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2015-07-01T00:45:26Z gabriel_laddel: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3068978379837591@naggum.no.html
2015-07-01T00:46:09Z gabriel_laddel: C++ tries very hard to be an object-oriented language, but doesn't quite make it. C++ is an extremely complex language, as evidenced by the draft ISO standard. the syntax is so complex that common tools to parse and process programming languages fail to handle C++. the precise meaning of several of its constructs is still open to debate, and several vendors who have produced large C++ systems still disagree prof
2015-07-01T00:46:09Z gabriel_laddel: oundly on what they mean. C++ leaves a lot to the implementation for the same reason C does, but that reason was valid for C. the previous draft standard was rejected by the international programming language community, as being grossly inadequate for an international standard. it is unlikely that C++ will reach standard status for several years, still. even if it does become a standard, the vendors in the C++ m
2015-07-01T00:46:09Z gabriel_laddel: arket are not known for their willingness to follow standards in the first place, and some even make a point of doing weird things that lock you into their environment. the creator of C++, quote a Bell Labs proverd that "language design is library design", so you improve the C++ system to meet your needs by adding new objects and new functions for them, but you cannot expand on existing objects. it is possible to
2015-07-01T00:46:09Z gabriel_laddel: learn C++ well in about 18 months, but it takes several years to become, and constant vigilance to remain, an expert, since the language is still in flux. (I programmed in C++ for about a year (less than it took to learn it well, which is why I quit -- life is too long to know C++ well), but still help others understand C++ concepts by relating to other languages (typically C and Lisp) where the concepts are much b
2015-07-01T00:46:09Z gabriel_laddel: etter expressed.)
2015-07-01T00:46:44Z gabriel_laddel: also: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3103356827666810@naggum.no.html
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2015-07-01T00:47:07Z gabriel_laddel: ^ re: C++'s standard.
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2015-07-01T01:07:46Z Bike: format incantation question: i have a list of lists, like let's say ((1 2) (2 3)). i'd like to print a comma separated list where each sublist has some sub-control-string, but i don't want to print the trailing comma. anyone know?
2015-07-01T01:08:09Z Bike: like, for ((1 2) (2 3)) maybe i want "1 + 2, 2 + 3" out. ~:{~d + ~d~^, ~} doesn't work.
2015-07-01T01:10:33Z nyef: Hang on, I've had to do something like this.
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2015-07-01T01:13:10Z nyef: "~:{~d + ~d~#[~:;, ~]~}" ...) is probably not quite what you need, but could be in the right direction.
2015-07-01T01:13:16Z pillton: (format nil "~{~{~d + ~d~}~^, ~}" '((1 2) (2 3)))
2015-07-01T01:13:24Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-07-01T01:13:29Z nyef: Or that? I don't know.
2015-07-01T01:13:34Z Bike: gosh.
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2015-07-01T01:13:52Z Bike: well, it works. much obliged.
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2015-07-01T01:16:04Z pillton: Like regular expressions, FORMAT is remarkable and unmemorable. :)
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2015-07-01T01:21:57Z drjeats: hi, I'm making a shitty toy lisp in C. I'm adding simple exception handling, and although the guide I'm following suggested a global exception state (like python), I think I'd rather add an IsError flag to a value's flags and check for that at appropriate times to start stack unwinding. am I about to make a horrible mistake?
2015-07-01T01:22:17Z Bike: "a value's flags"?
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2015-07-01T01:23:46Z nyef: You might be about to make a mistake. Remember to decouple the unwind part from the finding a handler for the exception part, and allow the exception handler to chose from some set of "restarts", being different places to unwind to.
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2015-07-01T01:24:22Z nyef: Or, more accurately, being different functions to run that unwind to different places.
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2015-07-01T01:27:20Z drmeister: Warning: Don't purchase the "Let Over Lambda" book on Apple iBooks. The code samples are mangled to the point where they are unreadable.
2015-07-01T01:27:43Z nyef: You are obtaining a refund, I hope?
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2015-07-01T01:27:52Z drjeats: nyef: is that for handling resumption? I'm not sure if I'm at the point where I can implement that, this is sort of a dopey recursive tree-walking interpreter
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2015-07-01T01:28:18Z nyef: drjeats: Do you have BLOCK/RETURN-FROM, CATCH/THROW, or TAGBODY/GO ?
2015-07-01T01:28:36Z nyef: In the common-lisp sense, that is?
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2015-07-01T01:29:42Z drmeister: drjeats: Stop - whatever you are doing - don't go further. Shitty toy lisps in C are a gateway drug to writing your own implementation of Common Lisp. Just stop - your wife and children will thank me.
2015-07-01T01:29:45Z drjeats: nyef: Just CATCH/THROW. I haven't delved into CL yet, only have done simple elisp and clojure so far
2015-07-01T01:29:46Z drmeister: :-)
2015-07-01T01:29:48Z nyef: (TAGBODY/GO and BLOCK/RETURN-FROM require lexical nesting to resolve the control-flow, but they are, fundamentally, unwind operations. CATCH/THROW uses an object as a catch tag.)
2015-07-01T01:30:09Z drjeats: drmeister: I appreciate your concern, lol. I'm not married though, so can I keep going?
2015-07-01T01:30:23Z nyef: Oh, and drmeister knows what he's talking about with simple toy lisps being gateway drugs.
2015-07-01T01:30:25Z drmeister: Oh - then knock yourself out.
2015-07-01T01:30:52Z drjeats: oh wait shit you're clasp guy
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2015-07-01T01:31:10Z drjeats: the google talk you gave was really cool
2015-07-01T01:31:23Z drmeister: Oh thank you very much!
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2015-07-01T01:32:47Z drjeats: @Bike (late response, soz!) I have a Value struct that has a type tag and flags field for stuffing things in. is that super gross?
2015-07-01T01:33:13Z Bike: kinda yeah
2015-07-01T01:33:32Z Bike: i mean, imagine trying to put that in a register for instance
2015-07-01T01:33:53Z drjeats: it's definitely...piggy
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2015-07-01T01:49:04Z drjeats: TIL about block/return-from and tagbody/go
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2015-07-01T01:51:02Z drjeats: lots of stuff gonna need to change for version 0.0.0.0.2
2015-07-01T01:51:52Z drjeats: Bike: flags is gross, but unless you do NaN tagging, the type tag is at least required, right?
2015-07-01T01:52:27Z Bike: without type erasure, yeah
2015-07-01T01:52:58Z Bike: even then you can have integers by putting 30 bits or so in the high bits and use the lower two for tag, and stuff like that
2015-07-01T01:53:30Z drmeister: What is type erasure?
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2015-07-01T01:53:45Z drmeister: wiki has an answer
2015-07-01T01:54:24Z nyef: ... Is "NaN tagging" as twisted a concept as it sounds/
2015-07-01T01:54:26Z nyef: ?
2015-07-01T01:54:33Z Bike: yes
2015-07-01T01:54:34Z drjeats: yup
2015-07-01T01:54:47Z Bike: it's just that there's a lot of bit patterns than mean NaN, so you stuff other stuff in there
2015-07-01T01:54:54Z Bike: if you hate truth and beauty
2015-07-01T01:55:43Z nyef: Using double-floats for all numbers, a NaN-type float for everything else, a handful of bits for actual type information, and the rest of the mantissa for pointer or immediate data?
2015-07-01T01:56:10Z Bike: yeah, something like that.
2015-07-01T01:56:22Z Bike: i don't know if any production system does it. maybe some javascript? i think that's where i heard of it.
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2015-07-01T01:56:55Z nyef: That's... probably appropriate for a language with only the one numeric type, but at the same time fairly horrible.
2015-07-01T01:56:56Z Bike: JavaScriptCore in webkit, apparently
2015-07-01T01:57:10Z Bike: source: some blog post
2015-07-01T01:57:16Z drjeats: the wingolog one?
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2015-07-01T01:57:33Z Bike: yes
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2015-07-01T01:58:14Z Bike: as it also mentions, v8 doesn't do it because it just doesn't use tags in regs if there's enough information
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2015-07-01T02:58:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-07-01T03:00:46Z gabriel_laddel: good morning
2015-07-01T03:01:26Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-07-01T03:02:13Z nyef has just run into trying to deal with colors in CLX.
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2015-07-01T03:03:53Z beach: nyef: It's a bit messy, but you can probably assume truecolor (or whatever it's called) only.
2015-07-01T03:04:25Z nyef: Yeah, I'm figuring to start with the n=1 case for now.
2015-07-01T03:06:26Z nyef: Also, once again, "let's arbitrarily transform a clipping-region, won't that be fun?!?" /-:
2015-07-01T03:07:40Z beach: I thought you decided to stick to rectangles and rectilinear transformations. No?
2015-07-01T03:08:01Z nyef: That I had.
2015-07-01T03:09:05Z nyef: But at the same time, there's some crazy stuff in this spec.
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2015-07-01T03:28:51Z emaczen: What can I do when parenscript produces javascript that causes the browser a stackoverflow? I'm quite baffled considering the code is just: (loop ... collect (loop ... collect (funcall function args)))
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2015-07-01T03:30:43Z Bike: well, look at the javascript, for one
2015-07-01T03:34:15Z Zhivago: javascript, like CL, has an implementation dependent stack depth limit.
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2015-07-01T03:34:39Z Zhivago: The js backtrace should be illuminating.
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2015-07-01T03:36:43Z emaczen: Zhivago: Where can I find the backtrace?
2015-07-01T03:40:20Z Zhivago: Perhaps window.onerror = function (errorMsg, url, lineNumber, column, errorObj) { console.log('' + errorObj.stack); } ?
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2015-07-01T04:10:22Z phf: is there a handy paredit function to reverse the order of sexp at current depth?
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2015-07-01T04:13:24Z pjb: phf: no, but there's the standard emacs transpose-sexp command: C-M-t
2015-07-01T04:14:12Z pjb: minion: memo for contrapunctus: you can use a macro to denote tail calls that will hide the transformation into an iteration. Several of them float arround but it will probably be faster to write your own.
2015-07-01T04:14:12Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell contrapunctus when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-07-01T04:14:59Z pjb: minion: memo for contrapunctus: I wouldn't call "programmer" somebody who has difficulty reading a recursive function.
2015-07-01T04:14:59Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell contrapunctus when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-07-01T04:16:33Z kristof: recursive functions are often simpler that iterative ones.
2015-07-01T04:17:05Z beach: and iterative functions are often simpler than recursive ones.
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2015-07-01T04:19:40Z nyef: Which is odd, because they're isomorphic.
2015-07-01T04:20:54Z nyef: Perhaps there's some sort of threshold effect in terms of the complexity of the control logic and the data flow involved in each step of the iteration or recursion?
2015-07-01T04:21:55Z nyef: (If this is the case, then one can determine an approximate value of the threshold and use it to define an heuristic for when to prefer one over the other.)
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2015-07-01T04:22:16Z kristof: nyef: Easy. Is your datastructure recursive or not?
2015-07-01T04:22:21Z beach: I don't know. What I do know is that for traversing linear data structures such as lists or vectors, iteration is often easier, and for traversing more complex ones such as trees, recursion is definitely simpler.
2015-07-01T04:23:26Z nyef: Okay, with a tree the recursion is simpler because the information about the backtracking required is implicit in the control stack.
2015-07-01T04:23:48Z beach: Yep.
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2015-07-01T04:24:08Z nyef: kristof: What if I'm stepping one of each?
2015-07-01T04:24:11Z beach: And with linear types, you often don't need to backtrack.
2015-07-01T04:24:53Z nyef: kristof: Worse, what if I'm _conditionally_ stepping one of each?
2015-07-01T04:25:08Z pjb: But even for multiple recursion (tree-like), it is sometimes better to use an iteration with an explicit stack.
2015-07-01T04:26:17Z kristof: :o
2015-07-01T04:27:05Z kristof: nyef: I would opt for a recursive algorithm still, and pass an iterator along as one of the arguments
2015-07-01T04:28:14Z pjb: My advice is to abstract it away using a macro, so you get the best of two: a recursive high level view, and an iterative implementation.
2015-07-01T04:29:07Z nyef: ... But do you?
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2015-07-01T04:30:11Z nyef: After all, as soon as the use of the stack is made explicit (or tail-call optimization is involved), your recursive implementation becomes iterative.
2015-07-01T04:32:44Z Zhivago: Rather, as soon as you make it clear that backtracking is not involved, it becomes iterative.
2015-07-01T04:33:10Z Zhivago: Using a special stack for backtracking is just an implementation detail.
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2015-07-01T04:40:41Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, Hunchentoot 1.2.32, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14 flexi-streams 1.0.15
2015-07-01T04:40:56Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, Hunchentoot 1.2.32, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14, flexi-streams 1.0.15
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2015-07-01T04:51:54Z drmeister: beach: Hi - I asked about the convert-constant-to-immediate a couple of times but I kept forgetting to implement it. That's probably why you thought I'd implemented it. Sorry.
2015-07-01T04:52:16Z drmeister: By "forgetting" I mean distracted by other things that were broken.
2015-07-01T04:52:27Z drmeister: I just implemented it.
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2015-07-01T04:58:38Z beach: drmeister: Great.
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2015-07-01T05:01:43Z drmeister: As I mentioned yesterday, I have a compiler macro that converts (+ x y z) --> (two-arg-+ (two-arg-+ x y) z)
2015-07-01T05:01:54Z drmeister: Then to inline it I use something like:
2015-07-01T05:01:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/31H4V2pc/
2015-07-01T05:02:29Z drmeister: I need to inline fixnump and a cleavir-primop:fixnump - correct?
2015-07-01T05:03:34Z beach: Is there a cleavir-primop:fixnump?
2015-07-01T05:03:41Z beach: If not, use TYPEQ.
2015-07-01T05:03:43Z drmeister: Not at the moment.
2015-07-01T05:04:06Z beach: OK, is there a fixnump instruction?
2015-07-01T05:04:20Z drmeister: Good question - checking.
2015-07-01T05:04:51Z beach: There is.
2015-07-01T05:04:54Z drmeister: Yes.
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2015-07-01T05:05:51Z drmeister: I don't translate it to LLVM-IR.
2015-07-01T05:05:55Z beach: It is probably easiest to convert the TYPEQ ... FIXNUM AST to a fixnump instruction.
2015-07-01T05:06:10Z beach: That way we don't need to introduce new ASTs and new primops.
2015-07-01T05:06:42Z beach: You should translate that instruction to a few MIR instructions.
2015-07-01T05:07:12Z beach: Or, just one, I guess.
2015-07-01T05:07:25Z drmeister: Like this? ((and (typeq x fixnum-ast) (typeq y fixnum-ast))
2015-07-01T05:07:27Z beach: Check whether the least significant bit is 0.
2015-07-01T05:07:34Z drmeister: Right.
2015-07-01T05:07:43Z beach: (typeq x fixnum)
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2015-07-01T05:08:27Z beach: That will turn into a TYPEQ-AST with FIXNUM as the type.
2015-07-01T05:09:08Z beach: Then we can turn that AST into a FIXNUMP-INSTRUCTION.
2015-07-01T05:09:17Z drmeister: Checking...
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2015-07-01T05:14:01Z drmeister: Slime is compiling... compiling... compiling...
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2015-07-01T05:14:47Z drmeister: I screwed something up. (sigh) fixing...
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2015-07-01T05:16:51Z phf: does sbcl have an equivalent of ccl's with-input-from-vector?
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2015-07-01T05:23:02Z drmeister: beach: I think I screwed it up for the night - it's going to take me a while to fix this. So I'll work on it and get back to you in the next couple of days. If I can get TWO-ARG-+ to inline fixnum/fixnum addition then I can work on my own for a while implementing other primops.
2015-07-01T05:23:27Z beach: drmeister: OK. Take your time.
2015-07-01T05:24:57Z drmeister: Once I inline fixnum-+ and fixnum-< then I should be able to write some test code that does integer looping and arithmetic that doesn't cons anything and doesn't call out to any functions. That will be a good test of what I can achieve with LLVM-IR.
2015-07-01T05:25:24Z beach: Yes, I agree.
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2015-07-01T05:26:10Z drmeister: "God made the integers, all else is the work of man." - Leopold Kronecker
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2015-07-01T05:27:12Z easye: drmeister: Amen.
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2015-07-01T05:29:48Z beach: drmeister: You seem to have created a significant fan club around Clasp. Congratulations!
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2015-07-01T05:33:04Z akkad: CL on llvm has been the holy grail for some
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2015-07-01T05:35:25Z drmeister: Thank you.
2015-07-01T05:36:12Z drmeister: Ah - my problem is my fasl file for ASDF is out of date.
2015-07-01T05:36:20Z drmeister: Recompiling.
2015-07-01T05:37:09Z drmeister: akkad: They put some effort into it at Google but gave up. I'm not sure how much effort.
2015-07-01T05:37:51Z drmeister: beach: It's only going to happen because of Cleavir.
2015-07-01T05:37:57Z beach: drmeister: Clearly, your excellent presentation skills play an important role.
2015-07-01T05:38:31Z beach: drmeister: Maybe you should figure out how to use those skills even more to your advantage.
2015-07-01T05:38:38Z beach: Like become a politician. :)
2015-07-01T05:39:05Z beach: Or just convince the NSF to let you give a presentation to support your grant proposeals.
2015-07-01T05:39:08Z beach: proposals.
2015-07-01T05:39:29Z beach: s/NSF/DoD/
2015-07-01T05:39:36Z drmeister: Thank you.
2015-07-01T05:39:39Z drmeister: Working on it.
2015-07-01T05:40:02Z beach: drmeister: But I am probably not telling you something you don't already know.
2015-07-01T05:41:16Z drmeister: I can only speak that way because I've got a plan and I'm well along that plan.
2015-07-01T05:41:48Z beach: drmeister: Maybe so. But many people have a plan but are still unable to communicate it.
2015-07-01T05:42:24Z drmeister: Teaching undergraduate classes has been valuable.
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2015-07-01T06:09:22Z drmeister: convert-constant-to-immediate is working.
2015-07-01T06:09:45Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/hiEQRVu.png
2015-07-01T06:10:14Z drmeister: beach: This is produced from: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda (x y) (+ x y 123456)) :debug t)
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2015-07-01T06:13:31Z otwieracz: Huh, nice.
2015-07-01T06:16:36Z drmeister: Hmm, but it crashes LLVM I think because I'm trying to put an integer into a pointer.
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2015-07-01T06:19:53Z dnm: Hi all.
2015-07-01T06:20:10Z dnm: What are people's favorites/suggestions for CL code to emit PostScript?
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2015-07-01T06:20:54Z dnm: So far I've found: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/io/plisp/ && https://github.com/cage2/cl-pslib (binding to pslib, in C) && http://www.frank-buss.de/lisp/functional.html
2015-07-01T06:21:31Z dnm: Also looking at Vecto and CL-VECTORS, which don't handle PostScript per se, but I'll probably use Vecto too.
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2015-07-01T06:24:54Z dnm: Also found some stuff in Scheme, but in here I'm looking at CL. ;]
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2015-07-01T06:34:49Z myrk2: As far as I can tell, I can't use split-sequence to split on multi-character "word" like "<>". Is there something else I can use to split a string when on <> occurrences?
2015-07-01T06:36:50Z drmeister: beach: Fixed the problem - convert-constant-to-immediate is working fine.
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2015-07-01T06:41:13Z drmeister: beach: This is a simple dotimes loop
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2015-07-01T06:41:38Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/bsHajlm.png
2015-07-01T06:42:22Z drmeister: Code: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda (x y) (dotimes (i 10) (+ x y))) :debug t)
2015-07-01T06:42:56Z drmeister: There are only three funcalls in this, two to TWO-ARG-+ and one to TWO-ARG-<.
2015-07-01T06:43:03Z drmeister: This is ready for inlining.
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2015-07-01T06:50:32Z emaczen: Zhivago: Thanks, I figured out part of my parenscript issues but the stacktrace is unfortunately cryptic...
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2015-07-01T06:54:55Z emaczen: Can someone help me with parenscript here?
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2015-07-01T07:07:11Z Grue`: myrk2: ppcre:split
2015-07-01T07:07:30Z pjb: myrk2: there's a split-sequence-if
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2015-07-01T07:07:44Z Grue`: it still splits on only one character
2015-07-01T07:07:45Z pjb: but indeed it works only for single elements.
2015-07-01T07:07:49Z pjb: yes.
2015-07-01T07:08:32Z myrk2: So I guess I'll end up with ppcre.
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2015-07-01T07:10:39Z Grue`: I always end up with ppcre
2015-07-01T07:11:06Z myrk2: c:
2015-07-01T07:11:57Z Zhivago: If you're dealing with that a lot you might consider using streams rather than strings.
2015-07-01T07:12:22Z Zhivago: ppcre is a reasonable choice if you're wedded to string butchery.
2015-07-01T07:13:39Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/RMzvfNj.png
2015-07-01T07:14:22Z drmeister: That calculates the Nth number in the Fibonacci series
2015-07-01T07:14:50Z drmeister: (time (foo 1000)) --> 113796925398360272257523782552224175572745930353730513145086634176691092536145985470146129334641866902783673042322088625863396052888690096969577173696370562180400527049497109023054114771394568040040412172632376
2015-07-01T07:15:59Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda (a &aux x (p1 1) (p2 1)) (dotimes (i a) (setq x (+ p1 p2)) (setq p2 p1) (setq p1 x)) x) :debug t)
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2015-07-01T07:16:54Z myrk2: And when is this better than a simple sum loop?
2015-07-01T07:17:06Z drmeister: For some reason I feel better about that than I do that Clasp+Cleavir is self hosting. I guess it's because I can see the whole thing.
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2015-07-01T07:17:34Z drmeister: What's a simple sum loop?
2015-07-01T07:17:53Z Zhivago: myrk2: When you don't want to confuse yourself with loop macro insanity because you are debugging a compiler.
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2015-07-01T07:18:09Z drmeister: This is simple, it uses sums and it's got a loop.
2015-07-01T07:18:17Z jackdaniel: loop is horrible *shrug*
2015-07-01T07:18:31Z drmeister: Oh, LOOP
2015-07-01T07:18:32Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-07-01T07:18:50Z drmeister: Good night all.
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2015-07-01T07:21:05Z myrk2: And when I have a better grasp of reading from streams, I'll consider dropping ppcre, but for now, I'm ok with reading it line by line, then splitting it.
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2015-07-01T08:14:48Z loke: jackdaniel: Nothing horrible about LOOP. It embodies everythng that makes CL awesome.
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2015-07-01T08:15:38Z jackdaniel: loke: arguably
2015-07-01T08:16:26Z p_l: my only issue with loop is lack of standard protocol for extensibility
2015-07-01T08:16:41Z p_l: (something that is common with normal sequence type)
2015-07-01T08:17:28Z jackdaniel: afair iterate does that (is designed to be extensible)
2015-07-01T08:17:46Z loke: p_l: I can agree with you there
2015-07-01T08:18:41Z loke: CL would benefit greatly from extensible sequences in any case
2015-07-01T08:18:49Z loke: SBCL has them, but being standard would be neat.
2015-07-01T08:19:36Z jackdaniel: abcl has them as well
2015-07-01T08:19:58Z loke: jackdaniel: Yes, and probably others too. But they all use different API’s :-(
2015-07-01T08:20:27Z jackdaniel: I think only sbcl and abcl implement extensible sequences
2015-07-01T08:20:45Z loke: Not even LW and Allegro?
2015-07-01T08:21:14Z jackdaniel: and api is clearly explained in paper, I see no reason to present incompatible apis
2015-07-01T08:21:20Z p_l: loke: the extensible-sequences code&spec was part of the CDR initiative
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2015-07-01T08:22:06Z loke: Well that initiative was a termendous failure, with (as far as I know) exactly zero of them being actually implemented anywhere.
2015-07-01T08:22:08Z jackdaniel: p_l: which cdr?
2015-07-01T08:22:17Z jackdaniel: loke: not true
2015-07-01T08:22:19Z p_l: loke: two of them are
2015-07-01T08:22:25Z loke: p_l: which ones?
2015-07-01T08:22:33Z jackdaniel: cdr5 is implemented in ECL for instance
2015-07-01T08:22:37Z p_l: one is grandfathered in (MOP), the other is extensible sequences iirc
2015-07-01T08:22:49Z jackdaniel: p_l: which cdr treats about extensible sequences?
2015-07-01T08:24:02Z p_l: huh, just checked, it appears it isn't part of it... I was pretty sure that's where I have seen it
2015-07-01T08:24:29Z jackdaniel: but api is in paper
2015-07-01T08:24:37Z jackdaniel: I think it could end in cdr
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2015-07-01T08:30:31Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for Xof: is there a chance that "User-extensible sequences in Common Lisp" will land in CDR (https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/)?
2015-07-01T08:30:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Xof when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-07-01T08:32:23Z tjscanlon: Hi, probably not the best place to ask this :) but is Common Lisp the best Lisp for writing commercial applications?
2015-07-01T08:32:45Z jackdaniel: it is considered production stable, so yes
2015-07-01T08:32:59Z jackdaniel: on the other hand clojure seems to be more common pick
2015-07-01T08:33:14Z jackdaniel: s/pick/choice/
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2015-07-01T08:35:58Z H4ns: tjscanlon: "best" is heavily dependent on many factors, and "commercial applications" is not specific enough to narrow it down meaningfully.
2015-07-01T08:36:49Z H4ns: tjscanlon: if you provide more details about the type of applications you're thinking of, you may get a better answer, although #lisp is rather biased and "better answer" may not necessarily be "good answer" :)
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2015-07-01T09:05:51Z myrk2: Can I convert shift-jis to utf-8 with sbcl?
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2015-07-01T09:08:26Z dim: see babel
2015-07-01T09:08:32Z dim: and external-format
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2015-07-01T09:28:20Z myrk2: Thanks dim; looking.
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2015-07-01T09:56:23Z jackdaniel: or flexi-streams
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2015-07-01T10:04:16Z dim: well it depends if you convert from a file to another file or something else
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2015-07-01T10:07:29Z dim: (with-open-file (i "..." :direction :input :external-format :sjis) (with-open-file (o :direction :output :external-format :utf-8) (loop for line in (read-line i nil nil) while line (write-line line o))))
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2015-07-01T10:17:02Z myrk2: Yeah. Only, the document I'm getting is from drakma.
2015-07-01T10:17:15Z myrk2: And afaict, drakma doesn't support sjis natively.
2015-07-01T10:17:39Z H4ns: myrk2: get it as octects from drakma, use babel to convert.
2015-07-01T10:18:04Z H4ns: myrk2: drakma uses flexi-streams, so if flexi-streams supports sjis, drakma should as well
2015-07-01T10:18:11Z myrk2: Ok, I'm trying to grok babel, but the documentation seem to be nonexistent.
2015-07-01T10:18:28Z myrk2: H4ns: not according to the flexi stream docs I read today.
2015-07-01T10:18:39Z H4ns: myrk2: not much more to it than babel:octects-to-string, i thought?
2015-07-01T10:18:50Z H4ns: myrk2: ok - i was not sure.
2015-07-01T10:18:52Z myrk2: I haven't even come across an example.
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2015-07-01T10:19:38Z jackdaniel: (babel:octets-to-string vector-full-of-wild-octets-\o/ :encoding :utf-8-or-whatever)
2015-07-01T10:20:00Z myrk2: Ah, thanks.
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2015-07-01T10:20:52Z jackdaniel: but flexi-streams have really nice documentation
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2015-07-01T10:21:37Z jackdaniel: one example of "teach not show" attitude
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2015-07-01T10:22:13Z myrk2: Yeah, flex streams were ok; only sjis wasn't listed among the supported encodings.
2015-07-01T10:22:47Z jackdaniel: act now! that is - add it, so all can profit ::)
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2015-07-01T10:27:27Z scymtym: jackdaniel: SBCL's extensible sequence protocol has been slightly extended (pun intended) compared to what the paper describes
2015-07-01T10:28:22Z jackdaniel: scymtym: thanks for info. Then I think it is even more important to write cdr with something, all can agree on (for compability sake)
2015-07-01T10:28:37Z jackdaniel: s/,//
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2015-07-01T10:31:49Z scymtym: may be too early since the new stuff (specializable MAP, MERGE, CONCATENATE) has seen little use so far (as far as i know)
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2015-07-01T10:35:52Z jackdaniel: is api prone to further changes?
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2015-07-01T10:53:46Z jackdaniel: is it me, or gitlab website is down?
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2015-07-01T10:54:13Z scymtym: jackdaniel: re api change: that's hard to know until it gets used seriously. that was my point.
2015-07-01T10:54:29Z vydd: jackdaniel: 503
2015-07-01T10:55:48Z jackdaniel: scymtym: it's hard to use it seriously before wide adoption and while its not clhs compliant, cdr is semi-spec, what makes it more "adoptable"
2015-07-01T10:55:51Z jackdaniel: vydd: thanks
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2015-07-01T10:58:44Z Xach: jackdaniel: can you suggest an example of a cdr that somebody has used?
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2015-07-01T11:00:27Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/document/1/index.html (I know, I'm cheating a bit)
2015-07-01T11:00:31Z ferada: cdr 8 would be great to get more support for imo
2015-07-01T11:00:32Z scymtym: jackdaniel: i see your point, but tentative adoption could happen before a cdr since the implementation in SBCL is straightforward and well documented. on the other hand, once a cdr is accepted, it would probably be hard to make amendments based on experience using the extension.
2015-07-01T11:00:59Z scymtym is not saying a cdr is a bad idea in general
2015-07-01T11:03:21Z jackdaniel: scymtym: cdr's can be revised (ie cdr4 is revision of cdr0)
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2015-07-01T11:05:57Z scymtym: then maybe first submitting the older part of the protocol as one cdr and later the newer part as another cdr "extended² sequence protocol" would be a possibility :)
2015-07-01T11:06:27Z jackdaniel: sounds good to me :)
2015-07-01T11:06:53Z Xach: Has anyone taken the cdr system seriously?
2015-07-01T11:07:13Z Xach: No time like the present, I guess.
2015-07-01T11:08:20Z jackdaniel: Xach: well, I do, don't understand your hostility to the idea
2015-07-01T11:08:39Z jackdaniel: it's better then incompatible extensions "fixing" stuff not covered in clhs
2015-07-01T11:08:42Z Xach: jackdaniel: I don't understand how it produces anything actually usable.
2015-07-01T11:08:54Z Xach: jackdaniel: Really? Has it done that?
2015-07-01T11:09:45Z Xach: I'm trying to understand a flow from cdr to useful functionality for a CL programmer
2015-07-01T11:10:11Z Xach: It seems to me that any cdr flow could also happen without the cdr process.
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2015-07-01T11:10:22Z jackdaniel: I think some ideas need time for adoption, and simple denial is something I don't understand
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2015-07-01T11:11:38Z Xach: I think the CDR process has standardization backwards and cannot work.
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2015-07-01T11:12:07Z jackdaniel: ack
2015-07-01T11:12:30Z Xach: It seems to me like ritual without results.
2015-07-01T11:12:53Z jackdaniel: I see potential to manage implementations extensions in compatible manner
2015-07-01T11:13:20Z jackdaniel: it's all about social agreement - it can be done w/o cdr
2015-07-01T11:13:36Z gabriel_laddel: does anyone know of a decent documentation of X events?
2015-07-01T11:13:38Z jackdaniel: libraries can be managed w/o quicklisp, but it's convenient to have central place for this
2015-07-01T11:15:58Z p_l: Xach: CDR -> example implementation (preferably public domain) -> inclusion in implementations -> ???? -> PROFIT ?
2015-07-01T11:16:53Z H4ns: p_l: it seems that so far, the process has not created notable successes in terms of inclusions in implementations.
2015-07-01T11:17:03Z Xach: p_l: I don't think the motivation is good enough for step 3
2015-07-01T11:17:57Z Xach: It's possible that one good counterexample will bootstrap the CDR system into relevance.
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2015-07-01T11:19:21Z Xach: But "i have a good idea" -> "you should patch your implementation and maintain code for my idea" seems like a lot to ask, and the incentives have to be pretty good.
2015-07-01T11:19:28Z splittist: MOP -> Closer to MOP -> increased conformance at the implementation level
2015-07-01T11:19:46Z Xach: Closer-MOP is a great thing. Did that use the CDR process?
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2015-07-01T11:20:05Z splittist: Gray Streams -> commonly included -> Simple Streams are better -> ??? -> trivial-gray-streams?
2015-07-01T11:20:22Z p_l: Xach: that's why I thought about requirement being the second step - a public domain implementation of the extension with instructions about possible inclusion way (extensible-sequences contains great examples!)
2015-07-01T11:20:24Z splittist: Xach: no - precisely
2015-07-01T11:20:59Z scymtym: Xach: while true, that seems a bit unfair since closer-mop doesn't have to touch many internals while things like extensible sequences or package-local nicknames probably have to
2015-07-01T11:22:45Z Xach: scymtym: I think inclusion in an implementations sets a pretty high bar that the CDR does not (and I don't think intends to) address.
2015-07-01T11:24:08Z scymtym: Xach: true, i just wanted to point that some things can (and maybe should be done) as libraries (plus maybe a bit of monkey-patching) while others cannot
2015-07-01T11:24:22Z scymtym: s/point/point out/
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2015-07-01T11:32:11Z Xach: I like the idea of useful extensions that require implementation change. I don't think think the CDR process is a useful part of achieving that.
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2015-07-01T11:33:44Z Xach: Maybe it's just the current way people seem to be using the CDR process.
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2015-07-01T11:35:44Z scymtym: Xach: on a related note: what would it take for libraries using, for example, package-local nicknames to be accepted into quicklisp?
2015-07-01T11:36:09Z Xach: scymtym: compatible support for the feature from multiple implementations.
2015-07-01T11:38:46Z scymtym: Xach: i see, thanks
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2015-07-01T11:55:04Z Xach: luis: I'm going to push a converted darcs repo of yaclml to github (unless you are on the verge of doing it yourself)
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2015-07-01T12:02:21Z Baggers: AeroNotix: how is lispkit going?
2015-07-01T12:02:52Z AeroNotix: Baggers: hey, right now I'm super duper triple busy with work. It's serviceable and I use it when I don't need to get shit done ASAP.
2015-07-01T12:03:03Z AeroNotix: But there are some issues with it, I can't remember off the top of my head but yeah. YMMV
2015-07-01T12:03:11Z AeroNotix: also hi, love the work you've been doing
2015-07-01T12:06:19Z Baggers: thanks, I'm been using vimperator for ages but I'd love the cross that 'uncanny valley' between emacs and browser
2015-07-01T12:06:48Z gabriel_laddel: Baggers: conkeror?
2015-07-01T12:06:57Z AeroNotix: it works quite well for that. The keybindings and functionality provided is mostly there. There are some issues with e.g. link highlighting that cause browser lockups.
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2015-07-01T12:08:15Z Baggers: gabriel_laddel: conkeror and vimperator (with emacs bindings) both have different strengths compared to each other. I just keep expecting emacs to have read the text in the browser when I autocomplete (like any other buffer)
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2015-07-01T12:08:57Z Baggers: AeroNotix: Sounds like something to play with at home though. Have to be a bit more reliable at work though :D
2015-07-01T12:09:08Z AeroNotix: Baggers: yeah that's pretty much the state of things.
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2015-07-01T12:10:25Z Baggers: cool thanks for the work on it! more cool toys to play with
2015-07-01T12:11:35Z AeroNotix: Np
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2015-07-01T12:32:50Z luis: Xach: go for it!
2015-07-01T12:33:10Z newcup: Baggers: btw, recent emacsen have native browser called "eww", which works with some web pages
2015-07-01T12:33:47Z AeroNotix: https://db.tt/sp8KkSTR
2015-07-01T12:33:50Z AeroNotix: but looks like this
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2015-07-01T12:34:53Z jackdaniel: o, polski gogl :D
2015-07-01T12:35:01Z Xach: luis: done & done
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2015-07-01T12:35:11Z jackdaniel: s/gogl/gógl/
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2015-07-01T12:36:20Z jackdaniel: eww is nice for plain sites w/o js, but it binds #\& to external browser
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2015-07-01T12:36:48Z Baggers: newcup: eww locks up emacs waaay to often
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2015-07-01T12:45:17Z newcup: right. I've only used it with some simple documentation pages, which it seems to handle fine
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2015-07-01T12:54:34Z luis: Xach: you've pushed the fix also, right?
2015-07-01T12:54:44Z Xach: luis: yes.
2015-07-01T12:54:53Z Xach: and an update to the README with some sharplispers info.
2015-07-01T12:55:15Z luis: nice job. Thanks!
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2015-07-01T13:00:47Z dmitigr: hello
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2015-07-01T13:21:32Z vydd: Is there a library that can be used to generate CLOS classes from XSD?
2015-07-01T13:21:36Z jackdaniel: answer about why lisp over other languages by some guy on some thread on hackernews: Same reason I still hate doing dishes at home after using a professional-grade dish machine at work for a decade.
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2015-07-01T14:32:29Z shka_: just to be on the safe side
2015-07-01T14:32:46Z shka_: if i have function that accepts clos object
2015-07-01T14:33:03Z shka_: it's ok to declare type as the parent class, right?
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2015-07-01T14:35:26Z williamyao: As long as increasing the domain of your function is what's desired.
2015-07-01T14:36:36Z shka_: ok, thanks
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2015-07-01T14:51:37Z synergy_: Can you say that the base unit of an s-expression is an atom?
2015-07-01T14:52:14Z shka_: synergy_: hmm i would say no
2015-07-01T14:52:18Z shka_: since (atom atom)
2015-07-01T14:52:35Z williamyao: The base unit of a sexp is a sexp :)
2015-07-01T14:52:49Z shka_: but you can say that sexp are composed of lists and atoms
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2015-07-01T14:53:01Z shka_: at least that's what i think
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2015-07-01T14:53:36Z synergy_: So do lists eventually terminate into atoms?
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2015-07-01T14:54:02Z synergy_: If you think about it recursively
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2015-07-01T14:55:20Z shka_: synergy_: list can be circular
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2015-07-01T14:55:26Z shka_: so it may never end :D
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2015-07-01T14:55:53Z synergy_: Heh didn't know that
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2015-07-01T14:56:27Z shka_: anywya, you can say that list is terminated when CDR points not to the cons but to the nil
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2015-07-01T14:57:12Z shka_: please note that listp returns t for nil
2015-07-01T14:57:27Z shka_: but consp not
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2015-07-01T14:59:57Z dlowe: "the base unit of an s-expression" is semantically empty
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2015-07-01T15:00:56Z oGMo: yeah that's not meaningful, isn't it just defined as "a list or an atom"?
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2015-07-01T15:02:02Z Bike: if you mean base as in the non recursive case of a recursive function, eval, then it's pretty much atoms
2015-07-01T15:02:05Z ggole: If you think about recursive analyses of sexps, atoms are the base case
2015-07-01T15:02:23Z synergy_: Ok that makes sense
2015-07-01T15:02:56Z Bike: unless there's a symbol macro, i guess
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2015-07-01T15:04:04Z oGMo: ggole: probably not great, since in one case, they're both ;)
2015-07-01T15:05:06Z ggole: Both what? A list or an atom?
2015-07-01T15:05:09Z jackdaniel: 23 files changed, 6 insertions(+), 272 deletions(-) \o/
2015-07-01T15:05:22Z oGMo: also there is nothing guaranteeing termination; you could have nothing but list all the way down
2015-07-01T15:05:27Z oGMo: ggole: both a list and an atom
2015-07-01T15:05:39Z synergy_: Why is the second element of a cons object called the cdr?
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2015-07-01T15:05:55Z loz: something - data - register
2015-07-01T15:05:59Z jackdaniel: it is historical name
2015-07-01T15:06:00Z Bike: it's "historical", meaning just gibberish
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2015-07-01T15:06:02Z ggole: You could just say a cons or an atom instead then
2015-07-01T15:06:03Z loz: car is address register
2015-07-01T15:06:10Z jackdaniel: synergy_: you can safely use (rest list) instead of (cdr list)
2015-07-01T15:06:15Z Bike: like how "to be" somehow conjugates as "is"
2015-07-01T15:06:38Z loz: he just asked why, not what to use instead :D
2015-07-01T15:06:44Z eudoxia: i always use (first cons) and (rest cons)
2015-07-01T15:06:51Z eudoxia: i don't recall the last time i used car and cdr
2015-07-01T15:06:51Z ggole: Also, I would expect cyclic sexp-structure to break almost everything written to work over sexps
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2015-07-01T15:07:02Z loz: car and cdr are simply shorter
2015-07-01T15:07:03Z jackdaniel: loz: ssh ;) but yes, mb
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2015-07-01T15:07:05Z Xach: i use car and cdr when i'm working on conses as trees.
2015-07-01T15:07:11Z Xach: first and rest when working on them as lists.
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2015-07-01T15:07:26Z Xach: i don't work on them as trees that often, but when i do
2015-07-01T15:08:16Z loz: idk why are you so negative about car/cdr
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2015-07-01T15:09:12Z synergy_: But what does decrement have to do with anything/
2015-07-01T15:09:27Z synergy_: Is it like saying that the rest of the list is one decremented from the whole list?
2015-07-01T15:09:29Z jackdaniel: loz: I mostly use car/cdr
2015-07-01T15:09:42Z loz: yay, i'm not alone
2015-07-01T15:09:47Z Bike: synergy_: it's just a peculiarity of an ancient instruction set. it doesn't mean anything relevant.
2015-07-01T15:10:01Z pjb: not negative, but cons consp car cdr null is one abstraction layer, and list list* listp first rest second … tenth last butlast endp is another abstration layer.
2015-07-01T15:10:08Z pjb: Just don't mix your abstraction layers.
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2015-07-01T15:10:44Z Bike: nobody mentioned decrement registers, hmmmmmm
2015-07-01T15:10:46Z pjb: synergy_: that's even older than LISP! cf. http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html
2015-07-01T15:11:18Z pjb: Bike: it's actually Contents of Address or Decrement _part_ of Register.
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2015-07-01T15:11:28Z loz: Bike: i believed it was data register
2015-07-01T15:12:47Z pjb: loz: nope, it's a nice trick if you write assembler code, instead of using a base address and a length, to represent your memory blocks, arrays, etc, use the address beyond the end, and a decrement offset. So instead of doing base+index, you do end-decrement. Then you have all kind of nice optimizations coming out.
2015-07-01T15:12:56Z shka_: synergy_: they picked names from instruction set, and they sticked rather well
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2015-07-01T15:13:18Z pjb: the 7090 was a Lisp Machine. It even had a XEV machine instructions that was an EVAL.
2015-07-01T15:13:33Z synergy_: Lisp is interesting
2015-07-01T15:13:39Z pjb: With XEV, you could evaluate a "dynamic" instruction code.
2015-07-01T15:14:39Z pjb: synergy_: beside the address and decrement parts, there were also two 3-bit flag areas. With similar instructions to read or write them independently. So naturally they were used for type tags.
2015-07-01T15:15:14Z loz: so only nine types were supported?
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2015-07-01T15:16:33Z Bike: obviously that's why there were no strings
2015-07-01T15:17:14Z nyef: ... Nine types? What?
2015-07-01T15:17:45Z loz: hm, two areas
2015-07-01T15:17:55Z loz: thats twice wore)
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2015-07-01T15:17:59Z loz: more*
2015-07-01T15:18:16Z nyef: Two flag areas, presumably assigned one to the address field and one to the decrement field.
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2015-07-01T15:18:34Z nyef: Each flag area is three bits => eight data types for the pointers?
2015-07-01T15:18:49Z Bike: 2*3 and 2^3 are basically the same, nyef
2015-07-01T15:19:17Z Bike: as is 3^2
2015-07-01T15:19:41Z williamyao: Within one order of magnitude is good enough, I guess.
2015-07-01T15:20:06Z nyef: (* 2 3) => 6, (expt 2 3) => 8, (expt 3 2) => 9. If you're talking fermi estimates, they are all one.
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2015-07-01T15:55:30Z synergy_: How is 'nil evaluated?
2015-07-01T15:56:03Z pjb: quote is a special operator that returns its argument unevaluated. So nil is returned, unevaluated.
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2015-07-01T15:57:01Z Bike: try writing eval (for a tiny lisp, not CL), it's a good exercise
2015-07-01T15:57:08Z synergy_: Then I'm confused as to why (list 'a 'nil) is equal to (cons 'a (cons nil nil))
2015-07-01T15:57:29Z Bike: it's not
2015-07-01T15:58:03Z synergy_: No?
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2015-07-01T15:59:14Z Bike: er, yes, it is, nevermind
2015-07-01T15:59:16Z dlowe: well, they both evaluate to (A NIL)
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2015-07-01T15:59:38Z dlowe: NIL evaluates to itself
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2015-07-01T16:00:08Z dlowe: so 'NIL evaluates to NIL through the QUOTE operator, but NIL evaluates to NIL from evaluation rules
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2015-07-01T16:00:32Z pjb: Because CL:NIL is defined as (defconstant cl:nil 'cl:nil).
2015-07-01T16:01:08Z pjb: But notice that if you're in a different package with a different symbol named "NIL", then it may be different and you can have (not (eql nil 'nil)).
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2015-07-01T16:01:34Z synergy_: Ok
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2015-07-01T16:02:06Z synergy_: But 'nil represents data, correct?
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2015-07-01T16:02:53Z pjb: yes, there are conotations.
2015-07-01T16:03:20Z pjb: () is empty list in code. '() is empty list as data. nil is false. 'nil is the symbol nil as data.
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2015-07-01T16:04:56Z synergy_: I see. So what makes them different is only how they're represented?
2015-07-01T16:06:22Z pjb: how you write them in text. Once read, you have only two forms: CL:NIL and (CL:QUOTE CL:NIL) and when evaluated, both return the same object CL:NIL.
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2015-07-01T16:06:57Z pjb: CL:NIL represents the empty list, the false boolean, the absence of value, the bottom type, etc.
2015-07-01T16:07:12Z pjb: (null (values)) --> t ;-)
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2015-07-01T16:07:50Z synergy_: Ok. So what makes code different from data past how they're written in text? Like besides the quote, are '2 and 2 at all different? If not why differentiate them?
2015-07-01T16:07:57Z synergy_: Is it all semantic?
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2015-07-01T16:08:45Z loz: synergy_: (eq 2 '2) => T
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2015-07-01T16:09:00Z pjb: The textual representation we call S-expresions, or sexp, is a textual representation for lisp data.
2015-07-01T16:09:20Z loz: synergy_: 2 is evaluated to data integer holding a value of 2
2015-07-01T16:09:24Z pjb: (eq 2 '2) represents the lisp data (CL:EQ 2 (CL:QUOTE 2)).
2015-07-01T16:09:40Z loz: at least as I understand)
2015-07-01T16:09:49Z pjb: When we evaluate this lisp data, it becomes code. Code is data that is being evaluated.
2015-07-01T16:10:10Z pjb: When we compile this lisp data, it becomes source code. Source code is data that is being compiled into binary code.
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2015-07-01T16:10:17Z synergy_: Whoa, epiphany.
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2015-07-01T16:10:51Z pjb: Now the problem is that since we are evaluating our data as if it was code, we have to indicate that some parts of it is still some literal data, otherwise we couldn't write literal data in our code!
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2015-07-01T16:11:06Z pjb: That's where the CL:QUOTE operator enters the scene.
2015-07-01T16:11:28Z pjb: Since it prevents evaluation of its argument, it allows to keep it its status of data.
2015-07-01T16:12:26Z pjb: synergy_: notice that the source code in lisp is not textual data, but lisp objects that are represented by S-expressions.
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2015-07-01T16:12:57Z pjb: In all other programming languages (include scheme unfortunately), the source code is the text.
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2015-07-01T16:13:34Z loz: pjb: including scheme?
2015-07-01T16:13:47Z reb``: loz: yes
2015-07-01T16:13:47Z pjb: Yes, scheme specifies the source as text. check r5rs.
2015-07-01T16:13:57Z loz: are you referring to their #lang?
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2015-07-01T16:14:26Z pjb: synergy_: this note is important, because this is what allows to integrate a macro system, where a lisp function takes some lisp data, and produce some other lisp data, which is then taken as the source code to be compiled in place of the macro "call".
2015-07-01T16:14:27Z contrapunctus: loz: I'm under the impression #lang is a Racket thing, not a Scheme thing.
2015-07-01T16:14:27Z minion: contrapunctus, memo from pjb: you can use a macro to denote tail calls that will hide the transformation into an iteration. Several of them float arround but it will probably be faster to write your own.
2015-07-01T16:14:27Z minion: contrapunctus, memo from pjb: I wouldn't call "programmer" somebody who has difficulty reading a recursive function.
2015-07-01T16:14:44Z shka_: hi
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2015-07-01T16:14:58Z loz: can you give example how this affects scheme?
2015-07-01T16:15:06Z contrapunctus: pjb: cool, thanks! :)
2015-07-01T16:15:20Z shka_: so
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2015-07-01T16:15:26Z pjb: loz: symbols are useless in scheme.
2015-07-01T16:15:43Z shka_: i have a form that calls make-array with fill-pointer = 0 but without adjustable
2015-07-01T16:15:53Z synergy_: So then what does 'a represent?
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2015-07-01T16:16:08Z shka_: when i use this form in repl, it gives me something that i expect to see
2015-07-01T16:16:28Z shka_: however, i want to bind this array to the slot-value in object
2015-07-01T16:17:06Z shka_: and suddenly, this vector seems lost it's fill-pointer (it appears to have maximum size)
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2015-07-01T16:17:19Z shka_: i don't know what it is happening
2015-07-01T16:17:30Z pjb: for example, in scheme, they have identifiers.
2015-07-01T16:17:34Z shka_: any hint?
2015-07-01T16:18:11Z pjb: shka_: something done by your program, not by lisp.
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2015-07-01T16:18:34Z pjb: lisp never copies stuff (apart from numbers and characters passed as arguments).
2015-07-01T16:18:37Z shka_: let me paste
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2015-07-01T16:19:17Z shka_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150927
2015-07-01T16:19:20Z shka_: that's all i do
2015-07-01T16:19:28Z pjb: you can use: array-has-fill-pointer-p
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2015-07-01T16:19:57Z pjb: what does the next method do?
2015-07-01T16:20:19Z shka_: sets another value from base class
2015-07-01T16:20:24Z shka_: this one works
2015-07-01T16:20:53Z synergy_: What resources do you all recommend for learning lisp from scratch?
2015-07-01T16:21:03Z synergy_: Right now I'm reading LLTHW
2015-07-01T16:21:04Z shka_: synergy_: practical common lisp is good
2015-07-01T16:21:07Z oGMo: read a book and write some code?
2015-07-01T16:21:14Z shka_: pjb: this function returns nil
2015-07-01T16:21:35Z shka_: i'm running sbcl
2015-07-01T16:22:44Z oGMo: synergy_: no matter how many books you read, you won't learn much until you dive in and write something for real. follow idioms and practices (e.g. style things), but not dogmatically .. figure out why they're useful. read other code and see how it does things instead of asking. etc.
2015-07-01T16:23:06Z oGMo: pretty much how you learn anything
2015-07-01T16:23:32Z synergy_: I've been experimenting with things in the repl as I read right now
2015-07-01T16:23:47Z synergy_: Then asking questions if I don't understand something
2015-07-01T16:24:28Z oGMo: sure, but once you know enough things to write some real project, do it .. start with a .asd to load your code, make yourself a package, and add all your things
2015-07-01T16:25:11Z pjb: shka_: http://paste.lisp.org/+38GF/1
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2015-07-01T16:27:23Z shka_: let my try exactly the same code
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2015-07-01T16:29:33Z synergy_: pjb: So what's the difference in a list I have as data versus one as code if my elements are numbers?
2015-07-01T16:29:49Z synergy_: Since numbers evaluate to themselves
2015-07-01T16:30:16Z pjb: a list like (1 2 3) when evaluated gives a program-error, since 1 is not the name of an operator.
2015-07-01T16:30:54Z pjb: A list like (+ 1 2 3) when evaluated, evaluates the numbers 1,2 and 3 in that order ,then calls the function fbound to + with the values obtained.
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2015-07-01T16:32:04Z pjb: happily, when you evaluate 1, you get 1.
2015-07-01T16:32:25Z pjb: all the lisp objects are self-evaluating apart from cons cells and symbols.
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2015-07-01T16:32:36Z Shinmera: For those who use log.irc.tymoon.eu: There's been a couple of improvements and fixes.
2015-07-01T16:32:38Z pjb: So you need quote only for lists and for symbols.
2015-07-01T16:34:07Z shka_: pjb: i think i just managed to find bug in sbcl
2015-07-01T16:34:18Z shka_: after restarting inferior lisp it started to work
2015-07-01T16:34:29Z shka_: without changing anything in code
2015-07-01T16:34:51Z pjb: synergy_: however, you cannot put any random lisp object in the source code of a program, because when compiling it, those lisp objects must be serialized to the fasl file, and lisp knows how to do that only for its own types (with a few exceptions). For CLOS classes, you can define a MAKE-LOAD-FORM for your classes.
2015-07-01T16:35:01Z pjb: even quoted.
2015-07-01T16:35:50Z pjb: So instead, you can use load-time-value with an expression, lisp code that be compiled and that will be evaluated when the fasl file is loaded to build the random lisp object you want.
2015-07-01T16:36:07Z synergy_: So generally, the ' operator prevents non self evaluating code from being evaluated?
2015-07-01T16:36:23Z pjb: yes, or data in general.
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2015-07-01T16:37:11Z synergy_: But in the case of something like '2, it just evaluates to 2. Can you go over why that is?
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2015-07-01T16:39:20Z Shinmera: What else do you expect it to be?
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2015-07-01T16:39:56Z pjb: (defun eval (form) (cond ((symbolp form) (get-variable-value form)) ((atom form) form) (t (case (first form) ((quote) (check-arguments 1 1 form) (second form) #| <-- because of that |#) ((if) …) … (otherwise (cond ((macro-function (first form)) (eval (macroexpand form))) (t (funcall (first form) (mapcar 'eval (rest form))))))))
2015-07-01T16:40:22Z pjb: synergy_: there's absolutely nothing to fret about, just read the eval function.
2015-07-01T16:40:48Z pjb: 2 evaluates to 2 because ((atom form) form)
2015-07-01T16:41:00Z pjb: '2 evaluates to 2 because ((quote) (second form))
2015-07-01T16:41:03Z pjb: and so on.
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2015-07-01T16:41:47Z pjb: bbl
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2015-07-01T17:28:35Z shka_: looking for any utility library with vector operations like insert at index
2015-07-01T17:28:37Z shka_: tipS?
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2015-07-01T17:30:57Z williamyao: shka_: https://github.com/Shinmera/array-utils
2015-07-01T17:31:18Z williamyao: vector-push-extend-position looks like what you're looking for
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2015-07-01T17:31:24Z pjb: shka_: com.informatimago.
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2015-07-01T17:31:59Z pjb: shka_: notably: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq
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2015-07-01T17:32:59Z shka_: williamyao: thanks, but i will try what pjb suggests
2015-07-01T17:33:08Z shka_: it's time to adopt some utility libs
2015-07-01T17:33:23Z Shinmera: If you want to let yourself get infected by AGPL, go ahead.
2015-07-01T17:33:32Z shka_: agpl?
2015-07-01T17:33:34Z shka_: ok
2015-07-01T17:33:39Z shka_: i will go with the first one
2015-07-01T17:33:40Z pjb: Let's all use the AGPL3 and be happy!
2015-07-01T17:33:47Z Bike: is "array-utils" not a utility library
2015-07-01T17:34:05Z Shinmera: Bike: It is one in my eyes.
2015-07-01T17:34:26Z Bike: i mean, it has "utils" right there, i'm just sayin.
2015-07-01T17:35:35Z shka_: it would be nice to have lib with basic alghoritmic stuff
2015-07-01T17:35:47Z shka_: like binary search
2015-07-01T17:35:52Z shka_: or make heap
2015-07-01T17:36:06Z Shinmera: There are several, I'm sure.
2015-07-01T17:36:08Z pjb: you mean, like in com.informatimago?
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2015-07-01T17:36:20Z shka_: pjb: i don't know what is inside
2015-07-01T17:36:24Z shka_: but let me check
2015-07-01T17:36:25Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:dichotomy
2015-07-01T17:37:00Z Bike: com informatimago is pjb's library, just so we're all on the same page. there's a directory of all the stuff in it on his site
2015-07-01T17:37:08Z shka_: aaaaaaah
2015-07-01T17:37:16Z shka_: pjb: shameless adverteising!
2015-07-01T17:37:20Z pjb: htpp://gitlab.com/com-informatimago :-)
2015-07-01T17:37:33Z shka_: but that's ok
2015-07-01T17:37:43Z shka_: i just don't want to write everything myself
2015-07-01T17:37:47Z shka_: i don't have tome for that
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2015-07-01T17:38:32Z Bike: i'm still wondering what a cesarum is. sounds latin. maybe something you award to a phalanx.
2015-07-01T17:38:47Z pjb: Cesarum is the name of the library built on the cenders of Alexandria.
2015-07-01T17:39:07Z Bike: lol, that's kind of mean
2015-07-01T17:39:31Z remi`bd: :DD
2015-07-01T17:39:57Z shka_: pjb: so, can i install it with ql?
2015-07-01T17:40:05Z pjb: Yes.
2015-07-01T17:40:17Z pjb: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp)
2015-07-01T17:40:46Z shka_: i'm infected by agpl
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2015-07-01T17:41:05Z pjb: Only if you make a derived work.
2015-07-01T17:41:29Z Bike: as opposed to just admiring it?
2015-07-01T17:41:31Z pjb: And distribute it or make it accessible thru the network.
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2015-07-01T17:41:53Z pjb: Yes, you can admire it all you want, and even use it in your programs, if you don't distribute or give access to them.
2015-07-01T17:42:33Z shka_: pjb: what are the packages in this thing?
2015-07-01T17:42:44Z dlowe: safe in the knowledge that most programs are fairly worthless if not shared
2015-07-01T17:42:46Z shka_: do you have docs?
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2015-07-01T17:43:02Z pjb: There are a lot of packages. In general one per file.
2015-07-01T17:43:38Z pjb: There are docstrings, from which documentation can be extracted. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/
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2015-07-01T17:43:45Z pjb: I didn't update it recently…
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2015-07-01T17:45:41Z shka_: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq
2015-07-01T17:45:54Z shka_: that package name though :P
2015-07-01T17:46:16Z pjb: usually, you (defpackage … (:use :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence)) and use replace-subseq.
2015-07-01T17:47:10Z shka_: yeah
2015-07-01T17:47:48Z shka_: becuase i have no choice
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2015-07-01T17:48:02Z pjb: And soon enough I'll write a CDR for relative package names, with patches for the various implementations, so…
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2015-07-01T17:49:49Z pjb: (replace-subseq '(0) #(1 2 3 4) 2 2) --> #(1 2 0 3 4)
2015-07-01T17:50:04Z pjb: (replace-subseq "hello" #(1 2 3 4) 2 2) --> #(1 2 #\h #\e #\l #\l #\o 3 4)
2015-07-01T17:50:32Z pjb: (replace-subseq "bonjour" "hello world" 0 5) --> "bonjour world"
2015-07-01T17:51:38Z S4xS3: bonjour
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2015-07-01T18:02:11Z emaczen: So I'm stuck on a "faulty" parenscript conversion. I am passing a list of predicate expression to a macro such as ((< x 5) (/= y 8)) and the translated javascript converts the < and /= as strings, whereas lisp can just funcall those symbols... The translated javascript is: [['lessthan' 'x' 5], ['slashequals', 'y', 8]]
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2015-07-01T18:02:46Z emaczen: The idea is to solve this with lisp macros so that I can run the same code in lisp and in the browser.
2015-07-01T18:03:22Z emaczen: jasom: Any ideas? You are the only other person I know who uses parenscript...
2015-07-01T18:03:37Z easye` uses parenscript.
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2015-07-01T18:03:56Z pjb: ((< x 5) (/= y 8)) doesn't look like code.
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2015-07-01T18:04:03Z pjb: Try: (list (< x 5) (/= y 8))
2015-07-01T18:04:37Z Bike: i think the idea is there's some macro foo st (foo ((< x 5) (/+ y 8) ...) ...) is valid?
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2015-07-01T18:04:47Z emaczen: Bike: Correct
2015-07-01T18:05:03Z pjb: check the macro then.
2015-07-01T18:05:29Z emaczen: easye': Any ideas?
2015-07-01T18:05:39Z emaczen: pjb: It works fine in Lisp
2015-07-01T18:05:57Z Bike: i think the problem is that the parenscript transpiler is translating symbol names as data in a different way than as code, and it's not working out great
2015-07-01T18:06:08Z pjb: the javascript macro. IIRC they're distinct from the CL macros.
2015-07-01T18:06:23Z pjb: s/java/paren/
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2015-07-01T18:07:03Z emaczen: Bike: You are correct, it is converting the symbols < and /= to strings and then it tries to use them as functions...
2015-07-01T18:07:17Z brpocock: I've toyed with Paren, but ... what are you hoping to get as the output? Something like function (x,y) {x<5; y != 8;} ??
2015-07-01T18:07:18Z emaczen: In lisp this is fine since those symbols have functions associated with them
2015-07-01T18:08:04Z Bike: any chance you can hack it and do "function lessthan (x,y) { return x < y; }"
2015-07-01T18:08:46Z emaczen: brpocock: I think if I can get the symbols < and /= to be translated to functions just like Bike is saying then it will work but I don't know how to get it to do that...
2015-07-01T18:09:20Z emaczen: Like, a macro named "<" that expanded to function(x, y) { return x < y; }
2015-07-01T18:09:20Z brpocock: You could provide them yourself, in a pinch. :-/
2015-07-01T18:09:42Z emaczen: It doesn't expand to that when I call my macro though :-/
2015-07-01T18:10:02Z emaczen: Let me try making a paste... I think this is more complicated than it looks
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2015-07-01T18:11:39Z brpocock: I'm seeing it like the Lisp gets a list of expr's and evals them, but the JS gets an array of arrays of (fbound-symbol) (params...) and doesn't have a way to eval them?
2015-07-01T18:12:22Z emaczen: brpocock: Yes, the symbols actually end up being strings and then the javascript error is "string is not a function"
2015-07-01T18:12:57Z brpocock: so [ [ 'fn', 'arg0', ... ] , ... ] you'd prefer as like [ function (arg0, ...) { fn(arg0, ...) }, ... ] ,,, except that even still, "<(x, 4)" isn't valid JS?
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2015-07-01T18:14:00Z brpocock: So probably something like ( mapcar #'paren:eval-to-js-* list-of-function ) is needed (but I don't know the name of that bit) ?
2015-07-01T18:14:44Z emaczen: brpocock: Yes, I think It wouldn't be too hard once it evaluate to <(x, 4)
2015-07-01T18:15:16Z brpocock: :-/ and that would yield at best function () { return x < 4; } ... assuming that x is lexically bound at the time the function "function" is called, it'll be closed over then.
2015-07-01T18:15:38Z Bike: i think without actually seeing some code i can't do much more than speculate wildly
2015-07-01T18:15:52Z emaczen: Bike: Agreed, I'll finish the paste.
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2015-07-01T18:23:15Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+38GN -- let me know if you need any clarifications.
2015-07-01T18:23:25Z emaczen: I tried to make everything as clear as possible
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2015-07-01T18:30:07Z brpocock: At first blush, I'd say, JS has no analogue to "funcall" since there are no first-order symbols, so you would need to either implement something to emulate it, or compile the predicate-list in Lisp on its way out :-/
2015-07-01T18:31:28Z emaczen: brpocock: (funcall fn x y) seems to translate to fn(x, y) in parenscript
2015-07-01T18:31:31Z brpocock: I'm assuming that the "where" expressions are being created at run-time from user input, though, so that means more like writing a "funcall" interpreter that understands the strings that the symbols are translated into :-( ;;; disclaimer: barely have used Parenscript at all
2015-07-01T18:32:01Z brpocock: But (I may be wrong) that is only in the case where "fn" is a constant?
2015-07-01T18:32:33Z Baggers: brpocock: Out of curiosity how well do js symbols (https://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Symbol) relate to our cl ones?
2015-07-01T18:33:19Z brpocock: That's ES6, I haven't "seen it used" yet, but I think it's roughly the same concept as keywords, roughly.
2015-07-01T18:33:37Z brpocock: Or uninterned symbols, more like.
2015-07-01T18:33:57Z Baggers: brpocock: interesting, thanks
2015-07-01T18:34:14Z brpocock: ie Symbol("x") ≠ Symbol("x") (which I didn't know until reading that)
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2015-07-01T18:35:15Z Baggers: oh..yeah I didnt see that either
2015-07-01T18:35:25Z brpocock: but Symbol.for("x") = Symbol.for("x"), like a keyword; that's what I was thinking-of.
2015-07-01T18:35:30Z emaczen: I wish Lisp was the language in the browsers....
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2015-07-01T18:35:58Z brpocock: I say Kw because they can't be (afaik) coërced into fns or vars
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2015-07-01T18:36:52Z emaczen: Is it reasonable to file this as an issue for the parenscript project?
2015-07-01T18:36:57Z emaczen: or "bug"
2015-07-01T18:37:19Z Xach: emaczen: If it were me, I'd start a discussion on the parenscript list first.
2015-07-01T18:37:32Z Xach: It's possible that you may find expertise there that is missing from #lisp
2015-07-01T18:38:03Z emaczen: Xach: Cool, I'll try that, and thanks for the input (I haven't used too many mailing lists yet)
2015-07-01T18:38:09Z emaczen: So I don't always think of it.
2015-07-01T18:39:05Z emaczen: brpocock: Thanks for the effort, I bet hacking at funcall in Parenscript is the correct solution.
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2015-07-01T18:45:44Z Oladon: Sigh. There are never any Lisp jobs on HN's "Who's Hiring"
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2015-07-01T18:47:41Z shka_: Oladon: yup
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2015-07-01T18:49:38Z pjb: instead check https://lispjobs.wordpress.com/
2015-07-01T18:49:49Z Oladon: Aye, I keep up with that one, but there are rarely posts there either.
2015-07-01T18:50:03Z pjb: Also, http://ravenpack.es has a permanent CL job offer.
2015-07-01T18:50:23Z pjb: http://www.ravenpack.com/company/careers/
2015-07-01T18:50:41Z Oladon: Yeah, not moving to Spain.
2015-07-01T18:50:50Z pjb: Marbella is a nice place.
2015-07-01T18:50:57Z Oladon: No doubt.
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2015-07-01T19:24:53Z synergy_: When is dynamic scope useful
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2015-07-01T19:31:49Z drmeister: Did people see the Hacker News story on John Carmack developing a VR scripting language in Scheme? He wants C++ integration with a Lisp. I just injected a suggestion to look into Clasp. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9810342
2015-07-01T19:32:10Z drmeister: There, I posted this to a discussion on Racket: I've implemented a Common Lisp that interoperates with C++ and uses LLVM as the backend because I was motivated by the same shortcomings in traditional software development languages and tools (https://github.com/drmeister/clasp). I choose Common Lisp rather than Scheme because the killer feature of Lisp is
2015-07-01T19:32:10Z drmeister: Macros and they are easier to use in Common Lisp than they are in Scheme. Also, Slime (Emacs interface to Common Lisp) is one of the most powerful software development environments available IMHO.
2015-07-01T19:32:14Z Bike: he talks about scheme on twitter sometimes.
2015-07-01T19:32:19Z drmeister: I may have kicked a hornet's nest.
2015-07-01T19:32:30Z drmeister: Bike: Yeah, I've been reading his posts about it for years.
2015-07-01T19:32:37Z pjb: They're transfuge, they used to do it with CL.
2015-07-01T19:33:15Z Bike: Transfuge?
2015-07-01T19:33:38Z pjb: treators if you will.
2015-07-01T19:33:58Z Bike: oh. who, oculus?
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2015-07-01T19:49:54Z brpocock: +1 drmeister, I hope to be switching ecl→clasp whenever we have some ‘safe down time’ to refactor our C++ binding code as well.
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2015-07-01T19:59:34Z Fare: how's clasp doing these days?
2015-07-01T19:59:42Z Fare: I finally watched the boston talk video... GREAT!
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2015-07-01T20:19:06Z jackdaniel: brpocock: :(
2015-07-01T20:21:18Z Fare: jackdaniel, how actively are you working on ECL?
2015-07-01T20:21:38Z jackdaniel: well, last two weeks were pretty fruitful
2015-07-01T20:21:40Z Fare: interested in fixing the linking bug that prevents using bundle-op ?
