, of course: Why do so many people in the software industry still believe it is possible? 2015-07-19T08:22:25Z beach: Sorry about the rant. I'll stop now. 2015-07-19T08:22:26Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-19T08:23:58Z Shinmera: It seems like people can just become infatuated with C++ for some reason. It happened to a friend of mine and I don't know why. 2015-07-19T08:25:40Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:25:50Z beach: That this can happen to people with no formal training and no budget responsibility may have an explanation, but I can't understand why it happens in a professional setting. 2015-07-19T08:26:15Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-07-19T08:26:25Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:26:40Z Shinmera: My point is more that personal preferences are highly influencing and people will often do whatever they can to get that preference satisfied. 2015-07-19T08:26:45Z Shinmera: So it spills over into the workplace. 2015-07-19T08:28:00Z beach: I guess so. 2015-07-19T08:28:56Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:29:39Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-19T08:32:22Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:39:16Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:42:29Z Akshay_ joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:43:58Z Akshay quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T08:50:42Z faheem_ joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:51:02Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:51:13Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-19T08:52:02Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-19T08:54:55Z drmeister: Slime works with cclasp now. I can exit from sldb and it doesn't crash 2015-07-19T08:58:34Z beach: Great! 2015-07-19T08:58:50Z beach: Is that the problem that stassats talked about? 2015-07-19T09:01:17Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-19T09:04:04Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-07-19T09:04:31Z beach: What next? Sleep I guess. Then what? 2015-07-19T09:04:50Z dubkoidragon joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:04:59Z drmeister: I've got to get back to the chemistry code and get ready for the Google talk. 2015-07-19T09:05:40Z beach: Oh. When is the talk again? 2015-07-19T09:05:46Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-19T09:06:47Z drmeister: Cleavir+Clasp is only 4x slower than C code with inlining. With type inference and a that one T/NIL optimization it will be even faster. That's the proof-of-concept I was looking for to be able to say that cclasp will be a performant compiler. 2015-07-19T09:06:51Z drmeister: Aug 4. 2015-07-19T09:06:53Z drmeister: Not long. 2015-07-19T09:07:14Z drmeister: I've lost a week to this exception handling bug. 2015-07-19T09:08:33Z beach: Right. 2015-07-19T09:08:53Z dmitigr joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:09:03Z beach: The 4x is for fixnum arithmetic? 2015-07-19T09:09:17Z beach: Or is it more general? 2015-07-19T09:11:38Z drmeister: The 4x is for fixnum arithmetic. 2015-07-19T09:12:04Z drmeister: But with more inlining it will speed up other things. 2015-07-19T09:12:27Z beach: Can bclasp do inlining? 2015-07-19T09:12:38Z drmeister: llvm inlining. 2015-07-19T09:12:50Z beach: Ah, but not at the Common Lisp level? 2015-07-19T09:12:54Z drmeister: Right 2015-07-19T09:13:15Z jrm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T09:14:08Z drmeister: I'm going to get some sleep. 2015-07-19T09:14:17Z drmeister: I'll talk to you later. 2015-07-19T09:14:22Z beach: OK. 2015-07-19T09:16:52Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:21:21Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:21:21Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-07-19T09:21:21Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:25:21Z yeticry quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-19T09:27:04Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:27:51Z fantazo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T09:29:09Z bertro joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:30:18Z dvb_ua quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-07-19T09:31:57Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:34:19Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:34:32Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-19T09:35:14Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-19T09:40:14Z jackdaniel: hello all (: 2015-07-19T09:41:18Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. 2015-07-19T09:42:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:43:17Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T09:44:44Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:45:13Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:45:14Z jackdaniel: ccl init file is .cclrc? 2015-07-19T09:45:31Z Shinmera: .ccl-init.lisp 2015-07-19T09:45:36Z jackdaniel: thanks 2015-07-19T09:51:48Z jackdaniel: hm, asdf doesn't seem to be much of backward compatible 2015-07-19T09:52:05Z sbe joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:52:12Z sbe: hi how do I hide the top window in emacs 2015-07-19T09:52:20Z jackdaniel: top window? 2015-07-19T09:52:21Z sbe: file, edit and those pesky icons 2015-07-19T09:52:58Z beach: (menu-bar-mode 0) (tool-bar-mode 0) 2015-07-19T09:52:58Z jackdaniel: oh, M-x menu-bar-mode 2015-07-19T09:53:07Z jackdaniel: ↑ 2015-07-19T09:53:08Z beach: ... in .emacs 2015-07-19T09:54:44Z sbe: tyvm 2015-07-19T09:55:09Z sbe: im on eeepc which is a bit limited with screen space :P 2015-07-19T09:55:58Z jackdaniel: consider changing default font size if you use X client 2015-07-19T09:56:00Z beach: sbe: While you are at it, do M-x define-global-abbrev<RET>tyvm<RET>thank you very much<RET> 2015-07-19T09:57:28Z dmitigr: beach: it's possible to write maintainable code of C++ which is fast (e.g. Node.js runtime) 2015-07-19T09:57:36Z jackdaniel: not everybody use erc :p 2015-07-19T09:57:38Z sbe: Thank you very much beach 2015-07-19T09:57:50Z beach: Heh! You are welcome, sbe. 2015-07-19T09:58:05Z sbe: whats your abbrev for you're welcome? 2015-07-19T09:58:12Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: hi 2015-07-19T09:58:17Z jackdaniel: dmitigr: hello 2015-07-19T09:58:18Z beach: Don't have one actually. 2015-07-19T09:58:36Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T09:58:51Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-19T09:59:17Z jackdaniel: well, you can write C in C++, but what's the point of using C++ then? ;) C++, as something distinct, is a mess imo 2015-07-19T09:59:39Z dmitigr: C++ is a horrible language because of it's ugly semantic. 2015-07-19T10:00:00Z beach: dmitigr: Since we can't measure maintainability, we could argue that point forever. I'll decline. 2015-07-19T10:00:04Z dmitigr: so, it is impossible (or very very difficult) to create useful IDE for it 2015-07-19T10:00:31Z jackdaniel: problem with C++ is that when language creators had to choose between two viable solutions, they implemented both 2015-07-19T10:00:39Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:00:44Z dmitigr: parsing C++ code is painful because it too context-denepdend 2015-07-19T10:00:53Z dmitigr: dependend 2015-07-19T10:01:04Z Shinmera: *dependant 2015-07-19T10:01:08Z dmitigr: right 2015-07-19T10:01:18Z Shinmera: Get a spell checker. 2015-07-19T10:01:26Z dmitigr: Shinmera: :) 2015-07-19T10:01:39Z beach: M-x flyspell-mode 2015-07-19T10:01:41Z beach: Easy. 2015-07-19T10:01:53Z jackdaniel: unless not using erc ^_^ 2015-07-19T10:02:04Z dmitigr: I use erc 2015-07-19T10:02:17Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:02:33Z sbe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T10:02:42Z dmitigr: oops, rcirc 2015-07-19T10:02:51Z beach: Sometimes I hit RETURN before having time to look at what the spell checker said. 2015-07-19T10:04:31Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:04:44Z sebbee joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:05:35Z dmitigr: another problem of C++ is ugly template language -- the C++ language unavailable in templates. CL macros much better because the whole host language are available on the compile stage 2015-07-19T10:06:03Z sebbee: ugly template language? 2015-07-19T10:06:28Z dmitigr: CL macros are primitive and that makes them so powerful :) 2015-07-19T10:06:36Z zacharias quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T10:06:49Z jackdaniel: I'd say they are far from primitive 2015-07-19T10:07:10Z beach: He means built-in, maybe? 2015-07-19T10:07:25Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: look at the Racket macros and see the difference :) 2015-07-19T10:08:16Z jackdaniel: don't ceed into me "looking for a difference", comparison isn't method of measuring sophistication 2015-07-19T10:08:22Z sebbee: isn't racket a scheme and not comparable with clisp 2015-07-19T10:08:33Z sebbee: atleast thats what I've been told last time I mentioned racket 2015-07-19T10:08:46Z jackdaniel: sebbee: you're right, but clisp is implementation, cl is language ;) 2015-07-19T10:08:49Z beach: sebbee: CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp. 2015-07-19T10:09:13Z beach: sebbee: So you can't compare a language (Scheme) with an implementation (CLISP). 2015-07-19T10:09:41Z sebbee: oh 2015-07-19T10:09:50Z sebbee: i was talking about common lisp 2015-07-19T10:09:55Z sebbee: guess clisp is not common lisp 2015-07-19T10:09:57Z dmitigr: sebbee: C++ templates allow to do some kind of metaprogramming, but the C++ unavailable on the compilation stage. only ugly "template" language are available. you can read The Modern C++ Design by Alexandresku to see what I mean :) 2015-07-19T10:10:16Z sebbee: i have to work with c++ at university at the moment 2015-07-19T10:10:27Z sebbee: i know the pain but where comes lisp in 2015-07-19T10:10:30Z beach: sebbee: CLISP is an implementation of the Common Lisp language. 2015-07-19T10:11:21Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-19T10:14:12Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: by primitiveness of CL macros I meant that the programmer can just use the host language i.e. the CL and without any hygiene (e.g. as in Racket) 2015-07-19T10:16:01Z jackdaniel: hm, what hygiene prevents given programmer uses gensyms ? 2015-07-19T10:16:21Z jackdaniel: programmer not using hygienic macros° 2015-07-19T10:17:19Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:18:19Z jackdaniel: ok, I've found, someone can shadow built-in operators 2015-07-19T10:20:48Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:20:55Z Guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:21:19Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: nothing prevents. but hygienic macros are less primitive than macros w/o one 2015-07-19T10:21:39Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: the CL macros are strict subset of Racket macros 2015-07-19T10:21:51Z dmitigr: have to go! see you latter 2015-07-19T10:21:53Z jackdaniel: so you say, that a men in a hat is less primitive then men with a hat? 2015-07-19T10:21:58Z jackdaniel: s/is/are/ 2015-07-19T10:22:06Z jackdaniel: s/with/without/ 2015-07-19T10:23:11Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: 13:08 <jackdaniel> don't ceed into me "looking for a difference", comparison isn't method of measuring sophistication :) 2015-07-19T10:23:30Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: see you latter bro :) 2015-07-19T10:23:33Z dmitigr quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2015-07-19T10:24:02Z jackdaniel: it is irrevelant as far as I can process - you claim that hygiene is matter of sophistication, I say it is constraint ruling out many things 2015-07-19T10:33:30Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:35:02Z whiteline_ is now known as whiteline 2015-07-19T10:38:34Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:39:56Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:43:38Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-19T10:44:24Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:44:48Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T10:44:49Z scymtym_: Shinmera: re notifying users of upcoming breaking changes: the next SBCL release (or whenever sf recovers) will have a DEPRECATED declaration applicable to functions, variables and types that causes compile-time warnings when deprecated things are used. i think Xach mentioned he would be willing to collect such warnings during quicklisp builds and notify downstream projects. maybe this combination could be a first step towards a 2015-07-19T10:44:49Z scymtym_: solution. 2015-07-19T10:44:55Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:45:15Z Shinmera: Hmmm. That sounds great. 2015-07-19T10:45:25Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:47:02Z Shinmera: Reminds me to get going on writing a github API lib (unfortunately doing so requires me getting a github subscription) so that things like issue ticket submission on QL build failures can be automated. 2015-07-19T10:47:51Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:49:18Z echo-area quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T10:53:58Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-19T10:58:23Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-19T10:58:50Z pjb`: beach: I think that given the VCS and bug tracker histories we have now available, it should be possible to establish a statistical model of the maintainability, in function of the changes requested (and implemented). A tool could be written to analyse project history and determine a "maintainability" coefficient. 2015-07-19T11:00:24Z pjb`: jackdaniel: indeed, there are more than half a dozen irc clients on emacs… http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/InternetRelayChat 2015-07-19T11:06:03Z Akshay_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T11:07:35Z ziocroc2 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T11:08:35Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-19T11:09:13Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T11:10:06Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-19T11:12:17Z ziocroc2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T11:15:49Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T11:16:28Z ziocroc2 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T11:16:36Z ziocroc2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T11:16:47Z ziocroc2 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T11:16:59Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-19T11:17:49Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-07-19T11:23:57Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T11:24:08Z loz1: greetings #lisp 2015-07-19T11:24:10Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-19T11:24:25Z loz1: I want to write a language and have some ideas in mind 2015-07-19T11:24:31Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T11:24:43Z ziocroc2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T11:25:44Z pjb`: Have you read the dragon book? 2015-07-19T11:26:36Z loz1: I'm in the process 2015-07-19T11:27:11Z ggole: Do you want to design a language, or construct a compiler for one? 2015-07-19T11:27:24Z ggole: (I wouldn't do both at the same time.) 2015-07-19T11:27:32Z loz1: the thing is I'm thinking about lisp with types checked in read time 2015-07-19T11:27:38Z ziocroc2 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T11:28:29Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-19T11:28:39Z loz1: and there are not many attempts in this field afaik 2015-07-19T11:29:02Z ggole: There are various stabs at a typed lisp around 2015-07-19T11:29:58Z pjb`: Yes, but not in read time. 2015-07-19T11:30:13Z kdas__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T11:30:18Z sebbee: What is the 'Dragon' book 2015-07-19T11:30:29Z pjb`: Even amazon knows! 2015-07-19T11:30:38Z ggole: It's an (outdated, imo) compiler text 2015-07-19T11:30:42Z loz1: even wikipedia knows) 2015-07-19T11:31:00Z ggole: Mind you, I haven't read the latest edition. 2015-07-19T11:31:10Z pjb`: http://www.amazon.com/Compilers-Principles-Techniques-Tools-2nd/dp/0321486811/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1437305464&sr=8-1&keywords=dragon+book+compiler 2015-07-19T11:31:16Z loz1: ggole: shen, typed racket, what else? 2015-07-19T11:31:32Z sebbee: oh pjb` , i got your memo but was unable to reply 2015-07-19T11:31:38Z ggole: Chris Done's thing 2015-07-19T11:31:39Z pjb`: loz1: Common Lisp. 2015-07-19T11:31:41Z ggole: Gimme a sec 2015-07-19T11:32:03Z loz1: pjb`: it checks types at runtime, isn't it? 2015-07-19T11:32:15Z ggole: https://gist.github.com/chrisdone/516489f4f27846712225#file-anintro-md 2015-07-19T11:32:16Z pjb`: tell that to sbcl.. 2015-07-19T11:32:21Z ggole: Bit of a toy 2015-07-19T11:33:31Z loz1: ggole: is it deriving types? 2015-07-19T11:33:43Z schjetne: loz1: if you just need to change the read-time behaviour there's no need to build a whole compiler or whole new language. Try writing a type-checking reader for Common Lisp. 2015-07-19T11:34:01Z ggole: Yeah, pretty much standard prenex polymorphism AFAICT 2015-07-19T11:34:50Z loz1: schjetne: sounds like what I can afford in few evenings, ye 2015-07-19T11:34:50Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T11:35:09Z schjetne: Should be enough to test your hypothesis 2015-07-19T11:35:12Z b_ joined #lisp 2015-07-19T11:36:25Z schjetne: What's your main rationale for a statically typed Lisp? Performance? Correctness? 2015-07-19T11:36:51Z loz1: correctness 2015-07-19T11:37:05Z mc40 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T11:37:28Z pjb`: This cannot be done at read time DUH! 2015-07-19T11:37:50Z loz1: I was thinking about dynamic language for scripting which I can actually put in use 2015-07-19T11:37:57Z pjb`: If you had sayd for crazyness, I wouldn't mind, but you won't achieve correctness at read time. 2015-07-19T11:38:30Z loz1: pjb`: what exactly do you mean? 2015-07-19T11:39:04Z schjetne: Besides, static types isn't a panacea, it prevents type errors, and in my experience type errors is only a small fraction of bugs, at least in the software I write. 2015-07-19T11:39:14Z pjb`: When you read: (lambda (x) you cannot know the type of x, because you haven't read the body yet! 2015-07-19T11:39:48Z loz1: language can force you to specify types in such places I guess 2015-07-19T11:39:58Z pjb`: loz1: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Ambitious.html 2015-07-19T11:40:13Z loz1: I will, thx 2015-07-19T11:41:27Z lisper29` is now known as lisper29 2015-07-19T11:45:08Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-19T11:46:00Z bullone joined #lisp 2015-07-19T11:46:32Z bullone left #lisp 2015-07-19T11:48:08Z rritoch: loz1: Clojure already uses non-strict typing by applying metadata. You may want to look at their syntax before you re-invent the wheel. 2015-07-19T11:50:27Z pjb`: rritoch: Common Lisp already has a perfectly good syntax to declare the types! 2015-07-19T11:50:32Z pjb`: There's no wheel to invent here. 2015-07-19T11:51:07Z pjb`: and in anycase, you DO NOT WANT to declare types. You want the compiler to INFER them. 2015-07-19T11:53:10Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T11:55:23Z rritoch: pjb`: So how do you do that in a case of defun where your trying to limit, or hint to the compiler, the argument type? 2015-07-19T11:55:48Z theos: CL>Clojure 2015-07-19T11:56:31Z pjb`: rritoch: you don't want to limit types. Write generic functions, it's better. 2015-07-19T11:57:05Z rritoch: pjb`: Doesn't that invalidate your previous statement that Common Lisp already has a perfectly good syntax to declare the types? 2015-07-19T11:57:20Z pjb`: rritoch: no. Just: do not use it! 2015-07-19T11:57:57Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-19T11:58:19Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-19T11:59:17Z rritoch: pjb`: I really can't find an example of it, and I've never seen it done before, which is why I ask. Though I have seen it in Clojure. 2015-07-19T12:03:02Z daimrod joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:04:16Z rritoch: pjb`: I'm also looking for the methods of reading function metadata in general, such as the documentation sring. 2015-07-19T12:08:55Z Beetny_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T12:10:29Z lispguy1 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:12:30Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-19T12:13:35Z Akshay_ joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:14:12Z loz1: rritoch: is clojure metadata similar to cl's symbol's properties? 2015-07-19T12:14:21Z pjb`: rritoch: (with-input-from-string (source "(defun f (x y) (declare (integer x)) \"does something\" (declare (character y)) (+ x (char-code y)))") (multiple-value-bind (docstrings declarations body) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-sexp.source-form:parse-body :lambda (cdddr (read source))) (declare (ignore declarations body)) (first docstrings))) 2015-07-19T12:16:36Z therik joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:16:36Z sebbee: read a file character by character in lisp? 2015-07-19T12:16:50Z pjb`: Why would you do that? 2015-07-19T12:16:55Z therik: hello 2015-07-19T12:17:15Z pjb`: Use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:text-file-contents to read wholesale! 2015-07-19T12:18:08Z loz1: pjb`: i have read Kent's article 2015-07-19T12:18:29Z pjb`: Do you understand the difference between read-time and compilation-time now? 2015-07-19T12:19:02Z loz1: well, yes, and reasons not to mix them 2015-07-19T12:19:27Z lispguy1: I want to fork from SBCL 2015-07-19T12:19:36Z pjb`: loz1: type inference is done by the compiler at compilation time. 2015-07-19T12:20:22Z rritoch: pjb`: You can only get the docstrings when they're being read? 2015-07-19T12:20:25Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:20:30Z loz1: maybe its just about terminology 2015-07-19T12:20:35Z pjb`: loz1: you can write a static analyser, that will basically be a compiler that doesn't generate code, but that does all the early phases the compiler does: code walker, environment tracking, type inference. Plus any checking you'd like to do, like global analysis. 2015-07-19T12:21:04Z pjb`: rritoch: here's cl:documentation, but no guarantee. 2015-07-19T12:21:08Z pjb`: +t 2015-07-19T12:21:39Z loz1: pjb`: that sounds like what I'm thinking of 2015-07-19T12:22:53Z lispguy1: SBCL's maintainers did nothing to correct the situations with sourceforge unavaibility. I want to fork to start my own Lisp implementation. 2015-07-19T12:23:14Z loz1: lispguy1: you have my blessing 2015-07-19T12:23:18Z christoph_debian: lol. because auf 5 days downtime of their website? 2015-07-19T12:23:22Z pjb`: loz1: notice that to do that, you will need to read the source like the compiler does it, including macroexpanding toplevel forms, including evaluation of any toplevel form in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) …), in particular, in-package and setf *readtable* forms, and #. etc. 2015-07-19T12:23:22Z rritoch: loz1: Yes, clojure metadata is mostly identical to symbol properties 2015-07-19T12:23:35Z pjb`: loz1: basically, you're writing a compiler. 2015-07-19T12:23:58Z pjb`: loz1: perhaps you could work with/on sicl. 2015-07-19T12:24:51Z loz1: pjb`: for now I want something really smaller than cl 2015-07-19T12:24:59Z pjb`: loz1: when I say global analysis, I mean, analysis beyond the compilation-unit boundaries. 2015-07-19T12:25:15Z pjb`: loz1: compile-file must work on a compilation-unit, and perform separated compilation. 2015-07-19T12:26:02Z loz1: looks like a separation of compiling process to me 2015-07-19T12:26:13Z pjb`: loz1: but what one would want, is to save a lisp image, and therefore, perform an analysis on all the code that has been compiled and loaded in the lisp image, to validate the types globally, and possibly eliminate dead code (three shaking). 2015-07-19T12:26:41Z loz1: you compiled one file, second, and don't get anything you can run until you compiled whole thing 2015-07-19T12:27:08Z rritoch: pjb`: Yeah, cl:documentation is what I was looking for, at least it is a step forward 2015-07-19T12:27:23Z pjb`: loz1: So your compiler would have to be able to "compile" compilation units, noting all the info it requires, and then have a global analysis phase once all the compilation units have been loaded, before saving the executable image. 2015-07-19T12:28:08Z loz1: you are making things complex, aren't you?) 2015-07-19T12:28:22Z pjb`: They are this way. 2015-07-19T12:28:29Z pjb`: Alternatively, it could do both, like ecl is able to process a asd file to generate a library or an executable, but it may be less easy for the user. 2015-07-19T12:29:05Z pjb`: loz1: you have semantic problems because of the Turing complete evaluations possible at read time, at compilation time and macroexpansion time. 2015-07-19T12:29:20Z pjb`: loz1: This is why you have to reproduce the minimal compilation algorithm. 2015-07-19T12:30:23Z loz1: this language is not intended to be metacircular 2015-07-19T12:31:11Z loz1: at read-time I want to use only what is available on underlying platform 2015-07-19T12:31:29Z pjb`: If you're not discussin Common Lisp, the change channel. 2015-07-19T12:32:02Z loz1: there is no channel for my language yet 2015-07-19T12:32:15Z lispguy1: loz1: so create one 2015-07-19T12:32:49Z loz1: pjb`: maybe you can suggest any channel to discuss such things? 2015-07-19T12:33:06Z pjb`: or ##lisp 2015-07-19T12:33:22Z lispguy1: loz1: why do you need you own language? 2015-07-19T12:33:40Z lispguy1: loz1: lets start the own implementation by forking from SBCL! 2015-07-19T12:33:43Z pjb`: when all you want is a global static analyser of CL programs… 2015-07-19T12:34:07Z loz1: lispguy1: I don't want CL this is the thing 2015-07-19T12:34:08Z H4ns: you don't make anything into being "your own" by forking it 2015-07-19T12:34:21Z H4ns: besides, https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl 2015-07-19T12:34:53Z pjb`: it might be easier to work with sicl. 2015-07-19T12:35:14Z loz1: pjb`: I don't quite understand what sicl is 2015-07-19T12:35:19Z pjb`: a compiler. 2015-07-19T12:35:28Z Shinmera: loz1: If you don't want CL then you also don't want this channel. 2015-07-19T12:35:32Z loz1: is it implementation or some kind of description of practicies? 2015-07-19T12:35:42Z pjb`: an implementation. 2015-07-19T12:35:54Z loz1: on cl itself? 2015-07-19T12:36:05Z pjb`: like sbcl. 2015-07-19T12:36:16Z pjb`: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2015-07-19T12:36:17Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:37:30Z pjb`: There's only one letter difference. 2015-07-19T12:37:43Z lispguy1: H4ns: William Harold Newman forked CMUCL to create SBCL. I want to fork in that fashion to create LispGuyCl 2015-07-19T12:37:45Z loz1: Shinmera: I want this channel cause I can discuss language construction here) 2015-07-19T12:37:55Z lispguy1: H4ns: what wrong with it? 2015-07-19T12:38:07Z Shinmera: This channel is for CL. If you don't want to write a CL or write it in CL you are in the wrong place. 2015-07-19T12:38:07Z loz1: Shinmera: if you have a better one in mind, tell please 2015-07-19T12:38:51Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:38:54Z pgomes quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-19T12:39:00Z loz1: Shinmera: I will write first implementation in CL, ok?) 2015-07-19T12:39:04Z H4ns: lispguy1: what is your contribution that warrants putting your own name on something that many smart people contributed to? 2015-07-19T12:39:16Z Shinmera: loz1: Good. Then now ask CL questions related to that. 2015-07-19T12:40:28Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:40:43Z lisper29 left #lisp 2015-07-19T12:40:45Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T12:41:16Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:41:46Z jackdaniel: why fork? I'm sure SBCL will gladly take sensible contributions 2015-07-19T12:42:35Z rritoch: loz1: In miy experience your not going to be able to find much help with compiler design, there are VERY few people who do it. What I can say is that you seem to be headed directly for a dead-end if your going to write your first language from scratch. 2015-07-19T12:42:59Z pjb`: jackdaniel: because that's the normal way with github: you fork, you modify your repo, then you send a merge request. 2015-07-19T12:43:08Z rritoch: loz1: Your better off using a compiler-compiler like yacc, sablecc, etc. 2015-07-19T12:43:12Z lispguy1: H4ns: I'm not satisfied how SBCL is maintained hence I want to fork. I haven't contributed anything, but what can prevent me to fork? 2015-07-19T12:43:33Z loz1: rritoch: aren't they just generate a reader/parser for you? 2015-07-19T12:43:33Z lispguy1: H4ns: the license does not prevents me 2015-07-19T12:43:43Z keen__________25 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:43:51Z jackdaniel: pjb`: I believe it's not what lispguy1 wants to do - my question was context-dependant 2015-07-19T12:44:10Z loz1: lispguy1: you could do it like 50 times instead of talking here) 2015-07-19T12:44:15Z rritoch: loz1: They build the AST for you, potentially saving you a year+ of development time. 2015-07-19T12:44:33Z keen__________24 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T12:45:13Z loz1: rritoch: I don't quite understand, what is the format of this AST, how can I use it? 2015-07-19T12:45:43Z rritoch: loz1: You need to hit the books. If you don't know what an AST is, your not ready to create your own language. 2015-07-19T12:46:00Z ggole: There's #compilers, but it's very quiet 2015-07-19T12:46:22Z rritoch: loz1: AST = Abstract Syntax Tree 2015-07-19T12:46:46Z loz1: rritoch: I know that, just how do I put semantics on top of it? 2015-07-19T12:47:19Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T12:47:51Z loz1: rritoch: or do these tools generate me the whole thing? 2015-07-19T12:48:53Z rritoch: loz1: It really depends on what compiler-compiler you use, but either you'll edit the generated AST or you'll extend the generated AST, in most cases. 2015-07-19T12:49:11Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:49:39Z ggole: ASTs aren't all that much work 2015-07-19T12:49:43Z rritoch: loz1: I like sablecc since it produces java which is easy to work with, you can literally get your first language working within a week. 2015-07-19T12:50:46Z rritoch: loz1: Just read the documentation of whatever compiler-compiler you use, they explain how to create an implementation from the generated code. 2015-07-19T12:50:52Z ggole: And to get started you can skip lexing and parsing and write ASTs of some test programs by hand 2015-07-19T12:51:12Z mc40 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T12:51:30Z ggole: Going back to the start once you know more or less what you are doing. 2015-07-19T12:53:07Z loz1: rritoch: so the output is some kind of program on my host language which I can use and extend? 2015-07-19T12:53:26Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:53:41Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T12:53:48Z rritoch: loz1: Yes, compiler-compiler's generate source code for you to edit and/or extend. 2015-07-19T12:54:43Z rritoch: loz1: You write out the syntax of your language, typically in a BNF grammar file, and it generates half of the code for you. 2015-07-19T12:57:24Z loz1: >once you know more or less what you are doing 2015-07-19T12:57:24Z loz1: I remember one guy on local meetup said 'when you are starting to write program you often don't even know what do you want' 2015-07-19T12:59:30Z ggole: loz1: oh, irken was the other thing I had in mind 2015-07-19T12:59:33Z ggole: Just remembered it 2015-07-19T12:59:55Z ggole: It's more like ML in Lisp clothing than a statically typed Lisp though 2015-07-19T13:00:02Z rritoch: To get back on topic, are there any compiler-compilers which generate lisp? 2015-07-19T13:00:03Z norfumpit quit (Quit: See You, Space Cowboy ...) 2015-07-19T13:00:18Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T13:00:56Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:01:37Z rritoch: There must be since there seems to be this mistaken belief that lisp is the language to write compilers in, even though I've never seen a single compiler written in lisp, other than lisp compilers themselves. 2015-07-19T13:01:49Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:02:21Z loz1: rritoch: there is cl-peg 2015-07-19T13:02:32Z norfumpit quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-19T13:03:43Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:04:37Z loz1: rritoch: hm, btw, if I write grammar for particular compiler-compiler, does that mean it can be easily ported to different platforms? 2015-07-19T13:04:57Z rritoch: loz1: Cool, well that would proabbly be a good starting point for you, assuming you can find the documentation. 2015-07-19T13:06:50Z pjb`: rritoch: you must be quite blind. 2015-07-19T13:07:25Z loz1: and one more, are there any more or less popular languages created using compiler-compiler? 2015-07-19T13:07:54Z norfumpit quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-19T13:08:12Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:08:36Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:09:17Z rritoch: loz1: Your confusing languages with implementations. Most, if not all, modern languages can be implemented using a compiler-compiler. 2015-07-19T13:10:07Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:10:40Z rritoch: loz1: C, Java, and Ruby are languages that I've seen BNF grammars for. There is probably one for lisp also though I immagine it is boring. 2015-07-19T13:11:05Z loz1: rritoch: ok, I see 2015-07-19T13:11:44Z pjb`: rritoch: no, there's no bnf for lisp. 2015-07-19T13:11:49Z rritoch: loz1: I'm not sure how accurate this is, but here... http://cui.unige.ch/isi/bnf/LISP/BNFlisp.html 2015-07-19T13:11:51Z pjb`: rritoch: there's a lisp reader algorithm. 2015-07-19T13:11:59Z pjb`: rritoch: it is totally wrong. 2015-07-19T13:12:01Z rritoch: pjb`: ^^^ 2015-07-19T13:12:25Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-19T13:12:32Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2015-07-19T13:12:39Z pjb`: rritoch: try in your REPL: (set-syntax-from-char #\( #\a) 2015-07-19T13:13:09Z rritoch: pjb`: I wouldn't say that, it is over-simplified and not-CL compliant, but it is still LISP 2015-07-19T13:13:40Z rritoch: pjb`: Even if you include reader-macros in the BNF it wouldn't be that complex. 2015-07-19T13:13:44Z beach: rritoch: We don't to LISP anymore. We haven't for decades. Now we do Lisp and that grammar is totally wrong. 2015-07-19T13:13:49Z pjb`: LOL! 2015-07-19T13:14:45Z beach: rritoch: If you are going to state things with such certainty, I recommend you check your facts first. There are quite a lot of very knowledgeable people here in #lisp, and they would very much appreciate that. 2015-07-19T13:15:10Z beach: rritoch: And pjb` is definitely one of those people. 2015-07-19T13:15:33Z soultadu joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:15:54Z rritoch: beach: myob, I wasn't disrespecting him in any way. But while he may know Lisp, I know compiler design, which is what we are talking about. 2015-07-19T13:16:18Z beach: rritoch: Then you are off topic. This channel is about Common Lisp. 2015-07-19T13:16:47Z norfumpit quit (Quit: See You, Space Cowboy ...) 2015-07-19T13:17:20Z rritoch: beach: And that has already been brought up previously, but not helping someone just because it's off topic is elitest garbage, especially in a dying language like lisp that could use as many supporters as possible. 2015-07-19T13:17:57Z beach: rritoch: But I will remember your domain of competence the day I need to ask questions about the best algorithm to use for PRE that can handle conditional branches in MIR as well. 2015-07-19T13:18:48Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:19:24Z norfumpit quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-19T13:19:59Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:20:03Z rritoch: beach: No, can't help you there. I don't deal with compiler optimization, I just care about getting things to work, I don't care much about efficiency due to moore's law. 2015-07-19T13:20:27Z beach: I am beginning to understand. 2015-07-19T13:20:49Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:20:51Z rritoch: beach: Most of my work is in web development, efficiency is rarely an issue there since the network itself provides most latency 2015-07-19T13:21:08Z beach: Like I said, I am beginning to understand. 2015-07-19T13:21:10Z ggole: beach: are you starting to seriously write optimisation passes? 2015-07-19T13:21:13Z Guthur`: rritoch: it's apparently ending so you might have to start worrying, hehe 2015-07-19T13:21:32Z Guthur`: mainly because it was never actually a law, just an observation 2015-07-19T13:21:42Z beach: ggole: I already implemented some stuff, but I think it has bitrotted at this point. 2015-07-19T13:22:15Z beach: ggole: I will need liveness analysis soon, and that one is still working, modulo a few API changes. 2015-07-19T13:22:39Z beach: ggole: Not a very serious optimization pass, though. 2015-07-19T13:22:51Z rritoch: Guthur: It isn't ending, and again far off topic. Just google Xion PHI, NVidia Tesla, and AMD firepro 2015-07-19T13:22:56Z ggole: Right. It's not a bad idea to leave it until later anyway. 2015-07-19T13:23:10Z jackdaniel: Guthur`: aren't laws in physical world just models based on observation? ;) 2015-07-19T13:23:28Z beach: ggole: But the liveness stuff is needed in the type inferencer, and that one I am currently working on. 2015-07-19T13:23:55Z loz1: and they are saying compilers are off the topic! 2015-07-19T13:23:56Z schjetne: Until I can download a faster processor I very much care about efficiency 2015-07-19T13:23:58Z Guthur`: jackdaniel, true, they don't tend to shift as often as Moore's though 2015-07-19T13:24:18Z pjb`: loz1: compilers of random languages. But not compilers of Common Lisp :-) 2015-07-19T13:24:22Z beach: loz1: Common Lisp compilers are on topic. 2015-07-19T13:24:38Z jackdaniel: arguably, but I see your point 2015-07-19T13:25:01Z loz1: and only processors which can run CL?) 2015-07-19T13:25:12Z ggole: beach: so reaching definitions? I'm actually not very familiar with how to infer types in languages like CL. 2015-07-19T13:25:50Z beach: ggole: It can be done fairly easily, using forward flow analysis. 2015-07-19T13:25:56Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:26:06Z rritoch: loz1: I'm confidient Xion PHI can run CL since it's intel architecture. The rest I'm not sure about since it would require a micro version of lisp that can fit in a GPU shader. 2015-07-19T13:26:08Z jackdaniel: rritoch: claiming sloppy design and not carying about optimization is justified by moors law is bs I hear to often 2015-07-19T13:26:18Z jackdaniel: s/to/too/ 2015-07-19T13:26:48Z beach: ggole: Define yourself a finite lattice representing some simplified type system and just do a `join' when your flow converges. 2015-07-19T13:27:01Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:27:11Z jackdaniel: and in a matter of fact experience, when surfing through overdesigned web apps with more js then actual content 2015-07-19T13:27:23Z rritoch: jackdaniel: Code golf and optimization have it's place, but not wasting your time over-optimizing isn't equivalent to sloppy code. 2015-07-19T13:27:46Z ggole: beach: do you do anything like path sensitive refinement (eg, (if (consp x) <x is evidently a cons here> ...)? 2015-07-19T13:27:54Z beach: Guthur`: Strictly speaking, Moore's law is still fairly valid. It is a common misunderstanding that it has to do with performance. It has to do with transistor count. 2015-07-19T13:27:57Z ggole: That seems like the tricky part to me. 2015-07-19T13:28:07Z beach: ggole: Yes, definitely. 2015-07-19T13:28:51Z norfumpit quit (Quit: See You, Space Cowboy ...) 2015-07-19T13:28:55Z beach: ggole: In Cleavir HIR, I define an "instruction" called TYPEQ that branches according to a statically known type. That instruction is used by the type inferencer. 2015-07-19T13:28:57Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:29:10Z beach: ggole: Functions such as CONSP are defined in terms of that instruction. 2015-07-19T13:29:20Z beach: ggole: ... and then inlined. 2015-07-19T13:29:24Z ggole: Ah, I see. 2015-07-19T13:29:37Z beach: Pretty simple, really. 2015-07-19T13:29:47Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:30:07Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:30:12Z Guthur`: beach: yep, was aware of the misconception 2015-07-19T13:30:26Z beach: So you just saw your chance, huh. :) 2015-07-19T13:30:39Z beach: I might have taken it too. :) 2015-07-19T13:31:19Z norfumpit quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-19T13:31:36Z Guthur`: it's been in the news a bit recently with IBM doing some nice stuff in the lab, and Intel having trouble at the fab 2015-07-19T13:32:09Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:33:23Z ggole: I was thinking about introducing explicit refinement instructions and rewriting uses to point to them, eg (if (consp x) (foo x)) becomes (the IR equivalent of) (if (consp x) (let ((_x (presume-type 'cons x))) (foo _x))) 2015-07-19T13:33:39Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:34:25Z ggole: I think your approach is better. This way makes it very easy for an analysis to know about the refinement, but it's a pain to have to "look through" the additional binding to get to the original definition. 2015-07-19T13:36:43Z norfumpit quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-19T13:36:44Z beach: ggole: I see. 2015-07-19T13:36:56Z mtd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T13:36:59Z pjb`: ggole: (if (consp x) (foo (the cons x))) 2015-07-19T13:37:06Z pjb`: from (if (consp x) (foo x)) 2015-07-19T13:37:30Z beach: It will end up being the same after transformation into SSA. 2015-07-19T13:37:32Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:37:47Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:37:54Z beach: ggole: Your approach does a bit of SSA as well. 2015-07-19T13:38:08Z beach: ... by separating x and _x 2015-07-19T13:38:11Z ggole: Yeah. 2015-07-19T13:38:35Z ggole: With similar benefits and drawbacks, I would guess. 2015-07-19T13:38:59Z beach: I would think so, yes. 2015-07-19T13:39:16Z ggole: eg, IR size increase, having to do so-called phi-translation for some algorithms, etc 2015-07-19T13:40:32Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:40:53Z beach: Which reminds me, I still have to go through the literature and check which algorithms that require SSA actually take advantage of the fact that each assignment occurs only once. I know one, but by doing that, the algorithm is less effective than it could be. 2015-07-19T13:41:42Z norfumpit quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-19T13:43:02Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:43:30Z beach: That work could become an interesting survey paper. 2015-07-19T13:47:12Z beach: ggole: Do you write technical papers for publication? 2015-07-19T13:47:45Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-19T13:48:07Z ggole: No, every time I "invent" something good it's been done better twenty years ago -_- 2015-07-19T13:48:17Z beach: Ouch! :) 2015-07-19T13:48:36Z ggole: So far that's happened for PRE, TRMC, and "tagless" GC 2015-07-19T13:48:38Z ggole: Sigh 2015-07-19T13:49:16Z beach: As long as it doesn't happen ALL THE TIME it is fine. 2015-07-19T13:49:39Z beach: Inventing something like that is quite good actually. It means you have good ideas. 2015-07-19T13:49:41Z rritoch: Is there any free source for the metaobject protocol specification, or at least a list of the functions provied by implementations that support it? 2015-07-19T13:50:02Z rritoch: provied=provided 2015-07-19T13:50:11Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/table-of-contents.html 2015-07-19T13:50:28Z rritoch: beach: ty 2015-07-19T13:50:38Z beach: ywlcm 2015-07-19T13:51:18Z beach: This is actually the start page: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ 2015-07-19T13:51:27Z beach: It has some "about" information on it too. 2015-07-19T13:52:18Z lispguy1: jackdaniel: why to fork? because concurrency is always good. and because I don't want waste my time to ask mainteiners to commit my desire 2015-07-19T13:54:07Z jackdaniel: depends on wording, what you call concurrency I call splitting effort, or even reiterate same work in parallel 2015-07-19T13:54:08Z loz1: guys, guys 2015-07-19T13:54:20Z jackdaniel: s/reiterate/reiterating/ 2015-07-19T13:55:16Z beach: lispguy1: Go right ahead. What is keeping you? 2015-07-19T13:55:25Z loz1: I just imagined ORM which looks at your database, checks tables and fields and creates classes to access data and everything 2015-07-19T13:55:50Z loz1: and I'm sure there were attempts to make something like this 2015-07-19T13:55:58Z loz1: do you know any? 2015-07-19T13:56:03Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T13:56:13Z rritoch: loz1: Lol, your trying to get a lawsuit arn't you? 2015-07-19T13:56:45Z rritoch: loz1: Here's some free legal advice, AVOID publishing ANY ORM implementation. 2015-07-19T13:56:51Z loz1: no, I want to check if this idea bad or good and why 2015-07-19T13:57:21Z rritoch: loz1: It's a bad idea beacuse it is already patented, in the most illegitamite piece of garbage you'll ever read, if you take the time to read it. 2015-07-19T13:57:22Z loz1: rritoch: I dont have any implementation, just got the idea 2015-07-19T13:57:49Z rritoch: loz1: The patent virtually covers any possible ORM implementation 2015-07-19T13:57:52Z jackdaniel: isn't it software, which isn't patentable right now? 2015-07-19T13:58:10Z rritoch: loz1: There is technically "prior art" supposedly found by sun, but google paid their way out of their lawsuit. 2015-07-19T13:58:12Z loz1: rritoch: are you talking about something particular? 2015-07-19T13:58:51Z rritoch: jackdaniel: Possibly, there's no case-law yet to establish it yet as a fact until someone takes it to court and actually uses the supreme court decision as their defense, and that defense is accepted. 2015-07-19T13:59:16Z rritoch: jackdaniel: It will take someone with deep pockets to go down that road 2015-07-19T13:59:26Z H4ns: rritoch: please take that discussion somewhere else? 2015-07-19T13:59:56Z loz1: I don't really care about laws and such things 2015-07-19T14:00:09Z loz1: what about the *idea*? 2015-07-19T14:00:13Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:00:43Z H4ns: loz1: have you looked at the many orm implementations that exist for common lisp yet? 2015-07-19T14:00:43Z loz1: every ORM I have used made db from your code 2015-07-19T14:01:18Z loz1: H4ns: CLSQL only 2015-07-19T14:01:33Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T14:01:35Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T14:02:17Z H4ns: loz1: actually, now that i think of it, there are not too many that i could recommend to look at. 2015-07-19T14:03:01Z H4ns: loz1: while the idea is rather obvious, making an orm that actually works is a lot of hard work, and the work becomes much less fun once you recognize that orm's basically suck :) 2015-07-19T14:03:36Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:03:44Z loz1: H4ns: and which way for dealing with db doesn't suck? 2015-07-19T14:04:05Z H4ns: loz1: that said, i think dwim.hu had something that was complete enough to work at some point. 2015-07-19T14:04:08Z lispguy1: loz1: Postmodern is nice 2015-07-19T14:04:19Z lispguy1: loz1: and ORM are suck IMO 2015-07-19T14:04:45Z H4ns: loz1: i find postmodern rather nice, too. it just requires giving up on the idea that a language object is a domain object is a database object. 2015-07-19T14:05:58Z loz1: H4ns: and how exactly does it maps objects on each other? 2015-07-19T14:06:31Z lispguy1: loz1: why do you want to do mapping? It very painful. Just use SQL 2015-07-19T14:06:48Z H4ns: loz1: i cannot tell you. i wrote an orm in c++ back in the day and recognized that it sucked. 2015-07-19T14:07:57Z lispguy1: loz1: all that "nice" ORM propaganda is created to force people do overcomplicated job 2015-07-19T14:08:19Z loz1: lispguy1: well, sql is painful 2015-07-19T14:08:25Z lispguy1: loz1: haha 2015-07-19T14:08:28Z rritoch: loz1: I'm with lispguy1 on this one. ORM's are extremly inefficient. Since your already familiar with AST's you can actually create an AST for SQL which makes developing complex queries much easier. 2015-07-19T14:08:41Z H4ns: loz1: it is really much less painful with postmodern 2015-07-19T14:09:01Z loz1: ok, looks like I just have to try it 2015-07-19T14:09:02Z lispguy1: loz1: SQL is not painful, it's a very simple and powerful DSL 2015-07-19T14:09:28Z H4ns: it cannot be painful, it is a dsl! 2015-07-19T14:09:55Z lispguy1: loz1: if you like Lisp or functional programming SQL should feels nice 2015-07-19T14:10:27Z lispguy1: loz1: the best "ORM" for Lisp is AllegroCache, probably 2015-07-19T14:10:45Z H4ns: lispguy1: AllegroCache is not an orm at all 2015-07-19T14:10:58Z lispguy1: H4ns: note quotes 2015-07-19T14:11:34Z H4ns: lispguy1: the quotes don't make your statement any more valid. you are spreading misinformation. and besides, allegrocache is pretty sucky in my book. 2015-07-19T14:12:21Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-19T14:12:51Z rritoch quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-19T14:13:48Z lispguy1: H4ns: it does in sence that with AllegroCache SQL does not needed at all 2015-07-19T14:14:04Z lispguy1: H4ns: but of course it is not an ORM 2015-07-19T14:14:31Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:14:37Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:16:17Z lispguy1: H4ns: what book you are writting? 2015-07-19T14:16:58Z H4ns: lispguy1: it is titled "wrong things that people said in #lisp1". today, i have added three chapters already 2015-07-19T14:17:28Z lispguy1: H4ns: haha 2015-07-19T14:17:34Z lispguy1: H4ns: nice 2015-07-19T14:19:03Z lispguy1: so, there is no usable DBMS written in Common Lisp 2015-07-19T14:19:07Z jdz: H4ns: haha, that's a good one. i'd definitely buy that book. 2015-07-19T14:19:25Z jdz: lispguy1: does PostgreSQL count? 2015-07-19T14:19:26Z DrWat joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:19:48Z H4ns: lispguy1: because allegrocache sucks, there is no usable dbms written in common lisp now? 2015-07-19T14:20:00Z lispguy1: jdz: PostgreSQL written in C 2015-07-19T14:20:09Z lispguy1: H4ns: tell me please that RDMBS 2015-07-19T14:20:23Z lispguy1: H4ns: I want to use it 2015-07-19T14:21:02Z pjb`: lispguy1: postgresql was written in lisp originally. 2015-07-19T14:21:17Z lispguy1: pjb: lol 2015-07-19T14:21:21Z lispguy1: pjb: I know 2015-07-19T14:21:24Z DrWatto quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-19T14:21:49Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:22:00Z ronh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T14:23:21Z phax left #lisp 2015-07-19T14:23:43Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T14:25:24Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:25:38Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-07-19T14:27:32Z lispguy1: AFAIK, Edi Weitz wanted to write a DBMS, but he have'nt time/money for it 2015-07-19T14:27:59Z sebbee: AST? DBMS? 2015-07-19T14:28:08Z lispguy1: I read his interview 2015-07-19T14:28:16Z lispguy1: sebbee: wut? 2015-07-19T14:29:05Z lispguy1: sebbee: AST? DBMS? 2015-07-19T14:29:16Z sebbee: ah, nvm 2015-07-19T14:29:19Z sebbee: you are talking databases 2015-07-19T14:29:38Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T14:32:42Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:45:53Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:48:42Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:50:47Z Guthur` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T14:50:52Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-19T14:52:36Z sebbee quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T14:53:48Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-19T14:54:07Z sandybatman joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:55:02Z sandybatman: Hi, does anybody else have a problem with slimv? I connect the first time around and it does nothing apart from displaying all those messages. I can get to work with it only *after* I connect the second time (again) 2015-07-19T14:55:27Z sandybatman: by connect - I mean the SWANK server. I use sbcl on 64 bit linux 2015-07-19T14:56:33Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T14:56:34Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:56:40Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T14:58:31Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:58:33Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-19T14:59:31Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T14:59:49Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:02:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:03:16Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T15:08:32Z RatelDev joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:10:37Z sandybatman quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-19T15:10:49Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:11:30Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T15:16:22Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T15:19:06Z jebes joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:20:52Z RatelDev quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T15:22:54Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T15:27:41Z soultadu quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2015-07-19T15:28:29Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T15:32:10Z b_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T15:33:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T15:37:01Z theos: everything that starts with Allegro- is sucky in my books 2015-07-19T15:37:15Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T15:38:59Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:41:14Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:41:21Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T15:41:35Z jackdaniel: they made possible many things 2015-07-19T15:42:51Z lispguy1: jackdaniel: but too expensive :( 2015-07-19T15:43:33Z jackdaniel: lispguy1: a see you are first-class troll, therefore I'm adding you to ignore list of my client. Sorry about that 2015-07-19T15:43:36Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:43:36Z jackdaniel: s/a/I/ 2015-07-19T15:45:04Z vibs29 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:45:28Z vibs29 is now known as Guest70392 2015-07-19T15:45:33Z lisper29 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T15:47:19Z lispguy1: jackdaniel: np 2015-07-19T15:50:12Z Xach: theos: get better books. 2015-07-19T15:51:39Z clique: i would like to know which kinds of books 2015-07-19T15:51:40Z p_l: I once got free enterprise licenses for ACL and AGraph for a project 2015-07-19T15:51:48Z p_l: guess how? I asked :D 2015-07-19T15:52:22Z lispguy1: theos: or get better compilers. For example, GCC :) It's available to download right now, not as sbcl. 2015-07-19T15:53:08Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:53:30Z lispguy1: @p_l: you are happy! 2015-07-19T15:53:32Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:53:43Z H4ns: was lisp discussed on reddit or something? 2015-07-19T15:54:12Z lispguy1: p_l: even LispWorks does'nt provide discounts 2015-07-19T15:54:21Z p_l: lispguy1: you'd be surprised 2015-07-19T15:54:49Z lispguy1: p_l: not, I'm not 2015-07-19T15:54:56Z marekk joined #lisp 2015-07-19T15:55:32Z p_l: GCC is kinda a susprise it turned out as good as it did 2015-07-19T15:56:25Z p_l: anyway, GCC is usually not the topic, so EOT on that 2015-07-19T15:56:40Z therik: Hello, I'm playing with a game I'm making and I want to implement large world map. For this map that contains various entities (moving and stationary), I need a function find-entities-in-rectangle that'd give me collection of entities in rectangle, marked by x1, y1, x2, y2 coordinates 2015-07-19T15:57:03Z lispguy1: p_l: I just want to add, that new JIT feature of GCC as awesome! :) 2015-07-19T15:57:14Z therik: I'm looking at R-trees and R*-trees, BSP methods and so on, any suggestion about which way to go? 2015-07-19T15:57:16Z lispguy1: s/as/is 2015-07-19T15:57:22Z p_l: therik: implement somethink along the line of R-tree? 2015-07-19T15:57:31Z p_l: ah, I see you already looked at them 2015-07-19T15:57:37Z axion: therik: quadtrees? 2015-07-19T15:58:06Z s00pcan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T15:58:21Z p_l: therik: I'd suggest experimenting with few approaches from the area, and see how well they mesh with the rest of your engine 2015-07-19T15:58:58Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-19T15:59:09Z beach: What on earth are all the arguments used for in the MOP function FIND-METHOD-COMBINATION? 2015-07-19T15:59:10Z beach: mop find-method-combination 2015-07-19T15:59:10Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/find-method-combination.html 2015-07-19T15:59:47Z therik: ok, so you confirmed that I'm looking in right direction.. I'll definitely experiment with it. Just one more doubt, if you'd be kind to dismiss: Can r-trees or quadtrees handle lot of moving entities on the map? 2015-07-19T15:59:56Z beach: Compare to this one: 2015-07-19T15:59:57Z beach: mop g-f-m-c 2015-07-19T15:59:57Z specbot: Matches: generic-function-method-class, generic-function-method-combination. 2015-07-19T16:00:10Z beach: mop generic-function-method-combination 2015-07-19T16:00:10Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-method-combination.html 2015-07-19T16:00:34Z p_l: therik: IMHO moving or not should not be too much of a problem, though it would depend on how well specific data structure handles updating. It would be one of the things I'd be testing for 2015-07-19T16:00:38Z lispguy1 changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2 2015-07-19T16:00:53Z lispguy1 changed the topic of #lisp to: hahaha 2015-07-19T16:00:55Z p_l: I think updating BSP can be a bit of pain 2015-07-19T16:01:31Z H4ns: therik: maybe https://github.com/hanshuebner/bos/blob/ab5944cc46f4a5ff5a08fd8aa4d228c0f9cfc771/web/quad-tree.lisp can serve as inspiration or basis for experiments 2015-07-19T16:01:32Z Shinmera sighs 2015-07-19T16:01:41Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@*109.165.53.246 2015-07-19T16:01:43Z beach: lispguy1: Can you please not do that. 2015-07-19T16:01:49Z lispguy1 [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (If you can't see why...) 2015-07-19T16:01:59Z p_l: anyone got a log of previous name? 2015-07-19T16:02:16Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1 2015-07-19T16:02:38Z gargaml joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:03:22Z beach: p_l: newtolispguy 2015-07-19T16:03:37Z beach: p_l: lispnewb 2015-07-19T16:04:55Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:06:18Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@*109.165.53.246 2015-07-19T16:06:21Z therik: thanks a lot guys! 2015-07-19T16:06:32Z p_l: beach: I removed the ban 2015-07-19T16:07:05Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:07:09Z p_l: but I think that noticing that you can change the /topic shouldn't result in immediately changing it to "hahahahaha" 2015-07-19T16:07:56Z cohakr joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:08:14Z theos has changed the topic to: dont ban me! 2015-07-19T16:09:02Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1 2015-07-19T16:09:02Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:09:35Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:09:43Z theos: hah! looks like H4ns uses an old irc client 2015-07-19T16:09:47Z H4ns: what's it with all these bottom feeders in this channel lately? reddit? something in the drinking water? paul graham republished one of his 2002 essays? 2015-07-19T16:09:49Z cohakr changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp is obsolete. Period. 2015-07-19T16:10:00Z H4ns: p_l: please 2015-07-19T16:10:11Z cohakr changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp is obsolete. 2015-07-19T16:10:13Z theos: cohakr is same lispguy 2015-07-19T16:10:16Z jackdaniel: how childish 2015-07-19T16:10:35Z cohakr: hi all 2015-07-19T16:10:37Z theos: H4ns to make things clear, i didnt change the topic. it was a /me 2015-07-19T16:10:39Z H4ns: jackdaniel: you might be so close to the truth. 2015-07-19T16:11:02Z H4ns: theos: thank you for explaining it again! i appreciate it! 2015-07-19T16:11:12Z cohakr: hi all 2015-07-19T16:11:14Z cohakr: hi all 2015-07-19T16:11:15Z cohakr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T16:11:16Z jackdaniel: why topic is accessible by ordinary users anyway? 2015-07-19T16:11:27Z H4ns: jackdaniel: because most people are good people 2015-07-19T16:11:29Z Xach: jackdaniel: It has not been much of an issue for 15 years. 2015-07-19T16:11:50Z jackdaniel: ok, both arguments are perfeclty valid 2015-07-19T16:12:01Z theos changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1 2015-07-19T16:12:06Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@www.nisys.be 2015-07-19T16:12:19Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:12:20Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-19T16:12:47Z p_l: jackdaniel: it's due to using topic for announcements 2015-07-19T16:12:57Z sebbee joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:13:04Z sebbee: is sourceforge down for anyone else? 2015-07-19T16:13:19Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:14:03Z p_l: sebbee: sourceforge as a whole is dead - their storage arrays uptime gone like tears in the rain 2015-07-19T16:14:05Z jackdaniel: sebbee: it's down since yesterday, or even day more 2015-07-19T16:14:37Z sebbee: well that's unfortunate for my sbcl installation efforts 2015-07-19T16:14:47Z p_l: yeah 2015-07-19T16:15:10Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T16:15:49Z joel135 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:16:09Z p_l: also, at this rate, we might need a ban-tracking not 2015-07-19T16:16:49Z lambda-smith: sebbee: Sourceforge is accessible to me 2015-07-19T16:17:00Z marekk: lambda-smith: it's in static mode afaik 2015-07-19T16:17:19Z lambda-smith: marekk: really? so the effort to kill it has paid off? 2015-07-19T16:17:30Z marekk: who tried to kill it? 2015-07-19T16:17:33Z lambda-smith: but what about sbcl? 2015-07-19T16:17:47Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T16:18:07Z p_l: they pulled a killswitch on themselves when they laid off old staff 2015-07-19T16:18:15Z lambda-smith: marekk: there was a lot of uproar when people were aware that sf bundle adware with the installer and hijack project websites 2015-07-19T16:18:16Z b_ joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:18:38Z schjetne: Didn't they start injecting malware years ago? I've always wondered why it took so long. 2015-07-19T16:19:04Z therik: whoah, I see quad trees are nice simple option, but it seems like if I have full map of items, and I have items that span more than one tile and I can have multiple items per tile... The whole tree is gonna be big 2015-07-19T16:19:10Z dafunktion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T16:19:20Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:19:23Z lambda-smith: this seems like a good summary of the (latest) incident http://www.infoworld.com/article/2929732/open-source-software/sourceforge-commits-reputational-suicide.html 2015-07-19T16:19:34Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-19T16:19:48Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T16:21:53Z p_l: joel135: you need to quote it like '(1 2 3) or (quote (1 2 3)) 2015-07-19T16:22:42Z sebbee: thanks for the link lambda-smith 2015-07-19T16:23:24Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:24:00Z p_l: minion: tell joel135 about pcl 2015-07-19T16:24:00Z minion: joel135: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-19T16:24:11Z beach: p_l: Was that remark as a result of a PM? 2015-07-19T16:24:25Z p_l: good resource if you program already in another language 2015-07-19T16:24:46Z beach: p_l: I don't see any uttering by joel135. 2015-07-19T16:25:11Z lambda-smith: Pardon my ignorant, but who is lemonodor? 2015-07-19T16:25:16Z p_l: beach: it was lost in talk about sourceforge 2015-07-19T16:25:25Z lambda-smith: Saw his name in the SLIME's start quote 2015-07-19T16:25:27Z p_l: lambda-smith: a famed lisp blogger 2015-07-19T16:25:55Z lambda-smith: p_l: I see, it seems that he is no longer active, is he? 2015-07-19T16:26:10Z lambda-smith: Also, did he worked on any projects? 2015-07-19T16:27:20Z p_l: lambda-smith: the quote is related to how it used to be that the major way of getting publicity about your project was to be mentioned on lemonodor 2015-07-19T16:27:50Z lambda-smith: p_l: Oh, I see 2015-07-19T16:28:02Z lambda-smith: Thanks for the context, p_l! 2015-07-19T16:28:10Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T16:28:25Z marekk quit (Quit: If I were a rich man) 2015-07-19T16:28:42Z lambda-smith: Too bad he seems to be no longer active 2015-07-19T16:29:22Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T16:29:40Z sebbee: but i am active :) 2015-07-19T16:29:45Z lambda-smith: :D 2015-07-19T16:32:59Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T16:35:10Z sebbee: i have yet to make progress on lisp 2015-07-19T16:37:15Z p_l: as for where bottom feeders come in - there was a project that got linked from HN 2015-07-19T16:38:20Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T16:39:03Z p_l: btw, about sourceforge issues: https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/3do9k0/sourceforge_is_down_due_to_storage_problems_no_eta/ct77o49 2015-07-19T16:40:31Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:41:00Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-19T16:43:17Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T16:45:00Z lambda-smith: p_l: Oh my God, that's a nightmare 2015-07-19T16:51:05Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-19T16:54:12Z Guest70392 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-19T17:04:15Z akkad ponders why any project would still use sf 2015-07-19T17:05:53Z lambda-smith: akkad: SBCL is still on sf, though 2015-07-19T17:05:59Z lambda-smith: as well as Maxima too, I think 2015-07-19T17:06:17Z lambda-smith: Oh wow: http://www.sbcl.org/ 2015-07-19T17:06:27Z lambda-smith: You can't even reach SBCL right now 2015-07-19T17:06:49Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:07:16Z lambda-smith: Maxima as well, 2015-07-19T17:08:47Z jackdaniel: akkad: changing hosting involves a lot of burden 2015-07-19T17:09:09Z k-stz: What is the meaning of the exclamation mark as a naming convention: (foo! 1 2) etc. ? 2015-07-19T17:09:37Z jackdaniel: it is schemism, it hints program reader, that it is destructive function 2015-07-19T17:10:08Z jackdaniel: and (foo? 1 2) indicates, that it's predicate 2015-07-19T17:10:27Z k-stz: thanks 2015-07-19T17:10:30Z jackdaniel: CL uses (foo-p 1 2) for latter, while former would be (nfoo 1 2) 2015-07-19T17:10:45Z jackdaniel: but it's convention, I personally find ? and ! more appealing and readable 2015-07-19T17:11:01Z k-stz: nfoo looks bad, I think nobody follows this convention outside the standard function? 2015-07-19T17:11:08Z Brucio-92 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:11:13Z jackdaniel: you're probably right 2015-07-19T17:11:20Z Brucio-92 is now known as beslyrus 2015-07-19T17:11:35Z Bike: it's also not terribly consistent, hence no nappend 2015-07-19T17:11:36Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-19T17:11:39Z k-stz: also the "n" hasn't even a meaningful mnemonic iir pcl correctly 2015-07-19T17:12:13Z jackdaniel: if you start project from scratch, you won't infridge consistency if you'll use "?" and "!" 2015-07-19T17:13:00Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:15:12Z akkad: sourceforget.net is the place to stay then :P 2015-07-19T17:16:01Z ghost_runner joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:17:44Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T17:18:54Z ghost_runner: On a scale from one to ten, rank SICP. Just curious as to what you Lispers think about the book. 2015-07-19T17:19:09Z Bike: nine 2015-07-19T17:19:28Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:19:49Z ghost_runner: Hmmm... What prevents it from being a ten for you? 2015-07-19T17:19:56Z bitwiggler joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:20:23Z Bike: habitual distrust of perfect ratings 2015-07-19T17:20:32Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-19T17:20:41Z k-stz: don't find the time to read it; still at chapter 2 2015-07-19T17:20:54Z k-stz: the video lectures are nice 2015-07-19T17:25:43Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:26:34Z ghost_runner: Bike: That being your only reason? :P 2015-07-19T17:26:48Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-19T17:28:16Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-19T17:28:36Z k-stz: from just the first chapter it taught me stuff im grateful to know. I think the problem with rating a book like sicp is to weigh the didactic representation of knowledge with the knowledge present in the book. 2015-07-19T17:29:42Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:30:41Z k-stz: "What knowledge does the book teach" "how well does it teach it" 2015-07-19T17:30:58Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-19T17:31:50Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:31:55Z jasom has never read SICP 2015-07-19T17:32:39Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T17:33:54Z jebes: read it. 2015-07-19T17:34:04Z jebes: now. 2015-07-19T17:34:08Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T17:34:59Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:35:21Z ghost_runner: jebes: What do you think? :P 2015-07-19T17:35:32Z Bike: don't need to be pushy 2015-07-19T17:36:24Z ghost_runner: wat 2015-07-19T17:36:31Z wat: yes? 2015-07-19T17:36:39Z wat: :) 2015-07-19T17:37:39Z Akshay_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T17:37:48Z ghost_runner: lol 2015-07-19T17:37:50Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:42:24Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T17:42:40Z clique: critical reading 2015-07-19T17:44:54Z DrWat: wat 2015-07-19T17:44:56Z walter|r joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:45:04Z bitwiggler quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-19T17:47:22Z backupthrick joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:50:51Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-19T17:50:59Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:53:27Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-19T17:53:58Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T17:56:06Z pgomes left #lisp 2015-07-19T18:00:19Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-07-19T18:00:26Z bitwiggler joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:02:58Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T18:02:58Z digiorgi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T18:03:30Z joel135 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T18:04:13Z b_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T18:04:37Z bitwiggler quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T18:05:00Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:05:25Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:06:56Z ghost_runner left #lisp 2015-07-19T18:07:07Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:10:37Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:14:23Z b_ joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:17:11Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:24:01Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:25:59Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:28:59Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:33:24Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T18:40:10Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:43:01Z phf: is david lichteblau still maintaining closure-html? is there official fork that quicklisp is pulling from? i have a lot of patches, that i produced as a result of running closure-html against a lot of html from the wild, and i'm not quite sure who to send them to 2015-07-19T18:46:14Z PuercoPop: phf: you could always check in https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/ to see where it is being pulled from 2015-07-19T18:46:21Z rstone joined #lisp 2015-07-19T18:47:30Z PuercoPop: it appears david lichteblau is still maintaining it 2015-07-19T18:51:28Z phf: ok 2015-07-19T18:52:09Z phf: come to think of it, i haven't actually tried simply emailing him 2015-07-19T18:53:23Z ziocroc2 is now known as ziocroc 2015-07-19T18:54:21Z sebbee: u should try that 2015-07-19T18:55:43Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-19T19:00:07Z fighter39 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:00:31Z b_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T19:02:06Z sebbee quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T19:03:44Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T19:03:50Z oleo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T19:06:27Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T19:08:36Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:11:32Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:11:32Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-19T19:11:32Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:12:57Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:13:01Z therik: any way to put q-trees into an array? 2015-07-19T19:13:21Z therik: uh, now I'm thinking, it's dumb, cause it's not balanced tree 2015-07-19T19:14:19Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-19T19:16:01Z therik: any other way to efficiently store q-tree nodes, that wouldn't involve keeping all the pointers around, together with info about sizes/levels/positions? 2015-07-19T19:18:46Z therik: I mean, there's this trick with keeping balanced binary tree in an array, where parent node is (floor (/ i 2) and children are on (1+ (* 2 i)) and (+ 2 (* 2 i)), I wonder if there are some tricks for q-trees 2015-07-19T19:20:52Z ggole: q-trees being quad trees? 2015-07-19T19:24:10Z clique: adopting bthta notation an o-tree is an hilbert q-tree 2015-07-19T19:24:55Z clique: that, uff 2015-07-19T19:25:31Z therik: ggole, yes 2015-07-19T19:27:46Z ggole: I think you can use the skip trick to represent n-ary trees without pointers (at the expense of making insertions difficult) 2015-07-19T19:28:14Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-19T19:28:56Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:28:58Z ggole: The idea is that you represent a tree node as whatever info it contains, plus the offset to the next sibling 2015-07-19T19:29:12Z ggole: Children are simply the next thing in memory. 2015-07-19T19:31:02Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:34:16Z therik: yaix, that doesn't sound very convenient 2015-07-19T19:34:38Z ggole: Traversals are easy, insertions... 2015-07-19T19:34:41Z ggole: Don't ask about insertions. 2015-07-19T19:35:35Z therik: to get to children and siblings would be ok, to get to parent I'd have to move back until I hit something that has pointer to sibling that's after the element I search the parent for 2015-07-19T19:36:09Z ggole: Or always maintain a stack of positions 2015-07-19T19:36:16Z ggole: Which may or may not be possible. 2015-07-19T19:37:56Z therik: honestly, I'm not quite sure what I need yet, but I'm aiming for a self-expanding map that can potentially get huge, and the first task I decided to tackle was to find set of entities on the map in certain radius from a given point 2015-07-19T19:38:53Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:39:07Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T19:39:34Z ggole: That suggests kd-tree 2015-07-19T19:39:55Z not_tfl quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-19T19:40:23Z ggole: I suppose quadtrees would also work 2015-07-19T19:43:23Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:43:31Z francogrex quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-19T19:43:33Z fighter39 quit 2015-07-19T19:45:13Z pjb`: Bike: it should have been twelve. 2015-07-19T19:47:57Z pjb`: therik: so you will add objects in your map at the bacterial level, then at the atomic level, then at the string level? 2015-07-19T19:48:32Z sepi joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:48:55Z pjb`: therik: there's also #lispgame where you can discuss game implementation strategies. 2015-07-19T19:53:35Z ggole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T19:54:52Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-19T19:56:56Z admg joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:57:33Z therik: pjb, seems like that.. well, at the beginning, all the map is going to be empty, once bit of it is generated, that portion should get indexed. I'll have small tiles, probably 10x10 pixels. Right now, tiles are in leaves of the tree, but I'm thinking of splitting the info from tiles into tree nodes 2015-07-19T19:58:12Z pjb`: Sorry, #lispgames 2015-07-19T19:58:38Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-19T19:59:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-19T19:59:43Z pjb`: therik: I mean, you should decide from the start the granularity of your game. If you have a grid of 1 meter², then your quadtree will have cells corresponding to 1 meter², and you won't be able to put billions of objects in that square. 2015-07-19T20:00:00Z pjb`: therik: now, if you discover another continent, you just add a new quad tree. 2015-07-19T20:00:03Z pjb`: or another planet. 2015-07-19T20:00:32Z pjb`: Remember, planets means moving body, and continents move relative one to another (plaque tectonics). 2015-07-19T20:00:50Z joel135 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:04:08Z therik: I'm not really implementing moving continents 2015-07-19T20:04:27Z pjb`: In anycase, you wouldn't grow your tree from the leaves, but from the root. So you could have two levels, one a small quadtree of quadtrees where you use normal nodes with pointers, and big quadtrees of objects of fixed size that you store in arrays without pointers. 2015-07-19T20:06:29Z therik: anyway, this is just fun project for exploring the map mechanics, so I might implement more than one granularity and more than one tree in the end.. 2015-07-19T20:06:31Z pjb`: But once you use arrays for quadtrees, basically you have pre-allocated the whole square, so why still using trees? Just use a 2D array of coordinates? 2015-07-19T20:07:36Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:08:16Z pjb`: So you'd have a usual quad-tree with pointers and dynamic memory, so you save memory space where you have empty areas, and you'd use 2D array for densely populated areas. A quad-tree of densely populated-areas of objects. 2015-07-19T20:09:51Z pjb`: What's for sure, is that you want to abstract away this storage, so the rest of the game is not affected when you change/optimize it. 2015-07-19T20:11:08Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:13:22Z prince_jammys joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:15:20Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T20:15:32Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T20:16:00Z prince_j1mmys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-19T20:16:44Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:20:20Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:20:57Z Carisius joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:24:06Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:24:07Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T20:24:11Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T20:25:10Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:31:01Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:31:59Z bertro quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T20:33:52Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:34:56Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:36:09Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:40:37Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T20:43:07Z prince_jammys quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T20:43:17Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-07-19T20:43:22Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-19T20:43:24Z Carisius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T20:43:39Z prince_jammys joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:44:26Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:44:53Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-19T20:45:19Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:45:29Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T20:46:54Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:48:18Z prince_jammys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T20:48:40Z prince_jammys joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:48:49Z bitwiggler joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:51:53Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T20:54:57Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-19T20:55:07Z davidurman joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:55:51Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-19T20:57:28Z davidurman: hello! is the sbcl's repository on github the proper place to send patches? as i can see threre are 7 opened pull requests one year old. 2015-07-19T20:58:16Z Shinmera: It's a mirror, so no. 2015-07-19T20:58:28Z Shinmera: SBCL's home is on SourceForge, which is currently indefinitely down. 2015-07-19T20:58:31Z Shinmera: So that might change. 2015-07-19T20:59:07Z mlrutherford: GitHub needs to be their official host site 2015-07-19T20:59:48Z eazar_hardwork joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:00:06Z davidurman: Shinmera: hm, but why do they use github if it's useless to send pull request? 2015-07-19T21:00:49Z davidurman: just to read-only? it's not clever at least 2015-07-19T21:00:56Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:01:26Z Shinmera: It's a mirror. 2015-07-19T21:01:34Z mlrutherford: davidurman, its a mirror/backup 2015-07-19T21:02:08Z davidurman: i see, so where can i send patches then? 2015-07-19T21:02:39Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:03:13Z davidurman: and how about to place the info about mirror to github to prevent confusing users which may want to send pull requests? 2015-07-19T21:04:04Z mlrutherford: Anyone know if Mezzano is still being developed? 2015-07-19T21:04:52Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T21:06:18Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:08:57Z joel135 left #lisp 2015-07-19T21:10:15Z davidurman: mlrutherford: isn't it died like BeOS? 2015-07-19T21:12:09Z admg quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-07-19T21:12:37Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:13:17Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:13:27Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:13:30Z mlrutherford: BeOS is alive in the form of Haiku OS 2015-07-19T21:13:39Z mlrutherford: my highschool actually used Haiku extensively 2015-07-19T21:13:57Z davidurman: cool story 2015-07-19T21:14:04Z davidurman: but it's died, i'm sorry 2015-07-19T21:14:25Z davidurman: c++ suck to write os 2015-07-19T21:14:28Z scymtym_: davidurman: your best bet is sending patches to the sbcl-devel mailing-list or opening issues with attached patches in the launchpad issue tracker 2015-07-19T21:14:48Z davidurman: scymtym_: thanks 2015-07-19T21:14:57Z mlrutherford: davidurman, how so? Performance didnt suffer. As and end-user it barely made a dent on anything. 2015-07-19T21:15:19Z mlrutherford: though i will say C is infinitely better 2015-07-19T21:15:40Z davidurman: scymtym_: how to obtain access to repo for direct committing? 2015-07-19T21:16:02Z aeth: I wonder how much of the problem of C++ is C++ itself and how much of the problem is the culture, which seems to like very long functions with cryptic variable names (at least based on the source code I've seen online). 2015-07-19T21:16:58Z scymtym_: davidurman: i cannot speak with authority for the sbcl project but i think the rule of thumb is to submit useful patches for a couple of months and eventually ask for commit access 2015-07-19T21:18:05Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:18:16Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:19:21Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T21:22:19Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T21:22:28Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:22:38Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:27:20Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:27:36Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:28:11Z therik quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T21:29:04Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-19T21:29:35Z Spinfuzor joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:29:50Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:30:04Z davidurman quit 2015-07-19T21:32:08Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:32:18Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:33:27Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T21:35:05Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-19T21:36:22Z j4cknewt joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:36:34Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:36:45Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:36:46Z pjb`: mlrutherford: until a wide scale catastrophic failure of github. 2015-07-19T21:36:56Z pjb`: centralization is a bad idea. 2015-07-19T21:37:11Z pjb`: The D in DCVS means DISTRIBUTED, not CENTRALIZED. 2015-07-19T21:37:21Z mlrutherford: yeah, i spread projects out across multiple sources 2015-07-19T21:37:52Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:38:34Z MasterPiece quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:39:16Z pjb`: On the other hand, if you wrote (in Common Lisp) a way to define "holohosts" for storage of web sites and general file storage (repositories), such as the data is stored in a hologram storage distributed across all the hosts participating in this system, that could be something you would rely on. 2015-07-19T21:41:21Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:41:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:41:41Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:42:08Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:43:33Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T21:43:49Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-19T21:43:58Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T21:44:17Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:46:12Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:46:24Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:47:27Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T21:47:56Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-19T21:48:38Z yaewa joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:49:27Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:50:23Z moei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T21:51:00Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:51:10Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:55:25Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T21:55:36Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:56:07Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:56:37Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T21:56:46Z doesthiswork: I just found the oddest thing (member 1 (list 12)) => (1 2) 2015-07-19T21:56:50Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:56:51Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:57:00Z doesthiswork: while (member 1 (list 12)) => NIL 2015-07-19T21:57:21Z RatelDev joined #lisp 2015-07-19T21:57:34Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, etc.) 2015-07-19T21:57:39Z Bike: ^P? 2015-07-19T21:58:09Z doesthiswork: I cannot see the difference but copy and paste preserves the difference 2015-07-19T21:58:31Z Bike: there's a ^P between the 1 and 2 in the first one. 2015-07-19T21:58:41Z doesthiswork: ok thank you 2015-07-19T22:00:12Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:00:30Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:00:56Z doesthiswork: it was a very mystifying bug 2015-07-19T22:01:05Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-19T22:05:03Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:05:17Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:06:17Z RatelDev quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-19T22:06:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-19T22:07:01Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-19T22:07:41Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-19T22:09:32Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:09:43Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:11:48Z good joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:12:20Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-19T22:13:18Z good: need some information and to start some conversation... im looking for a web framework with some cms capabilities/extensions, and fairly active development. suggestions? 2015-07-19T22:13:27Z good: in lisp of course 2015-07-19T22:14:24Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:14:41Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:15:56Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-19T22:16:00Z mc40 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:17:25Z good quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-19T22:17:25Z akersof quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T22:17:35Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:18:28Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-19T22:18:33Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:18:40Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T22:19:00Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:19:11Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:19:24Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:19:43Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T22:21:24Z christoph_debian quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T22:21:31Z pjb`: good: go to http://cliki.net/ type web in the search box, type RET. 2015-07-19T22:23:59Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:24:29Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:28:22Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:28:28Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T22:28:35Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:29:17Z christoph_debian joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:33:13Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:33:26Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:33:34Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:34:19Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T22:34:23Z safinask1r joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:34:38Z safinask1r: consider program (f 1 2) 2015-07-19T22:34:41Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:34:46Z safinask1r: how (f 1 2) is called? list, right? 2015-07-19T22:35:03Z Bike: What do you mean "how is called"? 2015-07-19T22:35:35Z dim: vocabulary question, I think 2015-07-19T22:35:38Z dim: safinask1r: a form 2015-07-19T22:36:11Z dim: safinask1r: or more generally an s-expression, some s-expressions are Common Lisp forms 2015-07-19T22:36:26Z safinask1r: dim: so, program (+ (* 2 2) 4) has two forms, right? 2015-07-19T22:36:47Z dim: it's a single form that contains another one (nested), I would say 2015-07-19T22:37:06Z dim: and your term "program" here isn't well defined (for me at least) 2015-07-19T22:37:16Z Bike: clhs form/g 2015-07-19T22:37:16Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for form/g. 2015-07-19T22:37:23Z Bike: i forget how it works. 2015-07-19T22:37:24Z dim: clhs program 2015-07-19T22:37:24Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for program. 2015-07-19T22:37:26Z dim: clhs firm 2015-07-19T22:37:26Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for firm. 2015-07-19T22:37:29Z dim: clhs form 2015-07-19T22:37:29Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for form. 2015-07-19T22:37:30Z dim: sorry 2015-07-19T22:37:46Z Bike: it's in the glossary somewhere, i just forget how to direct link. 2015-07-19T22:37:54Z dim: l1sp.org then 2015-07-19T22:38:05Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:38:10Z Bike: «form n. 1. any object meant to be evaluated. 2. a symbol, a compound form, or a self-evaluating object. 3. (for an operator, as in ``<<operator>> form'') a compound form having that operator as its first element. ``A quote form is a constant form.'' » 2015-07-19T22:38:12Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T22:38:17Z dim: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#form 2015-07-19T22:38:19Z Bike: pretty much everything is a form 2015-07-19T22:38:20Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:39:04Z dim: well you still need matching parens and some basics like that IIRC 2015-07-19T22:39:50Z dim: anyway I should be sleeping now, gn! 2015-07-19T22:42:34Z Rav3n joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:42:34Z Rav3n quit (Changing host) 2015-07-19T22:42:34Z Rav3n joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:42:52Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:43:02Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:46:22Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:46:55Z safinask1r: is (list + 1 2) a valid program? 2015-07-19T22:47:13Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:47:23Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:47:52Z williamyao: Assuming + is bound to a value, yes. 2015-07-19T22:48:14Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:48:31Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:50:11Z mncoder left #lisp 2015-07-19T22:50:19Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:51:58Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:52:20Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:53:31Z akersof quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-19T22:53:42Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:54:16Z akkad: is there a portable package for background process/thread management? 2015-07-19T22:54:37Z mncoder quit (Quit: Killed (alexs (Requested by panasync))) 2015-07-19T22:54:43Z Cthulhux` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-19T22:55:09Z akkad: on sbcl 2015-07-19T22:55:12Z bitwiggler: akkad: try LW, sbcl site is down, a bad sign the project is no longer managed 2015-07-19T22:55:54Z bitwiggler: for documentation 2015-07-19T22:56:02Z akkad: clhs might have something 2015-07-19T22:56:50Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T22:56:51Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T22:57:03Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:57:03Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:57:30Z cross joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:57:33Z mood: akkad: Take a look at Bordeaux-Threads: http://cliki.net/Bordeaux-Threads 2015-07-19T22:57:46Z bitwiggler: well like hunchentoot running in the background. 2015-07-19T22:57:54Z bitwiggler: in the repl being able to do job control 2015-07-19T22:58:10Z mood: bitwiggler: The SBCL site is down because sourcefore is having problems. The SBCL project is still very much alive 2015-07-19T22:58:14Z prince_j1mmys joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:58:50Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-19T22:59:07Z prince_jammys quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T23:00:07Z mtd joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:00:26Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:00:31Z ukitukimuki joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:01:38Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:01:42Z mncoder quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-19T23:01:49Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:02:07Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:02:40Z ukitukimuki changed the topic of #lisp to: hello, world! 2015-07-19T23:03:06Z ukitukimuki: hi :) 2015-07-19T23:03:18Z mncoder: Hello 2015-07-19T23:03:22Z mlrutherford: hiya 2015-07-19T23:04:44Z mood changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1 2015-07-19T23:05:22Z ukitukimuki: wow 2015-07-19T23:05:47Z mtd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:06:04Z ukitukimuki quit 2015-07-19T23:06:05Z eazar_hardwork quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-19T23:06:05Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:06:14Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:07:14Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:10:51Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:11:01Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:12:27Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:12:33Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T23:12:46Z prince_j1mmys quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-19T23:14:29Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-19T23:14:43Z prince_jammys joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:15:43Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:15:57Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:18:49Z j4cknewt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:20:30Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:20:41Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:24:30Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-19T23:24:52Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:25:03Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:26:04Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:29:41Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:30:02Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:32:44Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:34:10Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:34:32Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:35:02Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:36:11Z safinask1r left #lisp 2015-07-19T23:36:14Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-19T23:37:43Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-19T23:39:18Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:39:31Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:43:18Z mncoder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-19T23:43:42Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:43:54Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:46:40Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:48:43Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-19T23:48:50Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:49:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:50:42Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-19T23:52:35Z huserl joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:53:23Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:53:36Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-19T23:58:11Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-19T23:58:37Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:02:46Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:03:03Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:06:57Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T00:07:18Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:07:29Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:07:30Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:10:24Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T00:11:01Z aeth: Besides (obviously) the slightly cleaner syntax macros have, what's the difference in most use cases for macros between a macro and just having a lambda as the last argument? 2015-07-20T00:11:19Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:11:23Z Bike: you mean continuation passing style? 2015-07-20T00:12:09Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:12:23Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:13:10Z mtd joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:13:21Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:16:54Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:17:23Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:18:28Z clog joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:18:40Z aeth: oh wow I guess I really worded my question wrong 2015-07-20T00:19:05Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:19:19Z pjb`: aeth: you mean, what's the difference between ME writing code, and the COMPUTER writing code? 2015-07-20T00:19:45Z pjb`: The computer writes code faster, and with less errors than myself. 2015-07-20T00:21:31Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:21:47Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:22:21Z bitwiggler: akkad any luck? 2015-07-20T00:23:02Z bitwiggler: not with sbcl, but the others work just fine. so thanks 2015-07-20T00:25:35Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:26:19Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:26:35Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:26:35Z akkad: you get what you pay for 2015-07-20T00:31:02Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:31:09Z emanuelz quit (Quit: emanuelz) 2015-07-20T00:31:25Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:34:37Z not_tfl joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:35:35Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:35:53Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:37:47Z luis: aeth: yeah, there's a category of macros that are doing just that. Sometimes the functional version is more useful. E.g., mapc vs dolist. 2015-07-20T00:39:11Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:40:27Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:40:39Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:42:08Z Guthur: the dolist results form does not really make them equivalent 2015-07-20T00:42:46Z luis: A minor detail. :-) 2015-07-20T00:44:09Z Guthur: yep, granted 2015-07-20T00:44:29Z luis: (also there's the thing that dolist doesn't guarantee a new binding per iteration) 2015-07-20T00:45:00Z luis: That one's bitten me once or twice. 2015-07-20T00:45:16Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:45:38Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:45:40Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:45:50Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:49:37Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:49:47Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:54:26Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:54:47Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:54:54Z fe[nl]ix: luis: thanks for cl-travis. I just used it for a few libraries 2015-07-20T00:55:05Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:59:12Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-20T00:59:17Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T00:59:29Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:00:23Z keen__________25 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T01:01:39Z LiamH: luis: What do you think about putting a mutex on *cif-table* so compilation is thread-safe? https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1474211 2015-07-20T01:01:42Z keen__________25 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:03:06Z fe[nl]ix: LiamH: why does foreign-funcall modify that variable ? 2015-07-20T01:03:44Z luis: LiamH: I just came back from vacation, tomorrow I'll start looking at all those bugs Bart submitted. :-) 2015-07-20T01:04:03Z LiamH: fe[nl]ix: let me look 2015-07-20T01:04:04Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T01:04:15Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:04:25Z LiamH: luis: OK, I've done a quick pass over them, some are puzzling. 2015-07-20T01:05:15Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T01:05:32Z LiamH: fe[nl]ix: foreign functions passed to libffi need to be prepared. This is done the first time they are called, and the result is placed in the table so the next call it is ready to go. 2015-07-20T01:06:59Z fe[nl]ix: can it be avoided somehow ? it looks bad for performance and thread-safety 2015-07-20T01:07:36Z LiamH: fe[nl]ix: bad for performance? 2015-07-20T01:07:46Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:07:58Z doesthiswork quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-20T01:08:05Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:08:25Z luis: LiamH: these CIF objects are reused based on the type signatures IIRC, right? 2015-07-20T01:08:28Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T01:08:39Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:08:48Z LiamH: luis: yes, I think that's right. 2015-07-20T01:09:09Z LiamH: type signatures and the function pointer itself. 2015-07-20T01:09:21Z fe[nl]ix: can't the preparation be done at load-time ? 2015-07-20T01:09:41Z luis: Yes, probably. 2015-07-20T01:09:42Z mncoder quit (Quit: [BX] The Borg use BitchX. It will be assimilated. Shouldn't you?) 2015-07-20T01:09:47Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T01:09:48Z LiamH: yes, it could, at the expense of possibly prepping unneeded/unused functions 2015-07-20T01:10:02Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:11:18Z luis: If the cache depends on the function pointer, perhaps the cache can be placed in the call site. (cl-opengl does something like that) 2015-07-20T01:11:25Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:11:48Z LiamH: luis: what do you mean by placed in the call site? 2015-07-20T01:13:17Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T01:13:29Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:14:01Z luis: LiamH: I learned that trick from a blog post Nikodemus wrote a couple of years ago. Let me try and find it. 2015-07-20T01:14:11Z Bike: what cl-opengl does is something like (defun whatever-gl-function (...) (compile 'whatever-gl-function ...) (whatever-gl-function ...)), though 2015-07-20T01:14:19Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:14:40Z luis: LiamH: http://random-state.net/log/3507100003.html 2015-07-20T01:15:46Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T01:15:54Z LiamH: Is that better than a hash table? 2015-07-20T01:16:56Z luis: Bike: I guess I was thinking about this alternative: https://github.com/3b/cl-opengl/blob/master/gl/bindings.lisp#L143 2015-07-20T01:17:08Z LiamH: I'll confess I don't understand load-time-value. 2015-07-20T01:17:16Z luis: LiamH: probably! 2015-07-20T01:17:34Z LiamH: luis: Is it thread-safe? 2015-07-20T01:17:41Z les quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-20T01:18:04Z mncoder quit (Quit: BitchX: now a major feature film) 2015-07-20T01:18:06Z ghard```` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T01:18:25Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:19:09Z Bike: is it okay to call prepare-function on the same thing twice? 2015-07-20T01:19:18Z LiamH: Bike: yes 2015-07-20T01:19:25Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T01:19:35Z luis: LiamH: does it leak though? 2015-07-20T01:19:40Z fe[nl]ix: luis: the problem is that we can't rely portably on a compiler honoring the INLINE declaration 2015-07-20T01:19:52Z LiamH: luis: Leak? 2015-07-20T01:20:25Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:20:48Z LiamH: Bike: In fact, prepare-function will look up the function, if it's already there, will return value. Like a memoization. 2015-07-20T01:21:03Z fe[nl]ix: luis: although since foreign-funcall is already a macro, we can do an inline cache anyway 2015-07-20T01:21:13Z luis: fe[nl]ix: exactly. 2015-07-20T01:21:54Z luis: fe[nl]ix: I guess we don't need load-time-value in this case. :) Nevermind. 2015-07-20T01:22:43Z fe[nl]ix goes to sleep 2015-07-20T01:22:44Z luis: LiamH: oh, sorry, I was already pondering the scenario where *cif-table* was gone. 2015-07-20T01:22:46Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:23:21Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-20T01:24:05Z luis: LiamH: it's late. :) let's continue this discussion via launchpad tomorrow. 2015-07-20T01:24:16Z LiamH: No launchpad account. 2015-07-20T01:24:21Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-20T01:24:27Z LiamH: Mailing list OK. 2015-07-20T01:24:37Z LiamH: Or github. 2015-07-20T01:26:37Z luis: LiamH: FWIW, I believe you can log in with a Google account, for instance. 2015-07-20T01:26:48Z LiamH: Oh 2015-07-20T01:28:25Z LiamH: OK, discuss tomorrow. 2015-07-20T01:28:34Z mncoder quit (Quit: BitchX: more nutritious than a six-pack.) 2015-07-20T01:28:36Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T01:29:13Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-20T01:32:07Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:33:43Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:35:47Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-20T01:37:05Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-20T01:37:17Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:37:26Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-07-20T01:37:26Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:37:26Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-07-20T01:37:26Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:37:59Z gabriel_laddel quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-20T01:38:34Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:39:19Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-20T01:40:29Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:49:22Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:49:37Z mncoder quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-20T01:52:01Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:52:48Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:56:16Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-20T01:56:16Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T02:00:14Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:01:05Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:01:18Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:06:26Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-07-20T02:07:28Z mncoder quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-20T02:11:49Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:12:51Z mncoder quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-20T02:13:34Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:15:37Z sepi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T02:16:08Z sepi joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:16:14Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-20T02:20:23Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:26:41Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:28:46Z mncoder quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-20T02:29:12Z mncoder joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:30:26Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:34:09Z gernika joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:38:33Z rritoch: Are functions and variables supposed to have their own namespace? It seems odd that I can have both a function named some-sym and a variable named some-sym in the same namespace. 2015-07-20T02:39:00Z loke: rritoch: why is that odd? 2015-07-20T02:39:41Z loke: Most other programming languages behave the same. 2015-07-20T02:40:59Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:41:06Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-20T02:41:16Z loke: Hello beachz0r 2015-07-20T02:41:29Z rritoch: loke: Notably C and Javascript use the same namespace for functions and variables. 2015-07-20T02:42:01Z rritoch: loke: Anyhow, thanks. I'm using ABCL and not entirely confident with it's level of conformance. 2015-07-20T02:42:16Z Bike: do you have an example you think is nonconforming? 2015-07-20T02:42:21Z rritoch: Is there a conformance test app? Something you can run on an implementation to test its conformance? 2015-07-20T02:42:35Z beach: There is the ANSI test suite. 2015-07-20T02:42:52Z loke: rritoch: Right, but FORTRAN, Pascal, Basic, Erlang, ADA, Perl, Ruby (I think), etc, doesn't 2015-07-20T02:43:22Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/ansi-cl-tests 2015-07-20T02:43:23Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:43:39Z loke: rritoch: Just assume thta if you belive that it doesn't conform, you'r very likely wrong. At least until you gain a goo dunderstanding of CL. 2015-07-20T02:43:46Z rritoch: beach: Thanks. At least that will give me some "peace of mind'. 2015-07-20T02:44:10Z loke: (and I should learn to put the spaces in the right place) 2015-07-20T02:44:28Z beach: Another standard trick would be to compare what it does to what some other implementation does. 2015-07-20T02:45:57Z beach: loke: I just read a book that says that the origin of "ni" is "haven i" where the space was wrong. So you are in good company. 2015-07-20T02:47:12Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:48:16Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-20T02:49:23Z rritoch: I think once someone has done enough typing, their fingers just take on a life of their own. Spaces and letter transposings are one effect, but there have been times when I've thought one thing, and typed something completely different. Of course I could just be insane *evilgrin* 2015-07-20T02:49:56Z beach: nyef: Any progress on NQ-CLIM? 2015-07-20T02:50:06Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-20T02:50:10Z nyef: Do indirect inks count? 2015-07-20T02:50:17Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-20T02:50:40Z creepingcreeper joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:50:41Z nyef: I haven't really taken the time yet to figure out CLX event handling, so I'm somewhat scrambling for small things to do in the meantime. 2015-07-20T02:50:44Z creepingcreeper: Why is Lisp called a hacker's language? Is it that good? 2015-07-20T02:51:17Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-20T02:51:27Z beach: nyef: Do you need to have multi-thread behavior figured out before continuing? 2015-07-20T02:51:43Z beach: Otherwise, CLX event handling is nothing particularly difficult. 2015-07-20T02:51:51Z beach: If you have questions, I might be able to help. 2015-07-20T02:52:03Z beach: ... with emphasis on MIGHT. 2015-07-20T02:52:11Z beach: creepingcreeper: It is very good, yes. 2015-07-20T02:52:36Z loke: creepingcreeper: yes 2015-07-20T02:52:53Z rritoch: creepingcreeper: There are two different meanings for hacker. The public definition referrs to e-criminals, but "old" developers, like myself, consider hacking as making small changes to applications for making better systems. 2015-07-20T02:53:14Z nyef: I have to know how it is all going to fit together, at least roughly, before I can really build it. 2015-07-20T02:53:38Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:53:43Z nyef: rritoch: But don't forget that one of the most widely-distributed pieces of malware included a Scheme interpreter. 2015-07-20T02:53:46Z beach: Sure. Just saying. If you need to discuss CLX event handling, I have used it several times. 2015-07-20T02:54:37Z nyef: I've pored over the CLX input logic myself a time or two, but thank you for the offer. 2015-07-20T02:54:43Z beach: OK. 2015-07-20T02:55:05Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T02:55:22Z beach: nyef: And I do think the best CLX manual around is the one on bauhh 2015-07-20T02:55:32Z nyef: Oh? 2015-07-20T02:55:51Z nyef: Is it different from the one built from the CLX source? 2015-07-20T02:56:11Z creepingcreeper: DarkElement: So, I should use Lisp over languages like Java, C++/C and such if I want to hack (I'm not referring to cracking, btw)? 2015-07-20T02:56:23Z beach: nyef: I think gilberth improved it. 2015-07-20T02:56:57Z loke: creepingcreeper: There is no such thing as "should". Hacking is all about doing what you enjoy 2015-07-20T02:57:08Z beach: nyef: http://bauhh.de/clxman/ 2015-07-20T02:57:22Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-07-20T02:57:36Z loke: Some people enjoy Lisp, and obviously the people on this channel would agree with that. That doesn't mean that YOU must necessarily feel the same. 2015-07-20T02:57:51Z ToeTag: In emacs/slime, is C-c C-d f the fastest way to view a function's documentation when I'm in the REPL 2015-07-20T02:58:11Z loke: ToeTag: what do you mean "fast"? 2015-07-20T02:58:21Z loke: You can bind it to a single keypress if you want. 2015-07-20T02:58:35Z beach: creepingcreeper: You should always prefer Common Lisp. 2015-07-20T02:59:23Z ToeTag: loke, Yes, sorry that's what i'm referring to. I'd just like to quickly get any documentation on a function quickly 2015-07-20T02:59:39Z nyef: beach: Yeah, found it... And it's less complete than the PDF I built from the CLX source. 2015-07-20T02:59:43Z lisper29 left #lisp 2015-07-20T02:59:56Z beach: nyef: Oh! :( 2015-07-20T03:00:13Z beach: nyef: What a mess! 2015-07-20T03:00:23Z nyef: The local one I'm using includes DPMS and BIG-REQUESTS extensions. 2015-07-20T03:01:37Z rritoch: Is there a lisp algorithm wiki? I was just thinking that it would be useful to have a wiki of lisp algorithms, such as split-string to gather algorithms and potentially increase the evolutionary rate of lisp. 2015-07-20T03:02:10Z loke: rritoch: Yes 2015-07-20T03:02:33Z loke: It's not fantastic, but it's there: http://cliki.net/ 2015-07-20T03:02:45Z rritoch: loke: Cool, thanks 2015-07-20T03:04:11Z rritoch: loke: Hmm, it doesn't seem to have implementations though (source code) at least not for the example, I searched for split and came up with http://cliki.net/SPLIT-SEQUENCE 2015-07-20T03:04:33Z loke: rritoch: Yes, strings are sequences 2015-07-20T03:05:00Z loke: rritoch: if you want to split by regex, you should use cl-ppcre:split 2015-07-20T03:05:05Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-20T03:05:22Z rritoch: loke: I see, but what I meant was a wiki of source code, not just documentation 2015-07-20T03:05:42Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-20T03:05:52Z loke: rritoch: There is no need when using Common Lisp as long as you use SLIME (which everybody does). 2015-07-20T03:06:08Z loke: rritoch: All you do is to move the cursor to the call and press M-. that'll take you to its source. 2015-07-20T03:07:39Z beach: rritoch: Sounds like a project for you. 2015-07-20T03:08:35Z rritoch: beach: It isnt' really a project. I had a wikimedia app running for awhile but the spam and traffic mostly overloaded the server. 2015-07-20T03:08:53Z beach: rritoch: You can use Cliki. 2015-07-20T03:09:03Z beach: That would be a good place to put it anyway. 2015-07-20T03:09:43Z Guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:11:21Z rritoch: beach: My current "project" is to make a package/project management system, similar to leiningen, but in CL using ABCL. But it is low priority since none of my clients use, or want to use, Lisp. I mostly just use lisp for idea incubation. 2015-07-20T03:11:36Z loke: rritoch: There is alreay Quicklisp. I hope you're aware of that. 2015-07-20T03:11:37Z rritoch: beach: Though I've mostly been using clojure, I only recently switched to lisp. 2015-07-20T03:12:57Z rritoch: loke: I'm aware of Quicklisp, and intend to build on top of it, but this is more specifically for multi-language systems, including, but not necessarily limited, to Lisp & Java. 2015-07-20T03:13:08Z beach: rritoch: So when you said "it would be useful to have a wiki..." you meant that it would be useful to you? 2015-07-20T03:13:31Z beach: ... as opposed to "I suggest creating one for the use of others"? 2015-07-20T03:13:32Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-20T03:14:13Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:15:32Z rritoch: beach: It would be useful for the evolution of the language, period. Since I usually make my own algorithms and do a lot of wheel-re-inventing I'm not sure that it particularly applies to me, though it would help my trainees but for the most part they won't even try Lisp or Clojure. 2015-07-20T03:15:33Z ToeTag: loke, when you mentioned looking at source code by moving cursor to the call and pressing M- 2015-07-20T03:15:37Z ToeTag: is that meta and minus 2015-07-20T03:15:43Z loke: Meta period 2015-07-20T03:15:50Z loke: M-. 2015-07-20T03:15:55Z ToeTag: ah thanks 2015-07-20T03:16:03Z loke: You are using Emacs&SLIME are you not? 2015-07-20T03:16:27Z ToeTag: Yes; I read it wrong 2015-07-20T03:16:47Z loke: Meta minus would be M-- confusing, I know 2015-07-20T03:17:07Z ToeTag: Right, I see now - haha thank you 2015-07-20T03:17:12Z rritoch: beach: Getting most web developers to even look beyond PHP is a challenge in itself. 2015-07-20T03:18:20Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T03:18:25Z loke: rritoch: We have developed a chat application (pretty much a clone of Slack), server side implemented in CL and client side in Clojurescript. The intent is to release it as open source soon. 2015-07-20T03:18:50Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:18:50Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T03:19:01Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:19:13Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T03:19:26Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-20T03:20:16Z theos: rritoch I dont consider most "programmers" as programmers. they are a shame for the community 2015-07-20T03:21:13Z loke: theos: You mean the people who build production application suing PHP+Mongodb+Mysql? 2015-07-20T03:21:38Z beach: rritoch: Let me just warn you a bit since you are new to Common Lisp. This channel frequently get new people telling the Lisp community what they ought to be doing, and the reason given is often that Common Lisp is dying or underused, so therefore "someone" should do this or that. 2015-07-20T03:21:40Z beach: It gets quite boring after a while actually. It is much fresher to have someone offer to improve things by actually doing something that would benefit others. 2015-07-20T03:22:19Z theos: loke anyone who uses crap like php, java etc only. and doesnt even know how to use those properly. then makes shitty software 2015-07-20T03:22:37Z rritoch: theos: That is the zeitgeist when it comes to programming. All of the trainees I've taken on already had college degrees in Information Systems and/or computer science and only 1:10 of them were even able to complete the basic training. 2015-07-20T03:23:02Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-20T03:23:26Z cibs quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-20T03:23:43Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T03:23:54Z rritoch: beach: I'm not new to CL, I'm returning, though there isn't much of a difference since I've been away for about 20 years and a lot has been added since then. 2015-07-20T03:23:59Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:24:26Z ToeTag: beach - speaking of that. I've noticed that on youtube there are several videos where it's like "common lisp intro" and it's basically someone showing a REPL and that lisp uses prefix notation to add some numbers together but there seems to be a lack of good "tutorial" videos that go beyond showing some syntax. Do you think that it would be beneficial to have more of a 'beginner friendly' set of material on youtube about common lisp? 2015-07-20T03:24:28Z loke: rritoch: Wait a minute. Did you just say that a) there hasn't been much change and b) there have been much change? 2015-07-20T03:24:57Z beach: rritoch: That wasn't my point though. My point was that it gets boring to be told what we ought to be doing. 2015-07-20T03:25:05Z loke: ToeTag: Indeed. And I have intended to do exactly that. 2015-07-20T03:25:12Z rritoch: loke: There isn't much difference between me being new to Lisp and returning, since I've been away for so long. 2015-07-20T03:25:34Z loke: I did this presentation once, and I was thinking of building on that. 2015-07-20T03:25:35Z loke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pymDvW2Mvco 2015-07-20T03:25:41Z beach: ToeTag: I think that would be great. 2015-07-20T03:25:44Z loke: The recording is awful though 2015-07-20T03:26:30Z rritoch: beach: I asked if there was a wiki, I never said anyone had to do it. 2015-07-20T03:26:40Z ToeTag: Oh yeah I've watched this video - really enjoyed it loke! 2015-07-20T03:26:58Z rritoch: beach: You may want to consider having that pole surgically removed 2015-07-20T03:28:00Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-20T03:28:29Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T03:28:40Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:28:59Z theos: rritoch that why i wont be sending my kids to college :P They will start hacking CL from an early age and go on from there 2015-07-20T03:30:55Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:30:56Z rritoch: theos: Good luck with that. I taught my step-son Ruby and some basics of web design, but it was mostly a waste of time since he just spends most of his time playing minecraft. 2015-07-20T03:32:55Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T03:32:57Z loke: Well, you need a very mild level of autism in order to be a good programmer, I think. Otherwise there is no way you'd spend your childhood programming. 2015-07-20T03:33:07Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:33:09Z loke: I'm pretty sure I have a bit of it. 2015-07-20T03:36:30Z beach: drmeister: Around? 2015-07-20T03:37:36Z ghard```` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T03:37:47Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:39:00Z rritoch: theos: Have you checked out codecombat? https://codecombat.com/ it doesn't have Lisp, but it does have clojure. I'm thinking of introducing him to that site as it may re-activate his interest in coding. 2015-07-20T03:41:22Z ToeTag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-20T03:42:17Z rritoch: loke: There are a wide range of mental illnesses that lead to good programming skills. There's a direct relationship between IQ and mental illness. My "advantage" is PTSD, but I suspect any form of social anxiety or autism would make good programmers. 2015-07-20T03:42:28Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T03:42:45Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:44:42Z creepingcreeper quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T03:45:23Z theos: rritoch i think a game in CL would be best to get kids interested. plus an educational game in CL which they can hack and learn CL in the process would be great. 2015-07-20T03:45:40Z Guthur` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T03:47:03Z theos considers himself to be a decent programmer and he isnt mentally ill. 2015-07-20T03:47:20Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T03:47:33Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:51:46Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T03:51:57Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:52:38Z ahungry: Best thing to get a kid interested in programming is their friends being into it - at a certain age, doing what mom and dad do/want to do is no longer cool 2015-07-20T03:52:55Z ahungry: Hm, actually, forbid them from programming and I'm sure they'll do it non stop :p 2015-07-20T03:54:21Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-20T03:56:09Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:56:11Z rritoch: Hacking into your school's server to change grades is fun, but hacking into your girlfriend/wife's email account, priceless :) 2015-07-20T03:56:32Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-20T03:56:43Z ghard```` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T03:57:31Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T04:01:48Z rritoch: On the subject of security. Does CL have any kind of security manager to faciltate safe execution of untrusted code? 2015-07-20T04:02:36Z loke: rritoch: No. 2015-07-20T04:02:54Z loke: rritoch: Not as standard. It may be that some implementation has it, but I'm not aware of that. 2015-07-20T04:03:18Z loke: rritoch: It may be possible in ABCL to leverage the security manager of Java, but I haven't looked into that. 2015-07-20T04:05:26Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-20T04:06:13Z rritoch: loke: Well, from what I've seen so far of ABCL it should be possible to limit low-level access, but I haven't noticed anything to prevent untrusted code from overwriting existing functions with malicious versions. 2015-07-20T04:06:39Z loke: rritoch: What would you use such feature for? 2015-07-20T04:07:12Z loke: (I'm asking, because in my (almost) 20 decades of Java experience, I have only taken advantage of the security manager on a handful of occasions. 2015-07-20T04:09:33Z rritoch: Well, first of all Java hasn't existed for 20 decades, second of all it would be useful for cloud based ERP applications so users could implement their own integration services to add new capabilities. 2015-07-20T04:11:27Z beach is pretty sure loke is not 20 decades old. 2015-07-20T04:11:41Z rritoch is hoping loke isn't 20 decades old 2015-07-20T04:11:53Z loke: rritoch: Hah 2015-07-20T04:12:17Z loke: replace decades with years, or remove a zero. You choose. 2015-07-20T04:13:22Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-07-20T04:13:23Z rritoch: loke: Either way, it was amusing. I was running through the possiblities, A. Your a vampire, B. Your really loki, C. Your a zombie ... 2015-07-20T04:13:39Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T04:13:53Z loke: rritoch: "Mine a zombe"? "Mine a vampire"? 2015-07-20T04:14:07Z loke: "My really loki"? 2015-07-20T04:15:35Z rritoch: Zombie & Vampires are undead, and loki is a god (demon), either way, they all could be 200+ years old, IF they exist(ed). 2015-07-20T04:16:05Z loke: I know. I was just pointing out your grammar error. 2015-07-20T04:19:36Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T04:20:39Z rritoch: loke: Yeah, I never quite understood that. I can spell thousands of function names correctly, every time, and know over a dozen programming languages (grammar) with very few syntax errors, yet when it comes to english I rarely get the grammar or spelling correct. 2015-07-20T04:21:26Z Bike: ever read syntactic structures? the grammar is rather more complex 2015-07-20T04:24:21Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-20T04:29:46Z bitwiggl1r joined #lisp 2015-07-20T04:32:37Z ggole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T04:33:17Z rritoch quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-20T04:35:11Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-20T04:35:43Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-20T04:45:10Z Rav3n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T04:52:27Z beach: Aha! So it appears that FIND-METHOD-COMBINATION is the "database" of method combinations and that new method combinations are added to the system by adding methods to FIND-METHOD-COMBINATION. 2015-07-20T04:52:51Z beach: I could not have guessed that just from reading the specification. 2015-07-20T04:53:31Z beach: I suppose it doesn't HAVE to be done that way, though. 2015-07-20T04:53:38Z Bike: i did not even know that function existed... 2015-07-20T04:53:47Z beach: mop find-method-combination 2015-07-20T04:53:47Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/find-method-combination.html 2015-07-20T04:53:58Z Bike: "Further details of method combination metaobjects are not specified. " good ol' mop. 2015-07-20T04:54:04Z beach: Yeah. 2015-07-20T04:54:24Z beach: So one has to guess the intentions, or "cheat" by looking at source code. 2015-07-20T04:54:58Z Bike: what do you know, that is indeed what sbcl does. i had no idea 2015-07-20T04:54:59Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-20T04:55:13Z beach: That's how I figured it out. :) 2015-07-20T04:58:18Z beach: And the name FIND-METHOD-COMBINATION is misleading because it actually creates instances of the method-combination classes. 2015-07-20T04:59:17Z splittist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T04:59:21Z lancetw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T04:59:28Z beach: I think I will do it differently. 2015-07-20T04:59:53Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-07-20T04:59:58Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:00:24Z alms_clozure quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:00:47Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:01:22Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:01:57Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:02:36Z l1x joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:02:51Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T05:03:17Z ggherdov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:03:19Z akkad: once you do a hunchentoot:start fromt he repl, is there any ability to kil that process? 2015-07-20T05:03:33Z oskarth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:03:42Z codeitagile quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:03:48Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:04:57Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:05:39Z Mhoram quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-20T05:06:59Z oskarth joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:08:20Z beach: Bike: Since I have first-class global environments, I think I'll create an API generic function for returning a method-combination class, given the name of one, and another function for associating the name of a method-combination class with a method-combination class. 2015-07-20T05:08:45Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:09:48Z beach: Then DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION would create a new class. The only problem is what I should call it. 2015-07-20T05:11:55Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:12:09Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:12:44Z loke: beach: FOO 2015-07-20T05:12:51Z loke: You can never go wrong with foo 2015-07-20T05:13:15Z mlrutherford quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-20T05:13:25Z beach: Maybe I should adapt that idea to where I live. Here it would be TOTO. 2015-07-20T05:14:45Z beach: BAR and BAZ are TITI and TATA respectively. 2015-07-20T05:15:09Z loke: beach: You are french? 2015-07-20T05:15:30Z beach: No. But I live in France. 2015-07-20T05:16:09Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-20T05:18:45Z codeitagile joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:18:58Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:19:32Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:22:10Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:23:19Z Mhoram quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-20T05:24:08Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:26:26Z drmeister: Hey beach 2015-07-20T05:26:38Z beach: drmeister: Hi. Are you OK? 2015-07-20T05:27:09Z drmeister: I did some timing tests comparing dynamic_cast to a virtual function predicate. dynamic_cast is faster. 2015-07-20T05:27:20Z drmeister: I'm not sure why. 2015-07-20T05:27:27Z beach: That is hard to believe. 2015-07-20T05:28:08Z drmeister: It took me a lot of work to get a test that didn't get optimized away. 2015-07-20T05:28:24Z beach: Wow. 2015-07-20T05:28:50Z beach: I saw some articles, maybe on stackoverflow, that indicated the contrary. 2015-07-20T05:28:58Z drmeister: I wrote a predicate: virtual bool environmentp() --> returns true if the object is a clasp environment and false if not. 2015-07-20T05:28:58Z beach: Let me see if I can dig them up... 2015-07-20T05:29:48Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:30:29Z drmeister: I need to go again for a while - lots of interruptions - I'll check the logs later. 2015-07-20T05:30:43Z beach: I guess virtual functions can be quite slow if you are using multiple inheritance. 2015-07-20T05:30:48Z beach: OK. 2015-07-20T05:31:11Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:31:14Z beach: As I recall, the standard implementation method uses several table lookups. 2015-07-20T05:31:25Z beach: So there could very well be several memory accesses. 2015-07-20T05:32:39Z adhoc: beach: not just inspecting each of the poly-inheritance trees, but inspecting the arguments sets 2015-07-20T05:33:02Z pjb: There's a wiki of source code. It's named github. 2015-07-20T05:34:08Z beach: adhoc: Not sure what you mean. As I recall, there is a two-level table used to dispatch to the right method. No? 2015-07-20T05:34:44Z beach: Hmm, they worked very hard to find an implementation technique that makes generic dispatch constant time. Except that since they did that, memory access has become a lot more expensive than computations. 2015-07-20T05:35:10Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:35:10Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:35:16Z beach: So now, with the SICL method of generic dispatch, CLOS might very well be faster than C++. 2015-07-20T05:35:24Z frankS2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:35:25Z cojy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:35:27Z d4gg4d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:35:45Z codeitagile quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:35:45Z joshmcmillan_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:35:47Z pjb: minion: memo for rritoch: if you find not much of a difference since 20 years ago, then you've not been updating yourself good enough. Try to keep abreast of the latest development in the Common Lisp ecosystem, the last ten years have been magical! 2015-07-20T05:35:47Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rritoch when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-20T05:35:48Z lala quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:35:48Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:35:55Z gendl_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:36:06Z ggherdov quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:36:12Z danlentz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:36:12Z NhanH quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:36:14Z splittist quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:36:18Z victor_lowther quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:36:27Z oskarth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:36:46Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:36:48Z Neet quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:36:54Z beach: drmeister: This article has the opposite conclusion: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9959315/why-virtual-function-call-is-faster-than-dynamic-cast 2015-07-20T05:37:21Z pjb: minion: memo for rritoch: hint: quicklisp (and the thousands of libraries it delivers). 2015-07-20T05:37:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rritoch when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-20T05:37:30Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:37:43Z pjb: Of course, virtual functions is the right way to do OO in C++. 2015-07-20T05:37:59Z beach: As opposed to dynamic cast? 2015-07-20T05:37:59Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:38:00Z pjb: Naturally, this is what is frowned upon and avoided at all cost by C++ programmers… 2015-07-20T05:38:08Z XachX joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:38:15Z pjb: Yes, you need almost no cast in OO programming. 2015-07-20T05:38:15Z beach: Ah, I see what you are saying. 2015-07-20T05:38:33Z pjb: Basically, the only case where you need to cast, is when you have covariant parallel hierarchies. 2015-07-20T05:38:33Z beach: Right. The question here is what is faster. 2015-07-20T05:38:50Z pjb: OO Lyskof's principle implies contravariant hierarchies. 2015-07-20T05:39:27Z beach: Yes, I vaguely remember all that. But I haven't cared too much about it since I started using a dynamically-typed language. 2015-07-20T05:39:28Z pjb: Well, faster would depend on the compiler and optimizations, I don't know C++ with this level of details. 2015-07-20T05:39:46Z gz joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:39:49Z cojy joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:39:55Z beach: In this particular case, dynamic cast seems to do a string comparison on the name of the class. :) 2015-07-20T05:40:12Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:40:38Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:40:41Z beach: Like I said yesterday, I can't believe that a language with a reputation of being ultra fast would have such a crappy implementation of dynamic cast. 2015-07-20T05:40:43Z frankS2 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:41:30Z codeitagile joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:41:41Z beach: OK, I need to go. Monday mornings are crazy around here. 2015-07-20T05:41:44Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-20T05:42:04Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:42:25Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:43:15Z pjb: You can do it fast, if you have a fixed and small set of classes, by using bitmap to represent sets. In a program once I did that. But C++ programs tend to have a lot of classes, that might get in the way of providing a fast implementation of dynamic_cast. 2015-07-20T05:44:51Z pjb: Perhaps the string comparison is to allow for separate compilation; an efficient subclass checking (performed during dynamic_cast) requires a global analysis; it could be done only at link-time (or at run-time for a dynamically loaded library). 2015-07-20T05:44:58Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:44:59Z joshmcmillan_ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:46:05Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:46:57Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:48:07Z oskarth joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:48:39Z hocwp`` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:49:23Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-07-20T05:49:46Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:49:48Z PuercoPop: Is iterate widely used? Is their generator implementation a defacto standard? 2015-07-20T05:50:13Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:50:30Z hocwp` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:50:31Z pjb would hole loke is 20 decade old, that it's genetic, and that he made a lot of grand-grand-grand-children to spread the good gene. 2015-07-20T05:50:49Z H4ns: PuercoPop: what do you mean by "widely"? 2015-07-20T05:50:53Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:50:57Z pjb: PuercoPop: some people like iterate and use it a lot. I've never felt the need for it so far. 2015-07-20T05:51:15Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-20T05:51:25Z |3b|: akkad: call hunchentoot:stop on whatever you passed to start? 2015-07-20T05:51:27Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:51:29Z H4ns: PuercoPop: iterate is not a "defacto standard", but it is liked by a few people. i would say it is mostly a lisp beginner's choice, many longer-time lisp hackers just use loop. 2015-07-20T05:51:59Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:52:29Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:53:43Z Neet joined #lisp 2015-07-20T05:53:52Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-20T05:55:30Z pjb: It's not a bad library AFAIK, notably it allows for extensions, which loop doesn't. What I miss a lot in loop, is looping over sequences (ie. indiferentiating lists from vectors). 2015-07-20T05:56:14Z PuercoPop: H4ns: I agree widely is a subjective term. It may not have been the best phrasing of the question. What I was wondering about was more about the generator/drivers. If similar to gray-streams being the way one enhances streams, if its generators are defacto way to make a collection iterable/a sequence. I prefer loop, so I've never used iterate. 2015-07-20T05:57:15Z H4ns: PuercoPop: in that sense no, iterate is not a de facto standard. 2015-07-20T05:57:50Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:58:06Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T05:59:51Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:00:58Z cibs joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:03:25Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:03:29Z PuercoPop: pjb: the extensibility is a nice. One of the minor things I think CL could use is an iteration protocol (a la python). Although Henry Baker is of the idea that they are signs of weakness of the language. 2015-07-20T06:03:44Z mrSpec quit (Changing host) 2015-07-20T06:03:44Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:03:53Z pjb: Of course. Iterators are trivial to do with closures. 2015-07-20T06:04:22Z pjb: Also, five minute exercise: implement C++ iterators :-) 2015-07-20T06:04:55Z lala joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:07:05Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:12:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:13:47Z streptotrichosis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T06:14:28Z ronh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T06:14:37Z antgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T06:15:06Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:15:10Z huza joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:15:18Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:16:20Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-20T06:18:57Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:20:19Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T06:21:20Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T06:22:22Z therik joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:25:40Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-20T06:26:11Z mtd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T06:26:54Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-20T06:28:33Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:28:37Z bitwiggl1r quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-20T06:28:47Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T06:29:52Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:33:46Z huserl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T06:38:21Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-20T06:39:14Z mtd joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:41:09Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:44:11Z lala left #lisp 2015-07-20T06:50:30Z pillton: PuercoPop: There is a specification for extensible sequences. 2015-07-20T06:54:32Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T06:55:15Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:56:04Z jludwig joined #lisp 2015-07-20T06:58:02Z jludwig is now known as CyberLard 2015-07-20T07:05:36Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:06:19Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:07:00Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-20T07:07:05Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:07:48Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-07-20T07:09:14Z Firedancer: o/ 2015-07-20T07:15:12Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T07:15:26Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:17:07Z therik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T07:19:11Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:19:48Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T07:24:30Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-20T07:26:43Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:28:05Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:29:29Z keen__________26 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:29:39Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:31:06Z gendl_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:06Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:08Z NhanH quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T07:31:11Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2015-07-20T07:31:20Z gz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:20Z asedeno quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:20Z frankS2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-20T07:31:20Z superjudge quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-20T07:31:20Z rvirding quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:25Z endou___________ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:25Z Neet quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:42Z d4gg4d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-20T07:31:43Z joshmcmillan_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T07:31:45Z oskarth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:47Z alms_clozure quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:53Z trig-ger quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:54Z danlentz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:54Z keen__________25 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-20T07:31:55Z lancetw quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:55Z happy-dude quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:56Z victor_lowther quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:31:56Z l1x quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:32:38Z XachX quit (Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T07:32:41Z ggherdov quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T07:36:48Z clog joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:37:03Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:37:28Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:37:36Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-20T07:40:15Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:40:41Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:40:50Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:41:06Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:42:51Z asedeno joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:43:16Z loke: pillton: SBCL supports ex5tensibe sequences natively 2015-07-20T07:44:05Z Neet joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:46:17Z not_tfl quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-20T07:47:23Z eazar001 is now known as eazar_supervisor 2015-07-20T07:47:41Z eazar_supervisor is now known as eazar_pool 2015-07-20T07:48:15Z eazar_pool is now known as eazar001 2015-07-20T07:48:52Z eazar001 is now known as hello_eazar001 2015-07-20T07:50:07Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-20T07:50:57Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:51:54Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:53:45Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:53:50Z oskarth joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:54:40Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-07-20T07:54:49Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:00:30Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T08:01:46Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:06:25Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:07:48Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:09:12Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:09:36Z frankS2 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:10:11Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:10:43Z l1x joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:10:45Z gz joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:11:37Z joshmcmillan_ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:12:16Z endou___________ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:12:21Z Firedancer: Is there any good speed comparisons between Common Lisp vs other languages? I was thinking of doing some simple numerical simulations and I was wondering how efficient it is 2015-07-20T08:14:12Z easye` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-20T08:14:24Z superjudge joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:15:06Z easye joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:16:25Z antoszka: Firedancer: It can be very fast (approaching/bypassing C in well crafted code). 2015-07-20T08:17:39Z antoszka: Firedancer: In most everyday tasks you'll find it somewhere in between most other "dynamic" languages (python 3/ruby 2) and low-levelish C stuff. 2015-07-20T08:18:38Z Firedancer: That is a pretty large variance 2015-07-20T08:19:04Z |3b|: languages don't have speeds, but some CL implementations are pretty fast 2015-07-20T08:19:05Z Firedancer: As I am completely noob on lisp I guess I should expect speed to be more closer to the python/ruby camp 2015-07-20T08:19:26Z |3b|: (some are pretty slow too, and in all cases it depends a lot on what the code looks like) 2015-07-20T08:20:35Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:20:37Z hello_eazar001 is now known as eazar001 2015-07-20T08:20:44Z |3b|: sbcl in particular spends a lot of time optimizing during compilation, so can generate pretty fast code when used well 2015-07-20T08:22:32Z Firedancer: This Sourceforge scandal seem to be hard for Lisp as almost every Lisp library I have looked into in past few days has had their site on that 2015-07-20T08:23:33Z |3b|: yeah, not enough lisp users = not enough extra people to deal with annoying things like maintaining servers and moving things to whichever hosting service is the most popular this week 2015-07-20T08:26:18Z Firedancer: Shame, as Lisp seems to be really interesting language 2015-07-20T08:26:37Z pjb: Firedancer: http://cliki.net/Performance ; everything's on cliki. 2015-07-20T08:27:29Z pjb: Let's hope this will motivate people to move stuff to common-lisp.net 2015-07-20T08:27:42Z Firedancer: pjb: Nice, thanks. I wonder why Google didn't give me this site when I searched 2015-07-20T08:28:03Z pjb: Firedancer: give google time to learn your preferences. It has to forget your porn searches first. 2015-07-20T08:29:40Z Vityok: Programming Languages Shootout provides some examples of performance comparisons between different porgramming language implementations in a number of test cases 2015-07-20T08:30:17Z Vityok: but a lot depends on the time invested in implementation of your algorithms - it is possible to be very slow, and rather fast 2015-07-20T08:30:53Z pjb: The fastest program is the program you don't need to run. In lisp you can easily add "reasoning" to your program to avoid computing slowly useless results. 2015-07-20T08:31:20Z pjb: Symbolic reasoning. Of course, statistical intelligence is nice, but it needs a lot of GPUs… 2015-07-20T08:31:28Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:31:49Z p_l: Firedancer: the benchmark game had some nice cases 2015-07-20T08:31:56Z p_l: ah, I see Vityok already mentioned it 2015-07-20T08:32:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:32:52Z Cymew: It has been said the benefit of Common Lisp in speed is it's easy to get something up and running to test your ideas. It might be slow but allows you to try algorithms and so on. Then it can be improved. 2015-07-20T08:33:43Z Cymew: For me that speed is crucial, as I don't have time to figure out how to work both C and gcc at the same time. 2015-07-20T08:34:21Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-20T08:34:31Z Cymew: I think that can be worth considering, Firedancer, even when doing numerical computation. 2015-07-20T08:34:49Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-07-20T08:36:15Z Firedancer: That is true. And my simulations are pretty simple so I don't need it to be the fastest. But for example for iterating with different parameters it is nice that the you don't have to take coffee break everytime you change something 2015-07-20T08:36:28Z p_l: Firedancer: during ELS2015 there was a presentation about using Common Lisp in concerto with BLAS/LAPACK and MPI to do quantum simulations on supercomputers :) 2015-07-20T08:37:00Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-20T08:37:03Z Firedancer: Hmm that sounds pretty interesting 2015-07-20T08:37:32Z p_l: while majority of the computation itself was done by library routines, the code included things like dynamic generation of compute loops 2015-07-20T08:37:41Z Cymew: MPI is a pain, but apart from that it sounds like it could be fun. ;) 2015-07-20T08:38:25Z |3b|: Firedancer: another advantage of CL is that you can usually work with it interactively, so saving a load/save of your data set for every change might make up for some difference of computation speed 2015-07-20T08:38:56Z p_l: Cymew: not like there are many other options (going direct with librdma?) on the hardware that was used :D 2015-07-20T08:39:07Z p_l: also, MPI was kinda designed exactly for that kind of problem 2015-07-20T08:40:23Z Cymew: Interesting idea to use rdma directly... 2015-07-20T08:40:57Z Cymew: I have taken a parallel computing class and while it was interesting I felt MPI was the kludgiest part of it. 2015-07-20T08:41:18Z Cymew: But, it is the tool for the job, indeed. 2015-07-20T08:41:50Z p_l: Cymew: in the case, I think MPI remote shared memory was used indeed 2015-07-20T08:41:59Z p_l: but talking to librdma directly might be hairy 2015-07-20T08:42:17Z p_l: MPI also takes care of routing and topology optimizations on supercomputers, remember 2015-07-20T08:42:39Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T08:43:19Z therik joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:43:27Z therik: morning 2015-07-20T08:45:14Z therik: a practical real-life question.. After spending a weekend in lisp, what do you do to scale down the excitement and squeeze your brain back to start thinking in curly braces? 2015-07-20T08:46:45Z p_l: therik: scotch 2015-07-20T08:46:57Z Cymew: p_l: Yeah, MPI does all kinds of fun stuff, and some less pleasant stuff. But maybe we should stop before start with my Fortran and HPC anecdotes. :) 2015-07-20T08:47:17Z therik: p_l, thanks 2015-07-20T08:47:20Z Cymew sometimes misses his supercomputers 2015-07-20T08:47:40Z p_l: therik: at least that's what I feel like needing with some stuff at work 2015-07-20T08:47:57Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:48:08Z Cymew: therik: You could always start to develop macros that emit curly braces, so you get to stay in parenthesis land. 2015-07-20T08:49:47Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T08:51:15Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:55:59Z eazar_sheepcount joined #lisp 2015-07-20T08:56:15Z dubkoidragon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T08:57:34Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T09:00:51Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-20T09:08:04Z rjmacready joined #lisp 2015-07-20T09:08:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-20T09:10:36Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-20T09:12:35Z pjb: One trick is to use emacs at work. Then write emacs lisp code to generate your java or c or whatever you have to write. 2015-07-20T09:12:42Z kushal quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-20T09:12:45Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-20T09:13:44Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T09:13:50Z pjb: Eg. if you must write java, use linj. https://github.com/xach/linj 2015-07-20T09:14:04Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2015-07-20T09:14:14Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-20T09:14:25Z XachX quit (Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T09:15:05Z pjb: See also: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html 2015-07-20T09:15:47Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T09:21:24Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 187 seconds) 2015-07-20T09:23:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T09:23:44Z intinig quit 2015-07-20T09:24:08Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-20T09:24:10Z yenda- joined #lisp 2015-07-20T09:24:27Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-20T09:29:19Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-20T09:29:59Z lokulin quit (Changing host) 2015-07-20T09:29:59Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-07-20T09:31:28Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-20T09:32:20Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-20T09:33:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T09:33:23Z hocwp`` left #lisp 2015-07-20T09:33:42Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-20T09:36:19Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(I realise in the general that may not be a good idea, but right now it seems "ok") 2015-07-20T10:57:20Z pjb: myrk2: (load (merge-pathname #P".sbclrc" (user-homedir-pathname))) 2015-07-20T10:57:23Z wukawuka joined #lisp 2015-07-20T10:57:38Z myrk2: Ah, thanks. 2015-07-20T10:58:48Z pjb: It's on the same level as bash scripts sourcing ~/.bashrc. Perhaps a little worse, since lisp users are not used to have scripts, so they put interactive stuff in their lisp rc files. 2015-07-20T10:59:14Z pjb: it would be better for your script to use a specific name for its configuration file. 2015-07-20T10:59:28Z pjb: (and to include all its initialization inside itself). 2015-07-20T11:00:03Z myrk2: Yeah. 2015-07-20T11:00:08Z myrk2: I think I'll just do that. 2015-07-20T11:00:13Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:03:17Z shlomo joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:05:14Z wukawuka quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-20T11:06:04Z eazar_sheepcount quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-20T11:08:10Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:08:42Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T11:12:25Z Vityok: where can I download latest SBCL release while the SourceForge is down? 2015-07-20T11:15:05Z Vityok: or if I get SBCL sources from its mirror on GitHub - what tags/etc to look for to get the tree to the latest release? 2015-07-20T11:15:08Z perpetuum joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:15:51Z Cymew: SBCL 1.2.12.57-ef0b7ba is what I run and that is decently new 2015-07-20T11:16:14Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:17:14Z Vityok: Cymew: it looks like I've got a problem with CFFI on SBCL 1.2.5 and I hope to get rid of it by moving to the latest release 2015-07-20T11:18:03Z Cymew: Ouch! 2015-07-20T11:18:25Z Cymew: Sounds like we're all out of luck today 2015-07-20T11:19:04Z Vityok: or I'll defer it until the sbcl.org resumes its operation, since there is still CCL at hand that does not manifest this problem 2015-07-20T11:19:19Z Firedancer: Has there been any community effort/talk about moving away from Sourceforge? 2015-07-20T11:21:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T11:21:37Z Cymew: For sbcl that's probably more of a #sbcl question 2015-07-20T11:23:05Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:24:47Z Vityok: ha, GitHub has a "releases" tab for those who want to avoid the git hussle 2015-07-20T11:25:00Z chelseaclinton joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:25:09Z |3b|: lots of talk, from what i've seen main result of which is annoying sbcl devs 2015-07-20T11:26:17Z Firedancer: ooo interesting, they aren't worried about Sourceforge at all? 2015-07-20T11:26:19Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T11:26:20Z perpetuum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T11:27:08Z |3b|: more that people keep asking, like they hadn't noticed the problem on their own, and that they don't think the alternatives are perfect either 2015-07-20T11:27:34Z |3b|: and that it would take effort they'd rather spend on other things 2015-07-20T11:28:15Z Vityok: btw, it might probably impact QuickLisp as well - some libraries were hosting their repositories on SourceForge 2015-07-20T11:29:30Z |3b|: that should only matter if it is still down at next ql release, since ql downloads from ql server 2015-07-20T11:30:26Z XachX: No direct impact. I have everything cached. 2015-07-20T11:30:38Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:30:39Z Firedancer: Though after the big projects have left, smaller ones need to start worry if Sourceforge at they special formula to the binaries 2015-07-20T11:31:28Z Vityok: XachX: but if projects are still maintained, they will have to migrate their repositories this way or another 2015-07-20T11:32:01Z XachX: Being in sourceforge is a big "not maintained" indicator. 2015-07-20T11:33:50Z Vityok: well, now it is kind of yes, but it worked more or less fine before 2015-07-20T11:34:12Z Vityok: I'm hosting repositories for my libraries there, now will have to move 2015-07-20T11:34:35Z larion joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:35:16Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:36:07Z Firedancer: Isn't Github okay for coding related projects where you can expect users to compile the source themself? 2015-07-20T11:36:34Z copycat1 is now known as copycat 2015-07-20T11:38:47Z perpetuum joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:39:03Z theos: did someone hack sf? 2015-07-20T11:39:48Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T11:39:58Z |3b|: filesystem problems on their storage array or something 2015-07-20T11:40:41Z Cymew: They have been quiet about it, at least where I'm looking. Could mean they are busy working on the issue, though... 2015-07-20T11:40:46Z p_l: theos: https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/3do9k0/sourceforge_is_down_due_to_storage_problems_no_eta/ct77o49 <--- sounds quite plausible 2015-07-20T11:40:48Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:40:55Z |3b|: there are blog posts about it 2015-07-20T11:41:19Z |3b|: http://sourceforge.net/blog/sourceforge-infrastructure-and-service-restoration/ 2015-07-20T11:41:41Z theos: i saw there twitter feed and they were posting alternately "we are back" and "we are down with 500 error" 2015-07-20T11:42:05Z p_l: theos: I imagine bringing back what was described by that throwaway reddit account is not a cakewalk 2015-07-20T11:44:41Z theos: p_l some people are saying that sf died because of being partial to money making software. so i was confused 2015-07-20T11:44:48Z Cymew: Hmm. So you have to be on reddit as well to get the whole picture... 2015-07-20T11:45:32Z p_l: theos: part of what was happening in recent years to cause further decline, yes 2015-07-20T11:45:58Z p_l: theos: but decline of income from ads vs. particular outage = two different things 2015-07-20T11:46:07Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:46:08Z theos: yes 2015-07-20T11:48:03Z Cymew: Hillarious: "Combining 5 year warranty 3rd party disks on an 3 year warranty Extremely Massive Corporation box is a good way to get a system with a 0 year warranty." 2015-07-20T11:48:37Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:48:44Z kami quit (Changing host) 2015-07-20T11:48:44Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:48:48Z kami: Hello #lisp 2015-07-20T11:50:11Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:51:20Z Vityok: kami: hi 2015-07-20T11:52:36Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:53:31Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:54:44Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:55:14Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T11:56:17Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T11:56:45Z perpetuum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T11:57:21Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-20T11:57:56Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:01:46Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T12:07:31Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-20T12:08:53Z Spinfuzor quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T12:10:29Z jsgrant- joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:11:06Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T12:17:10Z jsgrant- quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-20T12:20:57Z jsgrant- joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:21:14Z jsgrant- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T12:21:30Z jsgrant- joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:22:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T12:24:52Z Xach left #lisp 2015-07-20T12:25:58Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:32:43Z huserl joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:33:47Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:33:51Z wat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T12:34:23Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:34:24Z tkd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T12:34:37Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:34:55Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:35:14Z myrk2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T12:35:51Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:36:04Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-20T12:39:35Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-20T12:39:42Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-20T12:41:25Z optikalmouse quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T12:43:13Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-20T12:50:03Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:52:55Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:55:11Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:55:36Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T12:55:48Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:56:47Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T12:57:09Z dafunkti_ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:57:29Z larion joined #lisp 2015-07-20T12:57:52Z dafunktion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T12:57:56Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:02:46Z chelseaclinton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T13:05:56Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:13:25Z shlomo: How do I bind a global function to an expression? e.g. make foo the function (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) without using defun, just that lambda expression 2015-07-20T13:13:26Z whiteline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-20T13:13:54Z H4ns: shlomo: (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda ...)) 2015-07-20T13:13:59Z H4ns: shlomo: but why? 2015-07-20T13:14:41Z pjb: shlomo: flet or labels. 2015-07-20T13:14:51Z shlomo: H4ns: I have a macro that expands to a lambda expression, and I want to bind a global function to its expansion 2015-07-20T13:14:53Z pjb: (flet ((foo (x) (+ x 1))) (foo 4)) --> 5 2015-07-20T13:15:08Z pjb: Then as H4ns said, (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda ...)). 2015-07-20T13:15:24Z pjb: But why doesn't your macro expand to a defun form? 2015-07-20T13:15:55Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:16:38Z H4ns: shlomo: I see - then (SETF FDEFINITION) should be what you need. 2015-07-20T13:16:41Z shlomo: pjb: sometimes I use it inside a global function 2015-07-20T13:16:52Z shlomo: H4ns: thanks 2015-07-20T13:17:16Z pjb: shlomo: modularize! 2015-07-20T13:17:18Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:17:57Z pjb: Split out a function to generate the lambda-list and the body, and then write two macros, one to define a global function and one to define a local function, calling the generating function to get the parts. 2015-07-20T13:19:23Z shlomo: pjb: ok, I'm trying this 2015-07-20T13:20:01Z xBlackyII joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:20:24Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T13:21:05Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:22:30Z Vityok: I've got a strange problem with the latest SBCL as well as with some previous versions: it does not see a symbol that is created with defun 2015-07-20T13:22:51Z pjb: Symbols are not created with defun. 2015-07-20T13:22:58Z pjb: They are created by make-symbol or intern. 2015-07-20T13:23:07Z Vityok: basically I do (in-package :cl-proj) (defun geo-transform (a b c)) and when I try to use it from another package it is not visible from there 2015-07-20T13:23:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:23:14Z H4ns: Vityok: you need to be more specific. demonstrate your issue using a minimal example, paste it to paste.lisp.org. 2015-07-20T13:23:14Z pjb: (or gensym or gentemp, but those functions will call make-symbol or intern). 2015-07-20T13:23:31Z Vityok: despite it is being :exported in the package defininition and it works on Clozure CL, ECL 2015-07-20T13:23:40Z pjb: Then you have a cl-proj::geo-transform symbol. 2015-07-20T13:24:22Z Vityok: I did (do-symbols (sym (find-package 'cl-proj)) (format t "sym: ~a~%" sym)) 2015-07-20T13:24:30Z Vityok: and this symbol is still not there 2015-07-20T13:24:37Z Vityok: but all other symbols are in place 2015-07-20T13:24:53Z pjb: You must have an error somewhere that prevent it to be read and interned. 2015-07-20T13:25:22Z Vityok: but with Clozure CL it works flawlessly, and with ECL too 2015-07-20T13:27:05Z Vityok: and it works on another computer that has SBCL 1.1.7 2015-07-20T13:27:36Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:27:42Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:28:33Z pjb: That's strange. Try to debug it with #sbcl? 2015-07-20T13:28:36Z k-dawg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T13:29:13Z xBlackyII left #lisp 2015-07-20T13:29:41Z Vityok: pjb: it was really strange! solved it! 2015-07-20T13:29:51Z xBlackyII joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:30:08Z Vityok: there was a symlink that I forgot already about in the ~/.sbcl/systems directory 2015-07-20T13:30:19Z Vityok: it left there from the pre-Quicklisp times probably 2015-07-20T13:31:43Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:39:56Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:39:56Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-20T13:39:56Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:40:13Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T13:45:01Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-20T13:52:14Z kp666 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-20T13:55:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T13:55:34Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-07-20T14:00:31Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T14:01:44Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T14:05:02Z flip214: did somebody already test https://github.com/meric/l2l? Is that complete, as in "passes the ansi-tests"? 2015-07-20T14:05:58Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-07-20T14:07:12Z H4ns: flip214: i cannot see why it would. it does not even claim to implement common lisp, or does it? 2015-07-20T14:09:22Z flip214: uh, perhaps I misread. I thought it would. 2015-07-20T14:12:54Z davidurman joined #lisp 2015-07-20T14:17:00Z Guthur`: from the examples it looks like a cross between CL and Clojure 2015-07-20T14:21:23Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-20T14:25:35Z davidurman: I think CL has no much future 2015-07-20T14:25:55Z H4ns: davidurman: can you express that sentiment somewhere else, please? 2015-07-20T14:27:12Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 2015-07-20T14:27:15Z davidurman: it's not abandoned yet in sense of production usage, but abandoned as a technology/language. does'nt it true? 2015-07-20T14:27:34Z davidurman changed the topic of #lisp to: CL has not much future. 2015-07-20T14:27:35Z Guthur`: 5 4 3 2 1 2015-07-20T14:27:42Z Guthur`: ah missed timed 2015-07-20T14:27:45Z Guthur`: close though 2015-07-20T14:27:47Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1 2015-07-20T14:27:52Z davidurman [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (davidurman) 2015-07-20T14:28:00Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-20T14:28:07Z fe[nl]ix: H4ns: thanks 2015-07-20T14:28:10Z H4ns: fe[nl]ix: *5* 2015-07-20T14:28:16Z p_l: ... channel ban list is full :( 2015-07-20T14:28:35Z p_l: ... quiet list is full too 2015-07-20T14:28:36Z dlowe: it's really too bad you can't set bans to auto-expire 2015-07-20T14:28:41Z Guthur`: certainly seems to be a lot of CL is dead trolls these days 2015-07-20T14:28:42Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: can you clean it up a little ? 2015-07-20T14:28:55Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: I do a periodic cleanup, but I'm technically in middle of a meeting 2015-07-20T14:29:15Z p_l: also, a lot of bans are of the kind that I'd leave 2015-07-20T14:29:28Z fe[nl]ix: I see 2015-07-20T14:30:04Z ar joined #lisp 2015-07-20T14:30:56Z p_l has set mode +t 2015-07-20T14:31:09Z p_l: I'm temporarily instituting op-only topic change 2015-07-20T14:32:16Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-07-20T14:32:50Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-20T14:33:13Z p_l: and I think we need a) an update to minion -or- a proper channel-management bot to handle banlists etc. b) petition freenode staff for mode +L on #lisp :| 2015-07-20T14:33:24Z fe[nl]ix has set mode -b *!