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2015-07-01T20:22:33Z jackdaniel: obviously, however can't fix a few things at the same time, so have to prioritize them - like openbsd threads bug
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2015-07-01T20:23:05Z jackdaniel: but I want to look into it next week (have to actually work on my company, which is in its infancy :p)
2015-07-01T20:23:12Z jackdaniel: a well that is
2015-07-01T20:23:15Z jackdaniel: s/a/as/
2015-07-01T20:23:58Z jackdaniel: anyways, I'd say pretty actively
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2015-07-01T20:26:28Z frankS2: Anyone know of a good apache kafka library for SBCL?
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2015-07-01T20:27:48Z jackdaniel: in the meantime gn all \o
2015-07-01T20:28:37Z Baggers: jackdaniel: goodnight
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2015-07-01T20:35:14Z synergy_: So I've read in one place that earmuffs notation is used for dynamically scoped variables and from another place that it's used for global variables? Is a global var dynamically scoped?
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2015-07-01T20:36:16Z williamyao: defparameter and defvar create dynamic variables, yes.
2015-07-01T20:36:30Z williamyao: clhs defparameter
2015-07-01T20:36:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
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2015-07-01T20:54:46Z drmeister: What's a good reference (Naggum?) for why CL is better for macros than Scheme?
2015-07-01T20:55:23Z drmeister: Something more accessible than Let Over Lambda
2015-07-01T20:56:32Z Shinmera: Are you looking for Naggum's namespaces/hygiene article or something else?
2015-07-01T20:56:44Z nyef: You are in dangerous waters, my friend.
2015-07-01T20:57:22Z drmeister: The Naggum post on hygiene was great.
2015-07-01T20:57:36Z Shinmera: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3236789642671151@naggum.net.html
2015-07-01T20:59:27Z Bike: this is, uh. naggum sure was psychologistic at times
2015-07-01T21:00:21Z Bike: also not about macros, but i guess shinmera said that
2015-07-01T21:00:36Z Shinmera: It's tangentially about macros.
2015-07-01T21:00:43Z nyef: The root argument may be viable, but the presentation is fairly inflammatory.
2015-07-01T21:00:52Z Bike: classic naggum
2015-07-01T21:01:57Z Bike: well, personally, i like lisp macros cos it's just a function. it takes a form that's probably a cons and returns another form that's probably a cons. scheme does the same basic thing, i think, but the whole pattern matching business means another layer to keep track of mentally
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2015-07-01T21:13:15Z brpocock: jackdaniel: ECL working all right for us, but we're using it embedded in a large third-party C++ environment (UnrealEngine) and bindings are kinda a huge pain :-(
2015-07-01T21:14:03Z Shinmera: brpocock: I'm sure drmeister (as well as many others) would be more than overjoyed to see Clasp interacting with Unreal.
2015-07-01T21:14:24Z brpocock: jackdaniel: planning to contrast clasp with its shiny LLVM integration — since the C++ thing's all LLVM anyway — and see if it'll reduce the work a bit.
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2015-07-01T21:15:05Z brpocock: It'll be as open-source a binding as possible; ie, we plan to share it, within the confines of the Unreal license.
2015-07-01T21:15:34Z brpocock: https://www.unrealengine.com/eula § d.
2015-07-01T21:15:52Z synergy_: Is there a big enough difference between slimv and slime to pick slime and emacs?
2015-07-01T21:16:06Z Shinmera: From what I've heard, yes.
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2015-07-01T21:16:57Z brpocock: So it's basically BSD/MIT-type licensing, but we'll have to confirm somehow that you're an Unreal licensee (which is kinda an open question that we may eventually need to escalate with Epic, at some point)
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2015-07-01T21:17:48Z whiteline: brpocock: sounds nice, you're an indie dev team?
2015-07-01T21:18:45Z brpocock: Our big restriction was that we target ARM (Ouya) and that pretty much had/has ruled-out Clasp (still true;?)
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2015-07-01T21:20:42Z brpocock: Yeah, side job, we're developing a “little” single-player game as a sort of stepping-stone to being a new front-end for my WIP Lisp rewrite of our MMORPG engine. (The current, ActionScript/Flash front-end was owned by another co. I used to work for, who finally finished going out of business last fall.)
2015-07-01T21:20:55Z williamyao: synergy_: I've used both, and from what I can tell, no. You've got pretty much all the things you'd want to use in both; evaluating and compiling from within a source file and by region, expression, toplevel form etc; stepping through stack frames and examining variables in the debugger; macroexpansion; symbol completion; and function description/hyperspec lookup. I found slimv a little clunkier and the facilities for moving around
2015-07-01T21:20:56Z williamyao: within s-expressions wasn't as nice, but they're about equal in features.
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2015-07-01T21:24:12Z synergy_: Alright, thanks
2015-07-01T21:24:43Z synergy_: I can tell that this is a partly opinion based topic
2015-07-01T21:24:56Z synergy_: But I'm not doing anything intricate yet so I think slimv will be fine
2015-07-01T21:26:06Z synergy_: Heh, at this point I really wouldn't able to know if one was better than the other since I don't know about the features I would need or whatever else
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2015-07-01T21:26:58Z williamyao: comma-c, comma-d, and comma-a are all you really need anyways :D
2015-07-01T21:27:45Z Bike: wait, does clasp even have anything arch specific? i thought the compiler just put out llvm-ir and used mps for memory
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2015-07-01T21:29:32Z drmeister: I didn't put any architecture specific stuff in there other that 64-bit words.
2015-07-01T21:31:47Z Bike: uh, well, that rules out ouya's processor then.
2015-07-01T21:32:05Z drmeister: I'm purposefully keeping 32-bit option alive. Nanobots will be 32-bit before 64-bit.
2015-07-01T21:32:46Z brpocock: +1, sorry, yeah. Not all-ARM, but my-ARM is a problem. Although I'd love to have time to explore it.
2015-07-01T21:33:24Z Bike: on the bright side you've halted the ouya grey goo apocalypse... for now
2015-07-01T21:34:25Z drmeister: Grey goo no. A bright future for all yes.
2015-07-01T21:35:13Z Bike: i suppose i should update my jokey fearmongering, you've probably heard grey goo enough that it's just irritating
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2015-07-01T21:36:10Z drmeister: Grey goo is silly and darn near impossible. Choking on our own trash is far more likely unless I have something to do with it.
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2015-07-01T22:10:37Z cluck: drmeister: grey goo can be absolutely real, we call them bacteria and fungi and algae, fortunately they usually lack intent and coordination
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2015-07-01T22:11:39Z Bike: meister got a feynman award in nanotech, none of us really need to tell him about it (and i don't need to make tired jokes)
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2015-07-01T22:13:28Z cluck: drmeister: flesh eating bacteria is totally a thing we worry about creating in hospitals (tl;dr has happened, fortunately quickly contained) and that's by accident (evolution), i dread imagine what a similar _designed_ machine would be capable of
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2015-07-01T22:14:31Z Baggers: dreading to imagine things doesnt seem pay off well in the long run
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2015-07-01T22:17:43Z Baggers decides he should stick his nose in the debate and scuttles away
2015-07-01T22:17:49Z Baggers: shouldn't
2015-07-01T22:17:52Z Baggers: damnnit
2015-07-01T22:18:18Z cluck: Bike: i realize that, and in day-to-day i agree with his standing because most professionals capable of doing it won't. but accidents and malice exist and so we should keep such lessons and warnings in the back of our minds, lest we repeat what happened in the '60s, which set back nanotechnology research by at least 20 years
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2015-07-01T22:21:32Z oGMo: LSD? i'm not sure that was a setback..
2015-07-01T22:21:43Z oGMo: and this is all horribly off-topic ;)
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2015-07-01T22:32:19Z aeth: Hmm... Isn't every place where there's a common compatability library basically a place where a new CL standard could help? So e.g. filesystem, MOP, unicode, etc.
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2015-07-01T22:39:03Z brpocock: perhaps.
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2015-07-01T22:39:41Z brpocock: I'd prefer on the filesystem front that the OS catch up to the spec (versioning and remote hosts, particularly)
2015-07-01T22:43:20Z nyef: brpocock: Well, remote hosts is available on WinAPI, IIRC, and versioning on VMS...
2015-07-01T22:43:58Z brpocock: yeah, and gvfs on Linux does a nice job, if someone were to monkey-patch it into the compiler, and all.
2015-07-01T22:45:09Z resttime: can one import a function from another package, but have it renamed?
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2015-07-01T22:46:09Z brpocock: Even if ANSI never got fired up about it, I'd guess that “we, the users” could probably establish some meta-standard around the top 5 most-downloaded packages on Quicklisp and the top 10 others whose names begin “trivial-*” and call it the "CL-2015 standard library expansion pack” or some more clever acronym and be rather happy about it.
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2015-07-01T22:47:41Z resttime: i guess another question is if a function can have a nickname like a package
2015-07-01T22:47:52Z brpocock: “I have a new Lisp compiler” → “does it comply with ANSI and SLEP-2015?”
2015-07-01T22:48:07Z brpocock: resttime: you can bind the same symbol to another function, yes —
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2015-07-01T22:49:43Z aeth: brpocock: you don't need an ANSI standard, you probably just need a Github-hosted document that the major FOSS implementations agree to
2015-07-01T22:49:45Z brpocock: (setf (symbol-function my-foo) (symbol-function other::foo))
2015-07-01T22:50:08Z aeth: brpocock: then anyone who wants to make a new CL can basically just go off of that
2015-07-01T22:50:10Z brpocock: The commercial vendors would probably be happy to sign on such a thing, as well.
2015-07-01T22:50:25Z aeth: probably. Especially if Quicklisp libraries are written to it
2015-07-01T22:50:29Z brpocock: I get the gist that Lw, Franz, and Clozure are all pretty amenable.
2015-07-01T22:50:37Z brpocock: (amenable to portability)
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2015-07-01T22:51:24Z brpocock: resttime: my bad, quote those symbols for what you probably want
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2015-07-01T22:51:43Z brpocock: (setf (symbol-function 'my-foo) (symbol-function 'other::foo))
2015-07-01T22:51:50Z resttime: brpocock, np thanks for the info
2015-07-01T22:53:19Z brpocock: you may need/want that inside (eval-when …) as well, if you're doing some namespace laundering
2015-07-01T22:53:53Z aeth: brpocock: Actually, didn't someone try that already? A reimagined CL standard-like thing or something. I think I remember reading about it a while ago, perhaps on HN. Maybe it was too ambitious in its changes.
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2015-07-01T22:54:25Z resttime: aeth, http://cl21.org/ ?
2015-07-01T22:54:47Z aeth: yes, I think. Unless there's more than one
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2015-07-01T22:55:22Z brpocock: aeth: it's actually a pretty good idea, maybe some of the celebs like Xach and Faré could pitch it 'round.
2015-07-01T22:55:46Z brpocock: Isn't "CL21" meant as "just" an aesthetic lib? Perhaps I misunderstood
2015-07-01T22:56:24Z aeth: maybe that's the wrong one
2015-07-01T22:58:05Z aeth: brpocock: cl21 does have a few things that we were talking about. "Include MOP." "Syntax for regular expression."
2015-07-01T22:59:18Z brpocock: I think it's a syntactic lib, but its prerequisites (‘Quicklisp’ can be thought of as a rather severely large prerequisite set!) kinda make up the ‘expanded common library’ set that I was thinking-uf.
2015-07-01T22:59:49Z Baggers: brpocock: cl21 also says it want's to make things 'More object oriented' which is not something I would want to hear in any updated standard
2015-07-01T23:00:18Z aeth: https://github.com/cl21/cl21/blob/master/cl21.asd
2015-07-01T23:00:33Z aeth: brpocock: yeah definitely, it's just more syntax on top of a lot of the libraries you were thinking of
2015-07-01T23:01:13Z aeth: assuming you're working off of this: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/06/may-2015-download-stats.html
2015-07-01T23:01:27Z brpocock: I had a vague notion more like, perhaps (:use :cl :slep2015) ⇒ get all of ANSI and (alexandria trivial-features cl-ppcre babel closer-mop cl-fad bordeaux-threads flexi-streams trivial-gray-streams local-time) or so
2015-07-01T23:01:44Z brpocock: yeah, I actually had 2/2015 open in a tab, by coïncidence.
2015-07-01T23:01:46Z aeth: right
2015-07-01T23:02:20Z brpocock: plus asdf, uiop
2015-07-01T23:02:38Z aeth: There's a few other things that would be interesting to try to push. More functional programming stuff (*very* in-style right now) would be one.
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2015-07-01T23:02:42Z brpocock: I'd add split-sequence, maybe iterate (I don't use it, but …)
2015-07-01T23:03:06Z brpocock: and usocket
2015-07-01T23:03:37Z brpocock: and something like trivial-backtrace to actually get stack frame info cross-platform would be a treat.
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2015-07-01T23:04:30Z aeth: Another thing I'd like to see is something to compete with XML and JSON, but using s-expressions. Maybe I'm alone here.
2015-07-01T23:04:36Z brpocock nominates aeth to write up a standards document in LaTeX and shopping compiler vendors?
2015-07-01T23:04:45Z brpocock: Um. Like CL:READ ?
2015-07-01T23:04:54Z aeth: But what would be cool is basically a safe READ that will only read lists (including alists/plists), vectors, etc.
2015-07-01T23:04:57Z resttime: aeth, https://github.com/conspack/cl-conspack ?
2015-07-01T23:05:15Z brpocock: (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (read)) ?
2015-07-01T23:05:24Z aeth: resttime: possibly
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2015-07-01T23:05:49Z aeth: resttime: I will have to read how it works
2015-07-01T23:05:57Z brpocock: oh crap, g2g
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2015-07-01T23:06:57Z aeth: brpocock: Well, what I mean is a subset of read so that it's *just* the data structures.
2015-07-01T23:07:12Z aeth: I mean, obviously people can and probably have wrote such libraries, but it won't be as fast as if it is built in.
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2015-07-01T23:16:20Z Fare: aeth: what do you expect to do with a standard, and where is the force that will make people comply to it?
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2015-07-01T23:23:36Z Fare: brpocock: and BTW, cl-fad is superseded by uiop, that is more portable.
2015-07-01T23:24:02Z Fare: and has a slightly better API, IMNSHO.
2015-07-01T23:25:28Z Fare: finally, it's trivial for you to write a system that does (uiop:define-package :slep2015 :use-reexport (alexandria trivial-features cl-ppcre babel closer-mop cl-fad bordeaux-threads flexi-streams trivial-gray-streams local-time))
2015-07-01T23:25:57Z Fare: well, assuming no symbol conflict. Then you'd have to :mix-reexport and/or :shadowing-import-from.
2015-07-01T23:26:55Z Fare: but the real point is, your standard has no tooth by itself unless there is a will for implementers to comply.
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2015-07-01T23:27:27Z Fare: if what you want is readily implementable as a library, then the standard is useless
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2015-07-01T23:27:43Z pillton: Good morning!
2015-07-01T23:28:16Z Fare: if what you want isn't, then it has a cost to the implementers, and won't be implemented by any implementation unless you do it yourself, and even then, get maintainers to approve that.
2015-07-01T23:29:11Z nyef: And for it to be adopted by a majority of implementations, the cost of implementation must outweigh the cost of non-implementation, which means that you need users for your new standard.
2015-07-01T23:29:35Z Fare: and for there to be users, you need an implementation... catch-22
2015-07-01T23:29:55Z Fare: unless your feature is so cool that it causes people to jump implementation ship.
2015-07-01T23:30:09Z whiteline: whiteline
2015-07-01T23:30:25Z Fare: at which point you implement it once, and others grudgingly comply or die.
2015-07-01T23:31:19Z Fare: nyef: did you ever document the work required to fix sbcl signal handling so it's user-modifiable, already?
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2015-07-01T23:45:27Z aeth: Fare: You're right. So the best strategy would be to fork sbcl or something similar
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2015-07-01T23:47:38Z Fare: aeth: best strategy for WHAT?
2015-07-01T23:47:42Z Fare: what's the end point?
2015-07-01T23:47:48Z Fare: or the direction?
2015-07-01T23:48:03Z Fare: the constraints?
2015-07-01T23:48:08Z Fare: the vision?
2015-07-01T23:48:10Z Fare: the goal?
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2015-07-02T00:00:39Z Fare: if what you want is a better lisp, then (1) writing down the vision, (2) relentlessly working towards it, (3) adopting the best ideas and practices of existing experts on the domains on which you're not pushing the envelope is a better strategy than gathering a committee for yet another standard.
2015-07-02T00:02:05Z Fare: what do you want to add to sbcl that requires a fork?
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2015-07-02T00:06:24Z deadmund: I am looking at this simple guess the number example: http://landoflisp.com/guess.lisp but when I run it on the command line (clisp example.cl) nothing happens? I tried calling these functions ( e.g. at the end putting (start-over) ) but it doesn't work? Am I doing something wrong??
2015-07-02T00:06:42Z nyef: Fare: Interrupt-handling? No, I don't believe I ever did.
2015-07-02T00:06:42Z deadmund: Please be gentle, I'm a newbie!!
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2015-07-02T00:07:54Z nyef: deadmund: Have you tried following the instructions that go with that example?
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2015-07-02T00:08:20Z deadmund: nyef: I don't see any instructions. What are you taking about? http://landoflisp.com/source.html
2015-07-02T00:09:18Z nyef: deadmund: The instructions that are, presumably, in the book.
2015-07-02T00:09:59Z deadmund: I don't have the book. Just searching for some simple list program online. Do you know why I'm not seeing anything when I run this code? Is it incomplete?
2015-07-02T00:10:08Z deadmund: seems it's complete to me but I know very little lisp!
2015-07-02T00:10:25Z deadmund: There is guess-my-number which takes the average of big and small
2015-07-02T00:10:44Z deadmund: and there is smaller and bigger which seem to be something to do with if the user guessed too high or too low....
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2015-07-02T00:12:02Z hitecnologys: The CLHS states UNWIND-PROTECT always executes cleanup forms no matter what happens. Is it true in real world at least for major implementations or there are nuances, as usual?
2015-07-02T00:12:03Z nyef: ... and the explanation would be in the book, which I don't have and have never read.
2015-07-02T00:12:31Z nyef: hitecnologys: The nuances involve thread cancellation, bugs, and errors that occur during the cleanup forms.
2015-07-02T00:13:06Z hitecnologys: nyef: so, I don't accidentally kill thread from outside, implementation devs don't screw up and I don't mess the cleanup forms, I'm good?
2015-07-02T00:13:35Z hitecnologys: s/I don't accidentally/if I don't accidentally/
2015-07-02T00:13:59Z aeth: Fare: You said a new standard would require its own implementation, right?
2015-07-02T00:14:27Z hitecnologys: nyef: well, that sounds comforting, thanks.
2015-07-02T00:14:29Z nyef: hitecnologys: Oh, and asynchronous interrupt delivery. That can also cause issues.
2015-07-02T00:15:08Z hitecnologys: nyef: can that be avoided by using SB-EXT:WITHOUT-INTERRUPS or similar functionality of other implementations?
2015-07-02T00:15:17Z hitecnologys: INTERRUPTS*
2015-07-02T00:15:31Z Fare: aeth: doesn't have to be a fork, unless the standard is substantially incompatible, at which point you're not going to get much traction in the community, and might as well start from code that's closer to what you want.
2015-07-02T00:16:44Z deadmund: nyef: It's incomplete. Thanks for nothing!! :)
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2015-07-02T00:17:12Z Fare: aeth: once again, what are you trying to do? first find out, then the means will follow.
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2015-07-02T00:17:34Z jason_m: deadmund: the game works
2015-07-02T00:17:47Z Fare: if you want minor modifications to CL, pick one implementation, modify it, and see if it works foryou
2015-07-02T00:18:01Z jason_m: deadmund: after you load the code into clisp, pick a nimber in your head, and evaluate (guess-my-number)
2015-07-02T00:18:29Z jason_m: deadmund: and then evaluate (smaller) or (bigger) to direct the program to the correct answer
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2015-07-02T00:18:46Z Fare: if you want radical improvements, such as continuations, or linear types, or a hygienic module system, etc. then CL might not be the best starting point.
2015-07-02T00:19:36Z nyef: jason_m: s/he is gone.
2015-07-02T00:19:38Z axion: jason_m: he won't see anything after he leaves unless he views a channel log
2015-07-02T00:20:32Z jason_m: nyef, ah thanks
2015-07-02T00:20:40Z Fare: if "all you want" is better packaging of "batteries included", then hacking quicklisp might be a better starting point.
2015-07-02T00:20:46Z jason_m: they were missing a -repl on the clisp command line
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2015-07-02T00:27:50Z Zhivago: hitech: It probably doesn't do so if the machine explodes in a huge ball of fire, first.
2015-07-02T00:28:16Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: well, I'm mostly concerned about factors I can control.
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2015-07-02T00:28:34Z Zhivago: Well, if you can control them ... then you can ... control them. :)
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2015-07-02T00:29:25Z hitecnologys: It's not like I can just tell cosmic rays to stop shining or prevent users from unplugging their machines from power grid.
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2015-07-02T00:30:55Z nyef: You want factors outside your control? At one point SBCL had a bug on non-x86 platforms where a GC occurring while handling an asynchronous signal had a good chance at corrupting the signal context.
2015-07-02T00:31:51Z Zhivago: hitech: Probably the real question should be 'how reliable do I need a given process to be?'
2015-07-02T00:32:35Z Zhivago: If it needs to be very reliable, then an external and/or remote watchdog is probably what you want.
2015-07-02T00:32:45Z hitecnologys: Well, mostly I just want to make sure it's as reliable as I can make it without going too insane.
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2015-07-02T00:33:19Z hitecnologys: I can afford it to miss once in a while, but if it's going to do it regularly, then I'm in trouble.
2015-07-02T00:33:21Z Zhivago: Well, it's certainly intended to be reliablish.
2015-07-02T00:33:40Z Zhivago: I'd expect it to be approximately as reliable as any of the other non-local transfer mechanisms.
2015-07-02T00:35:11Z Fare wonders if monolithic-concatenate-source-op can be a valid delivery mechanism for bootstrapping a "rich" variant of quicklisp.
2015-07-02T00:35:26Z Fare: one that would include, e.g. https support.
2015-07-02T00:35:53Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: actually, since it only cleans up thread context and resets it's state, I doesn't actually matter that much whether is got reset or not. I can verify whether thread is running or stopped anyway in any point in time, it would just add extra overhead to do so periodically rather than when thread quits. I've already got scheduler that monitors worker threads state so in case it fails to stop correctly, it
2015-07-02T00:35:55Z hitecnologys: won't last more than ~10ms.
2015-07-02T00:36:03Z Fare: of course, ironclad uses wrappers around compile and load, and isn't amenable to that without modification.
2015-07-02T00:36:31Z Zhivago: hitech: Well, then it sounds like you'll be fine.
2015-07-02T00:36:45Z Fare: another option would be the lisp equivalent of a .shar
2015-07-02T00:36:53Z hitecnologys: Zhivago, nyef: OK, thanks for help. Back to coding now.
2015-07-02T00:37:19Z Zhivago: hitech: Instead of doing a periodic clean, I'd suggest that you clean one when starting a new thread.
2015-07-02T00:37:49Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: it does that too.
2015-07-02T00:38:00Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: that's what I actually meant by periodic clean.
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2015-07-02T00:38:43Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: threads get restarted anyway, so there's no need to duplicate things.
2015-07-02T00:40:18Z Fare: btw, does anyone use POIU? The main issue I see with it is that it forks therefore doesn't like threads therefore won't run under SLIME.
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2015-07-02T00:41:47Z Fare: but if it could be made to run in a subprocess, then it could fork at will.
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2015-07-02T00:42:12Z Fare: though at that point we might as well have an asdf4 thingie.
2015-07-02T00:42:19Z Fare: or xcvb.
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2015-07-02T01:23:06Z phf: i want to take a vector and pretend it's a stream of unsinged-byte 8 in a portal way. what's the package i should use? ccl comes with with-input-from-vector, but otherwise it seems every package that needs that functionality has its own (e.g. ironclad's make-octet-input-stream)
2015-07-02T01:23:41Z phf: (i'm also ok if it's fast and non-portabl sbcl only version)
2015-07-02T01:24:15Z nyef: phf: ISTR there's something like that in flexi-streams as well.
2015-07-02T01:24:52Z nyef: Otherwise, it's a fairly straightforward application of the Gray streams protocol to implement your own.
2015-07-02T01:25:45Z phf: it might be a good exercise to learn gray streams protocol (*sometime later* look another vector octet stream implementation!)
2015-07-02T01:26:45Z Xach: flexi-streams does it
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2015-07-02T01:28:59Z phf: i also found fast-io and trivial-octet-streams
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2015-07-02T01:30:30Z eli: pjb`: Oculus haven't existed enough time to be using anything "for years".
2015-07-02T01:31:06Z eli: You're probably senile-ly confusing them with Naughty Dog, who used a *Lisp* for years, and they still are using a Lisp, only a different one. (They never used the common one, AFAICR.)
2015-07-02T01:31:41Z kristof: If you've ever read GOOL, or whatever it is called, it looks more like Fortran than it does lisp
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2015-07-02T01:32:53Z eli: Yeah, that, but they had a bunch of variants of it too, to varying degrees of lispiness (but probably none were too close to idiomatic code)
2015-07-02T01:33:19Z kristof: I didn't know that. I just know that all the examples I've seen have been objectively gross.
2015-07-02T01:34:04Z eli: IIRC, what they do now is pretty different -- more like descriptions that get compiled to code, so probably much less imperative-looking.
2015-07-02T01:34:10Z kristof: As if Backus himself had designed the language
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2015-07-02T01:34:39Z Xach: Objectively.
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2015-07-02T01:37:57Z kristof: It was tongue in cheek :P
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2015-07-02T02:13:19Z akkad: how would you track the updates to multiple files in lisp, e.g. tail -f /var/log/hosts/login.cron|grep "login accepted"|curl some url.
2015-07-02T02:14:21Z hitecnologys: So, I finished initial sketch of that hive-task thing I started writing some time ago. I decided to let go that preemptive multitasking idea because it's hard to maintain and implement and it adds lots of overhead as well. It seems to work fine now, though it's still alpha quality and there are many more things I would like to do before actually using in elsewhere. Anyway, I put what I have on the GH so
2015-07-02T02:14:23Z hitecnologys: constructive critics is welcome: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/hive-task.
2015-07-02T02:14:35Z hitecnologys: Ah, I hate it when I miss characters limit.
2015-07-02T02:14:50Z pillton: akkad: I periodically open the files and start reading from where I stopped last time.
2015-07-02T02:14:57Z Xach: Anyone happen to have some CL code to compute the duration in seconds of an MP3 file?
2015-07-02T02:15:37Z hitecnologys: Xach: I presume you're not OK with using external utilities?
2015-07-02T02:15:57Z hitecnologys: Xach: I may have a code that relies on ffmpeg.
2015-07-02T02:16:00Z Xach: hitecnologys: I am somewhat ok. I have not found such a utility yet.
2015-07-02T02:16:10Z hitecnologys: Xach: let me take a look then.
2015-07-02T02:16:14Z pillton: Xach: Doesn't PCL have a section on extracting that information?
2015-07-02T02:16:43Z Xach: pillton: i believe it's for extracting id3 info
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2015-07-02T02:17:03Z Xach: pillton: i'm looking for audio info
2015-07-02T02:17:35Z Xach: I am able to inspect each frame and get lots of data, but I am either not getting the proper data or analyzing it wrong
2015-07-02T02:17:36Z pillton: Xach: Sorry. I thought that the information you wanted would be in there.
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2015-07-02T02:18:01Z Xach: pillton: it might be, but i'm actually working with mp3 files that have no id3 info
2015-07-02T02:19:09Z hitecnologys: Xach: nope, seems like it's gone. I used to write something like that a year or so ago for splitting tracks according to CUE sheet.
2015-07-02T02:20:04Z hitecnologys: I probably threw it out after solving the problem I needed custom solution for.
2015-07-02T02:20:56Z Xach: I think I may have some code from the mp3info utility I can adapt.
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2015-07-02T02:34:21Z redline6561: Xach: ... I bet there's something like that inside ahefner's shuffletron/mixalot. Granted it has some C lib dependencies
2015-07-02T02:34:21Z minion: redline6561, memo from PuercoPop: I've pushed some work to the cli-commands branch of coleslaw. It uses buildapp to generate a binary with 4 commands build/clean/rebuild/serve. It has some rough edges, with error reporting and getting the Makefile to be ccl friendly (I have to take a look at pgloader's Makefile in more detail). I'll comment on the PR with more detail. Give it a try if you can over the weekend and let me
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2015-07-02T03:08:13Z emaczen`: Will SBCL or CCL with SLIME give you the the line of the file that is causing the error when you get a backtrace?
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2015-07-02T03:14:40Z nyef: emaczen`: Only if the relevant form is actually IN the backtrace. If the cause is elsewhere (typically between the keyboard and the chair) then it can't really direct the editor to the right place.
2015-07-02T03:15:33Z emaczen`: nyef: I don't follow? Why do other languages/environments do this then?
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2015-07-02T03:16:49Z nyef: If the cause of the error is that someone fat-fingered a configuration file, thus screwing up something that won't happen until five minutes later, how would the editor be able to get to the configuration file from the backtrace?
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2015-07-02T03:17:57Z Bike: well, the function actually signalling might be something you don't care about. (mapcar 4 5) => mapcar signals an error, not whatever's calling mapcar
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2015-07-02T03:18:13Z nyef: Now, if you're asking about the most proximate form to DETECTING the error, that's another matter, and then yes, it should work Just Fine.
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2015-07-02T03:19:48Z emaczen`: I'm not really sure what it is, but it just feels like the backtraces I get aren't as helpful as I have used elsewhere
2015-07-02T03:21:00Z nyef: That may be the case. And you may find that adjusting your DEBUG optimize quality helps.
2015-07-02T03:21:47Z emaczen`: nyef: Here is an example that I finally just solved
2015-07-02T03:21:59Z emaczen`: I have a macro called define-class
2015-07-02T03:22:11Z emaczen`: I accidentally typed defipne-class
2015-07-02T03:22:37Z emaczen`: I'm using ps:defmacro+ps so emacs doesn't syntax highlight it the define so I don't see it for awhile
2015-07-02T03:22:40Z OxMLR: Are there any games that are built with lisp that are in active development?
2015-07-02T03:23:03Z emaczen`: The only backtrack error message I would get was "serious errors"
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2015-07-02T03:23:48Z emaczen`: I want to say in other environments, it would show me that mispelling of define-class by telling me that definpe-class is undefined and taking me to that line of code
2015-07-02T03:24:03Z nyef: That sounds like poor error scenario design with "ps", whatever that is.
2015-07-02T03:24:16Z emaczen`: It's parenscript
2015-07-02T03:24:24Z emaczen`: nyef: Could be...
2015-07-02T03:24:35Z emaczen`: I was also wondering if I just didn't know how to use SLIME that well
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2015-07-02T03:38:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-07-02T03:38:50Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-07-02T03:40:27Z OxMLR: Hello
2015-07-02T03:41:46Z Fare: good morning!
2015-07-02T03:42:33Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-07-02T03:46:21Z beach: Any McCLIM users around? I have started making changes to ultimately eliminate MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN as a superclass of BASIC-PANE and I made a few minor changes yesterday. I just want to make sure I didn't break anything. I ran some tests myself of course, but McCLIM does not have a complete test suite, so I wanted to make sure.
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2015-07-02T04:01:11Z pjb: There's a new C pre processor implemented in Common Lisp at com.informatimago.common-lisp.languages.cpp ; here's an example: http://sprunge.us/GDBN
2015-07-02T04:01:56Z pjb: (It's output is actually a list of list of tokens (one sublist per line)).
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2015-07-02T04:04:51Z Bike: impressive. is it that :includes is where "" files are looked for, and :include-bracket-directories for <>?
2015-07-02T04:06:33Z pjb: aeth: the only places where you'd need a new standard, is where implementing it as a library would be very very inconvenient or impossible. For example, adding call-with-current-continuation to Common Lisp as a library is very very inconvenient: either you re-implement a whole scheme in CL, or you do it partially. Basically, it's almost impossible to integrate it correctly with existing CL control structures (block, throw, condition
2015-07-02T04:06:33Z pjb: handlers, restarts). Then if you really want call-with-current-continuation in CL, you will have to design a new standard.
2015-07-02T04:06:55Z pjb: aeth: but unless you have to go full metalinguistical to implement it, you don't need a new standard.
2015-07-02T04:09:01Z pjb: aeth: another example, is that extending the lisp reader to do some simple things such as reading sources to produce documentation, becomes soon very impractical (you have basically to go full metalinguisticall, starting with re-implement a lisp reader (done), but also a lisp implementation to be able to evaluate the reader macros and the *features* for the implementations. Adding a small feature to readtables could help a lot here.
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2015-07-02T04:09:26Z pjb: But this doesn't need a whole new standard, just an extension of Common Lisp (which are ALLOWED by the CL standard), so just a CDR and patches to implementations.
2015-07-02T04:09:37Z pjb: aeth: just go write CDRs!
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2015-07-02T04:16:09Z beach: I find the CDR process very sane. It's a shame so many people disparage it.
2015-07-02T04:17:03Z loke: beach: That would be because none of the CL vendors care about it.
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2015-07-02T04:19:00Z beach: And you think that can be fixed by declaring it useless? I think it can be fixed by more people using it.
2015-07-02T04:19:21Z beach: But, yes, I know, that's not the tradition here.
2015-07-02T04:19:31Z beach: Much easier to disparage.
2015-07-02T04:19:37Z loke: beach: I never declared anything. I have been known to state the it's _effectively_ pointless today.
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2015-07-02T04:19:58Z beach: I wasn't referring to you personally.
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2015-07-02T04:23:52Z pjb: Bike: yes. Actually the options are :include-quote-directories and :include-bracket-directories (and there's also an option to specify search functions), but for the cpp-e (test) driver command, I added a &key include parameter for ease of use.
2015-07-02T04:24:33Z pjb: loke: This is not correct, some CDRs are implemented in some implementations!
2015-07-02T04:24:58Z loke: pjb: Didn't we discuss this yesterday? And the conclusion was that the number was 2 (or was it 1)
2015-07-02T04:26:17Z pjb: ok, so far there's only Armed Bear Common Lisp --> (:CDR6).
2015-07-02T04:26:29Z pjb: Existance proof is all is needed :-)
2015-07-02T04:26:45Z kristof: Is there a uniform way to declare you implement a cdr?
2015-07-02T04:26:46Z pjb: Notice that there's at least one CDR that is implemented as a library.
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2015-07-02T04:26:54Z kristof: Perhaps just an exposed feature with the number?
2015-07-02T04:26:57Z pjb: kristof: yes, there's a CDR about it :-)
2015-07-02T04:27:03Z kristof: oh glorious
2015-07-02T04:27:11Z loke: pjb: You referring the hash table one? The one that was a library even before it become a cdr?
2015-07-02T04:27:51Z beach: loke: The fact is that people here are human, and they react to statements in various ways. When someone prominent like you declares a thing "pointless", some people react to that by losing interest in it.
2015-07-02T04:27:53Z beach: loke: So you are in fact doing something more than declaring it effectively pointless; you are implicitly encouraging less prominent people to drop it.
2015-07-02T04:28:11Z beach: loke: Now, that might of course be what you want.
2015-07-02T04:28:18Z loke: beach: Point taken. I guess I am.
2015-07-02T04:28:45Z loke: beach: It's caused by my personal disappointment that the process wasn't successful. It should have been.
2015-07-02T04:30:05Z beach: loke: You need to become less Swedish and more American. "We can do it!". :)
2015-07-02T04:30:16Z kristof: beach: Aren't you French? :P
2015-07-02T04:30:41Z beach: kristof: If only you knew.
2015-07-02T04:31:05Z kristof: I don't! This sounds like a good story.
2015-07-02T04:31:23Z beach: I won't bore #lisp participants with it.
2015-07-02T04:31:38Z kristof: Fair enough
2015-07-02T04:31:57Z loke: kristof: I guess it _can_ be done (anything is possible!) but how? Continuing down the cdr route seems hopeless to me. Still, there are a few pain-points in CL that can't be implemented using libraries (like the pjb-mentioned continuations), and a few others like extensible sequences
2015-07-02T04:32:18Z kristof: loke: you mean beach
2015-07-02T04:32:26Z pjb: loke: it's not hopeless, but it requires more coding, after writing the CDR: you have to provide the patches.
2015-07-02T04:32:39Z loke: Standardised code walkinger API and first-class environments are others.
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2015-07-02T04:33:11Z pjb: another thing that could be good for a "superset of the CL language" standard, would be real numbers.
2015-07-02T04:33:14Z beach: loke: If I were to drop everything that people have told me is "pointless", I wouldn't have done very many of the things I have.
2015-07-02T04:33:29Z theos: good morning everyone
2015-07-02T04:33:35Z loke: pjb: real numbers?
2015-07-02T04:33:50Z pjb: also, dynamic precision long float like in clisp are an extension that could be specified for a "superset of the CL language" standard.
2015-07-02T04:33:56Z beach: Good morning theos.
2015-07-02T04:33:59Z adhoc: beach: its funny how thats a great motivator
2015-07-02T04:34:03Z pjb: loke: as in realib (continued fraction or whatever).
2015-07-02T04:34:24Z loke: pjb: I see. That could be useful, yes
2015-07-02T04:34:42Z beach: adhoc: What is? Having others declare it pointless? Yeah, once you learn to take it the right way.
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2015-07-02T04:35:05Z adhoc: beach: yes, or declaring something as impossible, when its just really hard
2015-07-02T04:35:08Z loke: pjb: But wait a minute. I'm not a maths person but can't that be represented using rationals?
2015-07-02T04:35:26Z pjb: :-)
2015-07-02T04:35:37Z kristof: Who was it that said that Lisp comes with a free code walker in the form of MACROLET?
2015-07-02T04:35:43Z kristof: Doug Hoyte, or Paul Graham?
2015-07-02T04:35:45Z pjb: Nope, that's the most funny blunder non-mathematicians do. I mean, it's been know for more than 2500 years!
2015-07-02T04:35:47Z kristof: I think it was Hoyte.
2015-07-02T04:35:49Z beach: adhoc: I agree. But it has taken me decades to take such remarks as a challenge rather than being discouraged by them.
2015-07-02T04:36:33Z adhoc: beach: understood =)
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2015-07-02T04:37:02Z adhoc: its all too easy to clutter your life with unachievable ideas
2015-07-02T04:37:15Z adhoc: until you get one actually done
2015-07-02T04:37:32Z loke: pjb: are there real numbers that are not rational but have repeating digits? I
2015-07-02T04:37:39Z pjb: obviously, you have to distinguish: proven to be impossible, from pointless because I, from my ivory twer, am not interested in it.
2015-07-02T04:37:58Z kristof: loke: Any repeating decimal can be represented as a rational number.
2015-07-02T04:38:05Z loke: kristof: exactly
2015-07-02T04:38:10Z pjb: loke: if there's no infinite repeatition, that doesn't count.
2015-07-02T04:38:11Z kristof: loke: Because any repeating decimal can be represented as an infinite geometric series.
2015-07-02T04:38:20Z kristof: What pjb said :P
2015-07-02T04:38:39Z loke: Right, so exactly what is it pjb wants then? Exact representation of irrational numbers?
2015-07-02T04:38:50Z kristof: Irrational, transcendental, yeah
2015-07-02T04:38:58Z kristof: Not exact, but arbitrarily precise
2015-07-02T04:39:00Z loke: Let's take it all the way to surreal numbers.
2015-07-02T04:39:19Z Zhivago: Don't forget infintessimals.
2015-07-02T04:39:23Z kristof: Well, think of a little function that everytime you ask it for another 3 orders of precision, it gives it to you.
2015-07-02T04:39:28Z loke: kristof: But you can be arbitrarily precise with rationals...
2015-07-02T04:39:38Z loke: kristof: OK, then I unmderstand
2015-07-02T04:39:48Z pjb: loke: yes. This would be a symbolic representation, basically, the same you'd write on paper in maths. We can still compute with them, and notably, compute approximations.
2015-07-02T04:39:51Z kristof: loke: Okay, sure. But that's an implementation detail.
2015-07-02T04:39:53Z loke: Zhivago: That's covered by the surreal numbers.
2015-07-02T04:40:08Z kristof: No, it's not :o
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2015-07-02T04:40:18Z kristof: infinitessimals are hyperreals
2015-07-02T04:40:33Z kristof: This is not Lisp! OT!
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2015-07-02T04:40:51Z pjb: Not entirely.
2015-07-02T04:41:04Z loke: "In mathematics, the surreal number system is an arithmetic continuum containing the real numbers as well as infinite and infinitesimal numbers, respectively larger or smaller in absolute value than any positive real number."
2015-07-02T04:41:15Z pjb: The point here is that it's impossible to perform exact numerical computation with those numbers (as simple as (sqrt 2)!!!).
2015-07-02T04:41:17Z loke: seems to me it covers infitesimals too
2015-07-02T04:41:49Z pjb: But lisp is a symbolic programming language, and it would seem perfectly normal to have them as symbolic value that can be represented and computed with, exactly.
2015-07-02T04:41:57Z pjb: So (expt (sqrt 2) 2) --> 2
2015-07-02T04:41:59Z pjb: and not 2.0
2015-07-02T04:42:32Z loke: pjb: What languages does that? Mathematica?
2015-07-02T04:42:43Z Zhivago: Considering floats as intervals might help.
2015-07-02T04:42:47Z pjb: and (exp (* pi (sqrt -1))) -> -1 exactly.
2015-07-02T04:43:18Z pjb: loke: yes, a few mathematical systems can computer symbolically with reals.
2015-07-02T04:43:40Z pjb: Check this expression in CL, we get a complex number!
2015-07-02T04:43:42Z loke: pjb: Right, but outside of maths applications, there are no general languages that support it?
2015-07-02T04:44:03Z pjb: Hence Ariane-5 and a few other rocket explosions.
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2015-07-02T04:45:14Z PuercoPop: Oi, I'm profiling the use of hashtables (instead of alists or plists) in stumpwm's *event-fn-table* which is populated only once and then it is accessed to dispatch x11 events. My hypothesis is that the use of hashtables is a premature optimization. Any obvious mistake in my benchmarking methodology? Any pro tips? Here is the code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150940
2015-07-02T04:45:55Z Zhivago: Symbolic mathematics is pretty complicated -- think about what happens when you write (* 2 (sqrt x)) and x turns out to be pi.
2015-07-02T04:46:41Z pjb: PuercoPop: basically, if you have more than half a dozen elements (in implementations like sbcl or ccl), then you can go hash-table. below, a-lists or p-lists are better.
2015-07-02T04:47:24Z Zhivago: The result of that expression is pretty much that expression in some form -- and then you need future expressions to be able to factor things out of it, since it's not itself reducable.
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2015-07-02T04:48:32Z Zhivago: And since real people rarely care enough about doing that kind of stuff, it doesn't get done in real systems.
2015-07-02T04:48:56Z pjb: and then people complain about 2.00001 and 0.9999999
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2015-07-02T04:49:54Z Zhivago: Unfortunately the cost of educating them around that issue is low enough that that's what gets done. :)
2015-07-02T04:50:31Z pjb: Zhivago: this is not the point. We have rational, we don't need education: their use is optional (and sometimes people use them without realizing).
2015-07-02T04:50:42Z pjb: having real reals would be similar.
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2015-07-02T04:51:01Z Zhivago: Well, it's a kind of half-arsed stop-gap, I guess.
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2015-07-02T04:52:44Z PuercoPop: pjb: then I must be bench-marking wrong. The table has 17 elements but my measurements favor plists.
2015-07-02T04:53:12Z pjb: PuercoPop: did you compile with optimize speed 3?
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2015-07-02T04:54:08Z pjb: Also, you may want to make the hash-tables yourself, and compare with different test functions.
2015-07-02T04:54:30Z PuercoPop: no, but then again the code is not ran under speed 3
2015-07-02T04:54:32Z pjb: (the hash function will depend on the test function and may impact strongly the performance of the hash-table).
2015-07-02T04:54:49Z PuercoPop: the test-function is eq as the keys are keywords
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2015-07-02T04:56:41Z pjb: anyways, 17 is within the range. for clisp it was 35.
2015-07-02T04:58:30Z PuercoPop: I understood half a dozen as ~6. So in clisp it should favor plists even more? good to know.
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2015-07-02T04:58:53Z pjb: Yes.
2015-07-02T04:59:34Z pjb: That said, I benchmarked a few years ago, probably on a 32-bit system. It might be good to try again on 64-bit that may change the results.
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2015-07-02T05:08:37Z wobh: hello
2015-07-02T05:08:48Z beach: Hello wobh.
2015-07-02T05:08:52Z pjb: hi wobh!
2015-07-02T05:09:13Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-07-02T05:09:50Z otwieracz: hey
2015-07-02T05:09:56Z wobh: So I've been thinking about forking the CL cookbook and putting in on Github (or something). How terrible and idea is that?
2015-07-02T05:10:16Z pjb: wobh: forking is a normal operation for github repositories.
2015-07-02T05:10:18Z pjb: Go ahead.
2015-07-02T05:10:26Z wobh: s/and idea/an idea/
2015-07-02T05:10:31Z jackdaniel: wobh: why not suggest authors to move there?
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2015-07-02T05:10:41Z jackdaniel: or maybe you did it already and met wall of silence?
2015-07-02T05:10:55Z pjb: Well, once the authors receive a few pull requests, they may be motivated.
2015-07-02T05:11:19Z jackdaniel: yes, but cookbook isn't on github yet, I think it's wobh idea to put it there
2015-07-02T05:12:10Z wobh: Yeah, currently it's hosted on the increasingly spammy sourceforge.
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2015-07-02T05:12:42Z wobh: I don't like thinking of it as a "rescue" but I feel like it kinda would be.
2015-07-02T05:12:52Z pjb: wobh: if it's already under a revision system you should try to convert it to git first, by using eg. reposurgeon.
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2015-07-02T05:13:25Z wobh: Yeah, there's also the matter of converting CVS to Git. That's pretty important.
2015-07-02T05:13:33Z jackdaniel: wobh: i'd try suggestion to authors, and if that fails due to lack of interest, then it's fine
2015-07-02T05:13:51Z pjb: wobh: http://www.catb.org/~esr/reposurgeon/dvcs-migration-guide.html
2015-07-02T05:14:12Z wobh: jackdaniel: that's a good idea, and seems like the considerate thing to do.
2015-07-02T05:14:20Z jackdaniel: :)
2015-07-02T05:14:20Z PuercoPop: sourceforge is included on the uBlock adblocker
2015-07-02T05:14:31Z pjb: actually, we should prepare for a sourceforge implosion, and therefore move to git all the CL (sleeping) projects still on sourceforge.
2015-07-02T05:14:59Z PuercoPop: I was unaware how mucho slower clisp is compared to sbcl!
2015-07-02T05:15:05Z jackdaniel: how to move mailing list archives?
2015-07-02T05:15:16Z pjb: PuercoPop: depends what for.
2015-07-02T05:15:52Z pjb: PuercoPop: if you use a lot of CL operators, then it's as fast or faster ,since they're written mostly in C. If you write your own code, then it's interpreter or byte-code compiled and VM intepreted, therefore slower.
2015-07-02T05:16:43Z pjb: What's surprising however, is the slowness of gethash which is implemented in C. What that shows, is that implementing complex algorithms (as little complex as computing a good hash) in C is very hard and leads to slower code than in CL.
2015-07-02T05:18:10Z PuercoPop: pjb: the benchmark code on clisp is takes almost 5 minutes on Clisp, but it conses when in SBCL it didn't so I should take a look at what is actually being run in SBCL probably.
2015-07-02T05:18:56Z akkad: sorceforget
2015-07-02T05:19:22Z pjb: 901 lisp programs on sf: http://sourceforge.net/directory/?q=lisp
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2015-07-02T05:23:14Z wobh: So the mailing list is also hosted by sourceforge. I wonder if I should try to contact John Thingstad directly.
2015-07-02T05:23:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2015-07-02T05:24:12Z wobh: The last message in the archive is from 2013, "hello"
2015-07-02T05:25:00Z wobh: The one before that is from 2012, a feature request auto-post.
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2015-07-02T05:35:57Z wobh: pjb: thanks for the link on conversion.
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2015-07-02T05:38:30Z Fare: is it just me? trying to install the sbcl 1.2.12 msi (either x86 or x64) fails for me.
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2015-07-02T05:42:36Z Fare: has anyone used sb-ext:run-program on Windows recently?
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2015-07-02T05:43:48Z schjetne: beach: I feel bad about the Gmail comments now
2015-07-02T05:44:51Z Fare: any windows user around?
2015-07-02T05:44:57Z wobh: Ok emailed the last known address of jthing
2015-07-02T05:45:36Z wobh: I have used SBCL on windows, but not recently. My windows computer is a bit of bust right now. Sorry.
2015-07-02T05:46:10Z wobh: (laptop, lamp dying. Just goes black.)
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2015-07-02T05:51:12Z wobh: Hmm http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/copying-cl-cookbook-to-wikibook-ideas-feedback/702419
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2015-07-02T05:52:36Z wobh: that was in 2006, but it seems that jpt took over in 2008 http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/copying-cl-cookbook-to-wikibook-ideas-feedback/702419
2015-07-02T05:52:57Z wobh: err http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/cl-cookbook/704734
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2015-07-02T05:55:55Z wobh: And this is the new link to the wikibook https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Common_Lisp
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2015-07-02T06:06:20Z beach: schjetne: That was by design.
2015-07-02T06:06:37Z beach: schjetne: Don't take it personally.
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2015-07-02T06:08:06Z beach: schjetne: It's just a general ambiance here in #lisp.
2015-07-02T06:08:37Z Shinmera: Argh, looks like Colleen broke down over night and didn't do any logging. Sorry about that. I'll backport from the clozure logs.
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2015-07-02T06:13:03Z ilya: hi. using cl-yason, i would like to change how true and false are parsed (:true and :false instead of 'yason:true and 'yason:false). i could just run (parse) and then map the structure but it seems like waste. can i wrap the yason:parse-constant function in a way that would work? if i understand correctly, if i replace it after the module is loaded it won't help because other functions will already have reference to the old symbol. what do
2015-07-02T06:13:12Z beach: Shinmera: But I guess #clasp logs are lost.
2015-07-02T06:13:53Z Shinmera: Yeah :(
2015-07-02T06:14:20Z Shinmera: My hoster was having network problems about an hour before I left for bed, so that might have happened again while I was asleep.
2015-07-02T06:14:40Z schjetne: beach: throwing out the whole thing for inspiration was unwarranted, I was just complaining about posting styles. Apparently Gmail transforms everything to an IM-like thread, so user experience is great as long as both parties use Gmail.
2015-07-02T06:15:39Z schjetne: Incidentally I've been sketching on a file tagging system myself
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2015-07-02T06:17:13Z schjetne: The idea is to define tags that depend on each other, so the system can suggest tags for new files, or highlight files that might have have a newly added tag apply to them
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2015-07-02T06:17:53Z schjetne: And then project the whole thing onto a hierarchal file system using CL-Webdav or CL-FUSE so it can be transparently accessed by other programs
2015-07-02T06:18:33Z jackdaniel: beach: Shinmera: its only since yesterday, but dumped my #clasp buffer http://ix.io/jqi
2015-07-02T06:18:51Z schjetne: Maybe a stop-gap measure until we have something native
2015-07-02T06:18:53Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: What offset do those timestamps have?
2015-07-02T06:18:56Z jackdaniel: day-before-yeserday that is°
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2015-07-02T06:19:17Z Shinmera: Apparently nothing new got posted over night anyway though
2015-07-02T06:19:24Z jackdaniel: 30VI (~5pm CET) -- now
2015-07-02T06:19:24Z beach: schjetne: Sounds good.
2015-07-02T06:20:05Z beach: schjetne: I am thinking an in-core system. But others have opinions about that.
2015-07-02T06:20:27Z beach: jackdaniel: Oh, thanks!
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2015-07-02T06:20:41Z jackdaniel: beach: np
2015-07-02T06:21:20Z Shinmera: beach: According to what jackdaniel just posted the logs on Clasp are complete on log.irc.tymoon.eu
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2015-07-02T06:21:44Z beach: Oh, OK. [confused]
2015-07-02T06:22:04Z jackdaniel: last message is from 21:51 (CET)
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2015-07-02T06:24:33Z kamentomov: Hi! What is wrong with this form: (#'+ 1 2)?
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2015-07-02T06:25:08Z Shinmera: kamentomov: that's ((function +) 1 2) which is not a valid form.
2015-07-02T06:25:45Z Shinmera: You'll want (funcall #'+ 1 2) or just (+ 1 2)
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2015-07-02T06:26:06Z kamentomov: Shinmera: thank you but why it isn't a valid form?
2015-07-02T06:26:13Z Shinmera: Because it's defined that way.
2015-07-02T06:26:35Z schjetne: beach: I haven't started implementing yet, but I think I'll keep the files in the normal file system, named by the hash of their contents, and the metadata using one of the persistence libraries
2015-07-02T06:27:10Z schjetne: And do the tagging GUI in CLIM or in the browser
2015-07-02T06:27:21Z kamentomov: \whois kamentomov
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2015-07-02T06:28:37Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/form
2015-07-02T06:28:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#form
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2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: quazimodo pjb pillton sdemarre tkd Natch CEnnis91 bege sheilong A205B064 jself bgs100 ASau isoraqathedh emanuelz cpopell3 brpocock Jaskologist milosn anunnaki psy_ srcerer defaultxr lancetw sulky mathrick synchromesh gendl__ clog snafuchs Neet splittist billstclair danlentz jasom torpig GGMethos zymurgy bjorkintosh eazar001 scharan backupthrick_ synergy_ codeitagile trn AntiSpamMeta kalzz lpaste bb010g sbryant ircbrows- marvi_ haasn john-mca` ThePhoeron
2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: trig-ger_ abbe yrk ec\_ lemoinem jsnell_ sivoais c74d3 Ober_ otwieracz zyoung_ hratsimi1ah larocca_ eak_ p_l frsilent sytse_ joga misv_ kaptin Tuxedo easye` cyraxjoe lacedaemon Blkt_ victor_lowther justinmcp joshmcmillan_ asedeno alms_clozure sepi` reb`` eschulte ahungry_ Posterdati flip214 yasha9 streptotrichosis heurist` yorick spintronic pavelpenev aretecode djh emlow mulk_ whiteline radioninja_work theos knobo salv0 Walex cyphase myrk2 impulse mtd
2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: moei yeticry kvsari adhoc ninja-maid-robot `micro dmiles_afk Oddity MoALTz__ constantinexvi ft devon Patzy foom NaNDude sz0 emaczen dougk_ emuxius arrubin marinintim Xach schoppenhauer HDurer dtw skrue xan_ jewel jrm balle fikusz larxy kanru nydel roscoe_tw dvgroc froggey whartung guiloooo honkfestival hlavaty cmatei manfoo7 araujo kjeldahl zacts salva les hitecnologys lala Zhivago PlasmaStar MrWoohoo Bike mlamari farhaven ferada setheus SAL9000 copec
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2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: clop yauz NhanH frankS2 dlowe gz stokachu birk d4gg4d Subfusc lieven rvirding XachX rotty1 cojy angus yeltzooo gabot viaken2 bcoburn axion tmh_ rj-code zmyrgel brent80_plow sjl zbigniew phf tokenrove decent stux|RC ck_ Takumo mood oGMo The_third_man gensym spacebat1 motumla mikaelj_ jeaye fionnan aeth nopf dim edran cantstanya zickzackv ivan4th ivan\ Intensity AeroNotix sellout l1x kbtr rvchangu- p_l|backup eagleflo dsp_ low-profile RazWelle1 diginet
2015-07-02T06:32:20Z names: musegarden metaf5 peccu larme schjetne clarkema Guest15425 _death jackdaniel samebcha1e Mandus_ nisstyre alchemis7 nightfly erg minion cibs tomaw tessier SHODAN bytecrawler renard_ theBlackDragon failproofshark Fade z0d aerique vsync wyan ineiros cmbntr ramus oconnore j_king jayne klltkr_ finnrobi_
2015-07-02T06:32:20Z kornbluth.freenode.net:#lisp- [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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2015-07-02T06:33:06Z emaczen`: H4ns: Why not?
2015-07-02T06:33:12Z wobh: long answer: read _Let Over Lambda_ and replace with pandoric macro.
2015-07-02T06:33:55Z H4ns: emaczen`: because there is no portable way to do it. it is very likely that the names x and y are already los.
2015-07-02T06:34:14Z emaczen`: H4ns: Fair enough
2015-07-02T06:34:22Z H4ns: emaczen`: this is not to say that it is impossible to get at the values. it is just not something that you'll want to do in regular programs.
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2015-07-02T06:36:06Z Zhivago: If you are using a closure as an object, then you perhaps should not be using a closure.
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2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: zeitue Mhoram Jubb quazimodo pjb pillton sdemarre tkd Natch CEnnis91 bege sheilong A205B064 jself bgs100 ASau isoraqathedh emanuelz cpopell3 brpocock Jaskologist milosn anunnaki psy_ srcerer defaultxr lancetw sulky mathrick synchromesh gendl__ clog snafuchs Neet splittist billstclair danlentz jasom torpig GGMethos zymurgy bjorkintosh eazar001 scharan backupthrick_ synergy_ codeitagile trn AntiSpamMeta kalzz lpaste bb010g sbryant ircbrows- marvi_ haasn
2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: john-mca` ThePhoeron trig-ger_ abbe yrk ec\_ lemoinem jsnell_ sivoais c74d3 Ober_ otwieracz zyoung_ hratsimi1ah larocca_ eak_ p_l frsilent sytse_ joga misv_ kaptin Tuxedo easye` cyraxjoe lacedaemon Blkt_ victor_lowther justinmcp joshmcmillan_ asedeno alms_clozure sepi` reb`` eschulte ahungry_ Posterdati flip214 yasha9 streptotrichosis heurist` yorick spintronic pavelpenev aretecode djh emlow mulk_ whiteline radioninja_work theos knobo salv0 Walex cyphase
2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: myrk2 impulse mtd moei yeticry kvsari adhoc ninja-maid-robot `micro dmiles_afk Oddity MoALTz__ constantinexvi ft devon Patzy foom NaNDude sz0 emaczen dougk_ emuxius arrubin marinintim Xach schoppenhauer HDurer dtw skrue xan_ jewel jrm balle fikusz larxy kanru nydel roscoe_tw dvgroc froggey whartung guiloooo honkfestival hlavaty cmatei manfoo7 araujo kjeldahl zacts salva les hitecnologys lala Zhivago PlasmaStar MrWoohoo Bike mlamari farhaven ferada setheus
2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: SAL9000 copec cods mingvs Tordek vert2 hyoyoung techiewickie ozzloy cpt_nemo Oladon capitaomorte j0ni Khisanth jdz Fleurety PuercoPop jtz wolgo vhost- lokulin dfox prince_jammys loz vap1 loke brucem pinterface1 joneshf-laptop replcated_ akkad vlnx seg smull gniourf segmond Kruppe ssake_ ssake phadthai ryankarason newcup pok sharkz_ sharkz p8m crichter eli warex zaquest tristero __main__ joast arrsim ski epitron christoph_debian mach Cthulhux bishopj` joshe
2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: jaffachief s1n4 someone TeMPOraL alex6407 troydm xristos taij33n |3b| izabera gko ktx PinealGlandOptic qlkzy nicdev K1rk funnel peterhil` wooden ahungry pchrist cross Zotan H4ns Tristam brandonz switchp0rt housel shifty779 dilated_dinosaur m_zr0 redline6561 sigjuice EnergyCoffee sfa thomas russell-- antoszka ``Erik drdo sshirokov endou___________ wizzo wolf_moz- alladia_ drmeister swflint_away daimrod johs eMBee tokik luis ecraven kini josteink ggherdov
2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: specbot clop yauz NhanH frankS2 dlowe gz stokachu birk d4gg4d Subfusc lieven rvirding XachX rotty1 cojy angus yeltzooo gabot viaken2 bcoburn axion tmh_ rj-code zmyrgel brent80_plow sjl zbigniew phf tokenrove decent stux|RC ck_ Takumo mood oGMo The_third_man zickzackv gensym spacebat1 ivan4th motumla mikaelj_ jeaye fionnan aeth nopf dim edran cantstanya ivan\ Intensity AeroNotix sellout l1x kbtr rvchangu- p_l|backup eagleflo dsp_ low-profile RazWelle1
2015-07-02T06:52:28Z names: diginet musegarden metaf5 peccu larme schjetne clarkema Guest15425 _death jackdaniel samebcha1e Mandus_ nisstyre alchemis7 nightfly erg minion cibs tomaw tessier SHODAN bytecrawler renard_ theBlackDragon failproofshark Fade z0d aerique vsync wyan ineiros cmbntr ramus oconnore j_king finnrobi_ klltkr_ jayne
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2015-07-02T07:11:24Z pjb: kamentomov: basically, it's an invalid form for the fundamental reason that Common Lisp DOES NOT _evaluate_ the operator! (contrary to scheme). This is done so that one may write a efficient CL compiler easily.
2015-07-02T07:11:54Z pjb: kamentomov: check chapter 3. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_.htm
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2015-07-02T07:25:51Z kamentomov: \quit
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2015-07-02T07:30:12Z resttime: is there a function like #'cond which continues to evaluate even after a case is true?
2015-07-02T07:31:06Z Shinmera: resttime: Just use a couple of WHENs
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2015-07-02T07:32:09Z resttime: Shinmera, kk gotcha
2015-07-02T07:32:13Z pjb: wobh: cvssync is another esr tool: http://www.catb.org/~esr/cvs-fast-export/cvssync.html
2015-07-02T07:32:25Z pjb: wobh: http://www.catb.org/~esr/cvs-fast-export/
2015-07-02T07:32:42Z pjb: This is why I put everything in a single git repo, so users get all my tools at once…
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2015-07-02T07:33:23Z pjb: resttime: cond is not a function.
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2015-07-02T07:35:41Z resttime: pjb, oh you're right, it's a macro
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2015-07-02T07:40:10Z kamentomov: Shinmera: beach, I figured it out and I'm grateful. I wondered if there is a portable way to get the name of a function from a function object? Second thing was if I can get the name can I do something like ((function-name function) args). I'm just looking around.. no biggie
2015-07-02T07:40:32Z drmeister: Hello.
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2015-07-02T07:41:11Z H4ns: kamentomov: you can't. what are you trying to do? why do you need to put the function object into the function expression of the s-expression? are you writing a macro?
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2015-07-02T07:43:07Z kamentomov: I'm just poking around, H4ns. I'm not wrting a macro. "No" to both questions or?
2015-07-02T07:43:27Z ecraven: can I tell SLIME to fuzzy complete symbols? or complete at any part inside the symbol, not just the beginning?
2015-07-02T07:43:45Z Shinmera: kamentomov: There might be an implementation specific way to retrieve the name, but nothing in the standard.
2015-07-02T07:44:13Z H4ns: kamentomov: even if you have the function name, you need funcall or apply to call it
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2015-07-02T07:45:00Z pjb: kamentomov: functions have between 0 and N names!
2015-07-02T07:45:30Z kamentomov: ecraven: Try M-x slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol
2015-07-02T07:46:35Z ecraven: kamentomov: thanks!
2015-07-02T07:46:45Z kamentomov: pjb: that's ok. Any portable way to get any of them?
2015-07-02T07:47:21Z kamentomov: H4ns: I see - thanks
2015-07-02T07:47:25Z pjb: kamentomov: conforming code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/132174#1
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2015-07-02T07:48:20Z pjb: kamentomov: if you do: (defstruct p f) (defvar *v* (make-p :f (lambda (x) x))), then you could also infer a name such as (p-f *v*) for that anonymous function.
2015-07-02T07:49:16Z pjb: kamentomov: but scanning the whole image for all such references (ie. finding all the paths leading to live lisp objects), is very costly, and not 100% possible in conforming code. (eg. you can't know what's in closures).
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2015-07-02T07:49:52Z pjb: So it could be possible that (funcall *f* 1) is the name of a function, but you couldn't guess it easily.
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2015-07-02T07:51:58Z pjb: kamentomov: again, if you wonder why the standard doesn't include these features, it's because it was designed to allow efficient implementations on strange targets. For example, if you want to compile a CL program on a 8-bit machine with 64 KB RAM, then you cannot keep the symbol naming the lexical variables around, or the useless names of the functions, etc.
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2015-07-02T07:52:42Z pjb: On the other hand, on the machines we have nowadays, you can write a CL implementation that provides all sort of development and debugging niceties, such as this (and cf. therefore slime features).
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2015-07-02T07:54:46Z Zhivago: That's not quite true.
2015-07-02T07:55:02Z Zhivago: You need to remember that CL was envisioned as a compatibility layer between existing implementations.
2015-07-02T07:55:37Z Zhivago: They tried to minimize the burden on existing implementations, which is why most of the environmental introspection stuff in CLTL2 didn't make it in.
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2015-07-02T07:58:35Z Shinmera: kamentomov: function-lambda-expression can give you the function name, but it isn't guaranteed.
2015-07-02T07:59:06Z Shinmera: Or rather, it can give you a name, which may or may not be the name it was defined by, if it returns one at all.
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2015-07-02T08:00:59Z pjb: Nice: The tertiary value, name, is the ``name'' of function. The name is intended for debugging only and is not necessarily one that would be valid for use as a name in defun or function. :-)
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2015-07-02T08:01:55Z kamentomov: Very interesting insides. Shinmera, that's awesome! Thanks to all!
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2015-07-02T08:04:34Z loke: Does anyone know if iolib works on Windows? I'm using it for some low-level stuff and I somehow dooubt that it does, given just how unix-centric the API seems to be.
2015-07-02T08:05:21Z Shinmera: The trouble will probably be getting libfixposix to work.
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2015-07-02T08:14:37Z dim: loke: I don't think it does, but I might be wrong, fe[nl]ix is the author and shows up here at times
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2015-07-02T08:16:40Z loke: Oh, fenlix is the author?
2015-07-02T08:17:29Z wobh: good night
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2015-07-02T08:19:17Z dim: loke: unless I'm mixing nicknames again, yeah
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2015-07-02T08:20:14Z dim: also see #iolib
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2015-07-02T08:24:37Z loke: According to the web page they only support linux and freebas
2015-07-02T08:24:40Z loke: freebsd
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2015-07-02T08:32:02Z ecraven: kamentomov: would you happen to know what the flags mean, for slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol? they seem to be bfgctmsp, f for function, m for macro I assume?
2015-07-02T08:32:48Z loke: p = package
2015-07-02T08:32:51Z loke: c = class
2015-07-02T08:32:58Z loke: t = type
2015-07-02T08:33:25Z loke: s = special
2015-07-02T08:33:41Z loke: b = constant (if I remember correctly)
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2015-07-02T08:34:08Z loke: No, it seems to be globals
2015-07-02T08:36:20Z ecraven: loke: thanks!
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2015-07-02T08:38:15Z loke: Oh, and g = generic function
2015-07-02T08:38:23Z loke: That should be all, I think
2015-07-02T08:38:35Z ecraven: great, thank you again!
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2015-07-02T08:39:04Z ecraven: hm.. what's a global?
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2015-07-02T08:39:11Z ecraven: boole-andc1 is one, for example
2015-07-02T08:40:06Z loke: Anything that has been DEFVAR'ed, DEFCONST or DEFPARAMETER
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2015-07-02T08:40:21Z ecraven: thanks :)
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2015-07-02T08:45:58Z enedil: hi!
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2015-07-02T08:47:05Z enedil: Anyone knows why clisp yelds `((SETF X (READ))) should be a lambda expression` http://pastebin.com/9McrWi4i ? `main` is a one-argument function.
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2015-07-02T08:48:08Z dim: did you try with CCL and SBCL, and do you have the same behaviour?
2015-07-02T08:48:19Z Shinmera: dim: just look at the code, it's obviously wrong
2015-07-02T08:48:19Z H4ns: line 6 is just syntactically incorrect
2015-07-02T08:48:29Z dim: Shinmera: sorry then
2015-07-02T08:48:34Z splittist: pjb: congrats on the cpp thing - the spec is truly bizarre. Should "definiting" be "defining"?
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2015-07-02T08:48:54Z dim: condition-too-lazy
2015-07-02T08:49:06Z H4ns: enedil: you can't just put extra parentheses around something. they are more than grouping constructs as they are in arithmetic expressions.
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2015-07-02T08:50:03Z Shinmera: dim: Also, I just realised I never got back to you about qt-libs on the weekend. Sorry!
2015-07-02T08:51:04Z dim: no pb
2015-07-02T08:51:40Z pjb: splittist: definitely, thanks :-)
2015-07-02T08:51:44Z Shinmera: dim: I realised that OS X doesn't have Qt as shared libraries by default, which means I need to handle deployment for those as well. Then I got fed up with it and forgot about it.
2015-07-02T08:52:27Z dim: on this topic I failed to find docs explaining how to static link against foreign libs using SBCL, which I would like to try for pgloader
2015-07-02T08:52:51Z Shinmera: iirc it's not a main feature anyway
2015-07-02T08:53:16Z Shinmera: #sbcl people might have some ideas though
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2015-07-02T08:55:37Z enedil: @H4ns I know - but the setf should be distinguished from format, shouldn't it?
2015-07-02T08:55:45Z enedil: @H4ns I know - but the setf should be distinguished from format, shouldn't it?
2015-07-02T08:55:54Z enedil: H4ns: I know - but the setf should be distinguished from format, shouldn't it?
2015-07-02T08:55:54Z H4ns: e e
2015-07-02T08:56:10Z H4ns: enedil: i do not understand what you mean by that
2015-07-02T08:56:38Z enedil: Look: (setf x (read))
2015-07-02T08:56:38Z enedil: (format t "~S~%" (main x))
2015-07-02T08:57:11Z enedil: why do you state that I shouldn't use parentheses around setf?
2015-07-02T08:57:31Z enedil: these are different expressions
2015-07-02T08:57:37Z enedil: H4ns:
2015-07-02T08:57:57Z H4ns: enedil: you had it like ((setf x (read))) before and that was wrong.
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2015-07-02T09:00:27Z pjb: enedil: check #clnoobs
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2015-07-02T09:01:07Z jackdaniel: enedil: maybe you did want to do something like `(,(setf x '+) 1 2 3) ? not that it makes any sense tough
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2015-07-02T09:03:14Z enedil: H4ns: aaaah! I realized - I thought that cond macro is taking 2 args - one expression and a list, while it takes one testing expression and how-much-do-you-want args. Thank you, all, especially H4ns
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2015-07-02T10:43:25Z djh: beginner's question: (let ((foo 'bar)) (list foo)) returns (BAR) as I'd expect, but (let ((foo 'bar)) (list 'quote foo)) returns 'BAR rather than ('BAR) - how come? (In clisp repl)
2015-07-02T10:44:01Z djh: i.e. why is it not in a list?
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2015-07-02T10:49:12Z angus: djh: 'bar and (quote bar) are the same
2015-07-02T10:51:25Z djh: ohh.. so list returns (quote bar) and then *that* evals to 'bar?
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2015-07-02T10:52:01Z angus: no.. it's not evaling. the printer sees the list (quote bar) and prints it using the alternative form
2015-07-02T10:52:34Z djh: yes, that's what I meant. Poorly worded, sorry
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2015-07-02T11:25:29Z loz: about drakma, how should one make request with utf characters in url?
2015-07-02T11:26:03Z loz: as I see, http-request has hardcoded :latin-1 stream
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2015-07-02T11:50:15Z loz: any portable library to handle command line arguments?
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2015-07-02T12:00:04Z jackdaniel: loz: url doesn't accept utf-8 characters, you have to use percent-encoding
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2015-07-02T12:01:04Z loz: jackdaniel: ok, just wrote one myself
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2015-07-02T12:02:58Z loz: can't get command line arguments for sbcl image now
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2015-07-02T12:04:48Z Xach: uiop:command-line-arguments is one way
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2015-07-02T12:48:52Z loz: is there any speed difference between (f x) and (funcall #'f x) ?
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2015-07-02T12:49:01Z H4ns: measure.
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2015-07-02T12:52:30Z loz: H4ns: strange thing is bytes consed: https://gist.github.com/maximvl/0d837c470f663ea32bc6
2015-07-02T12:52:44Z nyef: loz: With SBCL, the speed difference, if there is any, would be in the reader and the compiler, they should produce essentially identical code at runtime.
2015-07-02T12:54:18Z H4ns: loz: i have no explanation for the 14k consed in the second case, but as it is such a tiny amount of memory, i would just ignore it.
2015-07-02T12:54:31Z H4ns: loz: run it again to see if the amount is always the same.
2015-07-02T12:55:18Z loz: H4ns: becames less until reaches zero for both cases
2015-07-02T12:55:24Z ggole: Microbenchmarks like this aren't really reliable
2015-07-02T12:55:58Z H4ns: ggole: reliable enough in this case
2015-07-02T12:56:02Z ecraven: using sbcl, I see the opposite, consing in the first case (1968 bytes), no consing then
2015-07-02T12:56:24Z ggole: A strong compiler could easily fold away the car operation or even elide the whole loop
2015-07-02T12:56:28Z ecraven: seems rather arbitrary
2015-07-02T12:57:05Z nyef: You could DECLARE NOTINLINE, which should defeat such optimizations.
2015-07-02T12:57:40Z nyef: At which point you're testing funcall/return overhead, primarily.
2015-07-02T12:57:42Z ggole: Turning off inlining doesn't really defeat DCE
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2015-07-02T12:58:54Z ggole: And even if it does, it's easy to measure something other than what you think you are measuring
2015-07-02T12:58:55Z H4ns: well, maybe using a function with side effects would be better for benchmarking, i agree.
2015-07-02T12:59:12Z H4ns: ggole: as always, it helps to know what you're doing.
2015-07-02T12:59:17Z nyef: If you declare notinline, the compiler can't know that it's side-effect-free.
2015-07-02T12:59:18Z ggole: Sure enough.
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2015-07-02T13:00:28Z ggole: nyef: is that really true? Notinline should guarantee redefinability, but I don't think there are any promises about optimisation
2015-07-02T13:02:05Z loz: just thinking about optimizing my -> macro
2015-07-02T13:02:29Z loz: probably doesn't worth it
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2015-07-02T13:04:17Z nyef: ggole: If the compiler optimizes based on what it knows about a function, and then you change the function, what it knew was wrong, and could break.
2015-07-02T13:06:53Z ggole: Guards, code invalidation and similar techniques allow for it (by preventing execution entering parts of the code in which such assumptions were used).
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2015-07-02T13:07:09Z ggole: I don't think CL implementations tend to use these techniques though.
2015-07-02T13:07:27Z ecraven: nyef: recompile everything that uses that function
2015-07-02T13:07:33Z ecraven: isn't that what self does?
2015-07-02T13:07:34Z ggole: So in practice, I suppose you're right.
2015-07-02T13:07:54Z nyef: ecraven: Common Lisp is not Self.
2015-07-02T13:09:04Z ecraven: nyef: how does that prevent it from re-compiling things?
2015-07-02T13:10:17Z nyef: It doesn't, but it'd be a bit of work to make it happen... and mind the constraints on "minimal compilation"!
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2015-07-02T13:31:55Z Posterdati: hi
2015-07-02T13:32:03Z Posterdati: please help: A non-existent ERRNO-VALUES syscall error has been signaled: UNKNOWN, 121. This seems to be a bug in IOlib. Please report it to iolib-devel@common-lisp.net
2015-07-02T13:32:15Z Posterdati: what is error 121?
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2015-07-02T13:34:45Z Xach: Posterdati: unknown.
2015-07-02T13:34:55Z Posterdati: nice
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2015-07-02T13:36:45Z Xach: On my system, errno 121 corresponds to EREMOTEIO, Remote I/O error.
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2015-07-02T13:38:24Z pjb: loz: beware that the answer to your question may depends on whether you're considering a CL function or a user function.
2015-07-02T13:38:47Z pjb: loz: a CL implementation can open code any of its operators (as if they were all special operators!).
2015-07-02T13:40:29Z Posterdati: XachX: it occurs in ecl when I try to write a one byte buffer on the i2c
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2015-07-02T13:55:08Z Zhivago: Note that special operators need not be open coded.
2015-07-02T13:55:20Z oleo: hello
2015-07-02T13:55:21Z Zhivago: The only special thing is that code-walkers should consider them irreducable.
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2015-07-02T13:57:45Z nyef: And there's a specific set of special operators that should be considered irreducible, and all implementation-defined extensions should have a macroexpansion as well so that codewalkers can still deal with them.
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2015-07-02T14:10:23Z Grisha: hi everyone
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2015-07-02T14:16:13Z Grisha: hi
2015-07-02T14:16:29Z Grisha: in a macro, I would like to make use of (type-of x), where x is a parameter of the macro
2015-07-02T14:16:45Z Grisha: it always gives me SYMBOL back
2015-07-02T14:16:56Z Grisha: because macro parameters are not evaluated
2015-07-02T14:17:07Z Grisha: before macroexpansion
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2015-07-02T14:17:13Z Grisha: is there a way to overcome it?
2015-07-02T14:20:16Z ggole: Types aren't known until runtime, in general. So no.
2015-07-02T14:20:31Z Grisha: too bad ;-(
2015-07-02T14:20:38Z ggole: You could generate code that makes use of type-of, though.
2015-07-02T14:21:27Z Grisha: the thing I'm trying to implement is something like appending (or rather unit'ing) a list to one of a struct's slots
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2015-07-02T14:22:30Z Grisha: ideally macro would understand what struct it is and (setf (structname-slotname) (union (structname-slotname) parameter))
2015-07-02T14:22:43Z Grisha: the question is how to get that structname
2015-07-02T14:22:54Z Grisha: given the parameter of the macro
2015-07-02T14:23:12Z ggole: Pass it as an argument?
2015-07-02T14:23:32Z Grisha: yep, would be a solution, thank you
2015-07-02T14:23:36Z jdz: Grisha: (pushnew parameter (structname-slotname))?
2015-07-02T14:23:50Z Grisha: jdz, yes
2015-07-02T14:24:07Z Grisha: I would like to derive structname automatically from parameter
2015-07-02T14:24:12Z Grisha: if it's at all possible
2015-07-02T14:24:22Z jdz: i think it's a bad idea
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2015-07-02T14:25:09Z Grisha: I see
2015-07-02T14:25:16Z jdz: being explicit about what your code should be doing is a good idea
2015-07-02T14:25:55Z jdz: that way you could add checks in your code to actually complain when wrong (unexpected) parameters are being used
2015-07-02T14:26:30Z Grisha: a good idea
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2015-07-02T14:27:06Z Grisha: i've got a couple of structures many slots of which consists of lists
2015-07-02T14:27:36Z Grisha: and I thought that automatizing addition of lists to those slots could be independet of the particular structure type
2015-07-02T14:27:44Z Grisha: *with many slots
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2015-07-02T14:37:37Z Grisha: thanks a lot!
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2015-07-02T15:13:53Z theos: does CL have inbuilt regex?
2015-07-02T15:14:18Z nyef: Not really. You might try cl-ppcre for regex.
2015-07-02T15:15:35Z theos: why wouldnt the standard include a powerful regex? is there something better than regex?
2015-07-02T15:16:01Z nyef: When was modern regex invented?
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2015-07-02T15:16:17Z Bike: no, it's just simple to do as a library. no need to make it a core thing.\
2015-07-02T15:16:43Z theos: but is it faster than awk etc?
2015-07-02T15:18:07Z nyef: While regex was known as far back as '56, and appeared in unix over the '70s, perl-style regex is from about '86.
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2015-07-02T15:18:51Z nyef: The CL standard is from '84, with the last revision in '94.
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2015-07-02T15:19:29Z theos: they should have included regex in '94 imo. no complaints
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2015-07-02T15:19:42Z Bike: i don't have performance metrics on hand but there's no reason for it to be slower than awk
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2015-07-02T15:20:46Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irregsexp/ here, this says it's faster than perl.
2015-07-02T15:21:15Z Bike: not perl regexes though, just regexes.
2015-07-02T15:21:16Z theos needs to learn to use repl in place of shell
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2015-07-02T15:29:59Z dim: Bike: awk's regexp are much faster than perl ones for kickers
2015-07-02T15:30:24Z dim: https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
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2015-07-02T15:37:52Z kami: Good afternoon.
2015-07-02T15:37:52Z grees: hey.. i'm trying to get started with cl-charms and tryed to execute the examples from github (https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms) but i always get "Error in curses call". I installed cl-charms with quicklisp
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2015-07-02T15:40:03Z DeadTrickster: neat sbcl error
2015-07-02T15:40:04Z DeadTrickster: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x00007fffc80146c0 ***
2015-07-02T15:40:04Z DeadTrickster: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 19626(tid 140737199404800):
2015-07-02T15:40:04Z DeadTrickster: SIGABRT received.
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2015-07-02T15:43:32Z mc40: grees: did you run in terminal or emacs?
2015-07-02T15:43:41Z grees: emacs
2015-07-02T15:43:49Z mc40: have to be in terminal
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2015-07-02T15:46:56Z grees: mc40: aaaah thank you! Hmm... so no nice and easy developement with emacs+slime an cl-charms ?
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2015-07-02T15:47:13Z nyef: DeadTrickster: That looks like something stomped or double-freed a malloc()ed block of memory.
2015-07-02T15:47:38Z p_l: grees: start your image in terminal, start swank-server manually inside, connect to it from slime
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2015-07-02T15:48:06Z DeadTrickster: nyef, this is actually the first time sbcl throws something like that at me
2015-07-02T15:48:36Z DeadTrickster: nyef, I just restarted my image
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2015-07-02T15:49:17Z grees: p_l: what do you exactly mean with "image" ?
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2015-07-02T15:50:08Z p_l: grees: start your lisp implementation (SBCL, CCL, etc.) in a terminal, then manually launch swank-server inside of it (don't recall the process from memory, you'll have to google), then attach to it from slime
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2015-07-02T15:50:59Z grees: p_l: ah i see! thx
2015-07-02T15:52:28Z brpocock: symbol-plist / “The use of setf should be avoided, since a symbol's property list is a global resource …” / but it's fair game to (setf (get 'mypackage:mything ',sym) ,val), no? That warning surprises me
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2015-07-02T15:55:03Z brpocock: or are symbol-plist names treated ignoring packages, so I must move carefully, I see now.
2015-07-02T15:55:45Z mc40: grees: I think this page has the steps you need http://www.cliki.net/SLIME-HOWTO
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2015-07-02T15:56:20Z grees: mc40: thanks allready followed the instructions :)
2015-07-02T15:56:42Z mc40: grees: ok cool
2015-07-02T15:57:52Z Xach: pjb: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-02/failure-report/com.informatimago.html#com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.test has new warnings
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2015-07-02T15:59:37Z grees: mc40: well it's not working as it should but now i know how it "should" be done :)
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2015-07-02T16:10:51Z DeadTrickster: Xach, https://github.com/xach/zs3/pull/17
2015-07-02T16:11:35Z Xach: DeadTrickster: Can you give more context? What prompted you (?) to make that?
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2015-07-02T16:12:31Z DeadTrickster: well as it was discussed here before chunga is flawed so we are using custom version where header names parsed as plain strings so bvalue return nil
2015-07-02T16:12:44Z Xach: We?
2015-07-02T16:12:45Z DeadTrickster: we have patched chunga and drakma
2015-07-02T16:12:55Z DeadTrickster: yep
2015-07-02T16:13:26Z DeadTrickster: why use bvalue when you have drakma:header-value anyway?
2015-07-02T16:13:37Z DeadTrickster: sounds irresponsible
2015-07-02T16:14:44Z Xach: I don't remember.
2015-07-02T16:15:55Z Xach: I suspect my code predates drakma:header-value.
2015-07-02T16:16:47Z DeadTrickster: anyway, please consider merging it. I hope it will be included in next QL release as well
2015-07-02T16:19:01Z Xach: No, thanks.
2015-07-02T16:19:13Z Xach: You should keep a private modified version of ZS3 too.
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2015-07-02T16:21:35Z DeadTrickster: private?
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2015-07-02T16:28:26Z tmtwd: um, if I have clisp and sbcl, how do I configure emacs to choose between them
2015-07-02T16:29:32Z Xach: tmtwd: you can choose with C-u M-x slime
2015-07-02T16:29:43Z Xach: tmtwd: you can also edit the slime-lisp-implementations variable
2015-07-02T16:30:11Z Xach: tmtwd: you can also choose which is the default connection with the slime-connections interface
2015-07-02T16:30:13Z tmtwd: Xach, in .init.el?
2015-07-02T16:30:43Z Xach: tmtwd: sure. i use ~/.emacs.
2015-07-02T16:30:53Z tmtwd: Xach, cool
2015-07-02T16:30:57Z tmtwd: thanks :)
2015-07-02T16:32:35Z tmtwd: mapcar in lisp is basically map in scheme right?
2015-07-02T16:32:54Z tmtwd: oh, and all common lisps follow the same specs right?
2015-07-02T16:33:22Z Xach: tmtwd: they aim to conform to the standard. they all fall short in different ways, some shorter than others. and they all add their own extras.
2015-07-02T16:33:35Z nyef: Might be interesting to see a new implementation for the '84 standard. (-:
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2015-07-02T16:33:56Z tmtwd: so which one most closely follows the spec?
2015-07-02T16:34:31Z nyef: Does it matter?
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2015-07-02T16:35:01Z Xach: tmtwd: most are pretty great at it. gcl falls pretty short. i wouldn't recommend it.
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2015-07-02T17:23:24Z tmtwd: how do I reload a lisp file in emacs after I've added new code?
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2015-07-02T17:27:56Z jackdaniel: tmtwd: C-c C-l
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2015-07-02T17:36:29Z aeth: pjb: You don't need to have a new version of Common Lisp to include reals, though. Can't that be implemented as a library?
2015-07-02T17:37:17Z aeth: You would just need to handle *, -, /, +, sqrt, etc.
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2015-07-02T17:49:33Z pjb: aeth: my argument was: "would it be easy to do, without reimplementing half of CL?"
2015-07-02T17:49:45Z pjb: aeth: I know the answer: no, it wouldn't.
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2015-07-02T17:51:47Z pjb: You would have to shadow all the mathematical functions in a REAL-CL package, so far so good (a little impractical though). But worse, real reals call for some kind of lazyness, which means that you will have to re-implement also the comparison operators, the output operators (print princ prin1 format write etc), and perhaps a few ore.
2015-07-02T17:51:48Z pjb: more
2015-07-02T17:52:18Z pjb: aeth: furthermore all this re-implementations or wrapping has the big advantage of being very not modular, and incompatible with other re-implementations and wrappings!
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2015-07-02T17:53:07Z pjb: Ie, it's a very bad situation, where we have to go metalinguistical to do it correctly, and therefore it should be included in a "superset of the Common Lisp language" standard.
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2015-07-02T17:58:32Z tmtwd: how do I reset the repl in slime
2015-07-02T17:58:42Z tmtwd: I did something and C-c won't won't
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2015-07-02T17:59:32Z failproofshark: tmtwd: slime-restart-inferior-lisp
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2015-07-02T18:01:34Z pjb: Xach: thanks. I wouldn't mind receiving automatic test reports by email (eg. the :maintainer or :author email in the defsystem).
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2015-07-02T18:02:06Z pjb: tmtwd: in a repl buffer, you can also type ,restart RET
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2015-07-02T18:06:31Z pjb: Xach: I've pushed a correction.
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2015-07-02T18:14:07Z aeth: pjb: well you can use some lazy library (clazy?) to get some of the work done if it can work
2015-07-02T18:14:45Z aeth: pjb: the output operators do need to be reimplemented no matter what extension you write (we were talking about this before in the context of adding units to numbers)
2015-07-02T18:14:57Z aeth: (well, by "we" I mean #lisp)
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2015-07-02T18:16:15Z pjb: I know. I've already done it. (cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.invoice.invoice).
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2015-07-02T18:18:27Z aeth: pjb: you're right about the incompatabilities. I think the best approach might be to make it a sort of pseudo-standard or something, but a library.
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2015-07-02T18:22:56Z pjb: a standard for a "superset of the Common Lisp standard" is something allowed by the Common Lisp standard. Why would you call it a pseudo-standard?
2015-07-02T18:23:02Z pjb: just write a CDR.
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2015-07-02T19:00:49Z aeth: pjb: Is CDR like SRFI?
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2015-07-02T19:01:36Z nyef: aeth: AIUI, SRFI was the inspiration for CDR.
2015-07-02T19:01:57Z aeth: ah
2015-07-02T19:02:10Z nyef: ... Or maybe it was PEP. Something like that.
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2015-07-02T19:08:24Z aeth: What I like about Python is that there's a PEP 0008. It does a lot for readability.
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2015-07-02T19:08:48Z aeth: (That's the style guide one.)
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2015-07-02T19:15:15Z contrapunctus: aeth: Lisp and Scheme have "readable s-expressions and sweet-expressions", what's the problem?
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2015-07-02T19:15:16Z contrapunctus: *runs*
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2015-07-02T19:24:24Z aeth: contrapunctus: I didn't get the joke
2015-07-02T19:25:05Z aeth: But what I mean, is that there's an authoritative thing for tools to look at when it comes to Python, so quite a lot of Python has the exact same feel to it. There's some of this in Lisp these days, too. If I see )))) on a line by itself I know it's really, really, really ancient code
2015-07-02T19:26:26Z nyef: aeth: Or there's a line-comment immediately before.
2015-07-02T19:26:52Z PuercoPop: aeth: he is referencing two projects that strive for 'readabilty' by replacing the parens
2015-07-02T19:26:56Z aeth: ah
2015-07-02T19:27:39Z Xach saw ") ; end if" once or twice
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2015-07-02T19:30:54Z contrapunctus: PuercoPop: making fun of, more like. ;)
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2015-07-02T19:31:10Z contrapunctus: aeth: I suppose something like gofmt for Lisp could be a good idea.
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2015-07-02T20:55:55Z Posterdati: Xach: at least I solved the problem!
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2015-07-02T20:56:08Z Xach: Posterdati: good!
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2015-07-02T21:14:59Z skrue: is anybody using mcclim? it seems dead
2015-07-02T21:15:29Z nyef: skrue: Apparently, there are at least two users.
2015-07-02T21:15:51Z skrue: do you get natiev style with it?
2015-07-02T21:16:28Z nyef: It's supposed to be at least theoretically possible, but I don't know that it happens.
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2015-07-02T21:38:05Z dilated_dinosaur: i definitely have a love/hate relationship with lisp
2015-07-02T21:39:00Z dilated_dinosaur: that is all
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2015-07-02T21:39:45Z Bike: okay
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2015-07-02T21:48:30Z solyd: hi. i'm considering using sbcl for a small 2d game. how hard is it? any good libraries for sound/graphics that will let me focus on the game logic?
2015-07-02T21:50:09Z nyef: solyd: There's apparently a #lispgames channel. Perhaps they'd know?
2015-07-02T21:50:28Z solyd: nyef: thanks for referring me, didn't know it existed
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2015-07-02T22:09:42Z brpocock: “Surely, it must exist.” Is there really no existing read-table for (Clojure's) EDN notation yet?
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2015-07-02T22:16:27Z dim: what's EDN notation?
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2015-07-02T22:20:41Z ecraven: the more I look into the slime/swank protocol, the more it seems like just calling arbitrary lisp code over the wire :-) rather hard to emulate with Scheme :-/
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2015-07-02T22:22:09Z dim: there's already a scheme equivalent
2015-07-02T22:22:15Z ecraven: not as nice as slime
2015-07-02T22:22:22Z ecraven: and MIT/GNU Scheme already has a mostly-working swank
2015-07-02T22:22:22Z brpocock: EDN is like Clojure's particular take on sexp's with [] for arrays and such.
2015-07-02T22:22:25Z dim: http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/ right?
2015-07-02T22:22:28Z ecraven: dim: yes
2015-07-02T22:22:52Z ecraven: but it is as well-documented as slime, and there is no mostly-working MIT/GNU Scheme implementation, as opposed to slime
2015-07-02T22:22:56Z dim: brpocock: something like what is to be found in http://cl21.org maybe?
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2015-07-02T22:23:28Z brpocock: Meaning I have Clojure-y EDN structures that I want to read in as sexp's and wasn't hoping to roll my own reader.
2015-07-02T22:23:37Z brpocock: But, que cera cera
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2015-07-02T22:27:04Z brpocock: and on that note, I departs shortly
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2015-07-02T23:19:11Z epl692: Hello
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2015-07-02T23:20:33Z epl692: Can someone help me with defmacro "stuff".
2015-07-02T23:21:53Z akkad: sure
2015-07-02T23:22:59Z pillton: epl692: Just ask your question. There is no need to get permission to ask.
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2015-07-02T23:26:28Z epl692: Alright, I am trying to make a macro that defines a function. Is that even a "thing", I mean I have heard the magic of lisp and code that writes code, I just am not sure how to do it quite yet.
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2015-07-02T23:28:12Z nyef: Oddly enough, the DEFUN construct that is used to define functions is itself a macro.
2015-07-02T23:28:22Z pillton: Yes you can. The word macro is short for macro function. There are no restrictions on what your macro function can call.
2015-07-02T23:28:43Z nyef: (defmacro my-defun (name arglist &body body) `(defun ,name ,arglist ,@body))
2015-07-02T23:29:45Z epl692: That kinda confuses me... I have seen that format before, but am very new with lisp
2015-07-02T23:29:47Z epl692: http://pastebin.com/9Fz4pbsd
2015-07-02T23:29:52Z epl692: is my code so far
2015-07-02T23:30:34Z pillton: I would read the macro chapter in the book "Practical Common Lisp."
2015-07-02T23:31:04Z epl692: okay, (oddly enough I just convinced my library to buy that book)
2015-07-02T23:31:18Z pillton: It is available online too.
2015-07-02T23:31:28Z epl692: I know
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2015-07-02T23:32:49Z pillton: You can create functions using functions too.
2015-07-02T23:32:52Z pillton: clhs fdefinition
2015-07-02T23:32:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm
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2015-07-02T23:33:43Z Bike: epl692: you don't need to quote or capitalize nil, just so you know.
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2015-07-02T23:34:16Z epl692: oh, didn't know that
2015-07-02T23:37:23Z epl692: Okay, so I tried to call a function to define a function with some parameters in it (basically what was in the comments of the pastebin I posted.) and it came back at me saying it had not heard of that variable.
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2015-07-02T23:40:00Z pillton: epl692: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150987
2015-07-02T23:42:01Z pillton: Well look at that. SBCL's print-object method for functions doesn't honour *print-case*.
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2015-07-02T23:43:55Z epl692: alright, so I think I need to alter my function that makes functions a bit, turn some of it into a lambda and what not.
2015-07-02T23:44:28Z oGMo: pillton: how is that?
2015-07-02T23:44:59Z epl692: thank you so much for your help!
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2015-07-02T23:45:17Z pillton: oGMo: Look at the paste. It has #
2015-07-02T23:46:59Z pillton: epl692: No worries. Macros are great. Just make sure you need them before you use them though.
2015-07-02T23:47:25Z oGMo: pillton: i'm not sure you're guaranteed it doesn't, #< means "unreadable" so i'd assume it can more or less do whatever it wants
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2015-07-02T23:48:12Z oGMo: though in my tests i'm seeing # so i dunno
2015-07-02T23:48:59Z oGMo: (i.e. since #< is there, "FUNCTION" isn't necessarily a symbol being printed)
2015-07-02T23:49:17Z pillton: oGMo: Yes. Yes. It is just a stylistic point. I doubt a patch would be applied anyhow given my failed attempt to remove PPRINT-NEWLINE from within PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT.
2015-07-02T23:50:20Z vydd_: I'm probably doing this in a wrong way, but how do I escape from double backquote and get quoted symbol? http://paste.lisp.org/display/150986 (3rd line ',,TYPE creates ',ELEMENT and I need 'ELEMENT)
2015-07-02T23:50:44Z oGMo: ,', probably
2015-07-02T23:50:45Z Bike: ,',thing, usually
2015-07-02T23:51:20Z vydd_: doesn't work, I get ,' and then in final expand sbcl tells me that element is not defined (so I guess it's the same as if it didn't have the quote)
2015-07-02T23:51:29Z oGMo: otherwise, you're substituting TYPE, then susbstituting whatever TYPE evaluated to (probably resulting in an error), then quoting that
2015-07-02T23:51:34Z oGMo: iirc
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2015-07-02T23:54:26Z oGMo: also ,@rest
2015-07-02T23:54:29Z oGMo: (probably)
2015-07-02T23:54:43Z oGMo: which is your issue, it looks like
2015-07-02T23:55:00Z vydd_: oh, wow. let me check that
2015-07-02T23:55:03Z oGMo: well that and it should be ,',
2015-07-02T23:55:31Z Bike: (list* 'make-instance ',type (attrs->init attrs)) :/
2015-07-02T23:59:08Z vydd_: firstly, oGMo was right in that I needed ,@ ; thanks! left it out sometime during rewrites, and of course, I wasn't even getting "element unbound" anymore
2015-07-02T23:59:24Z vydd_: Bike: I'll try that now
2015-07-02T23:59:39Z Bike: ogmo's right though probably
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2015-07-03T00:01:43Z vydd_: Well, he is in that I missed that, but it doesn't solve it completely. I only get a .."friendlier".. error.
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2015-07-03T00:22:55Z oGMo: vydd_: what are you getting now?
2015-07-03T00:23:18Z vydd_: Bike, oGMo: thanks! I used oGMo's fix and Bike's list idea to produce something not pretty, but functional
2015-07-03T00:23:45Z vydd_: oGMo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150988 that works :\
2015-07-03T00:24:39Z oGMo: that is possibly easier to read than double backquoting
2015-07-03T00:24:52Z vydd_: yeah
2015-07-03T00:24:56Z oGMo: although, list*
2015-07-03T00:25:44Z oGMo: (like Bike said originally, save an APPEND)
2015-07-03T00:26:10Z vydd_: that didn't work; I probably made a mistake somewhere then
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2015-07-03T00:29:14Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: I reverted the removal of those .asd files for the moment
2015-07-03T00:29:27Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: thanks. that's really helpful.
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2015-07-03T00:29:42Z Xach rebuilds everything
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2015-07-03T00:30:04Z fe[nl]ix: I sent a few pull requests, but most of the projects are old and look unmaintained
2015-07-03T00:30:07Z fe[nl]ix: hard to fix
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2015-07-03T00:34:28Z vydd_: ah, got it! http://paste.lisp.org/display/150990 needed another quote. thanks again!
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2015-07-03T02:55:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-07-03T03:00:11Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-07-03T03:00:46Z nyef: I think I finally have an angle on the color stuff in CLX.
2015-07-03T03:01:05Z nyef: But, at the same time, wow. The documentation is *terrible* there.
2015-07-03T03:01:14Z beach: What was the problem with it? Other than the fact that it is complicated?
2015-07-03T03:01:33Z nyef: The fact that it's undocumented, and that it is undocumented is undocumented.
2015-07-03T03:02:12Z Bike: i did find clx docs once, but it took me a while
2015-07-03T03:02:53Z nyef: Bike: The texinfo is in the manual/ directory in the clx sources.
2015-07-03T03:03:01Z beach: nyef: Maybe it is one of those cases where you have to go to the xlib documentation or to the protocol specification.
2015-07-03T03:03:08Z Bike: i'm not good at texinfo :(
2015-07-03T03:03:25Z nyef: No, it's one of those cases where you have to go to the source.
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2015-07-03T03:03:41Z beach: I use this one: http://bauhh.de/clxman/
2015-07-03T03:03:42Z nyef: And I say this, having the xlib documentation and the protocol specification open already.
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2015-07-03T03:03:55Z beach: http://bauhh.de/clxman/9_1_Colormaps_and_Colors.html
2015-07-03T03:04:25Z nyef: Find the VISUAL-INFO function in that mess. Good luck.
2015-07-03T03:05:26Z beach: There is an apropos on the on-line documentation.
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2015-07-03T03:05:40Z beach: http://bauhh.de/clxman/1_6_Data_Types.html#visual-info
2015-07-03T03:05:57Z beach: http://bauhh.de/clxman/doc-index.cgi?q=visual
2015-07-03T03:06:06Z Bike: why exactly did they decide to do "cardx" instead of (unsigned-byte x)
2015-07-03T03:06:36Z nyef: Bike: Because the protocol calls it card29.
2015-07-03T03:06:56Z nyef: beach: That finds the structure, not the function.
2015-07-03T03:07:09Z beach: Hmm.
2015-07-03T03:07:21Z nyef: I *did* mention that it was undocumented, right?
2015-07-03T03:07:29Z beach: You did.
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2015-07-03T03:11:47Z theos: morning
2015-07-03T03:11:55Z beach: Hello theos.
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2015-07-03T03:21:35Z beach: So, we definitely need better documentation for CLX.
2015-07-03T03:22:05Z beach: But I would also like to see a more CLOS-y version of CLX.
2015-07-03T03:23:07Z nyef: Yeah, rewriting the CLX documentation, and possibly writing a CLX-style set of xlib bindings (so that we get easier integration with an FFI-based OpenGL) is starting to appear on my project list.
2015-07-03T03:25:29Z nyef: I could do with a more generally modern CLX, with less of the pandering to the '84 standard, lisp machines, and so on.
2015-07-03T03:26:17Z beach: Yeah.
2015-07-03T03:26:45Z nyef: Holding the API consistent, once we figure out what the actual API is, makes sense, though.
2015-07-03T03:27:24Z nyef: Still, a possible project for later.
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2015-07-03T03:32:58Z nyef: Tomorrow, I'm hoping to file off a number of rough edges from my graphics stuff. Colored inks, proper keyword arguments to the graphics methods, and so on.
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2015-07-03T03:33:17Z beach: Excellent!
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2015-07-03T03:51:13Z nyef: Hrm... Maybe even indirect inks.
2015-07-03T03:51:52Z beach: drmeister: It will take a very long time to allocate 2^53 bytes.
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2015-07-03T03:57:10Z beach: I should probably write a very simple type inferencer. One that only recognizes FIXNUM, CONS, NULL, LIST, and T.
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2015-07-03T03:58:09Z nyef: Be careful, type system representation can be a nightmare.
2015-07-03T03:58:27Z beach: Yeah, that's why I want to do a simple thing first.
2015-07-03T03:58:42Z beach: Just to get immediate benefit without too much complexity.
2015-07-03T03:58:55Z Zhivago: That often leads to painting yourself into corners later.
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2015-07-03T03:59:16Z Zhivago: Still, the CL type system is pretty pathetic, so it might not be a big deal.
2015-07-03T03:59:40Z Zhivago: I'd suggest class inference rather than type inference might be what you're actually looking for.
2015-07-03T04:00:26Z nyef: The amount of trouble SBCL has had due to broken type representations...
2015-07-03T04:00:27Z beach: That won't help with FIXNUM.
2015-07-03T04:00:56Z Zhivago: It will if you set up a system class corresponding to FIXNUM.
2015-07-03T04:01:06Z Zhivago: Which is what you should be doing, anyhow.
2015-07-03T04:01:51Z beach: In Cleavir, I may not have a choice, since it is meant to be implementation-independent (or implementation-configurable).
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2015-07-03T04:02:26Z beach: You can of course say that I shouldn't be doing things like Cleavir.
2015-07-03T04:02:50Z Zhivago: Nah, just put it down as "types that really ought to be classes".
2015-07-03T04:03:20Z beach: In SICL, it's obviously a class.
2015-07-03T04:03:29Z Zhivago: The same nonsense applies to all of those array specializations as well.
2015-07-03T04:03:51Z nyef: A separate class for each specialization? What?
2015-07-03T04:04:06Z nyef: Does that apply to dimensionality as well?
2015-07-03T04:04:08Z beach: That's what I was planning for SICL.
2015-07-03T04:04:12Z Zhivago: The upgraded types correspond to implementation classes.
2015-07-03T04:04:17Z beach: not dimensions, no.
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2015-07-03T04:05:19Z Zhivago: if you limit your type inference to dealing with 'types that correspond to things that are implementation classes even if CL got it wrong', then it should be pretty straight-forward.
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2015-07-03T04:05:59Z beach: Sounds right.
2015-07-03T04:07:32Z beach: And that will likely get most of the benefits in terms of performance.
2015-07-03T04:08:08Z beach: ... simply because the instructions to be used correspond to those classes.
2015-07-03T04:08:19Z Zhivago: Yes.
2015-07-03T04:08:30Z Zhivago: Then you can add actual types on top at some later time.
2015-07-03T04:09:17Z beach: I tend to agree.
2015-07-03T04:10:50Z beach: I decided early on that there is no point in representing a type such as (OR (ARRAY DOUBLE-FLOAT) (ARRAY SINGLE-FLOAT))
2015-07-03T04:11:13Z beach: Because at least one test is required anyway to determine which one of the two it is.
2015-07-03T04:11:47Z beach: So, might as well make it T.
2015-07-03T04:12:00Z Bike: you could still do some optimizations with that, they're just harder and get less return
2015-07-03T04:12:07Z beach: Sure.
2015-07-03T04:12:27Z beach: People who care about performance will not have that kind of type uncertainty in their code anyway.
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2015-07-03T04:16:24Z nyef: They'll use a MACROLET to produce two copies of the code?
2015-07-03T04:17:01Z beach: No, they will decide on one or the other and stick a declaration in there.
2015-07-03T04:17:39Z nyef: And if they need to support both, they'll use a MACROLET to produce both versions.
2015-07-03T04:17:53Z beach: Something like that.
2015-07-03T04:18:24Z Bike: lexical deftype, where are you
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2015-07-03T04:21:40Z pillton: Bike: Yes yes. Where are you?!
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2015-07-03T04:29:43Z pillton: Lexical types, interpreted functions and a compiler. What a combination that would be. It would save so much effort.
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2015-07-03T04:48:10Z drmeister: beach: FIXNUMP is now inlining in Cleavir+Clasp
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2015-07-03T04:48:19Z beach: Excellent!
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2015-07-03T04:54:08Z beach: drmeister: In the second code example you gave me, are you saying that it prints EXPAND several times?
2015-07-03T04:54:22Z drmeister: Yes, here is the output from Clasp.
2015-07-03T04:54:24Z beach: drmeister: It is not doing that here.
2015-07-03T04:54:44Z beach: Here, EXPAND is printed only once.
2015-07-03T04:56:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Yn0UbO4M/
2015-07-03T04:56:50Z beach: Here, EXPAND is printed only once.
2015-07-03T04:56:50Z drmeister: When I COMPILE-FILE this source file:
2015-07-03T04:57:15Z drmeister: So it's on my end, or an interaction between Clasp and Cleavir
2015-07-03T04:57:20Z drmeister: tracing...
2015-07-03T04:57:42Z beach: It must be that your compile-file somehow calls generate-ast several times.
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2015-07-03T04:59:28Z drmeister: Tracing generate-ast
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2015-07-03T05:04:08Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/xJJuKfwX/
2015-07-03T05:04:48Z drmeister: Line 87 it calls GENERATE-AST with the EVAL-WHEN
2015-07-03T05:05:43Z drmeister: The 6 EXPAND's are all printed within the one call to GENERATE-AST
2015-07-03T05:06:10Z beach: drmeister: EVAL-WHEN processing involves calling EVAL.
2015-07-03T05:06:24Z beach: I think CLEAVIR-ENV:EVAL.
2015-07-03T05:06:45Z beach: You might have a look at what you are doing in your method on that function.
2015-07-03T05:07:25Z drmeister: Oh, you know what, I'm probably compiling whatever is being passed to EVAL
2015-07-03T05:08:01Z beach: I am doing that here. Yet, it only expands once here.
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2015-07-03T05:13:09Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/NDzuhUdm/
2015-07-03T05:13:57Z drmeister: I'll try and generate a backtrace every time it traces into CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:EVAL
2015-07-03T05:15:11Z drmeister: The problem is probably on my side. I'll dig deeper. I'll tell you how it turns out tomorrow. It's getting kind of late for me and I'm a bit jet lagged.
2015-07-03T05:15:23Z beach: OK.
2015-07-03T05:15:40Z drmeister: I'm also working on inlining fixnum-+
2015-07-03T05:15:53Z drmeister: Do you have a few minutes and I can describe what I'm doing?
2015-07-03T05:16:01Z beach: Yes.
2015-07-03T05:17:19Z drmeister: I'm working toward the final solution - currently it looks like this:
2015-07-03T05:17:19Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/SN7ToMBt/
2015-07-03T05:18:02Z drmeister: Then I look at the code for (cleavir-compile 'tadd '(lambda (x y) (test-two-arg-+ x y)))
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2015-07-03T05:19:21Z drmeister: Uh, that should be z on line 9 I think
2015-07-03T05:19:33Z beach: Yes, it should.
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2015-07-03T05:19:54Z drmeister: Fixed
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2015-07-03T05:20:26Z drmeister: Compiling...
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2015-07-03T05:21:37Z drmeister: When I evaluate this: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'tadd '(lambda (x y) (test-two-arg-+ x y)))
2015-07-03T05:21:43Z drmeister: I get this error:
2015-07-03T05:21:54Z drmeister: The slot CLEAVIR-AST::%TYPE-SPECIFIER in the object # is unbound.
2015-07-03T05:22:31Z beach: Hmm.
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2015-07-03T05:24:43Z beach: That slot is set by a call to REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE. Is it possible that you have a problem with that function?
2015-07-03T05:24:54Z beach: Oh, no wait.
2015-07-03T05:24:56Z beach: My bad.
2015-07-03T05:25:38Z beach: It is initialized by a call to make-typeq-ast.
2015-07-03T05:25:53Z beach: So I don't see how it can be unbound.
2015-07-03T05:26:10Z beach: Oh, hold on...
2015-07-03T05:27:41Z beach: No, false alarm
2015-07-03T05:27:53Z beach: I thought it might be that this particular slot does not get cloned.
2015-07-03T05:28:09Z beach: Let me make an experiment.
2015-07-03T05:28:40Z drmeister: No problem.
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2015-07-03T05:30:11Z beach: Yes, cloning that AST doesn't work.
2015-07-03T05:31:07Z beach: OK, that will give me something to do today.
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2015-07-03T05:32:16Z beach: Thanks for pointing that out.
2015-07-03T05:32:36Z drmeister: Why would cloning that AST be problematic?
2015-07-03T05:32:57Z beach: I am guessing because that slot doesn't contain an AST.
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2015-07-03T05:33:12Z beach: It ought to be the case that such slots are just copied over.
2015-07-03T05:33:39Z drmeister: Oh, because it contains the unevaluated type?
2015-07-03T05:33:54Z beach: Because it contains an S-expression rather than an AST.
2015-07-03T05:35:09Z drmeister: Ok, well I have stuff to do as well wrt macros.
2015-07-03T05:35:33Z beach: And you need to investigate why it expands several times.
2015-07-03T05:35:40Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-07-03T05:36:36Z beach: If it expands 4 or 5 times when it ought to do 1, then that could kill compilation performance.
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2015-07-03T05:38:36Z drmeister: We've talked about this before but I find this part really hard to think about When cleavir-environment:eval is invoked I use bclasp to compile the form if it is an atom and cclasp to compile it if it is a cons - does that sound appropriate?
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2015-07-03T05:39:20Z beach: Maybe so.
2015-07-03T05:39:26Z drmeister: Maybe that needs more explanation.
2015-07-03T05:39:36Z beach: It depends on other things as well.
2015-07-03T05:39:48Z beach: It would not be enough for SICL for instance.
2015-07-03T05:40:04Z drmeister: Interesting - please go on.
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2015-07-03T05:40:17Z beach: I have compound forms for which invoking the compiler would make it go into an infinite computation.
2015-07-03T05:40:30Z beach: So I need to handle those specially as well.
2015-07-03T05:41:01Z drmeister: What sort of forms would do that?
2015-07-03T05:41:27Z beach: (sicl-global-environment:global-environment) for instance.
2015-07-03T05:41:59Z beach: or (sicl-global-environment:function-cell 'sicl-global-environment:function-cell)
2015-07-03T05:42:46Z aap_ is now known as aap
2015-07-03T05:42:51Z drmeister: I don't know how you think about or see that? It's impenetrable to me. Do you have any insight you could share?
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2015-07-03T05:43:21Z beach: No, you would have to understand how SICL first-class global environments work in order to understand that.
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2015-07-03T05:44:16Z drmeister: Ok - I can see that. I was thinking in terms of what would I be looking for in cleavir+clasp that would produce the same problem. Although - I'm not encountering infinite loops.
2015-07-03T05:44:17Z beach: It just so happens that compiling one of those forms would generate a request to evaluate the same form again, so it would go into an infinite computation.
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2015-07-03T05:44:52Z beach: That is why I don't think your problem is related to whether you call the compiler or the bclasp evaluator.
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2015-07-03T05:45:26Z drmeister: When I trace cleavir-environment:eval I don't see nested evals.
2015-07-03T05:45:36Z beach: Right.
2015-07-03T05:45:44Z beach: It appears it is called several times.
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2015-07-03T05:46:49Z drmeister: I think if I can print a backtrace every time cleavir-environment:eval then I should be able to track down the problem.
2015-07-03T05:47:15Z beach: Yeah, you need to find out from what function EVAL is called.
2015-07-03T05:48:53Z beach: Or, you can put a (break) in your method on EVAL.
2015-07-03T05:49:02Z beach: And look at the backtrace manually.
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2015-07-03T05:53:25Z beach: I think I know why cloning is not working. I'll try to fix it today.
2015-07-03T05:55:07Z wobh: ugh.
2015-07-03T05:55:59Z wobh: I want a memoized slot, but it's for what's currently a struct. I think it's gotta be a class.
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2015-07-03T05:59:44Z drmeister: beach: Thank you
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2015-07-03T06:17:58Z beach: drmeister: You can try it now.
2015-07-03T06:18:05Z beach: I think I fixed the cloning problem.
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2015-07-03T06:19:06Z drmeister: I'll try it in a few minutes - just finishing a report
2015-07-03T06:19:27Z beach: Sure, no rush.
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2015-07-03T06:19:34Z beach: Just saying.
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2015-07-03T06:52:07Z lewis1711: has anybody tried using s-expressions for algebra?
2015-07-03T06:52:31Z beach: What kind of algebra?
2015-07-03T06:53:46Z beach: I think the traditional AI programs doing math stuff use s-expressions. I forget what they were called now. "tutor" maybe?
2015-07-03T06:54:08Z beach: Also, symbolic derivation typically uses s-expressions.
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2015-07-03T06:54:30Z lewis1711: beach, just in general. symbolic stuff. I mean by hand. right now I am trying to verify that i^2 = -1, given the definition of complex number multiplication
2015-07-03T06:55:13Z beach: You are much better off with s-expressions for any type of symbolic manipulation than you are with traditional math notation, for sure.
2015-07-03T06:55:54Z lewis1711: for a CAS, I would agree. I am struggling a bit to do it myself though. could be a lack of practice, but I consider myself "fluent" in s-expressions usually
2015-07-03T06:57:19Z beach: The advantage of s-expressions when you do it "by hand" is that you can usually write an Emacs macro to do some tedious simplification or other manipulation.
2015-07-03T06:58:09Z beach: That way, you are also more confident that you made fewer mistakes.
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2015-07-03T07:00:52Z lewis1711: well that's not really by hand. that's the machine parsing s-expressions
2015-07-03T07:01:15Z beach: Whatever.
2015-07-03T07:02:24Z beach: Then no, whatever you do, don't use S-expressions.
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2015-07-03T07:09:27Z lewis1711: polish notation works OK. ie, assume fixed arity, not LISP where any distributive function has variable arity
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2015-07-03T07:13:31Z beach: Lisp uses polish notation.
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2015-07-03T07:22:12Z theos: did the poles invent lisp?
2015-07-03T07:22:49Z antoszka: AFAIR McCarthy was *not* a Pole. :)
2015-07-03T07:22:55Z lewis1711: beach, right, I mean parens free polish notation (fixed arity functions)
2015-07-03T07:31:52Z beach: OK, time to get to work!
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2015-07-03T07:35:45Z akkad: is defining env vars from inside lisp in the spec?
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2015-07-03T07:40:01Z akkad: noo
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2015-07-03T07:46:34Z coetry: how do you all see lisp in relation to the web assembly announcement?
2015-07-03T07:47:06Z coetry: seems like a huge step forward for all progamming languages, a wide door has been opened, pandora's box maybe?
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2015-07-03T07:47:44Z theos: what web assembly announcement?
2015-07-03T07:48:22Z coetry: https://medium.com/javascript-scene/what-is-webassembly-the-dawn-of-a-new-era-61256ec5a8f6
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2015-07-03T07:49:06Z Baggers: coetry: does seem pretty cool. having a standard that will (thanks to browser wars) get implemented fairly well is exciting.
2015-07-03T07:49:08Z coetry: basically, the web is getting native byte code and javascript no longer rules
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2015-07-03T07:49:49Z coetry: yeah, it's language agnostic which is the beautiful part, i truly see this as a point of rejoicing for all language communities (those who whish to hack the web)
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2015-07-03T07:50:42Z coetry: but now parenscript is no longer necessary, or atleast it shouldn't target javascript anymore. A fork of the project should target wasm
2015-07-03T07:50:58Z coetry: Huge performance gains in execution and coding
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2015-07-03T07:52:19Z coetry: Here are the design docs for those interested: https://github.com/WebAssembly/design
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2015-07-03T07:52:43Z theos: oh assembly language for the web! i always wanted that!
2015-07-03T07:55:07Z coetry: theos, yeah man they are talking about created an LLVM backend, this has massive potential
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2015-07-03T08:06:17Z pjb: minion: memo for coetry: I'm prepared, my code is AGPL3.
2015-07-03T08:06:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell coetry when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-07-03T08:40:28Z jackdaniel: webdev is perfect implementation of lisp idea - like lisp puts language in the language, webdev implement operating system in the operating system ;-)
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2015-07-03T08:45:21Z akkad: well the real power is wasm on the server side, once browsers are found to be too slow
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2015-07-03T08:45:49Z akkad: flashbacks to the comments made about java applets
2015-07-03T08:46:10Z jackdaniel: why do you need wasm to utilize *anything* on server side?
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2015-07-03T08:48:09Z akkad: ^^ re: javascript, java
2015-07-03T08:48:35Z akkad: browser tech always ends up on server side
2015-07-03T08:48:40Z akkad: e.g. mongodb
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2015-07-03T09:06:57Z knobo: When I post a file to caveman2 how do I get the content of the file?
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2015-07-03T09:10:25Z kamentomov: I'm trying to find out why the following print form runs at run time. Your help will be appreciated. (defmacro rev-setq (val var) (print "ran") `(setq ,var ,val))
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2015-07-03T09:12:28Z H4ns: kamentomov: it does not, from visual inspection.
2015-07-03T09:12:39Z H4ns: kamentomov: provide a full example on paste.lisp.org
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2015-07-03T09:14:52Z kamentomov: Thanks a lot, H4ns. That's the whole thing beside the test call (let (a) (rev-setq 4 a) a). I put in a file, I compiled it and executed it in the REPL. How can I test it properly?
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2015-07-03T09:15:38Z H4ns: how do you "execute a file in the repl"?
2015-07-03T09:16:01Z kamentomov: with (let (a) (rev-setq 4 a) a)
2015-07-03T09:16:11Z kamentomov: and it prints the string
2015-07-03T09:16:15Z H4ns: of course.
2015-07-03T09:16:32Z H4ns: your expression is first macroexpanded, then evaluated
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2015-07-03T09:16:53Z kamentomov: how to get it not to print it? I need to demo it to someone
2015-07-03T09:17:06Z H4ns: what is "it" that you want to demonstrate?
2015-07-03T09:17:21Z kamentomov: that it does not execute the print in run time
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2015-07-03T09:17:57Z H4ns: put (defun x (let (a) (rev-setq 4 a) a)) into the file, then call (x) on the repl
2015-07-03T09:18:17Z H4ns: you will see the print be executed when you compile the file, but not when you call x
2015-07-03T09:18:36Z kamentomov: thanks a LOT
2015-07-03T09:18:45Z H4ns: anything entered in the repl will first be read, then evaluated, then printed. note how "read" is part of REPL
2015-07-03T09:18:56Z kamentomov: right
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2015-07-03T09:35:50Z knobo: This was quite difficult to find out of.
2015-07-03T09:36:05Z knobo: The caveman2 documentation does not say anything about posting files
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2015-07-03T09:38:37Z knobo: It's probably easy..
2015-07-03T09:38:42Z akkad: welcome to lisp projects :P
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2015-07-03T09:39:03Z knobo: Someting like adding a -filecontents to the variable...
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2015-07-03T09:39:32Z knobo: akkad: but, usualy it's easy to read it from the source.
2015-07-03T09:39:41Z knobo: but not in this case.
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2015-07-03T09:46:15Z knobo: hunchentoot has the post-parameter that tells where the file was stored.
2015-07-03T09:46:58Z knobo: Maybe I have to mix in a hunchentoot handler, if it is possible.
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2015-07-03T10:07:19Z pjb: H4ns: that's not the point, since the macroexpansion will occur during EVAL!
2015-07-03T10:07:36Z pjb: Since eval is passed source code (a sexp), by the REPL, it will have two choices:
2015-07-03T10:07:50Z pjb: either interpret it, therefore macroexpand the macro while interpreting it, at "run-time".
2015-07-03T10:08:22Z pjb: or put it in a lambda form, compile it, and call it, which means that it will macroexpand during compilation and then run it. But both are still done inside EVAL.
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2015-07-03T10:18:23Z knobo: If I have a flexi-streams::vector-input-stream, how do I get the whole content of the stream?
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2015-07-03T10:19:09Z pjb: I'd try: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.stream:contents-from-stream stream)
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2015-07-03T10:19:15Z pjb: if it's a STREAM, it should work.
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2015-07-03T10:21:54Z knobo: is not of type ...
2015-07-03T10:22:29Z pjb: I thought flexi-stream used gray-streams…
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2015-07-03T10:23:04Z pjb: Perhaps you could make a derived work of com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.stream:contents-from-stream for flexi-streams?
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2015-07-03T10:23:15Z dilated_dinosaur: I made a thing, any feedback welcome https://github.com/ivankocienski/with-struct
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2015-07-03T10:23:39Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: what about with-accessors?
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2015-07-03T10:24:14Z dilated_dinosaur: hmm- isn't that like with-slots?
2015-07-03T10:25:01Z dilated_dinosaur: and uses CLOS foo to work its magic
2015-07-03T10:25:07Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: how do you deal with (defstruct (point (:conc-name pt-)) x y) ?
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2015-07-03T10:26:21Z dilated_dinosaur: its not a very smart macro- so you would just supply 'struct name' and 'thing you want aliased in struct' as arguments
2015-07-03T10:26:35Z dilated_dinosaur: and it just blindly tries to substitute it
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2015-07-03T10:27:06Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: my point is that with structures, it's useless to know the type of the structure to find out the name of the accessors.
2015-07-03T10:27:22Z pjb: That's why in with-accessors, you just give the name of the accessors.
2015-07-03T10:28:33Z dilated_dinosaur: yeah, but with-accessors then uses CLOS to do some introspection at run time to tie the pieces together
2015-07-03T10:29:35Z dilated_dinosaur: this macro is simply taking an argument 'structure' and glueing it to 'struct name'. there is no intelligent type determination going on
2015-07-03T10:30:39Z dilated_dinosaur: (it was also an excuse for me to scratch an itch and practice macro foo)
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2015-07-03T10:36:58Z knobo: FLEXI-STREAM inherits TRIVIAL-GRAY-STREAM-MIXIN
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2015-07-03T10:38:06Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: with-accessors is not specified to use CLOS. Just symbol-macrolet.
2015-07-03T10:38:16Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: you are confusing with with-slots.
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2015-07-03T10:40:08Z pjb: dilated_dinosaur: you could scratch more, and having a define-structure macro that would record the arguments and generated accessor names, to be used by your with-struct macro. This would teach you how to pass information from the compilation environment to the compilation environment, and from the compilation environment to the run-time environment (possibly thru a load time). This is not entirely trivial, and a good subject in
2015-07-03T10:40:08Z pjb: macro writing to learn ;-)
2015-07-03T10:40:41Z pjb: knobo: why is flexi-streams::vector-input-stream not exported?
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2015-07-03T10:42:20Z knobo: I don't know.
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2015-07-03T10:43:22Z knobo: I'm cheating now, and doing (slot-value f 'flexi-streams::vector)
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2015-07-03T10:43:43Z knobo: I can se that the length of the vector is equal to the file I upleaded
2015-07-03T10:44:04Z knobo: But when I write it out, image-viewers does not recoginze it
2015-07-03T10:44:23Z knobo: does it have to do with the order of the bytes?
2015-07-03T10:44:59Z pjb: I've pushed a patch to make it work: (with-input-from-sequence (in #(1 2 3 4 5)) (contents-from-stream in)) --> #(1 2 3 4 5)
2015-07-03T10:45:56Z pjb: Just replace the first two lines of the body with:
2015-07-03T10:45:56Z pjb: (let ((dirs (and (typep stream 'file-stream)
2015-07-03T10:45:56Z pjb: (pathname-directory (pathname stream)))))
2015-07-03T10:45:56Z pjb: (if (and dirs
2015-07-03T10:45:59Z pjb:
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2015-07-03T10:48:17Z jackdaniel: it's nice to discover such perls in ecl. JG after 13.5.1 implemented abstract machine type, so ecl can generate C code for cross-compilation with nice and portable way
2015-07-03T10:48:45Z jackdaniel: s/perls/pearls/ I think
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2015-07-03T11:16:36Z knobo: There is something buggy about this, because the stream does not contain the file. it contains the whole multipart document
2015-07-03T11:16:42Z knobo: But it's size is the same as the file
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2015-07-03T11:24:22Z Xach: pjb: i do not see any correction in com.informatimago's warning i mentioned earlier
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2015-07-03T11:29:06Z knobo: so, when I am in sldb, can I jump to the definition of a method?
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2015-07-03T11:30:44Z loke: knobo: yes. press v
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2015-07-03T11:39:12Z dilated_dinosaur: pjb: hmm- interesting. thanks. will keep that in mind if and when my needs need satisfying again ;)
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2015-07-03T11:56:28Z knobo: Would it be possible to jump from the sldb to trace the function (step by step)?
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2015-07-03T12:42:53Z oleo: hello :)
2015-07-03T12:43:02Z pjb: holeo!
2015-07-03T12:43:12Z knobo: hello
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2015-07-03T13:07:04Z jackdaniel: what is ~? directive in format?
2015-07-03T13:07:19Z pjb: use a format-control string provided as argument.
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2015-07-03T13:07:25Z jackdaniel: oh, thanks
2015-07-03T13:08:11Z pjb: (format nil "~A ~?~%" (get-universal-time) "error: ~A ~A" '("Example." 42)) --> "3644917682 error: Example. 42"
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2015-07-03T13:42:07Z flip214: we should have a lisp bot here that evaluates such expressions
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2015-07-03T13:42:38Z jackdaniel: ,eval nil
2015-07-03T13:42:40Z jackdaniel: hm
2015-07-03T13:43:38Z Vityok: flip214: how do you make sure that somebody will not feed it with suicidal code?
2015-07-03T13:43:47Z Vityok: akin to "rm -Rf /" or similar
2015-07-03T13:44:36Z pjb: flip214: no need. Just type C-x C-e
2015-07-03T13:44:36Z flip214: Vityok: yeah, that's the question, right? well, a chroot and similar things can help a lot ... and perhaps being limited to 200 characters, too
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2015-07-03T13:44:56Z pjb: flip214: of course, bind C-x C-e to slime-eval-last-expression in erc buffers.
2015-07-03T13:44:59Z flip214: pjb: sorry, doesn't work in my IRC client.
2015-07-03T13:45:13Z pjb: that's your problem for choosing bad irc clients.
2015-07-03T13:45:30Z flip214: and even if it did, it's about showing the output *here*, not for me locally. Locally I'll just use ",eb".
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2015-07-03T13:45:59Z pjb: - I want a million dollars. - ok, do this. - I don't want to do this, I want to do that. Do I get my million dollars?
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2015-07-03T13:46:51Z flip214: - I want a million. - ok, here you are. - I didn't want dinars, I wanted dollars - what, isn't that good enough?
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2015-07-03T13:47:38Z jackdaniel: we have to wait for cleavir i suppose and use global environment which will prevent malicious usages :)
2015-07-03T13:48:01Z Shinmera: Even with FCGE you can just start a bunch of calculation intensive infinite loops to bog the host down.
2015-07-03T13:48:11Z Shinmera: Whatever you do, eval bots are stupid idea.
2015-07-03T13:48:38Z jackdaniel: I'd disagree, fact you can break a tool doesn't mean mere existance of it is a bad idea
2015-07-03T13:48:44Z oleo: a testing channel with eval bots would be ok tho.....
2015-07-03T13:48:50Z oleo: not here!
2015-07-03T13:48:51Z pjb: Furthermore, somebody already implemented one. Just locate it, clone the git repo, and have a server run it (in its own channel).
2015-07-03T13:49:08Z oleo: it has to be secured too ofc.....
2015-07-03T13:49:09Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: It is when you expose it to the internet
2015-07-03T13:49:12Z jackdaniel: on lisp-pl there is ood, which does eval for privigiled users (in sandbox)
2015-07-03T13:49:18Z oleo: ah
2015-07-03T13:49:23Z jackdaniel: who° :D
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2015-07-03T13:49:56Z jackdaniel: it's based on informatigo as far as I recall
2015-07-03T13:50:08Z jackdaniel: he's°
2015-07-03T13:50:45Z jackdaniel: and regarding infinite loops, it has timeout for any arbitrary expression
2015-07-03T13:51:29Z Shinmera: Doesn't mean you can't easily bog down the host
2015-07-03T13:51:59Z pjb: Doesn't mean you can't easily bog down ANY host.
2015-07-03T13:52:12Z jackdaniel: doesn't mean you can do it easily either
2015-07-03T13:52:30Z jackdaniel: this discussion leads nowhere, /me hides in his lamp
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2015-07-03T16:01:08Z dtw: oleo, https://github.com/tlikonen/cl-eval-bot
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2015-07-03T16:48:26Z jackdaniel: epic issue (first post) ^_^ https://github.com/tlikonen/cl-eval-bot/issues/1
2015-07-03T16:49:05Z jackdaniel: so "lispy" in sense of "being" smarter (disreagarding content)
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2015-07-03T16:55:52Z pjb: jackdaniel: this first issue is rather interesting, given that almost everybody is dead wrong about how the GPL/AGPL contaminates. The operator is actually "derived work", and this is not a technical question. You could easily create a derived work without linking directly (eg. just by using a HTTP or IRC protocol to remotely connect and make use of the software).
2015-07-03T16:56:47Z pjb: Linking in one way or another can always circumvented, and the tribunal never used those technical arguments to determine, within the Copyright Law, what was derived work.
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2015-07-03T16:57:44Z pjb: Also, notice that the mere translation of the work is definitely considered derived work (eg. take a novel, translate it from English to French, blam! derived work, you can distribute it only as the copyright owner permits and under the conditions he will.
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2015-07-03T16:58:26Z pjb: Take a program written in lisp, rewrite it in C or Ruby, and blam! no linking involved, just a translation, and you've got a derived work that essentially belongs to the original copyright owner.
2015-07-03T16:58:46Z jackdaniel: pjb: I've got nothing against agpl, what I've found amusing is his arrogance by telling author, that he *should* change license he took, because he is obviously *wrong* and doesn't know what he *really* wants
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2015-07-03T17:00:08Z pjb: Unfortunately, what he says is much more often true of those who use non GPL licenses. AICS, people more often use BSD or MIT automatically without thinking about the consequences.
2015-07-03T17:00:38Z jackdaniel: aics?
2015-07-03T17:00:45Z jackdaniel: as I can see?
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2015-07-03T17:01:28Z pjb: yes.
2015-07-03T17:01:43Z jackdaniel: thanks, urbandictionary decided to not help me this time :p
2015-07-03T17:01:53Z jackdaniel: s/to not/not to/
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2015-07-03T17:06:18Z enedil greets
2015-07-03T17:06:28Z jackdaniel: enedil: hi o/
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2015-07-03T17:25:00Z pie_: why isnt lisp named lithp?
2015-07-03T17:25:18Z pjb: pie_: because McCarthy wasn't a queer.
2015-07-03T17:26:32Z jackdaniel: lisph or die
2015-07-03T17:26:42Z pie_: pronounced lisf?
2015-07-03T17:26:50Z pie_: ghoti
2015-07-03T17:27:39Z jackdaniel: I imagine how dissapointed must be lisping people when they search yt for their kind and see some IT tutorials :D
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2015-07-03T17:28:51Z pjb: jackdaniel: Now, how many years have you been studing English before you knew that "lisp" wasn't a programming language?
2015-07-03T17:29:07Z shortsightedsid: is there a function in CCL that returns the fasl extension used on that platform?
2015-07-03T17:29:22Z pjb: For me, that must have been more than 25 years! And I knew about lisp for about 22 then!
2015-07-03T17:29:33Z shortsightedsid: http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter3.1.html documents the list but I was hoping there's a function I can use
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2015-07-03T17:31:11Z pjb: (ccl::backend-target-fasl-pathname target-backend)
2015-07-03T17:31:40Z pjb: (ccl::backend-target-fasl-pathname ccl::*target-backend*) --> #P".lx64fsl"
2015-07-03T17:31:41Z jackdaniel: pjb: to be honest I know that lisp is programming language for 6 years, while that it is speaking problem for 16
2015-07-03T17:31:52Z shortsightedsid: Ah! Thanks...
2015-07-03T17:31:59Z pjb: jackdaniel: So you're a latecomer :-)
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2015-07-03T17:32:27Z jackdaniel: obviously
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2015-07-03T17:33:59Z pjb: Even in French (my native language), I kept writing some words strangely for quite a few years because of programming. In LSE, loops are written POUR I<-1 JUSQUA 2 … so I used to write jusqua instead of jusqu'à :-)
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2015-07-03T17:34:42Z remi`bd: pjb: where are you lisping from?
2015-07-03T17:34:54Z pjb: Currently from Issy Les Moulineaux, near Paris.
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2015-07-03T17:35:15Z remi`bd: I’m in Clermont-Ferrand
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2015-07-03T17:35:24Z pjb: shortsightedsid: it was easily found by typing M-. on compile-file ;-)
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2015-07-03T17:46:00Z PuercoPop: is there some that inhibits interactive restarts from popping up?
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2015-07-03T17:50:37Z jackdaniel: handler-bind which will intercept condition
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2015-07-03T17:52:21Z PuercoPop: I'm trying to figure out why I get a restart that queries *query-io* on slime but not when on StumpWM.
2015-07-03T17:52:39Z PuercoPop: so there may be a 'global' handler-bind?
2015-07-03T17:53:08Z Bike: are you sure it doesn't? stumpwm might bind query io to /dev/null or something.
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2015-07-03T17:53:35Z Bike: actually, iirc stumpwm has a pretty top-level error handler that doesn't offer restarts.
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2015-07-03T18:00:06Z PuercoPop: Bike: I get Caught 'error opening ...' at the top level. Please report this. The error I get is precisely the one I want to handle (Wrong battery name)
2015-07-03T18:00:44Z Bike: have you asked #stumpwm?
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2015-07-03T18:04:19Z PuercoPop: No, will do.
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2015-07-03T21:08:50Z aeth: Lisp's motto is apparently "Made with secret alien technology." Maybe there should be secret-alien- package names instead of just so many cl-
2015-07-03T21:08:58Z aeth: Unless that's trademarked even though the logo is public domain?
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2015-07-03T21:13:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth, If people did that it wouldn't be a secret.
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2015-07-03T22:03:26Z ralt: hi
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2015-07-03T22:03:51Z oleo: hello
2015-07-03T22:04:17Z ralt: I have a type error I don't understand
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2015-07-03T22:04:40Z ralt: I'm passing a (vector (unsigned-byte 8)), and I get a type error saying "not a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*))"
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2015-07-03T22:05:14Z ralt: I don't see why it's not working... I thought vector was a subtype of simple-array
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2015-07-03T22:06:28Z Shinmera: No
2015-07-03T22:06:50Z Shinmera: http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/
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2015-07-03T22:07:40Z ralt: ah, subtype of simple-vector, which simple-array is also.
2015-07-03T22:07:42Z ralt: damn.
2015-07-03T22:07:45Z ralt: well, thanks
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2015-07-03T22:58:30Z kristof: Can anyone think of a situation where this in this list ((expr) a b c), expr should be evaluated, but doesn't have to be a function?
2015-07-03T22:59:40Z kristof: Never mind, I thought of one, and the question wasn't thought out anyway.