*ams@gnu/inetutils/ams 2015-07-20T14:34:00Z fe[nl]ix: I think +L is the way to go 2015-07-20T14:48:19Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-07-20T14:48:19Z 2015-07-20T14:48:19Z names: ccl-logbot _sjs oconnore asedeno wolf_mozart AntiSpamMeta TeMPOraL djinni` bjorkintosh zeitue Tristam psy_ gensym gko daimrod cartwright swflint voidlily Adlai ktx cyphase izabera PuercoPop brucem foom larme Guest45421 CEnnis91 arrsim cpt_nemo killmaster ThePhoeron_ jasom_ sigjuice_ HDurer_ pchrist_ kbtr anachrom1 otwieracz sharkz__ zyoung constantinexvi_ k-dawg d4gg4d 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2015-07-20T14:59:15Z jackdaniel /win 14 2015-07-20T14:59:18Z jackdaniel: eh 2015-07-20T14:59:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T15:00:24Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:00:30Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:00:41Z ThePhoeron_ is now known as ThePhoeron 2015-07-20T15:00:56Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-20T15:03:19Z joast joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:04:22Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:05:10Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T15:07:00Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:07:05Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-20T15:08:31Z pchrist_ is now known as pchrist 2015-07-20T15:09:02Z gendl__ quit (Quit: gendl__) 2015-07-20T15:10:28Z jackdaniel adjusts defperson into being his business card 2015-07-20T15:10:32Z jackdaniel: from els 2015-07-20T15:10:45Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-20T15:14:20Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T15:14:31Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:16:43Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:19:07Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T15:19:26Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:21:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T15:21:38Z theos: p_l instead of bans, you can mute most of the people 2015-07-20T15:21:56Z theos: or let only identified users talk 2015-07-20T15:23:50Z jackdaniel: many channels does voice only registered users 2015-07-20T15:24:01Z jackdaniel: makes perfect sense 2015-07-20T15:24:01Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T15:24:11Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:24:15Z H4ns: we can as well just wait until the troll interest fades out again. these things happen in waves, mostly in summer, and they usually end by themselves. 2015-07-20T15:25:44Z p_l: theos: I ran out of space on mute list too 2015-07-20T15:25:55Z theos: :D 2015-07-20T15:26:07Z p_l: H4ns: I believe recent spike is from one of the CL projects that got featured on reddit and HN 2015-07-20T15:28:14Z |3b|` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:28:24Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T15:28:36Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:30:10Z shlomo quit (Quit: thanks all) 2015-07-20T15:32:23Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:32:39Z mlrutherford: either /r/haskell or /r/programming recently banned a user for encouraging trolling lisp related sites and communications 2015-07-20T15:33:03Z fe[nl]ix: so nice of them 2015-07-20T15:33:09Z p_l: mlrutherford: link? 2015-07-20T15:33:21Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:33:49Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T15:35:28Z dtw: comp.lang.lisp has had a couple of newbies which seem like trolls. 2015-07-20T15:35:33Z mlrutherford: p_l, it was deleted, but i believe it was /u/anotherlisper who was mad that Clojure discussion was not allowed in CL websites and what not and he got pissed 2015-07-20T15:36:01Z p_l: ... 2015-07-20T15:36:50Z mlrutherford: dtw, its hard to tell who actually needs help and who is there to annoy you sometimes 2015-07-20T15:38:00Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T15:38:12Z dtw: mlrutherford, yes. When they refuse to listen and fail to learn they start looking like trolls. 2015-07-20T15:38:14Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:39:56Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:40:48Z jackdaniel: sometimes they become trolls just out of frustration 2015-07-20T15:42:47Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T15:42:57Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:43:36Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-20T15:44:10Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-20T15:44:12Z yenda- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-20T15:45:16Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:46:49Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:47:14Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T15:47:17Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T15:47:27Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:48:48Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:52:03Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T15:52:18Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:56:54Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T15:57:06Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:58:17Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-20T15:58:32Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-20T15:58:36Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-20T15:58:36Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-20T15:59:27Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T15:59:29Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:01:11Z wukawuka joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:01:41Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T16:01:51Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:02:03Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:05:11Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-20T16:05:47Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T16:06:05Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T16:06:15Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:09:01Z cadadar_ quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-20T16:10:20Z wukawuka: is SBCL died? 2015-07-20T16:10:22Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T16:10:29Z Bike: no, sourceforge is just dumb 2015-07-20T16:10:48Z wukawuka: I can't open their site for 3 days 2015-07-20T16:10:50Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T16:11:00Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:11:11Z wukawuka: why it does'nt moved to own hosting? 2015-07-20T16:11:17Z nyef: Yes, that's because sourcefarce^H^H^H^Horge is broken. 2015-07-20T16:11:25Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T16:11:33Z Bike: because they've been on sourceforge for a while and change is hard 2015-07-20T16:11:51Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:12:32Z wukawuka: what can be hard to move so simple site? ccl has own hosting, even cmucl has own hosting. why sbcl hosted on this sourceforge? 2015-07-20T16:12:54Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T16:12:57Z H4ns: wukawuka: you can become the clisp maintainer and take care of it. 2015-07-20T16:13:13Z wukawuka: H4ns: me? 2015-07-20T16:13:25Z H4ns: wukawuka: yes. you seem to have an interest. 2015-07-20T16:13:48Z wukawuka: H4ns: I don't even used it :) 2015-07-20T16:14:02Z jackdaniel: wukawuka: common-lisp.net will gladly host it, you just have to move stuff there 2015-07-20T16:14:23Z H4ns: wukawuka: then use sbcl or clozure cl or some other well-supported implementation instead. 2015-07-20T16:14:40Z jebes: oh sweet, Lisp in small peices came 2015-07-20T16:14:46Z jebes: was able to grab it for $40 2015-07-20T16:14:59Z wukawuka: H4ns: hm, why clisp is unmaintained? 2015-07-20T16:15:08Z H4ns: wukawuka: because there is no maintainer. 2015-07-20T16:15:28Z wukawuka: H4ns: why it's abandoned then? 2015-07-20T16:15:40Z jackdaniel: stuff doesn't do by itself, nobody has time to offer 2015-07-20T16:15:43Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T16:15:48Z H4ns: wukawuka: the old maintainer lost interest and had other things to spend his free time on. 2015-07-20T16:15:54Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:16:29Z jackdaniel: free software seems to maintain itself without human effort, but it's a fat lie ;) 2015-07-20T16:16:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T16:16:54Z wukawuka: H4ns: it's may be very interesting. 2015-07-20T16:16:54Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:16:58Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-20T16:17:11Z jebes: i thought about picking it up 2015-07-20T16:17:28Z jebes: i do have plenty of free time on my hands... 2015-07-20T16:18:15Z jackdaniel: jebes: very noble :) if you have plenty of it, you may split a little bit of it for ECL development too :P 2015-07-20T16:18:55Z wukawuka: how about performance of clisp vs ecl? 2015-07-20T16:18:58Z jebes: as much as I would love to, I think i'll stick to clisp for now :) 2015-07-20T16:20:22Z jackdaniel: wukawuka: Reiner Joswig did some fine benchmarks for various implementations 2015-07-20T16:20:29Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T16:20:30Z jackdaniel: you can look there for comparison 2015-07-20T16:20:40Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:22:02Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-20T16:22:17Z jackdaniel: s/reiner/rainer/ 2015-07-20T16:23:44Z jebes: anyone have the mercurial repository link handy for clisp? 2015-07-20T16:24:55Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T16:25:05Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:25:54Z wukawuka: thanks 2015-07-20T16:26:10Z wukawuka quit 2015-07-20T16:26:50Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T16:27:53Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:29:40Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T16:30:02Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:30:03Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:30:53Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:31:14Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:33:43Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:34:31Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T16:34:44Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-07-20T16:36:42Z jebes: i got 2.49 from the gnu ftp, i'll start on that tonight :) 2015-07-20T16:37:39Z jackdaniel: good luck :) 2015-07-20T16:37:45Z jebes: thank you. 2015-07-20T16:37:52Z jackdaniel: and thanks for doing it 2015-07-20T16:38:16Z jebes: no problem. 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2015-07-20T17:50:34Z antoszka: np 2015-07-20T17:51:01Z xBlackyII quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-20T17:51:07Z jackdaniel: tps://antoszka.pl/sbcl/sbcl.html 2015-07-20T17:51:20Z jackdaniel: sorry, touchpad doing 2015-07-20T17:51:38Z antoszka: actually, there's possibly more stuff under https://antoszka.pl/sbcl/ 2015-07-20T17:51:51Z antoszka: just copied the whole doc dir. 2015-07-20T17:52:01Z mtd joined #lisp 2015-07-20T17:52:57Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-20T17:53:54Z ghard```` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T17:54:47Z sjl: next question: I'm trying to single-step through a function containing a (do ...) in SBCL. once I (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) this works, but every iteration it says "Evaluating call (+ m 1) with unknown arguments" 2015-07-20T17:54:53Z sjl: why are the arguments unknown? 2015-07-20T17:57:06Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-20T17:59:03Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T17:59:04Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:04:01Z antoszka: I also stuck the latest src/linux-binary in the /sbcl/ dir in case someone needs it promptly. 2015-07-20T18:06:19Z shlomo joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:08:38Z shlomo: I'm trying to use a with-clause and multiple collecting-clauses in a loop. I get "NIL is not a number" error when running the following simplified example: (loop for i in '(1 2 3) with j = (* 10 i) collect j) 2015-07-20T18:09:12Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:09:31Z shlomo: How can I use local variables defined in a with-clause in a collect-clause? 2015-07-20T18:09:59Z scymtym_: shlomo: try for j = … instead of with j = … 2015-07-20T18:09:59Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-20T18:10:05Z Bike: with clauses will be bound only once, you want for j = whatever 2015-07-20T18:10:52Z ggole quit 2015-07-20T18:11:48Z shlomo: scymtym_, Bike: thanks 2015-07-20T18:12:30Z jackdaniel: (mapcar #'(lambda (i) (* 10 i)) '(1 2 3)) 2015-07-20T18:14:11Z Bike: shlomo probably had a more complicated code, hence "simplified" 2015-07-20T18:14:36Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:14:45Z jackdaniel: yeah, and my answer was unrelated to question 2015-07-20T18:15:11Z Bike: it looks related 2015-07-20T18:15:49Z jackdaniel: hm, looks related to posted code, but not the question - sometimes I press enter before I think about it 2015-07-20T18:15:52Z jackdaniel: bad habbit 2015-07-20T18:16:05Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:16:11Z jackdaniel: s/habbit/habit/ 2015-07-20T18:16:19Z otwieracz: bad hobbit 2015-07-20T18:16:21Z otwieracz: ;-) 2015-07-20T18:16:23Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-20T18:16:58Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:22:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-20T18:24:43Z dafunkti_ quit 2015-07-20T18:24:44Z antgreen` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-20T18:27:11Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:28:47Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T18:29:24Z shlomo quit (Quit: thanks all) 2015-07-20T18:31:00Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-20T18:31:02Z yenda- joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:31:18Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:31:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:36:01Z eschulte quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-20T18:36:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T18:36:19Z eschulte joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:37:01Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:38:31Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-20T18:42:08Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:42:38Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:43:13Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:44:36Z larion joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:46:05Z Akshay quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-20T18:47:17Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T18:47:26Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:50:57Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:52:33Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:55:12Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T18:56:27Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-20T18:58:45Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:02:52Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:08:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T19:09:15Z dafunktion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T19:14:51Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-07-20T19:16:51Z therik joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:18:50Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:19:35Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:19:42Z DrWatto joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:20:00Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T19:20:05Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:21:33Z DrWat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T19:22:55Z loz1: is exp evaluated in read-time in `(1 ,exp) ? 2015-07-20T19:23:30Z H4ns: loz1: no. read-time evaluation is triggered by #. 2015-07-20T19:23:49Z loz1: H4ns: what happens after read-time then? 2015-07-20T19:23:52Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:25:10Z bin7me joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:26:56Z H4ns: loz1: evaluation. 2015-07-20T19:27:12Z H4ns: loz1: well, or compilation, depending on where your form actually is. 2015-07-20T19:27:44Z clique is now known as BWV989 2015-07-20T19:29:19Z loz1: H4ns: so ,exp is evaled in current environment? 2015-07-20T19:29:23Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:29:59Z BWV989 left #lisp 2015-07-20T19:30:14Z H4ns: it is evaluated in the lexical environment in which the whole form resides. 2015-07-20T19:32:59Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:33:37Z loz1: H4ns: but when does macros arrive? 2015-07-20T19:33:59Z H4ns: macros do not "arrive", they are expanded. 2015-07-20T19:35:01Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T19:35:14Z antoszka: loz1: `(foo ,bar) is not necessarily macro related, it's just a shorthand notation for having certain elements of the lists evaluated and other not. Even though it's frequently seen in macros, there's nothing special about it. 2015-07-20T19:36:29Z BWV988 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:37:12Z antoszka: loz1: Essentially is the same as if you wrote (list 'foo bar). 2015-07-20T19:37:51Z antoszka: (though there may be some subtleties regarding literal list reuse, not important here) 2015-07-20T19:38:25Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T19:39:01Z antoszka: And macros will be expanded before compilation. 2015-07-20T19:39:12Z loz1: antoszka: but after read? 2015-07-20T19:39:18Z antoszka: Yes. 2015-07-20T19:41:21Z loz1: hm 2015-07-20T19:51:35Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-20T19:52:59Z loz1: looks like I can expand backquotes and commas at read time 2015-07-20T19:53:18Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-20T19:53:31Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:00:32Z BWV988 left #lisp 2015-07-20T20:02:46Z therik quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T20:05:31Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:05:36Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:07:01Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T20:09:26Z H4ns: loz1: do you have some kind of magic ability to make common lisp implementations do certain things? 2015-07-20T20:09:51Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T20:10:16Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:10:26Z jackdaniel: #.`(,hi) ;? :D 2015-07-20T20:12:19Z remi`bd: :D 2015-07-20T20:15:00Z loz1: H4ns: yep, by implementing my own (uncommon) list :) 2015-07-20T20:15:07Z loz1: lisp* 2015-07-20T20:16:08Z redcoat joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:18:25Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T20:22:56Z taij33n- quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-20T20:23:15Z taij33n joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:23:57Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:24:45Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T20:28:54Z larion joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:30:39Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-20T20:35:52Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:36:05Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:37:26Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T20:38:44Z aeth: One thing I'd like to see in a CL editor is a bit of gamification to lower the learning curve of using emacs or vim style keys. 2015-07-20T20:39:03Z ronh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T20:39:17Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T20:40:39Z aeth: It can't really be done in emacs or vim like it could be done in a 3D capable editor. 2015-07-20T20:41:15Z jsgrant- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T20:41:33Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:42:01Z wukawuka joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:43:26Z redcoat: "3D capable"? 2015-07-20T20:43:50Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:44:07Z jackdaniel: http://hellsgate.pl/public/cards00.pdf <- business card result (logo is only placeholder, need to hire designer for that I suppose) 2015-07-20T20:48:44Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-20T20:51:26Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-20T20:52:03Z yenda- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T20:55:05Z stereosphere joined #lisp 2015-07-20T20:57:06Z aeth: redcoat: so the tutorial can have visual effects 2015-07-20T20:57:15Z wukawuka: the CCL documentation says "Notably absent is support for the generic function invocation protocol." Can anybody explain what does it means? 2015-07-20T20:57:33Z Bike: Could you provide the context? 2015-07-20T20:58:04Z wukawuka: http://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html#clos-metaobject-protocol 2015-07-20T20:58:56Z Bike: I suppose it means like it says in the table. no make-method-lambda, compute-applicable-methods, etc. 2015-07-20T20:59:02Z Bike: if you get closer mop that's probably papered over 2015-07-20T21:00:01Z wukawuka: Bike: thanks. how about SBCL? 2015-07-20T21:00:13Z wukawuka: Bike: does it supports full of MOP? 2015-07-20T21:00:23Z Bike: it supports most of that stuff, yeah. 2015-07-20T21:00:41Z Bike: as far as i remember, there is no implementation that's "perfect", but MOP was intended as a provisional protocol anyway. 2015-07-20T21:00:54Z Bike: you should get closer to mop, it covers most of the differences. 2015-07-20T21:01:02Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-20T21:01:10Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T21:01:48Z wukawuka: Bike: okay, but does it means that it's can be problematic to write cross-platform CLOS-based software? 2015-07-20T21:01:54Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-20T21:02:23Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-20T21:02:26Z Bike: Oh, not really. MOP is more esoteric. All the implementations support regular CLOS fine. 2015-07-20T21:02:52Z wukawuka: Bike: thank you 2015-07-20T21:04:00Z malbertife_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-20T21:06:01Z nightfly quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T21:06:59Z badkins quit 2015-07-20T21:07:26Z dafunktion quit 2015-07-20T21:07:56Z nightfly joined #lisp 2015-07-20T21:07:59Z wukawuka: is there are non-blocking IO library for CL? (I don't want to use cl-async, because it's binding to libuv) 2015-07-20T21:08:49Z PuercoPop: well it used to use libev afair, maybe you can use the old version? (Why is libuv undesirable?) 2015-07-20T21:08:51Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-20T21:09:07Z wukawuka: PuercoPop: I'm looking for library implemented in pure CL 2015-07-20T21:09:58Z wukawuka: PuercoPop: AFAIK there are serve-event for CMUCL 2015-07-20T21:10:37Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-20T21:10:50Z wukawuka: PuercoPop: but it's available for CMUCL/SBCL only 2015-07-20T21:11:26Z Guest79639 left #lisp 2015-07-20T21:11:41Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-20T21:14:16Z PuercoPop: serve-event uses ffi as well. So it is not 'pure-cl'. I'd take cl-async as it has the async version of let/map/etc. 2015-07-20T21:16:19Z Bike: if it's using libuv it's presumably using some kind of ffi 2015-07-20T21:16:42Z wukawuka: PuercoPop: does it works on CCL? 2015-07-20T21:18:43Z mobius-e_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T21:19:37Z pjb: jebes: it's http://hg.code.sf.net/p/clisp/clisp ; but since it's on sf.net… 2015-07-20T21:22:07Z ceryo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T21:22:14Z jebes: ah, i was hoping it would still be clonable :/ 2015-07-20T21:25:31Z pjb: aeth: It'd be trivial to add gamification to emacs. Give medals each time the user runs a new command! :-) 2015-07-20T21:26:33Z Bike: M-x tetris, isn't it 2015-07-20T21:27:28Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T21:27:35Z PuercoPop: wukawuka: yes, afaik the author uses ccl on windows. 2015-07-20T21:28:33Z wukawuka: PuercoPop: thank you 2015-07-20T21:28:49Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-20T21:31:14Z aeth: pjb: While it would be trivial to add something to emacs, adding something that looks nice is non-trivial. Afaik, emacs is a terminal application first, with the other features bolted on years later. 2015-07-20T21:31:37Z bin7me quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-20T21:32:06Z aeth: Gamification, for instance, is a good instance of something that doesn't work out well in the tiling system that emacs uses. Even SLIME runs into issues when things like e.g. error message pop up over a tile of source code you'd like to be able to read. 2015-07-20T21:32:14Z ehu1 is now known as ehu 2015-07-20T21:33:26Z wukawuka quit 2015-07-20T21:35:25Z aeth: What you'd probably want to do in gamification is add effects over the buffer itself, ironically sort of like an Office Assistant like Clippy except not annoying. 2015-07-20T21:36:58Z _sjs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-20T21:39:23Z aeth: If you e.g. could have a buffer of non-uniform width (I don't think this is possible in emacs?) then you could on a right edge of that buffer at either the top or the bottom put some sort of guide so e.g. if you M-x something it would show visually how to do the command via a keyboard shortcut instead in a very large/noticeable way. 2015-07-20T21:40:08Z aeth: This sort of better feature discoverability in a UI that's not possible under GNU Emacs would give it an actual use case. 2015-07-20T21:42:32Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T21:42:43Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-20T21:44:50Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-20T21:44:59Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T21:45:50Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-20T21:49:10Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-20T21:53:28Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-20T21:54:56Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-20T21:56:03Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-07-20T21:56:41Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-20T21:57:42Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-20T21:57:51Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-20T21:59:13Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-20T21:59:20Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-20T21:59:21Z pjb: jebes: You may try hg clone http://mirror.informatimago.com/repos/clisp-hg/ 2015-07-20T22:02:12Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-20T22:02:40Z pjb: mirror.informatimago.com is new, it may take an hour to diffuse. 2015-07-20T22:04:43Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T22:05:43Z pjb: aeth: Gamification is not a question of nice graphics. It's a question of enticing the user with ludicruous motives. 2015-07-20T22:06:31Z pjb: aeth: Check for example, the adventure shell: http://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiveXshells.html 2015-07-20T22:06:59Z pjb: You could provide in emacs an emacs exploring mode that would gamify learning emacs features. 2015-07-20T22:07:04Z aeth: pjb: yes but I'm trying to think of things that GNU Emacs cannot do nicely that a CL editor could. 2015-07-20T22:07:19Z aeth: So while visuals aren't strictly necessary, they'd be necessary outside of GNU Emacs to differentiate. 2015-07-20T22:08:00Z pjb: There's no nice mickey picture on New Horizon. 2015-07-20T22:08:25Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-20T22:09:17Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-20T22:10:17Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-20T22:11:22Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-07-20T22:11:58Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-20T22:12:34Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-20T22:22:23Z z0d joined 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minutes :) 2015-07-20T23:32:05Z mc40 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-20T23:33:31Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-20T23:38:51Z pjb: Or you may point to hubble.informatimago.com as DNS server if it doesn't spread fast enough. 2015-07-20T23:39:49Z pjb: But it should be there, it was one hour and half ago. 2015-07-20T23:40:13Z jebes: yeah, its there now 2015-07-20T23:41:02Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-20T23:43:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-20T23:49:19Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-20T23:50:37Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-20T23:52:17Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-20T23:55:29Z spacebat joined #lisp 2015-07-20T23:57:14Z spacebat: I was inspecting a hash-table yesterday in slime, and really wanted to edit one of the entries, but couldn't find a way to do it (other than evaluating an expression that gets the hash and then setf gethash, like at the repl) 2015-07-20T23:57:37Z spacebat: is there a way to edit a value in the inspector? 2015-07-20T23:58:49Z pjb: In the ccl inspector, there's the (:s n v) command to set a value in the inspected object. 2015-07-20T23:59:42Z spacebat: I'm in a slime/lispworks environment 2015-07-21T00:00:01Z spacebat: use sbcl at home, but ccl is nifty 2015-07-21T00:00:25Z pjb: But indeed, not in slime; anyways, even the ccl inspector lacks a command to add or remove entries in a hash-table. 2015-07-21T00:00:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-21T00:00:33Z pjb: I guess you'd have to write your own inspector… 2015-07-21T00:01:19Z spacebat: thanks, I guess I'd always assumed it was possible, but that was probably projecting some expectation from what I've read of lisp machines of yore 2015-07-21T00:02:00Z pjb: I imagine on the Lisp Machine, the inspector let you do that. 2015-07-21T00:02:06Z pjb: Yep. 2015-07-21T00:04:31Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-21T00:04:47Z someone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T00:05:19Z someon joined #lisp 2015-07-21T00:05:31Z 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2015-07-21T03:32:51Z beach: nyef: Any progress on NQ-CLIM? 2015-07-21T03:33:20Z qr42 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T03:33:24Z nyef: Not much. just fixed the default MEDIUM-INK to be +FOREGROUND-INK+ instead of +BLACK+. 2015-07-21T03:34:20Z beach: OK. 2015-07-21T03:35:24Z nyef: If I still haven't managed to dig into the event handling by tomorrow evening, I'll probably start in on the line-style stuff. 2015-07-21T03:36:08Z beach: As I recall, gilberth did that for McCLIM. It is pretty messy actually. 2015-07-21T03:36:46Z beach: You need to take the line style into account when you create output records, so you need to have a precise idea of the dimensions of the final line. 2015-07-21T03:36:50Z nyef: That's... not exactly comforting. 2015-07-21T03:37:13Z nyef: Oh, what a nuisance. 2015-07-21T03:38:06Z beach: But maybe you don't need that part of it yet. 2015-07-21T03:40:24Z nyef: That I don't. No output records yet. 2015-07-21T03:41:47Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-21T03:45:15Z nyef: Actually, there's an upside to that: If you over-estimate the bounds, it's not critical. If you under-estimate the bounds, it'll look wrong. 2015-07-21T03:45:38Z beach: Right. 2015-07-21T03:46:10Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T03:46:36Z beach: I think gilberth attempted to get as tight bounds as possible. 2015-07-21T03:50:34Z beach: I did a total rewrite of the SICL boot process. Since phase 1 now takes less than 15 seconds, I can afford to polish it. It is now a lot more maintainable. Next, I'll rework phase 2 in the same spirit. 2015-07-21T03:52:53Z Fare: beach: what changed? 2015-07-21T03:53:25Z beach: In the speed? Caching mainly. I need several first-class global environments, and I now avoid creating each one from scratch. 2015-07-21T03:55:39Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-21T03:55:45Z beach: Actually, the first time I start the host, it takes a few minutes to fill the cache, but from then on, it only takes 15 seconds to do phase 1. So it will help me when I polish the boot process, but it will still take a lot longer when someone wants to build SICL from scratch. 2015-07-21T03:57:35Z nyef: Sounds good, though. 2015-07-21T03:57:54Z nyef: Provided that there's no cross-contamination from using cached environments. 2015-07-21T03:58:35Z beach: Right. That's why I have several. The boot process needs to tweak each one in slightly different ways. 2015-07-21T04:01:16Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T04:01:25Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T04:01:28Z kp666 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-21T04:04:22Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-21T04:10:11Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-21T04:12:30Z beach: In case anyone is interested, the caching works like this: When a top-level form is compiled, an anonymous first-class function is produced. This function is independent of the environment it will ultimately be "tied" to, so this function will be what a FASL contains once I have FASLs. 2015-07-21T04:12:38Z beach: In order to "tie" the function to some environment E, and thereby producing the effect that reflects the semantics of the top-level form, the anonymous function must be called with arguments that the result of evaluating some forms in E. 2015-07-21T04:12:40Z beach: As it turns out, compiling the function in the host takes a long time whereas the "tie" process is fast. Caching consist of keeping the result of the compilation, and just do a different "tie" for each environment. 2015-07-21T04:13:36Z beach: Sorry about the rant. Just taking advantage of the relative silence. 2015-07-21T04:17:34Z redcoat: That sounds like dynamic scope. Am I mistaken? 2015-07-21T04:17:49Z beach: I think you are mistaken. :) 2015-07-21T04:18:39Z beach: In what way does it sound like dynamic scope? 2015-07-21T04:19:07Z Bike: replace "tie" with "bind" and it's pretty much, well, late binding 2015-07-21T04:19:27Z beach: Sounds right. 2015-07-21T04:19:34Z redcoat: Late binding is not dynamic scope? 2015-07-21T04:19:43Z Bike: i'm agreeing with you, redcoat 2015-07-21T04:20:01Z redcoat: Oh, ok 2015-07-21T04:20:14Z beach: Maybe I am misunderstanding what redcoat means by "dynamic scope". 2015-07-21T04:20:17Z Bike: (lambda () (foo x)) => "oh, gotta make sure foo is linked to the right thing in the binary" or "gotta look up foo when the function is run and not before because it's dynamically bound" 2015-07-21T04:20:32Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-21T04:20:33Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-21T04:21:08Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-21T04:21:12Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-07-21T04:21:26Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-21T04:21:47Z redcoat: beach: When you talk about producing an anonymous function, and then tying it at some later point in time to an environment. Its runtime semantics would depend on the environment you tie it to. 2015-07-21T04:21:47Z beach: redcoat: So I guess you are right. 2015-07-21T04:22:09Z beach: redcoat: That's correct. 2015-07-21T04:22:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T04:22:27Z beach: Just like loading a FASL in any old Common Lisp implementation. 2015-07-21T04:23:33Z redcoat: Huh. I never thought of it that way. 2015-07-21T04:23:40Z beach: What I am doing is very similar to loading a FASL several times, each time in a different environment. 2015-07-21T04:23:43Z Bike: yes, linkers are interesting things. 2015-07-21T04:24:09Z redcoat: I see. Okay. 2015-07-21T04:24:26Z beach: The main difference here is that I never produce a byte stream to actually write it to a file. 2015-07-21T04:25:01Z beach: It saves my having to come up with a FASL format that is specific to the boot process. 2015-07-21T04:25:20Z redcoat: Right. So no save-lisp-and-die yet? 2015-07-21T04:25:27Z beach: Right. :) 2015-07-21T04:25:39Z beach: This is all done in the host Common Lisp implementation. 2015-07-21T04:25:45Z beach: SICL doesn't exist yet. 2015-07-21T04:26:36Z Bike: i've been thinking of how to design a fasl format... it's kind of boring though. kinda wanna just make it an ELF 2015-07-21T04:27:27Z beach: For SICL, I am thinking of making it a long sequence of native instructions. To load it, mmap() it, execute the instructions, then munmap() it. 2015-07-21T04:27:33Z redcoat is now known as kristof 2015-07-21T04:28:26Z Bike: ...straightforward, i guess 2015-07-21T04:28:44Z beach: That way, I don't have to read the ELF spec. :) 2015-07-21T04:29:40Z kristof: beach: ...Is straight mmapping user instructions safe? 2015-07-21T04:29:46Z kristof: I don't even know what I mean by safe. 2015-07-21T04:29:51Z Zhivago: Well, given PIC code and correct alignment, and ... 2015-07-21T04:30:15Z Zhivago: But by that point, you perhaps might as well have just generated a function normally in the .so. 2015-07-21T04:30:31Z Zhivago: In which case you'd want dlopen() and dlsym() rather than mmap. 2015-07-21T04:30:37Z kristof: ^ 2015-07-21T04:30:50Z Zhivago: But otherwise it would be largely equivalent, except for the munmap. 2015-07-21T04:31:20Z beach: I don't want to make the FASL code part of the code in the system, hence the munmap(). 2015-07-21T04:31:23Z Zhivago: There are also issues with executable segments that vary across architectures. 2015-07-21T04:31:37Z Zhivago: Sure, that's understandable. 2015-07-21T04:31:50Z Zhivago: dlclose should do the trick there. 2015-07-21T04:32:09Z beach: Yeah. 2015-07-21T04:32:33Z beach: The main difference is that in order to do dlopen() I would need to conform to the specification of the file format. 2015-07-21T04:32:52Z Zhivago: Well, regardless, you're going to need to conform to a bunch of architecture specific crap. 2015-07-21T04:33:09Z Zhivago: So you might as well encapsulate that in the land of elf or dwarf or whatever. 2015-07-21T04:33:15Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T04:33:30Z Zhivago: And presumably your compiler should be able to generate it. 2015-07-21T04:33:37Z beach: I might do that once a bunch more interesting stuff is taken care of. 2015-07-21T04:33:59Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-21T04:34:42Z frkout quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-21T04:34:45Z frkout_ 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-21T09:16:57Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-21T09:17:28Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T09:18:07Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-21T09:18:11Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-21T09:18:38Z Guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-21T09:21:57Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-21T09:22:23Z wickedtrippy joined #lisp 2015-07-21T09:22:42Z wickedtrippy: Okay, so, here's my story: I'm a 17-year-old, beginner, hobbyist programmer who wants to learn the logic behind the craft of programming and gain a deep understanding of it, as I think that is the most vital requirement to actually making good programs and essentially obtaining to option to spread into other sub-branches of the science. To do this, I've sought a good book, and was constantly told to read one titled "Structure and 2015-07-21T09:22:45Z wickedtrippy: and given the parenthesized link (http://xuanji.appspot.com/isicp/) to achieve this task. My problem is, I've been dabbling with languages like Java, C, and C++ because I've heard that they are more prominent than that Lisp variant used in the aforementioned book -- Scheme. I'd personally like to co-learn a language with a bit more relevance than Scheme, but at the same time, would be more than willing to learn with this book usin 2015-07-21T09:22:48Z wickedtrippy: it is true that it will impart a deep, ingrained understanding of computer science and principal fundamentals of programming via Scheme (that I hope will enable me to create interesting things). This aside, I've also been reluctant to read the book because of its MIT origins, as I feel it could be hyped and praised so much only due to that fact. My question is: Considering the above information I've given you about myself and my g 2015-07-21T09:23:21Z H4ns: wickedtrippy: this channel is about common lisp. 2015-07-21T09:23:35Z schjetne: minion: tell wickedtrippy about gentle introduction 2015-07-21T09:23:36Z minion: wickedtrippy: you speak nonsense 2015-07-21T09:23:45Z H4ns: :D 2015-07-21T09:23:49Z schjetne: that was unintended 2015-07-21T09:24:04Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-21T09:25:14Z schjetne: How do I get minion to tell users about different books again? 2015-07-21T09:25:31Z p_l: minion: tell wickedtrippy about gentle 2015-07-21T09:25:31Z minion: wickedtrippy: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-07-21T09:25:42Z schjetne: Ah, it's "gentle", thanks 2015-07-21T09:25:51Z p_l: as for general programming in Common Lisp, I recommend PCL 2015-07-21T09:25:57Z p_l: minion: tell wickedtrippy about pcl 2015-07-21T09:25:57Z minion: wickedtrippy: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-21T09:26:05Z wickedtrippy: I thought SICP was the greatest compsci book of all-time, plus a Lisp one. 2015-07-21T09:26:10Z schjetne: wickedtrippy: I find that book a far better ab initio work for programming. If you already have experience, PCL is the way to go 2015-07-21T09:26:21Z schjetne: wickedtrippy: SICP is Scheme, not Lisp 2015-07-21T09:27:14Z p_l: also, SICP is an introductory book to programming in general 2015-07-21T09:27:20Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-21T09:27:37Z p_l: a... weird one compared to some others. Still recommended :) 2015-07-21T09:27:44Z wickedtrippy: I thought Scheme was a Lisp, just not Common Lisp.(?) 2015-07-21T09:28:17Z schjetne: Scheme has a lot of similarities, but lacks a lot of important features 2015-07-21T09:28:22Z H4ns: wickedtrippy: this channel is specifically about common lisp 2015-07-21T09:28:25Z p_l: yes, it's just this channel is focused on common lisp 2015-07-21T09:28:35Z p_l: historical reasons etc. ;) 2015-07-21T09:28:43Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-21T09:28:55Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-21T09:29:41Z wickedtrippy: But, using SICP to learn Scheme will more than likely make learning (Common) Lisp easier...right? 2015-07-21T09:29:51Z H4ns: wickedtrippy: not necessarily 2015-07-21T09:30:36Z p_l: wickedtrippy: IMO, learning from SICP will probably give you better understanding of some areas of programming, which could be applied to many things 2015-07-21T09:30:38Z Vityok: however, PCL is about practical aspects of programming, whereas SICP is more about computer-science,theory of programming 2015-07-21T09:30:53Z p_l: to be honest, SICP spends something like one chapter on teaching a language or so 2015-07-21T09:32:26Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-21T09:33:52Z renopt: scheme is a fairly different from common lisp 2015-07-21T09:34:09Z Niac quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-21T09:34:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T09:35:27Z renopt: they look similar, have lambdas, and the designs fork from there heh 2015-07-21T09:35:28Z schjetne: SICP is indeed a great computer science work (I have the book myself), but I feel the Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation gets you started much faster writing programs, and I think it teaches you a much more powerful language. You can probably do the two books in parallel, neither will be wasted time or knowledge. 2015-07-21T09:36:23Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-21T09:38:06Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-21T09:39:36Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T09:42:38Z wickedtrippy left #lisp 2015-07-21T09:42:57Z pjb: wickedtrippy: sicp IS NOT about scheme, it's about programming. 2015-07-21T09:43:34Z pjb: wickedtrippy: therefore you can read it without afterthought. 2015-07-21T09:44:59Z pjb: p_l: sicp doesn't spend any chapter on the language. It only has 4 chapters, it wouldn't have the time to teach scheme! 2015-07-21T09:45:06Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-21T09:45:41Z pjb: p_l: How to Design Programs, which teaches scheme, has 43 chapters! 2015-07-21T09:45:57Z p_l: pjb: ahh, mistook it with the lectures - IIRC it was something like "one lecture to give you enough scheme to go through the rest of the material" 2015-07-21T09:46:11Z p_l: at least that's the way it was described by someone who went through SICP the course 2015-07-21T09:46:20Z p_l: (not just the textbook) 2015-07-21T09:48:37Z p_l: http://franz.com/careers/software_db.lhtml 2015-07-21T09:53:05Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-07-21T09:53:42Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-21T09:54:37Z Guthur`: That's a pretty hefty set of requirements for that position 2015-07-21T09:55:31Z pjb: It's the silicon valley. 2015-07-21T09:57:27Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T10:00:12Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:00:59Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:01:49Z dbh joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:06:43Z sepi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T10:13:22Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:15:12Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:18:32Z rritoch: Where can I find the schema for package names? Specifically I just need to know what the allowed character sequences are, including what characters are considered whitespace. 2015-07-21T10:20:06Z jackdaniel: anything valid for symbol will do I think 2015-07-21T10:20:09Z fe[nl]ix: rritoch: a package name is a symbol 2015-07-21T10:20:15Z H4ns: rritoch: there is no schema, just convention. use alphanumeric characters, dashes and dots. 2015-07-21T10:20:24Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:20:43Z wukawuka joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:20:46Z wukawuka: Occasionally I find ^L sequences in the Lisp sources. What is this? 2015-07-21T10:20:55Z fe[nl]ix: rritoch: I'd use [a-z0-9./-] 2015-07-21T10:21:02Z remi`bd: wukawuka: a semantic separator 2015-07-21T10:21:06Z fe[nl]ix: wukawuka: page separator 2015-07-21T10:21:26Z remi`bd: it’s an old-school practice to mark the separation between different parts of your code 2015-07-21T10:21:35Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-21T10:21:56Z wukawuka: oh, so it's obsolete? 2015-07-21T10:21:59Z remi`bd: nope 2015-07-21T10:22:00Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:22:06Z remi`bd: I’m using it right now 2015-07-21T10:22:20Z remi`bd: (C-q C-l to insert one in Emacs) 2015-07-21T10:22:27Z schjetne: wukawuka: you can put your point on one of these and use M-x describe-char to see what they do 2015-07-21T10:23:02Z Akshay_ joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:23:05Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:23:06Z remi`bd: wukawuka: see http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt 2015-07-21T10:23:10Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T10:23:15Z synchromesh: ^L is ASCII 12, "form feed". It tells your line printer to advance to the start of the next page. 2015-07-21T10:24:09Z quasus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T10:24:18Z wukawuka: remi`bd: thanks!!! 2015-07-21T10:25:20Z remi`bd: yes synchromesh, but printing your code using a line printer is not really a common thing nowadays, isn’t it? 2015-07-21T10:25:42Z rritoch: @fe[nl]ix Thanks, I didn't know / was allowed, I see underscore (_) seems to be allowed, but is it frowned upon? 2015-07-21T10:25:53Z jackdaniel: so #'print is usless :D 2015-07-21T10:26:00Z H4ns: rritoch: all characters are allowed. 2015-07-21T10:26:39Z rritoch: H4ns: What about whitespace? Is there some way to embed whitespace? 2015-07-21T10:26:42Z schjetne: You can even name your package 2015-07-21T10:26:50Z jackdaniel: |package name with whitespace| 2015-07-21T10:27:00Z H4ns: rritoch: you should read a good lisp book. 2015-07-21T10:27:20Z schjetne: Or ^L if your IRC client throws away unprintables 2015-07-21T10:27:53Z rritoch: jackdaniel: Thanks, now that totally destroys any pre-conceived ideas I had about namespaces. 2015-07-21T10:28:14Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:28:17Z fe[nl]ix: rritoch: don't use underscores 2015-07-21T10:28:18Z synchromesh: remi`bd: Of course; I'm not suggesting people continue the practice, just explaining the origin of that particular sigil. 2015-07-21T10:28:19Z jackdaniel: hue hue 2015-07-21T10:28:23Z rritoch: err, package names 2015-07-21T10:28:50Z jackdaniel: read about symbols 2015-07-21T10:28:54Z jackdaniel: in cl 2015-07-21T10:29:39Z vossi joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:29:40Z H4ns: i wish i could refer everyone to edi's book, it's chapter on packages and symbols is rather neat. 2015-07-21T10:29:45Z H4ns: its 2015-07-21T10:29:48Z H4ns: *blush* 2015-07-21T10:30:03Z fe[nl]ix: H4ns: you had a preview, I gather ? 2015-07-21T10:30:25Z jackdaniel: rritoch: (make-symbol "my string woo") creates symbol from string 2015-07-21T10:30:34Z H4ns: fe[nl]ix: right, you can blame me for not having found errors that you find. 2015-07-21T10:31:00Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha 2015-07-21T10:31:08Z |3b| thought package names were strings 2015-07-21T10:31:40Z fe[nl]ix: |3b|: until how long ago ? 2015-07-21T10:31:59Z |3b|: token parsing rules limit which strings are useful though 2015-07-21T10:32:14Z rjmacready joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:32:23Z |3b|: fe[nl]ix: until someone said they were symbols, and then again after reading clhs 2015-07-21T10:32:27Z |3b|: clhs 11.1.1.1 2015-07-21T10:32:28Z specbot: Package Names and Nicknames: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aaa.htm 2015-07-21T10:32:38Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-21T10:32:39Z fe[nl]ix: although I think you're right 2015-07-21T10:33:10Z fe[nl]ix: defpackage takes a string designator, though everybody uses symbols there 2015-07-21T10:33:37Z fe[nl]ix: you can't have two packages named :foo and cl-user::foo 2015-07-21T10:33:58Z fe[nl]ix: oops, my mistake :) 2015-07-21T10:34:04Z Firedancer: Is this Practical Common Lisp book good for someone who has experience with other languages, just not with the lisp family? 2015-07-21T10:34:19Z H4ns: Firedancer: yes. it is best for people with previous OO experience. 2015-07-21T10:34:39Z |3b|: actually, i guess with || you can use arbitrary package names 2015-07-21T10:36:41Z Guthur`: H4ns: I didn't know Edi was writing a CL book, do you know when it will be published? 2015-07-21T10:37:27Z jackdaniel: I think there is pre-order on amazon already 2015-07-21T10:37:44Z jackdaniel: so soon I presume 2015-07-21T10:37:53Z H4ns: i don't know when it will be published 2015-07-21T10:39:29Z Guthur`: appears it might be Dec 1 according to Amazon 2015-07-21T10:40:30Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T10:40:40Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T10:44:18Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:44:24Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T10:44:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-21T10:45:36Z wukawuka: guys, does CCL supports for event-loop-style programming (like SBCL's serve-event)? 2015-07-21T10:47:34Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T10:47:41Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T10:48:55Z loke: wukawuka: what is SBCL's "serve-event". I never heard about that. 2015-07-21T10:49:22Z wukawuka: loke: it's extension derived from CMUCL 2015-07-21T10:49:33Z loke: wukawuka: Which package is it in? 2015-07-21T10:49:50Z H4ns: loke: serve-event is cmucl's i/o multiplexing mechanism that was used by its multiprocessing implementation (a.k.a. green threads) 2015-07-21T10:50:08Z wukawuka: loke: it in src/code/serve-event.lisp 2015-07-21T10:50:10Z loke: H4ns: I wasn't aware that SBCL had such thing. 2015-07-21T10:50:29Z H4ns: wukawuka: no, ccl does not have such a thing. they have moved from green to native threads many years ago and abandoned all event loop based code that they had in that process. 2015-07-21T10:50:54Z H4ns: wukawuka: there are several asynchronous programming libraries available though, and i guess some of them run on ccl as well. 2015-07-21T10:51:26Z H4ns: loke: i think sbcl still supports serve-event to some extent for non-threaded environments. 2015-07-21T10:51:40Z wukawuka: H4ns: bad, I don't want to use monsters like cl-async :( 2015-07-21T10:52:03Z H4ns: wukawuka: there is no free lunch 2015-07-21T10:52:06Z remi`bd: :D 2015-07-21T10:52:19Z loke: H4ns: well, it's there. But it's not only in SB-INT. It's also not even exported. 2015-07-21T10:52:51Z loke: wukawuka: Why don't you fire off some worker threads and pull from a queue? 2015-07-21T10:53:10Z wukawuka: loke: I need non-blocking IO 2015-07-21T10:53:49Z loke: wukawuka: why? 2015-07-21T10:54:07Z loke: wukawuka: You can always use IOLIB:EVENT-BASE to select from pultiple fd's 2015-07-21T10:57:13Z wukawuka: loke: maybe I'm anal about it, but I don't feel good to use any kind of "universal" wrappers. Ideally, I just want to go with my favorite implementation, but as H4ns pointed, there is no free lunch. (Does he means that I need to but LispWorks?) 2015-07-21T10:57:38Z wukawuka: buy 2015-07-21T10:57:55Z loke: wukawuka: There is SB-UNIX:UNIX-POLL 2015-07-21T10:58:08Z H4ns: i did not mean to imply that - just that you'll have to make tradeoffs no matter what you do 2015-07-21T10:58:18Z H4ns: ccl allows you to call select(2) as well. 2015-07-21T10:58:23Z loke: But IOLIB:EVENT-BASE is the same thing, and uses the same mechanism to call into the underlying syscall 2015-07-21T10:59:18Z H4ns: only that iolib requires you to compile libfixposix, which can be a considerable nuisance. 2015-07-21T10:59:48Z loke: H4ns: I agree 2015-07-21T10:59:57Z loke: H4ns: that thing truely pisses me off 2015-07-21T11:01:08Z wukawuka: H4ns: thanks! i'd also prefer to use FFI because I don't need cross-platform program for everyone on the planet 2015-07-21T11:01:34Z loke: wukawuka: But that's exactly what iolib does 2015-07-21T11:02:01Z wukawuka: loke: okay, but why I need to use iolib if I can just call C? 2015-07-21T11:02:15Z jackdaniel: to not reinvent wheel in hacky manner 2015-07-21T11:02:19Z H4ns: loke: just that iolib requires libfixposix, and ... oh wait, i said that 2015-07-21T11:02:35Z H4ns: there is nothing hacky about calling implementation-specific functions if one so desires. 2015-07-21T11:02:47Z jackdaniel: H4ns: I meant custom ffi calls 2015-07-21T11:03:08Z wukawuka: jackdaniel: want do you mean by "custom"? 2015-07-21T11:03:29Z jackdaniel: hand-crafted defcfuns spread over the code 2015-07-21T11:04:04Z wukawuka: jackdaniel: I'm programmer, not a sucker. Why should I bother? :) 2015-07-21T11:05:02Z jackdaniel: I believe our definitions of "sucker" and "programmer" are just the oposite 2015-07-21T11:06:56Z wukawuka: jackdaniel: the Common Lisp does not provide me functional I need, and the CCL does not provide it too. But CCL provide me FFI. So why it is so "hackish"? 2015-07-21T11:07:33Z H4ns: wukawuka: it is not 2015-07-21T11:08:21Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T11:08:55Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-21T11:09:00Z yenda- joined #lisp 2015-07-21T11:09:12Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-21T11:10:06Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-21T11:10:07Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-21T11:11:39Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-21T11:11:41Z dbh left #lisp 2015-07-21T11:16:57Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-21T11:17:51Z rjmacready quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T11:20:50Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-21T11:22:13Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-21T11:26:41Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-21T11:31:43Z rritoch: Can anyone explain why this function isn't working? https://github.com/rritoch/abclp/blob/master/src/main/abclp/META-INF/abcl/abclp/help/help.lisp#L14-L18 the documentation function is always returning null. 2015-07-21T11:33:06Z H4ns: rritoch: the package name is not part of a symbol's name 2015-07-21T11:34:06Z rritoch: H4ns: So what is the procedure for getting the docstring from a foreign package that's loaded but not listed in the ":use" clause? 2015-07-21T11:34:41Z |3b|: clhs find-symbol 2015-07-21T11:34:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_s.htm 2015-07-21T11:35:00Z |3b|: and probably find-package 2015-07-21T11:35:19Z guna joined #lisp 2015-07-21T11:35:33Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-21T11:35:40Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-21T11:35:42Z |3b|: make-symbol always makes a new symbol, which is exactly what you don't want there 2015-07-21T11:35:56Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-21T11:36:11Z rritoch: |3b|: Thanks, that does make sense. 2015-07-21T11:36:40Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-21T11:44:39Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-21T11:45:28Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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This code wasn't designed for use outside a jar so it's misbehaving 2015-07-21T13:02:33Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T13:03:19Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:04:12Z yenda- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-21T13:06:14Z |3b|: rritoch: does load-package return a package object? 2015-07-21T13:06:26Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:06:59Z |3b|: and are you sure the symbols you are looking up have 'function documentation? 2015-07-21T13:07:06Z rritoch: |3b|: Yes, it returns the result of find-package 2015-07-21T13:07:38Z rritoch: |3b|: Yes, help is one of the functions which you can see has a docstring 2015-07-21T13:08:08Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:11:01Z |3b|: hmm 2015-07-21T13:11:16Z |3b|: also, don't pass arbitrary strings as format control strings 2015-07-21T13:12:45Z rritoch: I've added in some changes to better support testing in the REPL but this is leading to a new bug, not sure if it's related or not. 2015-07-21T13:14:24Z |3b|: might also try adding a (format t "~s" (documentation 'help t)) to help, if you can't get stuff working in repl 2015-07-21T13:17:34Z rritoch: Here is the error I received in REPL http://pastebin.com/pgMJWyU5 2015-07-21T13:17:37Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:18:03Z rritoch: Clearly something fishy is going on with the documentation function 2015-07-21T13:18:38Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-07-21T13:20:01Z H4ns: clearly 2015-07-21T13:20:28Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:20:45Z Neet quit 2015-07-21T13:20:57Z Neet joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:23:32Z rritoch: Is there some procedure for loading a package and ensuring that after loading the current package doesn't change? 2015-07-21T13:24:09Z rritoch: The only thing I can think of is that in the middle of let* I'm loading the package and maybe that's the true source of my problem(s). 2015-07-21T13:25:03Z rritoch: In REPL test the packages were pre-loaded so these are probably unrelated bugs. 2015-07-21T13:25:33Z Neet quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-21T13:25:49Z Neet joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:28:14Z smokeink quit (Quit: peace) 2015-07-21T13:28:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:30:30Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T13:31:29Z |3b|: try calling documentation before loading help.lisp 2015-07-21T13:32:09Z |3b|: from that error i'd guess it loads the code fro DOCUMENTATION on demand, but gets confused because the function is already traced 2015-07-21T13:32:13Z |3b|: *for 2015-07-21T13:32:38Z |3b|: (which i think is conformant, since you aren't allowed to trace symbols in CL package) 2015-07-21T13:32:42Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:34:06Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-21T13:36:03Z pjb: rritoch: You have been LIED to! Packages are named by STRINGs not by symbols!!! 2015-07-21T13:37:02Z pjb: rritoch: Also, symbol names are strings, and can contain any character, in any number (including 0). 2015-07-21T13:37:21Z pjb: rritoch: It is possible to name a package or a symbol with the empty string! 2015-07-21T13:38:41Z remi`bd: pjb: LIED is maybe a little strong; misled might be more convenient. 2015-07-21T13:38:43Z pjb: rritoch: Notice that we can write symbols from KEYWORD package with a prefix colon, but this doesn't mean that the KEYWORD package has a name (or a nickname) that is the empty string. (I mention this, because for a time, one implementation used that trick, but the empty string as package name is not reserved by the standard, and therefore can be used by the user). 2015-07-21T13:38:56Z pjb: remi`bd: when somebody says something false, it's a lie. 2015-07-21T13:39:25Z williamyao joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:39:37Z dlowe: A lie is an intentionally false statement 2015-07-21T13:39:41Z remi`bd: okay, sorry about that 2015-07-21T13:39:46Z pjb: rritoch: || denotes a symbol named "", and a package named "". so ||:|| is a symbol named "" in a package named "". 2015-07-21T13:40:20Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:40:21Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:40:27Z rritoch: pjb: Thanks. I mostly realized from the conversation that any charcter can be used, which answered my question, though I suspect using ' 2015-07-21T13:41:04Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:41:05Z pjb: to lie: tell a lie or lies. synonyms: say something untrue, tell an untruth, tell a lie, tell a falsehood, 2015-07-21T13:41:24Z pjb: says google. 2015-07-21T13:41:40Z pjb: rritoch: package-name returns a string!!! not a symbol. 2015-07-21T13:41:54Z pjb: You can use "'" as a package or symbol name. 2015-07-21T13:42:10Z pjb: \':\' is a symbol named "'" exported from a package named "'". 2015-07-21T13:42:18Z dlowe: "define lie" returns: lie2 : lie; plural noun: lies 1. an intentionally false statement. 2015-07-21T13:43:04Z dlowe: and I'm a native English speaker :p 2015-07-21T13:43:13Z pjb: dlowe: I didn't say: a lie, I said "lied to" which is a verbal form, and the verb is synonym of saying something untrue, without implication of intentionality. 2015-07-21T13:43:22Z pjb: dlowe: and I can read a dictionary. 2015-07-21T13:43:32Z pjb: dlowe: I probably speak English for longer than you. How old are yoU/ 2015-07-21T13:43:47Z rritoch: Well, the truth is, the code still doesn't work, and disinformation isn't a key player 2015-07-21T13:43:51Z pjb: dlowe: Not my fault if you got me as a speaker. I'd rather have you speak French. 2015-07-21T13:44:11Z dlowe: I speak French, but much much worse than your English 2015-07-21T13:44:28Z rritoch: pjb: Is there any "best" practice for retrieving the documentation from a foreign package? 2015-07-21T13:44:32Z dlowe: I speak Lojban, though :D 2015-07-21T13:44:48Z pjb: I learned Esperanto once. 2015-07-21T13:45:03Z rritoch: pjb: My broken code is @ https://github.com/rritoch/abclp/blob/master/src/main/abclp/META-INF/abcl/abclp/help/help.lisp#L14-L19 2015-07-21T13:45:11Z pjb: rritoch: you can use (com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:lspack) 2015-07-21T13:45:38Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-21T13:45:55Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:46:03Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2015-07-21T13:46:31Z pjb: rritoch: (documentation (find-package "ABCLP/HELP") 'package) would retrive the documentatin of that package, if it had one. 2015-07-21T13:47:38Z pjb: rritoch: or actually, (documentation (find-package "ABCLP/HELP") t) should. 2015-07-21T13:47:58Z splittist: Interesting that DOCUMENTATION specialises on method-combinations given discussion elsewhere. 2015-07-21T13:47:59Z beach: pjb: From reading the logs, I am guessing that people are being intentionally unhelpful to rritoch, and I am guessing the reason for that is his unique combination of ignorance and total lack of humility. 2015-07-21T13:48:25Z pjb: beach: no, just somebody said that packages were named by symbols. 2015-07-21T13:49:52Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:52:21Z pjb: splittist: notice that 1.1.2.1.2/19 applies to documentation, but otherwise the user may add methods to it (and notably since the second argument is generally an EQL specializer). 2015-07-21T13:52:52Z pjb: rritoch: the paste is incomplete, so not much can be said of it. 2015-07-21T13:53:13Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:54:15Z pjb: rritoch: perhaps you'd want to have a look at com.informatimago.lispdoc:lispdoc ? 2015-07-21T13:54:17Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:55:48Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T13:58:24Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-21T13:59:33Z rritoch: pjb: Sorry, something came up. I'll bbl, but thank you for the assistance. There are a few more things for me to try before I just give up on the documentation function. 2015-07-21T14:00:38Z pjb: rritoch: just check lispdoc. 2015-07-21T14:01:16Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T14:01:23Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:01:28Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T14:02:02Z pjb: remi`bd: Some editor (ie. emacs) may indeed insert a "new page" even on the screen on , at least in certain modes. For example, GNUS does that on emails and usenet messages. So you can post message with a problem, type C-q C-l and give the solution, and people may see it only when type type PgDn. 2015-07-21T14:05:35Z pjb: rritoch: you may post a question with your code on new:comp.lang.lisp if you want a longer answer. 2015-07-21T14:05:45Z pjb: longer and asynchronous. 2015-07-21T14:06:05Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:06:26Z schjetne: I think there was a discussion a while back on displaying images in the SLIME REPL, does anyone know anything about that? 2015-07-21T14:06:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-21T14:08:21Z splittist: schjetne: the slime-media contrib by Xof? 2015-07-21T14:09:06Z Guthur` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T14:09:26Z Guthur` joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:10:08Z gendl__ quit (Quit: gendl__) 2015-07-21T14:12:32Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-21T14:12:46Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T14:17:52Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-21T14:20:39Z akersof quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-21T14:20:45Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T14:20:52Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:21:32Z madnificent joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:21:40Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:25:27Z p1639 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:26:32Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-21T14:28:43Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:32:48Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-21T14:32:54Z Akshay_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T14:33:40Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T14:36:23Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:36:45Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-21T14:37:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:41:41Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:41:42Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-21T14:41:42Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:42:17Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T14:43:00Z p1639 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T14:45:55Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T14:47:00Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:48:37Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:49:09Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:51:46Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:55:28Z Akshay_ joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:55:30Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:56:38Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-21T14:57:38Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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It really was an ABCL bug with version 1.0.1 (the last maven release) when I ran the same code against the trunk it works without a problem. 2015-07-21T15:13:01Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-21T15:16:11Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:16:31Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:16:47Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:17:58Z foom joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:17:59Z TeMPOraL joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:18:05Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:18:27Z stevegt__ joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:18:35Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:18:48Z larme joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:18:51Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:18:53Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T15:19:11Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-21T15:19:23Z oleo: hello :) 2015-07-21T15:19:49Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:21:43Z beach: Hello oleo. 2015-07-21T15:22:13Z cadadar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T15:22:28Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:22:36Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-21T15:24:03Z oleo: hello beach 2015-07-21T15:24:42Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:26:52Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:28:09Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-21T15:29:13Z Guthur` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T15:33:59Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:34:36Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:36:30Z jolamb joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:36:38Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T15:36:47Z jolamb left #lisp 2015-07-21T15:41:49Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:42:11Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-21T15:46:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-21T15:46:11Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-21T15:46:13Z eMBee quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-21T15:46:23Z eMBee joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:48:47Z mea-culp` joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:50:18Z mea-culp` is now known as mea-culpa` 2015-07-21T15:50:19Z mea-culpa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T15:50:41Z something joined #lisp 2015-07-21T15:51:47Z something quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-21T15:53:50Z |3b|` is now known as |3b| 2015-07-21T15:58:21Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-21T16:00:16Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:03:19Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:04:07Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:06:31Z shlomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-21T16:08:54Z williamyao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T16:11:05Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:13:36Z izabera_ joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:14:00Z izabera_ is now known as izabera 2015-07-21T16:14:15Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-21T16:15:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-21T16:17:02Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-21T16:19:26Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T16:19:45Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T16:20:40Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-21T16:21:11Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T16:21:26Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:21:54Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T16:22:05Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:30:39Z ggole quit 2015-07-21T16:32:13Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T16:34:38Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:36:25Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:39:23Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:44:30Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T16:45:45Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-21T16:48:24Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:49:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T16:51:53Z rritoch: I'll just cancel and put them in a gist 2015-07-21T16:51:59Z rritoch: w/l 2015-07-21T16:52:46Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:53:32Z rpg: Would someone put in the topic that ASDF 3.1.5 was released today? 2015-07-21T16:55:03Z fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| ASDF 3.15, SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1 2015-07-21T16:55:15Z fe[nl]ix: at your service 2015-07-21T16:55:42Z stevegt__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T16:56:08Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:57:08Z jackdaniel: can I have a sandwitch? 2015-07-21T16:57:16Z jackdaniel: ;) 2015-07-21T16:57:29Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:58:21Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-21T16:58:57Z sdothum quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-21T16:59:45Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: thanks! I'm going to have a lunch break to recover.... 2015-07-21T17:00:04Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: from the pains of release ? 2015-07-21T17:00:32Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Really from the pains of the things I was procrastinating about by releasing! 2015-07-21T17:00:35Z Adlai: slime-inspector doesn't respect *print-pretty* >_< 2015-07-21T17:03:29Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-21T17:05:01Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-21T17:05:20Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:07:59Z pjb: Adlai: you should set SWANK::*INSPECTOR-VERBOSE-PRINTER-BINDINGS* and SWANK::*INSPECTOR-PRINTER-BINDINGS* 2015-07-21T17:08:25Z |3b|: you can hit p on things in the inspector to pretty print them if that helps 2015-07-21T17:09:29Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:10:23Z jackdaniel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T17:10:23Z anunnaki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-21T17:11:55Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:15:30Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:16:42Z zbigniew joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:16:50Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T17:18:50Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:19:02Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:19:30Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:20:37Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:20:49Z malbertife quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-21T17:26:06Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:27:34Z emanuelz joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:31:18Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-21T17:56:52Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-21T17:58:30Z jebes: is anyone using hunchentoot in production? 2015-07-21T17:58:38Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-21T17:58:47Z schjetne: yes 2015-07-21T17:58:53Z schjetne: but behind nginx 2015-07-21T17:59:23Z jebes: any specific reason? 2015-07-21T17:59:47Z elucevanlestelle is now known as BWV989 2015-07-21T18:00:00Z schjetne: Security, static content, load balancing 2015-07-21T18:00:06Z jebes: ah. makes sense 2015-07-21T18:01:58Z jebes: i would like the app to just be a lisp image that you dump on one computer, so for now I'm just going to have hunchentoot face it directly... 2015-07-21T18:02:15Z jebes: its for intranet use too, so it doens't have to be locked down or anything crazy. 2015-07-21T18:04:38Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-21T18:05:25Z schjetne: That's a much nicer way of working. Especially when you can have storage in the image too and not have to bother with a database. 2015-07-21T18:05:59Z jebes: No, i will need a database, unfortunately. 2015-07-21T18:06:09Z jebes: and my own DB is super not ready for realese... 2015-07-21T18:06:12Z BWV989 left #lisp 2015-07-21T18:06:53Z schjetne: Yes, unfortunately the only production-ready Lisp object store seems to be AllegroCache, and that's proprietary. 2015-07-21T18:07:20Z schjetne: Though there are other free ones that I haven't tried yet 2015-07-21T18:07:34Z jebes: I've used elephant, but not actually not a fan of OOP systems... 2015-07-21T18:07:47Z schjetne: I thought I'd do something like that for a personal project of mine, right now I'm just dumping a bunch of JSON for prototyping. 2015-07-21T18:09:34Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:12:06Z smithzv joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:12:08Z schjetne: Hmm, I think I'll give Lucerne a spin 2015-07-21T18:12:15Z smithzv is now known as Guest93891 2015-07-21T18:13:14Z jackdaniel: I keep my websites on top of hunchentoot 2015-07-21T18:13:36Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-21T18:13:44Z jebes: oh wow, someone in an irc channel i'm in just bought a lisp machine 2015-07-21T18:14:03Z wat quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-21T18:14:06Z schjetne: jebes: cool, which one? 2015-07-21T18:14:30Z jebes: i don't know, I just asked 2015-07-21T18:14:43Z jebes: 3640 2015-07-21T18:14:51Z BWV989 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:14:59Z ktx joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:14:59Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:15:16Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:15:32Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2015-07-21T18:15:54Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:16:15Z gko joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:16:24Z arrsim joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:16:25Z dlowe: it'll make a nice combination coffee table and space heater 2015-07-21T18:17:07Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:17:25Z dlowe: I hope he makes sure he has power circuitry that can take it. The thing draws 30A 2015-07-21T18:17:59Z jebes: damn 2015-07-21T18:18:58Z jebes: in other news: I can basically commit full time to clisp for the next couple of weeks, oh fun... 2015-07-21T18:19:06Z jackdaniel: computers are like cars, more power/gasoline hungry, more classy it is ;D 2015-07-21T18:19:38Z jackdaniel: jebes: write blogpost/gist or something on it and put on planet.lisp.org, so more people will be ack 2015-07-21T18:20:12Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:20:14Z jebes: I definitely will 2015-07-21T18:22:46Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:23:19Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:25:12Z rpg: what the HECK is up with sourceforge? Today was definitely not the day to announce the ASDF release: half the CL implementation mailing lists seem dead.... 2015-07-21T18:25:28Z jebes: they ran out of storage from what I hear 2015-07-21T18:26:07Z jackdaniel: ecl moves it's ml when archives will be possible do download to cl.net 2015-07-21T18:26:47Z jackdaniel: and that will complete sf switch 2015-07-21T18:27:55Z rpg is so old, he can remember when sourceforge was usable 2015-07-21T18:28:35Z remi`bd: well, that’s not so old 2015-07-21T18:28:57Z akkad: can swank work over tramp? 2015-07-21T18:29:07Z rpg: "Sourceforge: trainwreck or meltdown?" 2015-07-21T18:29:25Z akkad: sourceforget 2015-07-21T18:29:42Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean "over tramp", but slime can work with tramp. 2015-07-21T18:29:53Z jebes: i do it for work on my vps 2015-07-21T18:30:25Z akkad: edit file via /sshx:user@remotehost:foo.lisp will swank commands evaluated in the buffer of that remote file work with remote swank ports. 2015-07-21T18:31:07Z akkad: like if you run tests, or git commands, they are evaluated remotely. 2015-07-21T18:31:30Z brucem quit (Changing host) 2015-07-21T18:31:31Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:32:03Z akkad: guessing an explicit slime-connect is required 2015-07-21T18:33:51Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-21T18:33:51Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-21T18:34:26Z slyrus: rpg: not to mention reading slashdot articles about cool new projects hosted on sourceforge 2015-07-21T18:34:37Z p_l: sshx? 2015-07-21T18:34:50Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T18:35:31Z rpg: SF just got more and more complicated and cumbersome, until it was just unusable. 2015-07-21T18:35:54Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:36:00Z rpg: I have a project on there where we just host tarballs, because I couldn't figure out their last few reorganizations. 2015-07-21T18:36:13Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:36:22Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:36:24Z akkad: p_l emacs/tramp method 2015-07-21T18:37:07Z p_l: that i know, wondered about difference between it and classic ssh method 2015-07-21T18:37:21Z akkad: ahh tail -f in cl, nice 2015-07-21T18:37:44Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T18:39:22Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T18:40:51Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T18:41:05Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:42:11Z p_l: nvm, checked TRAMP manual 2015-07-21T18:42:46Z akkad: mostly, editing remote lisp files, and being able to use slime in the remote context would be idea. 2015-07-21T18:42:47Z akkad: l 2015-07-21T18:42:47Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:44:00Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:44:12Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-21T18:44:54Z p_l: akkad: lots of docs on slime+tramp, iirc 2015-07-21T18:45:07Z akkad: yeah googling now. 2015-07-21T18:45:15Z akkad: SF links galore 2015-07-21T18:45:27Z p_l: required setting a mapping between the view of the filesystem by image and view seen by tramp 2015-07-21T18:46:06Z akkad: then ssh tunnel it is 2015-07-21T18:46:12Z akkad: thanks 2015-07-21T18:46:35Z p_l: I remember using it few times in the past 2015-07-21T18:49:07Z BWV989 left #lisp 2015-07-21T18:56:52Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-21T18:58:18Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:02:14Z yaewa quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-07-21T19:02:32Z moei joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:07:00Z pjb: It works over tramp and over nfs, but you have to ensure the pathnames are the same on both systems. 2015-07-21T19:07:12Z pjb: (add symlinks or mount points). 2015-07-21T19:08:49Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T19:09:15Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:12:31Z pjb: This article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp is nice and good. But clearly insufficient as a lisp introduction. Presenting a sufficient subset of Common Lisp to be able to write interesting student programs requires at least one big chapter (plus the reference annex) in a book (eg. in PAIP). 2015-07-21T19:14:49Z nml quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T19:15:21Z downloadico joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:15:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:15:35Z jackdaniel: pjb: wikibooks has something alike 2015-07-21T19:15:58Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:16:16Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T19:16:36Z monod quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-21T19:16:43Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:18:48Z zmikund joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:19:06Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-21T19:19:08Z yenda- joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:19:21Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:20:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T19:21:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-21T19:24:08Z schjetne: Hmm, it doesn't seem like I can specialize methods on keyword on SBCL 2015-07-21T19:24:44Z jackdaniel: eql specializer doesn't work? 2015-07-21T19:24:48Z jebes: you could write a macro 2015-07-21T19:25:01Z schjetne: No, for any keyword. Keyword is a class in CCL 2015-07-21T19:25:07Z schjetne: But not in SBCL 2015-07-21T19:25:43Z jebes: what are you trying to do? 2015-07-21T19:25:43Z Bike: ccl doing that is an extension, like sbcl's making fixnum a class. 2015-07-21T19:27:39Z jebes: something about doing that just makes me uncomfortable 2015-07-21T19:27:54Z schjetne: https://github.com/gschjetne/json-mop/blob/master/to-json.lisp#L31 2015-07-21T19:28:06Z schjetne: But no worries, I will probably get rid of that method altogether 2015-07-21T19:28:21Z schjetne: Just haven't decided how to deal with nil just yet 2015-07-21T19:28:43Z jebes: ah, type checking 2015-07-21T19:29:04Z Bike: iirc you don't need to declare ignore variables that you specialize on 2015-07-21T19:29:33Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-21T19:29:52Z Shinmera: You do in CCL 2015-07-21T19:29:59Z Bike: hm 2015-07-21T19:30:04Z Bike: is the idea that all of your json types will be keywords, and user defined ones would be in other packages 2015-07-21T19:30:06Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-21T19:30:27Z akkad: ccl seems popular at the local bay area lispers meetup. is it like bsd to linux(sbcl)? 2015-07-21T19:30:39Z Bike: "The expansion of the defmethod macro ``refers to'' each specialized parameter (see the description of ignore within the description of declare). This includes parameters that have an explicit parameter specializer name of t. This means that a compiler warning does not occur if the body of the method does not refer to a specialized parameter, while a warning might occur if the body of the method does not refer 2015-07-21T19:30:45Z Bike: to an unspecialized parameter. " 2015-07-21T19:31:14Z Bike: so i guess that's a(n obviously minor) ccl bug, which i vaguely remember reporting before, but maybe not 2015-07-21T19:31:19Z schjetne: Bike: the ones built into the library are keywords, the ones that are user-defined are classes. But the user can define other types by just eql specializing on different keywords. 2015-07-21T19:31:59Z Bike: schjetne: well what i'm getting at is why do you specialize on json type as a keyword there, versus as a symbol, or not at all 2015-07-21T19:33:26Z schjetne: I have considered re-using CL type specifiers 2015-07-21T19:33:57Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:36:29Z schjetne: But I like to keep the two separate 2015-07-21T19:38:55Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-21T19:43:06Z schjetne: Bike: also, thanks for the tip about (declare (ignore)) 2015-07-21T19:43:31Z Bike: well, like shinmera said you might get warnings from ccl 2015-07-21T19:43:51Z Shinmera: It's only style warnings, iirc. 2015-07-21T19:44:10Z Bike: actually, i'm not getting any, hm 2015-07-21T19:44:30Z Shinmera: I distinctly remember getting annoyed at CCL for style-warning me for that. 2015-07-21T19:44:55Z Bike: i do too, maybe it was fixed 2015-07-21T19:46:06Z Shinmera: I still get one when compile-file-ing (this is on 1.10-r16196) 2015-07-21T19:46:24Z Shinmera: And general compiling. 2015-07-21T19:46:58Z Shinmera: 1.10 is still the most recent stable I think. 2015-07-21T19:47:44Z Bike: yeah, i see it too now. bummer. 2015-07-21T19:48:15Z Bike: no, i take it back, i don't. 2015-07-21T19:48:55Z Bike: macroexpansion of the defmethod has a declare ignorable 'n' everything 2015-07-21T19:49:00Z Shinmera: Hmm. 2015-07-21T19:49:20Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:49:20Z Bike: with file containing (defgeneric foo (bar)) (defgeneric foo ((bar t)) 4) 2015-07-21T19:49:26Z Bike: er, defmethod for the second one. 2015-07-21T19:50:09Z Shinmera: Ah-- yes. I was too quick to judge. 2015-07-21T19:50:31Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T19:50:39Z Shinmera: It signals a warning for (defmethod foo (a) 0) 2015-07-21T19:50:46Z Bike: yeah, i made the same mistake. 2015-07-21T19:50:56Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-21T19:52:09Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-21T19:54:31Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T19:58:13Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-21T20:00:30Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T20:00:39Z yorick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-21T20:00:49Z ceryo_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I can obviously make the library use the main thread in the correct places but often you want to just place with something in the repl. Are you having to wrap each repl call in a with-body-in-main-thread? 2015-07-21T21:31:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-21T21:33:12Z Shinmera: Baggers: yes 2015-07-21T21:33:49Z Baggers: Shinmera: bummer. Makes sense though 2015-07-21T21:33:59Z Shinmera: Not much I can do to help there. 2015-07-21T21:34:10Z Shinmera: I already did most I can by implementing a simple command queue thing. 2015-07-21T21:34:33Z loz1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-21T21:34:35Z Shinmera: What you can do is implement your own repl 2015-07-21T21:34:40Z Shinmera: that does this automagically 2015-07-21T21:34:44Z DrWatto joined #lisp 2015-07-21T21:34:55Z fe[nl]ix: please, please can we stop naming projects trivial-foo ? 2015-07-21T21:35:08Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: What else should I have called it? 2015-07-21T21:35:15Z Baggers: Shinmera: yeah, I do appreciate it, just wish these operating system did force this kind of thing 2015-07-21T21:35:25Z Shinmera: Baggers: Blame Apple :) 2015-07-21T21:35:42Z Bike: contains-basically-one-macro-for-running-things-in-the-primary-OS-thread 2015-07-21T21:35:51Z Shinmera: Bike: sounds great 2015-07-21T21:36:12Z Baggers: Shinmera: win 8 does this too apparently..or at least people are reporting very similar issues 2015-07-21T21:36:20Z Shinmera: Baggers: oh. Grand. 2015-07-21T21:36:21Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: e.g. zwirnli 2015-07-21T21:36:41Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: A very informative name. A++ 2015-07-21T21:36:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T21:36:49Z Bike: Huldrych Zwingli, a leader of the reformation in Switzerland? 2015-07-21T21:36:56Z Bike: Reformation capitalized, i should say 2015-07-21T21:36:58Z DrWat quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T21:37:11Z Baggers: I think its the soudn you make when you pull something out your arse 2015-07-21T21:37:33Z Baggers: a sort of wincing cry :D 2015-07-21T21:38:07Z Bike: i mean, you could just call it in-main-thread or something, i guess, but there's no reason to other than nonconformance with trivial-whatever 2015-07-21T21:38:29Z Baggers: especially as, in this case, it is actually trivial to use 2015-07-21T21:38:49Z Shinmera: I already have enough trouble picking stupid names for all my other dumb projects. I don't want to spend half an hour pondering what to name something that I wrote in less time than that. 2015-07-21T21:39:13Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-07-21T21:39:36Z vossi quit (Quit: vossi) 2015-07-21T21:40:10Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-07-21T21:40:14Z Shinmera: Anyway, it's late over here and I'm tired. Good night, #lisp 2015-07-21T21:40:17Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-21T21:40:20Z pyon is now known as kawaii-imouto 2015-07-21T21:41:43Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T21:41:53Z DrWatto quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-21T21:42:21Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-21T21:45:13Z tokenrove: Baggers: i think you could use the same interfaces that linedit uses for wrapping the repl in sbcl and ccl. 2015-07-21T21:50:10Z slyrus: the clojure dudes seem to be big fans of grand-sounding but completely non-descriptive names for their libraries. I prefer trivial-foo to antidisestablishmentarianism. 2015-07-21T21:50:44Z slyrus: (which does nothing but call some hoopty java library somebody found on maven) 2015-07-21T21:50:46Z slyrus: e..g 2015-07-21T21:51:33Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-21T21:52:25Z Shinmera: Baggers: before I go to sleep and inevitably forget it, you can alleviate the problem by hooking into slime. See https://github.com/commonqt/commonqt/blob/master/repl-integration.lisp for some inspiration. 2015-07-21T21:52:36Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-21T21:52:42Z Shinmera: Now good night for real this time. 2015-07-21T21:52:43Z Shinmera quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-21T21:52:46Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-07-21T21:58:33Z Baggers: tokenrove: Shinmera:thanks, definitely to check these out 2015-07-21T22:00:17Z Petit_Dejeuenr joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:01:47Z j0ni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:02:53Z j0ni joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:05:38Z Baggers: *slime-repl-eval-hooks* looks perfect! 2015-07-21T22:06:00Z Baggers: damn these people think of everything...or have bitten by every problem before :) 2015-07-21T22:06:05Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:06:17Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:07:14Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:07:17Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:08:17Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:08:18Z gendl_ is now known as gendl 2015-07-21T22:09:11Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:09:24Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:12:00Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:12:28Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:12:33Z nopf quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:13:00Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:13:58Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:13:58Z zacts quit (Changing host) 2015-07-21T22:13:58Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:14:16Z nopf joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:16:19Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:18:27Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:18:54Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-21T22:19:33Z mc40 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T22:20:06Z zmikund quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:20:12Z H4ns quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:21:18Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:21:43Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T22:21:58Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:22:10Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:23:17Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:23:45Z lisper29 left #lisp 2015-07-21T22:24:36Z jebes: what db do you guys reccomend? 2015-07-21T22:24:51Z jebes: i was thinking of just going with sqlite or mysql, but I'm not too big of a fan of sql... 2015-07-21T22:25:19Z monod quit (Quit: bye) 2015-07-21T22:26:08Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:26:23Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:28:08Z Baggers: jebes: one answer could be 'sqlite if its only local and postgress otherwise' but its a pretty broad question so i'll leave it to the pros 2015-07-21T22:28:17Z squiddo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:28:45Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:28:51Z OrangeShark_ joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:28:54Z jebes: i'm leaning towards sqllite, since it will be local. 2015-07-21T22:29:12Z squiddo joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:29:21Z OrangeShark_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-21T22:29:24Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:30:14Z mlrutherford quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T22:30:46Z yenda- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:30:47Z downloadico quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-21T22:31:03Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:32:02Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:32:59Z coc886 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:33:11Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-07-21T22:34:02Z squiddo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:34:28Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:36:13Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:36:53Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T22:39:01Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-21T22:41:10Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-21T22:47:27Z coc886 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T22:47:52Z madnificent quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:51:04Z oconnore: jebes: more than local vs. remote, it's one writer vs. more than one writer 2015-07-21T22:51:43Z oconnore: remote tends to accept more than one writer, unless it's a very small service, so Baggers' advice is pretty spot on in practice 2015-07-21T22:54:13Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:54:54Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-21T22:56:27Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-21T22:56:34Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T22:58:39Z reb``: jebes: I recommend not using a database. 2015-07-21T22:59:18Z emanuelz left #lisp 2015-07-21T23:01:12Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-21T23:02:57Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-21T23:03:11Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-21T23:03:15Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-21T23:03:18Z gensym quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-21T23:03:33Z ziocroc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T23:05:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-21T23:09:22Z jebes: reb`` probably what will happen. Its mostly static data that I can stuff into sexp's 2015-07-21T23:10:05Z reb``: jebes: Load it all into a running Lisp, then dump a new image. 2015-07-21T23:10:19Z jebes: mostly static doesn't mean it won't change. 2015-07-21T23:10:32Z jebes: and i don't want to dump an image every time it changes 2015-07-21T23:10:46Z reb``: Store the data in protocol buffer form? 2015-07-21T23:11:10Z reb``: ... use a simple key / value store ? 2015-07-21T23:11:48Z jebes: i was just going to use sexp's and the data will not change fast enough to actually be a bottleneck anywhere 2015-07-21T23:12:00Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-21T23:12:32Z jebes: if simple file formats don't scale, then I'll think of something else, but for now, that's what'll happen :) 2015-07-21T23:13:14Z jebes: thanks :) 2015-07-21T23:14:47Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T23:15:08Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-21T23:16:58Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-21T23:17:00Z yenda- joined #lisp 2015-07-21T23:17:13Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-21T23:19:39Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T23:20:26Z badkins quit 2015-07-21T23:20:58Z Petit_Dejeuenr: Do class definitions need to come before method definitions for that class? When I try to compile my file, I get a "no class ~a" exception. 2015-07-21T23:21:10Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-21T23:23:43Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-21T23:30:31Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-21T23:31:00Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-21T23:31:17Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-21T23:35:48Z nyef: Petit_Dejeuenr: I believe that they might, yes. 2015-07-21T23:37:09Z p_l joined #lisp 2015-07-21T23:39:25Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-07-21T23:43:20Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-21T23:45:52Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-21T23:47:42Z PuercoPop: Petit_Dejeuenr: I think the answer is not always, as I know forward-referenced-class exists in closer-mop. 2015-07-21T23:47:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-21T23:48:15Z PuercoPop: can't find the pertinent section in the clhs though 2015-07-21T23:49:19Z nyef: PuercoPop: I think that's for defining subclasses or something like that. 2015-07-21T23:49:31Z nyef: Not sure, though. CLOS and MOP isn't exactly my strong suit. 2015-07-21T23:51:48Z PuercoPop: nyef: makes sense. I speculate it methods can come first if the class is part of the same of the same 'compilation unit' (for example compiling the whole buffer instead of just the expression at point) 2015-07-21T23:53:41Z nyef: clhs defclass 2015-07-21T23:53:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm 2015-07-21T23:54:18Z nyef: The last paragraph of the description strongly suggests that classes must be defined before methods can specialize on them. 2015-07-21T23:54:37Z nyef: And earlier there's a more explicit requirement. 2015-07-21T23:54:58Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:02:19Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T00:05:03Z Clarice joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:06:12Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:06:15Z yrdz` joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:08:29Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:09:09Z p_l_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:09:20Z j0ni_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:09:40Z jtza8_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:13:05Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:13:07Z PuercoPop nods 2015-07-22T00:13:17Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T00:13:22Z Petit_Dejeuenr: PuercoPop: The problem occurred while trying to compile an entire buffer. 2015-07-22T00:13:39Z Petit_Dejeuenr: Well, I guess I know what to do now. Thanks. 2015-07-22T00:14:44Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:15:08Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:17:40Z kristof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T00:17:40Z p_l quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-22T00:17:40Z jtza8 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-22T00:17:41Z scymtym_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-22T00:17:41Z j0ni quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-22T00:17:41Z yrdz quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-22T00:17:41Z cpt_nemo quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-22T00:17:41Z eMBee quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-22T00:17:41Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-22T00:18:48Z eMBee joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:19:30Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:19:43Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T00:21:30Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-22T00:22:06Z aretecode quit (Quit: Toodaloo) 2015-07-22T00:22:09Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:28:51Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T00:30:43Z therik quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T00:34:17Z harish quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T00:38:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:40:07Z jtza8_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T00:42:31Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:44:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T00:45:19Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-22T00:45:40Z CodyReichert joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:45:46Z digiorgi: is there an idiomatic way to get the canonical boolean value: (defun boolean (x) (if x t nil))? 2015-07-22T00:47:50Z nyef: (and x t) ? 2015-07-22T00:49:08Z Zhivago: I'd probably go with (if x t nil) myself. :) 2015-07-22T00:49:45Z nyef: I think which I choose might depend on what I'm doing. 2015-07-22T00:50:00Z nyef: And, at the same time, I rarely need to canonicalize a boolean. 2015-07-22T00:50:30Z spew joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:51:39Z kawaii-imouto quit (Quit: brb fix config) 2015-07-22T00:52:08Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:53:00Z phf: does anybody have a copy of sbcl.pdf handy linkable? (that's not on sourceforge) 2015-07-22T00:53:50Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-07-22T00:54:00Z pyon is now known as kawaii-imouto 2015-07-22T00:58:22Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T01:01:24Z yenda- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T01:03:36Z ssake_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-22T01:03:36Z ssake__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T01:03:37Z sjl: phf: someone linked me to this yesterday https://antoszka.pl/sbcl/ 2015-07-22T01:03:44Z sjl: phf: there's an html version there 2015-07-22T01:03:58Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:04:03Z phf: sjl: that works, thanks! 2015-07-22T01:09:33Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:14:01Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:21:20Z Petit_Dejeuenr is now known as Petit_Dejeuner 2015-07-22T01:22:20Z renopt quit (Quit: eaten by utf8) 2015-07-22T01:23:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: oh right, sourceforge is still dead 2015-07-22T01:24:55Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:25:03Z cojy: sourceforge is dead forever 2015-07-22T01:25:04Z renopt joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:27:58Z Clarice is now known as kristof 2015-07-22T01:29:48Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:33:15Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T01:34:06Z ovidnis` joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:35:16Z PuercoPop: digiorgi: you could do (not (null x)), but it if you have something that is not nil it could be more idiomatic to return that instead 2015-07-22T01:36:51Z ovidnis` is now known as ovidnis 2015-07-22T01:37:00Z phf: is there any way to use named char as a padchar in a formative directive, like #\foobar 2015-07-22T01:37:04Z phf: ? 2015-07-22T01:37:17Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-22T01:37:26Z phf: *format 2015-07-22T01:43:07Z PuercoPop: btw digiorgi you could simplify if-not by using (condition if-true &optional if-false) as a lambda list intead 2015-07-22T01:47:17Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T01:47:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:49:09Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:50:29Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T01:50:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:53:12Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:53:57Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-22T01:54:38Z digiorgi: PuercoPop: thanks for looking my repo, (: 2015-07-22T01:57:41Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:02:52Z ovidnis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T02:03:15Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:04:36Z nyef: ... Wha? With two threads in CLX, if one hogs the input lock, and the other tries to get input with a timeout, the timeout won't trigger until the input lock is release? 2015-07-22T02:04:44Z nyef: Err... released? 2015-07-22T02:05:15Z SpikeMaster joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:06:15Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T02:06:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T02:06:52Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:06:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:07:15Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:09:37Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:10:39Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:12:17Z j0ni_ is now known as j0ni 2015-07-22T02:12:36Z SpikeMaster left #lisp 2015-07-22T02:18:11Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T02:19:15Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-22T02:22:05Z tellmemore joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:23:42Z tellmemore quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-22T02:23:59Z loke: nyef: Is CLS thread-safe? 2015-07-22T02:24:02Z loke: CLX 2015-07-22T02:25:22Z nyef: Supposedly. It would not surprise me in the least if it's broken WRT memory ordering semantics. 2015-07-22T02:26:23Z govt joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:28:37Z nyef: On the other hand, SBCL itself is probably broken WRT memory ordering semantics in some cases. 2015-07-22T02:28:52Z nyef: Not cases you're likely to stumble upon, but cases that I'm likely to trip over. 2015-07-22T02:31:24Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:32:25Z spew quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-22T02:34:29Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T02:38:08Z nml joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:41:20Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T02:43:33Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:45:21Z govt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T02:46:41Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T02:54:29Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-22T02:58:03Z PuercoPop: afaiu xlib was not thread safe, so they came with xcb that was. But because clx isn't a binding of xlib idk were it leaves it. 2015-07-22T03:00:27Z nyef: There's a goodly pile of thread-related stuff in CLX, I'm just not sure how well it works in the context of a modern multiprocessor system. 2015-07-22T03:03:53Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:03:58Z cosmicexplorer joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:07:40Z streptotrichosis joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:15:12Z zematis joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:16:35Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-22T03:16:51Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T03:17:35Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-22T03:18:49Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:18:53Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-07-22T03:18:57Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-22T03:19:21Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-22T03:20:08Z danielglh joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:20:22Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T03:26:07Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T03:40:02Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T03:40:32Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:42:36Z beach: nyef: From reading the logs, I see that CLX + SBCL don't behave as would be desired with respect to threads. Right? 2015-07-22T03:44:00Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:45:48Z nyef: CLX has precisely the abstraction that I want to be able to use, but doesn't export it. 2015-07-22T03:46:12Z nyef: The core input mechanism looks like it will deadlock a timeout. 2015-07-22T03:46:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T03:46:29Z beach: I see. 2015-07-22T03:46:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:47:07Z nyef: And because of all that mess, I'm suddenly having some sympathy for the idea of having a per-port message handling thread. 2015-07-22T03:47:58Z nyef: And I didn't have time to come up with enough of a plan to be able to implement any event stuff tonight, so I went and implemented the LINE-STYLE protocol class, and started laying out the follow-on steps from that. 2015-07-22T03:48:18Z beach: Sounds like a good plan. 2015-07-22T03:48:33Z nyef: Though I'm not really sure how the drawing-option and drawing-sub-option stuff is going to end up once it's sorted out. 2015-07-22T03:49:55Z beach: What could go wrong? 2015-07-22T03:50:43Z myztic joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:51:08Z nyef: I could wind up with a largeish, indigestible, fragile blob of code. 2015-07-22T03:51:30Z beach: Heh. OK. 2015-07-22T03:51:54Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:52:09Z nyef: I could end up with something like that one macro from McCLIM that generates the layout pane stuff. 2015-07-22T03:53:54Z kristof: nyef: You've been working on CLIM stuff a lot lately, it seems. Have you taken up the project lately or have I just not noticed how invested you are in it before? 2015-07-22T03:55:03Z nyef: kristof: About a month and a half ago now, I decided to make a point of making at least one commit a day to NQ-CLIM. 2015-07-22T03:55:10Z kristof: Gotcha 2015-07-22T03:55:23Z nyef: Current streak on github: 43 days. 2015-07-22T03:55:24Z kristof: Well good luck and all :) 2015-07-22T03:55:27Z nyef: Thanks. 2015-07-22T03:56:26Z nyef: (Exactly a month and a half, if one of the months is a leap-year February, and the other is a non-leap-year February.) 2015-07-22T03:57:14Z nyef: Basically, I want it to the point of being complete enough for me to use. 2015-07-22T03:58:55Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-22T03:59:09Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-22T03:59:15Z kristof: Yeah, that's a good goal to have. 2015-07-22T03:59:23Z kristof: Also make QA easy. "Do I like this?" 2015-07-22T03:59:48Z beach: kristof: I think we REALLY need a native Common Lisp toolkit for GUIs. The best basis for that is definitely CLIM, even though the specification is not as good as the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2015-07-22T04:00:01Z Zhivago: This is why months are not units of time. 2015-07-22T04:00:34Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-22T04:00:45Z kristof: beach: GUI toolkits are gross. 2015-07-22T04:01:05Z nyef: Zhivago: Unfortunately, an awful lot of people think that they are. 2015-07-22T04:01:13Z kristof: beach: This is not lisp related, but I've always wanted to see what a highly, trivially concurrent GUI toolkit would look like if it were built on actors or CSP 2015-07-22T04:01:18Z beach: kristof: So we should tell all the people who want one that they are wrong to want one? 2015-07-22T04:01:29Z kristof: beach: No, I meant existing ones :) 2015-07-22T04:01:35Z beach: Ah, OK. 2015-07-22T04:01:38Z kristof: You have used GTK before, I think. 2015-07-22T04:02:22Z beach: I don't think I have. But I must have used some. 2015-07-22T04:03:19Z beach: Part of the problem of existing toolkits is that they are written in a language that doesn't allow closures, so everything that has to do with callbacks is horrible. 2015-07-22T04:04:41Z kristof: Closures are great. I also think sufficiently complicated domains that don't map so easily to any language in general like GUI creation are simply a pain without metaprogramming facilities. 2015-07-22T04:05:27Z beach: So, in essence, you think it is the right thing to do to have a native Common Lisp GUI toolkit? 2015-07-22T04:06:17Z loke: I have a design question for you guys 2015-07-22T04:07:45Z kristof: I am speaking from experience programming Java applications for Android. You spend so much of your time coercing the problem into your language, setting up objects correctly to use them in the frameworks, clumsily handling asynchronous computation... 2015-07-22T04:08:26Z loke: I need to provide a way for users of my application to send control commands (for example: "create new user", "reset database" or "show current activity"). The application itself runs without a REPL (and actualyl consists of more than one process). 2015-07-22T04:08:30Z nyef: kristof: Have you also tried programming in ObjC for iOS? 2015-07-22T04:08:44Z loke: How would you implement such thing? 2015-07-22T04:09:01Z loke: nyef: I tried ObjC on OSX. That was a horrible experience. 2015-07-22T04:09:36Z kristof: beach: Of course. :) In fact, out of all the types of applications I have ever written, the type of application that would have benefited the most from being written in Common Lisp is a GUI. 2015-07-22T04:09:53Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-22T04:09:55Z kristof: Or, I suppose I mean "the GUI part". 2015-07-22T04:10:02Z theos: good morning 2015-07-22T04:10:07Z beach: kristof: Yes, I see. 2015-07-22T04:10:12Z beach: Hello theos. 2015-07-22T04:10:48Z nyef: loke: Far too unconstrained a problem. Have you considered an HTTP-based API served via Hunchentoot? Or some sort of binary protocol around a file socket? Or a CLX GUI? Or... I did mention that this was a bit of an unconstrained problem space, right? 2015-07-22T04:10:56Z loke: nyef: I have 2015-07-22T04:11:06Z loke: OK, I'll constrain it a bit more 2015-07-22T04:11:20Z loke: the interface should be command based (so users can run it from a shellscript) 2015-07-22T04:11:33Z loke: The commandline should be able to communicate with the running servcies 2015-07-22T04:11:42Z nyef: Okay, that rules out the CLX GUI, I guess... 2015-07-22T04:11:44Z loke: And it needs to be very simply to implement 2015-07-22T04:11:56Z nyef: And that rules out the filesystem socket thing. 2015-07-22T04:12:01Z loke: Yep 2015-07-22T04:12:09Z nyef: So, hunchentoot? 2015-07-22T04:12:09Z loke: Is there perhaps some simple RPC mechanism? 2015-07-22T04:12:18Z kristof: loke: The CL standard has prompt functions. You can read string inputs, parse them, and dispatch however you like. 2015-07-22T04:12:27Z nyef: You could probably put together a simple RPC system if necessary. 2015-07-22T04:12:36Z loke: Actually, forget about the rpc part. I just figured out a good solution for that 2015-07-22T04:12:42Z loke: The main question is: 2015-07-22T04:12:58Z loke: How to most easily provide the commandline parsing and stuff 2015-07-22T04:14:38Z nyef: Tie into the bash-completion mechanism or whatever it's called? 2015-07-22T04:14:39Z kristof: If I were you, I'd a) trim the whitespace, b) split by spaces, and c) dispatch on the first token. If the token is not recognizable, send an error message. 2015-07-22T04:14:53Z nyef: Oh, on the parsing side? 2015-07-22T04:15:06Z loke: nyef: 2015-07-22T04:15:07Z loke: Yes 2015-07-22T04:15:11Z nyef: Probably a small pile of options out there, including one of the CLONs. 2015-07-22T04:15:21Z loke: Is there some ready-made library that provides simple command parsing? 2015-07-22T04:16:06Z cluck quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T04:19:01Z kawaii-imouto quit (Quit: fix config) 2015-07-22T04:19:35Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-07-22T04:19:46Z pyon is now known as kawaii-imouto 2015-07-22T04:20:46Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-22T04:21:13Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-22T04:22:52Z pjb: phf: you can use V to report the parameter to an argument: (format nil "~10,VD" #\$ 42) --> "$$$$$$$$42" 2015-07-22T04:23:07Z myztic quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T04:23:17Z pjb: phf: (format nil "~V,VD" 5 #\$ 42) --> "$$$42" 2015-07-22T04:23:35Z myztic joined #lisp 2015-07-22T04:26:49Z huserl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T04:30:52Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T04:31:26Z zematis quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-22T04:35:02Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-22T04:38:40Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T04:40:48Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-22T04:44:58Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-22T04:47:22Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T04:50:24Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-22T04:57:34Z beach: drmeister: Around? 2015-07-22T04:57:45Z drmeister: beach: Hello 2015-07-22T04:58:00Z beach: drmeister: It turns out, you have several other functions that look similar to the one I suggested you modify. 2015-07-22T04:58:32Z beach: In addition to lookupValueReference, there is also lookupValue, updateValue, and perhaps more. 2015-07-22T04:58:54Z gunnin_gummy joined #lisp 2015-07-22T04:59:32Z goglosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T04:59:32Z beach: What I ought to do is to modify the code according to your patch, and then run my GDB test again. 2015-07-22T04:59:58Z gunnin_gummy: Okay, so I was on 4chan, right? And, like, on every thread created in /prog/, everyone says that SICP is, like, a godly book or something and claims that it will lead to programming satori. 2015-07-22T04:59:58Z beach: It wouldn't surprise me a bit if I would see the same pattern in updateValue. 2015-07-22T05:00:17Z Petit_Dejeuenr joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:00:24Z gunnin_gummy: Are they just jumping on some type of SICP meme bandwagon or are they serious? 2015-07-22T05:00:38Z gunnin_gummy: Like, is SICP as good at these guys on 4chan claim? 2015-07-22T05:00:48Z beach: gunnin_gummy: It is a very good book, yes. 2015-07-22T05:02:05Z gunnin_gummy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:02:07Z stevegt__ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:02:17Z gunnin_gummy_: beach: So, it's true then? The book will help me reach programming satori? 2015-07-22T05:02:43Z nyef: I don't know, I had trouble with SICP until I finally just skipped ahead to chapter three or so. 2015-07-22T05:02:51Z beach: gunnin_gummy_: I will make no such guarantees. 2015-07-22T05:04:04Z gunnin_gummy_: nyef: What about chapters one and two gave you trouble? 2015-07-22T05:04:16Z drmeister: I'm working on moving bindings onto the stack, identifying closed over variables and putting them in closures on the heap. 2015-07-22T05:04:37Z beach: drmeister: OK. 2015-07-22T05:04:39Z nyef: I found them to be tedious and boring, much like the earlier parts of the Dragon Book. 2015-07-22T05:04:46Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:05:00Z gunnin_gummy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T05:05:33Z gunnin_gummy_: nyef: What book did you use to reach programming satori then? 2015-07-22T05:05:37Z beach: drmeister: I guess I will just conduct those experiments on my own in my spare time. 2015-07-22T05:06:29Z drmeister: beach: Did you see the results that I posted earlier today? 2015-07-22T05:06:32Z drmeister: In #clasp 2015-07-22T05:06:36Z beach: drmeister: I did, yes. 2015-07-22T05:06:39Z beach: Very disappointing. 2015-07-22T05:06:54Z nyef: The path that can be trod by reading is not the true path. Practice more! 2015-07-22T05:07:09Z beach: gunnin_gummy_: You are making too many assumptions. First that nyef actually did reach "programming satori" (whatever that might mean) and then that he reached it by using a book. 2015-07-22T05:08:05Z beach: drmeister: Since I seem to be the only one who trusts this technique of getting real traces, I think I will continue doing that for a while in parallel to what you and others are doing. 2015-07-22T05:08:39Z myztic quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T05:08:55Z drmeister: beach: I'm not communicating properly - I like your approach - I've been doing it more. 2015-07-22T05:09:14Z beach: drmeister: Oh, OK. 2015-07-22T05:09:24Z drmeister: I've been tied up the last couple of days with family things. 2015-07-22T05:09:33Z beach: Yes, I understand. 2015-07-22T05:09:42Z drmeister: It's been hard to keep my train of thought. 2015-07-22T05:10:10Z beach: drmeister: Spending time with family is good too. 2015-07-22T05:10:30Z drmeister: But it makes a lot of sense to just break into the program and look around to see what it's up to. 2015-07-22T05:11:02Z beach: I personally think instruction traces are much more reliable both than disassembly and profiling. 2015-07-22T05:11:14Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:11:29Z beach: Disassembly only gives a static view and profiling is less effective with lots of inlining. 2015-07-22T05:11:40Z gunnin_gummy_: So, SICP *will* at least help me reach programming satori, right? I feel like all of the /prog/ posters are just bandwagoning/trolling... 2015-07-22T05:11:54Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T05:12:18Z White_Flame: "programming satori" comes from varied experience (ie, 35 years of writing the same thing does not yield satori) 2015-07-22T05:12:37Z White_Flame: and always being on a lookout for different ways of approaching programmatical problems 2015-07-22T05:12:58Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T05:13:18Z beach: gunnin_gummy_: In the time you have spent asking that question, you could have read a chapter in the book and decided for yourself. I suggest you start doing that. 2015-07-22T05:13:48Z gunnin_gummy_: Really? I hear the chapters are pretty long individually. 2015-07-22T05:14:05Z gunnin_gummy_: You're right, though; I'm wasting time! 2015-07-22T05:14:07Z White_Flame: and yes, on /prog/, SICP is more a meme than anything, even though it is a really good book which includes programming concepts 2015-07-22T05:14:18Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:14:53Z drmeister: beach: I think I understand how to shift a lot of the bindings onto the stack and creating/accessing bindings on the stack is 50x faster than when they are on the heap. I think that's where I'll get a big payout. 2015-07-22T05:15:08Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:15:33Z beach: drmeister: Great! 2015-07-22T05:16:34Z gunnin_gummy_: I hope SICP will help me understand the logic and algorithm(s) behind stuff like this: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_triangle#C 2015-07-22T05:16:56Z gunnin_gummy_: Like, I can't come up with solutions like that in any language (Just used C by default). 2015-07-22T05:16:57Z beach: drmeister: I can't help with design questions like that. I can only do low-hanging fruit like identifying very local performance problems. 2015-07-22T05:18:29Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-22T05:20:22Z beach: gunnin_gummy_: Whether SICP is a good book or not is only marginally on-topic for this channel, which is dedicated to the Common Lisp language. 2015-07-22T05:20:48Z gunnin_gummy_: beach: Ah, ok. My bad. 2015-07-22T05:21:37Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:21:39Z beach: It is hard to tell from the name of the channel. That's why I am telling you. 2015-07-22T05:22:11Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T05:22:45Z Fare: ops, please update the /topic: it's asdf 3.1.5, not 3.15. Also, cl-launch was just updated to 4.1.4 2015-07-22T05:23:19Z beach: Fare: apparently anyone can do it. 2015-07-22T05:25:20Z nyef: beach: Not with the channel mode +t. 2015-07-22T05:25:35Z beach: Oh, OK. Sorry. 2015-07-22T05:27:35Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:28:29Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 187 seconds) 2015-07-22T05:29:37Z gunnin_gummy_ left #lisp 2015-07-22T05:29:47Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 187 seconds) 2015-07-22T05:30:05Z Fare: Hopefully, an sbcl committer updates asdf, too — sbcl currently has local modifications to asdf, and that ain't good support-wise. 2015-07-22T05:32:59Z beach: Fare: Maybe I have asked you this before: what character did you type between "too" and "sbcl"? And in what encoding? 2015-07-22T05:33:16Z beach: Fare: I am asking because it confuses Emacs. 2015-07-22T05:33:23Z Fare: where? 2015-07-22T05:33:28Z Fare: oh 2015-07-22T05:33:31Z Fare: — 2015-07-22T05:33:33Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-22T05:33:48Z Fare: it's basically a — 2015-07-22T05:33:55Z beach: In what encoding? 2015-07-22T05:34:49Z beach: It doesn't appear to be a valid UTF-8 character. 2015-07-22T05:34:51Z Fare: (char-code #\—) ==> 8212 2015-07-22T05:34:55Z Fare: UTF-8, I believe. 2015-07-22T05:34:59Z beach: Hmm. 2015-07-22T05:35:20Z Fare: I'm using xchat 2015-07-22T05:36:11Z beach: It appears to be encoded in a single byte. If so, that would rule out UTF-8. 2015-07-22T05:37:29Z Fare: I thought I had configured my system for UTF-8: λx.¬x 2015-07-22T05:37:47Z beach: That seems to work. Hmm. Strange! 2015-07-22T05:38:11Z beach: Oh well. Not a big deal. Just thought I would ask. 2015-07-22T05:38:22Z Fare: François-René Rideau — Đặng-Vũ Bân — 鄧武彬 — Faré ♯♫ —♯ƒ 2015-07-22T05:38:29Z beach: Heh! 2015-07-22T05:38:38Z beach: Yes, it all works. 2015-07-22T05:38:52Z Fare: Or this libertarian favorite: 𒂼𒄄 2015-07-22T05:39:19Z beach: Less good here. 2015-07-22T05:39:30Z beach: Two squares with numbers in them. 2015-07-22T05:39:41Z White_Flame echoes beach's issues, from Quassel on Linux 2015-07-22T05:39:46Z Fare: yeah well, not all fonts know cuneiform. 2015-07-22T05:39:59Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:40:19Z Fare: gtg 2015-07-22T05:40:34Z Fare converted more scripts to use cl-scripting. Yay. 2015-07-22T05:40:43Z Fare: gits 2015-07-22T05:40:51Z Fare: dammit, wrong window 2015-07-22T05:41:07Z H4ns joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:41:20Z Fare: anyway, scripting with CL is fun. 2015-07-22T05:41:23Z Fare: bye! 2015-07-22T05:41:27Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T05:43:00Z rvchangu- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T05:43:09Z Akshay_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T05:46:28Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T05:47:28Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-22T05:49:45Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T05:53:30Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T05:59:18Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:04:29Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:04:35Z rritoch: Is there a CL equivalent of the clojure partial function https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/partial , taking a function or lambda and returning a lambda which applies the given arguments? 2015-07-22T06:04:50Z H4ns: rritoch: alexandria:partial 2015-07-22T06:07:50Z rritoch: H4ns: Thanks, so basically no, it isn't included in the CL standard. Is alexandria a common dependency? I see it's over 8 years old. 2015-07-22T06:08:07Z H4ns: rritoch: it is very common and not "over 8 years old" 2015-07-22T06:08:15Z rritoch: H4ns: It's age makes me assume it's a popular library 2015-07-22T06:08:39Z rritoch: H4ns: Looking at the project, there are posts over 9 years ago 2015-07-22T06:08:41Z rritoch: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/tree/master 2015-07-22T06:08:46Z H4ns: rritoch: ah, i see, you meant its age, not its last update. 2015-07-22T06:08:48Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:09:23Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T06:09:25Z H4ns: rritoch: xach regularly posts quicklisp dependency statistics, have look at that to learn what's used and what not 2015-07-22T06:10:26Z H4ns: rritoch: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/05/april-2015-download-stats.html 2015-07-22T06:10:50Z rritoch: H4ns: Thanks. I think you read my mind 2015-07-22T06:12:03Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:13:50Z kami joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:15:20Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T06:15:54Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:17:43Z kami quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T06:19:00Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T06:21:47Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:22:36Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:23:03Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T06:23:56Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:24:39Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:26:38Z kami`: Good morning. 2015-07-22T06:26:42Z kami` is now known as kami 2015-07-22T06:26:56Z Firedancer: heyho 2015-07-22T06:28:15Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:29:20Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-22T06:30:46Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T06:31:15Z otwieracz: Morning! 2015-07-22T06:32:31Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:34:58Z roscoe_tw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T06:35:11Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:35:12Z roscoe_tw joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:35:26Z Firedancer: Is there actual lisp compiler that works well in Windows environment out of the box? 2015-07-22T06:36:10Z H4ns: Firedancer: clozure cl, sbcl, corman cl, allegro cl, lispworks 2015-07-22T06:36:17Z H4ns: Firedancer: also clisp 2015-07-22T06:37:38Z jackdaniel: ecl works fine as well 2015-07-22T06:37:43Z rritoch: Is the output of (directory-namestring (first (directory "*"))) canonical? I need to get a list of all files and directory recursively, starting at some parent directory, but I don't want to risk an infinite loop from things like unix symbolic links. To do that I believe I need to compare the canonical path of the parent directory, to those of the child directories. 2015-07-22T06:37:47Z H4ns: so, basically anything. 2015-07-22T06:38:07Z Firedancer: I tried to look into sbcl, but their site is in sourceforge and their github repo seems to need another lisp compiler to compile it 2015-07-22T06:38:37Z rritoch: The requirement is that it must be done in common-lisp, no third party dependency. 2015-07-22T06:39:51Z H4ns: rritoch: (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :defaults the-other-path) is a bit better, but in general, cl pathnames are not good for handling arbitrary files. 2015-07-22T06:40:18Z H4ns: Firedancer: well, now one of the many options is ruled out. look at clozure cl next. 2015-07-22T06:41:57Z Firedancer: H4ns: Thanks for help. Clozure cl at least looks promising. I will take closer look at when I get to my home computer 2015-07-22T06:42:31Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:43:47Z rritoch: H4ns: What about truename ? Is that canonical? 2015-07-22T06:44:25Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:44:34Z H4ns: rritoch: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_tn.htm 2015-07-22T06:44:46Z jackdaniel: cl-fad has canonical-pathname afair 2015-07-22T06:48:06Z mlrutherford quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-22T06:48:14Z rritoch: H4ns: Seems vague, like they specifically avoided the word canonical, but based on the note that "for any filename translations performed by the filesystem" I should be able to trust it. If it dies I can always use java interop instead. 2015-07-22T06:49:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:50:21Z loz1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-22T06:50:56Z H4ns: rritoch: they don't "specifically avoid the word canonical" - the word was not in common use when the spec was written. and, as i said, common lisp's pathname system in general is not good at handling abitrary files generated by other applications on the host system. 2015-07-22T06:51:47Z opusp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T06:55:23Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T06:56:38Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:56:55Z pjb: rritoch: directory-namestring and any namestring function will return a string that is totally implementation dependant. 2015-07-22T06:57:13Z opusp joined #lisp 2015-07-22T06:58:10Z pjb: rritoch: furthermore. (directory "*") should return only pathnames to files without type; but some implementation on unix take the unix word too seriously, and also return directory pathnames! (this is not conforming). Also, DIRECTORY returns TRUENAMEs, so the pathnames returned can be in different directories, depending on the symbolic links present (and the behavior of the implementation). 2015-07-22T06:58:28Z pjb: rritoch: so "canonical" is totally meaningless in this context. Whatever you get from it is what you get from it. 2015-07-22T06:59:32Z pjb: rritoch: if you want to get pathnames from a "root" directory, you can use :wild-inferiors, (directory "/some/base/path/**/*.txt") will return all the files found under /some/base/path/, but again, those pathnames being truenames, could be outside of /some/base/path/! 2015-07-22T07:00:03Z pjb: rritoch: some implementations will signal errors if they cannot read or write some directory in the subtree. 2015-07-22T07:00:57Z pjb: rritoch: in conclusion: if you want to work with a posix file system and perform posixy actions such as finding all the files in subdirectory, don't use operator from the CL package. Use POSIX extensions. Some implementations provide a POSIX or SB-POSIX package. 2015-07-22T07:01:13Z pjb: In general you can use CFFI to gain access to POSIX functions. 2015-07-22T07:04:21Z pjb: For example, you could use ftw(3) or nftw(30. 2015-07-22T07:04:22Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-22T07:04:23Z pjb: s/0/)/ 2015-07-22T07:04:35Z therik joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:05:40Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:05:50Z pjb left #lisp 2015-07-22T07:06:00Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:06:38Z gensym joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:07:16Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T07:08:51Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T07:09:55Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:12:06Z alex6407 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T07:12:27Z alex6407 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:12:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T07:14:35Z p_l_ is now known as p_l 2015-07-22T07:18:00Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:18:26Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-22T07:18:49Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:20:10Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:24:40Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:26:15Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T07:26:23Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T07:27:34Z hocwp joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:29:17Z danielglh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T07:32:24Z keen__________28 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:33:24Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:33:32Z keen__________27 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T07:39:26Z opusp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T07:40:58Z ronh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T07:43:55Z opusp joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:46:23Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:47:40Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-22T07:49:10Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T07:52:00Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T07:53:20Z drmeister: beach: Are you still there? 2015-07-22T07:53:49Z drmeister: If you see this, I just pushed a new version of environment.cc 2015-07-22T07:53:58Z drmeister: It has the cpp variable #define USE_STATIC_CAST_FOR_ENVIRONMENT 1 2015-07-22T07:54:16Z drmeister: You can set it to 0 or 1 and control if it uses dynamic_cast vs static_cast 2015-07-22T07:54:35Z drmeister: The results are a bit disappointing, static_cast doesn't improve things 2015-07-22T07:54:53Z drmeister: I think the problems elsewhere are larger. 2015-07-22T08:01:04Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:01:04Z nml quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 39.0/20150630154324]) 2015-07-22T08:01:05Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:01:58Z opusp quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T08:02:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:03:59Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T08:05:30Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T08:09:55Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:10:15Z opusp joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:10:22Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T08:11:08Z zmikund joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:14:09Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-22T08:14:22Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:15:28Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T08:16:26Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-22T08:17:09Z rritoch: Does anyone see any immediate problems with this code to safely retrive files recursively? https://github.com/rritoch/abclp/blob/master/src/main/abclp/META-INF/abcl/abclp/javac/javac.lisp#L32-L42 2015-07-22T08:18:57Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:19:56Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-22T08:21:17Z H4ns: rritoch: loop has a COLLECT clause that you should use instead of the ugly setq business. 2015-07-22T08:23:44Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2015-07-22T08:23:44Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:25:41Z rritoch: H4ns: Thanks, but how do I collect all from a list? I don't want to end up with (((some paths....)) (more paths) ...), I just want a flat list. Collecting the files isn't really a problem, but the directories may be. 2015-07-22T08:26:53Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:28:37Z H4ns: rritoch: i can't fix the code for you, but i'd not accept this in a code review. 2015-07-22T08:29:12Z rritoch: H4ns: I'm not asking you to fix it. I'm asking how you collect a list (flatly) 2015-07-22T08:29:43Z rritoch: If I collect (list "A") I end up with (("A")) which is NOT what I want 2015-07-22T08:29:44Z H4ns: (loop for x in '(1 2 3) collect x) => (1 2 3) 2015-07-22T08:30:02Z H4ns: you could also read, say, the LOOP chapter in PCL. 2015-07-22T08:32:48Z rritoch: H4ns: Your code doesn't work for recursion 2015-07-22T08:33:22Z rritoch: Here is an example I tested. (loop for a in (list (list "A" "B") (list "C" "D")) collect (loop for x in a collect x)) 2015-07-22T08:33:49Z H4ns: rritoch: i did not tell you about the APPEND clause, but the LOOP chapter in PCL would have done it. 2015-07-22T08:33:54Z rritoch: Basicallyl this just mimics the conditions that I'd run into if there were two subdirectories each with two files. 2015-07-22T08:35:27Z rritoch: I really don't know where the PCL docs are, I'm currently just looking in google's cache of the common lisp cookbook 2015-07-22T08:35:49Z H4ns: minion: tell rritoch about pcl 2015-07-22T08:35:49Z minion: rritoch: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-22T08:36:17Z rritoch: H4ns: Thanks. 2015-07-22T08:36:47Z rritoch: H4ns: append isn't mentioned in the cookbook I was looking at 2015-07-22T08:37:19Z H4ns: rritoch: you don't learn cooking by following cookbook recipies either. 2015-07-22T08:38:06Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:38:09Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:40:21Z Akshay_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T08:41:08Z Akshay_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:44:46Z rritoch: H4ns: Is this more to your liking? https://github.com/rritoch/abclp/blob/master/src/main/abclp/META-INF/abcl/abclp/javac/javac.lisp#L32-L40 2015-07-22T08:45:00Z pjb: rritoch: you can use :wild instead of "*" in the call to make-pathname. 2015-07-22T08:45:19Z pjb: rritoch: I wouldn't expect (directory (make-pathname :name :wild)) to return pathnames to directories. 2015-07-22T08:45:31Z rritoch: pjp: Ok, so :name nil with :wild 2015-07-22T08:45:40Z pjb: rritoch: to get directories, use (make-pathname :directory '(:relative :wild) :name nil :type nil) 2015-07-22T08:45:56Z H4ns: rritoch: replace the IF with WHEN, remove the (LIST) call, then you're done. 2015-07-22T08:46:35Z rritoch: H4ns: I don't want it to return nil, that's what the final (list) is for. 2015-07-22T08:46:44Z pjb: rritoch: if you want to cater to bad implementations, you can do: (remove-duplicates (append (directory (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:relative :wild) :name nil :type nil) dir-pathname) (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory nil :name :wild :type :wild) dir-pathname))) :test (function equalp)) 2015-07-22T08:47:18Z H4ns: (eql (list) nil) => T 2015-07-22T08:48:10Z pjb: Ie: http://paste.lisp.org/+39CI 2015-07-22T08:48:17Z pjb: rritoch: ^ 2015-07-22T08:48:19Z rritoch: H4ns: Well that sux, but I'm sure it's in the standard. 2015-07-22T08:50:12Z H4ns: you're missing the basics, and that makes supporting you suck. 2015-07-22T08:51:06Z H4ns: like "i did not know that nil is equal to the empty list" "oh no? well, that's material for your first lesson, did you not pay attention back then?" 2015-07-22T08:51:09Z pjb: rritoch: check: http://paste.lisp.org/+39CI/1 2015-07-22T08:52:34Z rritoch: H4ns: There are huge gaps in my memory, I haven't coded in Lisp for 20 years. The only reason I'm considering it is because ABCL runs on JVM. 2015-07-22T08:52:51Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-22T08:53:17Z H4ns: rritoch: then it is time to brush up by reading some structured material on the topic, as you've quite obviously forgot many important and basic things. 2015-07-22T08:58:08Z pjb: rritoch: yes, PCL could be a good read for you. 2015-07-22T08:58:18Z pjb: minion: tell rritoch about PCL 2015-07-22T08:58:19Z minion: rritoch: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-22T09:01:02Z rritoch: pjb: Thanks. 2015-07-22T09:01:24Z spacebat1: I was reading some source at work today and saw the phrase "seibel parameter" 2015-07-22T09:01:41Z rritoch: H4ns: I really don't know what the damn problem is, Beach hates me because I have 30 years experience, you hate me because I don't have enough recent lisp experience, it seems there's no winning with most of "you people". 2015-07-22T09:01:57Z pjb: rritoch: I like you! :-) 2015-07-22T09:02:09Z spacebat1: had to do some digging for that, they were likening some http parameter handling to the web chapter of PCL 2015-07-22T09:02:43Z rritoch: pjb: I like you too, Your extremly intelligent, and level-headed, if I had half your patience I'd probably have a much higher client retention rate. 2015-07-22T09:03:06Z spacebat1: some clients don't deserve retention 2015-07-22T09:03:36Z H4ns: rritoch: cool story bro 2015-07-22T09:04:09Z rritoch: H4ns: I started programming on a commadore 64, you do the math. 2015-07-22T09:04:42Z H4ns: rritoch: and that is supposed to tell me what? 2015-07-22T09:05:03Z spacebat1: nothing like peek and poke 2015-07-22T09:05:27Z spacebat1: sounds all kinds of rude now I'm an old man 2015-07-22T09:05:48Z spacebat1 is now known as spacebat 2015-07-22T09:08:02Z dim: Fare: around? 2015-07-22T09:08:05Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-22T09:08:11Z rritoch: I'm actually surprised there aren't more old-timers in here, Lisp was considered "old" when I was in college. 2015-07-22T09:09:03Z H4ns: rritoch: not everyone feels the need to vent their glorious path all the time, or use it as an excuse to refuse to lern the basics 2015-07-22T09:09:14Z dim: minion: memo for Fare: can you update cl-asdf debian package in sid please? 2015-07-22T09:09:15Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-22T09:09:29Z rritoch: spacebat1: I was only 7 years old, other than manually typing in binary apps with poke/peek I didn't deal with any binary, I was mostly just writing mad-libs in basic at the time. 2015-07-22T09:09:32Z pjb: I guess old timers are tired of newbies telling them that lisp is old and that a new standard should be done to increase popularity, and why if lisp is so good, nobody uses it :-) 2015-07-22T09:09:57Z pjb: Instead, they write lisp code and have fun. 2015-07-22T09:10:44Z spacebat: I thought I'd learn CL before scheme or clojure, and I'm still here 2015-07-22T09:11:09Z spacebat: I've been wondering how schemers get by without unwind-protect 2015-07-22T09:11:17Z wukawuka joined #lisp 2015-07-22T09:11:51Z jdz: they come up with schemes to work around the lack of unwind-protect 2015-07-22T09:12:12Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-22T09:12:12Z jdz: they're called schemers for a reason 2015-07-22T09:12:23Z pjb: They have a dynamic-wind or something. 2015-07-22T09:12:35Z rritoch: pjb: Well, there are some valid points to that. Adding in some popular algorithms to make a new standard couldn't hurt, and dealing with the major problems that have been run into over the years, such as cross platform filesystem work. No one is working in flat filesystems anymore so there isn't much need to support them anymore. 2015-07-22T09:12:43Z spacebat: yeah not the same 2015-07-22T09:12:55Z spacebat: call/cc and all bets are off 2015-07-22T09:13:01Z pjb: rritoch: nope. This comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of what lisp is. 2015-07-22T09:13:15Z pjb: rritoch: you can change the language as you wish using libraries. 2015-07-22T09:14:00Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T09:14:04Z pjb: There's only one thing that would require an addendum to the standard, is to specify the semantics in presence of threads. But basically, this would just be documenting what implementations already do. 2015-07-22T09:14:05Z spacebat: I have no doubt CL will eventually either change or dwindle, but not today 2015-07-22T09:14:51Z rritoch: pjb: But I don't think lisp will ever be truly popular amoung average programmers. I was introduced to lisp by a college professor after she reviewed some pascal "abusive" code I had made to produce dynamic features in a non-dynamic language. 2015-07-22T09:14:53Z H4ns: cl is an impressive cathedral that is built to last forever 2015-07-22T09:15:18Z spacebat: it is impressive, but forever is a long time :) 2015-07-22T09:15:19Z H4ns: there will always be some high priests who care for it 2015-07-22T09:15:29Z spacebat: true, it won't die 2015-07-22T09:15:55Z H4ns: may i direct your attention to http://www.zx81.de/? :) 2015-07-22T09:16:32Z pjb: Bah! I'm having fun with a Ti59 on my Android phone :-) 2015-07-22T09:16:43Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T09:16:58Z spacebat: I wanted a zx81 once - got a TI99/4a for xmas instead 2015-07-22T09:17:03Z spacebat: but loved it all the same 2015-07-22T09:17:22Z spacebat: if only it had been a TI explorer :) 2015-07-22T09:17:41Z H4ns: heh, yeah. i could not afford the ti, so i ended up with a zx81 kit back then. 2015-07-22T09:17:55Z pjb: If I had money to spare, I'd buy a Heatkit H-11 with the punchtape reader and the VTY :-) 2015-07-22T09:18:29Z pjb: It's compatible with PDP-11, so I could install some old lisp on it :-) 2015-07-22T09:20:23Z zmikund quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T09:20:54Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T09:20:56Z Akshay_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T09:21:17Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T09:24:17Z rritoch: pjb: You also have to consider that Clojure is currently swallowing up 99% of the potential new lisp developers. The only reason I abandoned Clojure is because there's no Clojure standard, while it is open source, it is proprietary in the fact that one company has final say over what defines the clojure language. 2015-07-22T09:25:58Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T09:26:15Z rritoch: pjp: Once ANSI, IEEE, or any other reputable standards association produces a Clojure standard there will be very little need for Lisp, other than supporting legacy applications. 2015-07-22T09:27:30Z rritoch: pjb: Straight out of the "horses mouth" the developers at #clojure made it clear they had no intention of supporting any standards though, so it is unlikely to ever happen. 2015-07-22T09:27:33Z pjb: And say you, how much time after the Clojure standard will Shen get a standard and make Clojure code legacy? 2015-07-22T09:28:59Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YppxEYkqTU 2015-07-22T09:29:03Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-22T09:29:46Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-22T09:30:23Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T09:30:31Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T09:30:51Z lambda-smith: Meh, standards are overrated 2015-07-22T09:30:53Z Firedancer: Isn't Clojure's appeal that it works on well on business side of things. Does it really even overlap with the user groups of other lisp variants? 2015-07-22T09:31:08Z rritoch: pjb: Well, that's the reality of the industry. I didn't learn over a dozen languages because I wanted to, 99% of them I learned out of necessity because clients wanted something "new". 2015-07-22T09:31:46Z pjb: Firedancer: I'm just asking: Clojure, how many startup exits? Common Lisp: at least 2 that I know of (ViaWeb, ITA software). 2015-07-22T09:31:48Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-22T09:32:12Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T09:32:19Z H4ns: lambda-smith: except that if there was no common lisp standard, the language would be even more marginalized and fragmented by now. 2015-07-22T09:32:28Z lambda-smith: True, true. 2015-07-22T09:32:53Z rritoch: Firedancer: Clojure's comparability with lisp, other than a few common function names, and parenthesis is limited, at best. 2015-07-22T09:32:58Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T09:33:17Z lambda-smith: rritoch: Have you use Clojure? There are more differences than that 2015-07-22T09:33:21Z pjb: pointlessly so. 2015-07-22T09:33:33Z rritoch: As for H4ns's comment, that is happening a LOT, right now, to Clojure, everyone who wants a new clojure feature, is forking it, because they're rejecting 99% of the features companies need. 2015-07-22T09:33:42Z lambda-smith: For example, the fact that it's so tied to its host language/environment is both a blessing and a curse. 2015-07-22T09:34:25Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-22T09:34:26Z lambda-smith: For exampe, there are no "native" function to cast string to int in Clojure, you need to use Java's Integer.parseInt static method to do so. 2015-07-22T09:34:31Z Firedancer: rritoch: that's why I think that what ever happens to Clojure doesn't really affect any other lisp variant 2015-07-22T09:34:34Z rritoch: lambda-smith: I developed some specialized apps for the financial industry using clojure, for nearly a year. Users included BOA, Bain Capital, Goldman Sachs, etc. 2015-07-22T09:34:46Z lambda-smith: rritoch: Impressive 2015-07-22T09:34:54Z H4ns: i hoped to hear that story again, rritoch 2015-07-22T09:35:36Z lambda-smith: rritoch: Don't get me wrong, I like Clojure, but I find that it's a very specilized Lisp dialect with its own pros and cons. 2015-07-22T09:36:01Z rritoch: H4ns: I'll pm you the details. There's some legal issues I don't want to deal with. 2015-07-22T09:36:19Z rritoch: H4ns: Like it or not, I have no reason to lie. 2015-07-22T09:36:20Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-22T09:36:20Z H4ns: rritoch: your irony detector failed you 2015-07-22T09:36:33Z lambda-smith: Sure, Clojure might (or already) becomes the most popular Lisp, but I personally think that's a good thing, because it's easier to convince a Clojurist to try other Lisps than people who've never programmed a Lisp before. 2015-07-22T09:37:11Z lambda-smith: rritoch: Just a rough detail should more than suffice, I'm also intersted in hearing your story too 2015-07-22T09:37:33Z jackdaniel: (defmethoid detect-irony ((speaker (eql H4ns))) T) ;; ;) 2015-07-22T09:37:45Z rritoch: lambda-smith: Well, 99% of my clojure experience is covered by a NDA 2015-07-22T09:38:19Z H4ns: jackdaniel: that should be a sane default 2015-07-22T09:38:26Z rritoch: lambda-smith: Beyond that. Clojure is extremly good with parallel processing due to it's reliance on imutable data types. 2015-07-22T09:38:50Z rritoch: lambda-smith: I don't recall a single time where I ran into a race condition in clojure. 2015-07-22T09:39:25Z lambda-smith: Sweet, that's all I wanted to hear, really 2015-07-22T09:39:30Z lambda-smith: Just your impression of the language 2015-07-22T09:39:50Z pjb: It's kind of avoiding the problem. 2015-07-22T09:39:56Z lambda-smith: Well, then I guess Clojure suceed in its mission, that's good to hear. 2015-07-22T09:40:08Z lambda-smith thinking of a way to apply Clojure ideas to CL 2015-07-22T09:40:29Z pjb: There's not a lot of thinking to do, you can avoid mutation in CL easily. 2015-07-22T09:41:31Z jackdaniel: hm, prevailing paradigm is important too. most cl libs doesn't avoid mutation 2015-07-22T09:41:35Z lambda-smith: spacebat: do try Scheme & Clojure. they are both fun & pleasant to use in their own way 2015-07-22T09:44:22Z pjb: jackdaniel: if you cons memory, you are mutating! 2015-07-22T09:44:27Z jackdaniel: pjb: indeed 2015-07-22T09:44:31Z pjb: it's called the MUTATOR! 2015-07-22T09:44:45Z jackdaniel: pjb: I'm pretty sure you get my point ;) 2015-07-22T09:44:54Z pjb: Sure. 2015-07-22T09:44:58Z jackdaniel: so won't explain it, since my english is much worse then yours :P 2015-07-22T09:45:27Z pjb: Even my purely function stuff uses mutation: inside a function you can mutate the newly created data all you wish, and once it gets out of the function, you leave it immutable. 2015-07-22T09:45:48Z lambda-smith tried creating a 2x1000 matrix last night, and found that using vector is a lot faster than list 2015-07-22T09:45:58Z lambda-smith: Guess I couldn't use list for everything :( 2015-07-22T09:46:09Z pjb: lambda-smith: and using a 2D array even faster: (make-array '(2 1000) :initial-element 0) 2015-07-22T09:46:26Z lambda-smith: pjb: Oh. My. God. CL has 2D array? 2015-07-22T09:46:36Z lambda-smith: Thanks pjb! 2015-07-22T09:46:39Z pjb: lambda-smith: N-dimensional arrays! 2015-07-22T09:46:51Z H4ns: lambda-smith: you could even use a two-dimensional array to represent a two-dimensional array 2015-07-22T09:46:55Z pjb: clhs array-dimension-limit 2015-07-22T09:46:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_dim.htm 2015-07-22T09:46:56Z lambda-smith is in an nth dimensional matrix heaven 2015-07-22T09:47:10Z pjb: A conforming implementation must support at least 1024-dimensions! 2015-07-22T09:47:24Z lambda-smith: Thanks guys, I should really study the spec more carefully. 2015-07-22T09:47:54Z jackdaniel: shame if someone needs 1025 dimensions, he can't relay on standard then! 2015-07-22T09:47:55Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-22T09:47:57Z pjb: What about Clojure? Can you have 1024-dimension arrays? (based on 32-trees?) 2015-07-22T09:48:24Z pjb: jackdaniel: nope. You can test the implementation value of array-dimension-limit, but if it's 1024, you will have to implement it yourself. 2015-07-22T09:48:35Z jackdaniel: right 2015-07-22T09:48:50Z lambda-smith: all for that one extra dimension, eh? :P 2015-07-22T09:48:57Z pjb: jackdaniel: also notice that array-total-size-limit lower bound is also 1024. 2015-07-22T09:49:41Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-07-22T09:50:31Z jackdaniel: /me dives back into his private typography hell 2015-07-22T09:50:31Z pjb: So if array-total-size-limit=1024, then you can only allocate three kinds of 1024-dimensions arrays: one that has all dimensions but one = 1, and one = 1024, one that has all dimensions = 1 (therefore a single element), and one that has at least one dimension = 0, and therefore no element. :-) 2015-07-22T09:53:22Z rritoch: pjb: What about using a linked list pattern? Wouldn't that be easier? 2015-07-22T09:53:49Z rritoch: pjb: Or is there some hidden depth limit also? 2015-07-22T09:53:54Z pjb: An implementation that has a low array-total-size-limit is probably very memory limited. 2015-07-22T09:54:17Z pjb: No limits on lists, apart from the memory. 2015-07-22T09:54:36Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T09:55:08Z pjb: Notice that array indices are fixnums, and the lower likmit for fixnums is signed 16-bit. 2015-07-22T09:56:40Z pjb: OOPS: I made a mistake, array-dimension-limit is the limit for indices. ARRAY-RANK-LIMIT is the limit on dimensions, and the lower bound is 8. So 8 is the number of dimensions you can count on. 2015-07-22T09:57:05Z pjb: Anyways, with 16-bit fixnums, the maximum for ARRAY-RANK-LIMIT is 32767. 2015-07-22T09:57:09Z lambda-smith: rritoch: Also, creating a large list (say 1,000 elements) using linked list is slower than using vector in Common Lisp 2015-07-22T09:57:19Z lambda-smith: At least from what I've tried, I'm no CL expert btw. 2015-07-22T09:57:43Z jackdaniel: depends on how it is implemented, but generally for random access vectors are faster 2015-07-22T09:57:50Z jackdaniel: then lists 2015-07-22T09:58:01Z lambda-smith: rritoch: say, what IDE did you used at your Clojure job? 2015-07-22T09:58:01Z jackdaniel: than° 2015-07-22T09:58:18Z pjb: That said, nowadays most-positive-fixnum is more like 1152921504606846975. 2015-07-22T09:58:23Z H4ns: lambda-smith: #clojure is a fine channel to discuss clojure IDEs 2015-07-22T09:58:33Z lambda-smith: Ah sorry for being off-topic :P 2015-07-22T09:59:07Z quasus: if a 1024-dimensional array admits two values for any component, its capacity can be estimated as 2^1024 > (2^10)^100 > (10^3)^100 = 10^300; way too large 2015-07-22T09:59:12Z rritoch: lambda-smith: I use eclipse for everything, including CL 2015-07-22T09:59:35Z pjb: quasus: indeed. 2015-07-22T10:00:01Z quasus left #lisp 2015-07-22T10:01:36Z lambda-smith: *sigh* sbcl website is still down 2015-07-22T10:02:08Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T10:02:35Z jackdaniel: o, ML are available already 2015-07-22T10:02:45Z jackdaniel: I'll dump ecl's this evening 2015-07-22T10:03:23Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T10:06:41Z rritoch: Is there any advantage or disadvantage to storing a 2-tuple in an array vs a list? In this java compiler code I need to get a list of all source files and their basepaths (touple of basepath,source file) for the sake of matching source code to compiled binaries (.class files), but with such a small array I don't know if there's any advantage to using an array for it. 2015-07-22T10:07:08Z pjb: rritoch: cons cells are lighter than vectors of length 2. 2015-07-22T10:07:30Z pjb: arrays need to keep around the element type, their dimensions, whether they are adjustable or have a fill-pointer. 2015-07-22T10:07:35Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:07:57Z pjb: So a 2-vector is bound to be bigger than a cons cell. 2015-07-22T10:08:21Z pjb: Notice, I'm saying cons cell, not list. A list of 2 elements uses 2 cons cells. 2015-07-22T10:08:42Z pjb: (cons 1 2) --> (1 . 2) vs. (list 1 2) --> (1 . (2 . nil)) vs. (vector 1 2) --> #(1 2) 2015-07-22T10:08:54Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:10:06Z rritoch: pjb: That clairifies another issue Ihave somewhat 2015-07-22T10:11:11Z rritoch: pjb: I wrote some horrible code to convert a list of lists into an associative list, but I'm not sure it's correct because some of the output doesn't have the "." showing. 2015-07-22T10:11:44Z pjb: rritoch: that depends. If the value is an atom, then you will have dots, but if the value is a list, then it won't display the dot. 2015-07-22T10:12:08Z pjb: (quote ((:a . 1) (:b . (2 3 4)))) --> ((:a . 1) (:b 2 3 4)) 2015-07-22T10:12:19Z pjb: ((:a . 1) (:b 2 3 4)) and ((:a . 1) (:b . (2 3 4))) are the same thing. 2015-07-22T10:13:47Z rritoch: pjb: You can see the code here https://github.com/rritoch/abclp/blob/master/src/main/abclp/META-INF/abcl/abclp/abclp.lisp#L71-L75 and it is fair to saythat the code is horrible, but the resulting associative list does function so I'm not sure if it's wrong or not because it works. 2015-07-22T10:14:30Z rritoch: pjb: I did use acons at theend though to add in the name & version 2015-07-22T10:17:13Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:18:14Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T10:19:06Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:30:03Z Guthur quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T10:30:25Z scymtym__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T10:30:38Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:31:33Z pjb: rritoch: http://paste.lisp.org/+39CI/2 2015-07-22T10:31:55Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:32:15Z pjb: I don't have the input data, so I can't say about your a-list. 2015-07-22T10:32:39Z pjb: Packages are named by strings! 2015-07-22T10:33:17Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:33:27Z pjb: If you use symbols as string designators, you are getting those symbols interned in the current package, and this can bother you when you will use a package exporting symbols with the same name, which will occur often when you use interned symbols in the defpackage form. 2015-07-22T10:34:56Z pjb: Calling functions whose name is obtained from external data is a security risk. It may be better to build a hash-table mapping command names to functions, even if it could be computed, to avoid an evil user providing you with a function such as CL:DELETE-FILE or something. 2015-07-22T10:37:05Z rritoch: pjb: I don't think that's possible seeing I prepend abclp/ to the package name. 2015-07-22T10:37:33Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T10:37:39Z rritoch: pjb: This is for a build system, so if someone wants to destroy their own development system, I'm not going to stop them. 2015-07-22T10:37:44Z pjb: At the very least, you should wrap the call in a handler-case or ignore-errors to deal with invalid input data. 2015-07-22T10:37:49Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:38:11Z rritoch: As for the source of the "project.lisp" file, it should always be looking in the CWD 2015-07-22T10:38:39Z pjb: rritoch: the point here is that lisp uses *default-pathname-defaults* and this variable is not the unix process current working directory. 2015-07-22T10:39:48Z pjb: With some implementations, binding *default-pathname-defaults* to #P"" or #P"./" would fall back to CWD. 2015-07-22T10:40:16Z rritoch: pjb: Well, that is problematic, so whats the standard way to grab CWD or should I just grab it from java since this is specifically for ABCL? 2015-07-22T10:40:42Z pjb: (uiop:getcwd) 2015-07-22T10:40:51Z pjb: I don't know if that works with abcl. 2015-07-22T10:42:01Z loke: pjb: Seems to work fine on my abcl 2015-07-22T10:42:25Z pjb: ok 2015-07-22T10:42:49Z pjb: uiop comes with asdf, so you can count on it. At least, I do. 2015-07-22T10:43:32Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:43:52Z loke: I count on anything available in QL :-) 2015-07-22T10:44:01Z loke: (well, almost everything) 2015-07-22T10:44:04Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-22T10:45:19Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:45:51Z otwieracz: XachX: ping 2015-07-22T10:46:25Z XachX: otwieracz: hi 2015-07-22T10:46:30Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:46:41Z otwieracz: XachX: Do you saw my mail? :) 2015-07-22T10:47:01Z XachX: otwieracz: i don't know. 2015-07-22T10:47:30Z XachX: What was it about? 2015-07-22T10:48:15Z otwieracz: Embedded quicklisp setup. 2015-07-22T10:48:29Z XachX: otwieracz: no. 2015-07-22T10:48:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T10:48:59Z otwieracz: To: zach <AT> quicklisp .DOT. org ← that's correct? 2015-07-22T10:49:55Z XachX: Yes. Maybe it has been bespammed. 2015-07-22T10:50:00Z FreeBird_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T10:50:17Z otwieracz: Maybe. 2015-07-22T10:50:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:50:26Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T10:51:12Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:52:05Z XachX: otwieracz: I can't find any embedded email. 2015-07-22T10:52:15Z rritoch: pjb: Well, thanks for the feedback. You didn't actually change the code that I dislike, the map 'list ... to create the associative list. It is a big refactor though so it's going to take me some time to process the issues. 2015-07-22T10:52:37Z wukawuka quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-22T10:53:02Z pjb: rritoch: As I said, I don't know your input. perhaps you can use alexandria:plist-alist? 2015-07-22T10:54:01Z pjb: But since you use it apparently for apply, you don't want an a-list (unless the functions are defined with &rest and take cons cells in the rest arguments? 2015-07-22T10:54:15Z pjb: There are too many unspecified things he re. 2015-07-22T10:54:26Z rritoch: pjb: I can't use any dependencies other than what's natively provided by ABCL for this. 2015-07-22T10:54:38Z pjb: and quicklisp you said? 2015-07-22T10:55:05Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:55:50Z rritoch: pjb: It will be the job of this app to load and install quicklisp, and somehow manage the quicklisp dependencies so that they're included in the generated uberjars. 2015-07-22T10:55:56Z pjb: ok. 2015-07-22T10:56:09Z pjb: It would help if you lisppasted a project.lisp file. 2015-07-22T10:56:23Z rritoch: pjb: If I were to use dependencies, than every app compile with this would be forced into that dependency, which isn't good. 2015-07-22T10:57:23Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-22T10:57:37Z rritoch: pjb: This is purly based on the leiningen system so > https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj but replacing all [] with () and {} with name-value lists. 2015-07-22T10:59:35Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-22T11:00:01Z Poenikatu joined #lisp 2015-07-22T11:00:43Z Poenikatu left #lisp 2015-07-22T11:09:34Z copycat quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T11:13:59Z pjb: rritoch: check http://paste.lisp.org/+39CI/3 2015-07-22T11:14:47Z pjb: rritoch: you could define a defproject macro to define a project object (use defclass to define the project class), so that you would be able to perform sophisticated project processing. 2015-07-22T11:15:06Z pjb: rritoch: What is the purpose? 2015-07-22T11:16:10Z rritoch: pjb: The ultimate purpose is to generate jar's, war's, and bundles. 2015-07-22T11:16:39Z rritoch: pjb: For now it's only purpose is re-learning lisp 2015-07-22T11:19:30Z pjb: for java projects or for lisp projects? 2015-07-22T11:19:38Z pjb: it may be the same, right. 2015-07-22T11:19:43Z rritoch: pjb: For hybrid projects mostly 2015-07-22T11:20:02Z pjb: ok. And then you might install quicklisp and use asdf for the lisp part. 2015-07-22T11:20:30Z pjb: Perhaps you may generate some asdf defsystem forms for the lisp part of a project defined in a clj. 2015-07-22T11:21:53Z pjb: So I would definitely defclass project with all those attributes and define a defproject macro, so you could instead: (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable *clj-readtable*))) (load "project.clj")) and then have a variable bound to the project object. 2015-07-22T11:23:35Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-22T11:23:38Z pjb: Definiting a complete clojure readtable could be a separate projects that would be useful to the rest of the world, to read clojure sources. 2015-07-22T11:25:53Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T11:29:00Z pjb: In anycase, if you want a list of arguments for an apply, you want a plist: http://paste.lisp.org/+39CI/4 2015-07-22T11:30:50Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T11:34:22Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-22T11:37:00Z perpetuum joined #lisp 2015-07-22T11:38:39Z perpetuum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T11:39:17Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T11:42:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T11:43:28Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-22T11:47:53Z otwieracz: XachX: may I have one more question? 2015-07-22T11:48:10Z XachX: otwieracz: what's up? 2015-07-22T11:48:21Z otwieracz: CL-USER> (ql:list-local-systems) 2015-07-22T11:48:21Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-22T11:48:24Z otwieracz: ("pm" …) 2015-07-22T11:48:29Z otwieracz: CL-USER> (ql:bundle-systems '("pm") :to "test/") 2015-07-22T11:48:29Z otwieracz: ; Evaluation aborted on #<QL-BUNDLE:SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND {100631DC03}>. 2015-07-22T11:48:31Z otwieracz: why? 2015-07-22T11:48:54Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-22T11:48:57Z XachX: otwieracz: bundling works only for quicklisp-provided systems 2015-07-22T11:49:04Z otwieracz: :( 2015-07-22T11:49:18Z otwieracz: That's very sad. 2015-07-22T11:49:20Z XachX: otwieracz: the bundle creates a local-projects/ directory. you can put local systems there. 2015-07-22T11:50:13Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-07-22T11:51:11Z otwieracz: Hmm. 2015-07-22T11:51:42Z troydm: Symbol "REGISTER-CAL-PROJECTS" not found in the QUICKLISP-CLIENT package 2015-07-22T11:51:48Z troydm: any ideas? 2015-07-22T11:51:51Z otwieracz: OK, so I will create new bundle, keep my local project in it. 2015-07-22T11:51:57Z troydm: I'm trying to install ceramic on OS X 2015-07-22T11:52:05Z otwieracz: And add dependencies not only to asd file, but regenerate bundle too. 2015-07-22T11:52:11Z otwieracz: XachX, am I right? 2015-07-22T11:52:25Z troydm: running (ql:register-local-projects) gives me this error 2015-07-22T11:53:03Z XachX: otwieracz: I don't understand, sorry. 2015-07-22T11:53:36Z XachX: troydm: It looks as though you have typed it without a "lo"? 2015-07-22T11:55:28Z otwieracz: XachX: OK, nevermind :) 2015-07-22T11:56:56Z troydm: XachX: but I did type it correctly, that's the strange thing 2015-07-22T11:59:08Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:00:40Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-22T12:01:27Z therik quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T12:04:54Z lambda-smith: Hm... which one should I use to access/set array element: elt or aref? 2015-07-22T12:05:17Z troydm: XachX: nvm I've found issue, but now I still have another one 2015-07-22T12:05:35Z XachX: lambda-smith: aref 2015-07-22T12:05:41Z XachX: troydm: what's up? 2015-07-22T12:05:54Z XachX: troydm: and what was the issue? something eating letters from a file? 2015-07-22T12:06:22Z lambda-smith: Thanks XachX! 2015-07-22T12:06:55Z hao joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:09:39Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-22T12:13:37Z troydm: XachX: http://pastebin.com/RuRuqFah 2015-07-22T12:13:39Z c74d quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T12:14:08Z troydm: XachX: I'm trying to configure linedit on os x but terminfo file is not compiling, and I'm not sure why 2015-07-22T12:14:44Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:15:22Z troydm: XachX: the issue was I was trying to run that command from cim's replq 2015-07-22T12:15:28Z troydm: *repl 2015-07-22T12:16:19Z troydm: XachX: after adding quicklisp initialisation from cim to .sbclrc file now everything seems to work 2015-07-22T12:16:40Z troydm: but this terminfo is still strange 2015-07-22T12:18:06Z troydm: this seems to be the cause http://pastebin.com/Zn6XXxP9 2015-07-22T12:19:33Z wukawuka joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:20:48Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T12:25:56Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:26:10Z lambda-smith learns about row-major-aref 2015-07-22T12:26:38Z lambda-smith: Oh Common Lisp, you never cease to amaze me 2015-07-22T12:26:50Z lambda-smith: What have I been doing with nested vectors this whole time? 2015-07-22T12:27:21Z therik joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:27:52Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-22T12:29:20Z hao quit (Quit: 离开) 2015-07-22T12:29:42Z XachX: troydm: there's a bug that will be fixed in the next release :( 2015-07-22T12:29:43Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:29:58Z XachX: troydm: you can get terminfo from git in the meantime to fix it. next ql release is in a few weeks. 