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2015-07-04T01:44:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-07-04T01:45:05Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-07-04T01:57:16Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach
2015-07-04T02:00:48Z drmeister: Whoah beach - you are up early.
2015-07-04T02:01:10Z beach: Yeah, too many ideas in my head to sleep longer.
2015-07-04T02:01:15Z beach: It happens.
2015-07-04T02:02:02Z drmeister: My mind is buzzing as well. I've inlined integer addition and <
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2015-07-04T02:02:09Z drmeister: Everything is working!
2015-07-04T02:02:17Z beach: Great.
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2015-07-04T02:02:37Z nyef: drmeister: Congratulations.
2015-07-04T02:02:40Z drmeister: The llvm intrinsic for addition with overflow detection is just fine.
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2015-07-04T02:02:51Z beach: Yeah, it looks that way.
2015-07-04T02:02:59Z beach: Generates the optimal code.
2015-07-04T02:03:10Z drmeister: Yes yes!
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2015-07-04T02:03:32Z drmeister: I'm looking for a good integer algorithm to kick the tires of all this inlining.
2015-07-04T02:03:51Z Bike: algorithm for what now?
2015-07-04T02:03:59Z nyef: Go for a small-scale FIB?
2015-07-04T02:04:05Z drmeister: Sieve of Eratosthenes?
2015-07-04T02:04:12Z drmeister: I'm just reading about it.
2015-07-04T02:04:14Z nyef: That'd've been my second choice, yes.
2015-07-04T02:04:16Z Bike: oh, just something to test with?
2015-07-04T02:04:20Z drmeister: What's small-scale FIB?
2015-07-04T02:04:27Z nyef: Fibonacci sequence.
2015-07-04T02:04:55Z drmeister: nyef: That was my first choice - how would you formulate it?
2015-07-04T02:05:08Z Bike: just the dumb exponential blowup way?
2015-07-04T02:05:12Z nyef: Any old way?
2015-07-04T02:05:36Z drmeister: Like what though? Time how long it takes to calculate the N'th number in the sequence M times?
2015-07-04T02:06:01Z Bike: well, sure. you just want to profile some increase from the inlining, right?
2015-07-04T02:06:56Z Bike: (defun fib (n) (cond ((zerop n) 0) ((= n 1) 1) (t (+ (fib (- n 2)) (fib (- n 1)))))), run it a bunch of times on high n, you'll get some disparate times
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2015-07-04T02:07:33Z drmeister: I need to translate that into an iterative, imperative version.
2015-07-04T02:07:36Z beach: It should remain a fixnum though.
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2015-07-04T02:08:04Z drmeister: Yes, it needs to remain a fixnum
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2015-07-04T02:08:33Z Bike: (defun fib (n) (loop for a = 0 then b for b = 1 then (+ a b) repeat n finally (return a))), or something
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2015-07-04T02:08:55Z Bike: hm, nope.
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2015-07-04T02:10:07Z Bike: wow that's really wrong actually, 'm out of it.
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2015-07-04T02:10:43Z drmeister: It's ok, I kind of know what I'm looking for.
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2015-07-04T02:14:00Z Bike: oh, it wasn't that wrong, you just need to have a parallel set.
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2015-07-04T02:23:36Z drmeister: I have to go to dinner - but here's what I've got right now.
2015-07-04T02:23:38Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/UkbQevfH/
2015-07-04T02:24:02Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/fzYdL2QB/mir.pdf
2015-07-04T02:24:26Z Bike: you use aux, like, infinitely times more often than anything i've seen
2015-07-04T02:24:50Z drmeister: I was going to highlight the "fast-path" to demonstrate that there are no funcall's in it - but I need to go to dinner.
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2015-07-04T02:25:21Z Bike: it's amazing how fast these things get impossible to read
2015-07-04T02:25:33Z drmeister: beach: You've done a tremendous job here!
2015-07-04T02:25:33Z beach: You got that right.
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2015-07-04T02:25:40Z beach: drmeister: Oh, thank you!
2015-07-04T02:25:50Z drmeister: Fiddle faddle, this stuff is poetry!
2015-07-04T02:26:09Z Bike: well, it's kind of pretty, but on the other hand it took me like two minutes to find the loop
2015-07-04T02:26:21Z beach: Bike: It works OK for very small examples.
2015-07-04T02:26:35Z Bike: right, by "fast" i meant like, as you get it more complicated.
2015-07-04T02:26:36Z beach: Bike: And it is way better than no graphic representation at all.
2015-07-04T02:26:45Z wobh: Whatever it is, it sounds more exciting than what I've been working on.
2015-07-04T02:26:47Z beach: Yeah, just agreeing with you.
2015-07-04T02:26:56Z Bike: reading textual IR sucks, that's for sure
2015-07-04T02:27:14Z wobh: https://github.com/wobh/cl-cookbook
2015-07-04T02:27:30Z wobh: http://wobh.github.io/cl-cookbook/
2015-07-04T02:27:31Z beach: Bike: I can imagine that. I decided early on I didn't particularly want to do that.
2015-07-04T02:28:08Z wobh: pjb: thank you for suggesting reposurgeon.
2015-07-04T02:28:37Z wobh: It took a lot more setup than it should have, but once it worked, it worked.
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2015-07-04T02:28:49Z Bike: okay, i definitely found one loop with no funcalls in it!
2015-07-04T02:28:52Z beach: wobh: Great!
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2015-07-04T02:29:10Z wobh: First issue, remove references to sourceforge.
2015-07-04T02:30:21Z Bike: i wonder, do you have graph traversal stuff? you could write something to highlight all loops pretty easily, i would think
2015-07-04T02:30:53Z wobh: Anyway, there's probably a bunch of other worthy projects to move.
2015-07-04T02:31:22Z beach: Bike: I definitely have graph-traversal code. But it doesn't involve generating printed representation.
2015-07-04T02:31:40Z Bike: well yeah, by "highlighting" i was thinking graphically as well.
2015-07-04T02:32:40Z beach: Yes, I understand.
2015-07-04T02:33:29Z beach: Probably not trivial to accomplish.
2015-07-04T02:34:25Z beach: Oh, I guess I could provide a second top-level printing function. It would search for loops first and then print those highlighted.
2015-07-04T02:34:34Z Bike: it could be kind of nice for microoptimization stuff, maybe
2015-07-04T02:34:39Z beach: Sure.
2015-07-04T02:34:49Z beach: I do have loop-detection code somewhere.
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2015-07-04T02:36:03Z beach: A back arc in a loop is an arc from a node N to a node M such that M dominates N.
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2015-07-04T02:36:18Z beach: ... or something like that.
2015-07-04T02:38:11Z nyef: I can't help but feel that there's something wrong with that definition, but I can't remember enough about the dominance relation to puzzle out what. Or maybe there's nothing wrong with it, and my fuzzy recall of the definition of dominance is at fault.
2015-07-04T02:39:06Z beach: Dominance has a straightforward definition.
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2015-07-04T02:39:27Z beach: A dominates B if every path from the start node to B goes through A.
2015-07-04T02:39:45Z beach: Make that "if and only if".
2015-07-04T02:40:26Z nyef: Yes, that's what I thought I rememebered.
2015-07-04T02:41:16Z nyef: Which makes it fairly easy to have a loop that doesn't involve an arc from N to M where M dominates N, because you could have the control-flow split such that M is only on one of hte paths to N.
2015-07-04T02:41:39Z beach: But, yeah, as I recall, there are structures that aren't considered loops by that definition, and that are sometimes convenient to consider as being loops.
2015-07-04T02:42:24Z beach: I think you are right. That definition of loop is fairly restricted.
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2015-07-04T02:42:51Z beach: As I recall, I use a different one: A strongly connected component of the graph.
2015-07-04T02:43:05Z kristof: I wasn't aware of how good Lisp in Small Pieces is
2015-07-04T02:43:41Z kristof: This is a very satisfying read :)
2015-07-04T02:43:49Z nyef: kristof: Yeah, LiSP, for all that it's about Scheme rather than Common Lisp, is awesome.
2015-07-04T02:44:23Z kristof: They talk a lot about Common Lisp so no loss there
2015-07-04T02:45:23Z wobh: I was pretty excited when I first heard about Lisp in Small Pieces, but then I went looking for it. Stickershock knocked whatever the price was out of memory.
2015-07-04T02:45:57Z kristof: 130 bones
2015-07-04T02:46:24Z kristof: Oh, it's going for about 80USD now
2015-07-04T02:47:35Z theos: nobody is a pirate here? :P
2015-07-04T02:48:04Z nyef: For that book? Absolutely not!
2015-07-04T02:48:23Z wobh: Hrm. Amazon has it for $100, CBP for $120
2015-07-04T02:49:35Z beach: Bike: It is easy to get sucked into sub-projects for improving the graphical output. One thing I have considered would be an interactive program for exploring the graph, allowing the user to hide parts, or abstract away a bunch of nodes into a single one, etc.
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2015-07-04T02:49:38Z theos: hmm it was written in some other language and someone translated it to english
2015-07-04T02:50:11Z beach: theos: It was written in French, and the translator is so good that the English version is much better than the original.
2015-07-04T02:50:41Z theos: beach its ms kathleen
2015-07-04T02:50:51Z wobh: I was more broke when I first went looking.
2015-07-04T02:50:55Z nyef: Heh. Sub-projects for improving graphical output, huh? Right now my two active projects are NQ-CLIM and trying to get the video card in one of my computers running as a Linux framebuffer. (-:
2015-07-04T02:51:00Z beach: theos: Ms Callaway.
2015-07-04T02:51:53Z beach: theos: She is a brilliant writer too.
2015-07-04T02:51:55Z theos: Ms Kathleen Callaway. she is also french!
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2015-07-04T02:52:24Z beach: theos: Yes, she has been French for 3 months or so. She is also American.
2015-07-04T02:52:37Z theos: oh
2015-07-04T02:53:20Z beach: I am going to her naturalization ceremony this coming Monday.
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2015-07-04T02:54:53Z beach: nyef: It takes iron will to resist getting sucked into such a sub-project. :)
2015-07-04T02:55:16Z nyef: An iron will, or possibly a good project plan.
2015-07-04T02:55:29Z beach: Sure, yeah.
2015-07-04T02:55:37Z theos: beach thats awesome! :D
2015-07-04T02:55:42Z beach: theos: Kathleen Callaway is my wife.
2015-07-04T02:56:03Z theos: beach are you serious?
2015-07-04T02:56:05Z beach: theos: Or, as I usually say, my (admittedly small) family.
2015-07-04T02:56:09Z nyef: And *that's* one of the reasons why we don't pirate that book. d-:
2015-07-04T02:56:17Z beach: heh!
2015-07-04T02:56:22Z theos: this is a very small world
2015-07-04T02:56:58Z theos deletes all the copies of said book quickly
2015-07-04T02:57:19Z beach: nyef: No skin off her nose. She was paid a flat fee.
2015-07-04T02:57:28Z theos: beach so are you Mr Callaway?
2015-07-04T02:57:41Z beach: theos: No. She kept her maiden name.
2015-07-04T02:57:44Z drmeister: I still have some two-arg-- funcalls in there - I haven't inlined that function yet.
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2015-07-04T02:58:18Z theos: beach now i have to read that book!
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2015-07-04T02:58:25Z beach: theos: You do, yes.
2015-07-04T02:59:02Z drmeister: I need to do this whole set + - < <= >= > = right away.
2015-07-04T02:59:11Z beach should ask Christian Queinnec for a percentage of his royalties.
2015-07-04T02:59:43Z kristof: woah
2015-07-04T02:59:52Z beach: drmeister: I think Bike said that there was a loop with no funcalls in it.
2015-07-04T03:00:01Z wobh: beach: That's a heck of a reveal. Well played.
2015-07-04T03:00:07Z kristof: I'm reading a book that beach's wife translated. _.
2015-07-04T03:00:22Z beach: wobh: It is common knowledge here.
2015-07-04T03:00:33Z drmeister: There may be - but I see some missed opportunities that will be corrected when I inline subtraction.
2015-07-04T03:00:47Z beach: wobh: You bring your copy to the next ELS, and she will sign it for you.
2015-07-04T03:00:55Z drmeister: LiSP is what set me down this road.
2015-07-04T03:01:08Z theos: wobh wait till beach's identity is revealed in future episodes
2015-07-04T03:01:28Z wobh: Ha! When I'm wealthy enough to do so, gladly!
2015-07-04T03:01:58Z beach: Bah, you sign up for grad school and have a professor pay your way.
2015-07-04T03:02:05Z beach: It's a job.
2015-07-04T03:02:38Z wobh: That's ... not how it works, ... here, anyway.
2015-07-04T03:02:49Z beach: wobh: Where is "here"?
2015-07-04T03:02:53Z theos 's profs couldnt make their own ends meet...
2015-07-04T03:03:21Z wobh: Apparently I live in some proximity to theos.
2015-07-04T03:03:39Z beach: and where is that?
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2015-07-04T03:03:51Z wobh: For me, in the western US.
2015-07-04T03:03:57Z beach: wobh: I went to Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. That's how it worked there.
2015-07-04T03:04:29Z beach: Maybe times have changed.
2015-07-04T03:04:51Z theos: i live in India. where the principle/dean confiscates your scholarship.
2015-07-04T03:05:03Z wobh: I'm not confident I could pass the GRE's.
2015-07-04T03:05:18Z beach: theos: Wow! :(
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2015-07-04T03:06:15Z wobh: I "helped" a friend study for those, once. I was good enough to hold open a book for her and that was it.
2015-07-04T03:06:28Z beach: drmeister: I need to figure out how it can be that Cleavir is expanding multiple times, even though I didn't see it when I tried the first example by stassats.
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2015-07-04T03:09:00Z drmeister: beach: No problem - it is completely reproducible in cclasp. I confess that I don't have the root cause but it has something to do with that :AROUND method of CONVERT.
2015-07-04T03:09:30Z wobh: and scholarship confiscation happens here too, but it's called "fees".
2015-07-04T03:09:39Z drmeister: It isn't a recursive call to EVAL calling CONVERT calling EVAL and so on.
2015-07-04T03:09:46Z beach: drmeister: That much I understood. I am just puzzled that I didn't see it.
2015-07-04T03:10:09Z beach: I will investigate, of course.
2015-07-04T03:10:22Z drmeister: I'd be happy to work with you and run any tests that you want to run on cclasp to diagnose what is going on.
2015-07-04T03:10:37Z beach: drmeister: I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.
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2015-07-04T03:11:16Z wobh: Oh, and just earlier this year, there was a graduate student strike!
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2015-07-04T03:11:30Z drmeister: stassats will be up in about 10 hours - he tracked it down as far as he did pretty quickly. The guy is an amazing debugger.
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2015-07-04T03:11:45Z beach: yeah.
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2015-07-04T03:12:38Z drmeister: You saw the example that he came up with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (progn (progn (progn (progn (progn (foo))))))) - genius.
2015-07-04T03:12:58Z beach: I will try that one here.
2015-07-04T03:13:05Z beach: ... when I am a bit more awake.
2015-07-04T03:13:38Z drmeister: No problem. I have plenty of inlining to work on.
2015-07-04T03:13:48Z beach: Good.
2015-07-04T03:14:51Z drmeister: Once you implement the type inference and NIL/T removal optimization I think this code will run as fast as code written in C.
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2015-07-04T03:15:04Z drmeister: No hurry.
2015-07-04T03:15:20Z beach: Let's hope you are right.
2015-07-04T03:16:14Z drmeister: The LLVM-IR looks like LLVM-IR that clang generates - Clasp will be speaking LLVM-IR with no Common Lisp accent.
2015-07-04T03:16:47Z beach: I admit it is looking good so far.
2015-07-04T03:16:48Z drmeister: Once it is indistinguishable from LLVM-IR generated by Clang - it can't be anything but.
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2015-07-04T03:18:42Z wobh: http://sourceforge.net/directory/os%3Amac/freshness%3Arecently-updated/?q=%22Common+Lisp%22
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2015-07-04T03:38:09Z beach: drmeister: I think I fixed the calls to CONTEXT. Thanks for finding that. Again, you are ahead of me, so I haven't executed that code yet here.
2015-07-04T03:39:52Z drmeister: You are welcome; to give credit where credit is due - stassats tracked it down.
2015-07-04T03:40:26Z beach: That too? Great!
2015-07-04T03:40:50Z nyef: stassats is amazing.
2015-07-04T03:42:16Z beach: drmeister: Now that you and stassats have debugged that code, I should start using it in SICL. :)
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2015-07-04T03:43:15Z drmeister: Oh, CONTEXT - sorry - I read CONVERT.
2015-07-04T03:43:41Z drmeister: I found the CONTEXT one but that fell into my lap
2015-07-04T03:43:42Z beach: Aha, so that's entirely yours.
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2015-07-04T03:45:36Z drmeister: Yeah, it's no big deal when I do it. I'm just very careful to give credit where credit is due. It's been a crazy day debugging-wise.
2015-07-04T03:46:17Z beach: Yeah, you seem very busy. I can take credit for that I suppose. :)
2015-07-04T03:46:19Z drmeister: And I'm really, really grateful to you for writing this stuff and to people who are helping me out with it.
2015-07-04T03:46:38Z drmeister: Yes, yes you can.
2015-07-04T03:47:50Z theos: havent seen stassats in a while. last time he was pissed about people talking OT
2015-07-04T03:47:52Z drmeister: I am very, very pleased that I had the sense to hitch my wagon to your engine.
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2015-07-04T03:48:36Z nyef: theos: Haven't seen stassats in just over five hours.
2015-07-04T03:49:11Z theos: nyef oh. maybe we have different timezones
2015-07-04T03:49:25Z beach: theos: I think stassats left #lisp because he felt singled out and picked upon by pjb.
2015-07-04T03:49:57Z beach: theos: I may be wrong, but that was my impression.
2015-07-04T03:50:10Z drmeister is just happy to work with great collaborators
2015-07-04T03:50:17Z theos: beach :( thats unfortunate. i think he is a sensitive person.
2015-07-04T03:51:13Z beach: theos: Both pjb and stassats have very strong personality and are both very knowledgeable.
2015-07-04T03:51:26Z nyef: SBCL/arm wouldn't have been usable nearly as soon as it was if it weren't for stassats.
2015-07-04T03:52:18Z beach: drmeister: Again, flattery will get you nowhere. :) I am happy that my stuff is useful to you of course.
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2015-07-04T03:54:47Z drmeister: It's not flattery. Anyone can look at the Cleavir code and the Clasp code and see what I've gained from this. I'm happy about that.
2015-07-04T03:55:15Z drmeister: I'm also learning a lot.
2015-07-04T03:55:45Z drmeister: I anticipated that I would get a crash course on compiler design - and I am.
2015-07-04T03:55:54Z beach: Excellent!
2015-07-04T03:56:03Z beach: It this is only the beginning.
2015-07-04T03:57:11Z drmeister: My colleagues think I should approach our Computer Science department about a joint appointment. I was thinking about it. Perhaps I could submit my static analyzer for doing compacting garbage collection on C++ as original research. I'm musing it over.
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2015-07-04T03:57:46Z beach: "appointment" as in being affiliated with that department?
2015-07-04T03:58:57Z drmeister: I don't know what they would entertain. There is precedent for this. I used to work for Neal Ostlund - he was a Chemistry professor who later in life also became a professor of Computer Science.
2015-07-04T03:59:58Z drmeister: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/hotarticles/cenear/951023/neil.html
2015-07-04T04:00:38Z drmeister: This is his company: http://www.hyper.com
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2015-07-04T04:01:07Z drmeister: I worked for him while I was an undergraduate. I'm sure that some of my code is still in Hyperchem.
2015-07-04T04:01:24Z theos: beach i am sure stassats is very knowledgeable. what i have noticed is that everytime i saw him here, he would get angry and quit the channel just because someone said something off-topic. i dont know the person well enough though.
2015-07-04T04:01:37Z beach: drmeister: I suppose whether it is possible depends on the rules that your university applies.
2015-07-04T04:02:28Z theos should go learn about godel machines
2015-07-04T04:02:55Z Bike: this is not a computer formalism, is it. blah
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2015-07-04T04:05:58Z drmeister: beach: You have a FIXNUM-LESS-INSTRUCTION and a FIXNUM-NOT-GREATER-INSTRUCTION - is that all I need?
2015-07-04T04:06:06Z beach: drmeister: In France, you probably wouldn't stand a chance. They are very attached to formal education here.
2015-07-04T04:06:37Z beach: drmeister: I think that's all you need.
2015-07-04T04:06:41Z drmeister: They may be here as well. I haven't approached them.
2015-07-04T04:06:42Z nyef is very detached from formal education.
2015-07-04T04:08:01Z beach: drmeister: If you can do it, it would probably be good from the point of view of getting grants.
2015-07-04T04:08:04Z drmeister: The only reason to do it would be to get access to computer science graduate students. But twice as many faculty meetings (shudder).
2015-07-04T04:08:45Z beach: drmeister: I think there is still heaps of money to be had in CS.
2015-07-04T04:09:25Z drmeister: It may be good for grants. There is a huge interest here in computational design of materials and "Material Genomics". I'm a pretty rare breed - I'm a maker as well as a designer.
2015-07-04T04:10:25Z drmeister: We are good at building big computers - people want to use them to make better materials.
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2015-07-04T04:11:05Z Bike: so a CS grad would be writing their thesis on compiler optimizations or somefin?
2015-07-04T04:11:06Z drmeister: I've been trying to do this my whole adult life - I should get some support for it.
2015-07-04T04:11:11Z beach: It might work. CS is "swallowing" many other domains now. Simply because computing is everywhere and the CS people have the right training to take advantage of that.
2015-07-04T04:11:40Z Bike: i mean my lab has some CS /under/grads, but that's different
2015-07-04T04:11:41Z beach: Bike: I don't think there is any career prospects in that.
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2015-07-04T04:12:11Z beach: Bike: I think compiler research is as dead as OS research.
2015-07-04T04:12:23Z beach: I might be wrong of course.
2015-07-04T04:15:05Z beach: drmeister: And I think that's a real danger if you move to CS and take on PhD students. You probably don't have the experience to determine when a PhD subject would be a valuable career path for the student. You could very easily ruin the career of someone without knowing it.
2015-07-04T04:15:29Z Bike: numerical programming, i bet you could do that
2015-07-04T04:16:20Z drmeister: beach: Yes, I'm very aware of that.
2015-07-04T04:17:37Z drmeister: It's a serious business - I don't approach it lightly.
2015-07-04T04:17:46Z beach: Bike: That's a tough domain to get new results in I think.
2015-07-04T04:18:18Z Bike: yes it is. might be some novel things to optimize in chemistry, but then, there's already proteins...
2015-07-04T04:18:19Z beach: drmeister: You could gang up with a colleague in CS.
2015-07-04T04:18:30Z Clarice: The state of compiler research is to let the LLVM guys do their thing.
2015-07-04T04:18:32Z drmeister: Our CS department doesn't have any language people.
2015-07-04T04:18:34Z Clarice is now known as kristof
2015-07-04T04:19:26Z beach: drmeister: That probably reflects what I said; compiler research is dead.
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2015-07-04T04:21:54Z drmeister: beach: I obviously think the herd mentality is wrong on this.
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2015-07-04T04:22:32Z drmeister: Anyway.
2015-07-04T04:23:32Z kristof: drmeister: What does the cs department at your university think of what you're doing?
2015-07-04T04:23:42Z kristof: Do you get assistance / interest, etc.
2015-07-04T04:24:29Z drmeister: The idea is that I should negate the results of FIXNUM-NOT-GREATER-INSTRUCTION and FIXNUM-LESS-INSTRUCTION and an optimization will take care of it?
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2015-07-04T04:24:47Z drmeister: kristof: My cs department doesn't know I exist.
2015-07-04T04:24:59Z beach: drmeister: What is it that you are missing?
2015-07-04T04:25:04Z Bike: do you not have cs undergrads?
2015-07-04T04:25:30Z drmeister: Bike: I had two but I spent a semester trying to help them set up emacs.
2015-07-04T04:25:38Z beach: Heh!
2015-07-04T04:26:08Z nyef: drmeister: Next time, have a puppet configuration for them to use?
2015-07-04T04:26:10Z Bike: hrm. they're not that bad here. got ffi and version control working and such
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2015-07-04T04:26:29Z drmeister: They teach these kids Java in Eclipse and they can't do anything unless you plunk them down into a chair in front of a computer with everything installed and started up.
2015-07-04T04:27:11Z beach: drmeister: Are you missing FIXNUM-GREATER and FIXNUM-NOT-LESS?
2015-07-04T04:27:28Z beach: drmeister: Just interchange the arguments and one of the others will work.
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2015-07-04T04:27:35Z Bike: were they like, seniors? people who TA and shit.
2015-07-04T04:27:39Z Bike: well i guess i shouldn't prod
2015-07-04T04:27:42Z drmeister: I don't want to complain - they were sharp kids but we spent a lot of time trying to get them set up.
2015-07-04T04:27:43Z theos moved all departments to OSS while he was teaching.
2015-07-04T04:29:32Z beach: drmeister: Notice that there are more ASTs because they need to respect the evaluation order.
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2015-07-04T04:29:55Z drmeister: beach: Oh - exchange the arguments. I think my confusion is that there are FIXNUM-< FIXNUM-<= FIXNUM-> FIXNUM->= and just two FIXNUM-LESS-INSTRUCTION and FIXNUM-NOT-GREATER-INSTRUCTION.
2015-07-04T04:30:03Z drmeister: I've got an impedance mismatch.
2015-07-04T04:30:19Z drmeister: Does Cleavir do the argument swapping?
2015-07-04T04:30:26Z beach: Yes.
2015-07-04T04:30:42Z drmeister: Ok. Sorry to be a dunce.
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2015-07-04T04:31:02Z nyef: NOT-GREATER is LESS-OR-EQUAL, right?
2015-07-04T04:31:25Z drmeister: nyef: That was my next question. I'm 99.99999% sure it's "yes"
2015-07-04T04:31:25Z beach: Yes.
2015-07-04T04:31:34Z drmeister: Yeeha.
2015-07-04T04:31:45Z drmeister trundles off to write some code
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2015-07-04T04:33:43Z beach: drmeister: You should only have to worry about generating the ASTs and implementing the existing instructions. The rest should be taken care of by Cleavir.
2015-07-04T04:34:39Z drmeister: Got it.
2015-07-04T04:35:34Z drmeister: What is the cleavir-primop:fixnum-arithmetic operator for?
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2015-07-04T04:38:00Z drmeister: I'm going to run out of cleavir-primop's soon :-)
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2015-07-04T04:39:23Z nyef: ... The two of you have got me starting to think about writing my own Lisp compiler. And I'm fairly sure that I have a pile of other things that should take priority.
2015-07-04T04:39:33Z drmeister: Nah, I'll be fine with this for a while. I'm looking for "proof of concept" of speedup here.
2015-07-04T04:40:27Z drmeister: I used this recently but it is very apropos.
2015-07-04T04:40:28Z drmeister: https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2829/13394088375_00d70ddaaa_z.jpg
2015-07-04T04:40:59Z drmeister: Darn - I used it on you didn't I?
2015-07-04T04:41:19Z drmeister: And you are one of the five people in North America who hasn't seen the movie.
2015-07-04T04:41:20Z beach: drmeister: I forget what it's for.
2015-07-04T04:41:39Z drmeister: It's a humorous warning.
2015-07-04T04:41:59Z drmeister: beach - have you seen the Lord of the Rings movies?
2015-07-04T04:42:04Z nyef: ... Yes. Yes, you did. And no, I still haven't seen it.
2015-07-04T04:42:11Z beach: drmeister: No, I have not. Sorry.
2015-07-04T04:42:33Z drmeister: Oh my goodness!
2015-07-04T04:42:45Z beach: nyef: I take it you would not be interested in helping out with Cleavir?
2015-07-04T04:43:15Z nyef: ... I don't know.
2015-07-04T04:43:37Z nyef: Right now I think I have my hands full with NQ-CLIM and this Linux thing.
2015-07-04T04:43:45Z beach: Sure.
2015-07-04T04:43:51Z drmeister: nyef: Join us! Become one of us!
2015-07-04T04:43:56Z drmeister starts chanting
2015-07-04T04:44:13Z nyef: drmeister: Get the total system build time down under four hours first!
2015-07-04T04:44:28Z drmeister: Damnit!
2015-07-04T04:44:51Z drmeister: :-)
2015-07-04T04:45:18Z drmeister: Cleavir's really understandable! It's really nice code!
2015-07-04T04:45:34Z beach: Thank you!
2015-07-04T04:45:51Z drmeister dangles imaginary Cleavir code in front of nyef while he kicks his code under the rug.
2015-07-04T04:46:19Z nyef: I think that the worst of the scope creep on the Linux-kernel thing is over, but I may end up helping out with some of the userland stuff as well.
2015-07-04T04:47:13Z beach: "userland stuff"?
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2015-07-04T04:48:33Z nyef: Yeah, MIPS support in some linux distros is a bit iffy.
2015-07-04T04:48:43Z beach: I see.
2015-07-04T04:49:30Z nyef: On the other hand, I think I finally have a stable enough system that I might be able to do some SBCL hacking on it, which was the entire point of this exercise.
2015-07-04T04:50:07Z beach: Great!
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2015-07-04T05:27:55Z wobh: Read about SICL and Cleavir, now exploring metamodular.com.
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2015-07-04T05:29:43Z beach: Good! Good! :)
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2015-07-04T05:31:46Z wobh: If you haven't come across it, already some of Kathy Sierra's work might explain why people would "resist learning" for some things.
2015-07-04T05:32:29Z beach: I'll check it out. Thanks.
2015-07-04T05:32:51Z wobh: http://seriouspony.com/blog/2013/7/24/your-app-makes-me-fat
2015-07-04T05:33:27Z nyef: Ah, right. I remember that bit from her book, "Badass".
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2015-07-04T05:33:38Z wobh: Unfortunately, it draws on some psychological studies which might be wrong.
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2015-07-04T05:33:56Z PuercoPop: nyef: btw I've seen some info about your clxs proyect but the repo seems to be dead
2015-07-04T05:34:10Z kami: Good morning, #lisp.
2015-07-04T05:34:18Z wobh: (not because the idea isn't sound, but because nearly every study about everything is wrong)
2015-07-04T05:35:10Z nyef: PuercoPop: Yeah... looks like I still haven't gotten around to putting it on github.
2015-07-04T05:36:17Z kami: Xach: did you have time to review this PR? https://github.com/darabi/quicklisp-slime-helper/commit/c9545dafd1ded0cc038fc3ea0b8feed7e053d413
2015-07-04T05:36:25Z PuercoPop: how does it compares to zen?
2015-07-04T05:36:47Z nyef: clxs is massively incomplete.
2015-07-04T05:36:58Z nyef: I have no idea about that other thing.
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2015-07-04T05:38:22Z beach: wobh: Psychology is hard to get right.
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2015-07-04T05:44:23Z nyef: Ugh. It's almost quarter of two. I need to get some sleep.
2015-07-04T05:44:32Z nyef: G'night all.
2015-07-04T05:44:41Z beach: 'night nyef.
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2015-07-04T05:47:03Z kami: Good night, nyef.
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2015-07-04T06:15:17Z drmeister: beach: I have some timing data.
2015-07-04T06:15:35Z beach: Yes?
2015-07-04T06:15:37Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/OozCsXZ0/
2015-07-04T06:16:05Z drmeister: (time (fibn 100000000 78)) on SBCL 47.025 second
2015-07-04T06:16:18Z drmeister: On Clasp with inlining 130 seconds
2015-07-04T06:16:29Z drmeister: In C 1.5 seconds
2015-07-04T06:16:29Z beach: Wow, not bad at all.
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2015-07-04T06:17:03Z beach: Well, you probably didn't set all the optimize flags in SBCL.
2015-07-04T06:17:14Z drmeister: I didn't set any optimize flags in SBCL
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2015-07-04T06:17:36Z drmeister: What do you recommend?
2015-07-04T06:17:45Z beach: So it's a bit unfair to compare to C.
2015-07-04T06:18:07Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/sjhDOg55/
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2015-07-04T06:18:32Z drmeister: Those don't work. Hang on -
2015-07-04T06:19:09Z beach: You need to check that you don't get a bignum in the end.
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2015-07-04T06:20:49Z beach: OK, no risk.
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2015-07-04T06:21:20Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/62alxddY/
2015-07-04T06:21:25Z beach: On my computer SBCL does it in 5.4 seconds.
2015-07-04T06:21:35Z beach: with no optimization.
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2015-07-04T06:22:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/64dLqDVg/
2015-07-04T06:23:08Z beach: 2.1 seconds with some optimize flags and some declarations.
2015-07-04T06:23:10Z drmeister: Hmmm, I'm still getting 47 seconds.
2015-07-04T06:23:16Z drmeister: What are you using?
2015-07-04T06:23:53Z beach: Also (declare (fixnum reps num))
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2015-07-04T06:25:14Z beach: If you do &aux (rnum 0) (p1 0) (p2 0) (z 0) you can also declare those to be fixnums.
2015-07-04T06:25:48Z drmeister: Right, but that's not a fair fight.
2015-07-04T06:26:03Z beach: Then I get 0.87 seconds.
2015-07-04T06:26:08Z beach: Right.
2015-07-04T06:26:19Z beach: I already said that the Clasp number is great.
2015-07-04T06:26:27Z beach: I was thinking of your C comparison.
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2015-07-04T06:27:00Z drmeister: Right - here is the code for that:
2015-07-04T06:27:02Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/XBTwmTkl/
2015-07-04T06:27:27Z beach: How does the Clasp timing compare to bclasp?
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2015-07-04T06:30:40Z drmeister: I have to dial the reps way down.
2015-07-04T06:30:43Z drmeister: Ho boy
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2015-07-04T06:32:20Z drmeister: Hang on - checking numbers - t
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2015-07-04T06:34:08Z drmeister: About 118x faster
2015-07-04T06:34:16Z beach: Heh!
2015-07-04T06:34:20Z beach: Nice!
2015-07-04T06:34:23Z Shinmera: Now we're cooking.
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2015-07-04T06:35:01Z drmeister: That's without type inference and without nil/T comparison optimization.
2015-07-04T06:35:10Z beach: Yep.
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2015-07-04T06:36:59Z drmeister: And there is zero consing other than 510 bytes that I get whatever I do.
2015-07-04T06:37:12Z Shinmera: Sounds good all around.
2015-07-04T06:37:47Z drmeister: So that's pretty much it. Variables on the stack, immediates and inlining.
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2015-07-04T06:38:08Z Shinmera: drmeister: If you can push the changes still, I can launch a build in a few minutes.
2015-07-04T06:38:25Z Shinmera: Probably won't be done by the time you wake up, but either way.
2015-07-04T06:38:42Z drmeister: Hang on - pushing
2015-07-04T06:39:15Z schjetne: Authors should put their IBAN numbers inside the covers. As a rule I don't buy e-books, the tools for production and distribution are free (as in freedom and price), the only ones I'm concerned with reinbursing are the authors who put in all the effort. Printed books are a different matter because there is effort in production and they provide added value over the contents. (return-from tangential-rant)
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2015-07-04T06:40:17Z drmeister: Pushed
2015-07-04T06:40:21Z drmeister: newbuild branch
2015-07-04T06:41:02Z beach: drmeister: Well, this is very good news indeed.
2015-07-04T06:41:05Z Shinmera: drmeister: Ok, I'll launch a build on my workstation as soon as I can convince myself to leave the sofa.
2015-07-04T06:41:50Z drmeister: beach: Yes, it's very exciting.
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2015-07-04T06:43:34Z beach: And since you are using LLVM, I don't even have to implement all the traditional compiler optimizations in order to do even better.
2015-07-04T06:43:53Z beach: A few HIR-level optimizations should be sufficient.
2015-07-04T06:44:08Z beach: In particular type inference.
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2015-07-04T06:46:12Z drmeister: Agreed.
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2015-07-04T06:46:37Z drmeister: What do you call the T/NIL optimization? There are some places where it generates NIL or T and then immediately tests for them.
2015-07-04T06:47:33Z drmeister: Maybe it doesn't have a name.
2015-07-04T06:48:58Z beach: It is similar to PRE
2015-07-04T06:49:10Z beach: Partial Redundancy Elimination.
2015-07-04T06:49:32Z beach: Except that PRE is only done for values and not for conditional branches.
2015-07-04T06:49:38Z beach: So I don't think it has a name.
2015-07-04T06:50:37Z beach: If it hasn't been done before, it might be publishable.
2015-07-04T06:51:18Z beach: There is a paper about code replication to avoid multiple tests.
2015-07-04T06:51:40Z beach: But they don't have a good algorithm for it the way I do, as I recall.
2015-07-04T06:52:39Z beach: I can do it by graph rewriting techniques, which is great because correctness is easy to see.
2015-07-04T06:53:39Z drmeister: Sorry - I was crawling around the MIR.
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2015-07-04T06:53:55Z drmeister: I circled what I was looking at.
2015-07-04T06:53:57Z beach: No problem. I was just blabbing.
2015-07-04T06:54:15Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/TVrxL7Zt/mir.pdf
2015-07-04T06:55:09Z beach: Yeah, very typical.
2015-07-04T06:56:28Z beach: You will also find multiple tests for FIXNUMP.
2015-07-04T06:56:54Z beach: Maybe not in this case, but in general.
2015-07-04T06:57:04Z beach: Similar for CONSP.
2015-07-04T06:58:38Z drmeister: Yes. They turn into a single TEST instruction and a branch
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2015-07-04T06:59:54Z drmeister: But I think the precalc-value-ref are hurting a lot. They may be turned into calls or they may be inlined by LLVM - I'll COMPILE-FILE this and disassemble it.
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2015-07-04T07:02:30Z beach: At the very least, they turn into an array access.
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2015-07-04T07:03:59Z beach: But that should not be a problem, at least not in the future.
2015-07-04T07:04:16Z beach: These values can be cached in registers.
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2015-07-04T07:05:13Z beach: You need to figure out how to convince LLVM that the result of a precalc-value-ref instruction can be cached.
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2015-07-04T07:12:04Z drmeister: Here, I've highlighted the hot paths
2015-07-04T07:12:17Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/p9tmHj58/mir.pdf
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2015-07-04T07:15:06Z beach: Does LLVM do loop-invariant optimizations?
2015-07-04T07:16:10Z beach: If so, the precalc-value-ref should be done outside the loop body.
2015-07-04T07:16:26Z drmeister: Also, this is the MIR, the final LLVM-IR could look quite different.
2015-07-04T07:16:35Z beach: Right.
2015-07-04T07:16:43Z drmeister: Actually, hang on, I COMPILE'd this - I better COMPILE-FILE it - that does more optimizations
2015-07-04T07:18:46Z beach: Still, I think what I am saying is important. You need to convince LLVM that those precalc-value-ref can be cached, i.e., that they compute the same value each time. Then LLVM should be able to cache the values in registers.
2015-07-04T07:19:33Z beach: It can't figure that out by itself, because it has to assume that other operations can change the result of these instructions.
2015-07-04T07:20:09Z drmeister: With COMPILE-FILE it's 10.7 seconds
2015-07-04T07:20:18Z drmeister: COMPILE was 13.3
2015-07-04T07:20:24Z beach: Nice!
2015-07-04T07:21:26Z beach: I thought you said 130. Did you change the arguments?
2015-07-04T07:23:02Z pjb: beach: so you'll be French too in 3 months by marriage? Don't they do naturalisations in couples?
2015-07-04T07:23:31Z beach: pjb: I don't know. I would have to at least apply.
2015-07-04T07:23:35Z beach is guessing that drmeister is too excited to pay attention.
2015-07-04T07:23:58Z pjb: Well, I'm a programmer, not a public administrator…
2015-07-04T07:24:42Z beach: Sure. I am not going to apply though. There is no point now that we are all basically in the same country.
2015-07-04T07:24:54Z pjb: Of course.
2015-07-04T07:25:23Z pjb: Only that they didn't really make it the same country, the way they built the Euro. This will backfire.
2015-07-04T07:25:41Z beach: We'll see.
2015-07-04T07:26:11Z beach: It's all still very new. Give them time.
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2015-07-04T07:28:48Z drmeister: Sorry - I'm digging around looking for the "final" LLVM-IR generated after all LLVM optimizations
2015-07-04T07:28:54Z drmeister: Reading...
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2015-07-04T07:34:51Z pjb: In French university, you can still do some stuff without formal background, if you pass some exam (recently I watched an interview of a guy who did some interesting work in optics and could have access to university to experiment, without even the bac, but after some kind of "thesis defence". And notably, professionnal experience can be validated as formal background for late entry. But of course it's rather exceptionnal in a country
2015-07-04T07:34:51Z pjb: with 90% of pupils certified able to go to the University :-)
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2015-07-04T07:35:09Z drmeister: Hmmmf - I prefer Cleavir graphs.
2015-07-04T07:35:18Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/Yo7PVNR5/cfg.cl-%3EFIBN.dot.pdf
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2015-07-04T07:37:13Z beach: drmeister: I can't read that. You shall have to summarize for me.
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2015-07-04T07:37:49Z drmeister: I can't read it either.
2015-07-04T07:38:01Z drmeister: I'm crawling around it in Adobe Illustrator
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2015-07-04T07:40:32Z drmeister: Well, I can see it's not inlining my intrinsic functions.
2015-07-04T07:41:02Z beach: Your intrinsic functions?
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2015-07-04T07:43:40Z drmeister: I implemented a lot of simple operations in C and I call them using the C calling convention.
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2015-07-04T07:43:56Z drmeister: I thought they would be inlined but... nope.
2015-07-04T07:44:45Z beach: I see.
2015-07-04T07:44:52Z drmeister: They are short, they should be inlined - I'll look into it. Or I'll generate code for them.
2015-07-04T07:54:47Z pjb: drmeister: inlining can only be done by a compiler who knows the source.
2015-07-04T07:55:20Z pjb: Perhaps there's some provision for link-time inlining, but this would require extra machinery and intimate knowledge of the compiler at the other side.
2015-07-04T07:56:02Z pjb: Otherwise, you would have to use trick like fetching the binary code, analysing it, remove the call protocol, re-optimize it out, probably by rewriting some instructions. Not exactly simple.
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2015-07-04T07:56:06Z drmeister: Yes, and I went through some contortions to get LLVM-IR code generated from a C++ file into Common Lisp code.
2015-07-04T07:56:20Z drmeister: ... inlined into Common Lisp code.
2015-07-04T07:56:44Z pjb: I guess you processed the LLVM-IR and transformed it to adapt it into the CL context.
2015-07-04T07:57:02Z drmeister: It is link time inlining, it does require extra machinery.
2015-07-04T07:57:11Z pjb: yep.
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2015-07-04T07:57:58Z drmeister: Yet - something is broken.
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2015-07-04T07:58:13Z pjb: wobh: oops! You now need to update the links! There are links from http://wobh.github.io/cl-cookbook/windows.html to sourceforge :-)
2015-07-04T07:59:34Z drmeister: Ugh, it's too late. It's been a long day. 'night all.
2015-07-04T08:01:14Z beach: 'night drmeister.
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2015-07-04T08:03:57Z drmeister: beach: I just saw your comments.
2015-07-04T08:04:31Z drmeister: Yes, I changed the multiplier but the 10.7 (COMPILE-FILE) and 13.3 (COMPILE) timing numbers are with the same arguments.
2015-07-04T08:05:15Z drmeister: Also, inlining isn't working for a lot of intrinsic calls so once I fix that there should be an improvement.
2015-07-04T08:05:41Z drmeister: Alright - really good night.
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2015-07-04T08:48:44Z jackdaniel: oof, so much backlog, won't read that for sure :D
2015-07-04T08:48:45Z jackdaniel: hi all
2015-07-04T08:48:57Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2015-07-04T08:49:37Z beach: I can summarize the interchange between myself and drmeister so that you don't have to read it.
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2015-07-04T08:50:27Z jackdaniel: sounds good :)
2015-07-04T08:50:36Z beach: Essentially, a loop computing Fibonacci numbers in Clasp with fixnums and Cleavir inlining is 100 times faster than in Clasp without Cleavir.
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2015-07-04T08:50:48Z jackdaniel: congratz then :)
2015-07-04T08:50:53Z beach: Thanks!
2015-07-04T08:51:00Z beach: Very promising indeed.
2015-07-04T08:51:21Z beach: And there is still more room for improvements.
2015-07-04T08:51:58Z jackdaniel: always is (for sufficiently big project), what is crucial then is person/hour power
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2015-07-04T08:53:11Z beach: Sure. The most benefit will be in the beginning. Then it will decline because improvements will be more modest and they will take longer and longer to code.
2015-07-04T08:53:33Z jackdaniel: logarithmic growth ;)
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2015-07-04T08:55:19Z beach: Something like that.
2015-07-04T08:55:50Z beach: Did you get the reports about bugs in Clasp that come from ECL code. I think it was LAST and BUTLAST.
2015-07-04T08:55:56Z beach: ?
2015-07-04T08:56:16Z jackdaniel: no I didn't
2015-07-04T08:56:49Z beach: Hmm. I have no easy way of grepping in the #clasp logs.
2015-07-04T08:56:50Z jackdaniel: at least nothing that I know about, I'll check on gitlab
2015-07-04T08:57:43Z jackdaniel: no, only recent bugreport with GC < 7.4
2015-07-04T08:59:59Z beach: Oh, well. You might have to check with drmeister and stassats.
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2015-07-04T09:01:23Z beach: stassats said: (deftype foo (x . y) (list 'qoute x y)) is broken on ECL too.
2015-07-04T09:01:55Z jackdaniel: ah, this, it's more about deftype as is - it uses member and iterates over arguments like on list
2015-07-04T09:01:57Z beach: jackdaniel: As I recall, it doesn't like the dotted lambda list for DEFTYPE.
2015-07-04T09:02:07Z beach: Right.
2015-07-04T09:02:19Z jackdaniel: yes, I've copied it from abcl issue tracker, where stassats kindly put it
2015-07-04T09:02:29Z beach: Oh, OK. Great!
2015-07-04T09:03:26Z jackdaniel: I wonder however how many bugs I've missed
2015-07-04T09:03:37Z jackdaniel: mentioned in #clasp
2015-07-04T09:04:55Z beach: I don't think you missed anything.
2015-07-04T09:07:34Z jackdaniel: that's good :) ok, time to test this VisualStudio2013 patches
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2015-07-04T09:38:12Z jackdaniel: only project I know of, which has linear growth so far is linux
2015-07-04T09:38:23Z jackdaniel: saw even charts :)
2015-07-04T09:39:07Z beach: Growth as in number of additional users per time unit?
2015-07-04T09:39:23Z jackdaniel: no, growth as improvements in time
2015-07-04T09:39:39Z beach: Oh!
2015-07-04T09:39:56Z beach: Right, referring to previous discussion. I get it now. :)
2015-07-04T09:40:09Z jackdaniel: linux as in kernel, not gnu/linux os
2015-07-04T09:40:17Z pjb: then necessarily it will be exponential growth! e^-t
2015-07-04T09:40:31Z pjb: since improvements converges toward perfection.
2015-07-04T09:40:49Z jackdaniel: new functionalities might be considered as improvements as well
2015-07-04T09:41:13Z jackdaniel: so when you finish something, you can jump into something another, leaving previous thing perfect as is
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2015-07-04T09:43:52Z jackdaniel: ibm tried to push more ppl into OS/2 development, but fast initial growth ended in numerous regressions, so it's matter of human power only below some certain level of complexity
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2015-07-04T09:49:38Z jackdaniel: https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fthetowerofbabel.net%2Fyahoo_site_admin%2Fassets%2Fimages%2Ftower_of_babel.170113154.jpg&f=1
2015-07-04T09:52:28Z pjb: Architecturally, this doesn't look sound…
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2015-07-04T09:53:51Z jackdaniel: babel tower, abandonned by god and people
2015-07-04T09:54:09Z jackdaniel: once a proof of human proud and mighty, now sad legend
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2015-07-04T10:00:27Z jackdaniel: s/proud/pride/
2015-07-04T10:00:41Z jackdaniel: s/mighty/might/ :P
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2015-07-04T13:37:19Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2015-07-04T13:38:35Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-07-04T13:40:13Z beach: nyef: Any hacking plans today?
2015-07-04T13:41:32Z nyef: At some point today I'd like to try and get color drawing working in NQ-CLIM.
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2015-07-04T13:42:09Z nyef: Right now, though, I'm trying to figure out what I can about a particular hardware-accelerated video card.
2015-07-04T13:42:26Z beach: Sounds like fun.
2015-07-04T13:42:48Z nyef: Reverse engineering? Great fun, when you have something to go on. (-:
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2015-07-04T14:07:22Z JKaye: Is there any way to specify the argument to a (go) form at runtime?
2015-07-04T14:08:01Z JKaye: I would like to be able to push symbols onto a stack, then later pop them off and (go) to them
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2015-07-04T14:11:00Z nyef: JKaye: No, you would need to use CATCH/THROW for that.
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2015-07-04T14:12:13Z nyef: Or have some construct that dispatches on the symbol and then GOes to the appropriate tag, probably built via a macro.
2015-07-04T14:14:18Z JKaye: I may have to go with the second option
2015-07-04T14:15:00Z JKaye: My code is all being built from a few macros right now anyway, so I guess it shouldn't be too difficult to do something like that
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2015-07-04T14:30:22Z JKaye: It might be a little more difficult than I was expecting actually
2015-07-04T14:30:33Z JKaye: Basically I'm looking to make this expansion work
2015-07-04T14:30:34Z JKaye: http://pastebin.com/PNnQ1aZ1
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2015-07-04T14:34:29Z |3b|: maybe a loop with a CASE in it instead of tagbody?
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2015-07-04T14:36:59Z |3b| also thinks you can close over the go tags and store (lambda () (go ...)) then funcall that
2015-07-04T14:37:07Z |3b|: maybe i'm thinking of blocks though
2015-07-04T14:37:44Z nyef: No, no... That bit with (lambda () (go ...)) should work.
2015-07-04T14:38:07Z |3b|: yeah, was just realizing the mention of dynamic extent in the clhs implied that
2015-07-04T14:38:12Z nyef: Same principle as closing over a block, really, only GO tags are all at the same lexical level, and don't accept values.
2015-07-04T14:38:22Z JKaye: How would that work?
2015-07-04T14:39:02Z |3b|: (tagbody :foo (funcall (lambda () (go :foo)))) for a trivial example
2015-07-04T14:39:25Z |3b|: in your case, store the (lambda()(go :foo)) instead of :foo and funcall it to jump to :foo
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2015-07-04T14:39:40Z JKaye: Ahh I understand
2015-07-04T14:39:43Z JKaye: Let me give that a shot
2015-07-04T14:40:01Z nyef: Or prep a plist mapping :foo to the lambda with the GO, and then you can funcall (getf ...)...
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2015-07-04T14:48:16Z wobh: A
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2015-07-04T14:51:31Z chingon: Hola, ¿qué tal? :-)
2015-07-04T14:51:49Z JKaye: |3b|: Got it working! Thanks a lot
2015-07-04T14:51:53Z JKaye: nyef: Thanks to you too
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2015-07-04T15:02:22Z beach: Shinmera: Around?
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2015-07-04T15:16:28Z otjura: are there any benefits to Common Lisp over Scheme?
2015-07-04T15:16:35Z pjb: Yes.
2015-07-04T15:16:45Z pjb: See, the reaction is quite different ;-)
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2015-07-04T15:17:01Z beach: otjura: This is a Common Lisp channel so you won't get an unbiased opinion here.
2015-07-04T15:17:08Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2015-07-04T15:17:13Z pjb: Try ##lisp
2015-07-04T15:17:52Z otjura: let's formulate more clearly. what is the benefit of two namespaces versus one?
2015-07-04T15:18:04Z otjura: that's where it boils down to, doesn't it?
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2015-07-04T15:18:15Z beach: otjura: This is a Common Lisp channel so you won't get an unbiased opinion here.
2015-07-04T15:18:21Z pjb: otjura: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
2015-07-04T15:18:27Z otjura: I've read it.
2015-07-04T15:18:28Z beach: otjura: And, no, that's not what it boils down to.
2015-07-04T15:18:49Z beach: There is also CLOS, the condition system, packages, etc, etc, etc.
2015-07-04T15:18:53Z otjura: I digress. on lowest technical level it does.
2015-07-04T15:19:10Z jasom: otjura: 2 namespaces is but a minor difference
2015-07-04T15:19:30Z jasom: call/cc is a big distinguishing featuer of scheme that can't easily be implemented in common lisp
2015-07-04T15:19:49Z jasom: wheras it's fairly trivial to implement 2 namespaces in scheme or 1 namespace in common lisp via a macro
2015-07-04T15:19:50Z Shinmera: beach: I am now
2015-07-04T15:20:05Z beach: Is your logbot dead?
2015-07-04T15:20:24Z Shinmera: No
2015-07-04T15:20:44Z otjura: jasom: so theoretically scheme has more power?
2015-07-04T15:20:46Z Shinmera: Colleen: hi
2015-07-04T15:20:46Z Colleen: Hello.
2015-07-04T15:20:48Z jasom: otjura: and the lisp package system, as many as its faults, make it tractible to write macros safey without defsyntax
2015-07-04T15:21:13Z beach: Shinmera: OK, something else is wrong then. I am missing 9 hours of #clasp logs
2015-07-04T15:21:21Z Shinmera: beach: From when to when?
2015-07-04T15:21:41Z beach: 07:00 UTC to now.
2015-07-04T15:21:50Z Shinmera: I can see them just fine
2015-07-04T15:22:03Z beach: OK, I'll try to reload the page from scatch.
2015-07-04T15:22:06Z jasom: otjura: I said "easily" http://www.cliki.net/cl-cont
2015-07-04T15:23:56Z jasom: otjura: but if you care about which has more power theoretically, you probably want scheme.
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2015-07-04T15:24:21Z jasom: lisp takes a more pragmatic and less theoretical approach to many things
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2015-07-04T15:24:31Z |3b|: "theoretically" they are both turing equivalent, so both can compute the same set of things
2015-07-04T15:26:11Z otjura: jasom: thanks, that about answers it
2015-07-04T15:26:42Z jasom: otjura: though both communities are large enough and have enough implementations that you can't make any sweeping statements about either.
2015-07-04T15:27:55Z Shinmera: You can always make sweeping statements. It just won't be of much use for anything beside condescension though.
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2015-07-04T15:28:23Z beach: Shinmera: What is the link for the #clasp log with default interval?
2015-07-04T15:28:31Z Posterdati: hi
2015-07-04T15:28:37Z Shinmera: beach: http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp
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2015-07-04T15:28:39Z Posterdati: how can I change the stack size in ecl?
2015-07-04T15:28:53Z beach: Shinmera: https://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp doesn't work for me.
2015-07-04T15:29:15Z OxMLR: Anyone here ever write their own Lisp?
2015-07-04T15:29:15Z minion: OxMLR, memo from pjb: DANG! I have a hangman game that was in active development two or three weeks ago, but it's done now! Damned, I'll never be able to satisfy you!
2015-07-04T15:29:15Z minion: OxMLR, memo from pjb: http://cliki.net/Game
2015-07-04T15:29:39Z beach: minion: Please tell OxMLR about SICL.
2015-07-04T15:29:39Z minion: OxMLR: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2015-07-04T15:29:39Z pjb: OxMLR: why bother answering you, obviously you don't read this channel!
2015-07-04T15:29:40Z Shinmera: beach: I don't know what to say, I'm seeing everything from even until the most recent message you just made
2015-07-04T15:29:52Z beach: Shinmera: Hmm, OK.
2015-07-04T15:29:54Z pjb: OxMLR: TWO people are implementing two different CL implementation current in here!
2015-07-04T15:30:08Z pjb: OxMLR: beach -> sicl and drmeister -> clasp; but you never heard of them!!!
2015-07-04T15:30:20Z Shinmera: beach: I can only think of a caching issue.
2015-07-04T15:30:28Z MoO3: otjura: esta vida es como un restaurante ... xd
2015-07-04T15:30:36Z OxMLR: :D i didnt know if they were online or not :P
2015-07-04T15:30:55Z Shinmera: beach: Does http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp?from=2015-07-04T07%3A00%3A00 show anything?
2015-07-04T15:31:09Z drmeister: OxMLR: We are
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2015-07-04T15:36:06Z beach: Shinmera: It works. Give me 30 minutes. Emergency here.
2015-07-04T15:36:56Z Shinmera: beach: I'm guessing there might be a caching issue somewhere on the way to your screen. Maybe cloudflare is doing something weird when it shouldn't.
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2015-07-04T15:37:51Z OxMLR: I'm planning on writing my first Lisp in Rust, if anyone wants to help or offer any advice PM me c:
2015-07-04T15:38:13Z |3b|: beach, Shinmera: http vs https?
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2015-07-04T15:38:41Z Shinmera: |3b|: There's no https version for it to begin with
2015-07-04T15:38:47Z |3b|: http (Shinmera's link) works here, https (beach's link) returns an error
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2015-07-04T15:39:05Z Posterdati: how can I change the stack size in ecl?
2015-07-04T15:39:12Z Shinmera: (https doesn't work because of the single-subdomain level certificate)
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2015-07-04T15:39:40Z Shinmera: |3b|: Well he said there weren't any logs for a specific time range, so I assumed he had a link that actually worked at all.
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2015-07-04T15:40:54Z pjb: OxMLR: read LiSP: Lisp in Small Pieces http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
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2015-07-04T15:43:15Z jasom: Shinmera: well lisp does remain influential in "key algorithmic techniques such as recursion and condescension"
2015-07-04T15:43:33Z Shinmera: jasom: Indeed, that's what I was hinting at.
2015-07-04T15:44:01Z jasom: Shinmera: that's a blog article that I read at least once a year
2015-07-04T15:44:41Z Shinmera: It is very good indeed.
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2015-07-04T15:46:03Z edgar-rft: Posterdati: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/re86.html
2015-07-04T15:46:10Z OxMLR: pjb, i think that link is down?
2015-07-04T15:46:36Z Posterdati: edgar-rft: thanks
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2015-07-04T15:54:33Z drmeister: Hi OxMLR, yes beach and I are sharing code and experiences as we develop a pair of new Common Lisp implementations.
2015-07-04T15:54:48Z drmeister: His is called Sicl and the one I'm working on is called Clasp.
2015-07-04T15:55:24Z drmeister: github.com/drmeister/clasp
2015-07-04T15:55:39Z drmeister: minion: tell OxMLR about Clasp
2015-07-04T15:55:39Z minion: OxMLR: Clasp: An implementation of Common Lisp that interoperates smoothly with C++ and uses LLVM to generate native code
2015-07-04T15:55:45Z drmeister: Yay!
2015-07-04T15:56:17Z drmeister: We got a 142x (one hundred and forty two times) speed up last night.
2015-07-04T15:56:41Z Fade: !!
2015-07-04T15:57:27Z drmeister: It's now within an order of magnitude of SBCL and C.
2015-07-04T15:57:39Z pjb: OxMLR: try amazon then.
2015-07-04T15:57:54Z drmeister: And there are obvious improvements/optimizations to make still.
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2015-07-04T15:58:51Z OxMLR: drmeister, interesting, I believe I saw that on HN actually
2015-07-04T16:01:22Z beach: |3b|: Oh, maybe so. Thanks.
2015-07-04T16:01:46Z beach: Anyway, I need to go.
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2015-07-04T16:07:30Z drmeister: OxMLR: Yeah, take a look at it. Cleavir is a beautiful compiler. It uses CLOS extensively and it is very easy to follow what is going on.
2015-07-04T16:08:10Z drmeister: My code... uh... less so - but it works and it allows C++ code to be run and interface with a Common Lisp environment.
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2015-07-04T16:10:08Z drmeister: I like to think of Cleavir as the shiny, chrome engine and Clasp as the tires: they touch the real world and get muddy but they get you new places.
2015-07-04T16:11:22Z drmeister needs to get some retreading and that undercoating that he keeps hearing about. If you don't get the undercoating, that baby will rust right out from under you.
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2015-07-04T16:13:10Z drmeister: I'm on Darwin. SBCL version 1.2.11 and ASDF version 3.1.3 are pretty up to date - right?
2015-07-04T16:14:21Z Shinmera: Yes
2015-07-04T16:14:41Z nyef: Your SBCL is about two months old, but that shouldn't be a big deal.
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2015-07-04T16:26:27Z drmeister: How do people get quicklisp into SBCL at startup?
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2015-07-04T16:27:37Z drmeister: .sbclrc
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2015-07-04T16:27:47Z nyef: Have a look at (ql:add-to-init-file), yes.
2015-07-04T16:27:56Z nyef: (I think that's what it's called, at least.)
2015-07-04T16:28:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: I had this website with a list of papers on Common Lisp papers provided by the community. They were all proposals and descriptions of libraries. Does anyone here know what I'm thinking of? I can't find it.
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2015-07-04T16:32:41Z tokenrove: Petit_Dejeuner: are you thinking of https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/ ?
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2015-07-04T16:34:01Z Petit_Dejeuner: tokenrove, yes, thank you
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2015-07-04T16:52:09Z drmeister: What is the most idiomatic way to set *default-pathname-defaults* to a particular directory to load things from it?
2015-07-04T16:52:40Z drmeister: Just (setq *default-pathname-defaults* (pathname "~/WHATEVER"))?
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2015-07-04T17:00:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: drmeister, If it's dynamic, then you could use a let, right?
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2015-07-04T17:01:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: (let ((*default-pathname-defaults* (pathname "~/WHATEVER")) (do-operations))
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2015-07-04T17:09:36Z drmeister: Petit_Dejeuner: Thank you
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2015-07-04T17:13:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: np
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2015-07-04T17:16:34Z MoO3: Should the wild horses that roam North America be considered native wildlife?
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2015-07-04T17:20:09Z ggole: Introduced species aren't usually considered native.
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2015-07-04T17:24:47Z akkad: well horses were here originally before people in NA
2015-07-04T17:24:59Z akkad: it's like calling "first post" "native"
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2015-07-04T17:27:03Z ggole: Oh, hmm
2015-07-04T17:27:16Z ggole: I thought they were like camels and foxes in .au - totally nonendemic
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2015-07-04T17:32:50Z Bike: american horses went extinct a couple millenia ago
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2015-07-04T17:35:07Z MoO3: ggole ...like a yellow carp in .ch :-)
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2015-07-04T17:37:50Z jlarocco: if I have two byte values (msb and lsb) how can I convert them to a signed 16 bit number?
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2015-07-04T17:38:50Z Bike: (+ (ash high 8) low)
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2015-07-04T17:39:25Z jlarocco: but that returns an unsigned
2015-07-04T17:39:53Z williamyao: (* (if (logbitp 15 msb) -1 1) (dpb msb (byte 7 8) lsb))
2015-07-04T17:39:56Z jlarocco: (the (signed-byte 16) (+ (ash msb 8) lsb)) does the type conversion, but signals an error
2015-07-04T17:40:01Z jlarocco: for negatives
2015-07-04T17:40:10Z Bike: that's not what "the" does. william's should work
2015-07-04T17:41:03Z jlarocco: that will technically work, but is there any way to do it without the if?
2015-07-04T17:41:25Z Bike: what's wrong with an if?
2015-07-04T17:41:34Z jlarocco: I was hoping for a way to just reinterpret what was already there
2015-07-04T17:41:41Z H4ns: jlarocco: look at the binary-types library, https://github.com/frodef/binary-types
2015-07-04T17:41:54Z jlarocco: i don't need a new value, just a way to indicate the value already there is actually signed
2015-07-04T17:42:01Z williamyao: Lisp is not C. You can't just go treating everything as a sequence of bits all willy nilly.
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2015-07-04T17:45:36Z jlarocco: H4ns, I think that will work
2015-07-04T17:45:38Z jlarocco: thanks
2015-07-04T17:46:07Z nyef: Some of us can get away with treating everything as a sequence of bits all willy nilly, but it takes a while to get there... and we STILL do the IF thing for signed conversions.
2015-07-04T17:46:14Z MoO3: not willy nilly but itsy bitsy
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2015-07-04T17:46:40Z nyef: No, itsy bitsy is small stuff, willy nilly is uncontrolled stuff.
2015-07-04T17:49:56Z MoO3: whitout aviators all airplanes are uncontrolled
2015-07-04T17:51:41Z MoO3: whitout was not controlled
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2015-07-04T18:48:09Z jackdaniel: hm, what is better - preserve invalid corner-case with system boehm GC version 7.2 displaying warning, or just prevent building with it hinting, that included with ECL boehm GC is compatible?
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2015-07-04T19:12:12Z drmeister: Ho ho ho, Clasp is about 7x faster than Python for that Fibonacci example.
2015-07-04T19:14:17Z otjura: drmeister: nice google talk and great work with CLASP.
2015-07-04T19:16:07Z dim: drmeister: nice! unfortunately beating python at being fast is quite easy, I would say... next up? javascript? java/jvm? sbcl? ;-)
2015-07-04T19:16:17Z drmeister: C
2015-07-04T19:16:31Z dim: oh, yeah. I like your ambitions ;-)
2015-07-04T19:16:34Z drmeister: But my colleagues use Python.
2015-07-04T19:16:54Z dim: maybe a python compiler in cl wouldn't be totally out of reach?
2015-07-04T19:17:03Z dim: I don't mean for you to implement, forcibly...
2015-07-04T19:17:21Z dim: well then I guess the problem is all the C-coded parts that python uses to avoid being even more slow
2015-07-04T19:17:48Z Bike: clpython, right?
2015-07-04T19:18:05Z drmeister: otjura: Thank you
2015-07-04T19:18:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: "C" Why stop there? Fortan still exists.
2015-07-04T19:18:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ruRZqhqg/
2015-07-04T19:18:44Z dim: https://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/manual.html#completeness-compabitility
2015-07-04T19:18:49Z Bike: i saw meister's talk posted with «note: "molecular" here is not a metaphor»
2015-07-04T19:19:08Z drmeister: That's SBCL - note: no declares because I'm comparing Clasp's current level of optimization (no type inference) to SBCL
2015-07-04T19:19:37Z drmeister: Clasp is 10.7 seconds.
2015-07-04T19:19:39Z Bike: have you added stuff to with explicit type annotations?
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2015-07-04T19:21:40Z drmeister: Clasp doesn't use type annotations yet so that will speed up SBCL and have no effect (yet) on Clasp.
2015-07-04T19:22:37Z Bike: maybe you should do that next. just easy stuff, transform + to fixnum+ or something
2015-07-04T19:22:49Z drmeister: I also implemented the algorithm in C++ and it requires 0.15 seconds
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2015-07-04T19:23:04Z drmeister: So there is still room for improvement.
2015-07-04T19:23:32Z drmeister: But we can see where the improvements need to be made because I can compare the LLVM-IR generated by Clang with the LLVM-IR generated by Clasp.
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2015-07-04T19:26:53Z drmeister: Here's python2.7
2015-07-04T19:26:57Z dim: drmeister: here's my fav fib definition in CL: (defun fib (n) (loop repeat n for x = 0 then y and y = 1 then (+ x y) finally (return y)))
2015-07-04T19:27:03Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/p3qeFWjV/
2015-07-04T19:27:19Z drmeister: Python: 73.9 seconds
2015-07-04T19:27:42Z drmeister: My esteemed colleagues (and other Scientific Python weenies) can suck on that!
2015-07-04T19:27:48Z XachX: now now
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2015-07-04T19:28:13Z PuercoPop: iirc Nick Levine demo-ed something to expose CL to python last year.
2015-07-04T19:28:32Z XachX: You know that anything that must be fast in python is done via an FFI of some sort.
2015-07-04T19:29:00Z dim: drmeister: see also http://tapoueh.org/blog/2012/07/10-solving-sudoku and http://tapoueh.org/blog/2012/08/20-performance-the-easiest-way
2015-07-04T19:29:17Z drmeister: XachX: Yes, Scientific Python uses boost.python - which is the C++ template programming prototype for clbind - Clasp's interface to C++.
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2015-07-04T19:30:35Z drmeister: I'm convinced that it is the reason that Scientific Python exists. Without boost.python it would be a much harder job to expose the C++/C/Fortran libraries that Scientific Python relies on.
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2015-07-04T19:33:07Z dim: I think I'm that close to writing a dim-cl-lib or something that depends on the usual things I'm using in several projects and add my usual monkey patches and local improvements (that I don't think are worthy of publishing)... how bad is that?
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2015-07-04T19:34:48Z dim: it would have hunchentoot + load-static-ressource-in-the-binary-image things, fixed simple-routes, py-configparser + list-of-alist-to/from-ini, cl-who and cl-ppcre, alexandria with some functions exported, things like that
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2015-07-04T20:25:39Z pjb: XachX: I've pushed some more corrections.
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2015-07-05T00:34:27Z kristof: What's a reasonable equality you can define on function objects?
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2015-07-05T00:35:14Z kristof: If their name is the same? If they point to the same closure?
2015-07-05T00:36:34Z nyef: If they are EQ?
2015-07-05T00:37:04Z nyef: I'd ask why this is even a question, but I'm fairly sure that I don't want to know.
2015-07-05T00:37:16Z kristof: Implementation.
2015-07-05T00:37:28Z kristof: Lisp interpreter.
2015-07-05T00:37:42Z pjb: kristof: you could compare the code.
2015-07-05T00:38:03Z pjb: So you could say that (equal (lambda (x) x) (lambda (y) y)) because the generated code is the same.
2015-07-05T00:38:40Z pjb: Perhaps even (equal (lambda (x) (+ 1 x)) (lambda (y) (+ y 1))) if you can perform the comparison taking into account data flow and properties of operators.
2015-07-05T00:38:48Z pjb: but you have to be careful with side effects.
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2015-07-05T00:38:51Z nyef: I'd say to stick with EQ. Anything else just opens a bit of a can of worms.
2015-07-05T00:39:16Z kristof: I am leaning toward that, since pjb's solution is clever but is slightly scary.
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2015-07-05T00:39:39Z pjb: You could include a symbolic evaluator, evaluate both functions, and compare the symbolic results obtained. If they're the same, then the functions would be the same.
2015-07-05T00:40:24Z kristof: For my implementation that ends up being the same as name comparison, but later there will be a nuance between the two...
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2015-07-05T00:41:19Z kristof: Thank you both
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2015-07-05T02:17:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-07-05T02:19:51Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-07-05T02:42:14Z nyef: WooHoo! I got :INK working as a drawing option, to the point of actually affecting the output from DRAW-LINE* ! (-:
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2015-07-05T02:44:14Z beach: Congratulations!
2015-07-05T02:45:07Z nyef: Thank you.
2015-07-05T02:45:45Z Quadrescence: nyef, when will we be entertained with screenshots
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2015-07-05T02:47:16Z nyef: Quadrescence: Probably not for a while. Right now it's showing a black-on-white line drawing of a maze, similar to the first wizardry game, only with ONE of the lines in magenta.
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2015-07-05T02:47:49Z nyef: In short, not impressive yet.
2015-07-05T02:48:58Z Quadrescence: nyef, hey if lispers are impressed with 60 year old tech i'm sure we would be entertained by a monochromatic maze :)
2015-07-05T02:49:07Z Quadrescence: or dichromatic
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2015-07-05T02:54:01Z nyef: Let's see... 60 year old tech. "Word Processing" was coined as a term 60 years ago. The Polio vaccine was approved by the FDA. Experimental existence proof of the antiproton. The first accurate atomic clock was created 60 years ago August 24. The Velcro patent was awarded. The first wireless TV remote...
2015-07-05T02:58:06Z nyef: If you want to step that down to 46 year old tech, there was the moon landing. That was pretty impressive.
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2015-07-05T03:08:46Z nyef: Okay, color stuff all synced up to github.
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2015-07-05T03:09:52Z nyef: Tomorrow, assuming that I don't spend all of my time hacking the Linux kernel or something, I hope to get the graphics-method keyword arguments thing sorted.
2015-07-05T03:10:13Z nyef: And some more planning done, since that will empty my task queue.
2015-07-05T03:10:14Z beach: Sounds good.
2015-07-05T03:10:30Z nyef: Oh, and I still need to do indirect and flipping inks.
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2015-07-05T03:27:18Z nyef: Heh. "If an infinite recursion is created by using an indirect ink, an error is signalled when the recursion is created, when the design is used for drawing, or both." Does CONTROL-STACK-EXHAUSTED work as a suitable error? (-:
2015-07-05T03:27:40Z nyef: (Okay, to be fair, the resolution procedure is probably tail-recursive.)
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2015-07-05T03:28:12Z beach: Maybe you can set a low optimize flag to avoid TCO. :)
2015-07-05T03:28:42Z nyef: Or I can ignore the problem and hope it goes away?
2015-07-05T03:28:58Z nyef: I'll probably want to revise my chosen representation for indirect inks anyway.
2015-07-05T03:29:04Z beach: That's optimal when it comes to the amount of work required.
2015-07-05T03:34:43Z beach: Wow, beautiful thunderstorm here. Off-topic, I know, sorry. Back to Common Lisp.
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2015-07-05T03:45:19Z drmeister: Hello
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2015-07-05T03:48:27Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-07-05T03:50:07Z drmeister: Stassats hinted that one of my problems may be that my eval is getting top level forms and is not processing them as such. I haven't had the time to investigate further.
2015-07-05T03:50:46Z drmeister: 13:21 looking at eval, you just put the form into lambda and compile it, that's not going to work with defmacro
2015-07-05T03:50:54Z beach: drmeister: I suggest you lay low. The problem is very likely in Cleavir and I am on it.
2015-07-05T03:51:17Z drmeister: Ok
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2015-07-05T03:53:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: The messages in the topic/motd are all recommended?
2015-07-05T03:53:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: *libraries
2015-07-05T03:54:37Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Hell will freeze over before #lisp participants can all agree to recommend something.
2015-07-05T03:55:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ah, I'll just do whatever I want then.
2015-07-05T03:55:49Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: I suggest you ask here about specific libraries, and then you listen to all the (contradictory) opinions before making your own decision.
2015-07-05T03:56:40Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: You can then choose the opinion of people whose opinion you trust and ignore that of others.
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2015-07-05T03:58:27Z nyef: Or you could do your own research and form your own opinions without asking in the channel.
2015-07-05T03:58:42Z beach: That's much harder, though.
2015-07-05T03:58:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: ^
2015-07-05T03:59:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, I should ask about specific libraries in here from now on though. Usually when I ask it's something like "what's the *best* library for x"
2015-07-05T04:05:47Z nyef: And the answer depends on your selection criteria, which usually isn't specified, so everybody applies their own, hence the disagreements.
2015-07-05T04:06:46Z beach: Exactly.
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2015-07-05T04:18:42Z beach: drmeister: I can reproduce the problem here now.
2015-07-05T04:19:18Z drmeister: Excellent!
2015-07-05T04:19:30Z beach: drmeister: As I said, my SICL environment is very incomplete. At the moment, I only have a function to load source code, so it uses CL:COMPILE as its compiler.
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2015-07-05T04:20:07Z beach: drmeister: But when I use the function AST-FROM-FILE, which is the beginning of a COMPILE-FILE, I get multiple macro expansions.
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2015-07-05T04:20:56Z drmeister: Ok
2015-07-05T04:21:20Z beach: drmeister: I am not sure how much time I can spend hacking today. A friend and his sons are coming over for lunch, so I have to cook twice today.
2015-07-05T04:21:47Z beach: And it's the weekend, so I want to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
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2015-07-05T04:22:47Z beach: I realize some people might be impatient, but they shall just have to wait until I get around to it.
2015-07-05T04:22:47Z drmeister: No problem. I'm messing with problems with llvm. At your leisure.
2015-07-05T04:23:52Z drmeister: We all wear big person pants around here. We can wait. :-)
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2015-07-05T04:27:14Z drmeister: And really, I'm trying to make up for projecting my anxieties in the past. Take you time and enjoy the time with your family. I have plenty to do and family of my own.
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2015-07-05T04:28:58Z drmeister: I think I can get even more speed once I get rid of the function calls that llvm is failing to inline.
2015-07-05T04:29:23Z beach: That sounds good.
2015-07-05T04:30:39Z drmeister: Llvm on OS
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2015-07-05T04:31:14Z beach: I am not sure what you mean by "projecting [your] anxieties in the past", but it is probably not important either.
2015-07-05T04:31:27Z drmeister: It's not.
2015-07-05T04:32:35Z drmeister: Everything is fine. I'm really excited about our recent progress.
2015-07-05T04:39:57Z theos: good morgen
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2015-07-05T04:43:38Z beach: drmeister: Yes, it is looking quite good.
2015-07-05T04:43:47Z beach: Hello theos.
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2015-07-05T05:48:49Z theos: cl-irregsexp appears to be the fast with sbcl
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2015-07-05T06:25:32Z theos: the fastest*
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2015-07-05T08:00:57Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-07-05T08:07:15Z beach: Hello jackdaniel
2015-07-05T08:07:19Z jackdaniel: (:
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2015-07-05T08:11:05Z jackdaniel has to learn m4 to improve/simplify ECL build scripts
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2015-07-05T08:20:52Z beach: M4 is fun.
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2015-07-05T13:28:15Z p_l: „Parallel Global Garbage Collection” <--- ACL10 looks interesting :)
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2015-07-05T13:31:04Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: where ?
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2015-07-05T14:21:32Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2015-07-05T14:32:19Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach
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2015-07-05T14:40:48Z oleo__: hello :)
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2015-07-05T14:46:56Z drmeister: Hello, hi beach
2015-07-05T14:54:07Z |3b|: p_l: yeah, that sounded interesting
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2015-07-05T15:04:04Z beach: drmeister: I sent you email. I found the reason for the problem with multiple macro expansions, and I think I fixed it.
2015-07-05T15:04:31Z drmeister: Excellent - I'll give you feedback in a few minutes.
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2015-07-05T15:04:43Z beach: Did you read the email?
2015-07-05T15:04:57Z beach: I suggested that you don't commit to it until you have tested it.
2015-07-05T15:05:32Z beach: ... for the same reason as usual, i.e., I don't have a complete-enough environment for testing here.
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2015-07-05T15:05:52Z beach: So I might have introduced some other problem.
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2015-07-05T15:06:18Z beach thinks that might already be too late.
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2015-07-05T15:11:41Z theos: the arrow has left the bow
2015-07-05T15:12:10Z beach: Poetic!
2015-07-05T15:12:27Z Shinmera: Just gotta do a matrix style dodge and you'll be fine
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2015-07-05T15:53:44Z drmeister: beach: That did the trick - hang on - info following.
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2015-07-05T15:54:02Z drmeister: I'm compile-filing this:
2015-07-05T15:54:07Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ssk9nOqR/
2015-07-05T15:54:41Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ggC3Zb2b/
2015-07-05T15:54:54Z drmeister: EXPAND is printed only twice now. Previously it was 6 times
2015-07-05T15:58:15Z beach: Great!
2015-07-05T15:59:11Z beach: I guess if there is some compile-time evaluation that is not being done, we will know that eventually.
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2015-07-05T15:59:31Z drmeister: Does this correct the other issue with EVAL as well?
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2015-07-05T15:59:46Z beach: I don't know that there is another issue with EVAL.
2015-07-05T15:59:51Z drmeister: Looking for details...
2015-07-05T16:01:49Z drmeister: (cleavir-env:eval '(progn (defmacro #1=#.(gensym)()) (#1#)) nil nil)
2015-07-05T16:01:51Z drmeister: Trying
2015-07-05T16:01:59Z beach: drmeister: One thing that would be interesting to know is whether the latest change influences the compilation time.
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2015-07-05T16:05:43Z drmeister: I'll be able to tell you shortly - I'm wrestling with some problems with symbols being required out of order in cclasp.
2015-07-05T16:06:02Z drmeister: The question above about this: (cleavir-env:eval '(progn (defmacro #1=#.(gensym)()) (#1#)) nil nil)
2015-07-05T16:06:42Z drmeister: Should EVAL process top-level forms as COMPILE-FILE does? reading...
2015-07-05T16:07:18Z beach: They process things differently.
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2015-07-05T16:09:12Z beach: clhs compile-file
2015-07-05T16:09:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm
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2015-07-05T16:13:19Z drmeister: beach: That form (cleavir-env:eval '(progn (defmacro #1=#.(gensym)()) (#1#)) nil nil) fails in Clasp - I guess because I haven't set cleavir-env:eval to process top level forms properly.
2015-07-05T16:13:43Z beach: I don't know.
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2015-07-05T16:14:17Z beach: If you set *compiler* to 'cl:eval, it should process it correctly.
2015-07-05T16:14:46Z beach: It fails for me too, so it might be another problem.
2015-07-05T16:15:04Z beach: How does your failure manifest itself?
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2015-07-05T16:32:40Z beach: drmeister: I need to go cook dinner. I might be back later.
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2015-07-05T16:34:51Z drmeister: beach: Talk to you later.
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2015-07-05T17:04:39Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: Franz's newsletter
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2015-07-05T18:37:33Z pjb: Clarisse sera vengée. Nous disons deux fois...
2015-07-05T18:40:18Z fe[nl]ix: ???
2015-07-05T18:40:39Z pjb: Le facteur s'est endormi.
2015-07-05T18:41:47Z pjb: Le grand blond s'appelle Bill.
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2015-07-05T18:43:44Z contrapunctus: Weiß jemand, was er gesagt hat?
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2015-07-05T18:46:02Z pjb: :-)
2015-07-05T18:46:11Z pjb: Sorry, that was for #lispcafe.
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2015-07-05T18:46:57Z pjb: But so far, contrapunctus is ahead of the race.
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2015-07-05T18:48:33Z contrapunctus: :)
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2015-07-05T18:54:15Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/55d4871bc689e02002fb getting corruption in quicklisp files.
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2015-07-05T18:55:09Z Bike: that's not a corrupted file, that's a file not using ascii. i think you need to mess with your locale
2015-07-05T18:56:00Z akkad: odd, osx, default settings
2015-07-05T18:56:08Z pjb: or add #+asdf-unicode :encoding #+asdf-unicode :utf-8 to the system.
2015-07-05T18:56:27Z |3b|: the system being read?
2015-07-05T18:56:40Z pjb: Yes.
2015-07-05T18:57:31Z pjb: Well, no. lack.asd contains a #.(with-open-file that doesn't specify :external-format. This is the bug.
2015-07-05T18:57:42Z |3b|: ah
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2015-07-05T18:57:57Z pjb: probably the other asd in lack do the same…
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2015-07-05T19:13:32Z akkad: thanks
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2015-07-05T19:14:23Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.33
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2015-07-05T19:33:56Z jackdaniel: is defining print-object specialized on standard-object allowed? like (defmethod print-object ((obj standard-object) stream) …)
2015-07-05T19:34:24Z Bike: no. defining methods on any standard gf specialized on only standard classes isn't allowed.
2015-07-05T19:34:34Z Bike: because maybe the implementation has done so already.
2015-07-05T19:34:57Z jackdaniel: yes it did! and that's why weblocks crashes ecl :|
2015-07-05T19:35:36Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-07-05T19:37:11Z Bike: 11.1.2.1.2 #19 if you need a citation to complain with
2015-07-05T19:38:36Z jackdaniel: thanks. I have to prevent such behavior as well tough - like rising condition
2015-07-05T19:39:10Z nyef: Package locks?
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2015-07-05T19:46:57Z Bike: are package locks sophisticated enough to find definitions fitting all the criteria?
2015-07-05T19:46:58Z Shinmera: Package locks wouldn't grip on method definitions
2015-07-05T19:47:35Z Shinmera: Unless I'm misunderstanding something about how they work
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2015-07-05T19:57:00Z akkad: Why would the markdown readme file be loaded via quicklisp/lack.asd? READ error during LOAD: :ASCII stream decoding error on # logs:|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34
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2015-07-06T07:28:36Z loke: Hello H4ns
2015-07-06T07:30:53Z H4ns: loke: o/
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2015-07-06T07:34:12Z loke: H4ns: Do you know if it's possible to get usocket to talk ipv6 on sbcl?
2015-07-06T07:34:34Z loke: my hunchentoot don't want to listen to ipv6 and that makes me sad
2015-07-06T07:34:51Z H4ns: loke: i think there is a usocket branch that supports ipv6, did you have a look at that yet?
2015-07-06T07:34:57Z loke: (I only have ipv6 connectivity to my external staging server)
2015-07-06T07:35:05Z loke: H4ns: no. I didn't
2015-07-06T07:35:26Z loke: Who is the maintainer of usocket?
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2015-07-06T07:36:21Z H4ns: chun tian (binghe)
2015-07-06T07:36:29Z loke: Oh, not on #lisp?
2015-07-06T07:36:37Z H4ns: not to my knowledge
2015-07-06T07:36:47Z H4ns: he's very responsive to emails and github issues, though.
2015-07-06T07:37:06Z loke: OK, thanks. I'll test that.
2015-07-06T07:37:22Z theos: looks like he doesnt like irc though
2015-07-06T07:37:27Z loke: I presume that Hunchentoot will simply work out of the box?
2015-07-06T07:37:35Z loke: (once usocket supports it)
2015-07-06T07:37:38Z H4ns: loke: it should.
2015-07-06T07:37:43Z loke: Cool. Thanks.
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2015-07-06T08:56:52Z TMitBee: What necessity does SICP satisfy for a beginner wanting to learn to program with Common Lisp?
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2015-07-06T08:57:35Z TMitBee: iow, is it a "must read" text?
2015-07-06T08:59:57Z lieven: not if you want to learn Common Lisp
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2015-07-06T09:06:06Z theos: TMitBee get "Land of Lisp" or "ANSI Common Lisp"
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2015-07-06T09:06:47Z jdz: theos: why those? i'd find those two a bit questionable
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2015-07-06T09:07:22Z dim: Practical Common Lisp is great to attack CL from another PL experience
2015-07-06T09:08:01Z theos: jdz i find those good to start with. couldnt stand PCL for some reason
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2015-07-06T09:17:48Z TMitBee: thanks
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2015-07-06T09:18:14Z loz: i saw a good introduction article
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2015-07-06T09:18:44Z loz: which has some advices against scheme and sicp
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2015-07-06T09:55:48Z jackdaniel seconds theos pick
2015-07-06T09:56:10Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-07-06T09:56:18Z jackdaniel: or afternoon
2015-07-06T09:56:19Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-07-06T09:59:00Z pjb: aeth: the basis of testing, is to control the boundaries. Also, when testing you don't want to overspecify, that is, to test results too precisely. In the case of a GUI, if you wanted to test the whole GUI stack and the video controller and screen, that would imply a camera, and some image matching or even visual recognition.
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2015-07-06T09:59:53Z pjb: aeth: but if you want to test your own GUI program, and not the GUI framework, OS and hardware, then you should provide to your GUI program a mock API, and control that your program calls the expected entry points.
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2015-07-06T10:01:40Z pjb: aeth: notably, that means that you can check the geometry with all the precision or lack of precision you want. (most users do not specify geometry precisely, but some do).
2015-07-06T10:03:38Z pjb: akkad: check ignore-warning in clhs muffle-warning.
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2015-07-06T11:27:47Z Xach: pjb: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-05/failure-report/com.informatimago.html#com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.test still problematic
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2015-07-06T12:17:59Z pjb: let me see.
2015-07-06T12:21:04Z Xach: if you load with quickload, be sure to use :verbose t
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2015-07-06T12:22:17Z loz: #lisp, what do you think about http://ribosome.ch ?
2015-07-06T12:22:52Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: have you thought of turning those checks into something more automatable ?
2015-07-06T12:22:58Z fe[nl]ix: a QA service
2015-07-06T12:23:16Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: I've thought about it. Did you have something specific in mind?
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2015-07-06T12:25:04Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: those failure reports are very useful, I'd like to be able to trigger a check from a github commit hook
2015-07-06T12:25:26Z fe[nl]ix: then have your system compile all reverse deps in the latest release and notify me of breaks
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2015-07-06T12:25:47Z dim: well can't do do that already with travis-ci?
2015-07-06T12:26:11Z fe[nl]ix: I'd have to write code to handle all cases, and Xach already has it
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2015-07-06T12:26:41Z dim: I don't realize at all what is this handling you're talking about, so ok
2015-07-06T12:27:02Z dim: I was thinking (ql:quickload :your-system :verbose t) + some filtering to trigger build failure in a travis-ci hook
2015-07-06T12:27:04Z fe[nl]ix: I'd pay for something like this
2015-07-06T12:27:19Z dim: I guess the "some filtering" parts is what you're thinking about and the part Xach has already done?
2015-07-06T12:27:41Z fe[nl]ix: first, I said all reverse deps
2015-07-06T12:27:52Z fe[nl]ix: so, e.g. everything that depends on cffi
2015-07-06T12:28:15Z nyef: "everything that depends on cffi" is a fairly large everything.
2015-07-06T12:28:22Z fe[nl]ix: doing that in a single travis session would probably overflow the time limit
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2015-07-06T12:28:39Z fe[nl]ix: nyef: it's just CPU cycles
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2015-07-06T12:29:09Z nyef: And disk space, presuming that you have the files on-hand already.
2015-07-06T12:29:44Z nyef: But yes, it's "just resources".
2015-07-06T12:29:46Z dim: fe[nl]ix: oh, reverse deps, ok, misread, sorry
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2015-07-06T12:52:11Z kami: Hello #lisp
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2015-07-06T13:25:44Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: right now the process is intertwined. i want to more strongly decouple project updates from build testing, and make it easier to roll back individual updates, and make it possible (and easy) project sets that emerge as dists if testing is successful.
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2015-07-06T13:26:02Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: i think decoupling updates more will help set up more flexible builds in the future
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2015-07-06T13:27:09Z Xach: I also need to get on the scriptable setup bandwagon and make it possible to install even the hairy prerequisites on a scratch system. my build server is too much a precious snowflake.
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2015-07-06T13:28:26Z Xach: of course, it would be somewhat straightforward to at least see if the current stuff builds ok without too many changes
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2015-07-06T13:29:45Z dim: Xach: is there a ql function to list reverse dependencies, ala apt-cache rdepends?
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2015-07-06T13:52:38Z Xach: dim: (ql:who-depends-on "system-name")
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2015-07-06T14:09:01Z dim: excellent, thx
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2015-07-06T14:19:57Z Xach: pjb: what's the scoop?
2015-07-06T14:20:58Z oleo: hello
2015-07-06T14:21:16Z oleo: :(
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2015-07-06T14:27:57Z theos: hi
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2015-07-06T14:32:44Z pjb: Xach: testing on sbcl. I'll tell you soon.
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2015-07-06T14:36:13Z Vityok: can somebody please recommend a good manual/howto or sources about doing bit-wise logical operations in Common Lisp
2015-07-06T14:36:54Z Vityok: I've been doing Shift-OR algorithm implementation and it looks like implementation is not optimal as SBCL/CCL wrap
2015-07-06T14:37:04Z Xach: Vityok: it supports everything you might want to do. are you looking for function names?
2015-07-06T14:37:26Z Vityok: lognot/logior/etc. into additional calls that make it underperform compared to the theoretical estimates
2015-07-06T14:37:44Z Xach: Vityok: What do you mean by "wrap"?
2015-07-06T14:37:48Z nyef: Are you working in word-sized or smaller chunks with proper type declarations?
2015-07-06T14:38:25Z Vityok: I would like to start with the word-sized ops as Shift-OR is advertised to be working fast with word-sized integers
2015-07-06T14:38:58Z Vityok: for example: (lognot 0) returns -1, making it conflict with (unsigned-byte _)
2015-07-06T14:39:22Z nyef: Ah, use LOGAND to clamp the results to the appropriate width.
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2015-07-06T14:39:33Z Xach: Vityok: you can mask it or extract it to get the patterns you want.
2015-07-06T14:39:56Z Vityok: canonical implementations in C/Java/etc. work with (unsigned-byte 32) or similar, but IIRC some Lisp implementations don't provide real 32-bit integers as one bit is used to tag it for GC
2015-07-06T14:40:10Z H4ns: the key technique to avoid calls and type checks is to properly declare all variables and arguments
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2015-07-06T14:40:31Z p_l: Vityok: most lisps use tagged fixnums, yes
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2015-07-06T14:40:51Z Xach: SBCL will additionally do full word operations if you use logand/ldb to restrict the result sizes.
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2015-07-06T14:42:14Z Vityok: so probably there is some kind of a HOWTO or some sources that could be used as an example for good practices?
2015-07-06T14:42:40Z Xach: Vityok: I don't think so. I think it is just vaguely shared knowledge.
2015-07-06T14:43:08Z Xach: Like posting some code, saying "how can this be improved?" or similar
2015-07-06T14:43:24Z Vityok: ie. there is https://github.com/pkhuong/bitap-regexp by Paul-Virak Khuong
2015-07-06T14:43:24Z Vityok:
2015-07-06T14:44:00Z H4ns: this may be helpful: http://recurial.com/programming/efficient-bit-scaning-in-lisp/
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2015-07-06T14:44:31Z Vityok: the sources in question are: https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match/src/d2ba36b45592a1d32d45c98c955a022485fb0822/src/shift-or.lisp?at=devel
2015-07-06T14:44:41Z Vityok: H4ns: thanks, will take a look
2015-07-06T14:45:31Z Vityok: or Rabin-Karp also suffers tremendously because I couldn't implement efficient bit-wise operations: https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match/src/a084ae973cf91c128c70fa053f12a4d0bd01d4be/src/rabin-karp.lisp?at=default
2015-07-06T14:46:05Z fe[nl]ix: what bit-wise operations ?
2015-07-06T14:46:23Z H4ns: Vityok: also this: http://blog.30dor.com/2014/03/21/performance-and-types-in-lisp/
2015-07-06T14:47:04Z Vityok: fe[nl]ix: probably poor wording, I mean logical bit operations on unsigned integers (shift, or, not, etc.)
2015-07-06T14:47:15Z Vityok: like ash, lognot, logior, logand, etc
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2015-07-06T14:47:53Z Vityok: H4ns: thanks for sharing it!
2015-07-06T14:48:23Z Vityok: I wish that the code that Mike Vollmer wrote was available as a Quicklisp library
2015-07-06T14:48:33Z Vityok: because I am not very good at x86 assembly
2015-07-06T14:49:05Z H4ns: Vityok: just looking for calls and counting the number of instructions will get you a long way.
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2015-07-06T14:50:28Z Vityok: H4ns: so far bit-based algorithms (Rabin-Karp, Shift-OR) are not my primary focus as the Boyer-Moore-Horspool seems to provide excellent performance
2015-07-06T14:51:06Z H4ns: Vityok: let me offer you a blank stare
2015-07-06T14:51:20Z Vityok: but just out of a curiousity I would like to check if its possible to improve performance of the RK or S-OR impelementations as it might eventually prove useful in other cases
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2015-07-06T14:52:18Z Vityok: BTW, if anyone is interested in looking for robust search of substrings, take a look at the CL-STRING-MATCH library
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2015-07-06T14:52:38Z Vityok: Boyer-Moore-Horspool implementation offers decent speed-up on SBCL
2015-07-06T14:52:46Z |3b| wouldn't consider it 'robust' if it has random declarations about string types in the public API
2015-07-06T14:53:18Z |3b|: not all strings are SIMPLE-STRINGS, and lying to the compiler about it will cause things to randomly break for users
2015-07-06T14:53:51Z Xach: check-type would be safer
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2015-07-06T14:54:19Z |3b|: right, or typecase with duplicated implementation so it still works on normal strings if not quite as fast
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2015-07-06T14:55:22Z |3b|: (duplicated implementation since at least SBCL can compile better code when it knows the specific type, so you can have a fast version and a generic version, even if the code is identical)
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2015-07-06T14:56:29Z |3b| doesn't mean actually duplicating the text of the code though, factor it out with a macrolet or inlined function, maybe local function
2015-07-06T14:58:29Z Vityok: thanks for your advice
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2015-07-06T14:59:14Z Vityok: I will certainly look into this issue as well
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2015-07-06T14:59:44Z Vityok: feel free to open new tickets if you find more problems
2015-07-06T14:59:47Z |3b|: if that sor code relies on CHAR-CODEs being less than 256, you should probably verify that at runtime
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2015-07-06T15:05:34Z ofosos: Hi, I'd like to bundle a binary file with my asdf system to be used in testing said system. Anybody got an idea, how the test cases may find said file?
2015-07-06T15:06:17Z oGMo: ofosos: specify it as :static-file and use asdf "look up component" functions to get the path?
2015-07-06T15:07:26Z Shinmera: Alternatively, there's asdf:system-relative-pathname
2015-07-06T15:08:07Z ofosos: Oh, great :)
2015-07-06T15:08:09Z Shinmera: And alternatively you can do it without ASDF altogether, by using *compile-file-pathname*/*load-pathname* and merging that to get the proper relative pathname.
2015-07-06T15:08:23Z oGMo: https://github.com/rpav/laconic/blob/master/src/asdf.lisp#L3 <- the function i use, feel free to rip it off of course
2015-07-06T15:08:24Z Shinmera: *merging that with a relative path
2015-07-06T15:08:34Z oGMo: those too
2015-07-06T15:09:10Z fe[nl]ix: ofosos: don't put it in the ASDF system, :static-file is utterly useless
2015-07-06T15:09:14Z oGMo: i think newer asdf actually basically has a function as per above as well
2015-07-06T15:09:30Z oGMo: fe[nl]ix: it works pretty well IME :p
2015-07-06T15:09:32Z Shinmera: ofosos: See http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html
2015-07-06T15:09:53Z Shinmera: Esp. the first comment by stassats
2015-07-06T15:11:44Z Xach: pjb: thanks. if your project can be fixed to build with sbcl, i am ready for a new quicklisp release.
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2015-07-06T15:19:53Z pjb: Xach: Seems to be good, only remains a few style warnings. I'm commiting and pushing.
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2015-07-06T15:20:14Z Xach: pjb: thank you
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2015-07-06T15:22:48Z pjb: Xach: done, you can fetch it.
2015-07-06T15:23:04Z Xach tries with super excitement
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2015-07-06T15:23:26Z Shinmera: So I'm guessing we're closed to the next QL release?
2015-07-06T15:23:59Z Xach: I'm quite open to it, actually
2015-07-06T15:24:12Z Shinmera: I can't type today it seems
2015-07-06T15:24:21Z Shinmera: *close, I meant.
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2015-07-06T15:24:39Z Xach: The older I get, the more I type phoenetically. Maybe my ratio of speaking to typing has gone up.
2015-07-06T15:24:46Z Xach: Shinmera: yes, very close
2015-07-06T15:25:33Z Shinmera: Great! Now I just have to hope that qt-libs actually works on everyone else's systems.
2015-07-06T15:25:41Z pjb: Xach: I've got a asd file that contains systems with errors (for testing). Would there be a way to indicate quicklisp that it should not try to load it?
2015-07-06T15:26:19Z Xach: pjb: i can do that, but it may not be worth the trouble.
2015-07-06T15:26:39Z pjb: Right. And I could add my own #+pjb-testing and push it when I need it.
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2015-07-06T15:32:17Z rpg: Do I understand SLIME correctly that it's supposed to use ^L as a prefix key for load commands?
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2015-07-06T15:32:49Z pjb: I fail to see how.
2015-07-06T15:32:59Z pjb: Try C-h m to see the key bindings in your slime mode.
2015-07-06T15:33:05Z rpg: No, sorry. I misunderstood the code: C^c-C^l
2015-07-06T15:33:27Z rpg: seems odd there's no menu entry for this.
2015-07-06T15:33:37Z pjb: You've got the notation all wrong. It should be: C-c C-l
2015-07-06T15:33:41Z Shinmera: What kind of notation is that?
2015-07-06T15:33:57Z pjb: emacs.
2015-07-06T15:34:02Z pjb: C-c C-l is bound to slime-load-file
2015-07-06T15:34:04Z Shinmera: pjb: I know, I was asking rpg.
2015-07-06T15:34:32Z rpg: Shinmera: absent-minded!
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2015-07-06T15:34:54Z rpg: I think I was striving for ^c-^l and got a little carried away!
2015-07-06T15:35:53Z pjb: Let's keep the notation straight, it's C-c C-l.
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2015-07-06T16:46:14Z dim: so if anyone wants to implement SSL in pure CL but thinks that maybe a single protocol version or cypher might be enough for kicks, just see https://tessera.wikimedia.org/dashboards/6/tls
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2015-07-06T16:46:37Z dim: 82.45% of https trafic of wikimedia uses TLSv1.2
2015-07-06T16:46:46Z dim: a pure CL implementation of that might go a long way ;-)
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2015-07-06T16:47:34Z pjb: You could even use acl2 to prove it and make that a nice student project.
2015-07-06T16:47:39Z dim: cyphers ecdhe-rsa-aes128-gcm-sha256 and ecdhe-rsa-aes128-sha256 are 57.75% + 24.07% too, add ecdhe-rsa-aes128-sha for another 13% if you want to go fancy
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2015-07-06T16:48:08Z dim: I really want someone to see those facts and react like "oh so it's a week end's project, let me have a crack at it"
2015-07-06T16:48:17Z dim: and that person won't be me unfortunately
2015-07-06T16:48:38Z Shinmera: I'm usually crazy like that, but I got too much to worry about already.
2015-07-06T16:48:46Z dim: please? ;-)
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2015-07-06T16:49:20Z dim: there's a clean room ocaml implementation of TLS to get started from
2015-07-06T16:49:24Z dim: just saying
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2015-07-06T16:50:42Z scymtym: the ocaml implementation i heard of has parts written in C to prevent timing attacks
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2015-07-06T16:51:16Z scymtym: may be a different one, of course
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2015-07-06T16:52:31Z foom: If you're going to write a new TLS stack, I'd recommend using an existing library for the crypto primitives.
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2015-07-06T16:54:44Z dim: https://github.com/mirleft/ocaml-tls is the one I'm thinking of scymtym
2015-07-06T16:54:47Z fe[nl]ix: dim: thanks for the link
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2015-07-06T18:52:29Z brpocock: some time ago, some folks on here discussing how “git” seems to “unnecessarily” respond to patches with whitespace changes and all by showing many lines changed? Came across this just now: man gitattributes / /Generating diff text / tell Git to use an external command to generate the diff …
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2015-07-06T18:53:30Z foom: Hm? The builtin diff in git supports -w and -b fine...
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2015-07-06T18:53:36Z brpocock: ie, it's possible that an enhanced READ could perform tree-wise diffs. (Preserving comments and reader macros)
2015-07-06T18:53:46Z foom: Oh, you want it to know lisp too.
2015-07-06T18:54:23Z foom: Yea, you could totally do that if you were so inclined.
2015-07-06T18:54:45Z Bike: oh, how do you get git do that -w -b stuff, it looks useful maybe
2015-07-06T18:54:57Z foom: with -b
2015-07-06T18:54:58Z foom: or -w
2015-07-06T18:55:13Z Bike: passed to what?
2015-07-06T18:55:25Z foom: anything that prints a diff
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2015-07-06T19:16:35Z brpocock: We'd been discussing something loosely like, reformatting source at checkout akin to ~< (letting Lisp do its own thing) with our personal editor widths, preserving only comments and strings (and perhaps not even comments or docstrings), but then removing (all) extraneous whitespace on checkins. (So I get my 72-column view, and you can have your 160-column view, and git never knows what hit it).
2015-07-06T19:17:50Z brpocock: But a wise diff'er would complement that, such that we could run arbitrary reformatters in our editors without fear of angering the vcs
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2015-07-06T19:19:18Z akkad: hmmm no ecl love in trivial-core-dump
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2015-07-06T19:26:55Z fe[nl]ix: in .gitattributes: *.lisp diff=lisp
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2015-07-06T20:01:03Z akkad: how do you secure a swank socket on a multiuser system?
2015-07-06T20:02:05Z Xach: akkad: you can have it reference a file that only your user can read as a kind of cookie
2015-07-06T20:02:45Z akkad: oh? interesting
2015-07-06T20:03:47Z antoszka: Xach: does that make swank create a server on a unix socket rather than a TCP socket?
2015-07-06T20:03:58Z Xach: antoszka: I don't think so.
2015-07-06T20:05:40Z pjb: Using such a socket or named pipe would be a nice patch to swank for such situations. Alternatively, implement TLS in CL, and integrating it with swank, with some key or password management would do.
2015-07-06T20:05:56Z pjb: Ask dim about TLS in CL.
2015-07-06T20:06:12Z pjb: if you need some motivation.
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2015-07-06T20:09:48Z akkad: pair it with a client cert.
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2015-07-06T20:18:52Z attila_lendvai: good luck getting that patch through helmut... :)
2015-07-06T20:21:35Z PuercoPop: attila_lendvai: have you tried sly?
2015-07-06T20:22:51Z attila_lendvai: PuercoPop: I've tried to get many things into slime... but no, not this specific change. it's just my experience with helmut's extreme conservatism and his focus on his own needs as a slime user and maintainer.
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2015-07-06T20:24:09Z antoszka: That's why all the new features can/should go into SLY :)
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2015-07-06T20:24:36Z antoszka: I have a feeling the community is rather open to fixes/enhancements.
2015-07-06T20:24:42Z PuercoPop: attila_lendvai: I read you lamenting that slime wasn't fork in the same thread so I wanted to point you towards sly.
2015-07-06T20:25:50Z PuercoPop: (his maintainer is helpful & friendly ime)
2015-07-06T20:25:52Z PuercoPop: *forked
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2015-07-06T20:35:18Z attila_lendvai: PuercoPop: ah, ok. (I've misread sly to srly)
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2015-07-06T20:38:27Z attila_lendvai makes a note to rebase and send his slime patches to sly and then go on using sly instead of slime
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2015-07-06T20:43:38Z dkcl: Who do I have to have sex with in order for sly to support XEmacs?
2015-07-06T20:44:57Z antoszka: with <>?
2015-07-06T20:45:32Z Xach: dkcl: that seems unlikely to work
2015-07-06T20:45:34Z PuercoPop: dkcl: you can open an issue on its tracket, but it seems unlikely as Sly is targeting Emacs 24+
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2015-07-06T20:45:56Z dkcl: Oh well
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2015-07-06T20:54:11Z subopt: Does CL have something like the Emacs load-path var?
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2015-07-06T20:55:36Z brpocock: ASDF kinda does that bit, typically.
2015-07-06T20:56:06Z antoszka: Common Lisp by itself does not, but yeah, ASDF does.
2015-07-06T20:56:32Z subopt: thanks
2015-07-06T20:57:05Z antoszka: subopt: In what context do you need that?
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2015-07-06T21:00:32Z subopt: antoszka: Just working through an interactive tutorial. Thought my lisp thought it was running somewhere other than where i'd assumed. Found my mistake w/o needing something like load-path though.
2015-07-06T21:00:47Z antoszka: Right.
2015-07-06T21:01:04Z Shinmera: For that you most likely want to look at *default-pathname-defaults*
2015-07-06T21:01:18Z subopt: Shinmera: thanks
2015-07-06T21:01:28Z antoszka: There's also *default-pathane-defaults* on the lower level
2015-07-06T21:01:30Z antoszka: ah, lol
2015-07-06T21:01:34Z antoszka: Shinmera was faster
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2015-07-06T21:01:46Z antoszka: an I typoed :(
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2015-07-06T21:18:52Z hydan: Hi, when I M-. on loop I get this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151153 M-. on defmethod and other things works. Do you think this is sbcl issue? I have the source location configured in .sbclrc
2015-07-06T21:19:39Z hydan: latest sbcl from git and slime from Quicklisp
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2015-07-06T21:20:35Z antoszka: hm... sounds like slime/sbcl got out of sync somewhat
2015-07-06T21:20:52Z antoszka: why not just run the latest stable release of sbcl?
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2015-07-06T21:52:53Z gendl: Hi, in Bordeaux-threads, what would be a portable way of doing
2015-07-06T21:53:00Z gendl: (slot-value proc ‘mp:process-name)
2015-07-06T21:53:37Z gendl: apparently the process object itself is still an implementation-specific one
2015-07-06T21:53:54Z _death: bt:thread-name
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2015-07-06T21:54:20Z gendl: aha, perfect, thanks.
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2015-07-06T21:57:14Z gendl: somehow skipped right over that in the API documentation.
2015-07-06T21:57:50Z _death: ;)
2015-07-06T21:59:13Z fe[nl]ix: gendl: how did you type a LEFT_SINGLE_QUOTATION_MARK ?
2015-07-06T22:01:58Z gendl: single-quote ‘key ‘on ‘my ‘keyboard.
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2015-07-06T22:02:09Z gendl: but i’m not sure why it’s coming out as left-single-quote
2015-07-06T22:02:39Z gendl: it should be a normal single-quote. But I understand that character is kind of messed up in Unicode.
2015-07-06T22:02:42Z brpocock: On my keyboard it's either/both of Compose ' < or Greek+( [ISO_Level5_Shift + (], but I'm betting it's your IRC mode
2015-07-06T22:03:02Z gendl: i’m using Colloquy on Mac, with a Thinkpad bluetooth keyboard.
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2015-07-06T22:39:41Z pjb: subopt: something like http://paste.lisp.org/+38MQ
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2015-07-07T01:18:02Z nyef: ... Am I reading this right? If I want to have a class accept an initarg that is not associated with a slot, the defined-correct way to make it valid is to define (preferably :AFTER) methods on ALLOCATE-INSTANCE, INITIALIZE-INSTANCE, REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE, SHARED-INITIALIZE, UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS and UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-DIFFERENT-CLASS?
2015-07-07T01:18:35Z nyef: (Per CLHS 7.1.2, as reinforced by CLHS 7.3.1.)
2015-07-07T01:18:39Z Bike: can't you just do shared-initialize and have the rest ignore them?
2015-07-07T01:20:10Z nyef: Well, that's the thing. At least some of these functions are specified &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS, but there's a apparently a separate process that validates the set of keywords provided against the set of keywords bound for by the methods defined on the functions.
2015-07-07T01:20:36Z nyef: And it's done on a per-function basis.
2015-07-07T01:20:47Z nyef: That is, if I'm reading this part of CLHS right.
2015-07-07T01:21:26Z Bike: wow, this is really confusing.
2015-07-07T01:21:42Z nyef: Right. Also stupid-seeming, somehow.
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2015-07-07T01:21:59Z nyef: And then there's something later on that conflicts, but is very possibly not in a normative section.
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2015-07-07T01:26:54Z nyef: Hrm. Looks like it might be "define a method on ANY of these functions, and the initargs become legit for this situation", with SHARED-INITIALIZE being on the list for all of the situations.
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2015-07-07T01:29:39Z Bike: practically speaking i have to doubt whether any implementations really do much...
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2015-07-07T01:30:39Z nyef: Do you get errors when you supply a bogus initarg to MAKE-INSTANCE? Obviously SOMETHING happens.
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2015-07-07T01:33:01Z nyef: This is actually new ground for me in terms of using CLOS for anything beyond the basics.
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2015-07-07T01:33:43Z Bike: i think that's in make instance, at least on sbcl
2015-07-07T01:34:29Z Bike: (defclass foo () ()) (shared-initialize (make-instance 'foo) nil :bar 'baz) works, at least, and yes i know that's technically not allowed
2015-07-07T01:35:16Z Bike: though it's kind of hard to tell because ctors are scary.
2015-07-07T01:36:36Z Bike: but on ccl it's signaled from initialize instance. bummer.
2015-07-07T01:36:42Z nyef: Yeah, I feel like I'm on the precipice of some really involved bit of research into precisely how the CLOS stuff all fits together.
2015-07-07T01:38:39Z Bike: in ccl it's checked in ccl::check-initargs in l1-clos-boot.lisp which is... difficult to understand, but does involve all those functions you listed
2015-07-07T01:38:54Z Bike: actually no, not reinitialize or update. ok then.
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2015-07-07T01:39:44Z Bike: ...ok, looks like it takes a list of functions, but ignores all but the first it's called with, which in the normal make-instance path is just initialize-instance.
2015-07-07T01:39:53Z Bike: wait no.
2015-07-07T01:40:20Z nyef: For the MAKE-INSTANCE path, you have ALLOCATE-INSTANCE, INITIALIZE-INSTANCE, and SHARED-INITIALIZE.
2015-07-07T01:40:23Z Bike: okay, i kind of hate this.
2015-07-07T01:40:48Z Bike: ccl::compute-initargs-vector is apparently where the horrible things in 7.1.2 happen.
2015-07-07T01:41:00Z nyef: The primary method for INITIALIZE-INSTANCE calls SHARED-INITIALIZE.
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2015-07-07T01:41:28Z nyef: The contract for MAKE-INSTANCE is that somewhere an error is signalled if a bogus initarg is supplied.
2015-07-07T01:41:29Z Bike: and it literally goes through each function's methods and looks for aok-p or rest.
2015-07-07T01:41:51Z Bike: also contains #+no(...), which is p. good code
2015-07-07T01:42:07Z nyef: The contract for ALLOCATE-INSTANCE requires that the initargs already have been checked for validity.
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2015-07-07T01:43:22Z Bike: ok so i guess what you want to do is define methods on all those functions with aok-p that probably just call call-next-method. argh.
2015-07-07T01:43:26Z nyef: The primary method for REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE is defined to do the validity checking and then punt to SHARED-INITIALIZE, and this corresponds to the second case in 7.1.2.
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2015-07-07T01:44:50Z nyef: Hrm. &A-O-K on one of these methods kills initarg validation? What?
2015-07-07T01:45:33Z Bike: well it kills key validation in general, right.
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2015-07-07T01:46:07Z nyef: Hrm... Okay, now I need to look into the semantics of &KEY arguments on generic functions.
2015-07-07T01:46:29Z nyef: ... I might actually have half a clue as to what's going on by the time beach shows up.
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2015-07-07T01:53:56Z nyef: Okay, I think this mostly hangs together. The trick is 7.6.4, which is the definition for lambda-list congruency, and that SHARED-INITIALIZE (and presumably the others, I haven't checked yet) are specified &REST initargs &KEY &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS, which means that the GF doesn't do any validity checking on the keyword arguments, and that none of the methods need to mention any specific keyword arguments, nor do they need to mention
2015-07-07T01:53:56Z nyef: &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS.
2015-07-07T01:54:17Z Bike: the others all have aok-p, yeah.
2015-07-07T01:55:00Z Bike: really that's why it seems weird, 7.1.2 seems to be saying that aok-p actually does matter on methods, but it usually wouldn't if the gf has aok-p.
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2015-07-07T01:55:45Z nyef: Right, right... And I'm not sure that I fully understand the interaction of &A-O-K with GFs.
2015-07-07T01:56:15Z Bike: "If &allow-other-keys is mentioned in the lambda list of any applicable method or of the generic function, any keyword arguments may be mentioned in the call to the generic function. " and " A method is invoked as if the keyword argument pair whose name is :allow-other-keys and whose value is true were supplied, though no such argument pair will be passed. " is basically it, i think.
2015-07-07T01:56:34Z Bike: so the initializes are explicitly different from that.
2015-07-07T01:56:36Z nyef: Right, and the following point as well.
2015-07-07T01:57:47Z nyef: Although here's one for point 5. If &A-O-K isn't defined at the GF level, and does not appear on all of the methods, it only kicks in if one of the methods it appears on is "applicable".
2015-07-07T01:58:18Z nyef: ... Which I presume means "is selected by the arguments supplied"?
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2015-07-07T01:58:57Z Bike: oh, christ, you're right.
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2015-07-07T02:08:54Z nyef: Also looks like defining a class, creating a handful of instances, and then defining a SHARED-INITIALIZE method that applies to any further uses of MAKE-INSTANCE should work.
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2015-07-07T02:37:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-07-07T02:38:16Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-07-07T02:46:26Z hegel: does anyone know if the snap4 code was released?
2015-07-07T02:46:34Z hegel: this was for symbolics open genera
2015-07-07T02:46:44Z hegel: the lisp machine
2015-07-07T02:48:43Z hegel: http://wush.net/~opengenera/ this shows up on a google search
2015-07-07T02:49:37Z hegel: and when I do a readelf on the "snap5" there I can see there are significant changes
2015-07-07T02:50:12Z hegel: but it still doesn't work with recent versions of X (>~ 2013)
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2015-07-07T02:51:34Z hegel: and I can't find who's working on this one, doesn't seem to be brad@heeltoe.com
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2015-07-07T02:52:51Z nyef: beach: It looks like the next major chunk of functionality that I need to define for NQ-CLIM is actually the input subsystem.
2015-07-07T02:53:57Z nyef: Not to the point of being able to run the input editor, but possibly to the point of being able to use STREAM-READ-GESTURE.
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2015-07-07T02:55:05Z beach: nyef: That sounds plausible.
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2015-07-07T02:58:09Z nyef: So I'm thinking to continue working on some of the small stuff that I already have defined over the course of this week, while I plan out what needs doing for the input handling, get that at least somewhat sorted out, flip back to the frame management and layout stuff, then tackle the text stuff (text style mappings, text metrics, actually drawing text on a medium).
2015-07-07T02:58:44Z nyef: And that should be enough of the underlying system actually built out that I can start dealing with output-records and the input editor.
2015-07-07T02:59:57Z beach: The beginning of input handling should not be hard to plan.
2015-07-07T03:00:01Z nyef: I think if I'm working on a simple input/output stream, even without presentations, by the end of the month, it'll be fairly good progress.
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2015-07-07T03:00:34Z beach: Sure.
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2015-07-07T03:29:21Z beach: drmeister: I merged the two conflicting :AROUND methods.
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2015-07-07T03:51:06Z drmeister: beach: Wonderful - thank you. I'm not sure what was wrong but I haven't tried to build ASDF yet.
2015-07-07T03:51:25Z drmeister: I will pull your changes and proceed to build ASDF
2015-07-07T03:51:30Z drmeister: cclasp built find
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2015-07-07T03:55:55Z drmeister: fine
2015-07-07T03:56:44Z drmeister: And it does simple fixnum arithmetic fast. It's 5-7x faster than Python.
2015-07-07T04:02:03Z beach: Good.
2015-07-07T04:02:51Z nyef: ... Python, or that-other-python?
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2015-07-07T04:03:19Z Bike: the really slow python
2015-07-07T04:03:22Z nyef: Ah.
2015-07-07T04:03:29Z nyef: Okay, that-other-python.
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2015-07-07T04:03:52Z drmeister: The 'other' python.
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2015-07-07T04:32:23Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, cl-launch 4.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 1.3.15
2015-07-07T04:32:44Z loke: hello drm
2015-07-07T04:32:55Z loke: and nyef
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2015-07-07T04:36:09Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/0Rl8Jvd1/
2015-07-07T04:36:35Z drmeister: beach: EVAL-WHEN doesn't appear to be EVAL-WHEN'ing properly
2015-07-07T04:37:13Z drmeister: I traced CONVERT-SPECIAL and CCLASP-EVAL to see what (EVAL-WHEN (:compile-toplevel...) ...) was evaluating in a COMPILE-FILE
2015-07-07T04:37:24Z drmeister: Here is what I'm COMPILE-FILE'ing
2015-07-07T04:37:38Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/32YrjCBo/
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2015-07-07T04:39:07Z beach: Did you pull after my merging the two :AROUND methods?
2015-07-07T04:39:13Z drmeister: On line 19 of the first past is where CONVERT-SPECIAL specialized on EVAL-WHEN is being invoked with the form.
2015-07-07T04:39:29Z drmeister: Oh - wait.
2015-07-07T04:39:39Z drmeister: I pulled - but I didn't recompile all of cclasp.
2015-07-07T04:40:10Z drmeister: Right - sorry, I have two ways of running Cleavir and the one that is failing was compiled through the day.
2015-07-07T04:40:18Z drmeister: I'll get back to you tomorrow once I recompile it.
2015-07-07T04:40:21Z beach: OK.
2015-07-07T04:40:27Z drmeister: Sorry about that.
2015-07-07T04:40:32Z beach: No problem.
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2015-07-07T05:21:15Z mlrutherford: anyone ever mess with Shen language?
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2015-07-07T05:27:44Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-07-07T05:27:56Z jackdaniel never messed with Shen language
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2015-07-07T05:37:01Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2015-07-07T05:48:39Z emaczen: How can I uniquely set the name of the variable of generated, nested lambda lists?
2015-07-07T05:49:12Z emaczen: Inside a lambda-list I can't do something like: (lambda ((gensym-push lst)))
2015-07-07T05:49:32Z jackdaniel: `(lambda (,(gensym)) ...)
2015-07-07T05:50:02Z emaczen: Oops, I forgot to say that I want to store all gensyms
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2015-07-07T05:50:47Z emaczen: In a list
2015-07-07T05:51:21Z jackdaniel: (defmacro my-lambda-duh-duh (vars) (let ((lst (make-gensyms n))) `(lambda (,@lst) ...))
2015-07-07T05:51:24Z jackdaniel: )
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2015-07-07T05:51:37Z jackdaniel: or setf, push, nconc, whatever
2015-07-07T05:52:09Z jackdaniel: macro should contain body, not vars obv
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2015-07-07T05:57:31Z emaczen: jackdaniel: Thanks, I should be able to merge this into what I am doing.
2015-07-07T05:58:07Z jackdaniel: yw :)
2015-07-07T05:58:26Z jackdaniel: don't forget about duh-duh
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2015-07-07T07:43:23Z hlavaty: dim: i've already started with pre cl tls:-)
2015-07-07T07:45:45Z hlavaty: i've implemented most of the infrastructure things; now i need to do the crypto; but wish i had more time for this
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2015-07-07T09:44:30Z jackdaniel: wee, weblocks seems to work ok now on ECL \o/
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2015-07-07T09:48:27Z Vityok: it would be great if CLASP installation was easier
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2015-07-07T10:09:54Z dim: hlavaty: awesome, thanks for doing that!
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2015-07-07T11:07:14Z jackdaniel: is it permissible to use bsd licensed code in project declared "public domain" ?
2015-07-07T11:07:36Z p_l: jackdaniel: afaik it should be okay, but IANAL
2015-07-07T11:08:10Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-07-07T11:11:07Z fe[nl]ix: kind of
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2015-07-07T11:11:36Z fe[nl]ix: it's labeling a project as "public domain" that's almost certainly not legal
2015-07-07T11:11:52Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: depends on wording
2015-07-07T11:12:07Z jackdaniel: hm, not my projects, just submitting pull request
2015-07-07T11:12:27Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/pmai/md5/pull/1
2015-07-07T11:12:31Z p_l: while many people claim it's not, what they actually do is mixing up different law systems
2015-07-07T11:13:30Z jackdaniel is away
2015-07-07T11:14:27Z fe[nl]ix: all analyses I've read conclude that neither in the US, nor West-European countries does copyright law allow relinquishing copyright
2015-07-07T11:15:24Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: did it specify what they included under "copyright"? Because for example in Poland, you have two separate "rights", of which right to copy (literal "copyright") is relinquishable
2015-07-07T11:15:59Z p_l: the other is "authorship", meaning you can't be stripped of the fact you're the author of the piece
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2015-07-07T11:17:26Z p_l: with "public domain" defined as works that have "material" rights relinquished or expired, but not "author" rights
2015-07-07T11:18:06Z p_l: (tl;dr, "someone" got the bright idea of reading the whole copyright act when preparing for an exam in HS. Was strangely enlightening, both in good and bad ways)
2015-07-07T11:18:36Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha
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2015-07-07T11:20:46Z p_l: good ways: Reverse Engineering a guaranteed right of everyone that can't be taken away by EULA; Bad ways: copyright lengths due to WTO; wtf ways: DRM provisions written in a way that breaks logic
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2015-07-07T11:23:38Z Shinmera: Ain't law just fun
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2015-07-07T11:25:49Z Xach is reminded that philg wanted to write computer-aided litigation tools in CL
2015-07-07T11:26:52Z p_l: Shinmera: the wtf bit is that I'm unsure if it wasn't a clever ruse to protect DRM tools without actually protecting them - because it specifies that only "succesful" DRM mechanisms are protected, which suggests that broken ones are free game...
2015-07-07T11:27:44Z Shinmera: p_l: That's a problem I'm noticing with a lot of strict things: They try to be strict, but fail to properly define the terminology, making things really strange and inconsistent in the end.
2015-07-07T11:27:52Z theos: Xach an AI in CL that finds loopholes in the law? sounds interesting
2015-07-07T11:27:53Z p_l: sorry, "effective"
2015-07-07T11:28:16Z p_l: and in the sense of efficiency
2015-07-07T11:28:47Z p_l: theos: an AI that automates patent search in a way that combats bad patents would be a great thing
2015-07-07T11:29:14Z p_l once read a patent from post-2000 that patented RLE as this miraculous new compression method that will speed up internet
2015-07-07T11:30:27Z Shinmera: Interesting tidbit: While Swiss law has a default copyright duration of 70 years, there's a special clause for software that reduces it to 50 years. Still too long imo, but either way interesting.
2015-07-07T11:31:01Z p_l: Shinmera: IIRC, thanks to WTO treaty, we got the material rights counted from *death of author* instead of publication date
2015-07-07T11:31:38Z Shinmera: Rrright. I forgot about that. Now I'm not sure which it is. The only thing I am sure about is that it's specifically less for software than everything else.
2015-07-07T11:32:23Z p_l: Shinmera: yeah, but still counted from author's death, which is pretty much against the whole idea of copyright
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2015-07-07T11:43:56Z theos: if someone else cant figure out a better code even after 50 years of the author's death, then software patents are very profitable
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2015-07-07T11:46:59Z p_l: theos: software patents are usually about self-evident code to increase the suable set
2015-07-07T11:47:58Z p_l: for example patenting something considered easy enough to be solved without preparation in coding interview (abovementioned RLE)
2015-07-07T11:49:11Z p_l: or on things that in many countries are considered just math and isn't patentable, but because of USA it ends up unsued worldwide
2015-07-07T11:49:16Z p_l: like due to now-expired patents, most JPEG files are on average 25% bigger than it could be without change in quality, because someone held a patent on algorithmic coding
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2015-07-07T11:50:50Z theos: p_l i am aware of such (mal)practices. there should be a CL software to kill such claims
2015-07-07T11:52:22Z theos: a software to determine if the patent will halt progress. i think most patents halt progress though
2015-07-07T11:53:17Z p_l: theos: it used to be that patents helped progress because they included the documentation to replicate the "invention", thus showing people what was achieved.
2015-07-07T11:53:46Z hlavaty: so they should include source code? brilliant:-)
2015-07-07T11:54:01Z p_l: anyway, right now I would kill just for easy and quick to use GUI toolkit that would merge some level of CLIM stuff with, let's say, QT
2015-07-07T11:54:37Z p_l: hlavaty: not necessarily source code, but many patents were required to contain enough technical description to replicate the patented creation
2015-07-07T11:54:48Z Shinmera: p_l: What exactly would you want from CLIM in Qt?
2015-07-07T11:55:42Z hlavaty: didnt lichteblau work on clim+qt for his editor fork?
2015-07-07T11:55:57Z p_l: Shinmera: some of the presentation stuff (not everything), (accept) and such. Also, Listener. Kinda more like "bunch of premade widgets specific to Lisp", I guess.
2015-07-07T11:56:09Z Shinmera: p_l: Hmm.
2015-07-07T11:56:33Z p_l: or rather, a "lispish framework on top of QT"
2015-07-07T11:56:46Z p_l: no time to give for such work right now -_-
2015-07-07T11:56:56Z hlavaty: ffi gui are lisp dead end
2015-07-07T11:57:20Z Shinmera: You'll FFI in some form at some point
2015-07-07T11:57:22Z p_l: hlavaty: any kind of GUI these days will involve heavy FFI, no matter what
2015-07-07T11:57:27Z p_l: even if you go straight to hardware
2015-07-07T11:57:36Z hlavaty: no
2015-07-07T11:57:44Z p_l: (because the GPUs are essentially complete specialized computers that could compare with CM-1)
2015-07-07T11:57:58Z Shinmera: p_l: Qtools goes half way to where you want I guess. I'll look into those CLIM things you mentioned and see what I can do when I have time (after August)
2015-07-07T11:58:28Z p_l: Shinmera: have you played with OpenGenera? Or AutoCAD? Some of the stuff from it might explain what I've been thinking of
2015-07-07T11:58:43Z p_l is a bit surprised that AutoCAD technically has very... lispish interface in places
2015-07-07T11:58:52Z Shinmera: p_l: No, but I'll read the CLIM spec, something I wanted to do for a long time anyway.
2015-07-07T11:59:06Z Shinmera: p_l: Well there is AutoLisp, so
2015-07-07T11:59:39Z hlavaty: autocad was in lisp
2015-07-07T12:00:21Z p_l: hlavaty: afaik it was never in lisp, but used their own AutoLisp (a very archaic dialect) for scripting
2015-07-07T12:00:31Z p_l: (kinda my first meeting with Lisp)
2015-07-07T12:00:41Z Shinmera: AutoLisp is still in use from what I know
2015-07-07T12:00:55Z p_l: Shinmera: it's unkillable, despite AutoDesk's attempts
2015-07-07T12:01:25Z Shinmera: Heh
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2015-07-07T12:03:44Z p_l: they tried at some point by introducing either VBScript as scripting approach directly, or implemented WSH support (the latter would be much more interesting, because it would allow scripting from let's say ECL)
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2015-07-07T12:50:19Z schjetne: Speaking of copyright and licenses, what does Franz mean by "Lisp only offers one choice, which is to link the Library into an executable at build time" in their preamble to the LGPL?
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2015-07-07T12:50:53Z schjetne: Especially since the ability to load code at runtime is part of the spec
2015-07-07T12:51:42Z kami: Hello #lisp
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2015-07-07T12:56:55Z theos: hey kami
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2015-07-07T13:05:41Z p_l: schjetne: it's because LGPL is a bit specific to how runtime linkers work in typical C-based environment vs. CL
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2015-07-07T13:10:04Z fe[nl]ix: schjetne: that's not quite true, see e.g. ECL
2015-07-07T13:11:39Z p_l: also, FASL loading differs a lot... now consider that ACL sells a separate license for including compiler in code distributed outside of company, and iirc you need compiler to load FASLs
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2015-07-07T13:26:04Z pjb: AFAIK, technicalities like how or when derived works are linked are irrelevant for the defnition of derived work and the applicability of licences (in front of a jude) and of copyright.
2015-07-07T13:27:01Z pjb: Remember that copyright applies also to translations of works, and therefore if you go as far as rewriting a software (eg. in a different programming language), it can very well still be a derived work, and remain controlled by the original copyright owner.
2015-07-07T13:27:08Z pjb: So fuck linking options!
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2015-07-07T13:27:38Z schjetne: I'm reading the different licenses in detail right now
2015-07-07T13:28:07Z pjb: schjetne: my point here is that the verbiage of licenses can be irrelevant to a judge applying copyright law.
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2015-07-07T13:28:50Z dlowe: heh. Glad Oracle hasn't laid claim to OpenJVM under that reasoning
2015-07-07T13:29:11Z pjb: schjetne: it's more a problem for the copyright owner issuing the license than for the user.
2015-07-07T13:29:30Z pjb: dlowe: that would make an interesting lawsuit.
2015-07-07T13:29:47Z dlowe: I don't think anyone has tried the "software translation" angle
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2015-07-07T13:30:16Z dlowe: doesn't mean it couldn't happen, of course
2015-07-07T13:30:19Z schjetne: Version 3 of the license seem to resolve the problems from C-centrism (Section 3 can of course be ignored)
2015-07-07T13:30:23Z pjb: dlowe: probably because few programmers have read the copyright law :-)
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2015-07-07T13:31:44Z dlowe: pjb: I think your legal reasoning wouldn't hold up in the US. Copyright here would apply to the source code and binary, not the functionality, even if the functionality was identical.
2015-07-07T13:32:20Z dlowe: A translation of the source code would definitely be a derived work
2015-07-07T13:32:22Z schjetne: The main problem might be that 'executable' isn't defined.
2015-07-07T13:32:33Z pjb: I'm sure it would, given that judges already equate source and binary for this.
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2015-07-07T13:33:41Z pjb: For example, I'm set to take the C sources of GNU emacs and translate them to Common Lisp, as much as possible mechanically, manually otherwise. I want to obtain a CL source that provides the same bug-for-bug functionalities as the C sources. You cannot escape that this will be a derived work, and if I distribute it, it will have to be under the GPL3 like GNU emacs.
2015-07-07T13:33:53Z schjetne: But I'm sure a fasl or saved image file could be reasonably considered an 'executable'
2015-07-07T13:33:54Z dlowe: pjb: agreed.
2015-07-07T13:34:24Z pjb: schjetne: source is executable, with the right processor = compiler+machine (virtual or not).
2015-07-07T13:34:44Z pjb: theorically and legally there's no difference.
2015-07-07T13:34:46Z dlowe: schjetne: it can get pretty hairy if you try to pin it down. That's why we have legal systems in the first place
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2015-07-07T13:37:16Z schjetne: Anyway, it seems the LGPLv3 resolves the problem with C-centrism, without compromising the protection of the user.
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2015-07-07T13:38:21Z schjetne: It's not really good for anything if the user can't load a modified version of the library.
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2015-07-07T13:43:03Z Zhivago: You can do a cleanroom decoupling.
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2015-07-07T13:43:32Z Zhivago: Have one team generate a spec by examining A, and then another team implement the spec without examining A.
2015-07-07T13:43:59Z schjetne: Zhivago: I don't follow
2015-07-07T13:44:08Z Zhivago: It breaks the derivation.
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2015-07-07T13:44:29Z Zhivago: The spec produced by observing A is not derived from the form of A, but from its function.
2015-07-07T13:44:48Z pjb: Zhivago: that doesn't prevent against patent, and I'm not sure it would proctect you against derived work accusations anyways. You could try to say that if you get the same results, it's because it's obvious and trivial.
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2015-07-07T13:44:56Z Zhivago: The implementation produced that satisfies that spec without derivation from A is likewise non-derived.
2015-07-07T13:45:12Z Zhivago: Patent isn't about derivation, so that's a separate dimension.
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2015-07-07T13:45:39Z p_l: pjb: it's the trick to fulfill the inane copyright in USA
2015-07-07T13:45:47Z p_l: in many places, you do not need clean-room
2015-07-07T13:45:57Z Zhivago: pjb: You need clear documentation of the process, etc -- cleanroom work is extremely expensive.
2015-07-07T13:46:20Z schjetne: Zhivago: yeah, I prefer people just honour the LGPL, that's better for everyone
2015-07-07T13:46:45Z schjetne: And I don't intend to include the Franz exceptions either.
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2015-07-07T13:48:37Z schjetne: There is something I wonder about the ECL license as well. ECL is under the GNU Library General Public License version 2 or later. But 2 is the latest by that name, so I'm unsure if it can be distributed under the terms of the LGPLv2.1+
2015-07-07T13:48:59Z schjetne: *the last by that name
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2015-07-07T13:50:20Z Xach: pjb: bad system with cycles!
2015-07-07T13:50:25Z schjetne: Consequently this applies to clasp as well
2015-07-07T13:51:16Z pjb: Xach: Yes, on purpose. Now it has a #+testing in git.
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2015-07-07T13:54:06Z jasom: pjb: I also think it is dubious to claim that clisp is a derived work of readline, but RMS claimed that at one point.
2015-07-07T13:54:47Z pjb: Agreed.
2015-07-07T13:56:16Z schjetne: jasom: linking method notwithstanding?
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2015-07-07T13:57:15Z jasom: schjetne: indeed. I doubt that an optional dependency could ever prohibit you from distributing your softweare under whatever license you so choose (though obviously you must obey the license of any software you distribue *with* it)
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2015-07-07T13:58:13Z jasom: The obvious absurd example would be if someone made a plugin for your software that uses GPLed libraries; that clearly doesn't affect your copyrights.
2015-07-07T14:00:15Z schjetne: That doesn't seem to be the issue with CLISP, though.
2015-07-07T14:00:52Z schjetne: A program that can potentially include readline but doesn't obviously isn't a derived work of readline, and doesn't become one until you put the two together.
2015-07-07T14:00:58Z jasom: You could argue that shipping software with a "just plug in " part encourages users to violate their license to the GPL software, except for the fact that, as far as I can tell, it doesn't violate the license to link software you don't distribute with GPLed software.
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2015-07-07T14:01:52Z jasom: readline is no longer a good example, since there is an API compatible BSD licensed library for that now.
2015-07-07T14:03:08Z H4ns: there is violating the terms of a license and then there is violating the spirit of a license. given that, it is best to either completely avoid the gpl or avoid non-gpl software. all that talk about compatibility is really just nitpickery.
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2015-07-07T14:03:55Z jasom: I think the argument that RMS was making is that shipping the software that way showed an intent to circumvent the license of readline; given that non-negotiable contracts tend to rule against the author, that might be a hard sell, but we don't know because no judge has ruled on this yet.
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2015-07-07T14:05:01Z schjetne: NMAP has a very strict interpretation: https://svn.nmap.org/nmap/COPYING
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2015-07-07T14:05:19Z jasom: H4ns: yes, anytime you violate the spirit of a license you are playing with fire, even if it's clear that you will probably win at trial.