2015-07-22T12:30:21Z troydm: XachX: ic 2015-07-22T12:30:24Z troydm: XachX: thx 2015-07-22T12:32:08Z troydm: XachX: version from git works fine 2015-07-22T12:32:20Z XachX: mycket bra 2015-07-22T12:32:37Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:33:13Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:36:20Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:41:26Z cosmicex` joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:41:31Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T12:42:30Z cosmicexplorer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-22T12:42:59Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T12:44:14Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-22T12:48:02Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:48:07Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-22T12:54:39Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Weird in coding now, or make love, only two things push me away from IRC.) 2015-07-22T12:59:25Z wukawuka quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-22T12:59:38Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T13:00:51Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:02:13Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T13:04:44Z mobius-eng quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T13:04:51Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:07:24Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:10:21Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:10:46Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-22T13:11:17Z hao joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:12:16Z hao: now which implementation could use mcClim on windows 2015-07-22T13:12:50Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-22T13:16:40Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:18:15Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:20:27Z hao left #lisp 2015-07-22T13:22:44Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:26:33Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:26:48Z TOAA quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T13:27:02Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:27:41Z TOAA joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:27:47Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:28:02Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T13:29:22Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-22T13:31:59Z pocket quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T13:37:18Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-22T13:40:52Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T13:40:58Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-22T13:41:02Z yenda- joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:41:13Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:42:48Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:48:00Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T13:48:48Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:52:03Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T13:52:22Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:54:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T13:55:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:56:37Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-22T13:56:55Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T13:58:14Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:02:29Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:04:49Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:05:22Z oleo: hello :) 2015-07-22T14:15:06Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T14:15:51Z vossi joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:15:52Z Vityok: hi! 2015-07-22T14:17:15Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T14:18:26Z jebes: hey 2015-07-22T14:18:36Z superancetre joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:18:49Z superancetre quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-22T14:21:24Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T14:27:32Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:27:45Z therik: hey, what's the latest replacement for elephant? Elephant seems to be old now 2015-07-22T14:28:08Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:30:48Z jebes: don't use CLOS and roll your own :) 2015-07-22T14:31:37Z shlomo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:31:48Z eudoxia: use an SQL ORM like Crane or Integral 2015-07-22T14:33:03Z reb``: therik: What's wrong with old? 2015-07-22T14:33:51Z stupidpioneers joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:34:04Z cosmicex` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T14:34:07Z superancetre joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:34:16Z cosmicex` joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:34:18Z therik: reb``, old is ok, but unmaintained old scares me a bit 2015-07-22T14:34:29Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:34:36Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T14:35:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T14:36:35Z tokenrove: what about rucksack? 2015-07-22T14:37:03Z superancetre quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-22T14:37:08Z dlowe: rucksack is the predecessor to elephant. It's doubly unmaintained 2015-07-22T14:37:08Z Petit_Dejeuenr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-22T14:38:13Z dim: is there a generic way to copy a CLOS object? 2015-07-22T14:39:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:39:00Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-22T14:39:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:39:11Z dlowe: No. 2015-07-22T14:39:42Z dim: ok 2015-07-22T14:39:47Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T14:40:17Z tokenrove: I didn't realize elephant descended from rucksack; I thought they were contemporary. The other one I'd used in the past was manardb. I'm sure there are newer options now. 2015-07-22T14:41:08Z reb``: therik: You should not fear old software nor unmaintained software. Try it out and fix whatever bugs you find. 2015-07-22T14:42:26Z fe[nl]ix: dim: it's possible to autogenerate a copy method using MOP 2015-07-22T14:42:33Z dim: mm but there's copy-* for structs, right? 2015-07-22T14:42:51Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:42:56Z dlowe: yeah, because it's generated as part of the struct definition 2015-07-22T14:43:10Z dlowe: even then, it's a shallow copy, so it probably doesn't do what you want 2015-07-22T14:43:14Z dim: actually my object here is a struct 2015-07-22T14:43:16Z reb``: dim: The idea of a generic copy function is flawed. It's just like equality ... you can't make everyone happy. 2015-07-22T14:43:16Z dlowe: unless you have a trivial struct 2015-07-22T14:43:27Z dim: trivial: slots are integer and strings 2015-07-22T14:43:31Z dim: is that trivial enough? 2015-07-22T14:43:38Z dlowe: No, strings will be shared. 2015-07-22T14:43:48Z dlowe: so modifying one string will modify the shared copy 2015-07-22T14:43:59Z dlowe: unless you treat strings as immutable in all your code 2015-07-22T14:44:12Z dlowe: which I kind of do, but I'm not comfortable depending on it 2015-07-22T14:44:20Z dim: thanks 2015-07-22T14:45:52Z Guthur: would be an interesting code base indeed that does gratitious mutation of things like strings 2015-07-22T14:46:22Z dim: prin1 will allocate a new string... is there another way? eaiser? 2015-07-22T14:49:37Z Guthur: dim: copy-seq 2015-07-22T14:49:41Z pjb: lambda-smith: elt is for sequences. (deftype sequence () `(or list vector)) aref is for array. vector is a subclass of array; vector is a subclass of sequence. CL has multiple inheritance. array and sequence are not related by the subclass (or subtype) relationship. 2015-07-22T14:50:15Z pjb: therik: aren't you able to find and correct a bug? 2015-07-22T14:50:27Z pjb: therik: why should you be afraid of unmaintained code? 2015-07-22T14:50:40Z pjb: therik: "open source" code. 2015-07-22T14:51:23Z pjb: dim: check https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/document/8/index.html 2015-07-22T14:51:47Z pjb: dim: it's trivial to write a generic copy-object function using the MOP. it's not trivial to find a usefulness to it. 2015-07-22T14:51:57Z pjb: "generic" being the key word. 2015-07-22T14:52:04Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:52:56Z pjb: dim: even with (or integer string) slots, you lose. 2015-07-22T14:53:24Z pjb: dim: (setf (aref (slot-value o 's) 0) (char-upcase (aref (slot-value o 's) 0))) ; blam! 2015-07-22T14:54:21Z pjb: PRIN1 doesn't allocate anything. Why should it? 2015-07-22T14:56:19Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:56:35Z lambda-smith: pjb: Thank you for the clarification 2015-07-22T14:56:45Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-22T14:57:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T14:59:48Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T15:00:10Z Shinmera quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-22T15:00:39Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-22T15:04:13Z cosmicex` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.10)) 2015-07-22T15:04:16Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:04:25Z cosmicexplorer joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:06:08Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T15:06:18Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:08:17Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-22T15:09:26Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-22T15:10:40Z dim: pjb: yeah I did something quite specific with copy-seq (thanks Guthur) 2015-07-22T15:11:53Z ceryo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:12:41Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T15:13:59Z ceryo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T15:14:08Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:17:12Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T15:17:12Z Colleen_ is now known as Colleen 2015-07-22T15:18:36Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T15:20:55Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:22:19Z Carisius joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:22:25Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T15:22:43Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:22:45Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:22:48Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:23:49Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:24:07Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:24:53Z synergy joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:26:26Z dim: seems like force-output doesn't forcibly force output 2015-07-22T15:26:37Z dim: at least tail -f in parallel to outputing the file does nothing 2015-07-22T15:26:45Z dim: s/does/shows/ 2015-07-22T15:26:57Z opusp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T15:27:54Z fe[nl]ix: clhs force-output 2015-07-22T15:27:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 2015-07-22T15:28:25Z fe[nl]ix: dim: see ^ 2015-07-22T15:28:36Z fe[nl]ix: force-output is allowed to do nothing 2015-07-22T15:28:44Z fe[nl]ix: the one you seek is finish-output 2015-07-22T15:29:21Z fe[nl]ix: that spec seems written with the idea that the I/O is done in a background thread 2015-07-22T15:30:02Z fe[nl]ix: and that force-output sends a flush command and returns immediately, whereas finish-output blocks until it's done 2015-07-22T15:30:18Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T15:30:19Z dim: ah yeah 2015-07-22T15:30:27Z dim: I read that and used the wrong one 2015-07-22T15:30:29Z dim: thanks 2015-07-22T15:30:35Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-07-22T15:32:29Z pjb: dim: you'd use force-output when writing a file in batch processing. You'd use finish-output before an interactive read. 2015-07-22T15:32:37Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T15:35:11Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:36:49Z opusp joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:38:07Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T15:38:29Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:38:31Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:38:50Z dim: here it's batch processing and I want "checkpoints" where the file content should be visible from the outside world already 2015-07-22T15:39:05Z dim: so I used force-output 2015-07-22T15:39:22Z dim: but anyway I've been lazy: (format t "..." ...) and ./command > output 2015-07-22T15:39:30Z dim: so too many reasons for my attempt not to work 2015-07-22T15:42:54Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:43:30Z jebes: it it much of a problem that cl doesn't use leap seconds? 2015-07-22T15:43:37Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:45:11Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T15:45:18Z Carisius quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T15:45:47Z finnrobi joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:45:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-22T15:46:27Z finnrobi_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T15:47:42Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Maybe more akin to Go's interfaces? 2015-07-22T16:33:59Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-22T16:35:09Z nyef: jebes: Would the article titled "CLOStrophobia: its etiology and treatment" by Henry Baker count? 2015-07-22T16:37:46Z jebes: reading now 2015-07-22T16:39:20Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-22T16:40:03Z jebes: a quick skim seems to be not quite what I'm looking for but it does provide an interesting system 2015-07-22T16:40:49Z jebes: there certainly is a dichotomy between developed code and prototyping code, a bridge I would cerainly like to be crossable... 2015-07-22T16:41:42Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-22T16:42:01Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T16:44:47Z ceryo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T16:45:56Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T16:46:52Z spew joined #lisp 2015-07-22T16:47:24Z jackdaniel: any link to this? 2015-07-22T16:47:43Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T16:48:29Z jebes: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=0BC9AC363A4D525E21790AB4D4CF981C?doi=10.1.1.39.4040&rep=rep1&type=pdf 2015-07-22T16:48:59Z jackdaniel: jebes: thanks 2015-07-22T16:49:26Z nyef: Or http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CLOStrophobia.html 2015-07-22T16:50:12Z jebes: that's a much better link 2015-07-22T16:51:24Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T16:51:46Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-22T16:52:16Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-22T16:52:25Z wukawuka quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-22T16:52:48Z Petit_Dejeuenr joined #lisp 2015-07-22T16:53:08Z Petit_Dejeuenr is now known as Petit_Dejeuner 2015-07-22T16:53:28Z Kenjin quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-22T16:55:08Z opusp quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-22T16:56:03Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T16:56:05Z xificurC_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T16:57:06Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T16:57:25Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:00:43Z jlarocco_work joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:02:12Z opusp joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:04:28Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:05:55Z hlavaty: jebes: what about closures 2015-07-22T17:06:34Z synergy: is it ok to advertise a reddit post here on a question I have relating to lisp? 2015-07-22T17:06:42Z pjb: I don't do reddit. 2015-07-22T17:06:50Z jebes: hlavaty: that's my current solution :). I use a lot of the code from Let Over Lambda to extend and work with them and I quite enjoy it, but multiple dispatch is quite hairy 2015-07-22T17:07:13Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:07:21Z synergy: pjb: What's the issue? 2015-07-22T17:07:37Z pjb: Limit yourself to 2 or 3 arguments to dispatch on. With 2 arguments, it's easy to draw a table. With 3, you'd have to draw a cube in 3D. 2015-07-22T17:07:52Z jebes: I don't do reddit much anymore. I'm in the voat boat 2015-07-22T17:07:55Z pjb: synergy: they rewrote them in a lesser language from the lisp original. 2015-07-22T17:08:26Z synergy: pjb: Python? 2015-07-22T17:08:40Z pjb: Something, I don't know. 2015-07-22T17:08:46Z jebes: you must have been pissed when Yahoo rewrote viaweb, pjb 2015-07-22T17:09:15Z synergy: pjb: That dissuaded you from the site? I mean, they most likely had a valid reason to do so. 2015-07-22T17:09:17Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:09:51Z jackdaniel: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rewritingreddit 2015-07-22T17:10:18Z pjb: jebes: yes. That's why I don't use yahoo anymore either :-) 2015-07-22T17:10:51Z clique: and google? 2015-07-22T17:11:05Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:11:08Z pjb: Anyways, what need do they fill? That of usenet? news is a much better UX. 2015-07-22T17:11:12Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:11:23Z pjb: google doesn't rewrite itasoftware. They're smarter. 2015-07-22T17:12:01Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:13:32Z jebes: clisp needs a lot of really brutal love... :-3 2015-07-22T17:14:03Z jackdaniel: and work with them and I quite enjoy it, but multiple dispatch is quite hairy 2015-07-22T17:14:06Z jackdaniel: and work with them and I quite enjoy it, but multiple dispatch is quite hairy 2015-07-22T17:14:14Z jackdaniel: sorry, terminal + touchpad madness 2015-07-22T17:15:12Z jebes: not as bad as accidentally dumping your emacs screen into irc :/ 2015-07-22T17:16:00Z jackdaniel: true 2015-07-22T17:16:15Z pjb: When you're editing your bank accounts file with all your pins and secret keys :-) 2015-07-22T17:20:55Z goglosh: that's exactly why I disable my trackpad 2015-07-22T17:21:47Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T17:22:32Z stevegt__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T17:24:24Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T17:24:51Z spew quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-22T17:25:24Z goglosh: anyone here used cepl? 2015-07-22T17:26:26Z pjb: Here, perhaps not, but in #lispgames, perhaps yes? 2015-07-22T17:26:53Z goglosh: good idea 2015-07-22T17:26:53Z pjb: cepl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z4GfOUWEuA&list=PL2VAYZE_4wRKKr5pJzfYD1w4tKCXARs5y 2015-07-22T17:32:08Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:37:00Z opusp quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-22T17:37:47Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T17:38:15Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:38:40Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:44:16Z wukawuka joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:47:26Z opusp joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:47:39Z eazar_salesman joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:48:30Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T17:48:51Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T17:49:31Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:50:51Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:51:07Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:52:09Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-07-22T17:52:37Z opusp quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T17:57:20Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-22T17:58:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:00:29Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T18:00:52Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:01:43Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:02:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T18:03:30Z goglosh: is it me or interest in lisp has grown? 2015-07-22T18:03:38Z goglosh: being clojure a consequence 2015-07-22T18:03:51Z schoppenhauer quit (Quit: Adé) 2015-07-22T18:04:11Z jebes: shame to, clojure is a veryt 2015-07-22T18:04:14Z jebes: very bad lisp* 2015-07-22T18:04:14Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:04:18Z opusp joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:04:29Z huserl joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:04:52Z goglosh: haven't used it but since it's java stuff 2015-07-22T18:04:56Z goglosh: there's also hy 2015-07-22T18:05:13Z mobius-eng quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T18:06:47Z squiddo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:07:13Z jebes: and LFE 2015-07-22T18:09:37Z clique: LFE? 2015-07-22T18:10:13Z H4ns quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T18:10:35Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-22T18:10:39Z jebes: lisp flavored erlang 2015-07-22T18:10:51Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:11:14Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T18:11:34Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:12:55Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T18:14:02Z p_l: mostly a lispy syntax over erlag 2015-07-22T18:14:21Z jebes: exactly what it is 2015-07-22T18:17:43Z wukawuka quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-22T18:18:26Z vossi quit (Quit: vossi) 2015-07-22T18:19:58Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:25:26Z p_l: http://malisper.me/2015/07/22/debugging-lisp-part-3-redefining-classes/ <- damn, that was one thing I was missing from Erlang/OTP 2015-07-22T18:26:28Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T18:27:49Z clique: OTP? 2015-07-22T18:29:16Z wat quit (Quit: a) 2015-07-22T18:30:42Z p_l: the other 80% of erlang 2015-07-22T18:31:10Z fredokun joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:31:13Z p_l: the OS of Erlang applications 2015-07-22T18:31:19Z clique: good to know 2015-07-22T18:31:30Z Shinmera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRbY3TMUcgQ 2015-07-22T18:31:51Z Shinmera: A must see for whenever Erlang is mentioned. 2015-07-22T18:33:15Z p_l: clique: you can implement "Erlang" very fast easily. It happens however, that nearly every important feature of Erlang involves OTP 2015-07-22T18:34:42Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:35:43Z gendl__ quit (Quit: gendl__) 2015-07-22T18:38:04Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:38:44Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:40:03Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T18:41:39Z wat joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:42:00Z fredokun quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2015-07-22T18:43:01Z wat quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-22T18:43:54Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:44:26Z sdemarre left #lisp 2015-07-22T18:45:47Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T18:46:21Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:47:09Z H4ns joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:47:25Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:47:35Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T18:49:09Z Cthulhux` quit (Changing host) 2015-07-22T18:49:09Z Cthulhux` joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:50:43Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:55:56Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-22T18:57:45Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:00:47Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:01:27Z copycat joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:03:21Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:05:30Z squiddo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:05:38Z copycat left #lisp 2015-07-22T19:10:32Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:10:59Z shlomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-22T19:11:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:11:20Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2015-07-22T19:11:32Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:14:06Z clique quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:19:26Z Blood-Wiper joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:19:59Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:20:50Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:21:11Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2015-07-22T19:23:11Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T19:23:39Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:23:48Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:26:52Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:30:28Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:31:11Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T19:31:38Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:32:21Z loz1: how does lisp understand when to eval list, and when to eval every element of the list? 2015-07-22T19:32:38Z gendl__ quit (Quit: gendl__) 2015-07-22T19:33:28Z loz1: are all many-forms lists appear inside progn? 2015-07-22T19:34:43Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:38:40Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-22T19:41:34Z ronh quit 2015-07-22T19:43:23Z therik quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:47:21Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T19:48:00Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T19:48:19Z qubitner1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:48:24Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:50:38Z yenda- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:51:03Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:51:06Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:52:06Z fortitude quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:53:16Z mc40 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T19:53:53Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:55:41Z Blood-Wiper left #lisp 2015-07-22T19:56:06Z eazar_salesman quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-22T19:56:21Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:56:24Z therik joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:56:38Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-07-22T19:59:21Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T19:59:22Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:00:18Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:01:17Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T20:03:19Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:03:20Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T20:05:59Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:09:39Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:09:51Z p_l: loz1: there are two modes of reading/evaluation - unquoted forms are just expanded (DFS way) by using the first element as "function" to execute 2015-07-22T20:09:58Z p_l: the other just makes object (lisp) out of it 2015-07-22T20:10:00Z p_l: *list 2015-07-22T20:10:48Z p_l: loz1: however, with a macro, you could get a result where different behaviour is the norm 2015-07-22T20:11:37Z dmiles_afk quit 2015-07-22T20:13:11Z badkins quit 2015-07-22T20:13:38Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T20:13:52Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:15:34Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:16:22Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:16:37Z pgomes` joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:16:39Z pgomes` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T20:17:08Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:18:14Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:20:01Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T20:21:11Z stevegt__ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:22:21Z paddymahoney quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T20:22:24Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:23:58Z opusp is now known as HDurer 2015-07-22T20:24:03Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T20:24:10Z HDurer quit (Changing host) 2015-07-22T20:24:10Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:24:13Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:24:53Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T20:25:45Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:27:47Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T20:31:13Z dmiles_afk quit 2015-07-22T20:33:36Z vrrm joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:35:35Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:44:35Z rapier_saber joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:45:19Z pgomes` joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:45:33Z rapier_saber: How is Lisp better than C? What, because it's high-level? 2015-07-22T20:45:42Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T20:45:51Z rapier_saber: My optimized C is faster than anything I've written in Lisp. 2015-07-22T20:45:58Z Shinmera: Good for you. 2015-07-22T20:46:11Z H4ns: if fast is your only criterion, then c is better than lisp 2015-07-22T20:46:21Z rapier_saber: Yeah, for sure. 2015-07-22T20:46:31Z Shinmera: Or possibly Fortran. 2015-07-22T20:46:59Z rapier_saber: Speed is everything, after all. I don't want slow code. 2015-07-22T20:47:13Z H4ns: rapier_saber: then please move on, nothing to see here. 2015-07-22T20:47:19Z loz1: people care about slow programs 2015-07-22T20:47:26Z loz1: nobody cares how fast is your code 2015-07-22T20:47:32Z Shinmera: I do care. 2015-07-22T20:47:39Z loz1: Shinmera: about the code?) 2015-07-22T20:50:47Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-22T20:51:05Z rapier_saber: I was serious about my question: How is Lisp better than C? 2015-07-22T20:51:21Z Shinmera: "better" depends on your goals. 2015-07-22T20:51:27Z Shinmera: As your question is, it is inflammatory at best. 2015-07-22T20:51:45Z loz1: C is simply shorter to write in chats 2015-07-22T20:52:03Z loz1: approx. 4 times shorter 2015-07-22T20:55:15Z rapier_saber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T20:57:24Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T20:58:04Z gernika: I think he means to ask, how is Lisp better than Algol? 2015-07-22T20:59:01Z Shinmera: He did not. 2015-07-22T20:59:01Z dlowe: It doesn't have a text preprocessor for macros. 2015-07-22T20:59:17Z dlowe: That is indisputably superior. 2015-07-22T21:01:51Z gernika: Just not sure what he means by lisp. Common-lisp? Scheme? Lisp 1? 2015-07-22T21:02:14Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:02:35Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T21:02:37Z gernika: As different as C and Java if not more 2015-07-22T21:02:54Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:02:55Z Shinmera: Lisp means CL unless stated otherwise. 2015-07-22T21:03:17Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T21:03:44Z gernika: ah got it 2015-07-22T21:03:50Z pgomes` left #lisp 2015-07-22T21:03:53Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:04:52Z duggiefresh quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-22T21:06:35Z ceryo quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-22T21:06:47Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:07:56Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T21:08:12Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-22T21:09:34Z digiorgi: when i know that foo is bounded => (boundp 'foo) how can i get that value? 2015-07-22T21:10:03Z Shinmera: Just foo ? 2015-07-22T21:10:16Z pgomes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T21:10:25Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:10:26Z digiorgi: but if not defined you get a compiler warning 2015-07-22T21:10:50Z Shinmera: boundp will only tell you about special bindings. 2015-07-22T21:10:59Z Shinmera: *dynamic bindings 2015-07-22T21:11:21Z ceryo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T21:11:40Z digiorgi: i am doing something like (let ((*language* :some-lang)) ...) 2015-07-22T21:12:08Z Shinmera: If the compiler complains about it not being defined then you have not defined it to be special. 2015-07-22T21:12:36Z White__Flame: (symbol-value var-which-holds-a-symbol)? 2015-07-22T21:13:03Z White__Flame: but inside your LET scope, it's just *language* 2015-07-22T21:14:10Z p_l: Shinmera: I wish I had the quantum computation presentation on hand for that kind of questions 2015-07-22T21:15:25Z Shinmera: p_l: I'm not sure I follow 2015-07-22T21:15:57Z p_l: Shinmera: it had example of optimization that is very hard to do in C 2015-07-22T21:16:11Z Shinmera: p_l: Ah. Well, Fortran can also beat C for some things. 2015-07-22T21:16:25Z White__Flame: digiorgi: there is no value representation for "unbound value" in Lisp, so there's no way to read a value without raising an exception. Check with boundp, and use the variable name as normal after you've established it's bound. 2015-07-22T21:17:17Z p_l: Shinmera: in it there were a) very very fast numeric code in fortran/assembly coupled with b) dynamic optimization thanks to lisp including compiler in the image 2015-07-22T21:17:18Z White__Flame: ...read a potentially unbound value... 2015-07-22T21:17:28Z ktt9 joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:17:35Z ktt9: hello, lispers! 2015-07-22T21:17:41Z White__Flame: hi\ 2015-07-22T21:18:09Z Shinmera: p_l: Hmm. Sounds like an adventure to maintain that 2015-07-22T21:18:40Z p_l: Shinmera: CL meant there wasn't much :D 2015-07-22T21:18:51Z digiorgi: White__Flame: a let with a (declare (special )) and a combination of boundp and symbol-value works (: 2015-07-22T21:18:56Z Shinmera: p_l: The numeric Fortran/Assembly code I mean 2015-07-22T21:18:56Z digiorgi: thanks 2015-07-22T21:19:01Z ktt9: how do I create cl-launch script, that loads quicklisp system? 2015-07-22T21:19:07Z p_l: Shinmera: it used plain CL functionality to compile custom loops, the fortran code was standardized (BLAS) 2015-07-22T21:19:17Z Shinmera: Ah 2015-07-22T21:19:21Z White__Flame: digiorgi: usually you'll have a (defvar *language*) at the toplevel instead of just declaring special, in that usage scenario 2015-07-22T21:19:49Z White__Flame: because in every scoped used fo that variable, you'd have to manually declare it special 2015-07-22T21:20:08Z White__Flame: defvar/defparameter/etc do that for you, and is the clear & canonical way 2015-07-22T21:20:43Z digiorgi: White__Flame: but i use this to get a multithreaded code working with dynamic binding 2015-07-22T21:20:54Z White__Flame: special variables are automatically thread-local 2015-07-22T21:21:24Z White__Flame: so a global (defvar *language* nil), with a per-thread (let ((*language* :foo) ...thread contents...) will establish a local per-thread binding for the variable 2015-07-22T21:21:36Z gendl__ quit (Quit: gendl__) 2015-07-22T21:21:44Z White__Flame: (likely remove the word "local" from that sentence for best clarity) 2015-07-22T21:22:32Z digiorgi: defvar and defparameter are thread local?? 2015-07-22T21:22:42Z Shinmera: No. 2015-07-22T21:22:44Z White__Flame: no, they define a special variable 2015-07-22T21:22:53Z White__Flame: when you locally bind a special variable, that binding is also thread-local 2015-07-22T21:23:01Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:23:45Z White__Flame: and you can setf that local binding, or setf the global value of the symbol if you're not within such a binding scope 2015-07-22T21:24:40Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-22T21:25:31Z digiorgi: i mean... defvar and defparameter define an special variable... and every special variable is thread local 2015-07-22T21:25:34Z digiorgi: is that true? 2015-07-22T21:25:37Z White__Flame: no 2015-07-22T21:25:38Z Shinmera: No. 2015-07-22T21:25:44Z White__Flame: a special variable starts off having a global binding 2015-07-22T21:25:46Z Shinmera: Special variables are global. Special bindings are local. 2015-07-22T21:25:50Z White__Flame: you setf the variable, all threads see that variable 2015-07-22T21:25:56Z White__Flame: ...all threads see that new value 2015-07-22T21:26:47Z White__Flame: and as Shinmera said, if you have a local binding (such as (let ((*var* ..)) or even (defun foo (*var*) ...)), that binding is thread-local 2015-07-22T21:27:01Z White__Flame: the thread-local binding is also a new "place" that can be assigned to independent of the global value 2015-07-22T21:28:25Z White__Flame: this whole concept derives from the CLHS's description of bindings, that they're only visible within the execution scope of the binding. Other threads are outside of that scope. 2015-07-22T21:29:30Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-22T21:30:16Z digiorgi: thanks (: i got it 2015-07-22T21:33:57Z White__Flame: cool 2015-07-22T21:36:39Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:36:56Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-22T21:38:27Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:39:11Z PuercoPop: ktt9: just use the -Q flag followed by the system name 2015-07-22T21:39:34Z White__Flame is now known as White_Flame 2015-07-22T21:48:52Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:48:57Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-22T21:49:08Z stevegt__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-22T21:49:14Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-22T21:50:42Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:51:41Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:51:51Z ronh quit 2015-07-22T21:53:31Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T21:55:17Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T21:56:54Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:56:54Z gendl__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-22T21:57:20Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:57:25Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-22T21:58:17Z therik quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T21:58:21Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-22T22:03:16Z stevegt__ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:03:36Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-22T22:06:17Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-22T22:07:25Z ktt9: PuercoPop: thanks! 2015-07-22T22:08:33Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-22T22:08:34Z loz1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-22T22:13:26Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-07-22T22:13:36Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:14:30Z ehu1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-22T22:16:32Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:17:39Z zophy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T22:17:48Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-22T22:21:12Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:22:29Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-22T22:24:27Z akkad thought there was a length function in clhs 2015-07-22T22:24:28Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-22T22:24:41Z Shinmera: clhs length 2015-07-22T22:24:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_length.htm 2015-07-22T22:26:21Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:26:22Z akkad: glad clhs is not on SF :P 2015-07-22T22:27:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T22:28:22Z vrrm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-22T22:28:25Z smandy joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:28:59Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-22T22:36:13Z smandy: Hi all I'm looking at doc for mapcar in cl. The docs specify #' is required for anon functions - i.e. (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (* x x )) '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) but looks like I can get away with just (mapcar (lambda (x) (* x x )) '(1 2 3 4 5 6)). Is the #' redundant? 2015-07-22T22:37:37Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T22:38:36Z White_Flame quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T22:41:23Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:41:28Z jebes: iirc: lambda is a macro that expands to #'(lambda ...) 2015-07-22T22:41:45Z jebes: so yes insofar as it is added by the lambda form anyways 2015-07-22T22:41:49Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:42:10Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:43:36Z White_Flame: also, #' is a reader macro that expands to (function ...) 2015-07-22T22:43:39Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-22T22:44:06Z White_Flame: so (lambda ...) -> #'(lambda ...) === (function (lambda ...)) which is the most canonical form 2015-07-22T22:44:07Z yrdz` is now known as yrdz 2015-07-22T22:44:45Z yrdz quit (Changing host) 2015-07-22T22:44:46Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:44:52Z nyef: "Most canonical", also the point where it's no longer a "lambda form", but a "lambda expression". 2015-07-22T22:46:44Z smandy: nyef: White_Flame: jebes: thanks - have a bit of reading to do! but knowing lambda is a macro and a symbol (one referring to the other) clears up the ambiguity. 2015-07-22T22:46:45Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T22:47:44Z mc40 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T22:47:49Z nyef: I'll also point out that a "lambda expression" is not a "function name", but is permitted in place of a "function name" in at least two places in the spec. 2015-07-22T22:47:58Z White_Flame: it really doesn't affect that much in actual use, but does help flesh out what the lisp implementation itself is doing 2015-07-22T22:48:07Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T22:48:20Z White_Flame: the biggest gotcha I've seen is where you do (car expression) and end up with 'FUNCTION instead of the expected 'LAMBDA 2015-07-22T22:48:23Z mlrutherford quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T22:48:30Z White_Flame: and that's a very rare thing to do 2015-07-22T22:49:03Z White_Flame: clhs function 2015-07-22T22:49:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 2015-07-22T22:49:18Z White_Flame: (the special operator one) 2015-07-22T22:50:45Z smandy: White_Flame: thx! 2015-07-22T22:53:23Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T22:53:47Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:56:05Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-22T22:56:32Z smandy: White_Flame: ahhhh... I've just realised the correspondence between #'foo and (function foo). Could I paraphrase it as 'look up foo in the function namespace'? 2015-07-22T22:56:52Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T22:57:22Z jebes: yes, which just looks up the value in the symbol's plist 2015-07-22T22:58:25Z smandy: jebes: ug - symbols have plists? (bear with me - newb!) 2015-07-22T22:58:27Z nyef: Umm... No? 2015-07-22T22:58:41Z nyef: The function cell is not necessarily on the plist. 2015-07-22T22:58:57Z nyef: And there are lexical function bindings, as introduced by FLET and LABELS. 2015-07-22T22:59:03Z jebes: Oh yeah... 2015-07-22T22:59:08Z jebes: sorry about that 2015-07-22T22:59:13Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T22:59:17Z nyef: Stick with "look up foo in the function namespace". 2015-07-22T22:59:30Z smandy: nyef: willdo :-) 2015-07-22T23:00:41Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:01:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:04:45Z smandy: thanks all for help1 2015-07-22T23:04:46Z smandy: ! 2015-07-22T23:05:43Z mrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:07:44Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:08:28Z kokonut joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:09:02Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:17:26Z govt joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:19:15Z govt: lisp gurus, bestow upon me: why is it that almost every GUI library out there has been abandoned, and if I wanted to make something like a simple text editor or something like that, what library could I use to mockup an interface? And I need to run on Linux mostly 2015-07-22T23:19:24Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T23:19:38Z PuercoPop: Does anyone know why Eclipse's CLOS interface to CLX is not more widely used? 2015-07-22T23:20:43Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-22T23:22:01Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T23:22:23Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T23:22:31Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:23:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T23:24:07Z smandy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T23:24:40Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2015-07-22T23:24:54Z jebes: govt: what language has good GUI libraries outside of C/C++/Java 2015-07-22T23:25:19Z govt: Plenty of languages have kinda decent bindings to GTK 2015-07-22T23:25:37Z govt: if you like Tcl, Tk is kinda good for small stuff 2015-07-22T23:25:38Z mrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-22T23:25:54Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-22T23:26:01Z govt: I found http://ceramic.github.io/ this morning, and it looks pretty neat. Using Electron to generate native code from web app mockups 2015-07-22T23:29:46Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-22T23:30:19Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-22T23:30:35Z White_Flame quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2015-07-22T23:31:01Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:34:51Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T23:36:08Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:36:10Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T23:38:04Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-22T23:38:04Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2015-07-22T23:42:49Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:46:13Z stevegt__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-22T23:50:07Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:50:07Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T23:52:42Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-22T23:55:55Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:56:48Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-22T23:59:20Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-23T00:03:42Z mrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:04:21Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:07:36Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T00:09:15Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-23T00:09:57Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:11:32Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:12:12Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2015-07-23T00:14:10Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T00:15:03Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:18:36Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:19:04Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:23:10Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:24:59Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:25:00Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T00:26:48Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2015-07-23T00:26:52Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:27:54Z eazar001 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T00:29:25Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:32:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T00:33:22Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:38:14Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:40:52Z k_dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:41:12Z k-dawg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T00:43:59Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-23T00:45:26Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T00:46:15Z harish_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T00:47:46Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:50:37Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:51:11Z syrinx joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:52:41Z XachX: PuercoPop: where is it? 2015-07-23T00:53:05Z kokonut quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T00:53:51Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T00:54:35Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:56:27Z PuercoPop: XachX: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/eclipse/eclipse/blob/master/lib/clx-ext/event.lisp 2015-07-23T00:59:13Z danielglh joined #lisp 2015-07-23T00:59:40Z PuercoPop: The only not straight forward thing is that it pre-allocates instances of each event and mutate them accordingly so that it puts less strain on the GC. But other than that it looks well written. 2015-07-23T01:00:46Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T01:02:16Z PuercoPop: and for example of its usage https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/eclipse/eclipse/blob/master/input.lisp 2015-07-23T01:05:54Z mrutherford: does anybody know if StumpWM is still active? Seems like an amazing project. 2015-07-23T01:05:59Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-23T01:06:49Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-23T01:07:22Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-23T01:09:41Z PuercoPop: mrutherford: it is, its development has resumed, check the gh project 2015-07-23T01:17:12Z k_dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-23T01:19:00Z mrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T01:21:18Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-23T01:24:50Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-23T01:29:03Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-23T01:29:20Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T01:32:36Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-23T01:36:26Z Tinapaple joined #lisp 2015-07-23T01:38:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-23T01:45:06Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-07-23T01:45:58Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-23T01:48:11Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-23T01:48:37Z lisper29 left #lisp 2015-07-23T01:49:29Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-23T01:53:57Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:04:17Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T02:06:04Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:06:57Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:08:56Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-23T02:10:59Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:12:51Z nairobi_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:13:35Z nairobi_: How are you doing folks? 2015-07-23T02:13:44Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:13:56Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:21:15Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:24:09Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:24:09Z ceryo quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-23T02:34:55Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:41:10Z nairobi_: WHy are you all so quiet? 2015-07-23T02:41:22Z nairobi_: iS LISP DEAD? 2015-07-23T02:42:28Z govt: far from it 2015-07-23T02:42:35Z govt: but everyone sleeps 2015-07-23T02:43:00Z govt: and this is not meant to be a social channel, problems/questions arise and are resolved 2015-07-23T02:44:00Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T02:45:47Z goglosh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T02:46:02Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:46:29Z Zhivago: nairobi: Lisp does not qualify as alive. 2015-07-23T02:47:46Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T02:51:21Z nairobi_: I was wondering if you can help solve a proble or advise on the right technologies. 2015-07-23T02:51:24Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-23T02:52:02Z nairobi_ govt (government== obamo == abbot == nsa) shouldn't be here! 2015-07-23T02:53:18Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:53:26Z nairobi_: Ok. A team wanted to create a service that would make it easy for academic institutions that are not subcribed to the jstor papers to have access to the papers. 2015-07-23T02:54:33Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:54:34Z loke joined #lisp 2015-07-23T02:54:43Z theos: so people who shouldnt have access will have access? 2015-07-23T02:54:53Z nairobi_: So, they are thinking of running a program that will run on machines of instutitons that are subscribed to jstor and the machines will send the papers to machines (i mean PCs) in the institutions that are not subcribed. 2015-07-23T02:55:00Z nairobi_: theos, 2015-07-23T02:55:03Z nairobi_: yes. 2015-07-23T02:55:20Z theos: isnt that illegal? 2015-07-23T02:55:30Z nairobi_ Aaron Swartz re-incarnate! 2015-07-23T02:55:44Z nairobi_: Is it? 2015-07-23T02:56:04Z White_Flame: it pretty much covers all the various facets of "unauthorized access" 2015-07-23T02:56:13Z theos: ^^ 2015-07-23T02:57:51Z nairobi_: Is it illegal to send a persons idea/work/publication to a 1001 people in the form of a paper. The poor research would have even paid the publisher for his work to be then sold multiple times without him/her getting rewarded like the publishers! 2015-07-23T02:58:00Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T02:58:05Z nairobi_: ?? 2015-07-23T02:58:28Z nairobi_: /s/sresearch/researcher 2015-07-23T02:58:31Z theos: yes if you didnt take permission from the author before distributing its work 2015-07-23T02:58:44Z Zhivago: It's a matter of contract. 2015-07-23T02:58:55Z Zhivago: Or, license, if you prefer. 2015-07-23T02:59:06Z nairobi_: Well, they take permission that the want to make monies from their papers. 2015-07-23T02:59:10Z theos: or from whoever owns the papers now. unless the license permits you to make copies 2015-07-23T02:59:47Z White_Flame: the goal would be to give the authors an open alternative to locking in with those publishers in the first place 2015-07-23T02:59:53Z nairobi_: But they keep making the money for themselves. 2015-07-23T03:00:58Z nairobi_ would want recommendations w.r.t. technologies to do the job. 2015-07-23T03:01:56Z theos: nairobi_ when you are pirating something, dont tell about it to everyone 2015-07-23T03:02:25Z nairobi_: Is there anyone here pirating something? 2015-07-23T03:02:27Z Denommus` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T03:02:54Z nairobi_: It would be foolish of the person to even come discuss such think in a medium like this. 2015-07-23T03:02:56Z theos: do you have something to talk about CL? 2015-07-23T03:03:11Z nairobi_: Can CL do such work? 2015-07-23T03:03:40Z theos: CL is a tool. a powerful one. it can do anything you want it to do. 2015-07-23T03:03:48Z White_Flame: CL is a general programming language, so it is an equivalent peer to all other general programming languages in that regard 2015-07-23T03:03:56Z nairobi_: Can it be used to develop an app that will help share resources. 2015-07-23T03:03:57Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-07-23T03:04:00Z White_Flame: they all can do such work 2015-07-23T03:04:16Z White_Flame: there is no general programming language that can't do such work 2015-07-23T03:04:24Z nairobi_: Nope! They all can't do it. 2015-07-23T03:05:11Z nairobi_: I was reading about CL used in mind-blowing solutions. 2015-07-23T03:05:22Z theos: you just need to copy paste the papers. dont need no programming language 2015-07-23T03:06:06Z White_Flame: nairobi_: nobody is going to assist in public conspiracy to commit copyright infringement 2015-07-23T03:06:33Z White_Flame: so I don't think fishing here for help is going to go any farther than general CL questions 2015-07-23T03:06:45Z White_Flame: as a bonus, that's the only thing that's really on topic here anyway 2015-07-23T03:06:46Z nairobi_: They want to be able to access the papers from their browsers. But the browser must have communicated with an application/browser in the institution/organization that has access. 2015-07-23T03:07:23Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-23T03:08:37Z theos: nairobi_ "they" should consult their lawyers first. then their programmers(if they are any good). these things need money. its better to buy wholesale subscription for the whole lab/uni. they might get discounts. 2015-07-23T03:09:00Z nairobi_: I am not encouraging copyright infringement. I am rather asking for a solution that could be appropriate for such work. 2015-07-23T03:09:57Z White_Flame: this is a programming & programming language channel, not a product recommendation channel 2015-07-23T03:10:05Z nairobi_: Thanks theos. They will be buying the wholesale subcription and making it easier for themselves to access the materials anywhere they are. 2015-07-23T03:10:22Z nairobi_: than logging in.....everytime.. 2015-07-23T03:10:23Z j4cknewt joined #lisp 2015-07-23T03:11:02Z nairobi_: Hence, they wanted advise/recommendation. 2015-07-23T03:11:46Z nairobi_: Browsers seem powerful enough to such such things but there are a number of restrictions to them. 2015-07-23T03:12:18Z nairobi_: /s/to such such/to do such 2015-07-23T03:13:05Z White_Flame: I don't buy it. "Oh no, I have to log in again" does not seem enough to task somebody with a project scope you're describing, even if it's using existing tools 2015-07-23T03:13:06Z nairobi_: Hence, they are thinking of a desktop app with a browser that can seamlessly integrate to do the job. 2015-07-23T03:15:22Z nairobi_: Browsers can now communicate with one another. But how about a LISP app that communicate with the browsers. 2015-07-23T03:20:24Z nairobi_: On the other hand, I have a non-related question to above topic. Are LUA & Haxe a derivative of LISP. 2015-07-23T03:20:26Z nairobi_: ? 2015-07-23T03:21:35Z nairobi_: White_Flame, You don't have to buy it. We think it is the proper solution for the people/members. 2015-07-23T03:22:29Z nairobi_: We all knwo that the publishers are taking advantage of the researcher/instituitons doing the research. 2015-07-23T03:23:12Z nairobi_: BUT it is the world we live in. 2015-07-23T03:23:23Z nairobi_: The govt wanted it that way! 2015-07-23T03:23:36Z nairobi_: By the way, they make the govt. 2015-07-23T03:24:01Z nairobi_: But they are more Aaron-like persons around the globe. 2015-07-23T03:25:10Z nairobi_: I may not know them, but they are thinking of how to change the mantra - information is money! 2015-07-23T03:30:31Z Tinapaple quit (Quit: Clap on! , Clap off! Clap@#&$NO CARRIER) 2015-07-23T03:30:56Z nairobi_: Go watch thee Aaron Swartz documentary on Netflix - The Internet's Own Boy 2015-07-23T03:34:00Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T03:35:35Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-23T03:36:42Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-23T03:40:10Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T03:43:26Z theos: nairobi_ 1) there are open journals. i prefer them to paid ones. 2) no use talking offtopic here. 2015-07-23T03:43:46Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T03:44:57Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-23T03:47:21Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-23T03:49:01Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T03:50:25Z synergy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T03:52:39Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-23T03:52:57Z nairobi_: Thanks again. We are apparently exploring ways to improve our productivity and wanted the right tools for the solution. 2015-07-23T03:53:21Z nairobi_: Hence, we're exploring lisp. 2015-07-23T03:59:08Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:00:18Z kristof quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T04:00:49Z White_Flame quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T04:01:32Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:01:48Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:03:27Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:06:32Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T04:06:46Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T04:07:19Z rritoch: Does anyone know if minion loggs to the web and if so what is the URL to see the logs? 2015-07-23T04:07:51Z pillton: rritoch: The link is in /topic. 2015-07-23T04:08:46Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T04:09:50Z rritoch: pillton: Thanks, though I'm specifically looking for minion logs, the logs @ /topic url don't cover the channel I'm looking for. 2015-07-23T04:10:01Z phadthai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T04:10:41Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:10:50Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-23T04:11:04Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-07-23T04:11:26Z rritoch: Well, it was a good morning. 2015-07-23T04:12:58Z rritoch: beach: You'll be happy to know I'll probably be gone for awhile. Looks like I may be commissioned to build a file sharing service, Lisp isn't suitable for it. 2015-07-23T04:13:03Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:14:08Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:14:50Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-23T04:14:57Z theos: morning beach 2015-07-23T04:14:59Z loke: rritoch: Why isn't Lisp suitable? 2015-07-23T04:15:28Z nyef: rritoch: Unless things have changed, minion isn't a log-bot. 2015-07-23T04:15:37Z theos: rritoch the file sharing service isn't suitable for lisp! 2015-07-23T04:16:19Z beach: nyef: What made you say that? 2015-07-23T04:17:06Z nyef: beach: Past experience running minion. 2015-07-23T04:17:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T04:17:31Z theos: minion: please tell me about logs 2015-07-23T04:17:31Z minion: theos: look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 2015-07-23T04:18:04Z nyef: clog and ccl-logbot are log-bots in this channel. 2015-07-23T04:18:16Z beach: nyef: I meant, why are you telling rritoch this? 2015-07-23T04:18:37Z rritoch: nyef: thanks. 2015-07-23T04:18:46Z nyef: beach: Ah. It was a question from just before you arrived. 2015-07-23T04:18:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:18:58Z beach: Oh, I guess I missed it. Sorry. 2015-07-23T04:19:05Z nyef: Lost my short-term context there for a bit. 2015-07-23T04:19:19Z rritoch: loke: Primarily lisp isn't suitable due to poor file management and lack of a large development community. The ABCL technologies I'm making are in their infancy and not ready for production applications. 2015-07-23T04:20:56Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-23T04:21:01Z rritoch: loke: I'm just going for a typical (boaring) n-tier stack, Apache + Tomcat + PostgreSQL + Spring + AngularJS + FTP/NFS 2015-07-23T04:21:27Z loke: rritoch: Suffice it to say that I don't agree with you. 2015-07-23T04:21:27Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:21:45Z loke: But, have fun. 2015-07-23T04:21:48Z nyef: "Oh, noes! CL doesn't <something>! I must therefore not use it for my new project." vs. "Oh noes! CL doesn't <something>! I must therefore add it to my project plan." 2015-07-23T04:22:40Z loke: In the chat collaboration application we wrote, I certainly had to invent more infrastructure than I would have had to had I developed the system in Java, but in the end I was better off for it. 2015-07-23T04:22:46Z rritoch: loke: I think my point was that it isnt' going to be fun. 2015-07-23T04:23:17Z loke: And so is the community, sdince it led to, for example, the availability of cl-rabbit on Quicklisp 2015-07-23T04:23:29Z loke: rritoch: Why don't you make it fun by using Lisp? 2015-07-23T04:24:13Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:24:22Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:25:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T04:26:28Z Zhivago: The less boring the solution the greater the justification required. 2015-07-23T04:26:31Z beach: AHA, someone is sending me pull requests for SICL. 2015-07-23T04:27:16Z beach: Er, not the person having the handle `someone', but someone named Fernando Borretti. 2015-07-23T04:27:24Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:27:29Z beach: Is Fernando here by any chance? 2015-07-23T04:27:31Z rritoch: loke: I think Zhivago put it quite eliquently. This isn't a venture capital firm so they're not going to be open to much innovation. 2015-07-23T04:28:30Z pillton: beach: His handle has been here before. 2015-07-23T04:29:05Z rritoch: loke: My sales skills, and general interpersonal skills, are garbage. I really couldn't sell water in the desert. 2015-07-23T04:29:50Z FreeBird_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T04:29:58Z rritoch: loke: Instead of trying to sell anything, I just deliver what the clients expect. 2015-07-23T04:30:05Z beach: pillton: Yes, I see fernandos in the logs. May not be the same, though. 2015-07-23T04:30:24Z loke: rritoch: Freelance consulting? 2015-07-23T04:30:50Z pillton: beach: Did you search for the handle eudoxia? 2015-07-23T04:31:13Z beach: pillton: OOPS. *blush* 2015-07-23T04:31:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:31:27Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-23T04:31:27Z rritoch: loke: No, freelance application developer. I don't charge for consulting. 2015-07-23T04:32:07Z beach: pillton: Thanks! 2015-07-23T04:32:22Z pillton: beach: No worries. 2015-07-23T04:32:24Z beach: pillton: I have had quite a lot of interaction with eudoxia. 2015-07-23T04:32:29Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T04:32:44Z rritoch: loke: I would think freelance consulting would be as boaring as working a help desk. I would die of boredom. 2015-07-23T04:33:37Z loke: rritoch: I don't think freelance consulting is bring. In much the same way as being an unarmed gladiator in ancient Rome probably wasn't boring. 2015-07-23T04:34:49Z rritoch: loke: unarmed, lol. You really have no idea who I am, or what experience I have. 2015-07-23T04:35:19Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T04:35:27Z loke: What I meant was merely that you'll probably not want to be in that position, broing or not. 2015-07-23T04:36:40Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:38:43Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-23T04:38:56Z rritoch: loke: The last time I dealt with a consultant, he almost destroyed my career. It was a UX "expert", and I use the term expert lightly because he delivered incomplete, paradoxical, mockups that were physically impossible to build. I was terminated after sending this picture to the client > https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3635/3365950207_6b643454c3.jpg 2015-07-23T04:40:25Z loke: rritoch: Yeah, that might not have been the best idea. I prefer to let those people dig their own holes to get out of. 2015-07-23T04:43:43Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T04:43:46Z rritoch: loke: Apparently the client didn't have a sense of humor, though I did actually solve one of the paradox's using a 7 dimensional fuzzy logic algorithm developed in scilab. I honestly believe I was just used a scape-goat and not meant to solve the problem(s). The unsolvable issues were where one mockup says to do one thing, and another says not to do it, the project manager never responded. 2015-07-23T04:47:32Z rritoch: loke: Well, I learned my lesson. The next time it happens I'll just fire the client. 2015-07-23T04:48:25Z rritoch: One thing I learned from that project, and freenode chatrooms, is that you really can't make everyone happy. 2015-07-23T04:49:30Z pillton: rritoch: That isn't true. There is a trivial solution. 2015-07-23T04:52:03Z loke: pillton: Does it involve weapons of mass destruction? 2015-07-23T04:53:35Z pillton: loke: No. If no one knows you exist then everyone is happy. 2015-07-23T04:55:08Z rritoch: To get back on topic, is there an open source Lisp project comparable to scilab? 2015-07-23T04:55:39Z rritoch: Scilab is great at modeling multivariable equations but falls short when it comes to linear equations. 2015-07-23T04:56:45Z rritoch: While I haven't tested the theory, I believe the new Clojure transducers (applied to Lisp) would be great for modeling linear equations. 2015-07-23T04:57:20Z pillton: What is wrong with (array * (* *)) ? 2015-07-23T04:58:53Z rritoch: pillton: That's just multivariable, it doesn't cover linear equations (with our without implied expansions, aka. einstein notation). 2015-07-23T04:59:21Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-23T05:01:24Z rritoch: I'm not an expert when it comes to linear equations, not sure that anyone is, but it would be useful in some extreme cases. 2015-07-23T05:02:32Z qubitner1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T05:04:14Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T05:05:19Z rritoch: If I did face a situation where the solution could only be found in a linear equation, Lisp is the only language that would be reasonable. Having 3000 lines of code modeling 1 line of a linear equation isn't reasonable, and that is what you would end up with in most languages (other than lisp). 2015-07-23T05:05:57Z Zhivago: You might be interested in R or Mathematica. 2015-07-23T05:08:44Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-07-23T05:09:08Z rritoch: Zhivago: I think mathematica is comparable to scilab, I don't know much about R accept that it's primarily used in statistics. I turn down any projects which requires deep statistical analysis. After working for a marketing research firm for 4 years I ended up with an arythmia from the stress, something I don't want to relive. I do see R gaining popularity though, so I should probably learn it. 2015-07-23T05:09:24Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T05:11:07Z rritoch: Zhivago: Either way, as far as I can tell, Lisp's are far superior when it comes to modeling equations. 2015-07-23T05:11:12Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T05:11:37Z rritoch: If there is a Lisp equivalent to scilab that is something I could use with/for clients without risking the wrath of non-conformity 2015-07-23T05:12:20Z theos: you can always make one. much more powerful than the universe itself 2015-07-23T05:14:21Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T05:15:07Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-07-23T05:15:26Z rritoch: theos: I really don' t believe in the ToE, but a lot of significant discoveries are made chasing it. 2015-07-23T05:16:46Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T05:18:51Z rritoch: My problem with ToE is that if found it would need to predict it's own existance and discovery making it a recursive function. 2015-07-23T05:19:37Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-23T05:20:16Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T05:21:48Z harish_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T05:23:37Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T05:23:48Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T05:27:05Z Zhivago: Lisps have no actual support for it, so you're probably thinking of libraries written in lisp. 2015-07-23T05:29:51Z rritoch: theos: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything#Infinite_number_of_onion_layers and the following "Impossiblity of calculation". I do believe both of those theories about ToE are correct. 2015-07-23T05:30:49Z Zhivago: A comforting belief, I hope. 2015-07-23T05:31:28Z theos: rritoch check out LISPSTAT 2015-07-23T05:32:27Z rritoch: theos: Awesome, thanks. I think that is exactly what I was looking (hoping) for. 2015-07-23T05:34:34Z rritoch: theos: Is it really a lisp? The page references the S language 2015-07-23T05:34:46Z theos: rritoch its An Object-Oriented Environment for Statistical Computing and Dynamic Graphics. there is a book on it calle LISP-STAT by Luke Tierney 2015-07-23T05:35:25Z drmeister: beach: stassats reported that cclasp is building in 4 hours now on linux, that's down an hour thanks to the changes you suggested - thanks! 2015-07-23T05:35:39Z rritoch: theos: I found some code, it does look like lisp, not sure if its CL or not, but its a good start. 2015-07-23T05:35:57Z drmeister: beach: These are approximate numbers that I'm keeping track of in my head - not hard timings. 2015-07-23T05:36:41Z beach: drmeister: Glad I could help. 2015-07-23T05:36:54Z theos: rritoch "This book describes a statistical environment called Lispstat. As its name suggests. LispStat is based on the Lisp language" 2015-07-23T05:37:36Z rritoch: theos: Yeah, I'm checkout out the docs now. It looks awesome 2015-07-23T05:37:37Z beach: drmeister: Is that 4 hours down from 7? 2015-07-23T05:37:46Z qubitner1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-23T05:38:01Z rritoch: theos: http://homepage.stat.uiowa.edu/~luke/xls/tutorial/techreport/node85.html#SECTION000196000000000000000 2015-07-23T05:38:12Z rritoch: bah, wrong link 2015-07-23T05:38:18Z drmeister: The previous number I heard was around 5 hours - but I'm not certain. It wasn't less than 5 hours. 2015-07-23T05:38:29Z beach: drmeister: Still, significant. 2015-07-23T05:38:41Z edgar-rft: rritoch: LISP-STAT is/was based on XLISP-2 by David Betz. There is an attempt to port LISP-STAT to Common Lisp at https://github.com/blindglobe/common-lisp-stat/ 2015-07-23T05:38:45Z rritoch: nm, the link works. 2015-07-23T05:39:01Z rritoch: edgar-rft: Awesome :) 2015-07-23T05:39:05Z beach: drmeister: I might download the new version of Clasp, build it, and repeat the exercise. 2015-07-23T05:39:37Z beach: drmeister: I'll do that as my afternoon activity when I am too tired to do something more taxing. 2015-07-23T05:41:24Z drmeister: Sounds good. I'm working on chemistry code. cclasp with slime is fast enough that it's actually pleasant to use. It's also pretty robust. I haven't had a segfault yet. 2015-07-23T05:41:42Z theos: rritoch "At the time of writing, there is one implementation of LispStat. called XLISP-STAT. This implementation is based on the XLISP dialect of Lisp, a subset of Common Lisp developcd by David Betz" 2015-07-23T05:42:03Z beach: drmeister: Great! Good luck. Let us know your progress. 2015-07-23T05:43:14Z drmeister: beach: I'll run it through it's paces. 2015-07-23T05:48:33Z rritoch: theos: Both versions seem to have poor windows compatiblity. I'd probably lein towards the common lisp version so I could run it on ABCL and leverage existing java code-bases to make use of GPU accelleration. XLISP-STAT seems to only provide accelleration for a specific MAC co-processor. 2015-07-23T05:51:12Z rritoch: theos: Either way, it is still what I was looking for. The remaining issues are just implementation details that can be dealt with on an as-needed basis, preferably "on-the-clock". 2015-07-23T05:52:28Z goglosh quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-07-23T05:53:46Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T05:55:30Z syrinx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-23T05:55:56Z huserl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T05:58:18Z voidlily quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T05:58:39Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:00:18Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:00:19Z theos: rritoch yes it would be wise to use CL-Stat which has full power of CL. CL can use the GPU too. it will take some work from you. and it will be worth it. 2015-07-23T06:00:26Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T06:01:44Z rritoch: theos: Well, for now this will just be for my downtime. By no stretch of the immagination can I apply this to filesharing 2015-07-23T06:02:53Z rritoch: theos: But you never know, if they end up wanting some kind of user profiling for targeted advertising that may open up a few "fun" doors. 2015-07-23T06:03:40Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T06:04:42Z rritoch: Anyhow, playtime's over :( I need to get to work 2015-07-23T06:04:53Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:06:16Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-23T06:07:25Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:08:49Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:10:02Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-23T06:11:48Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:14:23Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-23T06:15:22Z therik joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:17:07Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-23T06:19:23Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:20:01Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:20:09Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-23T06:20:43Z rritoch left #lisp 2015-07-23T06:21:40Z Firedancer: Is there some none video tutorial on using slime for everyday coding for new people? I am a little confused how all the pieces work together. Tried to write function to file and then invoke it, but couldn't get it to work 2015-07-23T06:23:53Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:29:44Z ahungry: super simple/basic - after starting slime and getting the REPL 2015-07-23T06:29:47Z ahungry: assuming you are that far 2015-07-23T06:29:56Z ahungry: drop something like this into '/tmp/blub.lisp' 2015-07-23T06:29:57Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:29:58Z ahungry: http://sprunge.us/jFLY 2015-07-23T06:30:15Z ahungry: Then in your REPL type (load "/tmp/blub.lisp") 2015-07-23T06:30:24Z ahungry: Next type: (in-package :blub) 2015-07-23T06:30:30Z ahungry: you should see the prompt change to BLUB 2015-07-23T06:30:38Z ahungry: now try typing (hello-world) 2015-07-23T06:31:28Z edgar-rft: Firedancer: the most important functions are in the SLIME menu (together with the respective keyboard shortcuts). That's where I look first before reading the SLIME manual. 2015-07-23T06:31:29Z ahungry: Then, open /tmp/blub.lisp in another buffer in emacs, move cursor somewhere within the (defun blub...) and press C-c C-c after making a change to it, maybe to say "Goodbye world" instead of "Hello world", swap to REPL buffer again, and call (hello-world) 2015-07-23T06:31:52Z Firedancer: Sorry about really basic questions, but is repl the buffer that is invoked when you do m-x slime? 2015-07-23T06:32:01Z ahungry: Probably 90% of my slime use is C-c C-c to recompile a function, or calling in emacs M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp 2015-07-23T06:32:09Z ahungry: yea, read-eval-print-loop 2015-07-23T06:32:32Z ahungry: looks like buffer name *slime-repl sbcl* or maybe *slime-repl clisp* (or whatever your lisp implementation is) 2015-07-23T06:33:01Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-07-23T06:33:11Z qubitner1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T06:33:25Z Firedancer: and is it the same REPL or different when I use C-x C-z while on .lisp file buffer and it opens up some kind of REPL also? 2015-07-23T06:33:54Z ahungry: C-x C-z runs 'suspend-frame' in my emacs 2015-07-23T06:34:18Z ahungry: is that what yours is? Press C-h k, followed by the key to see 2015-07-23T06:35:07Z danielglh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T06:36:05Z Firedancer: ups, i think i it was C-c C-z. But unfortunately I am not currently on the laptop so I can't check. But thanks ahungry and edgar-rft, I will look into it once more when I get back to home 2015-07-23T06:36:17Z ahungry: This is more involved, but also more descriptive, it assumes you can open a slime REPL buffer (from M-x slime), a file/buffer for your code, and can or have set up Quicklisp: http://ahungry.com/blog/2015-07-07-Writing-a-Common-Lisp-Web-App.html 2015-07-23T06:36:27Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T06:36:31Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:36:51Z ahungry: a bit more of a read but takes a beginner to their first common lisp web app (instead of some hello world derivative) 2015-07-23T06:38:06Z Firedancer: Looks good. Thanks 2015-07-23T06:40:58Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:43:00Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T06:43:05Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:47:04Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T06:47:27Z j4cknewt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T06:47:29Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:48:05Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:48:24Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:48:29Z harish_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T06:57:04Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-23T06:59:27Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-23T07:04:41Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T07:07:02Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-23T07:07:53Z xificurC_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-23T07:08:12Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-23T07:10:00Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T07:12:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-23T07:18:37Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-23T07:23:41Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-23T07:26:19Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-07-23T07:28:51Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-23T07:29:53Z fikusz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T07:32:38Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-23T07:34:26Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T07:34:43Z keen__________29 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T07:36:12Z keen__________28 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T07:40:58Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-23T07:42:17Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T07:42:41Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-23T07:42:48Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T07:44:46Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-07-23T07:45:12Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-23T07:49:20Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-23T07:53:31Z nairobi_: loke, rritoch and beach, that was an interesting conversation you had up there. I got some points in it. 2015-07-23T07:57:50Z Firedancer: Clwiki has a lot of links to different math libraries, but is it really that best is still LISP-STAT that really doesn't work well with CL? 2015-07-23T07:58:31Z pjb: H4ns: Shinmera: loz1: you are lame at trolling. CL is better than C at computing 40! in Lisp: (f 40) --> 815915283247897734345611269596115894272000000000 ; in C: f(40) --> 0 2015-07-23T07:59:37Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-23T08:00:26Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T08:03:25Z pjb: govt: assume not all GUI libraries had been abandonned. How would that help with writing an app for iOS, Android, or Wayland? 2015-07-23T08:03:32Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T08:03:36Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:04:32Z pjb: govt: now, you can take an abandonned GUI library, and put it up to date, to make it write GUi on iOS. What are the probabilities that Apple will have changed its graphics engine totally three times before you've finished updating it? 2015-07-23T08:07:22Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:09:34Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-23T08:09:56Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:10:13Z emma is now known as viewz 2015-07-23T08:10:25Z pjb: Lisp is gaining in popularity. Soon we'll have people from the maffia or the triad comming here and asking, I've heard lisp is such a magical powerfull tool, could you help me break into Fort Knox (or whatever the maffias are into), with it. 2015-07-23T08:11:19Z viewz is now known as em 2015-07-23T08:11:31Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:11:38Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-23T08:12:04Z Firedancer: Now I am not really sure if you are realistic, ironic, satiric or is that parody from something 2015-07-23T08:12:26Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:12:39Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:13:11Z mobius-eng quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T08:13:29Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T08:18:00Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-23T08:18:01Z monod joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:19:21Z pjb: Firedancer: it's the same inferior lisp. It's not the same loop, since slime communicates with swank which evaluates the code in a separate thread. 2015-07-23T08:20:54Z pjb: Firedancer: the impact for the user, is that special variables are not necessarily shared, you can configure in ~/.swank.lisp those lists of bindings, to be used by swank for each different kind of evaluation it does: swank:*default-worker-thread-bindings* SWANK:*MACROEXPAND-PRINTER-BINDINGS* SWANK::*INSPECTOR-VERBOSE-PRINTER-BINDINGS* SWANK::*INSPECTOR-PRINTER-BINDINGS* swank::*backtrace-printer-bindings* swank:*sldb-printer-bindings 2015-07-23T08:21:19Z pjb: Firedancer: however, all the rest of the state is the same, the various threads being mutating the same lisp image. 2015-07-23T08:21:55Z pjb: Firedancer: so if you define a function in an emacs buffer, have swank load it, then it will be available in the repl. Same for the other special variables, that are not in those binding lists. 2015-07-23T08:22:32Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:23:50Z pjb: minion: memo for rritoch: maxima does systems of linear equations. 2015-07-23T08:23:50Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rritoch when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-23T08:23:54Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:24:28Z monod quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2015-07-23T08:26:12Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T08:26:12Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T08:26:12Z gensym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T08:26:12Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T08:26:12Z Firedancer: Okay, thanks pjb. I had some error "package swank-repl does not exist" but maybe I need to add some slime-contribs? Got to check it out when I get home from work 2015-07-23T08:26:14Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:26:39Z pjb: Firedancer: indeed, slime-repl is a contrib now. 2015-07-23T08:27:03Z gensym joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:27:04Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:27:11Z pjb: I use: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-sprof slime-compiler-notes-tree slime-hyperdoc slime-mrepl slime-indentation slime-repl slime-media)) 2015-07-23T08:28:17Z loke: pjb: Not using slime-fuzzy? 2015-07-23T08:28:25Z nairobi_: ahungry, that web demo rocks. 2015-07-23T08:28:33Z pjb: perhaps I should add it. 2015-07-23T08:28:40Z nairobi_ lisp is weid! 2015-07-23T08:29:01Z nairobi_: I will jump on lua or haxe. 2015-07-23T08:29:20Z nairobi_: weird*** 2015-07-23T08:30:59Z keen__________29 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T08:31:42Z keen__________29 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:32:41Z loke: pjb: What does slime-hyperdoc do? 2015-07-23T08:33:02Z pjb: no idea :-) 2015-07-23T08:33:02Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:33:26Z pjb: provides slime-hyperdoc-lookup et al. commands, I guess. 2015-07-23T08:33:30Z loke: It seems to add slime-hyperdoc-lookup which seems identical to slime-hyperspec-lookup 2015-07-23T08:34:17Z loke: Also, what about slime-media? What does that one do? 2015-07-23T08:34:28Z PuercoPop: display images 2015-07-23T08:34:31Z pjb: yep. 2015-07-23T08:34:35Z PuercoPop: it was recently fixed 2015-07-23T08:34:54Z loke: Display images where? And how? 2015-07-23T08:35:00Z pjb: in the repl. 2015-07-23T08:35:07Z loke: When? 2015-07-23T08:35:17Z pjb: http://wandrian.net/2012-05-14-2110-display-images-in-emacs-from-common-lisp.html 2015-07-23T08:35:28Z loke: Thanks 2015-07-23T08:35:37Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/slime/slime/pull/257 2015-07-23T08:35:44Z loke: Finally, what about slime-indetnation? I'm looking at its code but it tells me nothin. 2015-07-23T08:35:46Z loke: nothing. 2015-07-23T08:36:50Z qubitner1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T08:38:39Z pjb: It synchronize the indentation parameter for CL symbols. 2015-07-23T08:39:25Z loke: pjb: It does that for me already. (I'm presuming you mean, for example, the indentaion of macros so that everything before &body gets indented more) 2015-07-23T08:39:50Z loke: And all I used was fancy and fuzzy 2015-07-23T08:39:52Z pjb: No, apprently, it's only done once when it's initialized. 2015-07-23T08:40:14Z loke: Maybe is used to be like that. Now it works for sure. 2015-07-23T08:40:35Z loke: (I just used it, (noticed that the indetnation was wrong and reliased I hadn't compiled the macro yet) 2015-07-23T08:46:37Z qubitner1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:46:43Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:47:40Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:48:37Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:48:52Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:49:02Z em is now known as emma 2015-07-23T08:49:18Z frkout quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T08:49:42Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:51:10Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T08:51:31Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-23T08:54:19Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-23T08:54:30Z nairobi_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T08:58:38Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T09:02:19Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:04:30Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T09:04:38Z superancetre joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:05:26Z mobius-eng quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T09:10:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:13:29Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:13:46Z ehu1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T09:13:48Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T09:16:17Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:16:58Z jesseman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T09:17:18Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:17:31Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:19:54Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:24:04Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:24:13Z francogrex: hi 2015-07-23T09:24:35Z francogrex: i use clsql to access/query oracle database 2015-07-23T09:25:16Z francogrex: does anyone know of a lispy method to read oracle binary dump files (without using the oracle database)? 2015-07-23T09:28:47Z francogrex: i think it's not possible 2015-07-23T09:32:21Z Niac quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T09:32:33Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:33:49Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:35:43Z ziocroc quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-23T09:36:37Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:37:08Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-23T09:37:35Z qubitner1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-23T09:38:26Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:39:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T09:40:47Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T09:44:18Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:44:25Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:45:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T09:45:56Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:48:18Z pjb: francogrex: you only need to get the documentation of that file format. 2015-07-23T09:49:27Z jackdaniel: mission impossible ;) 2015-07-23T09:50:02Z pjb: alternatively, you can reverse engineer it. 2015-07-23T09:50:13Z pjb: It's rather funny to do. You just need time. 2015-07-23T09:50:27Z jackdaniel: and patience 2015-07-23T09:50:33Z pjb: also, in this case, you can perform a known clear text attack, so it's cool. 2015-07-23T09:53:45Z okflo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:57:42Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-23T09:59:56Z dim: I would expect too many oddities in there for this endeavous to be cool, really 2015-07-23T10:01:30Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T10:01:38Z francogrex quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-23T10:03:49Z mrSpec: Hello! 2015-07-23T10:04:48Z mrSpec: When I use #'truename on linux, it follows the symbolic links, and return me the real pathname. However now I'm playing with windows - and it looks like symlinks are not followed. 2015-07-23T10:04:55Z mrSpec: Is it expected? or am I missing something? 2015-07-23T10:06:28Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:07:30Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:08:21Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:08:54Z jesseman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T10:09:19Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:12:55Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-23T10:14:10Z remi`bd: mrSpec: depends on your filesystem (ntfs I presume) 2015-07-23T10:14:39Z mrSpec: yes 2015-07-23T10:14:44Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:15:20Z remi`bd: on most filesystems, symlinks will be followed to compute a canonical filename, but it’s not required 2015-07-23T10:15:30Z remi`bd: source: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/20_aca.htm 2015-07-23T10:16:20Z mrSpec: ah, its not required… 2015-07-23T10:19:22Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T10:20:26Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:24:03Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:24:24Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-23T10:24:27Z yenda- joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:24:40Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:27:19Z eazar_sheepcount joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:28:29Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:31:56Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T10:32:21Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-23T10:37:40Z loz: is it possible to write grammar for one existing language, and then translate it into another? 2015-07-23T10:40:22Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:46:32Z loke: loz: What do you mean "write grammar"? 2015-07-23T10:46:46Z Akshay__ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:48:25Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T10:57:14Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T10:57:56Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-23T10:58:46Z loz: loke: define grammar for parser generator 2015-07-23T10:59:25Z dim: loz: I've been using esrap for that, have a look at e.g. cl-abnf 2015-07-23T11:01:03Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:01:51Z jackdaniel: /win 12 2015-07-23T11:02:02Z H4ns: jackdaniel: you need to do something about it. 2015-07-23T11:02:08Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:02:36Z jackdaniel: H4ns: about typos? 2015-07-23T11:03:00Z H4ns: jackdaniel: about how you switch windows :) 2015-07-23T11:03:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:03:26Z jackdaniel: it doesn't bother me and pollution is minimal ;) 2015-07-23T11:03:54Z jackdaniel: basically it works with M-w (win 12), but I'm not used to do that 2015-07-23T11:08:39Z Firedancer: M-w? 2015-07-23T11:11:33Z pjb: mrSpec: also, on MS-Windows, there are no symlinks, they are .lnk files with a more complex semantics. On MacOSX HFS+ file systems there are also aliases that are not followed either. 2015-07-23T11:12:37Z pjb: mrSpec: an implementation could choose to follow them nonetheless, given the implementation dependant leaway in the physical pathname domain. 2015-07-23T11:12:40Z jdz: pjb: NTFS has "junctions" or somesuch 2015-07-23T11:13:02Z jackdaniel: Firedancer: Alt-w - irssi switches windows Alt-1 is window1, Alt-w is window 12 2015-07-23T11:13:16Z jackdaniel: I'm just very used to treat left alt as M- 2015-07-23T11:13:27Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T11:13:30Z Firedancer: aaa irssi. I used to use it 2015-07-23T11:13:42Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-07-23T11:13:47Z Firedancer: Nowadays it is ERC. Much friendlier to use 2015-07-23T11:14:10Z jackdaniel: I like erc, but I haver irssi session on my server 2015-07-23T11:14:29Z Firedancer: You could have emacs session instead ;) 2015-07-23T11:14:43Z jackdaniel: I don't like to fire emacs there, because when I copy text, I can't yank it on my desktop 2015-07-23T11:14:53Z jackdaniel: and I do it automatically - it annoys me each time 2015-07-23T11:14:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T11:15:06Z Akshay__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-23T11:15:06Z jackdaniel: I use tramp to access files there instead 2015-07-23T11:15:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:15:43Z superancetre: Hi, newbie question here, what is the correct return-type for (map return-type #'< (1 2 3) (3 2 1)) 2015-07-23T11:15:44Z jackdaniel: probably there is some deep-convulted workaround for that, but I'm fine with my workflow 2015-07-23T11:16:11Z Firedancer: Well I use znc for my irc needs that I connect to with my desktop emacs 2015-07-23T11:16:29Z pjb: (mapcar (lambda (return-type) (map return-type #'< '(1 2 3) '(3 2 1))) '(list vector)) --> ((t nil nil) #(t nil nil)) 2015-07-23T11:16:44Z pjb: superancetre: there's no correct return-type, because 1 is not a function. 2015-07-23T11:17:24Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:17:38Z pjb: superancetre: also, you cannot have a more precise return type than a sequence of T, because < is specified to return a generalized boolean (ie, type T). 2015-07-23T11:18:18Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:18:28Z superancetre: pjb: i'm gonna look the documentation of mapcar, but it seem really complicated to just compare two list, maybe there are other better suited function then? 2015-07-23T11:18:39Z superancetre: pjb: and thanks for your answer :) 2015-07-23T11:19:04Z pjb: superancetre: mapcar is irrelevant to your question. I only used it to show you that you can use list as well as vector as return-type. 2015-07-23T11:20:09Z superancetre: pjb: then i'm missing the point you made, i'm very new to lisp. 2015-07-23T11:20:10Z pjb: superancetre: there are more than one possible order between two lists, so what would a "better suited function" be? 2015-07-23T11:20:59Z superancetre: pjb: i'm not sure, i would expect to be able to have (fn predicate list1 list2) 2015-07-23T11:21:02Z pjb: The point is that a correct return-type is list or vector or some other vector types that I didn't specify more precisely because it would basically produce the same result as vector. 2015-07-23T11:21:07Z kcj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T11:22:00Z jackdaniel: superancetre: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152117 2015-07-23T11:22:02Z superancetre: pjb: ohh okay, i think i begin to grasp it 2015-07-23T11:22:23Z pjb: (mapcar #'< '(1 2 3) '(3 2 1)) --> (t nil nil) ; works too, but 1- it restricts the arguments to lists instead of sequence, 2- you obtain a list and cannot choose a different return-type. 2015-07-23T11:22:25Z jackdaniel: there's a typo 2015-07-23T11:22:40Z jackdaniel: close cdr on lst1 and make cdr on lst2, but you've got a drill 2015-07-23T11:23:11Z jackdaniel: nvm, I didn't understand a question 2015-07-23T11:23:12Z jackdaniel: ;p 2015-07-23T11:23:30Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T11:23:34Z pjb: jackdaniel: I'm not sure superancetre understand it either… 2015-07-23T11:23:46Z superancetre: pjb: ahh ok, thank you :) 2015-07-23T11:23:48Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:24:15Z Akshay__ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:24:42Z pjb: superancetre: mapcar or map will perform an operation element-by-element. you won't make a list comparison only with them. So what do you mean by "just compare two list"? 2015-07-23T11:25:46Z pjb: superancetre: jackdaniel tried to provide a lexicographic list comparison. 2015-07-23T11:25:50Z superancetre: pjb: i was meaning "compare element-by-element" 2015-07-23T11:26:04Z pjb: superancetre: ok. so mapcar or map is what you want. 2015-07-23T11:26:26Z superancetre: pjb: but i didnt understand the return-type thing, now it is a bit more clear thanks to you 2015-07-23T11:26:51Z pjb: superancetre: notice that you could obtain: (mapcar #'< '(1 2 3) '(3 2 1)) --> (1 nil nil) or (|Happy Christmas| nil nil). 2015-07-23T11:27:29Z superancetre: pjb: could you expand on that? 2015-07-23T11:27:46Z pjb: < and the others can return any non-nil value for true. 2015-07-23T11:27:54Z BitPuffin|osx is now known as BotPuffin 2015-07-23T11:28:00Z pjb: some implementation may return one of the arguments (which can be useful or not). 2015-07-23T11:28:44Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:28:49Z superancetre: pjb: ok, i'll keep that in mind. thanks 2015-07-23T11:29:12Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T11:30:07Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:34:28Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T11:36:04Z BotPuffin is now known as BitPuffin|osx 2015-07-23T11:39:24Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-23T11:39:24Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T11:40:22Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:42:58Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:43:28Z okflo left #lisp 2015-07-23T11:44:06Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T11:50:47Z Akshay__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T11:52:07Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T11:52:52Z White_Flame quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T11:53:13Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-23T11:54:47Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T12:00:47Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T12:04:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T12:15:17Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T12:16:44Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:20:41Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:22:42Z jesseman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T12:22:51Z mbuf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T12:23:13Z XachX quit (Quit: ) 2015-07-23T12:23:13Z XachX quit 2015-07-23T12:23:24Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:23:25Z XachX joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:26:06Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T12:26:47Z fridim_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T12:27:40Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:27:46Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:29:08Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:31:26Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T12:36:06Z eazar_sheepcount quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-23T12:38:49Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T12:39:11Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:40:07Z harish quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-23T12:40:29Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:41:22Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T12:44:10Z yenda- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T12:44:54Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:49:35Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-23T12:50:48Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T12:50:53Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:52:13Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:52:51Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:54:49Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:56:21Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-23T12:57:00Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T12:57:29Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-07-23T12:58:17Z faheem_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-23T13:02:09Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:02:32Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:03:09Z billstclair quit 2015-07-23T13:03:18Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:04:05Z Akshay__ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:05:12Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:08:24Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T13:08:28Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-23T13:08:57Z mach joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:10:54Z danlentz quit 2015-07-23T13:11:03Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:13:17Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:14:52Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:18:13Z antgreen` joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:19:44Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T13:22:18Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:22:58Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:23:28Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T13:26:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T13:27:29Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T13:28:03Z superancetre: Hey, when i run (ql:list-local-systems), i dont find anything. i did put a link to my lisp directory with that command: ln -s ~/Documents/lisp/ ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ . Then i try (ql:quickload "mylib"). Do any of you have a idea of whats going on? did i miss a step somewhere? 2015-07-23T13:28:03Z superancetre: 2015-07-23T13:28:33Z superancetre: i did create my project with cl-project:make-project 2015-07-23T13:31:04Z dlowe: I usually put links to .asd files in local-projects 2015-07-23T13:31:23Z pjb: superancetre: when you change local-project, it may be needed to recompute the registry. Call: (ql:register-local-projects) 2015-07-23T13:31:32Z superancetre: dlowe: ok im gonna try that 2015-07-23T13:31:38Z dlowe: try pjb's suggestion first 2015-07-23T13:31:46Z superancetre: pjb: hi again, thanks, gonna try that too 2015-07-23T13:32:06Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T13:32:19Z pjb: and check your symlink. Also, it may be better to use relative symlins: ln -sf ../../Documents/lisp/ ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 2015-07-23T13:33:11Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:33:11Z superancetre: (ql:register-local-projects) did work, nice :) 2015-07-23T13:36:08Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:36:11Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:36:30Z eudoxia: superancetre: the better way to handle your projects is to put this file https://github.com/eudoxia0/dotfiles/blob/master/lisp/source-registry.conf in ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf 2015-07-23T13:36:46Z eudoxia: this searches for projects in ~/code 2015-07-23T13:36:56Z eudoxia: in your case it'll probably be different 2015-07-23T13:37:03Z superancetre: eudoxia: that might be handy! Thanks! 2015-07-23T13:37:40Z eudoxia: superancetre: i usually only use local-projects to clone other people's projects and more recent versions of some libraries, to segregate those from my own projects 2015-07-23T13:39:42Z superancetre: eudoxia: yeah i guess that come handy then. 2015-07-23T13:40:11Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:41:12Z jackdaniel: eudoxia: I like your comments ending :) 2015-07-23T13:41:24Z oleo: hello :) 2015-07-23T13:41:28Z jackdaniel: o/ 2015-07-23T13:42:36Z superancetre: hi 2015-07-23T13:42:46Z eudoxia: jackdaniel: maybe segregate is rather a strong word lol 2015-07-23T13:43:17Z jackdaniel: I mean comment on source-registry.conf ^_^ 2015-07-23T13:43:34Z eudoxia: oh, right 2015-07-23T13:43:38Z jackdaniel: local-projects sometimes breaks for some reason ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2015-07-23T13:43:41Z pjb: The advantage of ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ is that it's taken into account by quicklisp. 2015-07-23T13:44:11Z pjb: jackdaniel: see above. 2015-07-23T13:44:58Z jackdaniel: pjb: ? 2015-07-23T13:45:17Z jackdaniel: I don't deny neither I'm proponent local-projects directory 2015-07-23T13:45:26Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T13:45:30Z jackdaniel: s/proponent/proponent of/ 2015-07-23T13:49:23Z pjb: use (ql:register-local-projects) 2015-07-23T13:50:48Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T13:55:45Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-23T13:59:14Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:04:36Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T14:04:41Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T14:13:46Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T14:14:55Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T14:17:22Z Guthur quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-23T14:18:42Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:18:44Z mrSpec quit (Changing host) 2015-07-23T14:18:44Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:18:45Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:18:53Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:19:13Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:19:23Z whiteline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T14:19:48Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:21:45Z jackdaniel: any sensible way of gaining root privigiles and dropping them on cl, or should I use bunch of sudo feeded to run-program ? 2015-07-23T14:22:03Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-23T14:22:05Z H4ns: jackdaniel: what do you need root privileges for? 2015-07-23T14:22:17Z jackdaniel: mmc card partitioning 2015-07-23T14:23:01Z H4ns: jackdaniel: hm. can you maybe change the ownership of the device? 2015-07-23T14:23:49Z jackdaniel: well, to do that I need to be root ;) 2015-07-23T14:24:11Z H4ns: jackdaniel: is that linux? 2015-07-23T14:24:36Z jackdaniel: I can make it look sane, using my own wrapper over run-program, which puts sudo in front of command if *sudo* is bound, and write macro (with-sudo-privigiles …) which will be just (let ((*sudo* t)) ,@body) 2015-07-23T14:25:00Z jackdaniel: H4ns: yes, I've decided to automate deploying images for boards in lisp instead of bash 2015-07-23T14:25:24Z jackdaniel: it might be usb card partitioning, disk, whatever - wrapper over parted in fact 2015-07-23T14:25:30Z H4ns: jackdaniel: udev allows you to define the permissions for devices. 2015-07-23T14:25:43Z antgreen` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-23T14:25:47Z H4ns: jackdaniel: i mean yes, sudo, but you could also set up your system properly :) 2015-07-23T14:26:00Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:26:10Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T14:26:10Z jackdaniel: H4ns: yes, but udev requires me to know apriori, what devices I'll use 2015-07-23T14:26:37Z H4ns: jackdaniel: i've made my point. enjoy! :) 2015-07-23T14:26:47Z mea-culpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T14:27:02Z H4ns: my linux box has a "disk" group and all disk devices g+rw for that group 2015-07-23T14:28:09Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:28:42Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:29:00Z pjb: jackdaniel: on MacOSX 10.10, there's: echo 'echo "$(whoami) ALL=(ALL) NOPASSWD:ALL" >&3' | DYLD_PRINT_TO_FILE=/etc/sudoers newgrp; sudo -s # via reddit: numinit (shorter) 2015-07-23T14:29:19Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T14:30:00Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T14:30:27Z jackdaniel: pjb: that looks hairy ;) I'll probably use H4ns advice, actually my disk devices are in group disk as well 2015-07-23T14:30:39Z pjb: It's an exploit :-) 2015-07-23T14:32:00Z jackdaniel: imho all apple devices seem prone to being exploit -heard rumours about "privigiled" remote access put on each device 2015-07-23T14:32:15Z jackdaniel: s/prone to// 2015-07-23T14:32:30Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:32:39Z jackdaniel: privigiled by means of producent, not user obv 2015-07-23T14:32:52Z jackdaniel: but it's waay offtopic, sorry :D 2015-07-23T14:33:32Z jackdaniel: H4ns: thanks 2015-07-23T14:34:40Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:36:25Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T14:36:43Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T14:38:27Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:38:33Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:41:16Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:45:05Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:46:49Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:54:38Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-23T14:59:47Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:00:26Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:03:01Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:03:06Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:03:10Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:03:10Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:03:57Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:07:51Z superancetre: i had in mind to create a macro to help me write test, my tests look like 2015-07-23T15:08:07Z superancetre: (subtest "testing function fn" 2015-07-23T15:08:12Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:08:25Z superancetre: (is (fn param) res)) 2015-07-23T15:08:42Z superancetre: and lot of is (from the library prove) 2015-07-23T15:09:08Z superancetre: i tried to write it like that 2015-07-23T15:09:10Z superancetre: (defmacro create-subtest (function-name &rest rest) 2015-07-23T15:09:10Z superancetre: (dolist (x rest) 2015-07-23T15:09:10Z superancetre: `((first x) (,function-name second ,x) (third ,x)))) 2015-07-23T15:09:13Z superancetre: 2015-07-23T15:09:28Z superancetre: but dont do anything that i wanted 2015-07-23T15:09:31Z superancetre: any tips? 2015-07-23T15:09:57Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:10:01Z H4ns: superancetre: you want to use progn. a macro can only expand to one form. 2015-07-23T15:10:26Z H4ns: superancetre: macro writing is tricky business. you should read up on it a bit before trying to write them. 2015-07-23T15:10:37Z superancetre: yeah i guess 2015-07-23T15:10:44Z superancetre: thanks for the tip ^ 2015-07-23T15:10:49Z H4ns: superancetre: on lisp has in-depth treatment. pcl has some, which may be sufficient. 2015-07-23T15:11:31Z superancetre: i did begin to read pcl, i skipped a bit fast over macro maybe 2015-07-23T15:11:37Z superancetre: thx! 2015-07-23T15:13:12Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T15:14:23Z pjb: superancetre: check: Casting Spels in Lisp Conrad Barski, M.D. http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 2015-07-23T15:14:51Z Ven quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-23T15:15:14Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:15:28Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:15:38Z sjl quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-23T15:16:21Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:16:31Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:17:00Z j0ni quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:17:18Z j0ni joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:18:18Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-23T15:19:35Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:22:02Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:25:17Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:25:21Z sjl quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-23T15:26:21Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:27:08Z j0ni quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:27:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:27:38Z axion quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:27:52Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:27:57Z j0ni joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:28:37Z jackdaniel: heh, now I have (deploy-system 'cubieboard2 'mmc "/dev/mmcblk0") ; et voila :) 2015-07-23T15:32:10Z j0ni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:33:18Z j0ni joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:34:27Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T15:34:29Z mobius-eng quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T15:34:54Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:35:46Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:39:36Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-23T15:41:03Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:42:16Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T15:42:34Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:42:48Z switchp0rt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:44:19Z switchp0rt joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:48:38Z switchp0rt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:49:01Z mea-culp` joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:49:16Z switchp0rt joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:50:30Z mea-culpa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:51:43Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:52:10Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:54:21Z axion joined #lisp 2015-07-23T15:57:23Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:57:58Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:58:54Z axion quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-23T15:59:14Z gwyon joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:00:57Z axion joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:04:06Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-23T16:05:02Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:06:19Z justanotheruser joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:06:42Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:07:47Z justanotheruser: Is there a resource that shows constructions of a few simple functions such as exponentiation from the ground up? 2015-07-23T16:07:59Z akkad: jackdaniel: using what package? 2015-07-23T16:11:31Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-23T16:15:14Z psy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T16:15:40Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:16:34Z alms_clozure quit 2015-07-23T16:16:47Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:16:57Z gz quit 2015-07-23T16:17:14Z gz joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:20:20Z ceryo quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-23T16:22:15Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:22:30Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:23:11Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:23:19Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2015-07-23T16:23:34Z beach: justanotheruser: Try ANSI Common Lisp 2015-07-23T16:23:39Z beach: By Paul Graham. 2015-07-23T16:25:08Z vossi joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:25:28Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach 2015-07-23T16:26:01Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-23T16:26:39Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T16:27:44Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:27:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T16:29:03Z justanotheruser: beach: hmm doesn't seem to be what I am looking for 2015-07-23T16:30:04Z sz0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T16:30:05Z Shinmera: govt: Saying that almost all GUI libraries are abandoned gives me a bit of a punch in the gut to be honest. CommonQt and Qtools are very much active and alive. 2015-07-23T16:30:54Z superancetre quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T16:31:02Z Shinmera: mrSpec: You can try UIOP:RESOLVE-SYMLINKS, maybe that'll work as expected on Windows. 2015-07-23T16:32:06Z justanotheruser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T16:36:07Z akkad: always keep a copy of ACL on hand. 2015-07-23T16:36:36Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:36:54Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:38:42Z jackdaniel: akkad: none, only run command and few ad-hoc macros 2015-07-23T16:39:11Z jackdaniel: plus parted, mkfs etc. on host system 2015-07-23T16:41:02Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:41:35Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:41:39Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-23T16:43:09Z bb010g quit 2015-07-23T16:43:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-23T16:44:02Z justanotheruser joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:45:06Z endou___________ quit 2015-07-23T16:45:26Z endou___________ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:48:29Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:49:08Z psy joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:50:08Z akkad hands jackdaniel his docker.lisp 2015-07-23T16:50:19Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:51:01Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:52:23Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-23T16:52:51Z jackdaniel: docker.lisp? 2015-07-23T16:53:29Z psy quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-23T16:53:30Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T16:54:04Z jackdaniel: I don't need anything container-alike, I've automated deployment into real embedded device 2015-07-23T16:54:19Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:57:16Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:57:21Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:57:50Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-23T16:59:20Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:02:10Z shka joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:02:53Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:06:17Z splittist quit 2015-07-23T17:06:27Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:08:05Z victor_lowther quit 2015-07-23T17:08:14Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:08:31Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T17:08:33Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:10:39Z faheem_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:12:20Z cojy quit 2015-07-23T17:12:31Z cojy joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:17:48Z NhanH quit 2015-07-23T17:18:06Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:18:36Z gendl__ quit (Quit: gendl__) 2015-07-23T17:18:43Z superjudge quit 2015-07-23T17:18:53Z superjudge joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:19:08Z akkad: cubieboard is serious hardware... 2015-07-23T17:19:34Z Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 2015-07-23T17:22:40Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-23T17:25:00Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:25:55Z digiorgi: in hunchentoot i want to modify the slot 'uri from the *request* object, but says that is missing... it's trange beacause it is in the source code 2015-07-23T17:26:04Z digiorgi: and in slime when i inspect it 2015-07-23T17:26:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:26:47Z beach: digiorgi: Are you using the right package name for naming the slot? 2015-07-23T17:27:16Z beach: digiorgi: Slots are named by symbols and symbols (usually) have some package associated with them. 2015-07-23T17:27:52Z digiorgi: beach: thanks.... (: that solved the problem 2015-07-23T17:28:19Z beach: Anytime! That was an easy one. 2015-07-23T17:28:56Z paulo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:29:20Z paulo_ is now known as Guest88734 2015-07-23T17:31:09Z vossi quit (Quit: vossi) 2015-07-23T17:31:19Z mea-culp` is now known as mea-culpa 2015-07-23T17:32:49Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-23T17:33:40Z jebes: are CLOS class slots at all related to structs? 2015-07-23T17:33:54Z H4ns: jebes: no. 2015-07-23T17:34:03Z jebes: didn't think so 2015-07-23T17:34:06Z jebes: thanks 2015-07-23T17:34:56Z paddymahoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T17:38:54Z gendl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-23T17:38:55Z gendl_ is now known as gendl 2015-07-23T17:41:12Z Akshay__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T17:41:47Z mrSpec: Shinmera: Already did, no luck. But thanks :) 2015-07-23T17:42:14Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-23T17:42:46Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:44:39Z beach: jebes: Depending on your experience with Common Lisp, I recommend that at some point you read the book named "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol". 2015-07-23T17:46:42Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-23T17:46:48Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:47:20Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:49:26Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T17:49:59Z jebes: I have a copy, just haven't gotten around to it. 2015-07-23T17:50:26Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:50:28Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-23T17:56:27Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-23T17:57:23Z beach: jebes: I had to abandon it the first time. 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The trouble I'm having is that setf assigns a value to the variable instead of just replacing it in the list which causes problems with other expressions that have the same variable name. Ideas on how to swap out one symbol 2015-07-23T19:22:35Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T19:22:46Z dlowe: rm-r_: common lisp doesn't have static typing. You might want to try asking in #racket 2015-07-23T19:22:49Z magistr joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:23:11Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:23:12Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:23:13Z rm-r_: racket ? 2015-07-23T19:23:19Z magistr: Common Lisp is awful ugly and old language 2015-07-23T19:23:29Z magistr: don't use it 2015-07-23T19:23:36Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-23T19:24:09Z rm-r_: but can having strong typing 2015-07-23T19:24:37Z H4ns: rm-r_: if you mean compile-time checking of types, then no. 2015-07-23T19:24:41Z magistr: they can't wrote official documentation 2015-07-23T19:24:56Z rm-r_: hmm 2015-07-23T19:25:07Z varjag: bigboy: setf operates on a place 2015-07-23T19:25:12Z rm-r_: im just read about strong typing 2015-07-23T19:25:26Z magistr left #lisp 2015-07-23T19:25:41Z rm-r_: hmm 2015-07-23T19:25:42Z rm-r_: or ok nvm 2015-07-23T19:25:43Z varjag: (setf (car foo) 1) will set the first element of the list foo to 1 2015-07-23T19:25:45Z rm-r_ left #lisp 2015-07-23T19:26:12Z mea-culpa: rm-r_: I've heard people saying that lisps have so called manifest typing, which isn't strong. 2015-07-23T19:26:20Z bigboy: varjag: as opposed to what? 2015-07-23T19:27:09Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:27:24Z dlowe: the whole jargon of typing in languages is hopeless. 2015-07-23T19:28:04Z varjag: bigboy: you say setf modifies a variable 2015-07-23T19:28:04Z bigboy: varjag: but if the first element of list foo is a symbol won't it bind the symbol to the value 1? 2015-07-23T19:28:13Z varjag: variable is just a kind of place as well 2015-07-23T19:28:32Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T19:28:38Z varjag: bigboy: i understand you want to change operations there 2015-07-23T19:28:44Z rimbaud joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:28:47Z varjag: e.g. (+ 3 4) to (- 3 4) 2015-07-23T19:28:56Z varjag: in this case it has nothing to do with assigning symbols 2015-07-23T19:29:09Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T19:29:15Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:29:29Z White_Flame: bigboy: (setf (car foo) 1) literally sets the car of foo to 1, as in sets that slot in the list to 1, so the variable is no longer in the list 2015-07-23T19:29:42Z White_Flame: (presuming there was a variable in the first slot of the list) 2015-07-23T19:29:47Z jackdaniel: (setf (car (cons *x* nil)) 3) won't assign *x* to 3, but rather replace it with 3 2015-07-23T19:29:55Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T19:29:56Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-23T19:30:07Z jackdaniel: in mentioned cons 2015-07-23T19:30:17Z White_Flame: it's like saying x[0] = 1 from a C-style language 2015-07-23T19:30:45Z bigboy: oh I see 2015-07-23T19:31:15Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-23T19:31:23Z jackdaniel: if you want to set *x*, you would probably do something like `(setf ,(car foo) 3) 2015-07-23T19:32:05Z pjb: jackdaniel: nope. 2015-07-23T19:32:16Z jackdaniel: hence probably ;) why nope? 2015-07-23T19:32:24Z pjb: jackdaniel: you'd do: (setf (deref (car (cons (& *x*) nil))) 3) 2015-07-23T19:32:26Z White_Flame: or (setf (symbol-value (car foo)) 3) 2015-07-23T19:33:00Z pjb: White_Flame: better use & and deref, because they work on any place, while symbol-value only works on special variables. 2015-07-23T19:33:39Z jackdaniel never heard /used deref, is it part of the standard? 2015-07-23T19:33:50Z White_Flame isn't familiar with whatever locative lib you're using. Is it part of scheme then? 2015-07-23T19:34:09Z pjb: jackdaniel: almost :-) 2015-07-23T19:34:20Z jackdaniel: and by saying "nope" you mean mine won't work, or you just find it uglier then your deref? 2015-07-23T19:34:29Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:34:32Z pjb: it's part of the lisp code I've written over the years, and published either in paste.lisp.org or cll. 2015-07-23T19:35:04Z jackdaniel: I don't find working on bare pointers appealing to be honest, and this looks much like that 2015-07-23T19:35:56Z pjb: jackdaniel: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp 2015-07-23T19:36:01Z pjb: they're not bare pointer. 2015-07-23T19:36:02Z pjb: :-) 2015-07-23T19:36:22Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-23T19:36:39Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T19:36:40Z jackdaniel: I didn't say they are, only that this looks like that 2015-07-23T19:36:59Z White_Flame: wow, you use symbol plists for storage? I simply use a cons cell to hold the location 2015-07-23T19:37:01Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:44:53Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-23T19:44:59Z yenda- joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:45:09Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:45:22Z varjag: plists are hot 2015-07-23T19:45:39Z H4ns: symbol plists are not. 2015-07-23T19:47:46Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:48:25Z varjag: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/Bj8Hx6mZEYI/L1ZoPbdQvSEJ 2015-07-23T19:48:33Z varjag: it's a bit more subtle 2015-07-23T19:49:33Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:51:13Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:51:30Z H4ns: no, it is very easy. just avoid symbol-plists, done. 2015-07-23T19:52:41Z H4ns: well, unless you're an implementor and thus forced to implement crappy things from the past just for the sake of being standards compatible, of course. 2015-07-23T19:54:59Z varjag: i don't see why plist is being particularly crappy 2015-07-23T19:55:22Z H4ns: symbol plists are not. 2015-07-23T19:55:36Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:55:45Z ggole quit 2015-07-23T19:55:59Z dlowe: symbol plists are crappy because they're global state that is difficult to see or regulate 2015-07-23T19:56:13Z H4ns: dlowe: thank you! 2015-07-23T19:56:15Z bigboy quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-23T19:56:40Z pjb: dlowe: yes, but symbols are local to your own packages, so plists are not global state. 2015-07-23T19:56:44Z H4ns: i can see how little educative value my grumpy remarks have. apologies! 2015-07-23T19:56:46Z pjb: They're package local state. 2015-07-23T19:57:17Z varjag: maybe we can avoid the symbols altogether then 2015-07-23T19:57:18Z pjb: FURTHERMORE, even with plists on global symbols (eg. CL or KEYWORD symbols), the KEYS of plist are local symbols in your own package, therefore still local! 2015-07-23T19:57:32Z pjb: varjag: you can also program with your hands tied in the back. 2015-07-23T19:57:39Z H4ns: varjag: symbols are great, plists are great, it is just symbol plists that are not. 2015-07-23T19:57:46Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T19:57:50Z varjag: pjb: one finger and one eye is all it takes to be a coder 2015-07-23T19:58:05Z pjb: tell that to the Black Knight! :-) 2015-07-23T19:58:09Z White_Flame: in this case, it was a gensym, so it would be pretty self-contained 2015-07-23T19:58:24Z pjb: one finger, one finger? The nose! 2015-07-23T19:58:30Z White_Flame: however, consing up a symbol, then consing up plist elements to hold a single fixed key seems like a weird amount of overhead 2015-07-23T19:58:33Z varjag: H4ns: i've been off cl for a few years, are there non-symbol plists? 2015-07-23T19:58:47Z pjb: sure. 2015-07-23T19:58:52Z pjb: clhs getf 2015-07-23T19:58:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm 2015-07-23T19:58:53Z White_Flame: varjag: sure, any (key value key value ...) list 2015-07-23T19:59:05Z varjag: ahthat 2015-07-23T19:59:06Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T19:59:11Z mlrutherford quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T19:59:18Z H4ns: varjag: a symbol plist is the plist that is attached to any symbol 2015-07-23T19:59:51Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-23T19:59:54Z dlowe: things with global scope and extent don't become "local" just because you have to use a couple of function calls to get them 2015-07-23T20:00:12Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-23T20:01:27Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-23T20:01:48Z pjb: I just demonstraed that symbol plists weren't global by two orders of magnitude! 2015-07-23T20:01:57Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T20:03:34Z White_Flame: but still, gensym, a single fixed plist key... why not just use a cons cell instead? 2015-07-23T20:04:08Z dlowe: You've demonstrated a willingness to say that :baz is local in (defvar *foo* '(:foo :bar :baz)) because I have to call CAR twice to get to it. 2015-07-23T20:04:15Z White_Flame: or at least get rid of the funcalls ;) (though I presume the code's advanced sine 2008 or whenever that post was) 2015-07-23T20:04:38Z varjag: White_Flame: for the same reason you use symbols in general? 2015-07-23T20:04:51Z varjag: or do we find symbol-value archaic now too 2015-07-23T20:04:53Z pjb: dlowe: (setf (get 'cl:nil 'com.informatimago.x.y.z.my-key) 42) 2015-07-23T20:05:17Z varjag: symbols are more than variable names 2015-07-23T20:05:26Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T20:05:27Z pjb: dlowe: (setf (get 'com.informatimago.x.y.z::my-very-own-symbol :tralala) 42) 2015-07-23T20:05:50Z White_Flame: varjag: symbol-value would make much more sense in this gensym case 2015-07-23T20:05:58Z varjag: not necessarily 2015-07-23T20:06:03Z varjag: really application dependant 2015-07-23T20:06:13Z pjb: varjag: I run WANG's algo from 1960, so much time will pass before I find anything in CL archaic… 2015-07-23T20:06:19Z dlowe: Forget it, I'm done. 2015-07-23T20:06:48Z pjb: varjag: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html 2015-07-23T20:07:15Z varjag: pjb: cool! 2015-07-23T20:08:11Z varjag: well that was half the point with cl originally, wasn't it 2015-07-23T20:08:28Z White_Flame: anyway, in the case that I used locatives, I had a TON of them, so I looked at the various storage options both in terms of size & runtime effect 2015-07-23T20:10:13Z varjag: White_Flame: sometimes one would use symbol-value for "primary" associated data, and the attached plist for, well, properties 2015-07-23T20:10:15Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T20:10:32Z varjag: small things like e.g. color of the node in a graph 2015-07-23T20:10:41Z White_Flame: varjag: I'm just talking about the backing storage object for a locative, so that's really only going to be 1 value 2015-07-23T20:10:59Z varjag: well yeah 2015-07-23T20:11:08Z varjag: and there's always more than one way of doing things 2015-07-23T20:11:39Z ar left #lisp 2015-07-23T20:12:54Z White_Flame: afk 2015-07-23T20:13:00Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T20:13:04Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2015-07-23T20:14:36Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T20:15:39Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-23T20:18:40Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-23T20:19:12Z paddymahoney quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-23T20:19:20Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-23T20:19:24Z selat joined #lisp 2015-07-23T20:20:23Z josteink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T20:20:44Z varjag: pjb: i remember running a lisp on zx-spectrum, i think it was quite close to 1.5 in syntax 2015-07-23T20:20:52Z varjag: wonder if the theorem prover would have worked 2015-07-23T20:22:00Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T20:22:39Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-23T20:23:36Z clique: ? 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My ASDF release announcement bounced, signed by Juanjo, so I doubt it will be moderated.... 2015-07-23T22:32:17Z rpg: Looking for someone to submit it. 2015-07-23T22:32:44Z nyef: rpg: I think that that might be a jackdaniel question. 2015-07-23T22:33:30Z rpg: I suppose I can see if gmane can get the email in there for me... 2015-07-23T22:33:50Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T22:34:03Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-23T22:34:22Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-23T22:35:42Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-23T22:36:05Z rpg: I know that there are new maintainers. Don't know if the old SF list reaches them... 2015-07-23T22:36:16Z rpg: oh, well... 2015-07-23T22:37:23Z rpg: Was also sort of asking to see if anyone on the channel was involved in maintenance. 2015-07-23T22:40:47Z nyef: As I said, a jackdaniel question. 2015-07-23T22:42:51Z dafunktion quit 2015-07-23T22:44:03Z rpg: gmane can't get into ECLS mailing list, either. 2015-07-23T22:44:08Z rpg gives up... 2015-07-23T22:45:01Z rpg: Above a certain level of pain in the ass, I feel entitled to say "ok, if you care, just subscribe to asdf-announce." 2015-07-23T22:46:31Z defaultxr quit (Quit: l8r) 2015-07-23T22:46:51Z rpg: To read on the plane, is there a good tutorial on cffi-grovel? 2015-07-23T22:47:29Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-23T22:48:50Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-23T22:49:41Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-23T22:50:45Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: iolib 2015-07-23T22:51:05Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T22:54:04Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: cool! Thanks. I'll have a look over the code while I'm flying the unfriendly skies.... 2015-07-23T22:54:16Z jesseman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T22:54:21Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-23T22:57:01Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-23T22:58:10Z jaccarmac joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:00:31Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:07:00Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:10:35Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:12:04Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:12:06Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-23T23:14:13Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:17:40Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-23T23:18:09Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:18:13Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T23:20:12Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-23T23:20:38Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-07-23T23:20:58Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:21:02Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-07-23T23:21:47Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:23:48Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T23:25:21Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:30:08Z rick-mon` joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:32:22Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-23T23:32:37Z rstone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T23:32:56Z qlkzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-23T23:33:30Z rick-monster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-23T23:33:49Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T23:33:57Z ft joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:34:37Z rstone joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:35:38Z ecraven joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:36:24Z qlkzy joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:38:47Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T23:41:04Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:44:49Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-23T23:46:33Z vrrm joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:49:00Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-23T23:50:57Z d4gg4d quit 2015-07-23T23:51:06Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:51:34Z Guest88734 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-23T23:52:27Z oskarth quit 2015-07-23T23:52:41Z oskarth joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:53:15Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T23:53:21Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:53:44Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-23T23:54:29Z ipmonger joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:54:39Z ipmonger quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-23T23:55:19Z ipmonger joined #lisp 2015-07-23T23:56:59Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-23T23:57:06Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:00:11Z k_dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:00:38Z justanotheruser: Is there somewhere I can find definitions for the universe of mathematical functions starting with a minimal set of built in functions? 2015-07-24T00:02:05Z jebes joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:02:08Z justanotheruser: s/mathematical functions/mathematical primatives/ 2015-07-24T00:04:43Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:05:40Z k_dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-24T00:06:33Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:06:39Z edgar-rft: The two most elaborated computer math systems written in Lisp are Maxima and Axiom. 2015-07-24T00:06:52Z edgar-rft: But the general problem is that if your math functions shall run with reasonable speed it's better to write one functions specialized on particular problems at hand instead of general functions, where the function itself must find out what to compute. 2015-07-24T00:06:53Z jebes: elaborated or elaborate? 2015-07-24T00:09:26Z justanotheruser: are the primatives like multiplication written in lisp? 2015-07-24T00:10:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:11:52Z edgar-rft: jebes: I'm not a native english speaker. What I meant was "most reliable and complete in a non-stupid way". 2015-07-24T00:12:01Z jebes: elaborate then :) 2015-07-24T00:12:02Z edgar-rft: justanotheruser: Multiplication is a Common Lisp built-in function. More Lisp isn't possible. What are you looking for? 2015-07-24T00:12:27Z trig-ger quit 2015-07-24T00:12:37Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:12:42Z jebes: well, weren't lisp machine's microcode programmed in lisp? 2015-07-24T00:13:02Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:13:25Z fe[nl]ix: jebes: no 2015-07-24T00:14:51Z justanotheruser: edgar-rft: what do you mean more lisp isn't possible? 2015-07-24T00:15:40Z justanotheruser: It's built in but is it defined in lisp? 2015-07-24T00:16:39Z jebes: can you define multiplication in the lambda calculus? 2015-07-24T00:17:21Z jebes: and also, lisp, in this case isn't well defined 2015-07-24T00:17:25Z justanotheruser: jebes: lambda calculus doesn't allow recursion 2015-07-24T00:17:31Z jebes: justanotheruse: false. 2015-07-24T00:17:50Z justanotheruser: oh really? 2015-07-24T00:17:59Z justanotheruser: then yes, multiplication can be defined in lambda calculus 2015-07-24T00:18:20Z jebes: (\f -> (\x -> f x x)(\x -> f x x)) 2015-07-24T00:18:35Z jebes: in typed variants, as far as I know, you'd be right 2015-07-24T00:19:13Z jebes: so yes, you can define multiplication in terms of a lisp, such as common lisp, but it is much more effecient to use the underlying machine hardware to do it. 2015-07-24T00:19:14Z jaccarmac: Is recursion not a major feature of the lambda calculus? 2015-07-24T00:19:32Z justanotheruser: jebes: yes, I understand, I am just asking for a list of such definition out of curiousity 2015-07-24T00:20:09Z justanotheruser: you can probably define any algebraic operator using if, ++, and -- 2015-07-24T00:21:03Z jebes: yes, so what exactly are you looking for? If you want to know how * is compilied, look at the compilier source code. M-. can look it up for you 2015-07-24T00:22:03Z justanotheruser: I'm confused, are you saying addition is implemented for lisp in lisp? 2015-07-24T00:22:33Z jebes: define lisp 2015-07-24T00:22:46Z justanotheruser: a lisp 2015-07-24T00:22:59Z jebes: lisp the idea or a lisp as in an explicit implementation 2015-07-24T00:23:31Z justanotheruser: I don't really care, I would just like to see mathematic primatives from scratch using any lisp 2015-07-24T00:24:13Z justanotheruser: so lisp the idea I suppose 2015-07-24T00:24:51Z jebes: lisp the idea is just a computer language based on the lambda calculus, as outlined by John McCarthy, so you would have to define them in terms of the lambda calculus. 2015-07-24T00:25:01Z jebes: Which is... interesting :) 2015-07-24T00:25:09Z jaccarmac: ^ This is my thought as well. 2015-07-24T00:25:20Z jebes: The Arcitecture of Symbolic Computers covers this all and is quite a good read 2015-07-24T00:25:55Z jebes: if you don't want to dump $300 on a physical copy (its long out of print), you can find some less than legal pdf's lying around the internet 2015-07-24T00:26:09Z justanotheruser: jebes: is there a list an implementation using lambda calculus? 2015-07-24T00:26:29Z justanotheruser: *there an implementation 2015-07-24T00:26:29Z jebes: yes, that is rather trivial 2015-07-24T00:26:44Z jaccarmac: Lisp is a language based on the lambda calculus. From what I see, any LC expression can be expressed in any Lisp trivially. 2015-07-24T00:26:45Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T00:26:57Z justanotheruser: I think there is a disconnect here 2015-07-24T00:26:59Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:27:01Z justanotheruser: I'm not asking for a convertor 2015-07-24T00:27:11Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:27:16Z ToeTag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T00:27:23Z jaccarmac: Well, LC is a mathematical construct. 2015-07-24T00:27:28Z jaccarmac: it will not run on a computer 2015-07-24T00:27:33Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:27:39Z jaccarmac: Lisp is a programming language. thus, it must compile to machine instructions. 2015-07-24T00:27:46Z jaccarmac: So there is a disconnect somehwere that you have to deal with. 2015-07-24T00:27:57Z justanotheruser: the disconnect is this is completely unrelated to the question 2015-07-24T00:28:10Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:28:30Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T00:28:30Z justanotheruser: meh, maybe I can do it myself, more fun that reading others work quite often anyways 2015-07-24T00:28:51Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T00:29:00Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:29:29Z jaccarmac quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T00:33:41Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T00:34:08Z rritoch: justanotheruser: There is a big difference between mathematics and programming. Mathematics simply defines relationships, some of those relationships can be reduced, some cannot, but mathematics doesn't have any VERBS, programming is all about the VERBS. 2015-07-24T00:35:40Z justanotheruser: I'm only interested in operators that can be defined in a programming language 2015-07-24T00:36:27Z rritoch: justanotheruser: Lisp doesn't have any operators at all, it only has functions. 2015-07-24T00:37:13Z rritoch: justanotheruser: If your asking, is Lisp turing complete, the answer is yes. 2015-07-24T00:38:48Z justanotheruser: what, no, I'm not asking that? 2015-07-24T00:39:46Z justanotheruser: But yes, I am interested in functions that represent mathematical operators despite the fact that lisp doesn't have mathematical operators itself 2015-07-24T00:40:52Z jebes: you're not making any sense 2015-07-24T00:41:04Z justanotheruser: sorry 2015-07-24T00:41:43Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-24T00:41:58Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T00:44:46Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T00:45:41Z rritoch: justanotheruser: A mathematical operator is just the definition of a relationship. Ex. A + B = C , A + B can be reduced to C based on that statement, but there is no verb. In all programming languages the mathematical "operators" or functions are verbs, actions to be taken. So the + operator/function literally tells the computer to reduce the Lvalue and Rvalue using the + relationship. 2015-07-24T00:46:47Z rritoch: justanotheruser: Mathematical relationships can be modeled, and reduced by computers, so the only thing that matters is if the language is turing complete, meaning that it can perform any possible reduction. 2015-07-24T00:46:48Z justanotheruser: then lets say all mathematical functions 2015-07-24T00:47:31Z rritoch: justanotheruser: That is really over-simplifying the meaning of turing completeness, but that basically covers it. 2015-07-24T00:47:41Z justanotheruser: what is really oversimplifying? 2015-07-24T00:47:56Z Zhivago: It's also wrong. 2015-07-24T00:48:05Z justanotheruser: saynig it can perform any possible reduction 2015-07-24T00:48:16Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-24T00:48:18Z Zhivago: Turing completeness just means that any algorithm can be implemented. 2015-07-24T00:48:34Z Zhivago: There are non-algorithmic reductions. 2015-07-24T00:48:37Z PuercoPop: rritoch: I'd definitely call = a relationship but + is an operator and qualifies as a verb imho. 2015-07-24T00:49:02Z Zhivago: That's because you're thinking procedurally. 2015-07-24T00:49:02Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T00:49:14Z Zhivago: Consider the expression 1 = 2 + A. 2015-07-24T00:49:16Z rritoch: PuercoPop: In programming it is a verb, but in mathematics it is a relationship 2015-07-24T00:49:41Z Zhivago: Can you find which A satisfies that constraint? 2015-07-24T00:50:24Z rritoch: Zhivago: Sure, A = i^2 satisfies that relationship 2015-07-24T00:50:24Z justanotheruser: lol, a subargument against a comment that was a critique of my question 2015-07-24T00:50:37Z rritoch: Zhivago: You can't possibly know what A is 2015-07-24T00:51:01Z PuercoPop: rritoch: In arithmetic it is clearly a verb. 2015-07-24T00:51:09Z jibanes joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:51:18Z jibanes: p_l: hello 2015-07-24T00:51:32Z jebes: arithmatic is just a processs for reducing formulae 2015-07-24T00:51:34Z PuercoPop: Zhivago: in that case I'd say it is = that denotes the relationship to satisfy 2015-07-24T00:51:35Z Zhivago: So, what were you saying about + being a verb? 2015-07-24T00:51:37Z jebes: math is the relation 2015-07-24T00:51:48Z Zhivago: = is not sufficient to denote the relationship to satisfy. 2015-07-24T00:52:10Z rritoch: PuercoPop: Do you know any calculus? it really isn't a verb because there's nothing to do if you see A + B but don't know the values of A and B, all you have done is defined a relationship. 2015-07-24T00:52:32Z Zhivago: rritoch: I can definitely know what A is -- it is a set of values. 2015-07-24T00:52:54Z rritoch: Zhivago: A isn't nessisarily a set of values, it could easily be a function 2015-07-24T00:52:57Z justanotheruser left #lisp 2015-07-24T00:53:11Z Zhivago: A function is a set of values. 2015-07-24T00:53:14Z rritoch: Zhivago: a Mathmatical function that is, since we're talking mathematics, and not programming 2015-07-24T00:53:48Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T00:53:56Z rritoch: Zhivago: A function in mathematics is a series of relatioships with replacements, such as f(x,y) = x^y 2015-07-24T00:53:56Z rvirding quit 2015-07-24T00:54:07Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:54:09Z Zhivago: It should be obvious that a variable is equivalent to a function taking no arguments. 2015-07-24T00:54:33Z Zhivago: Parameterizing a function can select some subset of values. 2015-07-24T00:54:49Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:55:47Z rritoch: Zhivago: That isn't true in linear algebra, in linear algebra tensors are variables, and often represent dozens of inner functions with possibly thousands of variables, some free, and not all functions are nessisarily able to be calculated 2015-07-24T00:55:58Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-24T00:56:27Z rritoch: Zhivago: But just because you can't calculate the function, doesn't mean it can't be reduced out of an equation at some point 2015-07-24T00:56:39Z Zhivago: So? 2015-07-24T00:57:23Z rritoch: Zhivago: So a variable doesn't imply that there are no arguments. 2015-07-24T00:58:31Z rritoch: Zhivago: I suppose I can demonstrate it in lisp via the statement (setq *some-var* '(+ a b)) 2015-07-24T00:59:06Z rritoch: Zhivago: Clearly that variable works with two arguments, that are to be applied at some later time 2015-07-24T00:59:55Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2015-07-24T01:00:14Z rritoch: Zhivago: A better example would be (setq *some-var* (lambda (a b) (a + b))) 2015-07-24T01:01:52Z rritoch: Either way, in mathematics A + B translates to "A is added to B" which is a statement, there is no action. while in programming A + B translates to "Reduce A + B" which is an action. 2015-07-24T01:01:54Z PuercoPop: rritoch: yes I know calculus. Why is that relevant here. I can understand the point you are trying to make, although Dijkstra phrased it better. However you are willfully ignoring arithmetic in favor of Algebra when saying everything is a relationship. 2015-07-24T01:01:56Z Zhivago: Clearly that variable works with no arguments, producing a value which takes arguments. 2015-07-24T01:02:43Z Zhivago: rritoch: Only in a procedural programming language. 2015-07-24T01:03:11Z PuercoPop: Zhivago: that one side of the relationship uses + doesn't mean it is necessary to establish one. I can say X = 3 but I can't think of any way to establish a relationship using only + 2015-07-24T01:04:07Z Zhivago: puerco: One obvious relationship established by A + B is that A and B may be added. 2015-07-24T01:05:37Z rritoch: Zhivago: Well, the A + B is a bad example sinceit is an incomplete relationship, as it will always be acompanied by something else, like C - D -> A + B (where -> operator means implies) 2015-07-24T01:06:04Z Zhivago: A + B is a good example, since it avoids complication. 2015-07-24T01:06:47Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-24T01:07:37Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T01:08:58Z rritoch: Zhivago: That was my intention, though instead of reducing the problem, and making it easier to understand, I think I just made it more difficult, but until justanotheruser understands the difference/relationship between mathematics and computing, he'll keep chasing something that doesn't really exist. 2015-07-24T01:09:30Z Zhivago: I think the biggest problem is your insistence that programming must be procedural. 2015-07-24T01:12:25Z rritoch: Zhivago: That's just nonsensical, I wouldn't ever say that since nearly EVERY problem that can be defined procedurally can be defined functionally, and for that matter, can also be defined in OOP. Though I'm not sure that inheritance is something that can be defined in procedural or functional languages which is where OOP shines. 2015-07-24T01:12:50Z mea-culpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T01:16:06Z clop2: is there a quicklisp library that gives you something like (ccl::total-bytes-allocated) in a portable way? 2015-07-24T01:16:17Z akkad: (room)? 2015-07-24T01:16:48Z clop2: that prints out a bunch of stuff, but i just want the number... 2015-07-24T01:17:03Z clop2: for implementing things like timing tools or whatever that say how much memory was used 2015-07-24T01:17:17Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-07-24T01:17:28Z emaczen quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-24T01:17:43Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-07-24T01:20:37Z emaczen: I'm trying to "replace" (I'm not actually mutating anything) some symbols in a list. Because the function that does this is in another package, the replaced symbols are always prefixed with the package name. How can I ensure these replaced symbols are not prefixed with the package name? 2015-07-24T01:22:57Z rritoch: emaczen: Have you tried :mysym instead of 'mysym ? 2015-07-24T01:24:21Z lancetw quit 2015-07-24T01:24:24Z emaczen: rritoch: Let me give this a try... 2015-07-24T01:24:27Z emaczen: It looks promixing 2015-07-24T01:24:32Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-07-24T01:25:30Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-24T01:26:20Z rritoch: emaczen: If that doesn't work you can probably use the intern function with the optional package argument to define the symbol in the target package 2015-07-24T01:27:16Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T01:28:05Z rritoch: emaczen: I'm probably the last person who should be helping you though, since I'm effectively a re-newbie, but no one else was answering 2015-07-24T01:30:15Z emaczen: rritoch: heh, I'm STILL a newbie... 2015-07-24T01:30:20Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T01:30:57Z emaczen: I think what you said will work since keywords always evaluate to themselves, but the expansion is prefixing it with #' so I don't know yet. 2015-07-24T01:31:01Z rritoch: emaczen: I believe :some-symbol places that symbol in the "global" package, so you would need to use that notation in both the source and target package. Otherwise if your using 'some-symbol in the target package, it will be bound to that target package, and your best using intern. There may be syntax to intern a symbol to another package, but I don't know it. 2015-07-24T01:33:53Z rritoch: emaczen: You should check out symbolhound.com 2015-07-24T01:34:06Z rritoch: emaczen: http://symbolhound.com/?q=lisp+%23%27 2015-07-24T01:34:58Z rritoch: emaczen: Symbolhound has "saved" me quite a few times 2015-07-24T01:36:35Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T01:38:46Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T01:49:07Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T01:52:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:00:03Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:02:05Z rritoch: Typically, does the require function load packages or does it only load systems? This "implementation-dependent" disclaimer on many (most?) hyperspec documentation really makes it difficult to extract any information from the documentation. 2015-07-24T02:03:45Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:04:03Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:04:07Z rritoch: Nm, I found a good article on it, exactly how I feel about the situation right now > http://weitz.de/packages.html 2015-07-24T02:04:07Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:04:14Z ToeTag2 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:05:15Z ToeTag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T02:05:36Z ToeTag2 is now known as ToeTag 2015-07-24T02:05:42Z ToeTag quit (Changing host) 2015-07-24T02:05:42Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:06:46Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T02:13:25Z rimbaud quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T02:15:14Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:18:08Z jibanes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T02:18:56Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T02:19:23Z ipmonger quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T02:19:32Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:20:46Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T02:22:19Z pyx joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:22:45Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-24T02:23:24Z bb010g: Does CPS embed a lambda calculus? 2015-07-24T02:25:18Z jibanes joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:25:18Z Zhivago: That is a very odd question. 2015-07-24T02:25:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:27:28Z faheem_ quit 2015-07-24T02:27:46Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:27:52Z faheem_ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:32:44Z jebes: i'm not even sure it is a valid question 2015-07-24T02:34:06Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:34:49Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T02:39:31Z ipmonger joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:39:47Z rritoch: jebes: I think he was asking if CPS implements lambda calculus, though I'm not quite sure, maybe he's asking of CPS has a dependency that implements lambda calculus. Either way the answer's the same. 2015-07-24T02:40:22Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:40:23Z rritoch: bb010g: Just look at the source code. 2015-07-24T02:40:40Z rritoch: bb010g: http://www.cliki.net/CPS 2015-07-24T02:40:50Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:41:19Z bb010g: bb010g: Not specifically in Lisp. Just in general. 2015-07-24T02:41:37Z rritoch: wow 2015-07-24T02:41:43Z rritoch: Never seen that one before 2015-07-24T02:41:54Z bb010g: Given a language with non-static scope 2015-07-24T02:42:46Z eschatologist quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-24T02:44:13Z rritoch: bb010g: Your compairing apples to sportscars, sure, maybe the sportscar has an apple in it, but how is it relevant? 2015-07-24T02:45:26Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T02:45:29Z bb010g: rritoch: I'm curious if you could implement normal statically-scoped lambda calc in zsh via CPS and anonymous functions. I figured #lisp would have more experience with CPS, and thought to ask here before I began. 2015-07-24T02:46:29Z jesseman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T02:48:58Z rritoch: bb010g: That is SO far off topic, it isn't even funny. Can you code CPS in Lisp, yes, Can you call Lisp from zsh, yes, do you care, probably not. 2015-07-24T02:49:33Z rritoch: bb010g: See http://www.refining-linux.org/archives/48/ZSH-Gem-14-Anonymous-functions/ which should get you started 2015-07-24T02:50:23Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T02:52:45Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:53:54Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-24T02:55:24Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:56:27Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-24T02:56:53Z theos: guten morgen 2015-07-24T02:57:06Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T02:57:26Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T02:58:03Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:59:28Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-24T02:59:28Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-24T02:59:59Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-07-24T03:01:15Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-24T03:01:56Z rritoch: It is quite amusing that the reality is that you'll find the most programming experience in any Lisp forum, but there's little chance of getting help from that forum unless you can refactor your question into a lisp question. Even if there was a "programming-mensa" channel, I suspect lisp programmers, who would be most qualified, wouldn't even bother joining it. 2015-07-24T03:04:23Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-24T03:05:25Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-24T03:05:32Z sword joined #lisp 2015-07-24T03:06:48Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-24T03:09:31Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T03:10:19Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-24T03:13:52Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T03:14:02Z loke: rritoch: What lisp forum are you talking about? 2015-07-24T03:15:20Z rritoch: loke: I'm referring to the true definition of forum, not the technical definition. 2015-07-24T03:15:47Z theos: forums include meets too 2015-07-24T03:16:01Z loke: rritoch: I know. I'm not assuming you to be an idiot. 2015-07-24T03:16:17Z loke: rritoch: I was merely wondering if you included this very forum in your statement. 2015-07-24T03:16:57Z rritoch: loke: I'm not going to be your baitfish 2015-07-24T03:18:04Z theos: most problems are so trivial for experienced lisp programmers that they dont get excited enough to dig into them 2015-07-24T03:18:26Z theos: (unless you are paying good cash) 2015-07-24T03:19:03Z loke: rritoch: I 2015-07-24T03:19:30Z loke: rritoch: I'm not trying to set you up. 2015-07-24T03:19:52Z theos: he is just offended that you said something wrong about lisp 2015-07-24T03:20:16Z loke: rritoch: and about the programming-mensa channel, I agree with you. I certainly wouldn't bother joining since it'd be full of Haskellers who never wrote a line of production code in their life. 2015-07-24T03:25:44Z Zhivago: They're into tables. 2015-07-24T03:26:14Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-24T03:27:46Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T03:28:09Z rritoch: loke: That is exactly the elitist garbage I'm complaining about. I think it's a fair assumption that the most technologically advanced code you've ever written will never be used in a production system. Technically my the first production system I coded was a BBS when I was a teenager, so I can't recall any significant predecessor code I've made, maby device drivers and 3d modeling apps. 2015-07-24T03:28:53Z cmoneylulz quit 2015-07-24T03:29:08Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T03:29:25Z rritoch: loke: Either way, numerous programmers have developed significant systems without ever working in a production environment. 2015-07-24T03:29:25Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-24T03:29:51Z loke: rritoch: You're arguing a strawman here, or perhaps fighting windmills. 2015-07-24T03:30:15Z Zhivago: All the better to admire his rhetoric. 2015-07-24T03:31:52Z rritoch: loke: In this case, I'm the straw-man, based on your own words, you wouldn't have taken me seriously prior to developing a BBS, even though I had developed 3D graphics and device drivers. 2015-07-24T03:32:14Z Zhivago: I don't think we take BBS developers seriously. 2015-07-24T03:32:40Z rritoch: Zhivago: Today, no, I'm talking 25+ years ago. 2015-07-24T03:32:50Z loke: Zhivago: I also developed a BBS once. I can't say I've even thought about that fact until just now. 2015-07-24T03:33:06Z Zhivago makes a note in loke's file. 2015-07-24T03:33:16Z Zhivago: It's the kind of stain that doesn't wash out. 2015-07-24T03:34:43Z loke: Zhivago: I know. :-) 2015-07-24T03:34:56Z rritoch: Zhivago: What loke does with your mother is off topic 2015-07-24T03:34:58Z Zhivago: What I like most about mensa is that they didn't call themselves mens; thus revealing their true agenda. 2015-07-24T03:44:28Z rritoch: Where is Emperor Norton when you need him, sub-what? I don't think it counts as a sub once it's crashed at the bottom. 2015-07-24T03:45:28Z theos: i am sure CL runs on ancient submarine systems 2015-07-24T03:48:12Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T03:48:58Z s00pcan quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-24T03:49:36Z Zhivago: You could put an rpi in a fish tank to produce a submarine system. 2015-07-24T03:50:21Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-24T03:51:44Z akkad: lambda comes from lahmed, which is a cattle prod, technically it's been in use for a long time :P 2015-07-24T03:53:05Z rritoch: theos: It was a discordian joke. I'm actually surprised you didn't pick up on it, have you never read the illuminatus trilogy? Mildly off topic but I can't think of a language more discordian than lisp. 2015-07-24T03:53:31Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T03:54:26Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-24T03:54:28Z akkad: is clsql-postgersql the most supported postgresql interface? 2015-07-24T03:55:31Z theos: rritoch i dont read fiction so i dont get such jokes :S 2015-07-24T03:55:32Z drmeister: Is there a way to get the type of a structure? 2015-07-24T03:55:58Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-24T03:56:15Z Zhivago: (type-of x)? 2015-07-24T03:56:33Z Zhivago: Which should give you the type corresponding to its class. 2015-07-24T03:57:29Z drmeister: (defstruct (foo (:type vector) :named) x y) (defparameter *a* (make-foo :x 1 :y 2)) (type-of *a*) --> (simple-vector 3) 2015-07-24T03:57:35Z drmeister: I'm looking for 'foo 2015-07-24T03:59:34Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-24T03:59:41Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-24T03:59:51Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-24T04:00:23Z nyef: drmeister: You can't get that with a (:type vector) structure. 2015-07-24T04:00:34Z drmeister: Hi beach 2015-07-24T04:00:46Z drmeister: Shoot. 2015-07-24T04:00:48Z theos: sup beach 2015-07-24T04:00:56Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T04:01:21Z Zhivago: Well, that's a vector, not a struct. 2015-07-24T04:01:33Z Zhivago: You've just generated struct-like accessors for it. 2015-07-24T04:03:23Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T04:06:22Z rtoym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T04:07:36Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:09:44Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T04:11:03Z rritoch left #lisp 2015-07-24T04:13:07Z nyef: ... What does it mean for a line-style to have negative-thickness? 2015-07-24T04:13:34Z Jubb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T04:13:36Z beach: Doesn't seem meaningful to me. 2015-07-24T04:14:02Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T04:14:02Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:14:37Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:14:42Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:15:10Z nyef: Doesn't to me, either, but the type is given to be REAL, not (REAL 0). 2015-07-24T04:15:44Z nyef: Or, even more reasonably, (REAL (0))? 2015-07-24T04:16:08Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:16:09Z beach: 0 *might* be meaningful. 2015-07-24T04:16:32Z akkad: postmodern 2015-07-24T04:16:34Z nyef: Yeah, there's a semi-plausible argument for 0. 2015-07-24T04:16:42Z beach: But yeah, (REAL 0). 2015-07-24T04:16:48Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:17:09Z nyef: And now I'm at the point where I want to declare a type for even-lengthed sequence of... Oh, hell. REAL again?!? 2015-07-24T04:17:52Z nyef: clhs sequence 2015-07-24T04:17:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_seq.htm 2015-07-24T04:19:22Z Zhivago: If only CL's type system weren't so useless. 2015-07-24T04:20:11Z nyef: Zhivago: Feel free to specify and implement a better one. 2015-07-24T04:20:27Z nyef: Well, as long as it's backwards compatible. 2015-07-24T04:20:34Z Zhivago: I could mail it to the standards committee. 2015-07-24T04:21:10Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-24T04:21:21Z nyef: No need. Just write the spec and the implementation, get it out there, and try to talk various implementors into adopting it. 2015-07-24T04:21:36Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:22:53Z ToeTag: I'm pretty new to lisp and can't tell if this conversation is serious or not 2015-07-24T04:22:58Z ToeTag: :D 2015-07-24T04:23:42Z beach: ToeTag: It is predictable in some ways. 2015-07-24T04:24:56Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T04:24:58Z nyef: beach: So, I got to thinking about compilers and LispOSes again today. 2015-07-24T04:25:13Z beach: Good. :) 2015-07-24T04:25:30Z nyef: And... One of the reasons that I am so deeply uncomfortable with single-address-space systems using a trusted compiler is the attack surface. 2015-07-24T04:26:08Z beach: What do you mean by "attack surface"? 2015-07-24T04:26:16Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:26:18Z Zhivago: Yeah. You really want processes. 2015-07-24T04:26:50Z Zhivago: They also make bootstrapping and upgrading much easier. Having a single universe just really sucks. 2015-07-24T04:27:09Z Zhivago: (and that's beside the trusted compiler issues) 2015-07-24T04:27:30Z nyef: Right, the trusted compiler has a tremendous attack surface. 2015-07-24T04:27:52Z nyef: Possibly even if it's a verified compiler. 2015-07-24T04:27:56Z Zhivago: And now you think about how to bootstrap that trusted compiler to the next version. 2015-07-24T04:28:16Z Zhivago: While having only a single universe, so that you need to do it in place. 2015-07-24T04:29:02Z beach: I guess I'll be the only user then. Oh, well. 2015-07-24T04:29:56Z nyef: You then also have the matter of code under development tickling compiler bugs to produce something that crashes the entire system. 2015-07-24T04:30:02Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T04:30:47Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:33:44Z nyef: Overall, it's an elegant setup, but... Even with all of your environment tricks to cover things like bootstrapping, I'm not liking the overall attack surface. 2015-07-24T04:33:56Z beach: I hear you. 2015-07-24T04:34:01Z beach: But here is the problem... 2015-07-24T04:34:27Z beach: If it is not single address space, I am not interested in writing the system. 2015-07-24T04:34:45Z beach: So either I write a single-address-space system, or I don't. 2015-07-24T04:35:13Z beach: And if I do, I might be the only user, as I understand it. 2015-07-24T04:37:28Z faheem_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-24T04:37:47Z nyef: Your current focus is on bootstrapping the system, isn't it? 2015-07-24T04:38:02Z beach: Yes. 2015-07-24T04:39:59Z nyef: What I'm wondering is how to reduce the overall attack surface, or to demonstrate that large parts of the attack surface are suitably secure. 2015-07-24T04:40:39Z beach: That sounds like a very valid question. 2015-07-24T04:40:58Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T04:41:38Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:41:40Z nyef: It sounds like something that could support an academic career or two. 2015-07-24T04:42:28Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:42:35Z beach: Definitely. 2015-07-24T04:43:05Z beach: Luckily, I am close to retirement, though. 2015-07-24T04:43:12Z nyef: Heh. 2015-07-24T04:46:17Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T04:46:31Z beach: But yeah, nice title for a paper "Reducing the attack surface in a single-address-space operating system" 2015-07-24T04:49:27Z ToeTag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T04:50:18Z theos: are the referring to windows? 2015-07-24T04:50:50Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-07-24T04:51:00Z wobh: hello 2015-07-24T04:51:12Z beach: Hello wobh. 2015-07-24T04:51:30Z nyef: I'm currently thinking that, whatever overall approach is used, it must rely on machine-checked proofs. 2015-07-24T04:52:39Z clique: LO techonlogy in software industry: towards the reduction of the attack surface :) 2015-07-24T04:53:11Z nyef: Which immediately has a requirement of being able to prove that the proof-checker operates correctly. 2015-07-24T04:53:43Z wobh: nyef: that sounds like one of those halting-problem type things. 2015-07-24T04:53:51Z beach: nyef: It all boils down to people being convinced. 2015-07-24T04:54:00Z Zhivago: Of course, with virtualization, you can always just have a bunch of your single-address space OSes, and use them as processes ... 2015-07-24T04:54:44Z wobh: the proof-checking problem 2015-07-24T04:55:11Z nyef: beach: Well, yes and no. You need people to be convinced, but you also need for people to be skeptical. 2015-07-24T04:55:56Z nyef: Simply convincing people isn't enough, isn't right. 2015-07-24T04:56:12Z beach: You need to convince the skeptical people. 2015-07-24T04:56:21Z nyef: Yes. 2015-07-24T04:56:32Z Zhivago: It's one of those seductive traps, like relying on transparent persistence. 2015-07-24T04:57:12Z nyef: So, how do you convince the skeptical people, when the proofs are too complex for anything but a machine to check them? 2015-07-24T04:57:44Z beach: It has been done. 2015-07-24T04:58:06Z nyef: Mmm. Pretty much requires a bootstrapping approach, though, doesn't it? 2015-07-24T04:58:15Z wobh: What's the simplest proof that's too bonkers for most humans (qualified to assess such things) to understand? 2015-07-24T04:58:22Z beach: With the four color theorem. 2015-07-24T05:01:19Z nyef: So, you start with a proof-checker, a hand-and-machine-checkable proof that the proof-checker is sound... And then you need a proof that the compiler (or interpreter) that renders the proof-checker usable on an actual machine is sound... 2015-07-24T05:02:11Z nyef: You're at step three, and already need a verified compiler or similar. 2015-07-24T05:04:09Z nyef: ... I'm not sure where I'm going with this. 2015-07-24T05:04:36Z Zhivago: And the proof is not sufficient, since the hardware is subject to defect. 2015-07-24T05:04:42Z beach: I am fairly sure there is no such thing as a proof without the bottom line being that (skeptical) humans are convinced. 2015-07-24T05:05:09Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-24T05:05:14Z nyef: Right, the humans must be convinced in the end. 2015-07-24T05:05:16Z Zhivago: The proof is proof of intention, but it doesn't quite carry to execution. 2015-07-24T05:05:36Z Zhivago: The result being that all computation is probabilistic. 