2015-07-07T14:05:23Z schjetne: Even parsing output is considered a derived work
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2015-07-07T14:05:46Z H4ns: jasom: you're not playing with fire, really, you're just being an ass :)
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2015-07-07T14:06:48Z H4ns: jasom: and, actually, an ass only in the definition of those who believe in ownership of rights to software.
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2015-07-07T14:08:11Z jasom: H4ns: I was speaking purely in terms of legal liability; though there is a large overlap between being an ass and being liable for damages.
2015-07-07T14:08:37Z H4ns: heh
2015-07-07T14:08:51Z jasom: of course there's also a large overlap between being an ass and suing for damages.
2015-07-07T14:09:49Z schjetne: H4ns: or those who believe software is for everyone and use copyright law to help with that.
2015-07-07T14:10:09Z Vityok: what is the proper approach to writing robust "generalized" code in Lisp?
2015-07-07T14:10:19Z Vityok: akin to a C++ template or Java generics
2015-07-07T14:10:20Z dlowe: program well
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2015-07-07T14:10:42Z jasom: Vityok: you mean parametric polymorphism?
2015-07-07T14:10:43Z pjb: Do not call functions (libraries) that expect specific types.
2015-07-07T14:10:51Z dlowe: oh, that. What pjb said
2015-07-07T14:11:07Z Vityok: ok, here is the source I've got and want to improve:
2015-07-07T14:11:08Z pjb: For example, some libraries expect simple arrays for no reason.
2015-07-07T14:11:17Z pjb: lisppaste
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2015-07-07T14:11:35Z Vityok: https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match/src/a084ae973cf91c128c70fa053f12a4d0bd01d4be/src/boyer-moore-horspool.lisp?at=default
2015-07-07T14:11:47Z jasom: pjb: For example, some libraries expect simple arrays for performance reasons, because sbcl is an order of magnitude slower when manipulating non-simple arrays
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2015-07-07T14:12:07Z pjb: Then use an implementation where using non-simple arrays is not so slow!
2015-07-07T14:12:29Z Vityok: based on yesterday's criticism I see how I can add typechecks to ensure that the generated functions expecting simple-string handle a string gracefully
2015-07-07T14:12:43Z jasom: pjb: or provide a public API that converts the types for you.
2015-07-07T14:12:49Z pjb: Vityok: well first the name. string-match. No why restrict yourself to strings? vector-match would be better, but the best would be sequence-match.
2015-07-07T14:13:23Z pjb: Vityok: so the defaults for key and test would be identity and eql.
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2015-07-07T14:14:02Z Vityok: well, it started with strings, so the name is kind of a part of its legacy
2015-07-07T14:14:11Z williamyao: pjb: Boyer-Moore-Horspool doesn't seem like it would work very well if the set of possible keys was infinite
2015-07-07T14:14:13Z pjb: Vityok: for an example, check replace-subseq.
2015-07-07T14:14:30Z pjb: williamyao: it can be a finite set of symbols or of integers or of whatever.
2015-07-07T14:14:38Z pjb: Vityok: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq
2015-07-07T14:15:11Z williamyao: That's true.
2015-07-07T14:15:14Z jasom: williamyao: you could replace the array with a hash-table, and then the default value on lookup would be the length of your needle
2015-07-07T14:15:17Z Vityok: pjb: thanks, cause I've thought you are saying about replace and subuseq implementations in different Lisps
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2015-07-07T14:16:01Z pjb: Vityok: well, subseq and replace are generic functions too in CL, so they would also be good examples.
2015-07-07T14:16:13Z Vityok: williamyao: it doesn't work very well even if the set of keys is a finite bound the the char-code-limit
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2015-07-07T14:16:29Z pjb: In general, use MAP instead of MAPCAR or LOOP (:across or :in ?), and use the function in the sequence chapter of clhs.
2015-07-07T14:16:50Z jasom: pjb: technically they are *not* defined to be generic-functions by the standard
2015-07-07T14:16:52Z Vityok: pjb: but the point was to make the code as robust as possible
2015-07-07T14:16:54Z pjb: Notice that most CL implementations currently have char-code-limit = 1114112.
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2015-07-07T14:17:29Z Vityok: it looks like by narrowing accepted types it is possible to achieve a better degree of optimization in SBCL
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2015-07-07T14:18:04Z pjb: or worse, depending.
2015-07-07T14:18:21Z jasom: Vityok: by narrowing accepted types you can sometimes get better performance, and by widening accepted types you get more broadly useful code.
2015-07-07T14:18:28Z Vityok: so far that code works much faster than the standard search
2015-07-07T14:18:44Z jasom: Vityok: do you want it to be faster, or more generic?
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2015-07-07T14:19:18Z Vityok: jasom: so that was the point: sources there are a kind of a template that can be used to generate implementations for specific data types
2015-07-07T14:19:30Z Vityok: but it is a bit ... not very pretty
2015-07-07T14:19:30Z jasom: Also, for a small number of types, you can get better performance by defining a function with an etypecase that dispatches to your type-specialized implementations.
2015-07-07T14:20:00Z Vityok: but then I will have to essentially duplicate sources with only very slight changes
2015-07-07T14:20:05Z p_l: btw, anyone looked at possible mapping between OpenCL and *lisp-like system?
2015-07-07T14:20:25Z pjb: Vityok: but with different types sbcl could generate more specialized and optimized code.
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2015-07-07T14:21:11Z pjb: Vityok: for example, if your input strings are base-string, it may be good to do a special loop for them with base-char, since that will be 8-bit, instead of string and character that will be 32-bit.
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2015-07-07T14:21:46Z Vityok: yep, indeed, but the problem is how to avoid code duplication in an elegant way
2015-07-07T14:22:27Z pjb: Write a macro to generate the different variants from the same source.
2015-07-07T14:22:46Z Vityok: I was able to do this by using a "giant" macro that takes given "keys", "data types" ,etc and generates specialized functions
2015-07-07T14:22:58Z Vityok: but I was wondering if there is a more "elegant" solution
2015-07-07T14:23:25Z dlowe: fast, small, generic. pick two.
2015-07-07T14:23:47Z Vityok: since CL exists for a lot of years already, probably people have found some approach to deal with this problem
2015-07-07T14:24:17Z pjb: Write generic code, that saves your time.
2015-07-07T14:24:24Z dlowe: I think the usual approach is "don't worry so much about execution speed"
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2015-07-07T14:25:09Z Vityok: yeah... only when the difference is minutes vs seconds or an order of magnitude for a substring "search" operation
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2015-07-07T14:26:24Z pjb: Vityok: for example, between the time the SpaceX rocket started to have a problem (detected leak), and the time the human decided to explode it, it was more than 6 seconds. So it doesn't matter if your program detects it in 10 ns or 100 ms, what would matter, is that your program would be able to take the right decision, to separate stages immediately, and to pull the good stage safely away before the explosion of the defective stage,
2015-07-07T14:26:24Z pjb: even if the orbit will be wrong. It could be corrected later or adapted otherwise.
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2015-07-07T14:26:54Z Vityok: my app parses other application logs
2015-07-07T14:26:56Z pjb: What's really dumb, IMO, is to blow the whole rocket up for a little leak.
2015-07-07T14:27:18Z pjb: Vityok: same thing: you will get wrong logs.
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2015-07-07T14:27:55Z dlowe: pjb: even if a little leak is all you detect, it could be an iceberg tip.
2015-07-07T14:27:57Z pjb: Vityok: then, from generic algorithms, you can get fast algorithms by partial execution.
2015-07-07T14:28:14Z Vityok: and there are about 100 keys for differnt problems
2015-07-07T14:29:17Z Vityok: and there millions of lines in a typical logs bundle
2015-07-07T14:29:39Z pjb: You definitely do not want to work on strings.
2015-07-07T14:29:51Z pjb: Instead, read the logs as binary files, and work on bytes.
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2015-07-07T14:30:54Z Vityok: well... yes... https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-faster-input/wiki/Benchmark%20results
2015-07-07T14:31:04Z Vityok: I even did a benchmark for this
2015-07-07T14:31:58Z Vityok: the problem is that I also have a number of regular expressions in my keyset
2015-07-07T14:31:59Z Shinmera: A single TIME is not going to cut it.
2015-07-07T14:33:47Z pjb: Vityok: cf. the COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.ASCII package.
2015-07-07T14:33:57Z Vityok: thanks
2015-07-07T14:34:11Z Vityok: will be looking for the hinted sources
2015-07-07T14:34:59Z Vityok: but I still would like to make this library as useful for others as possible
2015-07-07T14:35:01Z pjb: functions ascii-string ascii-bytes ascii-format bytes= bytes/= bytes< etc.
2015-07-07T14:35:17Z Vityok: :-) cool
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2015-07-07T14:36:13Z Vityok: I also explored with ASCII-only implementations https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match/src/a084ae973cf91c128c70fa053f12a4d0bd01d4be/contrib/ascii-strings.lisp?at=default
2015-07-07T14:36:57Z pjb: Yes, this way. If you want it fast.
2015-07-07T14:37:48Z pjb: You can even have a reader macro so that !"HELO" --> #(72 69 76 79)
2015-07-07T14:37:49Z Vityok: in my dreams I would also like to see an NFA implementation of a regex engine in CL
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2015-07-07T14:38:16Z jasom: For several implementations, their string functions are so highly optimized that I have in the past used iso-8859-1 encodings with strings for binary data. Don't do that, but it is the easiest way to get something within about a factor of 2 of what is beset.
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2015-07-07T14:39:43Z Vityok: jasom: do you recall what implementations these were?
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2015-07-07T14:40:54Z jasom: Vityok: sbcl, ccl, clisp. Though you can't do it with ccl and :external-format on windows, as there is no way I could find to disable \r\n conversion
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2015-07-07T14:41:38Z jasom: Vityok: a big part of this is the slowness of graystreams. There is a fast binary IO library that doesn't use the streams interface that works better than this hack
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2015-07-07T14:42:12Z jasom: e.g. with-output-to-string is faster than vector-push-extend of byte-vectors
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2015-07-07T14:43:51Z jasom: but on sbcl, map-into of a preallocated array is faster than either; on ccl there's something else you need to do (don't recall at this point in time) &ct.
2015-07-07T14:44:38Z jasom: It's been a while since I've been working on something for which performance was that critical.
2015-07-07T14:44:44Z pjb: well, that would depend on the extend parameter. If you use (length vector) as extent parameter, it should be faster to use vector-push-extend, I'd say.
2015-07-07T14:45:43Z oGMo: fast-io sortof tries to abstract this
2015-07-07T14:45:54Z jasom: pjb: right, this is why I said it was the easiest way to "get something within about a factor of 2 of what is best" it also had the advantage of having "good" performance across all implementations (someone submitted a patch that was faster on sbcl, but 8x slower on ccl, for example)
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2015-07-07T14:46:09Z jasom: oGMo: I think that's the one I was thinking of
2015-07-07T14:46:11Z oGMo: but admittedly i've only really optimized for sbcl, i'll take a look at Vityok's results for CCL
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2015-07-07T14:47:26Z jasom: and for no good reason (map 'vector ...) was faster than map-into of a preallocated vector on CCL at the time (It's probably fixed now, as I reported that to the CCL folks)
2015-07-07T14:47:36Z oGMo: also there are some things even fast-io could do considerably faster i think .. i have some optimizations for the read-X functions i think i haven't pushed .. but at least, it's a single place to focus on optimizing
2015-07-07T14:48:20Z jasom: I agree; if you find a performance hack for a given implementation, submit it to fast-io
2015-07-07T14:48:24Z jasom: oGMo: is fast-io yours?
2015-07-07T14:48:28Z oGMo: jasom: yeah
2015-07-07T14:48:33Z jasom: oGMo: it's awesome.
2015-07-07T14:48:40Z oGMo: it's a start ;/
2015-07-07T14:48:45Z jasom: right
2015-07-07T14:48:51Z jasom: the interface is good
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2015-07-07T14:49:45Z jasom: so far it's (at worst) "not-bad" performance in my testing, which beats out every single other library I've tried for binary IO.
2015-07-07T14:50:26Z oGMo: yeah i think the main thing i saw recently was cl-tga reading data in ridiculously fast, and i was trying to match that
2015-07-07T14:51:06Z Shinmera: fast-io was quite nice when I used it, so props for that.
2015-07-07T14:51:08Z oGMo: it just does some simple read-sequence though i think
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2015-07-07T14:51:14Z oGMo: thanks heh
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2015-07-07T14:51:32Z jasom: heh, my favorite patch I received on a project was where I had a struct that was a vector and an offset, and someone submitted a patch to switch it to offset arrays. The code was originally offset arrays, then I switched to copying the array, wich was faster, and finally the struct which was only marginally faster but felt less dirty than doing all that copying
2015-07-07T14:51:55Z oGMo: hah
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2015-07-07T15:26:00Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-07-07T15:26:19Z Shinmera: Good evening, beach.
2015-07-07T15:27:32Z brpocock: howdy.
2015-07-07T15:28:52Z theos: guten tag beach
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2015-07-07T15:35:07Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-07-07T16:04:00Z beach: Shinmera: Is it possible to download your logs for #clasp and #lisp in text format?
2015-07-07T16:05:13Z Shinmera: beach: No, but I'll add that as a feature later today, if it's urgent.
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2015-07-07T16:05:22Z beach: Not urgent.
2015-07-07T16:05:28Z Shinmera: Ok, I'll do it anyway
2015-07-07T16:05:30Z beach: But it would be nice to have at some point.
2015-07-07T16:05:46Z Shinmera: Yeah, the chatlog module is rather... under developed anyway.
2015-07-07T16:06:04Z Shinmera: I think I did add a JSON API, but I don't remember
2015-07-07T16:06:17Z beach: Oh. I didn't mean to give you additional work.
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2015-07-07T16:45:25Z hegel: anyone know if fukamachi hangs out here?
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2015-07-07T16:46:29Z Shinmera: He doesn't.
2015-07-07T16:46:38Z hegel: i'm a python dev getting into lisp and found his stuff on github, seems like he's putting out some good things
2015-07-07T16:46:47Z Shinmera: You can find him on twitter though, @nitro_idiot
2015-07-07T16:46:51Z hegel: does he do irc at all?
2015-07-07T16:46:53Z hegel: ah ok
2015-07-07T16:47:18Z hegel: what's the word on cl21?
2015-07-07T16:47:54Z hegel: i imagine it would have irritated many common lisp veterans, seems a little youthful to me as a project
2015-07-07T16:48:15Z Shinmera: Also nobody to my knowledge actually uses it, so there's that
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2015-07-07T16:48:55Z hegel: it seems kinda dead
2015-07-07T16:49:04Z Shinmera: Probably because nobody uses it.
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2015-07-07T16:51:07Z Shinmera: Either way, people will probably also be less willing to help anyone that actually uses it, because a project like that makes it a lot more annoying to debug beginner's problems/questions.
2015-07-07T16:51:40Z Shinmera: So I would not advocate someone to start out with it, which is ironic, considering it was intended to serve exactly that use.
2015-07-07T16:52:06Z Shinmera: And once you're well-versed enough in CL you probably won't really see much benefit in using it anymore either, since you can just as easily jumble together some libraries without having to replace the CL package.
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2015-07-07T16:52:45Z Shinmera: The only actual benefit it seems to bring is package-local nicknames, but it does that through gross reader hacks, so I would not advocate using it for that purpose either.
2015-07-07T16:53:35Z ecraven: would a patch to slime-media.el that base64 decoded the :data part of a transfered image be acceptable?
2015-07-07T16:53:41Z nyef: Don't we have package-local nicknames through some other system anyway?
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2015-07-07T16:54:00Z Shinmera: Some implementations provide it natively, most don't.
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2015-07-07T16:54:05Z ecraven: as far as i found, only slimer uses it anyway, and that only with :file, not :data
2015-07-07T16:54:39Z Shinmera: For those that do, from what I've heard the API is rather different, so it's probably not easy to unify it.
2015-07-07T16:57:07Z Shinmera: Speaking of overly ambitious projects
2015-07-07T16:57:20Z Shinmera: My current pet thought project is a replacement for ASDF
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2015-07-07T16:57:39Z Shinmera: Something that isn't specifically tailored for CL, but can rather be used as a general build system.
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2015-07-07T17:06:33Z brpocock: I'd seen a private project someone wrote to translate many Gnu Makefiles into ASDF rules, actually.
2015-07-07T17:07:01Z Shinmera: ASDF is a really poor fit for anything but Lisp. And even for that it's arguably a poor fit.
2015-07-07T17:07:45Z brpocock: I believe he was building a C library by running its ./configure script and then driving the rest of the build through ASDF, but it had used some rather lower-level-than-I-use stuff about defining wrapper/:before/&c methods for the different compilation stages.
2015-07-07T17:08:08Z Shinmera: ABCD does that
2015-07-07T17:08:23Z Shinmera: But I stopped working on it exactly because I realised I spent way too much time fighting ASDF.
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2015-07-07T17:22:06Z DGASAU: p_l: JFYI, in Russian Law the situation is exactly what you describe for Poland.
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2015-07-07T17:23:11Z DGASAU: p_l: "public domain" means that the work is not copyrighted nor copyrightable, authorship is still preserved (i.e. you cannot claim you're author of work in public domain).
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2015-07-07T17:23:44Z DGASAU: p_l: before 2008 you certainly could place your own work into public domain.
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2015-07-07T17:35:05Z jasom: Shinmera: for generic build systems, I find redo to be more that sufficient for me. That style, but running lisp functions instead of shell-scripts might be nice.
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2015-07-07T17:35:32Z Shinmera: jasom: Are you referring to https://github.com/apenwarr/redo ?
2015-07-07T17:35:35Z jasom: Shinmera: yes
2015-07-07T17:35:41Z Shinmera: Alright, I'll have a look.
2015-07-07T17:36:08Z Shinmera: My current idea is to have the system adapt different defaults and strategies depending on what language you want to build.
2015-07-07T17:36:16Z jasom: It's extremely minimal
2015-07-07T17:39:28Z jasom: just invoke a shell script with 3 predetermined arguments, and it provides callbacks for the shell script to register information about dependencies
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2015-07-07T17:49:59Z jasom: Shinmera: redo solves this by providing a callback to register dependencies when performing a build.
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2015-07-07T17:50:33Z zyaku: If I'm not using inheritance, is there any reason to use DEFCLASS over DEFSTRUCT?
2015-07-07T17:50:43Z Shinmera: zyaku: Redefinition.
2015-07-07T17:50:49Z jasom: or rather it's "build this if it's out-of-date, and implicitly put it on my list of dependencies for checking if I'm out of date"
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2015-07-07T17:51:37Z Shinmera: jasom: I'm currently not clear on whether having a system that just does dependencies is enough. There might be separate tracking for which parts are affected by a build action.
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2015-07-07T17:51:59Z Shinmera: Either way, there's a lot for me to think about, and at the moment everything is heavily in flux.
2015-07-07T17:53:10Z zyaku: Shinmera: thanks!
2015-07-07T17:53:15Z jasom: Shinmera: single commands that generate multiple-outputs are an issue too
2015-07-07T17:53:33Z Shinmera: jasom: Indeed. Hence my thoughts of having a separate "affecting" thing.
2015-07-07T17:54:07Z Shinmera: But anyway, I don't want to say much at this point because I'm nowhere near sure enough on anything. I'll remember to bring this up again once I have some specific ideas.
2015-07-07T17:54:20Z jasom: redo explicitly doesn't support such things
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2015-07-07T17:55:30Z jasom: djb tends to take the point of view that the rest of the world is wrong when they do things any way but the simplest
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2015-07-07T17:56:34Z Shinmera: I want to make my system modular so you can plug the parts you need on to it. I really dislike that ASDF is this giant monolith. But again, I don't quite know how to do that yet either, so.
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2015-07-07T18:49:31Z Xach: Shinmera: did you see pitman's paper on the topic?
2015-07-07T18:49:51Z Shinmera: Xach: I don't think I did. What was it called?
2015-07-07T18:50:05Z Xach: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Large-Systems.html
2015-07-07T18:50:20Z Shinmera: Ah-- thanks a lot!
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2015-07-07T18:52:27Z Xach: http://xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=allegro+compilation+defsystem&sort=of has some discussion on the topic too
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2015-07-07T19:20:17Z williamyao: (defun tranpose (list) (apply #'map 'list #'list list))
2015-07-07T19:20:39Z williamyao: That's a lot of lists.
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2015-07-07T19:32:12Z shka: williamyao: hey, it's lisp!
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2015-07-07T19:33:18Z shka: folks, right now i'm working on https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/86
2015-07-07T19:33:27Z shka: i wrote code that should work
2015-07-07T19:33:33Z shka: but, here is the problem
2015-07-07T19:33:41Z shka: i can't build ecl with my code in
2015-07-07T19:33:58Z Bike: uh, something wrong with &rest?
2015-07-07T19:34:00Z shka: ;;; Unhandled lisp initialization error
2015-07-07T19:34:02Z shka: ;;; Message:
2015-07-07T19:34:03Z shka: UNBOUND-VARIABLE
2015-07-07T19:34:23Z shka: i'm getting this during compilation of loop2 and core dump
2015-07-07T19:34:48Z Bike: i don't think dotted lists are valid lambda lists.
2015-07-07T19:34:52Z shka: right now i'm scratching my head trying to figure out how to debug it
2015-07-07T19:35:00Z shka: Bike: well, sbcl accepts those
2015-07-07T19:35:10Z Bike: sbcl accepts a lot of things
2015-07-07T19:35:17Z Bike: just use &rest
2015-07-07T19:35:53Z shka: hmmm
2015-07-07T19:36:08Z Bike: clhs 3.4.1
2015-07-07T19:36:08Z specbot: Ordinary Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
2015-07-07T19:36:14Z Bike: grammar's right there, no dots
2015-07-07T19:36:28Z shka: with whole respect, i need jackdaniel's opinion on this subject
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2015-07-07T19:36:46Z Bike: hm. it might be okay in macro lambda lists.
2015-07-07T19:37:12Z Bike: yeah guess it is. i'd still use &rest though.
2015-07-07T19:37:39Z shka: Bike: anyway, no idea how to debug it?
2015-07-07T19:37:53Z Bike: not with just a message of "UNBOUND-VARIABLE", no
2015-07-07T19:38:29Z Bike: if it builds without your patch it presumably is something in your patch, maybe you misspelled something
2015-07-07T19:38:29Z shka: oh, but i think that i know what is wrong
2015-07-07T19:38:39Z dlowe: It works in macro lambda lists through destructuring. It's still better to use &rest or &body
2015-07-07T19:38:42Z shka: Bike: well, MACROS
2015-07-07T19:38:51Z Bike: i don't know what you mean.
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2015-07-07T19:42:03Z shka: i mean that macros makes subtle bugs easy to slip
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2015-07-07T20:01:11Z Shinmera: Xach: Hmm. Naggum makes some good arguments in favour of standardisation there. However, the issue with build systems and the like is that if there isn't an implementation (possibly of a standard) that works "everywhere", people will be very shy to use it. And once there is one, it's very unlikely someone will reimplement the standard (if it exists) because of the effort required to get up to the same level.
2015-07-07T20:01:40Z Shinmera: Xach: I guess what I'm saying is that I have a whole lot of work ahead of myself.
2015-07-07T20:02:40Z Xach: as norvig quoted chaucer: "the lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
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2015-07-07T20:03:33Z Shinmera: Another point from my argument is that, even if you have a standard, people will be very likely to cling to the first implementation and any specific quirks it might exhibit in unspecified areas.
2015-07-07T20:04:05Z Shinmera: (SBCL is an example of that syndrome -- quite a few libraries only work well on it, or not at all on anything else)
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2015-07-07T20:04:54Z Xach: that also happens when you have an implementation
2015-07-07T20:05:08Z Xach: Oh, missed the "even" bit
2015-07-07T20:05:21Z Shinmera: Definitely. I'm just saying that just because there is a standard does not mean that suddenly people will only adhere to that.
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2015-07-07T20:06:55Z Shinmera: Anyway, I'll include the idea of a standard protocol into my thoughts. Maybe I can do something in that vein.
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2015-07-07T20:14:12Z dim: Shinmera: are you familiar with the README first idea? write a README about how to use your thing once it's done first, explaining it to its users, so that you have a big picture of how it (should) works
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2015-07-07T20:15:25Z dim: Shinmera: also I might be able to challenge such a README after having done el-get and PostgreSQL extension system, including add-ons that have been refused, and having written pginstall, a user-land completion of the ideas I wanted to hack into PostgreSQL proper
2015-07-07T20:15:38Z shka: ha!
2015-07-07T20:15:41Z shka: i made it!
2015-07-07T20:15:48Z brpocock: Literate programming? :-)
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2015-07-07T20:16:13Z Shinmera: dim: I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying.
2015-07-07T20:16:33Z Shinmera: dim: "Write a README about how to use your thing once it's done first"? So.. I should write a README once I've written my implementation?
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2015-07-07T20:16:43Z shka: brpocock: noooo, fixed bug in ecl
2015-07-07T20:16:45Z shka is proud
2015-07-07T20:17:12Z brpocock: I meant dim was describing something like Literate Programming :-) But, yay +1 shka
2015-07-07T20:17:45Z shka: oh, sorry
2015-07-07T20:17:49Z brpocock: I'm using ECL for my pet project so I look forward to pulling your fix :-)
2015-07-07T20:17:55Z shka: i got a bit egocenctric for a second
2015-07-07T20:19:02Z k-stz: Shinmera: write a README about how to use your thing (...) first [then implement it]
2015-07-07T20:19:15Z k-stz: that sounds like an interesting approach
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2015-07-07T20:19:37Z Shinmera: k-stz: I guessed that was what he was trying to say, but you know. Ambiguity.
2015-07-07T20:20:43Z Shinmera: Generally I can't work like that because what the interface is and everything might change vastly while the initial implementation is built. Actually writing the software often reveals further complications or possible improvements.
2015-07-07T20:20:54Z dim: Shinmera: before you even start thinking in terms of code
2015-07-07T20:20:58Z Xach: it can be a back-and-forth loop
2015-07-07T20:21:09Z Xach: i found that writing docs helped clarify the implementation, and vice versa
2015-07-07T20:21:13Z dim: Shinmera: http://tom.preston-werner.com/2010/08/23/readme-driven-development.html
2015-07-07T20:21:13Z Shinmera: Yeah.
2015-07-07T20:21:37Z dlowe: huh. I called it doc driven.
2015-07-07T20:21:45Z dim: I've been using that approach for a long while and I find it very good
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2015-07-07T20:21:54Z dlowe: it's a good idea. doc <-> tests <-> code
2015-07-07T20:22:00Z Shinmera: Generally I start out with long brainstorming to get my terminology and core points straight and then move on to a "dream interface" that I would use to solve potential problems. Then I implement the system around it.
2015-07-07T20:22:12Z dim: dlowe: oh no, the docs comes after, the README is the vision about how to use the tool, what you want to solve
2015-07-07T20:22:21Z dim: nothing too detailed
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2015-07-07T20:22:25Z Shinmera: Either way, I usually don't have my projects (really) public while I work on them, so I don't know how contribution would work.
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2015-07-07T20:23:17Z dim: Shinmera: I'm just saying, if you're going to write a README first, I'll happily review it and might even have some comments more or less interesting and to the point
2015-07-07T20:23:29Z Shinmera: Sure. I'll keep it in mind, thanks.
2015-07-07T20:23:29Z dlowe: in my experience, strangers will only contribute when they need immediately what you already have
2015-07-07T20:23:54Z dim: I'd be happy to have something that I can understand to replace ASDF ;-)
2015-07-07T20:23:59Z dlowe: dim: what he's calling a readme is what I call docs :)
2015-07-07T20:24:07Z dim: hehe
2015-07-07T20:24:10Z Shinmera: And I call it 'interface driven'
2015-07-07T20:24:28Z dlowe: Just don't give it a four letter name of adjacent keyboard letters
2015-07-07T20:24:33Z dim: I'm too lazy to do it proper, but docs for me needs to cover in general 3 publics: (end-)users, admins and hackers
2015-07-07T20:24:35Z Shinmera: I won't, don't worry
2015-07-07T20:24:46Z dim: it's ok that the hackers docs are in the code itself, comments etc
2015-07-07T20:24:53Z jsnell_: trivial-hjkl
2015-07-07T20:24:53Z Shinmera: I disagree
2015-07-07T20:25:06Z Bike: mk-defsystem
2015-07-07T20:25:07Z dim: but the real docs should address both how to use and how to operate the thing you're building, IME
2015-07-07T20:25:25Z Shinmera: Even internals that nobody but a programmer should touch should be explained and properly documented in a separate file.
2015-07-07T20:25:49Z dim: separate file I don't know about that, I'm not good at reading them
2015-07-07T20:26:03Z Shinmera: I meant 'separate' in the same way that about.html or README.md is separate
2015-07-07T20:26:39Z Shinmera: (My example for this is Qtools, which has a section that explains how the internals work)
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2015-07-07T20:29:10Z brpocock: The “overview of how the bits go together” doc, as opposed to docstrings for each function …
2015-07-07T20:29:24Z Shinmera: Yeah.
2015-07-07T20:29:51Z Shinmera: The 'why's as well
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2015-07-07T20:34:16Z jasom: VBNM Very Better than gNu Make
2015-07-07T20:34:44Z ynchromeshs: Hi folks, If my process running the Swank server is printing to standard error and that's appearing in my *inferior-lisp*, how hard would it be to get it to print to *error-output* (as well or instead of *inferior-lisp*) so I can see it in my REPL?
2015-07-07T20:34:48Z brpocock: Strangely, I have no /usr/bin/build
2015-07-07T20:35:22Z brpocock: How is that name not Taken?
2015-07-07T20:36:22Z Bike: maybe it's the build engine they used in duke nukem
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2015-07-07T20:36:23Z Xach: ynchromeshs: not too hard. one way is to set the *inferior-lisp* thread's value of *error-output* to a broadcast stream
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2015-07-07T20:40:24Z ynchromeshs: Xach: Thanks, I'll investigate that in the morning.
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2015-07-07T20:48:30Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: what do you mean ASDF is monolithic ?
2015-07-07T20:49:21Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: Everything is in one giant file and ASDF continuously tries to pack everything anyone might want to do with ASDF into itself.
2015-07-07T20:49:39Z Shinmera: Rather than having a system with a lightweight core accompanied by various extensions that provide additional functionality.
2015-07-07T20:50:24Z fe[nl]ix: if your core build system is extensible QA becomes a nightmare
2015-07-07T20:50:33Z fe[nl]ix: been there with maven
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2015-07-07T20:51:13Z pjb: Shinmera: it's a specification of asdf, to be deliverable as a single asdf.lisp file.
2015-07-07T20:51:25Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: I don't know if that's a necessity or a coincidence.
2015-07-07T20:51:30Z Shinmera: pjb: I know.
2015-07-07T20:51:37Z pjb: Notice that nowadays, the source of asdf is spread over several file, IIRC, and concatenated in the right order to deliver asdf.lisp
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2015-07-07T21:01:58Z grees: does someone know a solution to this: i use emacs + slime. I wrote a function which just loops and reads from a buffer and prints the lines on the screen! when i call that function in a repl which was started in a normal terminal it just works as expected but inside emacs it doesn't print the lines from the buffer on the screen. Only if interrupt the loop i get everything which was read printed!
2015-07-07T21:02:23Z Bike: probably need to finish-output and such
2015-07-07T21:03:03Z grees: Bike: I do use force-output
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2015-07-07T21:14:18Z pjb: grees: your question is very confusing.
2015-07-07T21:14:46Z pjb: How do you get lines from the buffers from CL? How do you print on the screen with emacs?
2015-07-07T21:15:21Z pjb: Why do you expect us to debug your code without providing it? http://paste.lisp.org/new
2015-07-07T21:15:51Z grees: pjb: its not a problem with the code since it works in a normal repl
2015-07-07T21:16:14Z pjb: grees: WFM.
2015-07-07T21:16:46Z pjb: Since you don't want to give your code, I write my own, and it fucking works for me very nicely both in a xterm and in slime.
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2015-07-07T21:17:25Z aeth: Are binary trees in Lisp usually represented as cons (i.e. (car node) and (cdr node)) or lists (i.e. (car node) and (cadr node)) ? Or something else?
2015-07-07T21:17:49Z Bike: conses if i'm not doing anything too complicated.
2015-07-07T21:17:55Z grees: pjb: one sec pls^^
2015-07-07T21:18:03Z pjb: aeth: take quicklisp, identify all occurences of binary trees, count them, and count the occurences where a cons is used vs. the others.
2015-07-07T21:18:32Z Bike: it's not like lists versus conses is terribly important, though.
2015-07-07T21:18:37Z pjb: aeth: notice that useful binary trees have labels attached to each node, so already, a single cons cell is insufficient to represent a labelled binary tree node.
2015-07-07T21:18:50Z nyef: I think that the last time I was dealing with a binary tree in lisp, the representation was "2k-long vectors of unsigned-byte 8 per node" or something equally silly.
2015-07-07T21:19:26Z nyef: (Okay, they were B-trees, not binary trees, and the representation was dictated by an existing file, but it still counts, doesn't it?)
2015-07-07T21:19:38Z Bike: i wrote really dumb addition chain exponentiation and just used conses, but i had another function that printed them as a completely different format for readability
2015-07-07T21:19:43Z aeth: pjb: yes I noticed that there are issues with conses, especially if the conses can have lists as their content. I'm not sure how to tell a cons from a list (since lists show up in CONSP as they are technically conses)
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2015-07-07T21:19:48Z grees: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151185
2015-07-07T21:19:50Z pjb: aeth: but mostly, those questions are of no importance. What matters, is that you define a functional abstraction.
2015-07-07T21:20:02Z jasom: aeth: last time I wrote a tree, I used a struct
2015-07-07T21:20:36Z Bike: grees: um, you're not using finish-output or force-output in the loop.
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2015-07-07T21:21:01Z Bike: and also you're not using it on standard output anyway.
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2015-07-07T21:22:23Z aeth: It's sad that it's not as simple as conses, though, because conses as trees can be traversed really easily with tail recursion.
2015-07-07T21:22:54Z pjb: aeth: that's why I invented TRONSES.
2015-07-07T21:23:02Z aeth: I was just looking over programming forums to see what the non-Lisp crowd are talking about and this was a thread I found. https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/39d0u1/google_90_of_our_engineers_use_the_software_you/
2015-07-07T21:23:04Z Bike: twice on each node without non-tail calls, huh
2015-07-07T21:23:06Z grees: Bike: you're right sry
2015-07-07T21:23:31Z Bike: grees: does it work as you expect if you throw (finish-output) into the loop?
2015-07-07T21:24:01Z aeth: If the comments are right it looks like the answer is as simple as (defun invert (node) (cond ((consp node) (cons (invert (cdr node)) (invert (car node)))) (t node))) assuming that conses/lists can't be elements of the tree and it's a cons tree
2015-07-07T21:25:13Z aeth: Also assuming it's SBCL or something else that can handle that kind of recursion (I think that will be optimized? I've seen stuff like that done, but mostly in Scheme)
2015-07-07T21:25:15Z Bike: interview questions are so sad.
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2015-07-07T21:25:32Z Bike: aeth: well, those aren't tail calls, is the issue.
2015-07-07T21:25:36Z aeth: ah
2015-07-07T21:25:40Z Bike: also there's two of them.
2015-07-07T21:25:55Z aeth: so this will blow the stack if the tree's too big
2015-07-07T21:26:24Z Bike: the maximum stack depth is just the tree height, so i wouldn't worry about it.
2015-07-07T21:26:34Z jasom: aeth: walking a tree requires some state for backtracking; you can do it recursively, which keeps the state on the stack, or iteratively which requires you to explicitly maintain the state
2015-07-07T21:27:24Z aeth: jasom: right, the only list/tree algorithms I have memorized off the top of my head are the recursive ones because of Scheme.
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2015-07-07T21:28:47Z jasom: aeth: list algorithms need not be recursive, tree algorithms must
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2015-07-07T21:29:42Z jasom: aeth: scheme won't optimize away the recursive calls to tree walking either (at least for all but the last child you visit for each node) as it's not tail-recursive
2015-07-07T21:30:07Z pjb: grees: works for me, once you debug it! http://paste.lisp.org/+38NL/1
2015-07-07T21:30:10Z aeth: Yes, I see that now. Because there's two. I guess I was being overly optimistic in what can be optimized.
2015-07-07T21:31:04Z pjb: grees: if you can't count up to 4, you can use #.(length "PONG")
2015-07-07T21:31:33Z Bike: aeth: not just that there's two, but also that you do something with the result other than immediately return it.
2015-07-07T21:31:53Z Bike: tail calls are goto with rename, you see
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2015-07-07T21:34:00Z aeth: Hmm... I know how you can use conses or lists as the tree data structure while being able to store conses or lists as data, too. Maybe you can just CONS :not-a-node or something to lists/conses and then check the CAR for that in the tree algorithms.
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2015-07-07T21:34:58Z pjb: aeth: check https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/Nno1qbWeP2M/DemL4JflZgwJ
2015-07-07T21:35:10Z grees: pjb: what do you mean with: if you cant count to 4? dont get it
2015-07-07T21:35:14Z Bike: i'd just use structs or classes or something.
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2015-07-07T21:35:51Z pjb: grees: you had: (replace line "PONG" :end1 5) and this signals an error. This is probably why you don't get any output.
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2015-07-07T21:39:03Z grees: pjb: hm that doesn't change the problem..
2015-07-07T21:39:14Z pjb: As you can see, it works perfectly for me.
2015-07-07T21:39:24Z grees: i see
2015-07-07T21:39:48Z Bike: did you try fixing force-output use, or what
2015-07-07T21:39:53Z pjb: grees: http://paste.lisp.org/+38NL/2
2015-07-07T21:40:17Z grees: Bike: yes i tryed
2015-07-07T21:40:36Z pjb: of course, it would be good to add finish-output or force-output in any case.
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2015-07-07T21:47:17Z williamyao: aeth: You can actually walk a tree in constant _stack_ space; consider: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151187
2015-07-07T21:47:30Z williamyao: calling it with (invert some-tree #'identity)
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2015-07-07T21:48:04Z grees: pjb: Bike: aaah i had the force-output at the wrong place , thx 4 help
2015-07-07T21:48:05Z williamyao: But like jasom said, you need some state stored somewhere; in this case inside the closures that end up going on the heap.
2015-07-07T21:48:22Z williamyao: Er, in constant stack space without using explicit iteration.
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2015-07-07T21:51:47Z pjb: also, having parent links can help
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2015-07-07T22:18:02Z aeth: williamyao: clever
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2015-07-07T23:52:25Z Fare: writing a portable variant of probe-file that doesn't return a truename is surprisingly hard.
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2015-07-07T23:54:18Z Fare: I thought I had one, but actually no, it didn't work on some implementations on Windows.
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2015-07-08T00:12:13Z pillton: Fare: What do you want it to return?
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2015-07-08T00:16:53Z Fare: an absolute path that may not be fully resolved.
2015-07-08T00:17:20Z Fare: (or even a relative path, to support perverse cases without an accessible root)
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2015-07-08T00:20:51Z pillton: I'm not sure I follow. What is wrong with something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151194
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2015-07-08T00:22:08Z Fare: you may not have access rights
2015-07-08T00:22:13Z Fare: it may be a directory
2015-07-08T00:22:33Z Fare: the merging with d-p-d might be tricky
2015-07-08T00:22:39Z Fare: d-p-d might be logical
2015-07-08T00:22:47Z Fare: the pathname may be logical
2015-07-08T00:22:58Z Fare: d-p-d may be relative
2015-07-08T00:23:09Z Fare: you may be on windows
2015-07-08T00:23:25Z pillton: Clisp's probe-file doesn't work on directories.
2015-07-08T00:23:32Z Fare: the pathname may look like a file, but name a directory
2015-07-08T00:23:40Z Fare: etc.
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2015-07-08T00:24:50Z Fare: and yes, you want if possible your semantics to be portable enough to be useful on all platforms, if possible
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2015-07-08T00:38:52Z Fare: in any case, it's hours of lost work building a portable abstraction on top of 15+ CLs on 4+ platforms
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2015-07-08T00:39:19Z Fare: and I admit some of the variants are just plain broken.
2015-07-08T00:39:27Z pillton: Yeah.
2015-07-08T00:39:36Z Fare: (but who cares about gcl, genera, corman, xcl ?(
2015-07-08T00:39:49Z Fare: or mocl or clasp
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2015-07-08T00:40:35Z pillton: I don't think it is an implementation we need. It is a CDR.
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2015-07-08T00:40:59Z Fare: so that 10 years from now, we'll have a common implementation?
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2015-07-08T00:42:17Z Fare: I actually believe what CL ideally needs is someone to complete iolib on both unix and windows -- and maybe then get that standardized
2015-07-08T00:42:29Z Fare: but hey, not gonna happen.
2015-07-08T00:42:49Z holycow: it will if someone pays for it
2015-07-08T00:43:53Z holycow: the age old problem
2015-07-08T00:44:04Z holycow: and then, someone comes along finances it and then it is done all wrong
2015-07-08T00:44:04Z holycow: heh
2015-07-08T00:44:27Z holycow: good night
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2015-07-08T00:45:38Z Fare: interesting how the Scheme community tries to do it through standardization, too.
2015-07-08T00:46:01Z Fare: It still take years, even there, with plenty of discrepancy between implementations still.
2015-07-08T00:47:49Z pillton: I/O is complicated. I'm not sure standardising it is worth while.
2015-07-08T00:47:55Z pillton: It falls in to the same bucket as threads.
2015-07-08T00:48:00Z pillton: In my opinion.
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2015-07-08T00:52:38Z Fare: or maybe instead of trying to make CL portable, effort should be poured into making one implementation great, e.g. SICL, or whatever
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2015-07-08T01:02:06Z Fare: grrr, just the treatment of #p"" vs #p"./" is a bitch, and there's no normalization function.
2015-07-08T01:02:32Z Fare: oh, and I'm pretty sure "." and ".." don't exist on genera, and maybe not in macos9.
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2015-07-08T01:05:38Z Fare: btw, does .. mean up or back?
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2015-07-08T01:17:55Z jasom: Fare: it means "parent"
2015-07-08T01:18:43Z jasom: not "back" since foo/bar/../ might not be the same as foo/
2015-07-08T01:20:09Z nyef: ... In the case that bar is a symlink or hard-link?
2015-07-08T01:20:50Z jasom: nyef: you can't hard-link directories, so symlink only
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2015-07-08T01:21:18Z nyef: Fair enough. I didn't think a hard-link made too much sense with a directory, but wasn't sure.
2015-07-08T01:22:17Z jasom: I don't know if it's in POSIX anywhere but unix essentially guarantees a tree, if you don't follow links or cross FS boundaries
2015-07-08T01:22:53Z pillton: Fare: Couldn't we just introduce a dynamic variable *string-to-pathname-function* to solve this problem?
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2015-07-08T01:24:23Z jasom wants readers to allow you to hook into conversion from tokens to symbols
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2015-07-08T01:24:56Z pillton: jasom: Yes. That is a good one too.
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2015-07-08T01:25:58Z pillton: I would actually prefer *object-to-pathname-function*.
2015-07-08T01:27:42Z Zhivago: Why not target namestrings instead?
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2015-07-08T01:28:28Z Fare: jasom: that's a lot of if's. I also remember having unreadable or dangling parents preventing introspection of the absolute path.
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2015-07-08T01:29:17Z jasom: yes
2015-07-08T01:29:26Z jasom: well there is no absolute patch in that case
2015-07-08T01:29:50Z Fare: so shoud probe-file fail, or return a relative path?
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2015-07-08T01:31:38Z jasom: fail
2015-07-08T01:32:01Z pillton: clhs 19.1.3
2015-07-08T01:32:02Z specbot: Parsing Namestrings Into Pathnames: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_ac.htm
2015-07-08T01:32:18Z pillton: Zhivago: "because the format of namestrings is implementation-dependent."
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2015-07-08T01:33:48Z pillton: The general pattern is converting one representation in to a pathname. People clearly find the current conversion frustrating, so why not give them the ability to implement the conversion themselves.
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2015-07-08T01:35:04Z jasom: probe-file returns a truename, a truname is a filename, and a filename must be a handle that can be used to refer to a file in the file system. There is no such handle for a file like this, so probe-file should fail
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2015-07-08T01:39:33Z Fare: what about a non-truenaming variant of probe-file ?
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2015-07-08T01:49:34Z jasom: then it gets down to what do you mean by "exists"
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2015-07-08T01:55:09Z jasom: signaling file-error actually might be better
2015-07-08T01:55:16Z jasom: An error of type file-error is signaled if the file system cannot perform the requested operation.
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2015-07-08T02:00:17Z jasom: I think there is a strong case for saying that a deleted file doesn't exist so probe-file should fail
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2015-07-08T02:02:35Z nyef: Doesn't PROBE-FILE have a defined, non-error semantic for a non-extant file?
2015-07-08T02:02:44Z nyef: Or am I misremembering?
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2015-07-08T02:03:13Z jasom: nyef: it does, the question is does this file exist?
2015-07-08T02:04:13Z jasom: I originally said it should return nil, but offered the option of file-error if you think the file does exist
2015-07-08T02:04:54Z nyef: ... And now I'm lost. What's the specific situation here?
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2015-07-08T02:07:12Z jasom: nyef: an orphaned file on unix with a still-open file-stream
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2015-07-08T02:08:03Z nyef: The file exists until the stream is closed, but it is not accessible via the filesystem, so you can't get a name for it.
2015-07-08T02:08:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-07-08T02:08:11Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-07-08T02:08:41Z jasom: nyef: if it exists then probe-file should return it's truename
2015-07-08T02:08:51Z jasom: s/it's/its
2015-07-08T02:09:06Z jasom: nyef: if it doesn't exist you return nil
2015-07-08T02:09:12Z nyef: But does it still HAVE a truename?
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2015-07-08T02:09:21Z jasom: nyef: clearly not
2015-07-08T02:09:48Z drmeister: Hi beach! We were just over in #clasp mulling over a problem that we encountered with some strange looking MIR. stassats found a nice, small test case. If you have some time, could I show it to you?
2015-07-08T02:09:51Z jasom: I would argue it doesn't even have a filename by the CLHS definition, since there isn't a handle by which you can referrence it in the filesystem
2015-07-08T02:09:54Z nyef: So, it exists, because it still takes up space on the disk, and you still have a file descriptor for it.
2015-07-08T02:10:01Z nyef: Right, no filename.
2015-07-08T02:10:09Z nyef: Maybe it's no longer a FILE?
2015-07-08T02:10:11Z jasom: so either nil or signal file-error is correct
2015-07-08T02:10:30Z jasom: nyef: no good, it is still of type file-stream, so it is a pathname designator
2015-07-08T02:10:46Z beach: drmeister: Sure, but please show the HIR instead.
2015-07-08T02:10:56Z drmeister: Sure.
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2015-07-08T02:11:53Z jasom: If you think it exists, then signalling file-error is clearly the right thing to do (since the file system cannot perform the operation of looking up its truename)
2015-07-08T02:12:00Z jasom: If you think it doesn't exist, returning nil is correct
2015-07-08T02:12:27Z drmeister: beach: Here is the code that generates the problem (crash)
2015-07-08T02:12:35Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda () (block nil (let ((form (block in (let (*) (return-from in)) (return-from nil nil)))) form))) :debug t)
2015-07-08T02:12:36Z jasom: I lean towards "it doesn't exist" but I see the argument for the other side
2015-07-08T02:13:41Z nyef: clhs 20.1.2
2015-07-08T02:13:42Z specbot: File Operations on Open and Closed Streams: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/20_ab.htm
2015-07-08T02:14:13Z nyef: Third paragraph, second sentence.
2015-07-08T02:14:15Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/inM443q.png
2015-07-08T02:14:31Z nyef: Pretty much explicitly licenses a NIL result.
2015-07-08T02:15:07Z drmeister: beach: I think the problem is at the top - the G2054 variable
2015-07-08T02:15:55Z jasom: nyef: the question isn't what the spec allows, but what is correct semantics for unix.
2015-07-08T02:16:16Z drmeister: In the MIR there is a Fetch in the outermost function - something that I haven't encountered before. It tries to fetch a cell from a closed over environment but the environment is nil --> crash.
2015-07-08T02:16:16Z beach: drmeister: What's the problem with it?
2015-07-08T02:16:53Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/ArGjUizU/mir.pdf
2015-07-08T02:17:49Z drmeister: Note - on the left, under "Start" the first thing that happens is a "Fetch" - of what environment? This is the outermost function and I've always run it in the top level environment.
2015-07-08T02:18:09Z beach: So this is the result of the escape analysis?
2015-07-08T02:18:39Z drmeister: I'm not sure. I should look and see what happens between the HIR I posted and this MIR.
2015-07-08T02:18:44Z drmeister: Checking...
2015-07-08T02:18:52Z nyef: jasom: The file no longer has a truename... And PROBE-FILE returns the truename, therefore follow the contract for TRUENAME, which is a FILE-ERROR.
2015-07-08T02:19:53Z beach: drmeister: You confused me, because this is not really what I call MIR. What I call MIR has address calculations exposed.
2015-07-08T02:20:58Z drmeister: Right - sorry. It's not clear to me where it stops being HIR and starts being MIR.
2015-07-08T02:21:16Z drmeister: Mostly because I barely use address calculations yet.
2015-07-08T02:21:18Z beach: It is MIR once you replace CAR-INSTRUCTION by MEMREF...
2015-07-08T02:21:33Z beach: And READ-CELL by the same.
2015-07-08T02:22:13Z drmeister: Right - and I should do that soon.
2015-07-08T02:22:32Z beach: OK, let me start by checking that I can reproduce the problem here.
2015-07-08T02:24:18Z beach: drmeister: Bad news. It doesn't crash here.
2015-07-08T02:24:27Z drmeister: Great - thank you. I thought it might be a consequence of how values are returned by RETURN-FROM across function boundaries.
2015-07-08T02:24:35Z drmeister: beach: It won't crash for you.
2015-07-08T02:24:47Z drmeister: Do you invoke the outer function?
2015-07-08T02:24:50Z beach: Yes.
2015-07-08T02:25:08Z Fare: drmeister, btw, I watched your presentation eventually, and wow, awesome! Congratulations.
2015-07-08T02:25:30Z beach: drmeister: I'll check the details. It could be that my translation hides the problem.
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2015-07-08T02:28:59Z Fare: so a limitation of CL seems that it can only process files that have a truename?
2015-07-08T02:29:17Z Fare: and must compute the truename of every file?
2015-07-08T02:30:29Z beach: drmeister: It is going to take some time, because I am not quite awake yet. Some people might get impatient in the meantime.
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2015-07-08T02:31:32Z Zhivago: fare: Well, a truename need not be unique.
2015-07-08T02:32:23Z Zhivago: fare: Doesn't it just boil down to not being logical in the final analysis?
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2015-07-08T02:36:32Z beach: drmeister: Since I don't do the escape analysis here, that would explain why it doesn't crash here.
2015-07-08T02:36:57Z beach: drmeister: continuing my investigation...
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2015-07-08T02:37:25Z drmeister: No problem.
2015-07-08T02:38:21Z beach: drmeister: Remind me what the next step is! Is it PROCESS-CAPTURE-VARIABLES?
2015-07-08T02:38:31Z beach: CAPTURED
2015-07-08T02:38:36Z drmeister: Checking.
2015-07-08T02:39:10Z beach: ... after generating HIR, that is.
2015-07-08T02:39:53Z drmeister: Immediately after the first HIR I pasted is PROCESS-CAPTURED-VARIABLES.
2015-07-08T02:40:00Z drmeister: I can generate HIR after that step as well
2015-07-08T02:40:12Z beach: It's OK.
2015-07-08T02:40:31Z drmeister: I'll identify the step that's doing it.
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2015-07-08T02:41:45Z beach: drmeister: There is already a discrepancy at the HIR level between your code and mine.
2015-07-08T02:41:51Z drmeister: The problem could be on my side - maybe I need to enclose the outermost function in an environment.
2015-07-08T02:42:16Z drmeister: Maybe I need to enclose the outermost function in a closed over environment.
2015-07-08T02:42:50Z beach: I don't seem to have the equivalent of G2054.
2015-07-08T02:43:00Z drmeister: Hmm
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2015-07-08T02:43:22Z Fare: beach: do you have a formal or semi-formal way of encoding the invariants for each of your passes?
2015-07-08T02:43:38Z Fare: do they look like algrebaic data types?
2015-07-08T02:43:39Z drmeister: G2045?
2015-07-08T02:44:07Z Fare: can you reset the gensym counter before generating the examples?
2015-07-08T02:44:09Z drmeister: Sorry, G2054 (in an ellipse)
2015-07-08T02:45:29Z beach: Fare: Not at the moment.
2015-07-08T02:45:32Z drmeister: These particular gensyms have very similar names.
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2015-07-08T02:49:48Z drmeister: Here are the HIR transformations that I'm using. It's the PROCESS-CAPTURE-VARIABLES that is creating the Fetch that causes the crash.
2015-07-08T02:50:07Z drmeister: But the problem may not be the Fetch but rather that I am not enclosing the outermost function in an environment
2015-07-08T02:50:11Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/85TWmFTU/
2015-07-08T02:50:46Z drmeister: Although, how I would determine that I need to enclose it in an environment eludes me.
2015-07-08T02:51:11Z drmeister: With Cleavir, I've relied on enclose-instruction to do that for me.
2015-07-08T02:51:24Z beach: drmeister: I can't keep up.
2015-07-08T02:51:38Z drmeister: There's no hurry.
2015-07-08T02:51:55Z drmeister: Take your time. I'll work on something else.
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2015-07-08T02:52:23Z beach: drmeister: I see an ELIMINATE-SUPERFLUOUS-TEMPORARIES in there.
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2015-07-08T02:54:04Z beach: drmeister: Are you still here?
2015-07-08T02:54:12Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-07-08T02:54:17Z beach: drmeister: I see an ELIMINATE-SUPERFLUOUS-TEMPORARIES in there.
2015-07-08T02:54:23Z beach: Is that normal?
2015-07-08T02:54:41Z drmeister: Yes, I started using eliminate-superfluous-temporaries as soon as you fixed it.
2015-07-08T02:55:23Z beach: drmeister: But, we discussed this, and I told you that it is not working and that you shouldn't use it. You already demonstrated a problem with it, and I told you the approach is naive and doesn't work.
2015-07-08T02:55:43Z drmeister: Oh - I thought you meant the old approach and that you fixed it.
2015-07-08T02:55:49Z drmeister: I'll comment it back out.
2015-07-08T02:55:52Z beach: drmeister: The problem you showed at the time was pretty much identical to the one you are showing me now.
2015-07-08T02:55:59Z drmeister: Ah!
2015-07-08T02:56:22Z drmeister: Sorry, I misunderstood - I thought you had fixed it. I'll comment it out.
2015-07-08T02:56:38Z beach: I have not fixed it, and I won't in the foreseeable future.
2015-07-08T02:57:43Z drmeister: Got it.
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2015-07-08T02:58:17Z drmeister: Trying again.
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2015-07-08T03:06:42Z drmeister: I've turned off eliminate-superfluous-temporaries, and then verified that I turned it off and the problem persists.
2015-07-08T03:07:39Z beach: Now that is very strange, because it looked exactly like the kind of problem that eliminate-superfluous-temporaries would create.
2015-07-08T03:09:28Z pjb: Fare: (defun probe-file* (not-true-path) (when (probe-file not-true-path) not-true-path)); what's hard in that?
2015-07-08T03:10:22Z pjb: pillton: probe-file is not specified to work on directories. clisp provides ext:probe-directory
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2015-07-08T03:12:32Z alusion: (lambda (who) (cond ((string= who "pjb") '(bro do you even lisp)) (t nil)))
2015-07-08T03:12:35Z beach: drmeister: There is something fishy in there. I don't have an UNWIND in my HIR code, but you do.
2015-07-08T03:12:41Z alusion: is that line correct
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2015-07-08T03:14:02Z drmeister: Well, that is something. I wonder why.
2015-07-08T03:14:13Z beach: drmeister: In your HIR, there is a precalc-value-ref: '*:0
2015-07-08T03:14:19Z beach: drmeister: What does that mean?
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2015-07-08T03:15:52Z beach: drmeister: Oh, I see what it is. Never mind.
2015-07-08T03:16:14Z drmeister: That means get a load-time-value. stassats put the * in there - it is the special variable * and it's being bound to NIL.
2015-07-08T03:16:22Z beach: Yes, yes, I get it.
2015-07-08T03:16:33Z drmeister: I already had the description typed out.
2015-07-08T03:17:08Z pjb: Fare: an implementation can define physical pathnames (ie. truenames) however it wants. An open file of which you delete the last link, still has a devid and an inode. Therefore you can still build a physical "pathname" to designate it.
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2015-07-08T03:18:21Z pjb: Fare: and besides the implementation specific definitions imposed by the standard, implementations can provide extensions to CL. POSIX:PROBE-FILE or whatever with whatever specification you like.
2015-07-08T03:19:00Z beach: drmeister: Can you give me the HIR before you call the HIR transformations?
2015-07-08T03:19:16Z drmeister: Sure.
2015-07-08T03:19:42Z drmeister: Before TYPE-INFERENCE?
2015-07-08T03:19:55Z beach: Yes, before my-hir-transformations.
2015-07-08T03:20:24Z beach: Or before it does its first thing.
2015-07-08T03:22:47Z drmeister: Working...
2015-07-08T03:24:23Z pillton: pjb: Yes. It took me by surprise all those years ago.
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2015-07-08T03:25:29Z drmeister: Here you go: http://i.imgur.com/3jCSo9v.png
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2015-07-08T03:27:14Z drmeister: Or do you want something earlier?
2015-07-08T03:27:26Z beach: I don't know yet. I don't think so.
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2015-07-08T03:27:39Z beach: I am thinking this one looks normal, but I need a few more minutes.
2015-07-08T03:27:43Z pjb: pillton: you don't need to probe directories, since we have ENSURE-DIRECTORIES-EXIST.
2015-07-08T03:27:54Z pjb: ;-)
2015-07-08T03:28:47Z pillton: pjb: But no DELETE-DIRECTORY.
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2015-07-08T03:30:05Z beach: drmeister: I believe this HIR is OK.
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2015-07-08T03:30:20Z pillton: pjb: Do you have a view on incorporating a mechanism for arbitrary transformations from strings to pathnames?
2015-07-08T03:30:34Z beach: drmeister: The G2092 is the is the static environment, and since you don't have any captured variables, it is not used.
2015-07-08T03:32:01Z drmeister: Generating some more after following transforms in anticipation.
2015-07-08T03:32:02Z pjb: pillton: what about defun?
2015-07-08T03:32:27Z pjb: (defun arbitrary-transformation-from-string-to-pathname (string) …) ; --> pathname
2015-07-08T03:32:49Z pjb: as in: (pathname string) --> pathname.
2015-07-08T03:33:18Z beach: drmeister: Hold on....
2015-07-08T03:33:19Z pillton: pjb: Please don't do that. I was under the impression that you had already read the conversation above.
2015-07-08T03:33:33Z beach: drmeister: There is an input to the UNWIND-INSTRUCTION.
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2015-07-08T03:34:37Z beach: drmeister: The UNWIND-INSTRUCTION doesn't take any inputs.
2015-07-08T03:35:51Z beach: drmeister: I need to define * as a special variable in my environment and then generate HIR again, so see whether I have the same thing.
2015-07-08T03:36:00Z drmeister: Oh dear.
2015-07-08T03:37:16Z drmeister: Good eyes. I've been staring at these for hours trying to figure out what was wrong.
2015-07-08T03:43:37Z beach: drmeister: My unwind does not have an input.
2015-07-08T03:46:20Z drmeister: Hmm.
2015-07-08T03:46:28Z drmeister: This is what I had reduced the form to: (block nil (let ((form (BLOCK main (LET ((CORE::*HANDLER-CLUSTERS* nil)) (RETURN-FROM main (FOO))) (RETURN-FROM main (return-from nil nil))))) form))
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2015-07-08T03:47:30Z drmeister: I don't know if that gives any clues
2015-07-08T03:48:20Z drmeister: Would it help to look at the AST?
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2015-07-08T03:48:57Z beach: I can't keep up.
2015-07-08T03:49:06Z beach: I am still staring at my HIR.
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2015-07-08T03:51:58Z beach: drmeister: I think we need to figure out why your unwind has an input and mine doesn't.
2015-07-08T03:52:09Z drmeister: I'm digging.
2015-07-08T03:52:40Z beach: drmeister: Since this is before any common transformations, something must have introduced it.
2015-07-08T03:53:39Z beach: drmeister: Is your introduction of landing pads an independent phase? That is, is it possible to look at the HIR before the landing pads are introduced?
2015-07-08T03:54:10Z drmeister: Checking.
2015-07-08T03:56:49Z drmeister: If you would like to leave this with me for a while - I can figure out why the UNWIND-INSTRUCTION has an input.
2015-07-08T03:57:07Z beach: Sure.
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2015-07-08T04:22:06Z drmeister: The problem is in my CONVERT-FUNCTIONS - I haven't tracked it down completely but the UNWIND is fine before and has that input after.
2015-07-08T04:23:13Z beach: OK, so I'll let you look at it some more?
2015-07-08T04:23:32Z drmeister: beach: Ah, your UNWIND doesn't have inputs - but my INDEXED-UNWIND does.
2015-07-08T04:24:11Z drmeister: It's coming back to me now.
2015-07-08T04:24:28Z drmeister: I should have specialized LABEL so that it prints a different label.
2015-07-08T04:25:13Z drmeister: My INDEXED-UNWIND instruction needs a value to know where it will unwind to.
2015-07-08T04:25:57Z drmeister: This was necessary to use C++ exception handling to implement UNWIND.
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2015-07-08T04:26:49Z beach: OK, then let's look at the HIR after captured variables have been processed.
2015-07-08T04:27:28Z beach: drmeister: Aside from that input, I think it looks OK.
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2015-07-08T04:33:02Z beach: drmeister: The problem is related to your input of unwind.
2015-07-08T04:33:14Z beach: Because that input results in the Fetch.
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2015-07-08T04:33:53Z drmeister: Ok.
2015-07-08T04:34:50Z beach: I see in the phase 1 HIR that the variable that is input to the unwind is captured.
2015-07-08T04:34:54Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/6auUkQUJ/mir.pdf
2015-07-08T04:35:03Z beach: It is written by one function and read by another.
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2015-07-08T04:35:44Z beach: Definitely related to that.
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2015-07-08T04:36:29Z beach: Oh, but now it looks fine I think.
2015-07-08T04:36:38Z drmeister: Ok, so I have to provide an closed over environment
2015-07-08T04:36:40Z beach: Because you actually create a cell.
2015-07-08T04:36:51Z beach: Oh, no my bad.
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2015-07-08T04:38:25Z beach: I am not thinking straight.
2015-07-08T04:38:56Z beach: I guess I don't understand what the input to the unwind contains.
2015-07-08T04:40:06Z drmeister: I'm trying to recall the details.
2015-07-08T04:40:26Z beach: Normally, when you have this kind of input, it's that there is a constant that has been hoisted.
2015-07-08T04:40:40Z drmeister: When a function is entered that has a landing pad I think it pushes a value onto a stack
2015-07-08T04:40:43Z beach: So, in that case, the top-level function must provide an environment with that constant in it.
2015-07-08T04:41:43Z drmeister: I think the INDEXED-UNWIND throws a C++ exception with that frame-id value and the landing pads keep unwinding until they get an exception that contains their matching frame-id value.
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2015-07-08T04:42:37Z beach: The question here is who supplies the value of that input to the unwind.
2015-07-08T04:43:58Z drmeister: Here - I'll set up a case that works.
2015-07-08T04:44:23Z beach: If it is the output of the landing-pad-named-enter instruction, I assume that it has to be passed as an argument.
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2015-07-08T04:45:15Z drmeister: Which of the outputs of the enter instruction is the closed over environment? Is it the first output?
2015-07-08T04:45:25Z beach: Yes, I think so.
2015-07-08T04:45:42Z beach: So here it is G2092:0 and it is not used.
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2015-07-08T04:47:54Z beach: But then, since G2094:0 is a captured variable, it must have a cell for it in the static environment.
2015-07-08T04:48:19Z drmeister: Which HIR/MIR graph are you referring to? I posted several.
2015-07-08T04:49:04Z beach: http://i.imgur.com/3jCSo9v.png
2015-07-08T04:49:21Z beach: This is the phase 1 HIR.
2015-07-08T04:49:39Z beach: In that graph, G2094:0 is captured.
2015-07-08T04:50:05Z beach: It is an argument to the function defined by landing-pad-named-enter.
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2015-07-08T04:52:04Z beach: So I guess a cell should be created for it, and written and then that cell should be passed to en enclose of the enter NIL:0 instruction.
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2015-07-08T04:52:58Z beach: Here https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/6auUkQUJ/mir.pdf
2015-07-08T04:53:04Z beach: you do create a cell.
2015-07-08T04:53:20Z beach: And you do put the argument into that cell.
2015-07-08T04:53:57Z beach: And that cell is passed to the enclose, so it looks fine.
2015-07-08T04:54:27Z beach: Looks good to me.
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2015-07-08T04:56:27Z drmeister: Then the question is why is there a Fetch in the outer function?
2015-07-08T04:56:43Z beach: Yes, that's a good question.
2015-07-08T04:56:54Z drmeister: That's what is causing the crash.
2015-07-08T04:57:07Z beach: OK, I was looking at the wrong fetch. :(
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2015-07-08T04:58:14Z drmeister: Also, a bit of housekeeping - why doesn't the label of unwind print as "indexed-unwind" - I had specialized (defmethod cleavir-ir-graphviz::label ((instr indexed-unwind-instruction)) all along. If that had worked we might have saved some time.
2015-07-08T04:58:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/zYTkYHOC/
2015-07-08T05:00:41Z beach: I see no particular reason why the outermost function should supply anything to the landing-pad-named-enter.
2015-07-08T05:00:54Z beach: Let me do some conversion here and see if I get the same thing.
2015-07-08T05:01:17Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/4A6EGMca/mirAnnotated.pdf
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2015-07-08T05:02:41Z drmeister: I've annotated the MIR. The red oval surrounds the offending Fetch. The cyan oval contains the closed over environment that contains the cell Fetched by that Fetch - does it not? It's being fed into FORM - why?
2015-07-08T05:03:16Z beach: I also did process-captured-variables, and I don't have that fetch.
2015-07-08T05:03:26Z beach: But I do have a lot more temporaries.
2015-07-08T05:03:37Z beach: Are you sure you removed the call to eliminate-superfluous-temporaries?
2015-07-08T05:04:19Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-07-08T05:04:35Z drmeister: Let me check to make sure I don't call it somewhere else.
2015-07-08T05:04:43Z drmeister: I'm starting to grow paranoid
2015-07-08T05:05:07Z drmeister: Yes, it's commented out
2015-07-08T05:05:19Z beach: Maybe I do have that fetch after all.
2015-07-08T05:06:52Z drmeister: Could you display your HIR?
2015-07-08T05:07:35Z beach: I could, but it wouldn't help much.
2015-07-08T05:07:43Z beach: It looks very different from yours.
2015-07-08T05:08:37Z beach: OK, I am pretty sure I also have a fetch in the topmost function.
2015-07-08T05:08:45Z beach: I need to figure out why.
2015-07-08T05:09:06Z drmeister: It's this transformation that inserts it: cleavir-hir-transformations:process-captured-variables
2015-07-08T05:09:11Z drmeister: Which makes sense.
2015-07-08T05:09:14Z beach: Sure.
2015-07-08T05:09:17Z drmeister: It processes captured variables.
2015-07-08T05:09:24Z drmeister is learning
2015-07-08T05:09:36Z beach: I just called it, and I do have a top-level fetch as well.
2015-07-08T05:09:49Z beach: It will take me a large part of the day to figure out why.
2015-07-08T05:10:59Z drmeister: It appears that prior to that transformation every ENTER-INSTRUCTION has as its first output the closed over environment but that closed over environment is not the input for anything - do you see that as well?
2015-07-08T05:11:24Z beach: Yes, but it is used by the transformation.
2015-07-08T05:11:35Z beach: Nothing to worry about.
2015-07-08T05:12:17Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/KlPFGyF.png
2015-07-08T05:12:24Z drmeister: That was before the PROCESS-CAPTURED-VARIABLES transformation.
2015-07-08T05:12:36Z beach: Yes, I know.
2015-07-08T05:12:50Z beach: Though perhaps it should be a separate variable for each function.
2015-07-08T05:12:52Z drmeister: G1856 is an output of three ENTER-INSTRUCTIONs but not the input for anything.
2015-07-08T05:12:59Z beach: Yes, yes, yes. I know.
2015-07-08T05:13:04Z beach: It's the static environment.
2015-07-08T05:13:06Z drmeister: Doesn't it need to be an input of something to generate a closure?
2015-07-08T05:13:27Z beach: It is not used until captured variables are processed.
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2015-07-08T05:14:03Z beach: Before captured variables are processed the sharing across functions is implicit.
2015-07-08T05:14:04Z drmeister: Oh, I see what you are saying. It's a placeholder until captured variables are identified.
2015-07-08T05:14:13Z beach: Yes.
2015-07-08T05:14:23Z drmeister: So are there any shared variables in there?
2015-07-08T05:14:28Z drmeister: Looking...
2015-07-08T05:14:32Z beach: No.
2015-07-08T05:14:50Z beach: Only the input to your unwind
2015-07-08T05:15:05Z beach: Nothing in the top-level function.
2015-07-08T05:15:20Z drmeister: There would have to be a shared variable between the Start function (top-level) and one of the other functions - correct?
2015-07-08T05:16:10Z beach: "would have"? In order for there to be a fetch. Yes, I think so.
2015-07-08T05:16:21Z drmeister: Here it is right after PROCESS-CAPTURED-VARIABLES: http://i.imgur.com/unCqPsD.png
2015-07-08T05:16:50Z beach: Right.
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2015-07-08T05:17:25Z drmeister: There's a clue here - isn't there?
2015-07-08T05:17:35Z beach: Yes.
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2015-07-08T05:17:57Z drmeister: G2034 will be the same cell as G2032 - correct?
2015-07-08T05:18:26Z beach: Yes, I suppose so.
2015-07-08T05:18:57Z drmeister: So for some reason it's being used to initialize FORM
2015-07-08T05:19:01Z drmeister: Hmm
2015-07-08T05:19:04Z beach: It is probably NIL.
2015-07-08T05:19:15Z drmeister: I'm not leading anywhere - I'm just trying to learn to read this better.
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2015-07-08T05:26:06Z beach: drmeister: There is no point in your waiting for me to fix it in real time.
2015-07-08T05:26:20Z drmeister: No problem.
2015-07-08T05:26:47Z drmeister: I was just providing as much support as I could while we were investigating.
2015-07-08T05:26:58Z beach: Sure, thanks.
2015-07-08T05:27:23Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out why I'm not getting these labels:
2015-07-08T05:27:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/fXhGT33B/
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2015-07-08T05:27:57Z drmeister: We could have saved some time if they had been printing and you saw that they weren't exactly your UNWIND-INSTRUCTIONs
2015-07-08T05:28:00Z beach: drmeister: do #'label and then use the SLIME inspector to see what methods you have.
2015-07-08T05:28:24Z beach: or #'cleavir-ir-graphviz::label I guess.
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2015-07-08T05:29:01Z beach: [assuming Clasp provides the methods to SLIME]
2015-07-08T05:29:13Z drmeister: Yeah :-)
2015-07-08T05:29:20Z drmeister: Let's see
2015-07-08T05:29:46Z drmeister: So #'cleavir-ir-graphviz::label and then C-c S-i?
2015-07-08T05:29:57Z beach: I use the mouse.
2015-07-08T05:30:16Z beach: Right click on the function presentation, I think.
2015-07-08T05:30:23Z beach: My fingers know it. I don't.
2015-07-08T05:31:00Z drmeister: No, it doesn't provide that yet.
2015-07-08T05:31:32Z beach: "it" = Clasp and "that" = the list of methods?
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2015-07-08T05:32:35Z beach: mop generic-function-methods
2015-07-08T05:32:36Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-methods.html
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2015-07-08T05:37:17Z drmeister: beach: Yes, Clasp (it) doesn't provide the list of methods (that).
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2015-07-08T05:38:24Z drmeister: beach: I see why the label isn't working. It's because of the pink arrow you specialize on draw-instruction.
2015-07-08T05:38:37Z drmeister: Should I specialize on draw-instruction?
2015-07-08T05:39:25Z drmeister: I guess I should specialize on draw-instruction for INDEXED-UNWIND-INSTRUCTION
2015-07-08T05:40:36Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-07-08T05:41:10Z akkad: hi
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2015-07-08T05:41:45Z beach: drmeister: Yes, do that.
2015-07-08T05:41:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2015-07-08T05:41:59Z drmeister: Hi jackdaniel
2015-07-08T05:42:24Z beach: drmeister: There is probably a reason why LABEL is not exported.
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2015-07-08T05:43:25Z drmeister: That would be it. I see the value of not adding AST nodes and new instructions but I don't know how I would do this without them.
2015-07-08T05:44:41Z beach: Oh, it *is* exported. Hmm.
2015-07-08T05:44:57Z drmeister: I think I asked for that to be exported.
2015-07-08T05:45:04Z beach: Heh, OK.
2015-07-08T05:48:50Z ecraven: regarding slime, is master the right branch to do patches against?
2015-07-08T05:51:17Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2015-07-08T05:58:41Z zacts: hi
2015-07-08T05:58:58Z zacts: hm... I just can't make up my effing mind.
2015-07-08T05:59:15Z zacts: learn CL and scheme before Haskell? or learn Haskell before CL and scheme
2015-07-08T05:59:27Z ecraven: just learn them all
2015-07-08T05:59:34Z Zhivago: It doesn't much matter -- they are quite unrelated.
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2015-07-08T06:00:05Z zacts: Zhivago: oh really?
2015-07-08T06:00:12Z Zhivago: Yes.
2015-07-08T06:00:23Z zacts: So the functional aspect of Haskell won't directly carry over into scheme or lisp?
2015-07-08T06:00:34Z zacts: make that, common lisp, not 'lisp'
2015-07-08T06:00:42Z Zhivago: schema and CL are eager procedural languages.
2015-07-08T06:00:48Z Zhivago: Haskel is a lazy functional language.
2015-07-08T06:00:50Z zacts: eager?
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2015-07-08T06:00:57Z Zhivago: Yes.
2015-07-08T06:01:10Z zacts: no, I don't know if eager is a technical term in this context?
2015-07-08T06:01:11Z zacts: :-)
2015-07-08T06:01:19Z Zhivago: It is a technical term in this context.
2015-07-08T06:01:24Z zacts: what does it mean?
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2015-07-08T06:01:32Z Zhivago: It is the opposite of lazy.
2015-07-08T06:01:38Z zacts: oh
2015-07-08T06:01:41Z zacts: I see, ok
2015-07-08T06:02:04Z zacts: ecraven: well of course
2015-07-08T06:02:12Z zacts: but in which order?
2015-07-08T06:02:34Z zacts: SICP mentions laziness at the end of the book I think...?
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2015-07-08T06:03:00Z zacts: so perhaps scheme and CL would give a more well rounded picture of different styles of programming... I'm wondering
2015-07-08T06:03:07Z akkad: loading drakma on ecl I Get Cannot modify locked readtable #.
2015-07-08T06:03:09Z ecraven: zacts: the one with the smallest specification is Scheme
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2015-07-08T06:03:24Z Zhivago: zacts: Perhaps.
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2015-07-08T06:03:42Z ecraven: the one with the best libraries might be CL
2015-07-08T06:03:50Z ecraven: certainly the one least like other languages is haskell :{)
2015-07-08T06:04:03Z zacts: ok
2015-07-08T06:04:11Z zacts: I think SICP
2015-07-08T06:04:33Z french_boy: should i learn haskell from great good or another book?
2015-07-08T06:04:43Z french_boy: or should i learn lisp (scheme) from SICP?
2015-07-08T06:04:44Z zacts: french_boy: I've heard the great good book sucks these days
2015-07-08T06:04:54Z zacts: from bitemyapp on #haskell-beginners
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2015-07-08T06:05:23Z theos: french_boy learn common lisp!
2015-07-08T06:05:26Z zacts: everyone on the haskell channels recommends bitemyapp's learnhaskell github page for a path to learn Haskell
2015-07-08T06:05:29Z zacts: but hm...
2015-07-08T06:05:38Z zacts: I'm not there yet, obviously... so just fwiw
2015-07-08T06:05:53Z french_boy: which functional language is actually worth my time: haskell or lisp?
2015-07-08T06:06:02Z Zhivago: lisp is procedural.
2015-07-08T06:06:10Z french_boy: simon peyton jones claims that haskell is useless, so i'm skeptical.
2015-07-08T06:06:18Z Zhivago: As to what your time is worth, I do not know.
2015-07-08T06:06:34Z akkad ponders where the idea that lisp is functional comes from
2015-07-08T06:06:44Z theos: french_boy common lisp is functional too
2015-07-08T06:06:48Z ecraven: akkad: it can be, can't it?
2015-07-08T06:06:54Z Zhivago: It lends itself to a functional style of programming.
2015-07-08T06:06:55Z ecraven: lisp can be whatever (and often has been)
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2015-07-08T06:07:10Z french_boy: so, as a first language, you guys recommend lisp?
2015-07-08T06:07:15Z french_boy: (common lisp)
2015-07-08T06:07:32Z theos: french_boy first and last. you can make your own languages with CL
2015-07-08T06:08:47Z french_boy: but isn't the "wizard book" sicp taught in scheme? also, how good is a book called land of lisp?
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2015-07-08T06:10:38Z akkad: "can be functional" vs IS functional.
2015-07-08T06:10:44Z akkad: bash can be functional :P
2015-07-08T06:11:00Z theos: if it can be functional then it IS functional
2015-07-08T06:11:04Z ecraven: french_boy: there's also "realm of racket" I think
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2015-07-08T06:15:38Z theos: french_boy learn lisp can be challenging. but learning a new language is challenging. learn CL macros. learn CLOS.
2015-07-08T06:15:57Z theos: learn/learning
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2015-07-08T06:19:30Z akkad: "if php can be OO, then it is OO"
2015-07-08T06:20:35Z akkad: Easy to spot a truly functional language. "Does it let me compile my crap code and do the right thing despite my incorrect usage, or do I fight the compiler until my middle finger bleeds"
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2015-07-08T06:40:05Z jackdaniel: 3 classes of compilers: functional, GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) and FIGO (first in, garbage out) ^_^
2015-07-08T06:40:24Z jackdaniel: and please, don't force me to defend this joke :p
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2015-07-08T06:41:31Z H4ns: is sbcl 1.2.13 known to contain bugs in optimization diagnostics? i see it fail while compiling flexi-streams, allegedly because of an invalid format string in sbcl
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2015-07-08T06:53:41Z theos: did someone just compare php with CL? :P
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2015-07-08T07:06:48Z jackdaniel: hue hue
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2015-07-08T07:15:47Z akkad: jackdaniel: nice
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2015-07-08T07:26:54Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/1a8197f4f290c2628e78 how do you use implementation directives with items like this? syntax here.
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2015-07-08T07:44:32Z loke: akkad: I'd use BORDEAUX-THREADS
2015-07-08T07:44:41Z loke: but other than that, wthat code looks b0rked
2015-07-08T07:45:59Z akkad finally gets green-threads working
2015-07-08T07:46:14Z loke: #+foo applies to the next form read. so your first #+ applies to the entire rest of the function, not just one line
2015-07-08T07:46:15Z akkad: loke on ecl bordeaux-threads works?
2015-07-08T07:46:21Z loke: akkad: yes
2015-07-08T07:46:33Z akkad gets nothing but errors
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2015-07-08T07:47:08Z akkad: specifically "MP is not supported on this platform" from bordeaux on ecl
2015-07-08T07:47:26Z loke: akkad: you need to compile your ecl with multithreading support
2015-07-08T07:47:55Z loke: it works fine here for me
2015-07-08T07:48:09Z em is now known as emma
2015-07-08T07:48:11Z loke: > (bordeaux-threads:all-threads)
2015-07-08T07:48:12Z loke: (# #)
2015-07-08T07:48:12Z loke: > (bordeaux-threads:make-thread (lambda () (sleep 1) (print 'foo)))
2015-07-08T07:48:12Z loke: #
2015-07-08T07:48:12Z loke: >
2015-07-08T07:48:12Z loke: FOO
2015-07-08T07:48:18Z loke: oops. sorry for the spam
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2015-07-08T07:49:20Z akkad: odd works now
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2015-07-08T07:49:39Z akkad: must have been unrelate
2015-07-08T07:49:40Z akkad: d
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2015-07-08T07:54:04Z jackdaniel: akkad: you could have outdated ecl, ecl prior to 15.2.21 was bt incompatible
2015-07-08T07:55:11Z jackdaniel: or compiled it in some weird manner
2015-07-08T07:59:11Z akkad: yeah like 13.x.x
2015-07-08T07:59:26Z akkad: what is the authoritive source for ecl?
2015-07-08T08:00:34Z akkad: https://gitlab.com/groups/embeddable-common-lisp ?
2015-07-08T08:02:52Z akkad: thanks loke.
2015-07-08T08:05:06Z jackdaniel: akkad: yes, that
2015-07-08T08:05:18Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl
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2015-07-08T08:06:15Z akkad: oh right. that's why, fixing broken c code that does not compile is more a pita than green threads :P
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2015-07-08T08:08:49Z akkad: loke: what is your version? not finding tags, or releases in their repo that seem to conform with any release management
2015-07-08T08:11:35Z akkad: master seems reasonable
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2015-07-08T08:17:12Z loke: ecl-15.3.7
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2015-07-08T08:18:33Z jackdaniel: akkad: use 15.2.21 on unixes, or develop head
2015-07-08T08:19:07Z jackdaniel: unless you don't care about encodings (15.3.7 has a bug regarding that)
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2015-07-08T08:20:44Z loke: jackdaniel: Really? Is that why cl-memcached fails with an error saying that :|utf-8| is an illegal encoding?
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2015-07-08T08:21:32Z jackdaniel: loke: I'm afraid yes. I'll wrap new release in upcoming month, but until then 15.2.21 is best for nixes
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2015-07-08T08:22:04Z jackdaniel: or develop branch, which is not throughfully tested, but considered stable
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2015-07-08T08:22:47Z loke: jackdaniel: Is this why the cffi stuff fails too?
2015-07-08T08:22:56Z loke: Specifically, the cffi-grovel
2015-07-08T08:23:08Z jackdaniel: I don't know
2015-07-08T08:23:27Z jackdaniel: could you test it with develop branch and submit a bugreport if there still is a problem?
2015-07-08T08:23:41Z loke: jackdaniel: Which branch/repository is that?
2015-07-08T08:23:50Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/commits/develop
2015-07-08T08:24:08Z jackdaniel: branch develop, repository on gitlab
2015-07-08T08:24:46Z jackdaniel: there is also automatic mirror on common-lisp.net
2015-07-08T08:25:33Z loke: what's the actual git repository url to clone?
2015-07-08T08:27:01Z jackdaniel: git clone https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl.git -b develop
2015-07-08T08:27:20Z jackdaniel: altough develop branch is default , so -b develop is redundant
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2015-07-08T08:30:02Z loke: thanks
2015-07-08T08:30:35Z jackdaniel: np :)
2015-07-08T08:31:00Z loke: cloning now. Gitlab is pretty slow
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2015-07-08T08:35:38Z loke: still fails by the way
2015-07-08T08:36:06Z loke: I'm filing a bug report
2015-07-08T08:37:40Z akkad: wow, 73k vs 14->40MB. ecl must not be including all the quicklisp stuff
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2015-07-08T08:41:53Z loke: Issue 89
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2015-07-08T08:42:51Z jackdaniel: loke: thanks
2015-07-08T08:42:55Z jackdaniel: akkad: what do you mean?
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2015-07-08T08:46:17Z akkad: standalone delivered binary size
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2015-07-08T08:46:23Z jackdaniel: loke: it can't find amqp.h (don't know what this header is)
2015-07-08T08:46:40Z akkad: rabbitmq?
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2015-07-08T08:47:35Z jackdaniel: akkad: ecl is mainly libecl and encodings by size, ecl is just a repl
2015-07-08T08:47:56Z jackdaniel: you can strip lib binary if you find it too huge
2015-07-08T08:47:59Z akkad: that would explain a lot
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2015-07-08T08:49:08Z jackdaniel: if you build against local gmp and bdwgc, it should be even smaller
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2015-07-08T08:49:52Z akkad: k
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2015-07-08T08:50:28Z jackdaniel: by local I mean system pre-installed (if you have them, configure should autodetect it)
2015-07-08T08:50:43Z akkad: yeah it's just going to move the size to libraries it links to
2015-07-08T08:50:55Z akkad: sbcl bin is going to be easier to deliver
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2015-07-08T08:51:39Z loke: jackdaniel: It would be nice to be able to DISASSEMBLE compiled functions in ecl
2015-07-08T08:51:51Z loke: I.e. to see the generated C code.
2015-07-08T08:51:51Z jackdaniel: I agree :)
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2015-07-08T08:52:10Z loke: is there so other way to see the generated code?
2015-07-08T08:52:20Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-07-08T08:52:25Z phadthai: you can disassemble the bytecode versions, but for now you'd have to use objdump to disassemble the ecl compiled code
2015-07-08T08:52:33Z jackdaniel: but don't remember how to switch it
2015-07-08T08:52:43Z phadthai: if I remember someone had some slime patch for such
2015-07-08T08:52:59Z jackdaniel: loke: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15163967/ecl-dump-c-source-for-every-compilation-unit-and-its-dependencies
2015-07-08T08:53:14Z jackdaniel: (setf c::*delete-files* nil)
2015-07-08T08:53:43Z jackdaniel: akkad: if you are concerned on size, then sbcl doesn't seem perfect choice either
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2015-07-08T08:55:38Z akkad: you take what you can :P
2015-07-08T08:55:49Z akkad: I'm just seeing what the design tradeoffs are between the two
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2015-07-08T08:56:50Z jackdaniel: akkad: I think for both sbcl end ecl you can reduce many binaries sizes with approach taken with cl-launch - creating multibinary (like busybox) with shared fasls etc
2015-07-08T08:57:05Z jackdaniel: or any supported implementation essentially
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2015-07-08T08:58:22Z akkad: nice
2015-07-08T08:58:26Z akkad: will check that out
2015-07-08T08:58:45Z jackdaniel: also see, what are real sizes after building standalone binaries - it might be smaller
2015-07-08T09:00:20Z akkad: yeah virtual lib sizes will complicate it
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2015-07-08T09:02:03Z jackdaniel: loke: how is rabbit library called? I don't have it on system, so no wonder it fails here
2015-07-08T09:02:55Z loke: What linux distributin are you on?
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2015-07-08T09:03:01Z loke: You need rabbitmq-c
2015-07-08T09:03:06Z loke: It's in most distros.
2015-07-08T09:03:13Z jackdaniel: void, but I have also guix, neither has rabbit* on repos
2015-07-08T09:03:30Z loke: https://github.com/alanxz/rabbitmq-c
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2015-07-08T09:06:23Z akkad: wow, that blew up. /me sticks with sbcl... ecl just grew to consume double the ram
2015-07-08T09:06:42Z loke: jackdaniel: Is there an ECL version of condition-wait that takes a timeout?
2015-07-08T09:07:18Z loke: I used an extension to bordeaux-thread:condition-wait that accepts a timeout, but I only support abcl, ccl and sbcl right now. I'd like to add ecl support.
2015-07-08T09:07:45Z loke: bordeaux calls into mp:condition-variable-wait, but it doesn't seem to accept a timeout
2015-07-08T09:07:57Z akkad: now if you can deliver static bins
2015-07-08T09:08:18Z loke: Oh wait... condition-variable-timedwait seems to be what I need
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2015-07-08T09:08:33Z loke: argh... but it's not implemented. I keep answereding my own questions here
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2015-07-08T09:09:36Z jackdaniel: loke: I'll check in free time if you fill issue with label "feature"
2015-07-08T09:09:58Z jackdaniel: I've got to go now, be back in few hours
2015-07-08T09:10:14Z loke: jackdaniel: thanks!
2015-07-08T09:10:29Z jackdaniel: sure :)
2015-07-08T09:12:42Z loke: Issue 90
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2015-07-08T09:32:59Z Matthew: Hey guys, I have one problem and I can't find solution quickly enough...
2015-07-08T09:33:02Z Matthew is now known as Guest49287
2015-07-08T09:33:12Z Guest49287: How can I access last element of an array/ a string?
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2015-07-08T09:35:38Z Shinmera: clhs elt
2015-07-08T09:35:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_elt.htm
2015-07-08T09:35:40Z Shinmera: clhs length
2015-07-08T09:35:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_length.htm
2015-07-08T09:38:00Z edgar-rft: Guest49287: (aref (length ))
2015-07-08T09:38:11Z Shinmera: edgar-rft: That will signal an error.
2015-07-08T09:38:24Z edgar-rft: in which case?
2015-07-08T09:38:28Z Shinmera: In all cases.
2015-07-08T09:38:37Z Guest49287: 1- length
2015-07-08T09:38:38Z Guest49287: thanks
2015-07-08T09:38:55Z edgar-rft: oh, I see, I'm dumb...
2015-07-08T09:38:55Z Guest49287: edgar-rft: arrays are indexed from 0 :)
2015-07-08T09:40:09Z Shinmera: Actually it won't signal an error in one case, but it will still give you unexpected behaviour: If your array has a fill-pointer and has an actual array size greater than the fill-pointer.
2015-07-08T09:40:48Z Shinmera: Hence why you should use ELT, which checks that it is within bounds of the fill-pointer, if it exists.
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2015-07-08T09:44:50Z Shinmera: (in this case of last element it won't matter of course because length will be equal to the fill-pointer, if a fill pointer exists)
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2015-07-08T09:45:43Z edgar-rft: Thanks Sinmera! I just found ELT's note in CLHS: "AREF may be used to access vector elements that are beyond the vector's fill pointer."
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2015-07-08T09:52:12Z edgar-rft: But even then a simple ELT with an index of (1- length) will signal a TYPE-ERROR with empty strings or arrays: (elt "" (1- (length ""))) => Error: Invalid index -1, what means you must additionally test for empty sequences.
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2015-07-08T09:53:04Z Shinmera: Sure, but an empty sequence doesn't have a last element to begin with, so that's not really part of the original question.
2015-07-08T09:53:15Z edgar-rft: That's true.
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2015-07-08T09:57:43Z dim: hehe, While it might be syntactically convenient for some common applications in compiled-only languages under Unix, MAKE does not represent a theory of how to maintain systems.
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2015-07-08T09:58:18Z Shinmera: It always struck me odd that Make is seen as anything else but a bit more convenient batch files.
2015-07-08T09:58:38Z Shinmera: Since that's really all it is.
2015-07-08T09:59:07Z p_l: Shinmera: Well, I see it as an experiment that escaped the lab... :D
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2015-07-08T09:59:51Z Shinmera: p_l: I wonder how many things in common usage today are escaped test subjects.
2015-07-08T10:00:36Z dim: well I prefer makefiles to complex shell scripts, but really I'm not writing shell scripts anymore and if possible not ever again
2015-07-08T10:00:51Z dim: that said, even when I like Make for what it does, it's quite limited
2015-07-08T10:00:56Z Shinmera: Colleen: worse
2015-07-08T10:00:56Z Colleen: Just because something is worse does not excuse something bad.
2015-07-08T10:01:03Z dim: hehe, nice one
2015-07-08T10:01:57Z Shinmera: Anyway, build systems are difficult to get right because of the large amount of variety in what you might want to do, and the complex relationships that arise to properly describe such a system.
2015-07-08T10:02:33Z dim: scons, cmake, make, qmake, gnumake, and plenty others have tried, yes
2015-07-08T10:02:33Z p_l: Shinmera: /bin/dd's cli arguments and even the name itself are an elaborate joke that is missed on most people these days :)
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2015-07-08T10:03:14Z p_l: Make's use of TAB character is legacy of it being an experiment in using lex/yacc
2015-07-08T10:04:56Z dim: dd -- copy and convert ; cc was already taken
2015-07-08T10:05:11Z dim: must be my favorite unix humour instance ;-)
2015-07-08T10:06:02Z loke: dim: as was cd and dc
2015-07-08T10:06:04Z p_l: dim: actually it's older than CC
2015-07-08T10:06:19Z p_l: though that one is also good :D
2015-07-08T10:06:46Z loke: You guys know about any library to help converting sexps between CL and clojure?
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2015-07-08T10:06:56Z mrottenkolber: Hi
2015-07-08T10:07:03Z p_l: dim: dd = data definition or data declaration, iirc, from IBM jCL
2015-07-08T10:07:49Z mrottenkolber: I get "SWANK/BACKEND:ACTIVATE-STEPPING not implemented" when pressing S on a frame in Slime on Clozure CL. Any ideas whats wrong?
2015-07-08T10:07:54Z loke: http://www.tutorialspoint.com/jcl/jcl_dd_statement.htm
2015-07-08T10:08:10Z loke: mrottenkolber: ccl doesn't support stepping, does it?
2015-07-08T10:08:43Z mrottenkolber: loke: I didn't know that.
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2015-07-08T10:14:39Z mrottenkolber: :(
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2015-07-08T11:32:59Z chrnybo: Hi, how would you match a list in a case statement? http://paste.lisp.org/+38O4
2015-07-08T11:34:54Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: fare-quasiquote
2015-07-08T11:35:31Z Shinmera: or just use a COND
2015-07-08T11:35:48Z Shinmera: or a TYPECASE. I don't really know what you want from your example.
2015-07-08T11:36:18Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: check out backwards-parenscript (via bhyde) - it does what you're asking for
2015-07-08T11:36:32Z gabriel_laddel: "structural pattern matching"
2015-07-08T11:36:44Z gabriel_laddel: backwards parenscript doesn't compile though
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2015-07-08T11:37:53Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: an example https://github.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune/blob/master/browser/js-to-ps.lisp#L137
2015-07-08T11:38:04Z chrnybo: Shinmera: I've unwounded a truth table in order to give helpful feedback on which parameters to a function that are missing or superfluous. Just wanted to narrow it down.
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2015-07-08T11:39:59Z dtw: CASE uses EQL (object identity) for comparison. You need COND for other tests.
2015-07-08T11:40:46Z chrnybo: Shinmera: ... narrow it down to what I was wondering about.
2015-07-08T11:41:33Z chrnybo: Nice to know that there wasn't something obvious missing. COND it is, then.
2015-07-08T11:41:54Z Shinmera: chrnybo: I still don't really know what you mean, but no matter. As dtw said, you want COND and EQUAL or EQUALP.
2015-07-08T11:42:31Z Shinmera: Obviously you can write a macro around COND that gives you the same thing as CASE but with something other than EQL as test.
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2015-07-08T11:48:26Z chrnybo: Shinmera: Thanks.
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2015-07-08T11:54:12Z scymtym: chrnybo: have a look at ALEXANDRIA:SWITCH
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2015-07-08T11:58:09Z chrnybo: I should have give a clue as to the scope here, I'm refactoring code that was a set of ifs to ensure that a function either got the arg A, OR the args B AND C. So importing a library is too much.
2015-07-08T11:59:38Z ynchromeshs: chrnybo: Alexandria is a pretty great library full of lots of useful stuff, it's well worth a look.
2015-07-08T11:59:52Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: ? if you're refactoring, just ql:quickload the package, do your refactoring and then with-open-file write out the result?
2015-07-08T12:00:10Z gabriel_laddel: it won't add it to your project...
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2015-07-08T12:15:59Z chrnybo: gabriel_laddel: I don't quite follow?
2015-07-08T12:16:25Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: you're using quicklisp right?
2015-07-08T12:17:15Z chrnybo: gabriel_laddel: yes, I use ql for libraries.
2015-07-08T12:17:43Z gabriel_laddel: if you're doing a once-off automated refactoring then it costs you nothing to quickload and use the most appropriate tool for the job
2015-07-08T12:18:45Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: so, just do it with fare-quasiquote, which is exactly what you're looking for. You don't even have to save it to a file, just (named-readtables:in-readtable :fare-quasiquote) (match ...) at the repl
2015-07-08T12:18:50Z chrnybo: Ah, I nothing automated here, I used a too fancy term for simple rewriting, as in attempt to understand the code, rewrite, cross fingers.
2015-07-08T12:19:13Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: hrm.
2015-07-08T12:19:36Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: well, from what I've heard+seen here, what you're looking for is still fare-quasiqoute
2015-07-08T12:19:46Z gabriel_laddel: "structural pattern matching against lists"
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2015-07-08T12:29:48Z chrnybo: gabriel_laddel: In which file is MATCH defined? I have ql'ed fare-quasiquote and fare-quasiquote-extras, but can't apropos it.
2015-07-08T12:30:54Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: lol
2015-07-08T12:31:00Z gabriel_laddel: of course - it's in optima
2015-07-08T12:31:03Z gabriel_laddel: sorry about that
2015-07-08T12:31:30Z gabriel_laddel: (the package optima, in match.lisp)
2015-07-08T12:31:43Z gabriel_laddel: quasi-quote modifies the read table such that you can do list matching with optima
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2015-07-08T12:36:30Z chrnybo: Mmm. What a glorious yak I got to shave.
2015-07-08T12:36:59Z chrnybo: -> nilp is not defined.
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2015-07-08T12:37:25Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: nilp?
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2015-07-08T12:39:49Z chrnybo: Used in the macroexpansion of optima:match.
2015-07-08T12:41:28Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: let me check my version number
2015-07-08T12:42:48Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: version "1.0" (from .asd file) and commit b2b9e32
2015-07-08T12:43:11Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: I reverted optima to this particular version because of some issues it was having with Alexandria...
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2015-07-08T12:45:55Z chrnybo: gabriel_laddel: Ok if I stumble back to using COND, please?
2015-07-08T12:46:06Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: yeah, sure thing
2015-07-08T12:46:21Z gabriel_laddel: chrnybo: sorry about that.
2015-07-08T12:46:35Z gabriel_laddel: I faced this *exact* problem - was very excited about optima and it filled my need exactly.
2015-07-08T12:46:39Z gabriel_laddel: :/
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2015-07-08T13:33:19Z jasom: chrnybo: what would be the difference between nilp and null?
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2015-07-08T13:35:55Z jasom: I use optima for routing in a clack webapp; clack gives you information about the entire request in a plist, so it's a natural fit.
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2015-07-08T15:21:41Z pjb: dim: dd = disk duplicate ;-)
2015-07-08T15:22:05Z pjb: loke: you can step on ccl with cl-stepper.
2015-07-08T15:22:37Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper
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2015-07-08T15:52:09Z goglosh: would you guys recommend using cl-lib.el?
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2015-07-08T15:52:25Z goglosh: (fo learning)
2015-07-08T15:52:34Z goglosh: s/fo/for
2015-07-08T15:52:52Z Shinmera: We would recommend learning CL.
2015-07-08T15:53:01Z goglosh: makes sense
2015-07-08T15:53:30Z H4ns: goglosh: if you use cl-lib.el and refer to generic common lisp texts, you'll probably hit incompatibilities rather sooner than later.
2015-07-08T15:53:50Z H4ns: goglosh: i'd not use it for learning for that reason.
2015-07-08T15:54:04Z goglosh: I guess you're right
2015-07-08T15:54:27Z goglosh: and as an cl-like interface for emacs?
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2015-07-08T15:54:39Z gabriel_laddel: goglosh: yeah, don't use it.
2015-07-08T15:54:40Z contrapunctus: goglosh: emacs-cl could use some love.
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2015-07-08T15:54:56Z contrapunctus: (but...it'll probably need knowledge of both Elisp and CL)
2015-07-08T15:55:06Z H4ns: goglosh: if you already know cl and like to use some of it in emacs, why not?
2015-07-08T15:55:13Z gabriel_laddel: goglosh: there are various incompatibilities that you'll eventually hit in addition to ^^ and if you peek under the hood...
2015-07-08T15:55:14Z gabriel_laddel: ugh
2015-07-08T15:55:22Z gabriel_laddel: it's bad.
2015-07-08T15:55:38Z contrapunctus: ( https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl )
2015-07-08T15:55:57Z goglosh: yeah, I guess that happens
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2015-07-08T15:57:52Z goglosh: thanks for the advice
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2015-07-08T16:19:07Z jasom: Hmm, I seem to be having a bug with dynamic-extend and sbcl.
2015-07-08T16:19:18Z jasom: s/dynamic-extend/dynamic-extent
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2015-07-08T16:20:27Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151209
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2015-07-08T16:20:54Z jasom: the unknown-pointer-object comes from a string declared to have dynamic extent
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2015-07-08T16:22:39Z |3b|: is that from within the dynamic extent of the binding declared dynamic-extent?
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2015-07-08T16:23:25Z nyef: jasom: Yeah, that'd be from valid_lisp_pointer_p() in src/runtime/gc-common.c not checking for stack spaces.
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2015-07-08T16:24:38Z nyef: jasom: If you want to see what the string is, use SB-KERNEL:%MAKE-LISP-OBJ on that address.
2015-07-08T16:25:17Z nyef: But please be aware that %MAKE-LISP-OBJ is the "unsafe" version of a function in an SBCL-private package.
2015-07-08T16:25:25Z nyef: If you break it, you get to keep the pieces.
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2015-07-08T16:26:41Z jasom: |3b|: yes
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2015-07-08T16:27:21Z jasom: nyef: is it fixed in latest sbcl?
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2015-07-08T16:29:25Z nyef: Almost certainly not.
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2015-07-08T16:31:07Z jasom really feels like a #-sbcl in front of every dynamic-extent declaration could only improve things; it's very rare that I've seen it improve performance, and often it causes issues
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2015-07-08T16:32:36Z jasom: some other library I used made the build output noisy because a macro expanded to a dynamic-extent declaration that sbcl style-warned about
2015-07-08T16:32:45Z jasom: I think it was cl-typesetting
2015-07-08T16:32:56Z nyef: Well, here's part of the problem: What happens if you have a D-X value in the backtrace, but it's since been smashed by something?
2015-07-08T16:33:05Z jasom: ah
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2015-07-08T16:33:31Z jasom: nyef: so you're saying it's just the debug output that's an issue?
2015-07-08T16:33:38Z fe[nl]ix: cl-typesetting was written more than a decade ago
2015-07-08T16:33:42Z nyef: It's in the backtrace, which is taken when you enter the debugger. Which could lead to an error, thus entering the debugger, thus...
2015-07-08T16:33:42Z jasom: I know for a fact that the value is a string, so (length) should work on it
2015-07-08T16:34:11Z nyef: jasom: As I said, call SB-KERNEL:%MAKE-LISP-OBJ on that hex value for the object address, and you should get something useful.
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2015-07-08T16:34:49Z jasom: well commenting out the dynamic-extend declaration lets everything work fine
2015-07-08T16:35:09Z jasom: and one of these day's I'll be able to type dynamic-extent
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2015-07-08T16:36:24Z jasom sees if he can make a smaller test-case
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2015-07-08T16:38:18Z nyef: jasom: "MAKE-LISP-OBJ does not work on dynamic-extent values", maybe?
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2015-07-08T16:39:15Z nyef: (defun test () (let ((foo (cons nil nil))) (declare (dynamic-extent foo)) (assert (eq (sb-kernel:make-lisp-obj (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address foo) nil) foo)))) or so.
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2015-07-08T16:46:17Z |3b|: jasom: is the problem the backtrace or that it errored in the first place?
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2015-07-08T16:48:51Z WarWeasle:
2015-07-08T16:48:51Z WarWeasle:
2015-07-08T16:48:51Z WarWeasle:
2015-07-08T16:48:51Z WarWeasle:
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2015-07-08T16:49:03Z jasom: |3b|: that it errored in the first place
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2015-07-08T16:52:33Z jasom: also I get "unknown pointer object" for what should be a string
2015-07-08T16:52:57Z jasom: when I use %make-lisp-obj that is
2015-07-08T16:53:08Z jasom: If I comment out the dynamic extend, the code works properly
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2015-07-08T17:08:39Z |3b|: jasom: can you show the code?
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2015-07-08T17:31:36Z PuercoPop: so apparently there are two different lispkit projects, same name, same goal https://github.com/vlnx/lispkit
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2015-07-08T17:32:46Z gabriel_laddel: hahaa
2015-07-08T17:33:16Z pjb: PuercoPop: more https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=lispkit
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2015-07-08T17:35:42Z contrapunctus: Any news on what happened to AeroNotix's LispKit? Channel is +s, a few months have passed since the last commit, doesn't seem to be anything in the Gitter nor the mailing list...
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2015-07-08T17:38:44Z PuercoPop: pjb: I meant in CL. But I had now idea there was a lispkit lisp dialect
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2015-07-08T17:42:46Z jasom: |3b|: I'm seeing if it reproduces with latest iolib
2015-07-08T17:43:19Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: reproduce what ?
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2015-07-08T17:44:02Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: what I believe to be a bug in sbcl that shows up with stream-write-char on iolib
2015-07-08T17:44:11Z fe[nl]ix: ooh
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2015-07-08T17:44:36Z jasom: and it does
2015-07-08T17:46:57Z jasom: hmm copy/paste isn't liking me
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2015-07-08T17:49:23Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+38O9/2
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2015-07-08T17:49:56Z jasom: write-char makes a single-element string with dynamic-extent and write-sequence barfs on it saying it's not a sequence
2015-07-08T17:50:30Z jasom: sbcl 1.2.11
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2015-07-08T17:53:25Z |3b|: how does it make the string?
2015-07-08T17:53:42Z |3b| seems to have reproduced it using make-string
2015-07-08T17:53:47Z |3b|: (and no iolib)
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2015-07-08T17:56:34Z |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151209#4
2015-07-08T17:57:51Z Bike: no error here. weird.
2015-07-08T17:58:38Z |3b| is using 1.2.13.30 win/x8664
2015-07-08T17:58:54Z Bike: 1.2.5, gee, i'm behind
2015-07-08T17:59:03Z pjb: boohoo!
2015-07-08T18:00:06Z |3b|: error on 1.2.13.2 x8664 linux, no error on 1.2.13.30 arm/linux
2015-07-08T18:00:19Z Bike: i do get it in 1.2.10 x8664 linux
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2015-07-08T18:00:40Z nyef: So, looks to be backend-dependent and a regression?
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2015-07-08T18:01:40Z Bike: so it seems
2015-07-08T18:02:05Z nyef: Sounds like a good candidate for the test suite, then.
2015-07-08T18:02:10Z nyef: d-x.impure.lisp.
2015-07-08T18:07:10Z |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/+38O9/5
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2015-07-08T18:20:47Z jasom: Is there a document describing the behavior one can count on for threads on sbcl?
2015-07-08T18:21:17Z jasom: I'm implementing a recursive lock, and would like to have a fast lock-free path for the case where the lock is already held
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2015-07-08T18:21:54Z pjb: "recursive locks considered harmful", or something.
2015-07-08T18:21:57Z fe[nl]ix: don't use recursive locks
2015-07-08T18:23:44Z jasom: is that a "no" then?
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2015-07-08T18:24:37Z pjb: just a friendly advice.
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2015-07-08T18:27:17Z fe[nl]ix: the inventor of recursive locks stated on a mailing list that he meant them as a quick way to port code that wasn't designed for locking
2015-07-08T18:27:36Z fe[nl]ix: and he didn't imagine that POSIX would standardize them
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2015-07-08T18:27:59Z jasom: well I'm porting code that wasn't designed for locking
2015-07-08T18:28:24Z jasom: and I discovered that bt:acquire-recursive-lock on sbcl is a nop
2015-07-08T18:29:10Z foom: sbcl has a perfectly-functioning with-recursive-lock function
2015-07-08T18:29:33Z jasom: yup, but I can't do that because the time in which I need to hold the lock is not lexically defined.
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2015-07-08T18:33:16Z fe[nl]ix: foom: that's the macro, but there's no grab-recursive-mutex
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2015-07-08T18:37:19Z foom: Indeed. Since it doesn't have a count, it can't deal with unrelated lock/unlock calls.
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2015-07-08T18:40:33Z foom: If you need that, you'll want to have a separate count, and check holding-mutex-p yourself
2015-07-08T18:41:44Z jasom: oh right, there's a holding-mutex-p
2015-07-08T18:41:47Z jasom: that'll do
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2015-07-08T18:51:17Z jasom: what does it mean that "release-mutex is not interrupt safe" are we talking about signals?
2015-07-08T18:51:20Z |3b|: looks like that bug isn't specific to make-string, or strings, though possibly needs typed arrays
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2015-07-08T18:56:53Z foom: jasom: yes, say, press control-c, then unwind
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2015-07-08T18:57:15Z foom: jasom: sometimes people expect that control-c and "abort" from the debugger won't blow up the process
2015-07-08T18:58:17Z foom: So, internally, sbcl tries to be careful that things are safe to unwind from such random places.
2015-07-08T18:58:40Z foom: User-level code often doesn't care about that so much
2015-07-08T18:59:34Z foom: Certainly we didn't on the project I worked on. If you aborted from within something, and that left a mutex locked or some state corrupted, oh well so sad restart your image.
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2015-07-08T19:08:05Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi
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2015-07-08T19:28:51Z Xach: pjb: new problems
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2015-07-08T19:29:08Z Xach: pjb: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-08/failure-report.html
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2015-07-08T19:35:55Z jasom: gah, I found another bug, END-OF-FILE error when reading from a string with eof-error-p set to nil; seeing if I can reproduce
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2015-07-08T19:44:17Z jasom: can someone confirm that this should not signal an end-of-file error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151211
2015-07-08T19:44:22Z |3b|: jasom: it errors if it sees an incomplete object regardless of that flag
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2015-07-08T19:44:45Z jasom: oh
2015-07-08T19:44:48Z jasom: darn
2015-07-08T19:45:27Z jasom: you're right. I'm an idiot
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2015-07-08T19:52:23Z |3b|: hmm, that 2nd test case is worse than i thought, doesn't even need the type declaration http://paste.lisp.org/+38O9/6
2015-07-08T19:52:59Z |3b|: still doesn't affect arm though
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2015-07-08T19:56:16Z |3b|: seems to be specific to specialized arrays with immediate sized values... doesn't error on ub64 or double-float
2015-07-08T19:56:56Z |3b|: ub8 still doesn't error on arm though
2015-07-08T19:57:48Z ecraven: is there a place on irc to take to SLIME people?
2015-07-08T19:58:12Z |3b|: here is one
2015-07-08T20:04:18Z eudoxia: is quicklisp being terribly slow for anyone else
2015-07-08T20:04:30Z Xach: eudoxia: at fetching stuff?
2015-07-08T20:04:33Z eudoxia: yes
2015-07-08T20:05:04Z Xach: hmm, it is kind of slow for me too.
2015-07-08T20:05:07Z eudoxia: 19.85KB/sec
2015-07-08T20:05:22Z Xach: i'm getting 100-200KB/sec. i expect more like 1MB+
2015-07-08T20:05:23Z eudoxia: AWS status dashboard says everything's green
2015-07-08T20:05:30Z Xach: yeah, it'd all be on AWS
2015-07-08T20:05:34Z eudoxia: then again if it weren't half the internet would be on fire
2015-07-08T20:05:52Z eudoxia: it just timed out fetching lack
2015-07-08T20:06:37Z Xach: sorry!
2015-07-08T20:06:55Z Xach: eudoxia: where are you, geographically? i'm on the east coast of the USA.
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2015-07-08T20:07:15Z eudoxia: Uruguay
2015-07-08T20:07:26Z eudoxia: let me try this from a US server
2015-07-08T20:07:30Z Xach: Hmm, it's super-fast from my colo in canada.
2015-07-08T20:07:45Z Xach: 4MB/sec
2015-07-08T20:08:12Z eudoxia: it's quite fast from EC2, yep
2015-07-08T20:08:13Z Xach: 10MB/sec from dallas
2015-07-08T20:08:36Z Xach: eudoxia: maybe it's an intermediate network we have in common
2015-07-08T20:08:58Z eudoxia: hmm
2015-07-08T20:09:05Z jasom: I was getting slow speeds earlier today too from socal
2015-07-08T20:09:23Z jasom: 10-200K/s
2015-07-08T20:10:07Z eudoxia: i ran traceroute to see what it hops over and it's taking its time
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2015-07-08T20:12:56Z nyef: FWIW, I'm getting occasional bouts of lag to a VNC session I have running in AWS us-east-1.
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2015-07-08T20:15:27Z pjb: Xach: I've pushed the changes, there were missing dependencies on the new systems.
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2015-07-08T20:15:48Z pjb: Xach: Do you have the script with which you test systems available?
2015-07-08T20:16:11Z Xach: pjb: it is on github, but is a pain to set up. a simple attempt to load via asdf would give a similar error.
2015-07-08T20:17:27Z pjb: Yes, from a scratch image. But while developping in an image where dependencies are already loaded, this goes undetected. Also, it's necessary to try it for each system. When I use my umbrella system com.informatimago, some dependencies may be loaded before the dependent even if the link is missing.
2015-07-08T20:17:36Z pjb: What's the github repo where it is?
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2015-07-08T20:18:38Z Xach: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-controller/
2015-07-08T20:19:07Z pjb: Thanks.
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2015-07-08T20:22:50Z |3b|: pjb: in https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1471809 is "S/CL-USER" a typo or some package that might have non-cl versions of some of those symbols? (or that otherwise implies loading some code before that AVER shows up)
2015-07-08T20:23:32Z Xach: pjb: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-08/failure-report/com.informatimago.html#com.informatimago.languages.c11 much better now
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2015-07-08T20:26:36Z Xach: but still...
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2015-07-08T20:32:46Z scymtym: re https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1471809: the debugger help string at the top contains "Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:QUIT) to exit from SBCL." which contradicts sbcl --version printing 1.2.13 a few lines down
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2015-07-08T20:34:14Z |3b| missed that too
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2015-07-08T20:56:06Z tmtwd: how do I break out of a slime command?
2015-07-08T20:56:15Z tmtwd: I think its caught in an infinite loop
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2015-07-08T20:56:53Z Bike: C-c C-c
2015-07-08T20:57:03Z dlowe: tmtwd: if that doesn't work check the *inferior-lisp* buffer
2015-07-08T20:57:10Z dlowe: your lisp may have died horribly
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2015-07-08T21:02:12Z |3b|: C-c C-b from a lisp buffer (where C-c C-c would try to compile something)
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2015-07-08T21:06:14Z |3b|: jasom: filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1472785 for that dynamic-extent thing
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2015-07-08T21:21:16Z pjb: Xach: S/CL-USER is a custom prompt.
2015-07-08T21:21:37Z pjb: It shows that it's sbcl, in the cl-user package.
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2015-07-08T21:27:20Z scymtym: pjb: did you see my remark regarding the version mismatch? assuming i didn't get confused, the repl session seems to be using a different SBCL than the sbcl --version commandline invocation.
2015-07-08T21:28:09Z jasom: |3b|: thanks
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2015-07-08T21:37:26Z pjb: scymtym: let me check again.
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2015-07-08T21:43:40Z scymtym: pjb: thanks. while at it, can you include the output of (SB-EXT:DESCRIBE-COMPILER-POLICY)? this looks like the kind of bug that would depend on the compiler policy.
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2015-07-08T21:45:27Z pjb: done.
2015-07-08T21:45:42Z scymtym cannot reproduce with SBCL 1.2.13 and typical compiler policies
2015-07-08T21:45:44Z scymtym: thanks
2015-07-08T21:45:45Z pjb: I can't reproduce it so I made it invalid.
2015-07-08T21:46:02Z scymtym: phew
2015-07-08T21:46:38Z dim: pjb: desultory reading some of your code at https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/ I guess you would benefit from something like (put 'print-parseable-object 'common-lisp-indent-function (get 'let 'common-lisp-indent-function)) in your emacs setup?
2015-07-08T21:47:18Z pjb: dim: usually, slime infer things correctly from the macro definition.
2015-07-08T21:47:51Z dim: well it doesn't always or I don't have the proper slime fancy setting
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2015-07-08T21:48:17Z dim: I know I have quite some manual settings here
2015-07-08T21:48:29Z pjb: Yes, sometimes it fails. Also, of course, you need to have an inferior lisp launched with the library loaded.
2015-07-08T21:48:35Z pjb: same here.
2015-07-08T21:48:46Z dim: like (put 'bind 'common-lisp-indent-function (get 'let 'common-lisp-indent-function)) is for metabang-bind
2015-07-08T21:49:04Z dim: or (put 'register-groups-bind 'common-lisp-indent-function 2) for cl-ppcre
2015-07-08T21:49:08Z dim: well you know the drill
2015-07-08T21:49:32Z dim: ok I'd better go get some sleep, gn!
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2015-07-08T21:57:07Z aeth: Is there an online "super grep" that has e.g. all the packages in Quicklisp, the source code of various Lisp implementations, etc.? I guess the closest thing I can think of is searching code in Github, then filtering by Common Lisp, but there's a lot of noise on Github (e.g. all of the forks) and a lot of languages I don't care about (in fact I can't even filter by Common Lisp in the default UI if there are more popular languages in the top
2015-07-08T21:59:43Z aeth: hmm, looks like Github has language:"Foo" syntax. It's still not as useful as locally grepping for some reason
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2015-07-08T22:01:49Z PuercoPop: aeth: so you mean something like sourcegraph but for CL?
2015-07-08T22:02:09Z aeth: I'm not aware of sourcegraph
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2015-07-08T22:03:05Z aeth: But basically something equivalent to recursively grepping ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software assuming that that directory only has the latest copy per program (instead of lots of versions)
2015-07-08T22:03:28Z aeth: (adding sbcl, etc., that obviously won't be in Quicklisp)
2015-07-08T22:05:02Z tmtwd: I tried the function collect in repl, but when I tried to load source code I got this error: ;
2015-07-08T22:05:02Z tmtwd: ; caught STYLE-WARNING:
2015-07-08T22:05:02Z tmtwd: ; undefined function: COLLECT
2015-07-08T22:05:02Z tmtwd: ;
2015-07-08T22:05:55Z pjb: (apropos "COLLECT")
2015-07-08T22:06:40Z pjb: also, it might be because it's defined in a different file that is loaded/compiled after the first. So you might want to update your dependencies in the asd file.
2015-07-08T22:07:23Z pjb: aeth: my solution: load all the systems in quicklisp in a single image, and use apropos.
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2015-07-08T22:08:14Z tmtwd: I don't think thats the problem http://pastebin.com/DnGQF6te
2015-07-08T22:08:40Z tmtwd: I tested that function in pieces in the repl, but maybe I put it together incorrectly
2015-07-08T22:08:41Z aeth: pjb: Loading all of quicklisp will cost the quicklisp project bandwidth, though. This is a good case for the "cloud" because not everyone needs 100% of every package downloaded locally if they just want to search around
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2015-07-08T22:09:28Z foom: I almost wrote a script to take all the sources from quicklisp and commit them to a git repo
2015-07-08T22:09:36Z foom: I think that'd be the best solution
2015-07-08T22:09:45Z aeth: foom: the cheapest, probably
2015-07-08T22:09:50Z foom: Every time quicklisp updates, take all the new packages, and commit to git, and upload to github
2015-07-08T22:09:51Z aeth: then you can just use a local repo search
2015-07-08T22:10:06Z foom: Then you get history, and git grep is awesomely fast.
2015-07-08T22:10:20Z aeth: yeah
2015-07-08T22:10:37Z aeth: foom: and the best part is, if you download the whole thing, you get a modern "batteries-included" programming language ;-)
2015-07-08T22:10:45Z foom: But I don't work on CL code anymore, so I'm not actually going to do this.
2015-07-08T22:10:46Z aeth: The most batteries included in the world!
2015-07-08T22:10:59Z foom: It'd be great for someone to do so, though
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2015-07-08T22:12:15Z aeth: foom: an alternative might be to just donate a code search program to the Quicklisp project, depending on how they're hosted and if they want it
2015-07-08T22:12:38Z foom: sure, but the git repo would be great for all sorts of other uses
2015-07-08T22:13:13Z brpocock: git submodule add $bletch … et al?
2015-07-08T22:13:19Z foom: no, not submodules
2015-07-08T22:13:22Z foom: those are crap, don't use them
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2015-07-08T22:13:48Z foom: just a single, flat, repo of each quicklisp release.
2015-07-08T22:14:06Z foom: With all the files from all the projects included in it.
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2015-07-08T22:15:00Z aeth: hmm, looking it up, it looks like "the Quicklisp project" is Xach
2015-07-08T22:15:04Z foom: yes
2015-07-08T22:15:57Z foom: You *could* use subtree merges to include the commit history of each imported project, for those that use git instead of release tarballs, but I don't think that's actually important, and makes things a lot more complicated.
2015-07-08T22:17:04Z aeth: not everything in Quicklisp uses Git
2015-07-08T22:17:24Z aeth: I've seen -cvs, -darcs, and -svn
2015-07-08T22:17:46Z foom: yes?
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2015-07-08T22:18:05Z aeth: So a single flat repo is the only way to avoid complications afaik
2015-07-08T22:18:16Z foom: I agree. :)
2015-07-08T22:18:41Z aeth: Do some actually use release tarballs instead of even CVS? wow
2015-07-08T22:19:13Z aeth: Although I guess real Lisp programmers program on LispMs that probably don't have CVS, SVN, git, etc., installed on them
2015-07-08T22:20:19Z nyef: aeth: Feel free to write a version of git in Lisp.
2015-07-08T22:20:56Z aeth: nyef: Iirc, git is very Unixy, linked to the nature of Unix. It'll either be an immitation or basically a reinvention of lots of Unixy ways of doing things except in Lisp.
2015-07-08T22:22:03Z nyef: ... So?
2015-07-08T22:22:04Z aeth: Distributed revision control in Lisp could be roughly compatable with git so you could do git->foo and foo->git but I think it'd be a waste to actually rewrite git in Lisp
2015-07-08T22:22:40Z nyef: Guess I'll have to try to con someone else into doing it, then.
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2015-07-08T22:24:56Z aeth: Why do git when you can do something cooler?
2015-07-08T22:25:32Z aeth: You can even try to solve some of the weaknesses of git that led to Github by e.g. integrating some Github-specific features that git lacks, like a bug tracker and (iirc) pull requests.
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2015-07-08T22:26:24Z nyef: Nevermind that pull requests are a broken interaction model, and issue tracking is entirely orthogonal to source control...?
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2015-07-08T22:26:38Z aeth: Of course pull requests are broken.
2015-07-08T22:27:37Z aeth: One big mistake a FOSS program can make is to closely copy proprietary software it's trying to replace.
2015-07-08T22:28:11Z aeth: Don't clone pull requests, reimagine them.
2015-07-08T22:29:14Z nyef: So, here's the thing. I don't want an all-singing, all-dancing development tool. I want source control that interoperates with git.
2015-07-08T22:29:16Z aeth: Issue tracking isn't entirely orthogonal to source control. If you integrate the issue tracker you can e.g. include metadata in the commits that refer to the issue, etc. With git, you have to do this in the commit message rather than in metadata.
2015-07-08T22:29:38Z aeth: nyef: I thought the point of Lisp design was all-singing, all-dancing? Unix/C's the worse is better world.
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2015-07-08T22:30:11Z nyef: When was the last time you read "Good News, Bad News, and How to Win Big"?
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2015-07-08T22:30:49Z aeth: nyef: it's not in my Firefox Awesome Bar history, so I guess it's probably been more than a year
2015-07-08T22:31:06Z nyef: Right.
2015-07-08T22:31:10Z aeth: oh wait, it's not in the title of the page so idk
2015-07-08T22:31:29Z nyef: https://www.dreamsongs.com/WIB.html
2015-07-08T22:31:46Z aeth: yes
2015-07-08T22:31:53Z Zhivago: aeth: Non-interoperability is not a winning strategy.
2015-07-08T22:32:20Z aeth: I mean that "Good News, Bad News, and How to Win Big" is not in which is why I didn't find it at first
2015-07-08T22:33:10Z aeth: It kind of proves my point about how metadata can be useful :-p
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2015-07-08T22:36:31Z aeth: Zhivago: non-interoperability?
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2015-07-08T22:36:49Z Zhivago: The all-singing all-dancing design approach to not working with anything existing.
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2015-07-08T23:05:42Z PuercoPop: is there a way to make asdf load all the system definitions is its path?
2015-07-08T23:06:36Z PuercoPop: (not the systems, just the system definitions)
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2015-07-08T23:08:16Z pjb: PuercoPop: (loop :for (d . ss) :in (com.informatimago.tools.try-systems::find-asd-systems-in-directory #P"~/src/lisp/") :do (loop :for s :in ss :do (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op s)))
2015-07-08T23:08:35Z pjb: I'm writing it, it's not published yet :-/
2015-07-08T23:09:13Z pjb: Oh, sorry, you want:
2015-07-08T23:09:32Z pjb: (mapcar 'load (directory #P"/some/path/**/*.asd"))
2015-07-08T23:13:35Z PuercoPop: pjb: except the #P"/foo/" is determined by asdf. What I think I want is a asdf:map-systems that works for every system, not just the ones that are loaded.
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2015-07-09T03:19:06Z mlrutherford: How come lisp has been around for SO long, but has consistently been ignored by the masses, even though its a fantastic language?
2015-07-09T03:19:39Z Bike: lizard conspiracy
2015-07-09T03:19:41Z |3b|: aliens
2015-07-09T03:20:10Z pjb: mlrutherford: how comes La Tour d'Argent has been around for SO long, but has consistently been ignored by the masses, even though it's a fantastic restaurant?
2015-07-09T03:21:25Z |3b| notes that you are asking this on IRC, which is ignored by the masses as well
2015-07-09T03:21:36Z mlrutherford: fair point :P
2015-07-09T03:22:22Z mlrutherford: Full disclosure: I'm ridiculously new to Lisp, so im not caught up on my Lisp history yet
2015-07-09T03:22:34Z Bike: wow, this is way too expensive for me
2015-07-09T03:23:09Z pjb: mlrutherford: marry, have a lot of babies, teach them lisp. If all lispers do that, eventually, we should take over the world!
2015-07-09T03:23:27Z pjb: lot of babies = at least six.
2015-07-09T03:23:48Z mlrutherford: :P in all seriousness, what is the likelihood that Lisp will gain traction again (in some form or another)?
2015-07-09T03:23:55Z |3b|: but more seriously, people aren't always (or even mostly) rational, and even if they are, they might be optimizing for different things than you are
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2015-07-09T03:24:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-07-09T03:24:21Z pjb: mlrutherford: same probability as I would find a genie in a lamp, and not botch my three wishes.
2015-07-09T03:24:22Z |3b|: if you consider clojure to "have traction", 100%
2015-07-09T03:24:40Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-07-09T03:25:30Z nyef: |3b|: If you consider clojure to "be a lisp" and to "have traction"?
2015-07-09T03:26:22Z |3b|: if not, impossible to predict... 1 killer application or popular scriptable game could be enough, but you can't really predict those even in popular languages where there a lot of candidates
2015-07-09T03:26:22Z nyef: ... Wait, I have work to do tomorrow. Why am I still up and looking at compiler bugs?
2015-07-09T03:26:39Z beach: Oh, one of THOSE questions. "If Lisp is so good, why is it not more popular?"
2015-07-09T03:27:13Z nyef: "If sobriety is so good, why is it not more popular?"
2015-07-09T03:27:41Z pjb: I tried the McDonald analogy, but I don't know if I've been successful.
2015-07-09T03:27:44Z mlrutherford: sorry for asking a dumb question, just figured somebody might know something i dont :P
2015-07-09T03:27:58Z beach: mlrutherford: http://metamodular.com/Essays/wrong.html
2015-07-09T03:28:15Z beach: mlrutherford: http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html
2015-07-09T03:30:33Z mlrutherford: I think my question boils down to me being afraid of wasting my time writing in Lisp if its destined to be a classroom language.
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2015-07-09T03:30:52Z beach: mlrutherford: You are right. Go learn something more popular.
2015-07-09T03:30:59Z mlrutherford: But i suppose everything is dying, just at different rates
2015-07-09T03:31:10Z pjb: mlrutherford: don't worry, it's definitely not a classroom language. That's part of the problem, actually.
2015-07-09T03:32:07Z pjb: mlrutherford: for example, perl is dead (who still uses it?). lisp was born 56 years ago and still going. Bet which one will be still going 56 years in the future?
2015-07-09T03:34:02Z linux_dream: a new dialect of lisp
2015-07-09T03:34:30Z mlrutherford: pjb, My (uninformed) opinion is that Lisps issue is primarily one of it's image rather than its abilities
2015-07-09T03:35:16Z mlrutherford: linux_dream, it would have to be a dialect that has a significant advantage over what already exists.
2015-07-09T03:35:25Z pjb: mlrutherford: You know, Spanish is already the language most spoken in the US. Clearly, English is on the sliding slope. Care to switch to #lisp-es?
2015-07-09T03:35:31Z mlrutherford: linux_dream, i think clasp is 100 steps in the right direction
2015-07-09T03:35:38Z beach: mlrutherford: Wow, you read those essays pretty fast.
2015-07-09T03:36:51Z linux_dream: mlrutherford, do you mean clisp??
2015-07-09T03:36:59Z pjb will bbl
2015-07-09T03:37:13Z mlrutherford: linux_dream, no clasp :P https://github.com/drmeister/clasp
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2015-07-09T03:38:46Z linux_dream: nice
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2015-07-09T03:53:16Z ahungry: Language comparisons you say? Try out my new tool http://lang-pop.ahungry.com/compare/haskell/clojure/lisp (written in common lisp) =]
2015-07-09T03:54:00Z linux_dream: what do the numbers represent?
2015-07-09T03:54:09Z ahungry: subreddit subscribers
2015-07-09T03:54:46Z ahungry: you can change the url to whatever you want as long as its a valid reddit.com/r/something page)
2015-07-09T03:55:16Z ahungry: i was going to tie in freenode active chat channel users as well eventually
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2015-07-09T03:56:55Z ahungry: as far as popular languages go (among redditusers at least) javascript and python blow away everything else
2015-07-09T03:57:01Z ahungry: http://lang-pop.ahungry.com/compare/haskell/clojure/lisp/racket/scheme/matlab/prolog/c_programming/java/schala/cpp/php/ruby/python/javascript
2015-07-09T03:57:13Z ahungry: but that doesn't mean they're the best
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2015-07-09T03:57:51Z theos: so you want to connect reddit users to irc?
2015-07-09T03:58:31Z ahungry: No, I plan to add more pie charts to the page, like another one beneath the existing one that also queries stats based on the same URL but breaks it out among freenode users for instance
2015-07-09T03:58:49Z ahungry: maybe any other things I can automate, like stack overflow topics for the lang etc
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2015-07-09T03:59:10Z theos: pie charts are old. try some newer visualization tools
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2015-07-09T04:03:14Z ahungry: it was just a small vecto function call i wrote to graph it, I think its decent (shows for instance on the last link that everything after C makes up a tiny part of the pie compared to the top contenders)
2015-07-09T04:03:18Z ahungry: What do you like? bar graphs?
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2015-07-09T04:07:24Z linux_dream: github hsa also similar stats
2015-07-09T04:07:33Z theos: i like pie charts too. i am just too obsessed with fancy visualization tools :D
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2015-07-09T04:07:41Z linux_dream: if I remember well javascript also escapes 1st there
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2015-07-09T04:10:25Z kristof: Cleavir is to compilers as the metaobject protocol is to CLOS, yes?
2015-07-09T04:10:33Z theos: my experience has shown me that popular means "NOT worth knowing". thats why I learned CL instead of python or C++ or even java(tpc)
2015-07-09T04:11:04Z beach: kristof: Interesting parallel. Thanks, I guess.
2015-07-09T04:11:06Z kristof: theos: Point-of-view is worth 80 IQ points.
2015-07-09T04:11:15Z kristof: beach: It was a question, actually.
2015-07-09T04:11:50Z theos: kristof what do you mean?
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2015-07-09T04:12:02Z beach: kristof: The question is very vague, but I will be happy to answer any more specific questions about Cleavir if you want.
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2015-07-09T04:16:15Z kristof: beach: In retrospect, the analogy was strained.
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2015-07-09T04:17:04Z kristof: It's just that when I read that the implementation allows for generic function "hooks" into the way it operates, it reminded me of the way CLOS has metaobject "hooks" for how it works in general.
2015-07-09T04:18:14Z beach: I see what you mean. However, that is standard practice for object-oriented programs written in CLOS.
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2015-07-09T04:18:54Z beach: So your question boils down to "Are the MOP and Cleavir both written using CLOS?"
2015-07-09T04:19:16Z Bike: well, a lot of what makes the MOP the MOP is using CLOS to make CLOS, so hey.
2015-07-09T04:20:05Z kristof: That wasn't quite what I meant, but my question was confused anyway, so it's irrelevant now.
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2015-07-09T04:20:28Z kristof: Something more concrete: is Clasp using Cleavir?
2015-07-09T04:20:35Z beach: Yes.
2015-07-09T04:21:10Z beach: kristof: drmeister saw Cleavir as a way to write a compiler that generates faster code than his original system was able to do.
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2015-07-09T04:24:36Z kristof: beach: Does he plan on doing optimizations on his end or will the majority of static analysis be done with Cleavir?
2015-07-09T04:24:45Z beach: kristof: This work is still embryonic, though. A week or so ago, Clasp could do inlined fixnum arithmetic for the first time.
2015-07-09T04:25:01Z kristof: Progress is progress. :)
2015-07-09T04:25:04Z beach: kristof: It depends on the kind of optimization.
2015-07-09T04:25:20Z beach: kristof: Cleavir will do type inference and some other Common Lisp-specific optimizations.
2015-07-09T04:25:42Z beach: kristof: drmeister will use LLVM for low-level optimizations such as register allocation etc.
2015-07-09T04:25:48Z kristof: beach: I suppose then that cleavir would do flow anlaysis and anything else related to semantics, while Clasp will fiddle with assembly level stuff?
2015-07-09T04:25:50Z kristof: Okay
2015-07-09T04:26:05Z kristof: I saw that a good 30% of the code in Clasp was ASM. That's a sizeable chunk!
2015-07-09T04:26:23Z beach: That doesn't sound right.
2015-07-09T04:26:39Z kristof: Those are just the numbers at the top of the github repository.
2015-07-09T04:26:49Z kristof: Those numbers could be biased in any which way.
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2015-07-09T04:27:49Z beach: You need to ask drmeister about that. I think it is plain wrong.
2015-07-09T04:29:09Z Bike: the github repo has and had a whole bunch of irrelevant junk in it, so between that and the skeezy language detection i wouldn't take that number too seriously
2015-07-09T04:29:23Z Bike: for one thing, it doesn't have any machine assembly, most likely, just llvm ir
2015-07-09T04:29:58Z kristof: Yeah, I couldn't find anything.
2015-07-09T04:30:06Z kristof: Mayber it's confusing the .jam extension?
2015-07-09T04:30:52Z drmeister: Hello
2015-07-09T04:31:02Z beach: Hello drmeister
2015-07-09T04:31:18Z kristof: drmeister: I was just confused about why Github thinks Clasp is 30% assembly.
2015-07-09T04:31:38Z drmeister: Really? Where do you see that?
2015-07-09T04:32:41Z kristof: On Github. I think the .jam extension is confusing it. When you try clicking on "assembly", it can't find anything.
2015-07-09T04:33:27Z drmeister: Hmm, I was worried that there may be some large LLVM-IR files in there and maybe it thought that was assembly? There shouldn't be any though.
2015-07-09T04:34:10Z kristof: I wouldn't worry about it. I only mentioned it because I thought it was accurate on first glance and was impressed.
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2015-07-09T05:24:04Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-07-09T05:24:07Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: oi
2015-07-09T05:25:06Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2015-07-09T05:25:10Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-07-09T05:29:32Z theos: does CL code involve GPL somewhere? or any other license
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2015-07-09T05:30:01Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by cl code?
2015-07-09T05:30:15Z jackdaniel: ecl is lgpl2, abcl is gpl with class exception
2015-07-09T05:30:21Z jackdaniel: if you ask about implementations
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2015-07-09T05:30:36Z jackdaniel: clisp is gpl, sbcl public domain
2015-07-09T05:30:40Z theos: say i make software in CL, use emacs and sbcl
2015-07-09T05:31:31Z jackdaniel: I seriously doubt someone would try to enforce gpl on your software due to used implementation, even if there might be some technical doubts with clisp
2015-07-09T05:31:42Z jackdaniel: on the other hand many cl libraries are gpl/agpl
2015-07-09T05:32:07Z jackdaniel: so if you are gpl-agnostic, you should watch what you use
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2015-07-09T05:32:35Z jackdaniel: but making software with emacs and sbcl is not a problem in this sense, you can make with it propietiary software
2015-07-09T05:32:40Z theos: how will they know what i used?