2015-07-24T05:07:17Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T05:08:32Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:09:55Z clique: with a high or low degree of certainty 2015-07-24T05:10:00Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T05:21:44Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-24T05:22:08Z ggole: Unlike computation done by humans, which is never mistaken? 2015-07-24T05:22:28Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:24:37Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:26:05Z vrrm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T05:29:54Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-24T05:32:19Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:32:45Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:33:45Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:33:50Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-24T05:33:59Z lisper29 left #lisp 2015-07-24T05:34:08Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:34:18Z quazimod2 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:40:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:44:41Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-24T05:45:58Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:52:23Z vrrm joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:55:23Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:57:59Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-24T05:58:54Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-24T05:58:55Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T06:00:00Z Tristam quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T06:02:14Z huza joined #lisp 2015-07-24T06:02:38Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T06:04:23Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-24T06:10:25Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-24T06:10:35Z varjag: re 2015-07-24T06:10:47Z Firedancer: er 2015-07-24T06:13:48Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T06:18:58Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T06:19:10Z sheilong quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T06:19:59Z codeitagile quit 2015-07-24T06:20:13Z codeitagile joined #lisp 2015-07-24T06:22:17Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-24T06:23:32Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-24T06:27:06Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-24T06:33:04Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T06:33:44Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T06:42:03Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-24T06:47:51Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-24T06:48:28Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T06:53:47Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T06:55:25Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-24T06:55:40Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-24T06:56:30Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-07-24T06:57:11Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:03:05Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:03:41Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:08:01Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:10:50Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:14:19Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:14:47Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T07:15:56Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-24T07:16:29Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:17:05Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:20:10Z phadthai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T07:20:32Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-24T07:21:52Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:22:57Z cods joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:23:49Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:23:59Z hocwp joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:24:17Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-07-24T07:25:44Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:27:32Z akersof quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-24T07:27:59Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:28:44Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-24T07:29:23Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T07:33:41Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:34:54Z keen__________30 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:35:57Z keen__________29 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-24T07:35:58Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-24T07:36:14Z superancetre joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:37:48Z pjb: The proof is in the pudding. Either the system crashes or is cracked as often as Linux, or it doesn't. 2015-07-24T07:39:56Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:40:54Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-24T07:41:39Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:46:26Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T07:53:50Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-24T08:00:11Z wobh: Anyone know of any other sourceforge lisp code rescue efforts? 2015-07-24T08:01:06Z Firedancer: There is rescue effort? 2015-07-24T08:01:19Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-07-24T08:01:44Z phadthai: sourceforge lisp code? 2015-07-24T08:02:28Z Firedancer: All the projects that host their files at Sourceforge 2015-07-24T08:02:41Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-24T08:04:21Z wobh: I got the CL cookbook a few weeks ago and meant to try a few more, but life happens. 2015-07-24T08:04:33Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-24T08:06:26Z ecraven: is it just a coincidence that cll is both "common lisp the language" and "the complete lojban language"? should we "translate" identifiers to lojban? :D 2015-07-24T08:08:09Z vrrm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T08:08:36Z varjag: ..no? 2015-07-24T08:09:24Z varjag: ecraven: "cltl" is the common acronym i think 2015-07-24T08:09:26Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-24T08:09:29Z easye: Interestingly, the Wikipedia article on Lojban seems to use s-exprs to convey predicates for words in translation. 2015-07-24T08:10:07Z easye: Well, not exactly s-exprs. 2015-07-24T08:10:38Z ecraven: varjag: hm.. maybe comp.lang.lisp? 2015-07-24T08:11:28Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-24T08:12:34Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-24T08:15:46Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-07-24T08:17:33Z wobh: Not sure if I can even do a cvs checkout anymore. 2015-07-24T08:18:58Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-07-24T08:19:06Z Firedancer: o/ 2015-07-24T08:23:21Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-24T08:23:46Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T08:28:40Z wobh: yeah, connections reset. I can get projects that have git or hg, though 2015-07-24T08:30:52Z devsda joined #lisp 2015-07-24T08:31:06Z devsda left #lisp 2015-07-24T08:33:36Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-24T08:33:46Z anti-freeze joined #lisp 2015-07-24T08:34:14Z anti-freeze: Hi everyone, does anyone know if cl-liballegro is still available on quicklisp? I can't seem to get it to work. https://github.com/resttime/cl-liballegro 2015-07-24T08:35:29Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T08:36:07Z Vityok: seems to be absent 2015-07-24T08:36:43Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T08:37:06Z anti-freeze: Vityok, I guess he never added it, even though he uses (ql:quickload "cl-liballegro") in his examples. Is there a way I can load the library from source in to ql? 2015-07-24T08:37:06Z quazimod2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-24T08:39:37Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T08:40:37Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T08:41:09Z anti-freeze: Vityok, Nevermind, I managed to load it through asdf in the .sbclrc file 2015-07-24T08:44:34Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-24T08:45:44Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-24T08:52:22Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-24T08:52:25Z dim: anti-freeze: git clone it into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 2015-07-24T08:52:48Z anti-freeze: dim, Do you think it would be cool if I actually added the library to the quicklisp repos? 2015-07-24T08:53:45Z mobius-eng quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T08:56:08Z anti-freeze: I should probably ask the author right? 2015-07-24T08:56:34Z dim: I guess yes, ask him to open a pull request to the quicklisp repository 2015-07-24T08:58:02Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-24T08:58:21Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-07-24T08:58:27Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T09:00:41Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-24T09:02:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T09:03:42Z Vityok: dim: it is not really necessary to put projects into the local-projects directory 2015-07-24T09:03:53Z Vityok: symlinking the .asd file is sufficient 2015-07-24T09:04:26Z Vityok: but I'm sure you know it already 2015-07-24T09:04:31Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-24T09:08:27Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-24T09:09:09Z anti-freeze: Well, I added the issue to quicklisp-projects, so hopefully someone will add it 2015-07-24T09:09:09Z anti-freeze: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/971 2015-07-24T09:10:24Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T09:12:06Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T09:13:05Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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How do I force macro expansion? Using ``(... doesn't seem to be expanding macros. 2015-07-24T10:58:10Z loke: rritoch: MACROEXPAND 2015-07-24T10:58:13Z loke: or MACROEXPAND-1 2015-07-24T10:58:14Z jackdaniel: force macro expansion? 2015-07-24T10:58:17Z rritoch: loke: thanks 2015-07-24T10:58:44Z loke: rritoch: That said, it doesn't seem as though macroexpansion is really what you're looking for here 2015-07-24T10:58:50Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-07-24T10:59:13Z jackdaniel: C-c M-m in slime 2015-07-24T10:59:58Z jackdaniel: or C-c RET 2015-07-24T11:00:02Z jackdaniel: for -1 2015-07-24T11:00:12Z jackdaniel: more useful imo 2015-07-24T11:00:28Z rritoch: loke: Macro expansion was enough to get me started, I just wanted to see what defpackage is doing under the hood 2015-07-24T11:00:30Z jackdaniel: you can interactively expand parts of macroexpand-1 for better readibility 2015-07-24T11:01:08Z loke: Yes. Macroexpansion is mainly used as an investigative tool. I'ts invaluable when writing macros. 2015-07-24T11:02:31Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T11:02:48Z vap1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T11:05:00Z rritoch: I suppose I really should stop being lazy and install slime. Like Lisp I haven't used emancs since college, I heavily rely on vi since it seems to be faster for my text editing needs. 2015-07-24T11:05:59Z rritoch: emancs=emacs 2015-07-24T11:06:01Z loke: rritoch: You can always use evil mode in Emacs. That gives you vi functionality 2015-07-24T11:07:57Z ggherdov quit 2015-07-24T11:12:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-24T11:16:38Z rritoch: Does anyone actually still use a space cadet keyboard? After all this time I'd thing they'd do away with the M-x terminology 2015-07-24T11:17:22Z remi`bd: well, for one why go away with a terminology when user knows it and it works well? 2015-07-24T11:17:28Z ecraven: rritoch: I have a symbolics keyboard, with the circle, square and triangle keys :) modded for usb 2015-07-24T11:17:44Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-24T11:18:56Z Firedancer: And it is hard to change terminology that has been on use so long 2015-07-24T11:20:28Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2015-07-24T11:20:41Z rritoch: ecraven: That is both cool and scary, but $2,800 for a keyboard is just too much http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xsymbolics+keyboar.TRS0&_nkw=symbolics+keyboard&_sacat=0 2015-07-24T11:22:18Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-24T11:24:41Z ecraven: I got mine for 50$ I think 2015-07-24T11:24:50Z ecraven: the modding wasn't hard, a teensy + some soldering 2015-07-24T11:25:14Z ecraven: unfortunately it doesn't quite compare favorably to my kinesis advantage :-/ 2015-07-24T11:25:35Z ecraven: but it is a very cool keyboard.. heavy enough to deal real damage, if that zombie apocalypse ever arrives... 2015-07-24T11:25:59Z Firedancer: so it is Shadowrun decker board? 2015-07-24T11:28:46Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T11:32:48Z edgar-rft: Super, Hyper, and Meta are user-configurable modifier keys in the X core protocol, so S-<something>, H-<something>, and M-<something> mean that you can assign these key-chords to any other modifier key you want. Why should one get rid of user-configurability? 2015-07-24T11:35:37Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-24T11:37:28Z rritoch: edgar-rft: Considering I'm using putty/ssh I'm not sure that helps me any. (My wife is watching a movie on the other video card and it hid my taskbar) If I procrastenate this install much longer I may never do it. 2015-07-24T11:37:41Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-24T11:37:49Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T11:39:40Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-24T11:41:50Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-24T11:43:29Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-24T11:45:47Z rritoch: How the **** do you type M-v, my fingers can barely get into that position, is there some magic to enable right-alt? 2015-07-24T11:46:33Z jackdaniel: M-v is easy 2015-07-24T11:46:54Z Firedancer: Isn't v in the left side of the keyboard? 2015-07-24T11:47:17Z rritoch: jackdaniel: Maybe it's just my keyboard, are you using your middle finger for meta? 2015-07-24T11:47:27Z jackdaniel: no, thumb 2015-07-24T11:47:35Z lambda-smith: Use the right alt key? 2015-07-24T11:47:41Z rritoch: jackdaniel: Aah, THANKs 2015-07-24T11:47:47Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-24T11:47:52Z rritoch: jackdaniel: I'd buy you a beer if you were here. 2015-07-24T11:48:08Z jackdaniel: I'll claim it on conference ;) 2015-07-24T11:50:10Z pranavrc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T11:50:51Z edgar-rft: If anybody still interested: The value of Right-Alt is keyboard-dependent. On non-english keyboards Right-Alt is often the "alternete Grammar" key. With my keyboard (german QWERTZ layout) Right-Alt is called ISO_Level3_Shift. 2015-07-24T11:51:21Z jackdaniel: I use Alt-R for łęśćąó etc ;) 2015-07-24T11:51:32Z jackdaniel: it's pretty standard in poland 2015-07-24T11:51:59Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-24T11:53:02Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-24T11:53:18Z lambda-smith: Huh, I see. 2015-07-24T11:53:21Z lambda-smith: TIL 2015-07-24T11:54:02Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-24T11:54:29Z edgar-rft: If I press Alt-R I get ¶ 2015-07-24T11:55:07Z jackdaniel: I've got → 2015-07-24T11:55:37Z frankS2 quit 2015-07-24T11:55:49Z frankS2 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T11:56:43Z edgar-rft: What can we learn out of this? german ¶ = polish →. Now we can start our own translation service. 2015-07-24T11:59:36Z edgar-rft: No, seriously: everything outside of ASCII is still an adventure (polite wording for "big mess"). 2015-07-24T12:00:21Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:01:44Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-24T12:01:57Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:04:09Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:04:11Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:05:00Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:06:40Z ceryo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-24T12:09:23Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T12:12:54Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:13:35Z pjb: rritoch: a lifetime of vi and MS-Windows programming has rendered you crazy. You need a good detox program. That'll take some time. 2015-07-24T12:13:54Z pjb: You've been taught emacs and you didn't use it for 30 years!?!?! 2015-07-24T12:15:29Z rritoch: pjb: In college I consdered emacs easier, but when I entered the workforce the server we were using didn't have emacs installed so I was forced into vi and once I became comfortable with it, I just never looked back. Vi is extremly fast which is why I like it for ssh editing. 2015-07-24T12:15:56Z rritoch: pjb: I didn't have root access, so I really don't have a choice. 2015-07-24T12:16:03Z pjb: emacs || ( VERSION=24.3 ; wget ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/emacs-${VERSION}.tar.gz ; tar zxf emacs-${VERSION}.tar.gz ; cd emacs-${VERSION} ; ./configure && make && make install ) && emacs 2015-07-24T12:16:07Z rritoch: pjb: Or should say, didn't. 2015-07-24T12:17:21Z pjb: emacs gets installed on my systems even BEFORE the system is installed! 2015-07-24T12:17:38Z pjb: (otherwise, how would you edit all those configuration files?) 2015-07-24T12:18:24Z dim: for ssh editing, I like tramp 2015-07-24T12:18:39Z White_Flame quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T12:18:56Z jackdaniel: (incf *) 2015-07-24T12:19:38Z rritoch: pjb: Very quickly, vi /etc/some.cfg [ret] /somecfgvar [ret] [right errow to end of line and some C-x] type new value, :wq! and your done. 2015-07-24T12:20:31Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:20:39Z rritoch: There's a hidden 'i' there, but you get the point. It isn't much typing, and vi loads fast. 2015-07-24T12:20:40Z dim: rritoch: you don't use the arrows to get to the end of line, you do $ or A in vim 2015-07-24T12:20:43Z theme quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T12:21:00Z dim: typically, $ to get to the end of line and then B to back a full world 2015-07-24T12:21:04Z jackdaniel: C-e 2015-07-24T12:21:05Z jackdaniel: :D 2015-07-24T12:21:06Z dim: same as C-e M-b in Emacs 2015-07-24T12:21:28Z dim: anyway, you might also like the evil mode, bringing you vim editor right inside Emacs 2015-07-24T12:21:31Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-24T12:22:12Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:23:37Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:27:18Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:28:56Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:29:10Z rritoch: Amazing the things you remember with the right triggers. I remember typing emacs on the server, and when it responded with "no such command..." my first thought was, well, I'm going to be fired, it was fun while it lasted. 2015-07-24T12:30:03Z rritoch: Luckly one of my co-workers gave me a crash course in vi 2015-07-24T12:30:24Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-24T12:31:08Z jackdaniel: http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html 2015-07-24T12:31:28Z jackdaniel: I tought you'll gonna be fired *for* using emacs :D you know, religion is funny ;] 2015-07-24T12:32:23Z jackdaniel: note the note below listed files 2015-07-24T12:32:27Z rritoch: jackdaniel: rofl 2015-07-24T12:32:33Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:32:37Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T12:32:51Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:33:16Z rritoch: jackdaniel: My wife just called me crazy in Illongo, literal lol on that one. 2015-07-24T12:34:49Z jackdaniel: I don't get it, can you elaborate what is Illongo and how is it related? ;p 2015-07-24T12:35:37Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T12:35:38Z rritoch: Illongo is the (dying) native language where I live, if I used the actual term you wouldn't have understood me. 2015-07-24T12:36:15Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-24T12:37:17Z ecraven: namit! 2015-07-24T12:37:31Z ecraven: wikipedia claims that's "delicious" in hiligaynon/illongo 2015-07-24T12:37:33Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:37:33Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-24T12:37:33Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:37:37Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:38:29Z rritoch: ecraven: Yeah, loosly, more like "tastes good", I think delicious is "mas namit" 2015-07-24T12:39:33Z rritoch: The good thing is I can swear in Illongo in code and without much risk of getting fired. 2015-07-24T12:40:43Z jackdaniel: shift\f ;) 2015-07-24T12:41:50Z jackdaniel: I remember somebody claimed, they had deshitter in company - application was looking for "shit" words and replaced them with random string 2015-07-24T12:41:58Z jackdaniel: in codebase that is 2015-07-24T12:42:04Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T12:42:44Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:43:28Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T12:44:29Z pjb: rritoch: there are at least two things that are completely wrong in your command: the prefix: vi, and the end :wq! (emacs-uptime) --> "Up 6d 0h 36m 12s (Sat 2015-07-18 14:08:13), 54 buffers, 10 files" 2015-07-24T12:44:57Z ecraven: so in a baseball game "int mishits = 0;" would seriously break :) 2015-07-24T12:45:44Z pjb: rritoch: and this is on the desktop. On the server: "Up 202d 19h 46m 38s (Fri 2015-01-02 17:58:38), 22 buffers, 3 files" 2015-07-24T12:45:44Z pjb: 2015-07-24T12:46:55Z rritoch: pjb: Sure, but the overall point was there wasn't much typing involved, it isn't C-x either, it's just x 2015-07-24T12:47:21Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-24T12:47:37Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T12:47:44Z pjb: rritoch: still sounds crazy. I was using vi on A/UX. When I was introduced to emacs on NeXTSTEP, I never looked back! 2015-07-24T12:48:05Z rritoch: jackdaniel: I think it would be an amusing project to add a logger to ed and see what college level programming students with no ed experience end up typing. 2015-07-24T12:48:24Z jackdaniel: rritoch: same thing applies to vi ;] 2015-07-24T12:48:37Z pjb: rritoch: I wrote an ed in Fortran on VAX before I knew how to use it :-) 2015-07-24T12:48:39Z jackdaniel: human-powered random-number generator 2015-07-24T12:49:04Z pjb: That was funny, they taught fortran, and the project was to write an editor :-) 2015-07-24T12:49:17Z pjb: Fortran IV even. 2015-07-24T12:49:40Z jackdaniel: #include <stdio.h> \n int main() { char buf; while(1) { scanf("%c", buf); printf("?\n"); } } // <- ed 2015-07-24T12:49:47Z jackdaniel: tfu, &buf 2015-07-24T12:50:38Z radioninja_work quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T12:51:14Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T12:52:53Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:53:12Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-24T12:54:41Z Vityok: Have good weekend! bye-bye 2015-07-24T12:54:43Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:54:49Z jackdaniel: ciao, hf o/ 2015-07-24T12:55:20Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-24T12:55:52Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-24T12:56:12Z Vityok left #lisp 2015-07-24T12:57:42Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:57:55Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2015-07-24T12:59:44Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T13:03:23Z furniture joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:07:36Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-24T13:08:37Z rritoch quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-24T13:11:01Z hitecnologys: #lisp, I need your help again in naming stuff. Now the purpose of the code is to provide convenience layer for developing APIs both for access to foreign services (i.e. acting as API client) and for others to use (i.e. acting as API provider). Again, preferably no particular relation to CL in name unless it's disguised somehow smartly. I'm really out of ideas and desperate enough to go for book or movie 2015-07-24T13:11:04Z hitecnologys: characters. =P 2015-07-24T13:11:10Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:11:25Z hitecnologys: You kidding me, two messages? 2015-07-24T13:12:06Z lambda-smith: Did SBCL guys just moved to Launchpad? 2015-07-24T13:12:37Z pjb: hitecnologys: janus 2015-07-24T13:12:49Z hitecnologys: lambda-smith: they were there for like forever. 2015-07-24T13:12:56Z lambda-smith: Oops, sorry then 2015-07-24T13:13:30Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:13:31Z fe[nl]ix: lambda-smith: launchpad is only for bug tracking 2015-07-24T13:13:40Z hitecnologys: pjb: hmm, that's quite good. 2015-07-24T13:14:06Z hitecnologys: pjb: it doesn't google so well, though. 2015-07-24T13:14:38Z pjb: clanus doesn't sound as good :-( 2015-07-24T13:15:07Z pjb: You can also name it something like: janus-beard 2015-07-24T13:15:33Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:15:55Z hitecnologys: Hmm. 2015-07-24T13:16:14Z pjb: He also had a number of epithets. 2015-07-24T13:16:19Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus 2015-07-24T13:16:49Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:18:52Z varjag: cl-janus 2015-07-24T13:19:45Z hitecnologys: varjag: there are already too much things named cl-*. 2015-07-24T13:20:51Z jackdaniel: janus-cl (disguise! ;) 2015-07-24T13:20:56Z varjag: well that's the trend 2015-07-24T13:21:09Z varjag: like *py with python 2015-07-24T13:21:18Z varjag: or j-whatever with java 2015-07-24T13:21:41Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T13:21:50Z hitecnologys: Clusivius sounds quite awesome. 2015-07-24T13:22:15Z hitecnologys: I think I'll stick with that, screw the googling. Thanks everyone. 2015-07-24T13:22:50Z pjb: There's already a protocol generator, but I don't remember its name. 2015-07-24T13:23:37Z hitecnologys: Sounds like something I would like to check out. If you ever remember, I'm interested. 2015-07-24T13:27:58Z pjb: http://www.cliki.net/Etiquette 2015-07-24T13:28:01Z pjb: this one. 2015-07-24T13:30:28Z hitecnologys: Oh, that looks like approximately what I've been writing for a few months. 2015-07-24T13:30:46Z pjb: hitecnologys: I always tell people to browse cliki.net… 2015-07-24T13:31:00Z hitecnologys: pjb: mine is for raw sockets and binary protocols, though. 2015-07-24T13:31:34Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:31:40Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-24T13:31:50Z hitecnologys: pjb: and it's aimed at high performance as well. 2015-07-24T13:32:22Z pjb: hitecnologys: check: Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZmcmdsoAXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UOmItPa4iA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPavndhYxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9xLi0iJg1g 2015-07-24T13:32:22Z pjb: 2015-07-24T13:32:58Z pjb: hitecnologys: the principle is sound: you describe the API with a high level grammar or some kind of declaration, and you have generator that generates optimized code for various targets. 2015-07-24T13:33:20Z hitecnologys: pjb: yeah, that's what I want. 2015-07-24T13:33:49Z hitecnologys: pjb: actually, that's *exactly* what I want. Networking is a pain. 2015-07-24T13:34:03Z hitecnologys: It would be good to have computer do it, not me. 2015-07-24T13:34:43Z joshmcmillan_ quit 2015-07-24T13:34:52Z hitecnologys: pjb: videos look good, will check them out, thanks. 2015-07-24T13:34:53Z joshmcmillan_ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:35:27Z pjb: and https://vimeo.com/82301919 2015-07-24T13:36:51Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-24T13:37:20Z pjb: hitecnologys: so, the point here is that you can make it modular. Do not strongly link the declaration/description of the API with the generation, so you may have alternate generator. raw sockets/binary, tcp/text protocol, OO messages ending protocols, link API, whatever. 2015-07-24T13:37:52Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T13:38:24Z hitecnologys: pjb: sounds good but it's a lot of work. 2015-07-24T13:38:49Z pjb: Alan Kay seems to be saying that it leads to very concise code. 2015-07-24T13:38:54Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:39:05Z pjb: So indeed, it may demand some reflection, but much less code, and much less bugs. 2015-07-24T13:39:33Z pjb: Check the papers from http://vpri.org/ 2015-07-24T13:40:14Z hitecnologys: Where do you get all this stuff from? 2015-07-24T13:40:15Z pjb: (and if you want to write parsers for non sexp-based DSLs like they do, there's CL-OMeta). 2015-07-24T13:40:25Z pjb: hitecnologys: following Alan Kay :-) 2015-07-24T13:41:06Z Petit_Dejeuenr joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:41:06Z Petit_Dejeuenr is now known as Petit_Fejeuner 2015-07-24T13:41:15Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:41:19Z hitecnologys: pjb: is it cl-ometa or clometa? 2015-07-24T13:41:24Z pjb: Besides the pioneers, like Backus, McCarthy, EDW and Knuth, there are not a log of important CS searchers. Alan Kay, Douglas Hofstadter, who else? 2015-07-24T13:41:39Z Petit_Fejeuner is now known as Petit_Dejeuner 2015-07-24T13:42:18Z pjb: https://github.com/thiago-silva/cl-ometa 2015-07-24T13:42:38Z hitecnologys: Ah, yeah, found it, thanks. 2015-07-24T13:45:21Z furniture: pjb: Dennis MacAlistair Ritchie 2015-07-24T13:47:07Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-24T13:47:09Z pjb: furniture: http://www.csf.ac.at/fileadmin/user_upload/BioComp/training/unix_haters_handbook.pdf 2015-07-24T13:48:26Z pjb: We're talking fundamental (radical) research, not R&D for commercial enterprises. 2015-07-24T13:49:19Z fe[nl]ix: the guys at Microsoft research 2015-07-24T13:49:38Z oleo: hello :) 2015-07-24T13:49:55Z furniture: pjb: what a silly book :-) but Dennis Ritchie did a radial research. 2015-07-24T13:50:09Z pjb: fe[nl]ix: nope. Once Shapiro got hired by Microsoft (commercial) R&D, he stopped working on EROS/Coyotos. 2015-07-24T13:50:55Z pjb: which is rather dumb on the part of Microsoft, if they had been google they would have given him a department to develop this kind of OS! We'd not get Windows-10 today… 2015-07-24T13:51:02Z furniture: pjb: in fact there are Unix and C everywhere, rather than Symbolics Genera. It's just a fact. 2015-07-24T13:51:04Z fe[nl]ix: the work they're doing on proof systems is pretty amazing 2015-07-24T13:51:21Z pjb: furniture: there are also McDonald's everywhere. 2015-07-24T13:51:47Z pjb: fe[nl]ix: and didn't they get fired almost all of them last year? 2015-07-24T13:52:00Z furniture: pjb: I believe this IRC server running on Unix :) 2015-07-24T13:52:47Z pjb: furniture: that's not the point. My house is also built with technology developped 3000 years ago, and I'm sitting on a chair built with technology developped 5000 years ago. 2015-07-24T13:53:32Z pjb: Who cares our computers are running technology developped in 1968 to run programs using a technology developped in 1959 (and that no other programming language include completely yet). 2015-07-24T13:53:52Z pjb: furniture: I'm talking Startrek computers technology. 2015-07-24T13:53:52Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:54:09Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-24T13:54:21Z furniture: pjb: this is a great point because Ritchie did a great and useful tools, rather than bla-bla-bla 2015-07-24T13:54:25Z pjb: furniture: just watch Alan Kay's conferences. 2015-07-24T13:54:34Z furniture: pjb: okay 2015-07-24T13:54:56Z pjb: furniture: nope. He essentially killed Multics and LispMachines which were better OSes. 2015-07-24T13:55:22Z pjb: furniture: check http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/2756311030/ref=oss_product 2015-07-24T13:55:31Z furniture: pjb: why the "better OSes" died than? 2015-07-24T13:55:45Z pjb: furniture: the reason is given in http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/2756311030/ref=oss_product 2015-07-24T13:56:04Z pjb: basically, because you measure things with dollars (money). 2015-07-24T13:56:19Z furniture: pjb: and you> 2015-07-24T13:56:20Z pjb: tha'ts what AT&T and Microsoft and Apple, etc do. 2015-07-24T13:56:34Z furniture: pjb: what is your measure? 2015-07-24T13:56:57Z pjb: furniture: I don't. I'm saying lispmachines were better, and that we could build better systems if we listened not to DMR, but to Alan Kay et al. 2015-07-24T13:56:59Z jackdaniel: and maybe because of worse is better (: aren't you the same guy furniture who were lurking here for a few days trying to change topic etc? 2015-07-24T13:57:25Z jackdaniel: I have that hunch, that you are 2015-07-24T13:58:21Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T13:58:37Z stupidpioneers: pjb: lisp machines are better than what? 2015-07-24T13:58:47Z stupidpioneers: and in what way 2015-07-24T13:59:15Z jackdaniel: they make birds sing and flowers smell, ensuring world is a peacefull place 2015-07-24T13:59:26Z furniture: pjb: what do you eat? I'm eating the food which costs a money. 2015-07-24T13:59:53Z furniture: pjb: you wants to eat the lispmachines? :) me not. 2015-07-24T14:00:17Z otwieracz: crunchy 2015-07-24T14:00:21Z otwieracz: om om 2015-07-24T14:00:22Z furniture: pjb: so, who needs the lispmachines if there is no food? 2015-07-24T14:00:38Z furniture: pjb: which costs money 2015-07-24T14:00:38Z Posterdati: hi people 2015-07-24T14:00:40Z jackdaniel: furniture: yes your are him ^_^ stop offtopic please 2015-07-24T14:00:43Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: o/ 2015-07-24T14:00:59Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: is it possible to use ecl to generate avr code? 2015-07-24T14:01:07Z pjb: furniture: food doesn't cost money: it grows on trees! 2015-07-24T14:01:28Z pjb: money doesn't grow on tree: banks tells you here is some money, now give me back interests. 2015-07-24T14:01:38Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: there is gcc-avr afaik 2015-07-24T14:01:49Z jackdaniel: so yes, but you have to cross-compile, what isn't trivial 2015-07-24T14:01:51Z furniture: pjb: there 7 billions people around the world. do you really thinks that 7 billions people should eat food from trees? :) 2015-07-24T14:01:59Z pjb: furniture: https://www.thevenusproject.com/en/ 2015-07-24T14:02:06Z hitecnologys: furniture: it doesn't actually, it costs work hours of people who make it and who made machines to make it, etc. The thing is they traded they work hours for money and you traded your money you traded before for produce of their work so you don't need to do it yourself hence saved your time so you could later trade it again. Basically, it all costs time and resources which are fundamental "monetary" units. 2015-07-24T14:02:23Z pjb: furniture: how old are you? If you're 8 yo, I understand. But if you're older what have you done with the Internet so far? Have you ONLY watched porn? 2015-07-24T14:02:33Z pjb: furniture: browse and learn something! 2015-07-24T14:02:42Z hitecnologys: And stop off-topicing, please. Jackdaniel's right. 2015-07-24T14:03:28Z furniture: could you tell me please, why LispWorks so expensive? :-) 2015-07-24T14:03:41Z hitecnologys: You can continue this conversation in #lispcafe. 2015-07-24T14:04:06Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:04:30Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T14:06:20Z Firedancer: So.... do we have on-topic discussion? 2015-07-24T14:06:47Z pjb: Yes. 2015-07-24T14:06:49Z pjb: Firedancer: type /topic 2015-07-24T14:07:07Z jackdaniel: I better read nil then trolling crappitry ;) 2015-07-24T14:08:15Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T14:10:17Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:10:50Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:13:40Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:14:12Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:14:50Z anti-freeze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T14:14:59Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-24T14:16:29Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T14:16:56Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:17:29Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T14:18:51Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:19:27Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:22:39Z Kenjin quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-24T14:24:54Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:26:36Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T14:27:27Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:28:09Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:31:04Z j_king: Merh... my emacs/slime are not working anymore. Downgrade time methinks. 2015-07-24T14:31:32Z pjb: j_king: sure. Your car fails, you throw it away and go buy a bicycle. 2015-07-24T14:31:38Z Fade: which lisp are you using? 2015-07-24T14:31:41Z pjb: j_king: what about adding some gas? 2015-07-24T14:31:52Z j_king: pjb: damn straight. 2015-07-24T14:32:11Z furniture: j_king: use M-x compile instead :) 2015-07-24T14:32:15Z j_king: Fade: ccl64, emacs 24.5.1, latest slime from marmalade 2015-07-24T14:32:33Z pjb: j_king: we'd advise the slime from quicklisp. 2015-07-24T14:32:36Z Fade: i've never tracked slime through emacs packages. 2015-07-24T14:32:47Z Fade: but I concur with pjb. 2015-07-24T14:33:52Z j_king: i stopped using that slime a while ago for reasons I cannot recall. I'll give it a try. This slime-face-inheritance-possible-p business is annoying. 2015-07-24T14:34:09Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:34:25Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:34:33Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-24T14:34:48Z pjb: You can disable it. 2015-07-24T14:35:00Z pjb: slime is modular, you can activate or deactivate contribs. 2015-07-24T14:35:09Z ceryo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:35:37Z pjb: I use (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-sprof slime-compiler-notes-tree slime-hyperdoc slime-mrepl slime-indentation slime-repl slime-media)) ; but you could just have (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) for example. 2015-07-24T14:37:09Z lambda-smith: pjb: Do you use either ac-slime or slime-company? 2015-07-24T14:37:38Z pjb: neither it seems. 2015-07-24T14:38:08Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-24T14:38:19Z lambda-smith: I see. 2015-07-24T14:38:32Z ceryo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:38:44Z ceryo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T14:39:01Z j_king: pjb: I'll dig more. I found the commit where they removed that function; trying to find out who's still calling it. 2015-07-24T14:39:27Z j_king: Maybe the recent marmalade build isn't up to date? 2015-07-24T14:39:29Z j_king shrugs. 2015-07-24T14:40:04Z furniture: very nice. somebody remove the function and broke the release :) 2015-07-24T14:40:13Z furniture: cool hackers 2015-07-24T14:41:23Z ceryo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-24T14:41:50Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T14:43:17Z gendl_ quit (Quit: gendl_) 2015-07-24T14:43:38Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:45:19Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:46:36Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-24T14:47:36Z furniture: pjb: I've checked the silly book about Unix, which says "Like Unix, C++ was never designed, it mutated as one goofy mistake 2015-07-24T14:47:36Z furniture: after another became obvious." But this is a Lisp way of incremental development without any planning. 2015-07-24T14:47:59Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T14:49:16Z ahungry joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:49:55Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T14:49:57Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-24T14:50:10Z pjb: Of course. 2015-07-24T14:50:54Z pjb: furniture: a+b=c doesn't just say that a+b = c. It also say that c-a=b and c-b=a and a+b-c=0 and c-a-b=0 2015-07-24T14:51:37Z pjb: furniture: unfortunately when you tell people that a+b=c they only hear a+b=c and forget about c-a=b and the rest. 2015-07-24T14:56:25Z dim: pjb: not for any datatype, you need some background before you can say that 2015-07-24T14:57:12Z dim: basic algebra with groups, neutral element, commutativity and associativity, it's easy enough to encounter datatypes that don't fit into that model 2015-07-24T14:58:40Z j_king: well the quicklisp slime is older but works. downgrade complete. 2015-07-24T14:58:41Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-24T14:59:03Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-24T14:59:20Z j_king feels less anxious. 2015-07-24T15:00:40Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:02:26Z furniture: j_king: why don't you use SBCL? 2015-07-24T15:06:18Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-24T15:06:27Z j_king: furniture: I develop primarily on OS X and appreciate Clozure's Obj-C/Cocoa bindings, faster interpreter, etc. 2015-07-24T15:07:11Z stupidpioneers: he's probably talking about the field of reals 2015-07-24T15:07:22Z stupidpioneers: mr nitpicky 2015-07-24T15:08:04Z furniture: j_king: good to know :) 2015-07-24T15:09:22Z furniture: it seems to me that Racket is a "C++" in Lisps? does anybody has same feelings? 2015-07-24T15:09:44Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T15:09:56Z dlowe: You might try #racket or ##lisp for people who are interested in Racket 2015-07-24T15:09:59Z ghard: Have we been feeding the trolls again? ;) 2015-07-24T15:10:28Z j_king: I haven't. I only really care about discussing CL. 2015-07-24T15:10:29Z dlowe: Just pushing for a higher quality troll 2015-07-24T15:10:59Z j_king: and occasionally emacs/tooling 2015-07-24T15:12:20Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:12:21Z happy-dude quit 2015-07-24T15:12:33Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:15:50Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-24T15:16:30Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T15:19:26Z furniture: it seems to me that all CL implementations will be abandoned in near 5-10 years. does anybody feels like me? 2015-07-24T15:19:31Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:21:42Z fe[nl]ix has set mode +b *!4f6f6480@*.100.128 2015-07-24T15:21:42Z furniture [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (furniture) 2015-07-24T15:23:56Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T15:25:28Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:25:45Z hocwp quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-24T15:25:46Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T15:27:52Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:30:15Z gingerale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T15:30:33Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:31:51Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:32:00Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:35:46Z jackdaniel: I really think, that #lisp should think about voicing only registered users 2015-07-24T15:36:23Z jebes: is that actually that much of a problem? 2015-07-24T15:36:54Z jackdaniel: same troll every two days trying to make offtop and talking blurbs? For me - very yes 2015-07-24T15:37:34Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T15:38:10Z jebes: i've only been here two days, sooo... :) 2015-07-24T15:39:04Z ToeTag: People have told me things like "lisp is better for 'solving-the-problem-as-you-go" kind of development. If that is agreed, is it because of something unique to lisp, or just to functional programming? 2015-07-24T15:40:10Z jebes: i attribute it mostly to lisp macros, which is one reason I'm not too big of a fan of lisp1's... 2015-07-24T15:40:56Z dlowe: I think it's more about image-based development. Smalltalk shares that reputation, and it's image-based 2015-07-24T15:40:57Z H4ns: ToeTag: the interactive experience of the repl and lisp's dynamic, non-strict structure are the reason for that. 2015-07-24T15:41:09Z ToeTag: jebes, meaning like that someone could just change a macro, saving them time from having to do otherwise necessary huge refactoring / redesign? 2015-07-24T15:42:02Z ToeTag: H4ns, okay interesting 2015-07-24T15:42:54Z ToeTag: H4ns, is that to say that it's easier to *change* structure/design of a larger system, than maybe in something like Java 2015-07-24T15:43:18Z ToeTag: I know in java I have to spend a ton of time ahead of programming to figure out overall design 2015-07-24T15:46:14Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:46:18Z remi`bd: yes, Java code is very static 2015-07-24T15:46:23Z H4ns: ToeTag: yes - in lisp, it is possible to explore and and change on the go. 2015-07-24T15:46:26Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T15:46:33Z remi`bd: but it’s also due to the object oriented design 2015-07-24T15:46:44Z remi`bd: well, I mean java’s object orientation 2015-07-24T15:46:46Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:46:52Z H4ns: ToeTag: refactoring - to me - is often not a separate activity, but something that i do while writing code. 2015-07-24T15:50:12Z k-stz: the architecture still needs to be planned ahead, no programming language can fix that on-the-go 2015-07-24T15:50:53Z k-stz: I'd stress that prototyping is easy 2015-07-24T15:51:17Z ToeTag: I don't usually work on large systems, and in most of my programming i try to impose a fake 'functional' style where as much as I can I try to utilize methods/functions that only behave as a function (input/output) and don't modify any global state. Or that specific functions only modify state 2015-07-24T15:51:33Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T15:51:53Z ToeTag: I try to keep things modular, and I was just wondering if that is the same sort of idea that people are talking about when they say lisp is better for this kind of "figure it out as you go" 2015-07-24T15:51:57Z ToeTag: that i keep hearing about 2015-07-24T15:52:43Z k-stz: first of: lisp doesn't force or necessarily encourage the functional, no sideffect, style 2015-07-24T15:53:23Z superancetre quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T15:53:27Z k-stz: Keeping things modular just sounds like a good idea in general 2015-07-24T15:53:44Z mlrutherford joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:53:48Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-24T15:54:27Z ToeTag: right right - cool thanks for the input all 2015-07-24T15:55:39Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-24T15:55:52Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-24T15:56:04Z k-stz: lisp-1 vs lisp-2 macros, argh, I need to read the arguments in that paper again 2015-07-24T15:57:16Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T15:58:44Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-24T15:59:02Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T16:01:00Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:03:04Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-24T16:04:37Z duggiefresh quit 2015-07-24T16:05:06Z superancetre joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:07:14Z superancetre quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-24T16:08:30Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-24T16:08:56Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T16:09:08Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:10:45Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-24T16:10:46Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:11:08Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2015-07-24T16:12:36Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:13:02Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-24T16:13:21Z pjb: jackdaniel: that could be done, in #lisp, nowadays we have ##lisp, #lispcafe, #clnoobs for newbies… 2015-07-24T16:13:40Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:15:09Z ziocroc quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-24T16:15:12Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-24T16:15:24Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:17:03Z theos: hey beach 2015-07-24T16:17:41Z pjb: ToeTag: have a look at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/oGmha6PbAD4/kmpG51wjJ6gJ 2015-07-24T16:19:30Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:19:57Z pjb: ToeTag: the figuring out as you go comes from the genericity of most lisp function. Since you don't declare types statically, that means that you can change the type of objects used by your functions without having to modify your functions at all. Therefore you can start writing code processing anything, let's say lists of symbols, and later when you have a more precise idea of the type of your data, you can define classes or any ty 2015-07-24T16:19:57Z pjb: you need, and your code will still work as well. 2015-07-24T16:20:06Z Akshay quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T16:20:16Z pjb: k-stz: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 2015-07-24T16:20:55Z ToeTag: pjb, ah okay very interesting 2015-07-24T16:21:12Z ToeTag: in lisp a 'symbol' is like a "name" of some entity, right? 2015-07-24T16:21:53Z pjb: And of course, you an improve the genericity by avoiding type imposing operators such as gethash, aref, nth, and using instead icecream-named child-at or whatever your abstraction is. 2015-07-24T16:22:10Z pjb: ToeTag: yes, you can use symbols to name things. 2015-07-24T16:22:23Z pjb: In general, symbols designate concepts or abstractions. 2015-07-24T16:22:38Z mlrutherford quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T16:22:40Z ToeTag: great thanks 2015-07-24T16:22:59Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T16:23:43Z pjb: (defun mix-colors (a b) (case a (red (case b (red 'red) (green 'yellow) (blue 'magenta))) (green (case b (red 'yellow) (green 'green) (blue 'cyan))) (blue (case b (red 'magenta) (green 'cyan) (blue 'blue))))) 2015-07-24T16:23:54Z pjb: (mix-colors 'red 'green) --> yellow; concepts! 2015-07-24T16:24:53Z ToeTag: I see what you're saying 2015-07-24T16:25:01Z ToeTag: we don't even know/care what they represent yet, right? 2015-07-24T16:25:12Z pjb: well, here they represent colors. 2015-07-24T16:25:29Z pjb: Perhaps later you will represent colors as vectors r,g,b or as structures or clos objects? 2015-07-24T16:25:34Z ToeTag: okay, so rather, we don't know/care how they are represented internally 2015-07-24T16:25:36Z ToeTag: ah yes 2015-07-24T16:25:40Z ToeTag: wow very cool 2015-07-24T16:25:56Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:26:15Z ToeTag: that's neat ...I dont' think python would let me do that...or it it would I don't know how to 2015-07-24T16:26:21Z pjb: This is what is explained and taught in sicp: how to build abstractions and use them to good effect in programs. 2015-07-24T16:26:43Z ToeTag: Yeah I like that style of problem solving 2015-07-24T16:26:49Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:26:52Z ToeTag: it's like "i'll figure out how to represent red later" 2015-07-24T16:26:59Z ToeTag: deferring the actual details until later 2015-07-24T16:27:20Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-24T16:27:35Z k-stz: pjb: yes, i already read that paper, I bet I forgot the argument for lisp2 macros because i'm not coding in a lisp1 2015-07-24T16:27:58Z pjb: Since you wanted to read it again, I thought the url would come handy. 2015-07-24T16:28:20Z k-stz: already had it open, but thanks 2015-07-24T16:28:35Z rick-mon` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T16:29:19Z k-stz: nice paper, finally taught me how that cl symbols are just datastructures 2015-07-24T16:32:10Z nathan joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:34:04Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:34:13Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:36:32Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T16:37:29Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:44:16Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:44:30Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-24T16:45:16Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-24T16:45:17Z yenda- joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:45:36Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:51:14Z jebes: oh yeah, sf is back up 2015-07-24T16:53:54Z knosys joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:55:13Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:55:23Z knosys quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-24T16:56:26Z ssake quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T16:56:31Z scharan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-07-24T16:56:47Z knosys joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:57:04Z knosys quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-24T16:57:35Z ToeTag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T16:57:39Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:58:24Z knosys joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:58:31Z knosys quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-24T16:59:27Z knosys joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:59:34Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-24T16:59:45Z knosys quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-24T17:00:24Z developernotes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-24T17:04:20Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T17:04:47Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-24T17:08:08Z jackdaniel: pjb: #lisp is only channel I think this would improve UX ;-) 2015-07-24T17:08:34Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T17:08:46Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T17:09:05Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T17:11:44Z k-stz: scheme macros are always hygienic right? That is no symbol caputre can occur 2015-07-24T17:11:47Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T17:11:55Z jackdaniel: breaking the hygiene is possible 2015-07-24T17:12:09Z jackdaniel: but don't know details :D 2015-07-24T17:14:10Z k-stz: that lisp-1 vs 2 papers states that lisp-2 is better in the instance that macro parameters used in a function position can't be captured: (lambda (list) (list 1 2)) 2015-07-24T17:14:55Z k-stz: assuming scheme one is hyginic I guess it doesn't have this disadvantage 2015-07-24T17:15:07Z k-stz: "scheme one" wow freudian slip much 2015-07-24T17:15:14Z mc40 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-24T17:15:46Z nathan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T17:16:27Z k-stz: oop is supposed to be (defmacro foo (list) `(list 1 2)) 2015-07-24T17:16:38Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-24T17:19:11Z jebes: jackdaniel: anaphoric (name capturing) macros are extremely powerful 2015-07-24T17:19:35Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T17:19:46Z jebes: for example: (defmacro alambda ((&rest args) &body body) `(labels ((self ,args , 2015-07-24T17:19:53Z jebes: ,@body)) #'self)) 2015-07-24T17:19:54Z jackdaniel: but this list shadows list lexical scope, imagine (defmacro foo (list &body body) `(list 1 2) ,@body)) ; (foo 'blah list blah2) 2015-07-24T17:20:04Z jackdaniel: jebes: I'm aware of this fact 2015-07-24T17:20:15Z jackdaniel: I'm big fan of anaphoras in fact 2015-07-24T17:20:40Z jackdaniel: and CL style macros 2015-07-24T17:20:42Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-24T17:20:58Z jebes: :) 2015-07-24T17:21:04Z jebes: i wasn't until I read on lisp and LoL 2015-07-24T17:21:06Z jebes: great books 2015-07-24T17:21:32Z jackdaniel didn't read let-over-lambda yet 2015-07-24T17:21:49Z jebes: Its a bit high and mighty, but its content is pretty damn good 2015-07-24T17:22:04Z jackdaniel: well, I've nitpicked a few chapters :p 2015-07-24T17:22:18Z jackdaniel: s/nitpicked/peaked/ 2015-07-24T17:23:00Z jackdaniel: but I better like when anaphoras start with ^, so they are easy to see and won't mix with "normal" variables 2015-07-24T17:23:16Z jebes: oh, that's a good idea 2015-07-24T17:23:18Z jackdaniel: so for instance (^if (some-gritty-whatever) ^it 'blah) 2015-07-24T17:23:55Z jebes: going to steal that :) 2015-07-24T17:24:34Z jackdaniel: more, what isn't implemented in package anaphora, but would be nice, would be character macro, so you can nest stuff, like (^if (s-g-w) (^if (s-g-w-2) ^it ^^it) 'blah) 2015-07-24T17:25:11Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T17:25:14Z jackdaniel: but it might be considered gross ;) go ahead, steal and share :) 2015-07-24T17:25:16Z jebes: a better solution for something like that is to write a macro over cond 2015-07-24T17:25:28Z jebes: (cond ((p1) ^it)) 2015-07-24T17:25:54Z jackdaniel: yes, I've just pulled example out of the hat, I had sensible use-case for such thing 2015-07-24T17:25:59Z jackdaniel: but don't remember right now 2015-07-24T17:26:09Z jebes: i can see quite a lot of use for it] 2015-07-24T17:26:31Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-24T17:28:13Z jebes: or just use if-let :) 2015-07-24T17:29:00Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T17:29:37Z jackdaniel: love when someone sends me e-mails in html, they are so cryptic I don't feel obligation to read them 2015-07-24T17:29:40Z k-stz: jackdaniel: how do you mean it shadows the lexical scope? In your example body doesn't work, did you mean `(list 1 2 ,@body) ? 2015-07-24T17:29:59Z jackdaniel: sec, I'll paste example which actually works 2015-07-24T17:30:44Z TOAA quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-24T17:31:51Z lpaste_: jebes pasted “Anaphoric Cond” at http://lpaste.net/137269 2015-07-24T17:32:03Z jebes: Decided to whip up that cond macro 2015-07-24T17:32:26Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T17:32:37Z jackdaniel: k-stz: I mean that http://paste.lisp.org/display/152216 , it might be easily avoided using with-gensyms tough 2015-07-24T17:33:26Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-24T17:34:21Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T17:35:17Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-24T17:36:57Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T17:37:16Z jackdaniel: jebes: I meant something else, like being capable to reach anaphoras outside your scope, if such exist 2015-07-24T17:37:58Z k-stz: jackdaniel: hm, I fail to see the connectin. I just meant to say that the 'list' symbol in the function-position can't be captured (defmacro foo (list) `(list)) <- uncatchable by the macro parameter 2015-07-24T17:38:25Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-24T17:38:28Z pjb: k-stz: the thing with lisp macro is that they're "obvious" and trivia to implement, once you have sexps. They're 4-years obvious. (lisp started to spread in 1960, macros were invented in 1964). 2015-07-24T17:38:32Z cataska_ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T17:38:35Z jackdaniel: well, I tought you were comparing hygienic and non-hygienic macros 2015-07-24T17:39:09Z jebes: jackdaniel: that would be much more difficult... :) 2015-07-24T17:39:23Z k-stz: I was making that comparison because in a hygienic macro enforced by scheme the argument is irrelevant. 2015-07-24T17:39:23Z jackdaniel: hm, I have something similar on my toolbox 2015-07-24T17:39:51Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T17:40:03Z jackdaniel: but with function literals - you can reach literal from outer scope, I'll transform it into scoped aif if you'll wait a few minutes 2015-07-24T17:40:34Z pjb: jebes: (cond ((p1))) does already that. 2015-07-24T17:43:51Z jebes: pjb: oh cool, didn't know taht 2015-07-24T17:43:56Z jebes: s/taht/that 2015-07-24T17:44:23Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-24T17:44:44Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-24T17:44:55Z Jesin joined 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2015-07-24T20:44:44Z jebes: does ./install.sh --fancy not work? 2015-07-24T20:44:53Z eudoxia: but why sbcl specifically and not a more windows-friendly impl like CCL? 2015-07-24T20:45:26Z DeadTrickster: do I need cygwin? 2015-07-24T20:45:31Z jebes: Most likely. 2015-07-24T20:45:34Z eudoxia: to run make, i think 2015-07-24T20:45:51Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, because I'm sbcl funboy :-) 2015-07-24T20:45:57Z eudoxia: heh 2015-07-24T20:46:15Z jebes: talking about make, I am trying to get right of all this auto* garbage from clisp... it isn't going well 2015-07-24T20:46:47Z jebes: s/right/rid 2015-07-24T20:47:01Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T20:47:48Z cluck quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-24T20:48:55Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-24T20:49:58Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T20:55:03Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-24T20:56:43Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-24T20:57:45Z squiddo joined #lisp 2015-07-24T20:58:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-24T20:58:20Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-24T20:59:08Z ggole quit 2015-07-24T20:59:20Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:00:13Z White_Flame: beyond mocl and LispWorks, are there other CLs that are up & running for Android yet? 2015-07-24T21:02:31Z jebes: i think sbcl.... but i'm not 100% sure 2015-07-24T21:02:42Z jebes: ABCL probably does since its java 2015-07-24T21:02:57Z DeadTrickster: so... 2015-07-24T21:03:01Z DeadTrickster: :-) 2015-07-24T21:03:31Z DeadTrickster: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 5980(tid 12016944): 2015-07-24T21:03:31Z DeadTrickster: can't find core file at C:Program Files (x86)/sbcl/lib/sbcl//sbcl.core 2015-07-24T21:03:41Z White_Flame: jebes: yeah, to my last understanding, which is a while ago, some people were starting to get SBCL to run on a terminal in android, which wouldn't really directly interface with apps. 2015-07-24T21:03:42Z DeadTrickster: installed x64 version 2015-07-24T21:04:11Z jebes: Is where SBCL_HOME variable set properly, DeadTrickster? 2015-07-24T21:04:12Z White_Flame: jebes: I'll check on ABCL. Java's not quite Dalvik, so we'll see 2015-07-24T21:04:37Z DeadTrickster: jebes, no idea, used msi installed from sbcl.org 2015-07-24T21:04:46Z DeadTrickster: I suppose it should set it 2015-07-24T21:04:58Z DeadTrickster: installer should set variable 2015-07-24T21:05:01Z DeadTrickster: let me check 2015-07-24T21:05:05Z nyef: Looks like some amount of path mangling going on there. 2015-07-24T21:05:28Z nyef: Shouldn't there be something just after the colon, before Program Files? 2015-07-24T21:05:36Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:05:57Z White_Flame: could also be basic string mangling of backslash escape codes 2015-07-24T21:06:02Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-24T21:06:16Z White_Flame: if it was originally C:\Program\ Files\ (x86)/sbcl/ ... 2015-07-24T21:06:19Z gendl_ quit (Quit: gendl_) 2015-07-24T21:06:26Z White_Flame: or some variant thereof 2015-07-24T21:06:48Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:06:49Z DeadTrickster: echo %SBCL_HOME% prints nothing useful 2015-07-24T21:06:57Z White_Flame: did you start a new shell since you installed? 2015-07-24T21:07:07Z DeadTrickster: yep 2015-07-24T21:07:14Z quasus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T21:07:35Z nyef: Yes, that's what I'm saying. Isn't that path a bit mangled? 2015-07-24T21:08:03Z DeadTrickster: also why it performs search in (x86) variant, I installed x64 version 2015-07-24T21:08:27Z DeadTrickster: and it indeed installed in just Program Files 2015-07-24T21:09:01Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T21:10:39Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-24T21:10:53Z antoszka: White_Flame: I think some people are having some success running ecl (I even think there's an ecl-based demo repl in the play store). 2015-07-24T21:11:21Z antoszka: White_Flame: Though I've no idea how much would have been done towards integrating with the native "app" ecosystem on Android. 2015-07-24T21:11:39Z White_Flame: huh, interesting. Didn't ECL effectively die and a fork took it over? 2015-07-24T21:11:58Z antoszka: Not that I know of ;) 2015-07-24T21:12:16Z antoszka: jackdaniel: ^ know anything about ecl on android? 2015-07-24T21:12:26Z PuercoPop: but there is an active fork of ecl, mkcl. 2015-07-24T21:12:33Z antoszka: White_Flame: I might be confusing things badly, tired and moving flats. 2015-07-24T21:12:55Z White_Flame: I've been heads-down for a long time on some particulars, so I'm not too up on the ecosystem at large 2015-07-24T21:13:00Z antoszka: Well, I think jackdaniel has been actively developing ecl recently as well, so I'd say that fork is active too :) 2015-07-24T21:13:58Z PuercoPop: iiuc jackdaniel is the new maintainer of ECL, which hasn't died. 2015-07-24T21:14:23Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:17:48Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-24T21:19:14Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:21:42Z ahungry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-24T21:22:11Z jfowler joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:31:06Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:31:08Z jan-t joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:31:19Z Grue` joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:31:19Z newcup quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-24T21:32:46Z squiddo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T21:35:15Z newcup joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:35:40Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-24T21:37:05Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-24T21:42:28Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T21:43:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:45:32Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T21:45:56Z dmiles_akf joined #lisp 2015-07-24T21:48:31Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T21:49:36Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-24T21:51:07Z spew quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-24T21:52:22Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-24T21:54:12Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T21:54:38Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-24T21:57:09Z pjb: Assuming software has died is the dumbest thing of the world. Apple has been dying ever years since 1974… 2015-07-24T21:58:38Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-24T22:00:49Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:00:51Z White_Flame: I thought there were some announcements to that effect, so just trying to reconfirm the status of things 2015-07-24T22:01:14Z Ettore1 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:01:22Z Ettore quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T22:02:48Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-24T22:02:51Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-24T22:04:05Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T22:04:11Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:07:32Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-24T22:08:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T22:11:10Z p_l: White_Flame: a fork I believe claimed to take over, didn't go anywhere far, meanwhile ECL got new wind 2015-07-24T22:12:19Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: you mean mkcl ? 2015-07-24T22:13:02Z p_l: I think so 2015-07-24T22:13:26Z p_l: I never have seen much out of it - not assuming it's dead, just nowhere as visible as ECL 2015-07-24T22:14:38Z hegel joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:14:40Z lisper29 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T22:15:04Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:15:36Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:16:11Z akkad: mocl use mkcl? 2015-07-24T22:17:08Z p_l: akkad: never seen such claim 2015-07-24T22:17:13Z fe[nl]ix: no, the names are just similar 2015-07-24T22:17:24Z fe[nl]ix: the initials 2015-07-24T22:17:25Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T22:17:39Z fe[nl]ix: Mobile-Oriented vs. ManKai 2015-07-24T22:17:54Z Shinmera: White_Flame: SBCL on ARM doesn't have threads yet and an ARM64 port has yet to be begun, iirc. 2015-07-24T22:18:59Z p_l: Shinmera: and SBCL still doesn't compile to a relocatable shared library, so there's not much use for it on plain android (and non-plain in this case implies a normal linux distro in chroot) 2015-07-24T22:19:06Z Shinmera: White_Flame: ECL runs on ARM/Android, you can even get an app with it: Maxima! 2015-07-24T22:19:16Z Shinmera: White_Flame: Just search the play store for it 2015-07-24T22:19:49Z Shinmera: p_l: Well you could run it as a subprocess, but then you run into the issue of having your SBCL randomly terminated. 2015-07-24T22:19:51Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-07-24T22:20:20Z p_l: Shinmera: and lack of access to any APIs other than ones you provide to it over IPC bridge or SL4A framework 2015-07-24T22:22:44Z Shinmera: Since everything is web based nowadays anyway you could also run your SBCL on a server and call it 'Cloud based' :^) 2015-07-24T22:23:19Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:23:39Z p_l: Butt based 2015-07-24T22:24:08Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:24:29Z White_Flame: Shinmera: yeah, that's my preference actually. Looking up some stuff for somebody else who wants to learn & integrate lisp on an android device 2015-07-24T22:24:56Z White_Flame: I prefer the browser interface as the least-horrible fine-grained UI 2015-07-24T22:25:10Z White_Flame: at least for the types of analysis presentations I tend to do 2015-07-24T22:26:02Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:27:27Z aeth: I have an idea. We could put together a network of servers that use some common language(s) and call it the World Wide Cloud. 2015-07-24T22:27:50Z aeth: Maybe even link everything with hypertext. 2015-07-24T22:28:00Z p_l: aeth: and then we might add some client-side scripting and presentation details and make it horrible for everyone! 2015-07-24T22:28:12Z jan-t quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-24T22:28:48Z White_Flame: aeth: no, you don't want to design such a system up front. You want to start with something very simple, then keep bolting on completely unrelated features without breaking backwards compatibility for maximum pain! 2015-07-24T22:29:00Z aeth: p_l: And that's the fundamental weakness of the web. The defaults are terrible so everyone has to do too much, in very different, incompatible ways. 2015-07-24T22:29:22Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:29:30Z p_l: aeth: no. The defaults work quite well, they just don't look so nice etc. 2015-07-24T22:29:35Z White_Flame: all UIs suck, but html+css in their latest incarnations are getting better 2015-07-24T22:29:44Z White_Flame: completely ignoring legacy stuff 2015-07-24T22:29:56Z p_l: White_Flame: yeah, it only takes 7MBs to download to read 600 words... 2015-07-24T22:30:28Z p_l: better not count the amount of requests involved 2015-07-24T22:30:56Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:30:56Z White_Flame: I'm not talking about garbage that other people write 2015-07-24T22:31:04Z White_Flame: just from-scratch pages and application front ends 2015-07-24T22:31:08Z p_l: sometimes visiting some older/niche japanese sites is comforting, the only issue is from time to time few big images 2015-07-24T22:31:28Z aeth: White_Flame: The web's weakness is well known. It doesn't separate data from presentation enough. That's what the n attempts at "semantic web", etc. are for 2015-07-24T22:31:39Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-24T22:31:48Z p_l: White_Flame: like the ones that explode browsers to take majority of 16GB memory space by implementing an application in HTML and JS 2015-07-24T22:32:12Z aeth: You can't really fix fundamental design flaws of the web. Too much content out there. 2015-07-24T22:32:13Z p_l: tbh, I miss something like Delphi. It was the last time I enjoyed making a GUI 2015-07-24T22:32:15Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:32:37Z White_Flame: p_l: single page apps are kind of nice, if architected well 2015-07-24T22:32:49Z White_Flame: but too much is built on just bolting on hack after hack 2015-07-24T22:32:50Z aeth: You can't break backwards compatability too because there are too many sites. 2015-07-24T22:33:04Z p_l: aeth: new stuff isn't better 2015-07-24T22:33:19Z p_l: like APIs that tell you "maybe" in response to a query whether something is available 2015-07-24T22:33:25Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T22:33:37Z aeth: Depends. I think webm's an improvement over flash for video. 2015-07-24T22:33:53Z p_l: also, HTTP is significant part of destroying end-to-end network connectivity 2015-07-24T22:34:08Z White_Flame: I wouldn't want to write a UI like this in anything but HTML, given the options out there: https://i.imgur.com/C8DIdKy.png 2015-07-24T22:34:24Z White_Flame: fully interactive, clickable individual elements, etc 2015-07-24T22:34:38Z White_Flame: (and of course, Lisp-backed intelligence on the server side ;) ) 2015-07-24T22:35:09Z p_l: White_Flame: I think WPF beats it ;) and better not mention CLIM in terms of "everything clickable" 2015-07-24T22:35:40Z p_l: (though fully using OLE/DCOM stuff on windows could actually come close in places to Genera 2015-07-24T22:35:54Z White_Flame: yeah, I haven't used CLIM, but it appears to me that dynamic, javascript-driven HTML is similar in broad concept 2015-07-24T22:35:59Z p_l: nope 2015-07-24T22:36:26Z p_l: unless maybe deep in implementation details of a CLIM implementation 2015-07-24T22:36:30Z dim: p_l: do you prefer delphi or clim? 2015-07-24T22:36:33Z akkad: nice 2015-07-24T22:36:37Z aeth: White_Flame: I like the concept of html+css but imo the execution is terrible. Something like YAML would've been much betrer than HTML for the content part of the web. Minimal, mostly just the text, mixed in with e.g. Markdown. 2015-07-24T22:36:41Z aeth: XML is evil. 2015-07-24T22:36:44Z akkad: white_flame: nice 2015-07-24T22:36:45Z p_l: dim: If I had working CLIM... :D 2015-07-24T22:36:58Z akkad: white_flame does this decode bins? like objdump -D? 2015-07-24T22:37:16Z White_Flame: the public-facing one at that URL is just a tracing disassembler, taking bins & disk images 2015-07-24T22:37:25Z White_Flame: 100% client-side javascript 2015-07-24T22:37:32Z akkad: nice 2015-07-24T22:37:41Z White_Flame: the one I have in private uses a Lisp-based knowledge engine to perform better automated reverse engineering 2015-07-24T22:37:48Z akkad: o|O 2015-07-24T22:38:17Z akkad: been trying to use CL to backend my ada pro clone in emacs 2015-07-24T22:38:18Z White_Flame: hence the "UI Test" in the title. I tacked on a simple tracing disassembler just to test it easier, but it's handy enough to be made public 2015-07-24T22:38:50Z White_Flame: it's certainly in unstable testing, though 2015-07-24T22:38:55Z jebes: and then people like cudder claim they have decompilier that could ruin the industry if released... 2015-07-24T22:38:59Z dim: akkad: would you recommand some resources to learn proper js? 2015-07-24T22:39:10Z akkad is a js idiot 2015-07-24T22:39:12Z jebes: dim: don't. 2015-07-24T22:39:29Z White_Flame: dim: look at the new ES6 tutorials, forget old javascript 2015-07-24T22:39:42Z jebes: es6 feels like its failing like C++ failed 2015-07-24T22:39:57Z akkad: one prays wasm takes over 2015-07-24T22:40:03Z aeth: Ironically people now want C++ in browsers instead of JavaScript. Trading one bad approach for another. 2015-07-24T22:40:26Z aeth: Wasm won't be good until garbage collection works. It's 2015. RAM is cheap. 2015-07-24T22:40:39Z jebes: I could understand Ruby, Python, Lua... 2015-07-24T22:40:41Z jebes: but C++? WHY? 2015-07-24T22:40:46Z dim: White_Flame: well the very small amount of js I'm doing is using jquery and other higher level abstractions anyways (d3js, highcharts, bootstrap and things) 2015-07-24T22:40:50Z p_l: sometimes I think Java applets were the good idea, just smothered shortly after it launched 2015-07-24T22:41:03Z aeth: Because C++ is a Serious Language for Real Programmers. 2015-07-24T22:41:06Z White_Flame: dim: that's fine. You'll glean enough knowledge as you go, if you have experience in other languages 2015-07-24T22:41:16Z aeth: C++ in browser will fix everything 2015-07-24T22:41:31Z dim: White_Flame: it's not about the language itself but how to use it, how to desin a form with background running to fetch data, dynamic presentation in the webpage, and still be able to properly manage errors from the backend, etc 2015-07-24T22:42:01Z White_Flame: dim: and that's the problem with JS. Everybody and their dog writes simple, underpowered libs to do such for their own projects, and releases those tools 2015-07-24T22:42:04Z dim: practical example: see pgcharts and the problem I have when the SQL query is wrong 2015-07-24T22:42:12Z vrrm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T22:42:25Z White_Flame: so JS infrastructure sucks 2015-07-24T22:42:40Z nell joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:42:42Z jebes: I'd go even further and say web infrastructure sucks 2015-07-24T22:42:52Z jebes: Hell, I'd probably go all the way to software infrastructure sucks :P 2015-07-24T22:42:54Z White_Flame: part of the problem is that "web development" never takes "software development" seriously enough 2015-07-24T22:43:02Z dim: I don't want to have to care that it sucks, I'd like to have a simple enough guide to follow that when I do, the problem doesn't exists 2015-07-24T22:43:04Z White_Flame: jebes: I'd agree 2015-07-24T22:43:19Z dim: the problem has been solved, I want to know how, and I don't want to spend a week on it ;-) 2015-07-24T22:43:26Z White_Flame: dim: there's no guide to that particular usage scenario, with marrying into a particular tech that won't do everything fo ryou 2015-07-24T22:43:29Z dim: any tips? a good RTFM link? 2015-07-24T22:43:32Z aeth: Well if you want to see what HTML/CSS/JS lacks look at what frameworks offer. Mostly ways to compile more useful things to HTML or CSS or JS. 2015-07-24T22:43:46Z dim: White_Flame: yeah, hence calling that an example 2015-07-24T22:43:46Z White_Flame: dim: my frameworks have been custom to our servers, so I'm not the best to ask about more standard approaches 2015-07-24T22:44:03Z akkad: White_Flame: are any of the decompiler portions in lisp? and or publicly available? 2015-07-24T22:44:12Z White_Flame: yes, and no 2015-07-24T22:44:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:44:18Z dim: White_Flame: the general approach I think is called AJAX and I fail to do error handling properly, I should look into that 2015-07-24T22:44:38Z dim: anyways, time to sleep here, see you! 2015-07-24T22:45:01Z White_Flame: akkad: to be clear, a (mostly classical) AI platofrm written in Lisp, on which reverse engineering knowledge is implemented 2015-07-24T22:45:02Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-24T22:45:21Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:45:23Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T22:45:47Z jebes: sounds like my scheduling platform I'm building 2015-07-24T22:45:57Z jebes: mostly classical AI in prolog with some scheduling knowledge thrown in 2015-07-24T22:46:34Z ToeTag: Using sbcl/slime on Linux - if I have a REPL session and I want to save the state of that 'session', is (save-lisp-and-die) a good way to capture everything for later use? 2015-07-24T22:46:58Z jebes: toetag: as far as I know, yes. 2015-07-24T22:47:14Z White_Flame: that's what it's there for 2015-07-24T22:47:52Z White_Flame: although I would recommend ensuring your environment is rebuildable from scratch, instead of trying to preserve the transient state you've built up 2015-07-24T22:48:42Z ToeTag: right - i'm just thinking of defined functions, primarily 2015-07-24T22:49:46Z White_Flame: I define simple loader calls inside .sbclrc, so that I can say ($PROJNAME) and everything loads up easily depending on what I'm doing 2015-07-24T22:50:17Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:50:34Z ToeTag: nice, if I don't have that, is (load "path/to/file") all i need to do to load my saved core image 2015-07-24T22:50:56Z dfox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T22:51:43Z White_Flame: I believe it's a cmdline option, but I'm not sure. I don't use that feature except to deploy executables 2015-07-24T22:52:07Z White_Flame: in my thinking, in order to restore an entire environment, you don't really do it from inside an already running environemnt 2015-07-24T22:52:11Z White_Flame: but I don't know if sbcl supports that 2015-07-24T22:53:10Z ToeTag: yeah that's what I was thinking about as well - i'll keep looking into it 2015-07-24T22:53:46Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:53:49Z akersof quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-24T22:53:59Z White_Flame: sbcl --core <corefilename> 2015-07-24T22:54:17Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T22:54:20Z White_Flame: I don't know how that interacts with SLIME though, since the sockets will be broken 2015-07-24T22:54:23Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-24T22:56:22Z ToeTag: White_Flame, If you're open to sharing - what is your workflow like if you are working on a project and wanting to interact with it as you go? Just keep reloading the source file in the REPL after you make changes? 2015-07-24T22:56:36Z White_Flame: I use SLIME 2015-07-24T22:56:47Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-24T22:56:54Z White_Flame: whenever major changes are made, like redefining a macro or renaming a set of functions, I tend to restart & rebuild from scratch 2015-07-24T22:57:07Z ToeTag: ah okay 2015-07-24T22:57:44Z White_Flame: to deploy an executable, that's done from the shell, where I tell sbcl to load everything & run the save-lisp-and-die non-interactively, for best repeatability 2015-07-24T22:58:05Z White_Flame: there are tools to do such nowadays, but we built our own 2015-07-24T22:58:17Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T23:01:47Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-24T23:08:18Z White_Flame: ToeTag: also, if you haven't started using them, you should create an ASDF definition for your project, and also use Quicklisp to pull it in and any dependent libraries 2015-07-24T23:08:57Z White_Flame: using Lisp without SLIME and QuickLisp is like trying to use Java without Eclipse 2015-07-24T23:09:34Z kristof: Eclipse and Maven/Gradle 2015-07-24T23:09:53Z dfox joined #lisp 2015-07-24T23:09:57Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-24T23:11:23Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-24T23:13:00Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-24T23:15:15Z ipmonger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T23:15:24Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-24T23:16:07Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-24T23:16:16Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-24T23:16:51Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-24T23:16:51Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-24T23:17:02Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-24T23:17:30Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-24T23:17:32Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-24T23:19:11Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-24T23:19:49Z voidlily joined 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2015-07-25T01:21:33Z janugus: Should I Learn Programming With SICP Or Python? 2015-07-25T01:22:55Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-25T01:23:56Z nell: MIT switched their curriculum to python 2015-07-25T01:26:54Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T01:27:54Z janugus: nell: But how does their new curriculum compare to the SICP Scheme Combo? 2015-07-25T01:29:14Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-25T01:30:18Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-25T01:33:52Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T01:36:01Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-25T01:41:40Z ahungry joined #lisp 2015-07-25T01:42:32Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-25T01:42:33Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-25T01:43:38Z jebes: I loved SICP 2015-07-25T01:43:58Z jebes: i don't think any thing out there really teaches programming nearly as well as it does 2015-07-25T01:46:07Z jesseman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T01:47:46Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-07-25T01:54:32Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T01:55:02Z janugus quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-25T01:55:35Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-25T01:55:51Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T01:57:53Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:00:02Z pjb: nell: So you're here to promote python. 2015-07-25T02:01:14Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:01:19Z nell: No 2015-07-25T02:04:40Z pjb: Then why didn't tell janugus to learn sicp and to get Common Lisp from http://cliki.net/Getting+Started; That's all they want to hear! 2015-07-25T02:04:52Z pjb: (otherwise they wouldn't come here, they'd go to #python). 2015-07-25T02:06:25Z streptotrichosis joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:08:01Z nell: sounds like a good bot function to have incase the question is raised again 2015-07-25T02:08:21Z nell: for the beginning mage 2015-07-25T02:08:33Z nell: having questions or concerns about where to start. 2015-07-25T02:08:40Z White_Flame: I'm not sure if SICP is good for learning programmers, or better for people who already know some reasonable programming 2015-07-25T02:09:00Z White_Flame: I read it later on, loved the applicability of the concepts to what I already knew 2015-07-25T02:09:09Z White_Flame: has anybody here actually learned from scratch with it? 2015-07-25T02:09:49Z echo-are` is now known as echo-area 2015-07-25T02:11:35Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T02:13:43Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-07-25T02:14:55Z jesseman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T02:18:52Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:19:12Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:19:55Z pjb: White_Flame: I'd tend to agree. sicp can be more effective to people who've spend some time against programming complexity. 2015-07-25T02:20:08Z pjb: White_Flame: for the same reason, I'd have newbie write an application entirely in assembler. 2015-07-25T02:20:27Z pjb: (painful, both for them and for the tutor, but that'll teach them!) 2015-07-25T02:21:48Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:22:02Z pjb: And also, while I would definitely advice newbies to start learning programming with lisp, I would still think that it might be better for them to spend 20 years, well, let's not be evil, 10 years, with the difficulties of the other programming languages before going to lisp, so they may realize the greatness of it. :-) 2015-07-25T02:23:13Z pjb: On the other hand, given how short our livetimes are, we can't expect everybody to recapitulate everything from cavemen to the space age. I'd rather have them go directly to the space age. 2015-07-25T02:29:40Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T02:31:17Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T02:31:49Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:34:46Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:35:48Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:40:14Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-25T02:41:18Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:47:28Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-25T02:47:42Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-25T02:50:11Z Beetny_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:51:00Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T02:51:13Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:52:24Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:54:03Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:55:40Z hydan: pjb: I did the former, and to this day I curse my university and myself for it. I almost quit programming altogether from constant frustration and although I finally came around to Lisp (learning, properly now), I don't make a living as a programmer any more. 2015-07-25T02:56:06Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:56:30Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-25T02:57:27Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T02:59:52Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-07-25T03:02:13Z hydan: pjb: Every day I ask myself, what if I had started with Lisp from the beginning and stuck to it instead of all the horrors of pascal, perl, php and python that I had to go through 2015-07-25T03:02:32Z hydan: but well, it is better late then never I guess (: 2015-07-25T03:04:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:04:34Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T03:05:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:06:32Z tmh_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T03:11:10Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T03:13:47Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T03:13:52Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:14:15Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:14:22Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-25T03:16:30Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-25T03:22:06Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-25T03:24:02Z nyef: So, my main computer is showing early-warning signs for the LCD panel failing. 2015-07-25T03:24:23Z nyef: Replacement cost: Stupidly high. 2015-07-25T03:24:41Z beach: What kind of computer is your main computer? 2015-07-25T03:24:55Z nyef: A Thinkpad x61 Tablet, with the SXGA display. 2015-07-25T03:25:26Z nyef: (Or is that SXGA+? Whichever it is. The higher-resolution display, not the stupid 1024x768 panel.) 2015-07-25T03:25:27Z pjb: That's recent. 2015-07-25T03:25:36Z White_Flame: 2048x1536? 2015-07-25T03:25:44Z nyef: White_Flame: Not that good. 2015-07-25T03:25:47Z White_Flame: :( 2015-07-25T03:25:56Z nyef: 1400x1050. 2015-07-25T03:26:02Z White_Flame: oh, tablet, not laptop 2015-07-25T03:27:37Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:29:20Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:29:58Z nyef: So, yes, recent. As in 2007 recent. 2015-07-25T03:30:00Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:32:29Z k_dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:33:23Z nyef: If I can get it fixed for less than $150, it's worth it. Otherwise, I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do. 2015-07-25T03:35:39Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-25T03:41:17Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T03:45:14Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:46:54Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:46:55Z kristof quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-25T03:47:10Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:47:59Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-25T03:49:54Z aeth: Is defining methods for built-in classes a bad idea? trivial example: (defmethod sum ((list list)) (reduce #'+ list)) 2015-07-25T03:50:06Z beach: It is fine. 2015-07-25T03:50:46Z aeth: Of course other data structures can also get sum, but that example's trivial on purpose. 2015-07-25T03:53:42Z gendl__ quit (Quit: gendl__) 2015-07-25T03:57:38Z kristof: aeth: What you can't do is subclass basic types. 2015-07-25T03:58:04Z aeth: I'm guessing that the different use case for defmethod vs a defun that checks for type would be that the method is useful where e.g. the sum example which can have totally different internals based on type and the defun is just an optimized function for one type and a different use case 2015-07-25T03:58:09Z nyef: kristof: Do you mean built-in types, rather than basic types? 2015-07-25T03:58:28Z kristof: nyef: I mean built-in types, yes. 2015-07-25T03:59:05Z aeth: kristof: Sort of. I've tested this in clisp, sbcl, and ecl. All don't let me subclass cons. Only clisp doesn't let me subclass sequence. iirc. 2015-07-25T03:59:13Z kristof: nyef: I had forgotten about types like array and hash map. 2015-07-25T03:59:17Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T03:59:57Z nyef: aeth: IIRC, SBCL and ECL have a user-defined sequence extension of some sort. 2015-07-25T04:00:49Z kristof: aeth: Think of defmethod as a giant defun that starts with a COND and dispatches on the most specific subtypes first. 2015-07-25T04:01:15Z beach: kristof: You mean "think of defgeneric..."? 2015-07-25T04:01:16Z kristof: aeth: defmethod is then just a broken up COND, for convenience. And that's sort of the genius of generic functions. 2015-07-25T04:01:39Z kristof: beach: I suppose I mean "think of defgeneric and all of its defmethod forms together as " 2015-07-25T04:01:48Z beach: Yeah. 2015-07-25T04:01:49Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-25T04:02:05Z kristof: And then there's filtered dispatch. And that's really cool stuff. 2015-07-25T04:02:27Z kristof: After reading the filtered dispatch paper, I realized "why would you even want generalized predicate dispatch? Filtered dispatch probably does everything you could ever want." 2015-07-25T04:02:54Z aeth: Filtered dispatch? 2015-07-25T04:05:44Z kristof: aeth: this is not the syntax, but it might make sense like (defmethod factorial (n (> 0)) (body)) 2015-07-25T04:06:09Z Oladon: kristof: You mean predicate dispatch? 2015-07-25T04:06:28Z kristof: aeth: (defmethod factorial (n (eql 1)) 1) 2015-07-25T04:07:11Z kristof: aeth: (defmethod factorial (n (< 0)) ;;throw some kind of error) 2015-07-25T04:07:31Z kristof: aeth: The runtime applies all the filters (or as many as necessary) and picks out the right method to use. 2015-07-25T04:07:35Z aeth: so basically, replacing COND 2015-07-25T04:07:44Z kristof: Basically... replacing cond entirely. 2015-07-25T04:08:10Z kristof: Oladon: http://www.p-cos.net/documents/filtered-dispatch.pdf 2015-07-25T04:08:16Z White_Flame: is there ordering established? 2015-07-25T04:08:23Z White_Flame: or must they all be non-intersecting truth tests? 2015-07-25T04:08:42Z kristof: The paper outlines it. There is no inherent ordering. 2015-07-25T04:08:43Z Oladon: kristof: I'm familiar with the paper. 2015-07-25T04:08:55Z aeth: This is one of the few relevant results on duckduckgo for 'filtered dispatch': http://www.academia.edu/10245801/Filtered_dispatch 2015-07-25T04:09:15Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-07-25T04:09:47Z kristof: White_Flame: Well okay, there is an ordering established. 2015-07-25T04:10:22Z kristof: Oladon: Well, I meant everything I said, so no, I did not mean predicate. 2015-07-25T04:10:25Z aeth: (same paper apparently) 2015-07-25T04:10:53Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T04:15:05Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-25T04:15:47Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T04:21:14Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-25T04:21:40Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-25T04:21:42Z nyef: Hrm. 1.6 GHz Core 2 Duo... Should be able to do better than that... 2015-07-25T04:23:33Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T04:26:07Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-25T04:26:14Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-25T04:27:04Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T04:28:45Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T04:31:38Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-25T04:35:10Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T04:37:24Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T04:37:58Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-25T04:39:57Z drmeister: nyef: I'm having some trouble minimally compiling (setq f x g y h z) 2015-07-25T04:40:08Z drmeister: The SETQ has to return the value of the last evaluated form. 2015-07-25T04:40:15Z nyef: clhs setq 2015-07-25T04:40:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm 2015-07-25T04:40:39Z nyef: It's serial. 2015-07-25T04:40:59Z nyef: (setq f x g y h z) => (progn (setq f x) (setq g y) (setq h z)). 2015-07-25T04:41:36Z drmeister: Right, but I can't have each (setq f x) write it's value into the result. 2015-07-25T04:41:40Z drmeister: its 2015-07-25T04:42:32Z nyef: Why not? 2015-07-25T04:42:46Z phax left #lisp 2015-07-25T04:43:04Z nyef: Alternately, do you have a bit-bucket result that you can have them write into? 2015-07-25T04:43:22Z drmeister: Because if I do that (let ((a 1) (a (progn (setq f x) (setq g a)))) --> a --> x g --> x 2015-07-25T04:43:57Z drmeister: The first (setq f x) will set x into a and the second (setq g a) will get that value. 2015-07-25T04:43:59Z nyef: Do you mean LET* ? 2015-07-25T04:44:17Z drmeister: Right LET* 2015-07-25T04:44:30Z nyef: You have two different variables named A here. 2015-07-25T04:44:40Z nyef: With slightly different scopes. 2015-07-25T04:44:49Z drmeister: (let ((a 1) (let ((a (progn (setq f x) (setq g a))))... --> a --> x g --> x 2015-07-25T04:44:59Z drmeister: I've run into this bug before. 2015-07-25T04:45:17Z nyef: ... That's not even a valid expression. 2015-07-25T04:46:28Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T04:46:28Z drmeister: Hang on 2015-07-25T04:49:01Z drmeister: Actually, I think PROGN should take care of this. 2015-07-25T04:49:19Z nyef: As long as your variable scoping doesn't trip up, yes, it should. (-: 2015-07-25T04:49:23Z drmeister: It should only return the evaluated last form. 2015-07-25T04:50:02Z nyef: Heh. Silly thought: MULTIPLE-VALUE-PROGN. 2015-07-25T04:50:44Z drmeister: SETQ only returns the first return value of the last expression. 2015-07-25T04:50:48Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-25T04:51:07Z drmeister: The primary value 2015-07-25T04:51:13Z nyef: ... That can't be right. 2015-07-25T04:51:17Z drmeister: My progn will take care of this. 2015-07-25T04:51:55Z nyef: If there's a symbol-macro involved, then SETQ devolves to SETF, and the symbol-macro can easily expand to a multiply-valued place. 2015-07-25T04:51:58Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-25T04:52:09Z jibanes: how does sbcl compares to lispworks? 2015-07-25T04:52:28Z nyef: jibanes: With EQUALP. Any lesser predicate will return NIL. 2015-07-25T04:53:51Z drmeister: clhs setq 2015-07-25T04:53:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm 2015-07-25T04:53:53Z jibanes: I see 2015-07-25T04:54:33Z drmeister: nyef: It says --> result---the primary value of the last form, or nil if no pairs were supplied. 2015-07-25T04:55:52Z lisp-noob joined #lisp 2015-07-25T04:56:09Z nyef: Interesting... I think that you may be right about the relative priority between SETQ result semantics and the use of SETF for symbol-macros. 2015-07-25T04:56:54Z White_Flame: (let ((genx x) (geny y) (genz z)) (setq f genx) (setq g geny) (setq h genz)) ? 2015-07-25T04:58:17Z White_Flame: actually, reading the CLHS page again, it does look read like full serial eval+assign. In (setq a 1 b a), I would presume b would be equal to 1 afterwards 2015-07-25T04:58:42Z White_Flame: "First form1 is evaluated and the result is stored in the variable var1, then form2 is evaluated and the result stored in var2, and so forth." 2015-07-25T04:59:48Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-25T05:01:32Z nyef: Right. Also notice the difference between SETF and PSETF. 2015-07-25T05:01:46Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-25T05:02:25Z beach: drmeister: Are you planning to do minimal compilation by transforming source to source? 2015-07-25T05:03:10Z drmeister: beach: I'm transforming the source to an AST and then analyze the AST and then convert it to LLVM-IR. 2015-07-25T05:03:12Z lisp-noob: hi all. i'm writing a language. it's compiled to lisp (sbcl). for stack traces i use (defvar *source-position* nil) and (let ((*source-position* ...)) my-lang-expr). this has severe performance penaty. any ideas to make it with minimal or no performance hit? 2015-07-25T05:03:24Z beach: drmeister: OK. 2015-07-25T05:03:26Z drmeister: I want to do enough analysis to figure out what variables need to be closed over. 2015-07-25T05:03:30Z gendl__ quit (Quit: gendl__) 2015-07-25T05:03:52Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I understand. 2015-07-25T05:04:22Z drmeister: I'll put everything else on the stack. 2015-07-25T05:04:32Z drmeister: I'm doing the miminum amount of work I need to make this work. 2015-07-25T05:04:37Z drmeister: minimum 2015-07-25T05:04:52Z drmeister: Because I know I'll never approach what Cleavir can do. I just want to speed up bootstrapping. 2015-07-25T05:05:00Z White_Flame: lisp-noob: is evaluating the value that is stored into *source-position* taking the time? 2015-07-25T05:05:14Z beach: drmeister: What do the ASTs look like? 2015-07-25T05:05:52Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: not much time but it happens a lot (for each expression, such as "1" then "2" then "1+2") and it's consing. 2015-07-25T05:06:16Z lisp-noob: the let is just (cons "string" old-value) 2015-07-25T05:06:28Z drmeister: They are STRUCTURE's implemented as (... (:type VECTOR) :named) - that's all I have at that point. 2015-07-25T05:06:34Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/jE1fxsQG/ 2015-07-25T05:06:40Z drmeister: I'm learning. 2015-07-25T05:06:46Z White_Flame: lisp-noob: well, that's a ridiculous number of source-position updates 2015-07-25T05:06:58Z White_Flame: no matter how cheap they are, that's going to be a hefty load 2015-07-25T05:07:10Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: yep but it gives good stack traces 2015-07-25T05:07:20Z drmeister: DEFINE-AST defines the structure and builds a list of accessors that will let me traverse the children. 2015-07-25T05:07:31Z nyef: lisp-noob: You should get a performance-boost if you declare *source-position* to be dynamic-extent all over the place... As long as it actually follows d-x constraints. 2015-07-25T05:07:46Z White_Flame: lisp-noob: Do you do anything to "walk up the stack" of scoped source-position values? or only look at the most current one? 2015-07-25T05:08:12Z White_Flame: oh wait, you cons up the entire list of how you got there 2015-07-25T05:08:19Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-25T05:08:21Z drmeister: Each CODEGEN-XXX (XXX is a special operator) gets turned into a MINCOMP-XXX and a CODEGEN-XXX. MINCOMP-XXX returns one of these AST nodes and CODEGEN-XXX consumes them and generates LLVM-IR. 2015-07-25T05:08:25Z White_Flame: what you could do is store it in an array instead, and push/pop at the end 2015-07-25T05:08:42Z drmeister: It's somewhat mechanical to convert my current CODEGEN-XXX functions into a MINCOMP-XXX and CODEGEN-XXX pair. 2015-07-25T05:08:55Z lisp-noob: nyef: (declare (dynamic-extent x)), yes? 2015-07-25T05:09:02Z nyef: Pretty much, yes. 2015-07-25T05:09:09Z nyef: Use it as a bound declaration. 2015-07-25T05:09:31Z White_Flame: but then you wouldn't be able to refer to it in stack reports; you'd have to explicitly copy it out 2015-07-25T05:09:34Z nyef: It should prompt SBCL to stack-allocate the cons cells, which tends to be faster, and doesn't stress the GC as much. 2015-07-25T05:09:35Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: yep, it has the full stack there 2015-07-25T05:10:16Z nyef: But the storage gets deallocated on unwind, so that's something to keep in mind. 2015-07-25T05:13:08Z lisp-noob: nyef: thanks, i'll look into this. any other ideas? i still don't like the idea of naive approach of wrapping each expression. if i could make a hash pointing to each possible lisp backtrace element... 2015-07-25T05:14:04Z lisp-noob: or something else that eliminates the naive wrapping 2015-07-25T05:14:17Z nyef: lisp-noob: I'm not at all sure how to hack up the compiler's source tracking at this point. 2015-07-25T05:14:27Z nyef: Even if it IS the logical next step. 2015-07-25T05:15:59Z White_Flame: one compromise is to only add a new cell on each function call, and setf the current location within the function per instruction 2015-07-25T05:16:27Z White_Flame: basically, you don't just have a call stack, but map out the entire path through the current expression 2015-07-25T05:17:12Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-25T05:18:28Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: ecl is pretty active, I put considerable amount on time into it 2015-07-25T05:18:40Z jackdaniel: android support is experimental, but should be stable in next release 2015-07-25T05:18:40Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: yep, nice to hear 2015-07-25T05:18:55Z jackdaniel: and mkcl (mentioned fork) targets only windows platform afaik 2015-07-25T05:19:18Z jackdaniel: don't know how active is it tough 2015-07-25T05:19:36Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: yes, selective wrapping is something i'm considering. on the other hand, it would not have the location for "Using undefined variable 'x' at ???" 2015-07-25T05:20:11Z jackdaniel: and java interface is done via jni (in experimental branch there is sample android application contributed by evrim) 2015-07-25T05:20:51Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: I'll certainly look into that if the guy who wants this says "go" 2015-07-25T05:21:00Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: selective wrapping needs very careful consideration of what might cause errors and therefore needs wrapping 2015-07-25T05:21:16Z jibanes: damn sbcl is fast 2015-07-25T05:21:25Z kristof: lol 2015-07-25T05:21:42Z kristof: jibanes: Are you using OPTIMIZE decl's and type annotations? 2015-07-25T05:21:51Z jibanes: not even 2015-07-25T05:22:02Z lisp-noob: nyef: thanks 2015-07-25T05:22:08Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-25T05:22:16Z White_Flame: lisp-noob: the nesting of expressions is a static source code artifact. If you have a unique identifier per instruction, just having that should let you trace parents out through to the function body entrance 2015-07-25T05:22:17Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-25T05:22:35Z White_Flame: hence, only 1 stored indicator needed per function, not the full stack 2015-07-25T05:22:39Z jibanes: not only it's fast, but super memory efficient. 2015-07-25T05:22:41Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-25T05:22:58Z White_Flame: jibanes: type inference is awesome 2015-07-25T05:23:20Z kristof: It doesn't even use HM. The types just "flow". 2015-07-25T05:23:22Z kristof: or whatever. 2015-07-25T05:23:24Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: i had it that way in previous implementation, where i had a vm. instruction pointer was enough. here i'm compiling to lisp and then (eval)ing 2015-07-25T05:23:38Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T05:23:54Z jibanes: other than dtrace and a few things, is there a convenient way to do unit testing on sbcl? 2015-07-25T05:24:29Z White_Flame: lisp-noob: I don't see how that would change. On function entrance, do the LET wrapping. Inside the function, (setf (car *source-location*) ..indicator..) over and over 2015-07-25T05:25:20Z White_Flame: if the source location cons cell is on the stack, that might even optimize down to an immediate store directly to a known place on the stack 2015-07-25T05:25:23Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: oh, i see. interesting idea 2015-07-25T05:26:33Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: it has the problem with nested expressions, i'll have to setf before and after each expression then 2015-07-25T05:26:42Z beach: jibanes: You use a library for unit testing. 2015-07-25T05:27:07Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-25T05:27:35Z White_Flame: lisp-noob: no, the nested expressions are a static lookup that comes from the lexical structure of the source code. You don't need to track that at runtime 2015-07-25T05:27:37Z beach: jibanes: Though, often I don't bother with a library. I just write a bunch of ASSERTs. 2015-07-25T05:28:19Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: ah, setq will use just a marker, not the source code position, ok then 2015-07-25T05:28:21Z White_Flame: lisp-noob: heck, you could put the AST node directly into the source-location cons cell 2015-07-25T05:29:05Z White_Flame: so the object that represents that piece of source code is held in reference, and you can directly dereference other information from it 2015-07-25T05:29:27Z White_Flame: ie, walk up the tree of parent expression AST nodes 2015-07-25T05:30:27Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: if it's not a marker but an ast node, it will require setf after the expression too i think, not sure... 2015-07-25T05:30:57Z White_Flame: (let ((*location* ...) ..body...) does work on entry & exit 2015-07-25T05:31:10Z White_Flame: you'd need a setf on entry, and setf on exit to re-set the value to the parent node 2015-07-25T05:31:12Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: yep, let is ok, not setf 2015-07-25T05:31:28Z White_Flame: or chain siblings, etc 2015-07-25T05:32:08Z White_Flame: it certainly sounds like 50% of the generated machine code would be dealing with updating the current source location 2015-07-25T05:32:30Z White_Flame: depending on how fine grained you're going, which sounds like "very fine grained" :) 2015-07-25T05:32:48Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-25T05:33:13Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: siblings gluing you mean joining exit setf with next entry setf, right? 2015-07-25T05:33:24Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-25T05:33:47Z White_Flame: right 2015-07-25T05:33:49Z lisp-noob: i just went with naive :around wrapping for each AST node... well, it does not work so well (fast) :) 2015-07-25T05:34:15Z White_Flame: so (+ 1 2) or whatever, would setf either +,1,+,2,+, or just +,1,2,+ 2015-07-25T05:35:00Z lisp-noob: gluing should be ok, needs poc of course to see it's really ok 2015-07-25T05:37:44Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T05:38:10Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T05:39:36Z Intensity joined #lisp 2015-07-25T05:41:32Z lisp-noob: White_Flame: thanks 2015-07-25T05:41:39Z White_Flame: np 2015-07-25T05:42:14Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-07-25T05:45:35Z ozzloy quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-25T05:46:18Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2015-07-25T05:48:10Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-25T05:57:19Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T06:05:48Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-25T06:07:44Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-25T06:07:50Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T06:13:23Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-25T06:13:36Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-25T06:16:26Z tmtwd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T06:16:31Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-25T06:18:09Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T06:20:28Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T06:21:58Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-25T06:23:08Z alexherbo2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T06:25:03Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-07-25T06:26:54Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-25T06:32:37Z beach: Shinmera: The URL http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp works, but http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp does not. Any reason for that? 2015-07-25T06:33:00Z beach: With the latter, one has to add arguments in order for it to work. 2015-07-25T06:33:29Z Shinmera: Both work fine for me 2015-07-25T06:34:12Z beach: For the latter one, I get "Secure Connection Failed" 2015-07-25T06:34:28Z Shinmera: did you put in another https by accident on your end? 2015-07-25T06:34:40Z Shinmera: because the links you pasted me just now both work. 2015-07-25T06:34:50Z beach: Wait... 2015-07-25T06:35:15Z beach: I said the wrong thing... 2015-07-25T06:35:31Z beach: Shinmera: The URL log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp works, but log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp does not. Any reason for that? 2015-07-25T06:35:58Z Shinmera: your browser caching one as https and the other not. 2015-07-25T06:36:07Z Shinmera: Apparently anyway, if that's the error you're getting. 2015-07-25T06:36:09Z beach: But actually, it is still true for the first two URLs. 2015-07-25T06:36:39Z Shinmera: Again, I cannot reproduce your issue, but if you're getting an error about secure connections, then your browser is trying to establish HTTPS, which will not work. 2015-07-25T06:36:49Z beach: Right. 2015-07-25T06:36:54Z beach: I don't know why it is doing that. 2015-07-25T06:37:19Z Shinmera: The only thing I can think of is an extension like https everywhere that tries to do that, or your browser caching it and trying to be smart. 2015-07-25T06:37:35Z beach: Even though I give an explicit http: it still tries https. 2015-07-25T06:37:44Z Shinmera: Either way, I should probably move the logs down to a single subdomain level so https will actually work. 2015-07-25T06:37:48Z Shinmera: Huh. 2015-07-25T06:38:39Z beach: Even though I give http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp it displays the URL with https and fails. 2015-07-25T06:39:04Z beach: Now, if I put in explicit arguments, it works. 2015-07-25T06:39:11Z beach: like &from &to etc. 2015-07-25T06:41:32Z Shinmera: Clearing your cache might be an option. 2015-07-25T06:41:46Z beach: OK, I'll try that. Thanks. 2015-07-25T06:42:39Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-25T06:45:58Z Shinmera: This should work now as well: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/ 2015-07-25T06:46:08Z Shinmera: (the https is intentional this time) 2015-07-25T06:46:54Z theos: hey 2015-07-25T06:48:15Z theos: what would be the best approach to make a massively modular CL system? i want children (mostly my kids) to develop it as they grow up. 2015-07-25T06:49:00Z beach: minion: Please tell theos about SICL. 2015-07-25T06:49:00Z minion: theos: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2015-07-25T06:50:21Z theos: beach i want to use CL as it is. 2015-07-25T06:50:47Z beach: theos: I am confused. 2015-07-25T06:51:07Z beach: Perhaps you mean something different than I do when you say "a ... CL system". 2015-07-25T06:51:21Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-25T06:51:42Z theos: hmm. so CL cant be used to make massively modular systems/software? 2015-07-25T06:51:43Z beach: Are you talking about an application written in CL? 2015-07-25T06:51:45Z gendl_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-25T06:51:49Z theos: yes^^ 2015-07-25T06:52:02Z beach: We mean different things when we say "a ... CL system" then. 2015-07-25T06:52:11Z beach: OK, now I understand. 2015-07-25T06:52:22Z theos: what do you mean when you say that? 2015-07-25T06:52:31Z beach: an implementation of CL. 2015-07-25T06:52:37Z beach: That's what I thought you meant. 2015-07-25T06:53:03Z beach: Like "a Unix system" is not an application that runs on Unix, but an implementation of Unix. To me, that is. 2015-07-25T06:53:08Z theos: oh. i should have used "software" 2015-07-25T06:53:11Z beach: But now I understand. 2015-07-25T06:53:23Z beach: My advice, use CLOS a lot. 2015-07-25T06:53:30Z White_Flame: "system" as used in ASDF 2015-07-25T06:53:38Z beach: True. 2015-07-25T06:53:39Z theos: should i read the amop book? 2015-07-25T06:53:54Z beach: theos: No need if you are just going to use CLOS. 2015-07-25T06:54:10Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-25T06:54:12Z beach: theos: But you need to understand it fully as a user. 2015-07-25T06:54:28Z beach: Unfortunately there are few books about it, and they are a bit old. 2015-07-25T06:55:15Z beach: theos: Define protocols for each part of your software. 2015-07-25T06:55:24Z theos: beach can you suggest some(or all of them if thats ok with you)? i might have a few 2015-07-25T06:55:58Z beach: theos: Here, a "protocol" is a set of generic functions and protocol classes. 2015-07-25T06:57:06Z beach: The only book I know of really is Sonja Keene's book. 2015-07-25T06:57:36Z beach: But I never quite understood CLOS from that book. I understood it from reading the CLIM II specification. 2015-07-25T06:57:39Z theos: ah! i have that one. i think thats the best one written on CLOS 2015-07-25T06:58:00Z beach: It's the best one, but it's not good. :) 2015-07-25T06:58:23Z theos: not good how? 2015-07-25T06:58:25Z beach: The examples are old and confusing. 2015-07-25T06:58:53Z beach: The first example uses locks, which is not a standard Common Lisp feature. 2015-07-25T06:59:24Z theos: hmm so its an old book even for CL standards 2015-07-25T06:59:57Z beach: In my opinion it is old, yes. And very incomplete. 2015-07-25T07:01:04Z theos: CLOS is introduced in a lot of CL books as a chapter or 2. i think that would be enough. 2015-07-25T07:01:15Z beach: These days, I tend to break up my programs into "modules", where each module has an ASDF system definition, a package, one or more protocols, and one or more files. 2015-07-25T07:03:18Z beach: If you do that, you make sure that each module is independent of the program to which it belongs, and it could potentially be used in other programs as well. 2015-07-25T07:04:16Z beach: Do you have some particular application in mind? 2015-07-25T07:05:15Z theos: yes thats what i am planning to do. so each module can be removed and added without affecting the application. 2015-07-25T07:05:30Z beach: Right. That's a good start. 2015-07-25T07:05:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:08:54Z beach: For each protocol, you establish, document, and enforce preconditions and invariants. 2015-07-25T07:09:36Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:10:34Z theos: i am thinking of making an educational software for my kids and other kids that i teach. it should be engaging and interesting enough that they will learn everything through it and also learn CL by hacking it. modifying old modules, adding new ones as they learn more etc. the "system" will be a combination of a lot of systems which can be used independently and also together. 2015-07-25T07:12:23Z theos: it will teach kids and also learn how to teach as time progresses 2015-07-25T07:13:29Z beach: For each module, define specific condition types to be signaled, as well as restarts whenever they make sense, and document those as part of the protocol. 2015-07-25T07:14:12Z beach: Interesting project. 2015-07-25T07:14:16Z beach: Hard stuff though. 2015-07-25T07:14:27Z guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:14:34Z theos: yes there will be an inference engine and a knowledge base in one independent part of the system. 2015-07-25T07:15:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:16:47Z beach: If you are not very experienced with CLOS, I suggest you submit your modules for review here, at least in the beginning. 2015-07-25T07:18:20Z beach: Have you already started writing some code? 2015-07-25T07:19:06Z theos: not yet. i am looking for the best approach 2015-07-25T07:19:25Z tstc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T07:19:33Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:20:06Z beach: I am willing to bet that you need a very different approach for different subjects. I don't see much in common between (say) mathematics and geography. 2015-07-25T07:21:44Z beach: I am assuming you want the user to answer questions asked by the software and that you want to be able to check the answers. 2015-07-25T07:21:56Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-25T07:24:30Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T07:25:08Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T07:25:14Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:25:54Z theos: yes question/answer expert system is one part. the main part will be the teaching system. like a hypermedia wiki where users can learn about anything they want. the course/syllabus will be constructed separately for every user after the system knows how much or how little the user knows and wants to know. 2015-07-25T07:27:06Z theos: i want to make the ultimate learning environment. 2015-07-25T07:31:56Z guthur: there was some expert system teaching platform, written in Lisp iirc 2015-07-25T07:32:09Z guthur: can not remember the name right now 2015-07-25T07:32:16Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:32:47Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:34:28Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:38:47Z sstreptot joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:38:48Z theos: oh nice! i will search for it 2015-07-25T07:39:15Z streptotrichosis quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T07:40:12Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:41:39Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:42:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:42:21Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:43:00Z fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| ASDF 3.1.5, cl-launch 4.1.4, SBCL 1.2.13, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1 2015-07-25T07:44:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T07:44:07Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:45:53Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-25T07:45:57Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-25T07:46:11Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T07:47:41Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T07:51:58Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-25T08:02:07Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T08:02:12Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-25T08:07:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-25T08:08:05Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T08:09:27Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-25T08:12:16Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-25T08:12:40Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-25T08:13:25Z Ettore1 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T08:16:39Z Ettore quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T08:17:58Z jackdaniel -- the bughunt :D 2015-07-25T08:18:56Z Ettore1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-25T08:21:48Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-25T08:23:29Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-25T08:29:29Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-25T08:32:36Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T08:34:09Z huserl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T08:38:10Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-25T08:40:36Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-25T08:41:52Z Akshay_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T08:43:47Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-25T08:44:35Z Akshay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T08:46:21Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T08:46:48Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-25T08:50:55Z huza joined #lisp 2015-07-25T08:52:07Z jackdaniel: oh my, never tought I'll enjoy daft punk as theme for programming ^_^ 2015-07-25T08:56:27Z clique: Music has kept becoming lower-class because the demographics of people who can afford to patronize music has kept extending to lower classes 2015-07-25T08:57:10Z schjetne: I'm not sure I would call subscribing to Spotify "patronage" 2015-07-25T08:57:16Z Shinmera: Fortunately this is #lisp and not #music 2015-07-25T08:58:30Z clique: xd 2015-07-25T08:58:32Z jackdaniel: and to make it on-topic - all programming theme is good for me is in CL ;-) 2015-07-25T08:59:24Z clique: one more time xd 2015-07-25T09:05:25Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T09:09:02Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-25T09:09:17Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T09:11:58Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-25T09:24:28Z kcj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T09:25:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-25T09:31:43Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T09:32:48Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-07-25T09:32:50Z wz1000 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-25T09:36:26Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-25T09:42:32Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-25T09:42:46Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-25T09:44:52Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2015-07-25T09:48:41Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T09:50:05Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-25T09:53:17Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-25T09:56:04Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T10:13:10Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-25T10:17:03Z jackdaniel: what may cause, that #\A is read by reader as #\a ? 2015-07-25T10:17:29Z jackdaniel: (any character downcased that is) 2015-07-25T10:17:46Z jackdaniel: something with readtable may cause that? 2015-07-25T10:18:24Z oleo_: *print-case* ? 2015-07-25T10:19:01Z oleo_: that's for printing and string-downcase can do that too 2015-07-25T10:19:34Z jackdaniel: yes, but I'm asking about reader 2015-07-25T10:20:04Z jackdaniel: (read) ;; #\A ;; --> #\a 2015-07-25T10:20:26Z oleo_: (readtable-case *readtable*) 2015-07-25T10:20:32Z oleo_: that one too 2015-07-25T10:20:42Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-07-25T10:20:48Z oleo_: it's :upcase in my repl 2015-07-25T10:20:55Z oleo_: and normally it is :upcase afaik 2015-07-25T10:21:07Z jackdaniel: yes, but it doesn't affect character literals, like #\a #\A 2015-07-25T10:21:15Z jackdaniel: it affects symbols 2015-07-25T10:24:35Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:24:42Z PuercoPop: (read #\A) 2015-07-25T10:24:48Z PuercoPop: wrong window 2015-07-25T10:29:47Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:32:39Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:33:43Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T10:34:23Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-25T10:34:47Z Akshay_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T10:34:49Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-25T10:35:11Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T10:35:18Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-25T10:36:03Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:38:17Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-25T10:38:21Z yenda_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:38:34Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:38:37Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:39:55Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:43:25Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:45:16Z admg joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:54:28Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-25T10:57:11Z beach` joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:57:30Z Akshay_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T10:57:42Z beach quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-25T10:57:46Z beach` is now known as beach 2015-07-25T11:00:59Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-25T11:01:36Z lisp-noob quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:01:53Z lisp-noob joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:04:18Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:05:23Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:09:08Z theos: hey 2015-07-25T11:11:23Z jackdaniel: o/ 2015-07-25T11:12:13Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:13:37Z theos listens to "its my life" while writing CL 2015-07-25T11:15:07Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:16:40Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:18:53Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:21:28Z lisp-noob quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:23:09Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:25:12Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:25:50Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:27:15Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:28:03Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:32:09Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:32:40Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:35:16Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:36:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:37:08Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:38:11Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:41:43Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:42:02Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:43:06Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:44:15Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T11:54:00Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:54:49Z magistr joined #lisp 2015-07-25T11:55:11Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:55:50Z magistr: give me a Common Lisp HyperSpec in pdf format 2015-07-25T11:57:56Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T11:58:23Z guthur: magistr not sure it would be a "hyper"Spec then, there is the ANSI standard PDF 2015-07-25T11:58:53Z guthur has not actually looked at the PDF version of the ANSI spec 2015-07-25T11:59:01Z k-stz: magistr: if you need it offline there are better solutions 2015-07-25T11:59:05Z guthur: there is a link from http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/common-lisp.html 2015-07-25T11:59:58Z magistr: "The document you tried to access is not available or may have been replaced by a newer version. " 2015-07-25T12:00:27Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-25T12:00:31Z jackdaniel: guthur: ansi pdf quality is terrible 2015-07-25T12:00:39Z jackdaniel: at least that's what i've heard 2015-07-25T12:01:23Z trig-ger_ is now known as trig-ger 2015-07-25T12:01:37Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:03:12Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-25T12:04:08Z magistr: " The requested page "/Web/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html" could not be found." 2015-07-25T12:05:10Z remi`bd: magistr: http://www-prod-gif.supelec.fr/docs/cltl/cltl2.html 2015-07-25T12:06:16Z magistr left #lisp 2015-07-25T12:06:20Z knobo: Would it be possible to make hunhentoot fall back to latin-1 if it got an utf-8 charachter error? 2015-07-25T12:06:54Z knobo: by retrying the whole operation with *hunchentoot-default-external-format* set to +latin-1+ 2015-07-25T12:08:22Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T12:08:29Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:10:05Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:10:21Z knobo: So in stead of crashing the server if someone puts an ø the url, it could give a propper 404 2015-07-25T12:11:26Z ghard left #lisp 2015-07-25T12:13:20Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-25T12:14:20Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:14:45Z knobo: by automatically running recompute-request-parameters on a decode-error 2015-07-25T12:15:17Z Beetny_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T12:16:22Z newcup joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:16:32Z Akshay_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T12:17:56Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:21:00Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:22:13Z jesseman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T12:24:38Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:29:08Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:29:47Z jackdaniel: o, mesa hit 4.0 2015-07-25T12:29:55Z jackdaniel: opengl 4.0 that is° 2015-07-25T12:30:05Z |3b|: nice 2015-07-25T12:32:03Z k-stz: thanks valve I guess 2015-07-25T12:32:13Z |3b|: or just time 2015-07-25T12:33:04Z jackdaniel: they strived for it for quite a long time 2015-07-25T12:36:35Z Skrylar joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:37:01Z Akshay_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:37:09Z k-stz: jackdaniel: source? 2015-07-25T12:37:41Z |3b|: seems pretty obvious that they would be working on it 2015-07-25T12:39:17Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T12:39:20Z jackdaniel: k-stz: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/ 2015-07-25T12:39:26Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-25T12:41:08Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:41:23Z jackdaniel: quick ducking returns this http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=mesa-opengl-40&num=1 , if you want some press release 2015-07-25T12:42:02Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-25T12:42:25Z theos: i dont think they can make it better than the proprietary drivers 2015-07-25T12:43:39Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:44:35Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:46:49Z jackdaniel: there are many factors which might be associated with "better" - speed is one, another one is interoperability or extensibility, backward compatibility etc etc 2015-07-25T12:49:50Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:50:34Z k-stz: with the 4.0 support for us programmers this just means that we can can write 4.0 programs and expect most linux users to be able to run them right? 2015-07-25T12:50:49Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-07-25T12:51:50Z edgar-rft: magistr: There is a PDF version the dpANS3 pre-print version of the ANSI specification under http://linux4u.jinr.ru/pub/misc/symbolic/lisp/dpANS3/book.pdf 2015-07-25T12:59:28Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-25T12:59:28Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T12:59:51Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:03:58Z raphaels` joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:04:30Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:06:23Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:14:52Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:17:09Z raphaels` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-07-25T13:18:37Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:18:50Z KingNato_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:21:35Z echo-are` joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:21:36Z tstc` joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:21:57Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:21:57Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:21:57Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:21:58Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:21:58Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:21:58Z echo-area quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:21:58Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:21:58Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:21:58Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2015-07-25T13:21:58Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:21:58Z KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 2015-07-25T13:22:06Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:22:47Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:26:59Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:28:03Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:28:10Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:28:36Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:28:47Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:29:13Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T13:29:51Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:30:08Z |3b|: k-stz: people will still need 4.x hardware unless you want things to be horribly slow 2015-07-25T13:30:38Z |3b|: (assuming mesa gives you a software fallback instead of just rejecting requests for a 4.x context) 2015-07-25T13:31:47Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:36:33Z p_l: |3b|: well, depends whether the new functions require new hardware (this is not always the case) 2015-07-25T13:36:55Z |3b|: p_l: pretty much the entire point of 4.x is new hardware 2015-07-25T13:37:04Z White_Flame quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T13:37:40Z |3b|: 3.x and 4.x are both actively updated, 3.x is dx9 hardware, 4.x is dx10 (or something like that, i don't remember dx versions) 2015-07-25T13:37:58Z |3b|: though 4.x is pretty old "new hardware" at this point 2015-07-25T13:39:25Z p_l: |3b|: Just more of the "new version mandating what was previously extensions" stuff 2015-07-25T13:39:47Z |3b|: ? 2015-07-25T13:39:59Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T13:40:47Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:40:54Z p_l: |3b|: Remember the AZDO stuff, it being mostly "oh well, it works if you have 4.3 or so"? Got all of the features on OpenGL 3.3 (except bindless, iirc, which is a hw change) - it was just part of non-mandatory extensions 2015-07-25T13:41:33Z p_l: anyway, Mesa with 4.0 probably means intel got around to updating its hardware to 4.0 ;) 2015-07-25T13:42:13Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:43:54Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:44:20Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:46:30Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:46:32Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:48:29Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:49:55Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:51:15Z joshe joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:53:38Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:54:12Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:54:20Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T13:55:42Z jackdaniel: ok, I've found a culpirt, ECL mishandles readtable-case set to :invert *and* readtable isn't reset when loading set of libraries (not sure if latter is problem with ecl, or asdf | quicklisp) 2015-07-25T13:57:50Z Skrylar: i seem to recall ecl is generally unpleasant to work with, although its been a while since i used it and it might be better now 2015-07-25T13:58:40Z jackdaniel: Skrylar: my impression is the oposite, codebase is really clean. Unless you mean end-user experience - slime backend needs a bit of love, that's for sure 2015-07-25T13:59:41Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-25T13:59:53Z Skrylar: jackdaniel: my first experiences with it were copious segfaults, found out that for some reason line endings for some random c files had to be set to specific encodings to fix, and it tended to generate code clumsily 2015-07-25T13:59:59Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:00:10Z Skrylar: like, it doesn't actually obey inlines 2015-07-25T14:00:55Z jackdaniel: uhm, I'm not in position to deny what you experienced 2015-07-25T14:01:35Z jackdaniel: anyway I try to squash bugs with time, next time if you try ecl and encounter such a bug, please report it 2015-07-25T14:01:50Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-25T14:02:19Z echo-are` is now known as echo-area 2015-07-25T14:02:23Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T14:03:09Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T14:03:31Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T14:06:13Z dim: I tried ecl only once and couldn't play with pgloader on ecl, because of lacking of threads in some sorts IIRC, and lparallel or something else not being supported 2015-07-25T14:06:31Z dim: very fuzy memory, only thing I remember is I couldn't run pgloader on ecl 2015-07-25T14:07:47Z jackdaniel types in ecl (ql:quickload :pgloader) 2015-07-25T14:08:23Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:08:26Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:08:34Z jackdaniel: cl-postgres-error throws an error about invalid :double-float specializer, hmm. I'll take look into that, if fixing readtables bug succeeds 2015-07-25T14:09:07Z dim: ok, thx for looking into it! 2015-07-25T14:09:52Z jackdaniel: np, I find it really enlightening when lurk through libraries to find bug in them or in ecl - and fix it :) 2015-07-25T14:09:56Z jackdaniel: great learning experience 2015-07-25T14:10:30Z dim: if you play with pgloader you might want to run the unit tests and discover problems, you need some PostgreSQL installed for that 2015-07-25T14:10:37Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T14:10:52Z dim: pgloader produces and compile lisp code at runtime 2015-07-25T14:11:01Z dim: so chances of new bugs found by running it isn't 0 2015-07-25T14:11:13Z dim: (pgloader:run-commands "/Users/dim/dev/pgloader/test/archive.load") 2015-07-25T14:11:20Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:11:23Z dim: that's how to run a test from the lisp side of the world 2015-07-25T14:12:23Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T14:12:52Z jackdaniel: hm, when I finish with current thing (:invert), direct goal would be successful pgloader loading into image 2015-07-25T14:13:37Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if I'll find time to test it throughfully in near future 2015-07-25T14:17:21Z Skrylar: dim: ecl does support threads from what i remember but its very borky 2015-07-25T14:17:54Z jackdaniel: it does, not sure what do you mean by borky tough 2015-07-25T14:18:00Z Skrylar: from what i recall of the SLIME docs, ecl's compiler isn't actually thread-safe which is why slime has to use some of the worse ways of communicating 2015-07-25T14:18:36Z Skrylar: or at least thats what the ecl adapter that shipped with slime said 2015-07-25T14:20:41Z jackdaniel: dim: lparallel and lfarm work fine btw 2015-07-25T14:22:01Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:22:36Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T14:23:21Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:26:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:27:02Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:27:33Z resttime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T14:27:47Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T14:27:55Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:28:10Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T14:28:27Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T14:32:03Z clique quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T14:34:42Z dim: jackdaniel: awesome 2015-07-25T14:35:03Z dim: jackdaniel: as soon as pgloader loads I can handle the testing 2015-07-25T14:35:49Z dim: I will be interested into two things: a. building an image for shipping, with all the .so mess from cffi and b. performances compared to sbcl 2015-07-25T14:36:44Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T14:40:22Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:41:52Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:42:49Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T14:43:20Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T14:43:49Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:47:10Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:47:15Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:47:48Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:52:04Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:56:39Z m_zr0: man. does anybody have any idea why slime loves to give the error: Symbol's func def is void: slime-face-inheritance-possible-p? I'm trying to learn to be able to set up slime without hassle, and this one plagues me. ELPA install: slime, slime-repl 2015-07-25T14:56:44Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-25T14:57:15Z m_zr0: it's been three weeks (and now we all have a song stuck in our head, at least, the intro) 2015-07-25T14:57:37Z s00pcan quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-25T14:57:51Z m_zr0: this happens in windows (solved, don't install slime-repl), linux (WIP), and OSX (wip) 2015-07-25T14:58:29Z jackdaniel: m_zr0: best choice would be using slime took from quicklisp, it's what most people do, so it will be more likely, that they will be able to reproduce and/or you won't have problem 2015-07-25T14:59:34Z m_zr0: oh nice, looking at it now. I guess i've been doing it the hard way :D 2015-07-25T15:00:20Z m_zr0: almost makes me sad. you'd think an elpa install would do all of that 2015-07-25T15:02:26Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-25T15:02:30Z jackdaniel: good it's only "almost", not "completly" ;-) 2015-07-25T15:03:08Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-07-25T15:03:12Z ToeTag quit (Changing host) 2015-07-25T15:03:12Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-07-25T15:03:17Z m_zr0: ok, this is going to be the biggest beginner question of all time. "load quicklisp into your comm. lisp impl., then eval". does that mean literally download -only- slime-helper.lisp, then load, then run function? 2015-07-25T15:03:35Z m_zr0: hahah nah the most rewarding things in life are the most challenging to obtain, just an opinion 2015-07-25T15:04:14Z jackdaniel: hm, do something like : sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp 2015-07-25T15:04:15Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T15:04:21Z jackdaniel: then you'll have a hint message in your repl 2015-07-25T15:04:53Z jackdaniel: how to install quicklisp, and then there is afair a hint, that you want to quickload slime-helper 2015-07-25T15:04:53Z m_zr0: sorry for the silly questions, really want to (understand) how to get this going. it works on a few systems, but that's like kicking a TV until it works. you should probably just know how you fixed it. 2015-07-25T15:05:23Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T15:05:38Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-25T15:05:59Z pjb: alternatively sbcl RET (load #P"~/quicklisp.lisp") RET 2015-07-25T15:06:18Z m_zr0: that makes sense, i HAVE to ask. dude this book "land of lisp" insists at the beginning to use clisp, though EVERYONE is using sbcl. will it mess up my (hi pjb!) flow to use sbcl instead of clisp? 2015-07-25T15:06:25Z pjb: there are several ways to do it, that's why we don't tell, we just say "load it". 2015-07-25T15:06:44Z pjb: Nope, I use mostly ccl for now (since I'm working on MacOSX). 2015-07-25T15:06:45Z |3b|: m_zr0: you will need to change some code to use sbcl, but google should be able to find the fixes 2015-07-25T15:06:46Z jackdaniel: m_zr0: I've heard a lot of good things about ccl also 2015-07-25T15:06:48Z m_zr0: i find way more instructions on sbcl setup, but want to follow the book so i don't run into some nonsense later 2015-07-25T15:06:57Z pjb: usually, we use several CL implementations, since they're good at different things. 2015-07-25T15:07:14Z |3b|: it mostly uses portable CL, but a few things like networking and running programs as child processes differ 2015-07-25T15:07:15Z pjb: sbcl is good at generating slowly fast code, so it may be useful to produce the final executable. 2015-07-25T15:07:28Z pjb: But other implementations may be preferable while developping. 2015-07-25T15:08:02Z jackdaniel: pjb: why do you use macosx? tought you are foss diehard, who despies apple 2015-07-25T15:08:05Z m_zr0: oooh. so that's why lispers have so many diff lisps on their machines 2015-07-25T15:08:11Z pjb: If you want to run your CL code inside an application, then ecl or abcl might be preferable, depending on whether that application is written in C or java. 2015-07-25T15:08:16Z pjb: Yep. 2015-07-25T15:08:30Z m_zr0: this is going to be fun. got all tingly inside :D 2015-07-25T15:08:33Z pjb: I use clisp for my scripts since it's a small implementation with an interpreter. 2015-07-25T15:08:39Z pjb: (so no startup time). 2015-07-25T15:10:05Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-25T15:10:46Z m_zr0: woooo brew install sbcl and let's make magic 2015-07-25T15:11:02Z m_zr0: dude why doesn't osx have wget already geez 2015-07-25T15:11:10Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T15:11:27Z pjb: m_zr0: it has it. 2015-07-25T15:11:28Z m_zr0: lol brew install wget.... 2015-07-25T15:11:40Z pjb: /opt/local/bin/wget 2015-07-25T15:11:41Z m_zr0: it does? out of the box ? 2015-07-25T15:11:42Z pjb: port install wget 2015-07-25T15:11:44Z Akshay_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T15:11:48Z m_zr0: port. 2015-07-25T15:11:55Z m_zr0: cmd not found. 2015-07-25T15:12:07Z m_zr0: since mavericks and newer? 2015-07-25T15:12:27Z m_zr0: i'm suspect of this install. it seems to be missing all kinds of common programs. 2015-07-25T15:12:35Z pjb: http://macports.org 2015-07-25T15:12:45Z m_zr0: like, all the terminal, none of the features 2015-07-25T15:12:58Z pjb: And also: http://www.emacsformacosx.com 2015-07-25T15:13:38Z pjb: and http://www.secretgeometry.com/apps/cathode/ to get all the feature of a terminal missing from Terminal.all 2015-07-25T15:14:35Z pjb: s/all/app/ 2015-07-25T15:15:07Z ToeTag: lol 2015-07-25T15:16:14Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-25T15:16:18Z m_zr0: morbidly curious aboout that last one 2015-07-25T15:16:19Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-25T15:16:43Z ToeTag: m_zr0, I don't know if you covered this already but CLISP, when started from the commandline has an interactive interpreter with, I think a GNU readline wrapper so you get tab completion of function names 2015-07-25T15:16:44Z m_zr0: and it's named cathode T_T 2015-07-25T15:17:02Z ToeTag: and sbcl doesn't have that for me, that I know of - haven't read the whole manpage yet 2015-07-25T15:17:40Z m_zr0: it does! and it rocks. the issue was when it made workflow confusing for a beginner (me) to follow without newline/indentation 2015-07-25T15:17:52Z m_zr0: all those crazy paren. hugs 2015-07-25T15:17:55Z m_zr0: touching me 2015-07-25T15:18:01Z m_zr0 runs screaming, then comes back 2015-07-25T15:20:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm trying to use ningle/clack to upload media files to a server, but I can only return a string at the end of my route without getting an SB-KERNEL:CASE-FAILURE. It's expecting a vector of unsigned bytes, a list, a pathname, or nil. If I try to coerce a binary file into a string, it doesn't work because not all the bytes are valid characters. Does anyone have an idea what I might be doing wrong or where I should lo 2015-07-25T15:20:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: ok? 2015-07-25T15:21:08Z remi`bd: I don’t know ningle/clack, but there’s usually special handlers to send files 2015-07-25T15:21:10Z pjb: Didn't specify the right encoding, or else it's really binary data. 2015-07-25T15:29:15Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T15:29:21Z Whymind quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-25T15:29:45Z m_zr0: btw thanks for the help guys, working on all of this now 2015-07-25T15:30:40Z jackdaniel: m_zr0: there is also channel #clnoobs 2015-07-25T15:31:58Z m_zr0: gotcha 2015-07-25T15:32:37Z m_zr0: .....why is everyone in there in their underwear? 2015-07-25T15:33:02Z jackdaniel: what? 2015-07-25T15:33:04Z m_zr0: well, when in rome 2015-07-25T15:37:17Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-25T15:44:17Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-25T15:47:51Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T15:49:28Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T15:49:45Z digiorgi: I am having a problem with cl-who, the code is simple. http://paste.lisp.org/display/152273 2015-07-25T15:50:20Z digiorgi: CL-WHO print two times "es" instead of one 2015-07-25T15:52:32Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-25T15:54:06Z digiorgi: i see it like a bug 2015-07-25T15:55:58Z sigjuice_: what libraries are available for html parsing or screen scraping? 2015-07-25T15:56:54Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-25T15:56:59Z beach: sigjuice_: Closure (the web browser) has an HTML parser in it. As I recall it is also `fault tolerant' in that it tries to patch bad HTML. 2015-07-25T15:57:14Z beach: The parser might already be maintained as a separate library. 2015-07-25T15:57:21Z beach: But I don't know the details. 2015-07-25T15:57:33Z dim: closure-html is in quicklisp 2015-07-25T15:57:43Z beach: There you go. 2015-07-25T15:57:44Z dim: with plenty others 2015-07-25T15:57:49Z dim: (ql:system-apropos "html") 2015-07-25T15:57:53Z Fade: cl-mechanize is also in quicklisp, last I looked. 2015-07-25T15:58:44Z Fade: which is a pretty decent web scraping lib. 2015-07-25T15:59:08Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-25T16:00:28Z sigjuice_: thanks for all the suggestions. I want to write a program to periodically fetch my cable modem's diagnostic web page to monitor signal levels and other parameters. 2015-07-25T16:01:21Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T16:02:15Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T16:03:56Z Fade: sigjuice_ : is this your first forray into lisp? 2015-07-25T16:05:12Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-25T16:06:31Z sigjuice_: I have been playing with list on and off over the past few years. 2015-07-25T16:06:42Z sigjuice_: s,list,lisp, 2015-07-25T16:06:45Z Fade: *nod* 2015-07-25T16:07:32Z ToeTag: Before quicklisp, did people just have to individually download libraries from their respective sources 2015-07-25T16:08:03Z sigjuice_: ToeTag: there used to be a system called asdf-install 2015-07-25T16:08:15Z p_l: and in-between asdf install and quicklisp there was clbuild 2015-07-25T16:08:52Z p_l: ASDF-INstall was pretty limited and reliant on Cliki which had ... less than stellar uptime 2015-07-25T16:10:07Z sigjuice_: some Linux distributions used a thing called common-lisp-controller 2015-07-25T16:12:16Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T16:12:45Z Fade: I used clbuild quite a bit. as I recall it was quite useful if you didn't already have sbcl installed. 2015-07-25T16:12:56Z Fade: it would download and build it for you. 2015-07-25T16:15:54Z p_l was heavy clbuild user 2015-07-25T16:16:18Z Fade: it was also nice if you wanted to hack on any of the libraries it downloaded. 2015-07-25T16:16:51Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T16:17:10Z Fade: quicklisp is better in just about every other conceivable way. 2015-07-25T16:20:04Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T16:24:11Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-25T16:26:50Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T16:33:59Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-25T16:35:02Z pjb: What was nice when you had to collect the dependencies by hand, is that you knew what you put in your programs. 2015-07-25T16:35:15Z pjb: Nowadays, you just ql:quickload, and it brings anything you don't care. 2015-07-25T16:36:15Z pjb: Also, there are good libraries that aren't included in quicklisp (yet), because nobody asked it. 2015-07-25T16:36:43Z pjb: (granted, a diminishing number). 2015-07-25T16:36:58Z guthur: I'm using static-vectors package and trying to store some integers for use with a foreign lib, but i can't seem to either get the right type-specifier or something is going a little wrong; it is working fine with single floats 2015-07-25T16:37:26Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T16:37:34Z guthur: when ever i try cffi:mem-aref (short) a index that should return 1 i get 256 2015-07-25T16:37:58Z guthur: i'm using (unsigned-byte 16) as the type-specifer for the static-vector 2015-07-25T16:38:23Z kawaii-imouto is now known as pyon 2015-07-25T16:38:39Z guthur: sorrry signed-byte 2015-07-25T16:39:05Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-25T16:39:32Z lisp-noob joined #lisp 2015-07-25T16:41:22Z psy_ 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2015-07-25T16:55:57Z guthur: oops meant to use signed-byte, it makes no difference though 2015-07-25T16:56:28Z phax joined #lisp 2015-07-25T16:56:58Z sdemarre left #lisp 2015-07-25T16:58:56Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T16:59:09Z digiorgi: novemberist: i am using now slime-company 2015-07-25T16:59:25Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-25T17:00:35Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-25T17:01:09Z digiorgi: any CL-WHO alternative? 2015-07-25T17:01:14Z novemberist: digiorgi: never used company-mode before (is it better than auto-complete?), but i might give it a try until the issue with ac-slime is fixed 2015-07-25T17:01:30Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T17:01:55Z digiorgi: novemberist: https://github.com/digiorgi/digiorgi-emacs.d 2015-07-25T17:02:45Z ztzg joined #lisp 2015-07-25T17:03:12Z digiorgi: novemberist: i found company faster, and ac better 2015-07-25T17:03:54Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-25T17:04:29Z novemberist: digiorgi: thank you 2015-07-25T17:04:50Z quasus quit (Ping 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that implement FSM out there? 2015-07-25T19:52:16Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-25T19:52:49Z pjb`: hitecnologys: yes. 2015-07-25T19:53:29Z p_l: question is - what do you mean by "implement FSM"? 2015-07-25T19:53:38Z pjb`: Finite State Machines? 2015-07-25T19:53:47Z p_l: though I'd love something akin to gen_fsm or Ragel 2015-07-25T19:53:54Z hitecnologys: pjb`: yeah. 2015-07-25T19:54:01Z p_l: pjb`: I mean more in terms of what should the library provide to you for FSM purposes 2015-07-25T19:54:13Z pjb`: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dfa hu.dwim.util.finite-state-machine and a few others. 2015-07-25T19:54:16Z kristof: You could write a very simple macro for it. 2015-07-25T19:54:23Z pjb`: Indeed. 2015-07-25T19:54:35Z p_l: take for example SBCL's reader implementation, which uses plain TAGBODY and GO for FSM 2015-07-25T19:54:35Z kristof: It is so easy with tail call optmization, it is not even funny. 2015-07-25T19:54:48Z kristof: yes 2015-07-25T19:54:49Z p_l: or TCO 2015-07-25T19:54:50Z hitecnologys: kristof: I know, I was just wondering if I could take a look at how others do it. 2015-07-25T19:54:53Z pjb`: The thing is that mathematicians define very bare concepts, but we programmers like to adorn them with more baroque features. 2015-07-25T19:55:14Z p_l: or consider the stuff provided by Ragel, which actually implements FSM for a regular language processing 2015-07-25T19:55:19Z kristof: pjb`: Because mathematicians never have to do anything useful. :) 2015-07-25T19:55:30Z beepbeep_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T19:55:35Z pjb`: For example, in our dfa/fsm, we like to attach to states on_entry/on_exit actions, add conditions to transitions, actions on transitions, etc. 2015-07-25T19:55:37Z bmk1st joined #lisp 2015-07-25T19:55:56Z pjb`: So you end up defining a DFA/FSM DSL to your own taste. 2015-07-25T19:56:29Z pjb`: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dfa.html 2015-07-25T19:57:06Z pjb`: And then, in OMT and UML, you have state machines with parallel forks, joins, embedded sub-state-machines, etc. 2015-07-25T19:57:10Z pjb`: A lot of fun to be had. 2015-07-25T19:57:30Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-25T19:57:35Z hitecnologys: OK, thanks. 2015-07-25T19:58:29Z pjb`: My DFA uses CLOS (dfa = class, event = generic function). But often you just want a simple loop/case. 2015-07-25T19:58:36Z pjb`: Hence the advice of writing your own macro. 2015-07-25T19:58:41Z hitecnologys: By the way, I assume FSM are the most optimal known way to implement parsers or I'm missing something great here? 2015-07-25T19:58:49Z pjb`: Nope. 2015-07-25T19:58:54Z pjb`: Parsers are impossible in FSM. 2015-07-25T19:58:57Z pjb`: In general. 2015-07-25T19:59:07Z hitecnologys: Er, how come? 2015-07-25T19:59:15Z pjb`: Parsers are used for languages that require recursion. FSM can't do recursion. 2015-07-25T19:59:26Z kristof: Something something regular grammars 2015-07-25T19:59:33Z pjb`: This is lesson 1 of compiler/parsing. 2015-07-25T19:59:42Z pjb`: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy 2015-07-25T19:59:47Z Shinmera: something chomsky 2015-07-25T19:59:55Z Shinmera: Beaten to the punch 2015-07-25T20:00:03Z pjb`: FSM = DFA = regular expressions. 2015-07-25T20:00:12Z pjb`: parsers = context-free languages. 2015-07-25T20:00:24Z pjb`: C++ and other fucked languages = context-sensitive. 2015-07-25T20:00:33Z pjb`: recursively enumerable are more complex even. 2015-07-25T20:00:35Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-07-25T20:01:02Z hitecnologys: Oh. 2015-07-25T20:01:12Z pjb`: Notice that lisp is recursively enumerable. Ie, turing machine is needed to recognize a sentence. 2015-07-25T20:01:52Z pjb`: and turing machine means halting problem. Means you can't know if a sentence is valid unless you run the program of that sentence. 2015-07-25T20:02:00Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-25T20:02:24Z kristof: hitecnologys: They will tell you in your discrete structures class that you can implement a parser with a fsm, and then show you regular expressions, and you'll think "oh wow, cool". And then they'll tell you the truth in an intro compiler class. 2015-07-25T20:02:53Z p_l: hitecnologys: however, FSMs might be used in parts of a parser, or often in the lexer used to feed the parser 2015-07-25T20:02:59Z pjb`: So the first lesson in compiler is this wikipedia page, and all the rest is unimportant enumeration of the various parsing algorithms from FSA to TM. :-) 2015-07-25T20:03:10Z pjb`: Definitely. 2015-07-25T20:03:21Z hitecnologys: Is there anything I could read on that these stuff wouldn't make my mind blown by concentration of high pure math? 2015-07-25T20:03:35Z Shinmera learned the truth himself by writing parsers by hand without any prior knowledge. Fun times with many mistakes. 2015-07-25T20:03:42Z hitecnologys: s/these // 2015-07-25T20:03:47Z pjb`: But then, when you have something like CPP, you have a lot of fun with the lexer too… 2015-07-25T20:03:57Z pjb`: #define m(a,b) a ## b :-) 2015-07-25T20:04:22Z pjb`: hitecnologys: the dragon book. 2015-07-25T20:04:25Z p_l: hitecnologys: dunno if the dragon book is heavy math, but I recall it the most out of compiler books that are heavy on the parsing part 2015-07-25T20:04:44Z pjb`: hitecnologys: the second edition is nice too (includes chapters on garbage collection and dynamically typed languages, yay). 2015-07-25T20:04:51Z p_l: otoh, there's a reason for the dragon on its cover 2015-07-25T20:05:15Z pjb`: hitecnologys: but there are also nice compilation books that are smoother or funnier. Unfortunately, I don't have my compiler books anymore, so I can't give you references off hand. 2015-07-25T20:05:27Z varjag: iirc it's not heavy on math but quite boring 2015-07-25T20:05:29Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-25T20:05:38Z hitecnologys: I see. 2015-07-25T20:05:41Z varjag: well i guess it have to be 2015-07-25T20:05:47Z hitecnologys: Well, thanks for pointers. 2015-07-25T20:06:26Z pjb`: Well, it gives the algorithms. 2015-07-25T20:06:37Z pjb`: So if you want to implement a parser generator, it's the book you want. 2015-07-25T20:07:09Z varjag: yep 2015-07-25T20:09:38Z kristof: varjag: Life is boring. What really snork's my flads is the rise of unprofessional writing that has accompanied the democratization of computer science. 2015-07-25T20:09:42Z Ettore1 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T20:09:50Z pjb`: I mean, when I was student, I tried to avoid a certain CS library, because everytime I passed in front of the compiler row, I had to buy half a dozen books… 2015-07-25T20:10:07Z Ettore1 left #lisp 2015-07-25T20:10:14Z Ettore quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-25T20:10:41Z pjb`: Now I have a /srv/books/ partition instead :-) 2015-07-25T20:12:12Z remi`bd: hitecnologys: another solution to implement FSM is: one function per state 2015-07-25T20:12:31Z remi`bd: but it’s only viable (and fun) if your Lisp implements tail-call optimization 2015-07-25T20:12:48Z p_l: remi`bd: or if you take those functions and stick them into labels block... ;) 2015-07-25T20:15:56Z lisp-noob quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-25T20:16:26Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-25T20:16:32Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T20:17:09Z varjag: still prefer the paper books, although most are admittedly on the company dime now 2015-07-25T20:17:34Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T20:18:10Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T20:19:13Z varjag: got me a vintage mcgraw-hill tome with Lenat's account of his AM 2015-07-25T20:19:20Z varjag: pre-TeX typesetting 2015-07-25T20:20:42Z kristof: pjb`: One day all knowledge will be free. 2015-07-25T20:21:09Z PuercoPop: hitecnologys: there is also this quick hack works well for interactive use, perfomance https://github.com/sshirokov/hinge/blob/master/src/http/fsm.lisp 2015-07-25T20:23:18Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T20:25:46Z hitecnologys: remi`bd: it's not exactly extensible, though. 2015-07-25T20:26:21Z remi`bd: well, it depends on what you call extensible. 2015-07-25T20:27:03Z remi`bd: on the other hand, it’s extremely simple 2015-07-25T20:27:12Z hitecnologys: PuercoPop: hm, looks interesting, thanks. 2015-07-25T20:28:15Z hitecnologys: remi`bd: well, it's good only if you need it quick and for specific problem. If you're solving general problems, this method is inapplicable. 2015-07-25T20:29:01Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-25T20:30:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T20:31:02Z tankfeeder joined #lisp 2015-07-25T20:32:06Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-25T20:33:06Z remi`bd: hitecnologys: on the contrary, it’s extremely simple to generate such an automaton 2015-07-25T20:33:17Z remi`bd: much more than generating a CLOS-based automaton 2015-07-25T20:33:46Z hitecnologys: remi`bd: yeah, that is true. 2015-07-25T20:37:42Z eudoxia: hey look what's coming out next year http://www.springer.com/us/book/9781493932061 2015-07-25T20:38:17Z w37 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T20:40:44Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T20:44:21Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-07-25T20:48:59Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-25T20:49:36Z tankfeeder quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T20:51:58Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-25T20:52:46Z ggole quit 2015-07-25T20:57:07Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T20:57:21Z francogrex: hi 2015-07-25T21:01:20Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:01:43Z hydan: eudoxia: nice! 2015-07-25T21:02:37Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T21:02:59Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T21:03:36Z jebes quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T21:04:05Z francogrex quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-25T21:07:26Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T21:15:21Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:15:25Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T21:16:27Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-25T21:16:33Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-25T21:17:02Z rayest joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:17:28Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:18:45Z rayest: what would be a way to detect if an expression is a macro call? Calling macroexpand on it and checking if it returns the same seems to work 2015-07-25T21:19:07Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:21:29Z kristof: rayest: macro-function 2015-07-25T21:21:49Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:22:32Z rayest: kristof: neat, thanks :) 2015-07-25T21:25:01Z clique quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-25T21:25:14Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:26:06Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:26:20Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T21:27:15Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:33:36Z bmk1st quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-25T21:33:56Z bmk1st joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:35:06Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-25T21:38:47Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-25T21:41:33Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:42:38Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-25T21:43:29Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-25T21:43:46Z jebes joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:44:30Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:46:23Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-25T21:48:17Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:53:32Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T21:54:35Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:55:38Z yenda_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T21:58:34Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-25T21:59:05Z ToeTag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T21:59:58Z eazar_singularit joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:00:30Z eazar_singularit is now known as eazarsingularity 2015-07-25T22:03:40Z eazarsingularity is now known as eazar_neuralnets 2015-07-25T22:05:21Z beepbeep_ quit 2015-07-25T22:07:44Z psy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T22:09:17Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T22:09:30Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T22:10:19Z ehu1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-25T22:13:06Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-25T22:14:59Z aeth: Has anyone tried to interact between Lua and Common Lisp before? Search engines seem to just contrast Lua and Lisp as "scripting languages", rather than describe how to run Lua from Common Lisp. 2015-07-25T22:14:59Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T22:15:11Z aeth: There's a Lisp -> Lua which is exactly the wrong direction. 2015-07-25T22:16:41Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:16:58Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:17:07Z aeth: [1] makes me want to try to rewrite Wesnoth in Common Lisp just becase. Most of Wesnoth is WML (like XML, but actually even easier to represent in s-expression form because it's only [foo] bar = baz [/foo], instead of <foo bar="baz"> bar2 = baz2 </foo> or something. 2015-07-25T22:17:11Z aeth: [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9946668 2015-07-25T22:17:53Z aeth: Wesnoth is in very ancient, very slow C++. This is a perfect case for where Common Lisp can beat C++ in speed considerably simply by using smarter architecture. 2015-07-25T22:18:32Z aeth: (well, "very ancient" as in it started in 2003) 2015-07-25T22:19:18Z gremble: Why not just better architectured C++? 2015-07-25T22:19:22Z aeth: The thing that complicates it is that the AI is written in Lua, not this XML-like language. 2015-07-25T22:19:28Z z0d: aeth: I think I played it in 1999 2015-07-25T22:19:38Z aeth: z0d: Wikipedia says it started in 2003. 2015-07-25T22:20:30Z z0d: aeth: yes, version 1.0 2015-07-25T22:21:56Z aeth: wc -l `find -name '*\.cpp'` | tail -n 1 # 262520 total 2015-07-25T22:22:09Z aeth: I don't think rewriting it in better architectured blub would ever finish. 2015-07-25T22:22:15Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T22:22:36Z gremble: And rewriting it in another language would? 2015-07-25T22:22:38Z aeth: besides, WML is a cousin of XML so it's practically made for Lisp. 2015-07-25T22:23:10Z gremble: THink it is cool to try and do nonetheless 2015-07-25T22:24:06Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:24:14Z z0d: yes, that would be an interesting project 2015-07-25T22:24:26Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:24:32Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-25T22:24:40Z aeth: I think the easiest way to do it (for some definition of "easy") would be to ignore playing nicely with the existing C++ and just write a better way of handling WML natively in Lisp. 2015-07-25T22:24:51Z aeth: The only issue is that Lua is used to interact with WML in places. 2015-07-25T22:25:19Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:25:22Z aeth: Why Lisp? The only time I have ever had any sort of entertainment working with an XML-like language is doing it in s-expressions. 2015-07-25T22:26:01Z z0d: aeth: do you have anything concrete in mind? for example using CLOS? 2015-07-25T22:26:42Z White_Flame: aeth: but you see, having to decide between attributes, subnodes, or body content makes XML so much more interesting! /s 2015-07-25T22:27:13Z aeth: White_Flame: WML doesn't have attributes afaik, so it's actually much easier to work with than XML in s-expressions. 2015-07-25T22:27:26Z aeth: Translating between the two should be next-to-trivial. 2015-07-25T22:27:58Z aeth: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/tree/master/data 2015-07-25T22:28:06Z aeth: Everything .cfg is WML afaik. 2015-07-25T22:28:49Z aeth: [foo] [/foo] stuff is like XML. {foo} stuff is "macros" because every sufficiently complex project partially reimplements Lisp in a slow way. 2015-07-25T22:29:09Z gremble quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T22:29:31Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-25T22:29:34Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-25T22:29:58Z aeth: If there is ever a language where a CL engine should (in theory) put a C++ engine to shame, it's something like this. 2015-07-25T22:30:35Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:31:01Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T22:31:31Z p_l: aeth: what CL could also do is provide easy way to build code that creates efficient drawing routines 2015-07-25T22:32:49Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:33:03Z aeth: I'm guessing that (1) some CL implementation that plays nicely with C++ will have to be used so a partially implemented game engine can be tested and (2) this fork will never, ever, ever be merged back into the main project because adding a new language will break compatability with 48 bit PowerPC Solaris or whatever strange legacy whatever they have a port to 2015-07-25T22:33:46Z kresk joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:34:36Z aeth: The goal would be to be able to read the data directory and the add-ons. So if WML is like HTML, then this would be like a new browser rendering engine. 2015-07-25T22:35:18Z Quadrescence: sometimes this channel produces the nuttiest ideas 2015-07-25T22:37:43Z aeth: Well, Wesnoth got me started programming a very long time ago, in WML of all languages. So of course I'd be interested in writing a faster WML engine, in Lisp. 2015-07-25T22:39:59Z rayest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-25T22:40:53Z aeth: And even though WML itself is probably no use for a new Common Lisp game project (why not just use s-expressions?), a lot of the necessary work to add semantics to the WML could be. 2015-07-25T22:42:26Z Quadrescence: do you have any applications in mind besides this abstract library 2015-07-25T22:42:31Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T22:44:21Z kresk left #lisp 2015-07-25T22:44:41Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:44:49Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:46:17Z guna joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:47:34Z aeth: Quadrescence: well, Wesnoth is a very large application that uses SDL (eventually will be ported to SDL 2) so writing a compatable port of this large application to Common Lisp really helps with e.g. #lispgames because it will be a major test of cl-sdl2 and other libraries 2015-07-25T22:48:41Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:48:51Z aeth: and while there would probably be no other users of the WML library, there could be users of e.g. the Lua one. 2015-07-25T22:48:56Z digiorgi: in a loop that generates lambdas like (loop for x in bar collecting (lambda () (something x)), there is a way to capture only the value, or a copy of x and not the reference? 2015-07-25T22:50:37Z aeth: There is nothing Lua-related in Quicklisp except for com.informatimago.languages.lua, which in my latest local copy says that it is unfinished. It's also AGPL so not many people would be using that anyway. 2015-07-25T22:51:28Z Quadrescence: digiorgi, (loop for x in bar collecting (let ((x x)) (lambda () (something x)))) 2015-07-25T22:52:11Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-25T22:53:34Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-25T22:54:46Z digiorgi: Quadrescence: thanks! That works!! 2015-07-25T22:55:49Z Quadrescence: :) 2015-07-25T22:56:02Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-25T22:57:17Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:01:23Z dmh joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:07:45Z Skrylar: ah lisp and games 2015-07-25T23:07:57Z Skrylar: i tried something like that with ecl a looong while back 2015-07-25T23:08:58Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:09:14Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-25T23:10:52Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-25T23:12:22Z dytrivedi quit 2015-07-25T23:12:32Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:12:41Z pjb`: Skrylar: #lispgames 2015-07-25T23:15:38Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:17:31Z Skrylar: pjb`: sadly work does not permit time to write games these days :( 2015-07-25T23:19:11Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:20:50Z CEnnis91 quit 2015-07-25T23:21:04Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:23:10Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-25T23:23:50Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-25T23:24:10Z c74d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T23:24:49Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:34:00Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-25T23:35:28Z admg quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-07-25T23:37:31Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:38:52Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:39:19Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-25T23:40:17Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-25T23:41:16Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:43:14Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-25T23:47:42Z futpib quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-25T23:47:56Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:48:22Z futpib quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-25T23:48:33Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-25T23:48:33Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-25T23:53:04Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T00:02:29Z bmk1st quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T00:06:32Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-26T00:06:32Z c74d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T00:06:58Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-07-26T00:09:49Z pjb`: Skrylar: you can write small games. Check: http://cliki.net/com.informatimago.hangman 2015-07-26T00:10:16Z pjb`: Those small classic games, you can write them in one evening. 2015-07-26T00:10:49Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-07-26T00:11:49Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T00:13:10Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-26T00:13:17Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-26T00:14:39Z aeth: I'm working on a game engine, hopefully it will one day make graphical games in Lisp trivial. Of course to do so means abstraction upon abstraction upon abstraction so... maybe in a few years, maybe in 10. 2015-07-26T00:15:17Z aeth: The things that will probably take forever are the physics and the networking. 2015-07-26T00:15:27Z eazar_neuralnets quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-26T00:16:44Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T00:16:50Z loz1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-26T00:17:30Z jebes: solution: don't solve all the problems 2015-07-26T00:17:38Z jebes: solve one, and solve it well 2015-07-26T00:17:42Z jebes: #unixlyfe 2015-07-26T00:18:02Z aeth: well, yeah, if by unix you mean modular 2015-07-26T00:19:32Z jebes: not even modular, just one tool for one job 2015-07-26T00:19:43Z jebes: something lisp libraries need to get bettet at imho 2015-07-26T00:20:19Z jebes: i guess that can be called modular 2015-07-26T00:20:58Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T00:22:07Z pjb`: aeth: can't you make it faster, buy applying Alan Kay's metaprogramming techniques? 2015-07-26T00:22:44Z aeth: pjb`: make what faster? 2015-07-26T00:23:54Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T00:24:12Z aeth: pjb`: do you mean faster as in the game running faster or faster as in program it faster? 2015-07-26T00:24:49Z pjb`: Developping faster. Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZmcmdsoAXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UOmItPa4iA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPavndhYxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9xLi0iJg1g https://vimeo.com/82301919 2015-07-26T00:25:15Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-26T00:26:01Z aeth: ah 2015-07-26T00:29:58Z jebes: i'm writing a voxel engine in lisp right now, but it compiles down to C... 2015-07-26T00:30:58Z aeth: Ah, my engine will eventually support voxels, but hopefully I don't need any C. I'm going to eventually stop using SDL2 too (maybe whenever there's a CLIM that's capable enough or something) 2015-07-26T00:37:31Z aeth: pjb`: are the 4 youtube videos the same as the other two links? 2015-07-26T00:37:55Z aeth: hmm, doesn't look like it 2015-07-26T00:41:16Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-26T00:45:05Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-26T00:45:10Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T00:46:23Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-26T00:47:26Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-07-26T00:47:29Z dmh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T00:54:26Z guna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T00:55:14Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-26T00:58:28Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T01:03:04Z vrrm joined #lisp 2015-07-26T01:04:03Z pjb`: aeth: at least not the vimeo link, which is different. They may be the same as the flash, but the flash also contains the "powerpoint". 2015-07-26T01:04:35Z pjb`: more info at http://vpri.org/ 2015-07-26T01:12:43Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T01:14:02Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T01:14:09Z Jaskologist_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T01:15:10Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T01:16:09Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T01:16:43Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T01:16:50Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T01:16:59Z k_dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-26T01:18:11Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T01:19:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-26T01:23:29Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T01:25:32Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T01:25:32Z aap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T01:26:48Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-26T01:27:52Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T01:30:47Z jebes: oh wow, that was a really good talk 2015-07-26T01:42:26Z badkins quit 2015-07-26T01:45:30Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T01:49:05Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T01:50:25Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-07-26T01:50:40Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-26T01:53:23Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T02:07:15Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-26T02:11:45Z gendl_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-26T02:15:06Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-26T02:15:11Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-26T02:15:47Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T02:16:43Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T02:22:16Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T02:27:11Z chu joined #lisp 2015-07-26T02:30:20Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T02:33:41Z drmeister quit 2015-07-26T02:33:56Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-07-26T02:47:41Z theos: nice 2015-07-26T03:05:48Z yeticry_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-26T03:06:13Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:06:16Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:15:29Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:16:10Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-26T03:16:11Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T03:17:21Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:19:47Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T03:21:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:21:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-26T03:21:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:22:37Z Dasyatid1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:24:20Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:25:20Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-26T03:25:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T03:25:52Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:28:46Z sstreptot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T03:31:09Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-26T03:35:38Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:38:44Z jibanes: all the lisp interpreters I've used have arbitrary precision integers, what is the underlying datastructure, strings, lists, etc? 2015-07-26T03:39:22Z echo-area quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T03:40:30Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:41:15Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:41:22Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-26T03:42:25Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-26T03:44:11Z nyef: jibanes: Typically, integers within a particular "small" range are known as FIXNUMs, and they're stored as immediate values. Beyond that you get into BIGNUM territory, and that tends to be a heap object, typically an array of "digits" in some large base (such as base 2^32) either in 2s-complement or sign-magnitude representation. 2015-07-26T03:44:33Z jibanes: right 2015-07-26T03:44:39Z jibanes: that's what I thought 2015-07-26T03:45:03Z nyef: For a really fun story, google for "most-positive-bignum". 2015-07-26T03:46:20Z jibanes: thank you 2015-07-26T03:46:23Z jibanes: nice indeed 2015-07-26T03:48:56Z jibanes: watching Alan now 2015-07-26T03:48:59Z jibanes: it is a good talk 2015-07-26T03:49:39Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:50:56Z akersof quit 2015-07-26T03:53:46Z aeth quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2015-07-26T03:53:58Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:55:02Z theos: morning beach 2015-07-26T03:56:40Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-26T03:57:34Z nyef: ... Hunh. 2015-07-26T03:57:56Z nyef: I think I just broke my github streak. 2015-07-26T03:58:09Z beach: How did that happen? 2015-07-26T03:58:27Z nyef: Spent the day doing other things. 2015-07-26T03:59:12Z nyef: 46 days isn't a bad run, though. 2015-07-26T03:59:33Z nyef: I'll just have to start a new one. (-: 2015-07-26T03:59:43Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-26T04:03:04Z brucem: I'm at 931 days ... It sometimes sucks to be a slave to it. But it kept me productive through bad times. 2015-07-26T04:04:10Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T04:04:13Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T04:05:23Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-26T04:06:49Z beach: As long as it helps you, why not. 2015-07-26T04:08:06Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-26T04:12:11Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-07-26T04:12:42Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-07-26T04:17:44Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T04:18:57Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T04:19:02Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-26T04:21:19Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-26T04:21:50Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-26T04:25:57Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T04:27:01Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-26T04:28:04Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-26T04:32:13Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T04:32:55Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-26T04:34:44Z keen__________31 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T04:35:26Z keen__________30 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T04:35:32Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-26T04:40:57Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-26T04:43:29Z jibanes: does lisp has some way to do array processing (like APL for instance) 2015-07-26T04:43:48Z beach: It doesn't have built-in operations for it. 2015-07-26T04:43:56Z beach: But they are easy to write. 2015-07-26T04:44:07Z beach: So there must be a library for it already written. 2015-07-26T04:45:41Z jibanes: thanks 2015-07-26T04:45:45Z jibanes: I thought so 2015-07-26T04:47:39Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-26T04:48:01Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T04:48:53Z beach: There is also this: https://common-lisp.net/project/gsll/ 2015-07-26T04:53:00Z jibanes: that's good, is there much statistical mathematics 2015-07-26T04:53:56Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-26T04:54:38Z jibanes: linear regression, correlation, descriptive statistics and all 2015-07-26T04:54:42Z beach: jibanes: http://cliki.net/Statistics 2015-07-26T04:54:53Z beach: It is more efficient if you search yourself. 2015-07-26T04:55:04Z jibanes: thanks 2015-07-26T05:03:05Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T05:10:37Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-07-26T05:14:04Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-26T05:19:01Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-26T05:20:54Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T05:23:18Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-26T05:25:23Z beach: jibanes: Are you just starting with Common Lisp? 2015-07-26T05:26:22Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-07-26T05:27:24Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-26T05:35:16Z lisp-noob joined #lisp 2015-07-26T05:38:09Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-26T05:42:42Z akersof quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-26T05:43:38Z clique is now known as elucevanlestelle 2015-07-26T05:43:40Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-26T05:45:17Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T05:49:53Z les quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-26T05:53:45Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-07-26T05:53:57Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T05:56:21Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-26T05:57:36Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T05:57:50Z jibanes: beach: I've used it at school, 10+ years ago 2015-07-26T05:57:58Z jibanes: but never since 2015-07-26T05:58:11Z jibanes: CL was mendatory track 2015-07-26T05:58:37Z jibanes: idk if that's still the case. 2015-07-26T06:00:23Z jibanes: I would think it still is, although it might have been replaced by clojure, I'm not certain. 2015-07-26T06:00:33Z jibanes: I hope not, personally. 2015-07-26T06:00:54Z jibanes: but anything but algol-derivative is probably a good idea. 2015-07-26T06:01:58Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T06:02:25Z theos: jibanes it was a nice school if CL was compulsory 2015-07-26T06:02:58Z jibanes: there's worse. 2015-07-26T06:06:06Z jibanes: the teacher wasn't great, that's probably why I didn't pursue CL after school. 2015-07-26T06:06:07Z trig-ger quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T06:06:26Z beach: jibanes: What school was that? 2015-07-26T06:06:32Z jibanes: Epita in France. 2015-07-26T06:06:43Z beach: Oh, Didier Verna? 2015-07-26T06:06:48Z jibanes: nope 2015-07-26T06:06:51Z jibanes: I don't know him 2015-07-26T06:07:03Z beach: Right, he probably wasn't around 10 years ago. 2015-07-26T06:07:09Z beach: And I would think he is a great teacher. 2015-07-26T06:07:09Z jibanes: I graduated in 2001 2015-07-26T06:07:13Z jibanes: so I guess a bit more than 10 2015-07-26T06:07:15Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T06:07:19Z beach: Right. 2015-07-26T06:07:46Z beach: Now that Didier is at Epita, I think they still use Common Lisp. 2015-07-26T06:07:54Z jibanes: well, that's good 2015-07-26T06:08:12Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:09:05Z beach: In case you are thinking of installing Common Lisp, we recommend you install SLIME using Quicklisp. Otherwise, you might get incompatible versions. 2015-07-26T06:09:56Z jibanes: yeah I've been using SLIME 2015-07-26T06:10:01Z jibanes: which I find amazing 2015-07-26T06:11:58Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:12:12Z tmtwd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T06:13:34Z jibanes: I wish I had that in 2001 2015-07-26T06:13:41Z jibanes: then it was painful 2015-07-26T06:13:50Z jibanes: I mean, heh, 5mns of work. 2015-07-26T06:14:45Z beach: No point in looking back. Looking forward is more productive. 2015-07-26T06:16:25Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:16:54Z jibanes: can garbage collection be defered in SBCL? 2015-07-26T06:18:33Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:20:10Z beach: Check out SB-SYS:WITHOUT-GCING. 2015-07-26T06:20:43Z beach: As in (documentation 'sb-sys:without-gcing 'function) 2015-07-26T06:20:52Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:20:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:21:09Z beach: But why would you want to do that? 2015-07-26T06:21:29Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:22:11Z Skrylar: jibanes: eh yeah, i wish i did too :) 2015-07-26T06:22:46Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:23:05Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T06:23:19Z jibanes: wanted to measure gc overhead 2015-07-26T06:23:19Z Skrylar: i put off emacs for a looong time because of the default control map and i didn't speak lisp, came back because of slime and yasnippets, then you become sad when you have to work on non-lisp code :D 2015-07-26T06:23:34Z jibanes: yeah 2015-07-26T06:23:38Z jibanes: same here 2015-07-26T06:26:02Z jibanes: also I have a young child and I prefer to teach him a language with prefix notation 2015-07-26T06:26:13Z beach: GC overhead is quite low. It is probably lower than that of free() in a system without automatic memory management. The only time you need to worry about GC is if you need a very short response time. 2015-07-26T06:26:26Z jibanes: yup 2015-07-26T06:28:22Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:28:27Z Skrylar: i do kind of like the GC that nim used more than SBCLs; if only because they had an incremental gc you could use for predictably managing gc collections 2015-07-26T06:28:56Z jibanes: nice 2015-07-26T06:29:02Z jibanes: that's indeed good 2015-07-26T06:29:33Z Skrylar: in nim you basically replace sleep in a hot loop with gc_step and it acts as a sleep that does collection for X time 2015-07-26T06:29:48Z Skrylar: i think that was one frustration i had with ECL 2015-07-26T06:31:45Z jibanes: was the famous infocom "z-machine" interpreter originally implemented in lisp? 2015-07-26T06:31:47Z beach: There are some very good concurrent GC techniques now. The only problem is that the staff available to FLOSS Common Lisp projects is very limited. 2015-07-26T06:33:29Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T06:34:03Z jibanes: ah yeah it was 2015-07-26T06:34:03Z jibanes: neat 2015-07-26T06:34:04Z killmaster quit (Quit: Bye!) 2015-07-26T06:34:06Z jibanes: I didn't know that 2015-07-26T06:34:11Z jibanes: ZIL is short for Zork Implementation Language, a programming language developed by Infocom and based on MDL, which itself is a version of Lisp. 2015-07-26T06:35:30Z jibanes: haha 2015-07-26T06:37:17Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:37:19Z rritoch: join #abcl 2015-07-26T06:37:45Z beach: jibanes: There used to be a lot of mutually-incompatible dialects of Lisp. Luckily these days we have Common Lisp. 2015-07-26T06:37:53Z rritoch: err, sorry, that was a typo 2015-07-26T06:38:06Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:38:35Z jibanes: one lisp to rule them all 2015-07-26T06:41:30Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-26T06:43:33Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:43:40Z ben_vulpes joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:47:18Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:47:19Z rritoch: Hi, I'm looking at the man page for sbcl to get a feel for the normal lifecycle of a lisp app. What is the difference between (load/script) and core? I see the difference between load and script but I'm not sure about what the --core does. 2015-07-26T06:48:27Z H4ns: rritoch: most lisp applications are distributed as saved core image. the core image includes all compiled functions. 2015-07-26T06:49:08Z H4ns: rritoch: startup time of such applications is usually quick, only one or a few files need to be distributed and no source is required on the destination machine 2015-07-26T06:49:08Z rritoch: H4ns: Ok, so core is similar to a windows hibernate file? 2015-07-26T06:49:23Z H4ns: rritoch: if you will 2015-07-26T06:49:50Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:50:14Z rritoch: H4ns: I see your saying that they're compiled, does that imply the core's are implementation dependent? 2015-07-26T06:51:43Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:51:57Z rritoch: H4ns: Meaning a sbcl core will only work on sbcl, a clisp core will only work on clisp, etc. 2015-07-26T06:52:00Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-07-26T06:52:02Z H4ns: rritoch: very much so. often, the startup and runtime code is included into the resulting core image to yield an executable. 2015-07-26T06:52:49Z H4ns: rritoch: a core does not really "run on" an implementation, it is part of the implementation and includes all of the implementation's run-time library, as far as it is not part of the (usually small) kernel written in c or assembly. 2015-07-26T06:54:37Z rritoch: H4ns: Interesting, so if I produce a core for sbcl version a.b and then run it on version a.c than it should still work as it brings all the a.b version libraries with it, or will it just produce a version mismatch error? 2015-07-26T06:55:24Z rritoch: H4ns: Or is this again an "implementation dependent" behavior 2015-07-26T06:55:37Z H4ns: rritoch: as i said, the core file contains the implementation, so there is no way to "run" the core file of version x "on" version y 2015-07-26T06:56:33Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T06:57:58Z rritoch: H4ns: Ok, that seems a bit strict. Not having binary compatiblity between versions is something I truly dislike about python, but thanks you have fully clairified the issue. 2015-07-26T06:58:27Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-07-26T06:59:23Z H4ns: unfortunately, you don't seem to have understood. as core files are never combined, there is no issue of binary compatibility at all. 2015-07-26T06:59:39Z Dasyatid1: rritoch: I'd consider it more like: if you compile and statically link a C program, can you then "run it on" the next version of the C compiler? It's not really the same thing as in the world where the "interpreter" is more often presumed to be a component provided from the system. 2015-07-26T07:00:10Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-26T07:00:39Z rritoch: H4ns: I'm looking at the sbcl instructions and I can pass --core to the executable. As in python I may need to keep multiple versions of sbcl arround to execute cores produced by specific versions. As an example. 2015-07-26T07:01:45Z H4ns: rritoch: you're comparing apples and oranges. python does not have a core image, so the issue does not exist. if you're interested in compiled forms of libraries, then fasl files are what lisp has to offer and those are in fact not usually compatible across implementation versions. 2015-07-26T07:02:24Z rritoch: H4ns: I understand that python binaries are modules, where a lisp core is the entire system. 2015-07-26T07:02:38Z rritoch: H4ns: But the version dependency is comparable 2015-07-26T07:02:44Z Dasyatid1 left #lisp 2015-07-26T07:03:31Z H4ns: rritoch: please remind me to never try giving advice to you. thanks. 2015-07-26T07:05:23Z rritoch: H4ns: Why, because I know how to communicate? Restating your understanding of the situation is the best way to ensure that the person providing the information can verify that they have fully communicated their ideas. 2015-07-26T07:06:05Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:13:10Z rritoch: Dasyatid1: The key difference is that the operating system & cpu make up the interpreter, The operating system reads the compiled code, and executes it. In this case the interpreter (lisp) both compiles and executes code, it isn't handled by seperate systems. 2015-07-26T07:13:58Z rritoch: That brings up another key question. Is there a lisp that compiles directly to binary executable cores? 2015-07-26T07:14:41Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T07:14:46Z ben_vulpes: if you read further in the sbcl documentation, you'll find that it doesn't even "interpret" in the sense that i think you mean, instead it compiles everything provided to it on the fly. 2015-07-26T07:15:27Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:15:36Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:17:07Z rritoch: ben_vulpes: That is a bees nest that I prefer not to get into. It seems many programmers are emotionally attached to their chosen implementation and take offense if it's called interpreted, even worse if you can point out specific code in the system that can be considered interpreter code. 2015-07-26T07:18:16Z rritoch: ben_vulpes: I personally don't care too much about the implementation detail of interpreted vs executed, other than possibly the performance implications. 2015-07-26T07:19:43Z rritoch: ben_vulpes: I'm just trying to understand the lifecycle of lisp applications. 2015-07-26T07:20:18Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-26T07:21:09Z Guthur: rritoch: there is nothing in the spec that defines CL applications/programs outside the context of running CL system (implementation) 2015-07-26T07:21:10Z Guthur: ...from my understanding 2015-07-26T07:21:33Z Guthur: so implementations are very to provide, or not, so means to produce standalone executeables 2015-07-26T07:21:44Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:21:57Z rritoch: I suppose I can specifically state the situation I'm dealing with. I am making a system comparable to leiningen, for ABCL, and working on the packaging. As ABCL projects can be hybrid Java+CL applications the lifecycle needs to be variable. 2015-07-26T07:22:11Z Guthur: some of the commercial implementations may have more featureful approaches 2015-07-26T07:22:16Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:22:42Z Guthur: rritoch: well then do what fits best for the ABCL and the Java world 2015-07-26T07:22:46Z rritoch: Every produced jar needs to Main class to be executable, but a "pure" CL application would need it's own entry point. 2015-07-26T07:24:26Z rritoch: I want to match the CL lifecycle as closely as possible, and to do that I need to understand the non-implementation dependent aspects of the CL lifecycle. 2015-07-26T07:25:52Z Guthur: i think it was traditionally modelled on something akin to lisp machines, i.e. you start a lisp system and load the packages you need to carry out the relevant tasks 2015-07-26T07:26:05Z rritoch: I can see that load vs script are comparable but one exits, and one drops to REPL, so therefore I need some kind of variable, say "lifecycle-mode: [script|load]" 2015-07-26T07:26:12Z Guthur: "standalone" applications as you probably have in mind are not covered 2015-07-26T07:27:05Z rritoch: Guthur: Ok, so when you load a core, it will always bring you to a REPL. There's no "main" function which gets called automatically to start the application? 2015-07-26T07:27:26Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T07:27:50Z Guthur: read the implementation docs of the implementation in question 2015-07-26T07:27:52Z rritoch: Guthur: I suppose you can pass a --eval string to execute a certain function on load. 2015-07-26T07:27:54Z Guthur: i have not done it much 2015-07-26T07:28:13Z Guthur: we had a LW application that had something akin to a main function 2015-07-26T07:28:28Z Guthur: but I can not talk for SBCL or other implementations 2015-07-26T07:29:00Z Guthur: If you are looking for inspiration maybe look at LispWorks or AllegroCL 2015-07-26T07:29:36Z Guthur: those are commercial CLs and so have a vested interested in supplying the functionality you're looking for 2015-07-26T07:30:15Z tengonovia joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:31:08Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-26T07:31:30Z rritoch: I see, I think I have come up with a set of configurations which covers every possible case 2015-07-26T07:31:38Z beach: H4ns: Good choice. Very frustrating indeed. 2015-07-26T07:32:35Z rritoch: main: {some java class} ; required for self-executables \n lifecycle-mode: {script|load} ; optional, defaults to load \n lisp-eval: {form} ; optional, defaults to noop 2015-07-26T07:33:19Z tengonovia: java coffee is very good 2015-07-26T07:34:14Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:34:18Z ben_vulpes: rritoch: save-lisp-and-die gives you a handle for functions to call on boot. 2015-07-26T07:36:29Z rritoch: ben_vulpes: Ok, I think I see it, :toplevel, I also see the :executable option. Either way I don't believe ABCL provides a save-lisp-and-die, I'll need to ask them. 2015-07-26T07:37:56Z rritoch: I am pre-compiling all of the lisp files into fasl, but having everything pre-load like a core does is a feature I would like. Since it's implementation dependent I'll need to ask ABCL developers about it. 2015-07-26T07:38:41Z tengonovia quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-26T07:38:59Z rritoch: I was going to go with lazy loading, but pre-loading would probably be a better option in some projects, and it is something that I don't have a "model" for yet. 2015-07-26T07:40:08Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T07:41:18Z echo-are` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:41:36Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T07:47:32Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-26T07:48:38Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:54:48Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:54:55Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:58:25Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-26T07:58:25Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T08:00:08Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:02:31Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:04:40Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T08:06:00Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:06:45Z fredokun joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:10:22Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T08:10:48Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-26T08:12:20Z fredokun quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2015-07-26T08:16:18Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:16:36Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T08:17:02Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:18:38Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-26T08:19:20Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:21:33Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T08:25:42Z beepbeep_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:27:30Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T08:28:31Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:29:27Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:32:05Z beepbeep_: I'm reading The Little Schemer and figured I'd try to set up a little test suite. I found a package named lisp-unit and want to use that. The first thing I did was enter sbcl and run (ql:add-to-init-file). I assume this means quicklisp will be loaded every time I start sbcl. After that, I created a file called tls-test.lisp and wrote "(ql:quickload :lisp-unit)" on the first line. I think this 2015-07-26T08:32:06Z beepbeep_: works because when I run my file, I get some output saying "loading "lisp-unit". Next I loaded the file containing my defined functions and after that I wanted to define my first test. Here is my entire test file: https://gist.github.com/aaronmu/7a60b5af3fcb94c27c9d 2015-07-26T08:32:26Z beepbeep_: it says var "my-greater-than" is unbound which kind of makes sense 2015-07-26T08:32:41Z H4ns: beepbeep_: the little schemer is about scheme, and sbcl is common lisp 2015-07-26T08:32:46Z beepbeep_: yeah, I know 2015-07-26T08:32:53Z beepbeep_: doesn't really matter 2015-07-26T08:32:57Z H4ns: beepbeep_: aha 2015-07-26T08:35:23Z beepbeep_: I'll add some output to the gist 2015-07-26T08:36:43Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-26T08:37:28Z beepbeep_: hmz, I'm guessing lisp unit is not loaded correctly after all. When running (run-tests :all) I get an error saying that the function is undefined. 2015-07-26T08:39:59Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:40:20Z schjetne: H4ns: it does have footnotes where Scheme and CL differs, so it's applicable to Common Lisp as well 2015-07-26T08:40:55Z H4ns: schjetne: ah. 2015-07-26T08:42:49Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:43:32Z H4ns: beepbeep_: your test file does not know the unit test library because you're not using the unit test library package. 2015-07-26T08:43:53Z beepbeep_: I thought that's what ql:quickload does 2015-07-26T08:43:58Z H4ns: beepbeep_: therefore define-test is not defined, and the lisp assumes that it is a function. 2015-07-26T08:44:03Z vrrm quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-26T08:44:24Z H4ns: beepbeep_: it does not. i'd recommend that you use a text focusing on common lisp if you want to learn common lisp 2015-07-26T08:44:28Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-26T08:44:32Z H4ns: minion: tell beepbeep_ about pcl 2015-07-26T08:44:33Z minion: beepbeep_: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-26T08:46:59Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T08:47:31Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:48:03Z schjetne: beach: I've started implementing my file tagging system. The idea is to have a digraph of all the tags with edges from more general categories to more specific ones. All the user's files start out at the root node and can be moved along the edges interactively through a series of yes and no questions. I'll see if I can get it up on Github soon. 2015-07-26T08:48:32Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:49:28Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-26T08:57:54Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:01:36Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:02:56Z ggole quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T09:03:43Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:04:00Z beepbeep_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-26T09:07:04Z ggole quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T09:07:36Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:07:54Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:08:06Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T09:14:57Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-26T09:18:21Z elucevanlestelle quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T09:19:31Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:22:00Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:22:02Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:22:12Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:22:59Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T09:28:00Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-26T09:32:16Z jackdaniel: dim: splendid success, pgloader did load \o/ 2015-07-26T09:32:54Z jackdaniel: on ecl that is 2015-07-26T09:32:55Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T09:33:49Z clique: a googolplex of hurray! xd 2015-07-26T09:33:57Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:34:04Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:34:41Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for dim: I've succesfully load pgloader with ECL, I'll send pull requests to qmynd and pgloader until evening 2015-07-26T09:34:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dim when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-26T09:37:22Z ebrasca: hi 2015-07-26T09:38:00Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:38:21Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-26T09:38:31Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:41:03Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: hi 2015-07-26T09:41:30Z clique: hi :) 2015-07-26T09:41:46Z oleo: morning 2015-07-26T09:41:49Z eazar_idle_proce joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:42:22Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:42:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:42:41Z clique: good morning oleo 2015-07-26T09:42:47Z ebrasca: i have trouble with macros 2015-07-26T09:42:58Z eazar_idle_proce is now known as eazar_idle_proc 2015-07-26T09:43:08Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:45:37Z ebrasca: here code http://pastebin.com/H3gXZAc7 2015-07-26T09:48:24Z Quadrescence: ebrasca, do you really want a list of cond forms? 2015-07-26T09:51:31Z ebrasca: Quadrescence: i like cond but i don't need it 2015-07-26T09:51:39Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-26T09:56:05Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T09:57:05Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-26T09:57:31Z jackdaniel: given we have single-float and double-float, there is no way, that (class-of obj) ; will return class float, it will be either single-float or double-float, right? 2015-07-26T09:57:31Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-26T09:57:45Z jackdaniel: or something else if it's not float at all obviously° 2015-07-26T09:58:36Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-26T10:03:00Z beepbeep_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:04:10Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T10:04:10Z ronh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T10:04:15Z jackdaniel: (or short-float / long-float) 2015-07-26T10:08:26Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T10:16:50Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:17:00Z beach: schjetne: Sounds interesting. Let me know when you have something to look at. 2015-07-26T10:17:50Z sstreptot joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:18:43Z beach: jackdaniel: They are specified as types and not as system classes. 2015-07-26T10:19:05Z beach: jackdaniel: So any particular implementation may implement those types as system classes, but you can't rely on that. 2015-07-26T10:19:45Z beach: jackdaniel: FLOAT is specified as a system class, though. 2015-07-26T10:19:48Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:19:48Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-26T10:20:02Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-26T10:20:17Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:20:47Z beach: ebrasca: What seems to be the trouble? 2015-07-26T10:20:49Z hegel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T10:22:15Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:22:21Z jackdaniel: beach: thanks 2015-07-26T10:22:44Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:23:48Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:25:35Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-26T10:27:16Z ebrasca: beach: trouble are macro . I need unpack output of rules function ( i think ) 2015-07-26T10:28:41Z beach: ebrasca: It is hard to see what you are trying to do because the shape of the RULES variable is not known. Furthermore, you do some weird thing in the function RULES. 2015-07-26T10:29:15Z beach: ebrasca: (rule (pop rule) rule 'atom) rather than (rule (first rule) (rest rule) 'atom) 2015-07-26T10:30:14Z beach: Then in function RULE, you call the third argument VAR which suggests that it is a variable, but you pass it the symbol ATOM which is an unusual name of a variable. 2015-07-26T10:30:18Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-26T10:32:18Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T10:32:47Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:32:53Z beach: ebrasca: And of course, a name like L-SYSTEM is not giving the reader many hints about what it is supposed to do. 2015-07-26T10:33:11Z beach: The "reader" being a person this time. 2015-07-26T10:34:06Z beach: ebrasca: Having said that, I am known to be very dense when it comes to understanding people's code. Maybe others can help you more easily than I can. 2015-07-26T10:34:06Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-26T10:34:51Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:35:29Z ebrasca: beach: thx for all advice. 2015-07-26T10:36:08Z beach: Sure (for what it was worth). 2015-07-26T10:36:31Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:37:13Z ebrasca: Beetny: now I go to fix what i can 2015-07-26T10:37:16Z francogrex: what's the best library in terms of documentation so that reading the source code would allow one to learn more advanced lisp coding techniques beyond the elementary books? 2015-07-26T10:37:18Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:37:21Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:38:28Z beach: francogrex: Are you saying you want to look at Common Lisp source code that has documentation associated with it, explaining what it is doing, and that in order to learn more about Common Lisp? 2015-07-26T10:39:33Z francogrex: beach: yes something like that... 2015-07-26T10:40:10Z francogrex: it's one way to improve skills I am stagnating 2015-07-26T10:40:35Z beach: Any particular domain you are interested in or that you know fairly well, so that there won't be that communication problem? 2015-07-26T10:41:31Z francogrex: beach: yes I am interested mostly (but not exclusively) in optimizations; making code run fast, disassembly etc 2015-07-26T10:42:09Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:42:17Z beach: I meant the domain as in what the program is doing. Like are you interested in Compilers, Graphics, Databases, etc.? 2015-07-26T10:42:26Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T10:42:35Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:42:53Z beach: I wouldn't recommend (say) a computer algebra system to someone who know little about mathematics, for instance. 2015-07-26T10:42:57Z H4ns: francogrex: cl-ppcre should be rather interesting 2015-07-26T10:43:27Z francogrex: beach: compilers ok 2015-07-26T10:43:38Z francogrex: cl-ppcre ok 2015-07-26T10:43:53Z beach: francogrex: You might find something in SICL/Cleavir then. 2015-07-26T10:44:01Z francogrex: most of the time when I read src code I get confused 2015-07-26T10:44:01Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:44:05Z beach: Like how to translate S-expressions to ASTs. 2015-07-26T10:44:06Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T10:44:18Z francogrex: beach: ok will check that out 2015-07-26T10:45:05Z francogrex: i get confused because marcos / functions rae used yet their definitions are elsewhere and honestly I don't know how to start 2015-07-26T10:46:08Z pjb` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-26T10:47:09Z beach: You know about M-. right? 2015-07-26T10:47:46Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:49:14Z beach: Put the mouse on a symbol, hit M-. and you will get the definition. 2015-07-26T10:50:10Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T10:50:20Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:50:27Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:50:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:51:43Z beach vanishes for a while, so he won't see the answer to his question right away. 2015-07-26T10:52:33Z White_Flame quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T10:53:12Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-26T10:53:21Z futpib quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T10:53:36Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:54:54Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-26T10:56:58Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:57:07Z jrm2 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:57:34Z lagging_` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:57:56Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:58:13Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:58:14Z kpg_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:58:34Z superjudge_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:58:52Z psy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T10:58:57Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:59:11Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T10:59:26Z joshmcmillan__ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:00:25Z easye` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:00:35Z soggybre1d joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:00:39Z c74d3 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:00:49Z jackdani1l joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:00:57Z lemoinem quit (Killed (sendak.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2015-07-26T11:00:59Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:01:53Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-26T11:03:07Z futpib quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T11:04:11Z ivan4th` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:04:25Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:04:44Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-26T11:04:48Z dlowe_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:04:57Z echo-are` is now known as echo-area 2015-07-26T11:05:49Z keen__________31 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:49Z c74d quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:49Z bb010g quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:49Z CEnnis91 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:49Z lagging_troll quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:49Z voidlily quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:49Z ASau quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:49Z pjb quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:49Z Neet quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:50Z faheem__ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:50Z XachX quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:50Z joshmcmillan_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:50Z ggherdov quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:50Z asedeno quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:50Z codeitagile quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:50Z soggybread quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:50Z superjudge quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:51Z switchp0rt quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:51Z loke quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:51Z __main__ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:51Z jackdaniel quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:51Z constantinexvi_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:51Z jrm quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:51Z easye quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:52Z fe[nl]ix quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:52Z dlowe quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:52Z ivan4th quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:53Z mearnsh quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-26T11:05:53Z jackdani1l: minion: memo for dim: You need latest commit from ECL, which adds support for specialization on double-float (Postmodern wants this). Both pull requests are made on github (pgloader and qmynd). You may grab ECL from git@gitlab.com:embeddable-common-lisp/ecl.git 2015-07-26T11:05:54Z jrm2 is now known as jrm 2015-07-26T11:05:54Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dim when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-26T11:05:54Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-07-26T11:05:54Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:05:54Z jackdani1l is now known as jackdaniel 2015-07-26T11:05:58Z dlowe_ is now known as dlowe 2015-07-26T11:06:16Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:06:19Z bb010g_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:06:22Z _main_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:06:46Z joshmcmillan__ is now known as joshmcmillan_ 2015-07-26T11:07:14Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T11:08:11Z superjudge_ is now known as superjudge 2015-07-26T11:09:02Z srcerer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T11:09:34Z bb010g_ is now known as bb010g 2015-07-26T11:10:00Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2015-07-26T11:10:43Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:11:11Z loke joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:11:40Z ggherdov_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:12:21Z keen__________31 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:12:26Z ggherdov_ is now known as ggherdov 2015-07-26T11:12:55Z XachX joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:13:52Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:13:55Z asedeno joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:14:24Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:14:31Z codeitagile joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:14:48Z Neet joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:14:50Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T11:15:50Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:16:23Z faheem__ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:18:48Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:19:53Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:31:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:36:15Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T11:37:16Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:43:38Z loz1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-26T11:45:35Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:48:24Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:55:12Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-26T11:55:27Z eazar_idle_proc quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-26T11:55:33Z pjb`: ebrasca: mappend doesn't do what you think it does. 2015-07-26T11:56:59Z pjb`: ebrasca: macros are never the trouble: they are mere functions. Write a function to generate the code you want, then hook that function into the compiler with a macro. 2015-07-26T11:58:41Z pjb`: ebrasca: read clhs append 2015-07-26T11:58:44Z pjb`: clhs append 2015-07-26T11:58:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm 2015-07-26T12:01:36Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-26T12:02:37Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-26T12:10:40Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:10:55Z Blkt_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T12:11:24Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:11:44Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:12:52Z beepbeepbeep_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:13:17Z kdas__ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:13:50Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T12:13:54Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T12:14:29Z beepbeep_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T12:15:07Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:16:48Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:18:21Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:20:50Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T12:28:02Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T12:31:12Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:31:51Z vrrm joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:38:23Z ebrasca: pjb`: thx , i think i don't understand macros : ) 2015-07-26T12:44:12Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:49:22Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T12:50:35Z ebrasca: pjb`: here improvement version http://pastebin.com/zUKRyqSM 2015-07-26T12:52:01Z kdas__ is now known as kushal 2015-07-26T12:52:11Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2015-07-26T12:52:11Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-26T12:52:57Z pjb`: ebrasca: CASE doesn't take rules, it takes clauses. Your rules are wrong. 2015-07-26T12:53:06Z pjb`: clsh case 2015-07-26T12:53:10Z pjb`: clhs case 2015-07-26T12:53:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_case_.htm 2015-07-26T12:54:43Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T12:56:15Z pjb`: ebrasca: explain: ((LAMBDA (ATOM) (CASE ATOM ((QUOTE A) '(A B A)) ((QUOTE B) '(B B B)))) 'quote) --> (a b a) ; with: 2015-07-26T12:56:16Z pjb`: ;Compiler warnings : 2015-07-26T12:56:16Z pjb`: ; In an anonymous lambda form: Duplicate keyform quote in case statement. 2015-07-26T12:56:16Z pjb`: 2015-07-26T12:58:06Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:00:28Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T13:00:31Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T13:02:19Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:02:27Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T13:02:46Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:03:13Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T13:03:37Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:06:09Z pegu joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:07:17Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-07-26T13:09:09Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-26T13:09:43Z pjb: ebrasca: so, do you see the problem? 2015-07-26T13:10:21Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:10:59Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:16:00Z beach: ebrasca: Here is another one you can try: (defun f () 123) and (let ((x 123)) (case x ((f) 555))) 2015-07-26T13:17:41Z madnificent joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:17:44Z bmk1st joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:18:58Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:19:03Z jack-zhang quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T13:22:16Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:22:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T13:27:19Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:30:22Z madnificent: I'm trying to send a 204 No Content in Hunchentoot, but it insists of supplying a non-zero content-length. Does anyone have experience with this? 2015-07-26T13:32:26Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T13:34:46Z pjb: ebrasca: http://paste.lisp.org/+39J6 2015-07-26T13:35:50Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T13:35:53Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:37:01Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:39:34Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-26T13:42:26Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:44:29Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:45:05Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-26T13:45:49Z beach: pjb: I think ebrasca must have vanished. 2015-07-26T13:47:29Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T13:49:58Z gremble joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:50:35Z pjb: Perhaps he's processing a physical interrupt signal. 2015-07-26T13:52:01Z beach: Hard to say. 2015-07-26T13:52:08Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-26T13:52:29Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T13:53:50Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-26T13:59:44Z ebrasca: pjb: thx 2015-07-26T14:00:41Z madnificent: glad to see you're back on #lisp beach 2015-07-26T14:00:46Z ebrasca: beach: thx 2015-07-26T14:03:03Z beach: madnificent: Thanks. 2015-07-26T14:03:25Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:06:50Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T14:15:20Z AndChat-432276 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:17:27Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:18:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:21:12Z AndChat-432276 quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-07-26T14:27:20Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:28:58Z bcoburn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T14:31:27Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T14:31:36Z Akshay quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-26T14:34:15Z ebrasca: pjb: i don't understand from where come this name ( mapconcat ) 2015-07-26T14:34:35Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:35:01Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T14:36:24Z madnific` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:37:08Z madnific` is now known as madnificent` 2015-07-26T14:37:30Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:38:06Z ebrasca: pjb: ping 2015-07-26T14:38:23Z madnificent quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T14:39:57Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T14:44:55Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-26T14:48:53Z Akshay joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:49:24Z karbak joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:49:25Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:52:47Z k_dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-26T14:55:46Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:57:09Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-26T14:57:23Z ebrasca: pjb: now i understand thx and bye 2015-07-26T14:57:47Z madnificent` is now known as madnificent 2015-07-26T14:57:49Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T14:58:25Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-26T14:58:53Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:03:15Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:03:57Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:04:46Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:07:10Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:07:30Z madnificent: I have fixed my issue. Wrong abstractions caused me to convert the response to a json string. I'm not sure that I fid it correct for hunchentoot to calculate the length of the response without sending the body's content, but my specific case has been solved. 2015-07-26T15:07:41Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:09:03Z lambda-smith quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:09:33Z tkhoa2711 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:13:04Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:13:30Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:14:15Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:15:11Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:18:35Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:18:56Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:22:38Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:24:14Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:26:17Z karbak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:27:05Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Weird in coding now, or make love, only two things push me away from IRC.) 2015-07-26T15:29:35Z beepbeepbeep_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:39:15Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T15:39:39Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:42:02Z cluck quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:42:39Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:44:06Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T15:46:29Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-26T15:48:32Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:49:19Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T15:50:26Z jack-zhang quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:52:03Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:52:52Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:54:28Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-07-26T15:57:10Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-26T15:57:15Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-26T15:59:02Z jrm left #lisp 2015-07-26T16:03:27Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-26T16:03:28Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T16:03:56Z lisp-noob quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2015-07-26T16:04:10Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T16:04:12Z lisp-noob joined #lisp 2015-07-26T16:06:19Z ham-peas joined #lisp 2015-07-26T16:06:22Z ham-peas left #lisp 2015-07-26T16:07:31Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-07-26T16:12:03Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-26T16:13:38Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T16:13:43Z `xaxes` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T16:19:29Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T16:20:02Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-26T16:23:00Z karbak joined #lisp 2015-07-26T16:27:30Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T16:27:46Z karbak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T16:27:54Z bmk1st quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T16:28:42Z bmk1st joined #lisp 2015-07-26T16:30:40Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-26T16:39:14Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T16:44:19Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-26T16:44:24Z nyef: Oh, for the... How'd the ethernet controllers on this thing end up with a PCI ID of 000f:0000 ? 2015-07-26T16:45:17Z sigjuice_: what libraries might I look into for manipulating a sexp that represents an HTML page? I would like to strip out things like <FONT>, remove whitespace only text etc. 2015-07-26T16:46:56Z jack-zhang quit (Quit: 离开) 2015-07-26T16:49:01Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-26T16:49:28Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-07-26T16:49:50Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-26T16:50:29Z eudoxia: sigjuice_: use plump 2015-07-26T16:50:46Z Shinmera: Hrm, not sure if Plump is the right thing for this 2015-07-26T16:50:49Z eudoxia: it has a `strip` function, and another one i don't recall, for doing that whitespace elimination you want 2015-07-26T16:50:52Z Shinmera: Why are they SEXPs? 2015-07-26T16:51:02Z eudoxia: they shouldn't be sexps 2015-07-26T16:52:15Z Shinmera: eudoxia: STRIP trims and removes empty nodes. TRIM only trims. 2015-07-26T16:52:39Z eudoxia: right, that's the one 2015-07-26T16:52:53Z Shinmera: Taking out tags that are non-empty doesn't have a direct function at this point 2015-07-26T16:53:07Z Shinmera: As in, splicing the contents back in 2015-07-26T16:53:19Z sigjuice_: plump-sexp:serialize is how I created the sexps out of an html page. I thought there might be some library that can transform trees that I can use on the sexp. 2015-07-26T16:53:20Z Shinmera: I should add a thing for that. 2015-07-26T16:53:51Z Shinmera: sigjuice_: Well if you used that it goes through the plump DOM already anyway 2015-07-26T16:54:03Z Shinmera: so before you pass it to serialize, call PLUMP-DOM:TRIM to trim the whitespace. 2015-07-26T16:54:21Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T16:54:22Z Shinmera: As I just said there's no direct function to do the splicing you want for properly removing occurrences of FONT and so on. 2015-07-26T16:54:34Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T16:54:40Z Shinmera: So you'll have to do something of your own for that, or wait until the next quicklisp release, I'm afraid. 2015-07-26T16:58:07Z sigjuice_: Shinmera: thanks. I tried a combination of STRIP and TRIM and things look much cleaner. 2015-07-26T16:58:24Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-26T16:59:58Z loz1: do cl implementations find out what symbols lambda uses and create new environment containing them only for lambda? 2015-07-26T17:00:38Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:01:05Z p_l: loz1: iirc lambda creates new lexical environment, always 2015-07-26T17:02:51Z lisp-noob quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T17:02:58Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-26T17:03:00Z loz1: p_l: ok, but this new environment must contain symbols used in lambda 2015-07-26T17:03:50Z loz1: the most simple way is to copy whole environment at lambda creation 2015-07-26T17:05:09Z loz1: but everything is bad in it, except simplicity) 2015-07-26T17:07:06Z p_l: well, lexical environment doesn't exist beyond compilation. You could just take a snapshot of current environment 2015-07-26T17:09:18Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T17:12:09Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T17:12:33Z hydan wonders if one day genera will be opensource 2015-07-26T17:14:13Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:14:39Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:16:02Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:16:12Z p_l: depends on definition of opensource 2015-07-26T17:16:58Z p_l: it is opensource in the pre-FSF way, I guess 2015-07-26T17:17:29Z p_l: but proper termination of copyright term and move to public domain probably won't ever happen except through lawsuit, because of Mickey Mouse 2015-07-26T17:18:32Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:18:34Z winny joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:18:40Z winny left #lisp 2015-07-26T17:18:44Z zacharias quit (Changing host) 2015-07-26T17:18:44Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:21:29Z tmtwd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T17:22:08Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:23:00Z hydan: p_l: I meant in "you can reuse (some) code" way, would bet this came up before, what does MM has to do with it? 2015-07-26T17:23:05Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:23:46Z yenda- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T17:26:49Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-26T17:30:01Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T17:30:29Z John[Lisbeth] joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:30:50Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-26T17:30:53Z yenda- joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:31:01Z John[Lisbeth]: I am on the learn lisp the hard way website, and I can't get to the next page in the tutorial 2015-07-26T17:31:11Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:31:11Z John[Lisbeth]: http://www.cliki.net/IRC 2015-07-26T17:31:22Z John[Lisbeth]: oops: http://learnlispthehardway.org/try-lisp/ 2015-07-26T17:31:26Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T17:31:53Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:33:04Z Shinmera: Maybe there isn't more 2015-07-26T17:33:15Z Shinmera: From what I understand LLTHW is still very much in its infancy. 2015-07-26T17:33:43Z John[Lisbeth]: Oh. What document would you recommend? 2015-07-26T17:33:47Z John[Lisbeth]: For someone who already knows haskell. 2015-07-26T17:33:52Z Shinmera: People around the block here usually recommend PCL 2015-07-26T17:33:58Z Shinmera: minion: tell John[Lisbeth] about PCL 2015-07-26T17:33:59Z minion: John[Lisbeth]: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-26T17:34:45Z John[Lisbeth]: Will that teach me functional lisp? 2015-07-26T17:34:54Z Shinmera: It'll teach you lisp 2015-07-26T17:35:02Z Shinmera: Whether you write functionally or not is your decision 2015-07-26T17:35:14Z John[Lisbeth]: Alright thanks. 2015-07-26T17:35:30Z Shinmera: But a word of warning beforehand: While CL allows you to write functional programs, it is not the only thing, and you should not try to use it as if it were. 2015-07-26T17:36:03Z Shinmera: Often times writing side effects is much easier, and you should not shy away from this on principle. Learn CL the way it's meant to be used and then form your opinion on it. 2015-07-26T17:36:37Z Shinmera: PCL will offer a good introduction on all the paradigms CL offers to you. 2015-07-26T17:37:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I will take your advice and use PCL first. I am trying to become more of a RTFM kind of a guy. 2015-07-26T17:38:15Z Shinmera: That's a good attitude. But the better attitude in CL is to try things out! 2015-07-26T17:38:49Z Shinmera: Unfortunately, getting a CL environment running is not all roses right now, so if you need help with that, don't be afraid to ask. 2015-07-26T17:41:19Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:44:32Z p_l: hydan: the copyright term extension acts in USA are usually referred to as "Mickey Mouse law" due to curiously preventing MM from coming into public domain, despite all its creators being, iirc, dead 2015-07-26T17:45:09Z Shinmera: Also Disney is very vicious about lawsuiting anyone that uses their characters in any way. 2015-07-26T17:45:36Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T17:45:43Z p_l: Shinmera: or characters they bought 2015-07-26T17:45:48Z jibanes: well of course... 2015-07-26T17:46:37Z p_l: the part where it perverts the very idea of limited monopoly as way to sponsor artists of course isn't considered with every extension ;) 2015-07-26T17:46:42Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T17:51:07Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-26T17:52:20Z Akshay quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T17:52:38Z John[Lisbeth]: CL environment? 2015-07-26T17:53:01Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:53:27Z eudoxia: John[Lisbeth]: the implementation+IDE 2015-07-26T17:53:57Z John[Lisbeth]: What I would be even more interested is some kind of interactive auto-compiling shell like GHCI is to haskell 2015-07-26T17:54:14Z eudoxia: right, that's what SLIME provides, an interactive REPL 2015-07-26T17:54:44Z eudoxia: now, mind you, don't think you have to learn emacs to use Common Lisp 2015-07-26T17:55:05Z eudoxia: i mean i spent quite a bit of time writing code in Sublime with an Emacs window running SLIME for the REPL 2015-07-26T17:55:48Z Shinmera: John[Lisbeth]: By lisp environment I'm referring to the usual setup of 'Emacs+SLIME+SBCL+Quicklisp'. While each of these components can be installed easily enough, the whole thing is not available as one complete package yet, except for Windows (see Lispstick) 2015-07-26T17:56:18Z John[Lisbeth]: I use vim 2015-07-26T17:56:33Z John[Lisbeth]: Or more typically I will alias the shit out of my shell 2015-07-26T17:56:50Z Shinmera: There's slimv, but you won't find many people that use it here. 2015-07-26T17:56:53Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T17:56:59Z nyef: p_l: The other horribly ironic part is that Mickey Mouse is, itself, apparently a blatant rip-off of an earlier cartoon character. 2015-07-26T17:57:01Z Shinmera: Alternatively you can run evil or something similar in emacs to make it more vim-y 2015-07-26T17:57:03Z John[Lisbeth]: Does slime have to run in a text editor? 2015-07-26T17:57:11Z Shinmera: Slime is an Emacs package 2015-07-26T17:57:38Z John[Lisbeth]: Well I guess I could learn emacs. I might as well since is one of stallman's most successful programs 2015-07-26T17:57:57Z John[Lisbeth]: I am on ubuntu 14.04 64 bit if that helps 2015-07-26T17:58:01Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-26T17:58:02Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T17:58:02Z Shinmera: Just don't push yourself out by trying to learn everything at once. :) 2015-07-26T17:58:07Z John[Lisbeth]: Though I would much rather just use docker 2015-07-26T17:58:19Z eudoxia: John[Lisbeth]: the reason you should use SLIME is its REPL is to the SBCL console REPL what the space shuttle is to a firework 2015-07-26T17:58:50Z John[Lisbeth]: Alright, do you guys know of any docker images ready to run slime? 2015-07-26T17:59:00Z eudoxia: i think i do, hold on 2015-07-26T17:59:09Z John[Lisbeth]: Preferably more bleeding edge 2015-07-26T17:59:24Z John[Lisbeth]: Preferably not Fedora 2015-07-26T17:59:35Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T17:59:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:00:06Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:00:12Z clique: preferably do not bother us xd 2015-07-26T18:00:57Z John[Lisbeth]: Well it's just I don't like fedora's build quality over arch. 2015-07-26T18:01:03Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:01:24Z eudoxia: ah i had trouble finding it https://registry.hub.docker.com/u/fukamachi/roswell/ 2015-07-26T18:01:40Z John[Lisbeth]: My favorite bleeding edge distros are debian sid, arch linux, and Ubuntu's current nonstable builds. 2015-07-26T18:01:40Z eudoxia: hmm this isn't quite this 2015-07-26T18:02:00Z eudoxia: that image ships a thing called roswell, which is for managing implementations 2015-07-26T18:02:13Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:02:38Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T18:02:45Z John[Lisbeth]: Wanna help me figure out what is wrong with my docker? 2015-07-26T18:03:03Z eudoxia: i'm not a docker expert but sure, why not 2015-07-26T18:03:27Z John[Lisbeth]: http://pastie.org/10313258 2015-07-26T18:03:34Z John[Lisbeth]: Ubuntu 14.04 64 bit. 2015-07-26T18:03:51Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:04:30Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:05:42Z eudoxia: is the docker daemon running 2015-07-26T18:06:02Z John[Lisbeth]: Hold on let me learn how to check then check 2015-07-26T18:08:10Z jackdaniel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T18:08:50Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:08:54Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't know, I am trying a different approach 2015-07-26T18:09:32Z madnificent: John[Lisbeth]: run apt-get update first 2015-07-26T18:09:57Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T18:10:43Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:11:04Z hydan: p_l: but what is in it for symbolics-dk? why keep extending it? it is not like they would lose any of their support contracts, which I am sure they have thousands of... 2015-07-26T18:13:17Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-26T18:15:04Z p_l: hydan: a) the extensions given by law do not require any application (unlike the original copyright act in usa, iirc) b) symbolics-dks isn't the copyright holder, but they can sell/support for $reasons 2015-07-26T18:16:32Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:17:06Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:19:38Z John[Lisbeth]: Hold on I am going to relog 2015-07-26T18:19:47Z John[Lisbeth] quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-26T18:20:41Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:21:27Z rritoch quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-26T18:21:34Z John[Lisbeth] joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:22:54Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:23:17Z John[Lisbeth]: I have it working now. The solution was sudo start docker 2015-07-26T18:23:21Z hydan: p_l: they say "Symbolics is ... which acquired the assets and intellectual property of ... Symbolics, Inc." on their website. 2015-07-26T18:23:38Z hydan: p_l: that made me wonder. but perhaps I should send them an email, #lisp seems like a poor choice for copyright law discussions. 2015-07-26T18:24:04Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:24:11Z hydan: p_l: thanks for the explanation 2015-07-26T18:24:19Z John[Lisbeth]: Once I have this image downloaded what command will I run to run the SLIME in docker: https://registry.hub.docker.com/u/fukamachi/roswell/ 2015-07-26T18:24:29Z karbak joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:28:05Z lisp-noob joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:29:04Z karbak quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T18:35:12Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:37:00Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:39:26Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T18:40:00Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-26T18:40:37Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-26T18:43:44Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-26T18:44:50Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T18:45:17Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T18:45:24Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-26T18:45:43Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:45:58Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:46:28Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:47:56Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-26T18:52:40Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:54:32Z hkgfhkfk joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:55:05Z c74d3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T18:56:53Z hkgfhkfk quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-26T18:57:41Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:58:56Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-26T18:59:07Z gendl_ quit (Quit: gendl_) 2015-07-26T18:59:29Z clique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anxdAcilnsM 2015-07-26T18:59:36Z clique: ops, wrong channel 2015-07-26T19:01:53Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T19:03:59Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:04:23Z John[Lisbeth]: I am in the docker instance of this image that was linked to me: https://registry.hub.docker.com/u/fukamachi/roswell/ 2015-07-26T19:04:25Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T19:04:27Z John[Lisbeth]: apparently it runs slime 2015-07-26T19:04:37Z Intensity quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T19:04:53Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-26T19:05:22Z John[Lisbeth]: There's no guide or anything, and i don't know the nick of the person who linked it to me 2015-07-26T19:06:12Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:07:02Z Shinmera: That would be eudoxia 2015-07-26T19:07:15Z mc40 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:07:17Z Shinmera: I don't know anything about it or docker, so I'm sorry I can't help. 2015-07-26T19:07:41Z eudoxia: yeah you're pretty much on your own with docker 2015-07-26T19:07:42Z Shinmera: I do have a project on my todo to create easy to use contained packages for a complete environment on all platforms, but alas I currently lack the time. 2015-07-26T19:07:46Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T19:07:51Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:07:53Z eudoxia: i use Vagrant at work to isolate the environments of all my projects 2015-07-26T19:08:02Z eudoxia: but for common lisp i keep everything on the real machine 2015-07-26T19:08:30Z Shinmera: To be honest by now you probably would have had your environment running on a local machine. 2015-07-26T19:09:05Z John[Lisbeth]: Lol well where did you get the link from? 2015-07-26T19:09:16Z jcpst joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:09:39Z Shinmera: install sbcl and emacs (24+) from your distributions package manager, follow the instructions on https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/, quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper, follow the instructions it prints out, start emacs. 2015-07-26T19:10:06Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T19:10:17Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:10:27Z John[Lisbeth]: I think I got it now. https://github.com/snmsts/roswell 2015-07-26T19:10:41Z John[Lisbeth]: Lol ubuntu's package manager will not have a recent enough version of SBCL 2015-07-26T19:11:57Z John[Lisbeth]: Next time I am just gonna download the arch image and then install slime in arch. It's probably in the AUR 2015-07-26T19:12:15Z Shinmera: I would not install slime from the distro, even in ARCH. 2015-07-26T19:12:22Z Shinmera: Quicklisp will do that for you just fine. 2015-07-26T19:12:45Z John[Lisbeth]: For now I just want something that is quck and easy to run with the least effort on my part. 2015-07-26T19:13:26Z lisp-noob quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T19:15:25Z jcpst quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T19:15:31Z Intensity joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:17:17Z rtoym joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:19:50Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:20:01Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-26T19:20:24Z Wojciech_K quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T19:20:33Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:21:42Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T19:22:47Z pjb: or character they actually stole, including Mickey Mouse… 2015-07-26T19:23:19Z eudoxia quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T19:23:24Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:24:34Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:24:44Z tumdum joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:25:10Z dan64 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-26T19:25:17Z pjb: loz1: 1- it's not cl:lambda that creates closures, it's cl:function. cl:lambda is a macro that expands to (cl:function (cl:lambda …)) 2015-07-26T19:25:25Z karbak joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:25:31Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:26:00Z pjb: loz1: 2- the symbols used to name the variables are irrelevant: they completely disappear from the compiled code (unless they are declared special to denote dynamic variables, but then dynamic variables cannot be enclosed in closures!). 2015-07-26T19:26:54Z dan64 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-26T19:27:06Z pjb: loz1: what happens is that indeed, implementations find _free_ _variables_ in the functions, and searches them in the lexical environment in outter scopes, to enclose them. 2015-07-26T19:27:12Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:27:22Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:27:40Z pjb: loz1: those closures definitely do not contain the symbols. Only the variables. 2015-07-26T19:27:48Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:27:57Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:28:46Z eudoxia_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T19:29:26Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: just wait a week or so, docker will be history, and the next best thing will be fad. 2015-07-26T19:30:14Z karbak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T19:30:33Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-26T19:31:35Z Guest93891 is now known as smithzv 2015-07-26T19:31:49Z smithzv left #lisp 2015-07-26T19:32:01Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:33:31Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't know man. There are so many companies backing docker right now: Microsoft, Ubuntu, Redhat, The Linux Foundation, Google, IBM... The list goes on 2015-07-26T19:34:00Z John[Lisbeth]: They have got some serious talent entering their project, and these companies want an industry standard for a container. 2015-07-26T19:34:08Z John[Lisbeth]: Not just a container but a software publishing platform. 2015-07-26T19:35:21Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:35:40Z John[Lisbeth]: Chroot jail is more stable and tested, but it doesn't have the features I want 2015-07-26T19:36:14Z CodyReichert quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T19:36:48Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:43:50Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-26T19:45:53Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-26T19:46:57Z beepbeep_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:47:09Z beepbeep_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-26T19:51:14Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:54:00Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-26T19:54:18Z karbak joined #lisp 2015-07-26T19:54:24Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-26T19:56:34Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-07-26T19:56:46Z ggole quit 2015-07-26T20:02:21Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:04:18Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-26T20:05:27Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:08:47Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-26T20:09:49Z karbak quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T20:10:59Z AjaxCrixum joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:11:03Z AjaxCrixum quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-26T20:12:02Z AjaxCrixum joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:12:53Z AjaxCrixum quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-26T20:13:17Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-26T20:13:37Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:13:50Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:14:55Z AjaxCrixum joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:15:09Z AjaxCrixum: This is my first program in C: http://pastebin.com/bm1w2EmP 2015-07-26T20:15:47Z AjaxCrixum: I've heard that things done in C can be reduced by 50% in Lisp, so I was wondering how long would that program have taken in Lisp? 2015-07-26T20:23:24Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:23:45Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:25:06Z edgar-rft: Could you please translate the program to Lisp, because I can't read C. 2015-07-26T20:26:16Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-26T20:28:06Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T20:29:17Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T20:31:25Z clique: tl;dr 2015-07-26T20:31:42Z p_l: ... ehhh 2015-07-26T20:32:06Z p_l: AjaxCrixum: don't be discouraged from lisp, though your query here is rather rare 2015-07-26T20:32:28Z AjaxCrixum: clique: lol 2015-07-26T20:33:14Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T20:33:23Z clique: :) 2015-07-26T20:35:08Z p_l: lessee 2015-07-26T20:37:00Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:37:21Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T20:38:03Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:39:55Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-07-26T20:40:07Z knobo: a program full of printf does not get shorter in lisp. 2015-07-26T20:40:11Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:41:06Z knobo: printf is about as long as format 2015-07-26T20:43:11Z jason_m: AjaxCrixum: The Lisp program would be of similar length. Your program needs to be more complex before the expressiveness of Lisp begins to pay off. 2015-07-26T20:43:46Z John[Lisbeth] quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-26T20:44:24Z mc40 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T20:44:34Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:44:35Z ktt9` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:44:38Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T20:44:38Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T20:44:50Z mc40_ joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:44:53Z ktt9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T20:44:57Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:45:42Z mc40_ is now known as mc40 2015-07-26T20:46:09Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:46:14Z whiteline: how do i prevent implicit unquoting of symbols in scheme macros 2015-07-26T20:46:16Z jason_m: AjaxCrixum: The appendix at the end of this article gives an example of the expressiveness of Lisp: http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html 2015-07-26T20:46:59Z whiteline: i have no idea what this is called but it is the end effect 2015-07-26T20:47:55Z jason_m: AjaxCrixum: http://www.flownet.com/gat/papers/lisp-java.pdf is also worth a read 2015-07-26T20:48:52Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T20:49:28Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:53:37Z AjaxCrixum: jason_m: Ah, thanks for the links. 2015-07-26T20:53:52Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T20:54:32Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T20:56:59Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T20:59:47Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:02:37Z p_l: AjaxCrixum: well, I have a very untested (sorry, it's 23:03 here) direct translation of your program to CL 2015-07-26T21:03:29Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T21:03:38Z AjaxCrixum: p_l: Nice. 2015-07-26T21:03:50Z hydan left #lisp 2015-07-26T21:04:14Z k-stz: "Which brings us to the question why, if Lisp is so great, is it not more widely used?" answer: ai winter, wisdom of the crowds, performance prejudice *sigh* 2015-07-26T21:04:21Z p_l: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152333 <--- it's probably incorrect and buggy (and *definitely* unlispy etc. etc. etc.) 2015-07-26T21:05:02Z p_l: the very fact it took me so long points that I need to do some code katas ;) 2015-07-26T21:06:12Z k-stz: p_l nice, I was almost wanted to do it too 2015-07-26T21:06:56Z karbak joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:07:08Z dim: jackdaniel: thanks! 2015-07-26T21:07:24Z AjaxCrixum: p_l: 24 lines to my 72 for the same outcome? Nice! 2015-07-26T21:07:46Z p_l: mind you, I didn't bother with many things that *should* be there, like error handling 2015-07-26T21:07:55Z p_l: and it probably contains something that will make it not run ;) 2015-07-26T21:08:13Z AjaxCrixum: I forgot to include some instances of error handling myself :P 2015-07-26T21:10:01Z AjaxCrixum: I'm new to programming, so I don't know much about the history of the profession, but what made Lisp practically die if it was so great, especially in comparison to verbose languages like C, C++ and Java? 2015-07-26T21:10:30Z k-stz: AjaxCrixum: I wrote some reasons up there 2015-07-26T21:11:03Z AjaxCrixum: I know that the AI Winter resulted in a loss of funding or something (right?), but that shouldn't have caused it to fall so low if it was inherently a much more efficient and productive language than most, right? 2015-07-26T21:11:16Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:11:28Z p_l: AjaxCrixum: lots and lots of irrational reasons 2015-07-26T21:11:37Z p_l: software industry is not rational 2015-07-26T21:11:42Z p_l: and sometime, quantity wins too 2015-07-26T21:11:48Z karbak quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-26T21:12:05Z k-stz: and better marketing 2015-07-26T21:12:51Z k-stz: disclaimer: I wasn't there, I'm just reciting what I've read 2015-07-26T21:13:16Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-26T21:13:22Z p_l: also, Lisp meant garbage collection. Garbage collection was despised by many for many reasons (mostly folk tales, not real issues) for years 2015-07-26T21:13:55Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T21:13:56Z AjaxCrixum: So, languages like C, C++ and Java aren't really better than Lisp, but rather more marketable and quantifiable? 2015-07-26T21:14:12Z p_l: yup 2015-07-26T21:14:44Z p_l: also, greater supply of programmers who have internalized one language compared to programmers who can get up to speed with any language (and the former fit "replaceable cog" better) 2015-07-26T21:14:58Z p_l: then you had economy of the masses reasons involving libraries etc. 2015-07-26T21:14:58Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T21:15:52Z k-stz: related http://www.paulgraham.com/iflisp.html 2015-07-26T21:16:04Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:17:36Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T21:17:38Z ben_vulpes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T21:18:12Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:19:18Z k-stz: but lisp is not the only technology that doesn't adapt through Darwinian means, there is probably a book on this topic 2015-07-26T21:19:29Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:19:47Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T21:20:14Z k-stz: (and I want to read it) 2015-07-26T21:20:25Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:20:47Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T21:21:26Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:22:38Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T21:23:12Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:24:06Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-26T21:24:13Z paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T21:24:49Z Quadrescence: lisp doesn't seem to be adapting very well to many modern environments 2015-07-26T21:25:26Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T21:26:04Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:26:10Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-26T21:27:49Z p_l: often it's because the environment are designed specifically for certain language 2015-07-26T21:28:03Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T21:28:06Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:28:15Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:28:44Z p_l: (web, android, iOS) 2015-07-26T21:29:55Z pjb: whiteline: here we don't know scheme. Try in #scheme. Here we only know Common Lisp. 2015-07-26T21:31:35Z pjb: AjaxCrixum: what made Lisp practically die if it was so great, especially in comparison to verbose languages like C, C++ and Java, are people who ask "what made Lisp practically die if it was so great, especially in comparison to verbose languages like C, C++ and Java?" instead of writing lisp programs. 2015-07-26T21:32:59Z pjb: Quadrescence: and those environment are even more hostile to other languages than lisp! 2015-07-26T21:33:40Z pjb: Quadrescence: you just cannot write an Android application in another language than Java, because they don't even use the JVM, so you cannot use ABCL or one of the other JVM languages! 2015-07-26T21:33:52Z p_l: AjaxCrixum: also, consider how for some time between 2000 and ca. 2007? if you didn't have big resources, you "had" to use PHP if you wanted to make a web app. Nowadays it's not so, because a) environments changed BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, b) people wrote a lot of stuff that used ruby, python, etc. 2015-07-26T21:33:53Z pjb: Quadrescence: and lets not talk about iOS. 2015-07-26T21:33:57Z Quadrescence: Yeah. 2015-07-26T21:34:22Z p_l: pjb: on android you can use anything that doesn't depend on generating JVM bytecode at runtime 2015-07-26T21:34:35Z p_l: whether the end result is usable is a different thing altogether 2015-07-26T21:34:43Z pjb: Quadrescence: at least, in CL, you can write programs, in Fortran, in Python, in C, etc. 2015-07-26T21:35:16Z Quadrescence: what do you mean 2015-07-26T21:35:18Z pjb: f2cl, cl-python, vacietis, etc. 2015-07-26T21:35:40Z Quadrescence: :S 2015-07-26T21:35:47Z Quadrescence: most of those solutions are really half baked 2015-07-26T21:35:56Z pjb: Then bake them more! 2015-07-26T21:36:01Z Quadrescence: i would love to 2015-07-26T21:36:30Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:38:20Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:38:52Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T21:39:29Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:40:21Z gremble quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T21:40:31Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:42:09Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T21:42:53Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:45:34Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T21:47:07Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:50:03Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T21:52:29Z Ettore1 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:53:35Z Ettore quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T21:56:45Z xan_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T21:57:04Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-26T21:57:27Z loz1: AjaxCrixum: here is word-by-word translation to CL https://gist.github.com/maximvl/01cc027730fd8c656b56 2015-07-26T21:57:46Z kristof: But it doesn't answer his question 2015-07-26T21:58:18Z kristof: AjaxCrixum: When people talk about that kind of efficiency and reduction, they're not talking about simple things like opening files 2015-07-26T21:58:32Z loz1: kristof: > I was wondering how long would that program have taken in Lisp? 2015-07-26T21:58:51Z loz1: kristof: its most direct answer to his question 2015-07-26T21:58:52Z kristof: loz1: Equivalent time 2015-07-26T21:59:01Z kristof: oh 2015-07-26T21:59:18Z vrrm: CL has come a long way in the 15 years interms of being a modern dev env, mostly thanks to emacs/slime, asdf and quicklisp. IMHO, the biggest problem remaining for is the lack of an integrated GUI env. The Symbolics presentation system and the corresponding ability to interact with data (and code) graphically still doesn't exist. 2015-07-26T21:59:48Z kristof: loz1: Sure, but the thing about questions is that they're asking A, but they're also asking implicit B, or there are nuances to the answer such that merely answering the question is misleading. 2015-07-26T22:00:28Z loz1: I think that first of all you shall provide code, then give a pointers to articles, essays, etc 2015-07-26T22:00:32Z kristof: AjaxCrixum: Do you know what a C macro is? They help you reduce code repitition by "copy and pasting" code. 2015-07-26T22:00:39Z kristof: *repetition 2015-07-26T22:00:53Z AjaxCrixum: loz1: Still much more succinct than the the C version. Nice indeed. 2015-07-26T22:01:00Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-26T22:01:13Z loz1: yep, this is the point 2015-07-26T22:01:30Z kristof: AjaxCrixum: A Lisp macro is quite similar in that it is a function which takes some code and generates new code. 2015-07-26T22:01:43Z AjaxCrixum: kristof: I can't say I do. I'm still a noob at C. 2015-07-26T22:02:10Z kristof: AjaxCrixum: Ah. :) Well do you want a long, well thought out answer as to the many ways that CL is better than C? 2015-07-26T22:02:16Z kristof: "Better". I mean more productive. 2015-07-26T22:03:37Z kristof: vrrm: SLIME does a liiiittle bit of that. For instance, it'll give you options you can click on in the debugger 2015-07-26T22:03:46Z AjaxCrixum: Yes, sure thing. I've already seen direct, concrete proof of it in loz1 and p_l's code. (Made me realize how much time I could have saved writing that file manager.) 2015-07-26T22:03:51Z AjaxCrixum: @kristof 2015-07-26T22:03:54Z kristof: Simply clicking on slots and being provided debugging options kind of blows my mind 2015-07-26T22:05:08Z AjaxCrixum: Tbh, I'm only learning C because I've constantly been told it's most in-line with what I'm interested in: embedded systems and security. 2015-07-26T22:05:15Z loz1: yep, my fm was runned and debugged with slime, reloading code, etc 2015-07-26T22:05:38Z kristof: AjaxCrixum: Then you will want to stick with C for embedded + security. 2015-07-26T22:05:54Z vrrm: kristof: That's true... In general the emacs environment has been been making slow but steady progress. 2015-07-26T22:06:24Z kristof: AjaxCrixum: If you do security separately, without the need to put it on some kind of microcontroller with 500KB of flash, then you would actually find that CL has better built in binary manipulation that C 2015-07-26T22:07:06Z loz1: kristof: C for security is really questioned 2015-07-26T22:07:23Z vrrm: GDB, for c, is a fully modern debugging envirment with frames for stack veiews, memory. 2015-07-26T22:07:33Z karbak joined #lisp 2015-07-26T22:07:45Z kristof: vrrm: Anyway, when you say interact with code and data graphically, do you mean like modern DEs like Eclipse, or something that has not yet been envisioned? 2015-07-26T22:08:34Z kristof: loz1: Do you mean security applications (crypto, permissions, etc.) or do you mean secure applications (I wrote a website with social security numbers in a database, no one will get the SSNs) 2015-07-26T22:08:39Z loz1: vrrm: but hey, I'm writing program in a text editor, not in debugger) 2015-07-26T22:08:50Z jebes: kristof: it means like you could on a lisp machine, anything you saw, you could inspect, debug, and edit, all while its running 2015-07-26T22:09:16Z kristof: jebes: Are you sure that's what he meant? 2015-07-26T22:09:42Z loz1: kristof: second one, without dangerous operations on memory and pointers cl is more secure 2015-07-26T22:10:03Z kristof: loz1: Pretty much every language other than C will not have that problem 2015-07-26T22:10:20Z kristof: loz1: People who stray from C++'s RAII are asking for exploits. 2015-07-26T22:10:24Z loz1: but talking about crypto there is ironclad, so 2015-07-26T22:10:49Z loz1: both ways are covered by cl 2015-07-26T22:10:58Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-26T22:11:51Z loz1 left #lisp 2015-07-26T22:12:07Z kristof: That was a weird conversation. 2015-07-26T22:12:16Z karbak quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T22:12:40Z vrrm: kristof: first I would say 'integrated' in both the old cadr machine and the Symbolics Mac I have, there were bugs in the current image. In bothe cases I was able to find the bugs, correct them, and recompile the image even though cadr zetalisp is quite different than CL and the sources for CL had to be reloaded. 2015-07-26T22:13:19Z jebes: vrrm: you have a cadr AND a Symbolics Mac? Nice! 2015-07-26T22:13:30Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T22:14:54Z vrrm: The cadr runs under emulation: http://www.unlambda.com/mit/ 2015-07-26T22:16:56Z vrrm: Actual code for the emulator is here: http://www.unlambda.com/download/cadr/ 2015-07-26T22:16:57Z kristof: vrrm: Oh, was that after someone posted about the old CADR sources last year? 2015-07-26T22:17:51Z vrrm: you can set up a chaos net gateway that allows you to copy files to and from via nfs. 2015-07-26T22:18:49Z vrrm: kristof: probably, MIT realeased it about 10 years. 2015-07-26T22:23:28Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-26T22:29:17Z jan-t joined #lisp 2015-07-26T22:29:46Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T22:38:19Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-26T22:41:06Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-26T22:43:42Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-26T22:45:15Z Korsi joined #lisp 2015-07-26T22:47:57Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-26T22:48:10Z karbak joined #lisp 2015-07-26T22:50:15Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-26T22:52:12Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-07-26T22:53:19Z kaleun quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-26T22:55:11Z jan-t quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T22:57:48Z AjaxCrixum quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-26T22:58:26Z Ettore1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-26T23:04:36Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T23:05:47Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-26T23:10:06Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-26T23:15:35Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-26T23:15:36Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T23:16:45Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T23:18:38Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-26T23:40:35Z mc40 quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 40.0/20150720220238]) 2015-07-26T23:42:38Z madnific` joined #lisp 2015-07-26T23:42:41Z ovidnis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-26T23:44:10Z madnificent quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-26T23:44:34Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-26T23:47:40Z madnific` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-26T23:50:43Z Rptx joined #lisp 2015-07-26T23:50:55Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-26T23:51:31Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-26T23:52:00Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-26T23:56:30Z karbak quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-26T23:57:08Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:00:52Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:04:38Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-27T00:05:20Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:07:44Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T00:07:59Z spyrosoft left #lisp 2015-07-27T00:12:05Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T00:15:23Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-27T00:18:36Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T00:23:25Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:28:16Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:34:11Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:34:39Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:36:41Z ben_vulpes joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:36:53Z ben_vulpes: is there a tidy way to (probe-file ...) on a remote host? 2015-07-27T00:38:51Z pillton: ben_vulpes: Not that I know of. Only variants of ssh remote-host /bin/test -f /path ; echo $? 2015-07-27T00:40:44Z ben_vulpes: pillton: thanks! i'll hold shelling out in abeyance for now. 2015-07-27T00:41:09Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:41:28Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:43:22Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-27T00:47:10Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T00:49:32Z aeth: Is there any non-toy database in Lisp? Most of the databases here are just layers on top of some other one (which is probably the smart thing to do anyway). http://cliki.net/Database 2015-07-27T00:49:56Z aeth: the problem with cliki though is that when there's this big list I have no idea if it's an active, serious project 2015-07-27T00:50:05Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:50:17Z pillton: aeth: Franz has one. 2015-07-27T00:50:37Z aeth: I *guess* this is the subset that's actually a database instead of an interface to one? http://cliki.net/ObjectStore 2015-07-27T00:51:22Z aeth: and also http://cliki.net/serialization 2015-07-27T00:51:54Z pillton: Active and serious are orthogonal. 2015-07-27T00:53:33Z aeth: pillton: which is why I mean (and (activep :project) (seriousp :project)) 2015-07-27T00:54:13Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-27T00:54:41Z pillton: You are missing the point. The axiom implies (not active) means (not serious). 2015-07-27T00:55:19Z pillton: I have projects which I am not actively developing that I still use for serious stuff. 2015-07-27T00:55:48Z aeth: Not necessarily, there are very serious projects that aren't active which means that potentially they're more work to get working in the first place. 2015-07-27T00:55:55Z aeth: (e.g. if they're pre-sbcl, do they even run on sbcl?) 2015-07-27T00:56:17Z aeth: by not active I mean e.g. abandonned 20 years ago 2015-07-27T01:00:04Z aeth: I guess I used the wrong word because something could have minimal patches since 2006 and still be OK. 2015-07-27T01:00:52Z pillton: aeth: http://franz.com/products/allegrocache/ is the one I was thinking of. 2015-07-27T01:01:00Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-27T01:04:19Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T01:04:34Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T01:07:35Z gendl_ quit (Quit: gendl_) 2015-07-27T01:11:04Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T01:14:12Z clique quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T01:18:12Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-27T01:19:05Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-27T01:19:14Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-27T01:24:08Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T01:26:28Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-27T01:26:48Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T01:27:29Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T01:28:25Z akkad: in 10 it's pretty nice 2015-07-27T01:37:41Z rritoch is now known as rritoch2 2015-07-27T01:37:42Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-07-27T01:41:40Z Rptx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T01:43:04Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T01:44:06Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T01:46:14Z jason_m: I'm working through "Lisp for the Web" (http://www.adamtornhill.com/articles/lispweb.htm) and hitting a compile error expanding parenscript:ps-inline: 2015-07-27T01:46:17Z jason_m: The variable PARENSCRIPT::SUPPRESS-VALUES? is unbound. 2015-07-27T01:46:55Z jason_m: anybody familiar with parenscript? have any suggestions? I tried setting it, but the variable is not exported. 2015-07-27T01:47:24Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-27T01:49:02Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T01:50:46Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-27T01:53:10Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T01:55:49Z arquebus joined #lisp 2015-07-27T02:00:08Z jason_m: i was able to set it (to nil) by jumping into the parenscript package 2015-07-27T02:05:43Z arquebus quit (Quit: konversation disconnects) 2015-07-27T02:06:54Z akkad: ahh sbcl? 2015-07-27T02:10:07Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-07-27T02:13:00Z jason_m: akkad: is that for me? Yes, I'm using sbcl (1.2.11-1) 2015-07-27T02:14:34Z akkad: k 2015-07-27T02:17:45Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-27T02:19:49Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-27T02:31:03Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T02:32:17Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-27T02:44:56Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T02:45:59Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T02:47:00Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T02:47:04Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-27T02:48:43Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-07-27T02:49:58Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-07-27T02:53:40Z jebes: stupid question: is there any way to "extend" the environment of a go and tagbody? 2015-07-27T02:54:01Z jebes: let me try using catch actually 2015-07-27T02:54:08Z pillton: jebes: Show an example of what you want. 2015-07-27T02:54:59Z spyrosoft quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-27T02:55:12Z jebes: (progn (tagbody foo (go bar) baz (more-code) bar (code)) (go baz)) 2015-07-27T02:55:25Z jebes: basically I want continuations :) 2015-07-27T02:56:05Z jebes: wait, I have an idea 2015-07-27T02:56:25Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T02:56:44Z jebes: yeah, I got it, thanks! 2015-07-27T02:56:59Z pillton: My pleasure. :) 2015-07-27T02:58:47Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-07-27T02:58:57Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T02:59:11Z psy_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-27T02:59:35Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T03:05:45Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-27T03:09:03Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-27T03:14:57Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-27T03:16:46Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-27T03:23:35Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-27T03:23:35Z LiamH quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-27T03:26:47Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-27T03:26:55Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T03:27:40Z cibs joined #lisp 2015-07-27T03:31:11Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-27T03:35:26Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T03:46:34Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-27T03:47:10Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-27T03:52:34Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-27T03:52:45Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-27T03:55:06Z theos: good morning beach 2015-07-27T03:55:44Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-07-27T03:56:22Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-27T03:59:44Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T04:00:56Z keen__________31 quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-07-27T04:00:57Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:01:02Z kaleun quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T04:01:30Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T04:01:43Z keen__________31 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:03:45Z pyon quit (Quit: I have irrefutable proof that D < 0. It follows trivially from 2D > 3D, which is obviously true.) 2015-07-27T04:04:21Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:04:59Z kawaii-imouto joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:05:05Z kawaii-imouto is now known as pyon 2015-07-27T04:05:13Z pyon quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-27T04:11:29Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:13:45Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T04:14:56Z oleo__: morning 2015-07-27T04:16:18Z beach: Hello oleo__ 2015-07-27T04:16:30Z oleo__: heya beach :) 2015-07-27T04:16:46Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:16:57Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-27T04:17:14Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-27T04:19:36Z ToeTag quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-27T04:20:42Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:21:06Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T04:21:31Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:21:37Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-27T04:22:03Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:25:15Z drmeister: Hello 2015-07-27T04:25:22Z theos: hi 2015-07-27T04:31:57Z beach: Hey drmeister. 2015-07-27T04:32:00Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:33:05Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T04:33:34Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T04:35:15Z keen__________32 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:36:46Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:37:50Z keen__________31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T04:38:37Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-27T04:57:26Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T04:59:04Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:05:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:09:18Z Pheeps joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:09:44Z loke: hellows 2015-07-27T05:11:02Z Pheeps: Were the Lisp machines (Symbolics, etc.) von Neumann machines? 2015-07-27T05:11:48Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T05:11:49Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T05:13:38Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:15:17Z loke: Pheeps: Yes 2015-07-27T05:15:19Z sstreptot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-27T05:15:30Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T05:16:28Z Pheeps: in the sense that von Neumann machines send "word-at-a-time" between the CPU and RAM . . . the von Neumann "bottleneck". 2015-07-27T05:19:14Z anachrome quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-27T05:19:33Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-27T05:19:46Z Zhivago: I don't think that's the bottleneck. 2015-07-27T05:19:57Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:20:06Z Zhivago: The bottleneck comes from competition for the bus by both data and code, afaik. 2015-07-27T05:20:11Z anachrome joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:20:34Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-27T05:20:54Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:23:10Z lisp-noob joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:23:19Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-27T05:24:20Z Pheeps: in terms of I/O, yes, you're correct. 2015-07-27T05:26:05Z theos: why not have a bigger bus? 2015-07-27T05:27:23Z Pheeps: At any rate, the von Neumann machines won out, it's the world today, any new architecture would be prohibitively expensive. 2015-07-27T05:27:37Z loke: Like this: http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/24500/Big-Bus-24770.jpg 2015-07-27T05:28:15Z scymtym__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T05:28:41Z Pheeps: It just made me wonder how Lisp—being a Functional Programming style language—handled the vN bottleneck. 2015-07-27T05:29:00Z loke: Pheeps: what makes you think it did? 2015-07-27T05:29:16Z loke: There was nothing magical about the lisp machines. 2015-07-27T05:31:33Z Pheeps: i thought maybe the Lisp machines were architected different than CPU registers --> bus tube --> RAM. 2015-07-27T05:31:47Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-27T05:32:35Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:32:38Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:32:41Z beach: Pheeps: Lisp is not a functional language 2015-07-27T05:33:03Z Pheeps: beach: you mean it's a hybrid? 2015-07-27T05:33:18Z beach: I mean it's a multi-paradigm language. 2015-07-27T05:33:53Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:34:08Z Pheeps: and isn't FP one of those multi-paradigms in Lisp? 2015-07-27T05:34:14Z beach: Sure. 2015-07-27T05:34:45Z Pheeps: ok, my poor words :) 2015-07-27T05:34:49Z beach: But Lisp has basically the same structure as other languages, so it has the same characteristics when it comes to the processor. 2015-07-27T05:35:32Z Pheeps: Lisp is still a von Neumann language, eh? 2015-07-27T05:36:21Z beach: What is a "von Neumann language"? 2015-07-27T05:39:30Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T05:40:06Z loke: beach: Well, the ENIAC wires are non-von-neumann :-) 2015-07-27T05:40:18Z loke: I'm sure we all want to go back to that. 2015-07-27T05:40:37Z loke: https://fortunedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/isa06_7.jpg?quality=80&w=702 2015-07-27T05:41:25Z jibanes: I doubt it 2015-07-27T05:41:27Z Skrylar: i'm with beach; what makes a language specific to von-neuman architectrures? 2015-07-27T05:41:50Z Skrylar: i'm pretty sure you could adapt s-expressions to some quantum-weirdness CPU 2015-07-27T05:42:22Z jibanes: or abacus 2015-07-27T05:45:06Z Pheeps: von Neumann languages are those constricted by following closely the von Neumann machine bottleneck; usually the Algol descended languages, or Pascal, Fortran, C, Java, etc. 2015-07-27T05:45:51Z beach: Pheeps: You speak nonsense. 2015-07-27T05:46:14Z Skrylar: now i'm thinking about TIS-100 and its microassembly 2015-07-27T05:46:27Z Pheeps: ah, thank you; must be the new kids speak. :D 2015-07-27T05:48:22Z Skrylar: i know there's going to be a natural problem with languages since humans prefer thinking in linear lists, so anything that doesn't work in a linear one-at-a-time way is going to be biased against 2015-07-27T05:48:42Z Skrylar: (note how many professional programmers can't understand multi-threading) 2015-07-27T05:48:50Z Pheeps: beach: would the Wikip. quip ease your discomfort? 2015-07-27T05:49:02Z beach: Skrylar: Note how many professional programmers can't program. 2015-07-27T05:49:29Z Skrylar: beach: i recently read that apparently only 10% of people can write a binary search ._. 2015-07-27T05:49:39Z jibanes: is it reasonable to assume that CL leaves too much freedom to the compilers? 2015-07-27T05:49:50Z beach: jibanes: No. 2015-07-27T05:50:00Z Skrylar: lisp isn't a systems language though, jibanes 2015-07-27T05:50:02Z loke: Skrylar: 10% of "people", 10% of "professional programmers" or 10% of "computer scientists"? 2015-07-27T05:50:19Z schjetne: jibanes: it's not reasonable to ask others to justify your claims 2015-07-27T05:50:23Z Pheeps: "Wikipdia states : "A von Neumann language is any of those programming languages that are high-level abstract isomorphic copies of von Neumann hardware architectures." 2015-07-27T05:50:41Z Skrylar: loke: https://reprog.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/are-you-one-of-the-10-percent/ 2015-07-27T05:51:10Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:51:20Z jibanes: interesting 2015-07-27T05:51:40Z Skrylar: that being said; the amount of compiler freedom is only relevant if you are writing a compiler or need specific bitcode 2015-07-27T05:51:46Z jibanes: I was just reading this from a paper from didier verna 2015-07-27T05:51:57Z jibanes: where he states: 2015-07-27T05:51:58Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-27T05:52:15Z loke: Anyone who's worked in the industry for a significant period of time knows that to be a true. 2015-07-27T05:52:29Z beach: Pheeps: With that definition, Lisp is a von Neumann language. 2015-07-27T05:52:31Z jibanes: "perhaps the CL standards leaves too much freedom to the compilers" 2015-07-27T05:52:47Z Skrylar: the worst thing for lisp IMO is that deployability is poor 2015-07-27T05:52:49Z jibanes: I imagine that's true if you don't know how to write code. 2015-07-27T05:52:59Z Skrylar: SBCL writes fast code, but shipping it to an end-user is.. less elegant 2015-07-27T05:53:22Z Skrylar: that's not a matter of the spec being well or poorly written 2015-07-27T05:53:25Z Pheeps: beach: m'k. I think it turns out to be a hybrid of sorts. 2015-07-27T05:53:51Z jibanes: yeah this article from didier verna seemed a little fishy anyway 2015-07-27T05:54:04Z Skrylar: some people are comfortable in algol-land because they don't like making decisions ;) 2015-07-27T05:54:11Z jibanes: that is true 2015-07-27T05:54:12Z schjetne: jibanes: there's no way to tell whether that's a reasonable statement for someone who hasn't read the paper. Too much freedom for what purpose? 2015-07-27T05:54:41Z jibanes: yeah it's only 6 pages though 2015-07-27T05:54:52Z jibanes: you should read his conclusion though 2015-07-27T05:55:02Z Skrylar: jibanes: having been in a dozen off-main language ircs/forums for a while, it becomes clear that a lot of people get tribalist about their language and anything that isn't that (usually C) is inferior because it isn't C 2015-07-27T05:55:13Z Skrylar: case in point, people joining the nimrod channel to complain that it didn't look like C 2015-07-27T05:55:34Z quazimod1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T05:55:35Z loke: Skrylar: What is nimrod? 2015-07-27T05:55:55Z Skrylar: loke: it was an attempt at a new generation language like D and such 2015-07-27T05:56:04Z Skrylar: basically looked like pythonized pascal 2015-07-27T05:56:13Z jibanes: sounds like a win win 2015-07-27T05:56:20Z loke: Skrylar: New genearing systems language on C's level, I presume? 2015-07-27T05:56:20Z jibanes: :) 2015-07-27T05:56:38Z Skrylar: loke: yeah. i used it for a while; it kind of tried to have lisp macros to an extent, and the GC was incremental 2015-07-27T05:56:54Z Pheeps: isn't the big payoff of Func. Prog. languages that programs are easier to understand, and that there are none (or fewer) side effects such as spurious aliasing in large programs? 2015-07-27T05:57:12Z loke: Pheeps: Not really. 2015-07-27T05:57:16Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T05:57:26Z Skrylar: i left when they started caving to C++ people though 2015-07-27T05:57:27Z loke: Well, "pure functional" ostensibly yes. 2015-07-27T05:57:33Z Skrylar: "oh no TSomeType is ugly i don't want to type T" 2015-07-27T05:57:38Z Skrylar: stupid things like that 2015-07-27T05:57:56Z Skrylar: it also had style insensitivity so (foo-bar) or (FOOBAR) were equivalent 2015-07-27T05:58:23Z loke: Skrylar: Oh, that sounds a bit painful actually :-) 2015-07-27T05:58:32Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-07-27T05:58:35Z Skrylar: never had a problem with it; actually, it solved quite a few 2015-07-27T05:58:51Z Skrylar: "is it filename, or file-name? i don't care." 2015-07-27T05:58:51Z Pheeps: i suppose FP languages have better orthogonality to machine state. But I'm just guessing. 2015-07-27T05:59:27Z loke: Lunchtime 2015-07-27T05:59:37Z Pheeps: bring back some 2015-07-27T05:59:48Z Pheeps: |) 2015-07-27T06:00:50Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-27T06:00:55Z schjetne: jibanes: sorry, I don't have every Lisp related paper in my head, and I have no idea what "this paper" by Didier Verna is (presumably he has written several). Also, your gut feeling isn't an adequate criticism of the paper, you have to actually address the arguments that it must be making. 2015-07-27T06:01:29Z Skrylar: jibanes: i think what we really need is an opensource/free vm that uses the code generators ahead of time and spits out exes; the biggest complaint i've seen is not that lisp is a bad language in any form, but shipping it usually involves taping an image on to an exe file; which is painful because the free ones don't have treeshakers and the commercial ones are not cheap 2015-07-27T06:01:40Z Skrylar: the actual quality of the assembly is usually pretty good 2015-07-27T06:05:05Z jibanes: franz and lispworks can compile right? 2015-07-27T06:05:29Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:05:55Z jibanes: yeah I like sbcl because it has mmap :) 2015-07-27T06:06:23Z antoszka: jibanes: They most certainly compile. 2015-07-27T06:07:51Z Skrylar: jibanes: thats a trap question in the lisp world :) 2015-07-27T06:08:05Z jibanes: how so? 2015-07-27T06:08:13Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:08:26Z Skrylar: jibanes: because compile in (lisp) means that they compile s-exprs to machine code, its not the pascal/c meaning which is "i get an exe" 2015-07-27T06:08:37Z jibanes: oh sorry 2015-07-27T06:08:42Z jibanes: right 2015-07-27T06:08:48Z Skrylar: for instance lispworks if i recall does compile to native code, but the produced exes are still the image taped to a runtime exe 2015-07-27T06:08:59Z jibanes: right 2015-07-27T06:09:32Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:09:35Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:10:03Z Skrylar: naughtydog and their newest incarnation get around that by usually writing their own inline assembler in a lisp 2015-07-27T06:10:19Z Skrylar: but that's.. a bit arcane for most people 2015-07-27T06:12:50Z jibanes: heh 2015-07-27T06:13:27Z Pheeps: The bottleneck in current machines is the single stepping of the program counter. Not in terms of machine execution speed, but in terms of how cumbersome programming languages result from that machine architecture. This is why threads control is such a bitch. 2015-07-27T06:14:34Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-27T06:15:14Z pillton: I am really struggling to see how the target architecture influences language design. 2015-07-27T06:15:40Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:15:41Z Skrylar: i'm not sure how thread control would be different from the programmers perspective either 2015-07-27T06:15:52Z Skrylar: we'd still ultimately have to write it in a linear way for us to be able to read it 2015-07-27T06:16:24Z Zhivago: Pheeps: Current machines don't have a single stepping of the program counter. Your thesis is fundamentally wrong. 2015-07-27T06:16:31Z Shinmera: Well you can 'write' programs with graphing applications 2015-07-27T06:16:47Z Zhivago: And even if you restricted yourself to machines which did, it would still be fundamentally wrong. 2015-07-27T06:17:11Z Zhivago: Programs do not run on hardware. They run in the virtual machines defined by the language specification. 2015-07-27T06:17:21Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:17:42Z Zhivago: The only issue is how efficient the realization of that virtual machine to whatever underlying hardware is, which is independent of the language and programs written in it. 2015-07-27T06:18:21Z Zhivago: e.g., the C Abstract Machine. 2015-07-27T06:18:29Z Pheeps: The writing line by line of a program is still line by line, but the order of execution that the programmer can have control over would be different with a different machine architecture. 2015-07-27T06:19:15Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:19:29Z Zhivago: Programs need not be line oriented, but that is irrelevant in any case. 2015-07-27T06:19:58Z Zhivago: Also, you are wrong -- the order of execution that the programmer can have control over is not different with a different machine architecture. 2015-07-27T06:20:16Z Zhivago: That is because the program is running in the virtual machine defined by the language specification. 2015-07-27T06:20:30Z Zhivago: And that is what determines the control the programmer can have over orders of execution. 2015-07-27T06:20:44Z spyrosoft left #lisp 2015-07-27T06:21:55Z Skrylar: Shinmera: true; we could do that now though 2015-07-27T06:22:31Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T06:22:52Z Skrylar: it would just be realized on a single core machine as a series of coroutines with yields input at some consistent areas by the graph compiler 2015-07-27T06:23:03Z Shinmera: Skrylar: There was a talk about such a system at ELS15 2015-07-27T06:23:18Z Skrylar: Shinmera: my question for that is whether it would help or not though 2015-07-27T06:23:19Z Shinmera: It looked impressive and interesting, but not particularly comfortable to work with. 2015-07-27T06:23:31Z Skrylar: most people also don't make flowcharts :) 2015-07-27T06:23:31Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-27T06:23:47Z Skrylar: i'm not sure if that is a non-enjoyment of flowcharts or they have a hard time fathoming in tree-space to begin with 2015-07-27T06:24:37Z Shinmera: I think it was called Full Metal Jacket. 2015-07-27T06:24:52Z schjetne: Too bad it was proprietary 2015-07-27T06:25:13Z Skrylar: somebody did do their dialogue for a game in yEd though :) 2015-07-27T06:25:40Z Shinmera: Here we go, the ELS slides in question http://web.onetel.com/~hibou/fmj/els2015-slides2.pdf 2015-07-27T06:26:29Z Pheeps: CPUs today perform out-of-order execution ... but that's at the machine level. What's desirable is that the programmer be able to program that way. 2015-07-27T06:27:04Z Zhivago: Pheeps: Nothing prevents them from doing so. 2015-07-27T06:27:05Z Pheeps: FP style languages approximate that way of programming, which is a plus. 2015-07-27T06:27:30Z Zhivago: Generally FP style languages do not reveal any such thing to the programmer. 2015-07-27T06:27:30Z ggole: Pheeps: dataflow programming languages have been around for quite a while now 2015-07-27T06:27:33Z soggybre1d quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-27T06:27:45Z Zhivago: As there is no order-of-execution in FP. 2015-07-27T06:28:03Z Skrylar: nodejs has a bit of that 2015-07-27T06:28:13Z Skrylar: everything is done as little blocks of async code 2015-07-27T06:28:21Z Skrylar: i should say 'written as' 2015-07-27T06:28:45Z Zhivago: Almost everything. 2015-07-27T06:29:08Z Skrylar: i didn't care for it 2015-07-27T06:29:11Z Zhivago: require, in particular, is synchronous, and there are synchronous versions of many file operations, etc. 2015-07-27T06:29:17Z Skrylar: even with coffeescript there's a lot of indentation levels for basic things 2015-07-27T06:29:31Z Zhivago: It's a good basis on which to build. 2015-07-27T06:29:40Z Pheeps: isn't it burdensome to have to keep track of machine state transitions, in languages like C? 2015-07-27T06:29:43Z Zhivago: Given asynchronous components, you can compose them freely. 2015-07-27T06:29:57Z Skrylar: now, what would be good is a defmacro that would allow you to write a linear instruction set while breaking it up behind your back 2015-07-27T06:30:10Z Zhivago: Wow, that sounds almost like an optimizing compiler. 2015-07-27T06:30:20Z Skrylar: :P 2015-07-27T06:30:27Z kanru quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.0.50.4) 2015-07-27T06:30:31Z Pheeps: i think it's burdensome, but it's so widespread that it's taken to be the norm: "That's how it's done; there's no other way to do it." 2015-07-27T06:31:00Z Zhivago: In C, it tends to be the cheapest option, since C lacks support for things like lexical closure. 2015-07-27T06:31:17Z Skrylar: Zhivago: the async workflow is less fun when its really basic stuff like "just push this data to mongo" and suddenly four async calls are involved 2015-07-27T06:31:25Z Skrylar: outside of that, its a nice design 2015-07-27T06:31:28Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T06:31:38Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:31:58Z Zhivago: Shrylar: That's why you have things to compose those calls into a coherent flow. 2015-07-27T06:32:19Z Skrylar: has that gotten better over time? 2015-07-27T06:32:20Z Zhivago: The important thing is that given non-blocking components, you can perform those compositions, which isn't true in the converse situation. 2015-07-27T06:32:25Z Skrylar: its been a loooong while 2015-07-27T06:32:34Z Zhivago: There are a whole bunch of them. 2015-07-27T06:33:03Z Skrylar: i haven't used it since it was unstable IIRC, so at the time it was just like, coffeescript if you wanted less pain 2015-07-27T06:33:12Z Zhivago: I think the promise interface seems to be the gradual winner. 2015-07-27T06:33:28Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:33:40Z Pheeps: which languages are "dataflow programming" style? 2015-07-27T06:33:46Z Skrylar: it might be possible to do something fancy with sweetjs now, too 2015-07-27T06:34:38Z Zhivago: pheeps: Ones which express operations as being contingent upon units of data being available. 2015-07-27T06:34:51Z Zhivago: You'll find dataflow libraries for most languages. 2015-07-27T06:34:54Z Skrylar: i think he wanted a name of a specific language 2015-07-27T06:35:04Z Skrylar: i think FMOD works like that in C 2015-07-27T06:35:21Z Skrylar: music and sound code tends to be data driven 2015-07-27T06:35:34Z Zhivago: Oz might be one. 2015-07-27T06:35:46Z Skrylar: i don't recall if elm does it, i think it might 2015-07-27T06:35:48Z Zhivago: Verilog, perhaps. 2015-07-27T06:35:59Z Skrylar: there's a few functional reactive libraries that let you block to events 2015-07-27T06:36:38Z Pheeps: i suppose multicore GPUs are just waiting to be fully exploited by programs other than games graphics. 2015-07-27T06:36:58Z Skrylar: like bitcoin miners? :P 2015-07-27T06:37:04Z Pheeps: lol :D 2015-07-27T06:37:26Z Zhivago: They're less useful than they may appear. 2015-07-27T06:37:27Z Skrylar: i think the science types are the ones who tend to need multicore processors, and those guys have access to mainframes and such 2015-07-27T06:37:29Z Firedancer: Isn't multicore CPUs still waiting to be fully exploited by programs :P 2015-07-27T06:37:32Z Pheeps: i saw a list of apps exploiting GPUs . . . short list, really. 2015-07-27T06:38:35Z schjetne: The loper-os.org idea of running Lisp on a dataflow machine rather than the other way around is interesting, sadly it has yet to produce results. 2015-07-27T06:38:59Z Skrylar: its a really weird way to program 2015-07-27T06:39:02Z schjetne: Instead of waiting for the FPGA, that sort of thing can be simulated to prove that it's even worthwhile 2015-07-27T06:39:13Z schjetne: In software, that is. 2015-07-27T06:39:37Z Skrylar: fpgas are neat 2015-07-27T06:39:46Z grizzlydeer joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:39:52Z Pheeps: "Dataflow architectures do not have a program counter, or (at least conceptually) the executability and execution of instructions is solely determined based on the availability of input arguments to the instructions, so that the order of instruction execution is unpredictable." 2015-07-27T06:39:58Z grizzlydeer: If I know scheme will learning lisp be easy? 2015-07-27T06:40:07Z grizzlydeer: (I know scheme, btw and want to learn lisp) 2015-07-27T06:40:13Z Skrylar: probably; if you know MIT level scheme then you've gotten over the hard parts 2015-07-27T06:40:17Z kaleun: i wish i knew something 2015-07-27T06:40:40Z grizzlydeer: skrylar: What do you mean by mit-level? Are you talking about sicp? 2015-07-27T06:41:05Z Skrylar: i mean actual scheme like actually knowing how to use call/cc 2015-07-27T06:41:22Z Skrylar: in that case the transition to lisp is just learning the things you can't do anymore and moving some syntax around 2015-07-27T06:41:23Z Zhivago: The order of instruction execution is predictable, in-so-far as the dataflow dependencies are known. 2015-07-27T06:41:54Z Skrylar: there's some scheme stuff that just doesn't fly in lisps, so you're actually moving to an easier language 2015-07-27T06:41:54Z grizzlydeer: So, it should be relatively simple then? 2015-07-27T06:41:57Z Skrylar: yes 2015-07-27T06:42:21Z Skrylar: though schemes do have native-to-shippable-exe compilers that are free, that is one thing you do lose with common lisp 2015-07-27T06:44:52Z Quadrescence: what 2015-07-27T06:45:03Z Quadrescence: Most lisps have an option to deliver a native shippable exe 2015-07-27T06:45:45Z Skrylar: Quadrescence: as an image taped to the runtime 2015-07-27T06:45:55Z Quadrescence: yeah, what's wrong with that? 2015-07-27T06:46:00Z Quadrescence: C has a runtime, Scheme has a runtime 2015-07-27T06:46:05Z Shinmera: Muh megabytes 2015-07-27T06:46:07Z Skrylar: chicken scheme and gambit make non-imaged executables 2015-07-27T06:46:09Z Pheeps: Zhivago: probably the smoothing of programming is in being able to declare "on data-1 do blah; on data-2 do foo", without having to track assignments, variables, etc. 2015-07-27T06:46:16Z Quadrescence: Skrylar, those require a runtime 2015-07-27T06:46:42Z Skrylar: i'm not interested in having that argument especially if memers are going to jump on it; just explaining that it is a difference between schemes and lisps 2015-07-27T06:47:02Z Quadrescence: Scheme requires, just as Lisp does, special methods for memory management, special memory layout, etc. 2015-07-27T06:47:17Z Skrylar: there are some environments like iOS where taping an image to the executable isn't allowed, for instance 2015-07-27T06:47:33Z Quadrescence: no, more precisely, what's not allowed is allocating new executable pages 2015-07-27T06:48:09Z grizzlydeer: So, Scheme and (Common) Lisp aren't that different then? Scheme and Common Lisp are both members of the Lisp family right? 2015-07-27T06:48:22Z schjetne: Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is the difference between an executable image and just an executable? 2015-07-27T06:48:48Z Pheeps: grizzlydeer: i think both are dialects of Lisp 2015-07-27T06:48:58Z Quadrescence: both are certainly Lisp dialects 2015-07-27T06:49:21Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T06:49:53Z schjetne: Because they all look alike to me 2015-07-27T06:50:11Z Quadrescence: Some schemes, like the ones Skrylar describes, are ones where functions are compiled to C functions (more or less), as opposed to being compiled and loaded into working memory 2015-07-27T06:50:21Z Skrylar: schjetne: one is machine code native to the CPU and the other is native to a virtual machine / interpreter being carried along with it 2015-07-27T06:50:34Z Pheeps: it's smileys all the way . . . :D 2015-07-27T06:50:39Z Quadrescence: Skrylar, No, that is false again. 2015-07-27T06:50:40Z schjetne: Skrylar: that's demonstrably false 2015-07-27T06:50:50Z Quadrescence: Common Lisp code is native, executable code, but is still usually "image-based" 2015-07-27T06:51:10Z Quadrescence: (almost all Common Lisp implementations produce native code, at least. Some don't, like ABCL or CLISP) 2015-07-27T06:51:17Z Skrylar shrugs. well when i used chicken it gave me object files i could link alongside c/c++ and sbcl doesn't do that, so. 2015-07-27T06:51:36Z Shinmera: Just cause you don't get object files don't mean it ain't no native code. 2015-07-27T06:51:41Z Quadrescence: Yes, that is different. Chicken compiles code to C, and your C compiler produces linkable object files 2015-07-27T06:52:21Z Quadrescence: Common Lisp produces native code, allocates executable pages of memory, and stashes the code there. Saving an image means serializing all of this memory to disk efficiently, and making it loadable again later. 2015-07-27T06:52:27Z Skrylar: i couldn't easily get an sbcl executable that i could static link with other libs at the time, which is something i wanted 2015-07-27T06:52:31Z grizzlydeer: Is this why most Lispers like Lisp?: “I object to doing things that computers can do.” — Olin Shivers 2015-07-27T06:52:33Z Skrylar: when that changes i'll look in to it again 2015-07-27T06:52:53Z grizzlydeer: Over other languages like C? 2015-07-27T06:52:55Z schjetne: So the definition is "being able to link with an arbitrary language" now? 2015-07-27T06:53:22Z Skrylar: forget it; people just want to argue and i have better things to do 2015-07-27T06:53:30Z Shinmera: Stop spreading FUD 2015-07-27T06:53:35Z Shinmera: and people won't try to argue with you 2015-07-27T06:53:36Z Quadrescence: Skrylar, You're right, you cannot statically link with C programs. You can however make a C program a dynamically loadable library, and call Lisp functions from within your C code. 2015-07-27T06:53:37Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:54:00Z Skrylar: Shinmera: being unable to solve a particular problem and pointing it out is not FUD 2015-07-27T06:54:19Z Shinmera: Skrylar: Misrepresenting the problem as something else that is not a problem is FUD 2015-07-27T06:54:23Z schjetne: You can do whatever the hell you like, but if someone hasn't provided you the tooling for it you have to do it yourself, it won't be done by bothering people on #lisp 2015-07-27T06:54:23Z Quadrescence: Skrylar, Check out the example here: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/callback-hell/src/181c515f9e010addd7a35dd4007c9690a3e5a463/test/?at=master 2015-07-27T06:54:47Z Skrylar: schjetne: implying i told anyone here to implement it? 2015-07-27T06:54:58Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:55:10Z Skrylar: all i said was its different in scheme versus lisp 2015-07-27T06:55:20Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T06:55:24Z Skrylar: i did not TELL anyone to DO anything about it 2015-07-27T06:55:40Z Pheeps: ok, "executable" means you can run it; "executable image" means you have to massage it before you can run it? 2015-07-27T06:56:04Z Quadrescence: Pheeps, You can invoke an image-based executable just as any other executable in Common Lisp. 2015-07-27T06:56:10Z Skrylar: Quadrescence: yeah, i did some of that when i used sbcl 2015-07-27T06:56:17Z Quadrescence: Pheeps, From an end-user perspective, there is no difference. 2015-07-27T06:56:36Z Pheeps: Quadrescence: 'k 2015-07-27T06:57:44Z Quadrescence: Skrylar, This produces a dynamic library in C that allows you to call a set of Lisp functions from C. 2015-07-27T06:57:57Z Quadrescence: The functions can even be re-defined within Lisp at runtime, and the C code will still work. 2015-07-27T06:58:18Z antoszka: Skrylar: If you want behaviour like you describe with Chicken, look at ecl. 2015-07-27T06:58:39Z Skrylar: Quadrescence: at the time i needed a static exe; but yes, i knew about cffi 2015-07-27T06:58:57Z antoszka: However being able to link with C does not make it any more executable than image-based implementations. Just different. 2015-07-27T06:58:58Z Quadrescence: Skrylar, This isn't just CFFI. CFFI does not provide that functionalityt. 2015-07-27T06:59:01Z Quadrescence: -t 2015-07-27T07:00:02Z Skrylar: antoszka: just forget about it. i used the longer description of exe in the hopes people would understand what i was trying to say instead of argue about it 2015-07-27T07:01:01Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:02:49Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T07:05:20Z yenda- quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T07:06:02Z Firedancer: Speaking of delivering exes to users, is there nowadays big consumer project that are written with Common Lisp? 2015-07-27T07:07:02Z Quadrescence: Firedancer, there are many 2015-07-27T07:07:14Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:07:59Z Quadrescence: Firedancer, a lot of police department fingerprint scanners and booking stations are written in CL. I only know that because I worked on it 2015-07-27T07:08:20Z Quadrescence: Gensym's G2... ITA's flight stuff 2015-07-27T07:08:47Z Quadrescence: auction servers, satellite terminals, lots of stuff 2015-07-27T07:08:58Z schjetne: Piano for the aircraft manufacturers 2015-07-27T07:09:12Z schjetne: Netfonds for trading 2015-07-27T07:09:43Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:10:27Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:11:21Z Firedancer: Okay, really interesting. Something like police department fingerprint scanner wouldn't had been something that I would have thought about at all 2015-07-27T07:12:07Z Quadrescence: Firedancer, there's some info i wrote about here: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.5625v1.pdf 2015-07-27T07:12:09Z Quadrescence: sorry for the typos 2015-07-27T07:13:07Z Firedancer: thanks Quadrescence 2015-07-27T07:13:48Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:14:26Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-27T07:14:39Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:16:02Z hocwp joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:17:21Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T07:18:33Z Skrylar: Quadrescence: neat 2015-07-27T07:18:36Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-27T07:20:10Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:21:54Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:23:46Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T07:23:48Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:24:35Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:25:06Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T07:27:59Z 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2015-07-27T08:01:53Z Fleurety joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:10:25Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:10:43Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-07-27T08:11:03Z balle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T08:13:10Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-27T08:14:11Z Cymew: morning 2015-07-27T08:14:38Z grizzlydeer quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-27T08:15:42Z Firedancer: o/ 2015-07-27T08:16:29Z loz: \o 2015-07-27T08:16:49Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:18:09Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:21:38Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:23:26Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T08:23:52Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:24:08Z balle joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:26:17Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:27:05Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:27:15Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-27T08:31:09Z grizzlydeer joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:31:49Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2015-07-27T08:31:54Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-27T08:32:01Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T08:32:49Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T08:34:19Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T08:36:02Z grizzlydeer quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-27T08:37:59Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:40:08Z Ettore1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:42:29Z Ettore quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T08:44:34Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:48:23Z Ettore1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-27T08:51:10Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:51:20Z dim: what's the trick already to get interactive debugger even on handled errors? 2015-07-27T08:51:50Z Shinmera: dim: What does that mean? 2015-07-27T08:51:57Z Shinmera: You can call INVOKE-DEBUGGER 2015-07-27T08:52:22Z dim: I mean like a special standard variable 2015-07-27T08:52:32Z dim: that inject a handler-bind or something and give me control 2015-07-27T08:52:47Z Shinmera: *break-on-signals*? 2015-07-27T08:52:50Z dim: ah yeah 2015-07-27T08:53:08Z dim: trying that, many thanks ;-) 2015-07-27T08:53:11Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-07-27T08:53:13Z Shinmera: That'll break a whole lot though, so it's not often useful. 2015-07-27T08:53:15Z dim: I guess my description of it was rather pool 2015-07-27T08:53:33Z dim: it's just for interactive debugging, I want to get into the debugger here even tho the error is handled by the code 2015-07-27T08:53:41Z Shinmera: Ah. 2015-07-27T08:54:06Z dim: is it the way you'd do it? 2015-07-27T08:54:35Z Shinmera: Usually I keep a special variable around that invokes the debugger on a condition if it is non-NIL 2015-07-27T08:54:56Z Shinmera: But that requires changing the code and is not always the best solution either. 2015-07-27T08:54:59Z dim: well my understanding is that *break-on-signal* is that variable 2015-07-27T08:55:13Z Shinmera: No, I mean, I have an explicit handler-bind that does this decision. 2015-07-27T08:56:20Z dim: bug found already ;-) 2015-07-27T08:56:43Z dim: I see what you mean, and I've just seen how *break-on-signal* is strange 2015-07-27T08:56:58Z dim: (in particular I did use (ignore-errors (parse-integer ...))) 2015-07-27T08:57:39Z Shinmera: parse-integer will return NIL if it can't parse when you set :junk-allowed to T. 2015-07-27T08:57:47Z fe[nl]ix: dim: what Shinmera said 2015-07-27T08:58:53Z H4ns: dim: you just discovered why ignore-errors is often a bad idea. 2015-07-27T08:59:23Z H4ns: Shinmera: it does not do the right thing if the string starts with a number but contains junk afterwards 2015-07-27T09:00:05Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T09:00:12Z H4ns: Shinmera: so in the end, parse-integer should often only be called after the input has been found to be a valid integer - alternatively, the second return value can be used to determine whether the string has been fully consumed. 2015-07-27T09:00:25Z H4ns: i find it rather amazing how badly designed parse-integer is, in the end 2015-07-27T09:01:40Z KingNato joined #lisp 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2015-07-27T09:11:30Z Ettore1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-27T09:12:07Z fe[nl]ix: H4ns: it's rare to be able to do without an expected input 2015-07-27T09:12:20Z fe[nl]ix: best-effort parsing is risky 2015-07-27T09:12:33Z ktt9` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-27T09:14:28Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-27T09:15:59Z fe[nl]ix: H4ns: I would normally decide what subsequence MUST contain an integer and not use :junk-allowed 2015-07-27T09:18:03Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-27T09:18:30Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T09:20:44Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-27T09:23:03Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-27T09:23:18Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-27T09:23:22Z rritoch2 is now known as rritoch 2015-07-27T09:23:57Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T09:24:39Z resttime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-27T09:24:58Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T09:29:37Z quazimod1 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host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T10:00:25Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:00:49Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:02:32Z Harag: is there a code checker for lisp in emacs that would find unused functions in a specified package? I am trying to hunt down old unused code in a project that has been morphed over a couple of years so there is legacy stuff that can be eliminated. So far I have been going through each code file with slimes cross reference functions and grep. 2015-07-27T10:02:50Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:03:05Z ronh quit 2015-07-27T10:03:54Z fe[nl]ix: Harag: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138963 2015-07-27T10:05:08Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:05:21Z Harag: fe[nl]ix: Thanx 2015-07-27T10:06:54Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:08:00Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:11:26Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:16:36Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-27T10:18:06Z pjb`` joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:18:19Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:18:53Z easye` joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:18:56Z c74d3 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:19:07Z trig-ger_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:19:21Z lacedaemon joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:21:57Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:57Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:57Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:57Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:57Z fe[nl]ix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:58Z trig-ger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:58Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:58Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:58Z easye quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:58Z keen__________32 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:59Z c74d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:59Z cadadar_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:21:59Z crypto joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:22:01Z z0d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T10:22:15Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:22:26Z crypto is now known as Guest79885 2015-07-27T10:22:54Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:23:01Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:23:27Z keen__________32 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:24:57Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:25:50Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:27:21Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:28:03Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:30:04Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:32:41Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:35:10Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:36:49Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:37:28Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:47:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:49:30Z keen__________32 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-27T10:49:43Z keen__________32 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:50:05Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:50:08Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:50:08Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T10:50:52Z tokik quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-27T10:53:05Z tokik joined #lisp 2015-07-27T10:54:17Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T10:55:34Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-27T10:57:54Z dim: H4ns: I knew already, but in that case, funnily enough, it's what allowed me to find and fix the bug ;-) 2015-07-27T11:00:09Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:01:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:04:55Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:11:11Z Guest79885 is now known as z0d 2015-07-27T11:11:17Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2015-07-27T11:11:17Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:11:36Z superancetre joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:11:57Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:12:56Z Pheeps quit 2015-07-27T11:14:10Z Harag: fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/+39KY , hacked that to do a bit more for me. 2015-07-27T11:14:37Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T11:16:51Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:17:36Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T11:18:20Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:18:29Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:19:46Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:21:20Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:21:22Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:22:45Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-27T11:25:01Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:26:15Z lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 2015-07-27T11:26:41Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:27:06Z fe[nl]ix: Harag: dont (setf unused (append unused (list sym))) 2015-07-27T11:27:34Z fe[nl]ix: (push sym unused) 2015-07-27T11:27:36Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:29:32Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T11:30:22Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:31:56Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:32:46Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T11:33:45Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:35:57Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:36:11Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-27T11:37:17Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T11:39:29Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:41:43Z jason_m: I just compiled a form which triggered the building of the C backend for Elephand / Berkeley DB. ASDF hit an error building the C sources. The error I get in the debugger isn't terribly helpful. Is there a way from within Emacs / Slime to get more info on the compile error? 2015-07-27T11:42:34Z Shinmera: Check *inferior-lisp* and the REPL itself. 2015-07-27T11:42:49Z Shinmera: If it's on neither of those you'll have to try to run the compilation manually to get at the compiler output. 2015-07-27T11:43:37Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-27T11:43:40Z Harag: fe[nl]ix: ok 2015-07-27T11:44:06Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:44:24Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:44:47Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:45:51Z jason_m: Shinmera: Manually compiling was my plan B. There is nothing in *inferior-lisp* and it looks like the last line in the repl was a message that it was compiling the package where the error was encountered. 2015-07-27T11:48:50Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-27T11:50:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-27T11:50:17Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:51:43Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:52:44Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T11:54:34Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T11:54:43Z jason_m: Shinmera: Is there a way to get the gcc command line that ASDF is trying to use? 2015-07-27T11:55:49Z antgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T11:57:08Z johann joined #lisp 2015-07-27T11:59:14Z fe[nl]ix: jason_m: Elephant is a bit unmaintained 2015-07-27T11:59:16Z Shinmera: jason_m: ASDF does not do C by default, so there must be some supplementary system in place that does it 2015-07-27T11:59:30Z Shinmera: I can't tell you anything other than to look at the source and pray it's comprehensible 2015-07-27T12:00:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:00:28Z jason_m: Not getting elephant to go isn't a real big deal, I'm just trying to finish the last step of http://www.adamtornhill.com/articles/lispweb.htm 2015-07-27T12:00:41Z Shinmera: Given that there's no compiler messages anywere, it means they must've been adding in extra effort to suppress that. 2015-07-27T12:00:47Z Shinmera: A decision which is beyond my understanding 2015-07-27T12:01:22Z jason_m: Looks like they put some stuff in an asdf file, built their own class that knows how to compile the C source. working through it. 2015-07-27T12:01:31Z jason_m: .asd file 2015-07-27T12:01:36Z Shinmera: A lot has changed since 2008 too 2015-07-27T12:01:49Z Shinmera: So I don't know how good that article is by today's standards 2015-07-27T12:02:19Z ihatenigggers joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:03:02Z fe[nl]ix: Harag: and (apply test (list sym)) is (funcall test sym) 2015-07-27T12:03:57Z fe[nl]ix: Harag: and the default value of a keyword arg is nil, so you don't need to specify it 2015-07-27T12:04:43Z fe[nl]ix: the same for a LET binding: (let ((foo)) ...) is the same as just (let (foo) ...) 2015-07-27T12:04:50Z smull quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T12:04:56Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T12:05:00Z Shinmera wants to write a book about making websites in CL, but he first has to write an entire specification for Radiance. 2015-07-27T12:05:50Z Firedancer: Radiance? 2015-07-27T12:05:57Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: A note on LET though, I like to specifically bind things to () or NIL depending on whether I want to signify that it's a list or an object later. 2015-07-27T12:06:27Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: I used to do that, but it's useless in the end 2015-07-27T12:06:38Z Shinmera: Firedancer: A web application environment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNbn99jGRk 2015-07-27T12:06:46Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: better choose good variable names 2015-07-27T12:07:06Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: I don't know. I like consistency within LET. 2015-07-27T12:07:08Z theos: Shinmera there are books like "lisp for the web" 2015-07-27T12:07:17Z Shinmera: theos: I am aware of that. 2015-07-27T12:07:25Z fe[nl]ix: the difference would matter if you want to port the code to a Lisp where the empty list is not a symbol 2015-07-27T12:09:20Z Shinmera: I'm not reddit or Yahoo, so I won't be thinking about porting my code away from CL any time soon. 2015-07-27T12:09:46Z Firedancer: Why Reddit and Yahoo? 2015-07-27T12:10:01Z Shinmera: Because they both did said thing. Reddit for itself and Yahoo for Viaweb. 2015-07-27T12:10:12Z theos: write a book on scalable and modular programming in CL 2015-07-27T12:10:33Z Firedancer: ou, I didn't know that they were originally written on CL 2015-07-27T12:10:54Z Shinmera: Viaweb was PG's infamous thing (see beating the averages). 2015-07-27T12:11:57Z smull joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:12:20Z jackdaniel: excerpt from wiki: "viaweb was also *unusual* for being partially written in the Lisp programming language." ^_^ 2015-07-27T12:12:38Z antoszka: haha 2015-07-27T12:13:19Z theos: looks like PG is the only one who made money with lisp :D 2015-07-27T12:13:19Z jason_m: Shinmera: A more modern book would be great, given how quickly new patterns and technologies spring up with web development! 2015-07-27T12:13:46Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T12:14:00Z Shinmera: jason_m: Indeed. Mostly I'd also like a book that explores multiple approaches. Most articles I've seen that discuss anything web just pick a particular framework or server and then basically do a tutorial on using it. 2015-07-27T12:14:21Z Shinmera: Which is... you know, less than useful if you're trying to make a choice. 2015-07-27T12:14:47Z jason_m: I'm just trying to get my hands on whatever I can. I've been learning my way around Lisp solving Project Euler problems. But there you really only learn to write algorithms. Next I need to tackle systems, CLOS, things of more complexity. Thus working through Lisp For The Web. 2015-07-27T12:14:53Z theos: Shinmera a book on how to make a CL server would be good too 2015-07-27T12:16:04Z Shinmera: jason_m: Are there no particular projects that you would like to undertake "in the end"? 2015-07-27T12:16:56Z Shinmera: theos: I don't know if that would be particularly useful. CL isn't very different in that regard and good servers already exist out there. 2015-07-27T12:17:57Z jason_m: I have a personal project in mind for "the end". I work as an actuary for my day job and want to write some modeling software. I started out using C++ a couple years ago and I think I coded myself into a corner and didn't really want to continue down that road. 2015-07-27T12:18:19Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-27T12:20:27Z Skrylar: there's always the old-school means of learning programming by writing games :) 2015-07-27T12:20:28Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T12:20:31Z peppermachete joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:21:04Z Shinmera: jason_m: My advice is to just get started on that 2015-07-27T12:21:28Z Shinmera: Break up your end project into smaller tasks: displaying models, loading them and storing them, adding an editor/interactivity, etc. 2015-07-27T12:21:45Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-27T12:22:15Z Shinmera: And then just get crackin' ? 2015-07-27T12:22:19Z Shinmera: *. 2015-07-27T12:24:59Z jason_m: Yes, sooner or later I need to get going. I'm just going to stew on it a little longer, look over more code, learn more about lisp (I haven't really explored CLOS yet, for example), to try to minimize the number of wrong turns or bad decisions I make early on. 2015-07-27T12:25:24Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:25:50Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T12:28:50Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T12:29:28Z Shinmera: I started with Radiance as my first project in Lisp. Since then I had to rewrite core parts of it a couple of times, but it was never a truly painful experience as it is in other languages I've known. 2015-07-27T12:29:59Z emlow joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:30:04Z loz: Shinmera: what are they, btw? 2015-07-27T12:30:09Z Shinmera: I guess what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't let that kind of fear hold you back too much. There's only so much you can plan in advance. You'll learn and discover a whole bunch of new things as you go, no matter what. 2015-07-27T12:30:16Z loz: i mean other languages you know 2015-07-27T12:30:36Z Shinmera: loz: Java, Python, mostly, though I've dabbled in a lot of other things as well. 2015-07-27T12:31:04Z pjb``: loz1: AjaxCrixum: shorter: http://paste.lisp.org/+39KZ 2015-07-27T12:31:32Z Skrylar: there is also emacs lisp which can be handy 2015-07-27T12:31:42Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-07-27T12:31:44Z Skrylar: since as you get better at lisp you can make your tools better 2015-07-27T12:32:23Z Shinmera: Did paste.lisp.org's CSS style sheet disappear or is that just me 2015-07-27T12:32:35Z loz: pjb``: nice, but what is *query-io* ? 2015-07-27T12:33:04Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: works here 2015-07-27T12:33:05Z loz: and I though there was function with prompt reading in CL 2015-07-27T12:33:19Z pjb``: C for security, right! Job security of security programmers :-) 2015-07-27T12:33:21Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: Weird. I'm getting a completely colourless version. 2015-07-27T12:33:25Z jackdaniel: jason_m: learn lisp the hard way - grok it :) 2015-07-27T12:34:01Z pjb``: loz: *query-io* is the I/O stream you should use to do interactive I/O, to ask the human user something and get an answer from him. 2015-07-27T12:34:18Z pjb``: *standard-input* and *standard-output* will usually be redirected to files. 2015-07-27T12:34:33Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: I keep another browser for the cases where I'm uncertain about what broke chrome/firefox 2015-07-27T12:34:37Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: opera or midori 2015-07-27T12:34:48Z pjb``: *query-io* can be different from *terminal-io* notably when you have a GUI. 2015-07-27T12:34:59Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: I'm using Opera currently but it started to fuck up for me just like Chrome did before I switched. Argh. 2015-07-27T12:35:21Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: of course Opera now uses Blink 2015-07-27T12:35:39Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: Well, I meant it started to fuck up as well, not in the same way as Chrome. 2015-07-27T12:36:21Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: For Opera the current issue is that it refuses to display file save/open dialogs after some time and I have no clue why. Closing it also leaves all opera processes lingering around indefinitely until I kill them. 2015-07-27T12:36:33Z Shinmera: But this is off-topic, so I'll cease my bickering. 2015-07-27T12:38:10Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:38:40Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:38:47Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T12:40:03Z loz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T12:40:25Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:40:25Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-07-27T12:40:25Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:40:42Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:41:25Z pjb``: minion: memo for aeth: there is a single ANSI Common Lisp standard, therefore a conforming CL program will always work on a conforming CL implementation. Even if that conforming CL program has been written one million years ago (and been fucking inactive since) and even if it's one a implementation that will be written in a million years from now (and that's fucking not being maintained righ now)! 2015-07-27T12:41:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell aeth when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-27T12:42:01Z fe[nl]ix: pjb``: that's not true 2015-07-27T12:42:28Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T12:43:46Z pjb``: fe[nl]ix: that's true, by definition of "conforming". Check the standard. It's mathematical. 2015-07-27T12:44:50Z jackdaniel: people rarely write in ANSI Common Lisp, because they depend on 3rd party libraries often (or build system for a matter of fact) 2015-07-27T12:45:01Z fe[nl]ix: ok, but the amount of stuff you can do with "conforming" code is very little 2015-07-27T12:45:15Z fe[nl]ix: "Conforming code shall not depend on the consequences of undefined or unspecified situations." 2015-07-27T12:45:17Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha 2015-07-27T12:45:23Z pjb``: jackdaniel: check com.informatimago.common-lisp ; what do you think the "common-lisp" means in com.informatimago.common-lisp ? 2015-07-27T12:45:41Z jackdaniel: pjb``: check other window btw :P 2015-07-27T12:46:46Z jackdaniel: and implementations grow older, because they are often designed to run on specific type of hardware/software stack 2015-07-27T12:47:21Z pjb``: And Von Neumann architecture is when you have the program stored in the same place as the data, so you can process the program code as mere data. In essence, lisp is the only Von Neumann programming language there is. 2015-07-27T12:48:00Z pjb``: The bottleneck is only a consequence, but inessential: there could be wider buses or buses for data and for programs (cf. eg. i-cache and d-cache). 2015-07-27T12:48:20Z jackdaniel: main() { const char xxx[] = "\012"; xxx(); } /* :) */ 2015-07-27T12:48:28Z pjb``: DSP and GPU are not von-neumann in general. 2015-07-27T12:48:34Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-27T12:48:57Z pjb``: jackdaniel: this is not "conforming" C. 2015-07-27T12:49:39Z pjb``: (declaim (not-inline f)) (setf (symbol-function 'f) (compile nil `(lambda (x) (1+ x)))) is conforming 2015-07-27T12:49:51Z jackdaniel: probably, wrote it in a form of joke, since executing shellcode can't be called even non-conforming "C", it's just a stream of bytes 2015-07-27T12:51:24Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T12:54:20Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:57:50Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:58:04Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-27T12:59:23Z pjb``: Skrylar: check this comparison, between Hangman written in Objective-C and written in Common Lisp; Notice any difference? The user either. http://snag.gy/6HaRA.jpg (even like this: http://snag.gy/BTbTc.jpg no user knows what that means). 2015-07-27T13:00:03Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:00:25Z jackdaniel: Hangman-lisp.app is a few pixels lower 2015-07-27T13:00:32Z jackdaniel: on first 2015-07-27T13:01:01Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:01:18Z jackdaniel: on some users may see difference between 90KiB and 60Mib on second 2015-07-27T13:01:32Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T13:02:03Z Firedancer: That hangman must have high resolution graphics ;) 2015-07-27T13:03:40Z jdz: do the users also notice that the hangman application contains a compiler? 2015-07-27T13:04:27Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:07:49Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:08:11Z pjb``: Skrylar: you are a filthy liar, common lisp also has native-to-shippable-exe compilers that are gratis, and furthermore free software. 2015-07-27T13:09:07Z eudoxia: woah guys let's not get upset 2015-07-27T13:09:24Z Shinmera: eudoxia: The channel's been pretty cranky all day. 2015-07-27T13:10:08Z Firedancer: Soon we will start calling each other's moms proprietary software coders 2015-07-27T13:10:53Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:11:28Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:13:37Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:15:10Z fe[nl]ix: Firedancer: knock it off 2015-07-27T13:15:54Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 2015-07-27T13:15:55Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:16:57Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:19:24Z ihatenigggers quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:20:07Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:20:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T13:21:21Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:27:25Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:28:02Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:28:28Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:29:23Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-27T13:30:23Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:31:13Z rritoch quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-27T13:32:17Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:34:43Z Skrylar: pjb``: i would be highly interested in looking at those if you have the project names for me to google 2015-07-27T13:34:45Z pjb``: fe[nl]ix: in general you cannot do otherwise than validate and re-parse to convert. would you start to convert an integer while reading "1234…" ? What if it turns out to be "123456-def"? (type-of (read-from-string "123456-def")) --> symbol 2015-07-27T13:34:52Z Skrylar: i know thinlisp was kind of that 2015-07-27T13:35:08Z guiloooo quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-27T13:35:16Z pjb``: I'm talking only about Common Lisp, this is a pure Common Lisp channel here. 2015-07-27T13:36:01Z pjb``: Skrylar: almost all of them: clisp, sbcl, cmucl, ccl, ecl; even for abcl they're currently working on generating executables directly. 2015-07-27T13:36:04Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:36:25Z Skrylar: i'll have to re-check sbcl some time 2015-07-27T13:36:34Z Skrylar: i did use ecl for a short time 2015-07-27T13:36:35Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:36:47Z eudoxia: Skrylar: e.g., i use http://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ to generate executables for ceramic.github.io projects 2015-07-27T13:36:56Z pjb``: There are actually much more deployment options with lisp than with C> 2015-07-27T13:37:43Z Skrylar: eudoxia: does it treeshake and such? 2015-07-27T13:38:19Z eudoxia: Skrylar: there is a treeshaker available for SBCL, but AFAIK is not on master 2015-07-27T13:38:24Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:38:24Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-27T13:38:24Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:38:29Z eudoxia: SBCL can however do core-compression, though that's not enabled by default 2015-07-27T13:38:32Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:38:57Z Skrylar: i looked in to trying to write a treeshaker a while back; wasn't really a task for a lispnewbie though 2015-07-27T13:39:14Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:39:18Z eudoxia: yeah, tbh i'm not really concerned about executable size 2015-07-27T13:39:23Z jackdaniel: Skrylar: other solution is to use cl-launch, which supports more implementations 2015-07-27T13:39:24Z ehu1 is now known as ehu 2015-07-27T13:40:50Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:42:13Z prphp joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:42:53Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:43:00Z pjb``: Skrylar: if there was money to be earned by making a tree shaker, we'd already done it. But the only thing that does, is make you lose time, and Intel and Samsung lose money. 