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2015-07-09T05:33:19Z jackdaniel: theos: how people will know, that you stole something? maybe they won't , but trying to hide this fact puts you in very sad moral position
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2015-07-09T05:35:52Z jackdaniel: imagine someone putting hours/days/months into creating some library, for which he/she can charge a lot of money, because it's *that* good, but decides to give it for free. and then some lazy thief takes his code and builds his library with steroids (which is easy, because code is maintainable), and sells it using different name
2015-07-09T05:36:06Z H4ns: then what?
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2015-07-09T05:36:44Z theos: jackdaniel morality is relative. and i am a pirate yes! thanks. oh i am not talking about selling someone else's work under my own name.
2015-07-09T05:36:45Z jackdaniel: nothing, I would be pissed if someone would try to close my gpl'ed code, like I would be pissed if someone would steal my wallet, or spit on my face
2015-07-09T05:37:09Z jackdaniel: theos: gpl doesn't enforce opening your code unless you distribute it
2015-07-09T05:37:26Z H4ns: jackdaniel: then it is you who has a problem, because you put spitting in your face onto the same as something that you've created.
2015-07-09T05:37:36Z H4ns: onto the same level
2015-07-09T05:38:13Z jackdaniel: H4ns: no, licences exist to comply with them. It's act of stealing, what is problem in sense of enforcing law
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2015-07-09T05:39:09Z H4ns: jackdaniel: no, it is not an act of stealing, because nothing is taken away by the act. your position requires adherence to a belief system and you're drawing false analogies to support it.
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2015-07-09T05:40:21Z jackdaniel: I'm not saying gpl is perfect license neither it's better/worse then any other, and while I essentially agree with your "you can't steal an information" crap, we live in a world, where people actually regulate information flow
2015-07-09T05:40:50Z theos: i dont want my code to be misused so i never release it.
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2015-07-09T05:42:14Z jackdaniel: theos: then you are free of gpl doubts, you don't have to release your code if you don't distribute your software
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2015-07-09T05:43:30Z jackdaniel: even if it links in any way with gpled code that is
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2015-07-09T05:53:48Z aeth: Code that's never released can still be misused.
2015-07-09T05:54:49Z aeth: What worries me is the LLGPL. Afaik, rule #1 of FOSS licenses is to not write your own licenses and so I'm really not sure if I can trust custom licenses like that.
2015-07-09T05:54:51Z theos: jackdaniel i mean, i dont release the source. i was concerned about selling proprietary CL code and getting sued by RMS or someone over GPL violation
2015-07-09T05:55:46Z theos: if i release the source code, i will want other people to do with it whatever they want to do.
2015-07-09T05:56:10Z jackdaniel: well, if you use gpl libs in your propietary code, then you may be sued by rms or someone over gpl violation
2015-07-09T05:56:28Z jackdaniel: then use bsd licensed libraries avoid gpl'ed ones
2015-07-09T05:56:55Z jackdaniel: and propietiary code may be misused, as aeth pointed out
2015-07-09T05:57:26Z aeth: Stay away from GPL libraries unless you are writing a GPL application (GPL *applications* are OK to *use*, of course.)
2015-07-09T05:57:27Z theos: even if its inside a blackbox?
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2015-07-09T05:58:00Z jackdaniel: blackbox?
2015-07-09T05:58:03Z aeth: If you want to try to find some clever way to work around the GPL or profit from the GPL, consult a lawyer, not #lisp. And that lawyer might be wrong.
2015-07-09T05:59:07Z aeth: Most libraries are not GPL. They're usually MIT these days, especially on something like Lisp where apparently the LGPL isn't used without modification (modified as the LLGPL)
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2015-07-09T05:59:45Z jackdaniel: well, if you can't find library which does desired thing and is non-GPL, you may hire someone to write one for you
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2015-07-09T06:01:03Z theos: hmm. software licenses are so tricky
2015-07-09T06:01:15Z aeth: Most of the (A)GPL Lisp libraries these days are (afaik) at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/index.html
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2015-07-09T06:01:34Z aeth: You will almost always encounter MIT, LLGPL, or BSD licenses at least ime
2015-07-09T06:02:07Z aeth: I was grepping through a bunch that I have downloaded, and usually the only GPL is for the examples and/or some helper tools like a shell script
2015-07-09T06:03:14Z jackdaniel: if it's called for it's results, then it's not linking
2015-07-09T06:03:39Z jackdaniel: so you're ok with that
2015-07-09T06:04:04Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Easy solution. Just GPL your code to be safe.
2015-07-09T06:04:14Z aeth: It's pretty simple: Libraries don't use GPL, applications might use GPL. Rarely, libraries *do* use GPL, and those are for GPL applications only.
2015-07-09T06:04:34Z aeth: And yes, Petit_Dejeuner_ is right. The maximum compatability is to use GPLv3 or later. If you use GPLv2 you can't use Apache licensed libraries.
2015-07-09T06:04:48Z theos: what about using emacs or other gnu software to make software?
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2015-07-09T06:05:09Z beach: theos: What about it?
2015-07-09T06:05:22Z jackdaniel: it's not a problem, you can use gcc to create closed software, since gpl doesn't enforce license nor ownership on products of gpl-licensed software
2015-07-09T06:05:35Z Petit_Dejeuner_: If you use GIMP to create an image, your image is not licensed under the GPL.
2015-07-09T06:05:40Z theos: do i have to send copies of gpl along with the software?
2015-07-09T06:05:50Z aeth: theos: emacs lisp programs are always (afaik) GPL. Programs written in emacs usually aren't. If you're writing elisp for distribution you might have to GPL it, but if you're doing Common Lisp (the subject of this channel) you won't have to GPL it (except maybe if you use clisp, I think people are unsure)
2015-07-09T06:05:55Z beach: theos: International copyright law has the concept of "derived work". Using software is not creating a derived work of it.
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2015-07-09T06:06:49Z theos: aeth i see. fortunately, i use sbcl which is mostly public
2015-07-09T06:07:43Z jackdaniel: I think you didn't understand a thing from answers - it doesn't matter what sbcl license is
2015-07-09T06:07:47Z beach: theos: Again, using a program A to create a program B does not automatically mean that B is a derived work of A. For that, you need to include parts of A in B.
2015-07-09T06:08:39Z theos: oh. so sbcl license is for distributing sbcl and not software compiled with it?
2015-07-09T06:08:40Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Programs compiled with gcc are not auto GPL'd.
2015-07-09T06:09:26Z theos: Petit_Dejeuner_ i think i heard RMS say that linux is GNU/Linux because it used gcc and other tools?
2015-07-09T06:09:42Z aeth: If you make some clever language in Common Lisp, and want to make an emacs mode to edit it, you can GPL the emacs mode without having to GPL the program that compiles/interprets the language. I'm guessing this is because the emacs mode is derived from emacs, but the actual program itself doesn't have anything to do with emacs (you can also write the hypothetical language in vim or ed)
2015-07-09T06:09:44Z H4ns: i would still say that it is a failure to the intent of the gpl if one uses gpl'ed programs to produce non-gpl'ed software.
2015-07-09T06:10:04Z aeth: But I think that's the extent of where using emacs can make you use the GPL.
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2015-07-09T06:10:21Z jackdaniel: H4ns: i wouldn't
2015-07-09T06:10:32Z H4ns: all that talk about how to smart-ass the gpl is just failing to help the original point of the free software foundation.
2015-07-09T06:10:38Z Petit_Dejeuner_: "i think i heard RMS say that linux is GNU/Linux because it used gcc and other tools?" That's about credit. The GNU guys created everything that isn't the kernel and they dislike being forgotten or ignored. It's not about licensing.
2015-07-09T06:11:15Z jackdaniel: H4ns: but I agree with second statement
2015-07-09T06:11:17Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner_: same line of belief, though: "if i created it, i get a say in how it is used".
2015-07-09T06:11:34Z theos: ^^
2015-07-09T06:11:46Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Are you referring to my last line or the previous one?
2015-07-09T06:11:58Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner_: about the credit
2015-07-09T06:12:17Z aeth: H4ns: There's nothing stopping someone from forking the AGPLv3 adding additional restrictions to try to increase the virality.
2015-07-09T06:12:17Z jackdaniel: it's not about usage, but appreciation of effort
2015-07-09T06:12:19Z Petit_Dejeuner_: "used" You might need to define that.
2015-07-09T06:12:28Z aeth: The AGPL started outside of GNU, they might like this new license too.
2015-07-09T06:12:35Z Petit_Dejeuner_: AGPL is great
2015-07-09T06:12:36Z kristof: This is quite off-topic for this channel.
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2015-07-09T06:13:01Z Petit_Dejeuner_: it's late and all the ops are sleeping
2015-07-09T06:13:04Z aeth: I at least have been trying to stay on topic with specific Common Lisp related licensing examples.
2015-07-09T06:13:26Z aeth: It can be on topic, I think. Lisp does complicate some of the licensing because the licenses are written with C in mind.
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2015-07-09T06:14:00Z H4ns: it is a dead horse beaten to death thousands of times already.
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2015-07-09T06:14:18Z jackdaniel: yet you hold a stick like all of us
2015-07-09T06:14:25Z aeth: H4ns: But I must continue recursively beating the dead horse until it returns nil.
2015-07-09T06:14:28Z jackdaniel roars
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2015-07-09T06:14:37Z jackdaniel: time to do something productive, see you later o/
2015-07-09T06:14:46Z H4ns: i'd not mind declaring all license discussions off-topic for #lisp :)
2015-07-09T06:14:59Z Petit_Dejeuner_: #lisplicense
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2015-07-09T06:16:24Z aeth: H4ns: actually there are some cases where licenses could be very on topic, e.g. when discussing libraries in Quicklisp
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2015-07-09T06:17:45Z aeth: And e.g. maybe Quicklisp should automatically check to make sure that if something with :license depends on libraries that are "GPL" then it itself is "GPL" or "AGPL"
2015-07-09T06:18:02Z H4ns: aeth: that would be a file topic for discussion in #quicklisp
2015-07-09T06:18:07Z H4ns: fine topic
2015-07-09T06:18:18Z aeth: bah
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2015-07-09T06:18:38Z aeth: I should start a campaign to get Quicklisp added to the CL standard, then, so licenses can be on topic again here. :-p
2015-07-09T06:18:55Z H4ns: you really love license discussions, don't you?
2015-07-09T06:18:57Z theos: thanks everyone
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2015-07-09T06:20:44Z aeth: H4ns: sadly, yes, I have thought about licenses too much and would probably actively participate in #lisplicense
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2015-07-09T06:32:19Z dripping_nut: holy hell SICP is boring. it has to be the most boring text i've ever read in my life... and people call this an introductory text?
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2015-07-09T06:33:49Z dripping_nut: overly flowery, technical text with diction not at all akin to a prototypical beginner is NOT a good introduction to compsci.
2015-07-09T06:34:13Z Shinmera: different strokes for different folks
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2015-07-09T06:35:17Z dripping_nut: i reckon so, Shinmera.
2015-07-09T06:35:43Z dripping_nut: at least i know understand the reasoning for the negative side of the amazon reviews for the book.
2015-07-09T06:36:02Z dripping_nut: *now
2015-07-09T06:36:47Z Shinmera: SICP is scheme as well, and this is a CL channel, so people here would not normally recommend it.
2015-07-09T06:37:51Z aeth: dripping_nut: It has its moments of genius. "good-enough?" is a brilliant function name imo.
2015-07-09T06:37:55Z Shinmera: If you want to complain and be on topic you should try #scheme
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2015-07-09T06:40:09Z dripping_nut: aeth: i don't think opinions on the book would be so polarizing if it wasn't commonly considered to be an introductory/beginner text.
2015-07-09T06:41:37Z H4ns: dripping_nut: it is a beginner text for non-cs academics.
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2015-07-09T06:43:24Z aeth: It's an introductory/beginner text for *MIT*.
2015-07-09T06:43:30Z aeth: (or was, at least)
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2015-07-09T06:44:01Z aeth: That's an important distinction.
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2015-07-09T07:02:00Z copycat: hi
2015-07-09T07:02:07Z copycat: any graphical editors written in common lisp?
2015-07-09T07:02:21Z Shinmera: What kind of graphical editor
2015-07-09T07:02:23Z copycat: i know autocad is written in autolisp
2015-07-09T07:02:42Z Shinmera: But it's not
2015-07-09T07:03:04Z Shinmera: AutoCAD supports AutoLISP as a scripting language. It isn't itself written in AutoLISP.
2015-07-09T07:03:19Z copycat: im not sure what different kinds of graphical editors there are
2015-07-09T07:03:35Z copycat: let's just say cad file editing
2015-07-09T07:04:46Z Shinmera: I don't know of any CAD editors that are written in Lisp.
2015-07-09T07:04:53Z H4ns: copycat: you need to be more specific, really. are you interested in knowing whether one can write cad programs in lisp? or whether any popular cad programs _are_ written in lisp? or do you want to hack on an open source cad program that is written in lisp?
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2015-07-09T07:05:10Z copycat: first and second really
2015-07-09T07:05:19Z H4ns: copycat: yes and no.
2015-07-09T07:05:43Z copycat: darn
2015-07-09T07:05:50Z copycat: any example of complex guis developed in cl?
2015-07-09T07:05:59Z Shinmera: How complex are we talking?
2015-07-09T07:06:07Z H4ns: copycat: http://opusmodus.com/
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2015-07-09T07:06:32Z copycat: i would think that a graphical editor like autocad would be pretty complex
2015-07-09T07:06:56Z copycat: games count too i guess, but i'm not interested in these
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2015-07-09T07:08:32Z copycat: what kind of libraries were used to make opusmodus?
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2015-07-09T07:08:47Z H4ns: copycat: to my knowledge, it was written in clozure cl with cocoa
2015-07-09T07:09:16Z Shinmera: There's https://github.com/Shinmera/parasol but I haven't worked on it in a long while.
2015-07-09T07:09:26Z Shinmera: And I don't know if that counts as "complex"
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2015-07-09T07:13:43Z copycat: how does cl "drop down" to c?
2015-07-09T07:13:43Z Shinmera: Looks like I last worked on it in January or so. https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TXpJNQ==
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2015-07-09T07:21:13Z copycat: shinmera, why did you start learning cl?
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2015-07-09T07:21:37Z Shinmera: Because it seemed different and interesting :shrug:
2015-07-09T07:21:37Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾
2015-07-09T07:22:33Z copycat: gui options for cl don't look so great..
2015-07-09T07:23:00Z copycat: what other kind of programs could i get started with?
2015-07-09T07:23:12Z copycat: my first few projects were guis
2015-07-09T07:23:18Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/
2015-07-09T07:23:28Z p_l: well, people make a lot of stuff with simplistic things like devdraw
2015-07-09T07:24:08Z p_l lol'd today when someone asked RSC about whether he used go-qml for his presentation software, only to find he used Plan9's draw ported to run on OSX
2015-07-09T07:24:19Z loke: jackdaniel: around?
2015-07-09T07:25:02Z loke: With some luck, jackdaniel will see this at some point. The bug that I reported yesterday seems to be in CFFI. I analysed it and I think I know why it happens: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1472926
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2015-07-09T08:26:23Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi
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2015-07-09T08:31:55Z jackdaniel: loke: thanks for update, should I close report on gitlab then?
2015-07-09T08:32:31Z loke: jackdaniel: Can you check if the CFFI implementation for ECL is broken?
2015-07-09T08:32:42Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: hi, if you have a question, just hit me with memo or query
2015-07-09T08:32:51Z loke: It seems as though they are doign what they do becauseof a limitation?
2015-07-09T08:32:53Z jackdaniel: yes, but not before 19CET
2015-07-09T08:32:59Z loke: sure :-)
2015-07-09T08:33:10Z loke: All I really wanted you to do is read the comment in the cffi code
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2015-07-09T08:33:26Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: no only to inform you that the app is almost ready, yesterday I tested the lcd and i2c interface software
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2015-07-09T08:34:55Z jackdaniel: loke: it can be implemented (invoke command second part that is - output)
2015-07-09T08:35:18Z jackdaniel: only limitation of output stream in ecl is that it's stream has to have file handle, therefore it can't be gray stream
2015-07-09T08:35:31Z jackdaniel: output stream from run-command I mean
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2015-07-09T08:35:53Z jackdaniel: but if you give :output :stream to run-command, it will create by itself valid stream, which can be read
2015-07-09T08:36:00Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: congratz :)
2015-07-09T08:36:15Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: thanks to ecl
2015-07-09T08:36:57Z jackdaniel: write tutorial for ecl quarterly ;-) I'll be back later o/
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2015-07-09T08:39:47Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: how!!?!?
2015-07-09T08:40:40Z jackdaniel: you know, emacs, keyboard :) if it's related to ecl and has content, ill include it obviously
2015-07-09T08:40:56Z jackdaniel: loke: or command (ext:system …) may be used
2015-07-09T08:41:07Z jackdaniel: I think I fixed this bug in iolib tough, hm
2015-07-09T08:41:32Z jackdaniel: no I didn't
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2015-07-09T08:56:18Z loz: greetings
2015-07-09T08:56:29Z loz: any smalltalk-guys here?)
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2015-07-09T09:17:38Z loke: loz: Sometimes we make smalltalk
2015-07-09T09:17:57Z loke: jackdaniel: What did you have for lunch today (that's smalltalk)
2015-07-09T09:18:29Z loz: loke: I wonder how did they make code blocks
2015-07-09T09:18:40Z loke: loz: Who?
2015-07-09T09:19:00Z loz: ones you can pass to if / for methods
2015-07-09T09:19:10Z loz: loke: smalltalkers)
2015-07-09T09:19:16Z loke: Lisp uses the IF form: (IF clause then else)
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2015-07-09T09:43:55Z jdz: loz: aren't code blocks in smaltalk closures?
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2015-07-09T09:49:39Z jackdaniel: hm, nothing yet. not sure tough, probably rice with sausage and onion
2015-07-09T09:49:48Z jackdaniel: ;-)
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2015-07-09T09:55:56Z duscae: calling all lispers!
2015-07-09T09:56:44Z duscae: would you all agree that lisp is practically an immortal language, by virtue of being THE most adaptable language of every PL out there?
2015-07-09T09:57:36Z Posterdati: and you are?
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2015-07-09T09:58:43Z duscae: i'm duscae, random IRC lurker and random query-making extraodinaire. you?
2015-07-09T09:59:20Z duscae: what's your take on the above question?
2015-07-09T09:59:27Z jdz: duscae: to get an answer to that question you'd first have to define "lisp"
2015-07-09T09:59:48Z jdz: duscae: and therein would probably lie an answer to your question
2015-07-09T10:00:13Z duscae: jdz: very true. i'm referring to the lisp dialect common lisp.
2015-07-09T10:01:04Z duscae: jdz: is it not the most adaptable language of them all, famous for being capable of assimilating features from other languages?
2015-07-09T10:01:27Z duscae: i'm no expert and lisp is an interesting family of languages to me. :)
2015-07-09T10:02:30Z jdz: the language itself is very flexible and powerful, but you must also consider the environment. for instance, the language does not have any notion of threading/concurrent/parallel programming
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2015-07-09T10:04:25Z jdz: but the fact that implementations can provide that facility while still maintaining conformance to the standard is a testament to your statement
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2015-07-09T10:05:47Z jackdaniel: I'd replace "THE most" with "very", unless you mastered all languages in the wild ;)
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2015-07-09T10:08:16Z duscae: peter norvig said the following:
2015-07-09T10:08:22Z duscae: "Lisp is the most adaptable language ever –The key to survival is to find a new niche –In 30 years Lisp will likely be ahead of C++/Java (but behind something else)..."
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2015-07-09T10:11:54Z schjetne`: Has anyone here worked with ZeroMQ? There seems to be a lot of different bindings for it.
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2015-07-09T10:13:17Z jdz: i know Ravenpack are using ZeroMQ, but not sure which bindings they're using
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2015-07-09T10:14:33Z jdz: check last year's ELS lightning talks
2015-07-09T10:16:17Z schjetne: jdz: thanks, I will
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2015-07-09T10:18:23Z jdz: schjetne: http://medias.ircam.fr/search/?q=lisp
2015-07-09T10:18:39Z schjetne: I found the video
2015-07-09T10:18:53Z jdz: oh, good
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2015-07-09T10:24:20Z schjetne: They seem to be transitioning to lisp-zmq, should be pretty good if they are using it. And it even has some docs.
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2015-07-09T10:33:51Z Vityok: jdz: I doubt other programming languages have a notion of threads embedded into their definition
2015-07-09T10:34:34Z schjetne: A lot of popular languages hardly even have definitions
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2015-07-09T10:36:02Z jdz: Vityok: for instance Java has "synchronized" and "volatile" keywords
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2015-07-09T10:39:09Z jackdaniel: doesn't erlang has such primitives?
2015-07-09T10:40:25Z p_l: jackdaniel: Erlang has primitives for communication
2015-07-09T10:40:33Z jackdaniel: mhm
2015-07-09T10:40:41Z p_l: technically speaking erlang the language has no mention concurrency or threading
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2015-07-09T11:17:47Z Vityok: jdz: iirc synchronized in Java is aking to synthatic sugar that avoids boilerplate to acquire-release locks
2015-07-09T11:18:14Z jdz: Vityok: why would you need locks?
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2015-07-09T11:20:08Z Vityok: or mutexes
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2015-07-09T11:21:24Z jdz: yes
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2015-07-09T12:10:47Z pjb: jackdaniel: there are tools developed (by teachers to catch cheating students) to compare programs and see if one is derived from another.
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2015-07-09T12:14:08Z pjb: theos: beware, even if you don't release your code, if you give access to it thru the Internet, and if it includes AGPL3 libraries (such as com.informatimago), then you will have to provide the sources!
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2015-07-09T12:15:24Z theos: pjb but how will anyone find out what libs it uses if its closed source?
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2015-07-09T12:15:27Z jackdaniel: pjb: I'm aware of that, original question was "how do they find out…" in context not realeasing your own source, and while it is possible, it isn't that straightforward as abovementiond programs
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2015-07-09T12:15:50Z pjb: theos: some information can be leaked: output formats, results from specific algorithms, etc.
2015-07-09T12:16:14Z pjb: jackdaniel: well, ^; otherwise, indeed I assumed availability of binaries.
2015-07-09T12:17:29Z jackdaniel: even having binaries doesn't make it easy, unless you specifically know what it could steal from (unless they're not stripped)
2015-07-09T12:17:53Z pjb: no, the comparison algorithms compares the structure of the code. It works well on binaries.
2015-07-09T12:18:11Z pjb: Of course, the first thing smart copying students do is to search and replace all the identifiers…
2015-07-09T12:18:32Z theos: pjb thats a good point.
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2015-07-09T12:18:41Z pjb: It's basically a graph comparison.
2015-07-09T12:19:10Z jackdaniel: maybe it's my horrible english, but I'm prety sure I've mentioned "unles you specifically know what it could steal from"
2015-07-09T12:19:35Z jackdaniel: s/prety/pretty/ s/unles/unless/
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2015-07-09T12:19:48Z pjb: You just fetch all the apps in the appstore, and compare all of them with your libraries :-)
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2015-07-09T12:24:05Z theos: what if your software depends on gpl software? dependencies etc
2015-07-09T12:24:17Z pjb: Then it will have to be GPL.
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2015-07-09T12:24:42Z pjb: theos: basically, the question is whether your program is a derived work of the GPL software it depends on.
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2015-07-09T12:25:20Z pjb: Juridicaly, "dependencies" are not too relevant AFAIK. What counts is the "derived work" notion.
2015-07-09T12:25:32Z theos: i see. so i have to write my own software from scratch.
2015-07-09T12:25:45Z pjb: Therefore if you write a library that is not derived work of the GPL library, you will be able to release it under your own license (even privative).
2015-07-09T12:26:17Z pjb: You can then write a derived work of both your library and the GPL, and here the GPL will trump over and impose the GPL on your derived work (but not on the other libraries that are not derived work).
2015-07-09T12:26:26Z pjb: Hence the importance of modularization!
2015-07-09T12:26:55Z theos: thats one of the reasons i dont like GPL and licenses in general
2015-07-09T12:27:33Z pjb: But notice the terms of the GPL in this case: you must provide the source of the derived work, and the build scripts and all the necessary files to recompile the sources and rebuild the binaries. This means, if you include a privative library, that you must provide the .a or .o containing it, needed to link the binaries.
2015-07-09T12:28:44Z pjb: It is fair: it allows users to modify the library and your derived work!
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2015-07-09T12:33:10Z pjb: H4ns: using gpl software to produce non-gpl software is not a failure of gpl. You have to understand, that the GPL is based 100% on the copyright law, and exploits it to the fullest. What happens here, is that the produced software is not a _derived_work_ of the tools used to create it, therefore copyright law doesn't apply, therefore gpl doesn't apply.
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2015-07-09T12:34:16Z pjb: Now of course, if you write a REPL program using clisp and save an executable image of it, you will have a hard time convincing anybody that your REPL is not a derived work of clisp, hence you will have to release it under GPL with your sources.
2015-07-09T12:34:21Z theos looks up what derived work means
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2015-07-09T12:38:14Z pjb: aeth: basically, lisp doesn't complicate things over C, per se, because what matter in all cases, is what judges determine is derived work or not. Technicalities such as how it's built or linked don't matter at all here.
2015-07-09T12:38:57Z pjb: aeth: In the old times, perhaps the difference was that you could get privative software written in C delivered as binary libraries, while lisp software would more often be distributed as sources (but then, lisp was more open source than C). But nowadays, apart from some firmware binary blobs, who still uses privative libraries?
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2015-07-09T14:13:21Z oleo: hello
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2015-07-09T14:33:28Z flip214: Is there some effort to keep http://paste.lisp.org/ spam-free?
2015-07-09T14:33:39Z flip214: *any
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2015-07-09T14:37:15Z Shinmera: There's been some talk about spam filters, but I don't know what happened to that
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2015-07-09T14:43:42Z flip214: okay... seems like it's being abused. thanks!
2015-07-09T14:44:28Z |3b|: yeah, it frequently is :/
2015-07-09T14:44:30Z Shinmera: I'm not sure who the best person is to talk to about this. I think stassats might be responsible?
2015-07-09T14:44:40Z Shinmera: Maybe ehu as well.
2015-07-09T14:44:59Z easye: Yes, ehu and stasstats are the ones to talk to.
2015-07-09T14:45:25Z pjb: Perhaps using a harder captcha would help?
2015-07-09T14:45:27Z easye: Last I heard (a month ago), they were looking at adding a Bayesian filtering system.
2015-07-09T14:45:59Z pjb: Just identifying duplicate/repeatitive pastes would help too.
2015-07-09T14:46:15Z pjb: Bayesian can be fooled with filler words.
2015-07-09T14:46:35Z flip214: well, simply restricting to lisp might help ;)
2015-07-09T14:46:45Z isoraqathedh: Or just code.
2015-07-09T14:46:52Z |3b|: lots of legitimate content is pretty random
2015-07-09T14:46:53Z dlowe: that will just force them to put their spam in comments
2015-07-09T14:46:58Z |3b|: build logs, asm dumps, etc
2015-07-09T14:47:14Z pjb: Yes, there is a lot of non purely lisp stuff.
2015-07-09T14:47:46Z H4ns: What's the problem with the spam?
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2015-07-09T14:48:11Z dlowe: H4ns: on lisppaste
2015-07-09T14:48:12Z oleo: non purely lisp, pffft, most of it is pron dude, wake up!
2015-07-09T14:48:40Z pjb: Well, actually the problem is that it's hard to find old pastes. The search engines don't work well enough (perhaps google is slow at indexing it). I've started writing a search engine for lisppaste with montezuma.
2015-07-09T14:48:42Z H4ns: dlowe: sure, but i don't see the issue. is it about hygiene? disk space? something i don't see?
2015-07-09T14:49:08Z easye: I thought Montezuma was dead.
2015-07-09T14:49:16Z pjb: H4ns: you could browse the list of paste, but nowadays you've got one good paste on page listing spam.
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2015-07-09T14:49:26Z pjb: easye: anything better?
2015-07-09T14:49:37Z easye: No, I was sad to see it go.
2015-07-09T14:49:49Z pjb: it's free software, it never dies or go.
2015-07-09T14:49:58Z easye: But dropped from Quicklisp, right?
2015-07-09T14:50:14Z pjb: I didn't notice.
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2015-07-09T14:50:28Z easye: No, it is still in Quicklisp.
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2015-07-09T14:50:33Z easye: My mistake.
2015-07-09T14:51:01Z pjb: So far, the problem I've found is that it's not thead safe, so I have to change the architecture of my stuff…
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2015-07-09T14:57:09Z schjetne: pjb: I use Elasticsearch, but my bindings are too hackish and need to be rewritten
2015-07-09T14:57:25Z pjb: No FFI.
2015-07-09T14:57:28Z schjetne: Also there's the downside of having to run a whole extra program
2015-07-09T14:57:43Z schjetne: Not FFI, just a REST client
2015-07-09T14:58:19Z schjetne: But I guess that's even worse than calling out to an FFI
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2015-07-09T15:00:00Z pjb: Also, sources of lisppaste are currently unavailable, that doesn't promote collaboration. is dead. ftp://common-lisp.net/pub/project/lisppaste/lisppaste2.3.tar.gz https://common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste/ doesn't indicate the new git repo, the obvious git clone http://common-lisp.net/projects/lisppaste/lisppaste.git is repository not found.
2015-07-09T15:00:31Z pjb: Some server have changed/migrated, and unfortunately, there's a lot of old web pages everywhere that would need updating…
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2015-07-09T15:05:38Z pjb: Ah, it's in git clone https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/lisppaste/new-bots.git
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2015-07-09T15:48:15Z jasom: If you added user accounts, then a much harder captcha could be used for anonymous pastes
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2015-07-09T15:50:11Z jasom: if the paste is really just for this channel, then you could require a nick registered with freenode, and at paste creation time say "pm lisppaste on freenode with this code: XXXX" or something
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2015-07-09T15:52:21Z Bike: in ancient times there was a lisppastebot, you could just have that again and check for +i.
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2015-07-09T15:58:27Z |3b|: it isn't just this channel
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2015-07-09T15:59:18Z |3b|: enough spam checking to re-enable the bots would be nice though
2015-07-09T16:01:35Z shka: any standard idea to manage unit tests with ql?
2015-07-09T16:01:49Z shka: i can create separate project
2015-07-09T16:01:58Z shka: but perhaps there is a better way
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2015-07-09T16:03:07Z pjb: shka: you can.
2015-07-09T16:03:25Z shka: ok
2015-07-09T16:03:29Z pjb: shka: I do have separate test systems for each of my systems, since for testing, I load different libraries and different files in addition to the tested system.
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2015-07-09T16:03:58Z shka: ok
2015-07-09T16:04:06Z pjb: Check the asd files in https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master
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2015-07-09T16:04:23Z shka: also, fiveAM is any good?
2015-07-09T16:05:04Z pjb: Perhaps. When I tried it it wasn't satisfactory, because I had to test end-to-end processing chains with different processes (and even, on different computers).
2015-07-09T16:05:05Z Bike: fiveam's aight
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2015-07-09T16:05:21Z pjb: But I assume for simple libraries, it might be good. in anycase, I have my own SIMPLE-TEST package.
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2015-07-09T16:06:49Z pjb: basically, in a defsystem :com.informatimago, I have this clause: :in-order-to ((asdf:test-op (asdf:test-op "com.informatimago.test"))), and in a .test.asd defsystem form, I have: #+asdf3 :perform #+asdf3 (asdf:test-op (operation system) #|call testing code|#).
2015-07-09T16:07:25Z pjb: But check the indirection, since the testing code is not loaded yet when loading the test system! https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.test.asd
2015-07-09T16:07:39Z shka: pjb: sadly, gpl
2015-07-09T16:07:53Z pjb: Go read ASDF manual then!
2015-07-09T16:08:04Z pjb: I'll watch you to check for derived work!
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2015-07-09T16:09:07Z shka: pjb: i want to go for either BSD or MIT license, i don't want to mess with gpl
2015-07-09T16:10:24Z pjb: Nonetheless, if you've been influenced by anything I've said here, you might be writing some derived work without knowing. I'll scrutinize your work! Call your lawyer.
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2015-07-09T16:11:34Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: knock it off
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2015-07-09T16:13:49Z shka: pjb: i don't know where are you going
2015-07-09T16:14:06Z shka: you picked gpl to limit use of your library
2015-07-09T16:14:14Z shka: now i won't use it
2015-07-09T16:14:23Z shka: so good for you
2015-07-09T16:14:32Z shka: why are you mocking me?
2015-07-09T16:14:44Z theos: are we still talking about licenses?
2015-07-09T16:14:56Z contrapunctus: theos: s/^/why /
2015-07-09T16:14:58Z Shinmera: The ride never ends
2015-07-09T16:15:34Z fe[nl]ix: y'all, it's off-topic so please stop
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2015-07-09T16:25:42Z eudoxia: i use fiveam for everything because... i don't know, actually. i think i read a blog post about it.
2015-07-09T16:25:56Z eudoxia: also travis ci for automatic testing
2015-07-09T16:26:38Z pjb: shka: I'm mocking you for your unjustified fears. Boo!
2015-07-09T16:27:12Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix
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2015-07-09T16:27:21Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: that's enough
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2015-07-09T16:28:18Z cheryllium: Anyone know why allegroserve might hang? I did (require :aserve) followed by (net.aserve:start :port 8000), going to localhost:8000 loads forever
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2015-07-09T16:28:43Z brpocock: Come, now, next thing we know you'll be waxing rhapsodic about Anna Kournikova, pjb :-/
2015-07-09T16:28:51Z eudoxia: cheryllium: any errors on the REPL side?
2015-07-09T16:28:56Z fe[nl]ix: brpocock: stop
2015-07-09T16:29:04Z oleo: fewww
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2015-07-09T16:29:15Z shka: also
2015-07-09T16:29:24Z cheryllium: eudoxia: No, unless I'm just dumb and don't know where to look. I'm not using slime or anything, just starting from the command line
2015-07-09T16:29:44Z shka: let's say i defined type of sorted array along with assertion to check if it is really sorted
2015-07-09T16:29:47Z eudoxia: cheryllium: well then no idea. why aserve though?
2015-07-09T16:30:02Z cheryllium: I'm looking for any lisp web server, aserve seemed like a good choice
2015-07-09T16:30:03Z shka: however, this assertion is checked only in my debug build
2015-07-09T16:30:14Z cheryllium: Is it not?
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2015-07-09T16:30:27Z Shinmera: cheryllium: It's not something people use as a first, usually.
2015-07-09T16:30:35Z cheryllium: Shinmera why is that?
2015-07-09T16:30:38Z eudoxia: cheryllium: http://clacklisp.org/ is what lisp web apps should be built on
2015-07-09T16:30:42Z shka: cheryllium: what are your needs?
2015-07-09T16:30:47Z Shinmera: Or at least around these parts, since we're mostly OSS oriented here.
2015-07-09T16:30:58Z akkad: if clack delivered properly on LW :P
2015-07-09T16:31:04Z fe[nl]ix: cheryllium: aserve has been practically unmaintained for years
2015-07-09T16:31:04Z shka: hunchentoot is actually not that terrible for certain use cases
2015-07-09T16:31:09Z Shinmera: cheryllium: Because hunchentoot is the 'de facto standard not-efficiency-focused' server
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2015-07-09T16:31:27Z eudoxia: yes hunchentoot is a good server, but you don't want to write an application that's bound to the server
2015-07-09T16:31:50Z eudoxia: i mean, unless you're extremely committed, clack is the more flexible choice, since you can use hunchentoot or any underlying server that's supported
2015-07-09T16:32:00Z Shinmera: You don't need to commit yourself to clack either. Writing a thin wrapper around hunchentoot is trivial and takes an hour at best.
2015-07-09T16:32:11Z akkad: hunchentoot or hunchentoot
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2015-07-09T16:32:15Z pjb: shka: assertions should remain in production. Try to write O(1) or at most O(n) assertions.
2015-07-09T16:32:29Z eudoxia: "write your own" isn't really good advice.
2015-07-09T16:32:39Z shka: pjb: i diseagree
2015-07-09T16:32:46Z Shinmera: eudoxia: ?
2015-07-09T16:32:46Z eudoxia: i mean there really is no way to reinvent the wheel when you have an extensively tested, battle-tested platform to work on
2015-07-09T16:32:52Z eudoxia: for this case, i mean
2015-07-09T16:33:06Z pjb: eudoxia: writing your own has the big advantage that when you come back a few years later for maintaince, the API of the libraries has not changed entirely!
2015-07-09T16:33:07Z cheryllium: I don't have huge needs, just looking for something to serve some static pages, some ORM would be nice... I was planning to write on top of a web server, just needed to find a good web server
2015-07-09T16:33:12Z shka: pjb: the problem is that i want to check basicly everything i can, but that would hurt performance
2015-07-09T16:33:14Z eudoxia: if we were talking about, idk, a weather api client, sure, write your own, whatever. but web development is hard and Clack solves a lot of problems.
2015-07-09T16:33:26Z pjb: eudoxia: I had to rewrite a hunchentoot app, because it completely changed how one uses it.
2015-07-09T16:33:35Z cheryllium: What are the downsides to using hunchentoot? I may look into that instead
2015-07-09T16:33:50Z Shinmera: cheryllium: It's not speed oriented, as I said.
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2015-07-09T16:34:03Z Shinmera: So you'll want to throw a cache in front of it
2015-07-09T16:34:09Z pjb: None, apart the fact that it may still change its API in the future, since it did in the past.
2015-07-09T16:34:10Z eudoxia: cheryllium: the downside is you're stuck with it. for instance, i just wrote an app where i used hunchentoot for dev, and Woo (a fast web server) for prod for extra performance.
2015-07-09T16:34:11Z pjb: I use it.
2015-07-09T16:34:13Z Shinmera: But other than that it works just fine according to what people report.
2015-07-09T16:34:26Z eudoxia: that would not have been possible had i written the app directly on Hunchentoot, but it is possible thanks to Clack
2015-07-09T16:34:26Z Shinmera: eudoxia: You aren't stuck with it if you're smart about it
2015-07-09T16:34:29Z pjb: cheryllium: in anycase, always clearly modularize your code!
2015-07-09T16:34:35Z eudoxia: cheryllium: consider http://eudoxia.me/lucerne/docs/example--a-twitter-clone.html
2015-07-09T16:34:42Z pjb: cheryllium: write your application independent of the webapp framework you use.
2015-07-09T16:34:51Z eudoxia: Shinmera: with Clack changing web servers is literally changing a keyword from :hunchentoot to :woo
2015-07-09T16:34:54Z cheryllium: pjb That is good advice!
2015-07-09T16:35:09Z Shinmera: eudoxia: But then you /are/ stuck with clack.
2015-07-09T16:35:11Z jasom: eudoxia: until you can't upgrade because clack changed its api...
2015-07-09T16:35:38Z eudoxia: well all my webapps went through the clack/lack update unscathed
2015-07-09T16:35:47Z eudoxia: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2015-07-09T16:36:10Z shka: clack is not that bad
2015-07-09T16:36:15Z jasom: eudoxia: I haven't yet figured out how to do the clack/lack update
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2015-07-09T16:36:31Z jasom: though I haven't looked to closely, since it's still listed as unstable
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2015-07-09T16:36:35Z eudoxia: jasom: ql:quickload :clack-v1-compat
2015-07-09T16:36:47Z pjb: To be sure you've modularized correctly, you can even provide two entirely different user interfaces on a give application. Eg. web interface, and ncurses interface, or web interface and mcclim interface, etc.
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2015-07-09T16:37:48Z cheryllium: Okay. I'm trying out clack now, it looks promising
2015-07-09T16:38:56Z cheryllium: And pjb thank you, that's good advice and I can see what you're saying now
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2015-07-09T16:39:53Z jasom: I use the REPL as my second interface; if I can't easily perform the basic operations of the webapp from the REPL, then something is wrong.
2015-07-09T16:40:17Z pjb: Definitely.
2015-07-09T16:40:46Z cheryllium: In that case I can start writing my application and even worry about the web interface later
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2015-07-09T16:40:59Z pjb: I once implemented subclasses of GUI (window, menu, button, etc), into play format/read-line stuff, to prototype it in the REPL.
2015-07-09T16:41:07Z pjb: s/play/plain/
2015-07-09T16:41:27Z pjb: cheryllium: that's definitely the right thing to do. Put the interface later on.
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2015-07-09T16:44:55Z shka: oh man, i'm already glad that i started to use unit tests
2015-07-09T16:50:07Z eudoxia: i remember the first unit tests i ran
2015-07-09T16:50:40Z eudoxia: i thought i'd write them like most folks, as an aftertought, but over time i've moved into a kind-of-TDD
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2015-07-09T16:52:17Z jasom: eudoxia: OIC there is a v1 compatibility layer for clack v2
2015-07-09T16:52:40Z eudoxia: yep
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2015-07-09T16:52:53Z jasom: eudoxia: any idea if lack is stable enough to be worth my while to port my backend to it?
2015-07-09T16:53:09Z eudoxia: i wouldn't write an app in clack itself
2015-07-09T16:53:18Z eudoxia: but any of the three web frameworks built on it is pretty stable
2015-07-09T16:53:45Z jasom: well I wrote an app in clack itself :)
2015-07-09T16:53:46Z eudoxia: i would suggest maybe porting it to ningle and see how you like it?
2015-07-09T16:56:17Z pjb: probably better advice would be given on #lispweb
2015-07-09T16:56:29Z pjb: or at least, more precise, about web frameworks.
2015-07-09T16:56:32Z eudoxia: oh i forgot about that channel
2015-07-09T16:57:15Z jasom: eudoxia: I like my router though
2015-07-09T16:57:57Z eudoxia: jasom: i use myway. but here's a thought: pluggable routers for clack web frameworks.
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2015-07-09T17:04:21Z jasom: I use optima to match on the clack environment, so the rules can be any valid optima rules
2015-07-09T17:05:01Z eudoxia: cool
2015-07-09T17:05:21Z jasom: If your router is pluggable, then what else does a microframework do?
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2015-07-09T17:06:22Z jasom: I guess session management
2015-07-09T17:06:35Z eudoxia: convenience stuff like defining views and mounting sub-applications
2015-07-09T17:06:37Z jasom: CSRF prevention
2015-07-09T17:06:47Z eudoxia: that's done by clack actually
2015-07-09T17:07:15Z jasom: I couldn't find good middleware documentation, so I wrote my own for those two
2015-07-09T17:07:44Z eudoxia: hmmm
2015-07-09T17:07:49Z eudoxia: i should update the docs
2015-07-09T17:08:04Z eudoxia: or, rather, write them using my doc generator
2015-07-09T17:08:38Z jasom: I wrote a single middleware for both session management and CSRF prevention, since they are closely coupled with the CSRF prevention technique I am using.
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2015-07-09T17:12:28Z synergy_: How does lisp work in regards to compilation and running a file? What are the steps I have to take to go from a .lisp file to a runnable program? Is this implementation specific?
2015-07-09T17:12:38Z eudoxia: synergy_: http://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/
2015-07-09T17:12:48Z jasom: allright, I'll update my mongrel2 handler to clackv2 tonight and see how well the v1 compat works with my application
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2015-07-09T17:14:48Z jasom: synergy_: It is implementation specific, though nearly all implementations allow you to make a standalone application
2015-07-09T17:15:29Z synergy_: So when is lisp code runnable, after it's compiled?
2015-07-09T17:15:42Z jasom: synergy_: lisp uses incremental compilation
2015-07-09T17:16:21Z |3b|: synergy_: most lisps can evaluate lisp code directly, possibly involving compilation to machine code in the process
2015-07-09T17:17:00Z jasom: synergy_: You typically (ASDF will do this for you) compile a lisp file to a "Fast loading file" or fasl. You can then load that file, and this changes the state of your image. Most implementations let you dump the image to disk, optionally as an executable file.
2015-07-09T17:17:05Z |3b|: lisp developers tend to just run things from the REPL rather than building a binary, though building binaries is usually available when needed (though may not imply compilation to machine code)
2015-07-09T17:17:15Z jasom: cl-launch will abstract all of this for you though.
2015-07-09T17:17:37Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Imo you should use ASDF's program-op to dump a binary nowadays
2015-07-09T17:17:53Z eudoxia: Shinmera: what does it do
2015-07-09T17:17:57Z jasom: Shinmera: is that widely implemented now?
2015-07-09T17:18:21Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Load your system, prepare it for dumping and restoring, dump it.
2015-07-09T17:18:33Z eudoxia: hmm
2015-07-09T17:18:33Z Shinmera: eudoxia: integrates nicely with the system definition too.
2015-07-09T17:18:36Z eudoxia: i should take a look at it
2015-07-09T17:18:50Z Shinmera: Eg https://github.com/Shinmera/halftone/blob/master/halftone.asd#L33
2015-07-09T17:19:09Z Shinmera: All that's left to do then is just `sbcl --eval '(asdf:operate :program-op :halftone)'`
2015-07-09T17:19:21Z Shinmera: (exchange qt-program-op for just program-op for your usual applications.
2015-07-09T17:19:23Z Shinmera: )
2015-07-09T17:19:35Z jasom: eudoxia: quick snippet from the docs: The program-op operation will create an executable program from the specified system and its dependencies. You can use UIOP for its pre-image-dump hooks, its post-image-restore hooks, and its access to command-line arguments. And you can specify an entry point my-app:main by specifying in your defsystem the option :entry-point "my-app:main".
2015-07-09T17:19:37Z eudoxia: hey, this dll-op thing is interesting
2015-07-09T17:19:46Z Shinmera: jasom: I'm not sure how widely it is, but it definitely works on SBCL and CCL at least.
2015-07-09T17:20:00Z jasom: Shinmera: I'm pretty sure it works on ecl
2015-07-09T17:20:20Z jasom: That's where I first used it, as making a standalone program on ecl without it is not pleasant
2015-07-09T17:20:52Z eudoxia: i'm putting the finishing touches on a library that -- pls forgive -- downloads buildapp shells out to it
2015-07-09T17:21:04Z eudoxia: maybe i should take a look at extending ASDF to do some of this stuff
2015-07-09T17:21:06Z eudoxia: hmm
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2015-07-09T17:24:50Z synergy_: So in the repl, I usually wouldn't run compiled code, just my .lisp files
2015-07-09T17:25:16Z synergy_: And once inside the repl, compilation would occur?
2015-07-09T17:25:28Z jasom: synergy_: sort-of
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2015-07-09T17:25:51Z jasom: synergy_: compilation and loading are separate steps
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2015-07-09T17:26:26Z jasom: synergy_: you can load a .lisp file, or load a FASL file (which is the output of compile-file)
2015-07-09T17:26:51Z synergy_: What occurs during the loading step?>
2015-07-09T17:26:54Z jasom: ASDF is a build tool that will manage compiling and loading for you though, and I suggest that for anything more than a one-off script you use ASDF
2015-07-09T17:27:25Z |3b|: synergy_: in some implementations, (almost) everything is compiled, even if you just typed it into the repl
2015-07-09T17:28:05Z jasom: synergy_: modifying your currently running image by executing the code in the file (whether it's .lisp or a compiled .lsip file)
2015-07-09T17:28:21Z jasom: synergy_: that last line should have ended "a compiled .lisp file)"
2015-07-09T17:29:05Z synergy_: And again a compiled .lisp file is a FASL file
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2015-07-09T17:29:42Z jasom: synergy_: right, though different implementations may use .fas .fasl etc. for the file extention
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2015-07-09T17:30:06Z jasom: synergy_: (compile-file "/path/to/a/lisp/file.lisp") to see how your implementation does it
2015-07-09T17:30:30Z jasom: (replacing the string with an actual path to a .lisp file, if that wasn't obvious)
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2015-07-09T17:31:53Z synergy_: Got ya
2015-07-09T17:32:01Z jasom: loading a file is *similar* to just typing each line from the file into a REPL, though there are some important differences that mostly exist to aid the compiler in optimization and to speed up compilation times
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2015-07-09T17:44:07Z Shinmera: Does anyone know why in the world an SBCL-dumped binary might eat up all possible CPU when launched as an .app on OS X, but works fine when the actual binary file itself is directly launched?
2015-07-09T17:45:19Z nyef: Shinmera: Oddly enough, a possibility comes to mind. What do you count as "directly launched"?
2015-07-09T17:45:29Z Shinmera: nyef: I double click the binary file.
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2015-07-09T17:45:55Z nyef: It's an environmental change, obviously.
2015-07-09T17:45:55Z oGMo: looking for nonexistent terminal io?
2015-07-09T17:46:07Z nyef: That'd be the first thing that comes to mind, yes.
2015-07-09T17:46:13Z Shinmera: oGMo: That would be my guess, but why would that eat up all CPU instead of just terminating
2015-07-09T17:46:30Z Shinmera: Also, how would I tell SBCL not to look for it
2015-07-09T17:46:32Z oGMo: Shinmera: rephrase.. _assuming_ terminal io which is nonexistent ;)
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2015-07-09T17:47:03Z Shinmera: oGMo: It's the most likely thing. When I directly launch it, a terminal pops up.
2015-07-09T17:47:09Z oGMo: you might tell it to use a main function instead of the repl, but i'm not sure
2015-07-09T17:47:12Z oGMo: Shinmera: oh, hrm
2015-07-09T17:47:14Z Shinmera: Which I obviously want to avoid with a GUI app
2015-07-09T17:47:33Z Shinmera: oGMo: It does use a custom main function
2015-07-09T17:47:46Z Shinmera: There's no READing being done from what I know of the code I have
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2015-07-09T17:47:52Z oGMo: oh, then no idea ;/
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2015-07-09T17:49:27Z nyef: http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/118598/macos-differences-between-running-a-bundled-app-and-running-the-bundles-execut is a possible angle to look at.
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2015-07-09T17:50:26Z Shinmera: Yeah, I do have a rudimentary Info.plist. I guess I'm missing some options that SBCL needs or something.
2015-07-09T17:50:30Z Shinmera: I'll dig around further.
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2015-07-09T17:51:55Z nyef: If there are no stdio streams open, then attempting to write to standard output would trigger an error, which... You know what? It might be trying to open the tty stream for query-io or something like that... Or trying to get into the debugger.
2015-07-09T17:52:49Z Shinmera: Right. Probably infinitely looping on trying to present the error and opening a debugger or something
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2015-07-09T17:53:21Z Shinmera: Though the debugger is disabled, so probably more along the lines of just printing the error
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2015-07-09T17:58:44Z ofosos: hi, anyone know how usockets policy toward additions to the api is? I want read timeouts and would consider implementing them on 3-4 linux/opensource lisps. Does there have to be support for all platforms to accept a feature?
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2015-07-09T17:59:26Z cheryllium: does anyone here have experience with postmodern?
2015-07-09T18:00:16Z brpocock: some… yes…
2015-07-09T18:00:37Z cheryllium: I read somewhere that deftable is deprecated, do you know if that is true?
2015-07-09T18:01:07Z brpocock: oh, I have not touched the ORM bits at all, sorry.
2015-07-09T18:01:17Z cheryllium: ah okay that's okay.
2015-07-09T18:01:30Z H4ns: deftable is not about orm, it is just a ddl syntax
2015-07-09T18:01:56Z H4ns: cheryllium: and it will not go away, so just use it.
2015-07-09T18:02:03Z brpocock: however, http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/index.html is authoritative, and says no such thing.
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2015-07-09T18:02:29Z cheryllium: okay thank you. in that case, could somebody give me an example on how to use it? I am confused by the description
2015-07-09T18:03:22Z cheryllium: Ah nmvd, just found this excellent resource. https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/postmodern-examples/postmodern-table-management#create-with-deftable
2015-07-09T18:07:31Z reb``: ofosos: You should contact the usockets maintainers. If I remember correctly, not all features are supported by every Lisp/OS combination. I would be surprised if read timeouts are currently totally unsupported.
2015-07-09T18:07:45Z jasom: Shinmera: FYI the environment for a .app file is *very* minimal. If you want a .app you're probably better off with ccl
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2015-07-09T18:16:47Z cryptopsy: can i get automatic management of () brackets in vim so i don't have to manual type and align them myself?
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2015-07-09T18:18:20Z williamyao: cryptopsy: https://github.com/vim-scripts/paredit.vim
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2015-07-09T18:24:59Z jasom: cryptopsy: also ":set lisp" will get you better lisp indentation
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2015-07-09T18:30:58Z synergy_: There's also delimitMate for tag pairing in general
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2015-07-09T18:32:23Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for loke: I've fixed %invoke in both cffi and iolib and made pull requests to maintainers - it may take a while tough before they'll wrap new release, so I'd use git versions in local-projects for time being. cl-rabbit loads here fine now
2015-07-09T18:32:23Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell loke when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-07-09T18:33:07Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for loke: if it's not merged yet in github, check pull requests tab
2015-07-09T18:33:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell loke when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-07-09T18:33:34Z jackdaniel: I'd suggest to use°
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2015-07-09T18:45:27Z Shinmera: Argh. Not only are stdout/stderr not bound to anything anymore since mountain lion, it's now also complaining about using Pixmaps outside the main thread, even though I'm /not/ using pixmaps, I'm using QImages, which /should/ be thread safe.
2015-07-09T18:45:44Z Shinmera: The latter error appears when I try to use a CCL-dumped binary.
2015-07-09T18:45:54Z Shinmera: SBCL runs fine from the command line at least.
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2015-07-09T18:50:20Z jasom: I got an SBCL app to run in a .app container by generating an automater .app that would setup a sane enviornment and launch an executable
2015-07-09T18:50:36Z Shinmera: jasom: Ah-- thanks. I'll give that a shot
2015-07-09T18:50:39Z jasom: but you end up with the automator logo in your docker
2015-07-09T18:50:53Z Shinmera: I'm pretty sure I can change that
2015-07-09T18:50:53Z jasom: Shinmera: I can send you the .app if you want
2015-07-09T18:50:59Z Shinmera: That'd be great!
2015-07-09T18:51:46Z Shinmera: Oh, and I forgot to mention that, immediately following the pixmap warning on CCL, the entire thing crashes due to an unhandled ffi error.
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2015-07-09T18:53:39Z Bike: with cl-opengl i'm getting my old friend: error nesting depth exceeded. yaaaaay ffi somethings.
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2015-07-09T19:01:14Z synergy_: I have a function that adds elements to a list. I tested it out with a dummy entry and it worked. After recompiling, why did the variable still have its dummy contents that I had added?
2015-07-09T19:01:27Z synergy_: The list was made with defvar
2015-07-09T19:01:34Z cheryllium: Does anyone know how to select all rows using postmodern? I have tried :select :all, and 'all and *...
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2015-07-09T19:01:55Z Xach: synergy_: defvar only initializes a variable if it is not already bound
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2015-07-09T19:02:08Z |3b|: cheryllium: '* rather than * maybe?
2015-07-09T19:02:09Z jackdaniel: ynchromeshs: use defparameter if you want to change
2015-07-09T19:02:14Z jackdaniel: synergy_: °
2015-07-09T19:02:49Z cheryllium: |3b|: That was it!!! Thank you!!
2015-07-09T19:03:05Z synergy_: Xach, but why wouldn't recompiling completely reset the variable?
2015-07-09T19:03:27Z Xach: synergy_: because that is not how common lisp works. if you quit and restart it will start fresh, though.
2015-07-09T19:03:43Z jackdaniel: synergy_: it's not a bug, it's a feature - you have defparameter for the second behaviour
2015-07-09T19:03:47Z |3b|: the point of DEFVAR is to not change it
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2015-07-09T19:04:19Z synergy_: So is there some sort of background process that keeps state when I start common lisp?
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2015-07-09T19:04:35Z |3b|: it is a foreground process... the lisp you started
2015-07-09T19:04:38Z jackdaniel: synergy_: recompiling some stuff isn't the same as restarting lisp process
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2015-07-09T19:05:12Z synergy_: |3b|, oh I see
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2015-07-09T19:05:39Z |3b|: you start a lisp, then interact with it through the repl, sort of like interacting with bash or whatever at a shell prompt
2015-07-09T19:05:49Z |3b|: (except with a nicer language and better compiler :)
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2015-07-09T19:06:13Z synergy_: So compilation isn't tied to the state that the lisp process keeps
2015-07-09T19:06:24Z |3b|: it might not be the best model for some things, but at this point the language is standardized and we can't really change it
2015-07-09T19:06:32Z dim: after another day solving customer problems in lisp, I can tell you how much I appreciate the tooling ;-)
2015-07-09T19:06:34Z jackdaniel: synergy_: if you use emacs, you can use M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp
2015-07-09T19:06:38Z |3b|: compilation is just a function you can call
2015-07-09T19:06:47Z jackdaniel: to restart lisp process
2015-07-09T19:06:56Z synergy_: Alright, I understand
2015-07-09T19:06:59Z dim: jackdaniel: ,restart-inferior-lisp is what I use
2015-07-09T19:07:02Z |3b|: the state includes things like functions you have defined (compiled or not), variables, etc
2015-07-09T19:07:25Z dim: basically I only type ,r because it remembers what I did last time ;-)
2015-07-09T19:07:31Z |3b|: so CL is defined in terms of making changes to that state, rather than a monolithic "compilation" process like you might have in C
2015-07-09T19:07:47Z jackdaniel: dim: thanks, is really more handy (/me will switch :p)
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2015-07-09T19:08:33Z |3b|: a lot of that dates back to the lisp machines, where you were always running the lisp, because that is all there was
2015-07-09T19:08:50Z synergy_: So let's say I had a function that I compile, then I edit the function and recompile, the function definition is replaced correct? And would that be because functions are initialized each time you compile?
2015-07-09T19:09:09Z |3b|: the DEFUN macro replaces the previous definition when it is evaluated
2015-07-09T19:09:18Z |3b|: independent of compilation
2015-07-09T19:09:56Z |3b|: (along with some other things specific to compilation, mostly to allow other things being compiled to know about the function even if it hasn't actually been loaded yet)
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2015-07-09T19:10:42Z |3b|: if you compile a file containing a defun, that probably doesn't change any existing definition of that function. if you load the result of that compilation, /then/ the new definition takes effect
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2015-07-09T19:11:31Z |3b|: the CL model takes a while to get used to if you are used to c-like languages, but it is much nicer for interactive development
2015-07-09T19:12:01Z |3b|: the edit-compile-run cycle happens at single function level, making iteration much faster
2015-07-09T19:12:55Z |3b|: (and to be more precise, i mean "used to the common implementations of c-like languages", since the language itself doesn't actually require the interaction model imposed by the usual tools)
2015-07-09T19:13:01Z nyef: I hear that some C environments allow an edit-compile-run cycle on the single-function level that affects a running program...
2015-07-09T19:14:09Z synergy_: Ok, so the loading stage is where I should expect state changes to occur to a program?
2015-07-09T19:14:10Z brpocock: Eclipse does so for Java, but I've only seen ugly hacks to allow such things in C (due to C using a edit-compile-LINK-load cycle)
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2015-07-09T19:15:04Z |3b|: right, think of LOADing as evaluating each form in your file one after the other
2015-07-09T19:15:36Z |3b|: DEFVAR forms make sure a variable exists, and optionally initialize it if not. DEFUN forms create(or redefine) functions, etc
2015-07-09T19:16:23Z |3b|: FORMAT forms at the top level print things when the file is loaded, and similarly for anything else you do with side effects
2015-07-09T19:16:33Z |3b|: the side effects happen when the file is loaded
2015-07-09T19:16:55Z |3b|: (you can also arrange for side effects to happen at compile time if required)
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2015-07-09T19:18:21Z aeth: What's better Lisp style? (* -1 x y) or (* (- x) y)
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2015-07-09T19:20:12Z Xach: I think I would understand (- (* x y)) better.
2015-07-09T19:20:27Z Xach: YMMV
2015-07-09T19:20:28Z |3b| would consider any of them OK depending on context
2015-07-09T19:20:57Z aeth: Xach: ah
2015-07-09T19:21:06Z cpopell3 finished SICP 1.1 last night
2015-07-09T19:21:08Z cpopell3: baby steps.
2015-07-09T19:21:17Z cpopell3: doing it on paper, mostly
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2015-07-09T19:22:31Z aeth: I was just thinking about exponential decay in Lisp, and Wikipedia says the formula is N_o * e ^ -(λt)
2015-07-09T19:22:51Z |3b|: if transcribing some equation where negating X or Y has a specific meaning, negating it directly in CL is probably better. if you just want the whole thing negated, probably Xach's version.
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2015-07-09T19:23:03Z oleo: aeth: good joke
2015-07-09T19:23:34Z Bike: decay constant's lambda but time constants are tau.
2015-07-09T19:23:38Z aeth: I guess in context (- (* )) makes more sense
2015-07-09T19:23:55Z |3b|: yeah, for that -1 would be better than negating one of the terms, but keeping it around the whole thing would be best
2015-07-09T19:23:59Z Bike: also seconding (- (* foo bar)).
2015-07-09T19:24:15Z Bike: thirding? nthing
2015-07-09T19:24:46Z |3b| can't think of many reasons for a constant -1, possibly to contrast with similar forms with other constants
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2015-07-09T19:26:31Z Bike: it does get kind of weird when it gets long. i have a file with (/ (1+ (exp (/ vhalf v) slope)))
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2015-07-09T19:27:12Z jackdaniel: Bike: incfing ;)
2015-07-09T19:27:48Z aeth: I always comment formulae in Lisp with some ASCII approximation of the original in infix above if it's not immediately obvious which one it is.
2015-07-09T19:27:54Z oleo: that's why you use prefix to suffix converters.....
2015-07-09T19:27:58Z oleo: and vice versa....
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2015-07-09T20:18:00Z aeth: Afaik, the way Quicklisp works is that you (ql:quickload :foo) and foo loads all of its dependencies. If :bar depends on foo you would (ql:quickload :bar) and run (bar:baz) in the SLIME REPL.
2015-07-09T20:18:26Z aeth: But what if bar depends on foo in the sense that foo is an application (e.g. an emacs) and bar is a plugin to that application (e.g. a script that handles git or something)?
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2015-07-09T20:19:10Z Bike: that's all asdf, not quicklisp, really
2015-07-09T20:19:14Z aeth: Is there a way in ASDF and/or Quicklisp to express this type of relationship or would the program have to manually load in the .lisp files?
2015-07-09T20:19:26Z Bike: i think the stumpwm people were doing something there
2015-07-09T20:19:52Z Bike: but i think it'll take some... arrangements... it's not built into asdf but asdf is pretty extendable
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2015-07-09T20:33:19Z PuercoPop: you can use before and after methods
2015-07-09T20:34:08Z PuercoPop: I use them to load wookie's plugin before loading my system, see: http://wookie.lyonbros.com/faq
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2015-07-09T20:36:24Z pjb: aeth: you would have to subclass various classes of asdf to express it.
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2015-07-09T20:40:21Z Shinmera: Argh, looks like I need to bundle even more garbage with a .app to make it work since Qt needs additional libraries to link against that aren't on a standard OS X system.
2015-07-09T20:41:12Z aeth: pjb: hmm, so this is a needed library, then? OK.
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2015-07-09T20:41:49Z nyef: Shinmera: You're starting to get me seriously thinking about repaving my next OSX box with Linux as soon as I get it. /-:
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2015-07-09T20:42:27Z Shinmera: nyef: Things are "aight" as a dev if you get ports working and muck about with all the keyboard garbage to get it to work how it does everywhere else
2015-07-09T20:42:27Z aeth: What's interesting is that an emacs in Common Lisp would probably be scripted in a very different way than GNU Emacs because of CLOS afaik.
2015-07-09T20:42:47Z Shinmera: nyef: But, well, for deploying applications, a lot of stuff still has to be done.
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2015-07-09T20:43:21Z aeth: nyef: The problem looks like a problem with Qt not a problem with Lisp itself. So afaik the actual problem is that Lisp currently depends on too much C and C++.
2015-07-09T20:43:24Z Shinmera: For most developers it gets automatically taken care of by Xcode and similar, I assume. Since we're not in that boat, someone has to do that grunt work.
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2015-07-09T20:45:26Z nyef: Heh. Keyboard. "What's the Meta key in this VM again? It's either Option or Command..."
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2015-07-09T20:46:42Z |3b|: esc :p
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2015-07-09T20:48:50Z aeth: The META key is the one just to the left of CTRL and to the right of SUPER and HYPER. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg
2015-07-09T20:49:54Z aeth: Also, apparently curly braces are so evil that they must be put far away in a non-standard spot and the normal {} keys should be ()
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2015-07-09T20:50:41Z nyef: |3b|: Well, I'm more looking for things like the M-tab window switcher thing.
2015-07-09T20:50:57Z pjb: aeth: try Hemlock.
2015-07-09T20:51:36Z dlowe: Heh. That keyboard predates curly brace standardization
2015-07-09T20:52:20Z aeth: dlowe: sort of like how the Star Wars prequels predate the empire. :-P
2015-07-09T20:53:00Z aeth: I just want to know how people in the 1990s decided to standardize behind C++ (or Java) and XML.
2015-07-09T20:54:09Z dlowe: C++ seemed neat at the time, and XML was a huge improvement in the business world over the zillions of custom formats that came before
2015-07-09T20:54:16Z dlowe: anyway, off topic.
2015-07-09T20:54:27Z dlowe: bringing it around to lisp, actually
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2015-07-09T20:54:54Z pjb: aeth: Sun put a lot of money on Java and XML.
2015-07-09T20:54:56Z aeth: I guess historical Lisp is off-topic, but I was just wondering why something with syntax like Lisp lost out. Maybe bad editors or something (no paredit?)
2015-07-09T20:55:07Z dlowe: decent lisp compilers were hard to come by in the early nineties
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2015-07-09T20:55:17Z pjb: aeth: then Sun went broke, and Oracle bought them, and Oracle puts a lot of money on Java and XML.
2015-07-09T20:55:19Z aeth: Because s-expressions seem roughly equivalent to XML, but a lot less verbose and a lot more powerful.
2015-07-09T20:55:28Z dlowe: but yeah, Java had a huge amount of cash pushing it
2015-07-09T20:55:44Z dlowe: XML has a lot more than people give it credit for
2015-07-09T20:55:53Z dlowe: Not all of it is on the side of Good
2015-07-09T20:55:56Z pjb: aeth: so you know what you need to do: start a company, become the #1 selling some kind of hardware, be worth trillions, spend those trillions on promoting lisp and sexps.
2015-07-09T20:56:01Z dlowe: but it's not just fancy s-exprs
2015-07-09T20:56:02Z aeth: You can even store (quoted) code in your .sexp data format because code's just a list. Maybe s-expressions are too powerful. 90s viruses could've been terrible with Lisp.
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2015-07-09T20:58:21Z pjb: Happily, we're not in the 90s anymore, 10s viruses wouldn't know what to do with lisp
2015-07-09T20:59:19Z nyef: Are we going to have another "Roaring '20s"?
2015-07-09T21:00:37Z Shinmera is beyond glad he bothered to make his library copying and fix-up system flexible enough to make it trivial to include some further dependencies.
2015-07-09T21:02:30Z aeth: XML has schemas but afaik s-expressions could also have schemas.
2015-07-09T21:02:53Z aeth: I think the reason people hate XML is the terrible syntax that seemingly has multiple ways to do the same thing.
2015-07-09T21:02:58Z aeth: (Also the verbosity.)
2015-07-09T21:04:11Z aeth: dlowe: Technically speaking, though, I think everything on a computer can be expressed as fancy s-expressions afaik, although some things map more easily than others.
2015-07-09T21:05:35Z aeth: pjb: but if Lisp ever took off 20s viruses would probably be quite effective against Lisp because people right now are relying on security by obscurity afaik
2015-07-09T21:05:45Z nyef: aeth: Everything on a computer can be expressed as a sequence of ones and zeros. A sequence of ones and zeros can be expressed as an s-expression. QED.
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2015-07-09T21:06:48Z aeth: nyef: exactly. #b101010
2015-07-09T21:06:57Z aeth: Lisp is very expressive.
2015-07-09T21:07:11Z nyef: ... 74?
2015-07-09T21:07:32Z nyef: Oh. No, 42.
2015-07-09T21:07:33Z aeth: 42
2015-07-09T21:07:42Z aeth: This is the internet, everything has to be a nerdy reference.
2015-07-09T21:07:58Z aeth: It is sad that I actually know 101010 is 42.
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2015-07-09T21:14:43Z mlrutherford: Has anyone here tried Shen now that it is BSD-licensed?
2015-07-09T21:16:04Z aeth: oh wow its website actually uses