2015-07-27T13:43:05Z Shinmera: eudoxia: the only tree shaker I've heard of for SBCL is now a decade old and probably never worked well to begin with. 2015-07-27T13:43:23Z Shinmera: eudoxia: So whether it still works at all and/or won't completely wreck your program is up in the air. 2015-07-27T13:43:31Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:43:44Z eudoxia: Shinmera: https://gist.github.com/burtonsamograd/f08f561264ff94391300 2015-07-27T13:44:08Z Shinmera: eudoxia: I was thinking of this one https://www.snellman.net/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html 2015-07-27T13:44:14Z pjb``: Skrylar: on the other hand, there may be a use for a global analysis program, that would not only tree-shake (that would be a secondary side effect), but that would for example perform a global type analysis and allow for the generation of even better code. 2015-07-27T13:44:32Z oleo: hello 2015-07-27T13:44:47Z pjb``: heloleo! 2015-07-27T13:46:53Z oleo: heyapjb! 2015-07-27T13:48:40Z pjb``: fe[nl]ix: the default value of a keyword argument is not always nil. The default default value is. But the function could specify another default value! 2015-07-27T13:49:02Z pjb``: fe[nl]ix: and with generic functions you could have a different default value for each method! 2015-07-27T13:50:26Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:52:07Z pjb``: I use (let (foo) …) only when I later initialize foo with setf. 2015-07-27T13:53:15Z akkad: is there a way to access the current function you are in? for use in say format? 2015-07-27T13:53:31Z pjb``: akkad: nope. 2015-07-27T13:53:33Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:53:37Z freehck: hi2all 2015-07-27T13:53:39Z pjb``: But you can write a define-function macro to do that. 2015-07-27T13:54:09Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:54:15Z pjb``: or (shadow 'defun) (defmacro defun … `(cl:defun ….)) 2015-07-27T13:54:25Z H4ns: akkad: not portably 2015-07-27T13:54:27Z Shinmera: akkad: You could analyse the stack frames (implementation dependant) and try to figure it out from there. 2015-07-27T13:54:28Z freehck: People, I see that there're push and pop functions, but I'm looking for some analog of shift. 2015-07-27T13:54:35Z Shinmera: akkad: dissect can help you with that. 2015-07-27T13:54:36Z pjb``: keep doing that and eventually you will (defpackage "MY-PGM" (:use "MY-LISP")) instead of "CL". 2015-07-27T13:54:49Z H4ns: freehck: rotatef maybe 2015-07-27T13:54:54Z pjb``: Notice that CLIM does that, redefining things like defclass and defmethod. 2015-07-27T13:55:08Z pjb``: So when you write a clim app, you don't use CL, but CLIM-LISP. 2015-07-27T13:55:26Z oleo: jep 2015-07-27T13:55:58Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T13:56:28Z jackdaniel: (defmacro adefun … `(let ((^name ,name)) …) maybe 2015-07-27T13:56:59Z pjb``: jackdaniel: depending on libraries with defined API is not a problem and leaves your conforming code conforming. 2015-07-27T13:57:02Z akkad: thanks 2015-07-27T13:57:20Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-27T13:57:46Z pjb``: jackdaniel: actually, this is something that people often forget to document. They document the "public" API of their library, but not the APIs their library requires of their dependencies. This is why software remains brittle. 2015-07-27T13:58:32Z pjb``: jackdaniel: if the dependencies API was specified and documented, then you could immediately see whether your Ariane5 would explode or not, right when you would consider using a library. 2015-07-27T13:59:23Z pjb``: In CL, we only have defpackage to do that. It's a little insufficient. We could use a define-module form with much more information about the provided api/features and the depended-upon apis and features. 2015-07-27T13:59:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T14:00:40Z freehck: H4ns: hm... how to use here rotatef? Usually I have a list '(a b c). After shift operation I wanna have a as a value and '(b c) in the list. 2015-07-27T14:01:15Z pjb``: jdz: in this case, they should not. Now, free software implementatins usually keep command line options to disable the toplevel function and drop into the REPL. So if you launched the executable from the CLI, you could drop into the REPL, modify the image and resave it. Instant patches. 2015-07-27T14:01:29Z jackdaniel: freehck: use pop function 2015-07-27T14:01:31Z H4ns: freehck: how is that not solved by pop? 2015-07-27T14:01:32Z jackdaniel: (pop my-list) 2015-07-27T14:01:32Z pjb``: jdz: let's consider it's an advantage. At least, it was for DS1 (RAX). 2015-07-27T14:01:38Z vrrm joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:01:39Z H4ns: jackdaniel: pop is not a function. 2015-07-27T14:01:44Z pjb``: jackdaniel: POP is not a function. 2015-07-27T14:01:51Z jackdaniel: jackdaniel: ok! 2015-07-27T14:01:55Z jackdaniel: anyway, use pop 2015-07-27T14:02:18Z freehck: aw... 2015-07-27T14:02:37Z freehck: push append elements to the begin of the list, yep? =/ 2015-07-27T14:02:47Z moei joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:02:55Z pjb``: yes, we'd say preppend. 2015-07-27T14:03:14Z H4ns: freehck: yes. there is no efficient way to manipulate the end of a list, so common lisp does not provide convenient operators for that. 2015-07-27T14:03:24Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-27T14:04:17Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-27T14:04:30Z Skrylar: i thought it was because pop would be equivalent to setf cdr which would be heinous to hide in a macro 2015-07-27T14:04:55Z pjb``: Skrylar: it's more complex than that, because: (pop (aref v (incf i))). 2015-07-27T14:04:55Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:04:59Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:05:12Z developernotes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-27T14:05:41Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:06:11Z jackdaniel: is there a term describing either function and macro? 2015-07-27T14:06:26Z jackdaniel: operator? 2015-07-27T14:06:56Z H4ns: jackdaniel: yes. 2015-07-27T14:06:58Z Akshay_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:07:15Z jackdaniel: ok, I'll try to keep terms straight (: 2015-07-27T14:07:17Z jackdaniel: thanks 2015-07-27T14:07:23Z H4ns: jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-27T14:07:26Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:07:27Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/operator 2015-07-27T14:07:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_o.htm#operator 2015-07-27T14:07:29Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:08:04Z fe[nl]ix: pjb``: in the case of Harag's function, if a default is absent for a keyword arg, it's nil 2015-07-27T14:11:35Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:12:21Z akkad hunts for IDS like CL software 2015-07-27T14:15:03Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-27T14:19:05Z ack006 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:21:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:21:57Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:23:43Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:26:26Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:29:44Z freehck: okay, I really need some queue library. I suppose I should use one of them. Can somebedy give me a piece of advice? ) 2015-07-27T14:30:10Z H4ns: freehck: do you need multiprocessing? then go for lparallel 2015-07-27T14:30:11Z Shinmera: what kind of queue? 2015-07-27T14:30:37Z freehck: Oh... There're different kinds of them? 2015-07-27T14:30:43Z pjb``: Yes. 2015-07-27T14:30:47Z pjb``: There are options. 2015-07-27T14:31:14Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-27T14:31:30Z freehck: I just wanted to have a "list" and some functions to put elements from one side of the list and to get elements from the other side... 2015-07-27T14:31:41Z pjb``: a simple FIFO may have unbounded memory usage. But in multi-threaded applications, you may want to limit the size of the fifo, and instead block the producer whenm it's full. and also block the consumer when it's empty. 2015-07-27T14:31:57Z pjb``: freehck: sometimes you want to be able to peek into the queue to take prioritary elements. 2015-07-27T14:32:28Z pjb``: sometimes you want to be able to add elements on both sides of the queue (a undequeue operation). 2015-07-27T14:32:39Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-27T14:32:54Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T14:33:48Z freehck: Okay, I got it's not such a simple question. I should read more and think a bit. 2015-07-27T14:33:50Z pjb``: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.queue com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.priority-queue com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.message-queue com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dll 2015-07-27T14:34:15Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:34:50Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:35:17Z pjb``: freehck: sometimes you have to implement a queue using two stacks, because it's a common exercise: http://paste.lisp.org/+39L2 2015-07-27T14:35:52Z pjb``: (and also efficient enough if your access patterns involve a lot of enqueuing followed by a lot of dequeueing. 2015-07-27T14:35:54Z pjb``: ) 2015-07-27T14:37:06Z pjb``: freehck: http://paste.lisp.org/+39L2/1 2015-07-27T14:37:41Z pjb``: Also, here we have queues using lists, but sometimes you want to enqueue in a vector. Then you implement a circular buffer in a vector. 2015-07-27T14:37:57Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:38:47Z pjb``: freehck: http://paste.lisp.org/+39L2/2 2015-07-27T14:39:03Z digiorgi: in a (loop for (x y) on some-list by #'cddr do...) is some elegant way to store where the cons is pointing in each cddr? 2015-07-27T14:40:05Z pjb``: (loop for (x y . rest) on some-list by #'cddr do...) 2015-07-27T14:40:39Z pjb``: or (loop for (x . rest) on some-list by #'cddr do...) if you want the cons whose cdr contains the rest. 2015-07-27T14:40:54Z johann: Ok, so I have this string-data (sjis from http) which is a bunch of lines with fields (split on the string <>) in them. In order to parse it, is it better to split it into lines, then use cl-ppcre, or try to use ppcre directly in some sort of loop? 2015-07-27T14:41:12Z pjb``: digiorgi: you may also want to consider maplist and mapcon 2015-07-27T14:41:16Z johann: Or do I have other options? 2015-07-27T14:41:38Z H4ns: johann: here is no absolute "better". if it is line oriented data, i'd split up into lines first. 2015-07-27T14:41:57Z pjb``: if the separators are simple, you don't even need regular expressions to parse them so you can use split-sequence. 2015-07-27T14:42:01Z johann: Alright, that seems sensible enough. 2015-07-27T14:42:08Z pjb``: One split-sequence to split the lines, and another in a mapcar to split the fields. 2015-07-27T14:42:14Z H4ns: johann: there is also cl-ppcre:do-matches 2015-07-27T14:42:17Z pjb``: may use split-sequence-if 2015-07-27T14:42:21Z johann: pjb``: split on the string "<>" - I can't use split-sequence for that. 2015-07-27T14:42:36Z johann: Think CSV where "comma" is <>. 2015-07-27T14:42:40Z pjb``: No, if the separator is two elements, #\< #\> then split-sequence can't do it. 2015-07-27T14:43:01Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:43:03Z johann: H4ns: Oh, right. I'll at least look at that. 2015-07-27T14:43:04Z pjb``: So use cl-ppcre, or manually SEARCH. 2015-07-27T14:43:32Z johann: Do you guys know what the first p in cl-ppcre is for? 2015-07-27T14:43:56Z dlowe: "portable" 2015-07-27T14:44:00Z johann: Ah. 2015-07-27T14:44:09Z H4ns: perl-compatible 2015-07-27T14:44:18Z pjb``: I've got a nice nsplit-list-on-indicator and nsplit-list pair of functions, but I've not implemented them for sequences, just for lists. 2015-07-27T14:44:26Z H4ns: ah, sorry, yes. 2015-07-27T14:44:51Z pjb``: Common Lisp Portable Perl Compatible Regular Expressions. 2015-07-27T14:45:07Z pjb``: And then people will complain on com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string. 2015-07-27T14:45:35Z johann: Is that a newsgroup? 2015-07-27T14:45:48Z pjb``: No, the name of one of my packages. 2015-07-27T14:45:52Z johann: Ah. 2015-07-27T14:45:52Z dlowe: well, the package name isn't common.lisp.portable.perl.compatible.regular.expressions, so I'm not sure they're comparable 2015-07-27T14:46:12Z pjb``: ;-) 2015-07-27T14:46:32Z dlowe: anyway, I would prefer java-style package names if we could just get package-local-nicknames supported everywhere 2015-07-27T14:46:48Z pjb``: dlowe: I assume it'll will come eventually. 2015-07-27T14:46:52Z pjb``: I'm prepared for the future. 2015-07-27T14:47:13Z pjb``: Possibly, when I have a little time I implement them myself. 2015-07-27T14:48:28Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:49:51Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-27T14:53:54Z ack006 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T14:54:13Z Ethan- quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-27T14:57:12Z akkad: postmodern is amazing 2015-07-27T14:57:18Z akkad: never thought I'd like an orm 2015-07-27T14:57:38Z johann: orm? 2015-07-27T14:58:10Z H4ns: akkad: it is a long stretch to call postmodern an "orm" 2015-07-27T14:58:20Z johann: What is an orm? 2015-07-27T14:58:31Z johann: I keep thinking of "worm" 2015-07-27T14:58:35Z dlowe: Object-Relational Model. Also known as the Primrose path 2015-07-27T14:58:41Z johann: Ah. 2015-07-27T14:58:48Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-07-27T14:58:53Z dlowe: It maps objects to db tables and attempts to manage updates between them 2015-07-27T14:59:17Z johann: I see. I don't really think of postmodern as such, either. 2015-07-27T14:59:36Z dlowe: but yes, postmodern is quite impressive 2015-07-27T14:59:43Z H4ns: i like it, too. 2015-07-27T15:04:18Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T15:05:23Z gendl_ quit (Quit: gendl_) 2015-07-27T15:05:31Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:05:40Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-27T15:06:25Z jackdaniel: no matter what readtable-case is, if something is escaped |blaBLA| it doesn't change a case, right? 2015-07-27T15:07:25Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-27T15:07:48Z pjb: jackdaniel: right, when read. 2015-07-27T15:07:51Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:08:43Z jackdaniel: yep, thanks :) 2015-07-27T15:09:34Z theos: are there books/materials on writing modular software in CL? 2015-07-27T15:09:50Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T15:11:02Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-07-27T15:11:09Z pjb``: strangely, *print-case* :downcase will downcase |BlahBlah| on printing, while *print-case* :upcase doesn't. 2015-07-27T15:12:47Z pjb``: Oh right. 2015-07-27T15:13:01Z pjb``: *print-case* has an effect ONLY only UPPERCASE characters in symbol names :-) 2015-07-27T15:13:14Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:13:49Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:13:58Z pjb: theos: why do you need a book? 2015-07-27T15:14:25Z theos: pjb i want to know better ways to make programs modular 2015-07-27T15:14:40Z pjb: 1- this would be independent of the language. 2015-07-27T15:14:53Z eMBee quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T15:14:56Z pjb: 2- you can easily use features of the language to implement a modular architecture. 2015-07-27T15:15:13Z eMBee joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:15:18Z pjb: for example, defining interfaces (sets of generic functions), classes or packages. 2015-07-27T15:15:26Z theos: yes i want to know what architectures people have used already 2015-07-27T15:15:36Z pjb: And even at a higher component level, using things like asdf systems and quicklisp. 2015-07-27T15:15:58Z pjb: theos: now of course, one problem would be to find a BIG lisp application :-) 2015-07-27T15:15:59Z shlomo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:16:08Z eudoxia: theos: hmm, maybe take a look at Sonya Keene's CLOS book? 2015-07-27T15:16:14Z pjb: You'd have to ask to companies like ITA or Ravenpack, but they don't show their sources. 2015-07-27T15:16:24Z theos: eudoxia beach told me its not good :S 2015-07-27T15:16:38Z eudoxia: hm 2015-07-27T15:16:40Z H4ns: theos: i think it is good. 2015-07-27T15:16:46Z eudoxia: i rather liked it 2015-07-27T15:16:52Z theos: i will read it anyway though! i have it 2015-07-27T15:16:58Z pjb: For books, rather books about software engineering. OMT (pre-UML) or UML books tend to have a chapter or too about components and modules. 2015-07-27T15:17:21Z theos: pjb hmm i will make my own architecture then! thanks :D 2015-07-27T15:17:31Z pjb: theos: you might also like http://www.amazon.com/UNIX-Network-Programming-Richard-Stevens/dp/0139498761 2015-07-27T15:18:03Z pjb: because one way to ensure modularity of a big software system, is to use separate processes and let them communicate thru some kind of IPC with definite interfaces. 2015-07-27T15:19:04Z pjb: theos: also, for the historical aspect, you might study how they wrote modular programs in Cobol, with "chains" of programs processing data files in turns (phases), until obtaining the payroll computed after 12 hours :-) 2015-07-27T15:19:15Z pjb: No, seriously, they have some interesting techniques. 2015-07-27T15:20:21Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:20:46Z pjb: The thing being that both multi-process+IPC and those chains of programs were/are needed in circumstances that may be different than what you encounter with lisp (small memory space, brittle C programs crashing often, etc). So in lisp you might not need to do that, but keep a whole system (or even several systems) inside a single lisp image inside 32 GB of RAM, and giving results of millions of users instantaneously. 2015-07-27T15:21:06Z pjb: This changes the outlook the technical aspects of the modularization. 2015-07-27T15:21:10Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T15:21:45Z pjb: theos: but it's really quite simple: draw boxes and arrows, and keep it a DAG: avoid loops. 2015-07-27T15:21:46Z p_l: pjb: the techniques in COBOL actually would fit nearly 1:1 for CL with lparallel 2015-07-27T15:21:49Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T15:22:17Z pjb: p_l: how so? They would rather sequentialize most of the processes. 2015-07-27T15:22:20Z p_l: also, pipes often was related to datasets exceeding memory 2015-07-27T15:22:50Z pjb: theos: TAOUCP would be a good read too. 2015-07-27T15:23:06Z theos: pjb yes as CL is different from most languages, a book on modular CL programming would have been awesome. thanks for the ideas. 2015-07-27T15:23:16Z pjb: TAOUP I mean. 2015-07-27T15:23:20Z p_l: pjb: well, depends on specific cases - you had batch jobs that did huge amounts of non-concurrent processing of data several times the size of memory, and you had COBOL running thousands of low-latency transactions 2015-07-27T15:23:24Z pjb: http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/ 2015-07-27T15:23:30Z theos: the art of u programming? 2015-07-27T15:23:36Z pjb: unix 2015-07-27T15:23:40Z theos: ah 2015-07-27T15:24:11Z p_l: pjb: though you could take a MVS batch job and structure a lisp program in similar way, with multiple threads formed around a data pipeline in lparallel 2015-07-27T15:24:14Z pjb: because it gives a description of all kinds of programs with different user interfaces or no (daemons), and this is useful to consider modularisation. 2015-07-27T15:24:26Z eudoxia: i liked the art of unix programming 2015-07-27T15:24:38Z eudoxia: it discusses a lot of things like freeciv's client/server architecture 2015-07-27T15:25:12Z pjb: It has a set of "Rules" about modularity/composition/separation, etc. 2015-07-27T15:25:15Z p_l: Another thing to consider for modularization: in a flexible language, you could create a setup where you can run components outside *and* inside one image, arranging it depending on configuration you need 2015-07-27T15:26:58Z pjb: At a small level, you want to avoid mixing I/O with computing. Notably, there are different way to structure the control flow with I/O: asynchronous, synchronous, event-based, blocking, etc. This gives program structures entirely different. So if you mix I/O with your logic, you're screwed, modularity-wise. 2015-07-27T15:27:34Z p_l: pjb: well, in lisp, you could technically use the power of CLOS to somehow abstract it out to certain level... ;) 2015-07-27T15:27:54Z pjb: This is often unnatural for people to separate clearly I/O from computing. For small programs it would complicate things, but when you're thinking about components and modularization, this is the first thing you want to keep very clearly separated. 2015-07-27T15:28:12Z pjb: p_l: well, you can do things like CLIM :-) 2015-07-27T15:28:22Z pjb: or Arnesi. 2015-07-27T15:28:35Z superancetre: hello everyone, im trying to use (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/echo" '(toto)), (my final but would be to look into the $PS1 variable and changing it). When i run the command i wrote before, nothing happens, at all, i just get " sb-impl::process :exited 0", so i guess the command ran, but where can i see the prompt? and how could i use it to change the $PS1 variable? Any idea welcome, thank you. 2015-07-27T15:29:01Z pjb: s/but/goal/ 2015-07-27T15:29:25Z pjb: There's no prompt. /bin/echo doesn't prompt anything. 2015-07-27T15:29:38Z pjb: run-program doesn't run bash, it runs /bin/echo, since you asked that. 2015-07-27T15:29:48Z kini quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-07-27T15:29:59Z pjb: /bin/bash doesn't write a prompt ($PS1) unless it works interactively, which run-program doesn't do. 2015-07-27T15:30:55Z pjb: superancetre: you can ask for the output to be redirected to the terminal: (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/echo" '("toto") :output t) 2015-07-27T15:31:01Z H4ns: superancetre: you cannot change a variable in your running shell from a program that you start unless you do it in a very special way 2015-07-27T15:31:03Z pjb: and you need to pass strings to run-program, not symbols. 2015-07-27T15:31:09Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-27T15:31:42Z superancetre: pjb: ok thanks 2015-07-27T15:32:07Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-27T15:33:09Z theos: is amop good for learning about modular programming? 2015-07-27T15:33:27Z H4ns: superancetre: that very special way is more of a unix basics thing, not so much a lisp thing. maybe you want to look at how dynamic prompts are typically implemented, e.g. in big git shell configurations. 2015-07-27T15:33:48Z H4ns: theos: amop is not modular at all. 2015-07-27T15:33:59Z theos: oh noo 2015-07-27T15:34:12Z theos is running out of CL books 2015-07-27T15:34:47Z superancetre: H4ns: big git shell configuration? 2015-07-27T15:35:08Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-27T15:35:58Z H4ns: superancetre: https://github.com/magicmonty/bash-git-prompt for example 2015-07-27T15:36:58Z superancetre: H4ns: thx you 2015-07-27T15:38:16Z pjb: superancetre: You could try: (sb-ext:run-program "/opt/local/bin/xterm" '("-e" "/bin/bash") :environment '("PS1=FOR-SBCL> " "DISPLAY=:0.0")) but bash reads profile and .bashrc, they will probably override PS1. 2015-07-27T15:39:50Z kini joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:40:11Z pjb: (sb-ext:run-program "/opt/X11/bin/xterm" '("-e" "/bin/bash" "--no-profile" "--norc") :environment '("PS1=FOR-SBCL> " "DISPLAY=:0.0")) seems to exit immediately, and with "-i" too. 2015-07-27T15:41:10Z `xaxes`: http://wklej.org/hash/2a0d4edebfb/ why my code is invalid? sbcl throws [Condition of type UNBOUND-VARIABLE] at (join-channel "#papaj-space-program") 2015-07-27T15:41:57Z H4ns: `xaxes`: line 25 2015-07-27T15:42:21Z psy joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:42:52Z pjb: I'ts in start, after the variables are set. 2015-07-27T15:43:06Z `xaxes`: H4ns: ah, I forgot; the *connection* variable is unbound 2015-07-27T15:43:21Z jackdaniel: if readtable-case is :upcase, then 'zebr\a shuld return |ZEBRa|, but if it's :invert, result should be |ZEBRa| or |zebra| ? 2015-07-27T15:43:38Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:43:56Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:44:08Z `xaxes`: H4ns: http://wklej.org/id/1763991/ ;P 2015-07-27T15:44:38Z pjb: works for me. 2015-07-27T15:45:14Z pjb: jackdaniel: invert works only when the symbol contains only one case of letters. 2015-07-27T15:45:27Z pjb: so all downcase (plus no-case) or all upcase (plus no-case). 2015-07-27T15:45:27Z jackdaniel: 'zebr\a <- 2015-07-27T15:45:31Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:45:35Z jackdaniel: its all downcase 2015-07-27T15:45:46Z jackdaniel: but one is escaped 2015-07-27T15:46:36Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-27T15:47:21Z pjb: When the readtable case is :invert, then if all of the unescaped letters in the extended token are of the same case, those (unescaped) letters are converted to the opposite case. 2015-07-27T15:47:35Z jackdaniel: ok, so |ZEBRa| 2015-07-27T15:47:38Z `xaxes`: H4ns: do you have any idea what's wrong? 2015-07-27T15:47:40Z pjb: so it doesn't consider escaped characters, so it should invert ZEBR -> |ZEBRa| 2015-07-27T15:47:53Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-07-27T15:47:54Z jackdaniel: thanks, I really appreciate it:) 2015-07-27T15:48:02Z pjb: file:///opt/local/share/doc/lisp/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/23_ab.htm 2015-07-27T15:48:03Z jackdaniel: your help guys that is 2015-07-27T15:48:30Z pjb: I mean: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/23_ab.htm 2015-07-27T15:48:54Z jackdaniel: yes, it's clearly said 2015-07-27T15:49:31Z pjb: With a test word like zebra, they should have tried z|e|b|r|a :-) 2015-07-27T15:50:24Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T15:51:57Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T15:52:15Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:53:31Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:53:58Z jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152392#1 or something like this :) 2015-07-27T15:56:06Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T15:56:16Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-27T15:59:38Z H4ns: `xaxes`: well, the error message tells you that your (setf *connection* ...) form is not executed before *connection* is accessed. i do not know the libraries that you're using, so i have no idea what is called when. 2015-07-27T16:00:03Z Natch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T16:00:49Z superancetre quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-27T16:00:51Z dim: if I have a multi-line string (from a sub-command output) and I want to display it indented, should ~<~a~:> work for that? 2015-07-27T16:00:51Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-27T16:00:54Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:01:11Z gendl_ quit (Quit: gendl_) 2015-07-27T16:02:54Z Kitu joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:03:01Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:04:31Z ebrasca` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T16:07:34Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:07:50Z yenda quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-27T16:12:06Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-27T16:12:56Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:13:19Z akkad grovels the clhs looking for format ~ for " 2015-07-27T16:13:20Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:13:22Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:14:31Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-27T16:14:31Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:14:43Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:16:54Z pjb: jackdaniel: what about :preserve of escaped: '(ZEBR\a |ZEBRa| |zebra| |ZEBRA| |ZEBRa|) ? 2015-07-27T16:17:39Z jackdaniel: right, typo 2015-07-27T16:17:40Z jackdaniel: thanks 2015-07-27T16:17:47Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T16:18:42Z pjb: and the column invert has some escaped #\a inverted. 2015-07-27T16:19:00Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-27T16:19:22Z pjb: oh, sorry no, you have upcase \A too. 2015-07-27T16:19:24Z jackdaniel: can't spot that 2015-07-27T16:19:24Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:19:29Z pjb: it's good. 2015-07-27T16:20:01Z akkad: can format do single ticks? 2015-07-27T16:20:43Z jackdaniel: ok 2015-07-27T16:20:45Z pjb: what do you mean by single ticks? 2015-07-27T16:20:59Z akkad: single quote aka ' 2015-07-27T16:21:11Z pjb: (format t "'hello~%") ? 2015-07-27T16:21:45Z pjb: Or do you mean by way of ~A or ~S? (format nil "~A" ''hello) --> "'hello" 2015-07-27T16:21:45Z akkad: was not sure if it required voodoo to escape 2015-07-27T16:21:54Z pjb: it may be implementation dependant. 2015-07-27T16:22:01Z akkad: I just need to generate a sql query and use ' vs " 2015-07-27T16:22:09Z pjb: Oh! 2015-07-27T16:22:29Z pjb: No, you will need to write it yourself (and sql-quote-escape the ' inside your data!). 2015-07-27T16:22:58Z akkad: double quotes in postmodern == bad 2015-07-27T16:23:02Z pjb: Even using ~S with a string may not be safe when sending the data to non-CL, since the escaping inside strings may not be the same in those other languages. 2015-07-27T16:23:50Z rjmacready joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:24:18Z Akshay_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T16:24:26Z pjb: I would advise to write a formatter function, so you may write: (format nil "select ~{~/s:col/~^,~/s:col/~} where ~/s:col/=~/s:str/" '(name age sex) 'name "John") 2015-07-27T16:24:33Z pjb: a set of formatter functions. 2015-07-27T16:24:51Z pjb: (format nil "select ~{~/s:col/~^,~} where ~/s:col/=~/s:str/" '(name age sex) 'name "John") ; I mean. 2015-07-27T16:25:12Z pjb: perhaps SQL would be short enough for the package nickname. 2015-07-27T16:25:33Z Kitu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T16:25:45Z rjmacready left #lisp 2015-07-27T16:27:08Z pegu: pjb: have you tried using cl-sql? In cl-sql you can use the macro language to create queries rather than generating query strings 2015-07-27T16:28:22Z pegu: [select 'person :where [and [= [name] the-name] [= [age] the-age]]] 2015-07-27T16:28:27Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:28:30Z eudoxia: i would suggest sxql instead as it's safer by default 2015-07-27T16:28:46Z eudoxia: wait, i misread cl-sql as s-sql 2015-07-27T16:28:59Z eudoxia: cl-sql does escaping but i'm not sure it's guaranteed to be injection-safe 2015-07-27T16:30:54Z pjb: pegu: I know, but akkad seemed to want to generate the sql source himself. 2015-07-27T16:31:18Z pegu: I would guess you have to sanitize your inputs before feeding them to cl-sql, I should probably check out sxql if it's better in this regard 2015-07-27T16:31:37Z pegu: pjb: ack 2015-07-27T16:32:06Z eudoxia: what sxql does is it constructs SQL statements as objects, not strings. then you yield it, and it returns two values: the SQL with placeholder characters, and the arguments to those placeholders. 2015-07-27T16:32:20Z eudoxia: this way the "placeholder-replacement" is done on the SQL database side 2015-07-27T16:32:25Z eudoxia: this is guaranteed to prevent SQL injections 2015-07-27T16:33:03Z eudoxia: (ie there's no escaping or input sanitization on the CL side, that's not necessary) 2015-07-27T16:34:29Z pegu: eudoxia: cl-sql constructs object too, but at some point they are converted to strings 2015-07-27T16:35:02Z pegu: [select 'openclose] 2015-07-27T16:35:02Z pegu: #<SQL-OBJECT-QUERY (OPENCLOSE)> 2015-07-27T16:35:03Z pegu: 2015-07-27T16:35:14Z eudoxia: pegu: i remember reading a thread where injection safety was discussed 2015-07-27T16:35:37Z eudoxia: the conclusion, IIRC, was that escaping worked for most things but potentially broke for *some* inputs 2015-07-27T16:36:13Z eudoxia: whatever the case, the sxql approach is supported by all DB engines and is superior since there's no possibility that some obscure input will break things 2015-07-27T16:36:37Z cadadar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T16:37:30Z shlomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-27T16:37:52Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:38:52Z Korsi: lö/leave 2015-07-27T16:38:58Z Korsi: sorry:) 2015-07-27T16:39:02Z Korsi left #lisp 2015-07-27T16:42:19Z akkad: is there a flatten function of something that can turn postmodern result of say (((1))) -> 1? other than endless car and test? 2015-07-27T16:42:19Z akkad: 2015-07-27T16:43:06Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T16:43:42Z jackdaniel: (labels ((flatten (x) (if (consp x) (flatten (car x)) x)) …) 2015-07-27T16:44:25Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:44:34Z akkad: nice ty 2015-07-27T16:44:52Z John[Lisbeth} joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:44:59Z gendl_ quit (Quit: gendl_) 2015-07-27T16:45:03Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:45:12Z John[Lisbeth}: Day two: Still learning emacs. 2015-07-27T16:45:28Z aeth: I think everyone is still learning emacs. 2015-07-27T16:45:28Z minion: aeth, memo from pjb``: there is a single ANSI Common Lisp standard, therefore a conforming CL program will always work on a conforming CL implementation. Even if that conforming CL program has been written one million years ago (and been fucking inactive since) and even if it's one a implementation that will be written in a million years from now (and that's fucking not being maintained righ now)! 2015-07-27T16:45:29Z jackdaniel: you can also test, if cdr is nil, ↑ will just grab sexiest car 2015-07-27T16:45:47Z developernotes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-27T16:46:15Z aeth: pjb``: yes, and the keyword is "conforming" 2015-07-27T16:46:15Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:46:34Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:46:39Z oleo: (defun pull-out (list) 2015-07-27T16:46:39Z oleo: (let ((result)) 2015-07-27T16:46:40Z oleo: (dolist (x list (nreverse result)) 2015-07-27T16:46:40Z oleo: (cond ((atom x) (push x result)) 2015-07-27T16:46:40Z oleo: ((listp x) (push (car x) result)) 2015-07-27T16:46:41Z oleo: (t nil))))) 2015-07-27T16:46:44Z John[Lisbeth}: I've lost the link to that sexy manual for common lisp you guys where talking about. 2015-07-27T16:46:55Z John[Lisbeth}: It was like PCW or something like that. 2015-07-27T16:47:08Z jackdaniel: minion: give John[Lisbeth} pcl 2015-07-27T16:47:09Z minion: John[Lisbeth}: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-27T16:47:16Z Ettore1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:47:26Z oleo: (pull-out '(0 (1) ((2)) (((3))) ) 2015-07-27T16:48:25Z oleo: one-level only 2015-07-27T16:49:39Z aeth: pjb``: I'm guessing an issue with really old programs/libraries would be if they were written between 1984 and 1994, and the issue with newer ones is if they use features not standardized (like threads) without a portability library. 2015-07-27T16:49:40Z jackdaniel: (mapcar #'ensure-car list) 2015-07-27T16:50:28Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-07-27T16:50:47Z Ettore quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T16:50:54Z oleo: (values-list (flatten '(0 (1) ((2)) (((3)))))) 2015-07-27T16:51:03Z varjag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-27T16:51:25Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:52:13Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T16:52:35Z jebes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T16:52:39Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:53:40Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-27T16:53:54Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-27T16:55:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T16:57:08Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-27T16:58:45Z easye` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-27T16:58:58Z easye joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:00:17Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T17:05:48Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-27T17:08:36Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:08:51Z pjb: aeth: that said, even when you use implementation specific features, in general you use them thru a specific package. Say, SB-ALIEN or FFI. As long as you'd copy the documentation (if it exists) of that package into the specification of required API of your library, it should be ok. 2015-07-27T17:09:26Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T17:09:42Z pjb: aeth: the evil implementation specific features are those that extend the language in a way that cannot be easily papered over in other environment. Like, adding parameters or argument types to special operators such as CL:FUNCTION. This is a big no-no. 2015-07-27T17:10:59Z pjb: aeth: of course, in terms of modularisation it's better if you define a small interface to your dependencies and not use them everywhere. You want a modular system, so that it's easy to write dependency libraries for it running on different systems. 2015-07-27T17:12:08Z pjb: GPU is a wide API. DisplayPostscript is a smaller one. A program that would use a specific GPU will break soon, and is therefore less worth than a program that uses a smaller simplier graphic API, that can be implemented elsewhere. 2015-07-27T17:12:13Z pjb: and virtualized. 2015-07-27T17:12:57Z p_l: a program that would use a specific GPU isn't usable outside of console programming 2015-07-27T17:13:00Z KingNato quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T17:13:56Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:14:08Z p_l: it allows for awesome results, but ones that cannot be easily ported later (think of the backwards compat needed in Amiga to run older games!) 2015-07-27T17:14:13Z John[Lisbeth}: I am trying to follow this guide but I don't have a .Emacs file: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html 2015-07-27T17:14:37Z pegu: eudoxia: thanks for the explanation, I'll have to check out sxql 2015-07-27T17:15:11Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:15:21Z eudoxia: John[Lisbeth}: ~/.emacs 2015-07-27T17:16:17Z John[Lisbeth}: should I just put it into a blank file? 2015-07-27T17:16:32Z eudoxia: yes 2015-07-27T17:17:30Z Ettore1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-27T17:18:35Z pegu: Are there any tutorials on cl-selenium available? 2015-07-27T17:19:51Z aeth: pjb: good point, some early very unportable 3D code that wasn't very modular is probably the most un-portable Lisp. I wonder if there is any anywhere 2015-07-27T17:20:23Z aeth: pre-OpenGL 3D (although early OpenGL would also be very different than current best practices) 2015-07-27T17:20:41Z eudoxia: pegu: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-selenium/tutorial.html 2015-07-27T17:23:58Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:24:55Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T17:25:04Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:26:29Z ggole quit 2015-07-27T17:26:34Z kaleun quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T17:26:50Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:28:22Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-27T17:29:05Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T17:31:03Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:31:10Z John[Lisbeth} quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-27T17:32:45Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:33:34Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:34:02Z jdtest2 quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2015-07-27T17:36:01Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:36:18Z pegu: eudoxia: I've seen that, I was hoping for something a little more advanced, e.g. logging in to a site, handling cookies etc 2015-07-27T17:36:52Z eudoxia: maybe see how selenium corresponds to cl-selenium, and try to port the examples/) 2015-07-27T17:36:55Z eudoxia: ?* 2015-07-27T17:38:35Z pegu: eudoxia: that's probably a good idea as cl-selenium seem to do some api building upon selenium remote control 2015-07-27T17:38:50Z hocwp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T17:39:09Z pegu: but I was hoping to find something using cl-selenium other than the above example... 2015-07-27T17:39:44Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:39:58Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:40:04Z luis: pegu: if you're not specifically looking for a selenium, I have an unfinished library that might be useful. 2015-07-27T17:40:12Z luis: *a selenium interface 2015-07-27T17:41:30Z pegu: luis: I just started using cl-selenium, but I'm having some problems, everything appears to be working (logging in to a site using username/password) but then I don't seem to be logged in and was wondering if there were any problems handling cookies etc. 2015-07-27T17:41:56Z pegu: my problem is probably more in the selenium area than in cl-selenium... 2015-07-27T17:41:59Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-27T17:46:43Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:46:55Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:47:55Z ceryo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:48:43Z vrrm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T17:50:36Z jebes joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:50:50Z ceryo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T17:52:00Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:52:08Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T17:54:19Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:55:12Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:55:27Z prphp quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T17:55:33Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:56:23Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T17:57:41Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-27T17:59:26Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-27T18:00:44Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-27T18:01:30Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-27T18:03:45Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T18:04:10Z ceryo_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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mveety-bsd joined #lisp 2015-07-27T19:17:03Z mveety-bsd: is anyone working on mcclim anymore? 2015-07-27T19:17:11Z smull quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-27T19:19:23Z jackdaniel: mveety-bsd: nyef works on ncclim 2015-07-27T19:19:47Z Shinmera: *nq-clim 2015-07-27T19:19:49Z jackdaniel: and beach wrotes/was writing spec for better clim 2015-07-27T19:20:00Z jackdaniel: what Shinmera said. thanks for correction 2015-07-27T19:21:26Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-27T19:21:31Z mveety-bsd: thanks! 2015-07-27T19:21:52Z mveety-bsd: mostly the same as mcclim? 2015-07-27T19:22:11Z jackdaniel doesn't know 2015-07-27T19:22:16Z fortitude: mveety-bsd: it looked fairly different the last time I read it 2015-07-27T19:22:33Z fortitude: smaller pieces, doesn't have the sheets/viewports type stuff 2015-07-27T19:22:51Z fortitude: it's also raster-based, instead of vector-based 2015-07-27T19:24:53Z mveety-bsd: okay. ill see how this works. thanks for the help guys! 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(Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T21:08:57Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:10:05Z akkad: other than indentation, are there any major issues with this code. https://gist.github.com/746eeb1a1418bfa7edcc 2015-07-27T21:11:07Z eudoxia: that defvar in a lambda doesn't seem right 2015-07-27T21:11:38Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:11:45Z H4ns: akkad: unless has an implicit progn 2015-07-27T21:11:58Z H4ns: akkad: you're using to many use-once variables. 2015-07-27T21:12:14Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T21:12:18Z H4ns: akkad: your use of caps for keyword names is confusing me. 2015-07-27T21:12:40Z varjag: yeah the defvar sticks out 2015-07-27T21:12:48Z varjag: otoh you use let there too 2015-07-27T21:12:59Z akkad takes notes 2015-07-27T21:13:04Z varjag: so i assume it must serve a purpose :) 2015-07-27T21:13:05Z H4ns: akkad: cdr-assoc/cdr/elt is making your code hard to read and follow. 2015-07-27T21:13:29Z akkad: I see 2015-07-27T21:13:35Z H4ns: defvar at that point is plain wrong. defvar belongs onto the top level, period. 2015-07-27T21:13:53Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:14:32Z akkad: k 2015-07-27T21:15:50Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T21:15:59Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T21:17:56Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:17:59Z varjag: it could be in a nested form if you need dynamic extent 2015-07-27T21:18:07Z varjag: but you have to think hard if you really need it 2015-07-27T21:19:20Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:20:19Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-07-27T21:20:24Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:21:53Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T21:25:43Z Fleurety quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T21:27:25Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-27T21:27:32Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:30:28Z H4ns: even if dynamic extent is needed, putting a defvar somewhere into the middle of a function is the wrong way to get there. you put the defvar onto the top level, name the variable *approprately* and then use let to bind the variable to the desired value where you need to. 2015-07-27T21:30:42Z zmikund joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:31:20Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T21:31:53Z Fleurety joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:33:06Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T21:33:25Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-27T21:33:44Z dim: and don't forget to pass it around to threads who need it before you ask yourself (or around) why the let binding doesn't work ;-) 2015-07-27T21:34:32Z akkad: defvar because defparameter is too hard to spell 2015-07-27T21:34:44Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:34:51Z H4ns: lmao 2015-07-27T21:35:32Z H4ns: akkad: maybe you want to choose a different profession, one in which you can just say "nah, i don't want to do it right, let me do it my way". computers are rather unforgiving to such thinking. 2015-07-27T21:35:38Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-27T21:35:44Z H4ns: well, and _i_ am certainly not forgiving either :) 2015-07-27T21:35:47Z akkad: H4ns I asked, so I'm clearly interested in feedback. 2015-07-27T21:35:52Z akkad: thanks. 2015-07-27T21:35:59Z H4ns: akkad: there you have it! :) 2015-07-27T21:36:06Z dim: taht code is awful even by my standards 2015-07-27T21:36:35Z dim: no comments, to boot, and. well. intentional programming and all 2015-07-27T21:37:58Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:39:19Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:39:53Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-27T21:39:57Z akkad: it shall be burned 2015-07-27T21:41:50Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:42:40Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-27T21:43:08Z mveety-bsd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T21:43:09Z dim: akkad: read http://www.gar1t.com/blog/solving-embarrassingly-obvious-problems-in-erlang.html first 2015-07-27T21:43:25Z dim: akkad: it's in Erlang, but still applies to what you're doing I think 2015-07-27T21:43:38Z dim: if others here know a comparable article in Common Lisp I'll take it ;-) 2015-07-27T21:44:18Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-27T21:47:09Z akkad: many tiny functions. got it 2015-07-27T21:48:34Z dim: as many and as tiny as you want, above all, with proper descriptive name 2015-07-27T21:48:54Z dim: as the article say, make it obvious 2015-07-27T21:50:39Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-27T21:50:41Z H4ns: often, it is much harder to find a good name than to just have the reader understand the compound expression. i do not buy the "compose as many little functions as possible" idea. 2015-07-27T21:51:09Z H4ns: i take a compound expression over a wrong or unclear variable or function name any time. 2015-07-27T21:51:11Z dim: I agree with "not as many as possible" 2015-07-27T21:51:12Z aeth: H4ns: lisp is actually very forgiving, you can just come up with a new name for defparameter if you want 2015-07-27T21:51:23Z dim: but seeing where akkad starts from... there's a middle ground 2015-07-27T21:52:02Z johann is now known as myrkraverk 2015-07-27T21:52:04Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T21:52:40Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:53:21Z pjb: H4ns: indeed, named abstractions should be grounded in the domain. 2015-07-27T21:53:39Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2015-07-27T21:54:20Z H4ns: dim: granted :) 2015-07-27T21:54:32Z aeth: I think pjb was doing a hypothetical translation of Common Lisp to Spanish the other day and the only issue was nil. 2015-07-27T21:55:36Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-27T21:58:18Z fe[nl]ix: XachX: ping 2015-07-27T21:58:38Z XachX: Poing 2015-07-27T21:59:57Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-27T21:59:57Z fe[nl]ix: can you check that planet.lisp.org can still fetch the atom feed for my blog ? 2015-07-27T22:00:36Z fe[nl]ix: I updated the blog generator and would like to post something now 2015-07-27T22:01:22Z ramus joined #lisp 2015-07-27T22:01:38Z zmikund quit (Remote host closed 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Google's being garbage for me again, or maybe I'm just not searching for the right thing. 2015-07-27T22:40:35Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T22:42:24Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-27T22:45:39Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-27T22:46:13Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-27T22:47:32Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T22:50:16Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-07-27T22:50:16Z bitwiggler: akkad: that's pretty bad. 2015-07-27T22:51:46Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-27T22:54:20Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-27T22:58:42Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-27T22:59:18Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-27T22:59:46Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-27T23:03:08Z s00pcan quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-27T23:04:06Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-27T23:07:16Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:10:44Z normanrichards quit 2015-07-27T23:11:11Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-07-27T23:11:12Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-27T23:14:42Z pinterface joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:16:04Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:17:01Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-27T23:17:46Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T23:25:06Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:26:20Z cyraxjoe_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:28:50Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-27T23:30:23Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:30:46Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-27T23:31:20Z cyraxjoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-27T23:32:54Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T23:33:58Z jebes: aeth: PAIP midly covers it 2015-07-27T23:34:12Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:36:07Z aeth: http://www.norvig.com/paip/README.html 2015-07-27T23:36:12Z aeth: ah, I'm guessing eliza.lisp 2015-07-27T23:36:57Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-27T23:37:13Z jebes: eliza is a program to show off how far tricks can get you 2015-07-27T23:37:37Z jebes: its in the later sections, it coveres parsing and storing english and attempting to reason with it 2015-07-27T23:37:40Z jebes: only a little bit 2015-07-27T23:37:56Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-27T23:39:03Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T23:41:21Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:42:10Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-27T23:44:01Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-07-27T23:44:54Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:45:24Z Kaisyu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-27T23:45:32Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:45:42Z aeth: so... hmm... I guess I'll just have to naïvely implement this with a bunch of format strings then 2015-07-27T23:46:26Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-27T23:48:00Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:53:12Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-27T23:56:46Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-27T23:57:01Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:00:52Z gendl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T00:00:52Z gendl_ is now known as gendl 2015-07-28T00:01:33Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:05:36Z eazar_sunny_day joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:09:41Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:09:44Z grizzlydeer joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:09:58Z grizzlydeer left #lisp 2015-07-28T00:10:12Z grizzlydeer joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:10:34Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-28T00:10:40Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T00:10:40Z grizzlydeer: Can someone here tell me what this book SICP will teach me exactly? 2015-07-28T00:13:31Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:13:38Z pillton: grizzlydeer: Is that information not found in the Foreword, Preface to the Second Edition nor the Preface to the First Edition? 2015-07-28T00:14:00Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T00:14:09Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:14:59Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:15:11Z grizzlydeer: pillton: I don't have the book. I've just heard a lot of good things about it. :) 2015-07-28T00:15:34Z pillton: grizzlydeer: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 2015-07-28T00:16:46Z grizzlydeer: Is it good for a beginner though. I see a lot of praise for the book, but most seem to recommend Python to beginners. 2015-07-28T00:17:37Z j4cknewt joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:17:50Z quazimod1 is now known as quazibutt 2015-07-28T00:20:32Z quazimodo quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-28T00:20:36Z grizzlydeer: pillton: It doesn't go into detail, no. It just talks about computer magic, Lisp and AI. 2015-07-28T00:20:46Z quazibutt is now known as quazimodo 2015-07-28T00:22:11Z pillton: I haven't read the book so I can't add to the opinions. I guess you will have to kill a few hours and find out for yourself. 2015-07-28T00:23:53Z govt: aeth, I have a hard copy of PAIP that I'd be interested in selling, hmu if you'd be interested 2015-07-28T00:24:09Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:25:48Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:25:52Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T00:28:42Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:31:06Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T00:31:21Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:32:10Z digiorgi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T00:32:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T00:32:27Z jason_m: when i'm in the slime inspector, i view one object (o1), which containts another object (o2). i navigate to o2 and press ENTER. from there, can I go back to o1? I've just been quitting (q) and starting over 2015-07-28T00:33:26Z pillton: jason_m: l 2015-07-28T00:34:03Z jason_m: pillton: perfect, thanks! 2015-07-28T00:34:18Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-28T00:35:06Z pillton: jason_m: You can always get the list of key bindings for a specific buffer. C-h b 2015-07-28T00:38:17Z jason_m: pillton: thanks. i bit the bullet about 2 weeks ago and am picking up emacs. i'm sure i read over that in the tutorial, but all the keys haven't stuck around in my head yet. 2015-07-28T00:38:39Z Zhivago: Don't worry, after the RSI kicks in, you should have plenty of time to remember. :) 2015-07-28T00:38:53Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:39:24Z jason_m: i'm doing well when i don't type :w to save 2015-07-28T00:39:49Z pillton: jason_m: C-h ? is short for I want help. :) 2015-07-28T00:40:05Z jason_m: should be easy enough to remember 2015-07-28T00:40:38Z pillton: jason_m: Mental model adjustments always take time. 2015-07-28T00:43:22Z jason_m: so far, i have to say the repl is much easier to use (slimv was very picky about a space after the prompt) and the debugger seems easier to use 2015-07-28T00:44:24Z jason_m: originally i though, lots of people use vim, so slimv must be comperable to slime 2015-07-28T00:44:45Z ceryo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:45:14Z jason_m: but after the switch, slimv appears to be very rough around the edges, in hindsight 2015-07-28T00:47:13Z ceryo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T00:48:53Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:48:59Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:52:18Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T00:56:22Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T00:56:26Z keen__________32 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T00:56:54Z tstc` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T00:57:17Z cross joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:59:19Z keen__________32 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T00:59:52Z ceryo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-28T01:02:57Z grizzlydeer: Do you guys like Common Lisp over other languages because of its level of abstraction/easiness? 2015-07-28T01:03:40Z jebes: would you rather work with a scapel that can become scissors or just a scapel? 2015-07-28T01:04:36Z jason_m: I like it because so far, it's been fun :) 2015-07-28T01:04:40Z jebes: but then again, from another perspective, the level of abstraction that can be achieved is lisp's downfall. I could never do what I am used to doing in lisp in a team... 2015-07-28T01:05:30Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T01:05:41Z jebes: in fact, in a project I'm currently working on, the other engineer can't work on my code base at all... but he only knows java and some web front end stuff :/ 2015-07-28T01:05:55Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-28T01:06:24Z pjb: jebes: you need to watch Alan Kay's conferences. 2015-07-28T01:06:28Z grizzlydeer: Languages like C and Java seem so much more complex than Lisp. I always thought Lisp was like super complicated, but it seems pretty nice (from code I've seen). 2015-07-28T01:06:42Z pjb: jebes: Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZmcmdsoAXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UOmItPa4iA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPavndhYxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9xLi0iJg1g https://vimeo.com/82301919 2015-07-28T01:06:43Z pjb: 2015-07-28T01:07:06Z jebes: pjb you linked them yesterday :) 2015-07-28T01:07:28Z jebes: they probably will be highly influntial in my programs I write in the future 2015-07-28T01:07:40Z pjb: I hope so :-) 2015-07-28T01:08:05Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:08:13Z pjb: But the level of abstraction easily attainable with lisp won't be a downfall, but an enabler of this style of programming. 2015-07-28T01:08:16Z jason_m: they are complicated! you've got expressions, statements, blocks, annotations, all sorts of things thrown into the language because of how inflexible they are 2015-07-28T01:08:27Z jason_m: in lisp you have atoms and lists 2015-07-28T01:08:34Z jason_m: it's atoms and lists all the way down 2015-07-28T01:08:47Z jebes: jason_m: indeed they are, but coming into lisp from such a burdensome language seems complicated, foreign, alien... 2015-07-28T01:08:57Z kristof: That is misleading. 2015-07-28T01:09:07Z jason_m: oh i know, my background is mostly c/c++/c# 2015-07-28T01:09:35Z jebes: pjb: in the future, I hope so, but as the industry currently stands... I beleive it is not a positive trait from a purely manageral position 2015-07-28T01:09:53Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:11:01Z jason_m: think about c++11 - it took how many years for c++ to introduce the range-based for loop? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B11#Range-based_for_loop 2015-07-28T01:11:01Z grizzlydeer: Is Lisp a hacker's language? What makes it a hacker's language over other languages. (I've see A LOT of people online call Lisp a hacker's language, so it must be true.) 2015-07-28T01:11:10Z jason_m: you can write that over your morning coffee in lisp 2015-07-28T01:11:46Z jebes: grizzlydear: first define "hacker's language" 2015-07-28T01:11:57Z jebes: then look at the attributes of lisp, see if they match up 2015-07-28T01:13:07Z grizzlydeer: Like security break-ins and stuff like that. Bad things that get you arrested. 2015-07-28T01:13:30Z jason_m: grizzlydeer: that's the wrong use of hacker 2015-07-28T01:13:53Z aeth: jebes: You don't need to code raw Lisp in a team of non-experts. Build up APIs, DSLs, etc. 2015-07-28T01:13:55Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T01:13:58Z grizzlydeer: It is? 2015-07-28T01:14:18Z aeth: Imo Lisp seems like it requires being an expert because it doesn't have anywhere near enough libraries compared to e.g. Python 2015-07-28T01:14:24Z jebes: grizzlydeer: very much so.... 2015-07-28T01:14:41Z jebes: grizzlydeer: when used in programming circles, "hacker" means a tinkerer 2015-07-28T01:14:57Z jason_m: grizzlydeer: https://stallman.org/articles/on-hacking.html 2015-07-28T01:15:02Z jebes: aeth: b-b-but then you have to understand the full stack!! :( :( :( :( :( 2015-07-28T01:15:34Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T01:15:44Z Zhivago: grizzly: You end up producing a lot of hacks in it. 2015-07-28T01:15:59Z Zhivago: That's how you know it's a hacker's language. 2015-07-28T01:16:08Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:16:15Z aeth: How many people who can program stuff in Python understand the implementation of Python itself, or the non-trivial Python libraries written in C or C++? 2015-07-28T01:16:32Z jebes: aeth: that's what I'm saying :) but its a common argument 2015-07-28T01:17:01Z aeth: You could program Java in Lisp if you were given the right (wrong?) IDE, frameworks, etc. 2015-07-28T01:17:27Z Zhivago: What does understanding a random implementation have to do with anything? 2015-07-28T01:17:34Z aeth: The harder part is coding Lisp in Java. 2015-07-28T01:17:36Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-28T01:17:39Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:17:50Z grizzlydeer: Why is Lisp associated with the lambda symbol so much? 2015-07-28T01:18:34Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:18:48Z jebes: grizzlydeer: ... 2015-07-28T01:18:49Z kaleun quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T01:19:00Z Zhivago: grizzly: It is a transformation of a satanic symbol. 2015-07-28T01:19:07Z grizzlydeer: most Lisp websites I've been to have the lambda symbol as their emoticon. 2015-07-28T01:19:18Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T01:19:21Z jebes: It is tribute to our lord satan, praise be his name 2015-07-28T01:19:33Z grizzlydeer: Almost as if lambda is Lisp's logo or something, like Haskell. 2015-07-28T01:20:50Z aeth: grizzlydeer: Lisp could do lambdas before it was cool, and can do them a lot better than a lot of other languages even today (lambdas in Python are terrible) 2015-07-28T01:21:11Z aeth: Also maybe Half Life 3 will be written in Lisp, who knows? :-P 2015-07-28T01:21:33Z aeth: everyone will be doing #lispgames in 30 years when they finally release it 2015-07-28T01:21:37Z jason_m: maybe the lisp alien will be the final boss? 2015-07-28T01:22:49Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:23:07Z grizzlydeer: What does List Processing even mean, and what did McCarthy mean by "You're doing it all wrong"? 2015-07-28T01:23:29Z Zhivago: Have you heard of processed meat? 2015-07-28T01:23:46Z Zhivago: I suspect that McCarthy wrote an essay on the topic, and you might want to read it. 2015-07-28T01:24:46Z aeth: grizzlydeer: If you really want to know the theory behind Lisp, I'd actually recommend introductory Scheme books, not Lisp books. Imo, Scheme is more Lisp than Lisp. Common Lisp is multi-paradigm so you kind of miss the theoretical point 2015-07-28T01:24:48Z jebes: in fact, i think it would be a great deal beneficial to you to also read the lambda papers by sussman 2015-07-28T01:25:06Z jebes: aeth: i would argue that common lisp is more lisp than scheme! 2015-07-28T01:25:23Z jebes: scheme is more /functional/ oriented than common lisp for sure! 2015-07-28T01:25:58Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T01:26:15Z aeth: jebes: right but that's the relevant part for the whole lambda thing 2015-07-28T01:26:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: "<jebes> in fact, i think it would be a great deal beneficial to you to also read the lambda papers by sussman" I don't remember those being very easy to read. 2015-07-28T01:26:49Z Zhivago: How do you measure 'functional oriented'? 2015-07-28T01:26:55Z grizzlydeer: So, SICP is a pretty good intro to a new programmer hoping to learn Lisp eventually? 2015-07-28T01:26:58Z aeth: Common Lisp is basically (incf 'lisp) with CLOS being a central element. CLOS is cool, but irrelevant to the whole lambda thing 2015-07-28T01:27:05Z aeth: imo 2015-07-28T01:27:20Z Zhivago: Both scheme and CL have procedures rather than functions. 2015-07-28T01:27:40Z aeth: A function is just a procedure with no side effects iirc. 2015-07-28T01:27:47Z Zhivago: petit: Beneficial things are often not easy. 2015-07-28T01:28:08Z Zhivago: Procedures are sequences of instructions over time. 2015-07-28T01:28:12Z jebes: some of them are quite easy 2015-07-28T01:28:15Z Zhivago: Functions are relationships. 2015-07-28T01:28:20Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:28:23Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:28:34Z jebes: zhivago: the ease of the use of procedures (dubbed functions because informal programmer talk) as the base unit of composition 2015-07-28T01:28:37Z Zhivago: Sequenced side-effects are just one way to observe that you have a sequence of instructions over time. 2015-07-28T01:28:57Z aeth: Zhivago: Right, but if you avoid a few things like progn and avoid setting stuff you can code very functionally. 2015-07-28T01:29:02Z jebes: qualities such as lisp-1, emphasis on using lambdas and higher order functions rather than macros... 2015-07-28T01:29:06Z Zhivago: jebes: Where's the benefit in scheme over CL regarding that? 2015-07-28T01:29:28Z jebes: (funcall #'foo 1 2 3) vs (foo 1 2 3) 2015-07-28T01:29:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: Zhivago: Well yeah, but they're not always the best place to start. 2015-07-28T01:29:45Z Zhivago: jebes: So, purely syntactic? 2015-07-28T01:29:56Z jebes: in a way :) 2015-07-28T01:30:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: I remember getting thrown by continuations. I still need to read them. 2015-07-28T01:30:37Z jason_m: grizzlydeer: I'm sure SCIP is very good... I haven't read it (yet!). But this will get you programming in a hurry: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2015-07-28T01:30:45Z jebes: but there is underlying machinenery in order to support this syntax that is slightly differnt 2015-07-28T01:30:53Z Zhivago: A continuation is simply a function to which you pass your result so that the program as a whole may continue. 2015-07-28T01:31:44Z jebes: i much prefer delimited continations, similair to CL restarts :) 2015-07-28T01:31:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh, I get them now. But the definition wasn't what helped. 2015-07-28T01:31:55Z grizzlydeer: How cood is Lisp for low-level stuff. I'm interested in low-level stuff, which is why I'm eying C and Assembly. But, as I'm sure I have expressed well enough already, I know very little about Lisp, since it seems to be unpopular nowadays. 2015-07-28T01:31:59Z digiorgi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T01:32:53Z jebes: how good is lisp at anything? as good as you want it to be. 2015-07-28T01:33:05Z jebes: but it is garbage collected (traditionally speaking), so that may make things thorny 2015-07-28T01:33:19Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:33:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T01:33:29Z aeth: grizzlydeer: It's harder than C or C++ mainly because information on low level stuff online is written assuming you are coding in C or C++. 2015-07-28T01:33:30Z jebes: forth may be more in line 2015-07-28T01:33:31Z Zhivago: grizzly: What does 'low-level' mean? 2015-07-28T01:33:47Z aeth: (imo of course) 2015-07-28T01:34:27Z aeth: grizzlydeer: If you're OK with translating in your head to Lisp imo Lisp is a much more enjoyable language to work with because of the REPL 2015-07-28T01:35:32Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:35:42Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T01:36:59Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:37:20Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T01:39:35Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:41:26Z jason_m: I scanned through all of the object store projects listed on CLiki and they look pretty abandoned. Any recommendations on any of these, or alternatives? http://www.cliki.net/ObjectStore The List for the Web tutorial used Elephant, which I can't get to work with berkeley DB (it is several versions behind) and am too lazy to try with sqlite3. i want to try to finish the example with a working object store. 2015-07-28T01:41:50Z jason_m: Lisp for the Web* (http://www.adamtornhill.com/articles/lispweb.htm) 2015-07-28T01:43:30Z aeth: I was just looking through those... yesterday, I think. 2015-07-28T01:43:33Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:43:48Z grizzlydeer: Can I use SICP to learn some programming theory with Scheme and then switch over to Lisp after I'm done? 2015-07-28T01:45:27Z aeth: grizzlydeer: There are some differences with the way Common Lisp does things. You'll probably want to also go through PCL. 2015-07-28T01:46:08Z Zhivago: SICP does not teach scheme -- it teaches programming. 2015-07-28T01:46:46Z grizzlydeer: But it does teach programming theory with Scheme, doesn't it? 2015-07-28T01:47:17Z grizzlydeer: So, can't you, like, learn basic Scheme as a side effect of reading SICP? 2015-07-28T01:47:35Z jason_m: aeth: did you find an object store that looked "alive"? 2015-07-28T01:48:20Z aeth: jason_m: no, I just wound up getting in an IRC argument over the definition of "active" or something because it's IRC 2015-07-28T01:48:58Z loke: grizzlydeer: What is it you're actually looking for? 2015-07-28T01:49:44Z jason_m: i suppose some of them maybe haven't been touched in a couple years and still work fine, but i'd like to avoid the time i lost with elephant. i fixed it's build system enough to get to the point where it said berkeley DB versions after 4.7 were not supported. I didn't care to keep digging after that. 2015-07-28T01:50:09Z aeth: jason_m: what exactly are you trying to store? 2015-07-28T01:51:06Z jason_m: for right now, just the little objects in the Lisp for the Web tutorial (linked above). But if it a good system, maybe i'll find more uses for it. 2015-07-28T01:51:40Z grizzlydeer: loke: I'm new to programming and would like to learn all of the theory I see you guys talking about, like tail recursion and lambda calclus -- stuff I currently have no clue about, due to being a programming novice. 2015-07-28T01:52:17Z jason_m: grizzlydeer: I'm a hands on learner. for me, the approach is code a little, study a little, code a little, study a little... 2015-07-28T01:52:36Z jason_m: don't lose too much time deciding if lisp is right for you... start coding in it. it is the only way you'll know 2015-07-28T01:54:38Z loke: What jasonm said 2015-07-28T01:55:06Z digiorgi: jason_m: and prove other languages, to see wich is better for you. And remember each language has it own proporse and target people (: 2015-07-28T01:55:36Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-28T01:55:36Z zacharias quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T01:55:42Z loke: Just play around with it. I wouldn't bother "learning the theory" until after you've done a lot of programming. In fact, most programmers I know don't know a single piece of language theory 2015-07-28T01:55:49Z Skrylar: even if you never use lisp for anything else, emacs-lisp is pretty useful regardless of what language you end up having to work with. and IIRC it has packages to support CL code 2015-07-28T01:56:04Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:56:28Z resttime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T01:56:46Z loke: I started programming in the home computer era, which was nice since you _had_ to program just to do anything at all with the computer. These days you don't need to, which makes it harder to get into it I guess. 2015-07-28T01:56:50Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-28T01:56:59Z loke: Emacs is a good choice here, since you really need to do programming in order to customise it. 2015-07-28T01:58:07Z Skrylar: yeah, the turnaround time to get something useful is really low 2015-07-28T01:59:34Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-28T02:00:07Z scottj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T02:01:00Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-07-28T02:02:22Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-28T02:02:27Z digiorgi: a new competitor for CL-WHO 2015-07-28T02:02:28Z digiorgi: https://github.com/digiorgi/cl-to-html 2015-07-28T02:02:41Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-28T02:04:07Z loke: digiorgi: I really prefer plain templates. Which I why I wrote my own template language 2015-07-28T02:04:26Z loke: which compiles to native CL, making is quite fast. thankyouverymuch 2015-07-28T02:05:02Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-28T02:06:12Z digiorgi: loke: what do you mean by "plain templates"? I'm new in the web-programming world 2015-07-28T02:06:31Z loke: digiorgi: Basically a tempate language. 2015-07-28T02:07:22Z jason_m: i was pondering just yesterday: rails, django, microsofts MVC all are built around a stronger separation between the html template and the "program". Is that the "right" way to do it? Do they do it that way because their base languages (ruby, python, c# etc.) aren't lisp? 2015-07-28T02:08:05Z Zhivago: One reason for that separation is browser incompatibilities. 2015-07-28T02:08:32Z loke: Docbrowser embeds an older version of my template language. Here's an example of it: https://github.com/lokedhs/docbrowser/blob/master/src/template/show_package.tmpl 2015-07-28T02:08:45Z Zhivago: Another is that html encodes display structural qualities, although these are increasingly handled by stylesheets. 2015-07-28T02:09:13Z loke: template code is within <% %>. The thing transparently recompiles the file on changes, and it compiles directly into native functions, which should make it among the fastest template systems out there 2015-07-28T02:10:58Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-28T02:12:16Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T02:12:26Z jason_m: loke: that template approach seems to be "winning" in the marketplace 2015-07-28T02:13:06Z loke: jason_m: I like it, and the fact that I designed the template compiler allows me to add the features/syntax that I want 2015-07-28T02:13:21Z jason_m: if your base language is c#, then yes, you use the template approach. imagine what the c# that generates the html would look like! 2015-07-28T02:13:29Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-28T02:13:57Z jason_m: so cl-who and a project like digiorgi's make me stop and think 2015-07-28T02:14:15Z jason_m: with those, it isn't so bad creating the html in your base language 2015-07-28T02:14:19Z loke: Other people probably hatest the syntax and tt's not very well documented. For example, to output the value of a variable, you prefix with #, like #foo. To output without escaping you use r#foo 2015-07-28T02:14:30Z loke: I'm sure purists would hate that :-) 2015-07-28T02:15:56Z loke: By the way, here's the parser code in case anyone is curious: https://github.com/lokedhs/lofn/blob/master/parser.lisp 2015-07-28T02:19:10Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T02:20:21Z jason_m: loke: very cool. i was curious how django's template system was implemented, but never looked under the hood. I'll have to take a look at what you did. 2015-07-28T02:22:51Z loke: I doubt any other system compiles to native code on the fly :-) 2015-07-28T02:23:17Z theos: knock knock 2015-07-28T02:23:28Z loke: The closts, I think, is JSP which invokes the Java compiler. It's much slower of course (since CL compilation is faster than than that of java) 2015-07-28T02:23:39Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T02:23:48Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-28T02:23:58Z jason_m: i think that's the right approach. or perhaps there is a hybrid approach were you use something like cl-who to specify the template at a little higher level than html, but it is further removed from your application logic. but this is really outside of my area of knowledge. 2015-07-28T02:24:45Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-28T02:25:27Z eazar_sunny_day quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-28T02:26:31Z loke: Is cl-who compiling to Lisp or is it reprocessing the data every time? 2015-07-28T02:27:39Z loke: In my ideal world, a page without any dynamic content should compile to a single WRITE-SEQUENCE call that writes the binary output to the result stream (which is why my system does that :-) ) 2015-07-28T02:29:06Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-28T02:29:06Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T02:29:36Z jason_m: well, i first played with cl-who yesterday :) but i believe i'd answer your question with "compiling to lisp". and i think what digiorgi's project does is partially compile, but still allow for dynamic content 2015-07-28T02:30:21Z loke: well of course. My example referred to a template without <% in my case, and in cl-who's case a template which is nothing more than static stucture 2015-07-28T02:30:49Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T02:31:11Z Zhivago: loke: Why not just have it generate a file? :) 2015-07-28T02:31:41Z loke: Zhivago: Because usually one does have dynamic content :-) 2015-07-28T02:31:46Z gendl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-28T02:31:47Z gendl_ is now known as gendl 2015-07-28T02:32:59Z loke: so basically, my language compiles the following: foo<% for repeat 10 with x %>Value: <% #x end %>bar 2015-07-28T02:33:00Z loke: into: 2015-07-28T02:33:27Z grizzlydeer: Can you write an OS in Lisp like you can in C? 2015-07-28T02:33:45Z Zhivago: If you are sufficiently deranged. 2015-07-28T02:34:08Z loke: (progn (write-sequence ZZ) (loop for x from 0 below 10 do (progn (write-sequence ... S) (princ x S))) 2015-07-28T02:34:20Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-28T02:34:24Z loke: where ZZ is the UTF-8 representation of "foo" 2015-07-28T02:34:50Z loke: Hey, Emacs is written in mostly Lisp and it's considered by many to be an OS 2015-07-28T02:35:01Z grizzlydeer: Zhivago: What? 2015-07-28T02:35:05Z jason_m: (only lacking a text editor!) 2015-07-28T02:36:19Z Zhivago: grizzly: What which? 2015-07-28T02:36:19Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-28T02:37:03Z jason_m: were the fabled lisp machines lisp all the way down? or were they a lisp interface on top of C? 2015-07-28T02:37:03Z grizzlydeer: "If you are sufficiently deranged." 2015-07-28T02:37:18Z grizzlydeer: jason_m: Yes, I'd like to know that too. 2015-07-28T02:37:41Z Zhivago: They were lisp down to assembly. 2015-07-28T02:38:01Z Zhivago: They did have C compilers, but they were written in lisp. 2015-07-28T02:38:23Z Zhivago: C is not special with respect to writing operating systems. 2015-07-28T02:38:35Z grizzlydeer: So, Lisp was to Lisp machines what C is to Linux? 2015-07-28T02:38:58Z Quadrescence: Yes. 2015-07-28T02:39:21Z Quadrescence: I would add that the assembly of Lisp machines did cater to Lisp compilation especially. 2015-07-28T02:39:22Z loke: jason_m: The Lisp amchines (at least some of them) had C compilers that compiled to Lisp. The reason for this is that the computer's microcode was tailored to Lisp. 2015-07-28T02:39:30Z Quadrescence: Stack-based, tagged, fast function calls. 2015-07-28T02:40:09Z grizzlydeer: Nice! I never knew such a language -- a language with such high abstraction -- was capable of doing such low-level things like running a machine. 2015-07-28T02:40:18Z Zhivago: What high abstraction? 2015-07-28T02:40:27Z jason_m: loke: very cool - so the opposite of what we have today? 2015-07-28T02:40:28Z grizzlydeer: Compared to C. 2015-07-28T02:40:47Z Zhivago: What high abstraction, compared to C? 2015-07-28T02:41:03Z Quadrescence: grizzlydeer, One thing to note is that the Lisp machine had special functions and data types for (possibly unsafely) working with very low-level code. Most Lisp compilers these days internally to them have such functions, like working with raw pointers. 2015-07-28T02:41:34Z dafunktion quit 2015-07-28T02:41:38Z grizzlydeer: There's garbage collection in Lisp; memory management -- a common low-level concept -- isn't necessary in Lisp, which I thought made low-level stuff in Lisp kind of hard as a result. 2015-07-28T02:41:56Z Zhivago: GC does not make memory management unnecessary. 2015-07-28T02:42:10Z Zhivago: It simply automates some processes. 2015-07-28T02:42:38Z theos: how much money would it take to motivate CL programmers to write the linux kernel in CL? 2015-07-28T02:43:18Z Quadrescence: several million over several years 2015-07-28T02:44:00Z jason_m: writing the hurd in CL seems more interesting anyway :-p 2015-07-28T02:44:06Z grizzlydeer: Okay, so, apparently, there's even an OS in Lisp called Genera 2015-07-28T02:44:13Z Quadrescence: Yes, for the Lisp machine. 2015-07-28T02:45:44Z loke: Hardware tagged pointers are coming back though. It'd be interesting to see if Lisp compilers can take advantage of it. 2015-07-28T02:45:52Z Zhivago: Writing OSes is largely a waste of time. 2015-07-28T02:46:09Z Zhivago: A modern OS is essentially a vehicle for virtual machines with abstract drivers. 2015-07-28T02:46:12Z grizzlydeer: How does Genera compare to Windows, Mac and Linux? 2015-07-28T02:46:32Z Zhivago: With a zillion concrete drivers implemented behind those. 2015-07-28T02:46:33Z Quadrescence: grizzlydeer, it is a very, very, very different kind of operating system 2015-07-28T02:46:38Z White_Flame: it's a single-user OS, that has far more dynamic and programmer-accessible applictaions 2015-07-28T02:46:43Z Quadrescence: grizzlydeer, think of it more as a very large IDE 2015-07-28T02:46:48Z Zhivago: So there's very little point in re-inventing that. 2015-07-28T02:46:49Z Quadrescence: it is very programming-centric. 2015-07-28T02:47:09Z Quadrescence: grizzlydeer, you literally boot up into a Lisp listener to execute Lisp commands. 2015-07-28T02:47:11Z Zhivago: Genera would be a better fit for a linux process, these days, than as a modern OS. 2015-07-28T02:47:31Z Zhivago: Although you could make similar arguments given the rise of hypervisors with abstract hardware. 2015-07-28T02:47:36Z grizzlydeer: So, like, you can't browse the internet and join Freenode with Genera then? 2015-07-28T02:47:54Z Zhivago: It's just a question of how convenient the interfaces are, and if you have interfaces for IPC and process generation or not. 2015-07-28T02:48:00Z Quadrescence: grizzlydeer, You could make an IRC client. 2015-07-28T02:48:02Z White_Flame: grizzlydeer: sure you can 2015-07-28T02:48:11Z White_Flame: they were certainly networked 2015-07-28T02:48:21Z White_Flame: though they didn't have any memory protection 2015-07-28T02:48:31Z Quadrescence: grizzlydeer, there were many applications written for Genera. Many. But they were not the way you usually imagine them as on Windows or modern desktop Linux distros 2015-07-28T02:48:33Z loke: Porting a browser to it would be a huge project though 2015-07-28T02:48:37Z jason_m: Zhivago: I think Rob Pike laments that point of view http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf 2015-07-28T02:48:46Z White_Flame: so for instance, one user could connect to your lisp machine, have their own independent interactive graphical session, but there's actaully nothing protecting you from them 2015-07-28T02:49:07Z White_Flame: (except the initial connection credentials) 2015-07-28T02:49:34Z grizzlydeer: Yes, I just read that somehwere: that Genera had poor security. 2015-07-28T02:49:54Z jason_m: i personally wonder if we won't "solve" security until a major evolution in systems design. the tools generally exist today, but people don't seem to understand or use them. how many times do i need to read about a company losing information to hackers? 2015-07-28T02:50:02Z White_Flame: before the internet was common, there weren't a lot of bad actors on the net to worry about 2015-07-28T02:50:24Z White_Flame: although many people warned of the potential threats 2015-07-28T02:50:58Z White_Flame: jason_m: ship first, worry about problems later 2015-07-28T02:51:16Z grizzlydeer: Can I get Genera like I can Ubuntu or Windows 8? 2015-07-28T02:51:21Z White_Flame: companies don't even care if it's their undoing, if they can post high current quarter revenues 2015-07-28T02:51:50Z White_Flame: grizzlydeer: yes, images are out there (not sure of the legality), but you can't run them on x86 2015-07-28T02:52:10Z White_Flame: there were some commercial emulators for the system, but I think they're in pirateland (not sure) 2015-07-28T02:53:00Z akkad: ok refactored a bit. https://gist.github.com/dd67ea52f55bb89c6585 2015-07-28T02:54:20Z Zhivago: I think he's simply wrong. 2015-07-28T02:54:34Z Zhivago: What's happening is that processes are a largely solved problem. 2015-07-28T02:54:52Z Zhivago: The systems research has moved into distributed systems involving the orchestration of multiple processes. 2015-07-28T02:55:03Z Zhivago: And I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with that. 2015-07-28T02:55:51Z White_Flame: Zhivago: yes, I tend to reach for application-level solutions rather than wishing or writing OS changes 2015-07-28T02:56:04Z grizzlydeer: Scheme and Lisp code look A LOT alike. (I'm on Rosetta Code, btw.) 2015-07-28T02:56:13Z White_Flame: grizzlydeer: that's because Scheme is a Lisp 2015-07-28T02:56:23Z White_Flame: Common Lisp is also a Lisp 2015-07-28T02:58:18Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T02:59:38Z grizzlydeer: White_Flame: Someone here before told me that Scheme wasn't a Lisp. 2015-07-28T03:00:02Z theos: some people dont like scheme. but scheme is a lisp. an old one. 2015-07-28T03:00:29Z White_Flame: grizzlydeer: Scheme is not Common Lisp 2015-07-28T03:00:54Z White_Flame: a good amount of learning-curve confusion is distinguishing between "Common Lisp" the language, and "Lisp" as a family/style of langauges 2015-07-28T03:01:45Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:02:02Z theos: grizzlydeer its like C++ belongs to the C-like family of languages. so do C and C#. but C# is not C++. same way scheme is not Common Lisp 2015-07-28T03:02:31Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:03:35Z grizzlydeer: Wasn't a Naughty Dogs game written in Lisp? 2015-07-28T03:03:47Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T03:03:51Z shum joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:03:54Z jason_m: grizzlydeer: This channel is for a particular Lisp called Common Lisp. If you just say Lisp, people will generally assume you're talking about common lisp. scheme is not common lisp. but both scheme and common lisp are in the Lisp family of languages. 2015-07-28T03:05:27Z shum quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-28T03:06:20Z grizzlydeer: Is there some source code for simple games written in Lisp? 2015-07-28T03:06:48Z kristof: grizzlydeer: It was written in a dialect of Lisp called GOOL that was developed in house for Crash Bandicoot. 2015-07-28T03:06:51Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:07:03Z White_Flame: grizzlydeer: the book "Land of Lisp" is all about that 2015-07-28T03:07:12Z White_Flame: teaching Common Lisp via writing simple games 2015-07-28T03:07:23Z White_Flame: many are text-based, others serve a web browser context for the UI 2015-07-28T03:07:27Z grizzlydeer: Is it any good, in comparison to SICP or CL? 2015-07-28T03:07:31Z theos: grizzlydeer you can refer to common lisp as CL. 2015-07-28T03:07:37Z grizzlydeer: *PCL 2015-07-28T03:08:00Z grizzlydeer: theos: Yeah, I'll start doing that for the sake of clarity. :) 2015-07-28T03:08:08Z White_Flame: grizzlydeer: It's not very formal, but it's well regarded 2015-07-28T03:08:22Z White_Flame: iirc, it teaches programming from scratch, but it's been a long time since I read it 2015-07-28T03:12:48Z grizzlydeer: Do most Lispers use 2 char indentation? 2015-07-28T03:12:53Z grizzlydeer: per indent 2015-07-28T03:13:29Z White_Flame: most use Emacs & SLIME, and don't really think about the actual number of spaces :) 2015-07-28T03:13:59Z White_Flame: there's different ways to indent sub-parts of the list, depending on if they're declared a &body or not 2015-07-28T03:14:22Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:17:20Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T03:20:21Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T03:21:42Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T03:23:20Z ssake quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-28T03:25:15Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:25:29Z PuercoPop: grizzlydeer: There is a recent OS in Lisp https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano (a WIP though) 2015-07-28T03:27:34Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:27:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-28T03:28:18Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-28T03:29:11Z eazar_fresh_air joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:29:52Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:31:19Z theos: hey beach 2015-07-28T03:31:57Z grizzlydeer: Is Haskell as versatile as Lisp? 2015-07-28T03:31:58Z jebes quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-28T03:32:44Z Skrylar: grizzlydeer: i'm not sure what you mean by that 2015-07-28T03:32:57Z Quadrescence: grizzlydeer, in some sense it is more versatile! 2015-07-28T03:33:00Z Skrylar: haskell is a fine language; it doesn't have macros though 2015-07-28T03:33:16Z Quadrescence: the lazy evaluation as a core thing allows different abstraction boundaries to be formed easily 2015-07-28T03:33:20Z jebes joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:33:41Z grizzlydeer: Like, Lisp was used on actual machines, and was used to create an operating system and stuff, like C, but can also be used for high-level theory and stuff too. 2015-07-28T03:33:50Z jebes: yes 2015-07-28T03:33:57Z White_Flame: I don't think Haskell is as plastic in its its language semantics as Lisp, but I'm not the most informed on the topic 2015-07-28T03:34:20Z Skrylar: the ghc compiler produces machine code for haskell; Chucklefish is writing their latest game engine in that. 2015-07-28T03:34:27Z Skrylar: So not quite an operating system, but its seen use 2015-07-28T03:34:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T03:34:51Z Zhivago: The main issue with lazy evaluation is that resource consumption is very hard to predict. 2015-07-28T03:34:59Z Zhivago: It's a bit like GC in that respect. 2015-07-28T03:36:58Z grizzlydeer: So, an OS like Genera can be written to work on a machine and then you could say you have 'Haskell machines'? 2015-07-28T03:37:44Z Skrylar: if the definition you are using is "can you make an OS with it?" then i would assume that is true for any language that is both turing complete and has a compiler to raw assembly 2015-07-28T03:37:45Z theos: why not make CL machines? 2015-07-28T03:38:04Z Zhivago: We do. 2015-07-28T03:38:13Z Skrylar: theos: symbolics did :) 2015-07-28T03:38:14Z Zhivago: What do you think CL programs run on? 2015-07-28T03:38:33Z Skrylar: there's also the joke that emacs is basically a Lisp Machine with an editor attached 2015-07-28T03:38:33Z Zhivago: Just like we have the C Abstract Machine, which C programs run on. 2015-07-28T03:38:37Z theos: i mean, every program in CL. the kernel, the OS 2015-07-28T03:38:51Z Skrylar: theos: because C won out in the end 2015-07-28T03:39:06Z Skrylar: symbolics lisp machines did exist, and they did run lisp os' if i recall 2015-07-28T03:39:27Z theos: Skrylar C didnt win because it is better than CL 2015-07-28T03:39:30Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T03:39:31Z pjb`: minion: memo for aeth: it's not called an "expert", it's called a "programmer" DUH. 2015-07-28T03:39:32Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell aeth when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-28T03:39:56Z Skrylar: theos: right, and i didn't say that it did 2015-07-28T03:41:33Z Skrylar: there's a lot of silly reasons why better technologies lose out on the market to worse ones :) 2015-07-28T03:42:08Z theos: we need to replace java with CL in school curriculum 2015-07-28T03:42:32Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:42:42Z grizzlydeer: I just read somewhere on YouTube that Lisp is the "oldest language of the future". 2015-07-28T03:42:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: pls don't 2015-07-28T03:42:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: I enjoy having a niche lang. 2015-07-28T03:43:06Z Skrylar: grizzlydeer: well a lot of medical stuff apparently runs on lisp 2015-07-28T03:43:22Z Skrylar: it turns out when the person isn't trained on c first they have no problem with lisp syntax, or so says biomedical people 2015-07-28T03:43:52Z Skrylar: also theos, academic lisp/scheme is too advanced for most of those people :) 2015-07-28T03:43:53Z grizzlydeer: So, Lisp is the dominant language in the medical field or something? 2015-07-28T03:44:05Z Skrylar: i don't think its a dominant language anywhere 2015-07-28T03:44:14Z Skrylar: there's just more of it there than not 2015-07-28T03:44:41Z grizzlydeer: So, what does "oldest language of the future" mean? I thought Lisp was *dying*. 2015-07-28T03:44:45Z loke: It's the dominant language in this channel. 2015-07-28T03:45:57Z Skrylar: grizzlydeer: because lisp is old and people are still pillaging features from it 2015-07-28T03:46:04Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T03:46:21Z pjb`: grizzlydeer: Genera was the OS on which everything has been invented! Windows comes from Mac which comes from Smalltalk which comes from LispMachines. Hypertext was invented on LispMachines, 3D graphics was invented on LispMachine, computer animation was invented on LispMachines, everything. Even the www was invented on NeXTSTEP thanks to Interface Builder which was originally a Lisp program. WIthout lisp, the www wouldn't have be 2015-07-28T03:46:21Z pjb`: invented. 2015-07-28T03:46:22Z Skrylar: often times the new feature of some new commercial language is a rebranded version of a framework somebody wrote in lisp ten years earlier 2015-07-28T03:46:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: lisp is the dominant language for writing proteins now, right? 2015-07-28T03:46:46Z pjb`: right. 2015-07-28T03:46:54Z pjb`: artificial proteins that is. 2015-07-28T03:47:34Z pjb`: jasom: security is a solved problem. Only nobody wants it. 2015-07-28T03:47:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hopefully we can move away from the current binary blobs we're using. 2015-07-28T03:47:45Z grizzlydeer: Anyone have some source code for a game written in CL? 2015-07-28T03:48:01Z nyef: Petit_Dejeuner: Quaternary blobs, not binary blobs. 2015-07-28T03:48:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: grizzlydeer: pick one, http://xelf.me/profile.html 2015-07-28T03:48:34Z loke: Hmm, why does grizzlydeer remind me of someone who used to post on c.l.l? 2015-07-28T03:48:39Z pjb`: jasom: just use a capability based OS. 2015-07-28T03:48:50Z pjb`: loke: because he's gavino, obviously. 2015-07-28T03:48:58Z Fare: dim: herep 2015-07-28T03:49:01Z loke: pjb`: Yeah, I figured 2015-07-28T03:49:04Z beach tries his best to stay out of this discussion. 2015-07-28T03:49:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: nyef: Oh, well that must be okay to link to GPL proteins then. 2015-07-28T03:49:17Z Fare: dim: I pushed the cl-asdf deb's to mentors.debian.net 2015-07-28T03:49:17Z theos: what the... gavino really? fooled me 2015-07-28T03:49:31Z Fare: what matrix library do you recommend? clem? 2015-07-28T03:49:34Z nyef: beach: Heh. I've been waiting here for hours, wondering why they're feeding the troll. 2015-07-28T03:49:40Z loke: theos: Yeah, he's slightly improved his trolling skills :-) 2015-07-28T03:49:45Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-07-28T03:49:47Z theos: :( 2015-07-28T03:49:48Z Fare: I'd like something that can compute eigenvalues. 2015-07-28T03:49:54Z pjb`: theos: it's conceivable that there are several gavino, but only if they're clones. 2015-07-28T03:50:13Z beach: nyef: Are you still working on NQ-CLIM? 2015-07-28T03:50:14Z grizzlydeer: I'm not this gavino person you think I am. 2015-07-28T03:50:31Z grizzlydeer: Whatever I did to remind of him, I'm sorry. 2015-07-28T03:50:35Z grizzlydeer: Was it all of the questions? 2015-07-28T03:50:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: Troll AI's written in Lisp. 2015-07-28T03:50:44Z nyef: beach: Taking a semi-break, since I broke my github streak anyway. 2015-07-28T03:50:46Z Fare: btw, what does this form return for you? (apply 'mapcar 'list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9))) 2015-07-28T03:51:01Z beach: nyef: Oh, yeah. It's the opportunity. 2015-07-28T03:51:08Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:51:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: Fare: ((1 4 7) (2 5 8) (3 6 9)) 2015-07-28T03:51:54Z beach: Fare: It's the traditional transpose function for a matrix represented as lists of lists. 2015-07-28T03:52:09Z pjb`: Skrylar: you don't need a compiler to "raw assembly", whatever that means, to write an OS. For example, the UCSD system was written in Pascal with compilers generating p-code. 2015-07-28T03:52:29Z theos: Fare ((1 4 7) (2 5 8) (3 6 9)) 2015-07-28T03:52:31Z pjb`: (and Microsoft was delivering Office applications compiled to p-code until they had .NET). 2015-07-28T03:52:38Z loke: ((1 7 NIL) (2 8 NIL) (3 9 NIL)) 2015-07-28T03:52:55Z Zhivago: Which has its own kind of p-code. 2015-07-28T03:53:00Z pjb`: So if Microsoft can deliver apps compiled to p-code with a VM, you can deliver lisp apps compiled with clisp to the clisp byte code and its VM. 2015-07-28T03:53:11Z White_Flame: pjb`: for that sort of system, I would consider the "OS" to be written in assembly, while applications are written in pascal 2015-07-28T03:53:55Z beach: loke: Your Common Lisp system is broken. 2015-07-28T03:53:56Z nyef: beach: I've also made the discovery today that I have absolutely NO computers that function the way that they "should". Between one machine that reliably fails to resume from hibernate, one machine with a trashed development infrastructure, one machine with a failing screen, one machine where the network card has somehow lost its PCI IDs... 2015-07-28T03:53:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke: implementation? 2015-07-28T03:54:07Z Zhivago: white: That doesn't sound like a useful consideration. 2015-07-28T03:54:18Z Skrylar: i'm not having *that* argument again. if the machine eats cubes of tofu and converts it to data then blocks of tofu are what the OS has to be written in, it doesn't matter the syntax otherwise 2015-07-28T03:54:20Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: SBCL "1.2.13.74-e8db3cc" 2015-07-28T03:54:21Z beach: nyef: Wow, that sucks. 2015-07-28T03:54:30Z beach: nyef: What are you planning to do about it? 2015-07-28T03:54:42Z nyef: I don't know. 2015-07-28T03:54:53Z pjb`: nyef: well, you're lucky that it doesn't happen all on the same and unique machine! You can still work across your network; the network's the computer. 2015-07-28T03:54:56Z nyef: Some of it I'm just going to live with. 2015-07-28T03:54:59Z PuercoPop: could a 'stale' db connection cause a memory fault? I'm using save-lisp-and-die after using postmodern's connect-toplevel. When running the executable I get unandled memory error on exec-query. 2015-07-28T03:55:03Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:55:09Z pjb`: Sometimes you just have to buy new hardware. 2015-07-28T03:55:31Z nyef: pjb`: I have new hardware on order. It's currently due in September, maybe. 2015-07-28T03:55:59Z Fare: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1478768 2015-07-28T03:56:11Z White_Flame: Zhivago: the OS sets up processes, manages interrupts/IO devices/process-level memory, etc. If these are done in some p-code with some low-level primitives that hit the hardware, fine. 2015-07-28T03:56:33Z nyef: The machine with a trashed development environment is my main "work" machine, so it's going to be tolerated for rather a while longer. 2015-07-28T03:56:34Z White_Flame: but if that work is done at the asm level underneath p-code, then it's hard to say that the OS itself is pcode 2015-07-28T03:56:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke: weird, I'm not getting any nils 2015-07-28T03:57:07Z White_Flame: s/underneath/transparent to/ 2015-07-28T03:57:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: I don't know if I'm using anything that recent though, I've only got 1.2.1 in my version number 2015-07-28T03:57:29Z Zhivago: white: If the OS sets up the virtual machines your program runs in, then the OS is irrelevant -- the process is the machine. 2015-07-28T03:57:41Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:57:52Z pjb`: White_Flame: your argument is ridiculous. The actual working of the hardware may very well be implemented ten turtles below, even when you write "native" assembler: your processor may translate this native code to microcode, there may be funny things done with pipelines, out-of-order executions and stuff. 2015-07-28T03:58:03Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: what version are you using? 2015-07-28T03:58:13Z nyef: The machine that can't hibernate is running OSX Mavericks. I may just give up on that and see if Linux has a chance at being usable on that hardware. 2015-07-28T03:58:14Z White_Flame: Zhivago: right. I believe the discussion here was the "what turns the bare-metal hardware into a functional computational environment" view of the OS 2015-07-28T03:58:37Z Zhivago: There is no bare-metal hardware. There is just the machine the code runs in. 2015-07-28T03:58:50Z Skrylar: Apparently the discussion here is we all need to appease whatever syntax pjb` wants said because trying to come to an understanding is verbotten. 2015-07-28T03:59:01Z White_Flame: Zhivago: and what is the "machine" written in? 2015-07-28T03:59:07Z aeth: aaaaand... this computer suddenly went back to getting assigned an IP from the router instead of using a fixed one I knew how to ssh into. Too bad worse-is-better won and we have hugely complex machines that never behave the way we want them to. 2015-07-28T03:59:07Z minion: aeth, memo from pjb`: it's not called an "expert", it's called a "programmer" DUH. 2015-07-28T03:59:07Z White_Flame: I mean, I agree wiht the recursive nature of this 2015-07-28T03:59:08Z loke: Fare: no need to use APPLY, I'm getting an error doing this: 2015-07-28T03:59:09Z loke: (mapcar #'list '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6) '(7 8 9)) 2015-07-28T03:59:34Z gavino joined #lisp 2015-07-28T03:59:36Z White_Flame: but "can you write the OS in language $X" seems pretty indicative of the general hardware layer (virtualized or not) 2015-07-28T03:59:49Z pjb`: The machine can be written in anything, from Common Lisp to verilog to hardwired by hand. 2015-07-28T03:59:57Z Zhivago: white: It doesn't matter how the machine is reified. 2015-07-28T04:00:14Z gavino left #lisp 2015-07-28T04:00:18Z Zhivago: white: The only significant thing is the semantics of its operation. 2015-07-28T04:00:26Z pjb`: And even if you figure a machine implemented in verilog, you may suddently be running in qemu in a machine written in C! 2015-07-28T04:00:39Z White_Flame: Zhivago: the only significant thing is the base level which executes the system. It is that which OSes are written to 2015-07-28T04:00:46Z Zhivago: There is no base level. 2015-07-28T04:00:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke: My version seem to be just 1.2.1, I should probably update it. 2015-07-28T04:00:49Z Skrylar: the hardware has to understand what you're telling it to do 2015-07-28T04:00:53Z pjb`: This is a meaningless question. 2015-07-28T04:00:56Z Zhivago: There is just the machine your program runs in. 2015-07-28T04:00:57Z White_Flame: Zhivago: right, the level immediately under the OS 2015-07-28T04:01:22Z Zhivago: There is no level under the os -- the only level that exists is that of the machine your code runs in -- the process. 2015-07-28T04:01:27Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: My result is the incorrect one 2015-07-28T04:01:32Z pjb`: Computers are not physical machines. Computers are mathematical constructs equivalent to Turing Machines or Lambda Calculus. 2015-07-28T04:01:44Z White_Flame: which, without general context, and in comparison to common OSes, implicates the question as one running on top of generally available populated x86 motherboards, virtualized simulations of such, and other devices 2015-07-28T04:01:49Z loke: My version is from july 15 2015-07-28T04:01:51Z grizzlydeer: White_Flame: Nope. The kernel. 2015-07-28T04:02:09Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:02:13Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:02:15Z Skrylar: Zhivago: well there sort of is; running bare-metal is different than running under linux or windows 2015-07-28T04:02:23Z White_Flame: Skrylar: it's all just APIs 2015-07-28T04:02:38Z Skrylar: some of the CPUs have protection levels IIRC 2015-07-28T04:02:45Z White_Flame: I agree in principle with what Zhivago et al are saying, I don't think it's the context discussed above, though 2015-07-28T04:02:55Z Zhivago: skrklar: Those are part of the process semantics. 2015-07-28T04:03:09Z pjb`: That some physical machine may have some state transitions performed in parallel to the working of the immaterial mathematical machines called computer is basically irrelevant, and just a happy hasard, of which we, programmers, are not responsible at all: you have to thank the electronicians for that. But we, programmers, can do without those electronic machines, since we can always write a virtual machine! 2015-07-28T04:03:26Z grizzlydeer: So, the low-level stuff you guys are talking about you do in Lisp? 2015-07-28T04:03:29Z Zhivago: You can certainly have different process semantics, some of which you might classify as 'bare-metal', even though they may have nothing to do with bare-metal. 2015-07-28T04:03:33Z Skrylar: i seem to remember this channel being significantly less nitpicky a year ago 2015-07-28T04:03:44Z Zhivago: grizzly: What does low-level mean? 2015-07-28T04:03:46Z pjb`: grizzlydeer: there's no difference between low level and high level stuff. 2015-07-28T04:03:50Z pjb`: There's only computing stuff. 2015-07-28T04:03:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: grizzlydeer: Did you find a game you liked? 2015-07-28T04:03:54Z Skrylar: almost every OS diagram shows the metal below the kernel and other things on top of it, which gives rise to the idea that there is something "under" the OS 2015-07-28T04:03:55Z theos: C is low level 2015-07-28T04:04:26Z Zhivago: skrylar: Those are kind lies for those who lack understanding. 2015-07-28T04:04:33Z grizzlydeer: Petit_Dejeuner: 2x0ng 2015-07-28T04:04:33Z pjb`: Skrylar: it's all turtles down under ad infinitum! 2015-07-28T04:04:35Z aeth_: You can write kernels in certain dialects Lisp, therefore you can write "low level" stuff in Lisp. 2015-07-28T04:04:41Z Skrylar: Zhivago: a lie is an act of maliciousness 2015-07-28T04:04:50Z Zhivago: skrylar: You are confused. 2015-07-28T04:04:51Z kristof: theos: Is the glibc allocator low level? 2015-07-28T04:04:53Z pjb`: theos: Common Lisp is lower level than C. Try to do ldb or dpb in C! 2015-07-28T04:04:54Z aeth_: There are probably also dialects of Lisp that compile to Verilog for when you want to write very low level stuff in Lisp :-p 2015-07-28T04:05:02Z aeth_: (not Common Lisp, though) 2015-07-28T04:05:06Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T04:05:11Z theos: pjb` i was making fun of C :S 2015-07-28T04:05:13Z Zhivago: skrylar: Many lies are kind and form the basis for a functioning civilization. 2015-07-28T04:05:17Z Skrylar: Zhivago: no, there's a difference between a lie and a conceptual device 2015-07-28T04:05:24Z pjb`: aeth_: there are people who compile lisp to FGPAs. 2015-07-28T04:05:49Z theos: those are good people ^^ 2015-07-28T04:05:55Z Zhivago: skyrlar: So, tell me what the difference is between a process implemented by a kernel, and a process implemented in hardware, given that they have the same semantics? 2015-07-28T04:06:12Z aeth_: pjb`: I haven't programmed for FPGAs. Would you have to compile it to Verilog first or can you do it directly or does it depend on the FPGA? 2015-07-28T04:06:20Z Skrylar: depends entirely on the kernel and the hardware 2015-07-28T04:06:21Z pjb`: Skrylar: mathematical objects exist independent of the universe. The universe is a simulation on a lambda calculus construct in abstract eternal mathematics. 2015-07-28T04:06:31Z Skrylar: if its android then you're probably not running anywhere near the metal 2015-07-28T04:06:39Z grizzlydeer: pjb`: So, I can program in Arduino in Lisp? 2015-07-28T04:07:05Z huza joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:07:07Z pjb`: aeth_: I don't know how they do it. You may ask them: http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.fr/2013/06/lisp-hackers-marc-battyani.html 2015-07-28T04:07:20Z pjb`: grizzlydeer: you can. 2015-07-28T04:07:50Z kristof: What a weird discussion. 2015-07-28T04:08:10Z Skrylar: kristof: yeah.. it seems to be commonplace now :\ 2015-07-28T04:08:11Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:08:26Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T04:08:29Z Zhivago: pjb: It's possible that the universe has non-deterministic elements, which would invalidate that assertion. 2015-07-28T04:08:44Z aeth_: pjb`: It looks like they generate it with Lisp and/or a DSL written in Lisp. "I really like it when from a few 100s of lines written in a easy to use high level DSL we generate 10000 to 60000+ lines of very low level VHDL code saving months of development." 2015-07-28T04:09:31Z pjb`: Zhivago: the simulation is not necessarily "mechanistic". Clearly, it's quantic. And you know that physicians are making the link between information theory and quantic mechanics. 2015-07-28T04:10:15Z aeth_: VHDL, not Verilog, though. I was wrong 2015-07-28T04:10:23Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2015-07-28T04:10:48Z Zhivago: pjb: Regardless, lambda calculus requires determinism. 2015-07-28T04:11:05Z aeth: grizzlydeer: so there's your answer. You can program an FPGA in Lisp. Even an Arduino is way too high level compared to that. :-p 2015-07-28T04:11:48Z grizzlydeer: aeth: It seems so. :D 2015-07-28T04:11:58Z grizzlydeer: kristof: What, programming an Arduino in Lisp? 2015-07-28T04:12:09Z aeth: It's really, really, really easy to generate code with Lisp because you get to cheat and skip a step on the input side by writing in s-expressions. That means you don't have to parse your language iirc. 2015-07-28T04:12:42Z grizzlydeer: Aren't Lisp family languages equally good as Python, since both are like psuedocode? 2015-07-28T04:12:51Z grizzlydeer: (For a first lang, I mean.) 2015-07-28T04:13:10Z pjb`: Just boot linux on your Arduino, and run CL on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm0POwEtiqE 2015-07-28T04:13:19Z aeth: If you wanted to compile a little Pythonic language written in Python to some other language (e.g. GLSL, C, JS) you'd have to write more code. 2015-07-28T04:13:41Z beach: grizzlydeer: I think you have used up your allotted dose of naive questions. 2015-07-28T04:14:19Z aeth: all the fancy stuff like this isn't free... def foo():\n print "Hello world" 2015-07-28T04:14:41Z aeth: There's a lot of things that are implicit in that syntax. 2015-07-28T04:14:48Z scottj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-28T04:14:55Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T04:15:00Z aeth: So if you wanted to write a little Pythonic language that compiled to something else, you'd have to handle it, or a subset of it. 2015-07-28T04:15:02Z kristof: I've never read something so aggressive from beach before. :o 2015-07-28T04:15:44Z aeth: With Lisp, you have to manage parentheses, and you (usually) have to use prefix notation, but you basically get trivial parsing for free because of that. And if you write a language in s-expressions instead of strings, you don't even need to do that within the program. 2015-07-28T04:15:53Z aeth: So Lisp is basically *made* for writing little languages. 2015-07-28T04:16:09Z pjb`: or big languages. 2015-07-28T04:16:17Z Oladon: Or medium languages! 2015-07-28T04:17:10Z theos: pjb` running CL on an 8bit chip? 2015-07-28T04:17:12Z grizzlydeer: It's just that Lisp looks like psuedocode compared to this: http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4505/s-astanin.13/0_3e358_c9ec3cd3_XL.jpg 2015-07-28T04:17:13Z pjb`: Like PostgreSQL, ML (ancestor of Haskell), Smalltalk-72, Javascript, Fortran (f2cl), Python (cl-python), C (Zeta-C, Vacietis), Pascal, Ada (on Genera); Genera was the best Ada workstation there was in its time. 2015-07-28T04:17:15Z grizzlydeer: (Haskell code.) 2015-07-28T04:18:10Z pjb`: You seem to like it. Why don't you go learn Haskell? 2015-07-28T04:18:15Z aeth: grizzlydeer: Haskell is made by mathematicians who think that the good thing about mathematics is the cryptic syntax. Not a good example. :-p 2015-07-28T04:18:21Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:19:34Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:19:39Z aeth: Before I found Lisp, I determined that mathematics and programming would be much better with postfix notation. And worked out a little pseudo-language. And then I found Lisp and found out that it did it much better except with prefix. Requiring the parentheses turns out to really make things a lot better. 2015-07-28T04:19:49Z grizzlydeer: pjb`: No, I agree with aeth, actually -- the syntax seems cryptic for the sake of being cryptic. I always thought Lisp was going to be syntactically mind-boggling, but it's pretty easy, imo, compared to that esoteric Haskell code. 2015-07-28T04:20:04Z pjb`: Yes. 2015-07-28T04:20:10Z pjb`: There's Liskell too. 2015-07-28T04:20:27Z aeth: If you don't require the parentheses, you basically wind up having to memorize the length of the arguments of each function, and you cannot have an arbitrary length argument. So if you want to add, you'd have to do + + 2 3 4 when in Lisp you can do (+ 2 3 4) 2015-07-28T04:20:47Z aeth: But of course not everything will be of length 2. And it gets really messy really quickly. 2015-07-28T04:21:41Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-28T04:22:08Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:22:36Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T04:22:44Z Skrylar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T04:23:04Z Skrylar joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:23:04Z aeth: But if you use prefix or postfix for absolutely everything (even if you don't require parentheses) you do make it a lot easier to make everything expressions in a very clear way. 2015-07-28T04:23:24Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:25:01Z scymtym_ is now known as scymtym 2015-07-28T04:25:10Z aeth: (find an emulator for the HP 48 calculator or download Droid 48 on Android... postfix is really fun to use interactively in a calculator) 2015-07-28T04:25:27Z aeth: (emacs' M-x calc is also postfix, I think) 2015-07-28T04:27:45Z aeth: Anyway, postfix and prefix have some really cool uses. If you ever have to take some test with a calculator for some reason, see if you can find a postfix calculator. They're much faster to work with than infix if you practice it. 2015-07-28T04:28:00Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:28:00Z govt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T04:28:07Z aeth: As for prefix, you can get this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression 2015-07-28T04:28:30Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:28:43Z White_Flame: postfix is straight-line execution ordering, while prefix is conceptual composition 2015-07-28T04:29:22Z c74d3 is now known as c74d 2015-07-28T04:29:35Z White_Flame: so while they're similar, the former is generally used at a lower level, where all the composition has been dealt with 2015-07-28T04:30:18Z aeth: With postfix you get a stack-based programming language or calculator... with prefix and s-expressions you get magic. Although I guess strictly speaking you could probably do the stack-based language with prefix if you just run things in reverse 2015-07-28T04:30:25Z j4cknewt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T04:30:54Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:31:33Z aeth: And you could probably get s-expressions in postfix, you'd just read the list backwards, I guess... So (car '(1 2 3 +)) would be '+ just like (car '(+ 1 2 3)) in Lisp 2015-07-28T04:31:59Z grizzlydeer: So, you're telling me I can make an LED blink with Lisp?!? 2015-07-28T04:32:12Z White_Flame: in that notation, the '(1 2 3 +) implies that the + has some way of knowing how many arguments there are 2015-07-28T04:32:14Z grizzlydeer: That's like the only reason I've wanted to learn C, and now you guys are saying it could be done in LIsp. 2015-07-28T04:32:17Z grizzlydeer: *Lisp 2015-07-28T04:32:19Z pjb`: aeth: no. ((1 2 3 +)' car) --> + 2015-07-28T04:32:23Z aeth: pjb`: oops 2015-07-28T04:32:36Z White_Flame: ok 2015-07-28T04:32:48Z pjb`: aeth: it's trivial to write a reader macro for #\( to do that, but to handle the ' it will be harder. 2015-07-28T04:32:48Z aeth: pjb`: you're right, I guess I was just thinking (foo-car '(1 2 3 +)) reading the language foo in Lisp 2015-07-28T04:32:56Z nyef: grizzlydeer: If all you want to do is make an LED blink, screw C, screw Lisp, get a 555 timer and use that. 2015-07-28T04:32:59Z White_Flame: grizzlydeer: as long as GPIO pins are exposed to a language API, any language can flip the LED 2015-07-28T04:33:10Z aeth: pjb`: in foo itself it would be ((1 2 3 +)' car), you're right 2015-07-28T04:33:33Z pjb` quit (Quit: Good night!) 2015-07-28T04:33:41Z aeth: grizzlydeer: if you can't directly do something in Lisp, you can write a trivial(ish) compiler into whatever you have to use. 2015-07-28T04:33:42Z White_Flame: aeth: the simplicity of postfix comes from the lack of boundaries 2015-07-28T04:33:56Z White_Flame: aeth: I mean, specific syntactic terms defining what values go where 2015-07-28T04:34:22Z grizzlydeer: Lisp seems like the most versatile language of them all, based on what I've seen posted here. 2015-07-28T04:34:43Z White_Flame: grizzlydeer: There's probably some bias there, this being #lisp and all, but yes 2015-07-28T04:34:55Z keen__________32 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T04:35:03Z White_Flame: if Lisp can't do it, then you can give Lisp more capabilities at the language level, and then it can do it 2015-07-28T04:35:11Z theos: grizzlydeer http://www.p-cos.net/lisp/guide.html 2015-07-28T04:35:31Z aeth: grizzlydeer: Technically speaking, all languages are equivalent. Even if something were only easily possible in a Lisp-like language, you could write a Lisp-like language in the langauge you have to use. 2015-07-28T04:35:44Z White_Flame: grizzlydeer: however, there's bounds to that; I don't think you can change the actual assembly-language function ABI for instance 2015-07-28T04:35:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-28T04:36:01Z aeth: Here's a bunch of implementations of s-expressions in different languages: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/S-Expressions 2015-07-28T04:37:21Z grizzlydeer: So, computer languages are like Skyrim races -- you can start with a mage to be good at magic at base, but you can always change your Mage to be equally as capable of figher as a Nord. 2015-07-28T04:37:41Z keen__________32 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:38:33Z White_Flame: as long as you ignore time & space 2015-07-28T04:38:50Z White_Flame: the actual computational result is always attainable 2015-07-28T04:39:40Z White_Flame: because it always comes down to the fundamentals of read/modify/write values, make decisions on values, interface with I/O 2015-07-28T04:40:09Z aeth: unless you write a different kind of computer 2015-07-28T04:40:25Z theos: looks like gavino 2015-07-28T04:40:27Z White_Flame: you can always emulate diffrent kinds of computers 2015-07-28T04:40:45Z White_Flame: ie, analog circuit emulations, etc 2015-07-28T04:40:55Z White_Flame: s/ie/eg/, since we're being pedantic 2015-07-28T04:41:28Z aeth: hah, nice 2015-07-28T04:41:33Z grizzlydeer: Lisp is amazing. I'm becoming a fanboy, I must admit. It's mathematical like Haskell, syntactically simple like Python (I guess you can say it has a syntax...), and extremely versatile like C. 2015-07-28T04:41:48Z White_Flame: as long as it's deterministic, and can likely gain similar functional qualities even if the target isn't deterministic 2015-07-28T04:42:24Z aeth: grizzlydeer: It's mathematical, but it's a different kind of mathematical than Haskell. If you want something exactly like Haskell, you'd have to write your own Lisp-like language or use a niche Lisp-like language. 2015-07-28T04:42:35Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T04:42:54Z aeth: iirc, Haskell is entirely functional. Scheme's mostly functional. And Common Lisp is completely multi-paradigm, it doesn't really encourage or force functional programming (although it's easier to do than in e.g. C++) 2015-07-28T04:42:59Z Zhivago: Lisp is not particularly mathematical, but then, neither is haskell. 2015-07-28T04:43:19Z Zhivago: Scheme and CL have procedures rather than functions, but support a functional style. 2015-07-28T04:43:36Z Zhivago: Haskell is a lazy functional language, lisps are mostly eager procedural languages. 2015-07-28T04:43:52Z aeth: grizzlydeer: Python doesn't have simple syntax. It has syntax that's designed to be very readable. It's actually rather complicated iirc. 2015-07-28T04:44:00Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-28T04:44:10Z grizzlydeer: Zhivago: In comparison to what I've seen in C, I personally think it is; I'm probably wrong though, but both Haskell and Lisp seem more mathematical than C, C++ and Java. 2015-07-28T04:44:46Z White_Flame: I think the term is probably "regular", not "mathematical" 2015-07-28T04:44:53Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T04:44:55Z aeth: Zhivago: Scheme is adding more lazy features in r7rs. Section 4.2.5, delayed evaluation. 2015-07-28T04:44:56Z White_Flame: ie, no distinction between functions & statements 2015-07-28T04:45:02Z aeth: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/raw-attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs.pdf 2015-07-28T04:45:04Z aeth: this is the PDF 2015-07-28T04:45:40Z Zhivago: aeth: Those are just promises. 2015-07-28T04:45:51Z akkad: White_Flame: so this binary dissasembler, you do this for fun? or work? 2015-07-28T04:45:55Z White_Flame: though the ability to naturally have big integers, rationals, and complex numbers are certainly more mathematically inclined than C's included numeric types 2015-07-28T04:45:59Z White_Flame: akkad: fun 2015-07-28T04:46:21Z White_Flame: with commercial potential if it manifests the capability I want 2015-07-28T04:46:23Z Zhivago: They give you some option for parallel execution, but don't change the language semantics to be lazy. 2015-07-28T04:46:50Z White_Flame: akkad: it also exercised the tech from my company 2015-07-28T04:46:54Z White_Flame: exercises 2015-07-28T04:47:13Z aeth: White_Flame: If you're interested in math on computers, there is an old Computer Algebra System in Common Lisp. It's called Maxima. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxima_%28software%29 2015-07-28T04:47:41Z aeth: And sourceforge seems to finally be up again so I can link directly to the site. http://maxima.sourceforge.net/ 2015-07-28T04:47:43Z White_Flame: aeth: yes, I know plenty about maxima, I'm just responding to grizzlydeer's "mathematical" statements 2015-07-28T04:48:04Z aeth: ah 2015-07-28T04:48:22Z aeth: oops, I think I probably should've addressed grizzlydeer 2015-07-28T04:48:24Z aeth: grizzlydeer: ^ 2015-07-28T04:49:24Z aeth: I'm not sure if its source code would be enlightening or horrifyingly out of date because it was started in 1982, so it probably does some things in a very archaic style unless it's been entirely updated. 2015-07-28T04:50:26Z aeth: Lisp in the 1958-1984 range can be considerably different than contemporary Common Lisp. 2015-07-28T04:51:06Z White_Flame: and some may argue that Common Lisp effectively halted feature development of mainline Lisp languages ;) 2015-07-28T04:51:17Z aeth: uh, no, there's... uh... Arc? 2015-07-28T04:51:18Z aeth: :-p 2015-07-28T04:51:37Z White_Flame: I know Chuck Moore has the same negative opinion of the ANS Forth spec on that language 2015-07-28T04:52:10Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T04:52:27Z White_Flame: instead of being exploratory, the focus becomes on conforming to a spec, and seeing what you can build around that infrastructure 2015-07-28T04:53:15Z aeth: Iirc, there's a new Lisp designed to be more functional-style. This? http://shenlanguage.org/ 2015-07-28T04:53:44Z aeth: But I think talking about post-CL non-Lisp Lisps is more the domain of ##lisp and/or #lispcafe, with a little bit of an exception of Scheme when used in a few places like SICP. 2015-07-28T04:54:09Z White_Flame: yep 2015-07-28T04:54:13Z akkad: White_Flame: very nice. 2015-07-28T04:54:34Z akkad: does it handle more than just x86/x_64? 2015-07-28T04:54:50Z White_Flame: akkad: it currently handles 6502 and CBM BASIC 2.0 2015-07-28T04:55:17Z White_Flame: but the core is language agnostic (it doesn't even assume it's dealing with assembly language) 2015-07-28T04:56:15Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T04:56:27Z bitwiggler: white_flame is this opensource? 2015-07-28T04:56:54Z White_Flame: bitwiggler: no, but I have a free public, semi-working version: http://www.white-flame.com/wfdis/ 2015-07-28T04:57:03Z White_Flame: which doesn't use the Lisp backend 2015-07-28T04:57:33Z bitwiggler: does the lisp backend actually do the disassembly? or is it just used for looking for compiler patterns? 2015-07-28T04:57:35Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:59:13Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-07-28T04:59:20Z aeth: I'm in (list #lisp #lispgames #lispweb #scheme #lispcafe ##lisp) and I think there's also (list #clnoobs #clojure #emacs) and probably more for tiny Lisp-like languages. And of course the channels for the individual implementations (mostly CLs and Schemes) like #sbcl and #racket 2015-07-28T04:59:32Z grizzlydeer: So, CLisp = Common Lisp = Lisp != Lisp as a family 2015-07-28T04:59:38Z aeth: People here complain when you go too far off topic so it's useful to know what other channels you can go to for Lisp-like talk 2015-07-28T04:59:48Z aeth: clisp is a Common Lisp which is a Lisp 2015-07-28T04:59:56Z aeth: just like racket is a Scheme which is a Lisp 2015-07-28T05:00:25Z theos: CLisp is not a language. Common Lisp is CL 2015-07-28T05:00:35Z aeth: right, clisp is an implementation 2015-07-28T05:00:37Z akkad: White_Flame: ahh all js 2015-07-28T05:01:56Z aeth: You have Lisp, the family of languages/dialects that all have that funny s-expression syntax (except Dylan), then you have the various languages and/or dialects (like with natural langs, it's also hard to draw the line between a dialect and a language in programming languages), then you have implementations. 2015-07-28T05:02:30Z aeth: It gets really confusing when you have things like ParenScript, which are partial implementations (ParenScript partially implements CL) 2015-07-28T05:02:45Z grizzlydeer: What is CLisp then? A REPL? 2015-07-28T05:03:26Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-28T05:03:30Z aeth: clisp is an implementation, like Ruby or JRuby, Python or Pypy, etc. Or the several JavaScript implementations (Chrome's v8, and whatever Firefox calls their's, etc.) 2015-07-28T05:04:17Z grizzlydeer: Ah, okay. A variant of the same langauge. 2015-07-28T05:04:38Z aeth: Implementations might not be fully conforming, or they might have various extensions. Compatability libraries try to work around these issues, e.g. bordeaux-threads. 2015-07-28T05:05:38Z Skrylar: aerique: spidermonkey 2015-07-28T05:05:43Z aeth: Some languages have one very dominant implementation which kind of forces the others to be bug-for-bug compatible so they can run popular libraries. Common Lisp doesn't have one, although sbcl is extremely popular on Linux these days. 2015-07-28T05:06:15Z grizzlydeer: C doesn't have any implementations, does it? 2015-07-28T05:06:21Z Skrylar: gcc? 2015-07-28T05:06:22Z aeth: I think the very popular one on Mac OS X is ccl? 2015-07-28T05:06:26Z beach: *sigh* 2015-07-28T05:06:29Z Zhivago: Um, perhaps you need to look up what 'implementation' means. 2015-07-28T05:06:33Z aeth: grizzlydeer: gcc, clang (llvm), and the Microsoft ones 2015-07-28T05:06:46Z Skrylar: aeth: fortunately it wouldn't matter, since defmacro could pave over that problem anyway ^^ 2015-07-28T05:06:49Z grizzlydeer: Zhivago: Yes, I probably should. 2015-07-28T05:06:52Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-28T05:06:53Z grizzlydeer: beach: Sorry. 2015-07-28T05:07:24Z Skrylar: though to be fair i wouldn't say languages like ruby really have a spec 2015-07-28T05:07:36Z Zhivago: They have a reference implementation. 2015-07-28T05:07:47Z aeth: Skrylar: I said something very similar a few weeks ago, only to find out that Ruby does in fact have a spec. 2015-07-28T05:07:52Z Skrylar: matz sat down and wrote it, his version's code IS the spec. CL was extracted from many such implementations and formalized 2015-07-28T05:07:59Z aeth: Skrylar: But at the same time, there is a main implementation that the others try to conform with. 2015-07-28T05:08:12Z Skrylar: so its not 100% fair to compare CL to Ruby, IMO 2015-07-28T05:08:38Z aeth: right. Ruby, Python, Perl, PHP, etc., all have several and/or many implementations, but there's one dominant one each afaik. 2015-07-28T05:08:44Z Skrylar: yup 2015-07-28T05:09:01Z Skrylar: like there is lua and luajit, but the 'spec' of lua is pucrio's implementation 2015-07-28T05:09:02Z aeth: C and C++ compilers are more divided, mainly because each platform came with their own C compiler. 2015-07-28T05:09:20Z grizzlydeer: implementations are just REPLs and interpreters? 2015-07-28T05:09:26Z Skrylar: grizzlydeer: no 2015-07-28T05:09:30Z Zhivago: aeth: Where is the ruby spec? 2015-07-28T05:09:39Z Skrylar: grizzlydeer: a spec is basically a document that says how something should work in <human language> 2015-07-28T05:09:48Z aeth: Zhivago: I'm not sure, someone probably has the link because this is the channel I found out about it in. 2015-07-28T05:09:50Z Skrylar: grizzlydeer: an implementation is the actual program which implements that 2015-07-28T05:10:23Z grizzlydeer: So, compilers? 2015-07-28T05:10:29Z aeth: grizzlydeer: Implementations are REPLs, interpreters, compilers, etc., of the spec, as well as extensions 2015-07-28T05:10:30Z Skrylar: a compiler can have an implementation 2015-07-28T05:10:45Z Zhivago: A compiler is an implementation choice. 2015-07-28T05:10:51Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-28T05:10:53Z aeth: iirc, Common Lisp is an interpreter and compiler, most are one or the other 2015-07-28T05:10:55Z Zhivago: A specification can have an implementation. 2015-07-28T05:11:05Z Skrylar: aeth: right 2015-07-28T05:11:16Z Zhivago: An implementation is a machine that conforms to the specification. 2015-07-28T05:11:16Z Skrylar: the hyperspec actually permits both, people just usually don't do both 2015-07-28T05:11:51Z Skrylar: its fully allowable for a lisp machine to have say, a symbolic debugger as an interpreter and a machine code compiler in the same system, and i think there are declaims to choose which should be used, its just that people tend to either write an interpreter or a compiler 2015-07-28T05:12:30Z Zhivago: All CL implementations include a compiler. 2015-07-28T05:12:53Z Zhivago: See the minimal compilation chapter. 2015-07-28T05:13:14Z aeth: Python's reference implementation is interpreted, C's compiled. Some languages compile to bytecode (Java, C#), some compile to other languages (C, JavaScript, etc.) and languages can get very confusing. I'm not sure which way Just In Time compiling counts, I think Java, JavaScript, PyPy, etc., all do this. 2015-07-28T05:13:28Z Skrylar: [this is the part where i plug a program i'm not involved in: http://zealdocs.org/] because you can install the hyperspec in to that, and get offline search 2015-07-28T05:14:03Z Zhivago: C does not have a reference implementation. 2015-07-28T05:14:11Z aeth: right 2015-07-28T05:14:14Z aeth: C's always compiled 2015-07-28T05:14:18Z aeth: sorry for the ambiguity 2015-07-28T05:14:18Z Zhivago: Wrong. 2015-07-28T05:14:22Z Zhivago: There are C interpreters. 2015-07-28T05:14:26Z Skrylar: quake-c :p 2015-07-28T05:14:37Z aeth: Zhivago: C always thinks that it's compiled, even when you can lie to it :-p 2015-07-28T05:14:54Z beach: aeth: There is nothing in the specification of the C language that stipulates how it is supposed to be implemented. 2015-07-28T05:15:06Z aeth: ok then I'm wrong. 2015-07-28T05:15:06Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:15:25Z Zhivago: C is specified in terms of translation units, which may be interpreted or compiled. 2015-07-28T05:15:27Z aeth: Major C implementations are all compilers, though, and C is designed to be easy to write compilers to (although modern C compilers are complicated because of optimizing iirc) 2015-07-28T05:15:29Z Skrylar: re-checked the hyperspec on compiling 2015-07-28T05:15:33Z beach: aeth: Did you even read the C specification? 2015-07-28T05:15:40Z aeth: beach: is it online? 2015-07-28T05:15:40Z Skrylar: the way the hyperspec defines a compiler isn't how people naively think about them 2015-07-28T05:15:43Z aeth: I'll read it I guess 2015-07-28T05:15:52Z Zhivago: What it comes down to is very simple. Compilation and interpretation are implementation strategies. 2015-07-28T05:15:54Z beach: aeth: As most standards, it is a commercial product. 2015-07-28T05:16:13Z Zhivago: Very few languages specify compilation (CL does in-so-far as it requires minimal compilation semantics to be supported). 2015-07-28T05:16:15Z Skrylar: "The compiler is a utility that translates code into an implementation-dependent form that might be represented or executed efficiently. The term compiler refers to both of the functions compile and compile-file." 2015-07-28T05:16:40Z Zhivago: But that minimal compilation is with respect to compiling CL down to a base dialect of CL without macro extensions. 2015-07-28T05:18:08Z aeth: beach: is it in a library? 2015-07-28T05:18:21Z White_Flame: bitwiggler: akkad: sorry, was afk unexpectedly 2015-07-28T05:18:29Z aeth: most commercial products are readable in dead-tree form somewhere :-p 2015-07-28T05:18:41Z beach: aeth: I don't know. I assume good libraries would have it. 2015-07-28T05:18:41Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T05:18:45Z White_Flame: the Lisp does the actual disassembly. the JS is the UI that I'm experimenting with, and threw in a simple disassembler & emulator for testing purposes 2015-07-28T05:19:48Z beach: aeth: You are in luck. The draft document is available: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1570.pdf 2015-07-28T05:19:48Z Zhivago: aeth: You can find drafts of the C standard freely available on the internet. 2015-07-28T05:20:08Z Zhivago: Pick a draft including technical corrigenda and you'll have the full specification plus corrections. 2015-07-28T05:21:19Z aeth: r7rs is 88 pages. C is apparently 701. wow, what a difference. 2015-07-28T05:21:24Z aeth: How many pages is CL's spec? 2015-07-28T05:21:31Z beach: 1000 or so. 2015-07-28T05:22:06Z Skrylar: to be fair the CL spec defines a lot 2015-07-28T05:22:15Z aeth: I wonder how many C++'s is. CL's object oriented, so contrasting it with C is probably not fair 2015-07-28T05:22:26Z Skrylar: 300 pages i thought 2015-07-28T05:22:32Z White_Flame: and the CL defines a lot of very precise vocabulary 2015-07-28T05:22:41Z Skrylar: i may be wrong on this but C++'s spec has a lot of definitions on the core language alone 2015-07-28T05:22:51Z Skrylar: the CL spec includes a standard library 2015-07-28T05:23:02Z Skrylar: as does Smalltalk's 2015-07-28T05:23:03Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T05:23:36Z Zhivago: The C++ and C specs both include standard library specifications. 2015-07-28T05:23:45Z Skrylar: it includes the stl? 2015-07-28T05:23:58Z Skrylar: i wonder what the rest of the CL is then 2015-07-28T05:24:12Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-28T05:24:25Z Skrylar: I've found it highly readable 2015-07-28T05:24:37Z Zhivago: The STL is not part of the C++ standard library. 2015-07-28T05:25:05Z Skrylar: that would do it then 2015-07-28T05:26:23Z Zhivago: However you may be confused as to what the STL is. 2015-07-28T05:26:26Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:28:30Z cosmicexplorer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T05:30:35Z beach: aeth: 1360 pages: ftp://linux4u.jinr.ru/pub/misc/symbolic/lisp/dpANS3/book.pdf 2015-07-28T05:31:22Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:32:26Z akkad: big book 2015-07-28T05:32:31Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:33:37Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T05:35:10Z White_Flame: there are 978 symbols in CLHS's Symbol Index. Probably averages a bit under 1 per page, given that some pages address multiple symbols, while others have a larger section 2015-07-28T05:36:01Z Zhivago: A suitable entry for a book of useless facts. 2015-07-28T05:36:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T05:36:51Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T05:36:51Z White_Flame is estimating the difference between the fundamental language part of the spec, and the standard symbols 2015-07-28T05:37:17Z Zhivago: I can see that you will soon have a second entry. :) 2015-07-28T05:37:32Z White_Flame: I view it appropriate to the discussion 2015-07-28T05:39:11Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:40:14Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:41:49Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:42:10Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:43:18Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:45:15Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:45:27Z eazar_fresh_air quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-28T05:45:28Z aeth: Zhivago: Actually a book of useless facts would actually be quite useful if digitized 2015-07-28T05:45:59Z White_Flame: one could also debate the qualifications of "useless" vs "useful" 2015-07-28T05:46:09Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T05:46:13Z aeth: In book form, it's useless facts. In digital form, it's a knowledge base. 2015-07-28T05:46:23Z White_Flame is quite nihilistic 2015-07-28T05:47:14Z jackdaniel: hi 2015-07-28T05:47:24Z aeth: I can understand why people are nihilistic in a world where Microsoft and Apple run the two major OSes, and the rest are Unixes/Unix-clones (and yes OS X is also a Unix). 2015-07-28T05:48:07Z White_Flame: yes, we did read that paper linked previously ;) 2015-07-28T05:48:26Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T05:48:58Z White_Flame: http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf 2015-07-28T05:51:10Z jackdaniel: o, this sounds interesting 2015-07-28T05:51:42Z aeth: White_Flame: I suspect another window of opportunity will open up when VR finally arrives. A few years ago I probably would have said augmented reality, but no one likes Google Glass. 2015-07-28T05:52:28Z aeth: I guess technically mobile was an opportunity, and did introduce a little bit of change in the popular OSes, but the mobile carriers as gatekeepers were too restrictive and so stopped a lot of cool ideas before they could start. 2015-07-28T05:52:54Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T05:52:55Z aeth: There will be no gatekeeper for VR, given enough time. 2015-07-28T05:53:27Z aeth: VR will change how people will want to interact with computers way more than mobile, anyway. Mobile's still 2D. 2015-07-28T05:53:54Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by lack of gatekeeper? if you want to toy with something, you need to have access to both hardware and sdk - that's why google didn't catch (neither mobile), both sdk were closed or crippled software gardens 2015-07-28T05:54:09Z jackdaniel: s/google/google glass/ 2015-07-28T05:54:25Z jackdaniel: and yes, android sdk i crippled ^_^ 2015-07-28T05:54:49Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:56:08Z grizzlydeer quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-28T05:56:41Z White_Flame: aeth: Unity3d and Unreal Engine, and however the Oculus libaries interact, will likely be the definitive way to access HMDs 2015-07-28T05:56:44Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:56:55Z aeth: jackdaniel: The gatekeeper for mobile were massive oligopolies in places like the US. You couldn't really start your own mobile network if you wanted to. 2015-07-28T05:57:34Z beach wonders when, if ever, #lisp will again be about Common Lisp. 2015-07-28T05:57:34Z aeth: jackdaniel: VR's a much, much, much lower barrier to entry, especially given time. And it's all hardware as barrier, not networks too. 2015-07-28T05:58:02Z jackdaniel: look at google glass, closed garden imo 2015-07-28T05:58:03Z aeth: beach: The first thing that might seem off topic was were contrasting Lisp with other specs. 2015-07-28T05:58:17Z jackdaniel: beach: these are potential markets for common lisp ;-) 2015-07-28T05:58:20Z aeth: beach: Now we're talking about trying to get Lisp on VR 2015-07-28T05:58:35Z jackdaniel: but seriously, it is offtopic ^_^ sorry 2015-07-28T05:58:36Z aeth: beach: I thought it was implicit, given the channel, that the reason I'm bringing up VR is because Lisp needs to come to it 2015-07-28T05:58:41Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-28T05:58:49Z aeth: maybe this is more #lispgames even though VR is useful for more than games 2015-07-28T05:59:22Z H4ns: "lisp needs to come with VR" is #lispcafe at best 2015-07-28T05:59:31Z H4ns: :D 2015-07-28T06:01:48Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T06:03:15Z z0d: Lisp is VR 2015-07-28T06:03:48Z jackdaniel: VRLisp, brand new Common-Lisp subset specialized on VR and Lisp \o/ :D 2015-07-28T06:03:51Z White_Flame: yes, Lisp is Vindicated Routinely. 2015-07-28T06:04:08Z aeth: H4ns: Maybe 3 years ago it was #lispcafe material but now VR is very close to happening. 2015-07-28T06:04:12Z Zhivago: I suspect that oculus will be a passing fad. 2015-07-28T06:04:36Z jackdaniel: ↑ 2015-07-28T06:04:50Z aeth: Zhivago: as I said in #lispcafe it's kind of dead now that Facebook bought it because it's such a mismatch (Facebook being for very very casual games and Oculus not) 2015-07-28T06:04:51Z Zhivago: We may expect something like google glasses with decent resolution in the next few years. 2015-07-28T06:05:00Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:05:08Z White_Flame: Infiniteye was a better concept anyway 2015-07-28T06:05:13Z aeth: Zhivago: but VR is coming and I hope there will be a Lispy way to deploy to it 2015-07-28T06:05:21Z Zhivago: Once that occurs, there will be nothing special about it, and it will just be a heads up telephony interface. 2015-07-28T06:05:22Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:05:37Z Zhivago: Sure, via javascript. :) 2015-07-28T06:05:42Z aeth: As soon as the resolution gets good enough, I can ditch my two huge HD monitors for a VR device, and I will. 2015-07-28T06:05:58Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-28T06:06:14Z aeth: I never expected the kind of resolution changes that mobile had in the past 15 years to happen so quickly. 2015-07-28T06:06:16Z jackdaniel: http://sdtimes.com/oculus-cto-john-carmack-is-developing-scheme-scripting-language-for-vr/ 2015-07-28T06:06:24Z Zhivago: That won't be a VR device, most likely. 2015-07-28T06:06:29Z Zhivago: Just a HMD. 2015-07-28T06:06:46Z aeth: jackdaniel: That's wht I don't like about Scheme. It too easily is treated as a "scripting language". 2015-07-28T06:07:00Z Zhivago: And those HMDs won't be targeting VR, because VR is pretty useless. 2015-07-28T06:07:06Z aeth: At least Common Lisp is constantly begging to be Lisp-all-the-way-down because of it's LispM heritage (too bad no one has the capital for that) 2015-07-28T06:07:32Z Zhivago: Lisp-all-the-way-down is what has lead lisp to being marginalized. 2015-07-28T06:07:45Z jackdaniel: (incf *) 2015-07-28T06:07:45Z Zhivago: It's a seductive trap of low utility. 2015-07-28T06:08:13Z aeth: Zhivago: VR isn't useless. VR with sufficient resolution replaces a multi-monitor setup. The problem is the effective resolution right now is very, very low because it has to be split between both eyes iirc. 2015-07-28T06:08:25Z Zhivago: You don't need VR to replace a monitor. 2015-07-28T06:08:32Z Zhivago: You just need a HMD. 2015-07-28T06:08:37Z aeth: HMD? 2015-07-28T06:08:40Z Zhivago: And a HMD need have no VR capability. 2015-07-28T06:08:44Z Zhivago: Head mounted display. 2015-07-28T06:09:22Z aeth: Yes, a HMD doesn't have to be VR, but it will be. Gamers drive high end desktop hardware in the PC space. 2015-07-28T06:09:33Z aeth: Just because you're not using it for VR doesn't make it not a VR device. 2015-07-28T06:09:34Z Zhivago: No, it won't, except in niches. 2015-07-28T06:09:48Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:09:54Z aeth: Idk, no one expected the Wii to take off until it did. 2015-07-28T06:10:00Z Zhivago: And that's because VR requires a lot of useless junk that makes HMDs less useful. 2015-07-28T06:10:04Z aeth: People wnat new ways of playing games. 2015-07-28T06:10:08Z aeth: *want 2015-07-28T06:10:16Z Zhivago: That's a niche. 2015-07-28T06:10:31Z Zhivago: Real people are going to be primarily concerned with working in the real world. 2015-07-28T06:10:40Z H4ns: VR has been imminent for 25 years now. 2015-07-28T06:10:48Z Zhivago: Which means just a HMD, possibly with some augmented reality stuff via a smart camera. 2015-07-28T06:11:00Z aeth: H4ns: it's all about having the right display. The 1990's VirtualBoy was awful. 2015-07-28T06:11:02Z Zhivago: That's because VR is pretty much useless. 2015-07-28T06:11:07Z aeth: H4ns: we're probably 10 years away 2015-07-28T06:11:15Z MasterPiece quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T06:11:19Z aeth: at least, in terms of VR we'd want to use for more than games 2015-07-28T06:11:26Z H4ns: aeth: right. until then, take this discussion to #lispcafe 2015-07-28T06:11:47Z jackdaniel: I think CL is a great language! ;] 2015-07-28T06:11:49Z aeth: I did. What wound up happening is two conversations about the same thing, in both channels. :-( 2015-07-28T06:12:27Z Zhivago: jack: I congratulate your thinkery. 2015-07-28T06:12:43Z H4ns: Zhivago: you are bored. 2015-07-28T06:12:45Z aeth: Zhivago: More on topic, I don't think Lisp-all-the-way-down is a trap. You just need the right software, and that software will probably develop outside of a LispM first. 2015-07-28T06:12:48Z jackdaniel: Zhivago: thanks 2015-07-28T06:13:09Z Zhivago: aeth: Lisp-all-the-way-down minimizes the resources you are able to bring to bear on the problem. 2015-07-28T06:13:22Z lisp-noob joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:13:29Z Zhivago: aeth: It's a completely retarded approach that leads to wasting time on reinventing wheels that don't matter. 2015-07-28T06:13:36Z aeth: Why? Lisp-all-the-way-down doesn't mean that the only language is Lisp, it just makes the primary language Lisp instead of C. 2015-07-28T06:13:42Z Zhivago: Like implementing 650 different ethernet card drivers. 2015-07-28T06:14:03Z Zhivago: So, what does 'all-the-way-down' mean? 2015-07-28T06:14:05Z aeth: oh, no, that would be a waste of time, just write for one machine 2015-07-28T06:14:16Z aeth: If other people like it they can port it. 2015-07-28T06:14:18Z White_Flame: and that's not a waste of time ... how? 2015-07-28T06:14:28Z Zhivago: Again, minimizing the resources you can bring to bear upon problems. 2015-07-28T06:15:11Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:15:25Z aeth: White_Flame: It's not a waste of time because it would be awesome. You can even go below the LispOS level fairly cheaply with FPGAs, although you cannot yet rewrite the universe to use Lisp so I guess you can't go all the way down. 2015-07-28T06:15:34Z White_Flame: it would be awesome for 1 perons 2015-07-28T06:15:36Z White_Flame: person 2015-07-28T06:15:37Z H4ns: "waste of time" is not an argument unless it is your own time that is wasted. participation in this discussion seems to be that. 2015-07-28T06:15:38Z Zhivago: Why would it be awesome? 2015-07-28T06:15:45Z White_Flame: namely, the person with that particular machine 2015-07-28T06:16:00Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:16:13Z Zhivago: Try to think of some concrete benefits that you would expect to realize from that approach. 2015-07-28T06:16:22Z aeth: Zhivago: It would be awesome because it would be an understandable computer 2015-07-28T06:16:45Z Zhivago: Why do you expect that implementing it in lisp would magically make it understandable? 2015-07-28T06:17:04Z jack__ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:17:05Z aeth: Fewer lines of code and a better design? 2015-07-28T06:17:07Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:17:35Z H4ns: Zhivago: each abstraction layer makes a system less easy to reason about. thus, reducing the number of abstraction layers helps creating understandable systems. 2015-07-28T06:17:56Z aeth: right, what H4ns said sounds much smarter than "fewer lines of code" 2015-07-28T06:18:01Z aeth: so I have to agree with H4ns 2015-07-28T06:18:03Z Zhivago: Perhaps, but why do you expect software written in lisp to have less abstraction? 2015-07-28T06:18:45Z aeth: Zhivago: Think about the typical C system. You have to build scripting languages, configuration files, things like XML, JSON, etc., on top of it. 2015-07-28T06:18:47Z H4ns: Zhivago: i don't. but this is #lisp, after all. and i like lisp. you may be in favor of an all-haskell or all-c or all-javascript machine, or you may just be cranky and bored. i can't tell. 2015-07-28T06:18:53Z Zhivago: The obverse point is that each layer of abstraction makes things at that layer easier to understand. Which is why maintainable software tends to want a number of levels of abstraction. 2015-07-28T06:19:05Z aeth: Zhivago: You have shell scripting and a shell language to interact with rather than a direct REPL. etc. C can really complicate things 2015-07-28T06:19:17Z Zhivago: My argument would apply equally against all-haskell or all-c or all-javascript. 2015-07-28T06:19:21Z Firedancer: What you guys think about Clasp? 2015-07-28T06:19:36Z Zhivago: Firedancer: It should help significantly with C++ integration. 2015-07-28T06:19:45Z kristof: I thought we were all friends? 2015-07-28T06:19:58Z H4ns: kristof: lol 2015-07-28T06:20:14Z jack-zhang quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:20:20Z theos: kristof wait till someone calls you bro 2015-07-28T06:20:23Z aeth: kristof: this is the internet, where every idea has to be defended more vigorously than anywhere else in the world 2015-07-28T06:21:12Z Zhivago: Expecting that rebuilding the universe under a single language will (a) succeed and (b) improve things significantly, ignores fundamental economic costs. 2015-07-28T06:21:35Z aeth: Zhivago: At the very least, Lisp reduces the *syntactical* complexity because even if you build up *semantical* abstractions they will probably be expressed in s expressions. 2015-07-28T06:21:55Z Zhivago: Which is why the universe is dominated by messy and heterogeneous systems. 2015-07-28T06:22:05Z aeth: so e.g. configuration files directly in s-exp form instead of XML/etc., perhaps a shell language in Lisp-like form, etc. 2015-07-28T06:22:08Z White_Flame: Zhivago: there's no accounting for the economics of preference 2015-07-28T06:22:26Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:22:26Z aeth: Syntactical simplicity counts for something, even if it has the exact same amount of abstraction-upon-abstraction everywhere else. 2015-07-28T06:22:32Z Zhivago: White: Sure there are -- it mostly boils down to signaling and counter-signaling displays. 2015-07-28T06:23:18Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:23:58Z aeth: Zhivago: I suspect the first thing that would happen with a popular LispOS would be people porting languages they like to it. So, no, it's impossible to have one language for literally everything. 2015-07-28T06:24:11Z aeth: Although I do hope that if other languages are used it would be languages like Scheme. 2015-07-28T06:24:13Z Zhivago: In which case, why did you bother? :) 2015-07-28T06:24:46Z aeth: Every system has some encouraged languages. e.g. on Microsoft systems, they encourage C#, on Apple systems Objective C, etc. 2015-07-28T06:24:54Z Zhivago: And in which case, it should be reasonably obvious that it doesn't matter what the subvening layers are implemented in. 2015-07-28T06:25:02Z aeth: So even though you will never be able to get rid of C and C++, you can at least create one or more viable alternative languages if you control the ecosystem. 2015-07-28T06:25:13Z aeth: and yes I suspect C will be ported fairly quickly 2015-07-28T06:25:46Z aeth: Zhivago: well it doesn't matter in theory if performance is not taken to account, it matters in practice. 2015-07-28T06:26:02Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:26:02Z Zhivago: It doesn't matter even if performance is taken into account. 2015-07-28T06:26:20Z aeth: You'll probably never see a popular OS in PHP or Python or Perl even if those languages have fans, unless those languages have significant performance increases 2015-07-28T06:26:42Z Zhivago: All that matters is the performance, and you're not going to get the performance benefits you expect from lisp-all-the-way-down. 2015-07-28T06:26:45Z H4ns: aeth: are you now promising "performance increses"? 2015-07-28T06:27:07Z aeth: Yes.* 2015-07-28T06:27:10Z H4ns: hah 2015-07-28T06:27:12Z Zhivago: And you're not going to get them, because you lack the resources required to get them, which will prevent you from getting the resources required to get them. 2015-07-28T06:27:13Z aeth: *For Common Lisp code that does not use CFFI. 2015-07-28T06:27:18Z H4ns: Zhivago: please go on! 2015-07-28T06:27:32Z aeth: I suppose all claims like that must have footnotes though :-p 2015-07-28T06:27:57Z jackdaniel doesn't understand, what benefit would be of using Common-Lisp on top of LispOS in LispMachine over using Common-Lisp on top of Linux in PC 2015-07-28T06:28:08Z Zhivago: jackdaniel: Bragging rights. 2015-07-28T06:28:22Z jackdaniel lurks into translator, what that means :D 2015-07-28T06:28:42Z aeth: jackdaniel: Common Lisp on top of LispOS on top of a Low Level Lisp-Like Language on top of an FPGA. A real LispMachine is probably too expensive and slow for modern use. 2015-07-28T06:28:47Z jackdaniel: oh, ok 2015-07-28T06:29:05Z Zhivago: And your FPGA performance will suck compared to that of a mainstream machine. 2015-07-28T06:29:32Z aeth: But it will be better than an historic LispM, hopefully. 2015-07-28T06:29:34Z Zhivago: Simply because you haven't put a billion dollars into it. 2015-07-28T06:29:37Z jackdaniel: aeth: ok, on top of low level lisp-like language on top of an fpga. what is benefit (except bragging rights) 2015-07-28T06:30:07Z aeth: jackdaniel: it would probably be enlightening both to program and to study the result 2015-07-28T06:30:10Z H4ns: aeth: do you have a feeling for the performance of a historic lispm? hint: they were very very very slow. 2015-07-28T06:30:27Z Zhivago: Slower than an rpi. 2015-07-28T06:30:42Z H4ns: aeth: so sure, you might be able to build something that was only very very slow, but that'd be about it and nobody would want to actually use it. 2015-07-28T06:30:44Z aeth: jackdaniel: and because the software would be in Common Lisp, no one has to actually run the software on the FPGA 2015-07-28T06:30:50Z aeth: Zhivago: I am talking to you right now on an rpi. 2015-07-28T06:31:03Z aeth: If rpi-level performance is one day possible, that would be awesome. 2015-07-28T06:31:14Z Zhivago: aeth: Well, I hope it is highly educational. :) 2015-07-28T06:31:15Z jackdaniel: aeth: probably isn't enough motivation to put hyper-effort into such a thing, and not everyone would want to examine OS internals - whole point of language abstraction is to cut off them and be portable 2015-07-28T06:31:25Z jackdaniel: I don't care if assembler is sexps or something else, it's assembler 2015-07-28T06:31:29Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:31:46Z aeth: jackdaniel: well, yes, the death of this project (before I even get the FPGA, hah) is that any useful software on that project will run faster on a Linux x86_64 machine 2015-07-28T06:32:09Z H4ns: jackdaniel: i do care and i would want to have access to all levels with the same set of tools. i'm not convinced that i'm going to get it, though. 2015-07-28T06:32:42Z jackdaniel: I don't see valid motivation for further balkanization of OS interfaces 2015-07-28T06:33:09Z H4ns: jackdaniel: do you really think that posix is the end of os interface development? 2015-07-28T06:33:19Z niggafromganton joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:33:34Z jackdaniel: H4ns: no, if you propose something what transcendents posix, it might be written in lisp, np with me 2015-07-28T06:34:03Z jackdaniel: but duplicating posix (by means of functionality) with incompatible interface is waste of effort 2015-07-28T06:34:06Z H4ns: jackdaniel: i agree that we're going to be faced with that crap for decades, but i certainly hope that i get to see better mainstream computers myself. and by better i mean "no posix" 2015-07-28T06:34:47Z H4ns: jackdaniel: it is not a waste of effort. posix is one of the layers that need not be there because it sucks. it is the standardization of an operating system layer that sucked to begin with. 2015-07-28T06:34:51Z niggafromganton: Do Lispers have to understand binary? 2015-07-28T06:35:01Z niggafromganton: Because I can't understand binary to save my life! 2015-07-28T06:36:17Z jackdaniel: H4ns: so you say it's ok to come with new standard, which duplicates posix funcionality, because you don't like posix - ay? 2015-07-28T06:36:22Z aeth: I don't really see a problem with exotic OSes. e.g. TempleOS has gotten a lot of press because of its novelty factor. 2015-07-28T06:36:59Z aeth: And really, if it's a question of resources, if a LispOS can attract press, then it's basically free PR for the group that does it, which might actually pay off in a cost/benefit analysis. 2015-07-28T06:37:20Z H4ns: jackdaniel: certainly so. posix is not a good thing to begin with. it is tied to c and unix, and it has so many warts that creating something good on top of it is a very complex undertaking. 2015-07-28T06:37:36Z H4ns: jackdaniel: just think iolib 2015-07-28T06:38:07Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:38:32Z H4ns: jackdaniel: i find it rather amusing that some people seem to believe that posix is something of a natural law. 2015-07-28T06:38:41Z aeth: Iirc, Windows isn't posix 2015-07-28T06:39:00Z White_Flame: heirarchical file system, byte-based streams, confusion of bytes & characters, all very fundamental legacy cruft that need to be rethought 2015-07-28T06:39:02Z jackdaniel: I find posix pretty complete and universal - this comes with complication - see Common Lisp - not easy language at all 2015-07-28T06:39:14Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:39:29Z aeth: White_Flame: I actually think hierarchical file systems are probably the way to go. Too much software is organized based on that assumption, porting would be very painful. 2015-07-28T06:39:42Z H4ns: lol 2015-07-28T06:39:54Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: you gave valid arguments, which shows areas to improve, what H4ns said is "posix just feels bad" 2015-07-28T06:39:58Z White_Flame: aeth: forget porting, consider more ideal designs 2015-07-28T06:40:31Z H4ns: jackdaniel: fork(), exec(), pipe(), threads, signals. must i add? 2015-07-28T06:40:45Z aeth: White_Flame: interestingly, I think hierarchical file systems in part are popular because they are sort of ideal for organizing large modular(ish) software programs 2015-07-28T06:40:59Z jackdaniel: what's wrong with these calls? they all solve some practical problems 2015-07-28T06:40:59Z aeth: White_Flame: although I guess you could say that ideally source code doesn't even need to live in files 2015-07-28T06:41:14Z H4ns: aeth: they are not "ideal", they are just how things are done. 2015-07-28T06:41:19Z Akshay_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:41:28Z White_Flame: and the (original) fundamental basis of Unix is that processes pass around lines of text, which is horrible. Every program needs its own custom parser & printer, config files have arbitrary syntax, and regex text tools cannot handle complex structure 2015-07-28T06:42:13Z White_Flame: aeth: Source code as "array of ASCII bytes" is bad, no matter the storage 2015-07-28T06:42:21Z aeth: White_Flame: Unicode now. 2015-07-28T06:42:23Z aeth: (in most languages) 2015-07-28T06:43:12Z White_Flame: source code would ideally be stored and edited as structure, not as characters 2015-07-28T06:43:43Z White_Flame: consider a text format as just one clunky-to-process serialization mechanism 2015-07-28T06:43:52Z H4ns: jackdaniel: fork() creates a process by duplicating the process that runs it. while that is somewhat clever, it is by no means straighforward and, more importantly, it does not make sense in 99% of the cases. it is only good in conjunction with pipe(). 2015-07-28T06:43:53Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:43:54Z aeth: I was thinking of another way source code could work, which sort of blurs the line between library and program. Where there would essentially be one Internet-based database of all the functions, macros, etc. 2015-07-28T06:43:54Z niggafromganton: Do Lispers have to understand binary? 2015-07-28T06:43:56Z niggafromganton: Because I can't understand binary to save my life! 2015-07-28T06:44:10Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:44:32Z aeth: Basically think of an extreme distaste for code duplication. Only write something new to this Wikipedia of functions/macros/algorithms/etc. if it isn't already there. 2015-07-28T06:44:32Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:44:59Z Firedancer: So how would you mark better implementations there? 2015-07-28T06:45:10Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:45:31Z jackdaniel: H4ns: if you want threads, then use pthread, if you need duplication use fork. It is a proof, that interface is somehow complete, that it covers also 1% of esoteric use-cases 2015-07-28T06:45:46Z niggafromganton quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-28T06:45:49Z jackdaniel: pure antithesis of "worse is better" and very lispy in fact 2015-07-28T06:46:05Z aeth: Firedancer: Each implementation would be a function. If you write a much better but different way of doing things, it would be a different implementation. The API would be constant (e.g. add-one) but it would pick the best implementation, but if you knew the full name you would be able to directly call the worse one 2015-07-28T06:46:06Z H4ns: jackdaniel: it is alright. 2015-07-28T06:46:40Z aeth: Firedancer: since sometimes algorithms are better based on if it's small or large you could even have a simple test to choose which one to use in the main API and if you always know e.g. it's a large data set, you can directly call the larger one to save a little on performance 2015-07-28T06:47:00Z aeth: so e.g. sort would just pick the best sorting algorithm but foo-sort would be foo-sort 2015-07-28T06:47:52Z Firedancer: Though writing test to see which algorithm to use in each part of you program seems a little too much work 2015-07-28T06:48:03Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:48:29Z White_Flame: Firedancer: which is why things need to be more JIT, with dynamic optimization 2015-07-28T06:48:54Z aeth: Firedancer: well this is just as I was randomly thinking about it, there's probably a better way to implement it. 2015-07-28T06:49:19Z aeth: e.g. maybe never do the test and just expect the programmer to know which is the right one in the application. 2015-07-28T06:49:29Z aeth: If the database is large enough, it should still save work. 2015-07-28T06:49:46Z White_Flame: My philosophy is that it is bad for the programmer to have to hand-hold the machine through the process of the desired software, in order to get speed. Teach the machine how to run things fast, write very generic, naive code 2015-07-28T06:49:51Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:50:18Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:50:30Z White_Flame: but you can't ever go down that route if your Posix model always brings you into C 2015-07-28T06:50:55Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:51:14Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:51:53Z Akshay_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T06:53:09Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:54:00Z aeth: White_Flame: I think that the problem with that approach is that it's very, very, very hard to do. 2015-07-28T06:54:17Z aeth: It might be possible now vs. the failed attempts in the 1980s if it's crowdsourced on the Internet, though. 2015-07-28T06:54:26Z White_Flame: I don't think so 2015-07-28T06:54:37Z White_Flame: I mean, it's already been the view of the JVM for years 2015-07-28T06:54:49Z aeth: I think you're using a different definition of "very generic" than I am, then. 2015-07-28T06:55:22Z White_Flame: and while their input language is very cumbersome, their ability to inline virtual calls and make their runtime type & GC predictions have had huge yields 2015-07-28T06:55:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T06:55:43Z White_Flame: Javascript is getting a lot of that benefit now as well 2015-07-28T06:56:08Z White_Flame: that's a very dynamic language, with the compilers able to nail down specific concrete backing structs for dynamically created objects 2015-07-28T06:56:45Z H4ns: in the end, it is the amount of engineering that is put into something which matters most. it is not enough to be cool, you'll also need serious engineering chops and money to pay people to do all the things that move you from "cool" to "useful". 2015-07-28T06:56:58Z aeth: White_Flame: yes, but none of those languages are particularly high level compared to SQL or Prolog 2015-07-28T06:57:26Z White_Flame: SQL is very fast, though there is more human involvement in doing so than necessary in the ideal 2015-07-28T06:57:41Z White_Flame: Prolog gets imperative very quickly, once you deal with cuts and order of inferences 2015-07-28T06:57:53Z White_Flame: so it loses a lot of its high-levelness easily 2015-07-28T06:58:05Z playerfinite joined #lisp 2015-07-28T06:58:55Z aeth: H4ns: it's improbable for any one project to be large enough or profitable enough to hire enough people to optimize it, so I'm not sure why it should even be considered when talking about hypothetical projects. 2015-07-28T06:58:57Z playerfinite quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-07-28T06:59:45Z White_Flame: I think Clojure is an interesting example. It inherited its usefulness from the JVM, so even when being slow and immature it still gained traction 2015-07-28T07:02:12Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:04:14Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-07-28T07:04:35Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:04:52Z aeth: Btw, there probably is a practical use for a LispOS. Servers. 2015-07-28T07:05:05Z aeth: Unixes and Unix-like OSes are a nightmare of complexity. Look at your /etc folder. 2015-07-28T07:05:32Z p_l: aeth: that complexity won't go away with LispOS, IMO 2015-07-28T07:05:38Z White_Flame: Lisp isn't built around security, though. It explicitly doesn't hide anything 2015-07-28T07:06:02Z p_l: and majority of /etc is crazy recentish cruft 2015-07-28T07:06:23Z aeth: White_Flame: Nothing is built around security. Security comes from being widely used imo. 2015-07-28T07:06:30Z p_l: yes, there are things that could be done better, but they are unrelated to LispOS 2015-07-28T07:06:42Z White_Flame: aeth: and that's another failing of the industry and academia in general 2015-07-28T07:06:57Z aeth: p_l: yes they are unrelated to Lisp in particular, but it would be a good opportunity for a LispOS. Too good to waste. 2015-07-28T07:07:30Z White_Flame: complexity comes from the union of what everybody wants to do with something 2015-07-28T07:07:32Z aeth: White_Flame: At least you can avoid a whole class of exploits by using garbage collection iirc. 2015-07-28T07:07:36Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:07:49Z White_Flame: so "a server" platform, really needs to have all the knobs that are expected from current *nix servers 2015-07-28T07:08:11Z White_Flame: aeth: I agree that we should not be using C-style languages at the application level ever 2015-07-28T07:08:26Z p_l: White_Flame: it won't stop issues 2015-07-28T07:08:33Z p_l: lots of exploits for garbage collected languages 2015-07-28T07:08:34Z White_Flame: and that includes many OS services as "applications" 2015-07-28T07:08:45Z White_Flame: p_l: right, logic errors, exposed data, etc 2015-07-28T07:08:51Z p_l: and lots of issues in many places irrelevant to language 2015-07-28T07:09:02Z White_Flame: even if the system doesn't have "hack the VM" exploits 2015-07-28T07:09:11Z H4ns: mirageos is pretty much in the same area of the non-existent lispos that seems to be the basis for this discussion. https://mirage.io/ 2015-07-28T07:09:38Z White_Flame: p_l: but that's all in addition to "don't use C", not a replacement for it 2015-07-28T07:09:45Z p_l is struggling now to explain why some ThriftAPI crap hangs so long it leads to unavailability, and most of the stuff that Genera would bring to it was done with Solaris 2015-07-28T07:10:00Z aeth: H4ns: that name is overloaded. MirageOS was a pseudo-OS for the TI graphing calculators, hence the "mirage" part. 2015-07-28T07:10:16Z aeth: s/was/is/ 2015-07-28T07:10:18Z H4ns: aeth: is it too hard to follow the link that i provided? 2015-07-28T07:10:22Z aeth: I guess people still pay way too much for TIs 2015-07-28T07:10:33Z Zhivago: Why would you expect GC to avoid a whole class of exploits? 2015-07-28T07:10:36Z p_l: also, not sure if "pseudo-OS" is a category 2015-07-28T07:11:08Z aeth: p_l: it pretended to be an OS, it wasn't. 2015-07-28T07:11:12Z aeth: therefore MirageOS 2015-07-28T07:11:26Z White_Flame: the term would probably be "user space OS"? 2015-07-28T07:11:32Z aeth: http://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/139/13949.html 2015-07-28T07:11:33Z p_l: Operating System is whatever that gives you an operating environment. IRAF is an OS. OTP is an OS 2015-07-28T07:11:39Z aeth: same sort of niche as emacs. 2015-07-28T07:11:48Z aeth: way different hardware/capabilities 2015-07-28T07:11:49Z p_l: and yes, Emacs is also an OS 2015-07-28T07:12:19Z aeth: p_l: if emacs is an OS, is an IRC client an OS (a cloud OS!) because of IRC bots? 2015-07-28T07:12:20Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-28T07:12:25Z aeth: I think you can do just about everything through IRC bots. 2015-07-28T07:13:01Z p_l: aeth: no, an IRC client would be a terminal in this case. A framework for building interconnected IRC bots would count, though 2015-07-28T07:13:25Z aeth: H4ns: no, I followed the link and found it wasn't the MirageOS I knew of 2015-07-28T07:13:55Z White_Flame still has a TI-89 somewhere 2015-07-28T07:14:13Z aeth: TIs are terrible. They don't use postfix notation. 2015-07-28T07:14:13Z White_Flame: whoops, a TI-92 actually 2015-07-28T07:14:27Z White_Flame: well yeah, the HP-48G that I still have was much more useful in school 2015-07-28T07:14:32Z aeth: p_l: an IRC client is a thin client to an IRC bot cloud OS 2015-07-28T07:14:56Z aeth: who would have thought that the Cloud Computing future was already here when someone first wrote IRC bots? 2015-07-28T07:14:59Z p_l: aeth: a terminal, yes. It's not running those bots itself in this case 2015-07-28T07:15:29Z aeth: White_Flame: if you have Android you can download an emulator called Droid 48. 2015-07-28T07:15:31Z p_l: aeth: "cloud" is a throwback to mainframe "computer centers" of elder days, so.. 2015-07-28T07:15:35Z aeth: White_Flame: but that's offtopic 2015-07-28T07:15:57Z jackdaniel: < aeth> White_Flame: but that's offtopic <-------- big rotfl :) 2015-07-28T07:18:23Z aeth: p_l: when I write my Common Lisp IRC bot I think I'll call it a Cloud Operating System just for fun anyway 2015-07-28T07:18:36Z aeth: Cloud-Located Operating System. 2015-07-28T07:19:05Z White_Flame: I'm pretty sure the term "cloud" originated from network layout diagrams, indicating unknown machines on the internet 2015-07-28T07:19:11Z p_l: White_Flame: yes 2015-07-28T07:19:25Z Skrylar: yep 2015-07-28T07:19:33Z Skrylar: the cloud icon on the diagram, some marketer saw it 2015-07-28T07:19:34Z jackdaniel: t 2015-07-28T07:20:00Z White_Flame: and while it _should_ mean on-call utility computing, it most certainly just throws back to client/server models, not even mainframe distribution 2015-07-28T07:20:11Z Skrylar: also i saw someone mention droid48 2015-07-28T07:20:41Z Skrylar: i second this; and have a physical 50G next to that. HP calc users are the happiest =) 2015-07-28T07:21:10Z hocwp joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:21:58Z native_killer_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:23:21Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T07:25:34Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T07:25:49Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:28:16Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:31:55Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T07:35:09Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:37:58Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T07:39:01Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:46:21Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:46:34Z jackdaniel: if file which is (load "file.lisp") contains (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert), then after loading file readtable should be reset, right ? (http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm) 2015-07-28T07:48:04Z lieven: load binds *readtable* and *package* to the values they held before loading the file. 2015-07-28T07:48:31Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:48:59Z jackdaniel: yes, exactly (my is little cautious, when his understanding of spec diverges from sbcl behaviour :p) 2015-07-28T07:49:16Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T07:49:54Z jackdaniel: s/my/\/me/ 2015-07-28T07:50:58Z lieven: did you do a copy-readtable somewhere? 2015-07-28T07:51:24Z lieven: 2.1.1.2 makes it undefined behaviour to mess with the default one 2015-07-28T07:51:34Z jackdaniel: nah, created file 1.lisp containing only "(setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert)" and load it 2015-07-28T07:52:08Z jackdaniel: both sbcl and ecl has readtable-case after that bound to :invert (in toplevel) 2015-07-28T07:52:31Z lieven: although at startup you have the initial readtable which you are allowed to modify 2015-07-28T07:52:44Z Zhivago: You appear to be smashing the readtabkle. 2015-07-28T07:52:48Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-28T07:53:02Z Zhivago: Bind a local copy before modifying -- then the rebinding should restore it. 2015-07-28T07:54:46Z jackdaniel: nah, (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable *readtable*))) (load "1.lisp") (readtable-case *readtable*)) ; --> :invert 2015-07-28T07:55:21Z Zhivago: Ideally you would copy the read-table in the file being loaded. 2015-07-28T07:56:37Z jackdaniel: well, I'm aware that if I modify some other object, it won't affect original one, but what would be meaning of "load binds *readtable* and *package* to the values they held before loading the file." hen? 2015-07-28T07:56:41Z jackdaniel: s/hen/then/ 2015-07-28T07:57:04Z Zhivago: It means that it affects the variables *readtable* and *package*, not the objects they refer to. 2015-07-28T07:57:36Z jackdaniel: so, no matter what is in loaded file, readtable will be bound to the same value it had before loading it (that's my understaning) 2015-07-28T07:57:39Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T07:57:49Z Zhivago: I believe so. 2015-07-28T07:58:10Z Zhivago: Unfortunately you modified the object that value refers to. 2015-07-28T08:00:18Z jackdaniel: so correct behavior would be wrapping each load with (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable))) …), hm? 2015-07-28T08:01:00Z Zhivago: (setf *readtable* (copy-readable) (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert) should be sufficient. 2015-07-28T08:01:32Z superancetre joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:01:33Z jackdaniel: but you don't know apriori, what file contains 2015-07-28T08:02:13Z Zhivago: Well, if you're trying to protect yourself from bad code, that's another question. 2015-07-28T08:02:22Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T08:02:48Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:03:01Z jackdaniel: I'm wondering, if file setting something in readtable and loaded should affect other files, or is it implementation bug 2015-07-28T08:04:09Z Zhivago: It is undefined behavior. 2015-07-28T08:06:12Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:06:45Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:07:11Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T08:07:44Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:08:17Z jackdaniel: ok, I understand it now, thanks. Confused binds to original values with restores values from before 2015-07-28T08:11:43Z lisp-noob quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T08:12:36Z yeticry quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-28T08:13:28Z lisp-noob joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:13:52Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T08:18:16Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T08:19:18Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T08:20:02Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-28T08:21:32Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:23:02Z krfantasy joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:25:26Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:26:02Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:26:23Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:31:36Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-28T08:36:03Z kaleun quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T08:39:20Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T08:41:45Z _native_killer_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:41:45Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:45:04Z native_killer_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T08:46:07Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T08:49:35Z eazar_cool_night joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:52:16Z krfantasy1 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:53:30Z krfantasy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T08:56:52Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-07-28T08:57:05Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:02:24Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:03:23Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:08:22Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:10:27Z guiloooo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T09:12:18Z guiloooo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:13:32Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:14:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T09:15:10Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:17:26Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T09:17:52Z jackdaniel: ok, I've found guilty - ECL backend for swank doesn't have default-readtable-alist implementation and named-readtables put something in swank::*readtable-alist*, so swank recognizes this as primary readtable and overrides original binding 2015-07-28T09:17:56Z jackdaniel: uf 2015-07-28T09:18:54Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-28T09:19:50Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T09:24:56Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:28:35Z sigjuice_: is there an easy way to iterate over a list while processing N items per iteration? 2015-07-28T09:29:24Z jackdaniel: sigjuice_: any example? not sure what do you mean by processing 2015-07-28T09:30:58Z sigjuice_: something like (loop for (a b c d) in lst do (func a b c d)) 2015-07-28T09:31:00Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-28T09:31:57Z sigjuice_: where lst is a flat list of length 4N 2015-07-28T09:32:03Z H4ns: sigjuice_: (loop for (a b c) in lst by #'cdddr do ..) 2015-07-28T09:36:32Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:36:39Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T09:36:57Z sigjuice_: H4ns: I tried (loop for (a b c) in '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) by #'cdddr do (print (list 1 2 3))), but got the error "The value 1 is not of type LIST" 2015-07-28T09:38:40Z lieven: H4ns meant (loop for (a b c) on ....) 2015-07-28T09:39:47Z H4ns: sigjuice_: sorry, lieven is right, ON not IN 2015-07-28T09:41:46Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:44:12Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:45:58Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T09:47:05Z sigjuice_: lieven, H4ns: thanks! It works, but I don't think I understand it even after reading http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_abac.htm several times 2015-07-28T09:47:11Z krfantasy joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:48:04Z lieven: LOOP needs to be studied for a while before you get its full versatility 2015-07-28T09:48:35Z lieven: Practical Common Lisp's chapter Loop for black belts is nice 2015-07-28T09:49:32Z krfantasy1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T09:49:35Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:50:36Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:50:45Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:53:02Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T09:54:46Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:54:57Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-07-28T09:57:00Z rritoch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T09:59:51Z cheesepuffer joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:00:10Z soggybread joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:00:17Z cheesepuffer: Do I need to know binary to get through SICP or learn Lisp later on? 2015-07-28T10:00:25Z cheesepuffer: Because I just can't grasp the concept of binary. 2015-07-28T10:00:46Z cheesepuffer: It's not essential to being a great Lisp programmer or anything, right? 2015-07-28T10:03:24Z Cymew: lieven: "a while" can be a very long time... 2015-07-28T10:03:40Z krfantasy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T10:03:54Z krfantasy joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:04:26Z baotiao quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T10:07:45Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:11:52Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:16:02Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:17:22Z rritoch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T10:17:40Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:18:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:20:02Z Skrylar: cheesepuffer: what do you mean by binary? 2015-07-28T10:20:08Z Skrylar: 0s and 1s? 2015-07-28T10:20:15Z cheesepuffer: Yes. 2015-07-28T10:20:33Z Skrylar: you can avoid it for a while but its not that complicated 2015-07-28T10:20:44Z pegu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T10:21:01Z cheesepuffer: A uni classmate said knowing it is essential to Lisp programming. 2015-07-28T10:21:27Z cheesepuffer: And, from what I've looked at, I can't figure it out at all. 2015-07-28T10:21:36Z Skrylar: 0 is zero, 1 is one, 10 is three, 11 is four, and so on 2015-07-28T10:22:04Z hydan: cheesepuffer: there is programming and there is programming, depends what you *want* to end up doing 2015-07-28T10:22:25Z hydan: cheesepuffer: for doing CRUD, you probably do not need to know much of anything.. 2015-07-28T10:23:51Z Skrylar: i would say one encounters hexadecimal more than binary, generally 2015-07-28T10:23:58Z Skrylar: though its sort of the same deal 2015-07-28T10:24:00Z hydan: cheesepuffer: but if you want to end up doing actually interesting stuff, things that matter and help move the field and humanity forward.. you better invest in learning math, including binary. 2015-07-28T10:24:29Z White_Flame: Skrylar: you miscounted pretty badly there... 2015-07-28T10:24:41Z Skrylar: White_Flame: where? 2015-07-28T10:24:46Z Skrylar: oh. i forgot the two 2015-07-28T10:24:48Z Skrylar: poop. 2015-07-28T10:24:50Z White_Flame: yep 2015-07-28T10:25:06Z cheesepuffer: Will SICP help with learning math and binary? 2015-07-28T10:25:16Z White_Flame: SICP is about programming 2015-07-28T10:25:19Z Skrylar: White_Flame: well nobody ever needed 2s anyway 2015-07-28T10:25:22Z Skrylar: :D 2015-07-28T10:25:24Z White_Flame: heh 2015-07-28T10:26:02Z White_Flame: cheesepuffer: if you tried to learn something and it hasn't clicked, it's kind of unpredictable to say what will make it finally click for you 2015-07-28T10:26:23Z hydan: cheesepuffer: I listened to those folks who were saying "you don't need this, you don't need that" in the university.. and now I am learning them anyway, alone. so use the time in the university wisely, don't repeat my mistake :) 2015-07-28T10:27:08Z Skrylar: well, it does depend on what you're doing too 2015-07-28T10:27:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T10:27:19Z Skrylar: if you're making soul destroying business apps you probably don't, as was said earlier 2015-07-28T10:28:09Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:28:38Z White_Flame: I can't think of a time I've used binary in CL, except for doing interactive conversions for retro stuff 2015-07-28T10:28:45Z White_Flame: instead of a calculator program 2015-07-28T10:29:09Z hydan: cheesepuffer: I could give you couple of book recommendations, what is your current level of math knowledge? 2015-07-28T10:29:23Z cheesepuffer: Algebra I 2015-07-28T10:29:39Z cheesepuffer: Geometry 2015-07-28T10:29:51Z Skrylar tosses http://www.amazon.com/Algebra-Trigonometry-Edition-James-Stewart/dp/0840068131 in to the recommendation list 2015-07-28T10:30:08Z Skrylar: there's some free ones online for linear algebra 2015-07-28T10:30:32Z Skrylar: i didn't pay 200$ for it though o_O 2015-07-28T10:30:59Z rritoch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T10:31:06Z Firedancer: How often you use binary logic on non-embedded environment nowadays? 2015-07-28T10:32:02Z jackdaniel: on time-demanding tasks, like encryption 2015-07-28T10:32:03Z Skrylar: i use bitflags a lot 2015-07-28T10:32:05Z White_Flame: Firedancer: if you're interacting with OS-level APIs, or maybe with extracting bits from file formats 2015-07-28T10:32:16Z Skrylar: compact storage of many values mostly 2015-07-28T10:32:25Z Skrylar: or unicode 2015-07-28T10:32:53Z jackdaniel: there is nice lib for cl - binary-formats that is 2015-07-28T10:32:56Z hydan: cheesepuffer: actually, khanacademy is really good for pre-uni stuff. they have exercises as well 2015-07-28T10:33:01Z jackdaniel: or binary-types, don't remember 2015-07-28T10:33:13Z Firedancer: Hmm okay I forgot files 2015-07-28T10:33:27Z Skrylar: usually you aren't doing binary with files though 2015-07-28T10:33:31Z Skrylar: you're just dealing with positions 2015-07-28T10:33:39Z Skrylar: nobody i know actually looks at a bit field raw 2015-07-28T10:34:01Z Firedancer: Encryption is pretty niche for programming. You really should never write you own implementation in there 2015-07-28T10:34:17Z Skrylar: people say that but somebody always breaks that rule 2015-07-28T10:34:19Z hydan: cheesepuffer: when you are done with that: http://www.amazon.com/Art-Doing-Science-Engineering-ebook/dp/B000P2XFPA/ gives a really good perspective on your career and among those things why you actually need math 2015-07-28T10:34:22Z Skrylar: if they didn't we would never have any implementations :) 2015-07-28T10:36:53Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T10:37:37Z jackdaniel: Firedancer: who should write it then? 2015-07-28T10:38:33Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T10:38:43Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:39:12Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: security experts. 2015-07-28T10:39:16Z Firedancer: jackdaniel: Mostly people who lifework is security 2015-07-28T10:39:19Z Firedancer: *whos 2015-07-28T10:39:30Z Skrylar: well, there are fun things like klee that help 2015-07-28T10:39:59Z Skrylar: [klee is a symbolic execution framework for llvm that tries to explore all branches of a program to break it] 2015-07-28T10:40:11Z hydan: cheesepuffer: http://www.amazon.com/Methods-Mathematics-Calculus-Probability-Statistics/dp/0486439453 is not easy, but it has references to books you need to really understand the method and approach. i.e. "how to solve it" "how to prove it". http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Mathematical-Thinking-Keith-Devlin/dp/0615653634 has more to say about proper approach 2015-07-28T10:40:11Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T10:40:23Z jackdaniel: well, yes, I do agree that stuff ought to be done by people, who know what to do, but how do they gain knowledge? and such argument is like saying -don't write applications, you might put there bug 2015-07-28T10:40:55Z Skrylar: jackdaniel: its one of those general purpose caveats. you should not write crypto code unless you are actually a crypto researcher, simply because most programmers write bugs 2015-07-28T10:41:03Z hydan: cheesepuffer: I will throw in http://www.amazon.com/Hackers-Delight-2nd-Henry-Warren/dp/0321842685 as well for binary 2015-07-28T10:41:04Z Skrylar: where a normal bug would be "oh poop a bug", bugs in crypto generally results in data theft 2015-07-28T10:41:17Z jackdaniel: bugs in applications often result in exploits 2015-07-28T10:41:36Z Firedancer: There are different levels of exploits 2015-07-28T10:41:49Z jackdaniel: becoming security expert requires being security expert - chicken meet egg 2015-07-28T10:42:23Z Skrylar: its fine to write it to learn 2015-07-28T10:42:31Z Skrylar: just don't deploy it without making sure its fully tested 2015-07-28T10:42:45Z Skrylar: generally pre-made crypto code is already tested 2015-07-28T10:43:06Z Skrylar: its one of those situations where admin tools say to consult your administrator =p 2015-07-28T10:43:56Z jackdaniel: pre-made crypto contains bugs as well, or even worse - imperfections put there purpotedly 2015-07-28T10:44:15Z Skrylar: heh. 2015-07-28T10:44:17Z cheesepuffer: I live in Compton, so, I don't have a lot of resources or support for learning this programming stuff. 2015-07-28T10:44:25Z Skrylar: and thats why i used to use the second best algorithms :D 2015-07-28T10:44:29Z Skrylar: everyone is trying to break the first 2015-07-28T10:44:45Z hydan: cheesepuffer: to me, part of the real beauty of Lisp are the lisp systems, the compilers, the environment and the way you can go from really high level to really low level just by doing M-. 2015-07-28T10:44:47Z Skrylar: (or in the case of some RSAs, pre-broke the first :\) 2015-07-28T10:44:55Z jackdaniel: anyway for me saying "you should never to that, because you can make a mistake" is a fallacy - everybody can make mistake 2015-07-28T10:45:10Z Skrylar: jackdaniel: its mostly a rule of thumb 2015-07-28T10:45:10Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:45:13Z dvb_ua quit (Quit: #mesa) 2015-07-28T10:45:19Z Skrylar: you shouldn't write code that already exists in general 2015-07-28T10:45:29Z Skrylar: but sometimes it does exist but its not round enough :( 2015-07-28T10:45:33Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:45:35Z White_Flame: cheesepuffer: you have the internet, what more do you need? :) 2015-07-28T10:45:36Z jackdaniel: not that I'm interested in crypto in any sense, just it's a rule of thumb - people outside it discourage friends to learn programming for instance 2015-07-28T10:45:36Z hydan: cheesepuffer: and you do benefit from actually understanding both ends a lot. 2015-07-28T10:45:36Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:45:45Z jackdaniel: for the very same reasons - it's hard and leave it to experts 2015-07-28T10:45:54Z Skrylar: oh, i wouldn't use it for that 2015-07-28T10:46:12Z Skrylar: actually i'm a big fan of how 90s computers forced you to deal with the basic prompt to get it booted 2015-07-28T10:46:19Z hydan: White_Flame: he probably does not believe he can do it :) cheesepuffer: you can do it! 2015-07-28T10:46:36Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-07-28T10:46:47Z dvb_ua quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-28T10:46:52Z Skrylar: a german domain with a japanese quit message 2015-07-28T10:46:57Z Skrylar: now thats interesting =o 2015-07-28T10:47:50Z White_Flame: minion, tell cheesepuffer about PCL 2015-07-28T10:47:50Z minion: cheesepuffer: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-28T10:48:05Z White_Flame: don't worry about binary, just learn Lisp 2015-07-28T10:50:22Z z0d: but with a Japanese nick 2015-07-28T10:51:27Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:51:59Z jackdaniel: btw - ^_^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg 2015-07-28T10:52:40Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:54:03Z xificurC_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:54:08Z ronh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T10:54:26Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T10:54:30Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T10:55:24Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T10:55:28Z eazar_cool_night quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-28T10:55:53Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-28T11:01:14Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T11:01:21Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-28T11:01:46Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T11:06:13Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-07-28T11:10:36Z madmalik joined #lisp 2015-07-28T11:11:58Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T11:13:11Z kolba joined #lisp 2015-07-28T11:13:13Z kolba left #lisp 2015-07-28T11:15:51Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-28T11:17:58Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'm curious how do you handle logging? 2015-07-28T11:42:44Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-28T11:46:05Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T11:49:29Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-28T11:49:35Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-07-28T11:50:38Z francogrex: hi, what could be the proble with this, it was compiling/loading just last week: asdf did not change, the libs as far as I know have not changed yet I get this asdf error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152507 2015-07-28T11:50:54Z francogrex: UIOP/LISP-BUILD:COMPILE-FILE-ERROR ... 2015-07-28T11:51:04Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T11:51:09Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus 2015-07-28T11:56:06Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-28T11:58:29Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-28T11:59:06Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-28T11:59:20Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:02:11Z jackdaniel: francogrex: no idea, but try to remove cache - rm -fr ~/.cache/common-lisp/* 2015-07-28T12:02:31Z jackdaniel: and start lisp again 2015-07-28T12:02:55Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-28T12:05:20Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: have you try update quicklisp and library? 2015-07-28T12:06:30Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:06:43Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: why should I? 2015-07-28T12:07:55Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: are you loading with quicklisp ? 2015-07-28T12:08:25Z jackdaniel: yes, but its francogrex who has a problem, maybe you meant to ask him? 2015-07-28T12:09:26Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:10:35Z ebrasca: francogrex: have you try update quicklisp and library? 2015-07-28T12:10:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:11:44Z jack__ quit (Quit: 离开) 2015-07-28T12:12:49Z ebrasca: afk 2015-07-28T12:13:46Z pjb``: aeth: http://cliki.net/s-exp+syntax 2015-07-28T12:13:47Z minion: pjb``, memo from PuercoPop: I'm surprised to not find a logging libray in all of com.infomatima6go. I'm curious how do you handle logging? 2015-07-28T12:13:52Z Firedancer: I have played way too much moba games as afk fills me with rage 2015-07-28T12:18:37Z jason_m quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T12:18:44Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:19:13Z qubitnerd is now known as Guest17950 2015-07-28T12:19:43Z soultadu joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:21:12Z HisaoNakai joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:21:18Z HisaoNakai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T12:21:58Z pjb``: PuercoPop: As always, with some NIH "library", so basically, a single function :-) I'm not a man of complicated needs. 2015-07-28T12:22:19Z Guthur: from http://cliki.net/s-exp+syntax readable seems like an odd thing to do 2015-07-28T12:22:23Z dvb_ua quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-07-28T12:22:50Z soultadu: has anyone tried ecl on android from playstore? I was trying to load a *.lisp file, and probe-file is successful, but load fails. Sorry, I am a beginner. 2015-07-28T12:23:06Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T12:23:13Z Guthur: i was actually half expecting to find a clojure syntax reader 2015-07-28T12:23:17Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:23:55Z eudoxia: heh 2015-07-28T12:24:25Z jackdaniel: soultadu: didn't try it - out of curiosity, what is result of (lisp-implementation-version) 2015-07-28T12:26:24Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T12:26:29Z soultadu: 12.12.1 2015-07-28T12:27:08Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-28T12:27:18Z jackdaniel: ouch 2015-07-28T12:27:33Z mercwithamouth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T12:28:59Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T12:29:03Z jackdaniel: soultadu: you can try (load filespec :verbose t) 2015-07-28T12:29:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T12:29:10Z jackdaniel: maybe it will show up something 2015-07-28T12:29:56Z soultadu: Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a try. 2015-07-28T12:30:02Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:30:25Z jackdaniel: hopefully on september ecl will spring official app :) 2015-07-28T12:30:51Z Guest17950 quit (Changing host) 2015-07-28T12:30:51Z Guest17950 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:32:38Z soultadu: :) 2015-07-28T12:33:14Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:35:22Z Guest17950 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T12:35:35Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:38:08Z francogrex quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-28T12:42:35Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T12:43:40Z kini quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-07-28T12:43:53Z paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T12:45:42Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:49:14Z pjb``: Skrylar: ruby has a standard just like Common Lisp! What more of a spec do you need??? 2015-07-28T12:50:06Z pjb``: aeth: here it is: http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=59579 2015-07-28T12:50:19Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:50:26Z pjb``: Now write a cl-ruby implementation, please! 2015-07-28T12:50:58Z pjb``: Zhivago: Ruby HAD a reference implementations, nowadays it has a standard and a specification! Try to keep up to date! 2015-07-28T12:51:35Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:51:46Z pjb``: The Ruby standard is 3 full years old! 2015-07-28T12:53:31Z kini joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:54:54Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-07-28T12:55:13Z mrottenkolber: Hi 2015-07-28T12:55:17Z theos: hey 2015-07-28T12:56:14Z _native_killer_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T12:57:31Z dim: minion: memo for Fare: we need you to upload latest version of asdf in cl-asdf debian package, please, get to me if you have questions! 2015-07-28T12:57:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-28T12:57:55Z mrottenkolber: I am in need of a extremely fast hash function for 6 bytes of input (or an (unsigned-byte 48) if you so will, whose output size is configurable. E.g. (hash value size) => (unsigned-byte <size>). This is not really a Lisp question but maybe someone has an idea anyways. :) 2015-07-28T12:58:31Z mrottenkolber: It doesn't need any cryptographic qualities, just even distribution 2015-07-28T12:58:54Z dim: sxhash? 2015-07-28T12:59:35Z dim: clhs sxhash 2015-07-28T12:59:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sxhash.htm 2015-07-28T12:59:41Z nyef: If you have even distribution over (unsigned-byte <size>), surely you also have even distribution over (unsigned-byte <size-1>) by masking off the high bit? 2015-07-28T13:02:53Z mrottenkolber: nyef: Fair point. 2015-07-28T13:03:06Z mrottenkolber: Could actually be good enough. 2015-07-28T13:03:18Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:03:59Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:04:05Z nyef: Admittedly, if your hash function isn't evenly distributed, this may highlight the uneven distribution, particularly if it's uneven in the low bits. 2015-07-28T13:05:04Z flip214: mrottenkolber: if you know the used bit-patterns in advance, you could run the optimal hash generator 2015-07-28T13:06:42Z mrottenkolber: flip214: The input are MAC addresses. 2015-07-28T13:07:05Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:07:18Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:07:57Z flip214: then some generic function is the best bet, probably... although the first 3 bytes won't be evenly distributed ;) perhaps just returning (LOGAND (the last 3 bytes) bitmask) is good enough? 2015-07-28T13:08:42Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:08:48Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:10:01Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:11:54Z soultadu_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:12:09Z glump joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:13:32Z soultadu_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-28T13:14:50Z soultadu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:16:27Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T13:17:57Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:18:42Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:19:07Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T13:19:09Z glump: what are my options about disabling/forbidding cons reuse in SBCL? 2015-07-28T13:19:35Z fe[nl]ix: "cons reuse" ? 2015-07-28T13:19:35Z H4ns: glump: what do you want to achieve? 2015-07-28T13:22:11Z glump: I have a function adding a cons (say (A B)) to a larger structure; afterwards, the (A B)'s CDR is modified by adding another cons, and it becomes (A B C D); when I bind the variable holding everything to nil to begin again, everything hanging off its CDR should be eligible for garbage collection? After I recreate the structure again and the code again adds (A B), what gets added is the last value, (A B C D). So is this to be 2015-07-28T13:22:12Z glump: expected? 2015-07-28T13:23:02Z H4ns: glump: you could stop modifying the conses. why do you use destructive operations in the first place? 2015-07-28T13:23:36Z H4ns: glump: you cannot prevent sbcl from doing what you ask it to do. if you modify a cons, then you get what you did, a modified cons :) 2015-07-28T13:24:06Z nyef: And if it's a literal cons in source code, well, then you're REALLY asking for trouble. 2015-07-28T13:24:20Z p_l: nyef: oh boy, does he :D 2015-07-28T13:27:13Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:27:13Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-28T13:27:13Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:27:39Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:28:49Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:29:04Z j_king: bounded arrays, structs... the same structures you use for performance in any reasonable language. algorithms for efficiency. i only really use lists for code generation or small collections in my super-small lisp projects so far. 2015-07-28T13:29:11Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-28T13:30:49Z oleo: hello o) 2015-07-28T13:31:00Z glump: I don't understand. At the end of the paragraph entitled "functional programming and lists" at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html 2015-07-28T13:31:22Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:31:27Z H4ns: glump: what don't you understand? 2015-07-28T13:31:34Z glump: there is a graph showing what I'm talking about. When the code modifies the first cons, it's a different entity that what gets added initially 2015-07-28T13:31:48Z pinterface1 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:32:12Z mrottenkolber: H4ns: hey at leat give him time to type his question ;) Hi there btw, how's life? 2015-07-28T13:32:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:32:54Z tristero quit (Quit: tristero) 2015-07-28T13:33:00Z pinterface quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:33:03Z glump: the cdr of the "2" is different, in the first case it points to the "3" cell, in the second case it's to nil 2015-07-28T13:33:15Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:33:16Z H4ns: mrottenkolber: it is good to send a message to irc only when it is finished for that reason :) - i'm fine, currently in france with bad weather and a replacement vacation ahead. yourself? 2015-07-28T13:33:44Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:33:58Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:34:51Z Cymew: glump: Yes? So what's the question? 2015-07-28T13:35:13Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:35:18Z mrottenkolber: H4ns: Hehe, yeah autumn out of nowhere suddenly... I just came back from a visit to Luke and Ann's place in Switzerland... they got a lovely mountain home! :) 2015-07-28T13:35:21Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:35:32Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:35:34Z glump: so when the first cons is seen again, Lisp does not seem to check all members of the cons. The cdr of the "2" is different in both cases. Before reusing it, should not all members of the cons be the same? 2015-07-28T13:36:38Z Cymew: "when the first cons is seen again"? 2015-07-28T13:36:55Z otwieracz: http://metalcaptcha.heavygifts.com/ 2015-07-28T13:36:56Z glump: Cymew: when the function is run again 2015-07-28T13:37:03Z otwieracz: not here, sorry :-) 2015-07-28T13:37:08Z jackdaniel: glump: do you use '(a . b) or rather (cons a b) ? 2015-07-28T13:37:30Z glump: it's a literal 2015-07-28T13:37:32Z H4ns: mrottenkolber: nice. i've seen pictures - some day i'll have to drop by as well 2015-07-28T13:37:36Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:37:48Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:38:07Z dim: H4ns: france? I'm in Paris, if you want to share a beer and talk lisp (or something else) ;-) 2015-07-28T13:38:52Z H4ns: dim: i'm near nantes and considering the weather, we're planning to head southwards. maybe some other time :) 2015-07-28T13:39:28Z Cymew: glump: "Lisp does not seem to check all members"? I really don't understand your terminology. 2015-07-28T13:39:31Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T13:39:46Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:40:12Z H4ns: glump: maybe you want to paste some code to paste.lisp.org that demonstrates your problem 2015-07-28T13:40:43Z Cymew: glump: The point of that section is to show how APPEND reuses the cons (3 4) when creating the list (1 2 3 4). 2015-07-28T13:40:51Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:40:52Z dim: H4ns: southwards sounds good, I'm doing that next week (Bordeaux area), enjoy! 2015-07-28T13:41:33Z Cymew: If you have any question about that, try to make them short and concise, or if you have some question about some code, please follow H4ns advice and paste it, and we'll dissect it together. 2015-07-28T13:41:55Z glump: Cymew: I mean members of the cons. In (A B) the cdr of B cell points to nil. In (A B C D) the same place points to the C cell. When I say "members" I mean cons and cdr, and in the cdr of B is different in (A B) and in (A B C D) why would lisp give me (A B C D) when I write (A B)? 2015-07-28T13:42:13Z H4ns: glump: a cons has no "members", it has two elements called car and cdr 2015-07-28T13:42:54Z glump: H4ns, be my guest 2015-07-28T13:43:00Z Cymew: Exactly. Don't add terminology. It just confuses things. 2015-07-28T13:43:38Z Cymew: Let's break this down: "why would lisp give me (A B C D) when I write (A B)". Show us some code that does that. 2015-07-28T13:43:47Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-07-28T13:43:49Z jackdaniel: glump: replace all '(a b c) with (list a b c) 2015-07-28T13:44:00Z jackdaniel: such literals, if you modify them, are persistant 2015-07-28T13:44:48Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:46:25Z glump: jackdaniel: I get that modifications remain, that's expected. But my question is still: the car and cdr of B in (A B) and in (A B C D) are different. When (A B) is seen again, why does Lisp return (A B C D)? The cdr of the B cell is different, it's not what (A B) says 2015-07-28T13:47:35Z dlowe: glump: do you know what a linked list is? 2015-07-28T13:48:11Z glump: sure do 2015-07-28T13:48:26Z jackdaniel: tell us :p 2015-07-28T13:48:28Z dlowe: ok, so a "list" in lisp is just a linked list, where "next" is called "cdr" 2015-07-28T13:48:35Z Cymew: I'd still would like to see that code that returns (A B C D) when you expect (A B) 2015-07-28T13:48:54Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:48:57Z Cymew: I think you are overthinking things 2015-07-28T13:50:18Z glump: I think, on the other hand, that Lisp os overoptimizing things behind my back. Can anyone answer my question? 2015-07-28T13:50:33Z dlowe: Cymew: that's easy. (let* ((list1 (list 'a 'b)) (list2 list1)) (setf (cddr list1) (list 'c 'd)) list2) 2015-07-28T13:51:18Z dlowe: glump: you see what I did? list1 and list2 point to the same head of the list, so altering one also altered the other 2015-07-28T13:51:55Z glump: this is not what confuses me. Please read my question. 2015-07-28T13:51:56Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:51:57Z H4ns: glump: nobody can answer your question because you're using terminology that nobody except yourself understands. 2015-07-28T13:52:11Z Cymew: dlowe: Sure I can construct such a thing as well. I just think glump would be enlightened by trying some examples. 2015-07-28T13:52:16Z glump: H4ns, shut up, your "help" is not appreciated 2015-07-28T13:52:20Z H4ns: glump: maybe you should reread the text so that you actually understand, or maybe you need a different text. 2015-07-28T13:53:04Z Cymew: glump: We are trying to help. You might not like it, but inventing terminology helps nobody. 2015-07-28T13:53:38Z glump: maybe you should shut the fuck up. It's obvious that you pick on any little detail and like being confrontational. Go back to your BBS days. 2015-07-28T13:53:46Z H4ns: what? 2015-07-28T13:53:53Z Cymew: glump: Are you sure you want help? 2015-07-28T13:53:54Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:54:11Z Cymew: Calm down 2015-07-28T13:54:21Z dlowe: eh, I'm out. 2015-07-28T13:54:58Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:54:59Z jackdaniel: glump: you are being rude to people, who have more interesting things to do then to help newbies. show some gratitude instead of behaving like 10 years old 2015-07-28T13:55:03Z glump: if H4ns writes "if by member you mean blah blah", then that's much more helpful that the smug attitude of "there is no member", and "no one can understand you" 2015-07-28T13:55:06Z Cymew: glump: Try some code. Don't try to figure it out. That's my final advice. 2015-07-28T13:56:02Z glump: Cymew: A concrete question (and H4ns, you are welcome too): where in the hyperspec is this behavior explained? 2015-07-28T13:56:29Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:56:53Z glump: or "characterized", or "defined", or your godly word of choice 2015-07-28T13:57:08Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T13:57:18Z fe[nl]ix has set mode +b *!~admin@*.telefonica.net 2015-07-28T13:57:18Z glump [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (glump) 2015-07-28T13:57:32Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:58:21Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:58:30Z mercwithamouth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T13:58:38Z Cymew: What the heck was he really asking about? 2015-07-28T13:58:44Z pjb is now known as Guest47325 2015-07-28T13:59:30Z H4ns: *shrug* 2015-07-28T13:59:33Z kolko joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:59:38Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-28T13:59:38Z mrottenkolber: CONSfusion 2015-07-28T13:59:56Z Cymew: That's a good one ;) 2015-07-28T13:59:59Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-28T14:00:33Z jackdaniel: he probably return '(1 2) from somwhere , destructively modified it and was wondering, why function result is different on next calls (just guessing) 2015-07-28T14:01:00Z H4ns: i had the impression that he did not even have a lisp running and just got confused with the text. 2015-07-28T14:01:13Z Cymew: I'd bet money on that 2015-07-28T14:02:00Z Cymew: I mean, twiddling conses can be CONSfusing, but it becomes much clearer when you try it out. 2015-07-28T14:02:01Z reb``: mrottenkolber: Regarding your hashing question. You might try specializing sip-hash or city-hash for 6-byte inputs. 2015-07-28T14:03:06Z pjb``: fe[nl]ix: you could have mentionned #clnoobs before kicking. 2015-07-28T14:03:39Z fe[nl]ix: when people start swearing, a ban is in order 2015-07-28T14:03:44Z mrottenkolber: reb``: I decided to simply use the last 3 bytes and ignore the first 3. Sounds weird but actually makes sense given the practicalities of MAC addresses. 2015-07-28T14:04:26Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:04:58Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:05:11Z foom joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:05:21Z Cymew: Soon I'll start swearing, if I spend more time with regexp writing... 2015-07-28T14:05:48Z mrottenkolber: Cymew: https://github.com/eugeneia/mpc 2015-07-28T14:05:49Z dlowe: well, swearing at other people 2015-07-28T14:06:04Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:06:17Z mrottenkolber: Cymew: http://mr.gy/maintenance/mpc/manual.html#section-2 2015-07-28T14:07:51Z Cymew: Jeebus. The kids these days, the tools they create! :) Seriously, It's more about MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND at this stage. I got the regexp to work, but my blood pressure has not dropped yet. 2015-07-28T14:08:49Z dlowe: maybe a parser would have been a better solution :) 2015-07-28T14:08:57Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:09:06Z mrottenkolber: it always is 2015-07-28T14:09:07Z dlowe: I tend to drop regexes if they become even slightly nontrivial 2015-07-28T14:09:13Z dlowe: I wouldn't say always. 2015-07-28T14:09:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T14:09:47Z mrottenkolber: If a regex can do it, a parser can too. Usually the parser grammar is more readable though. ;) justmy opinion. 2015-07-28T14:09:49Z dim: well I tend to use split-sequence then a parser, and regexp only as a user interface when needed 2015-07-28T14:09:58Z pjb` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-28T14:10:00Z dim: dlowe: esrap is really good, IMO 2015-07-28T14:10:07Z Guest47325 quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-28T14:10:21Z dlowe: yeah, I like it. 2015-07-28T14:10:24Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:10:48Z dlowe: I reach for cl-ppcre:split instead of split-sequence, though 2015-07-28T14:11:37Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-07-28T14:11:51Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T14:14:51Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:17:38Z rritoch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T14:18:13Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:18:16Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:18:55Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-28T14:21:57Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:23:53Z krfantasy quit (Quit: krfantasy) 2015-07-28T14:24:25Z fe[nl]ix: if anybody is interested in using Lisp on Travis-CI see http://blog.cddr.org/2015/07/28/native-travisci-support-for-common-lisp/ 2015-07-28T14:25:37Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T14:29:24Z murphy joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:31:41Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:31:53Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:31:56Z rritoch quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-28T14:35:26Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T14:40:11Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-28T14:43:19Z dim: fe[nl]ix: well I do that with a make check that compiles the code into a binary image then run it with test cases 2015-07-28T14:43:37Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/.travis.yml 2015-07-28T14:43:40Z dim: in case it's useful 2015-07-28T14:46:01Z hlavaty: i use hydra on nixos for ci, it doesnt have the limitations of travis 2015-07-28T14:47:45Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:48:50Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:50:38Z _native_killer_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:50:45Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T14:52:42Z nisstyre quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T14:52:54Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:55:06Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:55:36Z Riviera joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:56:02Z theos: has there been enough work on speech recognition in CL? 2015-07-28T14:56:26Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-28T14:58:15Z hlavaty: unlikely 2015-07-28T15:01:03Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:01:21Z francogrex: on using (SB-IMPL::READ-FROM-C-STRING/UTF-8 #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X10210020) CHARACTER) I get this: :UTF-8 c-string decoding error: the octet sequence #(146) cannot be decoded 2015-07-28T15:02:11Z francogrex: what sbcl can read those from string (non printing characters) or at least to get around the error 2015-07-28T15:02:33Z H4ns: francogrex: you could use the correct encoding instead of utf-8 2015-07-28T15:02:52Z H4ns: francogrex: flexi-streams can insert replacement characters for undecodable input 2015-07-28T15:03:07Z nyef: SBCL should be able to insert replacements as well. 2015-07-28T15:03:51Z francogrex: #\Private-Use-Two what the hell is that character... 2015-07-28T15:04:38Z nyef: Umm... You're doing something wrong. 2015-07-28T15:04:55Z francogrex: if sbcl can then the wrong function is being used by me/the lib: READ-FROM-C-STRING/UTF-8 2015-07-28T15:05:20Z francogrex: nyef: it's from clsql accessing a oracle database 2015-07-28T15:05:39Z francogrex: not surprised there are shit characters there as the db has been a mess,but still 2015-07-28T15:05:44Z nyef: Okay, and what encoding is your database connection using? 2015-07-28T15:05:51Z francogrex: utf-8 2015-07-28T15:05:54Z nyef: And what encoding is the database using internally? 2015-07-28T15:06:08Z akkad: are there any tools for refactoring, dead code elimination, linting etc? 2015-07-28T15:06:09Z francogrex: aha, that I don't know 2015-07-28T15:06:23Z nyef: Because, again, that's not a valid utf-8 sequence. 2015-07-28T15:07:18Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T15:07:32Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T15:07:37Z nyef: All it says is "you've got the wrong encoding, I don't know how to map from this to a char-code". 2015-07-28T15:08:13Z francogrex: no the challenge is to know the encoding... 2015-07-28T15:08:24Z francogrex: I will use gdb to access that pointer 2015-07-28T15:08:43Z nyef: Can you ask the database what it thinks the encoding is? 2015-07-28T15:09:02Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:10:14Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:11:28Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-28T15:12:06Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-28T15:14:10Z francogrex: i will see how I can get the encoding however looking at the pointer, x /1260db 0X10210020 I do not find the code 146 there... the other codes all make sense for example: 84 104 105 115 32 ... 2015-07-28T15:15:56Z hlavaty: SELECT value$ FROM sys.props$ WHERE name = 'NLS_CHARACTERSET' ; should give you AL32UTF8 2015-07-28T15:19:10Z francogrex: yes AL32UTF8 2015-07-28T15:19:45Z francogrex: and NLS_NCHAR_CHARACTERSET" "AL16UTF16" 2015-07-28T15:19:52Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T15:20:56Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:23:41Z fe[nl]ix: dim: I don't understand what you're referring to 2015-07-28T15:28:03Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T15:28:26Z myrkraverk: What is a good way to "assign" elements in a list to a names? As in, given '(10 11 12) I'd like the equivalent-ish of (let ((a 10) (b 11) (c 12)) ...) 2015-07-28T15:28:35Z francogrex: so what is AL32UTF8 in sbcl encoding? 2015-07-28T15:29:15Z xificurC_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-28T15:29:32Z hlavaty: AL32UTF8 is oracle speciality 2015-07-28T15:29:34Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:30:00Z hlavaty: i think you can treat is as closest to utf8 as it gets on oracle:-) 2015-07-28T15:31:28Z francogrex: hlavaty: ok. I found some similar issue discussed here: http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/unicode-problem-sbcl-running-on-freebsd/701503 I'll read through 2015-07-28T15:31:28Z brpocock: myrkraverk: (destructuring-bind (a b c) '(10 11 12) … ) ; ? 2015-07-28T15:31:47Z myrkraverk: brpocock: thank you. 2015-07-28T15:36:14Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T15:37:07Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T15:37:33Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:38:11Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-28T15:38:21Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:38:21Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-28T15:38:21Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:38:34Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-28T15:39:28Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:39:58Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-28T15:40:57Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:41:09Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-28T15:41:32Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T15:42:36Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-28T15:43:24Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:44:23Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:46:00Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:46:09Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T15:49:04Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-28T15:50:07Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-28T15:50:24Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:50:40Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T15:51:32Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:54:15Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:54:48Z Ettore quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-28T15:57:06Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-28T15:59:39Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T15:59:56Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:01:05Z fleaswallow joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:03:15Z eschulte joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:05:40Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:07:30Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:08:31Z mrSpec: Hi guys! I've got emacs/slime related question. In my lisp project I defined defun*, now I'd like to make emacs stain this keyword like defun(in fact not just defun* keyword, but also the function-name). Does anyone know how I can do this easily? 2015-07-28T16:09:00Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-28T16:09:05Z fe[nl]ix: mrSpec: "stain" ? 2015-07-28T16:09:35Z jackdaniel: mark with color I think 2015-07-28T16:09:42Z cluck: i suspect he means colorize/fontify it 2015-07-28T16:10:46Z mrSpec: yes, colorize is better word 2015-07-28T16:12:15Z hlavaty: try #emacs 2015-07-28T16:13:46Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-28T16:13:57Z mercwithamouth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T16:14:28Z mrSpec: hlavaty: I can, but I thought that I'm not alone, who defines functions similar to existing ones, and wants the same colors ;) 2015-07-28T16:14:56Z reb``: mrSpec: I have a solution for you ... 2015-07-28T16:15:07Z jackdaniel: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AddKeywords 2015-07-28T16:16:53Z reb``: mrSpec: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152530 2015-07-28T16:17:21Z mrSpec: reb``: perfect! thanks 2015-07-28T16:18:05Z antoszka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T16:18:47Z XachX: fe[nl]ix: can you add "lisp" as a category on your most recent post? 2015-07-28T16:19:32Z fe[nl]ix: just a moment 2015-07-28T16:20:36Z antoszka joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:22:09Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:24:44Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:26:00Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T16:26:47Z superancetre quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-28T16:27:33Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T16:28:02Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:28:15Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:29:08Z musegarden quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T16:30:09Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:32:21Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:33:42Z salva quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T16:34:41Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-28T16:36:12Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:36:29Z cluck quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-28T16:37:08Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-28T16:37:21Z fe[nl]ix: XachX: done 2015-07-28T16:37:45Z Ven quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-28T16:41:08Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T16:41:57Z mrottenkolber quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T16:44:15Z musegarden joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:44:45Z bendiken joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:47:01Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:48:26Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-28T16:52:52Z luis: mrSpec: I use this to keywordify everything that starts with def and with- (font-lock-add-keywords 'lisp-mode '(("(\\(\\(def\\|with-\\)\\(\\s_\\|\\w\\)*\\)" 1 font-lock-keyword-face))) 2015-07-28T16:52:58Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:53:34Z luis: mrSpec: please tweak it to not keywordify things that start with "default" ;-) 2015-07-28T16:53:51Z mrSpec: ;) I'll take a look 2015-07-28T16:55:46Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:56:12Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T16:57:02Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-28T16:57:35Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T16:59:42Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:04:53Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:11:26Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T17:11:51Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-28T17:12:29Z musegarden quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T17:17:55Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:20:00Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:20:11Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:20:12Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-28T17:23:08Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:23:18Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:23:20Z Bahman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T17:24:50Z mearnsh quit (*.net *.split) 2015-07-28T17:29:34Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:29:45Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:31:53Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-28T17:32:37Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T17:33:48Z akkad: wow swank has a local context. 2015-07-28T17:35:13Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:35:34Z akkad: slime -> remote swank, auto complete uses local paths that are invalid in remote lisp image 2015-07-28T17:36:18Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:38:00Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:38:10Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:41:30Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:42:17Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:46:25Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T17:46:47Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:48:07Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T17:49:35Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:49:43Z JJJJJJJJJJJJ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:50:48Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-28T17:53:50Z Jaskologist_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T17:53:50Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:56:14Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-28T17:57:37Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-28T17:58:36Z akkad: if you run something in the foreground on slime that's connceted to a remote swank server, and it loses connectivity, does what ever was running exit? 2015-07-28T17:59:52Z brpocock: depends on how you launch swank, but it won't exit only because slime dropped. (If you lost a controlling tty, then, maybe) 2015-07-28T18:00:16Z akkad: excellent. thanks 2015-07-28T18:00:44Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:03:00Z gendl__ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:06:49Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T18:09:01Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:09:38Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:09:41Z KingNato quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-28T18:10:53Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T18:11:16Z _native_killer_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T18:12:18Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:12:40Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:15:54Z KingNato quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-28T18:18:06Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T18:20:24Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T18:29:49Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:32:39Z kolko_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:32:44Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T18:34:50Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:35:03Z mercwithamouth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T18:35:06Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T18:36:18Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:36:50Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:37:09Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:39:14Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T18:40:39Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T18:46:05Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T18:46:33Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:47:56Z Filystyn joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:48:04Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:48:07Z Filystyn: is lisp dead?:> 2015-07-28T18:48:41Z p_l: nope, nyet, nie, いええ 2015-07-28T18:49:05Z akkad: нет? 2015-07-28T18:49:18Z akkad: software takes a long time to die 2015-07-28T18:50:11Z jackdaniel: it just smells funny ^_^ 2015-07-28T18:50:24Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:50:40Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:51:36Z p_l: it's more visible than mainframes and mainframes are still kicking arse, so... ;) 2015-07-28T18:51:43Z akkad: apt-get install xemacs ;; for an example 2015-07-28T18:51:46Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:53:11Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T18:53:45Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-28T18:54:33Z Firedancer: What would be good math library that had some simple matrix calculations and could calculate eigenvalues? 2015-07-28T18:55:02Z LiamH: Firedancer: GSLL 2015-07-28T18:56:25Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: that would be いいえ 2015-07-28T18:56:32Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T18:56:42Z Firedancer: LiamH: okay thanks. I have been googling a little bit, but I don't remember hearing about that a lot. 2015-07-28T18:58:14Z ceryo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-28T19:00:03Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: I'm claiming sleep deprivation 2015-07-28T19:01:01Z cluck: akkad: why would you recommend xemacs? that's older than the first prius 2015-07-28T19:01:34Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T19:01:58Z jackdaniel: I feel so dirty, just constructed C preprocessor macro to call cl_format like XXX("filename: ~A~&", filename) 2015-07-28T19:02:18Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:03:35Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:04:25Z Filystyn left #lisp 2015-07-28T19:05:46Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T19:06:41Z pegu joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:06:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:07:20Z akkad: cluck: see previous statement 2015-07-28T19:08:27Z musegarden joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:08:29Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T19:08:32Z clique is now known as BWV989 2015-07-28T19:08:44Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:10:32Z pjb: #define show(x) cl_format(t,#x ": ~A~%",x) ? 2015-07-28T19:11:12Z jackdaniel: not that fast - first argument is number of arguments (cl_format can take any number of arguments) 2015-07-28T19:11:18Z jackdaniel: s/that/so/ 2015-07-28T19:11:20Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T19:11:40Z jackdaniel: so, there is additional macro which counts ##__VA_ARGS__ (number of these) 2015-07-28T19:12:10Z jackdaniel: also, to make it legal statement, it must be wrapped with do { if(__DEBUG) …; } while(0); 2015-07-28T19:13:37Z ben_vulpes: is there a handy way to combine pathname objects? 2015-07-28T19:13:53Z fe[nl]ix: in what sense combine ? 2015-07-28T19:14:00Z |3b|: clhs merge-pathnames 2015-07-28T19:14:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge_.htm 2015-07-28T19:14:14Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:14:19Z jackdaniel: there is also cl-fad, which makes it little more bearable 2015-07-28T19:14:30Z cluck: akkad: nvm :) 2015-07-28T19:15:12Z ben_vulpes: take #p"/home/user/.folder" and #p"thinger.bin" and then f.ex (probe-file (result-of-operation-i-want #p"/home/user/.folder #p"thinger.bin")) 2015-07-28T19:15:30Z BWV989 left #lisp 2015-07-28T19:15:55Z ben_vulpes: perhaps i misread clhs or misused the function, but merge-pathnames didn't do what i naively waanted it to. 2015-07-28T19:15:58Z |3b|: note that #P"/.../.folder" is a file name not a directory name in CL 2015-07-28T19:16:14Z ben_vulpes: ah, requires a trailing '/'? 2015-07-28T19:16:29Z |3b|: right 2015-07-28T19:16:37Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:16:41Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:17:19Z pjb: ben_vulpes: you have to know how to use it. Usually, you combine make-pathnames with make-pathnames. 2015-07-28T19:17:21Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:17:24Z pjb: s/es./e./ 2015-07-28T19:17:34Z KingNato quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-28T19:18:32Z ben_vulpes: combine merge-pathnames with make-pathname? 2015-07-28T19:18:40Z bendiken quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-28T19:18:44Z pjb: What do you want to do? 2015-07-28T19:19:05Z ben_vulpes: have a single reference to a working directory, and glom subdirs and filenames onto that. 2015-07-28T19:19:23Z pjb: what does "glom" mean? 2015-07-28T19:19:50Z ben_vulpes: i fell back to string concatenation, and figured i'd ask around for a better solution. 2015-07-28T19:20:03Z |3b|: (actually i guess it might be implementation dependent how that pathname is parsed, but i think most current implementations behave that way on common filesystems) 2015-07-28T19:20:16Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:20:17Z pjb: ben_vulpes: you can smurf all the smurf you want, if you don't smurf correction, the smurf won't be smufed as it should. 2015-07-28T19:20:31Z ben_vulpes: (+ workdir filename) -> #p"/workdir/filename", more or less. 2015-07-28T19:20:33Z |3b|: ben_vulpes: i think merge-pathnames is what you want, just make sure you have a pathname that names a directory 2015-07-28T19:20:53Z |3b|: (merge-pathnames relative-path base-path) 2015-07-28T19:21:47Z ben_vulpes: gotcha. thanks, |3b| 2015-07-28T19:21:51Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T19:29:06Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-28T19:32:42Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:32:56Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:33:14Z KingNato quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-28T19:33:25Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T19:36:08Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-28T19:37:45Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T19:41:08Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:43:09Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T19:43:23Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-28T19:43:25Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:44:01Z jlarocco_work quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-28T19:47:02Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T19:47:35Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T19:48:51Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-28T19:53:26Z fleaswallow quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T19:54:55Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T19:54:56Z ceryo quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-07-28T21:23:03Z kristof: Are the meaningless conversations over? 2015-07-28T21:25:12Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-28T21:26:22Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-28T21:26:50Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T21:27:54Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-28T21:32:05Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T21:33:40Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-07-28T21:34:08Z duggiefresh quit 2015-07-28T21:35:23Z Fare: jasom: thanks for spreading the "good news" 2015-07-28T21:35:24Z minion: Fare, memo from dim: we need you to upload latest version of asdf in cl-asdf debian package, please, get to me if you have questions! 2015-07-28T21:38:33Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T21:39:26Z jackdaniel: Fare: load-bundle-op affects only compilation, right? 2015-07-28T21:42:17Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-28T21:42:29Z Fare: dim: I already uploaded it to mentors.debian.net ! 2015-07-28T21:42:40Z Fare: jackdaniel, not sure what you mean 2015-07-28T21:43:08Z Fare: load-bundle-op creates a fasl for the entire system and loads it. 2015-07-28T21:43:31Z Fare: but there's a bug somewhere — probably bad shadowing during dlopen 2015-07-28T21:43:33Z jackdaniel: if *load-system-operation* is 'load-bundle-op, then it creates one fasl 2015-07-28T21:44:07Z Fare: yes, per system, if not already up to date 2015-07-28T21:44:19Z Fare: that was the cool feature inherited from asdf-ecl. 2015-07-28T21:46:10Z mrSpec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T21:47:20Z Fare: but something goes wrong when loading the bundle fasl on top of the previously loaded fasl, when doing it in the lisp process that builds and loads the bundle fasl. 2015-07-28T21:47:34Z jackdaniel: yes, I'm investigating issue you posted 2015-07-28T21:47:44Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-28T21:48:45Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-28T21:49:00Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-28T21:49:59Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-28T21:50:44Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-07-28T21:50:56Z dim: hi Fare 2015-07-28T21:50:58Z rpg: Is sharplispers clx still the right CLX to use with SBCL? 2015-07-28T21:51:17Z dim: Fare: did you get my notes about cl-asdf? it's older nowadays in sid than the asdf that comes with sbcl :( 2015-07-28T21:51:22Z dim: oh 2015-07-28T21:51:29Z dim: and I just read your answer 2015-07-28T21:51:30Z rpg: And does it work with Xquartz? Having a little trouble opening display with funky unix socket name. 2015-07-28T21:51:32Z dim: sorry about that 2015-07-28T21:51:36Z dim: time to go sleep then 2015-07-28T21:51:54Z Fare: dim: didn't I already upload it to mentors.debian.net ? 2015-07-28T21:51:59Z dim: no idea 2015-07-28T21:52:00Z Fare: Do I need to upload it again? 2015-07-28T21:52:04Z dim: I'm DM, not DD 2015-07-28T21:52:10Z dim: so I don't think I can tell 2015-07-28T21:52:46Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T21:52:52Z dim: rpg: funky names... did you try to symlink to something easier? 2015-07-28T21:53:05Z Fare: seems to me it was uploaded already! 2015-07-28T21:53:12Z Fare: unlike cl-launch :-( 2015-07-28T21:53:18Z rpg: the funky name is a unix domain socket like this: "/private/tmp/com.apple.launchd.EauNyeZmg1/org.macosforge.xquartz:0" 2015-07-28T21:53:35Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-28T21:53:44Z rpg: I can open that with Allegro, but not with SBCL. 2015-07-28T21:53:50Z dim: Fare: https://packages.debian.org/source/sid/cl-asdf has 2:3.1.5-1 2015-07-28T21:54:03Z dim: is that the right version? (IIRC it is, but I'm too tired to think) 2015-07-28T21:54:08Z Fare: https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=cl-asdf&searchon=names&suite=unstable§ion=all 2015-07-28T21:54:22Z Fare: that's the latest asdf indeed! 2015-07-28T21:54:33Z dim: thanks for confirming Fare! 2015-07-28T21:54:38Z Fare: np 2015-07-28T21:55:01Z dim: did you manage to use ql-to-deb finally? 2015-07-28T21:55:19Z dim: as I've only even been the only user... we might have some work on usability still 2015-07-28T21:56:12Z Fare: what's the process? Send you a pull request? 2015-07-28T21:56:35Z dim: ql-to-deb? sure, if you have a patch, please do that 2015-07-28T21:56:51Z dim: meantime, I'm off to bed 2015-07-28T21:57:12Z Fare: I mean, for new packages? 2015-07-28T21:58:16Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T21:59:36Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-28T22:00:14Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-28T22:02:20Z Fare: jackdaniel, thanks a lot! 2015-07-28T22:02:32Z rpg: Looks like XLIB:DISPLAY-CONNECT wants a protocol argument (or the protocol to be somehow otherwise supplied), but there's no way for me to provide it. OPEN-DISPLAY squelches the protocol argument. 2015-07-28T22:06:18Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-28T22:07:05Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-28T22:07:14Z PuercoPop: rpg: I use get-default-display which is not exported but should be imho 2015-07-28T22:08:21Z Fare: rpg, what is next with asdf? 2015-07-28T22:08:21Z PuercoPop: eclispe basically reimplements it and stumpwm does so poorly 2015-07-28T22:08:32Z rpg: PuercoPop: that doesn't work for me for some reason. There's open-default-display exported, but it doesn't work. 2015-07-28T22:08:54Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-28T22:10:16Z rpg: PuercoPop: I get this error "Name service error in "gethostbyname": 1 (Unknown host)" looks to me like it doesn't occur to CLX that we could be connecting to a Unix, instead of a TCP socket. 2015-07-28T22:10:27Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-07-28T22:10:47Z rpg: that's from (xlib:open-default-display) 2015-07-28T22:11:17Z rpg: Fare: I'm willing to see other improvements, but the thing that I'm most excited by is the test-op. 2015-07-28T22:11:42Z rpg: I should post the example of the test-op we did for 5AM and see if it provides a reasonable basis for implementations. 2015-07-28T22:11:46Z gendl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-28T22:11:46Z gendl__ is now known as gendl 2015-07-28T22:12:02Z Fare: rpg: current branches are minimakefile, obsolete-function-warnings, syntax-control 2015-07-28T22:12:25Z Fare: for test-op, there are so many ways it could be done... I don't even remember what was the latest proposal. 2015-07-28T22:12:26Z rpg: syntax-control I need to test again. 2015-07-28T22:12:35Z Fare: syntax-control probably needs to be re-done. 2015-07-28T22:12:54Z Fare: although, figuring out what didn't work is probably important 2015-07-28T22:13:14Z rpg: For test-op what we have done is add a special pair of conditions for use with 5AM: one for when the number of tests run is unexpected, and one if a test or tests fails. 2015-07-28T22:13:18Z Fare: also, cl-syntax should replace named-readtables by doing named-readtables *and* handling of pretty-printing. 2015-07-28T22:13:42Z rpg: This gets around the problem of ASDF not returning a value from operating 2015-07-28T22:14:24Z rpg: pretty printing is such a morass... 2015-07-28T22:14:27Z Fare: yes, signaling an error has "always" been the protocol. What will be new? Just top-level condition classes? 2015-07-28T22:14:57Z Fare: I believe the syntax-control branch doesn't handle pretty printing correctly at this time. 2015-07-28T22:15:01Z rpg: We can add top-level condition-classes and I suppose some contribs for different test libraries. 2015-07-28T22:15:01Z papachan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-28T22:15:08Z Fare: but readtable is probably more urgent. 2015-07-28T22:15:39Z Fare: Do we need contribs? Or just for these test libraries to be updated? 2015-07-28T22:15:56Z Fare: I was thinking of a test-report-op that creates a test-report 2015-07-28T22:16:09Z Fare: and test-op that signals a condition if the test-report isn't perfect. 2015-07-28T22:16:41Z Fare: thus you don't need to re-run tests that don't have any modified dependencies. 2015-07-28T22:16:56Z Fare: which combined with fine-grained dependencies via package-inferred-system can be nice. 2015-07-28T22:18:00Z PuercoPop: rpg: get-default-display's docstring has a comment about unix being :local but I'm unclear if that means it is not supported or ta 2015-07-28T22:18:15Z PuercoPop: that it is called local. 2015-07-28T22:19:23Z rpg: PuercoPop: It looks like the display-opening functions should be supplying :local as protocol automagically but open-default-display passes ':protocol :||' wtf? 2015-07-28T22:20:55Z rpg: get-default-display returns this: ("private/tmp/com.apple.launchd.EauNyeZmg1/org.macosforge.xquartz" 0 0 :||) 2015-07-28T22:21:06Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T22:21:18Z rpg: that last thing seems to be what it thinks the protocol is. 2015-07-28T22:21:51Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-07-28T22:22:00Z Fare: rpg: and --- can I merge minimakefile into master? obsolete-function-warnings? once the patch is stable, it's so much nicer to remove the last kinks in master rather than keep merging over and over again. 2015-07-28T22:22:35Z rpg: Fare: Sigh. The problem with minimakefile is that there's no test suite and the first time I know it's broken is when it blows up in my face. 2015-07-28T22:22:37Z Fare: and — shall I bump the version to 3.2.0.0 ? 2015-07-28T22:22:52Z PuercoPop: Yes, I normally get local but If I pass something like tcp:0 I get :internet. What are you passing to get-default-display to get :||? It looks like a bug 2015-07-28T22:23:00Z Fare: well, in a sense the whole asdf test suite is the test suite for the test suite. 2015-07-28T22:23:19Z Fare: and it was working on windows as well as linux. 2015-07-28T22:23:31Z rpg: Fare: There's no way for me to test RUN and functions like that, and they are a chain of extremely opaque, terse macros. 2015-07-28T22:23:34Z Fare: it's not like the current shell infrastructure is great 2015-07-28T22:23:48Z rpg: But the current shell infrastructure has a man page. 2015-07-28T22:23:56Z Fare: compare with debugging intricate shell functions 2015-07-28T22:24:13Z Fare: you mean testing inferior-shell:run ? 2015-07-28T22:24:22Z rpg: But the intricate shell functions are already debugged. The minimakefile stuff is all untested except on your machine. 2015-07-28T22:24:34Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-28T22:24:44Z rpg: And the first time I find out it's broken is when I try to do something like make a tarball.... 2015-07-28T22:24:48Z Fare: well, ok, two machines and a windows vm. 2015-07-28T22:24:59Z rpg: Yes, but your PATH. 2015-07-28T22:25:17Z Fare: but thanks to your git modules, the PATH doesn't matter anymore 2015-07-28T22:25:31Z Fare: that was very true before git modules. 2015-07-28T22:25:44Z Fare: not so much since 2015-07-28T22:26:53Z Fare: and for the record — I've been using the minimakefile branch to build the tarballs, because I was tired of backporting fixes to master. 2015-07-28T22:27:21Z Fare: I could probably backport the tarball fixes to bin/asdf-builder 2015-07-28T22:28:08Z rpg: PuercoPop: I just invoke (get-default-display) 2015-07-28T22:28:13Z Fare: I already backported some of them... not enough, it seems. 2015-07-28T22:28:19Z rpg: Fare: to be honest the problem is that ext/inferior-shell/run.lisp makes me want to scream. 2015-07-28T22:29:25Z rpg: It's almost completely uncontaminated by documentation, and has a large number of run functions that have subtly different meanings. 2015-07-28T22:30:12Z rpg: RUN/NIL does "run command CMD". RUN does "run command CMD". I just don't want to have to figure out what happens when RUN/NIL goes wrong. 2015-07-28T22:30:46Z Fare: depends what "goes wrong" means. But by default, it will signal an error unless the process terminates with a 0 status. 2015-07-28T22:31:02Z Fare: run/nil means "Throw away the stdout and stderr" 2015-07-28T22:31:29Z PuercoPop: and what is your DISPLAY variable? 2015-07-28T22:31:31Z rpg: but I have to ask you to find out what run/nil means. 2015-07-28T22:31:39Z rpg: It should really be documented. 2015-07-28T22:31:48Z brpocock quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T22:31:48Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T22:32:31Z rpg: And then I have to understand what a process-spec is, and so on, and so on. Bash is almost the paradigm bad programming language, but at least it's one I sort of know. 2015-07-28T22:33:07Z rpg: PuercoPop: It's /private/tmp/com.apple.launchd.EauNyeZmg1/org.macosforge.xquartz:0 2015-07-28T22:33:33Z rpg: PuercoPop: somehow, goodness only knows, Allegro manages to make sense out of that. 2015-07-28T22:34:39Z rpg: Fare: I understand the appeal of developing a new scripting language; it's just not what I thought I was signing up for when I agreed to do ASDF maintenance. 2015-07-28T22:36:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T22:37:36Z rpg: As things stand today, I cannot write a shell script snippet for the tools in the minimakefile. So if I want to make a tarball it's... what? two days of work to figure out this scripting environment? I don't really want to do that. At the end of those days AFAICT there is nothing I couldn't have done faster before. So I nead a sales pitch for why minimakefile isn't just making more work for me. 2015-07-28T22:37:56Z Fare works on improving the docstrings on those functions. 2015-07-28T22:39:36Z Fare: well, it's not harder to cargo-cult the existing infrastructure than the shell infrastructure. It's much easier to maintain, and it gives much better error messages for reproducibility's sake than the current shell infrastructure 2015-07-28T22:39:46Z PuercoPop: I'm pretty sure problem is with this line (slash-i (or (position #\/ name) -1)) in get-default-display as "/" is used to separate protocol from hostname 2015-07-28T22:40:08Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-28T22:40:09Z rpg: I think part of the problem is that we haven't gotten to the place where the syntax is terse and clean and suited to scripting yet. It's still got a bit of the feel of writing code that talks to a database. I.e., now I have to know a programming language AND I have to know SQL. 2015-07-28T22:40:15Z Fare: as in, the "how to reproduce the error" message is extracted from the same command as the actual test 2015-07-28T22:40:16Z rpg: PuercoPop: that sounds right to me, too. 2015-07-28T22:40:33Z Fare: instead of being faked. 2015-07-28T22:41:02Z rpg: PuercoPop: Looks like no one expected the display name to be a unix socket name that's an absolute pathname. 2015-07-28T22:42:06Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-28T22:42:08Z PuercoPop: could you try running this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/152557 2015-07-28T22:42:40Z PuercoPop: it is lifted from eclispe, but it is not properly separated as it tries to conenct to the host so it errors out on my machine 2015-07-28T22:43:10Z PuercoPop: but it doesn't look for #\/ so it won't trip with the same problem 2015-07-28T22:44:17Z rpg: PuercoPop: still errors out with the call to gethostbyname 2015-07-28T22:44:37Z rpg: It's treating the socket name as if it's a host name. 2015-07-28T22:44:49Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-28T22:45:24Z rpg: Seems like I need to detect the unix socket specifier and infer from that that the hostname is "" or "Unix" 2015-07-28T22:46:08Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T22:47:28Z rpg: PuercoPop: I think the issue is that we need to detect the initial "/" and infer from that that there's no port, and that the display is a socket name. I do not know enough to know what's a reasonable assumption about a display variable. Need to read me some more X11 docs. :-/ 2015-07-28T22:47:54Z rpg: PuercoPop, Fare: I'm afraid I need to go -- it's dinner time and I'm parking in some of my co-workers. Have to pack up. 2015-07-28T22:47:58Z rpg: Thanks to both of you. 2015-07-28T22:48:36Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2015-07-28T22:48:44Z rpg_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-28T22:49:27Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-28T22:49:54Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-28T22:50:12Z yenda- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-28T22:51:34Z PuercoPop: from man 7 X it appears the The format for display is much simpler. hostname:displaynumber.screennumber 2015-07-28T22:52:36Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-28T22:56:18Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-28T22:56:40Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-28T22:57:10Z AjaxCrixum joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:01:15Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:01:47Z AjaxCrixum: Where can I see source code for simple programs written in Lisp (CL)? 2015-07-28T23:02:03Z AjaxCrixum: I can't find anything atm. 2015-07-28T23:02:26Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-28T23:04:30Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:04:47Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:06:07Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:08:11Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:10:26Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:11:32Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-07-28T23:14:04Z aeth: AjaxCrixum: if they're on Github just search the project name on Github. Otherwise, it gets a bit more complicated. If they're in Quicklisp (as a library) there's a source.txt for each project that will say where it is on the Internet. https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects 2015-07-28T23:14:26Z aeth: Not every library is simple, but quite a few are so that's probably the best way to see simple Lisp programs actually in use. 2015-07-28T23:15:24Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T23:16:10Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:16:13Z aeth: It can be annoying, though, because you will quickly spot people writing things in unusual ways if you read through enough libraries. 2015-07-28T23:16:16Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:16:22Z akkad: uiop gets corrupt and requires removing its directory and redownloading. https://gist.github.com/697443d0a7c6e48bb87b 2015-07-28T23:16:51Z AjaxCrixum: Is this book titled "Land of Lisp" a good introduction to Common Lisp, compared to "Practical Common Lisp"? 2015-07-28T23:18:48Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:18:50Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2015-07-28T23:19:41Z aeth: The author has a short Lisp tutorial online so you can probably try that to see if you like Land of Lisp. 2015-07-28T23:19:53Z k-stz: AjaxCrixum: i vouch for pcl as an introduction, teaches you cl basics very fast 2015-07-28T23:19:59Z aeth: http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 2015-07-28T23:20:19Z aeth: The advantage of Practical Common Lisp is that the book's available online. It's a good reference. 2015-07-28T23:20:51Z k-stz: is land of lisp pretty much an extended version of "casting spels"? 2015-07-28T23:21:06Z aeth: k-stz: I don't yet have the book so I don't know 2015-07-28T23:22:06Z aeth: I think it is, based on the description in casting.html 2015-07-28T23:22:17Z aeth: "Watch out for my new Super Fantastic Expanded Lisp Comic Book/Text Book from No Starch Press this Summer!" 2015-07-28T23:22:30Z aeth: At the very least, it's probably in the same style 2015-07-28T23:23:24Z k-stz: "casting spels" was ok but I remember I didn't understand the buzz the author was making about the defspel. I like his humor and the comics are fun, but I still need to find someone it helped 2015-07-28T23:24:29Z badkins quit 2015-07-28T23:24:38Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:25:14Z cluck quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:26:06Z aeth: Idk. The most useful for me were the SICP videos (even though the video quality is so terrible) 2015-07-28T23:26:34Z aeth: That's Scheme, though 2015-07-28T23:26:50Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-28T23:27:19Z k-stz: who would argue sicp being a bad introduction to common lisp 2015-07-28T23:27:35Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:28:03Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:28:45Z akkad: yeah... it's not a money making racket or anything 2015-07-28T23:29:05Z arrsim quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:29:07Z AjaxCrixum left #lisp 2015-07-28T23:30:15Z k-stz: yes the videos teach principles and are inspirational. a big win 2015-07-28T23:31:34Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:31:44Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T23:31:57Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:33:37Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:34:38Z arrsim joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:37:25Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-28T23:38:30Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:39:35Z arrsim quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:40:00Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:42:15Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:43:09Z arrsim joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:43:47Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:50:30Z aeth: Speaking of the SICP videos, good-enough? is the best procedure name ever 2015-07-28T23:52:57Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-28T23:55:46Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-28T23:57:20Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:06:58Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:07:23Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-29T00:08:29Z DataLinkDroid quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T00:08:50Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:09:53Z DataLinkDroid quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T00:15:32Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-29T00:19:23Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:23:01Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-07-29T00:26:44Z jasom: aeth: it should be good-enough-p :P 2015-07-29T00:31:47Z CLiQCmd joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:33:57Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:36:27Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:38:17Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-29T00:38:48Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:42:01Z aeth: The biggest flaw with Common Lisp is probably its naming conventions and certain APIs that are needed for backwards compatability to the 1970s and earlier 2015-07-29T00:42:39Z pillton: aeth: What does common in Common Lisp represent? 2015-07-29T00:42:49Z aeth: My favorite example of backwards compatability as a flaw is (nth index list) vs. (elt sequence index) 2015-07-29T00:43:51Z aeth: it prevents changing something from a list to a vector being as simple as it could be (just a find and replace if they had the same order) 2015-07-29T00:45:07Z pillton: That isn't an argument. If your algorithm is specified for sequences, why would you use NTH? 2015-07-29T00:47:00Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:49:09Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:49:14Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:49:22Z quazimod2 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:54:24Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-29T00:54:52Z jeremyheiler joined #lisp 2015-07-29T00:57:07Z CLiQCmd left #lisp 2015-07-29T00:57:46Z quazimod1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-29T01:01:53Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T01:02:11Z lokulin quit (Changing host) 2015-07-29T01:02:11Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:04:04Z leafybasil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T01:04:09Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T01:04:09Z quazimod2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T01:04:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:04:44Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-29T01:05:18Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:06:26Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:09:17Z lokulin quit (Quit: bye!) 2015-07-29T01:12:27Z aap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T01:12:35Z aap joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:14:38Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-29T01:17:37Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:18:50Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:18:55Z warweasle left #lisp 2015-07-29T01:21:42Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:23:44Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-29T01:24:53Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-29T01:31:28Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:39:01Z pinterface joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:39:26Z pinterface1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T01:43:36Z ToeTag: If I want to use the hyperspec *in* emacs, rather than my firefox, is the preferred way to do that by using some kind of text browser inside of emacs? 2015-07-29T01:44:25Z ToeTag: text-based web browser*** 2015-07-29T01:44:43Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:45:03Z nyef: I don't know about "preferred", but it's probably worth a try. 2015-07-29T01:45:25Z ToeTag: nyef, do you just use the browser? 2015-07-29T01:45:46Z nyef: I just use firefox. 2015-07-29T01:46:07Z nyef: On the other hand, I may not be the best exemplar of what to do. 2015-07-29T01:46:30Z ToeTag: no prob 2015-07-29T01:46:32Z ToeTag: thanks 2015-07-29T01:48:10Z jeremyheiler: ToeTag: i just figured this out, actually (setq browse-url-browser-function #'w3m-browse-url) 2015-07-29T01:48:46Z jeremyheiler: assuming you ahve w3m, and the w3m emacs package installed 2015-07-29T01:48:56Z jeremyheiler: C-c C-d h will open it up in a new buffer for you 2015-07-29T01:49:03Z ToeTag: jeremyheiler, cool - was just going to ask 2015-07-29T01:49:04Z ToeTag: thank you 2015-07-29T01:51:17Z jeremyheiler: ToeTag: oh, using #'eww-browse-url if you're on emacs 24 2015-07-29T01:51:30Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T01:51:44Z jeremyheiler: 24.4 2015-07-29T01:51:52Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:52:19Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2015-07-29T01:52:35Z ToeTag: 24.3.1 for me 2015-07-29T01:52:41Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:52:42Z ToeTag: 'eww...is the new function name in 24? 2015-07-29T01:52:45Z ToeTag: 24.4* 2015-07-29T01:53:29Z jeremyheiler: eww is a built in web browser that was relased in 24.4 2015-07-29T01:53:36Z ToeTag: awesome 2015-07-29T01:53:42Z jeremyheiler: you can always use w3m if you want, tho, but it's an external dependency 2015-07-29T01:53:45Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-07-29T01:53:52Z ToeTag: great thanks 2015-07-29T01:54:47Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-29T01:55:23Z ToeTag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-29T01:58:34Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-07-29T02:01:09Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-29T02:04:50Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-29T02:11:08Z paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-29T02:11:51Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T02:15:01Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T02:17:40Z cyphase quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-07-29T02:24:19Z harish joined #lisp 2015-07-29T02:35:01Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-29T02:35:06Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-29T02:35:22Z warweasle: qqq 2015-07-29T02:39:45Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-29T02:40:10Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T02:43:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T02:48:48Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T02:50:08Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-07-29T02:53:46Z warweasle quit (Quit: Got done with what I wanted to do today.) 2015-07-29T03:08:24Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-07-29T03:11:22Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T03:11:38Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-07-29T03:20:10Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T03:31:53Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-29T03:36:24Z gabot joined #lisp 2015-07-29T03:38:41Z lisp-noob joined #lisp 2015-07-29T03:38:46Z lisp-noob quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T03:43:36Z Guest31577 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T03:45:25Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-29T03:45:27Z pjb: minion: memo for AjaxCrixum: you may find the source of an ircbot asking it for it. For example, /msg botihn sources 2015-07-29T03:45:27Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell AjaxCrixum when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-29T03:47:21Z Guest31577 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-29T03:48:04Z pjb: aeth: anyways, you should NEVER use directly operators from the CL package. For at least two reasons: 1- most of them are not generic functions, so you definitely want to define generic functions and method to wrap over them. 2- you cannot TRACE functions in the CL package. Therefore you should write your own wrapper functions over all the functions in CL, so you may trace your own functions. 2015-07-29T03:48:28Z pjb: aeth: in consequences, you can correct all the flaws such as elt/nth. 2015-07-29T03:50:15Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-29T03:51:10Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-29T03:52:59Z aeth: pjb: I think elt is a generic, I could be wrong 2015-07-29T03:53:26Z aeth: Too bad there isn't an nthcdr equivalent for elt because there are some list-like structures and nthcdr, nth, etc. are only allowed on lists 2015-07-29T03:53:41Z Seeq joined #lisp 2015-07-29T03:53:58Z nyef: Oddly, I can think of an approximate equivalent of nthcdr for use on vectors. 2015-07-29T03:55:12Z theos: what is it? 2015-07-29T03:55:30Z aeth: s/there isn't/I wasted an hour trying to find one the other day and personally couldn't find it/ 2015-07-29T03:57:00Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-29T03:57:14Z pjb: aeth: why do you try to think? just use clhs! 2015-07-29T03:57:17Z pjb: clhs elt 2015-07-29T03:57:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_elt.htm 2015-07-29T03:57:33Z aeth: pjb: right it's not in see also 2015-07-29T03:57:35Z pjb: theos: subseq. 2015-07-29T03:57:42Z aeth: pjb: nth has nthcdr in its see also 2015-07-29T03:57:57Z theos: clhs subseq 2015-07-29T03:57:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 2015-07-29T03:58:25Z pjb: aeth: don't look "See also". Look THE FIRST WORD! 2015-07-29T03:58:35Z aeth: subseq is probably good-enough, but it's not quite the same thing. 2015-07-29T03:58:46Z pjb: aeth: you can also use NSUBSEQ. 2015-07-29T03:58:57Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:nsubseq 2015-07-29T03:59:13Z aeth: basically I wanted to build a lazy data structure for cons cells / lists because clazy disappoints me. 2015-07-29T03:59:31Z aeth: clazy doesn't even support cadr, elt, nth, etc. 2015-07-29T03:59:37Z aeth: for the lazy list 2015-07-29T04:00:08Z pjb: aeth: yes. When doing this kind of things, very quickly you have to go full metalinguistic, ie. you have to re-implement your lisp or your CL. 2015-07-29T04:00:27Z pjb: aeth: Of course, nowadays you also have the alternative to just patch a free implementation. 2015-07-29T04:01:01Z pjb: But if you want instead to provide it as a conforming library, they you have to go metalinguistic and reimplement CL. 2015-07-29T04:01:23Z aeth: Well, clazy chooses to reimplement the Lisp or the CL by having a lazily macro, but it doesn't support much and so you get all sorts of errors when you run the code because you're never quite sure what it supports the first time you try it. (It does e.g. support car, cdr, etc.) 2015-07-29T04:01:32Z aeth: Also I am guessing because of this you can't mix and match regular and lazy lists. 2015-07-29T04:01:53Z pjb: aeth: There's is no CL:LAZILY; therefore it does not reimplement CL. 2015-07-29T04:01:55Z aeth: The approach I'd choose is just write a generic function that behaves differently depending on the type 2015-07-29T04:02:19Z pjb: If it had a LAZY:CAR, LAZY:NTH, LAZY:DEFUN, LAZY:LAMBDA and 970 other definitions, then perhaps. 2015-07-29T04:02:29Z aeth: pjb: In clazy, you basically are supposed to code regular CL within a LAZILY macro. 2015-07-29T04:02:36Z aeth: So it's a fake CAR, a fake CDR, a fake LIST, etc. 2015-07-29T04:02:44Z aeth: Without actually exporting CAR, CDR, LIST, etc. 2015-07-29T04:03:03Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:03:15Z aeth: It's an interesting idea, but not enough of CL is reimplemented for it to be convenient. 2015-07-29T04:03:16Z pjb: This is why it doesn't work. This is what I'm explaining to you. If you want it to work as you want, you have to re-implement CL! 2015-07-29T04:03:36Z aeth: oh? 2015-07-29T04:03:43Z nyef: LAZY:BUM ? 2015-07-29T04:03:54Z nyef: LAZY:SLACKER ? 2015-07-29T04:03:54Z aeth: No, CL is object oriented. This is a perfect case for Lisp's style of OOP. 2015-07-29T04:04:16Z pjb: Delirium is not on topic here. Try #lispcafe. 2015-07-29T04:04:19Z aeth: With generics, you can have the same generic function handle different data structures differently. 2015-07-29T04:04:42Z aeth: So if you want to write some new data structures, you can just write some generics 2015-07-29T04:04:50Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T04:05:11Z Guest31577 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:05:33Z rpg: aeth: to be more fussy: if you want some new kinds of data structure, you just write new methods for existing (and new) generic functions. 2015-07-29T04:05:49Z aeth: rpg: oops, you're right. 2015-07-29T04:05:58Z aeth: I guess I'd be more careful on another medium other than IRC. 2015-07-29T04:06:12Z aeth: It's harder to think before I write on IRC, and impossible to edit :-p 2015-07-29T04:06:29Z aeth: If something's already generic, no need to write a new generic 2015-07-29T04:06:31Z rpg: Just mentioned this to emphasize the diff b/w generic functions and the more conventional "classes have methods" model. 2015-07-29T04:07:03Z aeth: You're absolutely correct. This makes data structures in CL a lot better to use, at least in theory. 2015-07-29T04:08:43Z rpg: by contrast, I have been working on (in) a large Java program, and I've been finding it's a real nuisance to guess *where* the code you want lives, esp. when a function conceptually seems to partake of two objects sort of the same. 2015-07-29T04:09:02Z pjb: aeth: to go #lispcafe. There it's acceptable to type drunk. 2015-07-29T04:10:22Z pjb: rpg: but do you have M-. in java IDE? 2015-07-29T04:10:41Z pjb: I mean, typing M-. on a method and getting the list of all the methods defined on that generic function is quite nice. 2015-07-29T04:11:45Z rpg: pjb: yes, but only if you know the name. If you know that a function that computes f(X,Y) must exist, but you don't know whether it's defined on X or Y and which superclass thereof. Nightmarish. 2015-07-29T04:12:33Z rpg is exhausted.... good night all. 2015-07-29T04:12:39Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-29T04:13:05Z gabot joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:18:14Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:18:32Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:18:39Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-29T04:21:52Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-29T04:22:23Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:27:01Z Guest31577 quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-07-29T04:27:19Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-07-29T04:27:51Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2015-07-29T04:28:20Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:29:36Z akkad: with something like cl-fad:walk-direcetory which takes a function, what is the proper form for using bordeaux-thread:make-thread there? I seem to be stuck on #'(lambda (x) vs #'(bordeaux-threads:make-thread (somefunction. 2015-07-29T04:32:15Z loke: akkad: MAKE-THREAD takes a function desirnator 2015-07-29T04:32:18Z loke: I.e. something funcallable 2015-07-29T04:34:17Z akkad: so (walk-directory *somedir* #'(lambda (x) (bordeaux-thread:make-thread #'(lambda (x) #'process-file )))) 2015-07-29T04:34:23Z akkad: nvm confusing myself. thank 2015-07-29T04:35:28Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:35:41Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:36:10Z keen__________32 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T04:36:31Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-29T04:36:51Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T04:37:42Z keen__________32 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:37:59Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-29T04:38:11Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:41:02Z loke: akkad: You might want to consider lparallel here 2015-07-29T04:41:28Z akkad: yeah I use pcall normall 2015-07-29T04:41:31Z akkad: normally 2015-07-29T04:41:41Z akkad: otherwise 20k threads :-/ 2015-07-29T04:43:19Z j0ni quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-29T04:50:18Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T04:51:20Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:51:34Z j0ni joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:53:00Z drmeister: Hi beach 2015-07-29T04:54:36Z les quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-29T04:54:47Z les joined #lisp 2015-07-29T04:57:58Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-29T04:59:27Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-29T05:00:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T05:01:40Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T05:02:11Z cazalia joined #lisp 2015-07-29T05:02:29Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-29T05:02:53Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-29T05:03:46Z cazalia: What is a Lisp ASDF system? As in: "... a reference manual generator for Common Lisp. It extracts and formats documentation from ASDF systems." 2015-07-29T05:04:38Z p_l: cazalia: ASDF is a system definicition facility, similar to tools like Make 2015-07-29T05:05:39Z cazalia: p_l: got it. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-29T07:21:28Z akkad: is there a pattern with ccl/sbcl where you wait around to exit the main thread until the other threads haved finished? odd having lisp exit while there are active threads 2015-07-29T07:21:42Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-29T07:22:28Z Seeq joined #lisp 2015-07-29T07:23:56Z jackdaniel: akkad: (mapcar #'bt:join-thread (bt:allthreads)) 2015-07-29T07:24:03Z akkad: :D 2015-07-29T07:24:05Z jackdaniel: akkad: (mapcar #'bt:join-thread (bt:all-threads)) ° 2015-07-29T07:24:19Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-07-29T07:24:28Z Quadrescence: mapc* 2015-07-29T07:24:32Z Quadrescence: not mapcar 2015-07-29T07:25:06Z jackdaniel: even better, yes 2015-07-29T07:26:51Z cosmicexplorer joined #lisp 2015-07-29T07:27:46Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T07:29:59Z akkad: so (mapc #'bordeaux-threads:join-thread (bordeaux-threads:all-threads)) 2015-07-29T07:30:46Z jackdaniel: this should wait for all threads stopping, yes 2015-07-29T07:31:04Z akkad: thanks 2015-07-29T07:31:05Z jackdaniel: note however, that if slime has some infinite thread, then it won't end 2015-07-29T07:31:17Z akkad: yeah. noticed oddness there 2015-07-29T07:31:30Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T07:31:31Z jackdaniel: so instead of all-threads, you can grab each thread you create into separate list 2015-07-29T07:31:45Z jackdaniel: *all-akkad-threads* , and use this instead 2015-07-29T07:31:48Z akkad: good point 2015-07-29T07:32:06Z akkad: assign what is emitted from make-thread. 2015-07-29T07:32:10Z jackdaniel: exactly 2015-07-29T07:34:40Z loke: akkad: I' 2015-07-29T07:35:18Z loke: akkad: I'd never expect your mapc over all-threads to ever return. The thread that is doing the joining will never end 2015-07-29T07:35:29Z loke: At the very least you want to filter that one out. 2015-07-29T07:37:24Z jackdaniel: (let ((*all-threads* (copy-list *all-threads*))) …) 2015-07-29T07:38:04Z summersault quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-29T07:38:29Z akkad: ahh 2015-07-29T07:39:42Z jackdaniel: hm, anyway it's best to just gather threads you spawned in list to avoid weird cludges like this 2015-07-29T07:39:56Z cataska_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T07:40:04Z akkad: (append *mythreads* (bordeaux-threads:make-thread '#(lambda () (sleep 200)))) 2015-07-29T07:41:07Z whartung joined #lisp 2015-07-29T07:41:40Z Quadrescence: '#(lambda ??? 2015-07-29T07:41:47Z Quadrescence: i'm super drunk and i even know that doesn't make sense 2015-07-29T07:42:17Z jackdaniel: it's typo for sure 2015-07-29T07:42:20Z jackdaniel: #'(lambda …) 2015-07-29T07:42:30Z Quadrescence: not a false fact 2015-07-29T07:42:39Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-29T07:42:47Z jackdaniel: btw, your inner parses has to be really hardcoded, if you catch that up when drunk :D 2015-07-29T07:42:53Z jackdaniel: s/prases/parser/ 2015-07-29T07:42:59Z Quadrescence: it is wgat it is 2015-07-29T07:43:03Z Quadrescence: alwauys be tru to urself 2015-07-29T07:43:43Z cataska_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T07:44:12Z cataska joined #lisp 2015-07-29T07:44:34Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-29T07:47:24Z akkad: hmm can't work out the syntax. wine and sleep 2015-07-29T07:47:50Z jackdaniel: akkad: why append ? it's non destructive 2015-07-29T07:47:52Z jackdaniel: maybe push? 2015-07-29T07:48:04Z jackdaniel: and 200s is > 3min 2015-07-29T07:48:20Z jackdaniel: for tests 10s should do 2015-07-29T07:49:13Z akkad: there we go 2015-07-29T07:49:39Z akkad: knowing which funcitons are pre/post/in fix 2015-07-29T07:49:54Z Firedancer: Do you need to do something so that quicklisp finds local-project codes? I tried yesterday installation instructions for Matlisp where the matlisp git cloned folder is symbolically linked as local-projects folder into quicklisp folder, but ql didn't seem to find it at all when trying to invoke ql:quickload 2015-07-29T07:50:20Z jackdaniel: Firedancer: you may refresh list with (ql:register-local-projects) 2015-07-29T07:50:39Z Firedancer: aaa okay, thanks jackdaniel 2015-07-29T07:50:44Z jackdaniel: np 2015-07-29T07:52:06Z akkad: I thought (push (bordeaux-threads:make-thread (sleep 10) ) *mythreads*) would be async in the repl 2015-07-29T07:52:46Z akkad: e.g. sleep 100 & 2015-07-29T07:53:22Z jackdaniel: no, you have to give it a function, make-thread is a function 2015-07-29T07:53:29Z jackdaniel: so it evaluates it's arguments 2015-07-29T07:54:03Z jackdaniel: so #'(lambda () (sleep 3) (print "done")) 2015-07-29T07:54:49Z Quadrescence: dont even need the #' 2015-07-29T07:54:50Z Quadrescence: just clutters 2015-07-29T07:55:23Z jackdaniel: it shows, it's a function. 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? 2015-07-29T08:50:09Z loz: afaik in lisp-2 symbol can have multiple values and this is kinda cool 2015-07-29T08:50:33Z jackdaniel: lisp-n you mean :) 2015-07-29T08:50:42Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-29T08:50:53Z jackdaniel: bindings, special variables, functions, classes … 2015-07-29T08:51:04Z loz: ye, lisp-2 just looks more commonly used 2015-07-29T08:51:05Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-29T08:51:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-29T08:51:24Z loz: jackdaniel: wait, how does it affects all these? 2015-07-29T08:51:56Z jackdaniel: lisp-X means, that there is X separate namespaces 2015-07-29T08:52:21Z jackdaniel: so lisp-2 describes sytem, where functions and bindings are in separate namespaces 2015-07-29T08:52:42Z jackdaniel: but common lisp has more of them, at least that's my understanding of whole lisp-n thing 2015-07-29T08:53:38Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-07-29T08:53:48Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-29T08:53:54Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-29T08:55:02Z loz: jackdaniel: i suppose there should be symbol-class function then 2015-07-29T08:57:12Z jackdaniel: spec says, there isn't 2015-07-29T08:57:47Z jackdaniel: you have find-class for that 2015-07-29T08:57:51Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-07-29T09:00:24Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-29T09:00:33Z jackc- quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-29T09:00:59Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T09:02:18Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T09:03:55Z jackc- joined #lisp 2015-07-29T09:04:16Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-29T09:04:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T09:05:10Z gensym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-29T09:05:34Z gensym joined #lisp 2015-07-29T09:06:01Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T09:06:12Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-29T09:07:08Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-29T09:07:54Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T09:11:48Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-29T09:13:20Z przl joined #lisp 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connection) 2015-07-29T12:04:54Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:09:22Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:10:38Z edgar-rft: loz: Common Lisp has no keyboard macros. I don't understand what you're asking for. 2015-07-29T12:11:04Z Cymew: Code examples? 2015-07-29T12:11:04Z loz: hah, sorry, was asking about elisp, wrong channel =) 2015-07-29T12:11:09Z Cymew: ah 2015-07-29T12:13:13Z mercwithamouth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T12:13:58Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:15:20Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-29T12:15:59Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:18:08Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:19:15Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-29T12:23:48Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-29T12:26:22Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-29T12:26:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:31:10Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T12:31:34Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-29T12:32:09Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:33:59Z knobo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-29T12:35:05Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:36:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:38:03Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:39:59Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:42:00Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-29T12:43:55Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-29T12:44:48Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-29T12:45:49Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:45:52Z nyef_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:47:33Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:47:54Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-29T12:48:11Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:49:59Z theos: TIL LOGO was a dialect of LISP! thats the first language i learned... holy caw! 2015-07-29T12:51:05Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:51:09Z theos goes into shock for a few minutes. brb 2015-07-29T12:51:34Z H4ns: i understand, it must be a shaking experience 2015-07-29T12:53:05Z theos: very shaking! it means that i have been a lisper since grade 4... 2015-07-29T12:53:51Z H4ns: write that into your resume! 2015-07-29T12:55:12Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-29T12:55:13Z eudoxia: heh, i played with the turtle thing in the computers at school 2015-07-29T12:55:31Z eudoxia: we never did any actual coding though, just moved it around with regular commands 2015-07-29T12:55:33Z theos: respect for lisp! 2015-07-29T12:56:08Z jcmdln joined #lisp 2015-07-29T12:56:42Z theos made funny objects with logo! complex ones 2015-07-29T12:57:14Z jackdaniel: any reference it's lisp? 2015-07-29T12:57:21Z diginet quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-29T12:57:36Z jcmdln quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T12:57:37Z H4ns: jackdaniel: wikipedia says it, so it must be true 2015-07-29T12:58:11Z theos: it was made by daniel bobrow 2015-07-29T12:59:03Z jackdaniel: I mean - logo is cool and I liked it when in school, turtle lisp had even polish translation of commands, but lisp? 2015-07-29T12:59:18Z jackdaniel: s/when/when used/ 2015-07-29T12:59:23Z varjag: it was implemented as a dsl in lisp initially iirc 2015-07-29T12:59:26Z eudoxia: yeah, come on guys 2015-07-29T12:59:31Z varjag: but then what wasn't 2015-07-29T12:59:33Z varjag: :p 2015-07-29T13:00:19Z jackdaniel: "why logo is an acceptable lisp" ;) 2015-07-29T13:01:05Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T13:01:45Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for Fare: I've solved a problem, now a bit of coding and problem should disappear - I doubt tough if it ever worked for systems of the same name 2015-07-29T13:01:45Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-29T13:01:53Z theos: wiki says logo influenced smalltalk! 2015-07-29T13:02:10Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T13:03:20Z zeroish joined #lisp 2015-07-29T13:05:28Z eazar_on_wheels quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-29T13:06:16Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T13:06:27Z theos: there is an actual turtle robot that works with the language to draw stuff on paper! i think i should stop reading for today.. 2015-07-29T13:07:30Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-29T13:07:32Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-29T13:08:38Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-29T13:20:18Z Harag1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T13:24:56Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-29T13:25:45Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T13:25:47Z jcmdln joined #lisp 2015-07-29T13:26:46Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T13:30:19Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-29T13:30:51Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T13:31:18Z ehu quit (Read error: 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-29T15:18:00Z luis: At least three keys do, perhaps four even. 2015-07-29T15:20:20Z ceryo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T15:20:37Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:20:52Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:22:20Z ceryo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:22:20Z ceryo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T15:23:18Z ceryo_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T15:23:45Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, rpg wanted to better formalize asdf:test-system and test-op — if your travis-ci initiative for CL leads to bright ideas as to how these could be improved, all the bette 2015-07-29T15:23:45Z minion: Fare, memo from jackdaniel: I've solved a problem, now a bit of coding and problem should disappear - I doubt tough if it ever worked for systems of the same name 2015-07-29T15:24:28Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-29T15:28:46Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T15:29:39Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-29T15:29:45Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:30:26Z quazimod1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T15:30:48Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:31:25Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:32:03Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T15:32:33Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:36:20Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:36:37Z soultadu joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:38:58Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-07-29T15:39:44Z theos: perhaps i can write logo in CL! good start for kids 2015-07-29T15:42:36Z MoALTz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-29T15:43:27Z oGMo: i think that's been done a few times 2015-07-29T15:43:41Z oGMo: but, probably a good exercise 2015-07-29T15:45:54Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:46:30Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:46:39Z oskarth joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:50:05Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:50:11Z cluck quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-29T15:55:06Z soultadu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T15:56:05Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-29T15:56:40Z pjb: http://cliki.net/Logo-to-lisp 2015-07-29T15:58:04Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T15:58:16Z WarWeasle joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:00:30Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:01:46Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T16:02:42Z oGMo: also cl-turtle and possibly some others, sadly a bit hard to search for since you can't specify context in any search engines :P 2015-07-29T16:05:55Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:07:04Z trig-ger_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:07:30Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:08:21Z cataska joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:08:26Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-29T16:11:43Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:12:06Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-29T16:12:14Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:13:21Z XachX quit (Input/output error) 2015-07-29T16:13:22Z billstclair quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:13:22Z gz quit (Broken pipe) 2015-07-29T16:13:23Z danlentz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:13:23Z bb010g quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T16:13:23Z gz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:13:23Z victor_lowther quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T16:13:23Z splittist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:13:23Z XachX quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:13:23Z NhanH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T16:13:24Z cojy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:13:24Z alms_clozure quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:13:25Z superjudge quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T16:13:25Z endou___________ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:13:28Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:14:17Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T16:14:31Z developernotes quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T16:14:56Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:16:05Z developernotes quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T16:16:31Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:16:38Z developernotes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:17:03Z Firedancer: Do anyone of you use Lisp on Arch? Seems like almost all the packages in AUR are old/broken 2015-07-29T16:17:04Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:17:40Z H4ns: Firedancer: the standard answer is "use quicklisp" 2015-07-29T16:17:58Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-29T16:17:59Z developernotes quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T16:18:05Z oGMo: i don't think you can get a lisp with QL which is what it seems Firedancer means 2015-07-29T16:18:11Z ceryo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T16:18:25Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:18:26Z Firedancer: I am trying to get Matlisp work 2015-07-29T16:18:38Z oGMo: but definitely use quicklisp.. and if getting a lisp _is_ the concern, it's generally best on any dist to build your own 2015-07-29T16:18:41Z Firedancer: Supringsingly SBCL is the only package that seems to be working 2015-07-29T16:18:47Z jasom: 1.2.12 is the newest sbcl in AUR 2015-07-29T16:19:01Z jasom: that's only a few months old 2015-07-29T16:20:05Z Firedancer: But now Matlisp seem to need CFFI....which need Alexandria....and both packages are old and abandoned in AUR 2015-07-29T16:20:14Z H4ns: Firedancer: use quicklisp 2015-07-29T16:20:23Z jasom: Firedancer: cffi and alexandria will load fine with quicklisp 2015-07-29T16:20:44Z jasom: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/#installation 2015-07-29T16:22:05Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-29T16:22:34Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:23:21Z superancetre quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-29T16:23:54Z superjudge joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:24:02Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:24:47Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:25:10Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:25:23Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-29T16:25:32Z cojy joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:26:45Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:27:16Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:31:54Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-29T16:32:23Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-29T16:33:28Z endou___________ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:34:49Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:35:10Z anunnaki quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T16:35:31Z peterhil joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:35:39Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:35:45Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:36:09Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:36:57Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-29T16:37:36Z faheem__ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:38:25Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-29T16:38:51Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:41:13Z gz joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:41:20Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:41:31Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:41:55Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:42:16Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:42:16Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T16:42:21Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:43:00Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-29T16:43:23Z mbrudd joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:43:33Z mbrudd left #lisp 2015-07-29T16:43:34Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-29T16:43:36Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-29T16:44:13Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:46:06Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-29T16:48:03Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:48:50Z aftershave joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:49:22Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:50:44Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:51:07Z oleo_ quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-29T16:52:49Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:54:13Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:54:30Z akkad: ql, the new standard :P 2015-07-29T16:57:44Z ceryo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T16:58:12Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T16:59:25Z angavrilov_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T16:59:49Z angavrilov_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:00:02Z jackdaniel: quicklisp - beyond omega ^_^ 2015-07-29T17:00:39Z akkad: omegatatos 2015-07-29T17:00:50Z akkad: "the most omega" 2015-07-29T17:01:41Z jackdaniel: you lost pun on "beyond beta" from els ;) 2015-07-29T17:02:55Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-29T17:06:36Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:06:58Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:07:44Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:07:58Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:08:03Z codeitagile joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:09:21Z ZabaQ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-29T17:09:25Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:12:48Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:12:49Z rpg_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T17:12:49Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T17:12:55Z XachX joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:12:58Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:16:04Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-29T17:16:46Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T17:17:24Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-29T17:17:48Z _cosmona` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-29T17:19:21Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-29T17:19:25Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:23:53Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:25:15Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:27:10Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:29:02Z ceryo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:29:05Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:30:21Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:30:43Z ceryo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T17:33:42Z theverbg joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:35:17Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:35:17Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-29T17:35:17Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:35:57Z prphp joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:36:30Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-29T17:36:52Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:37:18Z ceryo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T17:37:29Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:38:59Z akkad: figured it was from "ego eimi alpha kai omega" 2015-07-29T17:41:24Z oleo quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-29T17:44:14Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:45:22Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T17:47:26Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-29T17:48:20Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:48:24Z dmiles_afk quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-29T17:48:44Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:48:52Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:48:54Z dmiles_afk quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-29T17:48:56Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:49:14Z jasom: If it isn't going to be called "1.0" perhaps Xach should call it "gamma"; not finished, but more stable than a beta 2015-07-29T17:49:49Z phoas-pyon quit (Quit: dirty mutation) 2015-07-29T17:49:54Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:49:56Z dmiles_afk quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-29T17:50:03Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:52:06Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:52:17Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:53:28Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:55:43Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:56:42Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-29T17:57:02Z josemanuel quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T17:58:26Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T17:58:49Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:59:15Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-29T17:59:22Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T18:00:09Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:01:17Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:01:39Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-07-29T18:01:44Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T18:03:54Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T18:05:46Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:08:19Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-29T18:09:07Z isBEKaml quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T18:10:22Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-29T18:12:39Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T18:13:00Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:14:27Z akkad: G -> Y 2015-07-29T18:14:30Z akkad: Yamma 2015-07-29T18:14:34Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:19:21Z dougk_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T18:22:33Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:24:26Z badkins quit 2015-07-29T18:26:12Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-29T18:27:03Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:30:52Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:31:22Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T18:31:50Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:34:16Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:38:41Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:39:42Z alokbeniwal joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:39:54Z francogrex: has anyone tried the cl-bayesnet. I tried to serialize/deserialize an object but i get this error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152607 2015-07-29T18:40:07Z aeth: quicklisp shouldn't be beta, but you also shouldn't just call it "gamma". Skip a few, e.g. 8. That puts you at lambda. 2015-07-29T18:40:14Z aeth: Quicklisp lambda. 2015-07-29T18:40:56Z francogrex: same happens if i used another persistence/serialization lib like cl-persistance ... why? 2015-07-29T18:41:00Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:41:10Z alokbeniwal quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-29T18:42:16Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T18:42:44Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:43:10Z akkad: lahmed 2015-07-29T18:43:11Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T18:43:13Z jasom: francogrex: most serialization libraries can't serialize anonymous functions 2015-07-29T18:43:28Z jasom: actually I don't think any can 2015-07-29T18:43:35Z akkad: francogrex: cl-store? 2015-07-29T18:43:47Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:44:17Z francogrex: jasom: ok. so i tried to setf it to nil 2015-07-29T18:44:20Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-29T18:44:48Z ristur joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:44:55Z pjb: However you can easily serialize a lambda expression. 2015-07-29T18:45:06Z jasom: pjb: right, but not the environment it closes over 2015-07-29T18:45:48Z faheem__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-29T18:46:27Z francogrex: (setf (cl-bayesnet::compiled *join-tree*) nil) then store restore => The value NIL is not of type CONS ... 2015-07-29T18:46:45Z jasom: nil is not of type CONS, that is correct 2015-07-29T18:47:03Z francogrex: i have the possibility to remove the function but it is expecting a cons somehow 2015-07-29T18:48:25Z jasom: that is odd; cl-bayesnet::net doesn't have type requirements on any of its slots 2015-07-29T18:48:30Z francogrex: even (setf (cl-bayesnet::compiled *join-tree*) (cons nil nil)) same error 2015-07-29T18:48:53Z jasom: francogrex: whole paste of the new error? 2015-07-29T18:49:23Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T18:49:57Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:50:19Z francogrex: yes sure: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152607#1 2015-07-29T18:50:58Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:54:17Z jlongster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T18:54:34Z jasom: francogrex: hmm I can store/restore a fresh make-instance of net without any problems 2015-07-29T18:54:51Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:55:14Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T18:57:35Z jlarocco_work quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T19:01:12Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-29T19:01:19Z jasom: francogrex: I would guess that the nil error isn't from the :compiled, but from something further along (e.g. node-vec) 2015-07-29T19:01:40Z scymtym_: jasom: globally proclaim increased safety or restrict compiler policy to reproduce? 2015-07-29T19:02:33Z francogrex: ok jasom intersting 2015-07-29T19:02:49Z francogrex: could you restore also a compiled one? 2015-07-29T19:02:59Z francogrex: with the lambda etc.. 2015-07-29T19:03:45Z jasom: scymtym_: there is no type restriction on that slot, so it's almost certainly not where the problem is 2015-07-29T19:03:59Z jasom suspects that if francogrex were to set compiled to 'foo it wouldn't say "FOO is not of type CONS" 2015-07-29T19:04:11Z scymtym_: jasom: ok 2015-07-29T19:04:46Z pegu: Are there any good s-expr matchers available? I've seen this http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/s-query.html but I would expect something with wildcards, registers etc. 2015-07-29T19:05:19Z jasom: pegu: I'm not sure exactly what you want; perhaps optima would work? 2015-07-29T19:05:27Z oGMo: pegu: i wrote uh.. something, sec 2015-07-29T19:06:23Z oGMo: pegu: https://github.com/rpav/conspath 2015-07-29T19:06:29Z francogrex: let's try 2015-07-29T19:07:00Z oGMo: but that may not be whta you're after, since it's a very specific sort of matching, and no registers iirc 2015-07-29T19:08:02Z francogrex: 1. COMPILED: FOO , but still => The value NIL is not of type CONS so it's something else 2015-07-29T19:09:13Z pegu: oGMo: That looks more what I'm looking for - thanks! I can do without registers if it returns the matched sexpr 2015-07-29T19:09:18Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-29T19:10:19Z pegu: Seem to be more here: http://www.cliki.net/pattern%20matching 2015-07-29T19:10:49Z oGMo: doubtless, optima as suggested is another entirely different way to do things, and obviously destructuring-bind 2015-07-29T19:11:05Z pegu: jasom: thanks, I'll check out https://github.com/m2ym/optima too 2015-07-29T19:11:53Z pegu: Optima is in quicklisp too which is a plus 2015-07-29T19:11:58Z francogrex: jasom: it's an sbcl problem! 2015-07-29T19:12:12Z francogrex: I tried with ccl it's fine even with the compiled function 2015-07-29T19:12:20Z francogrex: what implementation? 2015-07-29T19:13:10Z summersault joined #lisp 2015-07-29T19:14:00Z ggole quit 2015-07-29T19:14:32Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-07-29T19:14:39Z upthelazyriver joined #lisp 2015-07-29T19:15:38Z jasom: I'm using sbcl 2015-07-29T19:16:08Z jasom: Do be aware that sbcl is more strict at enforcing types at default safety levels 2015-07-29T19:16:19Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-29T19:16:50Z francogrex: weird! I have sbcl "1.2.11" and both on nix and window same error 2015-07-29T19:16:56Z francogrex: what do you suggest? 2015-07-29T19:17:16Z jasom: 1.2.11 here as well 2015-07-29T19:17:23Z jasom: I'd look at the backtrace from the error 2015-07-29T19:17:51Z jasom: If you can send me asia.dne I can look at it here too 2015-07-29T19:19:03Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-29T19:19:22Z slyrus: drmeister: how's clasp coming along? 2015-07-29T19:19:38Z francogrex: sure it's a small file so I posted here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152615 2015-07-29T19:19:51Z ristur left #lisp 2015-07-29T19:20:34Z drmeister: slyrus: The proof of concept code generation is only 4x slower than SBCL/C. 2015-07-29T19:20:44Z slyrus: not bad! 2015-07-29T19:20:54Z drmeister: That's without type inference. 2015-07-29T19:21:18Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-29T19:22:37Z nyef_: drmeister: Is that still cclasp, or do you have bclasp at that point? 2015-07-29T19:22:48Z drmeister: That is cclasp. 2015-07-29T19:23:13Z eudoxia: is bclasp the version with the bits from SICL? 2015-07-29T19:23:20Z eudoxia is not up to date on Clasp dev 2015-07-29T19:25:14Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-29T19:26:03Z jasom: drmeister: that's pretty darn good 2015-07-29T19:27:24Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-29T19:28:10Z drmeister: cclasp is the version that uses the Cleavir compiler from SICL 2015-07-29T19:30:18Z eudoxia: drmeister: how are you progressing with Cleavir? i experimented with it over the weekend and built a really tiny AST-to-JS "compiler" 2015-07-29T19:30:50Z jasom: francogrex: loading asia isn't working so well for me 2015-07-29T19:30:51Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T19:30:53Z drmeister: It's fully integrated 2015-07-29T19:31:29Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-07-29T19:32:11Z eudoxia: neat 2015-07-29T19:32:14Z jasom: francogrex: node-order num-nodes and node-vec are all unbound after loading from the dne 2015-07-29T19:32:24Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-29T19:32:55Z francogrex: cl-bayesnet::num-nodes? 2015-07-29T19:33:08Z francogrex: try to get inside the package 2015-07-29T19:34:05Z francogrex: (cl-bayesnet::num-nodes *join-tree*) 2015-07-29T19:34:12Z upthelazyriver left #lisp 2015-07-29T19:34:16Z francogrex: not all are exported 2015-07-29T19:35:12Z jasom: francogrex: I found the issue, the table inside the node named visitasia has dimensionality 0 2015-07-29T19:35:26Z jasom: #0A#(0.01d0 0.99d0) 2015-07-29T19:35:28Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-29T19:36:11Z jasom: which causes Dimensions to be nil, which is not a cons 2015-07-29T19:36:17Z francogrex: aha! ok so ccl is more premissive 2015-07-29T19:36:50Z jasom: (array-dimensions #0a#(1 2)) => nil 2015-07-29T19:36:51Z francogrex: how the hell did this get a dimension 0? 2015-07-29T19:36:59Z jasom: francogrex: could be an sbcl bug 2015-07-29T19:38:02Z francogrex: also SMOKING NIL #(SMOKER NONSMOKER) #0A#(0.5d0 0.5d0) 2015-07-29T19:38:12Z jasom: francogrex: it's a bug in xmlbif-add-definition 2015-07-29T19:38:30Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T19:38:49Z jasom: or maybe not 2015-07-29T19:38:58Z francogrex: yes not sbcl bc also in ccl yiou get the weirdness VISITASIA NIL #(VISIT NO_VISIT) #0A#(0.01D0 0.99D0) 2015-07-29T19:39:02Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-29T19:39:17Z jasom: C-c C-w C-c doesn't always work right 2015-07-29T19:39:43Z francogrex: thank god, I was not ready to change a lisp implementation just for that, I am used to sbcl 2015-07-29T19:40:16Z jasom: francogrex: bug fixes come *fast* once you report them; I've found 2 over the years and both were fixed the same week 2015-07-29T19:40:18Z oleo: hello 2015-07-29T19:40:34Z francogrex: jasom: thanks. I'll do some testing inside cl-bayesnet, i 2015-07-29T19:40:50Z francogrex: i think though this is the package bug isn't it? 2015-07-29T19:41:06Z jasom: yeah, just pointing out an sbcl bug isn't too bad to get fixed 2015-07-29T19:41:45Z francogrex: ok 2015-07-29T19:42:33Z Fare: jasom: small enhancement requests with patches, on the other hand, may take years to get committed... 2015-07-29T19:42:48Z jasom: Fare: no kidding 2015-07-29T19:43:05Z jasom: It seems like every time I ping, they are in the middle of a release so don't want to add new features 2015-07-29T19:44:38Z ceryo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-29T19:49:22Z jasom: francogrex: I've pared it down to either parse-ace-potential or parse-netica-node 2015-07-29T19:49:36Z jasom: I don't know what any of those terms mean, so debugging a bit blindly here 2015-07-29T19:52:48Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T19:53:19Z jasom: francogrex: ah, probs is supposed to be a list-of-lists but is in fact just a list in parse-netica-node 2015-07-29T19:53:45Z jasom: e.g. node Smoking is wrong 2015-07-29T19:55:24Z francogrex: hmm 2015-07-29T19:55:43Z jasom: francogrex: should be ((0.5, 0.5)(0.5 0.5)) 2015-07-29T19:56:06Z jasom: or not maybe 2015-07-29T19:56:09Z jasom: there are not parents 2015-07-29T19:56:27Z jasom: anyway, the library expects a multi-dimensional list but gets a unidimensional list 2015-07-29T19:56:37Z jasom: I don't know anything about the format of your input file 2015-07-29T19:56:44Z francogrex: i was wondring though, is this notation #0A#(0.01d0 0.99d0) even compliant? 2015-07-29T19:57:10Z jasom: francogrex: really not, but bn directly does a (make-array nil :initial-contents ...) 2015-07-29T19:57:14Z francogrex: it's a netica format, the problem is a bad parsing 2015-07-29T19:57:28Z francogrex: by cl-bayesnet... 2015-07-29T19:57:32Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-29T19:57:39Z francogrex: I'll have to contact the author 2015-07-29T19:57:49Z francogrex: it's a very nice library though 2015-07-29T19:58:09Z jasom: look at the :probs case in parse-netica-node 2015-07-29T19:58:25Z jasom: there you'll see the dimension-list-but-one 2015-07-29T19:58:48Z francogrex: http://www.norsys.com/WebHelp/NETICA/X_Example_Bayes_Net.htm 2015-07-29T19:59:23Z jasom: so it looks like it cannot handle base truths 2015-07-29T20:01:49Z jasom: I think the proper thing there is for it to return a one-dimensional array of atoms 2015-07-29T20:02:04Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:02:43Z erjag joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:04:37Z francogrex: ok, but that aside why ccl for example does not complain when restoring such object while sbcl does? 2015-07-29T20:04:42Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-29T20:04:55Z jasom: it probably ignores the array dimensionality maybe? 2015-07-29T20:05:03Z jasom: it's totally invalid to do this so all bets are off 2015-07-29T20:05:38Z francogrex: and array dimensionality is a must when deserializing... ? 2015-07-29T20:06:01Z jasom: it's a must when creating an array certainly 2015-07-29T20:06:43Z jasom: oh, actually zero element arrays are valid it looks like 2015-07-29T20:07:40Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-29T20:07:50Z jasom: so it's a bug either in sbcl or cl-store... 2015-07-29T20:08:01Z jasom: "#0A foo represents a zero-dimensional array whose sole element is the symbol foo." 2015-07-29T20:08:42Z francogrex: yes apparantly... it looks more like sbcl now... nyef_ ? 2015-07-29T20:08:51Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:09:09Z nyef_: Hmm? 2015-07-29T20:10:35Z dlowe: #0a foo seems like an interesting way to pass a "place" around 2015-07-29T20:10:48Z nyef_: What's your suspected issue? 2015-07-29T20:11:02Z jasom: ah, it's (safety 0) so may not be an sbcl bug 2015-07-29T20:11:10Z dlowe: Use aref to "dereference" the place 2015-07-29T20:11:57Z francogrex: nyef_: you probably have not followed the discussion bewteen me and jason. we're trying to understand whether difference between sbcl and ccl is related to a bug 2015-07-29T20:12:09Z jasom: (declare (type cons dimensions) (type array-tot-size size)) 2015-07-29T20:12:11Z jasom: There's the bug 2015-07-29T20:12:14Z jasom: should be list, not cons 2015-07-29T20:12:30Z nyef_: Yeah, array-dimensions may be NIL. 2015-07-29T20:12:39Z jasom: one symbol fix 2015-07-29T20:12:43Z francogrex: ok 2015-07-29T20:12:49Z francogrex: jasom: where in src? 2015-07-29T20:12:52Z jasom: default-backend.lisp in defrestore-clstore (array stream) 2015-07-29T20:13:06Z jasom: look for (declare (type cons dimensions)) and change cons to list 2015-07-29T20:13:17Z resttime: is anyone having an issue with quicklisp? 2015-07-29T20:13:20Z francogrex: ok... I had same issue with cl-persistence then 2015-07-29T20:13:25Z jasom had no clue that you could have a non-empty 0-dimensional array 2015-07-29T20:13:35Z francogrex neither 2015-07-29T20:13:49Z XachX: resttime: what kind of issue? 2015-07-29T20:13:57Z nyef_: Heh. My first serious Lisp project, I ended up using 0-dimensional arrays quite a bit. 2015-07-29T20:14:14Z resttime: XachX, it keeps hanging when loading a library 2015-07-29T20:14:16Z nyef_: Now, what you can't have is an (ARRAY NIL) with any data in it. 2015-07-29T20:14:29Z jasom: right, but it is a string 2015-07-29T20:14:36Z nyef_: Right. It's a STRING. 2015-07-29T20:14:40Z resttime: and i think it leaks memory because SBCL just keeps growing in mem 2015-07-29T20:14:42Z XachX: resttime: What library? If you interrupt it, what do you see in the backtrace? What Lisp? 2015-07-29T20:15:51Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:16:04Z resttime: XachX, they are libs located in local-project 2015-07-29T20:16:25Z jasom: man, fixing bugs is so much easier than writing software 2015-07-29T20:16:39Z Oladon: jasom: depends on the bug... 2015-07-29T20:17:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:17:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-07-29T20:17:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:18:02Z resttime: XachX, in the backtrace there's a lot of [REINITIALIZE-SOURCE-REGISTRY-AND-RETRY] Retry finding system imginu after reinitializing the source-registry. 2015-07-29T20:18:26Z resttime: it just builds up like that one specifically was the 3058'th one 2015-07-29T20:18:39Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:18:40Z XachX: resttime: Do you have an imgnu.asd? 2015-07-29T20:19:17Z XachX: imginu.asd, rather 2015-07-29T20:19:28Z resttime: the entire library https://github.com/resttime/imginu 2015-07-29T20:20:37Z francogrex: jasom: still though this fixes it when compiled is nil however when it is a closure ccl restores while sbcl still errs... 2015-07-29T20:20:37Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:21:43Z Oladon: resttime: I could be wrong, but your .asd looks incomplete (missing defpackage/in-package) 2015-07-29T20:22:03Z francogrex: try (bn:use-join-tree *join-tree*) , (cl-store:store *join-tree* "net") , (cl-store:restore "net") 2015-07-29T20:22:24Z resttime: Oladon, https://github.com/resttime/imginu/blob/master/src/imginu.lisp 2015-07-29T20:23:26Z resttime: XachX, actually wait, it might be xmls specifically that's the problem 2015-07-29T20:24:15Z XachX: Oladon: you don't need defpackage/in-package in a system file. 2015-07-29T20:24:54Z resttime: XachX, I open SLIME then run (ql:quickload "uiop") then (ql:quickload "xmls") 2015-07-29T20:25:39Z Oladon: Ah, I thought you needed to define the ASDF package. 2015-07-29T20:25:47Z WarWeasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T20:25:49Z Oladon: Well, the -asd package, that is. 2015-07-29T20:25:51Z resttime: same behavior with just sbcl alone without SLIME 2015-07-29T20:26:14Z XachX: resttime: what is the behavior? 2015-07-29T20:28:00Z resttime: it just hangs 2015-07-29T20:28:15Z resttime: when I send interrupt: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152617 2015-07-29T20:28:25Z resttime: repeat that 4000 times 2015-07-29T20:29:03Z resttime: Well there's also another retry continue and aborts repeated 4000 times, 2015-07-29T20:29:26Z francogrex: 4000? 2015-07-29T20:29:35Z resttime: it just keeps growing 2015-07-29T20:29:39Z XachX: resttime: what lisp? 2015-07-29T20:29:40Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:29:54Z XachX: oh, sbcl 2015-07-29T20:30:10Z XachX: resttime: what does the backtrace look like? 2015-07-29T20:31:16Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T20:32:37Z ceryo quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-29T20:33:21Z resttime: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152617#1 2015-07-29T20:33:39Z resttime: repeat lines 12-21 as many times as you want until sbcl crashes 2015-07-29T20:34:51Z resttime: oh and (ql:quickload "xmls") also doesn't work on a new instance of sbcl because it complains the package uiop doesn't exist 2015-07-29T20:36:44Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-29T20:40:55Z mark____ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:41:20Z resttime: i cleared sbcl fasl cache, reinstalled quicklisp, (ql:quickload "uiop"), (ql:quickload "xmls") 2015-07-29T20:41:34Z resttime: no change from problem 2015-07-29T20:41:51Z dlowe: uh, oh. xmls? 2015-07-29T20:43:08Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:43:13Z resttime: dlowe, yeah though i think i might be able to reproduce the problem with other packages, i'm trying to find out how 2015-07-29T20:43:41Z digiorgi: it's ok if in a macro i force to macroexpand the body? 2015-07-29T20:43:48Z dlowe: huh. quickload xmls wfm 2015-07-29T20:44:07Z dlowe: digiorgi: doesn't seem that useful, but it shouldn't hurt anything 2015-07-29T20:44:08Z White_Flame: digiorgi: generally, no. You'd normally want to output code that is then further macroexpanded 2015-07-29T20:44:27Z resttime: dlowe, it also used to work for me too, i've been trying to figure out the problem yesterday 2015-07-29T20:44:43Z resttime: i reinstalled a lot of things 2015-07-29T20:44:54Z White_Flame: manually expanding macros becomes a mess of what context & environment the expansion occurs in, because interaction with the current environment is typically why you want to force expansion to happen right then 2015-07-29T20:45:07Z resttime: updated SLIME, deleted caches, and etc. to try and fix 2015-07-29T20:45:17Z Oladon: resttime: what version of sbcl are you using? 2015-07-29T20:45:44Z resttime: Oladon, 1.1.4.0 2015-07-29T20:45:44Z francogrex: resttime: sbcl and asdf don't seem to get well along lately 2015-07-29T20:45:57Z resttime: what boggles my mind was that it used to work totally fine 2015-07-29T20:46:01Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:46:31Z White_Flame: digiorgi: another alternative is to convert your inner macroexpansion from a macro to a plain function, then call that function inside your outer macro 2015-07-29T20:46:44Z francogrex: i understand. I had same issue with a library loading into sbcl... no change and then one day BANG! 2015-07-29T20:46:53Z nyef_: 1.1.4 is fairly old as far as SBCL goes. 2015-07-29T20:47:29Z resttime: francogrex, yeah :( 2015-07-29T20:48:06Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-29T20:48:08Z francogrex: it's not quicklisp you'll realize 2015-07-29T20:48:25Z francogrex: try to asdf without ql and you'll end up having same proble 2015-07-29T20:49:45Z francogrex: you probably had updated something without realizing it 2015-07-29T20:50:21Z resttime: nyef_, francogrex, i guess i'll upgrade sbcl then and see how it goes 2015-07-29T20:50:33Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T20:51:54Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-29T20:52:36Z Oladon: I just tried in three different versions of sbcl and couldn't reproduce :( 2015-07-29T20:53:48Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:53:58Z paddymahoney quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T20:57:56Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-29T20:58:08Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-29T20:58:46Z resttime: yeah, sbcl really was the problem... 2015-07-29T20:59:13Z resttime: i don't know how or why, and it worked in the past 2015-07-29T20:59:20Z resttime: like just yesterday 2015-07-29T20:59:38Z resttime: spent hours on this, makes me want to cry 2015-07-29T21:00:36Z francogrex: so it's fixed now? 2015-07-29T21:00:58Z resttime: yeah new version loads things correctly 2015-07-29T21:01:10Z francogrex: well to be fair it's not sbcl 2015-07-29T21:01:40Z francogrex: it's the updates of asdf, the packages and the interactions between sbcl and those 2015-07-29T21:03:25Z francogrex: maybe quicklisp should send a warning like: your lisp version is too old so don't bother... 2015-07-29T21:04:20Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:04:30Z Oladon: resttime: at least it was an easy fix :) 2015-07-29T21:06:28Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-29T21:06:47Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:07:01Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T21:07:08Z resttime: it's usually the easy fixes that get you the most lol 2015-07-29T21:08:02Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:08:07Z kolko_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-29T21:09:15Z AJavaIdiot joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:09:34Z AJavaIdiot: Hi everyone. Can anyone recommend a good introductory book in lambda calculus? 2015-07-29T21:09:47Z AJavaIdiot: *on 2015-07-29T21:10:16Z pjb: AJavaIdiot: https://www.google.fr/search?q=lambda+calculus+introduction&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=J0G5VaTPFMH8UuzXlLAG#q=lambda+calculus+introduction&newwindow=1&safe=off&tbm=bks 2015-07-29T21:10:36Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-29T21:10:43Z AJavaIdiot: Thanks pjb, how didn't I think of that. I feel so dumb now. 2015-07-29T21:11:05Z AJavaIdiot: I actually wanted recommendations, now just whatever google decided to rank at the top 2015-07-29T21:11:34Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T21:11:48Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:12:19Z pjb: AJavaIdiot: You know, since I have enough hard disk space, I resold my books and only kept scans of them and nowadays, with all the material on the web, I don't even bother to look for books, I just google my questions and learn from the web. 2015-07-29T21:13:25Z AJavaIdiot: pjb: That doesn't work for me. For me to read something on the computer and actually enjoy it, it has to be something really great like land of lisp 2015-07-29T21:17:43Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:18:00Z francogrex: land of lisp is now considred as "great"? 2015-07-29T21:18:34Z AJavaIdiot: It's fun and I found it entertaining. 2015-07-29T21:18:40Z AJavaIdiot: Redundancy 2015-07-29T21:18:45Z francogrex: fun yes 2015-07-29T21:19:00Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-29T21:19:07Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:19:52Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:27:16Z francogrex: this seems good enough: http://palmstroem.blogspot.be/2012/05/lambda-calculus-for-absolute-dummies.html just use a printer, bind with a stapler if you are so averse reading offa screen 2015-07-29T21:27:50Z PuercoPop: minion: memo for rpg: Idk what is normative but if you prepend unix/ to your unix socket file, xlib::get-default-display works as intented. 2015-07-29T21:27:50Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rpg when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-29T21:29:16Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-29T21:30:16Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:31:46Z francogrex: someone there actually made a Turing machine! 2015-07-29T21:32:13Z nyef_: francogrex: Where'd they get the infinitely-long tape? 2015-07-29T21:32:39Z jasom: francogrex: sbcl is more strict about type declarations than any non-cmucl-derived lisp 2015-07-29T21:33:20Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-29T21:35:35Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T21:38:56Z francogrex: nyef_: yes a Turing machine cannot be implemented, it's just a toy model 2015-07-29T21:39:07Z erjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-29T21:40:08Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T21:41:24Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-29T21:43:04Z mark____ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-29T21:44:36Z Asifys joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:45:14Z Asifys left #lisp 2015-07-29T21:45:14Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-29T21:46:06Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-29T21:46:53Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:49:38Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T21:53:01Z kristof: It's a *theoretical* model, not a toy. :/ 2015-07-29T21:53:59Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-07-29T21:54:09Z cluck: nyef_: moebius tape! 2015-07-29T21:55:21Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T22:01:07Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T22:01:32Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-29T22:02:33Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-29T22:02:55Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-29T22:03:15Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-29T22:07:46Z pjb: minion: memo for francogrex: that's why this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTSAiF9AHN4 doesn't exist, and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3keLeMwfHY doesn't exist. 2015-07-29T22:07:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell francogrex when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-29T22:11:32Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-29T22:11:54Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T22:12:16Z josteink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T22:15:33Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-29T22:19:39Z peterhil quit (Quit: Must not waste too much time here...) 2015-07-29T22:20:48Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-29T22:27:50Z resttime: hmmm, commonqt doesn't seem to work in windows with SBCL 2015-07-29T22:27:56Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-29T22:28:11Z resttime: CCL is seems fine though 2015-07-29T22:29:44Z rpg: PuercoPop: thanks for the suggestion about the display variable. I will test.... 2015-07-29T22:29:44Z minion: rpg, memo from PuercoPop: Idk what is normative but if you prepend unix/ to your unix socket file, xlib::get-default-display works as intented. 2015-07-29T22:31:46Z gendl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-29T22:32:11Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-07-29T22:32:32Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-29T22:33:35Z cluck quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 39.0/20150630154324]) 2015-07-29T22:35:38Z PuercoPop: rpg: it appears without the unix/ it trips xcb as well btw 2015-07-29T22:35:55Z rpg: XCB? 2015-07-29T22:36:10Z PuercoPop: and that if the protocol is not specified it is a best effort to find the 'fastest' protocol 2015-07-29T22:36:12Z rpg: I could see about automagically adding the UNIx. 2015-07-29T22:36:13Z PuercoPop: the 'new xlib' 2015-07-29T22:36:20Z rpg: oh... 2015-07-29T22:36:44Z rpg: I asked the Xquartz people and they don't seem to view the X docs as constituting a spec to which they must comply. 2015-07-29T22:36:50Z PuercoPop: check http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~chr/libxcb/tree/src/xcb_util.c _xcb_parse_display. It does the same logic that clx does 2015-07-29T22:37:11Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T22:38:24Z PuercoPop: of course a more user friendly approach in clx would be to match what it things is the protocol string to an enumeration of valid protocol names 2015-07-29T22:38:44Z PuercoPop: and issue an error if it is an unrecognized one 2015-07-29T22:42:30Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T22:43:44Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-29T22:44:26Z PuercoPop: if you are on OS X I guess it doesn't matter what xcb does. 2015-07-29T22:52:18Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-29T22:52:24Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-29T22:52:42Z rpg: PuercoPop: Right. Just want CLX to work! 2015-07-29T22:53:14Z rpg: I think "local" might work, as well as "unix" 2015-07-29T22:54:05Z rpg: PuercoPop: one thing that's confusing me as I try to fix things is that CLX uses "host" for a lot of variables, and sometimes it seems that "host or socket" might be ok, and sometimes "no, this should really be a host." 2015-07-29T22:54:18Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-29T22:56:26Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-29T23:01:57Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-29T23:02:46Z PuercoPop: Idk how to setup Xephyr to reproduce your environment so I can't really help you there. 2015-07-29T23:02:47Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-07-29T23:03:16Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-29T23:03:38Z PuercoPop: hmm there appears to be a fix for example your problem as a PR 2 days ago 2015-07-29T23:03:39Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/pull/18 2015-07-29T23:05:10Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T23:05:49Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-29T23:06:26Z PuercoPop: *for exactly 2015-07-29T23:07:26Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-07-29T23:09:04Z eazar_scorched joined #lisp 2015-07-29T23:09:10Z jlarocco_work joined #lisp 2015-07-29T23:15:50Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-29T23:21:44Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-29T23:22:10Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T23:26:54Z prphp_ joined #lisp 2015-07-29T23:30:50Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-29T23:30:51Z prphp quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-29T23:34:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-29T23:35:18Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-29T23:35:38Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-29T23:35:59Z prphp_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-29T23:37:56Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-29T23:48:55Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-29T23:49:48Z resttime: goodness gracious, I'm actually managing to create a GUI on win32 with commonqt 2015-07-29T23:50:00Z resttime: after mucking about with things for so long, it feels surreal 2015-07-29T23:51:04Z brpocock left #lisp 2015-07-29T23:53:51Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-29T23:54:21Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-29T23:55:06Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-07-29T23:55:56Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T00:01:34Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-30T00:02:02Z pjb: resttime: when it will really feel surreal, is when you will run the same program on Linux and on Mac and get the same (or similar) GUI. 2015-07-30T00:02:17Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T00:04:44Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T00:07:38Z resttime: ah yes, cross-platform goodness 2015-07-30T00:07:52Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-30T00:08:36Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-30T00:09:53Z resttime: being able to create a gui was something that i sorely wanted 2015-07-30T00:10:17Z resttime: my programs will be awesome now 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like that 2015-07-30T01:30:31Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-30T01:34:30Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T01:36:13Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T01:38:36Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-30T01:41:37Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-30T01:43:36Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T01:44:15Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-07-30T01:44:32Z AJavaIdiot quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 39.0/20150630154324]) 2015-07-30T01:47:25Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T01:47:43Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-30T01:47:51Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-30T01:48:33Z hocwp quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-30T01:49:51Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-30T01:51:29Z zacharias quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T01:51:35Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T01:58:06Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-30T01:58:11Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client 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nicdev 2015-07-30T02:44:39Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-30T02:50:13Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T02:51:02Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-30T02:51:09Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-30T02:51:18Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-07-30T02:53:23Z jibanes: please explain me this 2015-07-30T02:53:29Z jibanes: (setf sin 123) 2015-07-30T02:53:32Z jibanes: 123 2015-07-30T02:53:35Z jibanes: (sin sin) 2015-07-30T02:53:44Z jibanes: -0.45... 2015-07-30T02:53:50Z akkad: two name spaces, one for functions, one for variables 2015-07-30T02:53:53Z jibanes: why the last one doesn't geneerate an error 2015-07-30T02:53:56Z jibanes: oh thank you 2015-07-30T02:54:03Z jibanes: sorry I'm getting back to lisp after 20 years 2015-07-30T02:54:08Z akkad: so you can have function and var with same name. 2015-07-30T02:54:11Z jibanes: got it 2015-07-30T02:54:30Z jibanes: while you're around can I ask for a good book? 2015-07-30T02:55:01Z pillton: minion tell jibanes about PCL 2015-07-30T02:55:14Z pillton: minion: tell jibanes about PCL 2015-07-30T02:55:14Z minion: jibanes: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-30T02:55:16Z jibanes: ty 2015-07-30T02:55:49Z jibanes: ordered 2015-07-30T02:56:44Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-30T02:59:52Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:01:49Z theos: (its free online) 2015-07-30T03:02:27Z jibanes: I like paper 2015-07-30T03:03:18Z theos: print it on a printer? 2015-07-30T03:03:18Z tokik quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-30T03:03:26Z jibanes: not convenient 2015-07-30T03:03:40Z tokik joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:03:55Z loke: theos: Do you hate Xach so much that you want to deny him of the money from a sale of his book? :-) 2015-07-30T03:04:21Z pillton: loke: Xach? 2015-07-30T03:04:28Z jibanes: what's the difference between setq and defconstant 2015-07-30T03:04:29Z theos: loke i dont think Xach_ gets money on the sale of that book 2015-07-30T03:04:39Z beach: theos: We would like our friend Peter Seibel to get some money too, now wouldn't we? 2015-07-30T03:04:41Z tokik quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-30T03:04:52Z jibanes: yeah I don't mind paying the author 2015-07-30T03:05:01Z jibanes: printer pays HP, not good deal. 2015-07-30T03:05:04Z beach: jibanes: SETQ is the assignment operator. 2015-07-30T03:05:19Z beach: jibanes: The variable must be defined locally or globally before you can use it. 2015-07-30T03:05:31Z XachX: I get residuals from the cover quote. 2015-07-30T03:05:43Z beach: jibanes: DEFCONSTANT defines a "constant variable" that can then never be assigned to. 2015-07-30T03:05:44Z tokik joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:05:54Z jibanes: ok 2015-07-30T03:05:56Z jibanes: I see 2015-07-30T03:06:31Z theos: beach you can send some money to Peter without buying the paper copy. and it will be much more than what the publisher pays Peter on the sale of one book. 2015-07-30T03:06:40Z jibanes: heh 2015-07-30T03:06:46Z beach: jibanes: So before using SETQ on a variable, you must either define it globally using DEFVAR or DEFCONSTANT, or locally using LET, LET*, or any other construct that implicitly creates a local variable. 2015-07-30T03:07:03Z beach: theos: True. 2015-07-30T03:07:03Z beach: 2015-07-30T03:07:38Z jibanes: what is the meaning of : in front of, say, a variable 2015-07-30T03:07:41Z bmuk joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:07:46Z beach: jibanes: Package prefix. 2015-07-30T03:08:05Z beach: jibanes: A single : with nothing else, means a symbol in the keyword package. 2015-07-30T03:08:16Z jibanes: you mean namespace? 2015-07-30T03:08:27Z theos: :foo 2015-07-30T03:08:40Z beach: jibanes: There is no such thing as "namespace" in Common Lisp terminology. 2015-07-30T03:08:42Z jibanes: ok 2015-07-30T03:08:45Z bmuk: is there a scaffolding tool for CL? 2015-07-30T03:09:22Z beach: jibanes: The symbols in the keyword package are particular because as variables, they are their own values as well. 2015-07-30T03:09:46Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T03:09:47Z beach: jibanes: So two forms such as ':hello and :hello evaluate to the same thing. 2015-07-30T03:10:11Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:10:25Z akkad hunts for an uptime variable of an image 2015-07-30T03:12:25Z loke: theos and pillton: of course not xach. I meant Peter Siebel of course 2015-07-30T03:14:17Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:15:22Z jibanes: beach: how do you set hello properly? 2015-07-30T03:16:20Z beach: jibanes: If HELLO is a variable, you set it using SETQ, or more commonly, SETF, as in (SETF HELLO 234). 2015-07-30T03:16:23Z beach: BUT, 2015-07-30T03:16:28Z beach: It must be created first. 2015-07-30T03:17:03Z beach: jibanes: Globally: (DEFVAR HELLO) or (DEFPARAMETER HELLO 345) 2015-07-30T03:17:09Z PuercoPop: beach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_n.htm#namespace 2015-07-30T03:17:13Z rpg: As far as I can tell, using SETQ just shows off your knowledge of old Lisp weirdness, and you should always use SETF... 2015-07-30T03:17:20Z beach: PuercoPop: Oh, thank you! :) 2015-07-30T03:17:50Z beach: jibanes: Locally (LET ((HELLO 345)) ...) 2015-07-30T03:17:52Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:17:52Z jibanes: got it 2015-07-30T03:18:07Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:18:39Z PuercoPop: I would consider the function/variable/class/etc of "lisp-2" to count as a namespace as well but it gets troublesome to name two different things by the same name. 2015-07-30T03:19:02Z pjb: PuercoPop: it doesn't have the same meaning as C++ namespace. 2015-07-30T03:19:10Z jibanes: I think I got it 2015-07-30T03:19:27Z beach: pjb: But he is right that it is defined in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2015-07-30T03:20:21Z theos: beach i found the starting point in my ultimate-educational-suite-for-kids. LOGO! 2015-07-30T03:20:38Z beach: theos: Congratulations! 2015-07-30T03:20:39Z PuercoPop: pjb: I wouldn't know. I barely remember cargoculting namespace std; But packages create a namespace in clhs terms. 2015-07-30T03:21:24Z PuercoPop: bmuk: there are a couple, quickproject and https://github.com/guicho271828/eazy-project 2015-07-30T03:21:46Z PuercoPop: I haven't used them but I've been meaning to give the latter a try. 2015-07-30T03:21:49Z jibanes: if I am to do (INSPECT :BLAH) 2015-07-30T03:21:50Z jibanes: 123 2015-07-30T03:21:57Z jibanes: what sets :BLAH function to 123 2015-07-30T03:22:14Z jibanes: what would set :BLAH to 123 2015-07-30T03:22:31Z beach: jibanes: Don't set variables with names in the keyword package. 2015-07-30T03:22:35Z beach: jibanes: And don't use them as function names either. 2015-07-30T03:22:52Z jibanes: I know but I'm trying to understand this code 2015-07-30T03:23:04Z jibanes: and would like to know what would lead to this result 2015-07-30T03:23:05Z beach: 123 is not a function. 2015-07-30T03:23:30Z beach: setting BLAH to 123 would be (SETF BLAH 123) as I said. 2015-07-30T03:23:57Z jibanes: but what about :BLAH 2015-07-30T03:24:12Z beach: You are not supposed to set it or use it as a function. 2015-07-30T03:24:23Z beach: Because it is a symbol in the KEYWORD package. 2015-07-30T03:24:30Z beach: So it is already its own value. 2015-07-30T03:24:32Z jibanes: hmmm 2015-07-30T03:24:36Z jibanes: I don't get that 2015-07-30T03:25:24Z jibanes: let me read on keyword package 2015-07-30T03:26:34Z beach: clhs 11.1.2.3 2015-07-30T03:26:35Z specbot: The KEYWORD Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abc.htm 2015-07-30T03:27:57Z beach: clhs 11.1.2.3.1 2015-07-30T03:27:57Z specbot: Interning a Symbol in the KEYWORD Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abca.htm 2015-07-30T03:28:31Z beach: jibanes: ↑ That section specifically makes it impossible to set its value. 2015-07-30T03:28:47Z beach: jibanes: Because it is turned into a constant variable. 2015-07-30T03:29:08Z jibanes: I see 2015-07-30T03:29:19Z beach: jibanes: It might be conforming code to define it as a function, but it would be very confusing to the reader (person, reading your code) if you did. 2015-07-30T03:30:48Z beach: jibanes: If you know C, think of the symbols in the keyword package as ENUM tags (or whatever they are called in C; I forget). 2015-07-30T03:31:15Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-30T03:32:19Z bmuk: PuercoPop: thank you, I'll check those out. I'm mainly wanting to know how to pull in dependencies and build - something like lein 2015-07-30T03:32:57Z ski joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:33:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm trying to connect to a swank server from another computer. Swank only listens on 127.0.0.1, so what I've been trying to do is route incoming connections to swank so they appear to come from the server. Has anyone done something like this before? 2015-07-30T03:33:41Z slimetree joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:41:11Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-30T03:41:22Z PuercoPop: bmuk: check eazy project then, it could be made more polished by lein with little work fwir 2015-07-30T03:42:52Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: Yes. The easiest way is to use ssh -L 2015-07-30T03:42:52Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:43:32Z loke: So basically, you connect to your remote machine (where te Lisp is runnign) using the following command: ssh -L9876:localhost:4005 the-remote-host 2015-07-30T03:43:54Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T03:43:56Z loke: Then, you can connect to your local port 9876 with SLIME, which will be tunneled to 4005 on the remote machine. 2015-07-30T03:44:08Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:45:35Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:50:27Z loke: Using keywords as functions is actually ok 2015-07-30T03:50:43Z beach: It is conforming, but it is not a good idea. 2015-07-30T03:50:46Z loke: (defun :foo (x) (1+ x)) is ok 2015-07-30T03:50:58Z loke: beach: Well, I agree with that. 2015-07-30T03:51:46Z GGMethos quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3-dev) 2015-07-30T03:54:49Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T03:55:04Z Vicfred joined #lisp 2015-07-30T03:58:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks, that worked. So I'm saying, when I connect to port 9876 from the client connect to the server (the-remote-host) and then connect to localhost:4005? 2015-07-30T04:00:36Z kristof: I've got a &mut [T] of length 0 and allocation n, and a &[T] of length n. How do I push everything from &[T] into &mut[T]? 2015-07-30T04:00:56Z beach: kristof: Wrong channel? 2015-07-30T04:01:02Z kristof: Oh, sorry :) 2015-07-30T04:01:04Z Oladon: beach: I sure was hoping so... 2015-07-30T04:01:27Z kristof: Yes, Lisp got some fancy new syntax while you weren't looking, Oladon. 2015-07-30T04:01:42Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2015-07-30T04:01:43Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:01:55Z Oladon: kristof: Alas, and I was just complaining the other day about silly new-fangled languages and their silly obsessions with fancy syntax 2015-07-30T04:02:35Z Oladon: (where "fancy" = "unreadable" 2015-07-30T04:02:36Z Oladon: ) 2015-07-30T04:03:55Z beach: It helps to keep the riff-raff out. 2015-07-30T04:04:07Z Oladon: Heh. 2015-07-30T04:04:17Z Oladon: All you need for that is a few parentheses :) 2015-07-30T04:04:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: kristof: Thank goodness for reader macros. Other wise we'd be stuck with the ugly parens. 2015-07-30T04:06:13Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T04:08:59Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T04:09:10Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T04:09:48Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:18:45Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:20:19Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T04:21:49Z theos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T04:22:26Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:22:39Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:22:42Z kolko joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:28:39Z loke: Did any of you ever attemot to use/learn ATS? 2015-07-30T04:29:01Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:31:54Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:37:54Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:39:33Z keen__________32 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T04:41:05Z keen__________32 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:41:47Z gendl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-30T04:47:32Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:49:33Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T04:51:00Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T04:51:00Z wemeetagain quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T04:51:17Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:53:56Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:57:27Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-30T04:57:34Z RussT1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T04:59:48Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-30T05:03:06Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T05:03:06Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T05:05:44Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-07-30T05:06:27Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T05:08:49Z Fare: loke: I looked at it. It seems interesting, though not always production-ready. 2015-07-30T05:08:50Z minion: Fare, memo from scymtym: ASDF update looks fine except for a few minor things: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152623. if this fixup looks ok to you, i can squash it into your commit and push tomorrow. 2015-07-30T05:09:20Z loke: Fare: I tried to learn it, but the syntax really put me off for some reason 2015-07-30T05:09:50Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-30T05:10:22Z Fare: scymtym, herep ? 2015-07-30T05:12:52Z Fare: minion: memo for scymtym: looks good, except asdf.git has moved to https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf and the README.SBCL seems to call the current situation a horrible foul up indeed. Also, I'm trying to get rid of the version.texinfo introduced in this release, but I suppose that'll be for next release. 2015-07-30T05:12:52Z minion: Remembered. 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there a way in SLIME debug window to see the line number or location in the source for the functions in the Backtrace 2015-07-30T08:54:59Z Firedancer: hello 2015-07-30T08:55:23Z ecraven: Vityok: maybe M-. works? 2015-07-30T08:56:04Z Vityok: ecraven: thanks, but... 2015-07-30T08:56:37Z Vityok: I mean, if I've got a stack like 0: two-arg-+ 1: process-line 2015-07-30T08:56:54Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T08:57:04Z Vityok: I would like to be able to jump to the place in the sources of the process-line function where the faulty call to + is made 2015-07-30T08:57:21Z ecraven: sorry, not sure about that :-/ 2015-07-30T08:57:27Z Posterdati: hi 2015-07-30T08:57:33Z ecraven: or rather, don't know how to do that at all :) 2015-07-30T08:57:35Z Posterdati: any gsll mantainer here? 2015-07-30T08:57:38Z PuercoPop: Vityok: pres v 2015-07-30T08:57:43Z Vityok: so, for example, if process-line is doing several arithmetic operations, I would like to see which one exactly was faulty 2015-07-30T08:58:13Z Vityok: both v and M-. navigate to the function sources 2015-07-30T08:58:37Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-30T08:58:49Z Vityok: so, it navigates to the sources of either TWO-ARG-+ or PROCESS-LINE functions, but not to the places from where they were called 2015-07-30T08:59:12Z PuercoPop: they are called from the previous backtrace 2015-07-30T08:59:21Z PuercoPop: so you just press v in the previous one 2015-07-30T09:00:06Z Vityok: PuercoPop: yep, but in my config when I press v I get the function sources 2015-07-30T09:00:18Z Vityok: not the place where the function is called from 2015-07-30T09:01:01Z Vityok: it looks like I've got an idea what went wrong in this case, but I face this challenge from time to time rather regullary 2015-07-30T09:01:17Z PuercoPop: you mean the function where the error ocurred right? 2015-07-30T09:01:30Z Vityok: and wanted to find out if there is a more convenient way to highlight the exact location in sources where the faulty call is performed 2015-07-30T09:01:40Z PuercoPop: you should see a menu with backtrace: a multiple lines with [0] 2015-07-30T09:01:54Z PuercoPop: , [1] and so one 2015-07-30T09:02:02Z Vityok: PuercoPop: yes, it informs about local variables, but nothing about location 2015-07-30T09:02:27Z PuercoPop: so if you press v in the [1] line you can see where the call the function in [0] was made 2015-07-30T09:03:01Z Vityok: PuercoPop: not works in my case, should I declare optimize debug? 2015-07-30T09:03:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:03:44Z PuercoPop: You can recompile the function or file with the prefix C-u to avoid typing 2015-07-30T09:03:45Z Vityok: I am running SLIME 2014-08-01 on SBCL 1.2.13 2015-07-30T09:04:09Z PuercoPop: so go to the file and press C-u C-c C-k for example and it will be recompiled with debug 3 2015-07-30T09:04:19Z Vityok: a miracle! 2015-07-30T09:05:09Z Vityok: PuercoPop: thanks! now it works - obviously I was lacking a proper debug setting to instrument the code with debug info 2015-07-30T09:05:48Z Vityok: I think this hint needs a separate blog post to make more people aware of this feature 2015-07-30T09:06:04Z PuercoPop: y place (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) in my ~/.sbclrc file 2015-07-30T09:07:43Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-30T09:07:48Z Vityok: I'm wondering if the author of the wonderful Debugging in Lisp series of posts would volunteer to write about this nice tip 2015-07-30T09:08:16Z Vityok: PuercoPop: or do you have a thematic blog? 2015-07-30T09:08:22Z Firedancer: I was just about to the mention that series 2015-07-30T09:08:52Z PuercoPop: I have a 'left for dead blog' which is perennial state of 'soon to restart' 2015-07-30T09:10:06Z PuercoPop: there is slime-tips.tumblr.com 2015-07-30T09:10:18Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T09:10:26Z PuercoPop: which has more than a couple of good tips (like C-c x to export) 2015-07-30T09:12:16Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:12:22Z Vityok: last time updated in 2012... 2015-07-30T09:14:06Z Firedancer: Well that is pretty new in Lisp world :D 2015-07-30T09:14:20Z PuercoPop: its tips are still valid 2015-07-30T09:15:41Z Vityok: here is the one we are discussing about: http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/post/11349664665/compilation-policies 2015-07-30T09:17:57Z salva quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T09:18:06Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:22:29Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T09:24:51Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T09:24:56Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:25:39Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:26:31Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T09:27:37Z Cymew: (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) and it's relation to (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) would be interesting to hear elucidated upon. 2015-07-30T09:27:58Z Cymew: Maybe it's the same thing, just implementation specific. I don't know myself. 2015-07-30T09:29:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T09:30:12Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:30:32Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:31:03Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-30T09:34:37Z PuercoPop: Cymew: they are different things a declaim can be be overridden with a declare, think of it as setting a default. 2015-07-30T09:36:22Z PuercoPop: hmm scratch that. It doesn't appear to be the case from clhs 2015-07-30T09:37:19Z sdemarre1 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:38:32Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-30T09:39:49Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:42:07Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:42:41Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-30T09:42:50Z mercwithamouth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T09:44:01Z Posterdati: hi 2015-07-30T09:44:34Z jackdaniel: hello 2015-07-30T09:45:08Z Posterdati: I've got a strange problem with clisp + gsll: when I try to (ql:quickload :gsll) the cffi-grovel::*cc-flags* contains ("<see above>") and compilation fails 2015-07-30T09:45:47Z jackdaniel: <see above> is about result of calling gcc - it isn't implemented in grovel for clisp apparently 2015-07-30T09:45:58Z jackdaniel: check cffi file invoke.lisp 2015-07-30T09:46:12Z jackdaniel: and implement it, if you want to see actual result in log 2015-07-30T09:46:15Z Posterdati: in cffi-grovel? 2015-07-30T09:46:19Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-07-30T09:46:25Z Posterdati: thanks 2015-07-30T09:46:46Z jackdaniel: you can also paste command it used in command line to see actual output, or use it outside emacs, but implementing it would be honest thing to do (if you send pull request) 2015-07-30T09:46:54Z jackdaniel: np, good luck :) 2015-07-30T09:47:11Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: our ecl project goes on 2015-07-30T09:47:51Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I did the i2c, pcf8574 and hitachi 44780 lcd driver 2015-07-30T09:47:52Z Vityok: Firedancer, PuercoPop: I've just emailed Michael - the author of that blog with this tip 2015-07-30T09:48:13Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: great :-) 2015-07-30T09:48:28Z Vityok: the malisper.me blog owner 2015-07-30T09:48:52Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: ecl's working nicely on the mips 2015-07-30T09:49:01Z jackdaniel: that's good 2015-07-30T09:49:23Z jackdaniel: check query window (wrote it there, because don't want to be accused of spammin ^_^) 2015-07-30T09:49:36Z jackdaniel: s/spammin/spaming/ 2015-07-30T09:50:27Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T09:51:13Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:52:07Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:54:09Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-30T09:56:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-30T09:57:34Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-30T10:05:19Z Vityok: btw, here is a video of SBCL running on RaspberryPI and toggling the LED light via Gpio 2015-07-30T10:05:20Z Vityok: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzUjweymw1U 2015-07-30T10:05:38Z Vityok: and a blog-post (in russian) http://turtle-bazon.blogspot.com/2015/07/raspberry-pi.html 2015-07-30T10:06:37Z Ven quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T10:08:42Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-30T10:11:26Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T10:17:35Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-30T10:18:56Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T10:20:16Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-30T10:23:36Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-07-30T10:24:29Z Firedancer: Ooo, that looks nice. Finally I could have some use for my Raspberry Pi board 2015-07-30T10:25:45Z askjvgd joined #lisp 2015-07-30T10:26:05Z askjvgd quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-30T10:29:26Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T10:29:56Z w37 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T10:31:09Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-30T10:36:23Z Cymew: I've been thinking of doing that for a while, but still have not figured out how to connect my Raspberry to some LEDs. 2015-07-30T10:40:46Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T10:43:03Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-30T10:47:38Z Guthur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T10:48:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-30T10:58:29Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T10:58:36Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-07-30T11:00:24Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T11:02:19Z resttime is now known as rest 2015-07-30T11:15:49Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-30T11:16:02Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T11:16:04Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-30T11:17:04Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-30T11:28:29Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-30T11:30:41Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T11:36:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T11:37:13Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T11:37:40Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-30T11:38:44Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-07-30T11:38:55Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-07-30T11:45:14Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-30T11:46:13Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-07-30T11:48:04Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-30T11:48:36Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T11:52:15Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-30T11:53:11Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T11:53:29Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T11:56:51Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:00:17Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:02:06Z farhaven quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1) 2015-07-30T12:02:35Z salv0 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:02:54Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:07:39Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:08:36Z francogrex: from my experience and others I see that there is a lack of what I call "backward compatibility" between sbcl and asd libraries 2015-07-30T12:08:36Z minion: francogrex, memo from pjb: that's why this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTSAiF9AHN4 doesn't exist, and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3keLeMwfHY doesn't exist. 2015-07-30T12:11:37Z francogrex: what do you mean doesn't exist? 2015-07-30T12:14:01Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-30T12:15:13Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T12:16:21Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T12:18:15Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:19:19Z rest quit (Quit: rest) 2015-07-30T12:20:55Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:22:01Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:24:11Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:25:44Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-30T12:30:01Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:30:25Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-30T12:31:56Z jesseman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T12:34:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:35:03Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:40:12Z Ven quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-30T12:40:38Z Ettore quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T12:40:50Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-30T12:41:47Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:42:51Z mercwithamouth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-30T12:45:16Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:46:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T12:46:05Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:46:22Z Ettore1 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:46:36Z Ettore quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T12:47:17Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:50:28Z Ettore1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T12:54:59Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-30T12:57:46Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:00:34Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-30T13:01:53Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:03:15Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:10:17Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:10:46Z theos: it says turing not turing complete 2015-07-30T13:12:17Z kbtr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T13:12:47Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T13:14:06Z jackdaniel: it doesn't have infinite tape, so nope, not turing machine :D 2015-07-30T13:17:09Z kbtr joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:17:11Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:17:40Z kbtr quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-30T13:18:22Z kbtr joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:23:44Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-30T13:23:48Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:25:17Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T13:25:36Z Mhoram quit (Quit: "Gone fishin'") 2015-07-30T13:26:28Z prphp joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:26:30Z mercwithamouth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T13:26:57Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:28:41Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T13:29:04Z bipt joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:31:03Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T13:33:06Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:33:39Z oleo: sup 2015-07-30T13:34:19Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-07-30T13:34:57Z oleo: hello 2015-07-30T13:35:32Z prphp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T13:36:07Z eudoxia: hi 2015-07-30T13:37:01Z oleo: hello eudoxia 2015-07-30T13:37:33Z eudoxia: hey everyone, did you hear we have Quicklisp badges for READMEs now. e.g.: https://github.com/eudoxia0/docparser#readme 2015-07-30T13:38:28Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:39:02Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:39:35Z iqool joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:40:34Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T13:44:30Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T13:45:35Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:47:11Z eudoxia: announcement: https://gist.github.com/fukamachi/104f19f3c61539edb24c 2015-07-30T13:48:23Z schjetne: eudoxia: neat. I just need to get something on Quicklisp. 2015-07-30T13:48:41Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T13:48:50Z mercwithamouth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T13:50:25Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:52:15Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:52:58Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T13:53:27Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T13:54:22Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:54:49Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T13:54:50Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:55:00Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:55:28Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-30T13:56:37Z iqool: putting (or nil 1 2) into the slime repl and pressing C-a C-c M-m yields a full expansion. (macroexpand '(or nil 1 2)) does not. Is there a way to get the full expansion in CL? 2015-07-30T13:57:09Z Vityok: eudoxia: great! 2015-07-30T13:57:16Z Vityok: and neat, btw 2015-07-30T13:57:59Z Ven quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T13:58:46Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T14:00:30Z Vityok: iqool: both ways give me the same result 2015-07-30T14:00:37Z jackdaniel: or isn't expanded 2015-07-30T14:01:07Z jackdaniel: iqool: you need code walker for that I think 2015-07-30T14:02:17Z Vityok: jackdaniel: it expands, one level 2015-07-30T14:02:43Z jackdaniel: I mean inner or 2015-07-30T14:02:53Z jackdaniel: won't get expanded with macroexpand 2015-07-30T14:04:46Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T14:06:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T14:08:11Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-30T14:08:20Z iqool quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-30T14:08:58Z blackwolf quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T14:11:20Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-30T14:13:50Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T14:15:06Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-30T14:17:16Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-30T14:17:38Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T14:18:26Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T14:19:16Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2015-07-30T14:19:21Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-30T14:22:43Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T14:26:33Z Cymew: Intriguing question: Is there another way to express (REVERSE (CDR (REVERSE data)))? 2015-07-30T14:28:42Z jackdaniel: (butlast data) ? 2015-07-30T14:30:07Z Cymew: It never cese to amaze me how much there is in CL, and how small a subset I use. 2015-07-30T14:30:14Z Cymew: Thanks, jackdaniel! 2015-07-30T14:30:22Z jackdaniel: yw :) 2015-07-30T14:30:51Z Cymew: Sorry "cease", naturally. 2015-07-30T14:30:54Z jackdaniel: I have my own butlast (designed better imho), which returns as a second value rest 2015-07-30T14:31:06Z jackdaniel: it's called originally butlast-1 2015-07-30T14:31:12Z Cymew: I could the use of that, indeed. 2015-07-30T14:31:16Z jackdaniel: suprisingly° 2015-07-30T14:31:27Z Cymew: But come on! 2015-07-30T14:31:28Z dlowe: Cymew: "ceases" :) 2015-07-30T14:31:48Z Cymew: I could *see* the use of that, indeed. 2015-07-30T14:31:59Z Cymew: dlowe: I'm a lost case today. 2015-07-30T14:32:10Z Cymew: Even worse than usual... 2015-07-30T14:32:12Z dlowe: Cymew: "cause" 2015-07-30T14:32:16Z dlowe: :D 2015-07-30T14:32:22Z Cymew: see? 2015-07-30T14:32:49Z Cymew feels like a suitcase 2015-07-30T14:33:19Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T14:34:53Z jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147895#1 - butlast-1-v3 is what you want 2015-07-30T14:37:22Z Cymew: Sweet looking utils. I usually don't use LAST, FIRST and those functions, instead fiddling with CDR/CAR. Sometimes I wonder if it makes me forget things like BUTLAST exist. 2015-07-30T14:38:19Z Cymew: Your variants I feel would sit fine in Alexandria or some utils collection like that. I've yet to find much of it suitable for me, but I like those. 2015-07-30T14:39:22Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-30T14:40:58Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T14:47:03Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T14:47:20Z superancetre: Hello everyone, is there a lint that i can get with quicklisp? i did find lisp-critic but i think its not on quicklisp yet 2015-07-30T14:47:56Z superancetre: lint as like hlint for haskell, something that evaluate the code and critique wrong way to write code 2015-07-30T14:48:44Z Atarian joined #lisp 2015-07-30T14:49:51Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-30T14:49:57Z reb``: superancetre: Take a look at https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf 2015-07-30T14:51:34Z beerbw joined #lisp 2015-07-30T14:54:26Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-30T14:54:53Z superancetre: reb``: thx you 2015-07-30T14:55:43Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-07-30T14:58:32Z Atarian: Does anyone know if the Mezzano OS project is still active? 2015-07-30T14:58:44Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-07-30T14:59:06Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-30T15:00:58Z edgar-rft: According to <https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano> the last commits are only a few days ago 2015-07-30T15:01:34Z beerbw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:02:32Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:04:16Z paddymahoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:04:36Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T15:04:53Z theverbg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T15:05:17Z salv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:08:12Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:08:35Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T15:09:44Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:12:09Z ronh quit 2015-07-30T15:13:26Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:16:58Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:17:06Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:17:29Z ronh joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:18:02Z brpocock joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:18:54Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:18:57Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:19:21Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T15:19:51Z ahungry_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:20:50Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:23:32Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:25:48Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:25:50Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:26:03Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:27:22Z Ven is now known as Guest11249 2015-07-30T15:27:51Z Guest11249 is now known as Ven_ 2015-07-30T15:28:08Z ehu1 is now known as ehu 2015-07-30T15:29:21Z dytrivedi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:29:22Z madmalik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:29:22Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:29:23Z CEnnis91 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:29:27Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:31:44Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:32:03Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T15:32:05Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:32:24Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:36:18Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T15:38:06Z pjb: iqool: use clisp, and: (ext:expand-form '(or nil 1 2)) 2015-07-30T15:38:29Z pjb: minion: memo for iqool: use clisp, and: (ext:expand-form '(or nil 1 2)) 2015-07-30T15:38:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell iqool when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-30T15:38:56Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:39:13Z pjb: minion: memo for iqool: otherwise, use swank, just like slime: (swank/backend:macroexpand-all '(or nil 1 2)) 2015-07-30T15:39:13Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell iqool when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-30T15:39:36Z pjb: jackdaniel: you don't need a code walker, you just need a good implementatation like clisp, or swank. 2015-07-30T15:40:31Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:41:02Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:42:04Z rebelshrug joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:42:44Z AndChat|228864 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:43:02Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T15:43:06Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:43:40Z pjb: jackdaniel: what about com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:nsplit-list ? 2015-07-30T15:44:14Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:44:26Z Atarian quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T15:45:29Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T15:45:32Z pjb: minion: memo for Atarian: so no, not active anymore. 2015-07-30T15:45:32Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Atarian when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-30T15:46:37Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-30T15:48:49Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T15:49:37Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:51:12Z mingvs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:52:56Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:53:17Z ahungry_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:53:37Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T15:55:55Z Neet quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:55:55Z ggherdov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:55:56Z asedeno quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:55:56Z l1x quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-07-30T15:55:56Z gendl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:55:56Z frankS2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:55:57Z joshmcmillan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T15:57:33Z jackdaniel: pjb: implementation extension isn't part of standard, he already knew how to do this with slime 2015-07-30T15:58:50Z pjb: But not from the REPL. 2015-07-30T15:59:00Z pjb: He asked how to do it from the REPL. 2015-07-30T15:59:28Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T15:59:32Z jackdaniel: "… full expansion in CL?" 2015-07-30T15:59:50Z jackdaniel: I bet diamonds against rocks, that he meant Common-Lisp, not clisp 2015-07-30T15:59:56Z AndChat|228864 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T16:00:08Z pjb: jackdaniel: yes, the standard allows for superset of the CL language, and expansions. 2015-07-30T16:00:19Z Atarian joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:00:33Z jackdaniel: yes, and to have such expansion in CL you need code-walker 2015-07-30T16:00:48Z jackdaniel: implementation-dependant extension hardly counts as "in CL" 2015-07-30T16:01:42Z pjb: I interpret this "in CL" as meaning "in the REPL", given how the sentence started. 2015-07-30T16:01:57Z jackdaniel: and I interpret it the other way around 2015-07-30T16:02:30Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T16:03:04Z asedeno joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:06:19Z Neet joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:06:45Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-07-30T16:07:47Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T16:07:59Z l1x joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:09:05Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:09:17Z superancetre quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-30T16:10:05Z AndChat|228864 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:10:22Z Atarian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T16:12:05Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:14:39Z madmalik joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:16:12Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:18:24Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-30T16:20:06Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:20:13Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T16:23:14Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-30T16:24:30Z frankS2 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:24:30Z AndChat|228864 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T16:26:35Z theverbg joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:29:04Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:29:30Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:30:33Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T16:30:51Z mncoder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T16:32:02Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:32:43Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T16:34:05Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:34:05Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-30T16:34:05Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:34:35Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:34:35Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-30T16:35:23Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:35:30Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:36:21Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:37:16Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T16:38:33Z joshmcmillan_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:40:11Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T16:40:58Z w37 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T16:41:27Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:46:58Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T16:49:55Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:49:59Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:52:52Z yakcc joined #lisp 2015-07-30T16:53:12Z yakcc quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-30T16:54:26Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T16:58:18Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:01:14Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:02:10Z yakcc joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:03:43Z yakccd joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:04:01Z loz1: hi, what is backquote in internal representation? like i can do 2015-07-30T17:04:01Z loz1: CL-USER> '`1 2015-07-30T17:04:01Z loz1: `1 2015-07-30T17:04:01Z loz1: CL-USER> (type-of *) 2015-07-30T17:04:01Z loz1: CONS 2015-07-30T17:04:02Z loz1: why is it cons? is there similar form as one for quote? 2015-07-30T17:04:44Z yakccd quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-30T17:04:50Z reb``: loz1: Do you know how to look up the answers to questions like this? 2015-07-30T17:04:59Z kilfer joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:06:04Z loz1: reb``: in hyperspec? 2015-07-30T17:06:20Z ngie joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:06:46Z reb``: In general. If you do an internet search for "backquote common lisp" you will get a lot of information, including entries in the hyperspec. 2015-07-30T17:07:05Z oGMo: heh 2015-07-30T17:07:16Z loz1: ye, you are right, sorry for that question 2015-07-30T17:08:13Z oGMo: loz1: sbcl? 2015-07-30T17:08:55Z reb``: loz1: Once you do a bit of reading, ask about details you don't understand. 2015-07-30T17:09:24Z oGMo: in this case that's a little more unhelpful than it could be :P 2015-07-30T17:09:46Z oGMo: you're more or less not grokking how the reader and printer works 2015-07-30T17:09:58Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:11:18Z oGMo: without knowing what CL you're using, it's a little hard to show in this case 2015-07-30T17:12:27Z reb``: loz1: In addition to the Hyperspec, I also like: http://franz.com/support/documentation/current/ansicl/ansicl.htm 2015-07-30T17:13:57Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:16:22Z |3b|: the results of READing a backquote form are unspecified, only the results of evaluating it are specified 2015-07-30T17:17:20Z phao joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:17:54Z phao: Hey... a while ago someone came in here to talk about an OS they did in common lisp. Do you people know where I can find out more about it? 2015-07-30T17:18:49Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-30T17:18:58Z John[Lisbeth] joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:18:59Z |3b|: in particular, implementations might use a more complicated representation to try to print it out in a form resembling the original input, though that doesn't always work out 2015-07-30T17:19:07Z phf: phao: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano 2015-07-30T17:19:43Z phao: thanks. 2015-07-30T17:19:55Z John[Lisbeth]: Okay I am in emacs, and stuck in the buffer editing a file. I want to exit the buffer, enter a buffer of a terminal, so I can talk to you guys in emacs. 2015-07-30T17:20:14Z phf: phao: i've not seen any written word on the subject, there's some conversation about it here and there in #osdev, but afaik there's only source code 2015-07-30T17:20:25Z phao: Ok 2015-07-30T17:21:48Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:22:14Z |3b|: John[Lisbeth]: emacs has a number of irc clients available, no need for a separate terminal if you are using it within emacs, but you can use C-x b to switch buffers 2015-07-30T17:22:49Z John[Lisbeth]: Okay how do I enter the package manager? 2015-07-30T17:22:59Z |3b|: or C-x 2 to split the frame to see both at once (#emacs is a better place to ask how to use emacs though) 2015-07-30T17:24:36Z mingvs joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:24:39Z John[Lisbeth]: I am lost when I don't have a terminal window open. 2015-07-30T17:24:50Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: M-x shell 2015-07-30T17:24:54Z jackdaniel: or M-x ansi-term 2015-07-30T17:24:58Z jackdaniel: or M-x eshell 2015-07-30T17:25:13Z John[Lisbeth]: is ansi common lisp and eshell elisp? 2015-07-30T17:26:59Z jackdaniel: ansi common lisp is common lisp, elisp is emacs lisp, your question doesn't make much sense 2015-07-30T17:27:09Z jackdaniel: eshell is dumb terminal emulator implemented in emacs lisp 2015-07-30T17:29:18Z John[Lisbeth]: That's what I mean. Eshell is elisp correct? 2015-07-30T17:30:41Z jackdaniel: eshell is written in elisp 2015-07-30T17:31:05Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:32:17Z John[Lisbeth]: cool. I am very lost and trying to get into irc 2015-07-30T17:32:42Z jackdaniel: try M-x erc 2015-07-30T17:33:01Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-30T17:33:07Z jackdaniel: and it's offtopic here anyways, you should try at #emacs 2015-07-30T17:34:12Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:34:22Z John[Lisbeth]: Somehjow I ended up in email and my email address includes tickle me because I don't have a proper http hostname 2015-07-30T17:34:29Z John[Lisbeth]: alright I'll try in emacs thanks 2015-07-30T17:35:10Z flash- joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:35:20Z jackdaniel: yw 2015-07-30T17:35:23Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-30T17:36:30Z pjb: loz1: backquote doesn't exist in "internal" representation. It's a reader macro character. Once it is read, you get a sexp. there's no backquote there. 2015-07-30T17:36:52Z pjb: loz1: it's like for parentheses. They don't exist in lisp: there are no parenthesis in lisp sexps, only cons cells and atoms. 2015-07-30T17:38:16Z John[Lisbeth] quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-30T17:38:48Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T17:40:38Z pjb: loz1: and it's the same for quote. #\' is a reader macro character so that 'x is read as (quote x) and obviously, (quote 1) is a list! 2015-07-30T17:41:07Z pjb: '`1 is equivalent to ''1 is equivalent to (quote (quote 1)) which is a list, which when evaluated, returns the list (quote x). 2015-07-30T17:41:19Z pjb: which is why (type-of '`1) --> cons 2015-07-30T17:41:51Z John[Lisbeth] joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:41:58Z pjb: Of course, I don't explain why `1 is equivalent to '1: this is written in the Hyperspec. 2015-07-30T17:42:04Z John[Lisbeth]: Ok i'm in erc, now. 2015-07-30T17:42:24Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-30T17:42:24Z loz1: pjb: thanks, ye I've read last part) 2015-07-30T17:42:51Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: congratulations! 2015-07-30T17:43:08Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:44:02Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:44:50Z mingvs quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-30T17:45:07Z mingvs joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:45:59Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:47:04Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: now you can bind C-x C-e to slime-eval-last-expression in erc buffers: http://paste.lisp.org/+39SD 2015-07-30T17:47:23Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: so I can tell you that (+ 1 2) --> 3 ;-) 2015-07-30T17:49:00Z loz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T17:49:14Z John[Lisbeth]: Oh so it's like a plugin for erc? 2015-07-30T17:49:30Z schjetne: I was looking at how Cocoa works to see if it's any good, and I discovered this Lisp GUI builder that begot the Interface Builder: https://vimeo.com/62618532 2015-07-30T17:49:33Z schjetne: Pretty interesting 2015-07-30T17:50:43Z John[Lisbeth]: Heh I don't know enough about the code to run that. 2015-07-30T17:52:20Z |3b|: pjb: they are only equivalent when evaluated, so '`1 doesn't have to READ as (quote (quote 1)), though it still pretty much has to be either a cons or 1 2015-07-30T17:53:21Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:54:17Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:55:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-30T17:55:53Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:56:05Z Wojciech_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:58:30Z Wojciech__ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T17:59:19Z Wojciech_K quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:00:32Z mingvs quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-30T18:00:33Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:01:00Z Wojciech_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:01:20Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:01:44Z mingvs joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:02:08Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:03:06Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-30T18:03:07Z mingvs quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-30T18:03:13Z John[Lisbeth]: Poll: What software are you using to run the emacs operating system? 2015-07-30T18:03:23Z eudoxia: debian 8 2015-07-30T18:03:37Z loz1: calculate / funtoo 2015-07-30T18:04:17Z loz1: and nix at work 2015-07-30T18:05:16Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:06:16Z schjetne: John[Lisbeth]: can you please take this to #emacs? 2015-07-30T18:06:33Z John[Lisbeth]: Lol, sorry. 2015-07-30T18:06:39Z schjetne: Or #lispcafe 2015-07-30T18:06:44Z John[Lisbeth]: oh cool 2015-07-30T18:06:56Z mingvs joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:07:35Z mingvs quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-30T18:07:41Z Wojciech__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:08:03Z diginet joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:08:17Z Wojciech_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:08:23Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T18:08:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:08:49Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:10:54Z Wojciech_K quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:12:06Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:13:19Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:13:42Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:17:41Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: yes, it's emacs lisp code to add a hook that is called when you join a channel, to set up an emacs key binding in those erc channel buffers, so that when you type C-x C-e, you get CL evaluation (thru your local slime) instead of the default emacs lisp evaluation. 2015-07-30T18:18:32Z ZabaQ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:19:03Z pjb: schjetne: you can take anything in computing, if it's any good, it has been invented with lisp! 2015-07-30T18:19:31Z pjb: Of course, Apple would have been dead by now, if it hadn't been for lisp and Interface Builder. 2015-07-30T18:19:34Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't have a local slime. that's the issue. I am trying to figure out the basics of emacs and get my emacs windows set up properly. So far I have irc set up. 2015-07-30T18:19:46Z loz1: pjb: file-like interface?) 2015-07-30T18:19:53Z KingNato joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:19:56Z pjb: can you remember the state of Apple Computer Inc just before they were bought by NeXTcomputer Inc? 2015-07-30T18:20:15Z pjb: (and I said it right: It's NeXTcomputer who bought Apple Computer, for -400 million dollars!) 2015-07-30T18:20:28Z pjb: Such was the state of Apple at the time. 2015-07-30T18:20:44Z John[Lisbeth] listens 2015-07-30T18:21:12Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started mentions quicklisp and how to use it to install slime. 2015-07-30T18:22:17Z pjb: schjetne: by the way, since NeXTSTEP was essential in the invention of the WWW, without Lisp, there would be no www as we know it nowadays. 2015-07-30T18:23:44Z pjb: The www could be invented because of the level of abstraction Interface Builder provided to NeXTSTEP programmers. Without it, perhaps we'd have had a bunch of iterations of crash C programs implementing half assed protocols? 2015-07-30T18:23:46Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:23:52Z pjb: I mean, things like gopher? 2015-07-30T18:24:37Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:27:38Z jebes: do you mean WWW as in tcp/ip or WWW as in HTTP? 2015-07-30T18:28:27Z xristos: jebes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee 2015-07-30T18:29:23Z jebes: Well, too bad the modern web is a horrible mess :/ 2015-07-30T18:29:59Z jeremiahlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:30:21Z _sjs_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:30:55Z easye` joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:31:00Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T18:31:04Z pjb: jebes: as in HTTP. 2015-07-30T18:31:06Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:31:07Z loz1: pjb: but still, about backquote and commas, I don't understand how can I expand them at read time 2015-07-30T18:31:30Z dmiles_akf joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:31:31Z loz1: read only produces language objects from their text form 2015-07-30T18:31:36Z pjb: jebes: yes, it makes one wonder. On the other hand, the first thing NeXTSTEP did was to rewrite Interface Builder in Objective-C, so we can blame the problems on that :-) 2015-07-30T18:31:50Z pjb: loz1: you don't. You just read them. 2015-07-30T18:31:57Z oGMo: loz1: you don't, they're expanded on evaluation 2015-07-30T18:31:57Z victor_lowther_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:32:03Z loz1: hm 2015-07-30T18:32:08Z oGMo: loz1: again, are you using SBCL? 2015-07-30T18:32:13Z pjb: loz1: now of course, some bad imlpementations will try to print the sexp they read from backquote as backquote so you will be puzzed. 2015-07-30T18:32:13Z jackdaniel: ,@,@hue-hue 2015-07-30T18:32:16Z splittist_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:32:41Z pjb: Instead, try: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list '`(1 ,a 2 ,@b 3)) 2015-07-30T18:32:45Z pjb: or some variant. 2015-07-30T18:32:49Z loz1: oGMo: I'm trying to understand how can they be expanded, regardless of implementation 2015-07-30T18:32:57Z cataska_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:33:00Z oGMo: loz1: you can't, because it's implementation-dependent 2015-07-30T18:33:03Z pjb: such as (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:print-conses '`(1 ,a 2 ,@b 3)) 2015-07-30T18:33:21Z rvirding_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:33:22Z oGMo: loz1: if you're using sbcl, type '(sb-int:quasiquote 1) at the repl (mind the first quote) 2015-07-30T18:33:35Z loz1: pjb: oGMo but there should be one more code walking after read then 2015-07-30T18:33:36Z lancetw_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:33:43Z pjb: what for? 2015-07-30T18:34:00Z loz1: to replace ` , and ,@ 2015-07-30T18:34:07Z oGMo: loz1: or, (car '`1) 2015-07-30T18:34:16Z pjb: loz1: you seem weak on the reader macro character notion. 2015-07-30T18:34:26Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:34:32Z holly joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:34:39Z verbgarden joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:34:40Z _sjs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T18:34:41Z CEnnis91 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:41Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:41Z cataska quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:42Z lancetw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:42Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:42Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:42Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:42Z easye quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:43Z splittist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:43Z victor_lowther quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:43Z theverbg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:43Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:44Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:44Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:44Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:44Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:44Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:34:44Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2015-07-30T18:34:44Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:34:46Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:34:46Z oGMo: (of course, that's specific to SBCL, and another implementation might produce something entirely different) 2015-07-30T18:34:54Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-30T18:34:56Z holly is now known as Guest35311 2015-07-30T18:34:57Z splittist_ is now known as splittist 2015-07-30T18:34:59Z loz1: pjb: thats true. I'm using peg to generate parser for me 2015-07-30T18:35:15Z loz1: I don't know if I can add reader macros to it 2015-07-30T18:35:27Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:35:33Z rvirding_ is now known as rvirding 2015-07-30T18:35:37Z oGMo: if you're trying to implement this and you're writing a PEG you're doing it wrong :P 2015-07-30T18:35:43Z pjb: You cannot. 2015-07-30T18:35:45Z pjb: It's impossible. 2015-07-30T18:35:52Z pjb: Lisp is not a context free language. 2015-07-30T18:36:14Z pjb: loz1: this is the first lesson of the introduction to compiler writing courses. 2015-07-30T18:36:22Z pjb: Chomsky language classification. 2015-07-30T18:36:31Z cataska_ is now known as cataska 2015-07-30T18:36:38Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy 2015-07-30T18:36:45Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-30T18:36:51Z pjb: Crazy people, they try to do thing without even learning the first less… 2015-07-30T18:37:12Z pjb: You need a turing machine to read lisp 2015-07-30T18:37:44Z victor_lowther_ is now known as victor_lowther 2015-07-30T18:38:35Z loz1: pjb: doing practical things is just more fun 2015-07-30T18:38:44Z oGMo: doing practical things is good 2015-07-30T18:38:51Z oGMo: doing things ignorantly is not 2015-07-30T18:38:52Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:39:39Z oGMo: you should definitely study the theory and practice of things you want to do, especially ones that are already widely-studied, then do practical things with that knowledge :P 2015-07-30T18:41:02Z loz1: so one have to implement its own parser for cl? 2015-07-30T18:41:14Z pjb: loz1: no it is not possible. 2015-07-30T18:41:16Z oGMo: you only need to implement a _reader_ 2015-07-30T18:41:23Z pjb: You need to implement a lisp to read lisp! 2015-07-30T18:42:14Z _sjs_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T18:42:32Z l1x joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:42:33Z loz1: oh cmon 2015-07-30T18:42:37Z loz1: there should be end somethere 2015-07-30T18:42:37Z pjb: Otherwise you won't be able to parse this lisp: (objcl:enable-objcl-reader-macro) (print [[NSString stringWithFormat:@"Hello %@",@"world"] length]) 2015-07-30T18:42:37Z prince_j1mmys joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:42:45Z pjb: Turing Machines. 2015-07-30T18:42:59Z pjb: We haven't invented computable functions that weren't computable by Turing Machine. 2015-07-30T18:43:24Z pjb: (ok, there's some level of circular definition here, but still). 2015-07-30T18:43:31Z oGMo: pjb: those owuld be not computable by definition :P 2015-07-30T18:43:46Z loz1: pjb: ok, but lets assume I'm trying to implement that first lisp 2015-07-30T18:43:47Z pjb: would they be functions? 2015-07-30T18:43:54Z oGMo: loz1: also note that if you can READ it, and perform some kind of EVAL on it, you have a lisp 2015-07-30T18:43:58Z pjb: loz1: ok. 2015-07-30T18:44:14Z jebes: the first lisp was just eval written in machine code, wasn't it? 2015-07-30T18:44:29Z loz1: pjb: will it not contain reader macros then? 2015-07-30T18:44:30Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:44:30Z pjb: loz1: you can implement a fixed subset of a s-exp syntax. I wouldn't care adding backquote to this subset. 2015-07-30T18:44:36Z fe[nl]ix: jebes: yes 2015-07-30T18:44:42Z pjb: loz1: you might do that. 2015-07-30T18:44:52Z pjb: Notice however, that adding reader macros is rather a simple part of the lisp reader. 2015-07-30T18:45:06Z oGMo: pjb: yes, you can have noncomputable or partially computable functions 2015-07-30T18:45:06Z prince_jammys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:45:09Z loz1: nice, at least something now is _possible_ 2015-07-30T18:45:10Z loz1: =) 2015-07-30T18:45:14Z pjb: dealing with escaping and package separators (:) is slightly more hairy. 2015-07-30T18:45:36Z oGMo: loz1: you might want to read the book "Lisp In Small Pieces," but i forget if it deals with writing a reader much 2015-07-30T18:45:46Z jebes: I can check, I have it beside me 2015-07-30T18:45:46Z oGMo: loz1: but it's about implementing a lisp 2015-07-30T18:45:47Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-07-30T18:45:57Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:46:08Z jebes: you'd be lucky to find a copy under $100 though... ;-; 2015-07-30T18:46:10Z oGMo: but writing a reader is pretty easy, so :P 2015-07-30T18:46:10Z loz1: I tried, it was too hardcore 2015-07-30T18:46:23Z oGMo: jebes: yeah i got the ebook for like $50 2015-07-30T18:46:30Z pjb: loz1: but if you want a subset of lisp reader that doesn't need to evaluate at read-time, so without reader macros, then I would advise against including backquote. 2015-07-30T18:46:40Z oGMo: nicely formatted and greppable .. almost preferable in that form 2015-07-30T18:46:49Z pjb: Keep it simple. 2015-07-30T18:46:49Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:47:07Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:47:18Z loz1: pjb: hm, I actually came to backquote trying to implement macros 2015-07-30T18:47:25Z jasom: sbcl.org is down agiain 2015-07-30T18:47:33Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-30T18:48:20Z pjb: loz1: you don't need that. Just use list list* cons append, etc. 2015-07-30T18:49:46Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:50:19Z eudoxia: sbcl.org just came back up 2015-07-30T18:50:44Z akkad: .oO(the whole website stored as an org-mode file) 2015-07-30T18:51:03Z loz1: pjb: ok, thanks) 2015-07-30T18:52:00Z Wojciech_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:52:01Z rpg: oGMo: wasn't there going to be a reissue of LiSP? Or was it made freely available as an ebook? 2015-07-30T18:52:05Z rpg has a vague memory 2015-07-30T18:52:31Z eudoxia: i do remember hearing something along those lines 2015-07-30T18:53:02Z Wojciech_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:53:18Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:54:03Z pjb: rpg: there's a 2nd edition of LiSP, (I have it), but it hasn't been translated (yet). Only in French. 2015-07-30T18:54:25Z Wojciech_K quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:54:32Z rpg: I looked for downloads and it looks like only sketchy (pirated) ones. 2015-07-30T18:55:53Z rpg: About $70 ebook from Amazon. Steep, but not outrageous considering the relatively small audience. 2015-07-30T18:57:08Z summersault joined #lisp 2015-07-30T18:57:43Z oGMo: rpg: dunno 2015-07-30T18:57:48Z Wojciech_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T18:58:52Z jlarocco_work: I thought sbcl.org came back up sometime last week 2015-07-30T18:59:12Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T18:59:13Z jlarocco_work: or did it go down again? 2015-07-30T18:59:18Z eudoxia: yeah it just went down again for a few hours 2015-07-30T18:59:27Z eudoxia: SourceForge ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2015-07-30T19:02:14Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-30T19:02:26Z chicote joined #lisp 2015-07-30T19:04:24Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-30T19:08:35Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T19:08:39Z Natch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T19:11:48Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T19:13:38Z flash- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T19:14:22Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-07-30T19:15:05Z troydm quit (Quit: What is hope? 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So you want something like (setf (symbol-value 'name) ... 2015-07-30T19:40:40Z rpg: agh! 2015-07-30T19:40:48Z rpg: I mean (symbol-function 'name) 2015-07-30T19:41:45Z loz1: rpg: I don't have setf yet) 2015-07-30T19:44:04Z loz1: > ((lambda (x) x) 5) -> 5 2015-07-30T19:44:04Z loz1: but 2015-07-30T19:44:04Z loz1: > ((symbol-function 'numberp) 1) -> ; illegal function call 2015-07-30T19:44:55Z loz1: what is the difference? looks like both expressions return functions 2015-07-30T19:45:06Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-30T19:46:43Z foom: ((lambda ...) 5) is syntax. 2015-07-30T19:47:07Z foom: there, it's not treated as an expression returning a function, it's actually special syntax 2015-07-30T19:48:36Z loz1: hm, its funny that I did it as special syntax too 2015-07-30T19:52:04Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T19:56:08Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-30T19:56:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T19:56:48Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-30T19:58:08Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-30T19:58:49Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T19:59:00Z jcmdln quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T20:01:51Z jcmdln joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:02:39Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:04:22Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T20:06:30Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:08:42Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:09:23Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:10:36Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T20:17:18Z k-stz: how do I dispatch on types? (defmethod foo (param (eql type))) ? 2015-07-30T20:21:37Z k-stz: eql is wrong, was from a keyword dispatch example 2015-07-30T20:21:48Z reb``: k-stz: Here's the documentation for defmethod: http://franz.com/support/documentation/current/ansicl/dictentr/defmetho.htm 2015-07-30T20:22:32Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T20:23:11Z k-stz: just read that common lisp can't dispatch on deftype introducesd types 2015-07-30T20:23:19Z reb``: You can specialize a method for a class, not for a type. 2015-07-30T20:23:44Z k-stz: and a build-in type 2015-07-30T20:25:14Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:25:33Z reb``: Consider the type defined by (deftype prime-number () '(satisfies prime-p)) 2015-07-30T20:25:52Z reb``: It would be hard to efficiently dispatch on that type. 2015-07-30T20:25:54Z k-stz: no wait that was a bad call, the build-in types only work because there are classes for those 2015-07-30T20:27:05Z k-stz: reb``: I see, didn't know the type test can call expensive operations like that 2015-07-30T20:29:24Z k-stz: though we could instantiate prime objects, and the runtime could just test for is-a-prime-object regardless of what is actually encapsulated 2015-07-30T20:31:49Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:33:06Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T20:33:06Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-30T20:35:22Z kaleun quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T20:36:24Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T20:37:36Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-30T20:39:03Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:40:57Z prince_jammys joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:41:14Z prince_j1mmys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T20:43:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:45:59Z prince_j1mmys joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:46:04Z prince_jammys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-30T20:49:42Z Marina18 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:50:14Z Marina18 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-30T20:50:23Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-30T20:50:26Z Marina18 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:50:36Z prince_j1mmys quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T20:50:57Z prince_jammys joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:51:03Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:51:45Z Marina18 quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-30T20:52:03Z Marina18 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T20:52:26Z Marina18 left #lisp 2015-07-30T20:53:55Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T20:54:47Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-30T20:59:55Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:01:19Z phao left #lisp 2015-07-30T21:03:11Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:03:28Z roscoe_t` joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:04:58Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:05:03Z Patzy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:05:08Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-30T21:05:22Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:22Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:22Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:23Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:23Z alex6407 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:23Z roscoe_tw quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:23Z prince_jammys quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:24Z K1rk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:24Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:24Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:25Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:25Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:25Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:05:25Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2015-07-30T21:06:01Z alex6407 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:06:02Z K1rk joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:06:11Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:06:12Z cods joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:07:24Z prince_jammys joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:08:10Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:08:12Z sdemarre1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:09:49Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:09:56Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:10:20Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:10:31Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:11:04Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:11:36Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:17:27Z jasom: loz1: The good news is that setf is almost trivial to implement; all the setf-expanders on the other hand take a while 2015-07-30T21:23:04Z jeremiahlarocco_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T21:23:07Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:23:16Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:23:28Z jeremiahlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:25:57Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T21:26:01Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:27:14Z knobo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-30T21:27:46Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:28:45Z knobo: In sbcl, when I run (cl-fad:list-directory ".") It returns some paths with latin1 characters, even though they are utf8 in the filesystem 2015-07-30T21:29:00Z knobo: how do I make cl-fad:list-directory return utf-8 names? 2015-07-30T21:29:10Z summersault quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T21:29:49Z knobo: The problem is of course that in the filesystem there can be both latin1 and utf8 filenames. 2015-07-30T21:32:22Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:33:02Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-07-30T21:34:21Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:41:14Z knobo: sb-impl::*default-external-format* is utf8 2015-07-30T21:42:43Z jasom: knobo: you can always hack it into working by converting to bytes and then to utf-8 2015-07-30T21:43:19Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:43:28Z knobo: jasom: yes, but I'd like to understand what's going on, and do it right. 2015-07-30T21:44:40Z Kenjin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T21:44:54Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-30T21:45:33Z jasom: knobo: I think it eventually boils down to a unix-realpath 2015-07-30T21:45:49Z jasom: which uses with-alien 2015-07-30T21:46:21Z eudoxia: knobo: consider uiop:directory-files and (uiop:directory #p"/your/path/*") 2015-07-30T21:48:13Z jasom: I don't see anything in the docs for the default value for external-format for sb-alien:c-string 2015-07-30T21:48:57Z peterhil quit (Quit: Must not waste too much time here...) 2015-07-30T21:50:34Z knobo: uiop:directory-files did not do any better 2015-07-30T21:50:47Z jasom: knobo: ah, if you bind *default-c-string-external-format* it should use utf-8 for all strings coming from alien calls 2015-07-30T21:51:22Z knobo: SB-ALIEN::*DEFAULT-C-STRING-EXTERNAL-FORMAT* is utf-8 2015-07-30T21:51:30Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-30T21:54:05Z futpib quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T21:54:17Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-07-30T21:54:24Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T21:54:41Z knobo: one of the elements in the namestring: 69: #\LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_O_WITH_STROKE 2015-07-30T21:55:22Z knobo: But when I use convmv, convmv says the filename is already utf-8 2015-07-30T21:55:44Z jasom: knobo: do something like ls|xxd to check 2015-07-30T21:58:05Z jasom: knobo: I just tested here, and I get utf-8 listings 2015-07-30T21:58:09Z knobo: hmmm... LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH STROKE is actually the name of the caracter, and does not say if it is latin1 or not. 2015-07-30T21:58:16Z reb``: knobo: What kind of computer system are you using? 2015-07-30T21:58:17Z knobo: I'm wrong, it think 2015-07-30T21:58:30Z knobo: reb``: laptop :P 2015-07-30T21:58:37Z reb``: What operating system? 2015-07-30T21:58:37Z jasom: knobo: that is correct, it's a lowercase latin o with a stroke 2015-07-30T21:59:06Z chicote quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T21:59:18Z knobo: Maybe it is utf-8 after all. 2015-07-30T22:01:09Z jasom: knobo: like I said, check ls|xxd to look at the binary encoding, or just create a file with a code point above 256 2015-07-30T22:01:15Z knobo: How can I tell if it is utf-8 string or latin1 string in common lisp? 2015-07-30T22:01:26Z jasom: knobo: string's dont have encodings in common lisp 2015-07-30T22:01:37Z jasom: s/string's/strings 2015-07-30T22:01:45Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T22:02:25Z brpocock: knobo: (print (cons (software-type) (machine-type))) 2015-07-30T22:02:28Z jasom: strings are just vectors of characters 2015-07-30T22:02:52Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:03:24Z knobo: brpocock: ("Linux" . "X86-64") 2015-07-30T22:03:48Z reb``: knobo: Ah, finally, some indication of where the file names are coming from. 2015-07-30T22:04:17Z brpocock: Linux will usually convert everything to UTF-8 then, whatever the charset is that's actually stored in the directory-file on disc … 2015-07-30T22:04:25Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:04:27Z reb``: no 2015-07-30T22:04:45Z brpocock: assuming the locale, mount are set up properly to begin-with 2015-07-30T22:05:00Z reb``: knobo / brpocock: Lunix does not implement any kind of file name encoding. 2015-07-30T22:05:32Z reb``: The "locale" is a shell environment variable that affect some user-level software. 2015-07-30T22:06:18Z jasom: reb``: including e.g. "ls" 2015-07-30T22:06:20Z brpocock: EG, mount option iocharset 2015-07-30T22:07:10Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:07:47Z reb``: brpocock: iocharset is not for Unix file systems. 2015-07-30T22:08:23Z jasom: note that you can't use utf-16 for filenames, as embedded null characters are forbidden 2015-07-30T22:08:42Z knobo: I have found the problem 2015-07-30T22:08:47Z knobo: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-coreutils/2007-01/msg00114.html 2015-07-30T22:09:17Z knobo: I have never used mac, and I already hate it :( 2015-07-30T22:09:46Z jasom: knobo: that only affects alignment of columns, right? 2015-07-30T22:10:00Z knobo: Maybe I pasted wrong bug. 2015-07-30T22:10:24Z knobo: But looks like all the files I got starts with "1b 5b " 2015-07-30T22:10:29Z knobo: ls | hexdump -C 2015-07-30T22:11:00Z ceryo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-30T22:11:03Z jasom: anyway doesn't OS X use a BSD ls by default? 2015-07-30T22:11:20Z reb``: jasom: Locale affects how "ls" orders the output, but it does not affect how the file names are presented. ls dumps the raw octets to your terminal. 2015-07-30T22:11:20Z cyphase quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-07-30T22:11:33Z jasom: reb``: absolutely not true 2015-07-30T22:12:03Z knobo: Looks like my linux is making theese files 2015-07-30T22:12:29Z reb``: jasom: ok, which part is untrue? 2015-07-30T22:12:55Z jasom: reb``: ls -d *Piaf => Édith Piaf ;; LANG=en_US.latin1 ls -d *Piaf => ??dith Piaf 2015-07-30T22:13:21Z knobo: I'm too tired to deal with this now. 2015-07-30T22:13:26Z knobo: I have to do it tomorrow. 2015-07-30T22:13:30Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:13:41Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:14:35Z jasom: reb``: hmm, I'm wrong apparently as the binary output is the same. Not sure why it displays differently 2015-07-30T22:14:46Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:15:04Z reb``: ok, it substitutes '?' for invalid characters ... the presentation of the É is done by your terminal program and could be different if the terminal thinks you are not using utf-8. 2015-07-30T22:15:30Z jasom: how does the terminal know what the local environment of ls is? 2015-07-30T22:15:41Z reb``: It doesn't. 2015-07-30T22:15:59Z reb``: How did you test for identical binary output? 2015-07-30T22:16:04Z jasom: reb``: piped to xxd 2015-07-30T22:16:21Z jasom: but that doesn't allocate a pty and ls behaves differently with or without pty's so... 2015-07-30T22:16:22Z reb``: That's the problem. ls behaves differently when its output is a pipe. 2015-07-30T22:16:42Z reb``: Compare 'ls' to 'ls | cat' 2015-07-30T22:18:16Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:18:56Z jasom: ah, I captured it with script and it does output 3f3f with the different locale 2015-07-30T22:19:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:19:16Z reb``: Anyway, all of this is off topic for #lisp. The essential issue is that Linux file names are not encoded strings, but arrays of arbitrary bytes. On your personal system you may use a convention ... such as encoding all file names with utf-8. 2015-07-30T22:19:21Z knobo: but again I'm wrong. I have to stop woking at night. 2015-07-30T22:19:25Z brpocock: when called as 'dir', 'ls' ignores pty, IIRC. 2015-07-30T22:19:30Z knobo: That's still not my problem. 2015-07-30T22:21:09Z prince_j1mmys joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:21:41Z prince_jammys quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:23:14Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:23:27Z knobo: how can I make sldb show hex numbers instead of dec? 2015-07-30T22:24:47Z reb``: knobo: If you have file names on your system with illegal utf-8 byte sequences, you cannot tell Lisp that your file names are encoded utf-8 strings. 2015-07-30T22:24:59Z cyphase quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T22:27:58Z cyphase_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:28:50Z knobo: Thank you for the help. I got to sleep now. 2015-07-30T22:28:54Z knobo: good night. 2015-07-30T22:30:47Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T22:31:19Z prince_jammys joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:31:47Z cyphase_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T22:32:48Z prince_j1mmys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:33:17Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:35:03Z mercwithamouth joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:37:17Z cyphase_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:38:20Z prince_j1mmys joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:39:39Z prince_jammys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:41:04Z _sjs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T22:41:10Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:41:12Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T22:41:16Z cyphase_ is now known as cyphase 2015-07-30T22:41:58Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:43:36Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:45:15Z cyphase quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T22:46:48Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:46:59Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:48:35Z ziocroc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T22:50:36Z drmeister: I just wrote this blog post comparing CClasp generated code to C, SBCL and Python. 2015-07-30T22:50:36Z drmeister: https://drmeister.wordpress.com/2015/07/30/timing-data-comparing-cclasp-to-c-sbcl-and-python/ 2015-07-30T22:50:50Z drmeister: CClasp is only about 4x slower than C/SBCL 2015-07-30T22:50:56Z prince_jammys joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:52:09Z prince_j1mmys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:52:09Z eudoxia quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:52:13Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:52:15Z ehu1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-30T22:52:47Z dkcl is now known as dickle 2015-07-30T22:53:18Z akkad: impressive 2015-07-30T22:54:14Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:54:37Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T22:54:38Z kristof is impressed 2015-07-30T22:54:48Z kristof: drmeister: How does the generic function dispatch compare at the moment? 2015-07-30T22:54:57Z jasom: That's what, 25x faster than it was only a few months ago, right? 2015-07-30T22:55:25Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-30T22:57:45Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: very nice, indeed 2015-07-30T23:02:20Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-30T23:02:53Z mercwithamouth quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-30T23:04:36Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-30T23:05:00Z scymtym: drmeister: very interesting. i have a few suggestions: the relation between the timing table and the listing is not entirely clear (at least to me) - in particular the "C" and "CClasp" rows. does the "C" timing correspond to the "C++" code (first listing)? did CClasp compile and run the code in the "Common Lisp" listing? why is there no "plain" C version when the descriptions suggests that C, SBCL, CClasp and Python are compared? it 2015-07-30T23:05:00Z scymtym: would also help to include implementation versions (in particular CPython version X.Y vs. other Python implementations). 2015-07-30T23:05:34Z drmeister: jasom: At least. 2015-07-30T23:05:37Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-30T23:06:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T23:06:17Z drmeister: scymtym: Yes, I'm conflating C and C++ because with this integer code they are pretty much equivalent. 2015-07-30T23:06:35Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2015-07-30T23:06:41Z drmeister: I'll change it to C++ 2015-07-30T23:07:49Z drmeister: Agh - it's in the figure. (sigh) 2015-07-30T23:08:19Z cyphase quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-30T23:08:22Z scymtym: drmeister: that would help. i still find it slightly surprising that there is no "plain" C/C++ version. do you call the C/C++ version from Clasp in order to be able to measure with CL:TIME? 2015-07-30T23:08:32Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T23:11:19Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-30T23:12:00Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-30T23:12:31Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-07-30T23:13:13Z scymtym: drmeister: i see, thanks 2015-07-30T23:14:47Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-30T23:15:42Z cyphase quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T23:17:10Z cyphase_ joined #lisp 2015-07-30T23:19:38Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T23:21:51Z RedEight joined #lisp 2015-07-30T23:26:39Z brpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T23:27:54Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-30T23:30:10Z verbgarden quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-30T23:32:31Z lancetw_ is now known as lancetw 2015-07-30T23:33:03Z eudoxia_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-30T23:34:47Z yrdz` joined #lisp 2015-07-30T23:35:01Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-30T23:35:46Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-30T23:38:15Z ebrasca` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-30T23:42:00Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-30T23:45:09Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-07-30T23:46:07Z yrdz` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-30T23:52:32Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-30T23:52:56Z RedEight quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-30T23:54:49Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-30T23:55:19Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-30T23:57:29Z clop2: what is the difference between signal and throw? is it the same? 2015-07-30T23:57:52Z White_Flame: throw is a non-local return, sort of like setjmp/longjmp 2015-07-30T23:58:28Z White_Flame: by "signal" do you mean a Lisp condition that is raised, or a posix signal? 2015-07-30T23:58:36Z clop2: the Lisp signal function i mean 2015-07-30T23:58:56Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-07-30T23:59:04Z White_Flame: oh wait, nevermind, yeah, I don't use #'SIGNAL 2015-07-30T23:59:17Z White_Flame: but yes, those are 2 separate mechanisms 2015-07-30T23:59:47Z White_Flame: there is no relation to error handling in throw 2015-07-31T00:00:26Z White_Flame: it is purely for non-local returning of control and/or value 2015-07-31T00:00:32Z clop2: ok thanks, i'm hacking on a program that uses throw/catch and was trying to suppress errors, and it wasn't working to do like a handler-case that catches error 2015-07-31T00:00:42Z clop2: i guess i need to have the handler case AND a catch 2015-07-31T00:00:43Z White_Flame: signal handlers run without unrolling the stack; they take place where the condition occurred 2015-07-31T00:01:02Z clop2: oooh weird 2015-07-31T00:01:03Z White_Flame: errors don't cause THROW 2015-07-31T00:02:07Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:02:22Z White_Flame: with handler-case, I believe the stack is unwound to the case form 2015-07-31T00:02:52Z White_Flame: the raw condition handlers take place right where the condition is raised; stuff like handler-case is built up on top of that 2015-07-31T00:03:24Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:03:24Z White_Flame: (depending on implementation, but can be conceptually considered a higher-level situation) 2015-07-31T00:03:31Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:03:44Z Quadrescence quit (Changing host) 2015-07-31T00:03:44Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:03:53Z White_Flame: I don't know what to tell you if the lib you're using does use throw/catch for error handling, though. You have to catch the specific tags that are being thrown 2015-07-31T00:04:12Z White_Flame: but if you look into it, hopefully the throw/catch isn't error-related in there 2015-07-31T00:04:35Z peterhil joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:05:30Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:05:30Z peterhil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T00:06:39Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T00:08:35Z Takumo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T00:09:02Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-31T00:09:25Z spyrosoft: Is there a trick to using reduce with a macro rather than a function other than wrapping the macro in a lambda? For example: http://paste.lisp.org/+39SM 2015-07-31T00:09:43Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:09:43Z Takumo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-31T00:09:43Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:10:37Z White_Flame: the problem isn't with reduce, it's with OR. It's a macro, not a function 2015-07-31T00:10:52Z spyrosoft: That's my point 2015-07-31T00:11:03Z jebes: use #'some 2015-07-31T00:11:18Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:11:50Z White_Flame: right, wrapping may or may not be reasonable, depending on how much decision making the macro performs on the source 2015-07-31T00:12:31Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:12:52Z spyrosoft: Or was just a simple example 2015-07-31T00:16:01Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-31T00:16:03Z spyrosoft: Maybe I can find my answer in the source of the `some' function. What's a good way to locate example source code of built in Common Lisp functions? 2015-07-31T00:16:49Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:17:53Z PuercoPop: spyrosoft: slime-who-calls for examples 2015-07-31T00:17:57Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:18:04Z rpg_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-31T00:18:05Z White_Flame: in SLIME, hit Alt-. to jump to the source of a symbol 2015-07-31T00:18:16Z White_Flame: depending on your installation, that can hit the implementation you're actually using 2015-07-31T00:18:21Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-07-31T00:18:25Z White_Flame: (Meta-. to be precise) 2015-07-31T00:19:08Z spyrosoft: That's fantastic 2015-07-31T00:19:27Z PuercoPop: but as jebes said, use some. ie (some #'identity <your-list>) 2015-07-31T00:19:56Z spyrosoft: Oh, I see. Thank you for clarifying. 2015-07-31T00:21:09Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T00:22:32Z spyrosoft: Silly question: what's the predicate for T? 2015-07-31T00:23:53Z MasterPiece quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T00:23:55Z Adlai: afaik, there is none... (curry 'eq t) ? 2015-07-31T00:24:17Z spyrosoft: Actually, it seems to be the same issue. (some #'or (list nil t)) returns the same error as reduce. 2015-07-31T00:24:20Z White_Flame: I presume checking for the literal symbol T, instead of just "true" (ie, non-nil?) then yeah, eq t 2015-07-31T00:24:35Z White_Flame: OR isn't a function 2015-07-31T00:24:36Z PuercoPop: spyrosoft: as White_Flame told you or is _not_ a function 2015-07-31T00:24:37Z White_Flame: you can't take #"OR 2015-07-31T00:24:41Z White_Flame: (or #'OR) 2015-07-31T00:24:48Z PuercoPop: use #'identity 2015-07-31T00:25:03Z White_Flame: that's like taking #'WITH-OPEN-FILE or something; it's not semantically possible 2015-07-31T00:25:53Z White_Flame: #'identity would return for truth, not for the literal symbol T 2015-07-31T00:25:56Z White_Flame: depends on what you need 2015-07-31T00:25:59Z spyrosoft: Please forgive my being dense, was my original question answered? Is there a completely different way to handle reducing using macros? 2015-07-31T00:26:16Z White_Flame: you can't pass macros arouund as you do functions 2015-07-31T00:26:41Z White_Flame: so instead of using OR, you have to use either a little custom predicate, or rewrite to using SOME or something 2015-07-31T00:27:14Z White_Flame: the reason OR is a macro and not a function is that functions evaluate all of their parameters before calling the function 2015-07-31T00:27:20Z spyrosoft: Can't pass macros like passing functions. Got it. 2015-07-31T00:27:20Z White_Flame: that would prevent short-circuiting from happening 2015-07-31T00:28:05Z White_Flame: so (funcall #'or (setf a 1) (setf b 2)) would break the operation of OR, since it wouldn't be allowed to shortcut its parameter expressions 2015-07-31T00:28:22Z spyrosoft: Ah, I see. 2015-07-31T00:29:04Z White_Flame: but yeah, a function equivalent to OR'ing two values, instead of doing that type of evalution, is a bit of a hole in the standard function library 2015-07-31T00:29:18Z White_Flame: (or even s/two values/a list of values/) 2015-07-31T00:29:32Z White_Flame: but it can be done other ways, like SOME 2015-07-31T00:29:44Z eazar_buzzcut joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:30:31Z RussT1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-31T00:31:00Z spyrosoft: Makes sense. Thank you. 2015-07-31T00:31:05Z White_Flame: np 2015-07-31T00:32:02Z White_Flame: to continue preaching to the choir, macros work on source code. Once you try to apply a passed-around function to parameters, you're not giving it source code, you're giving it runtime values 2015-07-31T00:33:22Z KingNato quit (Quit: KingNato) 2015-07-31T00:35:10Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T00:35:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:36:47Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:37:22Z warweasle: I really like gambol. So whichever one of you did it, thank you! 2015-07-31T00:39:07Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:45:08Z eazar_buzzcut is now known as eazar_going_bald 2015-07-31T00:49:39Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T00:51:30Z badkins quit 2015-07-31T00:52:14Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T00:55:40Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-31T00:59:25Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:02:12Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:10:20Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:10:21Z warweasle left #lisp 2015-07-31T01:10:36Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-31T01:10:55Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:11:09Z gabriel_laddel: ql:find-dist always fails for me? 2015-07-31T01:11:46Z edran quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-07-31T01:11:51Z edran_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:12:16Z gabriel_laddel: e.g., I've got fare-quasiquote in my dists, but (ql::find-dist "fare-quasiquote") ;; => nil 2015-07-31T01:12:30Z gabriel_laddel: though it appears I can (ql::find-dist "quicklisp") 2015-07-31T01:12:34Z gabriel_laddel quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-31T01:13:43Z Oberon4278 quit 2015-07-31T01:17:47Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:19:42Z roscoe_t` is now known as roscoe_tw 2015-07-31T01:19:42Z aap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T01:20:00Z aap joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:23:59Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T01:27:30Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:28:49Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T01:28:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T01:30:07Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-31T01:35:31Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:36:07Z spyrosoft quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-31T01:49:44Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:52:49Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T01:55:07Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:57:01Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:57:10Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T01:58:25Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-07-31T01:59:59Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-31T02:01:10Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-31T02:07:54Z rritoch quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T02:12:16Z rritoch joined #lisp 2015-07-31T02:13:21Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T02:14:40Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-07-31T02:19:21Z Lycurgus: defrest is the only cl REST thing? 2015-07-31T02:19:51Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T02:20:18Z cyphase_ is now known as cyphase 2015-07-31T02:20:48Z badkins quit 2015-07-31T02:20:49Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T02:22:10Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-07-31T02:25:23Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-07-31T02:33:04Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-31T02:35:43Z Lycurgus: oh forgot about RESTAS 2015-07-31T02:35:57Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-31T02:43:35Z akkad: ningle? 2015-07-31T02:43:40Z akkad: rest framework? 2015-07-31T02:44:19Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-31T02:45:03Z eazar_going_bald is now known as eazar_lotta_typo 2015-07-31T02:45:38Z eazar_lotta_typo is now known as eazar_lottatypos 2015-07-31T02:48:26Z Lycurgus: ty, do see it has the verbs? 2015-07-31T02:50:40Z Lycurgus: s/verbs?/verbs/ 2015-07-31T02:51:08Z Lycurgus: odd, don't recall putting the question mark 2015-07-31T02:52:50Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-31T03:03:27Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T03:07:14Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T03:07:59Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-07-31T03:08:36Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-31T03:11:48Z CrLF0710 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T03:13:02Z verbgarden joined #lisp 2015-07-31T03:13:13Z akkad: it's a Thinatra clone 2015-07-31T03:13:34Z akkad: from that awesome Emacs based el-node framework which was based on Ruby Sinatra 2015-07-31T03:14:11Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T03:15:21Z meiji11 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T03:17:48Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T03:25:34Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T03:27:35Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T03:28:45Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T03:30:48Z eazar_lottatypos is now known as eazar_debugged 2015-07-31T03:38:41Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T03:43:40Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-07-31T03:47:49Z ngie quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T03:48:15Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T03:54:33Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-31T03:55:17Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-31T03:57:22Z beach joined #lisp 2015-07-31T03:57:28Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-07-31T03:57:34Z Oladon: Evening beach :) 2015-07-31T04:00:55Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:01:16Z jsgrant- joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:03:01Z Borbus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T04:03:53Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-07-31T04:12:39Z s00pcan quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-07-31T04:16:04Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:16:16Z CrLF0710 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T04:19:09Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:21:22Z Guest35311 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T04:24:49Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:24:49Z White_Flame quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T04:28:28Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:29:02Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:29:16Z kolko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T04:31:44Z Guest35311 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:32:13Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:34:24Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-31T04:36:00Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-31T04:37:02Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:37:44Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:40:41Z les: Is there a way using sbcl to determine which os on which the program is being executed at either run or compile time? My google-fu is apparently weak tonight 2015-07-31T04:41:29Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:43:44Z keen__________33 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:44:10Z les: bah found it finally. (software-type) 2015-07-31T04:44:20Z les: i knew it had to be something simple and obvious 2015-07-31T04:44:26Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-31T04:44:44Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T04:44:52Z keen__________32 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-31T04:52:33Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:55:16Z acewonder6743 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T04:59:37Z acewonder6743: For a noob who wants to get up to speed with programming relatively quick, is SICP good for that (I've a lot of free-time for the time being)? 2015-07-31T05:00:42Z acewonder6743: I only ask that here because I hear that SICP uses a LISP. 2015-07-31T05:00:58Z theos: acewonder6743 read "ANSI Common Lisp" if you have a lot of time. 2015-07-31T05:01:14Z oleo_: morning 2015-07-31T05:01:17Z oleo_: sicp is scheme! 2015-07-31T05:01:24Z oleo_: another dialect of lisp 2015-07-31T05:01:43Z oleo_: try gentle intro 2015-07-31T05:01:55Z oleo_: to common lisp 2015-07-31T05:02:11Z oleo_: together with sicp maybe 2015-07-31T05:02:13Z jibanes: is there any language really as powerful as common lisp 2015-07-31T05:02:14Z White_Flame: les: there's also usually some platform terms in *FEATURES* 2015-07-31T05:02:32Z jibanes: or should I rephrase this as: as complete as CL 2015-07-31T05:02:56Z White_Flame: CL is pretty incomplete if you look at platform/OS support 2015-07-31T05:03:03Z theos: Land of Lisp is good too. 2015-07-31T05:04:03Z theos: CL is a powerful base for developing a very powerful system. you can just keep building on CL 2015-07-31T05:04:36Z White_Flame: theos: right, so I wouldn't necessarily call it "more complete" than other languages that already built up a bunch of support for particular features 2015-07-31T05:04:46Z White_Flame: though are certainly not as flexible as Lisp 2015-07-31T05:05:01Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T05:05:11Z acewonder6743: theos: Is Land of Lisp an intro book? 2015-07-31T05:05:23Z theos: White_Flame true 2015-07-31T05:05:23Z White_Flame: acewonder6743: yes, it's about learning Lisp by writing games 2015-07-31T05:05:33Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T05:05:45Z theos: acewonder6743 what White_Flame__ said 2015-07-31T05:06:31Z jibanes: is there an easy way to bring namespaces to CL? 2015-07-31T05:06:42Z jibanes: I mean I understand it would be some special add-on 2015-07-31T05:06:52Z jibanes: or really it's not meant to be used this way 2015-07-31T05:07:43Z rritoch quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-31T05:08:06Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T05:08:11Z White_Flame: jibanes: define namespaces? 2015-07-31T05:08:16Z Lycurgus: there's been stuff like that (other than regular pkgs) 2015-07-31T05:08:31Z Lycurgus: anything like that in lisp there's been something 2015-07-31T05:08:59Z jibanes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namespace 2015-07-31T05:09:39Z White_Flame: so basically, nesting? 2015-07-31T05:09:49Z jibanes: not exactly 2015-07-31T05:10:05Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T05:10:20Z White_Flame: that's the primary difference I see between CL packages & other language's namespaces 2015-07-31T05:10:22Z jibanes: think like a variable would be invisible to another namespace 2015-07-31T05:10:38Z jibanes: but then comes the concept of inheritance too 2015-07-31T05:10:44Z White_Flame: (s/language's/languages'/) 2015-07-31T05:11:26Z White_Flame: so, since CL packages already manage both visibility and inheritance, what specifically is left? 2015-07-31T05:12:00Z jibanes: well, that might be a way 2015-07-31T05:12:04Z jibanes: I'll have to study this 2015-07-31T05:12:42Z White_Flame: nesting is the primary difference 2015-07-31T05:12:42Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T05:12:58Z jibanes: to define a namespace properly, you shouldn't be able to access objects from another namespace 2015-07-31T05:13:07Z jibanes: nor even see if they exist 2015-07-31T05:13:13Z White_Flame: even if you use a namespace declaration? 2015-07-31T05:13:14Z jibanes: I think that's a fundamental difference, BUT 2015-07-31T05:13:23Z White_Flame: sym1 sym2 foreign-namespace:sym3? 2015-07-31T05:13:24Z jibanes: that might work 2015-07-31T05:13:40Z jibanes: hm, no 2015-07-31T05:14:04Z jibanes: would all the "objects" of foreign-namespace be visible to foreign-namespace2? 2015-07-31T05:14:20Z jibanes: or say, accessible 2015-07-31T05:14:27Z beach: jibanes: You are confused. 2015-07-31T05:14:37Z beach: jibanes: You don't want to make such access impossible. 2015-07-31T05:14:43Z White_Flame: if something is "public" within a namespace, then it's visible by absolute path declaration to anybody 2015-07-31T05:14:46Z beach: jibanes: Because then you can't write a debugger. 2015-07-31T05:14:52Z jibanes: most languages do not completely segregate them 2015-07-31T05:14:53Z beach: jibanes: You have to trust the programmer. 2015-07-31T05:15:04Z jibanes: the debugger should be able to enter namespaces 2015-07-31T05:15:23Z beach: jibanes: In Common Lisp, the debugger is just normal Common Lisp code. 2015-07-31T05:15:26Z jibanes: right 2015-07-31T05:15:30Z beach: ... as it should be. 2015-07-31T05:15:41Z beach: jibanes: But you should require that the programmer take special action in order to "break the rules". 2015-07-31T05:15:48Z jibanes: so, the namespace implementation is there, just not contextual, if I may call it this way. 2015-07-31T05:15:53Z beach: jibanes: And you should warn the programmer if he/she is trying to do so. 2015-07-31T05:16:04Z White_Flame: jibanes: the only difference between lisp packages & other namespace systems is the concept of nesting 2015-07-31T05:16:10Z White_Flame: jibanes: unless you see anything different 2015-07-31T05:16:18Z beach: jibanes: the package system does everything that is required for your "namespaces". 2015-07-31T05:16:22Z White_Flame: items within namespaces can be made "public", or kept private within the namespace 2015-07-31T05:16:24Z jibanes: no I think I understand 2015-07-31T05:16:34Z jibanes: that is good actually 2015-07-31T05:16:47Z jibanes: I prefer this kind of implementation (not complete, but most usable) 2015-07-31T05:16:59Z beach: jibanes: In addition, this being Common Lisp, you can manipulate the packages programmatically. 2015-07-31T05:17:08Z jibanes: explain this further please 2015-07-31T05:17:29Z beach: jibanes: A package is a first-class Common Lisp object, so you can write code to add names to it. 2015-07-31T05:17:40Z jibanes: right, of course. 2015-07-31T05:17:47Z beach: jibanes: As opposed to some languages, where namespaces are only known to the compiler. 2015-07-31T05:17:56Z jibanes: can CL code be multithreaded? 2015-07-31T05:18:01Z White_Flame: yes 2015-07-31T05:18:01Z loke: jibanes: yes 2015-07-31T05:18:14Z jibanes: is there a mutex-like kind of locking? 2015-07-31T05:18:21Z White_Flame: it's not in the spec, though, but bordeaux-threads is a very common package for doing thread stuff 2015-07-31T05:18:34Z jibanes: good to know 2015-07-31T05:18:37Z jibanes: interesting name 2015-07-31T05:18:46Z White_Flame: all the basic posix support is there (depending on implementation), and yes, libraries for doing all sorts of higher-order stuff with it like message passing etc 2015-07-31T05:18:58Z akkad: jibanes: on Corman/lispworks/allegro/ccl, just not sbcl 2015-07-31T05:19:00Z jibanes: and locking? 2015-07-31T05:19:11Z acewonder6743: Is AI a mostly low- or high-level field of study in CS? 2015-07-31T05:19:21Z Zhivago: The question is meaningless. 2015-07-31T05:19:28Z White_Flame: acewonder6743: AI is whatever people who are researching it define it to be 2015-07-31T05:19:33Z acewonder6743: And what makes Lisp better suited for AI programming than other languages? 2015-07-31T05:19:42Z White_Flame: there's no concensus on any terms in AI, and no hard technical definitions of the goals 2015-07-31T05:19:46Z beach: acewonder6743: AI is off-topic for this channel which is about Common Lisp. 2015-07-31T05:19:48Z Zhivago: ace: The question is meaningless; AI is too broad. 2015-07-31T05:19:50Z acewonder6743: I ask that because I'm interested in AI and just read that Lisp is the best language for it. 2015-07-31T05:19:59Z Zhivago: What you read is nonsense. 2015-07-31T05:20:04Z Zhivago: There is no AI, per se. 2015-07-31T05:20:10Z beach: acewonder6743: Lisp is the best language for many things. 2015-07-31T05:20:15Z akkad: metarogramming 2015-07-31T05:20:21Z Zhivago: There are a large number of different fields involving radically different approaches. 2015-07-31T05:20:22Z White_Flame: acewonder6743: Lisp was often used for classical logical-inference style AI research, due to its ease of linked data structures 2015-07-31T05:20:43Z White_Flame: (and "is" in addition to "was") 2015-07-31T05:20:54Z Zhivago: Consider computer vision, text comprehension, route finding, group coordination, etc. 2015-07-31T05:21:20Z Zhivago: These all fall into AI, but do not have much overlap in terms of how they are computed. 2015-07-31T05:21:46Z Zhivago: However, if I were trying to pick a 'language for AI' these days, I would pick one with good statistical and large data support. 2015-07-31T05:21:52Z jibanes: does CL implementations usually have solid odbc drivers? 2015-07-31T05:22:09Z White_Flame: jibanes: that's in the realm of libraries, not the implementations themselves 2015-07-31T05:22:13Z jibanes: of course 2015-07-31T05:22:21Z jibanes: sorry for the shortcut 2015-07-31T05:22:22Z White_Flame: I've only used postgres-specific stuff, not ODBC, but it's worked very well 2015-07-31T05:22:27Z jibanes: great 2015-07-31T05:22:49Z White_Flame: Lisp is ancient in terms of langauges. The stuff is out there 2015-07-31T05:23:00Z beach: jibanes: What is it that you are up to? Are you trying to get answers to all of your questions about requirements before you start learning Common Lisp? 2015-07-31T05:23:14Z White_Flame: and because it's such a plastic language, libraries allow very interesting syntax and execution semantics that you can't get out of other languages 2015-07-31T05:23:55Z acewonder6743: Well, first and foremost, I would like to focus on algorithm design/problem solving skills in programming (I'm a newb). As of now, my algorith skills are shoddy; I can't come up to solutions to stuff a lot of the times. 2015-07-31T05:24:05Z jibanes: beach: yes mostl 2015-07-31T05:24:07Z jibanes: y 2015-07-31T05:24:19Z White_Flame: acewonder6743: Lisp is a great language for expressing algorithms & meta-algorithmic transformations 2015-07-31T05:24:22Z beach: jibanes: Then you are doing it wrong. 2015-07-31T05:24:27Z acewonder6743: Is CL a good language for getting good at algorithm design/problem solving? Or is that just something you either do or don't have? 2015-07-31T05:24:37Z beach: jibanes: Common Lisp is worth learning even if it should lack one or two things. 2015-07-31T05:24:54Z beach: acewonder6743: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/quoted.html 2015-07-31T05:24:58Z acewonder6743: White_Flame: Where should I start? Btw, I'm 17, so is it too late for me? 2015-07-31T05:25:00Z beach: acewonder6743: second quote. 2015-07-31T05:25:03Z White_Flame: acewonder6743: algorithm design is a skill that is irrelevant to language 2015-07-31T05:25:16Z White_Flame: acewonder6743: just start 2015-07-31T05:25:34Z jibanes: beach: I need to port some code, I want to know if it's even feasible 2015-07-31T05:25:37Z White_Flame: Land of Lisp, Practical Common Lisp, get familiar with the CLHS (langauge specification) 2015-07-31T05:25:56Z beach: jibanes: It is as feasible in Common Lisp as in other languages. 2015-07-31T05:26:08Z beach: jibanes: Perhaps you need to write some code to do it. 2015-07-31T05:26:28Z jibanes: it will come to that. 2015-07-31T05:26:38Z beach: jibanes: That effort should be compared to the potential additional expressiveness you obtain. 2015-07-31T05:26:57Z jibanes: rightfully 2015-07-31T05:27:08Z acewonder6743: I've been messing around with gcc and C, since I'm on Linux and they're installed by default. Is Lisp better for someone hoping to improve their algorithm design skills than C? 2015-07-31T05:27:24Z White_Flame: again, algorithm design has nothing to do with language 2015-07-31T05:27:35Z acewonder6743: And will skills I pick up in Lisp be transferable to other languages like C? 2015-07-31T05:27:56Z theos: acewonder6743 yes! Common Lisp is better for algorithm design. its best for everything! 2015-07-31T05:28:02Z White_Flame: all general programming skills are langauge-agnostic and more exposure gives you better tools to use in all languages 2015-07-31T05:28:19Z acewonder6743: White_Flame: Yes, I know that. I'm asking which language is best for practicising algorithm design. 2015-07-31T05:28:19Z White_Flame: there is no silver bullet to help you learn 2015-07-31T05:28:24Z White_Flame: there are only great tools to use, like Lisp 2015-07-31T05:28:38Z White_Flame: algorithm design happens in pseudo-code, not in programming languages 2015-07-31T05:28:47Z acewonder6743: I know algorithm design is a concept seperate from an individual langauge by itself 2015-07-31T05:28:58Z theos: acewonder6743 use lisp for everything! you need brain too 2015-07-31T05:29:29Z acewonder6743: Sorry for the many questions 2015-07-31T05:29:43Z jibanes: not sure I agree with White_Flame, some languages are just shit. 2015-07-31T05:29:44Z theos wonders if acewonder6743 is gaveno 2015-07-31T05:30:09Z Zhivago: ace: Generally CL should have fewer irrelevant details to care about with respect to algorithm implementation than in C. 2015-07-31T05:30:20Z White_Flame: jibanes: yes, I guess I should say "useful languages", not just "languages" :) 2015-07-31T05:30:25Z acewonder6743: I'm just interested in Lisp, because it seems analagous to the one kid in school who nobody talks to who happens to be the coolest and smartest there 2015-07-31T05:30:26Z jibanes: yeah 2015-07-31T05:30:37Z drmeister: beach: Hello - I put this together today: https://drmeister.wordpress.com/2015/07/30/timing-data-comparing-cclasp-to-c-sbcl-and-python/ 2015-07-31T05:30:46Z jibanes: or languages not spaghetti dialects 2015-07-31T05:31:01Z beach: drmeister: Yes, great! 2015-07-31T05:31:07Z jibanes: but I digress 2015-07-31T05:31:32Z acewonder6743: Will Lisp allow me to touch on low-level stuff like memory management, pointers, binary and hex? 2015-07-31T05:31:40Z beach: acewonder6743: NO. 2015-07-31T05:31:50Z White_Flame: binary and hex, yes 2015-07-31T05:31:53Z White_Flame: if you care to 2015-07-31T05:32:20Z White_Flame: 16 vs #x10 2015-07-31T05:32:28Z beach: acewonder6743: Instead of asking all these questions, why don't you spend a week on learning the basics, and then see whether you like it. 2015-07-31T05:32:56Z Zhivago: ace: It depends on what you understand a pointer to be. 2015-07-31T05:33:03Z White_Flame: minion: tell acewonder6743 about PCL 2015-07-31T05:33:03Z minion: acewonder6743: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-07-31T05:33:06Z Zhivago: ace: In C, a pointer is essentially an index into an array. 2015-07-31T05:33:08Z beach: drmeister: Aren't you afraid that you will attract people who will then do some other benchmark and be very disappointed? 2015-07-31T05:33:14Z acewonder6743: beach: Ok. I'll go check out land of Lisp 2015-07-31T05:33:16Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T05:33:33Z White_Flame: acewonder6743: if you're looking for more of an overview of the language, hit PCL 2015-07-31T05:33:45Z acewonder6743: White_Flame and that book too 2015-07-31T05:33:50Z beach: acewonder6743: If you are somewhat smart, I can guarantee that you will like it. 2015-07-31T05:34:06Z beach: acewonder6743: So the time will be well spent. 2015-07-31T05:34:08Z jibanes: 14472334024676221? 2015-07-31T05:34:14Z jibanes: drmeister: 14472334024676221? 2015-07-31T05:34:50Z jibanes: or this is 77th 2015-07-31T05:34:51Z jibanes: not sure 2015-07-31T05:34:55Z drmeister: beach: Good point - I better put in a caveat 2015-07-31T05:35:29Z White_Flame: yeah, this is mostly numeric optimization, there's a lot of other structural optimization issues people could hit 2015-07-31T05:35:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-07-31T05:37:26Z beach: drmeister: Would it be OK if I do an internship with you in Philadelphia? I need to learn your communication and presentations skills! :) 2015-07-31T05:37:42Z jibanes: 10,000,000 the 78th fibbonacci takes me 165 seconds in apl :) 2015-07-31T05:38:11Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T05:38:18Z kp666 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-07-31T05:38:29Z jibanes: but yeah apl is faster for other stuff... 2015-07-31T05:39:27Z beach: drmeister: Did you read what I wrote about integrating SICL generic dispatch into Clasp? 2015-07-31T05:39:41Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-07-31T05:40:11Z yakcc quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2015-07-31T05:40:53Z drmeister: beach: I had a lot of trouble with irccloud in the last 24 hours and I haven't read through all of the logs. I caught mention of it but I'm not sure I caught all of it. 2015-07-31T05:41:23Z beach: drmeister: No rush. But I think I did a fairly complete analysis of the situations. 2015-07-31T05:41:50Z drmeister: So there is more. I'll dig into Shinmera's logs 2015-07-31T05:42:15Z beach: Yeah. 2015-07-31T05:42:24Z drmeister: Found it. 2015-07-31T05:42:44Z beach: http://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp?from=2015-07-30T12%3A35%3A55&to=2015-07-30T18%3A35%3A55 2015-07-31T05:42:58Z beach: Oh, no, wrong one. 2015-07-31T05:43:00Z beach: Sorry. 2015-07-31T05:43:55Z drmeister: This? http://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp?from=2015-07-29T17%3A41%3A55&to=2015-07-31T05%3A42%3A55&type%5B%5D=m&type%5B%5D=a&type%5B%5D=n&type%5B%5D=o&type%5B%5D=t 2015-07-31T05:44:06Z beach: Exactly! 2015-07-31T05:44:43Z drmeister: For MPS I have this for every exposed C++ class and I can continue the series for CL classes: "each class must have a unique non-negative integer number" 2015-07-31T05:44:49Z drmeister: They are easily accessible. 2015-07-31T05:45:08Z beach: That part is fairly doable. 2015-07-31T05:46:07Z Zhivago: How do you enforce that with separate compilation? Or is that determined at link-time? 2015-07-31T05:46:09Z drmeister: Every object has this number in its header. 2015-07-31T05:46:16Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-07-31T05:46:38Z beach: drmeister: In the header? I don't think that will work for the SICL method. 2015-07-31T05:47:00Z beach: Zhivago: Me? Yes, at link time. 2015-07-31T05:47:51Z beach: drmeister: Maybe it will. I need to think about it. 2015-07-31T05:48:24Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-07-31T05:48:35Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-31T05:50:11Z White_Flame: drmeister: on the Commodore 64's BASIC, your benchmark would take about 1543 hours :) 2015-07-31T05:50:31Z White_Flame: 64 days 2015-07-31T05:50:48Z White_Flame: a coincidentally nice number :) 2015-07-31T05:50:54Z loke: drmeister: To be fair, C64 basic was not a speed daemon :-) 2015-07-31T05:50:59Z jibanes: is this accurate? 2015-07-31T05:51:02Z jibanes: or just a guess 2015-07-31T05:51:16Z White_Flame: accurate, from sampling runs of 1000, instead of 10,000,000 2015-07-31T05:51:23Z White_Flame: to a 1/60th second resolution 2015-07-31T05:51:44Z jibanes: wow 2015-07-31T05:52:05Z jibanes: do you include the time to print the result on an epson fx-80? 2015-07-31T05:52:21Z White_Flame: no 2015-07-31T05:53:14Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T05:53:25Z White_Flame: actually, that was from 100 runs, not 1000: https://i.imgur.com/AKHtn1E.png 2015-07-31T05:53:58Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T05:54:09Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-31T05:54:38Z jibanes: Z probably overflowed half a million times 2015-07-31T05:54:48Z White_Flame: all math is done via software floating point 2015-07-31T05:55:07Z White_Flame: so it should generally be relatively okay sorta kinda not really 2015-07-31T05:55:38Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T05:56:34Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-31T05:57:33Z loke: White_Flame: That's so beautiful 2015-07-31T05:59:11Z beach: drmeister: Do your built-in instances have the unique number in the same place? 2015-07-31T05:59:20Z drmeister: Yes 2015-07-31T05:59:21Z beach: drmeister: Like packages, symbols, streams, etc? 2015-07-31T05:59:25Z beach: Excellent! 2015-07-31T05:59:29Z beach: That's a very good start. 2015-07-31T05:59:46Z beach: If in addition they are in the header, the access will be very fast. 2015-07-31T05:59:51Z beach: I think it will work. 2015-07-31T06:00:03Z drmeister: Do they need to be contiguous values? 2015-07-31T06:00:07Z beach: No. 2015-07-31T06:00:19Z beach: Performance is better if they are. 2015-07-31T06:00:28Z beach: But it is not essential. 2015-07-31T06:00:40Z beach: Not that much difference, is what I am trying to say. 2015-07-31T06:01:05Z SlashLife quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-31T06:02:42Z drmeister: I call the integer index for each object type a "Kind". 2015-07-31T06:03:05Z beach: Sure, why not. 2015-07-31T06:03:07Z drmeister: The Kind value is stored at the very start of the header with a two bit tag. 2015-07-31T06:03:20Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T06:03:25Z drmeister: So >>2 to get the Kind value. 2015-07-31T06:03:46Z beach: Why the tag? 2015-07-31T06:04:18Z drmeister: For CL objects I use the Instance_O Kind and then there is an additional pointer to a class. 2015-07-31T06:04:53Z drmeister: I could make the Instance_O kind the highest C++ kind value and use values higher than that for CL objects. 2015-07-31T06:05:15Z beach: That won't be necessary. 2015-07-31T06:05:19Z drmeister: The tag is for the garbage collector. 2015-07-31T06:06:42Z beach: What is the meaning of the different tag values? 2015-07-31T06:07:08Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/bVTiiLFm/ 2015-07-31T06:07:28Z drmeister: It's Memory Pool System specific info. 2015-07-31T06:08:01Z drmeister: It differentiates Kind values from forwarding pointers from padding objects. 2015-07-31T06:08:47Z beach: OK. Not important. And shifting is practically free. 2015-07-31T06:09:04Z beach: It might not even be necessary to shift. 2015-07-31T06:09:31Z beach: The discriminating function can work with any values. 2015-07-31T06:09:48Z acewonder6743: (defun (square x) (* x x)) (defun (sum-of-squares x y) (+ (square x) (square y))) 2015-07-31T06:09:52Z acewonder6743: Lisp is so cool. 2015-07-31T06:10:09Z Quadrescence: but that is so vanilla, and not even correct 2015-07-31T06:10:17Z H4ns: acewonder6743: only that what you've just written is not lisp 2015-07-31T06:10:44Z beach: Heh! 2015-07-31T06:11:59Z beach: drmeister: The discriminating function in the SICL technique can even be told that two Kinds are consecutive even though their values as native numbers are not. 2015-07-31T06:12:04Z acewonder6743: The defuns were thrown in for fun, btw. 2015-07-31T06:12:35Z beach: acewonder6743: You are looking more and more like a troll. You haven't even tried out those forms in a Common Lisp system. Please shape up. 2015-07-31T06:13:00Z beach: drmeister: So you get the benefit of a contiguous domain despite the tags. 2015-07-31T06:13:05Z jeaye: Given immutability and the functional nature of many lisps, what are some ways that implicit scope-based resource management (a la RAII) can be achieved while still maintaining deterministic lifetimes and avoiding excessive copying? 2015-07-31T06:13:08Z acewonder6743: beach: You need to relax. 2015-07-31T06:13:40Z White_Flame: jeaye: generally macros which define a scope 2015-07-31T06:13:52Z H4ns: jeaye: like with-open-file, for example 2015-07-31T06:13:59Z jeaye: Right, both of those are explicit. 2015-07-31T06:14:02Z White_Flame: jeaye: it doesn't use object lifetime hacks, it uses lexical boundaries 2015-07-31T06:14:12Z dickle quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-31T06:16:04Z White_Flame: jeaye: dynamic bindings are really nice here as well, where whatever the scoped resource is can be accessed in nested functions without having to manually pass it through as a parameter 2015-07-31T06:16:06Z jeaye: I'm trying to find the balance between allowing ctors/dtors for custom types and having them called deterministically, without the need for wrapper macros. Given the strive for immutability, it becomes harder and hard to avoid excessive copying. 2015-07-31T06:16:25Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-31T06:16:30Z jeaye: White_Flame: Right. 2015-07-31T06:16:39Z jeaye: That's certainly handy. 2015-07-31T06:16:52Z theos joined #lisp 2015-07-31T06:17:19Z White_Flame: If you want things called on scope entry/exit, you need to call them there. I don't quite see the problem with a macro 2015-07-31T06:17:43Z White_Flame: and "things called" includes destructors/cleanup code 2015-07-31T06:18:28Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-07-31T06:18:31Z White_Flame: you could consider a macro's &body as a 1-parameter monad ;) 2015-07-31T06:18:32Z acewonder6743 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-31T06:19:32Z beach left #lisp 2015-07-31T06:23:43Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T06:25:01Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-07-31T06:25:58Z White_Flame: jeaye: in most cases, like with-open-file, the macro scope declaration includes object creation. It's not like you have to create an object, and use scope macros together 2015-07-31T06:26:12Z White_Flame: in terms of what the user needs to type 2015-07-31T06:26:21Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-31T06:26:39Z drmeister: I'm digging into decades old memory here. 2015-07-31T06:27:05Z jeaye: White_Flame: That's not generic enough approach for me. 2015-07-31T06:27:07Z drmeister: What's it called when you have a collection of point masses in 3D and you want to calculate the principle axes? 2015-07-31T06:27:26Z jeaye: I do consider C++-like RAII > explicit macros, so I'm looking for something more suitable. 2015-07-31T06:27:27Z White_Flame: jeaye: (with-object 'type (:initargs...) ...&body...) ? 2015-07-31T06:27:57Z drmeister: I have irregular molecules and I'd like to orient them so that their longest length goes up and down on the screen. 2015-07-31T06:28:12Z White_Flame: as opposed to C++ { type varname; ...body... } ? 2015-07-31T06:28:25Z White_Flame: {type varname(..params...); ...body... } 2015-07-31T06:28:43Z drmeister: I can't remember what the calculation was called that let me calculate the vectors that corresponded to the length, width and depth of the molecule. 2015-07-31T06:28:47Z jeaye: White_Flame: What are the lifetime implications of putting that in a list which is returned from a function? 2015-07-31T06:28:54Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T06:29:35Z White_Flame: jeaye: either you want your startup/shutdown determined by object lifetime or by lexical scope 2015-07-31T06:29:38Z White_Flame: pick one 2015-07-31T06:29:55Z White_Flame: if it should be by scope, then you can pass around a closed object, since it left the scope 2015-07-31T06:30:05Z White_Flame: ...since execution left the scope 2015-07-31T06:30:15Z White_Flame: if it shoudl be by object lifetime, then it is not by scope, and it would stay alive 2015-07-31T06:30:23Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T06:30:24Z White_Flame: C++ conflates the two, and it's a hack 2015-07-31T06:32:43Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T06:32:55Z White_Flame: however, you could consider the braces scope in C++ to be a (with-objects ...) macro 2015-07-31T06:33:03Z White_Flame: as that's pretty literally what the compiler does 2015-07-31T06:33:47Z White_Flame: with stack-allocated C++ objects 2015-07-31T06:33:57Z scymtym: drmeister: principal component analysis? 2015-07-31T06:34:11Z drmeister: scymtym: I think that's it! 2015-07-31T06:34:17Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-31T06:34:43Z drmeister: Checking... 2015-07-31T06:35:15Z White_Flame: jeaye: what is your ideal? (let ((obj (create-object type ..params..))) ...) ? 2015-07-31T06:35:25Z White_Flame: and have it cleaned up at he end of the scope? 2015-07-31T06:35:39Z White_Flame: because that's kind of what macros are for 2015-07-31T06:35:57Z White_Flame: to extend that model 2015-07-31T06:35:59Z drmeister: Or it was the moments of inertia - argh - I'm digging around 2015-07-31T06:36:28Z jeaye: White_Flame: Right. Still working out exactly what I want but, most of all, I have no gc and I want to make it near impossible to fuck up. 2015-07-31T06:36:46Z White_Flame: if you have no GC, then I'd say never have (create-object ..) exposed at all 2015-07-31T06:36:59Z White_Flame: every object creation should have a very explicit scope 2015-07-31T06:37:07Z jeaye: Enforcing that dtors are called on custom objects is required, in one way or another 2015-07-31T06:37:11Z White_Flame: meaning a scope auto-constructs/destructs for you 2015-07-31T06:37:20Z drmeister: Argh, I used to do this all the time when I needed to render a molecule in a rectangle I'd calculate these vectors, and then rotate the molecule to fit in the rectangle. 2015-07-31T06:37:40Z jeaye: White_Flame: Right. Now I'm stuck on the performance implications this has with immutable data structures. 2015-07-31T06:37:56Z White_Flame: jeaye: force static allocation 2015-07-31T06:38:02Z jeaye: Assuming I want to keep lifetimes deterministic. 2015-07-31T06:38:03Z White_Flame: force _stack_ allocation, I meant 2015-07-31T06:38:23Z jeaye: White_Flame: Yes, by default, everything is stack allocated. 2015-07-31T06:38:45Z White_Flame: hmm 2015-07-31T06:38:59Z White_Flame: if everything is scoped, you always just have feed-forward of data into called functions, never returned data? 2015-07-31T06:39:01Z jeaye: So, closing over a binding and returning the closure means that it needs to be copied/moved. 2015-07-31T06:39:28Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T06:39:34Z White_Flame: yeah, that's not stack allocation 2015-07-31T06:39:57Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T06:40:23Z White_Flame: what environment is this running in, that you don't have a GC? 2015-07-31T06:40:50Z eazar_debugged quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-31T06:40:52Z jeaye: White_Flame: It's my own statically typed lisp. 2015-07-31T06:42:03Z huserl joined #lisp 2015-07-31T06:42:04Z jeaye: Since I'm interested in doing systems-level work with it, I want the deterministic lifetime guarantees of C++, or something compatible. 2015-07-31T06:42:29Z White_Flame: I don't see the cost of closure creation as being crippling 2015-07-31T06:42:36Z jeaye: The rust approach of moving does work with immutability, where it allows you to move any allowing object, but statically verifies you don't touch it afterward. 2015-07-31T06:42:41Z White_Flame: you just have to optimize for it 2015-07-31T06:42:51Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T06:42:57Z jeaye: White_Flame: I'm mainly concerned about the "copying" of immutable data structures. 2015-07-31T06:43:16Z jeaye: And the implications that has on lifetimes and/or copies. 2015-07-31T06:43:23Z White_Flame: why? 2015-07-31T06:44:10Z White_Flame: in all, I don't think you should be assuming stack allocation then 2015-07-31T06:44:25Z jeaye: White_Flame: If I have a list of 100 my-buffers and I map it through some function into a new list, do I copy all of the buffers? Or is the previous list considered "moved from," thus not making it persistent? 2015-07-31T06:44:37Z White_Flame: if what yo'ure doing in your call nesting is building up large immutable data structures that will need to be closed over a non-stack-nesting environment 2015-07-31T06:44:51Z White_Flame: these are problems that GC solve explicitly 2015-07-31T06:44:58Z jeaye: White_Flame: Sure, if I don't assume stack allocation then reference counting (a la shared_ptr) can get me where I want. 2015-07-31T06:45:15Z jeaye: I'm aiming for stack-by-default. 2015-07-31T06:46:07Z White_Flame: I think these are pretty non-Lisp language design issues in any case 2015-07-31T06:46:21Z White_Flame: escape analysis in particular 2015-07-31T06:46:55Z Zhivago: white: Perhaps you mean 'implicitly'. 2015-07-31T06:47:24Z White_Flame: Zhivago: more like GC was designed to tackle those exact problems 2015-07-31T06:47:26Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T06:47:39Z White_Flame: so explicit intent, implicit benefit :) 2015-07-31T06:47:50Z Zhivago: I suspect it was designed more to tackle graph structures, but ymmv. 2015-07-31T06:54:14Z Guest35311 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-31T06:54:39Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-31T06:56:17Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-31T06:58:09Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T06:59:59Z Guest35311 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T07:01:58Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T07:05:07Z jsgrant_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T07:07:04Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-07-31T07:07:13Z guicho quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-31T07:08:44Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-31T07:09:24Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T07:10:46Z jsgrant- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T07:11:55Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-31T07:14:54Z kolko joined #lisp 2015-07-31T07:15:47Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T07:16:31Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-31T07:18:48Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-07-31T07:27:43Z jcmdln quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-31T07:29:31Z salva joined #lisp 2015-07-31T07:35:15Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T07:49:02Z Vityok: PuercoPop: hi! Michael agreed to make a blog post dedicated to the code navigation from the SLIME debug/stack trace window 2015-07-31T07:50:05Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-07-31T07:50:48Z Guest35311 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-31T07:54:15Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-07-31T07:56:28Z Firedancer: ooo nice Vityok 2015-07-31T07:56:55Z Cymew: That's a nice series of blog posts, btw. 2015-07-31T07:57:58Z Guest35311 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T07:59:58Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:00:19Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:02:16Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-07-31T08:02:57Z Kenjin: Hey guys, just noticed that latest sbcl 1.2.14 is not actually in sourceforge? The download link takes you to files folder where latest is not available. 2015-07-31T08:04:16Z martinhath joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:04:18Z jackdaniel: its sf fault, go to github, there near "tags" is "releases" tab 2015-07-31T08:04:24Z jackdaniel: and you can download release 2015-07-31T08:06:31Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T08:12:39Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:14:58Z superancetre joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:17:22Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:20:30Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T08:21:10Z Cymew: You can always work from a git checkout. I've done that for a long time now, and compared to some other projects, I have never found it in a state where it did not compile and build just fine. 2015-07-31T08:27:27Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:27:49Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:31:44Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T08:32:18Z akkad: is everyone here on sbcl? 2015-07-31T08:32:25Z akkad: asking because at the local bay area lisp meetup it was mostly ccl 2015-07-31T08:32:56Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:33:14Z antoszka: bay area → macs → ccl 2015-07-31T08:33:15Z antoszka: :) 2015-07-31T08:33:58Z antoszka: but yeah, the remainder of the world seems to mostly be riding sbcl. 2015-07-31T08:34:42Z Firedancer: Wasn't ccl better on Windows also? 2015-07-31T08:35:01Z Firedancer: At least I understood it was based on what I have read 2015-07-31T08:35:28Z antoszka: Yeah, I kind of remember hearing that in the old days. Not sure if that's still an issue. 2015-07-31T08:38:40Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-31T08:40:45Z przl joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:40:51Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T08:42:11Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:44:22Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:46:02Z White_Flame: Firedancer: performance-wise, some years back sbcl 32-bit was still 2x faster than ccl 64-bit on windows for our workload 2015-07-31T08:46:32Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T08:47:10Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T08:49:07Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T08:49:59Z martinhath: how is clisp compared to ccl and sbcl? 2015-07-31T08:50:04Z akkad: ol 2015-07-31T08:50:20Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T08:50:40Z akkad: it's good for bootstapping :P 2015-07-31T08:50:53Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:51:31Z H4ns: martinhath: https://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html 2015-07-31T08:51:47Z clop joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:51:51Z H4ns: martinhath: it is a few years old, but most of the basic points are still correct. 2015-07-31T08:51:56Z martinhath: i found its repl was better than (i think) sbcl, mostly due to readline. Though i am a complete lisp noob 2015-07-31T08:52:01Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-07-31T08:52:16Z akkad: martinhath: slime is your friend 2015-07-31T08:52:37Z Cymew: SBCL is quite dominant on Linux, that much I know. Fruitspace and Windows? No idea. 2015-07-31T08:52:47Z H4ns: martinhath: clisp is only popular because it has a repl with readline, and readline is also the reason why it is GPL 2015-07-31T08:53:11Z akkad: there are bsd/mit licensed rl alternatives 2015-07-31T08:53:30Z H4ns: akkad: ... and the point of that remark is....? 2015-07-31T08:54:01Z Cymew: If you run slime it you does not need readline? 2015-07-31T08:54:13Z H4ns: Cymew: nope 2015-07-31T08:54:40Z Cymew: That was a question to akkad, regarding the point of his remark. 2015-07-31T08:54:49Z Cymew: Maybe to too clear. Sorry about that. 2015-07-31T08:55:12Z Cymew sighs 2015-07-31T08:55:13Z martinhath: hmm. gotta check out slime 2015-07-31T08:55:28Z Cymew: No it's one of those days when I randomly drops negations... 2015-07-31T08:55:43Z bch joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:56:08Z bch: hi. is there a simple explanation for the funny dot-notation like (a . b) ? 2015-07-31T08:56:24Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:56:41Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:56:49Z Cymew: bch: You know what a cons box is? If not, read up on that it will become clear. 2015-07-31T08:57:24Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T08:58:10Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-07-31T08:58:41Z bch: i know what a cons box is, but i don't know why you write .. say (a . b) instead of simply writing (a b). I know, the latter one is a list, too, but do you really need cons box and why not do everything with a list ? 2015-07-31T08:58:56Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-07-31T08:59:02Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T08:59:03Z akkad: h4ns that lack of readline is not due to lack of choices in licenses. 2015-07-31T08:59:03Z bch: i am writing a tiny lisp interpreter and i am not sure whether i should support cons box. 2015-07-31T08:59:56Z H4ns: bch: a lisp list consists of conses. that is how they work. (a . b) is not equivalent to (a b), rather (a b) is (a . (b . nil)) 2015-07-31T09:00:11Z Cymew: What H4ns said. 2015-07-31T09:00:50Z H4ns: akkad: i have not explained the lack of a line editor in other lisp implementations, i have explained why many people choose clisp and why clisp is GPL 2015-07-31T09:01:27Z H4ns: akkad: the reason why other lisp implementations don't have a line editor built in is that the benefits of a line editor are small for non-beginners 2015-07-31T09:01:46Z White_Flame: bch: you can certainly get around it as an input syntax, just by using (cons a b) instead of (a . b), but what would you output if you were to print a non-list cons cell? 2015-07-31T09:02:42Z bch: mhm my idea is that i do everything as a list, but i guess, the cons model is more 'general' than just lists. a list is .. sort of a specialiced cons-construct? 2015-07-31T09:02:58Z H4ns: bch: correct. 2015-07-31T09:03:05Z White_Flame: a list is when you use cons cells as (data . next-cons-cell) 2015-07-31T09:03:10Z Cymew: BTW I sometimes re-read the first few chapters of Touretzsky where he talks about cons boxes, and it almost always reminds me of key points that has faded in my memory. 2015-07-31T09:03:15Z H4ns: bch: conses can also be used to represent trees 2015-07-31T09:03:41Z Cymew: I hope I spelled that correctly 2015-07-31T09:03:56Z Cymew: minion probably can remind us 2015-07-31T09:03:58Z White_Flame: (btw, when did it become "cons box" instead of "cons cell"? new to me) 2015-07-31T09:04:02Z knobo: Looks like do is faster then dotimes 2015-07-31T09:04:03Z H4ns: minion: gentle 2015-07-31T09:04:03Z minion: gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-07-31T09:04:12Z Cymew: Thanks H4ns 2015-07-31T09:04:31Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:04:31Z H4ns: White_Flame: it is "cons cell". boxes are often used to illustrate them. 2015-07-31T09:04:37Z bitwiggler: H4ns: his point I think is that some have stated license issues with readline being the reason sbcl does not use it, but that there are alternatives that would invalidate that statement. 2015-07-31T09:04:57Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:05:10Z knobo: I created my own version of drmeister's fibn with. And it is a slightly faster: http://pastebin.com/zXA08Ex2 2015-07-31T09:05:26Z bch: thank you guys, wish you a nice day. 2015-07-31T09:05:28Z bch left #lisp 2015-07-31T09:05:46Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T09:06:15Z knobo: on sbcl 2015-07-31T09:06:32Z Ober: slime is the way to go 2015-07-31T09:06:50Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:06:51Z jsgrant- joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:07:14Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:08:30Z knobo: Why is it faster 2015-07-31T09:08:32Z knobo: ? 2015-07-31T09:08:54Z knobo: is it just because i declared i as unsigned-byt? 2015-07-31T09:08:58Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-31T09:09:03Z knobo: unsigned-byte 2015-07-31T09:10:56Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-07-31T09:11:50Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:13:44Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T09:14:09Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:14:46Z francogrex: hi, can someone please have a look and maybe guess what's wrong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152682 2015-07-31T09:15:16Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:15:19Z easye` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-31T09:15:44Z easye joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:18:34Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T09:19:06Z superancetre: i got that error when i didnt saved my file before loading it i think one time 2015-07-31T09:19:51Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T09:19:52Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:20:04Z francogrex: ok, but it's not the situation here, file is saved and otherwise compiles fine 2015-07-31T09:21:00Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-31T09:21:31Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T09:22:20Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T09:23:23Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:24:23Z jackdaniel: have you tried to load it again after clearing whole cache? 2015-07-31T09:24:46Z francogrex: jackdaniel: yes indeed any option selected 0 to 4 puts me back into the same debugger 2015-07-31T09:25:26Z francogrex: deleting the cache does not help either 2015-07-31T09:25:43Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:26:24Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:28:14Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T09:29:17Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T09:29:48Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T09:30:11Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:30:20Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:31:19Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2015-07-31T09:31:19Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:32:08Z francogrex: anyone? 2015-07-31T09:32:12Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:33:46Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:33:48Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-31T09:34:22Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:38:44Z H4ns: maybe a windows incompatibility in the asdf file of that project 2015-07-31T09:40:25Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:40:42Z jackdaniel: how do you load montezuma? 2015-07-31T09:41:31Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:41:56Z kilon joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:42:20Z francogrex: H4ns: jackdaniel stassats informed that that I was using an "old" version of montezuma. I was loading 2015-07-31T09:44:09Z francogrex: the good one was from quicklisp repo 2015-07-31T09:45:50Z yenda quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-31T09:45:52Z yenda- joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:46:04Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:56:48Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T09:59:03Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:59:10Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T09:59:43Z fikusz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T10:00:16Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-31T10:01:02Z francogrex: still though I'd like to understand what was the issue with the first repo and be able to fix it myself 2015-07-31T10:01:33Z francogrex: maybe a comparison of the two versions of the libs? if that is easily doable 2015-07-31T10:02:14Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:03:02Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:03:08Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:03:39Z jackdaniel: I guess there was something wrong with loading order in asd - but thats a guess 2015-07-31T10:03:43Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:04:26Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T10:08:08Z async_eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:08:21Z knobo: my (time (FIBN 100000000 10)) ran on 0.790000 sec. vs drmeister 1.163333 sec. that is probably not any significant boost? 2015-07-31T10:09:03Z dickle joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:09:33Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:09:40Z knobo: the difference is less for highter num 2015-07-31T10:10:06Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-31T10:10:53Z knobo: at (time (FIBN 100000 10000)) there is no difference. 2015-07-31T10:12:05Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:12:31Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T10:13:15Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T10:13:24Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-07-31T10:14:50Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-31T10:15:23Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:15:39Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T10:16:15Z norfumpit quit (Quit: See You, Space Cowboy ...) 2015-07-31T10:16:30Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:17:20Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:17:30Z nowhereman_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T10:18:55Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T10:21:21Z knobo: Looks like it it's just do vs dotimes 2015-07-31T10:21:29Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T10:22:35Z async_eazar001 is now known as eazar_javarulezz 2015-07-31T10:23:45Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2015-07-31T13:31:04Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:31:05Z Firedancer: I am showing my stupidy but isn't Rapsberry Pi using ARM? 2015-07-31T13:31:19Z kushal quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-31T13:31:43Z kdas__ is now known as kushal 2015-07-31T13:31:45Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2015-07-31T13:31:45Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:31:46Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-31T13:33:02Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-07-31T13:33:09Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:35:23Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:35:38Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-31T13:37:10Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:37:10Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-07-31T13:37:10Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:38:18Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:38:28Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:39:13Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-07-31T13:39:40Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T13:40:31Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T13:40:36Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-31T13:41:38Z jackdaniel: Firedancer: yes 2015-07-31T13:42:05Z jackdaniel: (not "yes" that you show any stupidity, "yes" that it runs arm :D) 2015-07-31T13:42:44Z Firedancer: Hmm but I thought there were some working solutions for running cl in Raspberry Pi? 2015-07-31T13:43:09Z Zhivago: ECL and CLISP should have no problems. 2015-07-31T13:43:14Z jackdaniel: yes - I mean ECL loads fine cl+ssl on arm now 2015-07-31T13:43:31Z jackdaniel: Firedancer: I'm ECL maintainer, hence my joy, when stuff starts working :D 2015-07-31T13:43:45Z Firedancer: aaaa okay then ^^' 2015-07-31T13:44:24Z jackdaniel: lisp->C translator weren't casting functions to void pointer properly, and arm apparently really dislikes treating functions that way 2015-07-31T13:44:30Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T13:44:37Z jackdaniel: so had to *(void**) them :D 2015-07-31T13:44:39Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T13:44:52Z Firedancer: nice as I am thinking of doing some project with cl on raspberry pi 2015-07-31T13:45:01Z Zhivago: Well, casting functions to void * is not legal in C. 2015-07-31T13:45:20Z Zhivago: Although posix does require it, so ymmv. 2015-07-31T13:45:26Z jackdaniel: ymmv = ? 2015-07-31T13:45:36Z Zhivago: your mileage may vary. 2015-07-31T13:45:43Z jackdaniel: Zhivago: I'm aware of that, but as you said, some stuff requires such trickery 2015-07-31T13:46:59Z jackdaniel: Firedancer: if you decide to use ECL - grab version from repository, and if you hit any bugs, please report :) and ask on problems obv 2015-07-31T13:47:03Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:47:50Z jackdaniel: afk :) 2015-07-31T13:48:49Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:53:09Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:55:32Z cyphase quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T13:56:30Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T13:59:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:00:05Z Dasyatid1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:00:07Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-31T14:16:01Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-07-31T14:24:16Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:25:12Z knobo: when doing (string= str "KNOWN" :end1 5), it might fail because str might be shorter. So the solution is (ignore-errors (string= str "known" :end1 5). Any better? 2015-07-31T14:26:35Z benbru joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:26:45Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T14:26:51Z H4ns: (min 5 (length str)) 2015-07-31T14:27:01Z H4ns: oh, no. 2015-07-31T14:27:12Z H4ns: (cl-ppcre:scan "^known" str) 2015-07-31T14:27:22Z z0d: ignore-errors is not a good way IMO 2015-07-31T14:27:27Z H4ns: or (cl-ppcre:scan "(?i)^known" str) 2015-07-31T14:27:29Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T14:27:34Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:27:34Z H4ns: ignore-errors is totally wrong. 2015-07-31T14:27:49Z easye` joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:27:51Z oGMo: MISMATCH is another possibility 2015-07-31T14:27:52Z knobo: ok, that is what I wanted to know 2015-07-31T14:28:00Z knobo: oGMo: mismatch have the same problem 2015-07-31T14:28:25Z oGMo: knobo: you don't need to use :end 2015-07-31T14:28:46Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T14:28:57Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T14:29:26Z easye quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T14:29:28Z easye` quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-31T14:29:41Z H4ns: if you use individual calls to various functions, you end up with something that is much harder to read than a simple regular expression. 2015-07-31T14:29:49Z easye joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:30:16Z knobo: oGMo: I can use (let ((mis (mismatch str "known")) (or (not mis) (eql 5 mis)))) 2015-07-31T14:30:31Z H4ns: mhhh 2015-07-31T14:30:44Z oGMo: knobo: yeah though as H4ns said, not necessarily clearer 2015-07-31T14:30:46Z knobo: i think cp-ppcre is the easies solution 2015-07-31T14:31:23Z oGMo: doubtless 2015-07-31T14:31:32Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:31:49Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-07-31T14:32:16Z oGMo: or, obviously you could write a STRING-MATCHES function yourself that does the few statements from above 2015-07-31T14:32:53Z oGMo: but a lot of things already use cl-ppcre, so it's very probably already loaded 2015-07-31T14:32:55Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:33:17Z _death: I'd use alexandria:starts-with-subseq 2015-07-31T14:33:31Z knobo: _death: thanx! <3 2015-07-31T14:35:41Z jcp joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:36:05Z jcp is now known as Guest32426 2015-07-31T14:36:49Z Guest32426 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T14:36:49Z Kruppe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T14:37:40Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:41:53Z jcmdln joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:42:24Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:43:16Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:45:44Z quazimod2 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-31T14:46:19Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T14:48:37Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:49:36Z guicho quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-31T14:49:46Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-07-31T14:50:52Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T14:57:32Z Vityok: btw, while we are at it: there are ways to search for substring matches than the standard search function 2015-07-31T14:57:53Z Vityok: cl-string-match implements some of them 2015-07-31T14:58:41Z jcmdln quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T14:58:48Z H4ns: right. why use something as common and well-understood like regular expressions if we can also express our smugness using arcane libraries and badly named special functions!? 2015-07-31T15:00:34Z Vityok: H4ns: because sometimes arcane functions work faster than better established alternatives 2015-07-31T15:01:45Z Vityok: even if CL-PPCRE uses Boyer-Moore-Horspool to match static strings under the hood, taking a shortcut without an overhead might be a preferred way in some cases 2015-07-31T15:02:14Z H4ns: Vityok: in some rare cases, true. sometimes, one must even use assembly language. 2015-07-31T15:03:34Z Vityok: and in some not so rare cases people might want to use a BMH mather without all the overhead associated with a regexp engine 2015-07-31T15:03:44Z balle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T15:04:07Z knobo: alexandria is also used quite much. I looked at the code, and it uses mismatch. I don't know if it is fast though. I guess so. 2015-07-31T15:04:49Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:05:30Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T15:05:51Z knobo: it's cl-ppcre takes about 4.5 times as long 2015-07-31T15:06:08Z H4ns: knobo: are you working on very performance critical code? 2015-07-31T15:06:38Z knobo: H4ns: I don't know. 2015-07-31T15:07:00Z knobo: H4ns: I just fixed a bug. 2015-07-31T15:07:23Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:07:35Z knobo: H4ns: I don't realy need to do it so thoroughly. But I'm also refreshing my lisp. 2015-07-31T15:08:05Z knobo: https://github.com/knobo/clack/commit/60d3362477e453b36a5e9df5ac00b0d2912ee425 2015-07-31T15:08:25Z jcmdln joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:08:58Z H4ns: knobo: that looks rather clear, and also sufficiently low-level to reach out for starts-with-subseq 2015-07-31T15:09:30Z knobo: H4ns: that is what I was hoping. 2015-07-31T15:12:09Z kilfer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T15:12:47Z kilfer joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:16:05Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T15:17:46Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:17:46Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:18:01Z smokeink: QPixmap::fromImage() needs the actual reference to the object : QPixmap::fromImage(*img) . in my lisp code i have a cffi object All Slots: CLASS = 11844 , POINTER = #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X7FFFE41129F0) . Passing it to (#_QPixmap::fromImage HERE) gives segmentation fault. What's a way to solve this? 2015-07-31T15:18:39Z smokeink: that cffi object is like a pointer, right? 2015-07-31T15:19:34Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:22:05Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:23:29Z knobo left #lisp 2015-07-31T15:24:20Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T15:25:46Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:25:48Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T15:27:11Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T15:28:00Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T15:28:13Z ehu1 is now known as ehu 2015-07-31T15:28:36Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-31T15:29:09Z gendl_ quit (Quit: gendl_) 2015-07-31T15:29:24Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:34:50Z jcmdln quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T15:35:18Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-31T15:36:25Z jcmdln joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:43:50Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T15:43:59Z verbgarden quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T15:45:23Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:46:23Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:48:24Z benbru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T15:49:30Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:53:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:53:37Z otome joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:54:24Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-31T15:58:06Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T15:58:46Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:00:30Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:03:27Z Vityok quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-07-31T16:04:18Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:04:36Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:04:39Z angus` left #lisp 2015-07-31T16:04:57Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:05:57Z kilon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T16:10:58Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:11:04Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:12:15Z spew joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:12:23Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:13:39Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:14:08Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T16:15:37Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:15:38Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:15:38Z jsgrant- joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:15:54Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:16:08Z sdemarre left #lisp 2015-07-31T16:16:47Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:18:01Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:18:11Z yenda- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:18:38Z kvsari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:20:12Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:20:39Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:21:03Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:22:06Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:26:53Z flash- joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:27:00Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T16:28:59Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:29:53Z knobo: Lisping doesn't cause any physical harm, but it can feel embarrassing or cause people to tease the lisper. 2015-07-31T16:31:13Z kresk joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:32:25Z Lycurgus: there likely have been physical harm incidents 2015-07-31T16:34:37Z ghard: I did hurt my back a bit while lifting a Symbolics monitor once. 2015-07-31T16:34:45Z knobo: I know of a large norwegian telecom company who has been trying to get rid of it's lisp for many many years. 2015-07-31T16:34:55Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T16:36:50Z jsgrant- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:37:30Z jsgrant_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:38:35Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:38:42Z pjb: oleo: sicp is not scheme, it is programming. 2015-07-31T16:40:19Z pjb: oleo: http://eli.thegreenplace.net/tag/sicp 2015-07-31T16:40:39Z drmeister: 25 stereoisomers of a molecule built using Cando: http://i.imgur.com/2ouwuBo.png 2015-07-31T16:40:59Z drmeister: Cando runs within Clasp and uses Common Lisp as its scripting language 2015-07-31T16:41:23Z drmeister: The calculations that produce these structures sometimes (twice in this case) go haywire and being able to shut one down and tell it to continue processing with a Common Lisp restart is a life saver. 2015-07-31T16:42:08Z drmeister: Running multi-hour calculations, having them crash and then trying to diagnose what went wrong is a soul-sucking exercise. 2015-07-31T16:42:08Z knobo like 2015-07-31T16:42:43Z psy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T16:43:02Z jcmdln quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T16:43:39Z pjb: Zhivago: what about fucking PAIP??? 2015-07-31T16:44:46Z pjb: minion: memo for acewonder6743: have a look at the book: "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp". 2015-07-31T16:44:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell acewonder6743 when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-31T16:45:23Z akkad: () are used for rhetoric 2015-07-31T16:45:23Z kresk quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-31T16:45:42Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:45:56Z verbgarden joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:46:19Z kilon joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:46:42Z jewel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T16:47:34Z psy joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:48:44Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:48:44Z pjb: beach: what about com.informatimago.common-lisp.heap.heap; Didn't I wrote a low level garbage collector in Common Lisp? 2015-07-31T16:49:11Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T16:50:28Z pjb: minion: memo for acewoner6743: check out com.informatimago.common-lisp.heap.heap for an example of low level memory management with pointers stuff done in CL. https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/common-lisp/heap 2015-07-31T16:50:28Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell acewoner6743 when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-31T16:50:48Z Guest35311 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-31T16:51:53Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:52:43Z pjb: You could learn some judo. If the guy begs for X in Lisp, give him X. Foremost when X is AI or some other innumerous category Lisp has been used for. It doesn't matter what part of the elephant they touch first, they don't all have to go for the trunk first. The point is to hook them! 2015-07-31T16:53:38Z psy quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-07-31T16:54:24Z jcmdln joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:54:32Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:56:29Z pjb: Also, you may redirect obvious newbies to #clnoobs. 2015-07-31T16:57:43Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:57:46Z knobo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T16:59:29Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:59:44Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T16:59:46Z Patzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:00:39Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:00:43Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:00:58Z madrik joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:01:17Z Guest35311 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:05:50Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-31T17:07:42Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:08:32Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:09:39Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-31T17:11:01Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:11:12Z ngie joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:13:05Z reb``: minion: memo for Firedancer: SBCL also runs on the Raspberry Pi. 2015-07-31T17:13:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Firedancer when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-07-31T17:14:41Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:17:11Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:17:13Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:21:04Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:21:50Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:22:02Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:22:36Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:23:17Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:25:22Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:26:11Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-07-31T17:26:57Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:28:06Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:29:24Z oconnore is now known as o`connor 2015-07-31T17:29:57Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:30:25Z Guest3136 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:30:28Z mc40a quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:30:36Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:33:41Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:34:53Z Guest3136 left #lisp 2015-07-31T17:35:15Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:35:27Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:36:30Z clique left #lisp 2015-07-31T17:39:24Z ZabaQ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T17:39:47Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:40:00Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:42:52Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T17:43:16Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:43:29Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:43:45Z kushal quit (Excess Flood) 2015-07-31T17:48:18Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:53:48Z Guest35311 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:55:16Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:57:24Z erjag joined #lisp 2015-07-31T17:58:19Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:58:51Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T17:59:01Z akkad: the rasberry pi is not an isa 2015-07-31T17:59:12Z akkad: "runs on dell, and hp, and ibm laptops too" 2015-07-31T17:59:43Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-31T17:59:48Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:00:11Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-07-31T18:00:25Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:01:23Z jlarocco_work: Since people are mentioning Raspberry Pi + Lisp... I wrapper for WiringPi a few months ago: https://github.com/jl2/wpi 2015-07-31T18:01:33Z jlarocco_work: *I wrote a wraper 2015-07-31T18:01:36Z jlarocco_work: wrapper 2015-07-31T18:01:49Z jlarocco_work: i was even able to do it without being able to type 2015-07-31T18:02:46Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:03:30Z Guest35311 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:03:36Z akersof joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:03:57Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:05:51Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T18:08:33Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:09:50Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:14:13Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:15:17Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:15:18Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-07-31T18:15:18Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:17:45Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T18:19:02Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T18:20:39Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:23:42Z warweasle left #lisp 2015-07-31T18:23:43Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T18:26:23Z badkins quit 2015-07-31T18:27:33Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:28:05Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T18:29:12Z jself left #lisp 2015-07-31T18:38:16Z benbru joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:40:53Z benbru quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-31T18:41:29Z clique joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:41:48Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:44:15Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T18:44:43Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:46:24Z jsgrant- joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:46:26Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:46:29Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:46:46Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T18:48:50Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:48:52Z benbru joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:51:51Z jsgrant- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T18:52:23Z jsgrant- joined #lisp 2015-07-31T18:52:43Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T18:54:30Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T18:56:11Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-07-31T18:58:34Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T18:59:14Z jsgrant- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-31T18:59:40Z jsgrant- joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:01:01Z verbgarden quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:01:48Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-07-31T19:02:56Z vaporatorius__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T19:04:28Z jsgrant- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:07:10Z jsgrant_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:07:21Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:10:29Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:11:11Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:12:55Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:14:31Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:14:35Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:15:43Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:15:44Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:17:49Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:18:37Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T19:19:45Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:20:41Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:23:33Z mc40a joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:24:36Z mbrudd joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:25:17Z mbrudd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-07-31T19:25:35Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:26:53Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:29:53Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:33:02Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:33:53Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T19:41:45Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-07-31T19:45:59Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:48:19Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:48:59Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:52:56Z eazar_java4lifez joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:56:25Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:56:37Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:56:41Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T19:57:30Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-07-31T19:57:51Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2015-07-31T20:02:08Z verbgarden joined #lisp 2015-07-31T20:03:23Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T20:03:51Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-07-31T20:06:31Z MasterPiece quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-07-31T20:06:41Z kilon quit 2015-07-31T20:08:28Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-07-31T20:13:36Z leafybasil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T20:13:59Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-07-31T20:16:04Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-31T20:16:05Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-07-31T20:16:05Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-07-31T20:17:21Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T20:23:34Z drmeister: If I want to print a binary number with an argument specifying the number of digits - how do I do that? 2015-07-31T20:24:15Z drmeister: Something like (format t "~XXXX,'0b" num-bits 1) ? 2015-07-31T20:24:21Z drmeister: What is XXXX 2015-07-31T20:25:41Z drmeister: v 2015-07-31T20:26:32Z drmeister: Yesssss. (format t "~v,'0b~%" 10 1) 2015-07-31T20:26:40Z drmeister: --> 0000000001 2015-07-31T20:26:49Z drmeister: In your face C printf! 2015-07-31T20:28:16Z p_l: xD 2015-07-31T20:30:04Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-07-31T20:32:12Z verbgarden quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-31T20:32:55Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-31T20:33:25Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T20:36:06Z knobo: :) 2015-07-31T20:37:22Z akkad hands out cigars and says something about making history 2015-07-31T20:38:45Z benbru quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-07-31T20:38:45Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-07-31T20:38:46Z badkins_ quit 2015-07-31T20:40:03Z mc40a quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T20:40:33Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-07-31T20:40:58Z mc40a joined #lisp 2015-07-31T20:46:22Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T20:47:58Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T20:50:28Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T20:53:21Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T20:59:19Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T21:00:15Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:05:48Z wemeetagain quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-07-31T21:08:23Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:09:16Z zvb joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:10:55Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:16:18Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T21:21:38Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:23:26Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-07-31T21:24:16Z ben_vulpes left #lisp 2015-07-31T21:24:57Z otjura quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T21:28:32Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:29:17Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-07-31T21:32:03Z jself joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:34:19Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:36:34Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:37:55Z ceryo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-07-31T21:41:30Z Denommus quit (Quit: VACATIONS!!!!!) 2015-07-31T21:41:31Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-31T21:46:18Z gingerale-: Ooohkay, here we go. I finally figured out how to get my webserver set up with port forwarding to 8080 and iptables ports open. Now it's 1 am and I'm too tired to think how to set up a swank server I can remotely connect to in order to handle it. 2015-07-31T21:46:35Z gingerale- is now known as gingerale 2015-07-31T21:47:10Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T21:47:22Z |3b|: connect to swank through an ssh tunnel, it doesn't have enough security on its own to be on a public interface 2015-07-31T21:47:40Z gingerale: Yeah, I figured.. Just most important of all, how to leave it running after I disconnect from it. 2015-07-31T21:48:15Z |3b| tends to just run things in screen, and start swank by hand when i want to connect... people with real servers probably have better solutions 2015-07-31T21:48:29Z zvb: isn't it something easy like (progn (ql:quickload :swank) (swank:create-server :port 4005 2015-07-31T21:48:29Z zvb: :style swank:*communication-style* 2015-07-31T21:48:30Z zvb: :dont-close t))? 2015-07-31T21:48:33Z gingerale: I was thinking of doing exactly that but feeling like there has to be a better solution 2015-07-31T21:48:54Z gingerale: Oh, you just tell it to not close? 2015-07-31T21:49:05Z gingerale: I guess I could make a .lisp file with that and just sbcl --load it? 2015-07-31T21:50:21Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:50:21Z |3b|: hard to give an all-purpose answer, screen might be good enough for some, others might need automated deploy with programs watching for it to exit and restart it, etc 2015-07-31T21:50:52Z gingerale: Well it's just a development server. 2015-07-31T21:51:19Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:51:39Z ehu2 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:53:30Z gingerale: Maybe I could do something perverse for now and leave emacs --no-window-system running in screen on the server 2015-07-31T21:53:38Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:54:34Z gingerale: Oh that's odd 2015-07-31T21:54:41Z gingerale: My pipe had broken to it at some point 2015-07-31T21:54:55Z gingerale: The server is still running somewhere in it 2015-07-31T21:55:00Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-07-31T21:55:22Z gingerale: Well that's just fine by me. Goodnight. 2015-07-31T21:55:33Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:55:33Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-07-31T21:55:33Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:55:40Z ehu1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T21:56:45Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-07-31T21:57:33Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T21:57:54Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-07-31T21:59:13Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-31T22:00:14Z spew quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-07-31T22:00:51Z eazar_java4lifez quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-07-31T22:02:22Z jdtest quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2015-07-31T22:03:36Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-07-31T22:11:05Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T22:11:12Z rpg_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-07-31T22:11:19Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T22:14:36Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-07-31T22:16:30Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-07-31T22:16:30Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-07-31T22:18:55Z ehu2 is now known as ehu 2015-07-31T22:20:14Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T22:27:25Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-07-31T22:32:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T22:33:59Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-07-31T22:36:52Z otwieracz: drmeister: congrats on clasp performance :) 2015-07-31T22:36:57Z otwieracz: (blog entry) 2015-07-31T22:37:04Z drmeister: otwieracz: Thanks! 2015-07-31T22:37:18Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-31T22:38:40Z otwieracz: And this is funny, that SBCL is fater than C++. 2015-07-31T22:41:07Z mea-culpa: otwieracz drmeister: what blog entry? 2015-07-31T22:41:23Z otwieracz: https://drmeister.wordpress.com/2015/07/30/timing-data-comparing-cclasp-to-c-sbcl-and-python/ 2015-07-31T22:42:30Z mea-culpa: otwieracz: thanks, it's interesting 2015-07-31T22:42:57Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-07-31T22:48:51Z knobo: I've never used prog or progv. Any other funny functions or macros I should play with today? 2015-07-31T22:50:28Z s00pcan quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-07-31T22:52:23Z zvb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T22:54:50Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-31T22:55:11Z knobo: not much used by other either: rgrep "(prog " quicklisp/ 2015-07-31T22:56:58Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-07-31T23:01:33Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-07-31T23:03:28Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-07-31T23:05:01Z Beetny quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T23:08:37Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T23:11:32Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T23:12:51Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T23:13:03Z jeremiahlarocco_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T23:13:26Z jeremiahlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-07-31T23:14:07Z jasom: knobo: there's a couple of other macros that have an implicit tagbody 2015-07-31T23:14:10Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-07-31T23:14:55Z jasom: e.g. all the macros starting with do 2015-07-31T23:16:43Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-07-31T23:17:51Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T23:23:25Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-07-31T23:23:26Z White_Flame: I'm again pondering McCLIM for complex interactive UIs 2015-07-31T23:23:46Z White_Flame: last release was 2008; is there still work going on without major releases, or is it kind of stagnant? 2015-07-31T23:24:52Z White_Flame: the wiki, mailing lists, etc are 404 2015-07-31T23:25:06Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-07-31T23:27:58Z erjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-07-31T23:34:56Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-07-31T23:36:16Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T23:37:40Z cyphase quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-07-31T23:43:52Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T23:44:20Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-07-31T23:44:21Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T23:48:38Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-07-31T23:50:15Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-07-31T23:55:22Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection)